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DoorGrow has been helping property management business owners transform and grow their businesses for over a decade… what's changed? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explore some of the things DoorGrow has been working on in the last 5 years to innovate the property management industry. You'll Learn [01:24] Why DoorGrow Continues to Innovate [06:94] Helping Property Managers Avoid Common Mistakes [13:23] Changes and Improvements to the DoorGrow Mastermind [21:52] Innovative New Sales Strategies Quotables “A lot of people think, ‘I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on.' And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it.” “If you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves.” “It's like when you go to a buffet, you're not going to eat everything at the buffet… You only want to eat the things that you want right now.” “You are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. [00:00:08] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improved pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind for the industry with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:00:59] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:01:09] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:01:13] Jason: We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:24] Jason: Alright, so today, what are we talking about, Sarah?  [00:01:28] Jason: We're talking about what's new.  [00:01:30] Jason: So we've helped a lot of clients in the past, and if we've helped you three, five, maybe 10 years ago, there's been a lot that's changed at DoorGrow because we innovate and make changes pretty quickly, right? [00:01:44] Jason: And we've got systems for innovation in our business. And so, I think this is why we have the most comprehensive program in the industry and why nobody else can keep up with our pace and our level of creating and innovating and adding new stuff. And so a lot of you maybe have listened to this podcast a bit, maybe a while, maybe you're past clients. Maybe you've never worked with DoorGrow, but I'm going to talk about some of the stuff we've implemented since somebody was maybe a client in our older programs, like our seed program, or maybe did some initial marketing stuff with us back in the day. And so we're going to chat a little bit about what's new since then. [00:02:24] Jason: And so if you are a past client, this will be a great episode for you to catch up on what is new at DoorGrow. And if you'd like us to go deeper, I have a 37 minute video I recorded with slides on this subject going into a little bit more detail, but we're going to skim through some of this and help you understand there's a lot of innovation. [00:02:44] Jason: So if you had some connection with DoorGrow in the past, since then, we have become the world leaders at growing and scaling property management companies. And especially in the long term residential space. We've become the world leaders of property management branding. Like I said in the intro, we've rebranded over 300 companies. [00:03:04] Jason: We have launched hundreds of websites, more than we've done rebrands. And so hundreds and hundreds of websites. And we're still the leader in building responsive mobile friendly WordPress sites for property managers, which is the world's leading content management system. And if you're past client, you might be due for a website refresh. [00:03:24] Jason: We have over 70 different designs you can choose from, and they are clean designs, they're set up so that these sites, we call them seed sites, they're optimized for conversions, they're optimized to build trust. And so if it's, if you have an old website from us, you might be due for a refresh and we can certainly help you with that. [00:03:46] Jason: And past clients, we'll give you a discounted rate. So we're really great at doing websites for those that aren't a past client. And so, reach out, we can help you with that. And we include websites for free in some of our programs. You still have to pay like the support costs monthly, but the design piece, which normally is thousands of dollars to get a site built, we cover and take care of that. [00:04:09] Jason: That's included in our mastermind program. Related to that, we've also launched the world's leading mastermind for long-term residential property managers called The DoorGrow Mastermind. So, do you want to talk about this one?  [00:04:22] Sarah: Sure. I guess. Okay. All right. So one of the things that we had launched, what, like two years ago now maybe? [00:04:29] Sarah: Yeah. Is what we call the DoorGrow code. So what we've done is we've just seen over the many years and over Jason talking with thousands of property managers. He's just amassed a whole bunch of data. And after that happens, then you start to kind of see some patterns. So. What we did is we created this whole map that lays out stage by stage and step by step. [00:04:56] Sarah: The various different ,I'm going to call them stages, of a property management business. So all the way from, "I'm brand new, I have no doors yet, not quite sure I really want to get started, but I, you know, I don't actually have any clients yet" to, "well, now I have my first client and then I'm growing up to, you know, 50, a hundred, 200, 300, 400 doors, all the way up to a thousand plus. So we've created this whole roadmap, and then if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, we also have created some corresponding belt levels. So we kind of like a martial arts system, we've created different color coded built levels that corresponds to both your door count and your income because both things are important. [00:05:43] Sarah: And what are the things that you need to do at each different stage in order to progress to the next level in your business? Meaning you are making more revenue, you're adding more doors, and hopefully you're stepping back a bit from the things that you're not loving in the business.  [00:06:02] Jason: Yeah, and we call that the DoorGrow code, like we've cracked the code on growth and this is based on talking to thousands of property managers. [00:06:09] Jason: We started to notice a pattern. So if you'd like a copy of the DoorGrow code and see where you're at and stuck, reach out to us. We'd be happy to send you a copy. Just shoot us a DM on any social platform. Say, Hey. Just send us the word code and we'll, we can send you information about the DoorGrow code and that'll help you get some clarity on where you're at. [00:06:28] Jason: So that's been a game changer. We used to have this old program called the Seed Program, where we would kind of clean up their business and get it ready for growth. And it used to be a six month program. Some clients would take a year to do it. We've replaced that with a 90 day Rapid Revamp program, and so our Rapid Revamp program is even faster and this is where usually I use a diagram of a hose and there's like a faucet to turn on the hose. And that faucet Or spigot, it usually says lead generation. A lot of people think, "I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on." And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it, and so we've identified six major leaks, and so as part of this Rapid Revamp. [00:07:09] Jason: We spend like three months with clients, usually our newer clients that come on board, we do this first. This is like sharpening the ax before we go try to chop down trees, you know, try to do the work to grow the business, and we're optimizing it for growth and we're shoring up those six major leaks. [00:07:24] Jason: And the big leaks are branding, reviews, website, pricing, trust, and sales, your pitch. So we call it positioning, perception, presence, pricing, purpose, and pitch. And if we can get those things really well dialed in, we find that companies without even changing their lead gen sources, can double the amount of deals that they're getting on right now. [00:07:43] Jason: So if you feel like it's been hard and you can't see why, these are usually six major blind spots. And this is why it's been so hard. If we can get this stuff dialed in, even without changing any of the lead sources, however you're getting business right now, you could potentially double the amount of business you're getting on just by getting these leaks shored up. [00:08:02] Jason: And do you want to talk about pricing?  [00:08:04] Sarah: Okay. Pricing is actually one of the things that we cover now in the Rapid Revamp. And what we've noticed is even companies that grow to a considerable door count, most of the times their pricing is still just not great. I think we have yet to see a business that their pricing is already optimized, so a lot of times, they're leaving money on the table, which is so awful. Because you're working so hard for your money. Yeah. And you're just not making enough of it. And there's some statistics and data from NARPM. If you ever look at the NARPM data and you look at what like the average property manager's profit margin is, it's pretty abysmal. Yeah. And this is one of the reasons why. [00:08:48] Sarah: It's not the like the only reason, but it's one of the big ones. It's one of the factors. Pricing. So what we've figured out is, hey, a lot of property managers, they just kind of go with the flow. They do what the competition in their market is doing. You know, they just kind of, sometimes they wing it and they go, I think this is good. [00:09:07] Sarah: And they put something together. And when we come in and take a look at it, we can find thousands of dollars more per year. So like Anthony O'Reilly Brookes just said a couple weeks ago on the pricing, he's like, oh, if I just do this one change, I don't even have to do all of these changes. He is like, if I just do this one change, then I can make myself an extra $26,000 a year. [00:09:28] Jason: Yeah. This is one of our clients. It was great. So yeah, so we had an old training. We were the first to roll out kind of the three tier sort of pricing model to bring this to the industry. The basic idea was based around the Goldilocks principle and how it's easier to sell if you have three different types of pricing based on three types of buyers. Pricing secrets, we've rolled out 2.0. [00:09:51] Jason: So some of our past clients, you've gone through our original pricing secrets. You've have maybe a three tier model or maybe at least three plans sort of. Some of you maybe have lease only as one of them, which we don't recommend anymore. But now we've got this three tier hybrid pricing model and I got some of the idea from Scott Brady, really brilliant property manager. [00:10:14] Jason: He was using a hybrid model for pricing out associations. I then put my own spin on it based on what I know about pricing psychology. And I believe this is the most ethical and easiest to sell model. And it allows you to be unique and sell against all your competitors and to kind of poison the well against flat fee companies or percentage based companies. [00:10:36] Jason: And so it gives you competitive advantage and it helps you close more deals more easily at higher price points. So we've got that. The next thing we've made some big advancements into sales. So some of you went through my old Sales secrets training and and this was old school sales, like it was based on NLP neurolinguistic programming. [00:10:57] Jason: It was based on different formulas of communication that some would maybe calm, manipulative, but the idea, and I would present at the beginning, like, don't be evil. You know, like, these are powerful techniques. Well, a lot of the old school sort of sales tactics of high pressure closing and a lot of training you get from most salespeople and people that are known for sales really isn't working in the last three to five years. [00:11:23] Jason: And so there's kind of this new model of selling that needs to be done. And because we're in this post trust era, like everybody's been kind of exposed and woken up a little bit that everything's kind of fake. The news is fake. The pandemic's fake. Voting's fake. Like, like nobody knows who to trust or what to trust because we realize we've just been gaslighted and lied to by everything. Especially the government and powers that are over us. And so nobody trusts anything anymore. And so there's a new model of selling that allows you to create trust that we've learned and rolled out, and we get into some cool tactics like the three dominoes to creating the ultimate pitch. [00:12:05] Jason: I have a model of four phase selling, which is a simple framework for understanding four simple phrases to take people through when having a conversation. And then our Golden Bridge formula, which is even if you learn nothing else, is the ultimate sales hack to just creating authentic trust and connection with somebody, which is the crux of sales. [00:12:25] Jason: You know? And so this is high trust selling, figuring out your personal golden bridge I've used for years in my own sales and in getting on clients, and it's why people trust me so much. And so we'll help you figure out your own. And then we get into this whole new model of selling, which has multiple phases that helps people get their own clarity. [00:12:44] Jason: And what I've realized is people don't understand their problems and what they need, and until you ask them the right questions, and so if you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves. You don't have to push, be pushy In sales, this is more about being empathetic, curious, asking questions, and it feels very good to be sold to in this way, if you could even call it selling. It's really coaching. And so I'm teaching you how to do that as well in this training. And then we've also added recently offer documents, sales trackers, like some really cool stuff that we use at DoorGrow to close deals and that are helping our clients increase their close rates significantly. [00:13:23] Jason: So we made a lot of improvements to our coaching program. Maybe you could talk about some of those things.  [00:13:30] Sarah: Yeah. So there... man, I feel like since I stepped into DoorGrow, we changed everything, so. [00:13:37] Jason: We did.  [00:13:38] Sarah: Which is great because it's like there's a lot of things that we wanted to improve, and there were a lot of things that we wanted to add. So I think one of the best things for me anyway, is I really love the Jumpstart events. So if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind as a newer client, then part of your launch package is going to be an in-person deep dive into your business with Jason and myself, you spend the whole day together with a small group of property managers. [00:14:08] Sarah: We keep it small because I cannot do a deep dive with like 10 people or 20 people. So we do a very small group. Yeah, and we really get into the weeds. We get into the nitty gritty. You walk away with a very clear action plan. You know exactly what to be doing, and you just get so much clarity and connection with other property managers that are attending that event, which is really great because after the event, those people, they stick together for a while, you know? [00:14:36] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:14:36] Jason: Create some nice connections. We rolled out the jumpstart sessions because we started to notice a pattern that when clients would meet us in person or come to DoorGrow Live or conference or anything in person, they would suddenly realize psychologically we were real people. There's just something psychologically about video Zoom calls video trainings in DoorGrow Academy. [00:15:00] Jason: That's not real to our brain. And so I call it the real bubble. And we've realized if we can pop that real bubble from the beginning, clients' perception of and recognizing that we're real people, then that translates into the things that we teach are real. And the things and the results clients are getting are real. [00:15:18] Jason: And so they start to get way better results. And so we want to give people that experience from the beginning, and we've got a much better outcome from all of our clients by getting them to do these in-person things towards the beginning of them joining DoorGrow's Mastermind and they're getting way better results. [00:15:36] Jason: They recognize that this is all real stuff and so they absorb the content in all the information in a completely different way, which is really powerful, so. [00:15:45] Sarah: And I would also say in addition to that too, though, if you had worked with us prior to what, four years ago? I would say probably four is the right answer. [00:15:56] Sarah: If you worked with us anytime before that, we recognized onboarding was very hectic and it was, oh man, it's really overwhelming. Everybody was like, "oh my God, there's so much information and I don't know what to do," and then they try to take it all in and they're overwhelmed and they're focusing on the wrong things. [00:16:13] Sarah: And then they have a bunch of questions and they're trying to like, jump on the calls to get their questions answered. So we did a few things. And the best thing that we have rolled out is. We have a really solid, streamlined onboarding process now.  [00:16:29] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:29] Sarah: So we take you through a very proven like we have a whole course on DoorGrow Academy on onboarding to make sure that you get into all of the tools. You have access to everything. You know how to use it. Because just because you have it, doesn't mean you know how to use it. Yeah. And then that you're connected with our team. Because there are still some times that people are like, "oh, I didn't even know I could talk to Madi. Oh, I didn't know I could talk to Giselle." Or like, "oh, I didn't realize I could do that." Yeah, you absolutely can. We have a whole team to support you. So we make sure that you're connected with the right tools. We make sure you're connected with the team. You get on like a couple of 15 minute coaching calls with our like onboarding specialist right at the beginning just to make sure, like we're going to walk you through everything. We're going to check everything, we're going to explain everything to you, make sure you're on telegram, make sure you're connected to our entire team. And then they get a brand new thing that we had rolled out in addition that we added to onboarding is our client workbooks. [00:17:26] Sarah: So one of the things that everybody says is, "oh my God, it's like drinking out of a fire hose." I hear this almost from every client.  [00:17:33] Jason: Yeah. That analogy comes up all the time. It's like drinking out of a fire hose. Like they say it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh my God, there's so much, there's so much available. [00:17:41] Jason: Yes, there is. So we help them get focused.  [00:17:43] Sarah: And that's great. But it's like when you go to a buffet you're not going to eat everything at the buffet.  [00:17:48] Jason: No.  [00:17:49] Sarah: You only want to eat the things that you want right now. Yeah. And maybe you're like, oh, I'm saving room for dessert later. I know. Like, I'm going to pace myself because I want dessert later for sure. And that's great because you're not ready for dessert now. So it's not that you skip it, it's just that you don't need it right now. So we have a much better system of figuring out what do you need right now. So it's a lot more personalized, it's a lot more customized and then you're able to go through a proven roadmap that's for your business and for your stage. And a lot of that lives in our client workbooks. And that way there's like one place to refer to, you know your belt level requirements. You know your Rapid Revamp to do items. You know what the homework is that you're supposed to be doing. Your sales tracker lives in there and all of your action items and to do items, they're all in there, so you know exactly what to be doing and there's one document to refer to that makes it really easy. [00:18:45] Jason: And when you talk to a coach, we'll map out exactly what you know, we want to figure out your goals, and then we map out tactical items for you to check off and to work on specific to you. And so, even though we've got some different, you know, paths and formulas and classes, we always tailor this to our clients. [00:19:02] Jason: And the client workbook really helps that communication. It literally gets us on the same page, right? Yeah. Together. So, we've added client Success manager, my daughter Madi, who manages all her social media, does all our video editing. She is now also our client success manager, and she's amazing at that. [00:19:17] Jason: So we've had a couple different client success managers over the years and that's really helped improve the connection clients have, the clarity they have, and we also have giselle on our team who can find anything for clients and help them find things.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Giselle is like ai, but she's not. [00:19:34] Jason: Right. Yeah.  [00:19:36] Sarah: She's the best human AI I've ever seen.  [00:19:40] Jason: Yeah. So, and so we've got really good support systems for our clients. We also now leverage Telegram Messenger. We used to use Voxer. Some of my clients in the past, maybe remember Voxer. So I think we've upgraded by using Telegram Messenger for sure. [00:19:54] Jason: And it's a lot more reliable. And so we coach clients directly through it. Walkie-talkie style. They can answer questions anytime. So that's been really effective.  [00:20:01] Sarah: And I mean, that's super powerful too because, yeah, this is the one thing that I like, especially in the Rapid Revamp. I harp on this a lot. [00:20:08] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. Yeah. So you can message Jason, you can message me, you can message our whole client success team, including Madi. You can message us any time at all. [00:20:25] Sarah: It doesn't mean we're going to get back to you immediately. Sure. But we get back to you pretty darn quickly. Yeah. And out of all the communication channels, those are the ones that we check the most. So like Jason will never check his email. So if you ever email Jason, it's a black hole, don't do it. [00:20:41] Jason: Someone else will read it. Eventually  [00:20:42] Sarah: But Telegram, he checks Telegram a lot. And I check Telegram. I mean, I message people sometimes back at midnight, like if they send me a message at 11 and I'm still awake at midnight, I'm like, okay. I'm like messaging you in bed. I have no problem doing that. [00:20:55] Sarah: But you're connected very easily and very quickly to a coach who can rapidly answer questions. And it's not, you know, it's not like this cumbersome thing where you're like, "oh, I have to get on a call and figure out a time that works for me." Right? Like it works for you all the time because you just send a message. [00:21:12] Jason: Yeah. So that's been real effective. We've got three different weekly group coaching calls. We've got a Rapid Revamp class where we're optimizing the product of the business. And getting the business dialed up and ready for growth. Then we've got our Growth Accelerator class that we do. So the Rapid Revamp's on Tuesdays. Growth Accelerator is on Wednesdays, and this is where we focus on just adding doors. [00:21:34] Jason: We work with BDMs, we work with salespeople, we work with business owners to figure out how to grow and working on different growth engines. And then we have our Friday class, which is our operations class where we get into creating scalable operations so that you can handle high paced growth without the business falling apart. [00:21:52] Jason: So, we've also added in our Growth Accelerator, we've added a bunch of different growth engines. These are different sort of vehicles or engines you can build in your business that feed you business organically without having to pay for marketing or advertising. And it's actually more effective than any cold lead advertising we've seen to date. [00:22:12] Jason: We just brought on a client with 6,000 doors that was spending 30 grand a month. Trying to do internet marketing and digital marketing to grow their business, and they reached out to us for help. And so we're giving them a better strategy of leveraging business development managers in each market doing organic outreach, and they're going to grow way faster. [00:22:29] Jason: And it's going to cost them way less money. Way less. Right.  [00:22:32] Sarah: And for those of you that are doing paid marketing, do you think you can outspend someone who's spending $30,000 a month?  [00:22:38] Jason: Right. And the reality is there's very little search volume of people looking for property management on the internet, and that's what all of the companies are competing in that red bloody water. And there's tons of blue ocean of people. 60% are self-managing. There's no scarcity. And so we help you get these different growth engines dialed in and we've got great tactics like you know, product research interviews, realtor intros, which is 10 times more effective than realtor referrals, which a lot of you try and it doesn't work super well. [00:23:05] Jason: We've got you know, some clever tactics of going direct to investors. We also launched this ROI calculator that's pretty brilliant. That goes along with our realtor intro strategy. We've got the neighbor strategy. Which helps you get business from neighboring property management companies, which is really brilliant. [00:23:23] Jason: We've got warm review outreach, which will help you get better reviews, help you increase the lifetime value of your tenants and owners, and help you get more referrals from your existing clients. And so that can be real effective. Any one of these has helped our clients at a hundred to 200 doors a year organically, and you can install as many of these as you want. [00:23:42] Jason: We've got outbound partner prospecting where you can go after lenders, insurance agents, attorneys, vendors, and another example is groups like one to many sales and how to, instead of walking away from a group interaction where you hope maybe you'll get a lead or a referral or something, you walk away with scheduled, booked calls and can make money. [00:24:04] Jason: So, cool. So those are some of our growth engines. Let's talk about, this is new.  [00:24:09] Sarah: I love talking about DoorGrow Hiring. We could do a whole podcast episode on just that alone. Sure. And this is not specific just to property management businesses, this is businesses in general. Yeah. They. Really struggle with hiring. [00:24:22] Sarah: It's hard. It is so challenging and what usually happens is you wait until you're in pain and then you hurry up to hire and then your situation gets worse than it was before. And then, now you've got, you know, some scar tissue and now you're like, oh, I don't think I want to hire. Or like, ah, there's no good people out there. [00:24:44] Sarah: Like, I've been burned before. And it's because people approach everything pretty much the wrong way. Yeah. So we built this into entire system that's called DoorGrow Hiring. And we'll take people through it to make sure that you've got everything in line that you need ahead of time. So that you can actually be prepared to find the right person. We also give you proven processes to help you find the right people. Including things like your R Docs, which is just a fancy word for job description, your company culture. We build out your application, we put it on your website. We give you like the job postings. We give you an interview guide. [00:25:20] Sarah: I literally give you the words to use in an interview, these are the questions you're going to ask. This is the order you're going to ask them in, and these are the words you're going to say, and then that is it. We take you like step by step. So we created this whole system in order to help people find really great team members instead of playing Russian roulette with hiring, which is really dangerous. [00:25:45] Jason: Yeah. So, and the whole crux of it is focused on the three fits, which is finding the right culture fit, skill fit, and personality fit for the role. You cannot create those in people, you have to find them. And finding all three can be challenging and our whole hiring system's built around that. So, just three more things real quick. [00:26:03] Jason: One, we've focused on the five levels of exit. So a lot of property managers can't figure out how to exit the frontline work of the business, so they end up then selling the business because they're miserable in it. So we help you figure out how to get to there's five levels. We help you figure out how to get to somewhere in the middle where you're happiest and you're out of that frontline work without going all the way to exit five and selling the business and having a lack of purpose or you know, not having the business anymore and then trying to start something new and getting to the same level of problem in the video game and you keep losing against the same boss and whatever. So we help you figure out how to beat that boss in the video game. We also launched DoorGrow OS, which is a really robust planning system. [00:26:45] Jason: We have found some fundamental flaws in other planning systems, which are a step up. Just having one like EOS, Traction, Rocket Fuel, some of this kind of stuff. We've built something we believe is innovative and far better after working with some of the most brilliant operations people. And, probably in the world. [00:27:01] Jason: And so this is DoorGrow OS and this is our secret sauce at DoorGrow. And so we're helping people roll out and implement a planning cadence and system and get operators in place that can run this for you, the visionary entrepreneurs. So that your business runs smoothly and you can handle high-paced growth and have goals and get your team focused on the strategic side of the business rather than just being micromanaged through tactical work and task management. [00:27:29] Jason: And then this is the last item you want to talk about this one? [00:27:33] Sarah: Well, we've got our DoorGrow Live conference coming up, so I think you did the first one in like 2018. Then we took a break and then we brought them back. So yeah. We run our DoorGrow Live conference once a year, this is our big event, we open it up to clients, past clients, people who have never even worked with us. People who are in and around the property management industry, including real estate. Because if you're in real estate, you should seriously consider getting into property management, or at least knowing a property manager. And if you need to know a great property manager, there's going to be a lot of them in the room. [00:28:06] Sarah: So, the DoorGrow Live, it's a really powerful event. We bring in some fantastic speakers. It's always very motivational and very tactical, so no matter what it is that you're looking for from the event, you will find it there. And it's a great place to connect and meet people who are doing the same thing that you are doing. [00:28:28] Sarah: Because that is just such a powerful tool to be able to have a network of people that you can rely on and that understand you and understand what exactly you're trying to do and what you're going through.  [00:28:40] Jason: Yeah, and we have some amazing vendors that sponsor the event. One of them told me this is the only event that they now do of all the property management events, because it's their favorite. It's the best one. Even though it's small compared to many. They love this one and they get so much value out of learning and being at it as an entrepreneur. And so that says a lot. And so, these are different property managers. [00:29:03] Jason: These are growth-minded people that invest in their businesses. These are not the people that are just trying to have a shitty vacation and escape and go to a bar. These are people that are focused on growth. And so if you want to be around the best in the industry DoorGrow Live is the place to be around the best, and you are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to. [00:29:23] Jason: You know, birds of a feather flock together. So if you're growth minded, you want to be at this event. So, and by the time this airs, for a lot of you, if you're listening to this on Spotify or somewhere else. You may have already missed this year, so, but get your tickets and we've got some cool bonuses that we're giving to people if they attend. [00:29:40] Jason: So. Cool. That's it for today. If you have felt stuck or stagnant or want to take your property management business the next level, reach out to us at DoorGrow.com. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners. We reject 70% of applicants doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:30:02] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone, so let's grow together. Bye everyone.

If you were managing a football team and you had someone with the skills to be a star quarterback, would you have them be a kicker?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the pitfalls of having dual roles in your property management business. You'll Learn [01:26] How to Guarantee Your Team Will Fail [06:19] Why Dual Roles Often Do Not Work [09:17] Set Your Team Members Up for Success Quotables “It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases.”  ”Most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that.” “We make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do.” “You probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:00:02] Jason: yes.  [00:00:03] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:00:03] Jason: super sharp  [00:00:04] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:00:08] Jason: right?  [00:00:09] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:00:12] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 property management businesses, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:01:02] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:12] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:26] Jason: Sarah, what are we talking about today?  [00:01:29] Sarah: We are going to talk about how you can almost guarantee that your team will fail.  [00:01:34] Jason: Guaranteed failure. And the method to do this- yes- we call dual role...  [00:01:40] Sarah: oh.  [00:01:41] Jason: Team members...  [00:01:41] Sarah: yes.  [00:01:42] Jason: Right? So and so, what's the scenario? What do we mean by dual role? And it's pretty common. [00:01:48] Sarah: I see it quite a bit.  [00:01:50] Sarah: Yeah. Do you see it a lot?  [00:01:51] Jason: Yeah. I mean, do you want me to explain the idea or you want to explain what you see?  [00:01:55] Jason: No, I just want to know if you see it a lot.  [00:01:56] Jason: Yeah. I see a lot of people make this mistake when hiring. I don't see it work  [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, no.  [00:02:02] Jason: And I see people try to do it, but I see a lot of failure. [00:02:06] Jason: I've seen companies with, I talked to one the other day with 6,000 doors, which was kind of trying to do a dual role. And I've seen lots of startups try to do more than just two roles. They're trying to get somebody that's like them. They're like, I just need to find the clone. I call that the clone myth, like that's the earliest stage of hiring, the biggest mistake. [00:02:26] Jason: They're like, I just need somebody that can do 10 roles, 10 things. Someone just like me as an entrepreneur that would love to work for me, unlike an entrepreneur. Right. So how about you? You've helped a lot of our clients with hiring. So what what comes up?  [00:02:41] Sarah: So usually, and let's just backtrack and say, alright, by dual role. [00:02:47] Sarah: Yeah. What we mean is, Hey, I need to hire someone and they're going to do this and that. So they're going to do, you know, sales and manage the doors. They're going to do the operations and like help me with the team and stuff and then also they're going to be a property manager or a maintenance coordinator or whatever. [00:03:08] Sarah: Yeah. So take two roles that are not the same thing and mash them together, and this is what we mean by dual role. And this situation gets aggravated significantly if those two different roles are also two different personality types.  [00:03:26] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:26] Sarah: So if you have someone who's going to do operations and function as an assistant. [00:03:32] Sarah: Okay. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's possible. Yeah. It's possible. If you have someone who's going to function as like a sales appointment setter and a closer or, and a BDM. It's possible. It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases. [00:03:52] Sarah: Okay. Where it never works out is what all entrepreneurs think is, "oh, I'm like that. I can do that." Yeah. So somebody else should be able to do that too. Well, I can shift in and out of different roles and in and out of different personality types, and I can turn it on and off like a light switch when I need to, so then that means everybody can, and it's not true. We are very unique in that.  [00:04:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:17] Sarah: So I can also turn it on and off, like light switch when I need to get into something, I'm like, okay. Like let's go. And then when I'm done, I'm like, oh, okay. Get out of that. And I kind of shift back to my natural normal state. [00:04:30] Sarah: So if any of you guys see me ever in person. That is not my natural normal state. It's just not because it's so high energy. Especially at something like a DoorGrow Live event. Yeah. Like after DoorGrow Live, I crash for about two days, like two full days. This is true. I'm done. I am done. I sleep for like 15 hours, 16 hours straight because I've spent too much time in my opposite. [00:04:54] Sarah: Yeah. And most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that, and most people cannot do that.  [00:05:07] Jason: Yeah. The mistake that a lot of us make, like you said, is we make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do. [00:05:15] Jason: Entrepreneurs do this all the time. They assume other people are money motivated, so they try to bonus them or compensate them with money. Most people are not actually. They assume that people are adaptable and can just wear lots of different hats and be entrepreneurial like that way, but that's also not generally the case. [00:05:34] Jason: And if they are adaptable, usually they go start their own business. So they leave, and I've seen a lot of property managers steal doors from their employers, so their employer's basically just training their next replacement.  [00:05:47] Jason: I love, I think when we don't put the dogs away during a podcast, and I'm being super sarcastic right now. [00:05:52] Sarah: Yeah. Well, I did say this was going to be a quick podcast, but the food... [00:05:56] Sarah: so maybe this is a sign we should wrap it up. Yeah, the food that you ordered is probably...  [00:06:01] Jason: Oh yeah. I ordered some food. [00:06:02] Sarah: ...being delivered right now because it's like six o'clock on a Monday right now. Which is great.  [00:06:07] Jason: They're protecting us from the food. [00:06:09] Jason: So, while we've got a chorus of dogs in the background.  [00:06:12] Sarah: They're just confirming.  [00:06:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:14] Sarah: They're like, definitely they agree with us. Don't try to hire two different people. So here's the idea.  [00:06:19] Jason: Let's break this down real quick and then we'll wrap up because the dogs are going insane, but. People do not have split personalities that you want to hire. [00:06:28] Jason: They're not two different people, and so different roles have different personality types, and it's very difficult to find somebody that can jump into very different roles and personalities that would actually enjoy those. Even you as a business owner, you probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least. [00:06:46] Jason: If not most. Yeah. And so that's the idea. So you need to figure out what would a good property manager look like? What would a good business development person look like? They can't be both. What would a good assistant look like? What would a good operations person look like? What would a good maintenance coordinator look like? [00:07:02] Jason: They can't be multiple things typically, and I think we got to end. Okay. It's getting louder.  [00:07:08] Sarah: They're just dropping off the order. That's all. Now we have three dogs barking.  [00:07:13] Jason: It's not stopping.  [00:07:14] Sarah: So we have a big one and a medium one and a very little one.  [00:07:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:19] Sarah: But you know, that's a good example though, is so we've got three very different dogs. [00:07:25] Sarah: Like Captain is small, he's maybe 14 pounds, and Parker is pretty large. He's about 85 pounds. So would I do the same thing for the big dog that I would do for the little dog? No, I'm going to feed him differently. I'm going to, you know, get him like a different size harness, et cetera. You have to kind of think of roles in your business the same way. If you're trying to treat every role the exact same, it'll be really hard because you'll be like, I don't know, I don't understand. Like that worked with my sales guy. Why can't I just throw more money at this person and then they're going to be better? Yeah. That worked with my sales guy. [00:07:58] Sarah: Yeah, of course it did. It's not going to work in other roles. And then if you're a dual role and you're trying to constantly bounce back and forth, like, oh, I got to do the sales and I got to like do maintenance coordination and like property management work, like, oh well, which, what am I supposed to do? [00:08:14] Sarah: What do I prioritize? And then when you get busy, when you get overwhelmed and you get stressed, something is going to not get done. And it's really hard sometimes to choose, well, what am I going to sacrifice? Because both things are important, and I can tell you that 99% of the time, the thing that will be sacrificed is the thing that they just don't like doing. [00:08:35] Sarah: Yeah. So if they don't like doing the property management piece. Your delivery is going to tank. And then if they don't like doing the sales piece, they're going to focus on the delivery and your sales. You're going to have none. And you'll be wondering, well, I don't understand. Like I hired you to do both and this is why this is that pitfall. [00:08:53] Sarah: So if you want to guarantee that your team is going to fail, that your business is going to be stressed, and that your team, you are, it's almost a guaranteed like turnover of your team as well because they're not going to, they're not going to stay when they're not happy. And part of them is doing a role that they hate. [00:09:11] Sarah: The other part of them might be doing something that they really love, but part of them, for part of their day, they're doing something that they hate.  [00:09:17] Jason: Yeah. So to drive this home, it's really important that you don't put people in a position that they're going to fail. And here's a big major tip. If you have somebody that's good at selling, and you're having them waste time doing anything else, that is a really stupid way to like waste a resource. Like if somebody can make you money and bring fresh money into the business and you have them doing stupid stuff like posting notices or talking to your existing clients. You are wasting a massively valuable resource. [00:09:54] Jason: They would make you so much money they could pay for multiple other team members if you just let them only focus on business development. And so if they can sell, get them just doing that. If they're good at that. If they are good at property management, don't have them waste time dinking around trying to sell. [00:10:11] Jason: Go get somebody that can sell, that can grow your business. Right. And there's other roles, but we're using these two as an example. But yeah, dual roles work. I doesn't work.  [00:10:19] Jason: I think  [00:10:19] Sarah: that's one of the most common ones. I see.  [00:10:21] Jason: Yeah. It is pretty common.  [00:10:22] Sarah: It's either sales and operations, which like never works. [00:10:25] Sarah: Yeah. Or sales and like property management. Yeah. Those are like the two most common that I see. And the way that I explain it to people is. If you understand sports... [00:10:37] Sarah: we're using sports analogy?  [00:10:38] Sarah: We are. We're going to use a sports analogy. Okay. So on a football team...  [00:10:43] Jason: yes. [00:10:43] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:10:46] Jason: yes.  [00:10:46] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:10:47] Jason: super sharp  [00:10:47] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:10:52] Jason: right?  [00:10:52] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:10:56] Jason: No, that'd be stupid.  [00:10:57] Sarah: Or the blocker... [00:10:58] Jason: that would be really bad.  [00:10:59] Sarah: Or a defensive lineman? No way. How about the water boy?  [00:11:02] Sarah: No.  [00:11:03] Sarah: Why would you ever do any of that? Right?  [00:11:04] Sarah: So people who are like, they're like, oh my God, no. So are you going to see the star quarterback doing anything other than his job?  [00:11:13] Jason: No.  [00:11:14] Sarah: Never. Never. No.  [00:11:15] Jason: That's actually a really great analogy.  [00:11:18] Sarah: I know. I'm really smart sometimes. So there's...  [00:11:21] Jason: you're really smart all the time, and you know this.  [00:11:24] Sarah: I do know this. [00:11:24] Jason: Don't pretend you're humble. [00:11:26] Sarah: Well, I'm the most humble of all of the Zodiac signs.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah me too. I'm super humble too.  [00:11:31] Sarah: No, I'm the most humble though.  [00:11:33] Jason: You're way more humble than me.  [00:11:34] Sarah: I'm more humble than all of...  [00:11:36] Jason: you're the most humble ever.  [00:11:37] Sarah: As Scorpios, we all are. Okay, guys. Yeah. So anyway, if you're going to have your quarterback doing anything other than that, like that would just be silly. It would just be stupid. So if you were watching TV and that's what your team did while you were watching...  [00:11:52] Jason: yeah.  [00:11:52] Sarah: And it's like a playoff game. And that's what happens is you're like, why is my quarterback, what are you...? You wouldn't even believe your eyes. But then that's what you are doing in your business is you are taking your sales person, your star sales person, and you're making them do other stuff. So it works the same way. It's divide and conquer. That's like football teams do this. That's why it's not just a free for all when you get on the field, it's like, all right guys, just figure out how to, no. Yeah, they're specialists. They divide and conquer. Your business is the same thing.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's a great analogy. Cool. So it's super obvious in sports, like you've got some guy, man, he could throw it anywhere on the field. Look how accurate he is. He's not super big, but man, he can really throw it. Maybe we should have this guy just be a kicker. Yeah. That would like, that'd be crazy, but somebody's really amazing kicking the ball.  [00:12:39] Sarah: Some of you guys would lose your freaking minds if you saw that happen in a game.  [00:12:42] Jason: Right? But then you're doing it in your business! [00:12:44] Jason: You do it in your own business. You're doing it in your business. They're like, well, they could do both and maybe it'll save money and they can kind of do two things, and you wonder why the business is struggling or not growing. So we need to make strategic hires. We need to be make careful hires. [00:12:56] Jason: We need to get the right personality fit, skill fit, culture fit. We talked about the three fits on previous episodes, but you also want to make sure that personality fit, they are a really great personality fit for that particular role, and you're not trying to hire them for two. All right. Anything else we need to say about this? [00:13:11] Sarah: I don't think so. We're going to go eat.  [00:13:13] Jason: Cool. So if you have felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also, join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:13:34] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

In this powerful episode, we hear the story of Alice, who shares her brave journey through two contrasting pregnancies and the impact of intimate partner violence on her mental health. Co-host Sarah joins as one of our VBAC Link certified doulas to discuss the importance of mental health awareness, especially during pregnancy and postpartum. This episode dives into the significance of having a strong support system and the need for open conversations about postpartum mood disorders and trauma-informed care. Alice is a beautiful example of resilience, healing, and the strength that women possess.National Domestic Violence HotlineNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength. Hello. How are you doing? I hope you are having an amazing week. We have another story coming your way today, and we actually have a co-host today, my friend Sarah. Hello, Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Meagan: Thank you so much for being here today.Sarah: Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.Meagan: I love having our VBAC Link doulas on the podcast here and there. It's fun to not only share you with the world and let people know who you are and where you are, but really just to hear from you guys and hear your educational pieces and just have you guys in the story and giving your input, and I just love it. So thank you so much for being here.Sarah: Absolutely.Meagan: Guys, today, like I said, we have an HBAC coming your way. But I did want to let you know that today's episode may have mention of partner abuse and suicide. I really, really, really think it is so important to really not mask stories and share the rawness of people's stories because I think the rawness and the real story is what makes us who we are today and really creates the story to be true. I just wanted to give you guys a heads-up. But I'm going to turn the time over to Sarah. She is in replace of our review today doing an educational piece and actually talking about mental health.Sarah: Yeah. Hi. So again, I'm super excited to be here. I'm Sarah Marie Bilder. I'm located in the upstate South Carolina area and I do birth and postpartum doula work. I really just wanted to cover the topic of mental health because in the story that we're gonna hear today, it's pretty relevant and it's one of those things that aren't often talked about. I don't wanna say that that's not talked about because when we say that it kind of, I feel, diminishes the people that are talking about it. It's important to really highlight when we are talking about it. But a lot of the times when we're preparing for pregnancy, we're focused on the physical aspects or maybe mindfulness or something along those lines, but we don't really dig deep into postpartum mood disorders or when there are mood disorders that are still occurring in pregnancy or even that might exist before we're pregnant that will still continue throughout pregnancy. So it's really important to make sure that we're having these conversations and that we're being open and honest with the people around us. Maybe if you aren't in therapy or have somebody sort of set up along those lines, you still have a close friend or a support person that you can be sharing this information with or really opening up about the feelings that you're having because they are very real feelings, and even into postpartum, it goes more than just the baby blues. There are a lot of different things that can be occurring and happening that it's really important to continue to have those support people. So as a doula, this is something that I make sure my clients are aware of and open to, and I try to be as much of a support person as possible, but knowing when professionals need to step in and when situations need to be handled I think is really key. So making sure that you have people to talk to, making sure when you listen to these stories that you are considering different situations and different aspects and that we're talking to our mom friends too. If you're not the one currently going through it, if you're hearing somebody else going through different situations, we're continuing to stay open and stay together and stay supportive.Meagan: Yes, I love that. Thank you so much for that message. I also want to add through to it that after we have our babies, we are given a six-week follow-up. You do not have to wait six weeks to talk to your provider. If you are feeling these feelings, you do not have to wait until then. You one, can get in sooner. But two, there are other resources, and we will make sure to have those resources shared at the end of this episode and in our show notes. So if you or anyone that you know and love are experiencing these things, please know that there is more help. Okay, Alice and Sarah, thank you so much again for being here today. I want to turn the time over to you, Ms. Alice.Alice: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and share my story.Meagan: Me too.Alice: So I have had two pregnancies, two births, and they were both very, very different. My first pregnancy, when I think about when I found out I was pregnant with my first, it was the lowest point of my life. I was nine months into being married to my abuser and had really lost my entire sense of self. I was at this point where I just didn't understand how I had gotten there. I didn't understand how I had married him. I found myself hospitalized from a suicide attempt. I also had no social support. I had no family in the area. I had no job. My husband was an attorney, and I relied on his friends and his family for emotional support. I was hospitalized and felt very lost. About a week into my hospitalization, the staff, who were constantly running tests and blood draws, pulled me out of a group where I was learning how to deeply breathe, and to my shock, told me I was pregnant. I had no idea. It was just a very out-of-body experience being hospitalized for mental illness. Some people can find it really helpful in healing, and it can also be a trauma in itself, and it was that for me. So to be in this setting where I had no freedom, and then these people were telling me what was inside of my body. It was-- I couldn't process it. I was very disconnected to my pregnancy at first. The next five days of being hospitalized, I was presented with a lot of information about pregnancy and intimate partner violence. It's information that I think is really important for providers to know, but it was presented to me as a new pregnant person in an abusive relationship in a way that felt really coercive and fear-mongering. They told me that the leading cause of death in the United States for pregnant women was intimate partner homicide. Meagan: Okay. Alice: Yeah. I remember one provider telling me, "Your options are to terminate the pregnancy or to leave him now. It's our professional opinion that if you stay in this relationship while pregnant, it's very likely that he will kill you before you give birth." Meagan: Gosh. Alice: I remember feeling so shocked and afraid. I knew I wanted to be a mom. I think the decision to continue a pregnancy or not when you're faced with, it's always a difficult decision. It was for me because I was afraid, and I knew I wanted to be a mom. I also knew that I couldn't leave yet. The leaving is really complicated, and it's not a direct line to safety. I remember feeling when they were talking to me about leaving, like, "Well, you could go here or you could call this person," thinking like, don't you think I've already thought of this? Don't you think I've thought of every way to keep myself safe? Now I was pregnant, and I wanted the assumption that I was making decisions that were best for me and my baby. My pregnancy was difficult. I had hyperemesis and I had this pregnancy rash that was really itchy my whole pregnancy. They kept testing my bile levels, and they were all normal and never knew what was going on. I have scars on my body from scratching. I'm pretty sure now that it was just stress and breaking out in hives throughout my pregnancy. I had broken ribs in my third trimester. When I think about that pregnancy, I remember it being a time of suffering and fear. I feel sad for myself when I think of myself during that time experiencing pregnancy like that. At the same time, I had an incredible midwifery team based out of a hospital. I can't say enough about how supportive and trauma-informed they were. They never pressured me to leave. They asked questions like, "What can we do to help? How can we make you safer?" They trusted that I was doing everything I could and that I knew how to keep myself safe and how to keep my baby safe. I was living with my in-laws when I went into labor with my first. I had moved in and out of our home depending on how safe it was. I didn't have anywhere to go other than his parents'. I was living with them and my waters had been leaking for a few days and I knew. I was like, I know I'm not peeing this much all the time. I knew that my waters were leaking, but I didn't want to go to the hospital yet because I hadn't started contracting, and I knew they would induce. I started having contractions at midnight. I went in about 24 hours later. It was really slow. I tried everything I could to get things moving, but it just wouldn't speed up. I ended up being induced. I don't necessarily regret the decision to be induced. It did lead to a C-section, but when I went into the hospital, I didn't know what home I would go to. I wanted to be there. I remember thinking, I want to stay here. If that means I have to get induced, that means I get induced. But I felt much safer being in a hospital at that point. They started the induction process. I had a doula come, and I also had my therapist come. She was with me through my entire labor at the hospital and birth for-- she was there maybe 45 hours. We had made a contract and it's pretty innovative to have my therapist there as a support person at my birth. I think it's an induction story that we all know my body wasn't ready. I was on Pitocin for a very long time. Baby's heart rate started decelerating, not tolerating labor, and made the decision to have a Cesarean. It wasn't the birth that I wanted, but it was the safety that I wanted. I had support there. They made sure to tell me specific things that were in my birth plan that were triggers for me. When I was laid on the table for the C-section, someone got very close to my ear and said, "No one's tying you down. I know your arms are out. It might feel like that, but know you are not restrained." At one point, the anesthesiologist started petting my head because he was sitting by my head. The obstetrician who was just there to do my C-section, wasn't there for very long. She had read my birth plan and said to the male anesthesiologist, "She doesn't like her head to be touched." He stopped. I felt very seen. I did skin-to-skin in the delivery room. My therapist was in the operating room with me. It wasn't a terrible Cesarean experience. So postpartum was pretty hard. When I left the hospital, I was living alone with my baby. My in-laws agreed to encourage my husband to live with them so that we could be safe from him during the postpartum time. But living alone after a C-section with no family or friends and no doula was very, very difficult. My husband had substance-use disorder, and he took my pain medication when I got home. I just remember being in a lot of pain. I also was in this haze of falling in love with my baby. It still shocks me that I did not experience postpartum depression with my first. I was depressed through my pregnancy, and I also think I was in such a survival mode during the first year of my first baby's life that I didn't have any space to process or space to grieve. I was surviving. One year after giving birth to my first, I did file for divorce to get a restraining order and safely flee with my child, but it was a very long, difficult road.Meagan: If you are someone who is experiencing domestic violence during pregnancy, postpartum or just in general, there is help. You can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233.Alice: So that was my first birth experience. Fast forward to four years later, I've memorialized the day that I found out that I was pregnant with my first because it was such the lowest point of my life. I think of it as this time where I was ready for my life to end. I'm gonna cry, but instead my life doubled and it led to this beautiful little human who I get to be a mom to and really changed the trajectory of my entire life, so I call it my life day. Four years later, on my life day, I was in a loving relationship with the most gentle man. I still am in that relationship. I felt like things were a little wonky with my body. I woke up and took a pregnancy test and saw on the exact same day that the hospital told me that I was pregnant, four years later, I had a positive pregnancy test. I was in a home that I owned, a home that was safe and filled with love and a relationship that was safe and loving. It was just so different. I went and I laid in bed with my then 3-year-old and said, "We're gonna be just fine." And I knew that we were going to be. My second pregnancy was also different. It was very healing. I experienced a lot of sadness again because I think I had space to grieve the first time. It also happened because I got pregnant right around the same time. It was like this weird re-do of my first one now with a loving partner and safety and getting to be pregnant. I think about what I wanted for my body and how to stay healthy. I didn't take a single vitamin during my first pregnancy. I was just focused on, how do I stay safe today? I can't even count all the supplements I was on this time. I knew pretty soon that I wanted a home birth. I feel like I was pretty educated on VBAC. I had been listening to The VBAC Link since I was pregnant with my first. I don't know why because I hadn't had a C-section yet, but I had loved the podcast and I knew the rates of repeat Cesareans. I also work in labor and delivery units and I know that they're very risk-averse. I felt like it was the safest option to birth at home. I also felt the weight of how precious it was to have a safe home that I could birth in. It was very meaningful for me to give birth in a space that was mine and was safe. My partner, who knew nothing about home birth, I broached the subject with him early in pregnancy was like, "I want to let you know. I don't know what you think about this, but I want to have a home birth." And he was just like, "Great." I was pretty surprised that he was so on board, but he trusted me, and he trusted me the whole way through. I did not have hyperemesis the second time. I didn't have the rash problem. I didn't have the broken ribs. I did have a lot of pain from pubic symphysis. Yeah, the second half of my pregnancy was like very difficult to even walk. I broke my pelvis in my teenage years and was a little unsure of how that healed. I broke it in two places. I have had this fear of, what if there's a bunch of scar tissue around a bone and baby's head couldn't get through? So I had that fear as well going into my home birth. My midwife was very skilled and very kind. It was a different experience of prenatal care. I also really loved my hospital prenatal care. I think given that I was in a high-risk situation, I loved my hospital prenatal care. It was exactly what I needed. And in my second birth, my home birth midwife was exactly what I needed. In my second birth, I went over my due date by 11 days which was such a mind game. I was so over it. I was just this crazy person who was doing everything that I could to get this baby out of me, but also was like, "No, I wanna be holistic. I don't to be induced. I'm not gonna--," so there were two parts of myself that were battling each other. But I, finally went into labor. My mother was here as well. My family lives far away, but my mother came to support me this time. It was just my mom and my partner and my three-year-old. I labored at home. I had my music. It was just a lovely experience of laboring and of joining in this experience that so many women have had of pain and beauty and endurance and strength. I felt so connected to the world and to women and to my mom. My midwife came. I started laboring at 7:00 PM. At 2:00 PM the next day, my midwife came. I labored in the tub. I had a blow-up birthing pool. I felt like labor was pretty straightforward until the last five hours that I was fully dilated, but he just wasn't descending. The midwife checked me and said that his head was stuck on my pubic bone. He was stuck there for five hours. It was a lot of pushing, but I wasn't really pushing the right way.It felt like contractions that just weren't producing anything. It wasn't opening anything. It wasn't moving him down. It was just nothing. I started to get really discouraged. We joke a lot about how belligerent I was towards the end. Right before I gave birth, I got very bossy and I decided it wasn't go going to happen. Like, "He's not going to descend. I'm over this. Call 911. Tell them to bring drugs. I need them here now." My midwife was like, "That's not how it works." I was like "No, call the police. Tell them to bring narcotics. I need to stop feeling this." I was being ridiculous. My midwife was encouraging me saying, "He is coming down. I know you're not feeling it, but I feel his head and it's right there. I think you're gonna have a car baby if we get in the car. and I don't want that to happen." I'm not a rude person, but I guess in labor, I am. But I stuck my finger in my vagina, and I was like, "Well, I don't feel him." They were loading up to go to the hospital because I was so insistent that this was not happening. I was standing in the living room and I said, "Wait." My partner was like, "She said wait." I could feel him coming down. It was the first time I really felt his head coming through my birth canal. It was such a different feeling. In 30 minutes, I pushed him out standing in our living room. It was just beautiful and lovely, and he was on my chest. My 3-year-old was there. Baby was on my chest. I was lying on my partner's chest. Nothing else mattered in that moment. Yeah. It was a lovely, beautiful, healing experience to come full-circle. I also gave birth on the four-year anniversary of filing for divorce and getting a restraining order from my abuser. It's like all of these things lined up just to give me this healing experience of new life.Meagan: Yeah. Seriously, these milestones that you're able to overcome from the past and replace with joy and beauty and excitement and healing. Oh, I have chills through the whole episode. How about you, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah. There's just so many parts of your story that are so unique and so fitting. There's so much strength in it, and there's so much emotion in listening and feeling all of the things that obviously you were going through. And some were external, but a lot were very internal. Thank you for sharing your story. The ability to be able to share your story takes so much strength in itself. Yeah.Meagan: We could see that and could see it in your eyes. You had my eyes welling up a few times. I was just feeling all the emotion as you were sharing and all the heartache in the beginning that you were sharing. And I loved how you were like, "I was in this. I was going through this really terrible, scary experience," but you were able to stay in this haze of bonding and you two together, you two thriving and surviving in this really unfortunate circumstance, but I am so glad that you were able to have that and grow and then now have this safe, loving home, and two cute babes.Alice: Yeah, they are cute.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And although your story's so unique, it's also in very many of our VBAC stories. We have that traumatic experience and then it leads to that very healing experience. I think it's just one of those things. You had mentioned having that space to process and getting out of that survival mode too. I think that's really amazing to honor that and mention that because sometimes we are just in that survival mode, and we don't allow ourself or we don't have the ability to give ourselves that time to really process what is occurring and what is happening. And a lot of the time we just need to do that, and we need to allow ourselves the time to do some fear-clearing and release a lot of that anxiety and other fears that are happening and going on.Meagan: Also on the end of the story, when you were talking about five hours where baby was just kind of hanging out there and you were stuck there pushing, but not really pushing, but in this weird, funky spot in labor, we have seen this where people are pushing and they're like, "Your baby's not descending." We are actually given a diagnosis of failure to descend as a reason for Cesarean, but then simply standing up and moving-- and I'm sure you were moving and grooving along the way, but it just sometimes is one specific motion. It might have been the quickness of you standing up like, "Okay, I'm going. We're going to do this," that did it. We don't know.I love seeing too that you were saying, "I had a broken pelvis in the past. I don't really know how that healed." In a lot of ways, a lot of providers would be like, "You had a broken pelvis. You don't have a proven pelvis. I don't know. I don't think I'm comfortable with this." But then here you did it, right? But that movement and I don't know, I just feel like there's so much power within our bodies that it's just incredible, and I love seeing that. And then your partner was like, "Wait, hold on. Don't go anywhere. I think we're staying." I love that that is exactly how it unfolded and that your other baby was able to be there with you, and just so many amazing things about your story. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and just being here with us.Alice: Thank you. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Things don't always go as planned in life and in business. It's important for property management entrepreneurs to be able to roll with the punches. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss a recent experience where they were forced to pivot and adapt over and over again. You'll Learn [01:58] The Original Plan [05:31] How a Winter Storm Distrupted a Business and Family Trip [08:52] Moral of the Story: Be Prepared [11:08] Your Plan is Not Always the Right Plan for You Tweetables “Moral of the story is be prepared.” “This is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt.” “There may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now.” “ The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:00:09] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game.  [00:00:17] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] Jason: DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:16] Jason: So, today we are recording this episode at, what time is it now?  [00:01:22] Sarah: It is almost midnight.  [00:01:23] Jason: It is late. On Monday. And this will go live or be streamed later. And so if you're watching this, thanks for watching. And we're not actually like real time live at this moment, but it's because we had to change things up and make different plans.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Live in the moment, we're probably still in the car.  [00:01:45] Jason: Yeah, so we will be driving tomorrow during our podcast episode. So we wanted to record this episode real quick so we can get one out. And in today's topic, we're just going to share a little bit of our adventure. And, you know, the moral of the story will be things don't always go according to plan. [00:02:03] Jason: So.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Sure don't.  [00:02:05] Jason: Alright, so, where do we start?  [00:02:08] Sarah: Alright, well, let's do quick synopsis. Where are we right now? Ohio, I think? I'm pretty sure we're in Ohio.  [00:02:15] Jason: I think so.  [00:02:16] Sarah: I think it's Ohio is the right answer. So, we've been to, in the last few days, we left on Friday, we've been to Texas, we've been to two days in Tennessee, we accidentally went to Kentucky, now we're in Ohio, tomorrow we're going to Pennsylvania. [00:02:30] Sarah: So, I think that's five states. Five states in five days. It's a great time. So, we're driving from Texas to Pennsylvania. It's supposed to be a straight shot, up like this. And it's this crazy record breaking winter storm, and we're driving through some of that. We're missing the big part of it. [00:02:51] Sarah: So we had to adjust our route. So our plan, this was our plan, was to leave on Friday. We're going from Texas to Memphis, Tennessee. Then the next morning, we were going to go to Graceland. We did do that, and then we spent some time in Nashville that evening. And then from Nashville, we were going to go to Morganstown, West Virginia, and then from there, drive into Dallas, Pennsylvania. [00:03:18] Sarah: So, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we were supposed to get to Pennsylvania on Monday, which is tonight, we are not in Pennsylvania. We are, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in Ohio, past Akron. And where, what's the name of this?  [00:03:32] Jason: Youngstown.  [00:03:33] Sarah: Youngstown, near Youngstown. That's where we are, right now. And so that was our plan. And then because of this crazy storm, we were leaving Nashville. We left Nashville. Roads were fine. Then all of a sudden, a little bit of rain. That was okay. Then, snow. And that was awful. And we were trying to get from Nashville, Tennessee up to Morgantown, West Virginia. Did not happen. Not even close. So we were going to stop in Lexington, Kentucky for lunch around like 3 o'clock or 3:30. That was not the plan. We ended up staying in Kentucky because it took us so long to get to Kentucky because of the crazy storm that we then had to stay overnight in Lexington and then reroute. So we were going this way and now we're going that way.  [00:04:31] Jason: So do you want to share why we're doing a road trip? [00:04:34] Jason: Which is crazy to do.  [00:04:36] Sarah: It's crazy to do. I know, right? I could have flown there in a day. So we're driving my car that I've owned for a couple years now. I'm driving to Pennsylvania, and I'm giving the car to my mom as a gift. She has absolutely no idea.  [00:04:52] Jason: It's a surprise.  [00:04:53] Sarah: That this is happening. [00:04:54] Sarah: I don't think she watches the podcast.  [00:04:56] Jason: No. Probably not.  [00:04:56] Sarah: Hopefully it's safe. But I'm gifting the car to my mom. I want her to have a nice car, and a reliable car, and not have to worry about things. So, I'm gifting her the car. She has absolutely no idea. Coincidentally, it's also in a couple of days, my brother Jason's birthday. [00:05:14] Sarah: So, shout out to Jason. Happy early birthday. We love you. And we're going to do this little trip. We're going to see my family for a little bit. We're going to go out to dinner for my brother Jason's birthday. Give my mom a car, and then fly back home and we are running an event. So that's why we're doing all of this in the first place. [00:05:31] Sarah: The whole crazy part of the story here is when we left Nashville, we were trying to get to Morganstown. It was insane on the road. Just wildly insane. Like snow, ice, there was a mix, there was sleet. We were going like 40 miles an hour. I was just happy to be moving. We saw multiple cars that had run off the road. [00:05:58] Sarah: We saw a couple of tractor trailers that we're in accidents. We saw a few accidents. We were almost in a few accidents ourselves. And this trip is not at all going as planned. We had to move our flight, and then move our flight again, and then move our flight a third time. So then we, last night we almost gave up on this whole thing. [00:06:18] Sarah: I was going to quit and just leave my car in Cincinnati, fly home. back to Texas and then come back and finish the second leg of this trip a second time. Jason woke up this morning and he said, "I think we can do it, babe. I think we can do it." So here we are, but this is not...  [00:06:35] Jason: We were not prepared for this storm. [00:06:37] Jason: This car had pretty bald tires, which was... we were not ready.  [00:06:43] Sarah: No.  [00:06:43] Jason: Yeah. So after sliding off the road a little bit, twice, yeah, on a freeway.  [00:06:50] Sarah: On a freeway.  [00:06:51] Jason: On a highway. Yeah.  [00:06:52] Sarah: And car is supposed to be heading in this direction, and then it turned in.  [00:06:57] Jason: And we were just off to the side, so we were able to get back on the road safely both times. [00:07:02] Jason: Thank goodness. Yeah. And not get hit by a tractor trailer.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah, we didn't get hit by anything. The car didn't get damaged. We are safe. And to that I can only thank God. The whole time I was praying, our fathers, I was saying Hail Mary's, our fathers, the whole time. I was just praying to God and God took care of us made sure that we were safe made sure the car is safe, made sure that we got where we were going, made sure we didn't get stranded in the car because we saw a couple people stranded.  [00:07:30] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:31] Sarah: It was scary. [00:07:31] Sarah: It was really scary.  [00:07:32] Jason: We eventually pulled off and went and found a tire store  [00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, we were going to continue out there for a while.  [00:07:38] Jason: Got new tires.  [00:07:39] Sarah: And something told me it might have been God telling me like "go, you need tires. Go get tires." So I said to Jason, I said, "Can you find...?"  [00:07:47] Sarah: Can you find? No.  [00:07:49] Jason: I wanted to get some better tires on that car, for sure. [00:07:51] Sarah: So, I said, "is there a tire place that's like, nearby, that's open right now, that we can go to right now?" So we did. Took a little pit stop detour, but it was very well worth it. I just don't think we would have made the rest of the trip in one piece.  [00:08:06] Jason: The first tire store we went to was closed.  [00:08:08] Sarah: Yeah. Like it wasn't even plowed to get to it. They were closed. The third one was a tread. So we got new tires. That's good. The guy at the tire store, what did he tell you? The tread level was like a four. It's real, it's really bad.  [00:08:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:21] Sarah: It was real bad. Yeah. So, that was fun.  [00:08:23] Jason: So We got fresh tires. Then the car drove really well. [00:08:27] Jason: Plus we had pretty much made it through the worst of the weather, which we had planned. Because there were two ways we could go. The northern route had less weather, so.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yep. That's why we're in Ohio.  [00:08:41] Jason: So.  [00:08:41] Sarah: And not through West Virginia.  [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah, we'd probably be in a very terrible spot if we had gone the wrong way. [00:08:47] Jason: So.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Yeah. We'd be off on the side of the road frozen like popsicles. Oh gosh. You guys would never hear from us again.  [00:08:52] Jason: So moral of the story is be prepared. Make sure you're prepared. Have a plan. And so we've done lots of plans and changing of plans and so this is part of life. And this is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt. And so one thing entrepreneurs, we are good at is adaptability. We figure it out cause we have to, and we adapt. And so we've adapted a lot today. [00:09:23] Jason: And yesterday. The last couple days. Yeah, the last couple days.  [00:09:25] Sarah: We had a plan, we changed a plan, we changed that plan, we changed a plan again. We just keep changing it.  [00:09:30] Jason: And that causes us. We're just rolling with the punches. That causes us to have to adapt in business. So here we are recording a podcast. [00:09:36] Jason: Here we are.  [00:09:36] Sarah: At midnight.  [00:09:37] Jason: In a hotel room.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Which Jason did not want to do.  [00:09:39] Jason: No. No. I was like, we don't have to do anything that we don't want to do. We don't have to do this.  [00:09:44] Sarah: No. And I said, we are not recording a podcast live from the car because we might die. No.  [00:09:49] Jason: We're not going to do that.  [00:09:49] Sarah: We might die live on camera. [00:09:51] Sarah: Yeah, that would be...  [00:09:52] Jason: All right. So hopefully some of you got some value from this. If you do not have a good plan for your business, then that's something that we can help you with here at DoorGrow, help you come up with a plan, and help you adapt to some of the things that are getting thrown at your way. [00:10:09] Jason: This is why we mapped out the DoorGrow code, our roadmap, for some of the most common challenges and problems. So if you would like a copy of the DoorGrow code, just reach out to us. We'd be happy to give you one and tell you a little bit about how we might be able to help you and hear about your challenges. [00:10:24] Jason: So reach out to us. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com or go to our website or join our free Facebook group by going to doorgrowclub.Com. Make sure to answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of the applicants that try to join that group. So it's only for property management business owners. [00:10:44] Jason: So if you own a property management business or seriously planning on starting one, then you can request access to that group. Make sure to answer the questions. We would love to have you inside. And that's it.  [00:10:55] Sarah: No, that's not it. No.  [00:10:56] Jason: Oh, there's more.  [00:10:57] Sarah: That wasn't it. I said, what are we going to talk about this episode? [00:11:00] Sarah: I told you what we're going to talk about, then we just... So.  [00:11:03] Sarah: It's not the end of the episode. Surprise! A little bit more. But wait, there's more! [00:11:07] Jason: But wait, there's more.  [00:11:08] Sarah: So for those of you that do have a plan, and you're like, "yeah, no, I definitely have a plan. This is not applicable to me," we had a plan going into this as well. [00:11:17] Sarah: So, when you have a plan and life does not work out the way that you planned, and things don't work out the way that you thought that they would, and you're going through things and you're trying to figure out, you know, "what am I doing wrong? And why isn't this working? And like, why is this so hard? I don't understand why it's not happening the way that I wanted it to happen," and why it's just maybe not happening at all... [00:11:40] Sarah: or maybe it's happening, but it's just so slow, and it's so hard, then you just need to know that sometimes there's a bigger plan in place for you somewhere. And if you're religious, you might believe that God, or the universe, or fate, or whatever you might want to call it. There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:12:07] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game. Just like when we thought we would go to West Virginia. Had we actually gotten to West Virginia, we'd be stranded there for sure, because they are getting hammered with snow right now. [00:12:22] Sarah: So the whole, like, West Virginia, D. C. area Hammered with snow, and that was our plan. So I'm grateful, although it's a little crazy, I'm grateful that we didn't end up going that way. I'm grateful that there was a bigger plan in place for us. So just trust that you do have support when you reach out to people like your mentors, and if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, there are so many resources for you, including property managers who are in the exact same spot that you are in. [00:12:56] Sarah: They've been there. They've done that. They've experienced everything. So leverage the resources that you have available to you. Know that there's support and know that everything is unfolding exactly the way it's supposed to for you in this exact moment. And you will have your breakthrough. The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit. [00:13:14] Sarah: See, and now we're done.  [00:13:15] Jason: Good words. Good stuff, Sarah. All right.  [00:13:18] Sarah: All right. We're going to go to bed now.  [00:13:20] Jason: Yeah. Get some sleep.  [00:13:22] Sarah: Yep.  [00:13:22] Jason: So until next time, to our mutual growth. Hope you all crush it. Bye, everyone. [00:13:27] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Chrissie always dreamed that the birth of her babies would be the happiest days of her life. But with her first two births, they were among the worst. In today's episode, Chrissie expresses the heartbreak she felt after doing everything to prepare for a VBAC and not get it. Though she wasn't sure how her third birth would go, the healing, research, and advocacy she did made all the difference in her experience. She called the shots, listened to her intuition, and ultimately saved her baby's life by being so in tune with herself and her body. And finally, the birth of her third baby was the most beautiful, joyful, and happiest day. Coterie DiapersUse code VBAC20 at checkout for 20% off your first order of $40 or more.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a CBAC after two Cesareans story coming your way today. This is a story that we felt we should share because it is so important to document our CBAC stories as well. Even though there are a lot of things that are going to unfold within our guest, Chrissie's story, it's so important to see how much she has grown and healed over each experience. Listening to her, a few things came up in my mind as I was listening. It was intuition. We've said it for years, honestly since 2018 when this podcast began. Intuition is so powerful, and sometimes it's hard to turn into and understand what your intuition is or what fear is, but I challenge you right now to start tuning into that. When you're getting the feelings, is it your intuition? Really, really connect with that intuition because it is so powerful. Another thing that I felt was a big takeaway from her story was how much she researched and gained knowledge of her own rights and her own ability to say no or to say, “Not now, not yet. No, thank you.” Women of Strength, I know it's hard, and it's really hard when we're in labor. I know it. But you always have the right to say no. You can always say no. Chrissie really did such a good job at researching and educating herself and arming herself up with the knowledge that she needed to so she could confidently say no when she needed to but also confidently say, “Hey, this is something that needs to change,” and stand up for herself in that time. I do have a Review of the Week, so I want to jump into this, and then turn the time over to Chrissie. Okay, this review is hseller. Hseller, I think is how it is. It says, “Life-changing. I don't even know where to begin. This podcast has honestly been life-changing. I am currently 9 months postpartum after my first Cesarean birth, and I've already binged every episode. I honestly believe The VBAC Link should be a resource for every birthing person, not just VBAC, on how to prevent a Cesarean to begin with. This needs to be part of basic birth education.”Oh, girl. I am with you on this. I am with you on this. It says, “I have shared this podcast and the blog with every friend of mine who is expecting because I wish I would have known about it before my first birth. Listening to the podcast reminds me that I'm not alone in my experiences and that this is possible and to have an amazing, empowering birth is possible. Julie and Meagan deliver facts, stories, and inspiration in such a wonderful way. Hearing their voices when an episode comes on puts me in a happy place. My husband and I have already been talking about baby number two. I can't wait to share my next birth story because with an education and support I now have, I know it will be beautiful and healing regardless of the outcome.”Thank you so much, hseller, for your review. You guys, these reviews really do mean so much. It is now 2025, and we do need updated reviews. You never know. It may be read on the next podcast. We are switching things up this year with educational pieces and topics of reviews and things like that, so you never know. But please, please, please leave us a review. It means the world to us. Meagan: Okay, you guys, I'm seriously so excited. It's always so fun to have multiple people on the show and cohosts, but it's also really fun to have doulas sharing the story or listening to the story with their clients and giving their tidbits. So Chrissie, I'm going to turn the time over to you and then of course, Sarah will be hearing from you, I'm sure along the way as well.Chrissie: All right. Hi, I'm Chrissie. I live in Greenville, South Carolina and I'm going to tell you about my three birth stories. All VBACs and repeat Cesarean stories start with your first C-section. Julian was our first C-section.He was conceived during my husband and I's fourth month of dating. My husband and I both knew marriage and kids were our desire with each other almost instantly, but it was still crazy to think about how fast it happened. Everything was going fine until about 30 weeks when I started to be measuring about a week behind and was scheduled for a growth scan which we couldn't get into until about 32 weeks.During that scan, it was confirmed that Julian was measuring close to the lower 10th percentile and that I, from that point, would be scheduled for regular non-stress tests every week for the rest of the pregnancy. His check at 36 weeks was non-reactive which is not what they like to see. I was sent for a biophysical profile. He was graded so low that I was told to immediately go to labor and delivery and not eat or drink anything, which as a nurse, I know that means they were assuming I may have surgery in the very near future.I was planning to go to work right from my original appointment, so I reported to work, but then went right upstairs and burst into tears of fear. I was given fluid, and he woke up because of the scare. But because of the scare, I was scheduled for an induction at 39 weeks and because I didn't know any better, I was just excited to meet him a week early.On the day of my induction, I showed up bright and early, ready to get things going. I had done no preparation, assuming that my high pain tolerance and grit would serve me well. I wasn't against pain medication, but I was ready to test my limits. Julian passed the non-stress test, so they started Pitocin, and he was doing fine, so they decided to insert a Foley bulb to speed things up.When they inserted it, my water broke, so that kind of put me on the clock. Once I got to about 4 centimeters 12 hours later, I was somehow feeling discouraged and tired and asked for the epidural. My husband said as he was holding my hunched over body that a huge teardrop fell out of my eye as the needle went in and the zing sensation went down my leg.I, was already giving up, but had no idea what I was setting myself up for.Over the next four hours, Julian's heart rate would drop with every contraction while Pitocin was going. They would turn it off, and he would be fine. And then when they restarted it, he would have the non-reassuring heart tones again. I was not explained to why I needed to wear oxygen or keep flipping from side to side or what low heart tones meant. All I know is that at 1:00 AM, they called for a C-section because we were getting close to the 24-hour rupture of membranes.If I had known then what I have learned since then, I would have tried to steer my birth in so many different directions. Unfortunately, birthing people are not given this kind of information upfront, which is. Why I think The VBAC Link is so important for any pregnant person as it could potentially help 1 in 3 women who end up consenting to a C-section to this day. I was devastated. I never thought the dramatic push and bringing baby to my chest at long last was something that wouldn't happen for me, let alone I would mourn missing out on it. I was wheeled into the OR. My arms were strapped down to either side of me. My arms were shaking and pulling uncontrollably to the point that when my Julian was given to me, I was too scared to hold him thinking I would drop him since my arms felt like Jell-O. I've since learned that because my epidural was converted for the C-section that I would feel extremely unpleasant sensations of my innards being pushed and pulled out of my body. All I could think about was my dad saying, "It was the happiest day of my life when you were born," and somehow this was feeling like one of the worst days of my life. I felt a double loss. It took me a long time to get over feeling like a sham for not giving birth the real way, but on the table, they said we gave you a double stitch so you can VBAC the next time. Over the next five and a half years that became an overwhelming objective and purpose in my life. When Julian turned 1, I had my IUD removed. I still had not gotten my period back but was hopeful it would return soon since had started to wean him from breastfeeding. When it did return, it was not normal. I would be spotting for weeks afterward and had a strange dull pain on and off constantly. I was so desperate to get pregnant so that I could get my VBAC thinking that all the horrible feelings I was having would go away. Or so I thought.After what felt like the longest four months ever, I did conceive our daughter, Ellie. It was January 2020. To this day, there are so many songs, books, and kids' shows that I cannot watch because they remind me of the early days of the pandemic. My son and I both got flu A and flu B during the first three months of the year, and it was terrifying to be relieved by a positive flu test.As an ER nurse, I was put on furlough since no one was coming into the ER, and many of us were sent to New York City and hard-hit areas to help where help was needed. I had to tell my manager earlier than I would have liked that I was pregnant and scared to be around some of the symptomatic COVID patients because we did not know what would happen. Sometime in the spring when people couldn't stand quarantine anymore and were going out and socializing again, the patients in the ER spiked, and I went back to work at six months pregnant. Even though it was terrifying, I was glad to be out of the house with somewhere to go and have a purpose.Those winter and spring months were some of the most depressing and hardest to get through in my life up to that point. I spent a lot of the time doing all the things that you can do to achieve a VBAC. I took a mindful birthing course over Zoom because they weren't doing any in-person things at that point.I read several books, did Spinning Babies exercises, hired a doula, etc. The thought of finally getting my VBAC was at times my only motivator to get up and do the things some days, other than the bare minimum to keep my one-year-old and me alive as horrible as that sounds.When I reached 37 weeks, I went into quarantine, and the waiting game began. I walked miles and miles and practiced mindfulness techniques to get through the pain. I was scared that the epidural had led to my son being in distress. So by this point, Ellie had passed all of the extra growth scans. She was head down. Everything looked perfect. By 40 weeks and five days, I became extremely stressed out. I had an induction scheduled for 41 and three days that was making me so nervous. My husband and I attempted to speed things up, breaking my water in the process.As soon as I felt the gush of fluid, I felt my heart sink and was overcome with fear and regret. It was starting just like the first birth I did with the premature rupture of membranes and what I believed would be an inevitable cascade of interventions that would lead to a repeat C-section.The rupture occurred around 3:00 PM, and I decided I should try to rest and wait for things to ramp up. By 10:00 PM, things were regular but not painful. I decided to try and go to sleep, but because of my trauma from the first birth, I wanted to make sure that she wasn't having issues with deceleration. I got my stethoscope out and listened to her heart rate as I had done several times before that point. It sounded normal and I listened to it through a few contractions.Every time, I could hear her heart rate slow very noticeably. I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to go to the hospital because I knew what they would say. I didn't want to tell my husband because I knew he would want me to go to the hospital, but I was genuinely concerned for her. So I let my husband listen, and he started getting dressed immediately to go. I knew it was over.When you arrive at L&D, they ask for a reason for you being there. As a nurse, I knew what I was about to say was going to sound insane, but I said, "I think my baby is having distress. I heard her decelerations on my stethoscope at home."I could see the amusement in the triage nurse's eyes as I said this. But she said, "Okay, let's get you hooked up and see what's going on." Sure enough, she was already having category 2 decelerations, and I was only 1 centimeter dilated. The resident said that my contractions were only about 5 minutes apart, but that because of the decelerations, she would be admitting me right away.She said we could try fluids and some position changes, but it was looking like the C-section was going to be the only safe way to get her out since I was so far from 10 centimeters.Before she left the room, she said, "I know this is going to be very disappointing for you since you wanted to VBAC, but you may have saved your baby's life by coming in when you did. It's amazing that you knew to listen and could interpret what you heard."Long story short, nothing worked, and I was prepped for the C-section. My COVID test was negative, so my husband was going to be allowed to come into the OR. Tears were streaming down my face the whole way. I walked into the OR and sat myself on the table for the epidural. I was still in the clothes I had walked in wearing. That's how fast things were going. The epidural was placed, and they started prepping me after a few minutes. They still had the fetal monitor attached for some reason, and we heard her heart drop into the 70s and not come back up. I could hear the sense of urgency on the other side of the drape. And suddenly, I felt several sharp pricks across my abdomen. I was lying there with so many thoughts running through my head. But thankfully, one of those thoughts was, "I wonder why they just poked me like that. Oh, I guess they're checking to see if I was numb. Wait, I felt that."I yelled, "Wait, I felt that."And they were like, "What? Was it dull or sharp?" I yelled, "It was sharp." They poked me again and again, and I kept saying, "It's sharp." We could all hear her heart rate in the background getting slower and slower, and I yelled, "Just put me out. Just put me out."The pre-oxygenation mask went right onto my face, and the last thing I heard before I went out was, "Someone page the STAB team," which is the group of medical providers they call when they're assuming that a newborn is not going to be doing well. I woke up in a daze when I realized where I was and what had happened. I burst into tears again and asked, "Is she okay?"And she was perfect.They actually said she was screaming before they even pulled her out of me fully. Very strong and healthy baby Ellie. But another day that was supposed to be the happiest day of my life which instead was a day even worse than my first birth. I felt completely defeated, hating myself for all the time, effort, money, worry, hope, and mind space that I had put into something that I still didn't get. A few minutes after I woke up, the surgeon came up to me and said, "Your original scar did not heal right. It was defective, and because of the urgency of the situation, we had to cut through a higher area of your uterus so we wouldn't accidentally cut any arteries because the anatomy was obscured by the first scar. We realized while repairing the uterus that it was in the contractile tissue, and you will never be allowed to VBAC again."I didn't really care because I thought we were done having kids, or so I thought. But it made me feel really bad about myself hearing the words "defective", "obscure anatomy" and "not allowed" hung with me for a long time. I wanted to get out of that hospital as soon as I could. All I could think about was my failure and how all the feelings that were supposed to be fixed by this birth were only made worse at my follow- up appointments. At the 6-week check and the 12-week for IUD insertion, I had to actually be let out the back door both times so that the people in the waiting room wouldn't see me hysterically crying. I honestly didn't even want to go to these follow-up appointments because they just further cemented to me that I had failed. And I'm not someone who can be told that I can't. Even though I was for sure believing we were done having kids, I joined the Special Scars group on Facebook just to see if anyone had had a similar scar as mine.I didn't think we would have more kids, but I still wanted to know if I could. Unfortunately, over the past few years, I've only spoken with one other woman who had a similar scar as mine. The fact that it was so uncommon made me hate it even more because I couldn't find any answers about what it meant for me. I did seek counseling following these events, and eventually, I felt better but I still thought about what happened daily and could not stand to hear anything related to birth.Several months later, I started having pelvic pains. I went to be evaluated for an ovarian cyst, but when they didn't find one, they did see how crazy my first scar had healed. Because of the pain, they had agreed to do an exploratory laparotomy surgery to repair the scar thinking it could be the source of my pain and definitely a reason for the spotting I'd had between cycles. During the surgery, they found a large surgical hernia as well that they had to remove momentum from and recommended surgery to fix it in the future. Whatever the reason for the pain was the scar or the hernia, my pain was gone following the surgery and two weeks later we moved to Greenville, South Carolina. Everything seemed fine.Trying to settle into a new house that needs lots of fixing up with a one and a three-year-old takes time. I knew I didn't have an IUD in at that time, but my period hadn't come back yet since my one-year-old would not take to the weaning and I was still nursing her. I wasn't that worried.In August, my period did come back, and I decided to use ovulation strips to see how long after ovulating I was spotting to see if I could figure out if my cycles were in the normal range again. Strangely, the first strip showed up very dark along with the next several strips I tried and I was like, "Oh great, things are out-of-whack still." But that's when I remembered people sometimes interpreting ovulation strips for pregnancy since LH and HCG are such similar-shaped molecules. I decided to use one of the pregnancy strips that comes with the ovulation pack and sure enough, it was also darkly positive. I was inexplicably excited, and I sheepishly told my husband who was also very excited. We went to our eight-week appointment, and there was nothing on the ultrasound. My HCG was high, but the progesterone was low and they called it a blighted ovum. I eventually did pass whatever was in there. This left my husband and I with a new resolve to a third child and crossed the bridge of a third C-section when we got there. I started listening to The VBAC Link again-- something I had to erase from my memory in the past as it was another reminder of my failure to VBAC and not getting to submit my story of healing and success. There was an episode I got to where I really liked what one of the guests was saying. She was a doula named Sarah, and believe it or not, she was based out of Greenville.I knew that if we conceived again, she would be my doula.A year later, after a chemical pregnancy and a loss at 10 weeks, we conceived our second daughter, Leah. I had established care with the midwifery practice for the first few months until they saw my surgical records and transferred me to the OB practice across the street. Additionally, because I was 37 years old at this point, I was sent to maternal-fetal medicine for my 20-week anatomy scan to double-check that everything was looking normal, which it was.At my first appointment with the OB group, the doctor sat down across from me and said, "Well, your anatomy scan looks great. We will also do a growth scan at 32 weeks and 36 weeks because of your previous history of IUGR."And I said, "Sure, that's fine."He went on to say, "So you understand why the midwives transferred your care to us and that you're not allowed to have a vaginal birth, right?" By this point, I'd done some research on my birth rights, special scars, and hospital regulations, and answered calmly, "Actually, you can't tell me I'm not allowed to let something happen on its own. You're not allowed to force me to have a surgery that I do not consent to."He responded, "Well, I'm not sure anyone in this practice or any practice would be comfortable allowing you to VBAC."And I said, "Well, I'm not comfortable just going straight for a C-section at 36 weeks and not at least seeing how things go." I left the appointment pretty upset and even more determined to decide my own fate. As the appointments went by, each OB would say, "You understand that we would like you to schedule a C-section?"And I said, "Yes, but I'm not ready to make that decision yet. I'm still doing my research. What I have found is that the highest estimated rate of rupture after a classical scar is around 15%, but other studies estimate it to be much lower. Additionally, some studies don't distinguish between true rupture and dehiscence. Furthermore, most ruptures are not catastrophic, meaning loss of life, permanent disability, hysterectomy, and so on. Only about 2% of ruptures end this way, and they're often caught through monitoring or other symptoms before they can progress to anything beyond the risks of a typical C-section." Having done this research on my own, I became more confident in my decision to continue on the path of letting my body decide what it was going to do. Sarah, my doula, gave me more confidence. I had told her everything that had happened in my past and she said I had valid feelings and thoughts, and had made logical decisions based on my research.She sent me along her usual workbooks and resources for creating a birth plan, birthing positions, pain management, Spinning Babies, tea dates, etc. I told her I appreciated it, but I'm not going to do those things. I had done all those things and more and that had ended up being one of the hardest parts of my first repeat C-section having realized it made no difference at all. The last thing I wanted to do was spend time trying to be mindful and stretching instead of being mindful with my kids and family who were already there.This ended up being a decision I was very thankful to have made and Sarah was on board and fully understood my reasoning.Weeks went by. At every appointment, the OB would say, "It looks like you've been counseled on this before, and there's no need to go over everything again. Are you ready to schedule your C-section yet?" And I would say, "No, not yet."Looking back, they really didn't go over anything with me. All they said was because of my special scar and lower segment surgery, I was too high risk and not allowed to VBAC.I had done my own research and there are no actual numbers on a high transverse scar which is just above the lower segment, in the upper segment, or on the lower segment scar resection, which is what they classified my surgery as. I feel it's important to get these numbers as C-section rates continue to rise, more versions of special scars will occur and more people could possibly end up with scar revision surgeries before they're done growing their family.At my 37-week appointment, with some encouragement from Sarah, I finally got an OB who would talk to me about my options. She said, "I know we can't make you have surgery that you don't want. You're right. You're in a gray area. We don't really know the numbers for your kind of situation. I think it's reasonable for you to see what happens. If you show up in labor, we will admit you." And I was overcome with relief. Finally, someone was being honest with me. She knew I had done all my research and was overly informed of my rights. I told her that I just didn't want to be harassed or threatened if I came in because that would discourage me from coming in when I would have liked to which is right when labor started. She said I could come in as soon as I thought anything was going on and I would be treated with respect. Circling back to what I learned about EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, it basically says if a hospital wants to receive reimbursement from Medicare patients, they may not turn away anyone seeking treatment regardless of their citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.If a pregnant person arrives in active labor, they must be treated until the delivery is complete or a qualified medical personnel identifies that she's experiencing false labor.Furthermore, the person in labor can only be transferred if there's a hospital that can offer a higher level of care. The hospital I was going to was equipped to deliver VBAC and had a NICU. So I knew they were equipped to handle uterine ruptures, which they do about once a month, I've learned.I did agree to schedule a repeat C-section at 40 weeks and four days. At 40 weeks and one day, I got anxious and tried a half dose of what's recommended for kickstarting things with castor oil. It definitely kickstarted some things, and within about six hours, I was having contractions every four minutes.About two hours later, I was getting anxious to go to the hospital because they just didn't feel right. I felt them from my belly button down, and they didn't feel the same way. I remembered with the Pitocin, they weren't really crampy. They're more burning and sharp. I suddenly started feeling an urgency to get to the hospital so they could do the C-section. I texted Sarah to say, "We're going, but don't worry about coming just yet." My answer for why I had come to the L&D department was painful contractions. I already couldn't talk through them. I was hooked up to the monitors, and we could see that Leah was already having Cat 2 borderline Cat 3 decelerations.It's determined by how much the heart rate drops as a percentage of the baseline heart rate when not in a contraction. We tried some position changes, but I had already felt at peace with the idea of going back for a C-section, and my intuition told me it was time. I was extremely nervous to be strapped down, shaking uncontrollably, and not being able to enjoy my baby again.To my surprise, the spinal worked amazingly. I was calm, my husband was next to me, and I got to make all the decisions. I didn't feel pulling or pressure or tugging at all. It was the first time that I got to cry tears of joy after seeing my baby for the first time. I was informed that I'd had a small rupture and I had a very thin lower segment-like tissue about halfway up my uterus, which is not normal. I ruptured. It wasn't a big deal. We caught it. I knew something was wrong, and I had made the decisions that healed me, and I got my baby here safely. After my second was born, I remember sadly walking around our neighborhood, lost in the thought that I'd met all the important people in my life already and something was not sitting right with that. Never would I have ever imagined that a third C-section would heal everything.What I want people to take from my story is that you have to accept that you might not get your VBAC and work that into the process of attempting a VBAC. You can't put all your eggs in one basket for working towards that VBAC and ignoring the basket that needs some attention in case it doesn't happen.Making your own decisions and being confident in your reasoning makes all the difference. Yes, I did have a third C-section, but I know there's nothing I could have possibly done any differently that would have changed the outcome. I encourage people to do their own research, not just on rupture rates but on birth rights and patient rights.You cannot let your provider decide for you what they think is best for most patients because you're an individual and sometimes there isn't a perfect box to put you in.Your fate should not be determined by a doctor wanting to check a certain box and use that to make decisions that make themselves feel comfortable.Of course, ideally, you can find a supportive provider, but if you cannot, that does not mean that you can't call all the shots. You may rupture it, but it's not always, in fact, not usually some dramatic event. My most dramatic birth was before my special scar and surgery. So keep an open mind. Use the knowledge that you gained to instill confidence in yourself. Not getting your VBAC as a disappointment, but if you go in with the right mindset, it can be beautiful and meeting my third daughter was finally the happiest day of my life.Meagan: Oh, my goodness. I love hearing that. That whole end, I just closed my eyes and can hear you speak. And I was like, yes, all of these things are so, true. And I love that you point out that yes, you had a third C-section. Was it what you wanted in the beginning? Would you have wanted a vaginal birth? I'm sure you did. But, this is what I felt and you followed your intuition yet again. I feel like, along the story, but all stories of, intuition, intuition, intuition. And then hearing that you can have a healing experience. I think that is so important to point out that it can be healing. It can be absolutely healing. And I love that it was for you. I love that you were able to have your husband there and look back and be like, "No, I'm amazing." And you should be really proud of all the work you did, all the research you did advocating for yourself. It's not very easy to advocate for yourself. And I love the message that you gave to the other Women of Strength. Like, learn and advocate for yourself. Know the patient's rights.Chrissie: Yeah. Sarah: I think that's what was so unique and so awesome about your story, Chrissie, because even from  us starting to work together from the beginning, you just knew what you wanted, and you weren't afraid to say that. And you told me kind of like, "Hey, look, this is fine." Like you said, I gave you my packet and all of my welcome stuff for my normal clients. And you were like, "Look, I've done this before, and I know exactly what I want, and I know how I want to go forward with this birth." You were just so empowered and confident on your own, and I was just so excited to be along with you. And obviously, like, every birth doula wants to be there for the physical birth, but we also have to listen to our clients and respect their choices and decisions. When you were like, "Hey, we're going to the hospital, but don't come yet," it's hard to hear that. I was like, "Okay," but you knew exactly where you stood and what you want it. And, you know, I think that's just really awesome and amazing to have clients like you who are totally aware of, like Meagan was saying, your intuition and how you were feeling. So, you know, I think you have such an empowering story, and our stories can really go a long way, and you're gonna be that voice for people who are feeling so similar.Yeah, absolutely. It's hard to hear sometimes. Cause you're like, "That sounds so amazing. I would want to do that, but it can't." I think that's how a lot of people think. "Oh, that's good. She must have a strong personality." You don't have to have a strong personality to stand up and advocate for yourself in a lot of ways. I think a lot of it stemmed from you being informed along the way. You were informed. You knew your rights, you knew the evidence along things. I mean, here you are talking about them, and that's super important. It comes down with that education, because I do feel like the education is what helps us feel empowered enough to stand up and say what we do and don't want.Chrissie: I really don't have a strong personality at all. I was always very intimidated, trying to pump myself up for the next week of whatever week it was, visiting the OB practice, like, "Oh God, who am I going to see today?" But I just approached it with full knowledge of everything that's out there, as far as I know, because I've been researching it for a long time and just knowing my rights, I guess, I know that they know what they can and can't do to me.You can't force someone to have surgery if they're not ready for it. A C-section is a major surgery so I just knew to stand my ground in a polite and respectful way. Eventually, at the end of the wire, someone stood up for me in the practice, and I was very grateful for her because she gave me the last final push I needed to just wait for things to happen.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you should be so proud of yourself and I'm so happy for you.And how was this postpartum? How's it been?Chrissie: It's been like, nothing.I mean, I have a third newborn, but I don't for some reason with me, subsequent C-sections, the debilitating pain is not there from what I experienced with the first one. I don't know if there are just so many nerve endings that are not there anymore or I don't know why. It's been super busy. So I don't even have time to think about what could have been or any feeling or thoughts. Thoughts about how I wish I could be feeling differently. But, yeah, very busy with the third and just so happy to have her with us today.Well, I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. I'm glad that even though you maybe didn't have Sarah during your birth, you had her along the way because I truly do feel like having that sounding board in that doula and that support along pregnancy can really impact and motivate people to learn how to trust that intuition and learn what they need to do and what's right for them.Chrissie: Yes, and she's actually helped me since birth because I didn't ask her to come during it. She has come and hung out with my kids and me so I could do certain errands or tasks. Our kids are actually obsessed with each other now, so it's kind of nice. Yeah.Sarah: Yeah. We bonded even more postpartum and now our daughters are movie night buddies, and they all like to play together.Meagan: That is so fun. I love hearing that. That is something that I tell my clients when they hire me. I'm like, "Hey, listen, you do not have to be my best friend, but I want you to know that I'm your lifelong friend." I feel like that just right there sums it up. Like, really. No, not everybody's going to be having their kids play together but I love that relationships can form and create in this manner.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Okay, you too. Well, thank you again so much for being with us today.Chrissie: Thanks for picking my story.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

It's already 2025! What goals do you have for the year for yourself? For your property management business? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss their goals for 2025 and how they will impact property management business owners. You'll Learn [01:36] DoorGrow's Yearly Planning and Goals [07:30] DoorGrow in-Person Events in 2025 [13:05] The Future of Property Management: DoorGrow Live 2025 [16:11] DoorGrow's Commitment to Rescuing Dogs Tweetables  ”Strategic time invested in the business is what actually grows businesses.” “Most of y'all are focused so heavily on the tactical, the day-to-day tasks that just come at you and the business isn't moving forward.”  ”Broke people often have a broke mindset.” “You can do it. You just need a really good plan.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Most of y'all are focused so heavily on the tactical, the day to day tasks that just come at you and the business isn't moving forward.  [00:00:09] Welcome, DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:27] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:47] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management growth experts Jason Hull and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:07] Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:10] So today, we're going to be... [00:01:12] Sarah: It's new year's eve!  [00:01:13] Jason: It's new year's eve as we're recording this episode. So those of you watching us live, happy new year's. And those of you that are not, then I hope you had a happy new year, and you didn't like drink too much and you are like ready to go for the new year. [00:01:28] So we're going to be talking about the new year. What are we going to chat about today?  [00:01:33] Sarah: I thought we were going to talk about where we want to go.  [00:01:36] Jason: Yeah. So we're going to tell you a little bit about what's up with DoorGrow. We do our annual planning in the middle of the year. We offset it by two quarters. [00:01:45] We find that to be a lot more effective. So we actually coach our clients to do the same. Why? Because this time of year, everybody's a little bit too focused on other stuff, holidays, family, all good things, right? And not as focused, maybe, on the business. [00:02:00] Sarah: Can you imagine if today was the deadline for all of your big annual goals? [00:02:05] Like, man, we gotta do that one thing! Today's the last day. Hard push, guys! Everyone's like, "..." [00:02:10] Jason: Or just even this whole month of December or even like Thanksgiving time. Like just trying to push your end of the year goals and trying to achieve as a team, your team are like, "cool. I'm glad you are motivated, Mr. Business Owner, but..."  [00:02:24] Sarah: "I'm taking two weeks off for Christmas, and I'm off for Thanksgiving, I'm taking time off for Christmas, I'm taking time off for New Year's." [00:02:31] Jason: "That's cool, you want to hit that end of the year revenue goal, or sales goal, or whatever your goals are, but I need to figure out what to get my Aunt Susie for Christmas, and who's bringing what for Thanksgiving." [00:02:43] Sarah: "I'm cooking, and I'm cleaning." [00:02:44] Jason: And, "what party am I going to for New Year's? Who am I going to kiss at midnight?" Like, it's hard stuff. That being said, some of the goals we have for 2025 I think one of the things we've really put a lot of attention into over the last three, four years, maybe even longer is just making our program better and better. [00:03:05] We've just added a lot to the program, like focusing on decreasing churn, keeping our coaching clients longterm improving systems. We just rolled out some cool stuff, our client workbooks. What are some of the things we've done in the last year? We rolled out this new Accountability Sales Tracker. [00:03:19] We rolled out, you know... [00:03:20] Sarah: all kinds of client workbooks content...  [00:03:23] Jason: new courses,  [00:03:23] Sarah: operations revamp.  [00:03:25] Jason: DoorGrow, we get a lot done. Part of that is because of DoorGrow OS and our planning process. It allows us to really focus on Goals and outcomes, strategic growth of the business instead of just tactical day to day work. [00:03:38] And strategic time invested in the business is what actually grows businesses. Most of y'all, because I've talked to thousands of property managers, most of y'all are focused so heavily on the tactical, the day to day tasks that just come at you and the business isn't moving forward. So our goal for this year, because we've got a really good program, we're getting great results. [00:03:59] We're keeping clients for a decent time now. You know, we even got rid of over the last several years, we got rid of any sort of annual contract. A lot of vendors like DoorGrow have annual agreements or whatever. We got rid of those because we could keep clients longer than a year. And so we didn't need that. [00:04:16] Like it increases the risk of people wanting to like get on board with us. So we're like, let's lower the risk to come on board with us, prove ourselves and just keep them. So the next goal for us really at DoorGrow is to focus on lead generation. That game has changed so much over the last decade plus that we've been in business. [00:04:37] We've used LinkedIn to get business for a while through automation. We used our Facebook group and we've used organic stuff through SEO. Like we've used a lot of different strategies and we still have several things going at a time, but the game always changes. And so lead gen is something where we're shifting our focus. [00:04:57] As you focus on the business, we've got our six core functions, lead gen, nurture, conversion, delivery, lifetime value, pricing, retention, et cetera. And then financial finances. And so we're shifting our focus every year towards what's weakest. Where does our attention... yeah. [00:05:17] Sarah: Every quarter, we're like, "okay, Hey, we solved that problem. Now we have this whole other problem.  [00:05:22] Jason: So our weakest thing right now is probably lead generation. Like we've got a lot of tools for nurture. This podcast or newsletter. We've got lots of content on YouTube. Yeah. Nurture's strong.  [00:05:35] Sarah: Yeah. [00:05:36] Jason: Delivery and fulfillment is strong. Conversion, like we're pretty good at conversion.  [00:05:40] Sarah: Hassan follows up with people like crazy. He's just on top of it. He's done everything.  [00:05:45] Jason: So lead gen, we've been getting a lot of leads, you know, through Facebook ads and through our Facebook group where we funnel people to, but we're getting a lot of unqualified leads. [00:05:54] Like basically there's a lot of startup property managers that are broke and don't have money and we can help them with that stuff if they're willing to invest. But broke people often have a broke mindset. So if you're listening and you're not growing, you're probably not investing any money towards growth. [00:06:10] Like who are you paying to coach you or teach you or help you figure out how to grow? If you're not paying somebody, you're selling yourself short. And we eat our own dog food. How many masterminds am I in right now? I don't know, two, three? [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know. You just added another one.  [00:06:24] Jason: Yeah, but they're for different areas of the business. [00:06:26] And and we leverage them and allow the team to leverage them and to make sure that we're always innovating or getting new ideas and moving things forward.  [00:06:35] Sarah: Think the answer is four.  [00:06:36] Jason: I think I'm in four different masterminds right now. Yeah. We're in plenty. So, yeah. So, and yeah we've got two online programs that we're in right now related to just leads. [00:06:49] Oh, I wasn't counting those.  [00:06:50] Ads. So we've got access to at least, you know, at least two focused on lead gen. So we're going to be putting our attention and focus this year on lead generation. Like how do we attract more property managers that are struggling, that want to grow, or that are struggling with being able to scale their operations and adding doors is causing a problem for them? [00:07:14] These are problems we solve and we're really good at solving it. So we're going to be shifting our lead gen from just like, "Hey, are you a property manager? Join our free Facebook group and then we'll give you free stuff." We're going to shift it more towards, "Hey, do you have these particular challenges we want to help?" [00:07:28] So that's going to be our focus this year.  [00:07:30] Sarah: I also want to focus on doing some cool events this year.  [00:07:33] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:33] Sarah: Those are so fun for me. I love that. Like even our jumpstart events.  [00:07:37] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:38] Sarah: It's a whole day, so it's a lot. Like I am tired afterwards, but I walk away feeling really fulfilled I walk away... [00:07:45] Explain what a jumpstart event is  [00:07:46] ...and I just feel like we just changed the trajectory of people's lives and businesses. [00:07:52] Jason: Yeah, they're powerful. Explain what a jumpstart is for those that are like, what's that? Yeah.  [00:07:56] Sarah: What's a jumpstart session? So the jumpstart session is available for our mastermind clients. They're held here in the North Austin, Texas area, and they're a one day deep dive into the business. So, there's no pre selected topics. [00:08:08] Sometimes I get, "well, what are we going to talk about?" I don't know, what do you need in your business? What are the problems? What are your challenges? What are you working on? What has not been working for you? You know, what questions might you have that you're like, "man, I just, I know I can do this better. I just don't know how." That's what we're going to talk about. So whatever it is. We've done a couple of them we've done pricing. Some of them have been focused on sales. Some of them have been focused more on the back end, like delivery and team operations.  [00:08:37] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:38] Sarah: So they're different every single time and we never know what we're going to talk about really until we get there and we start diving in and we start asking questions. [00:08:48] So, they're usually smaller events. I like to keep them small because if they get too big, it's hard to go really deep into a business if there's like 20 businesses in the room. Now it's not a deep dive. Now it's just, we're going to talk about some stuff. So we keep them generally pretty small. [00:09:03] There are usually about like three, maybe four businesses there. And it's like a one day deep dive. We do break, we get some really good tacos. We go for lunch and then we dive right back into it. But every single time people walk away with an action plan, they walk away knowing what to do. We update our client workbooks. [00:09:22] So they get a lot of clarity and then we wanted to mimic that, but build on it and do this a little bit in a more robust way. So we're actually hosting an event. This is open to anyone who wants to join. It will be called Thrive 2025 because as we're talking with people, we're realizing we're at the end of the year. [00:09:44] The clock is about to reset. Some people, they have an idea of what they want to do, but they don't know how the hell they're actually going to get there. So, we're going to get into the nitty gritty and help them figure out, well, what is your plan? What are your goals? And then, how are you going to get there? [00:10:01] What are the things that you need to do? And by what time frame do you actually need to do them? So that you can hit this goal that you're trying to hit in all of 2025. So at this event, we're not just planning for like, "Hey, here's what you're going to do for maybe the next month or the next couple of weeks." [00:10:18] "Here's what your 2025 is going to look like, and here's the entire roadmap for your 2025." So that you can be on track and hit the goals that you're looking to hit so that you don't have another year where you're like, "man, it just didn't happen again. I just don't know what's going on. Maybe I'll just never do it." [00:10:38] You can do it. You just need a really good plan. You need a solid plan put together. So we're going to spend the day with a room of property managers. We're going to brainstorm. We're going to create some goals, figure out what is it that you really want for your business? Why do you want it? [00:10:53] And then, what are the action steps that you need to take so that you can get there? So this essentially is going to write the business plan for your business for 2025. And we're going to do that in a really cool place. It's going to be in Nashville.  [00:11:07] Jason: Yeah, we're going to take you through a bit of our planning process the way we do this at DoorGrow I really think this is the technology that has allowed us to surpass any other coaches in the space it's our planning and it's the planning process gets our team in alignment It gets them out of that transactional sort of leadership system. [00:11:28] It gets them focusing on objectives. It gets them functioning more like like intrapreneurs, instead of just waiting to be told what to do. And if you're frustrated and always having to tell your team what to do and always having to answer all their questions, you have a transactional leadership system because that's the least risky thing for them to do is to let you do all the thinking and decision making. [00:11:48] So when we start focusing on a team, figuring out what is the business need? What are the objectives to like brainstorm as a team? And you're the last to speak as a visionary or the people that are running the business and you get feedback, real feedback from your team who are on the front lines, who know what challenges they're running into, then we can start to innovate as a company. [00:12:09] Then they start to focus on those outcomes and they start to move things forward. And so we're going to take you through that process. And come up with a plan. So we're going to spend a day and just dig in. And this will be a game changer for you and your business. So we're going to have a small group. [00:12:24] How many are we allowing to come to this?  [00:12:26] Sarah: There's going to be eight spots total. And some of them are already spoken for.  [00:12:30] Jason: Okay. Eight businesses.  [00:12:32] Sarah: Eight spots.  [00:12:33] Jason: Eight people.  [00:12:34] Sarah: Eight. Yep. Eight human beings. So, a business might just have one person.  [00:12:39] Jason: Or bring a plus one. It can bring a plus one. Yeah. Okay.  [00:12:43] Sarah: Two, two max. [00:12:44] Because if someone goes, Oh, I have three people. So it might only be four businesses. Four people. Like now that's really.  [00:12:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:12:50] Sarah: It's hard then, because it takes up so many spots.  [00:12:52] Jason: So we're going to be doing events as another goal for the year.  [00:12:56] Sarah: Yep. Yeah, so we're going to kick it off with right in January Thrive 2025. [00:12:59] Jason: If you're listening this podcast later on like iTunes or something then you probably missed it, but we'll have other stuff.  [00:13:05] Sarah: But don't worry because we have our DoorGrow live event coming up. [00:13:08] Jason: Okay, that's another event So we've got DoorGrow live coming up. You want to talk about DoorGrow Live?  [00:13:13] Sarah: Yeah, let's talk about DoorGrow Live. So that is going to be a Friday and Saturday. It's May 16th and 17th. And you'll want to make sure that you come in on the 15th because that Thursday, the day before from 7pm to 9pm, we're doing a mixer. [00:13:27] So we're doing some networking. You'll meet the DoorGrow team. You'll meet a lot of other business owners and property managers, and we're going to have some live entertainment. So you're going to get to see some dancers. We're going to have a singer. It's going to be a good time. So make sure that you travel in the day before, attend the mixer. [00:13:46] And then this year we're talking about innovating the future of property management. So we want to talk about where is this whole industry going? Because things change really quickly, especially with all of the developments in AI. So things can change really quickly. So we're going to have some great speakers there. [00:14:07] You can go actually right now. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com and you can get all of the event details. You can book your rooms at the discounted room rate that we've negotiated with the venue for you. It's at Kalahari Resorts in Round Rock, Texas. And you can check out some of the speakers that are going to be there at the event. Every year we do one of these we always try to make it a little bigger a little better, and this year is no exception We've got some great stuff planned.  [00:14:39] Jason: You know, I think a lot of people are burnt out on conferences. A lot of you maybe have gone to a lot of events and conferences. But there's something special and different about DoorGrow Live. [00:14:49] I've been to a lot of different events as well. And there's just something special and different about DoorGrow Live. And one, we're creating a lot of momentum for property managers too. I think we're a lot more holistic in our approach. We're not just focused on property management. All of y'all know plenty about property management, but what I find is usually what's holding you back in business is not even related to business, it's everything else going on. And that's why we take a much more holistic approach. And so we're going to benefit you in a lot of different ways. Like people walk away from these events and become better people. That's our goal. And so, and better people have better businesses and better families and make more money and more contribution and make a bigger difference. [00:15:33] So, so get your tickets to DoorGrow Live. That's coming up as well. And any other events?  [00:15:39] Sarah: Well, there's this secret one that we haven't talked about yet. When we were in Mexico, we were talking about it.  [00:15:45] Jason: Okay, well I guess we're not talking about today 'cause it's a secret . So, so sorry, everybody. [00:15:51] All right. So something cool is coming. All right, so we've got events coming up and then so what other goals do we have for DoorGrow? Those are kind of the key ones for us internally. It's lead gen. Yeah. Yeah. It is going to be our focus, so.  [00:16:04] Sarah: I want to just find it to help more people and [00:16:07] Yeah. [00:16:07] I don't care what that looks like.  [00:16:08] Jason: It doesn't  [00:16:09] Sarah: even matter what it looks like, really, so. Oh, and then my, I have some personal goals, too, I'm going to help more dogs. We're going to save more dogs this year. Jason's going to kill me, probably. I might be divorced by the end of the year. Hopefully not.  [00:16:22] Jason: I will not kill her. [00:16:22] Sarah: What's the number of dogs that we can get before we talk about divorce?  [00:16:28] Jason: Is this, like...? [00:16:29] Sarah: On the pod, we're going to record it, yeah. So, like, what's the number? Because we're at three right now. We just rescued enough.  [00:16:35] Jason: There's no amount of dogs that would make me divorce you. There's plenty of other things you could do that would probably lead towards that, but it's not a dog thing. [00:16:44] Sarah: So we're going to have 99 dogs.  [00:16:46] Jason: We just adopted. Yesterday, we officially just adopted our third dog, who was a foster. We had for, what, a month? And then...  [00:16:55] Sarah: we had him for a month.  [00:16:56] Jason: And then he got adopted. We got him adopted.  [00:16:58] Sarah: We did our job.  [00:16:59] Jason: We took him to farmer's markets and places and we met somebody at one of the things we took him to and got him adopted. [00:17:06] Sarah: And it was a great situation for him. We were super sad because he's such a great dog. He's so perfect for him. And then when we dropped him off, I was just I was crying. I was a mess.  [00:17:15] Jason: Yeah, it was, that was hard.  [00:17:16] Sarah: I was so sad.  [00:17:17] Jason: He's just like the sweetest dog ever. Like, he's so, like, loving, he just loves everyone, like, well, loves us, not everyone. [00:17:24] And yeah, so we got him adopted and then they took him back to the animal shelter.  [00:17:30] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:31] Jason: Which is sad. I guess.  [00:17:33] Sarah: Husband wasn't really on board.  [00:17:34] Jason: Husband wasn't really on board with it. No. The wife had adopted him and.  [00:17:37] Sarah: She got him while he was in Florida like. He was out of town. Rebuilding houses from the storm. [00:17:43] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:43] Sarah: And he was like, yeah, babe, go ahead. And he comes home and there's this dog.  [00:17:47] Jason: I'm coming to Texas. And he's like, I don't know if I like this dog. Yeah. Hans doesn't like new people, so he was probably like a little iffy about him, and it probably just didn't go well. I don't know.  [00:17:57] Sarah: Well, he let me know that it wasn't going to work out, so I said, okay, bring him back, and we'll foster him again, and in fostering him again, we both just, we knew we can't, we just can't, we can't give him up.  [00:18:12] Jason: So we're on number three. If we keep doing this fostering, we may end up with 20 dogs eventually. We'll need to buy land and a farm for dogs.  [00:18:21] Sarah: Y'all heard it. He said there is no amount of dogs.  [00:18:25] Jason: I'm not going to divorce you over dogs.  [00:18:26] Sarah: He said there's no amount of dogs. [00:18:27] So this is recorded. I have video evidence  [00:18:30] Jason: that doesn't mean I'm going to allow any number of dogs. There's only so many we can handle. Do you like taking trips? You like taking trips?  [00:18:37] Sarah: I do, but that's... [00:18:38] we're not boarding 20 dogs. [00:18:40] No, we just need a farm. Need a farm. [00:18:43] Need some volunteers. We'll start a nonprofit.  [00:18:47] Jason: Okay.  [00:18:47] Sarah: Get some people to help out. I'm going to save all dogs.  [00:18:50] Jason: This is Sarah's goal for 2025.  [00:18:54] Sarah: We'll have buses full of dogs. And he's not going to leave me, so that's great.  [00:18:58] Jason: God help me.  [00:19:00] Sarah: Seriously.  [00:19:00] Jason: Please, protect me from this woman and all of her dogs, so. Okay, so that's it. [00:19:07] That's our goals for DoorGrow. What are your goals? Figure them out. Let us know inside our Facebook group. You can go there by going to doorgrowclub.com . And let us know what your goals are for the year. And if you would like some help, we would love to help you with your goals. You know what your default future is. [00:19:25] You know what you achieved last year. You know what you achieved the year before that. And if you're anything like the majority of the property managers I've talked to over the last decade, your results probably aren't super great and you're probably not super excited about it. And you're probably getting a little bit burnt out on your business. [00:19:43] And you probably do not want to keep doing things the way that you're doing it for the next year or the next five years. And so if you would like to have a different year this year than you had last year. Like a great year, like things really going well, like adding a lot of doors, getting a team that actually makes your life easy and you feel like you can just take vacations and step away and the business works swimmingly well, then reach out to us. Reach out to us. This is stuff that we're helping clients do all the time, and you would be amazed how much we can get accomplished even in your initial jumpstart session as a new client, but certainly within the first 90 days, we are changing lives, and we would love to change yours. [00:20:26] We love getting to do this. We just we want to help more people and reach out to us. Have a conversation. We're expensive. Yeah. Not going to lie, like we're expensive, right? But we help you make so much money that you're not going to be worried about the expense. So that's the goal.  [00:20:43] Sarah: What's this, what's the, I don't know what it's called, but there's this framework where you have good, you have cheap, and you have fast and you can never have all three. [00:20:51] Jason: You can only pick two.  [00:20:52] Sarah: There's only two. There's no combination in this world of anything. No product, no service, no nothing that's good and cheap and fast.  [00:21:00] Jason: Yeah. [00:21:00] Sarah: So  [00:21:01] Jason: Yep.  [00:21:01] Sarah: So figure out which one you want to sacrifice, right?  [00:21:04] Jason: Reach out to us. You can check us out at DoorGrow. com and until next time to our mutual growth and happy new year. [00:21:10] Bye everyone. [00:21:10] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:37] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Owning a business of any kind impacts your life and relationships. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts talk about marriage, relationships, and how these things correlate with having a property management business. You'll Learn [02:03] Owning a business impacts your relationships [07:45] You have to be selfish sometimes [11:10] Why people pleasing is harmful [14:13] Masculine and Feminine frames [24:51] Leveling up in business and your relationships Tweetables “In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.” “I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it.” “If you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people.” “Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody,  the less they value you.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:29] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS. Build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow.  [00:01:11] Now Let's get into the show.  [00:01:14] All right, so today's topic, we're going to chat a little bit about marriage. So let's talk about it. We're going to tell a little bit about marriage. Those that have followed my journey over the years have probably seen that I've been divorced. I've gone through struggles in marriage. I've learned things the hard way. Some of y'all probably been married forever like my parents. I have amazing parents and they were a great example of just loving each other from the beginning forever. [00:01:44] They've been married for, I don't know, like 50 years or something.  [00:01:48] Sarah: Almost. 49.  [00:01:50] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think  [00:01:52] Sarah: this year is going to be 47. So they're like going to be 50.  [00:01:55] Jason: I think they got married two years before they had me. So yeah.  [00:01:58] Sarah: They celebrate it though, but they're still in Australia.  [00:02:01] Jason: Yeah. So my parents, they just love each other. [00:02:03] But one of the things that I think it's been coming up a lot, I've been noticing a lot of clients as I go deeper with them and they kind of open up especially the guys like relationships are a struggle. It's a challenge. I think it's difficult. It can be difficult for entrepreneurs. I think it's difficult for the women entrepreneurs because in a lot of ways you have to kind of step into sort of a masculine frame to run a business. And that creates an interesting dynamic in a relationship. And this is in general. Some women out there, maybe you don't want a masculine guy. Maybe you don't want a guy that leads. Maybe you don't want a guy that initiates stuff. Maybe you don't want to be able to let your hair down after work and like have him kind of take the reins and like plan something and take you on a date. I think a lot of women do. A lot of women appreciate that. Even the ones that are running businesses and showing up in a masculine sort of frame and being kind of dominant in leadership and displaying these things, they would like to have somebody else take the lead. Is this accurate do you think or no?  [00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, well. You think it's different.  [00:03:05] Jason: You've run your own business. [00:03:06] You've been kind of in that frame.  [00:03:08] Sarah: I'm a very masculine woman.  [00:03:11] Jason: Yeah, in some ways I think you've consistently since we've been together.  [00:03:15] Sarah: I look very feminine. I do it's deceiving. Yeah.  [00:03:19] Jason: Yeah, I think since we've been together, you've consistently stepped more and more into your feminine and I've stepped more and more into my masculine I think has kind of been a trend. [00:03:29] Would you say that's accurate?  [00:03:30] Sarah: It could be. I don't know. I think you've probably more recently been focused on that. I can't say, I really cannot say, oh, I've ever been focused on.  [00:03:41] Jason: I don't think you've been focused on it. I just think.  [00:03:44] Sarah: I'm just living life.  [00:03:45] Jason: Yeah, you're just living life and this is the thing. [00:03:48] Sarah: I'm just going about shit, doing my thing.  [00:03:50] Jason: She's not as conscious of it probably because I think this is something that men, if you are the leader and leading, you should be conscious of this. And women, when men are kind of taking that leadership role, women respond to that, and it's natural. Like, I've noticed it in Sarah, she's not even probably super aware of it, but there's behaviors and things that have kind of shifted. [00:04:15] And so, the way it'll show up for a woman in this, in a relationship like that, as a man stepping more into leadership and into his masculine role, she will generally, over time, feel calmer. There'll be probably less fights, probably less explosions, you know, things like this. And the guy will be like letting go of some of the needy, whiny, pleasy, weak behavior that's kind of gross to women. [00:04:39] Does this sound accurate?  [00:04:40] Sarah: That is, yeah, that is gross.  [00:04:42] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:42] Sarah: To me, anyway, I cannot speak for all women.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:45] Sarah: To me, it's gross.  [00:04:47] Jason: Ironically, when women are showing up kind of more in a masculine frame, they sometimes bring that out in guys. Like the guys think, Oh no, there's a problem. I got to please more. [00:04:57] And so it kind of creates this weird, gross spiral in relationship. And so, which I've experienced in past relationships. Right. And so the man needs to kind of. shift and lead out of that. And so I've been noticing this in clients. And so, this is something that I've been paying a lot of attention to. [00:05:14] A lot of guys show up in a feminine frame because we've been raised by our moms. Maybe you had a loving mom. She took care of you. Maybe she didn't. And she wasn't really a great mom, maybe but either way, that feminine influence towards pleasing has a strong impact on the male psyche, which puts us into kind of a growing up with kind of a feminine frame. If we don't have a really strong sort of masculine walled stoic father, you know, and there's really great book I would recommend for men that want to kind of eliminate that feminine frame that they're carrying around. [00:05:49] It's called shattering the feminine frame by Jerr, J E R R. It's really hard to find, so you may have to search for it on Google, because if you search for it on Amazon, even though it's there, Amazon won't let you see it. I don't know why. It's super weird. You may not be able to find it. Sometimes searches on some of the books by Jerr don't show up when I search for them. [00:06:11] His main book that he puts out there, I can find, and then I have to go to the author, click on the author name, and then find his other books to find some of these books. I don't, it's really weird, but you might be able to find it through Google.  [00:06:23] Sarah: Maybe it's just you. It could be just you. It'd be an interesting test. [00:06:27] Maybe everybody else, even though.  [00:06:30] Jason: I bought multiple copies of the book and sent them to guys. So Jason gets blocked on everything. He gets himself blocked. I'm a little controversial. I get shadow banned all the time. It was something. I was definitely shadow banned on Twitter. My accounts aren't working, your whole Instagram account. [00:06:45] I have a political account on Instagram that's totally blocked and shut down. Like, I log into it, it blocks everything. I can't do anything. I can't even go to settings to, like, request help to support. Nothing. So, yeah. So, which probably might be why I can't find which probably means my ideas are actually correct. [00:07:04] So since we live in a world of control and censorship nowadays, all right, so that aside, so I think you know, to kill that needy sort of pleasing behavior, I think guys, this is really important. And it's important in business too, because in business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner. [00:07:30] And that was something you were very good at not doing in your property management  [00:07:34] Sarah: business. I don't give a shit about that at all. I [00:07:37] Jason: think you're like, what do I want my business to look like? How do I want to show? Yeah. Yeah.  [00:07:42] Sarah: Right. And I think it's, It, part of it is very selfish. And I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it. [00:07:54] Now I am not sitting here telling you, be only selfish and only think about yourself all the time. No matter what, prioritize you and forget everything else, right? That is not what I'm saying, but there is a time and a place to be selfish and to really think about you. And if you think about it this way, there's a lot of people, like one of my, one of my very good friends in Pennsylvania she will just give and give and give and give to everybody. [00:08:21] She worries about her kids and she worries about her friends and she worries about her family and she worries about, it's like, she's like, so giving and like, I mean, she would literally give you the coat off of her back in the middle of winter if you needed it. I have watched her do it. And that is great. [00:08:42] However, if you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people. And I tell her that all the time because she's just in this constant exhaustion. Like now it's manifesting physically. Now she's had like, she had health issues. She had like a heart problem. [00:09:02] She had all kinds of issues and it's because she's not prioritizing herself. She will go to do something for herself, but then something else pops up and needs her attention. And she's like, Oh, well, I can't worry about me. Now, I have to worry about this other thing. So there is a time and a place to be selfish, and you must take care of yourself first in order to then serve and take care of other people. [00:09:22] It's like, put on your own oxygen mask before helping other people. Because if you die trying to help your family, well now your family doesn't have you. When you could have just put on your own oxygen mask first. Yes? So there is a time and a place to be selfish. I think in my later years, especially after my, like, my divorce when I was, what was I, 28? [00:09:48] Yeah, I was 28. So, 28, I flipped my entire life upside down. All of it. Everything. I pretty much scrapped it all. Anything that wasn't serving me, anything that was toxic, anything that wasn't good for me, anything that didn't make me feel happy or bring me joy or make me feel loved and cared for, I said, fuck it. [00:10:10] Gone. Gone. So I cut off relationships with my biological father. I ended my marriage. I cut off a lot of friendships. I quit my job. I did all kinds of things. I was like, yeah, this isn't working like, and that was the end of it. But that was very much about, that was for me. I did that for me. [00:10:30] And up until that point, I wasn't really living for me. Yes, I was concerned about myself. I was always trying to take care of myself. But I was also always worried, Oh, well, who needs this? And who needs that? And, oh, you know, this person, you know, is kind of, it's always like in the back of your brain. [00:10:48] And after, after that, I made that change and that after that point was when I started my business, when I started my business, I'm glad that I didn't do this before I had that shift in my life because when I started my business, number one has to be me. If the business makes me miserable, then I'm doing something wrong. [00:11:07] So why do it like that?  [00:11:10] Jason: A lot of people are miserable in their businesses. They like, we see a lot of them. That's why a lot of people come to us. We can turn that around. Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody, the less they value you. And so if you're like just bending over backwards trying to please tenants, they're going to treat you even more and more like garbage because you're showcasing and demonstrating in your language your behavior everything, "I'm low value." [00:11:37] I'm a doormat. Walk all over me. You might do that with owners. You might be displaying, Hey, I'm low value. I'm available whenever you need me. Your time is so much more important than my time. Interrupt me anytime. Here's my cell phone number. Right? And so by displaying that you're low value, you actually end up being treated worse and being perceived as worse. [00:11:58] And people respect business owners that are leaders and then are able to display strong behavior that they can lean into and that they can trust. You need to have a stronger frame or a more masculine frame if you are the leader of a business. Otherwise, people are not going to really trust, respect, or feel safe with you. [00:12:18] And so I think that Also, when we're in relationship and we're with somebody and I think that this is probably more true of women, a lot of women might throw me some shade for saying this, but as guys, I don't know what the major difference is. Maybe it's testosterone levels, whatever. Maybe it's just in our DNA, but we do not grow up feeling fear. [00:12:41] We just, we don't generally feel afraid of a whole lot of things. Like, most guys would never even think, like, am I safe if I go walk out on the street? Unless they're in a really shitty area, you know? But if I go out for a walk, I'm not concerned about my safety at all. I could roll down my windows and take a nap in my car, parked by the side of the road, and wouldn't even worry. [00:13:03] Women, I didn't realize this until later years, but women from.  [00:13:08] Sarah: Even going like for a walk by myself, no way, I'm taking my pitbull, like  [00:13:12] Jason: Yes.  [00:13:13] Sarah: Or I'm carrying.  [00:13:15] Jason: Right. Or some combination.  [00:13:18] Sarah: Something. There's no, there's no chance. Yeah,  [00:13:21] Jason: I mean even if I'm out of town, for example You'd like you get a little bit more concerned about things and your safety and stuff like that, right? [00:13:30] Sarah: See, I'm the type of person I'm like, I want like a fortress. I want like reinforced concrete like five inch, you know, like, maybe even 11 inch thick, like, walls, I want, like, a moat, I also like some sharks that we don't feed, like, ever, and then, you know, somebody might accidentally fall down. [00:13:49] I've been getting in, like, this is how I'm like, that would make me feel safe. I want like bulletproof glass. Give me the Cybertruck glass just everywhere. Like, that's like, this is what I need. I need like laser beams, like you see in museums. Like motion sensor laser beams that trigger like the SWAT team. [00:14:06] That's what I need, but I've watched way too many horror movies, admittedly, way too many for my own good.  [00:14:13] Jason: So regardless of your gender, masculine and feminine energy is always at play. And, Feminine energy generally is not going to feel safe without masculine energy nearby. [00:14:24] That's just generally how it works. Masculine energy creates that protection and safety. This will be true of your clients. So you'll need to show up somewhat in a masculine frame so that your clients can feel safe. feel safe with you. And that's what they want to buy. They don't want to buy property management, but they want to buy a safety and certainty. [00:14:40] They want to buy peace of mind. And so that certainty that you can display is more of a masculine energy or masculine frame. This is true of women that are in relationships. If they're not getting that from the man that they're with or around them, That sort of masculine frame, they're going to become, a lot of times, they become more nervous, more neurotic. [00:14:59] They're more concerned about things and more fearful. And especially if they have to then step into the masculine frame to take care of the guy that they're with because he's even more needy and pleasy and whatever and feminine than she is, then it's like, it creates this gross sort of I'm your mother type of dynamic, right? [00:15:17] And you don't want to be my mother, right? You don't want to be cleaning up after me and telling me what to do all the time.  [00:15:22] Sarah: I don't want to be anybody's mom.  [00:15:24] Jason: Yeah, exactly.  [00:15:24] Sarah: I am not cut out to be a mom, let's be honest. I'm just not, I'm just not good. Like my mom is the best mom in the world and then like, how do I measure up to that? [00:15:34] Like I can't compete with that.  [00:15:35] Jason: Well, I don't think it's a competition.  [00:15:37] Sarah: Everything is a competition.  [00:15:39] Jason: It's not really. [00:15:39] Sarah: You know nothing about me.  [00:15:41] Jason: It's not really competition. You don't need to compete with your mom, but you can take, you know, some of the good that you've got from her and the stuff that you don't want to apply or we learn from our parents. [00:15:51] We don't want to be like. We don't have to take that. Right. So, you know, I guess the takeaway from this episode maybe is men, check out that book, like step into a little bit more masculine role in your relationships, your wife will be calmer, she'll be more loving, you will definitely get more respect and you'll get more sex if you're showing up in a masculine frame. And it's your responsibility. Stop trying to change her. Stop trying to get her to be something different. Stop wishing she was nicer to you. Stop trying to focus on I need love and I need to please her and do things like that like Show up in a confident leadership position, like plan stuff, plan dates. [00:16:35] We're going on a date this weekend, right? We went on a date last weekend.  [00:16:40] Sarah: Round two.  [00:16:40] Jason: I messed up last weekend. I planned a date. I was so excited and took her out to eat. We went to go to where the date was, we were supposed to go watch a show. And it was closed, like, there was nothing there. And I was like, what? [00:16:54] And I checked and I had the date wrong. I had the date wrong. So what did I do as a leader? I found another date. So I quickly booked tickets, found tickets to a comedy show that was right there, downtown Austin. And then we went to that and we had a good time, right?  [00:17:08] Sarah: Well, that was when I rescued the bird. [00:17:09] Jason: Yes.  [00:17:10] Sarah: So here, let's talk about this. This is how crazy my life is. Jump out of a moving car because my husband wouldn't stop the car.  [00:17:16] Jason: Let's, let me explain this. I'm driving into a parking lot, there is a bird that has landed on my hood and it's just staying on there so I'm like, this is weird and I'm turning into a parking structure and I was barely moving. [00:17:30] I was slowed down or you would have hurt yourself but I'm like, she's like, I'm going to get out and I'm going to take care of the bird and because it had jumped off. And I was like, No.  [00:17:37] Sarah: It didn't. It tried to fly, like, it was on the hood. And it tried to fly a little bit and it, like, barely cleared, like, the roof of the car and I went, Jason, that bird is injured, I'm telling you, it's injured and he's like, okay. [00:17:51] And I'm like, stop the car, and he's like, what? I'm like, no, stop the car. I was like, I am not stopping the car. Yeah, he's like, I'm not stopping.  [00:17:57] Jason: There were, like, homeless people on the street, like, right outside there. Yeah, I know. Ghettos, they probably were all high on drugs, like, it was not a great area. [00:18:06] And she jumps out of the car and I have to then find a parking space because there's nowhere to park and I had to go up seven floors in this parking structure. I'm like, my wife is probably going to be dead by now, right? So I eventually get to the top floor, then I come down, I'm, like, so anxious because I'm, like, I need to protect this woman from her crazy bird saving, like, whatever. [00:18:27] Sarah: And actually, I had this dress on. And my high heels, and I'm running around trying to, like, scoop up. I'm like, it's okay, try to scoop the bird. And the bird, like, it can't really fly. It flew a little bit for, like, a couple feet, and then it, like, sank back down. And I'm like, oh no, it's injured. So I'm, like, chasing the bird, and the bird, like, hops around. [00:18:45] Like, it comes out of the parking garage, and it hops around to the corner. I don't know what's back there. So I'm just following, I'm like, come here, bird. And there's a man in the corner. who I can only think, my guess is, like, coke, I don't know. I don't know what he's doing, it's, I don't know, crack, whatever crack is, it's probably that. [00:19:03] So, I don't know, I'm not a drug expert, I've never been in narcotics, I don't know. But he's, like, in the corner and he's, like, doing, I was, like, okay, I'm just going to, like, not look at what's happening, cause I don't care, I'm just, Hi, I'm just getting the bird, I'm, like, don't, like, sorry don't mind me. [00:19:19] And yeah, he didn't like that. But I did get the bird, and then I didn't know what to do with the bird. So I have the bird now, I'm like, oh, what do I do now? So I was going to walk back to my husband and tell him to get in the car.  [00:19:33] Jason: Yeah, we were seven floors up. You had no idea where I was.  [00:19:36] Sarah: No, I didn't. I was just going to walk around until I found you. [00:19:39] But I had the bird in my hands. And I was going to go back to my husband and then say, like, I guess we have to figure out what to do with this bird. We have a bird now. But this woman, she was on the street and she's like, Oh, hi. She was like, excuse me, do you need help? And I said, I don't know. [00:19:54] Can, do you know what to do with an injured bird? And she said, actually, yes I do. And I said, Oh my God, thank God. Because I didn't know what I was going to do with this bird. And she said, Oh, you have to take it to whatever on earth she said. And she's like, I can do that because I guess she works there or something. [00:20:11] So she's like, oh, I'll take it in tomorrow. She's like if you give me the bird So then she had this whole bird probably ate  [00:20:18] Jason: the bird. She's probably some homeless person that ate the bird.  [00:20:21] Sarah: He was not a homeless person. It was a couple.  [00:20:23] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: There was a couple they had a dog.  [00:20:26] Jason: Okay, meanwhile, I'm coming down an elevator. [00:20:30] It lets me out on the first floor of this parking structure, does not let me into the parking structure. There's no, like, it just exits the building. So I exit the parking building and it locks me out of the building. So I can't even go back in and I'm like trying to find her. I have no idea where she is. [00:20:49] And so I'm calling her and yeah  [00:20:53] we ended up talking, didn't we?  [00:20:54] Sarah: No, I called you.  [00:20:55] Jason: Yeah, you called me.  [00:20:56] Sarah: Then so the lady takes the bird and now I have no bird, which is great and the bird is safe. And now I'm thinking, okay, let me just, I didn't realize it was as tall. I really did not know that the building was that tall. [00:21:08] So I figured, Oh, there's probably like three levels, whatever. I'll just walk around and find the car. It won't be hard. Well, I'm walking around and I'm realizing, Oh, okay. Well, this just keeps going. Yeah. And you  [00:21:18] Jason: were wearing the worst shoes on the planet.  [00:21:19] Sarah: Worst shoes. I was wearing a  [00:21:21] Jason: Okay. Let me explain this. [00:21:23] They can't see your outfit right now. Sarah looks like sex on wheels. Like, her outfit is hot. Like, this is a hot dress. This is like a form fitting store dress. I bought this for her. She looks really good in this. Sorry. And she's wearing these high heels. [00:21:39] She's wearing these high heels like Louboutin, whatever they're called. And they're like, did I buy you those?  [00:21:46] Sarah: That pair? Yes.  [00:21:48] Jason: Okay. Yeah, I bought her these shoes and they're wicked uncomfortable.  [00:21:51] Sarah: They're so uncomfortable.  [00:21:52] Jason: Like whenever she wears them on a date.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Christian Louboutin, I have to say something about him. [00:21:55] He either hates women or he has no idea what women's feet are like.  [00:21:59] Jason: I don't know, but he's laughing. Or both. He's laughing all the way to the bank, whatever. Because they're not cheap. So, she's wearing these shoes that she can't even walk around in. And you're going to, there's no way she's going to go up seven floors of parking. [00:22:12] Sarah: I was on the third floor.  [00:22:14] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:15] Sarah: Yeah, I got to the third floor and then I realized, oh, okay, so then I called you.  [00:22:19] Jason: Yeah, and then she eventually finds me. We get. You need to go back up to the car because I didn't grab your purse. Because  [00:22:26] Sarah: he left my purse in the car.  [00:22:28] Jason: Because I should have been psychic and known that she needed me to grab her purse. [00:22:32] Right guys. And so we go back up, but he had to let me back into the building because I was locked out and their thing wouldn't work to let me back in with my parking pass thing. So she comes down to the first floor, opens it up, lets me in. We begin in the elevator, we go back up the top floor. [00:22:47] I'm like, what were you thinking? And she's like, what were you thinking? You didn't grab my purse. You left my purse. I'm like, you're way more important than the purse, woman. And you're like going around crazy homeless people and like trying to save a bird.  [00:23:03] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:04] Jason: So  [00:23:05] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:06] Jason: Okay, good job. You did it. [00:23:08] Good job. You're like  [00:23:09] Sarah: We've been saving lots of animals.  [00:23:11] Jason: I think there's a Bible verse where Jesus says something or God says something about like your life is worth more than many sparrows or something like that. Yeah. So I don't know. Some of you don't know what the verse is.  [00:23:24] Sarah: I must've missed class that day. [00:23:26] Jason: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, we go up to the car, get this, come back down, we exit that same exit down on the first floor and I'm looking around, I'm like, this is not a great area. No, it was not.  [00:23:37] Sarah: It was bad.  [00:23:37] Jason: There's some rough characters and like, they're walking around and like,  [00:23:41] Sarah: bleh. In fact, we went to the comedy club and one of the comedians, he said, so now I have a bully and he's a homeless man and the same homeless man, he like, hangs out right outside the comedy club and he said, I'm here all the time. [00:23:52] And now the homeless man is like harassing me every single time. And he's like, so now I have a bully who's a homeless man. He's like, what do I do about that?  [00:24:01] Jason: Yeah, this is great. This is great. So  [00:24:05] Sarah: yeah.  [00:24:06] Jason: Yeah. So I may be able to keep Sarah safe from her bird rescuing adventures in the future. We'll see.  [00:24:13] Sarah: Stop the car. [00:24:15] When I tell you to stop, just stop the car.  [00:24:16] Jason: You still would have gotten out. I didn't want you to get out. We could have come back.  [00:24:20] Sarah: Oh, no. It could have died in the meantime. What if it went in the street? It tried to go in the street. I had to stop it.  [00:24:27] Jason: All right. I would rather a little bird die than my wife. [00:24:31] Sarah: So that's okay. Yeah. But I don't feel like I feel like there's a third option.  [00:24:36] Jason: Men, you know what I'm thinking right now? You know.  [00:24:40] Sarah: They're like, what is wrong with her?  [00:24:42] Jason: They don't think what's wrong with it. They just go, that's what women do. Like, and yeah, and guys understand. So.  [00:24:49] Sarah: We have to save things. [00:24:51] Jason: Okay, so, should we wrap this up? Anything else we should have? I didn't know we were going into this whole date, but I have a date planned for this weekend. It's the one that I thought had been the previous weekend. So we're, I'm taking her out again, but men plan some dates, show some leadership. Don't wait till she asks you to do things. [00:25:10] Try and Be proactive and find ways to do things before she asks you right. And if she's asked you to do things multiple times, you probably are being a lazy bum. Comfort ease and that's feminine, right? Everybody loves to see a woman in comfort in with her pillows and cushions laying out attractively but guys. They love to see guys at work, like they, man, you do the work. [00:25:34] If you are just sitting around watching football games all day and being a bum, then you are actually in your feminine as a guy and men are men of action. Get some stuff done, do some things, be proactive, improve yourself. So that's all I'll say about that. All right. So yeah. And join our program and get, join our program. [00:25:56] Get a coach like me. That's going to call you out on your BS and help you step into a mass more masculine frame. We will crush it more in business. And I guarantee that you will be getting more respect, more love, more sex, more, all the good stuff. If you show up and if you like show up and be the person you were meant to be. [00:26:16] So, we, I will challenge you to do that. I've worked with relationship coaches. I've got a coach for a marriage coach right now. I've got we've had business coaches like you need to be constantly improving yourself. So, I will make sure that you're doing that if you join our program. All right. [00:26:33] That's it for today, right? All right. Until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. If you would like to be part of the adventure with door, grow, Go to doorgrow. com. Check us out. Book a call with us. We'll find out if we can help you. And if you are wanting to be a little bit more connected to our free community, you can go to doorgrowclub. com and join our free Facebook group. And that's it. Bye everyone. [00:27:01] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:27:27] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen MacDonald speaks with Sarah, Sally, and Leanne about Sarah's experience of having Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) after giving birth. They explore how CBT helped Sarah regain control during a challenging postnatal period, addressing struggles such as insomnia, anxiety, and adjusting to new motherhood. Sarah shares her journey of balancing therapy with the therapeutic benefits of movement and time spent in nature. CBT therapists Sally and Leanne discuss the powerful combination of therapy, physical activity, and connecting with nature for improving mental health.  Useful links: NHS Choices- Insomnia-https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/insomnia/  NHS Guidance on feeling depressed after childbirth: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/support-and-services/feeling-depressed-after-childbirth/ MIND information on how nature can help mental health: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/nature-and-mental-health/how-nature-benefits-mental-health/ For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Listen to more episodes from Let's Talk About CBT here. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced and edited by Steph Curnow   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today I'm very pleased to have Sarah, Sally and Leanne here to talk with me about having CBT, in Sarah's case, when you've recently had a baby and also the value of getting more active and getting outside into nature and how that can help when you're also having CBT. Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself, please? Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm, 37 from Sheffield and like I said, just recently had a baby, and she's absolutely wonderful. She is a happy, loud little bundle of joy. I ended up having CBT though, because the experience of having the baby wasn't what I thought it was going to be, I think is the reason. And I, just went a little bit mad, so I got some help. Yeah, I'm normally a very happy, positive, active person. Lots of friends, very sociable, always like to be doing things, always like to be in control and have a plan. I like to know what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing. And all that changed a little bit and I didn't really know what to do about it. So yeah, got some therapy. Helen: Thank you Sarah. So, we'll talk with you a bit more about what that was like. And first, Sally, would you like to just briefly say who you are? Sally: Yeah, so I'm, my name's Sally. I am a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist, working both in the NHS and in, in private practice at the moment. Helen: Thank you. And Leanne, Leanne: Hi, I'm Leanne. and I'm a cognitive behavioural therapist as well. And I also work in the NHS and in private practice with Sally. Helen: Thank you all very much. What we're going to do is ask Sarah to tell us a bit more about, when you use the term mad, perhaps I could ask you to say a little bit more about what was happening for you that made you look for some therapy. Sarah: Wel the short answer to that is I developed insomnia about 12 weeks postnatally, didn't sleep for five days. Baby was sleeping better than most, you know, so it was equally frustrating because there was no real reason I didn't think that I should be awake. And sleep obviously is very important when you've had a baby. As I said, I like to be in control, like to prepare, like to know what's going on. So I did hypnobirthing, I prepared, I planned, I packed the biggest suitcase for this birth of this baby that I was really excited for and I thought I'd prepared mentally for every eventuality- what kind of birth, what would happen afterwards, but all very physical because they're the sorts of things that I could understand and imagine. And basically I ended up having an emergency C section, which in the moment I was fine with and I didn't think I was bothered by it, but the level of pain afterwards, that then again affected my level of control over looking after the baby. And the level of debilitation it created that I wasn't expecting- this is the key thing, I wasn't expecting it. That meant that I wasn't able to be me, really. I wasn't able to not least look after a baby, but get myself dressed, get myself showered, walk to the shop, drive a car, play netball, walk my dog. And I wasn't able to do any of that. I didn't appreciate that I was struggling with that, with accepting that. And because it went on for so long, and of course with this comes the baby blues that everyone talks about, but that's meant to only last apparently a couple of weeks. I, you know, you kind of just think, oh, well, I feel all this. I feel pain. I feel sad. I can't stop crying. But all that's meant to happen, all that's normal and it's sort of became the norm. So I was like, well, this is normal. This is how I'm going to feel forever. At this point I didn't have insomnia. I just could not stop crying. And I mean, like I couldn't, I didn't talk to anyone for two days at one point, because I knew if I opened my mouth to say anything, I would start crying. Like literally anything, I would just start crying. What the clincher for me was when I spoke to a doctor, I thought they were going to say get out and about, do some therapy, which at the time, I'm going to be honest, I thought, I can't sleep. I need a fix now. What I now know is I was doing a lot of behaviours that over time culminated in my body going, you're not listening to me, you're not well. Right I need to do something physical so that you wake up and do something about it. And that was the insomnia. So, I went to the doctor fully expecting them to say, do some mindfulness, do this, do that. And at that point I was just, you need to fix this now. I need to sleep. I need drugs. And yes, that's what they gave me, but they did say you need to do CBT- but what they did say what the first thing the doctor said was, you need antidepressants. Now, as a nurse working in GP surgery for them to jump all the self-help stuff and go take these tablets was like, Oh, right. I'm not okay. and it gave me that like allowance to say, I need to take tablets. But I already had said to myself, but I want to do not just mindfulness and helpfulness for myself. I want to do structured CBT because that way it is something I'm doing to give me back my control and I've got a plan. And because I already knew CBT was wonderful. Yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, how it worked, the structure of it. And I get that there's different types for different problems. but I knew that's what I wanted to do, once I had tablets to help me sleep and knew the antidepressants were going to work eventually, which did take a while. I was at least doing something myself that would help me forever. And I just thought, what have I got to lose? I need to do something. And until I started CBT, basically, I just felt like I was running around in circles in the dark. And the CBT gave me control and focus and, right, this is what we're doing going that way. Because until I started CBT, you know, I was Googling everything. Right, I'll try this. Right, I'll try that. And because it didn't work within 24 hours, I'd then try something else and try something else. Now it was making it worse, obviously. So, to have the CBT and have my therapist say, do this one thing for a whole week. I was like, all right, okay. That's quite a long time, but there's obviously a reason. Helen: Sarah, thank you for telling us all about that. What I'm hearing is that you had a combination of massive changes in your life, which will happen when you've had a baby, all sorts of things about the kind of person that you are, kind of added to all your really careful and sensible preparations for having this baby and then really being taken by surprise almost by all the other impact that it had on you and taking a while really to look for help and to look for a very specific kind of help then. And I'm just wondering in the context of all that, what it was like when you first went to see Sally for therapy? Sarah: Well, like I say, it was brilliant. It was like having someone turn the lights on and point me in the right direction and say, right, head that way and don't turn off and don't go any other direction. Just keep going that way. And it will eventually result in this. It's like if you go to the gym and you're running on the treadmill and you're thinking, well, is this going to achieve what I want it to achieve? And until it does start to, you've not got that positive reinforcement, to keep going. So quite often you stop, and that's what I was doing. I was trying one thing, trying the next, because I was so desperate for it to just go away, this insomnia. Which obviously at the time was one thing, but I understand now there was a whole other problem going on but the insomnia was what I needed fixing. I found CBT for insomnia, but Sally said, do you want to do a more generic anxiety control type approach and I said, yeah, because that's what if before this, you know, five, six years ago, little things would happen. And I think, Oh, I should do CBT for that. So it's clearly the same thing. So yeah. Why don't we just tackle it as a whole? And that was definitely the best thing to do. Helen: It sounds as if one of the things that was really helpful was looking at the bigger picture, as well as focusing on taking enough time to make changes. Okay. Can you tell us about the specific things that you did in therapy that you saw as particularly helpful. Sarah: Yeah. Like you say, what was helpful was being given a timeline really, and a direction. Like I say, when you go to the gym, you're not sure if it's going to work, I had to just trust Sally that what was she was explaining to me was going to work. And of course, at the time I couldn't see how it was going to work, but at least someone I trusted was telling me it will this, just do this? What was most helpful I could say was being told you've got to do the homework yourself. There's no point in being just told stuff. It was explained to me. And then what was helpful was then being told, go away and do this one thing for a whole week and then we'll review. So it really just broke down my thoughts, behaviours, my thought processes that I was going at such a hundred miles an hour that I wasn't giving, even giving myself time to think or realise I was having, and essentially that's what CBT is, you know, making you stop, think and unpick your thoughts and your behaviours and then trying to change them accordingly. So yeah, that the homework was helpful. And then obviously reviewing that homework, which with, before I even got to the review, a week later, I was able to physically feel and see why I was being asked to do what I was being asked to do. Helen: And I'm just thinking the analogy that you used there about being in the gym that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be super fit or running five miles the first time you got on the treadmill, but there was something that was tending to make you, you use the word desperate really to make a difference immediately. Because things needed to change. And during the therapy, was there anything that you found particularly challenging or something that either you and Sally talked about it, but you really didn't want to try it? Sarah: Well, as the weeks moved on, obviously the challenges that the homework got harder because it asked you to delve further in and make the changes of what you've, you know, you've realized just to give an idea, essentially the first week, I was asked to literally rate my happiness per hour as to what I was doing. Sounds simple. It is simple, but very quickly I realised, well, this doesn't make me as happy. So why am I doing it? And then of course you stop doing it because you know, it doesn't make you happy. And then over time, there's less time that you're unhappy. The second week, it was a bit more detail, rate how anxious certain things make you., So that was all fine. But once it got to the weeks where it was highlight the things that you've found out make you anxious, now do them or don't do them. Or, you know, if there's something you're doing to make yourself feel better, but actually you've realised it doesn't really work, it actually has a negative effect later on, don't do it. And if there's something that you're avoiding, but you know probably will make you feel better- do it. So that's obviously that's the scary bit because you've literally facing the spider, if that's what your problem is. but again, like every other stage during the CBT, I found it really easy. The main thing was I trusted Sally and also had nothing to lose.  One of the things, the behaviours that we realized I was doing was seeking reassurance from people on hypothetical worries. So you Google, you ask your experienced mums, why is my baby this colour or not sleeping or eating or the poo looks like this? They can't answer that. And you're wanting them to reply, Oh, it's this. And of course they can't. So, or I'd say to my husband, am I going to sleep tonight? He doesn't know that. And by doing that, I would reinforce the anxiety. But yeah, that was an example of something I stopped myself doing. And within days I realized, Oh, there was that thing that normally I would have asked about or Googled. I didn't. And actually nothing bad happened and I forgot all about it. Cause that was the worry was that it all comes back to sleep. If I didn't ask, would I then lie awake at night worrying I don't know what the answer is, but I didn't. So yeah, the hardest bit was actually stopping certain behaviours or starting certain behaviours. But actually I found it very easy once I had done because the positive reinforcement was there, you know, it worked. Helen: Thank you, Sarah. And, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to bring Sally into the conversation to talk about her reflections on what you've just been saying. Overall though, what are the things that you're still using now from what happened in therapy? What are the things that you learned and how are things now compared with when you first went to see Sally. Sarah: Well, things are great. I'm on antidepressants still. I'm going to see the doctor soon. Cause they want you to be on those for six months before you even think about coming off them. I feel myself now, so I feel confident to do that. Um, and because I'm healed, I'm back to being myself physically. I play netball, I walk the dog. I mean, I walked for four hours yesterday because of dog walking and pushing the pram around and played netball as well. So that helps, you know, being out and about physically, being in nature where I would normally be definitely helps my mood. The CBT a hundred percent has helped because there's been change again with the baby. So we've gone from breastfeeding to weaning, sleep changes, cause it's all about sleep, putting her in her own room, thinking when she's going to wake up, is she okay? Am I going to get back to sleep? Is there any point in me going to sleep? Cause she can be awake in this many hours. You know, that's a whole new challenge that I've had to deal with and there's been times that I've stopped and thought, Ooh. There's a thing I'm doing here and it's a behaviour that we recognised was what I was doing originally, which when I did it too much caused the problem. So, I've been able to really be more self-aware, basically, checking with myself and go, stop that. You don't need to do that. Everything will be fine. And guess what it is. Helen: Well, that's really good to hear. And what I'm also hearing is that it's not just that therapy helped, is that you're still using the techniques that you learn in the therapy. Sarah: I am. And also, I meant to say. This might not be the same for everybody, but it's quite important for myself because I'm not at work at the moment, you know, I'm a nurse. I've lost a sense of not purpose, but people come to me every day at work asking for help and support and advice. And I love to be able to do that and hear them say that's really helped, thank you. And since having the CBT, because it is something people are more happy to talk about nowadays, the amount of people I've spoken to that have said, Oh, I've done CBT or Oh, I'm thinking about, I've been told I should do CBT. Or none of that just I'm doing this behaviour and I'm not happy. I feel like I've been able to be a mini therapist to a few other people. I've been able to pass the torch a little bit because even though the problem they might be having is different to insomnia or anxiety, a lot of what Sally taught me was, I found, they were telling me things and I was thinking, well, I'll just say this thing that I do because it would work. And I've been able to relay what Sally said to so many people. And that's given me a lot of, joy because I've been able to help people. And they've said, Oh, right. Brilliant. You know, either they've gone to therapy because I've told them why they should because they didn't have anyone telling them that before, they've gone and then come back and gone, that was great. Or they've said to me, Oh, I didn't think anybody else was on Sertraline. 80 percent of the country are on Sertraline. It's fine. And that gives them support. Or like I say, the little technique Sally taught me, I've said, do this. And then they've come back and gone, do you know that really helped. So that's been nice for me too. Helen: Well, if there's somebody out there listening to this, who hasn't had that kind of conversation with you, or someone else who's recommended CBT or things that you can do to help in a situation like that. Is there anything that you would want to say about, CBT or looking after your mental health that anybody out there who hasn't encountered it before might need to know or want to hear. Sarah: It's free, most of the time. It's something that will help you for the rest of your life. Unlike, you know, a course of antibiotics. it's something that gives you control. It doesn't hurt, there's no injections. It's brilliant. Talk to people, I think is the key thing, not least your doctor, because obviously that's a private conversation. But again, as working in a GP surgery, I know that majority of health issues that come through the door, there's always an in for therapy. There's always a little bit of whatever they've come in with. Do you know what therapy could help that?  It should be the crux of everything. You know whenever a patient comes to see me, I can't think of many situations where I don't say, do you know what would help? Drinking more water. I feel like it's just as important as that in terms of you can't fix something up here if you don't get your foundation and your foundation is nourishment and happiness and the therapy made me happier because I had more control, and was less anxious and more relaxed and, you know, just chill. So I think just talk to people, not least your GP, if you don't want to talk to someone personally. Helen: From my point of view, that's a great message, Sarah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And what I'm going to do now is I'm going to ask Sally, just to talk a little bit, I could see, I know our listeners can't see our faces, but I could see Sally smiling when you were saying some of the things that she told you to do. And I'd be really interested to hear Sally's reflections on her therapy with you and how you work together. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. It was brilliant working with Sarah and I think it's really nice to see where she's at now and also the fact that she's still using a lot of those tools that she learned and that she put into practice and, I think one of the things that was really good is that Sarah was ready. She was ready to engage. She wanted to do, you know, she wanted to do all of the things. She wanted to practice everything. She was ready there with the notebook, every session kind of, you know, making notes, taking it all in. And that's brilliant because that's what you need in CBT is really just to come with an open mind and just think about things in a different way. So that was really good. And I think as well, one of the things we discussed before we started the therapy was, time away from the baby. So this was Sarah's time, you know, this was an hour a week where, Sarah's husband or mum would look after the baby and this would be Sarah's hour where it's just about Sarah and it's just about this therapy and the CBT and so it was really important that she had that time and that space with no distractions. And so that I think that worked really well. We did some face to face and some remote via Teams sessions together. And I think one of the, one of the sort of challenges initially, as Sarah's mentioned before, Sarah's problem was that she couldn't sleep, that's what Sarah came with, it was a sleep problem. And it took us a little bit of time to sort of think about that together and unpick it together and go, actually, do we think it might be a symptom of a bigger picture, something else that's going on. And so we talked a bit over time and agreed as Sarah mentioned that actually it probably feels like more of a generalized anxiety and worry problem that was going on that was then impacting on the sleep. We spent quite a bit of time just exploring that and we did some fun experiments and things as the sessions went on, which is probably what I was smiling along to because I know it's not always easy for clients to, to sort of do those things and want to drop things like reassurance seeking. It's a safety net. And it's hard to drop that sometimes. Helen: Thanks, Sally. You've just said two things there that I would really like to explore a little bit more. You said fun experiments and reassurance seeking. So can you explain what you mean by those please? Sally: Of course. So, suppose I say fun because experiments are quite fun, aren't they sometimes. I know it's not easy to push yourself out of your comfort zone but I think we, me and Sarah had a bit of a laugh about some of the things that, you know, in the session, once we'd sort of sat down together and said, okay, so you're asking all of these other mums, for example, you know, what would they do in this situation, or like Sarah mentioned, what does it mean that my baby is this colour or that this is here and, you know, as we sort of broke it down together we could sort of see that, oh, actually, yeah, that they don't know. They're not going to be able to tell me this. My husband doesn't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight or not. So I'm asking this, but actually it's not getting me anywhere. So I suppose we almost got to a point where we could sort of see the funny side to those questions. And actually that helped, I think a little bit with then, right. How do we drop these things? How do we experiment with them? How do we move forward? And that really started to increase Sarah's confidence. And I could see that from session to session, you know, she wasn't asking other people, she was just allowing herself to rely on her own thoughts and her own experiences. And that worked really well for her. Helen: So there's something quite important about testing things out, finding out for yourself really having the experience of what it's like to do something differently and check whether that works in your particular situation. There was another phrase that Sarah used as well, which was positive reinforcement. I think we should just mention that's about essentially what reward you get or what is it that happens that makes you more likely to do something again. And that's what positive reinforcement means. It's just something that happens after we've done something that makes it more likely we'll do it again. And, to me, it sounds like one example of that was making it fun, testing these things out and actually getting something rewarding out of it was part of that journey. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of it. Helen: And one of the things that made me smile when you were speaking, Sarah, was when you were talking about what Sally told you to do. And what things you ended up trying out for homework and those sorts of things, the way Sally's talked about it was deciding together, discussing it. I'd be really interested to hear a bit more about do you get told what to do in CBT or is it more you end up in a position where you've decided to do it? Sarah: No, you don't get told what to do. Of course. It's all very, like Sally says, you talk about it and then together decide what might be the best experiments is a good word. Cause everyone's different. Obviously, my exact path of how we got from A to B probably might not work for somebody else. Like Sally says, I came with a notebook, wrote everything down, did homework, because that works for me. No, she didn't tell me what to do. And what was funny as well was Sally's very good at just sitting back and letting you talk, which works because I talk a lot. So she sits back and she's very good at just sort of nudging you to realisations on your own, because if someone tells you that you think something or that you should do something, it doesn't really mean much. If you think it through yourself, because someone's supported you towards that thought process, you believe it more. It makes more sense. And you're like, ah, you know, the cogs go a bit slower, but then you get there. And so over the weeks I would be reflecting on what I'd been doing for Sally, myself, but with the homework. And she'd just go, and so do you think, and what do you reckon? And then I'd go off on another blah, blah, blah, and come back to a realisation that, and she'd have this sort of pleasing grin on her face, of yes that's where I was hoping you'd get to, but you need to get there yourself, obviously. And I was just like, really proud of myself, but also proud of, chuffed for her that it was going in the right direction, it was working. Helen: It's good to hear that you are proud and also it's good for me here listening to you both talk about this because we do talk in CBT about guided discovery and that's exactly what you've just described to us is that idea that it's you that's looking at what's happening And the therapist is perhaps asking you some well-placed questions, but it is about you and what you need and your process and drawing your conclusions from what you've discovered. It's good to hear you talking about that experience. And I'm just thinking about, at the beginning, we did mention that getting active, getting out into nature and things to do with moving more were an important part of the therapy and I'd really like to bring Leanne in as well to talk about how getting active, getting out into nature might be an important part of that therapy journey. Leanne: Oh, lovely, yeah it's something that Sally and I do a lot in our CBT because we recognize that the cognitive behavioural therapy has a really strong evidence base. There's a lot of research that says that it works and it's useful for lots of common mental health problems. But we also know that there's a really strong evidence base for exercise. Exercise is known to be one of the best antidepressants. And there's research as well that says that being in nature has a massive mood boosting effect. And if you pull all those three things together, then surely the outcome can only be brilliant if you've got lots and lots of really good evidence to say that, you know, any one of these variables on its own is going to help you, but let's combine the three. So, so we are huge advocates of including that in the work that we do as much as possible for lots and lots of different reasons, but you know, that sits underneath it all. It can be so good for mood. And also from our own experience I know I feel better when I've blown the cobwebs off, or we've got outside, or I felt the wind on my face, or I've been in nature. I've just moved a little bit. So from personal experience, both Sally and I can say it works. Helen: That's really good to hear, Leanne. And I'm just thinking, I can hear the enthusiasm in your voice and certainly we do know about that effect on wellbeing on getting out in the fresh air, moving more, and how important that is. And without taking away from how important that is, Sarah was talking about she just had major surgery. A caesarean section is actually quite a big operation. She's also got a tiny baby, so at least in the immediate short term, it would have been really difficult for her to move much or get out in the fresh air very much. And it might be the case not only for people who've recently had a baby, even without the surgery, it can have quite a big impact on your body but also perhaps for people with other challenges to getting out and about and moving and I'm just wondering, how can people still benefit from combining getting more active with things that might help say anxiety and depression when they do have challenges about getting out and about? Leanne: I think the first thing that comes to mind is to get medical guidance to kind of find out from somebody who knows your body as well as you do about what's appropriate and what's doable, before you start leaping into exercise or doing anything. And I think it's about trying to find ways just to move a little bit, whether that's, you know, stretching or things like chairobics or chair yoga, those kinds of things can be things that people do at home when they have limitations or pain or, you know, anything like that, but within the realms of, I suppose you've got to pace it within your capabilities and what's appropriate for you. But things like connecting with nature. I was looking into this prior to was talking today and things like birdwatching and looking out of the window or doing a little bit of gardening or tending to window boxes and those kinds of things can give you the same powerful effects of connecting with nature and a bit of activity too. It's not about, I suppose when we think about exercise and we think about movement, we often think about the Olympics and we think about marathon runners and we think about going to the gym and lifting really heavy weights over your head. And it doesn't have to be like that. It can be small things often and Sally and I were talking about this before about, the NHS recommendations and we worked out that it's about 20 minutes a day of movement that's helpful. And also, if you add 20 minutes a day in nature so you do 20 minutes moving around in nature every day, that's going to have a huge effect. So if you can find a way to, to do a little bit, a little walk, a little stretch, look out the window, even watch a nature documentary, that has a massive effect on your mood as well, because it's connecting with nature but in a different way, you don't have to leave the house for that. How does that answer your question Helen? Helen: It does thank you, Leanne. And I'm really pleased to hear you say that it doesn't have to involve buying expensive equipment or joining the gym. You don't have to live on the edges of a beautiful park or something like that. It's something that you can do whatever your living circumstances are. There's all sorts of creative ways that you can incorporate this as part of recovering, improving depression and anxiety and your mental health more generally. And I wonder whether, Sarah has any comments about that, Sarah, because you did mention how important that was to you even before you had your baby, and of course there would have been quite a big change to what was available to you immediately after you had her. Just wondered what your responses to what Leanne's just been saying about that. Sarah: Yeah, I mean, like I said at the very beginning, my expectations of getting back to being myself were not met. And so the big things were, I actually made a list for and showed Sally of things that I'd written down saying, and I entitled it Getting Back To Me. And it was in order of, I just want to be able to make tea for my husband, walk the dog with the baby. These are all things that I just thought I'm never going to be. I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do these. And every time I did them, I was like, oh look, I'm doing that. You know, playing netball and the big one was paddle boarding, and I did it the other week and I was like, oh yeah paddle boarding. Like Leanne says, when it was very important for me as someone who's very active and I'm outdoors with the dog in the countryside all the time to get back to that. And like Leanne says though, it doesn't have to be going for a run. You know, my level of, well, what do I want to achieve was forced to be lowered, if you like, that's the wrong word, changed and because what I hadn't realized on top of taking the dog for a walk was whilst I'm there, I'm listening to the water. I'm listening to the birds. I'm feeling, I'm smelling, I'm all these things. And I didn't realise all that had been took away from me. And so that was adding to how miserable I was. And, like Leanne says, it doesn't have to be right. I need to be able to go for a run. It can just be find yourself back in something that makes you feel happy. And I think one of the techniques I wanted to just mention as well, that Sally taught me, when Leanne mentioned about you doing 20 minutes a day of being in nature or exercising, so that you make sure that you really are doing that to its fullest and you're not, you know, birdwatching whilst washing the dishes or thinking about what you need to make for tea. She taught me a five, four, three, two, one mindfulness technique, which basically is whilst you're tending to your bird box or whatever you're doing, think of five things that you can see. Four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you can feel, a one thing you can taste or something like that. And not only does that focus your mind for that minute on those things. It's really nice to think, Oh, I didn't know I could hear that I'm tuning into it. And then you do it again, five minutes later or as much as you want or, and it stops the thought processes that are negative as well, because you're focusing on that, but it just makes sure that when you're in the nature bit you are really soaking it all in as much as possible. Helen: Thank you for that, Sarah. And I'm just thinking, we've had a really interesting conversation about your experience of therapy, Sarah, Sally's and Leanne's thoughts about what they're doing in therapy and what. seems to help people to benefit from it. I was wondering if I could ask each of you in turn, what's your most important message that you'd want people out there to know? So, Sally, what do you think is one key thing that you would want people out there to know? Sally: I would say that mental health difficulties are common and it's not something that you have to sort of put up with or that you're stuck with, I suppose, for the long term, often there are a lot of quite often very simple techniques that you can practice and try and learn either with or without therapy, that can just really help to manage those, either the feelings of low mood or those anxiety feelings as well so, it doesn't have to be a major change. There's a lot out there and a lot of cost-effective things as well that you can get involved with that can just really help to boost your mood. Helen: Thank you, Sally. Leanne. Leanne: Oh, it's such a good question. I think what I'd really like people to think about is thinking about mental health, the way we think about fitness and physical health and spending time each day doing something that nourishes and nurtures mental fitness, let's call it. In the same way that we might, you know, drink some water, like Sarah said, take our vitamins and have something to eat and try and have good sleep, but moving in the direction of thinking about our mental fitness being on the agenda all the time so that I suppose it normalises asking for help and talking about things and looking after yourself and, and good wellbeing all round. Because I think people often really struggle, don't talk about it and then come for therapy when they've been on their own with it for a very long time. Helen: Thank you very much, Leanne. And Sarah, what do you think you would want people out there to know, one key thing that you'd like to say? Sarah: Probably that if you think something's not quite right or something really isn't right and you just don't, you're not sure what, you don't have to know, you don't have to be able to go to a doctor and say I've got this problem, can you fix it please? Doctors are just as, they're well trained to know when someone needs referring for therapy. So yes, that's who you need to probably go to first in a professional manner but if you just go and say, okay, this is how I feel, blah, blah, blah. They'll pick up and know, actually, you would benefit from therapy because it sounds like this might be happening or going on and then you get referred to someone obviously who's even more specialised, a therapist, and they can sit back and listen to you just offload and say, these are the things that's happening, I'm not happy because of this, that and the other, and they'll go, right, It could be this, shall we try that? And so, yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, I think, is my key thing. but you need to ask for them, Helen: Fantastic. Thank you so much. All three of you have been excellent at telling us about your experience and knowledge, and I'd just like to express how grateful I am for all three of you talking with me today. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at podcasts@babcp.com, that's podcasts@babcp.com. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah speaks with Marc Winn about how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and support meaningful connections when used with the right intentions. They explore the impact of AI on marketing and the workforce, reflecting on how businesses can shift from manipulation to empowerment. Together, they discuss the ethical implications of AI, the role of marketers in creating positive and healing stories, and how heart-centered entrepreneurs can embrace technology to build community, foster trust, and stay present amidst rapid change. This episode is a thoughtful guide for those looking to partner with AI in a human(e) way. Here's what they talked about in today's episode: How AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing, and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections. The impact of social media, AI, and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for a reevaluation of what we sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing, and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious drivers to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI. How businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes. The importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections, rather than amplifying attention-seeking behavior. -- Parterning with AI in a Human(e) Way Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Sarah: Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with AI. Yes. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane [00:03:00] Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Before I introduce my guest today, just another reminder that if you're playing with the idea of writing a business book about change, you might want to consider looking at my Business Book Alchemist program. I'm only running this once per year, and not sure if I'll run it again next year unless I'll write a fourth book. I'm finishing my third book with this cohort, and in the eight weeks that we have together, we'll refine your big message. Get clear on your ideal reader. Then build a solid outline for your book and also create a marketing plan for it. The program starts on [00:04:00] November 14th and lasts officially for 8 weeks. I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing. It comes with recorded video lessons, so homework, a workbook as well, But also live calls where we connect and have time to really exchange on our big message and the book writing. So check out the details. If you're interested at humane. marketing forward slash BBA and book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. All right, back to today's episode. So my guest today, Mark Nguyen, is a dedicated guide and mentor, helping individuals and organizations navigate the complexities of our modern world. With a focus on fostering innovation, [00:05:00] building social capital, and nurturing a sense of togetherness, Mark's work is transforming communities and inspiring countless people to reach their full potential. I Mark is the co founder of the Dandelion Foundation, an initiative aimed at creating a better future by leveraging the unique strengths of small island states. He is also the mind behind the 50 Coffee Adventure, a project that encourages meaningful connections and conversations to drive social change. So join us as we dive into Mark's insight on human centered AI adoption and his vision for a more connected and innovative world. Here's a summary of what we talked about in this episode, how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing. and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections, the impact of social [00:06:00] media, AI and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for re evaluation of what will sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI, how businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes, the importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections rather than [00:07:00] amplifying attention seeking behavior. What's funny is that it is only after the episode finished recording that we found out how to apply AI in the form of a background noise cancellation on Mark's Zoom account. I did my best and used all the AI tools I know to make the sound experience as pleasant as possible. But if you do hear some background noise, just appreciate the humanness of this episode. Let's dive in. video1863576471: Hey, Mark, so good to see you again. You already had a good laugh, Off, off recording. So I'm sure this is going to be a, a fun and hopefully also inspiring conversation for, for people listening. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thanks Sarah: for having me. Yeah, it's a delight. Always a delight talking to you and, and like Rachel shout out to Rachel if she's listening, cause she's the one who introduced you having me. The other way around and, and I [00:08:00] really, she, she told me like, Oh, every time I talk to Mark, it's like blows my mind. I'm like, Oh, cool. I want to talk to him. So we did. And now here we are talking about AI and human and whether that, you know, there's anything ethical about that. So yeah, let's dive right in. If you're. open to that? Marc: Yeah, I suppose probably the place to start is kind of what really the moment of realization for me that, that we needed to start having deeper conversations about it. Think I, I ended up in Silicon Valley maybe 11 years ago at a place called Singularity University, which was a place that teaches people about all of the crazy technology that's now arriving and the fact that it was going to arrive far faster than we realize. And so I learned about all of these crazy, fabulous, amazing tools. And it blew my mind. And it took me seven days to get to sleep [00:09:00] again after kind of hearing about the craziness that's arriving. And I was getting the plane home and I stayed in San Francisco the night before, after doing it. I, I I was walking past the Twitter head office. And or near in that area. And I just was thinking that there were tens of millions of dollars being raised to deliver food to that building. 10 minutes faster or three minutes faster or something like that. But meanwhile, there were people homeless outside for drug addiction and things like that. And I started to really question and this is at the forefront of innovation and technology and things like that. And yet, and all of this money going into stuff, but right outside, there was stuff that really mattered that Was being left behind and so I think for the past decade a lot of my focus has really been around how do we bring together this very kind of human world with this [00:10:00] extraordinarily incredible possibility in a way that we don't get some of the unintended consequences of our actions and how does governance itself. Do you know, how do we regulate all of that? And how do we realize that the, the solutions may be arriving in different silos to the ones where we're currently managing for them. And there's, you know, there's some very, very smart people doing some unwise actions. Things in the world. And so in this world of artificial intelligence you know, there's a deeper call for artificial wisdom, maybe, or birth of wisdom. And so, you know, a lot of my work in the last decade is really about, you know, the intersection of where humanity meets technology. And this idea of something new feels like it's being born and and many of our old systems are [00:11:00] collapsing under the scaling complexity of, of, of the era we're in and and, you know, deep down, we all feel like something isn't right. And, you know, I used to be a marketer myself you know, I know this is a marketing community and a direct marketer, you know, really focused on data driven insight and conversion and all the kind of standard of marketing stuff, but, but essentially underneath it all, we were kind of using people's subconscious to, drivers and fears to manipulate them into our desired outcomes. And I started to realize, well, you add AI to that, infinite power and superhuman persuasion. And at the time, 11 years ago, I saw things like Cambridge Analytica. I saw things like Trumpism arriving before Trump even arrived. And ultimately that's the whole world trying to manipulate other people. To do what they want to do rather than what is in our [00:12:00] individual best interests, you know, be it The amount of time we're on screen time having all these amazing behavioral scientists and neuroscientists leveraging Ever more powerful tools to get to do things that aren't necessarily Thriving be it the newspapers pulling us in with huge headlines or clickbait or all of this kind of thing and so I felt that my own gifts were part of the problem When I started to think about the amplification of of what what I know. So many ways. I started to move away from. You know, manipulating others into empowering others to to. To be in their own wisdom and to do things in their individual and collective best interests. And then how do you actually build a mode of governing ourselves from that place? So yeah, I'm 10, 11 years into that process and I probably have more questions than answers. But these are incredible, amazing tools that do we have the wisdom to use? To use them wisely. [00:13:00] Sarah: Yeah. I think that, that really is the big question, right? Because like you, I'm fascinated by the intersection of the human versus the artificial intelligence and people are sometimes quite surprised because I talk about all things human marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. I'm writing my third book business, like we're human. And, and yet. To me, artificial intelligence is an integral part. That new paradigm that I love to talk about because in my view, it actually helps us to be, or to go back to be more human. And so I guess I would like to have your perspective on that as well, because right now there's two opinions. The one that says, well, AI or chat GPT in marketing is, is just there to dehumanize. everything and [00:14:00] it dehumanizes the interactions and it dehumanizes the, the, the, the messages. So is that true or is there another way to use AI to actually, you know, make that humanness come out in a different way? Marc: So it's all about intention for me. Like the same tool used with misaligned intention. Can deliver vastly different outcomes. And so it's like, it's not really the tool that's the problem. So if I'm using it, I need to create more time that I can pay, spend time with another human being in deep care and deep love, and that is a tool being used to support my humanness, just like zoom is being used right now to have this conversation. It's like, you know, this is the one that says this is an artificial conversation because we brought two humans together. Together that otherwise wouldn't have the time to be able to reach each other and so You know [00:15:00] like like all things it could be used to separate or to connect. It can And so and really it's around what is the intention that these tools are being used for so, you know Say we've got this we've got airline here in my community. It's under Lots of stuff. It's kind of breaking because planes are not going right and the customer service is really Bad because they can't scale to a crisis. And so you couldn't employ enough humans to be human, right? And well actually if you've got systems that can expand and scale and And communicate in a human like way that can support people When they need it in an emergency when you can't provide humans And the current alternative is to be a robot and not available then And people being struggling at airports and all of this Kind of stuff and in crisis and not knowing what to do and all of this kind of stuff but if you've got an Intelligence system that can solve every problem rather than if you press button five And then button three and then about two you [00:16:00] can solve this particular problem, which isn't the problem. I'm really wanting a It's an act of care to provide a tool that meets people's needs. It's an act of love to design a system that cares, even though you're using technology. You know, so for me, I have this I'm a huge proponent of using systems from a place of love, care, and connection. And you know, AI is like magic. If used in the right way with the right kind of, you know, Emotion. Sarah: It leads me automatically to the next question, which is, well, are humans ready for that tool? You know, because if we're saying it's a great tool with the right intention, then maybe what we need to work on is the intention because the tool is already smart enough. So it's the intention that we actually need to work on. And so how [00:17:00] do we, how do we work on that? How do we get humans ready to use the tool with the right intention? Marc: Well, it's not only using it, but it's also about how susceptible are you to manipulation? You know, so like if you have loads of subconscious fears or stories and things like that, it opens you up to people using superhuman persuasion to, to, you know, if you have a fear of death, you're much more likely to be sold health products and all this kind of stuff. So in many ways the inoculation is, you know, what I always say, you should actually teach kids. about marketing and behavioral science, not because to get them to manipulate other people with it is so that they become more aware of what's driving the bus when most messaging is subconscious. And. Yeah, and so, you know, there's this, I think most of us have been through that aging process where we get wiser as we get older. [00:18:00] And that's kind of the shift in consciousness we go through as we evolve during, you know, our lives and humanity has to go through. a real shift for it to Be able to build systems in a way that don't have those consequences So you look at something like facebook or smartphones and things like that We can see all around us that this death of a thousand cuts has happened where everybody's just living in this kind of screen Like every single one of the thousands and thousands of decisions that went into that was probably made sense Logically and smartly but somehow we've ended up in a place where we're All in the same room but disconnected from each other. And so it's like you know, we've accidentally lost ourselves and we can see that with climate change or like with something like that you know, like can you really solve a problem like climate change without Without understanding that over consumption [00:19:00] Is a maybe a self worth issue like, you know, am I enough, you know? Or do I need more to To be someone and recognizing that, you know, these tools are manipulating that Sense of not enough and then how do you how do you how do you market pay a bill? when Your whole business model requires people to consume more even though it may not be in their best interest And so that interesting gap between wants and needs You and how do we, how do we, how do we get technology to support us what we really need rather than what we can be manipulating to wanting and I, you know, I kind of always look at what, say, how billionaires operate. Themselves, you know they'll a lot of them have an amazing assistant that is like the world's best ad blocker, you know You know what I mean? They don't really need to use the internet themselves or anything like that because it'll be facilitated and [00:20:00] so we kind of you know need to look at those kind of tools and stuff that we can build which are you know, the wise owl that sits on people's shoulder and and supports people, to choose the higher selves in moments of You of kind of manipulation. So I think it's an extraordinarily interesting time to be a builder that cares. I think there's never been a better time to you, to develop kind of technology with wisdom and technology that can bring us together and technology that can create magic and wonder and all of these kinds of things. But also there's, there's never been a better time to create lots of unintended, Consequences. Sarah: Yeah, I think that's the issue that I have is that we don't have enough examples of good people using AI right now. And that's why there's so much fear because people look at the. Not so good examples, [00:21:00] you know, the, the, the, the LinkedIn bots putting, you know, AI chat, GPT messages and spamming people and things like that. And so they're like, you see, you know, that's what AI is going to do. It's going to dehumanize everything because the good people, I'm just putting the two of us in the good people side, you know, there's not, you haven't seen Marc: me on a bad day. Sarah: But I'm just saying, there's not enough people who, who talk about doing business for good, who are also saying, yeah, but AI can be actually really good if we use it with the right intention. That's what I'm seeing. Marc: So a LinkedIn bot, I'm like, why wouldn't you use a LinkedIn bot to spread delight and wonder and mischief? You know, I was thinking about developing a belly laugh app the other day, just to, just to send belly laughs to people and things like that. You'd [00:22:00] be really good at that. Yeah. Record yours. Yeah. And it's just like, well, why would you automate something that would bring joy, laughter, and kindness? So, you know I think a friend of mine, Nipun Mehta, who does a lot of stuff around AI and wisdom, highly recommended stuff, and he's like, what about the seven viral virtues, you know, and how do you actually get to that? technologies to support the virality. I, you know, again, it's, it's like, I love the idea of a LinkedIn bot that just makes people laugh and, and, and it's about value, right? Yeah, you see a lot of these LinkedIn bots and it's all about what can I get? What can I get? And then sometimes it's a bit lazy and and it's like, Literally, it's like, I'm a human being. Why would I even respond to that? It's not even clever. Exactly. Well, that's what I Sarah: mean by bad examples, right? But it doesn't Marc: mean you can't be, you can't use the same technology and genuinely be clever and funny. [00:23:00] And well, but humor is my Brand essence and things like that mischief and playfulness. I'm not going to design something using these tools I'm not afraid of using these tools which kind of but I I would use them that really spread the essence of me to find That kind of deep resonance with other people, but you've also got to say well look if everybody used those tools which is increasingly getting easier and easier to do. We just break every social platform. There's so much noise, like the information overload right now is, is getting exponentially worse. And so, you know, to even get connection, you know, the depth of connection that has two people trust each other enough to work together. You know, that isn't going to come from the scaling the shallow, right? You know, that's, there's, you know, there's a reason why I kind of wrote a book on having coffee and, and teaching people to have coffee was, I think, in a world of ever increasing shallowness and scale, the ability to go deeper is kind [00:24:00] of the social network raster class. So, you know, I've had 10, 000 coffees in the last decade because I didn't think the other stuff would, would work that well as the noise did. You know, because everyone's like me, me, me, me, me, me, me with all this technology and amplifying the need for attention when, you know, and, and what we really want is the need for connection. And then when you, if you start with the premise on, okay, how do we use technology to support depth and trust an emotional connection. I think we build very different things. And that's the paradox Sarah: for me, that that really is the paradox. And that's why I believe that AI is actually helping us to create more spaciousness, to have time for those coffee chats. Yeah. Because right now people don't have the time. They're like, I don't have the time to talk to someone for 45 minutes. I have all these things to do. We have all these, this busy work [00:25:00] that we keep doing. Especially as entrepreneurs, often it's not even paid work, right? It's just like all these marketing messages and content plans and all of these things. And that's where AI is actually really good at helping us create that, if we even need to create that. I'm all about questioning our assumptions as well. Like, do we even need to create all that love? So yeah, people want depth more, right? And so that's what AI helps us create. create this more spaciousness to then spend time on a thousand coffee chats. And that's where the humanness comes back. Marc: And we're also going to realize that the world we're moving into is very different. You know, the idea of free intelligence, free energy, free labor, if we And like making money is something, you know, capitalism itself starts to break down in the next [00:26:00] decade or two as a result of if you draw the line of where all of this is going, because we're automating parts of our process today. But you know, you add a humanoid robot to that kind of thing and like everything can be done All needs can be provided and things like that with that kind of technology that's arriving And so it's like what are we selling when there's nothing to sell and how do we make? We have no needs that can't be met by you know The robots and the ais and all of that and the free energy Around us, right? And so Yeah Sarah: Yeah, that's huge. Like, yeah, what do we sell anymore? How Marc: do we find meaning in that process? Which, you know, I'm kind of the global conversation around meaning is, you know, around me since that WikiGuide diagram went around the world and things like that, that are responsible. There's a crisis of meaning.[00:27:00] Happening in the world right now. In in many age groups as people are trying to reconcile where, where do they fit in, you know, as the world is changing very rapidly and the old stories of who we are are moving in. And so, how do you find. Intrinsic motivation to when your old identities kind of dissolve, you know because, you know, we are more than our jobs or who we are with something deeper, but that process of discovery of who we are and what we find joy in when the workplace is going to radically change, it is changing. And how do we, yeah it's just like a. It's a very kind of strange time to be alive, you know, we're all kind of going through a process of death and rebirth, whether we like it or not. And it's like yeah, the need for attention to pay the bills is a kind of temporary state that I think we'll have to raise questions about whether we need to do that. To do that anymore. And [00:28:00] then, and I always kind of say to my wife and it's like, vague, it's like, when the robots come out, you know, our marriage is what's left. Let's work on that bit, you know, rather than understanding the importance of all of these tasks that need to be done in everyday family life. And and likewise, you know, when the robots come and, and who you are, And AI comes, who you are is what's left out of all of this stuff is done. It's like, what would you do when nobody is looking just for the sake of the joy of doing it? That's, that's Sarah: really interesting. Cause it in the, in this new book Business Like We're Human, I basically feel that we have to work on our relationship with work right now. Yeah. I think that is for the next five or so years. That is our main thing because also of you know what's going to come but for [00:29:00] me also because if we want to run businesses like we're human well right now we're working all the time and that that's not human or humane. But then also to To tie back into climate, the climate crisis and all these other crisis we have right now, we cannot solve those if we're constantly working to pay our bills. So we need to free our time for creative thinking, for just, you know, being human again so that we can tackle those and, and probably AI will help us with that as well. But I do believe that as humans, we need to redefine who we are. When we're not working, that is kind of like the question of the of the decade. I feel like, like, who are we if, if we're not working, if we're not defined by our work, because I, yeah, I didn't take it as far as the robots coming, but yeah, that's where we're going, right? Marc: Yeah. Whether it's Sarah: robots or AI or [00:30:00] whatever it is. Marc: Yeah. And it's like, what are we, what painting do we paint with that? We've kind of grown up with many kind of dystopian views of, Of what the world can be with that and I'm I'm more hopeful than that. But also recognizing that in in business terms I think about capital flows during that kind of period. And, you know, if we think about, you know, say the Holy Grail is in 10, 20 years or whatever, or 30 years, depending on your understanding at 40, 50, a hundred years or whatever, and you say, okay like how much money needs to flow to create a world of human thriving within planetary boundaries, you know So the energy system needs to change the health system needs to change all of these kind of things And so huge amounts of money Needs to move to facilitate that transformation. So I you know, I don't really like we need money to end money I kind of always say and it's like [00:31:00] I think it requires the best marketers the the best businesses the to You you know, to shift all of the resources from this kind of extracted deficit, extractive deficit based world that is around human coping to you know, this regenerative asset based world around human thriving that will unlock more wealth than we can ever imagine. Imagine to the point that wealth becomes pointless. So I don't really necessarily think it's an either or Thing it's not something we need to create time with our jobs to then have something else I think we'll see exploding industries and businesses that come from people who care that want to build something human with all these great tools That actually are unafraid to make money in the process of doing it because they, they're willing to inspire people to be hopeful and to move to another world. And and you, you see all sorts of brands starting to emerge that, that, that [00:32:00] attract lots of resources because, you know, I, it's not an either or thing. Like there's, you know but it's, it's messy, you know, going from caterpillar to butterfly and I, I don't necessarily have all the answers myself, but I, I don't you know, the idea, you know, I think there'll be an explosion of wealth but because we have all of these machines and potential, and we'd be able to create more circular ways of doing things, more regenerative ways of doing things, and like, you know, really well, people are better. And people who are below the poverty line, you know, create income and and money for businesses. And you get a load of struggling people behind the poverty line, that's not good for anyone. Or people with chronic disease or all of these kinds of things, that's not good for anyone. And I think once we start lining up kind of these entrepreneurial desires with what the world really needs and what we all need, and we get into creating a much, much bigger pie for everyone. Then, you know, we'll all do much better than we did before [00:33:00] monetarily as well as. And, you know, these tools can help us do that, but we need to all kind of learn to line with our own best interests and humanity's best interest heart, but, you know, part of that is how do we learn to get along enough to find out enough about each other to be able to collaborate to find out what really matters to us individually and collectively. And I think we're struggling as a, as a human race. With that right now, Sarah: yeah, that's, that's the main thing. It's like, yeah, the outer stuff is all lining up for us, but are we ready in terms of the inner job? Are we doing our inner job? And Marc: yeah, I mean, I can't even create agreement in my own family, you know, how do you create agreement in the world? And it's like, man, this feels like the tension, you know, it's like we have all of this limitless possibility arriving, but can we get out of our own way? to, to to manifest it. And I think this is the, I think this is the real role that marketers play which is [00:34:00] telling these really positive, hopeful stories that not just for people to consume, but to inspire people, you know, to be the best selves and, and to create the thing that they're, they're born to create and to be okay to do that perfectly. And in a human way and to create that kind of, you know, viral deep connection that comes with people. being alive. Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That's kind of a a good place to to come full circle. I love how you did that It's like, oh, yeah, it's all about the marketers Marc: I did start off as a marketer So, yeah, I can spin a story I can't do much but spinning a story Sarah: That's great. No exactly and I think that's really You What, [00:35:00] what we're working on is like, you know, marketing has been taught as an outside job for so many years. What I'm trying to do with humane marketing and some friends and colleagues are, you know, they're calling it differently conscious marketing and Claudia and other people. It's like, well, What if we start from the inside? What if market, a marketer is actually a healer, right? That's, that's what this is about. And it's, it's, you can call it a marketer or you can, whatever, a facilitator, whatever it is, right? If, if more people heal themselves and then help others heal, that's, that's. Marc: Yeah. I mean, I tend to, cause I work right across community and I knew the language of consciousness and healing and stuff really resonates and connects with a certain part of the community. And be at whatever stage and kind of the adoption curve that is, although that's rapidly changing. But to me, it's just good marketing. Like, let's not cloud [00:36:00] it with its own form of words. Bureaucracy and stuff like that. It's like, you know, the whole point of marketing is to emotionally connect with people to create a mutually beneficial outcome, right? That's just good marketing. Let's not dress it up. And like, we're just, we're just learning in this era that there are ways of marketing better and deep connection and trust is one of the core aspects of, you know, Marketing for as long as I've known it and it's just like we're we're learning our craft collectively. We're getting better at doing that and let's See it something else or them and us. It's just It's just good marketing. Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. I always ask now that I'm working on this book the final question is like, what does business like we're human mean to you? Like when you hear this term business, like we're human, what comes up for you? Like, what, what does that make you [00:37:00] think of? Marc: Yeah, for me, it's like this idea of mutual exchange. Yeah. You know, I think in the consciousness community, there's a lot of fear of receiving, I think, and You know, I kind of always had these visions of like, kind of the Italian markets and things like that, where there's this great flow of abundance and handing over the money and fruit and beautiful stuff coming the other way. And there's all this kind of love and conversation and things like that. So that, but there's still trade because, you know, it's, it's. It's a, it's a pain in the ass to do barter, you know, it's exhausting to like find the right person who's got the bits, you know, so there's, there's something magical in as a technology [00:38:00] commerce itself that, that allows previously impossible exchanges to place. And I think there's beauty in that. You know, the market was a place of conversation and connection and wonder and beauty and care. and you know, that to me, and it can take all forms, but the essence of that, that it's something done together from a place of, but there's still this kind of exchange going on. That's, for what that means in a modern context. You know, it's not sitting at home, pressing one click on Amazon, watching Netflix for three hours a night. Not speaking to anyone, not going anywhere that to me isn't human business, it's business. But Sarah: Yeah. It's also, it's like buying from not a human, but this giant mega list of company, right? Where on the market you see the person that you're buying from. So you [00:39:00] like, there's this establishment of trust as well. Marc: But it's not to say that I haven't had amazing things from Amazon or amazing things from Netflix. And that there is an art and wonder and love that's been put into all of these things. And, you know, we've just got to hold it lightly and say, well, okay, how do we just tweak these things a little and then be a little wiser about how we're using them and then try and build these systems in a way that bring us together rather than drive us apart. And and I think that'll be good for business, you know maybe, you know, Netflix becomes the world's greatest party planner or something, you know, like that brings people together. I'd pay a subscription for that, you know, took all the effort by meeting and, you know, Amazon was creating pop up markets all over the world to create kind of wonder. I think these things will end up being massive. Businesses that will create more commerce than the current kind of disconnected way of doing things and it's just these are really complex, complex problems is, you know, working [00:40:00] globally, but the bringing us all back to each other. Whereas I think, you know, globalization is has driven a lot of convenience, but it's also driven a lot of disconnection. And I think. You know, the businesses of the future will be much more fractal that allow us to be human and in villages and at Dunbar kind of scale of connection, but still provide us with that kind of convenience and wonder. But I think that's where things like AI are really interesting because they can hold all that complexity that I kind of hunter gatherer localized minds can't hold. And when those 2 things work in unison that work in our individual and collective best interest, then I think we'll, we'll create. Wonderful, inspiring, connecting businesses that will not be the same as the Italian markets that drove that, but will be even better. Even Sarah: better. Even better. I don't know about that one. Marc: What if that was possible? How magical would the world be? I like to, you know, see the, I [00:41:00] like your Sarah: optimism. Yeah. Well, as I Marc: say to my dystopian friends the day we all die, at least I would have enjoyed myself on the way there. What's the downside for hope, right? You know, that's the, and so, yeah, I, I, I, I'd like to think we could live in the world where the wonders of the past and the wonders of the future meet together to create something better than we can even imagine today. I don't think we have a choice. Sarah: Yeah, we don't want to be stuck where we are, so Well, we Marc: can't. We can't unify unless we honor the past and bring forward the magic of the future and do it in a way that honors us all, in a way that inspires us all and connects us all. I don't think we have a choice about that because everything else leads to, you know, a huge kind of dissatisfaction and disconnection of one society, part of society over another. So, you know, it's [00:42:00] a time for the hopeful imagineers to, you know, that COVID phrase, you know, build back better. I don't think we And you know, this is about society turning from a caterpillar into a butterfly and and you know, we're in the messy bit it's hard for a caterpillar to see what a butterfly looks like from that perspective, right? So like we it's hard to imagine from where we are going into the liquidation Liquidation that there could be a mutable butterfly the other side I don't want to you know, spend hours and hours of my life fearing for the future Yeah I want to be part of building the butterfly and not to say I don't spend hours and hours of my life figuring for the future, but like when I remember, that's pretty pointless. I get back to the, you know, the everyday wonder of spending time with amazing people, building amazing things as you do, right? And that's always what turns me to hope is when I'm in a conversation with someone like you, realizing that there are people like you all over the world in all sorts of different ways doing amazing things. And [00:43:00] that whilst it's not always easy to see on the news feeds and the social media feeds, like if you spend enough time out in the world, you, you can feel, you can feel all over every day. And whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed by the future, I just go and have coffee with someone wonderful. And it reminds me that I'm not alone in this And There are people building technology from care. There are people Bringing the markets back. There are people like doing all sorts of but you know with thumb up machines and all of these kind of other other bits and pieces that that will you know, yeah But we'll find our way. Sarah: We're just Marc: a little lost right now. Sarah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, I definitely want to talk again to you because every time I speak to you it's like, oh, you see, there's so much no, no, I'm usually a very optimistic person as well, and I still am. Surround myself by, yeah, content and, and ideas and inspiration. But yeah, talking to you, [00:44:00] it's, it just confirms all of that. It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm working towards. So it's been a, it's been a delight to refresh my memory with your wisdom. So so much for coming on today. You spend a Marc: day with me when I'm in family life, you'll see. See, I'm not that wise, you know, there's no pedestal here. I spent time thinking and feeling about certain things. I have some gifts, but I also have many, many weaknesses. And so I don't want to cover this space. I'm good. You know, this is my gift. But please don't get the wrong idea that I don't spend lots of time in my struggle as well. How British of you to Sarah: be so humble. Marc: Self deprecating, I think it's Sarah: the Marc: culture of birching ourselves. Sarah: And I'll just have to mention that I'll have to use the best AI possible out there to clean up the audio from all [00:45:00] the mic sounds and stuff. Marc: Do our best. Sarah: I hope it wasn't too terrible Marc: to listen to. Yeah, and the builders started hammering half way through it, but I think that's the best. The magic. Although I, although I, I invite you to put out an imperfect live offering that shows the humanism. Yeah, we'll do a mix of Sarah: humanness. We can't, you Marc: know, polishing everything also loses some of its. Some of it's magic. It's like romantic almost. As long as you put a good story on it, it's fine. Sarah: Good. Well, delightful to hang out with you, Mark. Thanks so much for being here. Marc: Take care. Sarah: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Mark's work at markwin. com or [00:46:00] connect with him on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for others who think like you, who are wanting to create this new paradigm of marketing and business, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:47:00] [00:48:00] soon.

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Is your dental practice running smoothly without your constant supervision? In this enlightening episode, we delve into the heart of effective leadership with Dr. Sarah Blair, a seasoned expert in guiding dental practice owners toward efficient and engaged management. Dr. Blair candidly discusses the pitfalls many leaders encounter when they aren't actively involved with their teams, especially when it comes to key responsibilities like patient interactions over the phone. Through her insights, you'll discover how attentive leadership can turn potential lost opportunities into lasting patient relationships.Dr. Blair also shines a light on the often-overlooked back-office inefficiencies, using supply management as a prime example. Drawing from years of experience, she shares practical strategies to bolster team performance by focusing on comprehensive training, streamlined systems, and the critical importance of setting clear expectations. As the episode wraps up, Dr. Blair invites listeners to connect with her for more tailored advice, ensuring that leadership gains aren't just theoretical but actively applied to foster a thriving dental practice.What You'll Learn in This Episode:The impact of active leadership on team performance and patient engagement.Strategies to enhance patient communication over the phone.Common back-office inefficiencies and how to address them.Importance of clear expectations and consistent training for team effectiveness.How to transform practice management with effective systems and leadership.Tune in now to unlock revelations that will transform your dental practice's leadership dynamics!‍‍Sponsors:‍‍Oryx: All-In-One Cloud-Based Dental Software Created by Dentists for Dentists. Patient engagement, clinical, and practice management software that helps your dental practice grow without compromise. Click or copy and paste the link here for a special offer! https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/oryx/‍You can reach out to Dr. Sarah Blair here:Website: https://www.indiepractices.com/Sarah's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sarah.blair.961993Indie Practices Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/IndiePracticesTop 10 Team Management Solutions: https://www.indiepractices.com/digital-resources‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey, Sarah, so talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning. Sarah: All right. So my piece of advice is to be aware that the work that your team is doing when you're not around probably isn't as good as you think it is. That's a little controversial to hear. It's not what everyone wants to Michael: So, well, First let me clarify a few things. first by not around. I don't mean you're on vacation. I mean that you're just not present. So it means you're busy, you're distracted, you're not paying attention. that's what I mean by when you're not around. And I also want to clarify that this is not anti team by any means.Sarah: We are super pro team. We love teams. it's just that there, is a disconnect between what the leader should be doing and should be providing and what the team is actually receiving. So I've been a team member myself. I was a dental assistant. I worked at the front desk. So again, we're super pro team.This is more of a leadership concept here. Michael: Okay. Gotcha. So is it more in the sense of like, Hey, we're doing what we're supposed to be doing clinical work, right? Talking to the patients, being with patients, but then we don't know, really know what the front office is doing. They're doing busy work, but not productive work.Sarah: That's a great way to put it. Yeah, the truth is that your team is almost certainly underperforming some areas if you're not engaged managing. So as coaches, we get to see and hear this a lot. owners don't always want to hear this news, but we get to look at the metrics and we get to listen to the phone calls and when we look at these data points, we can see that the team is not performing as well as The way that the practice owner has been hoping or the way that they have always believed that their team is performing.Michael: So why does this happen? Is it from the beginning, from the get go, is it happening like that? Or is it more like they fall into a lull and now they're not performing as good, but they figured a way to, make it look like you are. Sarah: We actually have the top 10 list of all of these key areas.The ways that teams typically underperform, and the ways to address it. And we're going to have that on our Facebook page. It'll also be on our website and under the resource library. So we probably wouldn't get through all 10 of those today. And like you said, some of them do apply early on. Some of them can apply to long term team members that have maybe started out super energetic and fired up and things have drifted off into a different place at this point.So basically as leaders. We're failing our teams if we don't provide guidance, AKA training and systems, clarify expectations, monitor the results and hold the team accountable. So as we like to say inspect what you expect. Michael: Okay. So then What would you say are the most common that you've seen time and time again?Sarah: primary one that I would say is on the phones. So we're seeing, really common things happening on the phones that owners are totally unaware of. They're trusting and hoping that their teams are doing a great job. In fact, sometimes they genuinely. Believe that their team is doing a great job and it can be really frustrating and disappointing for them when they find out that's not the case.So I would say phones and what's happening on the telephones is One of the biggest areas, and luckily for us as coaches, one of the areas that we're able to document and observe the most closely is the way, especially incoming new patient phone calls are handled Michael: So then when you're listening into these phone calls, where do you see them drop the ball the most?yeah, so the most common theme is just Reactively answering the first question of course is usually do you take my insurance or how much does this cost? And so they just go directly into the nuts and bolts of answering that question without building any connection building trust without building value for the practice and talking up the doctor in the practice and why you're going to love it here.Sarah: They go right into the nuts and bolts of complicated insurance plan, something like that. So not taking control of that phone call right from the beginning is where we see team members fall off the tracks most often for this. And again, this is a, leadership issue because the team members don't have the training, the systems in place.to have those successful conversations with new patient callers to get them into the schedule. So it's not a team problem. It's a doctor problem. Michael: Providing the guidance. Could you Sarah give us like a script to that reaction? So like let's just say it's super common, right? Or it's hey, you take my insurance Sarah: usually people it's a lot of nose. It's a lot of going down rabbit holes and oh we don't play some plants here. You'd have to go see a Surgeon, it's a lot of roadblocks You And a lot of denial. So I think a lot of team members are afraid. To give unrealistic expectations so they shut things down right away and consequently the patients are like, okay, I guess not coming in.it's so sad and I hear, we just hear hundreds and hundreds of these calls all the time where it's like a dead end. It's a roadblock. It's a bottleneck in the conversation. So instead, so we have to take that tough question. Sometimes I like to envision it as a brick or something that if somebody's handing you this object, you have to take it.It's not what we're going to deal with immediately. We're just going to set it right here. And then we're going to draw the patient in by connecting. And by building value for the practice before we get to that tough thorny question that we're going to deal with soon. So it could just be something like, First off you answer, you know, hi, my name, practice name. How can I help you today? And then they're going to give tough question. They're going to hand you the brick and you're going to say, awesome. That's such a great question. I'm so happy to help you with that today. Let me just get a little bit more information so I can help you out with that.And then you just go right into, get their name, use their name through the rest of the call. And then you're going to ask, find out why they're really calling. So patients are asking about insurance and pricing because they don't know what else to ask. But what they really want to know is, are you guys nice?Are you guys good? So you got to build that connection. You got to build a value. So you're going to say Oh, you just moved here. That's awesome. Welcome to the area. You're going to absolutely love it. And you're going to love our office. Dr. Jones is amazing with whatever it is that you wanted.So if you asked him how to crown, he's awesome at crowns. you're already building that value and that connection. And team members invariably think that's a waste of time. We don't take their insurance. Let's just end the call, but you're going to lose a hundred percent of those callers. If you at least build a connection and you're building trust, you're building value, so much more likely that you're going to schedule and that that patient's going to actually show up.Michael: like that. I like the way you put it like as a brick. I remember there was a, thing where they said like in different cultures, more like Japan, Japan. When you bring a gift to them, it's considered rude to open it in front and be like, Oh my gosh, compared to here, like in America, right here, we want to open it immediately and we Sarah: expect, Michael: but over there, they say like, put it to the side and acknowledge the person.Don't worry about it right now. Sarah: That's great. Think of it as a gift that someone just handed you because the gift is they're presenting themselves to you as a potential new patient. This is not some. Terrible problem that someone just handed you. It's a potential new patient and it should be the most exciting and important thing in your entire day.But sadly, team members don't get the training on this. They don't know how to take that call and take control of it and turn it toward the things that really matter. Of course, we're going to answer that tough question. We're not going to be evasive. We're not going to be dodging questions. We're going to deal with it, but we have to build that connection first.Michael: I like that. And then real quick for the back office where do you see it? Where it's like, Hey, you guys are being busy, but not productive. Sarah: Yeah. A couple of different areas where your team is probably not optimizing and they're underperforming in certain areas in the back. one area that we've seen recently, a lot of supplies.if the team member is ordering supplies. they probably don't have designated time set aside for themselves to do that. They're just fitting it in wherever they possibly can around a busy schedule. They probably don't have a system, so they're just ordering whatever's easiest with no way to price shop and look for the best possible options.we had a client recently who is.Supply costs were almost 20 percent of their revenue their minds were blown when we shared this data with them because they hadn't looked at it. with just three simple changes, which setting aside time for clinical assistant to actually do this task,training her on how to do it and what system they were going to use, and setting a budget and setting some really clear expectations.They cut their costs dramatically without sacrificing one bit of quality. And in fact, it's actually much easier for everyone on the team now. that's just an example of where if you're not paying attention, if you're under managing and not inspecting what you expect, you're going to get a result that is really out of line with what you're hoping.And you're going to see it in the numbers. Michael: I love that. Inspecting what you expect. Awesome. Sarah, I appreciate your time and if anyone has further questions, where can they reach out to you directly? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So you can email me directly. It's sarah indie practices.com.That's I-N-D-I-E practices. or you can check out our websiteor just chat with me on Facebook. So just reach out to Sarah Blair on Facebook and message us on in practices on Facebook. We're always putting out new content and you can check out what's going on.Michael: Awesome. So that's gonna be in the show notes below. And Sarah, thank you for being with me on this Monday morning episode. Sarah: It was a pleasure. Thanks so much, Michael.

In this episode, Erno Hannink joins me to explore how mission-driven entrepreneurs can make decisions that align with their values and create meaningful change. We dive into the power of habits and decision-making, discussing how aligning choices with personal values reduces mental fatigue and fosters personal growth. Erno shares insights on the importance of courage, and how businesses can go beyond profit to make a positive impact on society and the environment. Tune in to discover practical ways to build habits that lead to lasting change, both in life and business. Here's what we talked about in today's episode: How aligning decisions with personal values can help automate decision-making and reduce mental fatigue The impact of social media and news consumption on decision fatigue and mental health The importance of courage in decision-making, especially when aiming to create impactful changes in life and business How incorporating habits like gratitude and regular check-ins can enhance personal growth and communication How small, consistent changes in decision-making and habits can lead to lasting impact in our personal lives and the broader community Why businesses should go beyond financial success to consider their impact on society and the environment Erno's decision book, which helps improve the decision-making process by reflecting on the journey, not just the results Free Info Session on October 9th. Watch this episode on YouTube --- Intro with music NEW 2022: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Ep 197 intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of passion of the humane marketing mandala. But also all the other P's because we're talking about making decisions. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your, One page marketing plan [00:03:00] with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. Before I tell you a bit about my guest today, allow me a quick plug for my upcoming business book alchemist program. The business book alchemist is a small group program for aspiring renegade authors who want to write a book that becomes part of their life's work. I've hosted this program for the first time last November and led a small group through creating their book outline, message and defining their ideal reader. We are still meeting monthly to hold each other accountable on our writing. And one of them has already submitted a chapter to a multi author book. So if you've always thought that one [00:04:00] day you'll write a book, then maybe the business book alchemist is for you. And that one day is right now. The business book alchemist is for change makers and trailblazers before they are authors. That's why we. call them renegade authors. They really care about the message more than about just being a featured best selling author. It's for first time authors who are looking to write a book that makes a difference. coaches, business, marketing, life, health, and more who want to write a book that becomes part of their life's work, and any other heart centered and service based entrepreneurs who are looking to write an authentic book that reflects their unique voice, experience, and insights. So I'm calling it business book alchemist, but in the new approach to business. So this is not just a how to book to [00:05:00] do something in business, but it really is aligned with this idea of doing business like we're human. Or is aligned with bringing change to business. So those are the kinds of people that I'm looking for, for this program. As you probably know, I've written two self published books about change, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. And I'll be working on the finishing touches of my third book, business like we're human during the program. I wanted to share all of my learnings with heart centered entrepreneurs and aspiring authors, empowering you to write a book that becomes part of your life's work, because your message needs to be heard. So, if you do have a message that needs to be heard, now is the time to become a Renegade author. And writing a book is kind of like having a baby. There is never the perfect time. But if you do it now, you'll be supported by like minded people [00:06:00] and way beyond the eight weeks of the program. Again, we're still meeting monthly with the members of the previous program. And all you need to do to be part of that monthly ongoing community is Join the humane marketing circle. So join us now for a free info session on October 9th. That's 4 PM UK time. You'll find all the information. If you go to humane. marketing forward slash BBA. So business book alchemist humane. marketing forward slash BBA. And the link is also in the show notes. Otherwise, you can also just send me a message if you have more questions. And yeah, I'm not sure if I'll host a program again next year. Maybe I will feel the calling to start a new book, and then I'll definitely run it again. So I'd love to see you on October 9th [00:07:00] for the free info session, and if you can't make it for that time, just send me a message and we'll find a time to talk one on one. All right, back to today's episode. My guest today is Erno Honink. Erno is a sparring and accountability partner for entrepreneurs committed to creating sustainable, positive impact. He explores the nuances of decision making and shares his insight through articles, books. Podcasts, newsletters, and practical tools. With a life mission to reduce social and ecological inequality, he's dedicated to empowering others to make meaningful, impactful choices in their entrepreneurial journeys. Here's what we talked about in today's episode, how aligning decisions with personal values can help automate decision making and reduce mental fatigue, the impact of social media and news [00:08:00] consumption on decision fatigue and mental health. The importance of courage in decision making, especially when aiming to create impactful changes in life and business, how incorporating habits like gratitude and regular check ins can enhance personal growth and communication, how small, consistent changes in decision making can lead to lasting impact, why businesses should go beyond financial success to consider their impact on society and the environment, And finally, Erno's decision book, which helps improve the decision making process by reflecting on the journey and not just the results. So without further ado, let's dive into this conversation between Erno and I. Sarah: Erno it's good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Erno: Thank you, Sarah. It's Sarah: good to be Erno: here. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. It's good to be with you at a distance. We are one of those few [00:09:00] people who met in real life which is always nice, right? To have this human connection. And that was in in Coal this, this summer, earlier this summer. So I thought. Why not follow up with somebody who's in the same kind of movement talking about inner to outer. And then I looked you up and you're talking about decision making decisions with impact. I'm like, Ooh, yeah, that, that makes for a good conversation. So let's talk about decisions. And I guess we're going to go into habits as well, because that kind of goes together, but let's start with decisions. Like, I, I looked it up. It's something like 35, 000 decisions every day. Is that, is that possible? Like, do you, do you know that if, how that's been measured, but it seems like a lot of decisions every day. Erno: Yeah, I'm not sure what the exact number is. I, what [00:10:00] the thing is if you look at the work of, um, book, what's his name? I forgot his name. Daniel Lieberman. No, that's not the one. Atomic Sarah: Habits. Erno: No, it doesn't really matter what you have. You have what he calls system one and system two parts of your brain. Well, they're not actually parts of your brain, but that's how they respond. And it's, I think it's, it's just, everything is derived from, you know, habits is derived from that idea. That what you want to do is whenever you have a decision to make that most of the decisions that you make are pretty automatic. Like if you count six plus one, you, you know, the answer, right? You know, the answer is seven and it's automatic. You don't have to think about it. Well, you actually do think about it, but you're not. You know, you're not consciously thinking about the topic. And because it's been so ingrained into your brain that you know, you can instantly say the thing. And the [00:11:00] same happens, for example, by putting on clothes on in the morning for most people or you know, brushing your teeth because it's, Stuff that you regularly do at the same time after like, you know, something you did before that, that's related to brushing your teeth or taking a coffee, whatever it is, it's a very regular thing that we do. But in, in, you know, in, in theory, they're all decisions, right? They're all decisions that we make. I'm going to brush my teeth. Teeth now, yes or no. Right. And, but if you think about conscious decisions that we really need to think about, that's really a conscious part that we need to think about. You try to minimize those because it costs a lot of energy of your brain. And our brain already consumes a lot of energy in total of our body consumes the most energy that we do. And we want to try to minimize that, you know, by just automating decisions. And only think about the decisions that [00:12:00] really are difficult or important to us you know, like longer term decisions or you know, things that you are not, you don't know the answer to, you haven't ever seen before, new situations that you're in. So, for example, if you see a line. your automatic decision, even if you have never seen a line, is to run as fast as we can. And what happens in your brain is it shuts down you know, this part in the front of your brain where you regularly, really consciously think because if you need to think about, oh, this is a line, so would he attack me maybe? Is it, what kind of color does he have? How fast is he running? And all this stuff, if that's going to happen in your brain, by the time you stopped thinking and you made a decision, you probably already been you know, attacked by the lion and you have no time left. So all this stuff, you know, even if you haven't been in a situation, then sometimes we exactly know how to respond and you don't really think about it. But there's other situations where you really need to think about it. And [00:13:00] it all comes down to like thousands of decisions a day. And that's why it's important to save energy by creating habits. And the most, you know, difficult part of course, is that we create habits that contribute to the things that we want to accomplish, that the things that we stand for, that underscribes our values and all these things that are important to us, that we really do make automatic decisions that really, you know, support us and what we really want to accomplish. Sarah: Yeah, it sounds like there's two separate or different things. One thing is creating habits for, for the decision fatigue, almost like, you know, the small things, what do I eat for breakfast? I remember hearing Tim Ferriss talk about that back in the days when he wrote the four hour workweek book. And it's kind of like, oh, it's the same thing every day. And that just takes one decision out of, away from your day, you know? Works pretty well [00:14:00] for me. I have my oatmeal every morning and it's just like, I love it. I actually look forward to it. And it's kind of like, Oh yeah, I don't have to think about it. And so the other thing we can then do is also build on habits because I eat my oatmeal. That means that then after I'll have my tea and then after I'll do my yoga. So they all kind of go together. Right? So, so that's one thing and that it's great, but then. What you also talked about is the bigger decisions. And that's really what I want to talk about with you is, is like decisions for impact, right? But they go together because I feel like if we spend or waste our time on all the small little decisions, then we probably don't have the time or the spaciousness to. actually invest and think about the, the bigger decisions that have a bigger impact. So, so let's go there. Like, how can we, how can we know [00:15:00] and identify what truly matters and make decisions from that place? I think that's what it comes down to. Down to us, like, how do we know in the, in the inner development goals? One of the skills is the inner compass, right? So like, how do we go there and make decisions from that in their compass? Erno: Yeah. I, I, and I just want to come back to it because It previously, I was referring to the book, thinking fast, slow, fast and slow. This is by Daniel Kahneman. He passed away last year, earlier this year. But he had, he's done some great research on thinking and decision making. And I think thinking about the larger, more important things to us in life. Um, really you don't, you don't have less time to think about those things by being consumed of smaller things to think about, because in general, I don't think [00:16:00] if it's smaller, you don't think about it, but if you look at the inner compass, it gives you. A so, so what the inner Compass does to me, I, I wanna make this personal 'cause maybe it works differently for you, but if you, if you, if I used Inner Compass, I have like an idea, a vision, it's related to my values of what I want to accomplish in life. What is important to me once are, you know, what's. What's the things that I feel is true or false or important, or, you know something that I have influence on, for example, right? So there's also, in my opinion, there's no real reason to be really busy about things you don't have influence on. And if you know that, if you know what your compass is, is if you know what your true North is, or your North star, then It becomes a lot easier to make decisions because what I do then is [00:17:00] whenever a decision comes to me, for example, if somebody asked me if I want to join this group or this team, or if I want to do this work or I want to work with this client, I can start by looking at my inner compass and that goes pretty fast. Seeing if this really helps me if it supports the compass or it's just a different direction, or it will just pull me away from a compass and everything that aligns with it, that's, you know, that helps me to basically say yes in the, you know, as a starter. And then I can look into deeply. Do I have time for it now? Does it, you know how much work is it? So all the other decisions that come after that, but the, so weeding out most of the decisions. By just looking at my compass, my inner compass, and seeing all the decisions that I have to make or questions that be asked to me or interviews I need to do which don't align with my compass, I can just say easily no to, right? So that [00:18:00] already shifts so many things from my plate that that frees up time. These are not small decisions. They are all big decisions, but they free up time by just making very quickly, okay, does it align with my compass? My values? Yes and no. And the other thing, which doesn't really help have to do a lot with decision making, but or maybe it does because we consume a lot of media every day. So we use social media, we see the news, we watch, we read newspapers, we watch, we listen to a podcast or we watch the news. So we consume a lot of media in general as humans every day with social media, even more than ever, I would say. And also with social media by these algorithms the timelines are a lot influenced, biased. So they are biased with opinions of others that are like us. So people that we kind of trust or people that we [00:19:00] feel have similar opinions to us, we see more of those messages or opinions or whatever coming by. And we kind of get like numb for those things, especially when we see a lot of news that's. Um, negative that's like about war or about floods or droughts, and especially when it's far away. We see so much negative news. So we kind of like become numb for those images. And at the same time we also become like fatigued from those, from that information. It clutters up our brains and. The, the weird thing, of course, is it doesn't have a lot to do with our decisions, but because it's like, it's about, you know, frightening situations, about terrifying situations, like a war, or like you see people in the floods, you see cars flowing away in, in Austria, by a river that's [00:20:00] overflowing. And then our brain tells us there is something really terrifying going on. And it goes like in sort of like, Fight flight mode and makes a decision, what can I do now? And in general, we can't do anything. It's far away. It, we don't have to do anything. There's not a lot that we can do, but it still, it fatigues our brain and that to me doesn't really have to do a lot with decision making, but our brain feels like it needs to make decisions and the, the best way to, you know, make this. less of a burden to you is to avoid news or make the amount of news or media that you consume less. And the ones that you do consume that is related to your inner compass, for example, that's the information that you've, you know, you're really interested in, make that more. So make sure that you get. A wider perspective on the situation so that you have a clearer view on everything and just the negative part, but also the positive part and the, [00:21:00] you know less biased parts so that it all becomes more a really evaluated information flow that you can trust and think, okay, now I can merely make decisions. Can I do something? What can I do? Thank you. And then you can think about what is it that I actually can do. And that, I think also helps you to become more impactful because it will tell you the things you can do. And that feels like I'm making an impact that feels also that you have, you know, less feeling that you're like Not able to do anything about it and just becoming fatigued from information without doing anything about it. So to me, that is like a way of reducing decision making between brackets. Quotes, I would say, but. It's not really, you know, it's just a brain thinking it needs to make decisions. And there's really nothing to decide because you [00:22:00] can't do anything about it right now. So that I would say is going to help you more with reducing fatigue of your brain decision fatigue. Sarah: Yeah. I love that you brought that up with the, with the media. It's, it's true. I didn't think of asking anything about that, but it's so related because it all Spaciousness and that's kind of like my favorite word these days and so we eliminated the small decisions because we created healthy habits. But then you're right. Our brain is still bombarded with all the media stuff. So we need to also block that. That out. So then we just have this like quiet space where we can actually focus on the decisions that, that, yeah, that do have an impact. And, and the other thing you said that the decisions that we actually can control, right? What's in our control and what isn't. And it's [00:23:00] true. I see my, I saw myself scrolling through YouTube with all the floods and, you know, in Eastern Europe and things like that. And it's, well, it's okay to be informed, but it's not okay to then kind of feel, yeah, frozen almost like. What do I do now? Like I, it's, it's almost like you get into this mini depression and feel like everything I do is basically pointless because it's called, it's all going to shits. So, so yeah. Which isn't Erno: true either, right? No, which Sarah: isn't true. It's just like, yeah, exactly. And I remember I, I was Spending a lot of time in the sustainability field and it was like, just so negative, everything was, you know, that was being shared was negative. And, and that's why I then moved to the IDGs, the inner development goals. Cause I'm like, I can't, if we're all burning out because we feel like [00:24:00] nothing can be done and it's all, it's all doomed, then that's not helping anybody. And so decisions for impact to me means. decisions coming from a good place, a healthy place, right? So that's why I think your opinion about, you know, creating, creating barriers around ourselves to keep us sane and healthy and in a good space so that we can make those good decisions is really important. Erno: Yeah, and I think to be clear, I, I, I do believe that we are going to shit. So I do believe that the way that we acting today as humans is just ending our lives as humans on the planet, right? It's not ruining the planet, but the planet will continue to turn for millions of years when we've gone probably even do better without us. And that doesn't mean. That until that time [00:25:00] we can do a lot to improve our lives, right? So if we look, for example, at, you know, the floods and droughts that are getting closer to us, right? We see floods in our closer in Europe, let's say, for example, we see floods that to spaces or places and cities that we've been on holiday and it. Becomes like closer to us. We see, Oh my gosh, I've been there. I've stood on that bridge. I've, I've walked through a town and the river was so quiet and, and, and nice. And now look at it, what's going on. And but this has been going on In countries around, you know, the equator for, for many, many years, like in India, it's plus 50 degrees. It's sometimes unlivable droughts in Africa, Northern Africa for a longer time. And it's all due to the things that we are doing on the planet, like burning fossil fuels. So if if you look at that picture everything that we [00:26:00] know from science, everything that we know that scientists have been telling us for years are true and you know we are just warming up the planet with burning fossil fuels. And right now it doesn't seem that a lot of people think that we need to change this or not. At least the actions don't show it, right? So we, we, we keep supporting fossil fuels. We keep buying cars, we keep buying new stuff and working with plastic. So there's a lot going on that I believe. That will, you know, make this planet unlivable for humans and other animals. Which Sarah: brings me to courage because I think courage is needed for any kind of change making and especially for. You know, decisions with impact. So how can we encourage people to, you know, use more courage when it comes to decision making and, and stand up for their values and worldview? Erno: I think it [00:27:00] has a lot to do with. Creating a perspective of what you can do as an individual. So if you believe that everything that's going on around you is out of your control, you can do anything about it, then you will just be staying and living the way that you do now. You watching a Netflix and you just go to your sports and you just go to your office and do your work that you need to do, but to the, you know, the company that you work and you just think, okay, I'm going to live my life and I'm going to just You know, earn money and just continue the way that I do, because I don't see any way how I can change this. So what we want to do is tell stories. I was going to say paint pictures, but I think telling stories is better. Tell stories, how we as individuals can make changes. And especially in relation to what is. And I'm thinking about the book, Saving [00:28:00] Us by Katherine Hayhoe, and she is a professor in climate and what she's telling in the book and saving us is about, you know, you normally would say saving the planet, but this is about saving the humans. Right. So, and what she's saying is that she's. Sharing stories with groups of people talking about climate, but every time when she is in front of a group, she's translating that topic to the values of those people that she's talking to. So she's looking at the values of the group, the people that she's talking to, sees what is important to them in relationship to the climate, and then shines a light on that part of the topic. So for example, when she's talking about to farmers, she's talking about droughts and talking about having you know, floods about crops that go to waste because there's no, not enough water. And then they understand, yeah, this is really going on. We've been seeing that in our own farm that this is happening right now and, and it, and then they listen to, so what can we do to change this? And then you can give [00:29:00] them some steps to what they can do. On their farm to make changes slowly to overcome and at least change that situation. So to me, it is about a lot about telling stories and making sure it relates to the values of the people. So, because then you can, you know, you don't need a lot of courage to start working on this. You just need the right coach. You just need the courage that fits with your values. And if it's close to your values, it doesn't cost a lot. It just. It's just another step of what you've been doing. It's not like something completely different that you're picking up now. Right. So I think it has to do with making visual. What the small next step is for the person that's sitting across to you, what they can do as a next step. And then coverage is just, you know, it's just a small part of that. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that kind of brings us to, to marketing because, you know, you're on a podcast called Humane [00:30:00] Marketing. And so people could go, well, what does all of that have to do with marketing? Well, it doesn't. Has a lot to do with marketing because storytelling and marketing are essentially the same thing nowadays. And, and so what humane marketing also stands for is to, yeah, to encourage change makers to talk more about things that, that matter and, you know, the, the values that they stand for and the, the, the world, their worldview. It's all related. And if we bring that back to decision making help me out here. Like the, the decisions to, I think the decisions is, do I stand for something? And do I bring that into my, my work? Marketing that's what I always encourage my clients to, to say, well, make your worldview your niche. So meaning [00:31:00] bring your worldview into your business, into your marketing and, and, and tell these stories. Yeah. That, that also can influence other people, not just to make them buy your stuff, but to make a change, right. That's in the end, that's what we all want. Erno: Yeah. And the scary part, maybe he is, if you, if you bring a story to your world, which your world isn't ready for right now, or is not familiar with. That's, that's a scary view, like making a decision. Do I want to incorporate that in my marketing? What if nobody likes it? So there's a lot of Well, there's the courage, right? Yes. That's the courage. But what you, but what you can do. Is if you, if you make, I like the phrase doing good louder, I forgot who would, who I first heard it from, but doing good louder means, so you, you, [00:32:00] you do something to improve your life, to improve other people's lives, to make like a a better future. And and often it's a very, these are very small steps. There's small things that you do to make a difference. And, and we don't talk about it because we feel it's. It's small, it's like tiny, nobody really cares about that. But a lot of people don't know about this, what they can do. And they're looking for examples. They're looking for how, how do I do this? And so if you talk more in marketing about the things that you already are doing as a company, not as a. Greenwashing thing, but as like real examples of what you're really doing. I think that gives people perspective of what they can do, like real life examples of how they could do this. In their company, in their business, or as a private person, as a consumer, how they can do this. So to me yes, [00:33:00] painting a picture, telling a story to attract clients. Is attract people. I would say even better is a good thing. That's, that's, that's great. And I would say if you. Start talking more about the things that you're already doing that look very tiny and small to you. Um, but other people have never heard about it. They don't, they don't know how to start there. They don't know what to do. Like there was this challenge in the Netherlands, which is buying no new stuff for a year. So it, it started really small with just a couple of people joining the challenge and what it did was bringing people along, because it's something that everybody can do. They can think about the decisions they make about buying stuff, because if something breaks down, you need to buy something new or you, or you see something in you know, in Instagram or Facebook, whatever you see something, you know, you think about buying that. And [00:34:00] every time we do this and you're part of this challenge, you go like, okay, do I really need this? And is there a different thing that I can do? If let's say, okay, I agree. I really need this because I've, I've just broken something. I really need the same thing again, because I need. This stuff in my life. Can I get it secondhand? Can I get it fixed? Right. So then by becoming a part of this challenge, looking at all these decisions, you can make like see small changes, which in the end reduces your consumerism, which has a great impact on, you know trash or plastics or, you know, burning fossil fuels. There's a lot of things that goes into. Consumerism, it's, it's one of the biggest, um, classes of, of, you know, the, the shit that's going on today. I bring it really negative. So yeah, I think it has a lot to do with just being the example living, Like an example, not to be saying, Oh, I'm the best at this, but just showing how it can be done. Sarah: [00:35:00] I like that. And it's, it's true. So many small stories where we think, Oh, well, I've been doing this for a long time. It's obvious. Probably thinking everybody's doing it. And, and yet you find out, no, they never heard of it. I hadn't never heard of the, a challenge like that. And it's a great idea because the minute also you get into community and more than just one person doing it, there's, there's just some different energy to it. And it's, yeah, it's kind of the, the. The, the motivation the exchange of, of motivation that is really encouraging. Erno: And I'm talking about marketing, right? If you, if you look at marketing as an organization, as a company, you can do the same, you can build like a community about around your company or your goals or your vision and do the same. Just, you know, by sharing the stories, helping people to tag along and just do stuff like you do in the group. that do stuff like you do just grows and more people will become [00:36:00] like you because they do the stuff like you do and they like it a lot because they feel like. They are connected. They are a part of this group. And that's what we all as humans, like, we need to be like part of a group of humans that we can feel related to. So if you are an organization or a company yes, please do spend a lot of your energy in marketing and resource in your marketing on building that community, setting an example and showing these examples so that people can follow you and not just to be like a leader as like an ego kind of thing, but be a leader. As in like building a community and the people, you know, have examples how they could change and, and feel a part of this, right? So feel like I'm one of those people who's making a change and it feels good. Sarah: Yeah. It's like, Belonging is probably this, the, the, the word that comes up and that's exactly what we're craving at this time because we, yeah, we just feel so separated and, and we're [00:37:00] basically numbing ourself with. Buying and making all these stupid, tiny decisions that that are, yeah, taking up too much of our time as we're coming full circle in this, in this chat, I would love for you to share, I don't know an example. So you, you shared the challenge, but maybe an example of a personal decision that you've made in recent years. That had a huge impact on, on your life or, or career. Erno: It's of course, a very difficult question. There've been, there've been millions of decisions, right? If you look at like 30, 000 per day or 40, 000 per day, there's been millions of decisions that has made a change for me because I have what I call a decision book and a part of what I, you know, what I use in my, my practice and my coaching practice is if you have a. A larger decision, a tough decision. You really [00:38:00] want to think it through. So the decision book helps you to think it through. It's, it's for free, so you can just download it and use it yourself. But the important part is that you write the stuff down, how you thought about the decision. What decision you made? Why did you make the decision? What influenced it? What else could you have done? So, so everything are in questions in the decision book and the writing down and looking back at, you know, the decision making process. Afterwards, it's so important to improve your decision making process because a lot of people think if you look at the results of the decision, that will help you to improve the process, but that's not true. The process isn't part of it in itself. So you have to decision making process. So you think about, you know, the decision, you think about everything that you couldn't do, what the effects are, and then you make the decision. And then you act. On the decision, but after that, a lot of things can happen in life and can make a lot of changes [00:39:00] to what's going on. And you have no control over that, right? So there's stuff happening outside your control, but it influences your decision. Oh, actually the results of decision, but you don't control it. So, so this would happen. This could happen like a toss of a coin. What would be the result? But by looking back at the decision making process, like after a couple of months. You improve the process by looking, okay, what could I have done differently in that process at that moment? And how would that maybe have impacted my decision? Not the results, but my decision. And I think that's one of the things that I feel is really important to me is by carefully examining which decisions do I need to write down, write out and completely analyze and then look back afterwards to see how I can improve my decision making process. That's one thing. The other part is I, I, I've been mentioning this the last couple of months for a couple of times is [00:40:00] becoming part of the Inner Development Goals Network, especially the Global Partitioners Network. At some point I was asked to join the Global Partition Network. Team who organizes the meetings every month and by becoming a part of that team of how they the way that the team together organizes the events prepare for the events have discussions has taught me so much about. Looking at people about being grateful about space for silence about asking how people are doing during the discussions. Because sometimes if you, if you look in normal business life, normal we don't have time or don't feel the space to really check how people are doing after something we had happened in a discussion, but here it's like in grind in a team and it makes so much of a difference of how The dynamics is [00:41:00] going on in the team and, and how I feel related to these people. And that to me has taught me so much in the last two years that I think this may be, and it's, yeah, the weirdest thing of course, is that sometimes you feel like, because you ask this question, so how the decision has really made an impact and change that made an impact to you. The impact is in fact, really tiny. But the results, if you stack them up, it's huge, but since it's like an everyday process or every week or whatever you don't notice it. It's, it's become like a new normal to you. It's become a new normal, how you respond. For example we do these check ins. And since we do them at every meeting, it becomes a very normal thing to do check ins at meetings. So every time I have other meetings, I try to propose, it doesn't always happen, like do a check in. And what I see then, for example, one of the team members doing, [00:42:00] she's thanking the other people who've done a check in before her and then builds upon that. It's, it's a very different thing. And you could say difficult thing for me to do to thank people and be, you know, thoughtful about what they said. And instead of just thinking about me, just thinking about them and what they said and just, and using that as a bridge to continue. And I'm trying to incorporate that in the way that I now communicate with people to be grateful and to be thankful. Saying thank you for what they do and it's, it's changed the way that I communicate it now so much. And it's, and again, once you do that, it becomes like the new normal. It becomes so normal that you don't see it as a new thing or a new impact thing or like a great decision that you've made and how it changed your life. Because it's just, it's just a tiny thing, but it did change my life. I know that. Now, and I see it [00:43:00] now. Sarah: I love that. Yeah. It's really, it made you become a different person. And I, I think that's also the, that's the power of these decisions. And then the habits that go with it, because what you just described is a habit. Okay. Meeting, which we can begin with a check in. That has become a habit. And so it's become part of who you are. Right. So, so that's, that's really, yeah, that's the outcome or the result. At the same time, I would say it's the impact because man, it's just like. Yeah, you're a different person than you were before. So, yeah, Erno: yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, but it, you know, if you, if you look at like from a very timeline point of view, you could look at it like it is, or let's say before situation after situation, right? So you have the before, so you didn't know this. And after it's, it's like the new normal. Sarah: Right. Erno: In between that phase, you're, you're constantly thinking about okay, I need to do [00:44:00] the check in with this team and I need to thank the people who come before me even though this group isn't used to it and they may think I'm weird, but I have to do this to get into this habit myself. Sarah: And Erno: at some point it becomes like the normal and it's like, it's like a habit, like you just mentioned. So it's the new situation. And then everything before that is like, okay, this is normal to me. I have no. You know, it doesn't really stand out anymore. And it's, but it's, it's, it has hugely impacted my life, but it's, it's the new normal now. So, so do you think, did it really impact me? Yeah, it did. Sarah: Yeah. I love that. It's, it's, it's. It reminds me of the, you know, the, the little drips on a, on a, on a rock. It's like, well, it's just one tiny drip. Yeah. But over time, well, that can create a huge crater or whatever. So, so yeah, it really is very, very powerful. And it, it, it shows that, that we [00:45:00] can change. So habits usually are kind of like criticized and people say, well, I can't change. I'm just Like that, right? Well, no, you, you can change. And so I guess that's the, that's the encouragement. I, I'd like to leave listeners with today that, yeah, you can make decisions that have a huge impact, probably not the week after, but just like Erno said, two years later, you're a different person. And so yeah, thanks so much for, for giving us all this food for thought, Erno. Please do share again where people can find you and where, where they can find your, your decision book to download. Erno: If you, I think the best and easiest way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. It's just Erno Honig, but you put the link in the show notes and the decision book can be found at ernohonig. com. Just look for decision book there. And you find it and you can just download it, [00:46:00] you can use it as a PDF, I believe, you can use it as a, as a doc, as a document that you can just edit in your, your favorite word editor, or you can use a notion which is also a great tool I like I have a template for that too. Sarah: Very cool. Well, thank you so much. I have one last question. I'm working on a, on a book called business like we're human. And I'm asking my podcast guests. What comes up for you when you hear business, like we're human, what kind of thoughts come to your mind? Erno: The, I think in general what we believe is the way that our economical system works today. That's like definitive, that's the only true economical system that we know, and there's [00:47:00] nothing else. And there's, this is the only right thing, right? So having like a gross national product looking at growth, endless growth also, you know, also in businesses, right? So thinking about every year you need to add 10 percent to your revenue and to your profits and everything. So endless growth it's, It's everywhere. So this, and if you then think about the human part, as humans, we are not growing endlessly. We are, we have a lifetime to grow and then it ends. And what we do in that time is to pass on our knowledge to the next generation. Right. We 12, we try to give them ideas, seeds. I would say, if you look at nature, we give them seeds to build their own Um, garden, their own forest. And I think that looking at that way of business is, is there's not always, we [00:48:00] don't always need to grow. We don't need to always think about making money with our business. We can also think about how we make impact or how we support other people in our neighborhood. Or how we support our parents. And. I think we don't see that as business, but it is a part of our human life. It's about who we are as humans. So to me, I would say humans are closer to nature than to business. And the way that we look at business is just. It's a couple hundred years old, so if it's that young, we should be able to change it to something that is more regenerative, more friendly. It takes more care about well being than about welfare. So to me, business is closely related to economics. And to me, that shouldn't be, business should be more related to [00:49:00] nature. So that's what I think about when you just give me that line. Sarah: Love it. Thank you so much. I might just mention you in the book. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. It's been fascinating. Thank Erno: you. Thank you, Sarah. It was great to be here. Ep 197 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Erno and his work at ernohannink. com and look for his decision making book on his website. Talking about books, remember to join us for the free info session on October 9th if you have ever thought about writing a book. You'll find all the info on humane. marketing forward slash BBA. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. [00:50:00] marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. soon.

PART THREE of SEVEN SECRETS OF SALES ACTIVATIONThe objective of a Customer Bonding campaign is to make your name the one that people think of first and feel the best about.When you have not successfully bonded with your customer, any attempt at sales activation is simply an experiment in direct marketing. This can certainly work for awhile if you're good at it, but it will work less and less well the longer you keep doing it.The world of marketing is full of people who will tell you exciting success stories about high-impact offers that made them a lot of money quickly. But have you ever noticed that all of those stories are told using past-tense verbs?They are telling you about something that happened, but is no longer happening now.Give that some thought.“Have you ever done anything that worked really well?” is a question I have asked a couple of thousand business owners over the past forty years.“Oh, yes!” they answer.“Tell me about it!” I say with bright eyes.After they explain to me what they did and how awesome it was, I say, “Wow, that sounds great! Are you still doing it?”When they say “No,” (which they always do,) I wear the expression of a puzzled puppy and ask, “Why not?”Yes, I am a tiny bit evil. But the simple truth is that I want them to realize their mistake, own it, regret it, and decide – on their own – never to do ask me to temporarily fluff up their sales numbers by resorting to the meth-laced crack cocaine of lies, gimmicks, artificial urgency, ambiguous offers, or misleading messages.It's just not the way to build a company.Few business owners have the patience to win the hearts of the public.But if you have what it takes to become the company that people think of first and feel the best about when they need what you sell, a new day will dawn for you and your business.In golden glow of that goodwill, up to 40 percent of the ads in your Customer Bonding campaign can include happy, healthy, sustainable Sales Activation.These are the ways to do it:Remarkable Item, Remarkable Story.A 30-year client, Kesslers Diamonds, recently conducted a contest among their designers with the winning designer honored by name in a radio ad.RICK: I'm really looking forward to this.SARAH: Me, too.RICK: She absolutely nailed it.MONICA: Are you talking about Jenni Sambolin?SARAH: Yeah, Jenni and her pendant, “The Music in a Mother's Heart.”JENNI: [SFX Door Opening] Hi Rick. Hi Sarah. Hi Monica.MONICA: Hi Jenni!SARAH: Hi Jenni!RICK: Jenni, we're going to produce your pendant design as a limited-edition collector's item and put a few of them in all 8 Kesslers stores.MONICA: Congratulations, Jenni!JENNI: Wow! This is HUGE!SARAH: Jenni, we expect “The Music in a Mother's Heart”to sell out very quickly.RICK: We'll also make a few available online.JENNI: I designed that pendant from the memory of how my Mother made me feel when we would sing together.MONICA: How often did that happen?JENNI: Constantly. We would sing along with whatever was playing on the radio, or sometimes we would watch a musical on TV and sing along with that.SARAH: At just 124 dollars, “The Music in a Mother's Heart” is going to sell out lightning fast.RICK: I'm buying...

Recently, Jason and Sarah hosted a few momentum coaching calls where they taught DoorGrow Mastermind members ways to grow and scale their businesses. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull go over 3 strategies property managers can use to increase their close rate. You'll Learn [01:53] Sales in a post-trust era [07:16] Objection-handling with a newer sales strategy [09:59] Proof bomb testimonials [13:55] One of the most effective selling tools Tweetables “A lot of you are trying to sell the way you learned maybe in real estate or the way that things happen in the past and you're probably finding it harder and harder as well.” “My agenda is to figure out simply, do they need what we have?” “If they can't find a consequence to not starting now, then they won't start now.” “People's trust levels are at an all-time low. And so in selling, I've had to really change things up.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you have any leads, deals, opportunities in the pipeline right now, and you would love to maybe double your close rate or double the deal count that you're getting out of your existing lead flow, I think these three elements combined would easily do that.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:31] DoorGrow Property Managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:50] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason, and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So today we're going to talk a little bit, this is going to be a quick episode. We've got camera malfunctions. I don't know. I don't know what's going on, but I had a coaching call with clients recently, just the other day. We do these momentum coaching calls with some of our clients in the mastermind to get them back in momentum. [00:01:31] Like if they've maybe been disengaged a little for a little bit, or they've been focused on other things, or they're kind of unclear on what they should be doing next, we want to get them back in the state of momentum, which is where entrepreneurs want to be. And so, on that call, I was sharing with them some of the new stuff cause some of them have been a little bit unplugged and we're always adding new, innovative ideas. [00:01:53] So one of the things that I've noticed recently is that sales, we're kind of in this post trust era. I've noticed over the last three, four years, sales has become really difficult. It's become harder to sell using older sales tactics or typical sales tactics. And so I had to change up how it was selling. [00:02:14] And I did a lot of research, a lot of study. I took an empathy course and a communication thing, like seminar thing, and just a bunch of other stuff. And the old school sales, methodology just isn't working here in this post trust sort of era, like nobody believes anything anymore. The news, you can't really trust it. [00:02:37] We all know now the news is fake, right? Voting has been fake. Food's been fake, right? A lot of the medical stuff shoved on us, fake, right? Just saw something about the conspiracy theory or scam of like C sections being pushed on people, which is like ridiculous amounts, like everything's fake. [00:02:56] And so we don't know who or what we can trust. But we trust ourselves and so what I've noticed is people's trust levels are an all time low And so in selling I've had to really change things up and transparently sales was not going really well for us for a while, right? [00:03:13] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:13] Jason: Like we had a lot of clients that stayed in our program, but closing deals was hard.  [00:03:17] Sarah: Yeah, and we didn't focus on sales. [00:03:20] Jason: Yeah, it wasn't really a focus for us. At all. We focused a lot on the product. Yeah.  [00:03:24] Sarah: For like a year and a half maybe almost two years and then by the time we needed to focus on sales, it wasn't as easy to like, just flip a switch as we thought. We were like, "okay, we're ready now. Like, let's amp up sales." And they were like, "oh, that isn't happening the way we thought." [00:03:43] Like, we just thought, you know, like, just pick it right back up where you left off.  [00:03:47] Jason: Yeah. I thought, because I hadn't been doing sales for years. Like I had sales team members, people. So then I was like I'll go back to doing sales. And and the game has changed. Like, and a lot of you are trying to sell the way you learned maybe in real estate or the way that things happen in the past and you're probably finding it harder and harder as well. [00:04:08] I would imagine. So what I've noticed is that we need to shift to a different model. So I shifted to a more question based empathetic model of selling. And I went through and coached our clients on this and they're already starting to get some different results, which is awesome. My close rate using this different methodology has gone through the roof. [00:04:32] So what I've noticed, my close rate has gone through the roof, but what I've noticed is by just being super curious and not trying to sell something. [00:04:40] And I know that sounds wild, like I'm closing way more deals by not trying to sell. I'm just being curious and I'm just being helpful and I'm asking a lot of questions. If I'm on an hour call, I'm spending like almost the entire call just asking questions and letting them talk. If I ask questions in a strategic order, what I'm noticing is that if I ask the right questions, it helps them figure out what their problem is. It helps them figure out what their sort of ideal solution is. It helps them figure out what the consequence is if they don't change this, or if they continue doing what they're doing. [00:05:14] And then at the very end, like, I'll get into the pitch a little bit. But what I'm noticing is people don't know, we assume people know what their problem is. Like somebody comes to you for property management and you're like "they're already dealing with the problem. They're aware." They might be superficially, but they're not aware of the problem. They're not aware of how they feel about the problem. They're not aware fully about what the impact of that problem is. And they're not really even aware of what they want or what the ideal solution is to some degree. They become aware of all of this stuff when you ask them, like in that moment. [00:05:47] And so when I start asking clients these questions, they start, these potential clients, they start formulating this real time. I know NLP stuff. I can see their eyes moving around the right way. I know they're now creating this in their head. They're figuring it out. And if they don't know that they have a problem or where their pain is and what they want and what paradise looks like and the ideal outcomes and if they haven't formulate all this, it's really difficult to close the deal. It's really difficult to get them to move forward towards what they want. And I've also given up focusing on trying to you know, having any sort of agenda. My agenda is to figure out simply do they need what we have? I can see this, but they need to figure this out. So I need to ask questions to help them see that they might benefit from this or that they need something. And they, if they do identify that they need something different or they need help, then the next question I need to figure out is, do they want what we have? And that's it! i'm no longer trying to pitch and spending the majority of the call telling them how awesome our program is and all the cool stuff that we have. I go through and I just ask some questions and then at the very end My pitch is like I just picked three things because there's so much in our program. It was overwhelming people.  [00:07:02] I spent the whole call like "we have this call! We do this! We have this! And we have all this content in DoorGrow Academy and Telegram messenger access and blah blah blah," and like they were just like "oh, well, I need to think about it." And if you overwhelm them with features and benefits, you're going to get that objection every time. What I'm finding is with this new methodology of selling that I've been coaching clients on there's a very few objections. [00:07:22] There's not really anything to object to because you've gotten clear on what their problem is. They've gotten clear on what the problem is that you've gotten them clear on what the, you know the positive future outcome would look like and they're clear on that now, and so that creates this pain gap in between and then you're able to create urgency and one of my big challenges is I wasn't able to create urgency because I didn't get them clear on their problem or what they wanted and what that gap felt like and if the if that was really an issue And then I didn't ask some questions to help them get clear on why does this matter now? [00:07:58] Does this why would it matter to get this going now? Why not change it? Why not keep it the same and by asking that it helps them to identify also urgency and so then adding urgency was one of the big things I was missing because everybody would go through, listen to me pitch. And they'd be like, "this sounds amazing. It sounds like it's solved my problems. It sounds really great, but I'm onboarding a new assistant right now and I'll do it later." Or "I'm dealing with this challenge right now," or "I've got this problem in my business right now," or "it's summer and things really busy," right? And so there was no urgency. [00:08:30] And so if you're running into that with clients, the lack of urgency is caused by a lack of identifying this pain gap and then a lack of helping them identify what's going on. Why does it matter to do this now? Is there any consequence? And if they can't find a consequence to not starting now, then they won't start now. [00:08:47] They may never start. And so, my close rate is ridiculously high lately. And I'm not really doing anything other than asking questions to help them figure out what they want rather than trying to push my really cool ideas like, shove it, cram it down their throat, you know, like old style sales. [00:09:06] So I don't have to deal with objections. I don't have to use manipulative things like, "do you want the red one or the blue one?" And they're like, "I didn't even say I wanted one." You know, you don't have to use any of these old school. Pushy, icky sales tactics. And so what I'm also noticing is it doesn't create sales resistance or ick, this gross feeling in them that they feel like you're like disgusting or they feel awkward. [00:09:30] And a lot of you that have problems doing sales or you have problems with salespeople or you have problems feeling comfortable being a sales person or identifying with that, it's because of that gross feeling that you get when selling, when you're being pushy or manipulative instead of helpful. So I'm actually really enjoying doing sales because to me this feels more like what I love to do, which is coaching so that's one of the things I talked about with our coaching clients. Other thing I talked about with proof. [00:10:00] Sarah: The other thing that you're gonna do right now is take a break.  [00:10:03] Jason: Oh, we're going to take a break and then I'll tell you about proof bombs. One of our sponsors for this episode is Vendoroo. We're hearing great things and getting great feedback. So if you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, check out Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability, Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today by going to vendoroo.ai. vendoroo.ai/DoorGrow and experience maintenance done right. And go to that page, you get a special little perk or benefit. So, check out Vendoroo. We're hearing great feedback. And this is part of the AI revolution right now. If you're not doing stuff like this, you're getting left behind. [00:11:00] So, we're hearing some amazing things. True Submeter. Let me tell you about True Submeter. If you are a property owner or manager, check out True Submeter, the number one water Submetering company in the U. S. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants, and hello to billing for exact water consumption. [00:11:21] With no unit minimum, enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your properties operations and save you money. Plus get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code DoorGrow10. That's DoorGrow one zero. Visit True Submeter today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. [00:11:43] That's truesubmeter. com. Okay. Proof bombs. The other cool thing I shared, it was an idea I learned from one of my mentors, which is Sharran Srivatsaa. Do you want to mention, tell them about Sharran?  [00:11:54] Sarah: Yeah. So, if you guys are in real estate there's a publicly traded real estate company. [00:12:02] Which is insane. Like it's on the stock market. Crazy. It's real. R E A L. Real. He's the CEO. Yeah. Of Real. They're A multi billion, billion with a B, yeah, multi billion dollar company. And they're growing really rapidly. They do some really cool stuff. Thanks to Sharran's leadership. Yeah. [00:12:26] Sharran's a really cool dude. His story's just so interesting. And he like, I mean, he literally came here with like 150 in his pocket and he got robbed on the street. So then he had zero dollars in his pocket and he's just so Well, wait such a cool dude. [00:12:41] Jason: I want to share this story. So he got robbed He had a certain amount of money and then he negotiated with the thief to allow him to just have enough money so he could like do a train ride or get on the train. So he negotiated with the thief, like, and he was able to  [00:12:56] Sarah: "...take all of my money." [00:12:57] Jason: Yeah. "Just leave me this much and you can have the rest." And they did that, like, he's negotiating. This just like, he's just a brilliant guy. And so he shared this idea with proof bombs and he was sharing how he had basically taught this to Alex Hormozi if you've heard of Alex Hormozi or followed his stuff, Sharran's kind of one of the mentors behind the content that Alex Hormozi shares. [00:13:20] And Alex Hormozi used this proof bomb concept in his book launch that went amazingly well. And proof bombs are basically this idea of showing a visual testimonial that you can just see without having to watch the video which uses like a photo and bullet points and some data as evidence and stuff like this. [00:13:39] So I trained my clients on how to create proof bombs, which we have in our pitch deck that I'll pull up sometimes or that we use because it helps get an idea across very quickly using images basically. And so, we shared the idea of proof bombs. And the other, the third idea I shared on these calls was I coached clients on an offer doc because the question came up, "well, what if I don't have a really effective website or I don't have a website yet? I need to wait until you guys help me with that before I can really sell effectively." And then I shared with them what's more effective, even if you have a website or what we call offer documents. If you have conversations with us, we will share one of our offer documents with you at some point, because this gives you everything you need to know or understand about our offer, our program, or what you might be interested in. So we have offer documents for just about everything in our DoorGrow all our different programs our different one day things events stuff like this we have offer documents. So I shared, I coached clients on how to build out these offer documents real effective. [00:14:44] And so those three elements alone will dramatically increase somebody's close rate, like significantly. So if you have any leads, deals, opportunities in the pipeline right now, and you would love to maybe double your close rate or double the deal count that you're getting out of your existing lead flow, these, I think these three elements combined would easily do that. [00:15:06] It'd be significant. Yeah. Very significant. My close rate is just through the roof right now. And if you want to experience some of the sales magic and not even feel like you're being sold to or sold on anything because nobody wants to be sold really, set up a call with our team and we'll help you grow. [00:15:24] We'll help you figure out if we can help you. So, that's basically what I've been up to lately. Is there anything else we should share?  [00:15:30] Sarah: I don't know if I told you this. On the scale call on Friday, Portia actually mentioned that they created offer docs and she's like, "these work so well." She's like, "these are so cool." [00:15:39] She's like, "this is such an awesome tool." So, you're not, you don't run that call, I run that call. So, I wanted to... yeah.  [00:15:47] We've got clients, super excited.  [00:15:49] Jason: We've got clients creating offer documents, proof bombs, and and using that new sales model and they're seeing results. So, just some of the latest stuff just to kind of open up the I don't know, the curtain a little bit and let you know what are some of the things that we're helping people at DoorGrow accomplish and do. Always innovating, always learning and getting new ideas. So that's the advantage of having coaches and mentors, which we have, and we recommend you have. So if you're interested in getting coach, it doesn't have to be us. Go get one. [00:16:23] If you are interested in it being us, then you can check us out at DoorGrow. com. And until next time, to our mutual growth.  [00:16:31] Sarah: Oh, and check out our Facebook group.  [00:16:33] Jason: DoorGrow club. com Join our free facebook community. And that's it until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone [00:16:41] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:17:08] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions. The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues. By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money! Here's what we talked about: The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress. Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions. How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults. The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it. Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it. The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance. Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money. A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd.   --- Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4 [00:00:00] Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work? Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated. Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us. It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00] Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves. Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess. Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that. And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation? You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part. Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part. And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right? Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples. Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born. So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us. This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that. It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States. I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink. You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact. And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy. It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work. You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young. So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that. And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money. Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have. Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover. And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right? It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class. And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts. And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married. And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story? Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself. So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that. Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems. Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your. You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me. And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet? Maybe. Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life. The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out. Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor. And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people. And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's. You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear. We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes, Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that. Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again. So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself. And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level. And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before. Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds. What do you think about that? Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work. So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st. Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that. You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either. Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right? I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy. Sarah: Yeah. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story? Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start. [00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And. Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money. Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this. You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well. Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals. So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors. Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation. Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side. Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community. But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you Emily: tap into your own wisdom. Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it. Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well. Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments? Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself. Sarah: Mm. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious. I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.

There was a recent event where the stock market plunged. Some are speculating about an impending recession. We're seeing the real estate market downturn in real time…  In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the impact the current real estate market and economic downturn will have on property management businesses. You'll Learn [02:10] The current state of the economy [10:00] The real estate market and leasing challenges [21:07] Having empathy in property management [25:03] Real estate investing in a recession Tweetables “In every single recession, new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen.” “Those that have built that ark so to speak, like Noah did, are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just going to float through it instead of drown.” “We always have to remember that property management is a relationship business.” “One of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you want to be in doom and gloom and "the sky's falling and I'm never going to make any money" then you're absolutely right. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made.    [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:22] Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:27] Sarah: That was good multitasking there.  [00:01:29] Jason: You saw that? See.  [00:01:30] Sarah: I saw that. That was one time of you multitasking. So you are capable of it.  [00:01:35] Jason: That was hard, but I had that part of the intro memorized. I was putting my phone on do not disturb as I was reading and she decided to call it out. It's hard, right guys? It's hard for us to multitask. Women have us beat in this area.  [00:01:49] Sarah: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we dominate you here.  [00:01:52] Jason: Yeah, your brains are just wired differently, but we have that singular focus advantage. We can just cut everything else out and focus on one thing at a time. [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, speaking of focusing on one thing at a time, let's get into the show.  [00:02:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:02:07] Sarah: So we were going to talk about some doom and gloom today.  [00:02:10] Jason: Yeah. So we just saw the stock market tank, like a thousand points, right. Pretty wild. And friend of mine who runs a company, Jeremy Pound, he had mentioned, I saw his post online. [00:02:23] Shout out to Jeremy. He said, "now's the time to reach out to your real estate investor clients and say, 'Hey, look, your property didn't go down by a thousand points and never will,'" you know, something like that. So I thought that was clever. But yeah, real estate, probably a better investment right now than long term but a lot of investors are still in general freaking out. There's a recession that seems to be looming and coming or is already here depending on who you listen to. And so yeah, the sky is falling and chicken little's been shouting which is the news media and like everything bad is coming and so is this going to be how's this going to impact property management? [00:02:59] Might be a good question to start with.  [00:03:01] Sarah: Yeah, I think one of the things that we're already seeing is we have been seeing in many markets at least a decline in prices if you are trying to purchase a property right now. And we are no longer, no matter what market you're in, because some markets have still held pretty steady, no matter what market you're in, we're no longer in the days in which you list the property on a Monday, you get multiple offers and it's accepted for well over the list price the same day. [00:03:40] We're not in that situation any longer. So how does that affect property management? Well, on the real estate side, investors right now should be, if they're not, but they should be looking. Because things are on sale right now.  [00:04:00] Jason: Steals.  [00:04:01] Sarah: So as you think about what is your favorite store of all time? [00:04:06] Let's ask you, what's your favorite store ever?  [00:04:10] Jason: Amazon. Amazon. Okay, cool. I spend a lot of money there.  [00:04:12] Sarah: That's great. That's actually, you know, I wouldn't have thought of that. Because I don't, for my brain doesn't equate it to a store, but I guess it is.  [00:04:18] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:19] Sarah: I love it. I love Amazon. Okay, cool. Amazon. So if Amazon had a sale where everything was 30 percent off, would you probably buy some stuff? [00:04:29] Jason: Oh yeah, I'd buy a ton of stuff.  [00:04:31] Sarah: What if it was 55 percent off? 60. Oh. 70.  [00:04:36] Jason: No brainer. I would stock up on so much stuff.  [00:04:39] Sarah: You'd be like, "I don't even need this, but what if I do?"  [00:04:41] Jason: A million supplements. I would like.  [00:04:43] Sarah: Right.  [00:04:44] Jason: I'd be healthy set for the next year.  [00:04:46] Sarah: You'd be buying everything. So investors, this is your call. [00:04:48] Hello, real estate is on sale right now. So the savvy investors, they already know this. They're super excited right now. The savvy investors are not freaking out. The savvy investors. They know. This is where millions of dollars can be made and in fact in every single recession new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen. [00:05:18] So people who are like the accidental investors and they've got that property they've been hanging on to and they're just waiting until the market gets hot enough and then they'll probably sell it. But in the meantime, I guess I'll hang on to it and rent it out. They're going to freak out right now. [00:05:36] They're going, "Oh my God, what if rents dip even more? What if vacancy rates are longer? So I can't fill a property or my property manager can't fill a property in a week like they used to be able to?" It was just churn them out and hurry up, get another one in there, find a warm body, put them in. They're like coming in droves. [00:05:54] That's not the situation anymore. And they will freak out. But the investors that understand the situation that we're in and the market at where it stands. Oh man, they are excited. Yeah, I'm excited right now. I'm like great tank, baby. Let's go . [00:06:12] Jason: So the big news out there like right now is Warren Buffett decided to sell off a ton of stock like half of his stake in Apple like some major things and he doesn't make very many moves, right? [00:06:24] He's like this minimalist in making Purchases or selling he's like he's the he's got the diamond hands, right? And He's now sitting on a cash stock pile 277 billion  [00:06:39] Sarah: billion with a b  [00:06:40] Jason: he's just hanging out with cash He's waiting for the bottom to hit because he knows he must know that things are going to get worse.  [00:06:47] Sarah: Because he's gonna go shopping. [00:06:50] Jason: Yeah, he's gonna he's definitely waiting to go shopping is my guess And so there's going to be some deals to be had And that may mean the real estate market could be getting worse. Could be getting a lot worse, perhaps. So, and if that's the case, then savvy investors right now should be stacking cash, right? [00:07:09] Property managers, you should be stacking cash because you should be a savvy investor. And looking for these deals. Now we've been through a recession before here at DoorGrow. Historically, what I've seen happen whenever there's a recession, the real estate market kind of dries up. Things get tough for real estate agents. [00:07:26] So a lot of real estate agents get squeezed out. So they find other jobs. And there's quite a few of them that think, "well, why don't I do property management?" And a lot of you listening, maybe during the last recession, that's what you did. You started a property management business. Maybe that's why you're now listening to this podcast and you have a property management business that you've probably, hopefully grown by since the last recession to at least 200 units or something, but maybe you haven't put enough focus on it. [00:07:53] Who knows. Those that have built that ark so to speak like Noah did are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just gonna float through it instead of drown. And you're going to see a lot of people scrambling to start property management businesses. That being said if you are a real estate agent, you're struggling you're like, "you know what? I don't really like the hunt and the chase of real estate buying and selling I would be really interested in property management," check out our foundations program. It's pretty great And it's super affordable. Hit us up, learn about DoorGrow Foundations. It's going to help you avoid thousands of dollars in costly mistakes and stupidity in getting started.  [00:08:33] Sarah: Since we're talking about avoiding costly mistakes, it would be a great time to talk about our sponsor.  [00:08:39] Jason: Cool. So, let's talk about Vendoroo. All right. Awesome new tech. Are you tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination? Meet Vendoroo, your AI driven, in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details. So you can focus on growth schedule demo today at Vendoroo that's a vendor, V E N D O R O O like a kangaroo, get it? Dot AI. vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. We've got some clients getting great results with that. [00:09:33] Yeah. So check that out. We're in an AI revolution right now.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Get in.  [00:09:38] Jason: We're hearing great things from our clients about this so far. I mean, it's been programmed for the last 12 years and has over half a million work orders already in it and never forgets any detail you tell it about the property and is intelligent. [00:09:53] And they put a human layer between that. So it's really cool. All right. Yeah. Back to the topic at hand.  [00:10:00] Sarah: Let's also talk about how things look right now in the property management world because you're like, "yeah, Sarah, things are on sale right now. Cool. But, man, it's just tough being a property manager right now. It's harder than it normally is." And a lot of times what we're seeing is again in certain markets right now is well rents are lower and that means property managers typically make less especially on that percentage part that you're charging so if the rent is 5, 000 versus if the rent is 1, 000, simple math will tell you, yes, you'll make less when the rents dip. [00:10:40] The other part of that is occupancy. So just like we used to be, what, two years ago, three years ago, we used to be able to list a property for sale and we would have multiple offers very quickly and it was no problem getting it sold. And the rental market has shifted a little bit as well. So we used to go, "Oh, we have a vacant property. Well, let's market it. And then we're going to have multiple applications and we'll get it filled really quick. It could be in a day. It could be in a week, but we know it's going to happen and we're not really worried." And now we're seeing that cycle take a little bit longer. So the rents are lower and the renting cycle of getting the applications and finding someone who's qualified, that is taking a little longer, so now it might take a few weeks. And if things are really bad, that might take a few months.  [00:11:38] Jason: So in some markets, vacancies are up right now, rents are lower, the rent cycle's taking longer, so leasing in general can be a bit more of a challenge. [00:11:47] And to be fair, a lot of property managers in the longterm rental management game, I've had it pretty easy, right? When you look at like multifamily stuff like this, 2020,  [00:11:58] Sarah: 2021, like none of y'all were complaining then, right? Super easy then.  [00:12:03] Jason: When you look at the multifamily industry, like getting tenants in place has always been a challenge in a lot of these multi family places And so they focus on this. [00:12:12] They're more aggressive. They put a lot more attention on this and so It may mean that you're going to need to put some greater attention on the leasing side of things to be a bit more competitive and a bit more aggressive to get these properties seen to get these properties like showed, to get these properties rented out. [00:12:33] So what are some things that they can do to kind of deal with this challenge with leasing right now?  [00:12:37] Sarah: Well, number one, I think the most important thing that you can do here is you may need to look at changing your processes depending on what they are in the leasing process, specifically regarding showings, right? [00:12:52] So if you're like, "well, we do two showings a week." This is how I used to do things. "I do two showings a week and one is at this day, this time. The other one is at this day, this time. This is when you can come and look at the property." Well, if we consistently aren't having anyone show up and then now all of a sudden we have someone who's interested and they can't make any of those showings, you may need to change your processes, right? So now we might need to look at "how can I offer more flexibility for someone who is qualified and interested? How can I offer more flexibility?" And that doesn't mean, "oh, I'm just going to be on call 24 hours a day as a leasing agent, and I'm just going to jump when somebody says, 'hey, I want to look at this property.'" [00:13:34] That is not what you're going to do. So, can we do self showings? Can we use electronic lock boxes? Can we have a team member just go to the property, unlock the door, stand and wait, and then lock it up? Because that's what I used to do, right? "Well, they have to be licensed." No one has to be licensed to unlock a door. [00:13:56] Unlock the door, stand there and wait, and lock up when they're gone. That does not require a license, right? So how can we offer more flexibility so that people who are interested are now able to go see the property when it's convenient for them? Because they might work 9 to 5. So 5:30 might be impossible because at 5:30 I'm stuck in traffic. Right. So I might need a 7 o'clock showing or a 7:30 showing, or I might need to do something on the weekend. But on the weekend, you know, I have all my kids stuff and soccer camp and all this stuff. So like finding those little spots that do work for them. "Well, great. What day and time would be good for you because I can see if I can fit you in" and, or if you have the electronic lock boxes that opens a whole host of availability. I think they shut off at a certain time. So you can't go at like midnight. Right? But, then you have a whole bunch of available slots. And they get to choose what's convenient.  [00:14:57] Jason: So, maybe even a step earlier, which I love the idea, like, you can start to be more flexible. [00:15:04] And maybe that could be helpful is just to get more eyeballs on properties maybe optimizing the listings and so there's several ways to optimize listings and a lot of property managers probably been a little bit lazy about this. Some companies put a lot of detail on this but this is a competitive advantage if you have better photos. We've had companies on like box brownie and others where they will improve or edit the photos there's so many ai tools now as well for photos and so if you can get your photos optimized and improved without lying without like, "Hey, look, the carpet and the walls are all perfect." And AI made it that way. And it looks like garbage, right? That is not going to like bode well for you. But yeah, if you are getting better photography, Improving and optimizing the listings, making sure the descriptions are really clear, adding video tours to these. One of the big things I would look at I loved seeing on any listings when we were looking to buy a rental property to rent out or anything. I love seeing the floor plans  [00:16:05] Sarah: That's so easy. [00:16:06] Jason: Just I love seeing the floor plans like then I could go "oh, this is how it all fits together. This is how it works," you know and all these photos that are taken from the corner with a wide angle lens and make everything look giant. That stuff's probably not serving you. It's not showcasing reality And so I think there's going to be a greater push with ai and fake humans and all this stuff, there's going to be a greater desire for humans to get reality. Everything's been fake news, fake everything, fake voting, fake food, right? Everybody's waking up to this So we need to stop trying to make everything look better than it is. We need to start showcasing reality. And so it might mean photos instead of wide angle from the corner, maybe more like we've done with our airbnb taking photos straight on. [00:16:52] Sarah: I think with Airbnb, that works really well. The types of photos I've put on our Airbnb, I would not.  [00:16:58] Jason: You wouldn't do on real estate?  [00:17:00] Sarah: What I would do though is I don't want to use the wide angle lens. That's going to make a little tiny closet look triple its size.  [00:17:08] Jason: Sure.  [00:17:08] Sarah: So that I think is something. [00:17:10] But still maybe from the corners. Yeah. And I would because when you're trying to either sell or rent a home, you are looking like, "Hey, imagine your family in here. Look how big the space is. Look how great it is. It's beautiful. Lots of light." But don't advertise there's lots of light if there's not lots of light, right? [00:17:27] So be realistic in it, but still do things to make it look attractive. That being said, a step even before the listing is really do some research in the market. What's available? "So, okay, this property, I can rent it out. I know what it looks like because I'm familiar with it, but this property is competing against other properties. What do the other properties in my market look like?" If all of the other properties have a swimming pool and you're the one without a swimming pool, you may have a problem, right? So if all of the other properties, they have certain amenities. You may need to look to see, "Hey, is it possible for us to also get these amenities?" [00:18:10] Right? So you might need to look at doing some updates to flooring, kitchens, bathrooms, and it may or may not be something that investors are able to invest in right now. But the important thing is, "Hey, this is in fact, an investment."  [00:18:29] Jason: Sure.  [00:18:29] Sarah: So right now, what we might need to do in order to be more attractive and in order to get those higher rents and in order to find a qualified tenant sooner, we might need to put some work into the property to make it look more attractive. [00:18:42] Now, right now that might seem really painful. However, it is an investment, which will give you an ROI on the property because even though rents are low right now, everything moves in cycles in real estate and the stock market. So we're at a low right now, but we're not going to stay there because if you recall, just two short years ago, it was booming. [00:19:08] So see how quickly things can change? So that means that in even two years from now, this can very easily be something that "Hey, rents have bounced back." And now this calls for a higher rent.  [00:19:24] Jason: So price is also going to be a factor right? And being able to get and convince your owners that "hey, we're going to need to drop the price. It's not just about cashflow in having a rental property." We've talked about our ROI calculator on previous episodes that have been helping clients close deals But being able to showcase the life the investment long term of the property, even if it's not cash flowing right now, it's still a good investment to keep can be effective and just getting the price low enough sometimes is what it takes to get at least out like that's always going to be a significant factor.  [00:20:01] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:20:01] Jason: Related to that, our next sponsor is True Submeter. So with True Submeter, what's interesting about this is you have multi family properties and you're trying to fold the utilities into the rent and your rent looks higher on listings than other places where they're not including the utilities, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. [00:20:21] Here's a way to solve this. Attention, multifamily property owners and managers. Discover True Submeter, the number one water submetering company in the U. S. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants and hello to billing for exact water consumption with no unit minimum. Enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your property's operations and save you money. Plus, get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code DOORGROW10. That's DoorGrow one zero. Visit truesubmeter.Com today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. That's truesubmeter.com [00:20:57] Another way, maybe to get the rent down, at least on the surface and the utility separate. All right. So, I think another factor in solving the leasing challenge... I've been studying sales a lot lately and one of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy. [00:21:25] And so there are a lot of tenants that they will pick you, or pick getting a property from your business because you showed care, you showed empathy. You weren't an asshole. You weren't rude to them. You didn't make them feel unimportant or like a number and so just showing a little bit of care and showing a little bit of empathy is often the determining factor why somebody picks something over anything else. "Well, I got along better with them," or "they were nicer to me," or "they seemed like they actually cared and I could imagine them as a landlord" or "they answered their phone."  [00:21:58] Sarah: "They answered the phone when I called them, that was helpful." [00:22:01] Jason: And so adding in empathy or making sure that the people that are having, like working on the leasing and you know, showing the property and communicating with the tenants are team members that are feelers and are empathetic and show care would probably be a little bit more effective in getting placement would be my guess. [00:22:22] Sarah: One of our clients, I think he's outside of the Chicago area, Ed Kirch. He was saying in his area, there's like two, 300. New apartment buildings like being built and they're like large multifamily like apartment complex buildings. And then of course, they're not going to work with like a small mom and pop. [00:22:40] They're like, they're corporate owned. It's a big corporation that manages it.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, they'll be brand new.  [00:22:47] Sarah: They're nice. They're pretty. And he said, "and sometimes the rents are either the same or even less than the units that we're managing." And he's like, "man, it's really hard to compete with that." And I said, "well, is it though?" [00:23:04] Because yes, there are always going to be the people who just want the bargain. They're like, "well, if this thing is $100 and this thing is $110, I'm going to go with this cheaper thing. Even if the $110 thing gets me better service, I don't care. I'm just all about the money." So if you're attracting those cheapo tenants, good luck managing those. [00:23:27] Have fun. Have fun with that. But if you're looking to attract great tenants, price is one factor, but it's not the only factor. So again, it's the relationship. And we always have to remember that property management is a relationship business because we have a relationship with the client and we have a relationship with the tenant. [00:23:51] So if one or both of those fails, it's going to be really hard for us then. So just by building that relationship and you do not need to be friends with them. You don't need to take them out for pizza and beer but just by being available to communicate with. Now again, don't go too far with this. [00:24:13] This does not mean you're at someone's beck and call 24 hours a day. "Oh, i'm going to be glued to my phone and as soon as somebody calls i'm going to answer right away." No, but it does mean that you are available. You are responsive. It's not a hundred percent of the time. Sometimes you might need to call someone back, but it's can they get in touch with you? And do they feel like 'I'm talking to a person who actually cares about me and my situation, or do I feel like I'm talking...' we've all had these conversations where you can just tell they're like, "hurry up. Come on, just sign the stupid application so I can be done with you and move on to the next thing that I'm doing. I don't really care at all, but I just want to make the money. So like, would you hurry it up here, sweetheart?" Right? So there's a big difference on how you're communicating with people as well. [00:25:03] Jason: Got it. So is there anything that you think will be shifting related to recession related to the owners? Like maybe money gets tighter for them. Inflation is going up. They're having a more difficult time paying for some of the repairs on the properties. Maybe it would make sense for some of the property managers now to be communicating with the owners, like, "Hey, set aside cash. Things are getting more expensive. Make sure you have the funds in order to take care of things related to this rental property, to weather this, you know. What do you think?  [00:25:31] Sarah: Yeah. I think that's fair for sure. I also think that, I mean, for me, that's always something that I do because I've been in situations where we needed a cash call and we had no cash available, so now we're really in hot water. So I do that anyway, but I think right now, especially just having those conversations like, "Hey, and just so you know, like this too shall pass. So you might not be in the best situation right now. Maybe cash flow is not happening. Maybe we're cash flow negative. But this too shall pass, right?" [00:26:06] So it, again, it comes in waves. It comes in cycles. And I think that's even more important at this point to discuss why investing on cash flow alone is just not a great strategy because if you buy a cash flowing property right now that can change in a year or two years or five years, right? [00:26:31] And vice versa. So right now you might buy it and it's not going to cash flow at all, but in two years or five years or eight years, then all of a sudden, "wow, we have a lot of cash flow happening." So everything comes in cycles, but it's important to understand cashflow is just one piece of the pie. It's not the entire pie. [00:26:48] Jason: Right. Like even great stocks will lose money in the short term.  [00:26:52] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And real estate is a long term game. It's not, "I'm going to buy it today and sell it tomorrow and bank a million dollars." [00:27:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:01] Sarah: Can you do that in certain situations? Absolutely. But is that going to be the normal experience that people have? No.  [00:27:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:27:10] Sarah: So I think yes, talking with your owners about the other pieces of the pie or pieces of the equation. "Well, let's look at the tax benefits that you get," right? Because a lot of times people don't even understand really what it means to be able to take your losses, losses on paper, from real estate to apply them to your active W 2 income. [00:27:38] So you can pay less in taxes just by owning a real estate, a piece of real estate. That's amazing, right? You're getting the depreciation. You're getting appreciation because even if it's not appreciating currently, it will over time appreciate. Every property over time appreciates. [00:27:55] It's just a general rule of thumb. So it might take a couple years to get the appreciation, but you will get it. And now you're building up equity in an asset that you can tap into later. And if your tenants are paying some or all of your mortgage for you, that's amazing. Where else can you get something where you're going to take out a loan on something, but somebody else is going to pay that loan for you? [00:28:21] Even if it's not all of it. Even if your mortgage is 2, 400 a month and you're like, well, the 1022, but then I have some other expenses on top of it. That's great. They're still paying a large chunk of your mortgage for you. And again, things change. So right now that might be your situation and you might not cashflow and that can change very quickly in the future. [00:28:43] Because again, back in 2020, 2021, people were cashflow and really great, especially if they had bought. If you buy in a dip and then things spike, you're sitting pretty.  [00:28:55] Jason: So maybe to sum it up with your existing owners, now is the time to help them build their ark right before the storm hits. With the intention for yourself to protect your portfolio, to protect your rent roll and to make sure that you keep that up and as healthy as possible. And You know, and look into, you know, there may be investors you have in your portfolio clients that you have that they're sitting on a bunch of cash. They're waiting for the deals to happen. And then you have investors that they're like kind of struggling. They're already like kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back might like float down and land on their back like any moment now. And so there may be opportunities to keep the properties in your portfolio, but move them over. [00:29:39] I've been hanging out a bit with the the founder of a blanket, which is a cool platform. Maybe we'll have them on the podcast here shortly, but there's different methods to keep your portfolio, even if the owners are changing. So you keep the properties. And so that's some things to be strategically thinking about as well. [00:29:58] So, well, I think we've covered several things. Is there anything else to prepare people listening for the doom and gloom, get them maybe focused on the positive.  [00:30:08] Sarah: Just in the height of the market, one of the strategies I used was tapping into my current investors. Is, "are you looking to pick up more properties?" Can I partner, you know, two or three investors together so that they're able to get more properties? And anyone who's looking to get out, can I shift that to someone else in my portfolio? And to get referrals. Like, "Hey, this is going well for you. Do you know anybody else that might be interested in doing this or might want to purchase a investment property or have already an investment property?" [00:30:42] So, and that, in the height of the market, that worked really well for me. So right now they would work even better. It would work even better. So even if you're like, "well, I only have like 20 clients and that's it." Plenty. That is plenty. You have an untapped gold mine. So if you want to be in doom and gloom and the sky's falling and "I'm never going to make any money and rent rolls are down and vacancies are longer and my investors aren't interested and people are losing money and I'm going to make less and oh, this sucks..." [00:31:18] Then you're absolutely right. That is the situation that you're going to create for yourself. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made. So you can choose what you do with this weird time that we're in right now. [00:31:38] I know what I'm going to do.  [00:31:40] Jason: You know, during the Great Depression, some of the greatest companies were made. It was the companies that decided to double down on their marketing efforts doubled down on their growth experts and not put their head in the sand and freak out that the world and the sky is falling and so choose your frame I think sums up what Sarah's saying. [00:31:59] I think it's great mindset. Choose your frame. Either you're going to believe in the opportunity and see all the positives. Why is this positive? Figure that out or you're going to view this as a threat, be scared, kind of tighten up, And you're going to watch some people make a lot of money and pass you by and stack a lot of doors. [00:32:19] There's going to be a lot of opportunity for growing a property management business. I think a lot. So, and if you want to capitalize on that, reach out to us at DoorGrow. And I think that's that's it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth, everyone. And if you are interested in connecting with us, you can reach us at DoorGrow. com or check out our free online facebook group community at DoorGrow club. com. And we'll give you some free gifts for joining. And hopefully you'll get on a call and chat with us and we can figure out if we can help you grow and scale your business significantly. So until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Pauliina Rasi to explore the art of effortless and authentic social media post writing. We dive into why writing for social media can feel daunting, and how you can overcome those challenges by finding your unique voice and style.  Pauliina shares practical strategies for brainstorming fresh content, maintaining consistency, and offers a sneak peek into the powerful frameworks we'll cover in our upcoming workshop.  This conversation is designed to inspire and empower entrepreneurs to write with more ease and flow, aligning your social media presence with the principles of humane marketing. Here's what we talked about: + Why writing social media posts can feel so daunting + How to find your unique voice and style in your social media posts without feeling like you're copying others + Strategies for brainstorming ideas and generating fresh content for your posts + Tips for maintaining consistency + And a sneak peek of the frameworks that Pauliina will share with us in our upcoming workshop on September 4th - https://lu.ma/f64hyojw And so much more... --- video1182592561 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Ep 195 intro: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast. I hope you're doing well and had a wonderful summer. Maybe didn't even notice that I skipped one of the episodes this August, but I'm back. I'm back with another conversation. Today's conversation fits. The P of promotion, and I'm talking to Paulina Razzi, a communication strategist and [00:03:00] copywriter about effortless and authentic social media posts writing. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, well, a big warm welcome. We're all about humane business, humane marketing, humane selling. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, that's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's and help you with your foundational clarity for your marketing and business. So, my friend Paulina Razzi is a writer, communication strategist, and trainer. With 20 years of experience as a journalist and communications consultant, she helps [00:04:00] businesses, projects, and professionals communicate their messages with clarity and confidence. Paulina's work focuses on breaking writing strategy into actionable pieces so that professionals and entrepreneurs can turn into. Effective content effortlessly and cut through the digital noise to share their message with people who matter. When not typing on her laptop, she can be found on the slopes of the Swiss Alps or spending time in nature with her family and friends. Yes, you guessed it, uh, Paulina is local here in Switzerland and we've actually, we're one of these people who have met in person. So that's always extra special. So here's what we talked about on this episode. Why writing social media posts can feel so daunting, how to find your unique voice and style in your social media posts without feeling like you're copying others, strategies for brainstorming ideas and generating fresh content for your posts. [00:05:00] Tips for maintaining consistency, and then a sneak peek of the frameworks that Paulina will share with us in our upcoming CoLab workshop on September 4th. So without further ado, let's dive in. Sarah: Hey Paulina, so good to see you and hang out with you for a bit to talk about social media posts. I'm very excited to have you here. Pauliina: Likewise. Thank you for having me, Sarah. Sarah: Wonderful. So we are doing a collab workshop together. And, uh, this time the topic is all around kind of like very pragmatic information around how do you structure and write, uh, those social media posts, which we know a lot of people are struggling with, right? It's, yeah. Is that also the feeling that you get? Like, because I think people are struggling with several things around this social media [00:06:00] presence kind of thing. Um, one of them, I think is consistency, but let's talk about consistency later. Let's first talk about this idea of. writing these posts. What do you see when you work with your clients? Why is that such a struggle for people? Pauliina: Well, writing is terrifying. I've been writing in one way or another, most of my career, and I can also relate on the emotional level to, to that struggle. And I see it in my client's lives and I experienced it in my own life as well. If not on a daily basis, regularly anyway, and that would, that would be maybe my first message that even though you are a professional writer, you can write a lot, but you can still sometimes feel that struggle because there's a lot at play there really when you're trying to write, especially when you write about yourself and your own work. And, um, and, uh, it's, it can be sensitive. It can be, [00:07:00] it can make you feel vulnerable. And there's a lot of authenticity at, uh, at play when you're writing about yourself, but, uh, but it can be, it can be overcome as well, when you, when you work through, through it, uh, well, enough, uh, enough, and when you develop different capabilities, capabilities around that. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, I hear you. I think, I think there's. There's this fear of really truly showing up and. You know, I have this, I I've, as you know, I've been, uh, my first business was a LinkedIn consultant. So I've been growing up on LinkedIn. And to me, it's not scary at all to completely make a fool of myself on LinkedIn anymore. But I have, uh, like one very good friend who's been on LinkedIn for years as well. But she's still. still kind of feels like, Oh, but this is the professional network. And can I really, truly be myself? And w you know, and so I think a lot of people have [00:08:00] that with LinkedIn, especially, um, and of course also with, with other platforms, but LinkedIn kind of has this heaviness to it still because of how it came about. And it's changed a lot, but. I think it's also because a lot of maybe our clients moved out of the corporate world, and so they had to kind of like, wear this professional mask, and now they're going into their own business, coaching, consulting, and all of a sudden they're, they're asked, To show up as authentic and, and it just kind of feels weird. Right? So I think one of the big things is like, how do I find my voice on these platforms? How do you help people find their voice? Pauliina: Absolutely. And I think you're onto something there, especially when you say about LinkedIn and how rapidly the platform has changed. So many of us might be feeling that we aren't, we haven't really fully caught [00:09:00] up yet. And, um, and when you, when you feel that way, finding your voice and knowing. What part of your voice you actually want to project might be a little bit tricky, and it comes to down to defining your strategy and setting your goals. When I see people struggling on LinkedIn or on other platforms, if we backpedal a little, is it can be for the lack of strategy. So not really knowing What to say what they're trying to achieve, not not being sure how they're going to reach that. That's a big building block. And if you don't have those questions, it might be very hard to do with confidently the other reason or the other part that people might be struggling with is the confidence that you that that you also maybe your friend might be suffering from not having the confidence or the courage to say what they want. Know what they need to say. And then the third third element. There is the practical practical part like how am I? How am I going to say, say [00:10:00] exactly, but you need the three or three of them so you can be consistent. You can be confident and that you can be clear about the message, knowing what you're going to say, finding the inner courage, the confidence to to project your voice and then the practice finding the ways the strategies, the template, the frameworks that work for you. And when you have all. All three in place, it gets a lot easier, but I would also like to say that it's okay if it doesn't always feel easy. Like some of, some, some of us might feel like I don't care if I make a complete fool out of myself. I've already done that. And for others, I have clients who've been very, very visible, very present for years, and they still get the wobble of it every, every now and then. And that can be part of the process as well. And that can be, that can be okay. Sarah: Yeah, I always encourage my, my change makers to, to embrace that role. Like that is truly the role of a change maker and change is not easy. Right. [00:11:00] And so it, it, it almost is part of the change making is that you have to put that message out there and yes, it's not going to be easy, but. It will get easier because everything gets easier by practice. So exactly. And you can Pauliina: get better at February. It might still feel scary at times, but I think it's also a good thing to go towards what's scary or what you're afraid of, because it tells people that you're doing something new. And it's also a part of finding that voice. If you, if you never feel scared, if you always feel super comfortable, maybe you're not fully using your voice or spreading your message. So that's, um. That's something to keep in mind as well. Sarah: Yeah, that just gave me goosebumps. I think that's such a good point because a lot of people who come to me for humane marketing, they tell me that they've just gone through the motions of marketing, meaning they've just gone through, you know, posting things kind of like they. Took some [00:12:00] class and some guru told them, well, this is how it works. This is how you have to do it, but without helping them to find their own voice. And so it's these empty posts that just feel like marketing messages. And, and that is it. Look, totally less scary, right? The scary thing, like you mentioned at the beginning is the vulnerability. Uh, but that's where the human connection and that's where you really resonate that this frequency level and not just like, oh, there's another marketer or there's another copy writer. So. You're totally right. It's like, if, if you haven't, if it doesn't feel scary, then ask yourself, well, are you really truly putting yourself in those posts or, or not? Yeah. Pauliina: Exactly. Exactly. And often what we often forget on social media is that authenticity and that connection, it's much more important than perfection. Like, you don't need to be the best writer out there. You don't need to write as well as [00:13:00] maybe some professional writers, writers do, but you need to have something, some, something of you in that message. So it resonates. And that's often a discussion I have with my clients and people in my network as well, because they might come to me and ask, like, could you write this for me? I could, but actually most of the time they do much, a much better job writing themselves for themselves. Even though it's maybe a little bit less. Perfect on the surface, or maybe the turn of the phrases aren't as polished as they could be, but their authenticity and their voice and their experience shines through. And it's much more powerful and it's much more important than the perfection, perfection of the message. Sarah: Yeah, that's so true. I want to come back to the three ingredients you shared, but what you just said also makes me think of AI and how You know, we could totally just now use ChatGPT or any other tool to have all our posts written [00:14:00] and we know we're good to go. But what you just mentioned is, is like, well, how is ChatGPT going to really, truly bring in your authentic self? It can, like, I'll have to admit it does a pretty, pretty good job, but you still have to come up with the. The topics you guys still have to come up with, you know, the experiences, Chachapiti doesn't know your life, you know, these little moments of storytelling that you share to connect. Uh, it doesn't know that. So, um, you can use probably AI as a tool to help you kind of fine tune some of your posts, but I would, yeah, I would probably say, don't just Give it all over to ChachiBT and say, Oh, just write my post because that's kind of probably the risk that we're going to run into that everything just feels like perfect. And, and then there's, yeah, there's less of that authenticity in there [00:15:00] again, I'm very much pro ChachiBT, but yeah, I wouldn't just hand it over, uh, to, to write my posts for me at all. Pauliina: No, I wouldn't either. And I think it can be a great sparring partner. It can be a great, uh, well, not a person, but a great tool to ask, like, how would you approach this topic? I'm writing about this. Am I missing something? What kind of an analogy would you use to describe this? Or kind of like spar with that? Especially if you work alone, it can be super helpful, but it only does a very mediocre job in writing for you. And like you said, like, it doesn't know the words you You use, it doesn't come up with creative expressions very often, unless you ask specifically. Um, so you need to, you, well, you need to leave some space for your personality. Definitely. Sarah: Yeah. All right. So getting back to the three ingredients you mentioned is confidence, strategy, And then the actual frameworks and just how to, to follow. So we're going to cover the how to and the frameworks [00:16:00] in, in our uh, workshop on September 7th. Uh, so if you're listening to this or watching us, we'd love to have you join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Um, But we want to cover maybe, uh, uh, I think we talked a fair amount, uh, about confidence. Um, let's talk a little bit about strategy. So I think one of the things people struggle with is that they just, you know, open whatever social media platform it is and then go, what should I write? So how can we better approach this? How do you, Yeah. Help your clients with strategy. Pauliina: Well, the first question I'm helping my clients answer is what is your message? What is it that you bring to a table? What is it that you can help people with? What are your unique capabilities, your talents? What is special about you? So everything starts with what did you have? To get, then there's of course, a [00:17:00] question of who you are speaking to writing too. So you can tailor that message to be relevant for them. And then we come to a question of channels, like where to be present, where to reach those people, but it all starts with, what do you have to share? And, uh, focusing on that and nailing and nailing that is so crucial because if you don't know what you are going to say, what do you, what, what is the message you want to get across? Well, everything else becomes just very random. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of this chicken and the egg thing that we often have. And, and it's funny because people like when I look at beginning, uh, coaches or, or, or business owners in general, they immediately want to go to social media, right, without doing the foundational work, the getting that clarity. We can be, yeah, we can be present on social media for years and years and nothing ever comes [00:18:00] out of it if we don't know what, what we're offering. We don't know who our clients are. We don't know where they are in their journey. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of information that needs to be in place before we ever go on social media. And we can actually kind of hurt. our reputation if we go out there too early and then looking from the outside in and look, it kind of gets completely confusing for people who are like, one day she's talking about this, the other day about that. It's like, what is she doing? Like, I Pauliina: don't get it. So exactly. And we can hurt ourselves in the process by burning ourselves out and spending a lot of energy on something that's not moving us forward. As forward at all. Like it is a little bit of this throwing spaghetti to a wall and seeing what sticks which can be if you just start shopping on social media channels before setting up a foundation. And then when you set up the strategy, it's really [00:19:00] deciding on what kind of spaghetti you're going to use and how long you're going to cook it for before you start start throwing it on a wall wall and that can really change everything. Of course, there's always that aspect of going out there and just trialing and seeing what works, but it's a whole another world when you do that strategically, and don't just just start somewhere and do exactly what you just described there. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, so true. So, I want us to give just a little sneak peek about the frameworks, because I think that's what people are, you know, it's nice to have the security of some kind of structure. And yes, we're still saying, well, Use the structure, but infuse your own voice, right? Don't just follow it to the dot, but I think it gives people that security, uh, to, to know, oh, okay, there's some kind of structure that I'm following. So without giving everything away, [00:20:00] because we would love people to join us for the workshop, but tell us a little bit about, um, these frameworks that you're using. Pauliina: Confidently and frameworks. Indeed, they can bring this additional layer of security. It's almost like a safety net. Always have something to fall back on and when you have your strategy sorted out, you can start using these templates in a way and creating maybe even your own templates and frameworks in a way that still allows your internal light light to shine. But one of the favorite favorite frameworks I like to use is it's called stair s t e a. And that's, um, that is something I like to use, especially when tapping into the emotional, emotional aspect of writing and emotional aspect of our reader's lives, because it allows us to look at the situation they're in, uh, the thoughts, the emotions, uh, they have about the situation, the actions they take, and then how you can help turn that, uh, [00:21:00] around so they get different results. So it's, uh, it's, it's a network I like, like using, especially when trying to reach, uh, reach, uh, the emotional aspect aspect in my readers, readers lives. And, uh, it's, uh, very practical in the sense that even though it sounds like a lot of, a lot of acronyms to begin with, when you really are really, um, use it a few times, you, uh, you can create a good library of templates for yourself. So Sarah: what do the letters stand for? S-T-E-A-R-S Pauliina: stands for situation, whether what, what's the situation, whether reader might be in t is, uh, about the thoughts they have about their situation, and e is about the emotion. So that allows you to put yourself self in their shoes and approach this, uh, the situation from their point of view. A refers to actions. What are the actions they typically take because of the thoughts and emotions? And what are the actions you could help them take as the professional [00:22:00] if they followed your guidance? And R is about the results. What are the results they get? And what are the results they could get if they use your method? So that's why it's, uh, it's, it can be very practical for, especially for service, service business owners and people selling different services. Sarah: Mm, yeah, that, that helps a lot to, to first kind of project yourself into the client's shoes and then, you know, using empathy and compassion, understanding their situation, the thoughts, what they're not saying as well, and then bringing it back to you and say, okay, um, here's the action I want you to take. And also. Here's a possible solution I have. Um, I love that. Yeah. And, and again, we're, we're going to apply that during our workshop and actually have a breakout room where you ask people to, you know, apply this framework and give them guidance on how to write a post and, and then [00:23:00] we can share them in the chat and you'll get feedback. I think, I think one thing we're doing well in our community is that we, you Create the time and space to apply, uh, what we're learning and not just, you know, content overloading our minds and go, Oh, there's like 10 frameworks and this is how it works. And, and now, you know, go off on your own and try to figure it out. I think, uh, we need more spaciousness and time to be able to actually integrate, uh, these, all this mind stuff that comes our way. So, um, Yeah, I really look forward to having this kind of hands on experimenting with your framework. So that sounds great. Any last tips on consistency? Because that's another thing that I think people struggle with is like, oh yeah, they can do like, you know, a month and then they get [00:24:00] frustrated and tired because there's not enough likes or not enough comments. Um, and then they. You know, feel like, oh, I tried it and it didn't work. So what would you say in terms of consistency is a good, good advice. Pauliina: When it comes to consistency, of course, the basics are the first building block. Again, the strategy, the confidence, having the, having the tools in place. So having that strategic block in place is, uh, is crucial because it's hard to be consistent if you don't really know where you're going and how you plan to get there. The other, uh, thing that's very important are routines. So how do you build your weeks and months so that you have time to create a content that Is consistent to you often when I start working with my clients, they come to me saying like, Oh, I could easily publish every day on LinkedIn or every other day. And then I asked, like, how long does it take you to create that content and they realize it might take them four hours, which is a big time [00:25:00] commitment for someone else who has other things on their plate as well. So being looking into your weeks and months and seeing whatever routines you can build in there so that you can really get. Your content done. And finally, being realistic with what consistent means to you. Consistent is not necessarily daily. Often on many channels, it means weekly, because if you don't do things often enough, you lose momentum. But it's good to remember that your consistency doesn't need to be someone else's consistency. It's always better to start slow and easy. Maybe even if If it means that you publish weekly on LinkedIn or even less often and then build it up from there so that rather than the going the other way around so trying to do it to do it daily and then falling off the wagon and getting all depressed and having to start all over again next month. Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, it's, it's something that you could do more if you [00:26:00] enjoy it. And if it comes, becomes easier and easier, but if it's a drag, then why would you want to do it, you know, more often, uh, I mean, our, our businesses are supposed to be joyful and if social media posting is not your favorite thing in your business, well then reduce it to once per week and instead of Just going through the motions really take the time to create a more meaningful post rather than just a, you know, marketing slash sales post. I think exactly, Pauliina: exactly. And I think it's so important to work on things that are meaningful and rewarding for you as well, especially if you're a one person business, it changes when you start having a team around you, because then you can start outsourcing things that don't come. Naturally, but especially when you're on your own, you're writing about yourself. You are the face and the voice of your business. It's so important to do content and create content that's meaningful and natural to you as [00:27:00] well. Sarah: Yeah, Pauliina: yeah. Sarah: So good. Well, I really look forward to this. session in our community. Um, again, if you're listening, this was just kind of a teaser. I hope we gave you enough content still to, to make you understand how, yeah, how Paulina is approaching this topic. I only choose my workshop collaborators, uh, because we have aligned values. So definitely feel very good about that. So hope to have you join us on September 7th, uh, 2024 humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Paulina, any last words of wisdom regarding social media? Maybe, maybe I think I have listeners who are like, I'm just done with social media. So what would you tell them? Pauliina: Well, do whatever works for your business. If social media doesn't feel good for [00:28:00] you for any number of reasons and not good goes beyond like basic, basic wobbly feet, find other ways to connect with, with your audience and with your friends. Social media is not mandatory. It's a fantastic place to test different ideas, uh, to share your voice, share your message. But there are plenty of others if that doesn't feel like an authentic way for you to connect with the people you're trying to reach. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for doing this and I can't wait to our workshop together. Pauliina: Thank you for having me, Sarah. And I look forward to diving in into all this with a human marketing circle in September. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. You too. Bye. Ep 195 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Paulina and her work at paulinarazzi. com. That's Paulina with two [00:29:00] I's. Uh, so P A U L I N A R A S I. com. She also has a free guide with content ideas and you find that at paulinarazzi. com forward slash free. And if you'd like to roll back your sleeves and get to know Helena's frameworks so you can apply them week after week to your social media posts, then join us for the next CoLab workshop on September 4th. I think I said September 7th once during the episode. So no, it's September 4th, a Wednesday, and you can sign up for a donation at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. These workshops are hosted in our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. And if you'd like to join that and then get access to all the collab workshops, you can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash [00:30:00] circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much, as always, for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and your business. and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

When hiring a new team member in your property management business, one common mistake can cause you to lose out on potentially the best candidates. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss why having experience in property management is not a necessary qualification for the people you hire. You'll Learn [01:11] The Myth of Needing Experience [04:19] More Important Than Experience: Culture Fit [13:59] You Need a Better Hiring System [19:17] What to do if You Struggle with Hiring Tweetables “If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that?” “If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming, either way, you're overpaying.” “Even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training.” “If people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying.  [00:00:06] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:45] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:06] Now let's get Into the show.  [00:01:08] All right. What are we talking about today, Sarah?  [00:01:11] Sarah: I wanted to talk about this thing that keeps coming up and I've seen it two times in the last week is hiring on experience.  [00:01:21] Jason: Oh. [00:01:22] Sarah: Everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I would love somebody who's experienced and they already know the industry and they already know my systems and they know how to do things. And that would be fantastic." [00:01:32] Jason: People listening are going to go, "well, yeah, of course you want people with experience. It would be dumb to have people with zero experience, right?"  [00:01:38] Sarah: Wrong!  [00:01:39] Jason: Okay. Okay. So let's explain this. What are you talking about? [00:01:43] Sarah: All right, so the first thing that I'm going to say, as soon as I say it, it'll click right? If we are lucky to hire someone who's already familiar with the industry, who's working in the industry. Maybe they understand some of your tools, your software, perhaps some of your processes. You're narrowing your candidate pool to such a tiny little minutiae of a candidate pool. How many people do you think there are that have experience in property management that are now in the job market?. Right? Like, "Oh, I'm only going to hire somebody if they have experience in property management, or I'm only going to hire somebody if they understand how to use Appfolio." All right. So we went from here to here, tiny little segment of the market. [00:02:33] The other thing I'll say about this is if you find someone who has experience in the property management industry, and perhaps even in your software and your processes. Why is it that they're looking for a job? If they were so great, would someone not have snatched them up already?  [00:02:49] Jason: What if they get them to come from another company? [00:02:52] Like they convinced them? [00:02:53] Sarah: Let's talk about that. I'm glad you brought that up. I'm so glad. It was like this morning, we were having a conversation and I had mentioned this to one of our clients who's currently trying to hire people based off of experience. So here's the other problem, and we've seen this a couple of times, businesses stealing other businesses' team members and employees. There's one case that I'm thinking of in particular that kind of getting a little nasty. The two competitors are trying to take what they can, clients, team members, whatever they can, market share. They're just trying to take anything that they can from the other one. And one of them snatched the operator, which is really. [00:03:33] Not a good person to lose in your business.  [00:03:36] Jason: Yeah. No.  [00:03:36] Sarah: Why was that able to happen though? She had experience, right? So the new company is like, "Oh, this is perfect. She understands property management. She's got experience. She knows how to do this." [00:03:46] Jason: I mean, most entrepreneurs would think it's just about money because entrepreneurs always look through the lens of money. So they'll think, "well, she probably just got a better offer."  [00:03:54] Sarah: And in this case, I bet she did.  [00:03:56] Jason: Okay.  [00:03:56] Sarah: And the problem that we're overlooking here is we're skipping the most important part, which is looking to see if they're a culture fit. [00:04:06] And then the second most important part is looking to see, are they the right personality fit for the role. And then and only then do we want to look at their skill set and experience and do they have the intelligence level to be able to learn that particular task.  [00:04:18] Jason: Right? This is one of our frameworks, the three fits, culture fit, skill fit, personality fit, and culture fit, most important. [00:04:26] So, yeah, I agree. If people are not the right culture fit, then by default, you're overpaying for your team members, period. Because either they're underperforming because they don't really believe in your business or buy in. So their secret goal really is just to get paid as much as possible and probably do as little work as possible would be their ideal, right? [00:04:48] And so that's if they're not a culture fit. If they're a culture fit, they buy into the vision, they believe in you, they're excited to work for you. They want to have an impact. They have a motive besides just getting paid. And so, yeah, they're not a culture fit, it's guaranteed you're overpaying for that team member. [00:05:03] Because either they're crappy or you're having to like compensate them a bunch of money in order to keep them on board at your business because they really don't enjoy being there. So then you end up overpaying in order to keep them. And if people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily. [00:05:22] Sarah: Absolutely. And that is why this particular operator was able to be swayed. So if you've got people who are a culture fit, if you've got people who really believe in the company, in you as the business owner, in the vision and the mission, where you are wanting to go and what you are wanting to build, if people are truly bought in and on board with that, that makes all the difference in everything that they do. [00:05:52] So can you hire somebody with experience who understands how to use Buildium or Propertyware or your phone system, whatever it is, and your ticket system? Yeah. And they can come in and they can do the job and it would be a night and day difference If you had somebody who truly believed in your company and you had to just train them to do those things and then they were able to do that, they're going to outperform the person who only has the experience every day of the week. [00:06:22] Jason: Okay. So can you share an example? Because you, you mentioned some clients were having issues with this. So like, let's tie this in with maybe a story.  [00:06:31] Sarah: Yeah. So it was just last week I was talking with Andrew and he had recently hired a couple of team members. I think he hired a BDM and an admin and there was maybe someone for maintenance. [00:06:43] I don't remember who the third one was. So he had recently hired these people. Already he's looking to replace them because either they're not working out or they're moving on. So his BDM, she is a real estate agent as well. And she's like, "Oh, well, I'm just actually going to go focus on real estate. I don't think I'm going to do all of this." [00:07:02] And it's been under maybe two months, maybe three months. So not a very long time. And he had mentioned to me, "yeah, so I've got this one person in mind and their experience." And as soon as he said experience, I went, "uh oh, okay. He's hiring the wrong way. He's hiring completely the wrong way." [00:07:20] So I had asked him, I said, "all right, so just out of curiosity, when you're talking with people, when you're looking at resumes and your screening candidates, what are the things that you're looking at? Like, what do you look at first?" And he's like, "well, I look to see, do they have experience in the industry? [00:07:35] And specifically, do they already know how to use my tools?"  [00:07:37] Jason: Yeah. So that's first. Yeah. That's a big red flag. And a lot of people listening might not get that, but that's a red flag.  [00:07:43] Sarah: Huge.  [00:07:44] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:44] Sarah: So aside from the fact that, like I said, your Canada pool is so tiny. I mean, if there is a person I would love to meet you, who, when you were in, you know, kindergarten and elementary who said, "Oh! When I grew up, I want to be a property manager. When I grew up, I want to be a leasing agent for a property management company. I would love to do that. That's my dream job."  [00:08:06] Jason: Right?  [00:08:07] Sarah: Who? That doesn't happen. Right? So people kind of work their way into property management, but it's not the dream that you typically have when you're a child trying to choose your career path. [00:08:20] Jason: Yeah. And that's because the industry as a whole has an awareness problem. There's not a lot of people aware of property management and there's plenty of roles in property management that different personality types would enjoy doing or would thrive in. But people are not thinking of the industry. [00:08:36] And so, yeah, looking for people with experience, I think would be really limiting,  [00:08:40] Sarah: yes, very challenging. So you need to find somebody who has experience in the industry that already will be hard. And then, even if they have experience in the industry, then you're going to say, "Oh, and they need to have experience with my specific tools and software that I use." [00:08:57] That becomes harder.  [00:08:58] Jason: Right. [00:08:59] Sarah: So I had said to him, I said, "well, all right, I have experience as a leasing agent. Would you hire me?" Because I might know how to do leasing. I do. I do know how to do leasing, right? But I know how to do leasing my way because when I was running my company, I knew how I did leasing. [00:09:17] But that doesn't mean I know how to do leasing your way. So even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training. And a lot of times I think this is what happens is people go, "Oh, I would love to make my life easier and hire somebody, and then maybe I don't have to spend a whole lot of time training them on a tool or a system or how we do things because they already know how to do it." Even if they know the tool, they still don't know your processes. They don't know your way of doing things. So you will still have to train them. Now, it is possible that the training is easier if you don't have to explain how to use the tool, if they already know how to do it. [00:10:04] use it and they're familiar with it. Yes, that part of training becomes easier. It does not mean though that training will not still be a one to three month process, experience or not.  [00:10:17] Jason: Right. So, yeah, so you're saying a lot of people will try and hire somebody based on experience because they're trying to avoid having to take the time to train somebody. [00:10:27] Sarah: You can hire me. I can come into your business. And I can screw it up just as well as somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can. Why? Because even if I know how to use that tool, I know how to do it the way that I did it. I don't know how to do it the way that you do it yet. [00:10:45] I don't know your processes. I only know how I did leasing, and how I did leasing might be very different than how you do leasing. I know how I did sales, but that might be very different from how you do sales. I know how I onboarded clients, but that might be very different. I might do your leasing and you would go, "Sarah, what the hell? Why did this happen?" [00:11:09] "Well, I don't know. That's just how I used to do it." So if you hire someone who has the experience and has the knowledge, you still have to train them.  [00:11:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:11:18] Sarah: And training is the most important thing that you can do when hiring. If you hire anybody and you completely forget or just choose not to train them. [00:11:30] It is going to be a train wreck.  [00:11:32] Jason: I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs we're in the mode of like doing things quickly and we're impatient. And so we get lazy sometimes when it comes to onboarding team members. We're like, "yeah, just, here you go. We throw them to the wolves." [00:11:45] Sarah: Baptism by fire. Yeah, figure it out. [00:11:47] Jason: Yeah. And lazy onboarding is not, a great strategy, right? It's going to take work regardless of the person that you bring on. And there's advantages when they don't have the skill or the experience in that you can make sure that they're doing it the way that you value and the way that you like. [00:12:05] So there can be a benefit.  [00:12:07] I think for sure if they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying. If they're not the right personality fit for that particular role you'll just constantly be frustrated and training them and trying to onboard them will just be a demoralizing experience for you because it's impossible. [00:12:26] Like you'll be trying so hard to get them up to speed. And I think this is where people have experienced this and they're like, "well, I just need to go find someone with experience." But the real problem is they're not the right personality to do the job well. If somebody is the right personality, they would naturally be good at it. [00:12:41] They would be inclined towards doing it. You wouldn't have to motivate them or inspire them to do it. They would want to because they love doing it. It's aligned with who they are. And otherwise there's always going to be some serious friction. Culture and personality are off, there's going to be lots of friction. [00:12:57] And then even related to skill fit, if they're not intelligent enough to do the job, because some jobs require a little bit more Intelligence, right? You know, like the best team members are usually the best at problem solving. That's an intelligence challenge. You can give them all the skill, like here's the processes, et cetera. [00:13:15] But if they can't problem solve because they're an idiot, like then it becomes a real problem because you have to then do all the thinking. You need intelligent people. And so that's part of the skill fit. So you need all three. What's interesting about this. And we've talked about the three fits before on the podcast is you can't create culture, personality, or skill and intelligence. [00:13:37] Like you can't really create those. You have to go find it. You have to find somebody that has all three and just finding somebody that has one of the three is not going to be a fit. They have to be all three, or they can't be in your business. Or they're just going to be screwing things up and there's going to be so much friction so much waste. You're going to be spending way too much money. You're going to be spending way too much time trying to onboard them and it's going to be a mess. [00:13:59] Sarah: I agree.  [00:13:59] Jason: Cool So, in seeing these clients and people dealing with hiring, how do we solve that? How do we solve  [00:14:05] Sarah: this?  [00:14:05] You have to take the hiring process and flip it backwards. So the first thing you have to do is you have to determine if they're a culture fit for your business. But in order for that to happen, you have to know what your culture is and it has to be defined, which is why, and this is where people fight me, is when they want to implement DoorGrow hiring, they're like, "I desperately need to hire somebody. I need somebody like, please help me with hiring." Right.  [00:14:29] "Send me your cultural documents." [00:14:32] " Oh, I don't have those." [00:14:33] Sarah: "Then I can't help you find a good hire. I can't do it because it's Russian roulette." So if you don't have your culture defined, meaning I need your company core values. I need a decision making guide. [00:14:47] I need a client centric mission statement. I need your personal why, and I need your business why. Without those things, I cannot help you find someone who's going to be great because I will never know, nor will you, are they a good culture fit? If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that? [00:15:06] Jason: So what you're saying is people need a better system. They need a hiring system. And most don't really have a good system. I guess everybody has a hiring system, it's just usually a pretty crappy one. Building intentionally a really intelligently designed hiring system, which is what we do with DoorGrow hiring is a game changer for a business because hiring is one of the biggest challenges I've seen even in multimillion dollar companies with friends. And this is something we've gotten really well dialed in a DoorGrow, but this is a constant challenge for most businesses. And until they figure it out... I was talking with one of our clients yesterday ,and he added like 114 doors in like the last month or so. And so he's just like, his business is growing crazily. [00:15:49] And he's this amazing client because he does everything we tell him to do. He's got an operator. Now they're using DoorGrow OS, like they're crushing it. And I was talking with him and his big challenge right now is maintenance technicians. He had four, he lost two. So he's now trying to hire and In having a conversation with him, I had to shift his mindset that he's no longer right now, a property management company. [00:16:14] That's the business he thinks he's in. And because he thinks he's a property management company, he doesn't want to focus as much on the hiring piece. That's not the business that he's in, but I had to help him see right now, the business that he's in, is in order to scale, this is his biggest constraint is he's going to consistently need to be bringing in more maintenance techs into his business. [00:16:36] And so I said to him, I said, "your business for right now, until you get this solved, your business is not a property management company. Your business is a maintenance technician talent acquisition company. That's the business you're in." And until he accepts that he can't solve this problem. And so most businesses, this is a big constraint. [00:16:55] And for him right now, it's the constraint. And once he gets this solved, once he gets this dialed in. So that he becomes good at hiring and onboarding and getting up to speed with maintenance technicians. And he was planning on just trying to replace the two. In coaching, and we were talking about, you need to bring on probably four. [00:17:13] You need at least four in order to find one, maybe two that are going to be good and give them a working interview where you have them do some work to see if they can perform. And this means he needs an engine where he's consistently every month bringing in a good amount of maintenance technicians and has a system for doing this. [00:17:31] And so. Businesses need if you're wanting to scale and grow quickly, you have to have systems in place. And one of the key ones is a really solid hiring system that allows you to get culture, personality, and skill. And that's what we've developed with DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow ATS, our applicant tracking system. [00:17:49] And we talked about optimizing the ATS just for those particular candidates because they don't want to go through a more lengthy application process like we do with some candidates, you know, these maintenance techs and then vetting them through our AI assessments and stuff like this afterwards to assess them for problem solving because that's his biggest challenge. [00:18:06] He says, "my best maintenance techs are the problem solvers." I'm like, "that's an intelligence problem." So we have to figure out a way without doing illegal things, you know, or that you're not supposed to do you have to figure out a way to assess or figure out that they're intelligent. [00:18:21] And one way would be a working interview. Another way would be, you know, the AI assessment tool that can assess cognitive ability, you know, stuff like this. And that would come after he does a culture interview with them first. He was looking for skill and that's the challenge. [00:18:35] So it was good. Super common. Everybody always goes, Oh, I need skill. I need experience.  [00:18:41] Yes, and you do want people that have some experience would be great, but having people that have the intelligence level to absorb information quickly and to learn and the problem solve is way better than having somebody that has a ton of experience, but is terrible at adapting and is dumb. [00:18:59] Any day of the week. And so they will get up to speed and supersede somebody with a decade of experience if they're slow and not able to learn anytime. So, all right. This is a good topic. Anything else we should say about this?  [00:19:14] Sarah: That's what I got.  [00:19:14] Jason: All right, cool. Hopefully this was helpful for those of you listening. [00:19:17] If you're struggling with hiring. A lot of you have made these mistakes, right? You've hired, you've had people churn out. You're like, "it's hard to find good people." These are the excuses we hear from people that have a crappy hiring system. "There's no good people out there. It's tough in my market. We can't find good people. Millennials don't want to work," you know, but whatever, right? "I just pay people, why won't they just do what I f*cking tell them to do?" You know, whatever it might be. So, that's just a sign that you have a bad hiring system or that you just have terrible culture or you have bad onboarding. [00:19:50] Sarah: Or no culture.  [00:19:51] Jason: No culture to find. No culture. Yeah. And so, we need to get these things cleaned up in your business or your business is constantly going to be a prison for you. It's going to be really hard until you get a really good team and you have really good culture in your business defined, business is hard. [00:20:07] And this is where I see a lot of people get stuck between two to 400 units where they have an entire team and they're the most frustrated and usually the least profitable per unit they've ever been because it's the team and they can't see it. They're like, "I have a good team." You have a team that are willing to take your money, but are they a great team? [00:20:25] Super easy way to know... if you have an entire team and you've got two to 400 units or more, and you have been unable to scale it past 600 doors for the last three to five years, you've been kind of stuck there and you are still wearing hats that you do not want to be wearing. [00:20:43] And you're sometimes asking, "why won't my team think for themselves?" You're the problem. This is the problem. You are showing up as the wrong person in the business and you have bad culture and a bad hiring system. And if you want to get that solved, reach out to us at DoorGrow. This is very simple to solve. [00:21:00] It's not too difficult. And we can probably get most of that mess cleaned up in like a single quarter, like 90 days. So reach out to us. We'd love to help you out. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. And if you're wanting more, if you stumble across this, maybe on YouTube or somewhere else, make sure to like, and subscribe and join our free Facebook community DoorGrowclub.Com. You can get to it by going to DoorGrowclub.Com. And until next time to our mutual growth by everyone. [00:21:26] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:52] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

A lot of the property managers we talk to who want to grow say the same thing, “I just need more leads.” In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the 6 major leaks that property managers can have in their sales pipeline and why they don't just “need more leads.” You'll Learn [06:22] 1. Positioning [10:14] 2. Perception [11:19] 3. Presence [15:30] 4. Pricing [18:18] 5. Purpose [20:24] 6. Pitch Tweetables “Does it make sense to turn on the hose full blast if there's all these leaks?” “People want to work with a specialist. They don't want to turn over their biggest assets ever and their financial future to somebody that's dabbling in property management.” “If your reviews are good, it backs up everything that you say in your sales pitch.” “Are you clear on your personal motivations for why you have this business beyond just getting money?” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Get these things dialed in and shored up and what you'll find is: you may not need nearly as many leads. [00:00:05] You won't have to spend nearly as much money on advertising or any money.  [00:00:12] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:32] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGroww, and now let's get into the show. [00:01:19] Sarah: We wore DoorGrow colors today.  [00:01:20] Jason: Oh, we did. For those  [00:01:22] that can see us. We're wearing DoorGrow colors. It's not on purpose. Yeah. Green and blue. All right.  [00:01:27] Sarah: I wanted something easy. It was like, let me get a comfortable dress that looks nice, but it's comfortable. Ladies know what I'm talking about. [00:01:34] They're like, "yeah, those are awesome. That's this." [00:01:37] Jason: Okay. It's good to know. So we were talking about what we should talk about today. And one of the things that I've been doing on sales calls in conversations with potential clients is taking them through a diagnosis and diagnosing the front end sales pipeline of their business. [00:01:56] The challenge is a lot of people come to us that want to grow. We're called DoorGrow. So we certainly can help with that. We've been doing that for a long time. One of the things we've noticed though, is that a lot of times people think, "I just need more leads." They just think they need more leads. And some of you are just going to be listening to this, so I'm not going to do a drawing, I'm going to explain what I would usually draw, but I usually draw like a spigot, or a faucet, or whatever you call it, and a hose attached to this, and this long hose, and then a like a plant pot at the end of this hose that you're trying to water a little tree or something. [00:02:30] And I usually put fruit on it because that's your business and you want to get something from it. Like you want it to bear fruit, like make you money or something. Right. And so we've got this tree we want to grow and we've got this pipeline. This is our sales pipeline, this hose. And we think we just need to turn on more water. [00:02:46] Right. It seems to make sense. What I've realized though, over time is we used to do lead generation for property managers. Like that was like a offering that we had, a core offering that we had for our clients. So we would help them just turn on the hose, like full blast. We'd help them turn that on and they wouldn't be able to get business. [00:03:05] They wouldn't be able to get enough water to grow their business. Like it wasn't working and it wasn't the leads. It wasn't the lead generation necessarily. It was the hose. They had like all these major leaks that were preventing it. So over time, I started to see like, they'd be like, "well, it's not working." [00:03:19] I'm like, "well, you're not even answering your phone," or "you're waiting 24 hours before responding to a lead. And it's only good for like 15 minutes." And there was just all these leaks and problems. And there were some bigger, more macro level problems in their sales pipeline. [00:03:32] Like their pricing was terrible, so it was off. Or their branding was off. And so people were like, "well, yeah, but they look like a real estate company," or their website was awful and it would send traffic to their website and it was just leaking money. And so the fluid, if you will, that flows through the pipeline. [00:03:51] Is five currencies, time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. These are what you have to invest. And if you're shelling out a bunch of money, time, energy, focus, all of these things, right into the pipeline because you're just turning it on full blast, it's just going to leak out and you're just wasting all of that. [00:04:09] You're wasting time. You're wasting money. You're wasting your energy. Right. And it, and a lot of businesses are like, "I just need more leads." So I call this the leads myth. And so we found it to be effective is to start looking at the business and if they come to us saying, "Hey, we want to grow." [00:04:24] "Okay. How would you like us to help?" They're like, "we need more leads." [00:04:27] "okay, you may need more leads, but first, does it make sense to turn on the hose full blast if there's all these leaks?" [00:04:34] "What leaks?" Right?  [00:04:35] "Okay, well, let's take a look at your business and see if you have any of these." So we thought today we would get into some of these leaks so you can self assess and figure out, all right, how's my business doing? [00:04:43] We're going to do the quick, super fast version of this. And I recommend you set up a longer call with our team so we can go through this. Okay?  [00:04:52] Sarah: Oh, or if you want the short, shorter version and you're like, "Hey, I want to see it. It's visual." then go to YouTube on our YouTube channel. We have a video that we created about this and our hose just died and like, I think it froze over the winter and we went to go turn it on and everything was leaking. So then we were like, "Oh, Well, before we throw the hose away let's make a video because this is what we talk about all the time." [00:05:16] Yeah. So we did make a video. So if you want to visually see this and watch Jason get water everywhere and make a big mess, then watch a video.  [00:05:25] Jason: It's pretty goofy. So if you wanna laugh at me or make fun of me, that'd be a good one to watch. So just go to youtube.com/doorgrow and go to the playlists that we have and then go to funny videos and I'm sure you'll enjoy laughing at me and Sarah laugh at ourselves, especially. [00:05:44] All right. So let's chat about this, these leaks. So these are some of the things that may be preventing you from closing as many deals, and you may have plenty of leads, but you may not be closing as many as you could be. And so these are some of the leaks. So, there's six major leaks that we focus on in our Rapid Revamp class, and if you're interested in this class where we help you shore up all of these leaks so that you can more easily grow more quickly without even changing whatever lead generation stuff that you're already doing or what's working, this will increase the output of what makes it through the hose and to grow your business Okay, so the first leak at the very beginning, and these are all blind spots the most businesses have is Positioning and so in positioning, we focus on the brand branding And so what are some of the things related to branding? [00:06:37] Sarah: Well, the big one that we see a lot, and we did a video about this too is what is the name of your company? Is it something "real estate, realty, properties, investments, assets, solutions," things like that. So if any of those is how your brand name ends. then that could be a very potential big issue in your branding. [00:07:05] And you could be turning people off before they even decide to have a conversation with you.  [00:07:10] Jason: Yeah. People want to work with a specialist. They don't want to turn over their biggest assets ever and their financial future to somebody that's dabbling in property management but is primarily focused on real estate. [00:07:21] So if you have realty real estate in your name, for example, you have a significant leak here. So if a hundred percent flow through would be the ideal, you have maybe a 50% right at this stage. There's this there's loss. Is your name generic to the location? For example, you're Phoenix Property Management in Phoenix. [00:07:39] Or is it generic to the industry like property management inc? Sorry guys. Or real property management, right? These things are really difficult to remember right generic names. And that hurts word of mouth and it hurts people telling people about your business and all that kind of stuff, right? [00:07:55] So is it unclear that it's property management? Like Sarah mentioned, like maybe we're "Prestige Properties or Radiant Rentals." Radient Rentals, "oh, do you do bouncy houses and like chairs and stuff for weddings?" Right. So there might be confusion there in the marketplace, or do you have a overly common name? Could be a problem. Like lighthouse, just Google lighthouse property management, and there's like a bazillion companies all over the place that want to be a lighthouse. [00:08:19] And so they all get mixed up and confused, right? Because property management is a kind of a global competition. Even if it's only focused on a local market, right? You're getting investors from overseas sometimes you're getting investors from out of state. And so if they're trying to find you, "Oh, well, they said their name's light- oh man. There's a lot of lighthouse. I don't know." Right. And these are just some of the challenges with branding that we teach in our branding secrets and helping clean that up.  [00:08:45] Sarah: Yeah. And one of the worst things is if they're looking for you and then they find a competitor instead, or they find the same or a very similar named company, but they're nowhere near your market. [00:08:59] Because then what happens is you're now connected to this other company. Even if you're like, "well, I'm in Tennessee and this other company, yeah, but they're in like Nevada." Well, Oh, okay. You would think the distance alone would be enough to separate the two, however, we have to remember that sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people don't read, right? [00:09:22] So if an angry tenant from that other company is like so fuming and they get on and they're like, "I am leaving a horrible review" and it hits your company just because you have a similar name and they didn't bother to read. Now we have issues.  [00:09:36] Jason: And there's lots of other challenges. You could have your name, like some clever misspelled name, like a barbershop called haircutz with a Z. [00:09:43] Sarah: Like my biggest pet peeve.  [00:09:44] Jason: Like there's lots of ways you can screw up branding.  [00:09:47] Sarah: Spell things correctly. Don't get cute.  [00:09:49] Jason: Or acronyms. Acronyms aren't super effective. Like PMI. Sorry guys. All right. So let's go to the second leak. So give yourself a rating on that. Like just a quick judgment, like on a scale of zero to a hundred, how effective is your brand in being memorable and in word of mouth and whatnot? [00:10:07] So maybe it's 50%. Maybe it's totally off in the category. Maybe it's worse. Maybe it's like 20, 30%. Next perception. This is reputation. How are you perceived online? What are your ratings maybe on Yelp, on Google, on Facebook? How many reviews do you have in relation to your competition? And what is your rating? So quantity diversity, do you have reviews on lots of channels? How do you compare to your competition in your local market? Because people are going to check you out. They're going to judge you. And if your reviews are bad, even if everything else you do is amazing, this can put, be a significant clamp in the hose. [00:10:45] And if your reviews are good, it backs up everything that you say in your sales pitch.  [00:10:50] Sarah: And if you have no reviews at all, this is also an issue. Yeah. So sometimes people go, "Oh, well, like I'm brand new. I don't have any reviews, so I don't have that problem yet." It's still a problem. It's just a problem in a different way. [00:11:02] Jason: So let's go to number three. So give yourself a rating on that. Zero to a hundred. Where are you at in relation to your competition? Are you the best reviewed company in your market? Are you like somewhere in the middle? Are you the worst, right? Or do you have no reputation, right? How are you perceived? [00:11:17] All right. So you have a number there. All right. Number three, presence. This is the website, right? Your online presence. So there's a lot of different roles related to the website. I'll, I can throw out a couple, a few real quick. If you really want to grade your website, and not just like how much does Google like it? [00:11:36] Not that if you want to grade your website, how much people like it, how effective it is for capturing business, right? How big of a leak do you have in the hose? Go to doorgrow.com/quiz and take our website quiz and grade your website. Do this, you might have a brand new, beautiful, amazing website and it's like just hemorrhaging and leaking money. [00:11:59] All traffic feeds to the website, right? Your reviews feed to the website. Everything goes there. Your ads feed to the website. Take a look at this leak and get your grade and see what it is. And we're happy to then get on a call with you and tell you why your website sucks, help you figure out like how to make it better. [00:12:16] So, couple of quick things. It should answer three core questions like above the fold when they first land on the page, what you visibly can see in on the screen should answer that there are three core questions, which is, "do you do what I need in the place I need it? What do you do and where?" And second, "why should I choose you to do it over your competition?" And then third is "what do you want me to do?" There should be some sort of call to action. Most websites don't even have those three really basic things, three basic questions that people have. So that's a great starting point And then there's other things like how many menu items do you have? [00:12:54] If you have too many menu items, it actually decreases conversion rates. Do you have like distractions like social media icons and different things trying to send people away from your website which can decrease conversion rates and getting business and leads. Do you have trust symbols and social proof and testimonials and things that increase conversion rates? [00:13:14] Do you have a lead capture form on the page? We've studied this for well over a decade. We've studied this the top website companies that target and focus on property management try to copy our stuff without understanding the psychology behind it and try and copy our designs. [00:13:33] I believe we build the most effective and the most beautiful websites in the industry. And so if this is an issue, DoorGrow can help you with this. So, talk to us and get a new website.  [00:13:44] Sarah: Before we move on, I just learned this yesterday, I think yesterday or the day before. So if your website was once amazing. [00:13:51] And you're like, "no, my website is great. It's so awesome." But it's old. Then it's not doing you the good that you think it is. And maybe at one point it was, maybe it was so fantastic. But now all of a sudden, if things seem like they dried up a little bit, it could be that it needs a little bit of a refresh. [00:14:10] And apparently the shelf life on a website is about two to three years and then it needs. To be redone.  [00:14:17] Jason: Yeah, this is true. I've forgotten about this. I'm totally aware of this, but I just, I forgot that other people don't realize this. And so websites have a shelf life just like fashion does, just like anything else does. [00:14:30] And so websites start to look stale or out of date or old and create the perception of being old too. So a lot of people don't perceive that their website is actually looking stale and looking old and causing issues for them, right? [00:14:45] And people will perceive you, "Oh, this company's more modern and we're up to date or fresh or is with it or gets it, and this company it looks like they've been in business forever, maybe. They're using old techniques and they don't know what they're doing, right? So make sure your business is no older than maybe two to three years. [00:15:03] It's probably time.  [00:15:04] Sarah: Not your business. Your website.  [00:15:05] Jason: Yeah, sorry.  [00:15:06] Sarah: If your business is three years...  [00:15:09] Jason: just get rid of it. So if your website, usually people will go until about five years. By five years, it's usually visibly painful, and this is usually where business owners reach out to us for a new website. [00:15:22] If your website is five years old or older, it's due. And you know it, like you can look at it and go, "this doesn't look fresh." All right. So good point. All right, next is pricing.  [00:15:32] Sarah: I love the pricing calls that we do. They're so good.  [00:15:35] Jason: It's such a magic trick. [00:15:35] Sarah: And also people get stuck here for a really long time.  [00:15:39] Jason: Yeah, so most pricing, just to be clear, is set by companies focusing on the worst people in the market. They're focused on the cheapos and they're focused on what they can capture through internet marketing, which are the worst leads. And so the cheapos are really price sensitive. [00:15:56] So it creates this sort of downward race to the bottom in terms of price. So, most people typically do a 10 percent in most markets. Maybe a little less than that in really high rent markets, or they'll do some sort of flat fee. So, Most pricing is not good and it's probably similar to what everyone else in your market is doing, and so you look the same as everybody else. [00:16:17] So there's unique methodology in doing pricing. And so we focus on our unique blend of what we call a three tier hybrid pricing model, which focuses on three different types of buyers psychologically and creates a proper incentive to get more high rent properties, less lower end properties and it lowers your operational costs, right? [00:16:41] Because the higher rent properties generally have a lower operational costs and they make you more money. Right. And so your pricing model is probably unknowingly incentivizing you getting on some of the worst clients and the worst properties and not helping you to set yourself apart from the competition. [00:16:58] So we've never had anyone really come to us with good pricing, never. And so we've always helped people clean this up. And then they close more deals more easily at a higher price point. And you might think that's crazy, but that's what we do.  [00:17:11] Sarah: And they tell us that!  [00:17:12] Jason: Yeah. [00:17:12] Sarah: We're not just saying it. [00:17:14] Like our clients tell us that they're like, "Oh, I didn't think I was going to do this and I didn't want to and I didn't even think it was going to work, so I figured I'd try it and then i'll just change it back when it doesn't work," And every time, they are so surprised and they love it and they're like "man I really wish I did this sooner." [00:17:30] That would have been so much better if I did this.  [00:17:32] Jason: They usually get a significant number of their clients upgrading to a premium tier so they're making more money off their existing portfolio right away. And so usually pricing's this magic trick we can pull out of our hat that we can immediately pay for if they have a decent number of clients. [00:17:47] We can immediately pay for our program and our program's now basically free, right? So let's get into the next one. So rate your pricing, if it's typical of everybody else then maybe you give yourself, if you want you can give yourself a 60 70 percent or something like that, but I would say it's a 50 percent because the profit margin difference can be pretty significant, right? [00:18:08] But give yourself some sort of rating if you're cheaper than most of your competitors give yourself below a 50 percent Like you're worse than everybody else. So give yourself a number there. What's your leak? All right next:  [00:18:18] Purpose. This is the most important thing that we take clients through. This causes not just a leak in your sales pipeline, but it causes a leak with your team and a leak with financials. It's one of the greatest profitability hacks. [00:18:30] It's one of our greatest. Sales hacks, and it sounds like woo fluffy BS, but purpose is the most significant thing that we do in companies. And our clients tell us this was the most significant thing that we did. So what do you want to say about purpose?  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah. So this is usually where we start in our rapid revamp and then, and only then can we then continue on with the rest of the class because everything stems from this. So if you're trying to fix your pricing and you don't understand your company culture yet, it's not going to make sense because you're going to have to redo your pricing. If you're trying to fix your website and your branding and your online perception, but you haven't figured out. the foundation of where all of these other things come from, then it doesn't matter because you're going to have to go back and fix it anyway, because you don't really have clarity on that. But once you get clarity on that, everything else becomes so much easier now.  [00:19:23] Jason: Yeah. So the way to score this is, some questions you might ask are do you have maybe three or four core values defined? [00:19:31] If you have a lot more than that, then give yourself a lower score because that means really, it means nothing. Do you have a clearly defined mission for the business? Are you clear on who you're targeting and is it clearly defined and written down? Like, how do they know what a good client looks like versus a bad one? [00:19:46] Right. Are you clear on your personal motivations for why you have this business beyond just getting money? That in a way that you could relate it clearly your personal why? Are you clear on the business's purpose or your team? Right? So do you have a ceo decision making guide so others know how you think on your team, right? [00:20:03] There's a lot of different things that deliverables in the purpose Weeks in our rapid revamp that we help businesses define, and it changes the profitability. It changes everything in the business. So based on these questions, give yourself a rating on zero to 100 percent and figure out where you're at. [00:20:19] And if you don't have a lot of these things defined, then give yourself a pretty low grade, right? Next is pitch. So purpose feeds into the pitch and so you need those things defined. But what's your sales pitch like? Is it basically just answer questions and then hope they sign up? [00:20:35] Which is bad. That's pretty weak, right? Or do you, for example, like us have a four phase process that's systematically like getting clear on what they need and breaking things down and then figuring out like how to deal with objections and et cetera. Right. What's your sales pitch? How effective is it? [00:20:53] Do you have visuals that maybe facilitate that, et cetera? Right. So if you feel like you have a high close rate, right. But it's just warm leads like a referral. You're you have a really high close rate, that doesn't mean you have a good pitch. That doesn't mean you're good at selling. That just means they were a warm lead, right? [00:21:09] So in dealing with colder leads or where it's competitive or they're looking at you and several other competitors, how good are you at convincing them to use you over everybody else? May help you see how effective your pitch is right on colder leads or more lukewarm leads, right? So give yourself a rating on pitch. [00:21:25] Anything else related to pitch  [00:21:27] Sarah: So I'll just one more time reiterate the company culture, you can't have a good sales pitch if you don't first know your company culture. Yeah. So if you're like, "Oh wait, like my pitch is so good. I can close anybody." You're missing your company culture and you do not have that piece defined, there is no way that you can have a great sales pitch, at least in the way that we teach it. So we have the golden bridge formula. You can not do the golden bridge formula if you do not first understand your why and your business why. You don't have those two pieces? You're not doing the golden bridge. And without the golden bridge, sales just gets hard. It just gets hard. And then it's like, "well, like I don't want to be pushy, but also I want to close deals and I have to sell people and like, I don't know, I'm in this loop I don't understand why I can't close things and like, this should be easier." And then people go and they take a bunch of courses to learn how to do sales better. [00:22:23] You can just have a better sales pitch.  [00:22:25] Jason: Yeah. Good point. So to sum all this up, all of these leaks are leaks in trust. And if in your pitch, for example, you are trying to sell property management, you're selling the wrong product. Nobody really cares about property management. That's not what they want to buy. [00:22:42] And so what they really want to buy is peace of mind or safety and certainty. They want to buy, they're buying their trust in you. They want trust. And so all of these leaks in the pipeline relate to trust. They're all trust leaks, sales and deals happen. You could write this down, tattoo it on your forehead. [00:22:59] Don't do that. Put it up on your wall. Sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. And so if you have any of these major trust leaks, you are just wasting time, energy, money, focus, cash effort. Right. And so let's get these leaks all shored up. It doesn't make sense to keep putting blood transfusions into somebody when they have their arm chopped off and they're just hemorrhaging blood. [00:23:22] That's pretty gruesome, but  [00:23:24] Sarah: yeah  [00:23:24] Jason: Stop the bleeding first. And then, "Hey, it makes sense now. Now that we've stopped this major bleeding, let's now take care of things. Right?" And so get these things dialed in and shored up and what you'll find is: you may not need nearly as many leads. [00:23:39] You won't have to spend nearly as much money on advertising or any money. Our clients don't, most of them don't spend any money on ads or lead generation, and they actually had doors faster than their competitors that are. And so this is the starting point. Get this stuff cleaned up. It's like sharpening the ax first, before you go and chop down trees, do the smart thing first and everything else becomes easier. [00:23:59] And this really is lubricating your entire sales process. Everything flows through a lot easier. And so you could double your deals flowing through without changing any of your lead sources that you've already got going right now, just by shoring these up. And so get these blind spots dialed in and reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:24:15] And we'll tell you about a rapid revamp program where we tackle each of these leaks in two weeks, two weeks for each leak. And so it's a 90 day program. It's really rapid and it will transform the front end of your business forever. Okay. That's it. So you can find us at DoorGrow. com and until next time to our mutual growth. [00:24:35] Bye everyone. [00:24:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:25:03] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

This week we are joined by the Polly Hearsey to explore the transformation of business towards greater consciousness. Polly shares with us how business can act as a form of consciousness, as well as practical steps for businesses to evolve alongside our growing awareness. We discuss ways to collaborate with nature, the benefits of aligning with natural rhythms, and offer valuable advice for solopreneurs and small business owners aiming to make their business more conscious and aligned with their values. Tune in to discover Polly's hopes for the future of conscious business and the crucial role of community and collaboration in this inspiring journey. This conversation aims to inspire and guide heart-centered entrepreneurs towards inner peace to create outer change. Polly and I talked about: How Polly defines Conscious Business How business acts as a form of consciousness Steps businesses can take to evolve alongside our growing consciousness Ways businesses can collaborate with nature Benefits of aligning with natural rhythms for both business and Mother Earth Advice for solopreneurs and small business owners to make their business more conscious and aligned with their personal values Hopes for the future in the realm of conscious business and how we can get there The role of community and collaboration in this journey And so much more --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Holly, thank you so much for being here on the Humane Marketing Podcast. It's good to have you with us. Polly: I'm, I'm, I'm so honored to be here. You know, I'm really looking forward to the conversation we're going to have. Thank you so much. Sarah: Me too. Yeah. It's been, it's been a, we've been in touch on, on LinkedIn and kind of seen each other's worlds. Right. Yeah. And then I came across this Not a meditation, but it was on insight timer, a short talk that you posted there about conscious business and, and just how you approach business. And I'm like, ah, now it's time, you know, I have to have her on the, on the podcast, so delighted to have you here. So we're going to be talking about. Conscious business, nature aligned business, kind of like all the things that you love to talk about. And I think that really clearly comes across. It's like, wow, she's passionate about this, right? So, [00:01:00] yeah. So maybe start with explaining what conscious business means to you. What, what all the things that you pack under this umbrella of conscious business. Polly: I, it's an interesting one because I think sometimes when we have terms that are upcoming in, in our world, then they mean so many different things to different people until they, they take on an accepted meaning. So for me, conscious business is really about understanding how we are consciously creating our businesses, how we're consciously contributing through our businesses. And so that takes it in, you know, how do we treat people? How do we treat the, the environment? How do we treat our, Own sense of wellbeing in terms of being an entrepreneur as well, because it's tough to be an entrepreneur and to be a leader of a business. It's, it's hard work and it can be very damaging to your self esteem in some ways, [00:02:00] particularly when you're being asked to do things that you're not comfortable with. I think, well, that's how I have to do it in order to be successful, but I don't like it, but I don't know that there's an alternative way. So I think that, that piece of being. Kind and conscious to yourself is as important to do as it is to be conscious of how you treat other people. And you know, for me that is if you are in a, you know, you are in a product-based business, then it's about your entire supply chain. How, how conscious are you of your entire supply chain? But if you're in a service-based, it's like how conscious are you of the way in which you're structuring your business and you are setting your business up. So there's a lot of sustainability in it, but it's also about why am I doing this? What, why am I, why have I started my business? So that's, that's what I really focus on is helping people understand why they've started their business. What was the driver? Because for the most part, we kind of skirt, skate on the surface a little bit, and we don't think about, you know, what, [00:03:00] what was that sort of like that soul calling that was really going on underneath my decision. And unearthing that so that you can understand that what you really want to do through your business is create a positive impact. And I've found that every time somebody really taps into that well of, of knowledge and knowing, then they come forward with a business that is really positive. So I think that that piece of understanding yourself and what drives you to want to do this. Helps you to discover the make conscious, the subconscious, unconscious reason that you actually started your business. So it means so many different things to me. I Sarah: love it because it's kind of like. Yeah, it's one of these buzzwords, almost nowadays, right? It's like authentic business, conscious business. What does that mean? It's kind of like, is it some people almost like put the spiritual business in there as well. So, so you're [00:04:00] right. It, it does. Depends on, on who you talk to. And it means different things. It sounds like for the two of us, it's, it's very aligned. I wrote down you know, consciousness of yourself, of others and mother nature. So that's what it means to me as well. It's like, first you start with yourself. That's what we do in, in humane marketing. Then you need to look at your relationship to others. Which includes mother nature and you touched upon sustainability and, and, you know, that's obviously a big part of of conscious business. But I actually find that the sustainability only people are often not conscious of who they are and, and themselves and relationship to others. And so it's a lot of, there's actually. It's not a healthy environment. At least it wasn't for me. I was kind of in that sustainably field for a while and I'm like, wow, it's [00:05:00] toxic in here and it doesn't feel good. So I believe it's because they're, they're haven't done so much on their own inner work. What do you think about it? Polly: Yeah, I think so. But also I think that there is a human, very human tendency to think we have a problem here, so I need to get into solution mode. So you get very into your head and you couldn't come up with a solution, but The thing that really strikes me about where business needs to go is that we need to tap into that well of knowing rather than knowledge that comes from our intuitive side. both: Because Polly: when you look at nature, for example, the complexity of the relationships in nature are so mind blowing that we can't approach that logically. It's just, you know, if you, if you think about how interconnected the Siberian tundra is to the Amazonian rainforest. Now, you, what, In a scientific way, we look at those as [00:06:00] isolated, but they're not. We've got these little micro ecosystems and then we've got these global ecosystems. And so I think that in order for us to function effectively as communities, as societies, and to function effectively as life forms on a planet that needs us to act a little bit more responsibly, then we have to tap into that intuitive side. And of course, people who are in a very scientific, logical space both: that Polly: they haven't, it's not, probably not even occurred to them that they need to do that, but they're still doing something positive, but they're not creating a conscious environment. around it. And I think that's where you and I sort of like really see things in the same way, is, is that we need to create a different environment. And that means changing how you think. It means not just changing how you act, you have to change how you feel as well. So you want to come into it with a feeling of self belief, actually, self belief that you can [00:07:00] make a difference. I think that is, that's the key. The number one stumbling block that people have, they have all this energy welling up inside them and there's things that they want to do. But the first big stumbling block is, Oh, can I really make a difference? Sarah: Yeah. And, and those are exactly the people that we need right now to have this courage and boldness to step up and bring and use business as this lever to make a difference, right? Yeah, so true. You. In this talk, you mentioned this shift that, you know, we kind of all, I think a lot of people that I talk to notice that there's some kind of shift going on. They can't really finger point it or they don't exactly know what's going on, but they're like, something is happening. So yeah. Talk to us a little bit about this consciousness shift. And what that means for our businesses and why maybe [00:08:00] so many people are unhappy with their business right now. So I Polly: think, I mean, I have to unwrap it. I mean, it's so, it's so complex, but I do think as we've got more technological and we've become more interconnected, but without the human connection that We've obviously got shorter attention spans. I mean, that's certainly, you know, you'll, you'll hear people talking about that in marketing settings, attention spans are getting shorter. So you need to box everything in and to, you know, get people's attention in shorter periods of time. And I think what is happening is the reaction to that. So it's not being articulated. It's not fully conscious yet. But the reaction to that is we need more meaning. We need more depth. We need more connection. We need more contact. We need to be seen as individuals. We need to be responded to as individuals. And if I look at the business, it's particularly the online business space, it has been absolutely spectacular. paint splattered with [00:09:00] blueprints and do these things and just, you know, this, this is how you do it. And, you know, you guaranteed success if you follow this, this process. I just think everyone's just had enough of that and they're fed up with this not being seen. As who they are. And if they're not being seen, then what they want to create isn't being seen. So I think that to me underpins the shifts, but there are some, you know, there are some very noticeable shifts in by a behavior engagement and interaction. All of that's changed. And I think we are now definitely moving into a space where depth is required. So I've been saying this a lot in my community is saying, The, the push is to go harder, shorter, faster, put out more and more and more and saying reverse that, go deeper, go slower, and you know, you're gonna have a better relationship. So you may not have thousands of likes, you may not have thousands of engagements, but the ones that you have are going to be [00:10:00] completely different quality. both: And I Polly: think that's what happens when you, when you start to believe that you can operate in a different way, you shift the baseline, the baseline of expectation, and that begins to shift the culture. So I think it's like this, we start the whole process from the very bottom, because we are never going to get big corporations to change their minds. We're not going to get governments to change their minds. The only way those are going to change their minds is when they see that everything underneath them has already changed. Sarah: Yeah. So. Yeah, the bottom up movement this time around. Yeah, definitely. I totally agree. I totally agree with the depth as well. And the, the meaning so, yeah, how, how can we then change our businesses? If we do kind of feel this emptiness, how do we change our businesses towards more meaning, towards, you know, more of these human interactions? Yeah, [00:11:00] take us there. Polly: Well, I think in terms of changing the business, the first thing you had, and this is an uncomfortable thing to do. The first thing you have to do, if you just got to the point where I've got so far and now I just feel empty, I'm not really in the game. I don't buy into the label that I've got. It's all feels. Kind of meaningless and I've just been chasing a metric in order to make myself feel successful. The first thing we have to do is actually sort of like unpack the business. The way I look at what I do is it's like, it's almost like take the pieces, take all the pieces apart and have them all there. Because what I've found is that there's Pieces of you that are missing from your business. You know, we all have these experiences. We have these perspectives. We develop these skillsets and we have these interests as well. And we're told to sort of focus and get really specific. But if we take all of the mechanics of our businesses to pieces, almost sort of. Metaphorically, you say, [00:12:00] well, actually there's space for that. That bit of you makes sense. And so taking people back to why that's important to them, what they've learned from it and what they're, what it's, what it's meant to them. how it's shaped them really, helps them to say, Oh, that's why I approached this other bit that I've always been working on in this particular way. So I've worked with a lot of people who've just, they've, they've reached a very high level in their industry and then just gone, no, I can't do it anymore. And they, they want to, they want to burn their businesses down at that point. And it's like, you don't need to burn it down because everything that you've learned is valid moving forward. You might not use it in the same way, but it shaped you in some way. And I think that's, that's one of the ways that we start. And the other thing is, I think it is really important to reflect on. How your business is functioning within your community, functioning within the business community is a wider thing. So it's interesting. I've listened to a few talks and sort of like round [00:13:00] tables on the shifts that are happening recently. And what I found really interesting from some of the big names, they'd be, you know, that we're talking sort of like. You know, quite established, large revenue businesses, but they're talking about unraveling it a lot. They've got these big teams, everything's automated and they're going, I need to unravel it. I need to actually start talking to people and making space to have those conversations. And they actually don't know how to do that. The beauty of it is if you're a bit smaller, is that you can, and you haven't got a large team and you haven't got a load of mechanics, That you need to sort of like account for and pay for, then you can actually start to do that through your philosophy, through your ethos. So that's one of the things I really work a lot with people on is their value system. both: Because if Polly: you've got your value system, it changes how you approach the whole creative process in business. And then you start to say, well, actually I can create anything I want to, I don't have to follow the model. [00:14:00] And that, I think, you know, coming back to self belief being one of the, the first stumbling blocks, the second one is, can I really do things completely differently? Yeah, you can, you can. Sarah: Yeah. And you mentioned big names, right? I think the last 15 years, that's all we've ever done, or most people have done. It's like, oh, there's these, you know, we can probably count them on two hands. These are the ones who made it. So now we need to all. Create the businesses just like them, and this is how it's done. And they'll sell you the 2, 000 course in, in how it's done. And yet those are the ones who are now, you know, they're not sharing it openly, but yeah, they're kind of hinting at the unraveling things and they're like, huh, people are not buying my online course anymore. I wonder why, you know, people Polly: don't want any more information. They've had too much Sarah: human connection in these courses. Right. So. Yeah. It's, it's so [00:15:00] interesting. There is Polly: definitely a slide happening, some of the big names are struggling to, you know, some of the, some of them are still doing really well. I mean, and for, for many of us, they would be like, still be very happy to be doing as well as they are at the moment, but they, of Sarah: course, but they also have much higher overhead. Oh yes. I mean, you know, they have insane neighborhoods, a lot of spendings and, and so they're now struggling with, you know. Yeah, Polly: yeah, yeah. And I, I think a very light agile business is important now. Ah, yeah. 'cause you're more responsive, much freer. If you can bootstrap a s a solution to something, then bootstrap it. Why get yourself anchored into spending hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds or euros or dollars a year. To have systems there that you don't actually need to have. Right. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I mean, it, it really depends on what you want for your business. And I do think, I was thinking about this this morning again, is [00:16:00] like this constant stuff, like you must hit six figures, you must hit seven figures, you may go multi seven figures or whatever. both: Right. Polly: And you just go, it, it's a nonsense statement. Right. Because if you take, Somebody hitting six figures in Australian dollars, they're earning significantly different to somebody hitting six figures in US dollars. And for us in the UK, it means doing twice what somebody in Australia is doing to, to, to get that. So it's a complete nonsense, but also takes no account of the cost of living in different countries. And so the benchmarks that we have, it's like, why do we have them? Yeah. They mean nothing. Right. It's so important to say, this is my business, this is what's important to me. And you'll never be able to do that unless you actually stop and say, who am I? What am I here to do? And who do I want to help? Sarah: Mm. Exactly. Polly: Three very simple questions. How do Sarah: I define success if it's not [00:17:00] the money part anymore, right? What is success for me? What does my life what I want my life to look like? How do I want to spend my days? My weeks? You know, yeah. What kind of metrics can I find there that are not money related? Polly: It's Sarah: interesting, Polly: isn't it? Because so many people talk about, Oh, let me show you how to get to your first job. five figure week or whatever, and that's all they talk about. And yet, if you ask a question to people about what does success mean to you, they won't say it's about money. Like one in a hundred will say it's money. Most will say it's about me feeling that I can express myself. It's feeling fulfilled, feeling like I'm making an impact, feeling like I'm helping people. So if that's what really matters to people, why are we still selling them ways to make money? Why aren't we selling them ways to find themselves? and express themselves and feel happy. Sarah: Yeah. And traditionally also people who have more money have [00:18:00] less time, which also feels like a really silly thing to strive for. It's like, well, you know, what if I don't even have time to spend that money anymore? It's like, what's the point? That story of, Polly: The fishermen on the beach with the executive. It's just like classic, it's like go all the way around in a circle. It's like, well, yeah, and I'm here exactly where I need to be without a fleet of fishing boats. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. I, I tell the same story with an olive tree growth keeper in, in Sicily in the marketing like for human books. So same idea just with all of trees. Right. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. Let's, let's go and. You know, I just imagined what I want my life to look like. And immediately what come to me, came to mind is, well, nature outside. I want to be more outside. So let's head a little bit in that direction, [00:19:00] because that's also something you talk about is how to align your business with nature. So what do you work on with clients there? Polly: Well, it's an interesting one because I'm still, I don't think I'll ever feel that I've. Got a full understanding of what I'm doing that and I've got okay with that, but because I'm always going to learn a little bit more, but it's really about sort of like learning who we are in nature, learning how nature works, not to mimic it, but to remember that we are nature and therefore that we operate according to natural principles. There are no business. Principles that, you know, in the mainstream that are natural, they are all completely imposed and nature never thrives when you impose something on it, it always needs to come from within. So I think that's another thing. It's like bringing that process of coming from within. So I love sending, sending my clients out [00:20:00] into nature with their business questions, because if you just want to sit in a, in a quiet space with the thing that is bothering you the most, And then just look around a bit and see what solutions nature comes up with. You just go, okay, yeah, there's different ways of doing it. So it can be as simple as that, but also thinking about, you know, how do like in my membership, we were coming into a new season. We're going to be working on the voice and working with nature. So be working with the bullfinch, which is one of the finches and that, you know, they're renowned for their songs. And if you think about bird song, birds have functional calls and they have Aesthetic calls, you both: know, Polly: say, and we, we think of the voice as being something functional, or we think of the voice as being something aesthetic, but you know, there, there are two sides to that. So it's like learning lessons as simple as that, but what's the aesthetic of your voice? What's the function of your voice? How do you [00:21:00] balance function and aesthetic? Because there's no two, you can't mistake two different birds. Well, you probably can, but you know, the bird calls something, something as simple as that is profoundly influential in terms of how you think about it. And that's, that's where I'm playing at the moment. But I do have this belief that businesses can become part of the ecosystem. So at the moment we have this sustainability sort of like, I need to mitigate the impact of my business. on the environment. I believe that it's possible, and I don't know how yet, but I believe it's possible for businesses to become part of the ecosystem. But I do know that it comes back to who you are. and remembering your nature and remembering how to work with nature at an individual level in order that makes that possible. Does that make sense? Yeah. And that's part of the, [00:22:00] the knowing piece, knowing that that's possible, but also appreciating that I have absolutely no idea what that looks like yet. You sort of get little glimpses, glimpses of it. But You know, I have a client who, who makes bark flower essences and their space around the, where they make them, and it's not a factory, it's, you know, it's a very small, small unit, but the space around them is managed in a very particular way where it feels like the entire manufacturing and office space is part of that. So there's sort of like hints at, at that, but you know, I have an online business. What does that mean for me? both: And Polly: it means, how do I bring nature into my business? How do I contribute to nature through my business? And that's not, I do think that sort of like philanthropy and things like that. I'm not dissing it in any way. But I think that's a fix for [00:23:00] compensation, whereas we can be contributing in a very conscious way. Sarah: I love, I love your questioning because clearly if you would just say, well, here are the seven steps, you know, I would probably go, yeah, I don't know about that. So it's, again, I think everyone has to find out in a way for themselves, but they have to be open. To receiving the message and for example, what you just shared about the bird song. I, yeah, I don't know that I knew about the bird having two kinds of songs. So that, yeah, that's just kind of like, oh, that's really interesting. And then what I thought of is like, What I share about in the, in my marketing, like we're human program, we look at the marketing techniques that are unique for each individual. Right. And so people, some people will, will, [00:24:00] and we also look at the human design a little bit. And so some people will want to use their voice. Because maybe other people have told them, you have a nice voice or, you know, it's like you have this soothing voice or whatever. Like they just know that they want to use their voice. And, and so we, we, you know, we say, Oh, maybe you have a podcast or maybe you do videos or like, it's like, yeah, that is somehow, I guess. Related to nature, because it's how you are built, how, you know, your design is built. You were given a nice voice, and so why not use it in your, in your marketing, both: for Sarah: example. Yeah, absolutely. Polly: The thing that I come back to all the time is that nature, life is diversity. both: Right. Polly: There isn't one solution to everything. So I look at things like electric cars and just go, well, this clearly, we're not [00:25:00] listening to nature because nature does not have one solution across the entire globe. It has different solutions in different places. And that to me is a massive lesson for business that says that we need diversity in the business place. If we're going to see people as individuals and respond to people as individuals, then we need diversity in our businesses, diverse business models, diverse focuses, diverse niches, whatever. So we need to remember, and I think that's what we go to is nature, to learn that, is to learn how to be creative. Right. Yeah. I mean, we, we are on a rock floating in space that producing the most extraordinary diversity of life. And we forget that we're part of that diversity of life and that we're all individuals and all unique. And, you know, you look at any, any plant on the planet. You know, and there might be [00:26:00] thousands and thousands of the same plant, but they're not the same plants. They're individuals within that. And that's kind of, to me, is remembering that every, everything on, in, on this earth is an individual. And it has a, however you want to phrase it, it has a consciousness, it has an energy, it has a presence. in the whole, and we need to learn to value that. And I think anything that I can do to help people see what they'd never seen before is, is really helping because we, do we look that closely? You know, we got plant blindness. We look Sarah: outside, we look outside for solutions. That's the immediate reaction, usually. Polly: So anything that we can do to like, slow down and look more closely, I think is going to have a profound effect on the trajectory of consciousness and the trajectory of life on, on earth as well. both: So Polly: little things like that. So you can get very [00:27:00] frustrated about governments are so slow to change policy. But policy is about an imposition and people rebel against imposition. If it comes from within, if it's coming from a genuine place of this is me and this is what I want to do, then it becomes something that people want to do and it changes culture. It change, change, changes society from the inside out and then everything else has to follow suit. Otherwise it's completely out of step and Sarah: Yeah, we have huge power. We have so much power really do. And, and, and I just want to, I know you, you are of the same opinion because you have your community as well. So it's not that we're saying you need to be individual and not be in community, right? Because you're just. Your own lone wolf. That's not what we're saying. And I always look to astrology also. And we, we [00:28:00] have Pluto in Aquarius now, which represents this idea of the individual in community. So we can be completely, uniquely different. And yet, if we have the same values, we are together in community and are strong in community. Because it doesn't mean that we're uniquely different, that we can't find things in common, and that we can't create things, co create things in common. And that's the beauty of these communities, is that, because the old way was kind of like, top down, everybody needs to be the same to be in this six figure club, you know. And now it's like, no, everybody can be completely their own unique design. And yet we have a common worldview and yeah, that's, that's really the beauty of the times. Polly: And if you, if you do spend any time looking in nature, you'll see that it's collaborative, but that that's, it's structured on collaboration. We, [00:29:00] you have to look to see that. And I think people are beginning to look more. Vichy, if you look at I need to find a way to produce this as a video. So there's, it's, it's visual, but if you. If you take a stone, perfectly, or a sphere, or whatever, it's perfectly rounded, if you place 12 people around that, Each one of those has got a completely different perspective on the same thing. And that's what we need to value. So collaboration is really important. And actually the ability to deliver on a purpose, which might be, you and I have a very similar purpose. You know, we've got the same slight vision of where we're going. We can't do it on our own. It's actually strengthened by working together. So community to me is absolutely integral to recreating the vision of business. Really important. So you need to be a unique individual in a community and valued for that. There's a wonderful, it's just popped into my head. There's a [00:30:00] wonderful story that some African tribe where they, have a song that they sing to that individual. So that's, they don't have a name, they have a song. And at various points through their life, they sing them their song. So it's a unique song to that person. And that really speaks to me about how you, you value the individual. And the uniqueness of the individual, but that individual is part of a whole, it's part of a community and is necessary. And we've devalued our individual contributions to the level that people have this problem with self belief. both: But actually, Polly: we have huge amounts of power by connecting to ourselves and knowing who we are and then doing something about it. Sarah: Yeah, so if we bring this conversation full circle, it really feels to me like this consciousness really starts with knowing yourself, right? All this inner [00:31:00] work that you and I have been talking about for so many years, but it, it felt like people were like, not interested. And she's like, well, no, but I want the six figures. And I just want the clients. And it's like, no, but that you'll get there and you will get much better clients. You will feel much more aligned if you start from within. Polly: Yeah, absolutely. It changes the game completely because I say this to people all the time. And I think they're a little skeptical initially is that if you are really tapped into who you are and you're doing your thing. Then those clients will come to you with zero resistance. So all that training that we've had about how to overcome objections and making sure, you know, will people pay and all those things that have been drilled into people that made them really nervous and alarmed. both: Right. Polly: But doesn't happen when somebody says. I've sought you out and I want to work with you because I have seen what you've [00:32:00] produced. So, you know, producing content and stuff like that is important in terms of being able to get our message out to the world, but actually it's really just a, it's a portal through which people can move towards us. And makes it possible, like you said, you need to use your voice if your voice is there, you need to use your words if it's your words or, you know, you need to just use your face if that's what it is. There are lots of different ways, but we have to find our way that matches the energy of what we're trying to bring forward. Sarah: And I feel like what we're doing and people who do similar work is, it's just giving people the courage to use their voice because it's those hidden talents is those people who, who do good work that until now didn't get any of the visibility because they wanted nothing to do with the marketing stuff that they saw out there. And so what we're doing is just telling them, well, there's a different way to do it. You can do it. Align with nature. You can [00:33:00] align and do it align with who you are, right? Yeah. And I think Polly: one of the, our jobs because we've, we've been out front for a while that's not to say we're any better, but we've been out front for a while is that our job is to create a sense of safety in doing that. And I don't know about you, but I know that I've had some very sort of like uncomfortable, you know, spaces to move through personally in order to get myself comfortable with talking about, I mean, if you told me 10 years ago, I was going to be talking about Nate, you know, nature as a business mentor, I don't know. People laughed at us. Yeah, exactly. But so it's been not necessarily a comfortable process, but one of our jobs as mentors and supporting our communities is to create safety, to say it's okay. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Create a community of people who are there to, you know, support each other because yeah, sometimes it's not enough if just one person tells you it's safe, but a community. Polly: We need [00:34:00] spaces where we feel safe. Sarah: Yeah. Polly: And we need spaces where we can talk about things that we may not feel safe to talk about or comfortable to talk about, or just worry that we won't be received because people would have a clue what we're talking about. And sometimes you just need to just go, you know, as we, you and I did when we, we had a conversation, we were just like, splurges all out. And it was okay because we both knew what we were going through. And so it's okay. So I think that is a really important piece to say, and that, you know, every person who steps forward and starts to use their voice then becomes a leader that other people find safety with. So it's the exponential effects of every single person who does this. We speed up the whole process of changing things for the better. Sarah: So good. Yeah, I can see the future clearly in front of me. It's beautiful. Please do share With people who are listening, where they can find out more about your work, your [00:35:00] community, your Insight Timer talks and meditations, all of that. Polly: Everything is accessible, I can't say the word, accessible through my website, which is polyhearsey. co. uk. So if you just go there, you've got the link straight to Insight Timer, you get linked through to my events. And if you want to join my mailing list and keep up to date, then I send out just one a week email a week. So just With my latest thoughts. So everything's fine. Sarah: This has been so much fun. We have to do it again. Thanks so much, Polly, for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

In May, we had our annual DoorGrow Live event! What makes DoorGrow Live different from other property management conferences? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about our most recent DoorGrow Live conference and some of the topics discussed. You'll Learn [01:12] What was different about this year's DoorGrow Live? [04:48] Tactics vs. Mindset [06:41] Changing the order of your priorities [10:17] Hard choices, easy life Tweetables “Tactics and the how can always be figured out.” “It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset.” “The hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term.” “If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. Okay.  [00:01:12] And so what we're going to be talking about today is we just had DoorGrow Live and DoorGrow Live was a success. It was a lot of fun and it was a little bit different this year. So how would you say it was different this year, Sarah?  [00:01:27] Sarah: So I think a lot of people were saying, "Hey, it feels like there was really just a lot of heart that went into this event." [00:01:35] So usually when I think you and I run events, we're very tactical. How do you do this? How do you do that? And let's share this strategy and let's talk about this thing. And this year we changed things up a little bit and you were maybe a little hesitant to follow the formula that I put together, might I add. [00:01:53] And so maybe on the podcast you can tell people that It worked?  [00:01:57] Jason: It worked.  [00:01:58] Sarah: And? Do you have anything else to say about that?  [00:02:00] Jason: Anyone that knows Sarah knows what she wants to hear right now. You were right. There it is! There it is. There it is. That's what she wanted. There it is.  [00:02:10] Sarah: So this year when I was putting together the schedule and the agenda, there was this whole plan that I had. [00:02:17] And I was like, "Oh no, we need to order things like this and do things like this. And this is what I wanted." And he's like, " I don't know if that's going to work. And why are we doing this whole thing? And we're like putting this whole thing together. And like, you don't even know if it's going to work the way you want." [00:02:30] Jason: Is this how I sound?  [00:02:31] Sarah: Yes.  [00:02:32] Jason: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:34] Sarah: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:36] Jason: That's totally what I sound like.  [00:02:38] Sarah: It was perfect.  [00:02:39] Jason: I'm shaking my head no, by the way, for the listeners.  [00:02:41] Sarah: See you probably, they probably didn't even know that was me talking. They just thought it was you.  [00:02:45] Jason: Oh, yeah. [00:02:46] You do such a good impersonation of me. I know. It's really quite impressive. I'll go back to my normal voice so that you realize it's Sarah talking. Yeah, for the listeners, we need to make sure there's two distinct voices or they're going to be really confused why I'm talking to myself because you sound so much like me. [00:03:03] Sarah: I know. I'm so sorry if I confused anyone.  [00:03:06] Jason: Nobody was confused. Okay. So...  [00:03:08] Sarah: so he was giving me a little bit of a hard time about it because I, like, made him sit down and map this out and I was like, "no, there's a formula that we're supposed to follow and this is what I want it to look like." And I think it worked out really well. [00:03:21] Jason: Yeah, the event went really well.  [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:24] Jason: Things ran pretty much like clockwork. That's hard. It's hard to do that in events. Like speakers go over, people don't stop. Like, we had this big, huge red LED clock right in front of the speaker. So it was like super obvious, like, and we, I think we had conversations with all the speakers, like everything worked pretty smoothly. [00:03:43] The general feedback I got from a lot of clients one of our clients, Ed Golding, came up to me and he was just smiling. He'd been to some previous ones and he said, "this was different, you know, what was different about this?" I said, "what, Ed? " He said, "heart, this one had heart." [00:03:56] And it was an emotional event. There was lot more emotion at this event. Did we talk about tactics? Yes. I explained how I've been able to leverage social media and different tools and, I've made millions of dollars off social media. And I shared some really cool tools and very tactical stuff. [00:04:12] That's how I opened up the event. But we got into a lot of mindset and what we've realized over time, that we talked about at the event that most of our clients are not winning or losing because they don't, or do have tactics. Tactics and the how can always be figured out. And I liked Jeff Garner's tattoo he talked about but....  [00:04:33] Sarah: he's funny.  [00:04:33] Jason: He's like, " can I say it? There's children present." I had my kids at the event.  [00:04:36] Sarah: They're my kids. Like they hear it all the time.  [00:04:40] Jason: Yeah, so he's got a tattoo that's FTH Which stands for "fuck the how" so and so a lot of times people are so worried about "how do I do this? How do I do this?" And we do share tactics. We do a lot of that at DoorGrow. However, It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset. And so whenever I teach tactics. I always am going into the why behind it and the mindset stuff. And when they start to understand this stuff, then they will actually do it usually. [00:05:13] So there was a lot of mindset at the event. And then also, there's vulnerability. Like I openly shared how I've been reevaluating my priorities and what those look like and how how that looks. You were sharing about your upbringing and how like the difficult things in life are also the things that make us who we are and help us to enable us to help others and how to view it through a different lens, which I thought was really awesome. [00:05:39] And everybody's crying. Sarah's making everybody cry. Like I was crying, like...  [00:05:44] Sarah: I made people cry in a very different way this time though. I'm usually making people cry because I'm yelling at them.  [00:05:50] Jason: That's not true.  [00:05:51] Sarah: It's a little true. It's a little true.  [00:05:54] Jason: Not our clients, just me.  [00:05:56] Sarah: No, I don't do, but I do give our clients tough love when they need it. [00:05:59] And Kelly came to the event and she's like, "this is exactly what I needed." I'm like, "I know that's why I was on you for like three months." [00:06:07] Jason: Yeah. I think some people had some breakthroughs, which that's the goal. Like we want to change lives. And so there's something just really beautiful about this DoorGrow Live. [00:06:16] There was a lot of more depth to it and I just feel grateful to be able to be part of it and to see, our clients that believe in us and that, that came in just seeing their progress and, there are people there that have been in our program for years, which is just. [00:06:29] It's really awesome to see. So, so I thought I would share just a little bit today about what I had shared and this will be a quick episode cause Sarah doesn't want me to go long. So this'll be a quick one.  [00:06:41] Sarah: Back to back today.  [00:06:42] Jason: You got a busy day. So what I shared is I talked a little bit about prioritization and I've talked about this previously, but what what was interesting, one of my breakthroughs recently was recognizing I was basically merging in my mind, the five basic needs. [00:06:57] Which I don't know who put that out. We learned it from our friend Roya.  [00:07:01] Sarah: But maybe it was... [00:07:02] Jason: maybe it's Tony Robbins. I don't know. So there's five basic needs and the five basic needs are love and belonging, power and achievement fun and adventure, fun and pleasure, safety and security. [00:07:15] Sarah: And I'll see when you put them in a weird order, then I don't remember them. Freedom and flexibility.  [00:07:20] Jason: Freedom and flexibility. Freedom. There we go. Yeah. Okay. These are five basic needs and we all have one that's primary. For Sarah, it's power and achievement. Nobody's surprised, right? For me, it's actually love and belonging. [00:07:33] And a lot of my achievement and a lot of the things that I do. Are to, that's what motivates that we're helping clients working with clients love and belonging and having that connection. That's why I like working with entrepreneurs because I don't feel like such a weirdo when I'm around other people that are that weird, that are also entrepreneurial. [00:07:51] But what I've come to realize that if I make that my highest priority, I tend to get less of it. And I think this is true for anyone with their basic need. If you really think about it, if Sarah just went after power and achievement. And didn't prioritize like relationships and other things, it could be pretty destructive and it would likely have the opposite desired effect in trying to achieve power and whatnot, right? [00:08:13] Because we need others. And then for me, if I'm just going after love and belonging, I would be less likely to get it. If I didn't have my own oxygen mass first, if I didn't have financial wealth and health, if I didn't have physical health then it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I wouldn't be nearly as present. [00:08:31] I wouldn't be able to enjoy much love and connection or belonging, in relationships. I wouldn't be able to feed into relationships as much if I weren't taking care of myself. And so based on that I, I had everybody map out or stack or list their priorities in their life, and then I showed how my priorities were listed and then Like what my natural inclination is placing like love and belonging at the top. [00:08:59] And then I showcased how I've intentionally consciously listed them and rearranged the priority and how that affects my decision making in my day to day so that I spend more of my time in my day to day moving towards the top priorities, which are not on my new adjusted priority list are not the love and connection related things related to family, sex, relationship, stuff like that. So above that, I've placed God at the top which is, for some of you that might be your highest ideal, whatever that is. And so I want to always be pointed towards my highest ideal. Second, I put power, achievement, impact, and that's related money status, all that. [00:09:41] And that allows me to have impact. Which leads to me getting what I want. It's a leading sort of thing. And then the next is health. I need to be prioritizing health. And then it gets into more of the relationship stuff in the priorities. Whereas before I was putting family, friends, fun was probably higher on the list, but I felt like I wasn't ever able to do as much of that as I wanted. [00:10:04] Because I was so focused on the other stuff. And so by reordering the priorities, it takes work. Like it takes effort to go towards what's easy and what's natural usually leads to a harder life. And so there's this stoic phrase that I like that is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:10:26] And the hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term, playing the long game, doing what maybe I feel deep down inside I should do connected when I'm connected to God or focusing on my health, doing the playing the long game instead of doing the short term, right? [00:10:49] The short term is like eat, Häagen Dazs vanilla ice cream, vanilla bean ice cream. It's like my favorite right now. I love that. Or whatever, right? When we're just trying to please our tongue and our genitals, we tend to have a much harder life, right? And this is the short term. We're just going for the short term gain. [00:11:05] And so we want to make sure we prioritize the long game, the long term. and give up where that means sacrifice in the short term. That means work. That means effort. And a lot of people just aren't putting in enough work or enough effort in the lazy people in society are the people that are always trying to please their tongue and their genitals. [00:11:24] Maybe it's crass, my crass way of saying it. Okay. It's a little gross. Okay. So that's what I shared at DoorGrow Live. And so I encourage all of you listening, like make a list. What are your priorities? And what I shared is your results reveal your priorities. So if you don't like the results in your life, write them down. [00:11:43] Like, what are your relationships like? What's your business like? What are you doing in the business? What aren't you doing in the business? Or what are you enjoying? What are you not enjoying? And if you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order. It doesn't mean you give up or change your priorities, right? All of the things that were my priorities before are still priorities for me. I've just rearranged the order and by just rearranging the order, it changes everything. It changes the results that you get and you'll get more of the results that you really desire if you rearrange those priorities in a way that probably will take you more effort and more work, but will allow you to get everything that you want in the long run. [00:12:28] So that was my message. That's the simple message. Rearrange your priorities figure out your basic need, put that lower on the list, and figure out what needs to come before in order for you to have as much of that as possible because I want you to enjoy your life, but you need to do make hard choices. [00:12:41] And you need to do hard things.  [00:12:43] But it was an awesome event and make sure you are keeping an eye on doorgrowlive.com for the future and make sure to attend in the future. [00:12:52] Everybody says our conferences are different than any other property management conference out there. And That's a good thing. Like we do it in a good way. So, I recommend you attend. So you can check out more details about future events at doorgrowlive.Com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business and have success like our clients were showcasing at DoorGrow Live and grow your business, scale your operations, have a better lifestyle, enjoy your team more, enjoy your business, be less frustrated, have more peace, reach out to us at DoorGrow. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to see if we can help you scale your business. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:02] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for an insightful episode of the VRTAC-QM Manager Minute as Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM team share their expertise on case management systems. Brittny, an expert in Program and Performance within our Quality Management team, and Sarah, the Program Director for Fiscal and Resource Management, delve into best practices and the growing trend of states seeking to upgrade their systems. Learn about the nuances of state requests and the RFP process, and gain valuable knowledge to help you decide whether it's time to stay with your current system or make a move. Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brittny: Avoid over customizing the system. There's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies, and so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well.   Sarah: Silos, how do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times, and I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships.   Brittny: Be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today I'm thrilled to have two of my esteemed colleagues, Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM, joining me in the studio today. So, Brittny, how's it going for you?   Brittny: It's going great. How about you?   Carol: Awesome. I'm better for seeing your smiling face this morning. And how about you, Miss Clardy? How are you doing?   Sarah: I'm great. Great to kick off a new week.   Carol: Excellent. So for our listeners, Brittny serves on the program and performance side of our QM team. And Sarah is the program director for the fiscal and resource management side of our QM team. And both of these ladies have extensive experience with case management systems. And during one of our regular Core QM Team meetings, I asked the team, I'm like, hey, what are some potential podcast ideas? And Brittny said, you know what? There are a lot of state voc rehab agencies on a quest right now for a new case management system. Either your state is requesting you to do another request for proposal or you're just like, hey, is there something better out there? So with lots of new players that have entered the market, your case management system is a lifeline. And if it's not functioning optimally, it can really lead to some significant issues. So we just wanted to have a conversation today that can help to guide you through this journey with open eyes. So let's dig in. So of course our listeners always like to know, like how did you people get into VR? Everybody wonders, like what's your story? So I want to hear from each of you about kind of your journey into VR. So Sarah, I'm going to kick it off with you.   Sarah: So many of you know Ron Vessell, he's a staple around VR. Ron actually hired me back in the year 2000. I was a very green government accountant just starting out, didn't know what I was getting into, and they took a chance on a new, young professional. And so I did a deep dive early in my career and never looked back.   Carol: Very nice, I love that. How about you, Britt? How did you find your way into VR? You came a little different way.   Brittny: Yeah, I think it was definitely a unique path. I actually worked in criminal justice at the prison system as a counselor for quite some time. They were privatizing the position, which meant we were kind of losing benefits. We're no longer going to be a state employee. So I started looking around for other counseling positions. And at my time at the prison, I found that there was a lot of individuals with disabilities and a lot of obstacles that we had to address and assist with while we were there. And so when I seen the position at VR, I was very interested in it interviewed. And that's where I got my start about 14 years ago.   Carol: And which state was that in? Britt.   Brittny: That was in.Indiana.   Carol: Yeah. That's cool. I think that's great. So you worked with Teresa?   Brittny: Yes.   Carol: Very good.   Brittny: I always joke and say my four years at the prison. And then I have to clarify when I was working.   Carol: I love that. In fact, we had a guest last month that also had come up through the correctional system as well. It was really fun, but that definitely having that skill set behind you coming into VR is super important, really needed. So let's talk a little bit about your work. Both of you do for the QM. Just so our listeners have a little sense. And Britt, I'm going to start with you about that. Like can you give them a little flavor kind of for what you do in this TA world?   Brittny: Yeah, as you mentioned I work on the performance team. So really all things performance. But we help agencies address performance related needs. So this can be anywhere from training on performance measures to data analysis on performance data, reviewing policy procedures, internal controls and sometimes even assessing the system impact around performance and seeing how that impacts the reporting pieces.   Carol: Yeah, I love our performance team, the stuff you guys do, and you're so good at your analysis and really looking at taking that data and really digging in deep as to what's going on. So it's a very, very important piece of what is happening out there for our VR programs as we're delivering that technical assistance. How about you, Sarah?   Sarah: I have the great pleasure of leading the financial arm of the VRTACQM, and understanding that the VR award is the probably the most complex award within the grants management world. It really covers a wide array of skills and knowledge and isn't just financial based, it's also program based. So under the QM, we help agencies sort of manage the grant from the whole life cycle perspective, making sure that all the federal requirements are met, taking a look at individual state requirements, how those two things intersect, and we spend a lot of time, probably the majority of my time is actually spent in the period of performance arena, and specifically as it relates to this topic today with case management service systems.   Carol: Excellent. So, Brittny, you had mentioned the issue of people are looking for a new case management system. And I know as of late it feels like we've had at least a half a dozen folks saying, you know, we're doing a new RFP. We either have to for the state or we're going out for a new system. What advice do you have kind of off the bat for people who are considering venturing into this new RFP process?   Brittny: Yeah, I think before writing the RFP, I think it's important for the state or the agency to do some research on what systems are out there. A lot of agencies are writing an RFP based on what their current system does, and they end up with a very similar system. The process and all the hard work of getting a new system can be really exciting. It could mean new innovative features and easier case management process, which leads to improved efficiency, improve services and outcomes. You could find a system that would help with documentation times. You can reduce that, and then that way the counselor can spend more time with their participants. So I think just seeing what's out there and what's available to help you write that RFP is huge.   Carol: Sarah, how about you? What's your perspective on making sure those fiscal pieces are addressed as they are thinking about RFPing?   Sarah: Oh goodness. There's so many perspectives to consider here. I think first and foremost states need to understand period of performance. I feel like that's a term that we make really complicated. And it's really nothing more than just looking at the funding sources that are available and understanding the timeline that agencies can obligate and expend funds. So I think, first and foremost, understanding period of performance. The second key piece really is understanding state requirements. We have a lot of states that aren't either aware of what their state requires, or there are things that are in place that they think is required by the state. And when we start doing a deep dive into what that looks like, sometimes those things really aren't state requirements. It's something that somebody put into place years ago that everybody just thought was what was required. So I think understanding those two things. And then third, I would say understanding what your end game is when you're working with a fiscal and a case management system, and we're looking at just sheer fund accounting and tracking those funds all the way through and then being able to report at the end of that cycle. And so I oftentimes will tell states, if you kind of look at the end game, look at the reporting that's required at the end, it really kind of establishes the things that are necessary along the way in terms of system adaptations, structure, configuration.   Carol: So definitely I'm going to tie you two together when a state is going out and they're looking at doing the RFP, you want to really think about your complete process so that you've got all the right team members in place from the get go, which can't just be the program side of your house. And I remember us doing this back in Minnesota as we were going through the requirements. It's like, what are those fiscal people doing here? They're all important. Like you need all the pieces together, talking through how this system is going to work, how you're going to connect to your statewide accounting system. So that becomes really important. Now, I know I was on a call, I want to say within the last three, four months and we had a state say, yeah, we're thinking about RFP for a new system to go into place January 1st. And Brittny, I want to kick this to you. What is a realistic time frame if somebody is considering a new case management system, is it really possible to do that in, uh, maybe eight months or so or not? What do you think is a good timeline?   Brittny: I think this really depends on several factors as far as a timeline when considering a new case management system, typically it could take up to six months to develop that RFP. And it's really doing some background homework, seeing what's out there, doing a business process analysis and understanding your own business processes. But typically, I'd say depending on agency size, how many years of converted data you're looking at, converting it into the new system. And I know there's federal requirements, but there's also state requirements that are sometimes even longer than the federal ones. And then also if there's any interfaces. So if you have other systems that are connecting to your current case management system, this is going to make a huge difference, because now you've got a lot of different teams having to help out with the specifications and then also test the system. So you've got to think of their timelines as well. And then lastly just that preparedness piece. So how much work did you do up front on the RFP. How much have you analyzed your business processes. And like Sarah had mentioned, are these things that somebody put into place ten years ago, or are these things that are actually a state policy or a federal policy that you're aligning with? I think the typical timeline that I typically see is around 18 to 24 months for the full implementation once you sign in that contract. But again, that could range short or longer depending on that prep work and then that agency size and things like that.   Carol: So eight months is probably a little aggressive.   Brittny: Yeah very, aggressive yeah. But optimistic I like it.   Carol: I love it. So what are some pitfalls that we want to help our listeners avoid as they're kind of tackling this process? And Sarah, I'm going to kick that to you first.   Sarah: First and foremost. And I think the listeners are probably going to see a recurring theme here, as Brittny said, not just taking current system functionality and developing that into a checklist or using that to develop the specifications. I think really sitting down and outlining what are the requirements, what are the things that we're using right now? Where did that come from? And the possibilities going into this process allows a lot of opportunity to think outside the box and think about what are the things that systems currently aren't doing, or things that are requiring a lot more work right now where we could really get creative and do some really cool things. So I think avoiding the pitfall of just not spending that time up front to understand what it is that agencies need, and then also, again, bringing fiscal and program together to understand the requirements from a physical standpoint. A lot of times that is kicked to the finance folks in the House, we're still seeing in a lot of agencies a breakdown or a gap between program and fiscal, and there's a lot of danger and not bringing those two teams together to understand on both sides of the coin, what is it that we need to do? Oftentimes within that space is where a lot of the creative ideas come out and allow greater efficiencies within the agency and more internal controls.   Carol: Very good. Britt, what do you think about pitfalls? What are some things that we could help our folks avoid?   Brittny: Yeah, I once talked to a chief technology officer and he said the two main reasons why usually a case management system implementation fails is because of fiscal and data validation. So hitting those two pieces very hard, making sure that you're not only converting the data into the system, it's almost like that toy where you've got a round circle and you've got to fit it in the round circle. The data conversion doesn't always work like that, and sometimes you're trying to fit that round circle into a square peg. And that's because the way the systems line up. So making sure that you've got individuals on the front end in different roles, looking at that data and then also testing that RSA 911 to make sure things are mapped correctly and going in correctly before you go into production. At one example I've seen of that is significance of disability. And so one system may calculate significance of disability a little bit differently than another system. And even though they've got everything mapped together, doesn't always go hand in hand and can cause some major issues. The fiscal piece, I think Sarah mentioned that quite a bit, but just making sure that you're doing heavy testing and understanding how the system will work, especially when you go into production. Working in a new system, the biggest ones are dealing with authorizations that already have partial payments on it, draft authorizations, pending payments, amending an authorization, and vendor logic. These are all pieces that may be different in that new system. So making sure you're testing every angle and you're prepared for that transition. I think a third suggestion is just my personal preference would be to avoid over customizing the system. So there's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies. And so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well. And sometimes those states like to over customize that system just because they want to have what they've always had. But that ends up being sometimes pretty expensive down the road, because then you're paying for additional testing and maintenance of that customization. So I'd be open minded to changing business processes, or see if you could find your business processes met in a different way and achieving that same result.   Carol: Yeah, I like it. I remember when we had our new case management system and it was built. We went in with all our partners, our WIOA partners, and so we had this kind of groovy new system, but it was supposed to meet all these different needs. Well, it gets complicated, but we couldn't forget about our field people because a lot of those folks in the field. So while you're talking to program, you know, a lot of times it's supervisors and different folks are involved. Having those direct field staff, your VR techs and your counselors who are inputting stuff every day and they're like, hey, this weird thing over here, you know, they may not talk techie, but they can explain the stuff that isn't working so well in getting all of those ideas right from them so they can see, hey, they really can help to impact and influence the system is important.   Brittny: Definitely.   Sarah: You know, Carol, along the lines of what Brittny just shared too, I think there's a caution there in terms of customizations that are in existing systems, whether it's an off the shelf system or a homegrown system. We have a number of agencies that have their own in-house systems. Sometimes there are customizations that work for a particular state or might work for a group of states, but it's not applicable to all states. Again, because we go back to those state requirements. And then sometimes when agencies implement that, it causes some compliance issues because of their own local procurement standards. So asking the question, you know, if they're developing those specifications and not just taking everything from what they're doing or is offered to them currently, but really looking at it with a cursory eye to determine, is this something that we need or we even can use because we're seeing period of performance compliance issues from some system functionalities that are in place that worked for other states that aren't necessarily a one size fits all.   Carol: I think one thing I've noticed too, and I just noticed from the periphery, you know, it's really statewide IT systems and the IT groups have been put together. You know, we see that consolidation happening where you may have had your own IT folks that you were dealing with, and now you have a State Department of IT or something. There's some other consolidated area that has put together different processes or requirements. So I think for some folks, if you're used to maybe the old way when you were entering into this process and maybe doing an RFP and you had more control over everything, you may have a little less because you do have now these sort of statewide IT system requirements. And so it's really important to get hooked up with those folks as well, especially for listeners who may have not done this for a while. Maybe, you know, it's been a long minute since you have looked at your case management system, and you were remembering back a decade ago when it was a little easier. You could just do something a little more at the drop of a dime. But I think the benefit that having those statewide IT groups is they have so much experience. And when they're looking at how they really address putting out an RFP and they can have a lot of their expertise to bring to the table to make sure this gets put together really well. You just want to remember that you may have some other things in play that you didn't have a long time ago. Just a thought. Alright, I know Brittny, when we were talking to you, had some ideas on cool stuff and I love cool stuff. Like, you know, if you're doing your case management system, you said, well, gee, don't, don't just recreate the same old thing like you want to put cool things in place. So do you have ideas like new technology or features or things people could include in their request?   Brittny: Yeah, I've seen dashboards where there's visual dashboards and graphs or pie charts that assist the counselor and case management. So seeing how many individuals they've got enrolled in an education program and how many of those individuals have earned an MSG in the last performance year. And this allows them to check those that haven't and reach out to those participants. I've also seen a central print and mail where the state's just actually the agency put a checkbox in there, and they've got an interface with a local company and that company, they hit the checkbox and everything gets bashed up that night for a letter or anything that they want to mail. And there's a mass every night they mail out all these letters. So that way the counselor could be anywhere. They could be at the school, out in the field, anywhere, mail out a letter, and not have to worry about printing something off and stuffing that envelope. I've also seen invoice payment systems. So systems where vendors can apply to be a vendor, they can document what services agree to terms, things like that. The agency can review them and approve them in there. And then that system can work back and forth with authorizations and payments. So an authorization could be drafted in the case management system could shoot over to this invoice payment system. That vendor can view it, upload documents, invoice against it, put reports and things like that in there, and they can communicate back and forth to one another. I've also seen states exploring various ways to integrate artificial intelligence and case management systems. So I know you did a podcast on one that was kind of outside the case management system, but I'm hearing a lot of states be interested in how to integrate it in the case management system, whether it's in case notes or informed decisions across. So I'm really excited to see what states come up with and how they're able to integrate that within. But I think that's a great idea.   Carol: I love that whole area of artificial intelligence. It was super fun when we did the podcast with Washington General, because they had that really cool piece that was, you know, an add on. It was kind of outside of the system. But boy, the staff love it. But there's a lot of possibilities. I know we were kicking around on the team about ways you could use AI within VR. I mean, when you think about the development of plans, even the way you speak about things, to make it more plain language, and I still I think people are so freaked out a little bit about AI and you go, gosh, it's all over. You know, it is in our whole world. It's when you're talking to Siri or Alexa, you know, every day you go to the airport and you're getting your eyes scanned to get through, Clear whatever you may do. It's just integrated into everything we do. I think that is a really fun, developing new area that has a lot of possibility for the case management systems. Sarah, did you have any ideas too, about any cool possible groovy tools? Maybe fiscally related? I didn't mean to put you on the spot.   Sarah: No, that's okay. We haven't seen as much innovation on the fiscal side, although I think that there are a lot of opportunities. I think, again, in the AI world, I think mapping that out, looking for the possibilities, it goes back to what I said earlier, just being an innovative thinker and looking at what are the challenges and efficiencies that we're battling and what are some of those possibilities that we can use to address that. Staff recruitment retention continues to be a challenge in our VR world and especially in the fiscal arena. And as staff look to bolster their internal controls and the program at large, looking for some of those opportunities. So I don't know that I have as many cool things like Brittny shares, but I'm hoping that we'll see those on the horizon.   Carol: Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot of possibility out there now. I know Sarah, you had developed a tool that coincided with the 2023 spring CSV conference because a lot of folks were asking like, okay, what do I do with my case management system and the fiscal requirements and all of that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because even though we felt like we widely publicized it, people are still like what? There was a tool. I don't know anything about it.   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still excited about it. So we developed a fiscal technology checklist for case services last year in conjunction with the period of performance training that we offered at the conference. And we found that in our technical assistance to state VR agencies around this topic, there's a gap in communication between either the CMS companies and VR, or even if an agency has their own internal program, a gap in communication between the program and fiscal and whoever those IT experts are. So we took that opportunity to map out all of the areas to consider. And so when we're working with agencies under the VRTAC-QM to analyze their processes and look at how their systems are set up, there's a linear fashion and way of looking at that. For instance, is the system set up on a state fiscal year or a federal fiscal year? There's a lot of agencies that have a system set up on a state year that really doesn't make sense for reporting, and it's causing a lot of challenges on the financial side with producing reports for the RSA 17, for example. And they thought that that's the way they had to have it set up. There's very few states that have very state specific requirements that would necessitate that. So it's not that it never would work, but it involves sort of a deep dive into why do we have our systems set up and is that necessary? The other big piece are the budgets. How are budgets set up within the system? Does it map out to the available fund sources that are available to the agency? And then there's a ton of bells and whistles that act as internal controls in the back of a case management system that really dictate how the system behaves and helps the agency navigate through period of performance. And so it's going through a whole list of considerations to make sure that the agency is well equipped to manage period of performance, manage those different fund sources and make them able to do that reporting at the end. So it's a really good list. And honestly, as states are struggling with that communication piece, particularly with the companies that they work with or through the process to develop a new case management system, it's a very nice way of considering all of those different elements that need to go into either evaluating the current system or looking at a new system to make sure that it's meeting exactly what their state requires while still taking into account those federal requirements. So we're constantly reverting folks back to that list, and hopefully agencies are taking the time to sit down as a team and combining the program and fiscal staff to walk through that, to make sure that they understand all of those elements. And if they have questions, we have a number of trainings that we offer through the VRTAC-QM to assist with that. We've even had some agencies seek out that training before they start developing those lists for their RFPs, to make sure that they both understand from a physical standpoint what all those requirements are. So anyway, it's Fiscal Technology Checklist for Case Services. It is on our website, I'm sure. Carol, you're probably going to mention that and hint, hint it is available to the public. So I know that there's been some current CMS companies that have gone out and looked at that piece also, so that they can better understand and hopefully fill in the gap for that communication gap exists so that everybody's talking the same language and on the same page.   Carol: Yes, of course, I have to make a shameless plug for our lovely website. So you will go to vRTAC-QM.org and we have a top navigation header. You can go right to resources and everything's listed under the CSAVR Spring 2023 Session Recordings and Materials. And it actually was Session Two is where you can find that checklist. But if you scroll through you can actually listen to Sarah's session recording. And then you can see the checklist there as well, as well as all of our other awesome sessions from the 2023 Spring Conference. Oh, thanks for that. So how about other words of wisdom from you fine ladies? Because I think of you both as just like, oh my gosh, such powerhouses in the case management system. Brittny, I'm going to go to you first.   Brittny: I've got a few. I think the first one is to be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. So I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes. I would also allocate staff specifically for this project, and I think we mentioned it already a little bit earlier. But looking at those projects subject matter experts and making sure you've got the right people at the table. So this is going to be administration, IT, but also your fiscal people, your front end people. It's really important to make sure that you have some direct service or direct field staff that are knowledgeable and have a long agency history that you can integrate into that project as well, and they can provide feedback. I would also have a designated project manager that could be somebody. You within your department, or that could be somebody that you decide to contract out. But I think it's important that they have that project management experience because it is a giant project, and it is going to take quite some time to get from that RFP contract to implementation. I'd also weave in changes as much as you can. So during the project, you'll start to have the opportunity to see the differences between the two systems, your current one and your new system. And so if there's any way that you can weave in changes early and often, this will help that transition for staff much, much easier. And then also as you're preparing or updating revising business processes, that also helps with that piece of it. I've seen states do statewide quarterly demos to kind of show staff the new system and help them kind of process that change along the way. And lastly, I would definitely emphasize not to overlook accessibility. I'd pull in your accessibility users early to begin testing the system, and then also integrating those accessibility terms into training documents. I think one thing I learned is that using language accessibility language is huge. I couldn't imagine trying to learn a new system and somebody saying, use a dropdown box. But yet my system is calling it a combo box. So using that terminology and making this transition much easier for all staff.   Carol: Awesome points. I want to highlight a couple, that be curious. I can't emphasize that enough. There are so many agencies where I'm going to call it urban Legend. You're doing something because everybody always says, RSA said. You have to do that and RSA will come out. I've been in monitoring. They're like, we never told you that. Whatever that is in your system, you made that up like you made that happen. So I love that being curious because you want to ask questions. A lot of times you just go with the flow. You know, somebody put it in play 20 years ago and then you just keep bringing it forward. So I love that. And definitely when you talk about dedicating staff, you want to make sure you dedicate those staff, but you also want to think about all of the other roles that have been assigned to that person. You cannot put them as the project manager of this whole project, and they're still maintaining all their field services duties and doing all the other stuff, because this really is a full time job. And I know I'm going to apologize right here to Natasha Jerde. We had her as a project manager for our new case management system. At the same time, she's, you know, rewriting our policy and procedure manual and doing a million other things because I just had zero clue at how much went into this. And that was really it's really terrible. And I've actually seen some of the staff across the country burn out. We've had people retire early. They're like the case management system process killed me. So when you're dedicating staff, please do give them some time to do it. And don't expect that they're not going to work an 80 hour workweek because that is not so fabulous. But I loved your points, Brittny, those are great. How about you, Sarah? Any words of wisdom?   Sarah: Yes, thank you. I think we constantly hear from state agencies about silos. How do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times in our discussion today, but I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships and I know even from the agency that I came from, the introduction that I had to the program side was through a new case management system conversion. And at first I showed up at the table. And Carol, like you said earlier, people were like, who invited her? Why is she here? Does she need to be here? People wouldn't talk and share ideas. And then as we both committed to developing that relationship and understanding one another better, not only did we end up with a quality product, but we had quality services, we had better management and leadership within the agency. So looking at it as an opportunity sort of through that lens, engage the folks in the field as well. Sometimes as leaders, we tackle these types of projects and we think the folks in the field are too busy. And really the best ideas can come from our counselors and those individuals who are supporting in those roles our field staff, our fiscal agents. And I know we have a separate training on that that we offer VR agencies, but engaging them in that process and getting their ideas on, hey, what's working and what's not working? What are the challenges that you're facing so that as you are curious to Brittny's point, you're taking into consideration maybe some of those wins that you can secure on the other side and maybe cut out some process or things while still meeting those requirements and engaging in those efficiencies. The other thing I would offer, and we're having lots of discussions now about fiscal forecasting and spending strategies within VR agencies, as VR agencies are getting over the hump of Covid and taking a look at what their spending looks like, the case management system really is a system of record. And as we look at the statewide accounting system and in its function, we can't ignore the case management system and the role that it plays in navigating through all those fiscal requirements. And so if we think about the CMS sort of as the VR checkbook, and when we are authorizing for services and obligating funds, not only are there requirements around how to do that and how to capture that, looking at the individual sources of funds that we have available, it really is a way to capture those obligations within a checkbook so that we can take a look at any point in time from a leadership standpoint, what is our financial position? And so being able to look at how much do I have in my 23 carryover checkbook and how much do I have in 24. And plan ahead so that I can make decisions around re-allotment and I can think ahead so that we're not leaving funds on the table and lapsing funds at the back end of our of our award. It really is important that we look at how we capture all of that in the case management system in a way that allows us to continue managing our programs with a strong fiscal focus. So tying all of that in is also important at a higher level, so that we can use the data to make quality financial decisions.   Carol: Well said, well said. So in case our listeners want to get a hold of either of you, would you mind sharing your email address, Brittny?   Brittny: Yes, definitely. My email address is bMacIver So m a c I v e r@sdsu.edu. It's also available on our VRTAC website. If you go to our staff you'll see my email address there as well.   Carol: Excellent. Sarah, how about you.   Sarah: Yes thank you. It's sClardy. so, that's s c l a r d y at Sdsu.Edu.   Carol: Thanks so much I appreciate you both joining me today. Have a great one, you guys.   Brittny: Thanks.   Sarah: Thank you.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

In this week's episode we sit down with Anne Rajoo to explore the concept of Peaceful Productivity. Anne shares the necessary mindset shifts to move from constant busyness to a more serene and effective work approach. We delve into practical strategies for identifying needle-moving actions, delegating tasks, and removing distractions, as well as essential advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest. Anne also highlights the importance of self-care in sustaining productivity and offers her recommended practices. Additionally, we cover how delegation can future-proof your business and how to view a Virtual Assistant as an investment in growth and peace rather than a cost. This episode aims to inspire and guide quietly rebellious entrepreneurs towards being more efficient while maintaining peace of mind, in line with humane marketing principles. In this episode we talked about: Anne's definition of Peaceful Productivity The necessary mindset shifts to move from constant busyness to peaceful productivity Strategies for identifying needle-moving actions and delegating or removing distractions Advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest The importance of self-care in sustaining productivity, and recommended practices How delegation can help future-proof our businesses Shifting perspective to see a VA not as a cost, but as an investment in growth and peace And so much more -- Peaceful Productivity Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop. To hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Welcome back friends. Today I'm talking to Anne Rajoux about peaceful productivity. I put it under partnership because you're either partnering with yourself to be more productive or you're delegating some tasks and partnering with someone else. Before I tell you a bit more about Anne, just a quick plug and reminder that if you're listening to this on the day that it comes out, June 28th, you have two more days to take advantage of the 400 off with the super early bird for the Marketing Like We're Human [00:03:00] program. As of June August 22nd, I'll take another cohort through my flagship program that goes really deep into creating your foundational marketing clarity by starting with yourself and bringing more of you to your marketing. And that's actually not just for Beginning entrepreneurs, often the people who come to the program, they're already two or three years in, because it's something that we kind of don't have time when we're first starting out. We're just putting quickly our website together and, you know, then immediately go on Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram. And we forget about that foundational clarity, especially making sure that it. It comes from within. It comes from who we are. So it really is a transformational program that helps you grow into that person that achieves the goals that you set yourself. People ask me about the outcomes. [00:04:00] Yes. You know, it's about resonance with clients and yes, you will get more clients because you grow into that person that can get more clients. So it's about marketing, but it's so much more. It's so much deeper. Have a look at the details humane dot marketing forward slash program and you find an orange button there to book a call with me Do that as soon as possible Again, if you're listening before June 30th You should get the 400 off and if you're listening to this in July, you still benefit from the early bird, which is 200 of the group rate and of course if you're Since you're listening to this podcast, you're really already familiar with the seven Ps and that's what we go into depth in, and it's a hybrid program, so there's a, a video piece to the program with extensive workbooks. I've worked on this program for a whole year in 2019, ran through it with three [00:05:00] beta groups, so it's a solid. Really a solid program. And you can see that in the case studies and testimonials that you find on this page. I'd love to have you in the group. I think if you're listening to this podcast, you know what humane marketing is all about. You know that, you know, we're creating change and to create that change, well, you need to bring it out there into your marketing, your worldview, your values, more of you, all of that. Okay, back to Anne. So Anne is a creative force behind peaceful productivity with the goal to guide dynamic and ambitious women on a journey towards a mindful mastery of work and life, reshaping the way we perceive productivity. Additionally, she's the founder of virtual Virtufully a boutique launch VA agency that empowers female entrepreneurs to introduce their products, services, and [00:06:00] programs in a peaceful yet impactful way with support, compassion, and integrity. Anne's dream of living an extraordinary life has brought her from a tiny village in East Germany to London and eight years ago to Mauritius, where she lives with her husband and two boys. She's on a mission to join forces to redefine success and create a harmonious blend of professional achievement and success. And personal fulfillment and, and I talked about humane business and, you know, what that means for her. And I'm going to include her story in, in the new book that's coming up. And then from there. We're like, she, she was telling me about peaceful productivity and you can tell from the bio that our worldviews are just so much aligned. So in this episode, we talked about Anne's definition of peaceful productivity, the necessary mindset shifts to move from [00:07:00] constant busyness to peacefulness. To peaceful productivity strategies for identifying needle moving actions and delegating or removing distractions advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest, the importance of self care in sustaining productivity and recommended practices, how delegation can help future proof our businesses, and then shifting perspective to see a VA not as a cost, but But as an investment in growth and peace, I hope you'll enjoy this episode as much as Anne and I enjoyed recording it. Hi Anne, how are you? It's so good to have you on the podcast. Anne: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here, Sarah. Sarah: Yeah, it's lovely to have you. And this, as we were sharing before we hit record this topic of peaceful productivity, I think [00:08:00] it's just so needed right now. You and I had a little conversation about the third book that I'm writing about business, like we're human and how that really fits in with peaceful productivity. Right. And that's why I, I wanted to have this conversation with you. So why don't you start by sharing how you define peaceful productivity? Like, what does that Anne: mean for you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, it's so interesting. It's, it's still very much an evolving concept and journey for myself, but really it's, it's this intersection between the doing and creating the output and achieving the goals that we've set, creating the input that we're here in the world to, to create, but also maybe not doing as much and doing more in the sense of enjoying life and enjoying the moment, being present, really tuning into what lights [00:09:00] me up and what are things that I don't really like to do or want to do and, and, and focusing on this mix. Yes. Okay. We, we have to create some sort of work and maybe have a routine and, and have some outcome, but at the same time, there's more to being productive than just showing, oh, I hit my goals. I've ticked the boxes. I've crossed out all the to do's on my list, because at the end of the day, if we don't have that balance, Then we often hit burnout. So many people have gone through that. I've gone through that myself several times. So it's this mixture of the doing that being, and, and just changing the mindset about what it means to be productive. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much. And I think there's, there's so much pressure. On this productivity, you know, yes, you were sharing just before that you were in a corporate job. And so there's the, that kind of [00:10:00] pressure there where, you know, productivity is linked to how you climb up the ladder, but then funnily enough, most entrepreneurs then take that with them into entrepreneurship. Right. And it's not like we say, Oh, now I'm, I'm my own boss and now I can, you know, decide how I'm going to be productive. No, we still have this idea of, no, I need to work at least eight, if not 10 hours per day and do all of these things. So. It's, it's so true. It's really this mindset shift that we, we need to, we need to make in order to, yeah, make it a peaceful productivity. So yeah, it's so, so, so relevant. So how do you feel with the work that you're doing with, with your clients? How do you feel about the societal shift? Pressure, like, does that come over in your conversations with clients? Is that a thing that they often mention? Anne: Yeah. I [00:11:00] mean, it's really often conversations of like, and there's just too much to do. I have all these ideas. I have all these other responsibilities. Most of my clients are moms who have a business and it's just, it's constantly feeling like there is not enough time in the day. There's too many things to do. There's all this pressure of like, Oh, Business should be done in this certain way, because that's how people are used to doing business. You've got to show up consistently, and you have, it's all these halves that we, we see elsewhere, and, and you work with people, I mean, like, I mean, I'm totally into coaching, and I have. Support and all of that. But quite often I feel like a lot of people also kind of get a bit confused with, you should be doing it like this and that's the process. And if you don't do it, then you do it wrong or you're not going to achieve the outcome. And it's all these like mixed messages that we receive. And then that in a [00:12:00] sense of like, it's not working for me. This is not the life that I want to build. This is not why I came into business. And it's, it's a lot of that, like feeling. Overwhelmed, feeling like just constantly too much to do, not knowing where to start, and then feeling quite confused. And yeah, it was so You know, going, going down on, on yourself, like a lot of women have that tendency of being quite negative. They're just not working hard enough. Or today you took too much time to clean the kitchen instead of doing that thing. And like all that inner talk that we have. And that's a lot of conversations that I hear. And a lot of women are pretty fed up with that constant inner dialogue. And this feeling of like just never achieving. Or never Coming up to that level of the expectations they have on themselves or also that society has on them And just yeah, not feeling like they holding up with that Grand image [00:13:00] that we we should represent today that women can do so many things and we couldn't do it all We have it all and they don't feel like that really Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so many things you said resonated. It's this idea of the shoulds and and I've also this idea of perfectionism. What comes up for me also in the entrepreneurial world is this image that everything should be free. You know, we should have all these free things and free content and content creation, content columns. All of this stuff. Production that we're creating that is not paid time and that over the last 15 years has been kind of Like put in the spotlight as that's just how you are supposed to run a business as an entrepreneur. And when you kind of counter position that with someone who is in a paid job, it, it, it's, it's like, if you think about it, it's [00:14:00] crazy how much time as entrepreneurs, we are supposedly just being productive for free compared to someone who has a paid job. Right. Right. And I think that's part of also my revolution in terms of the humane business, humane marketing, it's like, Well, who says we have to spend all of this time for free productivity, right? Like I can, I'm my own boss, you're your own boss. So we decide where it ends. Yes, obviously it's a good thing and I still am for that, that there's free offers. But, but there's a limit to it because otherwise we burn out. So right now we're, we're hosting this expo in the humane marketing circle, and it's kind of like a summit. But when you look at these other summits out there and you then talk to the summit hosts after the summit, they're all exhausted and burned [00:15:00] out. I know because I've been there, like I've hosted five summits. You too. And it's exhausting and it's all for free. And it's like, in the end, also when you ask them, honestly, what did you get up? Yes. Lots of contacts, but not really, you know, the money equation doesn't always really work out. So it's just kind of like questioning all our assumptions, I guess as well. Right. So having that conversation, like you said. Well, is this working for you? And if it isn't, how are you going to do it differently? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anne: Yeah. For me, this brought up so many more societal thoughts there as well, because obviously as women, we are, we are often raised to give, you know, to take care of other people, again, give free content, give. Free, whatever it is. And also this whole money mindset thing. A lot of women struggle with me included, you know, like how much is my home, but what's my worth, [00:16:00] how much can I charge and what's too much. And I want to be accessible to many people because I want to change the world. I mean, this is a lot of conversations I have, and that goes in my, my own dialogue as well, and I want to make it. Available for the greater good, but then at the end of the day, yeah, the time and money equation doesn't always work out very well. So those things and again, it's like sometimes you have to be a bit rebellious in your sense to be like, okay, yeah, this is I see a lot of people do it. Like this, it's not working for me. I've got to do it differently. And that can be uncomfortable Sarah: and Anne: challenging to actually go and do it. But this is exactly what, why I came up with peaceful productivity because yes, I love being productive, but the way I've been doing it was just not working at all. So something was missing and that's the peaceful part. And like, just what you described in the marketing world as well, it's not always working properly and it can definitely be improved and changed. Sarah: [00:17:00] I want to go into, you know, your framework of the peaceful productivity, but beforehand I just also want to mention a book that we both love which is essentialism by Greg McCown. It's still my absolute favorite business book. And, and you said you loved it as well. So, so what kind of. takeaways have you implemented from that book or what were your main aha moments from reading that book? Anne: I think for me it was really bridging this thing of, okay, I've got, I'm, I'm very multi passionate and very multi skilled and I have, and I enjoy having lots of projects going on, but at the same time, always refocusing on like, What's the day to day? How do I feel? And what's really essential to making another step towards the goal and always bringing myself back to that is that really? Should I really be doing that? And something that I've really learned through my work where [00:18:00] I'm also running a virtual assistance agency is like looking at like, what am I doing? And is that really my job? Or is there someone else better suited for that? And how can I use my time better? And for me that spills into my life as well. As a mom of two children I spend a lot of time with my children because that's how, my choice that I'm making. But it's also sometimes, you know, Going back, is it essential for me to be right there with them focused, or is it okay for them to do whatever they're doing, even if it's on the tablet for a little bit, so that I can do my work? It's like really always tuning in. Is it essential? I love the word essential, and then just really looking at the things I'm doing, and then getting rid of the stuff that is not essential. Like really getting rid of it, removing it entirely, or piling it up somewhere else for that time, when it's the right time to look at these things. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And it's similar for me. I love how you differentiated, you know, [00:19:00] business and work to me. It's almost like. They've become one. So it's like the, the, the essential things that I say yes to in work always need to align with the essential things in, in, in my personal life. Right. And so it's very similar to, to what you shared. And I think the one thing also that I take away from that. So it's, it's a, it's very much about decision making. This book is helping you with, like, every time you need to make a decision in your business or in your life, you're going to go back to, is this essential? And I think what he shares also, it's, it's quite easy to, or it's, it gets easier with time to say no to the non essential things. But when you're really mastering it is when you can say no to even things that do matter to you, but you just know that right now is not the right time. Right. And so that's what you said [00:20:00] before. It's like, okay, put them to another folder or like, not now, but, but later or never like, or never because you just know, no, this is not my thing. Not in this lifetime. Exactly. Yeah. True. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Well, let's move on to your framework of peaceful productivity. Tell us a little bit about how you work with people through this idea of being more productive, but in a peaceful way. Anne: Yeah. So for me, a peaceful productivity has three pillars. One is the productivity tools, hacks, techniques, whatever you want to call them, all these You know, applications to Pomodoro technique, finding your high performance time, like we all different in like, some people work better in the morning. Some people work better later in the afternoon or evening, like really looking at, you know, what are the [00:21:00] things that work for me, trying some on for size and see what fits and then letting go of others, because not, not one technique works for everyone. Also like looking at what phase in your life are you in, what, what You know, what does your day look like and how can you make it more productive using the tools and techniques that are available? And then there's the mindset, which is a lot of what, what we just talked about, the societal beliefs that we have, you know, ingrained in us, the beliefs That we have developed over time, like, you know, often attaching our well value and worth to our output and looking at what's there that maybe is not working quite well and what's there that we maybe have to change. And then the third pillar is creativity, because for me, creativity is essential. Personally, I get a lot of energy from doing something creative, so it could really be doing the creative stuff and being like drawing and making, but you don't have to be an artist. So really. [00:22:00] Identify yourself as a creative. The creativity can also be in terms of, let's try something different. Let's play around with what we have. Today looks like that. What technique can I put in here? What mindset will I look at today? And just piling it up in a big, You know, pot and mixing it up and just be creative about it and see what the outcome is problem solving. Obviously, we all mostly know that creativity helps with problems problem solving. So it's that part of like playful and just trying things that maybe you haven't tried before because that's when things could shift like, Oh, Interesting. That was actually quite nice. And I didn't expect that to work so well for me. Let's do, let's focus on that and let's hone in on that. So it's really these three elements. And I work with, with clients, mostly one on one where we have a sort of audit or assessment of like, what's there right now, going in all the different pillars that I've just mentioned. Then we [00:23:00] come together, we have a conversation, we share some, You know, thoughts and tips that I have gained over the period of time that I've been doing that and I help my clients to implement then because obviously we have a lot of knowledge, but if we don't go and You know, find a way to have that going on a daily basis. Not, not much is going to change. So it's that process of like identify what's happening right now, see what can be changed and improved and then implementing and refining. And that's my camera gone again, because you're back. Sarah: That's yeah, that's, that's great. I love how you combine the doing. Or, or more like the. The left brain, which is the tools and the strategies with the right brain, which is the creativity, right? Because I think kind of in the traditional way that I've seen people talk about productivity, it's mainly like. Left brain, it's like, you know, Excel spreadsheets [00:24:00] in that kind of more, yeah, left brain approach. And I love how you bring in the creativity, which makes it much more fun for your clients to, yeah, to be productive. I love that. Yeah. Can you, maybe you mentioned the Pomodoro technique. Can you maybe, well, for people who don't know what that is, share about that. And then maybe you have one other strategy that you, or tool that, that you usually give clients and would like to share here. Anne: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Pomodoro is this concept of you work for a stretch of, I believe, 20 minutes, and then you take a break and then you go back to work and you take a break and so on and so on. And, and theoretically you would put on a timer and you literally just have that chunk of work. time to work, which is interesting because what really happens is that if we allow an hour for a task, the task likely is going to take an hour. If we say, okay, I only have 20 minutes to work on this. We, we [00:25:00] actually might achieve that task in the 20 minutes, or we break it down in different chunks because our brain needs that break. The mistake that a lot of us make, and I still sometimes make, is that we try to focus so hard and really just work through it and push through the job at hand so that we can take it off the to do list, but our brain doesn't quite work so well, so we get into these dips of focus time and Performance and that's when taking little breaks in between really increases the brain function and the work that we can achieve. So personally, I don't do the Pomodoro technique. I work more in 90 minutes chunks because that's kind of works better for my, for my day and how it's set up because my day is very split into morning work, afternoon kids and a little bit of evening, evening work. But yeah, it's again, it's like this. I've tried the Pomodoro. I didn't quite like it. I find the 90 minutes a bit better for me. But then the other thing that I [00:26:00] really enjoy and that has changed a lot for me is the whole idea of making a plan. I'm a planner. That's what I am, who I am. And I love spreadsheets. But I, I don't like making a whole year of plan has never worked for me because I would lose track and would be like, Oh yeah. You know, I still have six months until December. I'll do it one day and then I never got to do it. But now I really, I look at three month planning chunks, and then I create a monthly plan, a weekly plan. Yeah, monthly, weekly. And I have my daily like morning rituals where I sit down and I look at the week and I'm like, okay, what am I going to do today? And it's breaking it down and taking the intentional time. I mean, that's like 5 to 10 minutes per day, maybe where I really look at the planning side of things. And I select. The top three priorities that are kind of my non negotiables for the day and then a few other things that [00:27:00] I think I could chunk in. And I always have three sort of self care, creative, joyful things that I put on my list because again, that part is really, really important to feel peaceful. But that really has helped me so much of not feeling this constant, Oh, what am I doing today? Hey, where am I even going to start? Where was where was I with this project? And then at the end of the month you kind of look at the things you've done and like yeah I've done a lot. I've worked a lot, but I didn't actually achieve the goal that I was set to achieve and that's happened to me a lot of like constantly working but not getting to where I wanted to get because I lost sight of What's the plan? So yeah, that's really powerful for me Sarah: Yeah, I love that so much. And I have a similar approach with the, you know, breaking down the months. For me it's more like because of my, my, the way I run my programs. So it's very much backwards planning from day one. Okay, [00:28:00] here's where I run my program, what needs to happen to leading towards that program, and then everything daily and weekly activities run around these programs. Right? And, and so I, I really agree with that, that we need to always be, and, and I, on my, on my daily planner. I have like the top one says the big goal, you know, it's like, this is, yeah, this is what I'm working towards. And, and, and then be reminded of that because yeah, otherwise you're constantly putting out fires and, you know, spending tons of times in email without actually getting to anywhere. And what I like also about having those three, sometimes it's four priorities of the day. Then when you have reached these priorities and I tried to always not make them like this big giant thing that I know I cannot accomplish in a day, then, you know, you [00:29:00] can actually turn off the computer after these three or four things. Right. And then that feels good where otherwise you never actually feel like you've done enough because you haven't given yourself a container. So, yeah, I love that very much. What you shared. And then. The, the, the peaceful parts, the, you know, self care things. I do have, no, I don't have that. I have a mantra on mine, which I sometimes kind of just kind of give myself a little, you know, energy boost, but, but I like the way how you say, okay, what, what kind of fun thing I'm, am I doing that's actually on my Google calendar, I always have my, I go for a daily walk. That's blocked out or I have the gym. So, so, but I, I'll add them on that, on that daily printout as well. I like that. I love Anne: the ticking off, you know, like I've done it and I need to write it down on my list because I'm that kind of person who will first thing, drop all the, the fun and the, the, the [00:30:00] self care things because I'm so much like, Oh, I want to make, like, I just love what I'm doing. And I love. Creating in that way that I'm the first to forget, like to walk and to eat and I need to write it down on the list to make sure that, you know, I remind myself, this is also very important. This is important Sarah: to you. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. You mentioned earlier that you're also running a virtual assistant business or agency, right? So. In a way that probably fits into this conversation very well, because what we just shared is all about being productive, but also kind of demonstrating. Well, you can't do it all right. Like, there's just so much. to do to run a business that it's actually a very smart thing to work with someone else who enjoys doing the small things that you don't have time to. And so that's what, what [00:31:00] you're doing also with your VA business. I do feel that I, I do. I feel like that's one of the things that I did right from the get go. I've been working with VAs for 15 years. There's so many things I didn't do, but that one I did well. And yet I, I still find a lot of resistance from entrepreneurs because they see it as an expense, right? And it is. You know, yes, you have to have the money, but it's this chicken and the egg thing. Like, you know, when do I have enough money? And so, yeah, talk to us about that, how we can shift this mindset for people do not see it as an expense, but as an investment in their business. Yeah, exactly. Anne: Totally. I mean, the investment really is in. Your own time and buying back your own time. So if you feel that there's just too much to do, I have all these great ideas, but I never have enough time. Well, then [00:32:00] it's perfect to invest. And it doesn't have to be a full time role and, and, you know, one VA doing hours and hours of work. VAs can work for just a few hours a week and they can take off a few things off your plate that really you don't have to do because they don't require you as the person, as the face of your business. To execute that task, especially the admin things. I mean, I, I really don't enjoy admin. So I definitely give that to BAs. I've always have, because it's just not what I enjoy. And why would I want to spend my precious energy and precious time on the things that I don't like doing? This is exactly what I used to do in a corporate job where you just had to do it because your boss told you, well, now I have the Freedom as the boss of myself to decide which task I do and which task I give to the team. But is this resistance of like, okay, it's going to cost me money. Is the person really going to do it as well as I can, because I'm, you know, I have my certain way and I have my [00:33:00] very high standards. That's the perfectionist that comes through in a lot of people. But at the end of the day, you don't like, again, you don't necessarily give away the very precious task. You give away some tasks that are. Necessary to run your business. They are not what you have to do as like your expertise, your skill. And there's someone else who can probably do it better, faster, and who enjoys it. Like you said, there's people who enjoy these kinds of things versus you might just be really good at something else. And it doesn't have to be many hours. I mean, this is also the perception that, okay, I've got to give a VA a stable number of hours, a stable task. It could be a VA who comes in for a certain project. For example, I don't know, for your book writing, I'm sure there is tasks that you don't do on a daily basis, but you do it because you have your book to create, and then the VA can support you on a project, and then next month you don't work with the VA. It's all possible. It's just a way of, a question of reaching out and [00:34:00] finding the right person. Sarah: Right. I think maybe it's a little bit about this fear. Well, how am I going to find the right person? Right. And, and then I, I do remember in the early days, I've had, you know, You know, many experiences that didn't work out, but in a way, that's also how you learn, because I think it really is a way you need to learn how to work with a virtual assistant, because it's all about the communication. It's all about the system. It becomes kind of your employee, whether this person only works for you an hour per week, you Or, or has a full time job, you still need to communicate as if she was your employee. Because, you know, that's, that's where things go wrong, I think most of the time when people say, Oh, I tried to work for the VA, it was horrible, it didn't work out. Well, how did you communicate, you know, did you train her? Like this, this whole idea of, [00:35:00] Yeah, training someone and then making sure, like I created an operations manual for the virtual assistant because, well, right now with, with the one I have, and I've had several, I've been lucky she's been with me for years and years, but what if this person all of a sudden decides, Oh, I'm going back to corporate or who knows, you know, people get. Get busy or get pregnant or whatever. And so that's like, well, if you've spent the time and invested into, you know, creating manuals and videos and things like that, then you can just easily, you know, replace that person and say, okay, here's what you need to know. Let's, you know, when can you train yourself basically, and then. Step in. So it is an investment in your business. It kind of, when you were talking, because I'm a business coach, made me think it's kind of the same [00:36:00] conversation with when is the time to hire a business coach, right? It's like, it's an investment that, you know, will save you time. But it's like, well, if I don't have the money, I'm not ready to invest. And so it's, it's that same thing. It, it gains you back time and life energy and, and yeah, more. You move much faster, but it really is working with someone else. You move faster. You can get more done. And what I talk a lot about in this new book is the spaciousness. You gain spaciousness for being human, which if you're working 10 hour days, because you're creating all this content, being productive by yourself, you don't have that. So. Yeah, and that's Anne: when business is not fun anymore and it's a grind and it's just another job as well because at the end of the day, you're chained to your desk and if you don't produce, you don't have the income and so on, [00:37:00] it's all that chain, the whole chicken and egg conversation. Exactly. But there's two things that came for me that came to my mind. It's like a lot of people are scared of the training aspect. Sarah: Yeah, Anne: I'm going to have to invest my time into training that person. Well, I always feel like, yes, of course you have to, you have to share how you do things and how you want them to be done. But I feel, I believe that if you're clear on what skills does that person need and what are the tasks at hand, and then really look for the person who matches that, You don't necessarily have to train so much because the person likely knows whatever system you're using better because she's been working with different clients on different things and she doesn't need to understand exactly what you do because she already knows the system as such, but then also the other part is the whole concept of like, you can train as you go along. And that's what I have done because I started out as a student. by myself and I was quite resistant to bringing it in, bringing in a team and turning it into [00:38:00] an, into an agency because of exactly the reasons that we discussed, but I have always been very clear to my associate VAs that I'm interested In this transition right now, like, I mean, a little while ago, but I would tell them like, this is what I'm doing. I'm going from single to team. I don't know what I'm doing. And this could be a little bit messy. Are you okay with that? And I think this is important if someone is like, Oh no, I want someone who really tells me A to Z what I'm supposed to do, and here is my list. And if that's how she works or he works perfect, but then unfortunately you're not going to fit with me because with me, it can be a little bit messy. And I'll be like, Oh, what do you think? Like. What are you? What would you do? And how would you create this? And I have loved these conversations because, again, if we are all by ourselves, we often get stuck in our mind like, I don't know. Should I do it like this? Or should I do it like that? And then maybe I don't do it at all because I don't know the answer. But if you have someone that you can bounce ideas, Like a coach or your VA who is very smart often, it, it can really [00:39:00] change the way you do things and the things that you can achieve the outcome you can achieve. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. And, and you're so right. What, what really matters is that you find the right person on a, on a kind of like resonance level, but also on a skill level and. And I feel like people think, oh, I just need one VA to help me with everything. And that's another reason why it often goes wrong, because you actually need to hire for the skill and not just, oh, I need one va. So you really need to, when you interview, you really need to make sure, okay, am I clear what I need help with? And does this person have the skill to help me with this specific thing? So I think that's That's key. Absolutely. The Anne: key. So Correct. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, well, we'll, we'll make sure to actually, why don't you share your website? So if people are listening and they're like, Oh, that sounds like the kind of VA agency [00:40:00] that I would love to work with. Why don't you share your website and do you have different websites for the, I've Anne: got two websites. Exactly. So there's the Sarah: virtual Anne: assistance agency is called the virtual fully like virtual and full service virtual fully. And then where I talk about the peaceful activities and Raju. com. So it's these separate entities. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. And we'll make sure to, to share both websites also in the show notes. And yeah, just kind of to wrap up, like, what would be like, One thing that you would share that where to start with this idea of peaceful productivity, but maybe the first thing that you look at with your clients, you talked about an audit. Maybe, maybe that's it. What would you say is the 1st? Yeah, Anne: yeah. So I've got what I call the wheel of peaceful productivity. So it's, it's. It's a bit similar to the wheel of life where we compartmentalize different areas of how we do work and then we [00:41:00] rank them and that can be in form of a wheel or it could really just be sitting down and thinking, okay, which parts in my day do I enjoy and I feel they are working quite smoothly and I'm very happy with these things and what are areas in my life in my day or times in my day or So, yeah. Jobs that I'm doing tasks that I'm doing in my business that feel not so good. And to then look at, you know, what's the balance at the end, is there a lot more of like what I'm enjoying or is there a lot more of the stuff that's getting on my nerves and that makes me feel quite anxious and overwhelmed? Well, if that's the case, then obviously, you know, that first of all, you could go back to what do you enjoy and how can you bring more of that? That could be, you know, the creativity, the self care, the fun parts. What, what is fun in your business and how can you do more of that in any good way? And then obviously you can look at the things that are not working so well. And you can look at what can I take out again, remove completely? Is it really essential going back to the book [00:42:00] essential? What can I delegate? To a VA or a team member or a partner or whatever it could be. It doesn't even have to necessarily be in business. It could be in other areas of your life. Maybe there's some opportunity there to pass on some responsibility to someone else. And, and really just have that balance sheet and pick one item from the fun and good stuff. And one item from the, from the not so good stuff. And look at what could you do with those things and start from there. And not overwhelm yourself with, I'm going to change everything overnight. Alright. Because that's not going to work. Take it, like, take small, little baby steps. Sarah: Hmm. I love that. Yeah. I love this idea of the wheel so that it gives you this visual of, of your business and where, where you enjoy it and where you're like, Hmm, why am I still doing that? Yeah. That's, that's a good, wonderful. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation and I'm grateful for the work you're doing. I think it's so needed. So thank [00:43:00] you so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast, Anne. Thank you so much. It was a huge pleasure. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and finding more peace in your productivity. Find out more about Ann and her work at annrejoux. com. That's Ann with an E at the end and then R, R, R, R, R, R, R, R. A, J, double O, dot com, or Virtuefully, V, I, R, T, U, and then Fully, dot com. I'm still having trouble with the ABCs because once as a child when you learn your ABCs in a different language, for me in German. You can never change that. It's just like so hard for me to spell out names or, or, or letters. That's why I'm always struggling with this. Anne has created a wonderful free gift. [00:44:00] It's called the Wheel of Peaceful Productivity, which you can get for free going to annerajoo. com wheel of peaceful productivity. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle like and did she just joined our community after recording the podcast. So you'll be able to connect with her and many others in there. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes as always of this beautiful episode at humane. forward slash H M 1 9 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares. [00:45:00] For yourself, your clients and the planet because we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

As property managers you likely know a little bit about mortgages. But do you know about non-QM loan strategies and how your clients and investors can utilize them? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Matt from Nexa Mortgage to talk about using non-QM strategies to unlock your portfolio's potential. You'll Learn [05:46] QM loans VS non-QM loans [16:14] Why Jason and Sarah went with non-QM [22:07] Which one should you choose? [26:46] Why should property managers know this? [32:23] What about long-term rentals Tweetables “If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money.” “If you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win.” “If you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate.” “It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: He said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that.   [00:00:20] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:39] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the CEO and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:23] All right. And today we're hanging out with Matt Dean of Nexa Mortgage, and we're going to have an interesting conversation about financing and loans and I don't know, and some other stuff, but Matt welcome to the show.  [00:01:36] Matthew: Good morning. [00:01:37] Good morning. Thanks for having me.  [00:01:38] Jason: It's good to have you. So give us a little bit of background of how you got into the whole real estate industry and give people a little bit of background on you.  [00:01:49] Matthew: Sure. So, after I graduated from college, which I went to college in Missouri, I ended up moving to Austin, Texas, and one of the first jobs I got was with a commercial finance company and that landed me in Lakeway, which is where I reside now, and have been for over 15 years. But the commercial finance company that I worked with was was a fairly new company that came in from California. The owners Had a mortgage background and had gotten into this commercial finance division. [00:02:15] They had sold off a couple of mortgage companies opened up this division and Lakeway. They were also land developers and commercial finance guys. So they saw a lot of opportunity out here and opened up this company. So anyway, I got in on the ground floor. They were relocating the company here and had a couple year run with that. [00:02:31] And then in early 2000, the .Com kind of came in and blew up that whole industry. So what we were doing was commercial finance, equipment finance really, and at the time it was a lot of computer equipment and I was working with a lot of Dell sales reps that were taking over some of their overflow that Dell didn't want to finance. [00:02:49] So, when all that happened, and it blew up the owners who had the mortgage background really saw that "hey, we're going to see a refinance run here. The market's going to crash rates are going to come down. There's going to be a run." And so they immediately just flip. They had a mortgage company here, but it wasn't early. It was dormant. Yeah. And they flipped it open and and just started building that company out. And so that's ultimately how I got into the mortgage business. And, right after that, we had this really big refinance run. We grew that company very quickly to about 35 employees where we were doing 300 to 400 loans a month with a fairly small company. [00:03:27] And that just, jump straight in and learn the business. And so then in about 2007 ish, 2006 ish, I really got exposed to the investment world, so to speak. I got partnered up with a real estate brokerage here in Austin that focused on investment properties and primarily what they were focusing on was duplexes. [00:03:47] And so that year in 2006, I believe it closed 152 duplex transactions, and it was mainly California investors coming into Austin. And it really just changed my whole perspective of the mortgage industry as opposed to first time buyers or veterans, which I enjoy working with all those folks, but the commercial or the investment world, it's a different animal in that it's less emotion and more about business. And so I really just gravitated more to working with investors, started buying properties myself managed a few properties myself and then, evolved from there. But I worked with that same group and Lakeway for about 12 years and then moved around a couple of places and work for a builder and and a couple other companies. [00:04:29] But anyway, that's how I got in it, got started.  [00:04:31] Jason: Yeah, so you've seen it from a few different angles than the whole real estate investment industry, sounds like. [00:04:37] Matthew: Yeah, I've been through a few of these cycles of ups and downs. Obviously the refinance run early on was, really interesting, but a lot of good, easy money on the table, so to speak, but then we had the crash, which was a very difficult time for a couple of years, although, Austin weathered that storm pretty well relative to a lot of other areas of the country. [00:04:56] So, even though our volumes were down, our real estate didn't see as big of an equity loss and the job market here in Austin's always been really strong. So, it pulled us back out of it fairly quickly. We're in a situation now where rates are high and property values have gone up. [00:05:11] And it's a challenge for some folks here to purchase. A lot of folks are just priced out of the market and can't afford it. And property taxes aren't helping that situation.  [00:05:19] Jason: Yeah,  [00:05:20] Sarah: It's so pricey here. So pricey.  [00:05:22] Matthew: But we're starting to see a little bit of pull back on the values and the houses. It's a little bit more of a buyer's market now, but it still needs to come down a little bit, I think in my opinion, it's to balance the market again.  [00:05:34] Jason: Interesting. So the topic today is unlock your portfolio potential, non QM strategies for real estate investors. And for those that don't know what QM is, which I don't. So educate me. What's QM?  [00:05:47] Sarah: So I handled all of this stuff and Jason got to the closing table and he's like, "I'm an owner in the LLC, right?"  [00:05:54] Matthew: It's like, yeah, I barely talked to you along the way, but anyway, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about QM and how that all started. So, after the real estate crash in the 2006, 2007, eight ish area the CFPB was formed a consumer finance protection bureau, which took over the regulation with the mortgage industry. [00:06:12] It took them a few years, but in 2014 they implemented what was called TRID, which you may have heard that word, but it was where we got rid of the good faith estimate and integrated the new loan estimate and closing disclosure took over. And at that same point in time, the regulations came out and then classified conventional loans or reclassified them as qualified mortgages. [00:06:35] What that means really is the CFPB was trying to put protections in place to protect consumers and also strengthen guidelines to make sure that people or buyers had the ability to repay. So what that really meant was additional restrictions on ability to repay, debt ratio requirements, reserve assets, et cetera. [00:06:55] So, if you do a conventional loan, which is Fannie, Freddie. Those are considered qualified mortgages. They have additional protections in that you're maxed at the amount of fees you can charge a buyer. The APR has to be within guidelines within a maximum. So all those things are really for consumer protection, right? [00:07:14] At the same time, what caused the market crash before was what subprime mortgages. And so at the time, subprime mortgages initially had a place in the market. They really were good for investors because investors were putting money down, they had good credit typically, and they had reserve assets. [00:07:35] When the market shifted, and they started using subprime loans to qualify buyers for primary residences that really had no business buying homes is where it got in trouble. So after QM was announced or came out with CFPB, then they also had non QM loans. What that means is any loan that falls outside of the qualified mortgage guidelines, for whatever reason, can still be funded or it would fall within non QM. [00:07:59] Non QM just meant if you're a lender who does those type of loans, you're now required to hold additional reserve assets in your bank or your mortgage company per loan to cover for the potential higher risk and default.  [00:08:12] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:13] Matthew: And it took a few years from 2014. The market started to come out with products in 2015. [00:08:18] The industry was really not sure how to handle it. A lot of banks didn't want to even dive into it. And then it started to evolve. And "okay, there's a big market here." So now it's one of the fastest growing segments of the market and banks have realize or figured out how to meet the ability to repay guidelines with alternative methods, right? [00:08:41] So you don't have to have W2s and tax returns and pay stubs, which a conventional QM loan would require. Now, they look at different factor, like, 12 months business bank statements. I can look at a CPA prepared profit and loss statement, I can look at just the rent income on the property and that's what's classified or called DSCR. [00:09:03] And then also it's asset based loans where we just look at the asset and we turn the asset into a revenue stream. So that's really how non QM started and really what it is. It's just an alternative way of qualifying the mortgages that falls outside of the Fannie Freddie conventional type of loans. [00:09:21] Jason: Got it.  [00:09:21] Sarah: So what does that mean for investors? Because we have some investors that listen to us and we have some property managers who work with investors. So what would that mean for an investor that is looking to get into more investment properties?  [00:09:39] Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. So, the challenge that a lot of investors run into is a lot of them are self employed and a lot of them start accumulating property. [00:09:48] So if they fall into either one of those categories, either they're self employed. Or they've accumulated a lot of properties or both, right? The challenge becomes with qualified mortgages is from an income perspective, right? So good CPAs are going to try and shelter income for self employed borrowers and for investors by showing, minimal profits or minimal or losses on their properties. [00:10:11] And so, as investors start to accumulate more properties, it becomes more challenging to qualify for conventional loans, because for every property on a conventional loan, Fannie and Freddie want additional reserve assets. So that means you start getting 6 properties, you need assets for each one of those properties on top of down payment funds for the purchase property and the reserves on that property. [00:10:33] So, from two perspectives, either an income perspective, where we have a challenge again, a self employed borrower shows losses on his tax returns for the last 5 years by design, because he doesn't want to pay taxes, or we've got multiple properties also showing losses when I'm looking at income on a conventional loan basis, I have to use the income from the tax return. [00:10:52] So losses can be a problem. Also, the reserve requirements, so, taking into those two scenarios, you've got a self employed borrower that, let's say they, they have gross revenue of half a million dollars, but they're showing losses of, 50-60-70,000 dollars. We're just looking at 12 months bank statements in that case, which gives us gross revenue and then we back out of a factor of say, 25 to 30 percent for taxes and we use that as revenue or income to qualify. If we have an investor that, let's say, not necessarily self employed they have multiple rental properties that are basically just, showing losses and now their income is diminished to where they can't qualify. [00:11:32] Then we have the debt service coverage ratio programs. Like, we utilize with your property where we're looking at just the rent on the property. Right? So the rent the market rent or the short term rental just needs to cover the principal interest, taxes, insurance and fees. And so those are 2 products that we use and that's really how, I would say it helps investors in those scenarios. [00:11:54] The other products that we could look at are P& L products meaning that ACPA provides a P& L statement, and then we can use that income, or if they have significant assets just in investment funds and whatnot, we can turn that into a revenue stream. But the bottom line is it just eliminates the need for W 2s, tax returns, or pay stubs, and we look at other alternative income sources to qualify. [00:12:18] Sarah: It's funny. I was actually on Instagram the last week, I think. And there's this guy, he has a very large account and I can't remember his name. And he's very big on investing in real estate. And he said, "guys, like, I just need some help. I like I'm going through this whole process and you jumped through 10, 000 hoops." and he said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that. I still talk to investors and property managers and they don't know. [00:13:02] They're like, "I'm just too conventional. That's like what you do. That's like the normal thing that we're all trained and used to doing." So just knowing that there are other options that don't require all of these crazy hoops to jump through and all of this documentation and lots of red tape and underwriting. [00:13:22] It's not that it's eliminated. It's just that it's a lot easier of a process and especially if you're a savvy investor that takes a loss on your taxes, just because your tax return shows a loss, it doesn't actually mean that you're losing money, right? So there's a big difference there. So that plays a big part too. [00:13:43] Matthew: Yeah, there are investors. Sorry. I didn't mean to jump in there, but there are definitely investors that lean on that from a documentation standpoint. Right? They've been down this road. They have multiple properties and more properties, you have the more documentation you need to provide to try and qualify for those conventional loans and it just becomes more and more challenging. [00:14:00] And, even more so if you have a loan officer on the front end of that's trying to originate a loan, that isn't really versed in investment properties and doesn't know how to underwrite the tax returns, they can get in trouble. They look, "oh, I got good credit. I've got down payments." But when you try and pull together tax returns and the income from multiple properties and business losses and this and that, it becomes very complex. And it's honestly, a lot of loan officers don't even know how to look at that correctly. And so they just throw the file up. It goes to underwriting. And then 2 weeks later, they've got a problem. But I just closed a deal actually yesterday and it was ended up going non QM short term rental. And the gentleman is great credit owns his own businesses, owns multiple properties and schools here, but the documentation, because he owns, like, 8 companies and probably 7 or 8 rental properties, and he had a partner in this particular property that, It became so complicated with trying to pull some of that stuff together and also with the partner who wasn't necessarily as strong as him where it just made sense for us to go short term rental and move on. [00:15:07] And that's what we did. So we just made it easy. He was happy that he didn't have to continue to jump through all those hoops. And we were able to get the property done and close in about two and a half weeks.  [00:15:17] Jason: You said it made sense to go short term rental. You meant to go non QM. Is that what you meant? [00:15:21] Matthew: To go non QM. Yeah. We went short term rental income, which is non QM to qualify the income on the property. This happens to be a short term rental down on the Comal River and it's got great income. It just he had a private money loan on it when he purchased it needed to refinance the note was coming due and he just has a very complex financial situation. [00:15:43] And he got involved with a partner on this property that also created some challenges with that particular situation and just made it a lot easier to use him and go non QM short term rental income only and just get it done.  [00:15:54] Jason: So, would that be a DSCR loan going on the short term rental income? [00:15:59] Or is that different?  [00:15:59] Matthew: Yes, it is technically a DSCR loan, which means debt service coverage ratio. And this is what we utilize with your property as well, by the way. we're looking at either long term rents.  [00:16:10] Jason: We should tell that story, by the way, everyone listening has no clue. [00:16:13] Sarah: I know, right?  [00:16:14] Jason: Why don't we have Sarah explain like why we went this route, how we ended up talking with Matt and like how this all worked out.  [00:16:21] Sarah: Okay, let's do that. So, Jason, oddly proudly, he's like, "I've never owned a rental property and I've never managed a rental property. And I do this now." And I said, "this is nothing to be proud of. Like you're 46, you should own things. You should have assets." So like I, on the other hand, like I had, in my twenties, I started investing in real estate. So, Jason and I for a while have been saying like, "when are we going to get one together?" [00:16:48] Because we didn't have one yet and he never had one.  [00:16:51] Then also our circumstances in life have changed a little bit. And we thought " we need an additional property at this point." And we were in a unique situation where right now in Austin, I'll just start by saying long term rental is hard to make it make sense financially. [00:17:10] You're probably not going to cashflow.  [00:17:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:13] Sarah: Not right now. Anyway, it's just, it's really hard because prices are high. And interest rates are also high. This is where we are. So we couldn't have possibly done a long term rental anyway, because we needed the property to have some personal use on it. [00:17:28] And we decided, "Hey, let's also use it for some of our DoorGrow events." Because every time that we do an event, We pay somebody else.  [00:17:37] So let's pay ourselves through that. So for that reason, it only can really be used as a short term rental property. So we decided, "Hey, there's these kind of three components." [00:17:48] And I'm really big on asset protection, meaning I need the property to be owned and deeded and financed in an LLC. So originally I was working with another agent. We've worked with him before on our primary home. He's a really great agent. I had asked him about, "can we fund it in the name of an LLC?" [00:18:09] And he said, "no you can't do that. It doesn't really work that way." And it seemed like he was just trying to talk us out of it. I even talked with that he typically uses and that we used on our, Home that we live in. And he said, "Oh no, yeah, we don't do properties in the LLC. It'll be in your name. And then after closing, we could do a quick claim and then like change the deed and put the deed in the LLC name." And I said, "okay, what about the mortgage?" And he said, "no. The mortgage stays in your name." And I said, "I'm out." Like that is where I'm out. You're piercing the veil. [00:18:44] All of my personal assets would now be exposed and on the line. And that completely defeats the purpose of having an LLC. And he was like, yeah, we just don't do that. I really don't think that's going to be a problem. So I said, "okay, do you know anybody now he's been in this business for like 20 or 30 years?" [00:19:02] "Do you know anybody that can do that?" And he said, "Oh, not really." So that was time to start looking for somebody else because I know that it can be done. I've done it in Pennsylvania. So there's no way that Texas can't do this. Texas is far ahead of Pennsylvania in a lot of different ways.  [00:19:19] Jason: So we found another agent. [00:19:20] Sarah: So we found another agent who then referred us to Matt and he said, "Hey, I know a guy. He's really great. And I'm pretty sure he can do what you need." So I said, "great. What's his information?" I had a conversation with Matt and he's like, "Oh, well, yeah, we can do that." And I said, "so you can put the loan in the LLC. Not my name, the LLC. He said yeah, we can do that." Like it was easy. So it can be done. Sometimes you just have to look around a little bit. So that was how our deal was structured. So we went non QM and we ended up doing, since it is a short term rental, we went DSCR so that the rents would cover essentially your PITI. [00:20:00] And this is how we made our deal work. So we closed PITI. [00:20:06] Jason: PITI for the listeners is...  [00:20:07] Sarah: principal interest taxes insurance. [00:20:11] Matthew: Yeah, so, I know that was how our conversation started was, " can we do this in the LLC?" And we walked through that and the pros and cons a little bit, I think, and that's one thing that conventional QM loans don't really not really, they don't allow that. You cannot fund in an LLC. [00:20:25] Now, what happens is a lot of people like you were advised, "hey, fund it in your name, slip it to the LLC later." That can cause some problems because Fannie Mae does have due on sale clauses in their loan documents. So, technically, if there's an ownership change, that note can be called due. Typically, you can just flip it back into your name and stop that process, but it becomes a cat and mouse game back and forth if you have a servicer that's trying to, exercise that for some reason, it doesn't happen very often. It's not a very high risk, but it's definitely something you need to be aware of. On the non QM side, the lenders want these, or most of them prefer them to be funded into LLCs because non QM as a whole is considered business purpose lending. [00:21:11] It falls outside of the consumer protection, finance protection Bureau oversight. So, it's considered or classified more of like a commercial loan. And so most of them require, or want you to fund into an LLC. There are some that will do them in their personal names. It's interesting. They follow more of a conventional loan program, which I'm not really sure I understand, because they issue a closing disclosure and they look at loan estimates, even though it's considered a non loan. So they just handle a little bit differently. Those companies will allow you to do it in your name and some of them are doing a lot of those companies are also doing primary residences under a non QM basis. So bank statement products for somebody who may be self employed also trying to buy a primary residence. That's where I see it more. Most of the the LLC stuff is for investors and those lenders are going to. Really prefer or require it to be in an LLC. [00:22:07] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. So what should investors know in order to make the decision as to which way they should go? Like, how do you make the deciding factor? Like, what are some of the things that kind of weigh into this?  [00:22:20] Matthew: Yeah, I think really it's a conversation initially of can they qualify for a conventional loan? Do they understand what non QM loans have to offer? A lot of investors aren't familiar with the details of non QM loans, how they work, how they can help them. So it's really an education conversation of, what options we may have available. Right? I would always start with the conventional loans typically and, see if we can qualify. If you can go that route and you're putting 25 percent down you're going to get a little bit better interest rates. And then you don't have some of the other key factors that come with non QM loans. So most non QM loans do have some sort of prepayment penalty because they're selling these to a secondary hedge fund investor that wants a minimum return. So, in most cases, you're going to have a prepayment penalty in a conventional loan. Stay out of point. A QM loan legally cannot have a prepayment penalty. [00:23:14] So there's a big difference there. But as far as qualifying them, it's a really, like I said, an education and a conversation about what their profile looks like. Right? They self employed. Do they own multiple properties? Are they showing losses or profits on those properties? And then, really documenting that, 9 times out of 10, what I'm told on a verbal conversation doesn't match what I get on the documentation that way. [00:23:38] "Oh, my business makes this," but they're talking about gross revenue, not net income. They're talking about gross rent amounts, not the net income they're showing on their tax returns. So it needs to go the next level. But that initial conversation may determine quite quickly that, hey, we need to go non for what reason or, because they want to fund it in an LLC, because the property is really a short term rental, but it doesn't but they don't have any history of short term rental management. [00:24:07] And let's talk just a little bit about, how you look at the short term rental. I know that's what we were talking a little bit about before we talked about your loan, right? So there's 2 ways to look at that short term rental and it's either from well, the rental income short term or long term can either come from an appraiser. [00:24:23] Or from a software program that some lenders are now using. So a lot of lenders will lean on a typical, appraisal to an appraiser to come up with whatever that market rent may be. And like, like, you said, it's difficult to cash flow properties in Austin or in Texas. On long term rents simply because the property taxes have escalated and now with higher interest rates. [00:24:48] So a lot of times, the short term rental is really from a lending perspective an easier way to qualify the property for 1. But we do have the ability to look at it from two different perspectives and this is what we utilized on your loan. So I'll just talk about a little bit. So I have a couple lenders that will look at the short term rental from a software perspective. [00:25:05] Right? So in your case. When we had the discussion, it was really a matter of, yeah, "I really want to put 20 percent down. I don't want to put additional money down. That would be more important to me than a little bit higher interest rate. Right?" And so, when we look at different lenders that may be leaning on an appraisal. [00:25:21] I don't know what that number is for 2 weeks and me personally I feel like appraisers, especially in the short term rental market. Are a little bit lazy and sometimes they just don't have the data. So what happens is I submitted to the lender based on an 80 percent loan to value. And then all of a sudden, my short term rental income comes back low or lower than what we may have expected. [00:25:42] And now that's requiring you to put an additional 5 percent down to meet their guidelines of a debt service coverage ratio less than one or go no ratio, right? We still have an option, but the option is going to require you to put a little bit more money down. And so. Again, we have two ways to look at it either an appraisals given us that number or with some investors. [00:26:00] And this is why I like working with some of those in that case. Like I said, your most important factor is 20 percent down. so I took it to a lender that gave me that short term rental number within 48 hours. They ran it through their system. They gave it to me immediately and said, "this is where we should be." As soon as we submitted the loan to underwriting within 2 days, we had an approval and this was confirmed short term rental amount. We didn't have to wait on the appraiser and it didn't matter what the appraiser's opinion was. They already confirmed what we were going to use, which confirmed that I could get your loan approved with just 20 percent down. So, that's a preferred method in a lot of ways, especially if we're trying to keep that 20 percent down number. [00:26:38] If we have somebody that's putting 25-30 percent down, then it's. A little bit less relevant and we can, decide what option might be best for them at that point.  [00:26:46] Jason: Got it. So why should property managers who are constantly wanting to do more deals, help more investors, why should they have somebody like Matt in their back pocket? [00:26:57] Sarah: Oh, that's such a good question. Well, I want to think of it kind of twofold. One, I feel like if you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate. Real estate agents just by having access to the MLS. No, that's not where all deals come from. I know that, but just by having access to the MLS and the connections that you have as a real estate agent and property manager, there's no chance that you don't come across amazing deals all the time. [00:27:23] There's no chance. So capitalize on that.  [00:27:26] You should also be an investor yourself. It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves. Yeah. So that's number one. But number two is if you're like, "well, I like, I don't know, I'm unsure, or maybe I have one property or two properties and I don't know if I'm ready to continue to build a portfolio." [00:27:46] Or you're like, "Hey, I have X many properties and I'm happy right here. I don't want any more." I don't know why, but maybe you are. So if that's the case and you have investor clients that very likely would love to get into more deals themselves. And it would be great for you because now if you have an investor and they manage five doors, but that same investor can now manage 10, 20, 38. [00:28:11] That's fantastic because now your business is growing. So if you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win because yes, the savvy investors, they're always looking for more deals. Jason's hooked now. He said to me, we closed and he was like, "how do we do another one? like, how do we do another one?" He's like, "how fast can we do another one? Like Sarah, is it possible if we do like one property a year," right? And he did. Yeah, he did. There's a lot of investors like that because once you get it. Once you really get to see all of the benefits and just how freaking beautiful it is to be a real estate investor and make money and get all of the tax benefits that you don't get in almost any other sector. [00:28:54] It's amazing. So why would you not want more of that? So if you're a property manager, it would make so much sense for you to just be able to educate your investor clients. "Hey, have you ever thought of picking up more properties?" The answer probably is going to be "yes," especially if you're doing a great job for them as a property manager. [00:29:14] Because that's a tricky part is, "well, I could buy a bunch of properties, but who's going to manage them?" If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money. [00:29:30] So if you want to grow your portfolio by adding additional deals to the clients that you already have. It's like so simple, right? Why would we not do that? So having options. that not everybody knows about. It's fantastic.  [00:29:47] Jason: So in short, this just gives them a lot more options to work with because investors want to invest, and they may think, "Oh, well, I've only got this much down or I can only do a conventional, I can only do it this way. I need to meet certain criteria" or "I've just declared all these losses."  [00:30:04] Sarah: "Like I have too much debt." Maybe their like debt to income is a little maxed out because we're, keeping up with the Joneses. This is so normal, right? So that and Matt's laughing. He sees it all the time. [00:30:15] I bet he's like, "Oh, we went a little too high on that one." [00:30:18] there's good debt and bad debt though as well, right?  [00:30:21] Correct. However, if you own five properties or six properties or seven properties, every additional property that you have that is leveraged, meaning that you have a mortgage on it, that's counting against you and your debt to income ratio. [00:30:35] Jason: Right. So it gets harder and harder using conventional to get into more property.  [00:30:40] Sarah: Unless you're the Fed and you can just print money.  [00:30:42] Jason: Well, I don't know if they're buying  [00:30:44] Matthew: a lot of money.  [00:30:44] But you bring up a good point and just to clarify when we do a debt service coverage ratio program, I'm not looking at any of your debt. [00:30:52] I'm not looking at a debt ratio calculation at all. And if you own multiple properties, I'm not even looking at any of those other properties for any sort of rent, income, verification, mortgage, anything. This one is a business, right? Correct. It's it. Well, it's just debt service coverage on that subject property, right? [00:31:10] Does the rent cover the note? And do we have enough money for down payment and reserves on that property alone? We don't look at reserves for those additional properties like you would a conventional. So you got five properties. I don't care about reserves on those. I'm only looking at the subject property. [00:31:24] So, yes, debt to income is a big factor and I think, if we're talking to property management companies, it's really just an education or a knowledge of what potentially could be out there. Right? Like you said, they have opportunities to buy all the time. I would think that the savvy property manager is going to scoop those up if they can, but are they aware of these programs? [00:31:44] Or do they think that? "Oh, my debt to income is too high or I have losses on my tax returns that I'm going to have trouble qualifying." And then you also have your network of investors that you manage those properties for that potentially are looking for additional doors, but they're not aware of these programs in some cases. [00:32:00] So, yeah, it's just a matter of, I think, education and just getting the information out there. So that some of these people know what options are available.  [00:32:09] Jason: Well, it sounds like it shifts the conversation from, "can we?" Yeah. Maybe it's a no, in their thought, in their mind to "how can we?" Like, there's other creative ways that things could be done instead of saying, "Oh, it's gotta be this one way we've always done it. That's the only way." So, what about for long term rentals? Which like some of the investors listening and a lot of our clients listening may not do a short term.  [00:32:32] Sarah: You can still do a non QM on a long term, especially in Austin. Now, other markets, you might find a cashflow. Like I have a cashflow property in Pennsylvania. [00:32:40] It's a rare gem guys, but in Austin, it's hard to get something to cashflow, especially right now.  [00:32:47] Matthew: Okay, so there's two ways to look at it again. There's, or I guess, multiple ways to look at it. Not just two, but bank statements if I'm looking at it. So, if they're self employed, and they have a business that we can lean on the bank statements, right? [00:32:59] That's my income qualifier and no longer care about that negative potential cash flow on the property in the rent. Right? So that's one way. If I'm doing debt service coverage and I'm looking at long term rental, I have a client that wants to long term rented. They're not going to be comfortable stating short term rental on the application. [00:33:17] They really have no desire to do that. Then I have to look at the short term rent. Now, what that's typically going to end up, at least in Austin, what's typically going to end up happening is that property is going to have a problem cash flowing at 20 percent down or 80 percent equity. Right? So what happens is it now pushes us to. [00:33:34] A bigger down payment, a larger down payment, 25 percent 30%. And then we have the options with those lower loan values to do either no ratio or lower debt coverage ratio loan programs. Right? So. If it falls below 100%, meaning 100 percent rent coverage with PITI coverage which principal interest taxes, insurance and HOA fees all come into that play. But let's just say it's a little bit short. I've got a PITI of 2000 dollars of my rent's 1800. well, the lender is going to do one or two things. Are you going to say, "well, we need more down to get that to 100%." Or "we're going to reclassify it as a higher risk and we'll do, some of them will go down to 75 percent debt coverage, but it's a little bit higher rate." [00:34:18] Or "we have to go to a little bit larger down payment and go no ratio, right?" No ratio means we just eliminate that altogether. And it's typically 30 percent down. So, we have options to look at but it is definitely a little bit harder if we're looking at long term rents simply because it's harder to cash flows at 20%, unless again, unless we have larger down payments or larger equity positions, for refinances to soak. [00:34:42] A lot of these let's talk about that too, you have some of your property management clients that may want to purchase more properties where they could extract equity out of these homes to use to purchase more property. So there's a lot of the refinance going on with those properties to under a non QM basis, because they again, they can't qualify for a full doc for whatever reasons. [00:35:03] Right? But there are options to pull cash out under a non QM basis and utilize those funds to reinvest.  [00:35:09] Jason: Got it. So say they've got five, 10 properties, it's getting really difficult for them to qualify for a QM loan. They could maybe pull some equity out of their existing properties, do like a cash out refi, and then use that money to fund a bigger down payment to do a non QM scenario. [00:35:28] Matthew: Absolutely. Absolutely. The challenge right now in the market with refinances in general is a lot of these people have really good rates on those properties. And so they don't necessarily want to refinance and lose that low rate understandably. Right? So. In other states, you have a the ability to do HELOCs or he loans, which are second liens, Texas, it's a little bit limited. [00:35:47] There's not as many products available, especially on the investment side. There are ways to extract some of that equity and reposition it to be reinvested in other investment opportunities. And I will say that we do have the ability to do the same type of loans on small commercial properties. [00:36:04] Like, up to I've got one lender that kind of specializes in that small commercial that goes up to 24 units. So, between 5 and 24 unit apartment buildings, we're also looking at a non QM type debt service coverage loan, which is what commercial loans look at in general anyway. Commercial loans are based on cash flow, right? [00:36:23] It's all debt service coverage based on that. But in that small apartment complex arena, you've got a lot of these kind of more residential lenders that are focusing and specializing in it. Because it's a piece of the market that's left out, right? Your commercial lenders don't want to touch something that's a few 100, 000 dollars. They have minimums of 5Million dollars, 3Million dollars. And so you have these smaller properties that are great investments in some cases that also have challenges getting loans, not because of the property, but because of the size of the loan.  [00:36:55] Jason: It's just not big enough for him. [00:36:56] So Matt what areas do you cover personally? And then how do people find somebody like you, how did they find somebody like you? Like, this was a challenge we had to ask around what do people look for to find somebody that can help them with some more creative options?  [00:37:11] Matthew: That's a good question. I wish more people would know how to find me. So maybe you can help me with that. But yeah, it's just, it's interesting. There's a lot of loan officers that just don't, I guess maybe they're scared of the non QM space. They don't understand it. They're scared of change, so to speak, and so they just go, "I've never done that. And I don't know anything about it and they don't want to learn about it." it's the fastest growing segment of the market right now. Fannie Mae is pushing a lot of the paper towards non QM from a risk perspective. They want to get away from it. They're making investment rates in terms unattractive, so to speak, so they're offloading it that way. But, I think it's really through the real estate agents is probably the best way to get in touch with somebody like me, if they're familiar with it. But what's interesting is even your agent from McLean that I work a lot with Brett. [00:38:00] He wasn't 100 percent versed in these products either. So. Fortunately, he got me, right?  [00:38:05] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you, Brett.  [00:38:07] Matthew: But, yeah, as far as if you have somebody that's questions, I'm always available to potentially educate people in regards to these programs. As far as where I do business, I'm legally licensed in Texas and Arizona, meaning national mortgage licensing, which is the, the CFPB license. [00:38:22] Now, with non QM loans about 35 states don't require you to have a license within that state. So I can do non QM debt service coverage all these type of loans that we talked about in about 34 different states. Just with my national license and because they consider a business purpose use, it's classified as a commercial loan in those states, and they don't have these overbearing laws like California does or Nevada. So there are some states that it's difficult unless you want to jump through a bunch of hoops to do it. And unless there's enough volume, there hasn't made sense for me to do it. [00:38:55] I just focus on the ones that I can, which is a big piece of the country and we can help folks in those 30 some states, 34 states, whatever it is.  [00:39:03] Jason: So there's maybe 15, 16 states that you can't cover.  [00:39:06] Matthew: It's the New York the Pacific Northwest and California, most of the middle of the country around Texas we can do. [00:39:14] I know you, you referred me to somebody in Utah the other day, they happen to be a state that requires licensing, but their licensing is pretty reasonable. So, if there was an opportunity or a reason, for some volume to come out of there, I could get licensed fairly quickly. [00:39:28] And some of these states, because I already hold a national license within them. I passed the test for that, which means you just have to take the state piece of that exam to then get licensed. Be able to do loans there, which is fairly simple. And as long as you're not in New York or California or somebody that has these crazy laws,  [00:39:44] Sarah: What's to invest there anyway, come on, like squatters and all this, like? [00:39:48] Matthew: I know, right? [00:39:49] I don't know how everybody does loans in New York. I hear it takes 90 days to close a loan.  [00:39:54] Jason: There's plenty of investors in those markets. I'm sure people listening. All right. Cool. Well, Matt, it's been great having you here on the DoorGrow show. Appreciate you being our guest. How can people find you or get in touch with you? [00:40:06] If they're wanting to reach out and find out if they're one of those 34 states.  [00:40:10] Matthew: Well, my number if you want my phone number is 512 415 6142. You can Google Nexa my name. I think if you Google my name and Nexa mortgage that come up quite a bit on the Google nexahomelending.Com is my personal website. [00:40:27] That's probably the two best ways to reach out to me just text or email and I'm more than happy to help you in any way that I can.  [00:40:34] Jason: Perfect. Well, it sounds like this is at least a key or just a tool or an idea that every property manager listening should probably have in their back pocket. [00:40:44] You should have some sort of connection to a more creative lender than you may have currently. And so, connect with Matt or maybe, I don't know, start Googling non QM lenders in your market. I don't know, but find somebody or ask around to some real estate agents, but see if you can get somebody that can help with getting some of these deals because investors, they have money, they have equity and, but they're not doing deals and they want to probably do more deals and they just need somebody creative enough to help them find some solutions or interesting ways to make it happen. [00:41:13] So, all right. Well, again, Matt, thanks for being on the show. Appreciate you.  [00:41:17] Matthew: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.  [00:41:19] Jason: All right. Well, everybody, if you are interested in growing your business, your property management business, reach out to us, you can check us out at doorgrow.Com. And until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:41:30] Matthew: Great. Thank you. Talk to you guys soon. Bye. [00:41:32] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:41:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you have been struggling to grow your property management business, you might have been prioritizing the wrong things… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how having the right priorities and getting support helps with business growth. You'll Learn [01:30] Are you prioritizing the right things? [08:30] Why you CAN'T do everything yourself [20:20] How prioritizing safety might hinder growth [27:30] Why you should be willing to take risks [30:50] Prioritize results and get those results Tweetables “You may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order.” “I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because ‘we want it done right' means ‘done according to my set of values.'” “Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.” “You can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:00:06] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. Like, pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:56] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:25] I did the intro right this time I think. I didn't screw it up. We could just have it prerecorded, people. You never know what you're going to get. Okay. So I was thinking about what we could talk about this morning and I've been doing some reflection and some study and the topic that just keeps coming up in my mind is prioritization and priorities. [00:01:44] In fact, I'll probably talk a little bit about that and do an exercise with some of the cool people that are coming to DoorGrowLive. Cause I really think if you're not experiencing growth and you're not having the success that you want, you're not getting the results that you want in business and life, then it's pretty simple. It's just that your priorities are out of alignment with you getting the results that you want. And you may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order. And so you're prioritizing something over the thing that if you prioritize would give you the results that you actually want in your life. [00:02:20] And so I was thinking about this question and I threw it out to Sarah while she's getting ready this morning. And I said, "what are people prioritizing over growth?" Because the people that come into our program, the work with us, they get great results. They are different. They're prioritizing growth over certain other things. [00:02:39] And so people that don't work with us, why do they not spend money on coaching? Why don't they invest in coaching? And so why don't we go to Sarah and find out, what do you think? Why are people not spending money on coaching? Like where entrepreneurs at in their journey that mentally that's preventing them from spending money on a coach, moving the business forward or working towards growth? [00:03:05] Sarah: Well, I think there's a few reasons that this could be the case. And one might be that people don't even know what a coach would do, right? Like, "how would a coach help me?" And some people might not even be aware that that's an option.  [00:03:22] Jason: Got it.  [00:03:22] Sarah: I wasn't for a very, very long time. Even when I was running my business, I didn't know, "Hey, there's people that will help you." [00:03:30] Jason: Okay. That's fair enough. So what cracked your mind open to the idea or possibility of coaching?  [00:03:38] Sarah: Well, honestly, it was you. You're really big on coaching. I had never had a coach in my life. Ever. And when you and I had moved in together, you are so big on coaching and you do a variety of different types and styles of working with coaches. [00:04:00] And some of it is mastermind style and some of it is one on one and some of it is event type. And I realized, "wow, this is really great." Like, I just did not make that connection and realization that there are people who genuinely want to help other people succeed in life and in business.  [00:04:21] Jason: So I want to clarify what you're saying. [00:04:26] Clarify something. Some people listening will hear, "Oh, Jason's into coaching. Yeah, we know he coaches people. That's what he does. It's what he's trying to sell." And what you're saying is you saw me getting coached.  [00:04:38] Sarah: Oh yes, working with coaches.  [00:04:39] Jason: Working with coaches, joining masterminds. Like I'm the student.  [00:04:43] Sarah: I knew what you did when obviously when I met you.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:46] Sarah: But I also saw you embody that and you work with a lot of coaches yourself. And in seeing you and the business, our business, work with coaches, that was something I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. That helps a lot." Because coaches, especially when you work with a coach that's been there, done that... because there's a lot of coaches that they don't really know. They're like, "well, this was a great theory." But when you work with a coach that has. done the thing and gotten the result and had that experience and now they can talk about it and they can share their experience and they can share their knowledge and they can say, "Hey, I tried this and it didn't work. So avoid this," and "Hey, this got me in some hot water, so definitely don't do that," And, "this was really successful and here's how I did it and here's why I did it this way. And I kept testing and refining." And then they can share that knowledge with you. And when I started experiencing that in DoorGrow, With the coaches that we worked with, that was something that I was like, "Oh, well, that would have been nice to know." [00:05:52] Jason: And Sarah learns super fast. Like I've always been super impressed by how quick you adopt new information or new ideas. Like most people I think it takes a while for people to absorb certain things, but some things you're just like, "yeah." And you're like, "let's do coaching." [00:06:05] And we've tried lots of different coaches out together. Like some not good.  [00:06:09] Sarah: Some are not good.  [00:06:10] Jason: Right. It's like a...  [00:06:12] Sarah: colossal waste of money.  [00:06:14] Jason: Some really good.  [00:06:15] Sarah: Some really good.  [00:06:16] Jason: Some we weren't ready for. We just like didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth to work with them.  [00:06:21] Sarah: Mm hmm.  [00:06:22] Jason: We just had so much going on. [00:06:23] Like we took on too much. Maybe we had too many coaches at a time, something like this. Right. Even right now, like I'm onboarding and I'm coaching and training two new sales team members, plus my son in learning setting and sales. But I went and got outside help. So I have a coach right now that's coaching me and them. [00:06:45] And then I'm spending each day coaching them, but each week we're meeting with a coach and he's an expert in sales and he's helping us go to another level and work on scripts and work on our communication, work on language. And that's been really helpful. I'm always leveling up my skills. [00:06:59] And I think it's important to never get comfortable. And I think for me, I just try to imagine like if I didn't have coaches or mentors and I'm every day trying to like coach people and sell coaching to me, that would feel like a gross lack of integrity. Feels like I'd be grossly out of alignment, and a lot of the coaches that we have, I found them through coaching programs that we were in with them. Right. And so I know that they believe in coaching and they're in integrity. And I know that they're in the areas, at least that I am seeking help in, they are ahead of me in that game. And and so I can trust them. [00:07:39] There's evidence they can help get results and they've given some value already. And so I'm like, "okay, I should, we should work with them." And I think that's one of the challenges. And so everybody out there, if you're like, " why am I not spending money on coaching or why don't I have a coach?" [00:07:52] I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think just as a side note, if you're going to get a coach, don't work with a coach that doesn't have a coach , right? If they went through one program one time, they're like, "I went through this coaching program and got a certificate one time." Then do they really believe in coaching? [00:08:10] No. They just believed in getting the appearance of being a good coach and they're not actually a coachable person. I believe in order to be able to coach others, you have to also be coachable and being able be able to learn. I learned a massive amount just by coaching, coaching clients and supporting them. [00:08:29] And so let's get into what people maybe are prioritizing instead of growth. If they're not growing. Because some people are listening to this and they're like, "well, I've been stuck at the same number of doors I've been at for like two, three years." So what priority might be off or what are they prioritizing that's different? [00:08:45] What might be off? What are some of the things they're prioritizing?  [00:08:48] Sarah: I think one of the big things is this need to control everything. And I understand because I am a control freak. I get it. And for a long, long time, I had always said, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." [00:09:08] So, why would I ask somebody else to do this thing, and then I'm just going to have to go check and see if they did it the right way? And "oh, they made a mistake, so now I have to... it's just easier and faster for me to just go and do it myself!" Right? Instead of teaching somebody or training somebody or just asking them to do it, but then really secretly I'm going to go and check and see if they actually did it. [00:09:28] So delegation for me was very hard for a very long time. Because I am very detail oriented, and very OCD, and very organized, and I'm very particular in how things get done. So, I believe there's a right way, and a wrong way to do just about every task that there is.  [00:09:49] Jason: Yeah, that's very, very INTJ thinking of you. [00:09:53] But I'm not incorrect. Most of the time, you're not, right? And so, if you want it done right, you do it yourself. Is that true? Sometimes, right? Like there's a lot of situations where that's true. The challenge is: could it be possible that if somebody else did it, it could be done better than you? [00:10:12] Right. That could be true too. And so I think getting a coach is you start to recognize where you might have gaps and the ultimate evidence is our results. If we're not getting the results that we want, then maybe we're not the person that should be doing that thing. Because we're not getting the results and we're doing it. [00:10:29] So it's us, right? But yeah, I think that's a belief that a lot of people have in the beginning. "I want it done right." And I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because "we want it done right" means "done according to my set of values." There's lots of different ways to do something and the outcome could be similar or could work or could be positive, but we have certain values that we want it done in a certain way to be the right way. [00:10:54] The right way. Yes. And INTJs very much feel there's a right way and a wrong way for everything. The challenge is a lot of times, if we're super rigid and believing we always have the right way, we can't see around corners. There's certain personality types, though, that can see a lot more opportunity and a lot more variety of options. [00:11:13] And they usually can crack those strong J's brains open, that are judging, to some new ideas and new possibilities. And eventually they'll adopt those, right? And so that's, I think where we have a nice balance in our relationship is you're usually right. A lot of things and very strategic brain and can figure stuff out and you're like, something's off here. [00:11:35] You're very intuitive. And and usually right when you're like, "something's not right here." And then also, I'm very good at seeing alternatives, other possibilities, and exposing you to some other options or some other ideas.  [00:11:48] Sarah: Yes. And you're also very good at human emotions.  [00:11:52] Jason: Oh. [00:11:52] Sarah: I'm not good at human emotion. [00:11:54] Jason: Right.  [00:11:55] Sarah: You're like, "well, you can't do that because it'll make people feel like this." And I'm like, "so?" [00:12:01] Jason: Yeah, yeah, this is a constant frustration. You're like, "why won't people just do what I told them to do when I just tell them one time in a very succinct way, exactly what I want?  [00:12:11] Sarah: Right? Like I have all the answers, just listen and then do what I tell you to do! That's it. Like, it's so easy. I feel like life would be so much easier if you just listen. [00:12:22] Jason: And so the one advantage, one of my maybe few advantages over you cognitively maybe is the idea that I can empathize a bit more with other people and I can figure out what would it take to get this installed into their brain? [00:12:38] What would make this digestible for them? What would make this palatable? What would make them able to adopt or absorb this idea or to remember this idea or for this to work? And you're like, "just tell them!" Because I can just tell you and you get it. And you'll get annoyed if I start to explain and use analogy. [00:12:53] Sarah: I got it, I got it.  [00:12:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Sarah: Give me the thing that I need.  [00:12:56] Jason: Those things are very effective. I got it. Other people.  [00:12:58] Sarah: And now I'm going to go and do it. That's how I work.  [00:13:01] I think other people work like that too, but sometimes they don't and it's crazy to me! I don't... crazy!  [00:13:07] Jason: So I think one of the things that people prioritize over growth sometimes is that self struggle. Like there's people that value doing it themselves. [00:13:17] Like even as a little kid, my daughter, Madi, I would try to tie her shoelaces and she didn't even know how to do it! And she would say, "no, I do it! I do it!"  [00:13:25] Like she wouldn't let me do it.  [00:13:26] Sarah: Hey Madi.  [00:13:27] Jason: Madi edits our podcast, so she'll see this. She wanted to do it. And I'd be like, "okay." [00:13:32] And she's just sitting there struggling. But she was determined and eventually she figured it out and eventually she might be frustrated enough to allow me to help her. Right? And sometimes we have to allow people to struggle, but a lot of times we're self struggling and it's self imposed and we're not having success in our business or success in growth or adding doors or making more money or retaining clients or whatever it might be. And we're so stuck on this idea of self struggle, which is DIY, right? "I'm going to do it myself." and I've been this guy. I'll watch YouTube videos. I'll read books. I will figure it all out on my own. [00:14:06] " I'm smart enough. I can do this." And what I want to say to everybody listening, that that's you. You're right. You're totally right. You are smart enough to figure everything out eventually, it's just going to take you probably a decade longer than somebody that goes and gets coaching or gets helped. And I've been that I've done that. [00:14:24] Jason: I've spent like a decade doing stupid stuff. I'm in my forties. I've spent at least a decade doing some things and struggling with some things before I got help with it. And the amount of time somebody that already has succeeded at this or knows what works can collapse for you in the experimentation, in the struggles, in the financial risks, in the time wasting is pretty significant, like dramatically significant. [00:14:48] I've had mentors... I have one mentor. I paid him three grand a month and it was the biggest expense ever. Like I signed up for this coach and I immediately was like in a short period of time was making 30 grand more a month. That's a pretty decent return. Right? And I would have been stupid to not have done that, but it was a calculated risk. [00:15:07] At the time I was in a dysfunctional marriage and my wife at the time cried when I told her I was spending three grand a month, and we've spent a lot more than three grand a month on some of our coaches and mentors.  [00:15:19] Sarah: At the time three grand was a lot and it was scary.  [00:15:21] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:15:22] That was my first dive into high ticket coach. Yes. Working with the coach.  [00:15:26] Sarah: Yes, and I think the other thing to point out too about working with someone else is that It's not always about, "well, I must be bootstrapped. I must do it myself. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it all. I don't need any help." [00:15:40] Sometimes it's not even that sometimes it's, you just think things are really good because we hear that sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes like, "Oh, things are pretty good in the business," but you don't know what you don't know.  [00:15:51] Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And you think, "well, if things keep going the way that they are right now, that's okay. Like, maybe it's not my dream situation, but I'm also not really hating my day to day. And I'm not in this massive struggle." So I'm like, "things are okay. So do I actually need help? And do I need to reach out and work with someone?" And a lot of times, even if you think things are pretty good, and " maybe I don't need help." And you're right. You maybe don't need help. Perhaps you just need help to see what else is possible for you. [00:16:31] Jason: And they may not need help. They may not need it. If you're smart and you have big goals and you want to move forward quicker, then maybe you would want it, right? You would desire it instead of feel like this needy energy, like, "Oh, I need this." I think that's sometimes what limits us is we don't want to feel like we need something. [00:16:48] We don't want to admit we need something because it's a gross energy to be needy or to need something. It almost feels victimy to some people. I think when we have goals and we know what we want and we see that other people can help us, it becomes a little bit more natural for us to be able to do that. [00:17:03] Sarah: And I also think, this is another gripe I have with our lovely education system, is that in school, you are taught, "do it on your own." [00:17:13] "Don't look at other people's. Don't cheat. Don't ask your neighbor." If you're stuck, you pretty much ask the teacher. Refer back to your lesson and figure it out. When you're taking a test, you can't go "hey Joe, I don't know what number 13 is. You know what number 13 is?" You're not allowed to do that.  [00:17:32] Yeah, like getting help is wrong.  [00:17:33] It's wrong, right! So just have it memorized and regurgitate it. So take the information in, memorize it, and vomit it back up on a piece of paper, and then I will give you a passing grade. In the middle of a test, are you able to raise your hand and say, "Hey teacher, I had a question. I'm stuck on this. I don't really understand this. Can you please help me arrive to the answer?" No! No, you cannot! So in school, they teach us the self reliance. And I do believe that that is a very positive thing in one way. And in another way, it hinders our growth. Because in business, you should rely on other people so that you can get better results and go farther faster.  [00:18:17] Jason: So I think also what school teaches us, the way school is set up is there's this one guru expert at the front of the room that we have to listen to all the time. [00:18:27] And so we learn to be reliant on the leader for all the answers. And sometimes the leader doesn't have them, right? Sometimes they don't know. Sometimes they have blind spots. Everybody's been a student when they've called their teacher out on something that was off or wrong, right? Or seen that happen, and they lose that credibility. And teachers just usually don't tolerate that very well. They don't like being seen as having flawed thinking. Having a wrong idea or being wrong. And so there's this sort of authoritarianism that's like involved in schools. It's like, trust the authority, trust the leader, be this blind, dumb beast and let them lead you around. And that's like the Bible and book of revelations talks about the mark of the beast and the hand and the forehead. And maybe it's just your thoughts and your labor just being controlled by outside unearned authority. And people should earn. their authority, right? I work with coaches because they've earned authority, not because they just told me like somebody like put a gun to my head or forced me or I was in a school system and they said I had to do it this way. [00:19:30] So I think the irony of self struggle or DIY is that A lot of you are frustrated and thinking "I've got to do everything myself," but then you are probably because of that energy that you are being and creating in the universe and just how you show up with other people, you probably are really triggered and really frustrated with all the people that you encounter that think they could do a better job themselves. [00:20:00] Because you have the same energy or problem as them, and so they trigger you. So if you're running, you're butting your head all the time with these DIY people in the industry, people that are trying to self manage their properties or people that are trying to micromanage really self manage through you to get you to do the work, it may be because you're carrying this belief of self struggle or doing it yourself. [00:20:22] So just something to chew on. So another challenge that I think why people don't spend money on coaching or what they're prioritizing maybe over growth is there might be prioritizing safety or ease or comfort. And so what do you have to say about that?  [00:20:38] Sarah: So you have to get uncomfortable if you want results. [00:20:42] If you want results that are different than what you're currently getting, you can't take the same actions you're taking now and expect to get different results. I think, isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:20:57] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. It stresses people out and makes you start to go crazy a little bit. That's a pretty painful. Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Now, everybody, as we age, we tend to move towards more and more comfort. [00:21:14] I saw a video the other day. I think it was Gary Brecka, this health guy. He said that after the age of 30, most people will never do another sprint again in their life.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Well, I don't want to sprint. If I'm sprinting, y'all better follow me because...  [00:21:27] Jason: right. That's what people are saying. Like, they're like, "yeah, I don't want to. That's uncomfortable. I don't want to be cold. I don't want to be too hot." Comfort is he like described as is what leads us towards death ultimately. We want to be comfortable. We don't go work out at the gym. We don't build muscle, which affects our cognitive functioning later in life. It makes our bones more brittle. We then have a broken bone and like like we're hospitalized till we die right in our later years if we don't do the right things And so we're always seeking comfort and ease, and when we're always seeking comfort and ease, we shift the weight towards others. We Become, what I would kind of phrase as a victim or a blamer. We're a victim. We blame other people. We're complaining about our circumstances constantly, right? [00:22:17] And instead of doing work or taking action or doing the things that are uncomfortable. And I think there's this stoic phrase that from, I don't know, one of the cool guys that is involved in stoicism or whatever, but the idea is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:22:34] And a lot of people, I think could go, "that's true." I've seen some people make some easy choices, choices towards comfort, choices towards ease and their life's pretty difficult because they've avoided doing the hard, uncomfortable things, having the hard, uncomfortable conversations with people they should have, doing work, working hard to get the outcomes and a life of greater ease and comfort, right? [00:22:55] And so I think if you prioritize ease and comfort over growth, what's going to happen?  [00:23:00] Sarah: Not much.  [00:23:01] Jason: Well, you're not going to grow, right? Because growth isn't necessarily about ease and comfort, right? And so, even in nature, if we take a fruit tree or a bush that produces some sort of, fruit, whatever, if we cut that, tree and trim it, it will then yield a bigger result. [00:23:19] And sometimes if it's overgrown, it can't even produce fruit very effectively because it's too busy feeding everything else, all the branches leaves. So trimming it allows it to produce more fruit. And we're similar in that we need some friction and some intentional discomfort in our life and action in order to produce or bear fruit, in order to get the things that we want in life. [00:23:42] Having uncomfortable conversations creates greater peace in our relationships. Being willing to take action in our business allows us to have more freedom, more revenue financially, and to be able to take care of our team and ourselves better. And so we can't be a victim and a blamer and complain about the market and complain about COVID and whatever your stupid excuses are, whoever's listening. [00:24:04] If you've got all your excuses why you're not growing, you can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. So which one would you rather choose? Right? And there's a lot of people that would rather choose their excuses because it allows them to not do anything. It allows them, "well, the market's tough, so I just might as well not do anything." [00:24:23] Like right now, real estate agents, some are like, "oh, real estate market's tough. Can't get deals." Right? And then there's people that are still closing a bunch of deals and making plenty of money. And so our beliefs and our mindset and how we prioritize things shifts things. And so are you prioritizing ease and comfort? [00:24:40] Sometimes it's not even about our own ease and comfort. Well, maybe it is. Sometimes people won't join a coaching program because their spouse doesn't want to spend the money or their business partner doesn't want the business to grow. We see that like they're an operator personality type. [00:24:54] They're not really focused on growth and they're like, "no, we have good, stable, residual income. Like why rock the boat? And I'm getting 50 percent of the revenue," or whatever I've seen. And they're like, "why change anything? Don't disrupt my comfort here." And the other person's like, "let's have more doors. Let's go crazy. I'm a visionary." [00:25:12] And the operator personality type's like, "yeah, but that would make my life worse. I don't need more money. I'm comfortable. Don't mess up my comfort." [00:25:21] And sometimes the business visionary, or if it's with your spouse, we're not having that uncomfortable conversation with them because it means rocking the boat. [00:25:31] It's uncomfortable. It means there might be a fight. It means you might get screamed at or get some angry emotion thrown at you. In some scenarios. And so I think it's really important to connect with deep down. Like, what do we really want? And what really should we be doing that we just know is right for us and being willing to step into that discomfort. I made some very uncomfortable choices in my day in order to get to where I'm at now. And sometimes it involved me having to look stupid in front of a group in a mastermind. Sometimes it involved me having to have uncomfortable conversations in relationships or even to end relationships. [00:26:10] That's super uncomfortable. In order to move forward and do what I felt I was called to do or what I felt deep down. What I think is also interesting is more people are a lot more comfortable with those that are willing to do uncomfortable things and speak uncomfortable words. [00:26:29] It makes everybody feel safer because they can trust that person. You can't trust people that are always focused on ease and comfort. I don't think they're as trustworthy of people because part of life in order to have integrity, in order to be honest, in order to work hard, in order to benefit the people that you have a fiduciary duty or responsibility to benefit like clients, you have to be willing to do the uncomfortable things. [00:26:53] Otherwise, you're shifting all the discomfort on to everybody else. "Everybody else around me has to be uncomfortable so I can have comfort." And that does not create great relationships, safety, or create a good client or business relationship in the longterm. So that's my soapbox about that. All right. [00:27:09] So, another reason people don't prioritize that they don't prioritize a growth is they might be looking at the short term. Maybe it's related to comfort. Maybe it's related to just, "I need to make sure I have cash now and they're giving up the longterm, maybe more cash later, maybe a bigger business later." Any thoughts about that?  [00:27:28] Sarah: This was your thing.  [00:27:29] Jason: I've run into this where I've talked to people and they're like, "well, I don't know. I don't have a lot of money right now," I think this is where you need to be willing to take a risk and bet on yourself. [00:27:37] Find a system that's proven. We've got plenty of case studies and results to show that our stuff works. It's all proven. It all works. What I find is the only real question people need to figure out is, are they willing to work? Do they trust themselves? Are they willing to bet on themselves? And a lot of people don't. [00:27:53] A lot of times we've struggled to even do the little things that we've told ourselves that we were going to do. And so we're out of integrity and we don't trust ourselves anymore. Like, "I'm going to work out at the gym tomorrow. I'm tired." Right. We've all done that. I've done that this week. Right. I did work out this morning though. But we've done that. We've all done that. And so it's the making these little movements of taking action towards our own integrity. Like I'm going to do this. And then I do it learning to trust ourselves again. And the one person you can control is you. And so when you have strong trust in yourself. [00:28:28] Very few things are supremely risky because you're betting on yourself, especially if you're getting support to become better. And so, it may be a cash investment now, but if you can see there's a system and you can see there's results, then maybe the risk is worth it. You should get an ROI if you do the right actions, if it's a proven system. So I think those are some of the things. So why don't we look at the reverse real quick, and then we'll wrap up.  [00:28:54] The reverse would be what are our clients like? What's different about our clients? What do they prioritize that made them decide to work with us? What are they prioritizing differently that said " why would I not spend money on coaching? I should totally do this."  [00:29:08] Sarah: Yeah. Well first I think they believe in their ability to do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Hmm.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Because if you don't believe in yourself, there's nothing that you're going to be able to do. No coach can help you. You've got to figure that out first. So they believe in themselves and they are also committed. [00:29:27] And I think that is something that sometimes people are lacking. It's, they're just lacking a actual true commitment.  [00:29:37] Jason: So commitment, I feel like is, maybe it's a choice, but I feel like it's also an outcome of choices, right? So what are they choosing to prioritize? You think that maybe makes them more committed? [00:29:49] Sarah: You're so cryptic today. You're like, " what are they choosing?" Like...  [00:29:52] Jason: well, I don't know, this is an interesting question I think to chew on.  [00:29:55] Sarah: What makes people more committed?  [00:29:56] Jason: Why are some people committed and some people are not? We're talking about priorities today, so I'm thinking, what are the priorities that they have that leads to being strongly committed? [00:30:05] Sarah: It's either you're in it or you're out. It's like a pool. You're either in the pool or you're out of the pool. Yeah. That's it. You, like, you're either wet or you're dry. That's it. You can't like, "well, I've got a toe in the pool." Like it doesn't work. It doesn't work in business. [00:30:19] And if you're finding that, "well, like I have my foot in the pool a little bit, I'm going to pull it out if I have to pull it out," that business will forever be hard. You have to either go all the way in or go all the way out. Because if you're in the middle, it is difficult and it will remain difficult. [00:30:37] Jason: Yeah. It's really painful to be in between.  [00:30:40] Sarah: So either jump in the pool or jump out of the pool. Neither one is wrong.  [00:30:45] You might go, "I hate this pool. I don't like it." Great. Then find a different pool.  [00:30:50] Jason: So in chewing on this, I think in looking at myself when I'm fully committed to something, it's because I have prioritized the outcome. [00:31:00] The outcome is clear enough and important enough and motivating enough that I will do whatever it takes to get that outcome. That's when I'm fully committed to something. I'll do whatever it takes to get that outcome because I know what I want. That's one of the things is our clients know what they want. [00:31:17] Like they know that there's outcomes that they want. You mentioned, they believe in their ability to do it, to learn, to take action. And so they are a hundred percent committed. If you're committed to something and you don't know how to do it, you'll figure it out because you'll do whatever it takes. [00:31:34] You will struggle. You'll do go through trial and error. You'll fail. You'll make mistakes. And I think that's another thing is our clients believe in their own themselves enough to be willing to make mistakes. Whereas some people prioritize not looking bad or not making mistakes. And so they don't take the action. [00:31:51] They were like, "I need it all to be perfect and to know how to do everything before I do it because I don't want to be embarrassed or look stupid." And so I think some of our most successful clients are willing to just try stuff. They're just willing to do it. They don't have this need that they have to look so smart or whatever. [00:32:07] And sometimes those people struggle the most, right? Sometimes they are super smart, but they have to look good and look smart all the time. So I think in short, our clients prioritize growth, they prioritize learning, they prioritize taking risks, experimenting, and this is why they are able to move forward. [00:32:26] So hopefully this episode helps you reassess some of your own priorities. Like if you're not getting the results, make a list of what your priorities are and figure out like "what am I prioritizing currently that's leading to my current results?" Because if you can't see that, then you can't change it. [00:32:40] And as soon as you can see it and you shift your priorities, "well, I need to start prioritizing this." Maybe you need to start prioritizing action. Maybe you need to start prioritizing your health more. Maybe you need to start prioritizing learning more. Whatever it is, in order to get the outcomes that you want. [00:32:55] But if you're not getting the outcomes you want, your priorities are off. And hopefully this is an opportunity and an invitation for you to introspectively figure that out. And I hope that was beneficial.  [00:33:05] If you're struggling with any of this and you want some help getting clarity figuring out your priorities figuring out what you need to do in order to grow, you have a blind spot, you can't see it... like you need some external perspective, we all have problems we can't see. [00:33:20] And if you're not getting the results, you lack some knowledge. You lack some insight. And so reach out to us at DoorGrow. One of our growth consultants can help you figure this out, help you figure out where you might be stuck, what you need to get to the next level. [00:33:33] And you probably have some garbage or junk beliefs that are preventing you from being able to take things to the next level. And once those are out of the way, you're golden, right? So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:33:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:34:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.  

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido interview Sarah Touzani, the founder of Waggle AI, an AI leadership skills coach. Sarah shares insights from her entrepreneurial journey, discussing how her past pottery hobby has influenced her focus and patience, which are crucial skills in her role as a founder. She explains how her transition from a traditional business school path to a senior role in a fast-growing startup, and eventually to founding Waggle AI, was driven by a desire to foster better managerial skills and workplace culture. Sarah talks about the early challenges and pivots in developing Waggle AI, such as incorporating AI for automatic note-taking to reduce user friction. She describes how Waggle AI assists in meeting preparations, records notes, and provides feedback on leadership skills, helping managers improve their delegation and empathy skills. She also highlights the importance of blending productivity tools with leadership development to enhance team performance and individual well-being. The discussion also touches on the ethical considerations and core values driving Waggle AI, to emphasize user privacy and minimizing additional workload for managers. Sarah concludes by outlining her vision for the product, focusing on deepening the AI's understanding of managers and adapting recommendations to individual team members' needs. Waggle AI (https://www.usewaggle.ai/) Follow Waggle AI on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/wearewaggle/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/waggle__ai/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@waggleai), or X (https://twitter.com/waggle_ai). Follow Sarah Touzani on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-touzani/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Sarah Touzani, Founder of Waggle AI, your AI leadership skills coach. Sarah, thank you for joining us. SARAH: Of course. Thanks for having me. VICTORIA: To open us up here, what is a past or current hobby that you enjoy? SARAH: I need to be honest. I haven't done much outside of working since I started the company. But prior to that, I used to spend a lot of time in a pottery studio making pots, and bowls, and mugs, and gifting them to anyone I meet. WILL: That's really impressive because I tried it for, like, I think a college class. And if you make one mistake, the whole thing gets ruined. I think I made, like, a little, very small bowl, and that was all I could get [laughs]. SARAH: Yeah. I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of extreme focus in a way because, like you said, like, the single moment your hand moves slightly off, the whole thing is over. WILL: What's the item that was the most complicated or you're the most proud of? SARAH: I would say a big bowl that I made, which has a bit of an odd shape because, actually, it was going bad. And I kind of caught it back and made that mistake into something done on purpose in the design, and it worked quite well. But it's also not your average pot or average bowl you see everywhere. VICTORIA: That's really cool. And I echo Will's sentiments of being impressed by people who can do pottery because I did take a class right before the pandemic. And then, the pandemic hit, and we weren't able to fire any of our pieces [laughs]. But I found that it took just a lot of patience, even to be able to figure out the first step. Like, putting the clay onto the spinning wheel and doing that correctly just takes a lot of practice. And so, I'm curious if you find any of those skills or values from doing pottery translate into being a founder. SARAH: Yeah, actually, this is funny because I wrote a blog article about this a few years ago when I first started. I think there are a lot of learnings to take away from that and bring into work, weirdly. It's that sense of focus. When you're starting a company very early, there's a million things that you want to be doing and, actually, you can't. You need to do one thing and do it well. And the ability to zoom in and focus on one single thing is a massive game changer. Also, my last job was as busy and insane as the current one, which is being a founder, because it was, like, a senior role in a super-fast-growing startup. And I was always on my phone, or always thinking about work, or always having something coming at me and trying to answer questions and do stuff on Slack. And with your hands dirty, you're actually forced not to do any work and go back to that focus and that mental clarity. And that was also, like, extremely valuable back then. So, saying this out loud makes me think that I probably should go back and do it. VICTORIA: I recommend it. I did a hand pottery class with my little sister. I have a big sister, little sister mentorship relationship. And we made little ceramics, and it was super fun. Just, like, an hour a week. SARAH: Super nice. WILL: So, Sarah, you mentioned a little bit about your background. Tell us more about that. Where did you get started? How did you become a founder of your company? How did the idea come up? Just anything in those areas. SARAH: Yeah. Sounds good. So, I have a bit of, like, a traditional business school type of profile. I was a good student. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So, I went into a business school, graduated, went into banking and consulting, which are, I guess, those, like, sexy jobs that you want to get when you are still at school. And I had done them and felt a bit out of place because I wanted to get things to move way faster than they were moving in these, like, very corporate set-in-their-ways type of companies. So, left that industry and moved to a very early-stage startup. I used to live in Paris back then, and I moved to London. At the same time, joined a very early-stage startup in FinTech. We were four when I joined. And we didn't have a product, didn't have any revenue. And I had to grow that company to about 200,000 customers, 50 million series A, and 80 people in the team, of which I managed about 50. All of this happened in 4 years. And I was hired into that role because of my background and because of my experience in risk management, compliance, like, all of the very technical aspects of my career. But at the end of the day, I spent most of my time trying to build a culture that motivated people to do their best work that enabled people to perform. And that's not something you really get to learn either at school or, in most cases, at work either. You just need to figure it out. So, I was trying to find a way where we could enable managers to learn these skills once they're in the job. Because when they mess up and when I messed up as a manager, it had a cost not only on the company but also on the wellbeing and mental health of the people that I was managing. And I couldn't really find a solution existing. So, I started working on one and spoke to one of my best friends about it, who is a multiple-time founder, and we just got to work. And fast forward a year and a half, here we are. VICTORIA: I'm wondering if there was anything in the early phases that surprised you in the customer discovery process, maybe caused you to shift direction. SARAH: Yeah, definitely. So, early days, we started with this problem, which is that most interactions between a team member and their manager happen in meetings. And that, overall, everyone is kind of frustrated with meetings, especially post-COVID, where we started doing a bunch of them online. It seemed to not work. And it seems that meeting management skills were a bit absent, and they should be part of the toolbox for a manager. So, started by trying to help managers run better meetings. And we relied on them taking notes from those meetings, like, in writing preparing for those meetings and taking notes for them in writing. And quickly realized that a very small portion of people were actually doing that note-taking. It seems obvious saying it out loud now, but back then, we didn't really know that. And so, we kind of had to switch gears and use way more AI than we intended, at least at that stage, to enable that automatic note-taking and gathering of data for us to be able to support the managers. Because if we don't know what they're working on and what's happening in their world, it's super hard for us to give them any feedback. But if they don't take notes and share them with us, then we can't really do anything. So, I had to shift gears and build an embedded note taker within the product to remove, like, a big portion of that friction that we saw with early users. WILL: I love that and just your whole product. I'm a productivity nerd, so I just love it. And I was a manager for a couple of years, and it's not the easiest. So, I love what your product is doing. Can you give us an overview of exactly what your product does so the audience can know what we're talking about? SARAH: Yeah, of course. So, the product is an AI coach or an AI co-pilot for managers. And the way it works is it connects to your calendar. It creates a space to collaborate with your team on each of the meetings you have. Prior to the meeting happening, we also give you access to one-click templates and ways to run those meetings. And then, when the meeting is happening, the Waggle Bot joins the call, takes notes for you, picks up on both action items that you mentioned during the conversation, who they were assigned to, who mentioned them, but also decisions that were made or about to be made that you need to either come back to and confirm or make sure that everyone is aware of. And finally, and the most exciting part, to me, is that it gives you feedback on your leadership skills, a bit like if your coach was listening to your conversations with your team members. And it will say things like, "You mentioned a few tasks during this call, and you didn't delegate any of them to the team while you had the opportunity to. So, next time you have a call, think about what tasks you could actually delegate," or it will say, "Well done showing empathy when Will, in your team, mentioned that their daughter was sick and that they had to leave work early today." So, it really works as a feedback loop to reinforce good behavior, but also give you tips and show you those unknowns that you didn't really think about and what impact they can have on your team and on your team's productivity. And finally, from that, we build a full picture of where you're good at, and where we can support you, and how those skills evolve over time through the feedback we give you. VICTORIA: Yeah, as a manager myself, I'm thinking about all the things I do to try to make my meetings as efficient as possible by, you know, having automatic Slack updates that say, "As a reminder, go look at your tickets, update them before the call," like, rotating who's taking notes and facilitating the meeting, and thinking about how that could reduce the burden from the team and just help everyone save time and share that information more widely. Because sometimes I do have maybe a dozen meetings in a day, like, 12, 30-minute meetings [laughs]. And that's a lot of notes to take. So, I usually estimate every meeting takes another 30 minutes to an hour to wrap up and follow up afterwards. SARAH: Yeah, I think that's a good assessment. And if you actually stick to spending those 30 minutes extra for each one of the meetings, I can tell you you're one of the best performers. Because what we've been seeing is that a lot of people, especially in startups or, like, fast-moving environments cannot afford to spend that time. So, we're trying to see how we can remove that friction and make those 30 minutes that you need to spend more like five minutes pre-meeting and potentially another five minutes after the meeting. And that's it. You're done. VICTORIA: How many people did you talk to in the first 30 and 90 days of your startup? SARAH: So, that's all we did in the first few months because we wanted to validate that this was not, like, an us problem. So, I spoke to about 75 managers over the first 2 to 3 months. So, that's in itself a lot of meetings, and a lot of calls, and a lot of recorded calls. And we still speak to an average of 5 to 10 managers per week to make sure that we keep a pulse on what our users are really experiencing and the pain points they are going through. WILL: Yeah, I could tell that you did talk to a lot of managers because I wish I would have had this whenever I had direct reports. Because I remember, early on, someone told me "No one cares what you know until they know that you care." But on the flip side of that, a lot of times, like you were saying, you're just so busy. Most companies they give you multiple direct reports, more than three or four. And it's almost impossible to really show how much you care in a small amount of time. But this seems like it makes it way more helpful to say, "Hey, I not only care about you as a worker but as a person, too." So, like you said, show empathy because they mentioned X, Y, Z, or take notes around, you know, whatever happened in this so that you know next time that, hey, ask him about that. So, I really like this idea that you created. The question I have around it is leadership is not easy. So, how did you come up with the direction to go with the leadership? If that makes sense. Because I've seen different leaderships, I've seen some leaderships it's like, yeah, show empathy. Show that you care about the person. And some it's like, no, it's all about work. All about work. And it seems like you lean more towards, I want to show that we care about the worker. So, where did you decide to take which route and things like that? SARAH: I love this because you're right. There's an art and a science to leadership. And I think, actually, there's way more science than we think. It's this common belief that leadership is something you are born with, and you don't need to learn that it's, I think, hurting both managers and the people they manage a lot. Because then people think, "Oh, but it must come naturally," or "This is a natural born leader." And as a result, the person who isn't or that people think isn't we think they're never going to change, and I don't think that's true. There's a set of behaviors that have been researched by organizational psychologists, behavioral scientists that have been shown to have impacts on people's motivation, productivity, outputs. So, we make sure to follow those best practices and those scientific data points. One of our advisors is a behavioral scientist. A couple of our advisors are leadership coaches. And one of them has even published a book around how to scale high-performing teams and high-performing companies. So, we try as much as we can to really embed what we're doing in science and in things that are known, albeit not super widely. And as you said, you need both. You need to care about the person doing the tasks, and you need to care about the tasks being done. But they can't really be separate. And you need to balance the act between the two things. So, that's why we have blended the productivity app with a part that is more centered around skills and skills development because those two things need to communicate. You can't just throw a tool at people and expect them to know how to use it. And at the same time, if you don't make sure that the upskilling and, like, feedback you give is rooted in that person's context and what they're going through, it's not going to be leveraged or used. So, our approach was really to blend these two things and make sure that, yes, this is going to make the manager's team happier, but it's also going to make them more productive. So, it's not just about happiness. It's about linking both productivity and well-being at work. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious, how do you measure the impact you're having on wellbeing at work? What are the success indicators, and how do you know you're successful in a year or five years from now? SARAH: We only have been onboarding customers six months ago. So, I think we're starting to see some of the results we want to see, but it's still a bit early days because, as you said, behavioral change and habits take a long time to form and become sticky and start showing an impact on wellbeing. But overall, the feedback, the qualitative feedback we got was that managers feel way less imposter syndrome using the app. They feel that they are on top of what they need to achieve. They know what they're doing. They know what's expected of them. And their team also appreciates the fact that they are spending time and effort trying to get better because they know that they are using this tool to improve. So, they also get a signal that, okay, they are really trying. But at the same time, we do measure these. So, that feedback we give is actually based on measurement or assessment of each one of the skills that we measure for our users. And we have seen those scores evolve and go up over time just over the last few months. Personally, I'm quite bad at delegation. Potentially, that's why I brought it up earlier. And I have seen my score improve over the last few months using Waggle because it's more front of mind. I'm aware that I'm being assessed that almost someone is looking at what I'm doing, even if it's an AI. So, it feels a bit more safe than if it was a real person looking at what I was doing. But I know that I need to be on my A-game every day, and so I put in intentional efforts to try and delegate when I'm in a team meeting. And, potentially, I wouldn't have had that same level of awareness if I didn't get that feedback. I would just not delegate but not to be aware that I wasn't. WILL: I like what you said is AI is not like your manager sitting in the meeting with you and saying, "Hey, you have to get these scores up," but it feels safer that AI is telling you, "Hey, you have to improve your empathy and get better at that." So, I really like that idea. SARAH: Nice. Let's get you on the app then. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: So, I'm looking at your website now and, you know, I'm looking at the side, and it's like, "Hey, you know, Emily presented well, you know, send them a note of encouragement, or share a summary of the email." I made so many mistakes when I was a leader, so many. I wish I would have known the benefit of...because I almost...when I first went into it, I was like, they're adults. They can take their own notes. And now that I look at it, it's like, I could have easily helped out just saying, "Hey, here's a summary of the meeting that we had, and this is how we get better," and just helping each other out. So, I really like what you're doing here and what you have already in the app. What's on the horizon for the app? What does success look like in the next six months or five years for you? SARAH: So, the way we see it is we want to know more about the managers we're helping, know more about their context, what's going on in their daily life. Because the more we know, the more we can help them and support them. So, the way we see it is now we basically get data through the calendar connection, and through the meeting notes, and transcripts that we get. But we would also like to know how they communicate with their team on Slack. How do they get their tasks done, and how does their team get their tasks done? How do they follow up on those tasks? But also, how fast do they reply to emails? What's the context of their emails? All of these things are data points that we can use to know their context and know them better and really tweak the AI so that it knows them better and it adapts to their setup. So that, as we go, what the AI tells you is completely different from what it tells me, for example, because it's got to know you, and it's got to know what interventions work well for you and which ones don't and get smarter at that. And also, it gets to know how your team reacts to those behaviors that you show and attitudes. Which types of management work for Amy in your team versus Jim, right? Because they are different people as well. And so, whatever works with one person doesn't necessarily work with another and help you adapt and flex your management style with them. VICTORIA: Do you have any other core values that drive your everyday decisions? SARAH: We want to make sure that this never turns into a spying tool, and this is super key in the way we thought about the product, and we built it from very early days. We're conscious that we're having access, and our users trust us with a lot of data. And we're never going to share that data, even with your own manager. Because this is a tool for you as a manager to work on your skills and have that growth mindset, not for someone to spy on you or know how you're behaving. So, that's a commitment that we'll never share any specific data from users to their leadership team, to their HR team, no one else in the team, really. What we also have as a guiding principle is we want to minimize the amount of work that is required from you to leverage these skills. So, we are trying to save managers' time whenever we can and wherever we can and never just, like, load a lot of content and feedback on them that they're not going to have time to process an action. So to strike a balance between, okay, well, you probably need to spend a bit more time on this specific skill or following up on this specific meeting. But we also saved you two hours today throughout the day so that you can focus on that extra half an hour work that is going to help your skills improve. WILL: What are some of your biggest hurdles? SARAH: Well, basically, this didn't exist until now. And so, just finding how we talk about it and, like, I mean, no one is looking for the solution because they don't know it's there, right? So, the first part is, how do we find people that we can support and help who aren't necessarily looking for this but are looking for alternative solutions that exist right now? And how do we talk about it in a way that makes them click and makes them envision this new way of doing things as a potential better way? A lot of startups go through this journey. But basically, no one was looking for Ubers before Uber existed. People would hail a cab. And so, at the beginning, Uber pretended to be a cab service before they said, "Okay, we're actually not a cab. We're something else." And so, that something else is what we're trying to define right now. VICTORIA: I used to live in a neighborhood in DC where the cab drivers would not go to [laughs]. So, I really loved Uber when it first started because I could actually get a ride. So, that's where some of the innovation comes in sometimes. It's like, solving a problem and seeing the demand and then building a product around it. I'm curious about how you're building an AI product and how are you thinking about controlling the cost and the kind of infrastructure demands of an app like Waggle? SARAH: To be completely honest, we're not focused on that so much right now. I think it's a very fair question, and it's something that we're going to start to have to look into as we start to scale. But, for now, we're really focused on figuring out are we delivering the value we want to deliver to our users? Can we fix the problems they are hiring us to fix? But yeah, for sure, at scale, this is super costly, and we'll need to figure out the unit economics of the product and how to make it work, but we're not there yet. VICTORIA: And how are you finding the resources to be able to experiment and have the time to build this product? What networks, or communities, or venues have you found to create space to build your app? SARAH: So, we've been through Techstars last year. And I think the network around Techstars was super useful in gathering a lot of feedback in a very short amount of time over the three months that the program lasted. And we try to put a lot of content out there to try help people who are looking for solutions to communicate with an employee who's not performing at the level they expected them to or for a manager that doesn't know how to do a one-on-one. This type of content we're putting it out for free because it's solving our end user's problem, partially at least, and puts us on their radar. So, they might think, "Okay, I started looking into this first problem because that's what's front of mind right now. But as I see this product, it potentially could help me through a lot more issues that I'm currently having," and get visibility across those users that are exactly our perfect type of user. But yeah, overall, trying to put content out there creates a community around us. Lots of connections that happen through LinkedIn, through existing networks, through our users talking to other users about us, and even a number of coaches and L&D experts who really, really love what we're doing and talk about us to their users, to their customers and spread the word that way. WILL: You're talking about, like, explaining the product to your customers and everyone. I think, for me, it resonates fairly easy because I made so many mistakes as a leader. And I'm like, oh, this could have helped me so many times to be a better leader. And so, I'll make an assumption. It seems like your product was made out of you making mistakes and learning from them, and you built a product because you want to be a better leader. So, my question for you is: What advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started? What's some advice that you can go back in time and give yourself? SARAH: One of the first ones, and one of the biggest mistakes, and I've also heard this from so many other managers, is that as human beings, we tend to treat people the way we would like to be treated. And very quickly, we understand that that's not how things work. So, I used to like having space not to be managed very closely. So, I would just naturally give a lot of space to the people I started managing when I first started. It might work for some of them, but not for all of them. And that's what created the most issues and lack of performance, I would say, coming from them. And it's easy to think, oh, it's their fault. They're not performing. But no, it's my fault as a manager because I didn't adapt to their needs, and I didn't give them what they needed to perform. And that's, again, very different from one person to another. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to go back to something you mentioned earlier about empathy. And just maybe how do you build an AI with a sense of empathy that helps managers be more empathetic? SARAH: So, again, interestingly, AI can pick up on human behaviors way more than we think. Like, the feedback we get from the app sometimes is super interesting and, like, sometimes even a bit scary because these are patterns, right? AI is good at recognizing patterns. If you tell it what to look for, it will find it. So, it works. It just works. VICTORIA: Well, I'm very curious to try it out. And I have some people I'm thinking about who work in building empathy with developers and engineers, and they probably would also really love to try it out. SARAH: Nice. Send them our way. VICTORIA: Of course. Do you have any questions for me or Will? SARAH: Yeah. What's the hardest thing you're currently doing at work that you would love support on? WILL: I think as a developer, there's a lot of things that I don't know that I wish I know what direction to take. Because I feel like as a developer, you come in and you're like, I want to learn X, Y, Z, but there's so much to uncover. For example, mobile, there's so many directions to learn with mobile. In the technical part, probably sometimes what direction to go in my learning and things like that. Because, like, I'm a senior developer, and I've reached a certain part. But I feel like now it's like you learn on the go. Like, oh, I have this problem. Let me solve it. So, sometimes I wish I can get ahead of that and be like, hey, go learn how to do this because you're going to use it later. So, that's probably my biggest thing with technical. And probably relational, you touched on it a little bit, but naturally, we're bent towards treating other people the way we want to be treated. And so, what that says is everyone around me has my exact background, my exact trauma, my exact upbringing. So, if you treat them that way, this should make sense, and that's just not the way it is. And so, I think, for me, it's making sure that I remind myself of that and to listen, to understand that background, trauma, whatever, of the people that I'm working with so that I can get to know them better and understand them better, and then I can know how to treat them. So, I would say that's probably my two biggest things that I have to continually work on and fight to make sure that I'm doing it the right way. SARAH: I love that. VICTORIA: Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective, Will. And from a slightly different angle, I think I'm someone who really enjoys complex tasks. So, I think those are actually more fun and easier to do [laughs] but that more mundane tasks are kind of difficult. And making sure I'm on top of those, like, tiny, little to-dos that make you effective just consistently with certain managing tasks. But I think in terms of complexity and one of the hardest things to do, kind of along the lines of what Will was saying, you have to establish a common language between your team. And you have to have a system for managing your work so that everyone feels heard and everyone understands each other, and so you can move quickly and make decisions. So, I think that's a really complicated task. And the more people you have, the more complicated it is. There's just so many different ways of solving that problem, and everyone comes back from different cultures, different corporate cultures, different tools that they've used, and their preferences. And people's preferences on tools can almost be religious, and that's interesting to me how strongly people can hold on to how they've been doing things. And making that shift in direction step by step and having the patience for it, I think, is difficult. SARAH: It's so funny that most problems, at the end of the day, are people problems, even if they don't start by being that. WILL: I totally agree with that because I chose what company to work for based off of the people and the culture more than the other problems. Because I've worked in some companies that had a great culture, but the people were treated right. And I enjoyed working with the people that I was working with. And then, I had some that I'm like, uh, I got to go in today and deal with such and such, and ugh. I think you're spot on. That caused me more stress than trying to solve the actual tasks that I was working on. So, yeah, I actually choose companies that I like working with the people. So, with thoughtbot, I love my co-workers. I love getting to know them the diversity in it. So, that's one of the reasons why I love thoughtbot so much. SARAH: What a great way to end this. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Sarah. I really enjoyed listening to your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Bareeq Barqawi, DEI talent development analyst at Reed Smith, is joined by Sarah Hassaine, head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed, to explore Sarah's remarkable journey and groundbreaking work in the field of diversity and inclusion advocacy. As April marks National Arab American Heritage Month, Sarah shares personal insights on how her cultural background has shaped her approach to fostering inclusion both personally and professionally. From championing health equity to addressing gender disparities and advocating for marginalized communities, Sarah offers practical strategies and invaluable advice for individuals and organizations seeking to drive positive change in their spheres of influence. Listen to this episode to gain valuable insights into the transformative power of inclusive leadership. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, the Reed Smith DEI podcast. I'm your host Bareeq Barqawi today. In honor of April being Arab American Heritage Month, we have the privilege of speaking with Sarah Hassaine, the head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed and a trailblazer in the realm of diversity and inclusion advocacy. Before we delve into our discussion, I'd like to introduce our esteemed guests to our listeners. Sarah has is a dynamic leader with a decade long track record in driving global diversity and inclusion initiatives. Currently leading a global team at ResMed, she consults, advises, and upskills leaders worldwide, designs and delivers in-house D&I trainings and evaluates policies to drive inclusion. Notable achievements include expanding Resmed's ERGs or employee resource groups from 4 to 17, increasing self ID percentages by 4% and spearheading initiatives to improve representation and advocate for accessibility. Sarah brings over 20 years of management experience with a focus on HR initiatives recognized as San Diego businesswoman of the year in 2022. She holds an MBA from Wharton Business School and outside of work, she enjoys traveling, speaking three languages and finds relaxation in sunny beach days with a good book. Today, she joins us to share her insights and experiences. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.  Sarah: Thank you. It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.  Bareeq: Of course. I'm going to dive right in for the sake of time. Sarah as an Arab American, how has your cultural background influenced your approach to diversity and inclusion advocacy, both personally and professionally?  Sarah: Yeah, And I'm really excited and happy that we're talking about the Arab American identity. Growing up, you're, you were othered as Arab Americans. So it has helped me across my career because the beautiful thing about being an inclusion and diversity leader is that you're navigating a lot of conversations around people feeling othered, and it's any category, right? Whether it's a parent, a caregiver, a veteran, a reservist, a lot of us experience that and as an Arab American, our identity is not accounted for, right? We're, you know, we're in the Census in the US, we're accounted for as white, but we're not treated as white. Oftentimes, our names are misspelled. Uh We get a lot of questions, small microaggressions, A lot of stereotypes get cast. And as someone who grew up, you know, an American grew up in this country, uh it is very hard to constantly feel like, oh, well, you know, you guys do this or you're, you're being othered all the time. So that has definitely helped with empathy and helping me understand the communities I work with and being able to relate and show that kind of validation to, to everyone else.  Bareeq: Wonderful. As an Arab American myself, I can, I can only relate to it because I, I always say when people ask why we got into this line of work, I say, well, being excluded, majority of my life has, has uh made me want to have others avoid this feeling um and be as inclusive as we possibly can be. So, thank you for that. So can you share actually a specific moment or experience that was pivotal in your transition into the realm of inclusion and diversity advocacy?  Sarah: Yeah. So I was supporting a recruiting team uh in a past life at a, a large company. And what we started seeing organically, right was that we got less female applicants, we got less women engaging with us at conference booths and we really didn't have any women on the team. And it started kind of, you know, being this issue that the hiring managers, like we, you know, we're seeing other women going to other companies, but they're not coming here. And why is that? And we had to look inward and understand that our marketing material, the language, we, we were interviewing, we would, you know, candidates, but they would be meeting with six males and then they meet the team. And so then it wasn't actually feeling like an attractive, safe space or there was no representation. And that's when it hit me that you can be supporting business culture, you can be supporting a business, you know, in many different facets. But if the business doesn't have a culture where employees feel like they can belong, that to me was the crux of what I wanted to do. It just hit me. I'm like, this is what I wanna do. It started with women, but then it became about everybody else and everything else. Um So that was kind of my, my point and that was about 10+ years ago. Uh when I got to start working on commercials and advertisements and conference booths and really thinking about what is inclusive engagement look like. How do you attract talent so that they know that when they come in there's, they're going to have a sense of belonging?  Bareeq: I love that. That's so insightful. I think that's such a great, I guess segue into my next question because, you know, we talk about gender disparity and addressing gender disparities is a crucial aspect of advocacy work. And you often talk about encountering challenges in attracting entertaining women in the workplace. What strategies do you find most effective in addressing such challenges?  Sarah: Yeah, there's a lot of data around how women that are mentored, usually they actually stay, they're more loyal to their companies and they actually have more growth trajectory. I will say mentorship and intentional leadership development programs are really important. The second thing I would also talk about is succession planning. Companies need to really think about, okay, here's our workforce in this department. What are we doing to make sure there's an equitable opportunity for promotion for assessment uh of performance of assigning stretch assignments. And so it needs to be a level playing field for everyone. So in order to really develop, make sure that your female population is having the same access as all other genders, you wanna make sure that you have strong succession planning retention methods like learning and development and mentorship.  Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for those examples. Actually, in dedication to promoting health equity within ResMed's diversity and inclusion initiatives, can you elaborate on your efforts in this area and how you ensure that health care solutions and services provided by ResMed are accessible and inclusive for diverse communities, including those that are often actually um marginalized and underserved?  Sarah: Yeah, there are a couple of answers I want to dive into for this one. So the first one is really thinking about the diversity in our mask and sleep trials in order for us to really think about a product that, you know, we sell worldwide in over 150 countries. So we wanna make sure that we're designing a mask um that has a rep representation already. So there's been a lot of intentionality around marketing to different communities that they participate in your sleep trials and your mask trials. So it has to start at the base of your product and with your research. We also have an entire department dedicated to medical research. And they have done a great job in terms of looking at the disparities between different populations, whether it's um African American women or Hispanic, like we start looking at a location. Uh So we, we, we address health equity in different ways. So there's the research component, there's the product component and then there's, you know, the fact that our business model is different in every country to your point about underrepresented or underserved communities, really making sure that, you know, our, that providers are telling patients, hey, get sleep tested or have you thought about looking into, you know, maybe going to a storefront? Right. So it depends where we're selling. Uh, it varies. In the United States, we go through HMEs. And so we want to make sure that that our doctors are getting our patients either at home sleep tests or getting them come to come into sleep clinics.  Bareeq: That's great, especially that partnership between the doctors and your organization, um and bringing them into that conversation. Um So I know your work extends beyond the corporate realm into advocacy for marginalized communities. Um Can you share about your involvement with refugee communities, orphans and economic inclusion in the San Diego community specifically?  Sarah: Yeah, you know, the refugee space is something very dear to my heart. When I graduated college, I worked in refugee camps in Lebanon um for different communities, African, Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese at the time. And then I went back when the war in Syria was happening in 2016. And I worked for a couple of weeks teaching English. So the first time I did socio-economic assessments to understand what the needs were. The gaps I should say, then I went back and taught English. So the way I look at refugee assistance or assimilation is around empowerment. San Diego has one of the largest refugee communities in the United States. Um We have every community here possible; Burmese, Somali, Kurdish, Syrian, Iraqi, uh Bosnian. And growing up here, I saw the waves of communities come in. And so it was a lot around upskilling, trying to get jobs, trying to get the school, the kids to get, you know, um learn English, get mentors. So I partnered with Teach and Learn Literacy, which was actually an organization through the Arab American Anti Discrimination Committee and uh volunteered twice a week teaching a Syrian family of eight English and helping them get jobs. So I did that for a few years uh now from an economic inclusion lens as I grow in my career, I partner with different nonprofits. Um So there's like the United Women of South of East Africa, they have a community center, there's the Refugee Assistance Council. So there's, there are all these organizations that do that look for mentorships, they want internships for students. So there's a lot of opportunity for corporations like ResMed or others across San Diego. So we try to build bridges around access to information, access to jobs, to mentors. And that to me is really important to make sure that our talent in San Diego stays here, grows here, feels like the sense of belonging here. So that's uh that's kind of what I do outside of work.  Bareeq: No, I love that because it's, it's also a representative of the community within which you're you are working in and, and finding ways to actually include the community in, in the work that you're doing. And I think that's actually incredibly commendable. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm actually gonna just gonna dive into the next question, which actually has to do with this as well. And it combines a couple of things we already discussed, which is in promoting economic inclusion and pay equity, what are some practical steps organizations can take to achieve gender parity in the workplace? I know this is always, I guess like a hot topic when it comes to any really across all sectors. But I would love to hear your uh your insight on it.  Sarah: Yeah, you have to start with data, you have to start with an analysis. So my recommendation to those listening is to understand if your organization has done a pay equity analysis, um understand your your data breakdown, right within organizations, looking at the different gender breakdowns. Then you can start understanding whether you have a story or not, right? Oh, some companies will do that pay equity analysis and then they'll come back and realize, well, we've had, you know, we have this percentage of cases. It could be bad, it could be not bad, not as bad as you thought, right? But it's very, very important to start with data. So my recommendation is to understand your gender breakdowns within each business unit. And I don't necessarily, I'm not the biggest fan of setting exact goals like percentages like X percent. I think it's important to go to leaders and say, well, here's where you are right now and here's what the benchmark is in this organization. So if you're looking at a finance or you're looking at electrical engineering, the gender availability in the pool of talent is different to begin with. So you can't claim 50/50 when you don't even have 50% a female representation in electrical engineering, for example. So understanding what the benchmarks are, is really going to help you. And then you can kind of say Well, you know what, let's really try to build more of a robust pipeline. Let's be more intentional or let's sponsor this conference. So that's where you really need to start solution out. It's not a one size fits all for an entire company. You have to break down a company within the departments. And then you also need to think about the overall pay equity analysis and understanding what, where potential remunerations are and if you have to do any adjustments.  Bareeq: I really love that because you're also talking about kind of funneling it down to, to it's almost like a case by case basis, like looking at different departments or different for, let's say, let's say, for example, the legal industry, we look at different practice groups and what is the representation there to begin with before we kind of dive into what the data says. I think that's a really great point. So actually I had a question and this is going to be a little bit of a pivot. So we talk about the importance of stripping away assumptions and biases in this line of work. How can individuals and organizations actively to work toward this goal? I think it's something that I would say the word actively because it's a really a never ending process. Um But what are some, I guess tips and advice you have for people.  Sarah: You know, I see a lot of D&I leaders focusing on unconscious bias trainings and that's it's great, but they're not really proven to help or work. It is important to offer it and it's important to uh have frameworks in place. What I find more valuable is showing leaders framework so that they understand psychologically why we have built in biases. Biases are there. It's it's not good to shame anyone for having biases. So what I always do, my recommendation is to know how to navigate biases. So you need to look at each team and kind of think about, ok, talent acquisition, what are potential biases here? With resumes, here's what we could do to navigate this or with interviewing, here's what we can do to navigate biases. So kind of going back to the the gender equity, it's your solutions need to go, they are tailored to the part of the department or company that has built in biases, right? If we're talking in promotion season, uh what I've done at companies before where I am now and now is let's make sure you have that point, that person who's in the meetings to make sure that there are no biases in assessing talent. Let's make sure that you don't have any biases when you're discussing promotions. So that's, that's where it's really important is when you're having promotion conversations, a hiring conversations, development conversations. I will say, I think it's very important to repeat conversations around unconscious bias. I do this training at least twice a year globally and people show up and actually leaders ask for it. They're just like, can you come in and talk about it because biases show up even in the way we communicate. I mean, Bareeq, we started off this conversation talking about being Arab American. I can't tell you how many times people tell me, I don't look Arab like I don't even understand what that means. Right. So the biases are there. And I think the biggest thing we can also teach our employees is knowing how to navigate those conversations, in a safe way, right, as a coachable moment. You know, so that's where we don't want more microaggressions. We want safe conversations where people are learning from one another.  Bareeq: I couldn't agree with you more, especially about the repetition because I just learned in a change management workshop that something only sticks after it's been repeated to you seven times which, you know, and talking about bias, I agree. I've, I've always been of the mindset that I can't shame anyone for bias because I think bias is inherently human. Um And you can't, you know, human beings will have bias. It's really about providing, providing tool kits in order to create bias disruption. Um And that's something that I think is a, is a powerful tool to provide people and, and reminding them, you know, over the course of time like, hey, this is available and let's talk about it and kind of bring it to the forefront, especially in very pivotal moments in the company. So like when you talk about performance assessment or they're going into recruiting season or things like that, I think it's um it's always like an essential thing to keep it in mind. So I completely agree. Um So I had something about challenges that we, that we end up facing and overcoming. It's an inevitable part of this advocacy work. Can you share a challenging moment in your journey and how you overcame it?  Sarah: Only one?  Bareeq: I was about to say there's probably many but one that comes, yeah, whatever comes to mind.  Sarah: I mean, the biggest thing that comes to mind is, is budget, right? Resources. The biggest challenge I had was um being on D&I teams and not being funded, not given adequate support and being de prioritized. And I know um if there are any D&I leaders listening to this, I'm sure there are some heads nodding or uh it is the hardest thing because I don't believe that we are set up for successfully. Uh And so the, the, you know, the days I have very long days and the days where I end even more exhausted is because I felt like someone didn't show up to meeting or move me out again or delayed a solution. Uh that is hard. And the other hard part is when you know, you need support or you need head count or you need that, that money or you want to sponsor, it gets really hard when you want to sponsor something and you don't have money to do it. And so com companies need to be very committed if your company is saying that they're committed to D&I, well, you have to, you have to show up. Right. And so that's where I'll say the biggest challenges.  Bareeq: Yeah, I found that even, not just where I am currently but in other organizations I've worked for, it's, it's definitely a constant problem if either it's monetarily or like you said, having that support. And I found that kind of pivoting the conversation almost lately, especially like making it a business case brings some people to the table in a different way because they're like, oh, you know, I never thought of it this way. So it's almost like changing perspectives on people's approach to D&I. You, you sometimes hope it was, you know, people come into it like already being there, but to get people there, you kind of have to find different approaches I feel. And finally, as we wrap up, um so what advice would you give beyond what we've given, because this has been a wonderful key conversation, what would you give advice to individuals or organizations looking to become more active in promoting inclusion diversity within their spheres of influence?  Sarah: Just to make sure it's uh for companies, right?  Bareeq: Advice for, for companies, for individuals, you know, people that are working to become more influential in the organization.  Sarah: So for internal advocates or internal stakeholders and D&I leaders, there is the opportunity you there's to really understand the power of influence and persistence and no one can really succeed in D&I without that strategic business lens. Like you need to understand your business and by understanding the business, then you can adapt a conversation around. What does inclusion mean at this business? What does it mean? Whether for my products, for my people, for our policies? Uh So that's my biggest one for internal and then for companies, I will say it's very important that if your values call out inclusion, diversity, belonging, acceptance, accessibility, then you have to embed that across all your work streams. You have to really think about. It's not just a people practice, it's an every leader, every person practice.  Bareeq: Thank you so much. I love that because it's almost like building in the expectation in anything that you kind of approach within the company. I love that. Thank you so much, Sarah for sharing your valuable insights and experience with us today. It's been an honor having you on the podcast and we really, I think have taken away some wonderful, wonderful key tips and advice that we will definitely be using hopefully.  Sarah: This is a joy. Thank you so much, Bareeq for the opportunity.  Bareeq: Thank you. And that's all for today's episode of Inclusivity Included. Join us next time as we continue our exploration of diversity, equity and inclusion. Thank you for listening.  Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

As a property management entrepreneur, you know how stressful day-to-day work and life can get. Over the years, we've noticed that property managers often neglect their own health until they burn out… In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull chat about the importance of taking breaks and relaxing periodically as a property management business owner. You'll Learn [01:36] You're stressed out! Now what? [07:44] If you're burnt out, you aren't effective [15:32] Why you need to take a vacation ASAP [17:37] Take a break… or else Tweetables “Just because you're working more or working harder does not mean you're productive or you're effective.” “The thing that will give you more productivity is to stop and take a break.” “Cars have both the gas and the brake. You need to realize that in your business, there's a time for gas and there's a time for the brake.” “If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one. That's exactly when you need one. When you go, "I just don't think there's any chance that I could be taken away from the business. Like everything is on me and there's no possible way that I can do it." [00:00:15] That is exactly when you need to do it. [00:00:18] Do it. Book it. You have to. Otherwise this is your life forever.  [00:00:23] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:04] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:25] And now let's get into the show. All right. So today's topic Is what?  [00:01:30] Sarah: Relaxation.  [00:01:31] Jason: Relaxation. [00:01:33] Sarah: Yay. You know that thing that you guys never do?  [00:01:36] Jason: So, property management can be a little bit stressful. I've talked to thousands of property managers and this is a common theme. It can be a bit stressful. [00:01:44] And I can't tell you how many I've talked to that said they haven't taken a vacation in like years. They're not taking breaks. They're not taking time for themselves, like things like this. And so I think it's important to recognize that just because you're working more or working harder does not mean you're productive or you're effective. [00:02:05] And so it's important to make sure that you are taking breaks. So I think I shared on an episode recently at a client that I was coaching. And we had him do a time study, which is one of our tools we use to help clients figure out stuff. And he realized it was taking him like an hour to do things after three o'clock that took him 10 minutes to do in the morning. [00:02:26] And so that's a clue to take. a break that we need to take breaks. Yesterday I was working on some tasks and I was getting a lot of stuff done, but then I eventually hit a wall where I was trying to work on something and it just like, was really hard. Like it was just felt really difficult for my brain to work on it at that moment. [00:02:43] And I realized, "Oh, it's like in the afternoon I haven't eaten lunch yet and I probably should take a break." And so rather than forcing it and pushing forward, which I used to do in the past and do less productive work. I went and took a break. So, all right, what else should we say about taking breaks?  [00:03:01] Sarah: All right. So I know that it seems like the opposite thing that you should do when you're very busy And you've got a lot on your plate and you've got 10, 000 tasks to handle and you just have to push through and keep going and get it all done. And that if you stop, it will get harder because then you'll fall behind and then you'll have more to do and then it'll take longer and then you'll be going until midnight or later. [00:03:26] And. It's really crazy, but it is backwards because if you are just pushing through and you're trying to just get it done and dig your heels in and keep going, even when you're tired, even when your body is telling you like, "Hey, I'm tired and I need a break." Then you're still able to keep going, but you're just not efficient and you're being less productive. [00:03:50] So the thing that would give you more productivity is not to just push through and say, "I'm just going to keep going until I get it all done." The thing that will give you more productivity is to stop and take a break. I know it sounds wild, but it's true. So you need to figure out what can you do in that moment to then get some space, remove yourself from the situation and actually get into a state where your brain and your body can start to relax. [00:04:19] Jason: Sometimes breaks are not enough. A quick break's just not enough. You're right. So especially if you've been in burnout for a while.  [00:04:25] Yeah.  [00:04:26] Sarah: We've been working really hard. I talked about this on the scale call last week. There are seasons in your business where you will be because maybe you are bringing on a whole bunch of new units. Maybe you're hiring a new person. Maybe you're implementing a new system or changing softwares or working with a new coach. And there are definitely times for that. But you also have to realize that there are times for breaks and rest and relaxation. [00:04:52] Cars have both the gas and the brake. You need to realize that in your business, there's a time for gas and there's a time for the brake. So you must have both.  [00:05:04] Jason: Yeah. So we've been working really hard lately and I think we're both getting to a place of burnout. We were outfitting an an Airbnb that we're going to use for some client events and stuff as well. [00:05:14] And we've just been working on the business. We're onboarding new sales people in the company too. And it's just, it's a lot, right. And so we just a week's vacation basically. We did a cool training. If you missed it last week, it was really cool. So we did do some work but we took a break and I think it was well needed, especially after that marathon move that we did moving all that furniture into that rental. [00:05:38] Sarah: So I was pretty burned out physically, and I was nearing burnout. I was just, my stress level was through the roof. I was telling Jason, "I am on the verge of a breakdown, could happen like any little thing" and little things, little stupid things that I would normally not care about as much were setting me off like big explosions over a little stupid things. [00:06:03] Jason: Every married guy can resonate. We know when you women get like that.  [00:06:07] Sarah: Well men get like that too, though, in a different way, I think sometimes when the little things that they're an annoyance, they're a slight frustration, but it's not the end of the world. But when your body reacts to that little stupid frustration as if it is the end of the world, that's a really good cue like you need a break. So we took one. And we pushed ourselves probably to the limit and just about every capacity as business owners often do, we're like "go, hurry up, get it all done, make it happen. So we set up we set up an Airbnb in 26 hours. Everything. We cleaned it and we had no furniture. [00:06:48] We moved everything in, we assembled it, we decorated it. We got decor, silverware, dishes. There's five beds in there.  [00:06:55] Jason: Five beds.  [00:06:56] Sarah: And everything. And not just like beds...  [00:06:58] Jason: purple mattresses and stuff ready.  [00:07:00] Sarah: Yeah. It's ready to be rented out right now. And we did all of that.  [00:07:04] Jason: And it's two story.  [00:07:05] Sarah: In 26 hours. [00:07:06] Jason: All the rooms, all the bedrooms are upstairs except one. It was a good time. Hudson, my son, and I were the heavy lifters.  [00:07:12] Sarah: Yes. I wasn't going to break a nail. These are like, it's 75 to get a new set! I'm not... you do that. So we did all of this. And then we actually had this trip booked for a while. [00:07:24] It was booked last year. But the timing just worked out really well. Yeah. So we got done Sunday evening. late Sunday evening. And then Monday morning we flew out to a property, very rural in Arkansas, in Bentonville, Arkansas. It's actually Decatur, but there's like three properties in the city of Decatur, I think. [00:07:44] And then that week, it wasn't that we didn't work at all because we did, but I only worked for maybe a few hours a day and it was selective work and it was focused work. So instead of doing everything that I would normally have done, I had to then prioritize. And say, okay, "if I have two hours to do everything because I'm only going to work for two hours today or three hours today, then what are the things that I must get done today in that time?" [00:08:15] And those were the things that I focused on and anything that wasn't that I either didn't do it or I delegated it to the team. Because the thing that we also don't realize is sometimes things can wait and that's okay. We're in this era now of everything is instant. It's, "I want it right now. I want this now. I want an answer now. I want to talk to somebody now. I want Amazon right now. Like, I want everything instantly." And that has trained us to instantly respond to everything and then to be in this mindset where, "Oh, somebody needs me and then I must drop everything. I must handle it right now." It is okay to wait. [00:08:55] Jason: It's okay to say no. It's okay to say, "Hey, no, I'm not doing that today, or that's going to be done next week." Depending on the situation, you don't always have to be reactive. you should be in control in your business, right? Where you're not reacting to everything. So.  [00:09:10] Sarah: So I'll share what I shared on that Scale call is I challenged everybody to give themselves Megan Cuthin talks about this. [00:09:18] And so if Megan ever sees this. Megan, we love you. So Megan is our friend. She's out in Nashville, Tennessee. She's great. And she coaches on operations. And one of the things that she had talked about is she was noticing that every so often she would just get exhausted and then she was no longer effective. [00:09:35] And she was just like, she had no more gusto to her. She didn't want to do things. And that's because she was hitting a burnout cycle. So she was realizing her burnout cycle was happening pretty often, like every other week. And then what she needed to do when she was like that is just take a break. [00:09:53] So what she started doing is just building these little like mini breaks in. So what she does is she just chooses a day. And she blocks that day out so that she doesn't do anything that day. She has no calls. She has no appointments. She doesn't wake up at a certain time. She just treats it like a vacation day when she's at home. So she'll wake up whenever her body feels like waking up. If she wants to just read a book or watch TV or go take a nap or meditate or take a walk or go bowling or do whatever that day she does that. And then when she feels pretty well rested. relaxed and pretty well rested. [00:10:35] Usually what happens then when we start to feel that way is then our brain starts going "Oh, I should take care of that. And Oh, what if I did that? And Oh..." and we start to get pulled back in to the idea of work and then work seems now exciting again versus, "Oh, I have to do that, but I really just don't want to do it." [00:10:55] There's a big difference between going, "Oh, you know what? I could probably just do that. Oh, you know what? I had this great idea. We should do that." Then you feel excited and energized about it. That's your cue now to go back to work. And it might happen. It might take a day. It might take a few days if you're, especially if you haven't done this in a while, it might take a few days. [00:11:12] It only might take a few hours. So you might be on like this burnout day for like three hours and that's it. So that's it. My challenge to everybody on the scale call last week was to schedule yourself a day like this, where you don't do all of the things that you would normally do and allow yourself that time to relax. [00:11:31] And then my other challenge was to do this regularly. Also, don't just do it once and be like, "Oh, I'm good now." You're not, you have to continuously do this thing. And we had a client actually Josh, he closes his office every single week now on Friday early. And he's His whole team goes home early. [00:11:48] Can you imagine that? So they have about like a four and a half day work week now instead of a five day. And the whole team gets everything done. They appreciate having that extra time in that extra afternoon. And instead of going "Oh, well I like, I can't not work on Friday afternoon because then all of this stuff won't get done." [00:12:08] They get it done. So they're getting the same amount of work done, but in a shorter amount of time because they're properly motivated and they get extra time now to relax. So essentially they're getting a longer weekend. So I would challenge you to do the same thing, pick a day. And if you're like, "there is no chance I could do that right now!" That's fine. [00:12:27] Do three weeks from now. Pick a day and close your office early. The nice thing is you don't actually have to do it. You just have to tell your brain that you're going to do it. So say, "I'm going to close at one o'clock today." And then what you'll subconsciously do is start filtering all of the work and all of the things that must get done. [00:12:43] In that time frame, because you're going to close at 1 o'clock, and you'll get them done, and then, even if you don't close at 1 o'clock, you don't have to, but you just tell yourself that you will, if you then don't close at 1 o'clock, and you say, well, now I have an extra 4 hours in my day, what can you do with those extra 4 hours that your brain wasn't actually planning on having? [00:13:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:03] Sarah: So you can trick your brain, but you really, you have to do a little bit extra to like trick your brain. Because if you go, "Oh yeah, but I'm not actually closing at one o'clock. I'm going to be here until five anyway." Then your brain will give you until five o'clock to get all of your crap done. [00:13:16] But if you're like, "I am closing at one o'clock, I am stopping at one o'clock and that's it." No exceptions. Then all of a sudden you work in the capacity that you have, you get all of your stuff done, and now you have some extra time in your day. And you might then decide to reinvest that time back into the business and go, "Oh, you know what? I think I'll go take a quick lunch. Maybe I'll go take a quick break. Maybe I'll take an hour break. Maybe I'll take a two hour lunch." I don't know. And then if you want to come back, you can always come back. It's your business. You can do whatever you want, but you have to actually trick your brain into, hey, "I need to get everything done by one o'clock or 12 o'clock or two o'clock or whatever time, pick a time, close early and get everything done by then." [00:13:55] And then all of a sudden, you will be a lot more efficient that way. And you'll prioritize the things that need to be done because a lot of the things that you're doing, They don't actually need to be done.  [00:14:06] Jason: So this concept is Parkinson's law, right? Is the idea that the more time you get for something, the more time it's going to take. [00:14:14] And so things will just always fill up whatever container you make available. Related to that, because work expands to fill the time that's available for its completion, things become harder. The more time you allow. And so sometimes by collapsing the amount of time available and having deadlines or having requirements. [00:14:36] And this is one of, I think the brilliant pieces of our planning system, DoorGrow OS, by collapsing the time allotted in order to achieve something, people actually like work more efficiently and it's less hard to accomplish and they get more innovative And they start like looking for all these other alternatives and options and whatever and they do what's most effective. [00:14:58] And so we've seen this with team members like they might spend way too much time on something if we just say this is when we need it's like we need this by next week and They we could give them a month And they would take an entire month and spend a ton of time and more time doing it. And that doesn't mean it's more effective or that we're getting a better result necessarily. [00:15:17] So, same thing for you. Like set a cutoff. I'm done with work at this time. I'm going to take a break at this time. I'm going to take a vacation at this time. And then you will find that things become more and more effective. So Parkinson's law. Cool.  [00:15:32] Sarah: If a vacation seems crazy to you, schedule one. [00:15:36] Yeah. That's exactly when you need one. When you go, "I just don't think there's any chance that I could be taken away from the business. Like I can't take away from my team or I am the team. I don't even have a team yet. Like everything is on me and there's no possible way that I can do it." [00:15:52] That is exactly when you need to do it. So just do it.  [00:15:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:56] Sarah: Do it. Book it. You have to. Otherwise this is your life forever. This is what you want. Do you want to be stuck? Doing all of this stuff every day, all day, burned out, exhausted, tired, miserable? No, so you have to get out of that. And sometimes to get out of that, we have to physically remove ourself from the situation because I know you guys out there, you'll go, "Oh yeah, I'll take a break." [00:16:20] And then you'll bring your cell phone with you and you'll be doing stuff anyway. Actually take a break and remove yourself.  [00:16:28] Jason: So at one of our DoorGrow Live events, we have brought in an expert trainer that trains pro athletes for the San Antonio Spurs and some other pro teams that are around Texas. [00:16:41] And she talked about how is part of their training mechanism and what she coaches on and supports them in recovery is a big part of that piece. It's a big piece of all of that. And if you don't have recovery, then you're going to have more injury. You're not going to perform as well. And so she talked about how the recovery piece is usually this most neglected piece because they're super driven. [00:17:05] And a lot of entrepreneurs, you're high D in a DISC assessment. Like you're very driven. You want to like get things done. You're motivated, but you may not be giving yourself the recovery you need to be effective. [00:17:16] During the recovery stage, it's built during those early morning hours where you're sleeping. That's where muscle's built. You do the work and break the muscle and tear the muscle and whatever doing the workouts, but it's built during recovery. And so if you're not giving yourself what you need and setting aside the recovery time, you will inevitably burn out. [00:17:35] So you have to find that balance. So.  [00:17:36] Sarah: And You need to take a break before your body does it for you.  [00:17:40] Jason: Right.  [00:17:41] Sarah: Because that's the other thing, if you've ever noticed that when you're just tired and you're exhausted and you're stressed and you're like, that's usually when all of a sudden you straighten your back or you twist your ankle or you get this weird cold or bronchitis or whatever. [00:17:57] It's because you're not listening to your body. Your body is giving you clues and telling you what it needs. "Hey, I need to eat Hey, I need to sleep. Hey, like I'm not relaxed. There's way too much cortisol in here. What are we doing?" And if we just keep pushing through it will break down And something will happen either a sickness or an illness or an injury And then you have to take a break because it will force you to take a break. [00:18:24] But then the problem with that guys is then we're not taking a break that's fun. We're taking a break because we're sick and injured.  [00:18:31] Jason: Yeah. So we don't get to really enjoy it. Yeah.  [00:18:34] Sarah: So you're not enjoying it now. You're going, "Oh, I feel like crap." Of course you do. So you should choose to take a break before your body chooses it for you.  [00:18:43] Jason: So I think, one of the things I'm noticing is it's really important for entrepreneurs to become attuned to their nervous system. They need to be familiar with how they're feeling and just check in with themselves. And for entrepreneurs, we usually operate at a high stress level and not all stress is bad necessarily, right? [00:18:59] The stress of working out actually gives you more runway and gives you more time, productive time. But we need to make sure that we're paying attention to our nervous system because we'll get preloaded and then we'll get like really like heightened and really anxious. And then to the point where we're exploding at that team members and like freaking out and like we're really heightened and we might then some entrepreneurs will get to the point where they're having panic attacks and they're not sleeping at night and they're having. [00:19:25] Heart palpitations, right? And so we need to make sure we are honoring the body and our body will give us clues, nervous system. So go take a walk, take a breather, take a vacation, take a break, but start listening to your nervous system. What's it telling you right now that you need right now? Maybe you need to take care of your body. [00:19:41] So, all right. Anything else?  [00:19:43] Sarah: I think if you need to take a break, then take a break and you can take a mini break. You can do that. So just get up and walk around the office. Even if you pace around the office. We have a couple of clients who do that. Like Yair every, I think it's four o'clock every day, he plays the Rocky theme in his office. And then he does like pushups and like burpees and like jumping jacks and lunges and stuff. Now you don't necessarily have to do all of that, but Schedule it throughout the day, put it right on your calendar, and then every so often get up and go walk around, even if it's just walking around your office. [00:20:23] Rest your eyes, close your eyes for a few minutes, look away from your screen. Don't take a break from your screen by looking at your cell phone. That's another screen. That's not a break. Then your eyes are strained all day long. So actually look at something that's not a screen, rest your eyes or close your eyes or do some eye squeezes. [00:20:40] You can meditate, you can listen to some music, you can start to read a book. And even if it's only for a few minutes throughout the day, that few minutes is going to help rejuvenate your body. So then you're not just feeling like you're constantly drained. And when you need a longer break, take a longer break, even though it might seem impossible. [00:21:02] That's exactly when you need to do it.  [00:21:04] Jason: Okay, cool. So there's a cool app that I used for a while called Rise Sleep and it shows your circadian rhythm and there's usually a big spike in the morning where you ramp up and then it dips down in the afternoon and then you get a littler spike in the in the evening and where you get a another boost. [00:21:24] But that lull in the afternoon, that dip can be pretty severe if we're not taking care of our health. And you can be really fatigued. And so that's a great time to maybe go for a walk or take a break or do something to wake yourself up or go do a workout or something like that. So, all right, well, hopefully this was a helpful and effective for you to honor your nervous system. [00:21:44] Get some breaks in. towards burnout. We know that if you're not burning yourself out, you're going to be a lot more productive, a lot more effective, and we can help you grow your business a lot faster. And if you'd like to learn how to get your business growing faster, how to lower your stress levels and make the business a calm workplace, and get more effective and efficient team members, get better systems in place, this is what we do at DoorGrow. We're able to help grow companies dramatically, and we would love to help and support you. So reach out to us and talk to our team and let's get you going. So until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:22:17] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:22:44] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas. We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation. What we addressed in this conversation: How Naully got interested and started with AI The ethical and legal considerations of AI How AI enables us to work smarter not harder Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end) How Naully sees the future of AI and work and much more... --- Ep 187 whole episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T. engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology. So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations. Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va? Naully: I'm fine, and you? Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we? Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful. Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that. But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st. And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age? Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet. So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI. And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now. Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it? I Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right? Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So, Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go. And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now. In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing. So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business? Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never. Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have. And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow. For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R. Sarah: mm-hmm . Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair. Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools. Sarah: It Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools. Or this is the user, [00:13:00] Sarah: right? Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer, Sarah: right? Naully: So, Sarah: so the Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction. And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what? Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework. In the use of AI, Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not. In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still. Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm. So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well, Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world. It's the world of justice. Sarah: I think Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal. So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI. But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle. And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder? Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because. Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that. AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months. And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it. And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas. Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you. And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell. Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together? But Naully: tell us more Sarah: about it. Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly. And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project. So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say. Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted. Sarah: So, Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted. Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2. For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI. So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way. So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information. Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right? To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now. So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development? Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology. [00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year. Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path. It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides. Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app. So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings. Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it. And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast. So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that. Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang. Sarah: Mm. Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two. Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia. Sarah: Right. Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so. Sarah: A little mix. A little mix. Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy. Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So, Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans. Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there. Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm. Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different, Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working. Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane. In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So, Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't. Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not. So, yeah, Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27. Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Are you a property manager? Do you hire property managers? Can you answer the question: what is a property manager, and what do they do? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss what a property manager is and what they should be doing in a property management business. You'll Learn [01:14] Million-dollar question: What does a property manager do? [06:25] Siloing information to protect your business [10:26] Hiring specialists instead of people who can “do it all” [12:20] What should a property manager's role be? [16:31] Property managers as client success experts Tweetables “There's a lot of confusion as to the definition of a property manager in the property management industry.” “When your company grows, what we're going to hopefully have you do is shift into specialists, so that you won't have a property manager that just does everything.” “Effectively cloning yourself or duplicating yourself in the business usually means getting 10 people, not one.” “It's not hard to be exceptional in property management.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Business owners, we need to stop trying to find people that can do everything. We need to find people that are really good specialists.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:28] DoorGrow Property Managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:56] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the B. S. build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] All right. So one of the things that's come up, we just did a DoorGrow boardroom event. [00:01:18] And one of our clients that was there was like, "I need to hire a property manager." And we're like, "okay." And what we noticed in talking there and going deeper and digging in deeper is that there's a lot of confusion as to the definition of a property manager in the property management industry. [00:01:37] Sarah: Yeah, it's like a catch all.  [00:01:39] Jason: So the challenge is it can mean just about anything.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Yeah. The definition of property manager is: "do anything and everything that the company needs."  [00:01:49] Jason: And so I've noticed this for a while. we've had a lot of clients and they'll say, "Oh, I need another property manager," or "I need to hire a property manager." [00:01:56] "I need to get a property manager." And it always means something different. So like some people think a property manager does everything, and this is the portfolio style property manager. They're like, "they need to go get business." And so they're a BDM, they need to handle and do some of the bookkeeping accounting stuff. [00:02:17] They need to do maintenance coordination. They need to do the leasing. So they're trying to find somebody that's basically an entrepreneur. They can do everything that's probably going to run away and steal half their business. Right. Which happens. It's happened quite a bit. I've seen it. And that's, I think the wrong way to build a property management business, it's the wrong way to hire and build your team. [00:02:36] So let's figure out. What is a property manager? What is it?  [00:02:41] Sarah: Love it.  [00:02:41] Jason: What are your thoughts?  [00:02:42] Sarah: Well, so I think that there's an important distinction, especially when it comes to the size of your company. So in the beginning, When it's just you do everything. It's all you, you, and then you some more. [00:02:58] And I think this is why then when they go to hire a property manager, they're like, "Oh, well I did everything and I want to replace myself. So I need a property manager to replace myself and then they're going to do everything because I did everything." So in the beginning. When you are in the day to day and it's just you and you haven't built a team yet and you're functioning as the property manager because you're in the day to day and the tactical work, yes, you are technically a property manager. [00:03:26] And then when your company grows, what we're going to hopefully have you do is shift into specialists. so that you won't have a property manager that just does everything. You'll have people who are really good at the one thing that they do and will be able to then segment the business and split that out into multiple roles instead of just having a property manager that does everything. [00:03:56] Everything. Yeah. So I created a Facebook post, cause  [00:04:00] There was some heat on that post. Well, I like this. I don't know if you read the comments.  [00:04:03] Jason: I like to stir the pot a little bit. For those that are watching this on video, this is what it looks like, right? So join our Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub. com, get in there. So I said, if the property manager role on your team is not your maintenance coordinator, operator, bookkeeper, leasing agent, then what is their role? And so people are like "define operator, like what's an operator?" So then I was defining what an operator was, but Michelle Miller, shout out to Michelle, she commented. She said, "in other words, if they aren't doing everything, what are they doing?" Right. Brian Nelson said "delegator." And I like that. That's I think  [00:04:39] Sarah: I don't like  [00:04:40] Jason: that.  [00:04:40] I like the idea that they are not the person that's doing all this stuff. Maybe they're orchestrating, maybe that's what they're doing. [00:04:47] They're maintaining the relationship with the owner. Sean Foster, he says "PM's number 1 job is to be the middleman between the owner and the tenant advising and the correct path of the most profitable investment." [00:04:56] And "but that one responsibility branches off into another 20, doesn't it?" [00:05:00] And then, "depends on the systems." There's a little dialogue going back and forth there. So if you do property management, you manage the property. And to manage the property, you're doing leasing, maintenance, inspections, all this stuff. But that doesn't mean that the property manager in your business is doing all this stuff or should be. [00:05:17] Usually you don't want somebody that's a jack of all trades and a master of none trying to do stuff. And if they're actually good at everything, they'll probably just go start their own business. And I think that's the other challenges that we often mistakenly fall into this clone myth. And this was what was going on with our client at the DoorGrow boardroom event. [00:05:35] He thought, he's like, well, "I was a property manager at another company for a while. Now, I have my own business and I'm doing all everything and I need to go hire a property manager and I was doing everything at that company. I'm doing everything in my own company. Now, I need to go find somebody else to do everything." [00:05:50] And when we finally identified this. I call it the clone myth. We think, "I just need to go find somebody just like me. I need to clone myself." Effectively cloning yourself or duplicating yourself in the business usually means getting 10 people, not one. Like 10 different hats, 10 different specialists in the business. [00:06:07] And so just want to address the clone myth real quick. So I think we want to find a way, I think in the industry, it might make sense to eliminate the term property manager. If they're not actually the one doing all of the little pieces, unless you're portfolio style. So what are your thoughts on that? [00:06:25] Sarah: Well, I think the other thing too, that I want to bring up about him at the boardroom event is he's like, "I need a property manager and they're going to do everything. And I do everything. And I also did everything at my other company when I worked for them as a property manager. So I need one. How do I make sure that they don't just steal my business and steal my clients and walk away though, because they're going to be doing everything? [00:06:48] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:48] Sarah: And that's a really good reason to not have them doing everything.  [00:06:52] Jason: Most business owners eventually figure out you need to silo information. So for example, when I ran a web design agency, I had an intranet where all the information was stored and I had how I sold, how I found clients, like all this was built out in the intranet. [00:07:07] All the sales related stuff. And then I had all of how we build the websites, how we put them together, all this kind of stuff. And I would hire web designers to build the websites and to do work and they would get access to the intranet. They would read the sales stuff and then figure out how to get their own clients and then they would quit. [00:07:25] I kept having them leave and they're like, "Oh, well, I've got so much business. I don't have time to do your projects now." And I was like, "what?" it happened over and over again. So I was like, "okay, something's going on here." So then I realized I needed to segment the information because the stuff that I figured out was pretty effective and pretty valuable. [00:07:40] Sarah: And essentially you were paying them to train them to then run their own business and not work for you anymore.  [00:07:47] Jason: What a deal. So, okay. Yeah. So then I started siloing that information. And so I think I think I shared a TikTok or a reel or something with you where a guy was talking about siloing the information and he was talking about sales and manufacturing and a product business. [00:08:02] And if they know where to source all the manufacturing stuff and they know how to acquire business, they don't need you anymore. So he had to segregate that information. I was like, that's the same thing. You need to segregate knowledge in your business. Your goal is to hire specialists on the team, not generalists that can wear multiple hats. [00:08:22] You're the business owner. You have to wear every hat in the business that is not currently worn by somebody or is not being done properly. You have to step in. It all falls on you. That's the job of the CEO, right? You have to do it. If you have a good operator, then they step in and some of that stuff, too. [00:08:40] You have to do stuff that's uncomfortable.  [00:08:43] Sarah: Well, let's just pause for a moment. Your operator is not going to do your day to day stuff in property management.  [00:08:47] Jason: They shouldn't do your day to day stuff. It sounded like. A lot of people get confused.  [00:08:50] Sarah: I know what you were trying to say, but people are going to hear that and go, "Oh yeah. And then my operator is going to do everything."  [00:08:55] Jason: I just wanted to include you. I didn't want to say you don't do the hard stuff too.  [00:08:59] Sarah: I do the hard stuff when I have to.  [00:09:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:01] Sarah: Until we can hire somebody else to do it. Because I hate doing it. I hate certain parts though, then we hire somebody and they do it much better. [00:09:11] Jason: Yeah. So I think it might make sense unless you're portfolio style, which I'm not a real big fan of. I think there's a lot of downsides to portfolio style management. I think it's really rare that people are good at everything. And so I think it's a lot more effective to get somebody that's a really great maintenance coordinator that can handle maintenance for probably thousands of units, right? [00:09:32] If they really know their stuff and have the right systems and tools and you can take that off of your property manager's plates. You need probably accounting or bookkeeping or a team that helps with that kind of stuff. There's vendors that can help with some of those pieces, especially if you don't enjoy, or aren't good at that piece, there's a lot of available resources, but if you get specialists that are really good, they will surpass your ability in that particular category. [00:10:00] Sarah is much better running the planning system that we have DoorGrow OS, running the operations of the business than me, I just like, when I was doing it between having operators I just stopped planning. I didn't want to do the meetings. It was, "anybody stuck? Let's move on. And now it's meticulous and it's detail and we're moving forward. [00:10:19] And everything's focused and we're hitting all our goals and we're making progress. Right? Because I have a good operator. So I think the business owners, we need to stop trying to find people that can do everything. We need to find people that are really good at specialists. So, I met with this entrepreneur a while back named Joe Abraham. [00:10:39] He gave this cool Ted talk that I liked and I checked out his book and I took his online quiz and he has a book called entrepreneurial DNA and he created this score similar to an assessment like this, but it's BOSI. B O S I. And it talks about the four different types of entrepreneurs, which are builders, opportunists, innovators, and specialists. [00:11:01] And you need to figure out what you are, the book talks about, and then build the right team around you. So, historically, I was more of a specialist, which means I'm dedicated my craft for over a decade to coaching and supporting property managers, right? And like figuring out how to grow businesses and then I'm an innovator. [00:11:17] I like to take in lots of ideas and formulate new ideas and create stuff and that sort of thing. So more of a specialist, innovator and specialist, and most of the coaches and mentors I've hired have been builders. Builder, innovators, stuff like that opportunists are always looking for the next way to make money or the next vehicle or this sort of thing. [00:11:38] Think like Ray Kroc, who took the McDonald's brothers', intellectual property, because they were innovators and specialist, and he blew it up and he was a builder and an opportunist so, opportunists make great salespeople. For example, builders make good CEOs. And so I wanted to be a better CEO. [00:11:56] And so I've worked with a lot of coaches to become more and more of a builder to develop that skill set. And I'm getting better. Better and better. So, so I think we need to as entrepreneurs figure out what are our strengths and then what are we lacking? If you need to get around maybe coaches that can help you with with some of the gaps that you have in your own personality or your own knowledge base, then that can help you get to the next level. [00:12:20] All right, so I think if we could eliminate the property manager term from those that are not portfolio style, then what would a property manager that people typically think is a property manager do if they're not the maintenance coordinator, they're not all these things What do you think?  [00:12:34] Sarah: Yeah, I think you can still call them a property manager. [00:12:37] I'm not against the term like you're like, "eliminate! Anti property manager term and industry!" I just don't think that's going to happen Okay. I do think though once your business grows and gets large enough you can have one person or team to do the maintenance coordination, and then that piece is handled by the maintenance team. [00:12:58] Then you can offload the leasing part, right? They're going through, maybe doing showings if you still do those, or at least going through applications and moving people along doing the move ins. Dealing with move outs and starting that whole process, kicking that off. You might have a leasing person, or a leasing team, and then the accounting piece, like your property manager probably should not be doing accounting. [00:13:20] You should have somebody who is really good at accounting to do the accounting. And if that means you need to have a service, do it for you. That's fine. Just make sure that they're a really good reputable service. And there's someone that can hopefully like triple tie out your books and make sure everything is correct. [00:13:36] And then you, here's the big thing, you still have to monitor it. Don't just hand it off and say, here, please go do this thing. And then just sit back and never look at it and hope that it's right. Because I've seen that a lot where people go, Oh, like I haven't done the bookkeeping. I have somebody else do it. [00:13:52] And then they start investigating because there's a one little issue and they start to pull the thread. And it's like, when you pull the thread of the sweater and it just all unravels. Okay, so don't do that. Don't do that. But then your property manager can be more like the person that deals with the relationships of between like clients and tenants. [00:14:13] Right. So we're bridging a gap.  [00:14:15] Jason: So then technically they're more of a relationship manager, right. They're managing relationships. I think a big gap that we don't see a lot of in the property management industry, that's super common in every other industry is the category of client success. And the category of client success, their whole goal is to retain customers to keep customers, make sure that they're happy. [00:14:38] And so I think that's the role that some people might say, "oh, that's the property manager" is they need somebody that's just focused on client success, loves on the clients, takes care of the clients, makes them feel valued. Maybe meets with them annually to make sure that everything's looking good financially. [00:14:53] Sarah: Portfolio review calls.  [00:14:55] Jason: Portfolio reviews. [00:14:56] Sarah: I love those. I will harp about that all day long. If you're not doing them, do them.  [00:15:00] Jason: Yeah. So, client success in a lot of industries. I've heard some of our coaches and mentors describe as your other sales team. Right. You've got those that sell people in, like your business development, your BDs, your business development managers, your BDMs that bring clients into the business, but then they are not responsible for retaining the clients. [00:15:22] And you think you retain clients just by doing maintenance coordination and just by doing leasing, but these things don't really develop or solidify or build the relationship. If you screw those things up, then you're bound to probably lose clients. And so that's the bare minimum.  [00:15:36] Sarah: No one is going, "Oh my God. This leasing team is so amazing. I'm never going to leave." [00:15:41] Jason: Right.  [00:15:41] Sarah: They just expect the leasing to be good because it's what they signed up for when they hired a property manager. Right? They're not going to go, "Oh my God, I can't believe they got this maintenance thing done so so fast. And it was done in two hours and it was amazing. I'm never going to leave." [00:15:57] Jason: So Gallup organization wrote this book called first break all the rules. And then it has this customer satisfaction pyramid. And at the lowest level, there's the lowest two levels are availability and accuracy. So these are the two things that if you're always available and you're always accurate in what you say you're going to do and you do it, people just don't even notice. And so it's not hard to be exceptional in property management. If you do that, it's expected and demanded.  [00:16:24] Sarah: So this is like all the tactical stuff that we do.  [00:16:27] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:27] Sarah: It falls into this.  [00:16:29] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:29] Sarah: It's just expected.  [00:16:31] Jason: So the next level, if you really want to have great client, customer service and great client interactions is partnership and then advice. [00:16:40] And this is where I think a property manager can really add value. This is where they are really a client success role where they're retaining clients. They're improving the relationship and the value that people see in the relationship and in the longevity of staying a client of your particular business, when there's plenty of others that could do it, they can manage their property. [00:17:00] You have team members that are managing the relationship and focusing on client success. So maybe there should be some client success managers in property management and less property managers. As far as terms go.  [00:17:13] Sarah: He's really trying to get rid of that term.  [00:17:15] Jason: I don't know. It's just, it's so ambiguous. [00:17:17] Sarah: That's why. So when we were creating R docs, like all of the job descriptions for different roles, he's like, "I want there to be an R doc for every role in property management business." And I said, "okay, I can create it." Here's the problem. The problem is that if I create one for an assistant, it's going to be different from company to company. If I create one for a property manager, there's going to be some similarities, but there's always going to be things that are different from company to company. So there are great templates, right? And it's they're, it's amazing. And then you just delete the things you don't need and add anything you do need from there. There's nothing that's uniform. There's so much that's different from business to business. We all do the same thing. We're all property management entrepreneurs, but the way the ins and outs, the inner workings of our business, there's a million different ways to do it.  [00:18:10] Jason: We did define those Rdocs though. [00:18:12] We have Rdocs for each of the major roles. I think yeah, I think having recognizing that. You need a client success person to maintain the relationship. You need a maintenance coordinator. You need if all these things are segregated and you get really great specialists in each of these areas, then yeah, you're going to have a much stronger lifetime value of your client. [00:18:33] You're going to make a lot more money. So I think that's important. Anything else we should talk about related to property manager?  [00:18:39] Sarah: I think that covers it.  [00:18:40] Jason: All right. So figure out and I'm curious, go ahead and find my post in the DoorGrow club group, or go post or comment in the DoorGrow club community. [00:18:51] I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. What do you feel a property manager is if you don't do portfolio style? What are your property managers doing? How do you define that role? And are they really managing properties? Are they really managing people? Are they really customer success? Are they really supporting and taking care of owners? [00:19:08] Or do you think they're taking care of tenants and like maintaining a relationship there? So, all right, I think that's our interesting conversation for the day for the DoorGrow show and do you want to give them a call to action? That's a good call to action for the end of the show here? [00:19:23] Sarah: Oh, well, we have a few events coming up. So go and check out our events that we have coming up. Don't miss DoorGrow. It's going to be a big one. [00:19:31] This is like our big conference. We do it once a year. It's here in Round Rock, Texas on it's a Friday and Saturday, May 17th and 18th. And our theme this year is creating opportunity from uncertainty. So we have a lot of great topics, a lot of great speakers lined up for you guys. And I've got something special in the works that I haven't really released yet, but It's gonna be really cool because we've never done anything quite like that before  [00:19:57] Jason: Yeah, all right. [00:19:59] Cool. All right. Well on that note Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:20:03] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:30] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

We're talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren't the case, people wouldn't be joining them. Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We'll discuss all of that, in this episode. https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cultSarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization's rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings:Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah, Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.How are, how's the weather in your area? Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah. Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here. Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are. There we are. Yeah. Cliff notes.Katherine: Yes. I remember watching the vow. I don't remember. I think it was in during COVID watching it and [00:07:00] had just left an abusive church. And that was cult cults like they're definitely very high control, very lot of, you know, stuff being hidden by religiosity and God speak and Jesus talk. And I, I, a lot of us.who had left were like, have you seen The Vow? Have you guys been watching The Vow? Are you watching The Vow? Because The Vow is like very, very, very similar to what we just went through. And I think that that was the thing that stood out to me as well as how engaging it was. And it just I was like, that sounds like Christianity, like so much of so much of the, the attraction and the way that like the evangelizing that was happening and the way that people were getting brought into this thing that, that was presented as this very good thing.And in some ways it seemed like it actually was a good thing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that part of [00:08:00] it of like what attracted you to this. And like, what, what drew you in as a very professional human being? Sarah: Yeah. You know what? There's every single group that we've ever talked to anyone about in our podcast.There is always good stuff on the outside. And that's actually one of the first questions we ask people so that others can. See what some of those red flags are of like, you know, what's the catch with this perfect, shiny, amazing, happy community. Well, what, what drew me in was a number of things. And, and partly it was, you know, the age that I was.Where I was, you know, doing this acting work and it wasn't really filling my soul. It wasn't filling my cup in terms of like, this is not the meaningful work that I want to be doing. And the thought of. Cause really they offered a lot of things. The community was presented almost in a way that would appeal to whatever the person wants.And I later learned to do that for others. Like what, what is it that you're looking for? What I was looking for was a, [00:09:00] a community, a supportive, helpful community. I was looking for more meaning and purpose in my life being a, you know, Being in a Budweiser commercial wasn't like really that meaningful to me, even though it paid well, but it was like, this is not what I signed up for or what I wanted as an actor.And I've always been into personal development. I've always believed that. And I still believe actually that you can work on yourself or be, you know, be better or like work through. And there was a term that they used. I don't think I was really using this term before was limiting beliefs. That there's beliefs that we have, and I actually do believe that we have still believe that we have limiting beliefs about ourselves.Like Katherine: something like, I can't do it. Like, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, even as an actor, like even thinking things, thinking something like, which was had at the time, like I always get nervous and auditions, there's some beliefs under that about myself that caused me to be nervous. [00:10:00] Which would limit me about, you know, without, with auditions, cause that's like a big part of being an actor.So I really love the idea of working through my limiting beliefs, being, the best version of myself and, and striving to follow this model. And one of the things that appealed to me, I mean, I didn't like it at the beginning, but I eventually did like it after my first five day training, which is my first foray into Nexium is they offered this growth path in the form of.Like a martial arts system with different levels and stripes and colors and I liked that. Like I, there was something about that that was measurable for me. If I do this, I'll go to the next level and that, that appealed to me because an actor, we don't have that either, like get the job or you don't, you don't really know why you do or you don't, and you could do all the right things, but not actually go to the next level.So I liked the concept of being able to. Complete a task, work on a skill, and, and evolve. It was certainty. With certainty. Yeah, it was [00:11:00] certainty in a very uncertain world. Needless to say, I mean, it was all bullshit, but if it was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great. Katherine: Yeah. And if it is, if it is something that like is actually delivering what it's promising, then it would be a really awesome. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so, so those were some of the good things that drew you in just to create some context for folks what were some of the, like, things that started alarms, that started going off that were like, Hmm, maybe this isn't what it, what it's promising.Sarah: I mean, Honestly, there were, there were red flags right from the beginning, but I didn't know what I was looking at. If I had done, if I, if somebody invited me to something now that was. And with the education I have, I wouldn't have even signed the paperwork, let alone attended because I would have known, Oh, I'm feeling pressured and they're using a scarcity mentality in order to, you know, [00:12:00] like this is the only one.And when, you know, when are you going to do this and when are you going to change your life? And any hesitation I had would be. Proof of how I was not ready to commit to my goals. Like it was a lot of manipulation tactics just getting me there. And then once I was there a lot of red flags in regards to what I now know as setting the stage for future abuse.Even as simple as they said, like, you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to feel like you're going to, you're going to doubt that maybe even this is the right place for you to be. That internal dialogue is an indication of what they call the disintegration. So you're either integrated on a concept or disintegrated and any internal questioning was just a sign that you needed to work on something.I know. So, if you agree to that, which I did. Because I'm, I'm assuming that these people who, I just never, I never projected bad intent because that's the thing is when you give yourself over to a higher power or a higher authority, [00:13:00] you're saying, you know, better than I do. And tell me, tell me what to do.Tell me how to be. And I was, I was like, okay, well, I pay just paid like 20. 2, 100 is 2, 500 Canadian to spend five days in a room and I want to work on my issues. I am saying, I trust you. You got to tell me what you see and if what they're saying is different than how I feel, that's a problem. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that's such a such an easy thing to happen and then it's presented as you're like to listen to someone else tell you and name you and tell you what you need to work on and listen to someone else outside of you is. Is held up as like a humble thing and like a character quality.Yes. And if you were to resist and ask questions or say, I don't feel comfortable with Sarah: this. And that's, Oh, then I'm also being defiant. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or selfish or, or you don't want to work on your issues or you don't really care Sarah: about this. Yeah. I mean, they said that you should be able to ask [00:14:00] questions and put your hand up, but it was very clear when people did ask questions, you know, how they felt about that.And also like it was, I learned very quickly that there were names for the feelings I was having that weren't good. So I was just suppress them. And I want also, I'm a good girl, I want to be a good girl, I want to get it right, I like the gold stars. Yeah. I like the validation. Katherine: Absolutely. And there was a very clear like type of person that fit and you like, learned to Sarah: fit.Yes. I learned to fit and I wanted to get the, I wanted to go up the levels and I wanted to get the next stripe. And I learned to override the feelings because the other thing they said is like, you're here to work on your shit. You're here to work on your stuff. So. Yeah. You know, don't leave. We're just talking about these things.If the sash around your neck, there was a sash systems for the martial arts ranks. If that bothers you, why can't you even talk about it in a room? Like we're just talking about it. So I should be able to talk about it. And so therefore don't leave. If I'm leaving, I'm just running away from my issues.so [00:15:00] many double binds. We call them massive double. Katherine: Yes, literally the phrase that popped into my head. Yes. Well, I, I want folks to be able to hear your whole story. And so I'll just plug your book, which is called scarred. Correct. Sarah: Yes, thank you. And I don't know if you ever do giveaways on your podcast, but we can do that too.Katherine: Let's do it. Why not? Yeah, I haven't done one of those in a long time. Let's do it. And then a little bit culty, and then also the vow on HBO, or not HBO on max. So those are places that folks can get more. About your story and actually get your get your full story and all the details about that.And so I want to step into talking about the impact of this. And if you want to talk about the impact like while you were in it and like what, what this coercive control manipulation was doing to you while you were in it. And then very specifically after after you left, like how was so I'm going to ask you to tell us a little [00:16:00] bit about how you experienced this, this trauma showing up for you and what, what did this experience do to you?And if you want to also share some examples of just similar patterns you've seen in folks that you have been interviewing on your podcast as well. Yeah, just paint us a picture of what happens after this experience. Sarah: After leaving? Yes. I mean, there was many different stages, I would say, like I've been out for six years and there was a lot of just grief, like I was, I had a massive PTSD reaction or potentially CPTSD just from the sort of ongoing abuse, but I, in many ways, I was like kind of the, one of the least Can I swear on this podcast?I was one of the least fucked with because, because I was a recruiter and I brought so many people in many ways, they kind of left me alone. I, I had, I was in Vancouver. I was running, I had been running my center. Which is sort of like a. You know, a separate, like, it's sort of like a franchise. Like I had my, I had [00:17:00] my center and I was using the tools and the parts of the program that were good and that I liked.And I, you know, brought people in that were going up the pipeline to the leadership. So they kind of left me alone, but I, so I didn't have the same amount of. 100 percent commitment. Like I'd never moved to Albany. I'd never moved and given up my whole life. And I always had my foot in reality. In other words, like my foot outside of the compound, it wasn't an actual compound, but some people gave up everything to be there, you know?And so that kept me in many ways, it protected me and gave me a soft place to land. There's a lot of people I could go to and that I always knew that we. Were you know, people thought that we were in a cult. I, I knew that. And I, and I thought that they just didn't understand. Mm-Hmm. , right. I just, I was like, oh, they don't get it.And for, for the first couple of weeks. And, you know, I was just going through those people and being like, okay, you were right. And I'm sorry. And I'm really kind of fucked up right [00:18:00] now. Shouting from the rooftop and like doing all the stuff that we did to get the media attention and things like that so there was like different stages of first I was on this yeah rampage of like I got to take this thing down and I felt like I was one of the There's a few of us that were at the forefront of that and I think in many ways It was the ones that of us that could whereas other people were so had been so head fucked and so gaslit and so manipulated that they were like, you know, literally in bed depressed Couldn't move or, or just had to shut down and like pretend it never happened and move cities and like not even deal with it, which people dealt with it in different ways.My dealing with it was because I've been so public and so such a vouching you know, zealot. I was like a fundamentalist personal growth junkie. Yeah. This is the way, this is the only way, red flag, to person to, you know, to grow and to reach enlightenment or whatever. Like. And so then on the other side, I had to be just as loud.So that was like one big stage, and I spent [00:19:00] like a long time just on the phone with people, trying to de enroll them, trying to explain like, yes, I was branded, and no, I didn't consent, and no, I didn't know it was Keith's initials, and like, trying to show them that it was bad. And for the people who are real diehards, there's some people who still don't think that was bad.Because they've, they've so committed their lives to this path. They're so bought in and to look now and go like, Oh, maybe this isn't good is just too hard for them. Like they're just, yeah, it's Katherine: just too much given to it and it's Sarah: just, yeah, it's easier to go. No, this was good. You know, Keith may have. I've heard them say you know, this is, maybe he's not conventional, but he always, he's a good person.Like they, they can't even fathom that maybe he's a bad person. So. That was one of the stages also was like just reallycoming to terms with like I lost so many of my of my good friends and I and I and I lost them [00:20:00] quickly. I lost them overnight. So that was a big part of it. Like leaving my community again because I had some community and friends outside of it. I think that was partly what saved me. I, you know, I hadn't burnt all my bridges, I'd burnt many bridges, for sure, but not all of them.Thankfully there were some friendships I never touched, I never tried to recruit, even though I did try to recruit many people. So I'd say all of, you know, that was a big stage. And then and then I got pregnant. I got pregnant with my second child a couple years after we got out as I was writing a book.And that was, I was, I was really working through and like having a big catharsis with that process. And having to also say no to, like, I was at that time I was going to do a Tedx talk and I was going to do a bunch of things. I was like, that's gonna be too stressful. And I want to like create a safe, loving incubator for my baby.And that kind of forced me to block out a lot of the stuff that I've been doing. There was like a sort of an ongoing campaign still to [00:21:00] expose and destroy and I mean, by say destroy, like, Make sure that nobody else was recruited into NXIVM and those things happen. Like NXIVM itself does no longer exist.There's no company. Are there people who still believe Keith is good? Yes. So I, that's part of the reason why I'm still talking because I want to get everybody out. . And then, and then, and then I'd say that like, I'm most, I think it's a lifelong healing journey, but there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that have really propelled me to another level of healing and yeah, having kids being kind of forced to stay present and not be in that war, that campaign pulled me to another stage.And then there's just lots of things I do for self care that I wasn't kind of, I wasn't allowed to do. It just wasn't a lot of time for it. Purpose probably. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And just like family time and being able to change my schedule and do things like You know, go to the farmer's markets on the [00:22:00] weekend and the old days when in the cult days that like there was never a free weekend, there was never every weekend if there was a free weekend where there wasn't a training and be like, Who should we fly out from the mothership to like, do a coach summit or, you know, oh, there's nothing happening.Let's organize a, you know, nationwide or citywide barbecue and like, it'll be a great enrollment opportunity. Like every weekend there was something going on with the You know, with my center and you know, three nights a week as well, Monday and Wednesday. And anyways, it was like always just go, go, go, go, go.So to be able to get my, you know, reclaim my time and, and like clear my schedule, which I think anyone is in any kind of group doesn't realize until they get out of something and they clear their schedule. They're like, wow, there's so much time devoted to this thing. Right. Katherine: Absolutely. And then probably like a reward for that time commitment is always more and always more and always pushing and, and, and to some extent that's just like wired into our our society.So when we get into a group that's like that, that just [00:23:00] feels so, so normal. It's like, that's just what you do in this group. I remember being in the, the abusive church and like. It was going through a lot and a lot of people were leaving and there would be these like events that we would have every year.And there were a few times where we were like looking around and we're like, we've lost staff. We are exhausted. Can we just not do this event? Can we just Not do this this year, because we're so tired and the leadership was like, it was always like, you know, PR move like no we have to pretend like everything is fine and you have to present like a united front to the, to the, you know, congregation and like having to like, you know, just kind of power through these events, and there wasn't this like posture of like what's best.For you and care. I mean, like want to like intentionally care for this community. That idea of like, no, we know what's best for you and we know what's best. And this is what what's best looks like and always moving and always pushing. [00:24:00] And yeah, just that, that's that environment that I think so many people can relate with, even like a work culture, you know, like, just like.Work cultures can be like that too. And I think it's safe for us to say, well, then that's an unhealthy work culture. We're allowed to say that, like, we don't have to just say, this is just normal. This is just the way it is. Like, no, we can say that's toxic. Like that's not a, not a helpful environment. Did you have any else thing else you wanted to say just about Impact on you, the CPTSD, PTSD, like how is that showing up for you? Sarah: Yeah, I mean, again, different stages. There was a time at the beginning where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost a ton of weight. I was just like, I was, Nippy called it sniper mode.We were just so hypervigilant. Yeah. I didn't know if we were being, you know, like, you know, spied on, if they were coming to get us. We just, yeah, we were a mess. That didn't last too, too long in the scheme of things, but I'm still a little [00:25:00] jumpy. Yeah. Like if, you know, it's so funny. I just said that my husband just made a loud nose in the kitchen and I was like, what was that?Like, you know, I've been broken into. So, you know, things like that. My trust in humanity is definitely restored. Like, it's amazing how, when we stepped away from that. That world, all these incredible people sort of showed up and you'd think maybe I wouldn't trust them right away. But I was like, I, I felt the difference to like a good versus, I wouldn't say bad person, but like, you know, I just, some, some angels showed up and kind of swooped us up and took really good care of us, especially the people that made the vow.Like that was a really wonderful experience and that impact of doing the vow. You know, that could have, that could have gone so many different ways. Like that could have, that could have been a shit show for us. And it wasn't. And like you said, you're, you and your friends were listening and watching going, have you seen the vow?I can tell you, I still get messages from people in all different groups and relationships, mostly things like different [00:26:00] religious offshoots or like particularly closed communities or like the Jehovah's witnesses, a ton of Mormons message, the Mormons especially were like, Oh my goodness, we were in lockdown watching tiger King.And then we were watching the vow and they're like, Holy shit, we're, you know, in a really not good situation. So that, that continues to be very rewarding for me. And, you know, I think that if had there not been so many silver linings from this experience. You know, I don't know if I would have like recovered like I, it was, it was such a, I didn't mention this before the betrayal, the betrayal wound is one of my, one of the things in my, my therapist, I call it therapist Dan Shaw helped me with and who's a, who's a narcissist expert really helped me see is that when you're people that you trust betray you on that level, it can be a wound that is, takes a while to heal.And these were like. People I considered family who knew what Keith was up to and they were lying to us. And that's something that I never, you know, [00:27:00] and I always say we underestimated people's capacity to lie. We just totally took things at face value. Oh, Keith is celibate. Oh, okay, cool. He doesn't need sex.Great. What are all these women around him? Oh, that's part of his team. Like, okay. mean, it's so obvious and I feel probably like I was very naive. Now, but, Katherine: and, yeah, I'm a trusting person, go into relationships thinking, oh, they're lying to me. Yeah. Most Sarah: people don't. Yeah. But I do, what I do know now, and I see in almost every group, there's some term for it, which is basically like in a group like ours and every, every group we've looked at, there's this sort of.Belief that it's okay to lie for the greater good, and it's okay to lie to protect the leader. Or, you know, for, there's some other greater reason it's okay to say, you know, no, we're not doing X, Y, and Z if it means to, to print like. The big picture. It's okay. The ends justify the means. Katherine: Yeah, that ends justify the mean things.Means [00:28:00] thing. You said that people came in like as you were leaving and kind of supported you and you said it felt different. Can you describe what that different feeling was? I mean, there was just no manipulation. Like I remember once having a conversation with, it wasn't even my therapist, just somebody who's a, who was a family friend who was a therapist. And I had shared briefly sort of what had happened and his first response was, wow, that sounds like.Sarah: That sounds really horrible. It sounds really hard. Mm-Hmm. And, and then I was like, whoa. Because in nex Im, if I shared, shared something that bad that had happened, the an the question would be, you know, well, how did you cause that? Mm-Hmm. , and you know, what, you know, or, or, or, how did you author that? Or, what's your responsibility in it?Mm-Hmm. . Or what's missing in you that you felt like you needed to create that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all that kind of bullshit was, really upsetting. Katherine: It sounds like they believed Sarah: [00:29:00] you. Yeah, they believed me. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And also, I had a lot of moments like that where I was like, whoa.That other way was actually really bad. And I had no idea how toxic it was until I was No longer dealt with that way. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And in the church world, it's called the, the, the reverse of that is like, well, what's your responsibility or, you know, why don't you give, or you're being bitter or you're angry or whatever.And then, and then they'll call that accountability and character development and, and it's framed as this like good thing. When it's just. Invalidation and bypassing. Sarah: Yeah, I definitely see that in almost every religion is that people are shamed into like to not express a concern because then they're then they're complaining or they're stinking thinking or it's negative or whatever.So they learn to not say it so there's no there's no place to bring forward a concern. And that's a that's a really that's a [00:30:00] really, you know, great protective mechanism for somebody who's a. Cult a hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, or somebody who's just being a, you know wants to abuse power or do bad things if there's no place for the people around them to, to question it or say, you know, is this good or is this bad?Then that's, that makes the, the clo we call it the closed loop system, right? Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And all of the accountability is like outward towards everyone else, but then that like, yeah. Leader or leadership doesn't, it doesn't, they don't play by the same rules, Sarah: like, right. Well, that, and that was something also that I saw as a consistent thing is that all of the dogma and, and, you know, there's like a lot of great truth to taking responsibility for things that happen in your life and that's, it can be a good thing, but if it's always.It's always your fault. And the other person didn't have any responsibility. Then, and that's, that's something I say all the time. Wait, especially in XM. There's no victims and you create everything in your life. Now, Keith is in jail. And he's the [00:31:00] victim. Like he's the victim of the like, Oh, the FBI plan. Oh, the FBI must have planted evidence.Oh, but, but Keith, how did you cause this? How did you get yourself into jail? Like, where is that? Where is it now? Where is it now? You know, and that, that's, that's such a huge inconsistency and inconsistencies are something that if you, you know, you bring up then you're. Not trusting the process or in the yoga communities, like you have resistance.What's with your resistance? Katherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Like the inconsistency thing in the as a, as a red flag is, is something that's It seems to happen a lot. And these groups, there's a, there's a double standard where there's between two different people or it's between the leadership and everyone else or whatever.That double standard inconsistency is definitely something that pops up I would love to hear from you just a little bit about. Recovery has been like, [00:32:00] and what are things that have helped you? Sarah: Again, different stages. I think the biggest part of my recovery at first was just talking about it and being with other X members and being able to speak freely without the shackles of the language constraints to be able to say, Oh, Oh, remember that time when so and so did this.That was a really mean thing to do. We never could have talked that way because that would have been. You know, breaking rank and, you know, all sorts of rules, broken images, expressing that way. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was. I couldn't go up line in my, in the authoritarian, you know, thing because they didn't get in trouble.And if I went down, that's bad leadership. So I was kind of like, you know, hogtied. I could talk to my husband, which is, I think, kind of a rare situation. And most people in my situation, we just couldn't talk to anybody. And also Mark Vicente, who was the person who brought me in. If you've seen The Vow, he's the director that.That brought me in, but also got me out. So speaking about it, and then you know, Reclaiming my time educating [00:33:00] myself. I did a lot of watching of other documentaries and podcasts and movies and all sorts of things that really helped me connect the dots. And I have notes from my early days of watching movies like going clear and Scientology or holy hell about Buddhafield and just seeing.Like, holy shit. This is the, it's, it's the exact same. Like really even in our podcast, every time we interview someone, it's like the, it's the exact same template. Yeah. I mean, some of the content, yeah, some of the content points. It always the same school and learned. We did the same school, even like with holy hell, the leaders doing this, forced ballet classes and with us it was volleyball.But it's the same kind of like obsession with this one thing. Physical, yeah. Just yes. And like, you got to get this thing right, but the performance and the adulation of the leader and all that stuff. So that was really helpful. And then there's a lot of things that I've done, I guess. So therapy wise at different stages, having an actual cult therapist was really helpful for me.And I saved a lot of time there because not only did he understand the dynamics, but he actually already knew [00:34:00] Nexium, which was great. So if I said, well, Nancy did this to me once, or Keith said this to me or whatever, he knew what I was talking about. Having a psychologist that didn't have cult training was laborious, but also really helpful because I would have to explain things that, that I realized, like, as, as explaining it, I was out of deprogramming myself.You know, in one particular moment I was saying to him, Oh, well, in our, in our belief system, we. Believed that needs were like survival based, you know, air, shelter, water, whatever. And anything else was considered a desire and therefore a non integrated fixation. You need to work on like, why did you think you needed this thing to be okay?Love, connection, community, blah, blah, blah. So then he, I remember, cause he didn't know anything about cults and he was like, well, those are needs to survive. But what about needs to thrive? And I was like, Oh, they didn't want us to thrive. And I always thought that the people in Albany who live there look fricking miserable.And I was like, [00:35:00] that's why they were miserable. They weren't allowed to have a career or relationship because then they were, they were shamed into like, that that was just a deficiency based desire. In other words, there's something wrong with you that you're even searching. Like, why do you even need that from the outside world to be complete?So that was you know, an interesting process to have a you know, a cult. A therapist and then a regular therapist, but I think a lot of my therapy came from just talking and educating myself and talking to other survivors. And then there's a whole series of things that I've done and continue to do.Like I'm, I do yoga, but I do like a not culty yoga. Like there's no dogma. There's no education. There's no leader. There's no, it's just more of like a fitness thing. Because that's how I protect myself, like I don't do kundalini or, yeah, like that. I walk a lot, you know, after this podcast, I will walk and, and like, clear my mind.Some like sort of spiritual, somebody, some might say woo woo practices that I do, but there's no It's not, it's not like a [00:36:00] tied to a certain school or program. It's just like a little practice here, a little practice there. I take my green juice. I'm very health oriented. I'm all about like getting good sleep and all the things that we weren't allowed.Like I remember when I started Nexium, I was They would say I have, I would have had an attachment to comfort because I was like, I'm getting my eight hours. And they're like, well, why do you think you need eight hours? And I'm like, well, that's just what, how I function best. And I'm like, why do you think that would if it's a limiting belief?And by the end of it, I was having like four or five hours of sleep a night to prove to them how much sleep I didn't need and how I could be like such a bad ass, you know, but really I do need, like I, I do best on as much sleep as I possibly can get. So prioritizing that and prioritizing what's right for me and not going with somebody else.Going on what somebody else says is right for me has been also huge. A lot of baths. I take Epsom salt baths for my CPTSD almost every night. Putting a lot of money on hot water. I'm sure. Katherine: Hey, it's very sensory and it like, yeah, it's you and [00:37:00] your body. It helps you be present. It's Sarah: yes. Yes. And you could cut this out if you want, but I also microdose psilocybin a fair bit, which also does, does all of those things keeps me, my body has to be present.I don't get, I'm not doing it to hallucinate or get high on mushrooms, but it just helps me not be anxious. Yes. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, those are my main, lots of variety. Yeah. Lots of variety. And oh, and hiking, I like love being in nature and that's like super important to me. I try to get out at least once a week.Katherine: What would you say this is something that like is I think just like a constant question that a lot of folks have and something that I'm, I'm kind of exploring as well is like the difference between having someone help you like a therapist and like that language versus a guru who was like telling you what to do and like, what does it feel like to have that difference.Or what does that difference feel like? [00:38:00] Sarah: Yeah, I'd say that that like a healthy therapist feels like they're on a journey with me and they're just, , questioning and , it's like they're going down in the cave with me. We're both shining lights and we're looking together. Whereas the, the guru approach or, you know, like an axiom, I always felt like there was literally like a.Such a power power difference. Like I'm sitting down here and they would be sitting up there like even the seats were raised and we're kind of looking up at and tell me what to do, like, what do you think and Reclaiming that has been definitely been a huge part of my healing.Katherine: Yeah, so the guru is more like the expert Mm hmm or life telling you how to do it Sarah: And I have to be so careful with that too, because I do love to give people unsolicited advice. You know, especially in our podcast. I do like to be Katherine: like, that's not a good thing. Don't do this. Sarah: And I'm like, you really need to be taking more baths.Okay. I'm just kidding. But I'm like, well, what, how do I try to phrase it now? I was like, this is what's worked [00:39:00] for me. This is what works for me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't care. Katherine: Yeah, no, I like the phraseology. I have to do the same thing. It's like, well, you know, I have that same situation and this is what I try.Yeah. Do with that what you'll exactly. Yeah. And then that would be as opposed to someone who is like, partnering with you in this journey and, and just like being empathetic to the experience rather than telling Yes. That they know better what you need than you do. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I love that.That's great. Any, any final things that you would like to share as we wrap up put all of your information in the show notes, but if you have any information that you want to give folks about how to interact with you, Sarah: I mean, I'd say like if they want to know the full story, my book in combination with the vow, I think is a really good balance because the vow has my story, but also massive gaps in some things that happen.But the vow [00:40:00] has a lot of other people's stories. And if you want to go down an axiom rabbit hole, there's tons of other memoirs out there. But I think that our podcast I've, I've been told is very therapeutic for people of all different groups, religions you know, even abuse situations because you're hearing the stories from different, different people's perspectives that.You're not maybe necessarily as attached to like defending or being protective of your group, whatever that is. So when you hear when other people's stories, you're like, Oh yeah, I relate to that. And it can be, well, it's free. It's free therapy. So not that it's not in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying like, don't do therapy, but it's gonna be a bonus.And I also say, like, there's some episodes that will resonate and some that won't. Just skip them. You don't have, you don't have to listen to all of them. If it's something that that, that is resonant for people, there's a, we're also on Patreon and we do a lot, we do another bonus episode every week.And that's more casual. And we answer questions from the audience. We do voicemails. And we also have a Goodreads account. I recommend a lot of books [00:41:00] and I interview a lot of authors. So all of the books that we love are on our little bit culty Goodreads account. And I think the best way if you want to just reach out to me personally is on my Instagram.I, I answer every message. A little bit culty is a little bit backlogged, but people can check us out there as well. And if they want to be a guest, a little bit culty, they can apply through our website. Oh, the one thing I would say also that's really cool, I think that I did recently is a TEDx talk.I don't know if you had a chance to see it or hear it. Yeah. It's 15 minutes of like the summary of why people need to educate themselves about cults. It's very, it's like a lot. It's like some people call it the best of a little bit culty in a very short period of time. So it's a lot of quick nuggets.Yeah. And I think, I think your community would like it. Katherine: That sounds good. I might reach out to you. I might reach out to you later about that because a couple of years ago I had talked to someone about doing a TEDx talk about spiritual abuse and they kind of discouraged me from [00:42:00] it because it's supposed to be inspirational and it didn't, they're like, Sarah: that's inspirational.Well TEDx actually has some kind of like a little bit quality rules. Like you can't talk about politics or religion. Okay. It's in, it's in their rule book. But. So talking about spiritual abuse, I don't know how you would frame it in a different way. You have to frame it in a different way. Yeah. Go ahead and talk about spiritual bypassing and just not mention religion.Ah, Katherine: yeah, that's true. True, true, true. Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. I'm excited to just see what, see what develops. Thank you for all the work Sarah: that you're doing. My absolute pleasure. It's, it's a total joy to talk about and I will continue to talk about it until everybody is out.So everyone. Yes. Free the slaves. Katherine: Free the slaves.

If you are a property management entrepreneur, you have likely been your own salesperson or BDM at some point. Eventually, every property management business owner will need to hire a salesperson and develop different growth engines. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their BDM Bootcamp event You'll Learn [01:52] What is a BDM? [03:00] Get your BDM Ready for BDM Bootcamp [08:42] You Need a Sales Pipeline! [14:26] Benefits of In-Person Events Tweetables “It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine, and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline.” “Your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one.” “If you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, you're just guessing, and you're just hoping.” “You need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:36] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show. All right. So today we're going to be talking about BDMs.  [00:01:24] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:01:26] Jason: In honor of this event that we have coming up, which is. Going to be super cool. I don't know that there's been anything like this. That's been as cool as this that's existed in the property management space, maybe ever. [00:01:39] There's a lot of people that talk about BDMs, but there's very few that are actually getting BDMs to get great results. And we're going to be hosting a BDM bootcamp. And so Before we go any further, every time I start talking about BDMs, as if everybody knows what it is. I just talked to a guy with, I think, 800 doors the other day. [00:02:00] He's like, "what's a BDM?" I was like, man, okay, I need to make sure I explained this. BDMs are business development managers. Sometimes they're called BDs, business developers and they're salespeople for property management. That's what people will call them, right? Business development can happen in any industry. [00:02:18] But the reason we use the phrase BDM in property management is because property management is closely connected to real estate. And whenever you mentioned sales, people get it confused with real estate brokerage sales type of stuff. And that's why. Now everybody knows what a BDM is, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. [00:02:37] Sarah: Okay.  [00:02:38] Jason: So anyone listening to the show, you better know what a BDM is from now on. That's it.  [00:02:43] Sarah: There's a quiz at the end.  [00:02:44] Jason: What is a BDM? Did you get it right? If not, go back and start this episode over.  [00:02:49] Sarah: Try again.  [00:02:51] Jason: Okay. All right. What do we talk...? Do you want to like tell them about the event? [00:02:56] What do we want to talk about?  [00:02:58] Sarah: Yes. Tell them about the event. So we are launching a BDM bootcamp. So there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs. And there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs and then spending a bunch of money to run ads and get leads and pay for leads and then have the BDM work the leads. [00:03:21] And then if you just want the BDM to close more deals, it's simple. All you have to do is spend more money and buy more leads. Which is really expensive and wildly ineffective. So we have strategies that BDMs use...  [00:03:35] Jason: that actually work  [00:03:37] Sarah: ...that are free, or at least very inexpensive. [00:03:40] You might have to pay for lunch. That's okay. You get something out of it too. And we've decided that we're going to launch a BDM, aka salesperson, boot camp. It's going to be a one day training. And we've never done anything like this before. For those of you that are current clients, there's some trainings on DoorGrow Academy. [00:04:01] We run every wednesday, our growth accelerator calls, but it's hard to amass all of this information that Jason and I have learned about sales over the last, what, 20 something years and put it in a course. Or talk about it on a one hour call. It's darn near impossible, right? So what we wanted to do is we wanted to take some of this information and spend one day going over all of it. [00:04:31] Now, this is very likely going to end up being a series because we can probably talk about sales and strategies and tactics and how to improve your scripts and what to say and like NLP language and filler words and all this good stuff, we can go over this for probably days on end. So what we're doing is this is very likely going to end up being a series, but we're going to launch the first one in April, so for those of you that are watching live, you all have a chance to get in on that for those of you that are watching this recording is will probably be released after the event, but don't fret because  [00:05:11] Jason: you may have missed it.  [00:05:12] Sarah: You might have missed it. Oh, man.  [00:05:15] Jason: Maybe you should get in our Facebook group and pay attention to the live streams. [00:05:19] So you don't miss stuff.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Sometimes we do some cool things that you need to know about right now.  [00:05:23] Jason: The Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub.Com apply. We reject 70 percent of the applicants, which is why the group is good.  [00:05:31] Sarah: Okay.  [00:05:32] Jason: Okay.  [00:05:32] Sarah: Anyway. So that was our shameless plug. All right. No, right. Go ahead. [00:05:36] If you've missed it. Yeah, we don't have a word from ourselves yet. That's a great idea. Who wants to sponsor this podcast? We'll plug you on every episode. Talk to me, baby. So anyway, if you've missed it. Sad for you, but don't fret because there's going to be more of these. This won't be a once and done thing. [00:05:55] So for those of you that are listening now and or hear the information before the event, then this is going to be for you. So here's the information. It will be Thursday, April 11th. So this is also open to anyone on your team who handles sales, meaning it might be you, it might be somebody else. You may have multiple people on the team who handle sales. So if you would like Jason and myself to train your salespeople for a day. This is a really great opportunity for you because that's exactly what we're doing. [00:06:33] So do you want to tell them a little bit about what we're talking about? Or do you want me to do that?  [00:06:38] Jason: I'll go ahead. So we've seen a lot of problems with businesses growing. And so if you, have a BDM or if you are the BDM, you're the business owner, you're the one that closes deals and you are not adding at least a hundred orders a year, hopefully through organic methods instead of wasting a bunch of money on advertising to get cold crappy leads, we're going to give you the strategies, we're going to focus on some different growth engines talking about those. We're going to get into specific pipeline stages because what I often identify is that it's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline, or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages. And not making progress and so we're going to help you identify where the leaks are if you've started building some of these growth engines, you may have started doing things like trying to do realtor referrals and it's not working very well. [00:07:39] You're not getting easily 10 doors a month from that. You might maybe you've heard of our neighbor strategy and you're not getting referrals from that. Maybe you've heard of some other of our strategies, it's not working. And if you haven't heard of these, then you might want to show up, but we're going to talk about the different stages. [00:07:55] We're going to talk about what maybe is affecting things at different stages. This will be very tailored to those that are in attendance. We want to help you move your business forward significantly. And sometimes there's very simple tweaks that could be done at each of these stages that opens the floodgates. [00:08:10] So you have a lot more flow through the pipeline, which means more deals and more money.  [00:08:15] Sarah: Yeah. So back up because you skipped to topic number two, which is cool. We can do two and then one and then three and then four, but that's fine.  [00:08:21] Jason: They're not numbered.  [00:08:22] Sarah: They're not, but they are in order on the document. [00:08:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:25] Sarah: Yeah. [00:08:25] Jason: So Sarah's an operator and everything has to be done a certain way. There is a right way for operators.  [00:08:32] Sarah: There's a right way to do literally every task on the planet.  [00:08:34] Jason: I'm talking to the business owners and they care most about what is interesting or different, but...  [00:08:42] Sarah: yes, and I understand, but your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one. [00:08:50] Jason: That's true.  [00:08:51] Sarah: Or you don't know the stages of a pipeline because a lot of times, and I bet this happens to you too, but it happens to me when I ask people, okay, "what does your sales process look like?" [00:09:00] " Oh, I talked to somebody." "Okay, great. And then what?" "Oh, and then I send them some information." "Great. And then what?" [00:09:05] Jason: "I wait." [00:09:06] Sarah: "Oh, then I wait." "Oh, okay. Like, do you call them again or do you check in or do you like set up another call?"  [00:09:13] Jason: "Or I follow up in a way that I look needy and creepy?"  [00:09:16] Sarah: Sometimes the answer is yes. And then sometimes the answer is no, but even if they do follow up or have another call or check in again, somehow, then my next question again is "okay, and then what?" And then they go, "oh, and then I just wait." So essentially what happens is you have no pipeline. Okay. And you don't know that you don't have a pipeline, but you don't have a pipeline. [00:09:35] And that means if you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, we're just guessing, and we're just hoping. We're going, "I don't know. I keep talking to all these people, but nothing seems to be closing. And I don't understand why," because you don't have pipeline stages. [00:09:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:09:49] Sarah: So you got to need a pipeline.  [00:09:51] Jason: So we'll teach you how to build out the pipeline. We'll talk about the different stages that need to exist. And then it'll be a lot more clear and we'll talk with you about how to build that out in your CRM of choice. So you'll understand the principles. [00:10:04] You can go apply this to whatever CRM you use, whether it's DoorGrow CRM or lead simple or whatever else is out there. Okay, I'll go to number three now that we're back in order. Okay. All right. Number three, [00:10:19] Uncovering your client's pain points. So superficially people think they know the pain of their target audience. So they want their property manager. They don't want to have to deal with managing the rental property. That is not the real pain that gets you to close deals that you have to go a lot deeper than that. [00:10:36] And so we're going to talk about how to disarm people, how to not come across as super salesy, how to create authentic communication and an authentic relationship where they believe that you can help them and how to get them to open up about what the real pain is, the real stress of the real emotion that might be motivating them to have a conversation with you. [00:11:00] And one of the biggest problems we see in sales is that a lot of people don't take time to identify what the real pain is. The pain often has not really anything to do with the rental property. It's something going on in their personal life. And so you need to figure out how to connect to that. [00:11:16] And for some that's like, "Whoa," that's like, "I don't know how to do that. That'd be weird or awkward," but you need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management, right? Just like if you're booking a trip to Hawaii. [00:11:34] Property management is the flight to Hawaii. It's not the paradise. It's not the outcome that they're hoping for. It is property management. So we want to sell the trip. We want to sell Hawaii, not the flight there, right? Which is property management. So we'll talk about also getting towards the, not just the pain, but the pleasure. [00:11:54] Those are the 2 ingredients you really need to know and uncover in order to close the deal. And so if you're not closing deals, it's probably because somebody else is better at that than you. You're one of your competitors, or they're just going to go with the cheapest company because you haven't really created a connection. [00:12:11] And so they think you're a commodity. You do everything everyone else does. And so that we'll get into that. All right. So good?  [00:12:18] Sarah: That was good.  [00:12:19] Jason: Number four, reviewing and improving your call scripts to book more appointments and close more deals. So we want to like, take a look at what are you saying? And you may think, "I don't have scripts. [00:12:30] I'm just awesome. I just wing it every time." I guarantee 90 percent of the time, you're saying similar things, dealing with objections in similar ways. And so you have a script. It just probably isn't a very clearly defined one, which means it's probably not a very good one because you haven't taken an objective look at it to optimize or improve it. [00:12:50] And so we're going to take a look at some scripts that are effective and figure out ways to improve your scripts. And sometimes it's not even about what you're saying. It's about how you say it. And so we're going to focus on some of the magic that comes with how you communicate with people. I've got clients that are not salespeople, like no real training in sales, terrible at sales. And they're crushing it because they know how to be authentic. They are communicating in a way that's disarming and they're just being helpful. And so we're going to talk about some of that stuff. How to close more deals. Some of you that are so good at sales, you're super salesy, you like cut your teeth as a baby in real estate and like you're a shark, like we're going to help you figure out how to undo a lot of that mess so that you can create more trust and sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. [00:13:44] And so we're going to help you close more business, which will make things a lot better. Okay.  [00:13:50] Sarah: That's what we've got. All right. That's our agenda. And if this sounds interesting to you, now, our hope is that once you come to this event, you'll obviously get a lot out of it and learn a lot about sales that we just typically can't cover on a one hour call. [00:14:07] It's just, it's too much. I can talk about 1 of those things for more than an hour. Right? Once you come to this event, you'll learn a lot and you'll be able to immediately implement these things so that very quickly, you will start seeing some changes and some positive results and momentum.  [00:14:24] Jason: So why do this in person? [00:14:26] So let me talk about that. One of the things we've noticed in DoorGrow's, I'm starting to call it the real bubble. And so there's this mentality, I think, unconsciously in our brain. So when we're doing stuff on zoom calls and zoom meetings, which we do a lot of cool stuff that way DoorGrow, but we've noticed that when we get people in person for the first time they meet Sarah and I and realize we're real human beings. [00:14:48] We're not just something on video and that we're real and they can like hug us. And like we touch right? Like then something shifts in their brain that everything else they're saying is real. When they start to meet clients that they've seen on some of the Zoom calls, sharing their wins and talking about crushing it and adding doors. [00:15:07] They're like, "Oh, these are real people." And then the brain shifts and they start to connect that, "Hey, if they're real, and this is real and they're getting real results and they're like me, I'm a human, like I can do this too." And all of this stuff is actually true, impossible. And so we've noticed a shift in clients once they come to DoorGrow live, which is coming up in May, or they come to one of our in person events. [00:15:32] And so we want to do this in person because there's something magical about in person that content and information is absorbed. A lot more easily. There's also that sort of kinesthetic aspect that we're there physically but the learning is a bit more experiential. We'll be able to maybe even role play, go over some scripts, talk, like, say things. [00:15:52] It's just a bit more real than just seeing something on video or watching a video replay or something like that. And so come pierce the real veil with DoorGrow and realize the real magic that exists.  [00:16:03] Sarah: All right. Yes. And at this point you guys might be wondering all right, so this sounds pretty good. [00:16:09] I think I might be interested. What do I do? Contact me. Don't contact anybody else on the team. They're not even going to know what you're talking about. Just contact me so you can get in touch with me. It's Sarah S-A-R-A-H. If you go to our website and you end up talking with somebody else on the team, they will point you in my direction and you can get registered that way. [00:16:29] Now, tickets for this will be 1k per person. You can have as many people on your team attend as you would like. So if you have 3 BDMs and you want to send all 3. If there's just one or two, maybe that you want to send or you want to come check it out yourself, go ahead. But you'll need to let me know now spots are going to be limited. I don't even have 20 spots. I actually need to go back and confirm how many I have left because I know we had some people interested. But the price for this will be 1k per person. And I know that the price will not stay. At that rate. [00:17:03] So we're launching it and we're doing something special with the price. So for now, take us our one case. So get in while the cost is low.  [00:17:12] Jason: There you go. All right. You will easily offset the cost of doing this. For most of you, that's like getting one more deal, right? So lifetime value for most of your clients, probably a lot higher, like maybe 10 times. [00:17:27] Maybe 20 times higher if you can keep them a while, right? So this is a no brainer. This is very easy and we can get your BDM adding a lot more doors. So just like some client results, we've got clients that are easily some BDM are adding 200- 300 doors a year organically without paying for any SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services like APM and they're able to grow and scale their business quickly through organic methods. [00:17:56] Sarah: And we have some clients that turn business away every single month because they just cannot.  [00:18:02] Jason: Get pickier and pickier.  [00:18:03] Sarah: Yeah, they're backlogged. And then they ask us on the calls what do I do? Like, "I don't want to say no, but then I can't take on this many." And we're like, "now you have a waiting list and you can take on X money per month." [00:18:14] And if they can't come on this month or they missed that deadline, then roll them over to the next month. If they qualify.  [00:18:20] Jason: Okay. All right. So that is BDM bootcamp. So check out BDM bootcamp, reach out to sarah@doorgrow.Com. Sarah with an H.  [00:18:28] Sarah: Yeah, if you spell my name wrong, I'm not talking to you cause I won't get it. [00:18:32] Jason: Okay. That's your punishment.  [00:18:34] Wow. Okay.  [00:18:35] Sarah: So don't forget my H because everyone does.  [00:18:38] Jason: Just email me. I'm nicer.  [00:18:40] Sarah: He never checks his email. Don't email him. That's true.  [00:18:42] Jason: My assistant does. Don't do it. All right.  [00:18:44] Sarah: You'll never hear back the black hole.  [00:18:46] Jason: No, my assistant's good. She'll take care of it. I just won't see it. [00:18:51] She'll tell me about it if it's important. All right. For those of you that are wanting to join a community, be part of something awesome, reach out to us. And so you can learn more about DoorGrow Mastermind. You get access to some of the coolest stuff and to be part of the coolest community of the most growth minded property management business owners in the industry. [00:19:11] And we can help you get your business to the next level. So whether it's scaling operations, whether it's figuring out how to grow, whether it's cleaning up the front end of your business, getting your website and your pricing, right, all this kind of stuff. So we can help you. All right. Check us out at doorgrow. com until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Bye for now. [00:19:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Welcome to another episode of the Humane Marketing podcast. In this episode, we delve into the realm of humane video with Lou Bortone, exploring how video content can be a powerful tool for authentic connection and trust-building in today's business world.  Join us as we uncover the core principles of creating videos that resonate on a deeply human level, discover the importance of authenticity in fostering a loyal audience, explore cutting-edge AI tools for video creation, and gain valuable insights into future trends and actionable tips tailored specifically for solopreneurs.  Get ready to be inspired and equipped to use video as a means to stand out authentically and thrive in your business endeavors. In this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points: How Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection The core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level How authenticity builds trust and a loyal audience Tools for video creation, including AI Future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs and much more... --- Transcript 186 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years. business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode at the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And I'm talking to a long time online friend, Lou Bortone. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version [00:03:00] of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, the number one and the word page. And also just a reminder for my non native English speakers, humane is with an E at the end. So it's not human, it's humane. So humane with an E dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. All right, let me tell you a little bit about Lou and from his bio, you will kind of immediately kind of grasp his sense of humor. If Don Vito Corleone, Marty Scorsese and Jerry Seinfeld got together to make an AI baby, you might end up with Lou Bortone. Lu is known as the Video Godfather and is conciliare to some of the brightest names in digital marketing. [00:04:00] He's a video marketing expert, an author, speaker, and host of the Godfather podcast. Prior to becoming a video printer, Lu spent more than 20 years in the television business before being run out of. Hollywood. Lou is also a father to twins, a rescuer of pugs, and an expert at Italian curses. I'll always remember meeting Lou in real life back in, I think it was 2017, when he picked me up in a Red Beetle or something. Like that at this tiny train station in Camucho Cortona and, and that's in Tuscany and then drove us up the hill. And I could tell he had no experience with stick driving to our retreat house for the week. And these in person meetings are really just so special in this online world, aren't they? So that's why I went back to Lou for this episode [00:05:00] around video. So in this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points, how Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection, the core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level, how authenticity builds trust. And a loyal audience, tools for video creation, including AI tools, future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs to get started or to get better with video and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Lou Bortone. Hey Lou, so glad to see you again and get a chance to talk shop with you about video. And of course, in the off recording, we talked about Sicily because we have a common love for everything Italy, right? Lou Bortone: Exactly. Yeah. And you're one of the [00:06:00] online folks that I've actually met in real life. So that's right. Sarah: Yeah. Which is always, you know, it's such an exception. And so it's yeah. Something special. I, I was part of your, what do you call it? Mastermind Lou Bortone: or Tuscany and yeah, and we had the few years of the little interruption of the pandemic and all that, but hopefully that's all behind us. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. That was amazing. Loved it. Cool. So I have you today to talk about video and we were just, Discussing, well, maybe we're going to call it video like we're human or YouTube, like we're human or something like that. And then you share it that you just kind of focus a lot on the trust and authenticity. And so we'll definitely get into that. So really looking forward to it. Why don't you start by sharing how you got. Into video how you you know, you're calling yourself the godfather of video, tell Lou Bortone: us Yeah. [00:07:00] The long and circuitous route too. And you know, it's funny 'cause I think people call me that because they know of my love of Italy and Sicily and the Godfather, but all really, because I've been doing it for a really long time. So I was in the television business for many years in Los Angeles and I think it was probably around. 2000 on 1998 that I really got online and started to do things online. And when our twins were born, we decided, well, let's leave, you know, Hollywood and La La Land and go some, go back to family and in Boston. And that's kind of when I started doing the online video stuff which was fun because the way I discovered YouTube is that I was helping some people. Do a sketch comedy show for like a local cable access. And we started to put the videos on YouTube and really get a lot of attention there. We realized, Oh, this, you know, we were kind of onto something. So I was on from a very early, you know, back in 2005 when YouTube started and I've been doing online video ever since. And I love it because [00:08:00] I'm an introvert and I don't have to be in person necessarily with people. And even though I don't love being on camera for me, it's a lot easier than in person networking. And I just love the fact that we can do this and sort of have our own TV station, our own podcast. I mean, 10, 20 years ago, this would have been impossible. So Sarah: yeah, that's how I got here. That's insane. It's like mind blowing that, you know, 2005, that it really seems like ages and ages, but that's Lou Bortone: when it came out. So I guess that's what, 18 years. Oh my gosh. I feel so old. Sarah: It really is a long time ago and of course, you know, it went through phases of ups and downs and, and it seems like right now it really is kind of like coming back and, and I want to know from you, why do you think that it has this comeback now? What, Lou Bortone: what, what? It's interesting. And it's the same with, you know, remember podcasting sort of cooled off [00:09:00] for a while and now it's harder than ever. I think part of it is that You know, when, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, you know, there were just a few TV stations and a few options. And now with YouTube and podcasts and streaming, you know, we've got access to, to the, to basically a worldwide audience every time we turn on our computer or our PC. Put our phone on. So I think that's part of it. It's just the accessibility and also the fact that folks who maybe are a little younger than us grew up with. They never didn't. You know, they always had Internet. They always had you do. They always had streaming and all this kind of stuff. So for them. A screen is a screen is a screen, they don't care if it's TV, they don't care if it's you know, cable, they don't care if it's YouTube, you know, whatever they're watching, they can watch anything, anytime, and that's why, you know, another crazy statistic is that YouTube has more viewers than all the U. S. TV networks, all the cable networks, all the streaming services, so when you think of TV, you don't usually think of YouTube, but [00:10:00] YouTube is TV, and TV is YouTube. Sarah: I mean, if we think of our kids, right, that's, that's all they're watching. They're not watching TV. It's Lou Bortone: definitely the YouTube. Multi screens. You know, they're, they're watching YouTube on a, on a traditional television screen, but they're on Twitter or X at the same time with their friends. And I don't know how they do it. I can barely manage one screen. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. I also feel that. You know, we were also kind of part of the blogging era. And, and so I feel like, you know, Google has changed their algorithm again. And people are like, well, people don't really read blogs anymore. And we can't get any traction with SEO. Now that the market is getting flooded with all the AI content. So maybe it's also, do you think it's also because of that? People are like, well, at least that. That's what it was for me. I'm like, I got to pay attention to Lou Bortone: YouTube. Absolutely. And then the other thing with business owners, I mean, you know, we always read video is the way to [00:11:00] get the most amount of information in the shortest amount of time. So if we're all multitasking, we're all really over scheduled, we're all really busy. Oftentimes it's like, I can't sit down and read a newspaper. But what's that? You know, it's, I have to, you know, go to YouTube and find this quick answer. I have to go to see this thing on Tik TOK or, you know, so it's really just a great way to get access to any information anywhere in the world. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's, I love it, especially when it's timestamped. So it's like, Oh, I don't even have to watch the whole thing. It's just like, yeah, exactly. So, so yeah. Lou Bortone: So I think now the thing is that. The, the consumer, the viewer, it has more control than ever. Cause like I said, when we were at least in the U S when we were growing up, it's like you had three TV networks and, and they controlled everything. They controlled what you saw, what you heard. And now it's kind of like, well, the consumer can go anywhere they want and see anything they want. So they're completely in control now. Sarah: So that kind [00:12:00] of probably if someone has never done any video kind of sounds also intimidating because it's like, wow, like there's this giant audience out there. Okay. You already mentioned as an introvert, sometimes YouTube is actually probably easier than the networking thing, but maybe it also feels like, well. What am I going to share that hasn't already been said out there? Yeah. So what would you say to that Lou Bortone: question? I think, you know, everybody has their unique spin and everybody has their own, you know Perspective. So it's like you have something to offer. A lot of times if I'm working with my clients or students, they feel like, well, you know, like you said, well, you know, what can I say that hasn't already been said? And I tell them, look, you know, you have a message. You have a unique message. You have a unique way of doing things and your Passion to get that message out to the world has to be stronger than your fear of being on camera. Because again, you know, the other thing too is now that we're all able to be on camera, we're not walking the red carpet at the Oscars. We're just putting on a podcast or a YouTube channel [00:13:00] and showing up and trying to be authentic. Sarah: Right. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about this trust building and authenticity, like what are some key points here that maybe a story I can tell is like, I remember when I put up my first video and I just seen them all because I cleaned up my YouTube channel and I'm like, Oh my God, this is terrible. But I remember like really sweating it like, Oh my God, I have to prepare everything. Yeah. So. Like, do we really need to have this perfect video or how much of it can we just wing and really be just human and Lou Bortone: authentic? I think you can wing 80 percent of it, probably. I mean, I often make the distinction between quick videos and keeper videos. It's like, okay, a keeper video, your homepage video on your website, you know, you want to, you don't want to be in your pajamas, probably. If it's an important video that's going to have shelf life, like your homepage [00:14:00] video, or if you're selling, you know, a thousand dollar coaching program, you don't, you know, you want to look professional. So those keeper videos, you probably want to spend more time and effort on, but if it's, you know, quick tips, I mean, oftentimes I just think of something and then just go to YouTube and share it. So quick tips or Facebook lives or any kind of live video, it's really more about, you know, just showing up. And sharing your message and being authentic. And a lot of times people think video is about the technology. And what I try to sort of, you know, reshape that or respin it as, no, it's really about connection and relationships and engagement. It doesn't matter what technology we're using. It just matters that we're connecting and being authentic and sharing ourselves. Hmm. Sarah: I remember we, we did the workshop together or something about video for introverts back in the days. And, and I remember we did kind of have one module on, on on technology. And I'm thinking maybe that actually lost [00:15:00] a bit of importance now that. You know, we're so used to these shorts on YouTube and even famous people just kind of like filming themselves. You think it has changed maybe also over time? Yeah. And Lou Bortone: I think that the pandemics accelerated it really quickly because, you know, and basically in, you know, a day we all had to move to zoom and we had to move our events to zoom and we had to move everything online. So I think that just accelerated it. And, you know, it was almost like. You know, well, I don't have a choice. I have to be on camera because that's the only way I can connect with my audience right now, right? Yeah. And I think the other thing was now people realize, Oh, this is, you know, this isn't that scary. And this isn't that difficult technically. And we always hear about no like and trust. And I think people finally realized like, wow, this is a great way to build no like and trust. Sarah: Yeah, it's so true. I'm always surprised that people are watching whole episodes, you know, that I put [00:16:00] on the podcast as well, but no, people actually watched the YouTube version of it as well. And probably it's because that know, like, and trust, right? Lou Bortone: Yeah, definitely. The connection, the ability to watch it on the go, cause people are watching on their phones. And I did, you know, I've, I've done podcasting. Off and on, but the reason that I finally committed to doing a podcast was I saw a statistic that YouTube was now the number one source for podcasts, more than Apple, more than Google, more than Amazon people are going to YouTube for podcasts and whether that's just. Kind of listening to it when, you know, with a slide on the screen or having an actual interview or seeing the person on screen, either way there, it's become, you know, kind of the go to place to see and hear podcasts. Sarah: Yeah, that's interesting. I did see a difference between just having that slide and the moving, you know, lines which I did before. So I didn't have the video portion of [00:17:00] it. And now with, with the actual faces, like there is more engagement or there is more views because yeah, obviously it's more interesting to, to see two people talking than just a line. Yeah. Lou Bortone: Yeah. And that's the other thing that's been interesting too is now with all the AI stuff. It's like, I think there's going to be not really a backlash with AI, but more of a need for like, okay, I don't want to see a robotic, you know, synthesized video. I mean, yeah, I can create an AI version of myself. It's like, hi, I'm Lou, you know, and recreate my voice, but it's still not you, you know, it's still not the real person. Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really feel like that's why I like the really human and authentic videos the best, where you see some people, you know, they have like this fancy background and their logo is up there and their book is up there. I'm like, I get that from a marketing perspective, but. [00:18:00] It doesn't feel real. It feels like if I would see you on the street, I probably wouldn't recognize you because you're wearing so much makeup and I don't, yeah, I don't really recognize you. So for me, it's really that real humanness that comes across. Yeah, Lou Bortone: and that's why I like, you know, I don't do as much live video as I should, but I kind of call it like, oh, a live video is to come as you are party, you know, just show up and, and, you know, be yourself and don't worry that the dogs are barking in the background because that's the way it works, you know, like it's, there's going to be distractions, there's going to be craziness going on in the background, but that just makes it more real. Sarah: Talking about that. I just watched, remember that BBC interview where the walks in and then the baby rolls in and I just watched that Lou Bortone: again. Sometimes those are viral moments. Like, you know, the wife's son doing, trying to do a professional interview and the guy walks by. [00:19:00] You know, husband walks behind her in his boxer shorts, you know, it's like, we're trying to do video here, people. Sarah: And what, what I didn't remember is that that was in 2017. So way pre COVID. So that's why it was like super shocking. You know, back then we were all still like, Ooh, you know, has to be super professional. So I feel like a lot has changed since the pandemic. Yeah. And again, Lou Bortone: You have to find that balance because like I kid like you don't want to look like a hostage video. I mean, you don't want to have really terrible lighting and yeah, that it may be authentic, but it's still not easy to watch like if the lighting is really bad or if the audio is bad. So you have to find that balance between like, look, I have to, you know, look relatively professional, but I don't have to be so polished that I'm on doing an interview on CNN or something. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's true. It's that balance that you're still human and creating trust. But without looking [00:20:00] like, yeah, you're just going on CNN. So we talked a little bit about AI what I just recently started using is this Tool called Clip, Opus Clip or something. Oh yeah. Yes. Opus Clip. And it lets you create these little shorts from longer videos. Right. And, and I love that because it's repurposing existing content. And so, yeah, do you know any other great AI tools Lou Bortone: that people are using? I did a series on some AI tools and Opus Clip was one of them, which is great because if you're going to create content. You might as well get as much mileage out of it as possible. So if you're doing a podcast and you wanted to do clips from the podcast, or you want to do 60 second segments, Opus clip is great for that. Pictory. ai is really good because you can, you know, make your videos more professional and edit them and add, you know, B roll and background footage. And the one that I use probably every single day is descript. com. And the reason [00:21:00] I like that is because for people who are not You know, video editors, you can edit the text and all those changes are made, you know, you're basically editing a Word document and then the changes transfer the video. So I've been using that for pod, you know, to produce podcasts and really every kind of video because it's, it's really faster and you can look more professional and more quickly. Yeah, Sarah: and I love the fact that you just highlight all the ums and take them Lou Bortone: all out. Yeah, I had no idea how many times I used the words and until I found a descriptor like, oh, I can take out all the filler words with one click. And suddenly I sound smarter than I am. And I don't think that damages any of the authenticity or makes it any less real. It's just that like, oh, this is, it's going to be a little bit easier to look more professional without having to go through all kinds of crazy editing and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, that's true. It doesn't feel like all of a sudden you sound like a robot. You just. I feel like, yeah, you sound [00:22:00] smarter because you're not constantly looking for words or, or, yeah, saying Lou Bortone: them that. And some of it's getting like, it's a little bit weird because there's a feature in Descript where if I'm looking at the screen, it will put your eyes back up to where the camera is. Oh, I haven't Sarah: seen that. Lou Bortone: Ooh, that's kind of, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's a little creepy, but it works pretty well. But again, it's about striking that balance. Like I could do videos where I say, you know, you sort of insert the name, like you do one video, hello. So, you know, it's like, well, obviously that's, you know automated. So you don't want to do so much automation that it's not, you know real anymore. Sarah: Right. Yeah. I guess that's a question that you get often is like, well, where should your eyes be when you're doing either self recorded videos or chats like this one? For example, me right now, I'm looking at the camera. I'm not looking at you, which I always feel like, oh, what a Lou Bortone: shame. You got [00:23:00] to sort of train your eyes. I'm like, Oh, you know, my mom said you have to look people in the eye. Exactly. Great, but the camera, the camera's eye is up here, so I cheat because I have like a little extra monitor up where the camera is, but if I was looking at the screen, it would be, it would feel like I wasn't connecting with you and I wasn't being as authentic because I'm not, you want to try to, the camera is the the other person's eyes. So that's the tricky part. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. What I do is this, because I'm recording on zoom, so I just make the screen of zoom very small and just shove it right under the camera. Lou Bortone: I know. So those kind of tricks of just, you know, try to look at the camera try to have, you know, adequate lighting But again, it's, you know, it doesn't take much. I, I, I like to have a setup where I can just say, okay, my camera is set up, my background's okay, my lights work, and I want to just be able to go. I don't want to have to spend 20 minutes setting up a video every time I do a video. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It becomes kind of like a nuisance if you're, it feels like, Oh, [00:24:00] I have to do all this setting up. What about what about in terms of the, the body placement? Because one thing I noticed is when I put the things on Tik TOK compared to everybody else, my face was like, Oh God, this is like, this is no Lou Bortone: good. Consider where the person's watching from, and a lot of people are watching on their phone, especially if it's a vertical video. So oftentimes if I'm doing a webinar and I'm sharing slides that are landscape, I realized, well, I can't put this on TikTok or Instagram Reels because it's going to squish it. But like, again, using software like Descript, we can take a video like this and put, you know, the people, Vertically so that it still works. So what I do see a lot, and it's funny cause I did another video about this, is it just, people don't have a very good sense of the spatial awareness. Like there'll be way down here, like, hello. And the trick that I, I heard that works is that, you know, think in terms of like, you don't want any more headroom than you [00:25:00] could fit a golf ball on the top of your head. So. You know, you don't want to be too close. You don't want to be too, too far away. Sarah: So what about here? Like Lou Bortone: it's kind of like, I think, you know, we were used to seeing that from news anchors and TV. It's usually like, you know, the, the typical shot is head and shoulders kind of shot, but again you know, if there are people doing videos who are yoga instructors or something like that, they got to go way back and be No, I think it's really just a matter of being aware of where you are in the camera. Oftentimes we'll see on zoom maybe somebody's on a laptop and they're looking up and you're looking up their nose. It's like, that's no fun. You know, just try to. Have a straight on you know, and use the photography rule of thirds where your eyes should be on the top third of the line. And if you've got graphics, those should be on the lower third, which is why they call lower thirds. So it's just having a sort of a spatial awareness of where you are, what's going on on screen. Sarah: Right. Yeah. [00:26:00] Yeah. I think a lot of it also comes back to confidence and just doing it a few times and not caring if it doesn't look good and just keep doing Lou Bortone: it, right? Yeah. So it's funny when we do, like we did the video for introverts thing a few years ago, but when we do when I do these challenges, I say, you know I do my first video in the car after I just came from the gym. So it's like, okay, this is the worst I'm going to look. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to set the bar really low so it can only get better. And you know, I'm in the car, the lighting's bad, I'm sweaty, but okay, I'm going to start there and then work my way towards better videos as I go. Sarah: Right. Yeah, that's a, that's a good way of putting it. And I remember those videos after kickboxing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I would bear that, but yeah. . Lou Bortone: Well, and I think, you know women have a harder time because of the expectations. Like, oh, you know, my hair has to look good and I have to be wearing. Right, whatever. But I think people are less concerned [00:27:00] about that now than they used to be. Sarah: I think so too. And it's so refreshing. Lou Bortone: Yeah. Cause we just show up on zoom and it's like, look, you know I just came back from the gym or I'm, you know, I've been doing this, that so it's really more about, you really have to. Focus on the message and not so much the quality is important, but it's, it's less important than, than your message and you, and what you're Sarah: delivering. You know what that makes me think of is it's funny that we haven't kind of changed our headshots yet to being more human because sometimes you go on somebody's website and it's this beautiful girl. Like. Once in a lifetime that they look like that. And then you see their YouTube videos and you're like, Oh, they're actually human, Lou Bortone: right? And I, I did have photos when we were in Italy. I'm like, Oh, I want to have my pictures with really old buildings in the background and things like that. And then when people show up, they're like, Oh, you don't look like you look on, on [00:28:00] screen. So I used to do a really silly trick. Okay. Back in the Photoshop days is I would make my image actually a little wider so that I'd look heavier. And then when I showed up in person, people would say, Oh, you have you lost weight? So I was doing that reverse Photoshop, like, well, I want to look better in person. So I'm going to, but again, it's, it's, it is all about that authenticity and connection. And I talk about building loyalty through video, because again, it's really more about A relationship than about what camera you're using. Sarah: Yeah, it really feels like it's. I explained it in levels of intimacy, right? And so people sign up to your newsletter that they get your emails. That's the kind of the low level or before that it's even social media. Right. And then there's a higher level is newsletter and even higher letter that level Dell will be YouTube or, you know, any kind of video. And then probably [00:29:00] zoom calls where it's like in person zoom calls and then the actual in person meeting. But yeah. I do feel already, you know, we're seeing each other's facial expressions and that, yeah, that creates trust and loyalty. I Lou Bortone: totally agree. Yeah. And again, you know, even though, thank goodness we're past the pandemic and live events are coming back and conferences are back, there's still going to be that hybrid events, people working from home much more than they used to. I mean, my kids who are 25 they have never worked in an office. Everything they've done is, is on screen, on zoom, on Google meet, whatever it is. That's just the way they work now. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, it's crazy. Yeah, it really is. So let us talk a little bit to wrap up around the future. So we mentioned AI, we mentioned that, you know, Google is not really easy anymore to have your [00:30:00] blog posts featured. So what is, what do you see the future of video? How do you see it? Lou Bortone: I think it's, you know, obviously there's going to be a lot more volume because people are going to continue to flock to YouTube and watch YouTube shorts. I think we're going to see, you know, shorter bursts of videos, like. TikTok and Instagram reels are going to continue and it's a little harder to make the connection there because you're on for a shorter amount of time. But I think we're going to see the shorter videos, promoting podcasts and longer content where you really can connect because again, you're obviously going to make a better connection with somebody if you're seeing or hearing them for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, rather than. Forty five seconds and i think the other thing is that there may be a little bit of a not really a backlash but sort of an anti AI thing like okay i've seen the robotic you know synthetic version of blue but where's the real you know i'm gonna show up on facebook live and not be perfect but be real so i think you'll start [00:31:00] to see a little bit more of you know as much as we're going to be using AI that's still not going to you know literally replace the person and their message. Sarah: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I'm, I'm all for AI, but exactly. It's still, in a way it makes the videos that we're doing even more special and more human. So, so maybe that's also a good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. So, yeah, because that's the, you know, it's almost like if you send out an email blast, it's not very personal. If you send out an, an AI video, it's great, but it's not. You know, it's personal or familiar or engaging. And even now that chat GPT is, is starting to put in I think it's called Sora where you can put in a prompt and chat GPT will create a video from nothing, which is great, but it's still not. You, I don't think so. What Sarah: does it do? It creates an avatar of you or just, Lou Bortone: you know, if you say create a video about a trip [00:32:00] to, to Boston mass, it's going to pull in footage from Boston and scenes and sites. And I think, you know, eventually if you record yourself, it'll be able to do sort of a facsimile of you, but it's still not going to be the real you. So, yeah, Sarah: some interesting, interesting things coming our way. That's for sure. Lou Bortone: Yeah, it's crazy. So I think there's still gonna be a place, a really important place for those videos. If I do a lot of video email, I just sort of, you know, rather than sending email, I do a video on loom and, and share something. And I think again, that's more personal. Yeah, it takes a little bit more time, but I think it also has a lot more impact because you feel like, oh, wow, this person's actually talking to me. It's not going to 1000 people. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. Yeah. I love those videos. I remember them from, from the, the trip in Tuscany. One thing we didn't talk about so much, and maybe it's something that we don't need to worry about is the whole algorithm thing, because obviously we're replacing the [00:33:00] Google algorithm by a YouTube algorithm. So how much are you paying attention and telling your clients to pay attention to the algorithm and making sure it gets, you know, right? Yeah, Lou Bortone: I mean, as long as I've, I've been on YouTube since the very beginning, and it's constantly changing and it's hard to keep up with. And I actually work with a YouTube coach just to try to stay on top of it. Can, and he keeps telling me the same thing and I've heard it over and over. And I think it's the best idea is make videos for humans, not algorithm. Don't try to game the system. Don't do keyword stuffing. I mean, I, I was talking to him about keywords and tags and he's like, just don't worry about it. It doesn't even matter anymore. Just make, you know, know who your audience is and, and try to connect with them and give them what they expect from you, what they want from you. And don't say, oh, you know, I'm going to make a knitting video because knitting is really hot. This is like, well, that's not what I do. So, so don't try to gain the system because you're not going to figure it [00:34:00] out and just make videos for an audience and for a person rather than for an algorithm. Man, Sarah: that's really refreshing because it feels like we're trying to figure out the algorithm and by the time you figured it out, it changed again, Lou Bortone: right? I know it's like I used to have coaches are like, okay, your title has to be 69 characters and your description has to be this and you know, it's still important to optimize your video the best you can, but at the end of the day, you know, spend more time making the video than trying to, you know, figure out just the exact keyword to include. Yeah. Sarah: Wow, I'm glad I asked you that early Lou Bortone: relief. It's like save, save you a lot of trouble in, in SEO research. And it's not completely, you know, it's not that important anymore. It's still counts for something, but like my YouTube coach is like, don't worry about the keywords for the tags and keywords, just put in different spellings of your name. So if somebody spells your name wrong, they'll still find you like, okay. [00:35:00] So so it's, you know, and, and the other thing is that with YouTube. It's shifted so much. I mean, maybe keywords were 80 percent of the people finding your video and now it's like 10%. So, and I even look at my analytics and I say, Oh, you know, only a few of these viewers came from search. The vast majority of them came from suggested videos of people finding the video because they, you know, they're seeking you out and they know, Oh yeah, I need video advice or I need to know how to do such and such. Okay. Sarah: Interesting. Yeah. So it just keeps, keeps on changing. So as long as you put your videos out there, you're, Lou Bortone: you're doing something right. Consistency is really, really important. I mean, YouTube likes consistency and YouTube likes watch time. So people always say, well, should I be doing video shorts or longer videos? And really a combination is best because you're sort of getting the best of both worlds. But YouTube, you know, the algorithm still does reward watch time. So if people start a video with you and then stick with it, [00:36:00] YouTube loves that because you're on the channel longer. So that's why I think podcasts are doing so well on YouTube because tend to stick with the, you know, the whole podcast rather than just watch two minutes of it. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: That's good to know. Well Last question. What would you say people who are just starting out and they're kind of, and maybe they're introverts, what's the first video that they should do? Lou Bortone: I think that the lowest hanging fruit is live video, Facebook Live, YouTube Live. I mean, you can go on and do a video. Maybe you just do it into a Facebook group. But I think live videos have a little bit less of an expectation of perfection. So you can show up, you can make a few mistakes. You can. Do your ums and ahs, whatever, and people are not going to be that concerned about it. So I think practicing with live video is a really good way to get your feet wet and sort of get, you know, ease your way into videos. And then after you've done a bunch of those and you realize like, Oh my God, I didn't die on [00:37:00] video. Then you can say, now I'm going to go record a video for my homepage and maybe I'll make that more professional. Sarah: That's, that's cool. And so in live video, does that mean that people can actually come on live? Right? Lou Bortone: Yeah. And you know, with like Facebook live, again, you can, you can say, I'm only going to go live to my private group. So maybe you feel a little bit safer starting there because you know, the folks in your group. Right. Oftentimes I'll do a video and then on the Facebook setting, I'll do only me. So like, okay, it's, it's live, but it's not, nobody's seeing it. And then maybe later on, I'll say, okay, that, that wasn't so bad. I'm going to change that view to public. So even though you recorded it ahead of time, you didn't make it live until afterwards. Yeah. Sarah: Love that. Very good. Well, thanks so much for sharing all your godfatherly knowledge. Thank you. It's been great. Tell people please where they can find you and, and I know you have a, a free tool for us as well. Lou Bortone: Everything's at [00:38:00] loubortone. com. And I also like people sometimes have trouble planning their video, what they're going to say. So I have a free video planner at loubortone. com forward slash. And that'll just help you sort of map out your video and, and know what you're going to say. And you don't have to script it. You don't have to have it all, you know, word for word. Sometimes it just helps to know, okay, I'm going to do my intro and I'm going to do these three points. And then I have a call to action. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I do. I think it's really helpful because. By the time you're two thirds in, you don't remember how you wanted to end it. And so it's kind of good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. A few bullet points. And then there's always, you know, editing. You can always go into Descript and use the AI to take out all your filler words and, and sound smarter. Sarah: That's great. I always ask one last question to all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? Lou Bortone: Wow. At my age, just waking up, but, but yeah, I mean, it's [00:39:00] here in the U. S. in February in New England, it's, it's chilly out, but you know, the sun's out and everybody's healthy and, you know, it's all good. Nice. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, let's hope it stays like that. It's really good to reconnect with you. Thanks so much for being on the show. Lou Bortone: Thank you. Appreciate it. Sarah: And that's a wrap for today. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Lou and his work at loubortone. com. Lou also has a free video planner for us that helps us plan the content of our video before we hit that recording button. So you'll find this at loubartone. com forward slash planner. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about our community at [00:40:00] humane. marketing forward slash circle. And you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] soon.

DoorGrow Live 2024 is upon us! If you have been in the property management space for a little while now, you're probably familiar with DoorGrow Live.  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah explain how this year's is expanding upon previous DoorGrow Live events. This year's theme focuses on creating opportunity in times of uncertainty. Be there May 17-18 in Round Rock, TX. You'll Learn [01:20] DoorGrow Live, the property management event you don't want to miss [03:58] 2024: Creating Opportunity Through Uncertainty [05:48] Using these hectic times to your advantage [07:07] First glance at DoorGrow Live topics [08:32] Networking with growth-minded people Tweetables “The market is very uncertain right now, but that is such a great opportunity to do something with it.” “It's not hard to step up and showcase leadership and become a leader in times of crisis.” “There's all sorts of craziness that's going to be happening, and this is a big opportunity for you to get more market share to get more investments.” “This is how some of the largest companies were built were during like recessions or depressions or time periods where they decided to double down and to focus on growth instead of scale back and be a fearful like everybody else. This is when winners are made.”   Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: This is when winners are made. And so we want our clients and those that are close to us and attending DoorGrow Live to be those that capitalize and succeed in this industry.  [00:00:11] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager.  [00:00:29] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:49] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull the founder and CEO of DoorGrow and the operator COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:13] And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:16] All right, we'll get that figured out eventually. [00:01:18] I always love it.  [00:01:19] Okay. So what we're going to be talking about today is what, Sarah?  [00:01:24] Sarah: DoorGrow Live  [00:01:25] Jason: DoorGrow live. DoorGrow Live! Yeah, so DoorGrow Live is our premier conference that we do once a year and it's pretty great. [00:01:35] So what do we want to say about it?  [00:01:37] Sarah: All right. So let's get them some of the information first. You can get all of this information at DoorGrowlive.Com. So that's the first thing is Just go to doorgrowlive.Com. Everything is on there except for our agenda, which we have not yet released. [00:01:53] We've got so much good stuff planned for you guys, but we're keeping the agenda a little close right now. So the dates for the event. It's a Friday and Saturday. It's May 17th and 18th, and it's in North Austin, Texas. The city is actually Round Rock, but no one knows where that is, so North Austin, Texas. [00:02:13] Okay, and where are we holding it this year?  [00:02:17] Jason: It's going to be at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas So this is a really cool resort. it's really large and it's brand new. It's just built in the last several years.  [00:02:28] Sarah: 2020? Bad launch date.  [00:02:30] Jason: Yeah, they launched it not knowing there was going to be a pandemic.  [00:02:33] Sarah: Yeah, I think they opened and then the whole world shut down. [00:02:36] Jason: Yeah. And they have I believe the United States' largest indoor water park. It has this big indoor water park. Which could be fun. Yeah. If you're into that, or you can bring the kiddos maybe with you, but and it has several good restaurants and it's right in the heart of Round Rock. [00:02:51] Round Rock is just such a cute, cool town. The downtown area is really cool. There's all sorts of, great little restaurants and, bars and whatever you're into. So it's a fun little area and you're just hop, skip, and jump to get to downtown Austin. It's, Flying into Austin, one of the easiest, best airports. [00:03:09] I love being close to be able to get places through that airport.  [00:03:13] Sarah: Yeah. And they have a lot of flights. Yeah. They really do. They have flights from everywhere. So it's very central. It's easy to get on into. And the airport is really great.  [00:03:22] Jason: And then it's a quick drive over to the Kalahari resort where you can book your room and stay. And we've got a special group rate for you there so.  [00:03:30] Sarah: We do.  [00:03:31] Jason: We negotiated, so.  [00:03:33] Sarah: We do. Jason's assistant Mar, she always negotiates really great deals for you guys. If you want to just go ahead and book, you can, but if you'd rather get the discounted room rate, go to doorgrowlive.Com and then click on the link to register. [00:03:48] And that will help you get registered for the event and it will help you book your room at the discounted room rate. So that way you can get... I like saving money. I like it. It's great for me.  [00:03:59] Jason: All right. So what else do we want to tell them about DoorGrow Live?  [00:04:02] Sarah: Oh, okay. So this year's theme is going to be Creating Opportunity Through Uncertainty. [00:04:09] It's a weird year. So I really don't know what's happening with the market. There's a lot of talk. Is it going up? Is it going down? Are interest rates going to change? What's happening with property management? Right now it's a little bit harder to rent things out, whereas before, you could find a tenant in about a week or two. [00:04:26] And now that has changed and slowed down. And I'm hearing from some people that they're worried about their competitors or new companies are popping up that want to leverage AI and All kinds of technology and not have a lot of humans involved and, all the good stuff. So it's just a weird year and the market is very uncertain right now, but that is such a great opportunity to do something with it. [00:04:52] So we want to talk with you guys about how you can actually grow your company right now. This is not going to be well, "Hey, this might be relevant in three years if the market does this," this is relevant right now. So we're going to talk about actual strategies that you can implement today.... the day after the conference... if you attend. [00:05:09] And that you can just immediately implement them and start growing because we have some really amazing things planned for this conference.  [00:05:18] Jason: One of the things that I've noticed over the last several events that we've done and our plans for this one, just to give you a little bit of a teaser is we have a focus on those that want to be involved as investors. [00:05:32] And most property managers are investors and they're serving investors. And so some of the people are bringing in some of the conversations we're going to be having are how did structure, creative deals especially in this environment where we've got high interest rates and things are a little crazy. [00:05:48] And what Sarah said is true. 2024 is an election year, right? Every time there's an election cycle, the most powerful people and decision makers that control our lives to some degree start making things crazy. And there's opposing sides and it gets wild. So there's a lot of uncertainty that happens every election cycle. [00:06:06] Look at 2020, look at four years before that, look at 2024. There's all sorts of craziness that's going to be happening, and this is a big opportunity for you to get more market share to get more investments. There's going to be a big opportunity, I think, for you to establish yourself as a leader in the marketplace, and it's not hard to step up and showcase leadership and become a leader in times of crisis, like during the pandemic. And there's people that failed during that. And there's people that succeeded during that and made a lot of money. And we want to make sure you're prepared because there's patterns to this. [00:06:42] This is how some of the largest companies were built were during like recessions or depressions or time periods where they decided to double down and to focus on growth instead of scale back and be a fearful like everybody else. This is when winners are made. And so we want our clients and those that are close to us and attending, DoorGrow Live to be those that capitalize and succeed in this industry. [00:07:07] Sarah: So I'm not saying that this is definitely going to happen. I'm just saying that there's a pretty good chance that we might be talking about things like some creative ways to structure deals. Maybe some seller finance stuff, maybe some subject 2, maybe looking at your portfolio to see if any of your investors start to panic sell. [00:07:32] If you can capitalize on those opportunities, we might be looking at your profitability. We might be talking about some different business models and growth engines. There's just a chance that those are some of the things that we might talk about, being that we're not releasing the full agenda yet  [00:07:50] Jason: Okay, so yeah, there's gonna be some cool stuff Some of the things we might be talking about is a lot of people have been really curious about how we've been Able to make millions and millions of dollars leveraging Social media, and it's not something I usually want to share because I feel like it's a distraction in a lot of instances, but there are some ways to do this. [00:08:12] That can make you money as a property manager. And so there might be some conversation around some of that and how to leverage AI and some of the tools we use a DoorGrow to collapse time and cost on getting out to all the social media platforms. And so Yeah, there's several other things that we can tease, but it's going to be a really great event. [00:08:32] I think the best part about DoorGrow events that's really different from every other property management conference that I've been around or attended is the type of people that are there. They're just, they're a different crowd. The DoorGrow crowd is a different crowd. These are growth minded people. [00:08:47] These are contribution focused people. These are people that want to make a difference. These are people that are experiencing a different level of mindset, a different level of freedom and fulfillment in their business. These are property managers that actually enjoy what they get to do. This is what we do with clients. [00:09:02] We get them to the point where they're enjoying their day to day. And we've gotten all of the uncomfortable stuff onto other people's shoulders on their teams. And so we're really good at helping our clients get out of the cycle of suck, getting out of the day to day suck of stress and overwhelm. This is not a conference where everybody shows up and they just want to go hang out at the bar and pretend it's a vacation and get wasted. [00:09:25] Right. And if that's you, sorry, if I offended you, go do that. That's if that's what you need.  [00:09:30] Sarah: Do that after the event.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah, sure.  [00:09:32] Sarah: Go drink in the water park.  [00:09:33] Jason: Go do that. You can't.  [00:09:35] Sarah: I think there's a bar in there.  [00:09:36] Jason: I don't know. Maybe. But our clients are there to connect. They're there to get to the next level. [00:09:41] They have a growth mindset. And they're there to network. And so the connections made at these events are some of the biggest game changers. People are making friends. And if you want to be part of a community, if you want to come just taste some of the DoorGrow magic in person and see what's DoorGrow about? How is this different? [00:10:00] Why aren't they going to all of these other conferences and doing what everybody else is doing? How are they unique? Come experience it, come see it, and we'll share some things with you. And you'll get to talk to people that are having phenomenal growth. People that are like startups that are adding a hundred doors in like six months, like people that are adding two, 300 doors a year without spending any money on advertising, like this is real stuff that our clients are doing. [00:10:24] And you can come rub shoulders with some amazing people. I think that's the thing about DoorGrow is we, I think are attracting the cream of the crop, the best people in the industry, people with the strongest and healthiest mindset, people that are attracted to growth minded people. If you want to be around growth minded people in this industry that are doing innovative and new things like this is the place to be is DoorGrow Live. [00:10:47] So go to doorgrowlive.Com right now, get your tickets. We do have limited availability. This is not a massive event yet. And we have, we sold out. We've sold out at these events. If you want to get your spot, I recommend get in now because we know what you're going to do. [00:11:05] Sarah: What happens at every event is we always have more people and then they're like, "can we just grab a chair and maybe put it in the back? Like I'll stand in the back. I don't care." And that has happened at the last three of our events where we've had more people try to show up. [00:11:20] Jason: And then you stress out my assistant Mar and  [00:11:24] Sarah: I'm like just grab them a chair take a chair from the lobby I don't care make it happen  [00:11:28] So let's make sure that you have a place at a seat at the table. [00:11:32] Let's do that.  [00:11:33] Jason: Yeah get make sure that you get your tickets early get your tickets soon.  [00:11:38] Sarah: There's early bird tickets on sale right now.  [00:11:40] Jason: Oh, Yeah, so at the time of this recording there are early bird tickets for sale So if you're watching this live right now, or you see this soon There are early bird tickets and the tickets we're not trying to make this some crazy profit center The tickets early bird tickets are what 197? [00:11:57] They're 197  [00:11:59] Sarah: 197!  [00:12:00] Jason: And what does the room cost?  [00:12:02] Sarah: It's probably somewhere around two to three hundred.  [00:12:04] Jason: We're not trying to make this some big expensive thing.  [00:12:06] We probably make $0 off the whole event.  [00:12:10] Sarah: Oh yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: It costs us a lot of money to put these events on, but for us, it creates community...  [00:12:14] Sarah: It's an investment that we're willing to make so that we can do cool things in the industry and for our clients and for those who are just interested in being better and leveling up their business and their life. [00:12:28] Jason: Okay, cool.  [00:12:28] Sarah: So go to DoorGrow Live, grab your early bird tickets. You can do it after the early bird sale too or wait longer, which I'm cool with. Do it now. If you want the sale do it now. And. You'll get there's a whole section on there with frequently asked questions, all of the information that you need is on there, but if you've got any additional questions, just ping us, reach out to us, you can really reach us just about anywhere and our team will be able to help you and answer your questions. [00:12:55] And then I will also say we still have a few spots. I don't know, exactly how many right now I'll confirm for sure for VIP I want to say there's at least four left right now, and that is tentative, but at three or four, maybe spots left at this point for the VIP. So if you're interested in upgrading to VIP, again, you can do this at doorgrowlive.Com. There's a button that says upgrade to VIP. And if you upgraded VIP then on I think day two, you'll go to lunch. We'll do a little VIP lunch. You'll be able to have lunch with all of the speakers at the event.  [00:13:34] Jason: And us.  [00:13:34] Sarah: And yes, and me and Jason our team is going to be there and you'll get priority seating at the event. [00:13:41] Jason: Cool. Yay. All right. Okay. That's it. Go to doorgrowlive.Com and until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:49] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:16] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George's approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.

If you've been listening to the #DoorGrowShow for a while, you're probably familiar with how DoorGrow helps property management business owners grow and scale their businesses, but you might not be ready to take the leap of faith just yet… In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull reveal a new way to get your feet wet and work with DoorGrow to create a personalized roadmap with a low-risk investment. Go to doorgrow.com/clarity for more details. You'll Learn [01:23] The creation of a new coaching strategy [07:43] 4 steps to creating a roadmap [14:57] The benefits of Planning and Discovery Tweetables “So if you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster” “The healthier your mindset, the faster you grow and the more money you make.” “You should be doing less of those things if those aren't the things that you actually like.” “I don't think you'll trust anybody else really to help you move your business forward.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster because you're not wasting time with time wasters or tight kickers or doing the wrong thing So the more of these you stack, the healthier your mindset, the faster you grow  [00:00:20] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:58] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:20] All right. So we came up with this idea this last weekend. And this might be helpful for some listening, we used to sell websites. That used to be the main thing. And we used to be called OpenPotion way back in the day. [00:01:31] And over time I realized I spent a lot of time figuring out how to help these web designers figure out what they needed for their website and to really make it effective as a marketing tool, I had to ask a lot of questions and over time it turned into multiple sessions, like to map everything out. [00:01:49] And I realized the more time I spent with them, the higher the price I could charge. Like I was able to get people to buy more because I was able to showcase more value, help them understand. They realized, 'Oh there's a lot more of the website could do for me.' So it really created this ultimate win win, better than if I just sat down and said, "what do you want?" and just did whatever I was told. And you can go out and find a cheap web designer and just say, "give me a website." And they'll just go, "okay, what do you want?" And they'll just do whatever you tell them to do, but you're not an expert at this, right? Otherwise you would be building websites, maybe. [00:02:18] So I, it got to the point where I was telling them, "here's what we need to do, and here's how to do this." And now I was doing these multiple sessions and then I had somebody that wasn't a really great person eat up my time. I spent like probably six hours, maybe eight hours with this guy, like mapping everything out, getting the site map, homepage layout mapped out, like everything we were going to do together. And we had this plan. And then he's, "thanks so much. I'm going to have my team members in India build it." And I was like, "Oh," I was pretty upset. So Sarah and I were driving back on the way from Dallas with our friend, Roya, who's hanging out in the car and she's coming to hang out with us for a day. [00:02:55] And I was talking with Roya and she was asking about sales and I was explaining how I used to sell websites and what increased the close rate dramatically and added more value. And it was almost, Like I almost never didn't get the deal once I started doing this planning discovery, it was like I always close the deals. [00:03:13] Like everybody would want to work with me after I did that. And Sarah then had the question...  [00:03:18] Sarah: And he's like, "and I would close a ton of deals and it was really great. And I already knew exactly what they wanted and we had this good relationship. And he's and then I would close like a ton of deals. I would have a bunch of projects." And I said "okay, why don't we sell like that anymore then?" [00:03:32] Jason: Yeah, it was kind of like "I don't know. Selling a mastermind is a little bit different than doing the website, but we would just get people into the mastermind, but this would increase the close rate." [00:03:42] And the idea is you know, If they're going to be spending a bunch of money with you, they want to get their feet wet with you. They want to get to know you a little bit. And I've actually coached clients on this strategy of doing planning and discovery sessions in order to increase the close rate and to get more deals in property management. But we haven't been doing that. We haven't done that for a long time. And so I was like, "I don't know. Maybe we should do that." And you're like, "yeah, I think it'd be a good idea." So we then mapped it out while we were driving in the car. Here's what we could do for each session. [00:04:13] Here's why this would be such a great value. And we mapped it out. And so yesterday I had two calls with potential clients and they were small companies. So they were like, "Oh I've got maybe 30, maybe 50 units." And they're like, "I don't have the funds yet to join your mastermind." [00:04:31] And I said, "we came up with this thing this weekend. Let me tell you about it." And they were like, "yes! I want to do that" I closed both of them on it right then. And so we wanted to share that with the audience. If you are considering working with DoorGrow. And you want to experience the magic of coaching, we'll tell you about the benefits of this, but we came up with this planning and discovery process that gives you a lot of wins and it's super low risk and it's only a thousand bucks and it's pretty cool. [00:04:57] So let's talk about this. It's really low risk because you're going to get a lot of value. You'll easily make more than a thousand dollars back in your business from the ideas that you get from this even if you choose not to move forward with us into the mastermind. So it's worth several thousands of dollars. You'll get to know us and we'll get to know you. So this shows us if you'd be a good client, like if you do the homework, if you do the things we give you to do, and it'll allow you to see what it's like to work with us and if you're getting value and it's going to be really deep because this is like one on one with either Sarah or myself. And so I was talking with the team this morning and they were like, "how do we know whether to give one of these to Sarah or to Jason?" [00:05:37] Sarah: You'll definitely be on these with either Jason or myself. This won't be one of our other coaches. This will be one of the two gurus.  [00:05:45] Jason: So a lot of you listening, you're, you might be a little more familiar with me cause you've seen me on TikTok and I've been around for a while and you might not be as familiar with Sarah unless you've been listening to the podcast. [00:05:55] And she's an amazing bad ass. So what I told the team, we talked about how to sell Sarah this morning, which was interesting. So we were just like, how do I sell Sarah? I'm like "she's this amazing bad ass who had 260 units at the peak in her own property management business. They were C class properties that were difficult to deal with. She was able to manage them remotely with one part time person boots on the ground. And she had over 60 percent profit margin." [00:06:20] Sarah: 60 was bad.  [00:06:21] Jason: That was a bad month. Okay. She's flexing now. 70%?  [00:06:26] Sarah: Yeah. Like 70, 80.  [00:06:28] Jason: So this is what we would say. [00:06:30] And also we then talked about some of the results you've gotten clients. Like she's helped some of our clients cut their staffing costs in half from a single call. She's helped some replace some of our clients' entire team and increase their profitability dramatically. Like this sort of thing. [00:06:43] Sarah: I'm good at figuring out how things work and why are they working the way that they're working and how the different pieces fit together? And do we have too many pieces? Do we not have enough pieces? Are there the right people, but maybe they're doing the wrong things? I'm really good at figuring out all of that. [00:06:59] That's just how my brain works. I like to just figure out how things work. And I've done that in every business I've ever worked in. As like an employee and it's uncomfortable for them. It's uncomfortable because I'm like, "why are you doing things like this? You're doing it wrong." [00:07:14] Jason: Yeah. Business owners love their ego shattered by this pretty young lady in their business, I'm sure. [00:07:21] But yeah, you're hurting all these fragile egos. All right.  [00:07:24] Sarah: But clients pay me to do that.  [00:07:26] Jason: Clients pay you. So yeah. So anyway that's how we position Sarah. And so there might be some scenarios in which they might be better off, especially if their challenges are more on team, operations, stuff like this, then I told them like, " then you can sell Sarah to them on this, right?" [00:07:43] So let's talk about what would be included, like what we're going to do. Here's my little roadmap slide, but they can't see that, but we'll show it to you when you get on a call with us. And if you're interested in this, you can easily go book a call at doorgrow.Com. Or just instant message me or anybody on the team on any social and we'll get you on a call and we can tell you more about this or you can just get started by going to our website. [00:08:07] We should have a page up for this very soon. By the time you hear this, probably. And we're working on that this week. All right. Let's talk about the benefits of this. You're going to get clarity on yourself. You're going to get clarity on your business. You're going to get clarity on how to build the right team around you. [00:08:23] To some degree, we're going to help you free up a lot of time. We're going to get you time clarity because time is one of the biggest challenges our clients have. So this is something we coach on a lot. How to free up time. So you have more bandwidth to make more money or to do more of what you want to do. [00:08:39] We may be able to get into some financial stuff a bit to help you find some quick wins financially. And we're going to get you clarity on escaping that solopreneur sand trap or that team sand trap that you might be stuck in right now. And we're going to go over and teach you several powerful frameworks and we're going to apply them to you and to your business in a way that we just can't do by sharing these on a podcast. Like the six core functions, the five currencies, the four reasons, the five exits, and then we're going to get into stackable amplification strategy. So if you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster because you're not wasting time with time wasters or tight kickers or doing the wrong thing. So the more of these you stack, the healthier your mindset, the faster you grow and the more money you make. And so we're going to get into the blue ocean strategy versus the red water, the myth of SEO, the cycle of suck, the four D's to revenue. [00:09:38] That one really increases our clients closing better deals. Lighthouse versus the battleship. Which is prizing and sales. David versus Goliath, dumb David versus smart David. The fifth reason and why you shouldn't be selling property management and what people want instead, and then getting into all the pipeline leaks, we're going to help you. We're going to assess your business and identify the leaks that exist in your sales pipeline, or that exist in the systems in operations so that you have clarity on moving forward. So do you want to take them through the sessions?  [00:10:09] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's important to know that we don't go over all of those on all of these that would be an immense amount of sessions an immense amount of times  [00:10:17] Jason: Yeah, but we'll go into what they need and what's relevant. [00:10:20] Sarah: So basically what we do is we go in and we have to first assess what your business is like. So on the first call, that's what we're doing. We're digging into your business. What does your day look like? What does your team look like? Do you have a team? Who's handling what? How many doors do you have? [00:10:35] Where are you located? What kind of management do you do? Are you only focusing on long term or are you dabbling in multiple types of management? We're really getting. Into a lot of the details of the business. And then we're also on the call, we're figuring out really, what would your goal be? [00:10:54] Is that what you enjoy doing? And if you could create the business of your dreams, what really would that look like?  [00:11:01] Jason: So yeah, we're going to assess the business. We're going to figure out what have you tried so far towards the things that the business has challenges with. [00:11:08] Thank you. But some of the assessment stuff that we'll do with you will give you a lot of clarity. And then you'll get some homework at the end of this. So we're going to get you started on some time stuff, homework wise, and some assessments for yourself, which leads us to session two.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Call number two. [00:11:23] So then we really dive into you. So we'll look at your time. We'll look at what you're doing and how much time you're spending on certain things. And are you enjoying the things that you're doing or do you feel like you're just spinning a lot of your day? And we'll look at some personality assessments as well so that we can help determine really the things that you actually enjoy doing. [00:11:46] And we'll look at how we can shift you into doing more of those things. And what personality type you may be, everyone has a different personality type and will enjoy doing different things in the business. And a lot of times when I get on calls with clients, I find that people are like, "Oh, I should be doing operations or I should be doing sales and I, like I should be doing this." [00:12:10] And then we start to try to get them closer to those things. And then we realize, no, you shouldn't be getting closer to those things. You should be doing less of those things if those aren't the things that you actually like. Just because you think you have to do them, don't do them if you don't actually like doing them. [00:12:26] So then we find out what they actually like, and then we shift them into doing more of the things that they actually enjoy doing. We've had multiple clients do that and then that changes their entire business.  [00:12:36] Jason: Yeah, this is a big secret to building a business that you actually enjoy being in, building the right team around you. [00:12:43] So getting clarity on yourself will be a big deal. And so we're going to help you understand your personality type a bit more because you're unique and we've got some self assessments that are going to help you figure some of this stuff out. But that clarity alone will help you make some changes in your business. [00:12:58] Doing the time stuff that we will also be assessing during this call, the time stuff that you've started doing. And this will help give you a lot of clarity on how to free up time, how to start to leverage whatever team members you might have more effectively, so that you're getting more yield from the dollars you're spending on staff and payroll. [00:13:14] That alone will probably pay for all of this. All right, then they're going to have some homework to complete some assessments and identify leaks in their pipeline and in their operations and systems, depending on which area they need, if they need growth more, or if they need more on process and ops. [00:13:31] And then that leads us to call number three, session three.  [00:13:35] So basically the third session, we're going to be focused on the systems of the business and identifying which leaks exist. So if the goal is growth, we're going to be getting you clarity on what are the systems and leaks that are a challenge in the growth side of things. [00:13:49] And if it's operations, we're going to be figuring out similarly, what are the leaks and the challenges there? And this will all be applied to our DoorGrow code roadmap and how we can help you scale and map out the future, but we'll be creating clarity around all the leaks that exist and discussing how to resolve them And giving you like your options for what we could be doing in the future and Your homework on this will be to get clear on what you want to get from your future with DoorGrow because that's what we're going to talk about in the next video Session four is coming up with the plan. [00:14:19] So first session: business, second session: you third session: systems, fourth session is the plan.  [00:14:25] Sarah: We give you a personalized roadmap, which is really great because now we have we really understand you and really understand where you are in the business and where you'd like to be. [00:14:33] So now we can give you a personalized roadmap that will get you closer to where you want to be and that roadmap will apply whether or not you continue on working with us. Yeah, so that is not something that it's like, "oh I only get this if I work with DoorGrow." No, you'll get it and you'll have it and you'll know What are the next steps that you need to take in your business regardless of whether you work with us. [00:14:54] Of course we want you to, but you don't have to. [00:14:56] Jason: So the benefit of going through this planning and discovery is one We will really get to know you and your business and how we can help you at a greater level of depth, which is awesome that we do a lot of this during the onboarding process, usually for our mastermind clients. [00:15:10] So we'll get to get very familiar and you'll be able to then know that I, at the end of this, I don't think you'll trust anybody else really to help you move your business forward because you'll be getting a lot of insight, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, and clarity, the most important thing, on how to move your business forward. [00:15:28] And we will paint a really nice future with DoorGrow of how we can support you and help you. And even if you don't decide to work with us, like Sarah's saying, and you just do this. You will walk away with more time, more clarity on your team, more clarity on yourself, and some ideas of how to move the business forward to get to the next level. [00:15:47] And I think at that point, though, you probably won't want to do it without us is our intention and goal. Like we know that we can support you in moving and going through this faster and helping you collapse time and it'll easily be worth the cost. And so you can go through this now here's the kicker where this gets even more awesome. If you do all this with us, it's a thousand bucks, you do these four sessions. And we take maybe a month or so to go through this, maybe less, but we're working together for a few weeks. At the end of this, on the fourth session and when we give you, "here's everything that you could be doing with us, and here's how we could get to the next level. And this is personalized to you." If you decide to continue moving forward with us, this thousand dollars will be applied towards the next thing with DoorGrow. So it's like the lowest risk thing ever. [00:16:34] And if you decide to walk away, you spend a thousand bucks and you've gotten easily more than a thousand dollars worth of value, but we'll apply the thousand dollars towards the setup or towards the in person events or whatever is coming next for you to join in on the mastermind. No brainer, right? [00:16:51] Super low risk, right? So we're that confident in what we can do and help you and how we can help you moving forward. So that's just the idea of our planning and discovery. So anything else we should say about this? [00:17:04] Sarah: I think that when we were creating this, just the one thing that I wanted to make sure is that it's really valuable as a standalone thing. [00:17:14] Yeah. You do not need to do anything else. It's not "Oh, Hey, at the end, like we're going to shove DoorGrow down your throat." We're not, it's going to be very valuable all on its own and in its own, right. Also, we wanted to make sure that the price point was really accessible to people because to get on a call with Jason or myself, our time is very valuable. [00:17:34] So we have made this at a hugely discounted rate. So like our normal rate is $1,000 an hour. So this is at a very accessible price point. And we wanted to make sure that we can do that because sometimes we talk with people and they hear everything. What we're all about and what we do and how much we can really help property managers. [00:17:54] And they're like, "oh my God, that's amazing. I just don't know if i'm ready for the mastermind yet, or I don't know if I can afford the mastermind. I don't know if I can make that move yet." And we wanted to be able to help more people and I think this is a really good way to do that.  [00:18:08] Jason: Yeah, I think just some of the things they'll go through with us and learn just in doing this will help them get to the point where they can then do the mastermind and have the funds to do it. [00:18:18] We'll help them collapse time and we'll help them figure out some ways to generate some more income as well. For those that are larger companies, this should be an easy no brainer. And we may not do this forever. We may not, this may be too costly in terms of time and energy for Sarah and I to do in the business while running DoorGrow with the hundreds of clients that we have. [00:18:40] But this is the offer and I think it's an awesome offer. And get in on it while you can. It's really cool. Personalized coaching with the two of us and we get to see inside hundreds of companies. We get to help them figure out how to grow and scale their businesses. And having that personalized time, you're going to get some value and you'll be able to ask questions and we'll be able to move forward. [00:19:00] Think that's basically it. So if you're interested in this, you can reach out to us at doorgrow.com or message us on social media and we can get you a link to get the call scheduled for your first session with us for this and get you the payment link so you can invest in yourself and invest in collapsing time and invest in moving your business forward with a coach. [00:19:19] Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. That's it.  [00:19:23] Yeah.  [00:19:23] All right. Until next time then to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:19:26] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Tax season is upon us. Every property management business owner knows the struggle of trying to navigate IRS regulations each year and find the best outcome. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Mo Hussein with Balanced Asset Solutions. You'll Learn [02:05] Talking tax code and regulations [10:02] Why you need an accounting tool/software [18:38] Reducing your tax liability [23:21] Writing off education costs [26:24] A few more tips for the road Tweetables “The experts are worth a lot more to me than software.” “You're going to pay for everything in business, whether it's going to be in time or in cash.” “If a handyman shows up with only a multi tool instead of a toolbox to do a job, the property manager is probably not going to call that guy back.” “There's certainly a wrong way to do taxes, but there isn't a right way or one way to submit your taxes.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Mo: I think what's most important is having a single source of accounting truth I think that's probably what one of the biggest things that a lot of businesses struggle with, especially when it comes to tax season.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome doorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management, growth experts, Jason Hall and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:08] And today we have Mo Hussain back on the show. What's up Mo? [00:01:12] Mo: Hey, doing well. Pleasure to be here.  [00:01:15] Jason: So we're going to be chatting a bit about tax strategies today. Yes. All right, cool. So let's dig into this. This is something that is near and dear to Sarah's heart, which is super weird.  [00:01:25] Sarah: I hate paying taxes. Fun fact, I don't want to give more of my money away if I don't have to. [00:01:31] Jason: I know if I see something on Instagram about a tax strategy, I should just send it to her and she'll find it interesting. Like she just gets into this stuff. So Mo, what do you got for us today?  [00:01:42] Mo: Yeah. Sarah, you are definitely probably the first person I've come across that has actually made a comment that you actually love going through this entire process. [00:01:50] Taxes is one of those things that, there's a saying, there's two things guaranteed in life, death and taxes.  [00:01:55] Jason: And I'm trying to avoid both. So how do we avoid some of the tax?  [00:01:59] Mo: I don't know if we can help with the death part. Maybe over time.  [00:02:01] Jason: We'll probably all be somewhat avoid some of the death maybe. [00:02:05] Mo: Unfortunately, the tax code is very thick. It's honestly created an entire industry of professionals like myself and other CPA firms that are specifically just dedicated to decoding it and maximizing savings with our clients and with taxpayers in general, there's, there's a litany of information that's on the IRS website. [00:02:22] It's very difficult to parse through and and there's also consistent changes that are happening each year. I think probably the biggest changes that are happening this year that a lot of property managers are being impacted by is the new 1099 filings and the IRS portal. Prior to 2023, you'd be able to file your 1099s via paper as of 2023 now, for any filers that are filing more than 10 returns, those have to be filed electronically on the IRS has created the iris. The IRS has created this new portal called the IRIS and allows for you to be able to submit your 1099s electronically. And there's some changes that have happened between the fire system that a lot of folks were using before and the new IRIS system, of course, making things more and more, more, more complex as usual. [00:03:07] Jason: Got it. Why would they make anything easy? Yeah, it's definitely not the goal to be audited next year. Now, it seems when it comes to tax strategies, you've got every everything ranging from across the spectrum from risky, maybe not even actually viable strategies all the way to really safe and conservative. [00:03:31] And some will save you a lot more on taxes on the risky side, going towards more conservative. How do you balance this?  [00:03:39] Mo: Good question. Medium. Good question. The interesting thing is although our CPA firm will file taxes on behalf of our clients. And there'll be another CPA firm maybe the client was working with before that filed taxes the year before. And maybe even though the deductions or maybe other things haven't changed significantly the return and the actual filing and the composition of it is different. And but it doesn't necessarily mean 1 way to do it is wrong than another way. There's a lot of different strategies, especially when it comes to things like depreciating assets and taking advantage, for example, of a bonus depreciation. [00:04:12] And just give you some context, bonus depreciation was a tax incentive that was enacted by Congress and in 2002 and it basically allows for accelerated business tax deduction on a large asset over an accelerated period of time versus over the duration or the lifetime of the actual asset. [00:04:30] Real estate is a great example of that. In 2023, you have bonus depreciation of up to 80 percent that can be taken advantage of, and then it drops to 60 percent in 2024, 40.25%, 26%, and 0% thereafter. However, a lot of these deductions, you may not want to take advantage of depending on where your revenues are at, so you can actually minimize your tax liability. [00:04:53] And so there's a lot of strategy around in different ways that a tax account or CPA will file your tax. And so that's where we see the variation what you mentioned about risky. There's certainly a wrong way to do taxes, but there isn't a right way or 1 way to submit your taxes. [00:05:09] And that's why you see a lot of different tax accounts and CPAs have different ways and strategies of submitting their clients' taxes.  [00:05:15] Jason: Okay. All right. What are some things that property managers should be paying attention to this time of year here at year end? Yeah. Max this out. [00:05:24] Mo: Yeah. All right. One thing that we always urge our clients is the tax season shouldn't be an annual kind of activity or flurry at the end of the year, but a lot of folks wind up doing is nobody really thinks about taxes until after the new year and it's February and you're looking at March and April when the tax deadline is due for both your business and your personal taxes. [00:05:44] And honestly, that isn't the best time that you should be thinking about it. You should be thinking about it throughout the duration of the year. You should have some accounting system that's keeping track of all your expenses with the path act that got enacted in 2015, real estate agents and brokers have some additional relief when it comes to business related purchases that got that made changes to the IRS section I believe 179 deduction. And for example. In the tax year 2023, you can expense or write off up to $28,900 of the price of a new car for the tax year in which you bought it another certain limits of the type of vehicle that qualifies for this tax break. However, these limits are part of allowable deductions. [00:06:21] And if you're thinking about your taxes throughout the year, certain decisions that you'll make about acquisitions or things that you may be purchasing for the business may make a material impact at the end of the year on kind of your tax implications. And it's important to keep a log of all your receipts, expenses and everything throughout the year. [00:06:37] A lot of times when clients wait until February to start putting together all the prep work and the receipts and everything for their expenses, a lot of times you'll miss things and we always suggest you should take your time and file an accurate return. Versus just trying to be beat the deadline and not get hit with a potential fine you have in April when the taxes are due, but you can always file for an extension. And if there is a tax liability that's assessed, there will be interest that will be accrued during that period of time. But again, it's better to be accurate and maximize your deductions versus being in a hurry. [00:07:08] Sarah: Got it. Are there any deductions or obvious tech strategies that you would recommend for property managers or real estate agents in general?  [00:07:18] Mo: Yeah great question. Some of the most common types of deductions for agents and brokers and property managers are marketing expenses, such as sales, open house signs, flyers, web development, business cards, mailers. [00:07:31] If you're leveraging a service, like DoorGrow, just consider real estate coaching and training. Those are considered education cost. Licensing and renewal fees. Things like association dues for MLSes, brokerage desk fees, any type of transportation kind of expenses, whether it be automobile maintenance or repairs, gas, mileage, travel, home office expenses, and even gifts, although there is a limit on gifts of a 25 dollar deduction for per client per year, and so there's a lot of different things that you can deduct. And a lot of times what happens is, you may be a broker or a property manager that's going to show a property and you need to go buy some flyers or handful flyers or something like there's some type of piece of marketing collateral. [00:08:13] And so you may go to FedEx and just use your credit card. And although at the time, it's registering in your head, that may be something that you forget to enter into the accounting system later. And so you're not leveraging that and as an actual viable business deduction. [00:08:26] And so this is why it's important that you're logging kind of your accounting activity and have a easy system to use something to use that's on the go as well. So you can easily kind of catalog and log these expenses. All these minor costs add up over time. And, you need to make accounts so you can maximize your deductions here. [00:08:43] Okay.  [00:08:43] Jason: What do you think is the easiest system to use?  [00:08:46] Mo: To stay away from words of easiest system or things like that, because it's very subjective, right? It's, we're all creatures of kind of habit. And some folks are tethered to their phones and are okay with using a litany of different applications. [00:08:57] A lot of our clients will use kind of QuickBooks for their management system, and for their to manage the kind of their corporate books, there is a mobile app can easily log things as you're going. You can connect that directly to your bank account and your credit card. And so as transactions occur, you can make sure that those are logged correctly. [00:09:13] I would say that, having a system that has an integration to whatever banking and credit cards that you're using and reconciling that account on a monthly basis to ensure that you're logging all the transaction. And then also keep in mind in scenarios where you're paying out of pocket for something or loaning something to the business, even though you may be the sole owner and want to take advantage of those. [00:09:33] There's a lot of different pieces of software that are out there that can help with that. We usually suggest for clients is, if you're already using some type of a property management and accounting system to manage your business, let's say Appfolio, there is a way to also manage your corporate books. [00:09:45] A lot of these property based accounting systems also have the ability to manage your corporate books. And it's not only specifically for real estate. They're an accounting system at the end of the day. And you can just create kind of things like a fictitious property labeled your corporate business and run all your financials and keep track of your finances that way. [00:10:02] Sarah: Now would be a really good time to send a reminder to property managers that your property management software is probably not the best software to do your internal accounting. So a lot of times clients are like, "Oh yeah, I have software for that. I use Rent Manager or Appfolio or Buildium. And that's fantastic to manage your client's accounts, but it's not the best system to like internally manage your accounting, it's not going to have the same functionality as something like QuickBooks would.  [00:10:36] Jason: But you're saying some that's what they do. [00:10:39] They use a lot. That's what they do.  [00:10:41] Mo: What I'm saying is that so these accounting systems. So the main difference. So if you think about something like a QuickBooks, it's a general accounting system. So it's meant for any business. The chart of accounts is very malleable, if you will, something like property based accounting system there is no such thing as like a business. There's a property, there's tenants, there's owners, there's vendors. Now, you can finagle or manipulate and come up with work around so that you can manage your books there. However, you'll have kind of an entire different chart of accounts for your corporate business, which would be different than, what shows up on the financial owners. [00:11:13] And so there's a trade off. You can use another system that's maybe tailored specifically to your business, like a QuickBooks and you have the flexibility of things like integrating credit cards and stuff, which is a nuance when you come to property based accounting systems. But then you have to manage 2 different platforms, or you can figure out some work arounds and try to manage and keep track of your financials in 1 of these property based accounting systems. [00:11:35] But then have to keep in mind about some of these work arounds, like reconciling, like a credit card, which isn't the same thing as reconciling like a bank account. But. So there are trade offs. But I think what's most important is, what we say having a single source of accounting truth I think that's probably what one of the biggest things that a lot of businesses struggle with, especially when it comes to tax season. Is that. " Oh, I have a bunch of receipts and stuff that are in my inbox. I have some screenshots on my iPhone. I have, this random Google Drive folder with other information. I need to call Sally, who's my, maintenance supervisor or whatever about some other transactions and stuff," and there isn't a single place of accounting truth. And having that will definitely save a lot of time, especially when it comes to prep.  [00:12:15] Jason: I would think that grown up property managers are probably at least using something like QuickBooks because at some point they really should be on the NARPM standard accounting, standard of accounting chart of accounts. There's just some advantages. [00:12:29] Especially if they're wanting to exit that business someday, having clean books that are not commingled with your client's stuff inside Appfolio, for example, would make your business a lot more appealing and you'd probably fetch a prettier penny.  [00:12:44] Sarah: And I think a lot of times people think, "Oh this is an accounting software because it does all of the accounting for my clients." [00:12:50] And there are differences for sure between how your PM software and how something like QuickBooks doesn't have to be QuickBooks, but we use QuickBooks. I like it and I can use it and I don't like technology. So something like QuickBooks functions, there are differences. And the other thing to keep in mind is if you have a team and your team has access to your property management software and you're putting all of your bookkeeping and accounting and financial data in there, your team has access to it and you may or may not want that. Some people might be very open and they have an open books policy and they don't care at all. [00:13:30] Some people, they hear that idea and they go, "there is no way I would do that." So if you're one of these people who's using your property management software as your own internal accounting system, you might want to think about doing that maybe a little differently.  [00:13:44] Jason: I think this is where there's a challenge in business and in this industry that a lot of business owners don't recognize the differentiator between all these systems that you need in order to run a business. [00:13:55] You definitely need something like Property Ware, Appfolio, Buildium and Rent Manager, Rent Vine, whatever as a back office. And as a billing system as the main system for getting paid basically, and then you need an accounting and financial system. And those are different, the accounting and financial system, you need a system for how to manage money, how to do finances. So for example, Profit First is a nice baby step for a lot of businesses that are just getting started and have Frankenstein accounting as Mike Michalowicz calls it, and then you need a sales CRM system, which is usually very different than the CRM, which they're calling their back office where it's focused on bringing clients into the business. They're like "I have a CRM. It's Appfolio." And it's not the same thing. And and then there's several other systems that you need in a business process system, planning systems, et cetera. [00:14:47] When people start to think that they have a one system, they're like "I've got Appfolio, so I've got every system I need." This is where they struggle then to be able to scale their business because they don't have the knowledge, the insights and the transparency that they would need in order to get to the next level. [00:15:03] And they don't have the right tool to do all these other jobs. It's not the Swiss army knife. And what's funny is I sometimes equate this to the little multi tool that a handyman might have on his belt. If a handyman shows up with only a multi tool instead of a toolbox to do a job, the property manager is probably not going to call that guy back. [00:15:23] "Oh yeah, I've got a hammer. It's right here." It's not the same. It's not the same. So same thing in business. You can't just run it off of one system. There's no magic one system. Everybody has to build a stack of tools. I'm sure in your business, you have a stack of tools that use as well. [00:15:37] You don't have just one system, right?  [00:15:39] Mo: That's right. It's all about using the best tool using the best tool to get the job done. That's an example that you mentioned about the handyman. At least when it comes to business, it's a huge cost when it comes with time and you're going to pay for everything in business, whether it's going to be in time or in cash. And where you take shortcuts on investing in certain systems, you're going to pay for it in the amount of additional time it's going to take for work arounds and manual things and processes, which is also brings up another point that we always stress to our clients is always consistently read like evaluating the business and your processes and the tooling that's being used so that you can constantly as we say, evolve forward. [00:16:15] Jason: Yeah, it's interesting. I had a mentor and he taught me this concept he called the five currencies. And basically there's five currencies you have to invest in life and in business. And it's time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. And what's funny is there's you get early on stage entrepreneurs that I think are trying to just avoid cash. [00:16:35] They're like, "I want to be cheap. I want to not spend money." And these are the ones that struggle to grow the most because they don't understand that their money is something that you can renew and earn. But time, as far as our life goes, is the scarcest resource. And what's really crazy to me is that our team members, we're buying their life. We're buying chunks of their time. They're trading time of their life for money. And they're trading probably the cheapest commodity for the best, or the trade and the best commodity for the easiest to get it seems like, but that's where they're at. And so as entrepreneurs, our goal is to move beyond just giving up our time and to get money. [00:17:16] And, we can invest more effort. We can invest more focus. We can limit the stuff we're focused on to grow faster, but in business, same thing with these tools, if we think we are saving money by only using one tool, we've got our crappy multi tool instead of building the ultimate stack, [00:17:36] then usually they just end up spending more on payroll. There's having to buy more time to do less stuff. And get less stuff done. So technology is a lot cheaper than people. That's I'm sure everyone listening realizes that, but.  [00:17:49] Mo: Yeah, there's a difference in business when you're looking at things from the lens of a perspective of an expense, versus looking at the total cost of ownership for a particular solution or process or something like that. [00:18:02] And and and in that regard, you can actually, assess the amount of time that's wasted and there's always going to be some opportunity cost. You are a business owner, nobody gets into real estate because they want to do accounting or because they want to work on taxes and whatnot. [00:18:16] And so there are professionals out there who's, sole service and focus and business models is focused on that. And and that's not something that's going to differentiate you from your competition. So those things that are not going to differentiate you, those are the things you should be outsourcing and the things that you should be seeking help to take off your plate. [00:18:31] So you can focus on the things that actually drive your business forward. And allow for you to be able to grow your portfolio.  [00:18:37] Sarah: Yeah, for sure. All right. Now I know this won't be the same for everyone because taxes is this crazy like mishmash of information and what works for you might not work for me and vice versa. Knowing that there's no one size fits all here. We're not shopping like off the rack. This is all tailored. What are some strategies that property managers should at least look into? Now, it might not make sense for everybody, but what are some things that they should at least look into and see "hey, does this make sense for me to implement this? I love learning right? So I love learning especially like how I can save money on taxes. So what are some ways that they can look into and see if it's right for them?  [00:19:18] Mo: Reducing their tax liability Yeah, no, great question. . Of the biggest nuances are just things in accounting is that, there's no such thing as being a creative accountant, right? There's always a right way to do things. [00:19:27] But there isn't just one right way to structure your business. And so one thing that we see a lot of clients struggle with is, they'll create a business initially, most folks don't start off in property management or they're either doing, they either own a brokerage firm or they're an agent and whatnot and they're doing actual real estate sales. [00:19:45] And then they'll try to, get into property management and maybe they have also they're doing in house maintenance and whatnot and maybe like a leasing only service and and maybe they also have assets on the side that they own themselves. And one common-  [00:19:56] Sarah: yeah. They're like, "I do all of these things." [00:19:59] Mo: I do all of these things, but they're doing it all under one entity. And so it's " hey, you should have a separate entity and LLC. There are liability reasons or mitigation for liability that you want to do this. And also, there are some potential tax benefits you can have an actual main corporation and you can have a sub entity or an LLC." That's your brokerage business. A separate LLC, that's the property management business. A separate LLC, that's the leasing only business. Separate LLC, that's the maintenance only business. And that, for example, that corporation can tax each of those sub LLCs, like a licensing cost, just to be able to actually use the name. [00:20:32] Of course, it may be the same ownership structure, but that's a potential way of of having a tax savings. A great example is you have the largest Companies like Apple and Nike and stuff like that, they have separate entities that are outside the US that tax licensing fees, just to use like the check mark with the entity that exists, that's actually transacting with the customers. [00:20:49] And then the other benefit of having all these entities that are separated out is that if you ever want to have a portion of the business that you wanna sell, you can demonstrate what the profitability, the profit and loss looks for that business. And you can have a separate valuation metric for that particular business and spin it off, especially if you have assets of your own, you want to have that in a separate entity, because you'll be able to take advantage of bonus depreciation. And that bonus depreciation essentially allows for you to be able to, take a rental property and take an immediate 1st year kind of deduction. If it's in 2023, you can start at 80 percent and whatever the bottom net losses on that particular asset, or that particular business that owns that asset that can now be offset the excess income. That's liable to taxes to offset against another entity. And so there's some strategies around that. There's also ways to be able to loan a particular asset or for example, if you have a car, you can rent it out to 1 of the entities, even though it may be the same individual that's using it. [00:21:49] There's a way to structure your taxes so that. Even if you own the property, you can technically lease it to 1 of the other entities and that can be a business expense and write off against another against 1 of your other entities. And so there's a lot of kind of small things like that that can make a material difference when collectively put together. But what it will ultimately we suggested something that we don't see too much. And usually we see a lot of clients struggling with is rather than having all your different enterprises and your sales activities, just revenue generating activities wrapped up into 1 entity to separate them out based on business lines. [00:22:22] And this also gives you as an owner perspective on what is working, what is not what needs help and attention and things that sort of be a little bit more prescriptive and data driven and how you make those decisions.  [00:22:32] Sarah: Like that. For sure. Yeah. And then it's. Different P and L's to see, "Hey, what part is actually profitable here and what part, if any, is taking a loss. Where does my attention actually need to be? Because what makes me the most money?" Instead of going "I think this looks pretty good."  [00:22:47] Jason: Things get mixed up. People make bad decisions. It's funny. Just for example, we'll get somebody that says, "oh yeah, I'm getting plenty of leads" and they're spending thousands of dollars on internet marketing. [00:22:57] And I'm like, cool. And they justify it. But I say, "where are you getting the leads from?" The majority were word of mouth. And so you're spending a bunch of money and I'm like, "cool, let's separate this out. What's your acquisition costs on ones you can attribute to the internet marketing stuff you're doing? [00:23:11] And sometimes they're like, "Oh yeah, it's 3- 400 a unit to like, to get on a client." And I'm like, that's ridiculous. And then they're like, "cool. I'll sign up for DoorGrow." I'm curious about the education costs and here at the end of the year, how do we help people justify signing up with DoorGrow leveraging education costs and getting that tax deduction? [00:23:33] Sarah: Such a good question because that's R and D! Research and development.  [00:23:36] Mo: Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Real estate coaching training and education costs is considered an expense. It can be considered a deductible expense at the end of the day, especially a lot of the insight and kind of value that you guys add to the community is something that I think is priceless. [00:23:52] And if it's going to make a material impact to clients, bottom line, the thing is that none of us can be experts in everything. And so kinda the reality in business is you can learn in two ways. You can either learn from somebody else's mistakes or learnings, or you can learn the hard way yourself. [00:24:05] The latter is going to take more time, which you're not going to get back. And so the folks that are able to accelerate and grow their business, take advantage of like coaching and training and educational type of costs, I would say, "how do you justify that expense?" At the end of the year, if you're going to have an excess of income, that's going to be tax liable. And in these educational costs, and so you might as well invest instead of giving that money to Uncle Sam, give it to Uncle Jason and find a way to maximize and grow that kind of that ROI. I would say that's probably something that a lot of novice kind of entrepreneurs don't probably put too much emphasis on when they're 1st, embarking on their entrepreneurial journey it's just the importance and significance of education and insight, especially from those that have blazed the path before you, or have exposure to a lot of other folks that are in your same shoes.  [00:24:49] Jason: It really is probably one of my greatest secrets in how we've scaled and built DoorGrow and the success we've had is once I finally stopped being the idiot that thought they could do everything and watch all the videos on YouTube and read books and figure it out myself. [00:25:05] I started to collapse time significantly when I got coaches and mentors and we shell out a lot of money to coaches and mentors and I've got some amazing ones right now, like really amazing coaches and mentors. And what it does is, yes, I'm spending more money, but I'm decreasing time. So it's collapsing time for me significantly. [00:25:24] I'm making a lot less mistakes. I'm not having to figure it out because every stage of business, you're stepping into the dark. And it's nice if somebody has already been there before you 'cause they're not in the dark about it. So they're like, "Oh yeah, just do this and do this. I've already tried that and that, and it doesn't work." And I was like, that's what I was going to do. And the same thing, the majority of the people that come to me are like, "I'm having trouble growing my business." And I'm like, "cool. What do you, what have you been trying? Or what are you planning to do at the startup stage?" [00:25:50] They're like, "I'm going to do internet marketing and SEO, pay per click," they're going to do everything. All the biggest companies that they're competing with are already spending way more money than them doing it. And they're just going to do it worse. And that's their strategy. "I'm going to do what the big companies are doing, but worse. And I'm going to try and charge less money. I'll be cheaper. And I will somehow provide better service." And I'm like, "good luck with that." And so we don't know what we don't know. And we make mistakes at each stage. And the secret to collapsing time is to spend money and invest in yourself. You get that back. [00:26:21] There's a big ROI. All right. Thanks for helping us sell door. I appreciate it.  [00:26:24] Sarah: All right. So if you're looking for tax write offs at the end of the year, sign up with DoorGrow, we can help. Yeah. Don't give your money to the government.  [00:26:31] Jason: And then we'll help you make more money. Nobody stays with us unless we're helping them make more money. [00:26:36] Sarah: Yeah, they haven't helped me yet.  [00:26:38] Jason: Taxes are not giving you an ROI.  [00:26:39] Sarah: Next year when we audited them, they're like..  [00:26:42] Mo: Another thing that I wanted to comment on, actually, a lot of people may not be aware of is between the COVID period of time, there's a Biden had released this this new initiative to be able to give back payable taxes. [00:26:53] And so if you had full time employees, between 2020 and 2021, I think it's up to $25,000 for each employee for each year, and that you can potentially be entitled to up to that amount. And so if you had full time employees, and that's free money, that's not free money. Technically, those are Payroll taxes that your organization already paid, but the government is literally just give it back to you as part of this initiative. [00:27:16] I'll take my payroll taxes back. That sounds great. The only requirement is that you had, you kept people on full time payroll during the 2020, 2021 year. And that those folks were with you for at least a year. And that those were actual W2 employees, not 1099.  [00:27:31] Jason: Okay. That's worth talking about it. [00:27:34] Oh, she's up on all this.  [00:27:37] Sarah: I don't know. Did you think I would have missed that? Okay. I'm telling you, I'm like-  [00:27:43] Jason: She has some strange hobbies. Alright. I do, I know. Mo this has been really interesting. I appreciate you coming and hanging out on the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your company and how you can help people with some of this stuff if they're listening to all this going, "man, this is a bunch of gobbledygook I really could use help making this all make sense, and I thought Appfolio was an accounting system for my business" and they're just trying to figure it all out. How can they get ahold of you?  [00:28:07] Mo: Great question. Before I comment on that, one, one thing that I do want to the misconception of Hey, just because you bought accounting software doesn't mean you bought accounting experts. [00:28:14] Sarah: Okay. Oh, that's so good. I love, I'm going to use that.  [00:28:18] Jason: The experts are worth a lot more to me than software.  [00:28:22] Mo: And usually there'll be priced a lot higher too, because the software, the proper application of it, it's like buying, It's like buying a seesaw or hammer or some tool, it's much cheaper to actually buy the tool versus buying or having the expert that's actually going to be utilizing the tool to build whatever. The peace of mind to me is priceless. So it is. I lead a group, a consulting group balance asset solutions been over for a little bit over 7 years. We are a CPA and technology advisory firm assisting clients with accounting, CFO services, like taxes, acquisition, disposition strategy, software implementations we're partners with a lot of the accounting systems like Yardi, and Appfolio, and Propertyware, and Buildium. We also help with Department of Real Estate audits and forensic accounting customer reporting, fund management. We're here to help maximize the value out of your subscription, streamline your business with technology and software, and give you time back to spend on the things that matter to your business, which is growing kind of your top line and working with your tenants and owners. We have clients in over 35 states and we have deep expertise when it comes to the trust accounting gap, the department of real estate compliance representation. So consultations are free and you can find us online at www. balancedassetsolutions. com.  [00:29:33] Jason: Man, that's an awesome combo, nerdy accountants. [00:29:36] That's like the best combo ever, right? All right. Super cool. All right. So hopefully some people are reaching out to you right now when they're watching this and we appreciate you coming on the show.  [00:29:46] Mo: Of course. Thank you so much, Jason. Take care.  [00:29:48] Jason: All right. Take care. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business, reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:29:54] We would love to help you out. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com and join our free Facebook group at doorgrowclub.Com. Bye everyone. [00:30:00] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:26] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode, we're diving into the world of pitching, but not as you know it. Forget the dread and discomfort often associated with pitching; with our guest, Rachel Allen, we're exploring how to turn it into a process of genuine connection and growth. You'll discover why pitching feels challenging, how to embrace it authentically, and strategies tailored for introverted solopreneurs. We're also covering practical tips on tracking your pitching efforts in a simple, effective way. If you've ever wondered how to pitch in a way that feels true to you and builds lasting relationships, this is the conversation for you. Join us as we learn to navigate the balance between effective pitching and maintaining our authenticity, all while growing our businesses in a humane way. In this episode, Rachel shares: Why we hate pitching and how to change that How to pitch authentically That pitching is actually about creating relationships Pitching strategies for introverts How and what to track when pitching, the simple way and much more…   --   Ep 183 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Rachel. Good to see you, and welcome to the humane marketing podcast. It's a delight to have you here. Rachel: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I know we've wanted to talk about this for, what, over a year, I think. Um, so I'm excited that we're finally able to to make our schedules match. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We've talked about different versions of this. And so, uh, in the end, we Decided to, um, talk about pitching, which I think is so relevant. And and in in a way, I think maybe it's because I kept Seeing was it you or someone else? You know, all kinds of people always post about the pitches that they get on LinkedIn and and how wrong they are and and all of that. So I'm like, yeah. That's a that's a good topic because We wanted to talk about pitching, but not just about how it's bad, but how you can actually do it in a way that [00:01:00] feels Ethically good and humane. So I think the the title of the podcast, I called it Humane Pitching. Ching. So let's dive into that and and how that would look like. Because I do think it's a it's a relevant business It's, um, tactic to understand, uh, how to work it. And and and so you specialize in that because you're really good with words. And and so you I approached you to come on to the come come on to the podcast, but then also come to the community and and, uh, do a collab workshop on the topic of humane pitching. So so why don't we start with kind of your experience with Pitching, but also with receiving pitches and how that changed, maybe how you approach them and how you teach them. Rachel: Yeah. Oh, I love that. So my experience with pitching is actually a little bit of a sandwich. Um, I before I [00:02:00] did Uh, online marketing. I was a journalist. And so my initial experience with pitching was actually writing and receiving press releases And, um, understanding how to pitch articles in that kind of environment. I never really thought I would use that again until I started doing online marketing and started getting all of these really Bad pitches where I was it would be people who clearly had, you know, even gotten the basics wrong. Like, they'd misspelled my name, or, um, Um, you could tell that they just copy pasted the same thing to a thousand people. Or my favorites would be the ones who, um, they would try to sell me something like drop shipping. And I'm like, I'm a marketer. What am I gonna drop ship? Like, I don't have merchandise. That's nice. So I would see these and be like, That's dumb. I should do something about it. And then, uh, last year, I finally was like, okay. It's time. Because I kept I saw this big wave of ones coming up again because of our the shifts that we're having in our, uh, demographic online. And so I was like, okay. I'm [00:03:00] gonna just Fix this once and for all and teach a podcast teach a teach a workshop called pitching for people who hate pitching. And, um, in preparation for that, I worked out a methodology for myself where I pitch 10 ish or so podcasts a week. It takes me about 30 minutes a day, the if that much. And most of all, it's just it feels like human to human conversations. Nobody walks out of this interaction feeling bad, Which was my priority for creating it. Sarah: Yeah. That's great. And I think pitching for podcasts is a great example. Right? That's As a podcast host, I probably receive sometimes, like, once 1 per day and and other, You know, other weeks is, like, at 2 per week. And and there's the occasional 1, like, once in a blue moon that I'm like, okay. Yeah. This feels authentic. But most of them, um, just yeah. Not even not even replying anymore, I have to [00:04:00] admit. I'm like, I just don't have the energy to reply or or teach them something. Um, actually, it's funny because I'm I'm gonna grab my phone. Just before We got on the on the call. I received 1. And that's kind of the new the new way, I think, of doing it, Uh, where they pretend that they're, like, your biggest fan, and they'll pick 1 episode that they really loved apparently, and they're They shared it with their team. So he's like, yeah. We shared it with it with my team. And then it's like, I'm wondering if you'd be open to, uh, being introduced to someone in I know in the SaaS space. I'm like, SaaS space. Like, I I okay. I have nothing against technology and, you know, All that, but had it has nothing to do with the other episodes that I'm I'm usually posting. So, clearly, that kind of, like, warming up, Bo, I know you so well. I'm your biggest fan. It just feels so fake. Right? And and [00:05:00] I have to admit that, like, for a mini Split of a second, I'm like, oh, that's nice because your ego goes it's like, oh, yeah. That that feels good. But then you're like, Wait a minute. No. This is not real. Right? And and so there it feels like there's these waves of Kind of pitching advice that goes out. Uh, I don't know who teaches them anymore. Like, it used to be the Neil Patel's, and Hopefully, they have evolved a little bit. So now it's other people who are teaching these strategies where it's just kinda like you can tell, oh, This is you know, this person has attended this program, and then it's all Mhmm. Feels the same. So I'm really curious what You are teaching how that is different, and you kind of hinted at is the relationship building. So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well, Rachel: like you said, the the main core focus when I teach this workshop, I tell people, here here's the way you [00:06:00] make this work for you. Your metric of success is not how many yeses you get. It's how many questions you ask. And so we immediately take the, like, the need for the other person to do something off the table. The And this is only on you. Are you going to get more guesses the more you do this? Of course, you will. But I like doing I like teaching it this way because it takes the pressure off of Every ask should have to be, like, so perfect because it has to be a yes. And it also takes the pressure off the other person because whatever they do, you've already won. You filled out another line on your spreadsheet. You've done a good job. So it makes it just psychologically easier on everybody involved. And then the way that we actually do this outreach Is we, um, reach out to people that are screened. So I teach you how to prescreen for people that are actually a good fit. I have an absolute no for this, like, Carpet bombing approach where you're just like, let me invite all my Facebook friends. You know? That's terrible. Nobody likes that. Right. And, uh, we have a structure Where we actually, um, we have the same pitching [00:07:00] templates that you sort of start from every time. So you don't have to, like, go through the blank page every single time. But you tweak it specifically for every single person that you reach out to. And, um, it includes, you know, like you said, some personal not like Creepy personal information, but it shows that you've actually, like, looked at their stuff. And, um, it puts the focus on what you can bring to them. So it's not reaching out to somebody and saying, hey. Give me something. It's saying, hey. I have something to offer. Do you think that might be a fit for us? Let's talk about that. Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, like, in in the marketing, like, we're human program, 1 1 of the bonuses is a podcast, Uh, 1 sheeter as a bonus. So so, um, I feel like when you come Paired. So the people who come to me with a pitch where I feel like, oh, they've they've actually listened to the or 1 specific episode. And then they propose something that is related [00:08:00] to that episode, and they give me bullet points Of what they could be speaking about, that to me is an easy yes. You know? Obviously, yes. I'm gonna go look at their website and see if it's a good fit, But it makes it easy for me as the host to Mhmm. To say yes to it rather than, like, this guy, would you be open to Like, no. Like, that is too much work for me to then figure out, well, who's he gonna suggest? Uh, all this research that I have to do, I'm like, no. Thank you. So, um, what what you're saying basically is, yes, come prepared. And so, obviously, if you have a 1 1, um, 1 sheeter for for for you as the as the guest or or I think even better, and and that's really what stands out, is is the Bullet points. Like, here's what I could be talking about. Right? That makes it really easy. So in terms of podcasting, That makes a lot of [00:09:00] sense because you you actually do come and offer something. Right? You offer your expertise to be a guest on the podcast. Let's talk about pitching in other, um, topics. Like, if I'm gonna come and pitch myself as as a provider of my services. How would you do it there? It becomes a bit more tricky. Right? Rachel: Yeah. So it's you can use the same structure. It's just a little bit different in terms of the information that you put into it. So I love the way you were you were framing this. It's like, basically, every pitch is is generosity. It's a gift. It's like, what can I give to you to start up this relationship? And it's the exact same thing with your services. So what I recommend people do is don't just reach out and say, like, hey. I'm a copywriter. Do you have work? No. Leave me alone. Like, of course not. But if you say, hey. I've been following your site. Like, I think your social media is amazing. I have noticed this 1 thing, And I'm curious if you do it, like, do you have a reason for it? [00:10:00] If not, like, here's what I might suggest, and I'm very careful to teach people. Like, you don't wanna, Like, bash on them. It's not like, wow. You could be so great if only your social media wasn't garbage. Let me fix that. It's terrible. No. Don't do that. Instead, it's like, hey. I think it became really cool if you tried this idea and just tell them. Like, let them tell them the strategy. Let them go try it if they want. And you say, If you wanna talk about that, I'm happy to talk about it. I love to help out. That's something that I do. And then you give a couple of little bullet points of, like, here's what that could look like. And, again, not it's not like fresh and read. It's not pushy. It's just like, hey. Here's what I do. Here's what that could look like. Do you wanna talk about that? And that's that. It's not like buy my thing or watch your business go up in flames. No 1 likes those Sarah: things. Yeah. Exactly. The the kind of negative, You know, voice and and and then I'm like, oh, but I have the solution, and let me let me help you. It's like, well, thank you very much, but no. Rachel: That's so condescending too. Right? Because you go [00:11:00] in assuming that they don't know what they're doing wrong or if they don't have a reason for doing it differently than what you might recommend. So it's to this, like, just with this commitment to see the other person as just as human as you are and assuming that they know they probably do know what they're doing. And you can come to the table as equals and maybe find a way forward that's better or different or get some different results. But it's not about you coming in and fixing somebody's problem because, Like, what's the first thing anybody does? Even if you know you're doing something wrong and if somebody comes up and they're like, I can help you. You're like, leave me alone. I'm Sarah: fine. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. No. It it's very human to be then self defensive and go, well, yeah, to who asked you for advice? Right? So so it really needs to be wrapped in this generosity, um, kind of package where it's like Yeah. Where where it doesn't feel like they they just wanna teach me something, um, and then charge me for it, but really, like, yeah. Hey. Let's Let's have a [00:12:00] look at how how this could help you and and then not in a way where probably also it means, like, you need to be okay to not charge for Yeah. This first interaction. Right? It really should be generous and therefore free. Rachel: Mhmm. And I think that's something that I I encourage people to think about when they're in the workshop. I'm like, you need to think about your capacity for this as well. Yeah. So I encourage people to always lead with generosity, to think of it as a relationship building exercise that happens to have the side effect of you get more work And you get, you know, different work and you get more of what you want. But the main focus always has to be on the person and the relationship. And it sounds counterintuitive, especially in the way that pitching is normally taught, which is, you know, hey, b, c, always be closing. Right. Yeah. But we're humans. You know? We're not doing multinational corporation deals. We're talking to people, usually 1 on 1 or 1 to a small team. It's so much more effective to have a [00:13:00] relationship with someone and be open to where that might lead because the kind of cool thing is If you come in with a preconceived idea of how your relationship is gonna end up, that may actually be, like, way smaller than what it could become. I've definitely had interactions with people where I was like, oh, I think maybe they'll end up becoming, like, a monthly blog client. And then it's like, just kidding. We're gonna do fractional CMO work. And if I had come in saying, like, I'm gonna do your blogs, k, then I would have never thought to expand this much more larger and rewarding work. Sarah: Right. Another thing you just brought up is this idea of relationship. Right? And what came up for me is, like, well, also Don't necessarily see this 1 on 1 relationship as kind of a 1 way road. And and, like, this is Gotta have to turn into a client. It could just stay at the relationship level and then bring clients through referral, for example. Right? Because [00:14:00] you have created something beautiful. You've given your work for free. The person doesn't need You right now or maybe they don't have the budget. But having created this awe moment then leads this person to refer you to Well, her friends. Right? And so it's like, if you go in and it's just like, oh, it needs to be a yes from this person, Then you're basically closing on all your other avenues, uh, as well. Rachel: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I'm so glad that you articulated that. I think Curiosity is such a big part of this as well. Just like, I don't know what's gonna happen when we sit down and talk. You know, we're people. Humans are inherently unpredictable. Who knows? But let's find out. Yeah. Sarah: Well, I happen to know that you are also an introvert. And so it feels like, uh, You know, that that pitching, I think, just a word pitching introverts probably go, oh, no. Thank you. Right? So how can This how can we [00:15:00] make this even better for introverts? Like, that it doesn't feel So dreadful. Um, what do you Rachel: suggest? So when I think, you know, Love the word pitching. I think of being at 1 of those horrible networking events where you have to go around and shake everybody's hand and be like, oh, we have not, you know, very high energy. Sounds terrible. That's exhausting. I hate those. I don't do them. So what I recommend instead with this, um, is, First of all, to just remove attachment to the outcome, which I know we've talked about. But I I think as an introvert, that makes it easier for me because then it's not like, Oh, I have to put my extrovert face on. It's more like, no. I'm here. This is how I talk. This is who I am. Let's see what happens. Another thing I remind people always is that you don't have to respond at the very second somebody responds to you. These conversations take a long time. You know, they're time it takes time to build. So I see people get very anxious about their response time when they send out is like, oh, but if they email me that grand [00:16:00] way, I have to email them back or else we're gonna lose it. And no. You know, don't if you don't want to. It's your business. No one's making you do anything. And another element of this is I always encourage people to write the way that they talk. A lot of times, Uh, as an introvert, it can be exhausting if I have to go and pretend to be more high energy or more whatever than I am. But if I just write an email that sounds exactly like me, it doesn't have to sound sales y. It doesn't have to do anything except say, hey. This is who I am. Do you want to talk? That's a lot lower of a bar than having to feel like I'm doing the email equivalent of, like, getting my hair done and putting on a full face of makeup out of Fancy clothes and then going to talk to people. So, um, oh, and the final thing is you don't have to do this all the time. Like, I do it, um, I do it usually daily because that's just easy for me, but there's also been times in my business where I've pitched very intensively for, like, 6 weeks and then ignored it for the rest of the year. So you can also gear it to [00:17:00] your own cycles of higher energy and when you have more resources to to be sort of more outward facing. Sarah: Yeah. I love that. Um, and I and I'll admit, I'm definitely not as regular as as you are. Um, I think I haven't Hitched any podcast in, like, probably more than a year. But I do know when the the third book comes out sometime down the road. That's what I'll do. Right? And then I get very focused, and I can you know, I I get into this pitching mode. And, yeah, it feels good. It feels like, okay. I'm doing something very focused here. And it reminds me of a spreadsheet that that I then use. So so I guess kind of the the wrapping up question is, like, well, Do you, yeah, do you suggest any kind of tracking method? How do you know whom you've already pitched? Worst Case is probably when you pitch [00:18:00] someone this the second time, and they're like, hey. You just sent me this 6 months ago. So what what kind of, uh, yeah, tools do you you recommend people use, if any? Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely recommend a tracker. So we get to that's about, like, 2 thirds of the way through the workshop, and I'm like, okay. Everybody just gonna get real sad for a minute because we're having to talk about metrics. Yeah. But Actually, it can be fun. It can be nice. I've, uh, I created a spreadsheet tracker that I share with everybody. I also have a Notion 1 that I use just I keep all my business stuff in Notion that I also share the template. And, um, what I always tell everyone is that, like, yes. I know we don't like Spreadsheets, but this 1 is colored. It has pretty colors everywhere. It's nice. It's a friendly spreadsheet. I love that. Um, we track as much information as we need 2, but no more. Because I also see people that either don't wanna track anything at all, and they're like, I'll just I'll just let the the ether of the Internet tell me what to do. Or They go the other 1. They're like, well, if I don't know their Social Security number, have I even kept [00:19:00] track? And I'm like, no. You need their name. You need the last time they talk you talk to them, And you need, um, like, whether they're a yes or a no in their website. That's it. That's all you need. And so as long as you can keep up with those 4 things, like, that's all you need for the tracking. Sarah: Right. Yeah. And and so maybe to come full circle, what you said at the beginning of the the episode is, like, It doesn't matter whether it's a yes or no. What matters is that you reached out. Right? And so we're not really Tracking so much the yeses, but more we're more tracking that we've done it. Is is that Rachel: correct? Yeah. So you track how you've done it. And then I always I also recommend people to take, after about 3 months, to, uh, track how you feel about it. Like, does this feel good to you? Are you getting what you want out of this? If so, fantastic. Keep doing it. If not, then that's a really good sign that you can make a change Because there's no 1 right or wrong way to do this. There's just the way that you make conversation and the way that [00:20:00] you reach out to people. So I always encourage people to Track those qualitative metrics over time as well. Sarah: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense to feel into it because if it if it feels exhausting Sting and you're having all these 1 on 1 conversations. And at the same time, you need to give it some time. Right? Yeah. So it's like, well, just by doing it 3 weeks is not gonna make your business explode. So it's kinda like use Common sense and and and maybe, yeah, do less of it, but keep consistency. So just, Yeah. Adapt. Yeah. And readjust. Yeah. Exactly. Wonderful. Well, tell us a A little bit about your structure of the workshop that you're gonna be doing for us on March sixth. Oh, I'm so excited. Rachel: So we will come in, and we'll start by talking about, uh, why everyone hates pitching. And, um, I'll go through the 3 things that, Uh, not to do and 3 things to do. So we'll keep it really simple. [00:21:00] Um, and then we will go into strategy for pitching. So, uh, how to how to create a strategy that actually makes sense for you and gets you what you want in your business, and that's where the beautiful little spreadsheet comes in because, of course, we have to track our metrics. Uh, we will then go into creating your, uh, pitching template. And so this is kind of a it's a foundational letter That you write. And then you're gonna modify that slightly for each different person or podcast that you pitch to, but the general structure is always the same. So we'll talk through that, And then we'll wrap up with some, uh, information about vetting, you know, how to find where to find people, um, and what to do when you've actually got them. And, uh, I believe I'm trying to think. There's all sorts of resources attached to it at the end. So there's all kinds of gifts of, like, the the podcast trackers. Uh, I have a 1 sheet, Uh, thing as well, but they can they can use too if they want to. And then, uh, we also have something for a press release, and I feel like I threw some oh, yeah. I have a template For asking for, uh, testimonials and referrals that [00:22:00] I also throw in there as well. So we end with gifts. Oh, and, of course, I forgot the most important part. We do live feedback. So they will actually draft that letter while we're on the workshop together, and then they can get live feedback from me, uh, while they're on the workshop. Or if we're very introverted, and that sounds terrible, they can also email it to me afterwards, and we can just work on it via email. That's It's wonderful. Sarah: Yeah. Really, really looking forward to that. Thanks so much for for doing this. So, again, if you're listening to this and You're not yet part of the Humane Marketing Circle, you can still join us. And and so just go to humane dot marketing forward slash Workshop, and the page will be ready there. We're just asking for a donation, uh, between 15 and 27 dollars. But, yeah, we'd love to have you and, uh, workshop. You're pitching with us. I'm really looking forward to to that. Thanks so much, um, for doing this. And something just just came to mind, and it left me again.[00:23:00] What did it have to do with? Something that you said in the bonuses. 1 Rachel: sheet, press Sarah: releases. Yeah. Press releases. Exactly. Because we talked a lot about podcast pitching today, um, and then we talked about Service pitching. But you're right. There's the there's the testimonials. That's the other 1 you mentioned. In a way, that's a pitch too. Right? It's a pitch. It has this kind of sales connotation, but essentially, it's just an ask. It's Yeah. Asking for something, And that can be a testimonial. It can be for for, uh, yeah, an article that you want to have published. Um, any anything I'm forgetting? Rachel: Yeah. Like, referral asks. I do that a lot as well, um, and I encourage my clients to do it. Gosh. Anything. Uh, pitching to be to to teach a workshop in someone's space. I've done that a lot. I also teach, uh, like, continuing legal education. Uh, so I do legal marketing stuff [00:24:00] as well. So, uh, I'll pitch to law societies or bar associations and say, hey. I'd love to do a CLE for you. So There's I mean, it's really I love that you reframed it as an ask because that's really what it is. It's just, hey. Can we do this? Yeah. And that's so much easier to get behind than Give me something, which I think is most people approach pitching. Sarah: Yeah. Exactly. Can't wait. So Really? Yeah. Go Go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop and join us on March sixth because we're gonna have lots of fun and, uh, doing some serious work as well. So thanks so much, Rachel. Rachel: Uh, I love it. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

The property management industry tends to get busier during the Summer months and slow down as the holiday season begins. The colder months are the perfect time for property management entrepreneurs to work on their business instead of in it. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how utilizing strategic planning strategies can start your year off right. You'll Learn [01:22] Utilizing the beginning of the year [05:11] Making a plan “to escape property management hell” [11:12] Strategic time helps you grow the business [17:42] Using this time to maintain relationships  Tweetables “Strategic time is what actually grows businesses.” “As the world cools down, you should heat up.” “If you lay the right foundation and you get really prepared during these cooler months, you can have an amazing growth season during this coming summer.” “There's nothing in the business that you have to do personally.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you lay the right foundation and you get really prepared during these cooler months, you can have an amazing growth season during this coming summer.   [00:00:11] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. [00:00:28] DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:47] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We are your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:15] All right. So we were talking beforehand, "what should we talk about on today's podcast episode?" And what did we decide?  [00:01:22] Sarah: We decided to talk about the beginning of the year. And getting a plan together.  [00:01:28] Jason: Okay. So I've noticed over time doing this for over a decade, helping and supporting property managers, that property management ebbs and flows. It obviously heats up in the summer. You can even see this on Google trends. It's funny. If you look at the history for property management as a keyword, every summer it spikes, and then it cools down in the winter, right? In search volume, even though it hasn't grown really over the last decade. [00:01:54] And so what tends to happen is property managers, business owners, they get really busy during the summer, things heat up, things feel a little bit crazy, and then it cools down, and things get quiet, a little bit quiet. And what I've noticed is then the business owners start focusing on their business. [00:02:11] Then what happens is some holidays come, they've got Thanksgiving, they've got Christmas, and they start to get a little stir crazy... new years. And what I find is when business owners have idle time on their hands... what do you think they start doing? They start working on their businesses, right?  [00:02:31] All of you crazy entrepreneurs. That's what you start doing. You're like, "I'm going to entrepreneur some more." So you start working on your business even more. And so this is the time, this is the season. It's November 28th at the time we're recording this. And so we just had Thanksgiving and now we're going into these cooler months and there's going to be a slow down, less attention on, the property management stuff for a lot of you. [00:02:57] And that means you can be a business owner and you can start focusing on your business. Use this time. This is the season. This is the time for you to sharpen the ax, to make the business better, to improve things so that you can tackle and grow in the summer. Summer's the greatest time to be able to expand and grow your property management business. [00:03:20] There's a lot more turnover. A lot of owners are looking for additional help. They're not wanting to do this stuff. And if you are prepared, if you lay the right foundation and you get really prepared during these cooler months, you can have an amazing growth season during this coming summer.  [00:03:37] Sarah: So this is a really good time when things are slow and quiet and calm, this is a great time to start a new project. Summer not so much. Don't be switching team members, if you can help it. Don't be changing the business. Don't be implementing new systems or "Hey, I'm going to change my property management software." July is not a great time for that right now is a really great time for things like that. The projects that would rock the boat, as I call it in your business, this is a perfect time to do stuff like that. [00:04:11] Jason: So let's talk a little bit about planning, coming up with a plan. Because if you don't have a plan to succeed and you don't have a system that's going to work for you, then you might blow this season and waste it. And you're not going to have the growth or you're not going to get out of the day to day stuff that you've been holding onto for the last year and the year before that. [00:04:35] And so the goal of a business, to remind you, is to give you more freedom. It's to give you more fulfillment. It's to give you a sense of contribution. It's to give you what you want and money helps with all those things, but you can make more money and have less of what I call the four reasons of fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support. You should be feeling more supported in your business the bigger it gets. You should be feeling more of a sense of making a difference and contributing to others. You should feel more of these things. If you're feeling less of these things and it's becoming a grind and you're getting burnt out, you're doing it wrong. [00:05:11] And so how do we make a plan to escape property management hell?  [00:05:15] Sarah: The million dollar question, right? I think one of the things that we do really well is, this is all part of DoorGrow OS, which is our operating system. If you are interested in implementing that system, you do have access to it, whether you're a mastermind client or not. You can see all of our softwares that we offer on our website. [00:05:33] But the thing that really helps keep us on track is just our cadence. So we do our annual planning. We do quarterly planning. We do monthly planning. We do weekly commitments. And we do this all the time without fail. There's never a point where we're like, "Oh we just won't do weekly planning today." [00:05:50] Never. We never do that. We always fit it in and this will help keep us moving forward. It will help keep us on track and it really sets the rhythm. And I will caution you against doing annual planning in January. Jason can talk a little bit more about that too. But if you just go into the new year, a lot of times, like this is just a fresh slate for us mentally because it starts a new, right? New Year's Eve. It's a new year. It's a new time. We're like, "okay, let's just forget about the previous year and move on." It's a clean slate mentally. So even if you're in the middle, like for us, this is technically the middle of our year. So January 1 is like quarter three for us. [00:06:36] So it's like the second half of the year, but still it's like this mental refresh. So even though we've already done our annual planning in June and we're now just in the second half of the same year fiscally we still get that reset and we might go, "okay, let's just take a break, take a breath, regroup, and then let's look at things again" and you know, "are we on track? Is there anything that we need to do differently? Are there things that we're lacking? Are there things that we can change?" Because right now, being that it's a slow season. Now oddly enough, it's not a slow season for us. Because when you guys have a slow season, then we pick up a lot. But for you guys, it's a great time to regroup and say, "okay, is there anything that we need to change that has been like a thorn in my side for a while? Let's get a plan together, implement that plan and get it done now and really start that year off with a bang." Cool. So why would someone not want to do their annual planning starting in December because everyone's going, "what? Like that makes so much sense. It's the beginning of the year."  [00:07:47] Jason: Yeah, I think, the biggest reason is, during this season where entrepreneurs like to focus more on their business, your team focus less on the business because it's the end of the year. They're focused on holidays and family. They're thinking about like travel and like whether they're going to have funds to pay for all the Christmas gifts and all the shopping they've got to do. It's like they start another job. And so they've started this other job of family and travel and holidays and they're not as productive a lot of times we're not as effective or as efficient. And this then is where most businesses do their annual planning and try to hit their year end goals. And at the year end, we want to have a big push towards our goals. Property management naturally heats up, but in general this ebb and flow happens for every business. [00:08:42] Things tend to cool down in the winter. And so what we want to do, what we do at DoorGrow and what we coach our clients to do is to offset by six months. And so we start our planning year on July 1st. And so that is the beginning of our first quarter for us in our planning year. And so if we do planning then in the summer, things are exciting. [00:09:07] There's like plenty of movement. We can do things, we can get things done. The team is energized. The team's energized instead of checked out. They've got plenty of bandwidth. There's no like significant holidays, like right in the middle of, June and July that they're focused on. They might want to take some vacation time or like travel or something like this, but they've got the bandwidth. [00:09:28] When it comes to Christmas and the holidays and thanksgiving and New Year's and all of this time period for us is just the middle of the year. So it's just a great time for us to as business owners to do a reset, take a look, "how are we doing towards our annual goals?" [00:09:44] Are we making progress? What do we need to adjust? And so we're just making adjustments. We're not trying to like, get the team to finally hit some goal at the end of the year.  [00:09:54] Sarah: "Hurry up! We still need 28 doors to get our goal, and we only have 32 days to do it." The team is like, "I don't care, man" At this point. It's not that they're completely done, but they're tired. [00:10:08] And the other thing that we have unfortunately, no control over is the weather. That's a real thing. Like once the weather changes and things get a little colder and the days get shorter because for whatever reason we still do daylight savings time. Somebody seriously has to change that by the way, but it really has a physical effect on our bodies and we will just naturally start to slow down a little bit with the weather. [00:10:36] Like animals, they go into hibernation. We're mammals too. This is what mentally we start doing that a little bit. Now, It'd be great if we could just check out and hang out in a den for three months and come out in springtime But our minds do this especially right around the holidays because we kick it off with Thanksgiving, then we get into Christmas, then we get into New Year's, the weather's cold, the days are shorter, It's the end of the year. Everyone's tired This is not a great time of year to be like, "rally the troops guys! Go get them!" Not going to have great success there.  [00:11:12] Jason: Yeah. And this is a good opportunity, when things cool down and your team are a little bit more focused on their personal lives and things are shifting, this gives you a lot of space and a lot of bandwidth to really focus on what you want. [00:11:26] And so I would say is that as the world cools down, you should heat up. Like you should then step more into that strategic role of being a business owner instead of being an employee in your own business, which you're doing at least half the time, probably, or more. Now you can get out of that daily tactical stuff a little bit more and start to focus on strategic. Strategic time is what actually grows businesses. Tactical work, emailing, calling, that's not really what grows or moves companies forward. It just keeps them alive. But what helps is innovating, moving the business forward, planning, scheming. This is your time to be able to come up with a plan, come up with an idea. And if you don't have a really solid plan, you don't know how to 10X your growth over the previous year. [00:12:14] Like you're like, "that sounds impossible, Jason. I don't have a clue. Like the last year before that, we've had maybe consistent growth. Maybe it's even slowing down. We don't know how to 10x it." Then you need a better system and you don't know what you don't know. So you might want to reach out to us and maybe it's that you just want to get out of the day to day. You're like, you're really starting to feel burnt out. Look at the future. Can you do this for another five years? Can you do this last year for another five years? You may have been doing this for five years already.  [00:12:44] Sarah: Can we do groundhogs day again and again?  [00:12:47] Jason: Yeah, and You know that probably feels like a grind if you're not enjoying if you didn't enjoy last year, if you weren't like, "hey I love this. This is amazing," Then you're probably doing it wrong and it's pretty wild to see how quickly we can shift clients' businesses to restructure their business around them and allow them to have more freedom and more fulfillment and more contribution and more support and help them get a better team, help them get better systems, and then they're enjoying their life. [00:13:17] There's nothing in the business that you have to do personally. There's nothing that you have to hold on to. We can build this business around you and you just hold on to the pieces that you really enjoy or that you really love, or they give you momentum. And very few of you really, if you could just do nothing would really enjoy that. [00:13:36] You might be telling yourself that right now, because you're burnt out, but what I find is once clients are in alignment with the things that they actually enjoy doing, then they no longer hate their business and they start to enjoy it and it becomes a source of life for them. That's fulfillment. And that's what freedom feels like. [00:13:56] And then they want to benefit others, and that's contribution. They want to start contributing to their team. They want to make everybody's life better. And what you'll find is if you get in proper alignment, then you can build the right team around you, but you can't build the right team around the wrong person, and you've probably been showing up as the wrong person for a while now. [00:14:16] And it's time to shift that, and it's very doable. We have a process for how to do this. We have clients do a time study. We figure out which things energize and drain them. We then take all the things that drain them that are very tactical, and we create new job descriptions for new hires for this, or we give these things to existing team members. [00:14:35] And then we create a plan to get the business moving forward, either related to growth or related to systems, so that the business becomes scalable. And then, You start to see there's light at the end of the tunnel and business can become really fun. It was fun when you started it. It was exciting. It was new. [00:14:53] You had belief in what you were doing. We want to get you back to that.  [00:14:57] Sarah: Yeah, for sure. So if you're feeling the stress and the overwhelm, then you're holding on to things that you probably shouldn't be doing at this point. We have one client who just, he still won't do it. He knows what he needs to do, but it's so painful for him to do. And he's "I can't fire my team. Can't do it." When he does make that leap, I'm telling you, it's going to be night and day for him. But when you have the right things on your plate and when you have the right people surrounding you in the business, and they're on board with helping you like move the business's mission forward, not just "Hey, I'm clocking in and I'm here to do a job." [00:15:35] Everything is different and everything is easy, which is crazy to think in property management that it can actually be easy, but it can, as long as you're building things the right way.  [00:15:46] Jason: Yeah. A lot of property managers see the pain and the challenge that they have right now. And maybe you have a hundred doors and you're like, "this is tough." [00:15:53] Or maybe you have 200 doors, like, "this is tough." And so what ends up happening in the back of their mind, they see "if I had another 100 doors or another 200, or I doubled the size of my business, it would be worse. It would be harder." But if you do it the right way, it actually gets a lot easier. [00:16:10] In fact, the bigger you get, the easier it can get if you do it the right way. Because you can get better and better team members. You have more resources. You can get better and better tools, right? You have more and more leverage if you do it the right way. And property management can be death by a thousand cuts, especially if you have a thousand doors, or it can be a really great systemizable business that you don't have to be super involved in the day to day, if you're the business owner, especially the larger you get. [00:16:40] And this can happen at any stage. At any stage, you can be miserable or you can be enjoying yourself. And we want to make sure that we get you towards enjoying yourself, because what you'll find is when you are in alignment with the four reasons, your team members then have a chance of doing it, and it'll be a lot easier to help them get in alignment with the four reasons. [00:16:59] And then you'll probably get two to three times the output from those team members. Because they'll be on fire, they'll be excited, they'll be in momentum, they'll have a sense of fulfillment and freedom and contribution and they'll feel supported. And you will get a lot more out of those team members than you do out of the ones that are just grinding every day. [00:17:20] So right now is the time, it's time to make a plan. And if you need some help making a plan or you need a really good system or your current plan is to do whatever you did last year or just wing it, then that's not a great plan. So you need a better plan and we can help you come up with a better plan here at DoorGrow. [00:17:38] So anything else we should say about this season? I don't think so. So I think this is also an opportunity to check in with your owners, reconnect with your clients as you move through this season, since things have cooled down a bit, this is a time that you can re establish the connection and in those relationships to increase the lifetime value of your clientele and to decrease churn and so this is as things cool down, as things are a little quieter, feel free to show some care and leverage the holidays to reach out to your existing clients and just let them know that you care about them. Wish them happy holidays, merry Christmas And Happy New Year's and let them know that you they're in good hands with you. And this is an opportunity right now also to increase future revenue through retention and decreased churn. So I think that's pretty good for today.  [00:18:33] Sarah: All right. Cool. That's my topic for this week's scale call. You must've heard me talking about that on last week's.  [00:18:39] Jason: I did. I heard you mention it. You talk loud. I'm just kidding. All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to add doors, you want to grow your business, you want to get out of the day to day, you want to make your business scalable so that adding more doors does not make your life personally worse. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. We can help. We help people like this all the time and we just get better and better every year. So if you have been listening to this podcast a while, or if you are a past client for maybe two, three, four, five, something, many years back, even one year back, even one year back, we've changed super system a year ago, right? We've changed any of that a lot and we've taken the things that have helped us scale our business and we are now leveraging these to help scale our clients businesses and it's working incredibly well. So I'm obviously biased, but I think we have the best stuff for the property management industry. I don't think there's any other coaching or mentoring or consulting that can touch what we're able to achieve with our clients. Our clients are crushing it. [00:19:42] And we can help them through every major issue or problem that they're dealing with, whether it be the op stuff or whether it be adding doors. Our clients are crushing it. So reach out to us. We want to make you our next success in our next successful case study. Hopefully we're talking to you soon. Go to DoorGrow.com. Join our free Facebook group community at DoorGrowclub.Com. And hopefully we're talking and working together soon. Bye everyone. [00:20:11] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:38] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Kent Hardman is a property management entrepreneur who took his property management company from zero to over 120 doors in less than a year!  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Kent to talk about the mindset changes and routines he implemented to kickstart and grow his property management company. You'll Learn [04:51] How your personal life impacts your business [08:23] Shifting your mindset toward growth [17:44] 10x-ing your business [24:48] Changing your life and business Tweetables “Self-care is the foundation. You've got to start there. Put your own oxygen mask on first.” “When it's somebody's doing sales and they start to get evidence, that's when magic happens because then we have our confidence.” “You've got to have that long-term vision to get through that kind of rut of a week.” “If you have more than 3 priorities in your life, you have 0.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Self-care is the foundation. You got to start there. Put your own oxygen mask on first.  [00:00:05] Kent: Yeah. The plane's going down. You're supposed to put your mask on first. You know, how can I help my daughter if I can't even help myself  [00:00:12] Jason: All right. Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. [00:00:36] Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:00:52] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, the Co-owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:12] And we're hanging out here with Kent Hardman. Kent, how you doing, man?  [00:01:16] Kent: I'm doing well. Glad to finally be here. [00:01:19] Jason: It's good to have you. So you've been a client for how long now?  [00:01:23] Kent: About a year.  [00:01:24] Jason: About a year. And this has been quite a journey for you. You're in a very different place you were, you know, now from a year ago. And so why don't we go back and why don't you give the listeners a little bit of your background and history so they get an idea of who you are and what got you into property management.  [00:01:40] Kent: Sure. Yeah, so I'm here in Cincinnati, Ohio. I grew up in Cincinnati. Won, the parent lottery had a pair of awesome parents, and I grew up in this old tutor and from a young age, just I was fascinated with architecture, real estate. Went to Miami University here, close to Cincinnati had what I refer to as my real job for a couple of years worked for a manufacturer. In the marketing department and I just knew it wasn't for me. [00:02:06] I always wanted to get into real estate. And you know, it was about 2006. I was networking with real estate companies. Nobody was hiring because of the economy. 2008 happened and literally I got into real estate in September of 2008, you know, people were running for the doors and I was running into a burning building. [00:02:25] And started out, I got my real estate license first, because that was the easiest thing for me to do. And did the realtor thing for a little bit, nothing against real estate agents, but I just, I had bigger ambitions than that. And got into buying rental property in Cincinnati and at the time my father retired financially, he had some cash to throw at some investments and me and my dad started buying apartment buildings and how I got into property management was just learning by doing, doing it for myself. Bought a bunch of apartment buildings, a lot of 10 families. [00:03:00] That then evolved into doing some urban development in Cincinnati. Cincinnati has recently gone through a great renaissance, so I was also in charge of doing the property management, but then also putting deals together development type deals, specifically in historic type shells that me and my dad would buy and, you know, build new on the inside. [00:03:19] And going back, so I'm 44 right now, going back two years ago, I was trying to kind of figure out what my second act is going to be, and, you know, I just identified how much I enjoy property management. Everything that you listed at the beginning of of your podcast, that's why I'm in it. And, you know, I love the flexibility, the freedom. I just enjoy the different people I meet, both from landlords to tenants.  [00:03:43] And, yeah, so then I joined DoorGrow about a year ago. And it changed it from just a thought to me actually being serious. Like, yeah, I'm actually doing this.  [00:03:53] Jason: So where were you at when you joined DoorGrow? What was going on that made you decide, "Hey, I need to get some help or I want to join a coaching program." what was going on? [00:04:02] Kent: You guys found me on Facebook. You know, some ads start popping up. I'm like, you know, "what is this?" And clicked on it. And immediately, you know, in the original video, I saw you just jumped right into mindset and I was like, "wow. Okay. This is, you know, a property management type coach with mindset." I'm like, "that's a pretty potent mix. And yeah, just at the time, personally, I was in a really rough spot that I'm happy to dive into if you like. And yeah, DoorGrow just helped me just get the momentum to start making some phone calls. You know, I was sitting there having the idea to do it, but not doing it. [00:04:37] And I was like, "well, I'm going to join this." And by doing that, it just gave me the confidence to, you know, start reaching out to people and "hey, I'll manage your property." [00:04:47] Jason: Yeah. So, well, cool. You had mentioned you know, you were struggling with some stuff. What was going on in your life at the time that you joined the program? [00:04:55] Kent: Sure. Yeah. A lot from what I remember. Yeah, so, long story short, I was in a mentally abusive relationship with somebody, and we were not married, and something happened that I was able to get her out of my life, well then, our daughter, we share a daughter together that I basically raised by myself, in the state of Ohio, women have all the rights over children. And she got at me, and I didn't see my daughter for about six months. I compare it's about the closest thing to losing a child that you can, you know, get to my sense. [00:05:26] I didn't, but it was basically on that level.  [00:05:29] Jason: There's nothing to make you value your kids like somebody taking them away from you So, my kids are what got me into entrepreneurs and that's really what drove me to be able to have the flexibility to control my day and my life and my weeks so that when I had them, I could spend time. [00:05:43] It was a big deal to me. So, but their perspective is probably "dad's always working because he's working from home," you know? Being able to be an entrepreneur and have that freedom was what really drove me to do what I do. So yeah, I remember us having some pointed conversations, like you were struggling, I think, just cognitively or mentally with everything that was going on with you. There was a lot of stress. You were dealing with a lot of stuff. And my perception, from the coach's perspective is that your confidence was kind of shot. You just like, you had the skill, you had the knowledge, and we could teach you the stuff to do, but in the beginning you really weren't believing in yourself. [00:06:23] Kent: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean, you know, mentally, I'm struggling just to get out of bed. I mean, it was a challenge just to face the day, you know, and I'll never forget at the time. I went to go see somebody a therapist talk to and she said, "oh, what are you doing?" I'm like, "well, I'm trying to do this property management thing." [00:06:39] "Well, what do you do on a daily basis?" [00:06:41] "Well, I call people that don't want to, you know, hear from me" and, you know, and she's like, "probably need to get another job." I'll never forget.  [00:06:49] She said, "well, why don't tomorrow you call one person and then from there, you know, try to do better the next day." And at the same time, I reached out to a good friend of mine, probably my closest friend. [00:06:59] And I just said, "Hey, man, I'm not doing good, you know, like, what should I do?" And he said, "man, concentrate on the little things. You know, "are you taking care of yourself? You know, are you eating good? Are you sleeping? You know, are you keeping a regular routine with the sleep schedule?" I wasn't doing any of those things, you know, and so just--  [00:07:15] Jason: One day, we had a similar conversation. [00:07:17] I'm like, self care is the foundation. You got to start there. Put your own oxygen mask on first. Yeah.  [00:07:23] Kent: So, yeah, you know, exactly. Yeah. The plane's going down. You're supposed to put your mask on first. You know, how can I help my daughter if I can't even help myself and, you know, it just started just one day I got out of bed and took a shower and I'm like, wow, that's more than I've done in a couple of weeks. And then I picked up the phone and the next day I called somebody else. And then it got into a point of me just, you know, I'm not naturally a outgoing sales, salesy type person. And you know, then I just start killing it. I just enjoy the numbers game. I enjoy that I could have, I could call 50 people and it wouldn't bother me 49 of them wouldn't want to talk to me. [00:08:02] It'd be that one, you know, just that feeling of just, you know, that home run that you hit, like, man, that was worth it, you know. And that's how I started. I just started calling strangers. I have a specific geographical area that I targeted and I had a way that I hunted down their information. It was a lot of data mining, but it was just the dialing  [00:08:20] for dollars is how I got my start. Yeah.  [00:08:23] Jason: So what shifted being involved in the coaching at DoorGrow? What do you feel like really had an impact for you and how did it help you? And how many doors did you have when you started with us? Let's start over there.  [00:08:34] Kent: Zero.  [00:08:35] Jason: Okay. Zero doors. How many doors are you at right now? [00:08:38] Kent: 107.  [00:08:38] Jason: That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. And so, you know, where do you think you would be if you didn't have DoorGrow? How, how did DoorGrow contribute? How would this be different?  [00:08:49] Kent: Yeah. Well, you know, the first question you asked, you know, how did DoorGrow help me? Sense of community is the first thing that came to mind. [00:08:56] The fact that I was joining forward thinking property managers. You know, I felt like I was at home because it's something that, you know, I believe in, I believe the industry is a little behind the times and a couple of different areas. Technology being one and, you know, we can dive into all the other areas, but just. [00:09:13] I felt like I was in a place where people understood what I was trying to do professionally. And, you know, that was a big thing, the community, but then another big portion of it was having somebody holding me accountable you know, I'll never forget Morgan reaching out to me, "hey, how can I help? How can I help?" I'm like, hey check in with me, you know, make sure I'm calling my 50 people a day, you know, just do that weekly, you know, because then I'm telling you, I'm doing it. If I'm not doing it you know, I feel a lot more responsible if I'm telling somebody I'm going to do what I need to do. [00:09:43] Jason: So, yeah, I think you put in the work and it's awesome to see that. You know, we can give clients the strategies. And the stuff that we give people to do works, but not everybody does it. A lot of people listening are like, all they're hearing is like, "Kent makes a bunch of phone calls." [00:09:57] They're like," I don't want to do that." You know, what's different about the strategies that you're doing with DoorGrow versus what you maybe would have tried on your own then. I would have just been kicking tires  [00:10:07] Kent: if it was just myself. You know, it still would have been idea, [00:10:10] "hey, I'm going to do this. You know, it's really just, it just gave me that confidence, you know, even jumping on the weekly calls and talking to people kind of sharing the war stories. You know, it's like, oh, you know, I'm not the only one having these struggles, and it's been great to, not that I like hearing people struggle, but it's, you know, it's nice to hear other people are going through the same thing I was, and that goes back to kind of that sense of community that I got from joining DoorGrow. [00:10:36] Jason: Did you go through the rapid revamp class? I did. Yep. And so what changes did you make to your business going through that pricing, your sales pitch, brand new website, any of these?  [00:10:48] Kent: All of them. But the one that really stands out is my pitch. You know, that was something that, like I said earlier, I'm not naturally a very confident person. [00:10:58] I'm a very empathetic he's some love type person, you know, and the idea of being a very salesy person intimidated me. But you kind of alluded to it. It was just a lack of confidence. You know, I know I can do what I need to do. It's just having that confidence and believing and yeah, just really defining my pitch, it was the biggest thing I took from that course. You know, website was an amazing, you know, pricing, all that stuff. But that was the one big thing I took from  [00:11:24] Jason: it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really is. It's pretty significant that the level of confidence that you go into in sales when you just know that what your pitches and you know why you're doing what you're doing and you know that you can benefit people. [00:11:39] And and that's what we teach. We teach authentic sales and, you know, seeing you shift from thinking you had to be a salesperson to shifting into having a solid pitch and just knowing that you could help people and being able to go out and do that. It probably made it a lot easier to just even make the phone calls and reach out to the right partners and the right people that could do some business with you. [00:12:02] Kent: Oh yeah. You know, having that confidence and you know, another big thing that I'm thinking of coming through the year with us talking here is just the the whole concept of momentum. I would call get one person, okay, let me get another person. And just that idea of just, let's keep the ball rolling. Let's do a little bit better the next day.  [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, it starts to give you evidence. When it's somebody's doing sales and they start to get evidence, that's when magic happens because then we have our confidence. It becomes real, then we can see that we are getting results. We can see that the needles moving for, you know, in a positive direction and that can be really significant. [00:12:36] Sarah: So Kent, do you mind kind of talking about like the financial situation that you were in and kind of like your journey through all of that? Because, I think that's something that a lot of people really struggle with is like, business is not easy. And sometimes, you know, we either underestimate or really overestimate, like, what it's going to look like. [00:12:58] Very rarely, I think, are we accurate in our planning and our methodology? So if you wouldn't mind, like, you know, it's just sharing some of the. You know, the financial piece, like, what did this look like, you know, from the start to like, where you are now.? [00:13:13] Kent: Yeah. You know, what I've described to people is when I said what I do, you know, I said, "hey, you know, growing a property management company is not impossible. It's a difficult thing to do, but I did it with two, my two arms tied behind my back, you know, because I was struggling just to get out of bed," you know, is where I began. And, you know, it's just. I knew that I could do it. Once again, going back to the confidence and the routine of doing it, but yeah, you know, the, at the end of the day, I enjoy this business for multiple reasons, but from a financial piece, I enjoy the residual income that comes in. I enjoyed the flexibility that this job allows. And yeah, you know, my expectations coming in, you know, I had my spreadsheet on what it would look like and, you know, my goal was 100 doors. I'm going to be at 100 doors and I know Jason, you shared that's a lot of people when they start up their goal and I'll never forget. It was right around Christmas time last year. I'm like, "well, I got to call somebody" and, you know, I started calling people and after my first day, "I said, my goal is 100 doors by the end of the year, 1 year from now." Yeah. Well, I was able to reach that last month September 13th and it was a very good feeling that day, kind of walking on clouds, like, man, did I really just do that? You know, and just looking back yeah, I just had to put in the work. At the end of the day, it was a challenge to call that first person, but I just knew, I told myself, I'm going to have to pound these phones for six months. Is what I told myself and you know, so I'm like, all right, May, June, I should start getting some income man. It was right on the dot. I mean, literally day one of the second half of the year, client number one, client number two, you know, but it's like you got to have that long term vision to get through that kind of rut of a week of without securing anything, you know, you just got to. [00:15:07] And once again, going back to DoorGrow gave me the confidence. I mean, you know, if I didn't have DoorGrow, I'm sure I would have gave up like, yeah, this is not going anywhere.  [00:15:15] Jason: Yeah. So, I mean, it's been awesome seeing your growth and where are you at now? Like we know you've got more doors, what, but how does life feel different for you? And what I mean is in the beginning, struggling to get out of bed, like life was difficult, zero doors in the beginning. Give us some contrast, help us understand where, what's life like now for you.  [00:15:34] Kent: I mean, night and day, you know, I love the quote. [00:15:37] I don't know who said it, but "if you have more than 3 priorities in your life, you have 0," and right when I heard that, I'm like, man, what are my 3 priorities? Well, my health, because if I don't have my health my longevity, I got nothing, you know, that's the foundation. So, taking time to work out, to exercise, to bike you know, family is the second one. [00:15:57] You know, my daughter, my parents and then the third is work. And just having that focus has given me great clarity. You know, I don't have time for anything else outside of my three priorities. You know, I, you know, I'm going to, I went to bed last night about eight o'clock. I was dead tired because I busted my butt on my three priorities. [00:16:17] So, you know, to answer your question, how's it switched? It's just I'm so thankful for what I went through because it's given me extreme focus on what's important to me, what I need to do to survive and to thrive.  [00:16:28] Jason: Yeah. We had a good conversation about 10x. I remember. What did you take away from that coaching call? [00:16:36] Kent: Yeah, it's so funny. We talked when you originally and you started with health, you know, "hey, man, make sure you're working out. Make sure you're taking care of yourself. I mean, I took a lot from that, but that was the biggest thing. I wasn't taking care of myself. And I got better over this year, but I made that priority. [00:16:53] Number 1, you know, I prioritize sleep. I prioritize going to the gym and you know, the other big thing I got from it was I was kind of messing around. Like, I didn't realize how close I actually was, you know, I thought it was gonna take me forever to get where I wanted to be door count wise. And it was like, to the day, like, maybe not even a week when I went from 30 doors to 105 doors, And all that was I, you know, it was easier or what I took from the conversation. It was easier for me to, like, try to be a professional athlete than trying to be like a college athlete. You know, so what I did was I started calling people in my database with more doors. You know, I started stop messing around with the 2 families, and I was going 4 families and up and just there was things just started gushing in. [00:17:44] Jason: Yeah yeah, we chatted about that. And for those listening, the conversation was something like it's easier to do 10x and 2x, which comes from that the book with the title 10x is easier than 2x by Ben Hardy. Which is he's teaching Dan Sullivan's principles in that book. And but the idea is there's very few things that can get you, that you can do to 10x. [00:18:06] And when you think about that, and there's a lot of things, infinite things you could do to 2x your business, right to have incremental growth. So. I just, I challenged you. I said, I want you to sit with that question and think, what could I do to 10x? And when we just start exploring that question, we start to change your behaviors. [00:18:22] And you've found some ways you're like, well, I'll go after people with more doors, people with more doors secretly for those listening, the people with more units and more doors are better clients, they value you more typically, and they are easier to get on, you know, than the one offs in a lot of situations. [00:18:40] And so, you know, we can choose our ideal customer and go after them. And you started shifting your focus, which is interesting. And then you started seeing a shift in your door count significantly.  [00:18:52] Kent: And, you know, it's worth repeating what you said there, you know, the higher door count people, the more sophisticated investors are way easier than some of the mom and pops with, like, a 2 family, you know, for every reason you just mentioned right there.  [00:19:07] Jason: Yeah, they get so emotional about their property. They maybe used to live in it. They're like, "Timmy etched his height in the wall, like, since he was, you know, a little kid and like, we need to maintain it to like, it has to stay the same forever," and they don't want to treat it like a rental property. [00:19:22] Yeah. So, yeah, well, Kent, you know, we've really appreciated having you as a client. It's been great to see your growth and success. Where do you see yourself in a year from now?  [00:19:31] Kent: Yeah. So there's kind of two things going on when I'm thinking, you know, I've just seen, you know, my number one priority right now, I'm where I'm at the door number that I wanted to be you know, I want to make sure my highest priority right now is make sure I can deliver to what I told the people I can do so, yes, I have greater ambitions of growing doors, but me servicing what I already have right now is of my number 1 priority and number 2 and I've mentioned this to you, Jason. [00:20:02] I've mentioned it to a couple other people. You know, me getting up to 1000 doors. Is going to be easier than what I just went through over the past year to get to 100. And, I'm using the last part of this year to kind of button up my processes with the things that I'm servicing right now and going into the next year My goal is going to be to let me double what I did. [00:20:23] Let me try to get 200 doors, you know And just see where that goes But then I, you know, I say that it's like, wow, screw that. I'm going to go after a thousand doors. Why am I selling myself short? You know?  [00:20:35] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're, you know, that's interesting. I think a lot of people listening to this might have less than a hundred doors. [00:20:42] And if you do reach out to DoorGrow, let's get your business fixed up because having less than a hundred doors is not really a profitable business. Like it's really difficult. To make money when you have like 20 doors or 30 doors, right? 50 doors. And a lot of people get stuck right there as a solopreneur. [00:20:59] And and they've already made usually a lot of mistakes related to pricing and branding and everything else. So everything feels so uphill. And then a lot of times they're losing more doors sometimes than they're getting on or about the same. So they're just, they have this high churn rate where they're losing clients every year. [00:21:13] And then getting some clients and they're like, "I'm not growing." That's a painful grind to be in. And that's way harder than if you break the hundred door barrier in a healthy way, which you did and you know how to grow, which you do. And you know how to grow independently of ads. You don't, you're not beholden to some marketer to advertising agencies. [00:21:33] Like you can just go out there and create business. And it actually takes you less time than it would to follow up on cold, crappy leads that you were buying. And so you're doing things in a smarter way than most property managers do, because most probably are listening to this going, "well, I don't want to make phone calls. [00:21:48] I'm going to go be stupid and spend a bunch of money on ads and try and do a bunch of advertising instead," because they want to avoid something that's going to actually work well and get them warmer leads that have a higher close rate that they're not competing with the low price property manager, you know, out in the market.  [00:22:05] Sarah: I think it's the perception of pain. It's all, it's not, you know, people aren't like, "Oh, I want to do this way instead." It's just that it sounds painful where it sounds a lot easier just to be like, "Oh, I'll just pay for ads. I'll pay a marketer. And then like leads will come to me." It sounds easier. [00:22:23] And it's so deceptive because it's so hard. It's so hard. But it sounds, I think when people hear like, "Oh, well, I have to talk to people and I have to make a bunch of calls and I have to reach out to a bunch of people? I have to do a bunch of work?" Then they go, "Oh, this is like this hard thing." But what they don't realize is that if you, like, if you're spending money on ads and you're advertising, like, and you're getting leads that are coming to you, you still have to make a bunch of calls. You still have to talk to a bunch of people. You still have to do a bunch of work and you're actually doing more work because these people don't know who you are and you're just spending money. Like hopefully this works! I hope it works. So, like, is that something that was like hard for you to get over that hurdle and just like start doing the work. Was that hard for you?  [00:23:07] Kent: Oh, yeah. I mean, I you know, I procrastinated forever, you know, it's you know, I spent so much time, "I'm gonna do this with you know, trying to find leads and you know," basically I was just prolonging the pain, you know, I'm then finally one day. I'm like just call somebody, you know I think the best example was it was right around Memorial Day. It was that Saturday And I got up, I'm like, all right, "I'm going to call my 50 contacts or my 50 buildings." And man, I was pacing around my computer cause I did not want to do it. You know, I came up with every excuse. [00:23:44] "Oh, it's a holiday. Nobody wants to talk to me." You know, there were some curse words that I just started saying to myself, like just trying to hype myself up, like, "man, just do it." Finally, I sat down and did and started calling and call number one. So I reached out to 50. Prospects 50 buildings call number 1 was a home run call. [00:24:03] Number 50 was a home run. Everything in the middle was a dud, but I was just like, I got off. It was so funny to have that 1st 1 and that 50th. I was like, wow, that was a lesson right there. You just don't know what's around the corner. But yeah, Sarah, yeah, definitely procrastinated to finally pick up the phone. [00:24:21] But once I, you know, talking about that momentum, once I started getting some first base hits, those then turned into double plays, and then they got a couple of home runs out of it, but you just got to start.  [00:24:32] Sarah: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for sharing that.  [00:24:34] Jason: Cool. Well, can any parting words of wisdom for people that are, or were are right now in a similar spot to where you were when you first came to us? [00:24:44] Or maybe they're dabbling like 20, 30 doors are struggling? [00:24:48] Kent: Yeah. I mean, it's been, you know, there's been a couple of things in my life that were like moments. I'm like, man, that, that changed my course. And one was joining DoorGrow. Professionally. And, you know, the second Jason's the call that mean you had, you know, maybe a month or two ago when I shared what I went through. [00:25:05] You know, that was just 2 things that just, you just get tattooed in my brain. And I know I've said this a few times to you even, you know, I'm like, "Oh, I could have got where I am right now, but DoorGrow helped me do it quicker." I'm confident in saying I'm even going to remove that from my vocabulary. [00:25:21] I would not have been able to get to where I am right now. Yes, I did put in the work, but DoorGrow was great on showing me little tricks of the trade, some different technologies I can implement that just compress that time from a very long time into a very short time. So, yeah, you know, if anybody's on the fence about joining you guys I'm a customer for life. [00:25:44] That's good stuff. We're ending right now. That's like, that's it.  [00:25:48] Sarah: That's it. That's all we need to hear. My day is complete. Thank you. And because this is what we do. This is what we do and we like doing it. Like I'm, this like really fulfills me. This is what I'm really passionate about doing is making that change and making that impact. [00:26:03] Jason: Yeah. Can we be real? So like yesterday was a rough day for us, right? Business can be rough sometimes, like, you know, we get stressed out. We like feel overwhelmed. Things change in the business. Things change with the team. You know, sometimes you get bad news. [00:26:18] Like business is not easy. It's a new day, you pick yourself up, you get to work, and Kent, it's been awesome seeing you put in the work, get the results, and that's really what we value as coaches, we need clients that are willing to do the work required to get the result, we will just help them with the system, and when we get great people, and they have a system, they're going to win. [00:26:46] There's no question. Our system's proven. We love when we get to connect with the right people that are ready for a good system. And those of you listening, when you really want success, when you're really committed to success, and you're willing to do the work required, and you just do it, even if you're sucking at it, the system will become clear. [00:27:06] You will find the system. And that's when greatness starts to come. That's where success starts to come. So put in the work, put in the effort. And then when you're ready, reach out the DoorGrow, we've got the system and then we'll help you get going. So Kent, thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate you. [00:27:20] Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for your time. We'll talk to you again soon. All right. Sounds good. See you guys. All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, that's wanting to add doors and make a difference in everything that we talked about, then, you know, reach out. We would love to support you. [00:27:37] Just go to doorgrow.Com. Also go to doorgrowclub.Com, join our free group and community. We give away a lot of value. Hopefully that'll get you up to the point where you can afford to work with us. And and when you're ready, we're here to help you take things to the next level. So bye everyone. Until next time to our mutual growth. [00:27:54] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:28:21] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Do you feel comfortable where you are at in your property management business? You might have achieved your initial goals. You started the business, you got the number of doors you wanted… now what? Today, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about growing beyond the initial goals you set as a business owner by leveling up your mindset. You'll Learn [01:30] Don't be a slave to your own business [04:11] You can achieve more [09:28] The 3 different levels of want [16:33] The 3 things necessary to achieve [20:15] Only YOU know what you are capable of Tweetables “You know, deep down whether your business is great or not.” “You're able to make a bigger impact and a bigger difference if you have a successful healthy business.” “Find a way to justify success because success allows you contribution.” “You spend your whole life trying to fit in when really you need to spend time trying to stand out.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Are you a "kinda" property manager or business owner or entrepreneur or are you non-negotiable, you refuse to be in an industry and not be one of the best. You're going to be great. Like you've committed to being great.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:51] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] So, a lot has been going on. Last episode, Sarah and I talked about how we had just come back from an event. We had a whole bunch of different ideas. This last week, then her family came to visit, so I haven't been able to implement a lot of these ideas, but it was super great seeing her family. [00:01:30] And, you know, one thing I was really grateful for during the last week, at the end of the week, I said to Sarah, "you know, it's really great that we have a business that allows us that when we want to, we can have those moments with family. Like family had come to visit, we can spend that time with them." And she agreed. [00:01:48] And so. This is something that I want all of you to be able to have an experience too. Hopefully you have this already in your business. If you do not, if you're struggling, if you're like, man, "I haven't even taken a vacation, let alone a few days off to spend with family. I haven't taken a vacation or a few days off to spend with family or anything like that in a while," then you have built the wrong business. You didn't build a business for you. You didn't build a business based on what you wanted. You built a business based on what your clients want maybe. You built a business that you let take over and become its own boss. And the business is now in control of you. You are now a servant or a slave to your business, and you should be the one in control, the one in charge. And so if you're in that position, you know, I want you to get out of this. I want to give you an escape route. So I just did a masterclass on the biggest secret killer or thief in a business, and that's interruptions. And I talked about doing a time study, and this is also the beginning gateway to escaping your business and creating some freedom is to do a time study. [00:02:58] And you can use our time study. If you'd like, reach out to us. We can give you our time study document. Just DM me on social anywhere and just say time study or something like that. And my team will say “what am I supposed to give them? Give them the link to our time study document." But the basic idea is that you're going to track your time every 15 minutes. [00:03:19] You're going to figure out where your time's going. You're going to figure out: "What am I doing that gives me fulfillment and what am I doing that's taking it away like it's draining me?" And so you're either going to have a plus sign or a minus sign that you're going to write next to every 15 minutes of where your time goes. [00:03:36] So if you're doing something where you feel like you're in the flow and you really enjoy it and this is fun for you and whatever it is, plus sign if you're like, "man, if I never had to do that ever again, and I had a team member to do that thing..." minus sign. Put down a minus sign. I have a special guest Welcome, Sarah.  [00:03:55] I'm giving up. [00:03:55] To the DoorGrow show. She was waiting for somebody to show up at our door They didn't show up. [00:04:00] So, all right. Nope. I was mentioning that if they haven't been able to take a trip or vacation a while, that they should maybe do a time study. So that's kind of where I've gotten so far.  [00:04:11] All right. Cool. So I was thinking at funnel hanging live at the event that we went to, I really enjoyed Eric Thomas. Yeah. And here's my notes from that, but I was thinking we would touch on that for the remainder of the episode. [00:04:25] Yeah. That's cool. Cool. And it's kind of related. He's an inspirational speaker, this gentleman named Eric Thomas. And he's gotten to speak to Warren Buffett and billionaires and, you know, stuff like this. And he was sharing this idea about this concept of these three levels of desire. [00:04:42] And he started out by talking about, you have to give yourself permission. So if you want success, you want to achieve, and I want you all to crack your mind open and be open to the idea of having massive success in your property management business. I don't know why you would want to suppress that anyway, right? So be open to the idea that a thousand doors would be a lot more fun, give you a lot more money and be a lot easier to do as a business owner, because you have a great team than doing a hundred doors. Right. And some of your dreams, like a hundred doors, I want you to 10x that. They need to go big, and we also got to hear Dr. Ben Hardy who wrote 10x is easier than 2x, which is a great book that I read. I really love that. So why don't you think 10x bigger, but give yourself permission to dream and the level of your ambition dream and set that level higher. Not to the level of other people's expectations. [00:05:32] And it talks about this in 10x and Eric Thomas touched about this, but it's the idea that a lot of times we are too afraid to just want, we're too afraid to just want something bigger. And so we feel almost guilty for wanting what we actually want or wanting something big. And so instead we hear this feedback from the world that says, "well, that's nuts. You don't need all that. You don't need a nice car. You don't really need a nice house. You don't need this." And that's other people's expectations. But that might not be what you want. And I really believe God puts desires in our heart for a reason. [00:06:06] Like, so the first question he asks is "what do you want?" Not what do other people want? Like, what do you really want? And whatever you want is okay. You get to want whatever you want. And then he asked, "why are you here? Why are you here?" And I've heard other coaches ask, what do you want and why does it matter? [00:06:23] But there needs to be a why. I like, "why are you here?" Because this speaks to your purpose. We have a purpose and what you want and your purpose are probably aligned in some way. Like having, you know, your dream life and being able to benefit others and have success. They're all interconnected. So, and he talks about three levels of want. [00:06:44] So I don't want to do all the talking. Do you want to talk about the three levels of want?  [00:06:48] Sarah: Yeah. Well, there's something too that I want to kind of add in because I've heard this my whole life and I've been different for a long time and I'm totally fine with being different. Like even, you know, elementary school, high school, like I've just always thought differently. [00:07:03] I've done things differently. I don't like fit in with like the popular kids. I'm weird. Yeah. I'm weird. And I'm really good with being weird, but sometimes people aren't. And especially when they're in school and they're young and everybody's like, "Oh no, you must conform and you must like fit in." [00:07:19] You spend your whole life trying to fit in when really you need to spend time trying to stand out, trying to be different. So, I've, like I said, I've always just done things a little differently. And a lot of times when I make a decision, you know, people will ask me like, why do you need that? [00:07:36] Why do you need that? You know? And I'm like, I don't need it. I want it. And that's been my answer every time. Like my whole life, you know, like I bought, so I refused to my very first home that I ever bought. I bought when I was 26. And until then I had just been renting, but I bought my very first home on my own by myself. [00:07:55] No help. I did have a mortgage. Yes, but like I didn't get money from my parents or like money from a spouse. Like it was me. I just did it. And I refused to buy a starter home. I was like, I am not going to buy a house that I want to live in for, you know, a year to three years and I'm going to just make it work. [00:08:15] And then I'm going to like upgrade and, you know, do the normal thing that people do. They're like, "Oh, I'll just start here and then I'll upgrade later." I refused to do that. And so I bought a home that I could live in for anywhere from like five to 10 years, I was like "I'm not doing this stupid game that people do." [00:08:33] So I just did what I needed to do in order to make that happen. And everybody was asking me like, well, "why are you doing that? Like, just buy a house that's smaller, just buy a house that's less expensive. Just do this. Just like, why do you need all that?" And I was like, "I don't need it. I don't need it. I want it, and it's okay to want big things and it's okay if the things that you want are not necessarily the same things that other people want." [00:09:01] So I really want to Mention that because I think we get this like pressure sometimes to conform to, you know, societal norms and just, you know, do just do what you're supposed to do. Just do the thing that everybody else does. And there's a lot of times I don't want to do the thing that everybody else does because it's not exciting. [00:09:22] So it's okay to like think outside of this box that everybody's trying to put you in. But anyway, so, there are three different levels of want. This is one of the things that he was kind of talking about is if you kind of want something and you're like, "Oh, that would be nice." Right. This is what I'm going to call like, "Hey, I'm like, I'm fantasizing" like, "Oh, it'd be nice if one day we could take this amazing vacation and go to Italy for like three weeks and like, you know, tour everything and like just like forget about all of our stresses at home. Oh, wouldn't it be nice if one day we lived in like a million dollar home? Wouldn't it be nice if one day I had a Maserati, right?" Like, and we all do this. Every person on the planet does this. [00:10:04] Like, "oh, it'd be really awesome. Like, this is like my dream life. Like if I could just snap my fingers and make something happen, like it'd be great if I lived in this mansion, right?" That's when you like, kind of want it. You're like you can think it, you can maybe say it out loud. [00:10:17] There's nothing solid behind that. You're just like speaking it out and you're like, "oh yeah, it'd be cool if this."  [00:10:23] Jason: Yeah. He said I can't, he says when you kind of want it, it's, but only if it isn't too difficult or inconvenient, I want it. That's how bad I want it. I want it enough that, yeah, it'd be nice, but only if it isn't too difficult or inconvenient. [00:10:38] That's the lowest level. What's the next level?  [00:10:41] Sarah: So then there's something when you really want it. Now, when you really want it versus when we kind of want it, when you really want it, you're like, "Hey, I'm going to do things, I'm going to make this happen, like I'm going to take some action, you know, I'm going to make some, maybe some choices a little bit differently." [00:10:58] This is like, "Hey, I'm going to take the thing that I want and I'm going to connect it to action." And that's, I think where most people live, is in this I really want it stage. They're like, "Hey, I really want to make this happen. Like, I'm going to start the business. I'm going to, you know, like make the calls. I'm going to reach out to people. I'm going to promote myself. I'm going to do what it takes." Right. "I'm going to do it." And I think this is where a lot of people think they live right here. You're like, "I'm doing the thing. Here I am like, I'm showing up, I'm doing the thing." Right. And I think what happens a lot of time is this is where we get comfortable because we're doing it. You're like, "I want to start a property management business." And then you did it and now you have clients and maybe you have a team and you've got like, right, you've got money coming in and you're like, "I did it. I did it." Yeah. Cool. Like first, are you dreaming big enough? Like did you started a property management business? [00:11:47] Maybe you have a couple of doors, maybe you have a hundred doors, maybe you've got 500 hours. Right. But are we thinking like as big as we should be or, and are we living in this like "I'm just kind of doing it" stage. Like I'm doing it. I want it. I wanted it. I really wanted it. I made it happen. And now here I am doing it. [00:12:03] And I think stage two and stage three are really different. And stage three is when the thing that you want is an absolute non negotiable thing. I don't remember if it was I don't remember if it was Eric or if it was Namaia. I don't remember which one it might've been. It might've been Namaia. [00:12:21] Jason: Eric is Namaia's mentor.  [00:12:22] Sarah: So yeah, they probably both said it, so, but one of them said, "listen, I have to do this. Like, I want to do it. I want to. Yeah, I want to. Like, I'm committed. I, like, I have the desire. I have the dream, but I also have to do this. I have an obligation to do this. And I have to do this because if I don't do this... he's like, I retired my mom. [00:12:44] I retired her. She's been retired for 10 years. If I don't do this, if I stop doing this, my mom has to go back to work and that can't happen is like, if I don't do this, my wife has to go get a job and that can't happen. If I don't do this, my kids see me quit and they see me stop and they see me playing small, and that can't happen. So when you want it so much so that it's an absolute non negotiable and you're willing to do anything that it takes, obviously ethically, anything that it takes until you get this thing and then you keep going That's I think a different level than like I just really want.  [00:13:25] Jason: So yeah Eric said that non negotiable level when you want what you want, like you want to breathe, then you'll have it. [00:13:34] And I thought about that. I mean, you have to want something pretty bad. I know what it feels like to want to breathe. Right. And I mean, that's serious desire. He then got into the three levels of why, cause we talked about why. And again, there's kinda, really, and non negotiable. [00:13:48] And you know, we have a motive and it's like, "well, I want, you know, kind of as maybe, well, it'd be nice to have some extra cash or whatever." That's not a big enough motive. Really want it, man. "I'm really hurting for cash right now, maybe," but non negotiable is like, "I 100 percent committed. I'm all in on this because this has to work. I have to make this happen. I feel calling inside myself. This is my purpose and I need to fulfill it. I need to achieve it. You know, no matter what the cost." there's always the one way that's going to get us there to make it work, and it's not going to be unethical. It's going to be the right way. And so I think focusing on what do you really want and figuring out what would be a non negotiable for you? Like I'm going to have this and what's a really solid why for some of you, like we were able to, I think last year, like a charity reached out and we donated like four grand to this charity to help, I don't know, homeless people or something. [00:14:46] And, you know, if I was in a financially difficult spot with cashflow in the business, and personally, I wouldn't be able to just drop money to charity like that and benefit a group, right? And as a company we wouldn't be able to do that. Are you able to benefit groups? Are you able to do good things for other people then you need to be making more money if you're not able to So find a way to justify success because success allows you contribution. [00:15:13] We talked about the four reasons: Freedom, fulfillment, contribution, and support. Contribution. You're able to make a bigger impact and a bigger difference if you have a successful healthy business. And one of the things that Eric said that I wrote down, he's a inspirational speaker, [00:15:29] and so he said, "I'm going to be the best inspirational speaker. I'm going to study it. I'm going to do whatever it takes. I'm going to speak before Kings and rulers, you know, I'm going to be the best." He said, "I refuse to be in an industry and not be one of the best in the industry." He said, "be great." So are you a kinda property manager or business owner or entrepreneur? [00:15:50] Are you like, you know, you really level or you non negotiable, you refuse to be in an industry and not be one of the best. You're going to be great. Like you've committed to being great. I've always had this commitment at DoorGrow. Sarah shares this with me. We've always had this commitment to being the best, and we believe we are the world leaders. [00:16:12] Nobody else has what we have in property management coaching. We're the best. And I'm committed to staying the best. And this is why we invest so much into the business. In terms of learning, investing in other masterminds, getting coaches, getting mentors. We spend more on that than other programs probably make, you know, other coaches probably make. [00:16:33] So you talked about three things that are necessary in order to like achieve what you want and have the success. And these three things, I recommend you write these down. First, you need desire. So we kind of talked about that. You have to really want it and you have to have a why and that's that, and then he said, you need an A team. [00:16:52] You need a really awesome team, like of A players. And then he said, you need a system. And what he shared these examples. He's like, Michael Jordan was, you know, an amazing basketball player. But until he got Phil Jackson as a coach, he was not able to play super well with others and he wasn't able to get championships. [00:17:11] He needed a system and Phil Jackson created a system that allowed Michael Jordan to win and succeed multiple times. But before then he was just getting lots of points, but he was not winning championships. He then talked about Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson needed a system and then he found Quincy Jones and started to have a ton of success. [00:17:32] And he shared some other examples. People need a system. And I got really excited when I heard this. I think I leaned over to you and said something. I think I was like, "we're the system." We are the system. I was like so excited. I'm like, that's us. We are the system! We just need to find the Michael Jordans and the Michael Jackson's out there. [00:17:52] Like the property managers that are like the greats, the ones that want to be great.  [00:17:57] Sarah: And can I say too, because I already know what's going through at least like three quarters of y'all's brains right now, they're going, "well, I'm better than everybody else in my market. So look, I am great." Yeah, and that's fantastic, right? [00:18:13] But if you're the best one in the market, and you might be, so I'm talking to you right now, because I was the best one in my market, hands down. There was like no competition but I was still playing really small. I got up to 260 doors because I was in that really want it. I wasn't in this, Hey, I'm like going to make this a non negotiable. [00:18:32] And I know, like, I was very aware. I knew where I was. Jason's like, you could make this a thousand door company if you wanted to. I know that I could, and it would have been really easy. I already know what I would have done. I could have doubled my business overnight and I know that. But I wasn't in this stage where it was a non negotiable. [00:18:47] So was I the best one in my market? Hands down, but am I really playing full out? No. And I knew I wasn't so if you're thinking like, yeah, but I am the, like, I am the greatest already. You might be but I think the one thing that I would say here because I realized this Actually when I was working at an insurance company, you can't compete with other people That is not don't and we all do this. [00:19:16] Like this is super common for us to do We go, "oh, well like my neighbor over there just got a new ferrari now I have to get a new ferrari." No, you compete against yourself. So every day you need to be better than you were yesterday. [00:19:29] That's the game you have to play. You can't worry about what your neighbors are doing, what your competition is doing and what other people in your market are doing. Who cares what they're doing? Let them do whatever they're doing and you worry about yourself. And if you are, you're like, "Oh, I'm already the greatest one in my market." [00:19:47] Fantastic. Then you got to keep going. So if you're the greatest one in your market like me and I was at 260 doors, don't stop at 260 doors. Don't be like, "oh, I already did it. Like look at me." Keep going. So at 260 doors, double that and then double it again And when you're really on this path, like that is how you become really great. [00:20:10] Don't just say like, "Oh, I'm already the best in my market. So I'm there." You have not arrived yet.  [00:20:15] Jason: So I think those listening, I mean, you know, deep down whether your business is great or not. Whether you're really delivering the level of service and you know there's flaws. You know you're not at that great level yet. [00:20:29] And to Sarah's credit, she was running a really effective business. I mean, you had 60 percent plus profit margin and you were part time. She's flexing here. So, but she fell in love with coaching clients at DoorGrow. She was like part time and she was like, "Hey," and she fell in love with something that she then really wanted to be great at. [00:20:50] Here's the thing. You need to know who you are, ET talked about this. You need to know who you are and you need to become great. Not just the best in your market, if the bar is really low, but you need to become where, you know, deep down is great. And that level you know, Ben Hardy, who wrote the 10X is easier than 2X said the only person that knows your potential, that's between you and God and everyone else might say, "Oh, what you're doing is amazing. It's great." But you might know if there's more and no one else is going to be able to set that higher bar than yourself. You need to know what great is and decide what that looks like, and you need to become great. And what he said when you become great, the system that you need will come like Michael Jordan invested and became great. And then you're The right people were attracted to him. He found Phil Jackson, right? Michael Jackson found Quincy Jones, right? Then when you become great, you will, then the system will come. [00:21:44] The system is out there. It's available and you will find the right system. And then once you have the system that you need, then you can leverage greatness. Then you can really leverage that greatness and truly showcase your greatness. And you don't have to be the most talented if you got the right system. You don't have to be the smartest [00:22:04] if you have the right system, you don't need to be different, you just need be a better version of yourself and compete with yourself. And you know, that's it. You just really need the right system. And I got excited because at DoorGrow, we've built the system. We built the system for the best property managers. [00:22:22] That was our intention. And I was really excited because I'm like, "we're the system! We've got the system." We just need to find those that really want to be great. And so I'm challenging everyone listening. I want you to want to be great, but you've got to want it. No one else is going to do it for you. [00:22:35] And Sarah wants me to wrap up. You want me to wrap up? We'll wrap up. So only you can do the work, but doing it alone is a choice. That's what he said. So find he had this scripture. He said, find a man that's diligent at what he does. And he will stand before Kings. Nothing can stop you. [00:22:51] Only you can stop you. You owe you. And then he said, he had people chanting, "I can, I will, I must." And so when you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you will be wildly successful. And we would love to be part of that journey. I'm a conductor with my pencil. All right. I'm just getting excited. [00:23:12] I'm going to poke somebody in the eye here.  [00:23:13] Sarah: It's going to be me.  [00:23:16] Jason: "It's going to be me." All right. So anyway, reach out the DoorGrow. We would love to support you. And until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:23:25] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:23:51] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

At DoorGrow, we have organized our clients into Tribes to provide them with connections, community, and support. In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull quickly talk about the importance of having these kinds of connections and being socially active as a property management entrepreneur. You'll Learn [01:16] Why we created DoorGrow Tribes [03:08] Find people on your same path [04:54] The neighbor strategy [06:04] In-person events for property managers Tweetables “You go faster together.” “It's really surprising to me how many property management business owners do not know anybody else that does property management.” “You need somebody you can look up to somebody that's ahead of you.” “The in-between moments at conferences, events where you get to connect with people, make friends are probably the most impactful.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's really surprising to me how many property management business owners do not know anybody else that does property management. [00:00:07] They don't really have a relationship or friendship. They're not connected.  [00:00:13] All right. Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:33] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:53] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:16] Now let's get into the show. All right, today's topic, we were chatting about what we should talk about, and we're about to head out on a trip. Where are we going?  [00:01:25] Sarah: We are going to Salt Lake City, Utah. And what are we doing? We're doing a tribe event with our clients.  [00:01:31] Jason: Okay. She's excited.  [00:01:33] Sarah: I am so excited. This is our first one. We're kicking it off live.  [00:01:36] Jason: All right. So we've organized our clients into tribes because we've got this awesome, amazing mastermind, and we wanted people to be able to get to know each other because this Is really important. The in between moments at conferences, events where you get to connect with people, make friends are probably the most impactful and maybe even profit evoking in like instances in interactions that you have at the entire event a lot of times. And so we want to really facilitate those for our clients and get them connected and get them creating some relationships. So we're going to be doing something fun. We are. Yeah. So what's the agenda? Why don't we tell them?  [00:02:15] Sarah: Yeah. So we're just hanging out. We're spending a full day together. So our clients decided where we were going. We had all of our clients submit their ideas for a location and then what we're doing when we're there, like some sort of activity. And then everyone voted and this was the one with the most votes. So off we go. So we are going hiking in Little Cottonwood Canyon.  [00:02:37] Jason: Okay. Yeah. And I hear it's beautiful. So it's going to be awesome. So we're going to see that. Everybody's going to be mixing a little bit of business in there and we're going to be having some good conversations and my intention while I'm there is just to benefit everybody that shows up as much as I can as coach. Right. And I'm sure that's Sarah's goal as well.  [00:02:56] And we've got to go catch a flight. So we're going to keep this really brief. It's going to be a short episode. So, why is it important to have a tribe or to have friends or to have connections in your industry as an entrepreneur?  [00:03:08] Sarah: Oh, it's so important, and in fact, studies have shown that this is arguably the most important thing that you can do so that you can be successful in your business and in your growth and in your life is just be connected to other people who are working on similar things and like on a similar path and they're growth minded. And a lot of people unfortunately don't have that. [00:03:34] So we provide that in our mastermind.  [00:03:37] Jason: A lot of you have heard the phrase, they say that you're the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with, and I think this is true in property management, your business and your relationship with your business will be the sum of the five property management business owners that you are the most connected to. [00:03:53] And so somebody they can also support. You know, you need these relationships. You need somebody you can look up to somebody that's ahead of you, and we definitely have people that are ahead of others in our mastermind, and then you want people that are on the same path as you, because a lot of the people, like if you've got 200 doors and you're trying to hang around people with a thousand doors, yes, you'll learn some stuff. [00:04:12] But also the game's changed. And the things that you need to do right now to grow your business are different than how they grew their business probably 10, 20 years ago, some of these guys or gals, right? And so you need to be doing what's current. And a lot of times they're watching you to see what the next thing is or they use you as the guinea pig. [00:04:30] They don't want to make big sweeping changes or mistakes. Small companies, you're more nimble. You get to experiment. You get to do cool new things. And we do a lot of cool new things at DoorGrow with our clients. And so you need at least five friends. And it's really surprising to me how many property management business owners do not know anybody else that does property management. [00:04:51] They don't really have a relationship or friendship. They're not connected. And we've been focused on this strategy of the neighbor strategy. Which you can check out by going to neighborstrategy. Com. If you'd like to get access to this free training, it's really cool. And it gets you connected to your neighbors. [00:05:07] And it helps you both make more money and get each other more business. It's a no brainer. It's one of our favorite growth strategies. And we've got two of our clients are in the Salt Lake area and they've been handing business back and forth to each other. One does focus on more on focuses more on short term, one focuses more long term and they've been feeding each other business using this neighbor strategy. [00:05:30] And it's not just sending business back and forth. It's a little bit deeper than that. And I teach you how to convert cold leads that might come in that you can field for or give to other people into a 90 percent close rate, warm lead. And so check this training out. You want to give this to all of your neighbors, get them to do it, and you're going to make a lot more money and they're just going to feed you business. [00:05:49] Warm leads, 90 percent close rate, easy stuff to close. Really cool. So go out and get some neighbors and maybe join the DoorGrow mastermind and get into our tribe groups and start coming to our events and make some connections. Anything else we need to say about it?  [00:06:04] Sarah: I don't think so. I think we're excited about all of the things that we're doing cause we're rolling out a couple of different styles of events. [00:06:11] Of course we're keeping our main one, our DoorGrow live. We're going to do that once a year. It'll be every May. So mark your calendars. It'll be every May. And then in the meantime, in the interim, like for our clients, we want to provide an opportunity for at least once a quarter for us to get together, like in person. [00:06:28] So the DoorGrowLive will always be an Austin. The tribe events, it's like once a quarter, we have the opportunity to just get some face time and get some time around each other. [00:06:38] And I feel like every time we do an event like this, the group that attends, they're just so bonded and it's like awesome to see. So we did an event back in. April and then in May we had our DoorGrow live and a lot of the people who attended our April event also attended DoorGrow live and they were like their own little like pod of people. [00:06:59] They were messaging each other like in the old group and. Because you just get so like, comfortable around each other and it allows you to really like create a relationship and a connection that's not on the screen because that's like the thing now everybody's like, "Oh, I like, this is how I socialize with people is on a screen," that it's not like genuine real connection. [00:07:19] Like it's very different when you're like face to face with someone and you can. Like feel their energy. That's really hard. Unless you're Roya Mattis, that's really hard to do through a screen.  [00:07:29] Jason: Cool. All right. So make sure you start getting around some property managers and get connected to some business owners because as entrepreneurs, we kind of isolate. [00:07:38] We feel alone a lot of times, especially in the early stages of our entrepreneurial journey. Eventually you realize the fastest way forward is to be connected. It's masterminds, it's coaches. It's getting connected with other people. It's allowing other ideas. It's not all available on YouTube and reading a book and stuff you can just do on your own. [00:07:57] Right? You go faster together. So let's get together. So that's our message today. And until next time to our mutual growth, check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to support you and your growth and move you through the DoorGrow code. If you go there, there's a free training. If you click the pink button on the homepage and you can learn all about what we do, how it can help you grow, book a call with our team and watch a whole bunch of testimonials and case studies of people that are scaling the shit out of their businesses. So we'll talk to hopefully you soon because you deserve this and you should be moving your business forward and should stop feeling frustrated, tired, and drained by your business. This should be fun. You should be making a lot of money. All right. That's enough. Talk to you soon. [00:08:39] Bye everyone. [00:08:40] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:09:07] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this week's episode, I chatted with Dr. Renée Lertzman, a renowned psychological researcher shaping climate change action through psychology and sustainability. We discussed the theme 'Becoming' and its impact on societal shifts towards sustainable practices and also explored the transformative power of personal change for a more humane business world and the vital role of community in this journey. Renée shared challenges faced by leaders guiding transformations and her nuanced approach to caring in Humane Marketing. In this episode, Renée and I talk about: How do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through transformative journeys? In Humane Marketing, caring means more than just concern. Renee explains her approach to caring. And more insights for our listeners who are Changemakers before they are marketers Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. Dot marketing. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to this last episode in 2023. Today I'm speaking to Rene Lertzmann about the P of personal power. If you're a regular here and you've been with me all of this time this year, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing [00:03:00] plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of Marketing at humane. That's the number one and the word page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. It really is that one page marketing plan where you. Reflect deeply about all the different P's in your business. Today's conversation, as I said, fits under the P of personal power. And I speak to Renee Lertzman about the topic of becoming. So let me tell you a bit more about Dr. Renee Lertzman. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader. Working to make an impact on climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize, and connect with diverse populations. By blending scientific approaches into strategies that will be [00:04:00] impactful on the environmental challenges, Rene shows that combining the disciplines of psychological Psychology with environmental science can aid in the path of big changes. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer, bridging psychological research and sustainability. She integrates behavioral social Social and Innovative Design Sciences to Create a Dynamic Approach to Social Change. She holds a Master's Degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a PhD from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. In our conversation today, we talked about how do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal [00:05:00] and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through this transformative journey? In humane marketing, caring means more than just concern. And Renee explains to us her approach to caring. And there's also more insights for our listeners who are change makers before they are marketers. So let's dive in and listen to this episode with Renee Lertzmann. Hi, Renee. So good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Good Renee: to be here. Thank Sarah: you. Um, um, yeah, humane marketing and becoming, uh, all of these topics that you talk about in your work are very much in line with what we're talking about here, this idea of marketing from within. Um, so really starting with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] um, how do you see these personal transformations on this? Individual level, then translating into something that is bigger, you know, that is part of the collective and maybe even the business part, um, let's dive right in there. Renee: It's a small question. Um, well, that's a profound question that I experienced to be, uh. You know, innately, it takes me into the terrain of psychology, which is, you know, obviously my training and my background, um, which is the, the psyche. Um, how do we, um, process, you know, uh, information, our experiences in ways that. Um, can support our ability to act in new and different ways. Um, so I guess I would just say that [00:07:00] there and I mentioned this in my Ted talk where, um, there's no way around it. You know, that there's no way around the inner and the outer and I remember giving the talk on stage and ad libbing a little bit, which you're not supposed to, but I remember making this statement that said, basically, um, our inner world and our inner life is directly influencing how we are in the world and what we do. And then I made this comment, I'm sorry, but there's no way around it. And that is to say, you know, we'd like to think that we can do a lot of work in the world, um, you know, by focusing on our actions or, you know, um, our tactics, our strategy, but in actuality, as you know, um, everything we do is an expression of our [00:08:00] inner world and ourself, which is obviously influenced by, You know, um, our social context, our geography, our demographic, our personal biography, our circumstances, our proclivities, our personality, um, our inherent kind of essence, all of that is, is coming together. Um, and the work, you know, the, the, the work in the world of, you know, ushering in and supporting life. Affirming and life supportive systems for the planet. Um, I see relying on our ability as human beings to, um, level up to, to become more conscious, to become more, um, capable of coming from a place of intention and choice versus unconscious [00:09:00] habits. Defaults, um, fear, you know, all of that. So my reframe that I encourage is that the circumstances that we're facing in our world is an opportunity. It's an invitation and in a lot of ways, a requirement for us as human beings to, uh, evolve. Um, and, and by that, I mean, really, really evolve into our, like, higher selves, our highest good, the higher part. That humans are capable of, that's how I see it. So, you know, unless we put attention and intention to our own wounds, our own trauma, our own, um, stuff that each human being has, we all have it, you know, there, there, [00:10:00] those that has to be side by side with how you show up with a team as a leader, with your marketing strategy. Because if there's, you know, whatever is there will come through. So if I'm coming from a place that I've learned the hard way, if I am coming from a place of fear, of, um, you know, anxiety, of depth, of scarcity. Even a beautifully designed campaign somehow that will come through and so it's sort of on me to practice diligence around that. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. And you work a lot in the sustainability field and that applies there, right? That you have to first do this inner work in order to then help the other and help. [00:11:00] Organizations, you know, pay more attention to climate crisis and et cetera. Um, and it applies like you just demonstrated also in a business and marketing sense, because when I 1st looked at marketing, um. Well, when I had my own little crisis and said, well, I can't do this anymore. There's just no integrity in this. Um, I looked at how marketing is usually presented as something outwards, right? It's out there and you just have to somehow fit into that mold in order to be that person that you're supposed to be, um, in this marketing realm. And, and that I just realized, well, that is not working for me anymore. It has to be, uh, according to who I am and my worldview and my values. And so the kind of like the, the consciousness that, um, needs to evolve is also needs to happen on the marketing, [00:12:00] um, side. Especially because I think so much that we see out there is, you know, people have gotten such a bad experience with marketing. Everything is lies. We can't trust a marketer. And so the people who are then kind of went to authentic marketing. Uh, we still realized, well, not everything that they say is authentic marketing was actually authentic because they hadn't done that in their work, right? So it, it really, I see these parallels between also what you talk about this anxiety and scarcity. Well, yeah, if we come from this scarcity mindset that we feel like, well, there's not enough, I need to hustle to get these clients, clients feel it. Renee: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the inner work comes in. You don't, you can't just will yourself or say, okay, I'm going to not do that anymore. You have to really, um, cultivate the conditions somehow [00:13:00] to, to, um, Explore and be with what is happening for you and ideally have support, some resourcing to do that. Um, the only thing I would just say is I don't think it's like we have to do the inner work first before we do work in the world. It's it's it's they, they are inseparable and I get kind of tired of this, you know, binary, well, binaries in general are still very alive and active out there. Right. Hope versus despair. Um, you know, inner versus outer. Um, it's, it's like, that's just not how reality is. And so when, when people, when our stakes are high and we're under stress, that's precisely when we tend to go into binary thinking. Right. And so it's just important to recognize that. Um, it's not the inner or the [00:14:00] outer. It's not inter first, then outer, you know, and again, this goes back to what we already know, whether you look at neuroscience or whether you look at trauma research, or whether you look at contemplative practice, um, that it's, it's, there's a lot of healing that is available. By the act of doing and, and engaging with some sort of practice, like writing something or doing something in the community or launching a business. Right? That's literally grist for the mill for our learning and practice and development. So, you know, me doing my work with clients, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to grow always. It's a, it's a. That that is the work that is the practice, you know, Sarah: I feel like oftentimes the people who come to me, they had to go through the things that are not working for them in order to figure out, well, this is not working for me [00:15:00] anymore. And so now I'm ready for a different way. Yeah, I feel that's often the case Renee: right that's what that is the human experience I think. Yeah, there's just no shortcuts. Yeah, it's like literally learning by what isn't working and paying attention to this isn't feeling good This isn't working for me. Okay. Now, what does that mean? What do I want to do about that? I could stay there or I can you know get in touch with where my desire is where my Joy is where I feel Energy and called towards, but we can only get there. Unfortunately, by the pain of this is not feeling good. This is not working. I'm having a crisis. I need to leave my job. I need to quit this industry. I might need to move countries, you know, I'm, I'm like, like, there's usually people get to a certain point where they're just like. The, the misalignment is too big for me to tolerate right [00:16:00] now, or I have to leave a relationship who, you know, a lot of people are in partnerships where maybe they've come to a place of awakening and the partner or family member isn't there, you know, like that's very real and that happens a lot too. So, you know, I'm, I'm just normalizing. The experience of, oh, this isn't working. Okay. Then what do I need to do differently? And what will support me? Because it's really important. People. Recognize we need support. Um, Sarah: exactly. Let's talk about the support because I remember when I 1st went through my breakdown. I didn't feel like there was people who understood what I was trying to do and what I was even talking about. They're like, what's wrong with marketing? Marketing is fine. You know, this is just how business works. Business is business. And, and I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be, but I didn't feel [00:17:00] like any, anybody understood. Right. Yeah. And so that makes you feel very lonely and wrong. You're constantly questioning yourself. Yeah. And so then slowly. Yeah. I started to change my people. I'm like, okay, well this is not supporting me. Yeah. So, uh, and, and in that workshop that I just followed with you, um, it was a small group of women in change. Yeah. And you, at the be very beginning, you said, this is what matters. Small groups like this is what matters. Right. So, so yeah. What, what is the role of community in this transformation? Renee: Well, um, this is something I. I feel very strongly about and I am starting to write and focus on more and more. In fact, it might end up being my primary focus, which is the role of convening and curation. So my, you know, just to zoom back. I have a project called project inside out, which was started by a grant from the care foundation. [00:18:00] Um, and I was asked to put together some online tools and resources that take a lot of my work and kind of bring it together into some tools that anyone can access and use. And so, in doing that, I kind of formulated this idea that. What we need to be doing is guiding and not driving change. And so it's an attempt to do an intervention. And, um, and so we came up with these guiding principles of guiding, you know, and a, and a main, a primary role of that is to be a convener. And so I, um, the organizations, the clients I work with and more generally. You know, in my kind of work in the world, I'm, I'm basically telling people that if you are an organization, if you have a business, if you have an [00:19:00] enterprise, it's your role now to be more of a convener and together and to take that responsibility very seriously. And that means as a curator, you have to be also attentive to your own, what we were just talking about, like your own development, your own, um, integrity. Because when you're a convener, it's a responsibility, um, but my point is that, um, it's in the context of relationship and usually small groups that a lot of transformation can happen. And so, and I'm not, I didn't just sort of come up with this. This is like, incredibly well established. You know, there's a book called pro social that talks about the research, you know, like, in a very specific way. Like, if you have this number of people, you know, I think it's 8 to 12 people and you bring people together over [00:20:00] duration. Like, you know, we already kind of know this. And I was doing this work in 2001, um, an experiment. Using online dialogue where we put people into small groups online and kind of had them together over time. No facilitation, but we had a certain methodology where people, you know, introduce themselves and, you know, but the, that context was specifically about charged hot button issues, social issues, and it worked like amazingly people did not devolve into fighting because we created these conditions. That enabled people to really listen to each other and be, feel heard and learn and kind of have that exchange. So we already know a lot about what works. Um, so what I'm suggesting is we go back and look at what actually works. To support people through transformation that human societies have been doing since the beginning. [00:21:00] So, again, I'm not suggesting this is anything new. I'm saying that human wisdom practices and, you know, if you look at council, the council and indigenous cultures, and you look at circles and you look at, like, humans have had this practice of coming together in hard times, ideally. Not always it's how functional and healthy the society is to say, Hey, we need to look at what's going on. And then, like, people just naturally need to get together to kind of make sense, debate, argue, you know, have that kind of exchange that can support a different. Way or perspective, but you're also getting a lot of support. So, yeah, it's so Sarah: interesting. Um, if I may, um, just make the parallel again to the business and marketing world, right in business and marketing, everything we ever hear is go big, go scale or go home. And, you know, you need to be an [00:22:00] influencer and then numbers is what matters most. And, and so here you are saying, well, actually. No, not necessarily go back. You know, uh, small is beautiful. Um, more intimate, the deeper the connection. Yeah. And so that Renee: is scalable. It audio1097513299: is Sarah: scalable at the same time. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Renee: Like, I mean, people ask me, well, how do you scale this? It sounds very long and slow and relational. And I, Well, have you heard of the 12 step movement? I kind of think that's very successful and it's very, uh, talk about scale. It's completely global and the methodology is literally Holding space for people to come together and primarily just tell their stories with each other. And then, you know, you've got all the spiritual principles. It's very regimented. It's very structured, but I'm just saying, I'm not saying we all need to have [00:23:00] 12 step groups. I'm saying that small group interactions are scalable if you're a skillful convener. And so any company I'm working with. They're going to know I'm going to recommend this. It's not a surprise. It's sort of like, you know, if you bring someone in and have someone has their thing. It's like, okay, we know pretty much what's going to be recommended. Renee is going to say that. I'm going to say you need to approach your work in an organization by leveraging the people within it. To hold and facilitate small groups. Yeah, I love that. Train people and support people to learn the skills of convening small groups. Yeah. That to me is the number one skill right now that we are needing and that often people don't have. And, you know, if anyone listening is a facilitator, you know how hard it is. And how, uh, like [00:24:00] it really is. Um, a very, you know, nuanced kind of thing, uh, to learn and any, and I believe we can learn it, but in order to be a facilitator, it goes right back to how do we cultivate the capacity, you know, to really be present because the ability to hold space and be facilitator requires that you have to get out of your, you have to step back. You can't dominate. You know, we've all been in settings where people are like. Dominating, they're talking too much. Um, so, you know, that's, that's where I go with this is how do we foster, create the conditions for more people to connect with each other in more intimate ways, but also look at how we can scale that. Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I did a year long program called holding space and it really came from that idea of, well, how do you hold space for yourself? So [00:25:00] that was the first module of. I can't remember, four months or something. And then how do you hold space for others? And, and especially there was also a module, how do you hold space for grief, right? So, yeah. And so do you feel like we kind of met through the inner development goals? Um, do you feel those inner development goals skills help with this idea of holding space for Renee: others? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the IDG is a, you know, it's a very simple, elegant framework that I see as a reminder of what we need to be doing. Right. Uh, being, thinking, relating, acting and collaborating. So, you know, all of those are interrelated because in order to be a skillful collaborator, you need to have being in order to be a skillful thinker. You need, you know what I mean? They all kind of. Relate to 1 another, but, um, to me, the [00:26:00] power of the is mainly as a. In vocation to say, hey, we need to look at our skills as human beings, like how we from a developmental perspective and how you do that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, like, there can be a community literally in Nigeria, which I do know of, and they're doing all kinds of unbelievable work. That's strengthening people's capacity to show up, hold space, but they don't need to call it IDG, you know, it's like, it's basically human wisdom and human practice. Yeah, it really Sarah: is. There's one more topic I'd like to address and it's this idea of caring, um, in humane marketing. I say humane marketing is for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So what does caring look like for you? Because you seem to have a bit of a nuanced way to caring and it obviously relates to [00:27:00] sustainability as well. So talk to us about caring. Renee: That's a great question. And it is the topic of the book I'm working on right now, which is literally called a field guide for people who care. I love that. So, you know, basically the way I approach care is, um, that care is, our care is a very fragile, it's very fragile and sensitive and sort of, you know, that, that each one of us as human beings. Have profound capacity to care about whatever, you know, about life, about other people, about ourselves, about, you know, animals or plants or, you know, like the expression of care. I think we need to, um, kind of unleash our. Limits on what care is, what isn't, what it [00:28:00] looks like. And the reason why is because I spent 30 years in the environmental sustainability and climate sector, hearing people around me constantly saying, Oh, well, people don't care because if they cared, they would do something about it. And I absolutely disagreed, but I didn't know why. And so that's why I ended up spending all this time doing research and, you know, interviewing people and all this stuff, because I. I suspected that wasn't accurate. And what I found through talking with lots of people around the world is obviously people care very deeply. And I don't care what your condition is. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you are living on the street and you, you are preoccupied with your own basic survival. As a human being, you care about being alive. You care about often, um, others and animals and, [00:29:00] you know, like, so there is a fundamental care that's there that is expressed. Some people care deeply about ocean reefs. Some people care deeply about a microbe. Some people care deeply about. Knitting, I'm just like, whatever, but my point is that if we feel like, you know, there's something that's interfering with our ability to express that care, we will retract it. We will pull it back in and it will kind of go underground or it will get trans trans. It'll get applied in other ways. Like people I would interview in the Midwest United States would tell me all the environmental issues. They cared very deeply about and then they would say, but there's not a whole lot. I can do about it. So I'm going to focus instead on my garden and my family and what I eat, you know, because those things I have control over right now. Does that mean. That that person doesn't care [00:30:00] about the, the water in the region. And so that's where I'm, what I'm saying. We've got to shift our, um, miss. About care, you know, that somehow if you care, you're going to do something about it. The question is, how do we. Unlock and kind of access people's care by affirming, yes, of course we see you and we know that you care very deeply. Now let's figure out how we can help you express that. That as a marketing strategy is the goal. That's it. That is the marketing strategy is literally, it is communicate with people as if they already care. Like that's it. There's my book. There's your campaign. Just go for it. Sarah: I love that. Yeah, it's not assuming nobody cares, but on the, on the opposite, it's assuming they care. And I guess also what you said is like, well, [00:31:00] figuring out what they deeply care about, because when I talk about the SDGs with in programs or things like that, I always say, well, Obviously, yes, they're all important topics, right? We can all agree to that, but not everybody, not each person cares about the same things very deeply. And so, you know, there is this difference also about what we care about, um, more than others. And so, um, yeah, figuring that out and talking to Renee: those ones. The movement has got to get more sophisticated and nuanced right as soon as possible because it's very simplistic right now, and I will just say, especially. Those working in marketing and brand strategy, no offense, but there's just a pervasive way of thinking and working. That's no longer appropriate for the time we're in now, which is that we've got to be more [00:32:00] nuanced and much more attuned. And much more relational to what people care about, why and how and, and just like go right there, which is again, bringing in that, like you just said, like, here's a menu of all the things going on in the world. It might be very overwhelming, but what do you feel most called to? Right. Okay. Well, if you feel called towards animals and their animal welfare, then great. It doesn't mean you don't care about everything else, but you know, it's like, let's. Honor where the energy is. Sarah: Yeah, it's human to want to relate on that human level and not be robots that like everything, right? That care about everything, right? Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, you also on your website talk about these, the three A's, which I believe are anxiety. Ambivalence, ambivalence and, and, um, aspiration is it right? So really finding out [00:33:00] what drives people, um, Renee: in their care. Yeah, exactly. Sarah: I, I, uh, I like that a lot. Yeah, Renee: powerful stuff. It's very useful for people who do work in, you know, marketing and brand strategy. Yeah. Sarah: I can't, can't wait for that book. So keep working. Thank Renee: you. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, any last words for people? I always say at the end of each episode, I say, you know, listeners, humane marketers are change makers before we are marketers. So any last words that you would like to share with the change makers that are listening? Renee: Um, Transcribed Well, 1, check out project inside out and my website. Um, so there's Renee Lertzman dot com and then there's project inside out has like tools and it's a little dated right now. So I just want to acknowledge that. Um, but I would check it out. And if you like it and are excited by it, you [00:34:00] know. Get in touch. Um, we're actually looking at how to evolve it into a program, like an actual, like you said, year long program. I would like to evolve it into a year long program for guiding change. Um, and my, my, I guess, you know, I would just say inviting people who identify as change makers to really identify as being guides. And what does it mean to be a guide and really learning about guiding, you know, that it's, you know, what, what does that involve? Um, and, and it's a more powerful way of showing up, but it's also takes a lot of the pressure off you because it's no longer all on you to try to get people to do anything. It's really about how do we enable guide partner. Kind of help contribute to the conditions for people to go there. And then the other thing I would just say is acknowledge that this work can be overwhelming and tiring and sometimes lonely. And [00:35:00] it's really important that. You get the support and connection that you need with nature, other people, whatever that is, um, is really important. Sarah: Yeah, thanks so much. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Renee? Renee: Um, I'm grateful that I have, you know, the ability to, you know, live in a place that is safe. And, um, there's nature and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for really simple things right now. Mm-Hmm. Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and being my guest. This was Renee: to Thank you, . Yeah. I'm grateful for you and for having this conversation. Thank you. Sarah: I hope you [00:36:00] enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with Renée and got some great value from listening in. You can find out more about Renée and her work at renéelaertsman. com as well as the link projectinsideout. com And if you are looking for this community for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And, uh, we'd love to have you there to have these deeper conversations about the transformation that we're currently finding ourselves in and what it has to do with marketing. You can find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 7 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence [00:37:00] mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. Cause we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

At DoorGrow, we love showing off the awesome entrepreneurial people we get to coach and work with every day. In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with DoorGrow clients Jill Lyons and Alex Platt to talk about their journey in property management and with DoorGrow. You'll Learn [03:00] Starting a journey with coaching [07:26] Finding support as an entrepreneur [12:18] The path to success is hard work [16:54] Getting out of the business [19:28] The importance of good company culture [21:20] The impact of coaching Tweetables “Done is better than perfect.” “The more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is.” “If you don't mind working, you don't set up boundaries.” “Just being open to the thought and the idea is enough to make it work.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: The more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is. Ooh, like that one.  [00:00:07] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:47] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win I'm your host, property management, growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:13] Our guests today... we've got Jill and Alex. Jill Lyons. Alex, what's your last name? Platt. Okay. I just know he's always with Jill, Alex. So we're really glad to have you on the show. And the topic of today's episode is like, we want to talk about your journey with DoorGrow because you've been with us for a little bit. So, why don't you introduce yourself and explain like kind of how you got into property management.  [00:01:39] Jill: Well, I must've taken an insane pill along the way, but I like it. My name is Jill Lyons and I own and I'm broker of Relaxed Realty Group in Sarasota, Florida. Currently we manage about 500 homes. We have like maybe 520 now and our rent roll, we just surpassed 800,000 this month, so I'm stoked and happy and proud. And you know, I love the business. There's never a day that's not that I feel like, "Oh my gosh, it's, you know, Monday." I never feel like that. So it's every day is a joy. Not every instant is a joy, but every day is a joy.  [00:02:12] Jason: So let's Alex, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what is your role?  [00:02:17] Alex: So, my name is Alex and I've worked with Jill here just over a year and a half, or going on almost two years when I got my real estate license. My wife started with Jill, Miranda, and she's been with Jill for what, 10 years now? Started with a business with her and I do the operations here. So operations and BDM.  [00:02:38] Jason: Awesome. Okay, cool.  [00:02:41] Jill: So he came from a customer service background with T Mobile for the last 10 years. It's great. Corporate's a great, but there's a lot more opportunity here and oh my God, he's great with people. Of course He's not " to brag about himself. So I'll brag about him. So he will put on multiple hats and do everything that whatever needs to be done.  [00:03:00] Jason: Cool. Yeah, you guys make a good team. We've enjoyed having you in the program. So why don't we start with what problem problems were you dealing with when you first came to DoorGrow? Like what challenges were going on?  [00:03:14] Jill: So I would say my strengths are that I love to sell and talk to people and help people. So, you know, that was naturally there and I grew the business with success with growing doors. And I was in a kind of a comfortable, I would say position as. Having a good amount of owners and properties, but I want to start exiting the business and it was just way too 'me centered,' you know, what do we do? What do we do with people coming to me? You know, I don't mind working. Like I say, so unfortunately, if you don't mind working, you don't set up boundaries, you don't set up corporate structures. My flow, there was nothing corporate about me. [00:03:49] If I wanted to step away, which I did this year, hired the operations manager, but I'm like, now what? And now what do you do? I'm an engineer by education. All I know how to do is build a spreadsheet and show people returns. So I was looking for ...I always believed in coaches. I've been coached since day one of my business. [00:04:07] So coaching is definitely something I believe in, but the coaching company I used was really just real estate working with buyers and sellers. So I hadn't ever got the property management business aspect of it and setting up the business and the structure. So when you watched one of your podcasts and listened to your podcast, and I liked what you had to say, so I-- "let's let them get us to that next level." [00:04:32] Jason: Watch the podcast, listen to the podcast, and now you're on the podcast.  [00:04:36] Jill: I know, I'm like, what do I have to offer? That's the first thing, I'm still listening and learning.  [00:04:42] Jason: You know, there's a lot of people listening out there that would dream of having 520 doors, having an amazing operator, having the operations running smoothly and being on your journey, stepping out of the business, like this, that's a dream for a lot of property managers. [00:04:58] They're still in the thick of the mud and wondering if there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  [00:05:03] Jill: So they don't believe that I'm going to step out.  [00:05:05] Alex: She's a workaholic. So, you know, it's a little bit of yin and yang.  [00:05:09] Jason: You know, entrepreneurs, it's a tough thing. I've known a few entrepreneurs that have like exited their business and then they were bored and they started another business. It happens. So entrepreneurs, we want to stay busy and we want to do the things we really enjoy doing. So you just have to find something you maybe enjoy doing more.  [00:05:29] Jill: I don't know. Yeah, no, I'm not closed to what's next, but I don't know. I'm still here.  [00:05:35] Jason: So let's chat about, and maybe this is a question for Alex. So Alex what did you see when you first came into the business? Some of the challenges in how to like support Jill and how to get her out of the operational stuff. And what challenges did you see that DoorGrow so far been able to help with?  [00:05:54] Alex: So luckily with your program we got to revamp everything. I mean, your Rapid Revamp was amazing. I mean, we got to go from rebuilding and rebranding our logo and everything. So I really enjoyed your class, especially with the whole cycle of suck, making sure that you're not holding onto those owners that are sucking up all your time and, you know, using. A lot of your resource when it comes down to it. I would say those were the biggest things and especially your systems that you have. I mean, I think the Flow is going to help a lot for us to map out each and every one of our procedures that we have on an operational standpoint.  [00:06:33] Jason: Okay. So for those listening, DoorGrow Flow, our process software, which is pretty cool. So the Rapid Revamp, I mean, and you guys made a lot of changes. Yes. Changed your pricing.  [00:06:43] Alex: We changed our name.  [00:06:44] Jill: You changed the name. I said I would never, ever do that!  [00:06:49] Sarah: She's like " I'm not rebranding." I'm like, "okay, we don't have to rebrand." And then she's like, "I think I'm going to rebrand." I was like, "wow! All right, let's do it."  [00:06:58] Jason: Everybody says they don't want to do it. But what I love about entrepreneurs is that if you show them how to make more money, they're pretty okay with it. They're pretty okay with making more money. So, and I think the training, we do a good job in converting people into wanting to make more money. "Here's how it'll make you more money if you do the right things with your branding." So website. Did we help with that?  [00:07:23] Alex: We're almost there. We're on the tail end of that portion of it.  [00:07:26] Jason: So for those that have not been exposed to DoorGrow. Maybe they're just listening to this podcast. They're like, "I don't know if these guys are legit. Kind of looks like some sort of one of these Influencer sort of guys," or I don't know what people think before they become a client but what would you say to those that are on the other side of the paywall and maybe struggling?  [00:07:51] Jill: For me, honestly, if I would have found this 10 years ago, it would have happened faster, my growth and where I am now would have happened faster and more organized. I kind of wing it and I'm the type that, you know, I don't want to spend any money unless a bunch of sitting in the bank. And I probably, if I would have opened up the bank and gotten the coaching and the programs from a property management company versus just from, you know, where I got my assistance from, which I had when I did buying and selling, which I hate it. So I kind of kept my things rather than going into property management coaching and training. It would have definitely made it faster and less painful, and I would say that's the biggest thing that I wish I would have found you sooner, but you know, you always find people when you're supposed to find them and entrepreneurs tend not to be, in my opinion, people that go to business school because they just want to do it. They jump in head first. There's no rhyme or reason to how we do it. So the organization is usually where we struggle the most. And just networking and having the beginning, I just went to Google and figured everything out on my own, rather than reaching out to an organization like yours, that's more specific for us and NARPM, which, you know connected me to other property managers and how are they doing it? And why did I have to create the wheel and do it all my way? I didn't even know that there was anything like this.  [00:09:16] Jason: Yeah. And you had been in NARPM for a while before joining DoorGrow.  [00:09:20] Jill: Yeah. I'm heavily involved in NARPM. I'm the president of our local chapter. So that definitely has made helped my business, and the connection and they have a lot of tools that have helped me significantly realize that it is a business and with systems. But but there isn't the sales support, you know, they don't have you, Jason. It's not energetic and make me go, "yes! I'm going to do it!" With you and with everybody around! You know, it's just like the connections.  [00:09:48] Jason: Yeah. I know you have both really enjoyed the operational pieces as well, and you've attended quite a few of our scale calls on Friday that Sarah runs. What what things have you taken away from on the operational side of things? [00:10:04] Jill: So what would you say, because you deal with that more? I kind of say, go do it.  [00:10:07] Alex: So, I take a lot of the way, honestly, you guys definitely on those calls go over a lot of different systems that are in other people's companies, to be honest. And we try to take piece by piece and just kind of make it our own when it comes to this. I think it's developing more of the systems that we have. As far as like a specific system, I think we talked about maintenance heavily. And the processes over how other companies do it and what we do with our maintenance. So it's kind of getting every pieces of everybody's input on that stuff to kind of lay out what maybe we should change, you know? [00:10:45] Jill: I will say that as far as operational, we were in pretty good shape with that. It's not technicalogical. So you have DoorGrow flow. I'm just talking with Errol tomorrow. So it's been on my list of things to do this whole year to set up flow and get that going so that it's more clear how we do things because when we have a new employee, I can't just hand them, "these are our thing," we have to manually tell them or give them a checklist, which doesn't really help. So, I have to hire Errol cause it stays on my list every single month and it hasn't been done. That's what I'm going to pass the buck on versus the website. I'd like to do the marketing. So we need to finish all of this by the end of the year. That's on our list. Does it check the list? We're at the last, getting to the last quarter. So you give us the tools. It's just setting it up. That takes a lot of time and concentration time. And Errol seemed to be I met him at DoorGrow live, you know, in Texas. And yeah, he was talking about processes and creating them. Like I talked about property management, so he's going to be our guy. I'll see how it goes.  [00:11:47] Alex: We have a lot in our heads, obviously. So, that's getting it all down to where if somebody needs to know something, it's much easier.  [00:11:56] Jason: Yeah we're planning on doing some more stuff with Errol Allen, who Jill's speaking with, and he's currently playing around with our DoorGrow flow software and testing it out as well. [00:12:05] So I think it's going to be a game changer for the market. So Sarah's had a lot of interaction, I think, with the two of you. What's been your perception of why they do so well as clients?  [00:12:18] Sarah: Oh, well, so there's a few things that I'd like to kind of. Point out and give you guys like major kudos on. First is, I think you're just open. Sometimes we have people who are very resistant. They're like, " that won't work," and "I'm not going to do it like this," and "I can't do this," and "that's not in my market," right? And I think the difference is just being open to the thought and the idea is enough to make it work because if you go into something and you think, "oh, this won't work," well, you're probably right. Then it's not going to work. But you guys are very open and you also, I love this about you guys, you take action. You just come in and you're like, "this is what we're going to do," and then you take action, you implement and you get it done. I think, to date, they are the fastest people who have completed everything in the Rapid Revamp. Like, they get a medal for that. Like, every time, they're like, "yep, we're done with this," I'm like, "oh, wow, okay!" They just get it done. It's like they just put their heads down. They know what they need to do. They put in the work and they get it done and then they go, "okay, great, we did that. What do we need now? Like what's the next thing that we can do to either like build on top of that or like take us to the next level? And I think you guys are really great at that. And I think you, you work very well together. You know, you balance each other out. You like ping well back and forth, back together, and I think that gives you the ability to move things along so quickly.  [00:13:44] Alex: It's great to have ideas that we can bounce off of each other and make it a solid process and get it out of the way and move on to the next one.  [00:13:52] Jill: Well, and I love a checklist. So you have a checklist. I want to see checks on there. I don't want to see them open. So I think that myself, I can be more reactionary property management. Our phone is always ringing. Things are always happening. You know, I can easily not get anything accomplished in a day and be busy the whole day. So with the Rapid Revamp it has me be on track along with handling the things that come on you know all day but I have to get my things done  [00:14:18] Alex: And the nice thing about your dashboard was the fact that you could assign things, we would take them and split them up and be like, "okay, you're going to do these and they're assigned to you" and then I could assign ones to me so we can you know, handle what we needed to.  [00:14:30] Jason: Cool. [00:14:31] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that was really awesome just to see you guys because every time I check in with you, you're like, "Oh, yeah, we're done with that already." Like, okay, let's see what's the next thing for you guys? And you already knew! You were never like, "Hey, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, you just like stayed the course. And sometimes it's hard for entrepreneurs to do because there's so many shiny objects. There's so many of them, right? Like, "Hey, I'm coming in, I'm doing this one thing and that's it," and then along the way, there's like some other little thing that's like, "Hey, I need your attention." [00:15:04] And it's so tempting to go, "Ooh, but I could focus on that." Like, " let me just go over here for a second," and like, you guys just stayed the course. You like stay on point. And I think that's that's something I really have to give you guys like a huge compliment on because it's hard to do that. It's really difficult to do that. And you guys do it really well.  [00:15:25] Jill: Thank you.  [00:15:26] Jason: Yeah. And so you've interacted with several of our team members, right? It's not just the Jason show or the Jason and Sarah show. And I think that's what a lot of people think. Could you just comment a little bit on DoorGrow's team? You don't have to remember everybody's names, but yeah.  [00:15:43] Jill: Well the two that I've probably enjoyed the most is Clint. He's like the coolest surfer dude in the whole wide world, but he's sharp as a tack. You know, "we're just going to buy a $5 million company." He's the exact person to teach you how to be cool and do acquisitions and whatnot. [00:16:03] And that you can see why he's so successful because he's a joy to listen to.  [00:16:07] Jason: Yeah, he's fun.  [00:16:08] Jill: And ironically considering an acquisition in the middle of all listening to him and he took his time out, sent me a lot of information and questions I should ask and what due diligence I should do. So, I mean, his wealth of all the years that he's done that, enticed in a few documents was, I could have never created that. And then Roya, she's a ball of energy and I'm all into manifesting and all that. So, I mean, not many people you can feel through a computer screen with their energy, you know, that's heard of talent that she has.  [00:16:43] Jason: Yeah, she's our dangerously powerful mindset coach. And teaches the advanced sales stuff. [00:16:51] She's yeah she's had quite an impact. Yeah.  [00:16:54] Jill: Yeah. For sure.  [00:16:56] I went to DoorGrow live, which was fantastic to connect with everybody. But thanks to DoorGrow and Alex being also trained as a DoorGrow. I'm taking my first three week vacation in 10 years.  [00:17:08] Jason: That's amazing. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Your business will be in good hands with Alex and and we've got his back. So. For sure. So awesome. Yep. Property managers, if you're listening to this and you have not taken a significant vacation in the last five years, when's your turn? Maybe it's time to reach out and let us help you take- this is one of the most common things that we hear, especially this summer. [00:17:36] Lots of our clients are taking vacations like for the first time ever, or in the first time in a long time, or it's a longer vacation than they've been able to take.  [00:17:45] Sarah: Brandon and Mark, they took off the majority of July, both of them, took off the majority of July, and they're like, "things were fine, like things were okay," I'm like, "that's great, that's how it should work," and if we set it up that way, then things can work that way.  [00:18:01] Jason: For sure. Yeah, one of our mentors had this quote, I don't know where it came from, but he said, the more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is. Ooh, like that one. So Jill's working on making herself less valuable to the business. I've made DoorGrow less of the Jason show, and we've got all these amazing coaches and yeah, and that's the goal, right? We're able to provide more value and it allows us to be more free as entrepreneurs. To do the things that we really enjoy doing and eventually maybe to do nothing. If that's really the goal. I don't know. Jill, will have to find something to do. She's going to trap the world. She'll think we're not going to do nothing. Exactly. We're not going to do nothing. I don't think Jill knows what to do.  [00:18:43] Jill: We just want freedom to not always to be working.  [00:18:46] Jason: There you go. Yeah.  [00:18:48] Sarah: You can choose the things you do.  [00:18:50] Jill: Yeah.  [00:18:51] Jason: Well, we've really appreciated having you both in the program. You know, the, Sarah mentioned about you, but what I've noticed is Jill, you have this gift of positivity, it seems to rub off on everyone around you. We've really enjoyed having you in the program. Everyone's like, "Oh, we love Jill." All of our coaches and team members love Jill. And you can see Alex has like got a positive, you know, energy going on as well. And so you've created a really good culture on your team and in your business. And I don't know if it's always been that way, but I know that's something that's important to us at DoorGrow is making sure everybody has good culture with their business and with their team. So can you touch on culture just a little bit? [00:19:30] Jill: Well, I think connection and culture is the most important thing. If I don't have it here, how is a client going to want to be attracted to us? You know, how is that going to work? You know, if you don't have a positive look on the industry, the business... I mean, this is anybody that calls us is frustrated with property management and say, "here, we love to do property management." They're like, "I need you!" [00:19:51] you know, tenants and everybody gets to complain to us and we have to listen to them and, you know, do our job, but in these walls of this company, we don't have to do that. We can vent to each other. We can laugh. We don't complain. We more laugh about situations than we do complain. And I think I've been a good leader as far as that goes. But I think that also because I have that energy, I want to attract that energy. And so those people are, who are working here and stay.  [00:20:18] Jason: I love that. I mean, I think having a culture in which complaining is not the norm. I mean, it's easy to complain in property management. Right? And I'm sure there's a lot of you listening that are like, " I complain all the time. I complain every day," like reducing that complaining in the business and creating a culture where the team don't see that it's totally okay to just complain all the time. Because if you're complaining about your clients, they're going to feel that. They're not going to want to work with somebody that's, they know is just going to be complaining about them behind their back. [00:20:47] And so I think that's really powerful. And I think that there's a lot of joking in property management, and I think if you can't laugh about it, then you're just going to be hurt by it, and so...  [00:20:58] Jill: and the only way you make a lot of money is to do the things that nobody wants to do. [00:21:02] Jason: There you go. And they will pay you a pretty penny to do it. [00:21:05] Alex: Yeah, we don't have one person that dreads coming to work every day. That's for sure. Everybody's like, "oh shoot. It's monday. Let's go!"  [00:21:11] Jill: We're a little family.  [00:21:13] Jason: Awesome. Yeah, I love that. You have a good culture. So, cool well, anything else we should chat about? What are the biggest takeaways you feel like you've gotten from being part of working with DoorGrow for those listening? [00:21:28] Jill: I think first of all to make sure that I express my purpose to everybody, you know, start with the person.  [00:21:34] Jason: Has that changed your close rate? Has that changed how clients respond to you?  [00:21:39] Jill: Oh, just overall being brave enough to start with that, you know, I always assume they don't care, you know they're not calling for my me personally, but they are, you know, and some would get to know me on a personal level over time, but I never started the conversation with that. [00:21:54] I always started it with "I love property management" and I think they could feel our energy, but not deep down what my life purpose is. So, and how I could tie that back into having them become our client. But it gets a personal, it makes it a personal fit right away or not.  [00:22:11] Jason: Yeah. They either trust your motives and like them or they don't, but they, at least they know what your motives are. Otherwise they're just going to assume you just want their money.  [00:22:20] Jill: Yeah. The name change was a huge one. And then the third, I think final one for me is. When you did your stack deck and it wasn't like perfectly animated with all these designs and it looked great. And I'm fine with it. I stopped judging my marketing to have to be the caliber of Coca Cola. [00:22:40] I don't have designers out there. I don't want to spend design. So just produce it and get it out there and make it look kind of quirky and we're quirky anyway. So I don't know why I was thinking that we had to be this high level, corporate marketing program in order for it to work.  [00:22:54] Jason: I think done is better than perfect for sure. [00:22:57] That's one of my  [00:22:57] Alex: favorite things is like, no, just get it complete and then we'll move on and we'll get the next thing done.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah. Done makes money. And you've made a lot of changes. You've gotten a lot of things done that are going to help shore up leaks that make you a lot more money. And. Yeah. A lot of people get really caught up on things being so perfect. [00:23:14] They don't get as nearly as much done. So kudos to both of you for implementing and taking action. So, well, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the show. What do you feel like, what are some tangible results besides the brand? Revenue doors, any other shifts that you've seen in the business since joining? [00:23:33] Jill: Well, we've gotten rid of a lot of the properties. I had the guts to say to a couple owners, you know, "You have to either sell this property or find another manager because it's too much of a liability. And I'm scared to because X Y Z and so should you." And obviously it's a great time to sell last year. So this is the time get to get a better asset, 1031 exchange it, or let's you know, we need to drop it by the end of the year. I didn't, you know, say we're going to drop you on 30 days, but they, most of them, most of those as a consulting, they trust us and know us and they sold those properties. We have two that are closing this week, our last two that are closing and we had problems. Yeah, problems. So we've gotten rid of a lot of problems since the beginning and liability issues, you know, you know, liabilities. So that's that's, I think our biggest deal and it's allowed other doors to come in. [00:24:28] It's amazing what you let go just energetically things will fill its place. So door wise, I would say we're at about the same, but revenue has gone up 20%.  [00:24:38] Alex: We've been getting higher-end properties instead of, you know, things that were D class properties that we didn't want.  [00:24:44] Jason: Love it. 20 percent more revenue. Awesome, that does not suck.  [00:24:48] Sarah: And getting rid of the problem, right?  [00:24:55] Jason: Well, we appreciate you being clients and we're super excited to see your progression through the DoorGrow code, and this business I think that could easily be at a thousand doors in the next two to three years. It's totally doable, especially if you start doing some of the acquisition deals, like it's going to be really interesting once you get some of these systems in place, then you're ready to just scale like crazy. So excited to see what you do. All right. Well then we'll go ahead and wrap up. Appreciate you being on the show. [00:25:25] Thanks for hanging out with us, Alex and Jill. Thank you. Great.  [00:25:29] For those listening, if you want to be like Alex and Jill and make good decisions and grow your business in a healthy way, and maybe increase your revenue 20%. aNd clean up your portfolio and optimize your sales pipeline so you make more money, more easily reach out to DoorGrow. [00:25:45] We would love to take a look at your business and see if we can help you. The answer is: we can... most likely and see if you'd be a good fit for our program. You can check us out at doorgrow. com. There's a big pink button on the home page says "I want to grow." click that. Do the three steps there to see if you'd be a good candidate to work with us, and until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone  [00:26:08] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:26:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today on the podcast, Sarah joins us from Minnesota. Sarah got COVID-19 very early on in her first pregnancy during the height of the pandemic. The protocol at her practice was to recommend a precautionary 39-week induction. Sarah trusted her doctor and consented to the induction along with other interventions that were suggested. Her birth ended in a Cesarean under general anesthesia. During recovery, Sarah's knees would buckle to the point where she needed assistance walking and fell until the problem slowly resolved. When she achieved her VBAC, Sarah was able to immediately walk unassisted. She wasn't groggy from just having had anesthesia. Her throat didn't hurt. She got the immediate skin-to-skin she missed the first time.Sarah is such an amazing example of how powerful a VBAC birth can be, especially with the right prep and the right team. We just love how hands-off and supportive her doctor was. Sarah went into her birth mentally and physically strong. She labored hard, stayed calm, and pushed her baby boy out in 20 minutes!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link. We have a story for you today coming from Minnesota. We have our friend, Sarah. And Sarah, tell me. Did you have your babies both in Minnesota or have you moved since then? Sarah: Yes, both in Minnesota. Meagan: Both in Minnesota. All right, so Minnesota parents, listen up. This is a wonderful episode in your area. Review of the WeekAs always, we have a Review of the week but first I want to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Sarah and I were just talking about how we have seen so many COVID-19 stories coming through. They had their C-section through COVID-19 or even had their VBAC during COVID-19 and then now they have gone on to VBAC. There is definitely a trend of situations that we are seeing so I'm just so curious today. Go comment on today's episode and let us know if you have any relation, but a lot of providers are wanting to induce if you have the virus, COVID-19. Sarah, that was kind of the case with you, right? They wanted to induce because you had COVID-19. Sarah: Yes. That was kind of the standard of care at that point. Meagan: Yes, which is kind of interesting to think about the new standard of care. I really am curious to see one day what the Cesarean rates did during COVID-19. You know, there is some evidence here and there on it, but I'm really curious to see what the Cesarean rate did because we do have a lot of people saying that they were induced because they had COVID and then they ended in a Cesarean. So we're going to talk a little bit. She's going to share her birth and her induction story that then led to her VBAC. But of course, we have that review. It is by Raving Abbeh and the title is “Confidence.” It says, “I found this podcast at 34 weeks pregnant and it helped me gain the confidence to fight for my chance and get a VBAC. I hope to submit a success story in a few weeks.” And guess what? This was also during 2020, so Raving Abbeh, if you haven't submitted your story, we would love you to and as always, you guys, we're always accepting stories. We definitely record in chunks, so know that if it takes time, that doesn't mean you haven't been chosen or you will never be chosen, but if you want to submit your story, go to thevbaclink.com/share. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Sarah: I'm so excited. Meagan: I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Well, tell us more about this 39-week induction and why they were saying it was the new norm. It was the protocol, right? Sarah: Yes. So at this time, I was working full-time in the hospital where I gave birth as a radiographer– an X-ray tech. I was kind of in the world a little bit. It was definitely not a fun time to work in the hospital. I actually tested positive when I was 8 weeks pregnant, so very newly pregnant. I was seeing family med for my provider and what they were doing at that time, they said, “Okay. This is what's going to be different. You're going to meet with a high-risk OB who specialized in COVID.” I would have growth ultrasounds every 4 weeks and then also, they were recommending this induction at 39 weeks. When I asked about that, what she said was that they had seen issues with the placenta. That was the reason that they had. I actually looked back on it now and I think in the study, they really only had 16 pregnant people so that was what they were basing this all off on. Meagan: Which is really nothing to start making a protocol so wide-ranged. Sarah: Right. Right. And actually, right now, my sister-in-law had COVID and she's pregnant. She had COVID at the same time I did at 8 weeks, but now it's 2023 and her doctor is not doing the growth ultrasounds. They're not recommending induction. There actually is nothing different with her current, right-now pregnancy which I find interesting. Meagan: Interesting, right? Right? Sarah: But again, it can range. Meagan: In 2020, it's interesting because they were like, “Oh, we're going to have you with this provider who specializes in COVID pregnancies,” but how does someone specialize that fast? Sarah: Right. The person that was the specialized person was the highest-up person in the department of OB. Meagan: Okay, so definitely a specialized OB. Okay. Sarah: Right. I actually only ended up meeting up with her one time because if there was anything abnormal, that's when I would go to her but my pregnancy was completely normal. I had no issues related to COVID or related to anything else which was obviously a blessing, but kind of also a bummer because now, I'm going to have this completely unnecessary induction at 39 weeks.Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: She did mention at the time that if I wanted to go past 39 weeks, I could definitely make that choice but she would do NSTs. Now after learning so much and being where I am now, I would have been like, “Okay. Let's go longer and do NSTs,” but at the time as a first-time parent, I was like, “That sounds kind of weird. Let's just do what you think.” Meagan: It sounds intense with all of these extra visits. It's a lot. It sounds like a lot. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise, about that pregnancy, being a first-time parent and having this medical background, it's no surprise probably that my attitudes towards the doctors were that I completely trusted their knowledge with the COVID stuff because it was so new. Meagan: Oh yeah, and scary. Sarah: Yeah, definitely, but I was completely unaware that there was such a wide range of ways to treat pregnancies and so many different attitudes on how to birth babies. I was just clueless to the whole thing about the cascade of interventions and why do inductions have an increased risk of C-section? I was completely clueless to it. I am just used to with a doctor, you have a certain condition and there are ways to treat it. It was very narrow. But with birth, there are midwives. There are doulas. There are so many different ways to treat someone's birth and pregnancy that was just over my head. When people would ask me, “Oh, why are you having an induction?” and tell me that maybe I shouldn't do that, I was like, “Oh, well why wouldn't I when they say that is the best thing to do for this COVID situation?” For me, it was like, “Well, they know better than me.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Sarah: I think you say all the time that you don't know what you don't know. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know and you can't judge yourself for not knowing what you don't know. Sarah: Yes. I definitely had to work through forgiving myself for sure. Meagan: Yeah. You have to take the information. I think I talked about this too. My husband had said this. We took the information we were given and made the best choice that we felt we had with the information provided. Sarah:  Yes. Meagan: Right? And that's what you did. Sarah: Right. Honestly, it's funny now. Even just preparing for birth in general, take away the COVID part, it's kind of funny how I did basically nothing to prepare for birth. I just focused on my registry and other things like that after the baby got there. It was kind of because I had this, “Oh if I go with the flow, I'll have the best outcome. I don't want to put too many expectations on myself. I don't want to pressure myself. I'm just going to go with the flow. I don't know how my body is going to handle it,” which does have a place. There is a goodness to that, but I think I was a little too extreme where I was like, “My mom had C-sections. I know if that happens, it happens.” It was just very, “Whatever happens, happens.” Now, I look back and I'm like, “Well, now all I did was have no tools in my toolbox to deal with pain, labor, or resources to help make those hard decisions that I was going to have to make.” I had nothing in the background to help me with that. Meagan: No tools in your toolbox. Sarah: Exactly. That's why it was very different for my second birth but at that time, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, happens. I don't know what's going to happen to me or how my body is going to take it, so we'll just see what happens.” I was scheduled at 39 weeks on a Monday and actually, that Friday before, they called me and said, “Hey, do you want to come in early? We have a lot of people scheduled on Monday.” I was like, “Oh, I'm excited to meet my baby. I'll go in even earlier,” which is like, oh. Okay. That weekend, we were actually moving into our new house an hour away. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: We actually spent one night at our new house and the next day we drove back to Rochester to have our baby but we were so excited. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Sarah: I wasn't even thinking about anything else. We were scheduled for a 7:00 PM Saturday appointment then. When I got there, I was completely 0% dilated. Closed. 0, 0, 0, -3 station. Furthest from ready. Meagan: Not ready to have a baby, yeah. Sarah: No. So they started me with Cytotec overnight and in the morning, they placed the Cook catheter then they started Pitocin right after. I faintly remember watching Beauty and the Beast bouncing on a ball, but that was the extent of any movement in my labor. Like I said, I didn't prepare for anything. I just was like, “Oh, bounce on a ball. Everyone says that's good.” I didn't do much. But what did start happening was the baby was having decels, not liking the Pitocin, so I had to get moved from side to side. I was lying on the bed– not the best position to have the baby not be so high up. Meagan: Right. Sarah: But then by 10:00 AM, they took out the Cook catheter. I was 4 centimeters dilated. Things were moving along. But then at 11:00, they had to turn down the Pitocin because again, the baby was still not tolerating it very well. Then I felt a big pop in my belly and I was like, “Oh, is this what it feels like when your water breaks?” I was excited. I'm like, “Oh, that sounded like a balloon popping.” So they came in and they were like, “No, we don't see anything. Your water didn't break.” I was like, “Oh, okay sure.” Meagan: I felt something. Sarah: So then a half hour later, they came back in because they had to actually turn off the Pitocin because the baby still wasn't happy. They checked me and they're like, “Oh, there's all your water,” and it gushed out on them. So I was like, “Okay, well at least I know that I can trust my intuition even though you didn't quite believe me.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: But I'm not crazy. It did break. The contractions were getting really intense at this point. I tried laughing gas. It didn't really work. At that point, I decided, “Okay. I'm ready for an epidural. I feel like I've gotten as far as I can with what I prepared,” which was nothing. I actually found out this after the fact, but at this point, they actually gave me medicine to stop my contractions. Meagan: Like terbutaline or something?Sarah: Yes, exactly. They gave me that at this point. I actually have no recollection of this, but I was able to look at my records after the fact and I was like, “Oh, I never knew they even gave me that.” Apparently, they gave me that to stop things or slow them down or whatever. I was about 5 centimeters dilated at this point and they placed the epidural. Everything went smoothly with that and then an hour later, they were like, “Oh, we're going to start the Pitocin again.” I was like, “Okay.” I was 5 centimeters at that point and then 40 minutes later, they checked me and I was 9 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa, so your body went into total relaxation mode and dilated. Sarah: Yes. Yes. I was like, “Cool. That was fast.” They had just sent away the doctor. They had to call her back. Shortly after that, I was at 10 centimeters, ready to go. This is when they had me start pushing. One important part that I know now is that I don't remember ever feeling pressure or the urge to push or anything like that. They were just like, “Okay. It's time to push.” I'm like, “Okay.”I did end up pushing for about 3 hours. They did let me try a few different positions. They tried to turn down my epidural to help too, but she never really progressed past that zero station. So nothing was happening. I was mostly on my back for all of it.I remember them saying that they would let me push for the most at 4 hours, but at the 3-hour mark, I was exhausted. I felt like we had made no progress. I was just like, “Nothing's going to change in another hour at this point for me. I don't know what I'm doing. You try to tell me how to push. I still don't know.” Meagan: Yeah. You're just like, “I'm tired.” Sarah: Exactly. The contractions were beginning to be really painful. Again, I didn't really have a way to cope with them. The pushing wasn't working so I consented to the C-section. I just remember feeling so defeated and just crying, being wheeled into the OR. My doctor stayed right by my head and talked to me until my husband was supposed to come in because I kept saying, “Hey, I feel these contractions. They are strong.” They were trying to give me all of the medicine to numb me enough. They were doing the prick test to make sure that I couldn't feel it and I just remember it was really hard because my nose was plugged up from crying. I felt like I couldn't breathe anyway. I wasn't sure about the pokes. I was like, “They are sharp to me. I feel them. They don't feel like pressure. They feel sharp.” They were like, “Okay. Well, we're going to have to put you under.” They put the mask on me. I breathed in and went to sleep. Meagan: And you were gone. Sarah: Yep. Then I was gone. Meagan: Your husband probably never came in then? Sarah: So he did get to go into the OR. She was born. They let him go in so he was all gowned up. He was in the OR. He kind of tells it like, “Yeah, it was so weird. I looked over and there you were on the table.” He wasn't so close to me. Meagan: Sleeping. Sarah: But yeah. I was sleeping. He did get to do skin-to-skin. They let him do that in the OR which was really nice. They got a bunch of pictures of her getting weighed and him cutting the cord in there so it was nice to have some of those pictures that I can look back on. Meagan: Right. Sarah: That's something. Meagan: Right, yeah. It helps you relate, too, when you're not awake. Sarah: Exactly. It was definitely a weird experience. But when I did come to, apparently, I had been awake longer but you know how that works. When you're waking up from anesthesia, it's kind of weird. But apparently, when I woke up, they told me that I was just like, “Where's the baby? Where's the baby? Where's the baby?” They rushed me back. I don't remember any of that, but what I do remember is when I woke up, my throat was so sore and hurt so bad. But she was on me and she latched immediately and started feeding so that was really special. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: Just how she was able to eat right away and I didn't have any problems with that which was really nice. I know that can happen sometimes. That's basically that birth. Meagan: An unexpected ending and a less-ideal situation, but then to come out and have things work out really nicely was probably really healing and comforting. Sarah: Yes. Right away, I was definitely happy. She was healthy. I was okay. She was eating. But I remember just recovering from a C-section, you're in a fog. I remember my legs being in those machines to keep the blood flowing, having a catheter, having my sore throat, and whispering to talk. That kind of thing was definitely not a fun recovery in that aspect right immediately after. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: I actually had a really weird thing. I had problems with my knees. Meagan: Oh. Sarah: I have never heard anyone else talk about this. Meagan: Interesting, like wobbly and strong? Sarah: So what happened was once they took out the catheter and then they give you the, “Okay, it's time to try to go to the bathroom for the first time.” When I tried to stand up, my knees would just buckle. The first day, I had to have two people assist me to the bathroom. The second day, it was also a two-assist. Slowly, they started to not always buckle. I was in the hospital, I think, for four days. Four or five days. Eventually, they wouldn't buckle but when I got home, they would buckle when I went upstairs. I did fall twice but slowly, they did get better. It was fine. It was just if I unexpectedly took a step. My cat scared me and I stepped and then I would fall because my knee wasn't expecting it. Meagan: I just looked it up because I am legitimately curious. It says, “Acute lower limb compartment syndrome after a Cesarean.” Sarah: Oh. Hmm. Meagan: Interesting. So it can happen. Sarah: Interesting. I was just kind of assuming it was a mix of me being numbed from the waist down for hours and then my legs being up in the air for hours and then being in the C-section, and then also laying down. Do you know what I mean? Something with that, but no doctor or anything ever said anything to me about it. They were just like, “Oh, okay. That's weird.” Meagan: Yeah. Really, really interesting. It says that it's rare. Sarah: Oh. Meagan: It's pretty rare, so you get to be in one of those rare groups. Thank you for sharing. Sarah: Yeah, so otherwise, I hadn't really fully processed the birth but every time I would tell my birth story, I would choke up or cry and that's when I realized, “Oh, maybe I didn't really like that very much” because at first, you're just happy the baby is okay and you're okay. I actually remember right afterward, I was like, “Oh, okay for any other baby, I'll just schedule a C-section. This time it will be planned and I'm going to be awake for it.” I honestly wasn't even thinking about VBAC right away. I was just like, “Oh, the future will be easier. It will be fine.” But when my daughter was around 6 months old, I started to listen to The Birth Hour and I found myself searching C-section stories, looking for things like mine which led me to hearing VBAC stories, searching those out, and then finally finding The VBAC Link. That was the big game changer. I am so appreciative of you guys having this podcast and keeping it going on and all that. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: Such an inspiration. I learned so much even from both podcasts about interventions, doulas, birth teams, and most importantly, trusting in a woman's body. It kind of leads me to this big thing. It's like, why do we have to go through some sort of trauma to become an advocate for women and educate ourselves? Meagan: Right? Sarah: I feel like that's such a theme. Meagan: It's so true though. It's so true. Why do we have to go through a really crappy experience? It doesn't always have to be crappy. I'm not saying C-sections are crappy, but a big experience to have passion and to feel that motivation behind that.Sarah: Exactly. Yep. Sometimes, it's so hard because it's like when you talk to someone who hasn't been affected by this kind of situation where it doesn't go their way in the hospital, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. “You can't trust the doctors.” That's not what we're saying. It's so much more than that. Meagan: It is. It really is. It's not even just in birth. Truly, right? My husband does not do what he does, I think, mainly just because he didn't want to do it one day. It was like, “Hey, this really unfortunate situation happened to someone I love and I want to be available in a different manner to help them or help anybody else.” So he took on his profession. It's like IBCLCs– I'm sure a lot of them have had unfortunate or poor nursing experiences and are like, “We want to help other people have better experiences.”Sarah: Yes, because it's the information that, “Oh, wow.” It makes complete sense that, “Oh, things might go a little bit better if you let your body naturally do it.” Oh, well yeah. That makes sense. It makes sense that, “Oh, if I have someone who's trained in positioning, maybe if I move my body in this way, then I can get my baby in a better position to come out better. Oh, that makes sense. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't my doctor say, ‘Hey, there are some positions that can help.'” It's confusing to me. It's like, well that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So obviously, I just dove right into all of the VBAC stuff and learning all about that and listening to different stories. I was super excited for my next pregnancy because I had made the decision, “Yes. I'm going to go for a VBAC and I'm super excited about it.” I was ready to do all of the things to make it more successful. We got pregnant when my daughter was around 15 months old. We wanted a two-year age gap and they're both two years apart in April so that worked out for us. Meagan: Perfectly, yeah. Sarah: So the things I did to make it more successful– they are all things that people on this podcast talk about. For physical things, it was workouts that focused on birth prep. I didn't do anything crazy like walking for miles and miles every day. I just did the minimal which was doing some exercises every day for hips opening, cat/cow, and all of that stuff. I did the Miles Circuit later on in pregnancy every day. I ate my dates every day. I drank my tea.Then I think the biggest thing, too, is mentally preparing. For mentally preparing, I got my doula. I really love that the doula does the meetings before the birth. I didn't even know that when I had heard people talk about doulas but meeting before and talking about what birth plan I wanted, what things– Meagan: Your desires. Sarah: Exactly and what things could happen. I'm like, “This would be so helpful for a first-time parent to know all of this stuff.” I wish I had gotten her with my first. Also, just talking about coping mechanisms, what are some positions that we are going to do, talk about scenarios. It was great. Then I also, for mentally preparing, I looked up a bunch of different coping mechanisms. I actually did Hypnobabies. I wasn't consistent with the meditation, but it was very helpful to practice the breathing and visualization. Meagan: I did too. I did it as well. Sarah: I was really bad at the meditations so that didn't stick with me, but it was really, really great to practice the breathing and all of that. And honestly, just listening to birth stories is mentally preparing because I would really only focus on positive stories toward the end of my pregnancy. I was like, “Okay, now we are in the home stretch. We are just going to stick to all of the positive ones.” The big thing, too, was finding my provider. I joined The VBAC Cesarean Support Group on Facebook way earlier and everyone had all of the recommendations of who to go to. My provider is actually family med, but he is more like a midwife. Actually, my doula said that he's actually more crunchy than a midwife as a family med. For all of the births that she attended, she said, “He is more hands-off than a midwife.” I'm like, “Wow.” Meagan: Wow, that's cool. Sarah: And what's great is that he attends all of his births so there is no rotating call schedule. Meagan: Which is huge. Sarah: There's no, “Who's going to be there?” He's very trusting of women's bodies. I did my due diligence and I asked him, “How often have you personally seen a uterine rupture? How often do you use the vacuum? How often have you done episiotomies?” You know, so just asking him all of the things. He had really great responses and I felt really solid with him. Meagan: Which is really important, right? To have those conversations also. We know that when they come in and they say, “Hey, do you have any questions?” It's really okay to ask questions. Sarah: Yes. That's the big thing. So because he's not an OB, I had to go do a consult with the OB that he works with in the hospital. The OB who works in the hospital definitely wasn't making me fearful, but there's a certain form you have to fill out that says, “Hey, obviously if you're successful with your TOLAC, that's going to be the safest option for you. But if you're not successful, that's the least safe.” It's easy to plant doubt, but after I saw him again, I asked my provider, “How often do you see it?” It was such a small amount and since he's one of the VBAC go-tos, I felt very confident with him. It was really nice to have that fear taken away in that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: And then this is kind of interesting. Just for fun, I did message my old provider at my previous hospital just to see what she would say about my chances for VBAC. I actually messaged her before I was pregnant. I said, “Hey, I am kind of processing and struggling from my C-section. What do you think about my chance for VBAC?” It was just on a message. What she said was, “You did everything you could at that time to have her vaginally, but she just didn't fit your pelvis for whatever reason. We think of fitting as a lock and key situation. Both pieces have to work together to open, so there's no way to know if a future baby would ever fit your pelvis better than she did.” Then she kind of went on. I thought, “Nope.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not taking that in.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It was interesting. Meagan: Thank you so much, but no thanks. Sarah: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, “I don't think she didn't fit my pelvis. That's not a thing.” Meagan: But you know, it's an easy thing for people to say or diagnose. It's like, “Oh, well your baby was perfect. You were perfect, but the two together didn't really match that time.” Sarah: Right. Meagan: That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. We just don't know. Sarah: Again, we can't go back in time and have me try something different. Meagan: Yes, yes. Sarah: But I think it's interesting that she said that. Meagan: It is. Sarah: Again, I talked to my doctor. He's like, “Oh yeah. Great. Let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: He said, “You've got this.” So you know. Otherwise, I'm preparing. This is the funny thing too, again. At first, I didn't have any intention of trying to go unmedicated. At first. I was like, “I definitely want to VBAC,” but I wasn't trying to do that. I was just focused on the VBAC part. But once you hear enough birth stories, you know that if I do all of this preparation and I go as long as I can without this intervention, I'm going to have the best possible chance of a healthy vaginal birth. If it still ends in a C-section, it's because that was what had to happen not because I didn't know any better. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So that's when I was like, “Yes, okay. It makes sense for me to try. I should just try to go unmedicated. I should just do it. Whatever happens, happens.” I still am keeping my go-with-the-flow but with a lot of preparation. It was kind of funny because when I would tell people that, “I'm trying to go unmedicated,” people will say the craziest things to you. Meagan: Right? “I could never.” Sarah: Yes, or “I know someone who did and it was the worst thing they ever chose to do. They said, ‘Never do that.'” It's like, I know and I've heard many, many stories of people doing it and are very happy with the outcome. So definitely right before, I was 37 weeks. I was like, “I'm going to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.” Everybody talks about it, but I just wanted to hone in and focus on those unmedicated birth stories and just say, “How did you guys do this? How was it successful?” That was really helpful. I really liked that book. That was really good. Meagan: Yeah. I really like it too. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise in this pregnancy though, I physically felt really good. I got Braxton Hicks contractions which I didn't have in my first pregnancy. That was definitely new. Meagan: Yes. Probably exciting. Sarah: It was exciting. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Every birth is different.” That was one of the Hypnobabies thing that stuck with me. Each baby is different. Your birth is going to be different. Don't let that fear creep in on you. But at 33 weeks, I found out the baby was breech so that was scary. Meagan: Yeah. It throws you for a loop, right? Sarah: Yes. When I found out that he was breech, I immediately messaged my doula. She gave me Spinning Babies exercises to do every day. I was making sure I was sitting forward and all of that stuff. Then I went to see a chiropractor first and then she also gave me this massage therapist who was trained in breech balancing massage. I went to both of those and the baby was flipped at my next appointment at 35 weeks. Meagan: Yay. Sarah: So I was very happy. The coolest thing with the massage therapist—in our state, I'm pretty sure she is maybe the only one who does this breech balancing massage. She told me because I actually went to do a follow-up appointment. Even though he was already head down, I was like, “Let's just go again to make sure.” She said that she was treating six other breech moms at that time and they had all flipped when I came back from my second appointment. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: Yeah. I'm always in the groups. I'm like, “If anyone is breech, try this specific breech balancing massage. Yeah.” It's really interesting just listening to her talk about it because she is so knowledgeable about, “Hey, your baby is breech for a reason. You have these muscles that get tightened. Your pelvis is this bowl and if things are in the wrong position, the baby wants to be head down. If I can release all of these muscles and make more space in there, even if the massage might not on its own make your baby flip, but giving your baby that space, then your ECV is more successful if you do that. Meagan: Right. Sarah: I was very happy because I had done all of this work and hyped myself up. I wouldn't want to have to schedule a C-section for this reason after all of that but if it happened, it happened. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: So everything was going good then until my 39-week appointment. I had a high blood pressure reading so I was like, “Oh great.” But my doctor was not worried. He had me do an NST, labs, and monitor at home. I came back in a few days and everything was good. That was nice. Actually, the day that I went back for my follow-up for my high blood pressure was the day that I got my birth records. They had my birth records there for me. I had gone this whole time. I was almost 40 weeks and I was like, “I still really want to see.” Meagan: You had requested them? Sarah: Yeah, and it just took a really long time to get them. When I had that appointment, I was able to get my birth records earlier than I thought. I didn't think I was even going to get them by the time I had the baby. I was able to read through them and kind of work through it. My doula was like, “Oh, do you want to call and talk about it?” I was like, “Yes.” It was kind of like a fear release for me because that night I went into labor. Meagan: Yeah. Did you find anything in there that you didn't know before? Sarah: I mean, that one thing was that terbutaline. I didn't know that. And then I was just curious about some of the dilation. Also, I saw on my records too that the surgeon who did my C-section put, “This patient is a candidate for a TOLAC.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah: It was nice just to have that and to see that the surgeon who did my C-section would put that on my note like, “Yeah. They are a candidate.”Meagan: Yeah, it's helpful. Sarah: Just working through it too was nice to see it in a timeline. So that night was the night I went into labor. At 2:00 AM, I woke up with my contractions. Right away, they were 3-7 minutes apart. I had the same situation three weeks before where I woke up and had contractions that were 3-7 minutes apart, but they fizzled out and didn't come back. I only had that situation one time earlier. So I was like, “Oh, this could be another practice. This could be the real thing.” But they were stronger than the last time. That's the biggest thing too. Even though they were so close together, I was handling them so well that I was like, “I think I'll just wait this out,” which is interesting because if you're a first-time mom, you're like, “Hey, this is 4-1-1. I'm having them.” Meagan: You have to go! Sarah: And they're long. A lot of them were long like at least a minute, but they just weren't strong so I was like, “Okay, well I'll wait.” Then my husband woke up at 4:00 AM. I was like, “Hey, I'm having these contractions.” His response was, “I'd better hurry up and go work. I've got some work to get done.” He's like, “Oh no. I gotta go.” So then he went away to go work on stuff. Then by 6:00 AM, I was like, “Okay.” I had a couple really strong ones so I was like, “Oh.” Then I was also getting back labor so I was like, “All right. Time to text the doula.” I was like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” She was like, “Well, your back pain might be because of the baby's position, so try to do the Miles Circuit. Eat a good breakfast. Hydrate. I'm preparing you for possibly a long day.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I had my bagel with cream cheese. I got my Body Armor drinks out, but when I tried to do the Miles Circuit, it was so intense. I could not. The minute I laid down and I had a contraction in the Miles Circuit position, the laying down one, it was like, “Whoa, no.” Meagan: Not gonna happen. Sarah: I'm like, “I think this is time for me to start going into some prep mode here.” So I dimmed the lights in my room. I had my ball but I actually didn't like bouncing on it so I never bounced on it. Meagan: Was it uncomfortable? Sarah: Yeah. For me, that seated position was uncomfortable. For me, I was in a forward-leaning position. I'd lean against the wall and sway or I'd have my husband come. I'd hug him and sway. I'm like, “This is working out okay.” The back labor was a different aspect that was like, “There's got to be something I can do for this back labor.” I messaged her and she's like, “Okay, well obviously have him try to do hip squeezes,” but he wasn't really getting the job done with the hip squeezes. She recommended the shower to also help us see if it's going to calm down or if it will keep going. I got in the shower and it was magic. The heat on the back was perfect. My favorite thing ever, but the hot water ran out after 15 minutes and I was so sad. Meagan: Oh shoot. Sarah: So the hot water ran out and I was like, “Oh man.” I got out of the shower and I was like, “Now we might just have to go to the hospital right now because I need hot water. I want to get in that tub.” That was my dream was getting in the tub. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So my doula checked in with me at this point and asked about the shower. I was like, “Yeah.” I think I was kind of in denial because I was like, “Oh, it's medium intense,” but they were still happening. She was like, “Okay, well maybe you should start heading in as long as they are staying 3-4 minutes consistently for an hour. Go ahead and start heading in.” At this point, she also tells me that she is actually in another birth. Then she joined me with the backup doula so she was at another birth. I was like, “Oh bummer.” But my backup doula ended up being amazing as well. But you know, when you're preparing with someone— Meagan: Can I just say right there that is a real thing? It's usually if you have to have a backup doula, it usually works out so well. Right? Sarah: Yeah, it was so good. Meagan: But like you were saying as I was cutting you off, as you were preparing with someone else, it's hard. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of a bummer because you know this person so well and you had worked with them, but it worked out perfectly fine too. I really like my backup doula. She's great as well. She told me, again because I was like, “Hey, what can I do for now? We're going to head in probably soon but what else can I do for this back pain?” She was like, “Do you have a heating pack?” I'm like, “Ooh, yes.” I was putting a hot pack on my back which again, wasn't hot enough for me. Meagan: You needed a hot tub. Sarah: It did something. At this point, my daughter had actually woken up because we were still at home. It was about 8:00 and she was so sweet. Every time I'd have a contraction, I'd go into my room. I'd have my calming music on and my swaying but then I would leave and I'd come back out with her. She was just so sad. She wasn't crying, but she had these big tears welling up in her eyes. I would hold her and she would pat my back. She was like, “It's okay.” It's like she knew that something was going on. I was like, “I'm okay. It's okay.” She was just kind of like, “What is going on?” I wasn't making loud, loud noises but I would be doing horse lips through them or moaning. Meagan: Coping. Sarah: Yeah, nothing too crazy, but for her, she could tell that something was going on. Luckily, my mother-in-law and sister-in-law came over shortly after that around 8:30ish. My sister-in-law took my daughter and was like, “Let's go play,” so she was good. She was good. My mother-in-law saved me because she said, “Oh, I will boil hot water.” So she got a big pot and boiled hot water. She put cloths in them and put those on my back. That was amazing. Meagan: I bet that felt really good. Sarah: Right. So at this point, my husband probably should have been getting the cars ready for us to go to the hospital, but instead, he was cleaning the house frantically. Meagan: That was probably his way of coping. “Oh my gosh, this is happening. I'm going to go work and then I'm going to go clean the house.” Sarah: Yes. Yes, so we're like, “Okay, it's time. We've got to get going.” I'm like, “Yeah. I've got to get going.” So finally, we get in the car. My back is soaking wet from these hot towels but they are saving me. Luckily, the drive was only 10 minutes. I had my hot towel in there. It wasn't the most comfortable, but we got there. They checked us in and they moved us to triage. At this point, again, the sitting position was not my position for labor. It was, “Nope, not happening.” I was always kneeling, facing the back of the bed. The back of the bed was up. I held onto it. Then when I was in triage, though, I didn't have my coping mechanisms. I didn't have my hot towels. My next plan that I had was the comb technique. I had packed a couple of combs. I was telling my husband, “All right. Your hip squeezes—” he was trying to find the combs and of course, he couldn't find the combs that I brought. But he did remember that he brought his own comb. Meagan: Hey! Sarah: So I was able to take his comb which I can say RIP to his comb. I used it. There were little comb tings, whatever they are called, the teeth of the comb were everywhere at the end of my birth but it definitely worked. So then every time I would have a contraction, I was pushing on the comb and breathing as they were checking me into triage. But they were able to kind of get the band on me. They gave me an ultrasound to make sure the baby was head down while I was in triage. Then they checked me. The nurse checked me and when she was down there, she was like, “Oh, it's really hard to tell how dilated you are because you have a bulging bag of waters and I really can't tell what you're doing.” She was like, “I think you're almost complete.” I'm like, “Okay.” Meagan: Whoa. Sarah: I'm like, “Okay.” This whole time, she'd been trying to call someone on her radio, but they were really busy. At that point, she was like, “Okay, let's get this room.” She was like, “I'll just wheel you on this bed unless you want to walk.” I'm like, “Actually, I want to walk.” I was actually thinking, “You know what? I think I want the bed that is in the room. The triage beds aren't probably as comfortable.” That's where my mind was so I was like, “Let me just walk.” Meagan: No. Sarah: So they get me in the room and again, my doula is on her way but she's not there yet. It's about, I think, 10:00. My doctor comes in. They put the little IV on my arm in case I need any medicine. All I'm doing right now- Meagan: Hep lock. Sarah: Yes, exactly. All I'm saying is that I just wanted to get in the tub. This is me the whole time in triage. Meagan: I just want the water. Sarah: I want to get in the tub. I want to get in the tub. The comb is helping, but I want to get in the tub. So he comes in. I'm like, “Hey, can I get in the tub?” He's like, “Well, you can but I should probably check you first if you want me to. If you're really close like the nurse thinks, then you'll have to push soon possibly.” I'm like, “Yes. Check me because then, if I'm not, I can get in the tub.” That was in the back of my mind. He checked me. He's down there for a while and I'm finally like, “Okay, you've got to get out.” He's like, “I understand why they are having a hard time. Yes. You have a big, bulging bag of waters. I can tell why she had a hard time and I think you're maybe 7 or 8 centimeters but I can't tell. As soon as the water breaks, you're going to be fast.” I was like, “Sounds like I can get in the tub.” He was like, “Yes, you can.” Meagan: You're like, “Perfect.” Sarah: Perfect. This is when my doula came around this time. She helped get the tub in motion because they were like, “Well, it's going to take a while. We've got to get you on these mobile monitors.” She went in and she got the water going and I was able to get in the tub. The only problem is that once I got in the tub, I was like, “Oh, I think I have to poop,” which is the magic— Meagan: Means you're going to have a baby! Sarah: She was like, “Well if you want, you can sit on the toilet and see if you actually do poop.” I was like, “Sounds like a plan.” I sat on the toilet facing the back of the toilet. I had my hands on my comb. My comb was with me everywhere. That's when I had the scary, scary transition contraction. I was so happy I had her there because she was saying all of the right things and at this point, I can't remember any of them except for her saying to me, “This is the hardest part, but it's also the shortest. You are in transition.” When I heard her, I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I was a little shaky. You just feel so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I don't know about this. I'm not sure about this.” Meagan: You start questioning. It's weird. Sarah: It is really, yeah. But she was saying all of the things I needed to hear, so I was good. So then I was like, “Okay, no poop is coming. Let's get back in the tub.” So I got back in the tub, and then I had probably one contraction and then a lab person came to the door and was like, “I've got to take your blood.” We're like, “Uh, okay. Let's just wait until she's in between contractions.” I'm like, “That's a good idea.” So she comes in. She turns on the light. I'm like, “This is throwing off my vibe.” She sits down next to me and she scans my band and then they were like, “Okay, let's wait for the next one.” The next contraction came and it was the, “My body is pushing! I'm pushing. Help!” I had that fetal ejection reflex, but my water was still intact so it was more of the water ejection reflex. Meagan: It was pushing that, yeah. Exactly. Sarah: My body did the thing where it pushed on its own. I've always heard about this when I've listened to the podcasts that this happens. I was always like, “Oh, I want that. That sounds nice. Do it for me,” but I did not like it. Nope. Especially because I was in the tub, maybe that's why, but I just felt so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I'm not controlling this pushing,” but I was also very excited because I knew that meant it was time. The lab person promptly left the bathroom and they never got my blood. I don't know why they needed it, but they never got it. Meagan: I know. It's so weird, “We need your blood right now.” It's like, “Really? Why?” Sarah: Yeah. Especially when, “Oh, I'm in transition about to have a baby.” I think you're okay. Meagan: Seriously. Sarah: I had that. So that happened and then my doula was like, “Well, do you think you want to get in the bed?” I'm like, “Yes. If a baby is coming, I need to be on the bed.” So again, my favorite position—even my tub position was my hands and knees. I was draping my hand on the back of the bed kind of in that—I wasn't really hands and knees because I started that way and then I ended up hugging a pillow and kind of squatting back. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Sarah: Yeah. I started pushing. Again, my waters hadn't broken yet which was obviously, this is a big thing with my provider. He is hands-off. Any other provider would have said, “Do you want me to break your water?” Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: That would have been a thing. It was kind of interesting that “Nope. I'm just doing it all on my own what my body wants to do.” I was pushing for about 10 minutes and then my waters exploded. They all knew it was coming, so no one got drenched, but it was so loud. Meagan: Everyone was probably a little sensitive in that area. They were probably like, “I'll walk over here.” Sarah: Yes. They expected it. My doctor was like, “I might get drenched, but I'm ready for it.” But he didn't. Meagan: That's okay. Sarah: It was so loud. I was shocked. It was like a gunshot. It felt like it was just like BAM when I pushed it out. So that was great. Then about 5 minutes after that, he was born. I pushed the waters out and then pushed him out. His head was right there and they were like, “Oh, you can reach down and feel the head.” I'm like, “I can't.” I had to reach down. I'm like, “My arms are too short.” So then I pushed him out. It was about two pushes I think.Yes, as soon as that water was done, yeah. He was two pushes after that. It was about 20 minutes of pushing total. Meagan: Whoa. That's like nothing. Sarah: Yeah, then I got to flip around. They put him on me and they didn't cut the cord until it was done pulsing. They did delayed cord clamping. They did the golden hour. He was just on my chest the whole time. I birthed my placenta which was fine. I did have a small tear which was just something I was scared about with an unmedicated birth. I'm like, “Oh, that will be not pleasant. I hope I don't but again, no idea. I probably will. Most people do.” It was a very small, I guess, second-degree tear but he numbed it. It just felt like a bunch of little bee stings. He numbed it and stitched it. It was fine. Baby was on my chest for that whole hour. What was crazy to me—I also consented to having the Pitocin drip afterward to get the— Meagan: The uterus to contract down, mhmm. Sarah: Yes, yes. I had that. Once that was done, I was able to just stand up and go to the bathroom. Meagan: Amazing, right? Sarah: I could just get up to go to the bathroom. I felt good. I felt fine. This was about 10:50 in the morning, so yeah. I was at the hospital for an hour and a half before he was born. Later that night around 5:00, we had family come over to see the baby that night. I felt as great as could be with still normal postpartum stuff. Meagan: Right. You did just push a baby out. But you weren't knocked out and coming too and all of those other things. Sarah: Yes. So yeah. That's about it for that.Meagan: Aw, yes. Well, congratulations. I'm sure that was a very different experience. I mean, I'm sure both babies were, right? We all cherish our babies' births but to be more present in your baby's birth, I'm sure definitely left an impact. Sarah: Yeah. Even my husband told me that for this time, he actually teared up and felt like it was just such a more of an emotional experience even for him which is completely understandable. It was actually really scary for him with the C-section he told me. They tell you, “Hey, we're going to go put your wife out. We're going to come back and get you and then you're going to come and be part of it.” He's sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. They just kind of say, “Hey, you can't go in anymore. We knocked her out. You have to wait here. It's going to be a while.” Then he's just like, “Oh, is she going to be okay?” It was a little scary for him too, that first one. This was a lot, obviously, more emotional and just a really cool experience for both of us. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was very healing for both of you like you said. That couldn't have been easy for him walking in and seeing you in that manner. I mean, the fact that he even brought it up. “It was weird when I walked in and you were laying there but then I'm over here doing skin-to-skin with this baby.” Sarah: Yep. Meagan: I'm sure it was so healing for both of you. Huge congrats. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Oh, and one thing to mention with the doctor is that because I gave him all of my birth plan too, at no point in this hospital situation was I ever offered anything. They knew what my preferences were. They never said anything about any interventions at all. They never said, “Do you want us to break this water?” Everyone was on board. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. You really didn't feel like you had to fight along the way. Sarah: Yeah. It was all supportive which is what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah, and what you deserved. Sarah: Yeah. It was really great to have that. Honestly, the thing I also really liked about pushing in that position where you are facing the back of the bed was that I didn't see all of the people staring at me. It was nice because—and not that it would have mattered—but I'm kind of socially anxious in that situation so it was nice to just be focused on my husband's hand holding me. I've got my comb. I'm breathing. I'm totally in it. I'm not looking around. With the C-section, that labor was like everyone was staring at you. You're pushing and trying and nothing is happening. It was so nice to just be here in my world. I never even saw anyone. Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes you see people's faces and they are not wanting to communicate with their mouths so they communicate with their faces. So when you are just staring at all of these people surrounding you, you find yourself, “What are they saying?” Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: You start questioning it. It pulls you out of that space. It sounds like you were really able to stay in that space because maybe you didn't see any of that. Sarah: Yes, exactly. When I was pushing, it was really hard. I'm not saying it was easy. “Oh, unmedicated in 20 minutes.” No. It was hard work. There were times when some doubts would creep in and I was like, “What if he's in the canal too long? Will he be okay?” It would be easy for those doubts to creep in, but my doctor and my doula were all saying the things that I needed to hear. “You're doing it. Your body knows what to do. Keep pushing this way. Push like you're going to poop.” They were saying all of the things to keep me focused. It would be so easy if you're not ready to give birth to a baby, that feeling would be very scary. You would feel very out of control. I could see how easy it would be for that to be very, very scary. Having the people there that knew what to say to me was very helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. The team is really that powerful though. It really, really is. Sarah: Mhmm. Meagan: So get a team. If you're looking for a doula, we've got doulas on our website that are VBAC-trained and certified. Get a good provider who is supportive and loving and willing to just like Dr. Ryan, just yeah. “Let's do this. Let's do it.” Super supportive from the get-go. “Yeah, we have to have this consult, but I'm not not supporting you by sending you to this consult.” Sarah: Exactly. Yep. He's like, “This person knows that I do a lot of VBACs. They've been through this before.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Meagan: Well, huge, huge congrats.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands