Podcast appearances and mentions of sarah yes

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I do a coaching call with Joanna who has a 2-year-old and a 7-year-old. We cover how to make mindset shifts so you can better show up for your kids, as well as get into specifics around night weaning, bedtime battles, handling meltdowns, playful parenting and increasing our connection to our kids.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:40 how to manage meltdowns* 9:00 Night weaning and bedtime challenges* 20:00 Emptying a full emotional backpack* 26:00 Kids who always want more attention* 28:00 Understanding blame and anger* 38:00 Games to play when a child is looking for more power* 44:00 How our mindset makes such a big difference when parenting* 47:30 Two keys to peaceful parenting!* 55:00 Playful approaches to bedtimeResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* How to Help Our Little Ones Sleep with Kim Hawley * Episode 100: When Your Child Has a Preferred Parent (or Not) with Sarah and Corey * Episode 103: Playful Parenting with Lawrence Cohen * Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski: Episode 186 xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! 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No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today's episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Joanna, mom of a 7-year-old and a 2-year-old. Joanna's 7-year-old is an intense child, and she wanted to know how to handle her big feelings and find more connection with her.She also had some specific challenges around bedtime, namely that her partner works shift work and is not home at bedtime. She still breastfeeds her 2-year-old to sleep, so is unavailable to her seven-year-old for a bit, and then has trouble getting her seven-year-old to bed without a fight. Joanna also shared how low she was on resources, and we had a great discussion about how that impacts her parenting and what she might do about it.Also, meltdowns—we talked about those too and how to respond. I know Joanne is not alone. One note: after we did the follow-up call, I realized I forgot to ask her about a few things. So she kindly recorded a couple of P.S.'s that I'll include. If you're curious, like I am, you'll be glad she gave us the latest updates.If you would like to come on the podcast and be coached by me, I am looking for a few parents who are interested. You can email me at sarah@sarahrosensweet.com.As always, please give us a five-star rating and a review on your favorite podcast app, and if you know another parent or caregiver that this would be helpful for, please screenshot it and send it to them. The best way to reach more families with peaceful parenting is through word of mouth, so we really appreciate any shares that you might be able to give us.Okay. Let's meet Joanna. Okay.Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome to the podcast.Joanna: Hi. Thanks for having me.Sarah: Tell me a little bit about yourself.Joanna: Sure. I live up in Ottawa, Canada, with my husband and my two kids. I'm a music therapist, so right now I'm working with babies. I teach Yoga with Baby and, um, a class called Sing and Sign at a local wellness center.Sarah: Nice. How old are—Joanna: Yes, I have a 7-year-old girl who we'll call Jay.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: And then a 2-year-old boy called JR.Sarah: JJ. Okay, perfect. Okay, so how can I support you today?Joanna: Yeah, so my daughter has always been, like, a bit of a tricky one. Um. She was born premature, so at 29 weeks. And no kind of lasting effects. But as she's gotten older, we've noticed, like, she's really struggled a lot with emotional regulation. Um, and she kind of gets stuck on certain behaviors. So I feel like we've done a lot to change our parenting, in part thanks to you and your podcast and all the material. Um, I did finally read, um, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids this past summer.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And I feel like it also had a huge effect, just having, like, that bigger scope of understanding of, like, the peaceful parenting philosophy.Sarah: Uh-huh.Joanna: So I would say, like, even from where we were a few months ago, we've experienced tons of positive shifts with her.Sarah: Sweet.Joanna: Yeah, so we're already kind of well on our way, but there are certain behaviors that she has that still I find really perplexing. So I wondered if maybe we could go over a couple of them.Sarah: Sure. Yeah, no problem. For anyone—if, for anyone who doesn't know, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids is the book written by my mentor, who I trained with, Dr. Laura Markham. Um, and just for my own curiosity, what do you think? Because, you know, I always worry that people are—that they don't have the fully formed idea of peaceful parenting. And that—and I'm not saying you, because you've listened to the podcast so you probably have a deeper understanding—but some people are just getting their little snippets on Instagram reels, you know, and so it is hard to understand, like, the, the sort of the core reasons why we do the approach if you don't have that deeper understanding. And also, I'm working on a book right now, so hopefully soon you'll be able to say you read my book. But what did you—what do you feel like got fleshed out for you when you read that book?Joanna: I think she really breaks a lot of things down step by step, such as, like, what to do when your child is going through a meltdown.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And that has always been an area—like, when my daughter gets to that point where she's, like, become really explosive and aggressive and she's just, like, in it and she's kind of unreachable at that moment—like, what to do step by step at that time. I think, like, that's been the most helpful because I've been able to really settle into my own parenting and just, like, really trust myself and anchor in at that point, which is exactly really what she needs and what was missing.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.Joanna: So—Sarah: So I think, um—like I always say, focus on regulating yourself first. Like, when someone's having a meltdown, empathize.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Um, you know, it—yeah, it's—it can be hard because you often feel like you need to do something. And even though you're saying step by step, it's less about doing anything than just centering yourself, staying calm yourself, trying to get in touch with the compassion and empathy even if you're not—some pe—some parents say, “Oh, well, when I try to say anything, then my kid just screams more.” So sometimes it's just empathize—like, getting connected in your own heart to the empathy and compassion, even if you're not saying anything—and that, that does something.Joanna: Absolutely it does. Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Yeah, so that's all been really helpful. Now, in—in terms of emotional regulation, I do definitely think that that's the biggest piece.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: Uh, it's been the biggest piece for me and sort of, like, one of the big things that I wanted to talk to you about today is we are still really not getting sleep because my 2-year-old is not a good sleeper and has never been a good sleeper. And we've gone through periods where I'm like, okay, now he's only waking up, like, twice a night, and that feels manageable. Um, but he's kind of been back to waking up, like, three to six times a night again, which is so hard. And then my husband's very supportive; however, he works afternoons, so he's gone from about 3:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so he needs to be able to sleep until about eight, which means I'm up with my son between six and seven. My daughter gets up for school around 7:30, so that's, like, a tricky time of day because she's really quite grumpy in the morning. He's not—the toddler's really, like, kind of a totally different temperament. But, like, I'm tired after struggling with, like, night wakings all night. And then I'm with the kids from the time that she gets home from school, um, and then doing both bedtimes myself.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Um, so there's a lot of time where, like, I am solo parenting, and I'm definitely, like, the preferred parent. Um, and both my kids really want me and need me at bedtime. So he is still nursing—like, I'm nursing to sleep and then nursing during the night. And I know that that's probably contributing a lot to all the night wakings. So, I guess my question is, like, I am at the point where I am ready to night-wean. I probably should have done it already, but—Sarah: Don't say “should have.” Like, it's—if you're not ready to make that change, like, in your heart, it's really torturous to try to—try to, like, not—so say you decide you want to night-wean, but you weren't really ready to do it. It would be so painful for you to deny your son nursing in the night if you were—if you didn't feel in your heart, like, “No, this is the right thing to do. I'm totally ready. I think he's ready.” So, so I think waiting until you're really, like, actually, yes, “I'm done with this,” is a smart thing. Yeah. So don't beat yourself up for not having done it already. But you're right, it probably does contribute to him waking up in the night.Joanna: Yeah. And, um, I do feel like I—I'm ready. I just—I'm not quite sure how to make that shift. So what generally happens is, like, we have some, like, virtual babysitting going on with my mom, where, like, when I nurse my son to sleep, which generally takes, like, between maybe 30 and 45 minutes, she'll, like, sit with her and do a workbook. So we'll have, like, a video chat, and then after—Sarah: Yeah, it's great.Joanna: So then after, um, I'm with her to get her ready for bed, and that oftentimes looks like a lot of, like, dragging heels on, like, “Oh, I want another snack,” and “I wanna, like, brush my teeth,” and “Whatever—don't wanna brush my teeth.” So, um, then that ends up taking usually about an hour, but we both sort of have, like, this expiration at about 9:00 PM, where, like, she just gets so dysregulated because she's so tired.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: So if I don't have her in bed at that point and, like, already kind of with the lights out, there's often just, like, a meltdown and some—like, she'll start calling me names and start, like, you know, throwing stuff down at me and whatnot. And then I'm just really tired by that point too. Yeah. So we can kind of joke around about it now—like, nine o'clock is the time where we're, like, where we both expire. So I'm trying to figure out, like, how can I night-wean? Because I know that that is supposed to start with, like, him being able to fall asleep by himself at the beginning of the night, so—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Slowly phasing that out and laying with him. I know it's gonna probably take a lot longer in the beginning, so I'm just a little worried that, like, maybe if it takes, like, an hour, an hour and a half, then all of a sudden she's kind of, like, left hanging and it's getting later and her bedtime's being pushed back.Sarah: Are there any—are there any nights that your partner is home at bedtime?Joanna: There's two—Sarah: nights that—Joanna: he—Sarah: is,Joanna: yeah.Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start with those nights.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah. Start with those nights. And—and when was your son's birthday? Like, like how—two—is he—Joanna: He just turned two, like, two weeks ago.Sarah: Okay. So, I mean, I think I would start with trying to just practice, you know, nursing him and maybe nursing him somewhere else and then bringing him back, you know, and then putting him in—are you co-sleeping?Joanna: Sleep—yeah. Well, I put him—like, I generally nurse him to sleep. He has a floor bed in his room, and then I go to bed in my own room, and then at his first wake, then I go back in, and I just stay there for the room—the rest of the night from that point.Sarah: Right, right. So I, I guess I would try just, like, nursing him and trying to, like, pat his back and sing to him and, you know, tell him that—that he can have—I, I mean, what we did was, “You can have milk in the morning,” you know, “You could have it when it's light.” I remember my oldest son—when he—it took him a couple of days—and if you wanna hear the whole story of my failed night-weaning with my second son, it was in a podcast that we did about infant and toddler sleep, uh, with Kim.Joanna: Yeah, Kim?Sarah: Yes. So you could listen to that if you haven't heard that already. But my second—my first son was super easy to night-wean, and a couple of—it was, like, a couple of nights of a little bit of crying, and he would just say, “Make it light, Mama. Make it light,” because he wanted—I said, “You can nurse when it's light.” But, you know, I, I, I don't wanna get into that whole big thing on this podcast because—mm-hmm—just because I've already talked about it. But if you wanna listen to that, and if you have any questions when we do our follow-up, you can, uh, you can ask me. But, you know, I would just try, you know, talking to him about, then, you know, “You can have Milky in the morning,” or whatever you call it, and, you know, those two—see how it goes for those two nights where your partner's around. And if it doesn't—I would say, if it still seems really hard, maybe just waiting to do it until—I don't know if you have any other support you could enlist. You mentioned your mother—maybe she could come and visit, you know, because I do think it would be hard to try and do this and do the solo bedtimes for a while. So I don't know if there's a time when your mom could come visit or if there's some other support that you could have. But yeah—Joanna: I think the tricky part with that is that, like, she—even with my husband—like, she doesn't want him to put her to bed.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And depending on the kind of night that she's having, sometimes she'll end up, like, screaming, and their bedrooms are right beside each other. So we've had it before where, like, she'll start having a meltdown and, like, wake him up, and then he's not able to fall asleep either. And then we—Sarah: There's also—your husband could be with your son.Joanna: It's the same—same situation though. Like, he doesn't—him—Sarah: It sounds—it sounds like possibly—I mean, there—kids do have preferred parents even when, um, they do have good connection with the—with the other parent. And you could maybe still work—have some—that be something that you're working on, having your partner, you know, maybe even practicing having—before you start doing the night-weaning—practicing having your partner doing some of the bedtime stuff. When you are—when, you know, when—before you're starting to make a change so that your son doesn't associate, you know, “I'm not getting what I want,” and my dad, you know, putting me to sleep.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: So I would maybe try to get your partner a little bit more involved in bedtime before making a change. And—and even if there's some crying—we also have a podcast about preferred parents that you could listen to. So I—you know, I think maybe you do have a little bit of pre-work to do before you start doing the night-weaning, and, in terms of when—how can you get support at bedtime?Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: I mean, the other option is if you just kick it down the road more and—or, you know, there isn't—there's actually a third option now that I think about it—it's that you still nurse him to sleep but then don't nurse him when you wake him up—when he wakes up in the night. Get him to go back to sleep without that.Sarah: I hadn't thought about that, because I think that everything that I've heard has been, like, they have to fall asleep on their own because then they're always gonna be—Joanna: looking—Sarah: for—Joanna: Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: But I mean, you could still try it.Joanna: Hmm. Okay.Sarah: Or you could try shortening the—you know, give him a little bit of milk and then see if he'll go to sleep, um, after he has a little bit, but without nursing to sleep.Joanna: Okay. Yeah. Okay, I'll give that some thought and try some different things there.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Okay. Thank you. But yeah, I feel like just starting to get sleep again is pretty important. So, even in terms of, like, being able to center myself to handle all of the things that goes on with my daughter during the day, that feels like a really important piece right now.Sarah: For sure. And if she's—if she's some nights not going—it sounds like quite frequently maybe she's not asleep before nine.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: And what time does she wake up?Joanna: 7:30.Sarah: 7:30. So do you think she's getting enough sleep?Joanna: Probably not. She's really lethargic in the morning.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: But I can't really seem to figure out how to be able to get her to sleep. Like, I did talk to her about it, and she was like, “Well, maybe when I turn eight, like, I can start putting myself to bed.” And I was like, “Okay, well what—what would that look like?” And she kind of went through, like, “Okay, I'll, you know, I'll brush my teeth on the phone with Grandma, and then I'll just, like, read in bed.” And—but this is, like, in a moment where she's feeling very regulated.Sarah: Right, right, right. And when's her birthday?Joanna: Uh, in about two months.Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Um, have you had a conversation with her about how neither of you likes the fighting at night? And, you know—and does she have any, like—not in the moment, but does she have any ideas of, you know, how you can solve the problem of her not, you know, not wanting to go to bed and then getting too tired and then getting really cranky?Joanna: Yeah, we have—we have talked about it, and we can talk about it with, like, a little bit more levity now, but I don't think that she's actually—we've gone to, like, the problem-solving—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: of that.Sarah: I mean, that might be a helpful conversation to have with her and just say, “You know, I've been thinking about what often happens at night, you know, and I totally get it, that you don't wanna go to bed. Like, you know, when I was a kid, I never wanted to go to bed, and I would've stayed up all night if I could. And I'm sure you're the same because it's just—you know, when you're young, going to bed is, like, you know, not any fun at all.” And you can make—you could even make a joke, like, “When you're old like me, like, you can't wait to go to bed.” But of course when you're young, you don't wanna go to sleep, and I totally get that. So, like, lots of empathy and acknowledging, like, her perspective. And—and then you could say, “And at the same time, you know, you do—you know, why do you think it's important to sleep?” So I guess you could have that conversation with her too about, like, you know, what happens when we're sleeping that—your, you know, you could talk about how your cells, like, fix themselves. Also we grow when we're sleeping—like, we get the—like, the growth hormone gets secreted, and that's the—if we don't get enough sleep, we're not gonna grow and we're not gonna feel happy the next day. So you can, like, talk to her about the importance of sleep. And then you could say, like, “So, you know, I know you don't wanna go to sleep, and I know how important it is, and now you do too. And, you know—and I hate fighting with you at bedtime. You know, do you have any ideas for how we can solve this problem? Because I really want us both to go to bed feeling happy and connected.”Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great suggestion. Thank you. I think the biggest barrier to her getting to bed on time is she is finally feeling, like, a bit more calm and relaxed at night. Like, she comes home after school with a lot—she's holding a lot from school. They have, like, a point system for good behavior at school.Sarah: Oh.Joanna: And you should see how she racks up the points. She has great behavior at school. The teacher's, like—would never believe what goes on at home.Sarah: Of course, yeah.Joanna: So then she comes home, and it's, like, a lot of unloading. So I feel like by that time of night she's, like, ready to pursue her hobbies. Like, she's like, “Oh, I just wanna do this one more little”—you know, she's drawing something, and it's always like, “I just need to finish this,” because once she gets started on something, she can't seem to break her focus on—We're very much suspecting ADHD. That's gonna be probably in the next year we pursue a diagnosis, but—Sarah: Typically—do have a lot of trouble falling asleep—that's with ADHD. What about—you know, so two outta three of my kids had a lot of trouble falling asleep, and they're both my ADHD kids, and what really helped them was something to listen to at night. You know—Joanna: Yeah, she does listen to podcasts falling asleep—Sarah: Does listen to stuff.Joanna: Yeah, she's always listened—listened to, like, a story falling asleep. I think part of it too is we don't get a lot of one-on-one time throughout the day.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Because my son's around in the morning.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And it's usually just the three of us until my husband wakes up, which is shortly before she goes to school. And then it's again the three of us from after school till bedtime most days, except for the two days a week that he's off.Sarah: Well, I mean, that's something to explore too, like, in—are there, you know—I don't know if you live in a neighborhood that has some, like, tweens that could come over and play with your son for an hour—you know, just someone really fun that he would like to play with—and then you and your daughter could have some time together. Because what I was gonna say when you said that she comes home with what we call the “full backpack” in Peaceful Parenting—which is, she's been carrying around, for anyone who's listening who doesn't know what that is, it's a concept that my mentor, Dr. Laura, came up with—where you're holding on to all of the stresses, big feelings, tensions from the day, and then when you come home, it's too much to, you know, to keep holding onto it. And so that's what you were just referring to, is just that she's got a lot to unpack after the day at school. And so I'm wondering—so when you mentioned that, I was gonna say, like, what could you do to try to proactively get some of that emptied out? Couple of ideas: do you do any roughhousing with her?Joanna: We actually just started doing that, and I couldn't believe how much she was into it. Yeah, I was super surprised. But I also think that it's taken just a lot of, like, repair with our relationship to get to the point that I've even been able to try some of this stuff. Like, because at first, like, when I first started hearing about some of these, like, peaceful—I, I don't know if you'd call them techniques—but, like, being playful and, um, roughhousing and things like that—she was so not open to anything at all because she was just so serious and so edgy and like, “Get away from me,” like, so irritable. So now I think that we've just—I've poured a lot of time in on weekends just to, like, spend time together that's enjoyable, and I'm noticing a huge shift. So now we are able to do some of these things, and it—it is turning out more positively.Sarah: Good. I mean, as you're speaking, I'm thinking that it sounds like there was maybe, um, quite a—a breach when your son was born, like, the last two years. Or, or do you feel like your relationship has always been a little strained even before that?Joanna: I feel like maybe it's always been a little fraught. I don't know if his birth had, like, a huge impact on that. Um, it has always been pretty strained.Sarah: Okay, okay.Joanna: Just because she's the more challenging kid?Sarah: I think so. And, you know, when she was two there was the pandemic. I think, like, I was carrying a lot of trauma after the whole NICU experience with her. And then we had the pandemic, and then we moved, and then I got pregnant, and then I had my son. So it's like there's sort of been these, like, things along the way where—yeah, I don't know.Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, that's good that you brought that up because I think that, you know, maybe that's gonna be the pre-work—that even before bedtime starts to feel better is really working on—you know, if you can get some support in, because it is really hard to have one-on-one time with a 2-year-old who probably doesn't wanna leave you alone. But even if—you know, continue with your sort of bulking up on the weekends with that time with her and do some, like, roughhousing and special time with her. Do you guys do special time?Joanna: Yeah. And that's something I wanted to talk about because special time has been sort of a big fail when I call it special time and when we set a timer for special time, because it really tends to dysregulate her, I think, because she's like, “Oh my God, I only have you for 15 minutes.” Mm-hmm. She gets really stressed out, and then she's like—oftentimes she likes to do these, like, elaborate pretend plays—things which need, like, a lot, a lot of setup time. Yeah. So she'll be like, “Pause the timer so I can set this up,” and then it just becomes, like, more tension between us. Like, it's not enjoyable.Sarah: It's one of those things where, like, you really have to adjust it to how it works for your particular family. Um, so, you know, maybe you just have, like, a couple hours with her on the weekend and you're—and it would be good for your—your partner and your son too. Maybe he could take him to the park or go and—you know, for them to work on their connection, which might make him a little bit more willing to go to bed with his dad, you know, on the nights that your partner is home. So, you know, I would really work on that connection with her and do those pretend play things with her. And even—you know, and this is maybe obvious, which is why I didn't say it before—but, you know, partly she's dragging her heels because that's the only time she has you to herself—at bedtime, right?Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: And so she doesn't want that to end because that's the only time that it—her brother's asleep—she has you all to herself. So if you can increase the time where she has you all to herself, she might be more willing to, um, to go to bed. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, do you have anything that you do together at bedtime that would be, like—it sounds like she's dragging her heels to actually get in bed. Is there anything that you can do to entice her to get in bed, like a chapter book that you're reading her, that you read a chapter every night or something like that?Joanna: Yeah, and that has worked in the past, but it can—it can also kind of cause tension because I find, like, then I am a lot more apt to kind of hold it as, like, a bargaining chip instead of, like, “Oh, let's get to that.” Right. But lately we've been playing cards, and she's really motivated to, like, play a game of cards when we're in bed. So that seems to be working right now, but it's always kind of like—it changes all the time.Sarah: Right, right. Well, just keeping—thinking of something that you can use to make getting in bed seem more attractive? Um, maybe—I mean, my kids used to love hearing stories about me when I was little or about them when they were little. So it could even just be, like, a talk time. I know Corey, who works with me, does—she started doing a 10-minute talk time with one of her sons, who's a little bit older than—than your daughter, but where they just have, you know, this time where they just get in bed and he tells her stuff and they—they talk. So that could be something too—just really pure, straight-up connection.Joanna: Yeah. Okay, I like that. Maybe I can just ask you a couple more things about some of the things I—She's kind of a person that really wants constant connection too. Like, it does feel like I could spend, like, all day with her, and then she—once it's over, she would still be like, “Well, why are we not still—” like, it—we've always kind of—my husband and I will joke that she's got, like, a leaky cup because it's, like, “Just fill up their cup,” but it doesn't seem to matter. He used to play with her for, like, two to three hours when she was younger, and then at the end she would just, like, not be satisfied. Like, it didn't seem like anything was going to, like, fill her cup.Sarah: And that—you know what, there are kids like that. I remember I had this client once whose son actually said to her, “Mama, all the—all the hours in the world are not enough time with you.” And there are some kids that are really just like that. And, you know, I'm not sure how you respond when she says, like, you know, “But we hardly even got to play,” after you play for three hours. I mean, that playful—like, “Oh my gosh, like, what if we could just play all day?” You know, either, like, playful response of, like, “We could play for 27 hours,” you know, “and—and—and we would still have so much fun together.” Or just pure empathy, you know, like, “Oh no, it just feels like it's never enough time, is it?”Joanna: And it almost seems like sometimes when I am empathetic, it almost, like, fuels her anger. I don't know if you've ever heard that before from anybody else, but—eh, I don't know. Like, we had a situation with—like, she was looking for a specific bear last weekend—a teddy bear that she's missing—because she wanted to bring it to a teddy bear picnic. And so we were sort of, like, you know, we had to get out the door to go to this party. She couldn't find this bear, and I was, like, you know, offering a lot of empathy, and just, like—the more that I was like, “I know, like, you're so frustrated; you're so disappointed that you can't find your bear,” it was like the more that she was like, “Yeah, and you took it, you hid it, you put it somewhere.” Like, it just—the more empathy I gave, it seemed like the more that she was using it as almost, like, fuel to be upset. Does that make sense? Right.Sarah: Yeah. No, that's pretty common. And the thing is, you have to remember that blame is trying to offload difficult feelings. It's like, “I don't wanna feel this way, so I'm gonna blame you.” And then—you know, it's anger—have you ever seen the image of the anger iceberg?Joanna: Yes.Sarah: Yeah. So the anger iceberg is, like, the anger is the only thing you see coming out of the water. But underneath the iceberg are all of the more tender feelings, right? And anger is actually a secondary emotion. So you don't start out by feeling angry. You feel—like, like for her, she maybe was feeling frustrated and disappointed that she couldn't find her bear. And those are the first feelings. But those more tender feelings are harder to feel, and so anger is often protective. And the tender feelings also set off that—you know, that overwhelm of our emotions registers as a threat to the nervous system, which sets off that fight, flight, or freeze. So there's all those things going on, right? Like, the blame of, like, trying to offload the feelings; the anger of feeling like it's easier to go on the offensive than to feel those tender feelings; and then the nervous system getting set off by that overwhelm that registers as a threat, right? It sets off the fight, flight, or freeze. And they're—they're kind of all different ways of saying the same thing. And yes, empathy often will help a child—that they get more in touch with those feelings. And I'm not saying that you don't wanna empathize, um, but just recognize that, you know, the feelings are happening, and when you empathize, they—you know, you're welcoming the feelings, which sometimes can have that fight, flight, or freeze effect.Joanna: And would you recommend that I continue to really lean into empathy more and just stay with all of that emotion until it passes?Sarah: So—totally depends. The other thing I was gonna say is it's possible—like the situation you just gave me—it's possible—like, how—were you actually feeling empathetic, or were you trying to just get out the door?Joanna: I think I was, but at a certain point I was like, “I think, you know, we have two options from here. Like, we can continue to be upset about the bear and it—it will make us late for the party, or at a certain point we can move on and make a new plan,” and, like, “get our—make our way over there.” So, um, is that effective? Yeah, I—I mean, she eventually was able to change gears. But, I mean, it doesn't feel like real life to just be able to, like, sit in your negative emotions all the time. And I think, like, maybe I struggle with doing that for, like, a long enough period of time to actually let her—let them out.Sarah: Well, I don't know—yeah. So, I mean, there's a difference between welcoming feelings and wallowing in emo—in emotion, I think.Joanna: Yeah. And she definitely is a wallower, and she almost has really, like, attached so much sadness and frustration and anger to this bear. Like, now she'll just, like, think about the bear and be like, “Oh, I still can't find that bear.” Like, she was just, like, you know, exploding about it again this past weekend. So it almost feels like she's just latching onto it to, like, feel bad there.Sarah: I mean, some kids—she's probably not choosing to latch onto it to feel bad, but she probably just has. So, so what I was gonna say is sometimes when kids seem to be wallowing, it's just that there's so much there that they haven't been able to get out on a regular basis. So I think it is just like a full backpack, and there's just a lot there. And it's not—it's probably not just about the bear. It's probably just like she's—it's, you know, processing other older things too. And you don't have to know what's in the backpack or try and figure it out. But you might find that if you had more opportunities for her to process feelings, then she might not get so stuck when they do start to come out.That's one thing that I would think of. Like—and more laughter should help with that. Like, more laughter and roughhousing to help her sort of process stuff. And also sometimes—so the bear thing reminds me of—some kids will just feel bad, you know, like feel bad sometimes from, like, a full backpack, or maybe they don't even know what it is, they can't connect. Or maybe they're just tired and low-resourced and their brain is kind of like, “Why do I feel bad? Why do I feel bad?” And she's like, “Oh, the bear.” You know, she remembers, like, the bear. Like, I've had clients tell me, my kid will say, like, “I miss Grandpa,” who they never met, who died before they were born—like, just kind of casting around for, like, “Why could I be feeling this way right now? Oh, I know—it's 'cause I can't find that bear.”Or maybe the bear is so important to her that it really is—that she thinks about it and it just makes her feel bad. But I think what you wanna remember when it seems like she's wallowing is that, you know, getting—like, having empathy. And I actually also did a podcast about this too, with another coaching call, where I talked about, you know, cultivating a certain amount of nonchalance after you feel like you've been pretty empathetic and welcomed the feelings. Because I think if we're too empathetic sometimes—and I do wanna be very careful with this because I don't want anyone to take this as, like, “Don't be empathetic”—but, you know, there is a time where you just say, like, “You know what? I hear how upset you are about this, and I get it. And I would be really bummed if I couldn't find the bear I wanted also. And we have to decide, like, are we gonna stay here and just keep feeling sad about the bear, or should we figure out another plan?” Like what you said, right.Joanna: Yeah, I have heard you say that before, and that's been so helpful for her. Mm-hmm. It seems like if I'm not so reactive to her emotions, she realizes that they're not an emergency either.Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean—and that's a good point too, because I didn't even ask you, like, how's your regulation when this is happening? Like, are you getting, like, annoyed, frustrated, upset for her, kind of drawn in? Are you able to, like, kind of center yourself and stay calm?Joanna: It varies. I would say I currently am the most resourced that I've ever been—good with, like, the emotional regulation piece. And then that—I see, like, sometimes she is able to come out of it more quickly, or it just depends on, you know, what her tolerance is at that—at that time. So—Sarah: Joanna, it might be that, you know, you're coming out of—almost like you're coming out of a fog of, you know—you said all the things: like the NICU experience, and then the—and then COVID, and then your new baby, and—and that it might be that you're really, finally for the first time, kind of getting to tend—you know, look at yourself, your own regulation, and be more present and connected with your daughter. And all these things are gonna start having a little bit of, um, of a snowball effect. And it may be that you've just had this, like, seven-year period of difficulty, you know?Joanna: Oh, that's horrifying.Sarah: Well, but the good news is it sounds like things are shifting.Joanna: Yeah. It really does feel like that. Yeah. You're—I feel like even if I talked to you a few months ago, I would've been like, “Oh, help me.”Sarah: Well—and that you're recognizing what you brought—what you bring to the table, and that, you know, things have been fraught with your daughter, and that you're sort of starting to come out. And—and honestly, also doing that—doing that bedtime—after-school bedtime by yourself five days a week, that's gonna be tough too. Uh, so you've got situ—just that current situation doesn't sound like it'll change, but you're changing what you're bringing to it.Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I can maybe just ask you, like, one more little thing?Sarah: Sure.Joanna: Maybe this is—it all comes back to, like, wanting a lot of connection, but this is also what kind of drains my battery. She constantly wants to, like, talk to me or ask me questions from, like, the time that she wakes up to the time that she goes to bed. And it will be—like, currently it's, like, “Would you rather.” It's like, “Would you rather eat all the food in the world or never eat again?” Uh-huh. In the past it's been, like, “Guess what's in my mouth?” But then she always really tries to make it—make me wrong in the circumstance, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if that's just her, like, looking for power or, like, the upper hand, or like—I don't know. I'm not sure what it is.Sarah: Well, I mean, if you feel—if you have a sense that she's looking for power, I would bring that into the roughhousing—where you are the one who's weak and bumbling and idiotic, and, you know, you're so slow, and she beats you every time at a race. So I would really try to bring some of that—some of that stuff into your roughhousing where she gets to be—Do you know the kind of stuff I'm talking about? Like, “I bet you can't—um, you know, I bet you can't beat me at arm wrestling,” and then, like, you know, you flop your arm over in a silly way, and like, “How are you so strong? Like, I'm gonna beat you next time.” And it's obviously playful, because probably you are stronger than she is at this point, but, you know—feats of strength or speed, or, you know, figuring things out, and you act like you really don't know anything. And—but in, of course, in a joking way, so she knows that you're not—you know, you're pretending to be all these things, but she still gets to gloat and, like, “Ha, you know, I'm the strongest, I'm the best.” So really giving her that in roughhousing.And then also, like, real power. Like, I don't know if she gets to make—what kinds of decisions she gets to make, or, you know, how much—how flexible you are on limits. Because sometimes, as parents, we do set unnecessary limits, which can make our kids, you know—make them look for power in other ways. So really looking at what limits you're setting and if they're necessary limits, and—and how you're setting them. Uh, and also I think it sounds like it's connection-seeking—like, she just wants you. You know, she wants to know that you're there and paying attention to her. And so everything else that you're doing—that we're talking about—that you're gonna try to do more—more time with her and get more one-on-one time with her, hopefully that will help too.And I think it is okay to say, like, after you've done, like, 25 “would you rathers,” I just say—like, I used to say to my kids, “You know what? My brain is just feeling really stimulated from so many words. Like, can we have some quiet for a few minutes?” And not—and being very careful to not phrase it like, “You're talking too much,” or “I don't wanna listen to—” and I'm exaggerating for effect—but just framing it as, like, your brain and a regulation thing—like, “My brain,” and it is words. Yeah. And so, like, “Do you—should we put some music on?” You know, “Can we—like, think of—can you connect in a way that—let's listen to a story.” Okay. Something like that where you still, like, keep up connection with her, but—and it might not work. She—she might not be able to stop talking, but you can try it at least.Joanna: No, that's a—that's a really good suggestion. Almost like replacing it with some other kind of stimulation if she's looking for that in that moment.Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think—I think it's just—I think it's fair. Like, it's totally—I, at the end of the day, with people, like, talking at me all day, I sometimes am like—you know, when my kids were younger, I'd be like, “Okay, you know, I—I just need a little—my brain needs a little bit of a break. It's feeling overstimulated.” So I think just using that language with her.Joanna: Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. Well—Sarah: Yeah, I think you're—you know, I think that I've—that we've connected at a point where you're, like, at—you're, like, at the—sort of the top of a mountain, you know? And you've been, like, having all this struggle and uphill battles. And I think you've put—before even we talk—you've put a lot of pieces [together] of what—you know, why some of the challenges were. And they do seem to be connection—you know, connection-based, just in terms of, um, you know, her wanting more and you not being as resourced. And so hopefully working on connection is gonna help with that too.Joanna: Yeah. I'm gonna keep that at top of mind.Sarah: And your self-regulation too. You said you're—you know, you've been having—you're more resourced now than you ever have been, so you're able to work on really staying, like, calm and compassionate in those times when she's dysregulated. Going back to what I said in the beginning, which is that, you know, the steps for the meltdowns really start with our own regulation.Joanna: And I find it's a snowball effect too, because once you start seeing positive changes, it allows you to, like, rest in knowing that things will not always be so hard.Sarah: Yeah. So it—Joanna: It gives you motivation to keep going, I think.Sarah: Totally. And, you know, with complex kids—which it sounds like your daughter is one of those more complex kids—um, brain maturity makes such a huge difference. Um, like, every month and every year as she's starting to get older. And, you know, you mentioned ADHD—that you—that you suspect that she might be ADHD. ADHD kids are often around three years behind, um, in terms of what you might expect for them in terms of, like, their brain development. And not—and not across the board. But in terms of, like, their regulation, in terms of what they can do for themselves, um, like in—you know, and obviously every kid is different. But it really helps to think about, um, your ADHD kids as sort of, uh, developmentally younger than they are. My—my girlfriend who has—her son and my daughter are the same age, so they're both just starting college or university this year. And, um, she was—I—she lives in California, and I was talking to her, and her son has ADHD, and she was talking about how much support he's still needing in first-year college and how she was feeling a little bit like, “Oh, I feel like I shouldn't be supporting him this much when he's 18.” And—and she said, “Actually, I just re—you know, I always remind myself of what you told me a long time ago: to think of him as three years younger than he is in some ways,” and that that's made her feel a little bit better about the scaffolding that she's having to give him.Joanna: Yeah, I've never heard that before. That's good. She's also gonna be starting to work with an OT in a couple of weeks, so we'll see if that has any effect as well.Sarah: Cool.Joanna: Cool.Sarah: Alright, well, I look forward to catching up with you in around maybe three weeks or a month and seeing how things went, and, um, good luck, and I hope this was helpful and gave you some things to work on.Joanna: Okay. Thank you so much.Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome back to the podcast.Joanna: Hi Sarah.Sarah: So—how has—it's been about—I think it's been about four weeks since we talked the first time. How have things been?Joanna: Yeah, things I think have been going a little better. Like, every day is a little bit different. We definitely have, like, a lot of ups and downs still, but I think overall we're just on a better trajectory now. Um, it's actually—I was wondering if things—if, like, the behavior has actually been better, or if it's more just, like, my frame of mind.Sarah: That is the classic question because—it's so funny, I'm—I'm laughing because so much of the time when I'm coaching parents, after a couple of sessions they'll say, “This isn't even about my kids. This is all about me.” Right.Joanna: Yeah, it really, really is and just continues to be about, like, my own—not just frame of mind, but, like, my own self-regulation. That's always the biggest thing.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Um, I think the biggest challenge is, like—ever since, like, about six months ago, I just have had really bad PMS. So I find, like, the week before—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: I just feel so irritated by everything.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: So I feel like that's a really—just so much more of a challenging time because then things that normally don't bother me are bothering me a lot more.Sarah: Right.Joanna: And then it's harder to keep that connection strong.Sarah: Totally. Yeah. And you also—as we mentioned last time—you have come off of a whole bunch of different events of, you know—we talked your daughter's premature birth, and then COVID, and then the new baby. And the new baby—you know, you're not sleeping that much, and, um, all of those things would make it also have your resources be low. Like, not only the PMS, but, like, anything that puts a tax on us—on our resources—is gonna make us more irritable.Joanna: Totally. And—but I'm really trying to lean into having a lot more compassion for myself, because I know that when I do that, I can have a lot more compassion for her and, mm-hmm, whatever's going on that she's bringing to the table too. So that's—that's, I think, probably the biggest thing. But I think that our relationship is just starting to have a lot more resilience—like, when things do start to go sideways, either she or I—we're able to kind of get back on track a lot more quickly than before, and it doesn't become as, like, entrenched.Sarah: That's awesome. And we—we talked last time about trying to get some more time with her so that the only time that she has with you isn't just at bedtime when you're trying to get her to go to bed. Have you been able to do that, and has it—do you think that's been helping?Joanna: Yeah. It depends. Like, we had a really busy weekend this past weekend, so not as much. And then I find that sometimes, like, a barrier to that is, like, by the time the weekend finally comes, I'm so depleted and really just, like, needing time for myself. As much as I'm like, “Okay, I need to spend one-on-one time with her,” I'm like, “I don't want to—I just, like, be by myself for a little while.” So it's—Sarah: I hear that.Joanna: It's always that—like, yeah, it's always that balancing act. And then, like, feeling guilty of, like, “Okay, no, I know I should want to hang out with her,” and I kind of just don't really.Sarah: Mm-hmm. No, you're—you're totally not alone. And it's funny that you just—you mentioned self-compassion and then you said, “I feel guilty 'cause I—I don't wanna hang out with her,” but we all—the theme so far in this five minutes is that, um, you know, what you're bringing to the—what you're bringing to the relationship has been improving. Like you said, your mindset has shifted, and that's helping things with her. So even if you're not getting time independently with her—and hopefully you can work towards that after you fill your own cup—but you're still helping things with her by getting time to yourself.Joanna: True. Yeah, because then I'm coming back just a much better, happier—yes—parent and person.Sarah: Totally.Joanna: Oh, thank you. That's helpful.Sarah: Yeah, and the—and I think you've—you know, you've touched—just in these few minutes—you've touched on two big things that I always say: if you can't really take these two things to heart, it'll be really hard to be a successful peaceful parent. And one is what you said—the mindset shift, you know, of how you see her behavior with, you know, that children are doing the best they can. You know, they're not giving us a hard time; they're having a hard time. And the other one is self-compassion. So making strides in both of those areas will really help you be that parent that you wanna be.Joanna: Yeah. And even though we're maybe not getting huge chunks of time individually, I am really trying to make the most of, like, those little moments—Sarah: Good.Joanna: —of connection. Yeah. So even, like—what we've started doing is, because my husband's on night shift, he is waking up with her in the morning because she has a really hard time in the morning. So now he's sort of with her, getting her ready in the morning. And then I am—like, we used to all walk to the bus together because my son likes to go too. But now my husband's hanging back with my son, so now I'm just walking her to the bus. And even though it's five minutes, it's like we're holding hands. She's able to tell me—Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: —you know, talking about whatever.Sarah: That's still—that—that totally counts. That's—and that also, um, that also takes care of something we talked about last time too, which is your husband and your son having more time together, um, so that the nights that—when your husband is home—maybe he can put your son to bed and start trying to shift that dynamic. So yeah. That's amazing that you're doing—that. Yeah, I think that's a great shift—walking to her—to the bus by herself.Joanna: And I think it—it actually makes a huge difference. You know, before it was like she would just kind of get on the bus and not really look back, and now she's, like, giving me a hug and a kiss and waving—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —waving in the window. So, like, I can see that it's having a positive effect right away.Sarah: You could even leave five minutes earlier than you have to and have—turn that five minutes into ten minutes.Joanna: I would love to do that. It's always just—like, it's really hard to get to the bus on time as it is. We will work toward that though.Sarah: I hear that. Well, if you did try to leave five minutes earlier then it might be more relaxed, even if you didn't even have any extra time, but you were just, like—leave, you know, change your whole morning back five minutes and try to get out five minutes early.Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. True. So I think that we had talked a lot about roughhousing last time too—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —and I do find that that's—that's really—it works well for her, but I run into this really specific problem where when, uh, like, we start roughhousing, and then she's enjoying it, but then my son wants to get in the mix—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —and then right away she's like, “No, like, get outta here.” So then she'll start kind of, like, pushing him or, like, throwing kicks or something. So—and then he gets upset because he's like, “Mom! Mom!” So then I end up sort of, like, pinned underneath both of them—Sarah: Right.Joanna: —they're mad at each other, hitting each other—Sarah: Oh no.Joanna: —they both want me.Sarah: Well, maybe—maybe don't do it then if that's how it ends up. But I do have a couple of shifts that might help before you give up on it when you're alone with them. One is, do you ever try to do those “two against you”? Like, start it out right from the get-go—“You two against Mommy. See if you can—see if you can—” Um, it's funny you just said you end up pinned down because that's what I often say. Like, “See if you can stop Mommy from getting up,” or “See if you can catch me,” or, you know, trying to align the two of them against you. That might help.Joanna: Yeah, I love that idea. Never thought about that. Yeah, I think she would love that.Sarah: Yeah. So, “Okay, you two are a team, and you have to try to stop me from jumping on the bed,” or “You know, you—you have to stop me from getting to the bed,” or, you know, something like that.Joanna: Okay, I'm gonna try that. I think that they'll love it.Sarah: Yeah. Another idea is, um, what I call “mental roughhousing,” where you're not doing, like, physical stuff, but you're being silly and, like, um—I think I mentioned her last time to you, but A Playful Heart Parenting—Mia—W—Walinski. She has a lot of great ideas on her Instagram—we'll link to that in the show notes—of, like, different, um, like, word things that you can do. When I say mental roughhousing, it's like getting everyone laughing without being physical.Joanna: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Uh, which—you know, the goal of roughhousing is to get everyone laughing, and sometimes being physical might not work. But you can—like, I'll give you an idea. This isn't from Mia, but this is something that I used to do with my kids. Like, you know, one of you—you're like—you say to JR, “Oh—where did your sister go?” And she's sitting right there. “She was just here a minute ago. Where did Jay go? I don't see her. What happened to her? She disappeared.” And meanwhile she's like, “I'm right here! I'm right here!” You know—something like that that's more of, like, a—more of a mental roughhousing.My kids and I used to play this game that actually my brother-in-law invented called Slam, where, like, you both say a word at the same time. Um, so, like—I'm just looking around my—like, you know, “curtain” and, you know, “lemonade.” Uh, and then it's like—you both say it—both—you both say your word at the same time. And that actually wasn't a very funny one—kids come up with much funnier ones than I do—but it's like, “Is that, like, a lemonade that is made out of curtains, or is it a—what—” It's such a dumb example now that I think of it, but—but—or is it, like, a curtain that hides the lemonade? And so you just try and—like, you think of silly things that the two words together—the two words “slam” together—mean.Joanna: Okay, great. That's—that's on my next book—that's on my next thing to read. You—man—you keep mentioning—what is it? Playful—Playful Heart Parenting? She has an—I—Sarah: There was a book—there was a book too. And—Joanna: Oh—Sarah: Playful Parenting—the Larry Cohen book.Joanna: The Larry Cohen book, yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: That's a great book. Yeah, and he was on my podcast too, so you could listen to that. We'll also link to—Mia was on my podcast, and Larry was—so we'll link to both of those in the show notes as well.Joanna: Okay, great. I may have listened to one of those, but—yeah. Okay. Yeah.Sarah: And Playful Parenting is really great for also talking—and, like, Mia is just straight up, like, how to be more playful in life and to, you know, make more joy in your family kind of thing. And Larry talks about how to be more playful to also support your child through transitions and through big emotions and different things—like, it's a—it's a little bit more, um, like, all-around parenting—Playful Parenting.Joanna: Okay.Sarah: But it is different.Joanna: Yeah. I used to have a really hard time getting the kids upstairs to start the bedtime routine. And now it's like—I'll be like, “Okay, I'm gonna hide first,” and, like, I go upstairs and hide and we start—Sarah: Oh, I love that.Joanna: —we play hide-and-seek, and—Sarah: Oh yeah, it was a stroke of genius one day, and it's been working so well just to get everyone, like, off the main floor and—Joanna: —upstairs.Sarah: I'm gonna totally steal that idea. That's such a good idea. Yeah, because you could also send them up—“Okay, go hide upstairs and I'll come and find you.” And then you could do a round of you hiding. And I love that. That's a great idea. Yeah.Joanna: And I especially love hide-and-seek for sometimes when I need, like, 30 seconds by myself in a dark closet—Sarah: —to, like, take a breath.Joanna: That's great.Sarah: I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's—that's so great.As I mentioned before, I forgot to ask Joanna for an update about a few things. So here's the update about breastfeeding her son in the night.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: Hi, Sarah. So, in terms of the night-weaning, um, I haven't gone ahead and done anything about that yet just because he does have his last molars coming in and has been sick. So I want to wait until he's well and pain-free to kind of give us our best chance at getting that off on the right foot. But I have really realized that because he's my last baby, that this is really the last little home stretch of being woken up by a baby at night—specifically to nurse. So that's helped me kind of reduce my feelings of resentment toward it.Sarah: I love that Joanna zoomed out and looked at the big picture and the fact that this is her last baby, and used that to sort of just change her mindset a little bit and make it a little bit easier to continue on with something when she knew it wasn't the right time to stop. And now here is her update about bedtime with her daughter. And for this, I love that she got preventive—you'll see what I mean—and also playful. Those are two really great things to look at when you're having any struggles with your kids: like, how can I prevent this from happening? And also, how can I be playful when it is happening and shift the mood?Joanna: And in terms of bedtime with my daughter, we've made a couple of schedule changes to set us off on a better foot once I get back together with her after putting my son to bed. So I think we used to have a lot of conflict because it was like she was still asking for another snack and then hadn't brushed her teeth, and then it was just kind of getting to be too late and I was getting short on patience. So now we have, like, a set snack time where everybody has a snack, and I let them know, like, “This is the last time that we're eating today,” and then we're going upstairs—using hide-and-seek, like I mentioned—and then just really continuing to be playful in all doing our bedtime tasks together.So, for example, I'm saying, like, “Okay, I'm gonna go into my room and put my pajamas on. Can you guys go get your PJs on—and then don't show me, but I have to guess what pajamas you have on?” So she really loves that because, like I mentioned, she loves to get me to guess things. But also she's then helping her brother get ready for bed, and he's far more cooperative with her than with me in terms of getting his pajamas on. So it all works really well.Yeah, and then just kind of continuing to be silly and playful is really helping with brushing teeth—it's like, “Who can make the silliest faces in the mirror?” and stuff. So, really kind of moving through all those tasks together so that by the time I'm out of the room and ready to put her to bed, everything's done, and we can just get into playing cards and then snuggling and chatting and—and leaving from there after maybe a five- or ten-minute snuggle. So there's been way fewer meltdowns at the end of the night because we are able to just not get in this place where we're getting into power struggles in the first place. It's just really all about, like, the love and connection at the end of the day.Sarah: The final thing I wanted to check in with you about is—you were asking about the meltdowns. You know, when Jay gets really upset and, you know, how to—um—how to manage those. Have you had any chances to practice what we talked about with that?Joanna: Yeah, she actually had a really, really big, long, extended meltdown yesterday, and, um, I just continue to not really feel like I'm ever supporting her in the way that she needs supporting. Like, I don't—I always end up feeling like I'm not—I'm not helping. I don't know. It's just a really, really hard situation.Sarah: I was just talking to a client yesterday who—who actually wanted to know about supporting her child through meltdowns, and I said, “Well, what would you want someone to do for you?” You know—just kind of be there. Be quiet. You know, offer a—you know, rub the—rub your back—rub her back. I mean, I don't know exactly what your child wants, but I think that's a good place to start if you feel like you're not being successful—like, “Well, what would I want if this was happening to me?”Joanna: And I think that really—that's enough, right? It's enough—Sarah: Oh, totally.Joanna: —to be there. And it always—maybe I'm just feeling like it's not enough because we don't really even get, like, a good resolution, or, like, even—eventually it just kind of subsides, right?Sarah: If you were having a meltdown, that's what would happen. Nobody can come in there and fix it for you.Joanna: Um, exactly.Sarah: Nobody can come in and say the magic words that's gonna make you not feel upset anymore. So it's really just about that—being there for somebody. And we're—it's not that the resolution is “I fixed their problems.”Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: The resolution is “I was there with them for the journey.”Joanna: Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying, where it's like, “Oh, this work really is just about me.”Sarah: Yeah, totally.Joanna: And learning how to show up.Sarah: And not feeling anxious when your child is upset and you're like, “I don't know what to do,” and just think, “Okay, I just have to be

Ten years, 50,000+ copies, four languages, and about a million stories later… the second edition of Mastering Portrait Photography is here. Sarah flips the mic and grills me about why we did a new edition, what changed (spoiler: basically everything but one image), how mirrorless and AI have shifted the craft, and why a tiny chapter on staying creative might be the most important two pages I've ever written. There's a Westie called Dodi, a cover star called Dory, and a street scene in La Boca that still makes me grin. Enjoy! Links: Signed Copy of Mastering Portrait Photography, New Edition - https://masteringportraitphotography.com/resource/signed-copy-mastering-portrait-photography-new-edition/   Transcript: Sarah: So welcome back to the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast and today's a special one. Hi, I'm Sarah, and I'm the business partner of Paul at Paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk and also his wife too. Now, you might already know him as the voice behind this podcast, but today I'm gonna get the rare pleasure of turning the microphone around and asking him the questions. So Paul, it's been 10 years since the first edition of mastering portrait photography hit the shelves, and with selling over 50,000 copies, multiple reprints and translation into four languages, it's safe to say it's had a bit of an impact, but as we all know, photography doesn't stand still and neither do you. So today we're diving into the brand new second edition. So Hello Paul. Paul: Hello. It feels weird saying hello to my wife in a way that makes it sound like we've only just met. Sarah: Mm. Maybe, maybe. Paul: The ships that pass in the night. Sarah: Yes. So I thought we'd start with talking about the, the first version. You know, how did it come about? A bit of the origin story about it. Um, and I'll leave that with you. Paul: Well, of course Confusingly, it's co-authored with another Sarah, um, another photographer. And the photographer and brilliant writer called Sarah Plater, and she approached us actually, it wasn't my instigation, it was Sarah's, and she had written another book with another photographer on the Foundations of Photography. Very popular book. But she wanted to progress and had been approached by the publisher to create Mastering Portrait Photography. This thing that we now have become used to didn't exist 10 years ago, and when she approached us, it was because she needed someone who could demonstrate photographic techniques that would live up to the title, mastering portrait photography. And we were lucky enough to be that photographer. And so that first book was really a, a sort of trial and error process of Sarah sitting and interviewing me over and over and over and over and over, and talking about the techniques that photographers use in portraiture. Some of it very sort of over the sort of cursory look, some of it in depth, deep dives, but all of it focusing on how to get the very best out of your camera, your techniques, and the people in front of you. And that's how it came about. I mean, little did I know 10 years ago we'd be sitting here where we are with Mastering Portrait Photography as a brand in and of itself.This is the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast Yes, because the book sold so well. Sarah: And did you expect it to do as well as it Paul : Oh, I'm a typical photographer, so, no, of course I didn't, you know, I kind of shrugged and thought it'd be all right. Um, and, and in some ways, because you have to boil it down into, I think there's a 176 pictures or there, there were in the first book or somewhere around there, a couple of hundred pages. There's this sense that there's no way you can describe everything you do in that short amount of space. And so instead of, and I think this is true of all creatives, instead of looking what we achieve. We look at the things we haven't done. And I talk about this on the podcast regularly, the insecurity, you know, how to, how to think like a scientist. That's something that will come up later when we talk about the new version of the book. But no, I, I thought it would be reasonably well accepted. I thought it was a beautiful book. I thought Sarah's words were brilliant. I thought she'd captured the, the processes that I was talking about in a way that clarified them because I'm not known for my clarity of thought. You know, you know, I am who I am, I'm a creative, um, and actually what happened was the minute it was launched, the feedback we got has been amazing. And of course then it's gone on to be translated into Italian. A couple of different Italian versions for National Geographic. It's been translated into Korean, it's been translated into German, it's been translated into Chinese. Um, and of course, technically it's been translated into American English. And, and one of the reviews that made me laugh, we've got amazing reviews on Amazon, but there is one that kind of made me laugh, but also upset me slightly, is that both Sarah and myself are British authors. Using English uk, UK English, but for the international market right from the get go the book was using American spellings, Sarah: right? Paul : We didn't know that was what was gonna happen. We provided everything in UK English and of course it went out in with American English as its base language. Its originating language. Um, and that's one of the biggest criticisms we Sarah: got. Paul - Studio Rode Broadcaster V4 (new AI): And when that's the criticism you're getting that people are a bit fed up that it's in American English and apologies to my US friends, of which I have many. Um, it was the only one that really. I don't like that. So I thought, well, it must be all right. And so for 10 years it's been selling really well. book. I never knew it'd be in different languages. Um, it was in the original contract that if the publisher wanted to do that, they could. And really, I only found out it was an Italian when I started getting messages in Italian from people who'd bought the book in Italy. And then of course, we found out. So it's been a remarkable journey and. I don't think I've been as proud of something we've done as I have of the book. I mean, me and you spent hours pouring over pictures and talking about stories. Sarah had to then listen to me. Sarah: Yes. Paul: Mono, sort of giving these sort of diatribes on techniques and things we do. Um, you know, and I think, I think it's a remark. I, well, I still think it's a remarkable achievement. I'm really proud of it. Sarah: Yes. Did, did you think the second edition would, would happen or, um, or how did it come about? Paul: No, not really. Because if you remember, we did a sort of interim update, which was just off the ISBN, so the same ISBN, same book number, but we'd been asked if there was anything that needed tweaking minor word changes, those kinds of things. And I assumed not really being, you know, that time experienced with this stuff is that was. Was a second edition, it was basically a reprint. So I sort of assumed that was the end of it. And then, um, we were contacted the end of last year, um, to say that with the success of the book over the past decade, would we consider, uh, refreshing it properly refreshing it, a new updated edition because of course there's lots of things that change over time. Um. And it's, it was worth having another look at it. So no, I didn't expect it, but it was an absolute joy when the email came in It must have been. It's, it's one of those things that's so lovely when other people appreciate it and know that, um, it would be really good to have a, have another go at it and, uh, see what's changed. Sarah: So it kind of brings me onto what, what have you changed in it? What's, what are the new, the new bits that are in the second edition? Or was it even that from the first edition? You, you knew that there were things you'd love to include? Paul: Well, in a decade, so much changes. I. The equipment is the most obvious. You know, there's a chapter at the beginning on Kit, so you know, one of these dilemmas with books. I think again, we took advice from the publisher as to what do you include in a book? And the publisher were really keen and have stayed really keen that there's a chapter on the kit at the beginning. Um, and apparently that just helps a very particular part of the market sell. So that's fair enough. No problem with that. It's quite fun talking about technology. I don't mind it. Um, but of course that technology's evolved, so we had to update all of that to reflect the fact that 10 years ago we were just beginning to talk about the advent of mirrorless cameras, but they were nowhere near the quality of a digital SLR, for instance. Well, now mirrorless is the professional choice. Everything has gone mirrorless because it's got fewer moving parts. The sensors have increased in, um, sensitivity to focusing, you know, there's a million reasons why that's happened. So of course we've updated all of the technology. I think more importantly, certainly from my point of view is in those 10 intervening years, I've changed every picture. Our clients, the techniques, the. Post-production, the thought processes, um, even down to the fact that with mirrorless cameras, you can actually shoot in a slightly different way. I mean, I'm a traditionalist in many ways. I grew up with a film camera. Yes. So, you know, metering either using a meter or very careful control. Because your dynamic range is pretty limited. Um, maybe the fact that you would focus on a point and then wait for whatever it is that's moving through it, to move through it and take your, take your picture. Um, these were the kind of techniques, you know, lock your focus repose when I started, even even A-D-S-L-R, you know, I'll give you a really good example on how the technology has helped, though. It's not actually part of this book, but it's a, it's a really good illustrative point. Um, technology isn't the be all and end all of photography. What goes on in your head is what matters, but the technology is the enabler. And I work with the hearing dogs every week. We photograph running dogs all the time and with the DSLRs I was using, it would just take four goes, maybe five goes to get that perfect moment where the dog is spot perfect in focus. It's airborne, its paws are off the floor. Everything about it is absolutely right. Four or five goes, you know, because I'm shooting at maybe 10 frames a second. The focusing is more or less keeping up because of course, every time you take a picture, the mirror slaps up and the focusing then has to predict where the dog might have ended up. It's not doing, it's not tracking it at that point, and then you move to mirrorless. Um, and the Z9 that I use now, the Nikon is an unbelievable piece of kit. It locks onto the dog. I can shoot at 20 frames a second. Um, and one of those shots is invariably the shot I'm looking for. And, and that sounds like I'm cheating in some ways, but when you are a professional photographer, your job is to do the very best for your client. And so instead of spending an inordinate, inordinate amount, it's not easy for me to say a very long time. Um. You know, trying to get the right shot. Now I can do it very quickly and move on to another shot so we can provide a wider variety to our clients. And that's true with running children too. Yes. So the technology has changed and the techniques have changed with it. Um, now you're seeing on the back of your camera or through the viewfinder exactly the image. Not a facsimile of it, not a mirror. Prism view of it, you're seeing precisely what you're gonna capture. Um, and that gives you a huge amount of confidence in the shot and a huge amount of control too. You can really fine tune exactly how you want the exposure to be. For instance, you know, you don't have to worry about, is that right? Let's must check the histogram afterwards. You can check the histogram, live in the viewfinder and all these little bits, just make your job different. They, you connect with the shot in a different way. You connect with a client in a different way, and that's the tech side. But I've also, you know, I, in 10 years, I'm 10 years older. You know, in some ways I'm 10 years faster. In other ways, I'm 10 years slower. You know, the cameras are quicker, my shots are quicker, my knees are slower. Um, and it's a different perspective on life. I also teach a lot. The podcast, the book itself, the first edition of the book, led us to the podcast and the website where we run workshops and everything else. So all of this cumulative knowledge, when you look back at the old book, and while I'm still massively proud of it, the new edition was a wonderful opportunity to sit down and say, what would I like, how would I like to be represented this time? Yes, and it's a much more grown up approach, I think. I mean, I, I wasn't a kid back then, but this time around because the book was successful, instead of providing 10 pictures for every slot, I provided the picture I want, in that slot. Right? And so the book is much closer to how I would like it to be as a photographer. Every picture. Now, I could tell you a story about every single picture, every single client, and having the luxury of success on the first version gave me the luxury of being able to do more of what I wanted in this version. This is much more reflective, I think. Of me personally. Yes. And so I've, I've loved it. It's absolutely, it's such a, a lovely process to go through. Sarah: So how many pictures have been changed between the two versions? Paul: All bar one. Sarah: bar one. How intriguing. So will you tell us what the one is, or is that Paul: can, you can go and find that out for yourself. Yeah, so there's one single image that hasn't been changed. There's single image that hasn't been but every other image has has changed from the first edition. Uh, just a caveat to that, of course, some of the kit pictures, uh, 'cause they were generic, they've stayed the same. But every portrait, Wow. every single portrait except for one, has been changed. Sarah: And how did you go about choosing those pictures? 'cause I can imagine, you know, if you're starting effectively with a blank canvas for where the images have gotta go, uh, how on earth did you do that Paul: Um, slowly the publisher will tell you, uh. The thing to you have to remember though, is that this is an updated edition. Yes. And that was the contract. It was not a complete start again. So, although I had the opportunity to change every picture, every picture had to fit into an almost identical space because they weren't gonna redesign it. Right. It's updated edition and we have to be clear about that. So part of the puzzle was not just, which pictures do I want to illustrate, which point. It was, which pictures in the same shape previous do I want to illustrate? I mean, there's some wiggle room in there, but the designers did not want to do a full redesign. That was not what we were contracted for. Um, obviously the words were being updated too. And both Sarah and myself, um, I mean, since the first book I now write for magazines and online articles and things all the time, I write for all sorts of photography stuff. Um, and so actually both Sarah and myself wrote words this time round. Um, but nonetheless, we couldn't change too much. We could bring it up to date, but there, there were still bits that, you know, if I was being truly honest, there are things that I think in the past 10 years have become less relevant. And things, it would've been nice to have put some different stuff in, but that again, this is an updated edition, um, not a complete from the ground up rewrite. So actually I sat down and I looked at all of the, um, chapters and the words that we'd written in the first edition and thought about what we were trying to illustrate and went back to sort of basics really, and where I already had pictures in the portfolio. Um, we used pictures of great clients, interesting light, interesting locations, interesting techniques where there are certain things where, I'm not sure, the first time round, um, the illustrations of them were as good as I, as strong as I would've liked. I shot them again here in the studio, so things like the lighting pattern. You know, I have, I've talked about them for 10 years, these lighting patterns. So it was a really nice chance to sit Katie, who works for us in the studio, uh, to sit Katie in front of the camera and say, right, this is what we're gonna do. And I worked every lighting pattern and redrew every diagram to make that absolutely on point, which I think the first time round, while they are very, very good. They're not what I would've liked them to be this time round. So there was that side of it too. And then of course, and I'm sure you're gonna come onto it, there's a couple of, well, there's a new chapter in there which did give us a chance to explore something a little bit different. Um, so yeah, it was just a long process of finding pictures that if I'm gonna put my name to it, are the ones that I would like. Yes. And it's not always the best picture. It's not always the competition winners. they're in there. They are in there. Of course they're in there. Um, but I think this time round, um, I really enjoyed reminiscing. I think some of the pictures in there, they're all beautiful pictures, don't get me wrong. But some of the people I picked to be in them are people because actually that was a moment that I will remember for the rest of my life for all sorts of reasons. And I think the, the strongest example of that is our cover shot is Dory now. The story of Dory. That sounds really weird. The story of Dory? photo. Dory. Story of photograph. Oh yeah, my you met Dory? Or should we go with I dunno if the story of Dory that's like, sounds like a children's book. That'd be a great chance to write a children's book. So Sarah and I were having dinner. Dory was working in the restaurant that, uh, we are having dinner in. Um, I laughed to Sarah and said, I think, um, Dory would photograph beautifully. Sarah said, we'll, go and ask her. And I asked her and she said, no. She absolutely said no, categorically. And I said, okay. Then I wrote our email address, sorry, I wrote our web address. Uh, on the back of a, of a napkin and handed it to her. I said, look, you know, if you're not interested, that's fine, but have a look at my work. Um, and this was after the first edition of mastering portrait photography, and my idea was for Dorie to come to the studio and we'd film some stuff where we photographed her and use it for information, stuff for people who read the book and maybe create some YouTube videos and things. Um, anyway, at four o'clock in the morning, got an email back from Dory saying, actually, I've just looked at your work. Yes, please. And Dory has gone on to be someone we've worked with fairly regularly. Um, mostly, um, because she's just the nicest person in the world, but also she's supremely photogenic and you bring those two things together and they're the kind of people I love to work with. I love to celebrate. Photography with, so her picture, one of those pictures I shot in that session is the cover shot in the book and she features later on as well. 'cause she's come back with her husband and her kids and it's just a delight. And then there, you know, there are people from all over the world. Um, and so there's a lot of memories in there for both me and for you I Yes, Um, and it was, uh, just a pleasure to go through it. Oh, and the other thing is every single shot is shot since we published the first edition. So I did limit us to the past 10 everything is limited to what, what you've captured in the last 10 years? Yeah. Yes. Because figured that, um, if you're gonna do an updated edition, then, although there were pictures in the first version of the book, I would've loved to have had in there that never made it. Why don't we start from that point and move forwards? Other than the one Other than other than the one other than, one Sarah: so you've, you've talked a little bit about how you've changed and that's been reflected in the book. You've talked a little bit about how the technology has changed, but probably one of the biggest changes has been post-production, um, the introduction of, of ai. So is that reflected in the book, Paul: Yeah, of course it is. Um, the post-production chapter, um, I mean, the thing with post-production is that's a volume of books in and of itself. Uh, we put it into the book Sarah and myself, because I think it was important to note that an image isn't generally finished in camera. It's finished when it's finished. And this is true for film, by the way. This is not news, you know? Um, and it's for as long as film has been shot, transparency's and negatives. People have been doing a certain amount of post-production on them afterwards in their development tanks. Um, or whether they're doing hand toning or something is', this isn't new for me. I think you're about halfway there. Now, the second half might be a very short half, but it's almost certainly gonna evolve, at the very least, um, brightening controlling your tones and cropping. Okay. Maybe a bit of sharpening if that's your thing. So we put that chapter in just to make the point that there is a finishing stage. That was 10 years ago. In those 10 years, everything has changed. Yes. Yes. You know, even if I just kept it to the Photoshopping that we had in the first edition, all of that is different. I. And of course AI has now arrived. Um, I mean, it's a precocious child of a technology at the moment, but it's growing up really very fast and it's gonna affect us in every single element of us as creatives of, of us as business owners. There's, there's no part of our work. Even. Even the people that say I don't believe in AI are using cameras that have AI in them. You know, there's no way of escaping it. It's here with us and you can fight it if you want. And there are bits of it that I'm not that comfortable with. Certainly some of the training, the way they did it on images, without any acknowledgement of copywriting things, it's problematic. But in the end, it's here, it's now, and if you don't embrace it, the people who are in your market as a professional competing with you. Are embracing it so there's no getting around it. So yeah, there's a part of our post-production now talks about specifically EVOTO.AI, which is the app that we use. There's others as well re Bloom and a few others that do a very similar thing. Um, and we've put it in there. Again, not as this is what AI does, but for make, to make people aware that AI is now part of the puzzle. Use it, don't use it. And that's completely your choice. The same as it is with Photoshop. But it's a good place to just remind people. That this is the direction of travel for a good chunk of the industry. So yeah, we've changed that quite a lot. Sarah: And a section at the end. Is it Paul: my favorite section? Yes. this Sarah: a, this was a request from you to add this in. Paul: Yes, yes. Um, there's a, one of the things with doing this as a job, and it's not just a risk, it really does happen, is you find yourself. Sort of burnt out isn't the right word for it, really, or the right phrase for it. But you find yourself same old, same old, same old. You get good at stuff, you get known for stuff. People ask you to do that stuff. You do more of it. You, you're still good at it, but eventually you start to find yourself just a little bit flat. Um, and it happens all the time. And so I put a chapter and I asked the publishers if we could wiggle some stuff around and make some space to put one specific chapter in. It's not a long chapter, but to me it might be the most important chapter in there. It's about staying creative. It's just little techniques, little ideas for staying on top of your game, thinking of new things, being a creative. And, and being a creative is something you have to work at. You can't just, you don't just invent ideas. You have to be open to seeing things and thinking things and trying things, experimenting, working with different people, having mentoring. These are all the facets that I wanted to just in a very short chapter, 'cause we could only squeeze in a couple of pages. But it's the chapter that I think I am the most proud of Sarah: Yes. And knowing you as well as I do, you know, it's part of my challenge in the business is making sure that you keep motivated and keep being creative. So I, I know how important it's, and how we have to put shoots in the diary and, and do things that are just for you, for no other reason. Just than just to let you play. So I, I can see how important that is. Paul: Yeah. I'm, I'm aware of just how much cotton wool you wrap me in and I can feel it building as well. I always know when I'm not firing on all cylinders, because you start to sort of wrap cotton wool around me and start to think about putting it in other things that we need to do, or just a break to get away for a week. You know, there's those things. It's really hard. It's hard being a creative, as in it's hard to be a creative a hundred percent of the time, and b, creative a hundred percent of the time. The, the, you know, being called a creative is one thing, but actually being creative is a process of invention and experimenting and doing things that you haven't done before. That's the point of being creative. Um, and so, yeah, I'm always aware when I'm clearly starting to feel a bit frazzled because I can feel you starting to. Talk about doing other things. Sarah: So what I didn't realize is what you said earlier, that the, all the images have all been taken since the last book. Um, and they're from clients we've had all around the world as well. So I wondered if it would be. Nice to pull out a couple of our favorite images. Um, I sort of going on from your comments about staying creative. One that jumps out to me is when, um, Vivian and Dody came to the studio and, you know, this was a, a lady who came in with her West Highland tert. So Westy Westy, it's a white west. Highland, ter. And, um, we did some beautiful shots indoors, outdoors, um, having lots of fun. And then you built this, uh, amazing scene, um, which is including in the, included in the posing chapter. Do you wanna just explain and tell me a little bit about that one? Yeah. Um. Paul: Um, you know, Dodie, sorry. Vivian had emailed Dodie didn't email, obviously Doty's Do's dog, Vivian Vivian emailed to say she wanted a shoot with her dog. And I kind of, I say I distinctly remember the email. I remember what she said in the email, which is that she couldn't find another photographer who photographed the owner with their dog. Now, I dunno how hard Vivian looked. I'm not, I'm sure there's a lot of photographers listening to this that photograph dogs with their owners and I judge a lot now as a, as a judge and as a coach. So I know it to. Out there. But anyway, she landed on us and I'm thrilled that she did Vivian and, uh, Dodie turned at the studio. And Vivian is just beautiful. She's elegant. She has a real sort of gentle way about her, uh, and this beautiful little West Highland ter, which was for the first 10 minutes, I have to be honest in now. Backstory, my Nan had repeatedly West Highland Terriers. My Nan repeatedly did not train her. Westie, my Nan's dogs repeatedly bit us all of us as kids, as teenagers, as adults. Even my dad would like shut the door and run because this dog would go for him. And so when she turned up with this little Westie, I must admit I backed away. However, Dodi, just like Vivian, was gentle and calm and just followed her around and, and he would sit. In the studio just looking at her while we worked, if it was shots for her on her own. And then when she scooped him up or we tried to do something with him, he was so patient and so well behaved. So I've got this incredible client who wants to do these shots, and at the end of the shoot sometimes the greatest privilege you get is to say to someone, how long have you got? And if they've got a little bit more time. What you can do is say, would you mind just trying a few bits with us? So we cleaned the studio out. It's a white, the, the dog was a white dog. Vivian had a light colored outfit and this kind of fair, and she was just, it. It struck me that we could do something interesting with the white walls of the studio, the white floor of the studio, the white posing blocks that I've had probably for 20 years here. And so I did a couple of things and we, we shot some different combinations and then in the post-production STA stage, I built a model of our studio in 3D in blender, it with blocks exactly the same. And then I can create almost any scene I wanted around this shot that's right in the middle of Dodi looking up at Vivian. Um, and it was one of those shoots that, I mean, every shoot in here, there's a story similar to this where I could tell you it's a shoot I'll remember forever. Um, and it was, and it was just a, a real luxury and, and just, you know, I dunno if Vivian listens to the podcast, but hello. Um, and Vivian's also very kindly sourced books from China for us. Yeah. yes. It's hard to get hold of some of these things when you are not in country. So we're still in touch with her very much. He's a lovely client. Another one that, um, oh, actually there's quite a few in the book from where we work as master photographers with Crystal cruises and so, um. Sarah: We've got this lovely line where we talk about the book, where is it From Venice to Vietnam and Haddenham to Hawaii. Yeah. But, uh, one of my favorite shoots that's included is Christine, when we were in Brena Aires, and actually this is from this year when we were in South America and there's quite a few people that we borrowed on the ship to get some pictures. And also what a lovely opportunity. I think it's in locations. Um. Where there is it and where was it? It was in Le Bocca. Wasn't Itca Le Bocca with Christine? Do you Well, a little bit about that one? What's Paul: It has been a, a real luxury for us in the intervening 10 years. So a lot happened in 20 14, 20 15. And one of the things that happened around the time of the book was they were asked to work with Crystal Cruises, a company that provided the photography to them. Interviewed myself and Sarah. Sorry, us too. It's weird talking, made a third person and giving it right here. Um, interviewed us as a team and ever since then we've been traveling the world with them grading high-end portraits for these beautiful international clients. Um, and this time round the deadline. Not the instigation, but the deadline for the book came up while we were working for about seven weeks around South America on the cruise. So I already had earmarked images from previous cruises, previous visits to different places. But when I was on the ship, there were a couple of people, um, that really leapt out just. Ship. And one of the great luxuries when you have something like a book or you like you've become well known as a photographer, is you can say to people, would you mind stepping in to allow us to take some photographs? So there's a couple of people from the crew where you have to get permission to work with the crew. Um, there's, um. Uh, Barbara is one of the team on there. Uh, say Hi is one of the people on there, um, who were crew members that we just loved the way they were with us. They made our lives wonderful. And so we photographed them specifically to put them in the book. Um, and then there's a client of ours, which is the one you've alluded to, which is Christine Now. We met Christine at the end of another shoot, and this is. Um, I mean, remember this is still the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast, and so it's always worth remembering some of the things that you can do as photographers. This is not just an interview about me in a book, but here's some ideas for you that work. So on the ship, we had just done a shoot, an amazing shoot, and a lady who was in that shoot was showing her images round the bar to all of her friends on our iPad. Now we were drinking, we were sat and we were sat next to this lovely lady who was very quiet and we'd said hello and had a quick chitchat, but not majorly a long conversation. When our client handed us back the iPad, Christine, who was the lady who was sitting with us, said, do you mind if I have a look? And I said, yeah, of course. It'd be my pleasure. You know? So she had a look and she said, would you be willing to do that for me? And I said, well, of course we would, you know, this is what we're here for. Um, and so we arranged to do a couple of different bits. A couple of it is actually two different shoots, but we did a site visit to Le Baca, this area in Buenos Aires. Is that right? Yes. Bueno Aires. Was it? No. Yes. Yes, it was. Bueno Argentina. Yeah. Thank you. Are confused. So we, we did a couple of visits to this place in, uh, bueno Aires Laca to go and check it out for different locations. Uh, myself and you and Keith, who's our client, strictly speaking, who runs the, the photo. Um, company found all these locations and went the following day with Christine to go and explore this really beautiful, touristy area of leer. It's very characterful, it's very hot. Um, very intense actually. There's a lot going on and you do have to have your head on a swivel. Yes. it's quite notorious for pickpockets and thefts and so you do have to be careful. So, Sarah, I mean you, sorry, this is really weird. So I'm used those to talking on my own. So you and me, we were working as a team with Keith. Christine was not. Christine was stealing sausages from barbecue places and running them down alleyways that probably she shouldn't have been. Christine everywhere, but really where we wanted her to be, which was safe and in our site. Um, and if you remember, we kind of, um, we went round a corner. In fact, we were just heading back to the car. We, so Christina had arranged the driver and we'd gone round the corner, haven't we? And we were in this little street. And I just, I looked over the top of the cars to the street shops, the shop fronts on the other side of the road and thought that would make a great picture because the color of Christine's dress, the color of these shops, the whole scene would just be something interesting. But I'm shooting across the road through cars. Um, we've got Keith on the other side of the road with her. You are on the side of the road with me. Both of us trying to keep eyes everywhere 'cause we've now stepped out of the touristy bit. We are now in an area where, strictly speaking, you shouldn't be hanging around with a 10,000 pound camera. Yes. Um, so I dragged the shutter. I got, I got everything else. I wanted it and dragged the shutter in a gap between the cars as somebody walked past. And I have this shot of Christine killing herself, laughing, looking at the camera. Um. With somebody walking past and it has this real vibe of a street shot, a candid shot. It's not, it's been staged, but it's one of my favorite shots in the book because it's, to me, every time I look at it, and this is true of your clients too, and when you're listening, the photographers are listening to this. Remember this every picture, if you've created an experience around it, that picture. We'll hold memories for that client of yours. And it's true for me too. This experience was amazing. We're still in touch with Christine. She's desperate for us to go out and visit her in Texas. Um, but it was such a privilege, such a pleasure. So much laughter and that every time I open that page in the book, that's what it takes me it. I I'm with I love the colors, I love everything about it. And it's nice that it's such a lovely story too. crazy story. Sarah: So who do you think the book is for? Who do you think we'd pick it up and find useful? Paul: Well, I'm hoping another 50,000 people will be. I've, I don't, I don't have total control over that. Um. It's really this, I think there's something for almost any portrait interested photographer in there. Um, if you are already a pro, you're probably not gonna pay a lot of attention to the kit chapter at the beginning. That won't be your shtick. Um, but there will be stuff on posing and interactions and some of the post-production might be of interest. Um, if you are ready. You know, a supremely experienced photographer, you might like it simply 'cause the pictures are really beautiful. I still buy photo books because I will pick them up, look at the pictures and think, do you know what? I'm gonna use that idea. I'm gonna meld that into something else I'm doing because I like, I love seeing. Great photographs. If you are truly a beginner, there's enough in there to get you going. And some of the techniques are a little bit further out there, but mostly it builds on this idea that you have a camera, you have a client, you have your subject, and you're gonna create an experience. And then from that experience, great pictures. So I think it's broader than possibly the mastering portrait photography title gives it. Um, but it covers a little bit of all bases. And it certainly has enough in there to say, actually there's, there's stuff in there that if you do this, it really is quite, um, sophisticated. Yes. Do you, we don't know at this stage in terms of whether it'll be translated into other languages that that usually comes a year after, doesn't it? After the, you last time, say. It was only when I started getting emails in Italian. Yes. Um, that I noticed what happened. And we didn't know if you remember that it was in Chinese and Korean no. we started to put the marketing together for this book. Yes. And we asked the publisher AB, in absolute terms, how many copies have you sold? Yes. And they back with different language versions that we never knew about. Yeah. So, you know. Been been a, a journey of discovery, a journey. a journey. Yes. So, yeah, who knows? I, I really hope they do, uh, create some, uh, different language versions of it. 'cause there's nothing quite like seeing your work in Italian, Yes. So, And, and Chinese, I think that's the one I find the, the most intriguing. Sarah: So the book is officially launched next Tuesday, I believe. Is the 28th. The 28th. Um, so what, what's on the horizon next is what, what are you gonna be doing with the book and knows? Um, I mean, obviously the first thing we've gotta do is get through the launch of the book. Yes. Um, which is exciting. And obviously us two have been walking the studio trying to figure out how to tidy the whole place up. 'cause we haven't done a full on party probably since the last book. No. Or thereabouts. So we've we're inviting. Everybody who's featured in the book Yeah. Um, to a, a launch at the weekend. Yeah. Um, and we are refreshing all of the pictures in the studio, uh, to reflect the pictures that are in the book as well. And it's just, it'll be such a lovely thing to do and it's, I can't wait to see everything when it's up. Yeah. So that's, but next week's gonna be a bit fraught It's 'cause in the middle of all that, I think I've got five shoots to work my way through. Right. I don't sleep much. I a challenge. Yeah. I'm not, I'm I'm not being super, thankfully. Um, so there's that. And then, you know, once that gets rolling, of course I go back to our regular job. I'm judging for the British Institute. Professional photographers print competition straight after. So we've got. A big bash on the Saturday night. Yeah. Uh, for all of our, all the people in the book on the Sunday, we're inviting anybody's around to come and a studio open day, studio open day in the afternoon. And then at some point in that afternoon, I have to go all the way up to Preston Salubrious, uh, Preston, to go and begin the process of judging the print competition for the 2025 print masters. So a lot going on. And you're gonna be busy signing books as well. yeah, It's been a while since I've had to sit and do a big a book signing, but there's a load of that going on. Yeah. Uh, it's just lovely. exciting. It really is. Well, I think that just about brings us to the end of everything. So I've enjoyed being on the other side of everything. Sarah: So I'd just like to say, Paul, thank you ever so much for letting me do that and sitting on the other side of the mic today, um. We have got a limited number of copies here at the studio that Paul can sign, but they will be available at all. Good bookshops, um, with water zones. I think there's some competitions going where they will be with Graphistudio and with. Um. A professional photo. Yeah. Yep. So there's, there's lots of ways for you to get your hands on it and uh, we'd love to know what you think of it and um, especially if you've got the first version and seeing the second version, we'd love some feedback 'cause we are so proud of it. And especially with the pictures in there, and if you can tell us what's that, what's the picture in there that, that haven't been changed? That will be even better. There's no prize. So, no, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, it's a pleasure. And you know what you've gotta say now, don't you? What's that? If you've enjoyed this podcast, is it? No. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please head over to mastering portrait photography.com, which is full of articles. And as it happens, I'm doing all of the behind the scenes diagrams and stories for the images that are in this book. It'll probably take me 10 years to get there, but there's a couple of hundred of those. Uh, and of course, whatever else you do. be kind to yourself. Take care guys.  

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we have a coaching call with Laurel and Derrick. This call is such a good one because we cover ALL the big ideas behind the peaceful parenting approach, while applying them to real life scenarios in a home with three kids. Topics include sibling rivalry, nurturing our kids, self regulation, how to handle kids asking lots of questions and always wanting more, what parenting without punishment looks like, and more!**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:00 What it looks like when our children truly respect us* 9:00 7-year-old refusing to get dressed* 12:10 Why it is okay baby and nurture our kids* 14:00 Tuning into our own self regulation* 18:00 Mindset shifts to give our kids the benefit of the doubt* 19:30 How to handle sibling rivalry* 24:00 Don't try to make it a teachable moment* 38:00 When kids ask questions over and over* 41:00 Why kids always want more!* 45:00 Helping kids see how their actions affect other people* 55:00 Why kids lie and what to do* 57:00 Natural consequences, boundaries, and limits* 1:02 Peaceful Parenting MantrasResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Free Stop Sibling Fights E book* Free How To Stop Yelling at Your Kids e-coursexx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Derrick: Hi, good morning.Sarah: Hi Derek. Nice to meet you. Hi Laurel. Hi. Are you a firefighter, Derek? I'm—yeah, I'm actually—I see you've got your sweatshirt.Derrick: Yeah. Just a heads up, I may have to jump off if we get a call.Sarah: Okay. Well, so nice to meet you guys. So you've got three—boy, girl, girl. And what would you like to talk about today?Laurel: I think I just love your whole—I've sent Derek a couple things—but I just love your whole premise of peacefulness and remaining calm when it's easy to get angry. Mm-hmm. And just some tools for doing that. I guess like some basic things, because we would both like to say where, you know, we have like, you know, the streaks where we're all calm, calm, calm, and then just—and then her, yeah, limit. Yeah.And so yeah, just tools for when that happens. We have very typical age-appropriate kind of response kids, mm-hmm, that need to be told 80 times something. And so it's frustrating. And then how to help them kind of see—without bribing, without threatening discipline, without all of that. Yeah. Like how to have a better dialogue with our kids of teaching respect and teaching kind of “we do this, you do this.”Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Okay. So there's always gonna be situations where it's hard to stay calm, you know? Just being a parent—like of course your kids are gonna push your buttons sometimes. But rather than—so, we do always start with self-regulation.And what I mean by self-regulation isn't that you never get upset. It's that when you do get upset, you know how to calm yourself and take a minute, take a breath—whatever you need to do—so that you don't yell. Because yelling hurts our relationship with our kids. You mentioned respect. I think there's an old idea of respect that used to mean that kids were afraid of their parents, right?But real respect is that you care what another person thinks. Like, that's real respect. I don't want to do this because I don't want my dad or my mom to be unhappy with me—not that I'm afraid of what's gonna happen if I do it, but I care what they think and they care what I think. And that's how I define respect. True respect doesn't mean that you're afraid of somebody; it means that you care what they think, right?So when we yell, we chip away at that. Like yeah, we could get them to do what we want through yelling or threatening things or taking things away, but we're chipping away at our relationship with them. And that's really the only true influence.And as your kids are getting older, you're gonna see that you can control them when they're little, right? Because you can pick them up and move them from one place to another or whatever. But there's a famous quote by a psychologist that says, “The problem with using control when kids are young is that you never learn how to influence them, which is what you need as they get older.” Right? You need to be able to influence them, to get them to do what you would like them to do. And it's all about the relationship. That's really what I see as the most important thing.So back to what I was saying about yelling—yes, that's really important to be working on—but there's also: how do I be more effective so the kids will listen to me and I don't have to ask 80 times? How do I get their attention in an effective way? How do I get them to cooperate the first time or at least the second time?So it's a combination of learning how to calm yourself and stay calm when things are hard, and also being more effective as a parent—not asking 25 times, because that just trains them to ignore you. Like, “Oh, I don't have to do it until they yell,” or “I don't have to do it until they've asked me 25 times.”If there's something really unpleasant you had to do at work that you didn't want to do, you might also ignore your boss the first 24 times they asked you until you knew they were really serious, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, you wouldn't, but you know what I mean. If they can keep playing a little bit longer, they will keep playing a little bit longer.So I think what would be helpful is if you gave me some situations that have happened that you find challenging, and then we can do a little bit of a deeper dive into what you could have done instead, or what you could do next time if a similar thing comes up.Laurel: Yeah. I mean, for my daughter, for example, the middle one—she's so sweet, she's such a feeler—but then when she gets to the point where she's tired, hungry, it's all the things. She often doesn't wanna pick out her clothes. Something super simple like that.But when I'm making lunches and the other kids are getting ready and all the things, I just have to have her—I'm like, “You're seven, you can pick out clothes.” I give her some options, and then she'll just lay on the floor and start screaming, “You don't care! Why don't you pick out my clothes?”And then instead of me taking the time that I know I need to, I just tell her, “You have one minute or else this—so you lose this.” I just start kind of like, “This is yesterday.” You know, so she doesn't wanna get dressed, doesn't wanna get her shoes on. “You get my socks, you get all the big—” And then I end up picking her up, standing her up, “You need to get dressed.” And then both of us are frustrated.Sarah: Yeah. No, that's a great example.So first of all, whenever there's difficult behavior in our child, we try to look below the surface to see what's causing it. The symptom you see on the outside is a kid lying on the floor refusing to do something she's perfectly capable of doing herself. That's the iceberg part above the water. But what's underneath that?To me, I'm seeing a 7-year-old who has a 3-year-old sibling who probably does get help getting dressed, a capable older brother, and it's hard to give enough attention to three kids. What I see this as is a bid for attention and connection from you.I don't know if you listen to my podcast, but I did an episode about when kids ask you to do things for them that they can do themselves. Seven is a perfect age because you're like, “Oh my God, you're so capable of getting dressed yourself—what do you mean you want me to put your shoes on you?” But if you can shift your mind to think, Ah, she's asking me to do something she can do—she needs my connection and nurturing.So what if you thought, “Okay, I just spent all this energy yelling at her, trying to get her to do it. What if I just gave her the gift of picking her clothes out for her and getting her dressed?” It would probably be quicker, start your day on a happier note, and you would have met that need for connection.And yes, it's asking more of you in the moment, because you're trying to make lunches. But this is a beautiful example because you'll probably see it in other areas too—what's underneath this difficult behavior? Kids really are doing the best they can. That's one of our foundational paradigm shifts in peaceful parenting. Even when they're being difficult, they're doing the best they can with the resources they have in that moment.So when someone's being difficult, you can train yourself to think: Okay, if they're doing the best they can, what's going on underneath that's causing this behavior?I just want to say one more thing, because later on you might think, “Wait—Sarah's telling me to dress my 7-year-old. What about independence?” Just to put your fears aside: kids have such a strong natural drive for independence that you can baby them a little bit and it won't wreck them. Everybody needs a little babying sometimes—even you guys probably sometimes. Sometimes you just want Laurel to make you a coffee and bring it to you in bed. You can get your own coffee, but it's nice to be babied and nurtured.So we can do that safely. And I tell you, I have a 14-year-old, 17-year-old, and 20-year-old—very babied—and they're all super independent and competent kids. My husband used to say, “You're coddling them.” I'd say, “I'm nurturing them.”Laurel: Oh, I like that.Sarah: Okay. So I just wanted to say that in case the thought comes up later. Independence is important, but we don't have to push for it.Derrick: Yeah. No, I think that's super helpful. And I love—one of my good buddies just came out with a book called The Thing Beneath the Thing.Sarah: Oh, I love that.Derrick: It's such a good reminder. I think sometimes, like you addressed, Laurel is often a single mom and there is the reality of—she's gotta make lunch, she's gotta do laundry, she's gotta whatever. And sometimes there's just the logistical impossibility of, “I can't do that and this and get out the door in time and get you to camp on time, and here comes the carpool.”And so sometimes it just feels like there needs to be better planning. Like, “You just gotta wake up earlier, you gotta make lunch before you go to bed, or whatever,” to have the space to respond to the moment. Because the reality is, you never know when it's coming.Like, totally independent, and she wants to pick out her own clothes in one example—but then all these things creep up.Another way to describe what Laurel and I were talking about in terms of triggers is: I feel like we both really take a long time to light our fuse. But once it's lit, it's a very short fuse.Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Derrick: So it's like for me especially, I'm cool as a cucumber and then all of a sudden the wick is lit and I'll explode.Sarah: Yeah. I think that's really good to be aware of. The thing is, if you go forward from today and start looking—you're calm, calm, calm, calm, calm—sometimes what's actually happening is what my mentor calls gathering kindling.We don't realize it, but we're gathering kindling along the way—resentment, eye-roll frustration. If you can start tuning in a little bit, you'll see that yeah, you're not yelling, but maybe you're getting more frustrated as it goes on. That's when you can intervene with yourself, like, “Okay, I need to take a five-minute break,” or, “We need to shift gears or tap each other out.”Because it feels like it comes out of nowhere, but it rarely does. We're just not aware of the building process of gathering kindling along the way.Derrick: Yeah. No, that's helpful. I have two examples that maybe you can help us with. You can pick one that you think is more important.Sarah: Sure. And I just want to comment on one more thing you said before you go on—sorry to interrupt you. If it's annoying to have to dress a 7-year-old in the middle of your morning routine, you can also make a mental note: Okay, what's under the thing? What's under the difficult behavior is this need for more connection and nurturing. So how can I fill that at a time that's more convenient for me?Maybe 7:30 in the morning while I'm trying to get everyone out the door is not a convenient time. But how can I find another time in the day, especially for my middle child? I've got three kids too, and I know the middle child can be a bit of a stirring-the-pot kid, at least mine was when he was little, trying to get his needs met. So how can I make sure I'm giving her that time she's asking for, but in more appropriate times?Derrick: Yeah, no, that's helpful. I think part of my challenge is just understanding what is age-appropriate. For example, our almost 10-year-old literally cannot remember to flush the toilet.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Derrick: And it's like, “Bro, flush the toilet.” It's been this ongoing thing. That's just one example. There are many things where you're going, “You're 10 years old, dude, you should know how to flush the toilet.” And then all the fears come in—“Is he ADD?”—and we start throwing things out there we don't even know.But it seems so simple: poop in the toilet, you flush it when you're done. Why is that? And that'll light a wick pretty quick, the third or fourth time you go in and the toilet's not flushed.Sarah: Yeah.Derrick: And then you talk about it very peacefully, and he'll throw something back at you.Sarah: So do you have him go back and flush the toilet?Derrick: We do.Sarah: Okay, good. Because if you make it a tiny bit unpleasant that he forgot—like he has to stop what he's doing and go back and flush it—that might help him in a kind and firm way. Like, “Oh, looks like you forgot. Pause your video game. Please go back and flush the toilet.”Also, maybe put up some signs or something. By the sink, by the toilet paper. There are just some things that, if they're not important to kids, it's very hard for them to remember. Or if it's not…I can't tell you how many times I've told my boys, “Don't put wet things in the hamper.” They're 17 and 20 and it drives me insane. Like how hard is it to not throw a wet washcloth in the hamper? They don't care if it smells like mildew.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: It's very frustrating. But they're not doing it on purpose.Derrick: That's the narrative we write though, right? Like, you're just defiant, you're trying—because we've talked about this a million times. This is my desire.Sarah: And you feel disrespecedt.Derrick: Right.Sarah: That is so insightful of you, Derek, to realize that. To realize that's a trigger for you because it feels like he's doing it on purpose to disrespect you. But having that awareness and a mindset shift—he's not trying to give me a hard time. He's just absent-minded, he's 10, and he doesn't care if the poop sits in the toilet. He's just not thinking about it.Derrick: Yeah.I think the other example, which I'm sure is super common, is just: how do you manage them pushing each other's buttons? They can do it so quickly. And then it's literally musical chairs of explosive reactions. It happens everywhere. You're driving in the car, button pushed, explosion. The 3-year-old's melting, and Kira knows exactly what she's doing. Then Blake, then Kira. They just know. They get so much joy out of watching their sibling melt and scream. Meanwhile, you're in the front seat trying to drive and it's chaos.For me, that's when I'll blow my top. I'll get louder than their meltdown. And my narrative is: they're not even really upset, they're just turning it on to get whatever they want.Sarah: Classic sibling rivalry. Classic. Like, “How can I get Mom or Dad to show that they love me more than the other kid? Whose side are they gonna intervene on?” That's so classic.Kira came along and pushed Blake out of his preferred position as the baby and the apple of your eye. He had to learn to share you. Is it mostly Kira and Aubrey, or does everything roll downhill with all three?Derrick: It just triangulates and crosses over. They know each other's buttons. And you're right—it's always, “You always take her side. You never—”Sarah: Yes. And whenever you hear the words “always” and “never,” you know someone's triggered. They're not thinking clearly because they're upset and dysregulated.Sibling rivalry, or resentment, whatever you want to call it, is always about: “Who do they love more? Will my needs get met? Do they love me as much as my brother or sister?” That fear is what drives the button-pushing.It doesn't make sense that you'd pick a fight hoping your parent will choose you as the one who's right. But still, it's this drive to create conflict in hopes that you'll be the chosen one.So I could go over my sibling best practices with you guys if you want. That's really helpful for rivalry.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: Okay. Do you currently have any rules about property or sharing in your house?Laurel: Not officially. I mean—Derrick: We typically will say stuff like, “That's Kira's. If she doesn't want to share it with you, give it back.” But the problem is we have so much community property.Sarah: Okay. That's what I call it: community property. Yeah. So you're doing exactly the right thing with things that belong to one person. They never have to share it if they don't want to, and other people have to ask before they touch it. Perfect.And in terms of community property, I'd suggest you have a rule: somebody gets to use something until they're done. Period. Long turns.I didn't know this when my kids were little, and I had ridiculous song-and-dance with timers—“Okay, you can have it for 10 minutes and then you can have it for 10 minutes.” But that actually increases anxiety. You want to relax into your play, not feel like, “Oh, I've only got this for 10 minutes.”So if it belongs to everyone, the person using it gets to use it as long as they want. And you empathize with the other person: “Oh, I know your brother's been playing with that pogo stick for an hour. It's so hard to wait, isn't it? When it's your turn, you'll have it as long as you want.”So if you have good sharing rules and community property rules right off the bat, you take away a lot of opportunities for resentment to build upDerrick: My biggest question is just how do you intervene when those rules are violated?Sarah: You just calmly say something like, “Oh, I know you really, really wanna play with the pogo stick. You cannot push your brother off of it just because you want a turn.” I'm just making things up here, but the idea is: you can't push your brother off just because you want something. Then you go back to the family rules. You could even make a sign—I actually have one I can send you to print out—that says, “In our family, we get to use it as long as we want.”And then you empathize with the aggressor about how hard it is to wait. Keep going back to the rules and offering lots of empathy. If someone's being difficult, recognize that they're having a hard time.Laurel, when Derrick said, “You always…” or “You never…,” anytime you hear words like that, you know somebody's hijacked by big feelings. That's not the time to make it a teachable moment. Just empathize with the hard time they're having. Nobody ever wants to calm down until they feel empathized with, acknowledged, and heard. You can always talk about it later if something needs to be discussed, but in the moment of heightened tension, just acknowledge feelings: “Oh my goodness, you were doing this thing and then your brother came and took it. This is so hard.”I also have a little ebook with these best practices laid out—I'll send it to you.The third best practice is: always be the moderator, not the negotiator. If there's a fight between the kids, your goal is to help them talk to each other. Don't try to solve it or say who's right or wrong. Even if you're right and careful not to favor one child, your solution will always fuel sibling rivalry. The child who wasn't chosen feels slighted, and the one who was chosen might think, “Dad loves me best.”So my phrase is: “Be Switzerland.” Stay neutral, intervene in a neutral way, and help them talk to each other. Give each child a chance to speak. Do you want to give me an example we can walk through?Derrick: A lot of times it's not even about taking, it's about disrupting. Aubrey has this baby doll she's obsessed with. She carries it everywhere—it looks really real, kind of creepy. Blake will walk by, pull the pacifier out of its mouth, and throw it across the room. Instant meltdown. His thing is, he knows the rules and how to toe the line. He'll say, “I didn't take the baby, I just disrupted it.”Sarah: Right, right.Derrick: And then, “Deal with it.”Sarah: Yeah, okay. So that's not exactly a “be Switzerland” moment, because it's not a two-way fight. He's just provoking his sister to get a rise out of her. That's classic sibling rivalry. It also sounds like he worries you don't love him as much as his sisters. Does he ever say that out loud?Laurel: He has sometimes. His other big thing is he doesn't have a brother, but they have each other. He constantly brings that up.Sarah: That's what I call a chip on his shoulder. When he provokes her like that, it's because he has feelings inside that make him act out. He's not a bad kid; he's having a hard time. Picking fights is often an attempt to get rid of difficult feelings. If we have a bad day and don't process it, we might come home cranky or pick a fight—it's not about the other person, it's about us.So I'd suggest having some heart-to-hearts with Blake, maybe at bedtime. Give him space to process. Say, “It must be really hard to have two little sisters and be the only boy. I bet you wish you had a brother.” Or, “I wonder if it's hard to share me and mom with your sisters. I wonder if it's hard being the oldest.” Share your own stories: “I remember when I was growing up, it was hard to be the big sister.” Or Derrick, you could share what it was like for your older sibling.The same goes for Kira: “It must be hard being in the middle—your big brother gets to do things you can't, and your little sister gets babied more.” The point is to let them express their feelings so they don't have to act them out by provoking.That provocative behavior is just difficult feelings looking for a way out. Your role is to open the door for those feelings. Say things like, “I know this must be hard. I hear you. You can always talk to me about your feelings. All your feelings are okay with me.” And you have to mean it—even if they say things like, “I wish they didn't exist,” or, “I wish you never had that baby.” That's totally normal. Don't be afraid of it. Resist the urge to offer silver linings like, “But sometimes you play so well together.” It's not time for optimism—it's time for listening and acknowledging.You can also say, “I'm sorry if I ever did anything that made you feel like I didn't love you as much as your sisters. I couldn't love anyone more than I love you.” You can say that to each child without lying, because it's true. That reassurance goes to the root of sibling rivalry.Derrick: That's really helpful. I'd love your insight on some of the things we're already doing. Lately, I've realized I spend more time in the girls' room at bedtime. Blake has his own room. He's more self-sufficient—he can read and put himself to sleep. For the past year, I've been reading in the girls' room instead, since they need more wrangling. So I've tried to switch that and spend more time in Blake's room reading with him. We've also started doing “mom dates” or “dad dates” with each kid.Sarah: That's perfect! My final best practice is one-on-one time. You're on the right track. It doesn't have to be a “date.” Special Time is 15 minutes a day with each child, right at home. You don't need to go to the aquarium or spend money. Just say, “I'm all yours for the next 15 minutes—what do you want to play?” Try to keep it play-centered and without screens.Laurel: Sometimes when we call it a “mommy date,” it turns into something big. That makes it hard to do consistently.Sarah: Exactly. You can still do those, but Special Time is smaller and daily. Fifteen minutes is manageable. With little ones, you might need to get creative—for example, one parent watches two kids while the other has Special Time with the third. You could even “hire” Blake to watch Aubrey for a few minutes so you can have time with Kira.Laurel: That makes sense. I did think of an example, though. What frustrates me most isn't sharing, but when they're unkind to each other. I harp on them about family sticking together and being kind. For example, last week at surf camp, both kids had zinc on their faces—Blake was orange, Kira was purple. She was so excited and bubbly that morning, which is unusual for her. In front of neighbor friends, Blake made fun of her purple face. It devastated her. I laid into him, telling him he's her protector and needs to be kind. I don't want to be too hard on him, but I also want him to understand.Sarah: Based on everything we've talked about, you can see how coming down hard on him might make him feel bad about himself and worry that you don't love him—fueling even more resentment. At the same time, of course we don't want siblings hurting each other's feelings. This is where empathic limits come in.You set the limit—“It's not okay to tease your sister because it hurts her feelings”—but you lead with his perspective. You might say, “Hey, I know people with color on their faces can look funny, and maybe you thought it was just a joke. At the same time, that really made your sister feel bad.” That way, you correct him without making him feel like a bad kid.Do you think he was trying to be funny, or was he trying to hurt her?Laurel: I think he was. He'll also reveal secrets or crushes in front of friends—he knows it's ammo.Sarah: Right. In that situation, I'd first empathize with Kira: “I'm so sorry your brother said that—it never feels good to be laughed at.” Then privately with Blake: “What's going on with you that you wanted to make your sister feel bad?” Come at it with curiosity, assuming he's doing the best he can. If he says, “I was just joking,” you can respond, “We need to be more careful with our jokes so they're not at anyone's expense.” That's correcting without shaming.Laurel: I love that. Sometimes I'm trying to say that, but not in a peaceful way, so he can't receive it. Then he asks, “Am I a bad kid?” and I have to backtrack.Sarah: Exactly—skip the part that makes him feel like a bad kid. Sensitive kids don't need much correction—they already feel things deeply. Just get curious.Laurel: That makes sense. Correcting without shaming.Sarah: Yes.Laurel: We also tried something new because of the constant questions. They'll keep asking: “Can I do this? Can I watch a show?” We got tired of repeating no. So now we say, “I don't know yet. Let me think about it. But if you ask again, the answer will be no.” Is that okay?Sarah: I used to say, “If I have to give a quick answer, it's going to be no.” I'd also say, “You can ask me as many times as you want, but the answer will still be no.” With empathy: “I know it's hard to hear no, but it's still no.” Another thing I said was, “It would be so much easier for me to say yes. But I love you enough to say no.” That helped my kids see it wasn't easy for me either.Laurel: That's helpful. Another thing: our kids do so much—they're busy and around people a lot, partly because of our personalities and being pastors. We try to build in downtime at home, but often after a fun day they complain on the way home: “Why do we have to go to bed?” They don't reflect on the fun—they just want more.Sarah: That's totally normal. You could go to an amusement park, eat pizza and ice cream, see a movie, and if you say no to one more thing, they'll say, “We never do anything fun!” Kids are wired to want more. That's evolutionary: quiet kids who didn't ask for needs wouldn't survive. Wanting isn't a problem, and it doesn't mean they'll turn into entitled adults.Kids live in the moment. If you say no to ice cream, they fixate on that, not the whole day. So stay in the moment with them: “You really wanted ice cream. I know it's disappointing we're not having it.” Resist the urge to say, “But we already did all these things.”Laurel: I love that. We even started singing “Never Enough” from The Greatest Showman, and now they hate it. It feels like nothing is ever enough.Sarah: That's normal.Laurel: I also want to bring it back to peaceful, no-fear parenting. I can be hard on myself, and I see that in my kids. I don't want that.Sarah: If you don't want your kids to be hard on themselves, model grace for yourself. Say, “I messed up, but I'm still worthy and lovable.” Being hard on yourself means you only feel lovable when you don't make mistakes. We want our kids to know they're lovable no matter what—even when they mess up or bother their siblings. That's true self-worth: being lovable because of who you are, not what you do. That's what gives kids the courage to take risks and not stay small out of fear of failure. They'll learn that from your modeling.Laurel: That makes sense.Sarah: And I've never, ever seen anyone do this work without being compassionate with themselves.Laurel: Hmm. Like—Sarah: You can't beat yourself up and be a peaceful parent.Laurel: Yeah, I know. Because then I'd see them doing it. It's like, no, I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I purposely don't want you guys to be that way. Yeah. That's great. Those are all good things to think about. I think the other questions I can tie back to what you've already answered, like being disrespectful or sassiness creeping in—the talking back kind of stuff. And that's all from, I mean, it stems from not feeling heard, not feeling empathized with.Sarah: Totally. And being hijacked by big feelings—even if it's your own big feelings of not getting what you want. That can be overwhelming and send them into fight, flight, or freeze. Sassiness and backtalk is the fight response. It's the mild fight. They're not screaming, hitting, or kicking, but just using rude talk.Laurel: Hmm. And so same response as a parent with that too? Just be in the moment with their feelings and then move on to talking about why and letting them kind of—Sarah: Yeah. And empathizing. Just like, “Ah, you're really…” Say they're saucy about you not letting them have some ice cream. “You never let me have ice cream! This is so unfair! You're so mean!” Whatever they might say. You can respond, “Ugh, I know, it's so hard. You wish you could have all the ice cream in the freezer. You'd eat the whole carton if you could.” Just recognize what they're feeling. It doesn't have to be a teachable moment about sugar or health. You can just be with them in their hard time about not getting what they want. And they'll get through to the other side—which builds resilience.Laurel: How do you discipline when it's needed—not punish, but discipline? For example, a deliberate rule is broken, somebody gets hurt, or stealing—like when it's clear they know it was wrong?Sarah: You want to help them see how their actions affect other people, property, or the community. That's where they internalize right and wrong. If you give them a punishment for breaking something, that only teaches them how their actions affect them—not how their actions affect others. That makes kids think, “What's in it for me? I better not do this thing because I don't want to get in trouble,” instead of, “I better not do this because it will hurt my sister or disappoint my parents.” So punishments and imposed consequences pull kids away from the real consequences—like someone getting hurt or trust being broken.You really want to help them understand: “The reason why we have this rule is because of X, Y, Z. And when you did this, here's what happened.” If they have a problem with the rule, talk about it together as a family. That works much better than punishment.Laurel: We had an incident at church where our 10-year-old was talking about something inappropriate with another kid. The other parent reached out, and I feel like we handled it okay. We talked with him, he was open, and we discussed what was said. Then we apologized to that parent in person and had a conversation. It didn't feel like we were forcing him to do something bad or shaming him.Sarah: That's good—it's about making a repair. That's always the focus. Without knowing the whole situation, I might not have said apologizing to the parent, because technically the parent wasn't directly involved. But if your son was willing and it felt authentic, that's great. What matters is the outcome: repair. Sometimes parents suggest an apology to make the child feel ashamed so they'll “remember it,” but that's not helpful. The question is: does the apology or repair actually improve the situation? That's what you keep in mind.Laurel: Well, thanks for all your wisdom.Sarah: You're welcome. It was really nice to meet you both.Part 2:Sarah: Welcome back, Laurel and Derek. Thanks for joining again. How have things been since our first coaching call?Laurel: Yeah. I feel like we gained several really good nuggets that we were able to try. One of them was about my daughter in the mornings—not wanting to get dressed, feeling stuck in the middle and left out. I've gotten to stop what I'm doing and pay attention to her. Even this morning, she still had a meltdown, but things went faster by the end compared to me being stubborn and telling her to do it on her own.Sarah: So you dropped your end of the power struggle.Laurel: Yeah. And it felt great because I wasn't frustrated afterward. I could move on right away instead of also blowing up. If we both blow up, it's bad. But if she's the only one, she can snap out of it quickly. I can't as easily, so it usually lingers for me. This way, it was so much better.We've had some challenging parenting moments this week, but looking at them through the lens of making our kids feel worthy and loved helped us respond differently. One thing you said last time—that “the perpetrator needs empathy”—really stuck with me. I always felt like the misbehaving child should feel our wrath to show how serious it was. But we were able to love our kids through a couple of tough situations, and it worked.Derrick: For me, the biggest takeaway was the “kindling” metaphor. I've even shared it with friends. Before, I thought I was being patient, but I was just collecting kindling until I blew up. Now I recognize the kindling and set it down—take a breath, or tell the kids I need a minute. This morning on the way to soccer, I told them I needed a little pity party in the front seat before I could play their game. That helped me calm before reengaging.Sarah: That's fantastic. You recognized you needed to calm yourself before jumping back in, instead of pushing through already-annoyed feelings.Laurel: Yeah. We did have questions moving forward. We had a couple of situations where we knew our kids were lying about something significant. We told them, “We love you, and we need you to tell the truth.” But they denied it for days before finally giving in. How do we encourage truth-telling and open communication?Sarah: Kids usually lie for three reasons: they're afraid of getting in trouble, they feel ashamed or embarrassed, or they're afraid of disappointing you. Sometimes it's all three. So the focus has to be: we might be unhappy with what you did, but we'll just work on fixing it. When they do admit the truth, it's important to say, “I'm so glad you told me.” That helps remove shame.Natural consequences happen without your involvement. If they take money from your wallet, the natural consequence is that you're missing money and trust is broken. But adding punishments just teaches them to hide better next time.Derrick: How do you frame the difference between a consequence and a boundary? Like if they mess up in an environment and we don't let them back into it for a while—is that a consequence or a boundary?Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about limits. If they show they're not ready for a certain freedom, you set a limit to support them—not to punish. A consequence is meant to make them feel bad so they won't repeat it. A limit is about guidance and support.The way to tell: check your tone and your intent. If you're angry and reactive, it will feel punishing even if it's not meant to be. And if your intent is to make them suffer, that's a punishment. If your tone is empathetic and your intent is to support expectations, it's a limit.Derrick: That's helpful. Sometimes we beat ourselves up wondering if we're punishing when we're just setting limits. Your tone-and-intent framework is a good check.Sarah: And if you mess up in the moment, you can always walk it back. Say, “I was really angry when I said that. Let's rethink this.” That models responsibility for when we act out while triggered.Derrick: That's good.Sarah: You mentioned sibling rivalry last time. Did you try the “It's theirs until they're done with it” approach?Derrick: Yes—and it's like a miracle. It worked especially in the car.Sarah: That's great. I know car rides were tricky before.Laurel: What about mantras to help us remember not to let our kids' behavior define us as parents—or as people?Sarah: What you're talking about is shame. It's when we feel unworthy because of our kids' behavior or what others think. We have to separate our worth from our kids' actions. Even if your child is struggling, you're still a good, worthy, lovable person.Laurel: Almost the same thing we say to our kids: “You are worthy and lovable.”Sarah: Exactly. So when you feel yourself going into a shame spiral, remind yourself: “Even though my child did this thing, I am still worthy and lovable.” Hold both truths together.Laurel: Yes. That helps. One last question: mornings. School starts in a day, and we worry every morning will be a struggle with Kira. She resists everything—getting dressed, socks, breakfast. Then she's fine once we're in the car. How can we help her set her own boundaries about mornings?Sarah: It sounds like she gets anxious around transitions. She doesn't do well with being hurried. That anxiety overwhelms her, and she goes into fight mode—pushing back, lashing out.Laurel: Yes, that's exactly it.Sarah: So part of it is adjusting your routine—giving her more time in the morning. But another part is building resilience. The anti-anxiety phrase is: “We can handle this.” Remind her, “Even if it's not going how you wanted, you can handle it. We can do hard things.” Add in laughter to ease tension.And maybe accept that for now, you might need to spend 10 minutes helping her get dressed. That's okay. You can balance it by giving her extra nurturing at other times of the day so she doesn't seek it as much during rushed mornings.Derrick: That's good.Sarah: Thank you both so much. I've loved these conversations.Derrick: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: You're welcome. It's been wonderful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Devon Kuntzman, an ICF-certified coach and author of the new book Transforming Toddlerhood. We cover why toddlers are so misunderstood, and how to work with our toddlers by better understanding their needs and development. Tune in to learn better ways to work through car seat struggles, diaper changes, tooth brushing, throwing things, and more!**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:10 Why do toddlers have such a bad reputation?!* 10:00 Contractionary needs of toddlers* 11:00 What hard toddler behaviours are totally normal?* 13:00 Nuance around “limit setting” and power struggles* 19:30 Having unrealistic expectations for our toddlers* 24:00 Understanding crying* 29:00 Toddlers need for movement and bodily autonomy* 30:00 Car seat struggles* 31:15 Refusing diaper changes* 32:00 Tooth brushing* 35:00 Throwing things* 38:00 The problems with Time OutsResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums, End Power Strugglers, and Raise Resilient Kids --- Without Losing your Mind * Devon's website xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREInterview transcript:Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today's guest is Devon Kuntzman, who is an expert on all things toddler. We discussed why toddlers get a bad rap—why they can be really challenging—and what's going on with them developmentally. Devon has so much insight into how to understand your toddler better, and therefore how to make life with them easier by knowing how to support them.We also talked about mysterious toddler behavior, and I asked her the questions I get most from you—what to do in tricky situations like car seats, teeth brushing, diapers, and more. You are going to finish this episode with a deeper understanding of your toddler and a deeper appreciation of these wondrous and sometimes challenging little beings.Even if you don't have a toddler anymore, you might find it interesting—as I did—to understand in hindsight exactly why they acted the way they did. And if you don't have a toddler anymore but you do know someone with a toddler—that's ages one through four—send this podcast on over to them. I'm sure they're going to find it really, really helpful. Devon is just wonderful.Okay, let's meet Devon.Sarah: Hey Devon, welcome to the podcast.Devon: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.Sarah: Me too. I'm so excited to talk about your new book that's coming out. But before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?Devon: Yes. So, I am Devon Kuntzman, and I'm an ICF certified coach, toddler expert, and the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood. I'm also a mama to a toddler and now an author with a book coming out October 21st called Transforming Toddlerhood as well.I really started Transforming Toddlerhood in 2018 to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible. Yes, toddlerhood is very, very challenging developmentally for so many reasons, but it's also a critical developmental period. If we just go into it white-knuckling it, bracing ourselves for the worst, we actually start to miss the magic of this developmental period and the opportunity to set our kids up for success in the long run.The first five years of life set the foundation for brain development and social-emotional development for years to come.Sarah: I love that. And actually, I love the toddler stage. I know a lot of people find it really challenging, and I can see why, but also, as you said, it is really magical. They're such interesting little creatures, and I just love that stage.So, your book is coming out October 21st, and we would encourage anyone listening to pre-order it. I was so excited to read your book because, when I was reading it, I was thinking, “You know what this is? It's like a perfect peaceful parenting primer, except everything is focused on this age group.”There are a lot of great peaceful parenting books out there, but they don't focus on this age group. And this age group is so specific. I don't know if that's what you were intending to write when you wrote it. If you weren't intending to, I think that's what you did.Devon: Yes. The reason I wrote this book is because we have so many parenting books out there—amazing books that talk about peaceful parenting, respectful parenting, and all of these things. But none of them are truly tailored to the toddler years.At the same time, I have parents DMing me every day asking me so many different questions, and I can see the desperation of these parents. They're searching on Instagram, they're Googling, they're trying to find the answers to these very real, challenging problems in their lives. And there wasn't just one place to go to get all of these answers.That's why I wrote Transforming Toddlerhood. It's an all-in-one, comprehensive, easy-to-read guide that truly covers just about every challenge you might have throughout toddlerhood. Whether it's healthy, developmentally appropriate discipline, being on a different page from your parenting partner, your child whining, struggling with parental preference, or introducing a new sibling—I really cover everything in this book.I wanted parents to have a place they could go to get quick answers that were trusted, so they didn't have to search everywhere for them.Sarah: Yeah, you absolutely did it. You succeeded at your goal. I get lots of questions about toddlers too—in my coaching and in my communities—and every single one of the questions that I get was in the book. That was great.So, I encourage people to go out and get it. I'm actually going to order a copy for my husband's cousin and his wife. They have a little girl who's about 15 or 16 months now, so it'll be perfect for them.Devon: Perfect.Sarah: So, toddlers—as you mentioned before—have a bad rap, right? You know, the “terrible twos,” the “horrible threes,” or whatever people call them. Why do you think that is? And maybe tell us a little bit about what's going on developmentally. I think those two answers are probably connected.Devon: I am so excited to answer this question, because this is a question I always ask everyone who comes on my annual summit. And I'm so excited to get to answer it myself.I really feel that toddlerhood is so challenging for parents because it's the first time your child is realizing that they're a separate entity from you. And at the same time, you're realizing your child is a separate entity from you as well.The whole point of toddlerhood is for your child to become their own separate individual. And the way they do that is through behaviors that delineate a line between your toddler and yourself. They're going to say “no.” They're going to push back. They're going to have their own agenda.We start seeing this even as early as nine months old, with a child who doesn't want to get their diaper changed. Or you have a 12-month-old—you ask them to come over, they laugh and run the other direction. Or you have a 14-month-old who thinks you're moving too slowly, or doesn't like what you're doing, and then they hit you on the head.It's really the first time we move out of a purely caregiving role into what I like to call a really active parenting role, where we have to decide how we're going to respond to these behaviors.I think the bigger challenge is that we're looking at these behaviors through a logical lens with fully mature brains. So, we label these behaviors as bad or wrong. But really, all the behaviors that drive us crazy are developmentally appropriate behaviors for toddlers.Because of that mismatch—between our expectations of what we think is typical and what our toddlers are actually doing—it creates a lot of frustration. It creates fear spiraling: “Are they always going to be this way? Is my child going to grow up to be a bully?” X, Y, Z. All of that makes parenting this age group really, really challenging.Sarah: Yeah, I was just talking to someone this morning who has a 2-year-old and a new baby—which, of course, as you know, exacerbates the challenges of toddlers when you're adding to your family.I have noticed anecdotally that people tend to think two or three are the hardest years, and it almost always comes back to when they had their next child. If they had them two years apart, they found two harder. If they had them three years apart, they found three harder.This mom was just telling me about some struggles, and I said, “Yeah, your daughter is at that stage where she has her own ideas about things she would like to do or have. And it's combined with a lack of logic, perspective, and brain development.” It's like a perfect storm: “I know what I want, but I don't have any experience in life or brain development to be able to express it in a different way.”Devon: Yes, exactly. And another challenge that's really happening in toddlerhood—which comes through in their behavior—is this idea of contradictory needs.As I was saying, your toddler is trying to become their own person. They want to be independent. They're developmentally driven to have a sense of control, feel capable, and exert their will. But at the same time, they're highly reliant on the adults in their life to meet their social and physical needs.So even though these developmental needs are so strong, they still need you—that safe and secure base—to help meet their emotional and physical needs. Toddlers are constantly trying to balance these opposing needs, and that really comes out in contradictory, challenging behavior that can drive us crazy.Sarah: Yeah, I love that. I remember that so well—that “I want to do it by myself. No, I want you to do it for me.” The contradictory needs. That's such a beautiful way to put it.Devon: Yeah.Sarah: What is something you hear all the time that you find yourself saying, “Oh, that's totally normal for toddlers”? What's something parents don't know is normal, but you find yourself reassuring them that it is?Devon: Yes. Basically, the behaviors we as adults really don't like, that we think are inappropriate. Yes, in our logical, fully mature adult brains, hitting, biting, throwing, kicking, screaming, crying—all of these things—feel wrong.But if you think about it, babies' only way of communicating is to cry. Then, as toddlers start to grow, they go through a lot of physical development. They start communicating through their behaviors.For example, if you have a toddler throwing food from their high chair at 15 or 18 months old, they might be experimenting with cause and effect: “If I drop this food, what happens? Does the dog pick it up? How do my parents respond?” They're experimenting and exploring, which is very appropriate.Or take hitting and biting. Toddlers, especially one- and two-year-olds, cannot say, “I don't like this. I'm feeling frustrated.” So instead, they hit you or bite you.I just want parents to know: behavior is not good or bad. We have to step away from that dichotomous lens. Behavior is communication. Once we understand that, we can ask: “What skill does my child need to learn to be successful here?” instead of “What punishment do I need to give to make them listen or to teach them a lesson?”Sarah: Yes—or not only, “What skill?” but also, “What support does my child need to meet my expectation?” Right? Because sometimes the skill's not going to come for a long time with a toddler. But the support is something you can give them.Devon: I love that. This comes up a lot—the idea of “My toddler's not listening to me.” We set the limit, and then we expect our toddlers to just fall in line, follow through, and listen.But the truth is, we need to ask: “What support does my toddler need to meet this limit I'm setting?” We often think saying the limit is the end of our job, but it's actually the beginning.Setting the limit is step one. Then we have to help our kids follow through on that limit—especially the younger they are or the more unmet needs they have in that moment. If they're tired, hungry, overstimulated—then they're going to need even more help to follow through.Sarah: Yes. And I'm going to jump ahead in my list of questions. I was going to ask you about power struggles later, but I want to ask now since you just mentioned limits.I find parents sometimes get too hung up on limits—not that limits aren't important, because they are—but they often get too attached to their own sense of what the limit should be.I love that when you were writing about power struggles, you suggested starting with the question: “What's the goal here?” I'd love for you to talk about power struggles and limits through that lens. Because, as I mentioned this morning to a parent of a 2-year-old, there's so much a 2-year-old has no control over in their life. We want to think about how we can be flexible about the rest.So maybe just talk about your lens of power struggles a little bit, starting with that “What's the goal here?” I love that.Devon: Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this subject.When we ask ourselves, “What's the goal here?” the main thing to consider is: are we trying to win? Because if you're battling your toddler to win, then you've probably lost sight of the bigger picture—which is: How do you want to show up as a parent? What relationship are you trying to create? What support are you trying to give your child? What skills do they need to learn?When we get caught up in trying to win, we're in our stress response. The more committed we get to winning, the more tightly we get locked in the power struggle. And then everyone's just on their own emotional roller coaster.The reality is, it takes two people to be in a power struggle. And if you're waiting for your toddler to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, I'll do what you want,” you'll be waiting a long time. Toddlers are developmentally driven to exert their will and be their own person. They're likely to double down.And toddlers can be really persistent. So we have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture. Instead of being so attached to one way of doing something, we can pivot in an empowered way.That might mean moving forward and letting your toddler follow you. Maybe it's giving them a choice between two things within your boundaries. Maybe it's saying, “When you brush your teeth (or pick up this toy), then we can go outside (or read a book).”There are so many different tools we can use to pivot out of power struggles. Because quite frankly, we're the adults. We have to be the leaders and guides in these moments. Our toddlers aren't going to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, sorry.”Sarah: Yes. And the other thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is, if we're not modeling flexibility, how are our kids going to learn it? If we can't be flexible as parents, then how will our kids learn to be flexible?So often parents say, “My kid is so rigid, they're not flexible at all.” And then you listen to the parent a little, and it sounds like they're also being pretty rigid with their child.I think finding those graceful sidesteps—what you're talking about—is so important. It's not about someone winning and someone losing, but about how we can still get to the goal we're trying to reach.Devon: Exactly. And this is a very Montessori-aligned thought: we as parents have to create the container, the foundation. But within those boundaries, there are a million ways something can happen and get done.So, we can give our child freedom within the boundaries. Of course they still need our guidance, but the key is to avoid backing out in a way that says, “Fine, you win.” Instead, we ask: how can we give them a sense of control within our boundaries? That way their developmental need for autonomy is met, while we're still in charge overall.Sarah: Okay. Going back to expectations—one thing I read in your book really struck me. You cited research showing that half of parents believe kids are capable of self-control and milestones earlier than they actually are.I find that too—parents' expectations are often way too high for the age their child is, or for where they are developmentally.So, how do you know if your expectations are out of whack? And what happens—what are the negative things that can happen—when they are?Devon: I always say we typically underestimate our child's physical abilities and overestimate their social-emotional capabilities and impulse control.There's a lot of research and polls showing this is the case. And when we hold unrealistic expectations, we get really frustrated, because we think our toddler is being “bad,” doing something they shouldn't be doing developmentally.Then we turn it inward: “I must be doing a bad job. I'm messing up.”The best way to know if your expectations are appropriate is by looking at your child's behavior over time—over several days or a week. What's really happening in those moments? If you see a consistent pattern, you can start to say, “Okay, maybe I'm asking too much of my child.”That doesn't mean you just throw the expectation out the window and say, “Too bad, I'll try again next year.” It means they need more support.So you scaffold the skill. For example, something like getting dressed takes a lot of planning and coordination. It's a skill that needs to be built over time. We need to start transferring those skills to our children—with our support.So when your expectations are too big, you don't throw them out completely. You ask: how can I support my child to get where I need them to be?Sarah: Yeah. I always talk about when there's the gap between your expectations and the reality, a lot of conventional parenting is like, “Okay, well what threat or consequence do I need to close that gap?” But I always think about just like, what support do we need to close the gap between the expectations and reality?And of course, sometimes I think you do—there is a place for throwing expectations out the window. Because sometimes they're so far off that it's better to let go of the expectation than to try to get your kid to do it.Or, you know, I think resources can go up and down. One day your kid might be able to do something, and the next day their resources might be a lot lower and they can't manage. We have to be flexible.Devon: For the parent too. There are going to be days when we're more resourced, and days when we didn't sleep well. Maybe our toddler was up at 2:00 AM and we're tired. There are days when we just feel like there's too much to do and not enough time. Days when we have our own feelings, emotions, and needs that need attention, and there's not a lot of space for that.That's where we really just need to have compassion for ourselves and for our toddlers, and really give each other the benefit of the doubt—knowing that we're doing the best that we can. Then we can start working from that place: right now, we're doing the best we can in this moment. What's the next step to getting where we need to be?I didn't mention this in the book, but something I talk about a lot with my private clients is that oftentimes we want to jump from A to Z. And that's a really big leap, right? We want to leap across the Grand Canyon, when really what we want to do is step across on stepping stones. Move from A to B, B to C, C to D. That's how we eventually get to where we need to be.This is true across the board when we're thinking about expectations, skills, and things of that nature. So when we don't try to do it all at once, we're going to have more realistic expectations and we're going to be less frustrated.Sarah: Yeah.Devon: That makes so much sense.Sarah: I love also that you really, in the book, normalize toddler behavior. You mentioned before, throwing—and at one point, as I was reading your book, I wondered, “I wonder if she's going to talk about play schemas.” And then you had the section on play schemas.So much of what toddlers do, parents just don't know is normal. Like you were talking about throwing food off the highchair. I always remind parents of the trajectory schema—how does the food move through space, or what happens when I drop this, and learning about gravity.Speaking of normalizing, one of the things that I loved in your book was when you talked about avoiding positive dismissiveness. I loved how you addressed that—when parents say that kids are crying for no reason. Can you talk about that a little bit, what to avoid, and what to do instead?Devon: Yeah. I decided to dedicate a chapter to crying because crying is such an important communication tool for kids. Beyond that, research shows that crying is actually beneficial to our bodies. It helps release hormones that make us feel better.So crying serves a lot of purposes. When we look at crying as “fake crying” or “crying for no reason,” it really shortchanges a normal biological process, a normal way of communication for young children. It also dismisses a child's needs.Now, I will tell you, it is hard to hear your child cry. It is so hard. I had a baby that cried for hours on end—I'm talking five-plus hours a day. So I've heard my fair share of crying, probably enough for ten lifetimes.It's really hard for me, even now with my toddler, to hear him cry. But knowing that you're not a bad parent and there's nothing wrong if your child is crying—that this is actually an emotional release—is super helpful.We don't want our kids to shove it down. Instead of saying, “You're fine, you're fine”—which usually comes from a good place, because we just want our kids to feel better—we can say things like, “That must have been hard,” or, “That was unexpected,” or, “Oh, you fell down and scraped your knee. I'm sorry that happened.”This creates emotional connection and helps build emotional resilience.Sarah: I love that. Listeners to this podcast will have heard me talk a lot about emptying the emotional backpack. That's what you're talking about too—crying might not even be about the thing that just happened. It might just be how they're releasing pent-up stresses, tensions, and big feelings they've been carrying around.And the second part of what you're talking about is really empathy, right? It's so hard because we don't always get why something is so upsetting—like you cut the sandwich wrong, or the muffin is broken in half and they want it whole.But I always tell parents, it's appropriate for little kids to have big feelings about small things. That's their life perspective right now. They don't have big adult problems like we do; they just have toddler problems. And to them, those are just as big.Devon: Yeah. And I think it also really stems from this idea of a lack of control. A lot of crying isn't really about the thing that happened—it's just the release of all the pent-up stuff, and that was the last straw.But why that becomes the last straw—like cutting the sandwich wrong or peeling the banana when they didn't want you to—is because toddlers have so little control over their lives. Yet this is the stage where they're craving control so badly, as they're differentiating themselves and becoming their own person.So that little thing, like peeling the banana when they didn't want you to, just reinforces the lack of control they feel—and that's what sends them over the edge.Sarah: That makes so much sense. I just have so much compassion and empathy for toddlers. I think toddlerhood and middle school are the hardest times of childhood.Okay, let's shift into some tips, because I'm going to use you to ask some of the questions I get all the time. These have been the questions on repeat for the last 12 years I've been doing this.Here's what I hear:My kid won't get in the car seat—or they cry when they're in the car seat.They don't want their diapers changed, even if it's really wet or dirty.They don't want me to brush their teeth.They won't stop throwing things.So if you want to lump some of those together, go for it—or take them one at a time. I'd love to hear your advice on those situations.Devon: Absolutely. Most of these have to do with the toddler's developmental drive to experiment and explore—and that happens through movement. Couple that with bodily autonomy: kids know inherently that they are in charge of their bodies.You can't force a child to eat, use the bathroom, or fall asleep. They are 100% in control of their bodies. That idea—that control is an illusion—is really tough for toddler parents to reckon with. But toddlers are great at teaching us this.The faster we accept that control is an illusion, and that instead we are partners who have to work with our children, the better things will go. At the same time, we are the adults, and we are in charge. Sometimes we do have to cross a child's bodily autonomy to keep them safe and healthy.So let's go through the examples.Car seats: Toddlers don't like being restricted—in a high chair, stroller, or car seat. Every toddler will push against this at some point. It can last for a while and come in phases.Giving your child a sense of control helps: let them climb in, let them choose whether you buckle them or they do it, let them clip the chest strap. Play a silly song as a celebration when they're in. Keep special toys in the car that they only get to play with there.Also, start earlier than you think you need to, so you're not rushing. But in the end, sometimes we do have to keep them safe by buckling them in. If we go against their autonomy, we need to talk them through what's happening, support their emotions, and try again next time.Diaper changes: When toddlers start refusing diaper changes, it means they're ready for something new. They want to move from a passive bystander to an active participant in their toileting journey.The first step is to change them standing up in the bathroom. Teach them how to push down their pants, undo the diaper tabs, or lean forward so you can wipe them. Yes, it's harder to clean them up this way, but it gives them control.Tooth brushing: Toddlers want control here too. I recommend three toothbrushes—one for each of their hands and one for you.Sarah: I remember letting my kids brush my teeth with my toothbrush while I brushed theirs.Devon: Exactly! That's perfect. Another tip: start brushing your own teeth in front of them from a young age. Don't put pressure on them; let them get interested in what you're doing.If it's become a big power struggle, change up the environment. We often brush my son's teeth in his bedroom, with his head in my lap—it's actually easier that way. Change of scenery can make a big difference.Sarah: I'll share a tip that worked with my kids—we made up a story about “Mr. Dirt” who lived in their mouths, and every night we brushed him out. They loved hearing about his adventures while we brushed.Devon: I love that. That's playfulness—and playfulness creates connection, which creates cooperation. Play is the language of toddlerhood. The more we can tap into that, the better things go.Sarah: Yes! I'm surprised we got this far without specifically calling out playfulness—it's the number one tool in the toolbox for working with toddlers.Devon: Exactly. Playfulness, role play, brushing a doll's teeth first, or letting your child brush yours—it all helps toddlers feel powerful and understood.Sarah: Okay, the last challenge: throwing things. I talked to a young couple who wanted to make a “no throwing” rule in their house. I told them I didn't think that would work, since it's such a developmental need. How do you manage throwing when it could be unsafe or destructive?Devon: Great question. I talk about this in my book when I explain the recipe for effective discipline: connection, limits, and teaching skills.First, get curious about what's driving the behavior—throwing can mean so many things. Then, set clear limits: it's not okay to throw breakables or throw at people. Finally, teach skills and alternatives.Sometimes you can't expect a two-year-old to regulate in the heat of the moment, so give them safe alternatives: a basket of balled-up socks, or paper they can throw into a laundry basket. This meets the need within your boundaries, while you also work on calming skills in calmer moments.Sarah: That's so helpful. Now, can you talk about why you don't recommend timeouts, and why you prefer time-ins instead?Devon: Yes. Timeouts are usually used as punishment—to teach a lesson or stop a behavior. But that's shortsighted. Behavior is communication, and if we don't understand what it's telling us, it will keep popping up—like a game of whack-a-mole.Also, kids often escalate in timeout, because they're being cut off from their safe base—you. They need you to help them calm down.That's why I recommend time-ins instead. With time-ins, you're still upholding limits and keeping everyone safe, but you're staying with your child, supporting them, and helping them regulate. This builds long-term skills and emotional resilience.Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for coming on and for writing this book. I really encourage anyone who is a toddler parent—or who knows one—to pre-order your book. It's a fantastic addition to the peaceful parenting world, and so specific to toddler needs and development.Before I let you go, here's the question I ask all my guests: If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?Devon: Gosh. I waited a long time to have a child, and I had a vision of how I wanted things to go. But I had a child with a lot of extra needs, and the things I thought would happen didn't. So I would tell myself to loosen my expectations, be grateful for the moments I have, and be flexible in how needs get met.Sarah: I love that. Perfect advice for parents of toddlers especially. Thanks so much, Devon.Devon: Thank you! You can find me on Instagram at @transformingtoddlerhood, or on my website, transformingtoddlerhood.com/book for preorder info and bonuses.Sarah: We'll put the link in the show notes. Your book is comprehensive and very readable—even for me, far past the toddler years. Great job, Devon.Devon: Thank you. That was my whole goal.Thanks for reading Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack! This post is public so feel free to share it.>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Desireé B. Stephens about her 10 conscious steps to talking to kids about global crisis. **If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice. You can find the private feed URL for the ad-free version in your Substack account settings under “manage subscription”.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:30 What inspired Desiree to write about talking to kids about global crisis* 9:50 1- Start with consent not control* 12:30 How to rest, reset, resist* 15:00 2- Ask, don't assume* 16:34 3- Name the reality, not the details* 20:24 4- Honour their hidden hives* 24:00 5- Let them see your grief with boundaries* 28:00 6- Link emotions to actionable compassion* 31:00 7- Revisit, don't one and done* 35:00 8- Build their critical consciousness* 39:00 9- Co-creating boundaries for when it's too much* 42:00 10- Root it all in relationship, not rhetoricResources mentioned in this episode:* Screen Free Audio Book Player https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto* The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership* Concious Parenting for Social Justice Collective https://parentingdecolonized.com/join-the-collective/* IG post: Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desiree B Stephens * https://desireebstephens.bio/digitalproductsConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/* Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup* YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194* Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com * Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting* Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.phpxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREInterview Transcript: Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desireé B. Stephens: Episode 205Sarah: Today's guest is Desiree B. Stephens, and we are going to be talking about 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. With everything that's going on in the world right now, it's so important to know how to effectively talk to our kids about what's happening and to help them become social change-makers, rather than wanting to turn away from everything scary.I loved this conversation with Desiree. I was inspired by her and the work that she does, and I thought it would be a great overlap to have her come on and talk to us about this topic.On her Instagram, she asks the question: Ever wonder how decolonization and whole self-healing can transform our world? She and I would both agree that adding conscious parenting—or peaceful parenting—to that is really important. It's one way we are changing the world. Slowly, yes, but still changing the world.Hey Desiree, welcome to the podcast.Desiree: Hello. How are you, Sarah?Sarah: Good. I'm so glad! We've crossed paths a couple of times, but we've never really sat down to talk. I'm so glad to have this opportunity.Desiree: I am as well.Sarah: So, tell us about who you are and what you do.Desiree: Okay. Well, my name is Desiree B. Stephens, and I used to open up on TikTok and say, I pathologize whiteness as a system. What I do is believe in dismantling systems through somatic and trauma-informed practices and education. We work on removing shame spirals and touching on the root of the oppression that intersects us all.Sarah: Awesome. I found you—well, I knew you from Yolanda Williams—but I also came across an article you wrote on Substack that someone forwarded to me. That's what we're going to be talking about today.But I was also looking at your Substack, and you write about everything from parenting to history, decolonization, and politics. You cover a lot of really interesting topics. I encourage everyone to check it out—we'll link it in the show notes.The article that really piqued my interest was titled 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. This is something I get asked about a lot, and honestly, I've never felt like I had great answers. Now you do! So I'm excited to hear about your steps. I think conscious parents are really struggling with this right now. I know I am, both personally and as a professional.My kids are older, so they have a little more understanding—not that it makes it easier, but at least they can use logic a little bit more. Whereas little kids are like, but why?You opened your article with the line: The world is burning and our children are absorbing the smoke. How do we talk to them about war, injustice, genocide, climate collapse, and economic fear? Just a few light dinner table topics, right?So what inspired you to write this? And then let's get into your ten steps.Desiree: What inspired me was simply that I am a conscious parent. I think we've all traversed different parenting styles over the years. I've been parenting since I was 17 years old. My youngest just started first grade, and over the years I've always had conversations with my children about what's happening in the world.I think where parents struggle is that it's innate to want to protect our children. Protection often looks like insulation. But in this current climate—having parented through the ‘90s and now parenting kids who have access to the entire world—it doesn't matter if we talk about it or not. They're going to find out. They can get on TikTok, and parental controls don't stop that.So I asked myself: how can I do this in a trauma-informed way? How can I honor their bodies? Because, like you said, we can't logic our way through colonization, genocide, starving people, or climate collapse. None of it makes sense.What we can do is trust what our kids are feeling, what they're going through, and what they're hearing from friends. So I began sitting down with them and asking: What did you hear about today? How did that make you feel? Where did that show up in your body?Our bodies tell us something. If they say, “My tummy hurt,” that's anxiety. For example, if a child hears about a school shooting, then suddenly doesn't want to eat and complains of a stomach ache, they're not sick—they're anxious. I can't tell them, You're safe, there's a security guard at school. That doesn't erase their fear.So the question is: how do we process those feelings and help them engage in social justice within a framework that makes sense to them—usually, the home?Sarah: That's such a good point—that none of it makes sense, and that the fear is real. I love that one of your steps is asking them what they already know. But before that, you have a step that I think is so important: start with consent, not control. Can you talk about that?Desiree: I believe in consent in all things. We often talk about consent in the context of sex—like, don't touch me here, that's my no-no square. But consent is much broader. A touch on the shoulder could be the lead-in to inappropriate behavior. Most children who are harmed are hurt by someone they know, who has built trust.So for me, consent extends to all things—including conversations. That ties into the second step, which is: What have you heard? But it begins with consent: Would you like to talk about this today? How are you feeling? Do you have questions?It lets them lead and make a choice. Because sometimes, even I don't want to talk about it. Sometimes I just want to eat dinner or relax, not think about the world burning. And if I feel that way, surely they do too.Sarah: You know what I love about that? I think of my oldest child, who's 24 now. From day one, he carried this existential angst. He cares so deeply about everything we're talking about, but he's always had a hard time putting it down.As he was growing up, I kept saying, It's amazing that you care so deeply and you go to protests, but you don't have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. That's such an important lesson—and it's embedded in your idea of starting with consent.Desiree: Exactly. Right now, I'm in what I call a season of rest, reset, resist. On my Substack, I've been writing lessons on these themes: two on resting, two on resetting, and two on resisting.There's no way this work can be sustainable if we live in constant crisis. If we only focus on the terror, we lose the joy. But joy and rest are also acts of resistance. They are resilience.For example, in my work on decolonization, I remind people that these systems have existed for thousands of years. And yet—we're still here. That should bring joy. It's proof of resilience.White-bodied people who are new to anti-racism work or activism often burn out quickly. They go to every march, every meeting, until they're exhausted. And I ask: When are you just going to take a walk? When are you going to gather with friends and celebrate?This doesn't have to feel like an emergency all the time. That sense of urgency is one of the pillars of supremacy culture. Not everything is urgent. We're still here.Sarah: Yeah.Desiree: And that's why it's so important to balance. Otherwise, kids end up feeling crushed under the weight of global crisis, on top of their own developmental changes. Sometimes the best response is: Okay, baby, breathe.Sarah: Yes. And so, by starting with consent, you give them the choice to say, Tonight I'm just going to play video games, even if there was a school lockdown earlier that day.Desiree: Exactly. That's fine. Because later is coming. These conversations are not going away.Activism has to be sustainable. You have to know your capacity. Not everyone can march. Some people write emails. Some people color with their kids and talk about it during that time. That's valid too.Sarah: I love that.Desiree: Coloring with your kids, reading children around the world books, talking about culture—these are beautiful, simple ways to weave in social justice. It doesn't have to be violent or traumatizing.Sarah: Yes—because if you traumatize people, they shut down. And then nothing gets done.So, your second step is ask, don't assume. Ask them what they've heard, what they know, and how they feel. And your third step is name the reality, not the details. Tell us about that.Desiree: This changes with age. I have children from adulthood down to six years old. So, for example, when my kids ask about expensive sneakers, I explain: They cost $3 to make, using child labor. That's why I won't pay $300 for them.That's naming the reality—without overwhelming them with traumatic details. Similarly, with Gaza, I don't need to show my kids graphic images of starving babies. That's traumatizing. The reality is enough: This is happening. People are suffering.Children don't need trauma dumps. We can speak clearly without overwhelming them. For a younger child, it could be as simple as: Some leaders are hurting people, and some people are standing up to stop it.Sarah: Right. And you use examples at home too, like play-fighting among siblings. One child steps in and says, That's too rough. That's social justice on a small scale.Desiree: Exactly. Small examples at home translate to global understanding. We can show kids that standing up for others matters. And then we help them find their own capacity—whether it's writing letters, talking about it, or making a video.Sarah: Yes. And if you just pour out trauma, kids will shut down.Desiree: Exactly.Sarah: So step four is honor their hidden hives. What does that mean?Desiree: Kids have their own communities, their own secret lives. Online especially, they connect globally—with Palestinian friends, Jewish friends, Congolese friends, kids in red states, kids with MAGA parents. Their reach is global in a way ours never was.So, honoring their hidden hives means respecting that their conversations matter. Ask: What are you and your friends talking about? What do they think? Don't dismiss them as “just kids.” They often understand more than we do.Sarah: Yes! I remember being dismissed by adults as a child, and how frustrating that felt. I had real thoughts and opinions. That's a kind of adult-centrism, and I know that's a theme in your work.Desiree: Exactly. Center kids in their own lives. What matters to them matters—just like what matters to us in our friendships.Sarah: Okay, now step five: Let them see your grief, with boundaries. This is a hard one for me. I cry easily when talking about these topics, but I don't want to traumatize my kids.Desiree: But why do we think crying is traumatizing?Sarah: I guess I worry that if they see me overwhelmed, they'll feel overwhelmed too.Desiree: The opposite can also happen. If you never let them see you grieve, they may feel they have to hold it in as well.Our parents and grandparents grew up in eras of war, enslavement, displacement. They learned to “button it up” and carry on. They raised us to believe there's “no crying in baseball.”But my parenting journey has been about humanizing myself. I don't want my kids to only realize I'm human after I die. If they see me cry about a world in crisis, that teaches them it's okay to feel deeply too.Now, the boundary is important—we don't completely fall apart in front of them. They still need to feel safe. If a parent collapses emotionally, kids may feel like they have to take care of the parent. That's the line we don't want to cross.Sarah: Yes—that's exactly what I was worried about.Desiree: Right. So we want to find that balance of communal care. We take care of each other here, right? Let's set aside a moment for grief. How are you feeling? What are you grieving today?What made you feel sad? What made you feel displaced? What made you feel unheard, unseen, unloved? Let's get into that. Let's feel that for a moment. And then — what could feel different? What could we all do better as a community?This made me feel bad when you said that. I share with my kids: “When you don't do X, Y, and Z, it makes me feel like you don't care about what I think. And that hurts me.” Right? I don't want to be a parent who just seems angry. I want to be clear that I'm hurt. That hurt my feelings.And I love you so much, I care about you so much, that your feelings matter to me — but I also want to matter to you. And that, for me, is communal care.Sarah: You mentioned a couple of sentences back about “what can we do,” which links nicely into your next step: link emotions to actionable compassion.There's that Mr. Rogers quote about whenever anything bad is happening, look for the helpers. And research shows that when you have big emotions without feeling like you can do anything, that's when kids (and adults) turn cynical.So maybe you could give us a couple of examples. You already mentioned going to marches and emailing. But what are some other things you've done with your kids, or that you've seen other people do with their kids, that connect emotions to actionable compassion?Desiree: Well, again, it all ties together. What's your capacity? What are you able to do that's long-term and sustainable?When the George Floyd protests were happening, my eldest was outside. She said, “Absolutely not. I'm not going to march, I'm not going to take risks.” I said, “Okay, but how do you feel? Do you feel like you're making a difference?”She started going out with water and sandwiches. That turned into a nonprofit — Feed the Revolution. Donations poured in. We even had to get a storage unit for all the water and dry goods. That's linking compassion and passion with actionable steps. It was something she could do safely.And that's how you bring in community care. Other people couldn't march, but they could bring food, bring water, or look for the helper.With kids, it might look different. If they have a Discord group, maybe they can have a conversation once a week: What are your thoughts on this? How do you feel? That's activism too. Sharing, course correcting, letting people know, “Hey, that was harmful. Can we do better?”So: What are you feeling? What do you have the capacity for? What's sustainable? And what can we do?Sarah: And you mentioned even some quiet things, like coloring with your kids, learning about kids around the world, lighting a candle at home, making art for peace, or helping someone locally. Even helping actions that aren't tied to a “cause,” but are just about kindness.Desiree: But that is the issue, right? Because then you start raising helpers.The other day, we had some leftover curry. My son Kira said, “I don't want any more… but can we box it up and give it to somebody?” I said, “I love that. Great. Let's microwave some rice, put it in a container, and go outside to share it.”So now he's learning about not wasting food, about climate collapse, about taking care of community. And people often think it has to be big. “Oh, you need to feed 50 people.” But you fed one. That matters.Sarah: Even if it's just your next-door neighbor who doesn't cook much — bring them some food.Desiree: Or the burned-out parent who's doing all the caretaking. How nice would it be to say, “Hey, I got dinner for you. I know you've already fed your kids. Let someone take care of you.”That shows your children you can make a difference without it having to be huge. The fatigue comes from feeling like we need to combat everything at once. That's overwhelming, and overwhelming leads to burnout.Sarah: Right.Desiree: Liberation isn't one-and-done. It isn't a single conversation. It's a practice, a relationship, a rhythm. You're modeling that the truth takes time, and we don't have to rush.Sarah: I love that. It's like conversations about sex, right? You don't have one talk and then you're done. You keep talking as kids grow and change.Desiree: Exactly. When I talk about liberation work and decolonization, it's about creating a culture shift. None of us like to feel lectured to. Making it conversational changes everything. It becomes about solution-finding: there's a problem, what's the solution, what are the steps?That teaches kids that even if a problem can't be completely eradicated, we can do something. Harm reduction matters. How can we create less harm and do more good?Sarah: And it leaves space for thought and choice. For example, my daughter's iPhone screen broke. She wondered if she should just buy a new phone. I told her, “I'm not going to judge you, but my value is: fix what's still good.” It might not be the most practical or cheapest option, but it feels better ethically.So we talked. And then she made her own decision.Desiree: Yes, exactly. It's harm reduction again. And you gave her the choice — you didn't say, “Absolutely not.”Sarah: Right.Desiree: That's powerful.Sarah: Okay, so your next step is build their critical consciousness. This means inviting them to go deeper — asking questions like, “Who benefits from this system? What would fairness look like? What do you wish adults would do differently?”Desiree: Yes. The safest place to practice that questioning is at home. But that's hard in a hierarchical society.Sarah: Right, you're like, “Question other people, not me!” (laughs)Desiree: Exactly. But raising reflective rebels — kids who can think critically, even with us — is essential.We even did this around bedtime. My kids didn't want a set bedtime. I explained why rest matters. Then we co-created a boundary: “Okay, stay up as late as you want, but you have to get up happily, on time, and not be dysregulated at school.”It lasted less than two weeks! They realized for themselves that lack of sleep doesn't work. That's better than me saying “Because I said so.” They learned through experience.Sarah: That's such a good example of co-creating boundaries. What does that look like in the context of activism and social justice?Desiree: It's about recognizing reality. Not everyone is open to these conversations, especially because they're kids, and also because they're Black and neurodiverse. They need to know when to call me in, and when to stand firm with a respectful “no.”For example, my kids don't do homework. I don't want them indoctrinated into an 80-hour work week. They come home to rest, play, and have a balanced life. That's our boundary.Sarah: Yes, that's so good.Desiree: And finally, root it all in relationship, not rhetoric. If I don't trust you, I won't have conversations with you. Punitive parenting “works,” but only out of fear. The opposite of fear is radical love.Our kids need us to see them as human beings and build real relationships with them. That includes repair when we mess up. Restoration is key.Sarah: Yes.Desiree: Parenting is inherently hierarchical, and that creates a power imbalance. It can be abusive if we're not conscious of that. So our goal is to shift from power over to power with. That's how we raise kids who believe in communal power — and who grow up ready to change the world.Sarah: I love that. That's a hopeful place to stop. Thank you so much.Desiree: Thank you.Sarah: One last question I ask all my guests: if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?Desiree: Parent the child in front of you. That's the best advice I ever got. Don't parent from your own trauma.Sarah: Beautiful. And where can people find you?Desiree: My Substack is desireebstephens.com— that's Stephens with a PH. I also co-host Parenting Decolonized with Yolanda, and we run a parenting support group. I'll share those links.Sarah: Perfect. We'll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you again.Desiree: Thank you.Sarah: We're all out here trying to change the world. Slowly, but sustainably.Desiree: Absolutely.>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Recently, Sarah was working with a BDM (salesperson) who believed she was ready to hire a sales setter to help with some of the sales outreach and follow up. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how to know when you need to hire a sales setter and things you can do to increase your sales volume without one. You'll Learn [00:43] The Importance of Having Sales Metrics and Data  [05:45] Setting Your Salesperson Up for Success [07:57] More Volume = More Results [09:47] The Two Main Components of Sales Quotables “There are certain things that we're gauging all the time in our business, but I think sales has to be probably number one.” “ You have a BDM and they're good at sales and you have them doing anything other than sales, you are making a very stupid mistake because that's the lifeblood of the business.” “Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results.” “If something's not working, you just got to not tolerate it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: I bet you, you can just get more results by doing more work, which means stop doing the other things that you're doing. [00:00:05] Sarah: Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results. And then you can probably don't even need to pay a setter. [00:00:12] Jason: We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. And we're going to keep this episode a little brief, so I'm going to skip some of our intro. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:31] Jason: We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:00:41] Jason: Alright. What are we chatting about today?  [00:00:43] Sarah: Alright. I wanted to talk about this just because I think it happens a lot in business and we have to just kind of gauge, right? So there are certain things that we're gauging all the time in our business, but I think sales has to be probably number one. So one of our clients had asked me last week on the scale call she's a BDM, so she does all the sales and she said, "Hey, we are actually thinking about hiring an appointment setter. And they will kind of help with a lot of the outbound calls and you know, the follow up and the scheduling and you know, rescheduling any appointments and just kind of like staying on top of things and making sure that everything is being tracked and, you know, moving forward and doing a whole bunch of outbound calls." [00:01:36] Sarah: That's really what setters do is they just sit and call all day long. Yeah. So she says, "yeah, we're thinking about hiring this sales setter, and I want to know what you think about it." So the first thing I did is I was like, okay, if you actually need a sales setter, then like, here's the Rdoc and that's great. [00:01:56] Sarah: Like, we would hire a sales setter...  [00:01:58] Jason: which is a job description for those unfamiliar.  [00:02:00] Sarah: Yes. So we would hire a sales setter the same way that we would hire A BDM. Mm-hmm. I always recommend going through the DoorGrow Hiring process, but before we really dig into the hiring piece is we should first figure out is this actually something that you need right now? [00:02:16] Sarah: So one of the tools that we have for our clients in our client workbook is a sales tracker, and I happened to pull up the sales tracker for them just out of curiosity. And lucky for me, she had actually filled it out. So my one recommendation is for whoever is doing sales, and if it's multiple people, then that's fine. Multiple people need to then fill out the sales tracker. So fill out the sales tracker at the end of every single day. This is like your end of day report.  [00:02:42] Sarah: If you have two BDMs, then they both need to be doing it. If you have a, BDM and a setter, they both need to be doing it. It doesn't matter. [00:02:50] Sarah: Every single sales person needs to be filling out and submitting their own data and metrics. So I said, well, let me look through your sales tracker. Now, she did not have it filled out consistently every day. There were some days that she had it filled out. There were some days that were not filled out. [00:03:07] Sarah: And then there were some days that had pretty solid data, and there were some days that had like, you know, "I did three to four hours," or "I did, you know, six to eight appointments." Well, is it six, is it seven or is it eight? So don't give me like the range, give me the actual raw data. So I was looking through this, and even with the data that she had in there, I was able to kind of make an assessment. [00:03:31] Sarah: I said, "listen, if this was my business, I would not be, at this point in time, I would not be looking at hiring a sales setter. The reason being is that with the resources that we currently have, which is A BDM, what we need to do is just turn up the volume for the BDM. And once that BDM is totally maxed out, then we can look to see, hey, do we actually need some additional support? [00:03:59] Sarah: And that might be a sales setter. So what I was noticing, and now she's a newer hire. She's been there only a few months and she's doing a great job so far. So. The early on data, she was still in training and onboarding and learning and kind of testing and figuring things out. And you could see that as you go down the list, the later the date, the better results that she was getting. [00:04:24] Sarah: So in the very beginning, she was maybe doing like half an hour or 45 minutes a day, and later on in the list she was doing, you know, one to two hours and then she was doing three to four hours. And then she tends to do about four hours a day on average now. And then same thing with phone calls. [00:04:41] Sarah: You know, she would do, you know, a couple of phone calls in the beginning and then later on down in the data you would see, hey, she was doing more phone calls, she was getting, doing more time. She was doing more phone calls. She was setting more appointments, and therefore some things were starting to close. [00:04:58] Sarah: But what I could also see is that she is not fully maxed out.  [00:05:01] Jason: Right.  [00:05:01] Sarah: So if we have a BDM who is full-time, meaning at least 30, maybe even 40 hours a week, and they're doing four hours per day, that's like 20 hours a week. So that's like part-time BDM work. Yeah. So then what is happening with the rest of the time? [00:05:18] Sarah: So I said, "first of all, anything that you are doing at all that does not have to do with sales, cut it out immediately. Stop it. If you're on like client success meetings, because the property manager was also on that call." Yeah. So, and I know that they work in tandem. They work as a team, which is really great. [00:05:34] Sarah: Like the team culture there is fantastic. But when you're dragging the salespeople into the customer service side.  [00:05:42] Jason: Big mistake.  [00:05:43] Sarah: You're costing yourself so much money.  [00:05:45] Jason:  I want to comment on that just real quick. I mean, everybody listening, if you have anybody in your organization that's good at sales, whether it's you that should be doing the sales and you don't have anyone else to do it, and you're the business owner, or you have a BDM and they're good at sales and you have them doing anything other than sales, you are making a very stupid mistake because that's the lifeblood of the business. They feed the business, they pay everybody else's salary. They're the only people that bring money, fresh money into the business. And they should not be dabbling as a property manager. They should not be dabbling as a leasing agent. They should not be dabbling or picking up slack for anybody else. [00:06:27] Jason: No. Hire other people if you need to, but get your salesperson spending full time spending their time on sales if they're good and they will make you a lot of money. And having them do anything else is a massive waste of a resource.  [00:06:40] Sarah: Absolutely. I've said it like this before, if you have a star quarterback on a football team, do you want that quarterback doing any other, like playing any other position? [00:06:50] Jason: I like that analogy.  [00:06:51] Sarah: Do you want them kicking? Do you want them walking? Do you want them to be a tight end?  [00:06:54] Jason: No, there'd be dumb. No.  [00:06:56] Sarah: Why? Why on earth would you do that? No. If I've got somebody who can hurl that ball with pinpoint precision and accuracy to any spot on the field at will... [00:07:08] Jason: don't make them a kicker. [00:07:09] Sarah: I got to preserve that resource. And then I'm like, that's literally the only thing you're going to do.  [00:07:14] Jason: The kickers, kick. That's all the kickers do. The kickers do one thing. They just kick the ball's. That's it, and they're not used very often. Like, it would be ridiculous to say, "you know what, kicker, why don't you also occasionally be our backup quarterback?" [00:07:26] Jason: Like, you're second string now. Like, it just, it doesn't make sense. If he could be a quarterback, he would not be a kicker.  [00:07:32] Sarah: Right.  [00:07:33] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:33] Sarah: Yeah. So I said, anything that you're doing that is not sales, stop it immediately. Like today. Don't stop it. Monday. Stop it today. Okay. That's it, period. That's number one. [00:07:43] Sarah: Then number two, we need to just get more time out of you. So if you're doing, you know, four hours a day, what's the rest of your time being spent doing? So we just needed, we need to spend more time and then we just need to increase the number of calls. So she actually happens to be in my accountability group. So that call was Friday. Every Monday, we have a telegram group that it's real quick, it's just an accountability group. We set a personal goal and a professional goal for the upcoming week, and then we give updates on the previous week. And her goal for monday, like this past Monday was to do a minimum of 100 calls per day after our call on Friday. [00:08:24] Sarah: Which is awesome because I said, "you have to increase the volume. Yeah. So that you can get more results. And then once we have the volume increased so much that you cannot add anymore. You are absolutely maxed out. You can't add more time without, you know, working like 80 hours a week. [00:08:40] Sarah: We can't add more time. We can't do more calls. We can't possibly like squeeze any more, you know, blood from the stone. Now I know you're maxed out. Now it might make sense to look at either hiring another BDM or hiring a setter.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:55] Sarah: But right now, you are not maxed out. All you need to do is just increase your volume so that you can get more results, because I bet you, you can just get more results by doing more work, which means stop doing the other things that you're doing. [00:09:06] Sarah: Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results. And then you can probably don't even need to pay a setter.  [00:09:14] Jason: Yeah. So we have three setters. Yesterday they made 200 calls between the three of them. And they each booked... on a Monday.... they each... yeah, on a Monday, which is hard for property manager, for property managers.  [00:09:24] Sarah: Come on. [00:09:24] Jason: And they each booked a one appointment, which is pretty good. But that's a lot of calls. And we have a lot of other growth engines installed at DoorGrow, but we're getting almost 300 calls a day. And we'll probably add some more setters, but like, we're doing outreach and so this is the game. [00:09:41] Jason: This is the game. And if you're not putting in the numbers, but you're like, "maybe it's not working," you don't get the game. Yeah.  [00:09:47] Sarah: So my big thing is there's two things. There are two main components of sales, and almost every single, if not every single problem that you have in sales. It all boils down to one of these two things I can almost guarantee it. [00:10:02] Sarah: One is volume, and two is AB testing. That's all sales is, and if you fix your volume and you AB test everything to optimize for best results, you will never have a sales problem.  [00:10:15] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:15] Sarah: So that's what we figure out here at DoorGrow, how to have people optimize, AB testing and volume. And that's why our clients can get the results that they're able to. [00:10:26] Sarah: That's why our clients can get results that other people aren't able to. They're like, oh, I'm doing like all these calls. I'm doing all this stuff. Yeah, but you're not doing it. Either you're not doing enough or you're not AB testing the right way. And you're not using the right strategies. [00:10:38] Sarah: Yeah. I mean everything. Like, listen, I can give you a list of, you know, a thousand people and you can call them your way and we can call them our way and we'll get better results. Why? Because we've AB tested everything. Yeah. So it's always, it's either volume or AB testing. Yeah. [00:10:51] Sarah: Those two things. And you will never have a sales problem again.  [00:10:55] Jason: If something's not working, you just got to not tolerate it. That's the problem, is at each stage there's things that are not working if you're not getting deals, and if you don't change what's not working and you keep doing it the same way, you're going to keep getting the same result. And so this is what we coach on. We're like, cool. You need to fix that step now, this step in the pipeline, now this step. And until you get everything dialed in, it's not really working. But once you get the whole growth engine built out, it's all unclogged, the water's flowing, then you're making money. [00:11:25] Jason: And that's why I say it's the last 10% of getting things dialed in that gives you 90% of the results. All right.  [00:11:31] Sarah: All right.  [00:11:31] Jason: Okay, so if you felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. You can also join our free community at doorgrowclub.com, our Facebook group. [00:11:43] Jason: And if you found this even a little bit helpful, help us out. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone. 

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions. The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues. By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money! Here's what we talked about: The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress. Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions. How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults. The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it. Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it. The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance. Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money. A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd. --- Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4 [00:00:00] Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work? Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated. Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us. It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00] Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves. Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess. Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that. And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation? You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part. Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part. And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right? Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples. Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born. So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us. This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that. It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States. I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink. You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact. And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy. It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work. You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young. So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that. And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money. Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have. Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover. And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right? It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class. And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts. And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married. And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story? Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself. So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that. Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems. Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your. You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me. And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet? Maybe. Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life. The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out. Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor. And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people. And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's. You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear. We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes, Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that. Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again. So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself. And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level. And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before. Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds. What do you think about that? Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work. So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st. Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that. You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either. Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right? I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy. Sarah: Yeah. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story? Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start. [00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And. Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money. Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this. You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well. Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals. So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors. Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation. Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side. Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community. But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you Emily: tap into your own wisdom. Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it. Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well. Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments? Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself. Sarah: Mm. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious. I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions. The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues. By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money! Here's what we talked about: The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress. Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions. How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults. The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it. Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it. The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance. Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money. A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd. --- Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4 [00:00:00] Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work? Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated. Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us. It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00] Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves. Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess. Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that. And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation? You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part. Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part. And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right? Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples. Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born. So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us. This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that. It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States. I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink. You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact. And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy. It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work. You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young. So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that. And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money. Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have. Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover. And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right? It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class. And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts. And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married. And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story? Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself. So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that. Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems. Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your. You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me. And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet? Maybe. Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life. The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out. Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor. And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people. And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's. You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear. We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes, Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that. Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again. So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself. And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level. And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before. Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds. What do you think about that? Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work. So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st. Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that. You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either. Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right? I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy. Sarah: Yeah. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story? Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start. [00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And. Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money. Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this. You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well. Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals. So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors. Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation. Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side. Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community. But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you Emily: tap into your own wisdom. Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it. Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well. Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments? Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself. Sarah: Mm. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious. I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions. The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues. By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money! Here's what we talked about: The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress. Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions. How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults. The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it. Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it. The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance. Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money. A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd.   --- Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4 [00:00:00] Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work? Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated. Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us. It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00] Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves. Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess. Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that. And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation? You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part. Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part. And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right? Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples. Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born. So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us. This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that. It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States. I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink. You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact. And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy. It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work. You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young. So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that. And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money. Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have. Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover. And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right? It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class. And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts. And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married. And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story? Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself. So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that. Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems. Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your. You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me. And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet? Maybe. Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life. The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out. Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor. And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people. And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's. You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear. We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes, Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that. Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again. So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself. And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level. And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before. Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds. What do you think about that? Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work. So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st. Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that. You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either. Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right? I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy. Sarah: Yeah. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story? Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start. [00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And. Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money. Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this. You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well. Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals. So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors. Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation. Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side. Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community. But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you Emily: tap into your own wisdom. Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it. Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well. Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments? Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself. Sarah: Mm. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious. I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.

In this episode, we delve into the impact of the new groundbreaking research uncovering the RNU4-2 genetic variant linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. The discovery, made possible through whole genome sequencing, highlights a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene that affects about 1 in 200 undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, making it more prevalent than previously thought. This discovery represents one of the most common single-gene genetic causes of such conditions. Our host, Naimah Callachand, Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England, is joined by Lindsay Pearse who shares her journey through the diagnosis of her son Lars. They are also joined by Sarah Wynn, CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, Clinical Genetics Doctor and Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. We also hear from the 2 research groups who independently discovered the findings: Dr Andrew Mumford, Professor of Haematology at the University of Bristol Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03085-5  Assistant Professor Nicky Whiffin, Big Data Institute and Centre for Human Genetics at the University of Oxford Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07773-7 To access resources mentioned in this podcast:  Unique provides support, information and networking to families affected by rare chromosome and gene disorders - for more information and support please visit the website. Connect with other parents of children carrying a variation in RNU4-2 on the Facebook group.   "I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future."   You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/How-has-a-groundbreaking-genomic-discovery-impacted-thousands-worldwide.docx  Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Lindsay: So, this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island and in this case actually there's a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope and, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity, and so now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I'm Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm joined by Lindsay Pearse whose son Lars recently received a genetic diagnosis, made possible by research using data from the National Genomic Research Library, Sarah Wynn CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, a clinical genetics doctor. Today we'll be discussing the impact of recent research findings which have found a genetic change in the non-coding RNU4-2 gene, to be linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Naimah: And first of all, I would like everyone to introduce themselves. So, Lindsay, maybe if we could come to you first. Lindsay: Great, thank you. So, thank you for having me. I'm Lindsay Pearse, I live outside of Washington DC and I'm a mum to 3 boys. My oldest son Lars who is 8, he was recently diagnosed with the de novo variant in the RNU4-2 gene. Naimah: Thank you. And Emma? Emma: My name is Emma Baple. I'm a Clinical Genetics Doctor which means I look after children and adults with genetic conditions. I'm also a Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. Naimah: And Sarah? Sarah: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm Sarah Wynn, I'm the CEO of a patient organisation called Unique, and we provide support and information to all those affected by rare genetic conditions. Naimah: Great, thank you. It's so great to have you all here today. So, first of all Lindsay, I wonder if we could come to you. So, you mentioned in your introduction your son Lars has recently been diagnosed with the de novo variant. I wondered if you could tell us a bit about your story, and what it's been like up until the diagnosis. Lindsay: Sure, yeah. So, Lars is, he's a wonderful 8 year-old boy. With his condition, his main symptoms he experiences global developmental delays, he's non-verbal. He's had hypertonia pretty much since birth and wears AFO's to support his walking. He has a feeding disorder and is fed by a G-Tube. Cortical vision impairments, a history of seizures and slow growth, amongst other things. So, that's just a bit of a picture of what he deals with day to day. But he's my oldest child, so first baby. When I was pregnant, we were given an IUGR diagnosis. He was breech, he had a hernia soon after birth, wouldn't breastfeed. But all of these things aren't terribly uncommon, you know. But once he was about 3 or 4 months old, we noticed that he wasn't really able to push up like he should, and we were put in touch with early intervention services for an assessment. So, we went ahead and did that when he was about 4 or 5 months old. And as parents, we could just kind of tell that something was off from the assessors. And, you know, they were very gentle with us, but we could just get that sense that okay, something is off, and they're worried here. So, that kind of kickstarted me into making appointments left, right and centre with specialists. The first specialist that we saw was a neurologist. And yeah, again, that's another appointment that I'll never forget. She referred us to genetics and to get an MRI and some lab work but at the end of the appointment, she said to us, ‘Just remember to love your child.' And, you know, that was quite shocking to us at the time because it wasn't something that had ever crossed our mind that we wouldn't do or felt like we needed to be told to do this. But on the other hand, it certainly set off a lot of worry and anxiety of okay, well, what exactly are we dealing with here? So, fast forward, we saw genetics and that was about when Lars was about 8 months old. We went through a variety of genetic testing, a chromosomal micro-array, a single gene testing, then the whole exome testing. Everything came back negative, but it was explained to us that what was going on was likely an overarching genetic diagnosis that would explain his like, multi-system symptoms. And so meanwhile as he was getting older his global delays were becoming more pronounced and we were also in and out of the hospital a lot at this time. At first, he was in day care and, you know, any sort of cold virus would always turn into like a pneumonia for him. So, we were just in and out of hospital seeing a myriad of specialists, trying to put together this puzzle of what's going on and it was really hard to accept that nobody could figure it out. That was just, you know, sort of mind-blowing to us I guess. So, we applied for and were accepted into the Undiagnosed Diseases Programme at the National Institute of Health over here. The NIH as it's commonly referred to. So, we first went there when Lars was 2. He was one of their youngest patients at the time. But that was a really great experience for us because we felt like they were looking at him holistically and across a bunch of all of his systems, and not just seeing a specialist for sort of each system. So, we really appreciated that. We also did the whole genome sequencing through this research study. Although that also came back negative and so at that point, we were told to kind of keep following up symptomatically. Keep seeing the specialists and eventually maybe one day we'll find an overarching diagnosis, but that science just hadn't quite caught up to Lars. It was hard for me again to believe that and to sort of wrap my head around that. But certainly, it was an education from all of the doctors and geneticists and everyone we saw at NIH, to realise like how far there still was to go in terms of genetic research. How it wasn't also that uncommon to be undiagnosed in the rare disease community. I would say that being undiagnosed sort of became part of our identity. And it's, you know, it was something that, you know, you had to explain to like insurance companies and to his school, and it became part of our advocacy around him. Because without being able to say oh, it's this specific thing and if it was someone who hadn't met Lars before, trying to explain to them that, you know, yeah, within the range of this community you can be undiagnosed, and they just haven't found it yet, but I promise you there is something going on here. And I'd say the other thing too without a diagnosis you have no prognosis, right? And so, trying to figure out what the future would look like. Also, family planning. We waited 5 and a half years before we had another child and, you know, it was certainly an anxiety ridden decision. Ultimately after seeing as many specialists as we possibly could, we still were left with the same answer of well, we just don't really know if it will happen again. So, that was a big decision to make. But again, it just kind of became part of our identity and something that you did eventually accept. But I would say in my experience I feel like the acceptance part also of Lars' disabilities perhaps took me a little bit longer. Because again, I didn't have a prognosis, so I didn't exactly know what we were dealing with. Only as he has become older and, you know, you're sort of getting a better sense of what his abilities might be than being able to understand, okay, this is what I'm dealing with. I need to accept that and do what I can to care for him and our family in the best way that we can. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing that, Lindsay. I feel like you've touched on a lot of really, you know, a lot of complications and difficulties for your family. Especially, you know, with regards to keeping hopeful and things about the prognosis as well, I'm sure it was really difficult. You've mentioned that Lars was able to be diagnosed recently due to recent research efforts. So, Sarah, I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about these and what the findings have meant for patients with neurodevelopmental conditions. Sarah: Yes. So, I think we know that there are lots of families that are in Lindsay and Lars' position where they know that there is almost certainly an underlying genetic condition, and it just hasn't been found yet. And so, I think we know that lots of researchers are working really hard to try and find those causes. I think over time we know that as time goes on and research goes on, we'll find more of these new genetic causes for neurodevelopmental conditions. I think particularly as we start to look at regions of the genome that we haven't looked at so much so far. But I think one of the things that's really extraordinary about this one is that actually it turns out to be much more common than we might have expected, for one of these new conditions that we haven't found before. But I think it's about one in 200 of those undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, have this diagnosis so that's not a small number. That's not a rare finding at all actually, that's much more common than we could ever have anticipated. But I think one of the things that we do know is that as we look further and deeper into that genomic sequence, so, we've started off looking at the bits of the sequence that are genes that code for proteins. This changes in a gene that actually doesn't code for protein, so it's less obvious that it would be important but clearly it is important in development because we know when it has a spelling mistake in it, it causes this neurodevelopmental condition. But there will be as researchers look more and more at these kinds of genes, and also the other part of the genome that is not genes at all, we'll find out more and more the underlying genetic causes of these neurodevelopmental conditions. I think it's also really important to stress why this is so important to find these genetic changes and it's because families really need a diagnosis. Lindsay talked quite eloquently and a lot about that knowing something was off and really wanting to know the reason why. Getting these diagnoses might change care management or treatment, but actually really importantly it just gives an answer to families who have often been looking for an answer for a really long time. Naimah: I just wanted to go back to the point that Sarah made that actually this genetic change is relatively common. Emma, I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about maybe why it took us so long to discover it? Emma: That's an interesting question actually. I suppose the sort of slightly simplified answer to that question is we haven't been able to sequence the whole of a person's genetic information for that long. And so, children like Lars would have had, as Lindsay described lots and lots of genetic tests up until they had a whole genome sequencing which is what Sarah was talking about. The types of tests that we had up until the whole genome sequencing wouldn't have allowed us to look at that bit of the genetic code where this RNU4-2 gene can be found. So, we can only really find that using whole genome sequencing. So, before that existed, we wouldn't have been able to find this cause of developmental condition. Naimah: Okay, thanks Emma. Naimah: Now we're going to hear from one of the two research groups who are responsible for these research findings. First of all, let's hear from Nicky Whiffin. (Clip - Nicky Whiffin) Naimah: How were the findings possible using the Genomics England dataset? Nicky: So, most previous studies have only looked at genetic variants that, in genes that make proteins, but only a subset of our genes actually do makes proteins. The Genomics England dataset we have sequencing information on the entire genome, not just on these protein coding genes and that means we can also look at variants in other genes. So, those that make molecules other than proteins. And RNU4-2 for example, makes an RNA molecule. Naimah: These findings translated to direct patient benefit for patients like Lars who were able to receive support from Unique. How does this demonstrate the value of the dataset? Nicky: Yes. So, it was incredible that we could find so many patients with RNU4-2 variants so quickly. This was enabled by access to Genomics England data but also to other large sequencing datasets around the world. So, we worked with people in the US, in Australia and also in mainland Europe. These large datasets enabled us to spot consistent patterns in the data and by looking across multiple datasets we can also make sure that our findings are robust. When we realised how significant this was and how many families would be impacted, we very quickly contacted Sarah at Unique to see if we could direct patients to them for support. (End of clip) Emma: There's one thing I wanted to raise. It's important to recognise the way that was discovered was through the National Genomic Research Library that Genomics England hosts. To highlight the value of that, and the value of having this centralised resource where families have been kind enough really to allow their data to be shared with some limited clinical information that allowed these researchers to be able to pull this out. And I think it highlights the power of the National Health Service in that we were able to create such a resource. It's really quite astounding that we've found such a common cause of a rare genetic condition, and it wouldn't have happened in the same timescale or in this way without that resource. And then to just say that as Sarah talked about the fact that we've been able to get that information out there, also the researchers were able to get out there and contact the NIH and all of these other programmes worldwide. In Australia, America, everywhere in the world and quickly identify new patients who had this condition and get those diagnoses out really rapidly to people. But all that came from that power of sharing data and being able to have that all in one place and making it accessible to very clever people who could do this work and find these answers. It's so important for families like Lindsay's, and all the families in England and around the world that have got these answers. So, I guess it's a big plug for the value of data sharing and having a secure place where people feel that it's trusted and safe, that enables these diagnoses to be made. Lindsay: If I could just echo that, we're so grateful that that exists in the UK. Just acknowledging like the privilege here that we have had to be able to, I mean for our family in the US, that we've been able to, you know, get ourselves into the NIH study and into the study at Children's National. That takes a lot of work. I feel like not everybody has that opportunity to be able to spend the time to do these applications and to go to all the appointments and get the testing done and have the insurance to cover it. So, very grateful that the system exists in a way in the UK that made this sort of research possible. I just hope that that can be replicated in other places, and also to what Emma was saying earlier, come up with a lower cost test as well for this to further the growth of the community and of course then the corresponding research. Sarah: I think firstly we have to sort of thank all of those families that took part and do share their data, because I think it's not always clear why you might want to do that as a family. I think this is really a powerful example of the benefit of that. I also think the data sharing goes one stage further. So, it's partly about getting the diagnosis, but the data sharing going forward about how this condition impacts families, both clinically and sort of day to day lived experience, is how we'll be able to learn more about these conditions. And so, when families get this diagnosis next week or next year, not only will they get a diagnosis, but they'll get a really good idea about what the condition is and how it might impact their child. Naimah: And Lindsay, coming back to you. So, we've talked about, you know, what it meant for your family before the diagnosis, but what has it meant to have a diagnosis and how did you feel? And what happened whenever you received the diagnosis? Lindsay: Sure. Lars was again part of the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Research study. So, once you attend this programme and if you are not diagnosed like at the end of your stay, they keep your details on file and you're part of this database at the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Programme. So, if you're undiagnosed after your sort of week-long work up, your samples stay within the research programme. We were also part of a research programme at Children's National Medical Centre, the Rare Disease Institute. So, our samples were sort of on file there in their database as well. And so, at the end of March I was really quite shocked to receive a call from our long time and trusted geneticist at Children's National that they had found a diagnosis. It was quite emotional. I really kind of didn't believe it. I just kept asking, you know, ‘Are you sure? Is this it?' you know, ‘How confident are we?' Because I think in my head, I sort of always thought that we would eventually find a diagnosis, but I thought that Lars would be, you know, a 30- or 40-year-old adult. I thought it would be decades from now. Like I felt like for whatever reason we had to wait decades for the science to sort of catch up to him. So, we were very, very grateful. It felt very validating, I guess. I had always kind of had this intuition feeling that we were sort of missing something and it's more that the science just hadn't quite caught up yet. But, you know, it was validating to know that okay, Lars is not the only person in the entire world with this, it is something that is relatively common in fact within the rare disease community. That is also very exciting to me personally because I'm hopeful that that will lead more researchers to be interesting in this, given how, quote on quote, common it is. I've sort of been describing it as like a mass diagnosis event but also more so this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of like looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island ad in this case, there's actually a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope. And, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Because I spoke earlier about how like being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity. So, now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. But yeah, we're just very grateful that the research had continued. And, you know, I think sometimes you sort of have this feeling of okay, our files are up on a shelf somewhere, you know, collecting dust and are people really looking at them? And actually, it turns out that the research was ongoing and yeah, we're just very grateful for that. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing, Lindsay. It sounds like it's been a real rollercoaster of emotions for your family and I'm glad to hear that, you know, you've got some hope now that you've got a diagnosis as well. So, moving onto the next question. Emma, I wanted to ask you then, how will these findings improve clinical diagnostic services for those for neurodevelopmental conditions? Emma: So, you asked me earlier about why it had taken so long to find this particular cause of neurodevelopmental condition, and I gave you a relatively simple answer. The reality is one of the other reasons is that almost eight out of ten children and adults who have RNU4-2 related neurodevelopmental condition have exactly the same single letter spelling change in that gene. So, actually that in itself means that when researchers are looking at that information, they might think that it's actually a mistake. Because we know that when we sequence genetic information, we can see mistakes in that sequencing information that are just because the machine has, and the way that we process that data, it's not perfect. So, sometimes we find these little mistakes and they're not actually the cause of a person's problems, they're just what we call an artefact or an issue with the way that that happens. So, that is part of the reason for why it was tricky for us to know whether this was, or rather the researchers to know whether this was or was not the cause of this particular condition. But that in itself is quite helpful when we think about how we might identify more people who have this going forwards. Because unlike in Lars' case where we didn't know what the cause was and so we were still searching, and we didn't know where to look in the billions of letters that make up the genetic code to find that answer, we now know that this is really very common. It's unbelievably common. I think we didn't think we would be finding a cause of a rare genetic condition that was this commonly occurring at this stage. But the fact that it's just a single, it's commonly this one single change in the gene means that we can set up pretty cheap diagnostic testing. Which means that if you were somewhere where you wouldn't necessarily have access to whole genome sequencing, or a more comprehensive testing in that way, we could still be able to pick up this condition. And it's common enough that even if you didn't necessarily recognise that a person had it, you could still have this as part of your diagnostic tool kit for patients who have a neurodevelopmental condition. It's common enough that just doing a very simple test that could be done in any diagnostic lab anywhere in the world, you would be able to identify the majority of people who have this. Naimah: Now let's hear from the other research group who are responsible for these findings. Here is Dr Andrew Mumford. (Clip - Dr Andrew Mumford) Naimah: Why are these research findings significant? Andrew: It offers genetic diagnosis not just for a handful of families but potentially for many hundreds of families, who we all know have been searching often for many, many years for a genetic diagnosis. But actually, there are other gains from understanding how this gene causes neurodevelopmental disorder. We know that there's GRNU4-2 in codes, not a protein actually, but a small nuclear RNA which is unusual for rare, inherited disorders. It's a component of a very complicated molecule called the spliceosome which in turn regulates how thousands of other genes are regulated, how they're made into proteins. So, fundamentally this discovery tells us a lot about the biology of how the spliceosome works. We already know that some other components of the spliceosome can go wrong, and result in diseases like neurodevelopmental disorders. This gives us an extra insight and actually opens the door to, I hope, a whole load of more discoveries of genetic diagnosis possible from other components of this complicated molecule. Naimah: Your research group used a mathematical modelling approach. Can you tell me a bit about this, and what this means for other rare conditions, Andrew? Andrew: So, identifying relationships between changes in individual genes and different kinds of rare, inherited disease is notoriously difficult because of the volume of data that's involved and the need to be absolutely certain that observed genetic changes are actually the cause of different rare, inherited disease. So, applying statistics to that kind of problem isn't new. But what my collaboration group have achieved here, is to develop, actually developed some years ago a completely new approach to applying statistics to genetic data. We call that BeviMed and we've been working for many years on the genes in code that make individual proteins. Most rare disorders are caused by genetic changes in genes that make proteins. What this discovery comes from is actually we've applied the BeviMed statistical technique to genes that don't make proteins, they're non-coding genes. For example, genes that make small nuclear RNA, it's just like RNU4-2. What's unusual about the BeviMed approach is that it's very sensitive to detecting links between genetic changes and rare diseases, and it can detect statistical associations really driven by very, very small numbers of families. So, we apply it to datasets like the 100,00 Genomes dataset and identify associations using statistics that have got a very high probability of association. Other members of the team then seek to corroborate that finding by looking at if we can see the association in other datasets, and we certainly achieve that with RNU4-2. But also, assessing biological plausibility by investigating what we understand already about in this case, a small nuclear RNA, and how it can possibly result in a disease. And we normally try and employ other independent evidence such as experimental investigation. Or going back to our families and asking for additional data to help really test this sort of theory that changes in this particular gene have resulted in a problem with neurodevelopment. (End of clip) Naimah: Emma, are there any other ways that we can identify these conditions based on their clinical presentation? Emma: So, Lindsay and I were talking with you just yesterday, wasn't it? And I asked Lindsay about what sorts of things Lars had in common with other children and adults who have been diagnosed with this condition? I actually think Lindsay probably gives a better summary than I would, so I might ask you to maybe repeat what you said to me yesterday. But the bit of it that really stood out to me was when you said to us that a lot of parents have said, ‘I'm not sure how we weren't all put together in the first place because you notice so many things that were in common.' So, maybe if you can give that summary and then I can translate that back into medical terms, if that's okay Lindsay. Lindsay: Sure, of course. Yeah, it been again, kind of mind blowing, some of the similarities. Especially as we've exchanged pictures and such, and baby pictures especially where some of the children like look like siblings. So, definitely some similarities in facial features, you know, everyone seems to experience some of the slow growth, so a short stature or quite skinny. There's feeding issues also that seem to be quite common. Also, you know, things like the global developmental delays, that's certainly across the board and histories of seizures, that's also quite common. Some people have experienced also some, like, bone density issues, that's not something that we've experienced so far, but that also seems to be quite common. But then also, behaviourally, there's a lot of similarities which has been, I think, quite exciting to a lot of us because you've always thought okay, so this is just my child. And of course, some of that is true but it's also interesting to find out some of these other things that are, you know, are quite similar. So, a lot of people have mentioned their child having, like, an interesting sense of humour. Kind of like a very slapstick sense of humour which is quite interesting. Or everyone seems to love water, everybody loves swimming pools and bathtime, and all of that. Lars loves a windy day. Something about the wind, he just loves it and plane noises and things like that have also come up with other people. So, yeah, it's been really interesting and cool to see. Emma: So, I guess Lindsay's sort of very beautifully summed up what is written in the research publication. So, there's only two research publications so far on this condition, it's all really new. And I am definitely not claim to be a clinical expert on this condition, and I don't think there are any yet. It will take people time to see lots of children and adults who have this particular condition. But ultimately what Lindsay summarised was the common clinical features that have been described by parents. In my job as a clinical genetics doctor, part of what we look at is a person's appearance. So, Lindsay described the photographs of children particularly when they were little, looked very similar. In the photographs that I've seen, I would agree with that. And so obviously those children look like their mum and dad, but they have other features that are in common. They have a characteristic appearance and that helps doctors like me to have an idea as to whether a child or an adult might have a particular condition. Then put together with the sorts of information that Lindsay gave us around the low tone, so being a little bit floppier particularly when they're little. The slow growth and growth problems, problems with eating, also with seizures. Those are all common things that were pulled out of both of the two research publications on this condition and putting that all together into one picture helps doctors to have an idea whether somebody may have a particular condition. That would help us in this case to potentially request that simple test I was talking about, if maybe we were practicing in a part of the world where we wouldn't have the resources that we thankfully do have in the United Kingdom, and in the USA. Naimah: So, Sarah, just coming to you next. How does this research spread awareness and help other patients with these conditions? Sarah: So, I think one of the things that's been really great about research now is that we are able to, you know, social media and things like that mean that we can spread this information really quickly across the world basically. I think what that does is that as well as helping bring people together that they've got this diagnosis, what it does is I think it provides hope for all of those people that Lindsay was talking about at the beginning who don't have a diagnosis. So, that piece around people are still looking, the researchers are working hard and that even if you don't have a diagnosis today you might get one in the future. Lindsay talked about your sample being dusty and not being looked at. I think it gives lots of families, not just those that get this diagnosis but all of those that haven't got a diagnosis, hope, that hopefully in the future they will get a diagnosis. I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future. That prognosis information that Linsday said is really missing when you don't have a diagnosis. And I think the other thing that hopefully is the next stage in this journey with this discovery is that those two science publications that Emma talked about, what we will want to do here at Unique working with the researchers and those families that have got a diagnosis, is to produce a patient family friendly information leaflet about this condition. One of the things we know is really important about those patient leaflets is including the photos. Because as both Emma and Lindsay have said that idea that they have facial features in common. And so, if you look at a leaflet and you can recognise your child in it, and you can see others that look like it, that can be a really sort of quite heartwarming experience in what often is a lonely experience with a rare condition. Naimah: And I think kind of on that point about it being a lonely experience, I wondered Lindsay if you could talk a bit more if this research has allowed you to connect with other parents and families who have received a diagnosis, and what impact that's had on your family? Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, and I think everything that Sarah has said was spot on. It's wonderful to have resources like Unique to connect families and have those diagnoses on the platform, so other clinicians can look for it and sort of grow this group. I think that has definitely been the highlight of getting this diagnosis at this stage, right. Because there's not much more you can do with it, with someone so brand new so being able to connect with the other families has been wonderful. One amazing mum who with this diagnosis set up a Facebook group, RNU4-2 Family Connect. And, you know, it's just been amazing to see people from all over the world joining this as they receive this diagnosis, you know, sharing their stories. We've spent countless hours on the weekends over the past couple of months on Zoom calls with total strangers, but just you find that you can just talk for hours and hours because you have so much in common. It's great to see what has worked well for other families and, you know, what has not worked. Sharing resources, just kind of all learning together. Also seeing the spectrum of this diagnosis, I think most genetic disorders have a spectrum and this seems to be the same here. So, that's been very interesting. And of course, our son is 8, Lars is 8. There's now a 33-year-old and a 29-year-old in the Facebook group. Speaking for me personally it's just amazing to see them and like it's very cool to see where they're at. That sort of helps you answer some of those questions about that before were quite unknown when you were thinking about the future. Obviously, everybody's development whether you have a genetic disorder or not, it is going to be what it's going to be, and everybody is going to do their own thing. But being able to see what a path might look like is just so helpful. And, you know, we all want community and connection, and so this has been really, really great to have that now. Sarah: I don't think there's much more that I can add because Lindsay articulated so well. But it's really heartwarming for us to hear the benefits of those connections because that's really why Unique and other support groups exist. Is to provide, partly to provide information, but I think predominantly to put families in touch with other families so that they can find a new home and connect and share experiences. And, you know, stop feeling as alone as they might have done before. Naimah: Okay, we'll wrap up there. Thank you to our guests, Lindsay Pearce, Sarah Wynn and Emma Baple for joining me today as we discussed the research findings which found a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene which has been linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you'd like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin of Ventoux Digital.

In May, we had our annual DoorGrow Live event! What makes DoorGrow Live different from other property management conferences? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about our most recent DoorGrow Live conference and some of the topics discussed. You'll Learn [01:12] What was different about this year's DoorGrow Live? [04:48] Tactics vs. Mindset [06:41] Changing the order of your priorities [10:17] Hard choices, easy life Tweetables “Tactics and the how can always be figured out.” “It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset.” “The hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term.” “If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. Okay.  [00:01:12] And so what we're going to be talking about today is we just had DoorGrow Live and DoorGrow Live was a success. It was a lot of fun and it was a little bit different this year. So how would you say it was different this year, Sarah?  [00:01:27] Sarah: So I think a lot of people were saying, "Hey, it feels like there was really just a lot of heart that went into this event." [00:01:35] So usually when I think you and I run events, we're very tactical. How do you do this? How do you do that? And let's share this strategy and let's talk about this thing. And this year we changed things up a little bit and you were maybe a little hesitant to follow the formula that I put together, might I add. [00:01:53] And so maybe on the podcast you can tell people that It worked?  [00:01:57] Jason: It worked.  [00:01:58] Sarah: And? Do you have anything else to say about that?  [00:02:00] Jason: Anyone that knows Sarah knows what she wants to hear right now. You were right. There it is! There it is. There it is. That's what she wanted. There it is.  [00:02:10] Sarah: So this year when I was putting together the schedule and the agenda, there was this whole plan that I had. [00:02:17] And I was like, "Oh no, we need to order things like this and do things like this. And this is what I wanted." And he's like, " I don't know if that's going to work. And why are we doing this whole thing? And we're like putting this whole thing together. And like, you don't even know if it's going to work the way you want." [00:02:30] Jason: Is this how I sound?  [00:02:31] Sarah: Yes.  [00:02:32] Jason: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:34] Sarah: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:36] Jason: That's totally what I sound like.  [00:02:38] Sarah: It was perfect.  [00:02:39] Jason: I'm shaking my head no, by the way, for the listeners.  [00:02:41] Sarah: See you probably, they probably didn't even know that was me talking. They just thought it was you.  [00:02:45] Jason: Oh, yeah. [00:02:46] You do such a good impersonation of me. I know. It's really quite impressive. I'll go back to my normal voice so that you realize it's Sarah talking. Yeah, for the listeners, we need to make sure there's two distinct voices or they're going to be really confused why I'm talking to myself because you sound so much like me. [00:03:03] Sarah: I know. I'm so sorry if I confused anyone.  [00:03:06] Jason: Nobody was confused. Okay. So...  [00:03:08] Sarah: so he was giving me a little bit of a hard time about it because I, like, made him sit down and map this out and I was like, "no, there's a formula that we're supposed to follow and this is what I want it to look like." And I think it worked out really well. [00:03:21] Jason: Yeah, the event went really well.  [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:24] Jason: Things ran pretty much like clockwork. That's hard. It's hard to do that in events. Like speakers go over, people don't stop. Like, we had this big, huge red LED clock right in front of the speaker. So it was like super obvious, like, and we, I think we had conversations with all the speakers, like everything worked pretty smoothly. [00:03:43] The general feedback I got from a lot of clients one of our clients, Ed Golding, came up to me and he was just smiling. He'd been to some previous ones and he said, "this was different, you know, what was different about this?" I said, "what, Ed? " He said, "heart, this one had heart." [00:03:56] And it was an emotional event. There was lot more emotion at this event. Did we talk about tactics? Yes. I explained how I've been able to leverage social media and different tools and, I've made millions of dollars off social media. And I shared some really cool tools and very tactical stuff. [00:04:12] That's how I opened up the event. But we got into a lot of mindset and what we've realized over time, that we talked about at the event that most of our clients are not winning or losing because they don't, or do have tactics. Tactics and the how can always be figured out. And I liked Jeff Garner's tattoo he talked about but....  [00:04:33] Sarah: he's funny.  [00:04:33] Jason: He's like, " can I say it? There's children present." I had my kids at the event.  [00:04:36] Sarah: They're my kids. Like they hear it all the time.  [00:04:40] Jason: Yeah, so he's got a tattoo that's FTH Which stands for "fuck the how" so and so a lot of times people are so worried about "how do I do this? How do I do this?" And we do share tactics. We do a lot of that at DoorGrow. However, It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset. And so whenever I teach tactics. I always am going into the why behind it and the mindset stuff. And when they start to understand this stuff, then they will actually do it usually. [00:05:13] So there was a lot of mindset at the event. And then also, there's vulnerability. Like I openly shared how I've been reevaluating my priorities and what those look like and how how that looks. You were sharing about your upbringing and how like the difficult things in life are also the things that make us who we are and help us to enable us to help others and how to view it through a different lens, which I thought was really awesome. [00:05:39] And everybody's crying. Sarah's making everybody cry. Like I was crying, like...  [00:05:44] Sarah: I made people cry in a very different way this time though. I'm usually making people cry because I'm yelling at them.  [00:05:50] Jason: That's not true.  [00:05:51] Sarah: It's a little true. It's a little true.  [00:05:54] Jason: Not our clients, just me.  [00:05:56] Sarah: No, I don't do, but I do give our clients tough love when they need it. [00:05:59] And Kelly came to the event and she's like, "this is exactly what I needed." I'm like, "I know that's why I was on you for like three months." [00:06:07] Jason: Yeah. I think some people had some breakthroughs, which that's the goal. Like we want to change lives. And so there's something just really beautiful about this DoorGrow Live. [00:06:16] There was a lot of more depth to it and I just feel grateful to be able to be part of it and to see, our clients that believe in us and that, that came in just seeing their progress and, there are people there that have been in our program for years, which is just. [00:06:29] It's really awesome to see. So, so I thought I would share just a little bit today about what I had shared and this will be a quick episode cause Sarah doesn't want me to go long. So this'll be a quick one.  [00:06:41] Sarah: Back to back today.  [00:06:42] Jason: You got a busy day. So what I shared is I talked a little bit about prioritization and I've talked about this previously, but what what was interesting, one of my breakthroughs recently was recognizing I was basically merging in my mind, the five basic needs. [00:06:57] Which I don't know who put that out. We learned it from our friend Roya.  [00:07:01] Sarah: But maybe it was... [00:07:02] Jason: maybe it's Tony Robbins. I don't know. So there's five basic needs and the five basic needs are love and belonging, power and achievement fun and adventure, fun and pleasure, safety and security. [00:07:15] Sarah: And I'll see when you put them in a weird order, then I don't remember them. Freedom and flexibility.  [00:07:20] Jason: Freedom and flexibility. Freedom. There we go. Yeah. Okay. These are five basic needs and we all have one that's primary. For Sarah, it's power and achievement. Nobody's surprised, right? For me, it's actually love and belonging. [00:07:33] And a lot of my achievement and a lot of the things that I do. Are to, that's what motivates that we're helping clients working with clients love and belonging and having that connection. That's why I like working with entrepreneurs because I don't feel like such a weirdo when I'm around other people that are that weird, that are also entrepreneurial. [00:07:51] But what I've come to realize that if I make that my highest priority, I tend to get less of it. And I think this is true for anyone with their basic need. If you really think about it, if Sarah just went after power and achievement. And didn't prioritize like relationships and other things, it could be pretty destructive and it would likely have the opposite desired effect in trying to achieve power and whatnot, right? [00:08:13] Because we need others. And then for me, if I'm just going after love and belonging, I would be less likely to get it. If I didn't have my own oxygen mass first, if I didn't have financial wealth and health, if I didn't have physical health then it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I wouldn't be nearly as present. [00:08:31] I wouldn't be able to enjoy much love and connection or belonging, in relationships. I wouldn't be able to feed into relationships as much if I weren't taking care of myself. And so based on that I, I had everybody map out or stack or list their priorities in their life, and then I showed how my priorities were listed and then Like what my natural inclination is placing like love and belonging at the top. [00:08:59] And then I showcased how I've intentionally consciously listed them and rearranged the priority and how that affects my decision making in my day to day so that I spend more of my time in my day to day moving towards the top priorities, which are not on my new adjusted priority list are not the love and connection related things related to family, sex, relationship, stuff like that. So above that, I've placed God at the top which is, for some of you that might be your highest ideal, whatever that is. And so I want to always be pointed towards my highest ideal. Second, I put power, achievement, impact, and that's related money status, all that. [00:09:41] And that allows me to have impact. Which leads to me getting what I want. It's a leading sort of thing. And then the next is health. I need to be prioritizing health. And then it gets into more of the relationship stuff in the priorities. Whereas before I was putting family, friends, fun was probably higher on the list, but I felt like I wasn't ever able to do as much of that as I wanted. [00:10:04] Because I was so focused on the other stuff. And so by reordering the priorities, it takes work. Like it takes effort to go towards what's easy and what's natural usually leads to a harder life. And so there's this stoic phrase that I like that is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:10:26] And the hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term, playing the long game, doing what maybe I feel deep down inside I should do connected when I'm connected to God or focusing on my health, doing the playing the long game instead of doing the short term, right? [00:10:49] The short term is like eat, Häagen Dazs vanilla ice cream, vanilla bean ice cream. It's like my favorite right now. I love that. Or whatever, right? When we're just trying to please our tongue and our genitals, we tend to have a much harder life, right? And this is the short term. We're just going for the short term gain. [00:11:05] And so we want to make sure we prioritize the long game, the long term. and give up where that means sacrifice in the short term. That means work. That means effort. And a lot of people just aren't putting in enough work or enough effort in the lazy people in society are the people that are always trying to please their tongue and their genitals. [00:11:24] Maybe it's crass, my crass way of saying it. Okay. It's a little gross. Okay. So that's what I shared at DoorGrow Live. And so I encourage all of you listening, like make a list. What are your priorities? And what I shared is your results reveal your priorities. So if you don't like the results in your life, write them down. [00:11:43] Like, what are your relationships like? What's your business like? What are you doing in the business? What aren't you doing in the business? Or what are you enjoying? What are you not enjoying? And if you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order. It doesn't mean you give up or change your priorities, right? All of the things that were my priorities before are still priorities for me. I've just rearranged the order and by just rearranging the order, it changes everything. It changes the results that you get and you'll get more of the results that you really desire if you rearrange those priorities in a way that probably will take you more effort and more work, but will allow you to get everything that you want in the long run. [00:12:28] So that was my message. That's the simple message. Rearrange your priorities figure out your basic need, put that lower on the list, and figure out what needs to come before in order for you to have as much of that as possible because I want you to enjoy your life, but you need to do make hard choices. [00:12:41] And you need to do hard things.  [00:12:43] But it was an awesome event and make sure you are keeping an eye on doorgrowlive.com for the future and make sure to attend in the future. [00:12:52] Everybody says our conferences are different than any other property management conference out there. And That's a good thing. Like we do it in a good way. So, I recommend you attend. So you can check out more details about future events at doorgrowlive.Com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business and have success like our clients were showcasing at DoorGrow Live and grow your business, scale your operations, have a better lifestyle, enjoy your team more, enjoy your business, be less frustrated, have more peace, reach out to us at DoorGrow. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to see if we can help you scale your business. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:02] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for an insightful episode of the VRTAC-QM Manager Minute as Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM team share their expertise on case management systems. Brittny, an expert in Program and Performance within our Quality Management team, and Sarah, the Program Director for Fiscal and Resource Management, delve into best practices and the growing trend of states seeking to upgrade their systems. Learn about the nuances of state requests and the RFP process, and gain valuable knowledge to help you decide whether it's time to stay with your current system or make a move. Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brittny: Avoid over customizing the system. There's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies, and so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well.   Sarah: Silos, how do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times, and I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships.   Brittny: Be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today I'm thrilled to have two of my esteemed colleagues, Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM, joining me in the studio today. So, Brittny, how's it going for you?   Brittny: It's going great. How about you?   Carol: Awesome. I'm better for seeing your smiling face this morning. And how about you, Miss Clardy? How are you doing?   Sarah: I'm great. Great to kick off a new week.   Carol: Excellent. So for our listeners, Brittny serves on the program and performance side of our QM team. And Sarah is the program director for the fiscal and resource management side of our QM team. And both of these ladies have extensive experience with case management systems. And during one of our regular Core QM Team meetings, I asked the team, I'm like, hey, what are some potential podcast ideas? And Brittny said, you know what? There are a lot of state voc rehab agencies on a quest right now for a new case management system. Either your state is requesting you to do another request for proposal or you're just like, hey, is there something better out there? So with lots of new players that have entered the market, your case management system is a lifeline. And if it's not functioning optimally, it can really lead to some significant issues. So we just wanted to have a conversation today that can help to guide you through this journey with open eyes. So let's dig in. So of course our listeners always like to know, like how did you people get into VR? Everybody wonders, like what's your story? So I want to hear from each of you about kind of your journey into VR. So Sarah, I'm going to kick it off with you.   Sarah: So many of you know Ron Vessell, he's a staple around VR. Ron actually hired me back in the year 2000. I was a very green government accountant just starting out, didn't know what I was getting into, and they took a chance on a new, young professional. And so I did a deep dive early in my career and never looked back.   Carol: Very nice, I love that. How about you, Britt? How did you find your way into VR? You came a little different way.   Brittny: Yeah, I think it was definitely a unique path. I actually worked in criminal justice at the prison system as a counselor for quite some time. They were privatizing the position, which meant we were kind of losing benefits. We're no longer going to be a state employee. So I started looking around for other counseling positions. And at my time at the prison, I found that there was a lot of individuals with disabilities and a lot of obstacles that we had to address and assist with while we were there. And so when I seen the position at VR, I was very interested in it interviewed. And that's where I got my start about 14 years ago.   Carol: And which state was that in? Britt.   Brittny: That was in.Indiana.   Carol: Yeah. That's cool. I think that's great. So you worked with Teresa?   Brittny: Yes.   Carol: Very good.   Brittny: I always joke and say my four years at the prison. And then I have to clarify when I was working.   Carol: I love that. In fact, we had a guest last month that also had come up through the correctional system as well. It was really fun, but that definitely having that skill set behind you coming into VR is super important, really needed. So let's talk a little bit about your work. Both of you do for the QM. Just so our listeners have a little sense. And Britt, I'm going to start with you about that. Like can you give them a little flavor kind of for what you do in this TA world?   Brittny: Yeah, as you mentioned I work on the performance team. So really all things performance. But we help agencies address performance related needs. So this can be anywhere from training on performance measures to data analysis on performance data, reviewing policy procedures, internal controls and sometimes even assessing the system impact around performance and seeing how that impacts the reporting pieces.   Carol: Yeah, I love our performance team, the stuff you guys do, and you're so good at your analysis and really looking at taking that data and really digging in deep as to what's going on. So it's a very, very important piece of what is happening out there for our VR programs as we're delivering that technical assistance. How about you, Sarah?   Sarah: I have the great pleasure of leading the financial arm of the VRTACQM, and understanding that the VR award is the probably the most complex award within the grants management world. It really covers a wide array of skills and knowledge and isn't just financial based, it's also program based. So under the QM, we help agencies sort of manage the grant from the whole life cycle perspective, making sure that all the federal requirements are met, taking a look at individual state requirements, how those two things intersect, and we spend a lot of time, probably the majority of my time is actually spent in the period of performance arena, and specifically as it relates to this topic today with case management service systems.   Carol: Excellent. So, Brittny, you had mentioned the issue of people are looking for a new case management system. And I know as of late it feels like we've had at least a half a dozen folks saying, you know, we're doing a new RFP. We either have to for the state or we're going out for a new system. What advice do you have kind of off the bat for people who are considering venturing into this new RFP process?   Brittny: Yeah, I think before writing the RFP, I think it's important for the state or the agency to do some research on what systems are out there. A lot of agencies are writing an RFP based on what their current system does, and they end up with a very similar system. The process and all the hard work of getting a new system can be really exciting. It could mean new innovative features and easier case management process, which leads to improved efficiency, improve services and outcomes. You could find a system that would help with documentation times. You can reduce that, and then that way the counselor can spend more time with their participants. So I think just seeing what's out there and what's available to help you write that RFP is huge.   Carol: Sarah, how about you? What's your perspective on making sure those fiscal pieces are addressed as they are thinking about RFPing?   Sarah: Oh goodness. There's so many perspectives to consider here. I think first and foremost states need to understand period of performance. I feel like that's a term that we make really complicated. And it's really nothing more than just looking at the funding sources that are available and understanding the timeline that agencies can obligate and expend funds. So I think, first and foremost, understanding period of performance. The second key piece really is understanding state requirements. We have a lot of states that aren't either aware of what their state requires, or there are things that are in place that they think is required by the state. And when we start doing a deep dive into what that looks like, sometimes those things really aren't state requirements. It's something that somebody put into place years ago that everybody just thought was what was required. So I think understanding those two things. And then third, I would say understanding what your end game is when you're working with a fiscal and a case management system, and we're looking at just sheer fund accounting and tracking those funds all the way through and then being able to report at the end of that cycle. And so I oftentimes will tell states, if you kind of look at the end game, look at the reporting that's required at the end, it really kind of establishes the things that are necessary along the way in terms of system adaptations, structure, configuration.   Carol: So definitely I'm going to tie you two together when a state is going out and they're looking at doing the RFP, you want to really think about your complete process so that you've got all the right team members in place from the get go, which can't just be the program side of your house. And I remember us doing this back in Minnesota as we were going through the requirements. It's like, what are those fiscal people doing here? They're all important. Like you need all the pieces together, talking through how this system is going to work, how you're going to connect to your statewide accounting system. So that becomes really important. Now, I know I was on a call, I want to say within the last three, four months and we had a state say, yeah, we're thinking about RFP for a new system to go into place January 1st. And Brittny, I want to kick this to you. What is a realistic time frame if somebody is considering a new case management system, is it really possible to do that in, uh, maybe eight months or so or not? What do you think is a good timeline?   Brittny: I think this really depends on several factors as far as a timeline when considering a new case management system, typically it could take up to six months to develop that RFP. And it's really doing some background homework, seeing what's out there, doing a business process analysis and understanding your own business processes. But typically, I'd say depending on agency size, how many years of converted data you're looking at, converting it into the new system. And I know there's federal requirements, but there's also state requirements that are sometimes even longer than the federal ones. And then also if there's any interfaces. So if you have other systems that are connecting to your current case management system, this is going to make a huge difference, because now you've got a lot of different teams having to help out with the specifications and then also test the system. So you've got to think of their timelines as well. And then lastly just that preparedness piece. So how much work did you do up front on the RFP. How much have you analyzed your business processes. And like Sarah had mentioned, are these things that somebody put into place ten years ago, or are these things that are actually a state policy or a federal policy that you're aligning with? I think the typical timeline that I typically see is around 18 to 24 months for the full implementation once you sign in that contract. But again, that could range short or longer depending on that prep work and then that agency size and things like that.   Carol: So eight months is probably a little aggressive.   Brittny: Yeah very, aggressive yeah. But optimistic I like it.   Carol: I love it. So what are some pitfalls that we want to help our listeners avoid as they're kind of tackling this process? And Sarah, I'm going to kick that to you first.   Sarah: First and foremost. And I think the listeners are probably going to see a recurring theme here, as Brittny said, not just taking current system functionality and developing that into a checklist or using that to develop the specifications. I think really sitting down and outlining what are the requirements, what are the things that we're using right now? Where did that come from? And the possibilities going into this process allows a lot of opportunity to think outside the box and think about what are the things that systems currently aren't doing, or things that are requiring a lot more work right now where we could really get creative and do some really cool things. So I think avoiding the pitfall of just not spending that time up front to understand what it is that agencies need, and then also, again, bringing fiscal and program together to understand the requirements from a physical standpoint. A lot of times that is kicked to the finance folks in the House, we're still seeing in a lot of agencies a breakdown or a gap between program and fiscal, and there's a lot of danger and not bringing those two teams together to understand on both sides of the coin, what is it that we need to do? Oftentimes within that space is where a lot of the creative ideas come out and allow greater efficiencies within the agency and more internal controls.   Carol: Very good. Britt, what do you think about pitfalls? What are some things that we could help our folks avoid?   Brittny: Yeah, I once talked to a chief technology officer and he said the two main reasons why usually a case management system implementation fails is because of fiscal and data validation. So hitting those two pieces very hard, making sure that you're not only converting the data into the system, it's almost like that toy where you've got a round circle and you've got to fit it in the round circle. The data conversion doesn't always work like that, and sometimes you're trying to fit that round circle into a square peg. And that's because the way the systems line up. So making sure that you've got individuals on the front end in different roles, looking at that data and then also testing that RSA 911 to make sure things are mapped correctly and going in correctly before you go into production. At one example I've seen of that is significance of disability. And so one system may calculate significance of disability a little bit differently than another system. And even though they've got everything mapped together, doesn't always go hand in hand and can cause some major issues. The fiscal piece, I think Sarah mentioned that quite a bit, but just making sure that you're doing heavy testing and understanding how the system will work, especially when you go into production. Working in a new system, the biggest ones are dealing with authorizations that already have partial payments on it, draft authorizations, pending payments, amending an authorization, and vendor logic. These are all pieces that may be different in that new system. So making sure you're testing every angle and you're prepared for that transition. I think a third suggestion is just my personal preference would be to avoid over customizing the system. So there's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies. And so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well. And sometimes those states like to over customize that system just because they want to have what they've always had. But that ends up being sometimes pretty expensive down the road, because then you're paying for additional testing and maintenance of that customization. So I'd be open minded to changing business processes, or see if you could find your business processes met in a different way and achieving that same result.   Carol: Yeah, I like it. I remember when we had our new case management system and it was built. We went in with all our partners, our WIOA partners, and so we had this kind of groovy new system, but it was supposed to meet all these different needs. Well, it gets complicated, but we couldn't forget about our field people because a lot of those folks in the field. So while you're talking to program, you know, a lot of times it's supervisors and different folks are involved. Having those direct field staff, your VR techs and your counselors who are inputting stuff every day and they're like, hey, this weird thing over here, you know, they may not talk techie, but they can explain the stuff that isn't working so well in getting all of those ideas right from them so they can see, hey, they really can help to impact and influence the system is important.   Brittny: Definitely.   Sarah: You know, Carol, along the lines of what Brittny just shared too, I think there's a caution there in terms of customizations that are in existing systems, whether it's an off the shelf system or a homegrown system. We have a number of agencies that have their own in-house systems. Sometimes there are customizations that work for a particular state or might work for a group of states, but it's not applicable to all states. Again, because we go back to those state requirements. And then sometimes when agencies implement that, it causes some compliance issues because of their own local procurement standards. So asking the question, you know, if they're developing those specifications and not just taking everything from what they're doing or is offered to them currently, but really looking at it with a cursory eye to determine, is this something that we need or we even can use because we're seeing period of performance compliance issues from some system functionalities that are in place that worked for other states that aren't necessarily a one size fits all.   Carol: I think one thing I've noticed too, and I just noticed from the periphery, you know, it's really statewide IT systems and the IT groups have been put together. You know, we see that consolidation happening where you may have had your own IT folks that you were dealing with, and now you have a State Department of IT or something. There's some other consolidated area that has put together different processes or requirements. So I think for some folks, if you're used to maybe the old way when you were entering into this process and maybe doing an RFP and you had more control over everything, you may have a little less because you do have now these sort of statewide IT system requirements. And so it's really important to get hooked up with those folks as well, especially for listeners who may have not done this for a while. Maybe, you know, it's been a long minute since you have looked at your case management system, and you were remembering back a decade ago when it was a little easier. You could just do something a little more at the drop of a dime. But I think the benefit that having those statewide IT groups is they have so much experience. And when they're looking at how they really address putting out an RFP and they can have a lot of their expertise to bring to the table to make sure this gets put together really well. You just want to remember that you may have some other things in play that you didn't have a long time ago. Just a thought. Alright, I know Brittny, when we were talking to you, had some ideas on cool stuff and I love cool stuff. Like, you know, if you're doing your case management system, you said, well, gee, don't, don't just recreate the same old thing like you want to put cool things in place. So do you have ideas like new technology or features or things people could include in their request?   Brittny: Yeah, I've seen dashboards where there's visual dashboards and graphs or pie charts that assist the counselor and case management. So seeing how many individuals they've got enrolled in an education program and how many of those individuals have earned an MSG in the last performance year. And this allows them to check those that haven't and reach out to those participants. I've also seen a central print and mail where the state's just actually the agency put a checkbox in there, and they've got an interface with a local company and that company, they hit the checkbox and everything gets bashed up that night for a letter or anything that they want to mail. And there's a mass every night they mail out all these letters. So that way the counselor could be anywhere. They could be at the school, out in the field, anywhere, mail out a letter, and not have to worry about printing something off and stuffing that envelope. I've also seen invoice payment systems. So systems where vendors can apply to be a vendor, they can document what services agree to terms, things like that. The agency can review them and approve them in there. And then that system can work back and forth with authorizations and payments. So an authorization could be drafted in the case management system could shoot over to this invoice payment system. That vendor can view it, upload documents, invoice against it, put reports and things like that in there, and they can communicate back and forth to one another. I've also seen states exploring various ways to integrate artificial intelligence and case management systems. So I know you did a podcast on one that was kind of outside the case management system, but I'm hearing a lot of states be interested in how to integrate it in the case management system, whether it's in case notes or informed decisions across. So I'm really excited to see what states come up with and how they're able to integrate that within. But I think that's a great idea.   Carol: I love that whole area of artificial intelligence. It was super fun when we did the podcast with Washington General, because they had that really cool piece that was, you know, an add on. It was kind of outside of the system. But boy, the staff love it. But there's a lot of possibilities. I know we were kicking around on the team about ways you could use AI within VR. I mean, when you think about the development of plans, even the way you speak about things, to make it more plain language, and I still I think people are so freaked out a little bit about AI and you go, gosh, it's all over. You know, it is in our whole world. It's when you're talking to Siri or Alexa, you know, every day you go to the airport and you're getting your eyes scanned to get through, Clear whatever you may do. It's just integrated into everything we do. I think that is a really fun, developing new area that has a lot of possibility for the case management systems. Sarah, did you have any ideas too, about any cool possible groovy tools? Maybe fiscally related? I didn't mean to put you on the spot.   Sarah: No, that's okay. We haven't seen as much innovation on the fiscal side, although I think that there are a lot of opportunities. I think, again, in the AI world, I think mapping that out, looking for the possibilities, it goes back to what I said earlier, just being an innovative thinker and looking at what are the challenges and efficiencies that we're battling and what are some of those possibilities that we can use to address that. Staff recruitment retention continues to be a challenge in our VR world and especially in the fiscal arena. And as staff look to bolster their internal controls and the program at large, looking for some of those opportunities. So I don't know that I have as many cool things like Brittny shares, but I'm hoping that we'll see those on the horizon.   Carol: Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot of possibility out there now. I know Sarah, you had developed a tool that coincided with the 2023 spring CSV conference because a lot of folks were asking like, okay, what do I do with my case management system and the fiscal requirements and all of that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because even though we felt like we widely publicized it, people are still like what? There was a tool. I don't know anything about it.   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still excited about it. So we developed a fiscal technology checklist for case services last year in conjunction with the period of performance training that we offered at the conference. And we found that in our technical assistance to state VR agencies around this topic, there's a gap in communication between either the CMS companies and VR, or even if an agency has their own internal program, a gap in communication between the program and fiscal and whoever those IT experts are. So we took that opportunity to map out all of the areas to consider. And so when we're working with agencies under the VRTAC-QM to analyze their processes and look at how their systems are set up, there's a linear fashion and way of looking at that. For instance, is the system set up on a state fiscal year or a federal fiscal year? There's a lot of agencies that have a system set up on a state year that really doesn't make sense for reporting, and it's causing a lot of challenges on the financial side with producing reports for the RSA 17, for example. And they thought that that's the way they had to have it set up. There's very few states that have very state specific requirements that would necessitate that. So it's not that it never would work, but it involves sort of a deep dive into why do we have our systems set up and is that necessary? The other big piece are the budgets. How are budgets set up within the system? Does it map out to the available fund sources that are available to the agency? And then there's a ton of bells and whistles that act as internal controls in the back of a case management system that really dictate how the system behaves and helps the agency navigate through period of performance. And so it's going through a whole list of considerations to make sure that the agency is well equipped to manage period of performance, manage those different fund sources and make them able to do that reporting at the end. So it's a really good list. And honestly, as states are struggling with that communication piece, particularly with the companies that they work with or through the process to develop a new case management system, it's a very nice way of considering all of those different elements that need to go into either evaluating the current system or looking at a new system to make sure that it's meeting exactly what their state requires while still taking into account those federal requirements. So we're constantly reverting folks back to that list, and hopefully agencies are taking the time to sit down as a team and combining the program and fiscal staff to walk through that, to make sure that they understand all of those elements. And if they have questions, we have a number of trainings that we offer through the VRTAC-QM to assist with that. We've even had some agencies seek out that training before they start developing those lists for their RFPs, to make sure that they both understand from a physical standpoint what all those requirements are. So anyway, it's Fiscal Technology Checklist for Case Services. It is on our website, I'm sure. Carol, you're probably going to mention that and hint, hint it is available to the public. So I know that there's been some current CMS companies that have gone out and looked at that piece also, so that they can better understand and hopefully fill in the gap for that communication gap exists so that everybody's talking the same language and on the same page.   Carol: Yes, of course, I have to make a shameless plug for our lovely website. So you will go to vRTAC-QM.org and we have a top navigation header. You can go right to resources and everything's listed under the CSAVR Spring 2023 Session Recordings and Materials. And it actually was Session Two is where you can find that checklist. But if you scroll through you can actually listen to Sarah's session recording. And then you can see the checklist there as well, as well as all of our other awesome sessions from the 2023 Spring Conference. Oh, thanks for that. So how about other words of wisdom from you fine ladies? Because I think of you both as just like, oh my gosh, such powerhouses in the case management system. Brittny, I'm going to go to you first.   Brittny: I've got a few. I think the first one is to be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. So I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes. I would also allocate staff specifically for this project, and I think we mentioned it already a little bit earlier. But looking at those projects subject matter experts and making sure you've got the right people at the table. So this is going to be administration, IT, but also your fiscal people, your front end people. It's really important to make sure that you have some direct service or direct field staff that are knowledgeable and have a long agency history that you can integrate into that project as well, and they can provide feedback. I would also have a designated project manager that could be somebody. You within your department, or that could be somebody that you decide to contract out. But I think it's important that they have that project management experience because it is a giant project, and it is going to take quite some time to get from that RFP contract to implementation. I'd also weave in changes as much as you can. So during the project, you'll start to have the opportunity to see the differences between the two systems, your current one and your new system. And so if there's any way that you can weave in changes early and often, this will help that transition for staff much, much easier. And then also as you're preparing or updating revising business processes, that also helps with that piece of it. I've seen states do statewide quarterly demos to kind of show staff the new system and help them kind of process that change along the way. And lastly, I would definitely emphasize not to overlook accessibility. I'd pull in your accessibility users early to begin testing the system, and then also integrating those accessibility terms into training documents. I think one thing I learned is that using language accessibility language is huge. I couldn't imagine trying to learn a new system and somebody saying, use a dropdown box. But yet my system is calling it a combo box. So using that terminology and making this transition much easier for all staff.   Carol: Awesome points. I want to highlight a couple, that be curious. I can't emphasize that enough. There are so many agencies where I'm going to call it urban Legend. You're doing something because everybody always says, RSA said. You have to do that and RSA will come out. I've been in monitoring. They're like, we never told you that. Whatever that is in your system, you made that up like you made that happen. So I love that being curious because you want to ask questions. A lot of times you just go with the flow. You know, somebody put it in play 20 years ago and then you just keep bringing it forward. So I love that. And definitely when you talk about dedicating staff, you want to make sure you dedicate those staff, but you also want to think about all of the other roles that have been assigned to that person. You cannot put them as the project manager of this whole project, and they're still maintaining all their field services duties and doing all the other stuff, because this really is a full time job. And I know I'm going to apologize right here to Natasha Jerde. We had her as a project manager for our new case management system. At the same time, she's, you know, rewriting our policy and procedure manual and doing a million other things because I just had zero clue at how much went into this. And that was really it's really terrible. And I've actually seen some of the staff across the country burn out. We've had people retire early. They're like the case management system process killed me. So when you're dedicating staff, please do give them some time to do it. And don't expect that they're not going to work an 80 hour workweek because that is not so fabulous. But I loved your points, Brittny, those are great. How about you, Sarah? Any words of wisdom?   Sarah: Yes, thank you. I think we constantly hear from state agencies about silos. How do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times in our discussion today, but I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships and I know even from the agency that I came from, the introduction that I had to the program side was through a new case management system conversion. And at first I showed up at the table. And Carol, like you said earlier, people were like, who invited her? Why is she here? Does she need to be here? People wouldn't talk and share ideas. And then as we both committed to developing that relationship and understanding one another better, not only did we end up with a quality product, but we had quality services, we had better management and leadership within the agency. So looking at it as an opportunity sort of through that lens, engage the folks in the field as well. Sometimes as leaders, we tackle these types of projects and we think the folks in the field are too busy. And really the best ideas can come from our counselors and those individuals who are supporting in those roles our field staff, our fiscal agents. And I know we have a separate training on that that we offer VR agencies, but engaging them in that process and getting their ideas on, hey, what's working and what's not working? What are the challenges that you're facing so that as you are curious to Brittny's point, you're taking into consideration maybe some of those wins that you can secure on the other side and maybe cut out some process or things while still meeting those requirements and engaging in those efficiencies. The other thing I would offer, and we're having lots of discussions now about fiscal forecasting and spending strategies within VR agencies, as VR agencies are getting over the hump of Covid and taking a look at what their spending looks like, the case management system really is a system of record. And as we look at the statewide accounting system and in its function, we can't ignore the case management system and the role that it plays in navigating through all those fiscal requirements. And so if we think about the CMS sort of as the VR checkbook, and when we are authorizing for services and obligating funds, not only are there requirements around how to do that and how to capture that, looking at the individual sources of funds that we have available, it really is a way to capture those obligations within a checkbook so that we can take a look at any point in time from a leadership standpoint, what is our financial position? And so being able to look at how much do I have in my 23 carryover checkbook and how much do I have in 24. And plan ahead so that I can make decisions around re-allotment and I can think ahead so that we're not leaving funds on the table and lapsing funds at the back end of our of our award. It really is important that we look at how we capture all of that in the case management system in a way that allows us to continue managing our programs with a strong fiscal focus. So tying all of that in is also important at a higher level, so that we can use the data to make quality financial decisions.   Carol: Well said, well said. So in case our listeners want to get a hold of either of you, would you mind sharing your email address, Brittny?   Brittny: Yes, definitely. My email address is bMacIver So m a c I v e r@sdsu.edu. It's also available on our VRTAC website. If you go to our staff you'll see my email address there as well.   Carol: Excellent. Sarah, how about you.   Sarah: Yes thank you. It's sClardy. so, that's s c l a r d y at Sdsu.Edu.   Carol: Thanks so much I appreciate you both joining me today. Have a great one, you guys.   Brittny: Thanks.   Sarah: Thank you.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

If you have been struggling to grow your property management business, you might have been prioritizing the wrong things… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how having the right priorities and getting support helps with business growth. You'll Learn [01:30] Are you prioritizing the right things? [08:30] Why you CAN'T do everything yourself [20:20] How prioritizing safety might hinder growth [27:30] Why you should be willing to take risks [30:50] Prioritize results and get those results Tweetables “You may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order.” “I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because ‘we want it done right' means ‘done according to my set of values.'” “Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.” “You can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:00:06] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. Like, pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:56] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:25] I did the intro right this time I think. I didn't screw it up. We could just have it prerecorded, people. You never know what you're going to get. Okay. So I was thinking about what we could talk about this morning and I've been doing some reflection and some study and the topic that just keeps coming up in my mind is prioritization and priorities. [00:01:44] In fact, I'll probably talk a little bit about that and do an exercise with some of the cool people that are coming to DoorGrowLive. Cause I really think if you're not experiencing growth and you're not having the success that you want, you're not getting the results that you want in business and life, then it's pretty simple. It's just that your priorities are out of alignment with you getting the results that you want. And you may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order. And so you're prioritizing something over the thing that if you prioritize would give you the results that you actually want in your life. [00:02:20] And so I was thinking about this question and I threw it out to Sarah while she's getting ready this morning. And I said, "what are people prioritizing over growth?" Because the people that come into our program, the work with us, they get great results. They are different. They're prioritizing growth over certain other things. [00:02:39] And so people that don't work with us, why do they not spend money on coaching? Why don't they invest in coaching? And so why don't we go to Sarah and find out, what do you think? Why are people not spending money on coaching? Like where entrepreneurs at in their journey that mentally that's preventing them from spending money on a coach, moving the business forward or working towards growth? [00:03:05] Sarah: Well, I think there's a few reasons that this could be the case. And one might be that people don't even know what a coach would do, right? Like, "how would a coach help me?" And some people might not even be aware that that's an option.  [00:03:22] Jason: Got it.  [00:03:22] Sarah: I wasn't for a very, very long time. Even when I was running my business, I didn't know, "Hey, there's people that will help you." [00:03:30] Jason: Okay. That's fair enough. So what cracked your mind open to the idea or possibility of coaching?  [00:03:38] Sarah: Well, honestly, it was you. You're really big on coaching. I had never had a coach in my life. Ever. And when you and I had moved in together, you are so big on coaching and you do a variety of different types and styles of working with coaches. [00:04:00] And some of it is mastermind style and some of it is one on one and some of it is event type. And I realized, "wow, this is really great." Like, I just did not make that connection and realization that there are people who genuinely want to help other people succeed in life and in business.  [00:04:21] Jason: So I want to clarify what you're saying. [00:04:26] Clarify something. Some people listening will hear, "Oh, Jason's into coaching. Yeah, we know he coaches people. That's what he does. It's what he's trying to sell." And what you're saying is you saw me getting coached.  [00:04:38] Sarah: Oh yes, working with coaches.  [00:04:39] Jason: Working with coaches, joining masterminds. Like I'm the student.  [00:04:43] Sarah: I knew what you did when obviously when I met you.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:46] Sarah: But I also saw you embody that and you work with a lot of coaches yourself. And in seeing you and the business, our business, work with coaches, that was something I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. That helps a lot." Because coaches, especially when you work with a coach that's been there, done that... because there's a lot of coaches that they don't really know. They're like, "well, this was a great theory." But when you work with a coach that has. done the thing and gotten the result and had that experience and now they can talk about it and they can share their experience and they can share their knowledge and they can say, "Hey, I tried this and it didn't work. So avoid this," and "Hey, this got me in some hot water, so definitely don't do that," And, "this was really successful and here's how I did it and here's why I did it this way. And I kept testing and refining." And then they can share that knowledge with you. And when I started experiencing that in DoorGrow, With the coaches that we worked with, that was something that I was like, "Oh, well, that would have been nice to know." [00:05:52] Jason: And Sarah learns super fast. Like I've always been super impressed by how quick you adopt new information or new ideas. Like most people I think it takes a while for people to absorb certain things, but some things you're just like, "yeah." And you're like, "let's do coaching." [00:06:05] And we've tried lots of different coaches out together. Like some not good.  [00:06:09] Sarah: Some are not good.  [00:06:10] Jason: Right. It's like a...  [00:06:12] Sarah: colossal waste of money.  [00:06:14] Jason: Some really good.  [00:06:15] Sarah: Some really good.  [00:06:16] Jason: Some we weren't ready for. We just like didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth to work with them.  [00:06:21] Sarah: Mm hmm.  [00:06:22] Jason: We just had so much going on. [00:06:23] Like we took on too much. Maybe we had too many coaches at a time, something like this. Right. Even right now, like I'm onboarding and I'm coaching and training two new sales team members, plus my son in learning setting and sales. But I went and got outside help. So I have a coach right now that's coaching me and them. [00:06:45] And then I'm spending each day coaching them, but each week we're meeting with a coach and he's an expert in sales and he's helping us go to another level and work on scripts and work on our communication, work on language. And that's been really helpful. I'm always leveling up my skills. [00:06:59] And I think it's important to never get comfortable. And I think for me, I just try to imagine like if I didn't have coaches or mentors and I'm every day trying to like coach people and sell coaching to me, that would feel like a gross lack of integrity. Feels like I'd be grossly out of alignment, and a lot of the coaches that we have, I found them through coaching programs that we were in with them. Right. And so I know that they believe in coaching and they're in integrity. And I know that they're in the areas, at least that I am seeking help in, they are ahead of me in that game. And and so I can trust them. [00:07:39] There's evidence they can help get results and they've given some value already. And so I'm like, "okay, I should, we should work with them." And I think that's one of the challenges. And so everybody out there, if you're like, " why am I not spending money on coaching or why don't I have a coach?" [00:07:52] I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think just as a side note, if you're going to get a coach, don't work with a coach that doesn't have a coach , right? If they went through one program one time, they're like, "I went through this coaching program and got a certificate one time." Then do they really believe in coaching? [00:08:10] No. They just believed in getting the appearance of being a good coach and they're not actually a coachable person. I believe in order to be able to coach others, you have to also be coachable and being able be able to learn. I learned a massive amount just by coaching, coaching clients and supporting them. [00:08:29] And so let's get into what people maybe are prioritizing instead of growth. If they're not growing. Because some people are listening to this and they're like, "well, I've been stuck at the same number of doors I've been at for like two, three years." So what priority might be off or what are they prioritizing that's different? [00:08:45] What might be off? What are some of the things they're prioritizing?  [00:08:48] Sarah: I think one of the big things is this need to control everything. And I understand because I am a control freak. I get it. And for a long, long time, I had always said, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." [00:09:08] So, why would I ask somebody else to do this thing, and then I'm just going to have to go check and see if they did it the right way? And "oh, they made a mistake, so now I have to... it's just easier and faster for me to just go and do it myself!" Right? Instead of teaching somebody or training somebody or just asking them to do it, but then really secretly I'm going to go and check and see if they actually did it. [00:09:28] So delegation for me was very hard for a very long time. Because I am very detail oriented, and very OCD, and very organized, and I'm very particular in how things get done. So, I believe there's a right way, and a wrong way to do just about every task that there is.  [00:09:49] Jason: Yeah, that's very, very INTJ thinking of you. [00:09:53] But I'm not incorrect. Most of the time, you're not, right? And so, if you want it done right, you do it yourself. Is that true? Sometimes, right? Like there's a lot of situations where that's true. The challenge is: could it be possible that if somebody else did it, it could be done better than you? [00:10:12] Right. That could be true too. And so I think getting a coach is you start to recognize where you might have gaps and the ultimate evidence is our results. If we're not getting the results that we want, then maybe we're not the person that should be doing that thing. Because we're not getting the results and we're doing it. [00:10:29] So it's us, right? But yeah, I think that's a belief that a lot of people have in the beginning. "I want it done right." And I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because "we want it done right" means "done according to my set of values." There's lots of different ways to do something and the outcome could be similar or could work or could be positive, but we have certain values that we want it done in a certain way to be the right way. [00:10:54] The right way. Yes. And INTJs very much feel there's a right way and a wrong way for everything. The challenge is a lot of times, if we're super rigid and believing we always have the right way, we can't see around corners. There's certain personality types, though, that can see a lot more opportunity and a lot more variety of options. [00:11:13] And they usually can crack those strong J's brains open, that are judging, to some new ideas and new possibilities. And eventually they'll adopt those, right? And so that's, I think where we have a nice balance in our relationship is you're usually right. A lot of things and very strategic brain and can figure stuff out and you're like, something's off here. [00:11:35] You're very intuitive. And and usually right when you're like, "something's not right here." And then also, I'm very good at seeing alternatives, other possibilities, and exposing you to some other options or some other ideas.  [00:11:48] Sarah: Yes. And you're also very good at human emotions.  [00:11:52] Jason: Oh. [00:11:52] Sarah: I'm not good at human emotion. [00:11:54] Jason: Right.  [00:11:55] Sarah: You're like, "well, you can't do that because it'll make people feel like this." And I'm like, "so?" [00:12:01] Jason: Yeah, yeah, this is a constant frustration. You're like, "why won't people just do what I told them to do when I just tell them one time in a very succinct way, exactly what I want?  [00:12:11] Sarah: Right? Like I have all the answers, just listen and then do what I tell you to do! That's it. Like, it's so easy. I feel like life would be so much easier if you just listen. [00:12:22] Jason: And so the one advantage, one of my maybe few advantages over you cognitively maybe is the idea that I can empathize a bit more with other people and I can figure out what would it take to get this installed into their brain? [00:12:38] What would make this digestible for them? What would make this palatable? What would make them able to adopt or absorb this idea or to remember this idea or for this to work? And you're like, "just tell them!" Because I can just tell you and you get it. And you'll get annoyed if I start to explain and use analogy. [00:12:53] Sarah: I got it, I got it.  [00:12:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Sarah: Give me the thing that I need.  [00:12:56] Jason: Those things are very effective. I got it. Other people.  [00:12:58] Sarah: And now I'm going to go and do it. That's how I work.  [00:13:01] I think other people work like that too, but sometimes they don't and it's crazy to me! I don't... crazy!  [00:13:07] Jason: So I think one of the things that people prioritize over growth sometimes is that self struggle. Like there's people that value doing it themselves. [00:13:17] Like even as a little kid, my daughter, Madi, I would try to tie her shoelaces and she didn't even know how to do it! And she would say, "no, I do it! I do it!"  [00:13:25] Like she wouldn't let me do it.  [00:13:26] Sarah: Hey Madi.  [00:13:27] Jason: Madi edits our podcast, so she'll see this. She wanted to do it. And I'd be like, "okay." [00:13:32] And she's just sitting there struggling. But she was determined and eventually she figured it out and eventually she might be frustrated enough to allow me to help her. Right? And sometimes we have to allow people to struggle, but a lot of times we're self struggling and it's self imposed and we're not having success in our business or success in growth or adding doors or making more money or retaining clients or whatever it might be. And we're so stuck on this idea of self struggle, which is DIY, right? "I'm going to do it myself." and I've been this guy. I'll watch YouTube videos. I'll read books. I will figure it all out on my own. [00:14:06] " I'm smart enough. I can do this." And what I want to say to everybody listening, that that's you. You're right. You're totally right. You are smart enough to figure everything out eventually, it's just going to take you probably a decade longer than somebody that goes and gets coaching or gets helped. And I've been that I've done that. [00:14:24] Jason: I've spent like a decade doing stupid stuff. I'm in my forties. I've spent at least a decade doing some things and struggling with some things before I got help with it. And the amount of time somebody that already has succeeded at this or knows what works can collapse for you in the experimentation, in the struggles, in the financial risks, in the time wasting is pretty significant, like dramatically significant. [00:14:48] I've had mentors... I have one mentor. I paid him three grand a month and it was the biggest expense ever. Like I signed up for this coach and I immediately was like in a short period of time was making 30 grand more a month. That's a pretty decent return. Right? And I would have been stupid to not have done that, but it was a calculated risk. [00:15:07] At the time I was in a dysfunctional marriage and my wife at the time cried when I told her I was spending three grand a month, and we've spent a lot more than three grand a month on some of our coaches and mentors.  [00:15:19] Sarah: At the time three grand was a lot and it was scary.  [00:15:21] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:15:22] That was my first dive into high ticket coach. Yes. Working with the coach.  [00:15:26] Sarah: Yes, and I think the other thing to point out too about working with someone else is that It's not always about, "well, I must be bootstrapped. I must do it myself. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it all. I don't need any help." [00:15:40] Sometimes it's not even that sometimes it's, you just think things are really good because we hear that sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes like, "Oh, things are pretty good in the business," but you don't know what you don't know.  [00:15:51] Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And you think, "well, if things keep going the way that they are right now, that's okay. Like, maybe it's not my dream situation, but I'm also not really hating my day to day. And I'm not in this massive struggle." So I'm like, "things are okay. So do I actually need help? And do I need to reach out and work with someone?" And a lot of times, even if you think things are pretty good, and " maybe I don't need help." And you're right. You maybe don't need help. Perhaps you just need help to see what else is possible for you. [00:16:31] Jason: And they may not need help. They may not need it. If you're smart and you have big goals and you want to move forward quicker, then maybe you would want it, right? You would desire it instead of feel like this needy energy, like, "Oh, I need this." I think that's sometimes what limits us is we don't want to feel like we need something. [00:16:48] We don't want to admit we need something because it's a gross energy to be needy or to need something. It almost feels victimy to some people. I think when we have goals and we know what we want and we see that other people can help us, it becomes a little bit more natural for us to be able to do that. [00:17:03] Sarah: And I also think, this is another gripe I have with our lovely education system, is that in school, you are taught, "do it on your own." [00:17:13] "Don't look at other people's. Don't cheat. Don't ask your neighbor." If you're stuck, you pretty much ask the teacher. Refer back to your lesson and figure it out. When you're taking a test, you can't go "hey Joe, I don't know what number 13 is. You know what number 13 is?" You're not allowed to do that.  [00:17:32] Yeah, like getting help is wrong.  [00:17:33] It's wrong, right! So just have it memorized and regurgitate it. So take the information in, memorize it, and vomit it back up on a piece of paper, and then I will give you a passing grade. In the middle of a test, are you able to raise your hand and say, "Hey teacher, I had a question. I'm stuck on this. I don't really understand this. Can you please help me arrive to the answer?" No! No, you cannot! So in school, they teach us the self reliance. And I do believe that that is a very positive thing in one way. And in another way, it hinders our growth. Because in business, you should rely on other people so that you can get better results and go farther faster.  [00:18:17] Jason: So I think also what school teaches us, the way school is set up is there's this one guru expert at the front of the room that we have to listen to all the time. [00:18:27] And so we learn to be reliant on the leader for all the answers. And sometimes the leader doesn't have them, right? Sometimes they don't know. Sometimes they have blind spots. Everybody's been a student when they've called their teacher out on something that was off or wrong, right? Or seen that happen, and they lose that credibility. And teachers just usually don't tolerate that very well. They don't like being seen as having flawed thinking. Having a wrong idea or being wrong. And so there's this sort of authoritarianism that's like involved in schools. It's like, trust the authority, trust the leader, be this blind, dumb beast and let them lead you around. And that's like the Bible and book of revelations talks about the mark of the beast and the hand and the forehead. And maybe it's just your thoughts and your labor just being controlled by outside unearned authority. And people should earn. their authority, right? I work with coaches because they've earned authority, not because they just told me like somebody like put a gun to my head or forced me or I was in a school system and they said I had to do it this way. [00:19:30] So I think the irony of self struggle or DIY is that A lot of you are frustrated and thinking "I've got to do everything myself," but then you are probably because of that energy that you are being and creating in the universe and just how you show up with other people, you probably are really triggered and really frustrated with all the people that you encounter that think they could do a better job themselves. [00:20:00] Because you have the same energy or problem as them, and so they trigger you. So if you're running, you're butting your head all the time with these DIY people in the industry, people that are trying to self manage their properties or people that are trying to micromanage really self manage through you to get you to do the work, it may be because you're carrying this belief of self struggle or doing it yourself. [00:20:22] So just something to chew on. So another challenge that I think why people don't spend money on coaching or what they're prioritizing maybe over growth is there might be prioritizing safety or ease or comfort. And so what do you have to say about that?  [00:20:38] Sarah: So you have to get uncomfortable if you want results. [00:20:42] If you want results that are different than what you're currently getting, you can't take the same actions you're taking now and expect to get different results. I think, isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:20:57] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. It stresses people out and makes you start to go crazy a little bit. That's a pretty painful. Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Now, everybody, as we age, we tend to move towards more and more comfort. [00:21:14] I saw a video the other day. I think it was Gary Brecka, this health guy. He said that after the age of 30, most people will never do another sprint again in their life.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Well, I don't want to sprint. If I'm sprinting, y'all better follow me because...  [00:21:27] Jason: right. That's what people are saying. Like, they're like, "yeah, I don't want to. That's uncomfortable. I don't want to be cold. I don't want to be too hot." Comfort is he like described as is what leads us towards death ultimately. We want to be comfortable. We don't go work out at the gym. We don't build muscle, which affects our cognitive functioning later in life. It makes our bones more brittle. We then have a broken bone and like like we're hospitalized till we die right in our later years if we don't do the right things And so we're always seeking comfort and ease, and when we're always seeking comfort and ease, we shift the weight towards others. We Become, what I would kind of phrase as a victim or a blamer. We're a victim. We blame other people. We're complaining about our circumstances constantly, right? [00:22:17] And instead of doing work or taking action or doing the things that are uncomfortable. And I think there's this stoic phrase that from, I don't know, one of the cool guys that is involved in stoicism or whatever, but the idea is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:22:34] And a lot of people, I think could go, "that's true." I've seen some people make some easy choices, choices towards comfort, choices towards ease and their life's pretty difficult because they've avoided doing the hard, uncomfortable things, having the hard, uncomfortable conversations with people they should have, doing work, working hard to get the outcomes and a life of greater ease and comfort, right? [00:22:55] And so I think if you prioritize ease and comfort over growth, what's going to happen?  [00:23:00] Sarah: Not much.  [00:23:01] Jason: Well, you're not going to grow, right? Because growth isn't necessarily about ease and comfort, right? And so, even in nature, if we take a fruit tree or a bush that produces some sort of, fruit, whatever, if we cut that, tree and trim it, it will then yield a bigger result. [00:23:19] And sometimes if it's overgrown, it can't even produce fruit very effectively because it's too busy feeding everything else, all the branches leaves. So trimming it allows it to produce more fruit. And we're similar in that we need some friction and some intentional discomfort in our life and action in order to produce or bear fruit, in order to get the things that we want in life. [00:23:42] Having uncomfortable conversations creates greater peace in our relationships. Being willing to take action in our business allows us to have more freedom, more revenue financially, and to be able to take care of our team and ourselves better. And so we can't be a victim and a blamer and complain about the market and complain about COVID and whatever your stupid excuses are, whoever's listening. [00:24:04] If you've got all your excuses why you're not growing, you can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. So which one would you rather choose? Right? And there's a lot of people that would rather choose their excuses because it allows them to not do anything. It allows them, "well, the market's tough, so I just might as well not do anything." [00:24:23] Like right now, real estate agents, some are like, "oh, real estate market's tough. Can't get deals." Right? And then there's people that are still closing a bunch of deals and making plenty of money. And so our beliefs and our mindset and how we prioritize things shifts things. And so are you prioritizing ease and comfort? [00:24:40] Sometimes it's not even about our own ease and comfort. Well, maybe it is. Sometimes people won't join a coaching program because their spouse doesn't want to spend the money or their business partner doesn't want the business to grow. We see that like they're an operator personality type. [00:24:54] They're not really focused on growth and they're like, "no, we have good, stable, residual income. Like why rock the boat? And I'm getting 50 percent of the revenue," or whatever I've seen. And they're like, "why change anything? Don't disrupt my comfort here." And the other person's like, "let's have more doors. Let's go crazy. I'm a visionary." [00:25:12] And the operator personality type's like, "yeah, but that would make my life worse. I don't need more money. I'm comfortable. Don't mess up my comfort." [00:25:21] And sometimes the business visionary, or if it's with your spouse, we're not having that uncomfortable conversation with them because it means rocking the boat. [00:25:31] It's uncomfortable. It means there might be a fight. It means you might get screamed at or get some angry emotion thrown at you. In some scenarios. And so I think it's really important to connect with deep down. Like, what do we really want? And what really should we be doing that we just know is right for us and being willing to step into that discomfort. I made some very uncomfortable choices in my day in order to get to where I'm at now. And sometimes it involved me having to look stupid in front of a group in a mastermind. Sometimes it involved me having to have uncomfortable conversations in relationships or even to end relationships. [00:26:10] That's super uncomfortable. In order to move forward and do what I felt I was called to do or what I felt deep down. What I think is also interesting is more people are a lot more comfortable with those that are willing to do uncomfortable things and speak uncomfortable words. [00:26:29] It makes everybody feel safer because they can trust that person. You can't trust people that are always focused on ease and comfort. I don't think they're as trustworthy of people because part of life in order to have integrity, in order to be honest, in order to work hard, in order to benefit the people that you have a fiduciary duty or responsibility to benefit like clients, you have to be willing to do the uncomfortable things. [00:26:53] Otherwise, you're shifting all the discomfort on to everybody else. "Everybody else around me has to be uncomfortable so I can have comfort." And that does not create great relationships, safety, or create a good client or business relationship in the longterm. So that's my soapbox about that. All right. [00:27:09] So, another reason people don't prioritize that they don't prioritize a growth is they might be looking at the short term. Maybe it's related to comfort. Maybe it's related to just, "I need to make sure I have cash now and they're giving up the longterm, maybe more cash later, maybe a bigger business later." Any thoughts about that?  [00:27:28] Sarah: This was your thing.  [00:27:29] Jason: I've run into this where I've talked to people and they're like, "well, I don't know. I don't have a lot of money right now," I think this is where you need to be willing to take a risk and bet on yourself. [00:27:37] Find a system that's proven. We've got plenty of case studies and results to show that our stuff works. It's all proven. It all works. What I find is the only real question people need to figure out is, are they willing to work? Do they trust themselves? Are they willing to bet on themselves? And a lot of people don't. [00:27:53] A lot of times we've struggled to even do the little things that we've told ourselves that we were going to do. And so we're out of integrity and we don't trust ourselves anymore. Like, "I'm going to work out at the gym tomorrow. I'm tired." Right. We've all done that. I've done that this week. Right. I did work out this morning though. But we've done that. We've all done that. And so it's the making these little movements of taking action towards our own integrity. Like I'm going to do this. And then I do it learning to trust ourselves again. And the one person you can control is you. And so when you have strong trust in yourself. [00:28:28] Very few things are supremely risky because you're betting on yourself, especially if you're getting support to become better. And so, it may be a cash investment now, but if you can see there's a system and you can see there's results, then maybe the risk is worth it. You should get an ROI if you do the right actions, if it's a proven system. So I think those are some of the things. So why don't we look at the reverse real quick, and then we'll wrap up.  [00:28:54] The reverse would be what are our clients like? What's different about our clients? What do they prioritize that made them decide to work with us? What are they prioritizing differently that said " why would I not spend money on coaching? I should totally do this."  [00:29:08] Sarah: Yeah. Well first I think they believe in their ability to do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Hmm.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Because if you don't believe in yourself, there's nothing that you're going to be able to do. No coach can help you. You've got to figure that out first. So they believe in themselves and they are also committed. [00:29:27] And I think that is something that sometimes people are lacking. It's, they're just lacking a actual true commitment.  [00:29:37] Jason: So commitment, I feel like is, maybe it's a choice, but I feel like it's also an outcome of choices, right? So what are they choosing to prioritize? You think that maybe makes them more committed? [00:29:49] Sarah: You're so cryptic today. You're like, " what are they choosing?" Like...  [00:29:52] Jason: well, I don't know, this is an interesting question I think to chew on.  [00:29:55] Sarah: What makes people more committed?  [00:29:56] Jason: Why are some people committed and some people are not? We're talking about priorities today, so I'm thinking, what are the priorities that they have that leads to being strongly committed? [00:30:05] Sarah: It's either you're in it or you're out. It's like a pool. You're either in the pool or you're out of the pool. Yeah. That's it. You, like, you're either wet or you're dry. That's it. You can't like, "well, I've got a toe in the pool." Like it doesn't work. It doesn't work in business. [00:30:19] And if you're finding that, "well, like I have my foot in the pool a little bit, I'm going to pull it out if I have to pull it out," that business will forever be hard. You have to either go all the way in or go all the way out. Because if you're in the middle, it is difficult and it will remain difficult. [00:30:37] Jason: Yeah. It's really painful to be in between.  [00:30:40] Sarah: So either jump in the pool or jump out of the pool. Neither one is wrong.  [00:30:45] You might go, "I hate this pool. I don't like it." Great. Then find a different pool.  [00:30:50] Jason: So in chewing on this, I think in looking at myself when I'm fully committed to something, it's because I have prioritized the outcome. [00:31:00] The outcome is clear enough and important enough and motivating enough that I will do whatever it takes to get that outcome. That's when I'm fully committed to something. I'll do whatever it takes to get that outcome because I know what I want. That's one of the things is our clients know what they want. [00:31:17] Like they know that there's outcomes that they want. You mentioned, they believe in their ability to do it, to learn, to take action. And so they are a hundred percent committed. If you're committed to something and you don't know how to do it, you'll figure it out because you'll do whatever it takes. [00:31:34] You will struggle. You'll do go through trial and error. You'll fail. You'll make mistakes. And I think that's another thing is our clients believe in their own themselves enough to be willing to make mistakes. Whereas some people prioritize not looking bad or not making mistakes. And so they don't take the action. [00:31:51] They were like, "I need it all to be perfect and to know how to do everything before I do it because I don't want to be embarrassed or look stupid." And so I think some of our most successful clients are willing to just try stuff. They're just willing to do it. They don't have this need that they have to look so smart or whatever. [00:32:07] And sometimes those people struggle the most, right? Sometimes they are super smart, but they have to look good and look smart all the time. So I think in short, our clients prioritize growth, they prioritize learning, they prioritize taking risks, experimenting, and this is why they are able to move forward. [00:32:26] So hopefully this episode helps you reassess some of your own priorities. Like if you're not getting the results, make a list of what your priorities are and figure out like "what am I prioritizing currently that's leading to my current results?" Because if you can't see that, then you can't change it. [00:32:40] And as soon as you can see it and you shift your priorities, "well, I need to start prioritizing this." Maybe you need to start prioritizing action. Maybe you need to start prioritizing your health more. Maybe you need to start prioritizing learning more. Whatever it is, in order to get the outcomes that you want. [00:32:55] But if you're not getting the outcomes you want, your priorities are off. And hopefully this is an opportunity and an invitation for you to introspectively figure that out. And I hope that was beneficial.  [00:33:05] If you're struggling with any of this and you want some help getting clarity figuring out your priorities figuring out what you need to do in order to grow, you have a blind spot, you can't see it... like you need some external perspective, we all have problems we can't see. [00:33:20] And if you're not getting the results, you lack some knowledge. You lack some insight. And so reach out to us at DoorGrow. One of our growth consultants can help you figure this out, help you figure out where you might be stuck, what you need to get to the next level. [00:33:33] And you probably have some garbage or junk beliefs that are preventing you from being able to take things to the next level. And once those are out of the way, you're golden, right? So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:33:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:34:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.  

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.

As a property management entrepreneur, you know how stressful day-to-day work and life can get. Over the years, we've noticed that property managers often neglect their own health until they burn out… In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull chat about the importance of taking breaks and relaxing periodically as a property management business owner. You'll Learn [01:36] You're stressed out! Now what? [07:44] If you're burnt out, you aren't effective [15:32] Why you need to take a vacation ASAP [17:37] Take a break… or else Tweetables “Just because you're working more or working harder does not mean you're productive or you're effective.” “The thing that will give you more productivity is to stop and take a break.” “Cars have both the gas and the brake. You need to realize that in your business, there's a time for gas and there's a time for the brake.” “If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one. That's exactly when you need one. When you go, "I just don't think there's any chance that I could be taken away from the business. Like everything is on me and there's no possible way that I can do it." [00:00:15] That is exactly when you need to do it. [00:00:18] Do it. Book it. You have to. Otherwise this is your life forever.  [00:00:23] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:04] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:25] And now let's get into the show. All right. So today's topic Is what?  [00:01:30] Sarah: Relaxation.  [00:01:31] Jason: Relaxation. [00:01:33] Sarah: Yay. You know that thing that you guys never do?  [00:01:36] Jason: So, property management can be a little bit stressful. I've talked to thousands of property managers and this is a common theme. It can be a bit stressful. [00:01:44] And I can't tell you how many I've talked to that said they haven't taken a vacation in like years. They're not taking breaks. They're not taking time for themselves, like things like this. And so I think it's important to recognize that just because you're working more or working harder does not mean you're productive or you're effective. [00:02:05] And so it's important to make sure that you are taking breaks. So I think I shared on an episode recently at a client that I was coaching. And we had him do a time study, which is one of our tools we use to help clients figure out stuff. And he realized it was taking him like an hour to do things after three o'clock that took him 10 minutes to do in the morning. [00:02:26] And so that's a clue to take. a break that we need to take breaks. Yesterday I was working on some tasks and I was getting a lot of stuff done, but then I eventually hit a wall where I was trying to work on something and it just like, was really hard. Like it was just felt really difficult for my brain to work on it at that moment. [00:02:43] And I realized, "Oh, it's like in the afternoon I haven't eaten lunch yet and I probably should take a break." And so rather than forcing it and pushing forward, which I used to do in the past and do less productive work. I went and took a break. So, all right, what else should we say about taking breaks?  [00:03:01] Sarah: All right. So I know that it seems like the opposite thing that you should do when you're very busy And you've got a lot on your plate and you've got 10, 000 tasks to handle and you just have to push through and keep going and get it all done. And that if you stop, it will get harder because then you'll fall behind and then you'll have more to do and then it'll take longer and then you'll be going until midnight or later. [00:03:26] And. It's really crazy, but it is backwards because if you are just pushing through and you're trying to just get it done and dig your heels in and keep going, even when you're tired, even when your body is telling you like, "Hey, I'm tired and I need a break." Then you're still able to keep going, but you're just not efficient and you're being less productive. [00:03:50] So the thing that would give you more productivity is not to just push through and say, "I'm just going to keep going until I get it all done." The thing that will give you more productivity is to stop and take a break. I know it sounds wild, but it's true. So you need to figure out what can you do in that moment to then get some space, remove yourself from the situation and actually get into a state where your brain and your body can start to relax. [00:04:19] Jason: Sometimes breaks are not enough. A quick break's just not enough. You're right. So especially if you've been in burnout for a while.  [00:04:25] Yeah.  [00:04:26] Sarah: We've been working really hard. I talked about this on the scale call last week. There are seasons in your business where you will be because maybe you are bringing on a whole bunch of new units. Maybe you're hiring a new person. Maybe you're implementing a new system or changing softwares or working with a new coach. And there are definitely times for that. But you also have to realize that there are times for breaks and rest and relaxation. [00:04:52] Cars have both the gas and the brake. You need to realize that in your business, there's a time for gas and there's a time for the brake. So you must have both.  [00:05:04] Jason: Yeah. So we've been working really hard lately and I think we're both getting to a place of burnout. We were outfitting an an Airbnb that we're going to use for some client events and stuff as well. [00:05:14] And we've just been working on the business. We're onboarding new sales people in the company too. And it's just, it's a lot, right. And so we just a week's vacation basically. We did a cool training. If you missed it last week, it was really cool. So we did do some work but we took a break and I think it was well needed, especially after that marathon move that we did moving all that furniture into that rental. [00:05:38] Sarah: So I was pretty burned out physically, and I was nearing burnout. I was just, my stress level was through the roof. I was telling Jason, "I am on the verge of a breakdown, could happen like any little thing" and little things, little stupid things that I would normally not care about as much were setting me off like big explosions over a little stupid things. [00:06:03] Jason: Every married guy can resonate. We know when you women get like that.  [00:06:07] Sarah: Well men get like that too, though, in a different way, I think sometimes when the little things that they're an annoyance, they're a slight frustration, but it's not the end of the world. But when your body reacts to that little stupid frustration as if it is the end of the world, that's a really good cue like you need a break. So we took one. And we pushed ourselves probably to the limit and just about every capacity as business owners often do, we're like "go, hurry up, get it all done, make it happen. So we set up we set up an Airbnb in 26 hours. Everything. We cleaned it and we had no furniture. [00:06:48] We moved everything in, we assembled it, we decorated it. We got decor, silverware, dishes. There's five beds in there.  [00:06:55] Jason: Five beds.  [00:06:56] Sarah: And everything. And not just like beds...  [00:06:58] Jason: purple mattresses and stuff ready.  [00:07:00] Sarah: Yeah. It's ready to be rented out right now. And we did all of that.  [00:07:04] Jason: And it's two story.  [00:07:05] Sarah: In 26 hours. [00:07:06] Jason: All the rooms, all the bedrooms are upstairs except one. It was a good time. Hudson, my son, and I were the heavy lifters.  [00:07:12] Sarah: Yes. I wasn't going to break a nail. These are like, it's 75 to get a new set! I'm not... you do that. So we did all of this. And then we actually had this trip booked for a while. [00:07:24] It was booked last year. But the timing just worked out really well. Yeah. So we got done Sunday evening. late Sunday evening. And then Monday morning we flew out to a property, very rural in Arkansas, in Bentonville, Arkansas. It's actually Decatur, but there's like three properties in the city of Decatur, I think. [00:07:44] And then that week, it wasn't that we didn't work at all because we did, but I only worked for maybe a few hours a day and it was selective work and it was focused work. So instead of doing everything that I would normally have done, I had to then prioritize. And say, okay, "if I have two hours to do everything because I'm only going to work for two hours today or three hours today, then what are the things that I must get done today in that time?" [00:08:15] And those were the things that I focused on and anything that wasn't that I either didn't do it or I delegated it to the team. Because the thing that we also don't realize is sometimes things can wait and that's okay. We're in this era now of everything is instant. It's, "I want it right now. I want this now. I want an answer now. I want to talk to somebody now. I want Amazon right now. Like, I want everything instantly." And that has trained us to instantly respond to everything and then to be in this mindset where, "Oh, somebody needs me and then I must drop everything. I must handle it right now." It is okay to wait. [00:08:55] Jason: It's okay to say no. It's okay to say, "Hey, no, I'm not doing that today, or that's going to be done next week." Depending on the situation, you don't always have to be reactive. you should be in control in your business, right? Where you're not reacting to everything. So.  [00:09:10] Sarah: So I'll share what I shared on that Scale call is I challenged everybody to give themselves Megan Cuthin talks about this. [00:09:18] And so if Megan ever sees this. Megan, we love you. So Megan is our friend. She's out in Nashville, Tennessee. She's great. And she coaches on operations. And one of the things that she had talked about is she was noticing that every so often she would just get exhausted and then she was no longer effective. [00:09:35] And she was just like, she had no more gusto to her. She didn't want to do things. And that's because she was hitting a burnout cycle. So she was realizing her burnout cycle was happening pretty often, like every other week. And then what she needed to do when she was like that is just take a break. [00:09:53] So what she started doing is just building these little like mini breaks in. So what she does is she just chooses a day. And she blocks that day out so that she doesn't do anything that day. She has no calls. She has no appointments. She doesn't wake up at a certain time. She just treats it like a vacation day when she's at home. So she'll wake up whenever her body feels like waking up. If she wants to just read a book or watch TV or go take a nap or meditate or take a walk or go bowling or do whatever that day she does that. And then when she feels pretty well rested. relaxed and pretty well rested. [00:10:35] Usually what happens then when we start to feel that way is then our brain starts going "Oh, I should take care of that. And Oh, what if I did that? And Oh..." and we start to get pulled back in to the idea of work and then work seems now exciting again versus, "Oh, I have to do that, but I really just don't want to do it." [00:10:55] There's a big difference between going, "Oh, you know what? I could probably just do that. Oh, you know what? I had this great idea. We should do that." Then you feel excited and energized about it. That's your cue now to go back to work. And it might happen. It might take a day. It might take a few days if you're, especially if you haven't done this in a while, it might take a few days. [00:11:12] It only might take a few hours. So you might be on like this burnout day for like three hours and that's it. So that's it. My challenge to everybody on the scale call last week was to schedule yourself a day like this, where you don't do all of the things that you would normally do and allow yourself that time to relax. [00:11:31] And then my other challenge was to do this regularly. Also, don't just do it once and be like, "Oh, I'm good now." You're not, you have to continuously do this thing. And we had a client actually Josh, he closes his office every single week now on Friday early. And he's His whole team goes home early. [00:11:48] Can you imagine that? So they have about like a four and a half day work week now instead of a five day. And the whole team gets everything done. They appreciate having that extra time in that extra afternoon. And instead of going "Oh, well I like, I can't not work on Friday afternoon because then all of this stuff won't get done." [00:12:08] They get it done. So they're getting the same amount of work done, but in a shorter amount of time because they're properly motivated and they get extra time now to relax. So essentially they're getting a longer weekend. So I would challenge you to do the same thing, pick a day. And if you're like, "there is no chance I could do that right now!" That's fine. [00:12:27] Do three weeks from now. Pick a day and close your office early. The nice thing is you don't actually have to do it. You just have to tell your brain that you're going to do it. So say, "I'm going to close at one o'clock today." And then what you'll subconsciously do is start filtering all of the work and all of the things that must get done. [00:12:43] In that time frame, because you're going to close at 1 o'clock, and you'll get them done, and then, even if you don't close at 1 o'clock, you don't have to, but you just tell yourself that you will, if you then don't close at 1 o'clock, and you say, well, now I have an extra 4 hours in my day, what can you do with those extra 4 hours that your brain wasn't actually planning on having? [00:13:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:03] Sarah: So you can trick your brain, but you really, you have to do a little bit extra to like trick your brain. Because if you go, "Oh yeah, but I'm not actually closing at one o'clock. I'm going to be here until five anyway." Then your brain will give you until five o'clock to get all of your crap done. [00:13:16] But if you're like, "I am closing at one o'clock, I am stopping at one o'clock and that's it." No exceptions. Then all of a sudden you work in the capacity that you have, you get all of your stuff done, and now you have some extra time in your day. And you might then decide to reinvest that time back into the business and go, "Oh, you know what? I think I'll go take a quick lunch. Maybe I'll go take a quick break. Maybe I'll take an hour break. Maybe I'll take a two hour lunch." I don't know. And then if you want to come back, you can always come back. It's your business. You can do whatever you want, but you have to actually trick your brain into, hey, "I need to get everything done by one o'clock or 12 o'clock or two o'clock or whatever time, pick a time, close early and get everything done by then." [00:13:55] And then all of a sudden, you will be a lot more efficient that way. And you'll prioritize the things that need to be done because a lot of the things that you're doing, They don't actually need to be done.  [00:14:06] Jason: So this concept is Parkinson's law, right? Is the idea that the more time you get for something, the more time it's going to take. [00:14:14] And so things will just always fill up whatever container you make available. Related to that, because work expands to fill the time that's available for its completion, things become harder. The more time you allow. And so sometimes by collapsing the amount of time available and having deadlines or having requirements. [00:14:36] And this is one of, I think the brilliant pieces of our planning system, DoorGrow OS, by collapsing the time allotted in order to achieve something, people actually like work more efficiently and it's less hard to accomplish and they get more innovative And they start like looking for all these other alternatives and options and whatever and they do what's most effective. [00:14:58] And so we've seen this with team members like they might spend way too much time on something if we just say this is when we need it's like we need this by next week and They we could give them a month And they would take an entire month and spend a ton of time and more time doing it. And that doesn't mean it's more effective or that we're getting a better result necessarily. [00:15:17] So, same thing for you. Like set a cutoff. I'm done with work at this time. I'm going to take a break at this time. I'm going to take a vacation at this time. And then you will find that things become more and more effective. So Parkinson's law. Cool.  [00:15:32] Sarah: If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one. [00:15:36] Yeah. That's exactly when you need one. When you go, "I just don't think there's any chance that I could be taken away from the business. Like I can't take away from my team or I am the team. I don't even have a team yet. Like everything is on me and there's no possible way that I can do it." [00:15:52] That is exactly when you need to do it. So just do it.  [00:15:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:56] Sarah: Do it. Book it. You have to. Otherwise this is your life forever. This is what you want. Do you want to be stuck? Doing all of this stuff every day, all day, burned out, exhausted, tired, miserable? No, so you have to get out of that. And sometimes to get out of that, we have to physically remove ourself from the situation because I know you guys out there, you'll go, "Oh yeah, I'll take a break." [00:16:20] And then you'll bring your cell phone with you and you'll be doing stuff anyway. Actually take a break and remove yourself.  [00:16:28] Jason: So at one of our DoorGrow Live events, we have brought in an expert trainer that trains pro athletes for the San Antonio Spurs and some other pro teams that are around Texas. [00:16:41] And she talked about how is part of their training mechanism and what she coaches on and supports them in recovery is a big part of that piece. It's a big piece of all of that. And if you don't have recovery, then you're going to have more injury. You're not going to perform as well. And so she talked about how the recovery piece is usually this most neglected piece because they're super driven. [00:17:05] And a lot of entrepreneurs, you're high D in a DISC assessment. Like you're very driven. You want to like get things done. You're motivated, but you may not be giving yourself the recovery you need to be effective. [00:17:16] During the recovery stage, it's built during those early morning hours where you're sleeping. That's where muscle's built. You do the work and break the muscle and tear the muscle and whatever doing the workouts, but it's built during recovery. And so if you're not giving yourself what you need and setting aside the recovery time, you will inevitably burn out. [00:17:35] So you have to find that balance. So.  [00:17:36] Sarah: And You need to take a break before your body does it for you.  [00:17:40] Jason: Right.  [00:17:41] Sarah: Because that's the other thing, if you've ever noticed that when you're just tired and you're exhausted and you're stressed and you're like, that's usually when all of a sudden you straighten your back or you twist your ankle or you get this weird cold or bronchitis or whatever. [00:17:57] It's because you're not listening to your body. Your body is giving you clues and telling you what it needs. "Hey, I need to eat Hey, I need to sleep. Hey, like I'm not relaxed. There's way too much cortisol in here. What are we doing?" And if we just keep pushing through it will break down And something will happen either a sickness or an illness or an injury And then you have to take a break because it will force you to take a break. [00:18:24] But then the problem with that guys is then we're not taking a break that's fun. We're taking a break because we're sick and injured.  [00:18:31] Jason: Yeah. So we don't get to really enjoy it. Yeah.  [00:18:34] Sarah: So you're not enjoying it now. You're going, "Oh, I feel like crap." Of course you do. So you should choose to take a break before your body chooses it for you.  [00:18:43] Jason: So I think, one of the things I'm noticing is it's really important for entrepreneurs to become attuned to their nervous system. They need to be familiar with how they're feeling and just check in with themselves. And for entrepreneurs, we usually operate at a high stress level and not all stress is bad necessarily, right? [00:18:59] The stress of working out actually gives you more runway and gives you more time, productive time. But we need to make sure that we're paying attention to our nervous system because we'll get preloaded and then we'll get like really like heightened and really anxious. And then to the point where we're exploding at that team members and like freaking out and like we're really heightened and we might then some entrepreneurs will get to the point where they're having panic attacks and they're not sleeping at night and they're having. [00:19:25] Heart palpitations, right? And so we need to make sure we are honoring the body and our body will give us clues, nervous system. So go take a walk, take a breather, take a vacation, take a break, but start listening to your nervous system. What's it telling you right now that you need right now? Maybe you need to take care of your body. [00:19:41] So, all right. Anything else?  [00:19:43] Sarah: I think if you need to take a break, then take a break and you can take a mini break. You can do that. So just get up and walk around the office. Even if you pace around the office. We have a couple of clients who do that. Like Yair every, I think it's four o'clock every day, he plays the Rocky theme in his office. And then he does like pushups and like burpees and like jumping jacks and lunges and stuff. Now you don't necessarily have to do all of that, but Schedule it throughout the day, put it right on your calendar, and then every so often get up and go walk around, even if it's just walking around your office. [00:20:23] Rest your eyes, close your eyes for a few minutes, look away from your screen. Don't take a break from your screen by looking at your cell phone. That's another screen. That's not a break. Then your eyes are strained all day long. So actually look at something that's not a screen, rest your eyes or close your eyes or do some eye squeezes. [00:20:40] You can meditate, you can listen to some music, you can start to read a book. And even if it's only for a few minutes throughout the day, that few minutes is going to help rejuvenate your body. So then you're not just feeling like you're constantly drained. And when you need a longer break, take a longer break, even though it might seem impossible. [00:21:02] That's exactly when you need to do it.  [00:21:04] Jason: Okay, cool. So there's a cool app that I used for a while called Rise Sleep and it shows your circadian rhythm and there's usually a big spike in the morning where you ramp up and then it dips down in the afternoon and then you get a littler spike in the in the evening and where you get a another boost. [00:21:24] But that lull in the afternoon, that dip can be pretty severe if we're not taking care of our health. And you can be really fatigued. And so that's a great time to maybe go for a walk or take a break or do something to wake yourself up or go do a workout or something like that. So, all right, well, hopefully this was a helpful and effective for you to honor your nervous system. [00:21:44] Get some breaks in. towards burnout. We know that if you're not burning yourself out, you're going to be a lot more productive, a lot more effective, and we can help you grow your business a lot faster. And if you'd like to learn how to get your business growing faster, how to lower your stress levels and make the business a calm workplace, and get more effective and efficient team members, get better systems in place, this is what we do at DoorGrow. We're able to help grow companies dramatically, and we would love to help and support you. So reach out to us and talk to our team and let's get you going. So until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:22:17] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:22:44] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Property management business owner, do you have an assistant? We've talked before about how important it is to build a team around you and get support as an entrepreneur. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull discuss why property management entrepreneurs need to hire an assistant for themselves. You'll Learn [01:14] The Most Important Hire in Your PM Business [02:41] How to Get a Really Good Assistant [04:57] Two Types of Team Members [06:42] When Should I Get an Assistant? [08:17] Benefits of Having an Assistant Tweetables “I think the very first person that somebody should hire. is an assistant.” “If you continue to build the team around the business, you will end up more and more miserable instead of helping yourself more and more, which actually makes you a lot more money.” “Nobody's good at being two or three different types of people.” “I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves. [00:00:07] That always just drives me crazy because it's so obvious that there's a problem there.  [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers, love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. [00:00:40] Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull. And let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:13] So today we're going to be talking about assistants, right? [00:01:16] Sarah: Yes. Why don't you have help yet? Okay.  [00:01:20] Jason: So one of the challenges that we've noticed with our clients and with other property managers is that a lot of times they don't have an assistant for themselves. And so they'll have some team members even, but they won't have an assistant that supports them. [00:01:36] And I think this is a common trap entrepreneurs fall into. I think the very first person that somebody should hire. is an assistant. You start getting yourself some help instead of just helping the business. And if you continue to build the team around the business, you will end up more and more miserable instead of helping yourself more and more, which actually makes you a lot more money. [00:01:58] That's like everything in a nutshell.  [00:02:00] Sarah: There you go. We're done. There we go. We can wrap up. Have a great day. So get an assistant.  [00:02:03] Jason: Goodbye. Alright.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Madi will edit this one and she'll be like, "oh wow, that was so fast."  [00:02:07] Jason: "Wow, that was the shortest one ever." Kidding! So let's talk about this. I have an assistant. [00:02:12] Giselle's sort of your assistant. I think. Somewhat. Operationally? No, you don't think so? Okay. All right.  [00:02:18] Sarah: She's really good at really anything because she asks people on the team and she's like, "Hey, is there anything you need help with this week?" She always usually messages me at the beginning of the week and she says, "Hey, is there like anything I should be aware of or any special projects that you need me to work on this week?" [00:02:34] And sometimes I can't think of anything until later. And then I go, "Oh, you can help me with this." And she's like, "great. I'm on it." [00:02:41] Jason: So how do we get people really good assistants? Well, we have them do one of our DoorGrow time studies to figure out which things are energetically their plus signs and which things are their minus signs. [00:02:51] And then we build out a job description, but it needs to be one personality type, not two or three different personalities that like that human being doesn't really exist.  [00:03:01] Sarah: And if they do, they're hard.  [00:03:03] Jason: There's people that can do everything.  [00:03:04] Sarah: They have like multiple personalities in one.  [00:03:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:08] Sarah: Let's think about it if we want to hire them. [00:03:09] Jason: No, we don't. We don't want that person. We want somebody that's good. At being one person, right? Like in, because nobody's good at being two or three different types of people. Right. You're not going to have somebody that's like, "man, I'm the salesiest person ever and super salesy. And Oh yeah, I'm a really brilliant detail oriented operator." [00:03:27] Like it's just, for example, so we need to get you your ultimate assistant. We also then like to figure out your personality, figure out who you are. So when we get into our DoorGrow hiring, and if you need help with hiring, reach out to DoorGrow, we have a really great hiring system called DoorGrow hiring, and it's going to cost you a lot less money than working with a placement agency where they charge thousands of dollars and you'll probably get better results. [00:03:48] Not probably. You'll get better results typically because their job is just to get somebody into your office and get paid. But we assess people, we make sure they're the right personality fit. We help you make sure you have the right culture fit and the right skill fit, which I've talked about many times, the three fits. [00:04:06] So, I've had lots of assistants over the years. Lots. I've had some really amazing ones. I've had some okay ones. I haven't really had, well, I guess I've had a few like bad ones as well, right? So I've had lots and lots of assistants. And what I usually look for in hiring an assistant is I need somebody that I can trust their judgment and their intelligence to do things so that I don't have to do it. Right. And so my assistant Mar, she's better at several things than I would be. She has more patience. She's willing to like get frustrated at people if need be to like get things handled, whatever it takes.  [00:04:46] I think it's really important. A lot of people think, "well, I'll go get a VA and I'll go get some low dollar, low wage, cheap sort of worker in Mexico or the Philippines, and that'll be my first assistant." [00:04:57] So there's two types of people you're going to hire in your business. Some are people as process. People as process are basically like people you hired that function like a robot. Just do what I tell you to do. Don't get cute. Don't be clever. Just follow the checklist. [00:05:10] That's not a great assistant. It's not really a good assistant to have because you're going to have to do all the thinking for them and then give them tasks and you, then you're gonna have to show them exactly how to do every task and that's going to be really frustrating for you. That's not the ideal assistant. [00:05:25] So then there are people that are thinkers or decision makers that you can trust to make decisions without you and to make judgments. And so that's the type of assistant that you want. You want somebody that is intelligent. Intelligence is the big differentiator here. And you can tell when you're talking with people, are they bright? [00:05:46] Are they quick? Would you trust them to do things over you on the things that you're going to give them to do because they're better at those things? So you want to hire people that are intelligent, not people that just can follow tasks That's not going to be a really good assistant for you. Now later on if you do have some low level work or tasks in the business that you just want to offload, you can hire some people as process we have people on our team that are people as process. [00:06:11] They follow things. They do the same sort of work each time. They're not really involved in making a lot of decisions in the business. They don't come to our weekly meetings. They don't come to our monthly meeting, planning meetings, stuff like this. They're just doing their work and they're valuable and we appreciate them. [00:06:28] However, if you need somebody close to you, that's going to help you double your capacity and help you get accomplished a lot more, they need to be next level. They need to be higher level from that. So anything you would add to that?  [00:06:41] Sarah: I would say, let's talk about: when should I get an assistant? [00:06:46] Jason: Okay. When do you think they should get an assistant.  [00:06:48] Sarah: Like now? Now. Usually somewhere and it's different depending on your capacity, typically, it's somewhere in between the 50 and 100 door mark. It may be a little bit sooner depending on your market and is this your full time thing? Are you trying to run eight different businesses at once? [00:07:07] Like, what is your focus like? Really how much time are you spending in the business and willing to spend in the business? All of that will be factors in when this happens, but typically it's somewhere between the 50 and 100 doormark, which is why if you're in the DoorGrow mastermind, then the belt level requirements in order to reach the orange belt, which is your hundred doormark, you need to hire an assistant. It's one of the things on there and most people skip this step and they'll hire other positions in the business. They just don't hire an assistant. And I ran my business, that was the only person I had was an assistant and she was boots on the ground. And then that way, all of the stuff I didn't want to do, I didn't have to do because I had somebody else who could just take it off my plate and do it for me. So it was great. Without her, man, I don't know how I would have been able to do it. I would have had to work probably double or more. And I would have had multiple other positions in the company going at the same time. It just would have been really hard to do everything, especially the way that I did it without somebody there boots on the ground. [00:08:17] Jason: Yeah. So for me having an assistant has like been hugely beneficial so that I can free up my time like it's completely gotten me out of email. I don't look at my email. Do you email me? I probably won't see it, but I'll be told about it.  [00:08:33] Sarah: We closed on a property and he didn't see any of the stuff. Yeah, we were at the closing table and he's like, "hey, I got questions on this." [00:08:40] I'm like, yeah, that's all in your email. He's like, "oh, I don't look at my email." [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah. So, yeah, I don't like dealing with email, right? It's not like my favorite thing in the world. So I was able to offload email. I don't have to like worry too much about my schedule. I just show up and live and do what my calendar tells me to do. [00:08:57] So, having an assistant has just made things a lot easier so I can focus on higher level tasks and working on the stuff that I more enjoy doing and my assistant enjoys doing all those things. Those are things that drain me and my assistant loves it Like she messaged me last night saying how much she loves her job and how much she loves doing all this stuff for me And i'm like, "that's great because I would hate doing it." I just don't want to do a lot of those things that she does. So when to get an assistant? I think most property managers, yeah, certainly once you get up to 50, 60 doors, you're probably feeling a little bit overwhelmed as in that solopreneur sand trap, that's a great spot to get your first team member. They could be a part time assistant, but get somebody that can take some load off your plate. [00:09:40] Maybe you can graduate them the full time as you add more doors, but it's going to double your capacity. Getting a really good assistant can double your capacity overnight, especially if they're taking off your minus signs because you'll have so much more energy, so much more mental capacity, so much less decision fatigue. [00:09:57] You'll be able to get more juice out of the second half of your day if you can get those things offloaded. And so we've got some great resources for how to leverage an assistant that we can support you in at DoorGrow and how to know what an assistant should be doing, which is unique to you. And yeah, and how to make that relationship really effective. [00:10:17] So, so reach out to us and check us out at DoorGrow.Com if you're curious about any of that, and if you don't yet have an assistant, what I think's really wild to me is I've seen business owners that have hundreds of doors, hundreds. And they have an entire team and they're stressed out and they're frustrated. [00:10:34] And this happens a lot, especially in the two to 400 door range, they'll just be burnt out and they wonder why they can't get to the next level. They keep stopping their growth and adding doors and then focusing on trying to get their systems and processes dialed in and they don't have an assistant and they wonder why things are so stressful for them. [00:10:51] And it's cause they're not taking care of themselves. They're not taking care of the most important person in the business. The one person that should have the most support, they're not allowing that person to get support, and it's you, the business owner, like make sure you have an assistant. I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves. [00:11:12] That always just drives me crazy because it's so obvious that there's a problem there. And when I'm talking with them, they're like burnout, they're frustrated, they're hating their business, and, "oh yeah, my operator has an assistant or this person has an assistant or my property manager has an assistant property manager, but the business owner has no direct support." [00:11:32] I'm like, "'well, everybody in my team supports me,' but you didn't build the team around you. You built the team around the business." And so they're just burning themselves out. So this is your invitation. If you're listening and you don't have an assistant right now, and you have any other team members, this is your invitation, or maybe you don't have any team members yet. This is your invitation to go get yourself an assistant. I'm giving you permission that you can go get yourself an assistant. Not that you need it, but you deserve it. Like go get yourself an assistant. You can definitely afford it because if you were able to take half of your time off your plate of the crappy stuff you don't want to be doing, you could easily make a lot more money. [00:12:11] You can spend a lot more time doing revenue generating activities and growing the business. It's almost never an excuse that you financially can't afford an assistant. Because it just means you just have to spend the time doing the stuff that makes money, and you know how to make money and if you don't for some reason know how to add doors or know how to close more deals or know how to make money, we can help you do that dramatically and very quickly reach out to us at DoorGrow. So anything else we should say?  [00:12:37] Sarah: I don't think so  [00:12:38] Jason: Okay, so what's the core message?  [00:12:41] Sarah: Go get an assistant. Do it.  [00:12:43] Jason: All right. Do it now. That's it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth Bye everyone. Oh and get your tickets to DoorGrow live. [00:12:51] This is gonna be an awesome event So go get those you can go to DoorGrowlive. Com. Be there. It's going to be be cool [00:12:56] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:23] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas. We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation. What we addressed in this conversation: How Naully got interested and started with AI The ethical and legal considerations of AI How AI enables us to work smarter not harder Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end) How Naully sees the future of AI and work and much more... --- Ep 187 whole episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T. engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology. So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations. Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va? Naully: I'm fine, and you? Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we? Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful. Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that. But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st. And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age? Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet. So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI. And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now. Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it? I Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right? Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So, Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go. And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now. In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing. So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business? Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never. Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have. And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow. For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R. Sarah: mm-hmm . Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair. Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools. Sarah: It Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools. Or this is the user, [00:13:00] Sarah: right? Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer, Sarah: right? Naully: So, Sarah: so the Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction. And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what? Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework. In the use of AI, Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not. In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still. Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm. So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well, Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world. It's the world of justice. Sarah: I think Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal. So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI. But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle. And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder? Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because. Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that. AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months. And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it. And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas. Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you. And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell. Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together? But Naully: tell us more Sarah: about it. Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly. And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project. So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say. Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted. Sarah: So, Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted. Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2. For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI. So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way. So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information. Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right? To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now. So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development? Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology. [00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year. Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path. It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides. Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app. So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings. Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it. And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast. So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that. Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang. Sarah: Mm. Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two. Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia. Sarah: Right. Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so. Sarah: A little mix. A little mix. Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy. Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So, Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans. Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there. Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm. Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different, Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working. Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane. In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So, Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't. Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not. So, yeah, Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27. Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas. We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation. What we addressed in this conversation: How Naully got interested and started with AI The ethical and legal considerations of AI How AI enables us to work smarter not harder Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end) How Naully sees the future of AI and work and much more... --- Ep 187 whole episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T. engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology. So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations. Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va? Naully: I'm fine, and you? Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we? Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful. Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that. But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st. And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age? Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet. So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI. And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now. Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it? I Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right? Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So, Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go. And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now. In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing. So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business? Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never. Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have. And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow. For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R. Sarah: mm-hmm . Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair. Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools. Sarah: It Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools. Or this is the user, [00:13:00] Sarah: right? Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer, Sarah: right? Naully: So, Sarah: so the Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction. And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what? Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework. In the use of AI, Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not. In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still. Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm. So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well, Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world. It's the world of justice. Sarah: I think Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal. So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI. But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle. And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder? Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because. Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that. AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months. And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it. And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas. Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you. And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell. Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together? But Naully: tell us more Sarah: about it. Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly. And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project. So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say. Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted. Sarah: So, Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted. Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2. For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI. So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way. So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information. Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right? To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now. So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development? Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology. [00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year. Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path. It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides. Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app. So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings. Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it. And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast. So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that. Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang. Sarah: Mm. Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two. Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia. Sarah: Right. Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so. Sarah: A little mix. A little mix. Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy. Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So, Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans. Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there. Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm. Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different, Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working. Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane. In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So, Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't. Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not. So, yeah, Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27. Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas. We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation. What we addressed in this conversation: How Naully got interested and started with AI The ethical and legal considerations of AI How AI enables us to work smarter not harder Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end) How Naully sees the future of AI and work and much more... --- Ep 187 whole episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T. engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology. So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations. Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va? Naully: I'm fine, and you? Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we? Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful. Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that. But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st. And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age? Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet. So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI. And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now. Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it? I Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right? Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So, Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go. And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now. In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing. So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business? Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never. Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have. And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow. For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R. Sarah: mm-hmm . Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair. Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools. Sarah: It Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools. Or this is the user, [00:13:00] Sarah: right? Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer, Sarah: right? Naully: So, Sarah: so the Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction. And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what? Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework. In the use of AI, Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not. In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still. Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm. So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well, Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world. It's the world of justice. Sarah: I think Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal. So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI. But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle. And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder? Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because. Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that. AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months. And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it. And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas. Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you. And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell. Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together? But Naully: tell us more Sarah: about it. Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly. And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project. So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say. Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted. Sarah: So, Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted. Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2. For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI. So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way. So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information. Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right? To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now. So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development? Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology. [00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year. Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path. It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides. Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app. So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings. Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it. And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast. So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that. Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang. Sarah: Mm. Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two. Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia. Sarah: Right. Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so. Sarah: A little mix. A little mix. Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy. Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So, Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans. Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there. Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm. Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different, Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working. Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane. In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So, Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't. Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not. So, yeah, Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27. Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

We're talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren't the case, people wouldn't be joining them. Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We'll discuss all of that, in this episode. https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cultSarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization's rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings:Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah, Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.How are, how's the weather in your area? Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah. Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here. Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are. There we are. Yeah. Cliff notes.Katherine: Yes. I remember watching the vow. I don't remember. I think it was in during COVID watching it and [00:07:00] had just left an abusive church. And that was cult cults like they're definitely very high control, very lot of, you know, stuff being hidden by religiosity and God speak and Jesus talk. And I, I, a lot of us.who had left were like, have you seen The Vow? Have you guys been watching The Vow? Are you watching The Vow? Because The Vow is like very, very, very similar to what we just went through. And I think that that was the thing that stood out to me as well as how engaging it was. And it just I was like, that sounds like Christianity, like so much of so much of the, the attraction and the way that like the evangelizing that was happening and the way that people were getting brought into this thing that, that was presented as this very good thing.And in some ways it seemed like it actually was a good thing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that part of [00:08:00] it of like what attracted you to this. And like, what, what drew you in as a very professional human being? Sarah: Yeah. You know what? There's every single group that we've ever talked to anyone about in our podcast.There is always good stuff on the outside. And that's actually one of the first questions we ask people so that others can. See what some of those red flags are of like, you know, what's the catch with this perfect, shiny, amazing, happy community. Well, what, what drew me in was a number of things. And, and partly it was, you know, the age that I was.Where I was, you know, doing this acting work and it wasn't really filling my soul. It wasn't filling my cup in terms of like, this is not the meaningful work that I want to be doing. And the thought of. Cause really they offered a lot of things. The community was presented almost in a way that would appeal to whatever the person wants.And I later learned to do that for others. Like what, what is it that you're looking for? What I was looking for was a, [00:09:00] a community, a supportive, helpful community. I was looking for more meaning and purpose in my life being a, you know, Being in a Budweiser commercial wasn't like really that meaningful to me, even though it paid well, but it was like, this is not what I signed up for or what I wanted as an actor.And I've always been into personal development. I've always believed that. And I still believe actually that you can work on yourself or be, you know, be better or like work through. And there was a term that they used. I don't think I was really using this term before was limiting beliefs. That there's beliefs that we have, and I actually do believe that we have still believe that we have limiting beliefs about ourselves.Like Katherine: something like, I can't do it. Like, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, even as an actor, like even thinking things, thinking something like, which was had at the time, like I always get nervous and auditions, there's some beliefs under that about myself that caused me to be nervous. [00:10:00] Which would limit me about, you know, without, with auditions, cause that's like a big part of being an actor.So I really love the idea of working through my limiting beliefs, being, the best version of myself and, and striving to follow this model. And one of the things that appealed to me, I mean, I didn't like it at the beginning, but I eventually did like it after my first five day training, which is my first foray into Nexium is they offered this growth path in the form of.Like a martial arts system with different levels and stripes and colors and I liked that. Like I, there was something about that that was measurable for me. If I do this, I'll go to the next level and that, that appealed to me because an actor, we don't have that either, like get the job or you don't, you don't really know why you do or you don't, and you could do all the right things, but not actually go to the next level.So I liked the concept of being able to. Complete a task, work on a skill, and, and evolve. It was certainty. With certainty. Yeah, it was [00:11:00] certainty in a very uncertain world. Needless to say, I mean, it was all bullshit, but if it was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great. Katherine: Yeah. And if it is, if it is something that like is actually delivering what it's promising, then it would be a really awesome. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so, so those were some of the good things that drew you in just to create some context for folks what were some of the, like, things that started alarms, that started going off that were like, Hmm, maybe this isn't what it, what it's promising.Sarah: I mean, Honestly, there were, there were red flags right from the beginning, but I didn't know what I was looking at. If I had done, if I, if somebody invited me to something now that was. And with the education I have, I wouldn't have even signed the paperwork, let alone attended because I would have known, Oh, I'm feeling pressured and they're using a scarcity mentality in order to, you know, [00:12:00] like this is the only one.And when, you know, when are you going to do this and when are you going to change your life? And any hesitation I had would be. Proof of how I was not ready to commit to my goals. Like it was a lot of manipulation tactics just getting me there. And then once I was there a lot of red flags in regards to what I now know as setting the stage for future abuse.Even as simple as they said, like, you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to feel like you're going to, you're going to doubt that maybe even this is the right place for you to be. That internal dialogue is an indication of what they call the disintegration. So you're either integrated on a concept or disintegrated and any internal questioning was just a sign that you needed to work on something.I know. So, if you agree to that, which I did. Because I'm, I'm assuming that these people who, I just never, I never projected bad intent because that's the thing is when you give yourself over to a higher power or a higher authority, [00:13:00] you're saying, you know, better than I do. And tell me, tell me what to do.Tell me how to be. And I was, I was like, okay, well, I pay just paid like 20. 2, 100 is 2, 500 Canadian to spend five days in a room and I want to work on my issues. I am saying, I trust you. You got to tell me what you see and if what they're saying is different than how I feel, that's a problem. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that's such a such an easy thing to happen and then it's presented as you're like to listen to someone else tell you and name you and tell you what you need to work on and listen to someone else outside of you is. Is held up as like a humble thing and like a character quality.Yes. And if you were to resist and ask questions or say, I don't feel comfortable with Sarah: this. And that's, Oh, then I'm also being defiant. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or selfish or, or you don't want to work on your issues or you don't really care Sarah: about this. Yeah. I mean, they said that you should be able to ask [00:14:00] questions and put your hand up, but it was very clear when people did ask questions, you know, how they felt about that.And also like it was, I learned very quickly that there were names for the feelings I was having that weren't good. So I was just suppress them. And I want also, I'm a good girl, I want to be a good girl, I want to get it right, I like the gold stars. Yeah. I like the validation. Katherine: Absolutely. And there was a very clear like type of person that fit and you like, learned to Sarah: fit.Yes. I learned to fit and I wanted to get the, I wanted to go up the levels and I wanted to get the next stripe. And I learned to override the feelings because the other thing they said is like, you're here to work on your shit. You're here to work on your stuff. So. Yeah. You know, don't leave. We're just talking about these things.If the sash around your neck, there was a sash systems for the martial arts ranks. If that bothers you, why can't you even talk about it in a room? Like we're just talking about it. So I should be able to talk about it. And so therefore don't leave. If I'm leaving, I'm just running away from my issues.so [00:15:00] many double binds. We call them massive double. Katherine: Yes, literally the phrase that popped into my head. Yes. Well, I, I want folks to be able to hear your whole story. And so I'll just plug your book, which is called scarred. Correct. Sarah: Yes, thank you. And I don't know if you ever do giveaways on your podcast, but we can do that too.Katherine: Let's do it. Why not? Yeah, I haven't done one of those in a long time. Let's do it. And then a little bit culty, and then also the vow on HBO, or not HBO on max. So those are places that folks can get more. About your story and actually get your get your full story and all the details about that.And so I want to step into talking about the impact of this. And if you want to talk about the impact like while you were in it and like what, what this coercive control manipulation was doing to you while you were in it. And then very specifically after after you left, like how was so I'm going to ask you to tell us a little [00:16:00] bit about how you experienced this, this trauma showing up for you and what, what did this experience do to you?And if you want to also share some examples of just similar patterns you've seen in folks that you have been interviewing on your podcast as well. Yeah, just paint us a picture of what happens after this experience. Sarah: After leaving? Yes. I mean, there was many different stages, I would say, like I've been out for six years and there was a lot of just grief, like I was, I had a massive PTSD reaction or potentially CPTSD just from the sort of ongoing abuse, but I, in many ways, I was like kind of the, one of the least Can I swear on this podcast?I was one of the least fucked with because, because I was a recruiter and I brought so many people in many ways, they kind of left me alone. I, I had, I was in Vancouver. I was running, I had been running my center. Which is sort of like a. You know, a separate, like, it's sort of like a franchise. Like I had my, I had [00:17:00] my center and I was using the tools and the parts of the program that were good and that I liked.And I, you know, brought people in that were going up the pipeline to the leadership. So they kind of left me alone, but I, so I didn't have the same amount of. 100 percent commitment. Like I'd never moved to Albany. I'd never moved and given up my whole life. And I always had my foot in reality. In other words, like my foot outside of the compound, it wasn't an actual compound, but some people gave up everything to be there, you know?And so that kept me in many ways, it protected me and gave me a soft place to land. There's a lot of people I could go to and that I always knew that we. Were you know, people thought that we were in a cult. I, I knew that. And I, and I thought that they just didn't understand. Mm-Hmm. , right. I just, I was like, oh, they don't get it.And for, for the first couple of weeks. And, you know, I was just going through those people and being like, okay, you were right. And I'm sorry. And I'm really kind of fucked up right [00:18:00] now. Shouting from the rooftop and like doing all the stuff that we did to get the media attention and things like that so there was like different stages of first I was on this yeah rampage of like I got to take this thing down and I felt like I was one of the There's a few of us that were at the forefront of that and I think in many ways It was the ones that of us that could whereas other people were so had been so head fucked and so gaslit and so manipulated that they were like, you know, literally in bed depressed Couldn't move or, or just had to shut down and like pretend it never happened and move cities and like not even deal with it, which people dealt with it in different ways.My dealing with it was because I've been so public and so such a vouching you know, zealot. I was like a fundamentalist personal growth junkie. Yeah. This is the way, this is the only way, red flag, to person to, you know, to grow and to reach enlightenment or whatever. Like. And so then on the other side, I had to be just as loud.So that was like one big stage, and I spent [00:19:00] like a long time just on the phone with people, trying to de enroll them, trying to explain like, yes, I was branded, and no, I didn't consent, and no, I didn't know it was Keith's initials, and like, trying to show them that it was bad. And for the people who are real diehards, there's some people who still don't think that was bad.Because they've, they've so committed their lives to this path. They're so bought in and to look now and go like, Oh, maybe this isn't good is just too hard for them. Like they're just, yeah, it's Katherine: just too much given to it and it's Sarah: just, yeah, it's easier to go. No, this was good. You know, Keith may have. I've heard them say you know, this is, maybe he's not conventional, but he always, he's a good person.Like they, they can't even fathom that maybe he's a bad person. So. That was one of the stages also was like just reallycoming to terms with like I lost so many of my of my good friends and I and I and I lost them [00:20:00] quickly. I lost them overnight. So that was a big part of it. Like leaving my community again because I had some community and friends outside of it. I think that was partly what saved me. I, you know, I hadn't burnt all my bridges, I'd burnt many bridges, for sure, but not all of them.Thankfully there were some friendships I never touched, I never tried to recruit, even though I did try to recruit many people. So I'd say all of, you know, that was a big stage. And then and then I got pregnant. I got pregnant with my second child a couple years after we got out as I was writing a book.And that was, I was, I was really working through and like having a big catharsis with that process. And having to also say no to, like, I was at that time I was going to do a Tedx talk and I was going to do a bunch of things. I was like, that's gonna be too stressful. And I want to like create a safe, loving incubator for my baby.And that kind of forced me to block out a lot of the stuff that I've been doing. There was like a sort of an ongoing campaign still to [00:21:00] expose and destroy and I mean, by say destroy, like, Make sure that nobody else was recruited into NXIVM and those things happen. Like NXIVM itself does no longer exist.There's no company. Are there people who still believe Keith is good? Yes. So I, that's part of the reason why I'm still talking because I want to get everybody out. . And then, and then, and then I'd say that like, I'm most, I think it's a lifelong healing journey, but there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that have really propelled me to another level of healing and yeah, having kids being kind of forced to stay present and not be in that war, that campaign pulled me to another stage.And then there's just lots of things I do for self care that I wasn't kind of, I wasn't allowed to do. It just wasn't a lot of time for it. Purpose probably. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And just like family time and being able to change my schedule and do things like You know, go to the farmer's markets on the [00:22:00] weekend and the old days when in the cult days that like there was never a free weekend, there was never every weekend if there was a free weekend where there wasn't a training and be like, Who should we fly out from the mothership to like, do a coach summit or, you know, oh, there's nothing happening.Let's organize a, you know, nationwide or citywide barbecue and like, it'll be a great enrollment opportunity. Like every weekend there was something going on with the You know, with my center and you know, three nights a week as well, Monday and Wednesday. And anyways, it was like always just go, go, go, go, go.So to be able to get my, you know, reclaim my time and, and like clear my schedule, which I think anyone is in any kind of group doesn't realize until they get out of something and they clear their schedule. They're like, wow, there's so much time devoted to this thing. Right. Katherine: Absolutely. And then probably like a reward for that time commitment is always more and always more and always pushing and, and, and to some extent that's just like wired into our our society.So when we get into a group that's like that, that just [00:23:00] feels so, so normal. It's like, that's just what you do in this group. I remember being in the, the abusive church and like. It was going through a lot and a lot of people were leaving and there would be these like events that we would have every year.And there were a few times where we were like looking around and we're like, we've lost staff. We are exhausted. Can we just not do this event? Can we just Not do this this year, because we're so tired and the leadership was like, it was always like, you know, PR move like no we have to pretend like everything is fine and you have to present like a united front to the, to the, you know, congregation and like having to like, you know, just kind of power through these events, and there wasn't this like posture of like what's best.For you and care. I mean, like want to like intentionally care for this community. That idea of like, no, we know what's best for you and we know what's best. And this is what what's best looks like and always moving and always pushing. [00:24:00] And yeah, just that, that's that environment that I think so many people can relate with, even like a work culture, you know, like, just like.Work cultures can be like that too. And I think it's safe for us to say, well, then that's an unhealthy work culture. We're allowed to say that, like, we don't have to just say, this is just normal. This is just the way it is. Like, no, we can say that's toxic. Like that's not a, not a helpful environment. Did you have any else thing else you wanted to say just about Impact on you, the CPTSD, PTSD, like how is that showing up for you? Sarah: Yeah, I mean, again, different stages. There was a time at the beginning where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost a ton of weight. I was just like, I was, Nippy called it sniper mode.We were just so hypervigilant. Yeah. I didn't know if we were being, you know, like, you know, spied on, if they were coming to get us. We just, yeah, we were a mess. That didn't last too, too long in the scheme of things, but I'm still a little [00:25:00] jumpy. Yeah. Like if, you know, it's so funny. I just said that my husband just made a loud nose in the kitchen and I was like, what was that?Like, you know, I've been broken into. So, you know, things like that. My trust in humanity is definitely restored. Like, it's amazing how, when we stepped away from that. That world, all these incredible people sort of showed up and you'd think maybe I wouldn't trust them right away. But I was like, I, I felt the difference to like a good versus, I wouldn't say bad person, but like, you know, I just, some, some angels showed up and kind of swooped us up and took really good care of us, especially the people that made the vow.Like that was a really wonderful experience and that impact of doing the vow. You know, that could have, that could have gone so many different ways. Like that could have, that could have been a shit show for us. And it wasn't. And like you said, you're, you and your friends were listening and watching going, have you seen the vow?I can tell you, I still get messages from people in all different groups and relationships, mostly things like different [00:26:00] religious offshoots or like particularly closed communities or like the Jehovah's witnesses, a ton of Mormons message, the Mormons especially were like, Oh my goodness, we were in lockdown watching tiger King.And then we were watching the vow and they're like, Holy shit, we're, you know, in a really not good situation. So that, that continues to be very rewarding for me. And, you know, I think that if had there not been so many silver linings from this experience. You know, I don't know if I would have like recovered like I, it was, it was such a, I didn't mention this before the betrayal, the betrayal wound is one of my, one of the things in my, my therapist, I call it therapist Dan Shaw helped me with and who's a, who's a narcissist expert really helped me see is that when you're people that you trust betray you on that level, it can be a wound that is, takes a while to heal.And these were like. People I considered family who knew what Keith was up to and they were lying to us. And that's something that I never, you know, [00:27:00] and I always say we underestimated people's capacity to lie. We just totally took things at face value. Oh, Keith is celibate. Oh, okay, cool. He doesn't need sex.Great. What are all these women around him? Oh, that's part of his team. Like, okay. mean, it's so obvious and I feel probably like I was very naive. Now, but, Katherine: and, yeah, I'm a trusting person, go into relationships thinking, oh, they're lying to me. Yeah. Most Sarah: people don't. Yeah. But I do, what I do know now, and I see in almost every group, there's some term for it, which is basically like in a group like ours and every, every group we've looked at, there's this sort of.Belief that it's okay to lie for the greater good, and it's okay to lie to protect the leader. Or, you know, for, there's some other greater reason it's okay to say, you know, no, we're not doing X, Y, and Z if it means to, to print like. The big picture. It's okay. The ends justify the means. Katherine: Yeah, that ends justify the mean things.Means [00:28:00] thing. You said that people came in like as you were leaving and kind of supported you and you said it felt different. Can you describe what that different feeling was? I mean, there was just no manipulation. Like I remember once having a conversation with, it wasn't even my therapist, just somebody who's a, who was a family friend who was a therapist. And I had shared briefly sort of what had happened and his first response was, wow, that sounds like.Sarah: That sounds really horrible. It sounds really hard. Mm-Hmm. And, and then I was like, whoa. Because in nex Im, if I shared, shared something that bad that had happened, the an the question would be, you know, well, how did you cause that? Mm-Hmm. , and you know, what, you know, or, or, or, how did you author that? Or, what's your responsibility in it?Mm-Hmm. . Or what's missing in you that you felt like you needed to create that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all that kind of bullshit was, really upsetting. Katherine: It sounds like they believed Sarah: [00:29:00] you. Yeah, they believed me. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And also, I had a lot of moments like that where I was like, whoa.That other way was actually really bad. And I had no idea how toxic it was until I was No longer dealt with that way. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And in the church world, it's called the, the, the reverse of that is like, well, what's your responsibility or, you know, why don't you give, or you're being bitter or you're angry or whatever.And then, and then they'll call that accountability and character development and, and it's framed as this like good thing. When it's just. Invalidation and bypassing. Sarah: Yeah, I definitely see that in almost every religion is that people are shamed into like to not express a concern because then they're then they're complaining or they're stinking thinking or it's negative or whatever.So they learn to not say it so there's no there's no place to bring forward a concern. And that's a that's a really that's a [00:30:00] really, you know, great protective mechanism for somebody who's a. Cult a hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, or somebody who's just being a, you know wants to abuse power or do bad things if there's no place for the people around them to, to question it or say, you know, is this good or is this bad?Then that's, that makes the, the clo we call it the closed loop system, right? Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And all of the accountability is like outward towards everyone else, but then that like, yeah. Leader or leadership doesn't, it doesn't, they don't play by the same rules, Sarah: like, right. Well, that, and that was something also that I saw as a consistent thing is that all of the dogma and, and, you know, there's like a lot of great truth to taking responsibility for things that happen in your life and that's, it can be a good thing, but if it's always.It's always your fault. And the other person didn't have any responsibility. Then, and that's, that's something I say all the time. Wait, especially in XM. There's no victims and you create everything in your life. Now, Keith is in jail. And he's the [00:31:00] victim. Like he's the victim of the like, Oh, the FBI plan. Oh, the FBI must have planted evidence.Oh, but, but Keith, how did you cause this? How did you get yourself into jail? Like, where is that? Where is it now? Where is it now? You know, and that, that's, that's such a huge inconsistency and inconsistencies are something that if you, you know, you bring up then you're. Not trusting the process or in the yoga communities, like you have resistance.What's with your resistance? Katherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Like the inconsistency thing in the as a, as a red flag is, is something that's It seems to happen a lot. And these groups, there's a, there's a double standard where there's between two different people or it's between the leadership and everyone else or whatever.That double standard inconsistency is definitely something that pops up I would love to hear from you just a little bit about. Recovery has been like, [00:32:00] and what are things that have helped you? Sarah: Again, different stages. I think the biggest part of my recovery at first was just talking about it and being with other X members and being able to speak freely without the shackles of the language constraints to be able to say, Oh, Oh, remember that time when so and so did this.That was a really mean thing to do. We never could have talked that way because that would have been. You know, breaking rank and, you know, all sorts of rules, broken images, expressing that way. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was. I couldn't go up line in my, in the authoritarian, you know, thing because they didn't get in trouble.And if I went down, that's bad leadership. So I was kind of like, you know, hogtied. I could talk to my husband, which is, I think, kind of a rare situation. And most people in my situation, we just couldn't talk to anybody. And also Mark Vicente, who was the person who brought me in. If you've seen The Vow, he's the director that.That brought me in, but also got me out. So speaking about it, and then you know, Reclaiming my time educating [00:33:00] myself. I did a lot of watching of other documentaries and podcasts and movies and all sorts of things that really helped me connect the dots. And I have notes from my early days of watching movies like going clear and Scientology or holy hell about Buddhafield and just seeing.Like, holy shit. This is the, it's, it's the exact same. Like really even in our podcast, every time we interview someone, it's like the, it's the exact same template. Yeah. I mean, some of the content, yeah, some of the content points. It always the same school and learned. We did the same school, even like with holy hell, the leaders doing this, forced ballet classes and with us it was volleyball.But it's the same kind of like obsession with this one thing. Physical, yeah. Just yes. And like, you got to get this thing right, but the performance and the adulation of the leader and all that stuff. So that was really helpful. And then there's a lot of things that I've done, I guess. So therapy wise at different stages, having an actual cult therapist was really helpful for me.And I saved a lot of time there because not only did he understand the dynamics, but he actually already knew [00:34:00] Nexium, which was great. So if I said, well, Nancy did this to me once, or Keith said this to me or whatever, he knew what I was talking about. Having a psychologist that didn't have cult training was laborious, but also really helpful because I would have to explain things that, that I realized, like, as, as explaining it, I was out of deprogramming myself.You know, in one particular moment I was saying to him, Oh, well, in our, in our belief system, we. Believed that needs were like survival based, you know, air, shelter, water, whatever. And anything else was considered a desire and therefore a non integrated fixation. You need to work on like, why did you think you needed this thing to be okay?Love, connection, community, blah, blah, blah. So then he, I remember, cause he didn't know anything about cults and he was like, well, those are needs to survive. But what about needs to thrive? And I was like, Oh, they didn't want us to thrive. And I always thought that the people in Albany who live there look fricking miserable.And I was like, [00:35:00] that's why they were miserable. They weren't allowed to have a career or relationship because then they were, they were shamed into like, that that was just a deficiency based desire. In other words, there's something wrong with you that you're even searching. Like, why do you even need that from the outside world to be complete?So that was you know, an interesting process to have a you know, a cult. A therapist and then a regular therapist, but I think a lot of my therapy came from just talking and educating myself and talking to other survivors. And then there's a whole series of things that I've done and continue to do.Like I'm, I do yoga, but I do like a not culty yoga. Like there's no dogma. There's no education. There's no leader. There's no, it's just more of like a fitness thing. Because that's how I protect myself, like I don't do kundalini or, yeah, like that. I walk a lot, you know, after this podcast, I will walk and, and like, clear my mind.Some like sort of spiritual, somebody, some might say woo woo practices that I do, but there's no It's not, it's not like a [00:36:00] tied to a certain school or program. It's just like a little practice here, a little practice there. I take my green juice. I'm very health oriented. I'm all about like getting good sleep and all the things that we weren't allowed.Like I remember when I started Nexium, I was They would say I have, I would have had an attachment to comfort because I was like, I'm getting my eight hours. And they're like, well, why do you think you need eight hours? And I'm like, well, that's just what, how I function best. And I'm like, why do you think that would if it's a limiting belief?And by the end of it, I was having like four or five hours of sleep a night to prove to them how much sleep I didn't need and how I could be like such a bad ass, you know, but really I do need, like I, I do best on as much sleep as I possibly can get. So prioritizing that and prioritizing what's right for me and not going with somebody else.Going on what somebody else says is right for me has been also huge. A lot of baths. I take Epsom salt baths for my CPTSD almost every night. Putting a lot of money on hot water. I'm sure. Katherine: Hey, it's very sensory and it like, yeah, it's you and [00:37:00] your body. It helps you be present. It's Sarah: yes. Yes. And you could cut this out if you want, but I also microdose psilocybin a fair bit, which also does, does all of those things keeps me, my body has to be present.I don't get, I'm not doing it to hallucinate or get high on mushrooms, but it just helps me not be anxious. Yes. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, those are my main, lots of variety. Yeah. Lots of variety. And oh, and hiking, I like love being in nature and that's like super important to me. I try to get out at least once a week.Katherine: What would you say this is something that like is I think just like a constant question that a lot of folks have and something that I'm, I'm kind of exploring as well is like the difference between having someone help you like a therapist and like that language versus a guru who was like telling you what to do and like, what does it feel like to have that difference.Or what does that difference feel like? [00:38:00] Sarah: Yeah, I'd say that that like a healthy therapist feels like they're on a journey with me and they're just, , questioning and , it's like they're going down in the cave with me. We're both shining lights and we're looking together. Whereas the, the guru approach or, you know, like an axiom, I always felt like there was literally like a.Such a power power difference. Like I'm sitting down here and they would be sitting up there like even the seats were raised and we're kind of looking up at and tell me what to do, like, what do you think and Reclaiming that has been definitely been a huge part of my healing.Katherine: Yeah, so the guru is more like the expert Mm hmm or life telling you how to do it Sarah: And I have to be so careful with that too, because I do love to give people unsolicited advice. You know, especially in our podcast. I do like to be Katherine: like, that's not a good thing. Don't do this. Sarah: And I'm like, you really need to be taking more baths.Okay. I'm just kidding. But I'm like, well, what, how do I try to phrase it now? I was like, this is what's worked [00:39:00] for me. This is what works for me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't care. Katherine: Yeah, no, I like the phraseology. I have to do the same thing. It's like, well, you know, I have that same situation and this is what I try.Yeah. Do with that what you'll exactly. Yeah. And then that would be as opposed to someone who is like, partnering with you in this journey and, and just like being empathetic to the experience rather than telling Yes. That they know better what you need than you do. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I love that.That's great. Any, any final things that you would like to share as we wrap up put all of your information in the show notes, but if you have any information that you want to give folks about how to interact with you, Sarah: I mean, I'd say like if they want to know the full story, my book in combination with the vow, I think is a really good balance because the vow has my story, but also massive gaps in some things that happen.But the vow [00:40:00] has a lot of other people's stories. And if you want to go down an axiom rabbit hole, there's tons of other memoirs out there. But I think that our podcast I've, I've been told is very therapeutic for people of all different groups, religions you know, even abuse situations because you're hearing the stories from different, different people's perspectives that.You're not maybe necessarily as attached to like defending or being protective of your group, whatever that is. So when you hear when other people's stories, you're like, Oh yeah, I relate to that. And it can be, well, it's free. It's free therapy. So not that it's not in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying like, don't do therapy, but it's gonna be a bonus.And I also say, like, there's some episodes that will resonate and some that won't. Just skip them. You don't have, you don't have to listen to all of them. If it's something that that, that is resonant for people, there's a, we're also on Patreon and we do a lot, we do another bonus episode every week.And that's more casual. And we answer questions from the audience. We do voicemails. And we also have a Goodreads account. I recommend a lot of books [00:41:00] and I interview a lot of authors. So all of the books that we love are on our little bit culty Goodreads account. And I think the best way if you want to just reach out to me personally is on my Instagram.I, I answer every message. A little bit culty is a little bit backlogged, but people can check us out there as well. And if they want to be a guest, a little bit culty, they can apply through our website. Oh, the one thing I would say also that's really cool, I think that I did recently is a TEDx talk.I don't know if you had a chance to see it or hear it. Yeah. It's 15 minutes of like the summary of why people need to educate themselves about cults. It's very, it's like a lot. It's like some people call it the best of a little bit culty in a very short period of time. So it's a lot of quick nuggets.Yeah. And I think, I think your community would like it. Katherine: That sounds good. I might reach out to you. I might reach out to you later about that because a couple of years ago I had talked to someone about doing a TEDx talk about spiritual abuse and they kind of discouraged me from [00:42:00] it because it's supposed to be inspirational and it didn't, they're like, Sarah: that's inspirational.Well TEDx actually has some kind of like a little bit quality rules. Like you can't talk about politics or religion. Okay. It's in, it's in their rule book. But. So talking about spiritual abuse, I don't know how you would frame it in a different way. You have to frame it in a different way. Yeah. Go ahead and talk about spiritual bypassing and just not mention religion.Ah, Katherine: yeah, that's true. True, true, true. Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. I'm excited to just see what, see what develops. Thank you for all the work Sarah: that you're doing. My absolute pleasure. It's, it's a total joy to talk about and I will continue to talk about it until everybody is out.So everyone. Yes. Free the slaves. Katherine: Free the slaves.

If you are a property management entrepreneur, you have likely been your own salesperson or BDM at some point. Eventually, every property management business owner will need to hire a salesperson and develop different growth engines. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their BDM Bootcamp event You'll Learn [01:52] What is a BDM? [03:00] Get your BDM Ready for BDM Bootcamp [08:42] You Need a Sales Pipeline! [14:26] Benefits of In-Person Events Tweetables “It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine, and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline.” “Your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one.” “If you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, you're just guessing, and you're just hoping.” “You need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:36] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show. All right. So today we're going to be talking about BDMs.  [00:01:24] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:01:26] Jason: In honor of this event that we have coming up, which is. Going to be super cool. I don't know that there's been anything like this. That's been as cool as this that's existed in the property management space, maybe ever. [00:01:39] There's a lot of people that talk about BDMs, but there's very few that are actually getting BDMs to get great results. And we're going to be hosting a BDM bootcamp. And so Before we go any further, every time I start talking about BDMs, as if everybody knows what it is. I just talked to a guy with, I think, 800 doors the other day. [00:02:00] He's like, "what's a BDM?" I was like, man, okay, I need to make sure I explained this. BDMs are business development managers. Sometimes they're called BDs, business developers and they're salespeople for property management. That's what people will call them, right? Business development can happen in any industry. [00:02:18] But the reason we use the phrase BDM in property management is because property management is closely connected to real estate. And whenever you mentioned sales, people get it confused with real estate brokerage sales type of stuff. And that's why. Now everybody knows what a BDM is, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. [00:02:37] Sarah: Okay.  [00:02:38] Jason: So anyone listening to the show, you better know what a BDM is from now on. That's it.  [00:02:43] Sarah: There's a quiz at the end.  [00:02:44] Jason: What is a BDM? Did you get it right? If not, go back and start this episode over.  [00:02:49] Sarah: Try again.  [00:02:51] Jason: Okay. All right. What do we talk...? Do you want to like tell them about the event? [00:02:56] What do we want to talk about?  [00:02:58] Sarah: Yes. Tell them about the event. So we are launching a BDM bootcamp. So there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs. And there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs and then spending a bunch of money to run ads and get leads and pay for leads and then have the BDM work the leads. [00:03:21] And then if you just want the BDM to close more deals, it's simple. All you have to do is spend more money and buy more leads. Which is really expensive and wildly ineffective. So we have strategies that BDMs use...  [00:03:35] Jason: that actually work  [00:03:37] Sarah: ...that are free, or at least very inexpensive. [00:03:40] You might have to pay for lunch. That's okay. You get something out of it too. And we've decided that we're going to launch a BDM, aka salesperson, boot camp. It's going to be a one day training. And we've never done anything like this before. For those of you that are current clients, there's some trainings on DoorGrow Academy. [00:04:01] We run every wednesday, our growth accelerator calls, but it's hard to amass all of this information that Jason and I have learned about sales over the last, what, 20 something years and put it in a course. Or talk about it on a one hour call. It's darn near impossible, right? So what we wanted to do is we wanted to take some of this information and spend one day going over all of it. [00:04:31] Now, this is very likely going to end up being a series because we can probably talk about sales and strategies and tactics and how to improve your scripts and what to say and like NLP language and filler words and all this good stuff, we can go over this for probably days on end. So what we're doing is this is very likely going to end up being a series, but we're going to launch the first one in April, so for those of you that are watching live, you all have a chance to get in on that for those of you that are watching this recording is will probably be released after the event, but don't fret because  [00:05:11] Jason: you may have missed it.  [00:05:12] Sarah: You might have missed it. Oh, man.  [00:05:15] Jason: Maybe you should get in our Facebook group and pay attention to the live streams. [00:05:19] So you don't miss stuff.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Sometimes we do some cool things that you need to know about right now.  [00:05:23] Jason: The Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub.Com apply. We reject 70 percent of the applicants, which is why the group is good.  [00:05:31] Sarah: Okay.  [00:05:32] Jason: Okay.  [00:05:32] Sarah: Anyway. So that was our shameless plug. All right. No, right. Go ahead. [00:05:36] If you've missed it. Yeah, we don't have a word from ourselves yet. That's a great idea. Who wants to sponsor this podcast? We'll plug you on every episode. Talk to me, baby. So anyway, if you've missed it. Sad for you, but don't fret because there's going to be more of these. This won't be a once and done thing. [00:05:55] So for those of you that are listening now and or hear the information before the event, then this is going to be for you. So here's the information. It will be Thursday, April 11th. So this is also open to anyone on your team who handles sales, meaning it might be you, it might be somebody else. You may have multiple people on the team who handle sales. So if you would like Jason and myself to train your salespeople for a day. This is a really great opportunity for you because that's exactly what we're doing. [00:06:33] So do you want to tell them a little bit about what we're talking about? Or do you want me to do that?  [00:06:38] Jason: I'll go ahead. So we've seen a lot of problems with businesses growing. And so if you, have a BDM or if you are the BDM, you're the business owner, you're the one that closes deals and you are not adding at least a hundred orders a year, hopefully through organic methods instead of wasting a bunch of money on advertising to get cold crappy leads, we're going to give you the strategies, we're going to focus on some different growth engines talking about those. We're going to get into specific pipeline stages because what I often identify is that it's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline, or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages. And not making progress and so we're going to help you identify where the leaks are if you've started building some of these growth engines, you may have started doing things like trying to do realtor referrals and it's not working very well. [00:07:39] You're not getting easily 10 doors a month from that. You might maybe you've heard of our neighbor strategy and you're not getting referrals from that. Maybe you've heard of some other of our strategies, it's not working. And if you haven't heard of these, then you might want to show up, but we're going to talk about the different stages. [00:07:55] We're going to talk about what maybe is affecting things at different stages. This will be very tailored to those that are in attendance. We want to help you move your business forward significantly. And sometimes there's very simple tweaks that could be done at each of these stages that opens the floodgates. [00:08:10] So you have a lot more flow through the pipeline, which means more deals and more money.  [00:08:15] Sarah: Yeah. So back up because you skipped to topic number two, which is cool. We can do two and then one and then three and then four, but that's fine.  [00:08:21] Jason: They're not numbered.  [00:08:22] Sarah: They're not, but they are in order on the document. [00:08:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:25] Sarah: Yeah. [00:08:25] Jason: So Sarah's an operator and everything has to be done a certain way. There is a right way for operators.  [00:08:32] Sarah: There's a right way to do literally every task on the planet.  [00:08:34] Jason: I'm talking to the business owners and they care most about what is interesting or different, but...  [00:08:42] Sarah: yes, and I understand, but your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one. [00:08:50] Jason: That's true.  [00:08:51] Sarah: Or you don't know the stages of a pipeline because a lot of times, and I bet this happens to you too, but it happens to me when I ask people, okay, "what does your sales process look like?" [00:09:00] " Oh, I talked to somebody." "Okay, great. And then what?" "Oh, and then I send them some information." "Great. And then what?" [00:09:05] Jason: "I wait." [00:09:06] Sarah: "Oh, then I wait." "Oh, okay. Like, do you call them again or do you check in or do you like set up another call?"  [00:09:13] Jason: "Or I follow up in a way that I look needy and creepy?"  [00:09:16] Sarah: Sometimes the answer is yes. And then sometimes the answer is no, but even if they do follow up or have another call or check in again, somehow, then my next question again is "okay, and then what?" And then they go, "oh, and then I just wait." So essentially what happens is you have no pipeline. Okay. And you don't know that you don't have a pipeline, but you don't have a pipeline. [00:09:35] And that means if you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, we're just guessing, and we're just hoping. We're going, "I don't know. I keep talking to all these people, but nothing seems to be closing. And I don't understand why," because you don't have pipeline stages. [00:09:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:09:49] Sarah: So you got to need a pipeline.  [00:09:51] Jason: So we'll teach you how to build out the pipeline. We'll talk about the different stages that need to exist. And then it'll be a lot more clear and we'll talk with you about how to build that out in your CRM of choice. So you'll understand the principles. [00:10:04] You can go apply this to whatever CRM you use, whether it's DoorGrow CRM or lead simple or whatever else is out there. Okay, I'll go to number three now that we're back in order. Okay. All right. Number three, [00:10:19] Uncovering your client's pain points. So superficially people think they know the pain of their target audience. So they want their property manager. They don't want to have to deal with managing the rental property. That is not the real pain that gets you to close deals that you have to go a lot deeper than that. [00:10:36] And so we're going to talk about how to disarm people, how to not come across as super salesy, how to create authentic communication and an authentic relationship where they believe that you can help them and how to get them to open up about what the real pain is, the real stress of the real emotion that might be motivating them to have a conversation with you. [00:11:00] And one of the biggest problems we see in sales is that a lot of people don't take time to identify what the real pain is. The pain often has not really anything to do with the rental property. It's something going on in their personal life. And so you need to figure out how to connect to that. [00:11:16] And for some that's like, "Whoa," that's like, "I don't know how to do that. That'd be weird or awkward," but you need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management, right? Just like if you're booking a trip to Hawaii. [00:11:34] Property management is the flight to Hawaii. It's not the paradise. It's not the outcome that they're hoping for. It is property management. So we want to sell the trip. We want to sell Hawaii, not the flight there, right? Which is property management. So we'll talk about also getting towards the, not just the pain, but the pleasure. [00:11:54] Those are the 2 ingredients you really need to know and uncover in order to close the deal. And so if you're not closing deals, it's probably because somebody else is better at that than you. You're one of your competitors, or they're just going to go with the cheapest company because you haven't really created a connection. [00:12:11] And so they think you're a commodity. You do everything everyone else does. And so that we'll get into that. All right. So good?  [00:12:18] Sarah: That was good.  [00:12:19] Jason: Number four, reviewing and improving your call scripts to book more appointments and close more deals. So we want to like, take a look at what are you saying? And you may think, "I don't have scripts. [00:12:30] I'm just awesome. I just wing it every time." I guarantee 90 percent of the time, you're saying similar things, dealing with objections in similar ways. And so you have a script. It just probably isn't a very clearly defined one, which means it's probably not a very good one because you haven't taken an objective look at it to optimize or improve it. [00:12:50] And so we're going to take a look at some scripts that are effective and figure out ways to improve your scripts. And sometimes it's not even about what you're saying. It's about how you say it. And so we're going to focus on some of the magic that comes with how you communicate with people. I've got clients that are not salespeople, like no real training in sales, terrible at sales. And they're crushing it because they know how to be authentic. They are communicating in a way that's disarming and they're just being helpful. And so we're going to talk about some of that stuff. How to close more deals. Some of you that are so good at sales, you're super salesy, you like cut your teeth as a baby in real estate and like you're a shark, like we're going to help you figure out how to undo a lot of that mess so that you can create more trust and sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. [00:13:44] And so we're going to help you close more business, which will make things a lot better. Okay.  [00:13:50] Sarah: That's what we've got. All right. That's our agenda. And if this sounds interesting to you, now, our hope is that once you come to this event, you'll obviously get a lot out of it and learn a lot about sales that we just typically can't cover on a one hour call. [00:14:07] It's just, it's too much. I can talk about 1 of those things for more than an hour. Right? Once you come to this event, you'll learn a lot and you'll be able to immediately implement these things so that very quickly, you will start seeing some changes and some positive results and momentum.  [00:14:24] Jason: So why do this in person? [00:14:26] So let me talk about that. One of the things we've noticed in DoorGrow's, I'm starting to call it the real bubble. And so there's this mentality, I think, unconsciously in our brain. So when we're doing stuff on zoom calls and zoom meetings, which we do a lot of cool stuff that way DoorGrow, but we've noticed that when we get people in person for the first time they meet Sarah and I and realize we're real human beings. [00:14:48] We're not just something on video and that we're real and they can like hug us. And like we touch right? Like then something shifts in their brain that everything else they're saying is real. When they start to meet clients that they've seen on some of the Zoom calls, sharing their wins and talking about crushing it and adding doors. [00:15:07] They're like, "Oh, these are real people." And then the brain shifts and they start to connect that, "Hey, if they're real, and this is real and they're getting real results and they're like me, I'm a human, like I can do this too." And all of this stuff is actually true, impossible. And so we've noticed a shift in clients once they come to DoorGrow live, which is coming up in May, or they come to one of our in person events. [00:15:32] And so we want to do this in person because there's something magical about in person that content and information is absorbed. A lot more easily. There's also that sort of kinesthetic aspect that we're there physically but the learning is a bit more experiential. We'll be able to maybe even role play, go over some scripts, talk, like, say things. [00:15:52] It's just a bit more real than just seeing something on video or watching a video replay or something like that. And so come pierce the real veil with DoorGrow and realize the real magic that exists.  [00:16:03] Sarah: All right. Yes. And at this point you guys might be wondering all right, so this sounds pretty good. [00:16:09] I think I might be interested. What do I do? Contact me. Don't contact anybody else on the team. They're not even going to know what you're talking about. Just contact me so you can get in touch with me. It's Sarah S-A-R-A-H. If you go to our website and you end up talking with somebody else on the team, they will point you in my direction and you can get registered that way. [00:16:29] Now, tickets for this will be 1k per person. You can have as many people on your team attend as you would like. So if you have 3 BDMs and you want to send all 3. If there's just one or two, maybe that you want to send or you want to come check it out yourself, go ahead. But you'll need to let me know now spots are going to be limited. I don't even have 20 spots. I actually need to go back and confirm how many I have left because I know we had some people interested. But the price for this will be 1k per person. And I know that the price will not stay. At that rate. [00:17:03] So we're launching it and we're doing something special with the price. So for now, take us our one case. So get in while the cost is low.  [00:17:12] Jason: There you go. All right. You will easily offset the cost of doing this. For most of you, that's like getting one more deal, right? So lifetime value for most of your clients, probably a lot higher, like maybe 10 times. [00:17:27] Maybe 20 times higher if you can keep them a while, right? So this is a no brainer. This is very easy and we can get your BDM adding a lot more doors. So just like some client results, we've got clients that are easily some BDM are adding 200- 300 doors a year organically without paying for any SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services like APM and they're able to grow and scale their business quickly through organic methods. [00:17:56] Sarah: And we have some clients that turn business away every single month because they just cannot.  [00:18:02] Jason: Get pickier and pickier.  [00:18:03] Sarah: Yeah, they're backlogged. And then they ask us on the calls what do I do? Like, "I don't want to say no, but then I can't take on this many." And we're like, "now you have a waiting list and you can take on X money per month." [00:18:14] And if they can't come on this month or they missed that deadline, then roll them over to the next month. If they qualify.  [00:18:20] Jason: Okay. All right. So that is BDM bootcamp. So check out BDM bootcamp, reach out to sarah@doorgrow.Com. Sarah with an H.  [00:18:28] Sarah: Yeah, if you spell my name wrong, I'm not talking to you cause I won't get it. [00:18:32] Jason: Okay. That's your punishment.  [00:18:34] Wow. Okay.  [00:18:35] Sarah: So don't forget my H because everyone does.  [00:18:38] Jason: Just email me. I'm nicer.  [00:18:40] Sarah: He never checks his email. Don't email him. That's true.  [00:18:42] Jason: My assistant does. Don't do it. All right.  [00:18:44] Sarah: You'll never hear back the black hole.  [00:18:46] Jason: No, my assistant's good. She'll take care of it. I just won't see it. [00:18:51] She'll tell me about it if it's important. All right. For those of you that are wanting to join a community, be part of something awesome, reach out to us. And so you can learn more about DoorGrow Mastermind. You get access to some of the coolest stuff and to be part of the coolest community of the most growth minded property management business owners in the industry. [00:19:11] And we can help you get your business to the next level. So whether it's scaling operations, whether it's figuring out how to grow, whether it's cleaning up the front end of your business, getting your website and your pricing, right, all this kind of stuff. So we can help you. All right. Check us out at doorgrow. com until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Bye for now. [00:19:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today, we will learn how Easter is celebrated in the United States and Australia. We will hear Tom and Sarah's conversation about their plans for Easter this year. And with a point-of-view story, you will learn grammar in context without memorizing boring rules. Hi! Thanks for joining me for another episode of the podcast. I'm Georgiana and my mission is to help you improve your fluency. If you want to support me, please share the podcast with your friends and family. It would mean a great deal to me. Thank you! Remember that you can get the text of this episode on my website SpeakEnglishPodcast.com Okay! Let's start! Tom, from the United States, and Sarah, from Australia, were catching up on a video call before the Easter holiday. As they started chatting, they quickly realized they had different traditions and plans for celebrating the holiday. Let's listen to their conversation: Tom: Hey, Sarah! Happy Easter! Sarah: Happy Easter to you too, Tom! I hope you're doing well. Tom: Yes, I'm doing great. So, what are your plans for Easter this year? Sarah: I plan to attend church and celebrate Easter with my family. We usually have a big Easter dinner and spend time together. Tom: That sounds lovely. I'm also planning to celebrate Easter with my family. We usually have an Easter egg hunt and decorate Easter eggs. Sarah: Oh, that's a great tradition. We also decorate Easter eggs but don't have an egg hunt. Tom: That's interesting. Every family has their own traditions. Sarah: Definitely. What other traditions do you have for Easter? Tom: We usually go to church and have a big Easter brunch. We also exchange Easter baskets filled with candy and small gifts. Sarah: That sounds like so much fun. We don't exchange Easter baskets but give each other Easter cards. Tom: That's sweet. Do you have any special Easter foods that you eat? Sarah: Yes, we usually have ham, deviled eggs, and hot cross buns. Tom: That sounds delicious. My family has roasted lamb, mashed potatoes, and asparagus. Sarah: That sounds amazing. It's interesting to see how different cultures celebrate the same holiday. Tom: Yes, I agree. Speaking of cultures, I heard Easter is celebrated differently in Australia. Can you tell me more about that? Sarah: Sure! In Australia, Easter is also a Christian holiday that celebrates the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, since it's celebrated in the fall season there, it's more of a harvest festival. We also have a lot of outdoor activities like camping and hiking. Tom: That's so cool. I didn't know Easter was celebrated as a harvest festival in Australia. Do you have any special Easter foods that you eat? Sarah: Yes, we have hot cross buns and chocolate eggs, just like in the US. But we also have meat pies, seafood, and others. Tom: That sounds amazing. I'll have to try them sometime. Sarah: Definitely. Maybe we can exchange some Easter foods and try each other's traditions. Tom: That's a great idea, Sarah! Sarah: Ok! I'll see you later. Happy Easter! Tom: Happy Easter!

In today's episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George's approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.

In today's episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George's approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.

In today's episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George's approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.

At this point in the year, it's still early enough to make some plans to level up your property management business. One of the best ways to learn new strategies is by masterminding with other professionals. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the importance of strategic time as a business owner as well as some upcoming events for property management entrepreneurs. You'll Learn [02:06] The concept of your default future [06:43] The four reasons for having a business [10:26] 2024 events for property managers [16:51] Why masterminding matters [19:44] The ultimate event for property management entrepreneurs Tweetables “If you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes.” “Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for.” “I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am, that means I'm in the wrong room.” “They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members  [00:00:13] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many real estate think you're crazy for doing it you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right. [00:01:11] So before this show, we were talking about what we should be talking about in today's episode. So what are we going to talk about today?  [00:01:18] Sarah: We will talk about getting ready for your 2024 and prepping, getting your schedule ready for some events that we've got coming up. [00:01:27] Jason: Okay. It is January 26. January 2nd. Sorry. I don't know why I said that January 2nd. What's wrong with you? I don't know. I don't know. I think I saw the clock. All right, so it's January 2nd The new year has just started. This episode will probably come out on the main podcast a little bit later, but we wanted to kick things off for the new year. [00:01:49] Make sure that everybody gets in momentum. I think 2024 is going to be a wild year. Every election year is. It's going to be interesting. So let's talk about your property management business, how you can get more of what you want and grow. So let's talk about some of the stuff coming up. All right. Where should we start? [00:02:06] Sarah: Let's first start about talking about what did your 2023 look like? Was it what you wanted it to look like? Was it maybe a little different where there's some curve balls that came at you in the middle of the year and threw the whole plan that you had off balance and if so, what are you going to do differently in 2024? [00:02:26] So if you change nothing, if you do nothing different, your 2024 will look probably pretty similar to your 2023 if not worse because the market is totally different, at least part of 2023. The market was good. The real estate market was pretty decent. It's not so decent right now. It's a little bit cooler. [00:02:45] In fact, we're really close to it flipping over to a buyer's market.  [00:02:49] Jason: Okay. And for those of you listening, I think you'll really enjoy this concept. This is one of my favorite closes when it comes to converting people into clients or customers. And we call it the default future versus created future close. So it's important to take a look at your default future is. What you're going to get in the next year, and you can easily base it on what you did the last year and the year before that, and the year before that, you should have a pretty good idea of what your default future looks like. And if you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes, right? They should be helping you improve your future. So for you selling to your clients, they should have a default future if they continue to DIY, do it themselves, manage their own property, work with the crappy property manager they've got now, whatever their current future is. [00:03:36] They should have a different created future if they're working with you and you need to help them see a different alternate future reality that includes you. So we run into people all the time that have had a very uncomfortable default future in property management. They have not grown for the last sometimes 10 years. [00:03:55] They've struggled. We have a client we just got on. He's been around 50 units for a decade. So that means it's a grind. That means there's a lot of churn, losing a lot of customers while you're adding customers and you're just not growing, right? Some of y'all are down in doors because I've heard the excuse of the pandemic or people, a bunch of my clients sold or whatever. [00:04:15] So a lot of you might be down in doors. And so your current future, default future looks even worse than last year or the year before, right? So we want to shift you towards a created future. Yeah, so how do we do that. Okay you do that with DoorGrow, right? So we are really good at helping create a different alternate reality for you a different future That includes us. [00:04:39] And because we've been able to coach and support so many, like hundreds of property management, business owners, we have tactics strategies that we've developed over time that we're always. Honing, improving, figuring out that have allowed us to increase our client's door count, make their operations smoother, improve their team, lower the entrepreneur's pressure and noise, decrease their stress, make the business more fun so they feel like they're more of a business owner. [00:05:07] And so these are the things that we do. At door girl. All right. And we've got a bunch of events that we do throughout the year that help to facilitate our vision in helping transform property management business owners and their businesses.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Now is a really good time to plan out "what do I want my year to look like this year? Do I want it to look like more of the same? Or do I want it to look different, but positively different" because it can still look different, just maybe worse. Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for. Yeah. So if you want your business and your life and your income and your team and your day to improve, then you may need to just be open to doing things a little bit differently than you have before. [00:05:52] And I think being that we're at the beginning of the year, this is a really good time to set some time aside for you. Set some time aside to make sure that you're prioritizing the things that you really want to get out of the business or out of your life. And how do we do that? There's a few events that we have coming up throughout the year. [00:06:12] You can find all of our events, all of the details on doorgrow.com/events. And that will show you our event calendar. What event, who it's for, what the cost is, where it's located, the dates, all of that kind of information is on there. And if you go all the way to the bottom, there's a quick little video I recorded with even more details. [00:06:34] So you can watch the whole thing. It's only a couple minutes long, or you can skip to the part that talks about the event you're interested in.  [00:06:41] Jason: Okay, cool. So for this new year, I would like to recap the four reasons, because I think. It's important to take a step back and assess your business through the lens of these four things. [00:06:55] We have a fifth reason, so maybe the five, but we want to take a look at your business through this lens and make sure you're actually headed in the right direction. Because it's very possible to be making more and more money in your business and become more and more miserable. And that's not the goal. [00:07:09] We didn't start businesses to become more miserable. We thought we started them to make more money, but what we really want is what more money can give us, right? We're hoping more money can give us more, number one, fulfillment. We get to spend more of our time doing the things we enjoy doing. More and more freedom. [00:07:24] We feel free. We don't feel trapped. We don't feel stuck. We don't feel like we're controlled. We don't feel like our business runs us. We don't feel like a slave or servant to our business. We feel free, right? Freedom. The third reason is Contribution. So if we have freedom and fulfillment, usually then we want to make a difference to others, right? [00:07:44] We want to benefit other people too. It's just innate I think in entrepreneurs, we want to change the world. We want to make it a better place. We want to improve things. We see problems and we're like, "I can make money solving that problem, right? That's contribution. That means making a difference to your family, to your team, to your clients, to everybody that you can have impact with and so contribution, I think, is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves. It feels really good to benefit others. And then the fourth reason is support. It's really difficult to have fulfillment, freedom, contribution if we don't have a team because then we end up doing and wearing all the hats that we don't want to wear and we should only be wearing the hats. Eventually, if we had the ultimate business, it gives us the ultimate level of fulfillment and freedom. Then we are only spending our time wearing the hats that we most enjoy wearing, which would mean we have a really good team that supports us and they enjoy wearing the hats that they're wearing and they take those off of our plates. [00:08:41] So we don't have to wear those hats. And so those are the four reasons. Now there is a fifth reason, and this is important to recognize. This is what your team members want more than the four reasons, typically. This is what your clients want often more than the four reasons... they want safety and certainty. [00:08:58] They want peace of mind. And so this is why a lot of people are willing to give up fulfillment, freedom, even contribution. They're willing to give those up and trade them in order to have safety and certainty. This is why they will go get a job. This is why they want to do what they're told to by maybe the media at times, right? [00:09:17] They want to be safe and entrepreneurs were a little bit, we're wired a little bit differently. We care more about having our freedom than safety and certainty, but we also want that too. And so having our business built out in a way that gives us all five of those things gives us the ultimate business and it allows us then to make a real impact and to have a really good team and to have less stress. [00:09:39] And so this is our primary goal with DoorGrow is to move you towards that. So take inventory. How do you feel you rate on each of these five areas right now? Do you feel you have safety and certainty? Do you feel like you have support and a really great team? You really feel supported in your business? [00:09:54] Do you feel like you've got freedom and fulfillment? You get to do the things that you really want to do. You're really enjoying your day today. You feel like you're making a difference out there and contributing in the best way. If you don't have those things, even though you have a bunch of money coming in or a lot of doors, you built the wrong business. [00:10:11] And it doesn't mean you need to change businesses or industries. It just means you need to change what your role is in that business. So 2024, let's move you towards more towards the four reasons. All right. So should we talk about some of the events we have coming up? Yeah, let's do it.  [00:10:26] Sarah: Let's talk about the events scheduled for 2024. [00:10:29] By the time this airs, it'll still be early in the year. So you should be able to mark your calendars for the things that sound interesting to you and make sure that you prioritize your business so that you are set up for success so that you are able to grow so that you are able to get more of the day to day stuff that you just don't enjoy the stuff that bogs you down off of your plate because this is not the life that you need to live, but it's really common for property managers, so make sure that you prioritize this stuff. [00:10:59] So let's talk about some of the events that we've got coming up this year. What's first? Okay. The first thing we have, this is for our clients only. It's in January this month now. And that is open to all of our current mastermind clients. We're going to San Diego, California. So these type of events if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind, you'll have access to them. [00:11:20] So what our tribe events are. They're usually smaller events. They're not huge with, like 100 people or more. They're smaller, more intimate events. So if you're a little bit more on the introverted side, then this event might be really good for you because you get to create close connections with people. [00:11:39] So Jason and I attend these events as well as some of our clients. So you'll get to network and spend some time with other property management business owners. And what we'll be doing, this event, we do a little bit of business and a little bit of fun. So we have some activities planned out there for the day and either before lunch or at lunch or probably both because that's what happened last time is we're going to be, talking shop, talking business, what's working, what's not working, what's your plan? [00:12:07] What are you working on? How can we help support you in that? So that's our first one.  [00:12:11] Jason: Okay, cool. Now we have some other things happening in January. [00:12:13] I'll just throw out there. If you're hearing this later and you miss this stuff, we might have recordings that you might be able to get access to if it's one of our public things. But make sure that you stay connected to us, follow us and are connected to us on social media or you're inside our Facebook group at doorgrowclub. com where we broadcast this and stream it live so that you don't miss out each week. January 11th in a week, we are going to do with our clients a jumpstart 2024 call on zoom where you can 10x your year. And we're going to talk about 10xing your growth in your property management business. [00:12:47] What's next? [00:12:48] Sarah: Okay. So the next event that's coming up will be open to everyone So if you're currently in our mastermind or not yet in our mastermind, or you were formerly in the mastermind, this will be open to everyone. We have our boardroom event that's coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in Round Rock, Texas, which is just north of Austin. [00:13:10] And that event, we actually launched a lot of these events for the first time last year in 2023. We've had some success with them. Clients really enjoy these style of events, so we carried them on into this year. So the boardroom event, it is a smaller event. We will probably limit it to about six clients, like six businesses total. [00:13:35] For that reason, because we really want to be able to go deep. If the event gets too big, then we have to stay granular and more topical and this event, we call it boardroom because we sit on each other's boards, it's a two day event. And what we'll do is we'll really get in and we'll like tinker with your business and see, where are you spending your time? [00:13:55] What does your team look like, what does your profit margin look like? What does your revenue look like? Where are you struggling? Where are you succeeding? So we really get in and we go deep with clients on the smaller style events. So spots will be limited. If you're interested in attending any of our events or getting more information, just go to doorgrow.com/events. [00:14:15] All of the information is there.  [00:14:17] Jason: Yeah. The last boardroom room event that we did was pretty awesome. So everybody walked away with a really solid set of clarity and to do items to take their business to the next level. And what was interesting is, a lot of them were really stuck and couldn't see where they needed to go next. [00:14:34] And so this allows us the opportunity to really go deep with the business owners. And so they get a lot of value from this.  [00:14:40] Sarah: So that one is coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in round rock, which is like North Austin here in Texas. That one is very focused on business. So we do break for lunch. [00:14:52] We do go for dinner. But it's boardroom style events. So we're in session almost all day. It goes from about nine to five  [00:14:59] Jason: is serious stuff. All right  [00:15:01] Sarah: Yes, cool. All right, then this one personally is my favorite is our premium mastermind events we also launched that last year for the first time and This one for me, it's just so fun because it mixes the two things that I love, which is business and travel. [00:15:16] I'm like all about both of these things. So if you're looking for an event that allows you to travel, do something fun, explore the area and really dive into your business in that same depth that we offer in the boardroom, then this event will be for you. So this we do reserve for our current and former mastermind clients only. [00:15:38] It's not open to everyone. But what we do is we get a luxury Airbnb or rental of some sort and we will rotate where they're held. This one that's coming up, it's April 9th and 10th. It will be in Bentonville, Arkansas. Very random spot, but the home is beautiful and it's huge. So we'll do some fun stuff in the area. [00:16:01] What we do, it's about a day and a half event. So we come in, we'll do a mastermind during the day, and then at night we spend some time just, hanging out at the property and getting to know each other and really connecting. It was really interesting because we did this last year in April, and then in May, we had our DoorGrowLive and the clients that attended our premium mastermind, oddly enough, they all also attended our DoorGrowLive, they were like their own little group of people because you just know each other so well, like you've spent time with each other. You really get to know each other's businesses and like business model and what are they doing and what are they all about? [00:16:39] So it was like so worth it for me. And it was amazing to see that at our DoorGrowLive. So if you are a current or former mastermind client, then. This might be a really great event for you.  [00:16:51] Jason: Yeah. These are super fun. It's more of a more personal, more of an intimate setting. [00:16:56] We're hanging out together in the same house. And so the conversations are just, they're just really great. And this allows you to create some relationships and friendships. They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members and our mastermind members are different. They're just different than the typical NARPM crowd or the typical crowd of people that are involved in property management. They like love what they get to do and they've shifted more towards the four reasons. They have a much healthier mindset because we've installed a lot of mindset things. This is why we want to bring mastermind clients to these, they're just a different crowd and being able to hang out with other people that are playing a similar game that have a similar mindset is just like next level. [00:17:45] And so the relationships that are created, I think will last a lifetime, which is really awesome.  [00:17:50] Sarah: And I think that's a really good point is there's a lot to be said about who's in your circle and, who you're spending time with. So if your circle is doing things that are either similar or if they're even a step ahead of you, that's fantastic. [00:18:06] You're in the right circle. So I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am that means I'm in the wrong room.  [00:18:12] Jason: I like being the smartest person in the room sometimes, but not all the time  [00:18:15] Sarah: No, it's like when we run the events, yeah. I'm talking about when we attend.  [00:18:19] Jason: Yeah, we invest a lot. [00:18:20] We invest a lot And we're a part of groups and have mentors that are like beyond where we're at here at DoorGrow. And being able to create that for clients and facilitate that, is really awesome. We love being able to experience that as well. So great leaders, I think are also great followers. [00:18:36] And I think that's why we're able to deliver so much to our clients is because we go join programs and events and do things like this, where we're the student, where we're learning, where we're connecting with people, where we're masterminding, we want to bring the same value to those that we serve. [00:18:49] So we've gotten really great benefits. We've done some really cool trips, different places, hang out with other entrepreneurs, and we always get a lot out of it. Even when I don't think I'm going to, I'm like "it might be fun." But then it like, sometimes it's changed my life. It's been really impactful. [00:19:04] All right.  [00:19:05] Sarah: Next, we've got our DoorGrow Live. Okay. And as an added kicker this year, if you are a current mastermind client in our super system tier you get your own special event. Yay, so we're tacking it on right before DoorGrowLive, that way it's not additional travel, it's not really like hard to do, it's just gonna mash in with DoorGrowLive, so it will be the day before DoorGrowLive, which is, I believe it's a Thursday, it's May 16th, this is for our current SuperSystem clients only, we will be diving into all things SuperSystem, all things operations at this event. [00:19:41] Jason: Okay. So now DoorGrowLive. The DoorGrowLive is our ultimate event. This is where we get everybody to go, clients, non clients. It's our biggest event of the year. This is fun, interesting. We've got speakers, there's lots of interaction. We've got a lot of fun stuff going on. So this is going to be at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas, which is the North Austin area. And it's a super cool resort has a huge indoor water park. It has a bunch of restaurants.  [00:20:11] Sarah: It is Friday and Saturday. It's May 17th and 18th. This is open to everyone. So whether you are a current, former, it doesn't matter. You are never in our mastermind, never a client at all. [00:20:21] Does not matter. It's open to everyone. This is our big event of the year. So we bring in a bunch of different property managers. We bring in some vendors, we bring in some speakers, like it's a two day event. And we're holding it in again, North Austin. So Round Rock, Texas. And the resort is really, it's really great. [00:20:43] It's very nice. The rooms are nice. They have plenty of restaurants to choose from. We did our DoorGrowLive last year there, and we liked it so much. We decided to go back.  [00:20:54] Jason: Yeah. Some venues treat you really well and some treat you really not well. And this one was really good. We really liked it. [00:21:00] Yeah, so make sure you get tickets to DoorGrow live. If you're wanting to just initially put your foot in the toe in the water to see what is it like around the DoorGrow culture? What is it like around DoorGrowers? What is it like around people that are involved in their ecosystem? This would be a great way to decide whether or not you should be spending a whole bunch of money with DoorGrow, right? [00:21:22] Is come hang out at DoorGrow live and see the magic that's going on and learn about the DoorGrow code, learn about people that are scaling up, talk to people that have their different lanyard colors with their different belt levels. Like we've got a whole program of ascension and, just like in martial arts, and so come check it out. [00:21:40] It really is a different thing. This is not your usual conference. Let's say it like that. This is like the ultimate conference We've decided like we want to make these the best that we can make them. So sometimes NARPM events are okay and sometimes NARPM events... maybe they're not. Some of them though, we like we've even had clients say well on some of them our event and NARPM event were right at the same time and they said "there's no way I would skip DoorGrowLive to go to a NARPM But what we've done is we've done everything that we could to make these conferences, the best conferences ever for property managers. [00:22:16] Sarah: There's a lot that goes into it like every little detail that we put into it, we really try to make sure that this is so beneficial and it's the big event of the year. It's open to everyone. So if you're thinking, "Hey I don't know what event I should go to," this would be a really good one to go to because it's so big and there's just so much that goes into it. [00:22:36] You'll get a lot out of it and it's not the boring conference that you're going to go and sit and fall asleep. And go, "Oh God, is it lunch yet. Can I go home now?" It's not like that at all. It's very exciting. There's a lot going on and we always provide really good opportunities to meet and talk with other people too. [00:22:55] So it's not just like you're in session all day long. There's a lot of opportunities to network with other property management business owners.  [00:23:02] Jason: Yeah we actively try to facilitate that because we know that that's one of the biggest benefits we've gotten from going to events. It's just the connections that we actively facilitate that. [00:23:11] I think what makes, the DoorGrowLive events stand out is that it's a bit more holistic. We're not just focused only on property management. We're focused on improving you and your life and focusing on entrepreneurship, focusing on taking things to the next level. So people get a lot out of it and it really can be life changing instead of just business changing.  [00:23:30] Sarah: So that's our big one. Now, if you like vacation style events, this one is a newer one. So we're testing this out this year. This is going to be our first one ever it's DoorGrow retreat. Yeah, so this will mix a little bit of business and lots of vacation style. [00:23:47] So this is open to your family to your kids to your spouse, whomever wants to join you and let it be like a business trip on a tax write off for sure So we will still do some business stuff and it's vacation style event, and that is going to be July 17th through 21st. And it will be in Punta de Mita in Mexico. [00:24:10] Yay. Super excited. So you will need a passport.  [00:24:12] Jason: Get those passports ready. Get them now. We're going to mexico. So yeah, and this is gonna be a nice resort.  [00:24:19] Sarah: Oh, it's yeah, it's very nice.  [00:24:21] Jason: We go to nice places. All right. Yeah. Cool. A little picky. All right. All right.  [00:24:25] Sarah: Then, second half of the year, we just mirror what we do the first half of the year. So for a lot of things, not for everything, but for a lot of them, we like to have a spring session and a fall session. [00:24:35] So our tribe meetup, we do two per year, one in January and then one in September. And again, this is for our current mastermind clients only. It will be September 11th will be our next in person tribe meetup location to be announced. Why? Because if you're a mastermind member, you guys get to submit your ideas and vote on it. [00:24:52] Then we have another premium mastermind event. So again, spring session, fall session, our fall session will be October 22nd and 23rd. This is open for our current and former mastermind clients. Only this one will be in Water Sound, Florida. We've got a really nice place there lined up. And then boardroom. So again, spring session, fall session. Our fall session will be November 20th and 21st, and we'll hold that here in round rock, Texas. Those are our events that we've got coming up. I'm super excited for all of them.  [00:25:21] Jason: Yeah. I don't know that we've ever talked about all the different events and there's a lot of virtual events and online things we do for our mastermind members as well, besides all of this. [00:25:29] And we've never really talked about this. I don't think as much on the podcast. So I'm sure there's people listening. They're like, "Oh, I didn't realize DoorGrow did all this stuff or had all this stuff going on." We've got a lot going on. Yeah. In fact, one of the consistent pieces of feedback we get from Mastermind members is, "wow, there's a lot." [00:25:44] There is a lot. It can be a little overwhelming in the beginning. So we really hold people's hand to make sure they can navigate everything in DoorGrow Academy, all of our events, all the online classes, everything that we've got going on to make sure that it is geared towards what they need most and they don't get distracted by all the shiny objects everywhere. [00:26:02] So it's important. But if you're interested in any of this. You're interested in coming and jumping into the DoorGrow ecosystem. We have plenty of free trainings we would love to throw at you based on what your current challenges are, so you can get an idea of how we can support you, how we can help you. We've got a lot of case studies and testimonials. [00:26:18] I think over a hundred now on our playlist on YouTube of our case studies you can check out. See if you can trust these DoorGrow people. And once you're beyond the paywall and you're in with our clients, you'll get it. It's pretty awesome. But between now and then, feel free to join our Facebook group, which I mentioned earlier, go to DoorGrowClub.com and you get access to our podcast live. You get access to our masterclasses that we promote. That are free, you get access to a lot of really cool stuff and we've got a bunch of stuff, cool stuff in the file section there as well. It's available.  [00:26:51] It's a great online community. And if you join it and you have to put in your email address, answer the questions and if we give you access, it's for property management business owners. We reject 70 percent of applicants. So it's a little bit exclusive, which makes it really cool. But if we give you access, you'll also get five emails that are sent to you. Like a fee Bible we're gonna send you gifts, we're gonna send you some free stuff.  [00:27:15] I think we've covered all the events. Sarah's always coming up with more ideas, so there might be more stuff that we're going to be doing. [00:27:21] But yes, this is a pretty good overview.  [00:27:22] Sarah: If you can give me the opportunity to travel, I'm probably going to take it.  [00:27:25] Jason: She'll add it to the program for sure. All right. All right. So we appreciate everybody hanging out with us. We hope that this has opened your eyes a little bit to some of the cool stuff that's going on in DoorGrow, inspiring you to get plugged into our ecosystem. [00:27:37] And we are all about helping property management business owners take their business to the next level and grow. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:27:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:28:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today on the podcast, Sarah joins us from Minnesota. Sarah got COVID-19 very early on in her first pregnancy during the height of the pandemic. The protocol at her practice was to recommend a precautionary 39-week induction. Sarah trusted her doctor and consented to the induction along with other interventions that were suggested. Her birth ended in a Cesarean under general anesthesia. During recovery, Sarah's knees would buckle to the point where she needed assistance walking and fell until the problem slowly resolved. When she achieved her VBAC, Sarah was able to immediately walk unassisted. She wasn't groggy from just having had anesthesia. Her throat didn't hurt. She got the immediate skin-to-skin she missed the first time.Sarah is such an amazing example of how powerful a VBAC birth can be, especially with the right prep and the right team. We just love how hands-off and supportive her doctor was. Sarah went into her birth mentally and physically strong. She labored hard, stayed calm, and pushed her baby boy out in 20 minutes!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link. We have a story for you today coming from Minnesota. We have our friend, Sarah. And Sarah, tell me. Did you have your babies both in Minnesota or have you moved since then? Sarah: Yes, both in Minnesota. Meagan: Both in Minnesota. All right, so Minnesota parents, listen up. This is a wonderful episode in your area. Review of the WeekAs always, we have a Review of the week but first I want to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Sarah and I were just talking about how we have seen so many COVID-19 stories coming through. They had their C-section through COVID-19 or even had their VBAC during COVID-19 and then now they have gone on to VBAC. There is definitely a trend of situations that we are seeing so I'm just so curious today. Go comment on today's episode and let us know if you have any relation, but a lot of providers are wanting to induce if you have the virus, COVID-19. Sarah, that was kind of the case with you, right? They wanted to induce because you had COVID-19. Sarah: Yes. That was kind of the standard of care at that point. Meagan: Yes, which is kind of interesting to think about the new standard of care. I really am curious to see one day what the Cesarean rates did during COVID-19. You know, there is some evidence here and there on it, but I'm really curious to see what the Cesarean rate did because we do have a lot of people saying that they were induced because they had COVID and then they ended in a Cesarean. So we're going to talk a little bit. She's going to share her birth and her induction story that then led to her VBAC. But of course, we have that review. It is by Raving Abbeh and the title is “Confidence.” It says, “I found this podcast at 34 weeks pregnant and it helped me gain the confidence to fight for my chance and get a VBAC. I hope to submit a success story in a few weeks.” And guess what? This was also during 2020, so Raving Abbeh, if you haven't submitted your story, we would love you to and as always, you guys, we're always accepting stories. We definitely record in chunks, so know that if it takes time, that doesn't mean you haven't been chosen or you will never be chosen, but if you want to submit your story, go to thevbaclink.com/share. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Sarah: I'm so excited. Meagan: I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Well, tell us more about this 39-week induction and why they were saying it was the new norm. It was the protocol, right? Sarah: Yes. So at this time, I was working full-time in the hospital where I gave birth as a radiographer– an X-ray tech. I was kind of in the world a little bit. It was definitely not a fun time to work in the hospital. I actually tested positive when I was 8 weeks pregnant, so very newly pregnant. I was seeing family med for my provider and what they were doing at that time, they said, “Okay. This is what's going to be different. You're going to meet with a high-risk OB who specialized in COVID.” I would have growth ultrasounds every 4 weeks and then also, they were recommending this induction at 39 weeks. When I asked about that, what she said was that they had seen issues with the placenta. That was the reason that they had. I actually looked back on it now and I think in the study, they really only had 16 pregnant people so that was what they were basing this all off on. Meagan: Which is really nothing to start making a protocol so wide-ranged. Sarah: Right. Right. And actually, right now, my sister-in-law had COVID and she's pregnant. She had COVID at the same time I did at 8 weeks, but now it's 2023 and her doctor is not doing the growth ultrasounds. They're not recommending induction. There actually is nothing different with her current, right-now pregnancy which I find interesting. Meagan: Interesting, right? Right? Sarah: But again, it can range. Meagan: In 2020, it's interesting because they were like, “Oh, we're going to have you with this provider who specializes in COVID pregnancies,” but how does someone specialize that fast? Sarah: Right. The person that was the specialized person was the highest-up person in the department of OB. Meagan: Okay, so definitely a specialized OB. Okay. Sarah: Right. I actually only ended up meeting up with her one time because if there was anything abnormal, that's when I would go to her but my pregnancy was completely normal. I had no issues related to COVID or related to anything else which was obviously a blessing, but kind of also a bummer because now, I'm going to have this completely unnecessary induction at 39 weeks.Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: She did mention at the time that if I wanted to go past 39 weeks, I could definitely make that choice but she would do NSTs. Now after learning so much and being where I am now, I would have been like, “Okay. Let's go longer and do NSTs,” but at the time as a first-time parent, I was like, “That sounds kind of weird. Let's just do what you think.” Meagan: It sounds intense with all of these extra visits. It's a lot. It sounds like a lot. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise, about that pregnancy, being a first-time parent and having this medical background, it's no surprise probably that my attitudes towards the doctors were that I completely trusted their knowledge with the COVID stuff because it was so new. Meagan: Oh yeah, and scary. Sarah: Yeah, definitely, but I was completely unaware that there was such a wide range of ways to treat pregnancies and so many different attitudes on how to birth babies. I was just clueless to the whole thing about the cascade of interventions and why do inductions have an increased risk of C-section? I was completely clueless to it. I am just used to with a doctor, you have a certain condition and there are ways to treat it. It was very narrow. But with birth, there are midwives. There are doulas. There are so many different ways to treat someone's birth and pregnancy that was just over my head. When people would ask me, “Oh, why are you having an induction?” and tell me that maybe I shouldn't do that, I was like, “Oh, well why wouldn't I when they say that is the best thing to do for this COVID situation?” For me, it was like, “Well, they know better than me.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Sarah: I think you say all the time that you don't know what you don't know. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know and you can't judge yourself for not knowing what you don't know. Sarah: Yes. I definitely had to work through forgiving myself for sure. Meagan: Yeah. You have to take the information. I think I talked about this too. My husband had said this. We took the information we were given and made the best choice that we felt we had with the information provided. Sarah:  Yes. Meagan: Right? And that's what you did. Sarah: Right. Honestly, it's funny now. Even just preparing for birth in general, take away the COVID part, it's kind of funny how I did basically nothing to prepare for birth. I just focused on my registry and other things like that after the baby got there. It was kind of because I had this, “Oh if I go with the flow, I'll have the best outcome. I don't want to put too many expectations on myself. I don't want to pressure myself. I'm just going to go with the flow. I don't know how my body is going to handle it,” which does have a place. There is a goodness to that, but I think I was a little too extreme where I was like, “My mom had C-sections. I know if that happens, it happens.” It was just very, “Whatever happens, happens.” Now, I look back and I'm like, “Well, now all I did was have no tools in my toolbox to deal with pain, labor, or resources to help make those hard decisions that I was going to have to make.” I had nothing in the background to help me with that. Meagan: No tools in your toolbox. Sarah: Exactly. That's why it was very different for my second birth but at that time, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, happens. I don't know what's going to happen to me or how my body is going to take it, so we'll just see what happens.” I was scheduled at 39 weeks on a Monday and actually, that Friday before, they called me and said, “Hey, do you want to come in early? We have a lot of people scheduled on Monday.” I was like, “Oh, I'm excited to meet my baby. I'll go in even earlier,” which is like, oh. Okay. That weekend, we were actually moving into our new house an hour away. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: We actually spent one night at our new house and the next day we drove back to Rochester to have our baby but we were so excited. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Sarah: I wasn't even thinking about anything else. We were scheduled for a 7:00 PM Saturday appointment then. When I got there, I was completely 0% dilated. Closed. 0, 0, 0, -3 station. Furthest from ready. Meagan: Not ready to have a baby, yeah. Sarah: No. So they started me with Cytotec overnight and in the morning, they placed the Cook catheter then they started Pitocin right after. I faintly remember watching Beauty and the Beast bouncing on a ball, but that was the extent of any movement in my labor. Like I said, I didn't prepare for anything. I just was like, “Oh, bounce on a ball. Everyone says that's good.” I didn't do much. But what did start happening was the baby was having decels, not liking the Pitocin, so I had to get moved from side to side. I was lying on the bed– not the best position to have the baby not be so high up. Meagan: Right. Sarah: But then by 10:00 AM, they took out the Cook catheter. I was 4 centimeters dilated. Things were moving along. But then at 11:00, they had to turn down the Pitocin because again, the baby was still not tolerating it very well. Then I felt a big pop in my belly and I was like, “Oh, is this what it feels like when your water breaks?” I was excited. I'm like, “Oh, that sounded like a balloon popping.” So they came in and they were like, “No, we don't see anything. Your water didn't break.” I was like, “Oh, okay sure.” Meagan: I felt something. Sarah: So then a half hour later, they came back in because they had to actually turn off the Pitocin because the baby still wasn't happy. They checked me and they're like, “Oh, there's all your water,” and it gushed out on them. So I was like, “Okay, well at least I know that I can trust my intuition even though you didn't quite believe me.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: But I'm not crazy. It did break. The contractions were getting really intense at this point. I tried laughing gas. It didn't really work. At that point, I decided, “Okay. I'm ready for an epidural. I feel like I've gotten as far as I can with what I prepared,” which was nothing. I actually found out this after the fact, but at this point, they actually gave me medicine to stop my contractions. Meagan: Like terbutaline or something?Sarah: Yes, exactly. They gave me that at this point. I actually have no recollection of this, but I was able to look at my records after the fact and I was like, “Oh, I never knew they even gave me that.” Apparently, they gave me that to stop things or slow them down or whatever. I was about 5 centimeters dilated at this point and they placed the epidural. Everything went smoothly with that and then an hour later, they were like, “Oh, we're going to start the Pitocin again.” I was like, “Okay.” I was 5 centimeters at that point and then 40 minutes later, they checked me and I was 9 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa, so your body went into total relaxation mode and dilated. Sarah: Yes. Yes. I was like, “Cool. That was fast.” They had just sent away the doctor. They had to call her back. Shortly after that, I was at 10 centimeters, ready to go. This is when they had me start pushing. One important part that I know now is that I don't remember ever feeling pressure or the urge to push or anything like that. They were just like, “Okay. It's time to push.” I'm like, “Okay.”I did end up pushing for about 3 hours. They did let me try a few different positions. They tried to turn down my epidural to help too, but she never really progressed past that zero station. So nothing was happening. I was mostly on my back for all of it.I remember them saying that they would let me push for the most at 4 hours, but at the 3-hour mark, I was exhausted. I felt like we had made no progress. I was just like, “Nothing's going to change in another hour at this point for me. I don't know what I'm doing. You try to tell me how to push. I still don't know.” Meagan: Yeah. You're just like, “I'm tired.” Sarah: Exactly. The contractions were beginning to be really painful. Again, I didn't really have a way to cope with them. The pushing wasn't working so I consented to the C-section. I just remember feeling so defeated and just crying, being wheeled into the OR. My doctor stayed right by my head and talked to me until my husband was supposed to come in because I kept saying, “Hey, I feel these contractions. They are strong.” They were trying to give me all of the medicine to numb me enough. They were doing the prick test to make sure that I couldn't feel it and I just remember it was really hard because my nose was plugged up from crying. I felt like I couldn't breathe anyway. I wasn't sure about the pokes. I was like, “They are sharp to me. I feel them. They don't feel like pressure. They feel sharp.” They were like, “Okay. Well, we're going to have to put you under.” They put the mask on me. I breathed in and went to sleep. Meagan: And you were gone. Sarah: Yep. Then I was gone. Meagan: Your husband probably never came in then? Sarah: So he did get to go into the OR. She was born. They let him go in so he was all gowned up. He was in the OR. He kind of tells it like, “Yeah, it was so weird. I looked over and there you were on the table.” He wasn't so close to me. Meagan: Sleeping. Sarah: But yeah. I was sleeping. He did get to do skin-to-skin. They let him do that in the OR which was really nice. They got a bunch of pictures of her getting weighed and him cutting the cord in there so it was nice to have some of those pictures that I can look back on. Meagan: Right. Sarah: That's something. Meagan: Right, yeah. It helps you relate, too, when you're not awake. Sarah: Exactly. It was definitely a weird experience. But when I did come to, apparently, I had been awake longer but you know how that works. When you're waking up from anesthesia, it's kind of weird. But apparently, when I woke up, they told me that I was just like, “Where's the baby? Where's the baby? Where's the baby?” They rushed me back. I don't remember any of that, but what I do remember is when I woke up, my throat was so sore and hurt so bad. But she was on me and she latched immediately and started feeding so that was really special. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: Just how she was able to eat right away and I didn't have any problems with that which was really nice. I know that can happen sometimes. That's basically that birth. Meagan: An unexpected ending and a less-ideal situation, but then to come out and have things work out really nicely was probably really healing and comforting. Sarah: Yes. Right away, I was definitely happy. She was healthy. I was okay. She was eating. But I remember just recovering from a C-section, you're in a fog. I remember my legs being in those machines to keep the blood flowing, having a catheter, having my sore throat, and whispering to talk. That kind of thing was definitely not a fun recovery in that aspect right immediately after. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: I actually had a really weird thing. I had problems with my knees. Meagan: Oh. Sarah: I have never heard anyone else talk about this. Meagan: Interesting, like wobbly and strong? Sarah: So what happened was once they took out the catheter and then they give you the, “Okay, it's time to try to go to the bathroom for the first time.” When I tried to stand up, my knees would just buckle. The first day, I had to have two people assist me to the bathroom. The second day, it was also a two-assist. Slowly, they started to not always buckle. I was in the hospital, I think, for four days. Four or five days. Eventually, they wouldn't buckle but when I got home, they would buckle when I went upstairs. I did fall twice but slowly, they did get better. It was fine. It was just if I unexpectedly took a step. My cat scared me and I stepped and then I would fall because my knee wasn't expecting it. Meagan: I just looked it up because I am legitimately curious. It says, “Acute lower limb compartment syndrome after a Cesarean.” Sarah: Oh. Hmm. Meagan: Interesting. So it can happen. Sarah: Interesting. I was just kind of assuming it was a mix of me being numbed from the waist down for hours and then my legs being up in the air for hours and then being in the C-section, and then also laying down. Do you know what I mean? Something with that, but no doctor or anything ever said anything to me about it. They were just like, “Oh, okay. That's weird.” Meagan: Yeah. Really, really interesting. It says that it's rare. Sarah: Oh. Meagan: It's pretty rare, so you get to be in one of those rare groups. Thank you for sharing. Sarah: Yeah, so otherwise, I hadn't really fully processed the birth but every time I would tell my birth story, I would choke up or cry and that's when I realized, “Oh, maybe I didn't really like that very much” because at first, you're just happy the baby is okay and you're okay. I actually remember right afterward, I was like, “Oh, okay for any other baby, I'll just schedule a C-section. This time it will be planned and I'm going to be awake for it.” I honestly wasn't even thinking about VBAC right away. I was just like, “Oh, the future will be easier. It will be fine.” But when my daughter was around 6 months old, I started to listen to The Birth Hour and I found myself searching C-section stories, looking for things like mine which led me to hearing VBAC stories, searching those out, and then finally finding The VBAC Link. That was the big game changer. I am so appreciative of you guys having this podcast and keeping it going on and all that. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: Such an inspiration. I learned so much even from both podcasts about interventions, doulas, birth teams, and most importantly, trusting in a woman's body. It kind of leads me to this big thing. It's like, why do we have to go through some sort of trauma to become an advocate for women and educate ourselves? Meagan: Right? Sarah: I feel like that's such a theme. Meagan: It's so true though. It's so true. Why do we have to go through a really crappy experience? It doesn't always have to be crappy. I'm not saying C-sections are crappy, but a big experience to have passion and to feel that motivation behind that.Sarah: Exactly. Yep. Sometimes, it's so hard because it's like when you talk to someone who hasn't been affected by this kind of situation where it doesn't go their way in the hospital, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. “You can't trust the doctors.” That's not what we're saying. It's so much more than that. Meagan: It is. It really is. It's not even just in birth. Truly, right? My husband does not do what he does, I think, mainly just because he didn't want to do it one day. It was like, “Hey, this really unfortunate situation happened to someone I love and I want to be available in a different manner to help them or help anybody else.” So he took on his profession. It's like IBCLCs– I'm sure a lot of them have had unfortunate or poor nursing experiences and are like, “We want to help other people have better experiences.”Sarah: Yes, because it's the information that, “Oh, wow.” It makes complete sense that, “Oh, things might go a little bit better if you let your body naturally do it.” Oh, well yeah. That makes sense. It makes sense that, “Oh, if I have someone who's trained in positioning, maybe if I move my body in this way, then I can get my baby in a better position to come out better. Oh, that makes sense. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't my doctor say, ‘Hey, there are some positions that can help.'” It's confusing to me. It's like, well that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So obviously, I just dove right into all of the VBAC stuff and learning all about that and listening to different stories. I was super excited for my next pregnancy because I had made the decision, “Yes. I'm going to go for a VBAC and I'm super excited about it.” I was ready to do all of the things to make it more successful. We got pregnant when my daughter was around 15 months old. We wanted a two-year age gap and they're both two years apart in April so that worked out for us. Meagan: Perfectly, yeah. Sarah: So the things I did to make it more successful– they are all things that people on this podcast talk about. For physical things, it was workouts that focused on birth prep. I didn't do anything crazy like walking for miles and miles every day. I just did the minimal which was doing some exercises every day for hips opening, cat/cow, and all of that stuff. I did the Miles Circuit later on in pregnancy every day. I ate my dates every day. I drank my tea.Then I think the biggest thing, too, is mentally preparing. For mentally preparing, I got my doula. I really love that the doula does the meetings before the birth. I didn't even know that when I had heard people talk about doulas but meeting before and talking about what birth plan I wanted, what things– Meagan: Your desires. Sarah: Exactly and what things could happen. I'm like, “This would be so helpful for a first-time parent to know all of this stuff.” I wish I had gotten her with my first. Also, just talking about coping mechanisms, what are some positions that we are going to do, talk about scenarios. It was great. Then I also, for mentally preparing, I looked up a bunch of different coping mechanisms. I actually did Hypnobabies. I wasn't consistent with the meditation, but it was very helpful to practice the breathing and visualization. Meagan: I did too. I did it as well. Sarah: I was really bad at the meditations so that didn't stick with me, but it was really, really great to practice the breathing and all of that. And honestly, just listening to birth stories is mentally preparing because I would really only focus on positive stories toward the end of my pregnancy. I was like, “Okay, now we are in the home stretch. We are just going to stick to all of the positive ones.” The big thing, too, was finding my provider. I joined The VBAC Cesarean Support Group on Facebook way earlier and everyone had all of the recommendations of who to go to. My provider is actually family med, but he is more like a midwife. Actually, my doula said that he's actually more crunchy than a midwife as a family med. For all of the births that she attended, she said, “He is more hands-off than a midwife.” I'm like, “Wow.” Meagan: Wow, that's cool. Sarah: And what's great is that he attends all of his births so there is no rotating call schedule. Meagan: Which is huge. Sarah: There's no, “Who's going to be there?” He's very trusting of women's bodies. I did my due diligence and I asked him, “How often have you personally seen a uterine rupture? How often do you use the vacuum? How often have you done episiotomies?” You know, so just asking him all of the things. He had really great responses and I felt really solid with him. Meagan: Which is really important, right? To have those conversations also. We know that when they come in and they say, “Hey, do you have any questions?” It's really okay to ask questions. Sarah: Yes. That's the big thing. So because he's not an OB, I had to go do a consult with the OB that he works with in the hospital. The OB who works in the hospital definitely wasn't making me fearful, but there's a certain form you have to fill out that says, “Hey, obviously if you're successful with your TOLAC, that's going to be the safest option for you. But if you're not successful, that's the least safe.” It's easy to plant doubt, but after I saw him again, I asked my provider, “How often do you see it?” It was such a small amount and since he's one of the VBAC go-tos, I felt very confident with him. It was really nice to have that fear taken away in that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: And then this is kind of interesting. Just for fun, I did message my old provider at my previous hospital just to see what she would say about my chances for VBAC. I actually messaged her before I was pregnant. I said, “Hey, I am kind of processing and struggling from my C-section. What do you think about my chance for VBAC?” It was just on a message. What she said was, “You did everything you could at that time to have her vaginally, but she just didn't fit your pelvis for whatever reason. We think of fitting as a lock and key situation. Both pieces have to work together to open, so there's no way to know if a future baby would ever fit your pelvis better than she did.” Then she kind of went on. I thought, “Nope.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not taking that in.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It was interesting. Meagan: Thank you so much, but no thanks. Sarah: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, “I don't think she didn't fit my pelvis. That's not a thing.” Meagan: But you know, it's an easy thing for people to say or diagnose. It's like, “Oh, well your baby was perfect. You were perfect, but the two together didn't really match that time.” Sarah: Right. Meagan: That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. We just don't know. Sarah: Again, we can't go back in time and have me try something different. Meagan: Yes, yes. Sarah: But I think it's interesting that she said that. Meagan: It is. Sarah: Again, I talked to my doctor. He's like, “Oh yeah. Great. Let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: He said, “You've got this.” So you know. Otherwise, I'm preparing. This is the funny thing too, again. At first, I didn't have any intention of trying to go unmedicated. At first. I was like, “I definitely want to VBAC,” but I wasn't trying to do that. I was just focused on the VBAC part. But once you hear enough birth stories, you know that if I do all of this preparation and I go as long as I can without this intervention, I'm going to have the best possible chance of a healthy vaginal birth. If it still ends in a C-section, it's because that was what had to happen not because I didn't know any better. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So that's when I was like, “Yes, okay. It makes sense for me to try. I should just try to go unmedicated. I should just do it. Whatever happens, happens.” I still am keeping my go-with-the-flow but with a lot of preparation. It was kind of funny because when I would tell people that, “I'm trying to go unmedicated,” people will say the craziest things to you. Meagan: Right? “I could never.” Sarah: Yes, or “I know someone who did and it was the worst thing they ever chose to do. They said, ‘Never do that.'” It's like, I know and I've heard many, many stories of people doing it and are very happy with the outcome. So definitely right before, I was 37 weeks. I was like, “I'm going to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.” Everybody talks about it, but I just wanted to hone in and focus on those unmedicated birth stories and just say, “How did you guys do this? How was it successful?” That was really helpful. I really liked that book. That was really good. Meagan: Yeah. I really like it too. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise in this pregnancy though, I physically felt really good. I got Braxton Hicks contractions which I didn't have in my first pregnancy. That was definitely new. Meagan: Yes. Probably exciting. Sarah: It was exciting. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Every birth is different.” That was one of the Hypnobabies thing that stuck with me. Each baby is different. Your birth is going to be different. Don't let that fear creep in on you. But at 33 weeks, I found out the baby was breech so that was scary. Meagan: Yeah. It throws you for a loop, right? Sarah: Yes. When I found out that he was breech, I immediately messaged my doula. She gave me Spinning Babies exercises to do every day. I was making sure I was sitting forward and all of that stuff. Then I went to see a chiropractor first and then she also gave me this massage therapist who was trained in breech balancing massage. I went to both of those and the baby was flipped at my next appointment at 35 weeks. Meagan: Yay. Sarah: So I was very happy. The coolest thing with the massage therapist—in our state, I'm pretty sure she is maybe the only one who does this breech balancing massage. She told me because I actually went to do a follow-up appointment. Even though he was already head down, I was like, “Let's just go again to make sure.” She said that she was treating six other breech moms at that time and they had all flipped when I came back from my second appointment. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: Yeah. I'm always in the groups. I'm like, “If anyone is breech, try this specific breech balancing massage. Yeah.” It's really interesting just listening to her talk about it because she is so knowledgeable about, “Hey, your baby is breech for a reason. You have these muscles that get tightened. Your pelvis is this bowl and if things are in the wrong position, the baby wants to be head down. If I can release all of these muscles and make more space in there, even if the massage might not on its own make your baby flip, but giving your baby that space, then your ECV is more successful if you do that. Meagan: Right. Sarah: I was very happy because I had done all of this work and hyped myself up. I wouldn't want to have to schedule a C-section for this reason after all of that but if it happened, it happened. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: So everything was going good then until my 39-week appointment. I had a high blood pressure reading so I was like, “Oh great.” But my doctor was not worried. He had me do an NST, labs, and monitor at home. I came back in a few days and everything was good. That was nice. Actually, the day that I went back for my follow-up for my high blood pressure was the day that I got my birth records. They had my birth records there for me. I had gone this whole time. I was almost 40 weeks and I was like, “I still really want to see.” Meagan: You had requested them? Sarah: Yeah, and it just took a really long time to get them. When I had that appointment, I was able to get my birth records earlier than I thought. I didn't think I was even going to get them by the time I had the baby. I was able to read through them and kind of work through it. My doula was like, “Oh, do you want to call and talk about it?” I was like, “Yes.” It was kind of like a fear release for me because that night I went into labor. Meagan: Yeah. Did you find anything in there that you didn't know before? Sarah: I mean, that one thing was that terbutaline. I didn't know that. And then I was just curious about some of the dilation. Also, I saw on my records too that the surgeon who did my C-section put, “This patient is a candidate for a TOLAC.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah: It was nice just to have that and to see that the surgeon who did my C-section would put that on my note like, “Yeah. They are a candidate.”Meagan: Yeah, it's helpful. Sarah: Just working through it too was nice to see it in a timeline. So that night was the night I went into labor. At 2:00 AM, I woke up with my contractions. Right away, they were 3-7 minutes apart. I had the same situation three weeks before where I woke up and had contractions that were 3-7 minutes apart, but they fizzled out and didn't come back. I only had that situation one time earlier. So I was like, “Oh, this could be another practice. This could be the real thing.” But they were stronger than the last time. That's the biggest thing too. Even though they were so close together, I was handling them so well that I was like, “I think I'll just wait this out,” which is interesting because if you're a first-time mom, you're like, “Hey, this is 4-1-1. I'm having them.” Meagan: You have to go! Sarah: And they're long. A lot of them were long like at least a minute, but they just weren't strong so I was like, “Okay, well I'll wait.” Then my husband woke up at 4:00 AM. I was like, “Hey, I'm having these contractions.” His response was, “I'd better hurry up and go work. I've got some work to get done.” He's like, “Oh no. I gotta go.” So then he went away to go work on stuff. Then by 6:00 AM, I was like, “Okay.” I had a couple really strong ones so I was like, “Oh.” Then I was also getting back labor so I was like, “All right. Time to text the doula.” I was like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” She was like, “Well, your back pain might be because of the baby's position, so try to do the Miles Circuit. Eat a good breakfast. Hydrate. I'm preparing you for possibly a long day.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I had my bagel with cream cheese. I got my Body Armor drinks out, but when I tried to do the Miles Circuit, it was so intense. I could not. The minute I laid down and I had a contraction in the Miles Circuit position, the laying down one, it was like, “Whoa, no.” Meagan: Not gonna happen. Sarah: I'm like, “I think this is time for me to start going into some prep mode here.” So I dimmed the lights in my room. I had my ball but I actually didn't like bouncing on it so I never bounced on it. Meagan: Was it uncomfortable? Sarah: Yeah. For me, that seated position was uncomfortable. For me, I was in a forward-leaning position. I'd lean against the wall and sway or I'd have my husband come. I'd hug him and sway. I'm like, “This is working out okay.” The back labor was a different aspect that was like, “There's got to be something I can do for this back labor.” I messaged her and she's like, “Okay, well obviously have him try to do hip squeezes,” but he wasn't really getting the job done with the hip squeezes. She recommended the shower to also help us see if it's going to calm down or if it will keep going. I got in the shower and it was magic. The heat on the back was perfect. My favorite thing ever, but the hot water ran out after 15 minutes and I was so sad. Meagan: Oh shoot. Sarah: So the hot water ran out and I was like, “Oh man.” I got out of the shower and I was like, “Now we might just have to go to the hospital right now because I need hot water. I want to get in that tub.” That was my dream was getting in the tub. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So my doula checked in with me at this point and asked about the shower. I was like, “Yeah.” I think I was kind of in denial because I was like, “Oh, it's medium intense,” but they were still happening. She was like, “Okay, well maybe you should start heading in as long as they are staying 3-4 minutes consistently for an hour. Go ahead and start heading in.” At this point, she also tells me that she is actually in another birth. Then she joined me with the backup doula so she was at another birth. I was like, “Oh bummer.” But my backup doula ended up being amazing as well. But you know, when you're preparing with someone— Meagan: Can I just say right there that is a real thing? It's usually if you have to have a backup doula, it usually works out so well. Right? Sarah: Yeah, it was so good. Meagan: But like you were saying as I was cutting you off, as you were preparing with someone else, it's hard. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of a bummer because you know this person so well and you had worked with them, but it worked out perfectly fine too. I really like my backup doula. She's great as well. She told me, again because I was like, “Hey, what can I do for now? We're going to head in probably soon but what else can I do for this back pain?” She was like, “Do you have a heating pack?” I'm like, “Ooh, yes.” I was putting a hot pack on my back which again, wasn't hot enough for me. Meagan: You needed a hot tub. Sarah: It did something. At this point, my daughter had actually woken up because we were still at home. It was about 8:00 and she was so sweet. Every time I'd have a contraction, I'd go into my room. I'd have my calming music on and my swaying but then I would leave and I'd come back out with her. She was just so sad. She wasn't crying, but she had these big tears welling up in her eyes. I would hold her and she would pat my back. She was like, “It's okay.” It's like she knew that something was going on. I was like, “I'm okay. It's okay.” She was just kind of like, “What is going on?” I wasn't making loud, loud noises but I would be doing horse lips through them or moaning. Meagan: Coping. Sarah: Yeah, nothing too crazy, but for her, she could tell that something was going on. Luckily, my mother-in-law and sister-in-law came over shortly after that around 8:30ish. My sister-in-law took my daughter and was like, “Let's go play,” so she was good. She was good. My mother-in-law saved me because she said, “Oh, I will boil hot water.” So she got a big pot and boiled hot water. She put cloths in them and put those on my back. That was amazing. Meagan: I bet that felt really good. Sarah: Right. So at this point, my husband probably should have been getting the cars ready for us to go to the hospital, but instead, he was cleaning the house frantically. Meagan: That was probably his way of coping. “Oh my gosh, this is happening. I'm going to go work and then I'm going to go clean the house.” Sarah: Yes. Yes, so we're like, “Okay, it's time. We've got to get going.” I'm like, “Yeah. I've got to get going.” So finally, we get in the car. My back is soaking wet from these hot towels but they are saving me. Luckily, the drive was only 10 minutes. I had my hot towel in there. It wasn't the most comfortable, but we got there. They checked us in and they moved us to triage. At this point, again, the sitting position was not my position for labor. It was, “Nope, not happening.” I was always kneeling, facing the back of the bed. The back of the bed was up. I held onto it. Then when I was in triage, though, I didn't have my coping mechanisms. I didn't have my hot towels. My next plan that I had was the comb technique. I had packed a couple of combs. I was telling my husband, “All right. Your hip squeezes—” he was trying to find the combs and of course, he couldn't find the combs that I brought. But he did remember that he brought his own comb. Meagan: Hey! Sarah: So I was able to take his comb which I can say RIP to his comb. I used it. There were little comb tings, whatever they are called, the teeth of the comb were everywhere at the end of my birth but it definitely worked. So then every time I would have a contraction, I was pushing on the comb and breathing as they were checking me into triage. But they were able to kind of get the band on me. They gave me an ultrasound to make sure the baby was head down while I was in triage. Then they checked me. The nurse checked me and when she was down there, she was like, “Oh, it's really hard to tell how dilated you are because you have a bulging bag of waters and I really can't tell what you're doing.” She was like, “I think you're almost complete.” I'm like, “Okay.” Meagan: Whoa. Sarah: I'm like, “Okay.” This whole time, she'd been trying to call someone on her radio, but they were really busy. At that point, she was like, “Okay, let's get this room.” She was like, “I'll just wheel you on this bed unless you want to walk.” I'm like, “Actually, I want to walk.” I was actually thinking, “You know what? I think I want the bed that is in the room. The triage beds aren't probably as comfortable.” That's where my mind was so I was like, “Let me just walk.” Meagan: No. Sarah: So they get me in the room and again, my doula is on her way but she's not there yet. It's about, I think, 10:00. My doctor comes in. They put the little IV on my arm in case I need any medicine. All I'm doing right now- Meagan: Hep lock. Sarah: Yes, exactly. All I'm saying is that I just wanted to get in the tub. This is me the whole time in triage. Meagan: I just want the water. Sarah: I want to get in the tub. I want to get in the tub. The comb is helping, but I want to get in the tub. So he comes in. I'm like, “Hey, can I get in the tub?” He's like, “Well, you can but I should probably check you first if you want me to. If you're really close like the nurse thinks, then you'll have to push soon possibly.” I'm like, “Yes. Check me because then, if I'm not, I can get in the tub.” That was in the back of my mind. He checked me. He's down there for a while and I'm finally like, “Okay, you've got to get out.” He's like, “I understand why they are having a hard time. Yes. You have a big, bulging bag of waters. I can tell why she had a hard time and I think you're maybe 7 or 8 centimeters but I can't tell. As soon as the water breaks, you're going to be fast.” I was like, “Sounds like I can get in the tub.” He was like, “Yes, you can.” Meagan: You're like, “Perfect.” Sarah: Perfect. This is when my doula came around this time. She helped get the tub in motion because they were like, “Well, it's going to take a while. We've got to get you on these mobile monitors.” She went in and she got the water going and I was able to get in the tub. The only problem is that once I got in the tub, I was like, “Oh, I think I have to poop,” which is the magic— Meagan: Means you're going to have a baby! Sarah: She was like, “Well if you want, you can sit on the toilet and see if you actually do poop.” I was like, “Sounds like a plan.” I sat on the toilet facing the back of the toilet. I had my hands on my comb. My comb was with me everywhere. That's when I had the scary, scary transition contraction. I was so happy I had her there because she was saying all of the right things and at this point, I can't remember any of them except for her saying to me, “This is the hardest part, but it's also the shortest. You are in transition.” When I heard her, I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I was a little shaky. You just feel so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I don't know about this. I'm not sure about this.” Meagan: You start questioning. It's weird. Sarah: It is really, yeah. But she was saying all of the things I needed to hear, so I was good. So then I was like, “Okay, no poop is coming. Let's get back in the tub.” So I got back in the tub, and then I had probably one contraction and then a lab person came to the door and was like, “I've got to take your blood.” We're like, “Uh, okay. Let's just wait until she's in between contractions.” I'm like, “That's a good idea.” So she comes in. She turns on the light. I'm like, “This is throwing off my vibe.” She sits down next to me and she scans my band and then they were like, “Okay, let's wait for the next one.” The next contraction came and it was the, “My body is pushing! I'm pushing. Help!” I had that fetal ejection reflex, but my water was still intact so it was more of the water ejection reflex. Meagan: It was pushing that, yeah. Exactly. Sarah: My body did the thing where it pushed on its own. I've always heard about this when I've listened to the podcasts that this happens. I was always like, “Oh, I want that. That sounds nice. Do it for me,” but I did not like it. Nope. Especially because I was in the tub, maybe that's why, but I just felt so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I'm not controlling this pushing,” but I was also very excited because I knew that meant it was time. The lab person promptly left the bathroom and they never got my blood. I don't know why they needed it, but they never got it. Meagan: I know. It's so weird, “We need your blood right now.” It's like, “Really? Why?” Sarah: Yeah. Especially when, “Oh, I'm in transition about to have a baby.” I think you're okay. Meagan: Seriously. Sarah: I had that. So that happened and then my doula was like, “Well, do you think you want to get in the bed?” I'm like, “Yes. If a baby is coming, I need to be on the bed.” So again, my favorite position—even my tub position was my hands and knees. I was draping my hand on the back of the bed kind of in that—I wasn't really hands and knees because I started that way and then I ended up hugging a pillow and kind of squatting back. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Sarah: Yeah. I started pushing. Again, my waters hadn't broken yet which was obviously, this is a big thing with my provider. He is hands-off. Any other provider would have said, “Do you want me to break your water?” Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: That would have been a thing. It was kind of interesting that “Nope. I'm just doing it all on my own what my body wants to do.” I was pushing for about 10 minutes and then my waters exploded. They all knew it was coming, so no one got drenched, but it was so loud. Meagan: Everyone was probably a little sensitive in that area. They were probably like, “I'll walk over here.” Sarah: Yes. They expected it. My doctor was like, “I might get drenched, but I'm ready for it.” But he didn't. Meagan: That's okay. Sarah: It was so loud. I was shocked. It was like a gunshot. It felt like it was just like BAM when I pushed it out. So that was great. Then about 5 minutes after that, he was born. I pushed the waters out and then pushed him out. His head was right there and they were like, “Oh, you can reach down and feel the head.” I'm like, “I can't.” I had to reach down. I'm like, “My arms are too short.” So then I pushed him out. It was about two pushes I think.Yes, as soon as that water was done, yeah. He was two pushes after that. It was about 20 minutes of pushing total. Meagan: Whoa. That's like nothing. Sarah: Yeah, then I got to flip around. They put him on me and they didn't cut the cord until it was done pulsing. They did delayed cord clamping. They did the golden hour. He was just on my chest the whole time. I birthed my placenta which was fine. I did have a small tear which was just something I was scared about with an unmedicated birth. I'm like, “Oh, that will be not pleasant. I hope I don't but again, no idea. I probably will. Most people do.” It was a very small, I guess, second-degree tear but he numbed it. It just felt like a bunch of little bee stings. He numbed it and stitched it. It was fine. Baby was on my chest for that whole hour. What was crazy to me—I also consented to having the Pitocin drip afterward to get the— Meagan: The uterus to contract down, mhmm. Sarah: Yes, yes. I had that. Once that was done, I was able to just stand up and go to the bathroom. Meagan: Amazing, right? Sarah: I could just get up to go to the bathroom. I felt good. I felt fine. This was about 10:50 in the morning, so yeah. I was at the hospital for an hour and a half before he was born. Later that night around 5:00, we had family come over to see the baby that night. I felt as great as could be with still normal postpartum stuff. Meagan: Right. You did just push a baby out. But you weren't knocked out and coming too and all of those other things. Sarah: Yes. So yeah. That's about it for that.Meagan: Aw, yes. Well, congratulations. I'm sure that was a very different experience. I mean, I'm sure both babies were, right? We all cherish our babies' births but to be more present in your baby's birth, I'm sure definitely left an impact. Sarah: Yeah. Even my husband told me that for this time, he actually teared up and felt like it was just such a more of an emotional experience even for him which is completely understandable. It was actually really scary for him with the C-section he told me. They tell you, “Hey, we're going to go put your wife out. We're going to come back and get you and then you're going to come and be part of it.” He's sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. They just kind of say, “Hey, you can't go in anymore. We knocked her out. You have to wait here. It's going to be a while.” Then he's just like, “Oh, is she going to be okay?” It was a little scary for him too, that first one. This was a lot, obviously, more emotional and just a really cool experience for both of us. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was very healing for both of you like you said. That couldn't have been easy for him walking in and seeing you in that manner. I mean, the fact that he even brought it up. “It was weird when I walked in and you were laying there but then I'm over here doing skin-to-skin with this baby.” Sarah: Yep. Meagan: I'm sure it was so healing for both of you. Huge congrats. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Oh, and one thing to mention with the doctor is that because I gave him all of my birth plan too, at no point in this hospital situation was I ever offered anything. They knew what my preferences were. They never said anything about any interventions at all. They never said, “Do you want us to break this water?” Everyone was on board. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. You really didn't feel like you had to fight along the way. Sarah: Yeah. It was all supportive which is what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah, and what you deserved. Sarah: Yeah. It was really great to have that. Honestly, the thing I also really liked about pushing in that position where you are facing the back of the bed was that I didn't see all of the people staring at me. It was nice because—and not that it would have mattered—but I'm kind of socially anxious in that situation so it was nice to just be focused on my husband's hand holding me. I've got my comb. I'm breathing. I'm totally in it. I'm not looking around. With the C-section, that labor was like everyone was staring at you. You're pushing and trying and nothing is happening. It was so nice to just be here in my world. I never even saw anyone. Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes you see people's faces and they are not wanting to communicate with their mouths so they communicate with their faces. So when you are just staring at all of these people surrounding you, you find yourself, “What are they saying?” Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: You start questioning it. It pulls you out of that space. It sounds like you were really able to stay in that space because maybe you didn't see any of that. Sarah: Yes, exactly. When I was pushing, it was really hard. I'm not saying it was easy. “Oh, unmedicated in 20 minutes.” No. It was hard work. There were times when some doubts would creep in and I was like, “What if he's in the canal too long? Will he be okay?” It would be easy for those doubts to creep in, but my doctor and my doula were all saying the things that I needed to hear. “You're doing it. Your body knows what to do. Keep pushing this way. Push like you're going to poop.” They were saying all of the things to keep me focused. It would be so easy if you're not ready to give birth to a baby, that feeling would be very scary. You would feel very out of control. I could see how easy it would be for that to be very, very scary. Having the people there that knew what to say to me was very helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. The team is really that powerful though. It really, really is. Sarah: Mhmm. Meagan: So get a team. If you're looking for a doula, we've got doulas on our website that are VBAC-trained and certified. Get a good provider who is supportive and loving and willing to just like Dr. Ryan, just yeah. “Let's do this. Let's do it.” Super supportive from the get-go. “Yeah, we have to have this consult, but I'm not not supporting you by sending you to this consult.” Sarah: Exactly. Yep. He's like, “This person knows that I do a lot of VBACs. They've been through this before.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Meagan: Well, huge, huge congrats.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Ever wondered what a Declaration of Independence document would look like for property management entrepreneurs? Jason did, so he fed ChatGBT his mission statement and core values. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they go through The Property Management Declaration of Independence. You'll Learn [02:44] Article I: Liberation from Limiting Beliefs [09:40] Article II: Autonomy from Bad Clients [11:54] Article III: Emancipation from Inefficient Processes [13:12] Article IV: Freedom of Experimentation [20:26] Article V: Independence Through Education and Collaboration [29:01] Article VI: Allegiance to Our Core Values [31:36] Article VII: Pursuit of Holistic Success Tweetables “There's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients.” “If you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you.” “If you say, "Oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right.” “If you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible.  [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust, gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO along with Sarah, the COO of DoorGrow. I know, I need to rewrite this intro for when you're here, because sometimes you're here-- and now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:24] Sarah: You stumble on that every time. So funny. I know. I have to like wing it. He's like in the middle of reading it. Okay. " And her over there." [00:01:33] Jason: Let's get into this. All right, so it is Independence Day. It is the 4th of July in which United States declared its independence and fought for freedom, right? So we'regoing to be talking about property management entrepreneurs declaring your independence. So, this is something that I think is important because you've heard me talk before about the four reasons: fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support. Entrepreneurs, we want freedom. And so let's talk about a declaration of independence for property management entrepreneurs. So, I actually have been really having fun playing around with chat GPT and I gave it a bunch of info of how we kind of do things and our philosophy and I had it create a Declaration of Independence. So this should be interesting. So we can go through some of this and we can chat about some of these ideas. And does that sound good? All right.  [00:02:34] Sarah: Well, I guess so because that's what we're doing.  [00:02:36] Jason: Alright. This is what we're doing. She had no clue. She just walked in here. No, and I'm like, this is what we're talking about.  [00:02:42] Sarah: I just show up.  [00:02:44] Jason: She just shows up. Yeah. because she can do that. All right, cool. So, declaration of Independence for property management entrepreneurs. "In the spirit of entrepreneurial growth, the pursuit of freedom in the property management industry." We need to queue up like some patriotic music. [00:03:02] Maybe. I'm just kidding, Madi, maybe you'll add that.  [00:03:05] "We, the United Community of Property Management entrepreneurs solemnly declare our independence from the constraints, inefficiencies, and setbacks that have bound us for too long. We assert our dedication to a brighter, more prosperous, and thriving future." [00:03:20] "Article one, liberation from Limiting Beliefs." So one of the number one things before I read it. One of the number one things clients say that they get from us is mindset. It's just mindset shifts. because that changes everything of how they do things, how their business runs. All right, this is what it says.  [00:03:37] "We vow to liberate ourselves from self-limiting beliefs that hinder innovation and growth. We pledge to foster a growth mindset and no longer allow the words, 'I can't,' or 'it's not possible' to define our reality." So, what have you noticed about limiting beliefs with clients?  [00:03:55] Sarah: Well, I think whatever you think is possible is exactly what is possible. So if you think like, "oh, I can't do it that way," or "This won't work," or like, "oh, my team can't do this," or " I don't have the right tools," then you're absolutely right and it won't happen the way that you want it to or the way that it could. I think some of the biggest shifts I've seen in clients is when they open their mind to different possibilities and when they start to do things just a little differently.  [00:04:27] Jason: So most of our clients are pretty good at believing in us. I think we've gotten really good at convincing them through the sales process and once they get on board, we've got plenty, tons of case studies. But occasionally we get a client that comes in and they are skeptical about everything and maybe somehow they missed all the details during the onboarding and the sales process, and they don't believe. They have these limiting beliefs, "this stuff won't work." What do we notice in terms of results between those shitty clients and everyone else? [00:05:00] Sarah: Well, first, I don't think it's fair to call them shitty clients.  [00:05:03] Jason: Okay. Maybe we don't. Shitty mindset clients.  [00:05:05] Yeah. I think it's fair to say  [00:05:06] Sarah: like, "Hey, your mindset is shitty." Yeah. And I get that like my mindset used to be completely different. Totally different. Like I grew up in a place , where. Anybody that was making a million dollars a year, like I just didn't know it. Like, I was like, "oh, like, Hollywood. That's like what happens there, like when you're famous and you're like, this is just what happens out there. Or like, maybe big cities but not here. And because they didn't have any kind of example or anything tangible to say like, "Hey, they did it so I can do it." I just didn't believe that it was possible. And when I got out of that area, and now I'm in an area where it's very entrepreneurial based and business friendly and people just have a different kind of thought process around here, and we spend a lot of time with people who they're elevated in their thinking. And now I'm like, "yeah, it's a hundred percent possible." Absolutely possible. So I think first is if you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish. So if you think, "oh yeah, none of this stuff is going to work for me," and we've heard it all, like, "oh, my market is different," or like, "my team won't do that," or like, "oh yeah, my clients will never go for that," or like, "my tenants are different. My properties are different." And like all of the reasons, what they're doing is they're like giving us all of the reasons why it's not going to work for them. And they're correct on every single reason. [00:06:39] If you say, "oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right. What we need to do is like change your mindset to believe like, "Hey, this can work for me and it can work in my market and it can work with my team and it can work with my clients and it might mean that I need to make some shifts. It's not just going to be, "oh, I believe it and now it's true." we need to make a couple shifts and it can be true, but if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible. [00:07:18] Jason: Okay, so some clients come to us. We have quite a few actually, that they don't believe in themselves. And one of the things-- this is a confession on my part-- one of the things that I failed with clients in the past, because I couldn't see this-- is that sometimes clients come to us and they're lacking hope. They don't have belief in themselves, and my mindset at the time was, "well just do the stuff and you'll see that it works". And the clients that would do it, they would get results and it would work, and some clients just wouldn't put in effort. They'd say they did, but they would blame us and like stuff like this, and they don't realize it takes like three months to get something really well dialed in. So they'd try it for like a couple days. Right. So I think one of the things that I've realized since from some of my coaches and mentors is that, we as coaches get to believe and provide hope and faith into our clients that are lacking it. [00:08:16] And so I think we're much better now at helping clients that lack that mindset and lack that belief and have limiting beliefs in themselves or even in like the strategies. If we give them enough belief, they still start to get results and that belief it rubs off on them. And so instead of blaming clients, I now take accountability more and say, "all right, I'm not giving them enough belief. I need to be more in their corner. I need to believe in them more." And I see them energetically change real time while on a Zoom call with them, like I just start feeding them belief like, "somebody else did this. You can do this too. They're not more special than you. They're not more charismatic. They're not better looking than you. They're not smarter than you. You know how to do property management. If they can do this stuff, you can do it too." I believe that I believe in them. And then they start to go, "wait, maybe he's right. Maybe I can do this." And then it starts to help their belief. [00:09:16] And so I think if you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you. They believe in you. They believe in you. Do you believe in me?  [00:09:27] Sarah: Yeah. Of course. I believe in you. [00:09:29] Jason: Sarah believes in me. I believe in her. Do you feel like I believe in you? Yeah. Yeah. So, and that creates momentum. That creates momentum. All right, let's go to the next one. Article two, autonomy from Bad Clients. "We assert our right to work with clients who respect and value our expertise. We shall not allow our business to be dominated by clients who undermine our values, ethics, or the standards of service we strive to provide." [00:09:58] So this goes along with our concept I, this of the cycle of suck and not taking on bad clients, which-- [00:10:04] Sarah: we should give this to our clients. And just like-- [00:10:06] Jason: have them sign it? Yeah.  [00:10:07] Sarah: This is your new declaration. We're doing it.  [00:10:10] Jason: ChatGPT is really good if you give it good data, like garbage in, garbage out. Right? I know. So, yeah, I gave it our whole client avatar document. I gave it our DoorGrowShow manifesto. I gave it our client-centric mission statement, and then they give it all that and this is what it came up with. So it's pretty cool. Pretty good. So yeah, I think this is involved with, our previous episodes where we talked about the cycle of suck or not taking on bad clients, but yeah, you deserve, you have the right to choose who you work with that value, your expertise. Why would you tolerate anything less? This is your business. You can build it however you want. You can build it full of a bunch of clients that don't value you, or you can build it full of clients that share your values, your ethics, your standards, want you to be able to do your best job and are willing to pay you for it. Anything else we should say about that?  [00:11:03] Sarah: I think we covered this a lot in our program, but what's really nice is to see when clients start to make that shift for themselves. Like we've had a few clients say like, and it was very clear to me that this is not the client that I wanted to work with. So like, sometimes they turn it down, sometimes they just know like, Hey, if I get the deal then, I'll consider taking it on if it seems to be a decent enough fit. But like, this is not my ideal client, so I'm really just not going to put a lot of time and energy into this because I can see like, this is just not what I'm looking for. [00:11:38] Jason: Autonomy from bad clients. I mean, really there's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients. I mean, that's a real strong thief, so you deserve freedom from that. Declare your independence from bad clients.  [00:11:54] All right, article number three, emancipation from inefficient processes. "We declare to free ourselves from inefficient, archaic, and time consuming processes. We will actively seek, implement, and embrace technology and systems that streamline our operations, enhance productivity, and allow us to serve our clients better." [00:12:16] Sarah: Like that. These are these shifts. We got to make some shifts. If you're expecting your business to just change overnight and without really changing anything in it, then it's like, the definition of insanity. Like we're doing the same thing over and over, but we're expecting different results.  [00:12:35] Jason: Yeah. We've got a lot of software tools and tech that we use with clients to facilitate them having a greater sense of freedom and emancipation from inefficient processes. So yeah, technology can help with that. Okay.  [00:12:52] Sarah: Well, so can a great team though. Yes. Not everything needs to be technology because I've seen property management companies that they're like," we just rely on technology," and like humans are very rarely involved and it just doesn't work the way that they want it to work.  [00:13:07] Jason: Systems, right? Systems. Yeah. Building systems. Okay.  [00:13:12] Article four, Roman numeral iv. Okay. Freedom of Experimentation. "We recognize our freedom to experiment with new approaches and marketing strategies. We will not be shackled by "this is how it's always been done," shall embrace the diverse, evolving landscape of our industry." So I think innovation is a big part of what we focus on at DoorGrow. We're always like adding new things and coming up with new ideas and pulling in the best ideas from our clients that are also working towards innovating and making a difference. And I think innovation comes from. Innovation. And so as our clients are doing these new ideas and these new things, they're seeing little ways to improve. because that's what entrepreneurs do. Like, Hey, we could do this, we could do that. And so, and us sitting on top with a bird's eye view of all these clients that are doing all of these things that we've helped to bring to the industry or to innovate, they're also helping us to make this better for everybody else as well. [00:14:16] And so this innovation incubation system that we've created at DoorGrow is pretty powerful, I think. So, I mean, just some of the ideas that some of our clients have presented at some of our conferences have been pretty awesome, so, yeah. All right. Yeah. Anything else about that?  [00:14:32] Sarah: I think the only other thing I would add is like, the way that we implement things in our business. because we just move so fast. Yeah. Like Jason and I, we don't like to waste time. We don't, him and haw, we're not like, oh, is this the right decision? Like, what do we do? I don't know. Let's take like four months and figure it out. We see something, we make a change and we're like, let's just do it. And if it's the wrong thing, then we'll undo it because we'll see it very quickly. But we take action really quickly. We just went through our annual planning and from just one year. Our business is completely different. Like our model is different, our coaching is different, like what we offer is different. [00:15:10] Totally. Like literally every piece of it is completely different. It was like we took our old business model and we just blew it up and we were like, Hey, how can we make this like 20 times better? Yeah. And we did it. And we did it all in less than one year. So it was so funny because when we were going through, we start off with wins, we're like, Hey, what wins do we have from the last year? And it was like, we had so many wins. Like, it's like hard to even think like, Hey, remember a year ago when our business was like this? So what's nice about that is we get to pull up like what the business looked like last year in the system. We were like, oh yeah, we totally forgot because it was so long ago to us. We're like, oh God, I like totally forgot it used to be like that. We used to do things like this, and these are all of the things that we changed or improved or added in order to make things that much better. And I think just being able to like add a new piece or do things a little bit differently is something that sometimes doesn't feel super comfortable for people because they're so worried about like, is this the right decision? [00:16:14] And it might not be. It might not be the right decision, but the inaction will keep you like tethered to the ground for a really long time. So if we just worry all the time like, oh, I don't want to do it because I just don't know if it's the right thing, you are never going to know if it's the right thing. Unfortunately, like no one makes a crystal ball yet. We don't have like the answer to predict the future at this point in time. So sometimes you just have to make the leap and guess and know that if you make the leap and it's the wrong one, we can always change it because your business should be this like ever evolving, ever changing thing. It shouldn't be like this stagnant old like pond, with like murky water that never gets any movement.  [00:17:00] Jason: So, I think one of the things that has facilitated the speed and the innovation and the experimentation, which is the Article four that we're talking about, is DoorGrow OS, like having this really strong planning system, which you mentioned we just did annual, quarterly, monthly, and weekly planning. We did it all in a week. It was like planning week. So this planning system, really, and not all technology is software. Not all technology is software. This is a piece of technology, which there is a software aspect to it, but really the technology of this is this system that of planning that we're able to create this cadence of momentum in the business that gets everyone on the team moving it forward. [00:17:51] It's probably the most important system we have in our business. It creates our culture, it creates our business, it creates our results. It creates an immense amount of speed. No one can keep up with the level of changes like Sarah's saying, if you worked with DoorGrow in the past, like three years ago, or even one year ago. Even one year ago. [00:18:10] Sarah: If you were a client with us like one year ago, yeah, you have no, is not, you have no idea what DoorGrow is now because it's just so different.  [00:18:18] Jason: This is like a newer. Way more improved company and clients that worked with us maybe five years ago or maybe even 10 years ago. They have no clue what DoorGrow is even about or what we do anymore. It's even one year ago transformed so much one year in what we do. It's like, so it's so very different. Totally.  [00:18:36] Sarah: One year ago we had one program that was it. Like we had one program and we had like a baby scale program with like a little bit in it. But it's really flourished. So now we have like three different three different programs and like so many things that are available that we just didn't, we didn't have at all before.  [00:18:57] Jason: Now you said we don't have a crystal ball, but if there was something that was as close as you could get to a crystal ball, it would be having a planning system like DoorGrow OS because we are creating the future. We map it out and there's a super high likelihood we're going to achieve it because of how it's all broken down. And it creates predictable results. Like we consistently are able to scale our revenue, scale our programs, and get the things done that we want to do at a really high pace. And we're able to create predictable results we can, we create and see the future. A of entrepreneurs have a vision of the future and they try and throw that vision to their team, like a grenade with a pin pulled. And the team are like, what? What? Okay. Sure. And then they teach. A lot of entrepreneurs don't have a good system like this, and so they teach their team to lose. [00:19:44] They're like, Hey, we're going to hit this great goal this month, and then they don't. And they're teaching their team to be comfortable with losing, and they get more and more comfortable with failure. Our team's pretty comfortable with winning, right? Yeah. Like if we don't hit an objective, something major happened. Like painful. Yeah. Something major happened. Yeah. And so our team are used to winning and we win early. We set goals and we hit them usually early. Is the goal. DoorGrowOS is one of the systems we in help clients install. This planning system better than EOS, better than traction, better than whatever else you've, like, experimented with. You'll get far bigger results from your team and you'll get a lot more momentum and money.  [00:20:26] All right, so let's go to article number five. Article five. Independence through Education and Collaboration. This is something we are a big part of that we believe in.  [00:20:37] "We commit to continual learning and collaboration, understanding that our strength lies in the collective wisdom of our community. We pledge to share insights, strategies, and experiences with our fellow property management entrepreneurs for the greater good of the industry." [00:20:54] A lot of people are worried about the competition and they don't want to share their ideas. Yes. And how small is their thinking?  [00:21:01] Sarah: Oh yeah, I know. There was somebody just yesterday that said, "oh my God, like, this is such an amazing program. And like I, I've been part of multiple coaching programs on the real estate side and this blows all of those out of the water. Obviously we're focused on property management, but he's like, this blows all of this out of the water." And he is like, "I just hope that my competitors don't find out about this and start using you guys because that would be really bad for me." And like, I get it. I do, I understand it. Because-- [00:21:30] Jason: this is a new client. [00:21:32] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, he's newer. They'll figure it out. Yeah. He's newer. So I get it because I used to think that too, like, oh God. Like it's like that we have to have like this abundance mindset, like a, there's always enough to go around. And b, we say it like a rising tide raises all ships. So if you are like, oh, I can't, like, I can't tell my secrets to my competitors. [00:21:55] I must keep everything like you, I'm not telling you anything that you do. I, and I used to be, I used to be like that. So I, I do understand it because I used to be like, I'm not telling anybody what I do. Like you do what you do and I'm justgoing to do what I do, and you don't need to worry about what I'm doing over here. And I've gotten out of that just because. My mindset has changed. And I realize there's so much more than like our brains can even fathom. If you think, hey, like I can make, a hundred thousand dollars a year and this is what my business can look like, there's more to be had and there's always more like to go around. If you're like, Hey, I know I can do a hundred thousand. I feel like I'm in the mindset where I could do two 50 or 500 or a million dollars a year. I can have multiple locations. Like I can just keep acquiring businesses. I can grow and grow. with a client this week that has 1300 doors. Let's pause there for a second, because a lot of times, 1300 doors is really hard to even get to, and most property managers don't even reach that level. And he's at 1300 doors and he goes, I haven't even like made a dent. Like I haven't, I'm just a drop in the bucket. Of where I want to go and where I want to be. Why is that? Because his mindset is open. Like he's opened his mind to realize there is, there's more if we think of it like this, like, hey, You are just like this tiny little pinpoint on the map because when we expand out, it's like, here's me and my business. [00:23:26] But if we expand out, you are in an entire like city. We expand out more. You're in an entire state. We expand out more. You're in an entire country. We expand out more like we're in an entire planet. If we just keep going and going, like, the universe is just so infinite. And if you're, sometimes it's just so hard to conceptualize because your brain is like this is what I'm doing and like, this is what I can see, touch, and feel around me. [00:23:53] But if you, once you realize like, Hey, there is always, there's always more. You're not going to worry about what your competitors do. Not at all. You're not even going to be concerned. Like, I don't really care what Johnny's doing down the street. He could do all of the same things that I do, and I'm just not worried about it because I know that there's so much abundance to go around that I'm, I don't care what he is doing. [00:24:17] Jason: So when your vision is small, you see the competition. When your vision's bigger, you see a lot more opportunity. And we really try and push the idea mindset wise and with our clients and here on the podcast, collaboration over competition, right? When we get our clients collaborating, like we just talked about before, innovation starts to happen, the whole industry can move forward. [00:24:42] Two thirds are self-managing, there's like 70% or so that are self-managing. There's no scarcity in this industry. If you feel like there's scarcity. And it's because you're playing a game that is not very winnable. You're probably doing the wrong things to try and grow. If it feels scarce, get with us and we'll help you see bigger opportunities. [00:25:02] So once we get clients in our system and they're focused on adding doors, and they start adding doors, and they start to do this in the blue ocean, instead of doing it in the red, ugly bloody water through SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services. They realize there's plenty of business. It's not hard to grow, and they become completely like, like, it's like not even paying attention to, or not even caring about their competition. Yeah. They're like, they're so busy adding doors and making money and trying to get their own stuff together to be able to handle the growth. [00:25:37] They're not even paying attention anymore to the competition.  [00:25:40] Sarah: Exactly. Like Mike with a 1300 doors seat, like no. Never ever at that, like at any point in our conversation did he say like, oh, but I'm like, I can't do this because this person. Never, like he, he's worried about what he's doing. He is like on this one track, and he is like, this is my mission and this is what I need to do and this is where I'm going. And I don't care about anything else. Like, I don't care about anything else around me when, like, they put blinders on the horse, right? We've got to put our blinders on and just run towards that goal as fast as we can. You don't care about what's going on over here or over here. You just get to the point where it's completely insignificant. [00:26:21] Even our smallest clients, once they get into momentum of growth and they see how easy growth can be, I mean, it takes work, but once they see that it's super doable and it's repeatable and they're adding doors like crazy, that goes away. Like I think there's always a competitive nature in our clients, and I like to leverage that in the beginning. So I, in some of my content in trainings, I'm like, Hey, if you want to crush your competition, do this or do it this way, or do this. And that brings out that competitive entrepreneurial side of themselves. But once they start getting into it, our challenge sometimes might be with some clients they like lose the drive because they start to see this is not so hard. [00:26:58] But hopefully they get inspired and excited to like, take things to the next level. Right. Okay.  [00:27:03] I don't think they so much lose drive. I think it's just that it's shifted. It's a like you versus me. Versus like, I'm just doing what I'm doing. It's me versus me now. And that, like, that's happened with me in my business a couple times where like I'm like, oh, it's me versus my competition. [00:27:21] Like it's me versus that guy down the street. It's me versus like every other like management company and my area. And it's not, it's only me versus me. I have to outdo what I did yesterday or last year or last month. Like it's it just changes because you start playing a game with yourself instead of trying to worry about like, I'm, I've got to beat you. [00:27:44] Jason: Well, your power and achievement. So this all makes a lot of sense, hearing how you think, but some of our clients are not, and like one of our clients like Mark and Brandon, they had gotten to a point, they'd been adding doors and then they got comfortable and they were like, and I think what happens is they had this big goal to like leave their day jobs and get a bunch of doors and they did that and then they were like, well, then they lost a little bit of steam. So I think what happens with a lot of entrepreneurs is we have this away motivator. Like we're trying to get away from something. We want to get away from a job we don't like, or we want to get away from scarcity or starving or whatever. Right? We have this, we're trying to run away from this saber tooth tiger that's chasing after us each month, and then we have to shift towards some sort of toward motivator. [00:28:31] So with them in my coaching call, I had to like help them identify what is? We talked about their why, which is their personal why, which is something that we get into deeply with clients and each of their, what they want. And how do we connect their why to the business now? Like what do they want more of or what do they want to move towards? And so that kind of lit them up again. And so we have to find that toward motivator. And we've gotten off track the education and collaboration, but, all right, but that's the idea. All right, so let's go to Article six vi. All right. Allegiance to our core values. "We affirm our allegiance to the core values that guide our business. We will strive to uphold integrity, transparency, excellence, and client centricity in all our operations, and we shall not waver in times of adversity." I love the shalls. All right, so we're big on core values. We help our clients define their core values. We even took a look at our individual values and then figured out what should they be for the business and took a fresh look. [00:29:41] And they were, we had a lot of alignment and we didn't really change much, I don't think we changed any, anything on the company core values.  [00:29:49] Sarah: No. We added like one, one sentence. Yeah. But I think mine, if I were to add one is just. Do whatever it takes. Right? Do whatever it takes. Like we have a do whatever it takes mindset and if that means you have to come out of your comfort zone, you come out of your comfort zone. That means you have to make phone calls? You make phone calls. Yeah. If that means you have to, do whatever. It's like ethically, of course. But if you have to do things that don't. Seem fun or like, these are not my normal job duties. [00:30:20] Well, that's okay. Like, we're going to, we're going to do it because that's what we need in the business.  [00:30:26] Jason: So I think it's important for property managers to be really clear on their values. So, so you, as an entrepreneur, if you're listening to this, you need to be very clear on your values. Not like 10 values or 20 values or infinite values. You need to figure out what are your, like top three maybe four values that if everybody on your team believed these, they would be great team members. They would fit you. And that's something we help clients work on. But I think it's super important to have values in the business because it that's the how you go about doing everything in the business. [00:31:02] And if you're worried about how your team members are going to do things, it's because they don't share your values. You can work all day on the whats. You can define every process and try to micromanage, but you cannot control how you need people that fit your culture. You cannot create that in them. You have to find the right people that have the right culture and the right values. Values come from mom and dad, God, religion, whatever, right? DNA, I don't know, genetics, but people have their values somewhat hardwired, and you're not going to really move the needle on their values. So you got to find people that fit them  [00:31:36] All right article, what are we up to? Six. Seven. Seven, okay. Article seven. All right. Pursuit of holistic success. [00:31:47] "We vow to pursue not just financial success. But the overall wellbeing and fulfillment in our personal and professional lives. We will commit to creating balance that nurtures our personal growth relationships and contributions to society." [00:32:03] All right. It's pretty good. So a holistic success. I mean, this really is I've never, I don't know, like. I used to like tag myself on Facebook when I would create a post, that'd say, holistic business coach or something like this. Because that's the idea. Holistic means it encompasses our personal life, our business, and that's why in our podcast intro it says " and our mission at DoorGrow is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses." So we have a strong holistic approach.  [00:32:34] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. I was it Ed Mylet that said it at Funnel Hacking Live last year? It might have been Ed Mylet. I'm going to have to look it up. Sorry Ed, if it was not you. So I think he said if the game for you is making money, if you're just in this to make money and that's all you care about, you are not going to make very much of it. You just won't because that's the only thing you're focused on and you don't care about anything else. But if instead, oh, it might have been Russell Brunson. Oh God, I owe one of them an apology.  [00:33:03] Jason: We heard it. We heard it at Funnel Hacking Live Conference. It was Funnel Hacking live at conference. So I can tell you that for sure. So, and it was either Ed Millet or Russell Brunson. I can tell you that too. They probably both said something similar.  [00:33:13] Sarah: So credit to both. But if you're only focused on making money, you're not going to make very much of it. You won't be very successful. However, if your focus is on helping people. Now you're going to be successful and you'll make a whole bunch of money. So if money is the thing that you're after, it's just going to feel like really hard. [00:33:34] It's going to be really, really draining for you. But if we're focused on like, Hey, how can I, primarily, first and foremost, how can I help people? That's the thing that's going to unlock all of the money for you.  [00:33:47] Jason: This is where your business mission becomes client-centric. This is where it becomes outward focused and our personal why should be outward focused as well, right? This is where we start to have that impact, but everybody wants to have some sort of different impact. We're all unique, so I think it's important to discover that. We talk about the four reasons, like moving towards more greater fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support is why we have a business as motivators, and if you're moving towards that and you're committed to creating a balance in your business and personal life and personal growth and relationships and contributions to society, right, then you're going to have a much more profitable business. You're going to enjoy it more. Your team are going to be more inspired to work for you and be part of this vision and this mission. [00:34:39] So I like this article. It's a good one. That's the last one. So this ends this way. "Let this declaration serve as a compass that guides our actions, decisions, and collaborations with resolve and unity. Let us forge a path that transforms not just our own lives, but the entire property management industry for the betterment of the communities we serve. Signed your name and all fellow DoorGrow Hackers." All right. So I like that. Yeah, we're using that. That's pretty good. We're going to keep that. Maybe we'll post that somewhere. Yeah. All right. And that's basically it. Anything else we should add? I mean, we want, we all want more freedom and there's probably something that you feel like right now is holding you back. [00:35:22] You don't feel free. You wake up in the morning and maybe you don't feel like you are excited to go to work or excited to take that next phone call or excited to do property management. You may not feel a sense of freedom right now. You may not even think it's possible in that industry, so I promise you it is absolutely possible. We've helped lots of clients do this, and it can happen a lot faster than you realize as well. So you can have freedom and you can have freedom from bad clients. You can have freedom from bad deals. You can have freedom from bad phone calls. You can have freedom from bad team members. You can have freedom from all the bad stuff that you want to have freedom from. [00:36:02] So, all right, what should people do? Let's give them a call to action.  [00:36:07] Sarah: Well, I think the easiest thing to do is work with a great coach. Might be us, might be somebody else. I'm a bit biased.  [00:36:16] Jason: It should be us and you should reach out to DoorGrow. Go to DoorGrow.com and join our Facebook group, which you can get to at... [00:36:25] Sarah: I don't know.  [00:36:25] Jason: DoorGrowClub.com. doorgrowclub.com. Join our Facebook group community, and this will start getting you connected and indoctrinated. We're going to convince you to believe in yourself and we're going to convince you to also believe in DoorGrow. And then we're going to help you win through DoorGrow and we're going to change your life. This is what we do at DoorGrow. So, If you want some help. Otherwise, join our Facebook group and eventually reach out once you realize that you want our help. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:36:57] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:37:24] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

DoorGrow has changed a lot in the last few years. We've added tons of new features and perks for our clients as well as new coaches… including Sarah Hull, COO and property management growth coach. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull to learn more about Sarah's role at DoorGrow, operations, and how you can scale your property management company. You'll Learn... [02:47] Sarah's Property Management Experience [05:19] Improving Operations and Cutting your Staffing Costs in Half [15:38] Why You Need an Operator in Your Business [22:02] Personality Types and Their Roles in a Business [27:24] The Clue that You Need a Better Team Tweetables “You can't build the right team around the wrong person.” “Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day-to-day is something you don't enjoy doing every day.” “Is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful?” “The most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. [00:00:18] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker.  [00:00:36] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate gateway to high trust, real estate deals, relationships, and residual income At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their business businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host along with Sarah here, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:22] All right, so I'm already messing up the intro as I'm reading it because I'm looking and seeing her here in the screen, and I find her highly distracting. So, we were talking before we talked last night, we're like, what are we going to talk about on the podcast? And and then this morning, I said, what are we going to talk about? She says, I don't know, we only talked for like five minutes about last night, and we didn't come to a conclusion. So, I said, let's talk about you. Can I intro you and brag about you first? Sure, go ahead. So I wanted, I thought we would talk about Sarah today because she's probably a lot more interesting certainly to look at than myself and maybe to listen to. So I thought we would talk about her. So, I'll tell you a little bit about Sarah. So what's really amazing about Sarah and what I really like about her is that her wrists are really tiny.  [00:02:10] Sarah: That's really, it is true. It's not not true.  [00:02:14] Jason: My hands are not enormous. Dude hands. I buy child bracelets for her. I'm just kidding. All right, so  [00:02:19] Sarah: I have a five inch wrist. So like I can take, I can actually wrap my my pinky and my thumbs and touch. That's about, and they overlap. So it's about this big.  [00:02:31] Jason: Oh yeah. I can do the pinky as well. That's, yeah. Very small.  [00:02:34] Sarah: I train a lot on the rest. Get them that way.  [00:02:37] Jason: I do actually like that. I think it's a cute trait. All right. But I'm joking. What, what I really want to say is, so what's interesting to the audience is that Sarah has managed her own property management business. She has exited that. She sold it. Great job, by the way. Mm-hmm. And she managed a decent amount. At that size, most property managers have a team, like a full team, like five to 10 people I've seen. And usually at the stage, these companies are very unprofitable. Like this is the worst profit margin stage they've been at in their business. And they get stuck. And I call this area the second sand trap. They can't afford to really like expand or do more marketing or, and they're just not able to take a lot out of the business and, and their profits are all getting eaten up by staffing costs. Now Sarah had one part-time person, boots on the ground part-time and managed her business remotely part-time. Part-time, yeah. She was bored. Very. And people are like, well, these must have been really nice properties. These were C class properties? Duplexes, small plexes. [00:03:52] Sarah: Yes. We had a good mix of single family, duplex, triplex, and then I think we had maybe two that were like 10 units, which was kind of big for my area, but  [00:04:03] Jason: Okay. Yeah. And so, what was your profit margin?  [00:04:08] Sarah: Over 60%. Okay. 60% was a not great amount.  [00:04:12] Jason: Okay, so a lot of you dream of that, right? And you think, how's that even possible? It's possible because one, Sarah is very efficient. She's a very good operator. That's why she is now the COO of DoorGrow. And everything in the business is better as a result of having her in the business. Everything's improved. But I wanted to qualify Sarah as a badass. Like she's really good at what she does, and she wasn't really connected to the property management industry. She just did what made sense to her. And she didn't really want to be talking to tenants and she didn't really want to be dealing with talking to the owners very often, and she just set up her business in a way that was very efficient. And so we'll be talking about that in the priorities training. So, Sarah also has come into DoorGrow and she runs all of our operations. She runs I everything that I've taught her that I like I've developed DoorGrow os and how we plan our cadence. She just knows it to the point where she can teach it. And she learned it all very quickly. And now she's the one that coaches clients how we did our hiring. She like has improved on that and built it out even more and teaches clients how we do hiring and so we help clients get all these systems in place to become more profitable and more efficient. Sarah does all that. So as an example, why don't you share the story of maybe Jade and Andrew. I think that's a great story. Because they were at a similar size of a business as you had had.  [00:05:46] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, they had about 188 units and they had 11 team members total, like 11. So really, really overstaffed. And some of them were in the office and some of them were VAs and we just really had to like dive in because they said, well, like, what are they doing? And they kind of gave me like a surface answer. Like, oh, well this person does this and they do this. And I said, yeah, but like, what are they really doing? Because with 188 leases, like, let's just pretend that. We had all hundred and 88 due in the same month with, which isn't going to be the case. We're going to, spread that over the course of multiple months. But if we had all hundred 88, due even in one month, I still can't figure out what, two or three leasing agents are doing with 40 hours a week every single week. So we are just really going through and trying to figure out like, who's doing what. And sometimes I find that either no one's doing something or two people are doing something. And if two people are doing it, just know that it's not getting done.  [00:06:56] Jason: That's a 17 to one ratio. I just did the math. [00:06:58] So that's, that's for each, for every 17 doors, they have a team member.  [00:07:04] Sarah: It was really bad. So we just kind of went through with them and figured out like, what is everybody actually doing? What should everybody be doing? And then how many people is it really actually going to take? And they they had a lot of meetings and discussions with each other and then like we kind of met a couple times throughout this process and they came to the conclusion that they needed to let go of about half of their team. And they did. And then once they did that, all of a sudden they're like, Hey, we're like profitable and we're making money. But when we first started talking with them, they said like, actually, we're losing money every month. Like we can't pay ourselves. We can't take anything and we're losing money. Like this business is costing me money to run every single month. Yeah, little uncomfortable situation to be in, especially because property management isn't, it's not easy, it's not a cake walk. You're not, like doing nothing all day. So if you're in a business like this, And it is complicated and it is challenging. Then the least you should be able to do is like get yourself a decent profit margin so that you can make sure that you're paying yourself and that your business isn't struggling to keep up with. [00:08:14] Jason: Drive this home. Sarah did one call with them and the result of that one call was, what? What are all the results?  [00:08:21] Sarah: Well, on the one call, they realized, I have no idea what most of the people are actually doing. Like, they gave me the answer and I'm like, yeah, but how do you spend 40 hours a week doing that thing? [00:08:32] Yeah. And from there they realized like, we need to make major, major changes to our team. And most of these people are going to have to go. On the second call, that's when they actually decided to take action. Okay. And they got rid of, so. [00:08:47] Jason: The second call, which is she did this one call after that. [00:08:51] Mm-hmm. They fired half their team, half their team then, and as a result, their profit margin, which was not very good, which was negative, losing money, was then what? What did they get to? I didn't get their profit margin. Okay. It was significantly improved. Oh, no. Significantly improved.  [00:09:09] Sarah: I know they weren't losing money anymore. [00:09:10] Jason: Yeah. Yay. All right. We'll have to get some stats on that cause I want to brag during the priorities training about that. All right. So, Sarah has been able to dramatically improve our clients' businesses and lives. One of the things she's also helped a lot of clients with is completely restructuring their teams. Mm-hmm. They just did two of them last week. Okay. Why don't you explain Yeah. Kind of what you've done.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Well, all right, so one of them had about 360 doors and there were 1, 2, 3, 7 people on the team total. Which to some of you might sound like, yeah, that makes sense. And to me it's just, I'm like, there's too many people. And it was kind of like the same thing where everyone is saying like, oh, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, I'm so busy, and I'm looking at things going, I just don't understand what actually is is happening. Like, there's a lot of work that has to be done. It's like busy work. It's, it's like grunt work, but it's not, super helpful. It's just the things that are going to keep you afloat and that's like a bare minimum. So what we ended up doing is this client had one BDM, three property managers and then three assistants that were basically like assistant property managers. And we, he's like, I don't know if a lot of them are like good fits. [00:10:37] And I just, I, I really don't know what they're saying they're doing because they all tell me like, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, but what's actually happening? So when we kind of like dove into things, we realized like, you are overstaffed and very similar situation. He wasn't able to really take a lot out of the business because there was not a lot left. [00:10:57] Jason: Who is this? Kevin. Okay, so Kevin had three property managers. Mm-hmm. Each property manager and they were portfolio style. And each property manager had their own assistant. Yep. Because they were not, for some reason able to get done what they needed done. [00:11:13] And Kevin himself was having to do lots of things, put out lots of fires, and be involved in micromanaging everybody. And when I first shadowed, and--  [00:11:22] Sarah: he wasn't micromanaging anybody, there was nobody leading the team.  [00:11:25] Jason: Okay. Kevin wasn't leading the team then? Nope. So what, Kevin? No one was leading the team. [00:11:30] Sarah: Team was just kind of doing whatever they thought was the right thing to do.  [00:11:33] Jason: All right. Well, Kevin seemed pretty stressed out and what, yeah, and Kevin didn't have any personal support at all. Like nobody was helping Kevin with anything. He didn't even have his own assistant, but he got assistance for three people on the team that weren't very productive or efficient. So, what's the plan with Kevin? [00:11:53] Sarah: Yeah. So, half of those people are going too. So we decided the BDM is excellent, so we're going to keep the, the bdm. He is taking one of the people who was a property manager and she actually tests okay as a property manager on our assessment. But she tests better as an operator. She is like, is a better fit for kind of this operator position. So we're going to shift her into the operator role. We're going to keep one of the property managers to do all of everything. And then one VA who's going to be like an assistant property manager.  [00:12:29] Jason: Where'd the BDM come from? [00:12:30] Sarah: The BDM was already there. Oh, okay. He was one of the seven originals. Got it. So he had three property managers, three assistants, and one bdm. Those were the seven.  [00:12:39] Jason: Got it. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Who's the other one you said there were two? Josh. Josh? Yeah. What's the deal with Josh? [00:12:46] Sarah: Josh had about 300 doors and his whole team was kind of like a hodgepodge of people. Not that he was super overstaffed, but just people weren't in the right seats. And when you have the right people, but you're not putting them to the best like use, then you kind of still run into issues. And Josh, same thing, no operator. There was no operator on the team and largely he was kind of handling operations and he is like, I don't mind doing it. I like doing it, but I don't want to be the only one doing it, and I don't want it to always fall on me. Mm. So what we're doing with him is he had a VA that he had let go, like right in the middle of our talks. And he said, Hey, I'm hiring a new va. I said, great, let's like test the new VA to see if they're going to be a good fit. And then he decided, like we shifted his team around a couple of times and like through the assessments realized and he had talked with you. This was the one that we took who he thought was going to be the property manager and then put her in the BDM role instead. Mm-hmm. Because he is like, well, I don't know how to like, make everything work. So now he's he's going to have like a whole different team structure. Not that he had to let anybody go. He wasn't like crazy overstaffed. It's just he still wasn't super profitable because he didn't have the right people in the right spots. And he didn't have anyone doing the operations. Mm. You can get as big as you'd like, but if you don't have someone handling the operations, and this is that back end piece, this is not front end stuff, like everyone always, this is what we start with, is we start doing front end stuff. Because when you start your business, you are doing the front end stuff, you're doing the leasing, and you're doing the showings, and you're talking to tenants, and you're handling the maintenance.  [00:14:37] This is all the front end stuff. This is the stuff that absolutely must be done just to make sure that the business runs. When your business reaches a certain size, you now need to have someone doing the backend stuff. Mm-hmm. And if you're not having anyone doing like the backend stuff, which is like, hey, making sure that everyone on the team is following the same direction and everybody is contributing to the vision of the CEO and running things like your daily huddles and your strategic planning and doing hiring and firing and getting job descriptions, doing team reviews like. For those of you that are hearing all of this and you're going, blah, that sounds horrible, then it means you're probably not the operator. And at some point, if you're not an operator, it's okay. Jason's not an operator, like he doesn't like that. It's not his brain functions. So you need the counterpart whose brain does function like that, and that would be me. [00:15:29] Jason: I like to build out the systems and I must have been mis mixing up Josh's team. I think you did team with Kevin, so I think you did. Yeah, I remember Josh. So the most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator. That's very true. And because visionary entrepreneurs do not like the details. I like building out the systems. I like creating DoorGrow, hiring and DoorGrow os and these systems. But I don't want to run them in my own business. I want someone else to run them because running those things is not as fun and it actually, the results are not as good because especially with planning, if I run all the planning, it's not as good. Bad, and so bad. [00:16:09] Sarah: There was one week where I couldn't run the planning meeting because I was on a flight and I said, can you just run the planning meeting? And he did it. And I came back and I was like, I don't know what happened in here, but this is bad.  [00:16:20] Jason: It was okay. I did just fine. It was bad. So the issue-- just fine. The issue is it's not fun for me to run the meetings, but also when it comes to like actual strategic planning, we as the visionary or as the main leader of the business, or even as the operator, we have to be the last to speak. Otherwise, we influence things. And if I run the meeting, it's really hard for me not to say certain things and not to steer things a certain way. [00:16:48] And so I don't get as valid of feedback from the team. I don't get as valid of information. So what happens is as visionaries, a lot of times we think we have all the best ideas. And it's not generally true, right? Our team members are closer and more connected to what's actually happening on the ground, and they can see things we can't see, and they have ideas that we don't have, and they can share these things with us, and we can get their buy-in into the plan if they help create it. [00:17:16] But when we are just top down pushing everything, because we think we're the visionary, and this is one reason I really don't like EOS. One of the big fundamental flaws in EOS is they intentionally overinflate the ego of the visionary. The visionary has all the best ideas and they're so important, and that feeds the ego and it helps them to sell integrators, which in their accountability chart, they place the visionary at the top, and then they have a line going down. And this is just a fancy name for a stupid org chart that doesn't make sense, but you have the visionary connected to the operator. Which they call an integrator. And the integrator then is connected to everyone else on the team. This is one of the most flawed structures I've ever seen, and nobody runs their business this way because integrators or operators are not the people that should be over sales and marketing generally. They're not the people that, because they have a very different personality type, they're opposite. And they want to conserve and they want to make sure money is handled well and they don't want to take risks and they don't want to, like, this is more stuff for maybe your head of sales and marketing or maybe your BDM or whoever you want to place in your executive team. They're really usually equals, but they have to report their stats. Everybody reports their stats to the operator. And so the challenge is we have to have a system in which the team can all give feedback and give information first, and it isn't top down. It's really bottom up. And this is how we designed DoorGrow Os and why people that come from the EOS system get a much bigger result and a bigger yield from their team and much more profitability than they were able to get under u s or traction or rocket fuel, right? [00:19:00] These are some of the things that Sarah's able to do with some of our clients. And I have to say, it's amazing to be able to have somebody that I can trust to not just understand all this stuff. Because she, she's super sharp but also to be able to teach it to clients and to be able to help clients work through all of this and trust that it's just going to be handled and that's really what we want in a great member of our team or in a business partner. [00:19:25] Or with anybody that we work with, we want people that we can trust to just handle stuff and to do it well. Sarah does it really well, so, what else should we say about you?  [00:19:36] Sarah: I think that's just how my brain works. Like every job that I've ever worked before I owned my own business, I would be there for a little bit and it was super clear to me like, Hey, if we make these changes or if we do these things differently, or if we just shift this a little bit, it's going to be better and here's how it's going to be better and why. [00:19:55] And it's so frustrating for me when you know, like I was at multiple insurance companies. Before like I kind of got into property management and I on all of them, I was like, oh, we could just do it like this. Well, we don't do it like that. I'm like, I know you don't do it like that, but you should do it like that and here's why. And when it's frustrating for me where I'm like, oh, you could just make these changes and you could do things like this. And this is just how I think my, my brain is just wired to work. because I can like look at the overall picture of things and I'm like, well, why do we do things like this? You could do it like this instead and we should change this and this should be different. And that's really good. This is really great. Keep this, but change this little thing. And then these are the results that you'll have. And at all of the insurance companies I had worked with prior, I had like made some suggestions and they're like, oh no, we're not going to do that. We can't do that, we can't do that. So I think looking back, it's funny for me because I'm like, oh well yeah, I was kind of, almost like destined to like get in and, and run my own business because then if I think, Hey, we should do things like this because of this, then I can just do them. I don't have to go and ask like, oh, hey, can I really think this would help your business? Like, we can do it. And they're like, no.  [00:21:08] So now, like, just looking back, I'm just able to kind of pick it apart and see things that sometimes other people don't see because you're just, you're too close to it. Mm. And, and it's it's personal for people too. They're like, oh, this is my business and I'm really proud of it and this, I worked so hard and I know, like, I know what goes into running a business. Like I know it, blood, sweat, and tears doesn't even begin to cover it. I understand that. And that being said, I think that's one of the reasons why you should be looking to improve it. So if you can make a few small changes, like your, your ego might have a little bit of a bruise, right? But is it worth the trade off? Like, is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful? So for sometimes, sometimes people are like, no. I don't want that. I just want to know that I have all the answers and I'm right all the time, and that's okay. [00:22:02] Jason: All right, so what's unique about Sarah, and some of you might identify with her a little bit. So in Myers-Brigg, she's probably an INTJ.  [00:22:13] Sarah: Well, not probably, I'm like the epitome of INTJ. [00:22:16] Jason: So INTJ. Is very intuitive. They are introverted. They're a thinker and they're judging. Now INTJs are because they're super intuitive. They're called the strategist because they're logical and they figure out solutions to things, but what's I think really in interesting, and I think there's women's intuition and she's very intuitive. She just knows things without knowing why it's true. Mm, yeah. Like she's like, there's a problem over here in the, in our business or there's a problem over here and I don't know why, but it, something's not right. So. And what's frustrating is I will say no. I don't see it. Like everything's fine. And she's always right. She loves when I say, you were right. She loves it a little too much by the way. But she's usually right. And so I've learned to trust her intuition tuition and sometimes I think our unconscious. Has a lot of information and can process a lot more than our conscious mind can and picks up on little details and things. Mm-hmm. And has worked some things out and just knows things and it bubbles up to the surface of our conscious mind and we're like, Hey, something's off here. And she gets these flashes of intuition that when there's like some sort of threat and things like this as well. So I've learned to trust your intuition because it's proven accurate multiple times. And I've always considered myself fairly intuitive in the business, but her intuition is kind of next level. And so I think being able to trust your gut and having a partner in the business or some, or an operator that you can trust, their gut can have a significant impact as well. [00:23:52] So I'm a bit opposite of her. I'm an ENTP. So we both are the intuitive, which is the n and we're both thinkers. Thinkers. But. I am a bit more extroverted probably. Even though I really feel like an introvert a lot of times, but I like need to be around some people occasionally. [00:24:12] Sarah: Well, I know, but you usually like will kind of, you'll you'll break in that arena before I do. You're like, we like I just want to get out of the house and be around people and I'm like, oh, I don't.  [00:24:22] Jason: Yeah. And then I'm definitely more, we think very differently. Like very differently. Mm-hmm. I'm perceiving and you're judging and perceiving means my desk is chaos right now. If you could see it. And it means I love pulling in ideas from lots of different places. I have a crazy variety of books on the bookshelf over here. I've like, I pull in things from a lot of places to formulate my thinking. Then I'm able to formulate some new ideas and I'm very creative that way. And that's part of, I think why we have such great IP at DoorGrow. I get a lot of coaching and a lot of input from different sources and we improve those ideas and we have, I think, the best ideas and innovate the quickest in the coaching space in this industry period, maybe out of a lot of coaching businesses. We consult and share ideas with other coaches and coaching businesses as well that we're in Masterminds with. I don't want to do all the implementation. I don't want to make sure everything gets done. And so I'll be like, Hey, here's this great idea, but Sarah also brings really great ideas to the table. She's like, Hey, I had this idea. And then she'll just rapidly implement, like she just gets it done. She's like, Hey, let's do this premium Mastermind event and have people, we'll rent out an Airbnb and we'll get people to go and we'll do this and it'll be awesome. And I'm like okay. And she just makes it happen. Sells all the tickets to it, gets everything organized. I just showed up and got to look cool and she made it all happen. [00:25:50] He's like, what are we doing at this event?  [00:25:52] I showed up, I'm like, so what are we doing?  [00:25:54] He's like, what are we even doing? I'm like, just-- [00:25:56] I'm like, okay, Sarah's leading this. So that was our last DoorGrow Live too. Like Mar-- Yes, that's true-- my assistant who did a lot of planning and Sarah like, handled some of the details and ideas and I was just like, all right, I'm just here. I'm the tech guy. [00:26:11] Sarah: Just when we call your name, get to the stage, just go up there.  [00:26:14] Jason: Yeah. When, when it's your turn, Jason, you go speak and talk about something and I did. So that's kind of how we work together. So, what else should we say about Sarah? She's still working on getting her last name changed because it was Hall and she's switching it to Hull. [00:26:31] Sarah: Well, right now, I really don't know what it is. Yeah. Truly. I don't know because the Social Security office has me as Hull.  [00:26:39] Jason: So you got to change. Yeah. To my last name.  [00:26:41] Sarah: Yeah. But the DMV is like, so super booked out.  [00:26:46] Jason: So not, not in Texas yet. Your license doesn't say it yet.  [00:26:50] Sarah: No, no. Not my license doesn't say it yet, but my social security card does. [00:26:56] Jason: So, and your social media, I think you've changed most of it. I changed it before. Long before this. Yeah. So, but Hall's her ex-husband's last name, so yeah. So I'm trying to like, he's trying to buy a vow. I'm trying to buy that vow. I think I paid for that vow. What's on your neck and on your finger. And I think I've, I think I've accomplished that. I don't know. I don't know. So, cool. And I don't know what else, what else should we say?  [00:27:24] So Sarah's one of the key coaches in our business here at DoorGrow. Our mission is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses, and she does that like, she helps to do that. She runs a lot of the group coaching calls when I'm focused on other things in the business, which is awesome that I have somebody I can trust to do that at a really high level and to do it really well and clients really appreciate her test.  [00:27:49] Sarah: When you're busy, I run the whole scale call. Yes, every single week. [00:27:54] Jason: Well, you do. You go beyond that. You also run some, some of the other calls that I-- Yeah, for sure. I used to run every call. You can run every call. So, yeah, which is awesome. All right, well I think, for those of you that you want to experience some of the magic of Sarah and improve your operations, you're struggling with things, your profit margin is not what you wish it would be, and you think you need more kPIs and micromanaging and to like squeeze more juice out of your team. That's probably, there might be a little bit of truth to that, but generally you'd probably need a better team or you need to optimize your team and that's one of the most profitable changes you should make first before you start messing with micromanagement, KPIs, more pressure, stuff like that. You need to make sure first you have the right team, and here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. [00:29:05] It's pretty obvious if you look at it from that perspective. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. Can't build the right team around the wrong person. So, we can help you make sure first, who are you, we can help you figure that out, and what do you really enjoy? And we have processes for that. And then we can start to build the right team around you so that you are supported and you get to move closer and closer to having more fulfillment in your day-to-day. More freedom, more contribution, and more support. And then your team members will be able to have those four things and you'll get probably three times the output from those team members. And that's the biggest expense and that will give you the biggest profit in your business if you can get these systems in place that we can help install. With DoorGrow OS and DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow Flow and DoorGrow, CRM and DoorGrow. What am I missing? Flow hiring, crm, you said all of software. Those are our software. Okay, cool. Which we call our super system. So we're going to be doing this event on the 22nd, talking about priorities and how to increase your profit margin and how to decrease operational costs. We hope to see you there and or watch the replay if you see this later. Make sure to reach out to DoorGrow if you would like to experience some Sarah Magic. And until next time to our mutual growth, everyone.  [00:30:26] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

“Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves.”Sarah, one of the founders of Birth Made Mindful, joins Meagan on the podcast today to talk about how to mindfully approach motherhood in the way that is best for you, your body, your baby, and your family. She also shares her Cesarean and two VBAC stories!Sarah and her sisters created the Made Mindful platform to help women find their own innate power from within. All VBAC Link listeners will receive 30% off any of their courses by using the code “vbaclink” at checkout on www.birthmademindful.com.Additional LinksBirth Made Mindful WebsiteSarah's YouTubeSarah's TikTokHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsReceive 20% off on Needed Products The VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hey mommas have you ever looked at the back of your prenatal vitamin and wondered if you are truly getting everything you need? I know I didn't when I was pregnant. Well today I wanted to share with you the #1 prenatal I suggest to all my doula clients, friends, family, and YOU women of strength. It's by a company called Needed. I honestly don't think I was the only one that didn't really understand just how important certain nutrients were for myself or or my growing baby. And that is why i love needed. They have gone above and beyond to create solid products not only that have the key nutrients but also have the optimal amount. Don't be overwhelmed picking a prenatal. Check out all Needes products, including their prenatals, pre/pro biotics, immune support and more at thisisneeded.com enjoy 20% off by using code VBAC20Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Wednesday and we have another great episode for you. Normally we have VBAC stories, but today we are going to be chatting about a lot of topics actually. We have our friend, Sarah. She is actually a VBAC mom and she has been on the podcast before so welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me today. Meagan: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to have this discussion and this episode because it's something that truly we need to remember. I love sharing all of the VBAC stories of course. That's what this podcast is about, but it's also really good to get education and empowerment through other episodes. Review of the WeekWe are going to get into this episode after I share the Review of the Week. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about our friend, Sarah. This review is by spicyhotcurrie. I love that name. That's fun. It says, “The best education for all pregnant mamas.” I just love that so much because really, I mean, Sarah would you agree? At this podcast, we obviously talk about VBAC stories and how to empower people to make the best choices after Cesareans, but this really could be a podcast for all pregnant moms. Wouldn't you agree?Sarah: Absolutely. Meagan: Yes. We share so many tips. It's something that I wish I had when I was pregnant and preparing for my VBAC. Even if I didn't know if I wanted a VBAC, this would be a great podcast to listen to and see what options were out there and then even what led to Cesareans so I could learn how to avoid them. I love that topic. She says, “After one unmedicated hospital birth and one medicated hospital birth, my third birth ended in a physically and emotionally traumatic emergency Cesarean. The VBAC Link Podcast started soon after. I listened to them for over a year before getting pregnant. This podcast has made me laugh and cry and given me so much knowledge I didn't have even after three births and working in the postpartum unit at the hospital. This podcast has made me so excited for my VBAC in November. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”This was back in 2020 so spicyhotcurrie, if you have your story to share, I would love to know. Contact us at info@thevbaclink.com. If you haven't left a review yet, we would love your review always anywhere you want to leave a review– Apple Podcasts, Google, or you can email us. Wherever it may be, we would love your review. Sarah From Made MindfulMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome. Sarah: I'm just giddy to talk to you about birth today. Meagan: I am giddy to have you here to talk about birth. I don't want to share your story. I want to let you share your story, but I do want to tell everybody who you are. You are an amazing person, an amazing individual, and you're a mom of course. Of course, you're a mama of three now. Sarah: Three boys. Meagan: Yes, a boy mama. You're a birth coach, an educational coach, a doula as well which you guys, I'm just going to point out that Utah is amazing. I'm just saying that if you're in Utah and you're listening, you're spoiled. We've got some good doulas here. Let's see what else. You're the founder of Made Mindful, right?Sarah: That's right. Meagan: Made Mindful. Okay. Tell us more. Tell us more about that. Sarah: Made Mindful came out of all of our experiences, me and my two sisters, with the different births that we have experienced together. Meagan: It's Carly–Sarah: Carly and Christina. Meagan: Christina, yes. Carly and Christina. Sarah: That's right. Meagan: I love that you're all sisters. That's so cool.Sarah: We have our website, Birth Made Mindful. We want to encourage women and families to empower themselves with education, positivity, and most importantly, just believe that they have the strength within themselves to create the birth of their dreams. Meagan: Absolutely. I love that. It's so hard sometimes because it's so overwhelming. There's so much going on and we're getting so many opinions coming from all of the other places to know and you hear things like, “I wanted to do that but my body couldn't and this but I couldn't, and this but I couldn't,” so then we start doubting ourselves like, “Can I? Can I do that? Is that possible?” Don't you feel like that is happening all over the place? Sarah: It is. It's just an overwhelming amount of information that we have to sort through. I think that also adds confusion. When we can look inside ourselves, we can find out really what matters most important to our families and to us as mothers and blossoming mothers if we are first-timers. Knowing what our options are, knowing some of the medical events that could take place with birth, and then being able to be in tune with ourselves and our bodies to know how to proceed. Meagan: Absolutely. You have experienced very different experiences. Do you want to share just a little bit more about your experiences and what truly led you here?Sarah: I would love to. My first son was five years ago, his birth. My water broke prematurely. I wasn't in labor. After about 40 hours at the hospital, we had a Cesarean section. It wasn't an emergency at that time, but he was sunny-side up so I just wasn't having meaningful dilation. His Cesarean was necessary, but after that experience, I started looking back and just thinking, “I want to have a vaginal birth for my next birth.” I just didn't want to be in pain and have the recovery and some of the problems that stem from abdominal surgery right after birth. So I prepared a lot. I listened to your podcast. I just researched as much as I could when I was pregnant with my second son. It was right around COVID. His due date was March 20th, 2020 so about three days before his due date, my obstetrician let me know that she could no longer support me in a vaginal delivery. Meagan: Did she tell you why?Sarah: I share that entire story in Episode 132 so if you haven't had a chance to listen, it was just a remarkable story. I think it was mainly because of COVID. The hospital had updated their policies that all of the women in the queue for delivery that week and that month would either need to have an early induction or a repeat C-section and that they weren't going to be able to support VBACs. But because I armed myself with knowledge, I had gotten myself a doula, I just felt like that wasn't the route I wanted to go. I wanted to allow my body at least the chance for my first VBAC. I know that a lot of women even after having multiple Cesareans will attempt a VBAC but your chances of getting support in the medical system are a lot stronger the first time. So I knew that this was my window. I was actually able to find a midwife who took me on. This is just a couple of days before he is born. I ended up having a beautiful, redemptive VBAC at a birthing center. It wasn't short labor. He was actually also in a sunny-side-up position so it was about 30 hours. My wonderful, supportive midwife confirmed, “If you would have been in a hospital, they would have done another C-section in the amount of time it took you to dilate again with being sunny-side up and all of those twists and turns of our labor.” But we did have a VBAC and it was amazing. The feelings, the emotions, all of the energy that I felt, I literally wasn't tired for three days after his birth because all of those chemicals were appropriately working within my body. I was able to breastfeed and latch in a much easier way with that child so I knew that I wanted to start sharing my story and offer encouragement to other women. So in between his birth and then the birth of my next son which was about two years later is when my sisters and I put our knowledge together and created digital courses. We created affirmation cards and just decided that we were going to try to start sharing our message with all of our sisters and our community so that they could have great experiences in their birth. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: For my third son, we actually delivered with that same midwife but I opted for a home birth. The reason why I wanted to have him at home was mainly because of tracking contractions. There's always that question, “When do I go to the hospital? Am I too early? Am I too late?” If you show up and you're only 3 or 4 centimeters dilated, are you then a burden on your medical staff? And they're starting the clock if you're in the hospital. So I thought, “I wonder if I was just at home if my body would relax enough that there wouldn't be any halting from my body.” I just said, “It doesn't matter how long it takes. I'm prepared to labor as long as this baby needs.” I also had made peace with the fact that if we needed to transfer to a hospital, I would not feel like a failure. I would approach that with the understanding that I was going to the hospital and utilizing the tools and the help that I might need if we did need a transfer because a lot of people are afraid of what a home birth means if there's a transfer. Most of the time, it's not an emergency if there's a transfer that's needed. Meagan: Yeah. Really, most of the time it's due to a hangup and there are resources at a hospital that aren't at home anymore. We've exhausted our resources. Maybe there is a little bit of Pitocin that is needed. I say needed, but it is something that could help and they've exhausted breast stimulation with the breast pump or maybe it's been a really, really long labor and we're just tired, and that epidural is something that really can help to actually have that final outcome that we were looking for. It's just going to be in a different place. But it's rarely an emergency and it's okay. It is okay to transfer. It's okay to make that choice. No failing or giving up. They don't go together. There's no failing. Sarah: Exactly. Meagan: Just because there's a change of plans doesn't mean there is failure involved. Sarah: Yeah. That terminology is so tricky when people consider a transfer from your home as a failure but most women just choose to transfer to the hospital before they plan to push their baby out. So his birth was remarkable. It was a few days after his due date again. I had started feeling a little bit anxious about when he would come. I decided that I needed to release all of that. I went swimming and I just told him, “I know that you're safe, but I also want you to come as soon as you're ready.” My labor started that night. I could sense that the contractions were ramping up, but I wanted to rest as much as possible. I didn't want to have the mindset that I needed to walk around or be upright because with my prior births, it had taken me a full day and I didn't want to feel exhausted myself. So at about 1:00 in the morning, I went into the guest room so I wasn't waking up my husband and I just tried to sleep in between my contractions and it was successful. I was able to listen to some meditations and to find that quiet comfort within my bed. With sunrise, the contractions started ramping up and after about one hour of steady contractions, I thought, “It's time to wake up my husband. It's time to let him know that things might be started.” So after observing me for a few minutes, he decided that we should call the midwife right there. I definitely didn't think that I was ready because I had really only been in what I would consider active labor for an hour, but when our midwife came to my home, I was 8 centimeters dilated and they were ready to fill up the birth pool and have me hope right in. It was just peaceful and quiet. My midwife and her team almost seemed like they were just working in synchrony in the background. There wasn't any coaching. There wasn't any interruption to what I was experiencing and having my husband and I there. We did send our toddlers off to Grandma's house so that we could just have the house to ourselves. But it was amazing. I got in the birth tub and my water broke probably 20 minutes after that. And then after about 20 minutes of pushing, I was able to deliver him and just have that same concoction of hormones that just make you feel so elated, so happy, so grateful for your baby being born that immediately, any of those feelings of pain that come with pushing have gone and just being able to snuggle him there in my own home and be tucked in our own bed just minutes after. I felt like a home birth really was the birth of my dreams. I felt like a queen and it is what made me want to help encourage women to create the environment that they want so that they know that they are the leader of their birth. Yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it.Meagan: I want to take a quick moment to hear about our partner Needed. The leading women's health supplement brand recommend by nutritionally trained practitioners. Needed was founded by two incredible mommas who were navigating their fertility journey. They were shocked to realize that 97% of women take prenatal vitamins, yet 95% of us are nutrient deficient. Is that not eye opening or what? Getting the right prenatal vitamin is super important. So how do we know what one is best. While most perinatal supplements include the bare minimum of the nutrients women and babies need, Needed has all of your needs covered from your prenatal vitamin, to pregnancy specific pre/pro biotic, immune lactation and nausea support, as well as supplements that help us with our protein needs, balancing our blood sugar, and helps with postpartum healing. Needed's Complete Plan delivers unparallel nourishment for every phase. Weather you are thinking of conceiving, pregnant, postpartum, or deeper into your mommy years like me, these supplements are amazing. I take the prenatal collagen protein every single day, and absolutely love it. Learn more about Neededs complete line of perinatal and women's health suppliants at thisisneeded.com use code VBAC20 for 20% off that is V-B-A-C-20 at thisisneeded.comMeagan: I really do love it. I really, really do. It's just so amazing. And it connects with me so well because of the same thing. After my second Cesarean, I learned more about doulas. The doula work just called to me. I was like, “This is what I want to do. I want to help people know that they can have different experiences.” One of the hardest things during our pregnancy journey is the preparation and knowing what preparation to do. There are so many things out there. You've prepared differently each time especially because you are preparing for different scenarios with different locations and stuff but are there any tips that you would have for birth prep in general and self-empowerment? How do you truly believe in your ability to do what you want to do and then create the environment to do that?Sarah: With my first son, I prepared with HypnoBirthing. I wanted to be able to find that meditative state so that I could move forward with an unmedicated birth but one of the disservices that the course instructor did for me was she said, “We're not going to study Cesareans because you're not going to have a C-section. We don't need to start focusing on that because it won't be an option.” So looking back, I would advise women to actually get as educated as they can with the medical system and know about inductions and know about options for inducing labor both natural and medical options regarding induction. But I also think one element that is most missing in the system is for our doctors or our providers to help us know that we have the power within us. We're not taught about the physiological process of birth so we don't understand that there are hormones within us and messages that our baby will signal to our body that it's time to start the process. Right? Knowing that our bodies are made to go through this and that everything is intended to stretch, I think that we can eliminate a lot of the fear that we have if we only believe that we will be successful with an epidural or with vacuum assistance. Just knowing that our bodies are made to birth our babies whatever size they come, whatever date they choose to arrive, that our bodies have the answers within them. I also think it's important to realize that the perception of pain is also internal. One thing that I have been learning a lot about is that our body only feels pain because of the messages that our brain then starts to comprehend. So if we begin to feel a contraction and our brain's message is, “This is wrong. This is bad. This has to stop immediately,” all of a sudden, we create an environment of tension and stress within us. This is the opposite feeling that we need in order for our baby to continue to dilate and for the baby to be born. So what I try to instruct women and families to focus on is that the contraction is the method by which the baby is going to continue to descend and it's the correct feeling that we should be having at the time. Now, I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's absolutely pain-free, but understanding that the waves are the only way for our uterus to contract and expel the baby then will give us power inside. We also have different pain-blocking receptors within our body. So as our contractions rise with each stage of labor as they start to get more intense through transition and then as we start to feel that natural urge to push, we have also been experiencing the counteracting force within ourselves of being able to block that pain. Then when our baby is born, having the skin-to-skin time completely erases all of those feelings that we had. So knowing that our bodies are perfectly designed to accommodate everything that we will experience gives us so much confidence that we can then proceed and we are able to labor as long as it takes. We are able to continue to breathe. One thing I like to think about as I'm experiencing a contraction, and one of the reasons I think that my labor was so much faster, was because every time I had a contraction, I would try to breathe as if I was allowing his head to push into my toes. I wasn't pushing, right? You're not supposed to push until you feel the urge to push, but I was allowing myself to think open thoughts so that my body could open and be in that state for cervical change but I was also trying to focus on the down and out of the baby being born.  When we have a contraction and we're not grounded or we're not prepared for those feelings or those really strong sensations, it's a lot harder for our bodies to then continue to progress in a way that is unhindered and allows us to feel safe and secure and that everything is a correct sensation. In both of my vaginal deliveries, I actually did not feel like transition was a stage of torment or suffering for myself. I know a lot of women say that they can start to feel when they are in transition. For me, that always came in the pushing element. When I felt that pressure, that's when I decided, “I really need to get grounded here because this is happening.” So for my third birth, I knew that the more that I can focus and feel what was happening inside of me and utilize those feelings to help push the baby, the sooner I can come through this situation. Right? Sometimes people talk about a hard scenario and they say, “The only way out is through.” That's another thing for labor where you have to go through all of those feelings. Meagan: Yeah and those feelings can be really intimidating, right? Really intimidating so through our prep, prepare for those feelings. Prepare for the way to change up your breath because there are those moments sometimes where it's like, “I don't know if I can do this,” and our shoulders raise and our faces tense. If we can breathe through that, breath is so incredibly powerful. It's so powerful. But if we can breathe through that, it can really, truly help. Just our breath alone and then like you were saying, how our mind relates to pain if we can change our mindset– this is totally not birth related but I am really big into cold water therapy like Wim Hof and all of the things. My husband and I converted our deep freezer into a cold plunge in our backyard and I will tell you, when I am in that, it's freezing. At 40 degrees, it's really cold, but when my mind connects to, “It is cold. It is cold. It is cold,” my whole body just trembles and I'm freezing. I'm telling myself, “It's so freezing.” I'm trying to work through it, but I can't. I'm just shaking. Then when I breathe and I'm like, “Okay. Calm down. You're okay. You're right here. You're strong,” and I start coming out of that space of fear and exactly what's happening if that makes sense– I'm telling myself that I am freezing. I am cold. I mean, I am cold but I'm also okay and I'm also going to get through this. It's crazy. I just did it with some friends and they witnessed it. They were like, “Wow. That's crazy.” I audibly have to say it out loud. I can't even just do it internally. They are like, “Wow. That is really cool.” It's the same with labor and with birth and all of these things. Sarah: Knowing that you are exactly where you need to be is what then will give your body confidence to do what it needs to do. I think that's why birth affirmations can be so positive because as we speak out loud, our brain believes what we say. So if you are in labor and you are saying, “I can't. I'm in pain. Make it stop,” all of a sudden your entire body starts to feel that tension and starts to feel that panic. But if we can use affirmations to say, “I am safe. I am secure. I am strong,” saying these things will then solidify to our bodies that that is how we feel. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to talk about changing plans and things like that. If we have a birth that is going another way which is maybe undesired, maybe a Cesarean or a repeat Cesarean. Maybe we're at home and we are transferring to the hospital or you wanted to go unmedicated and you're getting an epidural, I wanted to talk about the word failure and how impactful that word can be and how we have to offer ourselves grace. Do you have anything to say about that? Sarah: Absolutely. I think the first thing to do is to understand that when you share a birth story that didn't have the outcome of your desire, a lot of people will say, “At least there's a healthy baby. At least there's a healthy mom.” While those things are most important and unfortunately, the opposite can happen at birth. It's devastating. We also have to know that our mindset can control how we feel about an experience. So just as I shared that I had made peace knowing that a transfer to the hospital would not equal that I'm a failure, knowing that you have done everything that is within your power to achieve your main goal will help you then to feel like you've had the most beautiful birth. Sometimes I think that it's more about just knowing that you're respected and knowing that your wishes were granted during birth, that you had a birth partner or a support team that listened to you, and that made you feel like the goddess that you are in birth. Meagan: And heard. Sarah: And heard. Sometimes what we want is we want that epidural or we want that induction and we have reasons within ourselves knowing why we want the birth that we want. When we can create an environment within ourselves that then fosters that, that's when our birth feels like it's unstoppable. That's when we know that we have achieved everything that we set out to do. I think one important way to prepare in that regard is to do what I call a fear release. When we're thinking about all of the options that can go wrong, we tend to stop that thought immediately because we don't want to think about a worst-case scenario. We don't want to fill our minds or our bodies with that negativity but if we can approach it before it happens and we can actually say, “What is my plan? If my water breaks before my labor has started, what is my plan? If dilation isn't happening at a good rate, what are my options? Can I get a Foley bulb? Is Cervadil an option while I am laboring?” we can actually walk down the path of each of our fears and we will start to see that we have the same amount of knowledge essentially that our providers have in what paths would be available. For me, I was writing everything down and every single thing that I would feel prior to birth. If I was feeling frustrated, if I was feeling scared, if I was feeling nervous about adding another child, “How am I going to take care of all of their needs?” all of those things are real and can feel overwhelming. If we don't have the support externally, then we have to find where we stand within ourselves. Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves and that we have listened to the promptings that come and that we follow what makes us feel like we are driving the car that will get us to the destination of our baby's birth. Meagan: Yes. So in saying that, we have to act on the promptings that we feel and sometimes it may be something different than what's being suggested. For a long time in birth, I didn't realize that I could say no or could say, “I would like to do this,” or “Talk to me about this,” and have that discussion and that active conversation about what I was feeling. With my second C-section, I didn't want to go down to the OR. I didn't want to have a repeat Cesarean and I didn't feel like I could say much more than, “Okay, let's go.” So I want to talk about that. We have these feelings and then how do we act on them? Obviously finding that supportive provider and having that supportive team, but then how do we find the courage within ourselves to say, “Hold on. I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but I would like to talk about this,” or “My heart is telling me this. Can we talk about that?”Sarah: I think the first step that we take is knowing our rights. Just like you said, if we have a provider that is suggesting an intervention. Maybe it's a position that doesn't feel comfortable to our bodies. We have to know that we are allowed to say no and that when informed consent is a part of our birth plan, we can always ask them what the options are. So if someone comes in and says, “Your labor hasn't progressed for 4 hours. You don't have anymore dilation. It's time for Pitocin,” we can say, “What are my options? What might happen if I do not choose to have Pitocin at this time? Is it something that we can look into 2 hours from now?” Because I have had a hospital birth that ended in a C-section and then my other two births outside of a hospital, I recognize that it's not always as easy as we might think if our providers are–Meagan: Pushing back. Sarah: If they're pushing back and if they have a protocol that they have to follow based upon their hospital. Those are put in place to protect them as providers with liability and also to protect mothers and babies, right? No doctor would want to take a risk for a mother and a baby but when we feel like the request that we have should be honored and that we can ask those questions to then receive a response that we are able to then come together and work as a team. Knowing that everybody who is there really does want the best for you and your baby, knowing that you might offend someone by letting them know that, “Hey, I don't want this to happen at this time,” but that you have the right to do that and that if needed, you can actually switch providers. For me, that was very scary. Meagan: A couple of days before. Sarah: It was a stressful event to have to be finding someone. I went to a few other obstetricians and they said, “You're far too late. You're too far along in this pregnancy to be coming to me.” That's when I decided that even if having a VBAC outside of the hospital presented an added element of risk because I might have to transfer to a hospital if something went awry, I knew that was the route that I needed to take in order to achieve what I felt like was my right to attempt a VBAC. I love the work that you're doing because so many women, as they are deciding if they should have a C-section or if they can try for a VBAC, find that there are roadblocks that are in our way. I don't want to say all of the time, but a lot of the time, our providers want the very best for us, but some of their suggestions might not be what helps us achieve a VBAC. One example I can think of is an early induction. Right? We know that the highest chance for a VBAC is for spontaneous, vaginal delivery to occur and yet we are also under pressure for our babies to be delivered by 40 weeks. Meagan: Or 39 even sometimes. Sarah: Or 39. And just as a woman's menstrual cycle is not always a 5-day event or our cycles aren't always the same amount of days– Meagan: 14 days apart, yeah. Sarah: Exactly, that maybe you knew exactly the date you conceived or you had IVF so you knew exactly when your egg was implanted, it's very hard to know if that 40-week date is accurate. Both of my VBAC babies were born at 40 weeks and 3 days. To me, that's interesting because I think, “Maybe my body is regulated enough that that is just when my babies are developed.” You know? So knowing that if a provider is telling us, “You have to have your baby by 40 weeks,” we can say, “What are my options if I choose? Can I take a non-stress test after the 40-week mark to find out how my amniotic fluid is doing and to make sure my baby is healthy and strong?” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: And if you do find that there are complications, then there is no regret when you have the induction at that time. Meagan: Right. Yep. Sarah: Or when you seek medical assistance or when you elect to have that repeat Cesarean because you knew that your wishes were honored and that you were able to be number one. Meagan: An active participant of your birth. Being an active participant in your birth is so important. Like she said, if you choose an elective Cesarean, that's okay because you were a part of that decision making or if you choose to be induced or if you choose to keep going or whatever it may be, being an active participant in your birth can truly impact the way you reflect in your postpartum experience.Last but not least, I would love to talk about the postpartum too. I think we would both agree that a lot of the times– I don't want to say this with everybody preparing to give birth, but I feel like it's very much so in the VBAC world, we are so focused on how to get a VBAC, a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, and how to have this end result that we forget about what comes after the birth whether it's a vaginal birth or Cesarean. We are so focused on how to get this birth and this outcome that we forget what happens in that last period. Sarah: Exactly because our bodies know how to birth a baby without the knowledge that we possess. Even after we gain all of this knowledge, it really is our body's job and our baby's job to be born. But the postpartum period then falls all the way back on the families. So if you're not prepared, if you don't understand what will be happening physically within your body and how long it takes to heal, you could find yourself underwater at that time. Your baby requires food every few hours so if you're attempting breastfeeding and you're having struggles with breastfeeding, all of a sudden it feels like the postpartum period is harder than the birth for a lot of women. We have a separate course for the postpartum period. We call it “The Fourth Trimester”. In it, we dive deep into sleep both for parents and for infants. We talk about breastfeeding or feeding your baby if you elect formula. We go into postpartum depression and anxiety and really just try to help women understand that the time to prepare for the postpartum period is during pregnancy. It's not just the 38th week of pregnancy because your baby might come at that time. I remember with my first son, my hospital bag wasn't even packed when my water broke because it was in that 38th week and I thought I still had a few more to go. Everybody said that first-time moms always go overdue. So even knowing that the La Leche League offers free consults over the phone at any time of the night or day, knowing that alone is just a resource that we can use. I have to tell you for my third birth, I thought, “Okay. We will just have this set. Everything is going to go swimmingly,” and my little baby boy just was not latching correctly which causes so much pain as you're trying to nurse but it also caused one of my breasts to be engorged in a way that he wasn't extracting the milk but I was still experiencing those letdowns. So after a few days of just struggling– and I had met with the hospital lactation consultant– and feeling like, “I don't have the resources I need,” I met with women from the La Leche League multiple times and finally, one of the pieces of advice that she gave us was the turning for my son. She mentioned, “When you sit down to feed your baby, you're not going to think of it as a feeding session. You are going to try latching.” She actually gave me a number. She said, “I want you to try 20 times to latch.” I thought, “That is way more than I have been trying.” I usually start to feel defeated after the 5th or 6th time of trying to get this all to work. Then she said, “Your baby might be angry. Your baby might be hungry, so feed them an ounce of milk from the bottle or spoon feed however you want to feed them, and then try again 20 times on the other side.” I cannot tell you what a difference this made knowing that I was going to sit down and try 40 times to latch my baby. After the 8th attempt, he latched and we never had problems again. All that it took was for me to change my mindset as far as what I expected. Right? So even though I was an experienced mom, I had breastfed before, my little baby is just learning this for the first time. He's awfully small. He has the reflexes to suck, but he needs to be trained just as much as I do. We had to come together and work through that. I don't think that I could have made it happen without the support of the La Leche League. A lot of the time I think, “There are always excuses,” when we're in the postpartum period when we're tired or we don't have a store open when we need something and Walmart is closed at 11:00 and all of a sudden, you're having a fight with your partner in the middle of the night because you're not prepared so knowing just the amount of supplies that you're going to need and how long you're going to bleed after birth, all of these little details can be really overwhelming. Thank heavens that we have more people talking about it. We have companies that are responding to these needs. I think that we have more individuals offering support at this time where they say, “Oh, I”m just going to buy you that gift basket that has all of the support that you'll need.” Having a friend that can bring over their old nursing bras that they're not using anymore so that you're just ready to go with the supplies that you need, can make your postpartum period feel like you are off to a great start. Meagan: Absolutely. There was something you had mentioned too, and this goes for birth, where you were like, “I never had problems before. I nursed my other babies just fine and this baby's brand new and a new experience.” That goes with all things in life and with birth and postpartum. Just because we birthed this way or this is how our birth went or this is how or breastfeeding journey or this is how my postpartum went, doesn't always mean that we shouldn't prepare for the next baby and the next birth and the next postpartum. It doesn't always go exactly the same. Then also, remember these babies. Yes. Is it instinctual? Yes. They know where to get milk but again, their mouths are different. Everything is different so it can change so having patience and getting to that spot where you get to your nursing station, you take a deep breath in, you are taking a deep breath out, and you try 40 times. You are trying and not letting number three get so infuriating because your baby is going to feel that too. Your baby is going to feel that stress. It's the same thing in birth where if we have someone bring in some stressful feelings, we're going to all react to that. Our bodies react so remember to find your breath, find what you need to do, and have the patience to walk through that.Sarah: The reason we named our company Birth Made Mindful was because the word mindful in and of itself just means that you are taking in everything around you and you are allowing yourself to feel without judgment what is happening. It's the hardest thing whether you are in birth or whether you are having a challenging experience as a mother, just know that you have enough time to pause, you have enough time to think, and to really find out what answer feels right to you. What is your heart telling you? What is your mind telling you? Can those two things come together in a way that then you can make a decision that will empower you? I've been writing the book for our company, “Birth Made Mindful”, and it has just been an amazing process of going even a level deeper than just a digital course to explain to women that they have the strength within and that each of us is powerful. We are champions. I love the phrase “birth warrior” but I don't want anybody to feel like they have to have their sword and their shield as they go into birth. We want it to be more of a collective feeling where all of us are working together so that we can have an experience that will then launch us into motherhood or maybe it's our second child so launching us into having multiple children in a way that will really give us vibrancy. It gives us energy. It gives us meaning in motherhood and the support that we know that we can do it. It really does come from having an understanding of where we are at inside and allowing anything that doesn't feel congruent, that we can work through those things and we can then find out where our true passions lie and make sure that we honor ourselves and honor our desires. Meagan: Our intuition. Oh, well tell everybody where they can find more about your courses and your blogs and hopefully soon, your book. Sarah: Yes! We are at birthmademindful.com and most of our social media handles are at Made Mindful. That way we can cover Motherhood Made Mindful as well as we continue to grow our course offerings and continue to try to help our community find joy in birth and motherhood. That is our mission to have every family feel like they are armed with knowledge and that they have all of the support that they need to take on the most important event of their lives. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit more about your other birth story and sharing these tips with the listeners. It really is so important to prepare our mind, our body, and our soul for all of the experiences. Obviously, we know that things happen sometimes and there are going to be unexpected things that come but even through preparing and being in that space and taking that time to say, “Wait, what is happening?” just processing it in the moment and having the question be asked can help you as well for after. I love that you talked about doing the fear release. We talk about doing the fear release too. Sometimes we don't realize that we have traumas because we don't look at it as a super traumatic experience but then as we walk through our birth and things, we realize, “Oh, that might be a traumatic thing I need to process. That's a fear,” or “Maybe it's not traumatic but it's a fear of mine. It's enough to hang me up.” So it's important to walk through these situations as well. I think it's awesome that you offer the two courses. Postpartum. Obviously, I love VBAC and I love the prep but there's so much to postpartum that is just forgotten about so I think it's really important that we talk more about that so thank you so much. Sarah: Absolutely. We want your listeners to get a discount when they come and buy your courses. So they enter VBACLINK into any of our courses, then they'll get 30% off of both of those courses if they want to come to check it out. Meagan: Wow. That is amazing. Sarah: We just hope to continue to provide education, knowledge, and support to families. Like I said, birth is a transformative event. It's the day that your baby is born but it's also the day that a mother is born. In this day and age, we need all of the help that we can get. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today I'm talking to Christine, a Humane Marketing Circle member and Creative Start-Up Coach about passion and happiness. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Christine Michaelis, author of the book "The Happiness Formula." We explore the intriguing question of why some business owners find greater happiness in their endeavors than others. Throughout our discussion, we uncover a treasure trove of insights, examining the transformative power of habits that promote happiness, the art of setting achievable goals that foster fulfillment rather than disappointment, and the joy derived from being part of a vibrant community. Drawing from her extensive research and expertise, Christine offers practical strategies and illuminating anecdotes that are sure to inspire and motivate listeners to unlock their own path to happiness in business and beyond. So tune in as we embark on this captivating exploration of what it takes to be a truly happy and fulfilled business owner. In this episode, Christine and I share a conversation on: Why some business owners are happier than others Habits that make us happier How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed The happiness that comes from being in community with others Her new book 'The Happiness Formula' And much more Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:32] Hi, friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion, so we're back to the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you probably don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:07] That's the number one and the word page. This one page marketing plan comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a, you know, six step plan here, do this. But it's more like prompting you with questions that help you reflect on your different piece. [00:03:29] On today's show, I'm talking to Christine, uh, Michael's, uh, humane Marketing Circle, member and creative startup coach about passion and happiness. But before I tell you a little bit more about Christine and today's show, I'd like to tell you about our upcoming storytelling, like We're Human Workshop that takes place on June 7th. [00:03:52] As you may have noticed, I have this series of workshops, live workshops, with the theme of being [00:04:00] human. Something being human, right? And the idea is to look at these different concepts. Marketing strategies, et cetera, from the perspective of humane marketing and marketing like we're human. So this, uh, time we're looking at storytelling and rather than looking at storytelling from this, Hero's perspective, right? [00:04:22] Hint, hero's journey. We're actually looking at it from being human. So how are we going to tell stories that feel like we're human? Uh, I think we are kind of tired of the, uh, heroes, uh, stories and we'd watch, rather hear from a human level. Connect on this human level and in order to get ideal clients, we know that we, uh, need to bring more of us to our marketing, more of us to our story, but. [00:04:55] How, that's the question, right? In which stories are relevant? [00:05:00] Well, that's exactly what we're discussing in this 90 minute live workshop on June 7th, and I'm so thrilled that Hillary Ria, uh, my co-host will help you find your five word life story. And I'm really super excited about this because I. I'm so happy to have found a storytelling expert that agrees with me that, you know, the, the typical heroes journey story type is kind of outdated. [00:05:29] We need to bring more of us to our story, and that's what we're gonna do in this live workshop. So it starts from within. That's actually what we're doing. Instead of trying to fit our story into the story arc, the hero's journey arc we're coming from within. And there's still a, you know, framework. [00:05:47] There's still structure, but it really comes from within. So please have a look at the details at humane.marketing/storytelling and uh, join us for only [00:06:00] $27 for this confidence boosting workshop. Cuz once you. Own your story. That's when you're really going out there and resonating with your ideal clients. [00:06:09] Right? Of course, if you're already a Humane Marketing Circle member, you can intend all our workshops for free. Okay, back to today's episode. Let me tell you a bit more about Christine. Christine Marketing and creative startup coach, founder of the Creative Startup Academy, author of multiple books, public speaker, podcast and workshop facilitator. [00:06:33] She has worked in marketing and advertising for more than 12 years before she decided to start her own business supporting startups. When her hands-on approach, she has helped hundreds of individuals validate their. Business idea and create a successful startup, as well as working with small businesses, supporting them, getting clarity and marketing their business. [00:06:56] She sees entrepreneurship as a way of life and [00:07:00] loves the passion that comes from working in that industry. In our conversation today, we talked about why some business owners are happier than others and how to help, uh, those who are not always happy to get to more happiness. Some habits that make us happier. [00:07:20] How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed. The happiness that comes from being in community with others. Her new book, the Happiness Formula, and so much more. So let's dive in and be happy with Christine McKays. [00:07:40] Hi Christine. Thanks so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast. I look forward to this conversation about happiness and bliss. [00:07:48] Christine: Yes, thank you. I'm very excited to share Rod It and um, Hopefully make some people happy. At least smile, [00:07:56] Sarah: at least. We're definitely smiling. Uh, I just said [00:08:00] offline, I spent most of my day in nature. [00:08:02] We saw these little ducklings and you know, it's finally spring. Yeah, I'm definitely happy today. So, but let's, let's start with you like, you know, it's, um, I'm basically featuring this episode under the P of Passion, which is the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And so when you said that you're coming out with a book about happiness, I'm like, well, happiness, passion, you know, it's all these good feelings that we want to have more of. [00:08:31] So tell us yeah. What you are passionate about and, and then also obviously then we go into the, the whole definition of happiness and how do we get more happy as autism. [00:08:43] Christine: Yes. Um, well, thank you. First, uh, for having me. I'm, I'm very excited. Um, I know we've done so many things together and I know there will be so many more collaborations coming out of that. [00:08:56] Uh, and I think you can't find a more passionate person [00:09:00] about, uh, what they do. I know everyone is, but I really explode with passion when I, when I talk about, um, What I do and, and I just love it. Uh, and always I say I'm an accidental entrepreneur because I never wanted my own business. Um, but it had just happened and I absolutely love it. [00:09:19] And I only basically work with people because I work with entrepreneurs, um, that are really passionate about what they're doing. And that's lovely. That wraps off on me. And it really gives you energy, I think, um, when you, uh, yeah, when you work with people that are passionate. So what am I passionate about? [00:09:39] Work. Mm-hmm. In this case, my own company. Um, if we are looking from a business perspective, I'm really someone who loves getting things done and crossing things off the list. I, I really love, I'm, I'm like kind of, I'm really passionate about having this and I used to not anymore, uh, have to-do lists for [00:10:00] personal life. [00:10:01] Okay, do the sports, uh, go out for, for a walk, wash the dishes and stuff. Now I don't do that anymore, and I'm learning more and more to also sometimes do nothing, uh, which is really difficult for me because I love to finish things also. That's not very strange. But I love to finish a shampoo bottle or to, to finish a product or something. [00:10:24] I have to, that's fine with me. Um, I know what you [00:10:27] Sarah: mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's kind of like that's. Oh, okay. We finished this, you know, and it's like, oh, we can move on to the next thing. [00:10:35] Christine: Yeah. And challenges work really well for me. If you give me a 30 day challenge, I will do all 30 days. Um, But what I'm really passionate about is as well, um, is making people smile. [00:10:47] I think really people always say, oh, what's your purpose in life and stuff? And this sounds very cheesy now, but I, I love making people happy because it makes me really happy and it's all interconnected and it's lots of science behind it [00:11:00] as well. Um, however, that really, that may, that, that's what I'm passionate about, spreading some happiness in, in swan's life. [00:11:09] Hmm. Yeah. [00:11:10] Yeah. [00:11:11] Sarah: So, so let's talk about this happiness. Um, what, what I was thinking about is like, you know, how come what makes some entrepreneurs, business people happier than others? And, and then how can we help those who are not currently happy in their business or in their life? But since we're on a business podcast, we can talk about business. [00:11:37] Um, Yeah. How can we help them to find back to being happy? [00:11:44] Christine: I think the very first thing, I mean there's also official definitions of happiness and stuff. The very first thing is obviously to know and understand, um, which probably people do that. Happiness means different things to different people. Um, however, there's also science [00:12:00] that shows what doesn't make happy. [00:12:01] Um, but we are gonna focus, of course, also on the things that. Will make people happy and also, um, business owners. So, um, I, I would say you would need to define first, what does happiness mean to you? What does success mean to you? Because therefore, for, um, entrepreneurs are often interlinked, um, let's say saying, okay, if I have success, That makes me happy and that makes also the business sustainable. [00:12:28] But what does that mean? It does not necessarily mean, uh, a lot of money. It might mean I help X amount of people with what I do, or I have an impact on society, on an, the environment, whatever. Uh, a specific, uh, success definition. I think everyone, uh, as a business owner should have. I, uh, again, I appreciate that we all have to pay the bills and that is a business. [00:12:54] Um, so it, um, it's thinking about the money, but not in, in the connection with [00:13:00] happiness really. So understanding what does happiness mean to you and your, in your business, um, and what does success mean to you? It's the very, very first thing. And then if we go into a few really practical things and steps into what, um, science has shown, what really works, um, and what helps with happiness and increasing your happiness, Is, um, investing into experiences in instead of materialistic things. [00:13:29] So because they create lasting memories and give you the sense of personal growth as well, and that overall can contribute, um, to a deeper understanding and satisfaction and fulfillment. And, um, basically when you do that, you prioritize time. Over resources. You prioritized, uh, your time and resource in a way that really align with your values as well and your personal interests. [00:13:58] So in business [00:14:00] or in personal life as well. And again, this can give you this sense of fulfillment, fulfillment and feeds into the purpose that you might not have defined yet for yourself because it's a very difficult question. What's your purpose like? Mm-hmm. I just talked to someone else who said, I don't believe in that stuff. [00:14:17] I don't think we have any purpose. And I was like, okay. Uh, that's okay. Everyone has their own view. Um, but really you can, you can do that. And investing into experiences. You also invest in relationships with other people. You create memories together. And, um, you also share that, that success with, uh, other ones. [00:14:36] And in that case, um, you can share successes, for example, that you had or the company had with the team, with co-founders. With, uh, freelancers that you, that you work with, if you outsource something with suppliers, with clients, you can share this. If, if the client had a success, you should celebrate that. [00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Not because, oh, I'm so great. That was me, but really because you're happy for that person. [00:15:00] Mm-hmm. And it will make you happy. So that would be the next experiences. [00:15:04] Sarah: I really like that because I just come back, uh, from, from an experience. So, so basically we have a mastermind, uh, where we meet every, uh, every month and every month that somebody else hosts the, the get together. [00:15:18] And so today, I hosted and so I just, I said, instead of staying at our place, let's go down to the forest because I'm. Lucky enough to live next to a forest, next to, um, a little water, uh, stream as well. And so, um, you know, it takes time though to take time of our, out of our busy lives, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, only five out of the 10 people could make it, but those who made it, we just appreciated it so much. [00:15:47] And then, like I said, we saw the ducklings, we created memories together, right? And, and yeah, we just. Felt really happy. Where had we stayed in our office and, you know, [00:16:00] maybe, yeah. Made more money or, you know, had another client that it wouldn't have given us the same feeling of happiness. I'm sure. Yes. It's, yeah. [00:16:11] It's really those times where you step out of the. Normal kind of, um, things that, that you feel these moments of awe and, and experience what you, what you said. [00:16:23] Christine: Another thing that, and also with others. I mean with others, exactly. You, you can go by yourself and you have a great experiences, but if you share this moment with others, the shared moment again as another. [00:16:32] Yeah. Um, yeah. So another [00:16:34] Sarah: layer of happiness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, um, point you make in the book that contributes to happiness is about building. Habits. Um, so talk to us about these habits. Why do habits, one could say, well, habits make it more boring. So, so how do habits make us more happy? [00:16:57] Christine: Yes. So building habits is [00:17:00] another thing like you just mentioned. [00:17:01] Uh, I just wanna mention three quickly other things as well. Um, before we jump into the habits, maybe because it's about the experiences, uh, that jumps back into that is the savoring the moment. Meaning that you really see and, and stay in that moment and see the positive side and aspects of things. And what you can do is you can share that with others. [00:17:23] So if it's an experience that you had yourself, um, to have a bigger impact, you can share this with others as well via the phone. Maybe a video, maybe a quick call, video call or something. Um, that can help that. Um, You can physically jump up in the air and, and be happy about things and, uh, stuff like that. [00:17:42] But anyway, just to, to, uh, combine that again with the experiences, so with the habits, um, because habits, um, enhance, can enhance if you're talking about good habits. Um, so, and these might have to be defined, but they, um, enhance really [00:18:00] your physical health, your mental health. Um, your emotional resilience and can really contribute to, uh, again, to this greater sense of purpose and fulfillment. [00:18:12] Mm-hmm. Now, creating habits, I'm gonna talk about this in a second, but, uh, engaging in hobbies or activities that bring you joy and there's a difference between joy and happiness. Officially there's this definition. Happiness is like the longer state and, uh, of something. The joy is the one that you have in that moment. [00:18:32] Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say find something that brings you joy outside of business also. Um, of course you should have joy in the business and what you're doing. But make sure you do find hobbies in, um, groups that you, um, go out with in nature and things that have nothing to do necessarily with your business. [00:18:56] Because I think as entrepreneurs as well, we [00:19:00] have difficulties to detach from work because it's always there and it's our baby and we're passionate about it so that we. Mm. Don't see that we overwork ourselves sometimes. So, uh, take some stuff out of there as well and create habits around it. Um, have regular working hours is a habit that I think everyone should have. [00:19:20] Um, when you ha work for someone else or if you work for yourself, have your own business. Make sure you have working hours set and don't work after those hours. There might be exceptions cuz maybe there's a podcast recording that you're doing with someone else after hours or. Um, you speak at an event and it's not possible to do otherwise, but the norm should be that you have regular set hours. [00:19:45] That's, I think, a good habit to have. Um, to have a end of work routine is something that I never had. And after I worked with someone, um, that was also a remote coach, basically that was one of the first things she said, [00:20:00] you should have. A habit, a routine when finished working because you can signal your brain. [00:20:06] Okay, that's it. That's the end of the work today, especially if you're working from home, right? Because, and you might be even in the same room and where you do other things, um, in the not have extra office. That's another great habit. Um, morning routines. I'm a massive fan of morning routine. Um, you don't have to be extreme, but having some kind of routine to start your day to wake up in a slower way. [00:20:30] I get up very early. I have almost two hour morning routine. Um, but where you involve different kind of senses, bit of exercise, doesn't have to be a massive exercise. Can be also yoga, some breathing exercise. Maybe people like to do visualizations in the morning, maybe to ride whatever you feel, what works for you, which gives you the time. [00:20:50] To wake up and to set up for the day. I think that would be a good habit to have. Um, healthy eating, which can be sometimes [00:21:00] challenging if you are in, in this run of getting things done. Um, Eating very fast. Even if you eat healthy stuff, uh, is also not, uh, recommended. And I'm still eating too fast. I'm, I'm done in six minutes with my whole, uh, lunch, which is, uh, not good. [00:21:19] I take an hour because then I do a walk and things like that, but the actual eating part is too short actually. Mm-hmm. Um, But eating healthy because it will give you energy, it will be good for your body. Um, and it will really have a big impact on your health and wellbeing and your happiness as well. [00:21:37] Sarah: What I hear is like there's a lot of habits that are actually more life related than they are business related. Um, and those are the ones who are really established as. Solid foundation. Right. Of course. Then we could also be speaking about, you know, create a habit to write every day, you know, [00:22:00] write blog posts every, like mm-hmm. [00:22:01] All of these other habits. But it sounds like the ones that really build a foundation and that make you happy, happy are, are more life related [00:22:12] Christine: habits. Yes. Yeah, because they, they impact you. Yeah. And the same with getting enough sleep. If you don't get enough sleep, you won't be able to focus enough during your day and get stuff done that you want to get done. [00:22:22] Right? So everything impacts your, um, impacts your work as well. If you don't eat healthy, you probably don't have enough. Uh, if you don't drink enough water, if you're not eating healthy, you don't have enough energy to get through the day, you will have a down point as well. Um, if you. If you don't give yourself enough time to wake up in the morning with a morning or dinner, that will impact your day. [00:22:44] Yeah. Um, of course these cutoff days and stuff that I mentioned are more work related, but yes, for sure. Yeah. I'm also [00:22:51] Sarah: a big fan of, um, I think it was Tim Ferris, at least that's who I heard, uh, talk about it. Uh, first is, is you know, kind of. [00:23:00] Minimizing the decision fatigue, like making, we we're making so many decisions every day as entrepreneurs, right? [00:23:08] Mm-hmm. So if you can just cut a few of these decisions and just have the habits, uh, for example, you know, I have oatmeal every morning, and that's just. Who I am now, it's basically who I am. It's like I'm Sarah who eats oatmeal with, um, turmeric every morning. And so then it just becomes part of you. I do yoga every morning. [00:23:30] It's becomes part of you. And so you don't have to decide, should I eat yoga today or should I not? And so that in a way that it's not boring to me. It just makes me happy. I look forward to my oatmeal every day. Right. Yeah. So, [00:23:44] Christine: and that's exactly the, the point of habits and, and because it becomes a habit, it's effortless. [00:23:50] You don't have to take a decision. It's just part of what you do. Yeah. And it's also okay, and I'm someone who also struggles with that because I'm so, [00:24:00] um, Chiefer mindset, uh, if you want to call it and crossing off things to this, but. It's also okay to be flexible if you stayed up longer, wake up later to get enough sleep and don't compromise on that part just to get your habit in. [00:24:17] Um, so I think this flexibility around habit building. Um, so they become part and become easy and you don't have to take the decision to do something. However, if for whatever reason you can't do it at one day, that's also okay. Yeah. And I think it, [00:24:33] Sarah: you have to struggle with, with yourself and say, okay, fine today, and don't do that habit. [00:24:38] Christine: Exactly. And just a, a couple of tips there. Um, maybe. And people have heard that before probably on how to actually build habits and how to create habit and to make it effortless and there's lots of science behind it. How long does it take? If some people say 21 days? Some people say, uh, 30 something, some 70 something, I think depends on the person, depends on the habit. [00:24:58] Hmm. Uh, getting rid of [00:25:00] habit is even more difficult than creating healthy habits. Um, but starting small. Is of course the, the really, the biggest thing. If you say, I wanna meditate every day, one hour, you won't, if you've never meditate before, if you say, I'm gonna take a mindful breath every day before I get out of bed, I can do that. [00:25:20] That's the smallest thing you can do. Take one mindful breath, that's like a meditation, or I do a five minute guided meditation from YouTube or stretching or something that probably you can do. Um, accountability can be something that can help. So find someone, uh, that you share this again, shared experiences. [00:25:39] Mm-hmm. They maybe the habit with, um, or you, some people like use tracking apps. Uh, right. Strangely enough, I don't, but, uh, I know there's a lot of happy tracking apps and stuff. Some people, for some people that works. Um, again, tracking the progress. Um, if you do yoga, like you mentioned, for example, if you.[00:26:00] [00:26:01] Um, you see, you get more flexible and, uh, it's, it's better and you have probably as back pain because, uh, we probably sit a lot in front of the computer with a lot of zoom meetings, things like that. A good habit to have is also have taking screen breaks, for example, um, not to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day. [00:26:20] Taking the breaks. Make sure your eyes can relax. Um, celebrating when you've done one of the habits, okay? You, you created something. So if you wanna do yoga, if you take a breath, whatever it is, then in the end, that habit is you celebrate that you did that. And that doesn't mean you have to then go out and drink something, or you, you go on a holiday every time you do a habit. [00:26:42] But it can be just like a Well done, Christine, a head on the shoulder. Maybe you wanna hug yourself. Maybe you look in the mirror and say, yes. Yes, I did that. Thank you. Good. That was good. That's like little celebration to signal your brain, that little success moment as well. [00:27:00] Yeah. Feeling more accomplished. [00:27:02] Um, and a final thing is, um, finding the situations and the support and the surroundings that help you to implement your healthy habits. So if you wanna establish something and your life and the people around you is not, just not set up for that. Then think about it and doing it consistently will help you to do that. [00:27:23] And um, I think the last thing they always say is, make sure you attach it to something that you already do. So someone said to me, oh, if, if you wanna do five sit ups in the morning, if we talk about physical exercise and you attach that to when you stopped brushing your teeth, Then you will do it more likely than trying to do it outside of something that you already do. [00:27:46] You wanna drink more water. That's why some [00:27:47] Sarah: people have their running shoes already out when they go to bed. Right, right next to the bed. [00:27:53] Christine: Yeah. Also, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this, uh, would be like, good, good tips. Thanks. Thank [00:27:59] Sarah: you. [00:28:00] Yeah. I, there's another thing I really wanna make sure we have time to talk about. [00:28:05] Mm-hmm. Um, which is goals. Because in a way, it kind of probably ties into our definition of success because we, as entrepreneurs, we set ourselves sometimes quite aggressive goals, right? Mm-hmm. And then we're not happy or we're sad if we're not achieving them. And so you talk about this idea of making sure that we set achievable goals. [00:28:34] Mm-hmm. Talk to us about that and how that makes us happier. [00:28:39] Christine: Yes. Um, well, because if we feel, um, first of all, if we are achieving goals and then we talk about how I usually set goals as well, um, then it gives us this sense of fulfillment that we achieved something, uh, we should always celebrate, we achieved the goal. [00:28:55] So it, it gives us a sense of moving forward. I think if you do not [00:29:00] set goals, it can be very demotivating in business. Um, and I always say, if you don't set yourself a goal, how do you know you achieved something? If you never wanted to achieve something because a goal is nothing else, then okay, I wanna get something done if we, okay. [00:29:15] Goal setting is a harsh, harsh thing and I know we all do it and, and stuff, and we're in business. Um, however, I think getting to a specific point where you want to be, It's already setting yourself a goal. And we all want to be somewhere. We all want to be, have specific impact. We all want to have a certain amount of money to support a lifestyle that we want. [00:29:36] We all, um, want to make work with X amount of people because then we know, again, we have that impact in that kind of way, so that that really can support making us happy. But one thing is extremely important. Goals might change. Goals are not written in stone like they say you can, it's your goal. [00:30:00] Well, I always say you have three questions. [00:30:02] Um, is it your goal, yes or no? Is it maybe put onto you by someone else? Um, especially when you work in a company and it's, you are not a business owner, then you often get goals set by other people. Um, does the goal excite you? And, um, if any of the answers to these questions is no. Revisit the goal because you will get demotivated. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. And then there's obviously a lot of acronyms and formulas and stuff that you can use to set goals and, uh, one of the most used ones is smart. I actually don't like that too much, even though it does work. But I, I just don't like it too much because it's always used in corporate situations and stuff like that. [00:30:47] Um, so I, um, use actually a different one, which is called Achieve, which already has a great word in it. Okay, so the acronym like that much better? Yes. Um, so it's basically stating a goal as if [00:31:00] it already happened. So not I want this, but, um, as as it, I have a successful business. Let's start with that. [00:31:08] Instead of saying, oh, I don't want to be in a full-time job. Um, then we have the C, which is clear and specific, so you need to know what that means. What does a successful business mean to you? Where is it with whom is it? How much many clients do you have? The turnover, because you will have to think about the money side as well. [00:31:26] Um, and then, um, be very clear and specific on that. And then the age is actually the hittable, which is. Achievable. Um, is this actually realistic? Too often I hear people that, oh, I'm gonna have, uh, this company that will have 2 million turnover at the end of, uh, year two. This is not realistic. Um, probably depends on the company. [00:31:49] Um, the I in Achieve is in a positive direction. So state what you want rather than what you don't want. Also has a bit to do with how the brain works. [00:32:00] Um, because they, uh, the brain does not understand negatives. Um, and if you give it what you already want, then there's a lot of research done that you will actually be more likely to achieve that e uh, so achieve, uh, is exciting. [00:32:16] So it should be exciting for you. If it doesn't excite you, I would not recommend. You're not gonna Yeah. Call, go for it. Yeah. And then the V is actually value-based. Um, and I think that's really important because, um, it should align with your values. You need to be clear on your values, what's important to you, what don't you want, what do you want in life, um, and it needs to align with that. [00:32:40] And then we have the last E, which is ecological. And basically what that means is who and what is affected by you achieving that goal. Because maybe you say, I want to have this company and I wanna run it in New Zealand. If you have a family, For example, or also friends or uh, husband [00:33:00] or children, they will be affected by you moving to New Zealand. [00:33:04] So you should check if they're okay with you achieving that goal. You might have less time for anyone because all of a sudden you have to work more. Um, and you check if they're okay with that. And if they are not okay with that, are you okay with them not being okay with that? That makes sense because it's your goal, it's your life. [00:33:24] But you, [00:33:24] Sarah: you're part of a bigger ecosystem and Exactly. You need to check in with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I like that achieve much better than the the smart. Yeah. Mm. It's, yeah. It's somehow outdated and Yeah. It's maybe it's also bigger. It's overused. It's like from the corporate day, so we're like, nah, we're getting Exactly. [00:33:44] Christine: Exactly. [00:33:47] Sarah: I love that. Yeah. Um, We both have communities. Um, and so I'm just wondering also what happiness and community, where they [00:34:00] overlap what they have in common. Um, yeah. You wanna talk about your community and then we can also talk about the circle a little bit. [00:34:09] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So in, in general, I would say just, um, to answer the question, what do communities have to do with, um, happiness? [00:34:17] Um, it's actually scientifically proven as well that soul through connection, doing things with others, um, is extremely important for happiness and it's crucial for your over overall wellbeing, um, and happiness. And I talk in, um, my book about that as well, a lot. Um, and they actually found that it's. If you are connected in a community, so that's even in a church or in our cases, right? [00:34:46] Sarah: Professional communities. Real life communities or [00:34:48] Christine: online? Yeah, online communities. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they, they've shown the studies have shown that you're less likely to experience, um, uh, premature, uh, [00:35:00] death and have more chances to survive fatal illnesses. Because it, it is a bit strange, but it's really, makes, makes total sense to me. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because, um, it will also build up for more resilience and, um, you will have a support system when you're going through difficult times. You will, um, less likely feel loneliness and isolation, have this sense of belonging and you can discover your purpose there as well. Um, and usually you are part of a community that you have shared values with, right? [00:35:35] And, uh, this is where our communities and especially also yours come in and we just be a part of something and we can create new experiences together. So that's based again, of the shared experiences. Um, so having social connections and groups and communities that you belong to really play a massive role in health. [00:35:57] Physical health really. Um, but also in the [00:36:00] mental, um, health and wellbeing and, um, what my community is, uh, for entrepreneurs in the first three years to support them with all kind of things, uh, support, uh, in, in resources and life support and with the community. Um, and yours obviously is a fantastic community of professional people, but that are not. [00:36:22] Mm. Because sometimes when people hear the word professional, they're a bit put off because they think it's like that kind of person that just thinks, uh, uh, about numbers and about, uh, how many followers do I have and, um, how much money do I make? And stuff like, it's not that you can, in my point of view. [00:36:39] And also I know everyone in your community you can be professional, meaning reliable. Um, Exchange knowledge. So you're knowledgeable as well in what you're doing. And I think your community's amazing for that because I've met so many amazing people, started already collaborating with them. And I remember the very first [00:37:00] session that I attended life, I had so much that I took out of that that I then implemented into my business, which really works as well. [00:37:08] Um, and you. All the focus is obviously all on humane and gentle, um, marketing techniques as well. And it, it's really, it's really lovely and it, it does give me that sense of, I found a tribe that I belong to because I can feel that we have, um, shared values, we create these experiences. It's very relaxed and, um, but. [00:37:34] Still professional. Like I say, [00:37:36] Sarah: I love to highlight that. Right. It's this idea, well, I guess we do speak a lot about being human, right? Mm-hmm. Marketing, like we're human. And so that's really what I've wanting, wanted to create is a place where we can be human. Mm-hmm. And yet still be professionals or talk about marketing and business and, and I think that's what also [00:38:00] creates the happiness because we are. [00:38:02] All being our authentic selves. I think that's what you also meant by the community where you feel like you can be yourself, [00:38:10] Christine: right? Yes. And you can feel that passion that everyone has. Yeah. So coming back to the passion that everyone has for their business, and again, if you, if you talk to people that are passionate about something, this will wrap off on you because it's positive energy and it will really, really gives you energy. [00:38:28] Because I, I know it can be sometimes difficult to attend a meeting after hours. Um, right. But every time I, I attend, for example, one of yours, which will be for my time, for example, at five o'clock, sometimes once a month, um, or twice a month. Then I do think, oh yeah, I had a long day. Yeah. But I do know after this meeting, I will be energized actually. [00:38:51] Right. I will be energized because of the people [00:38:53] Sarah: in there. It's experience, again, it's how we started, right? Yeah. It's more of an experience rather than just like, [00:39:00] oh, let me listen to another meeting, or, yes, yes. Because it's not that. Yeah. And, and I just, because you started talking about, um, you know, other communities, church, or mm-hmm. [00:39:12] You know, faith-based or whatever. It's almost like, at least in Europe, that's kind of diminished, right? Mm-hmm. We don't have. Or a lot of us are not really in faith-based communities anymore. And I remember talking with my husband about it, and it's like, we're not craving the church, but we are thinking, you know, at least his parents, they were very, um, involved in church and he's like, yeah, we had a place to be on Sunday. [00:39:43] Mm-hmm. And, and it, and we, you know, we did things together and stuff like that. And it's true that. It's almost like we need to replace that now. [00:39:53] Christine: Mm-hmm. And there is actually someone who is doing that across the world also very successfully. Uh, they're called Sunday [00:40:00] Assembly Uhhuh, and they're on purpose, uh, not religious based. [00:40:03] So, um, he's actually saying, I don't believe in any gods or anything, but he believes in community and he creating those places where people go every Sunday. And have fun together. So I went to a lot of these in when I was in the UK because the guy who founded it, um, Who's also was hosting some of my events that I was doing across Europe, actually, because he's a comedian. [00:40:27] Um, they're really amazing events because people go there, you meet the same, and they, they're like a franchise. So people, they pop up everywhere. Also around the world, also in the US and stuff. And people go and you sing along to a someone to a karaoke song of, uh, of queen. Then there's someone who's, um, There's always a theme of the day. [00:40:48] Mm-hmm. Someone who has written a poem about that theme. Then there's someone who gives a talk about something. And then, um, so I, I actually also did a talk there about community building because of another project I was working on. [00:41:00] And then people stay together and they go together in the pub and, and stuff like that. [00:41:03] And that is really exactly what you mean. Yeah, [00:41:07] Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's so needed, so yeah. Yeah, I think so. I'm happy that you are creating your community for your people and, and yeah, I think there needs to be more opportunities for people to, to [00:41:22] Christine: commune, to get together. Yes. And also to get together, uh, in person. [00:41:28] I mean, we've never met in person. Hopefully we will next, uh, next year around this time, of course. Um, because I know you're organizing something, but. Everything is online and everything. It can be very difficult as well to activate a community and to get together and to have this community feeling, even though you're on the screen for zoom fatigue, this new word that came out, this new illness that all of a sudden happened. [00:41:50] But yeah, I think, yeah. [00:41:53] Sarah: Well, obviously everything we talked about here is, is kind of, well not everything, but a lot [00:42:00] of what we talked about here came from your book. So yes, please do. Tell us. Uh, and for those of us who are watching on YouTube, you can hold it up because you just got it today. Oh, [00:42:10] Christine: yes, wait, I have it here. [00:42:11] It's a first printed copy. Yay. The Happiness Formula. Thank you. Uh, you can get it on Amazon, basically on Amazons, but, uh, there is, uh, greatest startup academy.com/books where you can find that if in case you would be interested. Um, however, um, we are also for, for you, for the sense of this podcast, I would like to offer. [00:42:34] The Kindle book, at least the English version in this case are for free. So, Ooh. Thank you. Yeah. So, so when this one is, uh, aired, which, uh, is on the 2nd of June, I think. Yeah. Um, which is the Friday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, this book will be available, the Happiness Formula for three on Kindle. Wow, [00:42:55] Sarah: amazing. [00:42:55] So I'll make sure I use the right link where we can, uh, [00:43:00] download that and, and read about the habits and the goals. And there's so much else we had prepared but didn't have time to talk about. So yes, I'm just gonna have to read the book. Wonderful. Well, do you tell us, um, where people can find you, uh, your website again, where you most often hang out on social [00:43:20] Christine: media and all of that? [00:43:21] Uh, I think LinkedIn. Um, would be, um, one of the preferred ways to get in contact with me. Um, but you find everything on my website. Also the LinkedIn link on, on the bottom, uh, and the footer, um, to my profile. So if you go to creative startup academy.com, there you find everything, the book and also my LinkedIn. [00:43:40] Link the books [00:43:41] Sarah: because you've written like 20 books, right? Yeah. This is the [00:43:45] Christine: 20th. Yes. I got a bit [00:43:47] Sarah: obsessed. Make sure you celebrate because you tell everybody else to do it. So [00:43:52] Christine: make sure I, I, I, yes. I already celebrated when I unpacked earlier. Uh, and, and actually was running around and, and dancing and put a song on.[00:44:00] [00:44:00] And also my, my boyfriend was dancing with me, but we will celebrate more this weekend. [00:44:05] Sarah: Yes. Nice. I always have one last question on my podcast, and it's actually also, uh, another thing we skipped, which is gratitude. Uh, so what are you grateful for today? [00:44:17] Christine: Um, uh, this week apart from being grateful to have, uh, this opportunity to spread more joy and happiness, uh, in people's life, I think. [00:44:26] One, there's two big things I'm very grateful for. First, I, uh, I found love. Mm-hmm. Finding, uh, the person that you want to stay with for hopefully for the rest of your life that will be hopefully long and healthy. Mm-hmm. Um, that's one massive thing I'm massively grateful for, and that's always going in my gratitude journal every day. [00:44:46] Um, and the other thing, uh, is really to have these new opportunities, meeting so many lovely people. So there's so much support out there emotionally and um, with business [00:45:00] advice practically and everything, and I'm really, really grateful for that, that people are so openly sharing and supporting. [00:45:09] Sarah: Nice, nice. [00:45:10] Two things to be grateful for. Yeah. I'm grateful for this conversation. Thanks for being here. Thank you. [00:45:26] Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope it put a smile on your face and maybe got you curious about Christine's book to learn some more Happy. Habits so you can get her book, and as she said, she's offering it for free until June 4th, 2023 at creative startup academy.com/the-happiness-formula. [00:45:53] So go there now and download, uh, your free version of the Kindle book for free until June 4th. [00:46:00] You can find out more about Christine and her work at Creative Startup Academy. Dot com. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join Christine and I in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:14] You can find out more about, uh, this at humane.marketing/circle, and I also hope to see a few of you at the storytelling like we're human craft, your five word life story workshop. On June 7th with Hillary Rio, you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/storytelling. You'll find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 65. [00:46:47] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like [00:47:00] we're human and selling like we're human. And if you're an audiobook fan, I have good news marketing like We're Human is. [00:47:07] Available on, uh, audible or everywhere else you get your audio books. So if you are kind of tired of reading, especially now as we are heading into the, um, nice sunny season, at least on my side of the world, maybe you just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the book while you're walking. Uh, again, you can look that up on Audible or anywhere else where you find. [00:47:32] Uh, audiobooks, of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon in.

Today I'm talking to Christine, a Humane Marketing Circle member and Creative Start-Up Coach about passion and happiness. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Christine Michaelis, author of the book "The Happiness Formula." We explore the intriguing question of why some business owners find greater happiness in their endeavors than others. Throughout our discussion, we uncover a treasure trove of insights, examining the transformative power of habits that promote happiness, the art of setting achievable goals that foster fulfillment rather than disappointment, and the joy derived from being part of a vibrant community. Drawing from her extensive research and expertise, Christine offers practical strategies and illuminating anecdotes that are sure to inspire and motivate listeners to unlock their own path to happiness in business and beyond. So tune in as we embark on this captivating exploration of what it takes to be a truly happy and fulfilled business owner. In this episode, Christine and I share a conversation on: Why some business owners are happier than others Habits that make us happier How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed The happiness that comes from being in community with others Her new book 'The Happiness Formula' And much more Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:32] Hi, friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion, so we're back to the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you probably don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:07] That's the number one and the word page. This one page marketing plan comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a, you know, six step plan here, do this. But it's more like prompting you with questions that help you reflect on your different piece. [00:03:29] On today's show, I'm talking to Christine, uh, Michael's, uh, humane Marketing Circle, member and creative startup coach about passion and happiness. But before I tell you a little bit more about Christine and today's show, I'd like to tell you about our upcoming storytelling, like We're Human Workshop that takes place on June 7th. [00:03:52] As you may have noticed, I have this series of workshops, live workshops, with the theme of being [00:04:00] human. Something being human, right? And the idea is to look at these different concepts. Marketing strategies, et cetera, from the perspective of humane marketing and marketing like we're human. So this, uh, time we're looking at storytelling and rather than looking at storytelling from this, Hero's perspective, right? [00:04:22] Hint, hero's journey. We're actually looking at it from being human. So how are we going to tell stories that feel like we're human? Uh, I think we are kind of tired of the, uh, heroes, uh, stories and we'd watch, rather hear from a human level. Connect on this human level and in order to get ideal clients, we know that we, uh, need to bring more of us to our marketing, more of us to our story, but. [00:04:55] How, that's the question, right? In which stories are relevant? [00:05:00] Well, that's exactly what we're discussing in this 90 minute live workshop on June 7th, and I'm so thrilled that Hillary Ria, uh, my co-host will help you find your five word life story. And I'm really super excited about this because I. I'm so happy to have found a storytelling expert that agrees with me that, you know, the, the typical heroes journey story type is kind of outdated. [00:05:29] We need to bring more of us to our story, and that's what we're gonna do in this live workshop. So it starts from within. That's actually what we're doing. Instead of trying to fit our story into the story arc, the hero's journey arc we're coming from within. And there's still a, you know, framework. [00:05:47] There's still structure, but it really comes from within. So please have a look at the details at humane.marketing/storytelling and uh, join us for only [00:06:00] $27 for this confidence boosting workshop. Cuz once you. Own your story. That's when you're really going out there and resonating with your ideal clients. [00:06:09] Right? Of course, if you're already a Humane Marketing Circle member, you can intend all our workshops for free. Okay, back to today's episode. Let me tell you a bit more about Christine. Christine Marketing and creative startup coach, founder of the Creative Startup Academy, author of multiple books, public speaker, podcast and workshop facilitator. [00:06:33] She has worked in marketing and advertising for more than 12 years before she decided to start her own business supporting startups. When her hands-on approach, she has helped hundreds of individuals validate their. Business idea and create a successful startup, as well as working with small businesses, supporting them, getting clarity and marketing their business. [00:06:56] She sees entrepreneurship as a way of life and [00:07:00] loves the passion that comes from working in that industry. In our conversation today, we talked about why some business owners are happier than others and how to help, uh, those who are not always happy to get to more happiness. Some habits that make us happier. [00:07:20] How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed. The happiness that comes from being in community with others. Her new book, the Happiness Formula, and so much more. So let's dive in and be happy with Christine McKays. [00:07:40] Hi Christine. Thanks so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast. I look forward to this conversation about happiness and bliss. [00:07:48] Christine: Yes, thank you. I'm very excited to share Rod It and um, Hopefully make some people happy. At least smile, [00:07:56] Sarah: at least. We're definitely smiling. Uh, I just said [00:08:00] offline, I spent most of my day in nature. [00:08:02] We saw these little ducklings and you know, it's finally spring. Yeah, I'm definitely happy today. So, but let's, let's start with you like, you know, it's, um, I'm basically featuring this episode under the P of Passion, which is the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And so when you said that you're coming out with a book about happiness, I'm like, well, happiness, passion, you know, it's all these good feelings that we want to have more of. [00:08:31] So tell us yeah. What you are passionate about and, and then also obviously then we go into the, the whole definition of happiness and how do we get more happy as autism. [00:08:43] Christine: Yes. Um, well, thank you. First, uh, for having me. I'm, I'm very excited. Um, I know we've done so many things together and I know there will be so many more collaborations coming out of that. [00:08:56] Uh, and I think you can't find a more passionate person [00:09:00] about, uh, what they do. I know everyone is, but I really explode with passion when I, when I talk about, um, What I do and, and I just love it. Uh, and always I say I'm an accidental entrepreneur because I never wanted my own business. Um, but it had just happened and I absolutely love it. [00:09:19] And I only basically work with people because I work with entrepreneurs, um, that are really passionate about what they're doing. And that's lovely. That wraps off on me. And it really gives you energy, I think, um, when you, uh, yeah, when you work with people that are passionate. So what am I passionate about? [00:09:39] Work. Mm-hmm. In this case, my own company. Um, if we are looking from a business perspective, I'm really someone who loves getting things done and crossing things off the list. I, I really love, I'm, I'm like kind of, I'm really passionate about having this and I used to not anymore, uh, have to-do lists for [00:10:00] personal life. [00:10:01] Okay, do the sports, uh, go out for, for a walk, wash the dishes and stuff. Now I don't do that anymore, and I'm learning more and more to also sometimes do nothing, uh, which is really difficult for me because I love to finish things also. That's not very strange. But I love to finish a shampoo bottle or to, to finish a product or something. [00:10:24] I have to, that's fine with me. Um, I know what you [00:10:27] Sarah: mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's kind of like that's. Oh, okay. We finished this, you know, and it's like, oh, we can move on to the next thing. [00:10:35] Christine: Yeah. And challenges work really well for me. If you give me a 30 day challenge, I will do all 30 days. Um, But what I'm really passionate about is as well, um, is making people smile. [00:10:47] I think really people always say, oh, what's your purpose in life and stuff? And this sounds very cheesy now, but I, I love making people happy because it makes me really happy and it's all interconnected and it's lots of science behind it [00:11:00] as well. Um, however, that really, that may, that, that's what I'm passionate about, spreading some happiness in, in swan's life. [00:11:09] Hmm. Yeah. [00:11:10] Yeah. [00:11:11] Sarah: So, so let's talk about this happiness. Um, what, what I was thinking about is like, you know, how come what makes some entrepreneurs, business people happier than others? And, and then how can we help those who are not currently happy in their business or in their life? But since we're on a business podcast, we can talk about business. [00:11:37] Um, Yeah. How can we help them to find back to being happy? [00:11:44] Christine: I think the very first thing, I mean there's also official definitions of happiness and stuff. The very first thing is obviously to know and understand, um, which probably people do that. Happiness means different things to different people. Um, however, there's also science [00:12:00] that shows what doesn't make happy. [00:12:01] Um, but we are gonna focus, of course, also on the things that. Will make people happy and also, um, business owners. So, um, I, I would say you would need to define first, what does happiness mean to you? What does success mean to you? Because therefore, for, um, entrepreneurs are often interlinked, um, let's say saying, okay, if I have success, That makes me happy and that makes also the business sustainable. [00:12:28] But what does that mean? It does not necessarily mean, uh, a lot of money. It might mean I help X amount of people with what I do, or I have an impact on society, on an, the environment, whatever. Uh, a specific, uh, success definition. I think everyone, uh, as a business owner should have. I, uh, again, I appreciate that we all have to pay the bills and that is a business. [00:12:54] Um, so it, um, it's thinking about the money, but not in, in the connection with [00:13:00] happiness really. So understanding what does happiness mean to you and your, in your business, um, and what does success mean to you? It's the very, very first thing. And then if we go into a few really practical things and steps into what, um, science has shown, what really works, um, and what helps with happiness and increasing your happiness, Is, um, investing into experiences in instead of materialistic things. [00:13:29] So because they create lasting memories and give you the sense of personal growth as well, and that overall can contribute, um, to a deeper understanding and satisfaction and fulfillment. And, um, basically when you do that, you prioritize time. Over resources. You prioritized, uh, your time and resource in a way that really align with your values as well and your personal interests. [00:13:58] So in business [00:14:00] or in personal life as well. And again, this can give you this sense of fulfillment, fulfillment and feeds into the purpose that you might not have defined yet for yourself because it's a very difficult question. What's your purpose like? Mm-hmm. I just talked to someone else who said, I don't believe in that stuff. [00:14:17] I don't think we have any purpose. And I was like, okay. Uh, that's okay. Everyone has their own view. Um, but really you can, you can do that. And investing into experiences. You also invest in relationships with other people. You create memories together. And, um, you also share that, that success with, uh, other ones. [00:14:36] And in that case, um, you can share successes, for example, that you had or the company had with the team, with co-founders. With, uh, freelancers that you, that you work with, if you outsource something with suppliers, with clients, you can share this. If, if the client had a success, you should celebrate that. [00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Not because, oh, I'm so great. That was me, but really because you're happy for that person. [00:15:00] Mm-hmm. And it will make you happy. So that would be the next experiences. [00:15:04] Sarah: I really like that because I just come back, uh, from, from an experience. So, so basically we have a mastermind, uh, where we meet every, uh, every month and every month that somebody else hosts the, the get together. [00:15:18] And so today, I hosted and so I just, I said, instead of staying at our place, let's go down to the forest because I'm. Lucky enough to live next to a forest, next to, um, a little water, uh, stream as well. And so, um, you know, it takes time though to take time of our, out of our busy lives, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, only five out of the 10 people could make it, but those who made it, we just appreciated it so much. [00:15:47] And then, like I said, we saw the ducklings, we created memories together, right? And, and yeah, we just. Felt really happy. Where had we stayed in our office and, you know, [00:16:00] maybe, yeah. Made more money or, you know, had another client that it wouldn't have given us the same feeling of happiness. I'm sure. Yes. It's, yeah. [00:16:11] It's really those times where you step out of the. Normal kind of, um, things that, that you feel these moments of awe and, and experience what you, what you said. [00:16:23] Christine: Another thing that, and also with others. I mean with others, exactly. You, you can go by yourself and you have a great experiences, but if you share this moment with others, the shared moment again as another. [00:16:32] Yeah. Um, yeah. So another [00:16:34] Sarah: layer of happiness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, um, point you make in the book that contributes to happiness is about building. Habits. Um, so talk to us about these habits. Why do habits, one could say, well, habits make it more boring. So, so how do habits make us more happy? [00:16:57] Christine: Yes. So building habits is [00:17:00] another thing like you just mentioned. [00:17:01] Uh, I just wanna mention three quickly other things as well. Um, before we jump into the habits, maybe because it's about the experiences, uh, that jumps back into that is the savoring the moment. Meaning that you really see and, and stay in that moment and see the positive side and aspects of things. And what you can do is you can share that with others. [00:17:23] So if it's an experience that you had yourself, um, to have a bigger impact, you can share this with others as well via the phone. Maybe a video, maybe a quick call, video call or something. Um, that can help that. Um, You can physically jump up in the air and, and be happy about things and, uh, stuff like that. [00:17:42] But anyway, just to, to, uh, combine that again with the experiences, so with the habits, um, because habits, um, enhance, can enhance if you're talking about good habits. Um, so, and these might have to be defined, but they, um, enhance really [00:18:00] your physical health, your mental health. Um, your emotional resilience and can really contribute to, uh, again, to this greater sense of purpose and fulfillment. [00:18:12] Mm-hmm. Now, creating habits, I'm gonna talk about this in a second, but, uh, engaging in hobbies or activities that bring you joy and there's a difference between joy and happiness. Officially there's this definition. Happiness is like the longer state and, uh, of something. The joy is the one that you have in that moment. [00:18:32] Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say find something that brings you joy outside of business also. Um, of course you should have joy in the business and what you're doing. But make sure you do find hobbies in, um, groups that you, um, go out with in nature and things that have nothing to do necessarily with your business. [00:18:56] Because I think as entrepreneurs as well, we [00:19:00] have difficulties to detach from work because it's always there and it's our baby and we're passionate about it so that we. Mm. Don't see that we overwork ourselves sometimes. So, uh, take some stuff out of there as well and create habits around it. Um, have regular working hours is a habit that I think everyone should have. [00:19:20] Um, when you ha work for someone else or if you work for yourself, have your own business. Make sure you have working hours set and don't work after those hours. There might be exceptions cuz maybe there's a podcast recording that you're doing with someone else after hours or. Um, you speak at an event and it's not possible to do otherwise, but the norm should be that you have regular set hours. [00:19:45] That's, I think, a good habit to have. Um, to have a end of work routine is something that I never had. And after I worked with someone, um, that was also a remote coach, basically that was one of the first things she said, [00:20:00] you should have. A habit, a routine when finished working because you can signal your brain. [00:20:06] Okay, that's it. That's the end of the work today, especially if you're working from home, right? Because, and you might be even in the same room and where you do other things, um, in the not have extra office. That's another great habit. Um, morning routines. I'm a massive fan of morning routine. Um, you don't have to be extreme, but having some kind of routine to start your day to wake up in a slower way. [00:20:30] I get up very early. I have almost two hour morning routine. Um, but where you involve different kind of senses, bit of exercise, doesn't have to be a massive exercise. Can be also yoga, some breathing exercise. Maybe people like to do visualizations in the morning, maybe to ride whatever you feel, what works for you, which gives you the time. [00:20:50] To wake up and to set up for the day. I think that would be a good habit to have. Um, healthy eating, which can be sometimes [00:21:00] challenging if you are in, in this run of getting things done. Um, Eating very fast. Even if you eat healthy stuff, uh, is also not, uh, recommended. And I'm still eating too fast. I'm, I'm done in six minutes with my whole, uh, lunch, which is, uh, not good. [00:21:19] I take an hour because then I do a walk and things like that, but the actual eating part is too short actually. Mm-hmm. Um, But eating healthy because it will give you energy, it will be good for your body. Um, and it will really have a big impact on your health and wellbeing and your happiness as well. [00:21:37] Sarah: What I hear is like there's a lot of habits that are actually more life related than they are business related. Um, and those are the ones who are really established as. Solid foundation. Right. Of course. Then we could also be speaking about, you know, create a habit to write every day, you know, [00:22:00] write blog posts every, like mm-hmm. [00:22:01] All of these other habits. But it sounds like the ones that really build a foundation and that make you happy, happy are, are more life related [00:22:12] Christine: habits. Yes. Yeah, because they, they impact you. Yeah. And the same with getting enough sleep. If you don't get enough sleep, you won't be able to focus enough during your day and get stuff done that you want to get done. [00:22:22] Right? So everything impacts your, um, impacts your work as well. If you don't eat healthy, you probably don't have enough. Uh, if you don't drink enough water, if you're not eating healthy, you don't have enough energy to get through the day, you will have a down point as well. Um, if you. If you don't give yourself enough time to wake up in the morning with a morning or dinner, that will impact your day. [00:22:44] Yeah. Um, of course these cutoff days and stuff that I mentioned are more work related, but yes, for sure. Yeah. I'm also [00:22:51] Sarah: a big fan of, um, I think it was Tim Ferris, at least that's who I heard, uh, talk about it. Uh, first is, is you know, kind of. [00:23:00] Minimizing the decision fatigue, like making, we we're making so many decisions every day as entrepreneurs, right? [00:23:08] Mm-hmm. So if you can just cut a few of these decisions and just have the habits, uh, for example, you know, I have oatmeal every morning, and that's just. Who I am now, it's basically who I am. It's like I'm Sarah who eats oatmeal with, um, turmeric every morning. And so then it just becomes part of you. I do yoga every morning. [00:23:30] It's becomes part of you. And so you don't have to decide, should I eat yoga today or should I not? And so that in a way that it's not boring to me. It just makes me happy. I look forward to my oatmeal every day. Right. Yeah. So, [00:23:44] Christine: and that's exactly the, the point of habits and, and because it becomes a habit, it's effortless. [00:23:50] You don't have to take a decision. It's just part of what you do. Yeah. And it's also okay, and I'm someone who also struggles with that because I'm so, [00:24:00] um, Chiefer mindset, uh, if you want to call it and crossing off things to this, but. It's also okay to be flexible if you stayed up longer, wake up later to get enough sleep and don't compromise on that part just to get your habit in. [00:24:17] Um, so I think this flexibility around habit building. Um, so they become part and become easy and you don't have to take the decision to do something. However, if for whatever reason you can't do it at one day, that's also okay. Yeah. And I think it, [00:24:33] Sarah: you have to struggle with, with yourself and say, okay, fine today, and don't do that habit. [00:24:38] Christine: Exactly. And just a, a couple of tips there. Um, maybe. And people have heard that before probably on how to actually build habits and how to create habit and to make it effortless and there's lots of science behind it. How long does it take? If some people say 21 days? Some people say, uh, 30 something, some 70 something, I think depends on the person, depends on the habit. [00:24:58] Hmm. Uh, getting rid of [00:25:00] habit is even more difficult than creating healthy habits. Um, but starting small. Is of course the, the really, the biggest thing. If you say, I wanna meditate every day, one hour, you won't, if you've never meditate before, if you say, I'm gonna take a mindful breath every day before I get out of bed, I can do that. [00:25:20] That's the smallest thing you can do. Take one mindful breath, that's like a meditation, or I do a five minute guided meditation from YouTube or stretching or something that probably you can do. Um, accountability can be something that can help. So find someone, uh, that you share this again, shared experiences. [00:25:39] Mm-hmm. They maybe the habit with, um, or you, some people like use tracking apps. Uh, right. Strangely enough, I don't, but, uh, I know there's a lot of happy tracking apps and stuff. Some people, for some people that works. Um, again, tracking the progress. Um, if you do yoga, like you mentioned, for example, if you.[00:26:00] [00:26:01] Um, you see, you get more flexible and, uh, it's, it's better and you have probably as back pain because, uh, we probably sit a lot in front of the computer with a lot of zoom meetings, things like that. A good habit to have is also have taking screen breaks, for example, um, not to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day. [00:26:20] Taking the breaks. Make sure your eyes can relax. Um, celebrating when you've done one of the habits, okay? You, you created something. So if you wanna do yoga, if you take a breath, whatever it is, then in the end, that habit is you celebrate that you did that. And that doesn't mean you have to then go out and drink something, or you, you go on a holiday every time you do a habit. [00:26:42] But it can be just like a Well done, Christine, a head on the shoulder. Maybe you wanna hug yourself. Maybe you look in the mirror and say, yes. Yes, I did that. Thank you. Good. That was good. That's like little celebration to signal your brain, that little success moment as well. [00:27:00] Yeah. Feeling more accomplished. [00:27:02] Um, and a final thing is, um, finding the situations and the support and the surroundings that help you to implement your healthy habits. So if you wanna establish something and your life and the people around you is not, just not set up for that. Then think about it and doing it consistently will help you to do that. [00:27:23] And um, I think the last thing they always say is, make sure you attach it to something that you already do. So someone said to me, oh, if, if you wanna do five sit ups in the morning, if we talk about physical exercise and you attach that to when you stopped brushing your teeth, Then you will do it more likely than trying to do it outside of something that you already do. [00:27:46] You wanna drink more water. That's why some [00:27:47] Sarah: people have their running shoes already out when they go to bed. Right, right next to the bed. [00:27:53] Christine: Yeah. Also, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this, uh, would be like, good, good tips. Thanks. Thank [00:27:59] Sarah: you. [00:28:00] Yeah. I, there's another thing I really wanna make sure we have time to talk about. [00:28:05] Mm-hmm. Um, which is goals. Because in a way, it kind of probably ties into our definition of success because we, as entrepreneurs, we set ourselves sometimes quite aggressive goals, right? Mm-hmm. And then we're not happy or we're sad if we're not achieving them. And so you talk about this idea of making sure that we set achievable goals. [00:28:34] Mm-hmm. Talk to us about that and how that makes us happier. [00:28:39] Christine: Yes. Um, well, because if we feel, um, first of all, if we are achieving goals and then we talk about how I usually set goals as well, um, then it gives us this sense of fulfillment that we achieved something, uh, we should always celebrate, we achieved the goal. [00:28:55] So it, it gives us a sense of moving forward. I think if you do not [00:29:00] set goals, it can be very demotivating in business. Um, and I always say, if you don't set yourself a goal, how do you know you achieved something? If you never wanted to achieve something because a goal is nothing else, then okay, I wanna get something done if we, okay. [00:29:15] Goal setting is a harsh, harsh thing and I know we all do it and, and stuff, and we're in business. Um, however, I think getting to a specific point where you want to be, It's already setting yourself a goal. And we all want to be somewhere. We all want to be, have specific impact. We all want to have a certain amount of money to support a lifestyle that we want. [00:29:36] We all, um, want to make work with X amount of people because then we know, again, we have that impact in that kind of way, so that that really can support making us happy. But one thing is extremely important. Goals might change. Goals are not written in stone like they say you can, it's your goal. [00:30:00] Well, I always say you have three questions. [00:30:02] Um, is it your goal, yes or no? Is it maybe put onto you by someone else? Um, especially when you work in a company and it's, you are not a business owner, then you often get goals set by other people. Um, does the goal excite you? And, um, if any of the answers to these questions is no. Revisit the goal because you will get demotivated. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. And then there's obviously a lot of acronyms and formulas and stuff that you can use to set goals and, uh, one of the most used ones is smart. I actually don't like that too much, even though it does work. But I, I just don't like it too much because it's always used in corporate situations and stuff like that. [00:30:47] Um, so I, um, use actually a different one, which is called Achieve, which already has a great word in it. Okay, so the acronym like that much better? Yes. Um, so it's basically stating a goal as if [00:31:00] it already happened. So not I want this, but, um, as as it, I have a successful business. Let's start with that. [00:31:08] Instead of saying, oh, I don't want to be in a full-time job. Um, then we have the C, which is clear and specific, so you need to know what that means. What does a successful business mean to you? Where is it with whom is it? How much many clients do you have? The turnover, because you will have to think about the money side as well. [00:31:26] Um, and then, um, be very clear and specific on that. And then the age is actually the hittable, which is. Achievable. Um, is this actually realistic? Too often I hear people that, oh, I'm gonna have, uh, this company that will have 2 million turnover at the end of, uh, year two. This is not realistic. Um, probably depends on the company. [00:31:49] Um, the I in Achieve is in a positive direction. So state what you want rather than what you don't want. Also has a bit to do with how the brain works. [00:32:00] Um, because they, uh, the brain does not understand negatives. Um, and if you give it what you already want, then there's a lot of research done that you will actually be more likely to achieve that e uh, so achieve, uh, is exciting. [00:32:16] So it should be exciting for you. If it doesn't excite you, I would not recommend. You're not gonna Yeah. Call, go for it. Yeah. And then the V is actually value-based. Um, and I think that's really important because, um, it should align with your values. You need to be clear on your values, what's important to you, what don't you want, what do you want in life, um, and it needs to align with that. [00:32:40] And then we have the last E, which is ecological. And basically what that means is who and what is affected by you achieving that goal. Because maybe you say, I want to have this company and I wanna run it in New Zealand. If you have a family, For example, or also friends or uh, husband [00:33:00] or children, they will be affected by you moving to New Zealand. [00:33:04] So you should check if they're okay with you achieving that goal. You might have less time for anyone because all of a sudden you have to work more. Um, and you check if they're okay with that. And if they are not okay with that, are you okay with them not being okay with that? That makes sense because it's your goal, it's your life. [00:33:24] But you, [00:33:24] Sarah: you're part of a bigger ecosystem and Exactly. You need to check in with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I like that achieve much better than the the smart. Yeah. Mm. It's, yeah. It's somehow outdated and Yeah. It's maybe it's also bigger. It's overused. It's like from the corporate day, so we're like, nah, we're getting Exactly. [00:33:44] Christine: Exactly. [00:33:47] Sarah: I love that. Yeah. Um, We both have communities. Um, and so I'm just wondering also what happiness and community, where they [00:34:00] overlap what they have in common. Um, yeah. You wanna talk about your community and then we can also talk about the circle a little bit. [00:34:09] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So in, in general, I would say just, um, to answer the question, what do communities have to do with, um, happiness? [00:34:17] Um, it's actually scientifically proven as well that soul through connection, doing things with others, um, is extremely important for happiness and it's crucial for your over overall wellbeing, um, and happiness. And I talk in, um, my book about that as well, a lot. Um, and they actually found that it's. If you are connected in a community, so that's even in a church or in our cases, right? [00:34:46] Sarah: Professional communities. Real life communities or [00:34:48] Christine: online? Yeah, online communities. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they, they've shown the studies have shown that you're less likely to experience, um, uh, premature, uh, [00:35:00] death and have more chances to survive fatal illnesses. Because it, it is a bit strange, but it's really, makes, makes total sense to me. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because, um, it will also build up for more resilience and, um, you will have a support system when you're going through difficult times. You will, um, less likely feel loneliness and isolation, have this sense of belonging and you can discover your purpose there as well. Um, and usually you are part of a community that you have shared values with, right? [00:35:35] And, uh, this is where our communities and especially also yours come in and we just be a part of something and we can create new experiences together. So that's based again, of the shared experiences. Um, so having social connections and groups and communities that you belong to really play a massive role in health. [00:35:57] Physical health really. Um, but also in the [00:36:00] mental, um, health and wellbeing and, um, what my community is, uh, for entrepreneurs in the first three years to support them with all kind of things, uh, support, uh, in, in resources and life support and with the community. Um, and yours obviously is a fantastic community of professional people, but that are not. [00:36:22] Mm. Because sometimes when people hear the word professional, they're a bit put off because they think it's like that kind of person that just thinks, uh, uh, about numbers and about, uh, how many followers do I have and, um, how much money do I make? And stuff like, it's not that you can, in my point of view. [00:36:39] And also I know everyone in your community you can be professional, meaning reliable. Um, Exchange knowledge. So you're knowledgeable as well in what you're doing. And I think your community's amazing for that because I've met so many amazing people, started already collaborating with them. And I remember the very first [00:37:00] session that I attended life, I had so much that I took out of that that I then implemented into my business, which really works as well. [00:37:08] Um, and you. All the focus is obviously all on humane and gentle, um, marketing techniques as well. And it, it's really, it's really lovely and it, it does give me that sense of, I found a tribe that I belong to because I can feel that we have, um, shared values, we create these experiences. It's very relaxed and, um, but. [00:37:34] Still professional. Like I say, [00:37:36] Sarah: I love to highlight that. Right. It's this idea, well, I guess we do speak a lot about being human, right? Mm-hmm. Marketing, like we're human. And so that's really what I've wanting, wanted to create is a place where we can be human. Mm-hmm. And yet still be professionals or talk about marketing and business and, and I think that's what also [00:38:00] creates the happiness because we are. [00:38:02] All being our authentic selves. I think that's what you also meant by the community where you feel like you can be yourself, [00:38:10] Christine: right? Yes. And you can feel that passion that everyone has. Yeah. So coming back to the passion that everyone has for their business, and again, if you, if you talk to people that are passionate about something, this will wrap off on you because it's positive energy and it will really, really gives you energy. [00:38:28] Because I, I know it can be sometimes difficult to attend a meeting after hours. Um, right. But every time I, I attend, for example, one of yours, which will be for my time, for example, at five o'clock, sometimes once a month, um, or twice a month. Then I do think, oh yeah, I had a long day. Yeah. But I do know after this meeting, I will be energized actually. [00:38:51] Right. I will be energized because of the people [00:38:53] Sarah: in there. It's experience, again, it's how we started, right? Yeah. It's more of an experience rather than just like, [00:39:00] oh, let me listen to another meeting, or, yes, yes. Because it's not that. Yeah. And, and I just, because you started talking about, um, you know, other communities, church, or mm-hmm. [00:39:12] You know, faith-based or whatever. It's almost like, at least in Europe, that's kind of diminished, right? Mm-hmm. We don't have. Or a lot of us are not really in faith-based communities anymore. And I remember talking with my husband about it, and it's like, we're not craving the church, but we are thinking, you know, at least his parents, they were very, um, involved in church and he's like, yeah, we had a place to be on Sunday. [00:39:43] Mm-hmm. And, and it, and we, you know, we did things together and stuff like that. And it's true that. It's almost like we need to replace that now. [00:39:53] Christine: Mm-hmm. And there is actually someone who is doing that across the world also very successfully. Uh, they're called Sunday [00:40:00] Assembly Uhhuh, and they're on purpose, uh, not religious based. [00:40:03] So, um, he's actually saying, I don't believe in any gods or anything, but he believes in community and he creating those places where people go every Sunday. And have fun together. So I went to a lot of these in when I was in the UK because the guy who founded it, um, Who's also was hosting some of my events that I was doing across Europe, actually, because he's a comedian. [00:40:27] Um, they're really amazing events because people go there, you meet the same, and they, they're like a franchise. So people, they pop up everywhere. Also around the world, also in the US and stuff. And people go and you sing along to a someone to a karaoke song of, uh, of queen. Then there's someone who's, um, There's always a theme of the day. [00:40:48] Mm-hmm. Someone who has written a poem about that theme. Then there's someone who gives a talk about something. And then, um, so I, I actually also did a talk there about community building because of another project I was working on. [00:41:00] And then people stay together and they go together in the pub and, and stuff like that. [00:41:03] And that is really exactly what you mean. Yeah, [00:41:07] Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's so needed, so yeah. Yeah, I think so. I'm happy that you are creating your community for your people and, and yeah, I think there needs to be more opportunities for people to, to [00:41:22] Christine: commune, to get together. Yes. And also to get together, uh, in person. [00:41:28] I mean, we've never met in person. Hopefully we will next, uh, next year around this time, of course. Um, because I know you're organizing something, but. Everything is online and everything. It can be very difficult as well to activate a community and to get together and to have this community feeling, even though you're on the screen for zoom fatigue, this new word that came out, this new illness that all of a sudden happened. [00:41:50] But yeah, I think, yeah. [00:41:53] Sarah: Well, obviously everything we talked about here is, is kind of, well not everything, but a lot [00:42:00] of what we talked about here came from your book. So yes, please do. Tell us. Uh, and for those of us who are watching on YouTube, you can hold it up because you just got it today. Oh, [00:42:10] Christine: yes, wait, I have it here. [00:42:11] It's a first printed copy. Yay. The Happiness Formula. Thank you. Uh, you can get it on Amazon, basically on Amazons, but, uh, there is, uh, greatest startup academy.com/books where you can find that if in case you would be interested. Um, however, um, we are also for, for you, for the sense of this podcast, I would like to offer. [00:42:34] The Kindle book, at least the English version in this case are for free. So, Ooh. Thank you. Yeah. So, so when this one is, uh, aired, which, uh, is on the 2nd of June, I think. Yeah. Um, which is the Friday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, this book will be available, the Happiness Formula for three on Kindle. Wow, [00:42:55] Sarah: amazing. [00:42:55] So I'll make sure I use the right link where we can, uh, [00:43:00] download that and, and read about the habits and the goals. And there's so much else we had prepared but didn't have time to talk about. So yes, I'm just gonna have to read the book. Wonderful. Well, do you tell us, um, where people can find you, uh, your website again, where you most often hang out on social [00:43:20] Christine: media and all of that? [00:43:21] Uh, I think LinkedIn. Um, would be, um, one of the preferred ways to get in contact with me. Um, but you find everything on my website. Also the LinkedIn link on, on the bottom, uh, and the footer, um, to my profile. So if you go to creative startup academy.com, there you find everything, the book and also my LinkedIn. [00:43:40] Link the books [00:43:41] Sarah: because you've written like 20 books, right? Yeah. This is the [00:43:45] Christine: 20th. Yes. I got a bit [00:43:47] Sarah: obsessed. Make sure you celebrate because you tell everybody else to do it. So [00:43:52] Christine: make sure I, I, I, yes. I already celebrated when I unpacked earlier. Uh, and, and actually was running around and, and dancing and put a song on.[00:44:00] [00:44:00] And also my, my boyfriend was dancing with me, but we will celebrate more this weekend. [00:44:05] Sarah: Yes. Nice. I always have one last question on my podcast, and it's actually also, uh, another thing we skipped, which is gratitude. Uh, so what are you grateful for today? [00:44:17] Christine: Um, uh, this week apart from being grateful to have, uh, this opportunity to spread more joy and happiness, uh, in people's life, I think. [00:44:26] One, there's two big things I'm very grateful for. First, I, uh, I found love. Mm-hmm. Finding, uh, the person that you want to stay with for hopefully for the rest of your life that will be hopefully long and healthy. Mm-hmm. Um, that's one massive thing I'm massively grateful for, and that's always going in my gratitude journal every day. [00:44:46] Um, and the other thing, uh, is really to have these new opportunities, meeting so many lovely people. So there's so much support out there emotionally and um, with business [00:45:00] advice practically and everything, and I'm really, really grateful for that, that people are so openly sharing and supporting. [00:45:09] Sarah: Nice, nice. [00:45:10] Two things to be grateful for. Yeah. I'm grateful for this conversation. Thanks for being here. Thank you. [00:45:26] Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope it put a smile on your face and maybe got you curious about Christine's book to learn some more Happy. Habits so you can get her book, and as she said, she's offering it for free until June 4th, 2023 at creative startup academy.com/the-happiness-formula. [00:45:53] So go there now and download, uh, your free version of the Kindle book for free until June 4th. [00:46:00] You can find out more about Christine and her work at Creative Startup Academy. Dot com. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join Christine and I in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:14] You can find out more about, uh, this at humane.marketing/circle, and I also hope to see a few of you at the storytelling like we're human craft, your five word life story workshop. On June 7th with Hillary Rio, you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/storytelling. You'll find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 65. [00:46:47] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like [00:47:00] we're human and selling like we're human. And if you're an audiobook fan, I have good news marketing like We're Human is. [00:47:07] Available on, uh, audible or everywhere else you get your audio books. So if you are kind of tired of reading, especially now as we are heading into the, um, nice sunny season, at least on my side of the world, maybe you just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the book while you're walking. Uh, again, you can look that up on Audible or anywhere else where you find. [00:47:32] Uh, audiobooks, of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon in.

Today I'm talking to Christine, a Humane Marketing Circle member and Creative Start-Up Coach about passion and happiness. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Christine Michaelis, author of the book “The Happiness Formula.” We explore the intriguing question of why some business owners find greater happiness in their endeavors than others. Throughout our discussion, we uncover a treasure trove of insights, examining the transformative power of habits that promote happiness, the art of setting achievable goals that foster fulfillment rather than disappointment, and the joy derived from being part of a vibrant community. Drawing from her extensive research and expertise, Christine offers practical strategies and illuminating anecdotes that are sure to inspire and motivate listeners to unlock their own path to happiness in business and beyond. So tune in as we embark on this captivating exploration of what it takes to be a truly happy and fulfilled business owner. In this episode, Christine and I share a conversation on: Why some business owners are happier than others Habits that make us happier How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed The happiness that comes from being in community with others Her new book ‘The Happiness Formula'  And much more Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:32] Hi, friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion, so we're back to the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you probably don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:07] That's the number one and the word page. This one page marketing plan comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a, you know, six step plan here, do this. But it's more like prompting you with questions that help you reflect on your different piece. [00:03:29] On today's show, I'm talking to Christine, uh, Michael's, uh, humane Marketing Circle, member and creative startup coach about passion and happiness. But before I tell you a little bit more about Christine and today's show, I'd like to tell you about our upcoming storytelling, like We're Human Workshop that takes place on June 7th. [00:03:52] As you may have noticed, I have this series of workshops, live workshops, with the theme of being [00:04:00] human. Something being human, right? And the idea is to look at these different concepts. Marketing strategies, et cetera, from the perspective of humane marketing and marketing like we're human. So this, uh, time we're looking at storytelling and rather than looking at storytelling from this, Hero's perspective, right? [00:04:22] Hint, hero's journey. We're actually looking at it from being human. So how are we going to tell stories that feel like we're human? Uh, I think we are kind of tired of the, uh, heroes, uh, stories and we'd watch, rather hear from a human level. Connect on this human level and in order to get ideal clients, we know that we, uh, need to bring more of us to our marketing, more of us to our story, but. [00:04:55] How, that's the question, right? In which stories are relevant? [00:05:00] Well, that's exactly what we're discussing in this 90 minute live workshop on June 7th, and I'm so thrilled that Hillary Ria, uh, my co-host will help you find your five word life story. And I'm really super excited about this because I. I'm so happy to have found a storytelling expert that agrees with me that, you know, the, the typical heroes journey story type is kind of outdated. [00:05:29] We need to bring more of us to our story, and that's what we're gonna do in this live workshop. So it starts from within. That's actually what we're doing. Instead of trying to fit our story into the story arc, the hero's journey arc we're coming from within. And there's still a, you know, framework. [00:05:47] There's still structure, but it really comes from within. So please have a look at the details at humane.marketing/storytelling and uh, join us for only [00:06:00] $27 for this confidence boosting workshop. Cuz once you. Own your story. That's when you're really going out there and resonating with your ideal clients. [00:06:09] Right? Of course, if you're already a Humane Marketing Circle member, you can intend all our workshops for free. Okay, back to today's episode. Let me tell you a bit more about Christine. Christine Marketing and creative startup coach, founder of the Creative Startup Academy, author of multiple books, public speaker, podcast and workshop facilitator. [00:06:33] She has worked in marketing and advertising for more than 12 years before she decided to start her own business supporting startups. When her hands-on approach, she has helped hundreds of individuals validate their. Business idea and create a successful startup, as well as working with small businesses, supporting them, getting clarity and marketing their business. [00:06:56] She sees entrepreneurship as a way of life and [00:07:00] loves the passion that comes from working in that industry. In our conversation today, we talked about why some business owners are happier than others and how to help, uh, those who are not always happy to get to more happiness. Some habits that make us happier. [00:07:20] How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed. The happiness that comes from being in community with others. Her new book, the Happiness Formula, and so much more. So let's dive in and be happy with Christine McKays. [00:07:40] Hi Christine. Thanks so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast. I look forward to this conversation about happiness and bliss. [00:07:48] Christine: Yes, thank you. I'm very excited to share Rod It and um, Hopefully make some people happy. At least smile, [00:07:56] Sarah: at least. We're definitely smiling. Uh, I just said [00:08:00] offline, I spent most of my day in nature. [00:08:02] We saw these little ducklings and you know, it's finally spring. Yeah, I'm definitely happy today. So, but let's, let's start with you like, you know, it's, um, I'm basically featuring this episode under the P of Passion, which is the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And so when you said that you're coming out with a book about happiness, I'm like, well, happiness, passion, you know, it's all these good feelings that we want to have more of. [00:08:31] So tell us yeah. What you are passionate about and, and then also obviously then we go into the, the whole definition of happiness and how do we get more happy as autism. [00:08:43] Christine: Yes. Um, well, thank you. First, uh, for having me. I'm, I'm very excited. Um, I know we've done so many things together and I know there will be so many more collaborations coming out of that. [00:08:56] Uh, and I think you can't find a more passionate person [00:09:00] about, uh, what they do. I know everyone is, but I really explode with passion when I, when I talk about, um, What I do and, and I just love it. Uh, and always I say I'm an accidental entrepreneur because I never wanted my own business. Um, but it had just happened and I absolutely love it. [00:09:19] And I only basically work with people because I work with entrepreneurs, um, that are really passionate about what they're doing. And that's lovely. That wraps off on me. And it really gives you energy, I think, um, when you, uh, yeah, when you work with people that are passionate. So what am I passionate about? [00:09:39] Work. Mm-hmm. In this case, my own company. Um, if we are looking from a business perspective, I'm really someone who loves getting things done and crossing things off the list. I, I really love, I'm, I'm like kind of, I'm really passionate about having this and I used to not anymore, uh, have to-do lists for [00:10:00] personal life. [00:10:01] Okay, do the sports, uh, go out for, for a walk, wash the dishes and stuff. Now I don't do that anymore, and I'm learning more and more to also sometimes do nothing, uh, which is really difficult for me because I love to finish things also. That's not very strange. But I love to finish a shampoo bottle or to, to finish a product or something. [00:10:24] I have to, that's fine with me. Um, I know what you [00:10:27] Sarah: mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's kind of like that's. Oh, okay. We finished this, you know, and it's like, oh, we can move on to the next thing. [00:10:35] Christine: Yeah. And challenges work really well for me. If you give me a 30 day challenge, I will do all 30 days. Um, But what I'm really passionate about is as well, um, is making people smile. [00:10:47] I think really people always say, oh, what's your purpose in life and stuff? And this sounds very cheesy now, but I, I love making people happy because it makes me really happy and it's all interconnected and it's lots of science behind it [00:11:00] as well. Um, however, that really, that may, that, that's what I'm passionate about, spreading some happiness in, in swan's life. [00:11:09] Hmm. Yeah. [00:11:10] Yeah. [00:11:11] Sarah: So, so let's talk about this happiness. Um, what, what I was thinking about is like, you know, how come what makes some entrepreneurs, business people happier than others? And, and then how can we help those who are not currently happy in their business or in their life? But since we're on a business podcast, we can talk about business. [00:11:37] Um, Yeah. How can we help them to find back to being happy? [00:11:44] Christine: I think the very first thing, I mean there's also official definitions of happiness and stuff. The very first thing is obviously to know and understand, um, which probably people do that. Happiness means different things to different people. Um, however, there's also science [00:12:00] that shows what doesn't make happy. [00:12:01] Um, but we are gonna focus, of course, also on the things that. Will make people happy and also, um, business owners. So, um, I, I would say you would need to define first, what does happiness mean to you? What does success mean to you? Because therefore, for, um, entrepreneurs are often interlinked, um, let's say saying, okay, if I have success, That makes me happy and that makes also the business sustainable. [00:12:28] But what does that mean? It does not necessarily mean, uh, a lot of money. It might mean I help X amount of people with what I do, or I have an impact on society, on an, the environment, whatever. Uh, a specific, uh, success definition. I think everyone, uh, as a business owner should have. I, uh, again, I appreciate that we all have to pay the bills and that is a business. [00:12:54] Um, so it, um, it's thinking about the money, but not in, in the connection with [00:13:00] happiness really. So understanding what does happiness mean to you and your, in your business, um, and what does success mean to you? It's the very, very first thing. And then if we go into a few really practical things and steps into what, um, science has shown, what really works, um, and what helps with happiness and increasing your happiness, Is, um, investing into experiences in instead of materialistic things. [00:13:29] So because they create lasting memories and give you the sense of personal growth as well, and that overall can contribute, um, to a deeper understanding and satisfaction and fulfillment. And, um, basically when you do that, you prioritize time. Over resources. You prioritized, uh, your time and resource in a way that really align with your values as well and your personal interests. [00:13:58] So in business [00:14:00] or in personal life as well. And again, this can give you this sense of fulfillment, fulfillment and feeds into the purpose that you might not have defined yet for yourself because it's a very difficult question. What's your purpose like? Mm-hmm. I just talked to someone else who said, I don't believe in that stuff. [00:14:17] I don't think we have any purpose. And I was like, okay. Uh, that's okay. Everyone has their own view. Um, but really you can, you can do that. And investing into experiences. You also invest in relationships with other people. You create memories together. And, um, you also share that, that success with, uh, other ones. [00:14:36] And in that case, um, you can share successes, for example, that you had or the company had with the team, with co-founders. With, uh, freelancers that you, that you work with, if you outsource something with suppliers, with clients, you can share this. If, if the client had a success, you should celebrate that. [00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Not because, oh, I'm so great. That was me, but really because you're happy for that person. [00:15:00] Mm-hmm. And it will make you happy. So that would be the next experiences. [00:15:04] Sarah: I really like that because I just come back, uh, from, from an experience. So, so basically we have a mastermind, uh, where we meet every, uh, every month and every month that somebody else hosts the, the get together. [00:15:18] And so today, I hosted and so I just, I said, instead of staying at our place, let's go down to the forest because I'm. Lucky enough to live next to a forest, next to, um, a little water, uh, stream as well. And so, um, you know, it takes time though to take time of our, out of our busy lives, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, only five out of the 10 people could make it, but those who made it, we just appreciated it so much. [00:15:47] And then, like I said, we saw the ducklings, we created memories together, right? And, and yeah, we just. Felt really happy. Where had we stayed in our office and, you know, [00:16:00] maybe, yeah. Made more money or, you know, had another client that it wouldn't have given us the same feeling of happiness. I'm sure. Yes. It's, yeah. [00:16:11] It's really those times where you step out of the. Normal kind of, um, things that, that you feel these moments of awe and, and experience what you, what you said. [00:16:23] Christine: Another thing that, and also with others. I mean with others, exactly. You, you can go by yourself and you have a great experiences, but if you share this moment with others, the shared moment again as another. [00:16:32] Yeah. Um, yeah. So another [00:16:34] Sarah: layer of happiness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, um, point you make in the book that contributes to happiness is about building. Habits. Um, so talk to us about these habits. Why do habits, one could say, well, habits make it more boring. So, so how do habits make us more happy? [00:16:57] Christine: Yes. So building habits is [00:17:00] another thing like you just mentioned. [00:17:01] Uh, I just wanna mention three quickly other things as well. Um, before we jump into the habits, maybe because it's about the experiences, uh, that jumps back into that is the savoring the moment. Meaning that you really see and, and stay in that moment and see the positive side and aspects of things. And what you can do is you can share that with others. [00:17:23] So if it's an experience that you had yourself, um, to have a bigger impact, you can share this with others as well via the phone. Maybe a video, maybe a quick call, video call or something. Um, that can help that. Um, You can physically jump up in the air and, and be happy about things and, uh, stuff like that. [00:17:42] But anyway, just to, to, uh, combine that again with the experiences, so with the habits, um, because habits, um, enhance, can enhance if you're talking about good habits. Um, so, and these might have to be defined, but they, um, enhance really [00:18:00] your physical health, your mental health. Um, your emotional resilience and can really contribute to, uh, again, to this greater sense of purpose and fulfillment. [00:18:12] Mm-hmm. Now, creating habits, I'm gonna talk about this in a second, but, uh, engaging in hobbies or activities that bring you joy and there's a difference between joy and happiness. Officially there's this definition. Happiness is like the longer state and, uh, of something. The joy is the one that you have in that moment. [00:18:32] Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say find something that brings you joy outside of business also. Um, of course you should have joy in the business and what you're doing. But make sure you do find hobbies in, um, groups that you, um, go out with in nature and things that have nothing to do necessarily with your business. [00:18:56] Because I think as entrepreneurs as well, we [00:19:00] have difficulties to detach from work because it's always there and it's our baby and we're passionate about it so that we. Mm. Don't see that we overwork ourselves sometimes. So, uh, take some stuff out of there as well and create habits around it. Um, have regular working hours is a habit that I think everyone should have. [00:19:20] Um, when you ha work for someone else or if you work for yourself, have your own business. Make sure you have working hours set and don't work after those hours. There might be exceptions cuz maybe there's a podcast recording that you're doing with someone else after hours or. Um, you speak at an event and it's not possible to do otherwise, but the norm should be that you have regular set hours. [00:19:45] That's, I think, a good habit to have. Um, to have a end of work routine is something that I never had. And after I worked with someone, um, that was also a remote coach, basically that was one of the first things she said, [00:20:00] you should have. A habit, a routine when finished working because you can signal your brain. [00:20:06] Okay, that's it. That's the end of the work today, especially if you're working from home, right? Because, and you might be even in the same room and where you do other things, um, in the not have extra office. That's another great habit. Um, morning routines. I'm a massive fan of morning routine. Um, you don't have to be extreme, but having some kind of routine to start your day to wake up in a slower way. [00:20:30] I get up very early. I have almost two hour morning routine. Um, but where you involve different kind of senses, bit of exercise, doesn't have to be a massive exercise. Can be also yoga, some breathing exercise. Maybe people like to do visualizations in the morning, maybe to ride whatever you feel, what works for you, which gives you the time. [00:20:50] To wake up and to set up for the day. I think that would be a good habit to have. Um, healthy eating, which can be sometimes [00:21:00] challenging if you are in, in this run of getting things done. Um, Eating very fast. Even if you eat healthy stuff, uh, is also not, uh, recommended. And I'm still eating too fast. I'm, I'm done in six minutes with my whole, uh, lunch, which is, uh, not good. [00:21:19] I take an hour because then I do a walk and things like that, but the actual eating part is too short actually. Mm-hmm. Um, But eating healthy because it will give you energy, it will be good for your body. Um, and it will really have a big impact on your health and wellbeing and your happiness as well. [00:21:37] Sarah: What I hear is like there's a lot of habits that are actually more life related than they are business related. Um, and those are the ones who are really established as. Solid foundation. Right. Of course. Then we could also be speaking about, you know, create a habit to write every day, you know, [00:22:00] write blog posts every, like mm-hmm. [00:22:01] All of these other habits. But it sounds like the ones that really build a foundation and that make you happy, happy are, are more life related [00:22:12] Christine: habits. Yes. Yeah, because they, they impact you. Yeah. And the same with getting enough sleep. If you don't get enough sleep, you won't be able to focus enough during your day and get stuff done that you want to get done. [00:22:22] Right? So everything impacts your, um, impacts your work as well. If you don't eat healthy, you probably don't have enough. Uh, if you don't drink enough water, if you're not eating healthy, you don't have enough energy to get through the day, you will have a down point as well. Um, if you. If you don't give yourself enough time to wake up in the morning with a morning or dinner, that will impact your day. [00:22:44] Yeah. Um, of course these cutoff days and stuff that I mentioned are more work related, but yes, for sure. Yeah. I'm also [00:22:51] Sarah: a big fan of, um, I think it was Tim Ferris, at least that's who I heard, uh, talk about it. Uh, first is, is you know, kind of. [00:23:00] Minimizing the decision fatigue, like making, we we're making so many decisions every day as entrepreneurs, right? [00:23:08] Mm-hmm. So if you can just cut a few of these decisions and just have the habits, uh, for example, you know, I have oatmeal every morning, and that's just. Who I am now, it's basically who I am. It's like I'm Sarah who eats oatmeal with, um, turmeric every morning. And so then it just becomes part of you. I do yoga every morning. [00:23:30] It's becomes part of you. And so you don't have to decide, should I eat yoga today or should I not? And so that in a way that it's not boring to me. It just makes me happy. I look forward to my oatmeal every day. Right. Yeah. So, [00:23:44] Christine: and that's exactly the, the point of habits and, and because it becomes a habit, it's effortless. [00:23:50] You don't have to take a decision. It's just part of what you do. Yeah. And it's also okay, and I'm someone who also struggles with that because I'm so, [00:24:00] um, Chiefer mindset, uh, if you want to call it and crossing off things to this, but. It's also okay to be flexible if you stayed up longer, wake up later to get enough sleep and don't compromise on that part just to get your habit in. [00:24:17] Um, so I think this flexibility around habit building. Um, so they become part and become easy and you don't have to take the decision to do something. However, if for whatever reason you can't do it at one day, that's also okay. Yeah. And I think it, [00:24:33] Sarah: you have to struggle with, with yourself and say, okay, fine today, and don't do that habit. [00:24:38] Christine: Exactly. And just a, a couple of tips there. Um, maybe. And people have heard that before probably on how to actually build habits and how to create habit and to make it effortless and there's lots of science behind it. How long does it take? If some people say 21 days? Some people say, uh, 30 something, some 70 something, I think depends on the person, depends on the habit. [00:24:58] Hmm. Uh, getting rid of [00:25:00] habit is even more difficult than creating healthy habits. Um, but starting small. Is of course the, the really, the biggest thing. If you say, I wanna meditate every day, one hour, you won't, if you've never meditate before, if you say, I'm gonna take a mindful breath every day before I get out of bed, I can do that. [00:25:20] That's the smallest thing you can do. Take one mindful breath, that's like a meditation, or I do a five minute guided meditation from YouTube or stretching or something that probably you can do. Um, accountability can be something that can help. So find someone, uh, that you share this again, shared experiences. [00:25:39] Mm-hmm. They maybe the habit with, um, or you, some people like use tracking apps. Uh, right. Strangely enough, I don't, but, uh, I know there's a lot of happy tracking apps and stuff. Some people, for some people that works. Um, again, tracking the progress. Um, if you do yoga, like you mentioned, for example, if you.[00:26:00] [00:26:01] Um, you see, you get more flexible and, uh, it's, it's better and you have probably as back pain because, uh, we probably sit a lot in front of the computer with a lot of zoom meetings, things like that. A good habit to have is also have taking screen breaks, for example, um, not to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day. [00:26:20] Taking the breaks. Make sure your eyes can relax. Um, celebrating when you've done one of the habits, okay? You, you created something. So if you wanna do yoga, if you take a breath, whatever it is, then in the end, that habit is you celebrate that you did that. And that doesn't mean you have to then go out and drink something, or you, you go on a holiday every time you do a habit. [00:26:42] But it can be just like a Well done, Christine, a head on the shoulder. Maybe you wanna hug yourself. Maybe you look in the mirror and say, yes. Yes, I did that. Thank you. Good. That was good. That's like little celebration to signal your brain, that little success moment as well. [00:27:00] Yeah. Feeling more accomplished. [00:27:02] Um, and a final thing is, um, finding the situations and the support and the surroundings that help you to implement your healthy habits. So if you wanna establish something and your life and the people around you is not, just not set up for that. Then think about it and doing it consistently will help you to do that. [00:27:23] And um, I think the last thing they always say is, make sure you attach it to something that you already do. So someone said to me, oh, if, if you wanna do five sit ups in the morning, if we talk about physical exercise and you attach that to when you stopped brushing your teeth, Then you will do it more likely than trying to do it outside of something that you already do. [00:27:46] You wanna drink more water. That's why some [00:27:47] Sarah: people have their running shoes already out when they go to bed. Right, right next to the bed. [00:27:53] Christine: Yeah. Also, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this, uh, would be like, good, good tips. Thanks. Thank [00:27:59] Sarah: you. [00:28:00] Yeah. I, there's another thing I really wanna make sure we have time to talk about. [00:28:05] Mm-hmm. Um, which is goals. Because in a way, it kind of probably ties into our definition of success because we, as entrepreneurs, we set ourselves sometimes quite aggressive goals, right? Mm-hmm. And then we're not happy or we're sad if we're not achieving them. And so you talk about this idea of making sure that we set achievable goals. [00:28:34] Mm-hmm. Talk to us about that and how that makes us happier. [00:28:39] Christine: Yes. Um, well, because if we feel, um, first of all, if we are achieving goals and then we talk about how I usually set goals as well, um, then it gives us this sense of fulfillment that we achieved something, uh, we should always celebrate, we achieved the goal. [00:28:55] So it, it gives us a sense of moving forward. I think if you do not [00:29:00] set goals, it can be very demotivating in business. Um, and I always say, if you don't set yourself a goal, how do you know you achieved something? If you never wanted to achieve something because a goal is nothing else, then okay, I wanna get something done if we, okay. [00:29:15] Goal setting is a harsh, harsh thing and I know we all do it and, and stuff, and we're in business. Um, however, I think getting to a specific point where you want to be, It's already setting yourself a goal. And we all want to be somewhere. We all want to be, have specific impact. We all want to have a certain amount of money to support a lifestyle that we want. [00:29:36] We all, um, want to make work with X amount of people because then we know, again, we have that impact in that kind of way, so that that really can support making us happy. But one thing is extremely important. Goals might change. Goals are not written in stone like they say you can, it's your goal. [00:30:00] Well, I always say you have three questions. [00:30:02] Um, is it your goal, yes or no? Is it maybe put onto you by someone else? Um, especially when you work in a company and it's, you are not a business owner, then you often get goals set by other people. Um, does the goal excite you? And, um, if any of the answers to these questions is no. Revisit the goal because you will get demotivated. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. And then there's obviously a lot of acronyms and formulas and stuff that you can use to set goals and, uh, one of the most used ones is smart. I actually don't like that too much, even though it does work. But I, I just don't like it too much because it's always used in corporate situations and stuff like that. [00:30:47] Um, so I, um, use actually a different one, which is called Achieve, which already has a great word in it. Okay, so the acronym like that much better? Yes. Um, so it's basically stating a goal as if [00:31:00] it already happened. So not I want this, but, um, as as it, I have a successful business. Let's start with that. [00:31:08] Instead of saying, oh, I don't want to be in a full-time job. Um, then we have the C, which is clear and specific, so you need to know what that means. What does a successful business mean to you? Where is it with whom is it? How much many clients do you have? The turnover, because you will have to think about the money side as well. [00:31:26] Um, and then, um, be very clear and specific on that. And then the age is actually the hittable, which is. Achievable. Um, is this actually realistic? Too often I hear people that, oh, I'm gonna have, uh, this company that will have 2 million turnover at the end of, uh, year two. This is not realistic. Um, probably depends on the company. [00:31:49] Um, the I in Achieve is in a positive direction. So state what you want rather than what you don't want. Also has a bit to do with how the brain works. [00:32:00] Um, because they, uh, the brain does not understand negatives. Um, and if you give it what you already want, then there's a lot of research done that you will actually be more likely to achieve that e uh, so achieve, uh, is exciting. [00:32:16] So it should be exciting for you. If it doesn't excite you, I would not recommend. You're not gonna Yeah. Call, go for it. Yeah. And then the V is actually value-based. Um, and I think that's really important because, um, it should align with your values. You need to be clear on your values, what's important to you, what don't you want, what do you want in life, um, and it needs to align with that. [00:32:40] And then we have the last E, which is ecological. And basically what that means is who and what is affected by you achieving that goal. Because maybe you say, I want to have this company and I wanna run it in New Zealand. If you have a family, For example, or also friends or uh, husband [00:33:00] or children, they will be affected by you moving to New Zealand. [00:33:04] So you should check if they're okay with you achieving that goal. You might have less time for anyone because all of a sudden you have to work more. Um, and you check if they're okay with that. And if they are not okay with that, are you okay with them not being okay with that? That makes sense because it's your goal, it's your life. [00:33:24] But you, [00:33:24] Sarah: you're part of a bigger ecosystem and Exactly. You need to check in with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I like that achieve much better than the the smart. Yeah. Mm. It's, yeah. It's somehow outdated and Yeah. It's maybe it's also bigger. It's overused. It's like from the corporate day, so we're like, nah, we're getting Exactly. [00:33:44] Christine: Exactly. [00:33:47] Sarah: I love that. Yeah. Um, We both have communities. Um, and so I'm just wondering also what happiness and community, where they [00:34:00] overlap what they have in common. Um, yeah. You wanna talk about your community and then we can also talk about the circle a little bit. [00:34:09] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So in, in general, I would say just, um, to answer the question, what do communities have to do with, um, happiness? [00:34:17] Um, it's actually scientifically proven as well that soul through connection, doing things with others, um, is extremely important for happiness and it's crucial for your over overall wellbeing, um, and happiness. And I talk in, um, my book about that as well, a lot. Um, and they actually found that it's. If you are connected in a community, so that's even in a church or in our cases, right? [00:34:46] Sarah: Professional communities. Real life communities or [00:34:48] Christine: online? Yeah, online communities. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they, they've shown the studies have shown that you're less likely to experience, um, uh, premature, uh, [00:35:00] death and have more chances to survive fatal illnesses. Because it, it is a bit strange, but it's really, makes, makes total sense to me. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because, um, it will also build up for more resilience and, um, you will have a support system when you're going through difficult times. You will, um, less likely feel loneliness and isolation, have this sense of belonging and you can discover your purpose there as well. Um, and usually you are part of a community that you have shared values with, right? [00:35:35] And, uh, this is where our communities and especially also yours come in and we just be a part of something and we can create new experiences together. So that's based again, of the shared experiences. Um, so having social connections and groups and communities that you belong to really play a massive role in health. [00:35:57] Physical health really. Um, but also in the [00:36:00] mental, um, health and wellbeing and, um, what my community is, uh, for entrepreneurs in the first three years to support them with all kind of things, uh, support, uh, in, in resources and life support and with the community. Um, and yours obviously is a fantastic community of professional people, but that are not. [00:36:22] Mm. Because sometimes when people hear the word professional, they're a bit put off because they think it's like that kind of person that just thinks, uh, uh, about numbers and about, uh, how many followers do I have and, um, how much money do I make? And stuff like, it's not that you can, in my point of view. [00:36:39] And also I know everyone in your community you can be professional, meaning reliable. Um, Exchange knowledge. So you're knowledgeable as well in what you're doing. And I think your community's amazing for that because I've met so many amazing people, started already collaborating with them. And I remember the very first [00:37:00] session that I attended life, I had so much that I took out of that that I then implemented into my business, which really works as well. [00:37:08] Um, and you. All the focus is obviously all on humane and gentle, um, marketing techniques as well. And it, it's really, it's really lovely and it, it does give me that sense of, I found a tribe that I belong to because I can feel that we have, um, shared values, we create these experiences. It's very relaxed and, um, but. [00:37:34] Still professional. Like I say, [00:37:36] Sarah: I love to highlight that. Right. It's this idea, well, I guess we do speak a lot about being human, right? Mm-hmm. Marketing, like we're human. And so that's really what I've wanting, wanted to create is a place where we can be human. Mm-hmm. And yet still be professionals or talk about marketing and business and, and I think that's what also [00:38:00] creates the happiness because we are. [00:38:02] All being our authentic selves. I think that's what you also meant by the community where you feel like you can be yourself, [00:38:10] Christine: right? Yes. And you can feel that passion that everyone has. Yeah. So coming back to the passion that everyone has for their business, and again, if you, if you talk to people that are passionate about something, this will wrap off on you because it's positive energy and it will really, really gives you energy. [00:38:28] Because I, I know it can be sometimes difficult to attend a meeting after hours. Um, right. But every time I, I attend, for example, one of yours, which will be for my time, for example, at five o'clock, sometimes once a month, um, or twice a month. Then I do think, oh yeah, I had a long day. Yeah. But I do know after this meeting, I will be energized actually. [00:38:51] Right. I will be energized because of the people [00:38:53] Sarah: in there. It's experience, again, it's how we started, right? Yeah. It's more of an experience rather than just like, [00:39:00] oh, let me listen to another meeting, or, yes, yes. Because it's not that. Yeah. And, and I just, because you started talking about, um, you know, other communities, church, or mm-hmm. [00:39:12] You know, faith-based or whatever. It's almost like, at least in Europe, that's kind of diminished, right? Mm-hmm. We don't have. Or a lot of us are not really in faith-based communities anymore. And I remember talking with my husband about it, and it's like, we're not craving the church, but we are thinking, you know, at least his parents, they were very, um, involved in church and he's like, yeah, we had a place to be on Sunday. [00:39:43] Mm-hmm. And, and it, and we, you know, we did things together and stuff like that. And it's true that. It's almost like we need to replace that now. [00:39:53] Christine: Mm-hmm. And there is actually someone who is doing that across the world also very successfully. Uh, they're called Sunday [00:40:00] Assembly Uhhuh, and they're on purpose, uh, not religious based. [00:40:03] So, um, he's actually saying, I don't believe in any gods or anything, but he believes in community and he creating those places where people go every Sunday. And have fun together. So I went to a lot of these in when I was in the UK because the guy who founded it, um, Who's also was hosting some of my events that I was doing across Europe, actually, because he's a comedian. [00:40:27] Um, they're really amazing events because people go there, you meet the same, and they, they're like a franchise. So people, they pop up everywhere. Also around the world, also in the US and stuff. And people go and you sing along to a someone to a karaoke song of, uh, of queen. Then there's someone who's, um, There's always a theme of the day. [00:40:48] Mm-hmm. Someone who has written a poem about that theme. Then there's someone who gives a talk about something. And then, um, so I, I actually also did a talk there about community building because of another project I was working on. [00:41:00] And then people stay together and they go together in the pub and, and stuff like that. [00:41:03] And that is really exactly what you mean. Yeah, [00:41:07] Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's so needed, so yeah. Yeah, I think so. I'm happy that you are creating your community for your people and, and yeah, I think there needs to be more opportunities for people to, to [00:41:22] Christine: commune, to get together. Yes. And also to get together, uh, in person. [00:41:28] I mean, we've never met in person. Hopefully we will next, uh, next year around this time, of course. Um, because I know you're organizing something, but. Everything is online and everything. It can be very difficult as well to activate a community and to get together and to have this community feeling, even though you're on the screen for zoom fatigue, this new word that came out, this new illness that all of a sudden happened. [00:41:50] But yeah, I think, yeah. [00:41:53] Sarah: Well, obviously everything we talked about here is, is kind of, well not everything, but a lot [00:42:00] of what we talked about here came from your book. So yes, please do. Tell us. Uh, and for those of us who are watching on YouTube, you can hold it up because you just got it today. Oh, [00:42:10] Christine: yes, wait, I have it here. [00:42:11] It's a first printed copy. Yay. The Happiness Formula. Thank you. Uh, you can get it on Amazon, basically on Amazons, but, uh, there is, uh, greatest startup academy.com/books where you can find that if in case you would be interested. Um, however, um, we are also for, for you, for the sense of this podcast, I would like to offer. [00:42:34] The Kindle book, at least the English version in this case are for free. So, Ooh. Thank you. Yeah. So, so when this one is, uh, aired, which, uh, is on the 2nd of June, I think. Yeah. Um, which is the Friday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, this book will be available, the Happiness Formula for three on Kindle. Wow, [00:42:55] Sarah: amazing. [00:42:55] So I'll make sure I use the right link where we can, uh, [00:43:00] download that and, and read about the habits and the goals. And there's so much else we had prepared but didn't have time to talk about. So yes, I'm just gonna have to read the book. Wonderful. Well, do you tell us, um, where people can find you, uh, your website again, where you most often hang out on social [00:43:20] Christine: media and all of that? [00:43:21] Uh, I think LinkedIn. Um, would be, um, one of the preferred ways to get in contact with me. Um, but you find everything on my website. Also the LinkedIn link on, on the bottom, uh, and the footer, um, to my profile. So if you go to creative startup academy.com, there you find everything, the book and also my LinkedIn. [00:43:40] Link the books [00:43:41] Sarah: because you've written like 20 books, right? Yeah. This is the [00:43:45] Christine: 20th. Yes. I got a bit [00:43:47] Sarah: obsessed. Make sure you celebrate because you tell everybody else to do it. So [00:43:52] Christine: make sure I, I, I, yes. I already celebrated when I unpacked earlier. Uh, and, and actually was running around and, and dancing and put a song on.[00:44:00] [00:44:00] And also my, my boyfriend was dancing with me, but we will celebrate more this weekend. [00:44:05] Sarah: Yes. Nice. I always have one last question on my podcast, and it's actually also, uh, another thing we skipped, which is gratitude. Uh, so what are you grateful for today? [00:44:17] Christine: Um, uh, this week apart from being grateful to have, uh, this opportunity to spread more joy and happiness, uh, in people's life, I think. [00:44:26] One, there's two big things I'm very grateful for. First, I, uh, I found love. Mm-hmm. Finding, uh, the person that you want to stay with for hopefully for the rest of your life that will be hopefully long and healthy. Mm-hmm. Um, that's one massive thing I'm massively grateful for, and that's always going in my gratitude journal every day. [00:44:46] Um, and the other thing, uh, is really to have these new opportunities, meeting so many lovely people. So there's so much support out there emotionally and um, with business [00:45:00] advice practically and everything, and I'm really, really grateful for that, that people are so openly sharing and supporting. [00:45:09] Sarah: Nice, nice. [00:45:10] Two things to be grateful for. Yeah. I'm grateful for this conversation. Thanks for being here. Thank you. [00:45:26] Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope it put a smile on your face and maybe got you curious about Christine's book to learn some more Happy. Habits so you can get her book, and as she said, she's offering it for free until June 4th, 2023 at creative startup academy.com/the-happiness-formula. [00:45:53] So go there now and download, uh, your free version of the Kindle book for free until June 4th. [00:46:00] You can find out more about Christine and her work at Creative Startup Academy. Dot com. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join Christine and I in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:14] You can find out more about, uh, this at humane.marketing/circle, and I also hope to see a few of you at the storytelling like we're human craft, your five word life story workshop. On June 7th with Hillary Rio, you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/storytelling. You'll find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 65. [00:46:47] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like [00:47:00] we're human and selling like we're human. And if you're an audiobook fan, I have good news marketing like We're Human is. [00:47:07] Available on, uh, audible or everywhere else you get your audio books. So if you are kind of tired of reading, especially now as we are heading into the, um, nice sunny season, at least on my side of the world, maybe you just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the book while you're walking. Uh, again, you can look that up on Audible or anywhere else where you find. [00:47:32] Uh, audiobooks, of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon in.

Discover the secrets to unlocking employee engagement in this eye-opening episode of the Count Me In Podcast. Join us as we welcome Sarah Rubenstein, Chief Accounting Officer at Clearway Energy, as she shares valuable insights into employee engagement, strategies to transform disengaged employees, and the importance of creating inclusive communities within the workplace. Don't miss this chance to learn how to maximize productivity and employee satisfaction in your organization! Connect with Sarah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-rubenstein-a724632/ Full Episode Transcript:Adam:            Welcome back to Count Me In. In today's episode, we're thrilled to have Sarah Rubenstein, Chief Accounting Officer at Clearway Energy. With us to discuss the crucial role that employee engagement plays in an organization's success.  Sarah brings her extensive experience in cultivating positive work environments to the table. Offering valuable advice on identifying disengaged employees, implementing effective strategies to boost engagement, and the benefits of fostering an inclusive, collaborative workspace. Stay tuned as we uncover the keys to unlocking a happy, productive, and thriving work environment. Adam:            Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the Count Me In podcast, today. We're really excited to have you on, and today we're going to be talking about employee engagement and all that that encompasses. And maybe to start off, maybe, you can start by defining what is employee engagement to you. Sarah:            Sure, to me, employee engagement is how positive people feel about their work, and we measure that in a lot of different ways. But, really, I'm lucky, the company that I work at, we survey our employees every year, regarding employee engagement. And we ask some really good questions that were developed by very smart people at Harvard, and Yale, and Stanford, that tell us how engaged people are.  And, so, we're able to evaluate, and a lot of the questions relate to things like management, leadership, integrity, work-life balance, workload, allocation, autonomy, and things like that. And all of those factors really tell us how engaged our employees are. Adam:            That's interesting, and when you mention engaged, a lot of times when you see discussions about employee engagement. You see engaged employees versus disengaged employees. And, so, maybe we can start by talking about that a little bit. Because you have your engaged employees, and you can usually tell who those are. But the disengaged maybe a little harder to see, or maybe not so hard, depending on what they're not doing, I should say. Sarah:            Yes, sure, and the first indication we have, that some employees are not engaged, is that they don't answer the surveys. So we don't get 100% participation. So that tells us that some people feel like maybe their voice won't be heard, even if they answer. And those people, usually, just have a negative outlook, maybe, on what type of work they're doing or their future within the company.  And, so, a lot of times, you lose the engagement when people feel like there's no career development path for them, or the work that they're doing isn't valuable, or they're not being told that the work that they're doing is valuable. Adam:            And that can be very difficult for an employee, especially, when you don't feel like you can't move up in an organization. How do you take somebody who is disengaged and try to get them to be engaged? Sarah:            That's a great question, and, especially, when you don't have a development path for a person, it is really challenging. And, so, what we try to do is we try to provide a lot of personal and professional development opportunities. And we talk to our employees about how those types of opportunities can help them develop themselves. Whether for this particular company and role or just in general for their career. So we try to offer them opportunities to learn and also to, maybe, work in an area that isn't related to their job.  So we try to look for things we call stretch assignments. Where there might be an opportunity in another group, where someone needs help with a special project, and that might give that individual the opportunity to learn new skills that they can put on their resume, even if it doesn't give them direct path to promotion. So we try to demonstrate what we can offer the employee, even if it isn't upward mobility, and that maybe we can't keep them forever, but we can keep them a little bit longer, and that helps us overall. Adam:            Yes, because it shows that you care and that you're engaging with them, even though they seem to be disengaged. And, so, it encourages them, even if there is no upper mobility at that moment. Sarah:            Right, because everyone is looking for some type of personal development, even if they don't see a future for themselves at that company. So we try to offer something for everyone. If you don't see yourself as a leader at this company, that's okay, we'll work with you on how you can make yourself a better employee and a better person. So that, at least, we can keep you around, and have you feel happy to be working at the company for the time being. Adam:            Mh-hmm, that makes a lot of sense. So maybe we can focus a little bit on what are some benefits, to organizations, to creating an engaging environment? Sarah:            I haven't read all of the studies, but there are numerous studies that show that engaged employees are better employees, they're more productive. Of course, we know that hiring new employees, and training them, and getting them up to speed is very expensive and time-consuming. And, so, it benefits us to take the time to develop programs to promote employee engagement. Because, overall, we end up with better productivity and just a better workforce. Adam:            I mean, that makes a lot of sense to want to have a better workforce, especially, when they're engaged. And, so, maybe, we can talk a little bit about what do you need to look for, especially, when your team is not engaged. Are there certain signs that you can look for? Obviously, you mentioned you can tell people are not engaged when they're not taking a survey. But then what are other signs that you can look for, within your team, if you can talk a little bit about that? Sarah:            Yes, no problem, I think, there are  a couple of different signs that I look for. Generally, I look for people who aren't participating in the conversations, who don't speak up in meetings. People who have been doing the same work for an extended period of time. And, of course, you look for the signs of people who are not responsive. They're taking a long time to reply to emails or teams' messages.  Those are all signs we look for, for people who aren't engaged. And then we really try to find ways to bring them into the conversation. To make them feel like we're committed to their success, and that we're interested in having them as part of the conversation. Adam:            Do you think that having engaged people with the not so engaged people, connecting them together, that can help drive or improve a team? Sarah:            I definitely do. Maybe one other thing I'll say about employees who aren't engaged is they tend to leave. So, really, our primary focus on employee engagement started when, and I won't say it started, we've always had a focus on it. But we renewed that focus when the great resignation occurred. We were hearing about that.  It didn't really happen at my company. But we were very concerned that once everyone was out of sight, out of mind, working remote from home, people might start to feel disengaged when they're working on their own. Without interacting with others. They might start to look at other jobs online while they're at home and things like that.  So we really wanted to focus on making sure that didn't happen. So we started some programs that were designed, specifically, to promote employee engagement. And one of those was a mentoring program within the accounting department.  So we matched up individuals who were at lower levels with our managers and directors, so that the managers and directors could give the staff-level folks an idea of how they could get to that level. And also they could just give them the ability to communicate with someone they didn't work with all the time. So that they would feel more engaged in the overall department, and not just able to speak with their direct supervisor and their specific team. Adam:            That's great. Mentorship is a huge way of connecting different departments, different people, within an organization. And it also helps people feel like they're part of a community. Because a lot of times corporate structures feel like a prison, in a lot of ways, with the fluorescent lights and everything. And it sounds like you guys are building a sense of community. Has that been what you're looking to do? Sarah:            Yes, definitely, I would say there were two very large parts of our program were communication. So making sure that we had adequate amounts of communication across the department, and within the specific teams, and then collaboration, in general.  So having a team's channel for our whole department, where people could even just share a photo of their pet or something funny that they wanted to share. So that people do feel like they're part of a broader community and not just a small, little, group. And, then, I'll say that I'm very fortunate, I work for a company that is committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion.  And, so, two years ago we started inclusion groups, and those have been a really big help in employee engagement and in helping people feel like they're part of a community. So I will say for companies that don't have inclusion groups, yet, I think, it really is a big benefit to employees. Adam:            Can you, maybe, talk a little bit more about the inclusion groups? What does that look like? Sarah:            Sure, so, typically, they're focused around a specific group. So we have a women's inclusion group. A veterans' inclusion group. We have a Latinx inclusion group, things like that. But it's to give employees, across the company, the ability to connect with people that they relate to and then also the ability to share with the whole organization, the things that are important to that inclusion group.  And, so, it's really been great, both, for bringing employees together with people that they relate to. And, then, also, making them able to share that with the whole company and educate them on the issues that are important to them. So it has been really great in bringing our whole community together. Adam:            That's awesome, that's a great way of connecting people and also helping to educate the greater community, as well. Because a lot of times, if you only are focused on what you know, you never get to experience or understand what other people's experiences are, which helps you understand the human condition better. Sarah:            Right. And the other thing that's nice about the inclusion groups is that they have executive sponsorship. So the issues that are important to the inclusion groups are brought to the attention of the executive leadership. So they're then aware of what's important to their employees and it gives them a forum to do that. But without the inclusion groups, the executives might hear about it but it wouldn't, necessarily, be in a positive way and it doesn't give them as much exposure to it. Adam:            Mh-hmm, and it also gives people a voice who may not have had a voice before. Sarah:            Yes, and that also because it's open to anyone. It's nice that some of the people who are at lower levels, in the organization, can still become very active in these inclusion groups. And have access to people at different levels that they might not have access to if they didn't join that inclusion group. Adam:            Mh-hmm, that's awesome. So we're thinking about engagement, I want to talk a little bit about what are some drivers that bring employees to become engaged or to engagement, within an organization. And maybe you can talk about some drivers that have helped your organization, as you've seen it, especially, over the last two years? Sarah:            Yes, the main one that I see is employee development because it demonstrates that you care about your employees and their own career. And, so, that you're not just worried about the company or yourself. You care about that person and how they can grow themselves. So we've focused a lot on personal development. Fortunately, we have some really good training tools, online training tools. So we have a lot of programs that our employees have access to, and what we've tried to do is go through and identify some that would be useful to people. So they don't have to go combing through a thousand training programs. So leadership training and teaching them how to manage people and how to improve their interpersonal communications. And then technical training to help them develop their technical skills, so that they can perform their job better or be able to potentially move into a different role.  We have a really good opportunity for our employees to receive coaching, which a lot of our managers have taken advantage of. Which is really great because it gives them a chance to work with a trained coach, to improve the skills that need improvement.  So that they can work to become future leaders of the company. And, then, I mentioned before the stretch assignments. But all of those things have been really helpful, showing our commitment to the development of our employees. And, then, the other area, I'd say, especially, during the last couple of years people have really looked for is just empathy and understanding. We're very aware that everyone has things that they need to do outside of work. We're very respectful of people's time with their families.  We're flexible in work arrangements and we try to be aware of what's happening in people's lives. So that we can make sure that we're not putting too much work on them. If they have something they're dealing with outside of work that they need to focus on. And I will say we've gotten really positive feedback, when we do take the time to show that we care about our employees, as individuals, it makes them feel very positive towards the company. So things like that really pay off.  And, then, the third area would be recognition. So I think that recognizing the positive contributions of your employees, has a huge benefit. And some studies show even more than compensation, I don't know if that's true or not. But it really does help to ensure that people know how much you appreciate them.  And, so one thing we've started to do is we have a quarterly meeting for our entire department. And every quarter I ask people to nominate people that they work with, that they think have done something that was, particularly, special or helpful. And, so, then we acknowledge that in front of the whole group, and that really goes a long way towards making people feel really appreciated and that the work that they do doesn't go unnoticed. Adam:            That's amazing to hear, and in the conversations that I've been having, even just in this podcast. It seems like the common theme is that we've all understood our human condition outside of the corporate structure. And recognize that it's okay to have a kid run into the room when you're in the middle of a meeting, or a dog barking, because that's just life. And you can still have your meeting and still be professional in the midst of all those things, and it kind of brought us all together at the same level. Sarah:            Yes, I agree. And it is true, you do observe those things happen to executive vice presidents, down to staff-level people. Especially when we were all home, we're all dealing with the same type of things going on, and it does help everyone feel like we can relate to one another. Adam:            Yes. And, so, as we look forward into the future, a lot of people have moved to a hybrid situation, or all in the office, or partially in the office, every organization is different. How do you think we can continue engaging employees in the midst of rising costs? In the midst of shareholders saying, "Hey, okay, you had your little break from the COVID now you need to get back going there." And a lot of organizations are finding it difficult to find that balance. Because workloads are starting to increase, as people are increasing what they want out of their employees. How do you balance that? Sarah:            That's a great question and it is really difficult. I'll tell you my experience because we have our own struggle with bringing people back to the office. And we're recommitting to a hybrid work schedule because we had attempted one, and people still really wanted to work, primarily, from home. And it's hard because people do want the flexibility of working from home. And we know that they're very productive at home.  I think that we've tried to emphasize, to our employees, that "We know you're productive from home. We're not worried about productivity. But we want people to have that human connection. Because it is an important part of engagement to talk to people in-person, and just have a conversation that's not related, primarily, to work.  And, so, we're going to renew our enthusiasm for encouraging people to come to the office two days a week, and we are emphasizing that we're going to be very flexible with the time that people arrive and the time they have to leave.  We understand they have commitments outside of work. And, then, it still gives them a few days a week to work from home, and have those really productive stretches of uninterrupted work. Where they're not having to drive to the office or someone is not stopping in to say hello. And, hopefully, this gives everybody the best of both worlds.  Where they can have those two days with the in-person interaction, maybe some visibility to higher level executives that they can't get from home. But then still have that uninterrupted time at home, the productive time, and that flexibility to not have to commute.  And then the other thing that we're trying to do, we did this year, was we did have a, and, although, it's expensive, but we got our whole team together in one location, for a couple of days to just do some training, and some brainstorming, and some planning for the future. And it was such a great experience and everyone really loved being together in-person, and being able to brainstorm together. And then everyone left feeling renewed about the future and excited. And, so, I think, that goes a long way towards keeping everybody engaged, is having that opportunity to all come together. Adam:            Yes, there's something about the human connection and seeing somebody, as opposed to as you and I are, we're looking at each other through little webcams. But sitting across the table from somebody, there's a huge difference in that connection point. And I think we do need that, as humans, we need that human touch. And, especially, getting out of the house every once in a while is good for everybody. Sarah:            Yes, I think so, I enjoy the two days a week in the office, and then I enjoy the rest of the week working from home. So I'm hopeful that the hybrid approach works. Adam:            I am too. I think this is the new normal, is hybrid, because everybody recognized, "Hey, we can be successful working from home and be just as productive, if not more productive." And then finding that balance will be the way forward. Because if you can't adjust your organization to be a hybrid, then, you might find more resignation. Because people are like, "I'll go to someplace where they will let me do that." Sarah:            Yes, and that's a fear that a lot of companies have and, especially, in accounting because there are a lot of jobs. If people want to work fully remote, then, they will. So we're trying to emphasize what are the benefits you get from being around people. We understand there's benefits to being home, and that's very appealing. So we're trying to show the appeal of the two days in-person, and the opportunity to interact with people and benefit from those in-person connections and interactions. Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast. Providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting finance profession. If you like what you heard, and you'd like to be counted in, for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.

Let me tell you about today's guest, Alexander Inchbald. Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 changemakers to create their Masterpiece and become Rainmakers. He is the founder of the #Masterpiece Movement, a growing community of pioneers, changemakers, misfits and rebels. Together with other likeminded communities they are creating a system that will sustain humankind. Alexander is a global authority on creativity: how we master our mind and body during the act of creation so we create a Masterpiece. He has studied Masters from the worlds of art, science, religion and leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, physiology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimenting with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. The story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. He is a bestselling author a few times over, has worked on all of the United Nation's Sustainable Development Goals and lives with his family above Lake Geneva In today's episode, Alex and I talk about: The story of money, from the industrial revolution until today What this means to us today WooWoo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle and why it prevents us from building business that make money Reclaim the artist as well as the art director How we can change our relationship to money The inner and outer game The role of creativity (and the right brain) in making money Why can can't neglect the left brain And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:29] Hello, friends. Today I have another deep and intriguing conversation for you, and it falls under the P of pricing. It's more about money, but money has to do with pricing, right? If you're irregular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page humane.marketing, not.com humane.marketing. [00:03:09] One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint or a step-by-step or cookie cutter approach. It's, uh, not perspec prescriptive, but it really is, um, helping you to reflect on your seven Ps for humane marketing. [00:03:37] So today I'm speaking to my new friend, Alexander Ald, whom I, I've met in December at a lovely fondue afternoon with nine other beautiful human beings, and we somehow telepathically connected and he gifted me his book Masterpiece, which is truly a masterpiece. [00:04:00] And, uh, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. [00:04:03] And. Obviously, like I said, going to talk about money, pricing, and also this idea of the masculine and the feminine energy, but mainly the masculine because money has to do with masculine energy. Before, I'll tell you a little bit more about Alexander. I'll also invite you in the behind the scenes of my pricing journey with our community. [00:04:28] The Humane Marketing Circle. I started this community in late 2019. It has been kind of going already in a small group before, and for the first year, people could basically join for free as part of, uh, my book launch on Kickstarter, and they were free members for a full. And then obviously, you know what happened in 20 20 20, uh, and then whoever wanted to stay after 2020, [00:05:00] they, uh, paid 20 bucks per month. [00:05:03] Then I increased it to 37, uh, dollars per month and then to 47, and now it's back at 37. You know, economic circumstances and all of that. But meanwhile, more people joined. We added a second monthly call. We moved from, uh, tr a Trello board, which was very simplistic, and it worked for a while for us. But now we're kind of going pro onto a new online platform. [00:05:35] And now we have an engaged online component to the community, and we're hosting that on cajabi, which I kind of joke about. It's, it's very much like us, um, because Cajabi bought this new, um, platform just recently. And so it's a, it. Kind of the little sister of Mighty Networks. It has big dreams, and yet it's [00:06:00] not perfect yet. [00:06:00] And that kind of reminds me of ourselves as a quietly rebellious and, uh, heart-centered changemakers and marketers. You know, uh, we're not perfect. We we're, uh, doing our very best and that's what our online platform is like. And, and so yeah, people are loving it. And in January I hired a community facilitator, uh, Eddie, who's connecting men members amongst each other and really cry, creating this interconnectedness between members, which is so important in a community. [00:06:36] So together we have created something just beautiful and unique and. Totally ready for this new business paradigm that's very Aquarius oriented, you know, power to the people. Um, it's not a top down approach where I'm basically the guru and te teaching you how to do it. No, we're tapping [00:07:00] into our own personal powers and, and sharing what works for us and learning from everybody else what works for them so that we can then figure out, well, I'd like to do this in business and I, you know, this person shared this thing. [00:07:16] I wanna try that. And, and so it's, it is very much in this, uh, Aquarius energy. If, um, if any of you listening are into, um, astrology or kind of follow that even loosely. So yeah, we've really created something very beautiful and unique, I think, uh, together. And now it's time for me to bring in the masculine energy and walk my talk about creating sustainable businesses. [00:07:46] Um, I always share that with my clients and the, the marketing like we're human program. And even in this circle we talk about how just because we come from this place of giving and lots of empathy [00:08:00] and, you know, humane approach to business does not mean that we don't want to have a sustainable business. [00:08:07] We operate from this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, right? And this community has definitely been grown based on that principle, maximum sustainable generosity. And now has come the time where, um, I need to bring in that masculine energy and make it sustainable for me. Uh, beautiful things, good things take time to grow. [00:08:33] And we are at the point now where I feel like. This is just absolutely a gorgeous community. Uh, and now I do need to bring up the price because up till now it wasn't sustainable for me, and that's okay. Again, it takes time and uh, you can't charge the full price from day one. That just makes logical business sense, but now it's time. [00:08:56] So on May 5th, I'll be [00:09:00] introducing a new humane three-tier pricing that is, Conveying all the value you really get in this community and it's sustainable for the host and everyone else's work that needs to be paid fairly. I'm announcing this price increase not to use urgency to get you to sign up, but it wouldn't feel fair that I'm doubling the price overnight without giving you at least a last chance to sign up at the current rate. [00:09:29] You know, it has happened to me where I go to a website and offering, all of a sudden the price is like much higher and I'm like, well, I wish I knew about this. So that's kind of why I'm doing this. Um, now so. Again, um, if you've been playing with the idea of maybe joining us now is a good time, you'll still be kind of considered, I wouldn't say founding members because, um, again, I've been hosting this for over three years, so, [00:10:00] uh, it's not really a founding member rate anymore, but it's just kind of like this, um, you know, maybe a budding rate. [00:10:07] Like we. Add the verge of something that is going to grow. And, and, and if you get in now, uh, well, you get in at that $37 per month rate. The new rates will come into place on May 5th. Have a look@humane.marketing forward slash circle and see if, uh, this is a good fit for you. And we'd love to have you okay with that. [00:10:35] Um, and I hope Alexander is, is proud about me demonstrating my, uh, masculine energy here. So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Alexander ald. Um, Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 change makers to create their masterpiece and become rainmakers. He's the founder of the Masterpiece Movement. [00:10:58] A growing community of [00:11:00] pioneers, changemakers, misfits, and rebels. Together with other like-minded communities, they are creating a system that will sustain human. Alexander is a global authority on creativity, how we master our mind embodied during the act of creation so we can create a masterpiece. He has studied masters from the worlds of art, science, religion, leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, psychology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimented with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. [00:11:41] This story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. Alexander is a bestselling author a few times over and has worked on all of the United Nations, sustain sustainable development goals, and he lives with his family here in Switzerland above Lake Geneva. And [00:12:00] I've had the pleasure to, uh, be over at his house just recently with a beautiful view. [00:12:05] So in our time together, we speak about. The story of money from the Industrial Revolution until today. What this means to us today, uh, I get him to talk about woo woo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle, and why it prevents us from building a business that makes money, reclaim the artist as well as the art director. [00:12:30] How we can change our relationship to money, the inner and the outer game, the role of creativity, the right brain in making money. Why we can't neglect the left brain and so much more. Um, this is a deep conversation. It's a conversation where I use my. Um, left brain and Capricorn being to, um, you know, kind of ground and bring ourselves [00:13:00] back because, uh, Alexander can go really far into these concepts that I have to admit are, uh, sometimes even, uh, a bit far out for me. [00:13:10] So, um, it's a rainy conversation. So if you're ready for that, let's dive in. Hi Alexander. So good to see you speak to you today. [00:13:23] Alexander: Wonderful to be here. Sarah, thank you so much for having [00:13:25] Sarah: me. Yeah. Um, I was on a webinar with you last week. That was amazing. And then of course, uh, as I mentioned in the intro, we, uh, met in person, which is like so rare nowadays, right? [00:13:40] That you get to meet people in person. And we get to meet again actually, uh, tomorrow after this recording. So I'm looking forward to that. But, um, let's share with, uh, my listeners a little bit of the conversations that, uh, partly from your webinar, also from your book, [00:14:00] that you, um, so kindly shared with me and I entitled this, uh, conversation. [00:14:06] Can't remember the exact words, but something about money and masculine energy, because that's what I feel like. You bring to us, right? This kind of dance between the feminine and the masculine and what that has to do with money, uh, how art comes in as well, because you are an artist. So yeah. Let's, let's dive in. [00:14:30] Um, why don't you start with kind of like, um, an excerpt of the story that you sh shared in this webinar. Um, I was on last week, I think it was called, um, it was called The Path of Prosperity, right? That was the title. Yeah. So sh sh Start us out there. [00:14:49] Alexander: Wow. Um, you know, the Pathway of Prosperity is, is a model that emerged, uh, in Switzerland. [00:14:55] Last year I was working with a group of pioneers and one of my business partners, a guy called Peter [00:15:00] kk, and Peter looked at our relationship to money and has looked at it for the last thir 30, 40 years. Um, and he discovered some really, really interesting things when he looked at our relationship to money. [00:15:12] Um, And the modern conception of money was created and designed by some very conscious people 250 years ago, um, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. And the industrial Revolution kind of, um, represents the extreme of the masculine end of the pathway. So there's a feminine end to the pathway, and you'd have to go back 200,000 years really to the dawn of humankind, um, in the Great River Valley in Africa, or at least that's one history you could say. [00:15:43] And that was kind of all feminine energy. So what is feminine energy? Feminine energy is, is, is being in connection. And if you've ever been in a real state of flow, you feel that you're in connection with something, something greater, um, than yourself. And somehow the energy of creativity [00:16:00] flows through you. [00:16:00] So just go to a moment like that. Maybe it was a moment you. Deeply in love with somebody in front of you, or a moment that you, you know, you created a painting and it just hours flew by or, or you finished a report at that moment. Actually the mind isn't really very active. You, you're just kind of in a state of connection or in a state of communion. [00:16:20] And then the opposite end of that is, is the industrial age. Um, and the industrial age. We've gone from kind of being connected to all of it, um, to being a cog in a wheel. Um, and the pathway, we actually talk about the pathway all the way from this to this. But, um, that takes about an hour. So, so I'm not gonna do that in this conversation. [00:16:40] Let, let me start this end. Let's work our way back. So this is the pathway of separation, moving from being connected to, disconnected from being part of all of it, to being a cog, a cove machine. And so if we, if we look at the, the industrial age, what did we say? We said, well, [00:17:00] um, life expectancy was pretty short, kind of, uh, 30 to 50 years, um, in most advanced countries in the world. [00:17:07] Um, and how do we, how do we increase, increase our health? And so some very, very conscious people actually designed a system, a financial system, in order for that to happen. And it included things like interest rates. Um, but the externalities of that, according to Peter's research, are two things. Um, one is extraction of people, extraction of the resource of people. [00:17:30] In other words, led to the idea of the cog in the wheel. And the second is the extraction of raw materials. And those two externalities, at the beginning, they were okay, because if you look at the numbers, the numbers are incredible that life expectancy went up and quality of life went up. E extraordinarily. [00:17:49] Um, and num, those numbers don't lie. It's not like somebody's faked those numbers. I was looking at the work by hands roling the mind gap. You can go, go and see it, mind gapper.org. Um, [00:18:00] incredible. It literally shows how you increase the amount of earning and the life expectancy increases. In other words, there is a direct correlation between those two, right? [00:18:10] And yet that system also divided us. So it was a system of silos. Um, think of the traditional factory and even a factory today it divides things down into silos. And so that was the system two 50 years ago. And there's some organizations that still follow it today, the un not far from where you and I are sitting right now. [00:18:29] You know, it follows a silo-based mentality. Governments, they follow a, a silo-based mentality. Education, you know, in, in class we get taught maths very separate from science, and that's very separate from, you know, art and, and languages. And yet today when we look at the challenges we face there, They're horizontal challenges, not vertical challenges. [00:18:51] Right. And so that, that kind of model started to evolve. Um, and about a hundred years ago, it evolved from the silo based system, uh, which we call the [00:19:00] control system into the, the, the compete system when compete system, not just vertical lines. You add in the horizontal lines. So you see this in big business now, everything divided from, you know, the, the factory line into departments and teams. [00:19:18] Mm-hmm. And you, you kind of had groupings in organizations. And then what we started to see about 20, 30 years ago is, is a kind of emergence, um, of something which can be traced back way before this, but the, the role of the individual in the organization, um, and the philosophy shifted and the philosophy shifted from, from over here in this model, the control and the compete model. [00:19:42] It was all about what was good for the organization, was good for the individual. It's a very paternalistic top down. And this one started to become a little bit more feminine. It said, well, actually what's good for the individual is good for the organization. We started to see that in Silicon Valley. So, you know, the growth of Silicon Valley, um, [00:20:00] w was predicated on the idea of giving people time to do what they were passionate about. [00:20:05] Think, think of Google. They said one day a week, 20% of your time, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And that led to Gmail and Google Maps and Google Calendar, and 50% of the innovation and AdWords, 50% of the innovation from Google came from that 20% time. And yet, what we are getting to see now, 20, 30 years into, you know, the, the massive rise of the internet is the limits of that system. [00:20:33] And, and a new system has been emerging for, uh, 20, 30 years. Um, Behind the scenes. And what we're now seeing is these systems, which are all a variant, a different flavored, you know, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, let's say. And we're now seeing that actually ice cream isn't the answer. Um, [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Sarah: well I'm gonna interrupt you there then. [00:21:02] So if we continue this ice cream analogy, what is the answer though? Um, and also what does dad have to do with our money story? [00:21:15] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, well, I, I'm at risk of course, continuing the analogy and saying, well, we all get fat and get addicted to [00:21:24] Sarah: That's true. And if you, if, if you continue there, it's like, well, money makes you fat. [00:21:30] You know, it's like fat in terms of like too much. [00:21:34] Alexander: Well look exactly, and, and you, you are spot on because. What, what is really happening? Where is the money in the world? Mm-hmm. Well, it's in these three systems. So it's, it's in government bonds, it's in government treasury, it's in big business and it's in Silicon Valley. [00:21:53] And more money has been printed in the last 10 years than has ever been in existence [00:22:00] in the entire history of humankind. And 40% of that wealth, 40% of the world's wealth is owned by 10 men. Um, and I used to be able to get even more of my high horse in this and say 10 white men, but actually there are now two Indian gentlemen who are in the top 10 men. [00:22:19] Um, and despite that, all the other organizations in the top 10 were founded in Silicon Valley. So you've got this, you've got this lake, if you like, of wealth, and it sits. In these three systems, think of a dam, right? And you know, behind the dam you have, you have a lake and it, and it's, and it's actually held here. [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's being hoarded, right? Um, and, and the money is not flowing right. It's not flowing out of the dam. It's, it's jammed behind the dam. And that isn't very natural. Dams are [00:23:00] not natural things. You know, there are no natural dams in nature. There's no hoarding in nature. There's nothing in nature that actually hoards anything. [00:23:07] If you look in, okay, so bears hibernate, squirrels hibernate, but what they do is they store the food that they need to get through the winter. That's not hoarding, right? Storing is, okay, I'm gonna just keep enough that I need with me. Uh, and, and as nomads, we did the same. We, we just carried what we needed at that moment. [00:23:29] If you've ever, ever been backpacking, You know, the first day you go backpack and you're like, oh, damn, I was wondering whether I could swear that, uh, I'll, I've bought in like stuff, I don't need all this stuff. So then you kind of start throwing away stuff, right? And then you, you thin down your rug sucking like, this is what I need, this is all I need. [00:23:51] Sarah: So yeah. You're, you're saying basically the, the money is all held in behind that dam. The question I guess I have is [00:24:00] like, well, what do we, the people, um, what can we do as the people? Um, because you started to talk about this journey, right? And you showed, basically showed us history. So the question is, um, is the, is this history a linear path and things just kept, keep going worse and worse, or? [00:24:27] And I think, uh, I remember from the webinar, of course, it's not a linear path. Uh, it, it it's this shape of, um, the, the the figure eight, um, and the infinity sign. So tell us about the return of Yeah. Uh, you know, how, how it's gonna change, basically. [00:24:48] Alexander: Yeah. Well, it, it looks like it's linear. It, it really does. [00:24:51] It does. It looks like we're heading, heading towards complete collapse. And [00:24:54] Sarah: right now, uh, you know, most people are gonna tell you, well, Alexander, I don't know, [00:25:00] but right now it doesn't look like there's any return. [00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look good. I mean, you know, we are recording this, aren't we? Um, just after, you know, the second, uh, valley Bank has just collapsed, um, we're recording at the same time as, um, UBS is just made an offer to buy credit Suis. [00:25:19] Right. Um, we're recording at a time that. Uh, the Economist is saying that there's a hundred billion dollars in the US banking system missing. Wow. But that's, that's, um, an unwanted gap. And you know, I remember back in 2007, 2008, you know, the beginning of the financial crisis, um, and Lima's Brothers collapsing. [00:25:40] And, and I'm sure you do as well. And it kind of feels like we're, we're at a similar time. And yet I am less concerned about it than ever. And some people, you know, watching like, what you crazy? I'm like, no, actually thi this is, this is absolutely what is being called, uh, forward. [00:26:00] And so there is a world beyond this. [00:26:03] Um, and in fact it's incredibly exciting and amazing world. And everyone says, oh, the system's gonna collapse in Ajara Diamond's book. If you've ever read that about civilization collapse, uh, the whole thing is gonna fall down. Well, maybe, um, The dam actually, there are people standing on both sides of the dam. [00:26:25] So let's take it from the, the global to the specific. Let's take it from, from, you know, what's happening at a societal level and let's, let's focus it on an individual level because this one [00:26:37] Sarah: you are talking about. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Because I was just gonna say that cuz it's a bit out there, right? [00:26:43] And it's like, okay, it would be great if we can talk about, well, what does that mean to us? So yeah, take us there. [00:26:50] Alexander: Mm-hmm. So some of us are standing on this side of the dam and we've got big fat ca bank accounts and we're like, I'm scared of spending my [00:27:00] money because the collapse, you know, the collapse is coming. [00:27:04] If I read the, if I read the the papers, watch the news, read the Economist or whoever, the system's about to collapse. So I need to look after my money. In other words. We are hoarding more because we're, we're afraid. And then there are people on the other side of the dam who are, who are kind of looking at the dam going, oh, there's no money coming to me. [00:27:29] And so some of us, you know, some of us are on this side of the dam and we're like, the river's dried up. There's, there's a drought, there's no money flowing to me. Um, how do I, how do I avoid this? Well, maybe I need to climb back up and, and get this side and go back into this world. Maybe I need to go back into the world of business and get a job and just stop trying to create this new system, whatever this new system is. [00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] and then those of us who are in it are like, am I gonna lose my job? So we've got these kind of two different mentalities going on and it, Peter puts it like this. There are someone, us who are unconsciously. Pushing money away, and some of us who are running after money unconsciously, so let me kind of unbundle that. [00:28:18] Mm-hmm. You can actually see this in your own life. Like either money's flowing, uh, there's money in your bank account or there's not money in your bank, in your bank account. You, you can literally look at it and you could diagnose what's going on by the health of your bank account. Now the secret here is about flow and you mentioned that this is an infinite loop. [00:28:40] The figure of eight turn on its side, it's actually an infinite loop. And the secret is very simple. The dam is actually a belief system held in mind. The dam is actually in our mind and it's an unconscious thing. You're like, no, no, no. It really exists. Like [00:29:00] 40% of the world's wealth help help buy 10 people. [00:29:02] They keep, you can't deny that you know that the money is all in here and it's not here. Well, actually that's not true because there are people over here I know. And we could talk about at length. And they have all the money they need flowing through them and flowing through their bank accounts, and they genuinely are creating a new world. [00:29:21] So what is the difference between those people and, and you and I now, why is the money flowing through their bank accounts and not through all of our bank accounts? And why is the money stuck here? And actually what we find is that most of us have part of ourselves here and part of ourselves here. So in fact, we're doing a little bit of both all the time. [00:29:45] We're, we're kind of hoarding onto the money that does come in, um, because we're afraid of the drought and we're looking at the money saying, when is the money gonna flow to us? And so the, a lot of the work we do is about helping people to break down [00:30:00] this, literally this mental barrier, this mental dam, um, so that the money flows again. [00:30:09] And so that ultimately prosperity flows, um, and the natural design of, of nature is everything in flow. Mm-hmm. It, it's not building downs, it's not building restrictions. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yes. I, I hear you Alexander, but my rational mind is still has a lot of questions because you just went through explaining, you know, the kind of system we are in right now. [00:30:39] Um, and you know that 10 men basically own 40% of the wealth and they are not the ones that I would say represent the feminine energy or even like dual energy. They're the patriarchical, um, kind of not the nicest people on [00:31:00] earth, I would say. And I don't care that they own, uh, that much. So the question is if you're saying, okay, it's just in our mind, well, it's not, it's a reality. [00:31:11] And so the, the thing is, what I want you to, um, talk about is, you know, kind of this concept of owning the masculine energy Yes. As well. And probably more like where we're headed, because clearly right now it's not the case, you know? Yes. Like, we're not at this point yet where we're money flows to everyone. [00:31:37] It's just Yes. You just showed it yourself. So Yes. Take us to, to owning these both energies and, and what, what that could look like. [00:31:47] Alexander: Look, that's such a good question. Um, and brilliantly put, and just to be clear, Um, I'm not saying that that the 10 white men or the eight white men and two Indian [00:32:00] men are in our mind. [00:32:01] I'm saying the dam is in our mind, right? Yes. Right. So the dam is what is in our mind. Mm-hmm. Which is blocking the flow. And you mentioned going into the fem energy. So let's look at it from this perspective. Yeah. Because it's easier to look from down here, looking up at the down. But if we go all the way into the feminine energy over here, we are not separate from the whole. [00:32:29] We are part of mother nature. We are, we are part of it. We are an integral part of it. We're not separate from it. The separation only happens in mind. So the only part of ourselves that can sense the separation is our mind, but our essence, whatever we call it, is not separate from the whole. It's an integral part of the whole. [00:32:52] Right. So if we look at it from this perspective, and then we look at these eight white men and two Indian [00:33:00] gentlemen, and we talk about the, the patriarchy as you just did. And then we, we have all this kind of stuff coming up inside ourselves and we're like, I really don't like those people. That she's the person in that system that you like the least think of that person, that leader, that that individual in that system. [00:33:22] Whether he's an entrepreneur, I'm gonna say he, because undoubtedly it's a man in, in a, in a right. So probably a, uh, a business leader, maybe a politician, but just bring to mind that person. It doesn't have to be, uh, in North America. It could be, it could be somewhere in Europe, it could be, it could be somewhere in Russia. [00:33:43] It could be somewhere in. Um, in the East, right? So just bring to mind that person, and then think of the, the, the thing that you like least about that person. What trait do you like least about that person? And is it, is it, it's, is it corruption? Is it, is it [00:34:00] bullying? Is it misogyny? Is it lying? Is it cheating? [00:34:03] Is it manipulating? Is it bullying? What is, what is it all? What is that trait All above? Yeah. Okay. All of the above. Right? And you can write a long, long list, right? Here's the scary thing. When you look at it from the feminine energy that is part of us. If we are part of the whole, they are also part of the whole, and they are part of us. [00:34:28] And this is a horrible, horrible thing, a horrible realization because mm-hmm. You're suddenly like, oh shit. What? Really? No, no, no, no. Because the mine will then go, no, no, no. That's ridiculous. I've done my work. I've done my own work. I, I, that's, that's how I got here. Don't be so ridiculous. I, I worked at my purpose five years ago, 10 years ago. [00:34:46] I've been doing spiritual development work. I've been doing personal development work. I've been doing all this work for the last 15, 20 years. My whole life has been dedicated to this work. Don't be so ridiculous as part of me stuck over here. Well, if we are on the planet right now, the bad news [00:35:00] is there is, there is an aspect of us that is holding this system in place, that's holding this dam here. [00:35:08] Mm-hmm. This dam in our mind. So what can we do about it? And this is where you're absolutely spot on, that actually we need to re-embrace this masculine energy over here. And, and, you know, Carl Young talked about this idea of the shadow. You know, what's held in the shadow. What's held in the collective consciousness of the planet right now is primarily masculinity. [00:35:35] Cuz this isn't been going on for 250 years. It's been going on for minimum 5,000 years, probably 10,000 years probably. You can trace it all the way back to the moment that, um, well, 5,000 years plus civilization in Suma, where we started to create hierarchies in cigarettes and money and all these things, or 10,000 years. [00:35:54] The moment that we settled down and we said, actually, we can cultivate crops and we can, we can [00:36:00] domestic animals, in other words, with a little bit above nature. Or you could trace it back 40,000 years and say, actually it was the moment that the prefrontal cortex, you know, mutated and gave us consciousness and the moment that the larynx gave us the ability to talk. [00:36:14] So each of these moments are kind of moments of separation along this journey. And now here we are at this, at this moment in history right now, the most amazing moment possibly ever in human history to be alive right now. And, and most of us still have this, they'll have this wall. The wall will dissolve. [00:36:36] It will, it's inevitable for some of us, and those of us who do will just go on this infinite cycle within this life. And for those of us who don't, will go on this cycle, not on this slide. Yeah, [00:36:54] Sarah: I like that. Um, I think, so you, you [00:37:00] kind of talked about the masculine energy and embracing that, um, I think in your book, but also in the webinar. [00:37:07] He also talk about the ego, right? And it's, um, it's part of that, those shadows, um, that, that we need to look at. And in some of the self-help, more self-development, uh, personal development, uh, um, things you hear while you just need to like go of the ego and you know, that's how you're coming to this feminine energy. [00:37:32] You instead say, well, don't let go of it. Uh, look at it and embrace it and, and, and, and yeah, commune with it in a way, right? And I think that's exactly what's happening now as well. Um, in, in on the bigger, um, scheme is all of that ego stuff is coming up and. And we're, yeah, we're having to look at it as a [00:38:00] society and, you know, the big, um, kind of, um, people that we talked about with all the wealth. [00:38:06] Well, that's really coming up for them, uh, specifically right now. And, and so what you're saying is not completely let go of it, but take I guess the good things from the ego with you so that you can then apply those. Let, let's kind of bring it to a business owner level because li my listeners are, are entrepreneurs, right? [00:38:30] And I do feel like a lot of, uh, you know, I'm talking to heart-centered entrepreneurs, so already that kind of says, well, there are a lot in the feminine energy, uh, which is great, right? Which is exactly what we need, uh, more of, so we're on this pathway back to the feminine energy. And what you are saying, and I'm saying it as well in different words because I talk about the doing and the being, um, the yin and the [00:39:00] yang, right? [00:39:00] We need both energies to be an entrepreneur and to, you know, stay ground and, and, and claim our worth. And, and, and yeah, do sell Right to sell. We need, uh, some of that, um, masculine energy as well. So yeah, tell us a bit more about the ego and, and what, what good parts are in the ego, right. That we can bring back to, to business. [00:39:26] Oh, [00:39:26] Alexander: beautiful. Great question. Um, well let, let's, let's take this model actually, and, and flip it up, right? So this, this figure of a, and let's flip it this way and, ok. So now [00:39:37] Sarah: let's, now standing straight, [00:39:38] Alexander: it's now standing straight, right? Yeah. And the base is the feminine and, and the, the top is, is the masculine. [00:39:45] Mm-hmm. And now let's imagine that's a tree. Right? Mm-hmm. And this is your tree and your, your business. Mm-hmm. And what you wanna do is you want to attract more trees into your forest, more trees into your community is [00:40:00] right. And the bigger, the bigger your forest grows, the more sustainable it becomes. So trees that grow in forest live far longer than trees that, um, that are isolated on their own, on hilltops. [00:40:13] So let's, let's assume that what you're trying to do is, is build a forest. A sustainable forest doesn't have to be the biggest forest in the world, but it's a sustainable forest. It's a heart-centered forest center. At the heart of this forest is the mother tree, your tree. Now if you think about that forest, and let's say, you know, it's, it's currently a cops or maybe it's a wood, but actually the potential is to grow to a forest. [00:40:36] Or maybe you are just starting out and you've literally just sewed the seed and it's, it's a seedling or a sapling. But you know, you know the potential of it is not just to grow into a tree. It's actually to grow into a forest. And of course what you go is do is you go through growing pain. So let's see if yours are sapling, you may be blown away, away, you know, around by the wind. [00:40:57] And what we often focus on is we try [00:41:00] and, you know, we try and grow the tree, right? You imagine this like you're a little seedling and you're, you're like, grow faster and you're like, let, you're trying to pull this more, more [00:41:08] Sarah: clients, more, [00:41:09] Alexander: yeah. More clients. More, more, more, more grow this way. Mm-hmm. And, and of course that doesn't work. [00:41:13] You'll literally just pull the seedling outta the ground or you'll pull the sapling outta the ground. Mm-hmm. So what stops you from doing this is, is the roots. And in fact, the height of the tree is dependent on the depth of the roots. Right? And don't worry, I'm gonna get to, to this thing about the ego, right? [00:41:28] Um, so let's assume that the roots is the feminine, the roots is in, is in connection with all of it. What, what we call the purpose. And that the, the tree is your mission. This is what you're growing towards and you want all the other trees to grow towards this, towards this mission. And that creates a microclimate underneath which sustains life because it's not too hot, it's not too cold. [00:41:52] It helps the, um, the, to conserve the water that all the trees need, the nutrients that all the trees need, the minerals [00:42:00] that all the trees need. And then they share this underneath. So the height of the tree is dependent on the depths of the roots. The sustainability of the forest is dependent on the consistency of the canopy, but what stops the roots from growing deeper are rocks. [00:42:18] Now, most people would tell you to remove rocks. When you see a block, you remove the block. When you see the dam, you take the dam out. [00:42:29] But what if the rocks had helped you to get here? See, if you were to remove all the rocks under a forest, the trees would become unstable. Mm-hmm. And then they'd fall over. But actually if, if the roots wrap around the rocks, then the tree becomes more stable. Yeah. And the whole forest becomes more stable. [00:42:53] Sarah: It reminds me of what we just said before, recording, no pain, no gain. Right? The rocks are the pain [00:43:00] here. The rocks are the dark nights of the soul. Um, so [00:43:04] Alexander: yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And in our research we've identified all different types of, of pain. Pain around money, which we've just been talking about. We're either mentally hoarding it or we are mentally, um, you know, we're in a scarcity mindset. [00:43:23] Um, so we're pushing it away mentally or we're running after it power, relationship to power. So either we're standing at the top of the dam or we're standing at the bottom of the dam. And in order for somebody to be standing at the top, there has to be somebody standing at the door. In other words, in order for you to have, um, power over somebody, somebody unconsciously has to accept to have power over them. [00:43:46] Right. Oras, my partner, Jean Plip, puts it, um, obedience is the key to power. Mm-hmm. The third rock that we look at is, is love, because most of us were brought up in a world of fairy tales, Grims fairy [00:44:00] tales where, you know, the, the, the prince and the princess lived happily ever after. Uh, which implies that you are happy every after when you find your soulmate. [00:44:09] And so we've reinterpreted that, that modern myth is you can only be happy when you find your soulmate, which implies that love is outside of you. And of course, those of us who've done personal development work and a lot of it know that actually it's inside of us. And yet there's so remnants of that old model because it's so deeply embedded in society. [00:44:29] Mm-hmm. And then the fourth area is time. Um, that we, we constantly perceive we are running out of time and we've got to do things by this time. Um, and so these are, these are the four rocks or we procrastinate and these are the four rocks that we find underground. And what we've explored and examined is how you can embrace these different rocks. [00:44:56] Because in them is first of all the secret of how you [00:45:00] got here. Your tree grew, you grew cause the rock was there. And if you really embrace it consciously, and this is the difference, most of us are, uh, kind of embracing or resisting it unconsciously. And because we're embracing it unconsciously, we're not really embracing it. [00:45:21] We're pushing away from it. So if you take a, you know, you mentioned being very practical in business, let's say. Um, we are unconsciously pushing money, right? Let's come back to money. We are running a program around money. So we think money is bad, or money is our security, or money is our freedom. Um, and that, uh, in Carl's words is a projection. [00:45:51] So we're not seeing money as money. We're seeing money as a vehicle to something freedom or [00:46:00] away from something corruption. And when we actually embrace the freedom with or without money, we actually become truly free. Mm-hmm. [00:46:14] Sarah: But we can't, I think, I think in the book, yeah. Go on. Sorry. Yeah. I think in the book you mentioned surrender. [00:46:21] Right? And that I think is a big piece of that journey is to, you know, just surrender to. The rocks. And, and does that mean surrender to the ego as well? Because we started this track with the ego. So does that mean surrender to your ego, uh, as well? [00:46:43] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, I would say more surrender to the feminine. [00:46:48] Hmm. But in the surrender, what most of us forget is that the feminine to take the sea behind me. Right. [00:47:00] Um, but the canvas here, so this is a painting, it's a painting of, of, uh, M Blanc, um, painted a few years ago in black. And, um, it was pretty windy up there. Like it's what, 3000 meters? So 9,000 feet. Um, and it's pretty windy. [00:47:18] And you know, when the canvas is moving, it's very difficult for the feminine to feel like, uh, She can come out and play. So the feminine creates, mother nature creates, um, the divine. You know, a birth is normally through the feminine form, like, you know, new, new life comes onto the planet through the feminine form. [00:47:39] And so the, the, when the canvas is held, the feminine can come out to play. So the masculine is, is the easel and it's holding. And normally I tie with string from the corner so that the, the canvas is completely held. And if the canvas is held, then the feminine has the confidence to come out to play [00:48:00] so that the, the, the feminine aspect of this needs the masculine at a certain level of awareness, right? [00:48:09] It needs to be held in that way. And that's where most of us are right now. And most of us have, have observed masters and we're like, you know, look, look at Nelson Mandela or, or Mother Teresa, and we observe no ego, you know, look at, look at Eckhart. No ego. we're like, there's no ego there. Ego's gone. So we look at it and we go, oh, I know what I need to do. [00:48:33] I need to get rid of the ego. I need to get rid of the rocks. Right? But actually, that's like trying to climb a ladder by removing the runts. Mm-hmm. So if when you get to the top of the ladder, you don't need the ladder, but in order to get to the top of ladder, you needed the rungs in the ladder. So most of us look at that state and we think, well, what I need to do is I need to remove the ego in order to reach the top [00:49:00] of my mountain. [00:49:01] Actually, it's the inverse. The rungs of the ladder are embracing every aspect of ego and finding the gold in the rock, cuz there's gold in each of these rocks. And when you realize there's a benefit in, I dunno, security. And you find the conscious benefit in that, the gold dust in that you climb up a run and then you keep doing this. [00:49:27] It's, it's a, it's a very long ladder, by the way, really, really long ladder, you know? And like you, you can go on and on and on and on and on. Like, it's, it, it feels like it's infinite, right? Um, but at a certain point, you, you reach the top of the mountain, you're like, oh my God, I'm here. Then you don't need the ladder, but you do need the ladder to help other people get to the top of the mountain. [00:49:52] So this is when you build ladders for other people, right? [00:49:55] Sarah: So once you build your ladder, you can then help other people. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:00] I, I see how you, yeah. How you tie in the, the rocks and the ego and that. The point is not to let go of the ego, but to embrace it. Because we need both of these energies, right? [00:50:15] Yes. Um, Maybe just to kind of bring it down again to the level of, uh, the individual, the entrepreneur. Um, what I see a lot in, um, uh, the entrepreneurs that I work with is that, um, and, and I think in your book, you call it the woowoo Mountain, right? And I have my WOOWOO prompts in, in, in the marketing, like we're human book. [00:50:39] So I think it's very much needed today that we can go into the woo and that we can, you know, embrace our feminine energy. But you and I both make the point also to say yes. And you do also need, uh, the masculine energy, um, to [00:51:00] build a business. There's just certain things, even in marketing, you know, you need to look at your numbers, like all of these kind of left brain things, those are the masculine energy, and we need those for building businesses, and we need those even for, um, Yeah. [00:51:17] It, it's a structure, like you said, the easel is the structure. It's kind of like, um, we need both. We need the roots, which you said was the feminine, and then we need some kind of system or, or structure. Um, I love that. Yeah. Thanks so much for, for taking on us on that journey. What I'm curious, uh, kind of to wrap up, what I'm curious, um, about is, is, is this return and. [00:51:45] You know, we, we kind of briefly touched upon it, the, the communion. Um, what you, um, mentioned also is the, you know, the, these different, um, business models. So we started with, uh, [00:52:00] industrial Revolution. Now we're kind of still in the big corporate systems. So where is this going? Uh, what do you see, uh, as a new paradigm in terms of business and, um, yeah, humans. [00:52:16] How, how are we [00:52:17] Alexander: evolving? Yeah, so the, the, the big leap beyond the dam, um, if we, if we kind of put the tree back and actually the other way around and, um, we have the infinite loop, then the big leap beyond, um, the, the dam is, is a leap into what is variously known as as a teal organization. Um, it's a kind of decentralized organization. [00:52:40] But most people have misunderstood the decentralized organization. Um, and they think we, we go into co creativity and we immediately jump to communion. There is a step in between, there's a rung in the ladder in between this current system, Silicon Valley system, which is still extracting wealth, um, and this new emergence [00:53:00] system before you get to communion. [00:53:02] So the future is communion, and that's one end of the cycle. And then there's the other. And really what you're looking for is a constant flow between them. So in order for that constant quote to happen, you'd have to reclaim these positives, as you said over here. So what's the positive of the control system? [00:53:18] Discipline structure. What's the, the positive of the, of the second system? Focus, like steely, focus on, on whatever you call that thing is your mission or the uniqueness. Your promise was the third thing. The third thing is about shifting our mindset. It's about unlocking our mindset and moving towards a mindset where things can grow. [00:53:39] But the real leap is here. This is the leap. This is the leap that's emergent. And it's, it's like it builds on all of these. We think it's linear, but actually it's like the Russian dolls. So this is an outer Russian doll, and then there's another Russian doll here. And this one, to get to this one, you have to accept all of these [00:54:00] phases. [00:54:01] And what that means is that it's not co-creation, that's delusional. Wbu Mountain stuff. That it occurs because somebody is holding the space. What my, my partner Peter calls the source, there's an easel there holding the canvas for everyone else. And so there's, there's this famous book by, uh, Fred Lulu. [00:54:22] Fred Lulu, um, called Reinventing Organization, which kicked up a whole creativity, co creativity movement, and became a cult classic in 2015. And when Peter interviewed Fred, cause he knows him very well, he said, Fred, you only interviewed sources, didn't you? And Fred's like, yes. In other words, he was observing the canvas, but not realizing the role that the sources, the people, the founders of the business were playing as the easel. [00:54:52] What does that mean? It means. The holding at this level without the, the, the masculine, strong [00:55:00] masculine energy nigro is, is a mapp like this with bubbles inside, without the arms holding the space. Without that discipline, without that focus, without that structure, the whole thing falls into a mess. And I, I launched a company, um, based on the idea of co-creation. [00:55:18] I was the source of it. I had some incredible partners, really, really impressive people. And it collapsed. We never made any money. There was never any flow in it. So in order to create this system, we have to embrace the shadow of the masculine and the shadow of the masculine is encompassed in the, in the worst of the people who we see running this system. [00:55:44] And so I am incredibly optimistic, but it's not even optimism. I know, I know that, um, some of us are already doing this. And I see what's been created and it is phenomenal. [00:56:00] Phenomenal what has been created. I mean, I was speaking with my friend Heath yesterday, what Heath is up to, unbelievable. I mean, I can't give any details out at the moment, but you can feel the energy of what he is doing. [00:56:14] I'll give you one example. So Carrie is 25 years in the un, has created a parallel organization to the UN called United Cities in Google it. She's now the source of a 13 billion fund to realize the SDGs, uh, the sustainable development goals. Her mission is 10,000 cities. By the end of decade, she will do it. [00:56:34] I know she will. She's operating from that level of awareness. That's just one example. But there are, let's [00:56:42] Sarah: go back to the, let's go back to the, uh, individuals, um, you know, the entrepreneurs who are listening, cuz that's kind of like a high level example. Um, because I, I do have to say, I'm like, well, here I am always talking about co-creation and collaboration, and you [00:57:00] just come in and say, well, that's not working. [00:57:02] So what's the alternative then? Because if the ultimate goal is communion, then what's the alternative? If not collaboration? [00:57:13] Alexander: So collaboration is key, but the key to get to the communion is to appreciate that each of us have a role in that collaboration and each of us are tapping in as a source into something greater, whatever we call that. [00:57:35] So the collaboration happens because each of us take a marriage. In a marriage, you have two people, and we talk about us as, as a, as a something, but actually each of us are independent, um, beings. And we, we used to say in the old system, we used to say, well, when you find your perfect partner, [00:58:00] you create perfect harmony, the beast with two bags. [00:58:03] But actually we know that doesn't work because when the person is not there, they miss the other person. Actually, what we're talking about here, true collaboration is this, both individuals become whole, complete and whole. And the dance between those individuals is to help each other become whole. And then what you get, of course, is an infinite loop and freedom in between. [00:58:25] Mm-hmm. And this is what true collaboration is. So each person sourcing what they're there to source and being really, really clear that one is playing the role of the easel. And holding the space, and the other is doing the creation in there. So it's a nuance of collaboration. It's not saying forget co-creation, forget collaboration. [00:58:47] It's a nuance to it that integrates the masculine world over here into the emergent world, because again, it's the matri dog. You don't embrace this world. [00:59:00] This world falls apart and it never actually grains the traction that it needs. So that's the distinction. So is it happening? Yes. What, what does practically that mean for an individual operating from this space? [00:59:14] It means practically actually looking back into the world that you might be in resistance to, and you might have rejected, and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and seeing the gold dust in that. Um, and then accepting that gold dust, embracing that gold dust, reclaiming the strong summary, you know, that the masculine energy in you, in order to do that holding, knowing that beyond that is communion. [00:59:41] But you can't miss that rung on the ladder. You miss that rung on the ladder. You don't get to the top of the mountain, the whole thing falls apart, the tree falls over. Yeah. [00:59:50] Sarah: I, yeah, totally. I, I, I see you, you, you talk so beautifully and I just, I, it feels sometimes I'm kind of like the translator who [01:00:00] brings it down to the level of the, of, um, you know, kind of the ground 11. [01:00:05] I'm a Capricorn. Uh, and so I'm like, okay, you know, very, there's my daughter straightforward. And, and so in a way I can also make a parallel to my own journey. And, and I know you shared it in your book. Um, About your journey to the Woohoo mountain, right. And the artist and, and all of that. And then from there, coming back to the, yeah. [01:00:29] To the, the yang energy and, and, and I'm a Capricorn and a cancer rising. So I really have these both things. You know, the very, I call myself the mama bear of the, of the Humane Marketing circle. So I have this cancer energy, uh, that is very feminine, very woowoo, right? But. At the core, I'm at Capricorn, I'm very down to earth and structured and, and so it's almost like I wanted to get rid of those things and rid of the mind, and I'm like, no, no, no, I [01:01:00] have to, I don't be, you know, very meditative and in this state of Woo all the time. [01:01:05] Um, and yeah, it didn't work. Like, I'm like, no, this, you know, I need both. And that's what we're constantly talking about as well. And in humane marketing, you, you need both the doing and the being. So it's, uh, yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. You have, you have definitely a way with words and, and, and making this, uh, parallels that. [01:01:26] Yeah. It's just, it's such a journey, right? It's the journey of transformation basically, is what you're, you're talking about. And, and it's a journey of the money journey. But then of course, m you know, everything kind of goes back to money. And, and it's our journey as, as humans and as entrepreneurs. [01:01:48] Alexander: Yeah. [01:01:48] Yeah. It's exactly that. It's, it's those two being and doing. Right. And, um, the doing comes from a [01:02:00] state of being, right? [01:02:02] Sarah: Yeah. Which, which I know you, and that's why we need to start with the being. Right. We do [01:02:07] Alexander: need to start with the being. We do need to unlock this because we've been in a state of doing the way too long for too long. [01:02:13] Yeah. When we jump into the being, and it was, it was Einstein who said, let's call this the intuition, this the intellect. He said, um, you know, the, the intellect is a faithful servant, and the intuition is a sacred gift. And if we can understand that it's the gift that uses the intellect, that uses the mind, it's like a tool in the toolbox. [01:02:42] Mm-hmm. And when it uses it, Actually, you can create whatever you want, but most of the time it is the minds trying to suppress and forget this sacred gift. Yeah. And that really is the, the infinite journey [01:03:00] is realizing the gift, using the tool in order to create, and th this, this, this journey. It's, it's the journey of creation. [01:03:15] Yeah. It's the journey of humankind. It's, it's any painting, any masterpiece. That's the journey. Mm-hmm. [01:03:21] Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and taking on us on this journey. Uh, Alexander, really appreciate it. Please do share where people, I think you run these webinars, uh, on a regular basis. So I think the best, uh, idea is probably for people to actually, uh, attend this webinar so they, they can see you in action and do share about that and the book and your website [01:03:48] Alexander: and all of that. [01:03:50] Yeah, sure. Well, um, we will be running another, uh, webinar on the 20th of April Arthur Prosperity, while we [01:04:00] begin into this little bit more detail. I dunno whether this episode comes up before then or not, but if it does, then great. Sign up and join us. Uh, you can also, uh, find my book, a free chapter of my book on, on my website, uh, Alex Alexander hable.com. [01:04:15] Um, and then, um, Yeah, there are, there, you know, we're just about to launch a community which you can join. Um, and then we'll have regular, uh, conversations on a monthly basis. And then we run a series of, of retreats, the Masterpiece retreats, which are online and offline, uh, which is up to Japan to, to run a retreat in Kyoto, which I'm pretty excited about. [01:04:38] We're doing first Men's retreat in May, um, in Morocco, which again, I'm really excited about. We'll be going up to see Kari, who I mentioned, um, earlier in, in Norway. Um, and then we'll be running something in Switzerland in October. Um, and then we do online retreats as well, um, called Masterpiece Tribes, and we're on the 11th Tribe, um, 12th Tribe [01:05:00] will be in June. [01:05:00] So lots of, lots of amazing things happening. Um, and if any of that speaks to you, then, um, you know, come along, get, get some of the free information. The, the, the, there are lots of videos on the site as well, and you can get lost in the videos and learn as much as you need to. Um, yeah. Thank you for having [01:05:19] Sarah: me. [01:05:19] Yeah, wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? You. Thank you. I'm grateful for you too. Thank you. Thanks for creating masterpieces. [01:05:38] Alexander: Likewise. Thank you for creating your masterpiece. That's what I'm grateful for. Thank Youe marketing. [01:05:50] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this conversation, a bit of a different approach to, uh, money and pricing, but ever so important. [01:06:00] In order to find out more about Alexander and his work, please go to alexander dash inch ball.com. Uh, the community can be found@themasterpiece.community, and Alexander also has a podcast called Insights From the at and uh, that is also on his website, alexander inal.com. [01:06:25] As I said in our conversation, I really enjoyed Alexander's. Called the Masterpiece, and you'll find out also on his website or on Amazon directly. Finally, if you're looking for others who think like you, who are deep thinkers as we demonstrated in this conversation, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [01:06:47] You can find out more at Humane. Dot marketing slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode with all the links we mentioned here at Humane [01:07:00] Marketing slash H 16 two. Uh, this beautiful page also contains, uh, links to my free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [01:07:23] Uh, just a reminder also that marketing like We're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [01:07:49] Speak soon.[01:08:00]

Let me tell you about today's guest, Alexander Inchbald. Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 changemakers to create their Masterpiece and become Rainmakers. He is the founder of the #Masterpiece Movement, a growing community of pioneers, changemakers, misfits and rebels. Together with other likeminded communities they are creating a system that will sustain humankind. Alexander is a global authority on creativity: how we master our mind and body during the act of creation so we create a Masterpiece. He has studied Masters from the worlds of art, science, religion and leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, physiology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimenting with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. The story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. He is a bestselling author a few times over, has worked on all of the United Nation's Sustainable Development Goals and lives with his family above Lake Geneva In today's episode, Alex and I talk about: The story of money, from the industrial revolution until today What this means to us today WooWoo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle and why it prevents us from building business that make money Reclaim the artist as well as the art director How we can change our relationship to money The inner and outer game The role of creativity (and the right brain) in making money Why can can't neglect the left brain And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:29] Hello, friends. Today I have another deep and intriguing conversation for you, and it falls under the P of pricing. It's more about money, but money has to do with pricing, right? If you're irregular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page humane.marketing, not.com humane.marketing. [00:03:09] One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint or a step-by-step or cookie cutter approach. It's, uh, not perspec prescriptive, but it really is, um, helping you to reflect on your seven Ps for humane marketing. [00:03:37] So today I'm speaking to my new friend, Alexander Ald, whom I, I've met in December at a lovely fondue afternoon with nine other beautiful human beings, and we somehow telepathically connected and he gifted me his book Masterpiece, which is truly a masterpiece. [00:04:00] And, uh, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. [00:04:03] And. Obviously, like I said, going to talk about money, pricing, and also this idea of the masculine and the feminine energy, but mainly the masculine because money has to do with masculine energy. Before, I'll tell you a little bit more about Alexander. I'll also invite you in the behind the scenes of my pricing journey with our community. [00:04:28] The Humane Marketing Circle. I started this community in late 2019. It has been kind of going already in a small group before, and for the first year, people could basically join for free as part of, uh, my book launch on Kickstarter, and they were free members for a full. And then obviously, you know what happened in 20 20 20, uh, and then whoever wanted to stay after 2020, [00:05:00] they, uh, paid 20 bucks per month. [00:05:03] Then I increased it to 37, uh, dollars per month and then to 47, and now it's back at 37. You know, economic circumstances and all of that. But meanwhile, more people joined. We added a second monthly call. We moved from, uh, tr a Trello board, which was very simplistic, and it worked for a while for us. But now we're kind of going pro onto a new online platform. [00:05:35] And now we have an engaged online component to the community, and we're hosting that on cajabi, which I kind of joke about. It's, it's very much like us, um, because Cajabi bought this new, um, platform just recently. And so it's a, it. Kind of the little sister of Mighty Networks. It has big dreams, and yet it's [00:06:00] not perfect yet. [00:06:00] And that kind of reminds me of ourselves as a quietly rebellious and, uh, heart-centered changemakers and marketers. You know, uh, we're not perfect. We we're, uh, doing our very best and that's what our online platform is like. And, and so yeah, people are loving it. And in January I hired a community facilitator, uh, Eddie, who's connecting men members amongst each other and really cry, creating this interconnectedness between members, which is so important in a community. [00:06:36] So together we have created something just beautiful and unique and. Totally ready for this new business paradigm that's very Aquarius oriented, you know, power to the people. Um, it's not a top down approach where I'm basically the guru and te teaching you how to do it. No, we're tapping [00:07:00] into our own personal powers and, and sharing what works for us and learning from everybody else what works for them so that we can then figure out, well, I'd like to do this in business and I, you know, this person shared this thing. [00:07:16] I wanna try that. And, and so it's, it is very much in this, uh, Aquarius energy. If, um, if any of you listening are into, um, astrology or kind of follow that even loosely. So yeah, we've really created something very beautiful and unique, I think, uh, together. And now it's time for me to bring in the masculine energy and walk my talk about creating sustainable businesses. [00:07:46] Um, I always share that with my clients and the, the marketing like we're human program. And even in this circle we talk about how just because we come from this place of giving and lots of empathy [00:08:00] and, you know, humane approach to business does not mean that we don't want to have a sustainable business. [00:08:07] We operate from this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, right? And this community has definitely been grown based on that principle, maximum sustainable generosity. And now has come the time where, um, I need to bring in that masculine energy and make it sustainable for me. Uh, beautiful things, good things take time to grow. [00:08:33] And we are at the point now where I feel like. This is just absolutely a gorgeous community. Uh, and now I do need to bring up the price because up till now it wasn't sustainable for me, and that's okay. Again, it takes time and uh, you can't charge the full price from day one. That just makes logical business sense, but now it's time. [00:08:56] So on May 5th, I'll be [00:09:00] introducing a new humane three-tier pricing that is, Conveying all the value you really get in this community and it's sustainable for the host and everyone else's work that needs to be paid fairly. I'm announcing this price increase not to use urgency to get you to sign up, but it wouldn't feel fair that I'm doubling the price overnight without giving you at least a last chance to sign up at the current rate. [00:09:29] You know, it has happened to me where I go to a website and offering, all of a sudden the price is like much higher and I'm like, well, I wish I knew about this. So that's kind of why I'm doing this. Um, now so. Again, um, if you've been playing with the idea of maybe joining us now is a good time, you'll still be kind of considered, I wouldn't say founding members because, um, again, I've been hosting this for over three years, so, [00:10:00] uh, it's not really a founding member rate anymore, but it's just kind of like this, um, you know, maybe a budding rate. [00:10:07] Like we. Add the verge of something that is going to grow. And, and, and if you get in now, uh, well, you get in at that $37 per month rate. The new rates will come into place on May 5th. Have a look@humane.marketing forward slash circle and see if, uh, this is a good fit for you. And we'd love to have you okay with that. [00:10:35] Um, and I hope Alexander is, is proud about me demonstrating my, uh, masculine energy here. So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Alexander ald. Um, Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 change makers to create their masterpiece and become rainmakers. He's the founder of the Masterpiece Movement. [00:10:58] A growing community of [00:11:00] pioneers, changemakers, misfits, and rebels. Together with other like-minded communities, they are creating a system that will sustain human. Alexander is a global authority on creativity, how we master our mind embodied during the act of creation so we can create a masterpiece. He has studied masters from the worlds of art, science, religion, leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, psychology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimented with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. [00:11:41] This story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. Alexander is a bestselling author a few times over and has worked on all of the United Nations, sustain sustainable development goals, and he lives with his family here in Switzerland above Lake Geneva. And [00:12:00] I've had the pleasure to, uh, be over at his house just recently with a beautiful view. [00:12:05] So in our time together, we speak about. The story of money from the Industrial Revolution until today. What this means to us today, uh, I get him to talk about woo woo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle, and why it prevents us from building a business that makes money, reclaim the artist as well as the art director. [00:12:30] How we can change our relationship to money, the inner and the outer game, the role of creativity, the right brain in making money. Why we can't neglect the left brain and so much more. Um, this is a deep conversation. It's a conversation where I use my. Um, left brain and Capricorn being to, um, you know, kind of ground and bring ourselves [00:13:00] back because, uh, Alexander can go really far into these concepts that I have to admit are, uh, sometimes even, uh, a bit far out for me. [00:13:10] So, um, it's a rainy conversation. So if you're ready for that, let's dive in. Hi Alexander. So good to see you speak to you today. [00:13:23] Alexander: Wonderful to be here. Sarah, thank you so much for having [00:13:25] Sarah: me. Yeah. Um, I was on a webinar with you last week. That was amazing. And then of course, uh, as I mentioned in the intro, we, uh, met in person, which is like so rare nowadays, right? [00:13:40] That you get to meet people in person. And we get to meet again actually, uh, tomorrow after this recording. So I'm looking forward to that. But, um, let's share with, uh, my listeners a little bit of the conversations that, uh, partly from your webinar, also from your book, [00:14:00] that you, um, so kindly shared with me and I entitled this, uh, conversation. [00:14:06] Can't remember the exact words, but something about money and masculine energy, because that's what I feel like. You bring to us, right? This kind of dance between the feminine and the masculine and what that has to do with money, uh, how art comes in as well, because you are an artist. So yeah. Let's, let's dive in. [00:14:30] Um, why don't you start with kind of like, um, an excerpt of the story that you sh shared in this webinar. Um, I was on last week, I think it was called, um, it was called The Path of Prosperity, right? That was the title. Yeah. So sh sh Start us out there. [00:14:49] Alexander: Wow. Um, you know, the Pathway of Prosperity is, is a model that emerged, uh, in Switzerland. [00:14:55] Last year I was working with a group of pioneers and one of my business partners, a guy called Peter [00:15:00] kk, and Peter looked at our relationship to money and has looked at it for the last thir 30, 40 years. Um, and he discovered some really, really interesting things when he looked at our relationship to money. [00:15:12] Um, And the modern conception of money was created and designed by some very conscious people 250 years ago, um, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. And the industrial Revolution kind of, um, represents the extreme of the masculine end of the pathway. So there's a feminine end to the pathway, and you'd have to go back 200,000 years really to the dawn of humankind, um, in the Great River Valley in Africa, or at least that's one history you could say. [00:15:43] And that was kind of all feminine energy. So what is feminine energy? Feminine energy is, is, is being in connection. And if you've ever been in a real state of flow, you feel that you're in connection with something, something greater, um, than yourself. And somehow the energy of creativity [00:16:00] flows through you. [00:16:00] So just go to a moment like that. Maybe it was a moment you. Deeply in love with somebody in front of you, or a moment that you, you know, you created a painting and it just hours flew by or, or you finished a report at that moment. Actually the mind isn't really very active. You, you're just kind of in a state of connection or in a state of communion. [00:16:20] And then the opposite end of that is, is the industrial age. Um, and the industrial age. We've gone from kind of being connected to all of it, um, to being a cog in a wheel. Um, and the pathway, we actually talk about the pathway all the way from this to this. But, um, that takes about an hour. So, so I'm not gonna do that in this conversation. [00:16:40] Let, let me start this end. Let's work our way back. So this is the pathway of separation, moving from being connected to, disconnected from being part of all of it, to being a cog, a cove machine. And so if we, if we look at the, the industrial age, what did we say? We said, well, [00:17:00] um, life expectancy was pretty short, kind of, uh, 30 to 50 years, um, in most advanced countries in the world. [00:17:07] Um, and how do we, how do we increase, increase our health? And so some very, very conscious people actually designed a system, a financial system, in order for that to happen. And it included things like interest rates. Um, but the externalities of that, according to Peter's research, are two things. Um, one is extraction of people, extraction of the resource of people. [00:17:30] In other words, led to the idea of the cog in the wheel. And the second is the extraction of raw materials. And those two externalities, at the beginning, they were okay, because if you look at the numbers, the numbers are incredible that life expectancy went up and quality of life went up. E extraordinarily. [00:17:49] Um, and num, those numbers don't lie. It's not like somebody's faked those numbers. I was looking at the work by hands roling the mind gap. You can go, go and see it, mind gapper.org. Um, [00:18:00] incredible. It literally shows how you increase the amount of earning and the life expectancy increases. In other words, there is a direct correlation between those two, right? [00:18:10] And yet that system also divided us. So it was a system of silos. Um, think of the traditional factory and even a factory today it divides things down into silos. And so that was the system two 50 years ago. And there's some organizations that still follow it today, the un not far from where you and I are sitting right now. [00:18:29] You know, it follows a silo-based mentality. Governments, they follow a, a silo-based mentality. Education, you know, in, in class we get taught maths very separate from science, and that's very separate from, you know, art and, and languages. And yet today when we look at the challenges we face there, They're horizontal challenges, not vertical challenges. [00:18:51] Right. And so that, that kind of model started to evolve. Um, and about a hundred years ago, it evolved from the silo based system, uh, which we call the [00:19:00] control system into the, the, the compete system when compete system, not just vertical lines. You add in the horizontal lines. So you see this in big business now, everything divided from, you know, the, the factory line into departments and teams. [00:19:18] Mm-hmm. And you, you kind of had groupings in organizations. And then what we started to see about 20, 30 years ago is, is a kind of emergence, um, of something which can be traced back way before this, but the, the role of the individual in the organization, um, and the philosophy shifted and the philosophy shifted from, from over here in this model, the control and the compete model. [00:19:42] It was all about what was good for the organization, was good for the individual. It's a very paternalistic top down. And this one started to become a little bit more feminine. It said, well, actually what's good for the individual is good for the organization. We started to see that in Silicon Valley. So, you know, the growth of Silicon Valley, um, [00:20:00] w was predicated on the idea of giving people time to do what they were passionate about. [00:20:05] Think, think of Google. They said one day a week, 20% of your time, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And that led to Gmail and Google Maps and Google Calendar, and 50% of the innovation and AdWords, 50% of the innovation from Google came from that 20% time. And yet, what we are getting to see now, 20, 30 years into, you know, the, the massive rise of the internet is the limits of that system. [00:20:33] And, and a new system has been emerging for, uh, 20, 30 years. Um, Behind the scenes. And what we're now seeing is these systems, which are all a variant, a different flavored, you know, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, let's say. And we're now seeing that actually ice cream isn't the answer. Um, [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Sarah: well I'm gonna interrupt you there then. [00:21:02] So if we continue this ice cream analogy, what is the answer though? Um, and also what does dad have to do with our money story? [00:21:15] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, well, I, I'm at risk of course, continuing the analogy and saying, well, we all get fat and get addicted to [00:21:24] Sarah: That's true. And if you, if, if you continue there, it's like, well, money makes you fat. [00:21:30] You know, it's like fat in terms of like too much. [00:21:34] Alexander: Well look exactly, and, and you, you are spot on because. What, what is really happening? Where is the money in the world? Mm-hmm. Well, it's in these three systems. So it's, it's in government bonds, it's in government treasury, it's in big business and it's in Silicon Valley. [00:21:53] And more money has been printed in the last 10 years than has ever been in existence [00:22:00] in the entire history of humankind. And 40% of that wealth, 40% of the world's wealth is owned by 10 men. Um, and I used to be able to get even more of my high horse in this and say 10 white men, but actually there are now two Indian gentlemen who are in the top 10 men. [00:22:19] Um, and despite that, all the other organizations in the top 10 were founded in Silicon Valley. So you've got this, you've got this lake, if you like, of wealth, and it sits. In these three systems, think of a dam, right? And you know, behind the dam you have, you have a lake and it, and it's, and it's actually held here. [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's being hoarded, right? Um, and, and the money is not flowing right. It's not flowing out of the dam. It's, it's jammed behind the dam. And that isn't very natural. Dams are [00:23:00] not natural things. You know, there are no natural dams in nature. There's no hoarding in nature. There's nothing in nature that actually hoards anything. [00:23:07] If you look in, okay, so bears hibernate, squirrels hibernate, but what they do is they store the food that they need to get through the winter. That's not hoarding, right? Storing is, okay, I'm gonna just keep enough that I need with me. Uh, and, and as nomads, we did the same. We, we just carried what we needed at that moment. [00:23:29] If you've ever, ever been backpacking, You know, the first day you go backpack and you're like, oh, damn, I was wondering whether I could swear that, uh, I'll, I've bought in like stuff, I don't need all this stuff. So then you kind of start throwing away stuff, right? And then you, you thin down your rug sucking like, this is what I need, this is all I need. [00:23:51] Sarah: So yeah. You're, you're saying basically the, the money is all held in behind that dam. The question I guess I have is [00:24:00] like, well, what do we, the people, um, what can we do as the people? Um, because you started to talk about this journey, right? And you showed, basically showed us history. So the question is, um, is the, is this history a linear path and things just kept, keep going worse and worse, or? [00:24:27] And I think, uh, I remember from the webinar, of course, it's not a linear path. Uh, it, it it's this shape of, um, the, the the figure eight, um, and the infinity sign. So tell us about the return of Yeah. Uh, you know, how, how it's gonna change, basically. [00:24:48] Alexander: Yeah. Well, it, it looks like it's linear. It, it really does. [00:24:51] It does. It looks like we're heading, heading towards complete collapse. And [00:24:54] Sarah: right now, uh, you know, most people are gonna tell you, well, Alexander, I don't know, [00:25:00] but right now it doesn't look like there's any return. [00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look good. I mean, you know, we are recording this, aren't we? Um, just after, you know, the second, uh, valley Bank has just collapsed, um, we're recording at the same time as, um, UBS is just made an offer to buy credit Suis. [00:25:19] Right. Um, we're recording at a time that. Uh, the Economist is saying that there's a hundred billion dollars in the US banking system missing. Wow. But that's, that's, um, an unwanted gap. And you know, I remember back in 2007, 2008, you know, the beginning of the financial crisis, um, and Lima's Brothers collapsing. [00:25:40] And, and I'm sure you do as well. And it kind of feels like we're, we're at a similar time. And yet I am less concerned about it than ever. And some people, you know, watching like, what you crazy? I'm like, no, actually thi this is, this is absolutely what is being called, uh, forward. [00:26:00] And so there is a world beyond this. [00:26:03] Um, and in fact it's incredibly exciting and amazing world. And everyone says, oh, the system's gonna collapse in Ajara Diamond's book. If you've ever read that about civilization collapse, uh, the whole thing is gonna fall down. Well, maybe, um, The dam actually, there are people standing on both sides of the dam. [00:26:25] So let's take it from the, the global to the specific. Let's take it from, from, you know, what's happening at a societal level and let's, let's focus it on an individual level because this one [00:26:37] Sarah: you are talking about. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Because I was just gonna say that cuz it's a bit out there, right? [00:26:43] And it's like, okay, it would be great if we can talk about, well, what does that mean to us? So yeah, take us there. [00:26:50] Alexander: Mm-hmm. So some of us are standing on this side of the dam and we've got big fat ca bank accounts and we're like, I'm scared of spending my [00:27:00] money because the collapse, you know, the collapse is coming. [00:27:04] If I read the, if I read the the papers, watch the news, read the Economist or whoever, the system's about to collapse. So I need to look after my money. In other words. We are hoarding more because we're, we're afraid. And then there are people on the other side of the dam who are, who are kind of looking at the dam going, oh, there's no money coming to me. [00:27:29] And so some of us, you know, some of us are on this side of the dam and we're like, the river's dried up. There's, there's a drought, there's no money flowing to me. Um, how do I, how do I avoid this? Well, maybe I need to climb back up and, and get this side and go back into this world. Maybe I need to go back into the world of business and get a job and just stop trying to create this new system, whatever this new system is. [00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] and then those of us who are in it are like, am I gonna lose my job? So we've got these kind of two different mentalities going on and it, Peter puts it like this. There are someone, us who are unconsciously. Pushing money away, and some of us who are running after money unconsciously, so let me kind of unbundle that. [00:28:18] Mm-hmm. You can actually see this in your own life. Like either money's flowing, uh, there's money in your bank account or there's not money in your bank, in your bank account. You, you can literally look at it and you could diagnose what's going on by the health of your bank account. Now the secret here is about flow and you mentioned that this is an infinite loop. [00:28:40] The figure of eight turn on its side, it's actually an infinite loop. And the secret is very simple. The dam is actually a belief system held in mind. The dam is actually in our mind and it's an unconscious thing. You're like, no, no, no. It really exists. Like [00:29:00] 40% of the world's wealth help help buy 10 people. [00:29:02] They keep, you can't deny that you know that the money is all in here and it's not here. Well, actually that's not true because there are people over here I know. And we could talk about at length. And they have all the money they need flowing through them and flowing through their bank accounts, and they genuinely are creating a new world. [00:29:21] So what is the difference between those people and, and you and I now, why is the money flowing through their bank accounts and not through all of our bank accounts? And why is the money stuck here? And actually what we find is that most of us have part of ourselves here and part of ourselves here. So in fact, we're doing a little bit of both all the time. [00:29:45] We're, we're kind of hoarding onto the money that does come in, um, because we're afraid of the drought and we're looking at the money saying, when is the money gonna flow to us? And so the, a lot of the work we do is about helping people to break down [00:30:00] this, literally this mental barrier, this mental dam, um, so that the money flows again. [00:30:09] And so that ultimately prosperity flows, um, and the natural design of, of nature is everything in flow. Mm-hmm. It, it's not building downs, it's not building restrictions. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yes. I, I hear you Alexander, but my rational mind is still has a lot of questions because you just went through explaining, you know, the kind of system we are in right now. [00:30:39] Um, and you know that 10 men basically own 40% of the wealth and they are not the ones that I would say represent the feminine energy or even like dual energy. They're the patriarchical, um, kind of not the nicest people on [00:31:00] earth, I would say. And I don't care that they own, uh, that much. So the question is if you're saying, okay, it's just in our mind, well, it's not, it's a reality. [00:31:11] And so the, the thing is, what I want you to, um, talk about is, you know, kind of this concept of owning the masculine energy Yes. As well. And probably more like where we're headed, because clearly right now it's not the case, you know? Yes. Like, we're not at this point yet where we're money flows to everyone. [00:31:37] It's just Yes. You just showed it yourself. So Yes. Take us to, to owning these both energies and, and what, what that could look like. [00:31:47] Alexander: Look, that's such a good question. Um, and brilliantly put, and just to be clear, Um, I'm not saying that that the 10 white men or the eight white men and two Indian [00:32:00] men are in our mind. [00:32:01] I'm saying the dam is in our mind, right? Yes. Right. So the dam is what is in our mind. Mm-hmm. Which is blocking the flow. And you mentioned going into the fem energy. So let's look at it from this perspective. Yeah. Because it's easier to look from down here, looking up at the down. But if we go all the way into the feminine energy over here, we are not separate from the whole. [00:32:29] We are part of mother nature. We are, we are part of it. We are an integral part of it. We're not separate from it. The separation only happens in mind. So the only part of ourselves that can sense the separation is our mind, but our essence, whatever we call it, is not separate from the whole. It's an integral part of the whole. [00:32:52] Right. So if we look at it from this perspective, and then we look at these eight white men and two Indian [00:33:00] gentlemen, and we talk about the, the patriarchy as you just did. And then we, we have all this kind of stuff coming up inside ourselves and we're like, I really don't like those people. That she's the person in that system that you like the least think of that person, that leader, that that individual in that system. [00:33:22] Whether he's an entrepreneur, I'm gonna say he, because undoubtedly it's a man in, in a, in a right. So probably a, uh, a business leader, maybe a politician, but just bring to mind that person. It doesn't have to be, uh, in North America. It could be, it could be somewhere in Europe, it could be, it could be somewhere in Russia. [00:33:43] It could be somewhere in. Um, in the East, right? So just bring to mind that person, and then think of the, the, the thing that you like least about that person. What trait do you like least about that person? And is it, is it, it's, is it corruption? Is it, is it [00:34:00] bullying? Is it misogyny? Is it lying? Is it cheating? [00:34:03] Is it manipulating? Is it bullying? What is, what is it all? What is that trait All above? Yeah. Okay. All of the above. Right? And you can write a long, long list, right? Here's the scary thing. When you look at it from the feminine energy that is part of us. If we are part of the whole, they are also part of the whole, and they are part of us. [00:34:28] And this is a horrible, horrible thing, a horrible realization because mm-hmm. You're suddenly like, oh shit. What? Really? No, no, no, no. Because the mine will then go, no, no, no. That's ridiculous. I've done my work. I've done my own work. I, I, that's, that's how I got here. Don't be so ridiculous. I, I worked at my purpose five years ago, 10 years ago. [00:34:46] I've been doing spiritual development work. I've been doing personal development work. I've been doing all this work for the last 15, 20 years. My whole life has been dedicated to this work. Don't be so ridiculous as part of me stuck over here. Well, if we are on the planet right now, the bad news [00:35:00] is there is, there is an aspect of us that is holding this system in place, that's holding this dam here. [00:35:08] Mm-hmm. This dam in our mind. So what can we do about it? And this is where you're absolutely spot on, that actually we need to re-embrace this masculine energy over here. And, and, you know, Carl Young talked about this idea of the shadow. You know, what's held in the shadow. What's held in the collective consciousness of the planet right now is primarily masculinity. [00:35:35] Cuz this isn't been going on for 250 years. It's been going on for minimum 5,000 years, probably 10,000 years probably. You can trace it all the way back to the moment that, um, well, 5,000 years plus civilization in Suma, where we started to create hierarchies in cigarettes and money and all these things, or 10,000 years. [00:35:54] The moment that we settled down and we said, actually, we can cultivate crops and we can, we can [00:36:00] domestic animals, in other words, with a little bit above nature. Or you could trace it back 40,000 years and say, actually it was the moment that the prefrontal cortex, you know, mutated and gave us consciousness and the moment that the larynx gave us the ability to talk. [00:36:14] So each of these moments are kind of moments of separation along this journey. And now here we are at this, at this moment in history right now, the most amazing moment possibly ever in human history to be alive right now. And, and most of us still have this, they'll have this wall. The wall will dissolve. [00:36:36] It will, it's inevitable for some of us, and those of us who do will just go on this infinite cycle within this life. And for those of us who don't, will go on this cycle, not on this slide. Yeah, [00:36:54] Sarah: I like that. Um, I think, so you, you [00:37:00] kind of talked about the masculine energy and embracing that, um, I think in your book, but also in the webinar. [00:37:07] He also talk about the ego, right? And it's, um, it's part of that, those shadows, um, that, that we need to look at. And in some of the self-help, more self-development, uh, personal development, uh, um, things you hear while you just need to like go of the ego and you know, that's how you're coming to this feminine energy. [00:37:32] You instead say, well, don't let go of it. Uh, look at it and embrace it and, and, and, and yeah, commune with it in a way, right? And I think that's exactly what's happening now as well. Um, in, in on the bigger, um, scheme is all of that ego stuff is coming up and. And we're, yeah, we're having to look at it as a [00:38:00] society and, you know, the big, um, kind of, um, people that we talked about with all the wealth. [00:38:06] Well, that's really coming up for them, uh, specifically right now. And, and so what you're saying is not completely let go of it, but take I guess the good things from the ego with you so that you can then apply those. Let, let's kind of bring it to a business owner level because li my listeners are, are entrepreneurs, right? [00:38:30] And I do feel like a lot of, uh, you know, I'm talking to heart-centered entrepreneurs, so already that kind of says, well, there are a lot in the feminine energy, uh, which is great, right? Which is exactly what we need, uh, more of, so we're on this pathway back to the feminine energy. And what you are saying, and I'm saying it as well in different words because I talk about the doing and the being, um, the yin and the [00:39:00] yang, right? [00:39:00] We need both energies to be an entrepreneur and to, you know, stay ground and, and, and claim our worth. And, and, and yeah, do sell Right to sell. We need, uh, some of that, um, masculine energy as well. So yeah, tell us a bit more about the ego and, and what, what good parts are in the ego, right. That we can bring back to, to business. [00:39:26] Oh, [00:39:26] Alexander: beautiful. Great question. Um, well let, let's, let's take this model actually, and, and flip it up, right? So this, this figure of a, and let's flip it this way and, ok. So now [00:39:37] Sarah: let's, now standing straight, [00:39:38] Alexander: it's now standing straight, right? Yeah. And the base is the feminine and, and the, the top is, is the masculine. [00:39:45] Mm-hmm. And now let's imagine that's a tree. Right? Mm-hmm. And this is your tree and your, your business. Mm-hmm. And what you wanna do is you want to attract more trees into your forest, more trees into your community is [00:40:00] right. And the bigger, the bigger your forest grows, the more sustainable it becomes. So trees that grow in forest live far longer than trees that, um, that are isolated on their own, on hilltops. [00:40:13] So let's, let's assume that what you're trying to do is, is build a forest. A sustainable forest doesn't have to be the biggest forest in the world, but it's a sustainable forest. It's a heart-centered forest center. At the heart of this forest is the mother tree, your tree. Now if you think about that forest, and let's say, you know, it's, it's currently a cops or maybe it's a wood, but actually the potential is to grow to a forest. [00:40:36] Or maybe you are just starting out and you've literally just sewed the seed and it's, it's a seedling or a sapling. But you know, you know the potential of it is not just to grow into a tree. It's actually to grow into a forest. And of course what you go is do is you go through growing pain. So let's see if yours are sapling, you may be blown away, away, you know, around by the wind. [00:40:57] And what we often focus on is we try [00:41:00] and, you know, we try and grow the tree, right? You imagine this like you're a little seedling and you're, you're like, grow faster and you're like, let, you're trying to pull this more, more [00:41:08] Sarah: clients, more, [00:41:09] Alexander: yeah. More clients. More, more, more, more grow this way. Mm-hmm. And, and of course that doesn't work. [00:41:13] You'll literally just pull the seedling outta the ground or you'll pull the sapling outta the ground. Mm-hmm. So what stops you from doing this is, is the roots. And in fact, the height of the tree is dependent on the depth of the roots. Right? And don't worry, I'm gonna get to, to this thing about the ego, right? [00:41:28] Um, so let's assume that the roots is the feminine, the roots is in, is in connection with all of it. What, what we call the purpose. And that the, the tree is your mission. This is what you're growing towards and you want all the other trees to grow towards this, towards this mission. And that creates a microclimate underneath which sustains life because it's not too hot, it's not too cold. [00:41:52] It helps the, um, the, to conserve the water that all the trees need, the nutrients that all the trees need, the minerals [00:42:00] that all the trees need. And then they share this underneath. So the height of the tree is dependent on the depths of the roots. The sustainability of the forest is dependent on the consistency of the canopy, but what stops the roots from growing deeper are rocks. [00:42:18] Now, most people would tell you to remove rocks. When you see a block, you remove the block. When you see the dam, you take the dam out. [00:42:29] But what if the rocks had helped you to get here? See, if you were to remove all the rocks under a forest, the trees would become unstable. Mm-hmm. And then they'd fall over. But actually if, if the roots wrap around the rocks, then the tree becomes more stable. Yeah. And the whole forest becomes more stable. [00:42:53] Sarah: It reminds me of what we just said before, recording, no pain, no gain. Right? The rocks are the pain [00:43:00] here. The rocks are the dark nights of the soul. Um, so [00:43:04] Alexander: yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And in our research we've identified all different types of, of pain. Pain around money, which we've just been talking about. We're either mentally hoarding it or we are mentally, um, you know, we're in a scarcity mindset. [00:43:23] Um, so we're pushing it away mentally or we're running after it power, relationship to power. So either we're standing at the top of the dam or we're standing at the bottom of the dam. And in order for somebody to be standing at the top, there has to be somebody standing at the door. In other words, in order for you to have, um, power over somebody, somebody unconsciously has to accept to have power over them. [00:43:46] Right. Oras, my partner, Jean Plip, puts it, um, obedience is the key to power. Mm-hmm. The third rock that we look at is, is love, because most of us were brought up in a world of fairy tales, Grims fairy [00:44:00] tales where, you know, the, the, the prince and the princess lived happily ever after. Uh, which implies that you are happy every after when you find your soulmate. [00:44:09] And so we've reinterpreted that, that modern myth is you can only be happy when you find your soulmate, which implies that love is outside of you. And of course, those of us who've done personal development work and a lot of it know that actually it's inside of us. And yet there's so remnants of that old model because it's so deeply embedded in society. [00:44:29] Mm-hmm. And then the fourth area is time. Um, that we, we constantly perceive we are running out of time and we've got to do things by this time. Um, and so these are, these are the four rocks or we procrastinate and these are the four rocks that we find underground. And what we've explored and examined is how you can embrace these different rocks. [00:44:56] Because in them is first of all the secret of how you [00:45:00] got here. Your tree grew, you grew cause the rock was there. And if you really embrace it consciously, and this is the difference, most of us are, uh, kind of embracing or resisting it unconsciously. And because we're embracing it unconsciously, we're not really embracing it. [00:45:21] We're pushing away from it. So if you take a, you know, you mentioned being very practical in business, let's say. Um, we are unconsciously pushing money, right? Let's come back to money. We are running a program around money. So we think money is bad, or money is our security, or money is our freedom. Um, and that, uh, in Carl's words is a projection. [00:45:51] So we're not seeing money as money. We're seeing money as a vehicle to something freedom or [00:46:00] away from something corruption. And when we actually embrace the freedom with or without money, we actually become truly free. Mm-hmm. [00:46:14] Sarah: But we can't, I think, I think in the book, yeah. Go on. Sorry. Yeah. I think in the book you mentioned surrender. [00:46:21] Right? And that I think is a big piece of that journey is to, you know, just surrender to. The rocks. And, and does that mean surrender to the ego as well? Because we started this track with the ego. So does that mean surrender to your ego, uh, as well? [00:46:43] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, I would say more surrender to the feminine. [00:46:48] Hmm. But in the surrender, what most of us forget is that the feminine to take the sea behind me. Right. [00:47:00] Um, but the canvas here, so this is a painting, it's a painting of, of, uh, M Blanc, um, painted a few years ago in black. And, um, it was pretty windy up there. Like it's what, 3000 meters? So 9,000 feet. Um, and it's pretty windy. [00:47:18] And you know, when the canvas is moving, it's very difficult for the feminine to feel like, uh, She can come out and play. So the feminine creates, mother nature creates, um, the divine. You know, a birth is normally through the feminine form, like, you know, new, new life comes onto the planet through the feminine form. [00:47:39] And so the, the, when the canvas is held, the feminine can come out to play. So the masculine is, is the easel and it's holding. And normally I tie with string from the corner so that the, the canvas is completely held. And if the canvas is held, then the feminine has the confidence to come out to play [00:48:00] so that the, the, the feminine aspect of this needs the masculine at a certain level of awareness, right? [00:48:09] It needs to be held in that way. And that's where most of us are right now. And most of us have, have observed masters and we're like, you know, look, look at Nelson Mandela or, or Mother Teresa, and we observe no ego, you know, look at, look at Eckhart. No ego. we're like, there's no ego there. Ego's gone. So we look at it and we go, oh, I know what I need to do. [00:48:33] I need to get rid of the ego. I need to get rid of the rocks. Right? But actually, that's like trying to climb a ladder by removing the runts. Mm-hmm. So if when you get to the top of the ladder, you don't need the ladder, but in order to get to the top of ladder, you needed the rungs in the ladder. So most of us look at that state and we think, well, what I need to do is I need to remove the ego in order to reach the top [00:49:00] of my mountain. [00:49:01] Actually, it's the inverse. The rungs of the ladder are embracing every aspect of ego and finding the gold in the rock, cuz there's gold in each of these rocks. And when you realize there's a benefit in, I dunno, security. And you find the conscious benefit in that, the gold dust in that you climb up a run and then you keep doing this. [00:49:27] It's, it's a, it's a very long ladder, by the way, really, really long ladder, you know? And like you, you can go on and on and on and on and on. Like, it's, it, it feels like it's infinite, right? Um, but at a certain point, you, you reach the top of the mountain, you're like, oh my God, I'm here. Then you don't need the ladder, but you do need the ladder to help other people get to the top of the mountain. [00:49:52] So this is when you build ladders for other people, right? [00:49:55] Sarah: So once you build your ladder, you can then help other people. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:00] I, I see how you, yeah. How you tie in the, the rocks and the ego and that. The point is not to let go of the ego, but to embrace it. Because we need both of these energies, right? [00:50:15] Yes. Um, Maybe just to kind of bring it down again to the level of, uh, the individual, the entrepreneur. Um, what I see a lot in, um, uh, the entrepreneurs that I work with is that, um, and, and I think in your book, you call it the woowoo Mountain, right? And I have my WOOWOO prompts in, in, in the marketing, like we're human book. [00:50:39] So I think it's very much needed today that we can go into the woo and that we can, you know, embrace our feminine energy. But you and I both make the point also to say yes. And you do also need, uh, the masculine energy, um, to [00:51:00] build a business. There's just certain things, even in marketing, you know, you need to look at your numbers, like all of these kind of left brain things, those are the masculine energy, and we need those for building businesses, and we need those even for, um, Yeah. [00:51:17] It, it's a structure, like you said, the easel is the structure. It's kind of like, um, we need both. We need the roots, which you said was the feminine, and then we need some kind of system or, or structure. Um, I love that. Yeah. Thanks so much for, for taking on us on that journey. What I'm curious, uh, kind of to wrap up, what I'm curious, um, about is, is, is this return and. [00:51:45] You know, we, we kind of briefly touched upon it, the, the communion. Um, what you, um, mentioned also is the, you know, the, these different, um, business models. So we started with, uh, [00:52:00] industrial Revolution. Now we're kind of still in the big corporate systems. So where is this going? Uh, what do you see, uh, as a new paradigm in terms of business and, um, yeah, humans. [00:52:16] How, how are we [00:52:17] Alexander: evolving? Yeah, so the, the, the big leap beyond the dam, um, if we, if we kind of put the tree back and actually the other way around and, um, we have the infinite loop, then the big leap beyond, um, the, the dam is, is a leap into what is variously known as as a teal organization. Um, it's a kind of decentralized organization. [00:52:40] But most people have misunderstood the decentralized organization. Um, and they think we, we go into co creativity and we immediately jump to communion. There is a step in between, there's a rung in the ladder in between this current system, Silicon Valley system, which is still extracting wealth, um, and this new emergence [00:53:00] system before you get to communion. [00:53:02] So the future is communion, and that's one end of the cycle. And then there's the other. And really what you're looking for is a constant flow between them. So in order for that constant quote to happen, you'd have to reclaim these positives, as you said over here. So what's the positive of the control system? [00:53:18] Discipline structure. What's the, the positive of the, of the second system? Focus, like steely, focus on, on whatever you call that thing is your mission or the uniqueness. Your promise was the third thing. The third thing is about shifting our mindset. It's about unlocking our mindset and moving towards a mindset where things can grow. [00:53:39] But the real leap is here. This is the leap. This is the leap that's emergent. And it's, it's like it builds on all of these. We think it's linear, but actually it's like the Russian dolls. So this is an outer Russian doll, and then there's another Russian doll here. And this one, to get to this one, you have to accept all of these [00:54:00] phases. [00:54:01] And what that means is that it's not co-creation, that's delusional. Wbu Mountain stuff. That it occurs because somebody is holding the space. What my, my partner Peter calls the source, there's an easel there holding the canvas for everyone else. And so there's, there's this famous book by, uh, Fred Lulu. [00:54:22] Fred Lulu, um, called Reinventing Organization, which kicked up a whole creativity, co creativity movement, and became a cult classic in 2015. And when Peter interviewed Fred, cause he knows him very well, he said, Fred, you only interviewed sources, didn't you? And Fred's like, yes. In other words, he was observing the canvas, but not realizing the role that the sources, the people, the founders of the business were playing as the easel. [00:54:52] What does that mean? It means. The holding at this level without the, the, the masculine, strong [00:55:00] masculine energy nigro is, is a mapp like this with bubbles inside, without the arms holding the space. Without that discipline, without that focus, without that structure, the whole thing falls into a mess. And I, I launched a company, um, based on the idea of co-creation. [00:55:18] I was the source of it. I had some incredible partners, really, really impressive people. And it collapsed. We never made any money. There was never any flow in it. So in order to create this system, we have to embrace the shadow of the masculine and the shadow of the masculine is encompassed in the, in the worst of the people who we see running this system. [00:55:44] And so I am incredibly optimistic, but it's not even optimism. I know, I know that, um, some of us are already doing this. And I see what's been created and it is phenomenal. [00:56:00] Phenomenal what has been created. I mean, I was speaking with my friend Heath yesterday, what Heath is up to, unbelievable. I mean, I can't give any details out at the moment, but you can feel the energy of what he is doing. [00:56:14] I'll give you one example. So Carrie is 25 years in the un, has created a parallel organization to the UN called United Cities in Google it. She's now the source of a 13 billion fund to realize the SDGs, uh, the sustainable development goals. Her mission is 10,000 cities. By the end of decade, she will do it. [00:56:34] I know she will. She's operating from that level of awareness. That's just one example. But there are, let's [00:56:42] Sarah: go back to the, let's go back to the, uh, individuals, um, you know, the entrepreneurs who are listening, cuz that's kind of like a high level example. Um, because I, I do have to say, I'm like, well, here I am always talking about co-creation and collaboration, and you [00:57:00] just come in and say, well, that's not working. [00:57:02] So what's the alternative then? Because if the ultimate goal is communion, then what's the alternative? If not collaboration? [00:57:13] Alexander: So collaboration is key, but the key to get to the communion is to appreciate that each of us have a role in that collaboration and each of us are tapping in as a source into something greater, whatever we call that. [00:57:35] So the collaboration happens because each of us take a marriage. In a marriage, you have two people, and we talk about us as, as a, as a something, but actually each of us are independent, um, beings. And we, we used to say in the old system, we used to say, well, when you find your perfect partner, [00:58:00] you create perfect harmony, the beast with two bags. [00:58:03] But actually we know that doesn't work because when the person is not there, they miss the other person. Actually, what we're talking about here, true collaboration is this, both individuals become whole, complete and whole. And the dance between those individuals is to help each other become whole. And then what you get, of course, is an infinite loop and freedom in between. [00:58:25] Mm-hmm. And this is what true collaboration is. So each person sourcing what they're there to source and being really, really clear that one is playing the role of the easel. And holding the space, and the other is doing the creation in there. So it's a nuance of collaboration. It's not saying forget co-creation, forget collaboration. [00:58:47] It's a nuance to it that integrates the masculine world over here into the emergent world, because again, it's the matri dog. You don't embrace this world. [00:59:00] This world falls apart and it never actually grains the traction that it needs. So that's the distinction. So is it happening? Yes. What, what does practically that mean for an individual operating from this space? [00:59:14] It means practically actually looking back into the world that you might be in resistance to, and you might have rejected, and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and seeing the gold dust in that. Um, and then accepting that gold dust, embracing that gold dust, reclaiming the strong summary, you know, that the masculine energy in you, in order to do that holding, knowing that beyond that is communion. [00:59:41] But you can't miss that rung on the ladder. You miss that rung on the ladder. You don't get to the top of the mountain, the whole thing falls apart, the tree falls over. Yeah. [00:59:50] Sarah: I, yeah, totally. I, I, I see you, you, you talk so beautifully and I just, I, it feels sometimes I'm kind of like the translator who [01:00:00] brings it down to the level of the, of, um, you know, kind of the ground 11. [01:00:05] I'm a Capricorn. Uh, and so I'm like, okay, you know, very, there's my daughter straightforward. And, and so in a way I can also make a parallel to my own journey. And, and I know you shared it in your book. Um, About your journey to the Woohoo mountain, right. And the artist and, and all of that. And then from there, coming back to the, yeah. [01:00:29] To the, the yang energy and, and, and I'm a Capricorn and a cancer rising. So I really have these both things. You know, the very, I call myself the mama bear of the, of the Humane Marketing circle. So I have this cancer energy, uh, that is very feminine, very woowoo, right? But. At the core, I'm at Capricorn, I'm very down to earth and structured and, and so it's almost like I wanted to get rid of those things and rid of the mind, and I'm like, no, no, no, I [01:01:00] have to, I don't be, you know, very meditative and in this state of Woo all the time. [01:01:05] Um, and yeah, it didn't work. Like, I'm like, no, this, you know, I need both. And that's what we're constantly talking about as well. And in humane marketing, you, you need both the doing and the being. So it's, uh, yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. You have, you have definitely a way with words and, and, and making this, uh, parallels that. [01:01:26] Yeah. It's just, it's such a journey, right? It's the journey of transformation basically, is what you're, you're talking about. And, and it's a journey of the money journey. But then of course, m you know, everything kind of goes back to money. And, and it's our journey as, as humans and as entrepreneurs. [01:01:48] Alexander: Yeah. [01:01:48] Yeah. It's exactly that. It's, it's those two being and doing. Right. And, um, the doing comes from a [01:02:00] state of being, right? [01:02:02] Sarah: Yeah. Which, which I know you, and that's why we need to start with the being. Right. We do [01:02:07] Alexander: need to start with the being. We do need to unlock this because we've been in a state of doing the way too long for too long. [01:02:13] Yeah. When we jump into the being, and it was, it was Einstein who said, let's call this the intuition, this the intellect. He said, um, you know, the, the intellect is a faithful servant, and the intuition is a sacred gift. And if we can understand that it's the gift that uses the intellect, that uses the mind, it's like a tool in the toolbox. [01:02:42] Mm-hmm. And when it uses it, Actually, you can create whatever you want, but most of the time it is the minds trying to suppress and forget this sacred gift. Yeah. And that really is the, the infinite journey [01:03:00] is realizing the gift, using the tool in order to create, and th this, this, this journey. It's, it's the journey of creation. [01:03:15] Yeah. It's the journey of humankind. It's, it's any painting, any masterpiece. That's the journey. Mm-hmm. [01:03:21] Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and taking on us on this journey. Uh, Alexander, really appreciate it. Please do share where people, I think you run these webinars, uh, on a regular basis. So I think the best, uh, idea is probably for people to actually, uh, attend this webinar so they, they can see you in action and do share about that and the book and your website [01:03:48] Alexander: and all of that. [01:03:50] Yeah, sure. Well, um, we will be running another, uh, webinar on the 20th of April Arthur Prosperity, while we [01:04:00] begin into this little bit more detail. I dunno whether this episode comes up before then or not, but if it does, then great. Sign up and join us. Uh, you can also, uh, find my book, a free chapter of my book on, on my website, uh, Alex Alexander hable.com. [01:04:15] Um, and then, um, Yeah, there are, there, you know, we're just about to launch a community which you can join. Um, and then we'll have regular, uh, conversations on a monthly basis. And then we run a series of, of retreats, the Masterpiece retreats, which are online and offline, uh, which is up to Japan to, to run a retreat in Kyoto, which I'm pretty excited about. [01:04:38] We're doing first Men's retreat in May, um, in Morocco, which again, I'm really excited about. We'll be going up to see Kari, who I mentioned, um, earlier in, in Norway. Um, and then we'll be running something in Switzerland in October. Um, and then we do online retreats as well, um, called Masterpiece Tribes, and we're on the 11th Tribe, um, 12th Tribe [01:05:00] will be in June. [01:05:00] So lots of, lots of amazing things happening. Um, and if any of that speaks to you, then, um, you know, come along, get, get some of the free information. The, the, the, there are lots of videos on the site as well, and you can get lost in the videos and learn as much as you need to. Um, yeah. Thank you for having [01:05:19] Sarah: me. [01:05:19] Yeah, wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? You. Thank you. I'm grateful for you too. Thank you. Thanks for creating masterpieces. [01:05:38] Alexander: Likewise. Thank you for creating your masterpiece. That's what I'm grateful for. Thank Youe marketing. [01:05:50] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this conversation, a bit of a different approach to, uh, money and pricing, but ever so important. [01:06:00] In order to find out more about Alexander and his work, please go to alexander dash inch ball.com. Uh, the community can be found@themasterpiece.community, and Alexander also has a podcast called Insights From the at and uh, that is also on his website, alexander inal.com. [01:06:25] As I said in our conversation, I really enjoyed Alexander's. Called the Masterpiece, and you'll find out also on his website or on Amazon directly. Finally, if you're looking for others who think like you, who are deep thinkers as we demonstrated in this conversation, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [01:06:47] You can find out more at Humane. Dot marketing slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode with all the links we mentioned here at Humane [01:07:00] Marketing slash H 16 two. Uh, this beautiful page also contains, uh, links to my free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [01:07:23] Uh, just a reminder also that marketing like We're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [01:07:49] Speak soon.[01:08:00]

Let me tell you about today's guest, Alexander Inchbald. Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 changemakers to create their Masterpiece and become Rainmakers. He is the founder of the #Masterpiece Movement, a growing community of pioneers, changemakers, misfits and rebels. Together with other likeminded communities they are creating a system that will sustain humankind. Alexander is a global authority on creativity: how we master our mind and body during the act of creation so we create a Masterpiece. He has studied Masters from the worlds of art, science, religion and leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, physiology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimenting with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. The story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. He is a bestselling author a few times over, has worked on all of the United Nation's Sustainable Development Goals and lives with his family above Lake Geneva In today's episode, Alex and I talk about: The story of money, from the industrial revolution until today What this means to us today WooWoo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle and why it prevents us from building business that make money Reclaim the artist as well as the art director How we can change our relationship to money The inner and outer game The role of creativity (and the right brain) in making money Why can can't neglect the left brain And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:29] Hello, friends. Today I have another deep and intriguing conversation for you, and it falls under the P of pricing. It's more about money, but money has to do with pricing, right? If you're irregular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page humane.marketing, not.com humane.marketing. [00:03:09] One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint or a step-by-step or cookie cutter approach. It's, uh, not perspec prescriptive, but it really is, um, helping you to reflect on your seven Ps for humane marketing. [00:03:37] So today I'm speaking to my new friend, Alexander Ald, whom I, I've met in December at a lovely fondue afternoon with nine other beautiful human beings, and we somehow telepathically connected and he gifted me his book Masterpiece, which is truly a masterpiece. [00:04:00] And, uh, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. [00:04:03] And. Obviously, like I said, going to talk about money, pricing, and also this idea of the masculine and the feminine energy, but mainly the masculine because money has to do with masculine energy. Before, I'll tell you a little bit more about Alexander. I'll also invite you in the behind the scenes of my pricing journey with our community. [00:04:28] The Humane Marketing Circle. I started this community in late 2019. It has been kind of going already in a small group before, and for the first year, people could basically join for free as part of, uh, my book launch on Kickstarter, and they were free members for a full. And then obviously, you know what happened in 20 20 20, uh, and then whoever wanted to stay after 2020, [00:05:00] they, uh, paid 20 bucks per month. [00:05:03] Then I increased it to 37, uh, dollars per month and then to 47, and now it's back at 37. You know, economic circumstances and all of that. But meanwhile, more people joined. We added a second monthly call. We moved from, uh, tr a Trello board, which was very simplistic, and it worked for a while for us. But now we're kind of going pro onto a new online platform. [00:05:35] And now we have an engaged online component to the community, and we're hosting that on cajabi, which I kind of joke about. It's, it's very much like us, um, because Cajabi bought this new, um, platform just recently. And so it's a, it. Kind of the little sister of Mighty Networks. It has big dreams, and yet it's [00:06:00] not perfect yet. [00:06:00] And that kind of reminds me of ourselves as a quietly rebellious and, uh, heart-centered changemakers and marketers. You know, uh, we're not perfect. We we're, uh, doing our very best and that's what our online platform is like. And, and so yeah, people are loving it. And in January I hired a community facilitator, uh, Eddie, who's connecting men members amongst each other and really cry, creating this interconnectedness between members, which is so important in a community. [00:06:36] So together we have created something just beautiful and unique and. Totally ready for this new business paradigm that's very Aquarius oriented, you know, power to the people. Um, it's not a top down approach where I'm basically the guru and te teaching you how to do it. No, we're tapping [00:07:00] into our own personal powers and, and sharing what works for us and learning from everybody else what works for them so that we can then figure out, well, I'd like to do this in business and I, you know, this person shared this thing. [00:07:16] I wanna try that. And, and so it's, it is very much in this, uh, Aquarius energy. If, um, if any of you listening are into, um, astrology or kind of follow that even loosely. So yeah, we've really created something very beautiful and unique, I think, uh, together. And now it's time for me to bring in the masculine energy and walk my talk about creating sustainable businesses. [00:07:46] Um, I always share that with my clients and the, the marketing like we're human program. And even in this circle we talk about how just because we come from this place of giving and lots of empathy [00:08:00] and, you know, humane approach to business does not mean that we don't want to have a sustainable business. [00:08:07] We operate from this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, right? And this community has definitely been grown based on that principle, maximum sustainable generosity. And now has come the time where, um, I need to bring in that masculine energy and make it sustainable for me. Uh, beautiful things, good things take time to grow. [00:08:33] And we are at the point now where I feel like. This is just absolutely a gorgeous community. Uh, and now I do need to bring up the price because up till now it wasn't sustainable for me, and that's okay. Again, it takes time and uh, you can't charge the full price from day one. That just makes logical business sense, but now it's time. [00:08:56] So on May 5th, I'll be [00:09:00] introducing a new humane three-tier pricing that is, Conveying all the value you really get in this community and it's sustainable for the host and everyone else's work that needs to be paid fairly. I'm announcing this price increase not to use urgency to get you to sign up, but it wouldn't feel fair that I'm doubling the price overnight without giving you at least a last chance to sign up at the current rate. [00:09:29] You know, it has happened to me where I go to a website and offering, all of a sudden the price is like much higher and I'm like, well, I wish I knew about this. So that's kind of why I'm doing this. Um, now so. Again, um, if you've been playing with the idea of maybe joining us now is a good time, you'll still be kind of considered, I wouldn't say founding members because, um, again, I've been hosting this for over three years, so, [00:10:00] uh, it's not really a founding member rate anymore, but it's just kind of like this, um, you know, maybe a budding rate. [00:10:07] Like we. Add the verge of something that is going to grow. And, and, and if you get in now, uh, well, you get in at that $37 per month rate. The new rates will come into place on May 5th. Have a look@humane.marketing forward slash circle and see if, uh, this is a good fit for you. And we'd love to have you okay with that. [00:10:35] Um, and I hope Alexander is, is proud about me demonstrating my, uh, masculine energy here. So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Alexander ald. Um, Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 change makers to create their masterpiece and become rainmakers. He's the founder of the Masterpiece Movement. [00:10:58] A growing community of [00:11:00] pioneers, changemakers, misfits, and rebels. Together with other like-minded communities, they are creating a system that will sustain human. Alexander is a global authority on creativity, how we master our mind embodied during the act of creation so we can create a masterpiece. He has studied masters from the worlds of art, science, religion, leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, psychology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimented with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. [00:11:41] This story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. Alexander is a bestselling author a few times over and has worked on all of the United Nations, sustain sustainable development goals, and he lives with his family here in Switzerland above Lake Geneva. And [00:12:00] I've had the pleasure to, uh, be over at his house just recently with a beautiful view. [00:12:05] So in our time together, we speak about. The story of money from the Industrial Revolution until today. What this means to us today, uh, I get him to talk about woo woo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle, and why it prevents us from building a business that makes money, reclaim the artist as well as the art director. [00:12:30] How we can change our relationship to money, the inner and the outer game, the role of creativity, the right brain in making money. Why we can't neglect the left brain and so much more. Um, this is a deep conversation. It's a conversation where I use my. Um, left brain and Capricorn being to, um, you know, kind of ground and bring ourselves [00:13:00] back because, uh, Alexander can go really far into these concepts that I have to admit are, uh, sometimes even, uh, a bit far out for me. [00:13:10] So, um, it's a rainy conversation. So if you're ready for that, let's dive in. Hi Alexander. So good to see you speak to you today. [00:13:23] Alexander: Wonderful to be here. Sarah, thank you so much for having [00:13:25] Sarah: me. Yeah. Um, I was on a webinar with you last week. That was amazing. And then of course, uh, as I mentioned in the intro, we, uh, met in person, which is like so rare nowadays, right? [00:13:40] That you get to meet people in person. And we get to meet again actually, uh, tomorrow after this recording. So I'm looking forward to that. But, um, let's share with, uh, my listeners a little bit of the conversations that, uh, partly from your webinar, also from your book, [00:14:00] that you, um, so kindly shared with me and I entitled this, uh, conversation. [00:14:06] Can't remember the exact words, but something about money and masculine energy, because that's what I feel like. You bring to us, right? This kind of dance between the feminine and the masculine and what that has to do with money, uh, how art comes in as well, because you are an artist. So yeah. Let's, let's dive in. [00:14:30] Um, why don't you start with kind of like, um, an excerpt of the story that you sh shared in this webinar. Um, I was on last week, I think it was called, um, it was called The Path of Prosperity, right? That was the title. Yeah. So sh sh Start us out there. [00:14:49] Alexander: Wow. Um, you know, the Pathway of Prosperity is, is a model that emerged, uh, in Switzerland. [00:14:55] Last year I was working with a group of pioneers and one of my business partners, a guy called Peter [00:15:00] kk, and Peter looked at our relationship to money and has looked at it for the last thir 30, 40 years. Um, and he discovered some really, really interesting things when he looked at our relationship to money. [00:15:12] Um, And the modern conception of money was created and designed by some very conscious people 250 years ago, um, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. And the industrial Revolution kind of, um, represents the extreme of the masculine end of the pathway. So there's a feminine end to the pathway, and you'd have to go back 200,000 years really to the dawn of humankind, um, in the Great River Valley in Africa, or at least that's one history you could say. [00:15:43] And that was kind of all feminine energy. So what is feminine energy? Feminine energy is, is, is being in connection. And if you've ever been in a real state of flow, you feel that you're in connection with something, something greater, um, than yourself. And somehow the energy of creativity [00:16:00] flows through you. [00:16:00] So just go to a moment like that. Maybe it was a moment you. Deeply in love with somebody in front of you, or a moment that you, you know, you created a painting and it just hours flew by or, or you finished a report at that moment. Actually the mind isn't really very active. You, you're just kind of in a state of connection or in a state of communion. [00:16:20] And then the opposite end of that is, is the industrial age. Um, and the industrial age. We've gone from kind of being connected to all of it, um, to being a cog in a wheel. Um, and the pathway, we actually talk about the pathway all the way from this to this. But, um, that takes about an hour. So, so I'm not gonna do that in this conversation. [00:16:40] Let, let me start this end. Let's work our way back. So this is the pathway of separation, moving from being connected to, disconnected from being part of all of it, to being a cog, a cove machine. And so if we, if we look at the, the industrial age, what did we say? We said, well, [00:17:00] um, life expectancy was pretty short, kind of, uh, 30 to 50 years, um, in most advanced countries in the world. [00:17:07] Um, and how do we, how do we increase, increase our health? And so some very, very conscious people actually designed a system, a financial system, in order for that to happen. And it included things like interest rates. Um, but the externalities of that, according to Peter's research, are two things. Um, one is extraction of people, extraction of the resource of people. [00:17:30] In other words, led to the idea of the cog in the wheel. And the second is the extraction of raw materials. And those two externalities, at the beginning, they were okay, because if you look at the numbers, the numbers are incredible that life expectancy went up and quality of life went up. E extraordinarily. [00:17:49] Um, and num, those numbers don't lie. It's not like somebody's faked those numbers. I was looking at the work by hands roling the mind gap. You can go, go and see it, mind gapper.org. Um, [00:18:00] incredible. It literally shows how you increase the amount of earning and the life expectancy increases. In other words, there is a direct correlation between those two, right? [00:18:10] And yet that system also divided us. So it was a system of silos. Um, think of the traditional factory and even a factory today it divides things down into silos. And so that was the system two 50 years ago. And there's some organizations that still follow it today, the un not far from where you and I are sitting right now. [00:18:29] You know, it follows a silo-based mentality. Governments, they follow a, a silo-based mentality. Education, you know, in, in class we get taught maths very separate from science, and that's very separate from, you know, art and, and languages. And yet today when we look at the challenges we face there, They're horizontal challenges, not vertical challenges. [00:18:51] Right. And so that, that kind of model started to evolve. Um, and about a hundred years ago, it evolved from the silo based system, uh, which we call the [00:19:00] control system into the, the, the compete system when compete system, not just vertical lines. You add in the horizontal lines. So you see this in big business now, everything divided from, you know, the, the factory line into departments and teams. [00:19:18] Mm-hmm. And you, you kind of had groupings in organizations. And then what we started to see about 20, 30 years ago is, is a kind of emergence, um, of something which can be traced back way before this, but the, the role of the individual in the organization, um, and the philosophy shifted and the philosophy shifted from, from over here in this model, the control and the compete model. [00:19:42] It was all about what was good for the organization, was good for the individual. It's a very paternalistic top down. And this one started to become a little bit more feminine. It said, well, actually what's good for the individual is good for the organization. We started to see that in Silicon Valley. So, you know, the growth of Silicon Valley, um, [00:20:00] w was predicated on the idea of giving people time to do what they were passionate about. [00:20:05] Think, think of Google. They said one day a week, 20% of your time, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And that led to Gmail and Google Maps and Google Calendar, and 50% of the innovation and AdWords, 50% of the innovation from Google came from that 20% time. And yet, what we are getting to see now, 20, 30 years into, you know, the, the massive rise of the internet is the limits of that system. [00:20:33] And, and a new system has been emerging for, uh, 20, 30 years. Um, Behind the scenes. And what we're now seeing is these systems, which are all a variant, a different flavored, you know, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, let's say. And we're now seeing that actually ice cream isn't the answer. Um, [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Sarah: well I'm gonna interrupt you there then. [00:21:02] So if we continue this ice cream analogy, what is the answer though? Um, and also what does dad have to do with our money story? [00:21:15] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, well, I, I'm at risk of course, continuing the analogy and saying, well, we all get fat and get addicted to [00:21:24] Sarah: That's true. And if you, if, if you continue there, it's like, well, money makes you fat. [00:21:30] You know, it's like fat in terms of like too much. [00:21:34] Alexander: Well look exactly, and, and you, you are spot on because. What, what is really happening? Where is the money in the world? Mm-hmm. Well, it's in these three systems. So it's, it's in government bonds, it's in government treasury, it's in big business and it's in Silicon Valley. [00:21:53] And more money has been printed in the last 10 years than has ever been in existence [00:22:00] in the entire history of humankind. And 40% of that wealth, 40% of the world's wealth is owned by 10 men. Um, and I used to be able to get even more of my high horse in this and say 10 white men, but actually there are now two Indian gentlemen who are in the top 10 men. [00:22:19] Um, and despite that, all the other organizations in the top 10 were founded in Silicon Valley. So you've got this, you've got this lake, if you like, of wealth, and it sits. In these three systems, think of a dam, right? And you know, behind the dam you have, you have a lake and it, and it's, and it's actually held here. [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's being hoarded, right? Um, and, and the money is not flowing right. It's not flowing out of the dam. It's, it's jammed behind the dam. And that isn't very natural. Dams are [00:23:00] not natural things. You know, there are no natural dams in nature. There's no hoarding in nature. There's nothing in nature that actually hoards anything. [00:23:07] If you look in, okay, so bears hibernate, squirrels hibernate, but what they do is they store the food that they need to get through the winter. That's not hoarding, right? Storing is, okay, I'm gonna just keep enough that I need with me. Uh, and, and as nomads, we did the same. We, we just carried what we needed at that moment. [00:23:29] If you've ever, ever been backpacking, You know, the first day you go backpack and you're like, oh, damn, I was wondering whether I could swear that, uh, I'll, I've bought in like stuff, I don't need all this stuff. So then you kind of start throwing away stuff, right? And then you, you thin down your rug sucking like, this is what I need, this is all I need. [00:23:51] Sarah: So yeah. You're, you're saying basically the, the money is all held in behind that dam. The question I guess I have is [00:24:00] like, well, what do we, the people, um, what can we do as the people? Um, because you started to talk about this journey, right? And you showed, basically showed us history. So the question is, um, is the, is this history a linear path and things just kept, keep going worse and worse, or? [00:24:27] And I think, uh, I remember from the webinar, of course, it's not a linear path. Uh, it, it it's this shape of, um, the, the the figure eight, um, and the infinity sign. So tell us about the return of Yeah. Uh, you know, how, how it's gonna change, basically. [00:24:48] Alexander: Yeah. Well, it, it looks like it's linear. It, it really does. [00:24:51] It does. It looks like we're heading, heading towards complete collapse. And [00:24:54] Sarah: right now, uh, you know, most people are gonna tell you, well, Alexander, I don't know, [00:25:00] but right now it doesn't look like there's any return. [00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look good. I mean, you know, we are recording this, aren't we? Um, just after, you know, the second, uh, valley Bank has just collapsed, um, we're recording at the same time as, um, UBS is just made an offer to buy credit Suis. [00:25:19] Right. Um, we're recording at a time that. Uh, the Economist is saying that there's a hundred billion dollars in the US banking system missing. Wow. But that's, that's, um, an unwanted gap. And you know, I remember back in 2007, 2008, you know, the beginning of the financial crisis, um, and Lima's Brothers collapsing. [00:25:40] And, and I'm sure you do as well. And it kind of feels like we're, we're at a similar time. And yet I am less concerned about it than ever. And some people, you know, watching like, what you crazy? I'm like, no, actually thi this is, this is absolutely what is being called, uh, forward. [00:26:00] And so there is a world beyond this. [00:26:03] Um, and in fact it's incredibly exciting and amazing world. And everyone says, oh, the system's gonna collapse in Ajara Diamond's book. If you've ever read that about civilization collapse, uh, the whole thing is gonna fall down. Well, maybe, um, The dam actually, there are people standing on both sides of the dam. [00:26:25] So let's take it from the, the global to the specific. Let's take it from, from, you know, what's happening at a societal level and let's, let's focus it on an individual level because this one [00:26:37] Sarah: you are talking about. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Because I was just gonna say that cuz it's a bit out there, right? [00:26:43] And it's like, okay, it would be great if we can talk about, well, what does that mean to us? So yeah, take us there. [00:26:50] Alexander: Mm-hmm. So some of us are standing on this side of the dam and we've got big fat ca bank accounts and we're like, I'm scared of spending my [00:27:00] money because the collapse, you know, the collapse is coming. [00:27:04] If I read the, if I read the the papers, watch the news, read the Economist or whoever, the system's about to collapse. So I need to look after my money. In other words. We are hoarding more because we're, we're afraid. And then there are people on the other side of the dam who are, who are kind of looking at the dam going, oh, there's no money coming to me. [00:27:29] And so some of us, you know, some of us are on this side of the dam and we're like, the river's dried up. There's, there's a drought, there's no money flowing to me. Um, how do I, how do I avoid this? Well, maybe I need to climb back up and, and get this side and go back into this world. Maybe I need to go back into the world of business and get a job and just stop trying to create this new system, whatever this new system is. [00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] and then those of us who are in it are like, am I gonna lose my job? So we've got these kind of two different mentalities going on and it, Peter puts it like this. There are someone, us who are unconsciously. Pushing money away, and some of us who are running after money unconsciously, so let me kind of unbundle that. [00:28:18] Mm-hmm. You can actually see this in your own life. Like either money's flowing, uh, there's money in your bank account or there's not money in your bank, in your bank account. You, you can literally look at it and you could diagnose what's going on by the health of your bank account. Now the secret here is about flow and you mentioned that this is an infinite loop. [00:28:40] The figure of eight turn on its side, it's actually an infinite loop. And the secret is very simple. The dam is actually a belief system held in mind. The dam is actually in our mind and it's an unconscious thing. You're like, no, no, no. It really exists. Like [00:29:00] 40% of the world's wealth help help buy 10 people. [00:29:02] They keep, you can't deny that you know that the money is all in here and it's not here. Well, actually that's not true because there are people over here I know. And we could talk about at length. And they have all the money they need flowing through them and flowing through their bank accounts, and they genuinely are creating a new world. [00:29:21] So what is the difference between those people and, and you and I now, why is the money flowing through their bank accounts and not through all of our bank accounts? And why is the money stuck here? And actually what we find is that most of us have part of ourselves here and part of ourselves here. So in fact, we're doing a little bit of both all the time. [00:29:45] We're, we're kind of hoarding onto the money that does come in, um, because we're afraid of the drought and we're looking at the money saying, when is the money gonna flow to us? And so the, a lot of the work we do is about helping people to break down [00:30:00] this, literally this mental barrier, this mental dam, um, so that the money flows again. [00:30:09] And so that ultimately prosperity flows, um, and the natural design of, of nature is everything in flow. Mm-hmm. It, it's not building downs, it's not building restrictions. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yes. I, I hear you Alexander, but my rational mind is still has a lot of questions because you just went through explaining, you know, the kind of system we are in right now. [00:30:39] Um, and you know that 10 men basically own 40% of the wealth and they are not the ones that I would say represent the feminine energy or even like dual energy. They're the patriarchical, um, kind of not the nicest people on [00:31:00] earth, I would say. And I don't care that they own, uh, that much. So the question is if you're saying, okay, it's just in our mind, well, it's not, it's a reality. [00:31:11] And so the, the thing is, what I want you to, um, talk about is, you know, kind of this concept of owning the masculine energy Yes. As well. And probably more like where we're headed, because clearly right now it's not the case, you know? Yes. Like, we're not at this point yet where we're money flows to everyone. [00:31:37] It's just Yes. You just showed it yourself. So Yes. Take us to, to owning these both energies and, and what, what that could look like. [00:31:47] Alexander: Look, that's such a good question. Um, and brilliantly put, and just to be clear, Um, I'm not saying that that the 10 white men or the eight white men and two Indian [00:32:00] men are in our mind. [00:32:01] I'm saying the dam is in our mind, right? Yes. Right. So the dam is what is in our mind. Mm-hmm. Which is blocking the flow. And you mentioned going into the fem energy. So let's look at it from this perspective. Yeah. Because it's easier to look from down here, looking up at the down. But if we go all the way into the feminine energy over here, we are not separate from the whole. [00:32:29] We are part of mother nature. We are, we are part of it. We are an integral part of it. We're not separate from it. The separation only happens in mind. So the only part of ourselves that can sense the separation is our mind, but our essence, whatever we call it, is not separate from the whole. It's an integral part of the whole. [00:32:52] Right. So if we look at it from this perspective, and then we look at these eight white men and two Indian [00:33:00] gentlemen, and we talk about the, the patriarchy as you just did. And then we, we have all this kind of stuff coming up inside ourselves and we're like, I really don't like those people. That she's the person in that system that you like the least think of that person, that leader, that that individual in that system. [00:33:22] Whether he's an entrepreneur, I'm gonna say he, because undoubtedly it's a man in, in a, in a right. So probably a, uh, a business leader, maybe a politician, but just bring to mind that person. It doesn't have to be, uh, in North America. It could be, it could be somewhere in Europe, it could be, it could be somewhere in Russia. [00:33:43] It could be somewhere in. Um, in the East, right? So just bring to mind that person, and then think of the, the, the thing that you like least about that person. What trait do you like least about that person? And is it, is it, it's, is it corruption? Is it, is it [00:34:00] bullying? Is it misogyny? Is it lying? Is it cheating? [00:34:03] Is it manipulating? Is it bullying? What is, what is it all? What is that trait All above? Yeah. Okay. All of the above. Right? And you can write a long, long list, right? Here's the scary thing. When you look at it from the feminine energy that is part of us. If we are part of the whole, they are also part of the whole, and they are part of us. [00:34:28] And this is a horrible, horrible thing, a horrible realization because mm-hmm. You're suddenly like, oh shit. What? Really? No, no, no, no. Because the mine will then go, no, no, no. That's ridiculous. I've done my work. I've done my own work. I, I, that's, that's how I got here. Don't be so ridiculous. I, I worked at my purpose five years ago, 10 years ago. [00:34:46] I've been doing spiritual development work. I've been doing personal development work. I've been doing all this work for the last 15, 20 years. My whole life has been dedicated to this work. Don't be so ridiculous as part of me stuck over here. Well, if we are on the planet right now, the bad news [00:35:00] is there is, there is an aspect of us that is holding this system in place, that's holding this dam here. [00:35:08] Mm-hmm. This dam in our mind. So what can we do about it? And this is where you're absolutely spot on, that actually we need to re-embrace this masculine energy over here. And, and, you know, Carl Young talked about this idea of the shadow. You know, what's held in the shadow. What's held in the collective consciousness of the planet right now is primarily masculinity. [00:35:35] Cuz this isn't been going on for 250 years. It's been going on for minimum 5,000 years, probably 10,000 years probably. You can trace it all the way back to the moment that, um, well, 5,000 years plus civilization in Suma, where we started to create hierarchies in cigarettes and money and all these things, or 10,000 years. [00:35:54] The moment that we settled down and we said, actually, we can cultivate crops and we can, we can [00:36:00] domestic animals, in other words, with a little bit above nature. Or you could trace it back 40,000 years and say, actually it was the moment that the prefrontal cortex, you know, mutated and gave us consciousness and the moment that the larynx gave us the ability to talk. [00:36:14] So each of these moments are kind of moments of separation along this journey. And now here we are at this, at this moment in history right now, the most amazing moment possibly ever in human history to be alive right now. And, and most of us still have this, they'll have this wall. The wall will dissolve. [00:36:36] It will, it's inevitable for some of us, and those of us who do will just go on this infinite cycle within this life. And for those of us who don't, will go on this cycle, not on this slide. Yeah, [00:36:54] Sarah: I like that. Um, I think, so you, you [00:37:00] kind of talked about the masculine energy and embracing that, um, I think in your book, but also in the webinar. [00:37:07] He also talk about the ego, right? And it's, um, it's part of that, those shadows, um, that, that we need to look at. And in some of the self-help, more self-development, uh, personal development, uh, um, things you hear while you just need to like go of the ego and you know, that's how you're coming to this feminine energy. [00:37:32] You instead say, well, don't let go of it. Uh, look at it and embrace it and, and, and, and yeah, commune with it in a way, right? And I think that's exactly what's happening now as well. Um, in, in on the bigger, um, scheme is all of that ego stuff is coming up and. And we're, yeah, we're having to look at it as a [00:38:00] society and, you know, the big, um, kind of, um, people that we talked about with all the wealth. [00:38:06] Well, that's really coming up for them, uh, specifically right now. And, and so what you're saying is not completely let go of it, but take I guess the good things from the ego with you so that you can then apply those. Let, let's kind of bring it to a business owner level because li my listeners are, are entrepreneurs, right? [00:38:30] And I do feel like a lot of, uh, you know, I'm talking to heart-centered entrepreneurs, so already that kind of says, well, there are a lot in the feminine energy, uh, which is great, right? Which is exactly what we need, uh, more of, so we're on this pathway back to the feminine energy. And what you are saying, and I'm saying it as well in different words because I talk about the doing and the being, um, the yin and the [00:39:00] yang, right? [00:39:00] We need both energies to be an entrepreneur and to, you know, stay ground and, and, and claim our worth. And, and, and yeah, do sell Right to sell. We need, uh, some of that, um, masculine energy as well. So yeah, tell us a bit more about the ego and, and what, what good parts are in the ego, right. That we can bring back to, to business. [00:39:26] Oh, [00:39:26] Alexander: beautiful. Great question. Um, well let, let's, let's take this model actually, and, and flip it up, right? So this, this figure of a, and let's flip it this way and, ok. So now [00:39:37] Sarah: let's, now standing straight, [00:39:38] Alexander: it's now standing straight, right? Yeah. And the base is the feminine and, and the, the top is, is the masculine. [00:39:45] Mm-hmm. And now let's imagine that's a tree. Right? Mm-hmm. And this is your tree and your, your business. Mm-hmm. And what you wanna do is you want to attract more trees into your forest, more trees into your community is [00:40:00] right. And the bigger, the bigger your forest grows, the more sustainable it becomes. So trees that grow in forest live far longer than trees that, um, that are isolated on their own, on hilltops. [00:40:13] So let's, let's assume that what you're trying to do is, is build a forest. A sustainable forest doesn't have to be the biggest forest in the world, but it's a sustainable forest. It's a heart-centered forest center. At the heart of this forest is the mother tree, your tree. Now if you think about that forest, and let's say, you know, it's, it's currently a cops or maybe it's a wood, but actually the potential is to grow to a forest. [00:40:36] Or maybe you are just starting out and you've literally just sewed the seed and it's, it's a seedling or a sapling. But you know, you know the potential of it is not just to grow into a tree. It's actually to grow into a forest. And of course what you go is do is you go through growing pain. So let's see if yours are sapling, you may be blown away, away, you know, around by the wind. [00:40:57] And what we often focus on is we try [00:41:00] and, you know, we try and grow the tree, right? You imagine this like you're a little seedling and you're, you're like, grow faster and you're like, let, you're trying to pull this more, more [00:41:08] Sarah: clients, more, [00:41:09] Alexander: yeah. More clients. More, more, more, more grow this way. Mm-hmm. And, and of course that doesn't work. [00:41:13] You'll literally just pull the seedling outta the ground or you'll pull the sapling outta the ground. Mm-hmm. So what stops you from doing this is, is the roots. And in fact, the height of the tree is dependent on the depth of the roots. Right? And don't worry, I'm gonna get to, to this thing about the ego, right? [00:41:28] Um, so let's assume that the roots is the feminine, the roots is in, is in connection with all of it. What, what we call the purpose. And that the, the tree is your mission. This is what you're growing towards and you want all the other trees to grow towards this, towards this mission. And that creates a microclimate underneath which sustains life because it's not too hot, it's not too cold. [00:41:52] It helps the, um, the, to conserve the water that all the trees need, the nutrients that all the trees need, the minerals [00:42:00] that all the trees need. And then they share this underneath. So the height of the tree is dependent on the depths of the roots. The sustainability of the forest is dependent on the consistency of the canopy, but what stops the roots from growing deeper are rocks. [00:42:18] Now, most people would tell you to remove rocks. When you see a block, you remove the block. When you see the dam, you take the dam out. [00:42:29] But what if the rocks had helped you to get here? See, if you were to remove all the rocks under a forest, the trees would become unstable. Mm-hmm. And then they'd fall over. But actually if, if the roots wrap around the rocks, then the tree becomes more stable. Yeah. And the whole forest becomes more stable. [00:42:53] Sarah: It reminds me of what we just said before, recording, no pain, no gain. Right? The rocks are the pain [00:43:00] here. The rocks are the dark nights of the soul. Um, so [00:43:04] Alexander: yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And in our research we've identified all different types of, of pain. Pain around money, which we've just been talking about. We're either mentally hoarding it or we are mentally, um, you know, we're in a scarcity mindset. [00:43:23] Um, so we're pushing it away mentally or we're running after it power, relationship to power. So either we're standing at the top of the dam or we're standing at the bottom of the dam. And in order for somebody to be standing at the top, there has to be somebody standing at the door. In other words, in order for you to have, um, power over somebody, somebody unconsciously has to accept to have power over them. [00:43:46] Right. Oras, my partner, Jean Plip, puts it, um, obedience is the key to power. Mm-hmm. The third rock that we look at is, is love, because most of us were brought up in a world of fairy tales, Grims fairy [00:44:00] tales where, you know, the, the, the prince and the princess lived happily ever after. Uh, which implies that you are happy every after when you find your soulmate. [00:44:09] And so we've reinterpreted that, that modern myth is you can only be happy when you find your soulmate, which implies that love is outside of you. And of course, those of us who've done personal development work and a lot of it know that actually it's inside of us. And yet there's so remnants of that old model because it's so deeply embedded in society. [00:44:29] Mm-hmm. And then the fourth area is time. Um, that we, we constantly perceive we are running out of time and we've got to do things by this time. Um, and so these are, these are the four rocks or we procrastinate and these are the four rocks that we find underground. And what we've explored and examined is how you can embrace these different rocks. [00:44:56] Because in them is first of all the secret of how you [00:45:00] got here. Your tree grew, you grew cause the rock was there. And if you really embrace it consciously, and this is the difference, most of us are, uh, kind of embracing or resisting it unconsciously. And because we're embracing it unconsciously, we're not really embracing it. [00:45:21] We're pushing away from it. So if you take a, you know, you mentioned being very practical in business, let's say. Um, we are unconsciously pushing money, right? Let's come back to money. We are running a program around money. So we think money is bad, or money is our security, or money is our freedom. Um, and that, uh, in Carl's words is a projection. [00:45:51] So we're not seeing money as money. We're seeing money as a vehicle to something freedom or [00:46:00] away from something corruption. And when we actually embrace the freedom with or without money, we actually become truly free. Mm-hmm. [00:46:14] Sarah: But we can't, I think, I think in the book, yeah. Go on. Sorry. Yeah. I think in the book you mentioned surrender. [00:46:21] Right? And that I think is a big piece of that journey is to, you know, just surrender to. The rocks. And, and does that mean surrender to the ego as well? Because we started this track with the ego. So does that mean surrender to your ego, uh, as well? [00:46:43] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, I would say more surrender to the feminine. [00:46:48] Hmm. But in the surrender, what most of us forget is that the feminine to take the sea behind me. Right. [00:47:00] Um, but the canvas here, so this is a painting, it's a painting of, of, uh, M Blanc, um, painted a few years ago in black. And, um, it was pretty windy up there. Like it's what, 3000 meters? So 9,000 feet. Um, and it's pretty windy. [00:47:18] And you know, when the canvas is moving, it's very difficult for the feminine to feel like, uh, She can come out and play. So the feminine creates, mother nature creates, um, the divine. You know, a birth is normally through the feminine form, like, you know, new, new life comes onto the planet through the feminine form. [00:47:39] And so the, the, when the canvas is held, the feminine can come out to play. So the masculine is, is the easel and it's holding. And normally I tie with string from the corner so that the, the canvas is completely held. And if the canvas is held, then the feminine has the confidence to come out to play [00:48:00] so that the, the, the feminine aspect of this needs the masculine at a certain level of awareness, right? [00:48:09] It needs to be held in that way. And that's where most of us are right now. And most of us have, have observed masters and we're like, you know, look, look at Nelson Mandela or, or Mother Teresa, and we observe no ego, you know, look at, look at Eckhart. No ego. we're like, there's no ego there. Ego's gone. So we look at it and we go, oh, I know what I need to do. [00:48:33] I need to get rid of the ego. I need to get rid of the rocks. Right? But actually, that's like trying to climb a ladder by removing the runts. Mm-hmm. So if when you get to the top of the ladder, you don't need the ladder, but in order to get to the top of ladder, you needed the rungs in the ladder. So most of us look at that state and we think, well, what I need to do is I need to remove the ego in order to reach the top [00:49:00] of my mountain. [00:49:01] Actually, it's the inverse. The rungs of the ladder are embracing every aspect of ego and finding the gold in the rock, cuz there's gold in each of these rocks. And when you realize there's a benefit in, I dunno, security. And you find the conscious benefit in that, the gold dust in that you climb up a run and then you keep doing this. [00:49:27] It's, it's a, it's a very long ladder, by the way, really, really long ladder, you know? And like you, you can go on and on and on and on and on. Like, it's, it, it feels like it's infinite, right? Um, but at a certain point, you, you reach the top of the mountain, you're like, oh my God, I'm here. Then you don't need the ladder, but you do need the ladder to help other people get to the top of the mountain. [00:49:52] So this is when you build ladders for other people, right? [00:49:55] Sarah: So once you build your ladder, you can then help other people. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:00] I, I see how you, yeah. How you tie in the, the rocks and the ego and that. The point is not to let go of the ego, but to embrace it. Because we need both of these energies, right? [00:50:15] Yes. Um, Maybe just to kind of bring it down again to the level of, uh, the individual, the entrepreneur. Um, what I see a lot in, um, uh, the entrepreneurs that I work with is that, um, and, and I think in your book, you call it the woowoo Mountain, right? And I have my WOOWOO prompts in, in, in the marketing, like we're human book. [00:50:39] So I think it's very much needed today that we can go into the woo and that we can, you know, embrace our feminine energy. But you and I both make the point also to say yes. And you do also need, uh, the masculine energy, um, to [00:51:00] build a business. There's just certain things, even in marketing, you know, you need to look at your numbers, like all of these kind of left brain things, those are the masculine energy, and we need those for building businesses, and we need those even for, um, Yeah. [00:51:17] It, it's a structure, like you said, the easel is the structure. It's kind of like, um, we need both. We need the roots, which you said was the feminine, and then we need some kind of system or, or structure. Um, I love that. Yeah. Thanks so much for, for taking on us on that journey. What I'm curious, uh, kind of to wrap up, what I'm curious, um, about is, is, is this return and. [00:51:45] You know, we, we kind of briefly touched upon it, the, the communion. Um, what you, um, mentioned also is the, you know, the, these different, um, business models. So we started with, uh, [00:52:00] industrial Revolution. Now we're kind of still in the big corporate systems. So where is this going? Uh, what do you see, uh, as a new paradigm in terms of business and, um, yeah, humans. [00:52:16] How, how are we [00:52:17] Alexander: evolving? Yeah, so the, the, the big leap beyond the dam, um, if we, if we kind of put the tree back and actually the other way around and, um, we have the infinite loop, then the big leap beyond, um, the, the dam is, is a leap into what is variously known as as a teal organization. Um, it's a kind of decentralized organization. [00:52:40] But most people have misunderstood the decentralized organization. Um, and they think we, we go into co creativity and we immediately jump to communion. There is a step in between, there's a rung in the ladder in between this current system, Silicon Valley system, which is still extracting wealth, um, and this new emergence [00:53:00] system before you get to communion. [00:53:02] So the future is communion, and that's one end of the cycle. And then there's the other. And really what you're looking for is a constant flow between them. So in order for that constant quote to happen, you'd have to reclaim these positives, as you said over here. So what's the positive of the control system? [00:53:18] Discipline structure. What's the, the positive of the, of the second system? Focus, like steely, focus on, on whatever you call that thing is your mission or the uniqueness. Your promise was the third thing. The third thing is about shifting our mindset. It's about unlocking our mindset and moving towards a mindset where things can grow. [00:53:39] But the real leap is here. This is the leap. This is the leap that's emergent. And it's, it's like it builds on all of these. We think it's linear, but actually it's like the Russian dolls. So this is an outer Russian doll, and then there's another Russian doll here. And this one, to get to this one, you have to accept all of these [00:54:00] phases. [00:54:01] And what that means is that it's not co-creation, that's delusional. Wbu Mountain stuff. That it occurs because somebody is holding the space. What my, my partner Peter calls the source, there's an easel there holding the canvas for everyone else. And so there's, there's this famous book by, uh, Fred Lulu. [00:54:22] Fred Lulu, um, called Reinventing Organization, which kicked up a whole creativity, co creativity movement, and became a cult classic in 2015. And when Peter interviewed Fred, cause he knows him very well, he said, Fred, you only interviewed sources, didn't you? And Fred's like, yes. In other words, he was observing the canvas, but not realizing the role that the sources, the people, the founders of the business were playing as the easel. [00:54:52] What does that mean? It means. The holding at this level without the, the, the masculine, strong [00:55:00] masculine energy nigro is, is a mapp like this with bubbles inside, without the arms holding the space. Without that discipline, without that focus, without that structure, the whole thing falls into a mess. And I, I launched a company, um, based on the idea of co-creation. [00:55:18] I was the source of it. I had some incredible partners, really, really impressive people. And it collapsed. We never made any money. There was never any flow in it. So in order to create this system, we have to embrace the shadow of the masculine and the shadow of the masculine is encompassed in the, in the worst of the people who we see running this system. [00:55:44] And so I am incredibly optimistic, but it's not even optimism. I know, I know that, um, some of us are already doing this. And I see what's been created and it is phenomenal. [00:56:00] Phenomenal what has been created. I mean, I was speaking with my friend Heath yesterday, what Heath is up to, unbelievable. I mean, I can't give any details out at the moment, but you can feel the energy of what he is doing. [00:56:14] I'll give you one example. So Carrie is 25 years in the un, has created a parallel organization to the UN called United Cities in Google it. She's now the source of a 13 billion fund to realize the SDGs, uh, the sustainable development goals. Her mission is 10,000 cities. By the end of decade, she will do it. [00:56:34] I know she will. She's operating from that level of awareness. That's just one example. But there are, let's [00:56:42] Sarah: go back to the, let's go back to the, uh, individuals, um, you know, the entrepreneurs who are listening, cuz that's kind of like a high level example. Um, because I, I do have to say, I'm like, well, here I am always talking about co-creation and collaboration, and you [00:57:00] just come in and say, well, that's not working. [00:57:02] So what's the alternative then? Because if the ultimate goal is communion, then what's the alternative? If not collaboration? [00:57:13] Alexander: So collaboration is key, but the key to get to the communion is to appreciate that each of us have a role in that collaboration and each of us are tapping in as a source into something greater, whatever we call that. [00:57:35] So the collaboration happens because each of us take a marriage. In a marriage, you have two people, and we talk about us as, as a, as a something, but actually each of us are independent, um, beings. And we, we used to say in the old system, we used to say, well, when you find your perfect partner, [00:58:00] you create perfect harmony, the beast with two bags. [00:58:03] But actually we know that doesn't work because when the person is not there, they miss the other person. Actually, what we're talking about here, true collaboration is this, both individuals become whole, complete and whole. And the dance between those individuals is to help each other become whole. And then what you get, of course, is an infinite loop and freedom in between. [00:58:25] Mm-hmm. And this is what true collaboration is. So each person sourcing what they're there to source and being really, really clear that one is playing the role of the easel. And holding the space, and the other is doing the creation in there. So it's a nuance of collaboration. It's not saying forget co-creation, forget collaboration. [00:58:47] It's a nuance to it that integrates the masculine world over here into the emergent world, because again, it's the matri dog. You don't embrace this world. [00:59:00] This world falls apart and it never actually grains the traction that it needs. So that's the distinction. So is it happening? Yes. What, what does practically that mean for an individual operating from this space? [00:59:14] It means practically actually looking back into the world that you might be in resistance to, and you might have rejected, and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and seeing the gold dust in that. Um, and then accepting that gold dust, embracing that gold dust, reclaiming the strong summary, you know, that the masculine energy in you, in order to do that holding, knowing that beyond that is communion. [00:59:41] But you can't miss that rung on the ladder. You miss that rung on the ladder. You don't get to the top of the mountain, the whole thing falls apart, the tree falls over. Yeah. [00:59:50] Sarah: I, yeah, totally. I, I, I see you, you, you talk so beautifully and I just, I, it feels sometimes I'm kind of like the translator who [01:00:00] brings it down to the level of the, of, um, you know, kind of the ground 11. [01:00:05] I'm a Capricorn. Uh, and so I'm like, okay, you know, very, there's my daughter straightforward. And, and so in a way I can also make a parallel to my own journey. And, and I know you shared it in your book. Um, About your journey to the Woohoo mountain, right. And the artist and, and all of that. And then from there, coming back to the, yeah. [01:00:29] To the, the yang energy and, and, and I'm a Capricorn and a cancer rising. So I really have these both things. You know, the very, I call myself the mama bear of the, of the Humane Marketing circle. So I have this cancer energy, uh, that is very feminine, very woowoo, right? But. At the core, I'm at Capricorn, I'm very down to earth and structured and, and so it's almost like I wanted to get rid of those things and rid of the mind, and I'm like, no, no, no, I [01:01:00] have to, I don't be, you know, very meditative and in this state of Woo all the time. [01:01:05] Um, and yeah, it didn't work. Like, I'm like, no, this, you know, I need both. And that's what we're constantly talking about as well. And in humane marketing, you, you need both the doing and the being. So it's, uh, yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. You have, you have definitely a way with words and, and, and making this, uh, parallels that. [01:01:26] Yeah. It's just, it's such a journey, right? It's the journey of transformation basically, is what you're, you're talking about. And, and it's a journey of the money journey. But then of course, m you know, everything kind of goes back to money. And, and it's our journey as, as humans and as entrepreneurs. [01:01:48] Alexander: Yeah. [01:01:48] Yeah. It's exactly that. It's, it's those two being and doing. Right. And, um, the doing comes from a [01:02:00] state of being, right? [01:02:02] Sarah: Yeah. Which, which I know you, and that's why we need to start with the being. Right. We do [01:02:07] Alexander: need to start with the being. We do need to unlock this because we've been in a state of doing the way too long for too long. [01:02:13] Yeah. When we jump into the being, and it was, it was Einstein who said, let's call this the intuition, this the intellect. He said, um, you know, the, the intellect is a faithful servant, and the intuition is a sacred gift. And if we can understand that it's the gift that uses the intellect, that uses the mind, it's like a tool in the toolbox. [01:02:42] Mm-hmm. And when it uses it, Actually, you can create whatever you want, but most of the time it is the minds trying to suppress and forget this sacred gift. Yeah. And that really is the, the infinite journey [01:03:00] is realizing the gift, using the tool in order to create, and th this, this, this journey. It's, it's the journey of creation. [01:03:15] Yeah. It's the journey of humankind. It's, it's any painting, any masterpiece. That's the journey. Mm-hmm. [01:03:21] Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and taking on us on this journey. Uh, Alexander, really appreciate it. Please do share where people, I think you run these webinars, uh, on a regular basis. So I think the best, uh, idea is probably for people to actually, uh, attend this webinar so they, they can see you in action and do share about that and the book and your website [01:03:48] Alexander: and all of that. [01:03:50] Yeah, sure. Well, um, we will be running another, uh, webinar on the 20th of April Arthur Prosperity, while we [01:04:00] begin into this little bit more detail. I dunno whether this episode comes up before then or not, but if it does, then great. Sign up and join us. Uh, you can also, uh, find my book, a free chapter of my book on, on my website, uh, Alex Alexander hable.com. [01:04:15] Um, and then, um, Yeah, there are, there, you know, we're just about to launch a community which you can join. Um, and then we'll have regular, uh, conversations on a monthly basis. And then we run a series of, of retreats, the Masterpiece retreats, which are online and offline, uh, which is up to Japan to, to run a retreat in Kyoto, which I'm pretty excited about. [01:04:38] We're doing first Men's retreat in May, um, in Morocco, which again, I'm really excited about. We'll be going up to see Kari, who I mentioned, um, earlier in, in Norway. Um, and then we'll be running something in Switzerland in October. Um, and then we do online retreats as well, um, called Masterpiece Tribes, and we're on the 11th Tribe, um, 12th Tribe [01:05:00] will be in June. [01:05:00] So lots of, lots of amazing things happening. Um, and if any of that speaks to you, then, um, you know, come along, get, get some of the free information. The, the, the, there are lots of videos on the site as well, and you can get lost in the videos and learn as much as you need to. Um, yeah. Thank you for having [01:05:19] Sarah: me. [01:05:19] Yeah, wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? You. Thank you. I'm grateful for you too. Thank you. Thanks for creating masterpieces. [01:05:38] Alexander: Likewise. Thank you for creating your masterpiece. That's what I'm grateful for. Thank Youe marketing. [01:05:50] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this conversation, a bit of a different approach to, uh, money and pricing, but ever so important. [01:06:00] In order to find out more about Alexander and his work, please go to alexander dash inch ball.com. Uh, the community can be found@themasterpiece.community, and Alexander also has a podcast called Insights From the at and uh, that is also on his website, alexander inal.com. [01:06:25] As I said in our conversation, I really enjoyed Alexander's. Called the Masterpiece, and you'll find out also on his website or on Amazon directly. Finally, if you're looking for others who think like you, who are deep thinkers as we demonstrated in this conversation, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [01:06:47] You can find out more at Humane. Dot marketing slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode with all the links we mentioned here at Humane [01:07:00] Marketing slash H 16 two. Uh, this beautiful page also contains, uh, links to my free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [01:07:23] Uh, just a reminder also that marketing like We're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [01:07:49] Speak soon.[01:08:00]

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's "Parenthood" and the Amazon series "Hunters" with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's "Parenthood" and the Amazon series "Hunters" with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's “Parenthood” and the Amazon series “Hunters” with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Today we will learn how Easter is celebrated in the United States and Australia. We will hear Tom and Sarah's conversation about their plans for Easter this year. And with a point-of-view story, you will learn grammar in context without memorizing boring rules. Hi! Thanks for joining me for another episode of the podcast. I'm Georgiana, and my mission is to help you improve your fluency. If you want to support me, please share the podcast with your friends and family. It would mean a great deal to me. Thank you! Okay! Let's start! Tom, from the United States, and Sarah, from Australia, were catching up on a video call before the Easter holiday. As they started chatting, they quickly realized they had different traditions and plans for celebrating the holiday. Let's listen to their conversation: Tom: Hey, Sarah! Happy Easter! Sarah: Happy Easter to you too, Tom! I hope you're doing well. Tom: Yes, I'm doing great. So, what are your plans for Easter this year? Sarah: I plan to attend church and celebrate Easter with my family. We usually have a big Easter dinner and spend time together. Tom: That sounds lovely. I'm also planning to celebrate Easter with my family. We usually have an Easter egg hunt and decorate Easter eggs. Sarah: Oh, that's a great tradition. We also decorate Easter eggs but don't have an egg hunt. Tom: That's interesting. Every family has their own traditions. Sarah: Definitely. What other traditions do you have for Easter? Tom: We usually go to church and have a big Easter brunch. We also exchange Easter baskets filled with candy and small gifts. Sarah: That sounds like so much fun. We don't exchange Easter baskets but give each other Easter cards. Tom: That's sweet. Do you have any special Easter foods that you eat? Sarah: Yes, we usually have ham, deviled eggs, and hot cross buns. Tom: That sounds delicious. My family has roasted lamb, mashed potatoes, and asparagus. Sarah: That sounds amazing. It's interesting to see how different cultures celebrate the same holiday.   Get the full transcript here: speakenglishpodcast.com/podcast/

Today's topic is Ethical Marketing and I'm speaking to Alica Karolina about it. Alice is a brand coach + strategist and the founder of The Ethical Move, working with changemakers to find + use their voice. She believes making an impact in a changing world requires a new way of thinking and communicating — businesses that stand out tell stories of substance, share products that serve the world, and sell with integrity. It takes courage to fully trust oneself and leave the status quo behind. But if we stop looking outside for answers, we discover we already have the power, knowledge, and ability to make this world work for everyone. In this episode, you'll learn about ethical marketing as well as... Ethics and how Alice defines it for her Ethical Move Whether marketing is unethical by default The unethical practices we've all being bombarded with daily How we can change those into ethical practices - and still sell. How the new economy can look like if it was up to us How you too can take the ethical pledge And so much more Alice's Resources Alice's Website The Ethical Move Connect with Alice on: LinkedIn Facebook Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Alice. So good to see you and hear Alice: you. Thank you so much for having me Sarah: here. Yeah, thank you. I think this is probably the only time that I get to chat in Swiss German on the podcast, even though it's before we hit record, but it's definitely the only time ever I get to speak in my mother tongue and dialect, and it's just. I don't know. It just feels like home, so it's good to be home. Alice: I know. Likewise, I feel exactly the same way. I actually spoke to some friends of mine back home, like via voice message just this morning to get into the groove of things. Cuz I have to remember my native tongue. , I love this. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. But obviously you are not in Switzerland. , you are in, , Canada and not. Eastern side, but the western side. So even more complex to get to talk to each other. But I'm so delighted that you're here and it's kind of a funny story actually, the [00:01:00] way, , we met, or I guess like all of these stories online is just kind of sometimes serendipity, but, , you're the, the founder of the ethical, , move This movement has been mentioned to me a few times in the past and, and I had to look at the website and I was like, oh, that's great. Know what they're doing. , I told you that I think in a conversation it looked very, , so branded and then obviously you were a brand specialist. So it all makes sense, but I, I thought, okay, there's like a company behind it, or like a huge team, so I didn't. Investigate further until it was mentioned to me again and have you, , taken. , it's not a pledge. What, what do you call it? The No, it is a pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. So have you taken the Ethical Pledge? And I'm like, oh yeah, that thing I gotta, you know, look at it again. And so I did. And then I was really curious, , let me look who's behind it, and then mm-hmm. , you know, here we are, find out [00:02:00] that you are, , fellow Swiss and Swiss German, which is just, yeah. Really funny. So I'm delighted to be here. Definitely very, very like-minded because you're, yeah. You're building something very similar to me and I'm just, , super excited about it. Yeah. Alice: So likewise. I know. It's so cool to have, it's interesting to me as well, because we clearly have very similar mindsets around it, and it's unsurprising to me because of the sort of collaborative way that Switzerland works in a way, . In politics in the way that we interact. I feel like because we're such a densely populated place as well, I feel like we are immediately enmeshed with other people whether we want to or not. , and so I feel like there's a lot more understanding and personal responsibility around the collective. That's my, my experience anyway. So it, , it doesn't surprise me that we would have . This feeling of, hey, this could be done differently if we sort of [00:03:00] take the collective into account. , so yeah, it's cool to actually finally have this conversation with someone who gets it, . Yeah, Sarah: yeah. No, it's, it's amazing. I never thought of it that way, but it's true. I come from this hippie upbringing and I always just thought, well, That's why I'm community driven. , but you're right. If you think about the political, organization of Switzerland and, and the fact that we are sandwiched in between all these other countries and that we speak, you know, at least three languages, uh, fluently, , it does make it, yeah, kind of more like, you know, oriented towards the other. Alice: yeah, in the good and the bad . Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Right. Well, let's dive into the, the topic and, what I wanna unpack is your ethical move. And in that kind of starts with maybe defining ethics, because when you think about ethics, there. So many aspects to [00:04:00] ethics, and I'm just curious to know how you define it and what you understand by it. Because the ethical move is, is yes, it's about ethics and business, but then it's also very specifically about marketing, from what I've seen on your website and from what I know now from the community. So tell us how you define ethics, right? For the Alice: big, big guns. Hey, . Yeah, I, , I have to say I'm not an ethics major in any way. I haven't studied it. I have studied marketing and sales in all their various forms. So for me, really it comes down to what I know to be called applied ethics, the way that we actually use, , the concepts. I would say a collective common good, , which comes from my understanding, there's, there's a few different viewpoints on this and I feel like people learn it differently in different countries and all the ways that they're [00:05:00] educated. , But to me there was always a difference between morals and ethics in the sense that morals is very subjective and personal. And then ethics is, sort of collective and society driven and how do we interact, , with each other. So, , I find it's almost like a collective decision to. For the common good, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. . So all the various ways in which it shows up from the very personal to professional to all the different, , areas that it touches, which is basically everything that humans touch . , we have different ways that we apply ethics, , and I think that we sort of as a growing society, Humans, you know, taking over the planet. we need to sort of take more of that into account, I think. And so the ethical move really was sort of a nod to, hey, what is a collective situation right now where we are all humans and our customers are our products, , our businesses are not just ways to make money, but also [00:06:00] very much have to do relationship and how we are human together and. Sort of bringing business and all of that into the field of, hey, this is a place where we can also do good in the world. And it's not just, you know, politics or government that takes care of welfare, , you know, we are also responsible for that as citizens in, in our own selves, like as humans, but then also as citizens, as businesses, right? Because legally we are required. Technically we are a citizen, , in our countries as businesses. And so really looking at what the responsibility of that means. So that's a bit of a broad, probably context, but Yeah, Sarah: no, that, that makes total sense because I feel like yeah, ethics really has these different layers and it's like global layers. Like, you know, you can even talk about environmental ethics. So you know, very in the psychic obviously, , and then. I guess down level would be governments and [00:07:00] countries, and then you're taking another level down. Then it's humans and, and you can talk about yeah. Humans in a workplace. , you can talk about the relationships between humans, so like gender ethics, I guess. And then what, what you are talking, , specifically is. Yeah. It's almost like consumer and cus Yeah. Consumer ethics maybe as individuals, but also as entrepreneurs and, and business owners, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's, it's just so similar to what we're trying to do here with Humane Marketing. It's like, yeah, let's, let's use marketing and let's use business as a liver for good. That's really what we're doing. Right? And then, And, and you come from this background in, in marketing and and sales as well. So I'm just curious to hear whether you think marketing has always been [00:08:00] unethical, like , has that always been the way it is or has it gotten worse over the last 10, 20 years? Alice: A good question. I mean, marketing in itself is not unethical. I don't actually wanna eradicate marketing. That to me is not. The goal here, , even thinking, you know, our common experience of the Saturday market with everyone, you know, yelling about their wares and, , with the beautiful smell of fresh tomatoes. And I just feel like market itself is not unethical. , just like the word influence is not unethical or ethical. They're neutral terms. I think what has happened is, Over the years, and I wanna go back even further, like in the early 19 hundreds, , people discovering psychology as a ways to do marketing. So using psychological tricks to like, for the first time, discovering psychology being a thing, you know, obviously. And then, and then really sinking [00:09:00] into what can be done with it. How can we use it in order to sell our things? . , and then from there, just kind of like the extrapolation of that through suddenly having a mass market and then suddenly having mass media available. , I think the, the possibilities to use it just grew and grew and grew. And I don't think we had, I mean, some people have a bit of an achy feeling about it, and I'm sure people in the fifties and sixties and seventies had moments of like, this might not be great. Or, or sort of like, There is a bit of a stench to it when you just sell for the purpose of selling or when you, you know, you work for a company that you know is harmful to people on the planet, , to sell their stuff. , and even as marketers today, right? Most of our, probably most of our community members, most of the people in our, in our sphere experience, Marketing is something almost dirty, right? Something that we don't wanna do. However, in itself, it has just been tainted with [00:10:00] this idea that humans are a commodity, humans are a product, , and using sort of these tricks to bypass our humanity in order to sell things. Selling more and more and more of things we don't naturally need, creating false needs, creating this, this unimaginably harmful feeling of not being enough. We're not having enough, which is just, it permeates everything, all of us, right, on either side of the spectrum, whether we are selling or being sold to. We all have this experience of I must get as much as I can for as little as possible. whether it be effort or money or, you know, and so I think that the experience of marketing has become a lot more complex with the amount of, just sheer amount of people and ways to reach them. And then it also has. Become more insidious because we know more about the brain and we [00:11:00] learn more about it and more studies are being done and how we can, you know, how we can use scent and how we can use music and how we can use different ways of influencing people, in, in a direction that is actually not based in their own conscious choice. So in that way, it has become more unethical, but not because in itself it's unethical, but because we have lost sort of. Yeah, I do think we have lost touch in a lot of ways to, you know, what is actually good for us, you know, which in the heart of hearts, we're usually just like peace of mind, quiet, family life, you know, if we're getting right down to our true desires, it's usually not more stuff. That's where I see it landing on a Sarah: spectrum. Yeah. And I love this. When you said, we've, we've kind of started to bypass our humanity. That's exactly what's happening. , and I think. Maybe what, what I would add is also the use of technology has increased. Yeah. Uh, over the last, you know, maybe 10, 20 years. And so [00:12:00] even more, we've lost touch with the human side of things because we realized all the things that we can use. All the technology that we can use to automate everything and more and more and more, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's totally that loss of humanity that made things unethical and that once you're in that cycle of greed for always more is really, really hard to break away from it, right? Yeah. And I think that's why we're finding ourselves in this difficult transition. Your gut knows it's wrong to do certain things, but your brain is telling you, well, yeah, but it makes money. So, why would I stop it? Yeah. So yeah, I think that's the question. So how do we, you know, change those bad practices into ethical practices and, and still make money? I guess, yeah, we [00:13:00] still do wanna make money, but, but maybe that's maybe the next conversation. Well do. We also need to change our approach to money, but first let's discuss how do we, how do we change those practices and, and still sell? Alice: I think there's a misconception that ethical tactics, Ethical ways of using those tactics or flipping them on their heads, , somehow results in no sales, or less sales. And yes, on a large, large scale, of course, if you, you know, stop using term prices or if you stop visually merchandising, if you stop, you know, yes, those were. Specifically the ways that, you know, stores are laid out and the way that we have these little trinkets by the cash register, like all of those things were specifically designed based on our, our brains, how they work. So if you do take those away, [00:14:00] then yes, you would sell less. , But if we look at the very sort of, simple service, service based business, , with maybe a couple of services to sell, it's not gonna have that impact. It's probably more built on relationship than anything else. So using psychological tactics, in my opinion, undermines that relationship and undermines that trust. So in, in my world, , the way I see it anyways, is, If we start with trust and we start with honesty, and we start with relationship and truth, we actually gain a lot more in the long run. We might not sell in the immediate because it's not a high pressure situation, but people will always need to have their problems solved, and there will always be people with those answers. So I feel. If we have a good product, whether it be a service or an actual product or anything else that you, that you sell, and you have like a really, a really clear message around it and you have, and you're aligned [00:15:00] with, you know, what you're actually trying to do in the world, then the people that need that will find you. It's a pretty simple equation in my opinion. It's just, here's the thing, this is how much it costs. What do you. and the other person could say yes or no. And to me, especially in today's world where we talk about consent, , so much, and it's so important, obviously , for all the obvious reasons, why is consent not considered important in marketing and sales? Because that's all we're doing is like, Hey, here's the facts, here's everything laid out for you. And now do you agree or do you not? And maybe you change your mind like. We're allowed to change our minds midway through a sales process. We're allowed to, you know, yes, it sucks on the other end, of course, we've all been there. You know, we're this close to signing a contract, and then the person is like, nevermind, I can't do it. But in the end, We actually make a sale that is beneficial to both sides, and that will result in referrals, that will result in word of mouth, that will result in better [00:16:00] relationships down the road. Recurring sales, which happens a lot that we just sort of forget in the frenzy of this, like corporate imitation. You know, we, we think that those rules are the only ways we can. , but it's, they're not, it's just how we've grown up. That's all. It's like, well, this is my parents' religion doesn't mean I have to adopt it. , but we were grown, you know, we were grown into that and we were educated in that. So it makes complete sense that we would adopt them, and it makes complete sense that we would adopt the mindset that we can't sell outside of them, but we can. It's just we're not doing it. That's. . it's pretty simple in my opinion. But then again, everybody has a business they need to take care of and I think that really getting down to what is your product and how do you sell it in a sense of like, what is actually the message and what are you, what is it within and who are you serving? That's more important than how can I best bypass their conscious choice, Sarah: yeah. , so much in there, what I always say is like there's this huge gap now between.[00:17:00] The consciousness of the current consumer and, , how we still market to them, , like we did back in the sixties. So marketing hasn't changed, and yes, consciousness of the consumer has changed, like over the five, last five years. A huge evolutionary jump, right? And yet we're still treating customers as if they're completely stupid and like they didn't know that we're actually tricking them. And, and so I, I feel like maybe the old way of marketing this pushy way will work for another maybe two, maybe five, who knows, maybe even 10 years. Things are evolving even faster now. And so eventually customers will not buy with those, , manipulative things anymore. And so what are the companies are gonna do then? Well, if they don't change their strategies now and go with trust and relationships, well they're gonna, [00:18:00] they're gonna go, bankrupt in a few years. And I think it's really, really important to realize that now, even though it's hard because they have to step out of that hustle. Mode. It really is a lot of unlearning and saying, okay, I'm gonna step out of the hustle mode because obviously these pushy methods, they do create sales and instant sales. For now still. Right, but they don't create a sustainable business, that's the thing. Alice: Yes. And I do wanna add to that. There are also more insidious ways being built into how to sell. Like we do have to remember that there's new technology for those who want to sell more, behind the scenes as well, like, Ways in which that technology really comes into play. Like learning to read people's emotional cues on Zoom. Like that's one thing that is starting to become a problem where people are using that in high pressure sales situations, you know? Wow. So we do have to remember that, that [00:19:00] that technology is not resting. , the way to sell more at profit is, is it late stage? Do they say, call it late stage capitalism or something? It, it is holding on for dear. Life. Like we have to remember that. So it's Sarah: this collision between the two worlds, right? We see that in politics too. It's like the old power wants to grab on as much as they can and the new world is slowly developing. But you're totally right. It's not gonna change just from one day to the Alice: next. No. So we do have to, I do think we have a responsibility and this is why we exist. You and I, , and our teams. We have the responsibility to point to those things and say, Hey, zoom is doing this thing. Hey, there's dark patterns. Hey, there's places in which we don't even know we're being tricked. Yes, we can identify when it's $99. We're like, yeah, that's a char price. We get it. Like people are starting to understand that that's a thing we've always known. It's not 99, you know? But the insidious behind it, there's still places that that can [00:20:00] go. And so reminding ourselves and, and sort of like, it'll be a daily practice of doing it differently because it will keep. Doing the thing, and we will keep having to, you know, stay grounded and not participate, which is so hard, even for me. I mean, I feel like you and I have studied this stuff for so long, right? It's just I can't handle it. I need to like step away from the computer, like put that away for 24 hours. It's a thing that I really need to practice. So, yeah. Sarah: but that, but that's exactly why we're both creating communities, right? Because you exactly, there's, there's also not enough examples. Of this more humane or ethical ways. And, and so if you don't see the example, well you're gonna follow what the big gurus tell you to do, which is Yeah, which is just the same old thing. So once people see more of the ethical marketing, the humane marketing, that's when they have a new. Kind of not, we [00:21:00] don't wanna be gurus, that's for sure. But they have a new example to follow and say, oh, it does work that way as well. , and what I talk a lot about in marketing, like we're human, is like, well, you have to figure out what works for you. Not just, you know, find a new guru and follow them. It's like, no, you have to bring all of you to, to your marketing. And so yeah, these communities are so important. Alice: And I think that's exactly the point. And that's what I feel like my, my point to all of my work in all the ways , not even just the ethical move, but also in my branding work is how can I get you to listen in as opposed to out? What is the way that I can establish a really strong voice from within that you don't need to continuously participate in what is being told, , because the narrative isn't healthy for anyone. And. I mean the current narrative. And so taking up that space and changing that is also part of it, right? Going back inside and going back to listen to what we really want and what our desires are and what, you know, what's good for our loved ones. [00:22:00] Yeah. Remembering that day in and day out because we are so inundated with those messages of, like what our bodies are supposed to look like and what our minds are supposed to look like and how productive we supposed to be, and all the things in which we We're not enough. We're not perfect. We're not, we're not perfect. We're never gonna make it. And no matter how many times we learn about, the, the perfect body doesn't exist, we know that, calories are a sham. We know that like all these things still, somehow I look at the calorie tag in a grocery store, like, what is it? I know it's bogus. Anyway, it just, we just have to keep grounding ourselves within ourselves and within our communities. Sarah: Why we do what we do. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and before I hinted at the definition of success and that maybe we also need to work on that, right? And, and so that's part of it, that is that work on the being. And so how do you do that with maybe with. Your clients in, in branding because I really feel like, whether we're [00:23:00] branding now or we're marketing or we're selling, it all comes back to first figuring out who we are and it's, it's just so sometimes really difficult for people to understand that. We're now marketing, but we're doing personal development first before we ever go out into, you know, creating a brand or, or, or market or anything like that. So how do you work with Alice: clients on that? That's exactly it. I think the, that's the part of branding that I enjoy the most anyways. the other side of it, you know, how do you sell better? How do you market better? How do you message better? That to me is almost, has gotten a bit tired, I feel. The identity piece is such a strong core anchoring that kind of makes everything else make. Continuously and reliably and sustainably. , because otherwise you just put blown around in the winds of change, right? Like it's constantly moving and having a really strong, rooted, grounded knowledge of yourself [00:24:00] and what you care about. , that is huge. And I also think, I mean, definition of success , is probably one of the bigger ones and it always, it gets talked about so much and I feel like we. This idea that it's, well, it's not, it's not this, it has to be this, you know, it's not like we know it's not money, so what else is it? Or we know it's not, you know, and still we obviously have desires that live within us and there's something that I've recently learned, , from many sources around desire, which is to like trust them and that they are inherent and they don't change. They are who we. . Like, we can't, we can't, there's no choice in our desires. And so what I've been practicing just based on this, is just tracking my desires, like writing them down every day. Mm-hmm. , what are my desires? Love, affection, laughter, joy. Mm-hmm. , freedom, peace. Like whatever it is that in the day, on the day and the moment that I'm writing it is [00:25:00] like my deepest desire in that moment. Writing it down and trusting that that is where I wanna go. And I feel like since then, The way that I look at what I actually want has completely changed, and I do think there's a difference between what I want and what I desire in the sense that desire is sort of innate and what I want can be very shifty and weird sometimes, you know, it could one Sarah: day. Could it be that what you want is also maybe more material? , little bit. Alice: It could be. It's more in the moment. I think my desire feels more like something that is like in the core from who I am, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I noticed this the most when I was recently, like, I checked myself because I. Counting my hours for the week, you know, I, I track my hours for everything that I do, just so I know where I'm placing my time. And then at the end of the week, because of my sort of neurodiversity, because I have ADHD and complex ptsd, and there's lots of like ways in which I was always told that I was either lazy or not doing enough or whatever, you know, like the millions of ways that we are [00:26:00] being told were not enough again. I noticed myself wanting to get to a really high number at the end of the week of like collective hours worked, and I'm like, oh, only 30. Like I didn't do, , I should be. And then I checked myself for like the first time and went, why am I trying to get more hours out of me? Like, what is this I wrote down this morning. My desire is freedom to like lay in the sun in the middle of the day. Like that doesn't actually work with working more. So I had a moment, like a real sort of like insight where I thought, what if I count the hours of pleasure and leisure instead , and count that as a win, you know, instead of how many hours I work. And that really just, I feel like. Individually, obviously this works for me, but individually, everybody, like I wish everybody had the chance to just kind of go reverse that and kind of go, well, what's possible for me? And of course within that comes privilege, right? I am privileged enough that I can work 30 [00:27:00] hours and make a living. , other people cannot. And that is also part of this definition of success, has to be. What do I need to do to make a living that doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing that makes me happy? It would be nice, but sometimes we have to, just go, okay, the world is what it is and I need to make money for it. , but disentangling that from what we desire and how we wanna live our days, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, Sarah: that was a bit of a tangent. . Yeah, no, it's, it's really good because cuz we are placing this, this conversation on the, the p of people and, and, you know, I should have called it humans, but, but that didn't start with a p so, so it is all about the being human and being human as an entrepreneur and having, yeah, having so much to unlearn really. , that's what comes to mind. It's like, All these things that we think we should be doing, especially in marketing. Another thing that's kind of timely, because we're at the end of the year, is a goal setting, right? [00:28:00] So, , yeah, I'm thinking about goal setting, like we're human , and I know, uh, Tara McMullen just came up with a book about goal setting in, in a radically different way, and excited to read, read her book. That is part of that pressure. It's like, oh, I only work 30 hours per week. I should be doing much more. I should have all these goals of how much income I'm gonna make next year and all of that. And yeah, we, we. Need to shift everything because, otherwise absolutely. We feel like we, , if we have these huge goals, numbers that we want to achieve, then obviously we're gonna fall into the trap of I have to market and I have to hustle and I have to sell so much. It just, yeah, it goes hand in hand. Absolutely. Alice: One of the things I learned from Tara is having a commitment first approach to the goals like, What are my commitments for the year? And then matching those goals to them. And then one thing I learned from Marie Collin, [00:29:00] who's our, , resident notion expert, , The idea of setting identity goals as well as smart goals, you know? Mm-hmm. , like having goals around who I'm becoming or who I want to become, like, for her, it's like being a great facilitator of her course or things like that. And for me, it might be being a really good steward of this land and learning more about, you know, our aboriginal roots and so, what are identity goals that actually match, you know, who we are as humans. And of course we have smart goals because we also have businesses with numbers. Like we also have goals that need to have a specific outcome, but maybe they can live parallel to these, sort of like more personal. Real goals that we have, and maybe they don't, they're not called goals anymore then, but I don't know. I just feel like that might be a worthy exercise. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's kind of like how I talk about the new business paradigm, and you call it the New Economy, is is that goal setting? That's in Terror . Oh, is [00:30:00] it? Okay. Yeah. Alice: Yeah. Tara actually called it the New Economy because she said, We are gonna inform government. We're the largest growing sector of small businesses online. , and that is the place we're going to. So the new economy is not just this like corporate, you know, these Bama, but all of us little ones. , and that is partially why I started following her and became part of her community, , because of. Sort of outset of saying, Hey, we are that impactful. And it probably started a lot of the conversation around the ethical move as well. Because if we are the new economy, if we are basically what's gonna like the example of what's next, then we better, we better take the responsibility, right. You know, that we have with that and start acting as if, you know. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. I love it. Anything else? We talked about goal setting, we talked about ethical marketing. What else fits in [00:31:00] that new economy, Alice: for you? I think the biggest part that we keep forgetting, well, we might not forget, but we see it a bit of, , a bit of, as a checklist is, , our collective liberation. I. Understanding that, well, other people might call it social justice or whatever you wanna call it. , we call it collective liberation because, well, first of all, liberation is the biggest word we can find for everyone to be free because as you know, many people have said the world is not free until we're all, all free, or the world doesn't work unless it works for everyone. , so the understanding that we are in a big collective and that we are all working together on this and that we. Supposed to be alone. This is just a very western, northern, you know, capitalist mentality that we are on our own and we need to individually muddle our way through this. Rugged individualism has not helped us, and it is not how the global South usually operates either. So [00:32:00] learning from people who are living collectively or being in collection, in collect. Really will inform how we can go forward. So that is also something that we practice in the ethical move. Like what is this consensus collective, community driven, way we can be together and we can learn together so that no one person is gonna tell us. You know, I'm not the expert in ethical marketing. That's why I built a community. I'm not, that's why I have, you know, a team of nine people. I can't do this on my own, nor should I, because the collective is what's gonna get us to the next stage. , and like taking our time, slowing down, not just, you know, on the technology side of things. Yes, sure. Unplug your phone at eight to 8:00 PM whatever, like, do your thing, but also understanding. It takes time to process things and it, and processing is important and nuance is important. And understanding each moment that we are aware of a change or aware of [00:33:00] something that is shifting within us to give ourselves grace and the people around us, grace, to go through those shifts and to have process take place so that. We can come out the other end with like, okay, so I don't have all the answers yet, but I do have a sort of a sense of where I wanna go next and I'm gonna try some things and then see if the people around me agree. And then we keep going in this like very collective consensus based way and that hopefully will help the most marginalized. In the way that it's supposed to help, not by us white saviors going down and building schools in Africa. Oh my gosh. I'm saying that in quotation marks cuz I just, philanthropy and I don't have a good time together, , . But this idea of, you know, what is a way that we can all be because we're all benefit, if the most marginalized among us benefits, then it works for all of us. So yeah, that's basically the, the biggest underlying piece I think that we don't focus on enough in my. Yeah, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so many [00:34:00] challenges that we need to focus on, and, and you're, you're right. I mean, we, we do have a responsibility to take and, you know, if we haven't taken it yet, it's about time. , yeah, Alice: absolutely. I think there's something in addition to that full circle to ethical marketing, which that's the part that I think that ethical market. Sometimes people misinterpret it as, you know, how can I sell better? How can I make it so that I don't feel icky about myself? But I really wanna bring it out and zoom it out and say, it is about the bottom of the supply chain. It's about how we treat every single person within an organization or corporation. So this is about changing the way that the global crises are currently happening around environment and you know, displacement and war, and all the things that we can possibly look. All of those are impacted by how we sell and how we market. So instead of looking at it just from our individual lens of how can I still sell things, which is also [00:35:00] important and just as valid and looking at, you know, the bigger picture that has, if we all, you know, spun in that direction, then maybe there's a way we can change things. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really about taking responsibility but also giving back responsibility to the consumers because it really plays together. Right. And that's what I feel like we've taken away, , a lot. Yeah. I agree. Thank you so much. We could go on and on and on for hours. I, I'm sure. But, , yeah, please tell listeners where they can start to, you know, take ownership, be responsible, take the pledge, tell us everything, Alice: , so we can be found on the ethical move.org. , we'd love your pledge. , it's basically a three part pledge that. Sets the sets the intention. It's an intention pledge. There are resources that we're sharing around how to change [00:36:00] tactics. And then of course there's a community which you're also part of, , which is where we actually work on this and we exchange things and we have workshops and, , events happening, , and where we all sort of get to have this collective discourse. , and. I think the best place to start is just sort of taking stop, you know, like looking at what's in front of you, taking, making a touchpoint review maybe, or looking at what the first step could be and, and following what immediately comes to mind to take on. If it's like, oh, I wanna look at my pricing strategy and really understand what my pricing means and how I can maybe make it more, beneficial or a little sort of just better for the people who buy from me, maybe in other countries, or, just even that is a huge topic and understanding that it takes time. Like if that topic takes you half a year, then good for you. Mine's I'm still going , it's taken me a year so far, so really understanding that this is a lifelong journey and it's probably gonna go on beyond our lifetime. So just keep, just Sarah: [00:37:00] keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. , I'm so glad you didn't give us a, you know, three steps, . Nope. Here's the easy three steps. Like, yeah, I wish, I wish it was that easy, Alice: right? No, it's not. And it's, and it's totally fine that it's not because it, we're all in the same boat together, or maybe not in the exact same boat, but we're on the same ocean like it just is. A collective effort and the idea that we need to muddle through on our own, as you know, with your community is just, yeah, it's over. It's done. We're, we're done with that. Now I feel like we're, I think we're done with that. Yeah. We can stop being individuals on our own. Scared and lonely . Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for this collaboration because it is a collaboration, right? It's a partnership and a, and I really appreciate having you on. So thank you so much. Thank. Alice: Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Thanks.

Today's topic is Ethical Marketing and I'm speaking to Alica Karolina about it. Alice is a brand coach + strategist and the founder of The Ethical Move, working with changemakers to find + use their voice. She believes making an impact in a changing world requires a new way of thinking and communicating — businesses that stand out tell stories of substance, share products that serve the world, and sell with integrity. It takes courage to fully trust oneself and leave the status quo behind. But if we stop looking outside for answers, we discover we already have the power, knowledge, and ability to make this world work for everyone. In this episode, you'll learn about ethical marketing as well as... Ethics and how Alice defines it for her Ethical Move Whether marketing is unethical by default The unethical practices we've all being bombarded with daily How we can change those into ethical practices - and still sell. How the new economy can look like if it was up to us How you too can take the ethical pledge And so much more Alice's Resources Alice's Website The Ethical Move Connect with Alice on: LinkedIn Facebook Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Alice. So good to see you and hear Alice: you. Thank you so much for having me Sarah: here. Yeah, thank you. I think this is probably the only time that I get to chat in Swiss German on the podcast, even though it's before we hit record, but it's definitely the only time ever I get to speak in my mother tongue and dialect, and it's just. I don't know. It just feels like home, so it's good to be home. Alice: I know. Likewise, I feel exactly the same way. I actually spoke to some friends of mine back home, like via voice message just this morning to get into the groove of things. Cuz I have to remember my native tongue. , I love this. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. But obviously you are not in Switzerland. , you are in, , Canada and not. Eastern side, but the western side. So even more complex to get to talk to each other. But I'm so delighted that you're here and it's kind of a funny story actually, the [00:01:00] way, , we met, or I guess like all of these stories online is just kind of sometimes serendipity, but, , you're the, the founder of the ethical, , move This movement has been mentioned to me a few times in the past and, and I had to look at the website and I was like, oh, that's great. Know what they're doing. , I told you that I think in a conversation it looked very, , so branded and then obviously you were a brand specialist. So it all makes sense, but I, I thought, okay, there's like a company behind it, or like a huge team, so I didn't. Investigate further until it was mentioned to me again and have you, , taken. , it's not a pledge. What, what do you call it? The No, it is a pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. So have you taken the Ethical Pledge? And I'm like, oh yeah, that thing I gotta, you know, look at it again. And so I did. And then I was really curious, , let me look who's behind it, and then mm-hmm. , you know, here we are, find out [00:02:00] that you are, , fellow Swiss and Swiss German, which is just, yeah. Really funny. So I'm delighted to be here. Definitely very, very like-minded because you're, yeah. You're building something very similar to me and I'm just, , super excited about it. Yeah. Alice: So likewise. I know. It's so cool to have, it's interesting to me as well, because we clearly have very similar mindsets around it, and it's unsurprising to me because of the sort of collaborative way that Switzerland works in a way, . In politics in the way that we interact. I feel like because we're such a densely populated place as well, I feel like we are immediately enmeshed with other people whether we want to or not. , and so I feel like there's a lot more understanding and personal responsibility around the collective. That's my, my experience anyway. So it, , it doesn't surprise me that we would have . This feeling of, hey, this could be done differently if we sort of [00:03:00] take the collective into account. , so yeah, it's cool to actually finally have this conversation with someone who gets it, . Yeah, Sarah: yeah. No, it's, it's amazing. I never thought of it that way, but it's true. I come from this hippie upbringing and I always just thought, well, That's why I'm community driven. , but you're right. If you think about the political, organization of Switzerland and, and the fact that we are sandwiched in between all these other countries and that we speak, you know, at least three languages, uh, fluently, , it does make it, yeah, kind of more like, you know, oriented towards the other. Alice: yeah, in the good and the bad . Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Right. Well, let's dive into the, the topic and, what I wanna unpack is your ethical move. And in that kind of starts with maybe defining ethics, because when you think about ethics, there. So many aspects to [00:04:00] ethics, and I'm just curious to know how you define it and what you understand by it. Because the ethical move is, is yes, it's about ethics and business, but then it's also very specifically about marketing, from what I've seen on your website and from what I know now from the community. So tell us how you define ethics, right? For the Alice: big, big guns. Hey, . Yeah, I, , I have to say I'm not an ethics major in any way. I haven't studied it. I have studied marketing and sales in all their various forms. So for me, really it comes down to what I know to be called applied ethics, the way that we actually use, , the concepts. I would say a collective common good, , which comes from my understanding, there's, there's a few different viewpoints on this and I feel like people learn it differently in different countries and all the ways that they're [00:05:00] educated. , But to me there was always a difference between morals and ethics in the sense that morals is very subjective and personal. And then ethics is, sort of collective and society driven and how do we interact, , with each other. So, , I find it's almost like a collective decision to. For the common good, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. . So all the various ways in which it shows up from the very personal to professional to all the different, , areas that it touches, which is basically everything that humans touch . , we have different ways that we apply ethics, , and I think that we sort of as a growing society, Humans, you know, taking over the planet. we need to sort of take more of that into account, I think. And so the ethical move really was sort of a nod to, hey, what is a collective situation right now where we are all humans and our customers are our products, , our businesses are not just ways to make money, but also [00:06:00] very much have to do relationship and how we are human together and. Sort of bringing business and all of that into the field of, hey, this is a place where we can also do good in the world. And it's not just, you know, politics or government that takes care of welfare, , you know, we are also responsible for that as citizens in, in our own selves, like as humans, but then also as citizens, as businesses, right? Because legally we are required. Technically we are a citizen, , in our countries as businesses. And so really looking at what the responsibility of that means. So that's a bit of a broad, probably context, but Yeah, Sarah: no, that, that makes total sense because I feel like yeah, ethics really has these different layers and it's like global layers. Like, you know, you can even talk about environmental ethics. So you know, very in the psychic obviously, , and then. I guess down level would be governments and [00:07:00] countries, and then you're taking another level down. Then it's humans and, and you can talk about yeah. Humans in a workplace. , you can talk about the relationships between humans, so like gender ethics, I guess. And then what, what you are talking, , specifically is. Yeah. It's almost like consumer and cus Yeah. Consumer ethics maybe as individuals, but also as entrepreneurs and, and business owners, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's, it's just so similar to what we're trying to do here with Humane Marketing. It's like, yeah, let's, let's use marketing and let's use business as a liver for good. That's really what we're doing. Right? And then, And, and you come from this background in, in marketing and and sales as well. So I'm just curious to hear whether you think marketing has always been [00:08:00] unethical, like , has that always been the way it is or has it gotten worse over the last 10, 20 years? Alice: A good question. I mean, marketing in itself is not unethical. I don't actually wanna eradicate marketing. That to me is not. The goal here, , even thinking, you know, our common experience of the Saturday market with everyone, you know, yelling about their wares and, , with the beautiful smell of fresh tomatoes. And I just feel like market itself is not unethical. , just like the word influence is not unethical or ethical. They're neutral terms. I think what has happened is, Over the years, and I wanna go back even further, like in the early 19 hundreds, , people discovering psychology as a ways to do marketing. So using psychological tricks to like, for the first time, discovering psychology being a thing, you know, obviously. And then, and then really sinking [00:09:00] into what can be done with it. How can we use it in order to sell our things? . , and then from there, just kind of like the extrapolation of that through suddenly having a mass market and then suddenly having mass media available. , I think the, the possibilities to use it just grew and grew and grew. And I don't think we had, I mean, some people have a bit of an achy feeling about it, and I'm sure people in the fifties and sixties and seventies had moments of like, this might not be great. Or, or sort of like, There is a bit of a stench to it when you just sell for the purpose of selling or when you, you know, you work for a company that you know is harmful to people on the planet, , to sell their stuff. , and even as marketers today, right? Most of our, probably most of our community members, most of the people in our, in our sphere experience, Marketing is something almost dirty, right? Something that we don't wanna do. However, in itself, it has just been tainted with [00:10:00] this idea that humans are a commodity, humans are a product, , and using sort of these tricks to bypass our humanity in order to sell things. Selling more and more and more of things we don't naturally need, creating false needs, creating this, this unimaginably harmful feeling of not being enough. We're not having enough, which is just, it permeates everything, all of us, right, on either side of the spectrum, whether we are selling or being sold to. We all have this experience of I must get as much as I can for as little as possible. whether it be effort or money or, you know, and so I think that the experience of marketing has become a lot more complex with the amount of, just sheer amount of people and ways to reach them. And then it also has. Become more insidious because we know more about the brain and we [00:11:00] learn more about it and more studies are being done and how we can, you know, how we can use scent and how we can use music and how we can use different ways of influencing people, in, in a direction that is actually not based in their own conscious choice. So in that way, it has become more unethical, but not because in itself it's unethical, but because we have lost sort of. Yeah, I do think we have lost touch in a lot of ways to, you know, what is actually good for us, you know, which in the heart of hearts, we're usually just like peace of mind, quiet, family life, you know, if we're getting right down to our true desires, it's usually not more stuff. That's where I see it landing on a Sarah: spectrum. Yeah. And I love this. When you said, we've, we've kind of started to bypass our humanity. That's exactly what's happening. , and I think. Maybe what, what I would add is also the use of technology has increased. Yeah. Uh, over the last, you know, maybe 10, 20 years. And so [00:12:00] even more, we've lost touch with the human side of things because we realized all the things that we can use. All the technology that we can use to automate everything and more and more and more, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's totally that loss of humanity that made things unethical and that once you're in that cycle of greed for always more is really, really hard to break away from it, right? Yeah. And I think that's why we're finding ourselves in this difficult transition. Your gut knows it's wrong to do certain things, but your brain is telling you, well, yeah, but it makes money. So, why would I stop it? Yeah. So yeah, I think that's the question. So how do we, you know, change those bad practices into ethical practices and, and still make money? I guess, yeah, we [00:13:00] still do wanna make money, but, but maybe that's maybe the next conversation. Well do. We also need to change our approach to money, but first let's discuss how do we, how do we change those practices and, and still sell? Alice: I think there's a misconception that ethical tactics, Ethical ways of using those tactics or flipping them on their heads, , somehow results in no sales, or less sales. And yes, on a large, large scale, of course, if you, you know, stop using term prices or if you stop visually merchandising, if you stop, you know, yes, those were. Specifically the ways that, you know, stores are laid out and the way that we have these little trinkets by the cash register, like all of those things were specifically designed based on our, our brains, how they work. So if you do take those away, [00:14:00] then yes, you would sell less. , But if we look at the very sort of, simple service, service based business, , with maybe a couple of services to sell, it's not gonna have that impact. It's probably more built on relationship than anything else. So using psychological tactics, in my opinion, undermines that relationship and undermines that trust. So in, in my world, , the way I see it anyways, is, If we start with trust and we start with honesty, and we start with relationship and truth, we actually gain a lot more in the long run. We might not sell in the immediate because it's not a high pressure situation, but people will always need to have their problems solved, and there will always be people with those answers. So I feel. If we have a good product, whether it be a service or an actual product or anything else that you, that you sell, and you have like a really, a really clear message around it and you have, and you're aligned [00:15:00] with, you know, what you're actually trying to do in the world, then the people that need that will find you. It's a pretty simple equation in my opinion. It's just, here's the thing, this is how much it costs. What do you. and the other person could say yes or no. And to me, especially in today's world where we talk about consent, , so much, and it's so important, obviously , for all the obvious reasons, why is consent not considered important in marketing and sales? Because that's all we're doing is like, Hey, here's the facts, here's everything laid out for you. And now do you agree or do you not? And maybe you change your mind like. We're allowed to change our minds midway through a sales process. We're allowed to, you know, yes, it sucks on the other end, of course, we've all been there. You know, we're this close to signing a contract, and then the person is like, nevermind, I can't do it. But in the end, We actually make a sale that is beneficial to both sides, and that will result in referrals, that will result in word of mouth, that will result in better [00:16:00] relationships down the road. Recurring sales, which happens a lot that we just sort of forget in the frenzy of this, like corporate imitation. You know, we, we think that those rules are the only ways we can. , but it's, they're not, it's just how we've grown up. That's all. It's like, well, this is my parents' religion doesn't mean I have to adopt it. , but we were grown, you know, we were grown into that and we were educated in that. So it makes complete sense that we would adopt them, and it makes complete sense that we would adopt the mindset that we can't sell outside of them, but we can. It's just we're not doing it. That's. . it's pretty simple in my opinion. But then again, everybody has a business they need to take care of and I think that really getting down to what is your product and how do you sell it in a sense of like, what is actually the message and what are you, what is it within and who are you serving? That's more important than how can I best bypass their conscious choice, Sarah: yeah. , so much in there, what I always say is like there's this huge gap now between.[00:17:00] The consciousness of the current consumer and, , how we still market to them, , like we did back in the sixties. So marketing hasn't changed, and yes, consciousness of the consumer has changed, like over the five, last five years. A huge evolutionary jump, right? And yet we're still treating customers as if they're completely stupid and like they didn't know that we're actually tricking them. And, and so I, I feel like maybe the old way of marketing this pushy way will work for another maybe two, maybe five, who knows, maybe even 10 years. Things are evolving even faster now. And so eventually customers will not buy with those, , manipulative things anymore. And so what are the companies are gonna do then? Well, if they don't change their strategies now and go with trust and relationships, well they're gonna, [00:18:00] they're gonna go, bankrupt in a few years. And I think it's really, really important to realize that now, even though it's hard because they have to step out of that hustle. Mode. It really is a lot of unlearning and saying, okay, I'm gonna step out of the hustle mode because obviously these pushy methods, they do create sales and instant sales. For now still. Right, but they don't create a sustainable business, that's the thing. Alice: Yes. And I do wanna add to that. There are also more insidious ways being built into how to sell. Like we do have to remember that there's new technology for those who want to sell more, behind the scenes as well, like, Ways in which that technology really comes into play. Like learning to read people's emotional cues on Zoom. Like that's one thing that is starting to become a problem where people are using that in high pressure sales situations, you know? Wow. So we do have to remember that, that [00:19:00] that technology is not resting. , the way to sell more at profit is, is it late stage? Do they say, call it late stage capitalism or something? It, it is holding on for dear. Life. Like we have to remember that. So it's Sarah: this collision between the two worlds, right? We see that in politics too. It's like the old power wants to grab on as much as they can and the new world is slowly developing. But you're totally right. It's not gonna change just from one day to the Alice: next. No. So we do have to, I do think we have a responsibility and this is why we exist. You and I, , and our teams. We have the responsibility to point to those things and say, Hey, zoom is doing this thing. Hey, there's dark patterns. Hey, there's places in which we don't even know we're being tricked. Yes, we can identify when it's $99. We're like, yeah, that's a char price. We get it. Like people are starting to understand that that's a thing we've always known. It's not 99, you know? But the insidious behind it, there's still places that that can [00:20:00] go. And so reminding ourselves and, and sort of like, it'll be a daily practice of doing it differently because it will keep. Doing the thing, and we will keep having to, you know, stay grounded and not participate, which is so hard, even for me. I mean, I feel like you and I have studied this stuff for so long, right? It's just I can't handle it. I need to like step away from the computer, like put that away for 24 hours. It's a thing that I really need to practice. So, yeah. Sarah: but that, but that's exactly why we're both creating communities, right? Because you exactly, there's, there's also not enough examples. Of this more humane or ethical ways. And, and so if you don't see the example, well you're gonna follow what the big gurus tell you to do, which is Yeah, which is just the same old thing. So once people see more of the ethical marketing, the humane marketing, that's when they have a new. Kind of not, we [00:21:00] don't wanna be gurus, that's for sure. But they have a new example to follow and say, oh, it does work that way as well. , and what I talk a lot about in marketing, like we're human, is like, well, you have to figure out what works for you. Not just, you know, find a new guru and follow them. It's like, no, you have to bring all of you to, to your marketing. And so yeah, these communities are so important. Alice: And I think that's exactly the point. And that's what I feel like my, my point to all of my work in all the ways , not even just the ethical move, but also in my branding work is how can I get you to listen in as opposed to out? What is the way that I can establish a really strong voice from within that you don't need to continuously participate in what is being told, , because the narrative isn't healthy for anyone. And. I mean the current narrative. And so taking up that space and changing that is also part of it, right? Going back inside and going back to listen to what we really want and what our desires are and what, you know, what's good for our loved ones. [00:22:00] Yeah. Remembering that day in and day out because we are so inundated with those messages of, like what our bodies are supposed to look like and what our minds are supposed to look like and how productive we supposed to be, and all the things in which we We're not enough. We're not perfect. We're not, we're not perfect. We're never gonna make it. And no matter how many times we learn about, the, the perfect body doesn't exist, we know that, calories are a sham. We know that like all these things still, somehow I look at the calorie tag in a grocery store, like, what is it? I know it's bogus. Anyway, it just, we just have to keep grounding ourselves within ourselves and within our communities. Sarah: Why we do what we do. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and before I hinted at the definition of success and that maybe we also need to work on that, right? And, and so that's part of it, that is that work on the being. And so how do you do that with maybe with. Your clients in, in branding because I really feel like, whether we're [00:23:00] branding now or we're marketing or we're selling, it all comes back to first figuring out who we are and it's, it's just so sometimes really difficult for people to understand that. We're now marketing, but we're doing personal development first before we ever go out into, you know, creating a brand or, or, or market or anything like that. So how do you work with Alice: clients on that? That's exactly it. I think the, that's the part of branding that I enjoy the most anyways. the other side of it, you know, how do you sell better? How do you market better? How do you message better? That to me is almost, has gotten a bit tired, I feel. The identity piece is such a strong core anchoring that kind of makes everything else make. Continuously and reliably and sustainably. , because otherwise you just put blown around in the winds of change, right? Like it's constantly moving and having a really strong, rooted, grounded knowledge of yourself [00:24:00] and what you care about. , that is huge. And I also think, I mean, definition of success , is probably one of the bigger ones and it always, it gets talked about so much and I feel like we. This idea that it's, well, it's not, it's not this, it has to be this, you know, it's not like we know it's not money, so what else is it? Or we know it's not, you know, and still we obviously have desires that live within us and there's something that I've recently learned, , from many sources around desire, which is to like trust them and that they are inherent and they don't change. They are who we. . Like, we can't, we can't, there's no choice in our desires. And so what I've been practicing just based on this, is just tracking my desires, like writing them down every day. Mm-hmm. , what are my desires? Love, affection, laughter, joy. Mm-hmm. , freedom, peace. Like whatever it is that in the day, on the day and the moment that I'm writing it is [00:25:00] like my deepest desire in that moment. Writing it down and trusting that that is where I wanna go. And I feel like since then, The way that I look at what I actually want has completely changed, and I do think there's a difference between what I want and what I desire in the sense that desire is sort of innate and what I want can be very shifty and weird sometimes, you know, it could one Sarah: day. Could it be that what you want is also maybe more material? , little bit. Alice: It could be. It's more in the moment. I think my desire feels more like something that is like in the core from who I am, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I noticed this the most when I was recently, like, I checked myself because I. Counting my hours for the week, you know, I, I track my hours for everything that I do, just so I know where I'm placing my time. And then at the end of the week, because of my sort of neurodiversity, because I have ADHD and complex ptsd, and there's lots of like ways in which I was always told that I was either lazy or not doing enough or whatever, you know, like the millions of ways that we are [00:26:00] being told were not enough again. I noticed myself wanting to get to a really high number at the end of the week of like collective hours worked, and I'm like, oh, only 30. Like I didn't do, , I should be. And then I checked myself for like the first time and went, why am I trying to get more hours out of me? Like, what is this I wrote down this morning. My desire is freedom to like lay in the sun in the middle of the day. Like that doesn't actually work with working more. So I had a moment, like a real sort of like insight where I thought, what if I count the hours of pleasure and leisure instead , and count that as a win, you know, instead of how many hours I work. And that really just, I feel like. Individually, obviously this works for me, but individually, everybody, like I wish everybody had the chance to just kind of go reverse that and kind of go, well, what's possible for me? And of course within that comes privilege, right? I am privileged enough that I can work 30 [00:27:00] hours and make a living. , other people cannot. And that is also part of this definition of success, has to be. What do I need to do to make a living that doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing that makes me happy? It would be nice, but sometimes we have to, just go, okay, the world is what it is and I need to make money for it. , but disentangling that from what we desire and how we wanna live our days, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, Sarah: that was a bit of a tangent. . Yeah, no, it's, it's really good because cuz we are placing this, this conversation on the, the p of people and, and, you know, I should have called it humans, but, but that didn't start with a p so, so it is all about the being human and being human as an entrepreneur and having, yeah, having so much to unlearn really. , that's what comes to mind. It's like, All these things that we think we should be doing, especially in marketing. Another thing that's kind of timely, because we're at the end of the year, is a goal setting, right? [00:28:00] So, , yeah, I'm thinking about goal setting, like we're human , and I know, uh, Tara McMullen just came up with a book about goal setting in, in a radically different way, and excited to read, read her book. That is part of that pressure. It's like, oh, I only work 30 hours per week. I should be doing much more. I should have all these goals of how much income I'm gonna make next year and all of that. And yeah, we, we. Need to shift everything because, otherwise absolutely. We feel like we, , if we have these huge goals, numbers that we want to achieve, then obviously we're gonna fall into the trap of I have to market and I have to hustle and I have to sell so much. It just, yeah, it goes hand in hand. Absolutely. Alice: One of the things I learned from Tara is having a commitment first approach to the goals like, What are my commitments for the year? And then matching those goals to them. And then one thing I learned from Marie Collin, [00:29:00] who's our, , resident notion expert, , The idea of setting identity goals as well as smart goals, you know? Mm-hmm. , like having goals around who I'm becoming or who I want to become, like, for her, it's like being a great facilitator of her course or things like that. And for me, it might be being a really good steward of this land and learning more about, you know, our aboriginal roots and so, what are identity goals that actually match, you know, who we are as humans. And of course we have smart goals because we also have businesses with numbers. Like we also have goals that need to have a specific outcome, but maybe they can live parallel to these, sort of like more personal. Real goals that we have, and maybe they don't, they're not called goals anymore then, but I don't know. I just feel like that might be a worthy exercise. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's kind of like how I talk about the new business paradigm, and you call it the New Economy, is is that goal setting? That's in Terror . Oh, is [00:30:00] it? Okay. Yeah. Alice: Yeah. Tara actually called it the New Economy because she said, We are gonna inform government. We're the largest growing sector of small businesses online. , and that is the place we're going to. So the new economy is not just this like corporate, you know, these Bama, but all of us little ones. , and that is partially why I started following her and became part of her community, , because of. Sort of outset of saying, Hey, we are that impactful. And it probably started a lot of the conversation around the ethical move as well. Because if we are the new economy, if we are basically what's gonna like the example of what's next, then we better, we better take the responsibility, right. You know, that we have with that and start acting as if, you know. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. I love it. Anything else? We talked about goal setting, we talked about ethical marketing. What else fits in [00:31:00] that new economy, Alice: for you? I think the biggest part that we keep forgetting, well, we might not forget, but we see it a bit of, , a bit of, as a checklist is, , our collective liberation. I. Understanding that, well, other people might call it social justice or whatever you wanna call it. , we call it collective liberation because, well, first of all, liberation is the biggest word we can find for everyone to be free because as you know, many people have said the world is not free until we're all, all free, or the world doesn't work unless it works for everyone. , so the understanding that we are in a big collective and that we are all working together on this and that we. Supposed to be alone. This is just a very western, northern, you know, capitalist mentality that we are on our own and we need to individually muddle our way through this. Rugged individualism has not helped us, and it is not how the global South usually operates either. So [00:32:00] learning from people who are living collectively or being in collection, in collect. Really will inform how we can go forward. So that is also something that we practice in the ethical move. Like what is this consensus collective, community driven, way we can be together and we can learn together so that no one person is gonna tell us. You know, I'm not the expert in ethical marketing. That's why I built a community. I'm not, that's why I have, you know, a team of nine people. I can't do this on my own, nor should I, because the collective is what's gonna get us to the next stage. , and like taking our time, slowing down, not just, you know, on the technology side of things. Yes, sure. Unplug your phone at eight to 8:00 PM whatever, like, do your thing, but also understanding. It takes time to process things and it, and processing is important and nuance is important. And understanding each moment that we are aware of a change or aware of [00:33:00] something that is shifting within us to give ourselves grace and the people around us, grace, to go through those shifts and to have process take place so that. We can come out the other end with like, okay, so I don't have all the answers yet, but I do have a sort of a sense of where I wanna go next and I'm gonna try some things and then see if the people around me agree. And then we keep going in this like very collective consensus based way and that hopefully will help the most marginalized. In the way that it's supposed to help, not by us white saviors going down and building schools in Africa. Oh my gosh. I'm saying that in quotation marks cuz I just, philanthropy and I don't have a good time together, , . But this idea of, you know, what is a way that we can all be because we're all benefit, if the most marginalized among us benefits, then it works for all of us. So yeah, that's basically the, the biggest underlying piece I think that we don't focus on enough in my. Yeah, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so many [00:34:00] challenges that we need to focus on, and, and you're, you're right. I mean, we, we do have a responsibility to take and, you know, if we haven't taken it yet, it's about time. , yeah, Alice: absolutely. I think there's something in addition to that full circle to ethical marketing, which that's the part that I think that ethical market. Sometimes people misinterpret it as, you know, how can I sell better? How can I make it so that I don't feel icky about myself? But I really wanna bring it out and zoom it out and say, it is about the bottom of the supply chain. It's about how we treat every single person within an organization or corporation. So this is about changing the way that the global crises are currently happening around environment and you know, displacement and war, and all the things that we can possibly look. All of those are impacted by how we sell and how we market. So instead of looking at it just from our individual lens of how can I still sell things, which is also [00:35:00] important and just as valid and looking at, you know, the bigger picture that has, if we all, you know, spun in that direction, then maybe there's a way we can change things. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really about taking responsibility but also giving back responsibility to the consumers because it really plays together. Right. And that's what I feel like we've taken away, , a lot. Yeah. I agree. Thank you so much. We could go on and on and on for hours. I, I'm sure. But, , yeah, please tell listeners where they can start to, you know, take ownership, be responsible, take the pledge, tell us everything, Alice: , so we can be found on the ethical move.org. , we'd love your pledge. , it's basically a three part pledge that. Sets the sets the intention. It's an intention pledge. There are resources that we're sharing around how to change [00:36:00] tactics. And then of course there's a community which you're also part of, , which is where we actually work on this and we exchange things and we have workshops and, , events happening, , and where we all sort of get to have this collective discourse. , and. I think the best place to start is just sort of taking stop, you know, like looking at what's in front of you, taking, making a touchpoint review maybe, or looking at what the first step could be and, and following what immediately comes to mind to take on. If it's like, oh, I wanna look at my pricing strategy and really understand what my pricing means and how I can maybe make it more, beneficial or a little sort of just better for the people who buy from me, maybe in other countries, or, just even that is a huge topic and understanding that it takes time. Like if that topic takes you half a year, then good for you. Mine's I'm still going , it's taken me a year so far, so really understanding that this is a lifelong journey and it's probably gonna go on beyond our lifetime. So just keep, just Sarah: [00:37:00] keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. , I'm so glad you didn't give us a, you know, three steps, . Nope. Here's the easy three steps. Like, yeah, I wish, I wish it was that easy, Alice: right? No, it's not. And it's, and it's totally fine that it's not because it, we're all in the same boat together, or maybe not in the exact same boat, but we're on the same ocean like it just is. A collective effort and the idea that we need to muddle through on our own, as you know, with your community is just, yeah, it's over. It's done. We're, we're done with that. Now I feel like we're, I think we're done with that. Yeah. We can stop being individuals on our own. Scared and lonely . Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for this collaboration because it is a collaboration, right? It's a partnership and a, and I really appreciate having you on. So thank you so much. Thank. Alice: Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Thanks.

Today's topic is Ethical Marketing and I'm speaking to Alica Karolina about it. Alice is a brand coach + strategist and the founder of The Ethical Move, working with changemakers to find + use their voice. She believes making an impact in a changing world requires a new way of thinking and communicating — businesses that stand out tell stories of substance, share products that serve the world, and sell with integrity. It takes courage to fully trust oneself and leave the status quo behind. But if we stop looking outside for answers, we discover we already have the power, knowledge, and ability to make this world work for everyone. In this episode, you'll learn about ethical marketing as well as...   Ethics and how Alice defines it for her Ethical Move Whether marketing is unethical by default The unethical practices we've all being bombarded with daily How we can change those into ethical practices - and still sell. How the new economy can look like if it was up to us How you too can take the ethical pledge And so much more Alice's Resources   Alice's Website The Ethical Move Connect with Alice on: LinkedIn Facebook   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Alice. So good to see you and hear  Alice: you. Thank you so much for having me  Sarah: here. Yeah, thank you. I think this is probably the only time that I get to chat in Swiss German on the podcast, even though it's before we hit record, but it's definitely the only time ever I get to speak in my mother tongue and dialect, and it's just. I don't know. It just feels like home, so it's good to be home.  Alice: I know. Likewise, I feel exactly the same way. I actually spoke to some friends of mine back home, like via voice message just this morning to get into the groove of things. Cuz I have to remember my native tongue. , I love this.  Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. But obviously you are not in Switzerland. , you are in, , Canada and not. Eastern side, but the western side. So even more complex to get to talk to each other. But I'm so delighted that you're here and it's kind of a funny story actually, the [00:01:00] way, , we met, or I guess like all of these stories online is just kind of sometimes serendipity, but, , you're the, the founder of the ethical, , move This movement has been mentioned to me a few times in the past and, and I had to look at the website and I was like, oh, that's great. Know what they're doing. , I told you that I think in a conversation it looked very, , so branded and then obviously you were a brand specialist. So it all makes sense, but I, I thought, okay, there's like a company behind it, or like a huge team, so I didn't. Investigate further until it was mentioned to me again and have you, , taken. , it's not a pledge. What, what do you call it? The No, it is a pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. So have you taken the Ethical Pledge? And I'm like, oh yeah, that thing I gotta, you know, look at it again. And so I did. And then I was really curious, , let me look who's behind it, and then mm-hmm. , you know, here we are, find out [00:02:00] that you are, , fellow Swiss and Swiss German, which is just, yeah. Really funny. So I'm delighted to be here. Definitely very, very like-minded because you're, yeah. You're building something very similar to me and I'm just, , super excited about it. Yeah.  Alice: So likewise. I know. It's so cool to have, it's interesting to me as well, because we clearly have very similar mindsets around it, and it's unsurprising to me because of the sort of collaborative way that Switzerland works in a way, . In politics in the way that we interact. I feel like because we're such a densely populated place as well, I feel like we are immediately enmeshed with other people whether we want to or not. , and so I feel like there's a lot more understanding and personal responsibility around the collective. That's my, my experience anyway. So it, , it doesn't surprise me that we would have . This feeling of, hey, this could be done differently if we sort of [00:03:00] take the collective into account. , so yeah, it's cool to actually finally have this conversation with someone who gets it, . Yeah,  Sarah: yeah. No, it's, it's amazing. I never thought of it that way, but it's true. I come from this hippie upbringing and I always just thought, well, That's why I'm community driven. , but you're right. If you think about the political, organization of Switzerland and, and the fact that we are sandwiched in between all these other countries and that we speak, you know, at least three languages, uh, fluently, , it does make it, yeah, kind of more like, you know, oriented towards the other. Alice: yeah, in the good and the bad .  Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Right. Well, let's dive into the, the topic and, what I wanna unpack is your ethical move. And in that kind of starts with maybe defining ethics, because when you think about ethics, there. So many aspects to [00:04:00] ethics, and I'm just curious to know how you define it and what you understand by it. Because the ethical move is, is yes, it's about ethics and business, but then it's also very specifically about marketing, from what I've seen on your website and from what I know now from the community. So tell us how you define ethics, right? For the  Alice: big, big guns. Hey, . Yeah, I, , I have to say I'm not an ethics major in any way. I haven't studied it. I have studied marketing and sales in all their various forms. So for me, really it comes down to what I know to be called applied ethics, the way that we actually use, , the concepts. I would say a collective common good, , which comes from my understanding, there's, there's a few different viewpoints on this and I feel like people learn it differently in different countries and all the ways that they're [00:05:00] educated. , But to me there was always a difference between morals and ethics in the sense that morals is very subjective and personal. And then ethics is, sort of collective and society driven and how do we interact, , with each other. So, , I find it's almost like a collective decision to. For the common good, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. . So all the various ways in which it shows up from the very personal to professional to all the different, , areas that it touches, which is basically everything that humans touch . , we have different ways that we apply ethics, , and I think that we sort of as a growing society, Humans, you know, taking over the planet. we need to sort of take more of that into account, I think. And so the ethical move really was sort of a nod to, hey, what is a collective situation right now where we are all humans and our customers are our products, , our businesses are not just ways to make money, but also [00:06:00] very much have to do relationship and how we are human together and. Sort of bringing business and all of that into the field of, hey, this is a place where we can also do good in the world. And it's not just, you know, politics or government that takes care of welfare, , you know, we are also responsible for that as citizens in, in our own selves, like as humans, but then also as citizens, as businesses, right? Because legally we are required. Technically we are a citizen, , in our countries as businesses. And so really looking at what the responsibility of that means. So that's a bit of a broad, probably context, but Yeah,  Sarah: no, that, that makes total sense because I feel like yeah, ethics really has these different layers and it's like global layers. Like, you know, you can even talk about environmental ethics. So you know, very in the psychic obviously, , and then. I guess down level would be governments and [00:07:00] countries, and then you're taking another level down. Then it's humans and, and you can talk about yeah. Humans in a workplace. , you can talk about the relationships between humans, so like gender ethics, I guess.  And then what, what you are talking, , specifically is. Yeah. It's almost like consumer and cus Yeah. Consumer ethics maybe as individuals, but also as entrepreneurs and, and business owners, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's, it's just so similar to what we're trying to do here with Humane Marketing. It's like, yeah, let's, let's use marketing and let's use business as a liver for good. That's really what we're doing. Right? And then, And, and you come from this background in, in marketing and and sales as well. So I'm just curious to hear whether you think marketing has always been [00:08:00] unethical, like , has that always been the way it is or has it gotten worse over the last 10, 20 years? Alice: A good question. I mean, marketing in itself is not unethical. I don't actually wanna eradicate marketing. That to me is not. The goal here, , even thinking, you know, our common experience of the Saturday market with everyone, you know, yelling about their wares and, , with the beautiful smell of fresh tomatoes. And I just feel like market itself is not unethical. , just like the word influence is not unethical or ethical. They're neutral terms. I think what has happened is, Over the years, and I wanna go back even further, like in the early 19 hundreds, , people discovering psychology as a ways to do marketing.  So using psychological tricks to like, for the first time, discovering psychology being a thing, you know, obviously. And then, and then really sinking [00:09:00] into what can be done with it. How can we use it in order to sell our things? . , and then from there, just kind of like the extrapolation of that through suddenly having a mass market and then suddenly having mass media available. , I think the, the possibilities to use it just grew and grew and grew. And I don't think we had, I mean, some people have a bit of an achy feeling about it, and I'm sure people in the fifties and sixties and seventies had moments of like, this might not be great. Or, or sort of like, There is a bit of a stench to it when you just sell for the purpose of selling or when you, you know, you work for a company that you know is harmful to people on the planet, , to sell their stuff. , and even as marketers today, right? Most of our, probably most of our community members, most of the people in our, in our sphere experience, Marketing is something almost dirty, right? Something that we don't wanna do. However, in itself, it has just been tainted with [00:10:00] this idea that humans are a commodity, humans are a product, , and using sort of these tricks to bypass our humanity in order to sell things. Selling more and more and more of things we don't naturally need, creating false needs, creating this, this unimaginably harmful feeling of not being enough. We're not having enough, which is just, it permeates everything, all of us, right, on either side of the spectrum, whether we are selling or being sold to. We all have this experience of I must get as much as I can for as little as possible. whether it be effort or money or, you know, and so I think that the experience of marketing has become a lot more complex with the amount of, just sheer amount of people and ways to reach them. And then it also has. Become more insidious because we know more about the brain and we [00:11:00] learn more about it and more studies are being done and how we can, you know, how we can use scent and how we can use music and how we can use different ways of influencing people, in, in a direction that is actually not based in their own conscious choice. So in that way, it has become more unethical, but not because in itself it's unethical, but because we have lost sort of. Yeah, I do think we have lost touch in a lot of ways to, you know, what is actually good for us, you know, which in the heart of hearts, we're usually just like peace of mind, quiet, family life, you know, if we're getting right down to our true desires, it's usually not more stuff. That's where I see it landing on a  Sarah: spectrum. Yeah. And I love this. When you said, we've, we've kind of started to bypass our humanity. That's exactly what's happening. , and I think. Maybe what, what I would add is also the use of technology has increased. Yeah. Uh, over the last, you know, maybe 10, 20 years. And so [00:12:00] even more, we've lost touch with the human side of things because we realized all the things that we can use. All the technology that we can use to automate everything and more and more and more, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's totally that loss of humanity that made things unethical and that once you're in that cycle of greed for always more is really, really hard to break away from it, right? Yeah. And I think that's why we're finding ourselves in this difficult transition. Your gut knows it's wrong to do certain things, but your brain is telling you, well, yeah, but it makes money. So, why would I stop it? Yeah. So yeah, I think that's the question. So how do we, you know, change those bad practices into ethical practices and, and still make money? I guess, yeah, we [00:13:00] still do wanna make money, but, but maybe that's maybe the next conversation. Well do. We also need to change our approach to money, but first let's discuss how do we, how do we change those practices and, and still sell?  Alice: I think there's a misconception that ethical tactics, Ethical ways of using those tactics or flipping them on their heads, , somehow results in no sales, or less sales. And yes, on a large, large scale, of course, if you, you know, stop using term prices or if you stop visually merchandising, if you stop, you know, yes, those were. Specifically the ways that, you know, stores are laid out and the way that we have these little trinkets by the cash register, like all of those things were specifically designed based on our, our brains, how they work. So if you do take those away, [00:14:00] then yes, you would sell less. , But if we look at the very sort of, simple service, service based business, , with maybe a couple of services to sell, it's not gonna have that impact. It's probably more built on relationship than anything else. So using psychological tactics, in my opinion, undermines that relationship and undermines that trust. So in, in my world, , the way I see it anyways, is, If we start with trust and we start with honesty, and we start with relationship and truth, we actually gain a lot more in the long run. We might not sell in the immediate because it's not a high pressure situation, but people will always need to have their problems solved, and there will always be people with those answers. So I feel. If we have a good product, whether it be a service or an actual product or anything else that you, that you sell, and you have like a really, a really clear message around it and you have, and you're aligned [00:15:00] with, you know, what you're actually trying to do in the world, then the people that need that will find you. It's a pretty simple equation in my opinion. It's just, here's the thing, this is how much it costs. What do you. and the other person could say yes or no. And to me, especially in today's world where we talk about consent, , so much, and it's so important, obviously , for all the obvious reasons, why is consent not considered important in marketing and sales? Because that's all we're doing is like, Hey, here's the facts, here's everything laid out for you. And now do you agree or do you not? And maybe you change your mind like. We're allowed to change our minds midway through a sales process. We're allowed to, you know, yes, it sucks on the other end, of course, we've all been there. You know, we're this close to signing a contract, and then the person is like, nevermind, I can't do it. But in the end, We actually make a sale that is beneficial to both sides, and that will result in referrals, that will result in word of mouth, that will result in better [00:16:00] relationships down the road. Recurring sales, which happens a lot that we just sort of forget in the frenzy of this, like corporate imitation. You know, we, we think that those rules are the only ways we can. , but it's, they're not, it's just how we've grown up. That's all. It's like, well, this is my parents' religion doesn't mean I have to adopt it. , but we were grown, you know, we were grown into that and we were educated in that. So it makes complete sense that we would adopt them, and it makes complete sense that we would adopt the mindset that we can't sell outside of them, but we can. It's just we're not doing it. That's. . it's pretty simple in my opinion. But then again, everybody has a business they need to take care of and I think that really getting down to what is your product and how do you sell it in a sense of like, what is actually the message and what are you, what is it within and who are you serving? That's more important than how can I best bypass their conscious choice,  Sarah: yeah. , so much in there, what I always say is like there's this huge gap now between.[00:17:00] The consciousness of the current consumer and, , how we still market to them, , like we did back in the sixties. So marketing hasn't changed, and yes, consciousness of the consumer has changed, like over the five, last five years. A huge evolutionary jump, right? And yet we're still treating customers as if they're completely stupid and like they didn't know that we're actually tricking them. And, and so I, I feel like maybe the old way of marketing this pushy way will work for another maybe two, maybe five, who knows, maybe even 10 years. Things are evolving even faster now. And so eventually customers will not buy with those, , manipulative things anymore. And so what are the companies are gonna do then? Well, if they don't change their strategies now and go with trust and relationships, well they're gonna, [00:18:00] they're gonna go, bankrupt in a few years. And I think it's really, really important to realize that now, even though it's hard because they have to step out of that hustle. Mode. It really is a lot of unlearning and saying, okay, I'm gonna step out of the hustle mode because obviously these pushy methods, they do create sales and instant sales. For now still. Right, but they don't create a sustainable business, that's the thing.  Alice: Yes. And I do wanna add to that. There are also more insidious ways being built into how to sell. Like we do have to remember that there's new technology for those who want to sell more, behind the scenes as well, like, Ways in which that technology really comes into play. Like learning to read people's emotional cues on Zoom. Like that's one thing that is starting to become a problem where people are using that in high pressure sales situations, you know? Wow. So we do have to remember that, that [00:19:00] that technology is not resting. , the way to sell more at profit is, is it late stage? Do they say, call it late stage capitalism or something? It, it is holding on for dear. Life. Like we have to remember that. So it's  Sarah: this collision between the two worlds, right? We see that in politics too. It's like the old power wants to grab on as much as they can and the new world is slowly developing. But you're totally right. It's not gonna change just from one day to the  Alice: next. No. So we do have to, I do think we have a responsibility and this is why we exist. You and I, , and our teams. We have the responsibility to point to those things and say, Hey, zoom is doing this thing. Hey, there's dark patterns. Hey, there's places in which we don't even know we're being tricked. Yes, we can identify when it's $99. We're like, yeah, that's a char price. We get it. Like people are starting to understand that that's a thing we've always known. It's not 99, you know? But the insidious behind it, there's still places that that can [00:20:00] go. And so reminding ourselves and, and sort of like, it'll be a daily practice of doing it differently because it will keep. Doing the thing, and we will keep having to, you know, stay grounded and not participate, which is so hard, even for me. I mean, I feel like you and I have studied this stuff for so long, right? It's just I can't handle it. I need to like step away from the computer, like put that away for 24 hours. It's a thing that I really need to practice. So, yeah.  Sarah: but that, but that's exactly why we're both creating communities, right? Because you exactly, there's, there's also not enough examples. Of this more humane or ethical ways. And, and so if you don't see the example, well you're gonna follow what the big gurus tell you to do, which is Yeah, which is just the same old thing. So once people see more of the ethical marketing, the humane marketing, that's when they have a new. Kind of not, we [00:21:00] don't wanna be gurus, that's for sure. But they have a new example to follow and say, oh, it does work that way as well. , and what I talk a lot about in marketing, like we're human, is like, well, you have to figure out what works for you. Not just, you know, find a new guru and follow them. It's like, no, you have to bring all of you to, to your marketing. And so yeah, these communities are so important.  Alice: And I think that's exactly the point. And that's what I feel like my, my point to all of my work in all the ways , not even just the ethical move, but also in my branding work is how can I get you to listen in as opposed to out? What is the way that I can establish a really strong voice from within that you don't need to continuously participate in what is being told, , because the narrative isn't healthy for anyone. And. I mean the current narrative. And so taking up that space and changing that is also part of it, right? Going back inside and going back to listen to what we really want and what our desires are and what, you know, what's good for our loved ones. [00:22:00] Yeah. Remembering that day in and day out because we are so inundated with those messages of, like what our bodies are supposed to look like and what our minds are supposed to look like and how productive we supposed to be, and all the things in which we We're not enough. We're not perfect. We're not, we're not perfect. We're never gonna make it. And no matter how many times we learn about, the, the perfect body doesn't exist, we know that, calories are a sham. We know that like all these things still, somehow I look at the calorie tag in a grocery store, like, what is it? I know it's bogus. Anyway, it just, we just have to keep grounding ourselves within ourselves and within our communities.  Sarah: Why we do what we do. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and before I hinted at the definition of success and that maybe we also need to work on that, right? And, and so that's part of it, that is that work on the being. And so how do you do that with maybe with. Your clients in, in branding because I really feel like, whether we're [00:23:00] branding now or we're marketing or we're selling, it all comes back to first figuring out who we are and it's, it's just so sometimes really difficult for people to understand that. We're now marketing, but we're doing personal development first before we ever go out into, you know, creating a brand or, or, or market or anything like that. So how do you work with  Alice: clients on that? That's exactly it. I think the, that's the part of branding that I enjoy the most anyways. the other side of it, you know, how do you sell better? How do you market better? How do you message better? That to me is almost, has gotten a bit tired, I feel. The identity piece is such a strong core anchoring that kind of makes everything else make. Continuously and reliably and sustainably. , because otherwise you just put blown around in the winds of change, right? Like it's constantly moving and having a really strong, rooted, grounded knowledge of yourself [00:24:00] and what you care about. , that is huge. And I also think, I mean, definition of success , is probably one of the bigger ones and it always, it gets talked about so much and I feel like we. This idea that it's, well, it's not, it's not this, it has to be this, you know, it's not like we know it's not money, so what else is it? Or we know it's not, you know, and still we obviously have desires that live within us and there's something that I've recently learned, , from many sources around desire, which is to like trust them and that they are inherent and they don't change. They are who we. . Like, we can't, we can't, there's no choice in our desires. And so what I've been practicing just based on this, is just tracking my desires, like writing them down every day. Mm-hmm. , what are my desires? Love, affection, laughter, joy. Mm-hmm. , freedom, peace. Like whatever it is that in the day, on the day and the moment that I'm writing it is [00:25:00] like my deepest desire in that moment. Writing it down and trusting that that is where I wanna go. And I feel like since then, The way that I look at what I actually want has completely changed, and I do think there's a difference between what I want and what I desire in the sense that desire is sort of innate and what I want can be very shifty and weird sometimes, you know, it could one  Sarah: day. Could it be that what you want is also maybe more material? , little bit.  Alice: It could be. It's more in the moment. I think my desire feels more like something that is like in the core from who I am, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I noticed this the most when I was recently, like, I checked myself because I. Counting my hours for the week, you know, I, I track my hours for everything that I do, just so I know where I'm placing my time. And then at the end of the week, because of my sort of neurodiversity, because I have ADHD and complex ptsd, and there's lots of like ways in which I was always told that I was either lazy or not doing enough or whatever, you know, like the millions of ways that we are [00:26:00] being told were not enough again. I noticed myself wanting to get to a really high number at the end of the week of like collective hours worked, and I'm like, oh, only 30. Like I didn't do, , I should be. And then I checked myself for like the first time and went, why am I trying to get more hours out of me? Like, what is this I wrote down this morning. My desire is freedom to like lay in the sun in the middle of the day. Like that doesn't actually work with working more. So I had a moment, like a real sort of like insight where I thought, what if I count the hours of pleasure and leisure instead , and count that as a win, you know, instead of how many hours I work. And that really just, I feel like. Individually, obviously this works for me, but individually, everybody, like I wish everybody had the chance to just kind of go reverse that and kind of go, well, what's possible for me? And of course within that comes privilege, right? I am privileged enough that I can work 30 [00:27:00] hours and make a living. , other people cannot. And that is also part of this definition of success, has to be. What do I need to do to make a living that doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing that makes me happy? It would be nice, but sometimes we have to, just go, okay, the world is what it is and I need to make money for it. , but disentangling that from what we desire and how we wanna live our days, I guess. Yeah. Yeah,  Sarah: that was a bit of a tangent. . Yeah, no, it's, it's really good because cuz we are placing this, this conversation on the, the p of people and, and, you know, I should have called it humans, but, but that didn't start with a p so, so it is all about the being human and being human as an entrepreneur and having, yeah, having so much to unlearn really. , that's what comes to mind. It's like, All these things that we think we should be doing, especially in marketing. Another thing that's kind of timely, because we're at the end of the year, is a goal setting, right? [00:28:00] So, , yeah, I'm thinking about goal setting, like we're human , and I know, uh, Tara McMullen just came up with a book about goal setting in, in a radically different way, and excited to read, read her book. That is part of that pressure. It's like, oh, I only work 30 hours per week. I should be doing much more. I should have all these goals of how much income I'm gonna make next year and all of that. And yeah, we, we. Need to shift everything because, otherwise absolutely. We feel like we, , if we have these huge goals, numbers that we want to achieve, then obviously we're gonna fall into the trap of I have to market and I have to hustle and I have to sell so much. It just, yeah, it goes hand in hand. Absolutely.  Alice: One of the things I learned from Tara is having a commitment first approach to the goals like, What are my commitments for the year? And then matching those goals to them. And then one thing I learned from Marie Collin, [00:29:00] who's our, , resident notion expert, , The idea of setting identity goals as well as smart goals, you know? Mm-hmm. , like having goals around who I'm becoming or who I want to become, like, for her, it's like being a great facilitator of her course or things like that. And for me, it might be being a really good steward of this land and learning more about, you know, our aboriginal roots and so, what are identity goals that actually match, you know, who we are as humans. And of course we have smart goals because we also have businesses with numbers. Like we also have goals that need to have a specific outcome, but maybe they can live parallel to these, sort of like more personal. Real goals that we have, and maybe they don't, they're not called goals anymore then, but I don't know. I just feel like that might be a worthy exercise. Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's kind of like how I talk about the new business paradigm, and you call it the New Economy, is is that goal setting? That's in Terror . Oh, is [00:30:00] it? Okay. Yeah.  Alice: Yeah. Tara actually called it the New Economy because she said, We are gonna inform government. We're the largest growing sector of small businesses online. , and that is the place we're going to. So the new economy is not just this like corporate, you know, these Bama, but all of us little ones. , and that is partially why I started following her and became part of her community, , because of. Sort of outset of saying, Hey, we are that impactful. And it probably started a lot of the conversation around the ethical move as well. Because if we are the new economy, if we are basically what's gonna like the example of what's next, then we better, we better take the responsibility, right. You know, that we have with that and start acting as if, you know. Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. I love it. Anything else? We talked about goal setting, we talked about ethical marketing. What else fits in [00:31:00] that new economy,  Alice: for you? I think the biggest part that we keep forgetting, well, we might not forget, but we see it a bit of, , a bit of, as a checklist is, , our collective liberation. I. Understanding that, well, other people might call it social justice or whatever you wanna call it. , we call it collective liberation because, well, first of all, liberation is the biggest word we can find for everyone to be free because as you know, many people have said the world is not free until we're all, all free, or the world doesn't work unless it works for everyone. , so the understanding that we are in a big collective and that we are all working together on this and that we. Supposed to be alone. This is just a very western, northern, you know, capitalist mentality that we are on our own and we need to individually muddle our way through this. Rugged individualism has not helped us, and it is not how the global South usually operates either. So [00:32:00] learning from people who are living collectively or being in collection, in collect. Really will inform how we can go forward. So that is also something that we practice in the ethical move. Like what is this consensus collective, community driven, way we can be together and we can learn together so that no one person is gonna tell us. You know, I'm not the expert in ethical marketing. That's why I built a community. I'm not, that's why I have, you know, a team of nine people. I can't do this on my own, nor should I, because the collective is what's gonna get us to the next stage. , and like taking our time, slowing down, not just, you know, on the technology side of things. Yes, sure. Unplug your phone at eight to 8:00 PM whatever, like, do your thing, but also understanding. It takes time to process things and it, and processing is important and nuance is important. And understanding each moment that we are aware of a change or aware of [00:33:00] something that is shifting within us to give ourselves grace and the people around us, grace, to go through those shifts and to have process take place so that. We can come out the other end with like, okay, so I don't have all the answers yet, but I do have a sort of a sense of where I wanna go next and I'm gonna try some things and then see if the people around me agree. And then we keep going in this like very collective consensus based way and that hopefully will help the most marginalized. In the way that it's supposed to help, not by us white saviors going down and building schools in Africa. Oh my gosh. I'm saying that in quotation marks cuz I just, philanthropy and I don't have a good time together, , . But this idea of, you know, what is a way that we can all be because we're all benefit, if the most marginalized among us benefits, then it works for all of us. So yeah, that's basically the, the biggest underlying piece I think that we don't focus on enough in my. Yeah,  Sarah: yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so many [00:34:00] challenges that we need to focus on, and, and you're, you're right. I mean, we, we do have a responsibility to take and, you know, if we haven't taken it yet, it's about time. , yeah,  Alice: absolutely. I think there's something in addition to that full circle to ethical marketing, which that's the part that I think that ethical market. Sometimes people misinterpret it as, you know, how can I sell better? How can I make it so that I don't feel icky about myself? But I really wanna bring it out and zoom it out and say, it is about the bottom of the supply chain. It's about how we treat every single person within an organization or corporation. So this is about changing the way that the global crises are currently happening around environment and you know, displacement and war, and all the things that we can possibly look. All of those are impacted by how we sell and how we market. So instead of looking at it just from our individual lens of how can I still sell things, which is also [00:35:00] important and just as valid and looking at, you know, the bigger picture that has, if we all, you know, spun in that direction, then maybe there's a way we can change things.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really about taking responsibility but also giving back responsibility to the consumers because it really plays together. Right. And that's what I feel like we've taken away, , a lot. Yeah. I agree. Thank you so much. We could go on and on and on for hours. I, I'm sure. But, , yeah, please tell listeners where they can start to, you know, take ownership, be responsible, take the pledge, tell us everything,  Alice: , so we can be found on the ethical move.org. , we'd love your pledge. , it's basically a three part pledge that. Sets the sets the intention. It's an intention pledge. There are resources that we're sharing around how to change [00:36:00] tactics. And then of course there's a community which you're also part of, , which is where we actually work on this and we exchange things and we have workshops and, , events happening, , and where we all sort of get to have this collective discourse. , and. I think the best place to start is just sort of taking stop, you know, like looking at what's in front of you, taking, making a touchpoint review maybe, or looking at what the first step could be and, and following what immediately comes to mind to take on. If it's like, oh, I wanna look at my pricing strategy and really understand what my pricing means and how I can maybe make it more, beneficial or a little sort of just better for the people who buy from me, maybe in other countries, or, just even that is a huge topic and understanding that it takes time. Like if that topic takes you half a year, then good for you. Mine's I'm still going , it's taken me a year so far, so really understanding that this is a lifelong journey and it's probably gonna go on beyond our lifetime. So just keep, just  Sarah: [00:37:00] keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. , I'm so glad you didn't give us a, you know, three steps, . Nope. Here's the easy three steps. Like, yeah, I wish, I wish it was that easy,  Alice: right? No, it's not. And it's, and it's totally fine that it's not because it, we're all in the same boat together, or maybe not in the exact same boat, but we're on the same ocean like it just is. A collective effort and the idea that we need to muddle through on our own, as you know, with your community is just, yeah, it's over. It's done. We're, we're done with that. Now I feel like we're, I think we're done with that. Yeah. We can stop being individuals on our own. Scared and lonely .  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for this collaboration because it is a collaboration, right? It's a partnership and a, and I really appreciate having you on. So thank you so much. Thank.  Alice: Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Thanks.

Fellow thoughtboter Sarah Lima joins Joël to discuss an issue Sarah had when she was doing a code review recently: making HTTP requests in an ActiveRecord model. Her concern with that approach was that a class was having too many responsibilities that would break the single-responsibility principle, and that it would make the class hard to maintain. Because the ActiveRecord layer is a layer that's meant to encapsulate business roles and data, her issue was that adding another responsibility on top of it would be too much. Her solution was to extract a class that would handle the whole HTTP request process. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. SQL TRIM() (https://popsql.com/learn-sql/postgresql/how-to-trim-strings-in-postgresql) Iteration as an anti-pattern (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/iteration-as-an-anti-pattern) WET tests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/the-case-for-wet-tests) thoughtbot code review guidelines (https://github.com/thoughtbot/guides/tree/main/code-review) Side effects in tests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/simplify-tests-by-extracting-side-effects) Active Resource (https://github.com/rails/activeresource) Different strategies for 3rd party requests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/testing-third-party-interactions) Transcript: JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. And today, I'm joined by fellow thoughtboter Sarah Lima. SARAH: Happy to be here. JOËL: And together, we're here to share a little bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Sarah, what's new in your world? SARAH: Well, after a year and a half working on the same thoughtbot client, I have rolled off, and I have joined a new team. And I am learning a lot about not only a new codebase but learning to work with a new team. So that's always challenging, and this time it's not different. JOËL: What is something that you like to do when joining a new team to help smooth the onboarding process? SARAH: Well, I think especially getting to know people with one on ones. This time, I didn't do that right away because I had a bunch of time off scheduled right at the beginning of the project. But I did it right after I came back. And I'm learning a lot about my new colleagues, how they like to work, how they learn best. So, for instance, there are some people that like to learn and grow by reading blog posts, reading books, and there are other people that don't like that as much. JOËL: So when you joined the new project, you just reached out to all of these people and set up a few meetings just to get to know them. SARAH: Yeah, exactly. JOËL: That's really good. I've never done that on a project. And now that you've said it, it kind of seems obvious. Maybe I should do that moving forward to get to know new teammates. SARAH: Yeah. And I think it's easier on my project because it's a very small team. There are four of us thoughtboters, and there are just two client developers. So it was easier. JOËL: What about on the code side of things? Are there any tricks you like to do when you're first getting started in a new codebase? SARAH: Well, I think I really enjoy diving in right away, working on something small, and asking questions. I have also found it helpful in the past, especially on larger codebases, that someone that's experienced on a project gives me an overview showing me the quirks. And, of course, a good README is always a good thing to have, and during the process, always be updating the README. In this recent project, it was not different. I opened a lot of PRs to update the README. So that was good to have a PR right on your first day. JOËL: I love that. I think that's usually my goal when I start on a new project is to have a PR the first day that fixes anything in the setup script that has been broken since the last person onboarded or documentation that was wrong. SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. JOËL: It's always a strong first contribution. SARAH: Yeah. What about you, Joël? What's going on? What's new in your world? JOËL: I've been investigating flaky tests, and I ran across a wild bug this week. I had a test that would fail every now and then. And it was pulling some data from Postgres and then doing some transformations on it. And I couldn't figure out why it was failing. It was a complex query. So it was just pulling out not ActiveRecord objects but a raw array of values. At some point, I was putting a PUT statement in the code with the array of values I expected to get and the array I would actually get. And I was surprised to see that there is a field in there that is a float that was rounded to a different number of decimal places. I was like, that doesn't seem right. And so I was digging into it more, and I found out that this decimal value is from a timestamp that is in a file name for an mp4 video file name. And what is happening is that when we're querying the database, we're trying to extract the timestamp out of the file name by dropping the .mp4 file extension. And we're using the SQL TRIM function. Unfortunately, TRIM does not do whatever the original authors thought it does. It doesn't just remove that substring from the end, but instead, it will remove any of those characters, so in my case, any of dot, M, P, or 4 in any combination from the end of the string. So anytime that my timestamp ended in a four, any fours were just getting chopped off. So if it ended in 44.mp4, the 44 would also get removed, not just the .mp4, which meant that randomly whenever a timestamp happened to end in 4, my test would flake. SARAH: Wow. Do you have any idea how much time you spent debugging that? JOËL: Oh, probably took, I'd say, a day, two days. This is spread over a couple of debugging sessions. But eventually, finding that particular location for the bug probably took us a couple of days. In the end, the bug fix for this is just a couple of lines, a couple of days work, and the diff is only a few lines. But I'm sure that the discussion on the PR is going to be really interesting. There's probably going to be a description that is a lot longer than the actual diff. SARAH: Yeah, 100%. [laughs] JOËL: Have you run across any interesting PRs on your new project? SARAH: Yeah, I did. In fact, I recently reviewed a PR that had three interesting main issues that I wanted to address. And I wanted to lead the person that was working on it to a slightly better solution. So the three issues I saw were that the tests that were added were very DRY, so that was making everything a bit difficult to understand. The second one was that I saw one of the ActiveRecord classes was making HTTP requests, and that didn't sound like a good idea to me. JOËL: That is unusual. SARAH: Yes. The third one was that there were a lot of collections being built iteratively where another innumerable method would be a better fit, such as map instead of an each call. JOËL: Oh, this is a classic situation where you're just using each to go through and transform something, and you've got some sort of external array that you're mutating as part of the each. SARAH: Yes. JOËL: There's a great thought article, I believe, by Joe Ferris on Iteration as an Anti-pattern. SARAH: I think it's by Mike Burns. And I have referred to that article. In fact, I had very good articles for two of these three problems. I referred to a bunch of articles about WET tests as opposed to DRY tests, like how striving for tests that are DRY is not a good idea as opposed to telling a whole story in your tests. And I referred to that other article how iteratively building a collection can be an anti-pattern by Mike Burns. But the second issue about HTTP requests I didn't have anything to refer to. Maybe we should write one. JOËL: This reminds me that in the thoughtbot Slack, we have a custom emoji for you should write a blog post about that. And this would probably be a good time to use it. SARAH: Yes. So, Joël, how do you typically handle a PR that is maybe too long, and you have a lot of concerns about it? And how do you handle delivering that feedback? JOËL: Oh, that is a challenge. I've definitely done it poorly in the past. And I think the wrong way to go about that situation is to go thoroughly through the PR and leave 50, 60 comments. That is overwhelming for the other person. And they're going to have a really bad day when they see 50 comments come through. And there's so much that they can't really address the main things you were talking about anyway. So what I generally try to do, and it's kind of nice now that GitHub doesn't immediately publish your comments, is if I realize...like I start putting some more detailed comments, and then I realize, oh, there's going to be a lot, zoom out a little bit, and try to find are there some higher level trends that I can talk about? And maybe even just summarize in a larger comment at the bottom and say, "Hey, I see some larger structural issues," or "This PR is leaning very heavily on a technique that I think is maybe not the best use here. Maybe we should discuss that," instead of digging into maybe the actual implementation details of the code. SARAH: Yeah, funny, you should mention that. I have recently also started doing that, using the summary version of GitHub reviews. And I used to just go file by file and leaving comments right away. And I'm thinking that this is not a good idea, especially when the PR is long. So I think another thing I would do is also call the person to pair and ask questions and understand where the person is coming from and also explain what are your concerns and how you both can get to a better place with that PR. JOËL: That's really important. You have to remember there's another person on the other end of this. I love the idea of reaching out to them directly. Especially if there's a larger conversation to be had around approach or implementation, it's often easier to resolve those directly rather than back and forth in GitHub comments. So you mentioned situations where the PR is really long. Have you ever had to push back on that in some way? SARAH: Yes. Especially when I saw, whoa, that's going to be difficult to understand, that's going to be difficult to review. And I have reached out to the person to say, "Hey, what about we split that PR in two?" Of course thinking about splitting the PR in a way that makes sense, in a way that still delivers our users' value as soon as possible. JOËL: I've been in situations like that where it's a really long PR, and the person has already invested a lot of work into it. And maybe it's even gone through a round of reviews. It feels almost too late to ask them to split up the work. But then I've actually regretted not doing that because there's so much complexity going on that then it doesn't work, or there are some bugs in it. We struggle to ship this, or it might just have to go through so many rounds of review and re-review and re-review. And because the PR is so long, it's a huge commitment for me to re-review it every time. So there are situations I've been in where I wish that before even looking at the code at all, I was like, this is too long. We need to either slim down the story of what's being done. Because sometimes that's what happens is that the ticket is not well-defined, and someone goes in and just sort of keeps adding more code. And it becomes a bit of a big ball of mud. So, either helping to refine the ticket first or splitting the PR rather than actually looking at the code. SARAH: Yeah, and pairing often can also help with that. So especially as consultants, our clients may ask us to work on different projects, and you work alone. And you may have tight deadlines, but I think it's always helpful to find time anyway to help your colleagues as well. JOËL: I like that. I think there's a lot of value in the work that we do, where we collaborate with others in addition to whatever we do solo. So, oftentimes, it's great to pair with people at a client where possible to become involved in the code review process to even get involved in maybe some of the more broader system design conversations, sprint planning. All of those things are really good to jump into more than just getting siloed into working on just a solo feature. SARAH: Yes, 100%. MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers that can actually help cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? It has all of the information that web developers need to monitor their application - including error management, performance insights, and deploy tracking! 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You literally have nothing to lose. Head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! JOËL: So one of the things you mentioned that stood out for you when you were doing some code review recently was making HTTP requests in an ActiveRecord model. Why is that something that sort of caught your eyes, maybe an area to push back on in a particular design? SARAH: That's a good question. My concern with that approach was that our class was having too many responsibilities that would break the SRP principle, the single-responsibility principle, and that would make our class hard to maintain. So the ActiveRecord layer is a layer that's meant to encapsulate business roles and data. So I was worried that adding another responsibility on top of it would be too much. So my idea was that we would extract a class that would handle the whole HTTP request process. JOËL: Yeah, I feel like my instincts typically when I've done third-party integrations is that the ActiveRecord class should not know about the external internet world. It knows about the database. It knows about some of its core model functionality but that knowing about the internet world is somebody else's responsibility and that, ideally, the direction of dependency should flow the other way. So maybe the class that makes an external request knows about the ActiveRecord object if it needs to let's say, instantiate an instance of that model using data from an external request. Or maybe it's even some third-party thing; maybe it's their controller that knows how to make or that will ask another object to make a request to some API and might also make a request to the model and ask it for some database data and then combine those two together. But that the ActiveRecord object only knows about that database area of responsibility and doesn't know that other things are also happening in the system. SARAH: Absolutely. And I was also thinking that that class would have a difficult test to write. So a good idea is to separate our code that is side-effectful into their own classes, and that makes our tests so much easier. JOËL: I actually wrote an article on the topic where one of my realizations at some point was that a lot of the pain points in code are what functional programmers would call side effects, so things like HTTP requests. And these are often things where we need to stub or do other things. And so isolating them as much as possible often simplifies our tests. SARAH: Yeah, certainly. And I refer to that article every time I have the chance. JOËL: Have you encountered the general concept of layered architectures, or hexagonal architectures, or things like that in the world of Rails or maybe elsewhere? SARAH: Not hexagonal architecture. I have heard about it, but I haven't dived into it yet. Can you give us an overview? JOËL: So I've also not worked with an actual hexagonal architecture. But the general idea, I guess, of layered architectures is that you build your code in a variety of layers, and different layers don't have access to or don't know about the ones...and I forget in this model if it's above or below, let's say it's below. So the inner layers don't know about the outer layers, but the outer layers can know about anything below them. And so if the core of your app is the database, your database is most definitely not knowing about anything outside of just its data. And your ActiveRecord models that sit on top of that know about the database, but they don't know if they're being fronted by a web application, or a command line, or anything else. And then, above that, you might have more of a business process layer that knows about the database. It might know about how to make some external requests, but it doesn't know about anything above that. And then, maybe at the final layer, you've got an application layer that handles things like controllers and interactions with users of the site. The core idea is that you split it into layers, and the higher-up layers know about everything below them, but no layer knows about what's above it. I feel like we're loosely applying that to the situation here with ActiveRecord in that it feels like the ActiveRecord layer if you will, shouldn't really know about third-party API requests. SARAH: So, one exception to that is the ActiveResource approach that connects our business objects to REST services. So if you have an external website and you want to connect it via HTTP, you can do it using Rails ActiveResource. JOËL: That is interesting because it functions like an ActiveRecord object, but instead of being backed by the database, it's backed by some kind of API. I almost wonder if...let's refactor our mental model here. And instead of saying that HTTP belongs in a separate layer that's higher up, maybe, in this case, it's almost like a sibling layer. So your ActiveRecord models know about the database, and they make database requests in ActiveResource, or I think there are some gems that provide similar behavior. It might be backed by a particular API, but neither of them should know about the other. So maybe an ActiveResource model should not be making database requests. SARAH: Yes, I like that line of thought. JOËL: I guess the question then becomes, what about interactions between the two where you want to, I don't know, have some kind of association? You know, I don't think I've ever used ActiveResource on a project. SARAH: I did once when trying to work with something close to microservice architecture. So we had a monolith, and we built a small service that was also in Rails, and we needed to consume the data that was stored in the monolith. JOËL: And did you like that approach? SARAH: Yeah. I think in that specific scenario, it was very productive. And I enjoyed a lot the API that Rails provided me via ActiveResources. JOËL: Did you ever have to mix ActiveResource models and ActiveRecord models? SARAH: No, I didn't; thankfully, not. I have never thought about that. JOËL: So maybe in most applications, those two will just sort of naturally fall into maybe separate parts of the app, and they don't need to interact that much. SARAH: Yeah, I think that will be the case. So mixing two of those subjects we're talking about here, that's testing and HTTP requests; we've been having a discussion in our project about the usage of VCR. That's a gem that records your HTTP requests interactions and replays them during tests. We've been discussing if using it is a good idea or not because we've been having issues with cassettes, that's one of VCR's concepts when these cassettes are not valid anymore. So do you have any thoughts on the subject? Maybe that will make a whole episode. JOËL: We could definitely do a whole episode, I think, on testing third-party APIs. VCR is one of multiple different strategies that can be used to not make actual real network requests in your tests which brings some stability. There are also some downsides to it. I have found, in general, that over time, cassettes become brittle. So the idea of VCR is really cool. In practice, I think I've found that a few hand-rolled Webmock stubs usually do the job better for my needs. SARAH: Yeah, I'll be interested in hearing that episode because, at least in my project, we have a lot of HTTP requests to external services, and they return a lot of information. I'm wondering if just dealing with that with Webmock would be too much work. JOËL: One of the really useful things about VCR is that you can just make your request from anywhere, and it will just completely handle it. In some ways, though, I think it maybe hides some of that test pain that we were talking about earlier and allows you to sort of put HTTP in a lot of places that maybe you don't want it to. And by allowing yourself to feel a little bit of that test pain, you can more easily notice the places where maybe an object should not be making a request. Or the actual HTTP logic can be moved to a concentrated place where all the HTTP is done together. And then only that object will need unit tests that actually need to mock the network, and most of your objects are fine. Where it gets interesting is more for things like integration tests, where now you're doing a lot of interactions, and you might have quite a few background requests that need to be made. SARAH: I'm looking forward to the whole episode on this subject because I feel there's so much to talk about. JOËL: There really is. I have a blog post that sort of summarizes a few different common categories of approaches to testing third-party requests, which might be different depending on whether you're doing a unit test or an integration test. But I grouped common solutions into four different categories. We'll make sure to link that in the show notes. So we've been talking a lot about testing. I'm curious when you review PR, do you start with the tests, maybe read through the tests first, and then the implementation? SARAH: That's a good question. I have never thought about starting with tests. I think I'm going to give that a try anytime. But I just start reviewing them like by the first file that comes up. [laughs] JOËL: I'm the same. I normally just do them in order. I have occasionally tried to do a test first, and that is sometimes interesting. Sometimes you read the test and, especially when you don't know what the implementation is going to be, you're like, why is this in the test? And then you jump to the implementation like, oh, that's what's going on. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us on this whirlwind tour of code review, design of objects, and interacting with HTTP and testing. SARAH: My pleasure. JOËL: Where can people find you online if they would like to follow your work? SARAH: I'm on Twitter @sarahlima_rb. JOËL: We'll make sure to link that in the show notes. And with that, let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. If you have any feedback, you can reach us at @_bikeshed, or reach me at @joelquen on Twitter, or at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. Thank you so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. Byeeeeeee!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.