Podcast appearances and mentions of david bevington

In this episode of the Church Planting Podcast, Clint Clifton sits down with Thabiti Anybwile to discuss his testimony and hear what he has to say about his church planting journey. Thabiti Anyabwile (MS, North Carolina State University) is a pastor at Anacostia River Church in southeast Washington, DC, and a Council member of The Gospel Coalition. He’s the author of several books, including What Is a Healthy Church Member?, Finding Faithful Elders and Deacons, Reviving the Black Church, and others. He and his wife, Kristie, have three children.CREW MEDIA CPP – THABITIALBERT: This is the Church Planting Podcast. Thank you for tuning inALBERT: Every week we sit down with leaders who are shaping church planting efforts.ALBERT: Here’s your host Josh Turansky and Clint CliftonJOSH TURANSKY: Hey welcome to the church planting podcast my name is Josh Turansky. And that clicking noise you here is Clint Clifton…CLINT CLIFTON: Hey Josh.JOSH TURANSKY: …were recording this uh remotely. And uh Clint uh where are you recording from? What’s your space look like? CLINT CLIFTON: Well I’m in DC right now. I’m in my, in my office. Uhm good awesomeJOSH TURANSKY: I’m in my office which is the basement of a real houseCLINT CLIFTON: YeahJOSH TURANSKY: All the pipes and the wires lead uh, in here it’s very exciting.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. Everything looked cool in BaltimoreJOSH TURANSKY: It does. And this and this sound, this recording will be great as long as no one flushes the toiletCLINT CLIFTON: Oh yeah. Well it’s kinda cool like a uhm a graveyard or something. You know its like a little bit scary…JOSH TURANSKY: Yeah. CLINT CLIFTON: …but coolJOSH TURANSKY: Yeah. I love it.CLINT CLIFTON: You know I was in New York city all week. I uh stayed uhm down just right there by the Empire State building a for a meeting and boy that’s a scary city. Holy smokesJOSH and CLIFF: JOSH TURANSKY: Yeah. Oh it that there’s nothing like New York city it’s it’s cool.CLINT CLIFTON: I’m so glad I don’t live there. Cause I was pretty excited going I’ve been I’ve been there quite a few times but I was excited that I had a little down time with this meeting kinda walk around and boy I mean it’s yeah it’s a it’s a its’a not place I probably not like to live.JOSH TURANSKY: Yeah… CLINT CLIFTON: But I’m thankful that couple-minded people go move there but…JOSH TURANSKY: AmenJOSH TURANSKY: Yeah. It’s always amazes me that people will plant a church in such a dense area but then I think people probably think well I was nuts for planting in Baltimore so…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.JOSH TURANSKY: God give you grace to go to the place you’re called to yeah so.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah, He does.JOSH TURANSKY: This episode we’re gonna talk with Thabiti eh, Thabiti AnyabwileCLINT CLIFTON: JOSH TURANSKY: Did I did I pronounce that right?CLINT CLIFTON: That was like no not at allCLINT CLIFTON: It’s Thabiti uh commonlyJOSH TURANSKY: ThabitiCLINT CLIFTON: Commonly uhm you know messed up and uhm we talked about this just a little bit in the interview but, uhm ah Thabiti was born as Ron Burns which is so interesting people always asking where’s he from? And he answers North Carolina like he’s a uhm ethnically speaking standard uhm African-American born in North Carolina uh… JOSH TURANSKY: YeahCLINT CLIFTON: …with the name Ron Burns. And uhm, so his he’ll share some of his testament as to how he came to faith and or not didn’t came to faith excuse me. Converted to Islam and changes his name uhm…JOSH TURANSKY: Ah that’s rightCLINT CLIFTON: when he converted to Islam. And uhm so yeah. Fascinating man and like one of the most fascinating guys I’ve ever hung out with. Brilliant and that’s about itJOSH TURANSKY: He came on my radar. Sorry. He came on my radar when uhm, the black lives matter thing was going on and really hadn’t reached to uh a loud point. I think that was in 2015 and 2016. And he wrote uhm from his perspective as he was coming back from DC…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahJOSH TURANSKY: …and his concern about racial issues.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahJOSH TURANSKY: I think he wrote that on uh the Gospel Coalition website.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. Yeah he regularly writes on Gospel Coaltion. His probably one of the clearest voices in African-American Evangelical from an African-American Evangelical poppette perspective. He has a ministry called the front porch. Uh that’s ah you know writes and uh communicates uhm on social issues whole wide range of things and he’s he’s both brilliantly sort of kind of been pastoral and uhm sharp in his rebuke. You know in a way… JOSH TURANSKY: mhCLINT CLIFTON: …yeah its just a few people can pull off being that sharply uhm like you know exact with their rebukes. Ah but also, full of pastoral wisdom and kindness and gentleness. He’s very gentle man and uhm and his in a neighborhood in Washington that’s you know uhm no known you know for murder crimes and he went right into the thick of it and…JOSH TURANSKY: mhCLINT CLIFTON: …his really planted a fantastic church there called Anacostia River ChurchJOSH TURANSKY: Yeah wow powerful. So this is your interview that your did with him. You sat down with him had this discussion uhm let’s jump right into that right nowHave you ever had that experience of hearing a great idea? I mean a truly great idea and thinking “Oh! Why couldn’t that have been my idea?” Well I had that experience recently when I ran across a company called SpaceTogether. Now SpaceTogether was founded by a church planter and SpaceTogether is to the church world what AirBNB is to your family. It let’s you rent out your church spaces easily as AirBNB lets you rent out your home. You can rent out a part of the building for like a specific day and time or you can rent out the building in an ongoing way in a time where your facilities is under-utilized. And SpaceTogether has this great technology that helps you take under-utilized church space and create new opportunities for your congregation. Now exclusively for church planting podcast listeners SpaceTogether is offering a $1.00 posting fee. You can post your space on SpaceTogether for just $1.00 when you use the coupon code planter. And if you’re a church planter that needs space go on SpaceTogether and look at the places they’re offering and maybe you’ll find the perfect spot for your new church. You can learn more about SpaceTogether at the website spacetogether.comCLINT CLIFTON: Alright Pastor T thank you for joining me today. THABITI ANYBWILE: It’s good to be with you man. Thank you for having meCLINT CLIFTON: Yes so I wanna talk about your church planting journey at Anacostia River Church in Washington. But before we do that you have such an interesting back story do you mind uh sharing a little bit about where you came from? How you came to faith in Jesus?THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm. Grew up in the barbecue capital of the world – Lexington, North Carolina. More pork barbecue than any place in the planetCLINT CLIFTON: Is that vinegar-based?THABITI ANYBWILE: Oh no. That’s Eastern North Carolina I’m from Lexington North Carolina …CLINT CLIFTON: Oh right. Okay. Oh okay so its tomato-based. Oh manTHABITI ANYBWILE: So we got Lexington in Dallas right. So It’s the good stuff. Uhm this is a civil war between me and my wife. She’s from Eastern North Carolina so uhm. But I grew up there small town, North Carolina, bible belt. Youngest of 8 children. Uhm, All I really knew and in uh about the faith was uhm when my older brothers was getting into trouble…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …they went to church.CLINT CLIFTON: OkayTHABITI ANYBWILE: Trying to get themselves together. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: So church was a little bit more like rehab. CLINT CLIFTON: No.THABITI ANYBWILE: So uhm and and I saw that cycle of my older brothers in and out kinda of trouble and some moral reform and things of that sort.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm I got in trouble for the first time in my life really uhm as a rising junior in high school.CLINT CLIFTON: OkayTHABITI ANYBWILE: And uh had been like an ace student in a small-town athlete all that kind of stuff. And I thought “Oh man I’m in trouble. I don’t like this feeling. I’ve broken my mom’s heart. What should I do?” and a thought came to me ‘I should go to church.’CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Go to this little church and I think the Gospel is pretty much assumed?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: and not made clear? And uh I attend that church for 3-4 months and I thought “Okay. I need to make this stick.” So I joined the church responded to an alter call still not understanding the Gospel. Uhm become a member of that little church in some ways being socialized into the church. Bur wasn’t Born Again.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: And the outcome of that was uh a year or so later. Uhm I stopped attending. Went back to my sin. Uh went off to college angry young manCLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm there I met some Muslim men who introduced me to Islam. CLINT CLIFTON: Well.THABITI ANYBWILE: And converted to Islam. Practicing Muslim for about 4-5 years. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Before hearing the Gospel preached at a local church here in the DC area. My wife and I had miscarried our first child. A few months before Uhm Islam itself has started to crumble… CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …Uhm theologically for me. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: So I had had to sort of moved to a period bouncing between Agnosticism and Atheism. CLINT CLIFTON: OkayTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and were sitting in this little church and this pastor preaches uh an exposition Exodus 32CLINT CLIFTON: OkayTHABITI ANYBWILE: And it was a long Gospel. Uhm you know as he preached on idolatry from that golden passage. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uh I had come to realize. Islam was idolatry and I was convicted…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …And he preached Christ from that passage and for the first time the Gospel clicked…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …made sense. By the spirits working my heart.CLINT CLIFTON: And why were you in DC?THABITI ANYBWILE: Came to visit my sister-in-law. CLINT CLIFTON: Oh you were just visiting.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uh we were. It was interesting After the miscarriage I was sitting in that home a lot of days when I should have been at work just really depressed. Because that had been the sort of the birth of that child had a become our hope…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: And uhm, and so we lost that baby and so we were then hopeless. And then we were away. Then this preacher comes on television. He had a regular show on B&T. And uh he’s just preaching and it’s like someone had rewritten the bible. So the Lord started drawing me by His word. And so we discovered that Temple Hills… CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …was just outside of DC southeast DC where were are now. And my sister-in-law lived here. So we decided to come and visit my sister-in-law and then go to that church in Sunday. And uh the Lord ah met us in that church. My wife and I both were converted that Sunday. CLINT CLIFTON: And was that Eric Cragnon at that time? Who was it at the time?THABITI ANYBWILE: No no no it’s a guy names John Cherry. CLINT CLIFTON: John CherryTHABITI ANYBWILE: No no no it’s a guy names John Cherry. He’s gonna be with the Lord now. His son is is pastoring the church currently. So yeah we were converted under Pastor Cherry’s uh preaching. And uh began to grow under his his teaching and preaching.CLINT CLIFTON: WowTHABITI ANYBWILE: VIa these things that the kids won’t remember the call cassette tapes. CLINT CLIFTON: cassette tapes.THABITI ANYBWILE: All that all that good stuff but that’s…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …but that’s how the Lord saved usCLINT CLIFTON: Were you brushed over the uh the uh time of Islam in your life. That was a prolonged period of time. How long… THABITI ANYBWILE: Spent 4-5 years. CLINT CLIFTON: 4-5 years and…THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah.CLINT CLIFTON: …and the and you took your Islamic faith seriously.THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah. Absolutely. So I was a bit of campus Saul.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Because I had this experience in this little church that left me thinking Christianity was falseCLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and so, I would describe myself as an enemy to the cause really. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm zealous for Islam I lead uh at the time were a number of uhm college peers into Islam… CLINT CLIFTON: Oh.THABITI ANYBWILE: …was was zealous for the religion.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. So much so that you’ve changed your nameTHABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah…CLINT CLIFTON: ExactlyTHABITI ANYBWILE: Well that’s pretty typical to Muslim converts. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and I didn’t choose an Arabic attribute. Normally you would choose an Arabic attribute…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: But at the same time this was also the hayday of AfrocentrismCLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm so like my Lefie Ashanti, 91 barr Names most of your listeners would not know.CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: Who were in the late 80s and 90s at the forefront of Afrocentrism. And so the other thing that’s happening for me is I’m discovering sort of my own ethnic and racial…CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: …heritage. And so I chose the chose an African names.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Thabiti is borrowed from the Arabic but is a Swahili name it means loosely translated a True man…CLINT CLIFTON: AhTHABITI ANYBWILE: An upright man. And Anyabwile means God has set me free. YeahCLINT CLIFTON: And so the the logistics going through your name change like that you were in CollegeTHABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm.CLINT CLIFTON: And so you talked to your family about that. You did that legally.THABITI ANYBWILE: I did.CLINT AND THABITI: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: It’s it’s scary how easily it is legally. At the time you go down to the courthouse file uh name change certificate…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: posted on the courthouse not its been going for 5 days. Come back get it stamped and now you’ve legally got a new name. CLINT CLIFTON: Wow.THABITI ANYBWILE: So I I think they should make it tougher than that CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: But at the time that that process was simple. It was interesting the whole period of Islam with my family. As I said I would’ve regarded as my family as as nominally Christian.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm in my little town in North Carolina nobody never met a Muslim. You know and when I came home and talking about Islam. Uhm there was lots of kind of concerned curiosity.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: My mom when she’d grow concerned like that she just kinda listens. I would I would learn years later that she just prayed for me…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …spent years praying for me. Ah my siblings as I said I was the youngest of 8 kids. Their love language public ridiculeCLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: So uhm my siblings were like “Oh you’re not gonna eat this pork-chop sandwich?” CLINT CLIFTON: Oh. YesTHABITI ANYBWILE: You know and so and so uh there were lots of ribbing got lower questions “Why do you this? What does this mean?”CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: that kind of thing. You know?CLINT CLIFTON: Do you think they saw it as phase? As a phase?THABITI ANYBWILE: Uh probably. My siblings probably thought of it more as a phase. But my mom I think mom took it seriously. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: As I said my mom uh prayed uh faithfully for me. CLINT CLIFTON: Okay that’s interesting. I know there’s a lot to talk about in that category but uhm a few years ago you were pastoring a church in Grand Cayman Island…THABITI ANYBWILE: MhCLINT CLIFTON: …so tell us about that ministry. And why you decided to transition from that into church planting?THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah went there 2006 with no return ticket. I mean you get called to serve in the Carribean you don’t plan to come back so... Uh lovely church there yeah Saint Seth the uh first Baptist church of Grand Cayman. And at the time was a membership of uh I don’t know 300 to 350 people. Uhm from probably 35 Nationalities. Very diverse church. Uh International church. Uhm loved the gospel, loved each other, loved the country. And so it was a sweet 8 years serving with the men there on the eldership. Serving with the saints there at the church. And as I said we didn’t, my wife and I didn’t go with the idea that this we’re gonna be here for couple years and come back…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …We went to live the rest of our lives there. My son was born there. So he would regard himself as a CaymanianCLINT CLIFTON: MhTHABITI ANYBWILE: In his in his heart. Uhm, but probably about we were there for 8 years probably ‘bout year 5 or 6.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Through a set of interest things I found myself involved in uh I realized that some of what I thought was happening in a way of church planting and training guys for uh the ministry. In predominanty African-American context, wasn’t happening widely as I I had thought. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: There was a lot more work adjacent to those contexts. But not a lot of work in those contexts. At least from my sort of theological kind of tribe.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and so that began a season of praying and fasting for me and my wife. And I committed to my elders there that ever I had a serious thought about doing something other than pastoring that church…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: … they’d be the first to know. So my wife and I had a relationship retreat at the end of which she asked me the money question She said, “If you’ve never pastored in a predominantly African-American context were you could do some of the things the Lord had called you to do… CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: …training guys and planting other churches and so on but you are faithful for the rest for your ministry. And you never did that, would you, would you regret it?CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: And it’s about 2 o’clock in the morning on a Saturday morning and I was half-sleeping when she asked the question. And I sat up straight in the bed wide awake and thought “Yeah. I would regret that.”CLINT CLIFTON: Wow.THABITI ANYBWILE: So that Monday I began contacting my elders and said, “I just had a serious thought.” CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: About maybe doing something different. And we spent about a year together. Uhm praying, thinking through the ministry there…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …Thinking through what it would mean to come plant some place else…CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: thinking about the neighborhood the Lord began to draw us to… CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: And so they were really the counsel of men who helped me discern the sense of calling…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …And that and at the end of that year, uhm they affirmed that sense of calling.CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm they were kind enough to say basically. “We would rather you stay here.”CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: “But we don’t detect any sin in your motives…”CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: “And we see the need that you see…”CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: “And we’ll be supportive if that what the Lord calls you to do.” And so yeah that’s how we wound up making the decision to come back States side. CLINT CLIFTON: And you came back to your community you’re from Washington. Uhm, tell our listeners that doesn’t know Anacostia about Anacostia.THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah. It’s the part of Washington that they’ve never visitedCLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm Washington really is a tale of two cities.CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: A river runs through it. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Used all the clichés in the book title, right?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: The Anacostia River sort of divides what most people think of as Washington when you think of monuments and Capitol Hill and the white house…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: From the eastern and south-eastern part of the city. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: which is entirely residential. Yeah it’s a food dessert…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm has no significant business industry to speak of. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Is 92%? 94% African-American… CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …would trail the rest of the city if the median income of the city is $92,000.00? I think it’s like $92,000.00 household income it’s like $92,000.00 median income in this part of the city. Minimum income in this city is $32,000.00. So this is the uh poor uhm section of the city…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …with all the problem that come with that. With density and poverty come crime, struggling schools all those kinds of things. Uhm so this is the neglected part of Washington DC. You know?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. And uhm what was it I know you said you wanted be in a primarily African-American community, but what was it about Anacostia specifically that made you come here? THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah. Well its interesting. Southeast DC, Anacostia in particular, was going back to the 80s.,,CLINT CLIFTON: Mh.THABITI ANYBWILE: …when my sister-in-law lived in here, that was our introduction to DC…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: We knew nothing about the monuments…CLINT CLIFTON: Right. THABITI ANYBWILE: and anything of that sort. My sister-in-law lived in uh if you’re from DC you would notice a place lived in uh high-rise building called Mulberry Plaza on Good Hope road. Uhm and so we used to go visit her and get off the highway. Start immediately dodging the crater-sized potholes and make our way to Mulberry Plaza. This is back in the days where you need an invitation to come to the Southeast. It’s the height of the crack epidemic, the violence was out of control. Uhm, but their beautiful people who live here like my sister-in-law, right? And so we used to spend our time here in Southeast. This was back again late 80s and 90s. So when we fast forward 20 some years. When we started thinking about planting and asking the question where, people were making lots of suggestions. You know?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: ‘Why don’t you go to Charlotte? Or this place? Philadelphia da da da?’ And none of them seem to stick subjectively. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: And ironically, we had uh a couple come here from the Cayman Island. I had performed their weddings some years before. He’s from England. And he comes, and with his little soft British accent said “Have you thought about Anacostia?” And I’m thinking to myself “What do you know about Anacostia?” right?CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: But flares go off. And that might be it. And it’s interesting as time went on that though just began dominating my heart…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: with sense of Anacostia. This is where Fredrick Douglas made his home. CLINT CLIFTON: Yep. THABITI ANYBWILE: With rich history. Uhm this is in some ways, I would argue are the cultural capital of African-American DC.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: From Go-go music to mumbo sauce and all the things that Washingtonians love…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm, for all of its difficulties there’s just a lot of culture here…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: There’s a lot of richness here. There’s a lot of historical heritage here. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: And wonderful people here. And so our heart just began to be drawn inexorably towards Anacostia. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. But for a church planter. And the experience I have with church planters you are way over the age than what’s expected. I mean you have…THABITI ANYBWILE: that’s a very polite way of calling me old I appreciate that. CLINT CLIFTON: …and uh kids and their teens. And uhm you look living uh living a presumably comfortable life in uh in Cayman that transition couldn’t have been easy.THABITI ANYBWILE: Well, God’s just been gracious with us. Uhm, it’s been hardest for my son who was born in the Cayman Islands. Who only knew is flip-flops and shorts and snorkeling and beaches. I mean that was uh, that was his life and he loved it. His a bougie kind of kid. CLINT CLIFTON: THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm He knew nothing about States, and life here. And certainly nothing of an inner city and the problems here. So, he’s the one who’s had the hardest transition…CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: back in the States. The girls have lived here before in DC…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm. THABITI ANYBWILE: Capitol Hill. We were in a different church and so on. So they had uh, we left when they were 6 and 8. Came back and they’re like uhm, 14 15.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm. THABITI ANYBWILE: But they had some categories.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm, so they adjusted a bit better. Uhm, but God’s been gracious to us. So the sense of of things being hard, uhm have been met with God’s kindness. And we haven’t felt as as I’m sure many other folks would sometimes feel and that sort. So we hadn’t felt sort of uhm, the hardest things. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: I mean you’ve showed up uhm on a morning to do this conversation. My staff literally two blocks from the office… CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …just witnessed a shooting and a man bleeding in the street. Alright, so hard stuff has been happening all the time all around us. But God has comforted us. And been kind to us. And that sense of being in the middle of His calling?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Has just given us great liberty and great security even in the midst of a lot of hard things. CLINT CLIFTON: I guess if there’s a person listening would you address them to call to plant and they’d be wrestling with a call to plant in a place that’s hard for them to imagine them and their family being happy. And what would you have to say to them?THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah man, Clint Imma tell you what, part of what scared me in the Cayman Islands.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uh in that process of discerning whether or not to stay or not?CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: It became really clear to me that I could stay and be really comfortable…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …and that there’d be no challenges there. And nobody prodding me along spiritually to grow. Uhm, and that seemed to be a slow pleasant path…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …to a potential kind of spiritual deathCLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm so I was quickened by the idea that I shouldn’t need to be where my own soul sank.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: In a place that made me live in a more lean way…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: uhm that broke the tentacles of the world…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …off of my affections and desires. That if I wanted to live in comfort, I was living for the long thing…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …and If I were living at the expense of Gospel proclamation in communities that needed the Gospel…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …uhm, then I was doing a sinfully selfish thingCLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and so, the Lord just dealt with me and my heart in those ways… CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm. YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …and uhm and and so the idea coming as an older guy to plant a church in a tough neighborhood when I could’ve chosen uhm a softer path if you will. That that didn’t feel like any sacrifice to me because I needed it for my own soul…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …And I was convinced because of the reality of Hell and judgment…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …that it needed to be done. You know? In in all kinds of communities. But in in this community that we felt called to especially. CLINT CLIFTON: Did it take convincing with your wife and children?THABITI ANYBWILE: No that that my son was the slowest to get he was like “Why are we doing this?” Yeah. CLINT CLIFTON: How old was he?THABITI ANYBWILE: He was 6 at the timeCLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: You know? So he’s now the classic third culture kid…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …in between and and not really at home. But he took convincing. Uhm, but no my wife’s all-in men. And my wife will go through a wall for the Lord…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …and for the Gospel. And so, we shared this sense of calling that to us was affirmation. But I’ll tell you the other thing uhm planting as an older guy…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …Right? When you planted as a younger guy there’s a sense of which much of your life is still being aimed at uhm, stability and security and a sense of arriving.CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: …You planted an older guy you you’ve been living on that plain for a little bit.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Right? And you’re looking around and thinking “Okay is this it?” Uhm and, and I think out of that maybe older guys ought to have a clearer sense of what’s eternally important? CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and older guys ought to have maybe a more settled maturity that keeps them from being fattish…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …or easily discouraged or other things. CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: That maybe younger guys fail. So actually, we need more older guys planting churches. Uhm and maybe given the last 10 15 years of their ministry. Uhm to getting new work started in a way that hopefully gives them balances and ballast.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah that’s really good. I I have planted unwisely when I was 24 years old. I was unprepared in so many ways. And uhm, tourists have kind of been ingracious to me, and I grew through out the process but uhm I’ve told guys over and over again if I had to do it I certainly would have spent a lot more time uhm, preparing and sort of sharpening the axe so to speak, getting ready but the, we don’t have many uhm church planters in your age category. But the ones that are in your age category are more effective free-fall church planters. Yeah, generally speaking. And uh, definitely less tossed about the kind of difficulty struggles that come along with church planting. They’re more sober minded what they’re going into.THABITI ANYBWILE: I pray so. I hope so. But hopefully you’ve workedyou’re your theological commitments…CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: …you’ve worked out your ministry, philosophy, you know you’ve you’ve done that you know, in the ministry perhaps someplace else. Uhm, you’ve you’ve walked through the ups and downs of of caring for people Pastorally. And uh you perhaps then have a more well-formed sense of you’re not just church planting but your Pastor planting. You know you’re trying to put a Pastor in a context to build a church and hopefully that gives the work that more stability uhm just borne out of experience and hopefully some wisdom from experience. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. So on the issue of sort of race in the church when you think about when you spend a lot of your days right now influencing, teaching, writing to, speaking to primarily to white Pastoral audience. What do we, what do we need to know here, understand uhm about the current racial situation and our role as Pastors that we that we don’t understand.THABITI ANYBWILE: That’s a good question. Uhm, I’m reading Thomas Kidd’s new book right now who is an Evangelical. And uh, part of what that book is illustrating is that our racial problems are not new problems.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: That Evangelicalism as a movement uh, has always in some sense multi-Ethnic (?)CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: But it’s always also been complicated by uhm racial fault lines, racial sins, racial misunderstanding and so on. So you know, Whitfield can you know? Lead revivals…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …and convince State Legislators to uhm, enact slavery, and build plantations, build orphanages using slave labor. Well that crack you know in the foundations, right there from the beginning. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: And so part of what I would say to those pastors is man, read some good books on the issue. Thomas Kidd’s books is a great book uhm, Mark Knowles and David Bevington editor series on Evangelicalism 4-5 volumes…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …History of Evangelicalism. They do a good job in treating some of these issues especially Mark Knowles 2nd volume as a walk through that history. Uhm be honest about the history let the history inform us, it’s meant to be a blessing to us…CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: …not a threat. That’s the first thing I would say. Second thing I would say is uhm, try to learn not to bristle at unpleasant news and messages that are made to you to try and help you understand how other people are feeling and and engaging things. So for example if someone talks to you about privilege or White privilege don’t get offended by the labelling…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …try to understand what the other person is saying… CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …Try to enter into the experience and to see without, without again bristling at the label to see okay are they articulating a truth here? CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: What specifically is true? What might be off? What might be accurate? How should I benefit from them? So just sort of acquire a humble posture…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …of receiving. You know, hard truth. CLINT CLIFTON: Sort of a fundamental Christian posture.THABITI ANYBWILE: That’s exactly right. Years ago I heard Joel McArthur said “Hard truth makes soft people.” CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Now if that’s true, and I think it is. It’s true not just when were talking generally about the Gospel…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …its true when were saying hard things to each other about other topics too.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm and so, to receive that as a wound of a friend…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: It creates softness were there hadn’t been. So I would say that humble posture of receiving hard things. But I mean you agree with everything… CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …but try to listen well. Uhm, and then last thing I would say is. There’s a sense in which where were well pass the sell by date… CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …on quote-unquote conversations or the race conversations. Uhm, commit yourself to be a person of action. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: Right? So commit yourself to dealing some hard things perhaps. CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: And often times they’re only hard because of privilege. Because of being accustomed of being in control or being the majority or whatever the case maybe. But commit yourself to doing those things. CLINT CLIFTON: Could you give me an example of of...THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah I’m thinking of a church right now where it’s revealing its entire collection of processes and culture and thinking about “Okay were were people are hearing from our church family about where ethnic minorities feel comfortable, where they feel alienated, where they feel like they have access or don’t have access and and what are we doing to address that…?” CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …beyond sort of platitudes or general messages. How does that inform our hiring process…CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm.THABITI ANYBWILE: …So say we want a diversified church, what are we doing to diversify the staff? I mean really what actions are we taking?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm, in this particular church has a school and other so they’re just working through all of the ministries that hard conversation that really is about asking the next question or what do we do? What do we, how do we actually put shoe leather to this? And that it’ll look different for different churches. And I’m just sort of pressing the point about let’s get beyond the conversation. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: and say if this is a 300-year-old problem dating back to Whitfield and others…CLINT CLIFTON: MhmTHABITI ANYBWILE: Uh, we should probably have more progress under our beltCLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uh, and let’s be the generation that actually makes somes progress that makes some action and some risk in that way. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. That’s really helpful thank you for saying that. So going back to the church planting itself. The church is rooted now, how long how long you’ve been doing this?THABITI ANYBWILE: So it’ll be 5 years in April. Rooted rooted feels generous but I’ll take it. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. I know it feels fragile but really but in church planting terms you’re rootedTHABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm.CLINT CLIFTON: And so uhm, you’ve made the decision to lead the church to multiply early. I think in your like 2 or 3 years…THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm.CLINT CLIFTON: you guys sent out a church planter…THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm.CLINT CLIFTON: …just just in the city here. Walk us through making a decision like that.THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm. Well we wanted to make planting churches to be in our DNA CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: and so uh from the start we’ve had a missions budget that’s included International missions and uhm planting. So in that first year we actually contributed to another church plan uh financially in in Philadelphia CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Uhm, when we started church we had a Pastor an elder with us Jeremy McClain CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Who lived in Northeast DC just a couple of street. Very similar neighborhood as ours. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: He’s had a long ministry on this side of the river. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Running after school program and so on. And he’s been bleeding for a church in that neighborhood. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: And uhm, and we so like yeah we want to be planting in neighborhoods like this around the city and the country. Uhm and so through partnership with McClain Bible and Jeremy sense of calling with let’s about year 2 let’s go ahead and plant a new work.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: And uhm, and so it felt it felt right to us. It felt like what the folks in Acts might have done.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: And say Hey the Gospel is needed over there. Hey come help us over here. Uhm and let’s send, let’s send a team. ‘Cause we had about 8-9 people who lived in that neighborhood…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: …and another 3-4 who were willing to move to do that work. And uhm so we thought that okay that might be enough of a team to get a new gospel word started there. And uh, through that partnership with McClain, Jeremy’s calling, that team’s calling. We were privileged to send them off uhm going on about 2 years ago now.CLINT CLIFTON: Mhm. Most Pastors would have had the impulse or church planters would have the impulse or the thought or maybe advice for others that would have said “Yeah, maybe you should plant churches but maybe not on the 1st year 2 to 3 years. Uh so certainly you thought that uh…THABITI ANYBWILE: …and they maybe right they maybe wise. But for us you know it was like. We want to see the Gospel multiply. Not just our main membership.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: Right. So if there’s a choice keeping 12 more people here. Right ‘cause were talking about 12-15 people here…CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: And seeing a regular gospel witness form in a neighborhood that needs another one. Okay that’s a no brainer for me.CLINT CLIFTON: Right. Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: We want to see that witness form because we want to see that gospel multiplyCLINT CLIFTON: You say, you say it like it’s a no brainer but You and I both know most Pastors don’t think like that.THABITI ANYBWILE: Welll well it is because we’re selfish and insecure. Right?CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah.THABITI ANYBWILE: You know, and I have it in my heart at times too. We’re like uh, again Jeremy’s a Pastor with us. We only had three.CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: Right? So we’re going to lose a pastor…CLINT CLIFTON: Right.THABITI ANYBWILE: We’re going to lose 12 other folks Uhm in a town where it’s hard to do ministry.CLINT CLIFTON: Yep. THABITI ANYBWILE: You feel like you need to have every hands on deck. On one level you do.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. THABITI ANYBWILE: And as a new plant You feel like okay every new member gets us that much closed to being rooted and being established. Why would you send them off, till certain metrics are ticked. Well because in God’s economy you know ,right? It’s giving, it’s investing, it’s dying it’s planting that seed that actually gets multiplied. And so it becomes a question of Faith. And whether were living by faith. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah. That’s very John 12. Sort of sit down. THABITI ANYBWILE: Yeah that’s right. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah yeah that’s encouraging to hear. I see more and more Pastors I’m encouraged by. See more and more church plants while buying early.CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah yeah that’s encouraging to hear. I see more and more Pastors I’m encouraged by. See more and more church plants while buying early. And statistically speaking, you don’t know how much weight we put into this sort of thing. But churches don’t multiply in their first 5 years are very unlikely. They’re never multiply and you know I think about our church we we tried to we attempted to plant early. And sometimes failed…THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm. CLINT CLIFTON: and sometimes exceeded. THABITI ANYBWILE: Mhm. CLINT CLIFTON: And uhm but uhm every time we attempted to plant we learn something about doing it a little bit better. And certainly stretched and grew our faith congregations caused us to focus on kingdom issue rather than local issues.THABITI ANYBWILE: Amen.CLINT CLIFTON: …in a way that was really healthy for our church. I think it trained us in a good way. I hope that’s trueTHABITI ANYBWILE: I think that’s spot on. I think that’s been our experience too right?.uhm and that and that willingness to try and say a church succeed and sort of walk away with your tail between your legs discouraged. We go like Nope. Were going to keep trying and pleading with the Lord the blessings. CLINT CLIFTON: Yep. THABITI ANYBWILE: that’s been life giving to us and every time we’ve sent you know people away, the Lord has added. The Lord has brought more folks. Its almost as if His saying “If you’ll be faithful with a little I’ll make you faithful over much. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: that’s been life giving to us and every time we’ve sent you know people away, the Lord has added. The Lord has brought more folks. Its almost as if His saying “If you’ll be faithful with a little I’ll make you faithful over much.” Right? Which is right out from the scripture. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: So that’s been our experience too. We were joyous as a church to see them go off. But there was some of our dearest friends. So we also wept, uhm but between mad and supporting missionaries early on. We sent out first short term team to Mombasa Kenya, were about a year and a half old. Uhm and so, seeing missions teams go off and things of that sort. Uhm, its just gave us a heightened sense of the Lord’s at work here. CLINT CLIFTON: YeahTHABITI ANYBWILE: And good things are happening here even before we thought they would and you know isn’t that wonderful? Let’s ask for more. CLINT CLIFTON: Yeah thanks. Uh, Pastor T, would you mind closing today by praying for the church planters who are listening and would you send them and strengthen them?THABITI ANYBWILE: I would be happy to. Father we thank you so much for raising up men to herald your gospel. For sending us into the world to make Jesus known to the flourishes of preaching. We believe that the flourishes of teaching is Your power and that the Gospel is Your power to save all those who believe. Lord in, uhm, new and bustling suburban communities and hard scrapple, inner city, neighborhoods, rural areas yes Lord and everything in between, we praise You for the power of Your gospel to convert and to build a church. And we just pray that you would encourage those whom you have called. You would give them confidence for their calling. We pray that you would give them. Wisdom and in some cases perhaps beyond their years in their experience. You give them a subtleness oh Lord in the truth of your scripture. And that you would quicken older men and older women to go out on church planting teams and to uh add Lord the blessings of experience uhm, to your work. Do all these things for your glory and for the spread of the good news and uh The salvations of the nations we pray. Bless the work of name. Bless the work of Nham, bless the work of the News City Network, bless Clint in his work and encouraging in equipping planters raise up a legion of Gospel uhm driven sold-out men and women to take the good news to the nations we pray. In Jesus name Amen CLINT CLIFTON: Amen. Thanks PastorALBERT: Where do church planters come from? Well they don’t come from seminaries and they don’t come from a factory. Church Planters come from congregations. Their developed by Pastors who love and are prepared for Gospel ministry and sent out. But many churches don’t know where to begin and many Pastors are overwhelmed with the day to day duties of Pastoral ministry and don’t have time to put together a robust training program for the people in their congregation to be equipped. The North American Nation Board is helping with this. They have developed a thing called the Multiplication Pipeline. And it’s a three-level training course that takes place through multiple years for you to have the material and the guidance to get somebody in your congregation ready for church planting. The Multiplication Pipeline is available on Nhams’ website, you can find it at nham.net/pipeline.ALBERT: Thank you for listening to the church planting podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review of your favorite podcast today.Today’s episode of the church planting podcast is sponsored by News City Network, The Church Planting Ministry of McClain Bible. A special thanks to todays guest Garrett Kell for taking time to join us. Josh Turansky produces todays show. Zukey Bastien was our show runner and her husband Nick was our editor. Thanks to Hudson Turansky and Marvin Moore who provided administrative and web support for the program and last but not least thanks to you for listening through to the end of the church planting podcast. Hey if you’d like to know more information about the show visit our brand-new website www.churchplantingpodcast.org. There you can see past episodes as well as notes as links for today’s show. And be sure to tune in next week our guest will be Svava who happens to be the master of the gift.

This special episode features Professor David Bevington, who passed away on August 2, 2019. In the episode, Professor Bevington talks about his profound understanding of Macbeth as a tragic character who is driven by fate while also having his own choice. He also shares his interpretation of the power of evil in Macbeth with us as he analyzes Macbeth’s characteristics. By dedicating the whole special episode to Professor Bevington, we hope that more people will listen to and benefit from Professor Bevington’s deep understanding of Macbeth and Shakespeare. Listeners will be able to discuss his view on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, or on rereadingspodcast.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

David Bevington, the Phyllis Fay Horton Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in the Humanities and in English Language & Literature, Comparative Literature, and the College at the University of Chicago, joins us to discuss the history, themes, and significance of William Shakespeare’s Troilus and Cressida. A production of WCWP Studios - LIU Post Public Radio. Visit us at WCWP.org

If you experience any technical difficulties with this video or would like to make an accessibility-related request, please send a message to digicomm@uchicago.edu. Following his Harper Lecture “Love and Friendship in Hamlet,” noted Shakespeare expert David Bevington held a live webchat with alumni viewers. Bevington is the Phyllis Fay Horton Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in the Humanities, Professor in English Language and Literature and Comparative Literature, and Chair of Theatre and Performance Studies at UChicago. Watch his Harper Lecture at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcINjKluVB8 Visit Alumni & Friends at http://alumniandfriends.uchicago.edu/

If you experience any technical difficulties with this video or would like to make an accessibility-related request, please send a message to digicomm@uchicago.edu. Following his Harper Lecture “Love and Friendship in Hamlet,” noted Shakespeare expert David Bevington held a live webchat with alumni viewers. Bevington is the Phyllis Fay Horton Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in the Humanities, Professor in English Language and Literature and Comparative Literature, and Chair of Theatre and Performance Studies at UChicago. Watch his Harper Lecture at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcINjKluVB8 Visit Alumni & Friends at http://alumniandfriends.uchicago.edu/

If you experience any technical difficulties with this video or would like to make an accessibility-related request, please send a message to digicomm@uchicago.edu. Noted Shakespeare expert David Bevington discusses how "Hamlet" presents amorous love as deeply problematic and doomed to failure, while male friendship emerges as a spiritual bulwark for the protagonist. Bevington is the Phyllis Fay Horton Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in the humanities, professor in the departments of English and comparative literature, and chair of theater and performance studies.