Podcasts about kara oh

Wayfair Head of Brand Marketing Kara O'Brien joins The Current Podcast to discuss blending the in-store and digital shopping experience. Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Ilyse: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kara O'Brien, Head of Brand Marketing and Analytics at Wayfair. [00:00:11] Ilyse: For years, Wayfair has been an online one stop shop for people looking for everything from beds to couches to kitchen appliances. In fact, for those browsing home goods, the choices often seem endless. [00:00:23] Damian: I know, because I've spent many long hours looking for the perfect bathroom cabinet to fit into my tiny New York apartment. But seriously though, one of the big draws for Wayfair has always been its reasonable prices for its products. [00:00:35] Ilyse: Wayfair is famous as an e commerce platform, but now that's changing. In May, the company opened its first brick and mortar store. start by asking Kara about why the company made this move. [00:00:47] Ilyse: First, I believe congratulations are in order because Wayfair opened its first brick and mortar store back in May. [00:00:54] So, why don't you walk us through the decision to make the leap into a physical storefront?[00:01:00]  [00:01:00] Kara: Absolutely We are so excited about this milestone. It's something that's been a long time coming. I personally have been at Wayfair for 10 years, and it has been one of the peak moments of my time there to see our brand come to life physically. so why now? I mean, our ethos has always been to deliver the best possible experience for our customer, and now we want to really be able to do it however they shop and however they choose to shop. [00:01:24] And so to be able to bring the It's a product to the customer. Let them see it in person, help guide them through the purchasing process. It's it makes a ton of sense. And, consumer demand has shifted so much during and since the pandemic, there was, pretty strong move to buying these more considered purchases online when people had no option to go in store. [00:01:46] But, now we're seeing the pendulum swing back and the consumer preference is to have a mix, to have a balance, to be able to see things in person, but have the convenience of being able to shop and research from home.  [00:01:57] Ilyse: Yes, now I know I'm, I have an apartment in New York and i've spent too many hours on Wayfair, probably. [00:02:03] Kara: - love to hear that. [00:02:04] Ilyse: but why did you land on Wilmette, Illinois for this touch point? And how are you bringing the brand to life in store? [00:02:12] Kara: Yeah, to start with Wilmette, I think there's two big considerations that ended up there. one is convenience. And so we really want to make shopping for your home as easy as possible. It's a process. It's something that's so important to so many people. [00:02:25] And so we don't want the process itself to feel onerous. And so for us, we had found this wonderful space. It's in a revitalized shopping center. It's surrounded by suburbs with lots of young families who are really kind of our core customer. And then the access to the broader Chicagoland, uh, area was fantastic. [00:02:45] So that's always been a strong market for us. But more on the business side, it's, It's very well positioned within our logistics network, and to kind of come back to that idea of convenience, we can ship products to, directly to customers home instead of trying to fit something [00:03:00] large and bulky in the back of your trunk. [00:03:02] And so we're able to do that fast, free, easy, when they've seen something in store or if they've explored beyond. [00:03:10] Ilyse: mortars follow or? [00:03:12] Kara: I think that's the idea eventually, but I think one thing we're really trying to do is learn at being an e commerce company. First, there's so much one way conversation that you have with the customer through your marketing, through your site. This is an opportunity to have that two way conversation. [00:03:28] And, we recognize we're new to the space. We're going to learn a ton and hopefully be able to apply that [00:03:34] Ilyse: what  [00:03:34] Damian: to what extent does the physical store help build the brand perception? And I know you sort of touched on that, but what I'm interested in is, it's known as an e commerce platform, and here you are now building out a physical store. [00:03:46] So What does that do? How does that help? [00:03:49] Kara: Yeah, well, I think it's rooted in who we were as an e commerce company, right? We have so many different types of products. We have, tens of millions of products on site. [00:04:00] And so the challenge at hand was really how do you take that vast selection and put it into a box, right? You can only put a finite number of products in. [00:04:08] And so for us, what we were really trying to solve for is how do you at Google Demonstrate that breadth, but still assist people through that purchasing process so that they can find that thing they were looking for, even if they didn't even know they wanted it. And so a lot of our philosophy was we want to be able to give you departments that are specific to a space, but we also wanted to have a through line that We're specific to your style. [00:04:34] So the way you can shop the store, it's not, living room over here, bedroom over here, completely cordoned off. It's more of a choose your own adventure. So if I have multiple projects and I have a modern aesthetic with a little bit of a rustic twist. We have pathways to carry you through. [00:04:49] If you are mission driven and just need a new set of pots and pans, we can get you there quickly too. and so then the other thing that's a component to that, given how much we have, is the [00:05:00] support needed along the way. And so we have our associates trained to help you find the things you want, if you want a different color, we can show you that through our e commerce platform, but then you know that the size is perfect because you saw it in the store. [00:05:12] Damian: So you're connecting the in store experience to the digital experience. [00:05:16] Kara: closely. The technology enablement was so important to us. We wanted to make sure people could understand again that endless aisle, but make it a very shoppable experience in store. we also are going to be launching new services like design services to help customers complete that project with confidence. [00:05:31] and so very much want it to be an interplay. Now, [00:05:40] Ilyse: back in March, which included a full omni channel activation featuring celebrity spokespeople and an updated logo. What were the most successful lovers within this campaign, and are there any surprising insights so far? Yeah, well, we [00:05:54] Kara: Yeah, we were really excited to bring this to market. along with this campaign, we have a revised tagline [00:06:00] of every style, every home. And I think the whole goal in the campaign was to be able to show that, not just say that. And so by bringing in different personalities, some recognizable, some just relatable, we felt like we could showcase that breadth, but in ways that, a consumer looks at the ad, the campaign and says, Oh, I see myself in that. [00:06:17] I know that I can get what I'm looking for. as it comes to the winds, it's still early days, just launching in March. Not a ton of time. But we're seeing really positive response to the casting to the breadth of personalities were showing. It's quite memorable as a result. So we're seeing good spikes in attention metrics. [00:06:35] We know it's resonant, and we know that people are associating it with wayfair. So for us, that own ability was a really important goal in the campaign. [00:06:43] Ilyse: TV spots during the Oscars. Yes. What was the impact of those pretty high profile ads? [00:06:49] Kara: Oh, I think it was really nice as we went on this more of an evolution than a revolution of the brand. It was really nice to be able to showcase that in a big splashy way and have as many people [00:07:00] see it as possible. And then as you've seen and will continue to see over the course of the year, we're really building on that. [00:07:06] So we have a few different spots. They all exist in this world of the waverhood and, that sort of, The sort of universal experiences that people have in their communities are the things we're trying to show in all different ways. Now beyond those [00:07:19] Damian: Now beyond those big TV spots, are there other sort of digital channels that you're exploring? [00:07:24] Kara: lot of this campaign was not just about the what, but the where. And so we've definitely taken an expanded lens to how we show up for our customers, and really trying to make sure we understand where they're spending time. We show up there and then as a result are additive to their experience, too And you know some of the newer spaces were in definitely moving more into streaming video Moving more into audio which we hadn't done before home tends to be quite a visual category So that's been a really exciting experiment for us and then working with all sorts of creators I think that's an emerging area [00:08:00] for us but really important for thinking about home and showcasing style and self expression [00:08:06] Damian: a sort of Specific demographic. You mentioned young homeowners. That's interesting. And that perhaps predetermines which channels you might like to engage people in. [00:08:16] Kara: Absolutely. [00:08:17] we are a mass brand. We do have something for everyone. But at the same time, when you think about who's spending disproportionately on their home, who has more needs, it's definitely the folks who are going through these meaningful life events where their notion of home is changing. And so really the sort of bullseye of that are young families. [00:08:36] you're getting married, you're moving in together, you're trying to merge styles maybe successfully, maybe less successfully, you have parents who are now thinking about safety and designing a nursery all the way through durability as the kids get older. And then, moving on up through to empty nesters. [00:08:53] There's a very different set of needs. So we really want to start with that sort of nucleus of a starter family, a young family, [00:09:00] and grow the relationship from [00:09:01] Damian: That absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:11] Ilyse: an e commerce company? That's [00:09:13] Kara: that's a fantastic question. for us, we're longtime digital marketers. Digital is a very direct path to our site. And so a lot of the challenges when you're, telling a story and you're trying to guide towards that less direct path to get to site, how do you do so? And, help the customer understand what they should expect when they show up. [00:09:31] And so for me, the things that I'm thinking about all the time are storytelling. Really trying to make sure that we are contextually relevant wherever we're showing up, again, something that we're tackling with the new distribution channels. and then really making sure that a company that has been so digitally minded is making that connection. [00:09:50] And so, now under my purview is our on site team. Marketing team and thinking about when you see us in a TV ad, and then you show up on our home page. How do we make that feel like a [00:10:00] continuous journey? so it's definitely been a journey. I think it's an exciting one. Again, as somebody who's been with this brand for a long time, it's really exciting to see us lean more into that storytelling. [00:10:09] Ilyse: So you've been with Wayfair now for over 10 years. In that time frame, How would you categorize and characterize the changes in the media landscape? [00:10:20] Kara: I really think how the consumer expects to discover content has changed dramatically. Where they go, Who they go to, how they think about sharing. It's just, it's changing so rapidly and continues to do so. So for us, as we think about a category that is quite emotive, quite personal. Quite unique to an individual. [00:10:43] We want to make sure that we can show up in a way that helps somebody discover what they're looking for or discover that perfect piece. And so, you know, insofar as the media landscape, it's not just turning to a single celebrity or a single friend. You actually have access to so much. And so, we want to be a [00:11:00] breakthrough voice. [00:11:00] We want to help people parse through that and find that perfect thing, which ends up being then this ultimate combination of content and commerce.  [00:11:09] Ilyse: How does Wayfair go about measuring the impact of the users on its sites?  [00:11:16] Kara: yeah. So I mean, picking up on that thread of bridging the offline and the online, I think what's been, you know, a challenge faced by many brands is that you have to think about that total ecosystem that a customer is interacting with and how you can understand how they're moving through it, what they're seeing, what they're reacting to. [00:11:34] And so for us, we've been on a little bit of a journey to expand how we think about measurement. we've Certainly done a lot of investment in multi touch attribution, especially being more digitally native. we're expanding to think about running different kinds of experiments, understanding, lift on brand metrics over the short term and over the long term. [00:11:54] and then adding to our based model arsenal. what's great about being e commerce [00:12:00] first, though, is we do get a lot of first party data on our customers. We can see how they move around our site. We know where they've come from, largely, and we can start to stitch that story together so that we can serve them better through personalized mediums as well as an aggregate understand, where they're gravitating towards. [00:12:17] Ilyse: What are some of the major KPIs that you try to hit or some of those analytics that you really strive for? [00:12:25] Kara: Yeah, for us, we always just want to build a notion of impact. And I think what's been growing us as marketers is that's not a singular definition. And so it depends on the campaign. It depends on the goal of the test. when we're thinking about offline marketing or brand marketing, we're looking for immediate recall. [00:12:44] We're looking for a lift in certain impression metrics. or, perception metrics, rather, depending on what we're trying to convey through the campaign, all the way through to more of the mid funnel and consideration, where are we driving visits? What share of those are from new customers versus prior customers?[00:13:00]  [00:13:00] And then how are those customers engaging on site? Are they purchasing right away? Did they come in because they saw a specific category or style? All the way through to how many visits does it take before you're comfortable making a large purchase? and so we follow them, you can call it a funnel, though it tends to not be quite so linear as a funnel. [00:13:18] Um, yeah. [00:13:19] Ilyse: in some cases, the funnel has kind of died with like e commerce. Yeah, [00:13:23] Kara: it's much more of, I said the word before, an ecosystem, right? Like things are moving together non linearly and it's about telling that story, that narrative internally and then playing it back to the customer to give them what they're looking for.  [00:13:37] Damian: as we, you know, look to 2025, what are the things that are sort of exciting you in terms of innovation when it comes to marketing? [00:13:44] Yeah, [00:13:48] Kara: and back again, I think we really want to create a total experience for customers, and that'll be through storytelling. That'll be through working with different types of [00:14:00] partners, really thinking about how consumers want to do discovery, and, that's going to be a big focus for us. [00:14:06] I think like many brands, we are exploring the right use cases for AI to power a lot of what we do. There's everything from the, the stuff behind the walls of how do you get more efficient in your processes all the way through, expanding the number of creatives you're able to put out in a given test. [00:14:24] so that's very much an area of investment and innovation for us. and then, you know, as we continue to learn through the store, going back to where we started and understanding how we can just make customers lives easier, you think about expanding that to the entire delivery experience, any type of follow on customer service that's needed. [00:14:44] There's a lot of places where we think we're quite differentiated and we always want to take a technology first approach to it. [00:14:51] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:14:53] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:14:56] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current [00:15:00] team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. And remember,  [00:15:03] I'm Damian. [00:15:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:15:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Kara joins us today from the Los Angeles area sharing her VBA2C story! Kara's first birth was a scary and chaotic emergency Cesarean. Though her second planned Cesarean went smoothly, Kara did not love how her birth felt like such a medical procedure. After experiencing a miscarriage during her third pregnancy, Kara experienced heartache and grief, but also shares how she gained a deep reverence for her body throughout the process. She just knew that her body was capable of having a vaginal birth. Kara pulled out all of the stops with her VBA2C prep. She built a birth team she felt great about. She prepared physically. She processed past fears and trauma. Though her birth had some intense twists, Kara was able to achieve the VBA2C she fought so hard for. She took the leap of faith, trusted her body, and saw what it could do.Kara's WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 02:45 Review of the Week 05:09 Kara's first pregnancy 08:17 Kara's second pregnancy and planned Cesarean10:57 Miscarriage16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prep22:30 Beginning of labor25:08 Thoughts about the hospital system28:49 Breaking waters32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICUMegan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Meagan and we have got a VBAC after two C-sections story. Of course, I love VBA2C stories because I'm a VBAC after two C-sections mama. Her name is Kara and she is amazing. I'm just going to read your bio because you are just amazing. It says, “She is an award-winning creative marketer and mother of three. She is in LA.” If you have been listening for a little bit, she actually was on the show quite a few months ago at this point of being aired with her OB. Kara: Oh yes, with Dr. Brock. Oh my gosh, when I was pregnant. I don't know why I forgot about that, but we interviewed my practitioner, Dr. Barry Brock, together who is a very VBAC-supportive provider. That was a really fun conversation. I think I was 4 or 5 months pregnant at that point. Meagan: Yeah. We really wanted to ask him some questions about VBAC. He was with you along your journey and he was so gracious to come on and talk with us. So yeah. She has worked on so many amazing things, some of your favorite things I'm sure like Netflix, Stranger Things, which is definitely one of my favorites, Patrone Tequila, and some of your favorite women's apparel brands at Target which is also my favorite store. She started her own brand consulting agency, Always Friday, in 2019, and after the birth of her first daughter, Hadley, she experienced an emergency C-section with her and then a planned C-section, and then a miscarriage, and then went on to have a VBAC after two C-section story. We are going to hear all of the stories today. Thank you, Kara, for being here. Kara: Yes. I'm so excited to be here. I love this community and I don't think that I could have gotten to a place where I was having a VBAC without your podcast, without finding The VBAC Link Facebook group and just hearing other women really give me the encouragement to not do a third C-section. I am really happy. I'm just about three months postpartum now, so forgive me if I make no sense. Yeah. I'm just grateful for your guidance, your expertise, and all of the things that you pour your heart into as an expert on all things VBAC. Meagan: Aw. Kara: Thank you for that. Meagan: Well, thank you so much. I'm so excited to hear this story because I haven't even heard the full story. I just have this little blurb right here on my form, so I'm really excited to dive into it. 02:45 Review of the Week Meagan: We do have a review of the week and I put Kara on the spot you guys because she actually took Needed during her pregnancy and first, I'm obsessed with Needed and love and trust Needed. You took it throughout pregnancy and I would just love to hear your review on Needed today. Kara: Yes. I have obviously looked at all of these different types of prenatals and I ended up going with Needed and loved it. I did their prenatal multi and at first, I was like, “This is a little wild.” It's eight capsules which felt aggressive, but it actually was so much of the nutrients that I needed. I broke it up to four in the morning and four towards the evening. I felt the most energized during this pregnancy. I felt the strongest. I obviously did all of the things, drank all of the tea, had the protein, the dates, and all of that, and my baby was much– I mean, I don't know if this is correlated or not, but my baby was almost a pound and a half bigger than my previous biggest baby and I felt the strongest, the healthiest that I've ever felt during any of my pregnancies. I wish I would have taken it with the other two, but you live and you learn, so yeah. I highly recommend that to all of my friends and I always send people the link for the Needed vitamins whenever I can. Meagan: Yes. I believe it so much too. It's interesting that you said you have felt the most energy during this pregnancy because I feel like once you have one, two, and three– once we have more kids, during those pregnancies, they are more exhausting because we are not just able to rest and relax. Kara: They are. Meagan: We are being mom, right? So I love hearing that. 05:09 Kara's first pregnancy Meagan: Okay, let's get into your stories. Kara: Let's do it. Cool. I'm excited. Meagan: Perfect. Let's talk about Hadley's birth. Kara: Yes. I got pregnant pretty easily and had a healthy pregnancy. I think maybe had this false sense of confidence that my delivery would match my pregnancy. I did not do a lot of prep work. I went into maybe how everyone does to some degree, what you don't know you don't know kind of thing. I went into labor naturally. I was a little bit overdue and ended up sort of with the classic cascade of interventions. That was challenging. They broke my water and just set off a bunch of other things that then her heart rate went up, sort of the classic stories you hear, and they rushed me into an emergency C-section which was really scary. It felt like a true emergency like Grey's anatomy style just being rushed down the halls, with no time for really conversation. I finally asked for my operating notes and it was a class 2 which I guess if it's a class 1, you guys talk about it. If it's a class 3, you or the baby didn't make it. It was really scary and honestly, I was terrified after. I think it took three weeks for my shoulders to come down from that C-section. I've said this before, but the only way I could describe it was it felt like a car crash and I wasn't sure if my passenger made it. It was quiet in the room. I didn't hear a baby crying. Nobody was really talking. I just remember tears streaming down my face while I was on the operating table completely unsure if my baby had made it. Luckily, she's healthy and fine, but I don't think that took away from the birth trauma that I experienced with that first baby. Meagan: Yeah. That just gave me the chills when you described it like that. How scary. Kara: It was so scary. I've never seen my husband look so afraid before. I've never seen him pray out loud before. So yeah. It was just one of those things where I wasn't mentally prepared for that. I was not up to date on how many women have C-sections and what you can do to prevent it. I guess in this Instagram world that we live in, you see your friends pregnant and they are cradling their bump and then the next square you see in their feed is a baby announcing its name and weight. You never get to hear unless you ask people how you got from point A to point B, right? That was very just this naivety that you go into the hospital and you come out with a baby and you're fine. I don't know why I didn't maybe do a better job researching all of the options. That was baby number one. 08:17 Kara's second pregnancy and planned CesareanKara: Baby number two– I got pregnant about a year later. Again, quickly and easily thank God and all of that. It was the middle of COVID. It was 2020. I found out I was pregnant in March 2020 so it was sort of the peak of absolute fear and scare tactics to a degree. I kept trying to wrap my head around going into labor again naturally and I just couldn't get there. I would have borderline panic attacks every time I would think about it. The word birth trauma wasn't a word or a phrase in my vocabulary so I just thought you kind of toughen up and figure it out. I just really couldn't get there. COVID every day, a new study came out basically saying that pregnant women are going to die. Meagan: Yeah. Lots of scary stuff was coming out. Kara: I opted for a planned C-section. That just seemed like the logical thing to do at that point. My husband couldn't come to any of the appointments. I couldn't have anyone else in the room. I was delivering with a mask on. It was all of these things that just took away from what is a natural birth experience so to speak and all of the things that you need. It eliminated a lot of that and made it this very sterile process that resulted in a great, planned C-section. I can't describe it any other way than it just felt like surgery. I hate to say that because you get a beautiful baby at the end of it and you created this beautiful baby. I'm not trying to take away anyone's experience with a planned C-section. But for me, it felt like I scrubbed in for surgery and went into this sterile environment. I was put on a lot of different drugs, laid on the table, cut open, and a baby was handed to me. I have a beautiful three-year-old named Hazel from that experience, but it ultimately left me feeling– I don't know how to describe it, but not fulfilled in the way I wanted to feel. Meagan: Yeah. I can understand that. I can understand that. Like you said, not everyone is going to experience this, but there is often this disconnect. You went in. You scrubbed in and had a baby. Everyone is sterile and quiet. It's bright. There is beeping here and there. It just doesn't feel sometimes like birth. Kara: Right. Yeah. It felt like a surgery. 10:57 MiscarriageKara: So then we were going back and forth with if we wanted to have a third and ultimately decided we love being parents. I love being a mom so much. I love my work. I love the branding things I do but nothing compares to the purpose, fulfillment, and joy that I feel raising children and being a mom. I got pregnant again and it felt exciting but it also felt like it was coming at a time during my career that was potentially the busiest. Long story longer, I had a miscarriage with that baby and that pregnancy at almost 12 weeks. That was so surprising to me because once again, so similar to C-sections and all of that, it just was not on my radar. I maybe took a lot of things for granted with my very healthy and easy pregnancies. No issues, truly with the first two. That miscarriage was scary in that I was alone at home with the girls. I put down my children for sleep and then I got in the bathtub and basically delivered the placenta. I saw. It was my first experience and the closest thing I had to delivery so far because I normally have C-sections. I'm seeing a lot of blood. I'm seeing the placenta and I'm seeing what was my unborn child. Sorry to be so graphic. Meagan: It's hard. Kara: Yeah. Yeah. I felt like– and you have contractions and all of that for anybody who hasn't ever experienced a miscarriage. It's not anywhere near the same amount of pain as labor, but it is way above a period cramp or however else anyone might want to describe it at least for me. Weirdly though, I have to say that you would think that experience would make me really sad and it did. The number one thing I took out of it is that I felt incredibly empowered. I felt like my body knew what it was doing. I felt a deep sense of trust in that, “Wow. This was not the right thing to happen and my body was smart enough to get rid of what wasn't a viable fetus and pregnancy. It knew something was wrong and it got rid of it for me.” It's like, wow. All of that while I made chicken nuggets. That's so exciting. I really walked away from it feeling like, “Gosh. The female body is so incredible. It is so strong. It knows what it is doing. It is so powerful. Why wouldn't I go for having the birth that I want to have which was a vaginal delivery?” So yeah. It was sad but also strengthening in a way. Meagan: Yeah. A really sad situation and unfortunate circumstances, but in the end, it was that healing, empowering thing that happened to get you to this next step. Kara: Yes. There is something about listening to yourself and your own gut and your own body in a way that you really just start to know that you know what's best. My husband wasn't there and something took over in me that was like, “Get in the bathtub.” I have no experience. I visualized this pain leaving my body. When I did that and breathed through it, I was able to deliver the unborn baby. It was 12 weeks. Yeah. So for me, it was really incredible. It gave me just the strength to know that I can do it and that our bodies are so, like I said, powerful and women are just so strong. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Kara: Yeah. Yeah. 16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prepKara: So then I got pregnant again and was confident I wanted a VBAC. I took your course and it gave me a sense of confidence and was so intelligently designed to make me think about visualizing fear, letting go of fear, and things that I really wish I would have done almost before I had a baby to be honest with you of just all of the things you don't realize you are holding inside of you of the unknown, of what could go wrong, what you don't know, what you want to ask, what you hope for, what you are going to let go of, and just filled with great information. That course was really helpful for me and my husband so for anyone who is looking to achieve a VBAC or do a VBAC, I highly recommend educating yourself with a course like The VBAC Link's course or just one that can get you to a place where you guys are both really–Meagan: Feeling confident too in the decisions you are making. Kara: Yeah. So I did that and honestly, with this pregnancy, I was like, “I'm going to do all of the things.” I think women, if you can, if you have the means to do that, I think you should take care of yourself in a way that is– I wish I could take care of myself when I wasn't pregnant at the level I took care of myself during this last and final pregnancy. I took the Needed prenatal vitamins pretty religiously. I hired an incredible doula, Lia Berquist at Your Natural Birth who teaches The Bradley Method and is also just such an advocate for VBACs. She actually is a VBAC-certified doula with The VBAC Link. Meagan: Yay. Kara: Yeah. Then I took her course. I read Ina May's books even though my heart was not dead-set on having a natural delivery which, I think if I had a fourth, I would love to go for that but for me, just getting past the C-sections and being able to have a VBAC was really what I wanted. Like I said, I took your course. I listened to a couple of my friends. My friend, Olga, had a VBAC and she recommended her doctor who I already mentioned, Dr. Barry Brock, who is VBAC supportive, and also her chiropractor, Dr. Berlin who also has a great podcast, The Informed Pregnancy Podcast. It's great and he is also a great resource and a great person.I had all of these people around me. I assembled an all-star team. Meagan: 100%. Holy cow. Kara: I went deep. I read a lot. I took it seriously. I got my head in the game. I did not let fear creep in and I really tried to focus on what I could achieve. I think that you will notice if you are someone who has had two C-sections and you tell people confidently when you are pregnant that you want to have a VBAC, you will get a really, really mixed response even today in 2024. You will get people asking you, “Can you even do that? Is that possible? I thought you couldn't do that.” It's not your job to educate them and enlighten them on what you can or cannot do unless you feel like it. Sometimes I was in the mood to tell them, “Yes!” and tell them all of the things I learned, and other times, I was like, “Yes, you can and I will,” and just left it at that and moved the conversation along. But yes. It is important to just not let other people's fears creep in. Meagan: Absolutely. Kara: I think if you are pregnant in general, people tend to want to tell you their horror stories. Meagan: Yes. Why? I don't understand. I don't understand why when you are pregnant, it's like, “Well, let me tell you how horrible my birth was.” I'm like, “Ahh. Don't share those things.” Kara: I would actually stop people and be like, “I'm sorry you had that experience. I personally don't want to hear it.” Meagan: Good for you. Kara: I know that is rude but I had to protect my own space and my own mental sanity. I needed to really do that. Meagan: Protect that. Yeah. Kara: Yeah. I mean, even when I would see people, there are things going on in the world. There are shootings and there are wars. People wanted to tell me that and I really tried to block all of that out, especially in the final months of getting ready to deliver. Meagan: Yeah. Good for you. Kara: Yeah. I was overdue and I went into labor naturally. Basically, contractions picked up. We wanted to wait as long as possible before going to the hospital– another mistake that I definitely made in my first pregnancy of getting to the hospital, getting checked in, and becoming a patient really just too early in the labor process. Meagan: In the labor process, yeah. Kara: What I didn't know and what I learned through your course, through the Bradley Method course, and through all of the different things that I did to prepare is that your body is not a business and labor is a natural thing that could take as long as it needs to take. Sometimes your contractions stop when the sun comes up. It's an incredible thing. Sometimes your contractions stop when you get afraid and you go into a space of needing to not– so I learned all of that because my contractions did slow down when the sun came up and my contractions did slow down when I finally did get to the hospital. 22:30 Beginning of laborKara: My husband and I went to a hotel actually that was near the hospital because if you have ever been to Los Angeles, the traffic is so scary. Yeah. It gave me peace of mind to be able to labor, be close to the hospital, be in a bathtub, and know that I was going to be okay and that I could also be as loud and visceral as I wanted without my other two children being frightened by my primal-ness so to speak. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Kara: Yeah. That was a really nice experience. Incredibly painful, but I basically got to the hospital and was able to labor unmedicated until about 7.5 centimeters. Meagan: Nice. Kara: At that point, I started throwing up. I think that's common. I mean, you would know. Meagan: It is. It's miserable. Kara: It's miserable. The other thing I didn't anticipate is when you throw up as much as I did, you lose that– we're talking bags and bags to the point where my doula, Lia, was like, “Wow. I didn't even know you could have that much in you.” We were like, “Whoa.” I felt so weak and so dehydrated and just not ready to run a marathon of pushing and all the things I knew were in front of me.At that point, I opted for the epidural. I'm glad I did because I needed to take a rest. I needed the contractions to stop a little bit, to slow down, to be lessened so I could just rest and get a little bit of my strength back before it was time to push. We did that. The contractions slowed down a little bit which was unfortunate because they were so strong for a while, but we did some Pitocin as well which I didn't want to do because I was trying to have a somewhat unmedicated delivery or birth experience. My wanting of that really was because I felt so helpless during my first delivery where I got an epidural early and then I just couldn't get up. I couldn't move and when her heart rate dropped during my first delivery, it just felt like I was at the mercy of the hospital staff and the doctors, and it just, yeah. I didn't want that. 25:08 Thoughts about the hospital systemKara: This was a great experience though. It did feel a little bit like I was on someone else's schedule. Another thing I learned is the hospital is a business. Meagan: It is. Yeah. It's not a bad place to give birth, right? But there is still a system. There are still policies. There are still things where you come in and you're not always just looked as an individual coming to give birth and that's it. Kara: No. Meagan: This is an individual coming in to have a baby and we need to have a baby. Kara: In order to bill. Meagan: Yeah, and move on so we can fill the room with the next person. Yeah. That is the thing. A lot of the time when an epidural comes into play, Pitocin is just in there right in the front saying, “That is the next step ‘naturally'” to them because it can slow labor down. It often does. Kara: Yeah. I really do like my doctor. Dr. Brock is amazing and he is so supportive of VBAC. It's not his fault. It's actually just how the system works. He had surgeries planned and he had a schedule to keep so in a way, it felt like my labor was taking too long and it was time to get things rolling. Yeah, that and he recommended pretty strongly breaking the bag so it was just another thing where I mentally, Meagan, was getting to a place where I was like, “Oh my god. I'm going to end up in another C-section.” Meagan: Same situation. Well, and a lot of triggers I'm sure. Even processed births, when things happen, even if you have processed them, they can trigger you very easily. Kara: That is such a good point because even though I feel I processed all of the birth trauma from my first situation, the second my husband and I walked back into that hospital, the last time we were there in labor was with our first one and we both almost started crying. It was so triggering. I did not expect it at all. Meagan: Yeah. You know, I as a doula– I had two C-sections at this one hospital, the same hospital. I as a doula, became a doula and I walked in. I wasn't even giving birth. I wasn't even giving birth and I was like, “Whoa.” I just felt that. When you are walking in, you are in a lot of discomfort. You are laboring hard, then you walk in and you feel that overwhelming space like you were saying earlier and sometimes they stop when our bodies are responding. Kara: Right. Meagan: That can happen. Kara: And that is what happened. I went to a place where my body didn't feel safe and my contractions, even though they were so strong back at the hotel, so strong to the point where I had the classic couldn't walk in, keeled over, grabbing– really just powerful. The second I got there, it was like I froze up and everything slowed down which is so incredible when you think about your body. If you don't feel safe–Meagan: It responds. It protects you. Kara: It protects you, right? It's like, “Oh, we are not ready to bring a life into this world if you are in a space of total fear.” Meagan: Yeah. Kara: Exactly. That was so crazy reflecting back on that. 28:49 Breaking watersMeagan: So you kind of went into that triggering moment of, “Hey, let's break your water.” We've already got epidural, Pitocin and now it's like, “Hey, we need to break your water.” Kara: I told him, “No.” Meagan: I was going to say, what did you say?Kara: I said, “No.” He said, “Well, it's what I would recommend.” It was a little bit jarring. It was a do you want to have a baby or not kind of a thing. I was like, “Okay. You leave. I'll think on it. I'll get back to you.” You know what I mean? I talked with my husband. We were both pretty afraid and ultimately, I decided to have the water broken. I think that if you are making the decision yourself and you are really taking time to come to that decision, it's not the wrong decision. It's an informed, empowered decision and you made the decision. Things could go right. Things could go wrong. The point is that you were not backed into a corner and then being forced to choose it. So I chose it because I knew I was getting to a place mentally where I was so tired and I don't want to say I was giving up on my VBAC, but kind of. Meagan: Yeah, starting to doubt it a little maybe. Kara: Starting to doubt it. 30 hours of labor with exhaustion, vomiting, and contractions were really starting to mess with my mental strength and getting me to a place where I was like, “Maybe I can't do this. Maybe this isn't going to happen for me.” Meagan: Yeah. Kara: That sucked. That's a scary place to be especially after I told you about all of my A student level prep. Meagan: I was going to say, a lot of work and mental prep and physical prep to go into that. It's hard to have that defeating feeling of, “I don't know if this is going to happen. I want it to but I don't know.” It's hard because we doubt ourselves. I don't know exactly why we doubt ourselves in labor. It's so common. I've attended hundreds and hundreds of births and the amount of doubt that happens is almost 100%. Kara: Right. Why do you think that is? Meagan: I don't know. I know it's getting intense and it's at the end. Okay, so you have an epidural because that's a very common stage at 7-8 centimeters to do it when they are unmedicated but here you are even with an epidural internally dealing with that. I don't know why we always doubt our bodies and our abilities, but for some reason, I'm not kidding you. It's almost 100% of births that I attend. At some point, there is doubt that crept in. Me too. I doubted it. I was 6 centimeters and I was like, “This isn't going to happen. This isn't going to happen.” Kara: I wonder if you are in so much pain at that point that you feel weak. Meagan: And exhausted. Kara: And exhausted. I didn't realize that your mental strength is almost if not more important than your physical strength during labor. Meagan: Oh yes. Kara: That part of it is just really the trick. Meagan: Well, the mental part can get us through the physical part. If we tell ourselves we are not doing well or we can't keep going, we physically stop feeling like we can. Kara: Right. Your body listens to everything your mind says and I carry that with me through everything now. It's the way you talk to yourself and the pep talks you are giving yourself. They are very important. 32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICUKara: Anyway, I then ended up going to the pushing stage and the epidural was starting to wear off so I could feel it a little bit. I pushed and pushed and pushed and yeah. A bunch of other things happened in that sort of period but I will spare you and ultimately, I asked for a mirror. I could see her head starting to come and that to me was so encouraging. I was just like, “You can do this.” I really gave it my all and was able to have my daughter. It was really magical and amazing and they put her on my chest. I was so excited that I did it. I was crying and all of that. I did end up hemorrhaging pretty badly and during that hemorrhaging, she had swallowed some of my blood on the way out. Meagan: Oh. Wait, so you were hemorrhaging internally as you were pushing? Kara: Correct. Meagan: Wow. Did they notice like, “Oh, we're having blood here?” Or bleeding? Kara: I feel like they should have but no one said that. Then all of a sudden, after I delivered the placenta, I had a minor tear internally. He was stitching that up and then all of a sudden, I just felt this huge gush of blood and of warmth around my legs. I was like, “What is that?” Then it became an emergency situation again where all of these people came running in to stop the bleeding. We had one person starting a second IV. The other person was jabbing a needle into your thigh. Someone was holding down your uterus to try and stop the bleeding. The baby at this point was taken and is being looked at because she is not breathing super well because she has my blood stuck in her lungs and stomach. As quickly as that beautiful moment happened, it went away. Meagan: Ugh. Which is so hard. Kara: Oh my gosh. It was so hard. It was so hard. Then the room was quiet essentially. The bleeding they were able to stop. My baby went to the NICU and my husband went with her and I was just there with my doula. I remember looking at her and being like, “Why did I ever want to do this? This was awful. This was terrible.” I just started crying and crying. Meagan: Yeah. Kara: By the way, I don't feel this way, but in that moment, I was like, “I just wish I would have done another C-section.” I felt this super high and then I felt this huge low. Any mom who has ever given birth, however you do it, when your baby gets put on your chest and you have your baby, you forget all of the pain and you are just like, “Yay!” Then when the baby is taken away from you, you are left with the most depressing feeling. Meagan: Yeah. I can't imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, the super high to super low. I mean, I think that's very normal for you to doubt your decision in that moment. Kara: Right, yeah. Anyway, so she went to the NICU and she was totally healthy and fine. They had to pump some blood out of her lungs and belly. I call her my vampire baby because she was sucking my blood. Meagan: Literally. Oh my gosh. Kara: I ended up doing two blood transfusions to build back my blood supply. My face was white. My lips were drained of all color. It was sort of like looking at a corpse, just absolutely iron-deficient. There was talk of sending me home and keeping my baby there which I just lobbied against. Meagan: To not happen. Kara: To not happen. Then finally I was able to leave and I achieved my VBAC so I took my celebratory VBAC photo in the parking lot of the hospital while I was leaving because I didn't have her in the hospital bed with me while I was there. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am so sorry that that happened. That's a lot. That is a lot. I don't know if you've heard our radical acceptance episode, but you should go listen to it not just to radically accept your situation. I think that in turn, it will be very powerful as you are healing through this. I can see right now you are still healing. You still are feeling this. I can see it in your face. Kara: Yeah. Right. Meagan: I can see it and I can hear it in your voice. It's okay to take time in healing that and also, be really, really happy while being really pissed off. That's okay. You can have those two feelings together. You can be so happy that you had your VBAC but you can be so ticked that it happened and appreciate the experience while also being angry about the experience. But yeah, through processing, I send you love and I wish you luck through your processing journey. I am so happy for you that you were able to get your VBAC. Kara: I am so, so happy. I really am. I know I just highlighted a lot of crazy things that happened, but ultimately, the way I feel about it when I think about it and when I talk about it is that I really just am so proud and so happy that I was able to have that experience, to trust my body again, and just to deliver my baby the way I wanted to do it. Meagan: Right. Kara: I really hate when people say, “All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby.”Meagan: I know, met too. It drives me nuts. Kara: It really bothers me because it's like, “Well, duh I want a healthy baby and I don't want to be injured. That is so baseline. I don't even know why we are saying it.” Meagan: I know. Kara: But it's also taking away the fact of how you're getting there and the journey. Meagan: Yeah. Yes. Kara: You know. I think it's just something we say to make ourselves feel better kind of a thing. Meagan: Yeah. I do too. I feel like it's the same thing with CPD. Providers are quick to just be like, “Oh, we've got a too-small pelvis. That's why there was a C-section,” just because it makes them feel better. I swear it makes a lot of providers better just to say “CPD” because it justifies the– I'm trying to think of the right word– reason why it happened. Kara: Yeah. It makes it so that it's clearly a cause and effect. It's a simple black-and-white thing on paper. It simplifies it for everyone. Meagan: It makes it okay. Kara: It makes it okay. But to me, that's like saying to someone, “You got in a really, really bad car accident and you guys both survived the car accident. Yay!” But all that matters is that you survived. But you're like, “Yeah, but what about the fact that every time I get in the car now, I can't drive or I'm terrified?” Or the effects that it had on you? I don't know why we are so quick with every other trauma, if you are in a shooting or something horrific that you would be given the space to talk about it, process it, and be given that grace but when it comes to birth trauma, it just feels sort of like–Meagan: Dismissive. Kara: Very dismissive. Oh, but look at the healthy baby you have now. Meagan: Aren't you happy? Kara: It's like, they can exist in the same space. You can be happy to have a baby and be healthy and alive while also still being traumatized, disappointed, and saddened of how it all went down. Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. Kara: Anywho, I'll get off my soapbox now. Meagan: Amen. Mic drop. I believe that wholeheartedly. Julie and I in the past have talked about that. I've talked about that. They can co-exist together and you don't have to dismiss your feelings. Please, Women of Strength, do not dismiss your feelings because the world says you should. These feelings exist. They are in you and–Kara: They're valid. Meagan: They're very valid. They're very valid. Even if to someone else, Jane down the street, it seems irrational or ridiculous because you have that healthy baby, no. She can think that way or someone else can think that way, but you are not wrong for feeling the feelings that you failed. Kara: Right. Yeah. Meagan: Well thank you so much for sharing with us today. Kara: Yeah. I loved chatting with you and am so thankful to this community and you and your podcast and the space that you have created for everyone to talk about it and benefit from it. So yeah. Meagan: Well, good. This space is for everyone here. Kara: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Thank you, thank you and we'll talk to you later. Kara: Okay, bye. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 2 – Empathy Interviews Guest: Dr. Kara Imm Mike Wallus: If there were a list of social skills we hope to foster in children, empathy is likely close to the top. Empathy matters. It helps us understand how others are feeling so we can respond appropriately, and it can help teachers understand the way their students are experiencing school. Today on a podcast, we talk with Dr. Kara Imm about a practice referred to as an empathy interview. We'll discuss the ways empathy interviews can help educators understand their students' lived experience with mathematics and make productive adaptations to instructional practice. Mike: Well, welcome to the podcast, Kara. We're excited to have you join us. Kara Imm: Thanks, Mike. Happy to be here. Mike: So, I have to confess that the language of an empathy interview was new to me when I started reading about this, and I'm wondering if you could just take a moment and unpack, what is an empathy interview, for folks who are new to the idea? Kara: Yeah, sure. I think I came to understand empathy interviews in my work with design thinking as a former teacher, classroom teacher, and now teacher-educator. I've always thought of myself as a designer. So, when I came to understand that there was this whole field around design thinking, I got very intrigued. And the central feature of design thinking is that designers, who are essentially thinking about creating new products, services, interactions, ways of being for someone else, have to start with empathy because we have to get out of our own minds and our own experiences and make sure we're not making assumptions about somebody else's lived experience. So, an empathy interview, as I know it now, is first and foremost a conversation. It's meant to be as natural a conversation as possible. When I do empathy interviews, I have a set of questions in mind, but I often abandon those questions and follow the child in front of me or the teacher, depending on who I'm interviewing. Kara: And the goal of an empathy interview is to elicit stories; really granular, important stories, the kind of stories that we tell ourselves that get reiterated and retold, and the kinds of stories that cumulatively make up our identities. So, I'm not trying to get a resumé, I'm not interested in the facts of the person, the biography of the person. I'm interested in the stories people tell about themselves. And in my context, the stories that kids tell themselves about their own learning and their own relationship to school, their classrooms, and to mathematics. I'm also trying to elicit emotions. So, designers are particularly listening for what they might call unmet needs, where as a designer we would then use the empathy interview to think about the unmet needs of this particular person and think about designing something uniquely and specifically for them—with the idea that if I designed something for them, it would probably have utility and purpose for other people who are experiencing that thing. So, what happened more recently is that I started to think, “Could empathy interviews change teachers' relationship to their students? Could it change leaders' relationships to the teachers?” And so far, we're learning that it's a different kind of conversation, and it's helping people move out of deficit thinking around children and really asking important questions about, what does it mean to be a kid in a math class? Mike: There's some language that you've used that really stands out for me. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about it. You said “the stories that we tell about ourselves”; or, maybe paraphrased, the stories that kids tell themselves. And then you had this other bit of language that I'd like to come back to: “the cumulative impact of those stories on our identity.” Can you unpack those terms of phrase you used and talk a little bit about them specifically, as you said, when it comes to children and how they think about their identity with relation to mathematics? Kara: Sure. I love that kind of phrase, “the story we tell ourselves.” That's been a pivotal phrase for me. I think stories kind of define and refine our existence. Stories capture this relationship between who we are and who we want to become. But when I'm thinking about stories in this way, I imagine as an interviewer that I'm trying to paint a portrait of a child, typically. And so, I'm trying to interact with this child in such a way that I can elicit these stories, painting a unique picture of this kid, not only as a learner but also as a human. What inevitably happens when you do these interviews is that I'm interested in their experience in math class. When I listen to kids, they have internalized, “I'm good at math, and here's why” or “I'm bad at math, and here's why. I just know it.” But when you dig a little bit deeper, the stories they tell are a little more nuanced, and they kind of live in the space of gray. And I'm interested in that space, not the space of testing and measurement that would land you in a particular identity as meant for math or not meant for math. Mike: I think what I was going to suggest is, why don't we listen to a few, because you shared a couple clips before we got ready for the interview, and I was fascinated by the approach that you had in chatting with these children and just how much information I could glean from even a minute or two of the interview slices that you shared. Why don't we start and get to know a few of these kiddos and see what we can learn together. Kara: Sounds great. Mike: We've got a clip that I'm going to invite you to set it up and give us as much context as you want to, and then we'll play the clip and then we can talk a little bit about it. I would love to start with our friend Leanna. Kara: Great. Leanna is a third-grader. She goes to an all-girls school. I've worked in Leanna's school over multiple years. I know her teacher well. I'm a part of that community. Leanna was kind of a new mathematician to me. Earlier in the day I had been in Leanna's classroom, and the interview starts with a moment that really struck me, which I won't say much more about. And I invited Leanna to join me after school so we could talk about this particular moment. And I really wanted to know how she made sense of what happened. So, I think we'll leave it at that and we'll listen to what happened. Mike: Alright, let's give it a listen. Leanna: Hi, I'm Leanna, and I'm 8 years old. Kara: Hi, Leanna. Today when I was in your class, something interesting happened where I think the kids said to me, and they said, “Do you know we have a math genius in our class?” Do you remember that moment? Leanna: Yeah. Kara: Tell me what happened in that moment. Leanna: Um, they said, “We have a math genius in our class.” And then they all started pointing at me. Kara: And what was that like for you? Leanna: It was … like, maybe, like, it was nice, but also it was kind of like, all the pressure was on me. Kara: Yeah, I was wondering about that. Why do you think the girls today—I mean, I'm a visitor, right?—why do you think they use the word “math genius”? And why did they choose you? What do you think they think of you? Leanna: A mathematician … Kara: Yeah. Leanna: … because I go to this thing every Wednesday. They ask me what I want to be when I grow up, and I always say a mathematician. So, they think that I am a math genius. Kara: Gotcha. Do you think all the girls in your class know that you want to be a mathematician when you grow up? But do they mean something else? They didn't say, “We have a mathematician in our class.” They said, “We have a math genius.” Leanna: Maybe. Kara: Are you a math genius? Do think, what does that even mean? Leanna: Like, I'm really good at math. Kara: Yeah. Do you think that's a true statement? Leanna: Yeah, a little bit. Kara: A little bit? Do you love math? Leanna: Yeah. Kara: Yeah. Have you always loved math? Leanna: Yeah. Kara: And so, it might be true that, like, is a math genius the same as a mathematician? Leanna: No. Kara: OK. Can you say how they're different? Leanna: Like, a mathematician is, like … Like, when you're a math genius, you don't always want to be a mathematician when you grow up. A math genius is when you just are really good at math, but, like, a mathematician is when you really, like, want to be when you grow up. Kara: Yeah. Mike: That was fascinating to listen to. So, my first inclination is to say, as you were making meaning of what Leanna was sharing, what were some of the things that were going on for you? Kara: Yeah, I was thinking about how math has this kind of unearned status, this measure of success in our culture that in this interview, Leanna is kind of pointing to. I was thinking about the mixed emotions she has being positioned as a math genius. It called into mind the model minority myth in which folks of Asian descent and Asian Americans are often positioned as stereotypically being good at math. And people say, “Well, this is such a lovely and respectful stereotype, who cares if it's not true?” But she later in the interview talks about the pressure of living up to this notion of math genius and what means. I think about her status in the classroom and how she has the agency to both take up this idea of math genius, and does she have the agency to also nuance it or reject it? And how that might play out in her classroom? So yeah, those are all the things that kind of come to mind as I listen to her. Mike: I think you're hitting on some of the themes that jumped out for me; this sense that kids who are participating in particular activities have been positioned, either by their participation or by their kids' perceptions of what participation means. And I thought the most interesting part was when she said, “Well, it's nice”—but there was a long pause there. And then she talked about this sense of pressure. What it's making me think about as a practitioner is that there are perhaps ways that as a teacher, if I'm aware of that, that might change something small, some things big about the way that I choose to engage with Leanna in the classroom; that I choose to help her navigate that space that she finds herself in. There's a lot for me there as a practitioner in that small clip that helps me really see her, understand her, and think about ways that I can support her. Kara: Yeah. And, like, from a design perspective, I huddled with her teacher later in the day, and we talked about this interview, and we thought about what would it mean to design or redesign a space where Leanna could feel really proud of who she was as a mathematician, but she didn't feel the kind of pressure that this math genius moniker is affording her. And so, ultimately, I want these interviews to be conducted by teachers so that, as you said, practitioners might show up differently for kids or think about what we might need to think more deeply about or design for kids like her. She's certainly not the only one. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of what's hitting me in the face is that the term “empathy interview” really is taking on new meaning, even listening to this first one. Because feeling the feelings that she's sharing with us, feeling what it would be like to be in those shoes, I've had kiddos in my class who have been identified or whose folks have chosen to have them participate in programming. And I have to confess that I don't know that I thought as much about what that positioning meant to them or what it meant about how kids would perceive them. I was just struck by how, in so many subtle ways doing an interview like this, might really shift the way that I showed up for a child. Kara: Yeah, I think so. Mike: Well, let's listen to another one. Kara: OK. Maybe Matthew, should we meet Matthew? Mike: I think we should meet Matthew. Kara: Yeah. Mike: Do you want to set up Matthew and give us a sense of what we might need to know about the context? Kara: Absolutely. Matthew is a fifth-grader who describes, in my conversation with him, several years of what he calls “not good” years in math. And he doesn't enjoy mathematics. He doesn't think he's good at it. He has internalized, he's really blamed himself and taken most of the responsibility for those “bad“ years of learning. When I meet him, he's a fifth-grader, and he has written a mathography at the invitation of his classroom teacher. This is a practice that's part of this school. And in his mathography as a fifth-grader, he uses the word “evolving,” and he tells the story of how he's evolving as a mathematician. That alone is pretty profound and beautiful that he has the kind of insight to describe this kind of journey with mathematics. And he really just describes a fourth-grade teacher who fundamentally changed his relationship to mathematics, his sense of himself, and how he thinks about learning. Mike: Let's give it a listen. Kara: Maybe we'll end, Matthew, with: If people were thinking about you as—and maybe there's other Matthews in their class, right—what kinds of things would've helped you back in kindergarten, first and second grade to just feel like math was for you? It took you until fourth grade, right … Matthew: Yeah. Kara: … until you really had any positive emotions about math? I'm wondering what could we have done for younger Matthew? Matthew: Probably, I think I should have paid a lot more attention. Kara: But what if it wasn't about you? What if it's the room and the materials and the teacher and the class? Matthew: I think it was mostly just me, except for some years it was really, really confusing. Kara: OK. Matthew: And when … you didn't really want in third grade or second grade, you didn't want to be the kid that's always, like, “Hey, can you help me with this?” or something. So that would be embarrassing for some people. Kara: OK. You just made air quotes right, when you did embarrassing? Matthew: Yeah. Kara: Was it embarrassing to ask for help? Matthew: It wasn't embarrassing to ask for help, and now I know that. But I would always not ask for help, and I think that's a big reason why I wasn't that good at math. Kara: Got it. So, you knew in some of these math lessons that it was not making sense? Matthew: It made no sense. Kara: It made no sense. Matthew: And then I was, like, so I was in my head, “I think I should ask, but I also don't want to embarrass myself.” Kara: Hmm. Matthew: But also, it's really not that embarrassing. Kara: OK, but you didn't know that at the time. At the time it was like, “Ooh, we don't ask for help.” Matthew: Yeah. Kara: OK. And did that include asking another kid for help? You didn't ask anybody for help? Matthew: Um, only one of my friends that I knew for a really long time … Kara: Hmm. Matthew: He helped me. So, I kind of got past the first stage, but then if he was absent on those days or something, then I'd kind of just be sitting at my desk with a blank sheet. Kara: Wow, so it sounds like you didn't even know how to get started some days. Matthew: Yeah, some days I was kind of just, like, “I'm not even going to try.” Kara: “I'm not” … OK. Matthew: But now I'm, like, “It's not that big of a deal if I get an answer wrong.” Kara: Yeah, that's true. Right? Matthew: “I have a blank sheet. That is a big deal. That's a problem.” Kara: So having a blank sheet, nothing written down, that is a bigger problem for you than, like, “Oh, whoops, I got the answer wrong. No big deal.” Matthew: I'd rather just get the answer wrong because handing in a blank sheet would be, that would probably be more embarrassing. Mike: Oh, my goodness. There is a lot in a little bit of space of time. Kara: Yeah. These interviews, Mike, are so rich, and I offer them to this space and to teachers with such care and with such a deep sense of responsibility 'cause I feel like these stories are so personal. So, I'm really mindful of, can I use this story in the space of Matthew for a greater purpose? Here, I feel like Matthew is speaking to all the kind of socio-mathematical norms in classrooms. And I didn't know Matthew until this year, but I would guess that a kid like Matthew, who is so quiet and so polite and so respectful, might've flown under the radar for many years. He wasn't asking for help, but he was also not making trouble. It makes me wonder, “How would we redesign a class so that he could know earlier on that asking for help—and that this notion that in this class, mathematics—is meant to make sense, and when it doesn't make sense, we owe it to ourselves and each other to help it make sense?” I think it's an invitation to all of us to think about, “What does it mean to ask for help?” And how he wants deep down mathematics to make sense. And I agree with him, that should be just a norm for all of us. Mike: I go back to the language that you used at the beginning, particularly listening to Matthew talk, “the stories that we tell ourselves.” The story that he had told himself about what it meant to ask for help or what that meant about him as a person or as a mathematician. Kara: Yeah. I mean, I am trained as a kind of qualitative researcher. So as part of my dissertation work, I did all kinds of gathering data through interviews and then analyzing them. And one of the ways that is important to me is thinking about kind of narrative analysis. So, when Matthew tells us the things that were in his head, he tells you the voice that his head is saying back to him. Kids will do that. Similarly, later in the interview I said, “What would you say to those kids, those kids who might find it?” And what I was interested in is getting him to articulate in his own voice what he might say to those children. So, when I think about stories, I think about when do we speak in a first person? When do we describe the voices that are in our heads? When do we quote our teachers and our mothers and our cousins? And how that's a powerful form of storytelling, those voices. Mike: Well, I want to listen to one more, and I'm particularly excited about this one. This is Nia. I want to listen to Nia and have you set her up. And then I think what I want to do after this is talk about impact and how these empathy interviews have the potential to shift practice for educators or even school for that matter. So, let's talk about Nia and then let's talk about that. Kara: You got it. Nia is in this really giant classroom of almost 40 kids, fifth-graders, and it's co-taught. It's purposely designed as this really collaborative space, and she uses the word “collaboration,” but she also describes how that's a really noisy environment. On occasion, there's a teacher who she describes pulling her into a quieter space so that she can concentrate. And so, I think that's an important backstory for her just in terms of her as a learner. I ask her a lot of questions about how she thinks about herself as a mathematician, and I think that's the clip we're going to listen to. Mike: Alright, let's listen in. Nia: No, I haven't heard it, but … Kara: OK. I wonder what people mean by that, “I'm not a math person.” Nia: I'm guessing, “I don't do math for fun.” Kara: “I don't do math for fun.” Do you do math for fun? Nia: Yes. Kara: You do? Like, what's your for-fun math? Nia: Me and my grandma, when we were in the car, we were writing in the car. We had this pink notebook, and we get pen or a pencil, and she writes down equations for me in the backseat, and I do them and she times me, and we see how many questions I could get right in, like, 50 seconds. Kara: Oh, my gosh. What's an example of a question your grandma would give you? Nia: Like, they were just practice questions, like, three times five, five times eight. Well, I don't really do fives because I already know them. Mike: So, we only played a real tiny snippet of Nia. But I think one of the things that's really sticking out is just how dense these interviews are with information about how kids think or the stories that they've told themselves. What strikes you about what we heard or what struck you as you were having this conversation with Nia at that particular point in time? Kara: For me, these interviews are about both storytelling and about identity building. And there's that dangerous thinking about two types of people, math people and non-math people. I encounter adults and children who have heard of that phrase. And so, I sometimes offer it in the interview to find out what sense do kids make of that? Kids have told me, “That doesn't make sense.” And other kids have said, “No, no, my mom says that. My mom says she's not a math person.” So, she, I'm playing into it to see what she says. And I love her interpretation that a math person is someone who does math for fun. And truthfully, Mike, I don't know a lot of kids who describe doing math for fun. And so, what I loved about that she, A: She a described a math person's probably a person who, gosh, enjoys it, gets some joy or pleasure from doing mathematics. Kara: But then the granularity of the story she offers, which is the specific pink notebook that she and her grandmother are passing back and forth in the backseat of the car, tell you about mathematics as a thing that she shares a way of relating to her grandmother. It's been ritualized, and really all they're doing if you listen to it is, her grandmother's kind of quizzing her on multiplication facts. But it's such a different relationship to multiplication facts because she's in relationship to her grandmother. They have this beautiful ongoing ritual. And quite honestly, she's using it as an example to tell us that's the fun part for her. So, she just reminds us that mathematics is this human endeavor, and for her, this one ritual is a way in which she relates and connects to her grandmother, which is pretty cool. Mike: So, I want to shift a little bit and talk about a couple of different things: the types of questions that you ask, some of the norms that you have in mind when you're going through the process, and then what struck me about listening to these is you're not trying to convince the kids who you're interviewing of anything about their current thinking or their feelings or trying to shift their perspective on their experience. And I'm just wondering if you can think about how you would describe the role you're playing when you're conducting the interview. 'Cause it seems that that's pretty important. Kara: Yeah. I think the role I'm playing is a deep listener. And I'm trying to create space. And I'm trying to make a very, very, very safe environment for kids to feel like it's OK to tell me a variety of stories about who they are. That's my role. I am not their classroom teacher in these interviews. And so, these interviews probably look and sound differently when the relationship between the interviewer and the interviewee is about teachers and students and/or has a different kind of power differential. I get to be this frequent visitor to their classroom, and so I just get to listen deeply. The tone that I want to convey, the tone that I want teachers to take up is just this fascination with who they are and a deep curiosity about their experience. And I'm positioned in these interviews as not knowing a lot about these children. Kara: And so, I'm actually beautifully positioned to do what I want teachers to do, which is imagine you didn't know so much. Imagine you didn't have the child's cumulative file. Imagine you didn't know what they were like last year. Imagine you didn't know all that, and you had to ask. And so, when I enter these interviews, I just imagine, “I don't know.” And when I'm not sure, I ask another smaller question. So I'll say, “Can you say more about that?” or “I'm not sure if you and I share the same meaning.” The kinds of questions I ask kids—and I think because I've been doing this work for a while, I have a couple questions that I start with and after that I trust myself to follow the lead of the children in front of me—I often say to kids, “Thank you for sitting down and having a conversation with me today. I'm interested in hearing kids' stories about math and their math journey, and somebody in your life told me you have a particularly interesting story.” And then I'll say to kids sometimes, “Where do you want to start in the story?” And I'll try to give kids agency to say, “Oh, well, we have to go back to kindergarten” or “I guess we should start now in high school” or kids will direct me where they think are the salient moments in their own mathematical journey. Mike: And when they're sharing that story, what are the types of questions that you might ask along the way to try to get to clarity or to understanding? Kara: Great question. I'm trying to elicit deep emotion. I'm trying to have kids explain why they're telling me particular stories, like, what was significant about that. Kids are interesting. Some kids in these interviews just talk a lot. And other kids, I've had to really pepper them with questions and that has felt a little kind of invasive, like, this isn't actually the kind of natural conversation that I was hoping for. Sometimes I'll ask, “What is it like for you or how do you think about a particular thing?” I ask about things like math community, I ask about math partners. I ask about, “How do you know you're good at math and do you trust those ways of knowing?” I kind of create spaces where we could have alternative narratives. Although you're absolutely right, that I'm not trying to lead children to a particular point of view. I'm kind of interested in how they make sense. Mike: One of the things that, you used a line earlier where you said something about humanizing mathematics, and I think what's striking me is that statement you made: “What if you didn't have their cumulative report card?” You didn't have the data that tells one story, but not necessarily their story. And that really is hitting me, and I'm even feeling a little bit autobiographical. I was a kid who was a lot like Matthew, who, at a certain point, I just stopped raising my hand because I thought it meant something about me, and I didn't want people to see that. And I'm just struck by the impact of one, having someone ask you about that story as the learner, but also how much an educator could take from that and bring to the relationship they had with that child while they were working on mathematics together. Kara: You said a lot there, and you actually connect to how I think about empathy interviews in my practice now. I got to work with Rochelle Gutiérrez this summer, and that's where I learned deeply about her framework, rehumanizing mathematics. When I do these empathy interviews, I'm living in this part of her framework that's about the body and emotions. Sometimes kids in the empathy interview, their body will communicate one thing and their language will communicate something else. And so, that's an interesting moment for me to notice how body and motions even are associated with the doing of mathematics. And the other place where empathy interviews live for me is in the work of “Street Data,” Jamila Dugan and Shane Safir's book, that really call into question this idea that what is measurable and what is quantifiable is really all that matters, and they invite us to flip the data dashboard. Kara: In mathematics, this is so important 'cause we have all these standardized tests that tell children about who they are mathematically and who they're about to become. And they're so limiting, and they don't tell the full story. So, when they talk about “Street Data,” they actually write about empathy interviews as a way in which to be humanizing. Data can be liberatory, data can be healing. I feel that when I'm doing these interviews, I have this very tangible example of what they mean because it is often the case that at the end of the interview—and I think you might've had this experience just listening to the interview—there's something really beautiful about having a person be that interested in your story and how that might be restorative and might make you feel like, “There's still possibility for me. This isn't the last story.” Mike: Absolutely. I think you named it for me, which is, the act of telling the story to a person, particularly someone who, like a teacher, might be able to support me being seen in that moment, actually might restore my capacity to feel like, “I could do this” or “My fate as a mathematician is not sealed.” Or I think what I'm taking away from this is, empathy interviews are powerful tools for educators in the sense that we can understand our students at a much deeper level, but it's not just that. It's the experience of being seen through an empathy interview that can also have a profound impact on a child. Kara: Yes, absolutely. I'm part of a collaboration out of University of California where we have thought about the intersection of disability and mathematics, and really thinking about how using the tools of design thinking, particularly the empathy interview can be really transformative. And what the teachers in our studies have told us is that just doing these empathy interviews—and we're not talking about interviewing all the kids that you teach. We're talking about interviewing a select group of kids with real intention about, “Who's a kid who has been marginalized?” And/or “Who's a kid who I don't really know that much about and/or I don't really have a relationship with?” Or “Who's a kid who I suspect doesn't feel seen by me or doesn't feel, like, a deep sense of belonging in our work together?” Teachers report that just doing a few of these interviews starts to change their relationship to those kids. Kara: Not a huge surprise. It helped them to name some of the assumptions they made about kids, and it helped them to be in a space of not knowing around kids. I think the other thing it does for teachers that we know is that they describe to do an empathy interview well requires a lot of restraint, restraint in a couple of ways. One, I'm not fixing, I'm not offering advice. I'm also not getting feedback on my teaching. And I also think it's hard for teachers not to insert themselves into the interview with our own narratives. I really try to make sure I'm listening deeply and I'm painting a portrait of this kid, and I'm empathetic in the sense I care deeply and I'm deeply listening, which I think is a sign of respect, but the kids don't need to know about my experience in the interview. That's not the purpose. Mike: We could keep going for quite a long time. I'm going to make a guess that this podcast is going to have a pretty strong on a lot of folks who are out in the field listening. Kara: Hmm. Mike: If someone was interested in learning more about empathy interviews and wanted to explore or understand more about them, do you have any particular recommendations for where someone might go to continue learning? Kara: Yes, and I wish I had more, but I will take that as an invitation that maybe I need to do a little bit more writing about this work. I think the “Street Data” is an interesting place where the co-authors do reference empathy interviews, and I do think that they have a few videos online that you could see. I think Jamila Dugan has an empathy interview that you could watch and study. People can write me and/or follow me. I'm working on an article right now. My colleagues in California and I have a blog called “Designing4Inclusion,” “4” being the number four, and we've started to document the work of empathy and how it shows up in teachers' practice there. Mike: Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us, Kara. It has really been a pleasure talking with you. Kara: Thank you, Mike. I was really happy to be invited. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

In this episode of the Second 53 Years, Kara Oh talks about her reinvention!  Despite having a varied business background, Kara found herself drawn towards her passion, through a series of circumstances.  Her divorce was not the end of her career.  She used it as the catalyst for the best phase of her life!

When you get past the 'I'm So In Love' flutters, and you get cozy in your relationship, what kind of love do you settle into? In this episode Kara will share her thoughts on the difference between what most people in long-term relationships call love, and what she describes as 'Real Love.' Tune in and see where your kind of love fits.

When you get past the 'I'm So In Love' flutters, and you get cozy in your relationship, what kind of love do you settle into? In this episode Kara will share her thoughts on the difference between what most people in long-term relationships call love, and what she describes as 'Real Love.' Tune in and see where your kind of love fits.

Do you enjoy those conversations with your partner where you're just sharing how your day went? Or do you get bored, thinking, "Blah, blah, blah?" This is a recipe for ending your relationship. If not now, soon. In today's episode, Kara will share some tips on how a new way of listening can help you inspire more love.

Do you enjoy those conversations with your partner where you're just sharing how your day went? Or do you get bored, thinking, "Blah, blah, blah?" This is a recipe for ending your relationship. If not now, soon. In today's episode, Kara will share some tips on how a new way of listening can help you inspire more love.

Today I want to share one of my favorite facets from the Feminine Grace Online Workshop. I love this one because when you embrace it and make it a part of your being, you begin to feel delicious. And isn't that what being a woman is all about? Join me and discover the secret to adding pleasure to being a truly delicious, delightful woman.

Today I want to share one of my favorite facets from the Feminine Grace Online Workshop. I love this one because when you embrace it and make it a part of your being, you begin to feel delicious. And isn't that what being a woman is all about? Join me and discover the secret to adding pleasure to being a truly delicious, delightful woman.

Kara Oh, "The Heart Whisperer" is a best-selling author of Men Made Easy, and has written several other titles including Affair Repair, From Flirting To Forever, Marriage Makeover Manuel, and How To Win The Woman You Want. She is also a co-author of 101 Great Ways To Improve Your Life with fellow authors, John Gray, Jack Canfield, Richard Carlson, Bob Proctor and Alan Cohan. She's a Dating and Relationship Coach, Seminar Leader, Inspirational Speaker, radio and TV personality, mother of two fantastic grown children, and grandmother of a magical 14 year old grandson. Kara has been interviewed on hundreds of radio and TV shows across the country in cities like New York, Atlanta, Las Vegas, Chicago, and Philadelphia, and given seminars in bookstores in every major (and a few not so major) city. She has been featured in magazines like Cosmopolitan and Women's World. She is an enlightening and entertaining public speaker and has traveled to all the major US cities sharing her insights about what makes men tick and how to create amazing relationships. Kara will share her processes for creating, publishing and selling her books via the internet. We appreciate you tuning in to this episode of Your Partner In Success Radio with Host Denise Griffitts. If you enjoyed what you heard, please consider subscribing, rating, and leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us reach more listeners and create even better content!Stay ConnectedWebsite: Your Partner In Success RadioEmail: mail@yourofficeontheweb.com

Kara Oh, will share the secrets to finding love

Kara Oh, will share the secrets to finding love