Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?

Surviving a genocide and then living on while your parents, husband and 5 of your 8 children have been killed. It seems impossible but this is the story of Mama Lambert. An exceptionally wise, courageous and compassionate woman who survived the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda in 1994 and dedicated the rest of her life serving thousands of other victims and genocide survivors through counselling. In this podcast we share her story with her daughter Denise, who also miraculously survived the genocide and with Anne-Marie de Brouwer one of the founders of Mukomeze, a foundation that empowers survivors of sexual violence during the genocide in Rwanda and who worked with Mama Lambert for over 20 years. It is a remarkable and moving story about a woman who showed the strength and power to live on despite the terrible fate she, her family and loved ones suffered. Mama Lambert was a finalist to the USIP Women Building Peace Award 2020 and a recipient to the 'Voice Achievers Award African Community Service 2019'. She wrote a book about her own life called “For Those Who Do Not Believe in Miracles”. She also features in other books, including “And I Live On”, as well as on coffee bags with specialty coffee produced by Rwandan women she counselled. 

Most perpetrators of mass atrocities are men. Why? Is it biology or social pressure to fit into gender roles? Together with research professor Inger Skjelsbæk, we explore masculinity, femininity, and their roles in mass violence, including wartime sexual violence. #perpetrator #gender #war #violence

Are world leaders ever truly friends? In this episode of Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?, we dive into the complex relationships between leaders like Trump, Netanyahu, Putin, and even North Korea's regime. Joining us is Yuri van Hoef, a lecturer and expert in political friendships, to unpack how these connections work—or fail to work. Are these relationships real friendships, strategic alliances, or something else entirely? And what impact do they have on world peace?

Teaching is never easy, but it's even more challenging when the subject is mass violence. With current conflicts like those in Ukraine and between Hamas and Israel, this topic is more polarized and sensitive than ever. In this episode, I talk with three experts in teaching: Alette Smeulers, Annalisa Battista, and Andy Aydin Aitchison. Annalisa and Andy share insights from a course they designed to help educators navigate the unique challenges of teaching this subject, along with findings from their research.

With the U.S. election on the horizon, we take a closer look at four key figures in Donald Trump's inner circle: Stephen Miller, Lindsey Graham, Bill Barr, and Mitch McConnell. How have they shaped Trump's policies, and what impact could they have on American democracy? In this episode, we explore these questions with Sanda van Dam, whose PhD research delves deep into Trump's influential advisors. 

Do perpetrators feel remorse? In today's episode, we try to find out by speaking with Mina Rauschenbach. She has interviewed many perpetrators from the Yugoslavia tribunal, from high-ranking officials to those lower in the chain of command. She shares with us how they reflect on their actions. Do they feel remorse, or do they believe they did nothing wrong? We also explore whether the legal system adequately takes into account the extraordinary circumstances in which these crimes were committed.

Being part of a United Nations peacekeeping mission is an intense experience. And that's all the more true if you lead the mission. What is that experience like? How important is good leadership in such missions? Are the missions useful? And how to cope with all the horrendous stuff that you experience when being abroad? Our guest Patrick Cammaert tells us about it. He has led many UN peacekeeping missions throughout the years in many different regions.

We all hope that the wars all around the world end. But what happens when they do? How should perpetrators be punished? How should victims be compensated? And what should be done to avoid a relapse into violence? We ask those questions to Professor Stephan Parmentier. He is an expert in transitional justice from the University of Leuven. With him, we discuss examples such as Nazi Germany, Spain, and South Africa. The examples show, that there are right and wrong ways of handling post-conflict situations.

There seems to be an abundance of them: bad leaders. That can be dangerous, especially when they have lots of power. But what makes a bad leader? And how can we understand them? According to Barbara Kellerman, you have to understand the system around bad leaders, including their followers. She highlights this by using examples such as Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, and Adolf Hitler.

Biljana Plavšić: a respected biologist, high-ranking politician, and a convicted female war criminal. But despite her role in the war in former Yugoslavia, she says she is innocent and many Serbs see her as a hero. How is that possible? We discuss it with Associate Professor Olivera Simic. She met Plavšić multiple times over the course of multiple years. Olivera tells us more about these interactions and about the person behind the crimes.

Perpetrators of mass atrocities can be victims of trauma. What does this tell us about perpetrators specifically and human nature more generally? How does such trauma develop? And should we even be concerned about perpetrator trauma? In the final episode of season two of Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?, we discuss the concept of perpetrator trauma and the associated moral dilemmas together with Bart Nauta. He is currently doing his Ph.D. on the topic.

Genocide is often referred to as the crime of crimes, but what is its legal definition? And how will the recent genocide cases against Israel and Russia at the International Court of Justice impact the conflicts that the countries are involved in? We discuss these and more questions with genocide scholar Professor Caroline Fournet. She outlines the limitations of the genocide definition, possible differences in how the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court use the term genocide, and why the ruling of these courts can be useful, even when it's not visible right away.

Ervin Staub is one of the most important scholars in genocide and altruism studies throughout the past decades. Now that he is 85 years old, he looks back on his most important work and shares how the field has changed throughout his career. Also, he gives advice to aspiring scholars and talks about how his dangerous childhood during the Second World War has inspired his work.

Males commit more mass atrocities than females. How come? Is this mostly down to biological factors or do social influences play a bigger role? And is the binary of good women and evil men justified? We discuss these types of questions with assistant professor Sanne Weber. She argues that we need to understand gender better when trying to prevent mass atrocities. Also, according to both her and Alette, females can be just as violent as males.

Populism is on the rise worldwide and this carries some dangers. But which exactly and can they be extreme enough to incite mass atrocities? We discuss these questions with assistant professor Léonie de Jonge. She outlines the negatives of populism but also advocates for a nuanced view on the topic. She even argues that populism is a force for good in some situations.

Paramilitary groups have played a huge role in the war in former Yugoslavia and are even currently active in the war between Russia and Ukraine. In fact, they will become increasingly more important and present in the future, according to Iva Vukušić, who is an assistant professor at the University of Utrecht specializing in paramilitaries. Together with her, we kick off the second season of Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal? and we discuss what paramilitaries are, provide examples of them, and share why they are so problematic.

In her new book on perpetrators of mass atrocities, professor Alette Smeulers provides a typology of perpetrators. In this episode, she argues that this typology helps with creating a nuanced view of perpetrators and she explains why that is so important. We further discuss her motivation in doing research and shortly look back on the first season of our podcast.

Genocides are amongst the most unimaginable crimes in existence but they might not be a thing of the past. Alex Hinton is an anthropologist and genocide expert from Rutgers University and argues that even in the United States political violence, including genocides, could take place. Together with him, we identify the risk factors present in the United States, discuss the role of Donald Trump in creating a possibly dangerous environment, and outline the possible solutions to guard against genocide.

Jessica Stern is a renowned expert on terrorism from Boston University. During her career, she has interviewed dozens of perpetrators including Radovan Karadžić. She wrote a book about the interviews with him, which received a lot of criticism. Most strikingly, she has received allegations of genocide denial. In this episode, Jessica explains she does not deny the genocide but wishes she had done some things differently in her book. She also talks about the insights she gained from other interviews with terrorists.

The international criminal court has ordered an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin, but for what exactly? And how likely is it that he will actually face charges? In today's episode, we discuss these and related questions with Sergey Vasiliev. He is an expert on international law from the University of Amsterdam. He argues that it is unlikely that Putin will be prosecuted by the ICC soon, but that the court still plays an important role in the war in Ukraine.

Attacking a music festival, killing civilians, and bombing hospitals. They are all horendous happenings in the war between Hamas and Israel. Are all of them clear violations of international law or is the truth more complicated than that? In this episode, we discuss the war with professor Marcel Brus from the University of Groningen. We discuss the polarization of both sides, what's needed to stop the war, and the rules that have to be followed during the conflict.

Not all perpetrators are 'normal'. Some are narcissists or psychopaths. In today's epsiode, we mostly focus on this latter group, specifically in relation to their conscience. Do psychopaths have one? How does it affect their actions? Are people born as a psychopath or are psychopaths products of their environments? Marijana Vujosevic is a university lecturer of moral and political philosophy at the Institute for Philosophy and helps us find the answers.

This is Terribly and Terribly Normal? A podcast series on the perpetrators of mass atrocities by Nicola Quaedvlieg and Alette Smeulers.

The distinction between perpetrators and victims of mass atrocities may seem clear. However, in reality, some people are both victims and perpetrators at the same time. In this episode, we discuss two such examples, namely that of Dominic Ongwen and Ans van Dijk. What is their story? Can they be blamed for their crimes? And how should criminal law account for such cases? We do so together with Professor of Law Mark Drumbl.

Trading weapons, selling hostages and privatizing armies: war is a booming business. But how big is the role of money in mass atrocities? Together with Annika van Baar, who is an assistant professor at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam, we discuss this question. We'll try to find out the profitability of human rights violations and analyze situations ranging from those involving Nazi Germany and the Wagner group to companies like Facebook and Shell.

Adolf Eichmann was one of the main executioners of the genocide during the Second World War. He is the personification of the banality of evil, the famous phrase Hannah Arendt used to describe him. In today's session, we discuss Eichman and others like Duch, the director of the Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Pen in Cambodia during the genocidal reign of the Khmer Rouge together with Dr. Thijs Bouwknegt from the NIOD.

What is the role of obedience in mass atrocities? Do people just blindly follow orders? How important are groups and what about conformity? In this session we discuss what we can learn from social-psychology when studying the perpetrators of mass atrocities. We do so together with Maria Ioannou who is a social-psychologist of the University College in Groningen.

Terrorist groups like the Islamic State and regimes like Nazi Germany often justify their crimes through their ideology. Did they really believe they did the right thing or was ideology used as an excuse to commit evil? In this episode, we discuss the role of ideology in mass atrocities together with Dr. Pieter Nanninga from the University of Groningen. He is an expert on terrorism and studied, among other things, short films that suicide terrorists made prior to their attacks.

Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic and Vladimir Putin: they are the leaders at the top of authoritarian, dictatorial and violent states. Who are they and what is their role in the perpetration of mass atrocities? In this session we discuss these questions with Dr. Maartje Weerdesteijn from VU University who studied the role of dictators in the perpetration of mass atrocities and the manner in which the international community can potentially mitigate these crimes. The episode starts with a discussion highlighting that democratically chosen leaders are not necessarily less dangerous than dictatorial ones.

Who are the perpetrators of mass atrocities? Are they pure evil sadists who are mentally disturbed or rather ordinary people who are terribly and terrifyingly normal as Hannah Arendt suggested when seeing the trial of Adolf Eichmann? In this episode Alette Smeulers will discuss her research and findings on perpetrators of mass atrocities and will focus on all the different kind of people who get involved in genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture and terrorism.