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About PetePete does many startup things at Allma. Links: Last Tweet in AWS: https://lasttweetinaws.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/petecheslock LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petecheslock/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part byLaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visitlaunchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I am joined—as is tradition, for a post re:Invent wrap up, a month or so later, once everything is time to settle—by my friend and yours, Pete Cheslock. Pete, how are you?Pete: Hi, I'm doing fantastic. New year; new me. That's what I'm going with.Corey: That's the problem. I keep hoping for that, but every time I turn around, it's still me. And you know, honestly, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.Pete: Exactly. [laugh]. I wouldn't wish you on me either. But somehow I keep coming back for this.Corey: So, in two-thousand twenty—or twenty-twenty, as the children say—re:Invent was fully virtual. And that felt weird. Then re:Invent 2021 was a hybrid event which, let's be serious here, is not really those things. They had a crappy online thing and then a differently crappy thing in person. But it didn't feel real to me because you weren't there.That is part of the re:Invent tradition. There's a midnight madness thing, there's a keynote where they announce a bunch of nonsense, and then Pete and I go and have brunch on the last day of re:Invent and decompress, and more or less talk smack about everything that crosses our minds. And you weren't there this year. I had to backfill you with Tim Banks. You know, the person that I backfield you with here at The Duckbill Group as a principal cloud economist.Pete: You know, you got a great upgrade in hot takes, I feel like, with Tim.Corey: And other ways, too, but it's rude of me to say that to you directly. So yeah, his hot takes are spectacular. He was going to be doing this with me, except you cannot mess with tradition. You really can't.Pete: Yeah. I'm trying to think how many—is this third year? It's at least three.Corey: Third or fourth.Pete: Yeah, it's at least three. Yeah, it was, I don't want to say I was sad to not be there because, with everything going on, it's still weird out there. But I am always—I'm just that weird person who actually likes re:Invent, but not for I feel like the reasons people think. Again, I'm such an extroverted-type person, that it's so great to have this, like, serendipity to re:Invent. The people that you run into and the conversations that you have, and prior—like in 2019, I think was a great example because that was the last one I had gone to—you know, having so many conversations so quickly because everyone is there, right? It's like this magnet that attracts technologists, and venture capital, and product builders, and all this other stuff. And it's all compressed into, like, you know, that five-day span, I think is the biggest part that makes so great.Corey: The fear in people's eyes when they see me. And it was fun; I had a pair of masks with me. One of them was a standard mask, and no one recognizes anyone because, masks, and the other was a printout of my ridiculous face, which was horrifyingly uncanny, but also made it very easy for people to identify me. And depending upon how social I was feeling, I would wear one or the other, and it worked flawlessly. That was worth doing. They really managed to thread the needle, as well, before Omicron hit, but after the horrors of last year. So, [unintelligible 00:03:00]—Pete: It really—Corey: —if it were going on right now, it would not be going on right now.Pete: Yeah. I talk about really—yeah—really just hitting it timing-wise. Like, not that they could have planned for any of this, but like, as things were kind of not too crazy and before they got all crazy again, it feels like wow, like, you know, they really couldn't have done the event at any other time. And it's like, purely due to luck. I mean, absolute one hundred percent.Corey: That's the amazing power of frugality. Because the reason is then is it's the week after Thanksgiving every year when everything is dirt cheap. And, you know, if there's one thing that I one-point-seve—sorry, their stock's in the toilet—a $1.6 trillion company is very concerned about, it is saving money at every opportunity.Pete: Well, the one thing that was most curious about—so I was at the first re:Invent in-what—2012 I think it was, and there was—it was quaint, right?—there was 4000 people there, I want to say. It was in the thousands of people. Now granted, still a big conference, but it was in the Sands Convention Center. It was in that giant room, the same number of people, were you know, people's booths were like tables, like, eight-by-ten tables, right? [laugh].It had almost a DevOpsDays feel to it. And I was kind of curious if this one had any of those feelings. Like, did it evoke it being more quaint and personable, or was it just as soulless as it probably has been in recent years?Corey: This was fairly soulless because they reduced the footprint of the event. They dropped from two expo halls down to one, they cut the number of venues, but they still had what felt like 20,000 people or something there. It was still crowded, it was still packed. And I've done some diligent follow-ups afterwards, and there have been very few cases of Covid that came out of it. I quarantined for a week in a hotel, so I don't come back and kill my young kids for the wrong reasons.And that went—that was sort of like the worst part of it on some level, where it's like great. Now I could sit alone at a hotel and do some catch-up and all the rest, but all right I'd kind of like to go home. I'm not used to being on the road that much.Pete: Yeah, I think we're all a little bit out of practice. You know, I haven't been on a plane in years. I mean, the travel I've done more recently has been in my car from point A to point B. Like, direct, you know, thing. Actually, a good friend of mine who's not in technology at all had to travel for business, and, you know, he also has young kids who are under five, so he when he got back, he actually hid in a room in their house and quarantine himself in the room. But they—I thought, this is kind of funny—they never told the kids he was home. Because they knew that like—Corey: So, they just thought the house was haunted?Pete: [laugh].Corey: Like, “Don't go in the west wing,” sort of level of nonsense. That is kind of amazing.Pete: Honestly, like, we were hanging out with the family because they're our neighbors. And it was like, “Oh, yeah, like, he's in the guest room right now.” Kids have no idea. [laugh]. I'm like, “Oh, my God.” I'm like, I can't even imagine. Yeah.Corey: So, let's talk a little bit about the releases of re:Invent. And I'm going to lead up with something that may seem uncharitable, but I don't think it necessarily is. There weren't the usual torrent of new releases for ridiculous nonsense in the same way that there have been previously. There was no, this service talks to satellites in space. I mean, sure, there was some IoT stuff to manage fleets of cars, and giant piles of robots, and cool, I don't have those particular problems; I'm trying to run a website over here.So okay, great. There were enhancements to a number of different services that were in many cases appreciated, in other cases, irrelevant. Werner said in his keynote, that it was about focusing on primitives this year. And, “Why do we have so many services? It's because you asked for it… as customers.”Pete: [laugh]. Yeah, you asked for it.Corey: What have you been asking for, Pete? Because I know what I've been asking for and it wasn't that. [laugh].Pete: It's amazing to see a company continually say yes to everything, and somehow, despite their best efforts, be successful at doing it. No other company could do that. Imagine any other software technology business out there that just builds everything the customers ask for. Like from a product management business standpoint, that is, like, rule 101 is, “Listen to your customers, but don't say yes to everything.” Like, you can't do everything.Corey: Most companies can't navigate the transition between offering the same software in the Cloud and on a customer facility. So, it's like, “Ooh, an on-prem version, I don't know, that almost broke the company the last time we tried it.” Whereas you have Amazon whose product strategy is, “Yes,” being able to put together a whole bunch of things. I also will challenge the assertion that it's the primitives that customers want. They don't want to build a data center out of popsicle sticks themselves. They want to get something that solves a problem.And this has been a long-term realization for me. I used to work at Media Temple as a senior systems engineer running WordPress at extremely large scale. My websites now run on WordPress, and I have the good sense to pay WP Engine to handle it for me, instead of doing it myself because it's not the most productive use of my time. I want things higher up the stack. I assure you I pay more to WP Engine than it would cost me to run these things myself from an infrastructure point of view, but not in terms of my time.What I see sometimes as the worst of all worlds is that AWS is trying to charge for that value-added pricing without adding the value that goes along with it because you still got to build a lot of this stuff yourself. It's still a very janky experience, you're reduced to googling random blog posts to figure out how this thing is supposed to work, and the best documentation comes from externally. Whereas with a company that's built around offering solutions like this, great. In the fullness of time, I really suspect that if this doesn't change, their customers are going to just be those people who build solutions out of these things. And let those companies capture the up-the-stack margin. Which I have no problem with. But they do because Amazon is a company that lies awake at night actively worrying that someone, somewhere, who isn't them might possibly be making money somehow.Pete: I think MongoDB is a perfect example of—like, look at their stock price over the last whatever, years. Like, they, I feel like everyone called for the death of MongoDB every time Amazon came out with their new things, yet, they're still a multi-billion dollar company because I can just—give me an API endpoint and you scale the database. There's is—Corey: Look at all the high-profile hires that Mongo was making out of AWS, and I can't shake the feeling they're sitting there going, “Yeah, who's losing important things out of production now?” It's, everyone is exodus-ing there. I did one of those ridiculous graphics of the naming all the people that went over there, and in—with the hurricane evacuation traffic picture, and there's one car going the other way that I just labeled with, “Re:Invent sponsorship check,” because yeah, they have a top tier sponsorship and it was great. I've got to say I've been pretty down on MongoDB for a while, for a variety of excellent reasons based upon, more or less, how they treated customers who were in pain. And I'd mostly written it off.I don't do that anymore. Not because I inherently believe the technology has changed, though I'm told it has, but by the number of people who I deeply respect who are going over there and telling me, no, no, this is good. Congratulations. I have often said you cannot buy authenticity, and I don't think that they are, but the people who are working there, I do not believe that these people are, “Yeah, well, you bought my opinion. You can buy their attention, not their opinion.” If someone changes their opinion, based upon where they work, I kind of question everything they're telling me is, like, “Oh, you're just here to sell something you don't believe in? Welcome aboard.”Pete: Right. Yeah, there's an interview question I like to ask, which is, “What's something that you used to believe in very strongly that you've more recently changed your mind on?” And out of politeness because usually throws people back a little bit, and they're like, “Oh, wow. Like, let me think about that.” And I'm like, “Okay, while you think about that I want to give you mine.”Which is in the past, my strongly held belief was we had to run everything ourselves. “You own your availability,” was the line. “No, I'm not buying Datadog. I can build my own metric stack just fine, thank you very much.” Like, “No, I'm not going to use these outsourced load balancers or databases because I need to own my availability.”And what I realized is that all of those decisions lead to actually delivering and focusing on things that were not the core product. And so now, like, I've really flipped 180, that, if any—anything that you're building that does not directly relate to the core product, i.e. How your business makes money, should one hundred percent be outsourced to an expert that is better than you. Mongo knows how to run Mongo better than you.Corey: “What does your company do?” “Oh, we handle expense reports.” “Oh, what are you working on this month?” “I'm building a load balancer.” It's like that doesn't add the value. Don't do that.Pete: Right. Exactly. And so it's so interesting, I think, to hear Werner say that, you know, we're just building primitives, and you asked for this. And I think that concept maybe would work years ago, when you had a lot of builders who needed tools, but I don't think we have any, like, we don't have as many builders as before. Like, I think we have people who need more complete solutions. And that's probably why all these businesses are being super successful against Amazon.Corey: I'm wondering if it comes down to a cloud economic story, specifically that my cloud bill is always going to be variable and it's difficult to predict, whereas if I just use EC2 instances, and I build load balancers or whatnot, myself, well, yeah, it's a lot more work, but I can predict accurately what my staff compensation costs are more effectively, that I can predict what a CapEx charge would be or what the AWS bill is going to be. I'm wondering if that might in some way shape it?Pete: Well, I feel like the how people get better in managing their costs, right, you'll eventually move to a world where, like, “Yep, okay, first, we turned off waste,” right? Like, step one is waste. Step two is, like, understanding your spend better to optimize but, like, step three, like, the galaxy brain meme of Amazon cost stuff is all, like, unit economics stuff, where trying to better understand the actual cost deliver an actual feature. And yeah, I think that actually gets really hard when you give—kind of spread your product across, like, a slew of services that have varying levels of costs, varying levels of tagging, so you can attribute it. Like, it's really hard. Honestly, it's pretty easy if I have 1000 EC2 servers with very specific tags, I can very easily figure out what it costs to deliver product. But if I have—Corey: Yeah, if I have Corey build it, I know what Corey is going to cost, and I know how many servers he's going to use. Great, if I have Pete it, Pete's good at things, it'll cut that server bill in half because he actually knows how to wind up being efficient with things. Okay, great. You can start calculating things out that way. I don't think that's an intentional choice that companies are making, but I feel like that might be a natural outgrowth of it.Pete: Yeah. And there's still I think a lot of the, like, old school mentality of, like, the, “Not invented here,” the, “We have to own our availability.” You can still own your availability by using these other vendors. And honestly, it's really heartening to see so many companies realize that and realize that I don't need to get everything from Amazon. And honestly, like, in some things, like I look at a cloud Amazon bill, and I think to myself, it would be easier if you just did everything from Amazon versus having these ten other vendors, but those ten other vendors are going to be a lot better at running the product that they build, right, that as a service, then you probably will be running it yourself. Or even Amazon's, like, you know, interpretation of that product.Corey: A few other things that came out that I thought were interesting, at least the direction they're going in. The changes to S3 intelligent tiering are great, with instant retrieval on Glacier. I feel like that honestly was—they talk a good story, but I feel like that was competitive response to Google offering the same thing. That smacks of a large company with its use case saying, “You got two choices here.” And they're like, “Well, okay. Crap. We're going to build it then.”Or alternately, they're looking at the changes that they're making to intelligent tiering, they're now shifting that to being the default that as far as recommendations go. There are a couple of drawbacks to it, but not many, and it's getting easier now to not have the mental overhead of trying to figure out exactly what your lifecycle policies are. Yeah, there are some corner cases where, okay, if I adjust this just so, then I could save 10% on that monitoring fee or whatnot. Yeah, but look how much work that's going to take you to curate and make sure that you're not doing something silly. That feels like it is such an in the margins issue. It's like, “How much data you're storing?” “Four exabytes.” Okay, yeah. You probably want some people doing exactly that, but that's not most of us.Pete: Right. Well, there's absolutely savings to be had. Like, if I had an exabyte of data on S3—which there are a lot of people who have that level of data—then it would make sense for me to have an engineering team whose sole purpose is purely an optimizing our data lifecycle for that data. Until a point, right? Until you've optimized the 80%, basically. You optimize the first 80, that's probably, air-quote, “Easy.” The last 20 is going to be incredibly hard, maybe you never even do that.But at lower levels of scale, I don't think the economics actually work out to have a team managing your data lifecycle of S3. But the fact that now AWS can largely do it for you in the background—now, there's so many things you have to think about and, like, you know, understand even what your data is there because, like, not all data is the same. And since S3 is basically like a big giant database you can query, you got to really think about some of that stuff. But honestly, what I—I don't know if—I have no idea if this is even be worked on, but what I would love to see—you know, hashtag #AWSwishlist—is, now we have countless tiers of EBS volumes, EBS volumes that can be dynamically modified without touching, you know, the physical host. Meaning with an API call, you can change from the gp2 to gp3, or io whatever, right?Corey: Or back again if it doesn't pan out.Pete: Or back again, right? And so for companies with large amounts of spend, you know, economics makes sense that you should have a team that is analyzing your volumes usage and modifying that daily, right? Like, you could modify that daily, and I don't know if there's anyone out there that's actually doing it at that level. And they probably should. Like, if you got millions of dollars in EBS, like, there's legit savings that you're probably leaving on the table without doing that. But that's what I'm waiting for Amazon to do for me, right? I want intelligent tiering for EBS because if you're telling me I can API call and you'll move my data and make that better, make that [crosstalk 00:17:46] better [crosstalk 00:17:47]—Corey: Yeah it could be like their auto-scaling for DynamoDB, for example. Gives you the capacity you need 20 minutes after you needed it. But fine, whatever because if I can schedule stuff like that, great, I know what time of day, the runs are going to kick off that beat up the disks. I know when end-of-month reporting fires off. I know what my usage pattern is going to be, by and large.Yeah, part of the problem too, is that I look at this stuff, and I get excited about it with the intelligent tiering… at The Duckbill Group we've got a few hundred S3 buckets lurking around. I'm thinking, “All right, I've got to go through and do some changes on this and implement all of that.” Our S3 bill's something like 50 bucks a month or something ridiculous like that. It's a no, that really isn't a thing. Like, I have a screenshot bucket that I have an app installed—I think called Dropshare—that hooks up to anytime I drag—I hit a shortcut, I drag with the mouse to select whatever I want and boom, it's up there and the URL is not copied to my clipboard, I can paste that wherever I want.And I'm thinking like, yeah, there's no cleanup on that. There's no lifecycle policy that's turning into anything. I should really go back and age some of it out and do the rest and start doing some lifecycle management. It—I've been using this thing for years and I think it's now a whopping, what, 20 cents a month for that bucket. It's—I just don't—Pete: [laugh].Corey: —I just don't care, other than voice in the back of my mind, “That's an unbounded growth problem.” Cool. When it hits 20 bucks a month, then I'll consider it. But until then I just don't. It does not matter.Pete: Yeah, I think yeah, scale changes everything. Start adding some zeros and percentages turned into meaningful numbers. And honestly, back on the EBS thing, the one thing that really changed my perspective of EBS, in general, is—especially coming from the early days, right? One terabyte volume, it was a hard drive in a thing. It was a virtual LUN on a SAN somewhere, probably.Nowadays, and even, like, many years after those original EBS volumes, like all the limits you get in EBS, those are actually artificial limits, right? If you're like, “My EBS volume is too slow,” it's not because, like, the hard drive it's on is too slow. That's an artificial limit that is likely put in place due to your volume choice. And so, like, once you realize that in your head, then your concept of how you store data on EBS should change dramatically.Corey: Oh, AWS had a blog post recently talking about, like, with io2 and the limits and everything, and there was architecture thinking, okay. “So, let's say this is insufficient and the quarter-million IOPS a second that you're able to get is not there.” And I'm sitting there thinking, “That is just ludicrous data volume and data interactivity model.” And it's one of those, like, I'm sitting here trying to think about, like, I haven't had to deal with a problem like that decade, just because it's, “Huh. Turns out getting these one thing that's super fast is kind of expensive.” If you paralyze it out, that's usually the right answer, and that's how the internet is mostly evolved. But there are use cases for which that doesn't work, and I'm excited to see it. I don't want to pay for it in my view, but it's nice to see it.Pete: Yeah, it's kind of fun to go into the Amazon calculator and price out one of the, like, io2 volumes and, like, maxed out. It's like, I don't know, like $50,000 a month or a hun—like, it's some just absolutely absurd number. But the beauty of it is that if you needed that value for an hour to run some intensive data processing task, you can have it for an hour and then just kill it when you're done, right? Like, that is what is most impressive.Corey: I copied 130 gigs of data to an EFS volume, which was—[unintelligible 00:21:05] EFS has gone from “This is a piece of junk,” to one of my favorite services. It really is, just because of its utility and different ways of doing things. I didn't have the foresight, just use a second EFS volume for this. So, I was unzipping a whole bunch of small files onto it. Great.It took a long time for me to go through it. All right, now that I'm done with that I want to clean all this up. My answer was to ultimately spin up a compute node and wind up running a whole bunch of—like, 400, simultaneous rm-rf on that long thing. And it was just, like, this feels foolish and dumb, but here we are. And I'm looking at the stats on it because the instance was—all right, at that point, the load average [on the instance 00:21:41] was like 200, or something like that, and the EFS volume was like, “Ohh, wow, you're really churning on this. I'm now at, like, 5% of the limit.” Like, okay, great. It turns out I'm really bad at computers.Pete: Yeah, well, that's really the trick is, like, yeah, sure, you can have a quarter-million IOPS per second, but, like, what's going to break before you even hit that limit? Probably many other things.Corey: Oh, yeah. Like, feels like on some level if something gets to that point, it a misconfiguration somewhere. But honestly, that's the thing I find weirdest about the world in which we live is that at a small-scale—if I have a bill in my $5 a month shitposting account, great. If I screw something up and cost myself a couple hundred bucks in misconfiguration it's going to stand out. At large scale, it doesn't matter if—you're spending $50 million a year or $500 million a year on AWS and someone leaks your creds, and someone spins up a whole bunch of Bitcoin miners somewhere else, you're going to see that on your bill until they're mining basically all the Bitcoin. It just gets lost in the background.Pete: I'm waiting for those—I'm actually waiting for the next level of them to get smarter because maybe you have, like, an aggressive tagging system and you're monitoring for untagged instances, but the move here would be, first get the creds and query for, like, the most used tags and start applying those tags to your Bitcoin mining instances. My God, it'll take—Corey: Just clone a bunch of tags. Congratulations, you now have a second BI Elasticsearch cluster that you're running yourself. Good work.Pete: Yeah. Yeah, that people won't find that until someone comes along after the fact that. Like, “Why do we have two have these things?” And you're like—[laugh].Corey: “Must be a DR thing.”Pete: It's maxed-out CPU. Yeah, exactly.Corey: [laugh].Pete: Oh, the terrible ideas—please, please, hackers don't take are terrible ideas.Corey: I had a, kind of, whole thing I did on Twitter years ago, talking about how I would wind up using the AWS Marketplace for an embezzlement scheme. Namely, I would just wind up spinning up something that had, like, a five-cent an hour charge or whatnot on just, like, basically rebadge the CentOS Community AMI or whatnot. Great. And then write a blog post, not attached to me, that explains how to do a thing that I'm going to be doing in production in a week or two anyway. Like, “How to build an auto-scaling group,” and reference that AMI.Then if it ever comes out, like, “Wow, why are we having all these marketplace charges on this?” “I just followed the blog post like it said here.” And it's like, “Oh, okay. You're a dumbass. The end.”That's the way to do it. A month goes by and suddenly it came out that someone had done something similarly. They wound up rebadging these community things on the marketplace and charging big money for it, and I'm sitting there going like that was a joke. It wasn't a how-to. But yeah, every time I make these jokes, I worry someone's going to do it.Pete: “Welcome to large-scale fraud with Corey Quinn.”Corey: Oh, yeah, it's fraud at scale is really the important thing here.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: I still remember a year ago now at re:Invent 2021 was it, or was it 2020? Whatever they came out with, I want to say it wasn't gp3, or maybe it was, regardless, there was a new EBS volume type that came out that you were playing with to see how it worked and you experimented with it—Pete: Oh, yes.Corey: —and the next morning, you looked at the—I checked Slack and you're like well, my experiments yesterday cost us $5,000. And at first, like, the—my response is instructive on this because, first, it was, “Oh, my God. What's going to happen now?” And it's like, first, hang on a second.First off, that seems suspect but assume it's real. I assumed it was real at the outset. It's “Oh, right. This is not my personal $5-a-month toybox account. We are a company; we can absolutely pay that.” Because it's like, I could absolutely reach out, call it a favor. “I made a mistake, and I need a favor on the bill, please,” to AWS.And I would never live it down, let's be clear. For a $7,000 mistake, I would almost certainly eat it. As opposed to having to prostrate myself like that in front of Amazon. I'm like, no, no, no. I want one of those like—if it's like, “Okay, you're going to, like, set back the company roadmap by six months if you have to pay this. Do you want to do it?” Like, [groans] “Fine, I'll eat some crow.”But okay. And then followed immediately by, wow, if Pete of all people can mess this up, customers are going to be doomed here. We should figure out what happened. And I'm doing the math. Like, Pete, “What did you actually do?” And you're sitting there and you're saying, “Well, I had like a 20 gig volume that I did this.” And I'm doing the numbers, and it's like—Pete: Something's wrong.Corey: “How sure are you when you say ‘gigabyte,' that you were—that actually means what you think it did? Like, were you off by a lot? Like, did you mean exabytes?” Like, what's the deal here?Pete: Like, multiple factors.Corey: Yeah. How much—“How many IOPS did you give that thing, buddy?” And it turned out what happened was that when they launched this, they had mispriced it in the system by a factor of a million. So, it was fun. I think by the end of it, all of your experimentation was somewhere between five to seven cents. Which—Pete: Yeah. It was a—Corey: Which is why you don't work here anymore because no one cost me seven cents of money to give to Amazon—Pete: How dare you?Corey: —on my watch. Get out.Pete: How dare you, sir?Corey: Exactly.Pete: Yeah, that [laugh] was amazing to see, as someone who has done—definitely maid screw-ups that have cost real money—you know, S3 list requests are always a fun one at scale—but that one was supremely fun to see the—Corey: That was a scary one because another one they'd done previously was they had messed up Lightsail pricing, where people would log in, and, like, “Okay, so what is my Lightsail instance going to cost?” And I swear to you, this is true, it was saying—this was back in 2017 or so—the answer was, like, “$4.3 billion.” Because when you see that you just start laughing because you know it's a mistake. You know, that they're not going to actually demand that you spend $4.3 billion for a single instance—unless it's running SAP—and great.It's just, it's a laugh. It's clearly a mispriced, and it's clearly a bug that's going to get—it's going to get fixed. I just spun up this new EBS volume that no one fully understands yet and it cost me thousands of dollars. That's the sort of thing that no, no, I could actually see that happening. There are instances now that cost something like 100 bucks an hour or whatnot to run. I can see spinning up the wrong thing by mistake and getting bitten by it. There's a bunch of fun configuration mistakes you can make that will, “Hee, hee, hee. Why can I see that bill spike from orbit?” And that's the scary thing.Pete: Well, it's the original CI and CD problem of the per-hour billing, right? That was super common of, like, yeah, like, an i3, you know, 16XL server is pretty cheap per hour, but if you're charged per hour and you spin up a bunch for five minutes. Like, it—you will be shocked [laugh] by what you see there. So—Corey: Yeah. Mistakes will show. And I get it. It's also people as individuals are very different psychologically than companies are. With companies it's one of those, “Great we're optimizing to bring in more revenue and we don't really care about saving money at all costs.”Whereas people generally have something that looks a lot like a fixed income in the form of a salary or whatnot, so it's it is easier for us to cut spend than it is for us to go out and make more money. Like, I don't want to get a second job, or pitch my boss on stuff, and yeah. So, all and all, routing out the rest of what happened at re:Invent, they—this is the problem is that they have a bunch of minor things like SageMaker Inference Recommender. Yeah, I don't care. Anything—Pete: [laugh].Corey: —[crosstalk 00:28:47] SageMaker I mostly tend to ignore, for safety. I did like the way they described Amplify Studio because they made it sound like a WYSIWYG drag and drop, build a React app. It's not it. It basically—you can do that in Figma and then it can hook it up to some things in some cases. It's not what I want it to be, which is Honeycode, except good. But we'll get there some year. Maybe.Pete: There's a lot of stuff that was—you know, it's the classic, like, preview, which sure, like, from a product standpoint, it's great. You know, they have a level of scale where they can say, “Here's this thing we're building,” which could be just a twinkle in a product managers, call it preview, and get thousands of people who would be happy to test it out and give you feedback, and it's a, it's great that you have that capability. But I often look at so much stuff and, like, that's really cool, but, like, can I, can I have it now? Right? Like—or you can't even get into the preview plan, even though, like, you have that specific problem. And it's largely just because either, like, your scale isn't big enough, or you don't have a good enough relationship with your account manager, or I don't know, countless other reasons.Corey: The thing that really throws me, too, is the pre-announcements that come a year or so in advance, like, the Outpost smaller ones are finally available, but it feels like when they do too many pre-announcements or no big marquee service announcements, as much as they talk about, “We're getting back to fundamentals,” no, you have a bunch of teams that blew the deadline. That's really what it is; let's not call it anything else. Another one that I think is causing trouble for folks—I'm fortunate in that I don't do much work with Oracle databases, or Microsoft SQL databases—but they extended RDS Custom to Microsoft SQL at the [unintelligible 00:30:27] SQL server at re:Invent this year, which means this comes down to things I actually use, we're going to have a problem because historically, the lesson has always been if I want to run my own databases and tweak everything, I do it on top of an EC2 instance. If I want to managed database, relational database service, great, I use RDS. RDS Custom basically gives you root into the RDS instance. Which means among other things, yes, you can now use RDS to run containers.But it lets you do a lot of things that are right in between. So, how do you position this? When should I use RDS Custom? Can you give me an easy answer to that question? And they used a lot of words to say, no, they cannot. It's basically completely blowing apart the messaging and positioning of both of those services in some unfortunate ways. We'll learn as we go.Pete: Yeah. Honestly, it's like why, like, why would I use this? Or how would I use this? And this is I think, fundamentally, what's hard when you just say yes to everything. It's like, they in many cases, I don't think, like, I don't want to say they don't understand why they're doing this, but if it's not like there's a visionary who's like, this fits into this multi-year roadmap.That roadmap is largely—if that roadmap is largely generated by the customers asking for it, then it's not like, oh, we're building towards this Northstar of RDS being whatever. You might say that, but your roadmap's probably getting moved all over the place because, you know, this company that pays you a billion dollars a year is saying, “I would give you $2 billion a year for all of my Oracle databases, but I need this specific thing.” I can't imagine a scenario that they would say, “Oh, well, we're building towards this Northstar, and that's not on the way there.” Right? They'd be like, “New Northstar. Another billion dollars, please.”Corey: Yep. Probably the worst release of re:Invent, from my perspective, is RUM, Real User Monitoring, for CloudWatch. And I, to be clear, I wrote a shitposting Twitter threading client called Last Tweet in AWS. Go to lasttweetinaws.com. You can all use it. It's free; I just built this for my own purposes. And I've instrumented it with RUM. Now, Real User Monitoring is something that a lot of monitoring vendors use, and also CloudWatch now. And what that is, is it embeds a listener into the JavaScript that runs on client load, and it winds up looking at what's going on loading times, et cetera, so you can see when users are unhappy. I have no problem with this. Other than that, you know, liking users? What's up with that?Pete: Crazy.Corey: But then, okay, now, what this does is unlike every other RUM tool out there, which charges per session, meaning I am going to be… doing a web page load, it charges per data item, which includes HTTP errors, or JavaScript errors, et cetera. Which means that if you have a high transaction volume site and suddenly your CDN takes a nap like Fastly did for an hour last year, suddenly your bill is stratospheric for this because errors abound and cascade, and you can have thousands of errors on a single page load for these things, and it is going to be visible from orbit, at least with a per session basis thing, when you start to go viral, you understand that, “Okay, this is probably going to cost me some more on these things, and oops, I guess I should write less compelling content.” Fine. This is one of those one misconfiguration away and you are wailing and gnashing teeth. Now, this is a new service. I believe that they will waive these surprise bills in the event that things like that happen. But it's going to take a while and you're going to be worrying the whole time if you've rolled this out naively. So it's—Pete: Well and—Corey: —I just don't like the pricing.Pete: —how many people will actively avoid that service, right? And honestly, choose a competitor because the competitor could be—the competitor could be five times more expensive, right, on face value, but it's the certainty of it. It's the uncertainty of what Amazon will charge you. Like, no one wants a surprise bill. “Well, a vendor is saying that they'll give us this contract for $10,000. I'm going to pay $10,000, even though RUM might be a fraction of that price.”It's honestly, a lot of these, like, product analytics tools and monitoring tools, you'll often see they price be a, like, you know, MAU, Monthly Active User, you know, or some sort of user-based pricing, like, the number of people coming to your site. You know, and I feel like at least then, if you are trying to optimize for lots of users on your site, and more users means more revenue, then you know, if your spend is going up, but your revenue is also going up, that's a win-win. But if it's like someone—you know, your third-party vendor dies and you're spewing out errors, or someone, you know, upgraded something and it spews out errors. That no one would normally see; that's the thing. Like, unless you're popping open that JavaScript console, you're not seeing any of those errors, yet somehow it's like directly impacting your bottom line? Like that doesn't feel [crosstalk 00:35:06].Corey: Well, there is something vaguely Machiavellian about that. Like, “How do I get my developers to care about errors on consoles?” Like, how about we make it extortionately expensive for them not to. It's, “Oh, all right, then. Here we go.”Pete: And then talk about now you're in a scenario where you're working on things that don't directly impact the product. You're basically just sweeping up the floor and then trying to remove errors that maybe don't actually affect it and they're not actually an error.Corey: Yeah. I really do wonder what the right answer is going to be. We'll find out. Again, we live, we learn. But it's also, how long does it take a service that has bad pricing at launch, or an unfortunate story around it to outrun that reputation?People are still scared of Glacier because of its original restore pricing, which was non-deterministic for any sensible human being, and in some cases lead to I'm used to spending 20 to 30 bucks a month on this. Why was I just charged two grand?Pete: Right.Corey: Scare people like that, they don't come back.Pete: I'm trying to actually remember which service it is that basically gave you an estimate, right? Like, turn it on for a month, and it would give you an estimate of how much this was going to cost you when billing started.Corey: It was either Detective or GuardDuty.Pete: Yeah, it was—yeah, that's exactly right. It was one of those two. And honestly, that was unbelievably refreshing to see. You know, like, listen, you have the data, Amazon. You know what this is going to cost me, so when I, like, don't make me spend all this time to go and figure out the cost. If you have all this data already, just tell me, right?And if I look at it and go, “Yeah, wow. Like, turning this on in my environment is going to cost me X dollars. Like, yeah, that's a trade-off I want to make, I'll spend that.” But you know, with some of the—and that—a little bit of a worry on some of the intelligent tiering on S3 is that the recommendation is likely going to be everything goes to intelligent tiering first, right? It's the gp3 story. Put everything on gp3, then move it to the proper volume, move it to an sc or an st or an io. Like, gp3 is where you start. And I wonder if that's going to be [crosstalk 00:37:08].Corey: Except I went through a wizard yesterday to launch an EC2 instance and its default on the free tier gp2.Pete: Yeah. Interesting.Corey: Which does not thrill me. I also still don't understand for the life of me why in some regions, the free tier is a t2 instance, when t3 is available.Pete: They're uh… my guess is that they've got some free t—they got a bunch of t2s lying around. [laugh].Corey: Well, one of the most notable announcements at re:Invent that most people didn't pay attention to is their ability now to run legacy instance types on top of Nitro, which really speaks to what's going on behind the scenes of we can get rid of all that old hardware and emulate the old m1 on modern equipment. So, because—you can still have that legacy, ancient instance, but now you're going—now we're able to wind up greening our data centers, which is part of their big sustainability push, with their ‘Sustainability Pillar' for the well-architected framework. They're talking more about what the green choices in cloud are. Which is super handy, not just because of the economic impact because we could use this pretty directly to reverse engineer their various margins on a per-service or per-offering basis. Which I'm not sure they're aware of yet, but oh, they're going to be.And that really winds up being a win for the planet, obviously, but also something that is—that I guess puts a little bit of choice on customers. The challenge I've got is, with my serverless stuff that I build out, if I spend—the Google search I make to figure out what the most economic, most sustainable way to do that is, is going to have a bigger carbon impact on the app itself. That seems to be something that is important at scale, but if you're not at scale, it's one of those, don't worry about it. Because let's face it, the cloud providers—all of them—are going to have a better sustainability story than you are running this in your own data centers, or on a Raspberry Pi that's always plugged into the wall.Pete: Yeah, I mean, you got to remember, Amazon builds their own power plants to power their data centers. Like, that's the level they play, right? There, their economies of scale are so entirely—they're so entirely different than anything that you could possibly even imagine. So, it's something that, like, I'm sure people will want to choose for. But, you know, if I would honestly say, like, if we really cared about our computing costs and the carbon footprint of it, I would love to actually know the carbon footprint of all of the JavaScript trackers that when I go to various news sites, and it loads, you know, the whatever thousands of trackers and tracking the all over, like, what is the carbon impact of some of those choices that I actually could control, like, as a either a consumer or business person?Corey: I really hope that it turns into something that makes a meaningful difference, and it's not just greenwashing. But we'll see. In the fullness of time, we're going to figure that out. Oh, they're also launching some mainframe stuff. They—like that's great.Pete: Yeah, those are still a thing.Corey: I don't deal with a lot of customers that are doing things with that in any meaningful sense. There is no AWS/400, so all right.Pete: [laugh]. Yeah, I think honestly, like, I did talk to a friend of mine who's in a big old enterprise and has a mainframe, and they're actually replacing their mainframe with Lambda. Like they're peeling off—which is, like, a great move—taking the monolith, right, and peeling off the individual components of what it can do into these discrete Lambda functions. Which I thought was really fascinating. Again, it's a five-year-long journey to do something like that. And not everyone wants to wait five years, especially if their support's about to run out for that giant box in the, you know, giant warehouse.Corey: The thing that I also noticed—and this is probably the—I guess, one of the—talk about swing and a miss on pricing—they have a—what is it?—there's a VPC IP Address Manager, which tracks the the IP addresses assigned to your VPCs that are allocated versus not, and it's 20 cents a month per IP address. It's like, “Okay. So, you're competing against a Google Sheet or an Excel spreadsheet”—which is what people are using for these things now—“Only you're making it extortionately expensive?”Pete: What kind of value does that provide for 20—I mean, like, again—Corey: I think Infoblox or someone like that offers it where they become more cost-effective as soon as you hit 500 IP addresses. And it's just—like, this is what I'm talking about. I know it does not cost AWS that kind of money to store an IP address. You can store that in a Route 53 TXT record for less money, for God's sake. And that's one of those, like, “Ah, we could extract some value pricing here.”Like, I don't know if it's a good product or not. Given its pricing, I don't give a shit because it's going to be too expensive for anything beyond trivial usage. So, it's a swing and a miss from that perspective. It's just, looking at that, I laugh, and I don't look at it again.Pete: See I feel—Corey: I'm not usually price sensitive. I want to be clear on that. It's just, that is just Looney Tunes, clown shoes pricing.Pete: Yeah. It's honestly, like, in many cases, I think the thing that I have seen, you know, in the past few years is, in many cases, it can honestly feel like Amazon is nickel-and-diming their customers in so many ways. You know, the explosion of making it easy to create multiple Amazon accounts has a direct impact to waste in the cloud because there's a lot of stuff you have to have her account. And the more accounts you have, those costs grow exponentially as you have these different places. Like, you kind of lose out on the economies of scale when you have a smaller number of accounts.And yeah, it's hard to optimize for that. Like, if you're trying to reduce your spend, it's challenging to say, “Well, by making a change here, we'll save, you know, $10,000 in this account.” “That doesn't seem like a lot when we're spending millions.” “Well, hold on a second. You'll save $10,000 per account, and you have 500 accounts,” or, “You have 1000 accounts,” or something like that.Or almost cost avoidance of this cost is growing unbounded in all of your accounts. It's tiny right now. So, like, now would be the time you want to do something with it. But like, again, for a lot of companies that have adopted the practice of endless Amazon accounts, they've almost gone, like, it's the classic, like, you know, I've got 8000 GitHub repositories for my source code. Like, that feels just as bad as having one GitHub repository for your repo. I don't know what the balance is there, but anytime these different types of services come out, it feels like, “Oh, wow. Like, I'm going to get nickeled and dimed for it.”Corey: This ties into the re:Post launch, which is a rebranding of their forums, where, okay, great, it was a little crufty and it need modernize, but it still ties your identity to an IAM account, or the root email address for an Amazon account, which is great. This is completely worthless because as soon as I change jobs, I lose my identity, my history, the rest, on this forum. I'm not using it. It shows that there's a lack of awareness that everyone is going to have multiple accounts with which they interact, and that people are going to deal with the platform longer than any individual account will. It's just a continual swing and a miss on things like that.And it gets back to the billing question of, “Okay. When I spin up an account, do I want them to just continue billing me—because don't turn this off; this is important—or do I want there to be a hard boundary where if you're about to charge me, turn it off. Turn off the thing that's about to cost me money.” And people hem and haw like this is an insurmountable problem, but I think the way to solve it is, let me specify that intent when I provision the account. Where it's, “This is a production account for a bank. I really don't want you turning it off.” Versus, “I'm a student learner who thinks that a Managed NAT Gateway might be a good thing. Yeah, I want you to turn off my demo Hello World app that will teach me what's going on, rather than surprising me with a five-figure bill at the end of the month.”Pete: Yeah. It shouldn't be that hard. I mean, but again, I guess everything's hard at scale.Corey: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.Pete: But still, I feel like every time I log into Cost Explorer and I look at—and this is years it's still not fixed. Not that it's even possible to fix—but on the first day of the month, you look at Cost Explorer, and look at what Amazon is estimating your monthly bill is going to be. It's like because of your, you know—Corey: Your support fees, and your RI purchases, and savings plans purchases.Pete: [laugh]. All those things happened, right? First of the month, and it's like, yeah, “Your bill's going to be $800,000 this year.” And it's like, “Shouldn't be, like, $1,000?” Like, you know, it's the little things like that, that always—Corey: The one-off charges, like, “Oh, your Route 53 zone,” and all the stuff that gets charged on a monthly cadence, which fine, whatever. I mean, I'm okay with it, but it's also the, like, be careful when that happen—I feel like there's a way to make that user experience less jarring.Pete: Yeah because that problem—I mean, in my scenario, companies that I've worked at, there's been multiple times that a non-technical person will look at that data and go into immediate freakout mode, right? And that's never something that you want to have happen because now that's just adding a lot of stress and anxiety into a company that is—with inaccurate data. Like, the data—like, the answer you're giving someone is just wrong. Perhaps you shouldn't even give it to them if it's that wrong. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens this coming year. We're already seeing promising stuff. They—give people a timeline on how long in advance these things record—late last night, AWS released a new console experience. When you log into the AWS console now, there's a new beta thing. And I gave it some grief on Twitter because I'm still me, but like the direction it's going. It lets you customize your view with widgets and whatnot.And until they start selling widgets on marketplace or having sponsored widgets, you can't remove I like it, which is no guarantee at some point. But it shows things like, I can move the cost stuff, I can move the outage stuff up around, I can have the things that are going on in my account—but who I am means I can shift this around. If I'm a finance manager, cool. I can remove all the stuff that's like, “Hey, you want to get started spinning up an EC2 instance?” “Absolutely not. Do I want to get told, like, how to get certified? Probably not. Do I want to know what the current bill is and whether—and my list of favorites that I've pinned, whatever services there? Yeah, absolutely do.” This is starting to get there.Pete: Yeah, I wonder if it really is a way to start almost hedging on organizations having a wider group of people accessing AWS. I mean, in previous companies, I absolutely gave access to the console for tools like QuickSight, for tools like Athena, for the DataBrew stuff, the Glue DataBrew. Giving, you know, non-technical people access to be able to do these, like, you know, UI ETL tasks, you know, a wider group of a company is getting access into Amazon. So, I think anything that Amazon does to improve that experience for, you know, the non-SREs, like the people who would traditionally log in, like, that is an investment definitely worth making.Corey: “Well, what could non-engineering types possibly be doing in the AWS console?” “I don't know, jackhole, maybe paying the bill? Just a thought here.” It's the, there are people who look at these things from a variety of different places, and you have such sprawl in the AWS world that there are different personas by a landslide. If I'm building Twitter for Pets, you probably don't want to be pitching your mainframe migration services to me the same way that you would if I were a 200-year-old insurance company.Pete: Yeah, exactly. And the number of those products are going to grow, the number of personas are going to grow, and, yeah, they'll have to do something that they want to actually, you know, maintain that experience so that every person can have, kind of, the experience that they want, and not be distracted, you know? “Oh, what's this? Let me go test this out.” And it's like, you know, one-time charge for $10,000 because, like, that's how it's charged. You know, that's not an experience that people like.Corey: No. They really don't. Pete, I want to thank you for spending the time to chat with me again, as is our tradition. I'm hoping we can do it in person this year, when we go at the end of 2022, to re:Invent again. Or that no one goes in person. But this hybrid nonsense is for the birds.Pete: Yeah. I very much would love to get back to another one, and yeah, like, I think there could be an interesting kind of merging here of our annual re:Invent recap slash live brunch, you know, stream you know, hot takes after a long week. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yeah. The real way that you know that it's a good joke is when one of us says something, the other one sprays scrambled eggs out of their nose. Yeah, that's the way to do it.Pete: Exactly. Exactly.Corey: Pete, thank you so much. If people want to learn more about what you're up to—hopefully, you know, come back. We miss you, but you're unaffiliated, you're a startup advisor. Where can people find you to learn more, if they for some unforgivable reason don't know who or what a Pete Cheslock is?Pete: Yeah. I think the easiest place to find me is always on Twitter. I'm just at @petecheslock. My DMs are always open and I'm always down to expand my network and chat with folks.And yeah, right, now, I'm just, as I jokingly say, professionally unaffiliated. I do some startup advisory work and have been largely just kind of—honestly checking out the state of the economy. Like, there's a lot of really interesting companies out there, and some interesting problems to solve. And, you know, trying to spend some of my time learning more about what companies are up to nowadays. So yeah, if you got some interesting problems, you know, you can follow my Twitter or go to LinkedIn if you want some great, you know, business hot takes about, you know, shitposting basically.Corey: Same thing. Pete, thanks so much for joining me, I appreciate it.Pete: Thanks for having me.Corey: Pete Cheslock, startup advisor, professionally unaffiliated, and recurring re:Invent analyst pal of mine. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment calling me a jackass because do I know how long it took you personally to price CloudWatch RUM?Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tonga volcano eruption detected at Tonga volcano for the second time Patrick responds to Frank's email about calling out “My Lord, My God” during the consecration. Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin bans critical race theory, school mask rules Francine - I think you are dead wrong in your opinion about the man you saw at Mass. Doesn't the bible tell us to say 'my Lord and my God?' Chris - Question about your response to a man last week about a non-married couple living together. I have several couples in and out of our home who are unmarried. Shouldn't I show them patience and allow them to see my happily married life? Patrick - I am a former Roman Catholic and I support you position in relation to the topic of Mass and yelling out at the consecration. Janice - Follow up about unmarried couple living together. I don't see why this is a dilemma. People should know what is expected of them. Juliette - Regarding the man yelling out at the consecration: Maybe people don't have the better understanding of what liturgy is vs. private devotion. Lupe - My son came home a couple of weeks ago and at a Spanish Mass people collectively say 'My Lord and my God.' Is this ok?

Scripture of the Day:   Matthew 6:6“But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray toyour Father, who is unseen. Then, your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” Do Not Pray to Be Seen Praying  These verses in Matthew chapter 6 are talking about doing things for immediate rewards. Recognition. Public recognition like “Oh, he or she is such a saint,” type of recognition. Later, in verses 19-20, Jesus teaches us, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasure in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.” We are not to do things for earthly rewards or treasures—getting immediate results from our actions. Instead, we should do things for Christ and lay up treasures in heaven. We may not get results right away, but everything good done for Christ will eventually be rewarded. Should we be satisfied with earthly rewards, or should we desire rewards in heaven for the cause of Christ?  Now let us apply this principle to what Jesus said about prayer. Should we pray to be seen and praised by people who will be amazed at how “spiritual” we sound? Or should we pray to praise God and let our requests be known? Obviously, praying for the sake of being seen by others focuses on earthly rewards.  Jesus is not saying if we should pray in public or not. He is saying we need to understand the reason we are praying. Is it to get results or is it to be seen? When Jesus told His disciples to pray privately, He was emphasizing the need to pray when nobody else even knows we are praying.  Why would someone do that? Because they are spending quality time, alone, with the Creator of the Universe. Who just happens to be our Heavenly Father. Do you think God cherishes that time with His children?  Imagine if your child would only honor you and talk nice to you when you were out in public or you had company over…the rest of the time, they either demanded stuff from you or ignored you altogether. How would that make you feel?  But, if your child truly honored you, if your child truly spent time with you when they could be doing other things – not to get something, but just to be in your presence…how would that make you feel? Good, right?  And then, if one day, your child came to you and said, “I really need your help with this…” and laid out a problem they were having – would you move to help them? Immediately? Of course you would… But, if your child was one that neglected you, abused you, ridiculed you, except when they could be observed by others and everyone thought they were the best kid in town…they are fooling everyone… and then the kid comes in and say, “Hey, I need your help with this. Give me, give me, give me, give me…” The first couple of times, you might help them. But with no change in their attitude, there will come a time when the answer is “NO.” Then, the true colors of the child come out!  “You don't love me? I hate you! Etc. etc.” Right?  So, if that is how YOU are – imagine how God is feeling when His kids treat Him the same way. That is what Jesus is saying here… SPEND TIME WITH GOD ALONE. With nobody else around. Not to pester Him and beg Him for STUFF…but just to be in His Presence. Do it when nobody else is around. Then, when there is a need – He will reward you and will do so OPENLY. That means you really do not even need to ask. He knows your needs before you ask Him, scripture says. And when He blesses you openly like that, then others will see it and ask you, “WOW – That was a big blessing” and you will respond with, “My God blesses me…” It is a testimony to your relationship with God! Amen!  I want to pray with you right now… Let's pray for forgiveness for neglecting our relationship with God, our Heavenly Father, and for His Wisdom in how to

1 Epiphany First Psalm: Psalms 16–17 Psalms 16–17 (Listen) You Will Not Abandon My Soul A Miktam1 of David. 16   Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.2   I say to the LORD, “You are my Lord;    I have no good apart from you.” 3   As for the saints in the land, they are the excellent ones,    in whom is all my delight.2 4   The sorrows of those who run after3 another god shall multiply;    their drink offerings of blood I will not pour out    or take their names on my lips. 5   The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup;    you hold my lot.6   The lines have fallen for me in pleasant places;    indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance. 7   I bless the LORD who gives me counsel;    in the night also my heart instructs me.48   I have set the LORD always before me;    because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. 9   Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being5 rejoices;    my flesh also dwells secure.10   For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,    or let your holy one see corruption.6 11   You make known to me the path of life;    in your presence there is fullness of joy;    at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. In the Shadow of Your Wings A Prayer of David. 17   Hear a just cause, O LORD; attend to my cry!    Give ear to my prayer from lips free of deceit!2   From your presence let my vindication come!    Let your eyes behold the right! 3   You have tried my heart, you have visited me by night,    you have tested me, and you will find nothing;    I have purposed that my mouth will not transgress.4   With regard to the works of man, by the word of your lips    I have avoided the ways of the violent.5   My steps have held fast to your paths;    my feet have not slipped. 6   I call upon you, for you will answer me, O God;    incline your ear to me; hear my words.7   Wondrously show7 your steadfast love,    O Savior of those who seek refuge    from their adversaries at your right hand. 8   Keep me as the apple of your eye;    hide me in the shadow of your wings,9   from the wicked who do me violence,    my deadly enemies who surround me. 10   They close their hearts to pity;    with their mouths they speak arrogantly.11   They have now surrounded our steps;    they set their eyes to cast us to the ground.12   He is like a lion eager to tear,    as a young lion lurking in ambush. 13   Arise, O LORD! Confront him, subdue him!    Deliver my soul from the wicked by your sword,14   from men by your hand, O LORD,    from men of the world whose portion is in this life.8  You fill their womb with treasure;9    they are satisfied with children,    and they leave their abundance to their infants. 15   As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;    when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness. Footnotes [1] 16:1 Probably a musical or liturgical term [2] 16:3 Or To the saints in the land, the excellent in whom is all my delight, I say: [3] 16:4 Or who acquire [4] 16:7 Hebrew my kidneys instruct me [5] 16:9 Hebrew my glory [6] 16:10 Or see the pit [7] 17:7 Or Distinguish me by [8] 17:14 Or from men whose portion in life is of the world [9] 17:14 Or As for your treasured ones, you fill their womb (ESV) Second Psalm: Psalm 22 Psalm 22 (Listen) Why Have You Forsaken Me? To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. 22   My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?    Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?2   O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,    and by night, but I find no rest. 3   Yet you are holy,    enthroned on the praises1 of Israel.4   In you our fathers trusted;    they trusted, and you delivered them.5   To you they cried and were rescued;    in you they trusted and were not put to shame. 6   But I am a worm and not a man,    scorned by mankind and despised by the people.7   All who see me mock me;    they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;8   “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him;    let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” 9   Yet you are he who took me from the womb;    you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.10   On you was I cast from my birth,    and from my mother's womb you have been my God.11   Be not far from me,    for trouble is near,    and there is none to help. 12   Many bulls encompass me;    strong bulls of Bashan surround me;13   they open wide their mouths at me,    like a ravening and roaring lion. 14   I am poured out like water,    and all my bones are out of joint;  my heart is like wax;    it is melted within my breast;15   my strength is dried up like a potsherd,    and my tongue sticks to my jaws;    you lay me in the dust of death. 16   For dogs encompass me;    a company of evildoers encircles me;  they have pierced my hands and feet2—17   I can count all my bones—  they stare and gloat over me;18   they divide my garments among them,    and for my clothing they cast lots. 19   But you, O LORD, do not be far off!    O you my help, come quickly to my aid!20   Deliver my soul from the sword,    my precious life from the power of the dog!21     Save me from the mouth of the lion!  You have rescued3 me from the horns of the wild oxen! 22   I will tell of your name to my brothers;    in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:23   You who fear the LORD, praise him!    All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,    and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!24   For he has not despised or abhorred    the affliction of the afflicted,  and he has not hidden his face from him,    but has heard, when he cried to him. 25   From you comes my praise in the great congregation;    my vows I will perform before those who fear him.26   The afflicted4 shall eat and be satisfied;    those who seek him shall praise the LORD!    May your hearts live forever! 27   All the ends of the earth shall remember    and turn to the LORD,  and all the families of the nations    shall worship before you.28   For kingship belongs to the LORD,    and he rules over the nations. 29   All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;    before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,    even the one who could not keep himself alive.30   Posterity shall serve him;    it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;31   they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,    that he has done it. Footnotes [1] 22:3 Or dwelling in the praises [2] 22:16 Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint, Vulgate, Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts like a lion [they are at] my hands and feet [3] 22:21 Hebrew answered [4] 22:26 Or The meek (ESV) Old Testament: Genesis 6:1–8 Genesis 6:1–8 (Listen) Increasing Corruption on Earth 6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in1 man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim2 were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Footnotes [1] 6:3 Or My Spirit shall not contend with [2] 6:4 Or giants (ESV) New Testament: Hebrews 3:12–19 Hebrews 3:12–19 (Listen) 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,   “Today, if you hear his voice,  do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. (ESV) Gospel: John 2:1–12 John 2:1–12 (Listen) The Wedding at Cana 2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.1 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. 12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers2 and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days. Footnotes [1] 2:6 Greek two or three measures (metrētas); a metrētēs was about 10 gallons or 35 liters [2] 2:12 Or brothers and sisters. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, the plural Greek word adelphoi (translated “brothers”) may refer either to brothers or to brothers and sisters (ESV)

About MaciejMaciej Winnicki is a serverless enthusiast with over 6 years of experience in writing software with no servers whatsoever. Serverless Engineer at Stedi, Cloudash Founder, ex-Engineering Manager, and one of the early employees at Serverless Inc.Links: Cloudash: https://cloudash.dev Maciej Winnicki Twitter: https://twitter.com/mthenw Tomasz Łakomy Twitter: https://twitter.com/tlakomy Cloudash email: hello@cloudash.dev TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part byLaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visitlaunchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. And my guest today is Maciej Winnicki, who is the founder of Cloudash. Now, before I dive into the intricacies of what that is, I'm going to just stake out a position that one of the biggest painful parts of working with AWS in any meaningful sense, particularly in a serverless microservices way, is figuring out what the hell's going on in the environment. There's a bunch of tools offered to do this and they're all—yeee, they aspire to mediocrity. Maciej, thank you for joining me today.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. And my guest today is Maciej Winnicki, who is the founder of Cloudash. Now, before I dive into the intricacies of what that is, I'm going to just stake out a position that one of the biggest painful parts of working with AWS in any meaningful sense, particularly in a serverless microservices way, is figuring out what the hell's going on in the environment. There's a bunch of tools offered to do this and they're all—yeee, they aspire to mediocrity. Maciej, thank you for joining me today.Maciej: Thank you for having me.Corey: So, I turned out to have accidentally blown up Cloudash, sort of before you were really ready for the attention. You, I think, tweeted about it or put it on Hacker News or something; I stumbled over it because it turns out that anything that vaguely touches cloud winds up in my filters because of awesome technology, and personality defects on my part. And I tweeted about it as I set it up and got the thing running, and apparently this led to a surge of attention on this thing that you've built. So, let me start off with an apology. Oops, I didn't realize it was supposed to be a quiet launch.Maciej: I actually thank you for that. Like, that was great. And we get a lot of attention from your tweet thread, actually because at the end, that was the most critical part. At the end of the twitter, you wrote that you're staying as a customer, so we have it on our website and this is perfect. But actually, as you said, that's correct.Our marketing strategy for releasing Cloudash was to post it on LinkedIn. I know this is not, kind of, the best strategy, but that was our plan. Like, it was like, hey, like, me and my friend, Tomasz, who's also working on Cloudash, we thought like, let's just post it on LinkedIn and we'll see how it goes. And accidentally, I'm receiving a notification from Twitter, “Hey, Corey started tweeting about it.” And I was like, “Oh, my God, I'm having a heart attack.” But then I read the, you know—Corey: Oops.Maciej: [laugh]. Yeah. I read the, kind of, conclusion, and I was super happy. And again, thank you for that because this is actually when Cloudash kind of started rolling as a product and as a, kind of, business. So yeah, that was great.Corey: To give a little backstory and context here is, I write a whole bunch of serverless nonsense. I build API's Gateway, I hook them up to Lambda's Function, and then it sort of kind of works. Ish. From there, okay, I would try and track down what was going on because in a microservices land, everything becomes a murder mystery; you're trying to figure out what's broken, and things have exploded. And I became a paying customer of IOpipe. And then New Relic bought them. Well, crap.Then I became a paying customer of Epsagon. And they got acquired by Cisco, at which point I immediately congratulated the founders, who I know on a social basis, and then closed my account because I wanted to get out before Cisco ruins it because, Cisco. Then it was, what am I going to use next? And right around that time is when I stumbled across Cloudash. And it takes a different approach than any other entity in the space that I've seen because you are a native Mac desktop app. I believe your Mac only, but you seem to be Electron, so I could be way off base on that.Maciej: So, we're Linux as well right now and soon we'll be Windows as well. But yeah, so, right now is Mac OS and Linux. Yeah, that's correct. So, our approach is a little bit different.So, let me start by saying what's Cloudash? Like, Cloudash is a desktop app for, kind of, monitoring and troubleshooting serverless architectures services, like, serverless stuff in general. And the approach that we took is a little bit different because we are not web-based, we're desktop-based. And there's a couple of advantages of that approach. The first one is that, like, you don't need to share your data with us because we're not, kind of, downloading your metrics and logs to our back end and to process them, et cetera, et cetera. We are just using the credentials, the AWS profiles that you have defined on your computer, so nothing goes out of your AWS account.And I think this is, like, considering, like, from the security perspective, this is very crucial. You don't need to create a role that you give us access to or anything like that. You just use the stuff that you have on your desktop, and everything stays on your AWS account. So, nothing—we don't download it, we don't process it, we don't do anything from that. And that's one approach—well, that's the one advantage. The other advantage is, like, kind of, onboarding, as I kind of mentioned because we're using the AWS profiles that you have defined in your computer.Corey: Well, you're doing significantly more than that because I have a lot of different accounts configured different ways, and when I go to one of them that uses SSO, it automatically fires me off to the SSO login page if I haven't logged in that day for a 12 hour session—Maciej: Yes.Corey: —for things that have credentials stored locally, it uses those; and for things that are using role-chaining to use assuming roles from the things I have credentials for, and the things that I just do role assumption in, and it works flawlessly. It just works the way that most of my command-line tools do. I've never seen a desktop app that does this.Maciej: Yeah. So, we put a lot of effort into making sure that this works great because we know that, like, no one will use Cloudash if there's—like, not no one, but like, we're targeting, like, serverless teams, maybe, in enterprise companies, or serverless teams working on some startups. And in most cases, those teams or those engineers, they use SSO, or at least MFA, right? So, we have it covered. And as you said, like, it should be the onboarding part is really easy because you just pick your AWS profile, you just pick region, and just pick, right now, a CloudFormation stack because we get the information about your service based on CloudFormation stack. So yeah, we put a lot of effort in making sure that this works without any issues.Corey: There are some challenges to it that I saw while setting it up, and that's also sort of the nature of the fact you are, in fact, integrating with CloudWatch. For example, it's region specific. Well, what if I want to have an app that's multi-region? Well, you're going to have a bad time because doing [laugh] anything multi-region in AWS means you're going to have a bad time that gets particularly obnoxious and EC2 get to when you're doing something like Lambda@Edge, where, oh, where are the logs live; that's going to be in a CloudFront distribution in whatever region it winds up being accessed from. So, it comes down to what distribution endpoint or point of presence did that particular request go through, and it becomes this giant game of whack-a-mole. It's frustrating, and it's obnoxious, and it's also in no way your fault.Maciej: Yeah, I mean, we are at the beginning. Right now, it's the most straightforward, kind of pe—how people think about stacks of serverless. They're think in terms of regions because I think for us, regions, or replicated stacks, or things like that are not really popular yet. Maybe they will become—like, this is how AWS works as a whole, so it's not surprising that we're kind of following this path. I think my point is that our main goal, the ultimate goal, is to make monitoring, as I said, the troubleshooting serverless app as simple as possible.So, once we will hear from our customers, from our users that, “Hey, we would like to get a little bit better experience around regions,” we will definitely implement that because why not, right? And I think the whole point of Cloudash—and maybe we can go more deep into that later—is that we want to bring context into your metrics and logs. If you're seeing a, for example, X-Ray trace ID in your logs, you should be able with one click just see that the trace. It's not yet implemented in Cloudash, but we are having it in the backlog. But my point is that, like, there should be some journey when you're debugging stuff, and you shouldn't be just, like, left alone having, like, 20 tabs, Cloudash tabs open and trying to figure out where I was—like, where's the Lambda? Where's the API Gateway logs? Where are the CloudFront logs? And how I can kind of connect all of that? Because that's—it's an issue right now.Corey: Even what you've done so far is incredibly helpful compared to the baseline experience that folks will often have, where I can define a service that is comprised of a number of different functions—I have one set up right now that has seven functions in it—I grab any one of those things, and I can set how far the lookback is, when I look at that function, ranging from 5 minutes to 30 days. And it shows me at the top the metrics of invocations, the duration that the function runs for, and the number of errors. And then, in the same pane down below it, it shows the CloudWatch logs. So, “Oh, okay, great. I can drag and zoom into a specific timeframe, and I see just the things inside of that.”And I know this sounds like well, what's the hard part here? Yeah, except nothing else does it in an easy-to-use, discoverable way that just sort of hangs out here. Honestly, the biggest win for me is that I don't have to log in to the browser, navigate through some ridiculous other thing to track down what I'm talking about. It hangs out on my desktop all the time, and whether it's open or not, whenever I fire it up, it just works, basically, and I don't have to think about it. It reduces the friction from, “This thing is broken,” to, “Let me see what the logs say.”Very often I can go from not having it open at all to staring at the logs and having to wait a minute because there's some latency before the event happens and it hits CloudWatch logs itself. I'm pretty impressed with it, and I've been keeping an eye on what this thing is costing me. It is effectively nothing in terms of CloudWatch retrieval charges. Because it's not sitting there sucking all this data up all the time, for everything that's running. Like, we've all seen the monitoring system that winds up costing you more than it costs more than they charge you ancillary fees. This doesn't do that.I also—while we're talking about money, I want to make very clear—because disclaiming the direction the money flows in is always important—you haven't paid me a dime, ever, to my understanding. I am a paying customer at full price for this service, and I have been since I discovered it. And that is very much an intentional choice. You did not sponsor this podcast, you are not paying me to say nice things. We're talking because I legitimately adore this thing that you've built, and I want it to exist.Maciej: That's correct. And again, thank you for that. [laugh].Corey: It's true. You can buy my attention, but not my opinion. Now, to be clear, when I did that tweet thread, I did get the sense that this was something that you had built as sort of a side project, as a labor of love. It does not have VC behind it, of which I'm aware, and that's always going to, on some level, shade how I approach a service and how critical I'm going to be on it. Just because it's, yeah, if you've raised a couple 100 million dollars and your user experience is trash, I'm going to call that out.But if this is something where you just soft launched, yeah, I'm not going to be a jerk about weird usability bugs here. I might call it out as “Ooh, this is an area for improvement,” but not, “What jackwagon thought of this?” I am trying to be a kinder, gentler Corey in the new year. But at the same time, I also want to be very clear that there's room for improvement on everything. What surprised me the most about this is how well you nailed the user experience despite not having a full team of people doing UX research.Maciej: That was definitely a priority. So, maybe a little bit of history. So, I started working on Cloudash, I think it was April… 2019. I think? Yeah. It's 2021 right now. Or we're 2022. [unintelligible 00:11:33].Corey: Yeah. 2022, now. I—Maciej: I'm sorry. [laugh].Corey: —I've been screwing that up every time I write the dates myself, I'm with you.Maciej: [laugh]. Okay, so I started working on Cloudash, in 2020, April 2020.Corey: There we go.Maciej: So, after eight months, I released some beta, like, free; you could download it from GitHub. Like, you can still download on GitHub, but at that time, there was no license, you didn't have to buy a license to run it. So, it was, like, very early, like, 0.3 version that was working, but sort of, like, [unintelligible 00:12:00] working. There were some bugs.And that was the first time that I tweeted about it on Twitter. It gets some attention, but, like, some people started using it. I get some feedback, very initial feedback. And I was like, every time I open Cloudash, I get the sense that, like, this is useful. I'm talking about my own tool, but like, [laugh] that's the thing.So, further in the history. So, I'm kind of service engineer by my own. I am a software engineer, I started focusing on serverless, in, like, 2015, 2016. I was working for Serverless Inc. as an early employee.I was then working as an engineering manager for a couple of companies. I work as an engineering manager right now at Stedi; we're also, like, fully serverless. So I, kind of, trying to fix my own issues with serverless, or trying to improve the whole experience around serverless in AWS. So, that's the main purpose why we're building Cloudash: Because we want to improve the experience. And one use case I'm often mentioning is that, let's say that you're kind of on duty. Like, so in the middle of night PagerDuty is calling you, so you need to figure out what's going on with your Lambda or API Gateway.Corey: Yes. PagerDuty, the original [Call of Duty: Nagios 00:13:04]. “It's two in the morning; who is it?” “It's PagerDuty. Wake up, jackass.” Yeah. We all had those moments.Maciej: Exactly. So, the PagerDuty is calling you and you're, kind of, in the middle of night, you're not sure what's going on. So, the kind of thing that we want to optimize is from waking up into understanding what's going on with your serverless stuff should be minimized. And that's the purpose of Cloudash as well. So, you should just run one tool, and you should immediately see what's going on. And that's the purpose.And probably with one or two clicks, you should see the logs responsible, for example, in your Lambda. Again, like that's exactly what we want to cover, that was the initial thing that we want to cover, to kind of minimize the time you spent on troubleshooting serverless apps. Because as we all know, kind of, the longer it's down, the less money you make, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? 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Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: One of the things that I appreciate about this is that I have something like five different microservices now that power my newsletter production pipeline every week. And periodically, I'll make a change and something breaks because testing is something that I should really get around to one of these days, but when I'm the only customer, cool. Doesn't really matter until suddenly I'm trying to write something and it doesn't work. Great. Time to go diving in, and always I'm never in my best frame of mind for that because I'm thinking about writing for humans not writing for computers. And that becomes a challenge.And okay, how do I get to the figuring out exactly what is broken this time? Regression testing: It really should be a thing more than it has been for me.Maciej: You should write those tests. [laugh].Corey: Yeah. And then I fire this up, and okay, great. Which sub-service is it? Great. Okay, what happened in the last five minutes on that service? Oh, okay, it says it failed successfully in the logs. Okay, that's on me. I can't really blame you for that. But all right.And then it's a matter of adding more [print or 00:14:54] debug statements, and understanding what the hell is going on, mostly that I'm bad at programming. And then it just sort of works from there. It's a lot easier to, I guess, to reason about this from my perspective than it is to go through the CloudWatch dashboards, where it's okay, here's a whole bunch of metrics on different graphs, most of which you don't actually care about—as opposed to unified view that you offer—and then “Oh, you want to look at logs, that's a whole separate sub-service. That's a different service team, obviously, so go open that up in another browser.” And I'm sitting here going, “I don't know who designed this, but are there any windows in their house? My God.”It's just the saddest thing I can possibly experience when I'm in the middle of trying to troubleshoot. Let's be clear, when I'm troubleshooting, I am in no mood to be charitable to anyone or anything, so that's probably unfair to those teams. But by the same token, it's intensely frustrating when I keep smacking into limitations that get in my way while I'm just trying to get the thing up and running again.Maciej: As you mentioned about UX that, like, we've spent a lot of time thinking about the UX, trying different approaches, trying to understand which metrics are the most important. And as we all know, kind of, serverless simplifies a lot of stuff, and there's, like, way less metrics that you need to look into when something is happening, but we want to make sure that the stuff that we show—which is duration errors, and p95—are probably the most important in most cases, so like, covering most of this stuff. So sorry, I didn't mention that before; it was very important from the very beginning. And also, like, literally, I spent a lot of time, like, working on the colors, which sounds funny, [laugh] but I wanted to get them right. We're not yet working on dark mode, but maybe soon.Anyways, the visual part, it's always close to my heart, so we spent a lot of time going back to what just said. So, definitely the experience around using CloudWatch right now, and CloudWatch logs, CloudWatch metrics, is not really tailored for any specific use case because they have to be generic, right? Because AWS has, like, I don't know, like, 300, or whatever number of services, probably half of them producing logs—maybe not half, maybe—Corey: We shouldn't name a number because they'll release five more between now and when this publishes in 20 minutes.Maciej: [laugh]. So, CloudWatch has to be generic. What we want to do with Cloudash is to take those generic tools—because we use, of course, CloudWatch logs, CloudWatch metrics, we fetch data from them—but make the visual part more tailored for specific use case—in our case, it's the serverless use case—and make sure that it's really, kind of—it shows only the stuff that you need to see, not everything else. So again, like that's the main purpose. And then one more thing, we—like this is also some kind of measurement of success, we want to reduce number of tabs that you need to have open in your browser when you're dealing with CloudWatch. So, we tried to put most important stuff in one view so you don't need to flip between tabs, as you usually do when try to under some kind of broader scope, or broader context of your, you know, error in Lambda.Corey: What inspired you to do this as a desktop application? Because a lot of companies are doing similar things, as SaaS, as webapps. And I have to—as someone who yourself—you're a self-described serverless engineer—it seems to me that building a webapp is sort of like the common description use case of a lot of serverless stuff. And you're sitting here saying, “Nope, it's desktop app time.” Which again, I'm super glad you did. It's exactly what I was looking for. How do you get here?Maciej: I'd been thinking about both kinds of types of apps. So like, definitely webapp was the initial idea how to build something, it was the webapp. Because as you said, like, that's the default mode. Like, we are thinking webapp; like, let's build a webapp because I'm an engineer, right? There is some inspiration coming from Dynobase, which was made by a friend [unintelligible 00:18:55] who also lives in Poland—I didn't mention that; we're based in [Poznań 00:18:58], Poland.And when I started thinking about it, there's a lot of benefits of using this approach. The biggest benefit, as I mentioned, is security; and the second benefit is just most, like, cost-effective because we don't need to run in the backend, right? We don't need to download all your metrics, all your logs. We I think, like, let's think about it, like, from the perspective. Listen, so everyone in the company to start working, they have to download all of your stuff from your AWS account. Like, that sounds insane because you don't need all of that stuff elsewhere.Corey: Store multiple copies of it. Yeah I, generally when I'm looking at this, I care about the last five to ten minutes.Maciej: Exactly.Corey: I don't—Maciej: Exactly.Corey: —really care what happened three-and-a-half years ago on this function. Almost always. But occasionally I want to look back at, “Oh, this has been breaking. How long has it been that way?” But I already have that in the AWS environment unless I've done the right thing and turned on, you know, log expiry.Maciej: Exactly. So, this is a lot of, like, I don't want to be, like, you know, mean to anyone but like, that's a lot of waste. Like, that's a lot of waste of compute power because you need to download it; of cost because you need to get this data out of AWS, which you need to pay for, you know, get metric data and stuff like this. So, you need to—Corey: And almost all of its—what is it? Write once, read never. Because it's, you don't generally look at these things.Maciej: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.Corey: And so much of this, too, for every invocation I have, even though it's low traffic stuff, it's the start with a request ID and what version is running, it tells me ‘latest.' Helpful. A single line of comment in this case says ‘200.' Why it says that, I couldn't tell you. And then it says ‘End request ID.' The end.Now, there's no way to turn that off unless you disabled the ability to write to CloudWatch logs in the function, but ingest on that cost 50 cents a gigabyte, so okay, I guess that's AWS's money-making scam of the year. Good for them. But there's so much of that, it's like looking at—like, when things are working, it's like looking at a low traffic site that's behind a load balancer, where there's a whole—you have gigabytes, in some cases, of load balancer—of web server logs on the thing that's sitting in your auto-scaling group. And those logs are just load balancer health checks. 98% of it is just that.Same type of problem here, I don't care about that, I don't want to pay to store it, I certainly don't want to pay to store it twice. I get it, that makes an awful lot of sense. It also makes your security job a hell of a lot easier because you're not sitting on a whole bunch of confidential data from other people. Because, “Well, it's just logs. What could possibly be confidential in there?” “Oh, my sweet summer child, have you seen some of the crap people put in logs?”Maciej: I've seen many things in logs. I don't want to mention them. But anyways—and also, you know, like, usually when you gave access to your AWS account, it can ruin you. You know, like, there might be a lot of—like, you need to really trust the company to give access to your AWS account. Of course, in most cases, the roles are scoped to, you know, only CloudWatch stuff, actions, et cetera, et cetera, but you know, like, there are some situations in which something may not be properly provisioned. And then you give access to everything.Corey: And you can get an awful lot of data you wouldn't necessarily want out of that stuff. Give me just the PDF printout of last month's bill for a lot of environments, and I can tell you disturbing levels of detail about what your architecture is, just because when you—you can infer an awful lot.Maciej: Yeah.Corey: Yeah, I hear you. It makes your security story super straightforward.Maciej: Yeah, exactly. So, I think just repeat my, like, the some inspiration. And then when I started thinking about Cloudash, like, definitely one of the inspiration was Dynobase, from the, kind of, GUI for, like, more powerful UI for DynamoDB. So, if you're interested in that stuff, you can also check this out.Corey: Oh, yeah, I've been a big fan of that, too. That'll be a separate discussion on a different episode, for sure.Maciej: [laugh]. Yeah.Corey: But looking at all of this, looking at the approach of, the only real concern—well, not even a concern. The only real challenge I have with it for my use case is that when I'm on the road, the only thing that I bring with me for a computer is my iPad Pro. I'm not suggesting by any means that you should build this as a new an iPad app; that strikes me as, like, 15 levels of obnoxious. But it does mean that sometimes I still have to go diving into the CloudWatch console when I'm not home. Which, you know, without this, without Cloudash, that's what I was doing originally anyway.Maciej: You're the only person that requested that. And we will put that into backlog, and we will get to that at some point. [laugh].Corey: No, no, no. Smart question is to offer me a specific enterprise tier pricing—.Maciej: Oh, okay. [laugh].Corey: —that is eye-poppingly high. It's like, “Hey, if you want a subsidize feature development, we're thrilled to empower that.” But—Maciej: [laugh]. Yeah, yeah. To be honest, I like that would be hard to write [unintelligible 00:23:33] implement as iPad app, or iPhone app, or whatever because then, like, what's the story behind? Like, how can I get the credentials, right? It's not possible.Corey: Yeah, you'd have to have some fun with that. There are a couple of ways I can think of offhand, but then that turns into a sandboxing issue, and it becomes something where you have to store credentials locally, regardless, even if they're ephemeral. And that's not great. Maybe turn it into a webapp someday or something. Who knows.What I also appreciate is that we had a conversation when you first launched, and I wound up basically going on a Zoom call with you and more or less tearing apart everything you've built—and ideally constructive way—but looking at a lot of the things you've changed in your website, you listened to an awful lot of feedback. You doubled your pricing, for example. Used to be ten bucks a month; now you're twenty. Great. I'm a big believer in charging more.You absolutely add that kind of value because it's, “Well, twenty bucks a month for a desktop app. That sounds crappy.” It's, “Yeah, jackwagon, what's your time worth?” I was spending seven bucks a month in serverless charges, and 120 or 130 a month for Epsagon, and I was thrilled to pieces to be doing it because the value I got from being able to quickly diagnose what the hell was going on far outstripped what the actual cost of doing these things. Don't fall into the trap of assuming that well, I shouldn't pay for software. I can just do it myself. Your time is never free. People think it is, but it's not.Maciej: That's true. The original price of $9.99, I think that was the price was the launch promo. After some time, we've decided—and after adding more features: API Gateway support—we've decided that this is, like, solving way more problems, so like, you should probably pay a little bit more for that. But you're kind of lucky because you subscribed to it when it was 9.99, and this will be your kind of prize for the end of, you know—Corey: Well, I'm going to argue with you after the show to raise the price on mine, just because it's true. It's the—you want to support the things that you want to exist in the world. I also like the fact that you offered an annual plan because I will go weeks without ever opening the app. And that doesn't mean it isn't adding value. It's that oh, yeah, I will need that now that I'm hitting these issues again.And if I'm paying on a monthly basis, and it shows up with a, “Oh, you got charged again.” “Well, I didn't use it this month; I should cancel.” And [unintelligible 00:25:44] to an awful lot of subscriber churn. But in the course of a year, if I don't have at least one instance in which case, wow, that ten minute span justified the entire $200 annual price tag, then, yeah, you built the wrong thing or it's not for me, but I can think of three incidents so far since I started using it in the past four months that have led to that being worth everything you will charge me a year, and then some, just because it made it so clear what was breaking.Maciej: So, in that regard, we are also thinking about the team licenses, that's definitely on the roadmap. There will be some changes to that. And we definitely working on more and more features. And if we're—like, the roadmap is mostly about supporting more and more AWS services, so right now it's Lambda, API Gateway, we're definitely thinking about SQS, SNS, to get some sense how your messages are going through, probably something, like, DynamoDB metrics. And this is all kind of serverless, but why not going wider? Like, why not going to Fargate? Like, Fargate is theoretically serverless, but you know, like, it's serverless on—Corey: It's serverless with a giant asterisk next to it.Maciej: Yeah, [laugh] exactly. So, but why not? Like, it's exactly the same thing in terms of, there is some user flow, there is some user journey, when you want to debug something. You want to go from API Gateway, maybe to the container to see, I don't know, like, DynamoDB metric or something like that, so it should be all easy. And this is definitely something.Later, why not EC2 metrics? Like, it would be a little bit harder. But I'm just saying, like, first thing here is that you are not, like, at this point, we are serverless, but once we cover serverless, why not going wider? Why not supporting more and more services and just making sure that all those use cases are correctly modeled with the UI and UX, et cetera?Corey: That's going to be an interesting challenge, just because that feels like what a lot of the SaaS monitoring and observability tooling is done. And then you fire this thing up, and it looks an awful lot like the AWS console. And it's, “Yeah, I just want to look at this one application that doesn't use any of the rest of those things.” Again, I have full faith and confidence in your ability to pull this off. You clearly have done that well based upon what we've seen so far. I just wonder how you're going to wind up tackling that challenge when you get there.Maciej: And maybe not EC2. Maybe I went too far. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, honestly, even EC2-land, it feels like that is more or less a solved problem. If you want to treat it as a bunch of EC2, you can use Nagios. It's fine.Maciej: Yeah, totally.Corey: There are tools that have solved that problem. But not much that I've seen has solved the serverless piece the way that I want it solved. You have.Maciej: So, it's definitely a long road to make sure that the serverless—and by serverless, I mean serverless how AWS understands serverless, so including Fargate, for example. So, there's a lot of stuff that we can improve. It's a lot of stuff that can make easier with Cloudash than it is with CloudWatch, just staying inside serverless, it will take us a lot of time to make sure that is all correct. And correctly modeled, correctly designed, et cetera. So yeah, I went too far with EC2 sorry.Corey: Exactly. That's okay. We all go too far with EC2, I assure you.Maciej: Sorry everyone using EC2 instances. [laugh].Corey: If people want to kick the tires on it, where can they find it?Maciej: They can find it on cloudash.dev.Corey: One D in the middle. That one throws me sometimes.Maciej: One D. Actually, after talking to you, we have a double-D domain as well, so we can also try ‘Clouddash' with double-D. [laugh].Corey: Excellent, excellent. Okay, that is fantastic. Because I keep trying to put the double-D in when I'm typing it in my search tool on my desktop, and it doesn't show up. And it's like, “What the—oh, right.” But yeah, we'll get there one of these days.Maciej: Only the domain. It's only the domain. You will be redirected to single-D.Corey: Exactly.Maciej: [laugh].Corey: We'll have to expand later; I'll finance the feature request there. It'll go well. If people want to learn more about what you have to think about these things, where else can they find you?Maciej: On Twitter, and my Twitter handle is @mthenw. M-then-W, which is M-T-H—mthenw. And my co-founder @tlakomy. You can probably add that to [show notes 00:29:35]. [laugh].Corey: Oh, I certainly will. It's fine, yeah. Here's a whole bunch of letters. I hear you. My Twitter handle used to be my amateur radio callsign. It turns out most people don't think like that. And yeah, it's become an iterative learning process. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today and for building this thing. I really appreciate both of them.Maciej: Thank you for having me here. I encourage everyone to visit cloudash.dev, if you have any feature requests, any questions just send us an email at hello@cloudash.dev, or just go to GitHub repository in the issues; just create an issue, describe what you want and we can talk about it.We are always happy to help. The main purpose, the ultimate goal of Cloudash is to make the serverless engineer's life easier, on very high level. And on a little bit lower level, just to make, you know, troubleshooting and debugging serverless apps easier.Corey: Well, from my perspective, you've succeeded.Maciej: Thank you.Corey: Thank you. Maciej Winnicki, founder of Cloudash. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me exactly why I'm wrong for using an iPad do these things, but not being able to send it because you didn't find a good way to store the credentials.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Today's podcast comes from Daniel 6. Introduction: I've known the story of Daniel and the lion's den since I was a kid in Sunday School classes, but I never really considered before what Daniel was thinking at the time. As I wrote some of these retellings, it was obvious that the heroes were actually terrified and full of doubts, like Gideon. Samson wasn't at all fearful, but he'd placed his confidence in himself, rather than in God. It was only very rare individuals that seemed to be completely confident in the Lord. David and Jonathan clearly had this mentality, because the things they said to those around them just before their exploits revealed their thoughts. With Daniel, it's not quite so clear, until you put this event in chronological context with the rest of the book of Daniel.    The first half of the book of Daniel is historical, telling events that transpired during Daniel's lifetime as the kingdom changed rulership. The second half, from chapter 7 through 12, is prophetic, in which Daniel is treated to a series of profound visions which encompass the “silent” years of the Old Testament through the coming of Christ, and then apocalyptic visions that harmonize with John's account in Revelation. We're told in Daniel 5:31 and 6:1 that this episode of the lion's den occurred during the reign of King Darius, and historians say he only reigned for two years. We also know from Daniel 9:2 that Darius was king during the time that Daniel received his famous seventy weeks prophecy, so these two events must have occurred relatively close to one another in time. In the seventy weeks prophecy, Gabriel appeared and helped Daniel to understand that while Jeremiah's prediction of seventy years of captivity (Jeremiah 25:11-12) was nearly over for Israel, there was a deeper meaning for the seventy years as well. There would also be seventy weeks of years, or 490 years, from the time of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, until the end of the age. It would be sixty-nine weeks of years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the Messiah would come (and according to “The Coming Prince” by Sir Robert Anderson, from the time Nehemiah was sent to rebuild the walls of the city, sixty-nine weeks of years, where a year in the calendar of the day was 360 days, would work out to 173,880 days. This is to the day when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey on Palm Sunday, proclaiming himself to be king, Luke 19:28-44.) That last week of years, or the last seven years, will be the end of the age—and the rest of Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy describes the antichrist, the covenant with Israel that begins those seven years, and the abomination of desolation 3.5 years in, which will initiate the last 3.5 years of tribulation. Daniel's prophecy here doesn't indicate that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, though some scholars believe that was because there didn't have to be a gap: had the Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah when he rode in on Palm Sunday, the first and the second coming might have been one and the same. This might have been why Jesus wept as he rode into town (Luke 19:41-44). As it was, there is a pause in Daniel's timeline “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25).    In my retelling, therefore, I imagined how full Daniel's mind must have been with such wonderful revelations. He'd seen and spoken with God's messenger, not once, but twice (Gabriel also came to him in Daniel 8:16). He'd been in captivity nearly all his life, and now in his eighties, he realized that the time drew near for his people to return to Jerusalem. His prayer in Daniel 9:4-19 is so impassioned, one can almost picture him weeping as he contends for their release. Gabriel told him that he was greatly beloved (Daniel 9:23), and told him that not only did the time draw near for his people's release, but also showed him God's entire plan for history.    Meanwhile, Darius wanted to promote Daniel because, like Pharaoh had said of Joseph, he had the spirit of God's wisdom upon him (Daniel 6:3). As King Solomon wrote, a man who excels in his work will stand before kings, and not obscure men (Proverbs 22:29). Daniel did his work with excellence, but he had no ambitions in Persia. His heart was clearly with his people, his homeland, and God's plans for the earth. So when the other governors and satraps conspired against him, I imagine that Daniel almost ignored them. He had far bigger things on his mind. He probably heard the threat, knew it was petty jealousy, proceeded about his business, and forgot about it.   It was the Persian custom that a law sealed by the king could not be changed (Daniel 6:15), which was the same issue Esther ran into in her day. Clearly Darius realized that his satraps and governors had convinced him to sign such a law just to entrap Daniel. Darius wanted to rescue Daniel and tried to find a loophole (Daniel 6:14), but even he couldn't do it, which was what his officials had counted upon. Daniel's devotion to the Lord had made such an impression on Darius by this point that when Daniel was cast into the lion's den, Darius declared, “Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you” (Daniel 6:16). Even this pagan king believed God would save Daniel! He also loved Daniel so well that he didn't sleep that night, and rose first thing in the morning to check on Daniel and see if God had indeed delivered him. If he had been certain to find Daniel dead, he presumably wouldn't have gone to check.    What must it have been like for Daniel to spend the night in that pit? Did he actually see the angel that he later told Darius had shut the lions' mouths? I don't see why not; he'd seen Gabriel at least twice before by this time. If Daniel's mindset was what I imagine it might have been, I suspect that he would have slept that night, just as Jesus did on the boat during the storm (Matthew 8:24, Mark 4:38, Luke 8:23). That's the picture of the perfect peace of one whose mind is stayed on the Lord because he trusts in Him (Isaiah 26:3). Daniel, I think, embodied this peace. That's why he inspired even Darius with such confidence on his behalf.   When the king found Daniel alive, he then did to the conspirators what they had intended to do to Daniel. The concept of reaping what one sows is well established in scripture (Luke 6:38, Galatians 6:7, Proverbs 26:27). The fact that the lions tore them apart before they even hit the bottom of the pit proves that they were both vicious and hungry; they just hadn't been able to touch Daniel. It seems awfully harsh to punish the conspirators' wives and children for crimes they did not commit, and this is not God's way (Deuteronomy 24:16, Jeremiah 31:30). But God was not the one to mete out judgment against Daniel's accusers; Darius was.    Fictional Retelling:    I lived almost my entire life in exile—in the land that was Babylon for the majority of my life, and then became Persia in my old age. I was constantly surrounded by political intrigue, though most of the time, it did not concern me. My dominant thoughts lay elsewhere. Though I'd left there as a boy, my heart was still in Jerusalem: the city of my father David. It had been so many years since I'd seen it that the place had taken on a mythical quality in my imagination, and I commingled the concept of Jerusalem with that of the throne room of heaven. Every day, when my duties as one of the governors over the kingdom of Persia did not otherwise compel me, I pored over the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel for some clue of the Lord's plans for His people. After I read, I opened the windows of the upper room of my home so that the sunlight would stream in; in my mind's eye, the sunlight was the radiance of the Lord Himself upon his throne, emanating from Jerusalem, His city. I faced Jerusalem and I prayed for wisdom, for repentance on behalf of my wayward people, and for mercy. When I shifted my heavenly focus down to the here and now, I executed my duties as governor with the wisdom the Lord gave me. King Darius set forty provinces, led by forty satraps, under each of his three governors. My provinces prospered effortlessly—of course. I had the wisdom of the Lord. It was clear that King Darius recognized the Lord's influence and admired me above all of the other governors and satraps, and I knew he considered putting me over the entire realm because of this. This was fine. I had no aspirations at my age. My heart and soul belonged to my own people and nation; I only labored for this one because for now, Darius was my king, and integrity demanded that I do the work he set before me to the best of my ability. I was vaguely aware that my more ambitious peers and the satraps under them envied me. I could do nothing about this though, and regarded their esteem lightly anyway. So I paid it little attention.  Instead, I spent my days swept up in visions and prophecy. One morning when reading the writings of the prophet Jeremiah, his words leapt off the scroll to me that the time of Jerusalem's desolations was to be seventy years.  Sixty-nine years had passed.  I tore my robes and put on sackcloth, deliberately sprinkling the floor of my upper room with ashes to symbolize repentance on behalf of my people, and determined to fast before the Lord for however long it took. Then I threw open my windows and fell to my knees, praying toward Jerusalem with such fervor that it was as though time and space fell away. I do not know how much time passed before I felt a hand on my shoulder. I was already so worked up that I jumped and my eyes flew open. The man I beheld was one I had met once before: the angel Gabriel. He was much larger and more powerfully built than the greatest of the Persian warriors, radiant with light and dressed in gleaming white.  He told me I was greatly beloved. He also showed me that there was a deeper meaning to Jeremiah's prophecy than what I had first supposed. Yes, there would be seventy years until my people could return to Jerusalem. But there would also be seventy weeks of years from the time of Jerusalem's reconstruction to the end of the age, and sixty-nine weeks of years from the reconstruction to the appearance of the Messiah.  I floated after this, so buoyant with happiness and overwhelmed with the implications of Gabriel's message that the details of the concrete world around me paled in comparison. So when I heard that the other governors and satraps had convinced Darius to sign into law the ridiculous order that for thirty days, anyone caught praying to any god or man except to him should be cast into the lion's den, I hardly considered it. I would not have heeded the rule at any time, but especially not now. The Lord had shown me such wonderful and marvelous things, so much larger than myself and my own life. I saw myself as a representative for my people, and Gabriel's words had confirmed this to me. We were on the cusp of the breakthrough I had awaited all my life… would I be stymied by fear, due to the petty jealousy of those who fancied themselves my political rivals? By no means!  I went home that very day and threw open the windows of my upper room as I always did. Then I knelt down and prayed to the Lord. I prayed for the end of my people's captivity. I envisioned my own return to Jerusalem, the city of my fathers. I prayed for my people 483 years from now, when Messiah the Prince would be revealed—oh! What a day that would be! May the people of that day know and recognize and rejoice at the appearance of their hope and redemption!  Two more times that day I did the same, giving thanks to God for hearing my prayers and for esteeming me so well that He was pleased to reveal to me what would come, long after my time. Both the second and third times I prayed that day, I glanced down and saw the assembly of governors and satraps on the street below, watching me, pointing, and whispering to one another.  “Oh Lord,” I prayed when I saw them, “as King Solomon wrote, ‘let he who digs a pit fall into it, and he who rolls a stone have it roll back on him.'” Then I went on with my prayers, thanksgiving, and supplications. I forgot all about the men clearly conspiring against me, until I heard a pounding upon my door at nightfall. It was insistent.  “Daniel!” shouted a voice I recognized as Kasper's, one of the other governors of the realm. I could tell he was not alone, but that he was with a company—probably the very ones who had seen me praying that day. I could make out the voice of Bijan, one of the most hateful of Darius's satraps, among them. “Open up, by decree of the king!”  Instinctively and though my window was shut just then, I glanced in the direction of Jerusalem, since in my mind, that was the direction of God's throne. More of Solomon's words came back to me unbidden: Though they join forces, the wicked will not go unpunished, but the posterity of the righteous will be delivered. I wrapped my nightclothes in my cloak and opened the door. Perhaps six pairs of hands grabbed me at once, and dragged me out of my house so forcefully that I stumbled, old man that I was.  “Daniel!” Kasper's voice rose above the din, even as they dragged me toward the palace, “you have not shown due regard for the king! You were seen today petitioning and praying to your God, against the royal decree. You knew the penalty for this was death by lions. We take you now to meet your fate!”  I tripped and nearly fell numerous times on the short walk to the palace dungeons, had it not been for the hands upon my robes. I should have been terrified, and entirely in this moment. Yet somehow, I felt insulated, almost as if I were watching the events transpire against someone else. I kept thinking of my friends Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who, many years ago, had defied a similar order from King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. I had been traveling on the king's business at the time. When I returned and heard the story of their supernatural deliverance, I'd been almost envious. I so wished I'd been there with them, to have seen the Lord face to face! What a story!  Now, almost sixty years later, here was my chance. King Darius met me and my entourage at the entrance to the palace dungeons, looking frantic and disheveled.  “Daniel—!” he moaned, his voice thick with grief. “I did everything I could to deliver you, but the decree is iron-clad!”  “I know you did,” I smiled at the king tenderly, and reached out a hand to his shoulder. It was a more familiar gesture than I perhaps would have attempted under any other circumstance, but I felt a rush of affection for him in his obvious distress. He was too inexperienced a ruler to have understood how his governors and satraps had played him. He had not known the extent of the political machinations of his court when he'd signed that decree, though he knew now. “Your God, to whom you are so loyal, is going to get you out of this!” Darius suddenly declared.  I blinked at him in amazement, then beamed, even as the satraps moved the stone off of the mouth of the lion's den. I knew this, but to hear it from the mouth of a pagan king!  “You are already much closer to Him than you realize,” I told the king. “I'll see you in the morning—”  My words were cut off by a rough thrust from the hands of my accusers, shoving me toward the open pit. I stumbled, and then fell in headlong, twisting in the air. I landed hard on my palms and knees, sending jolts of searing pain up to my wrists, shoulders, knees, and hips. I gasped, but then tested my bones and joints to make sure nothing was broken. Darius let out a strangled sob up above, as the satraps and governors heaved the stone back in place. Just before it sealed, I caught a glimpse of the five great shaggy beasts pacing and growling around me.  Then there was utter darkness.  I closed my eyes and opened them again, and could tell no difference. The padding of great paws picked up their pace, and the growling turned to roars, one after the other, like a great cacophonous symphony. I had the sense that the lions were frustrated by the prey in their very midst, and yet they could not seem to get at it.  “Let me see you, Lord,” I prayed, yawning with sudden weariness as I lay down on the floor of the pit. “I know you're here…”  Suddenly the pit filled with an otherworldly glow. Gabriel circled around me, bearing a sword in each hand. He whipped it with dazzling speed each time one of the great cats got too close. They, in turn, backed off, but roared with fury.  “Go to sleep, Daniel,” Gabriel told me, and flashed me a grin. “You might as well. I'm going to be up all night, anyway.”  I laughed, and the vision faded until all was complete darkness again. I tuned out the lions' roars, though I think they eventually must have given up and fallen silent. I couldn't say for sure. I drifted off fairly soon after that.  “Daniel!”  I gasped awake, squinting against the light streaming in from the top of the now open pit. I perceived a silhouette up above, though all I could see was the disheveled hair sticking out in all directions. I recognized the voice as the king's though. He sounded nearly as anxious as he had the night before. “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve so loyally, saved you from the lions?” I sat up, glancing around the pit to see the great cats fast asleep around me, though they stirred now as I did from the light and the noise. I grinned at the king, who began to come into focus as I gazed up at him.  “O king, live forever!” I called. “My God sent his angel, who closed the mouths of the lions so that they would not hurt me. I've been found innocent before God and also before you, O king. I've done nothing to harm you.”  Darius let out a shout of glee, clapping his hands together. He stood up out of my view, and I could neither see nor quite hear what he did next, but I heard him speaking to someone. The next thing I knew, a thick rope with a loop at the bottom of it descended into the pit, and I saw two strong servants at the top, ready to pull me out. Two of the lions saw the commotion, got to their feet, and began to snarl and pace again.  “Hurry!” cried one of the servants, glancing at the lions with alarm, just as one of the lions let out an almighty roar.  “Oh, don't worry,” I told them with a wave of my hand, as I stepped into the loop and grabbed on to the rope up above. “They're just frustrated. They can't even get close to me.”  I wasn't sure if the servants even heard this, as they immediately began to heave me up and out. Once I was well out of the way, the lions paced to the place where I had been lying, roaring up at me and swiping the air with their claws. The edge of one claw sliced clean through the bottom of my robe, just as one servant let go of the robe to grab me around my waist. I twisted to sit down at the top of the pit and edge away.  “Daniel!” King Darius forgot his royal position and threw his arms around my neck, weeping with relief. Surprised, I patted his shoulders, and then he pulled me back to inspect me. “You are truly unharmed?”  “Truly, my king,” I nodded, wiping the last of the sleep from my eyes as I yawned.  “Did—you sleep in there?” he demanded, incredulous. Then he added, almost accusing, “I didn't even sleep last night! I rushed here at first light to see how you fared!”  I smiled at the king fondly. “My king honors me greatly with his concern,” I said, and shrugged. “I saw no reason to fear the lions. Besides, I was tired.”  The servants behind King Darius let out an incredulous snort of laughter at this, but stifled it when the king whipped around to glare at them. One of the servants clamped a hand over his mouth, as a slow answering smile spread across Darius's face. Then the king started to laugh too. Before I knew it, the servants were doubled over, as was the king, tears running down his face.  Nervous relief? I thought as I watched them in wonder, totally missing the humor. When the king recovered himself, his expression grew suddenly fierce. He told his servants, “Tell my royal guard to seize Daniel's accusers, the other two governors, the complicit satraps, and their families. Bring them here at once, before the hour has passed!”  I felt a wave of foreboding and sympathy, suspecting I knew what the king intended to do to them for their treachery. Darius got to his feet, and I followed suit. He confirmed my fears when asked me, his expression dark, “Would you like to watch, Daniel?”  I closed my eyes and shook my head. “No, my king.”  “You are a better man than I, then,” said King Darius. “I rejoice at the destruction of my enemies. And your enemies have now become mine. You are dismissed.”  I bowed my head and made my way alone back to my home. At a distance, I saw Kasper, his wife and children struggling against the rough hands of the king's royal guard. His wife wept and begged. The children, I could tell, did not understand what was going on, but knew something was wrong. They cried because their mother did. Though we were far away, Kasper's eyes locked with mine, frantic with fear. A wave of nausea rolled over me.  “O God, may it be quick and painless,” I prayed. “I commend the souls of the innocents to Your mercy.”  I heard later that my prayers were answered. The hungry, frustrated lions overpowered all those thrown into the den, killing them instantly before they even hit the bottom.  The same messenger informed me that the king had now officially placed me above the entire realm. I had assumed this would be the case, since the other two governors had perished. The news brought me sorrow—not because I minded the position, but I had never sought it, either. All this had transpired because the governors had not wanted to relinquish their power to me. Instead of merely their power, they had lost their lives, and those of their families too.  That evening, I heard the news that King Darius had sent out a royal decree to every corner of his kingdom, which read, “Peace to you! Abundant peace! I decree that Daniel's God shall be worshiped and feared in all parts of my kingdom. He is the living God, world without end. His kingdom never falls. His rule continues eternally. He is a savior and rescuer. He performs astonishing miracles in heaven and on earth. He saved Daniel from the power of the lions.” I took the written decree to the upper room of my home, and laid it before the Lord. I thanked Him for rescuing me. I thanked Him for humbling and saving King Nebuchadnezzar all those years ago, when he returned to his right mind and served the Lord for the rest of His days. I thanked him that King Darius now honored Him too. I thought of Jonah's ministry to Nineveh, and how they too had repented. I thanked the Lord that He did not show favoritism; He wanted to save the Jew and the Gentile alike, the rich and the poor, the ruler and the peasant. I thanked Him that though I had been brought into Babylon as a captive, now like Joseph, I found myself favored by the king, and second in command of a pagan kingdom.  “You are faithful to honor Your servants who fear You, even in a land not our own,” I prayed.  Yet still, my heart was not here, in this foreign nation where I had lived most of my life. For all my power and prestige, I was but a sojourner; that was the great irony. I would serve the Lord where He had placed me to the best of my ability all of my days, and would try to represent Him well. But I would daily pray toward my true home, awaiting the day of our redemption.

Jennifer Burns is a southern California mom who spent years being a people pleaser and suppressing trauma before she decided to take her life back into her own hands. Today she is a healing artist, creating beautiful works of art with resin and healing crystals. On this week's episode, Jen shares her incredible healing journey and teaches us what healing crystals are and how they can be a very powerful tool in recovering from trauma.  Healing Art By Jen Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:00]: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here as always. We've got a guest episode today. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like I said that all the time. I definitely need to stop saying this, but I'm really excited to learn about today's topic, which is we're talking all things like crystals and things like that. Alyssa Scolari [00:49]: So, this has been such a hype, using your crystals and manifesting and things like that. But I'm really curious about, what does that all mean? It can sound very, very woo, woo. And it definitely turns some people off because they don't believe in it, but I definitely think there is something there. So, today, we are talking about that and I cannot wait to learn more. Alyssa Scolari [01:16]: And we have with us a very special guest, Jen Burns, who is a Southern California mom, wife, healer, artist and a trauma survivor. She's in the process of finishing up a book about her life, which has been a life of abandonment and adoption, and abuse and of course and most importantly, healing. Living a life that was created from a sea of survival, and then one day, she ended up rebirthing into an artist and a healer. Alyssa Scolari [01:49]: And I have had the pleasure of having some conversations with Jen in the past, and she is awesome. So, I'm really, really excited to have her on the show today. So, that being said, hi, Jen, welcome to the podcast. Jennifer Burns [02:04]: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Alyssa Scolari [02:08]: Thank you for being here. Jen is a dear, dear, dear friend of the podcast. She is an amazing, incredible woman who I truly would not know if it weren't for the podcast. So, thank you Light After Trauma for introducing me to Jen and her amazing talents because you are one talented woman. Jennifer Burns [02:33]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [02:37]: So, before we get into your talents, I guess, can you share a little bit about your backstory? I know that you wanted... you were very intentional about your decision to come on the show. So, there's a reason for that. Would you mind talking about that? Jennifer Burns [02:54]: Oh, I would love to share a bit of my story. Just a regular mom, right? I have three beautiful children. I'm a wife and unfortunately suffered a really traumatizing childhood, just filled with a lot of abuse, abandonment, adoption. It's a huge, long, very complicated story. I do have a book that's going to be coming out, and it'll be very detailed. Jennifer Burns [03:25]: But I just was fine, right? I was becoming my young adult self in my twenties and didn't date a lot because of my abuse and stumbled upon, met this great guy. And there, my life started, right? But what I didn't anticipate is my pure survival mode that I was in at the time made me find a partner that led me down the road where I attached all of my thoughts, opinions, desires, everything on him. Jennifer Burns [04:08]: And I became exactly what he wanted me to be. I'm a chameleon and I do this in every aspect of my life actually. And I didn't know it though. You don't really even know you're doing it. And so, here I am flying along in my life and I have this great guy and we have the greatest relationship. Jennifer Burns [04:31]: And I used to pride myself on, "Oh, we've been together 20 years, and we've never had a single solitary fight. We've never had a single solitary argument." And everybody was looking at me like, "That's not normal." And I was like, "Yeah, but that's because I'm so amazing." Right? We're so amazing as a couple, and I'm so agreeable. Jennifer Burns [04:52]: Well, anyways, so flash forward, I'm a mother of three children now and I don't know exactly what happened except 42 years old. This is 10 years ago now. I woke up one day, and I was like, "Who is that? Who is that woman in the mirror?" I didn't recognize her. I didn't feel like her. I had literally lost the core of me, but I didn't even know it. Right? I just woke up and it was awful. It was a terrible feeling. I thought I was going to have a complete and utter nervous breakdown. Jennifer Burns [05:30]: And so, I started to dive in. And I had been so busy with the husband, so busy with my children. I mean, threw myself in. I was the doting wife. I was the over-the-top mom. I ran PTA. I mean, I was everywhere and I was everything for everyone, right, but nothing to myself, nothing. And I completely lost who I was. And it was almost as if my bucket was full and it was completely running over. And I didn't even want this to happen, but I literally was falling apart. Jennifer Burns [06:11]: And I was confused because I had always been in such control of my life. And I knew exactly what I was doing and how I was doing it. And I was happy, but I thought I was happy, right? It's just I was in that mode of, "I'm everything to everyone." And this is how I got through my childhood is being positive and showing everyone, "I'm fine. I'm fine." And I, I was not fine. Jennifer Burns [06:38]: And so, I believe that after all the years, your body and the universe and everything works together and you get to a point where it's like, "Nope, you've avoided yourself too long. And now, it's time, whether you want to do this or not." Alyssa Scolari [06:56]: Yep. Whether you're are ready or not, here we come. Jennifer Burns [06:59]: Yeah. So, I began working on me a little bit. And then, that was super uncomfortable. And I didn't even know what I liked, disliked, thought, nothing, except I was just sad and I was lonely. And I didn't even know I was losing my marriage. My marriage was falling apart because here I am, right, this perfect wife. And all of the sudden, I'm like, "I don't think I like you anymore. No and no." And it was terrible, literally. Jennifer Burns [07:35]: My kids were always fine because I could always fake it for them, right? This is 10 years in now. Now, my kids are 24, 21, 13. And now they can... and we're all empaths. And so, they're looking at me and they're going, "Mom, I know you're not okay because I can feel it. What is going on?" Jennifer Burns [07:59]: So then, I had to start sharing with my own children, right, here is this perfect mom who was just doing everything and portraying this beautiful image of positivity. And now, I feel like absolute shit. I feel like crap, and I'm falling apart. I had to get so vulnerable with my children. Jennifer Burns [08:26]: And that was awful because in my experience, your family are not necessarily the nicest people in your life. And I was so afraid of them not loving me if they really knew who the real me was, this broken woman, but really girl, right, that had never been fixed. I had never gone to therapy for anything. I happened to be involved with a man that was, I don't know, didn't really buy into all that. Of course, we pick, right, the opposite. Jennifer Burns [09:03]: And so, anyway, I've had to fight and fight and fight. Turns out now, my kids are my number one fans. They support me more than anyone on this earth. They have continually loved me. And it's a little bit of a role reversal, right? I can be sad and unsure. And they're the ones going, "Mom, you got this. You're good. You're okay." So, it's been huge. Jennifer Burns [09:35]: And only up until recently things with my marriage are significantly better as well. It took him a long time to come around though and really let go of what I had created. I did it. It's all my fault. I'm the one that created this perfect marriage. Right? So, here, he thought, we've been together 31 years, for 21 of them, this is his wife. And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Nope, never mind. Don't want to be that woman anymore." Alyssa Scolari [10:08]: Yeah. I mean, you speak too. There's so much that's in there, right? Even just starting with this concept of, and you use this word that I use very, very often, which is becoming a chameleon. I use that so often when it comes to either talking about my own trauma recovery, talking with my clients, because that often is what a trauma response is. We become a chronic people pleaser. And we take the shape of whatever that we take on the shape. We take on the likes, the beliefs of those around us. Jennifer Burns [10:52]: Yeah, because it keeps us safe. It keeps us safe. We know how to work a room. Right? Alyssa Scolari [10:57]: Exactly. Jennifer Burns [10:57]: We know, "Oh, I have to do this." Alyssa Scolari [10:58]: We are the best at it. Jennifer Burns [11:00]: We really are. But you don't even know you're doing it, really. It's so natural. It's so second nature. Alyssa Scolari [11:06]: It's a survival mechanism. Jennifer Burns [11:08]: It is. And then, I had to question, "Am I phony? Am I being fake and phony?" That's came up. And then, I realized, "No, no, no, that was a trauma response. I'm totally conditioned to survive like this." But now, I'm breaking it down. I never had a voice. I never thought that I could actually speak my mind. I saw other people doing it. And I thought, "Wow, how did they do that?" Jennifer Burns [11:38]: I'm so afraid of hurting someone's feelings, or my opinion was never good at all. I wasn't even allowed to speak in my home growing up. My opinion was nothing. I was invisible. And so, of course, in the real world, I thought, "Okay, I'm invisible. No one really cares what I have to say." Alyssa Scolari [11:57]: I'm going to continue to be invisible, yes. Jennifer Burns [11:59]: So, this is how I was. So, I now speak my mind. I say what I mean. And I mean what I say. And it is liberating and empowering. But the thing I found the most is my small little world around me. They didn't like it at all. They're like, "Whoa, who's this? Wait, you're not as soft and nurturing as you used to be." Right? Jennifer Burns [12:27]: I was finding my voice and speaking up for myself and setting healthy boundaries. And all of a sudden, this people, friends, family were like, "Oh no, I'm not sure I know who you are anymore." Right? So, it's been a journey for sure. Alyssa Scolari [12:45]: Yeah. And that in itself is again something that is so common, setting boundaries with people. When you've been living for everybody, but yourself, you tend to attract people in your life who become very used to that and almost dependent on the fact that you're always going to be there for them no matter what. Alyssa Scolari [13:05]: But then, you get to a point where you are no longer living for yourself. Or you're no longer living for other people. You're setting down, and people are like, "Who is that? I don't know that person. I don't really care for that person. Oh, you're doing things for yourself?" People don't like it. Jennifer Burns [13:25]: Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And then, what also happens I think is they suck the life out of you by doing this, right? They literally just suck all your energy away from you. And you're so busy doing everything for them. And I had so many girlfriends that would call me. I was their counselor. I would fix everybody else's problems, but never spend the time and work on me. Jennifer Burns [13:56]: I had conditioned myself to be everything to everyone because that created some value in my life. It made me feel like, "See, you do matter. People do need you. They do want you." I mean, I was killing myself doing it though. I was really extending myself way too far. Alyssa Scolari [14:17]: Yeah, as so many, especially childhood trauma abuse survivors because we grow up thinking... we grow up with this idea that we are only worthy of love and we are only valuable so longer as we are useful to others. And the moment we are not is the moment where our intrinsic sense of worth becomes very, very shaky. Everything you're saying is... I think that so many people who are listening are going to relate because it's exactly how I felt. So many folks. Alyssa Scolari [15:01]: And so, for you, you discovered. How did you transform? I mean, you transformed yourself from the inside out. But then, you went on to transform your life from the inside out, your relationships with your children, your relationships with your husband. We are talking magnificent transformations, which, I mean, is incredible. Jennifer Burns [15:26]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [15:26]: Yeah, it's incredible in itself. Jennifer Burns [15:29]: It feels like it was this incredible endeavor. I appreciate you acknowledging it. Honestly, it was uncomfortable. And it was scary because I didn't really know what I was doing. And I think that us as survivors, we don't feel very confident about the choices that we make. And we do need all that external validation. We're not used to trusting ourselves. Jennifer Burns [15:55]: So, this is really what happened. I'm a very crafty person. I'm very creative. So, I always had an outlet like that. I used to be a wedding and event planner. I had my own wedding business for years. Oh, my God. It's amazing, amazing, amazing. But it's very fast paced. It's very last minute. You do everything in one day. It's a lot. Jennifer Burns [16:19]: And I was raising three kids, and I thought, "Oh, I need to do something else." But I always had to do crafts and I love to do... it was like I found that my mind could relax when I was crafting, but it would also not just relax. I call it floating into my childhood. I would float in and take little glimpses of my childhood. And then, I would float back out. I would be like, "Okay." And then, I'd float back out. Jennifer Burns [16:51]: I was constantly comparing, "Wow, look how good my kids have it. I'd have given anything for this kind of childhood." Right? When I would craft with them, I would teach them how to draw or paint. And it didn't matter, anything. Make flower arrangements. It just didn't matter. So, I took this to the next level. I started finger painting with my kids because I liked the way it felt in my finger. Alyssa Scolari [17:18]: The sensory, yes. Jennifer Burns [17:19]: Yes. It was way more. It was going deeper. And it was more raw and authentic. And it was just blending and it was the colors. And I was drawn to a color for a certain reason. And then, I started looking back and I thought, "Oh, these are so boring." I like that I painted that, but these are so boring. I want to embellish them somehow. And all of a sudden, I started finding different things to put on my paintings, and I found crystals. Alyssa Scolari [17:49]: Crystals. Jennifer Burns [17:50]: And I started picking up crystals and I was like, "Okay, am I crazy? I'm feeling something. What is this?" And I just got obsessed with crystals because of their energy. In certain times in my journey, I would be drawn to a different crystal because of their energy and what I was going through and my energy at the time. So, I started incorporating the two. Jennifer Burns [18:18]: And then, I started thinking, "Okay, how can I make these pieces permanent?" Because I didn't want to put a painting on a wall and then have it just fade over time or crystals fall off. And then, I found resin. And resin allowed me to permanently adhere the crystals to any surface. So then, I was like, "Oh my gosh." So, that's how my art came about. Jennifer Burns [18:46]: But as I dove into it deeper and deeper and deeper, I was not the only one being affected. I was just doing it for myself. And then, people would come over and they would see or feel something in my art and say, "Whoa, that..." and they could tell, "Wow, you were going through a dark time with that one." because I used all black obsidian. It's just Bloodstone and just different crystals that were really dark and heavy. Jennifer Burns [19:18]: But then, there could be this really gentle, bright pink rose quartz piece that was just pretty and soft and very loving. Right? Then people started asking me, "Well, would you make me one? And would you make me one?" And people were putting them in their homes and feeling the beautiful energy that would come off of them. Jennifer Burns [19:41]: Because now, I've gotten to the point as anybody in a craft, right? You learn to hone in on it a little bit more. I can work with a client now. And we can collaborate and I can set my intention in those crystals, and set it into their home. So, I can infuse them with the love and support, and strength or whatever it is they're needing and we can collaborate. And it's just a beautiful little marriage. Alyssa Scolari [20:10]: It's so beautiful. And I mean, I could talk about your artwork and I... for the listeners out there, Jen's website is linked in the show notes for today. When I tell you, if you've not done anything else, you need to go on, you need to look at this artwork. If you've never clicked on a link before in my show notes, let this be the one you do because- Jennifer Burns [20:34]: Oh, thank you. Alyssa Scolari [20:34]: ... her artwork is beautiful. And of course, that is something which you and I will absolutely be talking about that because I do want to get a piece from you for my office. And I knew that. We were talking and I saw your work long before I even moved to this new home. Alyssa Scolari [20:56]: And I showed my husband and, I was like, "Listen, when we move, we need to get a piece like this for our home." So, I'm really looking forward to that. So, I have some questions for you as I know some of the listeners might because there is so much crystal hype out there. Jennifer Burns [21:15]: Yeah, there is. Super popular now. Alyssa Scolari [21:18]: It is super, super trendy right now. But I have been trying to get to the bottom of what exactly it is. And I wasn't too sure. Right? Quick story, I wasn't too sure how I felt about the whole the crystal thing as I would call it. Lots of my clients would come in, and they would be like, "I have these crystals, and this does this. Then this is supposed to do that." Alyssa Scolari [21:50]: And I was like, "Okay, this is really cool." Not really sure if they're more than just rocks, but they're really pretty to look at. And I have had so many clients for so many years at this point be like, "Alyssa, you need to go and buy crystals. You need to get into this. It is so healing." Alyssa Scolari [22:11]: So, I was working with a marketing coach who sent me... I was searching for a house at the height of this wild housing market where homes were selling for $100,000 over asking price. And we could not find a home. When we would find a home that we fell in love with, it would be within minutes or hours, that house was already off the market with an offer that was $100,000 in asking price, all cash. It was a really, really stressful time. Alyssa Scolari [22:44]: We could not find a place to live. And my marketing coach, her name's [Pettya 00:22:52], she sent me this crystal. I don't remember the name of it, but it was blue. It was like a turquoise. Jennifer Burns [23:01]: It must be amazonite or something like that. Alyssa Scolari [23:03]: Yeah, something like that. Jennifer Burns [23:05]: Maybe a blue amazonite or something, yeah. Alyssa Scolari [23:08]: She was like, "I really want you to take this with you when you're going to look for homes." I shit you not, I took that out with me the next day when we went to go find a home. And we found this home that I live in now. We got it for asking price. Didn't pay a dime over asking price which is unheard of in this market. And I was blown away. Alyssa Scolari [23:38]: And then, I was like, "Okay, there might be something to this." Fast forward a few months, a couple weeks ago, my husband and I are in this cute little village near where we live, where there's lots of shops and nice little things. And there was this crystal shop. Now, I personally had never been inside a crystal shop before. And I went in, and I felt things. Jennifer Burns [24:02]: That's it. Alyssa Scolari [24:03]: Strange. I don't even have words for it. Jennifer Burns [24:08]: It's a vibration and an energy. Alyssa Scolari [24:12]: Yes, yes. While I was in there is that I noticed I kept coming back to this specific crystal. And I couldn't understand why because there were other crystals in there that were more sparkly or whatever. But there was a specific one I was very, very drawn to. And I left and I didn't look it up or anything. There wasn't a sign about what it's supposed to do for you. Alyssa Scolari [24:39]: I left and we were driving home and I was like, "I don't know why, but I can't stop thinking about that one crystal." And I went to go look it up. And for the last several months, I have been struggling with GI issues, hormonal regulation issues, so many health problems. I looked up what that stone is often used for, regulating hormonal imbalances, healing your GI system. And I was like, "Oh, shit." Jennifer Burns [25:15]: Yeah, there is something to this. Alyssa Scolari [25:17]: I have now entered the world. Jennifer Burns [25:19]: [inaudible 00:25:19]. Alyssa Scolari [25:22]: Yes. Jennifer Burns [25:23]: That's awesome. Alyssa Scolari [25:23]: Can you please explain to us how does this process work? What is this? How can it help? Where should somebody even begin if they want to get started? Jennifer Burns [25:36]: Okay. So basically, think about it like this, over millions of years, thousands of years, however far back you want to go, the earth creates heat and pressure, right? And when they mine these crystals, you don't know how long they've been there, sitting there, waiting for someone to find them. Jennifer Burns [25:59]: And all that heat and energy and pressure creates a vibration and an energy into that crystal. So, after they mine it and they might polish it, sometimes you'll get it in a raw form or a polished form, however it is, it is going to emanate an energy. It's going to give you a vibration and an energy. And you need to cleanse your crystals. That's a whole another process. Alyssa Scolari [26:25]: The selenite sticks, right? Is that what people use to cleanse them? Jennifer Burns [26:28]: They do. Yes, selenite. You use the full moon. You can use water. Don't use water on selenite though. It'll dissolve. But other than that, yes, selenite. You can just place one nice stick of selenite within your collection of crystals. And it will actually help cleanse all your crystals. Jennifer Burns [26:48]: Because if you think about it like this, once you pick your crystal and you can do it exactly how you do it, just walking around, feeling what its calling to you because it's... and it'll change. You could go into that shop tomorrow and you might be drawn to a completely different crystal now because you might need a different energy source. Jennifer Burns [27:09]: So, once you pick your crystal and you bring it into your home, I set my intention with that crystal. I would like it to protect my home. I have obsidian by my door because it blocks negativity from coming in, things like that. I love to have rose quartz in my bathroom because it's all about self-love and self-care. Amethyst is everywhere in my house because it's basically healing. It's all about healing and calming. Jennifer Burns [27:37]: I mean, I have crystals everywhere as you can imagine. But once you pick a crystal, it's all about allowing yourself to hold it. But that's the other thing. People will put a gorgeous display out and never touch those crystals. It's fine. You can do that. And it will still bring in gorgeous energy into that room. But you also want to pick that crystal up, feel it. Let that transfer of energy happen. Jennifer Burns [28:07]: When you hold someone's hand and you feel something, the same thing happens when you pick up a crystal. Especially if it's a crystal you need, you will definitely be called to what you need. I even had picked up before we had our call today. I have about six crystals here that I know would be amazing in your life right now. I have literally pulled out some crystals. I'll tell them to you. Alyssa Scolari [28:36]: That's amazing. Jennifer Burns [28:37]: I can do it later, but this one specifically had to do with calming, healing and fertility. So, I don't know why I'm picking that up, but I am. So, just things like that. Things maybe just in the root chakra. Alyssa Scolari [28:54]: But you don't know why you're picking that up? Jennifer Burns [28:58]: Well, I know why, but I didn't want to say it out loud. Alyssa Scolari [29:03]: Oh, no. Jennifer Burns [29:03]: I mean, we've never talked about this. So, you know what I mean. I didn't want to make any assumptions over a recording. You know what I mean? Alyssa Scolari [29:12]: Yeah. No, that's fascinating to me because yes, I am actually seeing a surgeon tomorrow for endometriosis. Jennifer Burns [29:21]: Oh, wow. There you go. Now, funny story, it's not funny actually, about two years ago now, I used to take care of my aunt. And she had dementia, and she had no children. And I was the closest thing to a daughter to her, and very old school just won't talk about any of the toxicity or any of the abuse that happened in our family. You can't even talk to her about it. Jennifer Burns [29:52]: And her sister was one of my main abusers which was my mother. And you just couldn't talk to her about it. So, you just had to... I love her, but she was mean. And she had no filter and she would just say horrible things to me. And I was very upset by her all the time. Jennifer Burns [30:10]: So, jump in, I would have to take care of her because there literally was no one in the family. And I've already cut off this whole side of my family. So, this was very, very difficult for me. So, I'm going somewhere with this story. What this means is when I started taking care of her and she could still speak, and she would say awful things. And I started getting sick. I started getting sicker and sicker. Jennifer Burns [30:42]: I was fine. I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything because she's old and she didn't really... you're just nice like that. Right? But internally, I was getting so sick and I ended up getting sick at my other abuse point which was in my root chakra or my uterus. Right? So, I started bleeding out. Jennifer Burns [31:07]: I know this is a lot of information. But basically, I started hemorrhaging to the point where I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop at all. So, I had surgery and I was fine. And I went back to my aunt. And I was on the plane to go see her. I have had surgery. I'm fine now. I'm not bleeding anywhere. And I'm on the plane. And I'm about to get off the plane to go see her, and I have a complete explosion. Alyssa Scolari [31:36]: What? Jennifer Burns [31:37]: I know this is so much information. I'm a total open book, but yeah, it was really scary. Alyssa Scolari [31:43]: Oh, my gosh. Jennifer Burns [31:44]: My point is, my sickness was so deep within. I had to end up having surgery again. So, my point is, I grabbed my crystals, this, and I was new at this point with crystals. I didn't really understand the power. I got my crystals and I got crystals specifically for that area, my root chakra. Lots of red crystals, right, your carnelians, your bloodstone, moonstone, things like that. And I healed so beautifully, so quickly. And it was beautiful. Jennifer Burns [32:25]: Even my doctor was like, "You are doing amazing considering you just had two surgeries in two months." kind of thing. Crystals have been great for me personally. I use them in every aspect of my life. I use them every single day. Not only in my work, which I don't even consider work. I get to just have this job where I focus on me every day all day now, which is the opposite of what my life used to be. Jennifer Burns [32:56]: It's also ritualistic. And I think that is probably the biggest change in my life is I create my world to be so aesthetically pleasing with music, with lighting. I literally sit and I speak to my guides and I ask them to work with me daily. And I pick the crystals. And if I've collaborated with someone, I'll be pulling them in and having conversations with them and getting to know them, so that I can set the intention of this piece that's going to go in their home. Jennifer Burns [33:32]: And then, I sit for hours. Literally, I can spend eight hours in my studio, literally placing each and every crystal intentionally. And then, I set it in resin and it is just the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. And at the end of the day, I feel so internally at peace and that is new. I've never felt at peace in my life. And this is where it's coming from now, my work. And I started therapy three months ago because I was finally- Alyssa Scolari [34:12]: Congratulations. Jennifer Burns [34:12]: Thank you. I was finally at a point in my life because of my work now that I could allow my brain to go there. And so, I started EMDR, amazing, life changing. Alyssa Scolari [34:29]: Amazing. That's what I've heard. Jennifer Burns [34:31]: Literally. I can't really explain it except it works. It literally reprograms your brain. And you don't even... you feel silly in the moment. Is this really doing something? I can't even tell you how it has cleared the cobwebs of abuse in my body. It's amazing. Alyssa Scolari [34:54]: It is so amazing. And for the listeners out there, if you are curious to learn more about EMDR, it is a highly effective treatment for trauma. And you actually can go back earlier on in my episodes. I had Melissa Parks, I believe her name is. I mean, she was incredible and she breaks down exactly what EMDR is. So, please feel free to go back and check that out. But yes, EMDR is phenomenal. Alyssa Scolari [35:24]: Because I think so much of trauma, when we look at trauma in the western culture, it's so disembodied, right? It's just like we're not looking at how trauma is stored in your body. And I think EMDR does a decent job at trying to address trauma in a way that's not just talk therapy. Jennifer Burns [35:44]: Exactly. Because in a way, you really have to think about a moment that you want to work on. And that is the beauty of EMDR is you deal with one particular incident at a time. And for me, it was like I was getting to the point like, "Do I have something I need to think about?" Jennifer Burns [36:06]: I could literally do so many particular incidences, and it is so specific. It's not scary at all. It's actually quite a soothing process. And I don't know how it works in your brain. I really would love to learn more about that part. I'm just trusting my therapist and going with it. And I listen to everything. Alyssa Scolari [36:30]: Requires trust. Jennifer Burns [36:31]: It really does. But also, 100%, you have to be so open. And you have to know that it's going to work. You have to know that it's going to get in there and fix you. And I think that is the part of therapy I was always frightened of is I thought it just still seemed so overwhelming. And I didn't know what I was going to say or what was going to come out of me. Jennifer Burns [36:56]: And I also felt like, "How on earth am I going to go do that? And then, go back and go do the dishes, and cook dinner and be with my children." And I couldn't do that, right, because I'm always so high, positive. And so, this has allowed me to really go there, but not feel like I can't now go back and join my life right after. It's fine. Jennifer Burns [37:22]: Anyway, it's a beautiful process. And so, combined with... and I've tried lots of different things, but the EMDR, my art, and literally every single day choosing to take the time, I do it like a job now. I spend time on me as if it was my job. Now, I'm lucky. And I do get to do that. I don't have to actually leave my house and go to a job, 9:00 to 5:00, but I choose me as a job right now. And it's working. It's absolutely working. Alyssa Scolari [37:57]: So important. Yes, I have full body chills from all the things that you've said. I think it's so fascinating. And it's so fascinating that one of the things that came to you was a crystal that's supposed to help with fertility issues. It's just oh, full body chills. Jennifer Burns [38:19]: Exactly. Alyssa Scolari [38:19]: It's wild to me. Jennifer Burns [38:21]: Well, I used to mentor people intuitively, but this was before people knew that word. That word's thrown around a lot now. I mean, it really is. And I would never tell anyone, "Yeah, I'm an intuitive." They'd be like, "You're a what?" That's weird. But I would just know things about people and I call it getting a download. And I would get really quiet. People don't get quiet enough. Because when you get quiet, it is amazing what comes to you. Jennifer Burns [38:53]: And I think us as women, and I know it happens for men too, but especially women because we do everything based off our gut, which is never wrong by the way ever. If you sit there, you will get information on anyone. I mean, especially if you're in the presence. Alyssa Scolari [39:13]: You just have to be open to it. Jennifer Burns [39:14]: You just have to be quiet and open. And also, I really believe for me personally, I had to cut people out of my life. And I had to not feel bad about it anymore. I felt guilty. I felt like I can't do that. But people didn't understand it and thought I was being mean. But you know what? You have to surround yourself with beautiful people and people that think like you. Jennifer Burns [39:42]: And I still struggle sometimes with the family part of it. Because when the holidays are coming, right, I'm like, "Oh, I feel this sense of obligation to show up." But you know what? I don't anymore. And I don't even feel bad anymore because it's okay. It's for me. It's all okay. And it's for me. And they're not really banging down my door anyway, right? They're not really asking. So, it's okay. Alyssa Scolari [40:13]: Yes, it is so okay. I've had that experience too. Thanksgiving was the first holiday that I chose to spend it with who was safe. Jennifer Burns [40:21]: There you go. Safe, that's it. That's the perfect word. Alyssa Scolari [40:25]: Yeah. I mean, it was incredible. It was just incredible. And like you said, my family didn't knock down my door. Nobody was knocking down my door. So, it was like, "Well, I went where I felt the most loved, and it ended up being really fun." Jennifer Burns [40:42]: Oh, see, there you go. I think as trauma survivors, we're just constantly seeking safety and that soft place. And we never trust it. We always are expecting there to be this element of uncomfortableness somewhere. Jennifer Burns [40:57]: And it's so beautiful to choose joy now and sit in a place like that filled with family or friends that you do love and love you and accept you. You go home and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. I actually enjoyed this. And nothing bad happened today [crosstalk 00:41:16], which is amazing." My God, what a thought. Alyssa Scolari [41:20]: What a dream. I know. Jennifer Burns [41:23]: So simple. Alyssa Scolari [41:24]: Yes, and a place like that comes from, just like you said, making you a full-time job and making caring for yourself a full-time job. It's a beautiful- Jennifer Burns [41:33]: Yeah. And it doesn't have to be forever. Just even if it's a week, a day, a month, whatever you can to sit and really self-love, self-love. You don't have to have crystals to do this. Just literally get quiet. I talk to my guides and I say, "You know what? What do you have for me today?" or, "I really need your support today. I'm having, for some reason, a very nostalgic day and I'm sad." Jennifer Burns [42:01]: And in fact, I was thinking about this yesterday. The Christmas music has come on our radios and which is awesome. It's my favorite time of year. And I've created beautiful holidays in our family. That is my thing is holidays. We all get so excited now. Jennifer Burns [42:20]: I was thinking while I was driving my daughter to school. And I thought, "Oh, my gosh. She's so excited about Christmas, and so am I." But back when I was her age, I used to dread Christmas because I was home stuck with them. Right? And I would never enjoy Christmas. It wasn't enjoyable at all. I would just be living in fear. Jennifer Burns [42:44]: And so, I thought how beautiful it is to turn that around. And instead of hang onto that and always hate Christmas, now, I absolutely love it. And it's my favorite. Because I think again, you have to make a choice. You have to decide that was then. That's over. And this is now. And I think a lot of people can't differentiate that and get out of that. Alyssa Scolari [43:08]: It's a lot of hard work. It is a lot of hard work, which is why I have the utmost respect for you. I mean, I just- Jennifer Burns [43:16]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [43:18]: I love talking to you. Jennifer Burns [43:19]: Thank you so much. Oh, I love it. This has been so fun. Alyssa Scolari [43:23]: It's so great talking to you. And I learned so much. I was so excited for this, to do this interview. And I know that I had to postpone and it took me a little while, but truthfully, it's amazing. Jennifer Burns [43:38]: Glad you're good. Alyssa Scolari [43:38]: The timing of the universe is impeccable because I would not have had those experiences with crystals if we had done the interview back when we initially talked about it. Jennifer Burns [43:50]: That's right. Alyssa Scolari [43:52]: So, yeah, the timing of the universe is impeccable. Jennifer Burns [43:59]: I remind myself every day, "I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be today." Alyssa Scolari [44:04]: That's exactly it. Yep, I am exactly where I'm supposed to be in this moment. Yes, that is a really important thing to remember, all of us. Jennifer Burns [44:15]: That's right. Alyssa Scolari [44:16]: Now, can you give out your website? It is going to be on the show notes. But can you just say what your website is so that people can find you? Jennifer Burns [44:23]: Yes, absolutely. So, it's healingartbyjen.com. And I also have an Instagram, @healingartbyjen, and it's constantly being updated. And you can also contact me through there to do commission pieces and special custom pieces for your houses. Alyssa Scolari [44:45]: All right, listeners, you know where that website is. Go find it. Her work is so breathtakingly beautiful. Jennifer Burns [44:54]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [44:55]: And I know you are in the process of writing a book. I would absolutely love to have you back on when you are promoting your book and things like that. Jennifer Burns [45:05]: Okay. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [45:07]: So, this is not the last we will be hearing of Jen. Jennifer Burns [45:11]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [45:11]: And thank you so, so much for coming on the show today. Jennifer Burns [45:13]: Oh, thanks, Alyssa. This has been so fun. Alyssa Scolari [45:17]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari [45:34]: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

THE THESIS: They all have different idols: money, hate, race, sex, gender, weather, power. The antichrist is building his political coalition on earth, he will herd them all under his fetid and bloody wing, then hooves.  THE SCRIPTURE:  Mark 4:35-41 -- Jesus Calms the Storm 35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don't you care if we drown?” 39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. 40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?” 41 They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!” ---   ---   ---   --- Matthew 27 - The Death of Jesus 45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d] 47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He's calling Elijah.” 48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him.” 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. THE NEWS: ESG, POWER, SEX, SCIENTISM, GOVERNMENT MONEY - Canadian media outlet says bank denied it a commercial mortgage over conservative political leanings POWER - FBI And Other Agencies Paid Informants $548 Million In Recent Years With Many Committing Authorized Crimes Acosta to NYC MAYOR-ELECT, Adams: are you willing to take the blame for a surge resulting to time square festivities and school reopenings? CONTROL - ATF's Weingarten: ‘i personally support' vaccine mandate for kids 5 and over THE MONOLOGUE: Are you a Jesus needer? Will you call out things like abortion as an afront to the Lord? Have you proven you are His servant? … if so, you will vote accordingly. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Jesus Was Not God Prior To His Birth and Exaltation To The Godhead! Books: amazon.com/Richard-A-Hardin/e/B09J2YHCVB Email: rhardin77@yahoo.com Weekly: M-F, 7-8AM; Sat-Sun, 6-8 AM (CST) rahardin.com -Bio, Books, 18 Videos, Podcasts ***** I will discuss mercy, then the relationship of mercy and truth in the Old Testament (OT) which shows that Jesus did not live or serve in the OT, except for the days He walked on Earth. Jesus only became exalted to the fullness of Godhead, Trinity, after His death and then He became the third part of the Trinity after His resurrection. I will show from Scripture there was no grace in the OT: Grace and Truth came by Jesus. God and His Spoken Word, Christ, was the full expression of the Godhead in the OT, look at Psalms 25:10, "ALL the paths of the Lord are Mercy and Truth unto such as keep His Covenant and His Testimonies." and Isaiah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My Covenant with them, saith the Lord; My Spirit (Mercy) that is upon thee, and My Words(Truth) which I have put in thy mouth,..". When Jesus was exalted to the fullness of the Godhead, the Trinity of God came into existence: God the Father, Jesus the Son and Their Spoken Living Word, Christ. This is very different than what is being presently taught as the "Christian World View." Jesus, the man, died on the cross for our sin sacrifice because the Spirit of Christ left Him when He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Jesus the man then died and paid the sin sacrifice for us! That is why God was so pleased with the man Jesus and exalted Him through just being our mediator, to being fully God in the fullness of the Godhead! on @KLRNRadio.com 6AM CST Sun #GPWF #Christian & on rahardin.com anytime or speak to Alexa and say, "Play God's Pure Word of Faith.

Jesus Was Not God Prior To His Birth and Exaltation To The Godhead! Books: amazon.com/Richard-A-Hardin/e/B09J2YHCVB Email: rhardin77@yahoo.com Weekly: M-F, 7-8AM; Sat-Sun, 6-8 AM (CST)rahardin.com -Bio, Books, 18 Videos, Podcasts***** I will discuss mercy, then the relationship of mercy and truth in the Old Testament (OT) which shows that Jesus did not live or serve in the OT, except for the days He walked on Earth. Jesus only became exalted to the fullness of Godhead, Trinity, after His death and then He became the third part of the Trinity after His resurrection. I will show from Scripture there was no grace in the OT: Grace and Truth came by Jesus. God and His Spoken Word, Christ, was the full expression of the Godhead in the OT, look at Psalms 25:10, "ALL the paths of the Lord are Mercy and Truth unto such as keep His Covenant and His Testimonies." and Isaiah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My Covenant with them, saith the Lord; My Spirit (Mercy) that is upon thee, and My Words(Truth) which I have put in thy mouth,..". When Jesus was exalted to the fullness of the Godhead, the Trinity of God came into existence: God the Father, Jesus the Son and Their Spoken Living Word, Christ. This is very different than what is being presently taught as the "Christian World View." Jesus, the man, died on the cross for our sin sacrifice because the Spirit of Christ left Him when He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Jesus the man then died and paid the sin sacrifice for us! That is why God was so pleased with the man Jesus and exalted Him through just being our mediator, to being fully God in the fullness of the Godhead! on @KLRNRadio.com 6AM CST Sun #GPWF #Christian & on rahardin.com anytime or speak to Alexa and say, "Play God's Pure Word of Faith.

THE THESIS: We are in the eye of the Cultural Revolution hurricane--”return to normal”--the storm The Party brings next will be worse than before . . .  THE SCRIPTURE:  Mark 4:35-41 -- Jesus Calms the Storm 35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don't you care if we drown?” 39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. 40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?” 41 They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!” ---   ---   ---   --- Matthew 27 - The Death of Jesus 45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d] 47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He's calling Elijah.” 48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him.” 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. 54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!” THE NEWS: When The Party has the official policy of putting news like this down the Memory Hole, to what else will they give the Orwell acid bath?  Border Patrol Caught Again Deleting Announcement About Arresting Terrorists at the Border; Biden's admin deleted a press release announcing the arrest of two Yemeni immigrants in April. Both had a spot on the Terrorism Watch List and a No-Fly List. When The Party is willing to lie like this, . . . What AREN'T they willing to lie about?  → Vaccines help reduce COVID-19 transmission and hospitalization, but they may have important secondary benefits   When The Party is happy to push Panic Porn like this, what aren't they willing to push? → Another Christmas of Death and Distress in America's I.C.U.s; The toll on health care workers, many of whom are giving up their holiday to treat dangerously ill Covid patients, is severe. THE MONOLOGUE: Whatever it is, it's going to be “woke” and it's going to use Top-Down, Bottom-Up, Squeeze The Middle.  Declassified Military Report Exposes Hidden Links Between Wokeness and The American Regime Woke is astroturfed populism  Popwerline: Is the center-right collapsing? -- Yes, Paull, it is and The Party has constructed the fake populism of the so called “left.”  It's going to be pro-CCP → Column: Amazon Supports Democracy Dying in Darkness The Woke-Myths must be protected . . .  Cutting Room Floor: CBS Edits Out 911 Call Warning Cops of Gun See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Luke 9:28-29 Jesus prayed until his countenance was altered. My God, do you have a prayer life like that? --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/tasha-mack9/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/tasha-mack9/support

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.6 Summary Faith, prayer and work were the cornerstones in the early days of Christianity. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660846629

It's ok to question: "What Happens Next?"I'm sure Joseph questioned his dreams when he was trapped in that hole.David probably questioned his Kingship when he was hiding in cavesMary probably questioned her baby's identity when delivering him in a stable.But in every story - God was working. God had a plan. Even when Jesus asked, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - and it looked like the end had come - GOD STILL HAD A PLAN. A plan of redemption, rescue, and restoration. A story of his incredible love for you. He has been with you every step of the way this year, and he'll do the same next year. For more information, visit us at lwcc.org/northwest.To give a financial gift, simply text GIVE to 763.325.1010.

Mark chats with Paul Markel, Student of the Gun and devours an anti-gun piece referring to gun show attendees as ripe for conversion to white supremacy groups. My God, does it ever end? NO!

And through lack of zeal for the promulgation of the third angel's message, many others, while not apparently living in transgression, are nevertheless as verily lending their influence on the side of Satan as are those who openly sin against God. Multitudes are perishing; but how few are burdened for these souls! There is a stupor, a paralysis, upon many of the people of God, which prevents them from understanding the duty of the hour. When the Israelites entered Canaan, they did not fulfill God's purpose by taking possession of the whole land. After making a partial conquest, they settled down to enjoy the fruit of their victories. In their unbelief and love of ease they congregated in the portions already conquered, instead of pushing forward to occupy new territory. Thus they began to depart from God. By their failure to carry out His purpose they made it impossible for Him to fulfill to them His promise of blessing. Is not the church of today doing the same thing? With the whole world before them in need of the gospel, professed Christians congregate where they themselves can enjoy gospel privileges. They do not feel the necessity of occupying new territory, carrying the message of salvation into regions beyond. They refuse to fulfill Christ's commission: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Are they less guilty than was the Jewish church? -120- “Choose You This Day Whom Ye Will Serve” There will be a sharp conflict between those who are loyal to God and those who cast scorn upon His law. Reverence for God's law has been subverted. The religious leaders are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. As it was in the days of ancient Israel, so it is in this age of the world. But because of the prevalence of disloyalty and transgression, will those who have reverenced the law of God now cherish less respect for it? Will they unite with the powers of earth to make it void? The loyal will not be carried away by the current of evil. They will not throw contempt on that which God has set apart as holy. They will not follow Israel's example of forgetfulness; they will call to remembrance God's dealings with His people in all ages, and will walk in the way of His commandments. The test comes to everyone. There are only two sides. On which side are you? The Shield of Omnipotence God's commandment-keeping people stand under the broad shield of Omnipotence. “He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust. For He will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover thee with His pinions, And under His wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day; For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked. -121- “For Thou, O Jehovah, art my refuge! Thou hast made the Most High thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, Neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent. For He will give His angels charge over thee, To keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, Lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the serpent shalt thou trample underfoot. Because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known My name. He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble: I will deliver him, and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him, And show him My salvation.” Psalm 91, A. R. V. Jehovah Reigneth “Oh come, let us sing unto Jehovah; Let us make a joyful noise to the Rock of our salvation. Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving; Let us make a joyful noise unto Him with psalms. “For Jehovah is a great God, And a great King above all gods. In His hand are the deep places of the earth; The heights of the mountains are His also. The sea is His, and He made it; And His hands formed the dry land. “Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker: “For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand. Today, Oh that ye would hear His voice! Harden not your heart, as at Meribah, As in the day of Massah in the wilderness; When your fathers tempted Me, Proved Me, and saw My work. “Forty years long was I grieved with that generation, And said, It is a people that do err in their heart, And they have not known My ways: Wherefore I sware in My wrath, that they should not enter into My rest. -122- “Oh sing unto Jehovah a new song: Sing unto Jehovah, all the earth. Sing unto Jehovah, bless His name; Show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His marvelous works among all the peoples. “For great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the peoples are idols; But Jehovah made the heavens. Honor and majesty are before Him: Strength and beauty are in His sanctuary. “Ascribe unto Jehovah, ye kindreds of the peoples, Ascribe unto Jehovah glory and strength. Ascribe unto Jehovah the glory due unto His name: Bring an offering, and come into His courts. Oh worship Jehovah in holy array: Tremble before Him, all the earth. “Say among the nations, Jehovah reigneth: The world also is established that it cannot be moved: He will judge the peoples with equity. “Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; Let the sea roar, and the fullness thereof; Let the field exult, and all that is therein; Then shall all the trees of the wood sing for joy “Before Jehovah; for He cometh, For He cometh to judge the earth: He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth.” Psalm 95; 96, A. R. V. Section 3—Letters to Physicians “To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.” Philippians 3:1. -123- Chapter 21—The Value of Trial En Route to Copenhagen, July 16, 1886 To the Medical Superintendent of the Battle Creek Sanitarium My Dear Brother, I have the most tender love for you, and I would that those who are pursuing you with reproach would let you alone. But, my brother, you must remember that these perplexities and annoyances are included in the “all things” that work together for good to those who love God. The Lord's eye is upon you, and He beholds those who would misrepresent you and tear you to pieces. But if you will be of good courage, if you will stay your soul upon God, if you will trust your heavenly Father as a child trusts its parent, if you will deal justly and love mercy, God can and will work with you. His promise is sure: “Them that honor Me I will honor.” 1 Samuel 2:30. Remember that your experience is not the first of the kind. You know the history of Joseph and of Daniel. The Lord did not prevent the plottings of wicked men; but He caused their devices to work for good to those who, amidst trial and conflict, preserved their faith and loyalty. The furnace fires are not to destroy, but to refine, ennoble, sanctify. Without trial we should not feel so much our need of God and His help; and we should become proud and self-sufficient. In the trials that come to you I see evidence that the Lord's eye is upon you and that He means to draw you to Himself. It is not the whole, but the wounded, who need a physician; it is those who are pressed almost beyond the point of endurance who need a helper. Turn to the stronghold. Learn the precious lesson: “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30. -124- Jesus loves you, and I am made glad as I read of the experience through which you are passing, not because you are a sufferer, but because this is an evidence to me that the Lord Jesus is testing and proving you, to see if you will come to Him, to see if you will put your trust in Him and find peace and rest in His love. I am praying for you, that you may come to Him, the Fountain of living water. This is the experience that every one of us must have if we ever dwell with Christ in the mansions that He has gone to prepare for us. You have lessons of the highest value to learn in the school of Christ, lessons that will lead you to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It is when you are prospered, when all men speak well of you, that you are in danger. Be on your guard, for you will be tried. My greatest fear for you has been that you would have too great prosperity, and that you would fail to learn that your dependence is alone upon God. You have been placed in a position of great trust and honor, and there has been danger of your becoming dizzy and forgetting your dependence upon God. You have been placed where you can exert a far-reaching influence for good if you keep your eye single to the glory of God. Your heavenly Father loves you, and He will draw you to Himself by the trials that seem to you severe. -125- I have a most earnest desire that you shall enter the city of God, not as a culprit barely pardoned, but as a conqueror. My brother, will you think of this? If you are true and humble and faithful in this life, you will be given an abundant entrance. Then the tree of life will be yours, for you will be a victor over sin; the city whose builder and maker is God will be your city. Let your imagination take hold upon things unseen. Let your thoughts be carried away to the evidences of the great love of God for you. In contemplating the object of which you are in pursuit, you will lose the sense of pain brought by the light afflictions that are but for a moment. Paul's Experience Copenhagen, July 17, 1886 Paul was a man who knew what it means to be a partaker of Christ's sufferings. You have no need that I repeat the history of his trials. His life was one of constant activity, notwithstanding he was subject to many infirmities. He was continually followed by the hatred and malice of the Jews. They were exceedingly bitter against him and did all in their power to hinder him in his work. Yet we hear his voice sounding down along the line of our time: “Our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” “I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” 2 Corinthians 4:17, 18; Romans 8:18. None too highly does Paul estimate the privileges and advantages of the Christian life. I speak with no hesitancy about this matter, for I know for myself that what he says is true. -126- Resting in God's Love Paul says further: “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” Verses 14, 15. One of the lessons that we are to learn in the school of Christ is that the Lord's love for us is far greater than that of our earthly parents. We are to have unquestioning faith and perfect confidence in Him. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.” Verses 16, 17. May the Lord help you, as a diligent student in the school of Christ, to learn to lay your burdens on Jesus. And if you are free in His love, you will look above and away from these annoying trials. Think of what Jesus has endured for you, and never forget that it is part of the legacy that we have received as Christians, to be partakers with Him of His sufferings, that we may be partakers with Him of His glory. The Danger of Self-Sufficiency Study Nebuchadnezzar's dream as recorded in the fourth chapter of Daniel. The king saw a lofty tree planted in the earth. Flocks and herds from the mountains and hills enjoyed its shelter, and the birds of the air built their nests in its branches. Thus were represented Nebuchadnezzar's greatness and prosperity. Nations were gathered under his sovereignty. His kingdom was firmly established in the hearts of his loyal subjects. The king saw his prosperity, and because of it he was lifted up. Notwithstanding the warnings that God had given him, he did the very things which the Lord had told him not to do. He looked upon his kingdom with pride and exclaimed: “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honor of my majesty?” Daniel 4:30. The instant that the words were uttered, the sentence of judgment was pronounced. The king's reason was taken away. The judgment that he had thought so perfect, the wisdom that he had prided himself on possessing, were removed. The jewel of the mind, that which elevates man above the beasts, he no longer retained. -127- The scepter is no longer held in the hand of a proud and powerful monarch. The mighty ruler is a maniac. He now herds with the cattle to eat as they eat. He is a companion of the beasts of the field. The brow that once wore a coronet is disfigured by the absence of reason and intellect. The mandate has gone forth: “Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit.” Verse 14. So the Lord magnifies Himself as the true and living God. Well might David exclaim: “I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.” Psalm 37:35, 36. Let men become lifted up in pride, and the Lord will not sustain them and keep them from falling. Let a church become proud and boastful, not depending on God, not exalting His power, and that church will surely be left by the Lord, to be brought down to the ground. Let a people glory in wealth, intellect, knowledge, or in anything but Christ, and they will soon be brought to confusion. Our Burden Bearer My brother, remember that this earth is not heaven. Christ has declared: “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” John 16:33; Matthew 5:10-12. -128- Jesus has not left you to be amazed at the trials and difficulties you meet. He has told you all about them, and He has told you also not to be cast down and oppressed when trials come. Look to Jesus, your Redeemer, and be cheerful and rejoice. The trials hardest to bear are those that come from our brethren, our own familiar friends; but even these trials may be borne with patience. Jesus is not lying in Joseph's new tomb. He has risen and has ascended to heaven, there to intercede in our behalf. We have a Saviour who so loved us that He died for us, that through Him we might have hope and strength and courage, and a place with Him upon His throne. He is able and willing to help you whenever you call upon Him. If you try to carry your burdens alone you will be crushed under them. You have heavy responsibilities. Jesus knows about them, and He will not leave you alone if you do not leave Him. He is honored when you commit the keeping of your soul to Him as unto a faithful Creator. He bids you hope in His mercy, believing that He does not desire you to carry these weighty responsibilities in your own strength. Only believe, and you will see the salvation of God. Do you feel your insufficiency for the position of trust that you occupy? Thank God for this. The more you feel your weakness, the more you will be inclined to seek for a helper. “Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you.” James 4:8. Jesus wants you to be happy, to be cheerful. He wants you to do your best with the ability that God has given you and then trust the Lord to help you and to raise up those who will be your helpers in carrying burdens. -129- Let not the unkind speeches of men hurt you. Did not men say unkind things about Jesus? You err, and may sometimes give occasion for unkind remarks; but Jesus never did. He was pure, spotless, undefiled. Do not expect a better portion in this life than the Prince of glory had. When your enemies see that they can make you feel hurt, they will rejoice, and Satan will rejoice. Look to Jesus, and work with an eye single to His glory. Keep your heart in the love of God. Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 8 pp. 119-128

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.5 These Last Days The early Christians were full of desire to see Jesus coming back. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660846169

About AnilAnil Dash is the CEO of Glitch, the friendly developer community where coders collaborate to create and share millions of web apps. He is a recognized advocate for more ethical tech through his work as an entrepreneur and writer. He serves as a board member for organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the leading nonprofit defending digital privacy and expression, Data & Society Research Institute, which researches the cutting edge of tech's impact on society, and The Markup, the nonprofit investigative newsroom that pushes for tech accountability. Dash was an advisor to the Obama White House's Office of Digital Strategy, served for a decade on the board of Stack Overflow, the world's largest community for coders, and today advises key startups and non-profits including the Lower East Side Girls Club, Medium, The Human Utility, DonorsChoose and Project Include.As a writer and artist, Dash has been a contributing editor and monthly columnist for Wired, written for publications like The Atlantic and Businessweek, co-created one of the first implementations of the blockchain technology now known as NFTs, had his works exhibited in the New Museum of Contemporary Art, and collaborated with Hamilton creator Lin-Manuel Miranda on one of the most popular Spotify playlists of 2018. Dash has also been a keynote speaker and guest in a broad range of media ranging from the Obama Foundation Summit to SXSW to Desus and Mero's late-night show.Links: Glitch: https://glitch.com Web.dev: https://web.dev Glitch Twitter: https://twitter.com/glitch Anil Dash Twitter: https://twitter.com/anildash TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's guest is a little bit off the beaten path from the cloud infrastructure types I generally drag, kicking and screaming, onto the show. If we take a look at the ecosystem and where it's going, it's clear that in the future, not everyone who wants to build a business, or a tool, or even an application is going to necessarily spring fully-formed into the world from the forehead of some God, knowing how to code. And oh, “I'm going to go to a boot camp for four months to learn how to do it first,” is increasingly untenable. I don't know if you would call it low-code or not. But that's how it feels. My guest today is Anil Dash, CEO of Glitch. Anil, thank you for joining me.Anil: Thanks so much for having me.Corey: So, let's get the important stuff out of the way first, since I have a long-standing history of mispronouncing the company Twitch as ‘Twetch,' I should probably do the same thing here. So, what is Gletch? And what does it do?Anil: Glitch is, at its simplest, a tool that lets you build a full-stack app in your web browser in about 30 seconds. And, you know, for your community, your audience, it's also this ability to create and deploy code instantly on a full-stack server with no concern for deploy, or DevOps, or provisioning a container, or any of those sort of concerns. And what it is for the users is, honestly, a community. They're like, “I looked at this app that was on Glitch; I thought it was cool; I could do what we call [remixing 00:02:03].” Which is to kind of fork that app, a running app, make a couple edits, and all of a sudden live at a real URL on the web, my app is running with exactly what I built. And that's something that has been—I think, just captured a lot of people's imagination to now where they've built over 12 or 15 million apps on the platform.Corey: You describe it somewhat differently than I would, and given that I tend to assume that people who create and run successful businesses don't generally tend to do it without thought, I'm not quite, I guess, insufferable enough to figure out, “Oh, well, I thought about this for ten seconds, therefore I've solved a business problem that you have been needling at for years.” But when I look at Glitch, I would describe it as something different than the way that you describe it. I would call it a web-based IDE for low-code applications and whatnot, and you never talk about it that way. Everything I can see there describes it talks about friendly creators, and community tied to it. Why is that?Anil: You're not wrong from the conventional technologist's point of view. I—sufficient vintage; I was coding in Visual Basic back in the '90s and if you squint, you can see that influence on Glitch today. And so I don't reject that description, but part of it is about the audience we're speaking to, which is sort of a next generation of creators. And I think importantly, that's not just age, right, but that could be demographic, that can be just sort of culturally, wherever you're at. And what we look at is who's making the most interesting stuff on the internet and in the industry, and they tend to be grounded in broader culture, whether they're on, you know, Instagram, or TikTok, or, you know, whatever kind of influencer, you want to point at—YouTube.And those folks, they think of themselves as creators first and they think of themselves as participating in the community first and then the tool sort of follow. And I think one of the things that's really striking is, if you look at—we'll take YouTube as an example because everyone's pretty familiar with it—they have a YouTube Creator Studio. And it is a very rich and deep tool. It does more than, you know, you would have had iMovie, or Final Cut Pro doing, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, incredibly advanced stuff. And those [unintelligible 00:04:07] use it every day, but nobody goes to YouTube and says, “This is a cloud-based nonlinear editor for video production, and we target cinematographers.” And if they did, they would actually narrow their audience and they would limit what their impact is on the world.And so similarly, I think we look at that for Glitch where the social object, the central thing that people organize around a Glitch is an app, not code. And that's this really kind of deep and profound idea, which is that everybody can understand an app. Everybody has an idea for an app. You know, even the person who's, “Ah, I'm not technical,” or, “I'm not really into technology,” they're like, “But you know what? If I could make an app, I would make this.”And so we think a lot about that creative impulse. And the funny thing is, that is a common thread between somebody that literally just got on the internet for the first time and somebody who has been doing cloud deploys for as long as there's been a cloud to deploy to, or somebody has been coding for decades. No matter who you are, you have that place that is starting from what's the experience I want to build, the app I want to build? And so I think that's where there's that framing. But it's also been really useful, in that if you're trying to make a better IDE in the cloud and a better text editor, and there are multiple trillion-dollar companies that [laugh] are creating products in that category, I don't think you're going to win. On the other hand, if you say, “This is more fun, and cooler, and has a better design, and feels better,” I think we could absolutely win in a walk away compared to trillion-dollar companies trying to be cool.Corey: I think that this is an area that has a few players in it could definitely stand to benefit by having more there. My big fear is not that AWS is going to launch stuff in your space and drive you out of business; I think that is a somewhat naive approach. I'm more concerned that they're going to try to launch something in your space, give it a dumb name, fail that market and appropriately, not understand who it's for and set the entire idea back five years. That is, in some cases, it seems like their modus operandi for an awful lot of new markets.Anil: Yeah, I mean, that's not an uncommon problem in any category that's sort of community driven. So, you know, back in the day, I worked on building blogging tools at the beginning of this, sort of, social media era, and we worried about that a lot. We had built some of the first early tools, Movable Type, and TypePad, and these were what were used to launch, like, Gawker and Huffington Post and all the, sort of, big early sites. And we had been doing it a couple years—and then at that time, major player—AOL came in, and they launched their own AOL blog service, and we were, you know, quaking in our boots. I remember just being kind of like, pit in your stomach, “Oh, my gosh. This is going to devastate the category.”And as it turns out, people were smart, and they have taste, and they can tell. And the domain that we're in is not one that is about raw computing power or raw resources that you can bring to bear so much as it is about can you get people to connect together, collaborate together, and feel like they're in a place where they want to make something and they want to share it with other people? And I mean, we've never done a single bit of advertising for Glitch. There's never been any paid acquisition. There's never done any of those things. And we go up against, broadly in the space, people that have billboards and they buy out all the ads of the airport and, you know, all the other kind of things we see—Corey: And they do the typical enterprise thing where they spend untold millions in acquiring the real estate to advertise on, and then about 50 cents on the message, from the looks of it. It's, wow, you go to all this trouble and expense to get something in front of me, and after all of that to get my attention, you don't have anything interesting to say?Anil: Right.Corey: [crosstalk 00:07:40] inverse of that.Anil: [crosstalk 00:07:41] it doesn't work.Corey: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's brand awareness. I love that game. Ugh.Anil: I was a CIO, and not once in my life did I ever make a purchasing decision based on who was sponsoring a golf tournament. It never happened, right? Like, I never made a call on a database platform because of a poster that was up at, you know, San Jose Airport. And so I think that's this thing that developers in particular, have really good BS filters, and you can sort of see through.Corey: What I have heard about the airport advertising space—and I but a humble cloud economist; I don't know if this is necessarily accurate or not—but if you have a company like Accenture, for example, that advertises on airport billboards, they don't even bother to list their website. If you go to their website, it turns out that there's no shopping cart function. I cannot add ‘one consulting' to my cart and make a purchase.Anil: “Ten pounds of consult, please.”Corey: Right? I feel like the primary purpose there might very well be that when someone presents to your board and says, “All right, we've had this conversation with Accenture.” The response is not, “Who?” It's a brand awareness play, on some level. That said, you say you don't do a bunch traditional advertising, but honestly, I feel like you advertise—more successfully—than I do at The Duckbill Group, just by virtue of having a personality running the company, in your case.Now, your platform is for the moment, slightly larger than mine, but that's okay,k I have ambition and a tenuous grasp of reality and I'm absolutely going to get there one of these days. But there is something to be said for someone who has a track record of doing interesting things and saying interesting things, pulling a, “This is what I do and this is how I do it.” It almost becomes a personality-led marketing effort to some degree, doesn't it?Anil: I'm a little mindful of that, right, where I think—so a little bit of context and history: Glitch as a company is actually 20 years old. The product is only a few years old, but we were formerly called Fog Creek Software, co-founded by Joel Spolsky who a lot of folks will know from back in the day as Joel on Software blog, was extremely influential. And that company, under leadership of Joel and his co-founder Michael Pryor spun out Stack Overflow, they spun out Trello. He had created, you know, countless products over the years so, like, their technical and business acumen is off the charts.And you know, I was on the board of Stack Overflow from, really, those first days and until just recently when they sold, and you know, you get this insight into not just how do you build a developer community that is incredibly valuable, but also has a place in the ecosystem that is unique and persists over time. And I think that's something that was very, very instructive. And so when it came in to lead Glitch I, we had already been a company with a, sort of, visible founder. Joel was as well known as a programmer as it got in the world?Corey: Oh, yes.Anil: And my public visibility is different, right? I, you know, I was a working coder for many years, but I don't think that's what people see me on social media has. And so I think, I've been very mindful where, like, I'm thrilled to use the platform I have to amplify what was created on a Glitch. But what I note is it's always, “This person made this thing. This person made this app and it had this impact, and it got these results, or made this difference for them.”And that's such a different thing than—I don't ever talk about, “We added syntax highlighting in the IDE and the editor in the browser.” It's just never it right. And I think there are people that—I love that work. I mean, I love having that conversation with our team, but I think that's sort of the difference is my enthusiasm is, like, people are making stuff and it's cool. And that sort of is my lens on the whole world.You know, somebody makes whatever a great song, a great film, like, these are all things that are exciting. And the Glitch community's creations sort of feel that way. And also, we have other visible people on the team. I think of our sort of Head of Community, Jenn Schiffer, who's a very well known developer and her right. And you know, tons of people have read her writing and seen her talks over the years.And she and I talk about this stuff; I think she sort of feels the same way, which is, she's like, “If I were, you know, being hired by some cloud platform to show the latest primitives that they've deployed behind an API,” she's like, “I'd be miserable. Like, I don't want to do that in the world.” And I sort of feel the same way. But if you say, “This person who never imagined they would make an app that would have this kind of impact.” And they're going to, I think of just, like, the last couple of weeks, some of the apps we've seen where people are—it could be [unintelligible 00:11:53]. It could be like, “We made a Slack bot that finally gets this reporting into the right channel [laugh] inside our company, but it was easy enough that I could do it myself without asking somebody to create it even though I'm not technically an engineer.” Like, that's incredible.The other extreme, we have people that are PhDs working on machine learning that are like, “At the end of the day, I don't want to be responsible for managing and deploying. [laugh]. I go home, and so the fact that I can do this in create is really great.” I think that energy, I mean, I feel the same way. I still build stuff all the time, and I think that's something where, like, you can't fake that and also, it's bigger than any one person or one public persona or social media profile, or whatever. I think there's this bigger idea. And I mean, to that point, there are millions of developers on Glitch and they've created well over ten million apps. I am not a humble person, but very clearly, that's not me, you know? [laugh].Corey: I have the same challenge to it's, effectively, I have now a 12 employee company and about that again contractors for various specialized functions, and the common perception, I think, is that mostly I do all the stuff that we talk about in public, and the other 11 folks sort of sit around and clap as I do it. Yeah, that is only four of those people's jobs as it turns out. There are more people doing work here. It's challenging, on some level, to get away from the myth of the founder who is the person who has the grand vision and does all the work and sees all these things.Anil: This industry loves the myth of the great man, or the solo legend, or the person in their bedroom is a genius, the lone genius, and it's a lie. It's a lie every time. And I think one of the things that we can do, especially in the work at Glitch, but I think just in my work overall with my whole career is to dismantle that myth. I think that would be incredibly valuable. It just would do a service for everybody.But I mean, that's why Glitch is the way it is. It's a collaboration platform. Our reference points are, you know, we look at Visual Studio and what have you, but we also look at Google Docs. Why is it that people love to just send a link to somebody and say, “Let's edit this thing together and knock out a, you know, a memo together or whatever.” I think that idea we're going to collaborate together, you know, we saw that—like, I think of Figma, which is a tool that I love. You know, I knew Dylan when he was a teenager and watching him build that company has been so inspiring, not least because design was always supposed to be collaborative.And then you think about we're all collaborating together in design every day. We're all collaborating together and writing in Google Docs—or whatever we use—every day. And then coding is still this kind of single-player game. Maybe at best, you throw something over the wall with a pull request, but for the most part, it doesn't feel like you're in there with somebody. Certainly doesn't feel like you're creating together in the same way that when you're jamming on these other creative tools does. And so I think that's what's been liberating for a lot of people is to feel like it's nice to have company when you're making something.Corey: Periodically, I'll talk to people in the AWS ecosystem who for some reason appear to believe that Jeff Barr builds a lot of these services himself then writes blog posts about them. And it's, Amazon does not break out how many of its 1.2 million or so employees work at AWS, but I'm guessing it's more than five people. So yeah, Jeff probably only wrote a dozen of those services himself; the rest are—Anil: That's right. Yeah.Corey: —done by service teams and the rest. It's easy to condense this stuff and I'm as guilty of it as anyone. To my mind, a big company is one that has 200 people in it. That is not apparently something the world agrees with.Anil: Yeah, it's impossible to fathom an organization of hundreds of thousands or a million-plus people, right? Like, our brains just aren't wired to do it. And I think so we reduce things to any given Jeff, whether that's Barr or Bezos, whoever you want to point to.Corey: At one point, I think they had something like more men named Jeff on their board than they did women, which—Anil: Yeah. Mm-hm.Corey: —all right, cool. They've fixed that and now they have a Dave problem.Anil: Yeah [unintelligible 00:15:37] say that my entire career has been trying to weave out of that dynamic, whether it was a Dave, a Mike, or a Jeff. But I think that broader sort of challenge is this—that is related to the idea of there being this lone genius. And I think if we can sort of say, well, creation always happens in community. It always happens influenced by other things. It is always—I mean, this is why we talk about it in Glitch.When you make an app, you don't start from a blank slate, you start from a working app that's already on the platform and you're remix it. And there was a little bit of a ego resistance by some devs years ago when they first encountered that because [unintelligible 00:16:14] like, “No, no, no, I need a blank page, you know, because I have this brilliant idea that nobody's ever thought of before.” And I'm like, “You know, the odds are you'll probably start from something pretty close to something that's built before.” And that enabler of, “There's nothing new under the sun, and you're probably remixing somebody else's thoughts,” I think that sort of changed the tenor of the community. And I think that's something where like, I just see that across the industry.When people are open, collaborative, like even today, a great example is web browsers. The folks making web browsers at Google, Apple, Mozilla are pretty collaborative. They actually do share ideas together. I mean, I get a window into that because they actually all use Glitch to do test cases on different bugs and stuff for them, but you see, one Glitch project will add in folks from Mozilla and folks from Apple and folks from the Chrome team and Google, and they're like working together and you're, like—you kind of let down the pretense of there being this secret genius that's only in this one organization, this one group of people, and you're able to make something great, and the web is greater than all of them. And the proof, you know, for us is that Glitch is not a new idea. Heroku wanted to do what we're doing, you know, a dozen years ago.Corey: Yeah, everyone wants to build Heroku except the company that acquired Heroku, and here we are. And now it's—I was waiting for the next step and it just seemed like it never happened.Anil: But you know when I talked to those folks, they were like, “Well, we didn't have Docker, and we didn't have containerization, and on the client side, we didn't have modern browsers that could do this kind of editing experience, all this kind of thing.” So, they let their editor go by the wayside and became mostly deploy platform. And—but people forget, for the first year or two Heroku had an in-browser editor, and an IDE and, you know, was constrained by the tech at the time. And I think that's something where I'm like, we look at that history, we look at, also, like I said, these browser manufacturers working together were able to get us to a point where we can make something better.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: I do have a question for you about the nuts and bolts behind the scenes of Glitch and how it works. If I want to remix something on Glitch, I click the button, a couple seconds later it's there and ready for me to start kicking the tires on, which tells me a few things. One, it is certainly not using CloudFormation to provision it because I didn't have time to go and grab a quick snack and take a six hour nap. So, it apparently is running on computers somewhere. I have it on good authority that this is not just run by people who are very fast at assembling packets by hand. What does the infrastructure look like?Anil: It's on AWS. Our first year-plus of prototyping while we were sort of in beta and early stages of Glitch was getting that time to remix to be acceptable. We still wish it were faster; I mean, that's always the way but, you know, when we started, it was like, yeah, you did sit there for a minute and watch your cursor spin. I mean, what's happening behind the scenes, we're provisioning a new container, standing up a full stack, bringing over the code from the Git repo on the previous project, like, we're doing a lot of work, lift behind the scenes, and we went through every possible permutation of what could make that experience be good enough. So, when we start talking about prototyping, we're at five-plus, almost six years ago when we started building the early versions of what became Glitch, and at that time, we were fairly far along in maturity with Docker, but there was not a clear answer about the use case that we're building for.So, we experimented with Docker Swarm. We went pretty far down that road; we spent a good bit of time there, it failed in ways that were both painful and slow to fix. So, that was great. I don't recommend that. In fairness, we have a very unusual use case, right? So, Glitch now, if you talk about ten million containers on Glitch, no two of those apps are the same and nobody builds an orchestration infrastructure assuming that every single machine is a unique snowflake.Corey: Yeah, massively multi-tenant is not really a thing that people know.Anil: No. And also from a security posture Glitch—if you look at it as a security expert—it is a platform allowing anonymous users to execute arbitrary code at scale. That's what we do. That's our job. And so [laugh], you know, so your threat model is very different. It's very different.I mean, literally, like, you can go to Glitch and build an app, running a full-stack app, without even logging in. And the reason we enable that is because we see kids in classrooms, they're learning to code for the first time, they want to be able to remix a project and they don't even have an email address. And so that was about enabling something different, right? And then, similarly, you know, we explored Kubernetes—because of course you do; it's the default choice here—and some of the optimizations, again, if you go back several years ago, being able to suspend a project and then quickly sort of rehydrate it off disk into a running app was not a common use case, and so it was not optimized. And so we couldn't offer that experience because what we do with Glitch is, if you haven't used an app in five minutes, and you're not a paid member, who put that app to sleep. And that's just a reasonable—Corey: Uh, “Put the app to sleep,” as in toddler, or, “Put the app to sleep,” as an ill puppy.Anil: [laugh]. Hopefully, the former, but when we were at our worst and scaling the ladder. But that is that thing; it's like we had that moment that everybody does, which is that, “Oh, no. This worked.” That was a really scary moment where we started seeing app creation ramping up, and number of edits that people were making in those apps, you know, ramping up, which meant deploys for us ramping up because we automatically deploy as you edit on Glitch. And so, you know, we had that moment where just—well, as a startup, you always hope things go up into the right, and then they do and then you're not sleeping for a long time. And we've been able to get it back under control.Corey: Like, “Oh, no, I'm not succeeding.” Followed immediately by, “Oh, no, I'm succeeding.” And it's a good problem to have.Anil: Exactly. Right, right, right. The only thing worse than failing is succeeding sometimes, in terms of stress levels. And organizationally, you go through so much; technically, you go through so much. You know, we were very fortunate to have such thoughtful technical staff to navigate these things.But it was not obvious, and it was not a sort of this is what you do off the shelf. And our architecture was very different because people had looked at—like, I look at one of our inspirations was CodePen, which is a great platform and the community love them. And their front end developers are, you know, always showing off, “Here's this cool CSS thing I figured out, and it's there.” But for the most part, they're publishing static content, so architecturally, they look almost more like a content management system than an app-running platform. And so we couldn't learn anything from them about our scaling our architecture.We could learn from them on community, and they've been an inspiration there, but I think that's been very, very different. And then, conversely, if we looked at the Herokus of the world, or all those sort of easy deploy, I think Amazon has half a dozen different, like, “This will be easier,” kind of deploy tools. And we looked at those, and they were code-centric not app-centric. And that led to fundamentally different assumptions in user experience and optimization.And so, you know, we had to chart our own path and I think it was really only the last year or so that we were able to sort of turn the corner and have high degree of confidence about, we know what people build on Glitch and we know how to support and scale it. And that unlocked this, sort of, wave of creativity where there are things that people want to create on the internet but it had become too hard to do so. And the canonical example I think I was—those of us are old enough to remember FTPing up a website—Corey: Oh, yes.Anil: —right—to Geocities, or whatever your shared web host was, we remember how easy that was and how much creativity was enabled by that.Corey: Yes, “How easy it was,” quote-unquote, for those of us who spent years trying to figure out passive versus active versus ‘what is going on?' As far as FTP transfers. And it turns out that we found ways to solve for that, mostly, but it became something a bit different and a bit weird. But here we are.Anil: Yeah, there was definitely an adjustment period, but at some point, if you'd made an HTML page in notepad on your computer, and you could, you know, hurl it at a server somewhere, it would kind of run. And when you realize, you look at the coding boot camps, or even just to, like, teach kids to code efforts, and they're like, “Day three. Now, you've gotten VS Code and GitHub configured. We can start to make something.” And you're like, “The whole magic of this thing getting it to light up. You put it in your web browser, you're like, ‘That's me. I made this.'” you know, north star for us was almost, like, you go from zero to hello world in a minute. That's huge.Corey: I started participating one of those boot camps a while back to help. Like, the first thing I changed about the curriculum was, “Yeah, we're not spending time teaching people how to use VI in, at that point, the 2010s.” It was, that was a fun bit of hazing for those of us who were becoming Unix admins and knew that wherever we'd go, we'd find VI on a server, but here in the real world, there are better options for that.Anil: This is rank cruelty.Corey: Yeah, I mean, I still use it because 20 years of muscle memory doesn't go away overnight, but I don't inflict that on others.Anil: Yeah. Well, we saw the contrast. Like, we worked with, there's a group called Mouse here in New York City that creates the computer science curriculum for the public schools in the City of New York. And there's a million kids in public school in New York City, right, and they all go through at least some of this CS education. [unintelligible 00:24:49] saw a lot of work, a lot of folks in the tech community here did. It was fantastic.And yet they were still doing this sort of very conceptual, theoretical. Here's how a professional developer would set up their environment. Quote-unquote, “Professional.” And I'm like, you know what really sparks kids' interests? If you tell them, “You can make a page and it'll be live and you can send it to your friend. And you can do it right now.”And once you've sparked that creative impulse, you can't stop them from doing the rest. And I think what was wild was kids followed down that path. Some of the more advanced kids got to high school and realized they want to experiment with, like, AI and ML, right? And they started playing with TensorFlow. And, you know, there's collaboration features in Glitch where you can do real-time editing and a code with this. And they went in the forum and they were asking questions, that kind of stuff. And the people answering their questions were the TensorFlow team at Google. [laugh]. Right?Corey: I remember those days back when everything seemed smaller and more compact, [unintelligible 00:25:42] but almost felt like a balkanization of community—Anil: Yeah.Corey: —where now it's oh, have you joined that Slack team, and I'm looking at this and my machine is screaming for more RAM. It's, like, well, it has 128 gigs in it. Shouldn't that be enough? Not for Slack.Anil: Not for chat. No, no, no. Chat is demanding.Corey: Oh, yeah, that and Chrome are basically trying to out-ram each other. But if you remember the days of volunteering as network staff on Freenode when you could basically gather everyone for a given project in the entire stack on the same IRC network. And that doesn't happen anymore.Anil: And there's something magic about that, right? It's like now the conversations are closed off in a Slack or Discord or what have you, but to have a sort of open forum where people can talk about this stuff, what's wild about that is, for a beginner, a teenage creator who's learning this stuff, the idea that the people who made the AI, I can talk to, they're alive still, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're not even that old. But [laugh]. They think of this is something that's been carved in stone for 100 years.And so it's so inspiring to them. And then conversely, talking to the TensorFlow team, they made these JavaScript examples, like, tensorflow.js was so accessible, you know? And they're like, “This is the most heartwarming thing. Like, we think about all these enterprise use cases or whatever. But like, kids wanting to make stuff, like recognize their friends' photo, and all the vision stuff they're doing around [unintelligible 00:26:54] out there,” like, “We didn't know this is why we do it until we saw this is why we do it.”And that part about connecting the creative impulse from both, like, the most experienced, advanced coders at the most august tech companies that exist, as well as the most rank beginners in public schools, who might not even have a computer at home, saying that's there—if you put those two things together, and both of those are saying, “I'm a coder; I'm able to create; I can make something on the internet, and I can share it with somebody and be inspired by it,” like, that is… that's as good as it gets.Corey: There's something magic in being able to reach out to people who built this stuff. And honestly—you shouldn't feel this way, but you do—when I was talking to the folks who wrote the things I was working on, it really inspires you to ask better questions. Like when I'm talking to Dr. Venema, the author of Postfix and I'm trying to figure out how this thing works, well, I know for a fact that I will not be smarter than he is at basically anything in that entire universe, and maybe most beyond that, as well, however, I still want to ask a question in such a way that doesn't make me sound like a colossal dumbass. So, it really inspires you—Anil: It motivates you.Corey: Oh, yeah. It inspires you to raise your question bar up a bit, of, “I am trying to do x. I expect y to happen. Instead, z is happening as opposed to what I find the documentation that”—oh, as I read the documentation, discover exactly what I messed up, and then I delete the whole email. It's amazing how many of those things you never send because when constructing a question the right way, you can help yourself.Anil: Rubber ducking against your heroes.Corey: Exactly.Anil: I mean, early in my career, I'd gone through sort of licensing mishap on a project that later became open-source, and sort of stepped it in and as you do, and unprompted, I got an advice email from Dan Bricklin, who invented the spreadsheet, he invented VisiCalc, and he had advice and he was right. And it was… it was unreal. I was like, this guy's one of my heroes. I grew up reading about his work, and not only is he, like, a living, breathing person, he's somebody that can have the kindness to reach out and say, “Yeah, you know, have you tried this? This might work.”And it's, this isn't, like, a guy who made an app. This is the guy who made the app for which the phrase killer app was invented, right? And, you know, we've since become friends and I think a lot of his inspiration and his work. And I think it's one of the things it's like, again, if you tell somebody starting out, the people who invented the fundamental tools of the digital era, are still active, still building stuff, still have advice to share, and you can connect with them, it feels like a cheat code. It feels like a superpower, right? It feels like this impossible thing.And I think about like, even for me, the early days of the web, view source, which is still buried in our browser somewhere. And you can see the code that makes the page, it felt like getting away with something. “You mean, I can just look under the hood and see how they made this page and then I can do it too?” I think we forget how radical that is—[unintelligible 00:29:48] radical open-source in general is—and you see it when, like, you talk to young creators. I think—you know, I mean, Glitch obviously is used every day by, like, people at Microsoft and Google and the New York Timesor whatever, like, you know, the most down-the-road, enterprise developers, but I think a lot about the new creators and the people who are learning, and what they tell me a lot is the, like, “Oh, so I made this app, but what do I have to do to put it on the internet?”I'm like, “It already is.” Like, as soon as you create it, that URL was live, it all works. And their, like, “But isn't there, like, an app store I have to ask? Isn't there somebody I have to get permission to publish this from? Doesn't somebody have to approve it?”And you realize they've grown up with whether it was the app stores on their phones, or the cartridges in their Nintendo or, you know, whatever it was, they had always had this constraint on technology. It wasn't something you make; it's something that is given to you, you know, handed down from on high. And I think that's the part that animates me and the whole team, the community, is this idea of, like, I geek out about our infrastructure. I love that we're doing deploys constantly, so fast, all the time, and I love that we've taken the complexity away, but the end of the day, the reason why we do it, is you can have somebody just sort of saying, I didn't realize there was a place I could just make something put it in front of, maybe, millions of people all over the world and I don't have to ask anybody permission and my idea can matter as much as the thing that's made by the trillion-dollar company.Corey: It's really neat to see, I guess, the sense of spirit and soul that arises from a smaller, more, shall we say, soulful company. No disparagement meant toward my friends at AWS and other places. It's just, there's something that you lose when you get to a certain point of scale. Like, I don't ever have to have a meeting internally and discuss things, like, “Well, does this thing that we're toying with doing violate antitrust law?” That is never been on my roadmap of things I have to even give the slightest crap about.Anil: Right, right? You know, “What does the investor relations person at a retirement fund think about the feature that we shipped?” Is not a question that we have to answer. There's this joy in also having community that sort of has come along with us, right? So, we talk a lot internally about, like, how do we make sure Glitch stays weird? And, you know, the community sort of supports that.Like, there's no reason logically that our logo should be the emoji of two fish. But that kind of stuff of just, like, it just is. We don't question it anymore. I think that we're very lucky. But also that we are part of an ecosystem. I also am very grateful where, like… yeah, that folks at Google use Glitch as part of their daily work when they're explaining a new feature in Chrome.Like, if you go to web.dev and their dev portal teaches devs how to code, all the embedded examples go to these Glitch apps that are running, showing running code is incredible. When we see the Stripe team building examples of, like, “Do you want to use this new payment API that we made? Well, we have a Glitch for you.” And literally every day, they ship one that sort of goes and says, “Well, if you just want to use this new Stripe feature, you just remix this thing and it's instantly running on Glitch.”I mean, those things are incredible. So like, I'm very grateful that the biggest companies and most influential companies in the industry have embraced it. So, I don't—yeah, I don't disparage them at all, but I think that ability to connect to the person who'd be like, “I just want to do payments. I've never heard of Stripe.”Corey: Oh yeah.Anil: And we have this every day. They come into Glitch, and they're just like, I just wanted to take credit cards. I didn't know there's a tool to do that.Corey: “I was going to build it myself,” and everyone shrieks, “No, no. Don't do that. My God.” Yeah. Use one of their competitors, fine,k but building it yourself is something a lunatic would do.Anil: Exactly. Right, right. And I think we forget that there's only so much attention people can pay, there's only so much knowledge they have.Corey: Everything we say is new to someone. That's why I always go back to assuming no one's ever heard of me, and explain the basics of what I do and how I do it, periodically. It's, no one has done all the mandatory reading. Who knew?Anil: And it's such a healthy exercise to, right, because I think we always have that kind of beginner's mindset about what Glitch is. And in fairness, I understand why. Like, there have been very experienced developers that have said, “Well, Glitch looks too colorful. It looks like a toy.” And that we made a very intentional choice at masking—like, we're doing the work under the hood.And you can drop down into a terminal and you can do—you can run whatever build script you want. You can do all that stuff on Glitch, but that's not what we put up front and I think that's this philosophy about the role of the technology versus the people in the ecosystem.Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time out of your day to, I guess, explain what Glitch is and how you view it. If people want to learn more about it, about your opinions, et cetera. Where can they find you?Anil: Sure. glitch.com is easiest place, and hopefully that's a something you can go and a minute later, you'll have a new app that you built that you want to share. And, you know, we're pretty active on all social media, you know, Twitter especially with Glitch: @glitch. I'm on as @anildash.And one of the things I love is I get to talk to folks like you and learn from the community, and as often as not, that's where most of the inspiration comes from is just sort of being out in all the various channels, talking to people. It's wild to be 20-plus years into this and still never get tired of that.Corey: It's why I love this podcast. Every time I talk to someone, I learn something new. It's hard to remain too ignorant after you have enough people who've shared wisdom with you as long as you can retain it.Anil: That's right.Corey: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.Anil: So, glad to be here.Corey: Anil Dash, CEO of Gletch—or Glitch as he insists on calling it. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me how your small team at AWS is going to crush Glitch into the dirt just as soon as they find a name that's dumb enough for the service.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.4 Press Together The more troublesome the days the more we need each other to survive. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660464865

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.3 Malaise In the early days of the Christian church some members lost all their possessions. But they left erverything behind in order to be together with Jesus. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660438432

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.2 The Struggle Some of the early Christians were thrown into prison. Nevertheless they kept their faith in Christ. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660228582

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.1 A Glorious Beginning The Holy Ghost worked wonderful miracles in the beginning of the early church. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660103619

Series THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 1.THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND TO US Why did the apostle Paul write this letter to the Hebrews? What is his aim? What does he want to tell us? Memory Text: Hebrews 10:36 - For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 1.0 Introduction We want to have a look at those old sermons of the apostle Paul. What a privilege to be able to read these words. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/660093597

Download this Podcast John 20:24–29—Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord! "But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." The post My Lord and My God! appeared first on Getting to Know Jesus.

Series PRESENT TRUTH IN DEUTERONOMY with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 13.THE RESURRECTION OF MOSES Moses is full of love for his people and is richly blessed. Memory Text: Jude 9 - Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you! 13.6 Summary Moses`s resurrection is your guarantee for your future. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/658471375/bfe88ce416

Series PRESENT TRUTH IN DEUTERONOMY with Pastor Kurt Piesslinger, M.A. 13.THE RESURRECTION OF MOSES Moses is full of love for his people and is richly blessed. Memory Text: Jude 9 - Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you! 13.0 Introduction The first resurrection from the dead belongs to Moses. 13.1 The Sin of Moses: Part 1 Loosing control of your temper will lead to tragic consequences. 13.2 The Sin of Moses: Part 2 The greater the person, the worse the results, if he makes a mistake. 13.3 The Death of Moses He died lonely, the servant of the Lord. 13.4 The Resurrection of Moses Inconceivable, a dead person is resurrected to eternal life. 13.5 The Resurrection of us all What happened to Moses, all will experience who love Jesus. 13.6 Summary Moses`s resurrection is your guarantee for your future. My God bless you today and always. For video recording: vimeo.com/658472057/522935b44c

Episode Summary: I don't know about you, but at times my prayer life gets a bit stale. Sometimes, I need to do something to elevate it a little bit and bring new life into my prayers. In this episode, I talk with Janet McHenry about her book, The Complete Guide to The Prayers of Jesus. Janet shares how when she began to walk and pray. It changed her life and it will change yours as well. Quotables from the episode: I began to realize that, you know, that I wasn't the only one who had prayer needs. I could begin to open up my eyes around me and begin to intercede for others in prayer. I've prayer walked around the school campuses, to me that's a huge focus. I prayer walk around the city offices and our county offices, and I know of lot of those people there as well. You begin to become more invested in your community. I remember walking with an elderly friend of mine, her name was June. She passed away some years ago. But well into her 80's, she was still walking. One day she said, even in my own block, she said Janet, who lives there, and I said I don't know and that's a shame. I will find out. I realized as I was reading through the Bible and marking all these various instances in regard to prayer, that really, He (Jesus) is a prayer mentor. Even the disciples said, Lord, teach us how to pray. They didn't know how to pray. They believed but they still didn't know how to pray. I call my life an organic prayer life because it ebbs and flows all day long. Instead of having, thinking like well, I need to have 5 extra minutes today to pray and then check, it's done. I don't think it's done. I think God wants more of us then just 5 minutes of our day. I want the sense that God is glorified because of who I am, not some magic formula prayer that I do once a day. Not some good act, here or there. Not because I may fast, oh my goodness, you know. Jesus simply encouraged us to have time with our Father and to desire that. You know that can be a huge desire of our lives simply to make our life reflective of the Father we love. Jesus embraced the trouble He was in. He still wanted God to be glorified through Him. As hard as that is, I say that's a really hard prayer because we want the bad stuff to go away. We just want to be blessed. Lord, favor me. Lord, bless me. That was never Jesus' prayer. He never said that. He said glorify Yourself in my life. I believe that God wants us to pray big. He says, “with man, this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.” I believe that is a teaching related to prayer. He said ask and you receive. He called people to bigger things, so I think that we are supposed to pray big and expect God to show up. In our inadequacies He will be made known and magnified. I have what I call Prayer Walking Eyes. So, as I see needs, I just immediately pray. You can pray and you know that God will hear your prayer and that it is having an effect. You can be a partner with God in the needs for the people around you, your family, the community.   Scripture Referenced: Matthew 6:9-13 NIV “This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'" 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 ESV "Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." Matthew 27:46 ESV "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 19:26 NIV Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”   Recommended Resources: The Complete Guide to the Prayers of Jesus: What He Prayed and How It Will Change Your Life Today The “Why” Prayer 20 Prayers for Anxiety, Worry and Fear to Usher in God's Peace The Power of Praying in the Courtroom of Heaven Prayer of Trust: The Secret to Emotional Peace How to Use Scripture to Pray through Difficult Emotions – Episode 122 Why Doesn't God Answer My Prayers? Free Download: How To Fight Fearful/Anxious Thoughts and Win Breaking Anxiety's Grip: How to Reclaim the Peace God Promises by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Breaking Anxiety's Grip Free Study Guide Free 7-Day YouVersion Bible Reading Plan for Breaking Anxiety's Grip Hope Prevails: Insights from a Doctor's Personal Journey Through Depression by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Reader's Choice Award Hope Prevails Bible Study by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Reader's Choice Award   Social Media Links for Guest and Host Connect with Janet McHenry: Website / Facebook / Instagram / Twitter / Pinterest For more hope, stay connected with Dr. Bengtson at: Order Book Breaking Anxiety's Grip / Order Book Hope Prevails  /  Website  /  Blog  /  Facebook / Twitter (@DrMBengtson)  /  LinkedIn  /  Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube / Podcast   About Janet McHenry: including the best-selling PrayerWalk and her newest, The Complete Guide to the Prayers of Jesus: What He Prayed and How It Will Change Your Life Today (Bethany House). A former journalist and educator, she now writes full time from her home in the Sierra Valley, where her husband is a rancher and where they raised their four children. She coordinates the prayer ministries at The Bridge Church in Reno, where she annually organizes a prayerwalk for the schools. Janet enjoys connecting with folks on social media and invites others to contact her through her website, www.janetmchenry.com.   Hosted By: Dr. Michelle Bengtson Audio Technical Support: Bryce Bengtson  

For Jesus Followers, God's Grace, Through Jesus, Has Given the Means of Grace and the Hope of Glory MESSAGE SUMMARY: When, on the cross, Jesus cried out: “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46,b), it was the only time, in all eternity that Jesus had been separated from God the Father. Jesus had always known perfect fellowship with the Father; but when He took on all our sin, His fellowship with God was broken. God, the Father, had forsaken Jesus because God cannot have anything to do with sin. Paul, in Romans 5:15, summarizes Jesus' sacrifice and the resulting gift of His Grace available to us from our faith: “But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”. Again, Paul reminds us, in 2 Corinthians 5:21, of the Grace resulting from Jesus' sacrifice: "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.". At the time of His crucifixion, Jesus, who was sinless. Hence, Jesus took on all the sins of the world for eternity. Therefore, we are blessed with God's Grace of Salvation and Eternal Life, as the author of Hebrews summarizes in Hebrews 4:15-16: “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.". Jesus, through God's Grace, has given us the means of Grace and the Hope of our Glory.   TODAY'S PRAYER: Father, I can only bow to you before such unimaginable loss and suffering. I join with Spafford and pray to you: “Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say, It is well, it is well, with my soul.” In your Son's name, amen. Scazzero, Peter. Emotionally Healthy Spirituality Day by Day (p. 105). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. TODAY'S AFFIRMATION: Today, Because of who I am in Jesus Christ, I will not be driven by Past Failures. Rather, I will abide in the Lord's Grace. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5). SCRIPTURE REFERENCE (ESV): Mathew 27:51-52; 2 Corinthians 4:7-15; Romans 4:16-17; Psalms 59a:1-8. A WORD FROM THE LORD WEBSITE: www.AWFTL.org. THIS SUNDAY'S AUDIO SERMON: You can listen to Archbishop Beach's Current Sunday Sermon: “Advent Sermons from Isaiah – Part 4: The King of Assyria – A Sign from the Lord”, at our Website: https://awtlser.podbean.com/ DONATE TO AWFTL: https://mygiving.secure.force.com/GXDonateNow?id=a0Ui000000DglsqEAB

Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and FancyLet Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHINGCOMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school2 (12s):Together. We survived it.1 (14s):You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all2 (21s):Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (31s):Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.1 (1m 22s):It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.1 (2m 4s):And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.1 (2m 47s):I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.3 (3m 10s):I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.3 (3m 51s):Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.3 (4m 32s):So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.3 (5m 15s):Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.3 (5m 57s):You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.1 (6m 9s):And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.3 (6m 23s):It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause1 (6m 41s):Your mom left you a spree for, oh3 (6m 43s):My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.3 (7m 23s):I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.3 (8m 6s):City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I can upgrade to a room. You can bid on rooms on the train, right. Cause it's 10 hours or whatever. And I was like, okay, let me, and they took my bid of, you know, $40 or something to upgrade to a room. And that has all the amazing meals included. So two meals, which lunches, if you just paid for it is 25.3 (8m 49s):Dinner is 45. So I got lunch and dinner free. And I just tipped to the, and it was delicious salmon. I mean like this, and I got my own room and I wrote, and I, I like lived, lived my best life on the train1 (9m 5s):Girl. I need to do this, but I don't live in California. I mean, maybe I'll just pick a, maybe I'll pick it east coast version of that.3 (9m 16s):It doesn't matter. Like you could, you can also take it like they have specials. Like there's apparently a really beautiful ride between DC and New York. So1 (9m 29s):Yeah, no. So I also love or have loved the idea of train travel. And I always really wanted to take, there's a, there's a train that goes somehow through the Rockies. That's the one I really want to go on. But the first time I treated myself to a train trip. Oh, that's right. The worst possible3 (9m 53s):You were pregnant. Right.1 (9m 55s):I was the worst possible route to, we went from Chicago to Texas. So there's nothing to look at. The train was disgusting. It was so dirty and I was pregnant. So my, you know, my sense of smell, which is already very heightened was even, was just off the chain. And as a result of being on that train, I developed3 (10m 24s):Vertigo. I'm like, God, I mean,1 (10m 26s):It was coincidental. I never, we never did figure out what the deal was. But I developed a kind of vertigo when I was pregnant, where I had to crawl on the floor because I couldn't, you know, cause I couldn't walk and thankfully knock on wood that has not returned to me. And it also didn't return to my next two pregnancies, but yet it soured me and us on trains. But I think it's just the route we picked. We need to pick3 (10m 57s):It's the route and yeah, definitely don't have, don't be pregnant, but that's not going to happen for you again. So you don't have to worry about that. But like I'm all done with that. And so I had a great trip and I actually had like these huge realizations while I was there about, about working about money, about the entertainment industry, it was really, it was I, and I went with the intention of really looking at what is it that I'm going for in life? I mean, that's such a huge question, but like what, where am I trying to go? And, and the idea of service, right? So I always thought being of service was about other people, but really what it is for me is being of service in the way that I want to be of service is actually for me, like I didn't realize that I feel is good for my mental, physical, and emotional health when I'm being of service in a way that feels not to pleading, but all, but like really energizing and also like a, like thinking about legacy, I've also been thinking about legacy, like what is my, what is going to be my legacy?3 (12m 12s):And it tied into like, I was really, you know, I spend because the holidays are coming up way too much. It will not wait too much, but a lot of money on my nieces and nephew for Christmas gifts, right? Like thousands of dollars, right. Dish, I love giving gifts. It's my jam. But then I realized that like, and you probably, you know, I'd be so interested to hear what you have to say, but having children, but like a lot of this stuff, I got them, they outgrow, they don't care about very soon is cheaply made and is garbagey. And it has a very, very little lasting effect on their lives. And that's just the truth and I'm not judging it.3 (12m 52s):I'm just saying that seemed, that was the data I was picking up. And I'm like, that's literally like just throwing money away after a while year after year. So there's a, let me get smart about this. So we started a trust for each kid where we put that and I said to that shutter dude, I wish someone had done that for my ass. So I said to them, you can choose, we can keep going the way we're doing with gifts for Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Or you can, we can put donate every year and you could literally get very, very, very few gifts. But your huge gift is that each year we put a certain amount of money. And then basically by the time you're 30, you'll be millionaires.3 (13m 36s):I mean, just because of the way money grows, not even because we're putting that much in. And they were like, what? And so miles really educated me and them on the power of, of the investing money in a way that is with the interest and all that shit. And so that's what we're doing. And I, I got to say like, it tied into this idea of legacy and like, I would watch rather have those kiddos like be able to use it. And it's not like one of these things where they have to use it for college because fuck it, man, not everyone goes to goddamn college right away or ever, but they can't touch it until they're a certain age or they can choose to keep it in there and roll it over to another kind of account or whatever.3 (14m 17s):So, but I'm thinking about this shit differently in terms of legacy based on like, what do I want to leave this earth? Like, do I want to, you know, have, have my legacy be that I gave my, my niece to like a fake Dior ring that turned her finger green or right, right. It's fine. But it's so that's how we started it this Christmas. Cause I was like enough, enough, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what you've just given us here in this conversation is like the center of a1 (14m 51s):Bicycle wheel by the goal wheel. And we have a, there's a bunch of spokes there. There's like talking about what's your purpose in life and where are you going? And there's talking about your legacy and then there's talking about consumption. And then there's talking about instant gratification that we give to kids in the form of gifts. And there's talking about that a lot, the pressures that we put on ourselves on Christmas, I mean just suffice it to say, I have been on the sometimes what feels like the circular journey of, you know, from, I mean, you know, when, when I first had kids, when we first had kids, it was really exciting to give the gifts.1 (15m 33s):It was exciting to create a Christmas that I remember from my childhood, the excitement of coming downstairs3 (15m 40s):And magic magic1 (15m 43s):1000%. And, and that sustained me for the period of time that the kids are literally happy to get whatever the minute it turned. And it turned when the oldest one was not that old. Yeah. I'm going to say like seven. Yeah. Yeah. And he, they had a bunch of presents and they opened everything up. And then he said, is that it? Yeah. And I went, oh damn, we're doing this wrong. We're doing it completely wrong. And so we've had a few Christmases and this is one of them where we're not doing gifts, which is to say, there will be stockings, you know, and maybe one little thing, but we're not doing the multiple presents under the trees.1 (16m 31s):We didn't do multiple Eddy presents for Hanukkah because of exactly what you said, toys is five to 15 minutes of joy for a lifetime, literally a lifetime of trash that I then, then it becomes my job to get rid of organized, find a space for a blood body block. And now the kids are pretty much almost all of them at an age where they don't want any of those things anymore. They want money, they want electronics. They want, so we have the way that we save money for them is not in the, for like Christmas, but that's actually a really good idea.1 (17m 12s):And something going to bring up with my husband and says,3 (17m 15s):Yeah, I mean, for those of us, I think it's a great idea. And also it's so much easier, not easy. Well, I don't know for miles and I don't have kids, so it's not in our face all the time. And we moved away from them. It's a different story when you're in under the same roof with being with children, with beings, small beings that, you know, are you so I, I am very aware that we have like the we're the aunt and uncle to different, it's a different deal. But like we just thought, wait a minute.1 (17m 44s):Yeah. And the thing that you're really after when you give a gift or at least I think is the joy that it brings to the person and, and that's great, but like you're saying most of the time, it's a, it's a very fleeting. And also like you don't want to teach kids that this is the way to direct your joy, right? Like from getting things, right. I'm not saying that that's, that's what you're definitely doing. If you give Christmas present, I'm not saying that. But you know, we just live in this very like consumer oriented culture,3 (18m 17s):The kid's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's a system, it's a systemic situation, but it hit me last. When I really, when I really was like, okay, I want to do this differently. It was last Christmas. My youngest niece wanted and got it is not knocking anyone involved, but it was very clear to me that we, it was really stark about what was going on. She wanted a claw machine, a mini Kalama machine from an arcade that literally just had candy in it, candy bars. And you made this loudest noise you've ever heard, took 10 batteries, 10 big ass batteries.3 (19m 7s):And literally there's candy in it. That's killing us all the sugar and look, you know, whatever. That was the least of my worries. But I was like, this is wait, what?1 (19m 16s):That's interesting. That has me3 (19m 20s):Wait. And it was a, probably a really expensive machine. It's not cheap, but that's what she wanted. My sister got it. And look, I'm not knocking anyone involved, but for me, I was like, it was so, so striking about what was going on. Cause it was so loud and obnoxious.1 (19m 39s):Let me ask you this. What do you remember getting for Christmas? Okay.3 (19m 42s):My favorite thing I ever got, this is so crazy in my life when I was a kid kid was okay. Two things I can tell the first gift that I like went Gaga, Google over was something, it was a makeup kit called fresh and fancy. And it had, it had perfumes. It had, and it was probably, you know, 9 99, 99 at Kmart. But like my sister and I each got one and it, what, what it was, was super fun, super adult, super smelled. So good. And I, there is a picture of me opening it up and in, in my I'm saying fresh and fancy.3 (20m 27s):And then I take the picture.1 (20m 30s):Do you have that picture accessible?3 (20m 33s):Yeah, I think so. I can send it, send it, send1 (20m 36s):It. Yeah.3 (20m 38s):I will send that and to fresh and fancy. Okay. That was number one. And then the second gift I remember as an adult getting that was really moving to was my mother who traveled all the time and who I really sort of labeled as a selfish, kind of a human at times gave my sister and I each a ticket, a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world because she had so many miles. But like the fact that she, she thought about us and the fact that her travel, which as a child brought so much grief to me because she was gone all the time that she was then turning it around and giving my sister and I each a plane ticket to anywhere was really moving to me and also was really abundant and felt like that's awesome.3 (21m 25s):You know, is that when you went to Columbia, that's when I went to Prague by myself for a week and a half, which was insane or two weeks, it was crazy, but1 (21m 34s):Oh yeah,3 (21m 37s):It was in, when I lived in LA, it was a long time ago. So, and I, I, I, it just, so I wish I had gone with somebody else. It was the most lonely, it was beautiful and Prague is crazy and, and fun, but I went alone, but that's like really just indicative of where I was at in my LA life. So it doesn't, that's not shocking to me. What about you? Like, what do you remember being like, oh my God,1 (22m 0s):I got to speak and spell. I, I really, I really coveted speak and spell. And for those of you who don't know a speak and spell is just, would be an app now. And it wouldn't be nearly as fun. This was a self-contained. It was like a really thick version, like a three inch thick version, maybe note or two of an iPad. And it was orange and it had a handle built into the top and it would say a word in a computerized voice, like structure, and then you'd have to spell it. And if you got it right, this is the, so this tells you a lot about my psychology, the high, I got that little sound telling me I spelled something, right.1 (22m 43s):I just felt like I could, I was vanquishing Rome. It was, I felt so powerful that I got a bike one year. That was amazing. And I kind of lip gloss that smelled like root beer.3 (22m 57s):Oh, I know that those1 (22m 59s):Are the things that just like off the top of my head. I remember just falling in love with, and, and being, you know, unequivocally joyful, happy with moments. And that's the thing that you're always after, like for yourself or the people that you love, you want to impart this joy. That's what I was going to get you. Like, you want to impart this joy and then there's this tacit thing about like, you better feel joy from this. At least that's what I find myself, you know, evaluate whether or not this person is feeling joy from it, because that's what I want. I want to give them joy of this present. And then I feel sad if it doesn't work out.3 (23m 38s):Yeah. And, and, and, and, and it, it usually doesn't work out like that only because people aren't mind readers people don't, everyone's different. And Joy's so, so personal. And so, so specific to that person. And it's like, it's just such a setup, but it's also, we keep trying and I'm going to still, I still love giving presents, but I now am like, oh, okay. Can't be for me, like the mass quantity of just, yeah. Crap. Like, it really hit me too. Like I bought one year, my niece was really into Shopkins.3 (24m 19s):Remember, oh yeah. I bought like $200 worth of Shopkins for her.1 (24m 23s): lasted for that year. And then she makes, never picked up shots.3 (24m 29s):Not even the whole year, maybe a month.1 (24m 32s):That's the thing, man. They get, and they get, and I, I, I was going to say, this is especially true for girls, but I'm, I'm going to re revise that because the boys did it too. When they love that thing, it's all they care about. It's their whole world. You know, my daughter said to me all, I, the only thing I want you to get me is just tons and tons of puppets. What's a3 (24m 58s):Pocket.1 (24m 59s):A pocket is a PLA silicone flat toy that has these half hemisphere, a half a hemisphere that you put, like you, it's a satisfying sensation to push it in. And then you flip it over and push it the other way. Shit.3 (25m 24s):What's in that what's in the pocket, like a little creatures,1 (25m 28s):Zero, nothing. It's in the shape of whatever you want it to be in the shape of it's a fidget choice. Essentially. I3 (25m 36s):Understand. It's like an ASMR founding,1 (25m 39s):Totally tile. It doesn't make a sound. It's all about it being tactile. Yeah. And, and, you know, go to the stores and they're everywhere. Puppets. You'll see if you start looking for now, you'll see that they're everywhere. And so that's what she wants. And a half of me completely wants to indulge that wish. And the other half of me says, I'll be throwing these all away in six months. And then I'll feel like an asshole because I spent a bunch of money on something that I knew was a fool's errand.3 (26m 10s):Yeah, I'm right. It's like so hard because they believe they really want it.1 (26m 18s):They really, it's3 (26m 18s):Not, it's not a joke. It's not a, it's not a joke. Like that's their jam.1 (26m 24s):Yeah. So this year we're going skiing for Christmas. That's3 (26m 27s):Our part of New Hampshire.1 (26m 29s):We're going to Vermont. And I think I've told everybody on the podcast I do. That's right.3 (26m 35s):You'd like the ski lodge into, right?1 (26m 38s):Yes ma'am. So I go and I get everybody off in the morning to their little activities and it's as, you know, a huge amount of work, then the gear and the schlepping. So I help everybody get to that. And I get back to my little cozy spot and read and write and just hang out that sound. So I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And honestly, that's the thing that people I I'm banking on. Cause this will be the third time we've done a trip instead of presence. And, and these are trips that we still talk about. So I think it is a good investment experiences are a better investment than3 (27m 14s):I absolutely agree. And I feel like that's the trust starting for these kids. It's like, we're gifting them with the experience of maybe like a down payment on a fricking home, a car to get them from here to there a education, like a real thing, like a thing that you need to like live your life versus a fricking fake Cuban Linx chain. I didn't even know what Cuban links were. I didn't know what was happening.1 (27m 42s):I don't know what that3 (27m 42s):Is. What is Cuban links? I oh, those1 (27m 45s):Big, Easy.3 (27m 51s):And it's just ugly. And it's also $6,006,000. What did Jackie about? Oh anyway,1 (27m 59s):I, you, you just did yourself, such a favor. I mean, you did them mostly a favor, but you did yourself such a favor because also the other thing is, you know, I have experienced, I go out shopping and I'm immediately overwhelmed and I'm trying, okay, now this one, I got this,3 (28m 14s):I asked who gets one and did, is it equal? And like,1 (28m 18s):Oh my God, it's just, it's like a, it's a hell3 (28m 33s):I thought we might start out with, I got some feedback on the, okay. So my, on the podcast from, so my, my parents' best friends, Nancy and Dave, they like helped raise me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've really become like second parents. And, you know, they, they hadn't heard the podcast. So they were like, send us an episode. And I said, okay. And you know, it's always tricky because they really know me. They really know my parents. They really know my life in some ways in my childhood. So I was like, well, so I sent them an episode. I sent them the does small ocean Hooga knocker episode because Dave is a therapist and he works with people with addictions.3 (29m 13s):And I thought, oh, that might be interesting. And so the feedback is so interesting. The feedback I got was I'll read it on air because it's good. It's a podcast. Podcasts was good. Felt like a reunion. Sounds like David was deep into self-destruction before he recovered a talented guy was hoping to hear more from you. But that's for selfish reasons. I like how you identified the macro themes in your Roundup at the end. And then I wrote, thank you so much. We're we Gina and I are always aware that like, like, you know, we don't want it just to be us and we don't want to just to be guests.3 (29m 54s):So we're trying to find a mix. So his feedback it's so funny. He liked, he likes to give feedback. You know, if you and Gina are willing to talk about what life experiences brought you to embrace the arts and try and make a decent living, I liked the way you have reconstructed your family life so that you don't have to be an emotional casualty. There's a lot to talk about how you both learn to think from, from psychodynamic and systems orientation. I don't even know what that means. I'm not smart enough. The best stories are the stuff of good soap operas, good screenwriting can teach people how to better understand and navigate within their interpersonal worlds.3 (30m 36s):I'd like to hear another one, if you don't mind the feedback. So Loves our inter you know, he's, he's a therapist, obviously. So he loves that. But it was interesting. I mean, I seriously don't know what half of that means, but like,1 (30m 54s):No, he just means no, he just means like the thing, I mean here, here's this big secret that we've never told anybody, this podcast is not really about theaters. Right. And so what you saying is the, the, the psychodynamic for, you know, background that we have influences and informs our conversation so that we, we think about things dynamic and that's it. And that would be interesting to a therapist. Therapist thinks about things dynamically too. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it there's so much it's, so there's always so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Like, and I, well, the thing I, this ties into the thing that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, which is that when we first started recording a podcast, it was not, I survived theater school.1 (31m 44s):We were calling undeniable, right.3 (31m 46s):That's right.1 (31m 47s):And we had about eight, you know, hour long conversations that were about this concept of being undeniable. So I kind of wanted to clarify for people who may not know why is our company called undeniable? Why is not the website? Because when you told the great story about it, we didn't never air that till we did. So, no, because it was, it was for,3 (32m 20s):We never found and they tried to send to you and then it got1 (32m 23s):No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying like, we recorded those and then we changed our mind about what the3 (32m 29s):Right. Yes. Okay. Yes. That makes sense. Oh, should we tell the story? Yeah. So it's so funny because I wonder if he ever heard this, if he would even remember, you know, it's so funny, like who remembers telling people what? All right. So the story is this. So I, well, first to say that, like you and I were talking about like, what, what is the thing of life? Like, what is again, where I'm at now, which is what are we going after, right. Like, what is the quality of life that I'm going after that you're going after that we're going after as a team. Okay. So it reminded me of this story of I did a solo show and it was called why not me love cancer and Jack White and the woman who was, and it was a solo show basically about cancer and about working for Nick cage and all kinds of things.3 (33m 19s):Just like I surprised theater school is not about theater. School is not really about Jack White, my show, you know, it's whatever. So, okay. So I'm doing this show. And my, the director of my show is this woman named Alison lion. And she happens to be good friends with the comedian and storyteller and actor, Jeff Garlin who I, I didn't know from Adam, like I wasn't a curb, your enthusiasm fan. So I didn't know, but I knew he of him. And I knew he's like a famous guy. Right. So she said, you know, how would you feel about Jeff? Garlin coming to see a dress rehearsal and giving notes. And I was like, oh, sure. Literally being like, oh, a famous person wants to come see my show.3 (34m 0s):That's cool. You know, not like, what can I glean from this artist? You know, just cause that's, that's where my mind went. I would've have been the same. I mean, I just am not mature enough for whatever, so, okay. So I do the, it was, it, it was real nerve and it was an empty house, but him, he and Alison were sitting up there at stage 7 73 on Belmont in Chicago. And so I did the show and whatever, and it was an okay show. I mean, I look, I don't know, but afterwards, if such an interesting story afterwards, he was giving notes to Alison, but not me. And I thought, well, that's weird, but he was really there for her.3 (34m 42s):That was her mentor kind of, you know, her comedy mentor. But then I came out of the house into the house and met and met Jeff and he was lovely. And he said, well, do you want notes? Or somehow it came up like, do I want actor notes? And I was like, of course, which is shocking to me because I never want notes. Right. And I always say, I would love feedback. And by feedback, I mean, compliments, like, that's my . I did say of course, because that's what you say when a fancy person wants to give you notes. And he gave me some great notes, which was stopped swearing so much. And he compared me to Robin Williams, which was amazing.3 (35m 22s):He said, because I could tell he called him by his first name. I do believe he was like, when Robin would swear a lot, I would know that he was, he was, was dying on stage, was off. Yeah. And I was like, that's fascinating or pushing, like I push when I'm swearing. Okay. Great note. I've I've kept that note and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. So then, then I have to tell us, because it's so interesting because I would have done the same thing. So then after he gave notes, which I kind of blacked out some of them, cause it was a lot, but then he, Alison, we're going to go out to eat at clerks on Belmont, but they didn't invite me. Right. And I was like, oh, and then I was in the bathroom and Alison called and she's like, I'm an idiot.3 (36m 5s):I didn't invite you. Do you want to come? And I was like, oh, of course. Yeah. She, and I think what happens is when you're around famous people, you forget, you1 (36m 13s):Lose your census. It's3 (36m 15s):Very weird. It's a weird thing. I think that's what happened for, so we went to Clark's on Belmont and he, we taught he's so what is he? He's he's a generous. No, he's, he's a big personality. So he takes over rooms. Right? So at clerks, he's the center of the show and it is not anything he's doing. It's just, that's how some people are like,1 (36m 42s):He's not trying to lay low. Right. He's3 (36m 45s):Not trying to lay low. And he also loves people I think, and loves human interaction. I mean, from what I know, as we got into this conversation and somehow, and he said, and he said to me, we were talking about acting and we were talking and he said, I'm going to make a movie and you're going to be in it one day. And I said, that's fantastic. I love that. That's great. That sounds great. And then we talked about other stuff and then he said, you know what you are? And I said, what? And he said, you are undeniable. And I was like, what is even happening? And I was like, okay, thanks. Great. He's like, no, no, no. You're undeniable. Like that show is undeniable.3 (37m 26s):And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, well, it just means that like eat exists in its truest form unapologetically. And I'm totally paraphrasing here, of course. But it was like, it exists in its truest form. It's just is you don't have to like it. You don't have to like, you, you don't have to like what you're saying, but there is a quality that cannot be taken away about the show. It's more than unique. It's more than that. It's undeniable. You don't have to like it. You don't have to dislike it, but it, it exists on its own. And it cannot be basically cannot be fucked with in, in, in that way, you know? And I was like, whoa, that is awesome. And that I feel like is what I'm going for in my life.1 (38m 10s):Yeah. And, and when you told the story before you also said that, that he said, you know, be undeniable continue to be undeniable because that, that is ultimately the only thing that lasts in terms of, you know, the industry or whatever. And as long as you're holding true to, you know, your own undeniable truth or whatever, you can, you know, you can't go wrong. It may not mean that you, whatever, get fame and fortune, but, but you'll be doing, you'll be on the right track.3 (38m 40s):You won't be led astray by your undeniable city. Like you, you won't be, it won't be, you won't go in the wrong direction for too long. If you use an deniability as your north star kind of a thing. And it really, and he, he later told Alison, you know, she's, you know, he kept reiterating like she's undeniable, she's undeniable. And he, and Alison had told me, and I, of course, because, you know, I just figure people say that about everybody analysis and no, he does not do that. And also he stands by his word. So you will one day be in a movie with Jeff Garlin and I was like, cool, great. That's fine. But I it's interesting looking back on the story, it's like, I wish everyone is so scared.3 (39m 24s):Like I wish that I would have used those quotes in my press, but Alison didn't want to use them because she felt she was already asking too. We're all, we always feel like we're asking too much. So she felt that she, she was asking too much just having him come to the show and having him give notes was enough and having him. And I remember at the time I had a musician as part of the show, you know, his name is Philip Michael scales. He's amazing. And he was like, we should totally use Garland's quotes to get more people to come to the show and both Alison and I, it's interesting, both Alex and I were like, oh no, no, no, no, like he's done enough.3 (40m 4s):You know, it's just so1 (40m 5s):Like, yeah. Like, and all I'll do to Alison I would've made probably the same choice, but you know, it's like, what are we so afraid of? What skin is it off of his nose? If you say that he said something that he said, you know what I mean? It's not like his reputation is living or dying on your show. It's just,3 (40m 25s):I mean, yeah. I would have done the same thing too. And I1 (40m 30s):That's the mentality that we've talked about so much on here, and it's definitely true for Hollywood entertainment, whatever, but it may also just be true for life that we kind of inherently have this idea that there's a finite pie. Sure. And you know, it's kind of like the people who think that only whatever 7,000 people are going to heaven, you know, what kind of cockamamie thing is that like you believe in heaven, you believe that all of this is God's plan and that people have been alive for millions of years and yet only 7,000 feet. Right. That to me is like a perfect evidence of the way in which we make ourselves and our, and the possibility so much smaller than they need to be.1 (41m 15s):Yes. So you think there's a finite amount of pie and you say, well, I can't take my one, one thousandths of a sliver, you know, that's Jeff Garlin because then there won't be any Jeff Garlin left. Like that's just simply not how it works. It's just simply, you know, anyway, the reason I said generous is because, I mean, you know, whatever, he has a friendship with her, but, but offering the feedback to you and then offering this truth about identifying your and deniability, which I'm guessing was one is one of the things that you carry with you. Okay.3 (41m 53s):Yeah. I mean, I do think, I do think that he's, that that was very generous of him. Like, and, and I do think that he and I do carry it with me and, and it obviously had an effect on me because I tell the story and because, you know, we, that you and I started a whole company around the idea of being undeniable, but like, and yeah, it, it really was like an affirmation, right. To just fucking pick a side already, like, like take a stand, like do something like th th th the gold boldly in one direction, because this sort of, this sort of, wishy-washy trying to please everybody, it, it, it not only does it not, it's not, it's a totally unpleasant, it actually doesn't work for the thing that you think you want.3 (42m 45s):Like, if you want notoriety power, fame, fortune, you have to pick a side at some point. Okay. But if you also want to feel good and be led, like we're saying by your north star, you could, you could use your, and deniability as a north star to eventually mean that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly to get to a place where you really feel like you're doing right by yourself. If you follow your undeniable, whatever that means to you. So, yeah, he changed my life. Like that changed my life. I mean, the show did the sh you know, looking back on the show, I spent so much money. I would say, like, to be, if I'm completely honest, it was like a $25,000 investment I made over from 2012 to 2015 or whatever.3 (43m 31s):And, and I didn't bring in one dime, you know, I didn't make, make a dime, but it was, I would've done things differently, but I still I'm glad I did it. And, and that's one of the reasons stories. And one of the reasons I'm glad I did it was because I learned that lesson about being undeniable from Jeff Garlin. And yeah,1 (43m 55s):I don't think he went to theater school, but he needs to come on the podcast, you know, tell him that and, and, and hear more about his, his thoughts about, and deniability. So, so that you have shared that story with me, which really even moved me. I mean, it's, it's affected me. And then we linked it to this crooked, let's say path that we made, where we were pursuing this creative, creative career. And then we couldn't pursue it because we needed to make money. And we thought it would be okay to do else. And ultimately wasn't. And so the creative urge or whatever is undeniable in us.1 (44m 39s):And we're basically having to listen to it instead of, you know, pushing it away. And, and we also have a belief that many, many, many people are in that exact same position at this age in life, they were pursuing something. It wasn't financially viable. They had to do something else. And that when, what we're talking to a lot of people about these days is I think a lot of people who come on the podcast are reckoning with that question. Whether it be when we ask them to come on or while we're having the conversation or in the time after.1 (45m 21s):And we hear a variety of things from, from, you know, genuine like bridge equipment is a good example of somebody who went and did something else. And I think she found her thing. Yeah. I feel like therapy. She found the right thing for her. Yeah.3 (45m 37s):And she's now taking classes again, though. Acting classes, remember? Cause she wrote us.1 (45m 43s):Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, all right. So maybe, so maybe so maybe everybody, but what, we also talked to, a lot of people who I feel are trying to convince themselves, us, that they have moved on and you know, what, if that's true for you, I don't want to take that away from anybody, but it's hard for me to believe that's true for as many people as say it is true because if you, right, if you just, if you have, if you're born with this desire to express, and then you don't exp and you don't do it, it doesn't go away. And,3 (46m 19s):And here's the kicker too, is like the secret Willie, we can let everybody in a secret that you and I, because of our childhoods. And then on top of the childhood, the training that we received as actors, and then on top of that, the training we received as clinicians, we are able, here's the secret. We can see things in you that you may not be able to see in yourself or that you think you're hiding. Like that is just the secret.1 (46m 45s):And, and I'll say as a person who is fully does this all the time, nobody's hiding anything. I'm sorry to inform you. Nobody, you whoever's walking around. They're saying nobody knows that I, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yes, they do. I mean, they may not say it to you. They may not even have that thought in the front of their mind to everybody does truly know everything. And you're only kidding yourself, right? To, to hide behind, you know, dishonesty,3 (47m 20s):You're kidding yourself that you were hiding it and you're kidding yourself that other people can't see it. And you're kidding yourself that it's working for to hide it. But it's easier said than done to not hide it. I'm not saying coming out, coming clean about your truth is easy at all. But I just want to say like, cause people always ask like, and I, I run up against this a lot in Hollywood of like, how could you tell that? Like, so-and-so really, didn't like this script. I'm like, dude, body language. Blahbity blah, blah. And they're like, I didn't get that.3 (48m 0s):I'm like, dude, you just have to like, I have training. But also you just have to really, I always say this, but like you have to be sort of a neglected child that then decided that people pleasing was the way to freedom. Then learn that that is actually not true. But then use those skills to actually be like an emotional detective for other people. It's a whole process, but you could do it if you spent enough time, but I can tell like I can, I even at coworking, like I'm going to soundproof booth. So no one could hear me. But like I, I spent five minutes with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they hate themselves. They hate themselves a passion they're pretending not to, but they hate themselves.3 (48m 42s):And that is unfortunate because I know they have redeeming qualities. I haven't talked to them for more than five minutes. So I don't know what that is. And I don't want to talk to them for more than five minutes because I'm not their therapist or friend, but I get it. I get it. It is a super power that I think people who really have trauma and then have chosen to work through the trauma. It's a super power that we have that we can, and it's also can be a burden, like any superpower to really see what the fuck is going on with people and call it out if need be. But we don't always call it out because it's not our job.3 (49m 23s):And you know, that is something we run into on this podcast too. It's like, there are times on the podcast where I want to be like, you know, this is just full transparency where I want to be like, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. Totally terrible. You, you, you hate blahbity blah, but you don't want to tell us you hate blabbity, blah. And I understand that because I've been in the same boat and I still am in the same boat, but just know that if you come on this podcast that it kind of behooves you to just tell the truth because what? Yeah. We all see it anyway. Right, right. We just do. We all see it anyway. Yeah. In your voice, we don't even have to look at your face.3 (50m 3s):Here's the other thing about human experience? So people think, I think because it's a podcast and it's not, we don't air the video that like, they can also hide shit. Well, your voice and the, and the PA I mean, I'm giving away all the secrets here, but there are no real secrets. Like the pauses in between watching the next person we have come on is gonna be like, okay, anyway. So I feel really bad about everything in my life. And I put the pauses, the pauses in between questions and answers. It's all part of the deal. And so I just encourage people. Like, I want you to come on this podcast and feel like you can, that you you're able to be undeniable and FYI on deniability does not mean everything is great about you.3 (50m 48s):Right? Like it doesn't mean, it just means that you're telling the truth about who you are. Good, bad, ugly, weird.1 (50m 56s):Yeah. You, you could be an undeniable asshole. There's no, it's a, it doesn't have a necessarily positive connotation, but you know, if you are an asshole and you're, well, that's not a good example. If you are, if you hate yourself, let's say that's a good example. If you hate yourself, you know, you're never going to get to a place where you don't hate yourself by pretending that you don't hate yourself. You have to start with the idea that, okay, here's what I'm up against right now. Hearn's out. I really hate myself. And you know, and I'm going to have to get real about that before I can, because how could you begin to interrogate a problem that you haven't named at all? That's like, that's like, you know, getting, I don't know that to the end of a math problem without having like what the3 (51m 43s):She's learning a new language without studying one minute of the language in your life. It doesn't, it's not possible. I mean, you might get one word. Right. But by luck. But1 (51m 55s):Yeah. And my thing, and I think this is your thing too in life is just encouraging people and the reason, and I understand why people want to lie to themselves about it because it's painful or because you don't want to be a person who hates yourself. You don't want to be a person who feels unfulfilled by career traces. I get that. But, but it's like that, that you are unfulfilled or you are that you just haven't done the work of accepting.3 (52m 23s):Right. And I, and I, I definitely feel like for me, the turning point, literally in my life had to, had to do with, when I had a physical problem with my heart, where I was like, oh, this is what is happening. I haven't taken care of my body for whatever reason. Not because I'm a bad person, but because I've always shit going on and all these issues and hereditary, but I haven't done the work to, to look at this. And so now it's coming, it's now it's, it's, it's a problem. And, and, and when you're laying in the hospitals hooked up to machines and you and people are telling you, it's a problem that are trained specifically in this problem.3 (53m 7s):And you finally are faced with, oh, either I'm going to believe this or not, and acknowledge it or not. And I just was like, okay, I acknowledge it. I need to lose weight. I need to move my body and I need to eat less shitty foods and okay. That's it. It's in my face. It's in my face. It's in my face. I'm the1 (53m 25s):Hospital. Yeah. My, my wish for it to be something other than it isn't has, it helped me to have it be something other than it isn't. But my, my courage, if, if you can summon the courage to face it, then it might actually be different. So the other thing that you were talking about before was legacy, and that is, that has been a theme in my life recently too, because, you know, I realized after my sister died, like it's all over for her. I, you know how a lot of times when people die, then people will go on their Facebook account and like, write these messages to them.1 (54m 16s):You know, I miss you, blah, blah, blah. No, nobody did that on my sister's Facebook page. Nobody and no, nobody and her kids, you know, who are too young, really to use Facebook there that's because it's an old person's thing, but they have Facebook accounts and they had each written something about their mom when she died. And periodically, I checked back in to see like, what the comments are at for first of all, I don't know, 95% of the people who were making the comments, cause I haven't been in their lives, but it really ended like a few, you know, a few days after she died, it ended.1 (54m 58s):And I just thought, wow, man, there's just no trace of this first. God, I don't like that. There's yeah. It's it's really unsettling. And so recently we came in to possession of unpublished manuscript that Aaron's grandfather wrote on which sirens grandfather, his dad's dad. Okay. Aaron's grandfather was a, you know, hardcore Chicago in, he was a tool and die maker. He worked in one of these factories where whenever there was factories in Chicago and he retired when he was 70, 70 or 75 and went back and went to college and he was the oldest graduate from Roosevelt university where I teach by the way weird.1 (55m 58s):Yeah. And he was a writer and a poet and he wrote a book. Now, dear listeners, I regret to inform you. It's not a great book. You know, he could have used an editor. I'm sure. And, but it doesn't matter. The point is we receive this cream and a half of paper that's wrapped up in like a grocery bag and bound with string and it hasn't been touched3 (56m 34s):How'd you get it? How'd you get it?1 (56m 37s):His mom had it. And she sent him a bunch of stuff in that, and that was in there. So we opened it up and, and I thought to myself, okay, this is fascinating because one of the things that I think compels people to write is a desire to leave some kind of an imprint. And I'm curious how other people think or don't think or feel, or don't feel about their legacy. I mean, I guess people do it in other ways you get really rich and you name a building after yourself or by the way, they took the Sackler name off the mat. Finally they took the Sackler name off the met. Yes. And oh God.1 (57m 18s):Yes. That's a whole other thing. Watch dope. Sick with John who can aprons really good. Yeah. Anyway, people do use philanthropy. I mean, it kind of seems like, unless you're in the arts or rich, how do you have a legacy? What's your, what is,3 (57m 33s):This is a great freaking question. Like this is the question that I really been thinking about in my brain. And I, I think I have the answer for me, but I'm not exactly sure. So, all right. So I love to teach, but I love to teach a very specific population. It's a population that is underrepresented in colleges. So I I'm trying to narrow down like what I want to do with my life basically. And I think I want, I know I want to be a writer, but I was like, okay. But my realtor says I have to make 80 to a hundred thousand dollars if I want a house in California.3 (58m 17s):Okay. And I'm tired of sitting around, waiting for Hollywood to discover me. Okay. Fine. And us. So what do I do? Okay, fine. So then I've been teaching right at Roosevelt and other places and I love it. I love the 1819 year olds. Okay. Fine. I love teaching acting. I don't know. I feel like I don't really know shit about acting, but I know I do when it's mixed with psychology. Does that make sense? Okay.1 (58m 44s):A hundred percent then the other3 (58m 45s):Day I was like, and then I was like, okay, but I don't want to teach at a fancy conservatory. Like I don't, that's just, I just don't. So I was like, all right. All right. All right. So then someone sent me a listing to teach a community college, making a $90,000 a year. Community colleges paid better than a lot of colleges. And so I'm applying to teach first year actors at a community college in Glendale. And I don't know, and I don't know, and I actually think it's going to make my writing. And I think it's going to make me hustle in a different way. I don't know if I'll get the job, but I gotta say my legacy might be, cause I thought, okay.3 (59m 30s):At first I thought my legacy was going to be, and we could track it with the podcast. Right. Like I thought my legacy was going to be famous actor even though like, I don't know if that's, that is a legacy like Brando and you know, that's a legacy. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, that'll be my legacy. I'll be fancy, famous lady. Okay, fine. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, my legacy is going to be that I'm a very sort of famous PR prolific addictions counselor, like at a social service agency. Yeah. That's going to be my legacy, but that's what I thought, like, that's my mark. That's where I'm going to leave my mark. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to be again, a famous actor, but maybe a solo artist. Right.3 (1h 0m 10s):And, and then, and then a screenwriter and I'll get really famous as a television writer, which still could happen. But I was like, I'm not sure that is the flavor of legacy that we're talking. I'm talking about here in terms of service, right. Service. What I want is to teach, I could teach 18, 19 year olds tangible skills that they can use then and move on in their lives and then teach their kids. Like, like that seems more in alignment with what I'm talking about in terms of legacy than just fancy screenwriter.3 (1h 0m 50s):That makes a lot of money. So, yeah.1 (1h 0m 53s):Yeah, because actually I was just having this thought yesterday, if I was ever given an award that was related in any way to theater, the first person I would think is my junior high acting teacher and teachers truly do leave some of the biggest, like good and bad. Some of the biggest legacies. I remember every single teacher I've ever had. Yeah. And w I mean, I mostly remember the ones who were really good or really bad, but they, I can think of five people off the top of my head who should be canonized as saints, because really Mrs. McDaniels, you were a prima ballerina who ended up teaching math in junior high.1 (1h 1m 37s):And you know what she did, she knew that I had just a, I was having a really hard time in junior high. And she invited me to eat lunch in her classroom every day, because I think she was at a Mexican, she didn't eat. And so she could go over the math with me cause I was having a hard time getting it. And I was just having a hard time. Sure. In general, this is seventh grade. And she provided all under the guise of teaching me math. Of course she gave me mentorship. She gave me attention. She showed me love.1 (1h 2m 19s):Right. Like what's3 (1h 2m 20s):What more could you ask for legacy I'm looking for? I'm not, I decided like, especially during COVID times, I've really been thinking, I think a lot of us have about like, what is obviously important, but also what is lasting and what is, and I thought, yeah. Okay. So, so I don't have a desire to like go into the classroom and teach, you know, I don't wanna teach psychology. I don't want to teach, but I was like maybe. And the thing that like the community colleges in California in Southern California, like I believe Pasadena city college and Glendale community college are two of the best community colleges in the country. So I'm like, okay.3 (1h 3m 0s):And it's cheap to go there. And it's a bunch of different kinds of learners and it's not just white kids that are like, I'm fucking going to be the next, I don't know whoever it's like kids that actually want to learn. And I, I mean, look, there's going to be some real assholes in there. I know it. But like I thought, oh, okay. Like also I really, really need a house with a yard. And I don't know how, I don't want to do it by, by getting an office job that I'm gonna die at. And I, and I, and then try to write on top of that.3 (1h 3m 45s):So like, I really need more space. And we were looking at houses and this all really was, was sparked by talking to a realtor, a really great realtor who also was like a very therapeutic and his approach. And he was like, listen, do you want a house in California? Yes. Okay. Do you want a two bedroom, two bath? Yes. This is how much money you each need to bring in a year. And this is how much your down payment is going to be act accordingly. He just told me that like, it's not,1 (1h 4m 16s):It's not a mystery. It's not an unknowable path. It's just like, no, no, no.3 (1h 4m 22s):It's very clear. And he was very loving, but he was also like, you, you piecemealing the piecemealing, your salary together is not going to work for this. And I was like, and I, I needed him to say that too, to know that like, it's time for me to bring in a decent amount of money. Now, if it comes, if it, if, if, if somehow it comes from your mind getting a television show or our documentary taking off. Great. But like, in the meantime, I need to feel like I am, I am not just piecemealing my shit together.1 (1h 5m 8s):Right. Because in addition to all the other things we've mentioned, you have a lot other needs that are undeniable and it is much your responsibility to meet those needs your, your need to have, you know, your own space. You need to have address, you know, that's as important to listen to as anything else.3 (1h 5m 27s):I had no idea. Like I just thought it's interesting. I, I thought that I did not have those needs. Like I thought, who cares where you live literally. I mean, I've moved 15 times. So it's like, who cares if you live in a one bedroom with two people and a dog, I care. I care a lot now I really care. And it's really, really important to me to be out. So having an outside space,1 (1h 5m 55s):And what I hear in this for you is a shift from what does it look like to other people to, what does it feel like inside of me? And it was always more important,3 (1h 6m 8s):More important. And it's also super interesting. And I think we run up against this all the time. People think that they're like, oh, you're not going to be an actor anymore. Like you're not going to audition anymore. And I'm like, I don't think so. It's not like it's like I had the other night. I had the experience. So I get off the train right at eight o'clock the day before I got an audition from my agent for self-tape for a show in Chicago, that's a procedural show, you know, and that everyone auditions for in Chicago. And I got a self-tape quick turnaround. I had to get off and I chose to, I got off the train, dropped my stuff, picked up.3 (1h 6m 50s):My friend came to coworking and was up til midnight filming this scene. It's not a good scene. I'm not good. I'm not good in the scene because I don't, I'm, I'm not, I was having trouble memorizing because it's late at night. And then, and then I turned to my friend and I just said, you know, and, and I'm not paid, obviously we're not paid for the audition. If I book it, I have to go to Chicago on my own dime, stay in a hotel on my own, or place my own plane fare. I hate to fly to do this thing. That's going to terrorize me on set for a day to make $900.3 (1h 7m 32s):What the fuck am I doing? So I turned to my friend and I just said, who was nice enough to stay up with me till midnight, taping this in the fucking coworking space. I turned to her and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she said, okay. And she said, okay. I mean, she doesn't give a shit. She's a writer. She's not an actor. She doesn't, but she's like, okay. And I was like, yeah, this is no, no, no, it's not. That is not my legacy.1 (1h 8m 0s):Right.3 (1h 8m 1s):So it's very clear. So now I'm going to, I'm just, I'm not, I'm having calling my agents1 (1h 8m 8s):And you can't know until, you know, I mean, like that reality couldn't hit you until it did. I'm like, no, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, part of life is figuring out what it's not, and as much as it is figuring out what it is. Yeah. So4 (1h 8m 34s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you. 

Jesus is The Reason For The Season1. God's Greatest Gift To Man – The Gift That Keeps On GivingIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government (Kingdom) will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of PeaceMatt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" (which means, "God with us")2. Jesus Is With Us As A King Bringing The Government Of GodLk 1:30,33 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 33 The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign forever; his kingdom will never endMatt 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth like heaven● God's Kingdom – God's authority, God's rule, God's dominion● Hebrew vs Greek – Don't separate spiritual life and our secular lives● God's will is heaven's kingdom enter every area of our lives3. He Is With Us As Wonderful Counselor – We're Never Without An AnswerJs 1:5 If any of you needs wisdom to know what you should do, you should ask God, and he will give it to you. God is generous to everyone and doesn't find fault with them● Counsel – Gives plans, advice, insights and guides, it brings abundance, safety and victory, it helps dreams come to passIs 11:3 Make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, or hearing of his ears: …Is 46:10 My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish I have planned it, and I will surely do it. 11 I will certainly make it happen; I've planned it; and I will certainly carry it out4. He Is With Us As Mighty God The Powerful Warrior Who Brings FreedomZeph 3:17 The LORD your God is A Mighty Warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with joy; He will be quiet in His love [making no mention of your past sins], He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy● Save - To be open, wide, set free, to be safe, to free5. He Is With Us As Our Everlasting Father, Best Dad EverMatt 27:46 Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)Matt 6:9,31-32 Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?' or ‘What shall we drink?' or What shall we wear? 32 For your heavenly Father knows that you need them6. He Is With Us The Prince Of Peace – Peace Is Coming To My HouseHag 2:9 The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,' says the LORD Almighty. ‘And in this place I will grant peace,' (Wholeness, Favor and Prosperity) says the LORD AlmightyZack 8:9 (TLB) The Lord Almighty says, “Get on with the job and finish it! You have been listening long enough! For since you began laying the foundation of the Temple, the prophets have been telling you about the blessings that await you when it's finished7. He Is With Us As God's Precious Son Who Was Born To DieJn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting lifeRev 5:11-12 I saw and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and elders 12 In a loud voice they were saying: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receivepower, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor and glory and praise

A reading of five poems from five different poets. They are: “Minerva Jones,” by Edgar Lee Masters (from his Spoonriver Anthology) “Ulysses,” by Alfred Tennyson “A London Summer Morning,” by Mary Robinson “A Hymn to My God in a Night of my Late Sickness,” by Henry Wotton “The Lie,” by Walter Raleigh Any comments, or suggestions for readings I should make in later episodes, can be emailed to humanvoiceswakeus1@gmail.com. I assume that the small amount of work presented in each episode constitutes fair use. Publishers, authors, or other copyright holders who would prefer to not have their work presented here can also email me at humanvoiceswakeus1@gmail.com, and I will remove the episode immediately. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/humanvoiceswakeus/support

Old Testament: Hosea 6–9 Hosea 6–9 (Listen) Israel and Judah Are Unrepentant 6   “Come, let us return to the LORD;    for he has torn us, that he may heal us;    he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.2   After two days he will revive us;    on the third day he will raise us up,    that we may live before him.3   Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD;    his going out is sure as the dawn;  he will come to us as the showers,    as the spring rains that water the earth.” 4   What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?    What shall I do with you, O Judah?  Your love is like a morning cloud,    like the dew that goes early away.5   Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;    I have slain them by the words of my mouth,    and my judgment goes forth as the light.6   For I desire steadfast love1 and not sacrifice,    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7   But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;    there they dealt faithlessly with me.8   Gilead is a city of evildoers,    tracked with blood.9   As robbers lie in wait for a man,    so the priests band together;  they murder on the way to Shechem;    they commit villainy.10   In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;    Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled. 11   For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.   When I restore the fortunes of my people,7   when I would heal Israel,    the iniquity of Ephraim is revealed,    and the evil deeds of Samaria,  for they deal falsely;    the thief breaks in,    and the bandits raid outside.2   But they do not consider    that I remember all their evil.  Now their deeds surround them;    they are before my face.3   By their evil they make the king glad,    and the princes by their treachery.4   They are all adulterers;    they are like a heated oven  whose baker ceases to stir the fire,    from the kneading of the dough    until it is leavened.5   On the day of our king, the princes    became sick with the heat of wine;    he stretched out his hand with mockers.6   For with hearts like an oven they approach their intrigue;    all night their anger smolders;    in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.7   All of them are hot as an oven,    and they devour their rulers.  All their kings have fallen,    and none of them calls upon me. 8   Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples;    Ephraim is a cake not turned.9   Strangers devour his strength,    and he knows it not;  gray hairs are sprinkled upon him,    and he knows it not.10   The pride of Israel testifies to his face;2    yet they do not return to the LORD their God,    nor seek him, for all this. 11   Ephraim is like a dove,    silly and without sense,    calling to Egypt, going to Assyria.12   As they go, I will spread over them my net;    I will bring them down like birds of the heavens;    I will discipline them according to the report made to their congregation.13   Woe to them, for they have strayed from me!    Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against me!  I would redeem them,    but they speak lies against me. 14   They do not cry to me from the heart,    but they wail upon their beds;  for grain and wine they gash themselves;    they rebel against me.15   Although I trained and strengthened their arms,    yet they devise evil against me.16   They return, but not upward;3    they are like a treacherous bow;  their princes shall fall by the sword    because of the insolence of their tongue.  This shall be their derision in the land of Egypt. Israel Will Reap the Whirlwind 8   Set the trumpet to your lips!    One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD,  because they have transgressed my covenant    and rebelled against my law.2   To me they cry,    “My God, we—Israel—know you.”3   Israel has spurned the good;    the enemy shall pursue him. 4   They made kings, but not through me.    They set up princes, but I knew it not.  With their silver and gold they made idols    for their own destruction.5   I have4 spurned your calf, O Samaria.    My anger burns against them.  How long will they be incapable of innocence?6   For it is from Israel;  a craftsman made it;    it is not God.  The calf of Samaria    shall be broken to pieces.5 7   For they sow the wind,    and they shall reap the whirlwind.  The standing grain has no heads;    it shall yield no flour;  if it were to yield,    strangers would devour it.8   Israel is swallowed up;    already they are among the nations    as a useless vessel.9   For they have gone up to Assyria,    a wild donkey wandering alone;    Ephraim has hired lovers.10   Though they hire allies among the nations,    I will soon gather them up.  And the king and princes shall soon writhe    because of the tribute. 11   Because Ephraim has multiplied altars for sinning,    they have become to him altars for sinning.12   Were I to write for him my laws by the ten thousands,    they would be regarded as a strange thing.13   As for my sacrificial offerings,    they sacrifice meat and eat it,    but the LORD does not accept them.  Now he will remember their iniquity    and punish their sins;    they shall return to Egypt.14   For Israel has forgotten his Maker    and built palaces,  and Judah has multiplied fortified cities;    so I will send a fire upon his cities,    and it shall devour her strongholds. The Lord Will Punish Israel 9   Rejoice not, O Israel!    Exult not like the peoples;  for you have played the whore, forsaking your God.    You have loved a prostitute's wages    on all threshing floors.2   Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,    and the new wine shall fail them.3   They shall not remain in the land of the LORD,    but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,    and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria. 4   They shall not pour drink offerings of wine to the LORD,    and their sacrifices shall not please him.  It shall be like mourners' bread to them;    all who eat of it shall be defiled;  for their bread shall be for their hunger only;    it shall not come to the house of the LORD. 5   What will you do on the day of the appointed festival,    and on the day of the feast of the LORD?6   For behold, they are going away from destruction;    but Egypt shall gather them;    Memphis shall bury them.  Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver;    thorns shall be in their tents. 7   The days of punishment have come;    the days of recompense have come;    Israel shall know it.  The prophet is a fool;    the man of the spirit is mad,  because of your great iniquity    and great hatred.8   The prophet is the watchman of Ephraim with my God;  yet a fowler's snare is on all his ways,    and hatred in the house of his God.9   They have deeply corrupted themselves    as in the days of Gibeah:  he will remember their iniquity;    he will punish their sins. 10   Like grapes in the wilderness,    I found Israel.  Like the first fruit on the fig tree    in its first season,    I saw your fathers.  But they came to Baal-peor    and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame,    and became detestable like the thing they loved.11   Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird—    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception!12   Even if they bring up children,    I will bereave them till none is left.  Woe to them    when I depart from them!13   Ephraim, as I have seen, was like a young palm6 planted in a meadow;    but Ephraim must lead his children out to slaughter.714   Give them, O LORD—    what will you give?  Give them a miscarrying womb    and dry breasts. 15   Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal;    there I began to hate them.  Because of the wickedness of their deeds    I will drive them out of my house.  I will love them no more;    all their princes are rebels. 16   Ephraim is stricken;    their root is dried up;    they shall bear no fruit.  Even though they give birth,    I will put their beloved children to death.17   My God will reject them    because they have not listened to him;    they shall be wanderers among the nations. Footnotes [1] 6:6 Septuagint mercy [2] 7:10 Or in his presence [3] 7:16 Or to the Most High [4] 8:5 Hebrew He has [5] 8:6 Or shall go up in flames [6] 9:13 Or like Tyre [7] 9:13 Hebrew to him who slaughters (ESV) New Testament: John 11:1–54 John 11:1–54 (Listen) The Death of Lazarus 11 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when he heard that Lazarus1 was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin,2 said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” I Am the Resurrection and the Life 17 Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles3 off, 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, but Mary remained seated in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.4 Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.” Jesus Weeps 28 When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she rose quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the village, but was still in the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary rise quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 Now when Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved5 in his spirit and greatly troubled. 34 And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus wept. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man also have kept this man from dying?” Jesus Raises Lazarus 38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these thi

Old Testament: Hosea 6–9 Hosea 6–9 (Listen) Israel and Judah Are Unrepentant 6   “Come, let us return to the LORD;    for he has torn us, that he may heal us;    he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.2   After two days he will revive us;    on the third day he will raise us up,    that we may live before him.3   Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD;    his going out is sure as the dawn;  he will come to us as the showers,    as the spring rains that water the earth.” 4   What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?    What shall I do with you, O Judah?  Your love is like a morning cloud,    like the dew that goes early away.5   Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;    I have slain them by the words of my mouth,    and my judgment goes forth as the light.6   For I desire steadfast love1 and not sacrifice,    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7   But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;    there they dealt faithlessly with me.8   Gilead is a city of evildoers,    tracked with blood.9   As robbers lie in wait for a man,    so the priests band together;  they murder on the way to Shechem;    they commit villainy.10   In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;    Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled. 11   For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.   When I restore the fortunes of my people,7   when I would heal Israel,    the iniquity of Ephraim is revealed,    and the evil deeds of Samaria,  for they deal falsely;    the thief breaks in,    and the bandits raid outside.2   But they do not consider    that I remember all their evil.  Now their deeds surround them;    they are before my face.3   By their evil they make the king glad,    and the princes by their treachery.4   They are all adulterers;    they are like a heated oven  whose baker ceases to stir the fire,    from the kneading of the dough    until it is leavened.5   On the day of our king, the princes    became sick with the heat of wine;    he stretched out his hand with mockers.6   For with hearts like an oven they approach their intrigue;    all night their anger smolders;    in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.7   All of them are hot as an oven,    and they devour their rulers.  All their kings have fallen,    and none of them calls upon me. 8   Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples;    Ephraim is a cake not turned.9   Strangers devour his strength,    and he knows it not;  gray hairs are sprinkled upon him,    and he knows it not.10   The pride of Israel testifies to his face;2    yet they do not return to the LORD their God,    nor seek him, for all this. 11   Ephraim is like a dove,    silly and without sense,    calling to Egypt, going to Assyria.12   As they go, I will spread over them my net;    I will bring them down like birds of the heavens;    I will discipline them according to the report made to their congregation.13   Woe to them, for they have strayed from me!    Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against me!  I would redeem them,    but they speak lies against me. 14   They do not cry to me from the heart,    but they wail upon their beds;  for grain and wine they gash themselves;    they rebel against me.15   Although I trained and strengthened their arms,    yet they devise evil against me.16   They return, but not upward;3    they are like a treacherous bow;  their princes shall fall by the sword    because of the insolence of their tongue.  This shall be their derision in the land of Egypt. Israel Will Reap the Whirlwind 8   Set the trumpet to your lips!    One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD,  because they have transgressed my covenant    and rebelled against my law.2   To me they cry,    “My God, we—Israel—know you.”3   Israel has spurned the good;    the enemy shall pursue him. 4   They made kings, but not through me.    They set up princes, but I knew it not.  With their silver and gold they made idols    for their own destruction.5   I have4 spurned your calf, O Samaria.    My anger burns against them.  How long will they be incapable of innocence?6   For it is from Israel;  a craftsman made it;    it is not God.  The calf of Samaria    shall be broken to pieces.5 7   For they sow the wind,    and they shall reap the whirlwind.  The standing grain has no heads;    it shall yield no flour;  if it were to yield,    strangers would devour it.8   Israel is swallowed up;    already they are among the nations    as a useless vessel.9   For they have gone up to Assyria,    a wild donkey wandering alone;    Ephraim has hired lovers.10   Though they hire allies among the nations,    I will soon gather them up.  And the king and princes shall soon writhe    because of the tribute. 11   Because Ephraim has multiplied altars for sinning,    they have become to him altars for sinning.12   Were I to write for him my laws by the ten thousands,    they would be regarded as a strange thing.13   As for my sacrificial offerings,    they sacrifice meat and eat it,    but the LORD does not accept them.  Now he will remember their iniquity    and punish their sins;    they shall return to Egypt.14   For Israel has forgotten his Maker    and built palaces,  and Judah has multiplied fortified cities;    so I will send a fire upon his cities,    and it shall devour her strongholds. The Lord Will Punish Israel 9   Rejoice not, O Israel!    Exult not like the peoples;  for you have played the whore, forsaking your God.    You have loved a prostitute's wages    on all threshing floors.2   Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,    and the new wine shall fail them.3   They shall not remain in the land of the LORD,    but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,    and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria. 4   They shall not pour drink offerings of wine to the LORD,    and their sacrifices shall not please him.  It shall be like mourners' bread to them;    all who eat of it shall be defiled;  for their bread shall be for their hunger only;    it shall not come to the house of the LORD. 5   What will you do on the day of the appointed festival,    and on the day of the feast of the LORD?6   For behold, they are going away from destruction;    but Egypt shall gather them;    Memphis shall bury them.  Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver;    thorns shall be in their tents. 7   The days of punishment have come;    the days of recompense have come;    Israel shall know it.  The prophet is a fool;    the man of the spirit is mad,  because of your great iniquity    and great hatred.8   The prophet is the watchman of Ephraim with my God;  yet a fowler's snare is on all his ways,    and hatred in the house of his God.9   They have deeply corrupted themselves    as in the days of Gibeah:  he will remember their iniquity;    he will punish their sins. 10   Like grapes in the wilderness,    I found Israel.  Like the first fruit on the fig tree    in its first season,    I saw your fathers.  But they came to Baal-peor    and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame,    and became detestable like the thing they loved.11   Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird—    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception!12   Even if they bring up children,    I will bereave them till none is left.  Woe to them    when I depart from them!13   Ephraim, as I have seen, was like a young palm6 planted in a meadow;    but Ephraim must lead his children out to slaughter.714   Give them, O LORD—    what will you give?  Give them a miscarrying womb    and dry breasts. 15   Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal;    there I began to hate them.  Because of the wickedness of their deeds    I will drive them out of my house.  I will love them no more;    all their princes are rebels. 16   Ephraim is stricken;    their root is dried up;    they shall bear no fruit.  Even though they give birth,    I will put their beloved children to death.17   My God will reject them    because they have not listened to him;    they shall be wanderers among the nations. Footnotes [1] 6:6 Septuagint mercy [2] 7:10 Or in his presence [3] 7:16 Or to the Most High [4] 8:5 Hebrew He has [5] 8:6 Or shall go up in flames [6] 9:13 Or like Tyre [7] 9:13 Hebrew to him who slaughters (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 137 Psalm 137 (Listen) How Shall We Sing the Lord's Song? 137   By the waters of Babylon,    there we sat down and wept,    when we remembered Zion.2   On the willows1 there    we hung up our lyres.3   For there our captors    required of us songs,  and our tormentors, mirth, saying,    “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” 4   How shall we sing the LORD's song    in a foreign land?5   If I forget you, O Jerusalem,    let my right hand forget its skill!6   Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,    if I do not remember you,  if I do not set Jerusalem    above my highest joy! 7   Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites    the day of Jerusalem,  how they said, “Lay it bare, lay it bare,    down to its foundations!”8   O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,    blessed shall he be who repays you    with what you have done to us!9   Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones    and dashes them against the rock! Footnotes [1] 137:2 Or poplars (ESV) New Testament: 1 Peter 3–5 1 Peter 3–5 (Listen) Wives and Husbands 3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. 7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you1 of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. Suffering for Righteousness' Sake 8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10 For   “Whoever desires to love life    and see good days,  let him keep his tongue from evil    and his lips from speaking deceit;11   let him turn away from evil and do good;    let him seek peace and pursue it.12   For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,    and his ears are open to their prayer.  But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

3 Advent First Psalm: Psalm 50 Psalm 50 (Listen) God Himself Is Judge A Psalm of Asaph. 50   The Mighty One, God the LORD,    speaks and summons the earth    from the rising of the sun to its setting.2   Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty,    God shines forth. 3   Our God comes; he does not keep silence;1    before him is a devouring fire,    around him a mighty tempest.4   He calls to the heavens above    and to the earth, that he may judge his people:5   “Gather to me my faithful ones,    who made a covenant with me by sacrifice!”6   The heavens declare his righteousness,    for God himself is judge! Selah 7   “Hear, O my people, and I will speak;    O Israel, I will testify against you.    I am God, your God.8   Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;    your burnt offerings are continually before me.9   I will not accept a bull from your house    or goats from your folds.10   For every beast of the forest is mine,    the cattle on a thousand hills.11   I know all the birds of the hills,    and all that moves in the field is mine. 12   “If I were hungry, I would not tell you,    for the world and its fullness are mine.13   Do I eat the flesh of bulls    or drink the blood of goats?14   Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,2    and perform your vows to the Most High,15   and call upon me in the day of trouble;    I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.” 16   But to the wicked God says:    “What right have you to recite my statutes    or take my covenant on your lips?17   For you hate discipline,    and you cast my words behind you.18   If you see a thief, you are pleased with him,    and you keep company with adulterers. 19   “You give your mouth free rein for evil,    and your tongue frames deceit.20   You sit and speak against your brother;    you slander your own mother's son.21   These things you have done, and I have been silent;    you thought that I3 was one like yourself.  But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. 22   “Mark this, then, you who forget God,    lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!23   The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me;    to one who orders his way rightly    I will show the salvation of God!” Footnotes [1] 50:3 Or May our God come, and not keep silence [2] 50:14 Or Make thanksgiving your sacrifice to God [3] 50:21 Or that the I am (ESV) Second Psalm: Psalm 33; Psalms 59–60 Psalm 33 (Listen) The Steadfast Love of the Lord 33   Shout for joy in the LORD, O you righteous!    Praise befits the upright.2   Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;    make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!3   Sing to him a new song;    play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts. 4   For the word of the LORD is upright,    and all his work is done in faithfulness.5   He loves righteousness and justice;    the earth is full of the steadfast love of the LORD. 6   By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,    and by the breath of his mouth all their host.7   He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap;    he puts the deeps in storehouses. 8   Let all the earth fear the LORD;    let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!9   For he spoke, and it came to be;    he commanded, and it stood firm. 10   The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;    he frustrates the plans of the peoples.11   The counsel of the LORD stands forever,    the plans of his heart to all generations.12   Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,    the people whom he has chosen as his heritage! 13   The LORD looks down from heaven;    he sees all the children of man;14   from where he sits enthroned he looks out    on all the inhabitants of the earth,15   he who fashions the hearts of them all    and observes all their deeds.16   The king is not saved by his great army;    a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.17   The war horse is a false hope for salvation,    and by its great might it cannot rescue. 18   Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear him,    on those who hope in his steadfast love,19   that he may deliver their soul from death    and keep them alive in famine. 20   Our soul waits for the LORD;    he is our help and our shield.21   For our heart is glad in him,    because we trust in his holy name.22   Let your steadfast love, O LORD, be upon us,    even as we hope in you. (ESV) Psalms 59–60 (Listen) Deliver Me from My Enemies To the choirmaster: according to Do Not Destroy. A Miktam1 of David, when Saul sent men to watch his house in order to kill him. 59   Deliver me from my enemies, O my God;    protect me from those who rise up against me;2   deliver me from those who work evil,    and save me from bloodthirsty men. 3   For behold, they lie in wait for my life;    fierce men stir up strife against me.  For no transgression or sin of mine, O LORD,4     for no fault of mine, they run and make ready.  Awake, come to meet me, and see!5     You, LORD God of hosts, are God of Israel.  Rouse yourself to punish all the nations;    spare none of those who treacherously plot evil. Selah 6   Each evening they come back,    howling like dogs    and prowling about the city.7   There they are, bellowing with their mouths    with swords in their lips—    for “Who,” they think,2 “will hear us?” 8   But you, O LORD, laugh at them;    you hold all the nations in derision.9   O my Strength, I will watch for you,    for you, O God, are my fortress.10   My God in his steadfast love3 will meet me;    God will let me look in triumph on my enemies. 11   Kill them not, lest my people forget;    make them totter4 by your power and bring them down,    O Lord, our shield!12   For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips,    let them be trapped in their pride.  For the cursing and lies that they utter,13     consume them in wrath;    consume them till they are no more,  that they may know that God rules over Jacob    to the ends of the earth. Selah 14   Each evening they come back,    howling like dogs    and prowling about the city.15   They wander about for food    and growl if they do not get their fill. 16   But I will sing of your strength;    I will sing aloud of your steadfast love in the morning.  For you have been to me a fortress    and a refuge in the day of my distress.17   O my Strength, I will sing praises to you,    for you, O God, are my fortress,    the God who shows me steadfast love. He Will Tread Down Our Foes To the choirmaster: according to Shushan Eduth. A Miktam5 of David; for instruction; when he strove with Aram-naharaim and with Aram-zobah, and when Joab on his return struck down twelve thousand of Edom in the Valley of Salt. 60   O God, you have rejected us, broken our defenses;    you have been angry; oh, restore us.2   You have made the land to quake; you have torn it open;    repair its breaches, for it totters.3   You have made your people see hard things;    you have given us wine to drink that made us stagger. 4   You have set up a banner for those who fear you,    that they may flee to it from the bow.6 Selah5   That your beloved ones may be delivered,    give salvation by your right hand and answer us! 6   God has spoken in his holiness:7    “With exultation I will divide up Shechem    and portion out the Vale of Succoth.7   Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine;    Ephraim is my helmet;    Judah is my scepter.8   Moab is my washbasin;    upon Edom I cast my shoe;    over Philistia I shout in triumph.”8 9   Who will bring me to the fortified city?    Who will lead me to Edom?10   Have you not rejected us, O God?    You do not go forth, O God, with our armies.11   Oh, grant us help against the foe,    for vain is the salvation of man!12   With God we shall do valiantly;    it is he who will tread down our foes. Footnotes [1] 59:1 Probably a musical or liturgical term [2] 59:7 Hebrew lacks they think [3] 59:10 Or The God who shows me steadfast love [4] 59:11 Or wander [5] 60:1 Probably musical or liturgical terms [6] 60:4 Or that it may be displayed because of truth [7] 60:6 Or sanctuary [8] 60:8 Revocalization (compare Psalm 108:10); Masoretic Text over me, O Philistia, shout in triumph (ESV) Old Testament: Zechariah 4 Zechariah 4 (Listen) A Vision of a Golden Lampstand 4 And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3 And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.” 4 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts. 7 Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!'” 8 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice, and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. “These seven are the eyes of the LORD, which range through the whole earth.” 11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?” 12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil1 is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones2 who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” Footnotes [1] 4:12 Hebrew lacks oil [2] 4:14 Hebrew two sons of new oil (ESV) New Testament: Revelation 4:9–5:5 Revelation 4:9–5:5 (Listen) 9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11   “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,    to receive glory and honor and power,  for you created all things,    and by your will they existed and were created.” The Scroll and the Lamb 5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, 4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” (ESV) Gospel: Matthew 25:1–13 Matthew 25:1–13 (Listen) The Parable of the Ten Virgins 25 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps1 and went to meet the bridegroom.2 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.' 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.' 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. Footnotes [1] 25:1 Or torches

Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.2 (36s):It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,1 (41s):But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.2 (46s):Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And1 (1m 0s):Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?2 (1m 5s):The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,1 (1m 14s):It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.2 (1m 18s):Yeah. What's the for you.1 (1m 19s):Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.2 (1m 56s):Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,1 (1m 60s):When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?2 (2m 32s):Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,1 (2m 42s):Yeah,2 (2m 43s):It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.1 (2m 55s):It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.1 (3m 35s):But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?1 (4m 18s):I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?1 (5m 1s):What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?1 (5m 45s):And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.1 (6m 29s):The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,2 (6m 37s):Wow. Oh,1 (6m 38s):Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.1 (7m 19s):It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,2 (7m 28s):That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.2 (8m 10s):I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.1 (8m 32s):Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.1 (9m 15s):Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.1 (9m 57s):I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.1 (10m 40s):And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?2 (11m 4s):Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.1 (11m 10s):What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?2 (11m 17s):Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.2 (12m 0s):And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.2 (12m 43s):Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.2 (13m 26s):Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,1 (13m 32s):No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like2 (14m 12s):You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.1 (14m 16s):There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.1 (15m 2s):And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.2 (15m 20s):Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.2 (16m 1s):I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether1 (16m 10s):I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.1 (16m 54s):And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.1 (17m 34s):So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this2 (17m 42s):And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.1 (17m 52s):You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.1 (18m 32s):You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.2 (19m 0s):Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.2 (19m 43s):And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.2 (20m 24s):The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.2 (21m 5s):There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that1 (21m 23s):More, or no, you just left it at that.2 (21m 29s):Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So1 (21m 46s):Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.2 (21m 54s):Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,1 (21m 60s):Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.1 (22m 53s):And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take2 (23m 17s):Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think1 (23m 20s):Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.2 (23m 25s):Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.1 (23m 41s):So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.1 (24m 33s):Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. that's the truth.2 (24m 42s):Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.1 (25m 3s):Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean2 (25m 44s):That they're not1 (25m 45s):At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.2 (26m 17s):If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.1 (26m 22s):It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.2 (26m 47s):Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,1 (27m 7s):Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,2 (27m 36s):Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another1 (27m 46s):It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.2 (28m 7s):Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.1 (28m 11s):I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago2 (28m 33s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.0 (29m 1s):Well,2 (29m 22s):Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads1 (29m 33s):And theater. I started out in biology.2 (29m 37s):Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get4 (29m 41s):My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.2 (30m 5s):Much more fun than actually being4 (30m 7s):A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,2 (30m 13s):But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.4 (30m 21s):Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.4 (31m 9s):So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?4 (31m 55s):We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.4 (32m 48s):She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.2 (33m 29s):That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or4 (33m 46s):Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.5 (34m 23s):That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.4 (34m 48s):Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.4 (35m 30s):And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.4 (36m 10s):So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,2 (36m 38s):Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?4 (36m 59s):Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,5 (37m 23s):Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old4 (37m 27s):Were you? I was 19.5 (37m 30s):Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?4 (37m 33s):I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,5 (37m 55s):I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.4 (38m 29s):Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.2 (38m 60s):Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or4 (39m 9s):So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.4 (39m 49s):So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great5 (40m 13s):Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how4 (40m 33s):Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.2 (41m 13s):Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help4 (41m 30s):You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.2 (41m 52s):It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious4 (42m 2s):Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but5 (42m 25s):Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.5 (43m 8s):And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?4 (43m 16s):I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.4 (43m 58s):And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So2 (44m 8s):That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're4 (44m 11s):Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.2 (44m 14s):So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?4 (44m 29s):It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.4 (45m 9s):And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.4 (45m 54s):So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.4 (46m 37s):And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.4 (47m 19s):And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.5 (47m 35s):It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.4 (48m 19s):Yeah. Yeah. It's5 (48m 22s):That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.4 (48m 29s):I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.4 (49m 12s):You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.4 (50m 0s):And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?5 (50m 15s):And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,4 (50m 20s):I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not5 (50m 53s):That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and4 (51m 29s):It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch2 (51m 40s):Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.4 (51m 45s):Okay. Not in my experience.2 (51m 49s):So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.4 (51m 59s):I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.4 (52m 42s):And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.5 (53m 11s):What a relief.4 (53m 12s):Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was5 (53m 25s):So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical4 (53m 30s):Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?5 (53m 37s):My God.2 (53m 38s):Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.2 (54m 18s):You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.4 (54m 29s):Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and5 (54m 50s):You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?4 (55m 8s):Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.4 (55m 48s):Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.4 (56m 28s):I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.4 (57m 17s):They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.4 (58m 3s):They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.4 (58m 43s):And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.4 (59m 24s):So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then5 (59m 31s):How did you do it? Did you get help?4 (59m 34s):Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,5 (1h 0m 8s):Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.5 (1h 0m 51s):Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?4 (1h 0m 60s):So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.4 (1h 1m 48s):It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.4 (1h 2m 33s):Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.4 (1h 3m 16s):Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,2 (1h 3m 40s):Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?4 (1h 4m 8s):I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.4 (1h 4m 49s):So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.2 (1h 5m 11s):God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.2 (1h 5m 53s):No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.5 (1h 5m 57s):And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.5 (1h 6m 41s):Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?4 (1h 6m 56s):Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.4 (1h 7m 37s):But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.4 (1h 8m 37s):And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.4 (1h 9m 16s):You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.4 (1h 9m 58s):And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.2 (1h 10m 3s):So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.2 (1h 10m 55s):And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been4 (1h 11m 21s):True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.4 (1h 12m 10s):They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.4 (1h 12m 58s):And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.4 (1h 13m 46s):And he fell, right. You know, they fall

Watch/Listen here using the Embedded Subsplash Playerdiv.sap-embed-player{position:relative;width:100%;height:0;padding-top:56.25%;}div.sap-embed-player>iframe{position:absolute;top:0;left:0;width:100%;height:100%;}Central Baptist Church of Ponca City, OKDATE: Sunday AM, December 12, 2021SERMON BY: Dr. John WaterlooSERMON TITLE: Willing to Forsake All and Be Forsaken SERMON THEME: Jesus is Forsaken and Abandoned SERMON SERIES: The Gospel by MarkSERMON VERSES: Mark 15:33-47; Matthew 27:50-54With Jesus on the Cross we witness* The Greatest Mystery - Jesus takes on the sins of the World and the Father turns His back on the Son.* The Greatest Love* The Greatest Gift* The Greatest ReconciliationMark 15:33-47 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. 36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. 40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem. 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.Matthew 27:50-54 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.— — —Watch/Listen here using our Subsplash WebShare Playerhttps://subspla.sh/5y6fz23Listen here on Archive.orghttps://archive.org/download/121221-am-facebook-stream/121221AM-FacebookStream.mp3

Old Testament: Daniel 6–7 Daniel 6–7 (Listen) Daniel and the Lions' Den 6 It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom 120 satraps, to be throughout the whole kingdom; 2 and over them three high officials, of whom Daniel was one, to whom these satraps should give account, so that the king might suffer no loss. 3 Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other high officials and satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him. And the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the high officials and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom, but they could find no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, “We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God.” 6 Then these high officials and satraps came by agreement1 to the king and said to him, “O King Darius, live forever! 7 All the high officials of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the counselors and the governors are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance and enforce an injunction, that whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document, so that it cannot be changed, according to the law of the Medes and the Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 9 Therefore King Darius signed the document and injunction. 10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously. 11 Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and plea before his God. 12 Then they came near and said before the king, concerning the injunction, “O king! Did you not sign an injunction, that anyone who makes petition to any god or man within thirty days except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?” The king answered and said, “The thing stands fast, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 13 Then they answered and said before the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or the injunction you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.” 14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was much distressed and set his mind to deliver Daniel. And he labored till the sun went down to rescue him. 15 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, “Know, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or ordinance that the king establishes can be changed.” 16 Then the king commanded, and Daniel was brought and cast into the den of lions. The king declared2 to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, deliver you!” 17 And a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet and with the signet of his lords, that nothing might be changed concerning Daniel. 18 Then the king went to his palace and spent the night fasting; no diversions were brought to him, and sleep fled from him. 19 Then, at break of day, the king arose and went in haste to the den of lions. 20 As he came near to the den where Daniel was, he cried out in a tone of anguish. The king declared to Daniel, “O Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not harmed me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no harm.” 23 Then the king was exceedingly glad, and commanded that Daniel be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no kind of harm was found on him, because he had trusted in his God. 24 And the king commanded, and those men who had maliciously accused Daniel were brought and cast into the den of lions—they, their children, and their wives. And before they reached the bottom of the den, the lions overpowered them and broke all their bones in pieces. 25 Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth: “Peace be multiplied to you. 26 I make a decree, that in all my royal dominion people are to tremble and fear before the God of Daniel,   for he is the living God,    enduring forever;  his kingdom shall never be destroyed,    and his dominion shall be to the end.27   He delivers and rescues;    he works signs and wonders    in heaven and on earth,  he who has saved Daniel    from the power of the lions.” 28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian. Daniel's Vision of the Four Beasts 7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter. 2 Daniel declared,3 “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.' 6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. The Ancient of Days Reigns 9 “As I looked,   thrones were placed,    and the Ancient of Days took his seat;  his clothing was white as snow,    and the hair of his head like pure wool;  his throne was fiery flames;    its wheels were burning fire.10   A stream of fire issued    and came out from before him;  a thousand thousands served him,    and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;  the court sat in judgment,    and the books were opened. 11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. The Son of Man Is Given Dominion 13 “I saw in the night visions,   and behold, with the clouds of heaven    there came one like a son of man,  and he came to the Ancient of Days    and was presented before him.14   And to him was given dominion    and glory and a kingdom,  that all peoples, nations, and languages    should serve him;  his dominion is an everlasting dominion,    which shall not pass away,  and his kingdom one    that shall not be destroyed. Daniel's Vision Interpreted 15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me4 was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.' 19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, 20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,   there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,    which shall be different from all the kingdoms,  and it shall devour the whole earth,    and trample it down, and break it to pieces.24   As for the ten horns,  out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,    and another shall arise after them;  he shall be different from the former ones,    and shall put down three kings.25   He shall speak words against the Most High,    and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,    and shall think to change the times and the law;  and they shall be given into his hand    for a time, times, and half a time.26   But the court shall sit in judgment,    and his dominion shall be taken away,    to be consumed and destroyed to the end.27   And the kingdom and the dominion    and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven    shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;  his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,    and all dominions shall serve and obey him.'5 28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.” Footnotes [1] 6:6 Or came thronging; also verses 11, 15 [2] 6:16 Aramaic answered and said; also verse 20 [3] 7:2 Aramaic answered and said [4] 7:15 Aramaic within its sheath [5] 7:27 Or their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 132 Psalm 132 (Listen) The Lord Has Chosen Zion A Song of Ascents. 132   Remember, O LORD, in David's favor,    all the hardships he endured,2   how he swore to the LORD    and vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob,3   “I will not enter my house    or get into my bed,4   I will not give sleep to my eyes    or slumber to my eyelids,5   until I find a place for the LORD,    a dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” 6   Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah;    we found it in the fields of Jaar.7   “Let us go to his dwelling place;    let us worship at his footstool!” 8   Arise, O LORD, and go to your resting place,    you and the ark of your might.9   Let your priests be clothed with righteousness,    and let your saints shout for joy.10   For the sake of your servant David,    do not turn away the face of your anointed one. 11   The LORD swore to David a sure oath    from which he will not turn back:  “One of the sons of your body1    I will set on your throne.12   If your sons keep my covenant    and my testimonies that I shall teach them,  their sons also forever    shall sit on your throne.” 13   For the LORD has chosen Zion;    he has desired it for his dwelling place:14   “This is my resting place forever;    here I will dwell, for I have desired it.15   I will abundantly bless her provisions;    I will satisfy her poor with bread.16   Her priests I will clothe with salvation,    and her saints will shout for joy.17   There I will make a horn to sprout for David;    I have prepared a lamp for my anointed.18   His enemies I will clothe with shame,    but on him his crown will shine.” Footnotes [1] 132:11 Hebrew of your fruit of the womb (ESV) New Testament: Hebrews 11 Hebrews 11 (Listen) By Faith 11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. 29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,1 they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Footnotes [1] 11:37 Some manuscripts add they were tempted (ESV)

Old Testament: Daniel 6–7 Daniel 6–7 (Listen) Daniel and the Lions' Den 6 It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom 120 satraps, to be throughout the whole kingdom; 2 and over them three high officials, of whom Daniel was one, to whom these satraps should give account, so that the king might suffer no loss. 3 Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other high officials and satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him. And the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the high officials and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom, but they could find no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, “We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God.” 6 Then these high officials and satraps came by agreement1 to the king and said to him, “O King Darius, live forever! 7 All the high officials of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the counselors and the governors are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance and enforce an injunction, that whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document, so that it cannot be changed, according to the law of the Medes and the Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 9 Therefore King Darius signed the document and injunction. 10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously. 11 Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and plea before his God. 12 Then they came near and said before the king, concerning the injunction, “O king! Did you not sign an injunction, that anyone who makes petition to any god or man within thirty days except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?” The king answered and said, “The thing stands fast, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 13 Then they answered and said before the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or the injunction you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.” 14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was much distressed and set his mind to deliver Daniel. And he labored till the sun went down to rescue him. 15 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, “Know, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or ordinance that the king establishes can be changed.” 16 Then the king commanded, and Daniel was brought and cast into the den of lions. The king declared2 to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, deliver you!” 17 And a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet and with the signet of his lords, that nothing might be changed concerning Daniel. 18 Then the king went to his palace and spent the night fasting; no diversions were brought to him, and sleep fled from him. 19 Then, at break of day, the king arose and went in haste to the den of lions. 20 As he came near to the den where Daniel was, he cried out in a tone of anguish. The king declared to Daniel, “O Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not harmed me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no harm.” 23 Then the king was exceedingly glad, and commanded that Daniel be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no kind of harm was found on him, because he had trusted in his God. 24 And the king commanded, and those men who had maliciously accused Daniel were brought and cast into the den of lions—they, their children, and their wives. And before they reached the bottom of the den, the lions overpowered them and broke all their bones in pieces. 25 Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth: “Peace be multiplied to you. 26 I make a decree, that in all my royal dominion people are to tremble and fear before the God of Daniel,   for he is the living God,    enduring forever;  his kingdom shall never be destroyed,    and his dominion shall be to the end.27   He delivers and rescues;    he works signs and wonders    in heaven and on earth,  he who has saved Daniel    from the power of the lions.” 28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian. Daniel's Vision of the Four Beasts 7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter. 2 Daniel declared,3 “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.' 6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. The Ancient of Days Reigns 9 “As I looked,   thrones were placed,    and the Ancient of Days took his seat;  his clothing was white as snow,    and the hair of his head like pure wool;  his throne was fiery flames;    its wheels were burning fire.10   A stream of fire issued    and came out from before him;  a thousand thousands served him,    and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;  the court sat in judgment,    and the books were opened. 11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. The Son of Man Is Given Dominion 13 “I saw in the night visions,   and behold, with the clouds of heaven    there came one like a son of man,  and he came to the Ancient of Days    and was presented before him.14   And to him was given dominion    and glory and a kingdom,  that all peoples, nations, and languages    should serve him;  his dominion is an everlasting dominion,    which shall not pass away,  and his kingdom one    that shall not be destroyed. Daniel's Vision Interpreted 15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me4 was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.' 19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, 20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,   there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,    which shall be different from all the kingdoms,  and it shall devour the whole earth,    and trample it down, and break it to pieces.24   As for the ten horns,  out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,    and another shall arise after them;  he shall be different from the former ones,    and shall put down three kings.25   He shall speak words against the Most High,    and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,    and shall think to change the times and the law;  and they shall be given into his hand    for a time, times, and half a time.26   But the court shall sit in judgment,    and his dominion shall be taken away,    to be consumed and destroyed to the end.27   And the kingdom and the dominion    and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven    shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;  his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,    and all dominions shall serve and obey him.'5 28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.” Footnotes [1] 6:6 Or came thronging; also verses 11, 15 [2] 6:16 Aramaic answered and said; also verse 20 [3] 7:2 Aramaic answered and said [4] 7:15 Aramaic within its sheath [5] 7:27 Or their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them (ESV) New Testament: John 7:53–8:11 John 7:53–8:11 (Listen) [The earliest manuscripts do not include 7:53–8:11.]1 The Woman Caught in Adultery 53 [[They went each to his own house, 8 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]] Footnotes [1] 7:53 Some manuscripts do not include 7:53–8:11; others add the passage here or after 7:36 or after 21:25 or after Luke 21:38, with variations in the text (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 132 Psalm 132 (Listen) The Lord Has Chosen Zion A Song of Ascents. 132   Remember, O LORD, in David's favor,    all the hardships he endured,2   how he swore to the LORD    and vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob,3   “I will not enter my house    or get into my bed,4   I will not give sleep to my eyes    or slumber to my eyelids,5   until I find a place for the LORD,    a dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” 6   Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah;    we found it in the fields of Jaar.7   “Let us go to his dwelling place;    let us worship at his footstool!” 8   Arise, O LORD, and go to your resting place,    you and the ark of your might.9   Let your priests be clothed with righteousness,    and let your saints shout for joy.10   For the sake of your servant David,    do not turn away the face of your anointed one. 11   The LORD swore to David a sure oath    from which he will not turn back:  “One of the sons of your body1    I will set on your throne.12   If your sons keep my covenant    and my testimonies that I shall teach them,  their sons also forever    shall sit on your throne.” 13   For the LORD has chosen Zion;    he has desired it for his dwelling place:14   “This is my resting place forever;    here I will dwell, for I have desired it.15   I will abundantly bless her provisions;    I will satisfy her poor with bread.16   Her priests I will clothe with salvation,    and her saints will shout for joy.17   There I will make a horn to sprout for David;    I have prepared a lamp for my anointed.18   His enemies I will clothe with shame,    but on him his crown will shine.” Footnotes [1] 132:11 Hebrew of your fruit of the womb (ESV) Proverb: Proverbs 29:23 Proverbs 29:23 (Listen) 23   One's pride will bring him low,    but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor. (ESV)

Morning: Hosea 9–11 Hosea 9–11 (Listen) The Lord Will Punish Israel 9   Rejoice not, O Israel!    Exult not like the peoples;  for you have played the whore, forsaking your God.    You have loved a prostitute's wages    on all threshing floors.2   Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,    and the new wine shall fail them.3   They shall not remain in the land of the LORD,    but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,    and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria. 4   They shall not pour drink offerings of wine to the LORD,    and their sacrifices shall not please him.  It shall be like mourners' bread to them;    all who eat of it shall be defiled;  for their bread shall be for their hunger only;    it shall not come to the house of the LORD. 5   What will you do on the day of the appointed festival,    and on the day of the feast of the LORD?6   For behold, they are going away from destruction;    but Egypt shall gather them;    Memphis shall bury them.  Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver;    thorns shall be in their tents. 7   The days of punishment have come;    the days of recompense have come;    Israel shall know it.  The prophet is a fool;    the man of the spirit is mad,  because of your great iniquity    and great hatred.8   The prophet is the watchman of Ephraim with my God;  yet a fowler's snare is on all his ways,    and hatred in the house of his God.9   They have deeply corrupted themselves    as in the days of Gibeah:  he will remember their iniquity;    he will punish their sins. 10   Like grapes in the wilderness,    I found Israel.  Like the first fruit on the fig tree    in its first season,    I saw your fathers.  But they came to Baal-peor    and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame,    and became detestable like the thing they loved.11   Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird—    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception!12   Even if they bring up children,    I will bereave them till none is left.  Woe to them    when I depart from them!13   Ephraim, as I have seen, was like a young palm1 planted in a meadow;    but Ephraim must lead his children out to slaughter.214   Give them, O LORD—    what will you give?  Give them a miscarrying womb    and dry breasts. 15   Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal;    there I began to hate them.  Because of the wickedness of their deeds    I will drive them out of my house.  I will love them no more;    all their princes are rebels. 16   Ephraim is stricken;    their root is dried up;    they shall bear no fruit.  Even though they give birth,    I will put their beloved children to death.17   My God will reject them    because they have not listened to him;    they shall be wanderers among the nations. 10   Israel is a luxuriant vine    that yields its fruit.  The more his fruit increased,    the more altars he built;  as his country improved,    he improved his pillars.2   Their heart is false;    now they must bear their guilt.  The LORD3 will break down their altars    and destroy their pillars. 3   For now they will say:    “We have no king,  for we do not fear the LORD;    and a king—what could he do for us?”4   They utter mere words;    with empty4 oaths they make covenants;  so judgment springs up like poisonous weeds    in the furrows of the field.5   The inhabitants of Samaria tremble    for the calf5 of Beth-aven.  Its people mourn for it, and so do its idolatrous priests—    those who rejoiced over it and over its glory—    for it has departed6 from them.6   The thing itself shall be carried to Assyria    as tribute to the great king.7  Ephraim shall be put to shame,    and Israel shall be ashamed of his idol.8 7   Samaria's king shall perish    like a twig on the face of the waters.8   The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,    shall be destroyed.  Thorn and thistle shall grow up    on their altars,  and they shall say to the mountains, “Cover us,”    and to the hills, “Fall on us.” 9   From the days of Gibeah, you have sinned, O Israel;    there they have continued.    Shall not the war against the unjust9 overtake them in Gibeah?10   When I please, I will discipline them,    and nations shall be gathered against them    when they are bound up for their double iniquity. 11   Ephraim was a trained calf    that loved to thresh,    and I spared her fair neck;  but I will put Ephraim to the yoke;    Judah must plow;    Jacob must harrow for himself.12   Sow for yourselves righteousness;    reap steadfast love;    break up your fallow ground,  for it is the time to seek the LORD,    that he may come and rain righteousness upon you. 13   You have plowed iniquity;    you have reaped injustice;    you have eaten the fruit of lies.  Because you have trusted in your own way    and in the multitude of your warriors,14   therefore the tumult of war shall arise among your people,    and all your fortresses shall be destroyed,  as Shalman destroyed Beth-arbel on the day of battle;    mothers were dashed in pieces with their children.15   Thus it shall be done to you, O Bethel,    because of your great evil.  At dawn the king of Israel    shall be utterly cut off. The Lord's Love for Israel 11   When Israel was a child, I loved him,    and out of Egypt I called my son.2   The more they were called,    the more they went away;  they kept sacrificing to the Baals    and burning offerings to idols. 3   Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk;    I took them up by their arms,    but they did not know that I healed them.4   I led them with cords of kindness,10    with the bands of love,  and I became to them as one who eases the yoke on their jaws,    and I bent down to them and fed them. 5   They shall not11 return to the land of Egypt,    but Assyria shall be their king,    because they have refused to return to me.6   The sword shall rage against their cities,    consume the bars of their gates,    and devour them because of their own counsels.7   My people are bent on turning away from me,    and though they call out to the Most High,    he shall not raise them up at all. 8   How can I give you up, O Ephraim?    How can I hand you over, O Israel?  How can I make you like Admah?    How can I treat you like Zeboiim?  My heart recoils within me;    my compassion grows warm and tender.9   I will not execute my burning anger;    I will not again destroy Ephraim;  for I am God and not a man,    the Holy One in your midst,    and I will not come in wrath.12 10   They shall go after the LORD;    he will roar like a lion;  when he roars,    his children shall come trembling from the west;11   they shall come trembling like birds from Egypt,    and like doves from the land of Assyria,    and I will return them to their homes, declares the LORD.12   13 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,    and the house of Israel with deceit,  but Judah still walks with God    and is faithful to the Holy One. Footnotes [1] 9:13 Or like Tyre [2] 9:13 Hebrew to him who slaughters [3] 10:2 Hebrew He [4] 10:4 Or vain (see Exodus 20:7) [5] 10:5 Or calves [6] 10:5 Or has gone into exile [7] 10:6 Or to King Jareb [8] 10:6 Or counsel [9] 10:9 Hebrew the children of injustice [10] 11:4 Or humaneness; Hebrew man [11] 11:5 Or surely [12] 11:9 Or into the city [13] 11:12 Ch 12:1 in Hebrew (ESV) Evening: Revelation 2 Revelation 2 (Listen) To the Church in Ephesus 2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.' To the Church in Smyrna 8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. 9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander1 of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.' To the Church in Pergamum 12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. 13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith2 even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.' To the Church in Thyatira 18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule3 them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' Footnotes [1] 2:9 Greek blasphemy [2] 2:13 Or your faith in me [3] 2:27 Greek shepherd (ESV)

Morning: Hosea 5–8 Hosea 5–8 (Listen) Punishment Coming for Israel and Judah 5   Hear this, O priests!    Pay attention, O house of Israel!  Give ear, O house of the king!    For the judgment is for you;  for you have been a snare at Mizpah    and a net spread upon Tabor.2   And the revolters have gone deep into slaughter,    but I will discipline all of them. 3   I know Ephraim,    and Israel is not hidden from me;  for now, O Ephraim, you have played the whore;    Israel is defiled.4   Their deeds do not permit them    to return to their God.  For the spirit of whoredom is within them,    and they know not the LORD. 5   The pride of Israel testifies to his face;1    Israel and Ephraim shall stumble in his guilt;    Judah also shall stumble with them.6   With their flocks and herds they shall go    to seek the LORD,  but they will not find him;    he has withdrawn from them.7   They have dealt faithlessly with the LORD;    for they have borne alien children.    Now the new moon shall devour them with their fields. 8   Blow the horn in Gibeah,    the trumpet in Ramah.  Sound the alarm at Beth-aven;    we follow you,2 O Benjamin!9   Ephraim shall become a desolation    in the day of punishment;  among the tribes of Israel    I make known what is sure.10   The princes of Judah have become    like those who move the landmark;  upon them I will pour out    my wrath like water.11   Ephraim is oppressed, crushed in judgment,    because he was determined to go after filth.312   But I am like a moth to Ephraim,    and like dry rot to the house of Judah. 13   When Ephraim saw his sickness,    and Judah his wound,  then Ephraim went to Assyria,    and sent to the great king.4  But he is not able to cure you    or heal your wound.14   For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,    and like a young lion to the house of Judah.  I, even I, will tear and go away;    I will carry off, and no one shall rescue. 15   I will return again to my place,    until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face,    and in their distress earnestly seek me. Israel and Judah Are Unrepentant 6   “Come, let us return to the LORD;    for he has torn us, that he may heal us;    he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.2   After two days he will revive us;    on the third day he will raise us up,    that we may live before him.3   Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD;    his going out is sure as the dawn;  he will come to us as the showers,    as the spring rains that water the earth.” 4   What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?    What shall I do with you, O Judah?  Your love is like a morning cloud,    like the dew that goes early away.5   Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;    I have slain them by the words of my mouth,    and my judgment goes forth as the light.6   For I desire steadfast love5 and not sacrifice,    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7   But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;    there they dealt faithlessly with me.8   Gilead is a city of evildoers,    tracked with blood.9   As robbers lie in wait for a man,    so the priests band together;  they murder on the way to Shechem;    they commit villainy.10   In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;    Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled. 11   For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.   When I restore the fortunes of my people,7   when I would heal Israel,    the iniquity of Ephraim is revealed,    and the evil deeds of Samaria,  for they deal falsely;    the thief breaks in,    and the bandits raid outside.2   But they do not consider    that I remember all their evil.  Now their deeds surround them;    they are before my face.3   By their evil they make the king glad,    and the princes by their treachery.4   They are all adulterers;    they are like a heated oven  whose baker ceases to stir the fire,    from the kneading of the dough    until it is leavened.5   On the day of our king, the princes    became sick with the heat of wine;    he stretched out his hand with mockers.6   For with hearts like an oven they approach their intrigue;    all night their anger smolders;    in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.7   All of them are hot as an oven,    and they devour their rulers.  All their kings have fallen,    and none of them calls upon me. 8   Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples;    Ephraim is a cake not turned.9   Strangers devour his strength,    and he knows it not;  gray hairs are sprinkled upon him,    and he knows it not.10   The pride of Israel testifies to his face;6    yet they do not return to the LORD their God,    nor seek him, for all this. 11   Ephraim is like a dove,    silly and without sense,    calling to Egypt, going to Assyria.12   As they go, I will spread over them my net;    I will bring them down like birds of the heavens;    I will discipline them according to the report made to their congregation.13   Woe to them, for they have strayed from me!    Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against me!  I would redeem them,    but they speak lies against me. 14   They do not cry to me from the heart,    but they wail upon their beds;  for grain and wine they gash themselves;    they rebel against me.15   Although I trained and strengthened their arms,    yet they devise evil against me.16   They return, but not upward;7    they are like a treacherous bow;  their princes shall fall by the sword    because of the insolence of their tongue.  This shall be their derision in the land of Egypt. Israel Will Reap the Whirlwind 8   Set the trumpet to your lips!    One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD,  because they have transgressed my covenant    and rebelled against my law.2   To me they cry,    “My God, we—Israel—know you.”3   Israel has spurned the good;    the enemy shall pursue him. 4   They made kings, but not through me.    They set up princes, but I knew it not.  With their silver and gold they made idols    for their own destruction.5   I have8 spurned your calf, O Samaria.    My anger burns against them.  How long will they be incapable of innocence?6   For it is from Israel;  a craftsman made it;    it is not God.  The calf of Samaria    shall be broken to pieces.9 7   For they sow the wind,    and they shall reap the whirlwind.  The standing grain has no heads;    it shall yield no flour;  if it were to yield,    strangers would devour it.8   Israel is swallowed up;    already they are among the nations    as a useless vessel.9   For they have gone up to Assyria,    a wild donkey wandering alone;    Ephraim has hired lovers.10   Though they hire allies among the nations,    I will soon gather them up.  And the king and princes shall soon writhe    because of the tribute. 11   Because Ephraim has multiplied altars for sinning,    they have become to him altars for sinning.12   Were I to write for him my laws by the ten thousands,    they would be regarded as a strange thing.13   As for my sacrificial offerings,    they sacrifice meat and eat it,    but the LORD does not accept them.  Now he will remember their iniquity    and punish their sins;    they shall return to Egypt.14   For Israel has forgotten his Maker    and built palaces,  and Judah has multiplied fortified cities;    so I will send a fire upon his cities,    and it shall devour her strongholds. Footnotes [1] 5:5 Or in his presence [2] 5:8 Or after you [3] 5:11 Or to follow human precepts [4] 5:13 Or to King Jareb [5] 6:6 Septuagint mercy [6] 7:10 Or in his presence [7] 7:16 Or to the Most High [8] 8:5 Hebrew He has [9] 8:6 Or shall go up in flames (ESV) Evening: Revelation 1 Revelation 1 (Listen) Prologue 1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants1 the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. Greeting to the Seven Churches 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail2 on account of him. Even so. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Vision of the Son of Man 9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. 20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Footnotes [1] 1:1 for the contextual rendering of the Greek word doulos, see Preface; likewise for servant later in this verse [2] 1:7 Or mourn (ESV)

"God's presence is so close; it is just as though somebody is playing hide-and-seek with you in a dark room. Though you do not see the person, you feel that he is there. That is how God is, just behind the darkness of your unseeing eyes." - Yogananda"But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul." -Deuteronomy 4:29 "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.  I will say of the Lord, 'He is my refuge and my fortress;  My God, in Him I will trust." - Psalms 91 Today's Practice: 1. In every new scene... kitchen, bathroom, office, hallway, etc.  STOP SUDDENLY. 2. Close your eyes. 3. Know by feeling, that Love is (t)here.  Allow It to rise up into your awareness . Breathe It in. Love is always fully present, fully found.  It's you that's hiding.  It's you that's distracted.  It's you that forgets.  When you think you're 'you', Love is lost.  When you remember that you are Love,  you're found in and as It.  Stay here.  Keep playing. Keep finding your Self in every moment.  I Love you, Nik 

My God that year went fast! - when you're a vintage OwlHead such as I am… time is constantly accelerating past you; my wings can't flap fast enough

About SamA 25-year veteran of the Silicon Valley and Seattle technology scenes, Sam Ramji led Kubernetes and DevOps product management for Google Cloud, founded the Cloud Foundry foundation, has helped build two multi-billion dollar markets (API Management at Apigee and Enterprise Service Bus at BEA Systems) and redefined Microsoft's open source and Linux strategy from “extinguish” to “embrace”.He is nerdy about open source, platform economics, middleware, and cloud computing with emphasis on developer experience and enterprise software. He is an advisor to multiple companies including Dell Technologies, Accenture, Observable, Fletch, Orbit, OSS Capital, and the Linux Foundation.Sam received his B.S. in Cognitive Science from UC San Diego, the home of transdisciplinary innovation, in 1994 and is still excited about artificial intelligence, neuroscience, and cognitive psychology.Links: DataStax: https://www.datastax.com Sam Ramji Twitter: https://twitter.com/sramji Open||Source||Data: https://www.datastax.com/resources/podcast/open-source-data Screaming in the Cloud Episode 243 with Craig McLuckie: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/innovating-in-the-cloud-with-craig-mcluckie/ Screaming in the Cloud Episode 261 with Jason Warner: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/what-github-can-give-to-microsoft-with-jason-warner/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. Set up a meeting with a Redis expert during re:Invent, and you'll not only learn how you can become a Redis hero, but also have a chance to win some fun and exciting prizes. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Are you building cloud applications with a distributed team? Check out Teleport, an open source identity-aware access proxy for cloud resources. Teleport provides secure access to anything running somewhere behind NAT: SSH servers, Kubernetes clusters, internal web apps and databases. Teleport gives engineers superpowers! Get access to everything via single sign-on with multi-factor. List and see all SSH servers, kubernetes clusters or databases available to you. Get instant access to them all using tools you already have. Teleport ensures best security practices like role-based access, preventing data exfiltration, providing visibility and ensuring compliance. And best of all, Teleport is open source and a pleasure to use.Download Teleport at https://goteleport.com. That's goteleport.com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and recurring effort that this show goes to is to showcase people in their best light. Today's guest has done an awful lot: he led Kubernetes and DevOps Product Management for Google Cloud; he founded the Cloud Foundry Foundation; he set open-source strategy for Microsoft in the naughts; he advises companies including Dell, Accenture, the Linux Foundation; and tying all of that together, it's hard to present a lot of that in a great light because given my own proclivities, that sounds an awful lot like a personal attack. Sam Ramji is the Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax. Sam, thank you for joining me, and it's weird when your resume starts to read like, “Oh, I hate all of these things.”Sam: [laugh]. It's weird, but it's true. And it's the only life I could have lived apparently because here I am. Corey, it's a thrill to meet you. I've been an admirer of your public speaking, and public tweeting, and your writing for a long time.Corey: Well, thank you. The hard part is getting over the voice saying don't do it because it turns out that there's no real other side of public shutting up, which is something that I was never good at anyway, so I figured I'd lean into it. And again, I mean, that the sense of where you have been historically in terms of your career not, “Look what you've done,” which is a subtext that I could be accused of throwing in sometimes.Sam: I used to hear that a lot from my parents, actually.Corey: Oh, yeah. That was my name growing up. But you've done a lot of things, and you've transitioned from notable company making significant impact on the industry, to the next one, to the next one. And you've been in high-flying roles, doing lots of really interesting stuff. What's the common thread between all those things?Sam: I'm an intensely curious person, and the thing that I'm most curious about is distributed cognition. And that might not be obvious from what you see is kind of the… Lego blocks of my career, but I studied cognitive science in college when that was not really something that was super well known. So, I graduated from UC San Diego in '94 doing neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and psychology. And because I just couldn't stop thinking about thinking; I was just fascinated with how it worked.So, then I wanted to build software systems that would help people learn. And then I wanted to build distributed software systems. And then I wanted to learn how to work with people who were thinking about building the distributed software systems. So, you end up kind of going up this curve of, like, complexity about how do we think? How do we think alone? How do we learn to think? How do we think together?And that's the directed path through my software engineering career, into management, into middleware at BEA, into open-source at Microsoft because that's an amazing demonstration of distributed cognition, how, you know, at the time in 2007, I think, Sourceforge had 100,000 open-source projects, which was, like, mind boggling. Some of them even worked together, but all of them represented these groups of people, flung around the world, collaborating on something that was just fundamentally useful, that they were curious about. Kind of did the same thing into APIs because APIs are an even better way to reuse for some cases than having the source code—at Apigee. And kept growing up through that into, how are we building larger-scale thinking systems like Cloud Foundry, which took me into Google and Kubernetes, and then some applications of that in Autodesk and now DataStax. So, I love building companies. I love helping people build companies because I think business is distributed cognition. So, those businesses that build distributed systems, for me, are the most fascinating.Corey: You were basically handed a heck of a challenge as far as, “Well, help set open-source strategy,” back at Microsoft, in the days where that was a punchline. And credit where due, I have to look at Microsoft of today, and it's not a joke, you can have your arguments about them, but again in those days, a lot of us built our entire personality on hating Microsoft. Some folks never quite evolved beyond that, but it's a new ballgame and it's very clear that the Microsoft of yesteryear and the Microsoft of today are not completely congruent. What was it like at that point understanding that as you're working with open-source communities, you're doing that from a place of employment with a company that was widely reviled in the space.Sam: It was not lost on me. The irony, of course, was that—Corey: Well, thank God because otherwise the question where you would have been, “What do you mean they didn't like us?”Sam: [laugh].Corey: Which, on some levels, like, yeah, that's about the level of awareness I would have expected in that era, but contrary to popular opinion, execs at these companies are not generally oblivious.Sam: Yeah, well, if I'd been clever as a creative humorist, I would have given you that answer instead of my serious answer, but for some reason, my role in life is always to be the straight guy. I used to have Slashdot as my homepage, right? I love when I'd see some conspiracy theory about, you know, Bill Gates dressed up as the Borg, taking over the world. My first startup, actually in '97, was crushed by Microsoft. They copied our product, copied the marketing, and bundled it into Office, so I had lots of reasons to dislike Microsoft.But in 2004, I was recruited into their venture capital team, which I couldn't believe. It was really a place that they were like, “Hey, we could do better at helping startups succeed, so we're going to evangelize their success—if they're building with Microsoft technologies—to VCs, to enterprises, we'll help you get your first big enterprise deal.” I was like, “Man, if I had this a few years ago, I might not be working.” So, let's go try to pay it forward.I ended up in open-source by accident. I started going to these conferences on Software as a Service. This is back in 2005 when people were just starting to light up, like, Silicon Valley Forum with, you know, the CEO of Demandware would talk, right? We'd hear all these different ways of building a new business, and they all kept talking about their tech stack was Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP. I went to one eight-hour conference, and Microsoft technologies were mentioned for about 12 seconds in two separate chunks. So, six seconds, he was like, “Oh, and also we really like Microsoft SQL Server for our data layer.”Corey: Oh, Microsoft SQL Server was fantastic. And I know that's a weird thing for people to hear me say, just because I've been renowned recently for using Route 53 as the primary data store for everything that I can. But there was nothing quite like that as far as having multiple write nodes, being able to handle sharding effectively. It was expensive, and you would take a bath on the price come audit time, but people were not rolling it out unaware of those things. This was a trade off that they were making.Oracle has a similar story with databases. It's yeah, people love to talk smack about Oracle and its business practices for a variety of excellent reasons, at least in the database space that hasn't quite made it to cloud yet—knock on wood—but people weren't deploying it because they thought Oracle was warm and cuddly as a vendor; they did it because they can tolerate the rest of it because their stuff works.Sam: That's so well said, and people don't give them the credit that's due. Like, when they built hypergrowth in their business, like… they had a great product; it really worked. They made it expensive, and they made a lot of money on it, and I think that was why you saw MySQL so successful and why, if you were looking for a spec that worked, that you could talk through through an open driver like ODBC or JDBC or whatever, you could swap to Microsoft SQL Server. But I walked out of that and came back to the VC team and said, “Microsoft has a huge problem. This is a massive market wave that's coming. We're not doing anything in it. They use a little bit of SQL Server, but there's nothing else in your tech stack that they want, or like, or can afford because they don't know if their businesses are going to succeed or not. And they're going to go out of business trying to figure out how much licensing costs they would pay to you in order to consider using your software. They can't even start there. They have to start with open-source. So, if you're going to deal with SaaS, you're going to have to have open-source, and get it right.”So, I worked with some folks in the industry, wrote a ten-page paper, sent it up to Bill Gates for Think Week. Didn't hear much back. Bought a new strategy to the head of developer platform evangelism, Sanjay Parthasarathy who suggested that the idea of discounting software to zero for startups, with the hope that they would end up doing really well with it in the future as a Software as a Service company; it was dead on arrival. Dumb idea; bring it back; that actually became BizSpark, the most popular program in Microsoft partner history.And then about three months later, I got a call from this guy, Bill Hilf. And he said, “Hey, this is Bill Hilf. I do open-source at Microsoft. I work with Bill Gates. He sent me your paper. I really like it. Would you consider coming up and having conversation with me because I want you to think about running open-source technology strategy for the company.” And at this time I'm, like, 33 or 34. And I'm like, “Who me? You've got to be joking.” And he goes, “Oh, and also, you'll be responsible for doing quarterly deep technical briefings with Bill… Gates.” I was like, “You must be kidding.” And so of course I had to check it out. One thing led to another and all of a sudden, with not a lot of history in the open-source community but coming in it with a strategist's eye and with a technologist's eye, saying, “This is a problem we got to solve. How do we get after this pragmatically?” And the rest is history, as they say.Corey: I have to say that you are the Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax, and I pull up your website quickly here and a lot of what I tell earlier stage companies is effectively more or less what you have already done. You haven't named yourself after the open-source project that underlies the bones of what you have built so you're not going to wind up in the same glorious challenges that, for example, Elastic or MongoDB have in some ways. You have a pricing page that speaks both to the reality of, “It's two in the morning. I'm trying to get something up and running and I want you the hell out of my way. Just give me something that I can work with a reasonable free tier and don't make me talk to a salesperson.” But also, your enterprise tier is, “Click here to talk to a human being,” which is speaking enterprise slash procurement slash, oh, there will be contract negotiation on these things.It's being able to serve different ends of your market depending upon who it is that encounters you without being off-putting to any of those. And it's deceptively challenging for companies to pull off or get right. So clearly, you've learned lessons by doing this. That was the big problem with Microsoft for the longest time. It's, if I want to use some Microsoft stuff, once you were able to download things from the internet, it changed slightly, but even then it was one of those, “What exactly am I committing to here as far as signing up for this? And am I giving them audit rights into my environment? Is the BSA about to come out of nowhere and hit me with a surprise audit and find out that various folks throughout the company have installed this somewhere and now I owe more than the company's worth?” That was always the haunting fear that companies had back then.These days, I like the approach that companies are taking with the SaaS offering: you pay for usage. On some level, I'd prefer it slightly differently in a pay-per-seat model because at least then you can predict the pricing, but no one is getting surprise submarined with this type of thing on an audit basis, and then they owe damages and payment in arrears and someone has them over a barrel. It's just, “Oh. The bill this month was higher than we expected.” I like that model I think the industry does, too.Sam: I think that's super well said. As I used to joke at BEA Systems, nothing says ‘I love you' to a customer like an audit, right? That's kind of a one-time use strategy. If you're going to go audit licenses to get your revenue in place, you might be inducing some churn there. It's a huge fix for the structural problem in pricing that I think package software had, right?When we looked at Microsoft software versus open-source software, and particularly Windows versus Linux, you would have a structure where sales reps were really compensated to sell as much as possible upfront so they could get the best possible commission on what might be used perpetually. But then if you think about it, like, the boxes in a curve, right, if you do that calculus approximation of a smooth curve, a perpetual software license is a huge box and there's an enormous amount of waste in there. And customers figured out so as soon as you can go to a pay-per-use or pay-as-you-go, you start to smooth that curve, and now what you get is what you deserve, right, as opposed to getting filled with way more cost than you expect. So, I think this model is really super well understood now. Kind of the long run the high point of open-source meets, cloud, meets Software as a Service, you look at what companies like MongoDB, and Confluent, and Elastic, and Databricks are doing. And they've really established a very good path through the jungle of how to succeed as a software company. So, it's still difficult to implement, but there are really world-class guides right now.Corey: Moving beyond where Microsoft was back in the naughts, you were then hired as a VP over at Google. And in that era, the fact that you were hired as a VP at Google is fascinating. They preferred to grow those internally, generally from engineering. So, first question, when you were being hired as a VP in the product org, did they make you solve algorithms on a whiteboard to get there?Sam: [laugh]. They did not. I did have somewhat of an advantage [because they 00:13:36] could see me working pretty closely as the CEO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I'd worked closely with Craig McLuckie who notably brought Kubernetes to the world along with Joe Beda, and with Eric Brewer, and a number of others.And he was my champion at Google. He was like, “Look, you know, we need him doing Kubernetes. Let's bring Sam in to do that.” So, that was helpful. I also wrote a [laugh] 2000-word strategy document, just to get some thoughts out of my head. And I said, “Hey, if you like this, great. If you don't throw it away.” So, the interviews were actually very much not solving problems in a whiteboard. There were super collaborative, really excellent conversations. It was slow—Corey: Let's be clear, Craig McLuckie's most notable achievement was being a guest on this podcast back in Episode 243. But I'll say that this is a close second.Sam: [laugh]. You're not wrong. And of course now with Heptio and their acquisition by VMware.Corey: Ehh, they're making money beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, that's all well and good, but an invite to this podcast, that's where it's at.Sam: Well, he should really come on again, he can double down and beat everybody. That can be his landmark achievement, a two-timer on Screaming in [the] Cloud.Corey: You were at Google; you were at Microsoft. These are the big titans of their era, in some respect—not to imply that there has beens; they're bigger than ever—but it's also a more crowded field in some ways. I guess completing the trifecta would be Amazon, but you've had the good judgment never to work there, directly of course. Now they're clearly in your market. You're at DataStax, which is among other things, built on Apache Cassandra, and they launched their own Cassandra service named Keyspaces because no one really knows why or how they name things.And of course, looking under the hood at the pricing model, it's pretty clear that it really is just DynamoDB wearing some Groucho Marx classes with a slight upcharge for API level compatibility. Great. So, I don't see it a lot in the real world and that's fine, but I'm curious as to your take on looking at all three of those companies at different eras. There was always the threat in the open-source world that they are going to come in and crush you. You said earlier that Microsoft crushed your first startup.Google is an interesting competitor in some respects; people don't really have that concern about them. And your job as a Chief Strategy Officer at Amazon is taken over by a Post-it Note that simply says ‘yes' on it because there's nothing they're not going to do, or try, and experiment with. So, from your perspective, if you look at the titans, who is it that you see as the largest competitive threat these days, if that's even a thing?Sam: If you think about Sun Tzu and the Art of War, right—a lot of strategy comes from what we've learned from military environments—fighting a symmetric war, right, using the same weapons and the same army against a symmetric opponent, but having 1/100th of the personnel and 1/100th of the money is not a good plan.Corey: “We're going to lose money, going to be outcompeted; we'll make it up in volume. Oh, by the way, we're also slower than they are.”Sam: [laugh]. So, you know, trying to come after AWS, or Microsoft, or Google as an independent software company, pound-for-pound, face-to-face, right, full-frontal assault is psychotic. What you have to do, I think, at this point is to understand that these are each companies that are much like we thought about Linux, and you know, Macintosh, and Windows as operating systems. They're now the operating systems of the planet. So, that creates some economies of scale, some efficiencies for them. And for us. Look at how cheap object storage is now, right? So, there's never been a better time in human history to create a database company because we can take the storage out of the database and hand it over to Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft to handle it with 13 nines of durability on a constantly falling cost basis.So, that's super interesting. So, you have to prosecute the structure of the world as it is, based on where the giants are and where they'll be in the future. Then you have to turn around and say, like, “What can they never sell?”So, Amazon can never sell something that is standalone, right? They're a parts factory and if you buy into the Amazon-first strategy of cloud computing—which we did at Autodesk when I was VP of cloud platform there—everything is a primitive that works inside Amazon, but they're not going to build things that don't work outside of the Amazon primitives. So, your company has to be built on the idea that there's a set of people who value something that is purpose-built for a particular use case that you can start to broaden out, it's really helpful if they would like it to be something that can help them escape a really valuable asset away from the center of gravity that is a cloud. And that's why data is super interesting. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, “Boy, I had such a great conversation with Oracle over the last 20 years beating me up on licensing. Let me go find a cloud vendor and dump all of my data in that so they can beat me up for the next 20 years.” Nobody says that.Corey: It's the idea of data portability that drives decision-making, which makes people, of course, feel better about not actually moving in anywhere. But the fact that they're not locked in strategically, in a way that requires a full software re-architecture and data model rewrite is compelling. I'm a big believer in convincing people to make decisions that look a lot like that.Sam: Right. And so that's the key, right? So, when I was at Autodesk, we went from our 100 million dollar, you know, committed spend with 19% discount on the big three services to, like—we started realize when we're going to burn through that, we were spending $60 million or so a year on 20% annual growth as the cloud part of the business grew. Thought, “Okay, let's renegotiate. Let's go and do a $250 million deal. I'm sure they'll give us a much better discount than 19%.” Short story is they came back and said, “You know, we're going to take you from an already generous 19% to an outstanding 22%.” We thought, “Wait a minute, we already talked to Intuit. They're getting a 40% discount on a $400 million spend.”So, you know, math is hard, but, like, 40% minus 22% is 18% times $250 million is a lot of money. So, we thought, “What is going on here?” And we realized we just had no credible threat of leaving, and Intuit did because they had built a cross-cloud capable architecture. And we had not. So, now stepping back into the kind of the world that we're living in 2021, if you're an independent software company, especially if you have the unreasonable advantage of being an open-source software company, you have got to be doing your customers good by giving them cross-cloud capability. It could be simply like the Amdahl coffee cup that Amdahl reps used to put as landmines for the IBM reps, later—I can tell you that story if you want—even if it's only a way to save money for your customer by using your software, when it gets up to tens and hundreds of million dollars, that's a really big deal.But they also know that data is super important, so the option value of being able to move if they have to, that they have to be able to pull that stick, instead of saying, “Nice doggy,” we have to be on their side, right? So, there's almost a detente that we have to create now, as cloud vendors, working in a world that's invented and operated by the giants.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: When we look across the, I guess, the ecosystem as it's currently unfolding, a recurring challenge that I have to the existing incumbent cloud providers is they're great at offering the bricks that you can use to build things, but if I'm starting a company today, I'm not going to look at building it myself out of, “Ooh, I'm going to take a bunch of EC2 instances, or Lambda functions, or popsicles and string and turn it into this thing.” I'm going to want to tie together things that are way higher level. In my own case, now I wind up paying for Retool, which is, effectively, yeah, it runs on some containers somewhere, presumably, I think in Azure, but don't quote me on that. And that's great. Could I build my own thing like that?Absolutely not. I would rather pay someone to tie it together. Same story. Instead of building my own CRM by running some open-source software on an EC2 instance, I wind up paying for Salesforce or Pipedrive or something in that space. And so on, and so forth.And a lot of these companies that I'm doing business with aren't themselves running on top of AWS. But for web hosting, for example; if I look at the reference architecture for a WordPress site, AWS's diagram looks like a punchline. It is incredibly overcomplicated. And I say this as someone who ran large WordPress installations at Media Temple many years ago. Now, I have the good sense to pay WP Engine. And on a monthly basis, I give them money and they make the website work.Sure, under the hood, it's running on top of GCP or AWS somewhere. But I don't have to think about it; I don't have to build this stuff together and think about the backups and the failover strategy and the rest. The website just works. And that is increasingly the direction that business is going; things commoditize over time. And AWS in particular has done a terrible job, in my experience, of differentiating what it is they're doing in the language that their customers speak.They're great at selling things to existing infrastructure engineers, but folks who are building something from scratch aren't usually in that cohort. It's a longer story with time and, “Well, we're great at being able to sell EC2 instances by the gallon.” Great. Are you capable of going to a small doctor's office somewhere in the American Midwest and offering them an end-to-end solution for managing patient data? Of course not. You can offer them a bunch of things they can tie together to something that will suffice if they all happen to be software engineers, but that's not the opportunity.So instead, other companies are building those solutions on top of AWS, capturing the margin. And if there's one thing guaranteed to keep Amazon execs awake at night, it's the idea of someone who isn't them making money somehow somewhere, so I know that's got to rankle them, but they do not speak that language. At all. Longer-term, I only see that as a more and more significant crutch. A long enough timeframe here, we're talking about them becoming the Centurylinks of the world, the tier one backbone provider that everyone uses, but no one really thinks about because they're not a household name.Sam: That is a really thoughtful perspective. I think the diseconomies of scale that you're pointing to start to creep in, right? Because when you have to sell compute units by the gallon, right, you can't care if it's a gallon of milk, [laugh] or a gallon of oil, or you know, a gallon of poison. You just have to keep moving it through. So, the shift that I think they're going to end up having to make pragmatically, and you start to see some signs of it, like, you know, they hired but could not retain Matt [Acey 00:23:48]. He did an amazing job of bringing them to some pragmatic realization that they need to partner with open-source, but more broadly, when I think about Microsoft in the 2000s as they were starting to learn their open-source lessons, we were also being able to pull on Microsoft's deep competency and partners. So, most people didn't do the math on this. I was part of the field governance council so I understood exactly how the Microsoft business worked to the level that I was capable. When they had $65 billion in revenue, they produced $24 billion in profit through an ecosystem that generated $450 billion in revenue. So, for every dollar Microsoft made, it was $8 to partners. It was a fundamentally platform-shaped business, and that was how they're able to get into doctors offices in the Midwest, and kind of fit the curve that you're describing of all of those longtail opportunities that require so much care and that are complex to prosecute. These solved for their diseconomies of scale by having 1.2 million partner companies. So, will Amazon figure that out and will they hire, right, enough people who've done this before from Microsoft to become world-class in partnering, that's kind of an exercise left to the [laugh] reader, right? Where will that go over time? But I don't see another better mathematical model for dealing with the diseconomies of scale you have when you're one of the very largest providers on the planet.Corey: The hardest problem as I look at this is, at some point, you hit a point of scale where smaller things look a lot less interesting. I get that all the time when people say, “Oh, you fix AWS bills, aren't you missing out by not targeting Google bills and Azure bills as well?” And it's, yeah. I'm not VC-backed. It turns out that if I limit the customer base that I can effectively service to only AWS customers, yeah turns out, I'm not going to starve anytime soon. Who knew? I don't need to conquer the world and that feels increasingly antiquated, at least going by the stories everyone loves to tell.Sam: Yeah, it's interesting to see how cloud makes strange bedfellows, right? We started seeing this in, like, 2014, 2015, weird partnerships that you're like, “There's no way this would happen.” But the cloud economics which go back to utilization, rather than what it used to be, which was software lock-in, just changed who people were willing to hang out with. And now you see companies like Databricks going, you know, we do an amazing amount of business, effectively competing with Amazon, selling Spark services on top of predominantly Amazon infrastructure, and everybody seems happy with it. So, there's some hint of a new sensibility of what the future of partnering will be. We used to call it coopetition a long time ago, which is kind of a terrible word, but at least it shows that there's some nuance in you can't compete with everybody because it's just too hard.Corey: I wish there were better ways of articulating these things because it seems from the all the outside world, you have companies like Amazon and Microsoft and Google who go and build out partner networks because they need that external accessibility into various customer profiles that they can't speak to super well themselves, but they're also coming out with things that wind up competing directly or indirectly, with all of those partners at the same time. And I don't get it. I wish that there were smarter ways to do it.Sam: It is hard to even talk about it, right? One of the things that I think we've learned from philosophy is if we don't have a word for it, we can't be intelligent about it. So, there's a missing semantics here for being able to describe the complexity of where are you partnering? Where are you competing? Where are you differentiating? In an ecosystem, which is moving and changing.I tend to look at the tools of game theory for this, which is to look at things as either, you know, nonzero-sum games or zero-sum games. And if it's a nonzero-sum game, which I think are the most interesting ones, can you make it a positive sum game? And who can you play positive-sum games with? An organization as big as Amazon, or as big as Microsoft, or even as big as Google isn't ever completely coherent with itself. So, thinking about this as an independent software company, it doesn't matter if part of one of these hyperscalers has a part of their business that competes with your entire business because your business probably drives utilization of a completely different resource in their company that you can partner within them against them, effectively. Right?For example, Cassandra is an amazingly powerful but demanding workload on Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of Cassandra on EKS. You grow a lot of workload, and EKS business does super well. Does that prevent us from working with Amazon because they have Dynamo or because they have Keyspaces? Absolutely not, right?So, this is when those companies get so big that they are almost their own forest, right, of complexity, you can kind of get in, hang out, do well, and pretty much never see the competitive product, unless you're explicitly looking for it, which I think is a huge danger for us as independent software companies. And I would say this to anybody doing strategy for an organization like this, which is, don't obsess over the tiny part of their business that competes with yours, and do not pay attention to any of the marketing that they put out that looks competitive with what you have. Because if you can't figure out how to make a better product and sell it better to your customers as a single purpose corporation, you have bigger problems.Corey: I want to change gears slightly to something that's probably a fair bit more insulting, but that's okay. We're going to roll with it. That seems to be the theme of this episode. You have been, in effect, a CIO a number of times at different companies. And if we take a look at the typical CIO tenure, industry-wide, it's not long; it approaches the territory from an executive perspective of, “Be sure not to buy green bananas. You might not be here by the time they ripen.” And I'm wondering what it is that drives that and how you make a mark in a relatively short time frame when you're providing inputs and deciding on strategy, and those decisions may not bear fruit for years.Sam: CIO used to—we used say it stood for ‘Career Is Over' because the tenure is so short. I think there's a couple of reasons why it's so short. And I think there's a way I believe you can have impact in a short amount of time. I think the reason that it's been short is because people aren't sure what they want the CIO role to be.Do they want it to be a glorified finance person who's got a lot of data processing experience, but now really has got, you know, maybe even an MBA in finance, but is not focusing on value creation? Do they want it to be somebody who's all-singing, all-dancing Chief Data Officer with a CTO background who did something amazing and solved a really hard problem? The definition of success is difficult. Often CIOs now also have security under them, which is literally a job I would never ever want to have. Do security for a public corporation? Good Lord, that's a way to lose most of your life. You're the only executive other than the CEO that the board wants to hear from. Every sing—Corey: You don't sleep; you wait, in those scenarios. And oh, yeah, people joke about ablative CSOs in those scenarios. Yeah, after SolarWinds, you try and get an ablative intern instead, but those don't work as well. It's a matter of waiting for an inevitability. One of the things I think is misunderstood about management broadly, is that you are delegating work, but not the responsibility. The responsibility rests with you.So, when companies have these statements blaming some third-party contractor, it's no, no, no. I'm dealing with you. You were the one that gave my data to some sketchy randos. It is your responsibility that data has now been compromised. And people don't want to hear that, but it's true.Sam: I think that's absolutely right. So, you have this high risk, medium reward, very fungible job definition, right? If you ask all of the CIO's peers what their job is, they'll probably all tell you something different that represents their wish list. The thing that I learned at Autodesk, I was only there for 15 months, but we established a fundamental transformation of the work of how cloud platform is done at the company that's still in place a couple years later.You have to realize that you're a change agent, right? You're actually being hired to bring in the bulk of all the different biases and experiences you have to solve a problem that is not working, right? So, when I got to Autodesk, they didn't even know what their uptime was. It took three months to teach the team how to measure the uptime. Turned out the uptime was 97.7% for the cloud, for the world's largest engineering software company.That is 200 hours a year of unplanned downtime, right? That is not good. So, a complete overhaul [laugh] was needed. Understanding that as a change agent, your half-life is 12 to 18 months, you have to measure success not on tenure, but on your ability to take good care of the patient, right? It's going to be a lot of pain, you're going to work super hard, you're going to have to build trust with everyone, and then people are still going to hate you at the end. That is something you just have to kind of take on.As a friend of mine, Jason Warner joined Redpoint Ventures recently, he said this when he was the CTO of GitHub: “No one is a villain in their own story.” So, you realize, going into a big organization, people are going to make you a villain, but you still have to do incredibly thoughtful, careful work, that's going to take care of them for a long time to come. And those are the kinds of CIOs that I can relate to very well.Corey: Jason is great. You're name-dropping all the guests we've had. My God, keep going. It's a hard thing to rationalize and wrap heads around. It's one of those areas where you will not be measured during your tenure in the role, in some respects. And, of course, that leads to the cynical perspective as well, where well, someone's not going to be here long and if they say, “Yeah, we're just going to keep being stewards of the change that's already underway,” well, that doesn't look great, so quick, time to do a cloud migration, or a cloud repatriation, or time to roll something else out. A bit of a different story.Sam: One of the biggest challenges is how do you get the hearts and the minds of the people who are in the organization when they are no fools, and their expectation is like, “Hey, this company's been around for decades, and we go through cloud leaders or CIOs, like Wendy's goes through hamburgers.” They could just cloud-wash, right, or change-wash all their language. They could use the new language to describe the old thing because all they have to do is get through the performance review and outwait you. So, there's always going to be a level of defection because it's hard to change; it's hard to think about new things.So, the most important thing is how do you get into people's hearts and minds and enable them to believe that the best thing they could do for their career is to come along with the change? And I think that was what we ended up getting right in the Autodesk cloud transformation. And that requires endless optimism, and there's no room for cynicism because the cynicism is going to creep in around the edges. So, what I found on the job is, you just have to get up every morning and believe everything is possible and transmit that belief to everybody.So, if it seems naive or ingenuous, I think that doesn't matter as long as you can move people's hearts in each conversation towards, like, “Oh, this person cares about me. They care about a good outcome from me. I should listen a little bit more and maybe make a 1% change in what I'm doing.” Because 1% compounded daily for a year, you can actually get something done in the lifetime of a CIO.Corey: And I think that's probably a great place to leave it. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about these things, how you view the world, where can they find you?Sam: You can find me on Twitter, I'm @sramji, S-R-A-M-J-I, and I have a podcast that I host called Open||Source||Datawhere I invite innovators, data nerds, computational networking nerds to hang out and explain to me, a software programmer, what is the big world of open-source data all about, what's happening with machine learning, and what would it be like if you could put data in a container, just like you could put code in a container, and how might the world change? So, that's Open||Source||Data podcast.Corey: And we'll of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:35:58]. Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it.Sam: Corey, it's been a privilege. Thank you so much for having me.Corey: Likewise. Sam Ramji, Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me exactly which item in Sam's background that I made fun of is the place that you work at.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

If you were to open up a taco stand, would you not be screaming the fucking name of that taco stand throughout the top of your lungs in every city you are to get people to buy your shit? But you don't do the same thing with your real estate business. Why not? It's because you haven't identified your brand. What we're gonna chat about today is all about your personal brand, why it matters, then how you identify it, and how you market it.  Today we're bringing on a branding expert from brand face, Mrs. Tanya Eberhart. Tonya is the founder of BrandFace® and Branding Agent to Business Stars. She's also the author of four books on personal branding. Tonya's humble career began while selling vacuum cleaners door to door to pay her way through college. That led to a job in radio, where she observed local business owners who were featured in their own advertising and positioned as local celebrities in the market. That's when she realized the power that personal branding has on a business. Almost two decades and many successful brands later, she founded BrandFace®, a personal branding firm consisting of a book series, speaking series, and personal branding program that is designed to help business stars differentiate themselves.Three Things You'll Learn in This EpisodeThe importance of your personal brandHow to identify your personal brand and what to do with itThe impact you can leave on everyone you meetResourcesLearn more about Brand FaceDiscussYourBrain.comReal Estate Marketing DudeThe Listing Advocate (Earn more listings!)REMD on YouTubeREMD on InstagramTranscript:So how do you attract new business? You constantly don't have to chase it. Hi, I'm Mike Cuevas to real estate marketing. And this podcast is all about building a strong personal brand people have come to know, like trust and most importantly, refer. But remember, it is not their job to remember what you do for a living. It's your job to remind them. Let's get started What's up ladies and gentlemen, welcome another episode of the real estate marketing dude, podcast. We are joined here today by unbelievable gas somebody that I've seen over the last few years and finally we did fucking show together. Should have done this a long time ago. But yeah, we should. Where have you been? I don't know, just some of these things. That's just one of these things. But um, anyways, what we're going to be chatting about the summer books. So one of the things I know everyone's talking about is like, you know, the last two weeks of the year, what do we do we sit around, what are we gonna do next year? What do we do differently, and I got a newsflash for you. Nobody is hiring you based upon the broker you hang your license with. I will just go ahead and tell you that, let me repeat it one more time. Nobody is going to hire you over the broker that you're associated with, quite frankly, no one gives a shit who your broker is, or what the hell they do. And quite frankly, neither do you. Because today, more than anything, brokers are not really earning their splits, so to say, but that's why they're as 100% brokerages and companies like exp have been growing so much is because agents are looking for more, but that's another episode. So what we're gonna chat about today is all about your personal brand, why it matters, and then how you identify it, how you market it. And first off, what is it the problem that so many of our own clients have a lot is? Well, what do you mean, I'm a brand, I'm just a human being? I have a family, I have kids, I have a breeding? Well, let me ask you a question. If you're open up a taco stand, would you not be screaming the fucking name of that taco stand throughout the top of your lungs in every city you are to get people to buy your shit. But you don't do the same thing with your real estate business. Why not? It's because you haven't identified your brand. So what we're going to be doing today is bringing on a branding expert from brand face. And let's go ahead and introduce her name is Mr. Mrs. Tanya Everhart. Welcome to the show.Thank you so much, Mike. I've also been following you and so happy to be here today.Thanks. Yeah. Finally, why don't you tell everybody a little bit who you are and what you do? And then let's get into this.Yeah, okay. All right. So I'm going to take you back just for a moment, way back to my early days in in my career, I was selling vacuum cleaners door to door to pay my way through college. And that's really where the first taste of personal branding came into play. And I realized I can't just walk up to the door and say, Give me your wallet. Right, I'd be arrested. Somy vacuum cleaner in your hand.arrested with a deadly weapon. So I had to kind of come up with my own story. And when I realized how impactful that was when I just kept getting these sales awards, and then I was discovered, if you want to call it that by a guy in the radio industry, he was actually an engineer at a radio station, and I sold him he and his wife a vacuum cleaner, and shampoo, or I might add, it was a nice combo. And they called me a couple of weeks later and said you need to apply for a sales position in radio. Well, I did, I got the job very quickly, I saw that there were these people walking into these networking meetings or in events. And they were like rockstars. And I thought Who are these people? My God, you know, they're, they're just business owners. But what they all had in common was they were all the voice and the face of their own business. In other words, they put their personality, their personal brand out there as a representative of or spokesperson of their business. And that's really when I began to understand how much of an impact personal branding had on business. So fast forward many years later, actually comes with the idea of brand face because I had had a common thread throughout all of my experiences throughout the media world of bringing clients into a studio helping them create their own commercials become more of a face of their business. And then brand face began in 2013. It started out as just a book and about halfway through the book, I thought, this is a business. This is my passion. And so that's when I met my now business partner, Michael Carr, who was in the real estate world. And I worked with him on his brand very quickly. He shot to the top of his market. And I thought hmm, you know what, this works in any genre. And so, but that's kind of how we got headed into the real estate space. was really was Michael's industry. He was a real estate auctioneer, a broker and an investor. And my challenge at that time was pulling all of those brands into one to say, here's what this human being has in common with these three businesses he created. Here's why He created him. What is his why, you know, and that's what we've been doing together ever since and enjoyed every single day on it.Love it. Um, I need to go back and ask you a question. All right, folks, you selling vacuum cleaners door to door like you guys are complaining about going out and like lead generation like to try selling a vacuum cleaner door to door, you sell a vacuum cleaner door to door in Chicago, like you're getting shotgun put in your face, you can knock on my door, maybe in San Diego, might be able to get a company will open the door. But that's a tough sale. What was your story refer to? At that time, she mentioned, people fell in love with my story. So I might as a vacuum cleaners at your brand face at this point, right? Your vacuum cleaner salesperson door knocking pushing vacuum cleaners? What story did you have that copy would be like I really liked her vacuum cleaners.It wasn't about the vacuum cleaners at all. And I think I've heard you say that in previous podcasts. It's not about what you're selling. It's about you, right? And it was, hey, you know what, I'm a student, I go to Florida State University. So I wasn't selling in Chicago. So it wasn't cold. I can't you know, say I went uphill, you know, to sell a vacuum both ways in the snow. But, but it was hot. So, so it was I'm a student at Florida State University. And I would like to demonstrate this vacuum shampoo for us no obligation. You don't have to buy it. But I do get points toward school. If you could help me out. I would greatly appreciate it. Lesson number one people want to help you. If you ask for help people instinctively want to help. I was a young person, I was very young girl. I obviously wasn't a threat to anybody. So it was a little easier for me than it might be you know somebody else. But it was easy because they understood Hey, this girl just needs some help. She's in college. Then when I got in the door, I knew my product backward and forward. Nobody was gonna beat me not rainbow, not Kirby, nobody.And gotta get in the door first, how to getin the door first. And it's not about the product that gets you in the door.We have a lot in common. In college, I sold soap to get through my daddy Sona soap factory and these three packaging soap. So my dad's like, Hey, you want to stay in college? I'm going to drop you off about 100 pills of soap. And you're gonna have to repackage and shut up and go sell them door to door restaurant to restaurants to sell $5 gallons 25,000 gallons of soap. And you're right. That's why people hired me was because of the soap. They felt sorry for me because I was a broke college kid hustling and they appreciated it very much. So it wasn't the soap I was selling. They were they knew my story right? Just made me think of that. Love it. What do you think? Let me just say this first, I want to get your opinion on it. So guys, when when you're talking about your nobody hires you because you have a real estate license like that just gives you the legal right to collect money. They hire you because of how you practice your real estate license. But like she said, You got to get your foot in the door first. And nobody's remembers who's a real estate agent unless you're always out creating content or you have a brandy of something that they remember you by so people don't hire you for what you do that how you how you do it. How do you identify one's brand and let me just tee you up with an example. I'm a agent 33 years old been in the business for three years. I work for Keller Williams. I'm just a salesperson chasing a check. What do you mean, I have a brand. I don't have a brand. I'm working a job. I'm trying to make my ends meet here if you my kids, brand, Keller Williams has the brand. How do you answer that?I would answer Keller Williams does it does have a brand but it's not yours. And you come at life with your own story with your own unique points that differentiate you from everybody else. So when we look at where do you start, we have a process that we call our 3d freedom formula because once you figure this out, the world is your oyster right? It does give you freedom and is called define develop and display and we can go into that in a minute. But I did like the first part of what you're asking here belongs in the Define space and that Define Phase. Because what you're doing is you're taking a look at two things when you're trying to define your brand. And you're taking a look at okay first of all, who is it you're trying to attract? Because that is truly important if you say well, I just want to you know, sell sell a home or to anybody who fogs a mirror. We'll get out of this business because that's not going to get you very far. That's a that's, you know, a 1,998,000. Right? So what you got to do first is define who it is you're trying to attract? What is important to them? What are they seeking? What phase of life? Are they in? What lifestyle? Do they want all a lot of those things, then you take a look at yourself and you say, Okay, what is it about me that makes me unique? What things that are different about me that also appeal to that person that I'm trying to attract. And so that's kind of where you put the basis of your brand. It has to meet those two criteria, it has to be both important to your ideal customer, and unique to you in the marketplace. And so once you determine what that is it really like that's the starting point. And I think it's you your brand, at first glance has to be enough to just kick open the door for somebody to say that looks interesting. Let me learn more. Or even better yet, that looks interesting. But it's not for me. That's perfectly okay. Brands are great brands are polarizing. You are not for everybody. Right? So I don't know if I answered your question there. Butum, two questions. You're right. The problem and people have tried to cater to everyone, you're not the jack of all trades. You're not God, you're not perfect. I don't ever try to be because you resonate with zero. But I also think you can't fake your brand too. So for example, like I get one of the things I always get questions, oh, I want to trust me. And when I was in real estate, I'm 22 years old, I got my license was doing a keg Stan seven days before I found myself walking down Michigan Avenue in a suit, work in a new job, like a graduate college awesome shit happen fast and like, oh my god, what the hell just happened. And trust me at that point years old, of course, I want to sell million dollar properties. But folks, you know, like I only start selling higher end properties to my friends start making more money, period. That was it. It wasn't I can't I couldn't pick my brain. I couldn't just plot myself at that time into the luxury market, because I had nothing to do with luxury. So people have to also in real estate, would you agree that people have to like also be true to whom they are naturally before you can't pick your brand, God's picked it for you already, all you can do is embrace it and scream it from the damn rooftops.Couldn't agree more with that. It's what we call authenticity. And that authenticity. I mean, it's not like you're creating your brand from the ground up. But I also want to say what's interesting is a lot of people say your customers will decide your brand. I say that takes too damn long. It takes too long. And innocence that is correct. Right? That that because that's the authenticity coming out in you and your customers will know either you're a kind soul, you're very approachable, you're very action oriented, you're there's certain characteristics about you that formulate that brand. But what if you could say okay, here's the essence of me, based on that. This is really what I want to be known for. And you can create that create what it looks like sounds like feels like and, and that's what we call your brain preceding you. That's when you send a video to somebody introducing yourself and introducing yourself as hey, I'm the lifestyle um, your lifestyle locater. Right, that's who I am. I know this lifestyle and Whistler British Columbia better than anybody else. This is what I do every day, and my videos are about this. And all of those things. And and that's authentic. And it's also drawing in the kind of people who are seeking that type of lifestyle. So, so you're absolutely right, the authenticity is a big thing. But you can also create your brand as well create what you want it to look like, instead of waiting three years for your customers to finally tell you what your brand is. I don't agree with that.Totally. I remember. I it's funny. So I had a guy we brought on today. And he had like a cartoon character. And I was telling him the story about in 2012 when I switched into a cartoon, and I start calling myself the Chicago real estate dude. And people are like, You're nuts. You're crazy. And I'm like, I don't really care. I'm burned Dallas, either at work, or it's not. But what gave me the confidence to do that was because I averaged my last 10 clients. And there's a reason why I became beer guzzling drinking buddies with all of them. It's because we all attract like people. So whether you guys want to admit it or not, you have a brand, you just have to learn what it is, and embrace it. And but you can't be scared either to like, be it and it won't work. You have to have a theme. Like for those of you that we create video content for somebody, we build your branding strategy off of your theme of who it is, if you're servicing your military, I'm focusing on the top three military friendly neighborhoods, name my shows called salute some. If I'm focusing on I'm pcse, right people PCs going into a market if you're a dad or a mom that focus on schools, focus on kid friendly stuff. like you are the brand, like don't overthink the, the whole aspect of it, it's usually would you agree? It's usually what you're doing on the weekends?You absolutely would because who you are as a real human being you can never hide and you shouldn't want to write it because I don't want to be somebody on Facebook or Instagram or Tik Tok, that I'm not when I'm sitting with my family at dinner. I don't want to be somebody different. Do you show different things? Yes. I mean, in the content that you show is different things. But you're the same person. And they should see that all the way through, you know, and I'll give you a case in point. So and I also heard you say this on a on a podcast, and I absolutely loved it. When you said people do not remember the boring professional things. They remember the personal things about you. So a lot of times when I go speak in front of a crowd, I wait until the very end. And I say okay, I want to somebody around here to shout out what will you remember me for when I leave this room? Do you know what they are? It's vacuum cleaner sales. And it's coming from the family of moonshiners. They remember those two things about me? Because those are the things that are interesting, right? And the fact that we do personal branding is awesome, but that's not the most interesting. That's not why they're gonna remember me, which is why it's called Personal Branding. Yeah, so so that's what makes it so unique is the pulling in those other sides of you that you want people to remember because there are a million real there are 2 million real estate registered real tours, over 2 million in the United States alone.Yeah, 90% of them don't do any business. 10% do the vast majority of it. But what are those 10% all have in common? They have a brand? Yes, theydo. They know what that is? And they they get in their lane and they stay in their lane.Why do you think generally, people struggle, it's just a real estate thing. Any referral based business. I mean, this goes for contractors, lenders, attorneys, real estate agents, any local business is really the same thing. Like the, the it's all the same stuff. People in real estate, 80% of them meet with close with the first person they meet with, but you have to be remembered. And we remember the brand. We don't remember the individual like, people always say to me, like, trust me, everyone I know knows what I do for a living. And I'm like, really well then why did fucking you just lose that $1.5 million dollar listening to little cousin Billy who just got his license.So true. I'll give you another story about this. So about seven years ago, I was on the phone with a lady and she said, you know, Tanya, I mean, every everybody. I think I'm really well branded in my area. When I walk into a restaurant. Everybody knows I'm a realtor. And I said, You know what, Sherry, that's wonderful. And you've got a great start, and I'm really proud of you. But let's say I walk into that restaurant and I say oh there Sherry, the realtor. I know she's a realtor. But you look two tables to the right. There's Mike the realtor three tables to the left. There's David the realtor. Yeah. Now who do I choose? Why do I choose that person? Who's the best fit for me? What do I remember about them? When I leave? All of those things are left unanswered if you are content with just being a realtor.Very well put. So let's say we find the brand. Okay, great. I figure out who my brand is. We name it. Some people like to come up with fictitious other people come up with their name as their brand, which is fine, right? But it's it's what's the imagery, right what the brand stands for. So I always like to say like, when we we don't do any logo, we do logos and all that stuff. No do anymore. Too much. Just really lot of videos service. But when I would do a logo, I'm like, it has to do three things. One, it's got to tell story. Two, it's got to reflect personality. And three, it's got to remind people all you do for a living, right? Because your logo and your brand is the number one most it's the most important marketing piece you have, like, I don't have real estate marketing dude without the dude. Right? Right. It doesn't even take off. Like there's no brand behind it. I don't have this damn podcast without to dude, I had to sit down and figure out what the brand was. But how do you market it? Like once you have it? And once you define define it, how do we bring attention to it?Okay, so there's one word that will answer all that. Everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah, we call it Brandon fusion. So, so stop, stop projecting it and be it. Okay, so so so I'll give you a great example. And she's actually works in Michaels office and she's a young young lady who came in into his office as an intern and she's been here about five, six years now she runs now, she is runs three divisions of his company and if $4 million in real estate last year. She watched us put together brands on brand face for a few years. And then she when she got her license, one of the first things she did, came to us and said, I want to brand because she had seen what it had done for other other people. And so when we started to pull her brand together, she was a young, beautiful, super sweet military spouse, she and her husband had just gotten married, he was going to be in the military for at least the next couple of years. She wanted to help first time homebuyers. She wanted to help people in the military. And so for most of the people in our program, you are correct. Some people just kind of use their brand, their name for their brand. But we really like to add that extra, what we call a brand identifier, because your brand is your name is not necessarily what differentiates you. What differentiates you is is what we call the brand identifier. Now, you might call it a tagline or slogan, but her brand identifier is American Dream agent. And so she became the American Dream agent. And when I say she became the American Dream agent, this girl is the American Dream agent. So everything that she does, she does she considers her brand colors red, white and blue. She considers who she's talking to, she considers how she contributes how, you know, any kind of involvement in the community. Every single thing she does down to every single gift she gives to a client everything it is from the American Dream agent. And so it's just being that brand more than anything else. And and you know, and if you take a look at that American dream agent, a lot of people expect a brand identifier or slogan or tagline like real estate marketing dude, right? They expect that, to say everything about who you are the why that everything the whole story needs to be wrapped up in a logo or a name. Nonsense, forget that. of it. What that needs to do is command attention from the very beginning. It just needs to say what's that? Right? It needs to evoke a question, tell me more, what's that? I want to learn more about you. And that's really all it can do. You can never expect three or four words to communicate an entire brand. But as you Case in point of what you do the video marketing, infusing that brand and all of those videos and being that brand and all of those videos. Over time, people will begin to learn more about what you stand for. But that's a good like shot in the arm. Right?I love that. So let's tie this in. Let's tie the video stuff in and she mentioned something about gifts, which is really cool. You have to look at your brand. Or let's switch gears. If you go into a restaurant to go eat. There's a couple different restaurants that we could choose for. Let's say I'm really hungry and it's noon. But I only have half an hour and I'm going to eat tacos. That's what Mexicans do eat tacos. That's my favorite. If I'm in lunch hour, like right now and I have to run I gotta run to the taco stand on the street. I only got 20 minutes. I'm gonna eat that tacos. Good. Tastes really damn good, right? But if I'm hungry, and let's just say it's 435. And then some of the dudes here in the office are like, Hey, let's go out to grab a bite. Well, we're probably going to go to this other place down the street. That's grand margaritas, going to tacos, both are going to fill my my belly. But I'm looking for a different type of experience. Right? So it's yes, I'm eating but I'm going to look for a different experience. Now. The reason why I'm going to the other restaurant is the ambience I want to be served. I want to get margaritas, I want to get margaritas with 18 I want to watch the game a little bit I want to enjoy and spend 45 minutes with my family. But what I'm really looking for is the experience. So I like to tell people's like your brand identity is like the menu for your restaurant. Right? And it's like the drinks you serve like when restaurants go out and they actually go if you guys watch Vanderpump Rules I'm I'm a fan. Okay, don't make fun of me. But Tom and Tom right now are creating a new restaurant. And part of the restaurant they have to create is a drink menu. And they can't create the drink menu because they haven't figured out what their mission statement is for the restaurant yet which means you have to that's what your brand is so she's what she's saying here and she's getting all these awesome things I want you guys to pick up on this because when you once you identify your brand you have to live it out and that's in the experience you provide. Okay, that includes right now it's the end of the year So an easy way to give people stuff right? What would a let's take the American dream girl What does she get for her clients is like a Popeye gift or something like that like a gift like that? It would just give out once a year.Yeah, I think I don't I don't know if she does anything for Christmas specifically but I know she does for New Year's she does her own private labels on champagne that are red, white and blue big you know fireworks surprises the American Dream agent label,probably big big marketing event. Fourth of July Memorial Day, Veterans Day,unfortunately, I wish I had it here. I don't have it handy. But she puts little flags out in three different communities that she farms. And she puts them out with her card attached to them beautiful is very beautifully done. But the flags about probably a two foot flag, it's not a little dinky thing. She she really goes all in on that. And she has definitely gotten business off of that.So let's say I wanted to create a video series for her I would create a buyer bootcamp that I've created seller bootcamp, which would just price it would just be strategies on that if I would create a video series I'm talking about PCs seen in around Fort Benning. I'm talking about the top three neighborhoods near Fort Benning, I'm talking about what you need to do on a military budget, the top five neighborhoods PCs veterans move to, but that's just content, building the brand, but you can't create the content until you first identified the brand. Otherwise, it doesn't stick.Okay, bravo. Because, because that is the biggest challenge that we find with real estate agents, they begin to market before the brand is built. And and you really need to understand to build that brand. First know what it is you are communicating. There's a big difference between building a brand and promoting a brand. Yes. And so you've got to know what it is you're putting out there before you it's kind of like, why would you pack all your suitcases and go stand by the door and think I'm going on vacation? But you don't know where you're going? How do you know what to pack? Right? So or how much money to take, or who's going to go with you or how you're going to get there? You? You know, that's what's missing a lot of times, and that's why people cry and complain and whine about marketing doesn't work. Right? It does work. Videos are the number one marketing tool right now by far there's no question. There's not even anything close to it. Other than podcasts, videos, podcasts, right? Sometimes both in one, right? So you need to know a direction before you just go all crazy, which is why I love what you guys do it you go into it with a direction and a theme and a purpose. And there are so many people who don't do that.You have to be smiling in the content you create. Otherwise, it doesn't like I'm sure the the gal we're talking about here at American Dream. Trust me, guys. I guarantee you she's snapping photos of her placing those flags on social media. I guarantee you she's doing stories and reels about it. I guarantee you she's capturing different stuff around there, which is just micro content. But it's very hard to determine what to create when you first have it. So that's around. Part of that reason though. I'm going to blame the gurus I hate the gurus like the gurus You guys suck. Because teach people to go out there and chase a bunch of leads and do a bunch of old school vacuum cleaner salesman shit, that doesn't work anymore today, unless you have a brand.That's actually what I had to learn the hard way. That's where I had to develop one along the way. And then later when I got to the radio world, I realized, hey, that's what I just did. I just, I just developed my own brand. Now I'm gonna go help all these other people do the same thing. Because I learned from them. You know, I learned from those that went before me. If we're not learning, we're dying. So, you know, I learned from everybody I've learned from you today.I think there's a good way to think of yourself when it comes to content creation as your brand spokesperson, you're just the host of your own show. The guy for our examples, easiest one, he's diners, drives and drives his theme as grease pit food for dudes, diners, drives and drives is the show. He's the host. You're the host, you name a show, and then you that determines how you create content. And that way you never run out of stuff to say, but you should never run out of things to do just by you know, some people aren't gonna videos, be honest. Either cost, you'll be too scared. Or you just don't know how to schedule a demo with the real estate marketing, do WWW dot real estate marketing do.com Schedule a demo Big Blue Button. Or I don't know, I don't know what it is. But it doesn't mean you can't build a brand. But you do have to create content. I don't think you can build a brand without content. What's your opinion?No. Well, in my opinion, is this. You can build the greatest brand in the world. It's kind of like setting up for this elaborate birthday party in this gigantic Victorian mansion is perfect. All the forks are in line everything super shiny. They're earning the lipstick stains on the on the wine glasses. You did not send out the invitations and tell people here's the party here's what's going to be there who's going to be there the music, the food, everything. That's your content. You can't have a party without the content.And today folks, you're in the business of content creation. If trust me if someone's if you're not marketing your network someone else's I guarantee you we said it earlier is 2 million real estate agents out there. And your your network juice has been infiltrated every day not only other agents like in your guys's market, you got the ibuyers You got not Zillow anymore, but you still have open door, you have all the alternatives you have Nokia vz, knock it all of these companies have way more money than you guys do. And trust me, they're in the business of building their brands right now to steal that attention away from you. And the only way you're going to ever compete back is by having your own brand because where you will win is the relationship you already have with the audience you already know. That's what big tech interruption none of those people will ever be able to infiltrate. And I'll give you guys one more example of this. And I'm gonna do a giving back brand. What's the take the same thing? So here's how you here's an unfair competition. Let's just take the American girl girl, okay, I guarantee you she has a near and dear heart. What if we created a program for her called salute? And every time she had a closing 10% would go towards the Wounded Warrior Project. Sorry, you don't stand a chance. Come compete with me next time. Go home. Fuck off. I won.She would do it. And she would feel the same way. I know her. Yeah. I love that idea.You can't compete. You cannot compete. No, you can't.It's standing behind your word to you know, it truly is. And and Mike if I'm if I may I like to address something that you asked you asked why why aren't people doing this? Why don't they schedule a demo and hit that big blue button? Why don't they do more video? Why aren't they doing content? And I think that having done this for so many years and and walking CEOs into a studio, where they're like shivering and wondering what on earth they're going to do, right? It's like, make me do it's like I'm gonna make you rich. So I'm justgonna shut down and take notes.Just do what I say. Right? Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice? But But I think it's a lot of that is just intimidation. And I think we were as a society, we're raised to be very modest people, we're, you know, we still have guilt when we have, you know, when we make more money than somebody else, there's a lot of guilt going around in the world. And there's a lot of modesty. And those are great things to a degree to a degree, they ground us, right. And I think a lot of people feel like, well, if I come out here, and I develop this brand, or if I start doing all of these videos, then people are going to think I'm arrogant, narcissistic, egotistical, that all I care about is my face on another billboard, or whatever it is. And what I say to people is you need to, that's it. That's definitely an antiquated way of looking at things. You need to think of it. As we tell people. We don't this is not about Look at me, look at me, this is about look at what I can do for you. And if you approach it with that kind of spirit, that this is not about me being on video, this is about me helping people, like whoever like like soldiers, like first time homebuyers, like people that have lived in their home for 35 years, and don't know what to do with all that stuff that they need to move out to go into assisted living, right. And there are some real situations out there where people need your help. And if you can express to them why you're the person to help them. Not only does that genuineness come out, but your competitors will never never win. They'll never win against Real, true intent. And I think when you look at it that way, the videos don't seem so daunting. Yeah.Well, it also at the same time, if you truly believe in your heart, that you're the right person for the job, it actually becomes your obligation to scream it from the rooftops. If not, you're a dick. That's just the truth of it. Right? Like I think I'm one of those people for fucking video right now. Like, you don't want to do video with me school? No, I'm just joking. Um, listen, I can help you like I just I'm screaming it from the rooftops. That's why I have this podcast. But I don't feel like I'm selling you anything. You don't have to hire me if you don't want to. But I'm here if you do, right and it's remind, remind, don't tell, get out of the salesmanship, like Quit hitting them right over the head with your damn lockboxes. No one wants to buy or sell real estate. So they're the time to buy or sell. But that doesn't mean you stop communicating with them. Quit being a salesperson chasing the check and start building a brand and a long term. This is a business you're an entrepreneur, you cannot run a business without having a brand. And yeah, that's all I got.No, I love it. And I think I love your approach because I feel I always every time I listened to you, I feel like it's so refreshing. It's like, it's like, okay, stop the nonsense. You know, this is what's really happening. If you need to do this. You can do it with me. You can do it by yourself. You can do it with somebody else, but you need to do it period and I'm the guy you need to do it with. Right because because I know these things, and that genuineness comes out, you know from you. And I think that obviously no doubt is you know, real estate marketing dude. The dude is like, Okay, I'm a laid back guy. I'm intense. Right. But I'm also laid back I'm easy to get along with, we'll go out and have a beer after this. But let's get, let's get moving on these videos right now, because this is gonna change your life. Right? That's how I see the dude.Yeah, trust me, there's a lot of people don't like to do it either, like, great, you know, like, I guess I'm not, I'm not supposed to get along with everyone, and neither is anyone else out there. But I guarantee you, I have a lot more attention than my than some of my competitors. So, you know, it's, it's my job like, so it's my obligation. This is awesome, awesome show, why don't you go ahead and any other closing tips you want to add or anything else you want to mention?No, I just want to say you know, it, it truly is it comes down to one thing, unveiling your inner star. And I think that everybody has a star inside of them. I don't care who you are. And a lot of people will come into our program and say, well, there's nothing really special about me, I don't know, good luck, if you can find it. And I say nonsense. First of all, that's your first problem, right? You need to understand that there truly is there's more than one, we just have to figure out which one we're going to lead with. So there is an inner star inside of you. I think it's you, you deserve getting it out there. And not only that, it's not all about you. Okay, it's about your clients, because the people you set out to help they deserve to have somebody like you to help them. And I love what you do. And thank you for everything you do. I appreciate you having me on this show very much.Appreciate it. Why don't you tell everyone where they can find you, folks, if you guys are looking, if you're stuck on figuring out what the hell your brand is, give them a call called Brand face. I'll give you the website right now. And when you get done with that you come visit me put you on the map, Portugal had Donya tell him how to find youwill work in tandem. Alright, so the main website to learn more about us it's brand face star str.com. And then if you are sitting there thinking, Hey, I just want to talk to these people I'm in I know enough, go to discuss your brand.com and we'll jump on the phone with you and have a chat with you about exactly what it's going to take to get you where you deserve to becool. And folks make an investment in your brand. Like do it. There's no you can't, you can't start a restaurant without building out the restaurant or creating a menu and you can't start a bakery without getting your recipes. You can't start a store without picking up inventory and then naming it so like you have to look at that with your business like you cannot start a real estate business without first identifying how you're gonna practice real estate business so don't be a salesperson chasing a check be someone that serves first and you only do that you have a brand so awesome show love it. Thank you folks for listening another episode of real estate marketing Do feel free to follow us on all our social channels YouTube, Facebook IG and subscribe to the show. We appreciate you guys each and every month and if you need any help with your video marketing please give us a ring seven are not seven so not give me my cell phone number real estate marketing dude.com real estate marketing do.com But my cell phone number is 773-988-6599 to go shoot me a text we have an answer it and talk you into video. Appreciate you Tanya Have a great week and it looks like I'll be doing a show with you guys at the end of the month here to be cool so appreciate you awesome show and you guys take the advice you had here there take action you got 30 days to plan out next year. Do it. Peace everybody. Thank you for watching another episode of the real estate marketing dude podcast. If you need help with video or finding out what your brand is, visit our website at WWW dot real estate marketing dude.com We make branding and video content creation simple and do everything for you. So if you have any additional questions, visit the site, download the training, and then schedule a time to speak with the dude and get you rolling in your local marketplace. Thanks for watching another episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.

From music hall to Red Dwarf, pantomime to Absolutely Fabulous, we look at the history of British comedy, the names, shows, and historical events that made it what it is today. Like what you hear?  Become a patron of the arts for as little as $2 a month!   Or buy the book or some merch.  Hang out with your fellow Brainiacs.  Reach out and touch Moxie on Facebook, Twitter,  or Instagram. Music: Kevin MacLeod, Steve Oxen, David Fesliyan.  . Reach out and touch Moxie on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Links to all the research resources are on the website. Podchaser: Moxie got me through 2,500 miles. I listened to every episode regardless of audio quality from the vault. I got my fix of facts with a personality that kept me entertained the entire time. I shared it with everyone I knew that would appreciate the facts, wit and hilariously subtle segues. Profile avatar 2 months ago byBoredatwork23 Book: David Nowlin 5.0 out of 5 stars Be prepared to be amazed at what you needed know, but did not. Reviewed in the United States on October 31, 2021 Great book. Read it cover to cover, but am planning to reread it again and again. It is so full of such wonderful pieces of information that I use to interject conversations whenever I can. Thank you Moxie for such a wonderful gift, and the book is great too Gift and merch “The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created.  This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”  Thus begins Douglas Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe, sequel to his culture touchstone The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  That's the book that gave us the answer to life, the universe and everything, though not the question.  Welcome to episode number 42, which I have decided to devote to [drumroll] the history of British comedy.  That means we're going to try to cram hundreds of years, thousands of performers, and a dozen mediums into a half-hour show.  But don't panic.  My name's Moxie and this is your brain on facts.    British comedy history is measured in centuries, from chase scenes and beatings into Shakespeare's comedies to the misadventures of Mr. Bean.  Even as times, tastes, and technologies changes, some themes are eternal.  Innuendo, for example, has been a staple in the literature as far back as Beowulf and Chaucer, and is prevalent in many British folk songs.  King Charles II was such a fan of innuendo that he encouraged it to the point that Restoration comedy became not only its own genre, but an explicit one at that.  The repressive Victorian period gave us burlesque, though not in the same form as the shows you can see today - more vaudeville than striptease.  Absurdism and the surreal had always been an undercurrent, which firmly took root in the 1950's, leading Red Dwarf, The Mighty Boosh, and Count Duckula.  Though the British Empire successfully conquered ¼ of the globe, but its individual people struggled and suffered.  Plagues, wars, poverty, class oppression, and filthy cities gave rise to, and a need for, black humor, in which topics and events that are usually treated seriously are treated in a humorous or satirical manner.  The class system, especially class tensions between characters, with pompous or dim-witted members of the upper/middle classes or embarrassingly blatant social climbers, has always provided ample material, which we can see in modern shows like Absolutely Fabulous, Keeping Up Appearances, and Blackadder.  The British also value finding humor in everyday life, which we see in shows like Father Ted, The IT Crowd, and Spaced, which also incorporates a fair amount of absurdity.   But there's nothing the Brits do better than satire and nobody does it better than the Brits.  “The British, being cynical and sarcastic by nature do have a natural flair for satire,” says BBCAmerica.com writer Fraser McAlpine.  “There's a history of holding up a mirror to society and accentuating its least attractive qualities that goes back hundreds of years...Sometimes the satire is biting and cold, sometimes it's warm and encouraging, but if you want someone who can say a thing that isn't true, but also somehow IS true in a really profound way. You need look no further.”  There are three principal forms of satire.  Menippean satire uses fantasy realms that reflect back on modern society.  Everything from Alice in Wonderland to the works of Terry Pratchett fit here, as would Dr. Who.  Horatian satire skewers cultural moments of silliness using parodic humor.  These are the kind of thing you tend to see most of in comedy TV shows, like The Office.  We're laughing at people being inept and harassed, but not evil.  Juvenalian satire skewers everything with abrasive, often bleak, wit.  If there's an element of horror at the topic being discussed, that's a clue that it's Juvenalian.  John Oliver is a fair hand with Juvenalian satire.  Most political cartoon and black humor fall under this heading.   Though comedy is as old as laughter, we're going to begin today's time travel with the music hall.  (FYI, the narrative today is going to overall linear, but there will be a fair amount of bouncing around.)  Music halls sprang up as an answer to proper theater, which was at the time heavily monitored and censored by the government.  It took place in humble venues like the backs of pubs and coffee houses.  By the 1830s taverns had rooms devoted to musical clubs. They presented Saturday evening Sing-songs and “Free and Easies”. These became so popular that entertainment was put on two or three times a week.  Music in the form of humorous songs was a key element because dialogue was forbidden.  Dialogue was for the theater and if you had speaking parts, you'd be subject to censorship.  The Theatrical Licensing Act of 1737 empowered the Lord Chamberlain's Office to censor plays; this act would be in force until 1968. So, no speaking parts, less, though still some censorship.  Music halls also allowed drinking and smoking, which legitimate theaters didn't.  As the shows became more popular, they moved from the pubs into venues of their own.  Tavern owners, therefore, often annexed buildings adjoining their premises as music halls.  The usual show consisted of six to eight acts, possibly including a comedy skit (low comedy to appeal to the working class), a juggling act, a magic act, a mime, acrobats, a dancing act, a singing act, and perhaps a one-act play.  In the states, this format was essentially vaudeville.  The music hall era was a heyday for female performers, with headliners like Gracie Fields, Lillie Langtry, and Vesta Tilley.  The advent of the talking motion picture in the late 1920s caused music halls to convert into cinemas to stay in business.  To keep comedians employed, a mixture of films and songs called cine-variety was introduced.     The other critically important tradition of that era was panto or pantomime, but not the Marcel Marceau type of pantomime you might be picturing, but a type of theatrical musical comedy designed for family entertainment.  Modern pantomime includes songs, gags, slapstick comedy, dancing, and gender-crossing actors.  It combines topical humour with well-known stories like fables and folk tales.  It is a participatory form of theatre, in which the audience is expected to sing along with certain parts of the music and shout out phrases to the performers.  It's traditionally quite popular around Christmas and New Years.  In early 19th century England, pantomime acquired its present form and featured the first mainstream clown Joseph Grimaldi, while comedy routines also featured heavily in British music halls.  British comedians who honed their skills at pantomime and music hall sketches include Charlie Chaplin and Stan Laurel.  The influential English music hall comedian and theatre impresario Fred Karno developed a form of sketch comedy without dialogue in the 1890s, and Chaplin and Laurel were among the young comedians who worked for him as part of "Fred Karno's Army". VODACAST   Hopping back to famous ladies of music hall, one such was Lily Harley, though her greatest claim to fame is having given birth to Charles Spencer Chaplin.  When Lily inexplicably lost her voice in the middle of a show, the production manager pushed the five-year-old Charlie, whom he'd heard sing, onto the stage to replace her.  Charlie lit up the audience, wowing them with his natural comedic presence.   Sadly, Lily's voice never recovered, and she was unable to support her two sons, who were sent to a workhouse.  For those of us who don't know workhouses outside of one reference in A Christmas Carol, think an orphanage or jail with indentured servitude.  Young Charlie took whatever jobs he could find to survive as he fought his way back to the stage.  His acting debut was as a pageboy in a production of Sherlock Holmes.  From there he toured with a vaudeville outfit named Casey's Court Circus and in 1908 teamed up with the Fred Karno pantomime troupe, where Chaplin became one of its stars as the Drunk in the comedic sketch A Night in an English Music Hall.  With the Karno troupe, Chaplin got his first taste of the United States, where he caught the eye of a film producer who signed Chaplin to a contract for a $150 a week, equivalent to over three-grand today.   During his first year with the company, Chaplin made 14 films, including The Tramp, which established Chaplin's trademark character and his role as the unexpected hero.  By the age of 26, Chaplin, just three years removed from his vaudeville days, was a superstar.  He'd moved over to the Mutual Company, which paid him a whopping $670,000 a year to make now-classics like Easy Street.   Chaplin came to be known as a grueling perfectionist.  His love for experimentation often meant countless takes, and it was not uncommon for him to order the rebuilding of an entire set or begin filming with one leading actor, realize he'd made a mistake in his casting and start again with someone new.  But you can't argue with results.  During the 1920s Chaplin's career blossomed even more, with landmark films, like The Kid, and The Gold Rush, a movie Chaplin would later say he wanted to be remembered by.  We'll leave Chaplin's story while he's on top because his private life from here on out gets, in a word, sordid.   Though Chapin was English, his film were American.  British cinema arguably lagged decades behind, but they began to close the gap in the 1940's.  Films by Ealing Studios, particularly their comedies like Hue & Cry, Whisky Galore! and The Ladykillers began to push the boundaries of what could be done in cinema, dealing with previously taboo topics like crime in comedic ways.  Kitchen sink dramas followed soon after, portraying social realism, with the struggles of working class Britons on full display, living in cramped rented accommodation and spending their off-hours drinking in grimy pubs, to explore controversial social and political issues ranging from abortion to homelessness.  These contrasted sharply with the idea of cinema as escapism.  This was the era of such notable stars as actor/comedian/singer-songwriter Norman Wisdom.  Beginning with 1953's Trouble in the Store, for which he won a BAFTA (the British equivalent to an Oscar), his films were among Britain's biggest box-office successes of their day.  Wisdom gained celebrity status in lands as far apart as South America, Iran and many Eastern Bloc countries, particularly in Albania where his films were the only ones by Western actors permitted by dictator Enver Hoxha to be shown.  He also played one of the best characters in one of my favorite and most hard to find films, “The Night They Raided Minsky's.”   There are few institutions in British history that have had such a massive role in shaping the daily lives of British citizens as the British Broadcasting Corporation, which for decades meant the wireless radio.  “For many it is an ever-present companion: from breakfast-time to bedtime, from childhood through to old age, there it is telling us about ourselves and the wider world, amusing and entertaining us,” says Robin Aitkin, a former BBC reporter and journalist.  The BBC solidified its place in the public consciousness from its beginnings in 1922 to the end of the Second World War in 1945 is of special interest because these pivotal years helped redefine what it means to be British in modern society.  This was especially true during the high unemployment of the 1920's, when other forms of entertainment were unaffordable.  The BBC was formed from the merger of several major radio manufacturers in 1922, receiving a royal charter in 1927, and governmental protection from foreign competition made it essentially a monopoly.  Broadcasting was seen as a public service; a job at the BBC carried similar gravitas to a government job.  Classical music and educational programs were its bedrock, with radio plays added to bring theater to the wireless.  The BBC strove to be varied but balanced in its offerings, neutral but universal; some people found it elitist nonetheless.  Expansion in offerings came slowly, if at all, in the early years.     Trying to bring only the best of culture to the people meant that bawdy music hall acts had little to no place on the radio.  Obscenity was judged by laws passed as early as 1727.  British libel and slander laws are more strict than in the US, so making fun of public figures was taboo even in forms that would have been legal.  And blasphemy?  Lord, no.  In 1949, the BBC issued to comedy writers and producers the Variety Programmes Policy Guide For Writers and Producers, commonly known as "the Green Book."  Among things absolutely banned were jokes about lavatories, effeminacy in men, immorality of any kind, suggestive references to honeymoon couples, chambermaids, fig leaves, ladies' underwear, prostitution, and the vulgar use of words such as "basket".  (Not an actual basket, the Polari word “basket,” meaning the bulge in a gentleman's trousers.  More on that later.)  The guidelines also stipulated that "..such words as God, Good God, My God, Blast, Hell, Damn, Bloody, Gorblimey, Ruddy, etc etc should be deleted from scripts and innocuous expressions substituted."  Where the independently tun music halls gave people what they wanted, BBC radio gave people what it felt they needed.  But comedy writers are nothing if not clever and there is always a way to slip past the censors if you try.   In the very beginning of radio, comedies lampooned the poor, because only those with money had radios.  As radio ownership grew, the topics of shows broadened.  First half-hour comedy program in 1938, Band Wagon, included musical interludes, was effectively a sitcom and set the stage for much of what came after.  By then, nearly every household had a radio.   WWII had an enormous impact on British comedy and entertainment in general.  Unlike WWI, which was fought on the continent, WWII was right on top of them, with the Blitz, blackouts, rationing, et al.  All places of amusement, which by their nature meant lots of people would gather and could be a target for bombings, were closed.  But the government soon realized comedy had an important role to play in helping its people to keep calm and carry on.  Bonus fact: The iconic 'Keep Calm and Carry On' poster was designed months before WWII began, but was never officially sanctioned for display.  It only achieved its prominent position in the public imagination after its rediscovery in 2001.  All the parody t-shirts still annoy me though.   Theater was allowed to continue, but television service was suspended.  This brought radio back to the forefront for communication and diversion.  The most popular show was It's That Man Again, which ran on BBC radio from ‘39-'49.  It's humor was a great unifier during the war, helping people to laugh at the things they were scared of.  People would often listen huddled around their radio during a blackout.  In its character archetypes, it offered a more comprehensive range of social representation than what had come before it, with characters ranging from east end charwomen to the upper class.  It was so universally popular that supposedly its catch-phrases, which is regarded as the first to really succeed with, were used to test suspected German spies.  If you didn't know who said what, they'd be shot.      During the war, Britain fought back against the Nazi propagandists' ferocious scaremongering with things like a song about the fact that Hitler may or may not have only one testicle, the other of which we were storing in a London theatre for safe keeping.  This attitude, combined with having had enough authority to last them a while, would extend to their own government at the start of the 1960's when Peter Cook, Dudley Moore, Alan Bennett, and Jonathan Miller made fun of the prime minister in their stage show Beyond The Fringe, with the PM in the audience.  This would open the door for satirical news programs like 1962's That Was The Week That Was, grandfather to The Daily Show and The Colbert Report.  There was also The Frost Report, whose staff of writers included five names many of know well and you know we're going to get into more detail on - Chapman, Jones, Idle, Palin, and Cleese.   The war would remain subject to comedy, either as the primary setting or a recurring plot point for decades to come in shows like Dad's Army, Allo Allo, and even Are You Being Served?, one of my personal favorites.   If you've ever seen me at my customer service day jobs, I pattern my behavior on Mrs. Slocombe, though I don't reference my pussy as often. [clip]  Experiences in the war led to the prominence of absurdism/surrealism, because nothing could match what they men had been through.  One of the most famous example was The Goon Show, with Spike Milligan, Harry Secombe, and Peter Sellers.  The scripts mixed ludicrous plots with surreal humour, puns, catchphrases and an array of bizarre sound effects. Some of the later episodes feature electronic effects devised by the fledgling BBC Radiophonic Workshop, who also created the theme to Dr Who.  The Goon Show and other such programs were popular with those who were students at the time, seeding their sense of humor into the next generation.  Spike Milligan in particular had wide-reaching cultural influence.  The Goon Show was cited as a major influence by The Beatles, the American comedy team The Firesign Theatre, as well as, among many others, Monty Python.   PATREON   Do you remember how I said in episode #39, Short-Lived, Long Remembered that Jackie Gleason's Honeymooner's was the first TV sitcom?  I was mistaken and I don't mind issuing a correction.  Pinwright's Progress, which ran for ten episodes starting in 1946, was the first half-hour television sitcom, telling the tale of a beleaguered shop-owner, his hated rival and his unhelpful staff.  By 1955, ⅓ of British households had a TV.  That year saw the launch of ITV, I for independent, because it was *not run by BBC with its war vets with good-school educations, but by showmen and entertainers.  Where the BBC did comedies for and about the middle-class, ITV brought full-blooded variety to TV.  The BBC was forced to loosen its tie a bit to keep up.  ITV also had commercials, which BBC shows never did -a concept that is quite foreign to the American brain- so writers had to learn to pace their shows differently to allow for the break.  One stand-out was Hancock's Half-hour, which began on radio and moved to TV.  Fom 54-61, it pushed sitcoms with a focus on character development, rather than silly set-ups, musical interludes, and funny voices of radio plays.  Two writers on the show, Ray Galton and Alan Simpson, would leave to create Comedy Playhouse in 1961, ten half-hour plays.  One of these grew into the TV show Steptoe and Son (1962–74), about two rag and bone men, father and son, who live together in a squalid house in West London.  This was the basis for the American series Sanford and Son, as well as version in Sweden, Netherlands and Portugal.  For those not in the know, a rag and bone man collected salvageable rubbish from the streets, making it a bizarre name choice for a clothing company but oh well.    The tone and offerings changed considerably with the cultural revolution of the 1960's.  Rock music, the birth control pill, civil rights, everything was changing.  Round The Horne, which aired on BBC radio on Sunday afternoons was chock full of brazen innuendos and double-entendres.  Some of them were risque to the point of being ironically safe -- people who would have objected to them were not of the sensibility to catch the joke it the first place.  Their most remarkable characters were Julian and Sandy, two very obviously gay characters in a time when it was still illegal to be gay in Britain.  Julian and Sandy got away with the bawdiest of their jokes because they spoke Polari, a pidgin language made up a words from Romani, French, Italian, theater and circus slang and even words spelled backwards.  They might refer to someone's dirty dishes and the squares would have no idea that “dish” meant derriere.  Bonus fact: You probably use Polari words without even realizing it, if you describe a masculine person as “butch” or something kitchy as “camp,” even “drag” meaning clothes, particularly women's.    The Carry On Films, a franchise that put out nearly a movie a year for three decades and spun off a TV series, held up a cartoonish mirror to the depressed and repressed Britain of the 1950s and 1960s.  They blended the rapid-fire pace of music hall sketches with topicality and a liberating sense of directness.  Carry On also filled the gap left as music halls as an institution collapsed.   Monty Python's Flying Circus aired from 69-74 and enjoyed a unique watershed success not just for British comedy but also for television comedy around the world. Monty Python was unlike anything that had appeared on television, and in many ways it was both a symbol and a product of the social upheaval and youth-oriented counterculture of the late 1960s.  The show's humour could be simultaneously sarcastic, scatological, and intellectual.  The series was a creative collaboration between Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Eric Idle, Terry Jones, Michael Palin, and Terry Gilliam, the sole American in a group of Oxford and Cambridge graduates.  The five Brits played most of the roles, with Gilliam primarily contributing eccentric animations.  Although sketch comedy shows were nothing new, television had never broadcast anything as untraditional and surreal, and its importance to television is difficult to overstate.  Their free-form sketches seldom adhered to any particular theme and disregarded the conventions of comedy that writers, performers and audiences had been accustomed to for generations.  Even the opening title sequence didn't follow the rules; it might run in the middle of the show or be omitted entirely.  Over the run of the series, a *few characters recurred, but most were written solely for one sketch.  The show spun-off a number of feature films, like Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975), Life of Brian (1979), and the Meaning of Life (1983) and even a Tony Award-winning musical comedy Spamalot, first produced in 2005, as well as books and albums like Instant Record Collection.  Decades after the show's initial run, the mere mention of some dead parrots, silly ways, Spam or the Spanish Inquisition is enough to prompt laughter from even casual fans.  All the members who continue on to successful careers, but let's follow John Cleese to his next best-known project.  I put my favorite sketch in Vodacast; see if you can guess it before you look.  And tell me yours, soc med.   Fawlty Towers has been described as the sitcom by which other sitcoms must be measured, voted number one in the BFI's 100 Greatest British Television Programmes in 2000. Its main character, Basil Fawlty, was inspired by a seethingly rude hotel proprietor John Cleese encountered while filming abroad with the Monty Python team.  Cleese actually tested the character on another show in 1971, Doctor At Large, a comedy about newly-graduated doctors, based on the books of Richard Gordon.  The setting for Fawlty Towers was a painfully ordinary hotel that Basil constantly struggling to inject a touch of class into.  His escapades included trying to hide a rat from a hygiene inspector, keeping a dead customer hidden, and pretending that his wife Sybil was ill during their anniversary party, when in fact she's walked out on him).  Basil was the perfect vehicle for Cleese's comic talents: mixing the biting verbal tirades against his wife and guests with the physical dexterity utilised to charge about between self-induced disasters.  Part of the success of the show is arguably the fact that it ran for a mere twelve episodes, so never ran out of steam.  It's been remade in other countries, but those version never really capture the success of the original.  That's one of the key differences between British and American TV series.  A British show might have 2 writers for a season of 6-10 episodes, whereas an American show will have a team of writers for a season of 13-25 episodes.  Quality over quantity, I suppose.  In part, this is a reflection of the difference between the size of the TV audience in the two countries, and the economics of television production; for decades sitcoms on US television that delivered the highest ratings, whereas; in Britain the highest ratings figures were normally for soap operas.   The tone shifted again as the 60's gave way to the 70's.  The anger of 60's revolution gave way to a more comfortable feeling in the 70's.  One of the stand-outs of the decade, which continued into the 80's, was The Two Ronnies.  A sketch show starring Ronnies Barker and Corbett, it moved away from the long-standing comic and straight-man format.  It was the BBC's flagship of light entertainment, the longest running show of its genre.  If we're talking modern comedy duos, we need to talk about Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders.  Even in alternative comedy scenes, women had trouble gaining the same notoriety as their male peers.  A step in the right direction was 1987's French and Saunders, a sketch show that displayed the wilful amateurishness of much alternative comedy, but shunned both the violence and scatology or the strident politics that were staples of the big-name performers.  The duo's humour was distinctively female, but not feminist, and most of their jokes were at the expense of themselves or each other.  As audiences and budgets grew, the pair increasingly favoured elaborate spoofs of pop stars and blockbuster movies.  After the show French starred in The Vicar of Dibley and Saunders to the role she's probably best known for, Edina in Absolutely Fabulous.   And that's where we run out of ideas, at least for today.  Don't be surprised if this topic spawns a sequel.  I left out Punch and Judy, skipped right over literature, had to forgo luminaries like Morecambe and Wise, didn't get to the panel show format, and said nothing of Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie, which may actually be a crime, I'm not sure.  Well, it's like they say in the biz, always leave them wanting more.  Thanks for spending part of your day with em.     Sources: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/truth-behind-keep-calm-and-carry-on https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/feb/17/the-five-stages-of-british-gags-silliness-repression-anger-innuendo-fear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goon_Show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Wisdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hancock%27s_Half_Hour https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/17/gender.filmnews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_the_Horne http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/1011109/index.html https://www.britannica.com/topic/Monty-Pythons-Flying-Circus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton_and_Simpson http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/fawltytowers/ http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/06/history-brits-better-satire https://www.britannica.com/art/music-hall-and-variety https://www.biography.com/people/charlie-chaplin-9244327 https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1107&context=ghj https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U77CXPANrCc&list=PL9e1sByp65ixpMQlW9hpMMdomwSwGK9-Y

-"God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:10) -John Paul II talks about, in the Created Order, there were four good relationships: us with God; us with creation; us with other human beings; us with ourself. Before the Fall, these were perfect, and all of these led to a deeper intimacy with God. -Fr. Daniel -When they looked within, when they looked in the eyes of their beloved, and when they looked at creation around all them, all they could do was praise, glorify, and love their Creator. Now if that doesn't stir your hearts, I don't know what does.... That was how it was meant to be. That was how God created it for us. -Fr. Daniel -(Wisdom 2:23-24) -Jesus is King of the Universe, but in many ways, Satan is still king of this world. And we long for and wait for the final coming of our king. This is one of the aspects that we celebrate in Advent. -Fr. Daniel -For us to understand truly the gift that God has given us in His Son—what it means to be rescued—you can't understand our redemption and being rescued unless you understand what we're being rescued from. -Fr. Daniel -"Without Jesus Christ, we wound, we kill, and we go down to hell." (paraphrasing St. Ignatius of Loyola) -The reality is, to understand the gift of redemption, we must understand our fall. -Fr. Daniel -In our brokenness, we see what is good, and in fear, and in selfishness, and in a lack of trust in the goodness of God, we reach out and grasp, so that we might have control. So that we might take it to ourselves without needing to be dependent upon our Creator. And Satan does this so easily. All he needs to do is enter into a little area where truth resides, and twist it. -Fr. Daniel -Notice the conversation between the serpent, Satan, and Eve: Did God really say that? He sows a seed of doubt: Surely you will not die. Which in a way is true, but it's also not true. They won't physically die when they take of the fruit, but their relationship with God is divided. And from that severing, that division between them and God, all of the other dominoes fall down in an horrendous way. Their relationship with creation: broken. Their relationship between themselves: broken. Their relationship within their very own identity: broken. -Fr. Daniel ​-After the Fall, we turn within, we look within, and before Jesus Christ, what do you find? Emptiness. Absence. The image of God is ruptured, as a statue would be cast upon the ground. When we look at each other, we no longer see the glory of God in fulfillment, but we see an enemy, someone who can hurt me. When we look within ourselves, we see weakness, sinfulness, darkness, again and again and again. This should spurn in us, then, the longing for the return to the garden. The longing for the harmony and the peace that can be found there and only there, where we dwell with God and walk with Him side by side. And ultimately, it can only come in Jesus Christ. -Fr. Daniel​​​ -(Genesis 3:23-24) - (Baruch 5:6-7) -"John went throughout the whole region of the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, as it is written in the book of the words of the prophet Isaiah: A voice of one crying out in the desert: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. Every valley shall be filled and every mountain and hill shall be made low. The winding roads shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:3-6) -If we have one prayer, if we have one desire today, it's "My God, I am in need of a Savior, because I want to go back to the Garden. I want to go to the place where creation is fulfilled. Where my words flow from my heart in trust. And where, when I look within myself, I see wholeness, beauty, goodness, that I desire to share." -Fr. Daniel

Morning: Daniel 5–6 Daniel 5–6 (Listen) The Handwriting on the Wall 5 King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords and drank wine in front of the thousand. 2 Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver that Nebuchadnezzar his father1 had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them. 3 Then they brought in the golden vessels that had been taken out of the temple, the house of God in Jerusalem, and the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines drank from them. 4 They drank wine and praised the gods of gold and silver, bronze, iron, wood, and stone. 5 Immediately the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall of the king's palace, opposite the lampstand. And the king saw the hand as it wrote. 6 Then the king's color changed, and his thoughts alarmed him; his limbs gave way, and his knees knocked together. 7 The king called loudly to bring in the enchanters, the Chaldeans, and the astrologers. The king declared2 to the wise men of Babylon, “Whoever reads this writing, and shows me its interpretation, shall be clothed with purple and have a chain of gold around his neck and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.” 8 Then all the king's wise men came in, but they could not read the writing or make known to the king the interpretation. 9 Then King Belshazzar was greatly alarmed, and his color changed, and his lords were perplexed. 10 The queen,3 because of the words of the king and his lords, came into the banqueting hall, and the queen declared, “O king, live forever! Let not your thoughts alarm you or your color change. 11 There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the spirit of the holy gods.4 In the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom like the wisdom of the gods were found in him, and King Nebuchadnezzar, your father—your father the king—made him chief of the magicians, enchanters, Chaldeans, and astrologers, 12 because an excellent spirit, knowledge, and understanding to interpret dreams, explain riddles, and solve problems were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar. Now let Daniel be called, and he will show the interpretation.” Daniel Interprets the Handwriting 13 Then Daniel was brought in before the king. The king answered and said to Daniel, “You are that Daniel, one of the exiles of Judah, whom the king my father brought from Judah. 14 I have heard of you that the spirit of the gods5 is in you, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom are found in you. 15 Now the wise men, the enchanters, have been brought in before me to read this writing and make known to me its interpretation, but they could not show the interpretation of the matter. 16 But I have heard that you can give interpretations and solve problems. Now if you can read the writing and make known to me its interpretation, you shall be clothed with purple and have a chain of gold around your neck and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.” 17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, “Let your gifts be for yourself, and give your rewards to another. Nevertheless, I will read the writing to the king and make known to him the interpretation. 18 O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father kingship and greatness and glory and majesty. 19 And because of the greatness that he gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whom he would, he killed, and whom he would, he kept alive; whom he would, he raised up, and whom he would, he humbled. 20 But when his heart was lifted up and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was brought down from his kingly throne, and his glory was taken from him. 21 He was driven from among the children of mankind, and his mind was made like that of a beast, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. He was fed grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, until he knew that the Most High God rules the kingdom of mankind and sets over it whom he will. 22 And you his son,6 Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, though you knew all this, 23 but you have lifted up yourself against the Lord of heaven. And the vessels of his house have been brought in before you, and you and your lords, your wives, and your concubines have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood, and stone, which do not see or hear or know, but the God in whose hand is your breath, and whose are all your ways, you have not honored. 24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, and PARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: MENE, God has numbered7 the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 TEKEL, you have been weighed8 in the balances and found wanting; 28 PERES, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”9 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put around his neck, and a proclamation was made about him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31 10 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Daniel and the Lions' Den 6 It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom 120 satraps, to be throughout the whole kingdom; 2 and over them three high officials, of whom Daniel was one, to whom these satraps should give account, so that the king might suffer no loss. 3 Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other high officials and satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him. And the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the high officials and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom, but they could find no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, “We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God.” 6 Then these high officials and satraps came by agreement11 to the king and said to him, “O King Darius, live forever! 7 All the high officials of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the counselors and the governors are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance and enforce an injunction, that whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document, so that it cannot be changed, according to the law of the Medes and the Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 9 Therefore King Darius signed the document and injunction. 10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously. 11 Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and plea before his God. 12 Then they came near and said before the king, concerning the injunction, “O king! Did you not sign an injunction, that anyone who makes petition to any god or man within thirty days except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?” The king answered and said, “The thing stands fast, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be revoked.” 13 Then they answered and said before the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or the injunction you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.” 14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was much distressed and set his mind to deliver Daniel. And he labored till the sun went down to rescue him. 15 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, “Know, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or ordinance that the king establishes can be changed.” 16 Then the king commanded, and Daniel was brought and cast into the den of lions. The king declared12 to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, deliver you!” 17 And a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet and with the signet of his lords, that nothing might be changed concerning Daniel. 18 Then the king went to his palace and spent the night fasting; no diversions were brought to him, and sleep fled from him. 19 Then, at break of day, the king arose and went in haste to the den of lions. 20 As he came near to the den where Daniel was, he cried out in a tone of anguish. The king declared to Daniel, “O Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not harmed me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no harm.” 23 Then the king was exceedingly glad, and commanded that Daniel be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no kind of harm was found on him, because he had trusted in his God. 24 And the king commanded, and those men who had maliciously accused Daniel were brought and cast into the den of lions—they, their children, and their wives. And before they reached the bottom of the den, the lions overpowered them and broke all their bones in pieces. 25 Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth: “Peace be multiplied to you. 26 I make a decree, that in all my royal dominion people are to tremble and fear before the God of Daniel,   for he is the living God,    enduring forever;  his kingdom shall never be destroyed,    and his dominion shall be to the end.27   He delivers and rescues;    he works signs and wonders    in heaven and on earth,  he who has saved Daniel    from the power of the lions.” 28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian. Footnotes [1] 5:2 Or predecessor; also verses 11, 13, 18 [2] 5:7 Aramaic answered and said; also verse 10 [3] 5:10 Or queen mother; twice in this verse [4] 5:11 Or Spirit of the holy God [5] 5:14 Or Spirit of God [6] 5:22 Or successor [7] 5:26 Mene sounds like the Aramaic for numbered [8] 5:27 Tekel sounds like the Aramaic for weighed [9] 5:28 Peres (the singular of Parsin) sounds like the Aramaic for divided and for Persia [10] 5:31 Ch 6:1 in Aramaic [11] 6:6 Or came thronging; also verses 11, 15 [12] 6:16 Aramaic answered and said; also verse 20 (ESV) Evening: 1 John 4 1 John 4 (Listen) Test the Spirits 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. God Is Love 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot1 love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. Footnotes [1] 4:20 Some manuscripts how can he (ESV)

About IvanIvan Pepelnjak, CCIE#1354 Emeritus, is an independent network architect, blogger, and webinar author at ipSpace.net. He's been designing and implementing large-scale service provider and enterprise networks as well as teaching and writing books about advanced internetworking technologies since 1990.https://www.ipspace.net/About_Ivan_PepelnjakLinks:ipSpace.net: https://ipspace.net TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by my friends at ThinkstCanary. Most companies find out way too late that they've been breached. ThinksCanary changes this and I love how they do it. Deploy canaries and canary tokens in minutes and then forget about them. What's great is the attackers tip their hand by touching them, giving you one alert, when it matters. I use it myself and I only remember this when I get the weekly update with a “we're still here, so you're aware” from them. It's glorious! There is zero admin overhead  to this, there are effectively no false positives unless I do something foolish. Canaries are deployed and loved on all seven continents. You can check out what people are saying at canary.love. And, their Kub config canary token is new and completely free as well. You can do an awful lot without paying them a dime, which is one of the things I love about them. It is useful stuff and not an, “ohh, I wish I had money.” It is speculator! Take a look; that's canary.love because it's genuinely rare to find a security product that people talk about in terms of love. It really is a unique thing to see. Canary.love. Thank you to ThinkstCanary for their support of my ridiculous, ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code they write, but also the containers and cloud infrastructure their apps run on. And a big part of that responsibility is app security — from code to cloud.That's where Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets developers where they are, finding and fixing vulnerabilities right from the CLI, IDEs, repos, and pipelines. And Snyk integrates seamlessly with AWS offerings like CodePipeline, EKS, ECR, etc., etc., etc., you get the picture! Deploy on AWS. Secure with Snyk. Learn more at snyk.io/scream. That's S-N-Y-K-dot-I-O/scream. Because they have not yet purchased a vowel.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I have an interesting and storied career path. I dabbled in security engineering slash InfoSec for a while before I realized that being crappy to people in the community wasn't really my thing; I was a grumpy Unix systems administrator because it's not like there's a second kind of those out there; and I dabbled ever so briefly in the wide world of network administration slash network engineering slash plugging the computers in to make them talk to one another, ideally correctly. But I was always a dabbler. When it comes time to have deep conversations about networking, I immediately tag out and look to an expert. My guest today is one such person. Ivan Pepelnjak is oh so many things. He's a CCIE emeritus, and well, let's start there. Ivan, welcome to the show.Ivan: Thanks for having me. And oh, by the way, I have to tell people that I was a VAX/VMS administrator in those days.Corey: Oh, yes the VAX/VMS world was fascinating. I talked—Ivan: Yes.Corey: —to a company that was finally emulating them on physical cards because that was the only way to get them there. Do you refer to them as VAXen, or VAXes, or how did you wind up referring—Ivan: VAXes.Corey: VAXes. Okay, I was on the other side of that with the inappropriately pluralizing anything that ends with an X with an en—‘boxen' and the rest. And that's why I had no friends for many years.Ivan: You do know what the first VAX was, right?Corey: I do not.Ivan: It was a Swedish Hoover company.Corey: Ooh.Ivan: And they had a trademark dispute with Digital over the name, and then they settled that.Corey: You describe yourself in your bio as a CCIE Emeritus, and you give the number—which is low—number 1354. Now, I've talked about certifications on this show in the context of the modern era, and whether it makes sense to get cloud certifications or not. But this is from a different time. Understand that for many listeners, these stories might be older than you are in some cases, and that's okay. But Cisco at one point, believe it or not, was a shining beacon of the industry, the kind of place that people wanted to work at, and their certification path was no joke.I got my CCNA from them—Cisco Certified Network Administrator—and that was basically a byproduct of learning how networks worked. There are several more tiers beyond that, culminating in the CCIE, which stands for Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert, or am I misremembering?Ivan: No, no, that's it.Corey: Perfect. And that was known as the doctorate of networking in many circles for many years. Back in those days, if you had a CCIE, you are guaranteed to be making an awful lot of money at basically any company you wanted to because you knew how networking—Ivan: In the US.Corey: —worked. Well, in the US. True. There's always the interesting stories of working in places that are trying to go with the lowest bidder for networking gear, and you wind up spending weeks on end trying to figure out why things are breaking intermittently, and only to find out at the end that someone saved 20 bucks by buying cheap patch cables. I digress, and I still have the scars from those.But it was fascinating in those days because there was a lab component of getting those tests. There were constant rumors that in the middle of the night, during the two-day certification exam, they would come in and mess with the lab and things you'd set up—Ivan: That's totally true.Corey: —you'd have to fix it the following day. That is true?Ivan: Yeah. So, in the good old days, when the lab was still physical, they would even turn the connectors around so that they would look like they would be plugged in, but obviously there was no signal coming through. And they would mess up the jumpers on the line cards and all that stuff. So, when you got your broken lab, you really had to work hard, you know, from the physical layer, from the jumpers, and they would mess up your config and everything else. It was, you know, the real deal. The thing you would experience in real world with, uh, underqualified technicians putting stuff together. Let's put it this way.Corey: I don't wish to besmirch our brethren working in the data centers, but having worked with folks who did some hilariously awful things with cabling, and how having been one of those people myself from time to time, it's hard to have sympathy when you just spent hours chasing it down. But to be clear, the CCIE is one of those things where in a certain era, if you're trying to have an argument on the internet with someone about how networks work and their responses, “Well, I'm a CCIE.” Yeah, the conversation was over at that point. I'm not one to appeal to authority on stuff like that very often, but it's the equivalent of arguing about medicine with a practicing doctor. It's the same type of story; it is someone where if they're wrong, it's going to be in the very fringes or the nuances, back in this era. Today, I cannot speak to the quality of CCIEs. I'm not attempting to besmirch any of them. But I'm also not endorsing that certification the way I once did.Ivan: Yeah, well, I totally agree with you. When this became, you know, a mass certification, the reason it became a mass certification is because reseller discounts are tied to reseller status, which is tied to the number of CCIEs they have, it became, you know, this, well, still high-end, but commodity that you simply had to get to remain employed because your employer needed the extra two point discount.Corey: It used to be that the prerequisite for getting the certification was beyond other certifications was, you spent five or six years working on things.Ivan: Well, that was what gave you the experience you needed because in those days, there were no boot camps. Today, you have [crosstalk 00:06:06]—Corey: Now, there's boot camp [crosstalk 00:06:07] things where it's we're going to train you for four straight weeks of nothing but this, teach to the test, and okay.Ivan: Yeah. No, it's even worse, there were rumors that some of these boot camps in some parts of the world that shall remain unnamed, were actually teaching you how to type in the commands from the actual lab.Corey: Even better.Ivan: Yeah. You don't have to think. You don't have to remember. You just have to type in the commands you've learned. You're done.Corey: There's an arc to the value of a certification. It comes out; no one knows what the hell it is. And suddenly it's, great, you can use that to really identify what's great and what isn't. And then it goes at some point down into the point where it becomes commoditized and you need it for partner requirements and the rest. And at that point, it is no longer something that is a reliable signal of anything other than that someone spent some time and/or money.Ivan: Well, are you talking about bachelor degree now?Corey: What—no, I don't have one of those either. I have—Ivan: [laugh].Corey: —an eighth grade education because I'm about as good of an academic as it probably sounds like I am. But the thing that really differentiated in my world, the difference between what I was doing in the network engineering sense, and the things that folks like you who were actually, you know, professionals rather than enthusiastic amateurs took into account was that I was always working inside of the LAN—Local Area Network—inside of a data center. Cool, everything here inside the cage, I can make a talk to each other, I can screw up the switching fabric, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't deal with any of the WAN—Wide Area Network—think ‘internet' in some cases. And at that point, we're talking about things like BGP, or OSPF in some parts of the world, or RIP. Or RIPv2 if you make terrible life choices.But BGP is the routing protocol that more or less powers the internet. At the time of this recording, we're a couple weeks past a BGP… kerfuffle that took Facebook down for a number of hours, during which time the internet was terrific. I wish they could do that more often, in fact; it was almost like a holiday. It was fantastic. I took my elderly relatives out and got them vaccinated. It was glorious.Now, we're back to having Facebook and, terrific. The problem I have whenever something like this happens is there's a whole bunch of crappy explainers out there of, “What is BGP and how might it work?” And people have angry opinions about all of these things. So instead, I prefer to talk to you. Given that you are a networking trainer, you have taught people about these things, you have written books, you have operated large—scale environments—Ivan: I even developed a BGP course for Cisco.Corey: You taught it for Cisco, of all places—Ivan: Yeah. [laugh].Corey: —back when that was impressive, and awesome and not a has-been. It's honestly, I feel like I could go there and still wind up going back in time, and still, it's the same Cisco in some respects: ‘evolve or die dinosaur,' and they got frozen in amber. But let's start at the very beginning. What is BGP?Ivan: Well, you know, when the internet was young, they figured out that we aren't all friends on the internet anymore. And I want to control what I tell you, and you want to control what you tell me. And furthermore, I want to control what I believe from what you're telling me. So, we needed a protocol that would implement policy, where I could say, “I will only announce my customers to you, but not what I've heard from Verizon.” And you will do the same.And then I would say, “Well, but I don't want to hear about that customer of yours because he's also my customer.” So, we need some sort of policy. And so they invented a protocol where you will tell me what you have, I will tell you what I have and then we would both choose what we want to believe and follow those paths to forward traffic. And so BGP was born.Corey: On some level, it seems like it's this faraway thing to people like me because I have a residential internet connection and I am not generally allowed to make my own BGP announcements to the greater world. Even when I was working in data centers, very often the BGP was handled by our upstream provider, or very occasionally by a router they would drop in with the easiest maintenance instructions in the world for me of, “Step one, make sure it has power. Step two, never touch it. Step three, we'd prefer if you don't even look at it and remain at least 20 feet away to keep from bringing your aura near anything we care about.” And that's basically how you should do with me in the context of hardware. So, it was always this arcane magic thing.Ivan: Well, it's not. You know, it's like power transmission: when you know enough about it, it stops being magic. It's technology, it's a bit more complicated than some other stuff. It's way less complicated than some other stuff, like quantum physics, but still, it's so rarely used that it gets this aura of being mysterious. And then of course, everyone starts getting their opinion, particularly the graduates of the Facebook Academy.And yes, it is true that usually BGP would be used between service providers, so whenever, you know, we are big enough to need policy, if you just need one uplink, there is no policy there. You either use the uplink or you don't use the uplink. If you want to have two different links to two different points of presence or to two different service providers, then you're already in the policy land. Do I prefer one provider over the other? Do I want to announce some things to one provider but other things to the other? Do I want to take local customers from both providers because I want to, you know, have lower latency because they are local customers? Or do I want to use one solely as the backup link because I paid so little for that link that I know it's shitty.So, you need all that policy stuff, and to do that, you really need BGP. There is no other routing protocol in the world where you could implement that sort of policy because everything else is concerned mostly with, let's figure out as fast as possible, what is reachable and how to get there. And BGP is like, “Hey, slow down. There's policy.”Corey: Yeah. In the context of someone whose primary interaction with networks is their home internet, where there's a single cable coming in from the outside world, you plug it into a device, maybe yours, maybe ISPs, maybe we don't care. That's sort of the end of it. But think in terms of large interchanges, where there are multiple redundant networks to get from here to somewhere else; which one should traffic go down at any given point in time? Which networks are reachable on the other end of various distant links? That's the sort of problem that BGP is very good at addressing and what it was built for. If you're running BGP internally, in a small network, consider not doing exactly that.Ivan: Well, I've seen two use cases—well, three use cases for people running BGP internally.Corey: Okay, this I want to hear because I was always told, “No touch ‘em.” But you know, I'm about to learn something. That's why I'm talking to you.Ivan: The first one was multinationals who needed policy.Corey: Yes. Many multi-site environments, large-scale companies that have redundant links, they're trying to run full mesh in some cases, or partial mesh where—between a bunch of facilities.Ivan: In this case, it was multiple continents and really expensive transcontinental links. And it was, I don't want to go from Europe to Sydney over US; I want to go over Middle East. And to implement that type of policy, you have to split, you know, the whole network into regions, and then each region is what BGP calls an autonomous system, so that it gets its stack, its autonomous system number and then you can do policy on that saying, “Well, I will not announce Asian routes to Europe through US, or I will make them less preferred so that if the Middle East region goes down, I can still reach Asia through US but preferably, I will not go there.”The second one is yet again, large networks where they had too many prefixes for something like OSPF to carry, and so their OSPF was breaking down and the only way to solve that was to go to something that was designed to scale better, which was BGP.And third one is if you want to implement some of the stuff that was designed for service providers, initially, like, VPNs, layer two or layer three, then BGP becomes this kitchen sink protocol. You know, it's like using Route 53 as a database; we're using BGP to carry any information anyone ever wants to carry around. I'm just waiting for someone to design JSON in BGP RFC and then we are, you know… where we need to be.Corey: I feel on some level, like, BGP gets relatively unfair criticism because the only time it really intrudes on the general awareness is when something has happened and it breaks. This is sort of the quintessential network or systems—or, honestly, computer—type of issue. It's either invisible, or you're getting screamed at because something isn't working. It's almost like a utility. On some level. When you turn on a faucet, you don't wonder whether water is going to come out this time, but if it doesn't, there's hell to pay.Ivan: Unless it's brown.Corey: Well, there is that. Let's stay away from that particular direction; there's a beautiful metaphor, probably involving IBM, if we do. So, the challenge, too, when you look at it is that it's this weird, esoteric thing that isn't super well understood. And as soon as it breaks, everyone wants to know more about it. And then in full on charging to the wrong side of the Dunning-Kruger curve, it's, “Well, that doesn't sound hard. Why are they so bad at it? I would be able to run this better than they could.” I assure you, you can't. This stuff is complicated; it is nuanced; it's difficult. But the common question is, why is this so fragile and able to easily break? I'm going to turn that around. How is it that something that is this esoteric and touches so many different things works as well as it does?Ivan: Yeah, it's a miracle, particularly considering how crappy the things are configured around the world.Corey: There have been periodic outages of sites when some ISP sends out a bad BGP announcement and their upstream doesn't suppress it because hey, you misconfigured things, and suddenly half the internet believes oh, YouTube now lives in this tiny place halfway around the world rather than where it is currently being Anycasted from.Ivan: Called Pakistan, to be precise.Corey: Exact—there was an actual incident there; we are not dunking on Pakistan as an example of a faraway place. No, no, an Pakistani ISP wound up doing exactly this and taking YouTube down for an afternoon a while back. It's a common problem.Ivan: Yeah, the problem was that they tried to stop local users accessing YouTube. And they figured out that, you know, YouTube, is announcing this prefix and if they would announce to more specific prefixes, then you know, they would attract the traffic and the local users wouldn't be able to reach YouTube. Perfect. But that leaked.Corey: If you wind up saying that, all right, the entire internet is available on this interface, and a small network of 256 nodes available on the second interface, the most specific route always wins. That's why the default route or route of last resort is the entire internet. And if you don't know where to send it, throw it down this direction. That is usually, in most home environments, the gateway that then hands it up to your ISP, where they inspect it and do all kinds of fun things to sell ads to you, and then eventually get it to where it's going.This gets complicated at these higher levels. And I have sympathy for the technical aspects of what happened at Facebook; no sympathy whatsoever for the company itself because they basically do far more harm than they do good and I've been very upfront about that. But I want to talk to you as well about something that—people are going to be convinced I'm taking this in my database direction, but I assure you I'm not—DNS. What is the relationship between BGP and DNS? Which sounds like a strange question, sometimes.Ivan: There is none.Corey: Excellent.Ivan: It's just that different large-scale properties decided to implement the global load-balancing global optimal access to their servers in different ways. So, Cloudflare is a typical example of someone who is doing Anycast, they are announcing the same networks, the same prefixes, from hundreds locations around the world. So, BGP will take care that you always get to the close Cloudflare [unintelligible 00:18:46]. And that's it. That's how they work. No magic. Facebook didn't believe in the power of Anycast when they started designing their service. So, what they're doing is they have DNS servers around the world, and the DNS servers serve the local region, if you wish. And that DNS server then decides what facebook.com really stands for. So, if you query for facebook.com, you'll get a different answer in Europe than in US.Corey: Just a slight diversion on what Anycast is. If I ping Google's public resolver 8.8.8.8—easy to remember—from my computer right now, the packet gets there and back in about five milliseconds.Wherever you are listening to this, if you were to try that same thing you'd see something roughly similar. Now, one of two things is happening; either Google has found a way to break the laws of physics and get traffic to a central point faster than light for the 8.8.8.8 that I'm talking to and the one that you are talking to are not in fact the same computer.Ivan: Well, by the way, it's 13 milliseconds for me. And between you and me, it's 200 millisecond. So yes, they are cheating.Corey: Just a little bit. Or unless they tunneled through the earth rather than having to bounce it off of satellites and through cables.Ivan: No, even that wouldn't work.Corey: That's what the quantum computers are for. I always wondered. Now, we know.Ivan: Yeah. They're entangling the replies in advance, and that's how it works. Yeah, you're right.Corey: Please continue. I just wanted to clarify that point because I got that one hilariously wrong once upon a time and was extremely confused for about six months.Ivan: Yeah. It's something that no one ever thinks about unless, you know, you're really running large-scale DNS because honestly, root DNS servers were Anycasted for ages. You think they're like 12 different root DNS servers; in reality, there are, like, 300 instances hidden behind those 12 addresses.Corey: And fun trivia fact; the reason there are 12 addresses is because any more than that would no longer fit within the 512 byte limit of a UDP packet without truncating.Ivan: Thanks for that. I didn't know that.Corey: Of course. Now, EDNS extensions that you go out with a larger [unintelligible 00:21:03], but you can't guarantee that's going to hit. And what happens when you receive a UDP packet—when you receive a DNS result with a truncate flag set on the UDP packet? It is left to the client. It can either use the partial result, or it can try and re-establish over a TCP connection.That is one of those weird trivia questions they love to ask in sysadmin interviews, but it's yeah, fundamentally, if you're doing something that requires the root nameservers, you don't really want to start going down those arcane paths; you want it to just be something that fits in a single packet not require a whole bunch of computational overhead.Ivan: Yeah, and even within those 300 instances, there are multiple servers listening to the same IP address and… incoming packets are just sprayed across those servers, and whichever one gets the packet replies to it. And because it's UDP, it's one packet in one packet out. Problem solved. It all works. People thought that this doesn't work for TCP because, you know, you need a whole session, so you need to establish the session, you send the request, you get the reply, there are acknowledgements, all that stuff.Turns out that there is almost never two ways to get to a certain destination across the internet from you. So, people thought that, you know, this wouldn't work because half of your packets will end in San Francisco, and half of the packets will end in San Jose, for example. Doesn't work that way.Corey: Why not?Ivan: Well, because the global Internet is so diverse that you almost never get two equal cost paths to two different destinations because it would be San Francisco and San Jose announcing 8.8.8.8 and it would be a miracle if you would be sitting just in the middle so that the first packet would go to San Francisco, the second one would go to San Jose, and you know, back and forth. That never happens. That's why Cloudflare makes it work by analysing the same prefix throughout the world.Corey: So, I just learned something new about how routing announcements work, an aspect of BGP, and you a few minutes ago learned something about the UDP size limit and the root name servers. BGP and DNS are two of the oldest protocols in existence. You and I are also decades into our careers. If someone is starting out their career today, working in a cloud-y environment, there are very few network-centric roles because cloud providers handle a lot of this for us. Given these protocols are so foundational to what goes on and they're as old as they are, are we as an industry slash sector slash engineers losing the skills to effectively deploy and manage these things?Ivan: Yes. The same problem that you have in any other sufficiently developed technology area. How many people can build power lines? How many people can write a compiler? How many people can design a new CPU? How many people can design a new motherboard?I mean, when I was 18 years old, I was wire wrapping my own motherboard, with 8-bit processor. You can't do that today. You know, as the technology is evolving and maturing, it's no longer fun, it's no longer sexy, it stops being a hobby, and so it bifurcates into users and people who know about stuff. And it's really hard to bridge the gap from one to the other. So, in the end, you have, like, this 20 [graybeard 00:24:36] people who know everything about the technology, and the youngsters have no idea. And when these people die, don't ask me [laugh] how we'll get any further on.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at CloudAcademy. That's right, they have a different lab challenge up for you called, “Code Red: Repair an AWS Environment with a Linux Bastion Host.” What does it do? Well, its going to assess your ability to troubleshoot AWS networking and security issues in a production like environment. Well, kind of, its not quite like production because some exec is not standing over your shoulder, wetting themselves while screaming. But..ya know, you can pretend in fact I'm reasonably certain you can retain someone specifically for that purpose should you so choose. If you are the first prize winner who completes all four challenges with the fastest time, you'll win a thousand bucks. If you haven't started yet you can still complete all four challenges between now and December 3rd to be eligible for the grand prize. There's only a few days left until the whole thing ends, so I would get on it now. Visit cloudacademy.com/corey. That's cloudacademy.com/C-O-R-E-Y, for god's sake don't drop the “E” that drives me nuts, and thank you again to Cloud Academy for not only promoting my ridiculous non sense but for continuing to help teach people how to work in this ridiculous environment.Corey: On some level, it feels like it's a bit of a down the stack analogy for what happened to me early in my career. My first systems administration job was running a large-scale email system. So, it was a hobby that I was interested in. I basically bluffed my way into working at a university for a year—thanks, Chapman; I appreciate that [laugh]—and it was great, but it was also pretty clear to me that with the rise of things like hosted email, Gmail, and whatnot, it was not going to be the future of what the present day at that point looked like, which was most large companies needed an email administrator. Those jobs were dwindling.Now, if you want to be an email systems administrator, there are maybe a dozen companies or so that can really use that skill set and everyone else just outsources that said, at those companies like Google and Microsoft, there are some incredibly gifted email administrators who are phenomenal at understanding every nuance of this. Do you think that is what we're going to see in the world of running BGP at large scale, where a few companies really need to know how this stuff works and everyone else just sort of smiles, nods and rolls with it?Ivan: Absolutely. We're already there. Because, you know, if I'm an end customer, and I need BGP because I have to uplinks to two ISPs, that's really easy. I mean, there are a few tricks you should follow and hopefully, some of the guardrails will be built into network operating systems so that you will really have to configure explicitly that you want to leak [unintelligible 00:26:15] between Verizon and AT&T, which is great fun if you have too low-speed links to both of them and now you're becoming transit between the two, which did happen to Verizon; that's why I'm mentioning them. Sorry, guys.Anyway, if you are a small guy and you just need two uplinks, and maybe do a bit of policy, that's easy and that's achievable, let's say with some Google and paste, and throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. On the other hand, what the large-scale providers—like for example Facebook because we were talking about them—are doing is, like, light years away. It's like comparing me turning on the light bulb and someone running, you know, nuclear reactor.Corey: Yeah, you kind of want the experts running some aspects on that. Honestly, in my case, you probably want someone more competent flipping the light switch, too. But that's why I have IoT devices here that power my lights, it on the one hand, keeps me from hurting myself on the other leads to a nice seasonal feel because my house is freaking haunted.Ivan: So, coming back to Facebook, they have these DNS servers all around the world and they don't want everyone else to freak out when one of these DNS servers goes away. So, that's why they're using the same IP address for all the DNS servers sitting anywhere in the world. So, the name server for facebook.com is the same worldwide. But it's different machines and they will give you different answers when you ask, “Where is facebook.com?”I will get a European answer, you will get a US answer, someone in Asia will get whatever. And so they're using BGP to advertise the DNS servers to the world so that everyone gets to the closest DNS server. And now it doesn't make sense, right, for the DNS server to say, “Hey, come to European Facebook,” if European Facebook tends to be down. So, if their DNS server discovers that it cannot reach the servers in the data center, it stops advertising itself with BGP.Why would BGP? Because that's the only thing it can do. That's the only protocol where I can tell you, “Hey, I know about this prefix. You really should send the traffic to me.” And that's what happened to Facebook.They bricked their backbone—whatever they did; they never told—and so their DNS server said, “Gee, I can't reach the data center. I better stop announcing that I'm a DNS server because obviously I am disconnected from the rest of Facebook.” And that happens to all DNS servers because, you know, the backbone was bricked. And so they just, you know, [unintelligible 00:29:03] from the internet, they've stopped advertising themselves, and so we thought that there was no DNS server for Facebook. Because no DNS server was able to reach their core, and so all DNS servers were like, “Gee, I better get off this because, you know, I have no clue what's going on.”So, everything was working fine. Everything was there. It's just that they didn't want to talk to us because they couldn't reach the backend servers. And of course, people blamed DNS first because the DNS servers weren't working. Of course they weren't. And then they blame the BGP because it must be BGP if it isn't DNS. But it's like, you know, you're blaming headache and muscle cramps and high fever, but in fact you have flu.Corey: For almost any other company that wasn't Facebook, this would have been a less severe outage just because most companies are interdependent on each other companies to run infrastructure. When Facebook itself has evolved the way that it has, everything that they use internally runs on the same systems, so they wound up almost with a bootstrapping problem. An example of this in more prosaic terms are okay, the data center had a power outage. Okay, now I need to power up all the systems again and the physical servers I'm trying to turn on need to talk to a DNS server to finish booting but the DNS server is a VM that lives on those physical servers. Uh-oh. Now, I'm in trouble. That is a overly simplified and real example of what Facebook encountered trying to get back into this, to my understanding.Ivan: Yes, so it was worse than that. It looks like, you know, even out-of-band management access didn't work, which to me would suggest that out-of-band management was using authentication servers that were down. People couldn't even log to Zoom because Zoom was using single-sign-on based on facebook.com, and facebook.com was down so they couldn't even make Zoom calls or open Google Docs or whatever. There were rumors that there was a certain hardware tool with a rotating blade that was used to get into a data center and unbrick a box. But those rumors were vehemently denied, so who knows?Corey: The idea of having someone trying to physically break into a data center in order to power things back up is hilarious, but it does lead to an interesting question, which is in this world of cloud computing, there are a lot of people in the physical data centers themselves, but they don't have access, in most cases to log into any of the boxes. One of the most naive things I see all the time is, “Oh well, the cloud provider can read all of your data.” No, they can't. These things are audited. And yeah, theoretically, if they're lying outright, and somehow have falsified all of the third-party audit stuff that has been reported and are willing to completely destroy their business when it gets out—and I assure you, it would—yeah, theoretically, that's there. There is an element of trust here. But I've had to answer a couple of journalists questions recently of, “Oh, is AWS going to start scanning all customer content?” No, they physically cannot do it because there are many ways you can configure things where they cannot see it. And that's exactly what we want.Ivan: Yeah, like a disk encryption.Corey: Exactly. Disk encryption, KMS on some level, using—rolling your own, et cetera, et cetera. They use a lot of the same systems we do. The point being, though, is that people in the data centers do not even have logging rights to any of these nodes for the physical machines, in some cases, let alone the customer tenants on top of those things. So, on some level, you wind up with people building these systems that run on top of these computers, and they've never set foot in one of the data centers.That seems ridiculous to me as someone who came up visiting data centers because I had to know where things were when they were working so I could put them back that way when they broke later. But that's not necessary anymore.Ivan: Yeah. And that's the problem that Facebook was facing with that outage because you start believing that certain systems will always work. And when those systems break down, you're totally cut off. And then—oh, there was an article in ACM Queue long while ago where they were discussing, you know, the results of simulated failures, not real ones, and there were hilarious things like phone directory was offline because it wasn't on UPS and so they didn't know whom to call. Or alerts couldn't be diverted to a different data center because the management station for alert configuration was offline because it wasn't on UPS.Or, you know the one, right, where in New York, they placed the gas pump in the basement, and the diesel generators were on the top floor, and the hurricane came in and they had to carry gas manually, all the way up to the top floor because the gas pump in the basement just stopped working. It was flooded. So, they did everything right, just the fuel wouldn't come to the diesel generators.Corey: It's always the stuff that is under the hood on these things that you can't make sense of. One of the biggest things I did when I was evaluating data center sites was I'd get a one-line diagram—which is an electrical layout of the entire facility—great. I talked to the folks running it. Now, let's take a walk and tour it. Hmmm, okay. You show four transformers on your one-line diagram. I see two transformers and two empty concrete pads. It's an aspirational one-line diagram. It's a joke that makes it a one-liner diagram and it's not very funny. So it's, okay if I can't trust you for those little things, that's a problem.Ivan: Yeah, well, I have another funny story like that. We had two power feeds coming into the house plus the diesel generator, and it was, you know, the properly tested every month diesel generator. And then they were doing some maintenance and they told us in advance that they will cut both power feeds at 2 a.m. on a Sunday morning.And guess what? The diesel generator didn't start. Half an hour later UPS was empty, we were totally dead in water with quadruple redundancy because you can't get someone it's 2 a.m. on a Sunday morning to press that button on the diesel generator. In half an hour.Corey: That is unfortunate.Ivan: Yeah, but that's how the world works. [laugh].Corey: So, it's been fantastic reminding myself of some of the things I've forgotten because let's be clear, in working with cloud, a lot of this stuff is completely abstracted away. I don't have to care about most of these things anymore. Now, there's a small team of people that AWS who very much has to care; if they don't, I will say mean things to them on Twitter, if I let my HugOps position slip up just a smidgen. But they do such a good job at this that we don't have problems like this, almost ever, to the point where when it does happen, it's noteworthy. It's been fun talking to you about this just because it's a trip down a memory lane that is a lot more aligned with the things that are there and we tend not to think about them. It's almost a How it's Made episode.Ivan: Yeah. And don't be so relaxed regarding the cloud networking because, you know, if you don't go full serverless with nothing on-premises, you know what protocol you're running between on-premises and the cloud on direct connect? It's called BGP.Corey: Ah. You know, I did not know that. I've done some ridiculous IPsec pairings over those things, and was extremely unhappy for a while afterwards, but I never got to the BGP piece of it. Makes sense.Ivan: Yeah, even over IPsec if you want to have any dynamic failover, or multiple sites, or anything, it's [BP 00:36:56].Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to go through all this with me. If people want to learn more about how you view these things, learn more things from you, as I'd strongly recommend they should if they're even slightly interested by the conversation we've had, where can they find you?Ivan: Well, just go to ipspace.net and start exploring. There's the blog with thousands of blog entries, some of them snarkier than others. Then there are, like, 200 webinars, short snippets of a few hours of—Corey: It's like a one man version of re:Invent. My God.Ivan: Yeah, sort of. But I've been working on this for ten years, and they do it every year, so I can't produce the content at their speed. And then there are three different full-blown courses. Some of them are just, you know, the materials from the webinars, plus guest speakers plus hands-on exercises, plus I personally review all the stuff people submit, and they cover data centers, and automation, and public clouds.Corey: Fantastic. And we will, of course, put links to that into the [show notes 00:38:01]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Ivan: Oh, it's been such a huge pleasure. It's always great talking with you. Thank you.Corey: It really is. Thank you once again. Ivan Pepelnjak network architect and oh so much more. CCIE #1354 Emeritus. And read the bio; it's well worth it. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and a comment formatted as a RIPv2 announcement.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

About ClintonClinton Herget is Principal Solutions Engineer at Snyk, where he focuses on helping our large enterprise and public sector clients on their journey to DevSecOps. A seasoned technologist, Clinton spent his 15+ year career prior to Snyk as a web software engineer, DevOps consultant, cloud solutions architect, and technical director in the systems integrator space, leading client delivery of complex agile technology solutions. Clinton is passionate about empowering software engineers and is a frequent conference speaker, developer advocate, and everything-as-code evangelist.Links:Try Snyk for free today at:https://app.snyk.io/login?utm_campaign=Screaming-in-the-Cloud-podcast&utm_medium=Partner&utm_source=AWS TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by my friends at ThinkstCanary. Most companies find out way too late that they've been breached. ThinksCanary changes this and I love how they do it. Deploy canaries and canary tokens in minutes and then forget about them. What's great is the attackers tip their hand by touching them, giving you one alert, when it matters. I use it myself and I only remember this when I get the weekly update with a “we're still here, so you're aware” from them. It's glorious! There is zero admin overhead  to this, there are effectively no false positives unless I do something foolish. Canaries are deployed and loved on all seven continents. You can check out what people are saying at canary.love. And, their Kub config canary token is new and completely free as well. You can do an awful lot without paying them a dime, which is one of the things I love about them. It is useful stuff and not an, “ohh, I wish I had money.” It is speculator! Take a look; that's canary.love because it's genuinely rare to find a security product that people talk about in terms of love. It really is a unique thing to see. Canary.love. Thank you to ThinkstCanary for their support of my ridiculous, ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted episode features Clinton Herget, who's a principal solutions engineer at Snyk. Or ‘Snick.' Or ‘Cynic.' Clinton, thank you for joining me, how the heck do I pronounce your company's name?Clinton: That is always a great place to start, Corey, and we like to say it is ‘sneak' as in sneaking around or a pair of sneakers. Now, our colleagues in the UK do like to say ‘Snick,' but that is because they speak incorrectly. We will accept it; it is still wrong. As long as you're not saying ‘Sink' because it really has nothing to do with plumbing and we prefer to avoid that association.Corey: Generally speaking, I try not to tell other people how to run their business, but I will make an exception here because I can't take it anymore. According to CrunchBase, your company has raised $1.4 billion. Buy a vowel for God's sake. How much could it possibly cost for a single letter that clarifies all of this? My God.Clinton: Yeah, but then we wouldn't spend the first 20 minutes of every sales conversation talking about how to pronounce the company name and we would need to fill that with content. So, I think we're just going to stay the course from here on out.Corey: I like that. So, you're a principal solutions engineer. First, what does that do? And secondly, I've known an awful lot of folks who I would consider problem engineers, but they never self-describe that way. It's always solutions-oriented?Clinton: Well, it's because I worked for Snyk, and we're not a problems company, Corey, we're a solutions company.Corey: I like that.Clinton: It's an interesting role, right, because I work with some of our biggest customers, a lot of our strategic partners here in North America, and I'm kind of the evangelist that comes out and says, “Hey, here's what sucks about being a developer. Here's how we could maybe be better.” And I want to connect with other engineers to say, “Look, I share your pain, there might be an easier way, if you, you know, give me a few minutes here to talk about Snyk.”Corey: So, I've seen Snyk around for a while. I've had a few friends who worked there almost since the beginning and they talk about this thing—this was before, I believe, you had the Dobermann logo back in the early days—and I keep periodically seeing you folks in a variety of different contexts and different places. Often I'll be installing something from Docker Hub, for example, and it will mention that, oh, there's a Snyk scan thing that has happened on the command line, which is interesting because I, to the best of my knowledge, don't pay Docker for things that I do because, “No, I'm going to build it myself out of popsicle sticks,” is sort of my entire engineering ethos. But I keep seeing you in different cases where as best I am aware, I have never paid you folks for services. What is it you do as a company because you're one of those folks that I just keep seeing again and again and again, but I can't actually put my finger on what it is you do.Clinton: Yeah, you know, most people aren't aware that popsicle sticks are actually a CNCF graduated project. So, you know, that's that—Corey: Oh, and they're load-bearing in almost every piece of significant technical debt over the last 50 years.Clinton: Absolutely. Look at your bill of materials; it's there. Well, here's where I can drop in the other fun fact about Snyk's name, it's actually an acronym, right, stands for So, Now You Know. So, now you know that much, at least. Popsicle sticks, key component to any containerized infrastructure. Look, Snyk is a developer security company, right? And people hear that and go, “I'm sorry, what? I'm a developer; I don't give a shit about security.” Or, “I'm a security person”—Corey: Usually they don't say that out loud as often as you would hope, but it's like, “That's not true. I say that I care about security an awful lot.” It's like, “Yeah, you say that. Therein lies the rub.”Clinton: Until you get a couple of drinks in them at the party at re:Invent and then the real stuff comes out, right? No, Snyk is always been historically committed to the open-source community. We want to help open-source developers every bit as much as, you know, we're helping the engineers at our top-tier customers. And that's because fundamentally, open-source is inextricably linked to the way software is developed today, right? There is nobody not using open-source.And so we, sort of, have to be supporting those communities at the same time. And that fundamentally is where the innovation is happening. And you know, my sales guys hate when I say this, right, but you can get an amazing amount of value out of Snyk by using the freemium solution, using the open-source tooling that we've put out in the community, you get full access to our vulnerability database, which is updated every day, and if you're working on public projects, that's going to be free forever, right? We're fundamentally committed to making that work. If you're an enterprise that happens to have money to spend, I guess we'll take that too, right, but my job is really talking to developers and figuring out, you know, how can we reduce the amount of pain in your life through better security tooling?Corey: The challenging part is that your business, although I confess is significantly larger than my business, we're sort of on some level solving the same problem. And that sounds odd to say because I focus on fixing AWS bills and you're focused on improving developer security. But I'm moving up about six levels to the idea that there are only two big problems in the world of technology, in the world of companies for that matter. And the problem that we're solving is the worst one of the two. And that is reducing risk exposure.It is about eliminating downside. It's cost optimization, it's security tooling, it is insurance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the other problem, the one that I've always found, that is the thing that will get people actually excited rather than something they feel obligated to do is speeding up time to market, improving feature velocity, being able to deliver the right things sooner. That's the problem companies are biasing towards investing in extremely heavily. They'll convene the board to come up with an answer there.That said, you stray closer into that problem space than most security companies that I'm aware of just because you do in fact, speed up the developer process. It let people move faster, but do it safely at least is my general understanding. If I'm completely wrong on this, and, “Nope, we are purely risk mitigation, then this is going to look fairly silly, but it wouldn't be the first time I put my foot in my mouth.”Clinton: Yeah, Corey, it sounds like you really read the first three words of the website, right? “Develop fast. Stay secure.” And I think that fundamentally gets at the traditional alignment, where security equals slow, right, because risk mitigation is all about preventing problematic things from going into production. But only doing that as a stop gate at the end of the process, right, by essentially saying we assume all developers are bad and want to do bad things, and so we're going to put up this big gate and generate an 1100 page PDF, and then throw it back to them and say, “Now, go figure out all of the bad things you did and how to fix them. And by the way, you're already overshooting your delivery target.” Right? So, there's no way to win in that traditional model unless you're empowering developers earlier with the right context they need to actually write more secure code to begin with, rather than remediating after the fact when those fixes are actually most expensive.Corey: It's the idea of the people who want to slow down and protect things and not break are on the operation side of the world, and then you have developers who want to ship things. And you have that natural tension, so we're going to smash them together and call it DevOps, which at least if nothing else, leads to interesting stories on stages. Whether it actually leads to lasting cultural transformation is another thing entirely. And then someone said, “Well, what about security?” And the answer is, “We have a security department?” And the answer is, “Yeah, you know, those grumpy people that say no all the time whenever we ask if we could do anything.” “Oh, that security department. I ignore them and go around them instead.” And it's, “All right, well, we need help on that so we're going to smash them in, too.” Welcome to DevSecOps, which is basically buzzword-driven cultural development. And here we are. But there is something to be said for you can no longer be the Department of No. I would argue that you couldn't do that successfully previously, but at least now we're a little more aware of it.Clinton: I think you could certainly do that when you were deploying software a couple times a year, right? Because you could build in all of the time to very expensively and time consumingly fix things after the fact, right? We're no longer in that world. I think when you're deploying every few seconds or a few minutes, what you need is tooling that, first of all, runs at that speed, that gives developers insights into what risk are they bringing on board with that application once it will be deployed, but then also give them the context they actually need to fix things, right? I mean, regardless of where those vulnerabilities are found, it still ultimately is a line of code that has to be written by a developer and committed and pushed through a pipeline to make it back into production.And that's true, whether we're talking about application security and proprietary code, we're talking about vulnerabilities in open-source, vulnerabilities in the container, infrastructure as code. I mean, it used to be that a network vulnerability was fixed by somebody going into the data center, unplugging a Cat 5 cable and plugging it in somewhere else, right? I mean, that was the definition of network security. It was a hardware problem. Now, networking is software-defined. I mean [laugh]—Corey: Oh, the firewall I trust is basically a wire cutter. Yeah, cut through the entire cable, and that is the only secure firewall. And it's like, oh, no, no, there are side-channel attacks. It's not completely going to solve things for you. Yeah.Clinton: You know, without naming names, there are certainly vendors in the security space that still consider mitigation to be shutting down access to a workload, right. Like, let's remediate by taking this off of the internet and allowing it to no longer be accessible.Corey: I don't think it's come from a security standpoint, but that does feel like it's a disturbing proportion of Google's product strategy.Clinton: [laugh]. Absolutely. But you know, I do think maybe we can take the forward-looking step of saying there are ways to fix issues while keeping applications online at the same time. For example, by arming engineers with the security intelligence they need when they're making decisions about what goes into those applications. Because those wire cutters now, that's a line in a YAML file, right?That's a Kubernetes deployment, that's a CloudFormation template, and that is living in code in the same repo with everything else, with all of the other logic. And so it's fundamentally indistinguishable at the point where all security is really now developer security, except the security tooling available doesn't speak to the developer, it doesn't integrate into their workflow, it doesn't enable them to make remediations, it's still slapping them on the wrist. And this is why I think when you talk about—to invoke one of the most overused buzzwords in the security industry—when you talk about shifting left, that's really only half the story. I mean, if you're taking a traditional solution that's designed to slow things down, and shifting that into the developer workflow, you're just slowing them down earlier, right? You're not enabling them with better decision-making capacity so they can say, “Oh, I now understand the risks that I'm bringing on board by not sanitizing a string before I dump it into a SQL, you know, query. But now I understand that better because Snyk is giving me that information at the right time when I don't have to context switch out of it, which is, as I'm writing that line of code to begin with.”Corey: When I look at your website—and I'm really, really hoping that your marketing folks don't turn me into a liar on this one between the time we have recorded this and the time it sees the light of day in a week or so—it's notable because you are a security vendor, but you almost wouldn't know that from your website. And that is a compliment because at no point, start to finish, on the landing page at snyk.io do I see anything that codes to, “Hackers are coming to kill you. Give us money immediately to protect yourself.”You're not slinging FUD. You're talking entirely about how to improve velocity. The closest it gets to even mentioning security stuff is, “Ship on time with peace of mind.” That is as close as it gets to talking about security stuff. There is no fear based on this, and you don't treat people like children and say, “Security is extremely important.” “Thank you, Professor, I really appreciate that helpful tip.”Clinton: Yeah, you know, again, I think we take the very controversial approach that developers are not bad people who want to make applications less secure, right? And I think again, when you go into that 40-year trajectory of that constant tension between the engineering and the security sides of the house, it really involves certain perceptions about what those other people are like: security are bad and want to shut everything down; developers are, you know, wild cowboys who don't care about standardization and are just introducing a bunch of risk, right? Where Snyk comes