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A discussion with Betty Ray on the three phases of a rite of passage & the tools they offer us for composting our grief. Music by Terry Hughes Links: Betty Ray Betty’s talk: We Must Initiate the Young People Arnold Van Gennep Lisa Miller of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute Menarche ritual Full transcript: Ray: And then there’s the whole midlife crisis and a porche and a girlfriend and whatever and all that, but we don’t really talk about what’s going on psychologically or spiritually. The transitions in our lives can bring up difficult feelings. It’s easy to see the lay of the land when we’re walking a straight path, but when the sidewalk ends, all kinds of confusion can come up. We may lose track of where we’re going and even start to question our values. How can ceremony help us through the transformations in our lives? Join me for a conversation with Betty Ray. This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today we’re going to slow it down and really look at rites of passage. Where did that term come from? What’s the anatomy of a rite of passage? And what can these ceremonies be used for? Our returning guest Betty Ray helps parents design customized ceremonies to help their youth go through a coming of age process, something that is deeply needed in American culture today. But she understands that all big transitions are worthy of the same process, whether it’s coming of age, approaching midlife, or even experiencing a significant loss. Betty and I had a conversation recently about using the rites of passage structure to design a healing ceremony. This could be any kind of healing ceremony, but I asked her how the rites of passage structure could be useful to design a ceremony for someone who had lost a child. Ray: I think the language rites of passage to me is more structural because rites of passage articulates a structure. There’s a three-part structure to rites of passage which is immutable and across all these different cultures. And that is really a benefit because that gives us a way in which we can design meaningful personalized rites of passage or healing rituals or however you want to describe it, there’s lots of ways. But I think the language around rites of passage for me has been to articulate this tripartate model which is so powerful. The first one, the first phase of totes of passage is called separation and this is from the work up in Arnold van Gennep and this was from 1909. So this guy a long time ago studied all these different cultures and found across cultures and across time and space that people were using the same three phases. And in fact, Joseph Campbell was really inspired by Van Gennep’s work and used his rites of passage work for the hero’s journey work which is amazing. Like I didn’t know that. Did you know that? My God, I was so excited about that, I was like “Oh, you’re kidding me!” That's so brilliant because it makes sense that rites of passage would make a good story. So the three steps are separation, where the initiate leaves the comforts of home. And whether that’s a young person going off to figure out who they are and discover their identity or a middle-age person who has to leave the sort of the structure that their life has become. So then the second phase is called liminality or I’ve also heard it referred to as metamorphosis and that’s the phase where once they’ve left there kind of betwixt and between as Victor Turner said. It’s this time when you don’t know what’s going to happen to you and that’s when this beautiful phase of ego death comes in. You don’t know. You die. Who you are, who you were, is no longer who you are or who you want to be. And then there’s design elements I can make liminality more or less... that’s a design challenge for those of us who want to do these. And then the reincorporation phase where the young person for the young middle/elder whoever comes back to wherever they were, to the original, you know, container and then takes what they’ve learned and bring it back to... so that they may be in their community once again. So there’s kind of a, you go off into the netherland, you go off to the wyrd world, the forest, you know, in our mythologies... all kinds of heroes journeys there. Yeah, so those three phases I feel like are really valuable as design elements. So that’s why I was talking about that. And we can talk about how to put this into someone who’s lost a child. How do we manage that, those feelings and the grief and the identity and all of the elements, the psychological elements, that go into holding that and how does one release that and reinvent themselves to be able to move forward and to not just be completely paralyzed by that loss? I think what I love about rites of passage, however you talk about them, is that they do offer tools for composting our grief, or our fear, or whatever - getting it out and turning it into something else. The transformative nature is really powerful. Thomas: What's the benefit in designing our own ceremonies? Ray: I think that our 21st century culture has become so individualized that certain kinds of rites of passage, the generic thing, just don't resonate. And so the benefit of a personalized sort of self designed DIY rite of passage or ceremony, transition ceremony, is that it can be something that is deeply meaningful to you. And I don't think these work if they're not deeply meaningful to you. So I would argue that there is no reason to do this if it isn't personalized. It's really important that it be meaningful, and that it come from a place that has such heart and meaning that it can that it does the sort of psychological lifting. When it is individualized, it's a creative process. It's really fun. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that nurtures me. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that I'm trying to heal. It's not fun - that's not fun. But it's healing. It's healthy to look at what is the thing that I want to let go of and how do I design something so that I can take back my power over this thing that has really hurt me or has humiliated me or that I want to leave behind. And that can be anything from a relationship to a mindset. You know? It's a lot different than talking about in therapy and I love therapy, I go to therapy. It's valuable. But again, getting into this psychic space of ego death, right? You’re kind of more open and vulnerable and you kind of like you, you're working with the programming language of the soul. And it's a lot deeper than just the cognitive stuff. We don't... cognitive is important. But this when you're working at the soul level, it's more potent. I love that way of describing it: that what we’re doing in ritual is working with the programming language of the soul. Does that make sense? We’re getting into an area where words don’t work, so it’s a little bit difficult for me to use words to describe it, but think of the rituals you’ve participated in in your life and remember what they felt like in your body. There’s a reason we do devotional ritualized practices in religious settings. Taking the bread, stepping into the Mikvah, casting a circle with the athame. These are physical things we do to connect, ritualistic soul-level actions we take. They are separate from our thoughts. When we hear the phrase “rites of passage” we may think of life stages such as coming of age, getting married, or having children. But life transitions are not always predictable or planned. A sudden illness or loss can knock us off our game and create a need to withdraw and heal. That’s where rites of passage or ritual can become invaluable. Ritual can provide a space of deep healing where our pain can be witnessed and honored. Ray: When I was about 25, I was involved in a bike accident. And I was not wearing a helmet and I was unconscious for a day or two. And I woke up in the hospital and I was all like, double vision, concussion - a real mess. And I got out of the hospital and I was like in bed, you know, I couldn't work, I was out. And I was just really just discombobulated. And I had this major double vision, and I was so like, I couldn't even, you know, literally couldn't see straight. And my mom called me, you know, and she said, "I would like to offer you a rite of passage at my house." And I was like, I don't know what that is but it has to be better than this wherever I am right now, this sucks. And I'm in bed and I would love to... sure whatever that is, do it up! And so she said, "Okay, I want you to invite somewhere between 6 and 10 women that are older that you look up to and that your respect," and I was like okay. And so I know she knows some cool people and I know a few cool people and I put together this list and they all came to her house at the winter solstice. And one of her friends had made me a paper machine a mask to wear for the ceremony. And it was like this beautiful thing that had a butterfly at the mouth and like flower up at the head and like these beautiful beads... and it was really... it was like, okay, so I put that on, we came to her house and there was a fire in the fireplace and all these women were sitting in a circle and I wore the mask. And they proceeded to each tell me a story, or read a poem, or kind of reflect me, or reflect the world so that I could kind of titrate it and understand it, some things about the world things that were, you know, through poetry and beautiful writings and pieces of art. And I just sat there and just absorbed this giant mirror of all these older women that were so wise and so loving and so interested in helping me heal. And I could just feel that energy and I'm wearing this mask. And then at the end of it, I had to, I had to write, based on everything I had heard, I had to write a series of commitments to myself, and like things I wanted to keep, things I wanted to nurture, things I wanted to deepen and explore. And then I had to write a series of things that I was ready to release. And she had a fire in the fireplace and at the time, I took the things I wanted to release and I put them in the fire. And we said a prayer. And then it was over and it was probably about 20 minutes. It was a short thing, maybe more - I don't remember maybe it must have been more - but anyway, it was really powerful to me. It was a really, to have all these older women hold me in that way taught me the power... and to and to experience the intentionality of that moment, the gravitas, the beauty, you know, she... the home was beautiful, it smelled nice, it was people you know, it was just a sensory experience of being in this kind of like other world. And the kind of the grace that I felt afterwards was just like, wow, I knew this was powerful! And I was really interested in doing more of it. I was in my mid 20s. And I remember kind of putting it out there and sort of doing a little bit of research after it was over, like kind of getting out of my depression hole and going down to the bookstore and researching a little bit. And I got this clear picture that this is too woo woo for the world. I can't do this now. It's not ready. It's too weird. And so I took a hard turn and I went into writing about popular culture, and, you know, teaching myself technology and HTML and like, I kind of went there. But it always stuck with me, it was always part of my soul. You know, it was like I was awakened. Wow, that's a cool thing! You can do this stuff and it really helps your soul! It helps you get out of, you know, self pity and suicidal ideation and you know, kind of loneliness and all this crap that I... and my physical thing didn't change. I still have the crazy double vision. But I was just, it was something that changed in my being. So, you know, but over the years, I sort of dabbled in it, you know, I kind of come back to it and I found it on the dance floor. And I really found like, dancing really helped me with the soul work and, you know, I would take an astrology thing here and they're like, kind of like closet woo woo, you know. And then I found this program at, you know, at Columbia, right, like, fancy-pants ivy league school has this weird little thing called the Spirituality Mind Body Institute. And it's actually not woo woo. It's a bunch of researchers who have found evidence for the benefits of spiritual exploration and spiritual experience. And I was like, okay, it's coming out. Now it's time. You're going in! So I took that program, I quit my job and I am now working on the rites of passage stuff. Lisa Miller, the woman who founded the SMBI, the Spirituality Mind Body Institute, has done all kinds of really interesting research on the power of intergenerational spirituality. So she's she says that when a young person has a container, a community, you know, who are holding them in a place where they can explore "lowercase s" spiritual practices they're so much healthier, they have a much, much higher rate of... a much lower rate of depression, anxiety, self harm suicide, and it's like 60-ish percent; it's ridiculously powerful. Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal and it's sort of free. So it's kind of, you know, it's not like you have to like build a new school or have a mountain that you know... going off to the mountaintop or anything, you can just change your practices. So it's important for families and communities to know about that. One of my favorite things about ritual is that it can transcend space and time. What I mean by that is if there is something that happened in our past - maybe a hard time we went through all alone or a significant personal accomplishment that got overlooked by our friends and family - we can actually do ceremony for it now and bring some healing to both the past and present versions of ourselves. That may sound strange if you are new to the concept of ceremony. But if you do this work regularly, you know what I’m talking about. My first experience with this was when I read a book called “Red Flower: Rethinking Menstruation” by Dena Taylor. It inspired me to create the menarche ceremony that I never had. Because ritual transcends space and time, it didn’t matter that the ceremony took place 15 years after my first period. My inner 12-year-old was fully present and felt fully welcomed into womanhood that day. I asked Betty to reflect on her past and think of any transition she wished she had had a rite of passage for. In answering my question, she spoke about a very personal subject. She spoke about healing from an abortion. I’m pausing to give you a heads up now in case this subject is close to home for you or in case you are listening with children. Thomas: Are there any experiences in your past that you wish you could have had it rite of passage for? Ray: There are several. I had an abortion and that was the biggest source of shame ever. And I had no way of... I mean, I had… it was very difficult to like make peace with that or understand, you know... nobody talked about it. So, having some sort of a, you know, there's an Amanda Palmer song about an abortion… it’s a ceremony and it's beautiful and I sobbed the first time I heard it. I think having that would have been a good idea. It would have been a way to heal that in a way that was good for me. Although what I did do is I ended up moving out to California from Minnesota to honor that. It was like, I'm not ready to be a mom here. I'm gonna to go do whatever it takes for me to know that I can be a parent. And that means going out to California and sort of following an instinct that there's work out there for me that will not only be meaningful and enrich me but it will help others. Like I wanted to be able to have to have an authentic sense of myself in the world and I just had no way of doing that where I was. So coming out here was sort of that for me, but it wasn't the same and it was certainly not witnessed. No one knew about it. You know, that was my own sort of thing. Yeah. Thomas: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I've heard that in the blood mysteries for women, that that's one of the blood mysteris, you know, that that's got that same depth as, or is considered in some circles by some healers to be, in the same depth of you know, menarche, menstruation, menopause, birth, and abortion, miscarriage even, you know, just that it's that it's that really deep, really, really deep place. Ray: It is. Thomas: Yeah. Ray: Well, yeah very confrontative because it forces you to look at your life in a way of like you're at this giant fork, right? And like, what are the resources over here? What is my capacity? What does that what does that life look like? And what is the life look like on the other direction? And they’re… you can't go through it unchanged because it causes such reflection and it causes such anguish and it's so... it's very complicated. So it definitely, you know, I think it just transforms you and so for me moving out here was like, “Thank you, Little Spirit.” You know, it was all in the attempt to, well, to be able to welcome that little spirit back someday. And I don't know that I did. I don't know if my daughter is the same little spirit, but certainly there is a little spirit now too. Thomas: Wow, thank you. I’m so very grateful to Betty for giving us the low down on the anatomy of a rite of passage and for sharing with us so vulnerably. I encourage you to think back and notice if there’s anything in your past it might have been helpful to have a rite of passage for. It’s not too late! Together with a close group of friends and family, people who can take your healing seriously and honor your story, you can go back and have the transition witnessed. Betty Ray is a speaker, author, and consultant who uses design thinking to co-create meaningful rites of passage to help her clients navigate transitions. Learn more about her work at bettyray.net. If you’re a parent or work with youth, be sure to catch her talk “We Must Initiate the Young People” on YouTube. Check our show notes for links to that plus more information about Arnold Van Gennep and also Lisa Miller of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute. Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please take a minute to review it on Apple Podcasts. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

Betty Ray walked to the top of Bernal Hill at the turn of the millennium. She brought three things with her: a candle, her checkbook, and a ring. Music by Terry Hughes Inspired to create something for yourself? Visit https://ever-changing.net/ Transcript Ray: Did that make sense? Should I say it again? Okay, I think that when a ritual is designed well, it is designed to make space for the soul to flourish and to show up. Betty Ray uses design thinking to help individuals and communities create meaningful rites of passage to navigate transitions. She’s a recent graduate of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute at Teachers College, part of Columbia University. She’s currently developing a program called Human Nature Academy to work with adolescent rites of passage. Join me for a conversation with Betty Ray. This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life Transitions. We are going to tackle two ideas today. The first is to explore the benefits of ritual - what it does and how it can be useful to us. We will reflect on some of the ways our Ancestors used ceremony and look at the benefits ritual can bring us today. The second thing we will touch on is a certain kind of ceremony you may not have heard about before. As you know, this season on Shame Piñata we are focusing on weddings and commitment ceremonies. There have been an increasing number of people over the past decade who have decided to commit to themselves instead of, in the absence of, or alongside the presence of a partner. It's called self-commitment or self marriage and it’s gaining popularity. So let's dive in. In our first episode, we talked about the power of ritual to create a container for the strong emotions that come with transition. Getting married, losing a loved one, the birth of a child, the end of a relationship... these are all times when our way forward changes, the future in front of us is totally new, where the sidewalk ends, as poet Shel Silverstein said. Who we were won't work anymore, we must become someone new: we must become the husband, the mother, the single person... The ceremonies that we turn to at these times help mark the beginning of these transitions, but they can be limited. Weddings, for example, can focus so heavily on joy that they block out any feelings of grief or loss which are a normal and healthy part of any transition. And funerals can feel stilted and solemn, laying expectations that grief is only appropriately expressed in tears, when in fact healthy grief shows up in a wide variety of ways. We can work with the traditional rituals as we have inherited them, making them deeper, richer, and more personalized for our own needs. We are 100% capable of this, because ritual is an inherent part of being human. Here's Betty Ray. Ray: So I feel like ritual is one of those things that has been in human experience since we were... since we were putting pigment on cave walls. I mean, ritual has been part of the way that humans have oriented ourselves. I mean, I think the earliest rituals were really a response to a chaotic world, and to uncertainty and unpredictability. And rituals gave people a sense of regularity and structure and they served to bind the community together, that we would all come together at the harvest, or we would come together to sow the seeds in the crops or the hunt or... you know, as young people came of age. There was a way for communities to reaffirm their strengths and their bonds and it was a way to sort of stay connected to the larger world in a way that felt safe. Because, you know, obviously when you don't know why the sun is you know, when the moon goes in front of the sun and, like, it's going dark, and you don't know why that's happening, that's pretty scary! So, you know, having stories and narratives and mythologies and rituals to kind of keep communities bonded together was a way to keep them safe and and obviously propagate. Rituals have been going on forever. So we have, you know, there's been a lot of study about rituals and research about the role of them and you know... And that one thing that I think is so interesting is that we know from all the research that that rituals have been, like, literally from every country, in every culture, and every society since the beginning. Like we just do it, it's human, it's in our DNA. I don't know if it's in our DNA, that's not a scientific quote, but I mean, they are really powerful and people do them and, and why? Why is that? Why do people do that? I mean, that's, you know, that's exactly your question. But I think it's, I do think it's about helping us feel safe and connected with one another. Rituals offer people a structure amid chaos. And whether that’s back in the day when we didn’t know if a mountain lion was going to come over the hill, or today when all of our systems are falling apart, you know, that when we have a sense of familiar.... The mark of a ritual is that it is rigid, it’s familiar. You do the thing as it’s always been done and you do it with an intention to devote yourself to that practice so that devotional angle... that devotional element of, like, I am surrendering myself to do this thing that is bigger than me - is healthy for people, to have a sense of right relationship with things that are larger than us. I think that when we have a ritual that is designed to help us grieve something, or help us celebrate life, or help us with more life transitions - and this gets us a little bit into rights of passage - but those rituals are really... there’s an element of them in which ego death is facilitated. We are no longer in control. It is not our thing we’re pushing through, it is a larger thing. That, you know, when you’re going to a ritual space, you are suddenly in a place that is less driven by, you know, sort of cognitive, intellectualized approach and it becomes more of a soul practice. And I am really interested in the soul practice because I think the soul the healthy element of rituals to my mind as a nurtures the soul. And we are desperate in our 21st-century hyper-mediated, hyper technology-focused, environmental crisis place, we need this more than anything in my view. Thomas: You gave me chills. Ray: Good! I really think... I mean it’s so important, it is so important, because the soul is smart. You know, the soul can really help us, the soul has a way for us to.... the soul knows a lot and it’s very wise. But Parker Palmer said once that was that the soul is like a wild animal. It isn’t something that you can be like, “Hey, soul, come on and party with us!” or like you know, “Come on, I’m going to make you come out!” It’s a wild animal and it’s fragile... Cultivating a place for the soul is an art and it needs certain kinds of tending. It needs to be welcomed and know it’s going to be okay and be able to express its wildness which means it’s not always going to be pretty. We live our day-to-day with so little awareness of the soul. We are so much about like get in the car and go to work, and I’ve got to figure out all the things I have to go to my day and I’ve got to write this and I’m going to talk to these people and we’re just in our heads and in our doing mode. And rituals provide a space for us to be in a more creative, deeper, messier-in-a-sense soul world where the soul is able to come out and be curious be aware. And we can listen to our souls with more clarity we can hear it more clearly because the ritual provides a buffer or a boundary between the sort of the crazy-of-every-day and increasing crazy-of-every-day. Rituals give us a quiet, centering practice that we can rely on to be nurturing to that soul part of ourselves. Self-commitment can be defined in many ways. At its heart, it means committing to ourselves first, being our own chosen one. It's mainly a women's thing right now, but I'm hoping that will change. Women commit to themselves in many situations: after a breakup, if they are tired of putting their energy into looking for someone, when they are about to get married. Ceremonies can be as simple as putting on a ring at a self-marriage workshop or as elaborate as planning a full wedding. Betty took the opportunity to design a self-commitment ceremony for herself about 20 years ago. As this episode will be airing on Valentine's Day, we thought this was a wonderful time to share her story. Ray: Oh my gosh. Well, I wasn't planning on having a self commitment ceremony actually. It was the end of the millennia. It was December 1999. And I had been involved with this conversation with this guy who I had had this like massive crush on for a long time. And I was really, like, we were supposed to go down to Mexico to a Mayan pyramid. We were gonna hang out down there and I was gonna conceive a baby. This is really embarrassing. And that was my grand plan. And anyway, he like at the last minute was like, "No, I don't want to do that,” but he didn't really tell me and I was embarrassed and I was like, and mostly I was just like, heartbroken and embarrassed and I felt really stupid. And so on New Year's Eve 1999, I had bought this ring that had the drama faces on it, you know, tragedy and the comedy. And I had this idea to go up to the top of Bernal Hill with my ring... and I brought my checkbook and a candle. And I, I kind of had an idea that I was just gonna... so I got up there I wasn't sure what I was going to do with all this stuff, but I knew I wanted the ring because I was... and that was part of the design. So I got up to the top of Bernal Hill and I wrote myself a check to myself and I wrote a check to him. And I lit the candle and I burned the check to him, and "I'm not going to spend any more time on you, dude." And the check to myself, I fold it and I put it like near my heart... I guess I was wearing... I put it in my bra, frankly. And then I took the ring and I made a statement. I made a statement as San Francisco was my witness as I was up on the top of Bernal Hill and it's kind of this cloudy, foggy you know gross San Francisco winter day. Kind of at the at the winding down of this millennia, you know, and so I had this sort of weight, this gravitas of the sense of this millennia is ending and I'm committing to myself for the new millennia to not get into drama with men anymore. And this was not the first time, this is clearly a little bit of a pattern. I don't know if that's clear, but it was totally a little bit of a pattern. So I took the ring and I put it on my left finger. And I said that I will now... I now am committed to myself and I'm marrying my own drama so that I don't need to marry it externally. I don't need to bring my drama... I don't need to create it externally and I certainly don't want to be engaged in a relationship with it anymore. I don't want to do that. That's done, adios. And so I, I finished and I blew out the candle and I went back home and I went out and I had an incredible New Year's Eve. And I was just like, I was in such gratitude like, let that guy go! And I just, you know, I could feel dancing... I was dancing and I just, you know, I danced him out... and you know, it was a way for me to reclaim my power. It was a way for me to reclaim my sense of agency about myself and to not be so, you know, not to outsource my sense of self and my sense of purpose and strength. And so it was a really, really important thing to do. And I'm so glad I did it! And I wore that ring forever, just about until I got married. Now I have a different one. Yeah, but anyway, so that was yeah, that was my self commitment. So it wasn't really a conscious decision. It was more of a, like, I gotta heal, I feel stupid, and I'm humiliated, and I'm embarrassed and I need to take care of myself because I did something really dumb. Thomas: I love that. Ray: Yeah. It was fun. It was powerful. Thomas: Wow. Wow, I love you're like, I took my checkbook. Like oooh, what's gonna happen with the checkbook? This is really interesting. Ray: Well, it was it was, you know, it was a symbol of you know, back in the day, right, people had checkbooks we probably don't have that anymore. Do you have a checkbook? I don't even have a checkbook. Anyway. Well, you know we had... that it was a way for me to... it was a metaphor for my money, which is power. Like it's my... it was a metaphor for my, my life force, which I was... I just... I had really stupidly given up and just embarrassingly so because, I mean, I'm sure he was like, "Who is this crazy stalker woman that wants to go to a Mayan pyramid with me and have my baby?" I don't know. It's kind of funny, but I don't know if it's like the long term, like realistic most realistic, you know sane thing to do. Thomas: What exposure had you had to the idea of self commitment before your own ceremony? Ray: I don't think I had any exposure to it. I would... Again, I had come to ritual through my mom and my mother and her use of ritual and I knew that having rituals could catalyze change. And I had done several other rituals over the course, since my rite-of-passage-one that were sort of self-related, but they weren't self commitment - that was different. So I don't know. I mean, maybe it's... I think, I honestly think these ideas float around the ether, and that we pull them down when we need them. Thomas: What are the benefits that you feel the ceremony brought to you short term and long term? Ray: Well, the short term ones were that I just had the best New Year's Eve ever, you know. The long term benefits were that I had a catalyst to... an experience that helped me catalyze a change in my attitude towards myself and my relationships. That it was an intentional taking back of my power and releasing him so that I could be more, you know, healthy and you know, all the stuff that you want to be when you're not obsessed with someone. You know, I think the long term effects were very real and that I feel like when, you know, I would get kind of like, "Oh, I wonder what it's doing," or, you know, I would just take it back and be like, "Dude, you just had this thing. You wrote that check. You can't... you know, that thing's burned! He doesn't have that check anymore, you've got the check, and that's not going to him!” So there was a way in which the just the gestures and the actions... the ring, I would look down at it and I would see it, you know, and I would I would maybe, you know, another several years later, you know, there was kind of a beginning of another relationship and I could feel the drama alert. "Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no! Look at that ring, look at what you got on! No, no, no, run away!" Like it is not... So I think that part of it was the the act but also the gestures, the ring, the checkbook, that that really concretized it for me so that, it helped... it was a tool that I would rely on as I kind of navigated through my, you know, some of these more treacherous waters which weren't as treacherous by that point. So the waters became less treacherous too, because I was more like... my identity was less about, "Oh, you need this kind of man or, that kind of person, you need to be in a relationship." I was single, I was happily so. It was really... it helped support that single exploration for me. Very, very, very helpful. Thomas: How does being married or committed to yourself mix with being married or committed to somebody else? Ray: That's a great question. Being married and committed to myself makes me a way better committed partner in reality because being committed to myself, in the way in which I'm committed to myself, means I'm more authentically myself and I'm not... I don't hand over core parts of myself for my need for approval, or my need for someone to tell me what to do, or my need to be in control, whatever those needs are, like I'm a much more whole partner as a result. So I can bring elements of myself my sucky or more annoying sides as well as my, you know, loving and compassionate sides in with more authenticity and more integrity. So it actually made me a much better partner. Yeah, I see no conflict there at all. It makes you a better person. When you're committed to yourself, you're much better. You have much more reserves to give, you can give a lot more, you have much more resources to give. And that makes you a better partner. I actually had a version 2.0 of that ceremony. When I met him, the man, I met him for coffee a couple years ago. And after he... and he's a writer, and he's got you know, he's just a really interesting person and very, you know, all the things that I loved about him I got to see, you know, and it was really fun and I finally had my act together. And after he left, I made a conscious decision to go sit in the chair that he was sitting in and to like, take back the energy that I had given him long ago. So I did a deeper dive. So I think we can so I guess what I'm saying is that we can always revisit our older commitments ceremonies and our older earlier ceremonies. We can we can ceremony anything. I mean, it's, you don't want to you don't want to one doesn't want to, but we can if we need to. Betty's story speaks to the power of ritual to help us gather our full selves back up from the chaos of chasing other people, which sometimes - can happens even when we aren't meaning to do that! There are so many ways we can get lost in the idea of a partner completing us. It’s kind of the water we swim in if you think about it. And when we find someone, it’s easy to inadvertently toss our authentic dreams and goals out of the boat to make room for the daily events that come with being in a relationship. This can be especially true for women given the historical importance of marriage for the women in our lineages. Committing to ourself can be a way to ground back into who we are at our core - our core values, core beliefs, core essence. Those are gems to be nurtured and honored. Betty Ray is a 2020 Mira Fellow where she is developing a program called Human Nature Academy. Before this, she spent the better part of 10 years working in senior leadership roles at the George Lucas Educational Foundation. Learn more about her work at bettyray.net. Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please share it with a friend and leave a review on Apple podcasts. That is the very best way you can support this new baby show. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Ray: Well so Shirley, tell me about your career as a Customs inspector.Shirley: Yes, many years ago in a previous lifetime, I worked as a Customs Officer in Australia. And, I don't know if you know but that means … basically taking control or monitoring our borders and checking what comes in and out of the country.Ray: Well that sounds pretty interesting.Shirley: Yeah, it had its moments.Ray: Like for exampleShirley: Well, Australia has very strict quarantine regulations so we'd often get people trying to smuggle in prohibited food or seeds or plants and I remember one time there was a man who had an entire sapling, a small tree strapped to his body. He had the roots kind of in his shoe and it was strapped to his leg all the way up his body and along his arm and of course his clothes on top so that we couldn't see them.Ray: Well that's a, are now you sure he was a person and not an “ent”?Shirley: I don't know. He was doing a good disguise if he was in fact a walking “ent”.Ray: That's true, so what'd you do to this poor guy?Shirley: We didn't do so much to the poor guy, I think he probablyRay: so what did you do to his poor tree then I guess.Shirley: Well his tree was confiscated and would be destroyed. Probably he was fined and went to court and would have to pay a fine.Ray: What other things do people smuggle?Shirley: All sorts of strange things. Sometimes they smuggle things that they don't even realize are prohibited. So for example, canned foods like pate or canned meats are also completely prohibitedRay: Oh boyShirley: Yeah, I mean a lot of those things they can hold, for example, foot and mouth disease, I think, is resistant to very high temperatures and it'll last for about seven or eight years. So those things are also prohibited. Birds, which is pretty sad because when people bring in something like birds or small animals the death rate for the animals is extremely high soRay: Goodness, yes.Shirley: Usually only about ten percent (10%) survive and if they get caught, then they can't have them anyway.Ray: Can't imagine how, if you were trying to smuggle a bird I have visions of somebody anesthetizing[麻醉，麻痹] the poor thing and, stuffing it into their backpack or something of that sort andShirley: YeahRay: that can't be goodShirley: there's lots of imaginative ways to do that but all in all, none of them are very good for the birds.Ray: Any reptiles?Shirley: Yeah well, people do smuggle them in, although actually in the case of Australia I think we have a bigger problem with them going out because Australia has, I think, the highest number of venomous reptiles in the world and also different types of reptiles so people taking them out illegally is a big problem. I personally never saw any, fortunately. I actually quite like snakes but I have a healthy respect for them so I don't really want to be, you know, engaging with them on a one-to-one personal level.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Ray: Well so Shirley, tell me about your career as a Customs inspector.Shirley: Yes, many years ago in a previous lifetime, I worked as a Customs Officer in Australia. And, I don't know if you know but that means … basically taking control or monitoring our borders and checking what comes in and out of the country.Ray: Well that sounds pretty interesting.Shirley: Yeah, it had its moments.Ray: Like for exampleShirley: Well, Australia has very strict quarantine regulations so we'd often get people trying to smuggle in prohibited food or seeds or plants and I remember one time there was a man who had an entire sapling, a small tree strapped to his body. He had the roots kind of in his shoe and it was strapped to his leg all the way up his body and along his arm and of course his clothes on top so that we couldn't see them.Ray: Well that's a, are now you sure he was a person and not an “ent”?Shirley: I don't know. He was doing a good disguise if he was in fact a walking “ent”.Ray: That's true, so what'd you do to this poor guy?Shirley: We didn't do so much to the poor guy, I think he probablyRay: so what did you do to his poor tree then I guess.Shirley: Well his tree was confiscated and would be destroyed. Probably he was fined and went to court and would have to pay a fine.Ray: What other things do people smuggle?Shirley: All sorts of strange things. Sometimes they smuggle things that they don't even realize are prohibited. So for example, canned foods like pate or canned meats are also completely prohibitedRay: Oh boyShirley: Yeah, I mean a lot of those things they can hold, for example, foot and mouth disease, I think, is resistant to very high temperatures and it'll last for about seven or eight years. So those things are also prohibited. Birds, which is pretty sad because when people bring in something like birds or small animals the death rate for the animals is extremely high soRay: Goodness, yes.Shirley: Usually only about ten percent (10%) survive and if they get caught, then they can't have them anyway.Ray: Can't imagine how, if you were trying to smuggle a bird I have visions of somebody anesthetizing[麻醉，麻痹] the poor thing and, stuffing it into their backpack or something of that sort andShirley: YeahRay: that can't be goodShirley: there's lots of imaginative ways to do that but all in all, none of them are very good for the birds.Ray: Any reptiles?Shirley: Yeah well, people do smuggle them in, although actually in the case of Australia I think we have a bigger problem with them going out because Australia has, I think, the highest number of venomous reptiles in the world and also different types of reptiles so people taking them out illegally is a big problem. I personally never saw any, fortunately. I actually quite like snakes but I have a healthy respect for them so I don't really want to be, you know, engaging with them on a one-to-one personal level.

Episode Transcript Erin: Today I’m talking with Ray Wohlfarth, commercial-heating expert and industry author. Ray’s Lessons Learned book series offers a common-sense approach to everything from servicing and installing commercial boilers to brewing with steam. You can find them in our store at HeatingHelp.com. And you can learn more about Ray’s seminars at boilerlessons.com. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today, Ray. Ray: Hi Erin. I’m so excited. This is great. Erin: We’re thrilled to have you. I’d love to hear more about how you got your start in the heating industry. Ray: Well, I was planning on going to school to be a lawyer in high school. And right after high school, my dad was in a really bad auto wreck and could not work any more. So I had to go to work to earn money. My relative was in a trade union (the steamfitters) and said that this is a great opportunity because people are always going to need heat. So I said ok. I got involved and I loved it. I just love technical things. So I got to learn all about systems and specialized in the boiler end of it. Erin: That’s great. Do you have any advice for new technicians who are just starting out? Ray: What I would suggest is to learn how systems operate. Anybody can look at components, but there’s no better feeling than to go onto a job when there’s been three or four people there and you understand systems and are able to get the heat or air conditioning going. And it’s rare to find someone in the industry that really does know how the entire system works. Erin: That’s an excellent point. And speaking of lessons, I’ve heard you say that when you’re replacing a commercial boiler, you should always assume that the existing boiler is installed incorrectly. Can you explain what you mean by that? Ray: Well, I got kind of burned on a couple of different jobs. What I found out is that there’s an unwritten rule in our industry that if you replace the boiler, you own the entire system. So what I’ve found is that we were replacing some boilers and the rest of the system was not working at all. Well, after we replaced the boiler, we were getting all of these calls about things that had nothing to do with my boilers, but the people didn’t know who to call. And it was that whole adage that you hear: “The thing worked fine before you put that new boiler of yours in there!” So what I understood is that most of the systems, not through fault of the installers, but maybe through maintenance over the years when people have changed things around and then they don’t work the way they were supposed to work or the way they were designed. I’ve gotten burned so many times that I am really hesitant when I go onto a boiler replacement project now. Erin: That makes sense. Do you have any other tips for commercial-boiler replacement jobs? Ray: What I like to do is talk to the building owner. A lot of times we get a call and we’re dealing with a mechanical engineer, but I also like to talk with the person who is maintaining the boiler, whether it’s a custodian or a maintenance person. I like to ask them a lot of questions and again, where I assume there are issues with the boiler, I’ll ask them what areas are the most problematic for them. And, sure enough, they’re going to say, “Oh, we can never get heat in this office” or “This office is always roasting hot and we have to keep the windows open.” So if you’re talking with those people that deal with this on a regular basis, they’re going to kind of give you some heads up and places to look where you can find the problems and hopefully resolve them with your new boiler system. Erin: Now in your book, Brewing with Steam, you mention that a commercial steam boiler is designed to last 20-30 years, but you’ve seen boilers destroyed in less than a year, which is astonishing. What can kill a boiler like that? Ray: Well, if it’s a steam boiler, most of it is water treatment. The first thing, the water is really not as good as it used to be. On that particular job I was talking about in my book, the boiler was there just over one heating season and the tubes started to leak. The Director of Maintenance was a very good friend of mine and he was put into a bind because the President of the University and the CFO were upset because they just bought this boiler and it was leaking already. They blamed him and they blamed me. We got one of the boiler tubes replaced and we sent it out to be evaluated. We found out it was chlorine that had done it. And do you remember a couple of years ago in West Virginia when they had that chemical spill into their domestic water and everybody was sick? There were counties that had to be evacuated because of this chemical that got in there. And what they did was add large doses of chlorine into the water to kill whatever was leftover and the residue. And this chlorine just killed this boiler. I paid out of my own pocket to have this test done. It vindicated us and the owner, but what we see is that steam boilers are just not being maintained and there are water-treatment issues. Another time an installer friend of mine called me for help. There was a boiler that they had put in just a year ago and within a year the low-water cutoff had filled with mud and the boiler dry fired. And they destroyed a boiler within a year because they didn’t do maintenance. So between the maintenance and the water treatment, I think that’s what really puts the dagger into the life of a steam boiler. Erin: Those are really good points, Ray. Never a dull moment in this industry, right? Ray: Haha! No, I love it. Erin: One of the many reasons why I love reading your monthly newsletter is because you share some great on-the-job stories, like you just did right now. And to our listeners, if you’re interested in receiving Ray’s newsletter, you can sign up at boilerlessons.com. One of the stories you told last month, Ray, was about the haunted thermostat. I loved it. Can you share that one with our listeners? Ray: Sure. We put steam boilers into an old, old school that became a rehabilitation hospital. And, right after the boilers were in there, I got a call from the customer saying the boilers were going off at night, around 11 o’clock every night and then at 6 o’clock in the morning they were coming back on. And we went crazy. We went through that whole building trying to figure out what it was. We thought, well perhaps they were on a light with an outdoor timer. And the maintenance person, every time we’d come he’d say, “Oh, this place is haunted. This place is haunted!” And when we couldn’t figure out what was going on, he’d say, “Oh it’s that ghost again.” And we’d say, “There’s no such thing as a ghost.” And he’d say, “Oh yes, Ray. There’s a ghost.” So I put a data logger on there that monitors temperatures every 15 minutes. And, sure enough, after a week at 11 o’clock the temperatures would just start to come down and at 6 o’clock it would come up. And we thought, “What the heck is going on?” Well, it was a locking thermostat cover, so we changed it to a new one and the problems went away. As it turned out, one of the people in the hospital for rehab was a heating and air-conditioning technician and he had a key for the thermostat. And he liked to sleep with the temperature cool at night so he’d turned it down to 60 degrees at night and, before anybody woke up, he’d turn it back up to 72. And we could not figure it out until we changed that locking box cover. Erin: Now when you changed the cover, did he say, “Oh, that was me. Can I have a new key?” Ray: Well, on his way out the door. He confessed and said, “That was me that was turning it down the whole time. When I’m in rehab I can’t sleep when it’s warm.” So I laugh a lot about it now, but it caused me a lot of headaches and gray hairs back then. Erin: So he could sleep, but you couldn’t! Ray: Right. Exactly. Erin: Ray, you wrote a book called Lessons Learned: Selling HVAC Service. In it, you say “Don’t spill your candy in the lobby.” What does that mean? Ray: Well, when I first got into the trade, I was a steamfitter and I worked for a control company and then I was involved in a really bad auto accident on the way home from work and I couldn’t do the work any more. So a friend of mine who was a contractor hired me on as a salesperson. Well, one of the jobs I went to, I was talking with the building owner and I said to him, “I think I can solve your problem.” And he said, “Well how exactly would you do that?” And I told him and he said, “Would you mind showing me a little bit of a drawing so I can show it to my boss? And we’ll get your company to do the work.” So I thought, great, I’m able to solve his problem. And I went back to the office and told my boss, “Well, we’re going to get this job. I know it.” About three days later, I get a request for bid to do exactly what I had put on this drawing that I’d made for this guy. He cropped my name off the paper and made it like it was his own. And we bid on the job and we did not get it. Then the person had the nerve to call me and say, “That didn’t work. You need to come back here and figure out what’s going on.” And, needless to say, I was furious. I went back and told my boss and he handed me a cup of coffee and he said, “Well, you spilled your coffee in the lobby.” And I said, “What the heck does that mean?” And he said, “That means that you gave away all of your tricks before you got paid for them. What you have to do is assure the people you can fix it, but don’t tell them how you’re going to do it until they agree to your terms.” So that was a lesson learned and I got burned a little bit, but it never happened to me again. Erin: So no more spilling candy? Ray: No. Erin: Well that’s excellent advice. Thanks for chatting with me today, Ray. We really appreciate it. Ray: I enjoyed it and I love what you’re doing with the website. Erin: Thank you. And if our listeners are interested in reading Ray Wohlfarth’s books, you can find them in our store at HeatingHelp.com. Ray also teaches seminars and you can find more information about them at boilerlessons.com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned for our next episode about putting an end to water hammer once and for all.

In 1993, Ray Good AKA Sugeray was one of the world's top DJs. He then had a breakdown, learnt to meditate and started a seafood empire. Now he's on a mission to teach mindfulness and meditation to business owners everywhere. Ommmmmmmmmmm ….   A little bit more about Ray Good ... The year was 1993. The Prodigy had just gone platinum, crop tops were cool and Ray Good was living the good life as one of the world's top 100 DJs, spinning decks at sold out rave in London, Tokyo and Berlin … organising large scale music events … he even owned a Australia's most respected import record store and his own record label. But then the good life came to an end. Ray was burning out and so were most of his mates. Eventually someone tapped him on the shoulder and suggested he try meditation. And from that point on he's never looked back. He launched a hugely successful sustainable seafood restaurant empire which he subsequently sold in order to focus 100% on his real passion … helping entrepreneurs and business owners find their Good Place via mediation. As Ray says, “the best guy to teach silence is the one who understands noise!”   In this candid chat Ray shares: His business building strategies His coping strategies How he built Hooked into a mini-empire How and why we should all meditate Ray even takes us through a beautiful guided meditation   “I don't do crystals, candles or sandals!.” - Ray Good, The Good Place   Here's what caught my attention from my chat with Ray Good from The Good Place: Invest in yourself and start to meditate. Great names can be the start of a great business idea. Every touch point has to be branded.   Ray Good Interview Transcription Tim I started off by asking Ray to describe his crazy life as a DJ. Ray Well pretty crazy yeah. As you just mentioned I made on the list of the world's top 100 DJs. But also at the same time, I was building up an empire. I was running large scale rave parties in Sydney and dance parties. I had weekly club nights going. I had my own import record store and record label as well. So this is quite an early age I guess this is the early 90s I was probably about 22 23. I'm living the dream and juggling a lot. It was inevitable I guess. I was going to burn out and it's also the first time I've really faced stress and anxiety in what I was doing. Click Here To Download Full Transcription   Resources mentioned: Ray's official website The Good Place Another episode I did on meditation a few months ago Brands To Life - The branding agency Ray uses   “We all need to power down before we power back up.” - Ray Good, The Good Place   Please support the following businesses who make this show possible:   American Express Business Explorer Credit Card Let your business expenses reward you. Every year.   Switchnode Australia's Internet isn't great. That's why Switchnode exist. The solution is here and it's wireless.   If something in this episode of Australia's favourite marketing podcast peaked your interest, then let me know by leaving a comment below. May your marketing be the best marketing. [For more interviews with successful business owners visit Small Business Big Marketing] See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today it’s just my special guest and me. But never fear, Tiffany, Sean, and Adriane will be back very soon. For the next few weeks, I’ll be sharing some interviews I did with great copywriters. I asked them to share their philosophies about how to write copy that sells. This week I’m interviewing David Garfinkel, the world’s greatest copywriting coach. But first… Click here to download or listen to this episode now. Spiritual Foundations: I want to encourage you to remember some important things as the week begins. In this week’s Spiritual Foundations, I talk about… (1:30) The one attribute most likely to help you approach every activity with excitement and enthusiasm. When you choose to approach each day in this way, you’ll remember that there’s a reason for everything that happens in your life. (2:30) The sometimes “hard-to-swallow” encouragement Paul gave to the Thessalonians. This one’s tough because sometimes we can’t see how it could possibly be God’s will for us. (3:15) Why I occasionally want to ask God, “why didn’t you do something about this?” It’s a question that helps me to remember what NOT to do in my everyday behavior. Hint: It’s one of those Proverbs that actually has a lot to do with being a copywriter. (3:45) What I learned from the owner of a Virtual Assistant business about my regular choice of words. It’s a small hinge that opens a big door of possibility. (4:40) What none of us can do if we expect good things to come in our lives. It’s not easy, but I want to encourage you to really give this a try. Ray's Tip Of The Week Today I want to feature one of my favorite new gadgets. I’ll tell you… (5:18) What never to go without on an airplane. Not only does this gadget make the flying experience more bearable, it even effects how tired I am at the end of the flight. (6:05) What always helps me leave the plane feeling refreshed and energized. I have a new enthusiasm for one of these things. The other is something I’ve been doing consistently for years that never fails to give me a boost. Episode Sponsor: (6:46) I have a question for you. Does your copy keep you up at night? Do you have a sales letter that’s not making sales for you and you wish you could fix it, but you don’t know how? Have you questioned, “Am I any good at copywriting? Is my copywriter any good at copywriting? What do I do about this, Ray?” Well, we’re offering a new service through my agency, Inklings, LLC. RayEdwards.com/CopyFix. I used to review copy for people on screen, doing a line-by-line edit of the copy. I showed them how to fix it so they could improve their conversions. And when I did this, I charged $10,000. But right now you can get the same service for just $2,500. We’ll go through your sales letter top to bottom, stem to stern, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph. We’ll show you the opportunities for improvement, the things that need to go, the things you need to add. And our goal is to improve your conversions, not incrementally, but exponentially–by a multiple. I can’t guarantee that of course, but what I can guarantee is we will make your copy better than it's ever been before. The problem is, there's only a limited number of spaces for this kind of service because it's very time consuming and individualized. So go to RayEdwards.com/CopyFix before the slots fill up and enroll in the “Copywriting Fix Program.” Feature Presentation: My guest today is David Garfinkel. He’s one of the most respected copywriters and copywriting coaches in the world. He’s worked with businesses in over 100 different industries including well-known companies like IBM, United Airlines, Pacific Bell, Time Life Books, and MCI. We talk about… (10:55) The dream job David left to become a freelance copywriter. His friends and family thought he was crazy, but even though he was super successful, the better he did in his regular job the more unhappy he became. (11:55) The ad for an unorthodox newsletter that changed everything for him. He read it 20 times and still couldn’t wrap his head around it. But somehow he knew it was the path to his future career and happiness. (13:20) How one of his first sales letters went on to make over $40,000,000 for his client. Even though it was less than 1,000 words, this ad ran for 8 years unchanged. If only he’d been paid more than $300 to write it, or at least, signed a royalty deal. (16:50) The secret almost all newbie copywriters, and even some advanced copywriters can’t get through their thick skulls. This one thing can make the difference in almost any copywriter’s career if they only surrender to it. (17:30) The outlandish practice used by novelist Stephen King and screenwriter Aaron Sorkin that can turn almost any copywriter into a copy magician. It’s not pretty or sexy. And the reason almost nobody uses it is because it’s so painfully tedious. (20:50) A perspective-shifting and completely fresh definition of “the 1%” and how it applies to copywriting. It describes the giant chasm between the 99%-ers and the 100%-ers. (22:24) The stupid-simple key to extraordinary results. How these 5 little words change everything.   (23:52) What Tony Robbins learned from coaching a top cosmetic surgeon and how it applies to the difference between being excellent and becoming outstanding in your chosen field. It’s one of those 2mm changes that turn regular people into masters of their craft. (27:35) Why David dropped out of a prestigious Ph.D. program. The idiotic academic mindset that tipped the scale and helped him see how advanced formal education was harming his career as a copywriter. (29:01) The tragedy David’s mother experienced and how it fuels his drive to pursue lifelong growth and learning. Everyone has fears when it comes to their eventual death. But what David saw his mother go through caused him to up his game as a way of staving off any potential hereditary effects of his mother’s condition. (31:48) The famous author David worked with and what he learned about life and productivity from this marketing master. The take-home lesson we all need to remember about not missing opportunities to meet people who’ve influenced us before it’s too late. (37:00) Why David doesn’t take many clients anymore and what he does instead. After many years or working in the industry, his new focus makes him feel more fulfilled and able to give greater value than any other practice he’s used before. (52:32) Who David spends most of his time working with today. It’s a select group of like-minded people, many of whom have gone on to have remarkable success in their copywriting careers. (54:05) The “inner game” of copywriting and the demons that come along with it. Why mindset is more important than tactical writing skills to most copywriters and how David helps them develop this part of their identity. If you’re a working copywriter and you want to get in touch with David Garfinkel for some coaching, you can reach him at GarfinkelCoaching.com. Resources RayEdwards.com/CopyFix Subscribe to the show through Apple Podcasts and give us a rating and review. Make sure you put your real name and website in the text of the review itself. We will mention you on this show. Get The Transcript Right-Click and “Save As” to Get the PDF Transcript.

Debbi Mack interviews crime fiction author Ray Flynt. The transcript is below, if you'd like to read it. Or download the PDF copy and read it later. Debbi: Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe. Your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before I introduce my guest, a quick reminder that the Crime Cafe Nine Book Set and Crime Cafe Short Story Anthology, are available for sale at all major online retailers and some minor ones too. In any event, just go to my website, debbimack.com and click on Crime Cafe, where you'll find the buy links as well as ways to subscribe to the podcast. And with that said, I'm thrilled to have on my program today, one of my old writers' group buddies, and a great mystery author as well as a master thespian, Ray Flynt. Hi Ray, I'm very glad to have you on today. It's awesome and thanks for being here. Ray: Well it's great to be with you and we do have a history, even though you're barely out of college and I'm 39 again. We do go back a few years. Debbi: Oh, please! Ray: I have fond memories of that writers group in Maryland for many, many years. Debbi: We miss you. Ray: It really kind of crystalized my writing, that group. Debbi: It's a great group and I'm glad to be a part of it and we miss you and think of you often (at least I do). Your first mystery, I remember reading parts of that I believe. Ray: Absolutely. Debbi: Unforgiving Shadows Ray: Unforgiving Shadows Debbi: Yes. It kind of seems to set up Brad Frame's backstory for kind of like the whole series that carries him through the whole series in a sense. Was that intentional? Ray: Yes, although it was not the first Brad Frame story that I wrote. Debbi: Ah, Okay. Ray: The first one that I wrote was entitled, Grateful Husband Loving Wife and it was not good, plain and simple. However, I thought when I finished it, it was a masterpiece you know. First of all, it was only about 40,000 words. It was not…I mean some might debate whether I'm a good writer now, but I was not a good writer back then and I rediscovered my manuscript for that book about 10 years after I'd written it and I started to read it and I thought, oh my god, this is just absolutely awful! Debbi: [laughs] Ray: So I know I've improved from then. So that was the first book and it really was I think unconnected character that I wanted to make Brad. One of the issues that (in my life) I wanted to infuse Brad Frame with was to create an investigator whose life had been informed by tragedy and that kind of shot him off into a different trajectory then he had been. In my own life, when I was in my mid 30's, I had a younger brother (age 22) that died. And it was certainly a tragic event for our family. It was something that we were all dealing with; trying to come to grips with, did a lot of reading, etc. The second book that I wrote with Brad Frame as the lead character, was a book that later got published called, Lady on the Edge, and in that book it features a South Carolina ceramic artist whose son's death had been ruled a suicide four years earlier. Brad Frame was in town and she reached out to him saying she didn't believe that her son would commit suicide. As a mystery writer, it has to be a murder mystery and, in fact, that's the case. But that book gave me the opportunity to explore suicide on families. Debbi: [agrees] Ray: So that was basically the second manuscript that I wrote…a book which was originally titled Death Scenes, and that is what became Unforgiving Shadows. …for me a little of the story…I think this is informative for writers. Some of my favorite authors growing up were like Reck Stout. So he had the Watson character that basically told his stories, you know. Debbi: [agrees] Ray: So originally I started off with the idea that Brad Frame, this wealthy member of the mainline in Philadelphia had hired a publicist to tell his stories and that cha...

Ray: In this final episode of this ProdPod series on hoarding, I asked Professional Organizer Sally Reinholdt to detail how hoarding is treated and managed. Sally, take it away.   Sally: The treatment and management of severe hoarding is very complex and needs to be addressed by a comprehensive team that can include mental health professionals, professional organizers, as well as junk removal and environmental clean-up companies. From a mental health aspect, traditional talk therapy has not been found to be helpful. Dr. David Tolin [ http://www.drtolin.com ], a psychologist who has worked extensively with hoarders, uses a cognitive behavioral approach that is active and solution focused. The hoarders he works with learn to sort and let go of their possessions in conjunction with thinking through their urges to constantly acquire. Hoarders are also taken on non-acquiring trips where they learn to see and touch items without keeping them. Using these methods, the majority of Dr. Tolin’s patients show significant improvement in their levels of clutter and their feelings around the clutter. That being said, a low number of patients are considered cured. Most patients will still have more clutter than the average person and will need ongoing support to prevent backsliding. Ray: If you're interested in Dr. Tolin's work and how it may help you, check out his fantastic book, Buried in Treasures: Help for Compulsive Acquiring, Saving, and Hoarding [ http://amzn.to/18FCpdx ]. Also, Dr. Tolin is the founder of the Institute of Living [ http://goo.gl/5sRsgK ] in Hartford, CT, so you may want to seek them out if you happen to be the greater New York metropolitan area. Ray: Well, thanks so much for joining me on ProdPod for this series about Hoarding, Sally. If you want to learn more about Sally Reinholdt and her professional organizing services head over to her website, COSOLVA.COM [ http://www.cosolva.com ].