Podcast appearances and mentions of ina may

*Content warning: birth trauma, medical trauma, medical neglect, mature and stressful themes. *Free + Confidential Resources + Safety Tips: somethingwaswrong.com/resources Moms Advocating For MomsS23 survivors Markeda, Kristen and Amanda have created a nonprofit, Moms Advocating for Moms, in hopes to create a future where maternal well-being is prioritized, disparities are addressed, and every mother has the resources and support she needs to thrive: https://www.momsadvocatingformoms.org/take-actionhttps://linktr.ee/momsadvocatingformoms Please sign the survivors petitions below to improve midwifery education and regulation in Texashttps://www.change.org/p/improve-midwifery-education-and-regulation-in-texas?recruiter=1336781649&recruited_by_id=74bf3b50-fd98-11ee-9e3f-a55a14340b5a&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink Malik's Law https://capitol.texas.gov/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=89R&Bill=HB4553 M.A.M.A. has helped file a Texas bill called Malik's Law, which is intended to implement requirements for midwives in Texas to report birth outcomes in hopes of improving transparency and data collection in the midwifery field in partnership with Senator Claudia Ordaz. *Sources:ACTH Treatment of Infantile Spasmshttps://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3092432/ American College of Nurse Midwiveshttps://midwife.org/ American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG)https://www.acog.org/ Hypothermia Therapy (Neonatal Cooling)https://hiehelpcenter.org/treatment/hypothermia-therapy/#:~:text=Hypothermiatherapyinvolvescoolingthe,degreesFahrenheit Hypoxic-Ischemic Encephalopathy (HIE)https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/hypoxic-ischemic-encephalopathy-hie Ina May's Guide to Childbirthhttps://birthworks.org/product/ina-mays-guide-to-childbirth/March of Dimeshttps://www.marchofdimes.org/peristats/about-us Meconium Aspiration Syndromehttps://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/meconium-aspiration-syndrome National Midwifery Institutehttps://www.nationalmidwiferyinstitute.com/midwifery NICU Levelshttps://www.childrenscolorado.org/doctors-and-departments/departments/neonatal-intensive-care-unit/nicu-family-resources/nicu-levels/#:~:text=WhatisaLevelIV,theirgestationalageatbirth. North American Registry of Midwives (NARM)https://narm.org/ Office for Civil Rightshttps://www.hhs.gov/ocr/index.htmlPhenobarbitalhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532277/#:~:text=Phenobarbitalsapotentcytochrome,possibleinteractionbetweenthemedications. State investigating Dallas birth center and midwives, following multiple complaints from patientshttps://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/investigates/state-investigating-dallas-birth-center-midwives-following-multiple-complaints-from-patients/287-ea77eb18-c637-44d4-aaa2-fe8fd7a2fcef Texas Administrative Code Rule §115.117https://texas-sos.appianportalsgov.com/rules-and-meetings?interface=LANDING_PAGE Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR)https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ Applying for a new License with TDLR:https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/midwives/apply.htmTexas Health and Human Services Birthing Centershttps://www.hhs.texas.gov/providers/health-care-facilities-regulation/birthing-centersTotal body cooling: Saving babies' lives after emergency deliveryhttps://utswmed.org/medblog/total-body-cooling-saving-babies-lives-after-emergency-delivery/ What is ACTH Therapy (Corticotropin/ACTHAR Gel) for Infantile Spasms?https://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/Pharmacy/ACTHInjections.pdf When Do Babies Start Crawling?https://www.pampers.com/en-us/baby/development/article/when-do-babies-crawl Zucker School of Medicine, Amos Grunebaum, MDhttps://faculty.medicine.hofstra.edu/13732-amos-grunebaum/publications *SWW S23 Theme Song & Artwork: Thank you so much to Emily Wolfe for covering Glad Rag's original song, U Think U for us this season!Hear more from Emily Wolfe:On SpotifyOn Apple Musichttps://www.emilywolfemusic.com/instagram.com/emilywolfemusicGlad Rags: https://www.gladragsmusic.com/ The S23 cover art is by the Amazing Sara StewartFollow Something Was Wrong:Website: somethingwaswrong.com IG: instagram.com/somethingwaswrongpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@somethingwaswrongpodcast Follow Tiffany Reese:Website: tiffanyreese.me IG: instagram.com/lookiebooSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Ali Yarrow thought her childbirth experience would be hers to guide. Instead, she found it was guided by the American obstetrics system — a model that was designed by men. Ali documented what she uncovered in her eye-opening book, Birth Control, and joins us to share what she learned about maternal care in the U.S., how we got here, and how to advocate for ourselves in a system stacked against both patients and providers. *When you use our affilate links to purchase books, we earn a commission, which helps support our work! … Recommendations from the archive • #27 Rewriting Your Birth Story • #28 The Missing Chapter to Ina May's Guide • #218 Ina May's Guide, Completely Revised and Updated … Doula Resources Doulas often lead to better birth outcomes. Find one in your area through DONA International. Doula Training If you're a birth partner, you can train to be a doula yourself! • DONA birth doula certification training • CAPPA birth doula certification training • MaternityWise Institute birth doula certification training Low-Cost/No-Cost Doula Services Many cities have low/no-cost doula programs for low-income individuals. Contact local birthing centers, hospitals, and state health departments for more info. Below are some examples. • NYC's Citywide Doula Initiative • HealthConnect One community based doula services • Community Doula Network (DC Area) • Happy Mama Healthy Baby Alliance (LA Area) … Sponsors (using our links supports the show!) • Blissy: 60 nights risk-free plus 30% off at blissy.com/LONGSHORTPOD with code LONGSHORTPOD • Alloy: $20 off your first order at myalloy.com/LONGSHORT with code LONGSHORT … Join LST+ for community and access to You Know What, another show in the Longest Shortest universe! Follow us on Instagram Website: longestshortesttime.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Johanna is a girl mama joining us today from Canada. She had an unplanned C-section with her first, an HBAC with her second, and was pregnant with her third at the time of recording! Johanna reflects on her experiences with both supportive and unsupportive care during her pregnancies. Meagan and Johanna dive into your options surrounding PROM,  the significance of intuition in decision-making, the impact of provider choices on birth outcomes, and the nuances of VBAC postpartum recovery.The VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth VBACEverything You Need for Your HBACSupportive Providers10 Signs to Switch Your ProviderWhat to Do When Your Water BreaksLabor GuideCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have our friend Johanna with us from Canada today, and she's going to be sharing her HBAC story. So for those who may be , new to the VBAC world, or just all of the acronyms that the VBAC world has, HBAC is pronounced home birth after Cesarean. So if you are one of those who really wants to look into all of your options for birthing locations, which I encourage everyone to do, definitely listen up here. We're going to be talking about a lot of really great things including picking a provider and PROM knowing that you maybe had a provider that wasn't ideal the first time and more about HBAC. So we are going to be diving into a lot of really, really great, juicy topics. But in place our review today, Johanna and I are actually going to talk a little bit more about picking the right provider. So, Johanna, welcome to the show.Johanna: Thank you.Meagan: I am so excited for you to be with us today and so grateful that you are here to talk about this topic. Because like I was saying before we pressed record, I see daily in our community, every single day, and not even just our community, in other VBAC communities or this is weird, but people's statuses, like my friends and family's statuses on Facebook, where you type like, "Hey, I'm looking for this," or "I'm feeling very frustrated," or "I need prayers." People will seriously say, "I don't know what to do, you guys. Has anybody ever heard of VBAC?" on their own status? But especially in the VBAC groups, I see people and I just want to yell, "Hey, you over there. You're with the wrong provider" or, "Hey, you should move." That's a really hard thing because especially when I type that it can be like, oh my gosh, who is this broad telling me that I'm with the wrong provider and that I chose wrong? I'm not trying to say that. I'm not trying to say you chose wrong. Like, how dare you choose wrong? It's just like, hey, what you're telling us in this community is screaming, you're the wrong provider. So, Johanna, you , mentioned before we press record that you realized after your first birth that you were with the wrong provider. What made you realize that you were with the wrong provider? And were there signs during pregnancy that you recognized and maybe pushed away? Or was it really not something that you recognized until after? Because I know really, it can go both ways.Johanna: Yeah, I think that there were signs during the pregnancy. I mean, one of them, and I just didn't listen to my gut because you don't know what you don't know. I put too much blind faith that it was all gonna work out. But I never felt comfortable with her. I didn't have a good connection with her. I was asking a lot of questions about what I can be doing because my first birth, I really wanted to be a home birth. She basically just didn't give me very much information about what I can be doing. She sent me to your generic birth course through the hospital. Yeah. I didn't really feel like she was really invested in the outcome of my birth. I was just like another one of her patients. So I didn't feel great about that. And then when push came to shove with my birth and things weren't going great, she threw her hands up in the air and just took a step back and didn't really advocate for me or try and help me through things. So I was left with a pretty unpleasant taste in my mouth.Meagan: Yeah, I mean, exactly what you said just a minute ago. You didn't feel that she was invested in the outcome of your birth. And then it proved. It proved to be true when she just threw her arms up. So you had that experience, and you're not alone. There are so many of us out there. Me too, me included and a lot of people on The VBAC Link team included. We have all been in a similar situation where our providers, threw our hands up, weren't invested in our birth and our experience and had to go out there and seek that support that we deserved. So if there's anything we talk about on The VBAC Link, and I'm sure you've heard it, is find the right provider. I mean, seriously, you guys, I say it daily, every single day. If I'm not typing it, if I'm not voice memo-ing it, if I'm not saying it in my mind, it's find the right provider. Johanna, what would you give for tips for our listeners to find that right provider? And how did you find that right provider?Johanna: So I found my midwife that I used for my second birth and I'm actually using again for my third birth because I am 31 weeks pregnant today.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yay.Johanna: I found her actually because when I got pregnant for the second time, the first thing I did was get a doula.Meagan: Uh-huh.Johanna: I asked her for recommendations on a VBAC friendly midwife. She had recommended this midwife. So immediately I was like, yes, I would like to meet her. When I met her, instantly, I felt so much more at ease.So I would say going with your gut. If something doesn't feel right, even if it's the tiniest thing, just look for a new provider. Just find someone where it feels right.Meagan: Yeah. I can relate to that so much because that's how I was feeling. I was searching, I was searching, I was searching. I mean, it was insane. I interviewed a lot of providers, but that's what I was searching for is that immediate like, oh, I'm in the right place. You are my person. And it took me a long time. And that sucks. It sucks that it took so long. I know that in some areas they're really rural and it's almost impossible to find that feeling. But I agree. So just as a reminder for those looking, before we get into the story, I wanted to make sure that you know to ask open-ended questions. Do not say, "Do you support VBAC? Yes or no?" Do not say, "Do you support me to go to 40 weeks? Yes or no?"Let's ask open ended questions. "How do you feel if I approach my due date and I haven't had a baby yet? How do you feel about VBAC? What is your experience with VBAC? How do you support your VBAC clients to make sure patients get the birth that they want? How do you advocate for them?"Asking these big open ended questions and then like Johanna said, diving deep. What is your heart and your gut feeling and saying? If at any point you are questioning, which I think is when people come out on social media, that is when I think they comment and they're writing, "Hey, I'm, feeling defeated. Hey, this is what my provider said." It's because they're doubting. They're questioning. That's their intuition. If that even comes into play at all, it's time to switch. It is time to switch. And first-time parents, if you are out there listening, this applies to you too, right? We have to avoid these unnecessary Cesareans which are happening all over the world. We have to follow our intuition. So that's another thing we talk about until we're blue in the face-- intuition. So follow that intuition. Ask open ended questions. Really dive in deep because your provider really can make an impact.And really, really quickly, we're going to just barely skim the surface on PROM. PROM is premature rupture of membranes. Johanna and I have both experienced it. She's two for two. I'm three for three. Maybe you won't be three for three girl. I don't know. I'm hoping you're not. Johanna: Fingers crossed. Meagan: I'm hoping you won't. But if you are, we know that it's okay. Vaginal birth still happen. But talking about providers, if you have PROM, which means your water breaks before labor begins, and just to let you know, it can take hours, even days for your body to turn over into labor after your water breaks. But if you have PROM and you don't have a supportive provider, that is right there the beginning of a fight. It shouldn't have to be a fight, but that can impact things because they want to get things going. Some providers won't even induce labor or touch you or 12 hours later they're like, "Nope, you haven't had a baby. You have to have a C-section." So yeah. So really quick Johanna, do you have any tips for our listeners who might have had PROM or may have PROM?Johanna: Yeah, it's difficult because especially when I experienced it, I mean, I experienced it for both births and the second time I really felt anxious because I was like, oh no, I'm on a ticking time-clock again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Because that's how you were treated.Johanna: Yes. I was lucky that I have a super supportive provider. And she was like, "Baby's fine, you're fine, everything's fine. We're just going to wait it out."Yeah, I mean crucial to have the right provider that is going to give you that grace and give you that time and that space, but just know the facts. Just arm yourself with information that as long as the fluid is clear, as long as you have no signs of infection-- at least here they make you come in for non-stress tests like every, I don't know if it's 12 hours or 24 hours when your water has broken. As long as everything's looking okay, you can wait, I think, up to 72 hours.Meagan: I've actually even had a client wait five days. Johanna: Holy smokes. Meagan: Five days. Close monitoring you guys, really close monitoring. But it was nothing that said a baby needed to be born. So five days is maybe abnormal. This was a home birth transfer to hospital. Even with five days rupture of membranes, the hospital did not "make" her, as I'm putting quotes up, have a Cesarean or do anything different because she advocated for herself. But it really can. 72 hours. It really can happen. So okay, we are going to stop talking about this, you guys. We're going to have links in the show notes to dive deeper into questions for your provider. What about premature rupture of membranes and things like that. So we're going to have those in the show notes if you want to dive more into that. You can dive in. But we're going to take one quick break for the intro, and then turn the time over to Johanna. Okay girl, thank you so much for chatting with me about that. I really do think it's so important.Johanna: I think knowledge about everything is your best friend when you're planning for any birth, but especially a VBAC.Meagan: Right. I know. It does suck that VBAC has to be so much more intense in our prep and our research and all these things because we're just moms going in to have vaginal births. That's all we are. But, but unfortunately that's not how it's viewed. That's just not how it's viewed in most areas of the world. So yeah, all right. Let's talk about that first birth.Johanna: Okay. So I got pregnant with my first daughter Mila in the summer of 2020. So heavy, COVID times. So that was scary enough. Because of COVID and the shift in culture towards socialization and going into hospitals and stuff like that, me and my husband decided to look into home birth which was not really on my radar before, but the more that I looked into it, I was like, oh, this is super beautiful, and I love the idea of birthing my baby at home in the piece and quiet of our own space.Meagan: Yeah. And a lot safer than a lot of people think.Johanna: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. The more I looked into it, the more I was like, okay. This is a totally viable option for us. I had a pretty uneventful pregnancy. I was very lucky. I had very minimal symptoms. Everything went well. I didn't have anything scary happened during the pregnancy. I will say that I didn't take the best care of myself. I am usually a pretty active person and I totally just didn't do much exercise or working out. I think in the back of my mind, I was scared that something bad was going to happen if I overdid it. It was just a lot of first-time mom anxieties.Meagan: Totally get it.Johanna: Yep. I didn't eat the best. I didn't take the best care of myself. I didn't do a whole lot to prep for the birth other than your typical childbirthing classes, bringing baby home through the hospital, generic courses that I think a lot of first-time moms, that's what they do, right? I read a couple of books. I read the What to Expect books, and I think I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.Meagan: Great book.Johanna: Yep. But I had no idea what to expect. When it came to labor and birth, I really was going in blind. I will say, I just put my faith in that my provider was going to hold my hand through it. That was a mistake. So yeah, I mean, it was a pretty uneventful pregnancy. There wasn't a whole lot to say other than it was COVID and everything was scary and didn't really know what was going on. When I was 41-ish weeks, my water ended up breaking. It was the middle of the night, and I didn't really know what happened. It was just like a little squirt and went back to bed. And in the morning, it was like when you move a position and a little bit comes out and you move a position and a little bit. It was one of those. And then I lost my mucus plug. So I was like, oh, I better call my midwife. So I gave her a call, and she totally brushed me off. She was like, "No, I think it's probably just discharge. I wouldn't worry about it." So that was another red flag was her just totally brushing off my feelings and what I believed was going on. So I hung up the phone and I was like, well, I don't really know what to do now. I'm fairly certain that my water's broken. So I waited a couple of hours, and it continued to trickle out. I eventually called her again and she was like, "Okay, okay, you can come in. You can come in and I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it's just discharge." So I went in and sure enough, she was like, "Oh, your water did break and it's amniotic fluids. Look at that."Meagan: Interesting.Johanna: Yeah, I could have told you that. So I was like, "Well, what do we do now?" And she was like, "Well, we can wait up to 72 hours as long as everything's healthy. That's fine, so we'll keep monitoring things." She sent me home and told me to just relax. She said, "If labor doesn't pick up today, go to bed and in the morning, do a castor oil induction." I did that. When I woke up the next morning and nothing had happened, I did do the castor oil induction. I will say that I will never do that again because it was horrible. Sorry for the TMI, but it just gave me severe diarrhea, and then nothing happened, and I was super uncomfortable. So that wasn't fun. That wasn't fun. That didn't work.I went in for a non-stress test that afternoon. She decided to check me, and I had made zero progress. I was not dilated at all. I had zero effacement or anything like that, so no progress. I felt super discouraged. My water has been broken for however long at this point-- 36 hours, I think, probably. I've made no progress. The castor oil induction and failed. I had barely slept the night before, so I was tired and I was just stressed. I was like, when is this going to happen?Meagan: But at this point you weren't really thriving with contractions. Nothing was too intense to be telling you that there should be progress, right?Johanna: Literally not a single contraction or anything. Nothing was happening.Meagan: True PROM, and so your defeating feeling is super normal because in our minds we were told our water breaks, we should be having a baby. But if we have PROM, don't expect to be dilated. Right?Johanna: Yes.Meagan: I did too. I expected to be way dilated and I wasn't.Johanna: So I felt super defeated. And like I said, I wasn't sleeping. I barely got any sleep the night before because I was just anxious for birth to get going. I ended up crying in her office about how stressed I was to end up in a C-section because my sister had a long, pretty terrible labor that ended in a C-section. It was just not a great experience for her. I don't exactly remember what my midwife said, but I did not feel reassured leaving that appointment. But we did end up deciding that if I didn't go into labor that night, I was going to be induced the next morning because I was just not sleeping well. I was not able to rest and relax because I was just anxious. So I was like, okay. I guess my home birth plan is out the window, but at least there's a plan. I ended up going home. We had dinner, and I started getting contractions just after dinner which was exciting.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: But then they petered off after, like, I don't know, an hour or two. So we went to bed, had the hospital bags packed and everything ready to go for an induction the next morning. Labor started around 2:00 AM. It started on its own around 2:00 AM.Meagan: How many total hours is this until labor comes?Johanna: I think it was about 48 hours after my water broke that I had the rupture of membranes that my labor actually started. I will say, it was pretty intense right off the hob. I hear a lot of women say that their early labor is like, "Oh, I took my other kids for a walk. I baked a cake. I did this. I did that to distract myself." My labors are not like that. My labors are intense right out the gate. I tried to eat something for breakfast. A few hours after that, I woke my husband up. We tried to eat breakfast. I got in the bathtub to try and relieve some of the discomfort. I hung out in there for a while. We had rented a birth tub. My husband got that set up. I called my midwife. She came probably around 11:00 AM, so at that point, I'd probably been laboring for like, I don't know, eight or nine hours. I was not coping well. It was very intense and I was not coping well with the pain. She checked me, and I was a 3. I was like, dang it. In my mind, what I know now is that it's not a linear thing and that it's not going to take another 18 hours to go from a 3 to 9. But in my mind then I was like, oh no, I can't do this for however many more hours because I'm already not coping well and I'm only at a 3. So I told her I was totally deflated and I told her, "I want to go to the hospital and get an epidural." She was like, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, that's fine." So I think between the time that she checked me and I was at a 3 and the time that I got the epidural, it was about two hours. That car ride to the hospital, wow, was not fun. But yes. So, in that two hours that it took between her checking me and me getting the epidural, she checked me again right as soon as it kicked in and I was at a 9.Meagan: Whoa.Johanna: Yeah. Meagan: 0 to 100. Johanna: Yeah, when I say that car ride, it was ripping through me.Meagan: Yeah, you were in transition at that point.Johanna: Yeah. When we were in the hospital waiting for the anesthesiologist to come in and do the epidural, my midwife and husband are joking around trying to make me laugh. I'm like, "This is not where are at right now." I was not having it because, obviously, I was in transition, and it just was not where I was at. So yeah, she was like, "Okay, well you're at a 9 now, that's great. So rest for an hour and then we'll probably be pushing." The epidural was heavy. I felt nothing from my ribs down. So an hour went by and she's like, "Hey, you're complete. Start pushing." I felt nothing. I'm trying to push, and she's telling me that I'm doing a pretty good job considering I have an epidural, but baby was still high. And then all of a sudden, I think I'd pushed a couple of times and all of a sudden, all of these doctors and nurses and bunch of people just start run into the room and they're all speaking French because it's a French speaking hospital.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Johanna: So I have no idea what's going on. Nobody is telling me anything. They're all speaking a different language. And I was just like, "Can somebody please tell me in English what's going on?" They told me that she was having late decal every time that I was pushing.Meagan: Okay.Johanna: So between pushes she was fine, but every time I'd push, her heart rate would go down and then have trouble recovering. At no point did anybody recommend maybe trying a position change or anything like that. Like maybe her cord was being pinched in that position. If only I knew now or knew then what I know now.Meagan: Yeah, like hydration, movement, doing something, pushing in a different position.Johanna: Yeah, yeah no. So like I said, my midwife threw her hands up and stepped back and let the OB take over and didn't say anything to me after that. The OB basically let me push three times and then was like, "Nope, this is going to take too long. We need to have a C-section," and she called a C-section.Meagan: Wow. Do you remember how low your baby's heart rate was getting?Johanna: No, I have no idea.Meagan: Okay, interesting. I mean late deceleration are less ideal, right? We don't want them to happen late. We want that to be the recovery period.But yeah, there could have been some things done.Johanna: Yeah, and looking back, it's frustrating to know that maybe if one little thing had been changed, the outcome could have been totally different.Yeah, but you can't blame yourself for that either. It's hard to look back and be like, the what if's. But yes, you did whatever you did in the moment with the information you were given.Johanna: Exactly. So I went in for the C-section. It went fine. There were no complications, but being strapped down to a table in a really cold room and having the shakes and not feeling that, not being the person to get to hold your baby. I mean, everyone listening to this podcast pretty much knows what thats like and how it was demoralizing and traumatizing for sure. But it went fine. She was born healthy. I didn't have any complications. But yeah, the emotional trauma was real and not just for me, but for my husband too. We got discharged about 24 hours after the C-section and going home and seeing the birth tub still set up in our living room was a very emotional experience. We both ended up breaking down crying.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So I had to do a lot of emotional recovery from that birth as well as physical recovery because the physical recovery from C-section was also extremely rough. I remember every time I would have to get up out of bed, it felt like I was being ripped in half. It's rough, but I knew right from the moment she was born that I would be VBACing my next baby because we had always planned on having a few kids.Meagan: I want to point out to everyone, too, the importance of postpartum support and postpartum help and planning. We never know the outcomes of birth. I didn't know the outcomes. I didn't realize that it was going to take me 15 minutes to walk 10 stairs up to my bedroom. I didn't realize it was going to take me 15 minutes to walk down the stairs. I couldn't be holding anything. I didn't realize how exhausting it was going to be to get out of bed to go to the restroom let alone taking care of a newborn baby and also thriving as an individual. So it's really important to really try not to ignore the postpartum period. I think it's easy to do because we're so focused on the birth. Especially with VBAC, I think we're so hyper, hyper focused on that VBAC, that outcome, and that experience which I do not shame anyone for being. I just want to plug it in. Don't forget about your postpartum because whether it's physical or emotional.You came back to this space of seeing a plan that didn't unfold the way you wanted it to. That can be very emotional, very traumatic even in some ways. So yeah, having some resources for postpartum as well. I just want to plug that in.Johanna: Yeah, that's a really good point. I did no prep for postpartum for my first birth.Meagan: Me either.Johanna: It wasn't even something that like dawned on me to think about. When I was in postpartum, I was like, wow, this is really intense. Like the sleep deprivation, the recovery, the breastfeeding, everything. It;s super intense. So for sure, don't neglect postpartum plans and getting the support that you need.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So anyway, I think from a couple weeks postpartum with Mila, I ended up finding your podcast and absolutely just binging it and trying to intake any knowledge I could get about VBAC natural childbirth-- just anything I could get my hands on, I was consuming because I knew that I was going to VBAC. I knew that I wanted to have a birth that was as intervention-free as possible for my second. So I ended up getting pregnant with my second daughter Bailey in the summer of 2022. The very first thing I did was I hired a doula. I already knew what doula I wanted before we even got pregnant because we had interviewed a few, and the doula that I found was actually a VBAC mom herself. And she just had a beautiful calming energy about her. I was like yep, that's who I want. So with that test, the lines turned pink, and I was already getting her on board. I ended up hiring the midwife that she recommended as well. I was intent on doing everything that I could this second pregnancy to set myself up for a successful VBAC that I could possibly do because I knew that if I did everything that I could possibly do and it still ended up in a C-section, then I don't have to have any lingering questions of well, what if I had done this? So it was like, I was going to do everything I could to set myself up for success. I was super diligent with eating well, exercising, and chiropractic care. I did all of the Spinning Babies' exercises, walking, and yoga. I did a HypnoBirthing course which I really, really liked, and I'm doing again for this pregnancy. I put up my birth affirmations. I did all the things You name it, I did it. My husband was super, super amazing and supportive and he was there with me every step of the way through every appointment and did all the coursework with me and everything like that. I'm very lucky to have a super supportive husband. I had another pretty uneventful easy going pregnancy. Other than a little bit more morning sickness and some SPD, it was pretty easy. I will say there's one thing that they make you do here, and I don't know if you guys have to do it in the US but if you're planning for a VBAC you have to see an OB around 36-37 weeks. Do you guys have to do that as well?Meagan: Yeah, so not if you're out-of-hospital. You don't have to do it. Some midwives still out-of- hospital will be like, "Hey, I want you to consult with a partnering physician," as in, "Hey, this is someone we would transfer to.: I went a consult with them, but with the midwives in hospital they require them to do a VBAC consult, and it's pretty much a visit where the OB is like, "Hey, this is what you're doing. Here is your risk. Do you comply?"Yeah.Johanna: Yes. So I ended up having to do that, and I knew it was going to be a negative experience. I knew it was just going to be fear-mongering and throwing scary statistics out. So I already had my guard up for that. And then it was also at the hospital where I had my C-section, so even just walking into that environment was very triggering.Meagan: Yeah. So I went to that and I was right. She told me, "As soon as you go into labor, you need to go to the hospital and you should have continual monitoring and and epidural just in case," and all of these things where I'm just like, no, that so goes against everything that I believe will lead to like a healthy, happy birth.I definitely didn't tell her about my plans. I actually was hoping this would end up in a home birth. I didn't actually mention this. My plan-- I didn't want to commit to a home birth. I was a little bit anxious because of my first birth ending up transferring to hospital, that I would end up having to do that again and then have that crushing disappointment that it didn't work out again. So my plan with my midwife was that I was going to labor at home as long as possible, and we were going to play it by ear. As long as everything was going well, then I would potentially have her at home. But I just didn't want to have that pressure that I needed to stay home because this was going to be a home birth. Do you know what I mean?Meagan: No, I totally do. I mean, when I was planning my, it wasn't a HBAC, it was a birth center birth. It's like a downplayed HBAC. I mean, I was in a different home. Right. I totally do. I know exactly what you mean.Johanna: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Johanna: So yeah, I definitely did not tell the OB that my plan was to have a home birth because I just did not even did not want to get into that. So I nodded my head and was like, "Yes, sure. Okay, great."Meagan: Yep.Johanna: At one point, also during my midwifery care for the second pregnancy, my midwife was like, "It's standard for you. The hospital wants you to sign a release form with a backup C-section date."Meagan: What?Johanna: And I was just like, "Yeah, I will also not be doing that." And she was like, "That is totally fine. Just sign that you won't do that." Meagan: I do not consent. Yeah, I do not consent in doing this.Johanna: Yeah, yeah. I was like, I don't need that to clock above my head.Meagan: No.Johanna: So again, my due date arrived and passed. I ended up getting a couple membrane sweeps to try and move things along, but they were unsuccessful. And wow, they are very, very painful.Meagan: So can I super quick touch on that?Johanna: Yes.Meagan: Membrane sweeps-- that's a really big question we see as well. And when you talk about them being painful, that's actually a sign that the cervix wasn't ready. Like it wasn't forward. It wasn't open. If a membrane sweep is painful, it's a real big sign-- it's not a guarantee, but it's a real big sign that your cervix isn't ready. So quick rule of thumb, if you are dilated 2+ centimeters, 3 or more is more ideal. Your cervix is really forward, meaning they don't have to reach back and in, and you are effaced at least 75-80%, that's a little bit more ideal and less painful. But if they are going back, a lot of the times is because they have to reach back and in. And so that is, that is that. And then it can cause pain, prodromal labor, things like that and, and frustration because you're wanting it to work and it's not working.Johanna: Yes. So yeah, they didn't work for me, but my midwife did tell me that I was actually 3 centimeters and she could stretch me to 3. Meagan: Great. So you were at least dilated.Johanna: Yes. So despite the fact that it was super painful and didn't work, I was still feeling very encouraged to know that my body was doing something good. Meagan: YesJohanna: Because you'll remember my first birth, I was completely closed and nothing was happening after my water broke. So I was feeling pretty good about that. At about 40 weeks and 4 days, my water broke again before labor started. It was another one of those slow trickles, and it was the middle of the afternoon, so I called my midwife, and she was like, "Okay, come meet me." She asked if the fluid was clear and I said, "Yes." And she said, "Okay, come meet me at the office later, and we'll do the non-stress test and check you out and make sure everything's dandy." So I went and everything was fine. We were just waiting again for labor to start. I felt okay because I had been through this before, and I knew my body would go into labor, but at the back of my mind I was a little bit stressing out because I was like, okay, I'm on a clock again. I went home. Nothing happened. I woke up the next day and tried to get things going with the breast pump. That got contractions going, but they never stuck around. I ended up confiding with my doula about how stressed I was feeling that I was on a clock and feeling like why can't my body just go into labor? She was extremely reassuring. She came over, and we just talked for a bit, and I felt a lot better after that. That was in the evening, the day after my water broke, and I was supposed to go in for a non-stress test. So I went and met my midwife for a non-stress test that night. It was 36-ish hours after my water had broke. Still, everything was looking good. Baby was good. She was happy. I was fine. There was no need to rush into an induction or anything like that. But she could tell I was stressed. My midwife could tell that I was a bit stressed and she was like, "It's fine. We've got lots of time. You don't need distress.: And she's like, "But I can give you these tinctures or whatever if you want to try them." It was like the blue or black. Meagan: Cohosh.Johanna: Cohosh, yes. I was like "Sure, I'll do anything at this point. I'll try anything. I don't care. So they almost look like tiny, tiny little white beads. I don't know if they're always in the same form.Meagan: Yeah, sometimes they're in drops like tincture drops or almost like you said, a pill-like bead type. Johanna: So she was like, "Okay, let's give you one now." She wanted me to take four doses an hour apart.Meagan: Did you put them under your tongue?Johanna: Yeah. So she got me to take one when I arrived for the non-stress test and then when the non-stress test was over, it had been about an hour, so she gave me a second dose, and then she sent me home with two more. So we went home, and then I took one an hour after the previous dose and it was probably 10:30 at night at that point. Contractions started going after I took the third dose and I was like okay, they're probably going to peter out again because that's what they've been doing all day. I'm tired and I want to go to bed and I don't feel like staying up another hour to take the fourth dose. So me and my husband both took a gravel because my midwife told me to take a gravel and go to sleep.Meagan: What's a gravel?Johanna: A gravel is like an anti-nausea medication, but it makes you sleepy.Meagan: I did not know that. I've never heard of that. I don't think I've never heard it.Johanna: Yeah. Interesting.Meagan: Cool. I love learning. A gravel.Johanna: Gravel.Meagan: Yeah. Okay.Johanna: So yeah, she told me to take one and go to sleep because it makes you drowsy. So I think we had fallen asleep for maybe an hour and a half and I was woken up again with very intense contractions. And this time I was like okay, this is it for real. And like I said, with both my labors, contractions were intense straight out of the gate. So I woke my husband up. Taking the gravel was a mistake because we were both super drowsy. I woke him up and I was like, "I think you need to call the doula because this is definitely happening." And so he called her over and I labored in bed. I did my HypnoBirthing tracks. I did a lot of breathing through the contractions and the HypnoBirthing was super, super helpful, I will say that. We hung out for a while and just did that. My husband tried his best to stay awake despite how tired he was. Eventually, I think I waited maybe a bit longer than I probably should have to call my midwife because I was so determined to stay at home as long as possible. I didn't want her to come and be like oh, you're a 3, right?Meagan: See? Your mind. Even in labor we trigger back. We process things as they're happening from how they happened before, and it's really hard to let go. But your mind was doing it too, right? You're like no, I can't do this because I can't be that.Johanna: Yes. So what we waited, I think it was, I don't know. I have no concept of time. But we waited a couple hours or a few hours and my doula was like, "I think we should call the midwife." I was like, "Okay, can you call her?" So we called her and shortly after we called her, I was having contractions so intense that I was having an out-of-body experience. Like very, very intense. I was getting the shakes and hot and cold lashes. In my mind I was like, I'm going through transition. For sure, for sure. I'm going through transition. My midwife was not there yet and she would not arrive for probably like another hour.Meagan: You progress quickly from history.Johanna: Yes. So, by the time she arrived, she ran upstairs to my room. She checked me and she's like, "Okay, you're at an 8, so if you want to do a hospital transfer, if you want to go, we've got to go now." And I was like, "No, that ship has sailed. We're doing this here. As long as Bailey's healthy and I'm healthy, I'd like to stay here." So she was like, "Okay, we're doing this here." And she called over the other midwife because she wasn't actually sure that it was going to be a home birth, so she didn't have the other midwife with her, so she had to call the secondary midwife to show up. It was all very hectic. This time around, I plan on calling them much more ahead of time so that it's not so hectic when they arrived because lights got turned on, equipment was shuffled around and set up and definitely took away from the vibe a little bit. But yeah. So shortly after she arrived, I was complete and I had that very stereotypical moment where you feel like you got a poo.Meagan: And sometimes you just hold back because you're like, oh crap, wait. Do I need go poo first or should I have? Wait, what should I do? I don't know. I want to have the baby, but I don't want to poop.Johanna: Exactly. So I was like, "Oh my gosh, I feel like I have to poo." My midwife's like, "It's okay. This is normal. You're good." She was just encouraging me to just do what I felt like I needed to do. I ended up pushing for probably an hour, give or take, in a sumo squat position with my midwife on one side and my doula on the other side and then my husband would switch out for the midwife supporting me on either side. And yeah, I only had to push for maybe an hour, give or take. Her head got a little bit squeezed at one point when she was coming out, so when she came out, she was in a bit of shock. Because of where I was in my room, and the equipment was on the other side, my midwife had to make the decision to clamp and cut her cord and take her over to their equipment to give her a little bit of help which was very scary. She didn't end up needing oxygen, but they thought that she might. So she ended up being okay, but it was definitely a scary couple of minutes where I didn't know what was going on. But yeah, she ended up being okay. The only thing I was a little bit disappointed in was the second time around, not being the one who gets to be the one to hold my baby and bring her to my chest and missing out on that experience again.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: But obviously I was amazed that I had done it. I had gotten my home birth, I had gotten my VBAC. I was in shock.Meagan: I can so relate. Sometimes you're so focused on pushing that baby coming out, and then it happens and you're like, am I dreaming that this happen? And you're looking around and you're like blinking and you're like, no, I'm awake. I just did this. I just did this. And you're so excited.Johanna: I was still in La La Land because I had labored so hard for eight hours and yeah, you're out of it and just in disbelief.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Johanna: Like, did this really just happen?Meagan: But it did. It just happened.Johanna: Yeah. So that was a really good feeling. Recovery was like night and day. I could immediately just go and have a nice shower and walk back to my bed and crawl into my bed. It was comfortable and I wasn't in pain. I had mobility, and I could lift my baby up. It was a good feeling. Although I will say that without the epidural, the fundal massage was a really unpleasant experience.Meagan: Yes. So for everyone that doesn't maybe know, fundal massage is something that they do after labor and delivery, they essentially put their hand, sometimes fist. Now it's not like they punch you, but think about a fist. Look at the bottom of your fist. They put the bottom of their fist along your uterus, the top of your uterus. They push down and massage. They push down and they massage. And sometimes they do it three or so times. You take a deep breath, they do it. You take a deep breath, they do it. And why they're doing that is because they're checking to one, make sure your uterus is clamping back down to its normal size right after birth and the placenta is out. It starts doing its job and going boop boop, boop, right back down to its normal size. But sometimes it can get a little boggy or bleeding can occur. So yeah, you want to make sure that. Now, really quick tip. If for some reason your uterus is still staying boggy and not clamping down as much, something you can try to do if you are able is urinate. Go to the restroom. That's a really big thing to help the uterus clamp back down. And even if you have an epidural, sometimes you have to get a straight cath. And if you can't go to the bathroom, sometimes you can get a straight cath to release. But yeah, that is not as friendly when you're unmedicated. But take deep breaths. If you can, get that baby on your chest or hold someone's hand-- your doula, your partner, your midwife, anybody's hand and just take really deep breaths and know that it's okay. It's okay. It doesn't last too long. But yeah.Johanna: So going back to our chat about postpartum.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So the recovery of vaginal versus C-section night and day for sure. But I will say that my postpartum with Bailey was way harder than with my first. It had nothing to do with the birth. I think she was asynclitic in my uterus. And so when she came out, she had a pretty bad case of torticollis and a tongue tie which made breastfeeding very difficult. I got mastitis twice in the first four weeks, like a really bad case twice in the first four weeks. I ended up with a bad case of food poisoning at three weeks postpartum.Meagan: Oh no.Johanna: And I had some prolapse symptoms as well. I will say that there were a lot of things happening in the first month, month and a half of my postpartum that I didn't expect and were very intense and difficult. I mean, just for breastfeeding, I was in so much pain that there were many times that I wanted to just give up and be like, nope, never mind. Forget this.So having good lactation support was really crucial.Meagan: Oh yes. And get lactation support before you have your baby. It sounds weird. It sounds really strange to connect with someone about breastfeeding before your baby is born. But oh my gosh, you guys, it's so impactful. I mean, we've talked about it before with The Lactation Network and other IBCLC supports. It's so important. I had similar. So my baby was born be a Cesarean. So in a Cesarean, a baby can also develop torticollis too with the way they are and the way they come out. But my baby had torticollis and she had a tongue tie. So very, very difficult. Challenging for sure and frustrating.It can impact things like mastitis and yeah, I love that you pointed that out. My was recovery all around better, but that doesn't mean my experience was all sunshine and butterflies. I really want to just highlight that one more time, you guys. Vaginal birth doesn't mean your postpartum journey is going to be the easiest. Mine wasn't. My VBAC after two Cesarean birth was not the easiest. It just wasn't. So again, get those resources beforehand. Right?Johanna: Yeah. And I will say, I don't know what I would have done if I wasn't with midwifery care and having them on call for the six-week postpartum because I swear, I called them every second day about something that was going on.Meagan: Well, and that's more unique to home birth too because even with the hospital birth midwives, it's not the same. They usually say, "Oh, I'll see you in six weeks," and you can call. You can call any OB or midwife. You can call any provider, but there's a different level of care and follow-up in that postpartum stage and it's very impactful. It's very, very impactful.Johanna: Oh for sure. Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love everything and I love all these tips. There are so many tips and nuggets along the way. Is there anything else that you would like to drop here for the listeners in regards to home birth or preparing or postpartum or any words of encouragement that you may have?Johanna: I mean, I think that, like I mentioned at the start, just arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can is going to be your best bet to get the outcome that you want and just feel empowered throughout your pregnancy and your birth. So just arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can get your hands on and yeah, getting a good provider, trusting yourself, believing in your body, and setting yourself up for postpartum too because that's an important thing when you're so focused on getting your VBAC is letting the postpartum stuff fall to the wayside.Meagan: Yeah.Meagan: Taking care of yourself afterwards too is important.Meagan: Yes. Taking care of yourself. We don't. We don't take care of ourselves enough, you guys. Really pamper yourself. If that means you have your postpartum doula. If that means you hire a house cleaner to come in every other week. If that means you hire or have family come in to help, just whatever. Light house cleaning or holding baby or playing with toddler. Johanna, she's going to have two, you guys. She's almost on her third, and it's another baby girl.Johanna: Oh, yes. Yes. That's three for three.Meagan: So three baby girls. I mean, you've got your hands full in your postpartum experience.Right. So really do it. I don't want to stereotype women, but sometimes we get into this space of,  we can do it and we don't need to spend money on ourselves and things like that, but this stage of life is so important to invest in yourself. Really, truly invest in yourself because you deserve it. And your sleep and your experience and your mental health, it all matters so much. So yes, you might hire a cleaner and you might be spending that money, but guess what? That's okay. Do it. Johanna: And when you're taken care of, then you're a better mom to your kids.Meagan: Yes, yes. My husband always says, "When mom is happy, everyone else is happy." But really, really, you deserve it. Women of Strength, you deserve to be pampered and loved and supported. So Johanna, thank you so much again for such a powerful episode. I'm so grateful for you. And please keep us posted on this baby number three.By the time this episode comes out, you will have had this little baby girl.Johanna: Yes. I'm due January 4th, so I will definitely be sending you a message when she makes her entrance.Meagan: Please do. Please do. Okay well, thank you so much.Johanna: Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this special episode, Kristin, host of Ask the Doulas podcast and founder of Gold Coast Doulas,  gives tips on building your supportive birth team. Krisin and Meagan talk specifics on HOW to switch providers if you're feeling the push to do so.Once we have our dream team, we're good and don't have to do any more work, right? Nope! We keep educating and preparing ourselves. That's the way to truly get the most out of that dream team. Kristin's book ‘Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby' is a one-stop shop where you can get all of the education you need for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. Her advice is so valuable for VBAC moms and birth workers, too!Supported: Your Guide to Birth and BabyAsk the Doulas PodcastNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Hello. We have a special episode for you today. We have my friend, Kristin, who is actually the owner of Ask the Doulas Podcast on with us today. She is going to be talking about establishing our birth team and the importance of it. We're going to talk a little bit more about what to expect when we might not find a provider that's supportive and how to navigate it. She's going to talk more about her book and so many things. You guys, I'm really excited. Kristin is a woman who has always had a passion for supporting other women both personally and professionally. In college, Kristin served on the executive committee of her sorority and organized events on campus related to breast cancer and other women's issues. After the birth of her daughter in 2011, a new passion awoke within her. Kristin began reading and studying birth from all perspectives, philosophies, and medical approaches. She joined organizations like The Healthy Kent Breastfeeding Collation and used her event coordinating skills to build and promote the organization and create community awareness. You guys, she has done so many incredible things. Kristin's research has led her to learn more about doulas, and in 2012, she hired doulas herself for the support of her second birth. The level of compassionate care and comfort that she received from her doulas ignited a spark within her and led her down the path of becoming a doula herself. And man, can I connect to this because this is exactly what happened to me. When you guys have a doula who inspires you and touches you and motivates you the way it sounds like Kristin did and I did, even though my doula wasn't a hired doula, she was just a nurse that was a doula for the time being, it does something to you. She earned the certification and became teaching sacred pregnancy classes in 2013. But as you'll see, Kristin is a firm believer in achieving the highest level of education available when providing a service. Shortly after, she earned the following credentials-- you guys, are you ready for this? She's amazing. Oh my gosh. Certified Sacred Doula in 2014. She is a Certified Elite Labor through ProDoula. She is the Elite Postpartum and Infant Care Doula through ProDoula. She's trained in Spinning Babies, Newborn Specialist, Mother Ship, Certified Health Service Provider, certified in VBAC. She is certified in transformational birth and a birth coach for the Birth Coach Method. She is a certified pregnancy and infant loss advocate and certified gift registry expert through Be Her Village, who we will talk about. We both love them so much.She is also an author of a book which we will be sharing more about. It's called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. So without further ado, we are actually going to be skipping a review today and an educational topic because this is such a great episode to be educated and learn more about what Kristin is offering in her community. Okay, my love. Hello. Kristin: Hello.Meagan: We're officially getting going talking about this amazing topic. Tell me what you think about this. I think sometimes people want to assemble this dream team, but they let finances or even partners or other opinions get in the way.Kristin: Yes. Partner comfort level, especially with VBACs is key, or with clients of mine who want their dream is to have a home birth and their partner isn't supportive, so then they say, "Oh, it'll be with the next baby if everything goes well in the hospital." But then if they're a complication, they might risk out of the option of home. I think as consumers, we don't fully appreciate the ability to choose all of our birth and baby team. We can change providers. I switched providers with my first pregnancy early on because I didn't feel like that particular OB was on board with my plans to have an unmedicated hospital birth. I ended up switching to Certified Nurse Midwives and completely changed practices, completely changed hospitals in fact. It's a lot. Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: But it was worth it. And I had the time where it was easier to switch, but I've had clients switch very late in pregnancy. It was harder to find the right office to accept them, but with VBACs, it is crucial to have not just a VBAC-tolerant provider, but someone who is fully on board with your unique desires because we are all individuals.Meagan: Yes. I love that you said your unique desires. Everybody is different. I think it's really important to tell these providers what your desires are. We have a list of questions that we give people in our course and, of course, on the podcast. You can go down that list and check and be like, "Okay, this provider seems pretty supportive," but you guys have to tailor your questions and your provider. You have to tailor it to what your individual unique circumstances and desires are because everyone's is different. I would love to know. You said, I was realizing that this wasn't the right place. What kind of things were you hearing or being told or feeling when you were realizing that maybe your first provider wasn't going to be as supportive and in line with your unique decisions?Kristin: Just when I was talking about my wishes, I could tell that that particular provider liked structure and patience to get that epidural, and so once I started talking about movement, delivering in different positions and some of the things I had researched-- I hadn't yet taken a childbirth class because it was early in pregnancy, but I had done a fair bit of research before knowing what a doula was. I didn't hire doulas until my second. But I could just tell in that gut feeling which I rely on. Again, we're all unique. And yes, I do research, but I make decisions on am I comfortable spending my entire pregnancy with someone who can tolerate me and will say, "Okay"? But I could tell it didn't light her up. So once I found a practice where my nurse-midwife spent time with me, I had longer appointments, I could ask questions, and she was 100% on board with me, and then I was able to meet the other midwives and the OBs who oversaw them throughout the remainder of my pregnancy. I felt very cared for. And again, we are consumers. Whether your insurance pays for everything or you're paying for part of it, you don't get a do-over of your birth, and so it is so important, especially with that first birth to get the care team that aligns with you. That could be everything from a Webster-certified chiropractor, a physical therapist, a mental health therapist to deal with any anxieties that may come up with having a VBAC and getting a lot of fear-filled advice from friends and family members. I find that again, my clients are all unique individuals, and my students in Becoming a Mother Course, and now the readers in my book, have different goals, so I want them to choose the best plan for them. I love that you have worksheets and templates, but knowing that every situation is different whether it's a home birth, a trial of labor, or a hospital birth, that setting is different and the type of provider whether it's a nurse-midwife or an OB practice, how likely is the OB that is very VBAC-supportive going to be attending your birth? Are there 12 providers or are there only 4? And so there's just so many things to factor in when deciding what is important to you.Meagan: Yeah. That point that you just brought up, are there 12 providers? Are there only 4? Does your provider guarantee that they'll be there? These are things that I think a lot of people may not be aware of that because they found their provider. They're feeling good about their provider. They're jiving. They're having the feels, but then they may not be the ones to be there, so there are 11 other options. It feels overwhelming to be like, "Wait, wait. Do I interview all 11?" Yeah, guys. Yeah. You set up visits. It's okay. Go and see if you can meet with those. Make sure that that full team is aligned. It is a lot. That's a lot to take on, but it's okay to rotate and say, "Hey, I saw Dr. Jack last time. I'd like to see Dr. Joe this time," or whatever it may be. Really, really dive in, find out more about your provider's team if they have a team, and make sure that they align with your unique decisions and desires.Kristin: Absolutely. And that goes for doulas as well.Meagan: Oh, yeah.Kristin: So for VBAC clients, I, over the last couple of years, I do all of the matchmaking, I like to call it, between client and the birth doulas and postpartum doulas on my team, in fact. I like to find out what they're looking for. If they are attempting a VBAC, then many times, they're telling me they want a VBAC-certified doula. I have doulas that have gone through your program and are certified through you and other different VBAC trainings. They're not just wanting VBAC experience like in my early days of having Gold Coast Doulas. Now, they're wanting that certification because they know that information is being updated as things change. And there's more evidence for VBACs. They also want more than just, "Oh, I've attended four VBACs." They want the education behind it. So I think that is crucial. I'm not going to match, unless there's no one else available on my team, a client with someone who is not certified as a VBAC doula.Meagan: Yeah, I do the same thing with my group here where they're like, "This is really important to me. I want this specific type of doula." Some of my doulas have taken The VBAC Link course. And so I'm like, "Yep, this would be who I would suggest." But I also want to point out that even if you assemble your dream team doula, and they've got all the education and information on VBAC, and they're up to date, I want to just point out that it doesn't mean that you shouldn't inform yourself that you shouldn't get the information because sometimes I feel like it's easy to want to just hire your provider or your doula or your person and let them who know VBAC kind of help and guide you. But it is really important. You're doing yourself a disservice if you personally do not learn more about VBAC and your options as well and rely only on your provider or your doula.Kristin: 100%. The doula, I mean, unless you're paying her for it, will not be attending every one of your prenatal visits during pregnancy. The education that you have to make informed questions and decisions surrounding your birth plan or birth preference sheet, so those conversations are critical. The more information you have as a patient, the better. And as we all know, unless you're having a home birth, your visits are short even with a nurse-midwife. And so it's important to have those questions and to have time to really express concerns. Or if you're finding that that practice or that provider is not in line with your plans, then you can look at other options. And the hospital-- are VBACs even allowed at the hospital that you plan to deliver at? Are they going to induce? What are the Cesarean rates? And looking at all of the different options, and if you need to consider NICUs, that's always a factor in hospital selection as well.Meagan: Yeah, I'm going to kind of go back to where we were in the beginning where you realized based after your feelings and other things that this provider was not the right provider for you, you then changed to CNMs and had a much better experience. Can you discuss your process of that change? How did you change? Did you find the CNMs, have them request your information from the OB? Did you do a formal breakup with your OB? What suggestions would you give to someone who is wanting to do that? I know that sometimes, you were talking about it, in the end, it's a little harder to find, so that's why we stress so importantly to find your provider from the beginning. But we know that sometimes things change. So can you kind of talk about that process in then assembling that dream and getting the steps to get to that dream team?Kristin: Yes. So for me, I had asked friends about which providers they had worked with. So the original OB, a friend of mine, it was her doctor, and she had a great experience. I just wasn't feeling it. She had a student. We have teaching hospitals in my area, so there was a student in the room. I wasn't feeling like she was 100% on board. I could tell that she was very medically driven. I wanted essentially a home birth in a hospital. So I talked to more friends and did research online, and a friend of mine had used this particular practice. I ended up going with the midwife that delivered her three children, and it worked out beautifully because it was early in pregnancy. That practice had openings. It took me a while because I was changing hospitals and practices completely. My insurance, luckily, covered all of the options. But that's another thing to look into. Does your insurance cover the hospital where the provider you want to switch to delivers that if it is a hospital birth? Of course, you can VBAC at home in certain states. So just looking at all of the factors that would come into play. So for me, it was dealing with the paperwork of switching out of that practice, getting admitted, and going to that initial get-to-know-you visit with a nurse and doing my labs before I got to meet with the midwife that I had wanted to work with. And so it took a bit. I mean, no one likes to deal with the paperwork and the phone calls it takes, but your health is so important and especially again, for VBACs.Meagan: Yeah. So you essentially did all the paperwork and the transfer yourself.Kristin: Yes.Meagan: Okay.Kristin: I made all the phone calls, dealt with insurance and made sure that the initial visit was paid for along with the nurse visit, and then that insurance was comfortable with me.Meagan: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I did, when I switched, because I switched it 24 weeks, my midwife just faxed a request to my OB office. It took them a while to send it. We had to ask five times which I think probably would have been faster if I, like you, made the phone calls and did all the things, but I was like in this weird, vulnerable spot of like, I don't want to go back there.Kristin: Right. You don't want to deal with it.Meagan: Yeah, I don't want to deal with it.Kristin: Even just talking to the front desk.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. So we waited for it and they eventually got it. But I think that that's important to note. You guys can make the calls too. You can call and say, "Hey, I'd like to request my records to be printed out or to be sent to this place." Kristin: Yes, and that's what I did. Because otherwise it's six weeks oftentimes or you have to keep calling. They get lost. so I just handled it. But it can be challenging. And as doulas and certainly VBAC doulas, we know the providers who would be not only tolerant but supportive of VBAC. So we get those questions frequently from potential clients and clients of, am I at the right place? And of course, we support whoever our clients choose to have care from. But there's also, if asked, I will tell them about the practice and my own experience as a doula or the agency's experience. And again, in those large practices, there might be four who are so VBAC-supportive. They love it, but then there might be some physicians who are not as comfortable. They feel that a surgical birth might be the better route to go, ad so there's that. So what I like to do as a VBAC doula is to have my clients talk to their provider. Again, go over a birth plan or birth preference sheet and have them sign off on it. That way, if they don't attend the birth, then the other physicians know that this was approved. It's not just a birth plan that is thrown out there, but it has been discussed. It doesn't work all the time, but it has been helpful for my clients no matter if they're a VBAC client or this is their first baby, and again, they have certain goals that they want to achieve like potentially avoiding an induction unless medically necessary.Meagan: Oh my gosh. So I'm just going to re-touch on that, you guys, because that was really, really, really good advice and something I've actually never done or even thought about or suggested to my own doula practice clients. Get your birth preference sheet or birth plans everyone calls a difference. I call it a birth preference sheet, which is a list of all your preferences that you desire. Go over that with your provider, and have them physically sign it. Physically sign it and date it showing that your provider went over it. And like she said, every provider may not be willing to do that, but I will say, if a provider is willing to do that, that says something to me.Kristin: It does. Yes.Meagan: Yeah. Super powerful. Oh, my gosh. Okay, nugget. Grab it, put it in your pocket, everybody. Sign your birth preference sheet so you can have it and keep that in your bag, so if you do have that random on-call doctor who may not even know you or not be so supportive, be like, "This has already been discussed. We were aware of this. My doctor has signed off." Also, you could maybe ask if your provider could make a copy of that and put it in your chart.Kristin: Right. Because yes, it's not just the one that they have on file, but it's also for the ones that you have, that copy that you're bringing and showing the nurse so the nurse and everyone is on the same page. Meagan: Love that. Kristin: And again, with teaching hospitals, you might have residents in and out. There can be some difficult conversations with VBAC and residents who have never seen a VBAC. We're not fully trained yet to support VBAC, and so they might be making suggestions while the provider is not in that check-in. So every state, again, every area is different. I just happen to be in an area with multiple teaching hospitals.Meagan: Same here. We have seen it where I think, I don't want to say this badly. The VBAC world is a world that can have a lot of negativities in it, negative things and big words like uterine rupture. We've got residents who may be coming in and may be training under a provider who has seen a uterine rupture or has maybe molded an opinion on VBAC and is projecting their opinion to that student. Whether or not they're consciously doing it or not, they're saying their opinion, and those opinions might morph that resident's opinion into negative for VBAC. You never know. And so they might be doing things or be more hesitant in areas that they don't need to be, but they are.Kristin: Yeah, it's such a good point. And as you mentioned, I mean, we don't know the traumas that our nurses and medical team, even home birth midwives, have experienced, and they carry that with them. And how can they not? Even as doulas, we witness, but we don't have the liability and the medical training to make it, but we are witnesses of trauma and have our own healing to do to be able to better move on and support the next client. So certainly keeping that in mind that they may have seen something that alters the way they practice.Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: It's not just fear of lawsuits.Meagan: It's really not. It's not. There's a provider here in Utah who is literally so scared of vaginal birth herself. She scheduled all of her Cesareans, even the very first one from the get. She never had trial of labor or TOL. She just doesn't. So can you imagine what her Cesarean rate may be? And she kind of reminds me of the provider you're talking about. She really likes it just so controlled. Come in, start Pitocin, and get the epidural. She likes those things, which we know can sometimes lead to those Cesareans. And so really also discussing with your provider, how do you feel about birth? Have you had babies? And then we have another OB who's like, "I work in the hospital, and I love the hospital, and I trust the hospital system, but I actually gave birth at home with all three of my babies," and so really getting to know your provider, I think, is so good. Okay, let's keep going on this topic of assembling your dream team of experts when planning for birth and baby. What other things would you suggest to our Women of Strength?Kristin: Yes. So as we know, birth is as physical as it is mental, and just the opposite, as mental as it is physical. So preparing with a childbirth class, a comprehensive class, even if you took one before, use the lens of your goal of attempting a VBAC, a trial of labor. And so for us, we happen to teach HypnoBirth at Gold Coast Doulas and that mind/body connection that HypnoBirthing or a gentle birth offers where it's more of using the visualization the way an athlete would in preparing for a marathon or a triathlon, you are using things to reduce fear. You're understanding all of your options. It's very partner involved. I think taking a comprehensive childbirth class, whichever meets your individual goals, is great. That childbirth instructor is a great person to add to your birth and baby team. And then moving your body. So taking a fitness class that is appropriate for pregnancy. So prenatal yoga, there are Barre classes for pregnancy. There are prenatal belly dancing classes, whatever it is. Meagan: Aqua aerobics.Kristin: Yeah, water aerobics are amazing. And so thinking about baby's position and helping labor to go on its own or be quicker. There's acupuncture, acupressure, the Webster-certified chiro for positioning or body balancing experts, so many different options. But I am a big fan of educating yourself and preparing because as you mentioned earlier, Meagan, a doula is not your end all, be all. Just because we have the information and the training, we can't think for you. We don't want to think for you. The more informed you are, the more likely you're going to feel like birth didn't happen to you this time around and you were a direct participant, even if you end up having a surgical birth again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. So talking about courses, you guys, we have our VBAC course. This VBAC course goes into VBAC, the stats about VBAC, the history of VBAC, the history of Cesarean, the stats of Cesarean, the questions, finding the provider, a little bit more of the mental prep, and physical prep. But when it comes to a childirth education course like with the course that she has, they're on different levels. I actually suggest them both.Kristin: Yes, me too. Absolutely.Meagan: But it's so important to know the information that is in your course. I know you go even past preparing for birth and then birth and then postpartum. You go into all of it. We're going to talk more about it. But you guys, we as doulas, love getting information and we love sharing information. But like she said, we don't want to be the only one that knows the information in a team. When our clients come in, at least here in my group, when our clients come in and they are fully educated and we're like, yes. And then we can come in with our education and our experience and knowledge, you guys, it is a powerhouse team. It is a powerhouse team. We have clients who, when they take child birth education classes like yours, they are able to advocate more for themselves. They feel stronger to stand up and say, "Hey, thank you so much, but no thanks" or "Maybe later," when our clients who haven't had that childbirth education or just any information other than maybe what we're providing, which is great, but not enough in the full length of pregnancy, it's a little harder. We have to try to encourage those clients a little bit more because it's harder for them because they don't know everything. We're there to help guide them and help advocate for them and educate them, but it is very different.Kristin: It is. It's so different. And I feel like, again, partners, especially male partners, want to fix things. They don't want their love to feel any pain, and so they may have the fear of a VBAC. So taking a VBAC class course, having a VBAC doula, giving information is just as helpful, if not more for the partner and their comfort level and to have them fully get on board because they may be resisting and just going along for the ride, but if you can get them to be an active participant in education, then they're going to be able to help you. And sometimes in labor, we get to a point in transition where we can't fully speak for ourselves. But if our partner understands, is educated and on board, and if there's time to talk through the risks and benefits and alternatives with your doula, then yes. But sometimes decisions have to be made quickly, and so for that partner to be informed and educated is crucial.Meagan: So crucial. It's so powerful. My husband-- he was not so on board. He was like, "Whatever. I don't care. You can go to the courses. You can do these things."Kristin: And that's very typical.Meagan: It's very typical. And I did. I did do those things. When I said, "Hey, I'm going to birth out-of-hospital," and he was like, "No," I was like, "Well, sorry. I've done the education. I know this is really where my heart is pulling." We touched on this in the beginning how partners really can influence decision making. And in no way, shape or form am I trying to say partners are terrible or don't listen to your partner or anything like that. That's not the goal of what we're saying is have an educated partner. Know that you can assemble a birth team, like a provider, a chiropractor, a massage therapist, a doula, a PT, or whatever it may be, but don't forget about your partner. Your partner is a huge part of your team, and if they're not educated and they're not able to help guide you through, or if they're not being supportive, find ways to help them be supportive by taking a course with them and helping them realize, oh, VBAC actually isn't that scary. Oh, that chance isn't really 50+%. Oh, okay. Hospital birth, out-of-hospital birth. Yeah. They're both reasonable, and really understanding that.Kristin: Absolutely. And sometimes I find that my students and clients may have not had success with breastfeeding the first time and potentially didn't take a class. So if their goal is to breastfeed or pump exclusively, then taking a breastfeeding class and having that IBCLC as a resource for their dream team in case it's needed because many times, you have the lactation consultant who's teaching the class, at least in my practice, and then they're also available for say, a home visit or a hospital visit, depending on where the class is taking place. And so I think that that's something. Even if it isn't your first baby and maybe you breastfed for a little bit or had supply issues or challenges after a surgical birth, that it is important to consider any education during pregnancy because it's much harder to get that education after you have your baby.Meagan: It really is. I love that you're touching on that, really getting into all the things and having your partner go with you. I remember I was like, I had a C-section, and I was swollen and tired, and I couldn't move very well. I was sore and all the things that sometimes come with C-sections. I'm trying to nurse, and I'm engorged.  I don't feel my letdown, and I'm just so engorged. I don't know. All I know is I have really big, swollen boobs. It's all I could tell. I couldn't latch. My husband was like, "That's it. We're going to the store. We're getting formula." Formula is fine. Not anything against formula.Kristin: He's trying to fix the problem and make you feel better.Meagan: Yep, yep, yep. Trying to fix that problem. But I was like, "No, I really want to breastfeed." At that point, I wasn't able to communicate. Like, I didn't get the birth I wanted. I already felt like a failure because I was actually told that your body failed. That's what I was told. So I was already dealing with this mindset that I failed. I had a C-section. I didn't want a C-section. And now the only thing I could try to do because I couldn't take that C-section back is breastfeed my baby. I wanted to breastfeed my baby. And again, we didn't take those childbirth education classes. He for sure didn't download any apps. I at least had an app trying to help me at that point, but he didn't understand. He didn't understand.And I'm like, no.I'm crying, and I'm like, "Please, just help me. I don't know what I need to help me." And he's like, "No, we're going to the store. Our baby's mad. You're crying." He was trying to fix that problem. But if we had already done that information education before and found that IBCLC before and him understanding how important that was to me, he could have been like, "I'm going to call her IBCLC. I'll get her over here right away."Kristin: Exactly. The last thing you want to do is go into the hospital to see a lactation consultant there if you can even get in.Meagan: Exactly. Yeah. So it just could have been so much smoother. Sometimes I feel like we were against each other at that point because he didn't have any education. With our first, I really didn't have much education. But with our third, it was like he really didn't have a lot of education. and I was over-the-top educated, so I was saying these things, and he was thinking I was demeaning him or saying he was stupid because it was just this weird thing. So if we can just come together with our partners and get all the education and get it all before really, find out a postpartum plan. Find out a breastfeeding plan. Right? Find out what you want. You guys, it just makes the pregnancy journey and the postpartum journey, so much better. It truly makes you feel like you're on that team because you are.Kristin: Yes. Absolutely. And certainly, I mean, you mentioned apps. Not everyone has the means or even lives in an area where they can take a comprehensive five, six, ten-week childbirth class. There are, obviously, online classes. There are some Zoom virtual ones where students are all over the place. But there are watching birth videos and YouTube and in my book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, we talk about apps, so count the kicks. Especially for VBACs, doing the self-monitoring if there's fear of fetal movement and any sort of distress during the end of the pregnancy, then really understanding your own body and doing monitoring. It's not just when you're in your provider's office being monitored. You can make a difference yourself. So having some different apps and some education on your own, listening to podcasts like yours to get this information and reading books. So there's more than if you can't afford a childbirth class like HypnoBirthing, there are still ways that you can get educated and your partner can get educated. So yeah, take a look at all of your options and your budget.Meagan: Yeah, and we talk about this all the time because I love them, but Be Her Village is a really great resource where you can go fill out a registry and, hopefully, get some help for these things. Childbirth education classes, doulas, IBCLCS. But I want to dive a little bit more into your book, actually, while we're talking about different resources. We talked about the childbirth education, but can we talk about more about Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby and how this came into fruition and what all is included in this amazing book.Kristin: Okay, Meagan. So essentially the book came out of our online course. Becoming a Mother launched in the early pandemic when everything was shut down and our classes all had to go virtual. I was fortunate to be in a state where doulas who were certified were able to work thanks to our governor. So we were working, but there was still a lot of isolation even with our clients' prenatal visits. They wanted a connection, so we launched this course. We had talked about and did three live launches, got VBAC from our students, pulled people in from all the moms' groups before creating the first draft of the course. And then the course just led to the book. So the content in Becoming a Mother is what is in the book in a different format. So in Becoming a Mother, we have expert videos, so VBAC specialists and Webster-certified chiropractors talking about what that is. Pelvic floor physical therapists, car seat safety technicians, cord blood banking donation centers.Meagan: Awesome.Kristin: We have the experts speaking for themselves-- a pediatrician. And so in the book, anything that is medical and out of the scope of a doula, we had expert contributors, so I have a pediatrician friend of mine who contributed a newborn procedure section of the chapter and a prenatal yoga studio instructor, she's also a certified body balancer. She contributed to some of the fitness options in the book, and a mental health therapist who is PMA focused and certified contributed to the mental health chapter. We have an IBCLC that contributed to the feeding chapter, and so a lot of involvement, and then sharing client stories throughout the book and then our own wisdom. We have doula tips and wisdom at the end of every chapter. Meagan: Wow.Kristin: And so as clients were asking me for books over the years, I couldn't find anything that was positive. I felt like there were a lot of, this is your cry-it-out method for sleep because we have a whole chapter on sleep and it's very attachment-focused. It's like, one way for feeding, and we wanted our clients, with their unique choices for themselves, to have a book that supports people who want to plan surgical birth like that OB and that's their comfort level and a book for the same person who wants a home birth. You don't have to buy five different books. It's not always Ina May which is a great book but not for everyone. All of her different-- she's got Spiritual Midwifery and so many different books. It is great for grandparents to read and partners but is targeted to the mother or the mother-to-be and is great in preconception in that early planning. But also, we wanted to make it similar to the course and just as valuable for seasoned bombs as it is for new moms. And again, it's affirming. We tried not to have any fear-filled information in a simple, easy-to-read guide that you can pull out for reference and a lot of different, again, apps and podcasts and books to read and resources and evidence-based information about Black maternal health and where we're at in the country now and how the pandemic impacted birth especially, but also that postpartum time.Meagan: Wow. That book sounds amazing. So amazing. And you guys, you can get it in every form, even Audible. I'm a big listener. I like to listen to books. Kristin and Alyssa actually recorded it. She was telling me they had 10+-hour days recording this this book. You can get it, and we will make sure to have the links for that in the show notes. I found it at goldcoastdoulas.com/supportedyourguidetobirthandbaby.Kristin: It's there. You can find it off that website or it has its own page. It's supportedbook.com. Meagan: Supportedbook.com, okay. We'll make sure that's all in the show notes, so you guys can grab that. Okay, so you know a lot. Obviously, you wrote a whole book and a whole course and all this stuff. Is there anything else that you would like to share in regards to just our final assembling of that powerhouse birth team?Kristin: So don't forget, I know we're talking a lot about pregnancy and birth prep, but don't forget your recovery phase. And you had talked about your own personal struggles with breastfeeding engorgement, recovery after a surgical birth. If you have, well, you do have other children at home with VBACs, and so looking at childcare, postpartum doula support, or what kind of family support you're going to have after, it's more than just meal plans and prepping the nursery. We strongly believe that as part of your dream team, the postnatal team is crucial as well. So whether it's a lactation consultant, a pelvic floor physical therapist, if you want to get back to running marathons again or are leaking. I mean, we can all use pelvic floor physical therapy. It's not just the athletes who they support. Some people, again, with building a home or other life occurrences like a wedding or preparing for college, you look at your budget. You look at your main goals. For a wedding, it might be food. For postpartum, it might be sleep. So hiring a sleep consultant when baby's old enough or an overnight postpartum doula or a newborn care specialist. What are your priorities? And take the budget. What might be paid for by insurance or, a health savings flex spending plan that you need to run down? What might be gifted? Like you mentioned, Be Her Village. There are different ways you can budget. And in the book, we talk about all of that and looking at employer plans, how to navigate that, what questions to ask your HR department about other members, like a chiropractor, could that be covered? A therapist? Oftentimes, we don't know our own benefits and certainly, I don't know my husband's benefits fully, so to be able to investigate that early in pregnancy and figure out what might be fully or partially paid for.Meagan: Wow. That is incredible itself. I feel like that's a whole other conversation of, how to navigate how to do that. So definitely go get the book, you guys, because it sounds like there are just so many things in there that are honestly crucial to know. really, really important things to know. You are incredible. Kristin: So are you.Meagan: I just enjoy chatting with you so much. Anything else? Yeah, anything else you'd like to add?Kristin: And obviously, take taking trainings and courses. If I know you have doulas who listen. It's not just parents.Meagan: Yes.Kristin: As doulas go through The VBAC Link. Get certified as a VBAC doula. Keep up with information that is ever-changing. We all want to be the best doula for each of our clients, but I am a firm believer in continuing our own education and that more and more of our clients are choosing to attempt VBACs, and so the more information you can get as a professional, the better you're able to support. It's just not the number of VBACs you've attended anymore. It's clients wanting that knowledge so you can be busier and also a more effective doula by getting that training and then going through the certification process that you offer.Meagan: Yeah, have a directory actually with birth doulas where people can go and find it because when Julie and I created this company way back in the day, we knew that we were just two people here in Utah. We couldn't change the VBAC world. We could give as much information as we could. We could share the podcast. We could do those types of things. But when it comes to birth workers, we wanted to reach birth workers everywhere. It's so great that we have and we're still having more people come on because they're helping people so much. I mean, we know you have doulas that do it all the time. These doulas do help and there are actual stats on doulas that do it. But I agree. If you're a birth worker, stay up to date. Be in the know. Know what's going on because you will likely need to help guide your client through it. Kristin: Then you can charge more. So take that investment in a training like The VBAC Link, and then you're able to charge more because you're more experienced. You have more certifications. So don't look at like, oh, I don't have any money for continuing education. Look at how that's going to change your career.Meagan: Yeah, and I think sometimes too you can charge a little bit more, take less clients, and be more personal with those clients and dive into it. Especially because we do know that VBAC does take some extra stuff that goes on with VBAC. There's some extra work to be worked through. There are some extra things and so yeah, I love that.Kristin: Well, thank you so much for having me on Meagan, I loved our chat.Meagan: Thank you. You as well. As always, I loved our other chat as well. We have to keep going. I think I'm going to order your book today and get going on that. Even though I'm not a mom preparing, I think this would be such a great book to suggest to all of my clients. So thank you for sharing. Thank you.Kristin: Yeah. My secondary audience is certainly anyone who works with families in the birth and baby space, but it is targeted again, just similar to my podcast. It's like I have the listener of the pregnant individual and family, but also birth workers. The book is similar. Thank you for ordering.I appreciate it. Meagan: Yes. And can you also tell everybody where to find you not just in your book, but Instagram, podcast, and all of the social medias?Kristin: So my podcast is Ask the Doulas. You can find us on all the podcast players and you were a guest recently, so very fun. And certainly, we're at Gold Coast Doulas on everything from Pinterest to YouTube to Facebook to Instagram. I don't have separate social sites for my book because I honestly don't have time for that.Meagan: That's okay. Yeah, it's a package. It comes with everything, so you don't need to have another book page. Well, awesome. Well, thank you again so much.Kristin: Thank you. Have a great day.Meagan: You too.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Joyce Celines beide bevallingen werden ingeleid bij 42 weken, maar de ervaringen konden niet verder uit elkaar liggen. Waar ze de eerste bevalling als heel intens ervaarde, was de tweede ziekenhuisbevalling ontzettend helend. Haar eerste bevalling werd ingeleid omdat ze al 72 uur gebroken vliezen had. Na een slapeloze nacht met veel weeën thuis begon de inleiding met synthetische oxytocine, werd het in de transitiefase echt teveel en koos Joyce voor pijnstilling en kreeg ze een knip. Na de bevalling bleek ze een fluxus te hebben: ze had 1,5 liter bloed verloren. Daardoor was ze in de tweede bevalling ook medisch. Ook toen werd ze weer ingeleid bij 42 weken. Deze ervaring was echter compleet anders. Er kwamen weinig interventies aan te pas en het voelde als een helende thuisbevalling in het ziekenhuis. Zo kan een inleiding dus ook zijn!In deze zesde aflevering van de serie Bevallingsverhalen vertelt Joyce van Essen, ook wel bekend als Joyceceline.nl, kersverse moeder van haar 2e kindje Sophie die geboren is in oktober 2024 en daarnaast heeft ze een peuterzoontje van bijna 4 jaar. Ze noemt zichzelf professioneel aandachtstrekker en inspireert andere ondernemers om via social media zonder teveel poespas de juiste aandacht te trekken.In deze serie, die tweewekelijks op woensdag online komt, interviewen Simone & Malou van Moekes een inspirerende mama over haar unieke bevalverhaal. Naast deze serie, zijn de reguliere afleveringen van Moekes de Podcast elke maandag te beluisteren.***Gehoord in deze aflevering (affiliate link):-⁠ Ina May's Guide to Childbirth⁠Gebruik onze code:- MOEKES10 voor 10% korting op de ⁠⁠geboortecursus Bevallen als een Baas van Nira van Dijk⁠⁠- MOEKES15 voor 15% korting bij ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Plantoys - duurzaam houten speelgoed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meer weten of heb je een vraag? Volg ons op Instagram:⁠⁠⁠⁠Moekes de Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Malou de Rooy ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Simone Plukkel ⁠⁠⁠⁠______Deze aflevering is gesponsord door Bevallen Als Een Baas, ook wel afgekort als BAEB. Dé zwangerschaps/bevalcursus. Zelf hebben wij beide deze cursus gedaan en zijn hier mega tevreden mee. De cursus in mega compleet. Je leert over de fysiologie van een bevalling, maar ook over alle interventies. Door deze cursus heb je meer vertrouwen op jezelf, houdt je beter regie tijdens je bevalling en voorkom je onnodige medicalisering. Gebruik de kortingscode MOEKES10 om 10% korting te krijgen op de cursus Bevallen Als Een Baas (BAEB) van Nira van Dijk.Adverteren in deze podcast? Mail naar⁠⁠⁠⁠moekesdepodcast@gmail.com

Show Notes: In this episode, we look at a part of breastfeeding that can be very troubling and frustrating for moms if they aren't ready for it.  It's called clusterfeeding and it is a completely normal part of the nursing journey, though it can be quite tiring. Books mentioned: Ina May's Guide to Breastfeeding by Ina May Gaskin Breastfeeding Made Simple by Nancy Mohrbacher     Helpful Links: — BIBLE STUDY - FREE Bible Study Course - How To Be Sure Of Your Salvation - https://the-ruffled-mango-school.teachable.com/p/how-to-be-sure-of-your-salvation   — CHRISTIAN CHILDBIRTH EDUCATION - Sign up HERE for the Your Birth, God's Way Online Christian Childbirth Course! This is a COMPLETE childbirth education course with a God-led foundation taught by a certified nurse-midwife with over 20 years of experience in all sides of the maternity world! - https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/cec   — HOME BIRTH PREP - Having a home birth and need help getting prepared?  Sign up HERE for the Home Birth Prep Course. — homebirthprep.com   -- COACHING - Sign up for your PERSONALIZED Pregnancy Coaching Midwife & Me Power Hour HERE  — https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/powerhour These consults can include: birth plan consultation, past birth processing, second opinions, breastfeeding consultation, and so much more!  Think of it as a special, one-hour appointment with a midwife to discuss whatever your concerns may be without any bias of practice policy or insurance policy influencing recommendations.   — GET HEALTHY - Sign up here to be the first to know about the new Women's Wellness Program coming from Lori SOON! https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/yourhealth   — MERCH - Get Christian pregnancy and birth merch HERE - https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/store   — RESOURCES & LINKS - All of Lori's Recommended Resources HERE - https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/resources   Sign up for email updates Here   Be heard! Take My Quick SURVEY to give input on future episodes you want to hear -- https://bit.ly/yourbirthsurvey   Got questions?  Email lori@yourbirthgodsway.com     Social Media Links: Follow Your Birth, God's Way on Instagram! @yourbirth_godsway Follow the Your Birth, God's Way Facebook Page! facebook.com/lorimorriscnm Join Our Exclusive Online Birth Community -- facebook.com/groups/yourbirthgodsway   Learn more about Lori and the podcast at go.yourbirthgodsway.com!   DISCLAIMER:  Remember that though I am a midwife, I am not YOUR midwife.  Nothing in this podcast shall; be construed as medical advice.  Listening to this podcast does not mean that we have entered into a patient-care provider relationship. While I strive to provide the most accurate information I can, content is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate.  You must do your research and consult other reputable sources, including your provider, to make the best decision for your own care.  Talk with your own care provider before putting any information here into practice.  Weigh all risks and benefits for yourself knowing that no outcome can be guaranteed.  I do not know the specific details about your situation and thus I am not responsible for the outcomes of your choices.    Some links may be affiliate links which provide me a small commission when you purchase through them.  This does not cost you anything at all and it allows me to continue providing you with the content you love.

Juliette Schraauwers' bevalling begon als een prachtige thuisbevalling in bad met volledige ontsluiting, maar eindigde in het ziekenhuis met meerdere interventies.Voor haar gevoel had ze twee compleet verschillende bevallingen. Toen het thuis stagneerde en er geen voortgang meer inzat moest ze toch, met volledige ontsluiting, nog naar het ziekenhuis. Waar ze meerdere interventies kreeg en uiteindelijk koos voor een keizersnede. In deze vijfde aflevering van de serie Bevallingsverhalen is Juliette Schraauwers te gast. Juliette is ondernemer, spreker, maar bovenal: Childhood changemaker. Ze richt zich op onze nieuwste generatie en wil ervoor zorgen dat zij opgroeien als holistische denkers en doeners. Ze is moeder van Charlie (1,5 jaar).Ook hebben we het nog over de rebirth die Juliette met haar zoontje heeft gedaan en over het fantastische werk dat Juliette doet voor Charlie én andere kindjes.In deze serie, die tweewekelijks op woensdag online komt, interviewen Simone & Malou van Moekes een inspirerende mama over haar unieke bevalverhaal. Naast deze serie, zijn de reguliere afleveringen van Moekes de Podcast elke maandag te beluisteren.***Gehoord in deze aflevering (affiliate linkjes):- Ina May's Guide to Childbirth- Nina Pierson - Mama'en- Ayurveda Mama: A Comprehensive Guide to Preparing for Pregnancy, Birth, and Postpartum- Cursus van Juliette: Nourish Childhood CourseMet de code MOEKES25 krijg je 5 euro korting op de cursus van Juliette!Gebruik onze code:- MOEKES10 voor 10% korting op de ⁠geboortecursus Bevallen als een Baas van Nira van Dijk⁠- MOEKES15 voor 15% korting bij ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Plantoys - duurzaam houten speelgoed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠- MOEKES20 voor 20% korting bij ⁠⁠⁠⁠Dilling.nl⁠⁠⁠⁠ - wollen kledingGeldig t/m 15 maart 2025Meer weten of heb je een vraag? Volg ons op Instagram:⁠⁠⁠Moekes de Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Malou de Rooy ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Simone Plukkel ⁠⁠⁠______Deze aflevering is gesponsord door DILLING. Sinds 1916 is DILLING's liefde voor merinowol de kern van hun klassieke, tijdloze wollen kleding voor de hele familie. In de koude maanden helpt de merinowol mensen van alle leeftijden zich warm te houden, terwijl deze tegelijkertijd de huid laat ademen. De kleding van DILLING bevat geen schadelijke chemicaliën of zware metalen en is daarom allergievriendelijk en ideaal voor de gevoelige huid van baby's.Gebruik de kortingscode MOEKES20 om 20% korting te krijgen op je volgende bestelling. De code is geldig tot en met 15-03-2025. Bekijk meer op⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠dilling.nl.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Adverteren in deze podcast? Mail naar⁠⁠⁠moekesdepodcast@gmail.com

Join us as we explore Jalicia's inspiring birth journey, emphasizing faith, preparation, and trusting in God's perfect timing. Through her story, Jalicia shares how she leaned into her faith, combined spiritual and practical tools, and embraced the beauty of childbirth. This episode provides practical advice, spiritual reflections, and empowering resources for expecting families.What You'll Learn: • Faith and Birth: How Jalicia integrates her Christian faith and hypnobirthing techniques into labor and delivery. • Resource Highlights: • The Happy Homebirth Podcast: Stories and tips for creating a positive homebirth experience. • Books for Birth Partners: Insights from The Birth Partner and Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. • The Business of Being Born: Key takeaways from this eye-opening documentary (linked resource). • Preparation Tips: • Nutrition and placenta smoothies for postpartum recovery. • Using tools like Sneak Peek for early gender revelation (linked resource). • Healing After Birth: Managing episiotomies, recovery tips, and finding balance postpartum.Guest Bio:Jalicia NasibeboJalicia is a devoted wife, mother, and friend who centers her life on faith and family. Her love for Jesus inspires her to share stories of hope, good food, and the miracle of birth. Connect with her on Instagram and Facebook to follow her journey of faith and inspiration.Instagram: @jalicia.nasibeboFacebook: Jalicia NasibeboLinks and Resources Mentioned: • The Happy Homebirth Podcast • The Business of Being Born • Sneak Peek - Early Gender TestCall to Action:If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review, and share with someone who could benefit! Questions, suggestions, or stories? Email us at bornwildpodcast@gmail.com.Connect With Us:Instagram: @sophiabirth, @bayareahomebirth, @bornwildmidwiferyStay Wild

Welcome to my natural birth story episode! I'm taking a break from motherhood to share my powerful story with all of you and the lessons I learned along the way.Most women have no idea what they are capable of…Or that they even have options when it comes to the interventions of their birth…Which is why I want to share my story with you here today. Let's dive in!******************➠ Discover the unique ROOT CAUSE that is keeping you stuck on the sugar rollercoaster every year. Take the QUIZ HERE NOW. ➠ Ready to finally kick your emotional eating habit and build a new healthy relationship with sugar from the inside out? Say goodbye to late night snacking and stress eating for good. Get immediate access to my exclusive and FREE Kick Emotional Eating 3 Part Training here. Natural Birth Resources:Mama Natural (book and website are great!): https://www.mamanatural.com/Ina May's Guide to Natural Childbirth: https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156Hypnobirthing books and podcasts******************Come hang out with me and keep the conversation going on social media:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danielledaemcoachingInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielledaem/Join the Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/simplybalancedhealthYouTube (where you can watch all these episodes in video!) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLCqU7XE_KU1xPmjkpZyGPA******************Medical DisclaimerThe information provided in this podcast is for general purposes only and is not intended to be professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. My personal advice should NOT be taken as professional advice and you are always advised to consult with your own healthcare provider before making any changes to your health and wellness routine. This podcast is intended to inspire and offer alternative views to healing your relationship with food, mind and body. It is up to each listener to take responsibility for their own health and wellness decisions. I hold no liability or responsibility for your results or lack thereof.  

Flannery joins us today from Connecticut sharing her story of an unexpected C-section at 35 weeks due to oligohydramnios, breech presentation, and concerns with her baby's kidney functions. She was also transferred to an unfamiliar hospital for its surgical capabilities. Though she was terrified, her anesthesiologist was calm and reassuring. The toughest memory of Flannery's birth was not being able to kiss her baby before he was swept away to the NICU. She was determined to do everything in her power not to have that happen again the second time. Knowing she had a bicornuate uterus, she worked hard to keep her baby's head down from the very beginning of her second pregnancy. She switched to a midwife practice, carried her baby past her due date, went into spontaneous labor, and had an intensely beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC!NICU Free ParkingTypes of Uterine ShapesAFI ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have our friend from Connecticut. And you know what? I didn't ask. How do you say your name? Flannery: It's Flannery. Meagan: That's how I was going to say it. Flannery: Yes, good job. Meagan: We have our friend, Flannery, here from Connecticut and she has a bicornuate uterus. This week's focus is on different shaped uteruses or uterine abnormalities as I'm air quoting. We know that people have them. People have different-shaped uteruses. Sometimes that can impact things like breech babies or even a provider's ability to support– I don't want to say ability. It's their willingness to support, especially in VBAC. We're going to be diving into that. She's also a NICU mama so for other NICU mamas, she might have some tips for you along the way. She just told me before this that she was a labor and delivery nurse before she had her first. Flannery: Yep, and then I switched over. Meagan: Now she switched over to postpartum. She knows the field, so we might talk a little bit about labor and delivery nursing and the postpartum world. Flannery: Yeah, definitely. Meagan: Awesome. Okay, well let's get into your stories. Flannery: Okay, thank you. I'm so excited. I would listen to this podcast all the time when I was pregnant. At the end, when they say, “If you'd like to share your VBAC story–” and I would say, “I will be sharing my VBAC stories someday.” Meagan: I love that. “I will be sharing my story”, and here you are sharing with all of the other Women of Strength coming to learn and grow and feel empowered. Flannery: Yeah, I loved it. My first pregnancy was actually an unplanned pregnancy. I had just gotten married. I just started a labor and delivery nurse job. I was noticing that I wasn't feeling great, that I had some bleeding which I thought was my period, so I just was like, “You know what? Let me take a pregnancy test just to reassure myself because there is no way that it will be positive.” It was, and I was so shocked. I remember taking the tests, seeing the two lines, and my heart dropping. I thought to myself, “I am not ready to be a mom. I can't believe that I am having an unplanned pregnancy. This is so crazy.” I was only 25 which I know is not that young, but up here in Connecticut, it's pretty young. Meagan: Is it really? What's the average for first-time moms? Can I ask?Flannery: I'm guessing 30-32. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: None of my friends had babies yet or anything, so I felt very alone and obviously very shocked. Yeah. I had no idea how far along I was. I went to the dating ultrasound with my husband at the hospital where I worked, and they put the wand on my belly. There was a full baby in there. It wasn't a bean. It wasn't a little heartbeat, but it was a baby. They said, “You're 11.5 weeks along.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Really?Flannery: Yeah. I was beyond shocked. Meagan, I had no idea that I was pregnant. I didn't have any symptoms. I was having some bleeding, so I thought that had been my period, but nope. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Was it implantation bleeding? But then that would be too late. Flannery: I don't know. I think maybe just how some people get first-trimester spotting or bleeding after sex or exercise or something. I'm thinking that's what it was. Meagan: Crazy. Flannery: I know. I had skipped the first trimester, and that terrified me because I wasn't on a prenatal. I was having some wine. I was just like, “How could I have missed this? This is embarrassing. I'm a nurse.” Meagan: “I'm a nurse.” Hey, listen. It happens. People talk about it. I'm sure that was such a shock not only to see those two pink lines and that you were not having babies with any of your friends, but then you skipped the whole first trimester. Flannery: Crazy. It was crazy. It took a while to wrap our heads around it. Then during the ultrasound, hearing the ultrasound tech saying, “Have you ever had an ultrasound of your uterus before?” I was like, “No,” not thinking anything of it, just focusing on the baby, and then I got a call from my doctor a few days later, and she was like, “So, it looks like you have a bicornuate uterus. Have you ever heard of that?” I was like, “No. I've never heard of that before.” She said, “Basically, your uterus is shaped like a heart, and it should be shaped like a balloon.” I was like, “Okay. That doesn't sound too bad.” We hung up. I went on Google and Googled “bicornuate uterus”, and let's just say the stuff that comes up is not reassuring at all. It's so scary. It says things like, “Risk of preterm delivery. Risk of stillbirth. Risk of infertility. Risk of malpresentation.” It just went on and on. Postpartum hemorrhage, and all of this stuff, so I really broke down. I remember just crying and crying to my husband, “I've had this crazy birth defect my whole life, and I've never known it.” I didn't know how it was going to impact my birth or anything. That was definitely scary.Meagan: Did they tell you anything about how it could impact your pregnancy or your birth? Flannery: Not really. This was a general GP doctor that I was seeing, so she didn't really go into it with me, but I definitely spoke about it to the midwives that I was seeing once I established care with them. They were just like, “Yeah, it can cause baby to be breech.” That was all they told me about it. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: Yeah. I was doing a lot of research looking for podcasts and everything about bicornuate uterus and all of the things that go along with it, but I couldn't really find much. This was a few years ago, so maybe three or four podcast episodes about bicornuate uterus, breech, and malformation. I think now there are more, but at the time, it was really hard to find information. Meagan: Yeah. I still feel like it's 2024. What year are we in? We are almost in 2025. We are in 2024, and it still is. There is still not a ton. It's not a beefy topic. Flannery: No, it's really not. I think that some people don't know they have it until they get pregnant which was in my case, and they have an ultrasound. It's hard to tell later on in pregnancy if you have it because your baby will stretch out the uterine space, so you can really only tell in the first trimester if you have an ultrasound. Meagan: Interesting. Good to know. Flannery: So my pregnancy progressed pretty normally after that. I was very stressed at this new job in labor and delivery that I was working in. I was seeing really scary births all of the time, traumatic births, and some good ones too, but it put this idea in my head that you cannot plan your birth. Things are so out of your control that there's no reason to have a plan because you're just going to be disappointed anyway. All you can do is go with the flow. That was my attitude at the time. It's definitely changed since then. It was definitely interesting trying to be a first-time mom and also learn how to be a labor and delivery nurse and reconcile the two experiences that I was seeing. Meagan: I bet. Flannery: Yeah. Meagan: I bet that would be really challenging. Flannery: It was. It was interesting. I established care with some midwives who I worked with. They were highly recommended, but I didn't really feel like they were giving me the midwife experience that I had heard so many people rave about. I felt like they really treated me like a coworker instead of a first-time mom when I was going to their appointments. I was fine with their care. I wouldn't say it was the best or the worst by any means. Then I realized around 25-26 weeks, “Gosh. I'm really feeling this rock under my ribs all the time. I think that's the baby's head. I think the baby is breech.” Then at 28 weeks, I had a growth scan because you have to have growth scans if you have a bicornuate uterus, and they were like, “Yeah, sure enough, the baby is breech.” The midwives told me, “Okay, you can do some Spinning Babies and put an ice pack near the baby's head and play music down low,” and all of those crazy things that you hear. I was like, “Yeah, sure. Okay, I'll try it.” I did a few inversions, but they gave me terrible heartburn, so I was not super consistent with that. The baby just wasn't budging week after week. Eventually, it came to about 35 weeks, and I was getting another growth scan. I had just worked a very tiring shift at work. I went to get my ultrasound. I was dozing off as she did it. She stopped the ultrasound, and she said, “I'm going to send you over to your midwife's office. Go over right now.” I walked over, and the midwife was like, “Girl, what's going on?” I was like, “I don't know. I just had this pit in my stomach, but I had no clue what was going on.” She was like, “You have no fluid. Get back to the hospital. You're going in as a patient now, and we're going to try to rehydrate you.” I was like, “What? What is going on? No fluid? What does that mean?” I guess they had found in ultrasound that my baby's left kidney was super dilated, and my fluid was low which is called oligohydramnios. I know you've talked about this on the podcast before, but I think they measure it with an AFI. It's supposed to be over 8. Mine was a 4. Meagan: Really low. Yeah, below 5. But they were just going to rehydrate you. They weren't going to induce you? Flannery: Not yet, no. They wouldn't have induced me anyway because my baby was breech. Meagan: Which is good. They wouldn't. Yeah. Flannery: They were going to try to rehydrate me first and see how that went. It did, and they decided to give me some steroid shots too. My favorite midwife came in, and she said, “We're going to do these steroid shots, and we're going to see if the rehydrating works. I know you've been working hard. Maybe this is just a dehydration situation because you haven't been able to take care of yourself properly.” I was like, “Okay”, then she made a comment about delivery at 37 weeks. I was like, “Oh, this is a delivery-type situation.” It had really not sunk in with me yet that this was that serious. She was like, “Yes. Oligohydramnios can cause stillbirth. It's very serious. Probably what we are looking at is two weeks of monitoring, and then delivery at 37 weeks which will be a C-section unless your baby flips.” I was like, “Oh my god. Okay.” Meagan: Yeah. But with the fluid, did they want to continue giving you fluid? Did they encourage your hydration with electrolytes and everything? Flannery: Yes, they did. I was chugging water like a maniac for a few days and coconut water and all of this stuff and getting IV fluid. It did come back up a little bit to a 6, maybe. Meagan: I was going to say, did it fix it at all?Flannery: I was still getting a bunch of ultrasounds, then it went right back down to a 4. They said, “We're going to have you consult with maternal-fetal medicine at a bigger hospital on March 9th. My baby was due April 11th, but this was a lot earlier than I was expecting anything to happen. We went to this appointment to get this more detailed ultrasound, and the doctor comes in. She seems very nervous. That's not what you want. You don't want a doctor to seem nervous.No. She's like, “It looks like your baby's left kidney is non-functional. It's just a cluster of cysts.” Meagan: Oh no. Flannery: I was like, “Oh my god.” I was so terrified. I just had no clue. This didn't show up on the 20-week ultrasound or anything. She was like, “And your fluid is still super low.” We did an NST. They sent us home, and I was just waiting around at home with my husband for my midwife to call to make a plan. I was like, “Am I going back to work tomorrow? Am I going to be having this baby?” She called me, and she was like, “So, this isn't what I was expecting to tell you today, but I've been consulting with the neonatologist here and some OBs. Since you've already had your steroid shots, we want you to go to the hospital now to have your baby tonight.” She was like, “Don't rush down the highway in the snow. This is an urgent, not an emergent situation. You'll be in good hands.” I was like, “What in the world?” I was so taken aback. I didn't believe it. They were also transferring me to a different hospital from the one that I had worked at and had planned to deliver at. Meagan: Is it because of the NICU situation?Flannery: Because of the NICU, yeah. This bigger hospital had the capability for surgery, and my hospital did not. It was a situation where it was a small hospital and a situation that they weren't really comfortable with. We hopped in the car and drove through this big snowstorm. I was just crying and shaking. We had no idea. We were both terrified. We had no idea what we were about to walk into.When we met our OB, she walked into the room. She just radiated calmness and kindness and peace. She was just an angel. She made us feel so safe. They were monitoring the baby and putting my IV in. I was still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I was having a baby tonight. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: I was wondering, “Is this baby going to be okay? What is going on here?” We walked down the hall to the OR. I kissed my husband goodbye. I remember just thinking, “Okay. Here we go. There's no going back now.” The only way I could stay calm was to surrender any of the control that I thought I had and really just trust in God and trust in the people who were going to do the surgery on me. I lay down on the table and the anesthesiologist was so kind. He was petting my head and talking to me. My husband came in and they were setting up the drapes. My doctor who I had just met leaned her head over and she said, “This is where I had my first daughter.” That just made me feel so happy. Things are going to be normal again. She had a C-section too. It made me feel very safe. Everything went really well during the operation. I remember I could see the reflection of the operation in the lights that they have above you. I bet other moms will know what I am talking about, but they have these big OR lights, and I could kind of see what they were doing which was crazy.Meagan: You can. They're like mirrors. Flannery: I know. They should come up with something better. Meagan: Yes. For those who don't want to watch or see anything, just turn to the side. Flannery: Close your eyes. Meagan: Close your eyes. Turn to the side. Flannery: Yeah. They said, “After a few minutes, okay. Here he comes. Then he's out.” I didn't hear anything. I heard someone say, “Okay. I need to take him.” I could tell that was the neonatalogist saying they needed to work on him a little bit. They took him over to a corner where we couldn't see or hear anything that was going on. We could just hear people talking. Eventually, we heard a little cry. My husband started to cry. I looked at him, and I smiled. I just felt relief that he was alive, but I didn't feel anything. I just felt this nothingness. Meagan: I can so relate to that. Flannery: Yeah. It's so strange. It's just not what you're hoping to feel in this big important moment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flannery: I remember the neonatalogist after a while, he was breathing on his own. He had peed and pooped. They showed us pictures of him. She walked over with him in his arms in this little bundle of blankets. She stood pretty far away, maybe 6 or 10 feet away. She was like, “Okay. You know the plan. We need to check his kidneys in the NICU. What's his name?” I said, “I don't know. I need to see his face.” She flashed the blanket at me and flashed it down so I could see his face. I couldn't see anything. I said, “I don't know. I don't know what his name is,” and she walked out with him. That is just the worst memory from that whole experience. The surgery itself was really good. The care I had was great, but I'll never get that moment back. She could have brought him over to give me a kiss or see his face. It was hours until– Meagan: Touch or kiss his face.Flannery: It was so long until I could see him and meet him in the NICU. I just think about that all of the time. I did get to go meet him after a few hours. He was doing great. I didn't recognize him at first when my husband rolled me over to his isolet in the NICU which was hard, but as soon as I held him, I just had this overwhelming rush of love. It hasn't changed to this day. He's just such a joy.He turned out to be fine. His kidney was normal. It's resolved on its own, and it wasn't a cluster of cysts like they had thought. Meagan: Yay.Flannery: Yeah. He's doing great. He's a very rambunctious, very smart 2.5-year-old now. Meagan: Good. Flannery: Yeah. I'm so grateful that I have him now. I'm so grateful that I accidentally got pregnant with him.Meagan: Yes. He was meant to be, and he was going to make sure that he was.Flannery: He totally was. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: I'm sorry that you had that experience. I want to say it's unique, but it's not. That sucks. Flannery: It's totally not. Meagan: I hope that as people are listening, if they are in the birth world of labor and delivery nurses or OBs or midwives or whatever it may be, please be mindful of mom. Please be mindful of mom. Don't forget that she doesn't feel these things because does. She needs to see her baby. She needs to touch her baby. She needs to kiss her baby. If it is a true emergency, true emergency, understandable. But in a sense of this, it doesn't sound like it was a true emergency.Flannery: It wasn't. It wasn't. Meagan: They went over, and they took a lot of time with your baby, and then came and left. They didn't need to just come and leave. Flannery: Right, right. Especially when baby is breathing on its own and stuff, you can take 10 seconds to let mom give baby a kiss.Meagan: It will impact mom. Flannery: It totally will. Meagan: Here you are 2 years later still feeling mad. You're like, “I still think about that.” I saw it. I saw it in your eyes as you were telling that story. You feel that still. That's there. I hope that people can remember that protocols and what you think needs to happen and all of these things do not trump mom. Flannery: Totally. Totally. Meagan: Right. Yeah. So, having a NICU baby, how long– what was the exact gestation?Flannery: He was 35 and 5. Meagan: Okay, so it was a preterm Cesarean as well. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Did they have to do any special scar or anything like that because it was preterm? Flannery: No, thankfully not, but he was very stuck up in my ribs. He had the cord around his neck, and there was meconium. I know that he needed to come out that way because I don't think he could have flipped if they did an ECV. I don't know if he would have tolerated labor if he was head down even. Meagan: Yeah. That's definitely an early baby, but good that all is well for sure. Flannery: Yeah. He did great. It was a rocky start, but he's doing great now. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any advice for NICU moms listening? Flannery: Yes. There is this foundation that will pay for your parking costs while you're in the NICU. I didn't know about it in time. Parking can get very expensive when you are visiting your baby. If you just Google, “Parking Foundation for NICU parents,” I'm sure it will come up because I can't remember the exact name. Meagan: I'm going to look it up. I'm going to look it up while you start your next story. We'll make sure to have it in the show notes if I can find it. Flannery: Yes. Yes. Meagan: Okay, keep going.Flannery: My next pregnancy, I was determined to do everything right this time. I was like, “You know what? The last pregnancy was so rocky and so unexpected that this time, I'm going to do everything right, and therefore nothing can go wrong.” I think people have that feeling a lot which is so irrational, but we can't help it. I did go back to see my OB who delivered Freddy, my son. I just loved her. I thought she was wonderful. I just wanted to see what her opinion was about why I had those complications in my pregnancy and see what she thought about a VBAC because even though I wasn't sure if I could have a VBAC, I was interested in it. She listed out all of these rules that she had about VBAC, about, “You can't be preterm. You have to go into labor naturally,” and all of the things that you say are red flags on the podcast. Meagan: I'm like, all of the normal things, but they are all red flags. Flannery: Yes. I mean, I loved this doctor, and I think if I was going to have a repeat C-section, I would have gone back to her because she is awesome, but that wasn't the experience that I wanted to have this time. I did a little research, and I found this midwife practice that everyone recommended to me. I decided to go with them instead. This pregnancy was super uneventful. I was very conscious of taking care of myself and taking walks a lot and prenatal yoga and being on top of my vitamins and all of that sort of thing. I was very religious about positioning and Spinning Babies because I was like, “If I can just get my baby head down from the beginning, I think that I can do the VBAC,” because with a bicornuate uterus, you have less time to flip them, so with a normally shaped uterus, baby can flip up until the very last minute if they are breech, but with a bicornuate uterus, first of all, you have more of a chance of baby being breech and less of a chance for them to flip based on the shape of your uterus. There's just not as much room. I was trying to sit on my yoga ball and doing all of these stretches. I was thinking, “Gosh. This is so unrealistic. Who's not going to sit on their couch for 9 months? I have to be sitting on my couch. I can't be walking 3 miles every day,” but then I'd go back and forth in my head like, “Do you want a VBAC or not? You have to be religious about this.” You don't have to do everything I guess is what I'm trying to say. You'll try your best, but you have to do what's right for you, but you can't go to the extremes.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. With my second baby, I was doing the red raspberry leaf. I was doing the dates. I was doing all of the things, and even with my third baby, I was the one who didn't sit on the couch for 9 months. I still had a posterior baby. I will just say that I still had a posterior baby. I had a head-down, but still a posterior baby. Actually, he was still going breech too throughout pregnancy. Yes. He was such a stinker. But, I did do all of those things. I did the dates. I did the tea. I did all of it. For me, With my third, I had to dial back a little bit and say, “Okay. I'm going to do everything I feel is right for this pregnancy.” Dates wasn't one of those. I actually didn't do the dates thing. I know there is some evidence on that, but I just didn't do it. It didn't feel right to me, but I did other things like chiropractic care. I did drink tea. I hired a midwife and decided to go out-of-hospital and hired a birth team. I did birth education. I think the biggest thing is to do all of the things that stick out and call to you. There are so many things. We give so many tips. Some tips might not apply well to you. Walking 3 miles is a lot. Flannery: It is a lot. Meagan: It's a lot, but if you can walk a mile, that's better than not walking any. Flannery: Right. Meagan: Right? So trying to go and find what is sitting right for you in this pregnancy, this baby, and in this birth, and doing those things and then knowing you did all of the things you could that felt right for you. Flannery: Yes. Totally. I totally agree. Meagan: I knew I could do all of these things and baby might still be breech. Baby was breech at my anatomy scan, and then again at 28 weeks at my other growth scan. I remember going into the midwife and just saying, “What can I do?” She was kind of saying, “Nothing will supersede the shep of your uterus. You can do everything. Why don't you just visualize because at least then you will feel like you're doing something?” I was so mad after I left that appointment. I was like, “You can't tell me that I can't do anything to make this baby flip and that it's all down to the shape of my uterus.” I kept trying. I was 28 weeks and I was going to the chiropractor and acupuncture and inversions. This time, I was really good about the inversions even though it gave me heartburn. It worked. The baby did flip. I remember actually listening to a podcast episode from The VBAC Link, and it was about someone who was trying to flip a breech baby. She flipped her breech baby. I was like, “Okay. This gives me so much hope. I can do it.” It paid off because baby did flip. I was so happy. Yeah.At one ultrasound, they did pick up an issue with the kidney. I remember being so upset because it was the same issue that my son had, but very mild. The baby had been breech at that point. I was like, “I'm trying so hard. I'm doing everything right, and it's not working.” History is just repeating itself. That's what it felt like to me, but we ended up finding out that the kidney resolved at the next ultrasound and the baby had flipped. It was like, “Oh, my prayers are being answered.” I couldn't believe it. I was so happy when we got the results from that next ultrasound.We just continued doing the prep. I had planned. I was planning to deliver in the hospital. I had a doula who was amazing. She was just with me every step of the way talking me down when I was anxious and telling me all of the different things I could try and come up with plans for repeat C-section or vaginal birth. I had really wanted to go without the epidural because I didn't mention this, but I had gotten a spinal headache from my spinal last time, and that was just awful. It was almost worse than the C-section pain. Meagan: I've actually heard that because nothing really takes it away full-on. Flannery: Yeah, except lying down. Meagan: Lying down, yeah.Flannery: I was trying to visit my baby in the NICU. I couldn't just be lying in the hospital bed all day. So I was like, if I can avoid an epidural just so that I don't even have the chance of having a spinal headache again, that's what I'm going to do.I was reading Ina May. I was watching all of the YouTube videos and doing everything that I could, but it got to be a lot. It got to be like, oh my gosh, so much work to prep for this birth. The whole time, you don't know if it's a given if you're going ot get that VBAC.Meagan: I know. Flannery: Sometimes, it can feel like, why am I doing this?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. It is hard because we don't know until it's done. Flannery: Exactly. Until it's 100% over. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: Yeah, so you know, 37 weeks came. 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I was feeling overdue basically since 35 weeks. Meagan: I'm sure. I bet you were like, “I don't know how much longer I can go.” Flannery: I mean, I was definitely hoping to make it to term this time and I was so happy that I did. It was a big, big moment when I hit that 37-week mark, but then I just kept going and going and going. I was like, “Am I ever going to go into labor? What am I doing wrong?” I was walking. It was the end of July and it was so hot out. It was hard to get out there and walk. I eventually hit my due date which was July 25th. I got a membrane sweep on that day which was not super fun. It made me lose my mucus plug and have a few cramps, but nothing else. I was very hopeful that it would kickstart labor, but it did not. Eventually, I thought, “I just have to let go. The baby will come. You might have to have an induction, but you just have to relax.” Finally, finally, 5 days after my due date, which I know is not that long, but it felt long. Meagan: It feels long. It feels long when you are almost 6 weeks after you had your first baby.Flannery: Yes, exactly. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this period cramp feeling. I was like, “Oh my god. Is this it? Am I in labor?” I managed to calm down and go back to sleep. I put my hand on my belly and was like, “Am I going to get another cramp?” They came, and they came, and they started coming every 20 minutes. Eventually, I had to wake my husband up because it was pretty painful at that point. Maybe 2-3 hours in, I squeezed his hand. He was still sleeping, and he was like, “What's going on?” I was like, “I think I'm in labor.” He said, “I was having a dream that your water broke.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. You guys were both willing it in.Flannery: Yes, exactly. It was like we were on the same wavelength. The contractions kept coming, but they just felt like mild period cramps. I had a midwife appointment at 8:15. They said to go in to see if I was in early labor. She checked me and said I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and almost completely effaced. She said, “Your cervix feels labory.” I said, “I think that today is the day.” I was convinced it was prodromal labor or going to fizzle out or something. We went all the way back home. My plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and have my doula come over. I said goodbye to my little 2-year-old. My mom was taking him to hang out with her while we were in the hospital, and I remember she had him say to me, “Good luck, and be strong.”The sound of his little voice saying that to me literally just sustained me through the entire labor. It was replaying in my head in the hardest moments. I could just hear him saying that and it meant so much to me. Yeah. We just hung out at home. I was getting pretty irregular timed contractions. I was wondering why they weren't getting closer together because sometime they would be close together. Sometimes they would be spaced apart, but they were definitely getting stronger. I got in the bath or the shower. I was leaning over, and swaying and moaning, doing all of the things that you're supposed to do– the low-toned moaning and the breathing. I eventually had my doula come over after one really bad contraction. I was like, “What's going on? Why isn't it picking up? Why aren't they getting closer together? Should I go to the hospital? What's going on?” I was really afraid of the car ride because it was about 40 minutes in the car. She said, “I think what is happening is that you have this mental block about the car ride,” because this whole time, I was like, “What if I have the baby in the car? What if I have the baby in the car?” I heard a lot of stories about car babies, and I actually recently had a patient who had a car baby at work. She was like, “I think you have this mental block, and once you get to the hospital, your body is going to let you get fully into labor. So I do think you could go.” I was like, “Okay, okay. Let's go.” I called the midwives and let them know we were coming. My favorite, favorite midwife was on, the one I had hoped this whole time was going to deliver my baby.She was only on for a 12-hour shift, and it was already halfway through her shift. I was like, “Oh gosh. I'm glad she's going to be there.” We drove to the hospital. It was this very hot, very bright, and humid day. I was like, “I don't want to be here. I just want to be in a cold, dark room.”I remember as we turned onto the street that the hospital is in and pulled in the driveway, my contractions boom, boom, boom were ramping up. I was like, “Ashley (my doula), you are so right. This is exactly what happened.” I got into triage. I was making a lot of noise. It was very intense at that point. They checked me. I was 4 centimeters and 100% effaced. I wasn't too disappointed that I wasn't further along because I was like, “This feels pretty intense. I think things are really happening.” But they said, “You picked a very popular day to give birth. There are no rooms available on labor and delivery.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: What?Flannery: I was especially nervous because working in the field, I've seen how a busy unit can really affect the care that is given. It shouldn't be that way, but it totally is. Meagan: It's the reality sometimes. Flannery: Yep. My sister-in-law had recently given birth on a very busy day. She had a very difficult birth, and a very not attentive staff, so that was one of the things I was really afraid of is that I was going to give birth on a super busy day, but my care was excellent thankfully. We eventually waited in triage for a room to be ready, and it was a tub room that became available. There was one tub room in labor and delivery. I was so excited to get in that tub. I jumped right in as soon as we got there. Not jumped, waddled right in. It felt so good. The water felt amazing, but I did find it very hard to maneuver and get in the right position to work through a contraction in the tub because it was weirdly shaped. I didn't stay in there super long, but I was very surprised at how intense the contractions were which sounds silly, but they just really took over. I was hoping to use some coping techniques like music or my rebozo. I brought my massage gun. I brought this whole toolkit of stuff, but in the moment, all that was going through my head during a contraction was cursing and, “I need the epidural. I need the epidural.”I was squeezing my husband's hand so hard. My doula had this spiky, silver ball that you could use for counterpressure so I was squeezing that in my hand so hard breathing. I labored on the toilet for bit. I was in the bed. I was moving around. I could not be lying down. They were having to use continuous monitoring which I didn't really mind. The nurse was very good about not being intrusive about that. She would just follow me around with the monitor. The midwife, who I was hoping to have, was just there with me the whole time. She was holding the monitor onto my belly and speaking kind words to me. I remember going through this terrible contraction and looking over at her. She is just sitting serenely in her rocking chair just looking at me. In my head, I was like, “How can you be so calm? Help me. Do something.” Meagan: I can relate. Flannery: Being present. Meagan: Do something. Help me.Flannery: Help me. Help me. Meagan: Sometimes just being present is what you needed. Flannery: It is. It totally was. She was super hands-off, but in the moment, you're like, “Come on. Somebody do something to help me.” Eventually, I was just sitting on the toilet. The midwife had dimmed the lights. My husband was there speaking to me. I had been making these very loud moans through each contraction, and then during one of them, I started grunting, and I knew exactly what that meant. I was pushing involuntarily. I had been hoping to feel the fetal ejection reflex, and I think that's what this was because my body completely took over. There was no way that I could have not pushed during these contractions. The pain of the contraction was so intense, but it would go away when I pushed. Then I would just feel this really uncomfortable pressure, but at least the pain of the contraction was going away. I had been pushing for maybe 5 minutes, and my midwife was all excited. I was like, “Okay. Please, can you check me?” She was like, “No, just go with your intuition. Listen to your body.” I was like, “No. I need you to check me.” I did not want to be pushing on an incomplete cervix. She did, and I was a 9 and 100% effaced. She was like, “Okay, you can definitely push. That cervix is just going to melt away.” Yes. I tried the nitrous while I was pushing, but I really hated how it restricted my breathing. It also made me throw up everywhere. Meagan: Really? Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Interesting. Flannery: Yes. So much puke. It was so embarrassing. It was splashing on everyone's shoes. I was like, “Oh my god. I'm so sorry.” I pushed on the toilet for a little bit, and then I moved over to the bed. I went over to the bed because when I was on the toilet, I felt something coming out between my legs. I reached down, and it was the bubble of amniotic fluid. It hadn't popped yet. Meagan: Your bag of waters, yeah. Flannery: My bag of waters was coming out. I think I said to my husband, “Do you want to touch it?” He was like, “No.” Meagan: It just feels like a water balloon.Flannery: It felt exactly like a water balloon. I went over to the bed. I got on my side, and I was pushing so hard just totally going with my intuition, but it wasn't the type of peaceful breathing that people tell you to do like the J breathing or anything. There was no way I could breathe through these contractions and these pushes. I was totally holding my breath and bearing down, but that's just what was right for me in the moment. They were saying, “Can you feel the baby moving down?” I was like, “No. Not at all.” I think that's because the bag of waters was still intact. I couldn't feel anything except this really uncomfortable pressure. They said, “Put your fingers inside of yourself and see if you can feel a baby's head.” I put my fingers past the bag of waters, and I could feel the baby's head right there. I pushed, and I could feel the baby move down. It was the most incredible, coolest moment of the birth. I loved that. My midwife said, “Okay, baby's definitely feeling the squeeze.” Her heart rate was going down a little bit. She said, “Turn onto your left side, and with this next contraction, let's have the baby.” I pushed as hard as I possibly could, and just felt this release of pressure. I had no idea what was going on, but I had this cold cloth over my face so I couldn't see anybody, but I heard cheering. Then I felt this warm, wet baby come up onto my belly. I was laughing and crying, and everyone was saying, “Yay! You did it!” I was just like, “Oh my god, what happened?” Meagan: Just like that.Flannery: It was surreal. It was incredible. She started crying right away. We didn't know she was a girl. My husband looked down between her legs. We both looked at the same time and said, “It's a girl.” I said, “I knew you were a girl.” She just stayed with me the whole time right onto my chest. It was just the best feeling. I was so, so overjoyed. Meagan: That is so amazing. It's so amazing with VBAC how the whole room sometimes can just erupt with joy and, “You did it!” and screams and joyful laughs. Oh, man. Flannery: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was so, so intense in a way that I hadn't been expecting it to be. It was a calm, beautiful birth, but the intensity of the contractions and the way that my body completely took over, and I was just along for the ride. I was just riding the waves. It was crazy. Meagan: Truly riding that wave. We talk about it in HypnoBirthing and riding the wave, but that wave came over, and like you said, your body was just like, “Okay, I've got this. Let's go.” Here you went, and this baby came out pretty quickly it sounds like.Flannery: Yeah, she was born at 7:23 PM. I had felt my first contraction at 2:00 AM or something. It wasn't the shortest labor, but once I got to the hospital, it was 5 or 6 hours. It was pretty quick in the end there. She came out en caul. Her head did. Meagan: She did?Flannery: As her body came out, it popped, so she was almost en caul I guess which I thought was so cool. Meagan: Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. I love that. I've seen a couple in my doula career, and it is so cool-looking. A lot of people have said, “Oh, vaginal birth can't have encaul babies.” Oh, yes they can. Yes, they can. 100%. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: I love that you had mentioned, “Once I got to the hospital–”. Sometimes I've had this with doula clients where I'm noticing this pattern of inconsistency and a lot of the times, the client is saying things like, “Should I go? Should I go? Is it okay to be here still? How much longer should we stay?” They are saying these questions because inside, there's a lot going on. I had a client where I said, “You know what? I think we should go. I think you are going to feel safer there. It seems like you are going to feel safer there.” The second we got there, things ramped up. Doctor didn't even make it. The baby slipped out on the bed. Seriously, the second she got there, her body released. It was almost like her epidural. Sometimes, with an epidural, we get an epidural and our body is able to relax. If our mind is not confident or comfortable, we can't let our bodies sometimes. So I love that you pointed that out. I wanted to talk a little bit more really quickly on the types of uterine abnormalities or different types of uteruses. As she was saying, you have a bicornuate uterus which means it's a heart-shaped uterus. I'm probably going to butcher these names especially if you are a provider and you are listening. I don't really know how to say these words. There's an arcuate uterus which is similar to a bicornuate uterus, but with less of a dip in the heart shape. It's like an oddly shaped heart. It's asymmetrical in my mind. That's how I envision it. There's an arcuate uterus, which means there's a divide down the two parts of the membrane wall. Then there's a unicornuate uterus, which is when the fallopian tube has an irregular shape to it. Then I always butcher this one. It's didelphys. I don't even know how to say it. Flannery: Sorry. I can't help you on that one. Meagan: I'm going to stop trying. That is when you are born with two uteruses which does happen. One baby can be in one uterus, and we can have another uterus over here. Those are all abnormalities of the uteruses. Of course, we have different shapes, sizes, and all of the things. I wanted to just have a link in the show notes for that as well so you can read more on each of those types of uteruses. Then tell me if this is the right link. I found Jackson's Chance Foundation.Flannery: Yes. That's what it is. Meagan: Why parking matters. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: It looks like this is inspired. It's a foundation inspired by another person's story, another NICU baby's story. It said that–Flannery: Yeah. I believe that Jackson's parents set it up. Meagan: Yeah. Wow. This story is precious and inspiring. Wow. These parents are incredible. Then it does show that you can donate or sponsor a parking pass. They talk about the why and all of that. This is so awesome. I'm going to make sure that we have that in the show notes. If you know a NICU baby, or you know someone who is going to have a NICU baby, don't be like Flannery and find out later. This is how we all learn, and this is how. We find out when it's too late, then we have to go to show on. So, thank you for sharing that tip. I've actually never heard of it, but that's probably because I'm not a NICU mom.Flannery: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it helps someone. Meagan: Yes. Thank you again so much for sharing your story.Flannery: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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One of our team members, Paige, joins us today to share our first maternal assisted Cesarean story on the podcast! Our favorite Julie joins too sharing her perspective as Paige's birth photographer. Paige tried three times to have the vaginal birth of her dreams. Each time ended in emergency Cesareans due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Each time, she missed the golden hour that she so desperately craved. Each time, she learned more and more about birth.With her fourth baby, she exchanged her VBAC dream for a new one. After hearing about maternal assisted Cesareans, she decided to do all she could to pursue one fully knowing it may not happen. But when it did, it was everything she hoped it would be and more. Paige's Full Birth VideoHoum ClinicDayana Harrison Birth ServicesJulie Francom Birth PhotographyYouTube Video: Maternal Assisted Caesarean Section - The Birth of Betty MaeThe VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220: Dr. Natalie Elphinstone & MACsThe Birth Hour Episode 875: Nicole's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in MichiganBaby Baking & Kid Raising Podcast Episode 6: MACs with Lauren BrentonAustralian Birth Stories Podcast: All Maternal Assisted Cesarean EpisodesYouTube Video: Nottingham University Hospitals Maternity Gentle C-sectionCBAC Support Facebook Community How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Oh my gosh, you guys. Today is a very special day. It's a very, very special day. We have our own team member, Paige. If you guys haven't already seen the video floating around, go to Instagram today and watch what we've got posted. We have Paige, and we have Julie, and they are actually in Korea. Now, Paige lives in Korea. Julie flew to Korea to be the photographer for Paige. I was over here in Utah having FOMO as they were Marco Poloing me when she was in labor. You guys, I am so excited. I can't explain to you the love that I have for Paige. She has been on our team for so many years. I'm getting emotional. I have seen this woman transform into the most amazing, strong individual. She has created something so special for her family, and I think, for Korea. This is our first official Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast. Seriously, my eyes are all watery. I just cannot wait to hear this story. Julie was just saying how she's been dying wanting to call me this week while she has been in Korea, but she didn't want to share her story because it is Paige's story, but I love that I get to have both of them on the show. So hello, you guys. I'm sorry. I just am rambling. Paige: Hi. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. We have Paige. We have Julie. You guys know who they are. Julie, obviously, has been with The VBAC Link for a long time, and so has Paige.Julie: Been with The VBAC Link for a long time? Yeah.Meagan: Yeah, sorry. You created it. Julie: We created it. Meagan: Yeah, sorry. I'm thinking of Paige. Paige has been with The VBAC Link for a long time. If you didn't know, she actually heads the CBAC group, the CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and she transcribes all of these incredible episodes. So thank you, Paige, and welcome everybody.Paige: Thank you. So yeah, I'm just sitting here in my little corner of The VBAC Link team doing my transcribing which I feel like maybe is just a little drop in the birth world bucket until something more happens for me. I've been with The VBAC Link for the last 4 years, and I feel like it's my way of preserving these stories. Spending time with the women on the podcast is such an honor, and it's just one of my favorite things to do. I've learned so much, and truly, we'll get into it, but I wouldn't have had this birth experience in the same way if it were not for The VBAC Link and for being on the team. So truly, thank you to both of you. You've changed my life. All right, what's that?Meagan: I was going to say that you've made our life better. Paige: Aw, thank you.Julie: Yes, absolutely. It is so cool to see this. Me and Paige were just talking last night about this and how it's kind of a full-circle moment. We were going over her other births and how we got here and how she got here. It's just so cool. I am so thrilled about how everything played out. There were so many little miracles. I think miracles is not the right word. There were so many special blessings and things that led her to this point. I cannot wait to hear all of it from her perspective. It's so fun to be here and share on the podcast and really, this story is going to change lives. It's going to change lives. It's going to change birth. It is going to be something that people talk about and use as inspiration and hope as they prepare for their own births, no matter how they birth because there's a lot of advocacy involved. I think that's the biggest thing. There's a lot of advocacy. Paige did a lot of advocating for herself and what she wanted. It doesn't have to be literally the same way that she birthed for anybody to take inspiration from it, so I would just encourage everybody to listen because she is such a good example of fighting for what she wants, and shifting and rolling with the punches. I am just so inspired by Paige. You mentioned it too, Meagan. I am just so inspired by how she has approached all of this. Yeah, there are lots of life lessons. Lots of life lessons in this birth. Meagan: Yes.Julie: Stay tuned, everybody. It's a good one.Meagan: All right, Ms. Paige. We're turning the time over to you. Let's hear it because I cannot wait. Paige: Okay, so I'm going to start with a brief overview of my first three births. I'm a mom to four boys. I never thought that would be my story, with four C-sections. I never thought that would be my story, but it is, and it's beautiful. For my first birth, I got pregnant in September 2015. We were living in Hawaii at the time, but moved to Lawton, Oklahoma. I received prenatal care there at the Army hospital. It was pretty straightforward, just the What to Expect When You're Expecting type prep. They have this program called the New Parent Support Program which is really great for new families.  A nurse comes to your home, educates you, and gives you resources. I did that. That was really nice. I had a friend who was a doula. We took a hospital childbirth class and watched things like The Business of Being Born, but other than that, I was mostly just really afraid of childbirth in general. I was afraid of dying. I just wanted to survive. I didn't really have any specific birth preferences. I have struggled with anxiety and panic attacks throughout my life, so I thought that if I could just survive, that would be a big win. My OB was a family friend, and I felt very safe with him. He had a great bedside manner. I didn't really push any questions. I just trusted him fully and completely. At 34 and 6, I noticed that I started leaking fluids. My New Parent Support Program nurse had advised me that if I had noticed any kind of new discharge or anything like that– colorless, odorless fluid to go and get it checked out immediately. So I did. My husband drove me. I remember I had not eaten lunch, but it was lunchtime. I was like, “Oh, just drop me off. This will be fast, then we will go get lunch.” The midwife there tested the fluids and confirmed it was amniotic fluid. I remember my OB walked in. He said, “You are leaking amniotic fluid. We need to have this baby today. The baby will be fine at 35 weeks, and it's better for the baby to come than for you to stay pregnant basically and risk an infection.” So I was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I trust you.” I got a steroid shot for lung development at 35 weeks. Then they started me on an IV with antibiotics because I didn't have my GBS test back yet. Then he also told me that the Army hospital there did not have a NICU to support a 35-weeker and that I would need to be transferred to the civilian hospital in town. So I would have to be transferred. Since I was already on an IV, they were just going to do it via ambulance. It was my first time ever riding in an ambulance. He also said that he legally wouldn't be able to deliver me, but he would go with me and help me make decisions. That was really nice of him to go, but still just the sheer fact that I was going to be riding in an amublance for the first time, I was going to be having the baby that day, and then I was going to have a completely new doctor, was just sheer overload going into a birth that I was already afraid of. Yeah, it was not the best circumstances for a successful induction. I arrived at the hospital. I met the doctor very briefly. I called my doula friend. She came and helped me. We did what we could, but ultimately, my body was just not showing any signs of being ready. I had no contractions at all. I was completely closed and not even soft. No dilation. My cervix was just not showing any signs of progress. After about 14 hours on Pit, they came in. I remember I had the dull cramping from the Pit, but nothing really intense. I also just remember being so painfully hungry, and they wouldn't let me each. But since I hadn't had lunch, I was just so hungry where you get the body chills and stuff. Anyway, the doctor came in, said he was having decels. He recommended having a C-section because my water had been broken for over 12 hours. I consented. I was so afraid. I remember when they were putting in the spinal, I was just heaving sobs into this poor nurse. You go in and prep. The C-section itself was fine. My arms were strapped down. I didn't feel pain, but I remember it was like an elephant was sitting on my chest. It was like, “Oh, it just feels like somebody's sitting on my chest.” It wasn't horrible, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. But then, he was whisked away to the NICU. I briefly saw him swaddled with a hat on, then he was whisked away. No skin-to-skin for my husband or me, obviously. He was 4 pounds, 14 ounces at birth. They wouldn't let me go see him until I felt ready to go. I was just so swollen from all of the fluids. I was so nauseous anytime I would sit up. I just was not ready in any state to try to go walk or be wheeled to the NICU. Finally, 36 hours after delivery, I was able to meet him. We named him before that over FaceTime, but he was in the NICU for 7 days. I wasn't traumatized because I survived and that was my goal. I met my goal, and I was really proud of myself for facing the fear, but hoped for something different the next time. With the second birth, I got pregnant in July of 2017. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage early on that resolved. We were in Texas at the time. It was Fort Hood back then, but I met with many different OB providers at the Army hospital on base there. I felt okay with it because I had a neighbor who was going for a VBAC after two C-sections. She was really supported, and then she had a successful experience there. Because of my 35-week PPROM, they suggested that I go on the Makena progesterone shots once a week from 16 to 36 weeks. I did that. They worked very, very well. I switched to the midwife track because everything was going fine. The midwives were really great. They were really holistic. They supported inducing a VBAC if needed, but they also supported me going into spontaneous labor past 41 weeks. I made it to 41 and 5. The VBAC Link was not a thing back then yet, so I did not have that resource, but I did read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way. I read The Birth Partner. I kind of started dipping my toes into real birth education. I was learning about the physiological process of birth, learning how to do it without being afraid, and learning to trust my body. It was really empowering. It was the prep that I needed at that time. I didn't know about bodywork. I ended up having prodromal labor for about a week. It was pretty intense, but I didn't know anything about positioning, posterior, or Spinning Babies. I did find that out right at the end as I was going through it, but I didn't do chiro or any of that. I finally went in for an induction at 41+5 in April 2018. I ended up having to go with an OB on call because the midwife didn't feel comfortable with the NSTs that she saw, so she didn't want to take me on. I was like, “Oh, dangit.” The OB who was there was one who I wasn't really super comfortable with. But he was like, “Oh, well I know you really want a VBAC. We'll try to get that for you.” I was like, “Okay.”I got a Foley. I was barely a 1, but they got a Foley in and I progressed very quickly. I got to a 5 within a couple of hours. Things were going really great. They were very normal labor patterns. I felt like I was managing the contractions really well. I did consent to artificial rupture of membranes, then labored a little while longer. I got an epidural at 7 centimeters. I was told, “Oh, we just had a mom who got an epidural. She relaxed, and the baby came right away.” You hear that and you're like, “Oh, I want that. Yes.” So I did that. I got the epidural at about 6:30ish, and then between that half hour, his heart just wasn't doing well. They were flipping me. I got an amnioinfusion. I got a fetal scalp electrode. I got an IUPC, all the things. Then they gave me oxygen. It was probably about 7:00. He had a prolonged decel. I was lying flat and there were people all around me. The nurse was just like, “We need him now. Do you consent to a C-section?” I was like, “Yes.” Then I surrendered and let it go. I was like, “There goes the VBAC. This is just what needs to happen.” He was born at 7:09, and I was born under general anesthesia for that one. His APGARS were 8/9. My husband was left alone during that surgery. We do have pictures of him holding my son and doing skin-to-skin at 7:27, so about 20 minutes after he was born. I woke up and got to hold him at about 8:45, so about an hour and a half after he was born. I remember it was just really hard to talk after being intubated, but they let me breastfeed right away. I was disappointed, but I don't feel like I had a lot of trauma from that just because I was so empowered. I ended up ultimately making it to an 8. It was so fun for me to see what my body could do. I was like, “Oh, this just means that I was meant for a VBAC after two C-sections. That's what it meant.” Right then in the OR, or I guess it was the recovery room. I committed that that was going to be my story. I was like, “Oh yeah. That's just what it's meant to be. That's why it didn't work out.” I was so empowered. Then when I got pregnant for the third time in September 2019, we were in Germany. We had just moved there. I hit the ground running. I hired a doula right away and a backup doula. The prenatal care was at this small, tiny clinic in a town called Parsberg. I chose not to get progesterone shots. I was like, “I was 41+5. I think I'll be okay without them.” Yep, that's when I discovered The VBAC Link and all of the birth podcasts. I just became obsessed listening all the time, taking notes. I did the bodywork. I watched tons of birth videos. I did cranioscral therapy, chiropractic, and Spinning Babies. I took The VBAC Link Parents Course. I read lots of books. I switched my insurance. I took vitamins. I consumed it all, and I loved it. Every time I did something, I felt like my intuition was confirming that I was on the right path. I specifically would manifest, visualize, and pray, and I just was on this high every time. I feel like that's your intuition confirming to you that you're on the right path. If you feel those things, that's a good sign. You do want to follow that. Meagan: 100%. Paige: I did. Then, COVID. It was September 2019 when I got pregnant. Things were fine, fine, fine, and then COVID started happening. In March, I flew home to Denver to stay with my in-laws. We were supposed to move to Colorado in the spring anyway. My husband was not allowed to come with me. There was a travel ban for 90 days. I just did not want to get stuck in that, so I flew out very quickly with my boys– my two boys. I was 27 weeks pregnant and was living in my in-laws basement. That's a whole thing. COVID was a whole thing for everybody. But it was a scary time and stressful. I didn't know if my husband would be able to make it to the birth, but he was granted an exception to policy leave where he was able to come home. He would have to go back. That was the contingency. But I had rebuilt my team. I had found new bodyworkers. I found a new doula and a new backup doula. I found a team of midwives who were really VBA2C supportive. They were saying things like, “When you get your VBAC,” not if. They really supported all the things, so I felt really comfortable with them. I lost my mucus plug and had bloody show on June 8th. I was 40 weeks. That was my due date. My water broke that night at 11:00 PM. I had a small pop, so it was just a litte bit. I was laboring at home. Nothing really was picking up, but on June 9th, at 40+1, I went into the hospital around 3:00 PM. Labor started picking up pretty quickly after that. About an hour and a half later, my waters gushed everywhere which was really thrilling for me to experience the big gush. I was not very far along, though. My progress is just very slow, but they were not rushing me at all. They were like, “We'll stay patient. We will stay very patient. There is no rush. As long as baby is doing well, we'll just let you do your thing.” My doula was there. After my waters broke, my contractions started coupling on top of each other and getting very intense. They were quite long. I started feeling really lightheaded and dizzy. I tried to sit on the toilet and just felt like I was going to pass out. I threw up a few times. I knew it was time to get some pain relief. They offered the walking epidural option which I took at about 8:00 PM. Baby was doing great. I was really worried about getting the epidural again because I felt like that's what had caused the craziness before, but he was doing great. At 2:00 AM, he started not doing great. He wasn't tolerating the contractions well. I was like, “Oh, not again. What?” I was only 4 centimeters. I just knew that we needed to go in again. I didn't know why, but I was so sad. I didn't want another crash, so I did want to prevent another crash. I knew that if it was going to be a heart thing, I didn't want to mess with that. Especially knowing the signs of pain and coupling contractions and things like that, it just seemed like he was telling me that he needed to come. I consented to the OR and to the C-section. I was wheeled to the OR. I remember as I was being wheeled in, I was just thinking, “This is not what I want. This is not what I want. This is not what I want.” I was so sad. He was born about an hour later. I was so drowsy. I was so tired. I was not present at all. I did not feel strong enough to hold him. My husband held him. I briefly brushed his face. He was wearing his little hat and was swaddled, then they took him to the recovery room. The doula was not allowed in the OR. It was actually a miracle she was allowed at all because they had just lifted the doula ban the week before for COVID. I was like, “Okay, the baby will be in there with her.” I'm not sure why they wouldn't let the baby just stay with Sam, but it's okay. I needed his support. I was really happy that he was there. Closure took longer than usual. They said I had pretty thick adhesions, so I was just laying there trying everything to stay awake. I was fighting so hard. I remember reading words on the light and looking at the letters and just going over the letters in my mind and trying to stay awake. I was fighting so hard to stay awake. I finally got to hold him at 4:00 AM in the recovery room. It was still about an hour after he was born. I missed the golden hour again. I was so sad. I was so sad for a third time to miss it. That recovery was really hard. In the hospital, I was so heartbroken. The trauma this time really hit me emotionally and spiritually. It was physically a lot more traumatic on my body for whatever reason. I mean, just the sheer labor was so intense. My incision was black and blue and puffy. I couldn't walk normally and I didn't feel normal for 5 or 6 weeks, but I also feel like it's because I was so sad. I think how sad you are really does affect how you feel physically. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Paige: I do remember specifically too, my first shower there. My husband had to really help me walk over. I was so sticky from all of the sensors and monitors. He was so tenderly trying to help me wash them off. I was just sobbing. I was so sad. I felt so broken and so vulnerable. It was a beautiful time for my husband to be there and carry me because he knew how badly I wanted the VBAC that time and for him to just carry me through that. But going home, I went home to my in-laws' basement. It was dark. I didn't have a support village because it was COVID. COVID moms know what that was like. Anyway, ultimately, I did reach out to Meagan and Julie. That's when the CBAC group was started. I was like, “Is there any way we could start a CBAC support group where CBAC moms can connect?” You guys were so warm and welcoming. Immediately you were like, “Yes! Why hadn't we thought of that?” Julie, you were so gung-ho about that. I was able to connect to other moms through there which was so healing. Anyway, that was the third story. Then the time between three and four was really, really pivotal for me. The healing that I felt I needed before even thinking about trying to get pregnant was where I feel like this all really starts. When you don't get the birth that you hoped for or when you don't get a VBAC, you just feel embarrassed. You feel ashamed. You feel broken. You feel like your intuition doubted you. You feel dumb. I've seen many women comment how family members would be like, “Oh, I knew it wasn't going to happen for you.” It's hard. It's really hard. You feel very, very broken.I knew that I had to show up for myself and still give myself grace. For this birth, it was good for me because I was able to face not failure, but being wrong. I was able to face being wrong and show myself that I could still be there. Anyway, I started physically diving into healing through pelvic PT and doing a lot of scar adhesion work. The dolphin neurostimulation tools if you haven't heard about those are fantastic. I feel like they worked much better for me than scar massage. I wish I had a provider here now who would do it. I think maybe that would have helped this pregnancy and birth, but it helped my recovery so much.I started having really bad panic attacks and postpartum anxiety, so I went to talk therapy. I got on medication. I went to a chiropractor again. The thing that really, really helped my healing was joining a gym and falling in love with exercise again. I got into all of the things, the yoga, running, learning how to lift, and started really pushing my body again and trusting my body again. I didn't expect exercise to heal that relationship with my body, but I feel like it really did. I learned again that I am physically strong which was really, really nice. I started signing up for some races. I ran my first half marathon. I had a lot of emotional releases during yoga. There was one song that came on one time during a yoga practice. It said, “You can't rush your healing. Darkness has its teaching.” I loved that so much. I just started crying. I was just like, “Let it out.”Part of healing is welcoming the grief when it comes, processing it, and taking it a little bit of a time. It's such a process. You get little glimmers of understanding, but as you keep committing yourself to looking for that and looking for the understanding, it does come. I truly believe that. Anyway, life went on. There is a four-year gap in between my third and my fourth which I really needed. We moved to Korea in that time. We moved to Korea last June, and it's just been lovely. We knew that we wanted one more. I knew I was so happy with the prep and how vigorously I did it. I was proud of myself for that and I knew that I wanted to do it the same way.I knew that after everything I learned, even if it was going to be a C-section, I couldn't just show up to the hospital and have them take my baby. I knew too much. I was like, “I know that there are better ways. I know that providers practice differently from place to place. I know it's not all equal. I know every provider does things differently, even with C-sections.” I started watching videos, and I saw that even the way they performed their C-sections was not the same. I wanted to be really actively involved in how they practiced, and how I was going to be a part of it. My goals for this time were not necessarily VBAC or C-section. I never closed the door completely. I was like, “You never know. Maybe VBA3C, maybe that's my story. Who knows?” However, I did find the episode by Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. As I was transcribing that one, my fire for birth that I held felt for VBAC was coming to life again. That intuition was speaking to me, and I had not felt that fire in a long time. That was the first whisperings of, “You should try this. You should go for this.” The goals that I had for this baby were to be very intentional. I wanted the golden hour. I had to have the golden hour. I had to hold my baby first or within an hour. Please, oh my gosh. I carried so much guilt for not having that three times over. I also wanted to be treated like I mattered. I did not want to be part of a rotation. I wanted continuity of care. I did not want to feel like I was just being shuffled through a system. Whether it was a hospital or not, I knew that I wanted to feel special. Lo and behold, did I know how special I would feel at my sweet birth center. Okay, so with the intention thing, just the pieces of this birth story with number four started falling into place so specifically. I can't deny that spirituality was a big part of this because with number three, my prayers had been very, very specific. I knew that God knew what I wanted. I knew it. I knew that because I didn't get it, there was a specific reason why. That's the only thing I could cling to. As things specifically started falling into place, it started to confirm to me that this was my path and these were the reasons why the other things happened the way they did. But anyway, I got pregnant very quickly with this baby. It was the first time that it wasn't a total surprise which was really fun. I had been taking tests since I knew the day that I ovulated, and then I was just taking tests watching, watching, and watching. I was able to see the first faint line which was so fun. I had always wanted that. I had wanted that moment of, “Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant,” where before it was like, “What? I'm not quite ready,” but I was still excited. That was really fun for that. The Korea birth culture here is very intense. The C-section rate is 50-60%. There are constantly stories being shared on these local pregnancy pages of women just having the most traumatic experiences and my heart aches for them. It's very routine for doctors to suggest first-time moms to, “Go have a C-section. Your baby is big,” and not even trying to labor. Most of it is because there is a doctor's strike going on here. There is a limited number of providers. They are stressed. They don't allow husbands typically in the OR, and very routinely, they are under anesthesia. Then after birth, babies are typically taken away to nurseries, and then postpartum recovery is in an open bay type thing. Meagan: Like, combined? Paige: Exactly, yeah. Your C-section stays are typically about 8 days. I wanted to explore options. We have an Army hospital here that is pretty big and does provide labor and delivery services, but they're often maxed out so you're referred off post. I did not feel comfortable going to any of the places that they typically referred to just from stories I had heard. That's all it takes for me now. I just hear one story and I'm like, “Nope, no thank you.” I know my red flags very quickly now. I went to a tour at this birth center called Houm. It's spelled H-O-U-M. At 8 weeks, I went to go tour it. I noticed a lot of green flags, not red ones where I was just like, “Oh, I'm just going to take a note of that.” Some of the green flags from my tour as I walked in were how I felt right when you stepped off the elevator. It's this calm energy. The lighting is so beautiful. It's such a lovely set up right when you walk in. You take off your shoes because you are in Korea. You take off your shoes, then multiple staff members greeted me with a hug. That's when I met Dayana Harrison who I later ended up hiring as my doula, but she also served as my midwife. She is a student midwife working there right now. She took me on the tour. They have queen-sized beds in their labor rooms. The whole floor was dim and so quiet. It did not have a hospital vibe at all, but they do have an OR on site. I was like, “Oh, this is lovely.” They offer epidural. They have huge birthing tubs with the rope attached from the ceiling. They are so beautiful. Yeah, it's in each room. Then the OR on site does not feel like a hospital OR. It's smaller. They keep it warmer. It feels like– I don't know. It just had such a homey feeling. That's the best way I can describe it. Then some of the things I asked about, in their routine gentle Cesareans, moms routinely get skin-to-skin immediately. They have a little cut open in the curtain where baby is slid through right on your chest. They routinely would keep the placenta attached to the baby in the OR which is–Meagan: Almost not heard of. Paige: Since posting that video, I can't believe how many messages of, “How did you do that?” That's revolutionary in itself. That was a huge green flag where I was like, “Oh my gosh, what?” Typically, what is it? Why do they say you can't do that? Is it because the incision is open too long?Meagan: Yeah. They don't even allow delayed cord clamping most of the time. They just milk it because it's a major surgery. The more time the mom is exposed and open, the higher chance they have of things like infection. Once baby is out, they really want to wrap it up and finish it to be complete. Yeah. To actually leave a placenta attached to a baby is unheard of. It really is unheard of in a Cesarean. Paige: Yeah. So that was super awesome. Then they let you keep the baby. He encourages C-sections past 39 weeks. That's not a routine hard and stop final date. He encourages going into labor before saying that it's good for the baby. He encourages breastfeeding in the OR. The head OB, his name is Dr. Chung. He is also an IBCLC which I thought was so awesome. So he supports breastfeeding.Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. The more I learn about this man, the more I love him. Paige: Did you not know that?!Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I want to meet him. Julie: I want to put him in my pocket and take him with me to deliver every birth I ever go to ever. I love him. Paige: I've literally said the exact same thing, Julie. I wish I could just keep him with me forever. That's the thing. Throughout this whole process, I kept taking note of these green flags. I'm thankful for my other experiences because I don't think a lot of people recognize how green these flags really are. I was like, “Okay, the shoe's going to drop. The shoe's going to drop. There's something.” I'll keep going.Meagan: Can I mention too? You had Marco Polo'd me, “I'm on my way,” then you would leave, and you were like, “This is amazing.” You were just like, “This is right,” every single time. The more you went, the more it verified that you were in the right place. Paige: Yep, yeah. You just know. When you know, you know. During that appointment, he came specifically and talked to me three times. Three times. He shook my hand. I'm like, “Are you not busy? What? Three times, you have time to see someone who is just touring?” He only sees 15 patients. He is very VBAMC supportive and experienced with it. He supports vaginal breech birth. They do ECVs on-site. I didn't even bring up VBAC after three. I just mentioned that I had three C-sections, and he said something like, “Oh, do you want a VBAC? Do you want to try again?” I was like, “Oh, I mean, I don't know. I'm thinking about it.” Then, he made me cry. This was at the tour. He made me cry because he said, “I'm a different doctor because I listen to moms. I listen. They tell me how they want to birth. If you want a VBAC after three C-sections, I will support you. You can do it. You choose how you want your birth to go and I will worry about the bad.” He was like, “You don't need to worry.” I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I started crying. I was like, “Okay, I'm going to go now.” I was not composed, and then he hugged me. I was like, “What? Who is this guy?” I didn't just jump over there. I did give the Army hospital a chance. I went to a couple of appointments there, and that was kind of all I needed to know for what I wanted. I'm so thankful they are a resource there. I'm thankful that they are here. But I did ask about their routine Cesarean practices and their VBAC practices. It was important to me to find a doctor who supported VBAC even if that wasn't what I was planning to go for. I still love VBAC so much. I think it's so beautiful and such an important option for women to have. I'm so passionate about it. I always will be. They didn't even humor the idea at all of VBAC after three. They were like, “Oh, no. You're going to have a C-section. Of course.” The idea was laughable. The C-sections only allowed one support person, no breastfeeding in the OR, no photographers. Arms are strapped down. I just was like, “Okay.” I was very gently asking questions, but then was like, “Uh-uh. Red, red, red flags.” My biggest piece of advice, and we say this over and over again, is to find a provider whose natural practices align with the things that you want. Julie: That is it. That is it so much. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt again, but let's put bold, italics, emphasis, and exclamation points on what you just said. Say it again. Say it again for the people in the back. Paige: Find that provider whose routine practices align as closely as possible with what you want. Julie: Preach, girl. Preach, girl. I love it. Paige: Because we're not meant to fight. You do not want your birth experience to be a place of fighting or stress. Julie is learning that I am a people pleaser. I'm not anything special. I did not stand my ground. I'm going to do this. I did not come blazing in. I found a provider who I felt very, very safe with, who I felt safe asking for this from, and he said yes. I knew that because his practices were so close to the MAC, he would be the most receptive. But there's a chance that he wouldn't have been, and he was. That's why ultimately it worked out because he was receptive. I couldn't have forced him to do it, but because he practices closely to it already, it wasn't as much of a push. If I tried to go to that Army hospital and introduce this idea, they'd just shut it down. Meagan: You know, that's what is so heartbreaking to me. Providers all over the world really just shut that down if it doesn't match their normal routine and their everyday thing. It's like, well, hold on. Let's listen. Why are people requesting this? Just like Dr. Natalie, she saw this and was like, “This is something that means something to people. Why don't we change the norm and create something different?” Providers, if you are listening, please try and make change in your area because it matters, and it doesn't have to be exactly how it's been. Paige is living proof of this. It just doesn't have to be that. But we can't make change if no one puts forth the effort or allows it. Paige: Dr. Natalie said that exactly. She said, “Let's make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Paige: She said, “If there's a way to make it better, why not? Why not?”Meagan: Why not? Because like it or not, birth impacts us. It sticks with us. You're now explaining four different stories. It's not something we just forget. We don't just walk away from these experiences. They stay with us. Now, we might process and are able to move forward in a different direction, but it's not like we forget, so why can't we make this change? It actually baffles me. Julie: Well, and the mode of delivery is the same. I really want to emphasize that. She has had four C-sections, and they were all very different. But the only one where she left walking out of it really feeling empowered is the last one where she chose a provider who aligned with what she desired for her birth, she had a say in her care, and she felt loved and supported the whole way. She felt like the staff cared about her needs.But also, time out. She didn't just feel like the staff cared about her needs. They did. They did actually, genuinely care about her needs and her experience. I feel like that's such a big difference. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Sorry, Paige. You can continue. We got on a little soapbox. Paige: You're good.Julie: I feel like we're starting to tell the story before the story is told. Paige: No, it's great. We're getting close. I switched to them officially at 20 weeks. My first appointment was the anatomy scan. That's when I also proposed the idea of the MAC officially. After every ultrasound, he comes in, talks to you, looks at it, then you go into his office area where you just chat and ask any questions. That's just the routine setup of the appointments. I had this video prepared, and I was really nervous. It's scary. It is scary to ask your provider for something new and different. I had this video. It's on YouTube. It's by Olive Juice Photography. Everybody should go look at it. It's the birth of Betty Mae. It's the video that I watched over and over and over again because it's the only video I could find of the process from the beginning to the end including all of the prep and including how it was done. I was like, “I saw this online. I was wondering if you could watch it and tell me what you think.” That's how I presented it. It's a long video. It was like, 5 minutes. He just sat there patiently and watched. Then after, actually one thing he did say was, “I don't like how he's using forceps.” I was like, “Oh, green flag.” Then, he asked, “Is this what you want?” I said, “Yeah. I think it would be really special if it could happen.” Then, he said, “Then, we can do that.” Then, he thanked me for giving him the opportunity to grow and try something different. He said, “Will you email that video to me and any other resources?” I emailed Dr. Natalie, and she sent over a MAC PowerPoint that she had prepared of the procedures because from the episode, she was like, “Anybody interested doing this, reach out to me.” She is true to her word. She will do that. If you are interested and you want to contact her, she is very responsive. She sent me also her MAC hospital policy which I forwarded to him. I have to share what he said. He's so cute. In the email response, he said, “I watched the video you sent again. If necessary, we will contact Dr. Natalie to prepare for your perfect Cesarean delivery. Thank you so much for this great opportunity to serve you. I am excited to help your birth and confident it will be a great opportunity for further growth for us.” I was like, oh my gosh. Meagan: That literally just gave me the chills. Paige: I could not believe it. Dayana, who is also a student midwife there at home, told me that she had been planting seeds for maternal assist for a while. They had just been waiting for a mom to ask for it. That was also the time that I hired Julie. I was like, “Julie, that would be so fun if you could come out.” Then Julie was like, “Okay, let's do it.” Then I'm like, “Okay.” Then it happened, and Julie was just so brave to have the gumption to come out. Fun fact, she was previously stationed out here with the Army. It does seem like it all kind of worked out that Korea wasn't so out of touch for her, maybe. Julie: Yeah, no. It was really cool. You had mentioned it briefly, then I was like, “Oh, I wish I could make that work.” Then, I remember I was in the CBAC group. I was like, “Oh, I'm so excited for you,” or something, then you said something like, “I really wish you could come and document it. We would cover your travel out here and everything.” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, really?” So then I talked to my husband about it. I was going to be gone for a while. He would have to hold down the fort and everything. I talked to him and he was like, “Yeah, I think that would be okay.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, Paige. My husband is fine with it. Let's do this.” I remember the day that you booked my flights and officially signed my contract and locked in and everything, then I told my husband and he was like, “Oh, this is really happening then?” I was like, “Nick, I gave you the change. I gave you the chance to eject. It's too late now.” He's been doing really great. He's a really great dad. The on-call life means he has to just take over the house at random moments. We are set up to where we can do that. It was just really funny. I'm so excited that we could make it work. Paige: This is my public thanks to Nick and all of Julie's children for allowing her to be here because it did require sacrifice on their part, truly. I'm just so thankful. I also found out, Dayana told me that she had been asked to prepare a whole presentation for the staff on MAC which she did. She prepared it for nurses, midwives, and anesthesia walking them through. The fact that she had that connection to Houm and that experience, she served as my doula but so much more. She was so much more as my advocate having that inside access to the staff. We scheduled a surgical rehearsal for 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, this was one of my favorite things. He personally was there to walk me through every step of what it would look like for my security, but I don't feel like I really needed it because I was very, very familiar, but for the comfort of the staff and everybody else too. I got to the appointment. My husband was able to be there with me on that one. The way it's set up– we'll post our video then you can visualize more of what the layout looks like. There's the prep room, then literally 10 steps across is the OR right there. In the prep room, they had a gown ready for me. They had the washing bins ready. So the way that it works, you go in. You put the gown on. You have the IV. They showed me where they would place the IV. Then you scrub up your hands. You wash with the sterile solution, and then they put gloves on top. This was the way that they did it. Then they walked me into the OR. They showed me how I would go sit up on the table, how I would receive my spinal through anesthesia, then they practiced laying me back down. They did everything step by step. It wasn't new to me. I've had C-sections before, so I knew, but it was just so sweet that they were so thorough. They showed me how they would insert the catheter. He showed me exactly how he would lay the drapes over my body. He showed me when the curtain would go up. The way they do it, you're not just watching the whole thing the whole time. You could, I guess, opt for that if you wanted to. You have the drape up, they do the initial incision, get the baby out up to his head, and then they drop the curtain. That's when they pull your arms down. The other thing too, the reason why they do strap your arms down is in case you impulsively reach down and touch your incision and breach the sterile field. That's the reason why arms being strapped down is even a thing. But for MAC, your arms are not strapped down obviously. They have somebody holding their hand on your hands which I don't think I even had. Looking back, I don't remember anybody touching my hands or my arms. But that wasn't an issue. It wasn't something that I impulsively wanted to do, to reach down there. Anyway, then the drape goes down. They guide your hands up and over to put your hands under his armpits. Come up. Bring your baby to your chest. The curtain goes back up during closure, and then they talked about how I'd be transferred back to the recovery room– not the recovery room. No recovery room. You go to the postpartum room immediately. I felt on such a high after that. It was just so beautiful how he did that. At 38 weeks, I had an ultrasound. They do ultrasounds at every appointment. I don't know that there is a perfect practice out there that aligns with absolutely everything you want. But they do routine ultrasounds. I wasn't really concerned about that, but they did flag something called kidney hydronephrosis. It's basically the swelling of the kidney. They had been monitoring that. It had presented late in the third trimester, but it was severe enough that they were starting to get really concerned about it. Basically, it can mean that there is an obstruction, and if it's really severe, it can mean that the baby needs to be evaluated within 48 hours of birth by a pediatric urologist which clearly they don't have on site. It was a whole thing. If it really is severe and there is an obstruction, then they need to do surgery really promptly to prevent kidney damage early on. That was the thing. He did suggest that I could deliver somewhere else, and then the baby would be able to be there and we would be together in the same facility. That's when I felt like the shoe dropped. I was like, “Why would he suggest that? He knows that I would not want to deliver anywhere else. Why would he even bring that up?” I was all a mess. I was alone at that appointment. I felt a little bombarded and ambushed. I was like, “This isn't going to happen. I'm not going to get it.” That night, Dayana called me. I was getting ready to reach out to her, but she called me. She was like, “I just wanted to check in.” I had emailed Dr. Chung a clarification email. I think that's really important too. If something doesn't sit well with you in your appointment, it's okay to follow up in an email just to clarify what happened. Can you lay out these options? Can you lay out what we went through? Can I have a record of the ultrasound and what you saw? Because then you're not just swirling these things in your mind. You're actually looking, then you can do your own research. I dove into research. I dove into studies. I compared the numbers that he gave me versus what I saw, and it all did align. She called me and she was like, “No, don't worry. He is comfortable moving forward. He thought that you would be concerned, so he wanted to present you with more options to deliver somewhere else, but he is very happy to deliver you here still and sticking with our plan. He does want to see you at a follow-up ultrasound at 39 weeks,” which I was comfortable with. I was like, “Sam, you've got to come with me. I can't go alone.” She promised that she would be there. That's another thing. When you have a team that you trust, make sure that you are supported, and it's not just you and your doctor. If there's something that doesn't sit well, it really helps to field it with other people not just in labor, even in your prenatal appointments or anything like that. If you feel like you need some extra support, it does really help to bring some people with you who you trust. So at 39 weeks, we all met as a team and asked lots of questions. We felt comfortable with a care plan moving forward. We ultimately decided that we would move forward with the C-section at 39+5 which would be Monday. I'm trying to think what day that was. Meagan: The 7th. Paige: Monday, the 7th. Meagan: That's what I had in my calendar. Paige: Monday, the 7th was the day. We talked about moving it up. All his colleagues were like, “No, you should deliver this baby now. What are you doing? You're crazy keeping her pregnant.” I was like, “I am comfortable waiting, and I have to wait for Julie, so it can't be until Friday. It can't be until Friday.” She gets in on Thursday. That was Wednesday, at 39 weeks. Thursday was 39 and 1.Julie was on the plane, and then that morning on Thursday, I lost my mucus plug at about 8:00 AM. I was like, “Oh, no.” I wasn't really having contractions or anything, so I was like, “Okay. We'll still make it until Monday. It's fine.” Then, Julie got in at about 7:00 PM. I started having some baby contractions. We were sitting around my kitchen table, and Julie was like, “Are you contracting right now?” I was like, “A little.” She was like, “Go take a bath.” Then, we went to bed. I took a bath, and then I went to bed. I was for sure just contracting. I was like, “But what about these logistics? What is going to happen?” Anyway, my childcare plan was going to be turned upside down and all of the things. I was stressed about the logistics. But then, I was woken up at about 10:00 PM by contractions. They were about 6-7 minutes apart, but they were definitely real. I thought they were prodromal, so I was just waiting for them to just go away. They started getting closer. They were close enough to about 4 minutes and sometimes 3. I was having more bloody show, so I was like, “These are kind of doing something.” The intensity increased. It got to the point where I couldn't lie down. I was on my hands and knees. I was standing up, bracing myself against the wall. I was trying to do different positions. Maybe it was just a positional thing. “Let me try to do flying cowgirl. Let me try to do Walcher's”. I was trying to do different positions to try to stop them. I tried to take a bath at 3:00 AM, and they weren't going away. I was like, “Okay, I can't do this. I can't risk it. We've got to go.” I woke up my husband. I was like, “Today's the day. He's just telling me that it's the day. It's time. I don't know why, but it's Friday. It's supposed to be.” At 4:00 AM, he packed his bags. At 5:00 AM, I felt so bad because Julie had just gotten in from this huge international flight. It was a 12-hour flight plus some because you had a connection. I was like, “Julie, we're going to go,” she was like, “Okay!” She was so excited. “Okay, let's go!”Julie: I wake up to a knock on the door, and they're all dressed and ready to go. I'm like, “Why did she not wake me up sooner? I could have supported you.” Paige: I felt so bad. Julie: Yeah. It was wild. It was so wild. I was ready. It was awesome. Paige: So at 5:00 AM, we left for the birth center. At 6:00 AM, we got there. I messaged my team. Dayana said she was on her way. They led me to my room which is just a beautiful suite. It's right next to the OR. They led me to my room. They said that the anesthesiologist would be ready at about 10:00 AM, so between then, I would be laboring. Dr. Chung came in, and he said, “You need to be prepared for a VBAC to happen. You might have this baby just right here.” It was so funny that he was supportive of that idea even. It was so cute. I labored. It was getting intense, but they weren't super close together. Dayana came. She jumped in, and she immediately just respected the space which was so beautiful. She started doing all of her– she's a Body Ready Method practitioner. She's done some training with Lynn Schulte and the Institute for Birth Healing, so she's very familiar with the specific way to give you comfort measures. She was so great. I felt so safe. We labored, and my husband gave me a beautiful blessing. She said the more beautiful prayer that really invited heaven into the space and made it so spiritual and special. We were playing music, then at 9:00 AM, the head midwife, her name is Joy, came in. She started the IV.Dr. Chung came in and walked me to the prep room. In our rehearsal, I was going to be scrubbing myself, but he just picked up my hands, and he started washing my hands and scrubbing my hands for me. It felt like such a selfless act getting ready to go into this procedure. It felt like he was so respectful, and then I even had a contraction during the washing. He stopped what he was doing and was so respectful of the space. It just felt so Christlike having him wash my hands going into it. Then we walked into the OR, and they got me ready for anesthesia. They put in the spinal, and then they laid me down. They did the pinprick test. They gave me a new gown that was sterile. I'm trying to think of what else. They inserted the catheter. I could kind of feel a little bit with the pinprick test, but the catheter insertion was just pressure, so I felt comfortable moving forward. They got started. We played music. They had ice ready for me on my face because I told them when I get nauseous or anxious, I tend to get a little lightheaded. They had ice ready for me. That was something I had requested, and that was so nice. They started the surgery, and it was very, very intense. I do want to be candid that it was probably my most painful surgery. I had to work through it with labor-coping stuff. I was vocal. I did mention that I was feeling pain. It got pretty intense. I don't know if in Korea in general– I know that they are a little bit more stingy about anesthesia, but it was okay. I don't feel like I was traumatized from that. The baby came out at about 10:24. That's when they say he was born. We were listening to music. I was vocalizing, then Dr. Chung says– what did he say? “Let's meet your baby,” or “Come grab your baby”, or something like that. They lowered the drape, and it was so fast. I bring the baby up onto my chest, and everything just melted away, and this instinctual, primal– all of these emotions I didn't know I had just poured out of me. I lost any sense of composure that I had. I was shrieking. In any other situation, I would have been so mortified, but that moment of not having it three times over, it was this release and this justification or this validation of finally having it. I just got to hold my baby. I was a little nervous about seeing a new baby for the first time without being swaddled and how they would be wet and slippery, and if that would freak me out a little bit, but I wasn't worried about that at all. I was just so happy that I had him and so relieved. During closure, that was also intense too. They put the curtain up. They pulled out the placenta. They put it in a bowl, and then they put it in a bag, and they rest it right there next to you. The cord was so lovely and so beautiful. There is something about a fresh, new cord. It is so awesome to see. I thought it was the coolest. I had my husband. I was squeezing his hand. Honestly, I felt like having my baby in my arms and holding my husband's hand was the best pain relief. In that moment, it was keeping me calm, keeping me steady, and getting me through the closure and the rest of the surgery.Then they transferred me to my postpartum room, and they just let us be there. They didn't push cutting the cord. Dayana gave me a placenta tour. I was like, “When do we cut the cord?” She was like, “Whenever you want.” It ended up being about 2 hours of us just enjoying it and talking about how cool it was. Yeah. She gave us a tour. I was able to wear gloves and touch it and go through it, then Sam was able to cut the cord for the first time which was so awesome. That's the gist of it. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I started crying. I've gotten chills. I have so many emotions for you just watching your video. I've literally watched it 10, maybe 15 times, and I can't wait to see Julie's entire thing that she caught. But I am just so– there are no words. I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you, and I've talked to you about this. I've Marco Polo'd you crying before where I can't explain it. I am so insanely proud of you and happy for you that you got this experience. Thinking about, “I've never seen a gooey baby. I've never had that opportunity. My husband has never been able to cut the cord,” and you were able to have this beautiful experience where you got to have all of those things. It took four babies to get there, but you got there. You got there because you put forth the work. You learned. You grew, and you were determined. I think as listeners, as you're listening, sometimes that's what it takes. It's really diving in, putting forth that effort, and finding what's true for you. I know it's hard, and I know not every provider out there is like Dr. Chung. He is a diamond in the rough from what it sounds like on so many levels. But they do exist. Again, going back to what you were saying, sometimes it just talks about Paige going in and saying, “Try to have an open mind. Look at this video. I would like for you to view this. Just take a look at it,” and left it in his hands. Sometimes, it just takes something so simple. But, oh my gosh. I can't believe it. We were Marco Poloing about episodes, you guys, before she was in labor. We were also Marco Poloing about social media posts. She was like, “I just don't want to say anything until it happens.” I think sometimes even then, I wonder if that's where that ultrasound had come in and maybe there was doubt. I don't know. It seems like maybe that aligns pretty well with the time that we were messaging and that. Maybe we were Marco Poloing or texting. I don't know. It's like, could this happen? Is it really going to happen? You want it to happen so bad, and then to see it unfold and to have it unfold in such raw beauty, oh my goodness. I cannot believe it.So in the OR, they let Julie in there, right?Paige: Oh, yeah. Dr. Chung is a photographer himself. Julie had asked me to ask him if she could move around or if she had to be stationary. He was so open to her walking anywhere and having free range of movement and having multiple sources of video and photo. Julie: Yeah, it was really cool. I want to speak a little bit to that side of things if that's okay for a minute. Being a birth photographer is kind of complicated and sometimes logistically crazy especially as the baby is being born because everybody has a job to do. Not every provider and nurse is supportive– maybe not supportive. Not every provider and nurse is respectful of the fact that I also have a job to do and that these parents are paying me not a small amount of money to come in and do this job. That is very important to them to have this birth documented in a special way.It can be tricky navigating that especially times ten when it comes to being in the operating room. I have about a 50% success rate of getting in the OR back home. Some hospitals are easier than others. It's always an honor and a privilege, I feel, when providers create a way for me to go in the OR because Cesarean birth is just as important, maybe even more important to have documented because it comes as a healing tool and a way to process the birth especially when most Cesareans are not planned. It was really cool to hear ahead of time about how supportive Dr. Chung was and how amazing he was going to be to let this happen. When we were in there, I don't think I've ever moved around an OR as much as I have in that OR. Providers will tell you, “Oh, you're not allowed in because the operating room is so small. Oh, the sterile field, we want to make sure you don't pass out when you're in there.” I think all of these excuses that people give are just regurgitating things. They don't want another person in the OR. It's just kind of dumb because that was the smallest OR that I have ever been in. I still was able to document it beautifully. I respected the sterile field. I wasn't in anybody's way. People were in my way which is fine because they had a way more important job to do to make sure Paige didn't bleed out and that the baby was born and that Paige's needs were met and things like that. I'm okay. I'm used to navigating around people in the space. I'm perfectly comfortable with that. It was so beautiful. I was down at her feet. Paige, I've actually been going through your images and choosing ones to include in your final gallery while you've been talking. I cannot wait to show you this. I have images of Dr. Chung pulling his head out, still images, of the head being born through the incision. It's like crowning shots. It is this beautiful image of this baby's head being born. Obviously, you've seen the one of his head all the way out. I just think it's so beautiful. I consider it such a privilege and such and honor to have as much freedom in that room. I was literally at her feet, Meagan, documenting while he was cutting her open the adhesions and all of those things. There is video. There were images. I have chills right now. And then as baby was born, I was able to move up by her shoulders and document that and her reaching down for baby. I have all of that. I think that is such one more reason why Dr. Chung is amazing. It is such a rare gem, a diamond in the rough, because Paige now has the documentation for this beautiful story, and it's just one more thing where we have work to do. We have lots of work to do, lots of work to do, and lots of advocacy with people asking for this. I just think it's so important and so cool. It's such a rare thing. I don't even think I would have been able to do all of this back in the States. Meagan: No. Julie: I just think it was so cool. I'm determined to get these images to you before I leave so we can look at them together. I cannot wait for you to see them. I can't. I'm just so excited. Paige: Well, it just makes me think of how often you've said, “If you don't know your options, you don't have any.” The purpose behind this, and why I felt I really did want to go for this option, and what was pulling me to it, is because I want to create options for women and to show them what's possible. That's why I wanted Julie to come. I wanted her. I told her specifically, “Document every step of the process so that women have more resources to see the ways we do it.” I didn't do it exactly like the Olive Juice photography video. There are little variances between it, and that's okay. But it was still so beautiful, so wonderful, and then also, I asked her to document the surgery itself because so much of it is going back and trying to process it in your mind while you're going through it. I'm so glad she did. We walked through it last night, just the moment when I was in the most pain. It was actually really wonderful to see what he was doing which I wasn't in the space to see at that time, but to go back and see, “Okay, that makes sense because he was maneuvering so much,” and to connect it. The connection piece was so valuable. For every Cesarean, I'm so passionate now that you need a doula. You need a midwife in there. You need a birth photographer. You need everybody in there. I knew it, but now, I'm so passionate that we need to advocate for ourselves just as much for planned Cesareans. Meagan: Absolutely. I still can't believe it. I'm so happy. I love this story so much. I believe everyone should hear it because like you said, we need to be educated so we can apply what we need. We don't know what we don't know. This is what we've heard for so many years, but we can know. We can know our options, and it does take us doing it most of the time. The medical world out there is trying sometimes. Sometimes, they are not trying as well. But they are trying. They are also capped in a lot of ways with resources and with time. There's just a lot that goes into it. So, dive in, you guys. Learn. Follow what you need. Follow what your heart is saying. If your heart is saying, “I want a different experience, it's okay to push for that different experience.” Paige: Yeah, definitely. I'll attach a lot of the resources that I used to help me in my prep. But I did just want to cap off by saying that I don't feel like I'm anything special. I am not a birth worker. I am not a nurse. I don't have a history of medical stuff. Dr. Chung was so cute. He was joking that I was a surgeon and getting ready to go do the surgery, but I've always been squeamish at blood and things like that. Don't feel like you don't want to go for it because you're afraid that it will be a scary thing. It is such a natural, beautiful thing. It doesn't feel as medical as it might seem. And even if you are scared, I was scared. It's okay to do it scared if you think that it might be something beautiful and if your heart is, like Meagan said, calling you to it. We're just moms, and moms are powerful, and that's enough. Meagan: I love that. Julie: I love that. I think it's really important. Paige, first of all, you are special, and this is why. Not everybo

“Inhale peace, exhale tension.”Did you know that the cascade of interventions can not only contribute to a Cesarean but may cause one? Melanie believes that was the case with her first birth. Her difficult recovery included going to EMDR therapy to help with her PTSD. Her OB/GYN did mention that she would be a great VBAC candidate. Not knowing VBAC was a thing, Melanie's research began. Cue The VBAC Link!Melanie vigorously dove into VBAC prep before she was pregnant again. Her journey is one that shows just how powerful intuition and manifestation can be. Melanie went from having PROM with her first to arriving at the birth center at 7 centimeters and even being able to reach down to feel her bulging bag of waters as her baby began to emerge en caul!Other talking points in this episode include:Achieving a VBAC without a doulaHusband support Birth affirmationsRecommended podcasts and booksSpecific ways to avoid PROMHypnobirthing by Siobhan MillerThe VBAC Link Blog: 9 VBAC Books We RecommendThe Birth HourDown to BirthNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Happy VBAC Link Podcast day, whatever day it is that you are listening. We are so happy that you are here. We have our friend, Melanie, from Texas. Texas, is that where you are? That's where my mind is thinking. Melanie: Yep. Yep. Wiley, Texas just outside Dallas. Meagan: Perfect and did you have your VBAC in Texas?Melanie: Yes. In Dallas. Meagan: In Dallas, okay. We have her sharing her stories with us today you guys. At the end, we're going to be talking about PROM. Right before we got recording, I was talking about how important I think talking about PROM is which if you haven't heard lately what PROM means, there are all of these acronyms all over the place when it comes to VBAC birth, but it's premature rupture of membranes. We are both PROM moms here and so we are very passionate about the topic. If you have had your water break before labor really started and got going in the past, definitely hang on in the end because we are going to be talking more about that and maybe some ways that could or maybe not, we are hoping these are the ways that helped us avoid premature rupture of membranes. We are going to be talking about that and of course, her beautiful VBAC story. I do have a Review of the Week and this is by milka. It says, “VBAC Podcast Review.” It says, “Hi. I love listening to your podcast. I had an unplanned C-section with my first birth and am preparing for my second birth now. I didn't know what to do to make sure I didn't end up with the same situation. Hearing so many women's stories and experiences validated mine but most importantly, I learned so many tips and ideas to help my VBAC. I had a successful VBAC and now recommend this podcast to all expecting moms. Just such a great no-pressure and enjoyable way to learn.” I love that she talked about no pressure because that is what this podcast is about. This is a place where people share their stories, where they share information both on VBAC and CBAC, and all topics when it comes to birth. We want you to just be here, be in this space, and have it connect with you how it connects with you and take these women's stories and these providers who are coming on and the information given and apply it however, it looks for your journey. Melanie and I were just talking a little bit before the episode about how it just feels so full circle. So many of these Women of Strength who have come on before Melanie here and have shared their experiences and people listening, it really is so impactful. Right, Melanie? You were saying that I was in your ear. We were in your ear and these people's stories were in your ear doing what? Empowering you. Melanie: Mhmm. Oh yeah, it's incredible. It feels very full circle to be here. Meagan: Yes. We are very excited that you are and you guys, we are going to jump right into her story in just a second. Okay. The table is yours. Melanie: Okay, so happy to be here. Meagan, like you said, you guys have been in my ear for over a year so it just feels incredible to be here. As I was listening to these stories, I was always hoping to find that birth story that was like mine just to find out what went wrong with mine and also on the flip side, what did people do? What were people seeing in things that went right and how they were able to get a successful VBAC? I was very motivated and inspired by the podcast. I listened to every episode so hopefully, my two stories out there can hit home with anyone. But yeah. I'll start with, of course, the C-section just briefly. I got pregnant in March 2021 so everybody remembers it was COVID times still. Meagan: Wild times. Melanie: Wild times. Actually, at the beginning of my pregnancy, my husband wasn't able to come to the appointments. But thankfully, it being 2021, by halfway he was able to come. That pregnancy, I was really healthy. I ran. I'm a big runner so I ran every day. I had no morning sickness. I was very active. I never even until the very end– I ran the day my water broke and I never had that feeling like I didn't want to be pregnant.Not the case the second time as we'll hear, but the first time—Meagan: And you do that competitively, right? Did you compete during pregnancy at all? Melanie: I've ran my whole life so I ran cross country and track division one in college. Now, I do more marathons. Yeah. I ran both pregnancies. Not anything too crazy. During the second pregnancy, I did run a half marathon. I was 16 weeks but then it went downhill after that. But yeah. I run pretty competitively. I take it really seriously and it's a passion of mine. Yeah, the only thing I got the first time and the second, but I did. I've heard it before on the podcast is SPD, symphysis pubic dysfunction. The first pregnancy, so the one I'm talking about, a prenatal chiropractor literally cured it. I had to go back a couple of times because it would get out of alignment again, but for anyone who is suffering from SPD like I was both times, it's amazing. I would just call them witches because they would literally cure it and it would get me back to running. It was amazing. So my birth education the first time around, I thought I was educated like so many women here. I read the typical What to Expect When You're Expecting. I did a podcast but it was more so of what size is your baby? What's going on in utero? I didn't listen to many birth stories and I became so obsessed with that the second time. And truly, I feel like you get the best birth education through birth stories because you just get the whole shebang. We did take a hospital birth class and now I know that a hospital birth class is really just the hospital policies. I remember there was a section that they had mentioned very quickly in passing, “If you're going to have a C-section, you should take this class. Okay, the next thing.” I thought like so many women, That's not going to be me. I'm not going to have a C-section. I'm healthy. I feel great. Most C-sections are not planned so I feel like it really did a disservice to not even mention anything about a C-section in that class, but anyway, I just assumed that you have a baby in the hospital. You get an epidural. You take a nap and then you wake up and you push out a baby. I was not against hospitals or anything. I was not against the epidural or anything like that. I mentioned that I ran the day my water broke. This was past 40 weeks. 40 weeks came and went. A couple of cervical checks I got I was not dilated at all. They had scheduled a 41-week induction date. When I was checking out at the front desk at the time, I just remember it feeling really, really wrong scheduling that date. Meagan: Your intuition was speaking right there. Melanie: 100%, yeah. Of course, I didn't realize it at the time. It was my first baby and everything but when I look back, that just felt so wrong. 41 weeks came and I was supposed to go in at 9:00 PM that night but the interesting thing is that my water broke actually 4 hours before I was supposed to go in. It was 5:00 PM and I was supposed to go in at 9:00. Like you mentioned Meagan, it was PROM so it was a trickle. I was like, Wait. Am I peeing? What is happening here? No contractions at all. And with the little education I did, I knew that just because your water breaks, it doesn't mean that you have to go in and you should labor at home as long as possible. However, because I was set to go in and I guess because I was 41 weeks, I called them and I just remember they were like, “No. You're in labor. Come in.”I was like, “Okay.” Meagan: This is labor? Melanie: Yeah, I was like, “Oh, okay.” So I got to the hospital literally not dilated at all. I was maybe half a centimeter and they inserted the Cervadil at 9:00 PM which hurt really bad because it turns out if you are not dilated, it really hurts to get Cervadil inserted. Meagan: And if your cervix is posterior, it's hard for them to get it into your cervix so that can also cause a lot of discomfort. Melanie: That's exactly what it was too because I think they had a hard time. I didn't even think about that. It was probably posterior. Man. Yeah, see? My body just wasn't ready for that. But contractions did come eventually. I don't know if Cervadil can cause it or if it was just time. I was going into labor but that was around 1:00 AM. The contractions started to get uncomfortable. I had not practiced coping with contractions at all because I was planning to get an epidural. I never had any inkling of going unmedicated or anything so this is where I think everything went south.This is where I just think it was the cascade of interventions. First I had fentanyl which I don't know why because I think I was trying to delay the epidural for whatever reason. I don't know why. I had fentanyl first. It was awful. It felt like I was so drunk. The room spun and it was terrible. Then an epidural, which has fentanyl in the epidural. That was fine. After the epidural, of course, you feel amazing, but you are stuck on your back forever. I just think this cascade of interventions, being stuck on my back, not moving, I never ever take medicine as it is. I think my body and my baby just hated all of this. So then eventually, terbutaline was given around 6:00 AM. Meagan: To stop the contractions. Melanie: Yep. I think that's when some decels started happening then they did pull the Cervadil to stop the contractions. There were some decels then yeah, eventually it's all a little bit fuzzy but at 6:45 AM the decision was made for a C-section. At 8:01, he was born. They called it an emergency C-section and now I look back and I'm like, yes. I do believe that it was needed. However, I'll never really know but I really think it was caused and also, if it's an emergency, I understand that they don't wait hours like they did for me and they usually put you under. I think it was more unplanned and I look back and I really think it was caused. Meagan: That is the hard thing to know. A lot of these Cesareans, I would agree with you that they are caused by the cascade of interventions and things like that and then a lot of providers will say “emergent” so there are emergent Cesareans where we need to get this baby out quick and then there is a crash where they do put people under with crash Cesareans. But if they are waiting for hours, it's almost like they gave the emergency title to make themselves feel better or make it look valid to justify that Cesarean. Melanie: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That experience was really awful for me. I think for some women, I think it's awful for a lot of women and then I think for some, it's not that awful. For me, no skin-to-skin. I know that's not very common at all. It felt like it was forever for them to bring him to me. No one was talking to you in this moment and I just don't think these doctors realize in the moment that you're being robbed of something that you envisioned and a really important experience. It just felt like forever for them to give him to me. It was 30 minutes or so. He was fine. He came out completely fine with great APGARS. I was fine. It just ended up in the way I didn't want it to. I did have PTSD from that experience because I was having a lot of flashbacks to it. I went through some EMDR therapy. I had a great therapist and of course, I talked to her about it. She was there for my VBAC as well. But yes. That postpartum was just– the healing sucked. I just felt really awful and I think mentally, it took a really big toll on me. Breastfeeding was really hard. A lot of that I attributed to my C-section. It was not desired. It was just not great. So that was the first birth. I never knew VBAC was a thing or a big deal at all. I don't even think I knew the term VBAC. I went to the 6-week post-doctor's visit and I remember she was like, “Yeah, you'd be a great candidate for a VBAC. However, you have to go into spontaneous labor by 39 weeks.” I'm sitting here like, okay. He was just a 41-week baby. My mom has a history of going late. I don't think that's very likely that I'll go into spontaneous labor by 39 weeks so I already made up my mind that I wasn't going to go with her. I learned later that that is a very common thing that hospitals and OB/GYNs will say to you. Yeah, that was the first one. So then cue The VBAC Link. I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast before I was pregnant. Maybe my son was a year old and I binged every episode. You and Julie were in my ear a ton. The thing that I heard from The VBAC Link was that the likelihood of a successful VBAC for many of these women did happen out of the hospital and like you yourself, Meagan. That's not to say that of course, you can be in the hospital. You can have an epidural and get induced and have a successful VBAC, but when I just heard the overwhelming thing was how much of a better chance you have. I should also mention that my husband works in medicine too. He's a physician assistant. I will talk about that. He had a little bit of a hard time just with the safety aspect of it. But once I let my mind go toward the possibility of an out-of-hospital birth– because I wanted a VBAC so badly. I was so motivated. Then I realized that it was something that I actually really desired, a physiologic birth and unmedicated. When I look back, I think that's why I had such a hard time mentally with my first birth because I think I didn't know that I cared how my babies come into the world and I wanted to experience that. I don't know and in some weird way too, it felt like doing an unmedicated out-of-hospital birth made me almost feel connected to my ancestors. It seems really weird, but I was like, this is what they did. I just think it's something really cool that our bodies do. I wanted to experience that. But I do. I recognize that it was a trauma response for me for sure to become obsessed with research. I binged all of the episodes. I would look for anything related to VBAC. I read so many books and I actually toured. I had a neighbor and a friend who was pregnant at the time and she was going with the birth center that I ended up going with. We would go on walks and she would talk about her experience and how amazing and wonderful it was. I was just like, man. I want that, especially knowing that we were planning to most likely have just one more child. I hated to have that thinking of, this is my last chance, but I did. Meagan: I understand that so much because my husband told me that too and I was like, “I really want this VBAC. I really want this VBAC.” Melanie: Yeah and that's okay. We're okay. It's okay if we have these desires and these wishes. You only get one life. It's okay to want what we want. I'll never forget. I toured the same birth center that my friend was at and again, I was not pregnant yet. It was an education class. I was like, let me just see what these midwives are all about and what birth centers are like. It just immediately– again, it's that intuition. It immediately felt so right. I remember I walked in and just before even finishing the class, before we even really heard them out, I just knew that this was where I wanted to give birth in my next pregnancy. It felt so right. And also, I'll never forget. I had asked questions about VBAC because unfortunately, not all birth centers support VBACs which I don't understand, but I had asked a lot of my questions related to VBACs and I remember the midwife saying, “Well, unfortunately and fortunately, we do a lot of VBACs.” I'm thinking, why would I not want to be with a provider who does the most VBACs? Hospitals don't do a lot of VBACs comparatively. A lot of people are like me. They go to a birth center because they really want a VBAC. That just was really calming to me. I felt like I was with experienced hands. I was safe and there also was not really anything different about a VBAC. I'm with people who understand and trust birth. I brought this up to my husband and I mentioned that he had his reservations because he's a physician assistant and he works in orthopedic trauma but he was in PA school, he had to do OB/GYN rotations. He unfortunately saw some bad birth outcomes so to him, the hospital was a safety net but I was so, so grateful that he was supportive of my desire to go out-of-hospital even though it seemed kind of crazy to him. He came to– we had one meeting with the midwife so he could ask questions and everything. She was so great and answered all of his questions and I actually was unknowingly pregnant at the time. I didn't know it.Meagan: No way. Melanie: It's really weird. I toured the birth center first by myself and it's almost like my body needed that to be like, boom. You found the place where you are going to give birth and then I got pregnant. It was really weird. We were trying but also, it takes my body after coming off birth control some time so it still was a shock. I was like, oh wow. So anyway, the second pregnancy was much harder as I mentioned. I was not able to be nearly as active. I ran that half marathon like I mentioned and then– it was the Dallas half– then my body just went downhill. It was much, much harder. My sleep was horrible. I have an Aura ring and it tracks your sleep and everything then at the end of the year, it will give you a summary of every month's sleep. I will never forget because I got pregnant in September and it's like, January, February, March, April everything is fine and you look at the bar graph time series and it plummets in September. It stayed that way. It was my deep sleep. My deep sleep really, really decreased a ton. Maybe that's normal and I just didn't know that the first time, but I did not tell many people I was going with a birth center. I lied about my due date which I learned from this podcast which is very smart to do. I highly recommend it just because I didn't want to let in any of that negative energy or anything. The couple people I did tell, I did get a couple of people who would be like, “Oh, they're going to let you do that,” like the “let you” language. Meagan: We both did the same thing at the same time with the air quotes. The “let you”. Melanie: Yeah, exactly. I don't blame them. I just think that a lot of people don't have that birth education. And in hospitals, it's very normal to do a repeat C-section even though we all know it's not evidence-based. So very briefly, I want to talk about the prep that I did in this pregnancy that made such a huge difference for me. Number one, all of the podcasts like I mentioned. This one, of course. The VBAC Link, I binged it. I found the Down to Birth podcast at the end and that's a really, really good one. I know everybody does The Birth Hour as well which is good but that one has everything. I loved the more VBAC-specific ones. Then also, they haven't produced any episodes in a while but the Home Birth After Cesarean Podcast was really good too because they were all unmedicated. I was hoping to do that and they were all VBACs. Then books– I read a lot but these were my favorites. Of course, Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. Emily Oscar's Expecting Better is really good. Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way is a little outdated but that one I really loved. It really taught me what productive contractions looked like because I didn't really experience labor the first time. I never made it past a 3 the first time. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't have coping mechanisms. They really focused on breathing. The best book I read and I hadn't heard this one on it. Maybe you know of it but I had never heard about it but it was Hypnobirthing by Siobhan Miller. There are a lot of books on Hypnobirthing but Hypnobirthing by Siobhan Miller. I was just thinking of Hypnobirthing as a possible way to cope. That book was the best book because I really like the science, the physiology, and what is actually happening in your body when you're getting contractions and how do you work with your body. It just had such a great way of explaining all of that.That was the last book I found. I was 3 weeks away from my guess date. That one was great. She also creates the Freya app if you've heard of that. The Freya app times contractions and it helps you with breathing. They give you a lot of mantras. Yeah. That book was amazing. I did get the Freya app too. I did not know I was going to rely on it so much in labor. Also, in that book, it was really big on affirmation cards. I would make affirmation cards then I would read them in the bath and sometimes practice my breathing through the app. I did some pelvic PT and then, of course, the prenatal chiropractor like I mentioned, I continued to do that. Like I mentioned, the care with the midwives was great. Very positive language. I noticed what was really important to me was not, “I hope I can do this,” because of course, I hope that. But my midwives were amazing because every time, they would just speak it. They would say, “You are going to have a beautiful, redemptive VBAC.” They would just say that. Of course, I know I am 50% of the birth story. The baby is the other 50%. Of course, I know that but it was so important for me to have that positive language. I really worked on my mindset this time around. I only followed accounts that served me. I unfollowed news accounts. I had to be very careful about what I watched and things like that. I don't think women realize how important our mental state is. I get very sensitive. Meagan: Yes. So talking about that, protecting your space, our bubble, or whatever it may be. Protecting our space is so important because mentally, like you were saying, I don't know if people really understand how precious our mental space is but mentally, if we are thrown off, it is sometimes really difficult to get back onto that rail. I had a situation on Facebook in a VBAC-supportive group. I've talked about it in the past. I was so excited to announce that I was going to birth outside of the hospital. I also wasn't telling people that I was birthing out of the hospital. I didn't really tell people my plan I thought I could in that group and I wasn't supported. I had to leave that. Sometimes it means leaving groups. Sometimes it means staying off social media. Sometimes it means muting people who may be sharing their opinions or telling people flat-out, “I appreciate you so much but unfortunately, I can't have you in my space,” because mentally, they are not serving you well. Melanie: 100%, yeah. I hate that that happened to you and I know that happens to so many women. It's just so unfortunate and I hate that there is such a stigma with VBAC because if you do the research which people who have really “easy” births don't have a reason to really do the research but if you are like us where we are all very motivated to have a VBAC because we already have this stigma going against us, it's all unwarranted. It's not evidence-based to not be supportive of a VBAC and if you really research and do the stats, you realize that it's not a big deal. The craziest thing that I heard on the Down to Birth Podcast was, “You have a chance of uterine rupture even as a first-time mom.” Meagan: Yes, you do. Melanie: It's not that much higher as a VBAC and first-time moms go their entire pregnancy never once hearing about uterine rupture but yet if you are a VBAC mom, that's all you hear about. So it's so crazy to me. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. So mentally, you were unfollowing. You protected your space there. Is there anything else that you would give tip-wise to protect your mental space?Melanie: I think just believing in your body and believing that we are made to give birth. I think that's a really big one. Of course, like you said, unfollowing and maybe not talking about it with people, unfollowing accounts that do not serve you. I think the most important thing, I know we've heard it a million times on this podcast, but where you give birth and who you give birth with is the single most important thing because you want to be with a provider who believes that you can do it, whoever that is. Yeah, believing in yourself. I think that's going to look different for everybody of what they need. For me, I am a data person so I needed the stats. I needed to read the books and also listen to lots of women who have done it before me. Meagan: Mhmm, love that. Melanie: So okay, here we are. I was 40+5 so again, not 39 weeks with spontaneous labor but 40+5. I woke up at 5:00 AM to what I thought was contractions. I had some Braxton Hicks at the very end which I never experienced before. I didn't know if maybe it was prodromal labor but it didn't feel like Braxton Hicks because it was waking me up. I just tried to move through them a little bit. They were coming very, very sporadically. I would get a short contraction one time an hour and this went on for most of the day and they were not long at all, like 30 seconds. In my mind, I'm thinking, I'm a hopeful first-time vaginal birther. So I'm like, okay. This could be 24 hours. It could be 48 hours. Who knows? But I did not want to waste any energy timing the contractions so I was just guessing the whole day. It was a Sunday. I stayed home with my toddler. Yeah, I should mention that he is 2.5 so I waited about 2.5 years between the two births. So yeah. I just labored at home with my toddler and my husband. We are big track fans so it worked out perfectly. There was a Diamond League track meet on so I did the Miles Circuit while I was watching that. I texted my midwives and kept everybody updated but I think again, we all thought I still had a ton of time. Then I would say around 4:00 PM that day, I started to notice them a little bit more. They were still pretty inconsistent. I would say maybe 8-10 minutes apart and still only 30-45 seconds long. That was something I learned from again, that Bradley Method book I read is that productive contractions for most women– I will say not for me. We will get into that. But for most women, they are a minute plus. Those are the most productive contractions. I texted my midwife then that I felt like it would likely be that night. I felt pretty confident that they were coming but I was like, it could be the middle of the night. It could be tomorrow morning. Who knows. She texted back and she advised that I take some magnesium, take an Epsom salt bath and then go to bed and try to reserve my energy for when they are 4-1-1. We had a birth photographer this time so I texted the birth photographer. I texted our friends who I'm so grateful for. We had a neighbor and a friend who was going to come to our house and be with my toddler. So, so sweet. Yeah. I took the magnesium and then my husband, Brandon, drew me a bath and then disappeared with our toddler. I sat in the bath and I was reading my affirmation cards. This makes me so emotional but I discovered that my husband had snuck in his own affirmation cards into my pile and that's when I found them. Oh, it was so sweet. Meagan: That's adorable. Melanie: I know. It still makes me cry when I think about it because it just meant so much. It makes me so emotional. It was super sweet and one of the best things he's ever done for me. I found those and was reading through them in the bath and just trying to relax and really work with the contractions. I know from my research that you need to relax. To get them to be productive contractions, you have to relax. You have to get your body out of the way and it will go faster that way. They really started to ramp up when my husband was putting our toddler to bed around 7:30. I got in the bed and I put the pregnancy pillow in between my legs. I lay there and was trying to establish a pattern. Yeah. I know manifestation sounds pretty woo-woo but I want to say and this is where I'll start sprinkling these in because there were 10 things that I had manifested or really, really prayed would happen and I was very intentional that I really, really hoped that this happened. This was the first one. I don't know why I had envisioned laboring with my dog. You have a dog. You understand. My dog is my firstborn. She is my baby. I love her. You know, birth is so primal so I was just like, She's going to know. She's going to know when I'm in labor and she's going to know what to do. She did. She followed me. I didn't even realize it at the time. She followed me in my bed and I took a picture with her at 8:19. She was lying next to me on the bed as I was going through these contractions and it's a very, very special memory for me. I was already starting to get the labor shakes at this point. It's 7:30 and laying down in bed did really help to establish more of a pattern but they still were not a minute long. They were 40-50 seconds long. Then I moved to the toilet as many women do at this point, backward on the toilet. I lost more of my mucus plug because I had lost it sometime earlier in the day then at some point, I looked down and realized that I was having my bloody show. Again, none of this I had ever experienced before with my first. My husband was an absolute rockstar in this moment. He was so cute. He was running back and forth between the toilet and then packing up the car because I think he realized it was starting to get pretty serious. He brought me water and he put on the back of the toilet, cleaned it, gummy worms and things. That was not what I wanted at that moment but it was super cute. Oh, and I should mention that I did not have a doula so he was kind of like my doula. I was trying to prepare him as best as I could beforehand but he didn't need it. He did really well. I know the hip squeezes are great and I learned that from this show of course. As they were coming, I would scream at him, “Hip squeezes! Hip squeezes!” He would come over and do it and he did awesome. He was saying that I left my body in this moment and I was possessed because when I was having a contraction, again, I was trying to do the deep moans and really trying to relax but it's just funny. He was telling me about it after and he was like, “Yeah, it was like if you were looking at it from the outside, it's like you were possessed then you would scream at me and just moan.”Then by 9:24, they were coming. I mentioned they were not a minute long, but they were coming on top of each other. So every 2.5-3.5 minutes apart, but still not quite a minute long so my husband was calling the midwives and she still was like, “Well, they're not quite a minute. Just have her keep laboring at home until they are a minute.” Eventually, he called her back and I think he put it on speaker so she could hear me and that's what did it. Meagan: Uh-huh. She's like, “Load her up.” Melanie: Yes. Because we live outside of Dallas. The birth center was in downtown Dallas so it's pretty far. It's usually a 45-minute drive for us so I think my husband was just like, “I don't want to have a car baby.” Meagan: Sure. Melanie: Yeah. It was ramping up. So yeah. She called back. I mentioned the Freya app. I really relied heavily on the Freya app because when you are timing the contractions, it helps you with the breathing, in for 4, out for 8, and then one of the mantras I learned from that Hypnobirthing book that I did not know I was going to rely on so much– and I think you never really know when you're going into it and when you're in labor. You never know what's going to stick. My mantra that I must have repeated to myself 500 times was, Inhale peace, exhale tension. Every single contraction, I just repeated that over and over and over. I was trying to make it until 10:30 PM when we called them again, but that's when we got in the car and started heading there. He made it to the birth center in 33 minutes. The car ride was not fun like many women talk about. I think I hardly opened my eyes and I was just timing them, repeating my mantra, Inhale peace, exhale tension. I arrived at the birth center at 11:00 PM. I had a contraction on the step right there as I was trying to get out of the car and trying to make it. I eventually made it inside and I had my first cervical check of the whole pregnancy. I again, something I had manifested was that my two favorite midwives would be there and they were. One of them, she wasn't even on call but she came anyway. So many sweet things happened. I got on my back. She asked if she could check me and I was like, “Yes. I really want to know.” One thing again, I manifested that I really wanted to be at least a 6 when I showed up. The first thing she said was, “You are much farther along than you ever were with Rhett.” You are a 7 and you are very stretchy. I can feel your bulgy back of waters and the baby's head is right behind it. That's the other thing. We mentioned PROM. Here I am and my water still had not burst and it was amazing. Being on my back felt awful by the way. That's why I just don't understand. Being unmedicated in a hospital must be so, so hard because I know a lot of the times they want you to be on your back and I just can't imagine because that was the worst position ever. She started filling up the tub right away. Like many women, I was like, “I have to poop.” I get on the toilet and I was like, “I swear I do.” But no, I don't. Nothing was happening but it feels like I do. I got in the tub right away. I did a couple of contractions. They were still coming on top of each other. I was sitting down and eventually, I moved to hands and knees. Very shortly after, that was very fast. That was only about 5 minutes after getting checked. Very shortly after, my body was starting to push and I was like, “This can't.” I mentioned something. I don't really remember this but I mentioned something to my midwife about how it seemed to soon to push. I was like, “You just checked me and I was a 7-8. Why is my body pushing right now?” I was really wary of a cervical lip or a swollen lip which I learned from this podcast. I can't remember exactly but she said something to the nature of, “If your body is ready to push, let it push. This is your body getting ready to birth your baby,” which is again, something else I had really, really envisioned. I would have loved my body to do the pushing and it did which was amazing. My water had not broken still at this point and the really cool moment was that the baby was en caul for a while. I remember her saying something on the phone about baby being en caul. I was birthing the sac before I birthed the baby. It felt like a water balloon. She kept telling me, “Feel down. Feel the sac.” It felt like a water balloon coming out of you. It was so weird. Yeah, my midwife stayed behind me so quietly the whole time. I never knew she was there. My husband set up my birth playlist and music and he just was such a rockstar in this moment. He was getting a cold rag and putting it over my shoulders which felt amazing, getting water and electrolytes and continuing to help me with that. Yeah. My body pushed for about 30 minutes and I don't want to scare anybody, but truly, that was the worst part. I remember– I guess maybe it's the ring of fire, but I just remember feeling like my body was ripping in half. But then it goes away. Meagan: Yeah. It's intense. It's intense. Melanie: It's so intense. I don't think anything can really prepare you for that. I follow that account, Pain-Free Birth. I don't understand and I would watch videos of women who were smiling and they look great. I'm like, oh my gosh. That part was so, so painful. Handling and dealing with the contractions is one thing and I felt like I was really strong. I felt like I did a good job with that, but that pushing part is something else. His head was out. It was a boy. His head was out for a little while but nobody panicked and my husband was ready to catch him. His hand was right there. At some point, I remember my midwife was like, because again, my body was doing all of the pushing. I didn't do any of it. I guess after the head was out of a little bit, she was like, “You can try to push.” My husband told me because his hand was right there that my pushes were nothing. They were baby, tiny little pushes compared to the ones my body was doing. Then at some point, my midwife asked if she could help or something and I was like, “Yes, please.” I don't know what she did. My baby was kind of big which I'll say in a second, but I think maybe his shoulder was stuck or something. She did something that was pretty painful but then within a second–Meagan: A sweep. Melanie: Yeah, like a maneuver because I definitely felt more stretching then a second later, he shot out. He did have the cord wrapped around his neck one time but nobody freaked out and they just literally took it off then he pinked up right away, cried, and he ended up being 9 pounds, 5 ounces. My first was 6 pounds and 14 ounces. I'm like, “No wonder running felt awful. He was pretty big.” I look back and I just feel very proud. I was never once scared for myself. I never once thought about uterine rupture and I never was scared for my baby. I do have some memories of– they did the intermittent checking and I have this memory of the decels. That is why I ended up having the C-section so I was always very curious to see how he was doing during the check. He was always fine and I was never scared. Yeah. We got out of the tub quickly. They waited for me to deliver the placenta on the bed. It was about 30 minutes and yeah. My baby latched right away which was such a relief because I mentioned we had some struggles the first time. The crazy thing was– we sat there. We ate. We chatted for a little bit then once they did all of the newborn tests right there, we were home by 3:45 AM. My toddler went to bed as an only child and then he woke up to a little brother. And that's his story. The postpartum has been so different and it's been so much better. I can't help but think that a lot of that is because of such a smoother birth and the recovery has been so much better than a C-section. Different, but still so much better. Meagan: Yeah. Melanie: Yeah. I just thank this community so much. I also was on the Facebook page and I just got so much strength from all of the women before me. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. Such an incredible story. I love– okay, a couple of things. One, we talk about it on the podcast. I love when people go and look for providers before they are pregnant. I absolutely love it. I think it's very powerful. But two, you were actually pregnant and you didn't know it. Melanie: I know. Meagan: That's so cool that you were doing that and it felt so right and not only was your intuition before pregnancy kicking in but you were actually pregnant and it felt right. You were like, this is the place. This is the place. Then you showed. You went past that 39-week date. You never had gone past 3 centimeters before. So much strength and power happened through all of this and then you pushed out a 9-pound baby. All of these things that a lot of the world doubts. Did you look at your op report? Melanie: I did and everything was normal. Then the main thing was the decels and that's why they said was the reason. Meagan: Decels. I just wondered if they said anything like CPD or failure to progress. Melanie: Yeah, no they didn't. I was looking for that specifically. I just barely made it. I was 2-3 centimeters before the decels started happening and then they called it. Meagan: Yeah. A lot of the time we are told and the world doubts us in so many ways so if you told a lot of people who are uneducated about VBAC the things that happened with the first and then the stats of your second, I bet people are like, “You did that?” But you guys, this is normal. This is beautiful. This is what you deserve. You deserve these experiences and these joyous moments. I'm just so proud of you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your husband. He sounds absolutely adorable. Shoutout to him. Melanie: He's so sweet. Meagan: Your midwives and everybody. You did it. Melanie: Aw, thank you. Meagan: I'm so happy for you. Melanie: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm glad I didn't know how big he was before but also with my midwives, there was no pressure at all to even see how big he was. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Melanie: The second baby, I always say that he healed me because he really did. My first birth was really traumatic for me but then my friends all laugh because they say, “You're the only person who would say a 9-pound baby would heal you.”Meagan: Seriously, though. But how amazing. It's so amazing. Our bodies are incredible. Okay, we talked about PROM. This time, total opposite. Encaul for a little bit. I did some things. You did some things. Let's talk about if you've had PROM, premature rupture of membranes, there are things you could do to try to encourage no PROM next time. I am PROM, PROM, then with my third, I was contracting. My water did break way earlier than pushing but it still waited a little longer. I still feel like my efforts in a lot of ways helped. So anyway, tell us what you did. Melanie: Yes. So mainly two things. Again, being with providers who are more holistic, they are more likely to mention nutrition. We talked about nutrition a ton during the whole pregnancy. I think two main things. The first thing was collagen. They got me on collagen from the get-go. I know research shows that upping your collagen helps a strong sac. Then the second thing was Vitamin C. I didn't take any Vitamin C supplements or anything, but again, your body is amazing. I was craving oranges in my pregnancy so I think that's part of it. My body was craving oranges. I ate a lot of oranges so I think the combination of collagen and oranges really made my sac strong. And it was. It literally did not break until he came out. It was so different. Meagan: So incredible. I would echo that. Vitamin C and you can supplement with Vitamin C 100mg a day starting anywhere between 18-20 weeks. Some providers even say to do it from the very beginning as the placenta is forming and things like that. Collagen absolutely and protein. Protein and collagen. I know you guys have heard about Needed but I absolutely love their protein collagen. As pregnant women, we don't get enough collagen and we don't get enough protein in our daily eating habits so supplementing with that and getting more collagen really, really can create a healthier, thicker sac. Something that was interesting that I found out after my second– so back story. I had kidney stones. I don't know if you had any infections or anything like that with your first that made you be on antibiotics but antibiotics is what an OB told me can also weaken membrane sacs. I got UTIs and kidney stones and was put on antibiotics. The OB described to me that my OB was fighting in other areas so the nutrients that my body was getting was going to fighting and healing versus creating a stronger sac which is interesting. I've never seen any research about it but he was pretty adamant about avoiding antibiotics during pregnancy with my next one and I did. I didn't have what I had before. Melanie: That's interesting. I never heard that. Meagan: I know. I know. This is a doctor who doesn't even practice anymore. This was years ago but I was like, it kind of makes sense. It kind of makes sense. I haven't researched it. Melanie: Yeah. I can see that. Meagan: Antibiotics wipe our gut flora and things like that anyway so I can understand that but protein, collagen, Vitamin C, and possibly avoiding antibiotics. Nutrition is so huge with our bag of water. Then big babies. You guys, big babies come out of vaginas. I just have to say that. It happens. 9 pounds is a healthy, beautiful baby. Melanie: Yeah. When he came out, everybody was very shocked even before weighing him. He's thinned out now but he was swollen. Everybody was taking bets on how big he actually was. Meagan: I love it. I love it. I've seen so many babies when they come out and their cheeks are so squishy and you're like, that's a big baby. You can tell just by their face. Melanie: Yes. That's exactly it. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you again so much for completing the circle, for helping other Women of Strength out there. I too believe that women listen to these podcasts and they want to find stories that are similar with theirs in so many ways. You didn't dilate past 3. An induction that didn't turn out to be a vaginal birth so an “unsuccessful” induction that turned VBAC. A lot of people, I think, do doubt their body in that way. They are like, “Well, I was induced. Not even medicine could get me there,” but there is a lot that goes into that. Sometimes our body is just not ready or our babies aren't ready or something is going on. It doesn't mean that's your fate for all future births. Melanie: 100%. Yeah. So well said. Meagan: Awesome. Well, thank you again so much and huge congrats. Melanie: Thank you so much, Meagan, and thank you to everybody. Everybody who has told their story, the community, and everything was so helpful for me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

SHOW NOTES: (If listening on YouTube, links may not populate.  Search for "Your Birth, God's Way" on a podcast app to find show notes with live links.) Have you ever side-stepped a gut feeling and kept going toward the thing your gut told you to avoid….and then later you wish you hadn't.  Believe me when I tell you that birth is no different, only the regrets you can have when you ignore your gut about birth can have consequences that are too heavy to carry, so today I want to talk to you about discerning that gut feeling and why it's so important not to ignore your gut intuition.   Ina May's Guide To Childbirth by Ina May Gaskin   Helpful Links:   3 WAYS TO WORK WITH LORI:   --> Sign up HERE for the Your Birth, God's Way Online Christian Childbirth Course! This is a COMPLETE childbirth education course with a God-led foundation taught by a certified nurse-midwife with over 20 years of experience in all sides of the maternity world! Learn more or sign up HERE!   —> Having a home birth and need help getting prepared?  Sign up HERE for the Home Birth Prep Course.   --> Sign up for your PERSONALIZED Pregnancy Coaching Midwife & Me Power Hour HERE These consults can include: birth plan consultation, past birth processing, second opinions, breastfeeding consultation, and so much more!  Think of it as a special, one-hour appointment with a midwife to discuss whatever your concerns may be without any bias of practice policy or insurance policy influencing recommendations.   Get Christian pregnancy and birth merch HERE   Lori's Recommended Resources HERE   Sign up for email updates Here   Be heard! Take My Quick SURVEY to give input on future episodes you want to hear --> https://bit.ly/yourbirthsurvey   Got questions?  Email lori@yourbirthgodsway.com     Socials: Follow Your Birth, God's Way on Instagram! Follow the Your Birth, God's Way Facebook Page! Join Our Exclusive Online Birth Community -- facebook.com/groups/yourbirthgodsway   Learn more about Lori and the podcast at yourbirthgodsway.com!   FREE Bible Study Course - How To Be Sure Of Your Salvation       DISCLAIMER:  Remember that though I am a midwife, I am not YOUR midwife.  Nothing in this podcast shall; be construed as medical advice.  Listening to this podcast does not mean that we have entered into a patient-care provider relationship. While I strive to provide the most accurate information I can, content is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate.  You must do your research and consult other reputable sources, including your provider, to make the best decision for your own care.  Talk with your own care provider before putting any information here into practice.  Weigh all risks and benefits for yourself knowing that no outcome can be guaranteed.  I do not know the specific details about your situation and thus I am not responsible for the outcomes of your choices.    Some links may be affiliate links which provide me a small commission when you purchase through them.  This does not cost you anything at all and it allows me to continue providing you with the content you love.

In this episode of the MamasteFit Podcast, Gina and Roxanne interview Dr. Morgan MacDermott, a naturopathic doctor specializing in women's and perinatal health. The discussion focuses on strategies for successful breastfeeding during the early postpartum weeks, addressing common issues such as clogged ducts, engorgement, mastitis, and identifying a bad latch. Dr. MacDermott offers practical tips, resources, and shares her personal experiences to guide new mothers through the breastfeeding journey. The episode also includes advice on how to prepare for breastfeeding while pregnant and highlights the importance of finding lactation support. All resources mentioned are linked below!  Resources From This Episode: Morgan's Mastitis Manual: https://milkmedicine.com/mastitis-manual/  Happy ducts tincture by Wish Garden: https://www.wishgardenherbs.com/products/happy-ducts-lactation-support Klaire Labs Ther-Biotic Target B2 probiotics: https://us.sfihealth.com/tb2-target-b2 Biogaia Elactia Breastfeeding Probiotic: https://www.biogaia.com/products/elactia?srsltid=AfmBOoqe4UY4SrpciwcDOHvSIKCZx6u9noy_q1VAlPEeXghZsb30Dj5v Sunflower lecithin, brand not as important but fans of Legendairy: https://www.legendairymilk.com/collections/frontpage/products/organic-sunflower-lecithin?tw_source=google&tw_adid=707678161593&tw_campaign=8401036448&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw59q2BhBOEiwAKc0ijQtGtJv9GYfAcbyWguMml0D_-jXaQ_t7Q62aBRuzcflBYBoMOTkDeRoCtXYQAvD_BwE Haakaa colostrum collector: https://haakaausa.com/products/haakaa-silicone-colostrum-collector-set-4-ml-6-pk-pre-sterilized?srsltid=AfmBOopYHLDUGzfefHoveW9IBrBnvVDON5J6t8fryB6E2YdczTnUEM1a&variant=43769398755566 Lansinoh Soothies: https://lansinoh.com/products/soothies-cooling-gel-pads?_pos=1&_sid=fa277130e&_ss=r The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding by the La Leche League: https://www.amazon.com/Womanly-Art-Breastfeeding-Completely-Revised/dp/0345518446/ref=asc_df_0345518446/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693381391885&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12853538813409396259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1021225&hvtargid=pla-434335872153&psc=1&mcid=8d1b7b5dc7da3c45aff8e88f1fd831dc  Jack Newman website: https://babyfriendlynl.ca/resources/dr-jack-newman-website/ Ina May's Guide to Breastfeeding: https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Breastfeeding-Nations/dp/0553384295 Kellymom.com: https://kellymom.com/ Medela Nipple Shields: https://www.medela.com/en/breastfeeding-pumping/products/breast-care/contact-nipple-shields?productId=4065&package=m-20-mm Find a local IBCLC: https://lactationnetwork.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=performance_max&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw59q2BhBOEiwAKc0ijVA4zMOPGitoF7q7Bm-5_0K0oGbCQmp3gTCWuivexc-c72IlGXiJ7BoC4H0QAvD_BwE Join a Local lactation support group! 00:00 Introduction to the MamasteFit Podcast 01:19 Meet Dr. Morgan MacDermott 04:27 Understanding Breastfeeding Myths 05:56 The Physiology of Breast Milk 13:13 Dealing with Engorgement 21:14 Clogged Ducts and Mastitis 25:54 Sponsor Break: Needed Nutrition 30:19 Understanding Milk Supply and Mastitis 30:44 Personal Experiences with Mastitis 31:51 Inflammatory Mastitis Explained 32:38 Misconceptions and Misdiagnoses 33:51 Probiotics and Biofilms 36:07 Reducing Inflammation and Feeding Normally 40:42 New Guidelines for Clogged Ducts 45:34 Preparing for Breastfeeding Challenges 49:27 Finding Support and Resources 58:08 Final Thoughts and Resources 59:39 Podcast Outro and Additional Resources ===== Pre-Order Training for Two on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3VOTdwH —— This podcast is sponsored by Needed, a nutrition company focused on optimal nourishment for your perinatal journey. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code MAMASTEPOD for 20% off your first order or three months of subscription.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

“I leaned back in the tub and I think what I said was just, ‘I've never held one of my babies after they were born before.'It was interesting how there was an element that was sort of mundane about it but I liked that. It was just the normalcy of it all that shocked me if that makes sense.” Since her only experiences with her previous births were in a sterile, surgical, hospital environment, the simplicity and freedom of a home birth felt shockingly normal in all the best ways!Jolie shares her first C-section, her planned home birth turned CBAC, followed by a 15-hour home birth at 43 weeks to an almost 11-pound baby with her third. She gives invaluable advice on how to REALLY know if you have the right provider for you and how it may not always be the VBAC-supportive provider everyone recommends. Jolie's Photography and Coaching Contact InfoTransforming BirthNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It's Meagan here. We have another VBAC story for you today and we have our friend, Jolie. Hello, Jolie. Jolie: Hey, Meagan. Meagan: How are you today? Jolie: I'm good. How are you? Meagan: I am so great. I am so excited to record your story. There were a whole bunch of little snippets through your story that I'm like, Oh, I want to talk about that. But I wanted to tell everybody that I've been starting to do this. I don't know if you've been noticing but we get a lot of emails of, Hey, where was this person located? What state was that? I'm curious if it was my state so I can try to find that provider. We are going to have her providers and stuff tagged in today's post but you say you are in North Georgia, correct? Jolie: Yes. Meagan: Is that just where your VBAC was or is that where you are residing now? Jolie: Nope, this is where my VBAC was, in North Georgia. Meagan: Okay, so North Georgia people, listen up. This is going to be a great story. I'll tell you guys a little bit more. Okay, so you're a birth worker and a photographer. Are you a doula? Jolie: Yes. Yep. I was trained as a doula in 2020 but I'm exploring different ways to support people in the birth community because, with three young children, I'm just trying to navigate the on-call life and doing things. But yes, I do have experience being a doula. Meagan: Awesome. So cool. Like she said, she has three kiddos. She is a Christian wife to a Biblical counselor. That's awesome. I love how you guys said that you have a vision of a multi-generational team on a mission to God's kingdom. I just love that so much. I am so excited to record your story here in just a few seconds. I do of course have a Review of the Week as always. We always have reviews and just a reminder, if you haven't left a review yet, we would love them. They really do help the show. They help other Women of Strength find these amazing stories and honestly, they just put a ginormous smile on my face. This review says, “Love these ladies and this podcast.” It says, “I love listening to your podcast. I listen almost every day in the car. So often that my oldest son knows you both by name. The stories shared here have inspired me so much. I wish I had all of this information with my first baby. I have had two C-sections. I'm not pregnant at the moment and still have to get my husband on board for a third, but I am so excited to start planning for a VBAC after two C-sections when the time comes. Thank you, Julie and Megan, for creating this amazing VBAC community. I'm so thankful for the education and support.” Okay, seriously, I love that. We keep hearing this. I love that other kids know who we are because they are just so used to listening to the podcast because this is what I love even more than just they know who they are. They are learning. These kids are sponges. We know that. They are always taking stuff in that we are saying and if they're listening to these stories, they are learning. So hopefully if your kiddos are learning and listening, they are going to have a different outcome in their future for their future births if they so choose to because they're going to know, right? They're going to know all of these stories. Anyway, that makes my heart smile. Jolie: That's awesome. Meagan: All right, girl. Are you ready? Let's do this. Jolie: All right. Meagan: All right. Let's turn the time over. Jolie: Okay, so yes. I had a home birth in November, November 5th. That was a home birth after two Cesareans so an HBA2C. I'll just do a small synopsis of the first two births because I feel like that always helps preface the background of where I'm coming from. I think everybody's journey to their VBAC is totally different. Meagan: Yeah, totally different and at the same time, there are so many listening who are like, Oh my gosh, this is just like me. I think sometimes we hold on to those past experiences even if we've processed them. We know that was our past so sometimes we even doubt ourselves because of that so hearing someone's story who is pretty similar to yours and then hearing them go on to have a VBAC is pretty impactful. Jolie: Yeah, absolutely. I can relate to that as well with listening to podcasts and finding those stories of women's journeys to their VBACs. I definitely clung onto the ones I related to. With my first baby, our daughter, she was born in 2019 and I mean, that was like so many, a typical cascade of interventions situation where I was aware of home birth and natural childbirth. I knew that I wanted that, but I also was just young and didn't know and wasn't aware of the resources I had. It's pretty much what I chaulked that up to. I just was getting into birth and eyes wide open and reading what I could but I didn't really know obviously what the future was going to hold for me. I didn't know all what was available to me either. I was seeing a traditional OB group and was planning a hospital birth but wanted just a natural childbirth with no interventions at all. I just wanted in in the hospital. I ended up getting fear-mongered to just put it simply out there. Fearmongered into an induction at 41 weeks and yeah. Quite frankly, it just didn't work. My body was not ready. I was not open at all and I was so determined. I stayed in that hospital working with an induction for a whole week before I had my C-section. I was trying to go slow and steady and I was going a little stir crazy there at the end of that week. I obviously was confused and just downcast and so just sad about what was happening. I was shocked that I was there in that situation. I remember reading Ina May's book and skipping the C-section chapter because I was like, That's not going to be me. Why do I need to read this? Meagan: That's really normal. Even here with the CBAC stories, I think it's really common to be like, I don't want to listen to that CBAC story because that's not going to be me. But at the same time, I think it's good too. Jolie: Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a balance to that. I found myself at the end of that week pushing 42 and was kind of again just had fear within me and had fear coming from my providers of, “You've been at this for a week. You're not in labor. Your options are to leave or have a C-section.” I was just like, “Leave? I've been here for a week. I'm not going to leave here without a baby.” We opted for the C-section and she was fine. We handled that whole week together perfectly fine. There were no emergencies or hiccups in the road. It was just like, “All right. This is just what we do next,” kind of at this point. She was born at 32 to the day via Cesarean and yeah. That was that. I definitely processed the birth very traumatically because any trauma is how you process what's going on. I know there are births out there that could look like that and people handle it differently. So anyway, for me, I processed it with a sense of trauma. I spent that next year just working through that sorrow and trauma. I started seeing a Biblical counselor which is why I included in my little bio that my husband is one because I saw one and the change that he saw in me is what spurred him on and encouraged him to become one. That was a really cool moment in our family where I was going to this wonderful woman for help and just handling my birth. Anyway, that was really helpful for me in growing and changing the way I was looking at my birth. I was very determined to have a VBAC. My husband I have always said that we want however many children the Lord would give us. I assumed that wouldn't be just one. I wanted another one so I was very determined for a VBAC for my second pregnancy. We conceived my second when my daughter turned one. It was a year later and I was just– the way this pregnancy and birth happened which was a repeat Cesarean, I just put my blinders on and put my head down and was like, I just need to hire a home birth midwife and she's going to give me my VBAC. That was my attitude. Surely if I plan a home birth, I'm not leaving my house. There's no way it will end in a C-section. I was very– I don't know if stubborn was the right word, but there was a sense that I was covering up all that I went through with this first birth to just have the VBAC, have the VBAC. It was almost like that was going to fix the first one. That was how I felt. In hindsight, I see that now. In the moment, I probably did not recognize that that was how I was operating. I hired a home birth midwife who came recommended to me. I knew friends who used her. So then here we are towards the end approaching 41 weeks like the last time and my water broke on 41 weeks. It was the first sign of labor and I had no signs of labor with my first child so that was so exciting. I was kind of scared too. I was surprised. My water broke at 41 and I was talking to my midwife and whatnot. I had some little pitter-patter contractions that night and then nothing the next day. That was on a Sunday. My son ended up being born that Thursday via Cesarean. What happened within that week or a little less than a week was not the funnest of times. I pretty much realized there at the very end when I was needing– you're here at the end and you're like, What's going to happen next? I realized, I hired the wrong midwife, but what do I do now? Meagan: No way. Jolie: Yeah. Like I said, I'm not going to speak ill, but I believe that every care provider is not the right fit for everyone. So just because I heard wonderful reviews, that's not negating the fact that she was wonderful for some people, but looking back, this is pairing it where my head was down and my blinders were on. Now I can see in hindsight the red flags that were coming up. I was like, Oh, she's just tired. Maybe she just got back from a birth and that's why she seems grumpy. She's been doing this for a long time. I was just giving reasons to why she was the way she was. It was nothing more than that we just didn't click well. After my water broke, she took on this fearful attitude. She was very concerned and just didn't know what to do. She really fed into fears that I had and new ones in my head. I was just like, This is not helping. What's going on? All that to say, I think she wanted me to have a biophysical profile done since my water had broken and I was 41 and labor hadn't begun. Obviously, the profile came back that there was low fluid which I knew because my water had broken but there was nothing else concerning with my son. But because of that report, she transferred me to the hospital. She transferred care and she called my husband after the report came back to her and said, “Y'all need to go to the hospital. I'm not going to be able to support you. Just go.” That moment from the report to the hospital was scary for me but on the way there, I had this peace come over me because I was going back to the hospital that my daughter was born at and before this birth, I was very much even just seeing the hospital– I would just not look at it by the side of the road. I had all of this emotion attached to this place. I knew a few people who worked there in the labor and delivery ward. I had their numbers so I messaged them. I was like, “Is there any chance y'all are here?” Long story short, I'm coming. I don't want to be here, but I'm coming. They were. I had a friend come and she prayed with me and I had seen another nurse there who was there when I had my daughter and she remembered me. It was just this very healing moment in the sense of I was respected. People totally were not judging me for coming in as a home birth transfer. I was worried about that that I would get a side-eye or judgment because I was a home birth mom. I was actually going to the hospital and I didn't have a provider there. But no, they were all so very much like, “We are so sorry that you are here because we know that you don't want to be here but we are taking care of you. We understand that this is hard for you to process everything that's going on right now.” That was healing in itself. That healed my emotional attachments to the hospital that were negative. He was fine. They monitored him for a few minutes when we got there. He was fine, but they also– I did tell my husband when we were on the way, “I just know that it's going to be another C-section because I don't even have a doctor here. My water's broken. I'm already a VBAC.” I kind of had accepted that outcome before even getting there and decided to opt for it again. The doctor there was also very respectful with all of that just like the nurses were. He was born at 41 and 5. He was fine even though the water had been broken for some time. So that was that. In processing that birth, it was a little bit different than my first. I definitely felt like I was at a fork in the road though because here I am. I've just had two. I was technically a home birth transfer. I was determined to get this VBAC. What in the world happened that time? I just realized that I had taken any sort of trust and responsibility in the medical community or within myself and just put it in the hands of this midwife and put her up on this pedestal of, You're going to give me the birth that I want. I misplaced that into the whole home birth community. I was like, I can't do that again. But then that is some deep internal work then. If I am realizing that I am making all of these other people responsible for my birth and my outcome and it's not working out great, I need to figure out what the root of this is and really work on it. That began the year journey of just doing some more internal work and more counseling and therapy and stuff like that. I remember it might have been this podcast episode that I listened to or it could have been another birth podcast. It was honestly a lightbulb going off. I didn't realize I could do this. I can't remember. I think it was your podcast but one of y'all said, “I interviewed seven providers before I became pregnant again to pick one out.” Meagan: Yeah. I actually interviewed 12. Jolie: Yes, okay. I wrote that down. I heard that and I was like, Wait a minute. How am I going to do that if I'm pregnant and scrambling to find the perfect provider? I heard you say that and it was almost like, Whoa. I didn't realize I could interview people when I'm not pregnant, but why couldn't I? So that helped me. Meagan: It sounds weird. Why would you go talk to a doctor if you're not pregnant? Jolie: Yeah, but that gave me so much peace and confidence. It was a clear path of, Oh. I'm not pregnant. I've got time. I started. I didn't want to figure this all out until my son turned 1 so I was just like, You need to take a breath. Everybody talks about your next baby right after you had one and I'm always like, Can you just slow down? I just had a baby and I'm going to enjoy this time. So I waited a year not to get pregnant the third time but a year to go after my provider, find my plan, and really do the deep work again. So I did. I started interviewing all of these people. I found my midwife a little over a year before I conceived my third baby. I found her early when I wasn't pregnant. It was just such a God-ordained, perfect experience where my husband and I went and had a conversation with her. She just aligned with us on a biological level, on a spiritual level. That was something I didn't realize how important it was going to be to me to find a fellow Christian who really walked out their life with the Lord and she did. I developed a close friendship with her actually even before I was pregnant. Being in the birth world, I would work with her. I had attended some births with her before I became pregnant so I really just saw her live it out and I knew she was amazing. What's so funny, just the way the mind and body and spirit are connected was when I first met her and did the interview with my husband, I hadn't started my cycle back. I was telling her, “I'm just looking. I need a VBAC. I want a VBAC. I'm not pregnant yet, but I haven't started my cycle either so I have no idea when.” The very next day, I got my period. For me, I felt like it was my body coming into alignment with the fact that I just found somebody who was going to be amazing for my birth. Meagan: You're ready. Jolie: I emailed her, “This is so weird but I literally just started my cycle.” Anyway, that was just a really cool moment for me to recognize that connection.That was when I found my midwife and that was such a key part to my VBAC. Then it was about a year later when I got pregnant with my third. I hired her and we were just so excited. Okay, so one of my big things with interviewing people for my third was, “Okay, I have had two pregnancies and two Cesareans. Historically, I have gone postdates with both of them. I need to know what your deal is with due dates and the whole ‘let me' language and all of that.” I was trying to figure out what I aligned with in that regard and what they would support me with. So here I am approaching 42 weeks. She was very much like, “Whatever. We'll check on you more when you're past your due date if you want and we'll obviously take care of you but I have no cutoff or whatever.” Yeah. So I was 42 weeks and I started losing a little bit of my mucus plug. That was exciting but then another pretty much week went by and here I am a couple days before 43 and I have two nights of prodromal labor where the contractions would wake me up in the night but then I'd go back to sleep. That was the first night on a Thursday night I would have those contractions. Friday rolls around. I am so pregnant and so tired. It was definitely emotionally very challenging that last month. But Friday night comes around. They pick up again and that night, I really couldn't sleep so I would be on the birth ball. I would get in the bathtub and yeah. I knew I was going to need some support on Saturday because of my other children so it did fizzle out Saturday morning, but I had a friend come and play with my kids. We just all hung out together on Saturday. I did have some contractions that were strong every 30 minutes to an hour during the day on Saturday. I was pretty much– that Saturday I was 43 weeks I think. Either Saturday or Friday I was 43 weeks. That evening it started picking up a little bit more and my birth team, so my midwife and her assistant who was going to come to the birth and my husband. They came over around 10:30 Saturday morning and then 30 minutes later– so they got to my house at 10:30-11:00 PM. My kids were asleep so that was fine. I wasn't really sure if I was going to have them around or not. I was going to play it by ear because I wasn't sure what kind of support I'd need from my husband and how they were going to handle it. Through the night they slept which was great and I was laboring that Saturday night. My water broke at 11:00 PM Saturday night 30 minutes after my birth team got there and that was something that I was having to really work with in my mind because of the second birth having my water break as the first sign of labor and then not have the baby for several days. I was really wanting to not have my water break early. Meagan: Yeah. Jolie: But my water breaking actually when it broke at 11:00, I was in labor before then. That was a different situation and I just had this wave of peace come over me again because I knew I was finally in labor and my birth team was going to stay. It wasn't going to be, “Oh, nevermind. We're going to go home now.” They were here and the water was clear. I had no worries. I was actually really excited after my water broke because I thought I wasn't going to be because of my second birth but I was so thankful. Pretty much from there on, it started picking up pretty intensely. The nighttime was a blur. I just did squats and walked around and swayed and just clung to door frames I feel like. I was just sort of, yeah. I definitely struggled with holding tension in my body in the contractions. I did labor pretty much all night on Saturday and then later in the night maybe around 4:00 or 5:00 AM, I finally found a great place to relax and just a position. It was actually just laying in the bed reclined is what did it for me. I was able to melt into the contractions and I could tell that I was opening and progressing. I just slept around 4:00 or 5:00 until 7:00 AM so early into Sunday morning now. I was definitely still laboring intensely but I was sleeping. To somebody on the outside, you would just think, Oh, she's just taking a nap. I was in transition actually. I did not think I would want a cervical exam because of my previous two births– never dilating, all of that. I had to move past that whole belief that my body was not going to open and things like that so I wasn't sure how I was going to do with exams and stuff. But at that time, being a doula and hearing so many birth stories, I was already pregnant for so long, I was just like, I need to know if I have a whole other day of this. I don't want to hear a number but I want her to check me and at least tell me if my energy needs to be hunkered down, conserved, you're not that far, or is it okay, let's pick it up. You're almost there? I did want her to check me but I didn't want to hear a number. I just wanted her to give me a general frame of, “Here's where you need to be in your headspace with this information I've just received.” It was 7:00 AM maybe. She checked me. She was like, “Are you sure you don't want to hear a number?” I could just tell the way she asked that question. I was like, Okay, she knows I'm going to like the number I'm going to hear. I was like, “Okay, go ahead and tell me.” She was like, “You're an 8 and I can stretch you completely open very easily.” I was like, “What? Oh wow, this is amazing. Okay.” She was like, “I think all it's going to take is some different positions. We're going to do a circuit to get the baby's head lined up just a little bit more straight and that will open you up all the way if we just move the baby just a little bit.” I was like, “Okay, let's do it.” I did two circuits of excruciating positions. Side-lying was not the most fun thing I've ever done but I was very much just like, “Tell me what to do and I'll do it.” We did side-lying, knees to chest, and dip the hip where I was standing and I would swap and turn. I don't know how to explain the sensation, but it was probably just the baby moving through my pelvis. It was pretty intense. I did two circuits of that and I was just like, “I need to feel some comfort again and not do this circuit again.” So I was like, “I think I want to get in the birth pool.” I had the birth pool set up. I had tried to get in earlier in labor but got right back out. It was just not for me. I was like, “Maybe I'll try the birth pool.” I stepped in and was like, “Nope. I don't want to do that.” The second time now, this was around 11:30 AM. I was like, “I think I want to get in the pool.” I got in and I was like, “I'm not 100% sure but I kind of think I feel pushy.” It was just one of those things that in a lot of ways I felt like a first-time mom having this labor where I never had a pushing phase with the others. I was just sort of doubting myself a little bit, but the assistant was like, “Well, we can't tell you if you feel pushy.” I was like, “Okay. I know. I know.” Meagan: We can't tell you. Jolie: Yeah. Meagan: That's hilarious. Jolie: I was like, “Okay. Well, I'll just be in this for a few more contractions and see if whatever sensation I'm feeling stays or gets stronger. I think I'll be confident when I am ready to push or if it changes and whatever.” I just was trying to figure out again where I needed to be. So I did feel that pushing sensation and started to in the water. That was definitely such a switch in the way I was experiencing the sensations of labor because the contractions were painful to me, but when I started pushing, it was like relief and very relieving. I felt like, Oh, I'm doing something. This is different. I'm not just getting through this. I'm moving through it in a way where I have this sort of control over it. I really enjoyed pushing and I was in the tub and again, reclining on my back. I never thought I would be in this position for birth because it's usually the hospital stereotype of on your back on the bed but that's where I felt relief and got through transition on my bed so in the birth pool, that's actually how I pushed was kind of reclined back. I was just able to do it better that way. I had 5 minutes between each contraction so that was really nice because I ended up pushing for about 2 hours. That's kind of a long time. I think from start to finish my labor was 15 hours so it was those last 2. I never felt exhausted as in, I can't do this, but I do remember I wasn't really aware of the time. I knew it was Sunday afternoon. I got in the pool at 11:30 and my son was born at 2:05. I was pushing but I had those 5 minutes of breaks so I was able to doze off and float in the water. I genuinely enjoyed those 2 hours. It was just peaceful but I felt myself getting sort of impatient because I didn't know what time it was, but I was just like, Okay. The water is kind of cool. I know I've been in here for a while so I don't know. I really wish this was over now. So finally, there was a candid moment where I saw my midwife getting baby stuff together and I was just like, “Oh, what are you doing?” She was like, “You're pushing. I'm getting the baby stuff out. You're doing this. It's actually happening.” I was just like, “Oh wow. Okay. I guess so.” It was so funny. I don't know. I think there is just this part of where I was just so zoned into what I was doing and what I was feeling that I wasn't really processing it, Oh, this is happening. This is happening. As she told me, I could feel my baby's head and that was mind-blowing. Once I could reach out and feel his head, which we didn't know at the time it was a boy. We were waiting to find out. That definitely brought me into a sense of reality when I could feel the baby's head. It was just like, Whoa, okay. This is happening. There was a slight burn when his head crowned, but there was so much adrenaline when his body was coming out that I don't even really recall that being painful just kind of a burning sensation. His head crowned. I changed positions after his head was born. I was still in the water, but I sort of think I was on my back. I moved up a little bit onto my hands and knees and stayed in the water. My midwife ended up guiding his head and shoulders down and then his body came out. She handed him to me and I just remember knowing it was a boy even though I hadn't seen yet. I leaned back in the tub and I think what I said was just, “I've never held one of my babies after they were born before.” That feeling of an immediate, My baby came out and they are in my arms. That was just so surreal but at the same time it was almost so seamless and intuitive that I was just like, Okay. I just gave birth and it's just a normal day. Everybody around me– I think I had thought built it up in my mind to be this incredible experience which it was. I don't want to say, It wasn't all that, but in a way, birth is so natural and normal that after it happened, it was just like, I'm in my bed and the birds are chirping outside and the day is going on, where before I was in the hospital and it felt like this whole different world. It was interesting how there was an element that was sort of mundane about it but I like that. I don't know. It was just the normalcy of it all that shocked me if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. No, I really actually can totally relate. I remember after I had my VBAC after two C-section baby, I was at a birth center. I was in the bathroom on the floor when I gave birth and they were like, “All right, let's get you up and move you to the room.” I was like, “Okay.” I just remember going in there and laying down and starting to feed my baby and just looking around almost like, Did that really just happen? But at the same time, it was like, Yeah, it just happened and now I'm just feeding my baby. Jolie: Yeah, that was it. Meagan: It was so weird. It was so weird. There was a slight disconnect in my brain that what had just transpired transpired. Jolie: Yes. Meagan: So yeah. I really can relate to that so much. Then about how you were saying, “I was pushing for a really long time and I just looked over and realized my midwife was putting the baby stuff together and getting stuff ready,” and you were like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah.” I had that moment too where I was just laboring on the toilet and then all of a sudden, my midwife was just coming in here guiding me to the stool and I was like, Wait, what? She was like, “Let's come have a baby.” I'm like, “What, really?” I couldn't believe that what was happening was happening but I was so zoned into doing this birth, having this VBAC, and then all of a sudden, I realized I was doing that. I was actually doing that. Jolie: Yeah. I think when you have C-sections and when you have any sort of difficulties in your births, your mind clings onto those phrases that people say like, “Oh, your baby is too big. You're not going to open.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Jolie: It makes you feel like this miraculous thing must happen for me to give birth because it didn't work the other times so how in the world? Trumpets need to be blaring and some crazy thing has to happen for this to work but it doesn't and it was just like, Oh. That was it. Meagan: This is normal. Jolie: Yeah, the thing that didn't feel normal was actually the surgical births but the thing that felt normal was the VBAC so it was very interesting but after he came out, they were like, “That's a big baby.” He pooped twice before we got out of the tub like pretty big poops so then by the time my midwife weighed him, she knew that he had already pooped, but I think he weighed 10, 14 so she was like, “He totally was 11 pounds coming out. If I weighed him before he took those ginormous poops.” That was shocking and not expected at all. Meagan: Yeah girl! Jolie: That was really cool that it was not even a part of it because I didn't get any late-term ultrasounds. Looking back, people definitely kept asking me if I was having twins. They were like, “Wow. You look really big.” I just was like, “Ha, ha. I get it. I'm pregnant.” You know the things people say. I'm like, Maybe I actually did look larger than normal because this child could pass for two babies as twins. Yeah. He was almost 11 pounds. I did have one tear that I chose for her to not suture, but that was it. That was the birth. Meagan: Wow, and a surprise big baby. Think about how there are a lot of times in the provider's world of the hospital where they see someone who is a larger baby and they are wanting to do those third-trimester ultrasounds and growth scans and they are like, “What?” When really you didn't need any of those things, you just needed time. And a 43-week baby. I had one of my beginning doula clients and she was 43 weeks and 1 day as well. I mean, it was a 10-pound baby as well. It was 10,12 I think. That girl just powerhoused that baby out but she was getting pressure to get induced at 39 weeks. She was feeling all of that pressure. “Oh, your baby is looking big. You look so big. You are small. I don't know if this is going to be possible.” Then she switched at I think 41 weeks then she went to 43 and 1 and just had a beautiful, vaginal birth. I love that. Okay, so there are so many things. Something that I caught in your story was with your second midwife or with your second provider with your second baby. Everyone said, “This midwife, this midwife,” so you went with this midwife then you realized it wasn't the midwife for me. I think that is something that is important to note especially when we have our supportive provider list, right? We have this list and we're providing these names where people will rant and rave for days and days and days about some of these providers so you're like, Yeah, great. The whole community is going to this provider or whatever. Then you're in that situation and you just take that word for it, but then you get into that situation of birthing and you're realizing, Oh crap. This isn't right. There were red flags and I didn't recognize them because I was just going off of what everybody else said. I just think it's important to note that even though everybody or people might say this provider is the only provider or the best provider that it doesn't mean they are the best provider for you. It really comes back down to what that provider is looking like for you in your mind. Close your eyes. Envision your birth. Think about what they are saying, what they are doing, how they are caring for you. Think about the questions you want to ask them and go and really ask these people these questions that are really something for you. I love that you talked about that with your third midwife how you were like, “These are the qualities I was looking for.” It took you a while to find it but you found it. I love also that you pointed that out. Really you guys, I can't say it enough. Finding a provider when you are not pregnant is night and day from finding a provider when you are. Jolie: Yeah. There was no pressure. I felt like I could be so much more confident in saying no because I didn't feel like I had to say yes. Meagan: Yeah and honestly, our minds are in a different space. Even Dr. Fox a few episodes back talked about that how that is a really great thing to do because we are emotional. We feel pressure. There's time. Our baby is growing and each week matters to find that provider. It's a very different thing. It's a very different thing. Okay and then in your form, we talked about this a little bit before but you talked about radical responsibility and the word radical just stands out to me now because of our radical acceptance episodes that Julie and I have done. We've done two of them so if you guys haven't listened to those, go back and listen. There is a part one and a part two. How would you describe radical responsibility or finding radical responsibility to our audience? Jolie: Yeah. I think that it comes with a lot of coming face-to-face with some core beliefs because for me, when I was realizing was that we all day, “You are the one that cares the most about your baby and your body.” Okay. I think most people can agree that's true. But then how do you actually walk that out when you are pregnant? Because what can happen is you can be subconsciously deciding that this person over here is going to make sure I'm safe, is going to make sure my baby is safe, and is going to do all of these things for me when in reality, I believe that nobody outside of you can guarantee that safety. As a Christian, I believe that I don't even hold the keys to life and death. If that's what we're going to talk about, at the core of all of this stuff, people when they are pregnant, you want your baby after you are born and that's a thing. So that's kind of your basic line. I had to come to grips with even just the reality at its deepest core of, Okay. So if I'm pregnant and I have this baby growing inside of me and I want to birth this way for these reasons, I need to own this. If my midwife recommends I eat this way or do it. She's not going to come over and feed me. She's not going to text me everyday and ask if I took my supplements or went on a walk.That's goes into something else I'd like to mention if we have time of just handling all the things in birth. But with the responsibility aspect, it's hard to pin down but I think that it just boils down to realizing where you have control and where you don't have control and are you giving any control to someone else or are they just there to support you? There was an element where I was at where I wasn't wanting to do a free birth. I know there are very strong opinions for that or with unassisted– different terms and all of these things– but I did glean a lot from books I was reading about unassisted birth because I wanted to feel like I could make decisions with my midwife's support and not the other way around. It wasn't her making the decision and making sure I was on board with it. It was more like, This is what I want to do and I'm going to work with you because I did hire you and I actually hired you more for the essence of womanly support. Midwife means “with women” so I wanted this relationship. The relationship I cultivated with midwife was more of a sisterhood/friendship where I was like, “I need you in my birth. I hired you because I know you have incredible skills and I know that you can use these skills if something arises where I need to do something different in my birth, but more than that, I know that you know that you're not responsible for certain things and I'm not responsible for certain things but we are working together and you are there for me on an emotional level.” That was more important to me. Meagan: I love that. Jolie: Not everybody is going to be there for our births but I think if you're listening and that resonates with you like, I've taken some power and put it in other people or I'm holding my provider responsible for x, y, z at the end of the day, I would just work through that and base those thoughts and beliefs and see if you think there needs to be a change in your perception on responsibility and what we control or don't control. We have to surrender which is incredibly difficult. Meagan: Yes. It is but I love that you are talking about that. We have to walk in. We have to own it but we also have to work together. I like that you said, “I don't want her to have to convince me of this. I want to know what I'm talking about and work with her with this situation.” A lot of the time we have to do that with providers where we need to come in and work together and not be patient versus provider. It just needs to be a collaboration but at the same time, we have to take ownership into everything that we can. Okay, so we were talking about this and you mentioned that you wanted to talk about all the things. We talked about getting enough food, making sure we get the right supplements which we know here at The VBAC Link, I'm very passionate about getting the right supplements and then finding the right provider and figuring out what to do with the kids. There are so many things. Jolie: There are so many things. Yeah, I can talk about that for a minute because I think there are so many things that you can obsess over or shut down over. So one of the things that this goes into my tips of if you are going for a VBAC, here are some tips. A holistic approach– when I say holistic, I mean body, mind, and spirit. There are a lot of things we can do for our bodies when we are pregnant– the nutrition, the walks, the exercises, the Spinning Babies gymnastics. There are all of these body-focused things but you also need to be working on your mind and how you are doing in your mind which was huge for me. I found a birth course and worked with this incredible group of people. They are called Mind Change, but her birth course I think I sent you is called Transforming Birth. It's all about subconscious stuff and rewiring your brain to have different pathways for your birth. Anyway, that's my plug for that. But going into it, prepare your mind for birth. Actually think about what you do want and not what you don't want. Think about what you don't want. Have a plan. You need to have a plan for your provider. Of course, that's responsible. But put that away and spend the real-time immersing yourself in what you want it to look like. And then just your spirit. You could make a whole list of all the things you need to do, but the key is in how you approach it because I remember in one of my previous births, one of them that was a C-section, somebody had said one time– it might have just been on social media, “Oh, I went to the chiropractor every week for my birth and I got this wonderful, fast labor and I know it is because of the chiropractor.” I thought to myself, I went to the chiropractor every week. Why didn't I have a vaginal birth? It's not in the things. That's my main point which is so simple. You might hear that and be like, Duh. But it's in how you approach them. Going to the chiropractor regularly is great for your health but if you are doing it from a place of stress and control like, If I miss an appointment or if I don't hit 3 miles today, then actually, that's not helping you anymore and you should probably not do that and not go on that walk if you are feeling stressed out about having to go on the walk. Don't do it. Approach it from a place of peace and joy and acceptance going back to your radial acceptance. All of the things that can help you in your pregnancy are wonderful, but take them one at a time and make sure that when you're going on your walk, when you have your supplements, you're taking them from a place of peace and acceptance and then it can be helpful for you. One of the– I'll just share one small example of how I did this with my third pregnancy that I didn't really have this frame of mind with my previous two. There was a certain supplement. I can't remember what it was called. It was a combination of herbs that helped ripen your cervix. A lot of people recommend it for VBACs at the end. Meagan: Like Birth Prep? Jolie: It wasn't Birth Prep. It was 5 weeks or something. It had something to do with 5 or 7. There was a number in it and it's like a holistic supplement that has supportive herbs in it for ripening your cervix so I remember coming across this information while I was pregnant and just thinking, Okay. I looked it up. It was all sold out on line and I was like, I feel like in my mind I'm thinking I have to do this to get the VBAC. This is going to help me. If I don't get it, then what's going to happen?  I ended up talking to my midwife about it and she actually had some. She was like, “Oh yeah, I do love this supplement. I have some and they are all sold out right now.” I was like, “I'll take it. I'm going to let you know if I'm going to start taking it. Please ask me if I'm taking it out of a stressful, controlling way or if I'm taking it from a place of peace because depending on the way I answer, I need accountability to not actually do it,” because I wanted to be able to receive it in a way of support in general. That's what she told me. “It's not going to hurt you. They are wonderful herbs that will just strengthen and tone your uterus so you can take it,” but I knew I needed to be in a frame of mind where it wasn't like, this is going to be the thing. This is just a small example of how I embodied that reality of if this is going to stress me out, even if it's a good thing, I'm not going to do it. Meagan: Yeah, okay. I love that so much within our own community and other communities where it's like, You guys, I have 5 days to get this baby out or they're going to make me have a C-section, so then we have this stressful overreaction to do anything we can to get that baby out and actually what it's doing is creating more stress in our body which is not going to help our cervix. I love that message. I do not know what you're talking about exactly like what they used. Herbs are great, but I love that. Do things with intent and purpose. Don't do things out of fear or out of worry or out of pressure. Do things because you think they are right and because you think this is what you need to be doing, not because you're stressed about something. I'm just going to leave that right there because I love that message so much. Thank you so much again for sharing your stories and congrats on your HBAC after two C-sections. Jolie: Thank you, yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

During her first labor, Emily experienced a hyperactive uterus where she had constant squeezing with no breaks and minimal dilation. She was at a birth center but after exhausting all coping options decided to transfer to the hospital. After receiving an epidural and Pitocin, then detecting meconium, Emily was ready to consent to a Cesarean. Emily's second birth was a planned Cesarean, then her third and fourth births were both VBACs. Emily describes how even though her provider was the same for both vaginal deliveries, her experiences were so different. With her third, Emily had a beautiful pushing stage and easy recovery. However, pushing with her fourth felt rushed and she experienced a fourth-degree tear. Meagan and Emily share the importance of making your preferences known in every aspect of labor and delivery so your support team can speak up when you are not able to. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a 2VBA2C story for you today. We were just talking about it before we started recording all of the acronyms. I was like, “Oh, you're a VBAC after two C-sections story.” And your baby is 8– wait, did I see that right? 8 months? Emily: He's 9 months now. Meagan: 9 months. Emily: He's almost a year. 8 months, 9 months, 10 months, somewhere around there. Meagan: Still very little, still very fresh so I'm excited for you to share his story and your other babies' stories. We have Emily by the way. This is Emily. Hello, Emily. Emily: Hi. Meagan: Remind me. Where are you located? Emily: I'm in Texas. Meagan: Okay, you're in Texas. Awesome. Okay you guys, we're going to share her stories. We do have a Review of the Week so I want to hurry and get into that and then we'll jump into Emily's stories. This Review is from Rachel and it says, “Thanks for giving me the confidence to have a VBAC. I am glad I found this amazing podcast when I was newly pregnant with baby number two. After a long, traumatic experience that ended in a C-section, I was cautiously hopeful that I would have a VBAC. Using information that I learned from hearing other people's stories on The VBAC Link, I felt confident and prepared for the birth of my son. On October 9, 2020” so that was four years ago, “I had a beautifully redemptive VBAC and welcomed our boy into the world. Thank you so much for helping me achieve my dream.” Women of Strength, that review is for you. You and your stories and your participation in the community and on Instagram and all the places is seriously what builds this community up and helps these other Women of Strength find the courage just like she said and find the education.I'm so excited for you, Rachel. Congrats and as always, if you have time to leave a review, please do so. It helps other Women of Strength find stories. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Emily. Let's get into this. So you have four babies now. Emily: Yes. My oldest is about to be 7 and my youngest is 8 months or so. Meagan: Okay, so you were having your first C-section as I was pregnant with my VBA2C baby. Emily: Yeah, it was 2017. Meagan: When you had him? Emily: When I had her. I had three girls and then my youngest is a boy. Meagan: Yes. My VBA2C was in 2016 so just right before, yeah. Awesome. Okay, well I'm going to turn the time over to you. Emily: Sure. So my first pregnancy, I actually found out I was pregnant on my honeymoon when we were in Mexico. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Emily: Yeah. I was stressed out and working out a bunch and all of this planning the wedding. I expected my period to come while we were there so I'm like, “Oh, it's going to be the worst. I have all of these white clothes and I'm going to be on the beach and I'm going to have my period.” It just didn't come so it was right at the start of our honeymoon. I was like, “Let's take a test. I don't want to be drinking margaritas for the rest of the week,” then of course, I was. We came back from the honeymoon with another big announcement. I feel like a lot of people's stories is that you didn't know any better and you just showed up at the hospital and you did what the doctor said. I was the exact opposite at that point. I was reading all of the things. I read the Ina May book. I had a midwife at a birth center and I was going to the chiropractor constantly. I was doing all of the things to be ready to give birth at the birth center without medication and all of that. That's just not how it ended up. I think I was around 36 weeks and she was breech. I was going to the chiropractor all of the time trying to get her to turn. I was doing Spinning Babies. I was doing acupuncture. I was going upside down all of the time. I was finding swimming pools to do handstands and all of the things. I did moxibustion where you smoke–Meagan: Uh-huh, on your Bladder 6. Emily: She was still breech so my midwife set me up with the breech guy. People come to him from all over to do breech vaginal deliveries so I started seeing him. This was when we were living in Houston so I started seeing him and we did all of the things to try and get her to turn and ended up having a version. I went in. I had an epidural. They manually turned her and then afterward, they were monitoring me in the room and the nurses were like, “Okay, well do you want to be induced now?” I was like, “Nope. I've got a plan. I'm going home.” So I left the hospital after that. She stayed head down and then I went to 42 weeks and at about 42 weeks, I went into labor but my labor was weird. I was getting contractions but there was no break between them. It was just constant, squeezing pressure. I was texting my midwife asking, “I don't know what to do. I can't time them. There is no in-between.” It was mostly my back and after, I think it was 3 hours and I was like, “I can't do this. This is too weird.” I didn't have any guidance for what to do if you're not able to– they weren't broken up at all. Meagan: Were you dehydrated at all? Emily: No, I don't think so. I'm not sure. We finally went into the birthing center and it stayed that way for a really long time. We were there throughout the night. I was on a birthing ball and my husband was just elbow into my back for hours. I couldn't sleep because it was just constant pain. I tried the Rebozo scarf. We did all kinds of things while I was there. I will say though, I should have had a doula because my midwife kind of just left the room and was gone. She was somewhere in the center probably sleeping. I don't know. She would come in every once in a while and we were really just left to our own devices in there. We had done I think it was a six-week class. We went in every week trying to prepare. Yeah, we were just in this room together in the middle of the night really tired and in a lot of pain not knowing what to do to get this going. At one point, I was on an IV. She had given me all of the pain stuff that they can give you. At one point, she was like, “I've done all of my–” I wish I could remember. Meagan: I've exhausted all my tools type thing. Emily: Yeah, I've given you as many doses as I can in a time period. We did the catheter. That came out at some point. I think it was Monday when I went in there and then Wednesday when I ended up leaving there. At one point, she was checking to see. She was looking at my cervix and my water broke. There was a bunch of meconium and it was green crazy. She just looked at me and was like, “I think it's probably time for you to go.” I got back in the car in rush-hour traffic in Houston and headed to the hospital. There was a nurse in the back seat with me holding my IV bag. My husband drove us there. She had called the doctor who did my version so I had already met him and known him and known that he was pretty progressive as well doing breech vaginal deliveries and I know he did breech twin deliveries. He was a very cool guy so I felt good about that. We went. He was like, “All right. Let's do an epidural. You can sleep. You can relax and all these things.” That's what we did. I think I had the epidural for 8 hours and I was at 6 centimeters. They were like, “Okay, what about Pitocin?” I feel like they did give me a lot of time and I hate the saying “give me” but they gave me a lot of time and by the end of it, I was exhausted. I was done and ready to get her out. I only made it to 6 centimeters after all of that. It was 3 days of labor. By that time, just get her out of there. She was almost 10 pounds. She was big. Yeah. The C-section, that all went fine. I found recovery to be especially hard. My body was already so tired. Meagan: Exhausted. Emily: Exhausted. I wasn't prepared for it. I didn't expect it to be as painful as it was, but yeah. I know some people kind of just pop right up after and are moving around. That was not my experience. That was my first. I feel like I had 10 experiences in one. I did the midwife birth center thing. They tried to get my labor going with an epidural. I had already been there for an epidural once so by the time I was getting the second one, it was whatever, and then the C-section also all in that one pregnancy. Yeah. I feel like it was three births in one.But yeah, then we got pregnant with my second. I talked to my midwife again. She was like, “I don't do VBACs,” so the first person I called was the guy who did my C-section and my version. I said, “I want to do a VBAC.” He was like, “All right.” He was very cool about it and awesome. It was another really easy pregnancy. I got to the end. I was 41 weeks. Meagan: So you carry longer. Emily: Yes. I was 41 weeks with her and I went in for an appointment and they did a sonogram and I was like, “Please can you check my cervix? I just have to know where I'm at.” Yeah, I hadn't dilated at all and he was like, “Well, your sonogram's estimating that she's going to be 10 pounds also.” My mom had been in town at that point. They were trying to be there for the birth and helping me with my toddler and she had to leave the next day because my sister was being induced in Dallas. She had been staying with me for that whole last two weeks and it was like a now or never she's going to be gone. I'm already 41 weeks. I was also teaching and so every day, I was walking into work so pregnant. 1000 comments like, “You're still here? You're still pregnant?” It just felt like I was sick of it. Then hearing the 10 pounds, I was like, “All right. Let's just have a C-section I guess.” He left that up to me. I feel like he would have if I said. He wasn't even doing cervical checks at that point. It was me who asked for it. He left it up to me and he agreed when I said, “Okay. I guess we'll just do a C-section.” That one was different because it was scheduled. We went in the next morning. It was easy, breezy, and a little bit better of a recovery since I wasn't already so exhausted at that point. But yeah. I had a newborn and a toddler and a C-section again. It was rough. It kept opening because I was picking up my toddler. I went back to work I think when my second was six weeks old. Yeah. It was a lot. Those were my first two C-sections. Very different experiences for both of them with the same doctor. Then COVID happened and I finished the school year teaching online when COVID happened and my husband was working in oil and gas. We decided we were going to move to my parents' ranch. I finished the school year online from there and he was working with my dad. My dad does custom home building so that was something he wanted to get into. It was kind of the perfect segue out of there. Meagan: Mhmm. So where were your first two babies born? Emily: Houston. Meagan: In Houston. For people who are interested in breech, are you willing to share that provider's name? Emily: Yes. His name is Dr. Alfredo Gei. Meagan: Okay. Emily: Yeah. I mean, he was great. I don't know if he's still working or not down there, but he was awesome. He was a very, very cool guy. He was very calm, very respectful, friendly, and all of the things. Meagan: Yeah. Yes, good. Emily: Yeah. We moved up to my parents' ranch in Glen Rose, Texas. I finished the school year online. I decided I would stay home with my two kids. I think by the end of that summer, we were ready to have our third. It was perfect timing. I was staying home. We had my parents there. My husband had an easier work obligation working with my dad and all of that so I got pregnant with my third. That pregnancy was wild. We had a lot going on. I guess it was my first experience having a pregnancy that didn't go super smoothly and whatever test and all of the normal things you do like blood testing if you choose to do that. Everything came back weird so I'd have to go in and retest. I think at one point in the beginning, they thought she might have Down Syndrome so it was like, “Well, you can do the amnio to find out or you can wait until that anatomy scan.” I spent that time just waiting until 20 weeks to find out if she had Down Syndrome or not. I tried to do the gender test, one of those home ones. My first two were a surprise and with her, I just wanted to know. I needed something. I wanted to know what was going on in there. We did one of those gender tests and it came back inconclusive. Whatever could go wrong was going wrong with the pregnancy. I had found an OB/GYN who was VBAC-friendly who worked with a group of midwives so it was him and a bunch of midwives. I started seeing him and them because I thought– oh, I didn't even mention. When I had my second baby, they predicted her to be 10 pounds. She was 7 pounds. It made me so mad. It made me so mad. Meagan: Okay, so now I have a question for you because we talk about third-trimester ultrasounds. At 41 weeks, that is normal because they do non-stress tests and all of those things. Would you have chosen a different situation or would the scenario be the same because of your mom and convenience and all of that? Emily: That's a good question. I would like to say that I would have at least given myself a couple more days at that point, just a couple more days to see maybe. I always think, What if I had gone into labor in that next couple of days instead of the C-section? Would she have come out easier being 7 pounds and not 10 pounds? Of course, I thought, Maybe it's my pelvis. Big baby, small pelvis, and all of these things. I don't know. It's hard to say. I was really ready to have her. Meagan: Absolutely and you were given an opportunity. That goes to speak where you are in your pregnancy. That's a vulnerable state. That's a very vulnerable state. But you had her and it was an okay C-section and your mom was there and all sorts of things. Emily: Yeah. She came out and then they brought me back to the room and my mom was there. She got to meet the baby then drove all the way back up to Dallas and my sister had hers. They are a day apart. Meagan: Aww, that is so fun. Emily: Anyway, with my third, I was seeing him and I had some weird blood testing results and weird stuff happening at the beginning. It was the end of COVID sort of so COVID started around spring break. I got pregnant around that summer and by the next spring, it had been quite a while but hospitals and stuff still had all of those weird rules in place about people being in the room and all of the things. It was the tail end of that. My husband got to come in for the anatomy scan. He was there with me in the room when she did all of the scanning and everything and then he had to leave when the doctor came in. He went and waited outside in the car and the doctor came in and my first question obviously was, “Did you see any Down Syndrome markers?” They said, “No.” They didn't see that, but her head circumference and her cerebellum were measuring in the first percentile. The normal range is 1-100 and she was right there on the cusp of being abnormally small. He dropped that bomb on me while I was in there by myself. He waited until my husband had left. He told me that I was going to need to go and see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist and then I could come back after that. I left that appointment just in shambles not knowing what was going on or what to expect or what that meant and then I had to wait for an appointment to see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist. At that point, I just threw the whole VBAC idea out the window. It was all about what was going on with the baby and keeping the baby healthy and all of those things. My mom is a NICU nurse so I was like, “Well, I'm going to give birth at the hospital that she works with because if my baby goes into the NICU, I want her to be there, and all of these women that I had known her working with for 30 years.” I went to see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist. I switched providers and hospitals and I went to where my mom was working. I went in and they measured her cerebellum for the rest of my pregnancy. It was every other week or so I would go in and they measured. She stayed on that very tail end the entire time. I want to say that she might have reached the 6th percentile by the end in growth so it was still pretty precarious not really knowing what the deal was there. But by all accounts, she was healthy. They weren't giving me any kind of diagnosis or suspicions about anything. She kept falling in the normal range which meant they weren't going to do any further testing. They could have done an MRI or something on my stomach at one point but they didn't do any of that. I think around 34 weeks, I had an appointment and I was just like, “You know, if we're good to have a VBAC, I still want to do that.” I just looked at my provider and was like, “This was my plan. I don't see why it still can't be my plan. I've got two toddlers at home. I really can't have another surgery. I don't want to do that.” She was like, “Okay. Awesome.” I was expecting a fight. Meagan: You're like, you do. You really, really do. You expect this, “No” or “But, well–”. Those are the things that you automatically assume so when you have a provider who's like, “Okay, cool,” you're like, wait what? It throws you off. Emily: Yeah. I left there with a skip in my step. Meagan: I bet you did. Emily: Right after that, I contacted a friend of mine who is a doula and I started working with her. She shared your podcast with me so I was listening, listening, listening to as many episodes as I could in those couple of weeks and it was very helpful. I'm not a confrontational person or even a person who previously was good at advocating so I was mostly listening. I already knew what the hospital situation looked like. I already knew what a C-section looked like so I was really listening for how do these conversations happen with doctors and what does that look like when you're advocating for yourself? What are the words that I need to use? I listened for a lot of those kinds of examples of this is what I can say if she says this. This is what I can come back with or suggest if this happens. So that was very helpful for me to just go in and can we do a Foley? Can we do a Cook's? Meagan: To feel prepared to have that conversation. Emily: Yeah. I know at one point, they wanted to schedule an induction and I said, “Well, what if I just don't come?” She was like, “Well, we can't drive to your house and bring you,” kind of response. “What if I don't want to do Pitocin and all of this? Can you do a Foley or a Cook's?” I really came into those appointments with more of a two-sided conversation and not just “We're going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this.” I remember I got there at my 36-week appointment and my nurse was like, “Okay, go get undressed.” I didn't get undressed. I just sat there with all my clothes. She came back in and I was like, “I don't want that. I don't want my cervix checked.” Meagan: Good job. Emily: Yeah, she didn't know what to do with that. She was like, “I think she's going to want to look.” I was like, “Well, why?” Meagan: I don't want it. Emily: “I don't want to know. It's going to get me in my head. What's going to change if I'm 36 weeks?” Obviously, that was the norm there to start doing that at that point. What happens if I'm 1 centimeter? What happens if I'm 3? I'm still going to go home. I remember that was the first time I did something out of the norm there. I didn't even say the whole doula thing since it was the end of COVID. They were still working out who was allowed in so I asked for a doula and they didn't know if they could even have them so we were asking the hospital for hospital policies and calling up there asking all kinds of questions. By the time we did show up, everybody there was like, “She's here. She's here.” My mom worked there too so it felt a little bit like maybe everyone else was walking on eggshells with me because– Meagan: Because of your mom too. Emily: Well, my mom too. She was working that day so I probably couldn't have had her if she had come in as an extra person with us, but she was working and so she just showed up in our room in her scrubs and everything. I went into labor. Meagan: What gestation on this one?Emily: I was 37 weeks. Meagan: Whoa! So way earlier. Emily: Yes, way earlier. It was Easter. I started having contractions during the whole Easter thing. I'm hiding eggs struggling around the yard and I went to bed that night thinking, This feels like it's it. They were not painful but they were stronger than the regular Braxton Hicks so I went to bed and I think at 3:00 or so in the morning, they started waking me up. I tried to keep sleeping until 6:00 in the morning. I woke my husband up and was like, “You've got to figure out getting the kids to school and stuff. We're going to be going into the hospital.” It was about an hour drive. So I got in the bath. My doula told me to get in the bath and she gave me some different positions and stuff to do so I did all of that and that sped things along a whole lot. I did some curb walking and then yeah, I showed up at the hospital ready to have her and I want to say I was in labor there for three or four hours. I asked to speak to the– is it the anesthesiologist who does the epidurals and stuff? Meagan: Yep. Emily: I told her that I wanted a walking epidural. A lot of people don't know that there is a range. You can have it on full blast or you can have just a little bit. She gave me a very light epidural. I was able to still move in the bed and get in different positions. They had the bar over the bed at one point. They wanted to do an internal monitor at some point because my heartbeat and the baby's heartbeat, they could not figure out where to put the strap. I declined that. The nurse really just had to stay in there with it pressed to my stomach for hours. Yeah, that's what we did. I moved around. There was a peanut ball at some point and then yeah. They checked my cervix and my water broke. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but I then had another water break at a cervical check and things went pretty quickly after that. I think I pushed through three contractions. Right before I started pushing, my OB came in and said she was leaving and that another doctor would be coming in. I was like, “Does he know? Is he cool?” I was so confused. But yeah, he came in and he was great. He asked if I wanted a mirror. I know that he was using oil and he had a hot compress and whatever. Meagan: That's awesome. Emily: He let me pull her out so I reached down and I grabbed her. It was all very cool. We were blasting Enya's Sail Away. It was a whole vibe. Meagan: I love that. Oh my gosh, I can just picture it all. Emily: It was very easy. Hardest pregnancy, easiest labor and birth. Yeah, she came out. I would say she slid out, but pushing wasn't hard. I could see what was happening. I don't know. I felt very comfortable. Meagan: Good. Emily: I felt ready. Meagan: Good. At the end, was anything going on with her? Emily: Yes. That's another whole long story. She didn't pass her newborn hearing screening so when they do the hearing test, it's a couple of days after you have the baby. She didn't pass and they thought, Oh, she might have fluid in her ears and this and that. You'll have to go back and do it again in a week or so. We went back and did it again and she didn't pass again. We had to go to the Children's Hospital and they did another type of hearing test and we found out that she was deaf. Yeah, we went down the whole hearing aid route and that. Healthwise besides her hearing, she was having a really hard time holding her head up. I think we started having a PT come when she was 4 weeks because her head was just flopping all over. I guess she was diagnosed with a gross motor delay and so we did PT until she started walking at 2.5. We had the option of doing genetic testing and all of that to find out the reason for the hearing loss and we just kind of thought, What's it going to change? She's still not going to be hearing after all of these tests so whatever. We will just deal with what we've got going on right now. She got hearing aids at 4 months. We were going in and they would do all kinds of tests and stuff. She still wasn't responding to any sound so they wanted to do cochlear implants and in order to do that, you have to have an MRI. They look at everything structurally to make sure you are a good candidate for cochlear implants. They look at the nerve and the ear canal and all of those things. They came back and they said, “She can get them. She's a good candidate for that, but here's what we saw with her brain on the MRI.” She had white matter abnormalities which are just when they go in and they look, if you have all of these white spots, they indicate inactivity so she had a bunch of that that they couldn't explain and she had a cyst somewhere in there on some groove. I have forgotten all of the lingo at this point. They wanted to find out what the cause of all of those things were. They also didn't want to give her cochlear implants if they thought that these areas were going to grow so then we started doing all of the genetic and DNA testing. They wanted us to wait a year to do her next MRI and the cochlear implants to make sure in that year time period they didn't grow at all. We were just like, “We can't do that. One, we can't wait a year to find out if our child has this thing that's taking over her brain and two, it's a critical time for learning language and speech and all of those things.” We settled with 6 months so we waited another 6 months. We did another MRI. They checked. Nothing grew. She was still making growths and learned to crawl and all of those things. She just did everything about a year behind. Yeah, we did cochlear implants and we all learned sign language and that's how we communicate. Yeah, it's been 3 years now. She just started the deaf preschool last week. Meagan: Awesome. Emily: And now bringing it home with baby number four. Meagan: Baby number four who is 9 months old? Emily: Yes. He was a surprise. We had a lot going on with my third daughter. I've got Eloise who is 7, Violet who is 5, and Matilda who just turned 3. We thought, Maybe we'll have another. Let's see what's going on with her. Let's get her into kindergarten. Let's get her speaking and signing and all of these things. Then we had surprise baby number four. He ended up being a boy so that was fun. He was born in July of last year. Meagan: Okay. Emily: During all of that, our insurance had changed so I couldn't go back to the same OB/GYN and I went to another one at that same hospital. After I had my third, my hormones were just so wild and crazy and I had a lot of anxiety and obviously stress from all that was going on with her. I went in and I was like, “I just want to figure out what's going on with my hormones.” I remember the doctor asked me about my previous pregnancies and births and stuff. I told her, “I actually had a VBAC with Dr. So and so at this hospital.” She said, “Oh, if you want to do that again, you've got to go somewhere else because we don't do that here.” Meagan: But you're like, “But I did do it here.” Emily: I was like, “Don't worry about it because I don't want to have another one.” Of course, a few months after that, I ended up getting pregnant again so our insurance had changed yet again. If you have a baby who has special needs, you've got to get the insurance thing figured out all the time. We changed again. I was able to go back to the same doctor so when I was pregnant with him, I saw her and she was like, “I'm guessing you're going to want another VBAC.” I said, “You're right.” Same thing. I didn't let them check my cervix. I didn't have a late-term sonogram. I went into labor with him. I got induced. That's right. I got induced with him. Yeah, yeah. I was 41 weeks again. Meagan: Okay. Emily: I was so expecting another early one and then I got to 41 weeks and we started talking about inductions and stuff. I said, “If I come in and do this, I'm going to want to do Foley or something again.” So that's what we did. That put me into labor right away. I think I was 1 centimeter so they were able to put that in and it just went from there. I will say this about the fourth with the same provider. I specifically in my birth plan said, “No students.” I feel like I had already done all of that. I had already allowed all of them. I had paid my dues to society by letting them in. I had a student who did my epidural with my second. I was done. I was done with that. I didn't want a bunch of people in the room. When it was time to put in the Foley, she wasn't available so they were like, “Do you mind if a resident does it?” I'm like, “That's fine.” The question was raised about breaking my water. I think I was over 6 centimeters at that point when they were asking about breaking my water and I was like, “Eh.” I talked to my doula. She was there again. I talked to my doula about it and we decided that was okay to get things moving along. They said, “Oh, well she's not available still. Can a resident come in and do that?” I was like, “Okay.” Then it was time to push and deliver and a whole team of people came in. I was in the thick of it. I had another really low-dose epidural so I was still feeling a lot. I also thing one thing about the low-dose epidural managing pain and staying on top of pain is a real thing and you can reach a certain point where there's not much you can do about it where you are too far. That's where I got with that. Even though I had the epidural, I was too far along at that point for it to do much. I was like, “Turn it up. Turn it up.” It wasn't making any difference so just know that's something that does happen. When it was time to push, my doctor on her wheelie stool just scooted out of the way and someone else showed up. Meagan: What? Again? Emily: From the background and it was like, “Push, push, push!” The vibes were very different. I'm not sure why that happened because as far as I'm concerned, nothing was happening with me medically and nothing was happening with him medically to necessitate me to push vigorously. I had not been pushing for hours. I got him out in under 30 minutes. It felt like there was this need for me to get him out of there and get him out quickly. I'm not sure why that happened. So I guess it was a resident who was down there. There was no oil this time. There was no hot compress this time. There was more pulling during the pushing part and I ended up tearing fourth degree all the way. It was awful. Same provider, different experience. She's retired now. I wouldn't go as far to say that I'd recommend her to other people having a VBAC. I think she was more– what's the word? Not VBAC-friendly. Meagan: Tolerant. Emily: Tolerant. I think she didn't think I was going to get there so she said yes thinking that's not how it was going to go and we'd never get to that point where I was in labor there ready to push. That's what happened both times so it was thrust upon her also. She's not a bad doctor or anything. That's my one takeaway from that one. You're pushing and there's a lot of people in the room and there's a lot going on and you're very much focused. I wish that I or someone else in the room had said, “Oh wait, what's happening down there? Why is this person coming in? Why are we doing this so quickly? What's this need to rush?” Yeah. That's my takeaway from that one. At the end of the day, I had an easy pregnancy and an easy delivery. I did have another vaginal, but it also came with some bad as well. It was a bad recovery for me for sure. Meagan: You know, I think that's something to note. Like you said, you got your vaginal birth and everything, but not every vaginal birth always ends with an easy recovery or an easy experience or even a positive experience so it does help to have that support team but here you go. Still even then at the last second, you got switched out on like you did last time too. That's weird. I'm like, was she not confident in delivering babies or what? That's interesting. Emily: I don't know. I'm not sure. Of course, afterward, I'm like, If she had stayed sitting there, would I have torn as much? Meagan: Exactly, yeah. Emily: If I was pressured to go so quickly, would I have torn as much? I left that one feeling, What just happened? I talked to my doula afterward about it and she was like, “You know, I wish I had said something,” but unless we had talked about it before, for her to stop a doctor in the middle of what they are doing without me having already told her, “Hey, I don't want this,” it's weird. Meagan: It's a really tricky situation. As a doula, I will say it's very tricky when you're like, I don't like what I'm seeing, but she's not saying anything and didn't say anything to me before this. I would assume she doesn't like this, but at the same time, yeah. Like you said, it's tricky. You don't want to step on people's toes. You don't want to change the atmosphere. It doesn't sound like the atmosphere was exactly peaceful either, but yeah. Gosh. That's hard. Emily: Yeah. It was another unexpected thing. I hadn't prepared for that scenario. I had it in my birth plan that I didn't want students, but then I had said yes to them for these things, so I can see how we got there, but yeah. For those wondering, I pushed him out to Shania Twain's Man I Feel Like a Woman. There were some good vibes in there. Meagan: I'm loving all of your music choices. That is amazing. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm sorry that it was that type of an ending. I am happy for you that you were able to have both of your vaginal births. But it's such a good takeaway and a great note. Women of Strength, think about those things too even with pushing, what you are wanting. Talk about this to your team. “If nothing's wrong, if nothing is emergent, I need it to be this way,” because that is for sure tricky. I wanted to talk about way into the first birth. I wanted to give a couple of suggestions for people who are having a hyperactive uterus where the uterus is just too active. It's not releasing. Sometimes that can be a baby's position working through and trying to get into the right position and the uterus is trying to help but a lot of the time it can be due to things like dehydration or I know that sometimes if there's a UTI or an infection or something like that, that can cause a hyperactive uterus. Sometimes people just have hyperactive uteruses but with a uterus that is just not letting go like yours, something that a midwife a long time ago within my doula career suggested to a client of mine was called cramp bark. Cramp bark, yeah. It's a tincture and you can take it. It can try to help relax the uterus so if you are having really long prodromal labor or like Emily where her uterus just wouldn't give up and it was just constant– and you said it was in your back. Emily: I had that wrap-around experience. It was like, I'm in a whole lot of pain but it's right here in my back. It never eased up. No, and then I wasn't dilating at the same time after all of this time of being like that. I think it was definitely her positioning. She was sunny-side up by the time the C-section did happen. Meagan: That's what I was thinking. Were you dehydrated or was it a positional thing? A positional factor can do that. Sometimes the uterus needs to relax so we can work with position. I know you were working with position but your uterus wasn't giving up. Sometimes you can increase your hydration, but cramp bark and always, always, always ask your provider about it, but it was actually something that a midwife and I think Julie took it with one of her babies with her prodromal labor too and it helped her as well. I just wanted to bring back that note of if you're having that hyperactive uterus, there could be a few things like hydration, position, maybe it's an infection that is undetected or maybe you've just got a great uterus that likes to keep squeezing. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful stories. I'm so happy for you and congratulations. Emily: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Renowned Midwife, Ina May Gaskin, joins Erin to share her extensive knowledge and experiences in childbirth. In this informative episode, Ina May shares about the history of obstetrics and breech birth, the deliveries of her children, The Farm Midwifery Center, her books, and shoulder dystocia.  Connect with Ina: Facebook Books Connect with me: Instagram Website About Ina May: A certified professional midwife who has attended more than 1,200 births, Ina May Gaskin is known as the “mother of authentic midwifery.” Gaskin joined the Peace Corps after college and taught English in Malaysia for two years before returning to the United States to obtain her master's degree. During the birth of her first child in the 1960's, Gaskin experienced the terrible practice of having her child pulled into the world with forceps. The incident fueled her determination to find a saner way to give birth. A few years later, during a five-month long speaking tour with her husband, Stephen Gaskin, and more than two hundred young idealists, she witnessed her first birth, one of many that would occur during the trip. Because many of the women were without health insurance or money to pay for a doctor, Gaskin often assisted in births by default, eventually aided by the instruction and support of a sympathetic obstetrician. In 1971, the group purchased a large tract of land in rural Tennessee and established a cooperative community. Gaskin located a doctor willing to serve as a mentor and medical liaison, and the Farm Midwifery Center was born. During a stay in Guatemala in 1976, Gaskin learned a technique for preventing and resolving shoulder dystocia, a condition that occurs during birth when the baby's head is born, but the shoulders are stuck in the birth canal. After using the method with great success, she began to teach and publish articles about the method. Now referred to as the Gaskin maneuver, it is the first obstetrical procedure to be named after a midwife. Gaskin has lectured in numerous countries and is the author of several books, including Spiritual Midwifery (1975), the first text written by a midwife published in the United States. In 2011, Gaskin received the Right Livelihood Award, an honor bestowed each year by the Swedish Parliament; the award is often referred to as the “Alternative Nobel Prize.”

How does the experience of one birth influence the plans for births that follow? Today we chat with Emilee Petrill, and we pack a lot into a sub-hour conversation. Emilee has experienced a hospital birth with her first son Corbyn, a birthing center for her son Penn and finally a home birth for her son Moxy. She walks us through the processes and decisions around each of those experiences.  Then we get into the details of her home birth, and why she's thinking about a free/unassisted birth for a future baby.  Bonus topics in this conversation include Emilee's experience with consuming her placenta and why she's a big advocate for it, the 10,000+ oz of breast milk she has donated and how the Doing It At Home podcast and community has impacted her body image and sex life! Links From The Episode: Business of Being Born: http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/ Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: https://inamay.com/books/ Hypnobabies: https://www.hypnobabies.com/ Hypnobirthing: https://us.hypnobirthing.com/ Offers From Our Awesome Partners: Needed: https://bit.ly/2DuMBxP - use code DIAH to get 20% off your order Splash Blanket: https://bit.ly/3JPe1g0 - use code DIAH for 10% off your order Esembly: https://bit.ly/3eanCSz - use code DIH20 to get 20% off your order More From Doing It At Home: Send us your birth story: https://bit.ly/3jOjCKl Doing It At Home book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3vJcPmU DIAH Website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doingitathome/ DIAH YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pzuzQC DIAH Merch: www.diahpodcast.com/merch Give Back to DIAH: https://bit.ly/3qgm4r9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Katie joins us today to tell us about her two birth experiences in Germany. Although she strongly advocated for herself during her first birth, Katie was extremely mistreated. Her labor and horrible C-section experience left her with intense PTSD straining her relationship with both her baby and her husband. Katie knew that if she wanted to have another baby, she had to plan for an out-of-hospital birth. She continued to advocate for herself by not only learning the evidence but by showing it to providers and defending it. Though she wasn't able to find a supportive backup hospital, Katie labored beautifully at home with her husband, doula, and midwife until she knew it was time to transfer. When she transferred, Katie was able to go to the hospital she wanted to go to and was finally treated with respect. Her wishes were honored and she felt heard. Though this labor was also over 40 hours and had its own unexpected twists, Katie experienced so much healing from her VBAC. She was able to achieve the glorious feeling she hoped she would have from a home birth even in the hospital.  TOLAC in Germany ArticleEvidence-Based Birth Blog: Friedman CurveInformed Pregnancy - code: vbaclink424Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 04:41 Review of the Week07:27 Katie's stories11:14 Start of labor16:55 Going to the hospital20:22 Interventions29:44 Katie's C-section32:06 Preparing for VBAC34:34 Second pregnancy42:01 Labor begins47:11 Getting support from her birth team50:12 Transferring to the hospital53:32 Feeling intense scar pain56:23 Asking for the vacuum58:42 Katie's advice for listeners1:01:47 The Friedman Curve1:06:16 Trusting your intuition1:08:56 Doula supportMeagan: Hello, Women of Strength! We have a story for you today where a mama gave birth in Germany. So I love, love, love when we have out-of-the-country birth stories because we often get messages from people outside of the country wondering if VBAC is still possible and the answer is YES. 100% it is possible and we have our friend Katie today. Hello, Katie!Katie: Hi.Meagan: She is going to just be sharing her story showing that it is possible to VBAC. Now, one of the things that I actually really love about Katie's story is that it shows that things can change, and even when things change it doesn't have to be bad. I sit in that because I personally wanted to birth out of the hospital and when I was in labor, in my mind, if I had to transfer, I was for a little while telling myself that that was a bad thing. And that it wouldn't happen, or people would be looking down, or whatever. I was spiraling. I was just going through a moment in labor. But something that stood out to me with Katie's, is she talks about how after a really long labor at home, planned home birth, her intuition, which we talk about a lot, knew that she needed to make another choice in her labor and that was to go to the hospital. Right, Katie?Katie: Exactly. Yep.Meagan: And so I love that we can talk about how plans can change and that doesn't mean it has to be the be-all end-all. Is that how you say it?Katie: Yeah.Meagan: It doesn't mean it has to be over or it doesn't mean your chances of VBAC are done. If you are planning a home birth and you make the choice, or even if it was medically necessary, like sometimes it is, right? That doesn't mean that it has to be bad. And so I love that part about her story and that she listened to her intuition. And then also another highlight, is that intervention happened, right? And that sometimes in this community we fear the intervention. I understand why we don't all usually want the intervention, we just want it to be left alone. But sometimes intervention comes into play and sometimes those interventions help us get the birth that we wanted. And so I'm just going to end there because I want Katie to be able to share her story but those were a couple of things that, for me, as I was reading her submission, stood out to me and I thought were really important topics to touch on because plans can change and even when plans change, it's okay. 04:41 Review of the WeekMeagan: But I do have a Review of the Week so I want to review that and then I'll turn the time over to you Katie. Okay, so this is from our Google reviews, which we absolutely love. Even our Google reviews help people find the podcast, our blogs, our course, our resources, all the things. If you wouldn't mind heading over to Google. Google “The VBAC Link,” and leave us a review, we would absolutely love that. So this is from, I think it's Eimear. Sorry if I am butchering this name. They gave a 5-star review, so thank you so much. But it says that, “This podcast was my constant source of reassurance and inspiring stories throughout my last two pregnancies. I achieved my VBAC in 2021 and was empowered with so much knowledge and mental strength going into this birth because of The VBAC Link. I had my second C-section in 2002 which was not what I wished for but I do plan on having more children and know that VBA2C (vaginal birth after two C-sections) is a possibility for me because of this podcast. I continue to listen to your inspiring stories each time I hop in the car and I'm so grateful for all that you share. I hope to share my own redeeming story with you in time, too.”Thank you so much for that review. I love that you said that VBAC after 2 C-sections is possible. We see that a lot in our Q and A's. “If I've had 2 C-sections is it possible?” The answer is yes, absolutely, 100 percent. So if you want to learn more check out the podcast or head on over to thevbaclink.com and search VBA2C and you'll get to find more about that. 07:27 Katie's storiesMeagan: Okay, Katie! Welcome again. Thank you for being here. Katie: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to share my story.Meagan: Oh my gosh, me too.  And I know you've got your little one by you. So how old is your little baby?Katie: My daughter, Scarlett, is just shy of 5 months.Meagan: 5 months. Okay, so you're still pretty in the thick of it. Katie: Yes, still sleepless nights.Meagan: Yes, and you're coming from Germany. I don't even know what the time zone is there, but hopefully, you're not up way too early or way too late.Katie: It's like just late afternoon here.Meagan: Okay good, I'm so glad. Well I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories.Katie: Okay, great. Well, I'll just get started with my C-section story. My son, Charlie, is 2. He was born in 2021. I'm originally from the U.S. but as you mentioned, I live in Germany and I had been in Germany for about 5 years when I had him. And then as just some background, I'm actually an intensive care nurse and I worked in the United States as an intensive care nurse and then for a bit here and have since transitioned into the corporate world. I'm not like a labor and delivery nurse, but I have a lot of knowledge about birth from nursing school. I think there is a little bit of a misconception in the U.S. that everything is better in Europe, that they're more natural or that the healthcare is better, blah blah blah. I just want to say that has not necessarily been my experience especially working as a nurse. I can really see that the shortage of trained healthcare workers is significantly worse here. And there's kind of like, we have our issues in the U.S. too about making sure we're providing evidenced-based care. We try but it's hard to keep up and stuff. I would say it's even harder here and then doctors here are super paternalistic. So when I was pregnant with my son, I had that impression as I was going into it. And also, the way it works here is, you just go to a gynecologist for your pregnancy care and then you just go to the hospital to have your baby. You don't get to pick your doctor. There's just staff, so you just get who you get. I didn't really like that when I was planning my birth for my first pregnancy, but I was kind of like, well what else am I gonna do? That's the way it is. But I felt at the time really confident about my knowledge and that I'm pretty tough and well-informed, and I'll manage to get through it. This is just like the way it's going to be. Didn't have any thoughts about trying to do a home birth or another out-of-hospital environment, it was just like you go to the hospital and baby and go home. So my pregnancy was pretty good. I had the normal kind of aches and pains. There was some concern with my son's placenta. It wasn't functioning great but we didn't have issues from it, just extra growth scans and there were really no problems. He was due December 27th, so around Christmastime. I think if I had known I would have never gotten pregnant to have a baby around Christmastime because my impression was with the hospital, that they were really short-staffed when I ended up having him. 11:14 Start of laborKatie: So I ended up going into labor– he was born on the 22nd, so I went into labor on the 20th of December. I woke up around midnight with really bad back pain and I felt like I was going to have diarrhea. That's probably TMI.Meagan: I totally get that. Katie: Yeah I kept going to the toilet thinking I had food poisoning, and nothing would happen. I would go and sit down, and as soon as I would sit down I'd feel like I'd have to go to the toilet again and I would run back there. This kept going on and then eventually after a little while I had some bloody show and my mucus plug came out. And I was like, “Oh! This was the contractions.” I was not expecting it at all. It was just this stabbing pain in my back and I didn't feel like my uterus was really doing anything so I was kind of surprised. I was like, “I guess I'm in labor,” and it hurt so bad. People always talk about how it starts out kind of light and builds up, and it was really full force. Like I said, I kept going to the couch and trying to sit down and trying to get comfortable and I'd have to keep running to the bathroom. It just kept coming. I was like, “Oh my gosh, is this baby going to be born really fast? This seems pretty intense.” I was like, “No, no I probably have a long time to go so calm down.” I took a shower and got my birth ball out and started trying to work through it. At some point, my husband woke up and I was like, “I think I'm in labor. Go back to bed and I'll get you if I need you.” I labored throughout the night. But around 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, I started noticing contractions. They weren't quite as painful and it was spacing out a little bit and I was like, “Oh, maybe I should try to sleep.” So I laid down on the couch and I was able to kind of sleep in between these contractions. My husband woke me up a few hours later because I had my 39-week doctor's appointment. And I was like oh well we can just go to the doctor and have them check me there and just see how we're going. We walked to the doctor because I was afraid my water would break in the subway so we just decided to walk. But that didn't happen and by the time we got to the doctor, they had spread pretty far apart. I had waited in the waiting room for a while and I only had a couple while I was waiting.My doctor checked me and she said I wasn't dilated and then they did put me on the CTG there for just a little bit to just see what was happening and I didn't have a single contraction while I was hooked up on the CTG. But the second they took it off and I stood up again, it started again. But it was more how people describe early labor. It came every few minutes. It was totally manageable. I just had to take a few deep breaths. We ended up walking home and the rest of the day, that went on. I labored in the afternoon and I thought at some point I should try to take a nap, but every time I tried to lay down it would be really uncomfortable so I got up. Then my husband and I decided, “Well, this baby is probably coming. Let's go do some grocery shopping, get some snacks, and be prepared.” Katie: So we went grocery shopping and my parents were visiting. They were staying in a hotel, but they came over. We all had dinner together. I was convinced that it wasn't labor, and I was like, “This is probably just fake labor,” so I didn't want to tell them. My mom later told me, “We totally knew you were in labor. You did not fool us for a minute.” We made dinner, we all ate, and they left.It was only 7:00 or 8:00 PM and I was like, “Let's sit down and watch some TV and try to relax.” As soon as I sat down, the intensity really picked up and the frequency. I wasn't timing them, but I really saw that they were coming quite often and it wasn't comfortable to sit down anymore. I thought, “I've been doing this all day, almost 24 hours now. I think I deserve to use some of my coping mechanisms that I'd planned for.” So I had planned to listen to these hypnobirthing tracks and had bought a ton of really nice bath supplies to make nice hot baths. So I got in the bath and was just using this app to do the HypnoBirthing tracks and I found it really helped me and I was doing really well. And then after a while, my husband came in. I think he felt like he should be doing something too. I was like, “You can press start and stop on this app because it's really annoying to dry my hands off,” so he was like, “Okay.” He was there for 10  minutes and something popped up on the app that was like, “You should go to the hospital now,” and he started panicking. I was like, “I'm fine.” In my mind, compared to the contractions I had the first part of the previous night, my contractions were going to have to be at least like that or worse because I hadn't dialed at all, so I was like really mentally prepared this is going to be so bad. Right now I still feel fine. They were just coming close together, but I had no feeling the baby was coming. I felt fine.But he was just like, “Oh my gosh, this app is telling us we should go to the hospital,” and ugh. After a while of him freaking out, I thought, “Okay, let's just go to the hospital and do a check. They'll reassure him that I'm tops 2 centimeters dilated and he can relax and I can continue to labor in peace at home.” 16:55 Going to the hospitalSo we get packed up and drive to the hospital. They put me on the CTG and checked me. I'm 2 centimeters. Then after half an hour, they come in and say, “Well, we don't have any beds so we're going to have to send you to a different hospital.” I said, “Whoa, hold the phone.” In my mind, I'm thinking that I have at least 12 more hours of labor to go. I'm a first-time mom. And I was like, “I want to go home and labor. I don't want to labor in the hospital. I want to go home. Can't I come back at like 6:00 AM and check me again?” It was about midnight at this time. And they were like, “Oh no, you're not going to make it to 6:00 AM. Your baby is coming and will be here by morning.” And I was like, “Seriously?”Meagan: “It's midnight, I've got some time.”Katie: And I was like, “I really don't believe that.” But they were so insistent that I had to go to the hospital and they were even like, “We called an ambulance to take you to the other hospital.” Meagan: Oh my gosh.Katie: I was like, “I don't need an ambulance. I'm not dying, I'm just having some contractions. This is crazy, guys.” They were like, “Are you sure?” I was like, “No, I don't want to be separated from my husband and go in an ambulance. Absolutely not.” They were like, “Well, we're going to send you to this other hospital.” I said, “No. This particular hospital has a really bad reputation.” I said, “No, I don't want to go there. I want to go to–” my second choice was blah, blah, blah. They were like, “Oh, they're full.” I was like, “Okay well, my third choice is blah, blah, blah.” “Oh well, they're full too.” And basically, every other hospital in our city was full. I was just like, “Okay, great.” My husband's freaking out. I really don't want to go to this hospital but they're telling him I need to stay. I was like, “Okay, we'll go over there and I'll just get registered and I'll tell them that I want to go home and labor.” So we drive over and the whole time I'm like, “I don't really want to go to this hospital, but okay.” And then I told my husband that I had no idea where the labor and delivery ward was at this hospital. I had never been there. So I said, “Okay, let's park at the emergency room because usually this late at night, hospitals' other entrances aren't open.” We parked in the emergency room and nobody at the emergency room could tell us where labor and delivery was. And I was like, “What the heck?” I was the one looking at the map on the wall figuring out where it was, having these contractions. We walked there and we finally arrived. I had such a bad feeling there. It was kind of icky and old and gross, this hospital. They also hooked me up to a CTG and checked me. They told me that my cervix was completely closed and so I said, “Okay, great! I'm going to go home.” They started trying to put an IV in. And I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do I need an IV? I want to go home.” They also said, “No, your baby is coming imminently.” I was like, “That doesn't really make any sense.” In that kind of labor land you're so easily kind of–Meagan: Persuaded and convinced.Katie: Persuaded. And I also observed that I didn't have the support of my husband anymore. He was losing it basically. I thought, “Okay, I guess.” They had a bathtub and I thought, “Well, maybe I can take a bath here for a couple of hours and go home after that.” So we got in the bathtub and I really didn't like it. I'm not really a big water person so it really wasn't for me. So after awhile I got out. 20:22 InterventionsKatie: And oh, I forgot to mention. Before that happened, before they brought my husband back, the midwife was like, “Your cervix is like steel and we want you to take some medication to soften it.” She was like, “Don't worry. It's homeopathic.” I was like, “I don't want to take anything homeopathic. That's fake medicine. I don't want to take that.” She was super insistent. I was like, “Okay, let me see what this is. I'll look it up online and tell you if I want to take it or not.” She handed the pill to me and it was Tylenol with codeine. Meagan: What?Katie: And I was like, “Excuse me?” I was like, “This is not homeopathic medication. This is a narcotic.” She was like, “No, no. This is homeopathic.” I said, “No no. This is a narcotic.”Meagan: Like, “I'm not dumb.”Katie: That really shut me down. Also with this labor land, I was like, “Maybe codeine means something else in German?” I got super confused, do you know what I mean? In hindsight, I've given patients Tylenol with codeine hundreds of times. I know what Tylenol with codeine is. But in that moment, I got confused about it. I was in this labor land kind of thing. Meagan: Yeah. Katie: But it totally set off my fight-or-flight reflex because it freaked me out. “Is she lying to me? Or does she just not know? I don't get this.” I really told my husband that I wanted to leave and he was like, “Where are we going to go? Everywhere else is full.” And I was like, “Well, I'll just stay in the bath. I don't know.”At some point, I got out of the bath and I had been up basically the entire night before, just trying sleeping in between contractions. I wanted to lay down and rest. She came in and was like, “Oh no, you need to get up and move around.” She made us go for a walk around the hospital. This was probably 4:00 or 5:00 AM. I just felt so uncomfortable, I didn't want to be walking around the hospital. I wanted to be in my own little cave. So we went back and then she told me, “Well, you haven't had your baby yet so we're going to have to discharge you to the antenatal ward.” I was like, “Okay, at midnight when I got here, you said my baby was coming imminently and I had to stay and now you want to discharge me. If you're going to discharge me, I'm going to go home. I'm not going to go labor on an antenatal ward.” She was like, “Oh, let me talk about it with my staff at our staffing meeting,” blah blah blah. I don't know whatever came of that but I was so weirded out by it. Meagan: Yeah.Katie: And then like at 6:00 or so in the morning, she came in and they were again like, “Your cervix is as hard as steel. You need something to relax it.” Again she said, “I have something homeopathic for you.” It was Demerol.I again was like, “This is not homeopathy. These are narcotics.” I got really mad and I even said to her face. I looked her in the eye and I said, “It's appropriate to give patients narcotics or birthing women narcotics if they want them but you can't lie about it.” That's so unethical. That's not okay. I was so shocked by it. I had thought about it and I didn't really want to take narcotics. I'm intolerant of them. I've had some dental procedures and they make me really confused and I didn't want them during labor. But I thought at this point, it had been like 30 hours, and I thought, “Well, maybe it's time to try something.”My mom had always said when she had us that she would get a shot of Demerol and dilate to 10 centimeters in an hour from that. “Well, maybe I need that too. Maybe I'm like my mom.” I did consent to it but I felt like pushed into it. I kind of more consented to it because I wanted them to leave me alone. I told her again, “I'm really sensitive to narcotics. They make me confused. Please give me like the lowest dose.” I got my records later and I know now that it was the max dose and she had mixed other things into it so I totally became delirious. I could not cope with the contraction pain anymore because I didn't have this ability to be like, “Oh, I'm a flower, my cervix. Every contraction brings me one step–.” Being able to work my way through it was gone and it was sheer pain. They don't help me. It was just downhill from there. I didn't have the strength anymore to leave. At some point, they tried to make me take another walk. I was so dizzy that I kept falling over. Oh my gosh, if my patient was this dizzy, I wouldn't let them get out of bed but they were forcing me to go for a walk. They told us to leave the hospital and walk around outside. I remember standing at a red light and totally swaying back and forth clutching onto my husband so I wouldn't pass out. I was like, “I should not be outside. This is ridiculous.”So we went back and I'm not exactly sure what happened all afternoon. I forgot to mention we had a new midwife now. At some point in the afternoon they come in and say, “Well, you haven't had your baby yet. You're only a couple of centimeters dilated. We're going to start you on Pitocin.”Katie: And I said, “No, no. I don't want Pitocin.” They said, “Too bad. We're giving it to you anyway.” And I again was not in any kind of state to fight or protect myself. They started it and I didn't have any pain management at all. This was like 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon so it had been like 10 hours since I had that Demerol. My contractions were always that really bad back pain. It was so bad with the Pitocin. I ended up getting an epidural which was such a bad moment for me because I actually had more anxiety about getting an epidural. I have a fear of being paralyzed and I thought, “I absolutely don't want an epidural.” I ended up getting one and it didn't really work. They just kept turning the Pitocin up. And I kept telling them, “This isn't working. Can you get anesthesia here? There are things you can do to fix it.” They wouldn't do anything.They kept telling me, “If it doesn't work, it just doesn't work.” I was like, “That's not true. I know a lot about epidurals and there are a lot of things you can do.”At some point, I had realized that I hadn't peed in 12 hours and tried to go to the bathroom and nothing came out. I asked them in they could put a catheter in so I could pee. This midwife just kept ignoring me. I was like, “I really need a catheter.” I had felt really hot. I was like, “Can you take my temperature? I'm worried I have a fever.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. Katie: I also kept asking her if she would help me because I was laying in the bed, halfway falling out of it and I needed some help to reposition myself. I kept pushing the call light and she would come in and yell at me for pressing the call light. And after a few hours of this I finally had a little bit of fight back in me. I remember screaming at my husband, “You need to get me another midwife right now!”They must have heard us fighting outside because somebody else came in. I was like, “I need a catheter. I need someone to take my temperature and I need some help moving around.” So she catheterized me and there was like 500 milileters of urine in my bladder. She took my temperature and luckily that was normal. She helped me get up out of bed so I was sitting on a ball. At that point, I realized that the pump for the epidural was sitting right there. I remember turning to look at it and the pump wasn't even on. I was like, “I've been complaining. I have no idea what happened if it had been off the whole time or something, but it was supposed to be a patient-controlled epidural and it wasn't even on. I was like, “What is this?”At this point, it was midnight. I had been going on 48 hours now and only at like 4 centimeters dilated. They just kept telling me, The only way you're ever going to have this baby is if we keep turning the Pitocin up.” I kept asking them, “Are there positions we can do?”I also forgot to mention in the beginning that the people in Germany told me, “You don't need a doula in Germany because the midwives do all of that kind of stuff.” I never got a single suggestion on how to maybe reposition the baby or if there was anything. I kept asking, “Is he posterior? Is something weird going on?” “No, no. Everything's fine.” With these Pitocin contractions, I felt this pull in my pelvic floor. It felt like my body was fighting against it. I can't believe this is working. I can feel my muscle close with that. 29:44 Katie's C-section Katie: They told me that wasn't a thing, blah blah blah. My cervix had started swelling. And they were kind of like, “The only way you're going to have this baby is having a C-section,” and you know, that's just what happened. I ended up consenting to it because I was so afraid that they were going to do something to harm me. There had been like so much–Meagan: Weirdness.Katie: Weird stuff. I'm not going to die because childbirth is dangerous but because these people don't know what they're doing and they're somehow going to hurt us. And the C-section was just awful. I could remember on the way down, they knocked a bunch of the equipment over that was attached to me. When they started operating, I had a strip on my right side where I could feel everything. I was like, “I can feel what you're doing there. I was screaming.” The birth of my baby was the worst moment that I could imagine. It not joyful or happy at all. What has happened? What has happened to me? How did this happen to me? I just like couldn't believe it. Meagan: Yeah.Katie: What else could I have done differently? I don't know. How did everything get out of control? It was just crazy. I ended up having really bad PTSD afterward that I would have nightmares about the surgery. Postpartum was so rough because I had no connection to my baby and I honestly resented him almost in some ways where it was like, “If I hadn't had you, I wouldn't have gone through this.” It was just really hard to work through.I was also so mad at my husband. I really thought, “How could you? Where were you? You were supposed to be my support. You were supposed to help me.” I don't think he really got it. I kept telling him how much he was going to have to help me. “I really needed you to be strong in that moment and you just weren't.” It was a really low point in our relationship, too. 32:06 Preparing for VBACKatie: But he promised me that if we ever had any other kids, he would try to make it up to me. “Let's try to work through this.” And I got some treatment for my PTSD and I ended up taking Zoloft. I obviously listened to the stories on VBAC Link and other podcasts and I realized this is not unique. This is happening to a lot of people. I really knew that I wanted to have a VBAC. I never really thought there was something wrong with me. I thought it was the way I had been mishandled and that they didn't follow guidelines and that it was really inappropriate care I received. If it had been better, maybe I would have been able to do it. Anyway, I had a lot of anxiety about doctors and I didn't think, “If I have another baby, I want to go to the hospital. What am I gonna do? If I ever have another baby, should I go back to the United States to do it? Can I review clinical literature from my job?” And just from listening to podcasts and your story, Meagan, and the others, I realized an out-of-hospital birth is probably the best option for me if I ever have another baby to have a VBAC. I found a paper from 2019 about birth in Germany, about VBACs in Germany. And the success rate was like 40% in the hospitals to 60% in the birth center and 80% if you planned a home birth. They said that the outcomes for mom and baby were similar. So I said, “That's it. We have real literature that we're going to have a home birth if I ever have another kid.” Before I even got pregnant, I researched home-birth midwives in the city. I started speaking to a doula before I even got pregnant. And I had signed with her and she said that even if she wasn't available when I got pregnant again, she would help me find someone who was. I actually ended up getting pregnant really fast. We got pregnant on the first try and that was about– my son was 14 months when we got pregnant again. They're 22 months apart. 34:34 Second pregnancyKatie: I was like, “I'm going to do this. This is super important to me. I really need to do this.” I listened to VBAC Link stories and other VBAC stories every day. There's some other podcasts that I listened to. I read all the books like Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and Childbirth as a Rite of Passenger by Rachel Reed and I was just only thinking and talking about birth. That was the only thing I paid attention to in that time.I read all the guidelines from every major organization and I read a lot of the literature that they used to come up with the recommendations. I had pretty strong opinions then that I would be okay with. But mostly I just wanted to be left alone. I didn't want any interventions because in my mind, with my sons birth, the intervention is what had ruined it. Katie: I worked out a lot with my first pregnancy, too. But with my VBAC baby, I did the Mamastefit fitness program.Meagan: Love Gina.Katie: And at the end, there's a lot of focus on relaxing your pelvic floor. I started seeing an osteopath. We really worked on trying to relax my pelvic floor. I mostly focused on stretching. I kept doing the HypnoBirth stuff. The pregnancy went on. I registered at a hospital just as a backup just in case we needed to transfer. I went to the registration appointment at this hospital. They were supposed to be the best VBAC hospital and they claimed to be the best VBAC hospital in the city, but the doctor there was so anti-VBAC and just talking about, “Oh, you are causing all of this risk if this happens.” I was really kind of shocked by it and at one point, she was like, “Oh, we need to do this ultrasound,” and I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you want to do this ultrasound for?” She was like, “Well, we need to make sure your baby isn't too big and that your scar is thick enough.” I said, “Well, I know that those growth scans, you might as well flip a coin so I'm not interested and also, there is not any research supporting the use of ultrasound measurements of the scar with predicting the risk of rupture so no, I decline.” She said, “Well, no you have to do it.” I said, “No, I don't and I'm not doing it unless you can tell me what evidence you use to come up with these recommendations and what are the cutoffs? How thin is too thin is too thin for the scar? You have to be able to tell me that and you have to tell me what evidence you've used to come up with that definition and I will not consent to the ultrasound until you tell me that.” She just couldn't do it. She kept just going on about like, “Well, you have to. You have to.” I said, “I don't have to do anything. I don't consent. If you don't know the answer, find someone that does.” My doula was with me and she ended up going. This doctor ended up going and getting their boss. She came in and my doula had told them something about how we were just planning this as backup for a home birth. They were like, “You absolutely cannot have a home birth.” I was like, “I absolutely will. That is my choice and you can't tell me what to do. I'm doing that.” They were just like, “No, no. You can't do that. You can come here and have the birth.” I said to them, “I know I'm going to need a long time to labor. I was in labor for 48 hours with my son. I need a lot of time. There was nothing medically wrong with my with my son. It was just this pure, bureaucratic nonsense. I was pressured into it because I took too long. I know that and I need support to get through a long labor and it's safer for me to be at home and it's safest if there is a midwife at home with me that can check on the baby and make the recommendation when it's time to transfer. That's the best course of action.” They were like, “No, no. You can only plan to birth here.” I was like, “Well, if that happens, then I'm going to be home alone without anybody there to check on the baby. How is that safe?” They just kept saying, “You can't do that. You can't have that here.” Katie: We ended up not having a backup hospital. That was kind of a tough conversation but I was really proud of myself that I had stood my ground so much. Just a lot of women talk about how you always want to be polite and non-confrontational. I was like, “I'm not going to be that way. I'm going to demand answers. I'm not going to do things just to be nice.” I was very proud of myself that although I was basically banned from that hospital, I was proud of myself for sticking up for myself. I really felt and the literature also supported that homebirth was a safe option for me, but we went into it not having a backup hospital. 42:01 Labor beginsKatie: I'll move on to the actual labor and birth with my VBAC baby. So that also started around midnight. I woke up feeling kind of funny. I went to the bathroom and a little bit of amniotic fluid came out. I was like, “Oh, great.” I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do in that situation so I got on my birth ball and bounced. I listened to an episode from Evidence-Based Birth about the premature rupture of membranes. I listened to that and was like, “No, no. I feel best about waiting for labor to start on its own.” I kept having some mild cramping throughout the night and then around 5:00 AM, I went to the bathroom again and I had some bloody show. Around 9:00, I texted my doula and my midwife just to let them know. My midwife, Julia was like, “Let me come over. I have a lot going on today. Let me just come over and see how you are doing.”I was like, “You can, but I'm not really having any contractions. I'm just having some cramps.” She came over and we chatted. She offered to do a vaginal exam to see where I was at. I said, “No, I'm not really in labor yet. I don't want to risk it.” She left and then a few hours later, I started having “contractions”. I was so excited because they were actually contractions, this wave feeling in my uterus because with my son, it had always been this stabbing pain in the back. I'd never felt my uterus doing anything. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Everything I did worked. I'm having real contractions.” I was so excited. We just kept working through them. We made a plan to have my son go over to my sister-in-law. I was convinced that oh, maybe labor won't really start. I don't know what I was thinking, but my husband and I made a plan to just have a nice dinner together and send our son off so if I went into labor, he would have somewhere to stay and if not, we would have one more nice evening together before the baby came. But I was in denial. The contractions kept ramping up throughout the day. Finally, at dinnertime, we were eating our dinner and my husband was like, “Do you want me to call Johanna?” Johanna is our doula and I was like, “No, it's way too soon. It's only been a few hours.” He was like, “Are you sure?” Then I realized. I took that as a sign that he needed the support. I was like, “Great. Let's have her come over.” I totally thought she would come over and be like, “Yeah, she's fine. Let's go to bed and we'll take care of this later.” She came over and supported me through some contractions and was like, “Hmm, how would you feel about having your midwife come over?” I was like, “it's way too soon. It's only been 7 hours. The contractions are too far apart and too short.” She was like, “No, I've been timing them and they are over a minute long and three minutes apart.” I was like, “I guess you can call her if you want to.”They called her and she listened to me having some contractions on the phone and was like, “Yep, that sounds like active labor. I'm coming over.” She came over and we all labored together. Katie: At some point, I started having back labor again. During the day, it had been this really nice wave feeling, but then the back labor started to come in. Around 11:30ish, my midwife checked me and she told me that my cervix was really posterior and that the baby was actually just pressing on the lower segment of my uterus. I didn't want to know how much I was dilated, but I knew that it was probably not much based on what she was saying from that.Later, after the birth, I found out I hadn't dilated at all. She actually manually moved the cervix down and held it under the baby's head and had me do a couple of contractions like that. It was awful. She really recommended that I try to lay down as much as possible during contractions because her theory was that something was pulling my cervix back so if I was moving around too much, it would keep pulling it back. It was so painful to lay down. She ended up leaving to go get some sleep. I kept laboring like that throughout the night. I got super nauseated. I was throwing up. It was just the only way I could get through contractions was to sit on my birthing ball. I had hung a sling up and I would hold onto the sling because I just could not have anything touching my pelvis. It felt like along my SI joints, they were going to just split in two.We labored throughout the night like that and they really did a really good job supporting me. They made sure– I had told my husband that his one job was to make sure I was eating or drinking and that after every contraction he should offer me something to drink and he did that to the point of annoyance during labor but he kept doing it and they did a really good job. 47:11 Getting support from her birth teamKatie: Around 7:30, throughout the night, the back pain was getting worse and worse. Around 7:30, we decided to call the midwife and have her come back. This is probably the first moment that I realized, “I think I'm going to need some help here.” I had read so many books talking about how childbirth is a physiological process and everyone can do it. You can do hard things. I really believed that, but it was really that I was starting to realize that, “Yeah, the majority of women are going to get through it fine, but I'm in that minority that really maybe does need some help.” I didn't say anything at that point. My midwife came over and again, I didn't know it at the time, but she checked me and I hadn't progressed at all throughout the night. My cervix had slipped back again into a posterior position. She did that thing where she held it in place again and really had me try to be laying down as much as possible to again with her theory about how my cervix was being pulled back. It was just so painful but it worked.I started progressing which was really exciting, but at the same time, I started having this weird contraction. It felt like my body was doing a kegel uncontrollably and involuntarily doing kegels during contractions. I could feel my pelvic floor closing up on itself. I was like, “I thought that was just because the Pitocin was on too high for my first birth, but this is my own natural oxytocin and I'm having this feeling again.”I kept laboring throughout the day. They somehow found a TENS machine for my back pain, but anyway, around 11:00 or noon, I said to them, “I think I'm going to need some help. I'm not sure anymore.” I had been so adamant during my entire pregnancy that I absolutely do not want to transfer to the hospital. Only if there is a medical reason and they were like, “No, you are doing so good. Let's stay home.” They really kept working with me, but by 4:00 or 5:00, I was like, “I think I really just need to accept that I need help.” We did a lot of massage and position changes. We did all of the Spinning Babies stuff. I could not get my pelvic floor to relax. It had been at this point 30 hours and I was like, “I did everything right this time. I feel safe. I set up a beautiful birthing space. I'm not scared. I want to have this baby and it's just not working. I just need to accept that. I don't know. I need some help.” 50:12 Transferring to the hospitalKatie: We went to the hospital and I thought I was going to be treated like crap because I was a home birth transfer and I didn't register ahead of time. We were just so lucky. We got the greatest people and I remember– I'm going to cry. They placed the epidural and I was finally doing some intake paperwork with the midwife that was going to be taking over and I was like, “I know you think I'm crazy, but this is so important to me. I have to do this.” She said, “Of course, you're going to do it.” It just felt like, I don't even know. It was just like, “Yeah, I am going to do it.” We talked to my anesthesiologist and I was telling him about what had happened at the last hospital. We talked about how I was really scared about another C-section because I had felt it during my first one and I didn't want another C-section. We talked about it. I was like, “You know if I need to have another C-section, I want to be put under. I don't need to experience that again. As much as I want to be awake for meeting my baby, I don't need that to feel it.” We had an agreement that if it ended up going toward a C-section, he would put me under. I felt like it was such a night and day difference. The staff at this hospital was again, way more modern. The staff was so respectful and always asked my permission to do things. We always talked about the plan and what we were going to do and explained the benefits and risks and all of those things.I had to get a Pitocin drip. I understood that with getting the epidural but they were like, “We won't turn it up too high. We will go slow. We'll probably have to break your water at some point, but we're going to wait until as close to the birth as possible.” They really laid out a plan. They checked me 2 hours after I had gotten the epidural and I had progressed to a 7. I just burst into tears. I had just gotten the epidural. At that point, I wasn't sure if it was the right choice or if I had just basically signed up for a C-section by going to the hospital. I didn't know at that point, but since I was at a 7, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I am going to make it.” It took another 10 hours, but I made it to 10. Throughout the night, I had the same issues with the epidural not working, but this anesthesiologist worked his butt off. He came in and he tried so many things like repositioning it and trying different medications, trying different types of concentrations. He tried so many things to help me and I could really tell that he felt bad that he couldn't totally take the pain away. Just that alone was enough. I was like, “It's okay. As long as my pelvic floor is relaxing, I can get through it.” 53:32 Feeling intense scar painKatie: At some point, around 4:00 AM, they gave me a really big bolus because they wanted me to get some sleep but I couldn't feel anything. I was completely numb. They said, “Okay, why don't you labor down a little bit? Your baby looks fine on the monitor. Everything is okay.” Around 6:00-6:30, I woke up and that bolus had completely worn of. This back pain that I was having was in that moment a thousand times worse because her head was down in the birth canal. I could feel. I remember checking and I could feel. I could only go about a fingertip in and could feel her head. It was so intense. My pelvis felt like it was on fire. I thought I was going to burst into flame. They had me start pushing and she was right there, but she was just not descending anymore. At some point, I remember they had me try to get onto my hands and knees. I was like a wild animal so I can't really remember everything, but they had me get on hands and knees. I realized, “Oh, I don't want to be on hands and knees because I can't brace my scar when I'm pushing,” then I realized, “Oh, my scar is kind of hurting.” Then I was like, “Why is nobody else worried about my scar hurting?” I was like, “Oh, I haven't said anything to anybody that my scar was hurting.” It was getting more and more painful. I was finally like, “Oh my gosh, my scar, my scar. It hurts so bad.” The midwife got a doctor to come in and they did an ultrasound and the doctor said, “Your scar looks fine.” It just kept hurting and it was hurting more and more. They were cleaning up the ultrasound machine and the pain wasn't going away in between contractions. Even though they were saying everything was fine, I just felt like things weren't fine. I almost had an out-of-body experience where I envisioned a future where my uterus ruptured and I got rushed out to the OR and it was really nasty. I was like, “No. I can't let that happen,” so I started yelling at them. I was like, “A vacuum, I need a vacuum.” They were like, “Are you sure?” I was like, “Yeah, yeah. I really need a vacuum. I need a vacuum right now.” I remember the doctor asking the midwife, “Well, how long has she been pushing?” In my mind, it had been 10 minutes and they were like, “Oh, it's been over 2 hours.” I was like, “Yes. Yes. Now. I need my baby to be born now, like right now.” 56:23 Asking for the vacuumKatie: They got a vacuum and pulled her out. I can't describe it. Although there was so much intervention and stuff, I felt like it was this home birth experience that everyone talks about because I got this crazy flood of oxytocin and I just bawled my eyes out for an hour and I felt like you know when you are a kid and it's Christmas morning and you've been waiting for weeks to get your Christmas present and you finally get to open it and you're so excited? It was like that feeling times a million. It was just an incredible feeling. She was there. I didn't know at that point if she was a girl or a boy so I got to look and I was like, “Oh my gosh. It's a girl.” It was just a really incredible moment. Meagan: Yes. So amazing that you were supported and that they listened to you. Katie: Yeah. I mean, my husband and I have talked about how this is the hospital that I should have had my son at. I don't know if I would have had a different outcome. I might have still ended up with a C-section there, but I don't think I would have had the same amount of trauma because the staff was so respectful and they were very capable and competent. It made just such a huge difference. Meagan: Absolutely. It sucks that a lot of the time, it comes to that– where we are and who is in that space. Katie: Exactly, yeah. Meagan: You know, we can't always control that which is a little nervewracking sometimes. We've just got to trust, but I love that you– I mean, honestly even with the first birth, like you said, you got to a point where you weren't in your brain-brain because you were in labor land, but you were really amazing at advocating for yourself overall. I just want to say congrats on that because that's really, really hard to do. Katie: Thank you. 58:42 Katie's advice for listenersMeagan: I don't know if you have any advice for listeners to be able to have your voice be heard or find that space inside of your soul that can come out and say what you need when you need it, and how you need it, but that's a really hard thing to do in labor. Katie: Yeah, I would say that I think it really made a difference that the doula was there. I think it created another layer of protection where she could run interference too and take on some of that burden. I think it was a little bit of her. I was like, “A vacuum, a vacuum, I need a vacuum.” She was the one like, “Yes, yes. She is asking for a vacuum. She wants that baby to come out now.” I didn't have to carry on the fight anymore because there was a moment in that when they said, “Everything on the CTG looks good.” I could have said, “Well, if they are saying that everything looks fine, maybe I could keep trying,” but I felt so strongly in myself that the baby needed to come out. Since I didn't have to keep fighting for myself, I verbalized what I needed and she carried the torch basically I would say, it really made a big difference that she was able to keep saying, “Yeah, yeah. She wants the vacuum now. Let's get it.” I guess preparing for a VBAC, you have to read all of the stuff and know because people will come and tell you things. You really need to be able to come back and say, “Actually, the guidelines don't support that.” I think it helps too if you have real citations. Do you know what I mean? You can actually say, “There is a paper that is supportive of this or not supportive.” You have to be able to have that knowledge almost and feel really confident that you know it to have those discussions with people as well. Meagan: Yeah, having the evidence is– not only knowing the evidence but having the evidence. That was something​​ that was really important to Julie and I when we were writing the course was not only giving the evidence but sharing the citations for those. Yeah. I mean, going back to the scar thickness and this and that. You were like, “Listen, no and no. I'm not going to do either of these things,” and they really couldn't come in with the evidence. That was so clear that the evidence wasn't there. They just wanted to bully you into making the decision that they wanted you to make. Katie: Right. Meagan: So having that knowledge and of course, having the evidence in general, but having those actual sites within links on your phone or in a manual or whatever. Katie: Exactly yeah. Meagan: So then you can be like, “It says this right here. Do you see anything different? Do you have anything new and updated?” Katie: Right. 1:01:47 The Friedman CurveMeagan: So talking about new and updated within your story, one of the things you mentioned that you wanted to talk about was the outdated and poor quality research that was done by the Friedman curve that is still being used. Do you want to talk about that at all? Katie: Yeah. That was something I came to the conclusion when I read a lot of papers and in my first birth and in my documentation, the diagnosis was “prolonged labor and failure to progress”. I was like, “What does that even mean?” I couldn't really find a definition in the literature of what prolonged labor was and what I realized was that it's way more that there are economic reasons to speed up labor, not clinical reasons. That's why it was so important to me. I was like, “If I need to have my baby by C-section, I will proudly walk into that OR if there is a medical reason or a clinical reason, but not a bad management reason or not because it's just taking too long.” I just couldn't find anything really convincing and one of the big criticisms of the research that Friedman did was that it was only a very narrow population at one hospital in the 50s. In the 50s, everyone was getting twilight sleep and all of the babies were being pulled out with forceps. It really can't be applied to us as modern birthing women. Yeah, there's an idea of on average, women take so long, this 12-24 hours. That's about true, but there are corner cases like mine or if I remember correctly from your story. You were also in labor for a long time. Meagan: Mine too, yep. Katie: Just because you're in labor for a long time doesn't mean that it's bad. The question is how is Mom doing? Is she healthy? Is baby healthy? If the answer is yes and also if Mom is up to keep going, because I think there are a lot of stories on The VBAC Link Podcast too of women who decided, “I'm only going to labor for so long and if I'm not dilating, then I'm going to call it.” I also think that's great that some women make that judgment call of, “I really want a VBAC, but I just don't want to do it for days and days.” I had the opposite decision for myself where I was like, “I'm going to do this until my baby comes out unless there is a clear medical reason that we need a C-section.” Meagan: Right. Katie: Yeah, I think it's just important to know that there's actually not great research for what is normal and just because you are outside of normal doesn't mean it's bad or dangerous. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. We're going to provide the little bit of a risk factor in Germany specifically with the different locations and then Evidence-Based Birth who we love and adore, they actually have a blog on the Friedman's Curve. They talked about how in 2014– you guys, it's 2024 so 10 years ago– ACOG came together with the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, so MFM, and they published new guidelines on labor progress. They said their new “normal” of labor is longer than the Friedman definition. There is more room for flexibility such as when an epidural is being used. In addition, new timelines were developed to define when labor progresses abnormally slowly. They are recognizing that sometimes labor does progress abnormally in their minds. That's abnormal to them. New terms were defined with purpose and they talk about how it's changed from 4 centimeters to 6 centimeters and things like that. I mean, this is a really wonderful blog. I'm going to drop it in here but I love how you talked about that. Just because it doesn't go as someone thinks it should go or the lack of really true evidence all around shows it should go doesn't mean it's bad. It doesn't mean something is wrong and it doesn't always mean you have to do something different. It just means you may need more time. 1:06:16 Trusting your intuitionMeagan: Now, you may want to do something different. You may feel you need to do something different like transfer to the hospital. These are things where we have to tune into that intuition and think, “Okay, what is my body telling me? What am I supposed to be doing?” But long labor, you guys, kind of sucks sometimes to have to keep going and keep going but at the same time, it's so amazing that your body can do that and is doing that. We have to trust that. We have to trust that process and trust our intuition. Katie: Yeah, and I have to say my first labor was 48 hours and I had the C-section. It's a trauma and this one was 45 hours and it was super intense the entire time basically for at least 38 hours of it I would say, but I can barely remember it or even connect to it anymore because I was just so happy to have the VBAC. I always had this attitude that it's just a day for me or a few days that it's going to be tough, but it's going to be so great afterward and that's really the attitude that I had. For me, that's been true. Postpartum is always hard, but I have so much more resilience this time and I really had that attitude that “I can do it. I can do hard things,” and I can. Meagan: You can. Yes. I love that you pointed that out. Yeah, it's a few days but it's a few days that led to this cute little baby that's joining us today on the podcast. Well, we will make sure to have the links for those two blogs that we mentioned and the study. I just want to say congratulations. Amazing job. Katie: Thank you. Meagan: Really good job of advocating for yourself. To the point of having a doula, even when those doulas aren't speaking out loud for you, they have this space that they hold that makes you feel like you can and then they support you and rally behind you. I love that you mentioned that because I mean, even with myself with my own birth as a doula at that point, having doulas, I truly felt like that, like I was able to have the extra voice that I wanted to speak. It came out so I'm so happy that you had your doula and I'm so happy for you and congratulations again. 1:08:56 Doula supportKatie: I just wanted to mention too with my doula if she ever hears this, she was with us for 38 hours and just– Meagan: Oof, so long. Katie: We had a contract. There was an exchange of money, but at the same time, I would have understood if she had said, “I've been away from my own children for so long. I need to go check on them.” She really stayed with us and helped us that entire time. It has just been the biggest gift that somebody would set aside their own needs to make this difference in our family. I don't know– I wasn't very good at expressing that to her. I feel like in the moment, I didn't have the words for it, but I hope if there are any other doulas listening, the work that you are doing makes such a huge difference. Meagan: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Katie: I also wanted to say thanks to everyone who has ever shared a story about actually having a uterine rupture because listening to those stories, they all always mentioned that they felt that something wasn't right and having heard those stories really gave me the confidence to say, “Things aren't right. I need to get my baby out.” I know it's scary, but if anyone is planning a VBAC, I think it's important to also hear those stories as well because it really empowered me to get the help that I thought I needed and to stand up and advocate for that. Meagan: Yeah, I love that you touched on that because those stories, even with repeat C-section stories, are really hard to listen to or allow in your space when that's not what you are wanting, but a lot of those times, if you can find the space to join in on those episodes, they really do bring a lot of education as well. I think if it does end in a C-section or something like this, it can also bring some validation and healing weirdly enough by knowing these episodes. Katie: Yeah, I agree. Meagan: Yeah.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Macy's first birth was a scheduled C-section due to breech presentation that required follow-up exploratory surgery due to an unknown cause of internal bleeding. Unfortunately, her surgeon had accidentally nicked an ab muscle. Macy's recovery was very difficult.With her second, doctors were nervous about her chances of VBAC and would only let her try if she showed up in active labor before 39 weeks. Otherwise, she would go in for a scheduled C-section. Macy agreed and her birth ended in another Cesarean. Her birth was beautiful and her recovery was smooth, but it still wasn't the empowering experience she hoped for. Macy hit the ground running during her third pregnancy. When doctors were not supportive of a VBA2C, she knew home birth was her best option. She found a midwife who was willing to take Macy on as her first VBA2C client! We know you will absolutely love listening to this birth story. Like Meagan said, “It is so beautiful. It is so peaceful. It sounds like one of those births where you close your eyes and you envision birth and how peaceful, beautiful, and calm it really can be.”The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C Practice Bulletin - VBACInformed Pregnancy - code: vbaclink424Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 03:44 First C-section with internal bleeding and a follow-up exploratory surgery09:04 Second pregnancy11:37 Scheduled C-section and getting pregnant again shortly after18:44 Finding a supportive home birth midwife23:24 VBA2C prep during pregnancy27:46 Labor begins32:42 Breaking her own water and pushing for 17 minutes36:47 ACOG's statement on VBA2CMeagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. We are so excited to be sharing an HBA2C story and if you don't know yet what HBAC means, that's home birth after Cesarean and then HBA2C is home birth after two Cesareans. I feel like that's kind of funny. It's never really a term I used because I wasn't at the hospital and I wasn't at home, but I also kind of feel like I sort of had an HBAC. It was at a birth center. Maybe that's a term, birth center birth after two Cesareans. I don't know. But obviously, VBAC after two Cesareans are near and dear to my own heart and today we have our friend Macy from California sharing her HBAC story and just before we started recording, we were talking about how one of her messages that she wants to give is that you can do this. Right, Macy? You're just like, you can. People can do this. Macy: For sure. Meagan: Yes. Yes. I am excited to hear your story and then I wanted to also just talk a little bit at the end about some evidence on VBAC after two C-sections. So if you're wondering more about VBA2C, make sure you stick to the very, very end even after the story because we'll talk a little bit about that. 01:24Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week and this is from Jenna. It is actually on our How to VBAC: Ultimate VBAC Prep Course. She says, “I just started but have already learned so much. After two C-sections and one where my doctor made me think it was very risky, I was terrified to try again. With this course, not only have I learned the truth about VBAC, but I am excited to attempt mine in August.” That's coming up. I am so excited for Jenna. Thank you so much for the review and the support, of course, of taking the course. I am so excited that you are getting educated and definitely keep us posted. 03:44 First C-section with internal bleeding and a follow-up exploratory surgeryMeagan: Okay, cute Macy. Welcome to the show. Macy: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Absolutely. I'd love to turn the time over to you and share whatever message you feel is important for our beautiful Women of Strength listeners. Macy: Okay, well like with all VBACs, my story begins of course with my first pregnancy. During my first pregnancy, I was pretty healthy. I didn't love being pregnant, but I was excited that we were starting our family and I got to– I can't remember– 34 weeks maybe, 35ish, and baby was still breech. They offered me the ECV procedure, but they told me I would have to do it around 37-38 weeks and I was worried about it being so early before my due date that she would turn again. I was scared. They got me scared. They don't really present the ECVs as something that should work. Meagan: I know. I know. Macy: My midwife with my third pregnancy was like, “I wish you would have done it,” but they talked me out of it so I decided not to do it. Come 40 weeks, she was still not flipped, but I wasn't in labor so another thing is I wish I would have just waited to see because maybe she would have flipped in labor. Meagan: Sometimes they do. I actually recently had a client last year in 2023 that did have that. She was scheduled for her version and then she went into spontaneous labor so she actually went in pretty early because she was like, “Oh my gosh. My baby's breech. I was scheduled the next day for a version,” and they were like, “Baby's head down.” So it definitely happens. Macy: With my third one, she was sunny-side up. She was posterior, but I could feel her turning and getting into position. But anyway, I'll get there. I'll get there. I had my C-section scheduled. My daughter, Alayna was born 10 days before Christmas in 2018. She was perfect. She was 6 pounds, 13 ounces. I was not great. After my surgery, I came out. I was in the PACU and my blood pressure was dropping crazy low and my heart rate was spiking super high. I was ghost-white and they were like, “We don't know what's going on.” Long, long, long story short, I was having crazy internal bleeding. Meagan: I was going to say, were you hemorrhaging? Because that sounds like hemorrhaging. Macy: I was hemorrhaging. I was bleeding internally, but it was from having surgery. It was not anything to do with baby or birth. It was just surgery. So what we discovered is they had accidentally nicked an ab muscle and it was bleeding. 24 hours after my daughter was born, I had to go back in for an exploratory surgery and I was put under anesthesia completely again. They had to cut back open my layers and start over. Thankfully, they didn't have to cut into my uterus again, but they did open me back up and stop the bleeding, cauterize it and I mean, my recovery was just horrible. Meagan: Not great, yeah. Macy: I mean, thankfully I only had one baby so it was just her and my husband is amazing. I could not ask for a better partner, but it was just hard. It was hard to accept that, to grieve the birth I had dreamed of my whole life, but it never occurred to me that I couldn't have a VBAC. My mom had me via C-section and my three subsequent siblings were all VBAC. So when someone said to me at 12 weeks, I recovered. I was back at the gym and someone from the gym was like, “Oh, so you have to have all your babies as C-sections now.” I was like, “Wait, that's a thing still? We're still doing that?” I was like, “No. I'm going to have a VBAC.” I never even thought about it. I immediately was like, “Oh, so this is going to be a thing.” That's when I found you guys and I started listening before I was even pregnant with my second one, but when I did get pregnant three years later with baby number two, I probably binge-listened to every single episode. I was like, “I'm doing this.” 09:04 Second pregnancyMacy: I switched providers just because I didn't have a great experience so I was like, my postpartum care, I didn't care for my pediatrician so I just switched everything. But because I was with a new provider, I had a really difficult time locating my surgical notes. My new providers wanted to know if my first C-section was done with a single or double-layer closure. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Okay. Macy: Because of course, if it's single, it's going to increase my risk for a rupture. I at this point was already like, the risk of rupture is so low. I am not worried about it. Breech baby is a great candidate for VBAC. Meagan: And the evidence on that is really not solid on which one really is best. There are some that show double may be better, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your rupture rate skyrockets because you have a single layer. So they are focusing on something that didn't have a ton of evidence. Macy: Right. I was like, “There is just not enough research to justify all of these C-sections.” But because they didn't understand what had gone wrong and why I had to have a second surgery even though I told them a million times it wasn't anything to do with my uterus. It wasn't a me problem. It was a doctor's problem. They were just like, “We just don't feel comfortable with TOLAC.” And you know, it's always TOLAC. It's never just a VBAC. Meagan: I know. Macy: But they didn't want to do anything. They didn't want to offer ultrasounds. They just were not willing to take a chance even though it was a really good chance. So basically, they were like, “The only way you are having this second baby VBAC is if you come to the hospital and you are in labor and it's time to push.” I mean, that's kind of scary to someone who doesn't know. I mean, now that I've done it I'm like, “That's what I should have done,” and that's what I tell my friends. You don't go to the doctor until your contractions are two minutes apart because they try to scare women out of their VBAC. 11:37 Scheduled C-section and getting pregnant again shortly afterMacy: So I just didn't really stand up for myself. I just agreed like, “Okay, I guess.” I told myself, “If I go into labor before my scheduled C-section at 39 weeks, then that's the way God wants it and I will have my VBAC.” Obviously, that never happened and 39 weeks is pretty early now knowing especially when due dates are just guess dates. Meagan: Very important note that you just gave there. Macy: Yeah. I had my baby at 39 weeks. She was perfect. I mean, my recovery was– she was another 6 pounds, 15 ounces so they were almost the same size. That was Reagan. Recovery was a lot better but still, I had a 3-year-old at home. Going from one to two was pretty good for me. I have a big family. That was great. But it was still not the empowering birth that I wanted. I did feel– I don't want to say I didn't feel empowered because C-section is badass. It's hard. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm, yeah. Macy: It's not the easy way out ever. There is no easy way out of birth. I do want to preface that and say if that's what ends up happening and you only have two kids and you only have two C-sections, that's okay too. I knew we weren't done having kids. I wanted the birth I wanted. I did not plan to get pregnant with such a short turnaround time. I was almost 8 months postpartum when we found out we were pregnant again. We were a little surprised. I mean, we are grown adults. It shouldn't be that surprising. Meagan: But still, it can be a little alarming when you weren't mentally preparing for that. Macy: I had just finished breastfeeding. I was just starting to track and all of these things so I was like, “Oh no.” But that was kind of when my work really started for me because I was like, “Okay. We are doing this again and I'm going to do this the way I want. This is going to be how I want it to go. This is my story and this is going to be an essential component of who I am as a woman and as a mother going forward for the rest of my life. I need this to go the way I want it to go.” I wanted it to go the way God wanted it to go of course, but I was like, “I'm going to take more control.” Meagan: Can I add something to that? Sorry to interrupt, but there are so many times that I hear people, I read on social media that people are getting after moms and parents who are like, “I want this birth. This is what I want. This is what I feel I need,” or what you are saying. “I want it to go a certain way.” They are like, “Why do you have to focus on what you want? It's not what you want. It's what's best for the baby.” They are railing on these people. I want to stop and say that what you said is okay. I feel like maybe a little passionate about that too because so many people were naysayers to me. “It does not matter what you want. It's what's best for the baby.” It's like, well guess what? That's also maybe what's best for my baby. Macy: Right. Meagan: It's okay to say, Women of Strength, “I want this birth. This is what I want.” And you deserve that. You deserve to go after what you want. Macy: It is hard and being a mom is hard. Meagan: Yes. Macy: You can start out in a way that you feel empowered. It is life-changing. It really is. Meagan: It is. So sorry for interrupting, but I just wanted to give a little tidbit that it's okay for people to want what they want. I wanted a white vehicle. I was going to find a white vehicle. It's okay to get what you want and to put forth energy and to say that out loud, “I want this VBAC. I'm going to get this. I want it.” Macy: You spend almost 10 months thinking about this and praying about it whereas you talk to– I mean, it wasn't as important to anyone else in my life except for me. That was okay. Especially the doctors and the providers, I'm just another person to them and yes, there are some really great providers out there and they do care, but they are at their job. They are doing their job. Well, my job is to be a mother. That's my job, so doing what serves me well was birthing my baby the way– Meagan: Having a VBAC. Macy: Having a VBAC. So I really hit the ground running. There were a few girls in my town who had recently had homebirths. They weren't VBACs, but they were VBACs so I reached out to them– shoutout to my girls Megan and Emily. They were so helpful because they were real people. I reached out to you guys and I just wanted to know, “Hey, what is the research on really close pregnancies?” because I wasn't going to hit the 18 months. Meagan: The 18 months. Your babies were going to be 17 months apart, right? Macy: 17 months. So that was even annoying too because I was like, “I'm right there. Come on.” You guys were like, “Go join the Facebook Community group.” I was so glad that I did because I was just finding story after story after post after post. Not only were so many women having VBACs after two+ C-sections, but they were close together. Some were like, “Mine were 12 months apart.” I'm like, “Oh, I'm good to go then.” It was so nice having that community. I was even able to join a community within the community of everyone who was due at the same time as me so when we got close, we had a group message and everyone was like, “Is it happening today? Is it happening today?” It was so nice not to be alone in that. I also had to find a midwife because I knew my providers were not going to be supportive of VBAC after two. I actually had a hard time finding a midwife which was also annoying because I was met with some medwives who were just really going to stick to that 18 months. 18:44 Finding a supportive home birth midwifeThen I happened to just find a woman who was like, “I've never done this before. You are my first VBAC after two,” but she was a midwife who was very knowledgeable. She had done lots of home births. She had done VBACs, but not after two. She was like, “If we don't start accepting these patients, how are we ever going to change the status quo? How are we ever going to make a change?” Meagan: Boom.Macy: Right. Meagan: It's so true though. Macy: I was like, “Okay. Statistic me, please. I would love to be a statistic for the positive.” The only thing was I was like, “I can't be one for a hospital birth, but it's fine.” Meagan: That's okay. That's okay. Macy: So I found Sarah. I started my visits with her. I had to travel an hour to my visits. It wasn't the worst thing ever. Meagan: That's a commitment though. That's a commitment. Macy: Towards the end, she came to me a lot more which was so nice. So nice. Meagan: That's really nice. Macy: Then we did a couple of phone calls, but we also texted all of the time and would FaceTime. It was just so personal. I also received co-care with another third local provider. I did that because my midwife wanted to have me get ultrasounds to check my uterus. She wanted to check for previa and we wanted to check for– what's the other one? I'm blanking. Meagan: Accreta? Macy: Yes, so she just wanted to be aware. Meagan: Placental issues and make sure the placenta is out of the way and all is doing okay. You're actually clear to have a VBAC. Macy: Yeah. Meagan: Which is very responsible of her. Macy: I received my co-care. I would go in there. I don't know. I almost had a chip on my shoulder because I was like, “I don't really need you guys,” kind of. I didn't leave those appointments feeling like I wanted to cry like I did with my second pregnancy because I knew that I had something better planned. So it wasn't as upsetting, but they were pretty rough on me. I had expressed my interest in a VBAC after two and you have to see the series of providers within the office. I had only one who was a little bit younger which was interesting, but he was the only one who was like, “Yeah. I really support this and the birth you want to have. I'm going to give you a referral to UC San Francisco and when we get to the end, I want you to start care there and plan to have your birth there.” He was the only one who was like, “I support the birth you want to have.” Everyone else was pretty awful. They told me, “If you TOLAC and your uterus ruptures, you will die and your baby will die.” I was like, I will never forget getting in my car and texting my midwife and being like, “Can you believe that he just said this to me?” I was just like, “Are you God? Do you know?” How could you say that to someone? “You will die.” Because that's not the case at all. That was interesting but I knew. Like I said, I knew I had a backup plan in the back of my mind. It was just eye-opening for me more than anything. It wasn't upsetting. Meagan: Someone that doesn't necessarily know the evidence of that, it can be terrifying. Macy: Yeah. Yes, totally. And you know what? It's frustrating because a lot of people just trust their providers. I'm a very skeptical person. I'm very conspiratorial, so I'm always researching things and looking into things, but people who are not prone to that are just going to trust what the doctor says because they went to school and they are smarter than them. It's so unfortunate that it's causing a high C-section rate for no reason. 23:24 VBA2C prep during pregnancyMacy: That was a bummer but anyway, throughout my pregnancy, I did all of the things. I did my VBAC Link course. I loved it. It was great to have that. I did a Lamaze class which was really fun. It was funny because we were the only parents in there with other kids. One other lady was a VBAC, but the rest were all first-time parents. They were like, “What are you doing here?” I'm like, “This is new for me.” Again, shoutout to Modesto Birth and Beyond. They are fantastic. They have a great set of doulas. I'm now on a friendly basis with them. They were great to have and they were really supportive of my whole journey. Let's see what else. I did a Hypnobirthing class. I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. I mean, I walked and I stayed in shape. I kept doing CrossFit. I did CrossFit for all three of my pregnancies so I kept on. I ate healthy. I drank lots of water. I did all of the things. But I knew that when it came down to it, my mind was going to either make or break me.Fast forward to 41 weeks and I was getting very, very anxious. Meagan: Were you getting anxious because you were getting ready to have a baby type thing or were people giving you some grief that you were over 40 weeks? Macy: By the time I was 40-41 weeks, the grief and the doubt and the naysayers that I got were kind of gone. Most of the people in my life were supportive. I always got that question of, “What if this happens?” I live 5 minutes from the hospital, so I was not too worried about it. I was more anxious of, I was ready to meet this baby. I was the biggest I'd ever been. Third baby, only 17 months apart. My belly was huge. It was hot. I was swelling. I was ready to be done, but I also had never labored before. I had no clue what my body was going to do. Was I just going to go into spontaneous labor at 40 weeks? At 39? I had no idea. So every day that passes, I'm sure you remember that too, every day was a whole week where you wake up in the morning and I would just cry, “I can't believe I'm still pregnant.” Meagan: I remember going to bed and I was like, “Tonight could be the night,” and then I'd wake up and I was like, “It wasn't the night,” then that night, I'd be like, “Maybe tonight,” and it just kept happening. Macy: So annoying. I had so much prodromal labor. I had contractions. I could time them and I was like, “Oh, they are 20 minutes apart. They are for sure going to get closer,” then I'd go to sleep, wake up, and be like, “Okay. Here we go again.” Let's see. So on a Monday, I did acupuncture. Then on a Wednesday morning, I was 41 weeks and I went and got a massage. I got some acupressure. You never know if these are the things that really get things going, but sometimes they do. I got a massage and she gave me some moxibustion so I did that. You light it and do it around– my mom was like, “This is so hokey.” I'm like, “If it works, who cares?” I was trying everything. But I didn't want to be induced and I hadn't had my membranes swept yet. That was going to be the first intervention that my midwife and I agreed on because she was like, “Legally in California, you can't go past 42 weeks and have a home birth.” I was like, “Okay. I've got one week. One week and this baby will be here.” 27:46 Labor beginsMacy: That Wednesday morning, I went and got my massage and by 2:00 in the afternoon, I was like, “Okay. Things are starting to pick up.” I started having pretty intense contractions. I was having to– I could still talk. I was still taking care of my two little girls, but I was starting to feel really uncomfortable. My mom went home, then she came back. My husband gets off work at 3:30 and it was 2:30. I was feeding my youngest one a snack and he was like, “Do you want me to come home early?” I was like, “No, I can totally make it until you get home.” I had a contraction where I leaned over my kitchen counter, and then I was like, “Okay. Maybe just come home now.” He came home. I just didn't feel it. I was starting to feel irritated by my kids and I was like, “I just want to go in my room and watch a show on my laptop. I just want to be alone.” I didn't necessarily want them to leave yet, but I wanted to be alone and I wanted to know that they were taken care of. He came home and he was taking care of them. He was like, “Do you think this is it? Let's call my mom.” I was like, “Yeah. I think this is happening and I think it's going to be soon.” I just didn't know how long I was going to labor. It was a mystery. My mother-in-law came and picked up my little two daughters. That was kind of sad watching them leave knowing the next time I saw them, we were going to be a different family– a better family, but a different family. Yeah. I just labored at home. It was so nice not having to go anywhere. I took a shower. I had some snacks. I wasn't super hungry, but I definitely started drinking my electrolytes and started preparing to be hydrated. Meagan: Smart. Macy: I was like, “I'm preparing to run a marathon so I need to gear up.” I didn't nap. I've never been a great napper, but I laid around and watched some shows, then I didn't text my midwife right away because I had been bugging her so much with all of my prodromal labor that I was like, “I'm not going to text her until it's really happening.” But by 6:00 or 7:00 PM, i texted her and was like, “Just so you know, my contractions are about 10 minutes apart.” As they got closer, she was like, “Okay. I'm going to come now.” Once the sun started setting, it was getting a little bit more intense. We set up my birth space at home. I set up my pool. Well, I didn't. My husband set up the pool and we laid out all of the sheets on the couch and hung my birth affirmations. Actually, they had been hanging. My birth affirmations had been hanging for a couple of weeks so I started having them memorized, but we turned on the twinkle lights and I started listening to the Christian HypnoBirthing app which was fantastic. I just had such a peaceful labor. I don't know how else to describe it. My mom came in and then my sister-in-law came over then my other sister-in-law came over. They just talked around me. I could hear them, but I was just in my space. I labored and my water never broke for a very long time. I got in the pool at one point and then I got back out because my husband was like, “I think that being in the pool is slowing down your contractions a little bit. I want you to get out and walk.” I got out and started walking down the hall then I got really sick with a contraction. I happened to already be laboring backwards on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm going to throw up.” I jumped back off the toilet so I could throw up in it then my midwife was like, “Okay. You're in transition now. You've got to be.” I hadn't had any checks at all this whole time either too so I had no clue what I was even dilated at. I was just completely trying to trust my body and just know that when it was time, it would be time. It really was. My body just did what it knew to do. 32:42 Breaking her own water and pushing for 17 minutesMacy: Like I said earlier, I felt her move into position. I got back in the water and I felt so relaxed in the water. I was drifting off in between contractions. Meagan: Oh, that's awesome. Macy: It was so calm and I just kept telling myself, “Breathe her down with every contraction,” and just all of the things I had been practicing, I was finally able to put into use. That was really cool, then I had a couple of urges where I was like, “I feel like I can start pushing soon.” I was like, “Do you want to check me now?” As soon as she stuck her finger, I was like, “Oh, no. No. Get your finger out. It's time. She's coming.” She was like, “Yeah. She's ready. She's right there, but your waters haven't broken yet.” I was like, “Can I break them myself?” She was like, “Yeah,” so I reached in. I gave it a pinch-twist and in the water, I broke it. Meagan: Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Macy: I felt the padding around her head, then I just felt her head. I felt her hair. I started pushing when it was time to push and I pushed for 17 minutes. It was perfect. Like I said, I felt her move and get into position. She came out and she was 9 pounds, 12 ounces so she was 3 pounds– Meagan: I was going to say 6lb,15oz, right, was your second and close to your first?Macy: 3 pounds heavier than my other two. She came out. She did perfectly. Her heart rate was perfect the whole time. She came out mad, screaming mad. She was so cozy in there. She did not want to come out. She came out but hearing her cry within 20 seconds was so reassuring. She was safe. I didn't need anybody. I just needed to trust my body and to trust the Lord. My midwife was like, “That was one of the most perfect births I have ever attended.” She was beaming with joy and she was so excited for me. She was just so happy because she was like, “I've never done this after two.” She was like, “You changed everything I thought I knew about home birth, about after two C-sections.” She even now has another client which is great who is a VBA2C. I cannot wait for this podcast to come out so I can share it with my midwife and she can share it with her new client. Hopefully, they have a really great birth too. All in all, it was just everything I dreamed of. I was so thankful and I just remember laying there with her on my chest. I was watching the video last night trying to get in the mindset and remind myself and get there. On the video, I can hear myself go, “I'm so freaking proud of myself.” Meagan: You should be!Macy: I was beaming with joy. I was like, “That was so hard but so worth it.” So it was great. It was a great experience. I could not be more happy with her birth. She's a great baby. She's so happy. She was a little hard at first for 10 weeks which was different for me, but after that 10-week hump, she was a really good baby. Her name is Lucille. Meagan: Cute. Macy: We call her Lucy which means “light” and she is the light of our lives. She is the best and I can't even believe we had a family without her for a minute there. But that's my story. 36:47 ACOG's statement on VBA2CMeagan: Oh my gosh. It is so beautiful. It is so peaceful. It sounds like one of those births where you really do. You close your eyes and you just envision birth and how peaceful and beautiful and calm it really can be. To me, you just described the birth that you physically did with one that I would imagine. Macy: Yes. It's how it felt. My sisters-in-law and my other girlfriend who was there taking pictures just kept saying, “You did so good.” I was just like, “I don't know what that means.” But everyone was proud of how it all went. I think that's so super revolutionary. I hope my story touches other people's lives. Meagan: It totally will. I'm so happy that you found your midwife and that your midwife was willing to take you on because a lot of the time, providers can be nervous if they have never done it before. Macy: Which I get. Meagan: Oh yeah. For sure, for sure. I'm just so glad that she was willing. That's one of the things that gets me sometimes with so many people who just are not, we have to respect them and what they are comfortable with. But really, the evidence does show that VBAC after two Cesareans is reasonable. The overall risk and rate of rupture is approximately 1.4% so it's still very low. It's still very, very low. I mean, ACOG themselves, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, they suggest it. They say it's a completely reasonable option so for so many people to be cut off after one is heartbreaking because there are so many people who could have a vaginal birth all over the world but aren't given the option. We have a high Cesarean rate. We have so many. There are so many people. Just actually weirdly enough at the gym, a man who is the darndest cutest thing ever, his name is Robin and he will always say hi to me and check in on me and how I'm doing. He knows that I cycle and one of the things he asked the other day was, “How's that doula thing coming?” I said, “It's really great.” He said, “I never asked you. What made you want to become a doula?” I just told him my story and he said, “Oh, so you had two C-sections?” His eyes were wide. He said, “But you said you have three kids.” I said, “Yeah.” He goes, “But you only had two C-sections?” I said, “Yeah.” I said, “With my first two girls.” He was like, “Wait.” He literally was stumped there for a minute. Macy: Yeah, people don't know. Meagan: He said, “You had a normal birth after two C-sections?” I said, “Yes.” I said, “Robin, I had a vaginal birth after two Cesareans.” He looked at me because I said the word vaginal. I said, “That's what it is.” He said, “I didn't even know that was a thing.” People just don't. They just don't know that and then there are still so many providers all over the world who aren't supporting it. In the ACOG Practice Bulletin, it says that VBA2C, vaginal birth after two Cesarean, is reasonable to consider for women with two previous low-transverse Cesarean deliveries to be candidates for TOLAC. We mentioned the word TOLAC earlier, a trial of labor after Cesarean. A lot of providers use that. It is a medical turn. We call it VBAC. They call it TOLAC. It's not a VBAC to them until the baby has passed through the vagina. It says that they are candidates for TOLAC and “to counsel them based on the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving a VBAC.” Meagan: Now, just a couple of things to share before we drop off on this episode, if you had a Cesarean before or two Cesareans, it is not necessarily a reason for you to have a third. If you have gestational diabetes, that doesn't mean that you can't VBAC either. I'm trying to talk up these other factors, right? If we have preeclampsia, that doesn't always necessarily mean that we have to schedule a Cesarean. We've shared stories in the past. We've even had things like babies with medical conditions where still even their provider said, “Just because your baby has this doesn't mean you can't have a VBAC.” That doesn't always necessarily mean you can't either. If you have a big baby, here we are. A nine-pound baby, right? A nice, squishy little baby. Big baby doesn't mean you can't either. A diagnosis of a small pelvis shouldn't be considered– these factors really are more extreme I feel like so if your provider is giving you some of these, “Oh, well you could have a VBAC after two Cesareans but because your baby didn't come down the last two times, it's just probably not going to happen.” You can't see it. Macy rolls her eyes with me. Macy: The baby is going to come out. It has to come out. Meagan: Baby is going to come out. Believe in yourself. Do the research. We do have a VBAC after two Cesarean blog. We'll make sure to link it here and kind of spin back to what you said about how you were like, “Let me be a statistic. Let me a statistic to your midwife.” VBA3C– we don't have a lot of stats on VBA3C and I think a lot of it is because we are not doing them. We are not allowing them yet we have so many VBA3C moms in our community who share or on our podcast who show that it still is possible. I feel like there needs to be more risk assessment there and studies need to be done there. So know that even if you've had three Cesareans, that still doesn't mean that you are eliminated from the chance to go for what you want, fight for what you want, and have that experience not only that you want but that you deserve. Macy: For sure. Meagan: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing your story and I cannot wait for this to be published for you to send this to your midwife so she can send it on to the next Woman of Strength. Macy: Thank you so much for having me. I have loved being here and talking with you. I hope there are so many lives touched and changed by sharing my story.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Author, educator, mother, and grandmother Ina May Gaskin joins the podcast in celebration of our 400th episode! She single handedly resuscitated the practice of modern midwifery, founded and directed The Farm Midwifery Center in Tennessee, and retired only after 44 years of attending births. We are honored to have Ina May here in conversation. A special thank you goes to Sarah Culver on Ina May's team for her tireless assistance in helping us produce this episode! We appreciate you! Connect with Ina May Gaskin online: Ina May on Facebook Learn more about Ina May: National Women's Hall of Fame Reach Sarah here: @thesteadathomemom Want more pregnancy + parenting? Check out our new visual series Empowered Mama! Join host and mother of two Arista Ilona as she elicits inspiring and hopeful stories of pregnancy, birth and parenthood from everyday mothers through a lens of celebration and honor. Empowered Mama is available exclusively on Informed Pregnancy Plus. Start your FREE TRIAL of Informed Pregnancy+ and get access to all our curated pregnancy and parenting content: https://www.informedpregnancy.tv/  Keep up with Dr. Berlin and the Informed Pregnancy Project online! www.informedpregnancy.com www.instagram.com/doctorberlin/ www.facebook.com/InformedPregnancy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kara joins us today from the Los Angeles area sharing her VBA2C story! Kara's first birth was a scary and chaotic emergency Cesarean. Though her second planned Cesarean went smoothly, Kara did not love how her birth felt like such a medical procedure. After experiencing a miscarriage during her third pregnancy, Kara experienced heartache and grief, but also shares how she gained a deep reverence for her body throughout the process. She just knew that her body was capable of having a vaginal birth. Kara pulled out all of the stops with her VBA2C prep. She built a birth team she felt great about. She prepared physically. She processed past fears and trauma. Though her birth had some intense twists, Kara was able to achieve the VBA2C she fought so hard for. She took the leap of faith, trusted her body, and saw what it could do.Kara's WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 02:45 Review of the Week 05:09 Kara's first pregnancy 08:17 Kara's second pregnancy and planned Cesarean10:57 Miscarriage16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prep22:30 Beginning of labor25:08 Thoughts about the hospital system28:49 Breaking waters32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICUMegan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Meagan and we have got a VBAC after two C-sections story. Of course, I love VBA2C stories because I'm a VBAC after two C-sections mama. Her name is Kara and she is amazing. I'm just going to read your bio because you are just amazing. It says, “She is an award-winning creative marketer and mother of three. She is in LA.” If you have been listening for a little bit, she actually was on the show quite a few months ago at this point of being aired with her OB. Kara: Oh yes, with Dr. Brock. Oh my gosh, when I was pregnant. I don't know why I forgot about that, but we interviewed my practitioner, Dr. Barry Brock, together who is a very VBAC-supportive provider. That was a really fun conversation. I think I was 4 or 5 months pregnant at that point. Meagan: Yeah. We really wanted to ask him some questions about VBAC. He was with you along your journey and he was so gracious to come on and talk with us. So yeah. She has worked on so many amazing things, some of your favorite things I'm sure like Netflix, Stranger Things, which is definitely one of my favorites, Patrone Tequila, and some of your favorite women's apparel brands at Target which is also my favorite store. She started her own brand consulting agency, Always Friday, in 2019, and after the birth of her first daughter, Hadley, she experienced an emergency C-section with her and then a planned C-section, and then a miscarriage, and then went on to have a VBAC after two C-section story. We are going to hear all of the stories today. Thank you, Kara, for being here. Kara: Yes. I'm so excited to be here. I love this community and I don't think that I could have gotten to a place where I was having a VBAC without your podcast, without finding The VBAC Link Facebook group and just hearing other women really give me the encouragement to not do a third C-section. I am really happy. I'm just about three months postpartum now, so forgive me if I make no sense. Yeah. I'm just grateful for your guidance, your expertise, and all of the things that you pour your heart into as an expert on all things VBAC. Meagan: Aw. Kara: Thank you for that. Meagan: Well, thank you so much. I'm so excited to hear this story because I haven't even heard the full story. I just have this little blurb right here on my form, so I'm really excited to dive into it. 02:45 Review of the Week Meagan: We do have a review of the week and I put Kara on the spot you guys because she actually took Needed during her pregnancy and first, I'm obsessed with Needed and love and trust Needed. You took it throughout pregnancy and I would just love to hear your review on Needed today. Kara: Yes. I have obviously looked at all of these different types of prenatals and I ended up going with Needed and loved it. I did their prenatal multi and at first, I was like, “This is a little wild.” It's eight capsules which felt aggressive, but it actually was so much of the nutrients that I needed. I broke it up to four in the morning and four towards the evening. I felt the most energized during this pregnancy. I felt the strongest. I obviously did all of the things, drank all of the tea, had the protein, the dates, and all of that, and my baby was much– I mean, I don't know if this is correlated or not, but my baby was almost a pound and a half bigger than my previous biggest baby and I felt the strongest, the healthiest that I've ever felt during any of my pregnancies. I wish I would have taken it with the other two, but you live and you learn, so yeah. I highly recommend that to all of my friends and I always send people the link for the Needed vitamins whenever I can. Meagan: Yes. I believe it so much too. It's interesting that you said you have felt the most energy during this pregnancy because I feel like once you have one, two, and three– once we have more kids, during those pregnancies, they are more exhausting because we are not just able to rest and relax. Kara: They are. Meagan: We are being mom, right? So I love hearing that. 05:09 Kara's first pregnancy Meagan: Okay, let's get into your stories. Kara: Let's do it. Cool. I'm excited. Meagan: Perfect. Let's talk about Hadley's birth. Kara: Yes. I got pregnant pretty easily and had a healthy pregnancy. I think maybe had this false sense of confidence that my delivery would match my pregnancy. I did not do a lot of prep work. I went into maybe how everyone does to some degree, what you don't know you don't know kind of thing. I went into labor naturally. I was a little bit overdue and ended up sort of with the classic cascade of interventions. That was challenging. They broke my water and just set off a bunch of other things that then her heart rate went up, sort of the classic stories you hear, and they rushed me into an emergency C-section which was really scary. It felt like a true emergency like Grey's anatomy style just being rushed down the halls, with no time for really conversation. I finally asked for my operating notes and it was a class 2 which I guess if it's a class 1, you guys talk about it. If it's a class 3, you or the baby didn't make it. It was really scary and honestly, I was terrified after. I think it took three weeks for my shoulders to come down from that C-section. I've said this before, but the only way I could describe it was it felt like a car crash and I wasn't sure if my passenger made it. It was quiet in the room. I didn't hear a baby crying. Nobody was really talking. I just remember tears streaming down my face while I was on the operating table completely unsure if my baby had made it. Luckily, she's healthy and fine, but I don't think that took away from the birth trauma that I experienced with that first baby. Meagan: Yeah. That just gave me the chills when you described it like that. How scary. Kara: It was so scary. I've never seen my husband look so afraid before. I've never seen him pray out loud before. So yeah. It was just one of those things where I wasn't mentally prepared for that. I was not up to date on how many women have C-sections and what you can do to prevent it. I guess in this Instagram world that we live in, you see your friends pregnant and they are cradling their bump and then the next square you see in their feed is a baby announcing its name and weight. You never get to hear unless you ask people how you got from point A to point B, right? That was very just this naivety that you go into the hospital and you come out with a baby and you're fine. I don't know why I didn't maybe do a better job researching all of the options. That was baby number one. 08:17 Kara's second pregnancy and planned CesareanKara: Baby number two– I got pregnant about a year later. Again, quickly and easily thank God and all of that. It was the middle of COVID. It was 2020. I found out I was pregnant in March 2020 so it was sort of the peak of absolute fear and scare tactics to a degree. I kept trying to wrap my head around going into labor again naturally and I just couldn't get there. I would have borderline panic attacks every time I would think about it. The word birth trauma wasn't a word or a phrase in my vocabulary so I just thought you kind of toughen up and figure it out. I just really couldn't get there. COVID every day, a new study came out basically saying that pregnant women are going to die. Meagan: Yeah. Lots of scary stuff was coming out. Kara: I opted for a planned C-section. That just seemed like the logical thing to do at that point. My husband couldn't come to any of the appointments. I couldn't have anyone else in the room. I was delivering with a mask on. It was all of these things that just took away from what is a natural birth experience so to speak and all of the things that you need. It eliminated a lot of that and made it this very sterile process that resulted in a great, planned C-section. I can't describe it any other way than it just felt like surgery. I hate to say that because you get a beautiful baby at the end of it and you created this beautiful baby. I'm not trying to take away anyone's experience with a planned C-section. But for me, it felt like I scrubbed in for surgery and went into this sterile environment. I was put on a lot of different drugs, laid on the table, cut open, and a baby was handed to me. I have a beautiful three-year-old named Hazel from that experience, but it ultimately left me feeling– I don't know how to describe it, but not fulfilled in the way I wanted to feel. Meagan: Yeah. I can understand that. I can understand that. Like you said, not everyone is going to experience this, but there is often this disconnect. You went in. You scrubbed in and had a baby. Everyone is sterile and quiet. It's bright. There is beeping here and there. It just doesn't feel sometimes like birth. Kara: Right. Yeah. It felt like a surgery. 10:57 MiscarriageKara: So then we were going back and forth with if we wanted to have a third and ultimately decided we love being parents. I love being a mom so much. I love my work. I love the branding things I do but nothing compares to the purpose, fulfillment, and joy that I feel raising children and being a mom. I got pregnant again and it felt exciting but it also felt like it was coming at a time during my career that was potentially the busiest. Long story longer, I had a miscarriage with that baby and that pregnancy at almost 12 weeks. That was so surprising to me because once again, so similar to C-sections and all of that, it just was not on my radar. I maybe took a lot of things for granted with my very healthy and easy pregnancies. No issues, truly with the first two. That miscarriage was scary in that I was alone at home with the girls. I put down my children for sleep and then I got in the bathtub and basically delivered the placenta. I saw. It was my first experience and the closest thing I had to delivery so far because I normally have C-sections. I'm seeing a lot of blood. I'm seeing the placenta and I'm seeing what was my unborn child. Sorry to be so graphic. Meagan: It's hard. Kara: Yeah. Yeah. I felt like– and you have contractions and all of that for anybody who hasn't ever experienced a miscarriage. It's not anywhere near the same amount of pain as labor, but it is way above a period cramp or however else anyone might want to describe it at least for me. Weirdly though, I have to say that you would think that experience would make me really sad and it did. The number one thing I took out of it is that I felt incredibly empowered. I felt like my body knew what it was doing. I felt a deep sense of trust in that, “Wow. This was not the right thing to happen and my body was smart enough to get rid of what wasn't a viable fetus and pregnancy. It knew something was wrong and it got rid of it for me.” It's like, wow. All of that while I made chicken nuggets. That's so exciting. I really walked away from it feeling like, “Gosh. The female body is so incredible. It is so strong. It knows what it is doing. It is so powerful. Why wouldn't I go for having the birth that I want to have which was a vaginal delivery?” So yeah. It was sad but also strengthening in a way. Meagan: Yeah. A really sad situation and unfortunate circumstances, but in the end, it was that healing, empowering thing that happened to get you to this next step. Kara: Yes. There is something about listening to yourself and your own gut and your own body in a way that you really just start to know that you know what's best. My husband wasn't there and something took over in me that was like, “Get in the bathtub.” I have no experience. I visualized this pain leaving my body. When I did that and breathed through it, I was able to deliver the unborn baby. It was 12 weeks. Yeah. So for me, it was really incredible. It gave me just the strength to know that I can do it and that our bodies are so, like I said, powerful and women are just so strong. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Kara: Yeah. Yeah. 16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prepKara: So then I got pregnant again and was confident I wanted a VBAC. I took your course and it gave me a sense of confidence and was so intelligently designed to make me think about visualizing fear, letting go of fear, and things that I really wish I would have done almost before I had a baby to be honest with you of just all of the things you don't realize you are holding inside of you of the unknown, of what could go wrong, what you don't know, what you want to ask, what you hope for, what you are going to let go of, and just filled with great information. That course was really helpful for me and my husband so for anyone who is looking to achieve a VBAC or do a VBAC, I highly recommend educating yourself with a course like The VBAC Link's course or just one that can get you to a place where you guys are both really–Meagan: Feeling confident too in the decisions you are making. Kara: Yeah. So I did that and honestly, with this pregnancy, I was like, “I'm going to do all of the things.” I think women, if you can, if you have the means to do that, I think you should take care of yourself in a way that is– I wish I could take care of myself when I wasn't pregnant at the level I took care of myself during this last and final pregnancy. I took the Needed prenatal vitamins pretty religiously. I hired an incredible doula, Lia Berquist at Your Natural Birth who teaches The Bradley Method and is also just such an advocate for VBACs. She actually is a VBAC-certified doula with The VBAC Link. Meagan: Yay. Kara: Yeah. Then I took her course. I read Ina May's books even though my heart was not dead-set on having a natural delivery which, I think if I had a fourth, I would love to go for that but for me, just getting past the C-sections and being able to have a VBAC was really what I wanted. Like I said, I took your course. I listened to a couple of my friends. My friend, Olga, had a VBAC and she recommended her doctor who I already mentioned, Dr. Barry Brock, who is VBAC supportive, and also her chiropractor, Dr. Berlin who also has a great podcast, The Informed Pregnancy Podcast. It's great and he is also a great resource and a great person.I had all of these people around me. I assembled an all-star team. Meagan: 100%. Holy cow. Kara: I went deep. I read a lot. I took it seriously. I got my head in the game. I did not let fear creep in and I really tried to focus on what I could achieve. I think that you will notice if you are someone who has had two C-sections and you tell people confidently when you are pregnant that you want to have a VBAC, you will get a really, really mixed response even today in 2024. You will get people asking you, “Can you even do that? Is that possible? I thought you couldn't do that.” It's not your job to educate them and enlighten them on what you can or cannot do unless you feel like it. Sometimes I was in the mood to tell them, “Yes!” and tell them all of the things I learned, and other times, I was like, “Yes, you can and I will,” and just left it at that and moved the conversation along. But yes. It is important to just not let other people's fears creep in. Meagan: Absolutely. Kara: I think if you are pregnant in general, people tend to want to tell you their horror stories. Meagan: Yes. Why? I don't understand. I don't understand why when you are pregnant, it's like, “Well, let me tell you how horrible my birth was.” I'm like, “Ahh. Don't share those things.” Kara: I would actually stop people and be like, “I'm sorry you had that experience. I personally don't want to hear it.” Meagan: Good for you. Kara: I know that is rude but I had to protect my own space and my own mental sanity. I needed to really do that. Meagan: Protect that. Yeah. Kara: Yeah. I mean, even when I would see people, there are things going on in the world. There are shootings and there are wars. People wanted to tell me that and I really tried to block all of that out, especially in the final months of getting ready to deliver. Meagan: Yeah. Good for you. Kara: Yeah. I was overdue and I went into labor naturally. Basically, contractions picked up. We wanted to wait as long as possible before going to the hospital– another mistake that I definitely made in my first pregnancy of getting to the hospital, getting checked in, and becoming a patient really just too early in the labor process. Meagan: In the labor process, yeah. Kara: What I didn't know and what I learned through your course, through the Bradley Method course, and through all of the different things that I did to prepare is that your body is not a business and labor is a natural thing that could take as long as it needs to take. Sometimes your contractions stop when the sun comes up. It's an incredible thing. Sometimes your contractions stop when you get afraid and you go into a space of needing to not– so I learned all of that because my contractions did slow down when the sun came up and my contractions did slow down when I finally did get to the hospital. 22:30 Beginning of laborKara: My husband and I went to a hotel actually that was near the hospital because if you have ever been to Los Angeles, the traffic is so scary. Yeah. It gave me peace of mind to be able to labor, be close to the hospital, be in a bathtub, and know that I was going to be okay and that I could also be as loud and visceral as I wanted without my other two children being frightened by my primal-ness so to speak. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Kara: Yeah. That was a really nice experience. Incredibly painful, but I basically got to the hospital and was able to labor unmedicated until about 7.5 centimeters. Meagan: Nice. Kara: At that point, I started throwing up. I think that's common. I mean, you would know. Meagan: It is. It's miserable. Kara: It's miserable. The other thing I didn't anticipate is when you throw up as much as I did, you lose that– we're talking bags and bags to the point where my doula, Lia, was like, “Wow. I didn't even know you could have that much in you.” We were like, “Whoa.” I felt so weak and so dehydrated and just not ready to run a marathon of pushing and all the things I knew were in front of me.At that point, I opted for the epidural. I'm glad I did because I needed to take a rest. I needed the contractions to stop a little bit, to slow down, to be lessened so I could just rest and get a little bit of my strength back before it was time to push. We did that. The contractions slowed down a little bit which was unfortunate because they were so strong for a while, but we did some Pitocin as well which I didn't want to do because I was trying to have a somewhat unmedicated delivery or birth experience. My wanting of that really was because I felt so helpless during my first delivery where I got an epidural early and then I just couldn't get up. I couldn't move and when her heart rate dropped during my first delivery, it just felt like I was at the mercy of the hospital staff and the doctors, and it just, yeah. I didn't want that. 25:08 Thoughts about the hospital systemKara: This was a great experience though. It did feel a little bit like I was on someone else's schedule. Another thing I learned is the hospital is a business. Meagan: It is. Yeah. It's not a bad place to give birth, right? But there is still a system. There are still policies. There are still things where you come in and you're not always just looked as an individual coming to give birth and that's it. Kara: No. Meagan: This is an individual coming in to have a baby and we need to have a baby. Kara: In order to bill. Meagan: Yeah, and move on so we can fill the room with the next person. Yeah. That is the thing. A lot of the time when an epidural comes into play, Pitocin is just in there right in the front saying, “That is the next step ‘naturally'” to them because it can slow labor down. It often does. Kara: Yeah. I really do like my doctor. Dr. Brock is amazing and he is so supportive of VBAC. It's not his fault. It's actually just how the system works. He had surgeries planned and he had a schedule to keep so in a way, it felt like my labor was taking too long and it was time to get things rolling. Yeah, that and he recommended pretty strongly breaking the bag so it was just another thing where I mentally, Meagan, was getting to a place where I was like, “Oh my god. I'm going to end up in another C-section.” Meagan: Same situation. Well, and a lot of triggers I'm sure. Even processed births, when things happen, even if you have processed them, they can trigger you very easily. Kara: That is such a good point because even though I feel I processed all of the birth trauma from my first situation, the second my husband and I walked back into that hospital, the last time we were there in labor was with our first one and we both almost started crying. It was so triggering. I did not expect it at all. Meagan: Yeah. You know, I as a doula– I had two C-sections at this one hospital, the same hospital. I as a doula, became a doula and I walked in. I wasn't even giving birth. I wasn't even giving birth and I was like, “Whoa.” I just felt that. When you are walking in, you are in a lot of discomfort. You are laboring hard, then you walk in and you feel that overwhelming space like you were saying earlier and sometimes they stop when our bodies are responding. Kara: Right. Meagan: That can happen. Kara: And that is what happened. I went to a place where my body didn't feel safe and my contractions, even though they were so strong back at the hotel, so strong to the point where I had the classic couldn't walk in, keeled over, grabbing– really just powerful. The second I got there, it was like I froze up and everything slowed down which is so incredible when you think about your body. If you don't feel safe–Meagan: It responds. It protects you. Kara: It protects you, right? It's like, “Oh, we are not ready to bring a life into this world if you are in a space of total fear.” Meagan: Yeah. Kara: Exactly. That was so crazy reflecting back on that. 28:49 Breaking watersMeagan: So you kind of went into that triggering moment of, “Hey, let's break your water.” We've already got epidural, Pitocin and now it's like, “Hey, we need to break your water.” Kara: I told him, “No.” Meagan: I was going to say, what did you say?Kara: I said, “No.” He said, “Well, it's what I would recommend.” It was a little bit jarring. It was a do you want to have a baby or not kind of a thing. I was like, “Okay. You leave. I'll think on it. I'll get back to you.” You know what I mean? I talked with my husband. We were both pretty afraid and ultimately, I decided to have the water broken. I think that if you are making the decision yourself and you are really taking time to come to that decision, it's not the wrong decision. It's an informed, empowered decision and you made the decision. Things could go right. Things could go wrong. The point is that you were not backed into a corner and then being forced to choose it. So I chose it because I knew I was getting to a place mentally where I was so tired and I don't want to say I was giving up on my VBAC, but kind of. Meagan: Yeah, starting to doubt it a little maybe. Kara: Starting to doubt it. 30 hours of labor with exhaustion, vomiting, and contractions were really starting to mess with my mental strength and getting me to a place where I was like, “Maybe I can't do this. Maybe this isn't going to happen for me.” Meagan: Yeah. Kara: That sucked. That's a scary place to be especially after I told you about all of my A student level prep. Meagan: I was going to say, a lot of work and mental prep and physical prep to go into that. It's hard to have that defeating feeling of, “I don't know if this is going to happen. I want it to but I don't know.” It's hard because we doubt ourselves. I don't know exactly why we doubt ourselves in labor. It's so common. I've attended hundreds and hundreds of births and the amount of doubt that happens is almost 100%. Kara: Right. Why do you think that is? Meagan: I don't know. I know it's getting intense and it's at the end. Okay, so you have an epidural because that's a very common stage at 7-8 centimeters to do it when they are unmedicated but here you are even with an epidural internally dealing with that. I don't know why we always doubt our bodies and our abilities, but for some reason, I'm not kidding you. It's almost 100% of births that I attend. At some point, there is doubt that crept in. Me too. I doubted it. I was 6 centimeters and I was like, “This isn't going to happen. This isn't going to happen.” Kara: I wonder if you are in so much pain at that point that you feel weak. Meagan: And exhausted. Kara: And exhausted. I didn't realize that your mental strength is almost if not more important than your physical strength during labor. Meagan: Oh yes. Kara: That part of it is just really the trick. Meagan: Well, the mental part can get us through the physical part. If we tell ourselves we are not doing well or we can't keep going, we physically stop feeling like we can. Kara: Right. Your body listens to everything your mind says and I carry that with me through everything now. It's the way you talk to yourself and the pep talks you are giving yourself. They are very important. 32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICUKara: Anyway, I then ended up going to the pushing stage and the epidural was starting to wear off so I could feel it a little bit. I pushed and pushed and pushed and yeah. A bunch of other things happened in that sort of period but I will spare you and ultimately, I asked for a mirror. I could see her head starting to come and that to me was so encouraging. I was just like, “You can do this.” I really gave it my all and was able to have my daughter. It was really magical and amazing and they put her on my chest. I was so excited that I did it. I was crying and all of that. I did end up hemorrhaging pretty badly and during that hemorrhaging, she had swallowed some of my blood on the way out. Meagan: Oh. Wait, so you were hemorrhaging internally as you were pushing? Kara: Correct. Meagan: Wow. Did they notice like, “Oh, we're having blood here?” Or bleeding? Kara: I feel like they should have but no one said that. Then all of a sudden, after I delivered the placenta, I had a minor tear internally. He was stitching that up and then all of a sudden, I just felt this huge gush of blood and of warmth around my legs. I was like, “What is that?” Then it became an emergency situation again where all of these people came running in to stop the bleeding. We had one person starting a second IV. The other person was jabbing a needle into your thigh. Someone was holding down your uterus to try and stop the bleeding. The baby at this point was taken and is being looked at because she is not breathing super well because she has my blood stuck in her lungs and stomach. As quickly as that beautiful moment happened, it went away. Meagan: Ugh. Which is so hard. Kara: Oh my gosh. It was so hard. It was so hard. Then the room was quiet essentially. The bleeding they were able to stop. My baby went to the NICU and my husband went with her and I was just there with my doula. I remember looking at her and being like, “Why did I ever want to do this? This was awful. This was terrible.” I just started crying and crying. Meagan: Yeah. Kara: By the way, I don't feel this way, but in that moment, I was like, “I just wish I would have done another C-section.” I felt this super high and then I felt this huge low. Any mom who has ever given birth, however you do it, when your baby gets put on your chest and you have your baby, you forget all of the pain and you are just like, “Yay!” Then when the baby is taken away from you, you are left with the most depressing feeling. Meagan: Yeah. I can't imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, the super high to super low. I mean, I think that's very normal for you to doubt your decision in that moment. Kara: Right, yeah. Anyway, so she went to the NICU and she was totally healthy and fine. They had to pump some blood out of her lungs and belly. I call her my vampire baby because she was sucking my blood. Meagan: Literally. Oh my gosh. Kara: I ended up doing two blood transfusions to build back my blood supply. My face was white. My lips were drained of all color. It was sort of like looking at a corpse, just absolutely iron-deficient. There was talk of sending me home and keeping my baby there which I just lobbied against. Meagan: To not happen. Kara: To not happen. Then finally I was able to leave and I achieved my VBAC so I took my celebratory VBAC photo in the parking lot of the hospital while I was leaving because I didn't have her in the hospital bed with me while I was there. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am so sorry that that happened. That's a lot. That is a lot. I don't know if you've heard our radical acceptance episode, but you should go listen to it not just to radically accept your situation. I think that in turn, it will be very powerful as you are healing through this. I can see right now you are still healing. You still are feeling this. I can see it in your face. Kara: Yeah. Right. Meagan: I can see it and I can hear it in your voice. It's okay to take time in healing that and also, be really, really happy while being really pissed off. That's okay. You can have those two feelings together. You can be so happy that you had your VBAC but you can be so ticked that it happened and appreciate the experience while also being angry about the experience. But yeah, through processing, I send you love and I wish you luck through your processing journey. I am so happy for you that you were able to get your VBAC. Kara: I am so, so happy. I really am. I know I just highlighted a lot of crazy things that happened, but ultimately, the way I feel about it when I think about it and when I talk about it is that I really just am so proud and so happy that I was able to have that experience, to trust my body again, and just to deliver my baby the way I wanted to do it. Meagan: Right. Kara: I really hate when people say, “All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby.”Meagan: I know, met too. It drives me nuts. Kara: It really bothers me because it's like, “Well, duh I want a healthy baby and I don't want to be injured. That is so baseline. I don't even know why we are saying it.” Meagan: I know. Kara: But it's also taking away the fact of how you're getting there and the journey. Meagan: Yeah. Yes. Kara: You know. I think it's just something we say to make ourselves feel better kind of a thing. Meagan: Yeah. I do too. I feel like it's the same thing with CPD. Providers are quick to just be like, “Oh, we've got a too-small pelvis. That's why there was a C-section,” just because it makes them feel better. I swear it makes a lot of providers better just to say “CPD” because it justifies the– I'm trying to think of the right word– reason why it happened. Kara: Yeah. It makes it so that it's clearly a cause and effect. It's a simple black-and-white thing on paper. It simplifies it for everyone. Meagan: It makes it okay. Kara: It makes it okay. But to me, that's like saying to someone, “You got in a really, really bad car accident and you guys both survived the car accident. Yay!” But all that matters is that you survived. But you're like, “Yeah, but what about the fact that every time I get in the car now, I can't drive or I'm terrified?” Or the effects that it had on you? I don't know why we are so quick with every other trauma, if you are in a shooting or something horrific that you would be given the space to talk about it, process it, and be given that grace but when it comes to birth trauma, it just feels sort of like–Meagan: Dismissive. Kara: Very dismissive. Oh, but look at the healthy baby you have now. Meagan: Aren't you happy? Kara: It's like, they can exist in the same space. You can be happy to have a baby and be healthy and alive while also still being traumatized, disappointed, and saddened of how it all went down. Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. Kara: Anywho, I'll get off my soapbox now. Meagan: Amen. Mic drop. I believe that wholeheartedly. Julie and I in the past have talked about that. I've talked about that. They can co-exist together and you don't have to dismiss your feelings. Please, Women of Strength, do not dismiss your feelings because the world says you should. These feelings exist. They are in you and–Kara: They're valid. Meagan: They're very valid. They're very valid. Even if to someone else, Jane down the street, it seems irrational or ridiculous because you have that healthy baby, no. She can think that way or someone else can think that way, but you are not wrong for feeling the feelings that you failed. Kara: Right. Yeah. Meagan: Well thank you so much for sharing with us today. Kara: Yeah. I loved chatting with you and am so thankful to this community and you and your podcast and the space that you have created for everyone to talk about it and benefit from it. So yeah. Meagan: Well, good. This space is for everyone here. Kara: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Thank you, thank you and we'll talk to you later. Kara: Okay, bye. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Finally, in episode 16, I - the host of Birthing at Home: A Podcast, get to share my 2 homebirth stories. From my first baby in 2020 who was 4.55kg and my second in 2023 who was 4.61kg. I'm excited to share my stories, especially to help inspire 1st time mums & mums with 'big' babies. Thanks to my midwife friend Hannah, from @thesacredbubble on the Sunshine Coast for taking the time to chat with me. Links to people/business/resources for this episode:Ina May's Guide to Childbirth https://woomwomen.com.au/products/ina-mays-guide-to-childbirth-bookRachel Reed https://www.rachelreed.website/Sara Wickham https://www.sarawickham.com/Some tips about being a student midiwfe from Sara Wickham https://www.sarawickham.com/original-articles/eight-things-id-like-to-share-with-midwifery-students-who-care/Would you like a student midwife as a support person? Contact any university that offers midwifery and they'll be able to help you. ALL Midiwfery programs require 'continuity of care' experiences The label for Gestational Diabetes https://midwifethinking.com/2018/03/20/gestational-diabetes-beyond-the-label/The Great Birth Rebellion https://open.spotify.com/show/3gQRikeOcaHkJjWTtcT1B1?si=a044a4d334ea4de0CHAPTERS 00:00Introduction and Acknowledgements01:00Sharing Home Birth Stories03:18Reflections on Midwifery Education05:12Discovering Home Birth07:38Choosing Nursing over Midwifery08:37Considering Home Birth09:59Navigating the Maternity System10:43Family History of Home Birth11:38Overcoming Self-Doubt12:33First Home Birth Experience19:08Challenges and Frustrations with the System20:30Negative Experience with Glucose Tolerance Test22:14Birth of Murphy29:53Mixed Feelings about First Birth36:20Empowering Experience with Frankie's Birth47:03Pregnancy in the Netherlands50:35Financial Challenges and Support53:32Friend's Generous Loan54:01Challenges with Medical Professionals58:11Uncomfortable Pregnancy01:00:03Dealing with Infection Risk01:02:01Concerns about Midwives01:03:29Preparing for Birth01:05:48Labor Begins01:08:35Labor Progresses01:12:15Transition and Pushing01:17:31Birth of Frankie01:18:26Placenta Birth01:19:51Post-Birth Moments01:21:16Euphoric Experience01:22:10Healing Journey01:23:09Sharing Birth StoriesSupport the show

Are you aware of the benefits of our natural flow of hormones? In this eye-opening episode, midwife Marina Lembo shares her profound wisdom about birthing high - harnessing the power of our natural hormones to facilitate easier, safer births. She explains how activities like hugging, dancing, laughing, and relaxing prompt our bodies to release healthy hormones like oxytocin and endorphins. Meanwhile, common hospital interventions like restrictions on eating/drinking and separation from loved ones spike stress hormones like adrenaline, leading to complications. Marina details the cascading benefits of optimizing hormones during labor and birth, from easier breathing transitions to immediate breastfeeding success, stronger immunity, and even positive epigenetic effects. She delivers an empowering message: no matter what twists and turns a birth story takes, we can tap into our inner “pharmacy” to bathe our babies in hormonal health.   Marina Lembo is an  Argentine Homebirth midwife, with 24 years of practice. 4300 assisted births.  She is a TEDx speaker (2019). Translator of midwifery books (Spiritual Midwifery) and documentary films including our (Orgasmic Birth and Birth Story, Ina May, and The Farm Midwives). Founder and twice president of the Argentine Association of Independent Midwives. She Led the lobby to preserve home birth practice in midwifery regulation and started a national Birth centers network initiative. Marina is a Midwifery professor and Technical expert  She is a National and international lecturer. Human rights in childbirth activist. Homeopath. Mom of 2 children born at home.  We had the pleasure of reconnecting this June in Bali at the International Confederation of Midwives Congress where I was once again inspired by her passion and activism.        In This Episode: Midwife Marina Lembo explains how activities that make us feel good like hugging, dancing, and relaxation prompt the release of healthy hormones like oxytocin and endorphins into our bloodstream. Common hospital interventions like not allowing eating/drinking, and separating women from loved ones triggers increased stress hormones often leading to complications. Optimizing the natural flow of hormones facilitates labor progress and transitions, allows the intelligence of hormones to self-regulate pace and identify problems, and confers many benefits to the baby. Home births allow women to control their environment to lower stress and facilitate the unimpeded flow of natural hormones. Even high-intervention births can help repair a baby's hormonal health by using bonding behaviors like skin-to-skin, eye contact, hugging, and more.     Key Takeaways: You do not need to rely on machines or pills for healthy hormones - you can produce them naturally Harness pleasurable activities to release healthy hormones for a healthy birth Restrictions on normal behavior spike harmful stress hormones Natural hormone flow intelligently regulates labor and protects mom & baby Lowering stress facilitates healthy hormone release Bonding repairs a baby's hormones after difficult births Everyday behaviors boost helpful hormones Poor hormonal flows imprint for generations     Key Quotes:   "Many people think that they can get [a healthy pregnancy/birth] with all the machines and pills and checkups but in fact...when we do activities that we enjoy and when we relax, we are releasing these healthy hormones into our bloodstream." - Marina Lembo   “In some countries, being out of the hospital is related to poverty. [Natural] birth has worked for thousands of years in the history of humanity… Start being more open-minded.” - Marina Lembo   “Taking care of a newborn, it's tough work. Anybody who has had a child knows that. So if you can get all the benefits of this natural cocktail of hormones, it helps a lot to make this work that it's really tough a little bit easier.” - Marina Lembo       Connect with Marina! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marina_lembo/ Website: https://www.midwiferytoday.com/author/marina-lembo/  TedTalk: https://www.ted.com/talks/marina_lembo_parir_drogada?language=es      Connect with Debra! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/orgasmicbirth/   Twitter: https://twitter.com/OrgasmicBirth   YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/OrgasmicBirth1    Tik Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@orgasmicbirth   Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debra-pascali-bonaro-1093471/     Visit https://www.orgasmicbirth.com/ for more information on how to Positively Prepare for birth and parenting   Check out Orgasmic Birth: The Best-Kept Secret, the film creating buzz around the world!    Orgasmic Birth Podcast: Pleasure in pregnancy, birth, and parenting. I believe pleasure is our birthright - from our sexuality, birth, parenting, and beyond, we can find pleasure when we create space for joy and intimacy in our lives. Join me to have deep conversations about breaking the taboos of Sexuality + Motherhood/Parenthood.   Listen to leading experts in sexuality, healing, and childbirth, as well as stories from new parents, doulas, doctors, midwives, and nurses. We will discuss how to positively prepare for childbirth and parenting by expanding love and intimacy in your life.

In this weeks episode we went through Shaina's peaceful birth story. First time mama, choosing homebirth and all the intentions, prep and surrender that went with it. We hope this episode can shed some light, bring joy to your day and encourage the mama who thinks she can't do it, because you can!!  Now let's grab snack and get to it!  Weekly Favorite: Perfect Supplements is having a 25% off sale through 11/16. Use this Link to shop-  https://www.perfectsupplements.com/?Click=645e732da54af Resources:  Affirmations: Built to birth: https://www.builttobirth.com/meditate Mama natural: https://shop.mamanatural.com/products/pregnancy-affirmation-cards Books mentioned:  Expecting Better, Emily Oster: https://www.amazon.com/Expecting-Better-Conventional-Pregnancy-Wrong/dp/0143125702/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2KEHS4YHJT2CG&keywords=expecting+better+emily+oster&qid=1679031974&sprefix=expecting+better%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-1 Mama Natural, Genevieve Howland https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Week-Week-Pregnancy-Childbirth/dp/150114667X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?creativeASIN=150114667X&imprToken=I06TqM20XZjjZgecIvovaA&slotNum=11&ie=UTF8&qid=1485208140&sr=8-2&keywords=mama+natural+book&linkCode=w61&tag=mamanatural-20&linkId=cbbd1c7aaa034c73736ff05f6dc873ce 3. Nine golden months, Heng Ou: https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Golden-Months-Mother-Be/dp/1419751484/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3MCMDL2ZAD7F2&keywords=9+golden+months&qid=1679032078&sprefix=9+golden+months%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1 4. Ina May's Guide to Childbirth,  Ina May Gaskin: https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FVP1AWTEEFFA&keywords=ina+may+guide+to+childbirth&qid=1679032252&sprefix=ina+ma%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-1 Podcasts we encourage:  - Pregnancy & Birth made easy: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pregnancy-birth-made-easy/id1471731529 - Happy homebirth: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/happy-homebirth/id1446934537 -Evidence based birth: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evidence-based-birth/id1334808138 -Down to birth: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/down-to-birth/id1493130920

Join your host Sophia as she interviews Stesha about her home birth journey. They discuss twins, Covid, prenatal testing decisions, chiropractic care, and what to do if the fetal ejection reflex doesn't kick in. Stesha's recommendations: Lily Nicoles book Real Food for Pregnancy: https://realfoodforpregnancy.com/book/ Sneak Peek: https://sneakpeektest.com/?msclkid=a63e7ebc20421415089e1bb7bfed8553 Acorn Chiropractic Club: https://acornchiropractic.com/ Ina May's Guide to Childbirth book

Today on the podcast, Sarah joins us from Minnesota. Sarah got COVID-19 very early on in her first pregnancy during the height of the pandemic. The protocol at her practice was to recommend a precautionary 39-week induction. Sarah trusted her doctor and consented to the induction along with other interventions that were suggested. Her birth ended in a Cesarean under general anesthesia. During recovery, Sarah's knees would buckle to the point where she needed assistance walking and fell until the problem slowly resolved. When she achieved her VBAC, Sarah was able to immediately walk unassisted. She wasn't groggy from just having had anesthesia. Her throat didn't hurt. She got the immediate skin-to-skin she missed the first time.Sarah is such an amazing example of how powerful a VBAC birth can be, especially with the right prep and the right team. We just love how hands-off and supportive her doctor was. Sarah went into her birth mentally and physically strong. She labored hard, stayed calm, and pushed her baby boy out in 20 minutes!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link. We have a story for you today coming from Minnesota. We have our friend, Sarah. And Sarah, tell me. Did you have your babies both in Minnesota or have you moved since then? Sarah: Yes, both in Minnesota. Meagan: Both in Minnesota. All right, so Minnesota parents, listen up. This is a wonderful episode in your area. Review of the WeekAs always, we have a Review of the week but first I want to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Sarah and I were just talking about how we have seen so many COVID-19 stories coming through. They had their C-section through COVID-19 or even had their VBAC during COVID-19 and then now they have gone on to VBAC. There is definitely a trend of situations that we are seeing so I'm just so curious today. Go comment on today's episode and let us know if you have any relation, but a lot of providers are wanting to induce if you have the virus, COVID-19. Sarah, that was kind of the case with you, right? They wanted to induce because you had COVID-19. Sarah: Yes. That was kind of the standard of care at that point. Meagan: Yes, which is kind of interesting to think about the new standard of care. I really am curious to see one day what the Cesarean rates did during COVID-19. You know, there is some evidence here and there on it, but I'm really curious to see what the Cesarean rate did because we do have a lot of people saying that they were induced because they had COVID and then they ended in a Cesarean. So we're going to talk a little bit. She's going to share her birth and her induction story that then led to her VBAC. But of course, we have that review. It is by Raving Abbeh and the title is “Confidence.” It says, “I found this podcast at 34 weeks pregnant and it helped me gain the confidence to fight for my chance and get a VBAC. I hope to submit a success story in a few weeks.” And guess what? This was also during 2020, so Raving Abbeh, if you haven't submitted your story, we would love you to and as always, you guys, we're always accepting stories. We definitely record in chunks, so know that if it takes time, that doesn't mean you haven't been chosen or you will never be chosen, but if you want to submit your story, go to thevbaclink.com/share. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Sarah: I'm so excited. Meagan: I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Well, tell us more about this 39-week induction and why they were saying it was the new norm. It was the protocol, right? Sarah: Yes. So at this time, I was working full-time in the hospital where I gave birth as a radiographer– an X-ray tech. I was kind of in the world a little bit. It was definitely not a fun time to work in the hospital. I actually tested positive when I was 8 weeks pregnant, so very newly pregnant. I was seeing family med for my provider and what they were doing at that time, they said, “Okay. This is what's going to be different. You're going to meet with a high-risk OB who specialized in COVID.” I would have growth ultrasounds every 4 weeks and then also, they were recommending this induction at 39 weeks. When I asked about that, what she said was that they had seen issues with the placenta. That was the reason that they had. I actually looked back on it now and I think in the study, they really only had 16 pregnant people so that was what they were basing this all off on. Meagan: Which is really nothing to start making a protocol so wide-ranged. Sarah: Right. Right. And actually, right now, my sister-in-law had COVID and she's pregnant. She had COVID at the same time I did at 8 weeks, but now it's 2023 and her doctor is not doing the growth ultrasounds. They're not recommending induction. There actually is nothing different with her current, right-now pregnancy which I find interesting. Meagan: Interesting, right? Right? Sarah: But again, it can range. Meagan: In 2020, it's interesting because they were like, “Oh, we're going to have you with this provider who specializes in COVID pregnancies,” but how does someone specialize that fast? Sarah: Right. The person that was the specialized person was the highest-up person in the department of OB. Meagan: Okay, so definitely a specialized OB. Okay. Sarah: Right. I actually only ended up meeting up with her one time because if there was anything abnormal, that's when I would go to her but my pregnancy was completely normal. I had no issues related to COVID or related to anything else which was obviously a blessing, but kind of also a bummer because now, I'm going to have this completely unnecessary induction at 39 weeks.Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: She did mention at the time that if I wanted to go past 39 weeks, I could definitely make that choice but she would do NSTs. Now after learning so much and being where I am now, I would have been like, “Okay. Let's go longer and do NSTs,” but at the time as a first-time parent, I was like, “That sounds kind of weird. Let's just do what you think.” Meagan: It sounds intense with all of these extra visits. It's a lot. It sounds like a lot. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise, about that pregnancy, being a first-time parent and having this medical background, it's no surprise probably that my attitudes towards the doctors were that I completely trusted their knowledge with the COVID stuff because it was so new. Meagan: Oh yeah, and scary. Sarah: Yeah, definitely, but I was completely unaware that there was such a wide range of ways to treat pregnancies and so many different attitudes on how to birth babies. I was just clueless to the whole thing about the cascade of interventions and why do inductions have an increased risk of C-section? I was completely clueless to it. I am just used to with a doctor, you have a certain condition and there are ways to treat it. It was very narrow. But with birth, there are midwives. There are doulas. There are so many different ways to treat someone's birth and pregnancy that was just over my head. When people would ask me, “Oh, why are you having an induction?” and tell me that maybe I shouldn't do that, I was like, “Oh, well why wouldn't I when they say that is the best thing to do for this COVID situation?” For me, it was like, “Well, they know better than me.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Sarah: I think you say all the time that you don't know what you don't know. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know and you can't judge yourself for not knowing what you don't know. Sarah: Yes. I definitely had to work through forgiving myself for sure. Meagan: Yeah. You have to take the information. I think I talked about this too. My husband had said this. We took the information we were given and made the best choice that we felt we had with the information provided. Sarah:  Yes. Meagan: Right? And that's what you did. Sarah: Right. Honestly, it's funny now. Even just preparing for birth in general, take away the COVID part, it's kind of funny how I did basically nothing to prepare for birth. I just focused on my registry and other things like that after the baby got there. It was kind of because I had this, “Oh if I go with the flow, I'll have the best outcome. I don't want to put too many expectations on myself. I don't want to pressure myself. I'm just going to go with the flow. I don't know how my body is going to handle it,” which does have a place. There is a goodness to that, but I think I was a little too extreme where I was like, “My mom had C-sections. I know if that happens, it happens.” It was just very, “Whatever happens, happens.” Now, I look back and I'm like, “Well, now all I did was have no tools in my toolbox to deal with pain, labor, or resources to help make those hard decisions that I was going to have to make.” I had nothing in the background to help me with that. Meagan: No tools in your toolbox. Sarah: Exactly. That's why it was very different for my second birth but at that time, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, happens. I don't know what's going to happen to me or how my body is going to take it, so we'll just see what happens.” I was scheduled at 39 weeks on a Monday and actually, that Friday before, they called me and said, “Hey, do you want to come in early? We have a lot of people scheduled on Monday.” I was like, “Oh, I'm excited to meet my baby. I'll go in even earlier,” which is like, oh. Okay. That weekend, we were actually moving into our new house an hour away. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: We actually spent one night at our new house and the next day we drove back to Rochester to have our baby but we were so excited. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Sarah: I wasn't even thinking about anything else. We were scheduled for a 7:00 PM Saturday appointment then. When I got there, I was completely 0% dilated. Closed. 0, 0, 0, -3 station. Furthest from ready. Meagan: Not ready to have a baby, yeah. Sarah: No. So they started me with Cytotec overnight and in the morning, they placed the Cook catheter then they started Pitocin right after. I faintly remember watching Beauty and the Beast bouncing on a ball, but that was the extent of any movement in my labor. Like I said, I didn't prepare for anything. I just was like, “Oh, bounce on a ball. Everyone says that's good.” I didn't do much. But what did start happening was the baby was having decels, not liking the Pitocin, so I had to get moved from side to side. I was lying on the bed– not the best position to have the baby not be so high up. Meagan: Right. Sarah: But then by 10:00 AM, they took out the Cook catheter. I was 4 centimeters dilated. Things were moving along. But then at 11:00, they had to turn down the Pitocin because again, the baby was still not tolerating it very well. Then I felt a big pop in my belly and I was like, “Oh, is this what it feels like when your water breaks?” I was excited. I'm like, “Oh, that sounded like a balloon popping.” So they came in and they were like, “No, we don't see anything. Your water didn't break.” I was like, “Oh, okay sure.” Meagan: I felt something. Sarah: So then a half hour later, they came back in because they had to actually turn off the Pitocin because the baby still wasn't happy. They checked me and they're like, “Oh, there's all your water,” and it gushed out on them. So I was like, “Okay, well at least I know that I can trust my intuition even though you didn't quite believe me.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: But I'm not crazy. It did break. The contractions were getting really intense at this point. I tried laughing gas. It didn't really work. At that point, I decided, “Okay. I'm ready for an epidural. I feel like I've gotten as far as I can with what I prepared,” which was nothing. I actually found out this after the fact, but at this point, they actually gave me medicine to stop my contractions. Meagan: Like terbutaline or something?Sarah: Yes, exactly. They gave me that at this point. I actually have no recollection of this, but I was able to look at my records after the fact and I was like, “Oh, I never knew they even gave me that.” Apparently, they gave me that to stop things or slow them down or whatever. I was about 5 centimeters dilated at this point and they placed the epidural. Everything went smoothly with that and then an hour later, they were like, “Oh, we're going to start the Pitocin again.” I was like, “Okay.” I was 5 centimeters at that point and then 40 minutes later, they checked me and I was 9 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa, so your body went into total relaxation mode and dilated. Sarah: Yes. Yes. I was like, “Cool. That was fast.” They had just sent away the doctor. They had to call her back. Shortly after that, I was at 10 centimeters, ready to go. This is when they had me start pushing. One important part that I know now is that I don't remember ever feeling pressure or the urge to push or anything like that. They were just like, “Okay. It's time to push.” I'm like, “Okay.”I did end up pushing for about 3 hours. They did let me try a few different positions. They tried to turn down my epidural to help too, but she never really progressed past that zero station. So nothing was happening. I was mostly on my back for all of it.I remember them saying that they would let me push for the most at 4 hours, but at the 3-hour mark, I was exhausted. I felt like we had made no progress. I was just like, “Nothing's going to change in another hour at this point for me. I don't know what I'm doing. You try to tell me how to push. I still don't know.” Meagan: Yeah. You're just like, “I'm tired.” Sarah: Exactly. The contractions were beginning to be really painful. Again, I didn't really have a way to cope with them. The pushing wasn't working so I consented to the C-section. I just remember feeling so defeated and just crying, being wheeled into the OR. My doctor stayed right by my head and talked to me until my husband was supposed to come in because I kept saying, “Hey, I feel these contractions. They are strong.” They were trying to give me all of the medicine to numb me enough. They were doing the prick test to make sure that I couldn't feel it and I just remember it was really hard because my nose was plugged up from crying. I felt like I couldn't breathe anyway. I wasn't sure about the pokes. I was like, “They are sharp to me. I feel them. They don't feel like pressure. They feel sharp.” They were like, “Okay. Well, we're going to have to put you under.” They put the mask on me. I breathed in and went to sleep. Meagan: And you were gone. Sarah: Yep. Then I was gone. Meagan: Your husband probably never came in then? Sarah: So he did get to go into the OR. She was born. They let him go in so he was all gowned up. He was in the OR. He kind of tells it like, “Yeah, it was so weird. I looked over and there you were on the table.” He wasn't so close to me. Meagan: Sleeping. Sarah: But yeah. I was sleeping. He did get to do skin-to-skin. They let him do that in the OR which was really nice. They got a bunch of pictures of her getting weighed and him cutting the cord in there so it was nice to have some of those pictures that I can look back on. Meagan: Right. Sarah: That's something. Meagan: Right, yeah. It helps you relate, too, when you're not awake. Sarah: Exactly. It was definitely a weird experience. But when I did come to, apparently, I had been awake longer but you know how that works. When you're waking up from anesthesia, it's kind of weird. But apparently, when I woke up, they told me that I was just like, “Where's the baby? Where's the baby? Where's the baby?” They rushed me back. I don't remember any of that, but what I do remember is when I woke up, my throat was so sore and hurt so bad. But she was on me and she latched immediately and started feeding so that was really special. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: Just how she was able to eat right away and I didn't have any problems with that which was really nice. I know that can happen sometimes. That's basically that birth. Meagan: An unexpected ending and a less-ideal situation, but then to come out and have things work out really nicely was probably really healing and comforting. Sarah: Yes. Right away, I was definitely happy. She was healthy. I was okay. She was eating. But I remember just recovering from a C-section, you're in a fog. I remember my legs being in those machines to keep the blood flowing, having a catheter, having my sore throat, and whispering to talk. That kind of thing was definitely not a fun recovery in that aspect right immediately after. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: I actually had a really weird thing. I had problems with my knees. Meagan: Oh. Sarah: I have never heard anyone else talk about this. Meagan: Interesting, like wobbly and strong? Sarah: So what happened was once they took out the catheter and then they give you the, “Okay, it's time to try to go to the bathroom for the first time.” When I tried to stand up, my knees would just buckle. The first day, I had to have two people assist me to the bathroom. The second day, it was also a two-assist. Slowly, they started to not always buckle. I was in the hospital, I think, for four days. Four or five days. Eventually, they wouldn't buckle but when I got home, they would buckle when I went upstairs. I did fall twice but slowly, they did get better. It was fine. It was just if I unexpectedly took a step. My cat scared me and I stepped and then I would fall because my knee wasn't expecting it. Meagan: I just looked it up because I am legitimately curious. It says, “Acute lower limb compartment syndrome after a Cesarean.” Sarah: Oh. Hmm. Meagan: Interesting. So it can happen. Sarah: Interesting. I was just kind of assuming it was a mix of me being numbed from the waist down for hours and then my legs being up in the air for hours and then being in the C-section, and then also laying down. Do you know what I mean? Something with that, but no doctor or anything ever said anything to me about it. They were just like, “Oh, okay. That's weird.” Meagan: Yeah. Really, really interesting. It says that it's rare. Sarah: Oh. Meagan: It's pretty rare, so you get to be in one of those rare groups. Thank you for sharing. Sarah: Yeah, so otherwise, I hadn't really fully processed the birth but every time I would tell my birth story, I would choke up or cry and that's when I realized, “Oh, maybe I didn't really like that very much” because at first, you're just happy the baby is okay and you're okay. I actually remember right afterward, I was like, “Oh, okay for any other baby, I'll just schedule a C-section. This time it will be planned and I'm going to be awake for it.” I honestly wasn't even thinking about VBAC right away. I was just like, “Oh, the future will be easier. It will be fine.” But when my daughter was around 6 months old, I started to listen to The Birth Hour and I found myself searching C-section stories, looking for things like mine which led me to hearing VBAC stories, searching those out, and then finally finding The VBAC Link. That was the big game changer. I am so appreciative of you guys having this podcast and keeping it going on and all that. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: Such an inspiration. I learned so much even from both podcasts about interventions, doulas, birth teams, and most importantly, trusting in a woman's body. It kind of leads me to this big thing. It's like, why do we have to go through some sort of trauma to become an advocate for women and educate ourselves? Meagan: Right? Sarah: I feel like that's such a theme. Meagan: It's so true though. It's so true. Why do we have to go through a really crappy experience? It doesn't always have to be crappy. I'm not saying C-sections are crappy, but a big experience to have passion and to feel that motivation behind that.Sarah: Exactly. Yep. Sometimes, it's so hard because it's like when you talk to someone who hasn't been affected by this kind of situation where it doesn't go their way in the hospital, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. “You can't trust the doctors.” That's not what we're saying. It's so much more than that. Meagan: It is. It really is. It's not even just in birth. Truly, right? My husband does not do what he does, I think, mainly just because he didn't want to do it one day. It was like, “Hey, this really unfortunate situation happened to someone I love and I want to be available in a different manner to help them or help anybody else.” So he took on his profession. It's like IBCLCs– I'm sure a lot of them have had unfortunate or poor nursing experiences and are like, “We want to help other people have better experiences.”Sarah: Yes, because it's the information that, “Oh, wow.” It makes complete sense that, “Oh, things might go a little bit better if you let your body naturally do it.” Oh, well yeah. That makes sense. It makes sense that, “Oh, if I have someone who's trained in positioning, maybe if I move my body in this way, then I can get my baby in a better position to come out better. Oh, that makes sense. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't my doctor say, ‘Hey, there are some positions that can help.'” It's confusing to me. It's like, well that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So obviously, I just dove right into all of the VBAC stuff and learning all about that and listening to different stories. I was super excited for my next pregnancy because I had made the decision, “Yes. I'm going to go for a VBAC and I'm super excited about it.” I was ready to do all of the things to make it more successful. We got pregnant when my daughter was around 15 months old. We wanted a two-year age gap and they're both two years apart in April so that worked out for us. Meagan: Perfectly, yeah. Sarah: So the things I did to make it more successful– they are all things that people on this podcast talk about. For physical things, it was workouts that focused on birth prep. I didn't do anything crazy like walking for miles and miles every day. I just did the minimal which was doing some exercises every day for hips opening, cat/cow, and all of that stuff. I did the Miles Circuit later on in pregnancy every day. I ate my dates every day. I drank my tea.Then I think the biggest thing, too, is mentally preparing. For mentally preparing, I got my doula. I really love that the doula does the meetings before the birth. I didn't even know that when I had heard people talk about doulas but meeting before and talking about what birth plan I wanted, what things– Meagan: Your desires. Sarah: Exactly and what things could happen. I'm like, “This would be so helpful for a first-time parent to know all of this stuff.” I wish I had gotten her with my first. Also, just talking about coping mechanisms, what are some positions that we are going to do, talk about scenarios. It was great. Then I also, for mentally preparing, I looked up a bunch of different coping mechanisms. I actually did Hypnobabies. I wasn't consistent with the meditation, but it was very helpful to practice the breathing and visualization. Meagan: I did too. I did it as well. Sarah: I was really bad at the meditations so that didn't stick with me, but it was really, really great to practice the breathing and all of that. And honestly, just listening to birth stories is mentally preparing because I would really only focus on positive stories toward the end of my pregnancy. I was like, “Okay, now we are in the home stretch. We are just going to stick to all of the positive ones.” The big thing, too, was finding my provider. I joined The VBAC Cesarean Support Group on Facebook way earlier and everyone had all of the recommendations of who to go to. My provider is actually family med, but he is more like a midwife. Actually, my doula said that he's actually more crunchy than a midwife as a family med. For all of the births that she attended, she said, “He is more hands-off than a midwife.” I'm like, “Wow.” Meagan: Wow, that's cool. Sarah: And what's great is that he attends all of his births so there is no rotating call schedule. Meagan: Which is huge. Sarah: There's no, “Who's going to be there?” He's very trusting of women's bodies. I did my due diligence and I asked him, “How often have you personally seen a uterine rupture? How often do you use the vacuum? How often have you done episiotomies?” You know, so just asking him all of the things. He had really great responses and I felt really solid with him. Meagan: Which is really important, right? To have those conversations also. We know that when they come in and they say, “Hey, do you have any questions?” It's really okay to ask questions. Sarah: Yes. That's the big thing. So because he's not an OB, I had to go do a consult with the OB that he works with in the hospital. The OB who works in the hospital definitely wasn't making me fearful, but there's a certain form you have to fill out that says, “Hey, obviously if you're successful with your TOLAC, that's going to be the safest option for you. But if you're not successful, that's the least safe.” It's easy to plant doubt, but after I saw him again, I asked my provider, “How often do you see it?” It was such a small amount and since he's one of the VBAC go-tos, I felt very confident with him. It was really nice to have that fear taken away in that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: And then this is kind of interesting. Just for fun, I did message my old provider at my previous hospital just to see what she would say about my chances for VBAC. I actually messaged her before I was pregnant. I said, “Hey, I am kind of processing and struggling from my C-section. What do you think about my chance for VBAC?” It was just on a message. What she said was, “You did everything you could at that time to have her vaginally, but she just didn't fit your pelvis for whatever reason. We think of fitting as a lock and key situation. Both pieces have to work together to open, so there's no way to know if a future baby would ever fit your pelvis better than she did.” Then she kind of went on. I thought, “Nope.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not taking that in.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It was interesting. Meagan: Thank you so much, but no thanks. Sarah: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, “I don't think she didn't fit my pelvis. That's not a thing.” Meagan: But you know, it's an easy thing for people to say or diagnose. It's like, “Oh, well your baby was perfect. You were perfect, but the two together didn't really match that time.” Sarah: Right. Meagan: That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. We just don't know. Sarah: Again, we can't go back in time and have me try something different. Meagan: Yes, yes. Sarah: But I think it's interesting that she said that. Meagan: It is. Sarah: Again, I talked to my doctor. He's like, “Oh yeah. Great. Let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: He said, “You've got this.” So you know. Otherwise, I'm preparing. This is the funny thing too, again. At first, I didn't have any intention of trying to go unmedicated. At first. I was like, “I definitely want to VBAC,” but I wasn't trying to do that. I was just focused on the VBAC part. But once you hear enough birth stories, you know that if I do all of this preparation and I go as long as I can without this intervention, I'm going to have the best possible chance of a healthy vaginal birth. If it still ends in a C-section, it's because that was what had to happen not because I didn't know any better. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So that's when I was like, “Yes, okay. It makes sense for me to try. I should just try to go unmedicated. I should just do it. Whatever happens, happens.” I still am keeping my go-with-the-flow but with a lot of preparation. It was kind of funny because when I would tell people that, “I'm trying to go unmedicated,” people will say the craziest things to you. Meagan: Right? “I could never.” Sarah: Yes, or “I know someone who did and it was the worst thing they ever chose to do. They said, ‘Never do that.'” It's like, I know and I've heard many, many stories of people doing it and are very happy with the outcome. So definitely right before, I was 37 weeks. I was like, “I'm going to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.” Everybody talks about it, but I just wanted to hone in and focus on those unmedicated birth stories and just say, “How did you guys do this? How was it successful?” That was really helpful. I really liked that book. That was really good. Meagan: Yeah. I really like it too. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise in this pregnancy though, I physically felt really good. I got Braxton Hicks contractions which I didn't have in my first pregnancy. That was definitely new. Meagan: Yes. Probably exciting. Sarah: It was exciting. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Every birth is different.” That was one of the Hypnobabies thing that stuck with me. Each baby is different. Your birth is going to be different. Don't let that fear creep in on you. But at 33 weeks, I found out the baby was breech so that was scary. Meagan: Yeah. It throws you for a loop, right? Sarah: Yes. When I found out that he was breech, I immediately messaged my doula. She gave me Spinning Babies exercises to do every day. I was making sure I was sitting forward and all of that stuff. Then I went to see a chiropractor first and then she also gave me this massage therapist who was trained in breech balancing massage. I went to both of those and the baby was flipped at my next appointment at 35 weeks. Meagan: Yay. Sarah: So I was very happy. The coolest thing with the massage therapist—in our state, I'm pretty sure she is maybe the only one who does this breech balancing massage. She told me because I actually went to do a follow-up appointment. Even though he was already head down, I was like, “Let's just go again to make sure.” She said that she was treating six other breech moms at that time and they had all flipped when I came back from my second appointment. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: Yeah. I'm always in the groups. I'm like, “If anyone is breech, try this specific breech balancing massage. Yeah.” It's really interesting just listening to her talk about it because she is so knowledgeable about, “Hey, your baby is breech for a reason. You have these muscles that get tightened. Your pelvis is this bowl and if things are in the wrong position, the baby wants to be head down. If I can release all of these muscles and make more space in there, even if the massage might not on its own make your baby flip, but giving your baby that space, then your ECV is more successful if you do that. Meagan: Right. Sarah: I was very happy because I had done all of this work and hyped myself up. I wouldn't want to have to schedule a C-section for this reason after all of that but if it happened, it happened. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: So everything was going good then until my 39-week appointment. I had a high blood pressure reading so I was like, “Oh great.” But my doctor was not worried. He had me do an NST, labs, and monitor at home. I came back in a few days and everything was good. That was nice. Actually, the day that I went back for my follow-up for my high blood pressure was the day that I got my birth records. They had my birth records there for me. I had gone this whole time. I was almost 40 weeks and I was like, “I still really want to see.” Meagan: You had requested them? Sarah: Yeah, and it just took a really long time to get them. When I had that appointment, I was able to get my birth records earlier than I thought. I didn't think I was even going to get them by the time I had the baby. I was able to read through them and kind of work through it. My doula was like, “Oh, do you want to call and talk about it?” I was like, “Yes.” It was kind of like a fear release for me because that night I went into labor. Meagan: Yeah. Did you find anything in there that you didn't know before? Sarah: I mean, that one thing was that terbutaline. I didn't know that. And then I was just curious about some of the dilation. Also, I saw on my records too that the surgeon who did my C-section put, “This patient is a candidate for a TOLAC.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah: It was nice just to have that and to see that the surgeon who did my C-section would put that on my note like, “Yeah. They are a candidate.”Meagan: Yeah, it's helpful. Sarah: Just working through it too was nice to see it in a timeline. So that night was the night I went into labor. At 2:00 AM, I woke up with my contractions. Right away, they were 3-7 minutes apart. I had the same situation three weeks before where I woke up and had contractions that were 3-7 minutes apart, but they fizzled out and didn't come back. I only had that situation one time earlier. So I was like, “Oh, this could be another practice. This could be the real thing.” But they were stronger than the last time. That's the biggest thing too. Even though they were so close together, I was handling them so well that I was like, “I think I'll just wait this out,” which is interesting because if you're a first-time mom, you're like, “Hey, this is 4-1-1. I'm having them.” Meagan: You have to go! Sarah: And they're long. A lot of them were long like at least a minute, but they just weren't strong so I was like, “Okay, well I'll wait.” Then my husband woke up at 4:00 AM. I was like, “Hey, I'm having these contractions.” His response was, “I'd better hurry up and go work. I've got some work to get done.” He's like, “Oh no. I gotta go.” So then he went away to go work on stuff. Then by 6:00 AM, I was like, “Okay.” I had a couple really strong ones so I was like, “Oh.” Then I was also getting back labor so I was like, “All right. Time to text the doula.” I was like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” She was like, “Well, your back pain might be because of the baby's position, so try to do the Miles Circuit. Eat a good breakfast. Hydrate. I'm preparing you for possibly a long day.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I had my bagel with cream cheese. I got my Body Armor drinks out, but when I tried to do the Miles Circuit, it was so intense. I could not. The minute I laid down and I had a contraction in the Miles Circuit position, the laying down one, it was like, “Whoa, no.” Meagan: Not gonna happen. Sarah: I'm like, “I think this is time for me to start going into some prep mode here.” So I dimmed the lights in my room. I had my ball but I actually didn't like bouncing on it so I never bounced on it. Meagan: Was it uncomfortable? Sarah: Yeah. For me, that seated position was uncomfortable. For me, I was in a forward-leaning position. I'd lean against the wall and sway or I'd have my husband come. I'd hug him and sway. I'm like, “This is working out okay.” The back labor was a different aspect that was like, “There's got to be something I can do for this back labor.” I messaged her and she's like, “Okay, well obviously have him try to do hip squeezes,” but he wasn't really getting the job done with the hip squeezes. She recommended the shower to also help us see if it's going to calm down or if it will keep going. I got in the shower and it was magic. The heat on the back was perfect. My favorite thing ever, but the hot water ran out after 15 minutes and I was so sad. Meagan: Oh shoot. Sarah: So the hot water ran out and I was like, “Oh man.” I got out of the shower and I was like, “Now we might just have to go to the hospital right now because I need hot water. I want to get in that tub.” That was my dream was getting in the tub. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So my doula checked in with me at this point and asked about the shower. I was like, “Yeah.” I think I was kind of in denial because I was like, “Oh, it's medium intense,” but they were still happening. She was like, “Okay, well maybe you should start heading in as long as they are staying 3-4 minutes consistently for an hour. Go ahead and start heading in.” At this point, she also tells me that she is actually in another birth. Then she joined me with the backup doula so she was at another birth. I was like, “Oh bummer.” But my backup doula ended up being amazing as well. But you know, when you're preparing with someone— Meagan: Can I just say right there that is a real thing? It's usually if you have to have a backup doula, it usually works out so well. Right? Sarah: Yeah, it was so good. Meagan: But like you were saying as I was cutting you off, as you were preparing with someone else, it's hard. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of a bummer because you know this person so well and you had worked with them, but it worked out perfectly fine too. I really like my backup doula. She's great as well. She told me, again because I was like, “Hey, what can I do for now? We're going to head in probably soon but what else can I do for this back pain?” She was like, “Do you have a heating pack?” I'm like, “Ooh, yes.” I was putting a hot pack on my back which again, wasn't hot enough for me. Meagan: You needed a hot tub. Sarah: It did something. At this point, my daughter had actually woken up because we were still at home. It was about 8:00 and she was so sweet. Every time I'd have a contraction, I'd go into my room. I'd have my calming music on and my swaying but then I would leave and I'd come back out with her. She was just so sad. She wasn't crying, but she had these big tears welling up in her eyes. I would hold her and she would pat my back. She was like, “It's okay.” It's like she knew that something was going on. I was like, “I'm okay. It's okay.” She was just kind of like, “What is going on?” I wasn't making loud, loud noises but I would be doing horse lips through them or moaning. Meagan: Coping. Sarah: Yeah, nothing too crazy, but for her, she could tell that something was going on. Luckily, my mother-in-law and sister-in-law came over shortly after that around 8:30ish. My sister-in-law took my daughter and was like, “Let's go play,” so she was good. She was good. My mother-in-law saved me because she said, “Oh, I will boil hot water.” So she got a big pot and boiled hot water. She put cloths in them and put those on my back. That was amazing. Meagan: I bet that felt really good. Sarah: Right. So at this point, my husband probably should have been getting the cars ready for us to go to the hospital, but instead, he was cleaning the house frantically. Meagan: That was probably his way of coping. “Oh my gosh, this is happening. I'm going to go work and then I'm going to go clean the house.” Sarah: Yes. Yes, so we're like, “Okay, it's time. We've got to get going.” I'm like, “Yeah. I've got to get going.” So finally, we get in the car. My back is soaking wet from these hot towels but they are saving me. Luckily, the drive was only 10 minutes. I had my hot towel in there. It wasn't the most comfortable, but we got there. They checked us in and they moved us to triage. At this point, again, the sitting position was not my position for labor. It was, “Nope, not happening.” I was always kneeling, facing the back of the bed. The back of the bed was up. I held onto it. Then when I was in triage, though, I didn't have my coping mechanisms. I didn't have my hot towels. My next plan that I had was the comb technique. I had packed a couple of combs. I was telling my husband, “All right. Your hip squeezes—” he was trying to find the combs and of course, he couldn't find the combs that I brought. But he did remember that he brought his own comb. Meagan: Hey! Sarah: So I was able to take his comb which I can say RIP to his comb. I used it. There were little comb tings, whatever they are called, the teeth of the comb were everywhere at the end of my birth but it definitely worked. So then every time I would have a contraction, I was pushing on the comb and breathing as they were checking me into triage. But they were able to kind of get the band on me. They gave me an ultrasound to make sure the baby was head down while I was in triage. Then they checked me. The nurse checked me and when she was down there, she was like, “Oh, it's really hard to tell how dilated you are because you have a bulging bag of waters and I really can't tell what you're doing.” She was like, “I think you're almost complete.” I'm like, “Okay.” Meagan: Whoa. Sarah: I'm like, “Okay.” This whole time, she'd been trying to call someone on her radio, but they were really busy. At that point, she was like, “Okay, let's get this room.” She was like, “I'll just wheel you on this bed unless you want to walk.” I'm like, “Actually, I want to walk.” I was actually thinking, “You know what? I think I want the bed that is in the room. The triage beds aren't probably as comfortable.” That's where my mind was so I was like, “Let me just walk.” Meagan: No. Sarah: So they get me in the room and again, my doula is on her way but she's not there yet. It's about, I think, 10:00. My doctor comes in. They put the little IV on my arm in case I need any medicine. All I'm doing right now- Meagan: Hep lock. Sarah: Yes, exactly. All I'm saying is that I just wanted to get in the tub. This is me the whole time in triage. Meagan: I just want the water. Sarah: I want to get in the tub. I want to get in the tub. The comb is helping, but I want to get in the tub. So he comes in. I'm like, “Hey, can I get in the tub?” He's like, “Well, you can but I should probably check you first if you want me to. If you're really close like the nurse thinks, then you'll have to push soon possibly.” I'm like, “Yes. Check me because then, if I'm not, I can get in the tub.” That was in the back of my mind. He checked me. He's down there for a while and I'm finally like, “Okay, you've got to get out.” He's like, “I understand why they are having a hard time. Yes. You have a big, bulging bag of waters. I can tell why she had a hard time and I think you're maybe 7 or 8 centimeters but I can't tell. As soon as the water breaks, you're going to be fast.” I was like, “Sounds like I can get in the tub.” He was like, “Yes, you can.” Meagan: You're like, “Perfect.” Sarah: Perfect. This is when my doula came around this time. She helped get the tub in motion because they were like, “Well, it's going to take a while. We've got to get you on these mobile monitors.” She went in and she got the water going and I was able to get in the tub. The only problem is that once I got in the tub, I was like, “Oh, I think I have to poop,” which is the magic— Meagan: Means you're going to have a baby! Sarah: She was like, “Well if you want, you can sit on the toilet and see if you actually do poop.” I was like, “Sounds like a plan.” I sat on the toilet facing the back of the toilet. I had my hands on my comb. My comb was with me everywhere. That's when I had the scary, scary transition contraction. I was so happy I had her there because she was saying all of the right things and at this point, I can't remember any of them except for her saying to me, “This is the hardest part, but it's also the shortest. You are in transition.” When I heard her, I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I was a little shaky. You just feel so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I don't know about this. I'm not sure about this.” Meagan: You start questioning. It's weird. Sarah: It is really, yeah. But she was saying all of the things I needed to hear, so I was good. So then I was like, “Okay, no poop is coming. Let's get back in the tub.” So I got back in the tub, and then I had probably one contraction and then a lab person came to the door and was like, “I've got to take your blood.” We're like, “Uh, okay. Let's just wait until she's in between contractions.” I'm like, “That's a good idea.” So she comes in. She turns on the light. I'm like, “This is throwing off my vibe.” She sits down next to me and she scans my band and then they were like, “Okay, let's wait for the next one.” The next contraction came and it was the, “My body is pushing! I'm pushing. Help!” I had that fetal ejection reflex, but my water was still intact so it was more of the water ejection reflex. Meagan: It was pushing that, yeah. Exactly. Sarah: My body did the thing where it pushed on its own. I've always heard about this when I've listened to the podcasts that this happens. I was always like, “Oh, I want that. That sounds nice. Do it for me,” but I did not like it. Nope. Especially because I was in the tub, maybe that's why, but I just felt so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I'm not controlling this pushing,” but I was also very excited because I knew that meant it was time. The lab person promptly left the bathroom and they never got my blood. I don't know why they needed it, but they never got it. Meagan: I know. It's so weird, “We need your blood right now.” It's like, “Really? Why?” Sarah: Yeah. Especially when, “Oh, I'm in transition about to have a baby.” I think you're okay. Meagan: Seriously. Sarah: I had that. So that happened and then my doula was like, “Well, do you think you want to get in the bed?” I'm like, “Yes. If a baby is coming, I need to be on the bed.” So again, my favorite position—even my tub position was my hands and knees. I was draping my hand on the back of the bed kind of in that—I wasn't really hands and knees because I started that way and then I ended up hugging a pillow and kind of squatting back. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Sarah: Yeah. I started pushing. Again, my waters hadn't broken yet which was obviously, this is a big thing with my provider. He is hands-off. Any other provider would have said, “Do you want me to break your water?” Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: That would have been a thing. It was kind of interesting that “Nope. I'm just doing it all on my own what my body wants to do.” I was pushing for about 10 minutes and then my waters exploded. They all knew it was coming, so no one got drenched, but it was so loud. Meagan: Everyone was probably a little sensitive in that area. They were probably like, “I'll walk over here.” Sarah: Yes. They expected it. My doctor was like, “I might get drenched, but I'm ready for it.” But he didn't. Meagan: That's okay. Sarah: It was so loud. I was shocked. It was like a gunshot. It felt like it was just like BAM when I pushed it out. So that was great. Then about 5 minutes after that, he was born. I pushed the waters out and then pushed him out. His head was right there and they were like, “Oh, you can reach down and feel the head.” I'm like, “I can't.” I had to reach down. I'm like, “My arms are too short.” So then I pushed him out. It was about two pushes I think.Yes, as soon as that water was done, yeah. He was two pushes after that. It was about 20 minutes of pushing total. Meagan: Whoa. That's like nothing. Sarah: Yeah, then I got to flip around. They put him on me and they didn't cut the cord until it was done pulsing. They did delayed cord clamping. They did the golden hour. He was just on my chest the whole time. I birthed my placenta which was fine. I did have a small tear which was just something I was scared about with an unmedicated birth. I'm like, “Oh, that will be not pleasant. I hope I don't but again, no idea. I probably will. Most people do.” It was a very small, I guess, second-degree tear but he numbed it. It just felt like a bunch of little bee stings. He numbed it and stitched it. It was fine. Baby was on my chest for that whole hour. What was crazy to me—I also consented to having the Pitocin drip afterward to get the— Meagan: The uterus to contract down, mhmm. Sarah: Yes, yes. I had that. Once that was done, I was able to just stand up and go to the bathroom. Meagan: Amazing, right? Sarah: I could just get up to go to the bathroom. I felt good. I felt fine. This was about 10:50 in the morning, so yeah. I was at the hospital for an hour and a half before he was born. Later that night around 5:00, we had family come over to see the baby that night. I felt as great as could be with still normal postpartum stuff. Meagan: Right. You did just push a baby out. But you weren't knocked out and coming too and all of those other things. Sarah: Yes. So yeah. That's about it for that.Meagan: Aw, yes. Well, congratulations. I'm sure that was a very different experience. I mean, I'm sure both babies were, right? We all cherish our babies' births but to be more present in your baby's birth, I'm sure definitely left an impact. Sarah: Yeah. Even my husband told me that for this time, he actually teared up and felt like it was just such a more of an emotional experience even for him which is completely understandable. It was actually really scary for him with the C-section he told me. They tell you, “Hey, we're going to go put your wife out. We're going to come back and get you and then you're going to come and be part of it.” He's sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. They just kind of say, “Hey, you can't go in anymore. We knocked her out. You have to wait here. It's going to be a while.” Then he's just like, “Oh, is she going to be okay?” It was a little scary for him too, that first one. This was a lot, obviously, more emotional and just a really cool experience for both of us. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was very healing for both of you like you said. That couldn't have been easy for him walking in and seeing you in that manner. I mean, the fact that he even brought it up. “It was weird when I walked in and you were laying there but then I'm over here doing skin-to-skin with this baby.” Sarah: Yep. Meagan: I'm sure it was so healing for both of you. Huge congrats. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Oh, and one thing to mention with the doctor is that because I gave him all of my birth plan too, at no point in this hospital situation was I ever offered anything. They knew what my preferences were. They never said anything about any interventions at all. They never said, “Do you want us to break this water?” Everyone was on board. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. You really didn't feel like you had to fight along the way. Sarah: Yeah. It was all supportive which is what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah, and what you deserved. Sarah: Yeah. It was really great to have that. Honestly, the thing I also really liked about pushing in that position where you are facing the back of the bed was that I didn't see all of the people staring at me. It was nice because—and not that it would have mattered—but I'm kind of socially anxious in that situation so it was nice to just be focused on my husband's hand holding me. I've got my comb. I'm breathing. I'm totally in it. I'm not looking around. With the C-section, that labor was like everyone was staring at you. You're pushing and trying and nothing is happening. It was so nice to just be here in my world. I never even saw anyone. Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes you see people's faces and they are not wanting to communicate with their mouths so they communicate with their faces. So when you are just staring at all of these people surrounding you, you find yourself, “What are they saying?” Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: You start questioning it. It pulls you out of that space. It sounds like you were really able to stay in that space because maybe you didn't see any of that. Sarah: Yes, exactly. When I was pushing, it was really hard. I'm not saying it was easy. “Oh, unmedicated in 20 minutes.” No. It was hard work. There were times when some doubts would creep in and I was like, “What if he's in the canal too long? Will he be okay?” It would be easy for those doubts to creep in, but my doctor and my doula were all saying the things that I needed to hear. “You're doing it. Your body knows what to do. Keep pushing this way. Push like you're going to poop.” They were saying all of the things to keep me focused. It would be so easy if you're not ready to give birth to a baby, that feeling would be very scary. You would feel very out of control. I could see how easy it would be for that to be very, very scary. Having the people there that knew what to say to me was very helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. The team is really that powerful though. It really, really is. Sarah: Mhmm. Meagan: So get a team. If you're looking for a doula, we've got doulas on our website that are VBAC-trained and certified. Get a good provider who is supportive and loving and willing to just like Dr. Ryan, just yeah. “Let's do this. Let's do it.” Super supportive from the get-go. “Yeah, we have to have this consult, but I'm not not supporting you by sending you to this consult.” Sarah: Exactly. Yep. He's like, “This person knows that I do a lot of VBACs. They've been through this before.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Meagan: Well, huge, huge congrats.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Women of Strength, believe in yourselves!Brittani shares her inspiring two VBAC stories with us today-- one where she mostly prepared physically and one where she focused on intense mental preparation.While all three of her birth stories are wildly different, each taught Brittani valuable lessons.The image of Brittani standing in her bathroom being held up by her husband and doula while she pushes out her baby girl is absolutely unforgettable. We are so proud of you, Brittani!Additional LinksBrittani's Clothing Website - Nunuy ApparelHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello. We have another VBAC story. We actually have two VBAC stories for you today. We have our friend, Brittani and she is in Oregon. She has had two VBACs. Brittani, tell me. You grew up in Florida. Did you have your babies in Florida or were you in Oregon when you had your babies? Brittani: All three babies here in Oregon. I lived in Florida until I was 21-22. Meagan: Okay, all right. So all three babies in Oregon, so Oregon parents. Brittani: We are. Meagan: Listen up here. We have some VBAC stories for you. I don't know if you will share along the way but feel free to share where you gave birth. We have a lot of people a lot of the time write in and say, “Oh my gosh. I heard this story. I am in the same area. I would love to find a provider. Do you know their provider?” So if you feel that you want to share, feel free in your story to share. Brittani: I am happy to give shoutouts, yes. Meagan: Perfect. Perfect. Well, Brittani is a stay-at-home mom with her three children. They are all under the age of four, right? Brittani: Four and under, right? Our oldest will be five at the end of June. Meagan: Yay. Oh my gosh. You are busy. Brittani: Yes, we are. Meagan: Not only are you busy with three beautiful children, but you have created an amazing business. I just want you to share a little bit about this because I think a lot of people will for sure want to go check you out and make sure to know that if you guys miss it while you're driving or something, the link for all of her stuff will be in the show notes. So yeah, Brittani. Tell us a little bit about your clothing line. Brittani: That's so kind. Thanks, Meagan. I don't know if it'll come up in conversation but I had a really, really tough go at breastfeeding. All three babies, but especially with my first, I was really self-conscious about nursing in public. I got really into sewing at home and just had the inspiration to create my own line designed for breastfeeding. I have three pieces currently. They are all ethically made in my husband's home country of Peru. We use organic pima cotton which is the world's finest cotton. I'm working on two new designs, a jumpsuit, and a sweater. It's called Slow Fashion for a reason. It's taken forever because I need to let go of the perfectionism. Meagan: I know. But at the same time, it's your baby. Brittani: Yep. It's my fourth baby. Yep, yep. Maybe fifth if you count my husband. Meagan: Right. Brittani: Yes. I would even be happy to provide a discount code special to the listeners of this podcast, but yes. It's called Nunuy Nursing Apparel. I have an Instagram that I wish I could be more active on, but I have all of these babies. Meagan: You have three kids under the age of four. Brittani: Yes. Yes. I will get there. I will get there. The baby is going to be a year old next month, so yeah. Thank you for letting me touch on that. Meagan: Yay. Happy birthday. Brittani: Thank you. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I think It's so important. From one entrepreneur to another, I think it's so important to share. Especially, this is something that really does apply to all of our moms out there who want to breastfeed. Brittani: Yes, totally. Meagan: Well, thank you. Brittani: Thanks, Meagan: Review of the Week Meagan: Yeah, yeah. We'll get into a review and then we'll get into sharing these babies' stories. Obviously, they're all amazing. Okay, so we have a review and it was on Apple Podcasts from sydmobley. It says, “Grateful to have found The VBAC Link. I was recently able to have a successful home VBAC—” so HBAC. H-B-A-C. “—due to a large part of Meagan and Julie and the stories of the ladies featured in The VBAC Link. I cannot say enough about the comfort I found in knowing I was not alone in what I was doing and going through. That so many ladies had come before me and found peace in their empowered birth. What a lifesaver these testimonies were for me.” Oh, I love that. I love that so much. You know, we were talking about this before. I wish—there were birth story podcasts and things like that out when I was going for my VBAC after two Cesarean births. I wish so much that there was something like this that was more specific to VBAC. Something that I can relate to and not feel alone just like Syd because the VBAC world can feel very lonely. Brittani: It is. Meagan: It can feel really lonely and then if you're in an area that is really not supportive—I mean, I felt lonely in Utah where VBAC is supported. I can't imagine how those who are in rural areas or non-supportive areas or even where there are VBAC bans where they feel— Brittani: The bans blew my mind. Someone made a comment to me, “They let you have a VBAC?” I was like, “Let me?” Meagan: Let me, yeah. Yes. You're like, “Hold on. Hold on. No one let me.” But so many people feel so stuck that they have no option. If financial means or whatever are not to a place where you can just pick up your family or yourself and go to another state and have a baby, that can really be terrible. So anyway, thank you for your review, Syd. I really appreciate it and as always, if you love the podcast as well, we'd love your review. Brittani's Stories Meagan: Okay, Brittani. Let's share these baby stories of yours. Brittani: Thank you. I do just want to start by saying thank you for inviting me here. It feels really surreal to tell my—I also never thought I'd have three babies—but to tell my three stories on this podcast that literally gave me all of the strength and guidance to get through my VBACs. Meagan: Oh, it warms my heart. Brittani: We always have a VBAC story because of a Cesarean birth story. I had a primary Cesarean with my oldest, Olivia. The pregnancy was so easy and I did feel like one of those women that were like, you're just glowing and everything's fantastic. But around 28 weeks, my well-established OBGYN told me that she was breech. I didn't really understand what that meant. I'm a very anxious person so I went into full-on panic mode. Meagan: Research mode? Brittani: Yes, yes. You don't really think about Cesareans. I was more terrified to get the epidural because I hate needles. I did try everything. I followed Spinning Babies techniques. I was tortured with needles in my toes and moxi with the acupuncture. I did chiropractic work. Meagan: Bladder 6. Brittani: Yes, yeah. I lay upside down on an ironing board. I did inversions on the stairs and she just was determined to come into the world feet first. My OB wanted me to schedule a Cesarean for 39 weeks. I somehow talked her into going to 39 weeks and 5 days. Her due date fell on a Sunday and they “refused to let me go past 40 weeks.” If I knew what I know now. So we did it on a Friday super early in the morning. I was so terrified. They would not let my husband in for the spinal injection so thankfully, I had established rapport with my doctor. She held my hand through the whole thing. The spinal was done. They did all of the things. I had written a gentle Cesarean birth plan. My doctor followed most of it, but her colleague just started chitchatting her up asking about summer plans. I wish I had the—I don't want to say the guts, but I wish I had spoken up for myself and said, “Yeah, this is my baby's birth. Can you just walk me through what's happening?” because it's so bizarre for half of your body to feel numb. Meagan: Ability, yeah. Brittani: My heart was racing. Oh my goodness. So baby was born. Everything was fine. They did take her from me and wiped her all off before they gave her to me. While the experience wasn't traumatic rushing into the OR, it was planned, but the actual Cesarean experience was pretty traumatic for me. I'm sure some of that still carries on in my nervous system today but because of that experience, we knew we were going to have a second. I just knew. I was like, “I'm never going through that again.” I found your podcast and started preparing. About 15 months after our first was born, I got pregnant with our second. I started out with the same care team, but my doctor had moved on then you get rotated around. I stayed for the first trimester, but every new midwife or OB that I got was just saying all of these bad things about VBAC. I was like, “This is not the place for me.” Meagan: Good for you for recognizing that. It's a really hard place to be. Brittani: Yeah. It's not easy to switch. Meagan: It's really not. It's daunting. It's scary, right? Yeah. Brittani: Totally. I do live in an amazing place with very supportive providers and lots of options. We have several free-standing birth centers. There are birth centers with midwives, so I chose to do an out-of-hospital birth center. The birth team there is called “Omnum Midwifery” and they are just right there in southeast Portland. So they had four midwives at the time. Also, appointments were an hour long. They cared about you and asked you questions. The OB appointments were just so fast. You forget to ask things. It's kind of like a whirlwind. This was a much slower pace. You feel really involved. Meagan: Really, really cared for. Brittani: So different. I wish I knew more about this, but my husband says, “Hindsight's 20/20,” so you just work with what you've got. This pregnancy was really bad with nausea in the beginning, so I kind of had this feeling, “I hope it's a boy,” because we already had a girl. We had two so we thought— Meagan: One girl, one boy. Brittani: Perfect, yeah. He stayed head-down. They found him at his anatomy scan head-down. He stayed there the whole time which was awesome because I was so worried about that, another breech baby. I naturally went into labor at 40 weeks and 2 days. It was pretty early in the morning. I went to the bathroom. I had been having—I don't love the work Braxton Hicks—practice contractions and when I wiped, I had some blood-tinged mucus. I just knew it was different. I called my mom. She came over to be with our oldest. I touched base with the midwives. They actually came and did a home visit to check on me and baby first and then said, “Okay. Let's meet at the birth center in a few hours.”I was already experiencing contractions where I had to hold onto something and I couldn't talk and had to breathe through it. I think that kind of psyched me out. I was like, “If it's this hard right now, what's going to happen in active labor?” I really did trip myself out that way. But we got to the birth center which was so lovely. They had the bath ready for me. I was in and out of the bath, but after struggling pretty hard, I think I was in labor at this point for 15+ hours, I asked for a cervical check. They hadn't even offered or touched. I was at 7 which was pretty exciting. Meagan: Wow, yeah. Brittani: Yeah. It was the first time I had been in labor. I didn't labor with our first. However, things started to get really, really difficult and I had double-peaking contractions for hours on end. Meagan: You weren't getting a break. Brittani: Not even close. And oh, Meagan. I lost my doula because of COVID. They stopped letting people come into the hospitals as a “guest” or “visitor”. I'm putting that in quotation marks because I feel that every single birthing woman on this planet deserves support. It's not a visitor. It's part of your birth team. Meagan: It's essential. Brittani: I agree. Meagan: I know. I know. I was the doula on the other end during COVID dropping at the door just bawling my eyes out— Brittani: Because you feel so invested, yeah. Meagan: Or feeling very angry because someone was like, “Hey, they just told me that you can no longer be with me.” But our hospital did start finding that people were dropping the hospital, so they started making doulas essential. That's why they were like, “They are essential to this plan.” Brittani: So essential, mhmm. Meagan: That is so hard to have a plan and then lose your doula. Brittani: Yes. I guess I should backtrack slightly. I hired a birth photographer because that was super important to me and then I hired a doula. The company my doula was working for offered virtual services, but I'm like, “I'm going to end up throwing the computer at the wall.” Meagan: It's really hard. It's really hard. Brittani: I wanted hands-on. I wanted to be touched. I wanted to be talked through it. So I did lose our doula, but anyway, I really believe that if she had been there, it would definitely have given me a little more strength because nobody was there to just be like, “You can do this.” Meagan: Yeah, your cheerleader. Your husband probably needed her too. Brittani: Yeah, doulas are totally for the partner as well, my goodness, because sometimes they feel totally lost and just don't know what to do. When I was going through contractions, I just started rhythmically tapping on things. I wasn't counting out loud, but I would count in my head because it just helped me feel really present and grounded like I was in control of something. But that counting and tapping in my head turned into pounding on the wall and every time I knew that second surge was coming, my butt would just clench. Meagan: Just tense up, yeah. Brittani: I just couldn't relax. I had some glute pain throughout the pregnancy and at this point, it felt like there were just electric shocks going down my legs. I don't want to scare anybody, but it was so taxing that I literally begged to transfer to the hospital. It took a lot longer to get a call back from the hospital than I expected. When I first asked to transfer, by the time we got there, it had been 4 hours with these double contractions. It was awful, Meagan. So the midwives also couldn't transfer with me because of COVID, so my husband and I were on our own— Meagan: With a new team. Brittani: Yeah, just the two of us there. We get to the hospital. The anesthesiologist was busy so even if you transfer, it still takes a long time to get the epidural. Meagan: So prepare for that mentally, for sure. Brittani: Yes, absolutely. I also forgot to mention they gave me some of the laughing gas at the birth center. Meagan: Oh, nitrous oxide? Brittani: It didn't help. It didn't help. I think I was just too deep into it to get my rhythm back, unfortunately. I prepared so much physically for the VBAC that I really didn't take the time to prepare as much mentally as I could have. So we get to the hospital. I go. I get in. They hook me up to the IV. The nurse offered me Fentanyl. She said it would take the edge off. Meagan: Even at 7 centimeters, I'm shocked. Brittani: It was brutal. I wish I hadn't done it. It made me so dizzy and really disoriented. Meagan: Kind of foggy. Brittani: Yes. I hadn't eaten since the morning and here we were at 7:00 at night. So we're moving on. Everybody's like, “Oh, you transferred from the birth center.” At some point, I wanted to slap somebody. I'm like, “Can we just let me have my baby instead of telling me where I came from? I know that I transferred to the hospital.” Meagan: I just came here to have a baby. That is where I came from. I came here. Brittani: Let's just do this. But really, Meagan, I felt like I should have just gone in with this flashing neon sign, "Danger VBAC, Danger VBAC.” Meagan: Really? Brittani: So I got the epidural placed. I had the machinery hooked up. If you're not breathing well or if you move a little too much, those machines get so wonky. They wanted to break my bag of water to put the little internal monitor on. I really educated myself when I knew our doula wasn't coming. I made a hospital birth plan. I made a backup Cesarean birth plan. We really just advocated for ourselves. We declined the monitor. They ended up bringing in closer to full dilation a piece of paper saying I had a 79% success rate for my VBAC. Meagan: What? In the middle of labor, you're at 7 centimeters. Brittani: I think at this point I might have been at 9 because she checked me and my bag of water hadn't broken yet. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Brittani: So I happily signed saying that I do not want a repeat Cesarean. They did give the risks of VBAC and a repeat C-section which most people don't talk about the risks for both. Both carry risks. Yep. So I agreed to let them break my bag at 9 centimeters. There was some meconium in the water. My poor baby had just been put through the wringer with these double-peaking contractions. She tells me, “Let's do a practice push,” and when I did that, I felt my stomach acid come up into my throat. I was so exhausted, Meagan. I was just like, “I'm going to end up in the OR.” I just was ready to give up. Meagan: You just felt defeat. Brittani: Yeah. My husband was so tired but still there the whole time. I did again advocate for myself and was like, “Look. You guys have been in and out of this room. I've had zero rest. I've been in labor for over 24 hours.” She said, “Well, we'll give you an hour.” But someone was probably in every 15 minutes because they were getting all of the birth stuff ready and there was meconium in the water so they were prepping the NICU team. Somebody was supposed to be there for the actual birth to make sure he didn't need to be suctioned. So they let me rest but I didn't really rest. Then the midwife comes back in and says, “Since this is your first vaginal birth, we're going to prepare to push for 2-3 hours.” I was like, “Nope. That's not happening.” I had this whole vision of me birthing the baby. It was not in a supine position with both of my legs in the air and a nurse on one side and my husband on the other. She's telling me, “Hold your breath. Push as hard as you can.” They call it purple pushing because— Meagan: Your face goes purple. You lose your oxygen. Brittani: Sometimes blood vessels will break. Yes.  So thankfully—my son's name is Enrique—he handled the pushing really well. I got him out in 45 minutes. Meagan: Which is awesome. Brittani: Yeah. The weird thing was—my poor little guy. He had a really rough start. My midwife stepped away. I must have watched dozens of birth videos. My baby is crowning. She asked if I wanted to touch his head which gave me so much more strength. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm right there. I know I can do this.” They turn the epidural off when you start pushing, so I got to feel all of that pressure. I felt like I needed to take a really big poop. It was kind of scary. So as he is crowning, I could just feel everything stretching. I don't know why, but she stepped away. We had been doing three pretty valiant pushes. We. I was doing pretty valiant pushes with each contraction. I hated that feeling of him just sitting right there and I needed him out. Usually, just the head is born, so I gave a fourth push even though the midwife had walked away and my little boy just came shooting out. Nobody was there to catch him. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Brittani: His cord was so long and I'm so grateful because they take the bottom of the bed off and what if he had fallen on the floor? My little dude-- Meagan: So did he stay on the bed? Brittani: He did. He did not fall, but my poor little guy. He screamed and screamed for a whole hour. He didn't want to breastfeed. The staff wasn't super duper attentive, but the recovery from that birth was just so much different. I had some pelvic floor damage that I'm still dealing with a little bit today but it's because I've had back to back to back babies and I really do think that athletic pushing just might not have been the sole cause, but it did some damage to my pelvic floor. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: So after his birth, my husband got a vasectomy. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say are you going to mention what happened after? Yeah, okay. Okay. Brittani: It was so crazy. In November 2020, he got a vasectomy. We were just two babies, that's it. A boy and a girl. A couple of months go by and he's taking his samples back to the lab. They were like, “You still have lots of activity and it's really plentiful.” I'm just like, “How does this happen?” Meagan: How does this happen? Brittani: Oregon is a great state though. They cover sterilization at 100% when you have insurance so at least we didn't have to pay a ton of money to have it done, but as odd as it sounds, I just kind of felt like I questioned everything in my life. I have two siblings. My husband, Gonzalo, has two siblings and so just literally joking, Meagan, one night, I said, “I think I want another baby.” I thought he was going to say, “We got a vasectomy for a reason. Why would we go for a third?” Meagan: No! Yeah. Brittani: He was like, “Well, we probably would need a bigger car. If it's a boy, he'd have to share a room with Enrique. So he started talking about all of these things and I was like, “What?” Meagan: The logistics of it almost like he had thought about it before. Brittani: So it took us a couple of months and we agreed to have one more baby. I never thought I would have three children ever, but our little girl just really wanted to be here so we did get pregnant with our third. This was by far my hardest, most unpleasant pregnancy. I gained a ton of weight but I was nauseous almost to the end of the second trimester. Awful. So I'm actually really glad. I'm going to miss having life inside of my belly because it's just amazing, but that pregnancy was rough enough that I'm like, “Okay. I think that's good. I'm satisfied.” Meagan: You're like, “Let's make sure that vasectomy is 100% this time.” Brittani: That's right. So this time around, as I stated in my earlier VBAC birth story, I prepared so much physically, so this time unfortunately, the weight gain got the best of me, but I was really dedicated to mental preparation. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: I chose a home birth midwife team. Their names are Alicia and Nicole and they are with Flourish Midwifery also in Portland. They are amazing home birth midwives. I started with them really early on and my whole deal with this home birth was that I changed my language. I stopped using contractions. I said “surges”. I was just using different terms to describe birth and I went in just feeling like, “This doesn't have to be scary. This could be an amazing experience.” Surges just feel like really intense period cramps and you can literally feel the energy coming down. I don't know if you're a Bruno Mars fan but his 24-karat Magic was like, “Don't fight the feeling. Invite the feeling.” So I just kept saying, “I can do this.” I have a friend. She's a hypnosis coach turned friend and she does Hypnobirthing. My husband also wasn't super involved in the prep for Enrique's VBAC, but he was very involved with this one. So I did Hypnobirthing with my friend, Christy. Her business is called Enter Into Calm. She's also local-ish. She's a couple of hours away from me here in Oregon. So I just meditated to their rainbow—it's Hypnobirthing—relaxation every day. I listened to birth affirmations literally in the car back and forth anywhere I was going. Ina May's Spiritual Midwifery book—I rented it from the library three times and I read all of those birth stories. I dedicated myself so much to all of these positive, amazing birth stories and just gathered that collective strength. I just truly felt it in my bones. I was like, “I've got this.” Then 36 weeks, I had an anterior placenta. I didn't feel—Sophia's her name. I didn't feel Sophia move as much during this last pregnancy, so I was always a little like, “What's going on?” Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: At 36 weeks, we had the placement of my placenta checked and baby was breech. 36 weeks. I have chills all over my body right now just saying it out loud. My husband didn't go with me because it was just going to be a quick check of my placenta. I felt so defeated. I broke down crying and called my midwives. I took a day to just feel really crappy and sorry for myself. Then I decided to do something about it. I was like, “You know what? I prepared so hard for this. I'm not just going to give up these last four weeks or whatever.” Meagan: Right. Right. Brittani: Again, I'm so lucky to be where I am. I declined an ECV, external cephalic version-- I think I'm pronouncing that right—where they manipulate your belly to move the baby with our first because the OB just straight up told me that I'm going to want an epidural placed. “We're going to numb you, give you muscle relaxers and by the way, I have less than a 10% success rate.” So I was like, “I'm not going to do that.” But this time around, my midwives knew another home birth midwife who has her own acupuncture and chiropractic practice as well as delivering babies. Meagan: Breech babies? Brittani: Well, I did find breech home birth midwives but she does ECVs and she's incredibly successful. Meagan: Awesome. Brittani: So I went to her office at 38 weeks. I had done Spinning Babies. The information is all free on their website, but they have a specific program where you can pay a little bit of money to have it all on one sheet. My husband helped me do some belly sifting. I did all of these things for six days which is supposed to give more space in the womb. It's not always going to turn the baby because she didn't turn, but also just creates that extra space to help the ECV have a higher success rate. Meagan: Right. Brittani: So we get there. One of my midwives came with me which was so lovely. We brought some oil. The midwife put those darn needles in my pinky toes and it does hurt. She left us for 10 or 15 minutes. Alicia just massaged my belly and we talked to the baby. It was actually really beautiful. I took some really deep breaths. Meagan: Sounds like it. Brittani: While it was incredibly intense, I ended up with some bruising around my ribcage because she got Sophia transverse then she slipped back. So we had to do a second go and I was really worried it wasn't going to work, but she just had some kind of magic. I remember the rhythmic rocking when I knew she was just getting to the head-down position. My heart is even racing just retelling the story. So when she gets her head down, just busted into tears of relief and disbelief. Then I sat on the stool and she checked the baby's heart rate. Her heart rate never dipped and I just accredit that to me being so calm. I talked to her. I practiced for 5 months at this point doing this meditation and breath work so it was such a crazy, amazing experience. I ended up going into labor on her due date. During my meditation—you can't plan, but in my mind, I was like, “I'd love to go into labor when the older two are asleep and they wake up to a new baby sister.” I went into labor just as the kids were going to sleep. It picked up really quickly. I had the tub, but we didn't have time to fill it up. I was in my tub. I ended up getting out and we called the midwife around 3:00 AM. The midwife and doula got there between 4:00 and 4:30. I was on the bed at this point. I remember feeling this—I don't know how to describe it right at this point, but it was just such an intense feeling in my back. I now know it was her coming through the birth canal, but I screamed and I was like, “Somebody squeeze my hips!” I can't remember how many hours, but instead of doing the tapping like I did with my other when I was unmedicated at the time, it was really crazy. I was so loud. I can't believe the kiddos didn't wake up. It was like, “I can do this,” with this really low voice trying to bring the baby down. Meagan: And opening your throat. Brittani: I was such a low almost like a growl. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: It was either, “I can do this” or “I've got this”. I felt it in my body, Meagan. I was like, “This is happening.” Meagan: Oh, that's amazing. Brittani: They somehow got me off my bed because they wanted me to move. I think they could tell I was getting ready to push and I was like, “I can't do it.” So the three of them somehow helped me to the short walk into my bathroom. This big birth tub is in there with four adults and they get me to sit down on the toilet. I'll never forget this. My doula who also was a VBAC mama and my acupuncturist for both my second and third pregnancy, she came to be our doula. I was completely naked also which I never thought would happen but that's just what happened. She wiped my sweaty hair off my face and told me how beautiful I looked. I can't even describe how that just changed everything because I was feeling really scared and I said at one point, “I don't think I can do this.” Those women just—I could not have done it without their presence. Anyways, I sat on the toilet and I heard this really loud pop. My water released then the rest of it was kind of just a blur. She'd only checked Sophia's heartbeat twice. I didn't have one vaginal exam and here I am and my baby's getting ready to be born. They asked me to stand up and I was like, “Not happening.” So I'm holding on with one arm on my husband, my doula on the other and I actually sunk my teeth into my doula's arm as I was standing up. It was so intense. Meagan: I was bit one time as a doula! Brittani: Oh my gosh. Meagan: After, she was like, “Did I bite you or did I imagine that?” I'm like, “Yeah, you did. That's okay though.” She bit into my hand. She grabbed my hand. Brittani: It's just such a primal thing. You're not really in control. Things happen. Meagan: Yeah, that's what she said. She said, “I thought I maybe did it but then maybe I imagined it.” Brittani: Crazy. I actually felt the same way. I was thinking about it, then I did weeks later apologize to her, but it was just like, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Sophia was born so quickly. When I stood up, my legs were shaking. I had my husband and my doula. Alicia was like, “Do you want to reach down and touch your baby?” I just couldn't gather the strength to let someone's arm go, so I said, “No.” Then she offered to let my husband catch her and I was like, “You're not going anywhere.” Meagan: He's holding me up! Brittani: I really thought that I pushed for a long time, but she told me it was less than 5 minutes. Meagan: Whoa. Brittani: She just came right out. She had a nuchal cord. She had a really short cord too and she was just placed directly on my belly. They helped me walk from there to the bed and I just couldn't believe I did it. It was so surreal. Then I went through this—I had really bad shakes after. They said, “It's just the hormones.”Meagan: Adrenaline. Brittani: But it was wild. I felt so cold. They popped towels in the dryer for me and got me all warm. Wow. Just what a crazy experience. And Meagan, the second vasectomy worked. Meagan: See? This baby girl just wanted to be in your family. Brittani: Not even kidding. She just made our little family complete. Meagan: So complete. Brittani: Yeah. She really did want to be with us, our sweet Sophia. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I love that too that you were all in this bathroom, everybody hands-on right there and you could feel their strength obviously. Brittani: Amazing. Meagan: Yes, and then just boom. Baby's out. Brittani: I still can't believe it. Intact perineum actually. Both births, intact perineum. Meagan: I think that has something to do with position and control as well. Brittani: Totally. Gravity was so in my favor. Meagan: Mhmm and then not being stuck on your back in a crazy position. Brittani: Yes, which goes against all of the laws of gravity. Yeah. Being on your back is hard but for an epidural, it's kind of the only choice you really have, unfortunately. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. They can move you side to side but a lot of the time, the providers don't feel comfortable with that. They really don't. Brittani: Of course. They want you in a laid-back position. I totally understand which is bad for what do they call it? Biological birth. I can't think of the word right now. Meagan: No, I was going to say physiological birth. Brittani: Yes, thank you. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yep. Yep. Meagan: Physiological. Yes, anyway. Yes. That is also to say if you guys are wanting an epidural and you're like, you know, you can still fight for other positions. Speak up and like she was saying in the OR, we wish that we could. It's just hard. We want. We're here in our heads saying things, but we can't vocalize it so if you are one of those people that feel like you would get there, I was too. My doctor was also in the OR talking about how sad they were that it was snowing outside and how they just got back from Hawaii. Brittani: Oh my goodness. Meagan: But have someone else, your birthing partner, your husband or your doula, or someone else there to say, “Hey, I know that this would mean a lot to her,” and communicate that, right? Brittani: I love that. Yes. You absolutely can and should. Meagan: And should. If you feel like you can't articulate it or there's not someone with you, just move as much as you can, right?Brittani: Right. I should have mentioned that I did ask for a peanut ball and we rotated while I had the epidural back and forth. They wanted me to push. I asked for some rest. I didn't get great rest, but you can absolutely advocate for yourself and ask for what you want. And yes, doulas or birth partners are the ones that get to be the bad guy. Let them do it. You do your thing and let somebody else do the uncomfortable things. Let's do it this way. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. We talk about it. I'm happy to be the bad guy. I'm happy to be the bad guy. It's not bad for someone to say something, but unfortunately, sometimes we are looking like the annoying ones but I'll be annoying for you. Well, congratulations. Brittani: Thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Congratulations on the completion of your family. I mean, I would usually say that would suck to not have it work but it sounds like it did not suck to not have the vasectomy go through. It's perfect and is exactly what you needed. Brittani: I quite possibly might have the world's best husband so I wouldn't have done it had I not married him. Meagan: Yes. Well, congratulations. You talked about how with the second VBAC, the third pregnancy, you really focused more on the mental aspect. This is where it's really hard because we want to find this balance between physically and educationally preparing for our VBACs but then also emotionally preparing. So is there anything that you—I mean it sounds like you did a lot. But is there anything that you are like, “This is something that I did that I truly felt I carried through my entire birth?” Brittani: Definitely believing in myself. When you have that self-efficacy, nothing can really stop you. It is important to prepare physically as well because our bodies go through a very physical process and it is physically taxing to be pregnant and then give birth regardless of how your baby enters the world. So just finding that balance of also not overwhelming myself because I get overwhelmed really easily. I just picked one main thing to focus on and where I found the most strength was reading all of the birth stories and listening to your podcast. I even went in the Facebook community, your Facebook group, and told my son's birth story and just sharing things because you really aren't alone. There is somebody else going through it. You can find your little village of people and my biggest thing is I always didn't entertain any negativity. If I talked about, “I'm going to have my baby at home,” or getting the looks or, “Ooh, is that safe?” I'm such a “Let me tell you why I'm right” kind of person. I chose silence at that point. I was like, “I believe in myself. I know I can do this,” and I just kind of put a wall up if you will to any of that negativity. And just know the facts. There is plenty of great information on your website. I knew all of the statistics and I was so educated and when I ended up in the hospital, it worked to my benefit because I was able to advocate for myself. Meagan: Yeah, especially with your team changing. Crazy. I love that. Believe in yourself. Brittani: Women of Strength, yes. Meagan: Women of Strength, you are strong and you can do it. You can get through anything. It's okay if plans change. Brittani: Totally. Mine did several times. Meagan: But also, know that if plans change, it doesn't mean that everything is just out the window. It doesn't have to be that way. We know that sometimes, things happen and it feels like everything just went out the window. It feels defeating and it feels frustrating but know that there are still options. There are still options. Brittani: Always. Meagan: And you are strong.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

PODCAST EPISODE - ASHLEY'S BIRTH STORIES - QUICK BIRTHS - #93 Join your host Sophia as her and Ashley discuss her two fast births. They discuss GBS, tandem nursing, prodromal labor, anemia, and food sensitivities. Ashley had her second baby at home and now wants every mama to have a home birth. Ashley feels her birth was so empowering, natural, serene, magical....like a dream. She wishes this experience for every mama and without anyone else's intervention. Just you in your power.  Ashley's recommendations: Ina May's Guide to Childbirth book Birth without Fear book Lily Nicols Real Food for Pregnancy book Aspirin for food sensitivities: https://healthnatura.com/aspirin-powder-usp-60g/ and https://www.instagram.com/p/CaQOgLnP49q/?img_index=1 Connect with Ashley: IG: @Coachashleys Listen here: IG: linktree in bio FB: https://anchor.fm/bornwild/episodes/93--Ashleys-Birth-Stories---Quick-Births-e283vlk @sophiabirth @bayareahomebirth @ninabasker @familyfocusdoulacare @love.inlabor @bornwildmidwifery Stay Wild

In today's episode, we talk with Emily Helgerson, an EBB Childbirth Class Graduate about how taking the EBB Childbirth class helped her navigate transferring from a birth center to the hospital after experiencing premature rupture of membranes while being positive for Group B Strep.   Emily Helgerson holds a Bachelor of Arts in elementary education in Spanish, with a minor in Italian, from the University of Minnesota and a master's in second language teaching with a focus on immersion from McGill University. Emily taught Spanish immersion elementary school before deciding to stay home with baby Teddy, after he was born. Her and her partner, Brad, live in Minneapolis with their toddler and two cats. In 2023, it was announced that Emily will be the new Dean of Skovsøen, the Danish language village in Northern Minnesota.   Emily shares how the Evidence Based Birth Childbirth Class provided tools, resources and preparation that her and her partner were able to practice throughout pregnancy and remain empowered when they faced a hospital transfer. Emily talks about her Golden Ticket team, with her partner, doula (who is also her mom!) and the team of midwives between the birth center and the hospital.     We will also introduce a newer research topic regarding placenta size, placental measurement and its correlation to newborn health outcomes.   Content Warning: Group B Strep, Antibiotics for group B Strep, Heart decelerations, birth center transfer to hospital     Resources:   Check out EBB's Signature Articles: EBB Signature Article on PROM EBB Signature Article on GBS   Follow Emily Helgerson's Parenting Group on IG @Common Ground Parenting    Listen to the following podcasts:  Listen to EBB 262 to hear about advocating for your newborn in the hospital Listen to EBB's Group B Strep Podcast Series here Listen to EBB's Webinar replay here Listen to Lisa Taylor's Podcast Birth Matters   Check out these pregnancy books   ·      Ina May's Guide to Childbirth ·      The Birth Partner ·      Mayo Clinic Guide to Your Baby's First Years ·      Pregnancy Day-by-Day book   Blooma's Prenatal Yoga Learn more about Spinning Babies here Subscribe to Jen McLellans pregnancy week by week here Learn more about Sharon Quinn's EBB Childbirth Class here

In this series, we will be hearing from women about their experience with birth. We will be hearing the in's and out's of how their births felt for them, what they chose and why they chose that, and experience it alongside them as they relive it for themselves! In this episode, we chat with Daesha about her three home births! Daesha is a mother of 3, ages 3 and under. Her youngest child was born less than a month ago. She is primarily a stay at home mom, but she also sets some time aside each week to support other mothers as a pre and postnatal fitness coach, and doula. Her own experiences with personal training, home births, and a lot of personal research have contributed towards her passion to help mothers become the fullest version of themselves in motherhood. In this episode, we chat through so many intricacies of home birth as we revisit each of her births! Join us for our newest episode in our series: Redemptive Birth Stories.  Resources Daesha mentions:  Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: Ina May Gaskin Gentle Birth/ Gentle Mothering: A Doctor's Guide to Natural Childbirth and Gentle Early Parenting Choices Documentary: Business of Being Born  Indie Birth Private Association

Pain-free childbirth is a myth.... right?   Laura is a mother of 3, and she and her husband were newly married when they became unexpectedly pregnant.  They had recently moved, and found themselves moving back into Laura's parents' house as they got their finances in order.    Because she had never spent time around babies, Laura took a nannying job for a newborn during her pregnancy.  When he napped, she would read books.  A family member gave her Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, and at 35 weeks her entire outlook on birth shifted.  She even considered a homebirth, but soon realized this would not be possible in her family's house.   Laura switched to midwifery care within the hospital and had a beautiful natural birth.  She wanted to give birth in the water, which she did.   When she became pregnant again 11 months later, she prayed for a shorter birthing time.  That's exactly what she got-- though the experience left her reeling and feeling out of control, even slightly scared of birth.  She did have a natural birth, and it was short, but it was quite stressful for her.   During this postpartum experience, Laura struggled immensely.  She had an incredibly emotional time and leaned on her faith like never before.  She learned about grace on a personal level, and worked through many problems and emotions that had previously never seen the light of day.  Finally, she felt like she could see the light at the end of the tunnel....   And then Laura found out that she was pregnant again.  This came as a massive shock to her, as she and her husband were not planning for this.  While the realization that she was carrying new life initially thrilled her, once the thought set in, Laura began to panic with fear that she would have to go through all of this postpartum pain and suffering again.  She worried that she was nutritionally depleted, and that this third pregnancy would cause more depletion.   Laura continued to rely on her faith and her husband, and she prayed about her upcoming birth.  She was finally going to be able to have a homebirth, and she wanted this experience to be not only spiritual, but also pain free.  She dedicated time and prayer to this end, and she created space for this to happen.   When Laura had her third baby, all were shocked to see her raising her hands in worship during her contractions.  When her baby crowned, and then the head was born, Laura truly did not realize it had happened.  Her birth was 100% pain-free.   Laura emphasized the fact that this can be the case for anyone-- creating space for this type of positive outcome is so important.   Episode Roundup:   I wanted to touch once again on this idea on creating space for the positive experiences.  I love that Laura cleared her fears when necessary and focused on the notion that she could indeed have a beautiful, pain-free experience.  It's a great reminder for us all: Clear fears and create space for the beautiful experience that birth can be!     Resources: Ina May's Guide to Childbirth   Join The Homebirth Collective Join Happy Homebirth Academy Code PODCAST for 10% off 

We know it's almost summer, but here are some of our spring "currentlys" we'd love to share with you! Tune in for reading and podcast suggestions, favorite ways we have been learning, resting, growing, and others. Some Mentioned Favorites: Podcasts: Let's Talk About It https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lets-talk-about-it-with-taylor-nolan/id1321043863 What We Said: https://dearmedia.com/shows/what-we-said/ It's Tea Time Somewhere: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/its-tea-time-somewhere/id1231400724 Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy: https://www.myessentialbirth.com/podcast The Bible Project: https://bibleproject.com/podcasts/the-bible-project-podcast/ That Sounds Fun: https://www.anniefdowns.com/thatsoundsfun/ The Snack Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-snack-show-with-jami-fallon/id1607547747 Let's Read the Gospels: https://www.anniefdowns.com/letsreadthegospels/ Drama Queens: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-drama-queens-83532602/ Office Ladies: https://officeladies.com/ Books: Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32127.Ina_May_s_Guide_to_Childbirth Babies Are Not Pizzas: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/52224442 Women Who Risk: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52610692-women-who-risk Tell Her Story: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tell-her-story-nijay-k-gupta/1141979815 Youtube: Michelle Reed: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqSemashVFvvLwwFUbne9Qw Celest Rayanne: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMoFq_PGQVDUFa9VS1Z44wQ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/morningbymorningpodcast/ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/morning-by-morning/message

What is it like planning a home birth as an expat in a new country? Well, Katie McCormick has some stories to share about that!  Katie and her husband Ryan decided to leave their life in Portland, Oregon - quit their jobs and travel across Europe. They decided to settle in Ireland, eloped and got pregnant shortly after.  Katie knew immediately that she wanted to have a home birth. But being an expat in a new country, she had no idea where to begin as far as planning and resources. In this Classic Doing It At Home episode, we speak with Katie in the last few weeks of her pregnancy and get to hear how she's feeling as the time in her pregnancy winds down and they prepare for baby's arrival. She also shares the experience of what it's like to have all of their family back in the States as they plan for home birth in their new home and country. Tune in and get ready for another inspiring pre-home birth story! Links From The Episode: Dublin Doulas: http://www.dublinfamilydoulas.com/ Hypnobirth course: https://us.hypnobirthing.com/ Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: https://amzn.to/41gwx8F Offers From Our Awesome Partners: Needed: https://bit.ly/2DuMBxP - use code DIAH to get 20% off your order Splash Blanket: https://bit.ly/3JPe1g0 - use code DIAH for 10% off your order Esembly: https://bit.ly/3eanCSz - use code DIH20 to get 20% off your order More From Doing It At Home: Send us your birth story: https://bit.ly/3jOjCKl Doing It At Home book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3vJcPmU DIAH Website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doingitathome/ DIAH YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pzuzQC DIAH Merch: www.diahpodcast.com/merch Give Back to DIAH: https://bit.ly/3qgm4r9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What helped you when you were preparing for home birth? For Paige, “Ina May's Guide to Childbirth” and Doing It At Home podcast were two of the biggest resources in her journey. In Paige's submitted audio story, she walks us through her preconception journey as well as the planning for home birth and the birth of her son, Cole. Themes and topics from Paige's story: Unexplained infertility and struggling to conceive IUI process Exploring a birthing center option Finding a midwife Support from husband Different positions during birth Postpartum hemorrhage Healing and recovery Addressing questions and comments around home birth Links From The Episode: Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: https://amzn.to/41gwx8F Offers From Our Awesome Partners: Needed: https://bit.ly/2DuMBxP - use code DIAH to get 20% off your order Splash Blanket: https://bit.ly/3JPe1g0 - use code DIAH for 10% off your order Esembly: https://bit.ly/3eanCSz - use code DIH20 to get 20% off your order More From Doing It At Home: Send us your birth story: https://bit.ly/3jOjCKl Doing It At Home book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3vJcPmU DIAH Website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doingitathome/ DIAH YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pzuzQC DIAH Merch: www.diahpodcast.com/merch Give Back to DIAH: https://bit.ly/3qgm4r9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We are bringing you extra episodes all month long in honor of Cesarean Awareness Month! Meagan and Julie kick off the conversation with a passionate discussion about the realities of birthing in a hospital setting. Doulas are birth workers who uniquely experience births in all settings. Meagan and Julie share what they have seen and how it has formed the strong opinions they have now. Additional LinksJulie's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsJulie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your cohost for the day, Julie Francom. I've missed you guys so much. It's so fun to be back here but I am also here with Meagan Heaton, the cofounder with me of The VBAC Link. We are so excited to be on a really special episode with you today. We were actually having lunch together the other day and talking about life, birth, and everything. We just decided that it would be better if we recorded the conversation so that's what we're going to do today. We're going to record our conversations about birth, VBAC, and everything in between. Review of the WeekBefore we get into it though, Meagan has a review for us. Meagan: Yay, yes I do. It's always so fun to have you on Julie. I am excited to have our conversation that we were having the other day only recording it because it is definitely a great conversation to be had and to be heard. If you guys didn't know, April is Cesarean Awareness Month. This month, we're going to be kicking off with some extra episodes in addition to our stories. Here is number one for you. As Julie said, I do have a review of the week. This is from mathletic and it says, “Empowering and Addicting.” It says, “This may be my second time leaving a review, but it is because I am preparing for my second VBAC and felt that it was necessary. I first found this podcast as I prepped for my VBAC in 2019. I religiously listened to a new episode on the way to and from work daily and am always excited for Wednesday morning's new episode.” Julie, that is crazy to me that people have been listening since 2019. Julie: Forever. Meagan: It is 2023. It says, “This podcast has given me so much education and strength that I took going into my TOLAC and achieving my successful VBAC in May 2019. I am now preparing for my VBAC as I am 36 weeks pregnant and due in early June.” This was in 2022 by the way so last year.“Although I have now had a VBAC, I knew starting my mornings off with this podcast again with this pregnancy would be something that would help me get into the right headspace. I sometimes feel like Meagan and Julie are now my new friends.”We are. We are friends with all of you. Julie: We are your friends. Meagan: Yes. “As we commute to work together–” We've been commuting to work with her, Julie. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: “I am very bummed to learn that there was a break, but I am so pumped when I found out that they were returning this May.” So yeah, seriously, this was a long time ago, you guys. We returned in 2022. “Thank you for all that you are doing in helping us mamas feel educated and strong as we go into our next births. I recommend this podcast to all my friends even the first-time mom friends as it's been such a great wealth of knowledge going into any birth.” I could not agree more. This podcast is going to teach you so much and not only how to have a VBAC but how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. As we know, Julie and I were talking about this, Cesareans are through the roof. It is above 32% here in 2023. It is sad. It's scary and it's concerning. It is concerning. Why are we having so many Cesareans? We are going to take one moment and then we are going to get going into this wonderful new episode. Cesarean Awareness MonthMeagan: Okay, Julie. Hi. I miss you. I love you. I just saw you last week. Julie: It was so great to have lunch with you and just jibber-jabbering away about life, the birth work, getting old, and my salty attitude about birth. We're going to talk about it.Meagan: Your salty attitude. You guys, she has become a little salty and sassy. Julie: I am. I've always been that way, but I feel like I was pretty good at toning it down and being diplomatic, especially doing The VBAC Link and things like that. I definitely have opinions as we all do. I was just making sure that we were including everybody and that everybody has a safe space here. We certainly want to do that on this episode as well, but I will hit 100 births this year. Meagan, you are probably at 600. Meagan: No. Julie: But either as a doula or a birth photographer and you know what? One thing that I wish people could understand a little bit more or take more seriously is that doulas and birth photographers probably have the most unique perspective on childbirth because we see births in the hospital, out of the hospital, at birth centers, with hospital OB/GYNS, hospital midwives, out of hospital midwives, and unassisted births. We have seen a few of those. We have such a unique perspective and we see how things unfold in each environment with each intervention and with each provider. I wish that somebody would hone into that and try and work to collect those experiences and perspectives because if you ever want to hear about the state of childbirth in the United States and probably even in the world because a lot of countries are not too different from ours, talk to a freaking birth worker that does hospital and home births because that is where you're going to find these priceless gems and perspectives that you're really going to learn from. Yeah. I just wish that people could see that. Meagan: It's hard because we have clients hire us as their doula or their birth photographer and we talked about this at lunch the other day how we come in and one of the mean things as a birth worker that we are going to do is talk about what birthing experience that person wants. It is important to us as birth workers and as your friends to help you get the best experience that you can get and help you get a lot of those things that you desire. Am I wrong there? That is one of the biggest things. Julie: No, I think that's right. Meagan: That's one of the biggest things of what being a doula is. It's one of the most important things is helping these clients and helping our parents get these births that they want. We come in and we ask things like, “What would you like for your birth? How do you envision your birth? What kind of things do you desire to happen or not happen in your birth?” It's more often than not a very similar answer. It's usually things like, “I would like to labor at home as long as possible. I would like to go unmedicated. If not, as long as possible before getting an epidural. I would like to have a vaginal birth and avoid unnecessary interventions.” Julie: Don't want to be induced. Meagan: “Don't want to be induced. I want to go into spontaneous labor,” is just what I was going to say so they don't want to be induced. “I want to avoid a Cesarean.”Julie: “I want my water to break on its own.” Meagan: Yep. “I want to avoid a Cesarean. I want to push as my body and myself direct.” Julie: “I don't want to push on my back.” Meagan; “I don't want to push on my back.” Things like this. If you're listening to this episode, I'm assuming you're shaking your head, “Yep. That's what I want too. That's what I want too.” It's not a bad thing that we want these things. It's not a bad thing. Julie: It's a good thing. It's natural. It's instinctual. It's primal. Meagan: Yes. These things are things that we want for a reason. What I hear when I hear these things is, “I want to birth the way my body is going to birth and was made to birth.” Right? Julie: Yep. Meagan: But as birth workers as Julie was talking about, we have this interesting perspective because we've seen things. I'm not going to sit and say that I've seen all of the scenarios and all the things in birth. I'm not. Again, no I have not been to 600 births but I have been to a lot. I'm still learning as I go but there are so many situations where I can see things unfolding. So we have this client and these people that are wanting this type of birth and then what Julie? 37, 38, 39 weeks. Julie: “Oh, we'd better do an ultrasound to see if your baby's measuring big or check your fluids My gosh, I hear you complaining so much about being pregnant. Let's just induce at 39 weeks. You can pick your baby's birthday. You can do this.” Or all of a sudden, maybe your blood pressure is maybe a little bit high so maybe you have preeclampsia so you have to test that. What does that do? It stresses you out so it makes your blood pressure high even more. Everyone starts to get a little anxious because the due date is approaching. Mom, dad, and parents are getting anxious. Providers are like, “Okay, well we don't want you to go past this date” Especially with VBAC. Oh my gosh, it's not safe to go after 40 weeks because that increases your chance of uterine rupture. Not true, by the way. Meagan: Or we've got a big baby. Julie: “Or we've got a big baby and your last baby was 8.5 pounds so we want to make sure.” All of these are non-evidence-based reasons because people treat 40 weeks like an expiration date rather than an average. That's when, in a hospital system, things start to happen that decrease your chances of all of those beautiful, perfect, wonderful things that you want in your birth. Meagan: Yes. Julie: Sorry, go ahead. Meagan: No, you're fine. You're fine. I was just going to say that this is what we see happen so often. We meet with our clients at 24-34 weeks pregnant and these are their desires. This is what their hearts and their souls are saying. Based on a lot of the time, what they have learned too. They know the evidence-based information so they are like, “Based on that, I don't want to do these things.” But then 37, 38, 39, 40 weeks come and we have these new introductions and new seeds being planted.For some reason, those things leave. They leave our minds. Julie: Well, you're tired. You're very pregnant. You're easily influenced and yes you want to be done. Yes, it sounds nice to be done sooner. Oh no, you don't want to have a complication or preeclampsia, or a big baby. That sounds scary. Shoulder dystocia sounds really complicated. In some instances, it is for sure, but when you start planting those little seeds, then they grow into self-doubt. It's easy to confuse our worries and our fears with intuition. Meagan: They're lost. Yes. Yes. That is the hardest part. We are getting these seeds planted and then they're being watered. The seeds are growing and the roots are pushing out what our intuition was saying from the beginning. Then we make choices and decisions. We are human beings that have the opportunity to make these choices and decisions, but sometimes we are backed into these corners because our seeds are being poured on. We are being flooded with overwhelming, scary feelings. As a birth worker, it can be frustrating. I'm going to be super honest. Julie must be spitting the salt at me. I don't know what she's doing here. It's so infuriating to see and heartbreaking to see someone we know and loves go into this space that we know is not where they wanted to go and then see the cascade happen when it didn't need to. The other day, everyone at Zupas was probably like, “Whoa. These two broads are crazy.” We are very animated. Julie: We weren't very quiet. Meagan: We're not quiet people first of all and we are animated. I feel like in the past, Julie has been a little bit toned down with her bluntness. She'll be blunt but I'm over the top and she's like, “Oh my gosh, Meagan stop.”Julie: Now I'm just like, “Heck yeah, girl.” Meagan: So us together, we're at Zupas saying these things. One of my questions is, and I wish I had the power, knowledge, and time to produce this huge study because I really want to know what happens if we do nothing. What happens? What happens? Julie started adding to that. Do you want to talk about what you added to that?Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Do you remember? Julie: Yes. Okay, sorry. My mind is going on 17 different paths right now like it usually does. I think if you really, really, really want to get a good perspective about birth, really sit down and talk to a doula. One that you haven't hired because I know when my clients hire me, they hire me for my knowledge and my experiences and to support them. I'm not going to say my full, unbiased opinion to a client because I don't want them to feel like I'm not supportive of them. I am supportive of them. Meagan: Or jading them. We don't want to jade. Julie: I don't want them to get doubts about their birth plan going into it because everybody else is planting doubts so I don't want doubts to come from the doula. But really, sit down and talk to a birth worker because I'll tell you what. I see way smoother births at home. I see way less need for induction at home. I see more love and support in the birth space at home or a birth center. I see more mother-led pushing, way more mother-led pushing at home. I never ever see anyone birth on their back at home ever. I see more partner involvement. I see kids involved. I see whoever you want at your birth involvement. I see mothers who are satisfied with their birth experiences at home. I see babies healthier and more skin-to-skin time and happier families and happier outcomes at home hands down. Yes. Are there a few here and there where it is hard and they need more help or there is a hospital transfer every now and then? Sure, but I guarantee that you are more likely to have problems and your baby is more likely to have problems in a hospital because it is set up to control things and it's not set up to trust the mother-baby unit, to trust the parent-baby unit, the birthing person, whatever pronouns you choose to use, insert them here. It's not set up like that. It's not your provider's fault. It's not your nurse's fault. It's not anybody's fault. It's the system and the way that it's integrated and taught to these health providers that birth has to look xyz and has to be done by xyz. The baby should be this size. The mother's xyz has to look like this. It is all set up to facilitate a system that does not trust the parent-baby unit. It does not trust it. At home, it is very well-trusted. It just is. It just is. I don't want to sugarcoat it. This is maybe where my saltiness comes in but you are way more likely to have that birth experience at home. Yes, it can be done safely. Yes, there are still providers at home that will keep an eye on you and transfer you as soon as you might need any medical assistance because it does save lives. It has. We've seen it. We know it, but most of the time, you are— yeah. I'm just going to pause that here for a second and go into where you were trying to lead me here, Meagan. Meagan: You're just fine. Julie: Sorry. I just have so many opinions clearly. Meagan: It's passion, Julie. It's passion. You are passionate because you are seeing things. I am too. I'm seeing things that are unnecessary. They are unnecessary. We will circle back to where I was going, but we will start where you were at. There are so many unnecessary things that are happening in the system that is so frustrating as a birth worker to see because we also have seen the other side. We have seen. Yes, Julie and I personally have experienced the other side. She was at home. I was at a birth center. We have seen it and experience it. The passion that is coming to you through this episode is because we believe. We know as we've experienced it ourselves as people who have given birth in a system that is “off” the straight and narrow path as a lot of people will say. When people were hearing that I was going to VBAC after two Cesareans out of the hospital because I kept it quiet from most people. But you know what happened when it happened online. People were attacking me, “How dare you?”Julie: People are going to throw salt at us now for this episode. Message me on Instagram @juliefrancombirth. I will engage with you. Meagan: But no. This is passion coming from you. This is your passion in saying, “I have seen other things. I've seen other opportunities.” Julie: I've seen the other side. Meagan: We know. We know, women of strength. We know that it is not always suitable, comfortable, or appropriate for you to birth outside of the hospital. We know that. We do. We definitely just have seen things outside of the hospital that are incredible. Julie: Way better. They're way better. They are. Hold on. Let me interject here for just a second. People might say, “Oh, well you've only been to a hundred births. Providers do a hundred births a week in a hospital.” Not a hundred births a week. That would be a lot. But significantly more. I am not going to argue that at all. I've only been a doula for 8 years, 100 births. That's 10-12 a year besides having babies in between then as well. Last year, I did almost 30 which was super great. But here's the thing. When you're in a hospital, you're only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing, I don't even know statistics for this, maybe 90-95% of people have an epidural in a hospital? I don't know. Maybe 70%? I don't know. I should probably rescind that number. But a lot. And if you don't have an epidural, guess what you have? You're hooked up to an IV. You have continuous fetal monitoring. You are in the very system that we're trying to break away from right now. That is what you see. You don't see hands-off birth. You don't see the normal, physiological process that happens when you do nothing. Yes, at home you have intermittent monitoring every 30 minutes. You do the lab work and stuff like that. The routine tests and everything like that is done at home prenatally and during the birth, but what happens? You don't get to witness that if you work in a hospital in the labor and delivery unit. You don't get to see that. Meagan: Just a quick search by the way, it's 65-80% of people receive epidurals and stuff. Julie: Huh, there you go. Meagan: But yeah. They don't. Their opinions is tainted a little bit. This is why I kind of wish that I had the power to do this study. If there is one and you are listening and you are aware of this study, please let us know. But the study of what happens if we do nothing? We know the ARRIVE trial. We know that if we induce people at 39 weeks, we sort of know what happens. Julie; Do we induce them at 39 or do we induce them at 40 and 5? Meagan: This is the thing. Really, this hasn't really been done for a long time. We know that ACOG says 42 weeks is the cutoff. We've got an increased risk of things like stillbirth and things like that. But okay, so at 42 weeks, we assess. But what happens if, at 38, 39, 40, and 41, we do nothing? What happens if we don't strip our membranes? What happens if we don't even perform a cervical exam until 42 weeks? Julie: What happens if we don't talk about induction? We don't even talk about it. Meagan: Yes. Don't talk about induction. So what happens if we do nothing? What does our Cesarean rate do then? I'm really curious. Do we go down? Do we go up? Do we start having more issues? I don't know. Julie: What does maternal and fetal mortality look like? Because right now, it is a disaster. Meagan: Yes. It just makes me wonder. Cesarean Awareness Month is something that is near and dear to our hearts. We want to bring awareness to it. Cesarean is 32.1% right now. Julie: Yeah. It went up. 2020 and 2021 preliminary data, the Cesarean rates went up. Surprise, because of COVID. Meagan: As a birth worker, what do we know that happened during that time? What did we see? I'll tell you what I saw. Induction, induction, induction. Julie: People's support system's being taken away. They wouldn't even allow partners there. Guess what else happened? Everybody put masks on. Who feels secure? Some people had to push their baby out wearing a mask. Birth, being a very instinctual and intuitive process, anything that creates that feeling of unsafety or difference or fear will interrupt that process. It will make it less efficient. So when you were taking away people's partners from the birth room, when you're making everyone wear a mask in the birth space, when you had a positive COVID test, or if you did not want to do a COVID test, people would come in wearing hazmat suits. Meagan: Even the fear of testing positive and then the threat of everybody being taken away including the baby. Julie: Yeah. All of these things interrupt that process and then yes, people with COVID. I can't even imagine what it was like in the healthcare system. I cannot even imagine what it was like to be a healthcare worker during COVID and having to deal with all of that also. But then needing to also predict and schedule births to control the number of patients coming in and out of a hospital created this “need” for induction and for causing things to be a little more predictable for everybody. I can understand that to a degree but also, but it introduces the need for other interventions to get the baby here including a Cesarean. Meagan: Right. We're seeing this stuff happen and it is just so hard because if you've been with us for a really long time, you know. You know what we're for. We're here to educate on birth after Cesarean. We're here to educate you on your options for birth. That doesn't mean you have to have a VBAC either. Right before this call, Julie and I had another call. We were talking about not necessarily advocating for a Cesarean, but we're also not saying you're bad for having a Cesarean, right? We're not pro-Cesarean people. We're not advocating for unnecessary Cesareans, but at the same time, we're not shaming anyone or wanting to make you feel bad for choosing that route.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important to say that. Our intention is not to shame anybody but also there's a certain point where you've got to stop sugarcoating everything. I tell this to my clients too. I'm not going to bounce around the issues with you. I'm going to tell you things. I'm never going to lie to you. I'm never going to say xyz. I'm not going to tell you, “You're wrong for choosing this,” or whatever because I don't think anyone is wrong for choosing this but I feel like it's so easy to get coerced into doing something we normally wouldn't have done. I feel like it's so easy to feel safer in a hospital because that's how we were raised. I feel like some of these things are ingrained so deeply in us that it's hard to break away from them, but I also am not going to pretend that people's choices are conducive to their birth preferences. There are just some things that don't go together. Natural birth in a hospital does not go together very well. It just doesn't. Not natural, but unmedicated, hands-off birth does not happen well in a hospital. It's a lot harder and it's much more of a fight to get that in a hospital versus out of a hospital. Meagan: Yeah. Well and I think too it's important to talk about creating that space and that environment. If it's in the hospital, okay. But let's talk about how to set that up, how to set that space up. We just recently posted about creating a more homey, comfortable environment. We'll make sure to drop all of it if you guys are interested in checking out these awesome things like getting into your own birthing gown. Going to a hospital, taking off your clothing, and Julie you just talked about this and in a second I want you to bring up what you were talking about with me, but naturally, showing up to a new location with new, strange faces. It's maybe a little cold. It's maybe a little foreign. It's maybe a little staged-looking. Everything is folded up on the bed. Then take off your clothing. What does that do to our body and to our mind? It puts us in an uncomfortable feeling.Julie: A little bit of a fight or flight mode. Meagan: We talked about putting on this thing that is open in the back so our butts are showing. So getting into your own gown, into your own soft, cozy, comfortable gown can bring you some comfort even though you are still changing once you're getting there or maybe you go there in that. Maybe you prepare and you get in that before and you go. Or maybe you don't like IVs and the bottom of an IV looks yucky. There are IV covers to take it away and make it feel less hospitalized because you are in a hospital. But Julie, talk about what you were saying earlier. I was like, “Huh. I've actually never thought of that.”Julie: I saw this on Instagram a few days ago. I'd seen it circulating around before. I wish I knew what account it was so I could tell you to go look at it, but I don't remember. Maybe I saved it. I'll have to look it up while I'm talking. But it basically said, “What would happen if we conceived babies in the same manner that we deliver them?” In order to get pregnant, okay. We need to preface this with sometimes how people need interventions to get pregnant and sometimes you have to have IVF or other things in order to have a baby. But for most people, what if in order to conceive a baby, instead of being in the comfort of your own home with your partner, or I guess wherever you decide to conceive in a car or a forest or wherever, a movie theater. Anyways, whatever your choice, not my business. What if instead of that, you first went to a hospital, changed into their gown, got your blood pressure taken, got hooked up to an IV just in case you need to have some kind of medication–Meagan: Have monitors placed on your belly. Julie: Have monitors placed on your belly, have nurses come in and out and tell you that you can't get started until the doctor comes in– Meagan: Asking you lots of questions. Julie: Asking you about your insurance, your cycle, when your last period was, and all of these things. I don't think you're going to make a baby in that situation. You bring your partner and be like, “Okay, partner. Go get changed now.” Your partner gets changed and everybody's watching you. Everybody's watching you. Meagan: You're on the monitor outside. Julie: I mean, when babies are born, everyone's watching. Freaking hands are in the vagina and freaking everything. What happens if we conceived babies that way? How would that work? How would that work? Let's flip this around. Let's flip this around. What happens if we birth our babies in the same manner that we conceived them?We get in our house, movie theater, car, forest, whatever. We go into our home. We turn the lights down. We run a hot bath. We snuggle with our partners. You probably don't want to have your kids or mother-in-law in your space, but what happens if we created that same environment to increase the flow of our natural hormones, to safeguard and protect that process and make it as intimate as it was when we conceived our babies? Meagan: Yeah. It's a big question. Julie: It's way better and I can say that it's way better because I've had my own, but also, I've seen over a hundred almost births and I see the contrast. I see the contrast and it's a beautiful situation when it's allowed to unfold naturally. Every once in a while, I'll get a nice unicorn birth that has a nice, unmedicated, parent-led birth in a hospital but it's very rare. Meagan: I want to talk about that because, with Cesarean Awareness Month, that's what we do during Cesarean Awareness Month. We talk about things. We do see preventable Cesareans and preventable interventions. Talking about advocating for birth after Cesrean and advocating for yourself, here we are. We go into this space, into the hospital, and we are vulnerable. What do we do? We feel vulnerable because I didn't go to school for 4+ years. I didn't study this. I went to the forest and conceived a baby. Julie: Or a movie theater. Meagan: I went in. I have this. I've learned. I've learned, but now I'm in this space and I'm vulnerable. It's bright. Like Julie said, it's this less-ideal space to give birth. We would never conceive there, so why would we give birth there? But if you're in this space, what do you do? What can you do to create a better space? A better environment? We just had a mama. She wasn't a VBAC but her video went viral. Julie: Katelyn!Meagan: Yep, Katelyn. Maybe actually she might not have been– actually, her episode hasn't even aired yet but you guys definitely need to check out the video on our social media because it is so incredible. Chills all the way from head to toe. It went viral because she advocated for herself. She had nurses. Bless their heart, we love nurses. By the way, if you're a nurse, we love nurses. I don't want to say we hate nurses. But she had nurses following their protocol–Julie: Trying to get her on the bed. Getting baby's blood pressure. Meagan: Trying to get blood pressure. Trying to monitor baby. They tried to get her on the bed and tried to give her a cervical exam, because how would it be if she was 4 centimeters and her midwife was called to come? These things are being told to her. She is pushing out a baby as she's being questioned for all of this stuff. She's literally pushing a baby out of her vagina and standing up in this hospital room. That scenario and that story is few and far between because it is hard. It is so hard. You guys, I was a mom in a birthing room the other day at the veterinarian. I had my puppy. We're sitting there and this doctor is like, “We have to do this. We have to do this. We have to do this.” You guys, I'm a doula. I know how to advocate. Do you want to know what happened? This is a real thing. This really happened. Julie: You have a puppy?Meagan: He's like a puppy. He's five but he's like a puppy. My pup. So we're there and he's telling me all of these things we have to do. Not only is he telling me what we are having to do, but he's also doing things to my dog in front of me, then telling the nurse what he's doing and charging me for these things that I did not ask for. I did not consent to them. I left and I literally paused and thought, “Holy blippity bleep, blah blah blah, bleep.” That is what happens in the birth room way too often. Julie: Yep. Meagan: Women of strength, we do not want this to happen to you. Julie has spit her salt all over and it's all over me too. We're feeling it. Julie: Oh, I'm not done. Meagan: We're feeling it. We're feeling it. Don't let these things happen to you. It's okay to stand up for yourself. It is okay to say, “No, thank you.” It is okay to say, “I hear you. I respect you. I feel differently. I don't want to do that.” Or maybe at a later date. Or maybe at a later time. Julie: Or just cancel your prenatal appointments. I'm not advocating for that, but I've had clients be like, “You know what? I know when I go for my 37-week visit that they're going to push for this and this so I canceled. I'm not concerned. Everything's healthy.” Meagan: Yeah, you just don't have to do anything. I think one of the biggest things and one of the biggest places we can start at avoiding these unnecessary Cesareans– Julie: Is by staying home!Meagan: It's by staying home and advocating. You guys, y'all can tell where Julie is. She's feeling it here at home birth. Julie: I just see it. Go ahead. You go then I'll go. Meagan: I'm just saying that it's okay to stay strong. It's okay to stand strong and try your hardest not to let your vulnerability because it's there. You're so vulnerable in the end. You're tired. You're miserable. You're vulnerable. We just want this baby in our arms. We just want this VBAC more than anything. Don't let people break your vulnerability, sneak in there, and take advantage of you because there is no need. Obviously, if there is a medical, true medical reason, we understand that. Right? They happen. Like Julie said earlier, we're grateful. We're grateful.Julie: There's no shame in that. You should have mercy on yourself if you got railroaded either by the system or by an unexpected emergency. Have mercy on yourself. Give yourself grace because it happens. It's not okay that it happens if the system is the cause of that, but it doesn't make you a bad mom. It doesn't make you a bad human. It doesn't make you a bad anything. It's just what happens sometimes. Meagan: Most Cesareans are unplanned because we had no idea what was happening, but a lot of the time these Cesareans are happening because they are sneaking in, these little sneakers. I don't even know what. I was going to call them weasels. They are weaseling their way in and tapping into our vulnerabilities. I was not the vulnerable one with my second C-section. My husband was and my provider saw it. He snatched it and turned him against me. What did I do? I walked down for a second, unnecessary Cesarean. We don't want these things to happen to you. We want to bring awareness and maybe you're like, “Wow. These chicks are coming in strong.” But you guys, we are passionate. We love you. Julie: We want you to have the birth you want. That's why. Nothing hurts me more than loving someone, knowing what they want, and seeing them get railroaded in a hospital setting. We see it a lot. Meagan: That's what we see most of these times. Julie: A lot. Especially more as a birth photographer. As a doula, I was more involved in the prenatal prep. Sometimes I show up to births as a birth photographer and I've never met the people. They fill out my questionnaire. They hired me. I come in and I'm like, “Hey, I'm Julie. You're in labor. It's nice to meet you.” Those are the hardest ones. I'm never going to watch someone suffer. If you're suffering, I'm going to put my camera down and I'm going to help you. But for first-time parents that didn't feel the need to do any type of childbirth education or learn anything about the process, you just sit there and watch them get railroaded by the hospital setting. You're watching trauma unfold and you're just like, “How is this happening?” But you know how it's happening because you've been watching it for years. I'm talking about myself in the third person or second, or whatever person. But here's the thing. It breaks our hearts. We see it all the time. We see it in The VBAC Link Community all of the time. So many times, people are like, “My water broke so I went into the hospital. I'm only 0 centimeters dilated. They started Pitocin. It's at a 10 and I don't know what to do. I'm not dilating and contractions aren't coming. Help me.” This could have been stopped if you knew that it's okay for your water to break without labor starting and to wait at home for 12-24 hours for labor to start on its own and rest, hydrate, and watch for fever or chills or anything like that then go to the hospital. It's a simple thing to learn but people don't think that because they trust their system. They're going to the hospital and getting railroaded. So many times we see that. All of a sudden, you're water has been broken for however many arbitrary hours your hospital decides is important, and then you get a C-section because all of these things happened. If you would have just known that it's okay to stay home, and there is evidence of staying home. We're not just making this up. There is evidence to support this and just takes a little bit of time to learn. But anyways, that's why I'm sounding really salty today is because I see people get railroaded by the system all of the time. All of the time and it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. I can leave birth and not be super affected by it anymore usually, but these birth experiences are yours. They're going to affect you for the rest of your life. We don't only know that. We don't want you to be railroaded by the system. We want you to know and follow your heart and follow your intuition. If your intuition is telling you, “Unmedicated birth, not pushing on your back, not getting induced, not wanting cervical checks,” then you probably want to birth at home because as soon as you walk out of the door when you are in labor to go to the hospital, your chances of having that birth go down a lot.Meagan: Yeah. I mean, studies show that people are much more likely to have interventions in labor and birth as soon as they are admitted in labor, especially in early labor. If we rush to the hospital, but in your mind, you're like, “I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be induced. I don't want interventions,” but the second we start contractions, if we run and go in, our chances of interventions are sky high and the chances of Cesarean are high because we're pushing these things that are leading to Cesareans. Don't shame yourself and offer yourself grace if you've experienced an unexpected, undesired Cesarean. You are not alone. You are not alone. But know that you have options. Sometimes I want to say to open your mind a little bit. Whether you come back to that openness or not, you come back to that original idea or birthing location, open your mind a little bit and learn the stats. See the stats. Hear the stories. Hear what it can be like.I don't want to take away from anyone who has birthed in the hospital and had a beautiful experience because they can happen and they do happen. They do. But yes. There are a lot of other things that can happen in the home or outside of the hospital that may not lead to interventions and things like that because we're at home and we're doing those things. We're doing more of nothing. We're not doing a lot of anything. We're doing nothing. We're watching. We're trusting. We're having faith. It's so important to understand that your body is capable of doing this. I've had some consults lately that broke my heart because people have literally told them they can't. They won't. They shouldn't. Those three words. They can't have a vaginal birth. They will never have a vaginal birth. I was told that. Right here, I was told that I would not get a baby out of my pelvis. Hello, okay. They shouldn't and they can't. Don't believe that. If you are listening to this podcast, whether you be a first-time mom, a second-time mom, a VBAC, a CBAC, a HBAC, breech. Julie: A breech BAC. Meagan: Whatever your history is, whatever you're coming from, know that you are capable. You are capable of making these choices. You are capable of doing this. It is totally possible. Totally possible. Yes, we might sound salty today. We might sound aggressive. Julie: We're passionate. We're seeing women get hurt by the system. Meagan: It's really hard, but sometimes, we have to have these hard, raw conversations. Julie: Direct. Meagan: Direct conversations to say, don't let the system get you. Don't let it get you. Don't let it bite you in the butt. It doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be like that. I hate that it even has a label as “the system”. You guys, this is a system. It's unfortunate that it has come to this. It is unfortunate. I wish that we could all just go back to the farm. Let's have the farm everywhere. Ina May's farm. Let's bring back the farm and just give birth like that. Don't you think, Julie? Wouldn't that be lovely?Julie: That would be beautiful. I think it's a double-edged sword because up until the 1940s, 1950s, maybe a little bit earlier than that, probably the 1920s or 30s, most people gave birth at home. You only went to the hospital if there was an emergency or if you were at higher risk. Meagan: And there were some downfalls about birthing back then too. Julie: Right. That's what I'm getting at because there's a reason why people transfer to the hospital. In the advent of the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, mostly the 70s, all of these new technological advancements and things like that provided ways that we could save lives that otherwise would have been lost. For that, we are incredibly grateful. We are so grateful. Like we talked about a little bit earlier in the hospital, with that, it has evolved into a system that tries to control the birth process so it's a trade-off. I feel like an ideal situation would be where everybody births without intervention unless there are true emergencies. We're not talking about emergencies like, “Oh, I was induced at 39 weeks and my body wasn't progressing past a 4 and it's been 48 hours. My baby's heart rate is starting to go down so now I have to have a Cesarean.” That is a hospital-created, emergent Cesarean. That is a system-created circumstance where a Cesarean became necessary. That happens so much. It happens so much. We have been raised to go to the hospital and have babies. We get induced. My mother-in-law was induced on her due date every single time. She had her babies every time on her due date. She had five kids. Everything went perfectly well. She has no trauma. Who really knows? It's been a while since those things but she speaks very fondly of her births and that's okay. That's good. But now, we are a generation of traumatized women from our birth experiences. You go into a room with four people that have had babies, I guarantee that two of them had a really rough experience. That's another number I'm just making up. You're not going to be able to find any resources for this. Meagan: What do they say? Two out of five people have unexpected Cesareans or something like that. Say at a restaurant and have everybody raise their hand that had a Cesarean. That's the question. Have you ever had a Cesarean? A lot of arms are going to go up. How many of those Cesareans were planned? There are going to be some. Julie: Less than half I would say. Meagan: There are going to be some that stay up, but most of them were unplanned. Julie: I have a cousin that had four Cesareans. The first one was unplanned, the three other ones were scheduled. She says, “It's the best way to have a baby. You go to the hospital, go to sleep” because she would go under general “then you wake up and have a baby.” She loves it. She speaks very fondly of it. That's the way that she likes to birth and that's okay. I don't want to come off as romanticizing home birth because birthing at home is hard. Sometimes your baby is in a wonky position or sometimes your body might be not quite ready. It's going to be a longer and harder process. Sometimes emergencies happen and you have to transfer to the hospital. Things like that happen. I don't want to make it sound like that never happens because it does. I think there are three major home birth studies now that show it's just the mortality rates for mothers and babies are similar in the hospital and at home, so there is not enough difference to say that one is better than the other, but also, at home, guess what is less? Less postpartum hemorrhage. Less chance of the baby needing resuscitation. Less chances of severe tearing. Less chance that baby is going to the NICU at home. It's worth considering. It's worth exploring and my gosh, if you are a 100% hospital birther, I think Meagan touched on this a little bit earlier, we encourage you to check out home birth resources in your area. Just check them out. Just go and talk to a home birth midwife. Ask her what she does in the case of an emergency, what would risk you out of birthing at home, and just talk to them. You don't have to hire them, but talk to them and see what else is available. See if your intuition jives with that. If your partner is on board with a home birth because it's going to freak them out, and you feel like it's something that you want to explore more, it's time to sit down and have a serious talk with that partner. Do not let your partner or your provider take away the chance of having the birth that you want because they feel uncomfortable about it. Meagan: Yeah, that's a hard one. That's a whole other–Julie: I know it is because it's important. You should respect each other's opinions. You should. You should respect each other's opinions. You should respect your partner. You should understand where your partner is coming from. You should take their point of view into consideration. You should be able to come to a compromise, but if your partner is not willing to do that for you, then that's a problem. Meagan: I want to just quickly before we end, plug in some numbers. Look, you guys. Are you so proud of me? Julie, you should be proud of me for talking about numbers. Julie: I am proud of you. Meagan: This is what you usually do. Julie: Before we get into that, I want to say one more thing. I understand that some of the things that we've said are probably going to be pretty emotional for some people. Maybe some people have gotten triggered. Maybe some people just hate us now and they've already unfollowed us on Instagram, who knows? I say us but probably me too. Probably a lot of VBAC Link people follow me on Instagram as well. Let me try and figure out how I'm going to circle back around and say this. If you have been triggered by this episode, I really, really encourage you to lean into that trigger. Don't run away from it. Don't slash The VBAC Link. Don't unfollow us. Don't unsubscribe. Don't trash talk to your midwife buddy about us. I guess you can do all of those things. It's really your choice. But I encourage you to really lean into that trigger because I wish that we were a society of owning our triggers instead of blaming other people for our triggers. Triggers are our own emotional responses caused by some sort of unresolved trauma or issue in our life. If you lean into that trigger and explore it and figure out why it's happening and where it's coming from, you're going to be able to heal emotionally and become a better human. It's going to affect your future pregnancies, your future births, and your future interactions with other people. How would it be to not ever feel triggered like that? It would be really cool. I wish that I was never triggered but I also know that when I get triggered, instead of running away from it, I have learned to really lean into it, explore it, figure it out, and resolve that. I encourage you that if something we said has triggered you, then lean into it. Maybe leaning into it is unfollowing The VBAC Link. Who really knows? But I bet you that there is a deeper issue there. I wish or I hope that you would take some of the things that we have said here and consider them. Maybe lean into that too and explore a little bit more some of the things that we are talking about and why we are feeling this way. I also encourage you to talk to a local doula or a birth photographer and ask about their experiences observing home birth and hospital birth. That's my little parting piece. Meagan: Great, you're right. A quick plug-in before we talk about these numbers, if you are not aware, The VBAC Link has VBAC-certified doulas all over the world. I'm serious, all over the world. So if you are looking for a VBAC Link doula or if you are looking for someone that's really educated and knows their stuff about VBAC, knows how to support you, and also to help find a really solid provider and location and help you determine where is best for you, check out our directory at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Search your area because seriously, these doulas are incredible. Julie and I a long time ago, back in 2018, started–Julie: 2018, 5 years coming up. Oh my gosh, in a couple of more months. Meagan: Yeah, back when we got together and started this company, our goal was to help change the VBAC world. We cannot do this alone as individuals, so we have all of these incredible doulas helping us out there. So if you are looking for a VBAC doula, I have to gloat about them because they are amazing. Julie: Really amazing. Meagan: But let's talk really quickly before you go about success rates. There's a study that has been done. It was published in 2015 but I believe that it was from 2004-2009 which makes me even wonder now after COVID what it would be because home birth and HBAC have skyrocketed since COVID because a lot of people were, just like we were talking about in the beginning, having their people stripped from them, having to wear a mask, having to deal with the fear of losing their baby if they tested positive and all of these things. But this was a while ago. The success rate was examined. It's a lower number like 1050 or something like that but the rate of successful HBACs was 87%. Julie: That is pretty amazing. Do you know what I love? That's higher than APA because APA says that 60-80% of people who attempt a VBAC will be successful. Meagan: Just in general, a VBAC, yes. Julie: That's general. Hospital, home birth, movie theater birth, whatever. 60-80%. But this at home, did you hear that? 87%. Meagan: At home, 87%. Now, I want to talk about transfer rates. They had an average of 18% transfer rate. Julie: That's kind of high. Meagan: It is kind of high but I want to talk about that because a lot of people might think of an 18% transfer rate and they automatically go to Joe Rogan's page and hear, “Oh, what they are saying is so true. All of these terrible things are happening.” You guys, no. Yeah. Did you see it? Julie: No, send me a link.Meagan: There's a video. You'll have to check it out with Joe Rogan and this lady. I don't even want to get into it. It was so annoying. I just rolled my eyes the whole time. Anyway, the majority of these people that were transferred, I want to preface. It was not because there was a crazy emergency. It was most common for failure to progress. Failure to progress we know has a lot of things. We know that sometimes failure to progress can be due to cervical scarring or maybe we've had really long prodromal labor and things like that. There are a whole bunch of different reasons why but failure to progress and they needed to go to the hospital to then benefit from some of the things that the hospital offers like Pitocin or something like that? But still, only 18% which I know sounds high but still, 87% had a successful VBAC at home, so an HBAC. Julie: Okay, so I also want to say two things. First of all, the study might have had certain protocols to follow for a transfer. That might have caused the transfer before it was necessary. I don't know. I haven't seen this study. But also, the second thing is that I heard somewhere, and it might be different with study protocols, but I heard somewhere and I feel like my circumstances support that most hospital transfers are due to maternal exhaustion. They are so tired. They have labored for so long but I don't have a number to back that up. But that's interesting that that study shows that. That's really cool. Meagan: Yeah. There are things. We know that women at home can sometimes lack resources, but you can also talk to your provider if you're birthing at home and talk about, “Hey if I'm not progressing, what kind of things can we do to help progress?” Sometimes that's processing and sometimes that's nipple stimulation. Sometimes that's getting everyone out of a room, turning off the lights, and taking a nap. There are so many things that go into it but it's a pretty small study relatively. But still, wow. It does represent something. It represents something and we can't ignore it. But anyway, we are pro-choice. We are pro everybody making the best choice for them but we do. Julie: We're also pro-not watching the system railroad people. Meagan: I was going to say that we do see so many things that are so avoidable. I've had clients in the past years. One client probably two years ago, she was 38 and 5 I want to say. I'd have to go back and look at my notes and the provider was like, “I don't know. You look big. It looks like this baby is measuring big. It could be anywhere from 8-10 pounds. We should probably induce. I will totally support this VBAC but let's induce.” The cervix wasn't doing much. It just wasn't an ideal spot to be walking in for an induction and they required breaking water. They wouldn't put Pitocin in. When the water was broken, they needed Pitocin after that which is interesting. She got up to a 1 and started Pitocin, had an IUPC placed, an FSC placed, and all of these things. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it was just so hard because you guys, I adore this person. I adore this person but it was so hard to see these things and see the path that it was going down knowing that the end result was likely coming to a repeat Cesarean when that's not what she was wanting. It was so hard texting my doula community, my resource group that we all have as birth workers saying, “You guys, pray. Pray. Pray that this is just one of those miracles because it's one of those situations that we see too often.” It did. It ended in a repeat Cesarean. It was healing. It wasn't an emergency. She did heal from it, but it didn't need to happen. I can't say that for a guarantee. I can't say something wasn't going to happen, but it didn't need to happen that way. So women of strength, here we are. We love you. We know that you are in a hard situation. We've been there. We've been there. Julie's been told by providers in the hospital that she would rupture. I was told that I would rupture. No. You were told that your baby would die. Julie: Me and my baby would die. Meagan: Yes. We were told these really scary things. Do we hate the hospital? No. Do we hate it? No. Do we hate what we see in it? Yes. Julie: Yeah, a lot of time. Meagan: We hate it. We hate what we see. I mean, not always. I can't say that we always hate what we say but so many times we hate seeing things that are just avoidable. So here we are. Know that we're here. We've got our course. We've got the blog. We've got this podcast. We've got our private Facebook community. We have Instagram. We have so many resources filled with evidence-based information. If you are wanting to up your VBAC game and learn the history of VBAC, learn about Cesarean, the history of Cesarean, learn about VBAC, learn how to find the right provider, learn how to tap into where you want to birth, and really tune into that, this course is going to help you walk through that path. Whether or not you choose a Cesarean, you choose a VBAC, you choose an induction, you choose home birth, hospital birth, midwife, OB, unmedicated, medicated, whatever it may be, we are here to support you but it is so important to us that you find that information that you are filled with the evidence-based information ready to take on the birth and have the birth experience. So if you want to learn more about all of these resources, check the show notes. They are all going to be listed. Go to thevbaclink.com and click around you guys. You're going to get lost in there because there is a lot. There is a lot of incredible information. But yeah. Julie, anything you want to add before we let the listeners go? Julie: I do. I do have something we want to add. Listen. Me and Meagan want to do a birth together, a VBAC. Maybe at home, maybe at a hospital but if you are in Utah, Salt Lake or Utah County, Weber, Davis, Tooele, Park City, and any of those areas, reach out because we have a special bundle discount that we will give to you if you hire Meagan as your doula and me as your birth photographer. Meagan: Yes. We've done a birth together as doulas switching up. We've never done a birth as a birth photographer and a doula. Julie really wants us to work together. Julie: I do. We will be a package deal. We will take some money off of our services for you so that we can have that experience and then you get both of us at your birth which is a total win. Meagan: That would be really fun. It would be really, really fun. Okay, listeners, we love you. We love you so much. Happy Cesarean Awareness Month. It's April. We're going to be posting those stats and all of the things this month so stay tuned. If you have not followed us on Instagram or Facebook, check us out at @thevbaclink. You can find us anywhere and we are so grateful that you are here. Hopefully, after today's episode, you're not unfollowing us on all of this. We love you. We just have to say that. Julie: And you can follow me @juliefrancombirth.Meagan: Yes. You can follow Julie at @juliefrancombirth.Julie: Bye! ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Sit on this toilet in front of everyone while we hook you up to monitors & ask you questions & pee right now otherwise we have to operate On this weeks episode I chat about how peeing like that is impossible yet we are expected to birth in this manner. I encourage you all to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth & learn about the sphincter law. But first, if you're in the philadelphia tri state area-come out to the 3rd annual Recharge Beauty & Wellness 4/20 Happy Hour at Brick N Kulture in Woodbury, New Jersey from 5pm-8pm. It's my first time vending at an event & I'm super excited! There will be many vendors, live music, live art, food & wine & MORE! Click the link for tickets! See you there! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/3rd-annual-recharge-420-happy-hour-wa-twist-tickets-597395695607?aff=ebdssbdestsearch Ina May Gaskin's Book: https://amzn.to/3ZkBTOg The Performance video (sex treated as birth): https://youtu.be/lZG0T7xHy6A Kathryn's Instagram: https://instagram.com/thepuredoula?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= The Pure Doula Podcast Instagram: https://instagram.com/thepuredoulapodcast?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= The Pure Doula Shop Instagram: https://instagram.com/thepuredoulashop?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

What are some of the most important things to do in pregnancy as you prepare for baby? Well, in this episode we discuss our top 3 focuses within birth preparation and what we really like to emphasize with our mama's - fuel, movement and breath work. We talk about some of our favorite resources and ways to implement these practices today! We hope this episode is full of helpful information that you can apply whether you are in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd trimester. So grab a snack and let's get to it! Books mentioned: Expecting Better, Emily Oster: https://www.amazon.com/Expecting-Better-Conventional-Pregnancy-Wrong/dp/0143125702/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2KEHS4YHJT2CG&keywords=expecting+better+emily+oster&qid=1679031974&sprefix=expecting+better%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-1 Mama Natural, Genevieve Howland https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Week-Week-Pregnancy-Childbirth/dp/150114667X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?creativeASIN=150114667X&imprToken=I06TqM20XZjjZgecIvovaA&slotNum=11&ie=UTF8&qid=1485208140&sr=8-2&keywords=mama+natural+book&linkCode=w61&tag=mamanatural-20&linkId=cbbd1c7aaa034c73736ff05f6dc873ce Nine golden months, Heng Ou: https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Golden-Months-Mother-Be/dp/1419751484/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3MCMDL2ZAD7F2&keywords=9+golden+months&qid=1679032078&sprefix=9+golden+months%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1 Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, Ina May Gaskin: https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FVP1AWTEEFFA&keywords=ina+may+guide+to+childbirth&qid=1679032252&sprefix=ina+ma%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-1 Instagram Accounts: Painfreebirth: https://www.instagram.com/painfreebirth/ Built to birth: https://www.instagram.com/builttobirth/ Love of a little one: https://www.instagram.com/loveofalittleone/ lalactation: https://www.instagram.com/lalactation/ Wholistic Postpartum : https://www.instagram.com/wholisticpostpartum/ Affirmations: Built to birth: https://www.builttobirth.com/meditate Mama natural: https://shop.mamanatural.com/products/pregnancy-affirmation-cards

Welcome to the Mindset Mama podcast. I'm your no-BS, brutally honest mom friend who empowers you to become the most optimal version of yourself WHILE navigating motherhood. I am here to give you the swift kick in the butt that you need to prioritize filling your cup so you can be a happier, more present mother. It's time to take radical responsibility for your life. Say goodbye to your excuses, open your mind and let's get after it. _________ Kicking off season 2 with my birth stories! I share about my red pill moments when it comes to natural, physiological birth and what each of my experiences have taught me. I went from a fear-based hospital induction but vaginal pain-med free birth to an intense, natural, redemptive water birth in a birth center with my second child. I still have lots to learn but I am happy to share the knowledge and experienced I've gained with you! Mentioned in this episode: Ina May's Guide to Natural Childbirth The Business of Being Born Documentary Follow me on IG: @mindsetmamapodcast Email: hello@kayla-crawford.com Submit an inquiry to be a guest: https://linktr.ee/kaylacrawford

Breastfeeding is the next natural step after birthing a baby - but guess what, you AND your baby still have to learn how to do it. In this episode, we discuss several principles to successful breastfeeding, and how to prepare for the process during your pregnancy. Having a newborn comes with many steep learning curves, and this is certainly one of them - but having education and resources to back your inherent instincts and motivation to breastfeed your baby can make or break the experience. We have to remember that we used to get this info as little girls surrounded by community - but today, most new mothers have never even seen a baby latch. From tongue ties to letdowns, building your supply, positioning, and mastitis - let us help guide and pump you up for this special relationship, so there's no surprises - let's go!   DOCTOR'S WEBSITES Dr. Morgan's website: www.milkmedicine.com Dr. Morgan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/morganmacdermott/ Dr. Leah's website: www.womanhoodwellness.com  Dr. Leah's IG: https://www.instagram.com/drleahgordon/    RESOURCES   Breastfeeding videos by Jack Newman's International Breastfeeding Centre: https://ibconline.ca/breastfeeding-videos-english/ Book: The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding by the Le Leche League - click here Haakaa Silicone Breast Pump: https://haakaausa.com/products/haakaa-silicone-breast-pump-with-suction-base-5-oz-1pk-1 Ina May's Guide to Breastfeeding by Ina May Gaskin - click here  Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth by Ina May Gaskin - click here  Kelly Mom Breastfeeding website: kellymom.com Dr. Morgan MacDermott's Mastitis Manual https://milkmedicine.company.site/

Join us today as Kaitie interviews Brittany! Brittany, first time mom, shares how she guarded her peace through the trials of miscarriage and unexpectedly being diagnosed with preeclampsia. This is a story of how to stand on God's Word and receive His peace beyond one's understanding! You can connect with Brittany through social media on: -Instagram - @brittanytprice -Supernatural Childbirth Mamas' Facebook Group Resources Brittany talked about on the show: - Teachings by Nerida Walker on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@NeridaWalker/videos)and her book, God's Plan for Pregnancy (https://neridawalker.cartloom.com/storefront/category/ebooks) - Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize (https://www.jackiemize.com) - The Bradley Method (https://www.bradleybirth.com) - Kierra Blaser's A Heavenly Welcome on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@AHeavenlyWelcome )and her podcast, Birth in God's Presence (https://aheavenlywelcome.com/category/podcast/) - Ina May's Guide to Childbirth by Ina May Gaskin (https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1677085931&refinements=p_27%3AIna+May+Gaskin&s=books&sr=1-1) - Pain Free Birth with Karen Welton (https://painfreebirth.com) - The Happy Homebirth Podcast (https://www.myhappyhomebirth.com) We pray you are encouraged by Brittany's story and encounter God in your pregnancies and births!

Why home birth? For today's DIAH Mama Holly Leever, her answer was: “I knew I would be more comfortable at home and would avoid a lot of unnecessary interventions.” This episode is part of a new format and style we will be featuring on the podcast every so often - a non-interview audio submission from listeners sharing their birth stories with us. We're excited to have this as another way to bring you more birth stories, for when we're at capacity with our interview schedule. And it's great for those who would prefer to share in this way.  Some of the topics mentioned in Holly's story: Practicing FAM Finding out she was pregnant Struggling with eating disorder before becoming pregnant Helpful resources during pregnancy A sweet and simple birth Links From The Episode: Holly's Website: Rosebudwellness.com Love Your Labor: https://brownrootslove.com/ Ina May's Spiritual Midwifery: https://amzn.to/3jVLfkI Steamy Chick: www.steamychick.com Womb Wisdom Podcast episode with Sarah: https://www.rosebudwellness.com/podcasts/womb-wisdom/episodes/2147827042 Offers From Our Awesome Partners: Needed: https://bit.ly/2DuMBxP - use code DIAH23 to get 20% off your order or DIAH100 for $100 off a Complete Plan More From Doing It At Home: Share your birth story with us: https://bit.ly/3jOjCKl Doing It At Home book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3vJcPmU DIAH Website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doingitathome/ DIAH YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pzuzQC DIAH Merch: www.diahpodcast.com/merch Give Back to DIAH: https://bit.ly/3qgm4r9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ina May Gaskin said in her book Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, "Even if it has not been your habit throughout your life so far, I recommend that you learn to think positively about your body."  The devil's lies have convinced so many women that they are incapable of doing the very thing God designed them to do.  Inside today's episode, we look at 4 ways that you can STOP that negativity and self-doubt and START refocusing on what is possible when we put our faith and trust in GOD!  We can give birth!  We can have healthy pregnancies and grow healthy babies!  We can do all the things He designed us to do if only we will follow Him and His will!   Need help finding a provider?  Want to be added to my email list? Got other questions? Email lori@yourbirthgodsway.com   Join our new community! --> https://www.facebook.com/groups/yourbirthgodsway   DISCLAIMER:  Remember that though I am a midwife, I am not YOUR midwife.  I strive to provide the most accurate information I can, but you must do your research and consult other reputable sources, including your provider, to make the best decision for your own care.  I do not know the specific details about your situation and thus I am not responsible for the outcomes of your decisions.

Would you try again for a home birth if it didn't happen the first time? Today's guest, Britt Anderson, walks us through 3 very different birth experiences. From a hospital transfer for cesarean, to another hospital transfer with VBAC to a home birth. Britt also shares how her history as a nurse, doula and her expertise in women's health and wellness fuels her passion for preconception care.  Things we talk about in this episode: Hospital transfer from home Cesarean birth VBAC Links From The Episode: Britt's website: www.awombinbloom.com Britt's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/britteanderson/ Ina May's Guide to Childbirth: https://amzn.to/3TL2Zfk The Business of Being Born: https://www.thebusinessof.life/   Offers From Our Awesome Partners: Needed: https://bit.ly/2DuMBxP - use code DIAH to get 20% off your order or DIAH100 for $100 off a Complete Plan   More From Doing It At Home: Doing It At Home book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3vJcPmU DIAH Website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doingitathome/ DIAH YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pzuzQC DIAH Merch: www.diahpodcast.com/merch Give Back to DIAH: https://bit.ly/3qgm4r9

“We named her Frankie because she was frank breech.”Guess what, Women of Strength? For the month of December, our gift to you is TWO weekly episodes! We are honored to kick off our Holiday Special episodes with our amazingly impressive friend, Olga. Olga shares her birth stories of an unplanned Cesarean, a frank breech VBAC, then ending full circle with an unmedicated VBAC. She has so much wisdom to share and we are here for all of it. She experienced so much personal growth and transformation with each birth.Topics include:AROM checklistHip DysplasiaProtecting your mental space before birthFreezing colostrum during pregnancySibling doulasHappy Holidays, TVL Community!Additional linksBebo Mia's WebinarThe VBAC Link Doula Training CourseInformed Pregnancy Podcast VBAC Breech EpisodeHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Hello, hello you guys. This is our very first-ever holiday edition. I decided that in the month of December, we are going to put out two episodes a week. I am so excited today to bring you the first one. This is a good friend of mine. Her name is Olga. You guys, she is amazing. She is a powerhouse mom. That is for sure. She graduated from Harvard. She's been featured in Forbes magazine with 30 under 30, 40 under 40, Cranes New York. She has run an insanely successful business. She raises three kids. She is an amazing wife, an amazing person, so amazing. I'm so honored to have her here with us today. She has a story to share with you that we actually haven't heard for a long time. It's going to be a breech VBAC. Review of the WeekMeagan: I'm so excited to hear her story, but of course, we have a review of the week so before we do that, I'm going to review our course actually. This is from Erin Stanton. She says, “I absolutely love this doula training course. I feel far more prepared on the unique needs of the family planning of VBAC birth. Thank you so much for creating this resource for birth professionals and families.” Thank you, Erin. If you guys did not know, we have a course for both preparing parents that are wanting to know their options for birth after Cesarean and then we offer an education course for doulas and birth workers who want to learn more about the unique needs of a VBAC parent and a VBAC family. Unfortunately, we talk about this all of the time that we are just people going in to have babies just like everybody else, but because we have that previous Cesarean, unfortunately, we have this unique part where we are viewed a little bit differently in most of the medical world. So if you are wanting to dive in and learn more about your options for birth after Cesarean or how to support your birthing clients, definitely check out our website at thevbaclink.com.Olga's StoryOlga: I'm actually the person who took a class, too. Meagan: Yes, you did. Olga: I loved the course and actually, I did it with my husband which was really helpful for him to feel more comfortable about the birth. I definitely, highly recommend it. I know you didn't ask my opinion, but I do highly recommend the course. Meagan: I love your opinion. It is so important. My husband, personally, didn't want to do any of the birthing courses with me and wasn't super interested in it. He just didn't understand it way back when. Now, he's like, “Oh, yeah. I totally get it.” But it's so awesome to do with your significant other or your birthing partner because VBAC definitely has some things and some scare tactics, and just some interesting things that come along the way. If your partner can be as educated as you are, you're not feeling left like you have to defend your reason why you do or don't want to do something, so it's so great for you guys to be in a collaborative space. You guys know, you're educated equally, and then you can support each other because they need support too. Olga: Totally. Your course is awesome because it was self-paced, so we actually broke it down into 30 minutes. We did it whenever our toddler was sleeping. We did it on Saturdays together and I think it brought us together and got him comfortable with the idea of a VBAC because it has so many helpful statistics about how safe it is. I think as you said, there are so many scare tactics, but when you see data on paper in front of you, it just helps lose that fear, so I highly recommend it. I'm sorry to jump in. Meagan: No, I love it. I love it. Why don't we just segue right into your amazing birth journeys? I feel like in ways, I have in each birth– and it's probably with everyone really. We all each have unique birth stories, but I feel like all of your birth stories have even more unique spins. You have very different things and each one of them is even more amazing. So let's turn the time over to you and share your stories. Olga: Thank you. I am just so privileged to be here because I listened to every single podcast episode when I was preparing for my VBAC. I feel like I know you so well, so it's just such an honor. So thank you so much for having me. To jump right in and start the story where it really started, I had a miscarriage before my first birth. I just think that people who have gone through miscarriages– it's just such a difficult situation and it's such a difficult process. I do think that I was definitely depressed after and I think having a miscarriage before you have kids is so difficult too because you are questioning, “Can my body even have a baby?” and all sorts of things. When I got pregnant with my first baby girl who made me a mommy, who I wouldn't change anything for the world, I really was scared. We did not take a single course because when I got pregnant with my miscarriage baby, I bought all of the books and I started planning in my mind. I think as I got pregnant, I was just scared to jinx it. I think I really didn't even admit it to myself that I was pregnant or get attached to the baby– Meagan: Yeah, that is very common. Olga: –until I was probably 24 weeks. I remember reading, it was like, “Hit 24 weeks and the baby's survival rate was 90%.” I really took a deep breath. I felt like at that point, I was like, “Oh my god. I am having a baby.” Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Olga: And so I think a lot of things I did differently with preparing for my VBAC were the complete opposite from my first birth. I trusted the provider right away. I sort of fell into this– I was living in New York City. I had lived in New York City for 15 years at the time. My OB had a practice on the floor above her that was delivering babies. She was like, “Okay, that's where you go.” It turned out that the practice was pretty desirable. I didn't know the questions to ask and I just sort of, as you said early on, trusted that we all deliver babies and I would know what to do when it all happened. Meagan: Right. Olga: We looked at having a doula and we thought it was this boho thing to do. We were two professionals in New York and we were like, “Whatever.” We knew the doctors. We were delivering at NYU, and so it was this sort of fear of losing the baby, not believing that we were pregnant, and then trusting the system, trusting that they have the best interests in mind and that everything will be done. And then the other thing I think is that there is so much pressure around you that it's 40 weeks, everybody is like, “It's 9 months.” I never even knew that people go past their due date ever. I am a fairly educated person, but I've never heard anything. To be fair, I did not take any courses or anything with my first because I was just so scared of the jinxing of having a baby. I literally was– here we are, about to go into the birth. At 40 weeks, I was just like, “Oh my god. The baby is not here.” My husband has two sisters and they all delivered pretty early. They were like, “Be prepared.” So at 32 weeks, I wrote a transition birth plan in my office. Everybody was ready and then here we are two months later and still no baby. The other thing is that my daughter is named after my grandma who is the closest person on earth to me. She is no longer with us. She was born on January 1st and my due date, I think, was January 4th and so I was sure I would be birthing on January 1st. I think I mentally prepared myself so when that didn't happen and the due date came and there was no baby, I was like, “What is going on?” I gained quite a lot of weight because I felt like it was a free pass to eat whatever I wanted to. Meagan: Oh man, right here. That's what happened to me too. Olga: That was you? Yeah. Also, I was in New York City. They were so scared of me falling on ice that they wouldn't let me work out. I also had some sort of previous situations where I was sort of put on no working out starting in the second trimester and no sex. I mean, it was nothing scary. I had two little procedures. I had precancer cells early on. They cut those out, so they were worried that the cervix wouldn't hold the baby. They were like, “Don't work out. Don't do this.” I'm not naturally working out because I'm not walking. It's winter in New York City. I'm going and not doing anything, so I was gaining weight and eating whatever I wanted. I also did not know anything about baby positioning, so I was lying in the corner of my couch every night, basically encouraging my baby to be OP which we will talk about as I prepared for my second birth. I got sciatica or whatever it's called. Meagan: Sciatica? Uh-huh. Olga: Sciatica, yeah. Meagan: Which is miserable.Olga: Well, so it was on my due date. I was actually at a museum with my husband and my mom. We were so amateur that we flew my mom in at 39 weeks to help us and here we are, no baby and we were like, “What are we doing?” Both of us were working crazy hours. I was in the office the day before I delivered. There was no mental preparation. It was sort of like this was happening to me and I wasn't in control of the process whatsoever. I was letting all of these things happen to me. The doctor was like, “Oh, you should go take a bath,” so I went in to go and take a bath. When I was in the bath, there was some sort of liquid that came out. As pregnant women know, there's just stuff that happens to our bodies, so I didn't think anything of it except, later on, I called them and I was like, The leg didn't get better.” I couldn't walk, basically, during the last few days of my pregnancy. I was like, “The leg didn't get better, but my underwear just keeps getting wet.” She's like, “Well, your water probably broke, so you have to come to the hospital within 12 hours.” The 12 hours was supposed to be 3:00 a.m. I was like, to my husband, “Let's just leave more.” So at 6:00 a.m., we go to the hospital. They test my underwear and they were like, “Oh yeah, your water did break.” They admitted me to the hospital and there were no contractions, nothing. The woman, the doctor comes in. She checks my water levels through an ultrasound and she's like, “Oh no. There's so much water. Your water didn't break. But now you're here and you're admitted, so you're going to stay and we will induce you.” To be fair, they did give me an option of whether to be induced or not, but when you are uneducated, everything being positioned to you is very much like, “This is what you do next,” as opposed to, “Here are the risks. Here are the benefits.” Because I was in so much pain, I couldn't really walk, and I was ready. I felt so ready. And also, mentally, my mother-in-law was there, and we were ready to send my mom back. I felt so much pressure on me to go and deliver this baby as opposed to waiting for this natural moment of her being ready. Also, they were so worried about infection because they did think the water was breaking first and then they kind of put this fear in me. Long story short, they started me on Pitocin. I think they did the Foley bulb. That fell out. At 4 centimeters, I get an epidural. Again, everything is positioned like, “This is what you do.” I was also very natural during pregnancy. I didn't drink coffee. I just was so thoughtful about it. At that point, I'm like, “Give me all of the drugs.” I was so scared of this birth. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Olga: We'll talk later about how my attitude shifted during this experience. There, I was like, “Give me all of the drugs.” They put an epidural in me. I'm rotating. They were like, “Oh, we'll see you in the morning.” I did dilate from 6 to 10 centimeters in an hour. Meagan: Which is amazing. Olga: But I'm telling the nurse, I'm like, “I have to go poop,” or “I have to push.” She's like, “No. That's not possible.” So I did have to advocate for myself a little for them to check me. They checked me and they were like, “Oh my god. Yes, that's true.” So they check me. I'm 10 centimeters and they were like, “Here we go. Time to push.” I pushed for three and a half hours. The baby was OP. They did break my water at 4 centimeters which is probably why I dilated so fast. Nobody checked the baby's positioning. She was really, really, really high up, OP, and I know all of this thanks to the course that I did with you because, after the course, I did request my operating notes. Those are all of the things that I was able to learn in those operating notes. I remember making that call was so scary, but after three and a half hours, I was okay. My epidural didn't work. It stopped working and I was feeling all of the pain. I will say that the Pitocin contractions are so brutal. There's no break for a woman. Again, now that I've experienced natural labor, it's just so different. Meagan: It's very different, yeah. Olga: Very different.Meagan: They are in a whole different ballpark with Pitocin versus natural Pitocin. Olga: Absolutely. Exactly. There were three times in my labor that I truly thought I was going to die actually. I had this out-of-body experience where I wanted to move. My body was screaming, “Move!” and they wouldn't let me because I had an epidural and I was lying down. My body took over and I got on my knees and my fours. Sadly, that was already three hours into pushing, but I was still willing to push more. I was so committed and the doctor's position was, “No.” I did ask her for 30 minutes more. The baby would come down as I was pushing and then she would come back up because she was stuck. There was no lubricant. They broke my water. Again, now knowing everything, I'm so glad for whoever is listening to this episode. Everything I've learned and educated myself with was through the course and listening to the podcasts. But here I am with a really traumatic birth in the sense that they rolled me in after three and a half hours of pushing and 24 hours of labor. I'm exhausted. I developed a fever by that point. They get the baby out and I'm shaking. I literally want to cry just flashing back to that experience. Yeah. Lying down there, arms trapped and shaking profusely. The baby comes out. Of course, you are happy to see the baby. Who isn't? They touched cheek to cheek. They didn't do skin-to-skin or anything like that. The anesthesiologist is like, “Do you want me to knock you down?” And I said, “Yes.” Meagan: Because you were shaking so badly? Olga: I was shaking so badly. I remember asking my husband to tell me why he loves me and how we met. He was just sitting there next to me telling me the story of how we met and why he fell in love with me because I just wanted to make it all worth it. I don't know what was going on through that, but his telling me that story is what started to calm me down. But I wanted to get knocked down. I was shaking. I was cold. The experience is not what I later loved about delivering vaginally. I also felt like those things were done to me as opposed to my body birthing my child. I remember a few days after, I didn't even see my baby. They took her to NICU because I had a fever. They put her on antibiotics. She also had jaundice. Everybody was texting us, “Oh, did you have the baby? What's the baby's name?” It honestly didn't feel like I had the baby. You still have the tummy. You're just lying there and in New York, I really hope nobody delivers in the kind of inhumane conditions. You're next to other people who maybe have their baby. You're sharing a room. Meagan: That's crazy. Olga: It's really crazy. I just felt like I didn't know if I delivered the baby. I didn't know any of those things. It was not a pleasant experience. My girlfriends were asking me after. They were like, “Oh, are you going to have more kids?” At that point, I was like, “No. I don't think I'm going to have more kids.” It felt like my body failed me which is unfortunate to say, but in reality, I failed my body in part too because I wasn't prepared to advocate for myself. That was a really traumatic experience for Ryan, my husband, and really traumatic for me. Part of it was not being educated, not knowing a lot, and letting somebody else decide what is right for me. But I did have a beautiful baby girl.Meagan: And her name is Lara? Olga: Her name is Lara. She is named after my grandma. She was born on January 7th and she made me a mommy and I will forever be grateful to her for that. When she was one, I got pregnant with my little Frankie. She was basically a COVID baby. I decided that I was going to step down. I had a really intense job. As I said, I worked right before I delivered my baby. I went back to work four days after. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Olga: Yeah. It definitely took me– literally on the day of the C-section, I came home and I had a call. It was investors and things like that. A lot of it was self-imposed. I think it did take me a minute to figure out that I'm a parent and that things have changed. I'm a very driven person as many people are. Yeah. I just felt a little bit disconnected at the moment from my body and the birth realizing all of that stuff. I went back to work. I had the most amazing nanny who helped me and my mom was there, so I felt very supported, but my C-section recovery was brutal. I had to sleep sitting up. I couldn't lie down. I don't know now why that was. I was on all of these drugs. I just was in so much pain. Again, I don't wish C-section on anybody. I do think it saves lives and I think there is a place for it, absolutely. I think it is the most amazing invention, but I don't think it should be as widely used as it is today by just anybody when you get bored. I later learned that my doctor was about to change shifts and she just was ready for me to get this going. I love when you guys talk about failure to progress as failure to wait. I mean, obviously, mine wasn't about failure to progress but it was about partially about failure to wait and also not letting my body move around and get this baby in the position that my body needed it to be in. Fast forward, here I was. I decided that I was going to take a year off. I worked really crazy with no vacations for many years and then I decided to take a year off and travel. Of course, you plan and then life happens. COVID happens. I get pregnant and I was going to travel with my one little girl, but I definitely wanted my kids to be close in age. We got pregnant and we found out it was a little girl. COVID pregnancy was definitely a challenge and I think you covered it. Husbands couldn't go there. You don't have support. You don't have as much self-care. I think it's different today, but we were really early in COVID. At the time, I lived in New York City and it was very, very scary to be there. We moved literally in four days. My girlfriend who lived in L.A. was like, “Stay in my house. We are going up to San Francisco because my parents need to help with childcare,” so we moved in four days. We told to movers just to send it to L.A. and that we were going to find an apartment. It was an incredible decision for us because, in COVID, I was able to be active. The weather was nice. My toddler could run around and explore. It was a really wonderful decision. I ended up working through COVID because the situation was so volatile that my board asked me to stay. I did end up stepping down a month before my baby was born. But even though I was working, my husband always laughs. I was a Type A student. I took VBAC as something I was really going to learn a lot about and feel really prepared. I took the class with you. I got a doula who also was a VBAC mama. I know you guys have a directory of VBAC-trained doulas and I think that is so, so important. My doula was incredible. I started preparing mentally and physically. I read a lot about Spinning Babies and really getting baby into the optimal position. I walked for 3 miles. I ran for as long as I could and then I walked for 3 miles at the end. There was a ritual that my husband and I did. We would put our toddler to bed and then we would walk around our house. It was our moment for each other, but also to bring us together and talk about the VBAC, and talk about us preparing. Those months preparing for the VBAC were what I should have done probably with my first, but you live and you learn. I'm so grateful that I've had all of these experiences. I stayed active. I learned a lot. I listened to the podcast. I took the course. Every time I would go to the chiropractor or my doctor, I would just listen to an episode. One piece of advice that I have, and I know we haven't talked about giving advice to people, but I would save my favorite episodes so at the end, during my last month, I only stayed in positive spaces. I only listened to the episodes that I saved. Meagan: I love that. Olga: There was an episode that you guys had where a woman from Atlanta also had a breech birth because, at that time, I already knew that I was having breech. She had it out of Atlanta. She is a wife of a football guy maybe. Meagan: Uh-huh, yep. Olga: I don't remember her name, but that episode, I probably listened to 10-20 times in that last month just to channel that positivity. With my third baby which I will talk about in a second, I also had a few episodes that were relevant to me and I just felt like relistening to them all of the time was a really helpful thing for me at least. That's my advice is to save your favorites so that you can easily channel them and listen to them. Meagan: I love that. Olga: I saved for my husband the episodes I wanted him to hear. Very curated. I would be like, “Listen to this girl. She pushed for a long time too,” or whatever so that he was comfortable, but that he also knew what to do and how to get comfortable. By the end of August, my baby was born at the end of September, but by the end of August, I stepped down from my job. Again, I feel very privileged that I was able to do that. I know a lot of people have to work until the last moment. But even if you have to work until the last moment, I think carving out space for yourself and your baby and connecting with them is so, so valuable. Whether it's when your toddler is napping or when your husband comes home, even if it's that 3-mile walk around the neighborhood, I just think that we expect our bodies and ourselves to just go with this birth. No. It's a big thing in our lives. Let's give it the attention that it deserves. I really eliminated anything. That last month was just so spiritual for me and really, surrender is the word that I wrote above my bed. Anytime I would have things that you guys would say or I learned, I would write in big letters and put these flashcards next to my bed so that I would remind myself. I think I still have it. Meagan: I love that. Olga: And by the way, “Eat before you go to the hospital” was my big one. Meagan: Yes. Olga: A couple of things– I know some people consider home birth but for me, the hospital was a no-brainer. Actually, even though I had this traumatic birth, luckily, I was now in a different city, so the hospital was different. I didn't have those negative associations with this hospital, but for me, hospitals actually make me feel safe because I feel like if I need help, there is care just seconds away which we will talk about how that played into my birth as it unfolded later on. We never even contemplated the idea of home birth. When I moved to L.A., as I said I was staying at my friend's house and I asked her about who her OB was. The one thing that was really, really important to me was having the same person who sees me deliver the baby. That, I really knew was important to me because the first practice was a rotating practice and I felt lost because I would see different providers at different times. I felt like there was no consistency of advice or thoughts. It was just that everybody would give you different things. Even before I found the amazing provider who I ended up with, even before that, the few places that I called, I was always asking. I did decide not to go with a few practices because they were on a rotating schedule. The woman I found was absolutely lovely and I think was probably VBAC-friendly as opposed to VBAC-supportive. At least she wanted to position herself as VBAC-supportive, but I could tell that she was more on the VBAC-friendly side. She was delivering all of her patients and that was important to me. So when my baby consistently was showing up breech, I was 30 weeks and I was like, “Well, I know you keep saying that it's still okay. The baby might turn, but if the baby continues to be breech, can I still have a VBAC?” At that point, she said, “No. It's hospital policy.” Mind you, I delivered a breech VBAC at that same hospital. She said, “It's hospital policy to do breech via C-section.” So I said, “Thank you.” Through your podcast, I already listened to women who had delivered breech vaginally. I started looking for a provider. I saw Dr. Berlin who I think you have had on the podcast for chiropractic care. Meagan: Yes, so amazing. So amazing. Olga: Yes. I love him so much. When I found him through my doula, I was like, “Dr. Berlin, she continues to be breech,” and she was like, “Oh, then you see Dr. Brock.” I was like, “What? I see Dr. Brock. Who is Dr. Brock?” Then I went and listened to his podcast. He has a podcast as well called Informed Pregnancy with Dr. Brock. As I was driving home, I listened to a breech VBAC birth with Dr. Brock, I just loved him. He was totally a straight shooter just like me. I was like, “This is going to be my doctor.” Making that phone call to him and be like, “Will you take me? I'm 34 weeks,” was really scary. He was like, “Absolutely.” It was so empowering. I saw him and he is just amazing. I switched my care at 34, maybe it was 35 weeks to Dr. Brock in L.A. He delivers at Cedars. Again, that other doctor was saying it was a hospital policy not to do breech. Guess what? Dr. Brock delivered at the same hospital a breech VBAC. When baby continued to be breech, I think at 36 weeks, he did an ultrasound to confirm the position. He honestly gave me the most informed decisions. He said, “You have three options. You can have a C-section if you want and here are the risks. You can have an ECV and try to turn the baby, and you can just not have an ECV and you can have a breech VBAC.” I guess there were four options. He was like, “You can have an ECV and still decide to have a C-section. You don't have to do an ECV and you could have a C-section or you could have a vaginal birth.” I wanted to try to turn the baby. I had an ECV. Dr. Brock has a pretty high chance of turning during an ECV. I also did acupuncture and moxibustion. I did it all. I had Dr. Berlin who is known to turn babies do all of his magic. I did Spinning Babies. I did the ice over my belly. She is stubborn. She was stubborn in my belly. She is so stubborn still. She was really wedged down in my pelvis. She was really low really early in my pregnancy. She was really breech. Meagan: Not moving. Olga: Yeah, she was not going to change. She wanted her own story. I will say that women who have breech babies just have to remind themselves that breech is a variation of normal. That saying was a mantra for me that I kept. “Breech is a variation of normal. Breech is a variation of normal,” and just reminding myself that this is just a variation of normal and that it's okay to have a breech baby. Of course, I was nervous.Meagan: Right, yeah.Olga: Breech babies can have their complications and Dr. Brock was terrific at explaining all of the risks. The bottom line is that the risks of breech are very different than the risks of VBAC. They are just different. It's not like the breech VBAC is scarier or more difficult. It's that they just each have their own fears. We decided to do breech VBAC. Dr. Brock is a super expert in that. We felt really supported. It did change a few things. I really wanted an unmedicated VBAC because my epidural failed with my first and I also never wanted Pitocin. I just wanted to move around. There is something I learned which is a walking epidural which I actually did not use, but my hospital at Cedars offers. For anybody listening, they should learn about a walking epidural. It sounds like a way better option than just the regular epidural but everybody has their own choice obviously. The walking epidural allows you to move around. Meagan: It's a lighter dose. It's technically a lighter dose. Like you were saying, you were fighting the urge to move with your first one and your body took over and you went hands and knees, with a walking epidural, it's lighter. You're able to feel a little bit more, but still not feel everything if that makes sense. Olga: Yeah. I was so scared about the positioning and everything as well. I wanted to move. I wanted an unmedicated VBAC, but as we learned that she was breech, my doctor's rules were that you had to get an epidural for the delivery stage which I also didn't know that pushing and delivery are two different stages.For him, you can push without an epidural, but as it came time to deliver the baby, there was a chance in a breech that he had to move the baby and he needed the mother to stay completely still obviously because my understanding is that with breech, the biggest risk is that if the butt comes out and it's so big that it blocks the cord and there is no air coming into the baby's head. So he at that moment would have to maneuver and deliver the baby right away fully and he could not have the mother move around. That is obviously, the worst-case scenario. That's why you want to have a provider who is very experienced. I knew that I would have an epidural. I get to the hospital. Long story short, here we are. I am mentally prepared. I have an amazing provider. I studied with you guys. I listened to all of the podcasts and it's Friday. I'll never forget it. My husband was like, “I'm going to go golf. Are you okay with that?” I'm 39+2 days. As a reminder, my first baby was late. Meagan: Yep. Olga: I was like, “Fine.” Oh actually, after the ECV, I do have to say that he did check me. I was at 37.5 weeks. I was 4 centimeters dilated already.Meagan: Okay, so your body was doing some prep. Olga: Yeah, so I was already 4 centimeters dilated, but my doctor told me and I think I was 50%, maybe 80% effaced. He was saying to me, “Guess what? As a second baby, you can go for weeks like that.” Meagan: So true. Olga: That was a good reminder not to freak out, but I still put everybody on alert. The other thing I did the last month was that I really stopped talking to anybody negatively even close people in my life. I do recommend creating and being your own advocate. What do you need? I needed a positive space, a healthy and happy. I didn't listen to any podcasts that I didn't preapprove in my prep before. I was just in this happy, protective space. Meagan: Yes. Olga: I wasn't reading the news. I really isolated myself to these happy things and hung out with my toddler. As I said, I stepped down from work and really had the space to prepare. I got my own gown for the hospital. I got my own socks for the hospital. I got an IV band that said, “I can do this,” to remind myself and really cover because I didn't want to get an IV, but my hospital still required me to get one. Meagan: Especially with VBAC. Olga: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to cover that because again, I wanted to be in this special mental space. My husband was like, “Oh. I'm going to go golf.” I'm like, “No problem. It's a Friday. Go golf.” I was kind of feeling yucky. Meagan: Signs. Olga: I was texting my girlfriend, but I didn't take it as a sign at all because I didn't feel great with my first baby at the end, so I figured it was just sort of that I was getting so late in the pregnancy. I remember texting my girlfriend. I'm like, “Do you remember feeling yucky at the end?” She was like, “I really don't.” I was like, “I'm feeling so yucky today.” I had a work call. I took the call and I'm starting to have this leakage in my underwear. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well, just put a pad on it.” Sorry, TMI. But I'm like, “Okay.” I put a pad on it which I wouldn't have even thought. I love and am such a big advocate for doulas. My doula, Elizabeth, from Luma Birth but used to be Grace and Gratitude is just so incredible. So I basically went in and put the pad in. It kept soaking but super slowly. From listening to your podcast and from all of the studies, you always say that if your water breaks, if you stay in your own environment with your own bacteria, there is really not a high risk of infection. Just don't go outside. So I was like, “Okay. I'll stay home,” even if the water broke. Literally, I am at home in the middle of this work call and it dawns on me, “Oh my god. What if it is different with breech?” So I freak out. I'm like, “Oh, I am so sorry. I have to call you back.” I hang up the phone and call my doctor. I'm like, “Dr. Brock. There is a small chance that my water broke. It is leaking. I didn't have a gush or anything like that.” I'm like, “Oh my god. Do I come to see you? It's still Friday.” He's like, “Okay. Here's the thing. If your water broke, I'll see you in 12-24 hours because your contractions are going to start. If your water didn't break, I'll see you on Monday for our scheduled appointment.” You know, he is incredible. He is so professional. He has done millions of births. He has done breech VBAC and to hear the reassurance from him. He was so calm and collected. This just again is a reminder to everybody who is listening that if your water breaks, don't worry. Until contractions start, nothing else matters. Your water breaking doesn't mean your labor began at least in my opinion. Meagan: It doesn't mean you're going to have a baby at home necessarily either. You have to have contractions.Olga: Right, no. Meagan: You have to push a baby out. It's so hard. I always want to remind people that if your heart and your mind and your whole soul and your intuition is saying that you need to go somewhere else, then follow it. But if not, you're typically pretty safe just hanging out and waiting for labor to begin. Olga: Totally and that was so helpful for me that he reassured me. And now, looking back, I do think that my daughter's water broker partially from just the leaking, and I was rushed to the hospital when I did. I probably would have leaked over time. That was happening, so all day, I was feeling yucky. I wasn't having any contractions, at least the ones that I could feel. Again, I have never felt natural contractions so I wouldn't even know what it was feeling like. Meagan: Right. Olga: It was all happening. I did lose my mucus plug weeks before. So here I am. I ordered Domino's. I just was sort of in this environment and my daughter who was at the time 20 months knew. She was holding my baby the whole day. Meagan: Clingy. Olga: Yeah, yeah. Looking back at the pictures from the day, it was one of the sweetest days of my life, to be honest. We just hung out at home, held each other, and watched shows, which, we almost never watch TV. It was a really special day. And then my husband came home. I was like, “You know what? I'm tired. I'm just going to go rest.” At 1:00 a.m., I woke up to go to the bathroom which as anybody in the third trimester knows, we go to the bathroom a lot at the end. I go in there and I'm on the potty. I sit there and I almost felt like she just kicked me. It was like, “Now I know.” It was such a strong contraction. I moved around in the bathroom and it felt great for me to sit in the bathroom always through the third trimester, so I did spend a lot of time on the toilet. I was sitting there. I repositioned myself. I got up to go back to bed. I didn't think anything of it and then boom I get another one. When people say that when contractions start, you know you know, you absolutely know. Meagan: You know, yeah. Olga: On the second contraction, I woke up my husband and I was like, “This is the real deal.” To be fair, for a week before, I did have some Braxton Hicks which I didn't really have with my first. I was calling my doula and I'm like, “I'm having contractions and we are walking around.” She was like, “Okay. How long are they lasting?” I'm like, “I don't know. They fizzle out.” She's like, “That's not a real contraction then.” It is so helpful to have a doula because you can ask all of these questions that maybe feel silly but they're not. Meagan: Well, and help you avoid going in if you don't need to go in and having to call a doctor to get a question. It just helps, yeah. Olga: Totally, totally. So here, I woke up my husband. I'm like, “I know it's real.” We called my doula. She was like, “Stay at home as long as you want and as long as you know.” I'm going to start getting ready. This is 1:00 a.m. On Friday morning, I recall my water breaking at 9:00 a.m. and leaking. This is 1:00 a.m. on Saturday morning. I woke him up. My doula was like, “Listen, let your husband sleep so that he can get some rest, and if you can sleep, sleep as well,” but I was like, “I'm not going to be able to sleep.”I'm calling my girlfriend who is on call to take my baby. She is not picking up the phone which is quite a story but I'm like, “Okay. Let's get going here.” He went to bed in the living room and about 20 minutes in, I woke him up. I'm like, “We have to go to the hospital.” But I guess it wasn't 20 minutes later. It was probably about 4:00 a.m. I just knew at that time that it was starting to get real. Meagan: This is it. Olga: I do have to say that this birth, to me, was so spiritual. During my wedding, I honored my grandma. As I already mentioned, I honored my grandma during the naming of my first baby. But I was not really thinking about my grandma during this birth and during my prep. She was there. I just know. This birth was so spiritual. I was preparing by moving. I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. I love that book. I was practicing moving. I was practicing doing all of these things. I was singing like my grandma would. Out of nowhere, and I am not good. Let me preface, I am not a singer or anything like that. That was such a feeling from within. During my wedding, I made this reference to her, a bracelet. I found the bracelet and I held it in. I just have to say that my baby's birth was so, so spiritual in so many ways. It was one of the most incredible things that had ever happened to me. I was in another world. I was truthfully in another world. I see sometimes people post on Facebook and ask how a body can survive without an epidural and all of these things. You are not in this world. You are bringing life into this world. This is incredible and our bodies can do this because it's not Pitocin contractions. It's really your body that creates them. I was singing through my contractions. I picked up my baby and she was holding me tight. I was having contractions and I was holding her. It just was such a magical moment bringing another baby. I was talking to her and I was telling her how we were working as a team. I had to drop off my daughter. Luckily, my girlfriend gave me the code to her house. Otherwise, they both had their phones off her husband and her. I'm literally walking into their bedroom. It's 5:00 in the morning. I'm like, “Here's my baby. Please.” Meagan: I've gotta go. I've gotta go, yeah. Olga: They were 5 minutes from the hospital. We get to the hospital. It's 6:00 in the morning. They check me. I'm 6 centimeters dilated and 100% effaced. She checks me and they admit me. They then say, “Okay. You are admitted.” From triage, my doula joins me. I really didn't love the nurse and my doula was like, “Don't worry. They change shifts at 7.” At 6:45, I feel like I have to push. I'm so grateful that my doula was there because she advocated for me. Again, I was so educated. I thought that you could advocate for yourself. No, you cannot. You are in a different world. Meagan: It's really hard. Really hard. Olga: So I'm like, “Elizabeth, I have to push.” I'm on my knees, singing through it. She's like, “You have to check her.” They were like, “No. It's not possible.” The lady comes in. She checks me. She's like, “It's not possible. Her water is intact.” Then, the physician assistant comes in who works with my doctor is like, “That's not her water. That is her butt.” I guess it feels the same to them. Meagan: Squishy. Olga: The water did break. There was no water at that point. It was squishy, yeah. Crazy thing is, here we are. I'm ready to push. We need to put the epidural in. My doctor is away because he didn't realize that would progress so fast. Everybody is waiting for him. Everybody is freaking out. I don't know anything because I am in a different world, but my husband told me that everybody was freaking out. There were a hundred doctors in there, a breech VBAC. What is going on? Meagan: Have to see it. Olga: Yeah, and so until my doctor got there, my husband always talks about how once he got there, the atmosphere was like, okay. Everything is going to be okay. That's the other thing. You can ask your doctor if he is going to be there for the whole pushing stage. My Dr. Brock was there for an hour and a half while I was pushing. He held my hand. He talked to me. It was just so incredible. I did have an epidural. I dilated to 10 without an epidural, then got an epidural and pushed for an hour and a half. I had the most beautiful, amazing beautiful baby girl. We named her Frankie because she was frank breech. We were so interested to know. Is Frank the name of the guy who invented frank breech? We weren't sure. We later found out that frank just means stubborn breech. Meagan: Oh, I didn't even know that. Olga: Frank breech is stubborn breech. She is so stubborn. She picked her own name. It was already sort of part of our list of names. That was the breech VBAC story. So then when my little stubborn baby– oh. The one thing I do want to mention here is with breech, if your baby is breech for a long time, even if they change to head down, make sure you have them check for hip dysplasia. I do think a lot of people don't know. I didn't know about this at all. It's completely normal. My baby had hip dysplasia because she was breech basically the whole pregnancy. This is really important because I think that a lot of people think that if they had a C-section, their babies wouldn't have hip dysplasia, but that's not the case. It's how the baby is inside of you. Their hips just don't develop. My baby was then placed in a pelvic harness. That harness imitates what a head-down baby down inside of your body and the hip develops normally. Most times, it resolves on its own. You still have to follow up, but my recommendation is to just make sure that you have them check for it because I am in all of these Facebook groups with people who didn't get checked and they, unfortunately, have a much more complicated time fixing it a little bit later. That was definitely an adjustment and journey on its own. When my little baby was 8 months, we surprisingly got pregnant with our little gift, baby boy. We always wanted three kids, so he just had his own surprise timing. We did try pretty hard with our first two girls. We didn't use IVF or any of the other procedures, but it still took us a while to get pregnant. So it definitely was a surprise pregnancy with our third. He is such a miracle. I had a very difficult first trimester and now, thinking back about it, it could have been because he is a boy. I don't know if there are gender stereotypes in pregnancy but I had a lot of bleeding. I really almost lost him a few times. One of the times there was so much blood. I still cannot believe that he survived. He is such a miraculous little baby. I just cannot be happier having him. He is my light. He is 9 months actually, so 9 months in and 9 months out. Meagan: Crazy. Olga: Yeah. I had an unmedicated birth with him. I think one of the reasons that he wanted to be born so fast is because I think he was scared that Dr. Brock would retire. He knew that I had to have that birth. So I got pregnant. Again, I was very, very active. I obviously had two little kids who still really needed me. I did walk 3 miles. This was much harder in the sense that there are two kids that need you who are so young, but my husband and I both worked as a team. We made sure that I had the space to– and again, you have to advocate for yourself. I talked to my husband. I said, “I need this time to walk because that's how I feel like I am preparing for this birth.” We hired a doula again. One thing that I would say is that this time, my doula had to be gone at 41 weeks. She had a scheduled vacation. I found a backup doula with her help. They partnered together so that if I would go past 41 weeks which in my book is a little bit more complicated birth because the baby will be bigger naturally, so I wanted to make sure that I didn't feel rushed. You have to be so thoughtful about ensuring what you need for a good birth. Set yourself up for success. I didn't want to have any pressure. I had two amazing doulas this time. One of them was at my first birth and the same woman, Elizabeth, ended up being at this birth too. I was doing all of the same things– chiropractic care, acupuncture, listening to all of the podcasts again because this time it wasn't a breech baby. He was head down and I wanted to have an unmedicated birth. The book that I read both times was Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. This time, what really stuck out to me what, I don't know if you remember the chapter where she was developing this mantra of, “I'm going to be big”. Essentially, what she was talking about is that you can channel your vagina to open up wider to let your baby out so that you don't have any tears. I didn't have tears with either of my births and I do say that my doctor told me that that's kind of on him. I said to him, “Dr. Brock, what can I do to prepare to not have tears?” He said, “It's all on me. We have to go nice and slow, nice and slow.” It was so helpful for me to just channel that mantra and I did use that during my birth with my son. I'm going to be big. It also did take my mind off the ring of fire and all of those things that people talk about that sound scary. I wasn't thinking about that because I was chanting almost like, “I'm gonna be big. I'm gonna big.”Long story short, at my 39-week appointment, leading up to it again, I was 4 centimeters dilated. I guess that's how my body processes it. We were talking about doing a membrane sweep at 40 weeks. I was contemplating whether I wanted to do it or not. I really wanted a no-interventions birth. I decided that at 40 weeks, I would do it. I was going to my 39-week appointment and because I was already 4 centimeters dilated, I was a little bit nervous. We lived an hour and a half from the hospital because now we had moved further out. I was a little bit nervous to be driving and also, we don't have family living nearby and my girlfriend couldn't really take on two more kids who are so young, we got a sibling doula. Meagan: Yes. Olga: Our goal as a sibling doula was anytime I had my appointments, she would come and cover the kids at an extra cost so that she could get to know them. My sibling doula was amazing. She was with my kids. I said to my husband, “Do you mind driving me? You can take calls while I am in my appointments.” So he would drive me to the hospital, and just in case, we took our bags everywhere except, and that's a tip that I actually wanted to write down to tell people, except my colostrum which I'll address in a second. We took the bags with us. I had my acupuncture in the morning and then I had my chiropractor appointment so I'm super aligned. I go to my OB appointment. I'm 39+3. He's like, “Well, you're in labor. You're 6 centimeters dilated. Go to the hospital right now.” He's like, “I'm going to break your water.” To me, those were such trigger words. I didn't because I felt like my baby got stuck the first time. I listened to an episode that you had earlier on at some point and you had a side note about never letting someone break your water until they check the baby's positioning. Meagan: Yes. It's a check mark that you have to check, where are we feeling? What is this position? Where are we at? If it happens spontaneously, it happens spontaneously which was done for you the second time, but the first time, it was maybe a fore bag. Olga: Exactly. Meagan: And then they broke your main bag, but it is. It is so important to cool it and wait. Olga: Totally and I think something you said, it's like a lubricant for your body. You need that liquid to be able to have the baby get into the best position possible. So I was really not into the idea of breaking the water. I walked around. I called my doula. He just said, “Go to the hospital. Call them.” I did take about an hour to decide to go to the hospital. I didn't even though this doctor who already delivered my baby, I still just wanted to check in with myself to see if I was comfortable. At the end of the day, here's what I arrived at. It's not the right decision for everybody, but for me, it was the right decision to go to the hospital because my other two babies, which was my biggest fear– I actually did a fear release as well two days before. There's a technique that you guys shared on YouTube. There's a YouTube video. My biggest fear was not taking care of my other girls because they were so young. I had a whole tree of neighbors that were going to come in until the sibling doula comes in and all of those things. Dr. Brock did say. He said, “Your baby is -1 and already 6 centimeters positioned.” He's like, “I'm not going to make it to the hospital.” I was like, “What if I get a hotel room across the street?” He's like, “You are not going to make it to the hospital. The baby is low.” So I decided that for me, for my well-being of being in the right mental space, this is the right time because my baby's are taken care of. There is a sibling doula right there. We went to the hospital. He took his time to come in too which I loved. He gave my body natural time to progress. I requested a pump right away. I was walking. I was bouncing on the ball. I was pumping, trying to get the labor started naturally because there were no contractions still which was really frustrating to me because again, I wanted no interventions. So here we are. He comes in and I'm like, “Dr. Brock, give me the answers to two questions. Number one, what is baby's positioning?” He checks it. It was LOA. It was the most perfect position. And number two, I said, “If you break my water, and my labor doesn't start,” because remember with my second, when my water broke, it took almost 24 hours to labor. I was like, “I do not want to feel rushed. I also want to have the chance to leave the hospital if I want to go home and labor at home.” He said, “I guarantee you.” I already knew his word is right because he delivered my other baby. He's like, “I can guarantee you that you can leave the hospital. I can guarantee you that there are no interventions that we will implement,” because I also did not want Pitocin at all. So I let him break my water and literally, things start within seconds. I think he broke my water and an hour and a half later, my baby was there. Right away, maybe 20 minutes later, I was like, “I have to poop,” and he was there. He's like, “Do not let her go to the bathroom!” He checks me and I was already 8 at that time. It went pretty fast from 6 to 8 to 10 again. My doula was on the way. This time, my husband and I were such a team. I feel like the first time, we were both so scared. We just didn't know and we didn't feel as comfortable. This time, we were swaying together. I just feel so appreciative of the moments we shared just the two of us. My doctor comes in. He's like, “Okay, it's time to bring this baby to the world. Get on your back.” I'm like, “No, can I please have a few more contractions standing up?” He's like, “Eventually, you'll have to get in bed.” I was like, “Okay,” because I trust my doctor, but I was disappointed for sure. I probably would have loved to be standing, but once I got in bed and laid down, I actually did feel better. I did enjoy delivering in that position until the last second. I laid down and had about four pushes. I kept saying to myself, “I'm going to be huge.” I did want to make a joke to my doctor. I'm like, “Is this too late for an epidural?” but I didn't say it because you're kind of in a different world. You're almost in your own little world. I delivered my baby boy without any medication and I have to say that the recovery, even with the epidural for pushing, the recovery with unmedicated birth is the most surreal thing on the planet. With breech, so many people ran in right away to check her because one thing that people might not know about breech is that when baby is coming down, there is always poop, the meconium from the baby. My doctor was telling the nurse, “This is normal. You don't need to freak out.” I think that with head-down babies, they are worried about meconium being in the water. With breech babies, it is always in because they are pushing in the stomach as the butt comes out. Here, they left us alone for two hours. I was telling Dr. Brock. I'm like, “How big is the baby?” He's like, “Well, you can't have it all. We haven't even weighed him. I don't know how big he is.” He ended up being 8 pounds, 2 ounces. Which, they did. For two hours, nobody bothered us. We were just in this peaceful moment with my husband and me. It came full circle from all the interventions and everybody there and not having a moment to ourselves to just being there by ourselves the three of us and having this most incredible, peaceful experience. It was really something. I really wish for everybody to experience that. The recovery, again, I was ready to go hiking that afternoon. It was so different. I think I did push myself a little too much right away primarily because I have two little, young kids. It's good to also let yourself recover, but it was also so, so, so special to have this. Sorry, one last thing that I will say is that breastfeeding was really important to me. I had some challenges in the past, so I had an amazing lactation consultant who I saw at 37 weeks. I also took some breastfeeding classes, but she told me about expressing colostrum starting early on. After 37 weeks, it is safe because baby is sort of technically full-term. I brought this colostrum that I froze starting at 37 weeks. The other thing is– the lactation consultant didn't say this, but we know that nipple stimulation is a good thing. Meagan: It's an inducer. Olga: It's an inducer, exactly. So every day, and ti was amazing for my kids to see me do things with my breast without the baby there so they weren't hating on the baby for taking my attention away. I would just sit there in the playroom with them while they would play and I would say to them, “This is how mommy will feed the baby.” I would express colostrum. I froze so much colostrum. Every day, I honestly wish I did more of it because as you deliver this baby, there's no milk yet, you can take that day to recover and sleep if your partner is there. My baby had jaundice so we had to have him under lights. The nurses would take him, but I was able to give him colostrum. With jaundice, it's very important that they eat a lot. I didn't have to give him any formula because they had so much colostrum. I just highly, highly recommend it. My sister was able to go back. As I said, we didn't take it with us. She and her boyfriend went back and brought it to the hospital frozen. Check with your hospital policies. Ours allowed. Cedars allowed you to bring it. It was so great because it allowed my body to rest for the first 24 hours, my baby to get a lot of colostrum, and I didn't have the pressure of immediately breastfeeding or all of those things because I had it frozen. And I think the breast stimulation actually helped my body dilate to 6 centimeters by the time I was 39 weeks which I think was obviously awesome. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Olga: That's it. That's my story. I have three amazing kids. They make me the person I am and I'm just so grateful to them for choosing me to be their mommy. Meagan: Being a mom really is amazing. I love all of your stories. You had a Cesarean, medicated breech, and unmedicated. Each one morphed you into this person and this parent that you are today. First of all, congratulations on all of your babies and thank you for sharing. Just along the way, I wanted to give a little bullet point of things to remind people of. I'm sure this podcast will be one of those saved episodes for the future. But some really cool things that you brought up is the sibling doula. I have been a doula for people and they have had sibling doulas and it is amazing. It's absolutely amazing. It brings so much comfort because when you feel like you have to be mom, it's really hard to be in labor world and to be doing that. I love that you had a sibling doula. I love that we talked about breaking waters. It's something that I am passionate about and I think it's because although they didn't break my water, it broke spontaneously, but I had poorly positioned babies and a lack of knowledge of getting baby in a better position. So if you're not checking the box of, “Hey, my contraction pattern is good. I'm close. I have good head compression. My baby is in a good spot,” it may not be the most ideal thing to do. And then sometimes you do. You break your water and it's a game changer and that is the best thing for you. So I loved that you talked about that. I loved that you talked about not preparing and then preparing. And I loved so much that in the end of your pregnancy with your second that you went into this space called the bubble. We go into our bubble and we get rid of all of the negativity, all of the hate, all of the news, and stuff that's going to stress us out and all of that. I personally had to do that unfortunately with my mom. That was really, really difficult and it's really hard to do that to someone that you love, but unfortunately, she was bringing negativity into my space. Remember to protect your space. Those people love you. They're not going to hate you. They're not going to never talk to you again, but it's okay to turn social media off, turn text messages off and go into that space because if you can enter that space in that really amazing, powerful zone, it can make all the world of a difference. You educated. You listened to the podcast. So many amazing things. So, thank you so much for sharing with us today and I'm so happy that this one is kicking off the holiday season for us. Olga: I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for doing this and starting The VBAC Link. It just is such an incredible resource and I would definitely not have had the birth I had if it wasn't for you guys. Meagan: Oh, well thank you so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

When Ana found The VBAC Link podcast, it was Meagan's VBA2C that inspired Ana to go for her own! Though VBA2C is thought to be possible only without medical interventions, Ana had a nice, gentle induction, an epidural, and only pushed for 20 minutes! Meagan and Ana discuss different VBA2C induction methods including some non-traditional ways that could be just what you will need. Make sure to listen closely because providers are not likely to offer them unless you ask!Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC Induction MethodsThe VBAC Link Blog: VBA2CThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan Heaton and as always, I'm excited to be with you today and share another story. A couple of months ago when my kids went back to school in August, I asked out on The VBAC Link Facebook and Instagram page what people wanted more of. What that was was vaginal birth after two Cesarean specifically stories. I am going to deliver that to you today. Actually, Ana is going to deliver that to you today. We have a guest sharing her VBA2C story with an induction which is also something that a lot of people don't know. A VBAC after two C-sections can also be induced. We are excited about her story and so grateful for her for being with us today. She even wants to be a doula here in the future, so I'm so excited to talk with her more about her journey, her story, and her desire to be a doula. Review of the WeekMeagan: But of course, we have a review of the week so I don't want to miss that. Today, we have EmilyRessman and this is from Apple Podcasts. She posted it back in June, so not too long ago. She says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August.” Oh, that's actually right now when we are recording, guys. “I found this podcast and it is so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn't know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OBs as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed about the risks. I also love hearing about the CBAC stories as well so I will be able to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.”Well, thank you, Ms. Emily. There was another review. Hopefully, I didn't just reread this review, but there was another review that was also talking about loving hearing the CBAC stories and I love that. I love that you guys love that. It's something that can be triggering and hard to hear, but it is really good to listen to because sometimes birth ends in a Cesarean birth. It may not be desired, but it can still be healing and beautiful. My second C-section, although not desired to be a C-section, I really found it healing and it was nice. It was peaceful to be a part of my birth and to know those options. These CBAC stories are beautiful and I'm so grateful for all of you guys who have shared them. We welcome all stories here. VBAC, even uterine rupture, CBAC, VBAC after multiple Cesareans, you are welcome here. So if you haven't and you want to share your story, feel free to apply. We are sharing both on podcasts and social media because we have so many wonderful submissions. We want to try to share all of your stories. So if you haven't had a chance, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story today. Also, if you haven't had a chance, we would love your reviews. We are in need of more reviews. So if you wouldn't mind pressing pause right now before we get into Ana's beautiful story and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you are, you can just Google The VBAC Link and leave a review there as well. Or on Facebook, or send us a message at info@thevbaclink.com. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. Ana's StoryMeagan: Okay, Ana. I am so excited for you to share this story. So excited because I think the induction is something that makes me really excited because we don't have a ton of induction VBAC after multiple Cesarean stories, and so I'm excited to hear about how your induction went and how you navigated through that, where you were, and all of the fun things. So if you wouldn't mind, I'm going to turn the time right over to you. Ana: I have to say that I can't stop smiling because it feels surreal. I'm such a big fan of the podcast. Meagan: Oh! That makes me so happy. Seriously, we are so grateful for you and all of the listeners and all of the stories shared because we wouldn't have this. We would not have this without you. When Julie and I were together, we could sit and probably talk VBAC until we were blue in the face because we love VBAC. We are passionate about VBAC, but the stories. These stories are what make this podcast, so we are so grateful to you today for being here.Ana: Yeah, so I guess I'll start with my first birth. I was 18. It was a long time ago. I was very, I would say, uneducated about birth. It was also an induction at 41 weeks. Meagan: Okay.Ana: That's important to know because it's the same as my VBAC story, how it started. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Ana: I went in for my induction. I was 1 centimeter, 50% effaced. Again, same as my VBAC. Meagan: That's kind of funny, same stats. Same stats. Ana: Yeah. Yeah, so that was a battle in my mind, actually, for my VBAC because I was so nervous. But everything went well up until a certain point. They started with Cervadil which I hated. It was super intense with super painful contractions as soon as they started it. I got an epidural because of the Cervadil before even Pitocin or anything. I stalled at 5 centimeters for about 12 hours. There was no change. I don't know. I was super upset. I remember when my doctor was like, “Okay. Well, you haven't made any progress. It's been 12 hours.” It was just so devastating to me. I did not want to have a C-section at all. During that first C-section, I was really young. I was 18. It was traumatizing for me. I felt so scared and I didn't have, I had my boyfriend but he was also 18, so we had no idea what to expect or anything. The worst part of that one was that they actually had my boyfriend leave with my baby, so they left me alone in the OR to be stitched up. I'll never forget that. It was horrible. I wanted to see my baby and they left with him. It was terrible. Meagan: Yeah, you can feel abandoned sometimes. Ana: I did. Meagan: And you don't know anyone around you. I'm so sorry. Ana: Yeah, it was definitely something hard. So fast forward to my second birth. Originally, I planned for a TOLAC for this birth as well. That was with my current partner now. I should have said. I had a boy and then another boy. So this is my second son. Yes, anyway backtracking all over the place. I wrote notes and everything and I'm still all over the place. Meagan: That's okay. Ana: So my second birth, I planned to TOLAC, but I did not really prepare as I should have. I think I went into it just like, “It didn't work the first time. What are the odds it's not going to work the second time? I'm going to be fine. I'm just going to wing it.” That did not go well. I think I had prodromal labor. Meagan: Oh yeah. Ana: Yeah. I didn't know what it was at the time though. I just had really intense contractions. They started at 39 weeks and 4 days with him. They didn't cause any cervical change at all because I went to the hospital two nights in a row because they were so intense. I'm like, “What is happening?” And I couldn't get any sleep. So they did medicate sleep for me which was nice. Meagan: Oh, really? Ana: Yeah, so I could get a little bit of sleep. But when they told me that nothing had changed after that, I just felt ready to meet my baby. I was tired of being in pain and nothing was happening. I had no idea what prodromal labor was and I had no idea that it could have been the positioning of the baby or The Miles Circuit. I didn't know what any of that was. I just was like, “I'm done. I want to meet my baby. Sign me up for a C-section.” It was actually healing. It was much more peaceful. They never separated us. I got skin-to-skin in the OR. That experience was healing for me because I did get a much more peaceful and better experience, but it was not a VBAC. Meagan: Right. It's not that it wasn't the birth you desired, but it was still great. Ana: Yeah. Meagan: That's how it was for me too. I didn't desire another C-section, but I still was able to make it healing and positive for the birth that it was. Ana: Right, exactly. Meagan: Yeah. Ana: So my VBAC after two C-sections. Honestly, when we were trying to get pregnant, I was still thinking about options, but I really was considering a repeat C-section actually because of the prodromal labor. I didn't know what prodromal labor was still at this point. I was just very ignorant of it all, I guess. To me, I was like, “Oh, well. You know.” I didn't even know that VBAC after two C-sections was an option. So actually, what happened was that I looked up VBAC on the podcast and this VBAC Link came up. Meagan: Aww. Ana: Meagan, I heard your story and I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a thing. I can do that too.” Meagan: Yes. I love it. Ana: And then I think I listened to every story probably a million times my whole pregnancy. Meagan: There's something about having those stories when you are prepping that heals you. Ana: Oh yeah. It's huge. It is for sure. And then I feel like you learn so much too from other people's stories. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Ana: So thankfully, the hospital I deliver at is very VBAC friendly. I didn't even have to fight for a chance to TOLAC at all. It was so supportive which is so great because battling with yourself mentally, at least for me, was a huge part of my journey, so I'm happy I didn't have to fight with somebody else to get what I want. At my first doctor's appointment, my midwife asked me, “Do you want a TOLAC or do you want a C-section?” I was like, “Oh wow. I want a TOLAC.” I originally told her that my plan was to, if I went into spontaneous labor, I would TOLAC but I didn't want to be induced again because of how the first experience went which is ironic. I was like, “Before 41 weeks, I'll try and if I get to 41 and I don't go into labor, I'll just have a scheduled C-section.”The whole time until the last month, that's what I thought, but obviously, that changed. To prepare this time, I just completely absorbed everything I could find about birth and VBAC. I took The VBAC Link course actually, too, which was super helpful. I read Ina May. I think I read all of her books. I read, I think it was, How to Heal a Bad Birth. Meagan: Such a good book. Ana: Yes. Yes, it was huge. I just realized from my second birth that I had a lot of things that I needed to work on to be able to believe in myself. Also, a huge part of my story too before I get into my birth story was that my mom had all C-sections and then my older sister had four C-sections herself. So to me, there was a huge belief with my mom and my sister that, “Oh, we just can't do it. We just can't give vaginal birth. None of us can. That's just how it is.” So when I told them that I wanted to have a VBAC after two C-sections, they were a little taken aback like, “What? Why do you want to do that? You've tried twice. Why do you want to do it again?” Especially my mom, I would say. I was actually a TOLAC, so she was trying to have a VBAC with me. Meagan: Oh really? Ana: Yeah, and this was the ‘90s so that's when it took off. It was in the '90s. She was induced though. She didn't progress and she had another C-section. She really believed that “My body doesn't work. It's broken,” and then she thought that it was genetic. We got into some arguments actually. I love my mother, but it was hard to work through. That was another thing I had to shut out with my mom and my sister. I was kind of like, “I know. I understand and respect your concerns, but I don't want to talk about this with you,” because it was that negative voice that was like, I know when I'm going into labor that's what I'm going to think about. I had to really tone that down. Meagan: Yeah. Ana: Coming into my birth story, I hit 40 weeks, and then it just kept dragging once I hit my due date. I'm like, “I really thought I'd go into labor by now.” I actually decided– I think it was my 39-week appointment– that all of a sudden, I did want an induction at 41 weeks. That was actually because of The VBAC Link Facebook Community. There are a lot of stories there too that I thought were super helpful. When I was looking up VBAC after two C-section stories, I came across quite a few that were induced. I talked with a midwife and I decided that was something that I wanted to do. So 41 weeks came and I was scheduled for my induction. My partner and I got there and they completed all the intake. It took a while. We started with the Cooks catheter. That started at about 1:30 in the afternoon. They placed it. That went well. A little bit after, I started contracting. It was manageable and then it got really uncomfortable, so that's when I was looking for relief. I got into the shower which was amazing. Hot water is amazing for contractions. That went on for a few hours. I tried the TENS machine. I did not like that. I tried the nitrous. That made me nauseous. I was like, “Nope.” Those were the three things I wanted to try were water, nitrous, and the TENS machine. I was like, “Okay, now I want an epidural.” I was like, “I can't do it anymore.” I was just so tired because obviously I have two kids at home and then I was there all day. This was probably at 8:00 or 9:00 p.m. at this point.I was just really ready to get rest. I knew I had a long way ahead of me. At around 9:30-10:00, I got the epidural placed and I felt amazing at that point. I immediately got some sleep and then the Cooks Catheter didn't come out on its own actually. But when they took it out, I was a 3 or a 4. Meagan: That's great. Ana: Yeah, so that helped a lot. They started Pitocin at around 3:30 a.m. and then my water broke on its own with one contraction which I was really proud of because it never happened before. Then I started feeling, I think after my water broke, that was at about 6:00 a.m. I think. I started to feel more pressure and the contractions were coming back. I got more medicine for my epidural. The nurses were amazing. I have to say that was the best thing about the hospital I delivered at. It was just amazing and all of the nurses were great. My nurse was coming in switching sides. I had the peanut ball which I think helped so much in making the difference between my first experience with induction and this experience. Around 3:30 in the afternoon, that's when I was experiencing a lot of pressure that I'd never experienced before. It wasn't pain. It was just pressure. Meagan: Was it vaginally or rectally? Ana: Everywhere. Meagan: Everywhere. Ana: Yeah, it was really intense pressure. My midwife came in. She checked me and said, “You are 8 centimeters.” I was like, “What?!” I stalled at 5 centimeters with my first so right there, I felt that feeling of, “Okay, my body is not broken. It made it past 5.” That was the big moment where I was like, “Oh my god. It's happening.” At that point, it was the waiting game. Waiting to be complete because she was at 0 station, so she was coming lower. That's what all the pressure was. She was starting to come down. I remember that this was such an out-of-body experience from this point on. My epidural just stopped working that well. I started to feel everything again. I was at 8 centimeters hitting transition. I didn't know what to do to cope. I remember my partner and the nurse were just like, “Just breathe. Just breathe.” I got the sweats. I was like, “I can't breathe.”Meagan: It's hard. Yeah. Ana: I was trying to stay calm, but I was like, “Oh my goodness.” That was another moment in my head when I was like, “Why did I sign up for this? Why am I doing this to myself?” Even though it was what I wanted, it was such a mental battle every step of the way. My partner was such a huge help in bringing me back to reality. He was like, “You can do this. You can do this. I believe in you.” He was great. At about, I remember I was complaining about more pressure, so actually, at this point, it was probably at 5:00 p.m. Every time I had a contraction, I was actually bearing down. Unless you've had the feeling of the fetal ejection reflex, it's hard to explain. It was an uncontrollable bearing down just like when you poop which, the nurse was telling me–Meagan: I always tell my clients that it's the cutest poop you're ever going to take. Just embrace it. Embrace the feeling.Ana: Yeah. I was right. I was like, “Oh shoot.” I had that feeling. I was complete when the midwife came in. They got everything ready for me to push. Baby was having a couple of late decels that they had been monitoring. They were monitoring the whole time. It was starting to get, I think, to the point where they didn't really like it as much. I felt the pressure in the room change. They were telling me to push, teaching me how to push, but after a couple of times, the OB that was there explained to me what was happening. She said, “If you can't get her out in the next couple of contractions, you have an option. We can do a vacuum delivery or a C-section.” She said, “A vacuum delivery is going to be much faster to get her out.” But her heart rate was not what they wanted. So that part was intense. It got a little scary there for a minute, but I only pushed for 20 minutes. When she told me that, I just gave it all I had. I pushed her out and it was the most intense thing I ever felt, but also as soon as she was out, it was all worth it. They put her on me for the first time and I never experienced that before. It was amazing to be the first person to hold your baby. She came out perfectly healthy, so that was good. I will never forget it. After they put her on my chest and I looked over at my boyfriend, I literally was just like, “Why did I even want to do this more than once?” My nurses started to laugh. They were like, “Because you forget it all.” I felt like I just could not, I couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe I did it. I just kept saying over and over again that I did it. I did it. I did end up having a second-degree tear which was not fun, but I'm actually kind of grateful. I felt like it could have been worse with how hard I did have to push to get her out because of the heart rate decels that were happening. I mean, my first vaginal delivery and only pushing for 20 minutes is really good. It was pretty fast. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say for stalling, not progressing and all of these things, it was pretty quick. It makes me think that with your first, “Oh, it's been 12 hours.” But the same thing with me. My first was also 12 hours where he was like, “Yeah, it's been 12 hours.” We're first-time moms. My body had never done this before. It just seems like the first time, we weren't given a chance. And look, it took time. This induction took time, but amazing. You just needed someone to trust your body and its ability and your ability to do this. It is hard when it comes down to it and they are like, “Hey, we're talking about all of these inductions. We've got to get this baby out fast.” That's a lot of pressure on you. It can be scary, but you went it and you did it. You totally did it. Oh, I love it. For the Cook's catheter, in some places, they call it a Foley. In some places, they call it a Cook. That is such a great way to induce. A lot of people say that it's contraindicated, but we see it happen all the time. It does have success. Ana: Yeah, definitely. My first birth, I should add, was at a different hospital. That's why I did not go back there because I felt like the team you have around you plays a huge role in your birth outcome. The experience was night and day at the hospital I delivered at this time. Actually, I had my second and third birth at the current hospital. They both were amazing experiences. Meagan: They really sound supportive, loving, and encouraging. It really helps when they educate and tell you their options like, “Hey, we're going to do this. These are some options, but we don't want to do that. Let's just get this baby out.” Ana: Right. They never did anything without talking to me which is huge. Because sometimes, I know in my first birth, I definitely felt that things were just happening to me. I didn't have a say. It was very like, “Oh, we're going to break your water now. We're going to do this to you now.” This time, it was not like that at all. I was a part of my care which I think is really important.Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. That's one of the things. Even if the birth doesn't end up exactly how you wanted or envisioned, I feel like being a part of your care and being an advocate in your space and having someone talk to you as though you are someone making these decisions because you should be. It really makes a difference in the overall view of birth. I'm not saying that it totally takes away from any sad feelings or anything like that, but it makes a big deal when you are a part of your birth and you are helping to call the shots in making the decisions versus having people just say, “We're doing this. We're doing this,” or “We did this.” Not even like, “We're going to do this.” It's, “We've done this. This is what we did.” That happens too.Ana: Right. I didn't realize how much it did happen until I went on this journey of reading everything I could and reading stories and watching documentaries. I'm happy that a lot more women are educating themselves so now I feel like we are taking back our power with birth. Meagan: Absolutely. We are taking back our power with birth. I love that. Oh my gosh. I love that. Okay, let's talk a little bit about– so you kind of mentioned a few of them. How were you induced with your first? Ana: They did Cervadil and then Pitocin. Meagan: Cervadil and Pitocin, okay. We know that Cytotec, Cervadil, and those types of things are usually not used with VBAC because they are contraindicated and there's a whole history with that. That's probably why they didn't do that with this baby. But sometimes, the cervix isn't soft enough, open enough for a Foley or a Cook. They can't get it in. That's where a lot of people feel stuck. They feel like they don't have any other option other than scheduling a C-section. I also just want to say on a side note that scheduling a C-section is okay too. That is not a bad thing. If that's something that someone desires, that is okay and we encourage everyone to follow their heart. If they are like, “Okay. In my mind, I'm going to do everything I possibly can on my mind and if my baby doesn't come by this date, I'll schedule a C-section.” That's similar to what you were thinking. That's fine. That is totally okay. But there are other ways to induce. Like I was saying, sometimes the cervix isn't in a prime state for those balloons. There are other things that they can do. They can actually start Pitocin on a really low, slow drip. The thing about Pitocin is that it's not something that is going to open your cervix. It's got to cause contractions and do its work. But it can get your cervix just enough where you can get a Foley or a Cook catheter.A long time ago, Julie had a personal client who was a VBAC after three C-section mom. In fact, I think she's on the podcast. It was kind of that way where nothing was happening with her cervix at all. They were like, “No. We really suggest a C-section.” She was like, “No. Just start me on Pit.” She was on Pit for a really long time, but it got her open. It got her a catheter and went from there. You can start and you can do that where you get a low dose of Pit. These aren't things that are normal. They are not as common, I should say. These are things that you are going to have to request and really talk to your provider to see if they are on board with doing this and if they can help you in that way. Sweeping membranes is a softer VBAC induction method. Sometimes scraping the membranes can stimulate, evening primrose oil, or nipple stimulation. Quite frankly, sex is a great, great tip to start softening that cervix. But if you're past that point, yeah. Slow-dose Pit before a catheter is really wonderful. Sometimes providers are like, “Oh, we'll just break your water right off the bat.” That's fine too. It's called artificial rupture of membranes, but it's not necessarily as ideal because if you have a high baby or baby is in a wonky position or labor is not ready to start, then we still have Pitocin and things to come after that. I love how you were like, “My water broke on its own this time and I was so proud of my body.” It's awesome. It's more ideal for us to wait for our water to break spontaneously, but sometimes, artificial is the answer. Doing what is best for you and what is the most comfortable thing for you in that state. Going through this now, having had an induced VBAC after two C-sections, are there any tips that you would give to the listeners out there walking into that space? Ana: I would definitely say that an induction can take a long time. Do not feel pressure because even this time, it was 28 hours from start to finish. That's a long time but everything was going fine. I mean, it doesn't matter how long it takes as long as you are healthy and your baby is healthy. It can take days to be induced. Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. Ana: Don't go in with the expectation, “I have to have a baby in 12 hours or 24 hours,” because that's often not the case especially if it's your first vaginal delivery. Pushing, usually, the second stage in your first delivery can take longer as well. I also would say to educate yourself on every method of induction even for VBAC specifically just so when every step you get to, you are educated and you can make whatever choice is best for you. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, whatever choice is best for you. Exactly what you were saying, that is how you find what choice is best for you. You get the education. You learn about VBAC. Learn about CBAC. You learn about induction. Learn about all of the things and then you are able to take charge and make the choice that is best for you, your family, your baby, and your experience. I love that so much. I'm so proud of you for going in and going for it and taking charge of your care and learning, listening, watching the stories, and all of the things so you could feel prepared. I'm so glad that you had a beautiful experience. Ana: Thank you. When I think about it, I'm still like, “I can't believe I did that. I did that.” I'm like, “If I can do that, I can do anything.”Meagan: Right? Don't you feel untouchable?Ana: Yeah, it's so empowering. Meagan: Yes, it really is. That's amazing. Birth should be empowering. Birth should be empowering. This is a big deal in our life. You might have little details fade, but you will never forget the day. I will never forget the day that each one of my kids was born. Our family was growing. Our family was transforming into this beautiful family of two, three, four, and five. It's just something that I won't ever forget. I want those memories to be happy and positive. Like I said, I didn't desire either of my two C-sections, but I still can find the positive in them and have found healing. I'm so grateful for them because I wouldn't be here probably today. I honestly wonder. I always wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse but I even wonder if I didn't have those two C-sections if I would be here with you today and be so passionate about VBAC and understand VBAC the way I do. I don't know if I would or if I wanted to be a doula. I don't know. I wonder. I know you mentioned maybe wanted to be a doula one day. Do you feel like these births have inspired you from that or have you always wanted to be a birth worker?Ana: It's actually kind of funny because when I was a little kid, I had a million baby dolls and I always would pretend to be a mom. I think that I was always drawn to being a mom and motherhood. Through my birth experiences and discovering all of the different aspects of the birth world, I think that came from my desire to just be with women. I'm so passionate about women and being empowered. Every woman should be educated and should never feel like they had no options or no choice. I think that's the part that makes me so passionate. Definitely, experiences like my first experience in birth were traumatic and that definitely lit a fire in me to seek out all of the education and other women with like minds who had gone through similar things. I stay at home now, but I was a nail tech, so I would talk to women all of the time, all of my clients, and held their hands through them getting married and having babies. I'm always the person when they get pregnant, I tell them everything. I'm like, “You need to get this book. You should do that. Oh, do this.” They always say, “You would be so good at that. You would be a good doula. You would be a good nurse. You would be so good at that.” Meagan: It's coming your way. It's coming. You're going to do it. You've got the passion. Oh, well thank you so much again for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your beautiful story. I know that just like everybody else you're going to touch someone out there. There is going to be someone that connects to your story so much and listens to it on repeat because they are trying to do the exact same thing that you did. So thank you so much. We will have the induction blog in the show notes if you want to learn more about those methods of induction. Feel free to check that out and then we will also have a link for more about VBAC after two C-sections as well.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Is the goal of your Homebirth to have pretty images, or is it to seize the experience of motherhood and revel in all of its glory? Depending on your goal, you'll want to consider how you prepare. If you merely want to “get through labor”, then a course focused on coping techniques may be just fine… But if you're looking to enjoy the full blueberry pie, not just the outer edge of the crust… If you're looking to experience childbirth as the honorable, noble right of passage that it was always meant to be… A surface level approach to childbirth preparation isn't going to cut it. Inside of The Homebirth Collective, our focus is on the internal experience far more than the simple external sequence of events. Why? Because you deserve more than to just “get through labor”. You deserve to see this event as the life-changing, sacred, rite of passage, mother-making, God-given experience that it is. That it was designed to be. If you're ready for more and you can already see The Homebirth Collective is the answer for you, I want you to fill out the application in my bio and send me a DM saying “ME!” Resources: FREE Homebirth Essentials Guide Happy Homebirth Collective

“Once I knew what it was, that helped. It's a physiological thing. There's nothing actually wrong with me. My experience with it was pretty extreme. Our bodies are so amazing and they serve us so well, but there are differences for everybody.”Brenda's six births include a medicated hospital birth, a crash Cesarean, an unmedicated VBAC, an HBAC, an emergency C-section, and a gentle, planned Cesarean. Her stories are wildly different but all inspiring in their own ways!Brenda also gets raw and vulnerable with us as she shares her intense postpartum experiences with Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex (D-MER). Her choice to fight for healing in a positive way has helped her come out of the fog every time.Have you experienced D-MER?Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Plan for a Natural Family-Centered CesareanThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Meagan, your host, which is so weird to say that it's just me by myself. I don't know how long it's going to take to get used to that, but here I am and I'm still so excited to be with you. We have an awesome episode today. We have our friend, Brenda, and she has a lot of stories to tell you. I am so excited to learn more about all of her birth journeys. She is a mom of six and has had a mixture of vaginal, unmedicated, medicated, home birth, VBAC, and planned Cesarean. All of the things, so we are so excited to dive into her stories today. Review of the WeekMeagan: As usual, we always have a Review of the Week and I am going to be reading that for you today. This is from a mama in Australia. I don't even know how to actually how to say her username. It's awesomebarbie. Sorry if I'm botching that, love. Her topic says, “Two angels sent from above.” It says, “Hey, ladies. I'm from Sydney, Australia and I've been a silent fan for months now. Ever since having my C-section on November 19th, I have been obsessed with achieving a vaginal birth. Luckily for me, I fell pregnant on July 20th and I'm currently 33 weeks.”“Listening to your podcast has encouraged me to be strong-minded and educated me so much. It has taught me how to self-advocate and stand up for my body. Thank you, guys. I am going for my VBAC in late March. You guys won't need to stalk me because I will write you guys either way.”I love that because we do. We stalk you guys. “I hope to be on your show soon. Love, Wendy. Sydney, Australia.” It's so funny because when we read reviews from the past, we do. We love to go back into The VBAC Link Community on our Facebook group and see if they have posted and what the outcome was. So thank you so much, Wendy. We love you back and we are so glad that you have been with us. Brenda's StoryMeagan: Okay. We are going to turn the time over to Brenda. Before we do, I want to just give you a little sneak peek of what we've got for the little bit in the end. There's my son in the background. So like I said in the beginning, she's had six kiddos and something that we want to talk about at the end is gentle Cesareans. This is something that I personally had as well with my second C-section and it made all the world of a difference in my experience. And then we also wanted to talk about D-Mer. Hang in and listen to this amazing story and at the end, hang in there because we want to talk about D-Mer a little more. Okay, cute Brenda, are you ready for this? Brenda: I'm ready. Meagan: All right. Well, I will turn the time over to you. Brenda: Okay. So yeah. I'm super excited to talk. I mean, who doesn't love talking about their children's births? And so I guess I'm just going to run through. Like you said, I have six kids and each birth has been totally different. My first was over the estimated due date. I kind of went into labor, but I was not progressing very quickly. I basically was induced because they gave me Pitocin. So that one–Meagan: Spontaneous, but induced. Brenda: Yeah and I was a first-time mom. I had been in early labor for two days. I was exhausted. So yeah. 3 centimeters and I was pretty much panicking with the pain. I got an epidural which actually, I think, helped me relax. There were some complications with him. He had aspirated meconium so he had to leave for– I don't know. I don't remember how long, but it was fairly uneventful. For my second birth, there are 18 months between the two boys. I went in to be induced because I was worried about him being over and aspirating meconium, so I was like, “Okay, from this experience, I'm going to do this with the next one.” I was still not super informed really about anything. So I went in to be induced. Everything was going really well. I think right around 6 centimeters, his heart rate started crashing. That happened multiple times, so they took me back and put me under general which was really scary. It was really, really scary. I remember looking up at the nurse who was next to me. I just remember looking at her just like, “Can you please pray for me? I am so scared right now.” And yeah. Then I woke up. My first memory was that I was holding this baby. We didn't know the gender so I was like, “Oh, is this a boy or a girl?” It was just that you are thankful for it and you are thankful for everything turning out okay, but after that experience, I was really disappointed with it. I was really disappointed that I had this experience. It was traumatic and I had mild postpartum depression after I had my son, Lincoln.And so after that, I was like, “Okay. There has to be something better than this.” I did not like that. And so I started down the road of, “How can I have a better birth?” I completely nerded out on everything. I got pregnant with my third and was just, I mean, I read all of the books. Ina May, I watched all of the movies. I was just like, “I really, really want to have a VBAC.” I got a doula. I started doing all of the things I could do to prepare for that. I went into labor. I think it was five days after my estimated due date. I tried to stay at home as long as possible. I went to the hospital and I was already 8 centimeters. Meagan: Oh!Brenda: I remember tears streaming down my face because I was like, “I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen.” And an hour and a half later, I had my third son. It was seriously the best day of my life. It was my birthday. Meagan: Aww. Brenda: Yeah. The sun was shining through the window. It was so cool and peaceful in the room. The doctor came in and he just sat at the end of the bed. I just had my baby. It was perfect. It was amazing. It was the best day of my life, one of the best days of my life. Obviously, the satisfaction of having a natural childbirth and just, “Okay. I did it.” It was empowering. Also, just the recovery, everything was so much easier, and yeah. I mean, it was awesome. I was super thankful for that. And so then when I got pregnant with my fourth son, I really was like, “You know what? That went so well.” We lived right across the street from the hospital where I had all of my kids. So I was telling my husband at the time, “Maybe we should just have a home birth.” And so I started looking into that. We had some really difficult things going on at that time and just really liked the idea of having more privacy in our home too. So I found a midwife and I went into labor. I think I was nine days over. It was kind of funny because she would check on me and I just was totally not communicating. She would be like, “How are you doing?” Because I had told her that I had started having contractions. She ended up showing up at my house and was like, “We just felt like we needed to come to check on you.” And so I ended up being 6 centimeters when she came. At that point, it was just really chill. We just hung out. I was washing my dishes and making them coffee. It was very relaxing and just, I don't know. It was like, “I just don't even feel like I'm in labor because this is so chill.”Meagan: So chill. That's awesome. Brenda: Yeah. I wasn't even in a lot of pain and it was just really awesome. I really wanted to have him in my tub, so I did go in the tub for a little bit and at that point, my contractions were getting quite a bit stronger. I was pretty tired. There was a lot of emotional stuff going on in my life at that time and I was just kind of checked out. My midwife came into the bathroom because, at that point, she kind of just stood back and let me do my thing. She checked me and I was 9.5 with a lip. She was like, “All right. Well, you have a little bit of a lip left. You can try to push a little bit, but if it doesn't take care of it, you can stop and wait it out.” So I tried to do that for a little while and I got to the point where I was just like, “I'm done. What other option do we have?”I ended up getting out and going into my bedroom. She manually stretched my cervix while I was pushing which was extremely painful. It was probably the most difficult thing I had experienced during childbirth and very different from my VBAC in the hospital. It was obviously a really great experience and it ended up being fine. The delivery was fairly easy, I guess. I never had any tearing during any of my births. Two of my kids were over 9 pounds, and so my recovery and just the pushing had been really pretty easy for me which I am thankful for. So overall, besides the cervix stretching, it was a really good experience. So then fast forward five years. During that five years, I had gotten divorced and remarried. I had four boys and I then was pregnant with my first child, Ruby, with my husband. I was super excited to be having a girl after four boys. I was planning to VBAC. I mean, I had just assumed that's what would happen. My provider was really supportive. I did have a little bit of hesitation because I knew that I had scarring on my cervix. It had torn when I had my son with the HBAC, and so I was feeling a little bit like, “Is that going to create issues with the delivery?” because I was reading into that and trying to learn all of the things about breaking down scar tissue. But I figured, “Well, I'll just try, and whatever happens happens.” I think I was about four days past due. I had been having contractions for a few days. I remember being in the kitchen a couple of days before I had her and I had to stop doing what I was doing because of my abdomen. I had a contraction and it just was really painful which was really bizarre to me because it came out of nowhere. I just kept going and they went away. For the next couple of days, I had really low energy. I'm like, “Well, yeah. I'm having a baby. This is common. You can get flu-like symptoms and clean out and all of this stuff.” And so, yeah. Four days after my estimated due date, I just didn't feel good. I felt flu-like symptoms but again, I thought, “Well, I am having a baby.” My husband and my parents were over and they were telling me, “You don't look very well. Do you not feel good?” And I'm like, “Well no, but I'm super tired. I'm not sleeping.” I forgot to mention that I also was very sick with the majority of my pregnancies, so horrible indigestion. Throwing up all of the time, just coming out of both ends all of the time, so I wasn't in the healthiest spot, but I was like, “Yeah. I'm really tired and I don't feel good, but whatever.” So I lay down and the only time I've ever taken a nap in all of my pregnancies was this time. I fell asleep on my bed for over an hour and a half which was so crazy. I woke up and my husband was like, “I really think that we should take your temperature because you are acting funny,” which is another thing. I hallucinate when I have a fever and get super weird. I was like, “Okay, whatever.” So he took my temperature and I was running a fever. I was like, “Well, I'm fine. I'm just really tired.” He was like, “No. I really think that we should go to the hospital.” And at that point, my sisters were involved. They don't live in the area, but they were involved and they were all side-texting him like, “Brenda needs to go to the hospital. Brenda needs to go to the hospital. This is making us nervous.” I definitely was declining rapidly. I did not feel well at well. I couldn't really walk. My abdomen just hurt really, really bad. Meagan: That's so scary. Brenda: It was really weird, but I still was just like, “Whatever. I just am really tired.” They finally convinced me to go to the hospital so I'm like, “Fine. I'll just go there and get some medicine and then I need to get better so I can have a baby.” So it's thirty minutes from our house to the hospital. From the time we left to the time we got to the hospital, I was a complete mess. Any time my husband would go over any bump or anything, I just was in so much pain. My abdomen hurt so bad. I can't really even describe the feeling, but it was so painful. I remember getting there and I was so mad at him because I was thinking, “Why are you going over these potholes? This is so painful.” And I was thinking like, “I've had four children. What is going on? This is really weird. I should be able to handle this and I'm not handling this.” So we get into the emergency room and by this time, I'm shivering. It's summer in Minnesota, so it was probably 90 degrees and humid. I was in black leggings and a sweatshirt and I was freezing. So we get in there and the ER lady was like, “Are you here for labor and delivery?” And I was like, “No. I'm not.” I'm here. I need to see a doctor because I need some medicine. I was super belligerent. I'm not that way. I'm a very passive, quiet person, but I was basically almost yelling at anyone I came into contact with, which, I don't really remember any of this. They wanted to put me in a wheelchair and I refused. I wanted to walk up the stairs. I was just being really weird and totally out of character. And so we got up to labor and delivery and they said, “Yeah. You're running a fever and we are going to give you some fluids. We'll admit you because eventually, you'll have your baby, but we know you want to have a VBAC so we will just take it slow.” Over the course of, I think it was maybe twenty minutes, they were trying to put an IV in which was not working, I guess. It was another thing I don't really remember. It made me realize how out of it I was because I guess they had multiple people come in and try to put my IV in. There was blood everywhere and I don't remember any of it. And so they came in and they were like, “We are going to do a rectal just to get a more accurate read,” and my internal temperature was pushing 107. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Brenda: Yeah. I was exhibiting other signs of sepsis. The doctor came in. I was going into septic shock, so they brought me back and did a C-section. It was a really crazy thing. She ended up being– they did come in. I don't remember this either, but they told my husband, “We don't really know what the outcome could be because this is really serious.”It was scary for him, but he did great. He was awesome. I was completely out of it and saying really weird things because of all of the medication I was given. He was just really great and everything turned out fine. She was healthy and as soon as I was cleaned out– my uterus was completely full of green fluid which makes sense about the pain. It was completely infected. Everything was just infected. And so they actually washed me out which was really weird, but as soon as I got back to the room, within probably several hours, I was completely back as far as temperature-wise. My color had returned. When the doctor came in, he was like, “I don't even recognize you from the person that came in.”It just was really crazy how one, how quickly things can change, and then two, just how little control we have in those circumstances. I had no control over anything and it was completely different than my previous experiences. I was not expecting to have a C-section because I was septic. I had never even heard of that before. I felt like my recovery with that was fine. I don't think anyone enjoys recovering from a C-section, but I had a really great support system and my husband is really helpful and hands-on, so I felt like it went well. I felt like the postpartum period was good. I don't know. It just seemed like she entered our family and it was awesome. It was super awesome. I didn't feel like I was impacted much by her birth as far as being traumatized or anything so that was great. So then I got pregnant again. There are about two years in between Ruby and her sister. Her younger sister, Bridget. And so I always thought, I hadn't heard too much about a VBAC after two Cesareans but it was definitely something I was interested in. As I started looking around and trying to find a provider that would support that, it was pretty much like hitting dead ends everywhere. Oh, and it was during COVID. There was a birth center in Minneapolis that would normally do it but because of COVID, they weren't able to do any VBACs. If you were a VBAC, you would have to go to the hospital that they worked with. COVID had put a ton of restrictions on that, so that was out. And so I ended up finding a provider who was an hour and a half away and she was amazing. She was so reassuring and so positive that this was something I could do. And so from probably four months to eight months, I was seeing her and making the drive. I would go to the appointments and feel really positive about it. I felt really positive. I felt, “Yes, I can do this. This is amazing. I'm going to have a–” my plan was to have the VBAC and I could do a water birth at their center. I could basically deliver my own baby. I was thinking, “I'm going to have a VBAC after two Cesareans and it's going to be amazing and this is going to be the grand finale of all of my birthing experiences.” I thought, “Well, why not? Because I have had VBACs. I know I can do it.”And then I would leave and just start feeling uneasy again which I know can happen and I've heard other stories, listening to other birth stories like, yeah, you doubt and then you go back and you feel like, “Okay. I can do this. I can do this.” So I basically was on that rollercoaster my whole pregnancy and wasn't really seeing her very much because of COVID, like, minimal visits or whatever. And so I think it was 35 weeks, 36 weeks. I went to an appointment. It was fine. I left and I just had this horrible, uneasy feeling in my chest. I looked at my husband and I'm like, “I shouldn't do this.” He's like, “What do you mean?” I'm like, “This is not the right choice for this baby.” And he was like, “What are you talking about? This is what you want. We're doing this. You can do it.” And I just was like, “No. This is not the right choice and we need to change our plan.” I just started crying and he was trying to be helpful like, “Okay, are these hormones? Is this where we need to have another pep talk with our midwife? What's going on? How can I help you?” But it was just this feeling, that mom instinct like, “I need to do something different.” And so I called the OBGYN that I had with Ruby and I just asked if I could come in. So I went in and I just told her everything I was feeling. She was so amazing and so supportive and just tried to even still give me options on having a VBAC after two Cesareans. She couldn't do it, but she could try to find other options. But at that point, I just felt so strongly that I needed to have a scheduled Cesarean that I just was like, “You know what? No. I appreciate you and advocating for me, but this is what I want to do. I know that this is the right choice,” which was very weird to get to the place of accepting that, but I felt total peace about it. She actually started talking to me about the gentle Cesarean and basically said, “These are the things that I can do,” so that was really cool to be able to have a say in that. She was awesome. She pulled Bridget out very gently to help mimic coming out of the birth canal and to try to squeeze the fluids out. She delayed the clamping as long as she could. They put Bridget on my chest right away and so overall, it was a completely different experience than what I had with my other C-sections, obviously. Obviously, I would have wanted to have a VBAC, but it just was very peaceful. I felt respected and I just felt very peaceful knowing it was the right choice for that. And so, yeah. Those were all of my births. I guess the next thing would be postpartum. D-MER and PostpartumMeagan: Yeah. I want to just say, way to go following that intuition. We talk about it all the time here on this podcast and it's something that is so hard to sometimes understand and decipher whether it's just fear or if it's truly intuition. Your husband was like, “Wait. No, no, no, no. This is not what you want.” And you were like, “No. It's not necessarily what I want. It's what I feel is right.” And it's so hard. I think it was Julie or somebody who told me a long time ago and I swear by this because I've tuned in. It's something that's this weird thing. This intuition will not place fear. I don't know how to explain it. Intuition will not be fearful. It's just factual, right? It's, “This is what I should do,” but it's not fear.Brenda: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: It's hard to decipher through that, but yeah. So let's talk about postpartum. Let's talk more about your postpartum journey. Brenda: Yeah, so after I had Bridget, I definitely struggled more and basically went through this period of spiraling into this what I now understand as postpartum psychosis which was really scary because I had no idea what was going on, but I essentially became unsafe. I couldn't drive because I would want to run into traffic or I couldn't be left alone with my kids. I couldn't shower. I was completely debilitated and it was really, really scary. And so I had that happen. Thankfully, I have a really amazing support system that rallied around me and I was able to get help, counseling, medication, and family support fairly quickly which helped me get out of that initial psychosis but then shortly after that, my dad passed away from COVID. He had actually come out to help me. He and my mom had come out to help me with my postpartum and then he got COVID and died. So that was really, really hard and threw a wrench in everything because then it was like, “Okay. Well, now I'm grieving, but also, I'm not really stable.” And so that's been my journey for the last year is trying to come out of that. It was a combination of help, asking for help, counseling, and changing medication which is another thing. I've never been on medication. I don't take stuff. I'm very pretty naturally minded, so that was a really humbling experience like, “I need help,” and “Why doesn't anyone talk about this? What is going on with me?” So I feel like now, I am coming out of the fog but it's been a really, really long journey that can be connected with the D-MER which, if you people don't know, it's Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex. I've had it with all of my kids starting with my first. My family doctor was the one who first introduced me to D-MER because I told them about the feelings that I was having. He had told me, “Yeah. It's this condition not talked about, but it's basically the dopamine is inaccurate. Whatever is being released, there is a glitch.” D-MER can vary for women, but in my case, it was 15 seconds before my milk let down, I had this horrible, horrible feeling where I just wanted to die. It's this all-encompassing feeling. It lasts for probably a minute and then goes away. Every single time I would nurse and with every single one of my babies, it has happened. It's just a crazy, crazy thing and the only thing that I've found to help is once I knew what it was, that helped knowing what it was. It's a physiological thing. There's nothing actually wrong with me. My experience with it, I would say, was pretty extreme. I think just realizing that our bodies are so amazing and they serve us so well, but there are differences for everybody. My body clearly has some hormonal glitches just with the C-section and the D-MER and all of these different hormonal chemical things. It was like a perfect storm for the psychosis. I've come to that conclusion. But yeah. The D-MER is really interesting to me because it can also vary with women. I mean, everybody has some. It goes away. For some, it's only with a couple of the kids and for mine, it's just been a consistent thing with each of my kids. Meagan: Yeah and like you said, it's something that not a lot of people talk about, but we have a lot of clients, right? I've been a doula for a while and it's like, “I don't like breastfeeding. It makes me anxious.” They explain these feelings and it's just not really talked about. I don't even feel like a lot of these doctors are saying, “Hey, this is a thing,” either. So when I saw that, I just was like, “Oh, I want to talk about that a little bit. I want her to talk about that,” because it's unique and it's something that does happen. What would you say is one of the things that really has helped you through all of that? How long did you nurse your babies?Brenda: I self-led weaned all of my kids so it ranged from 2-2.5 years maybe. Meagan: Wow. Brenda: My daughter is almost two and we are still weaning. Meagan: Yeah, so do you still have those feelings, or as baby gets bigger and you do it more, does it fade away? Brenda: Yeah. It's definitely more extreme in the beginning when you are producing so much more milk. Yeah. Now that she's older, it would be less, but I still have the feeling like, “Oh, I feel like crap. Okay, my milk is going to come in.” It's so weird. That is one of my coping mechanisms is that I would think of it as, “Okay, I can look at this as a positive thing. I can look at this as a warning that my milk is coming in,” especially in those first few months when you are constantly leaking so I'd be like, “Okay, where is my baby? I need to nurse before I leak all over.” I tried to make this game out of it because there was literally nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to stop nursing. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. So wild. I also just want to talk really quickly before we end about family-centered Cesareans. With my second, I wasn't necessarily wanting another Cesarean. I really wanted to VBAC, but that's just not how the story went. Something that I loved so much was my husband remembered me saying, “If I'm going to have another C-section, I really want to be a part of it.” And so my provider did very similar things and really made me want to be a part of it, and not even to the extent that yours did. I think it's just important for you to know, listeners, that it is okay for you to ask for a different, non-traditional experience in the OR. It's okay to say, “Hey, do you have a clear drape for a delivery? Is it okay for me to pull my own baby out?” Some moms scrub and sterilize their own hands. “It is okay? Let's play music. I want music by my head.” Bring a speaker.I watched it in a mirror and not everybody wants to watch their C-section. I'm kind of weirdly one of those people. I'm weird and I did. I really enjoyed watching it. It felt like I was more a part of my birth watching it. Letting an extra birthing person, a doula, or a photographer be present, cord clamping, or at least milking the cord as long as you possibly can, keeping the vernix on the baby, not trying to wipe them off. There are so many things. There's vaginal seeding and breastfeeding in the OR. I'm going to put this in the show notes. It's our blog about family-centered Cesareans. That will be in the show notes. So if you want to know about more options for family-centered Cesareans, check out the show notes and give it a click because there are a lot of options. Even if C-section is desired and it's like, “Hey, I want this planned C-section,” that's okay too, but there are definitely more ways to make your C-section even more special and gentle, so definitely check it out. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful stories. I think they are amazing. I think they are each unique and I love that through all of them– you were sick. It was more your family. They were like, “You are not normal right now.” But you were following your intuition. You were following your gut and you were like, “Okay, something is different. I need something different.” I just want to say congratulations on all of your births and thank you so much for being with us today. Brenda: Yeah. Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Part 2 with My Doula + Birth Coach Nicole Lakin-Odusanya! I get her perspective on everything from birthing centers, waterbirths, placenta capsules + having sexytime while preggers! Nicole breaks down the design and hormonal process of vaginal birth and lactation, and highlights some of the health benefits of vaginal birth. She shares her tips for getting grounded before birth and surrendering to the transition of active labor. We also get real about what happens if there's a medical emergency and how to create a backup plan with your midwife.   IN THIS EPISODE, WE TALK ABOUT: The difference between a doula and a midwife Nicole's birthing center experience  How having sex near the end of your pregnancy can help induce labor  Confronting the fear of the unknown when it comes to childbirth  An overview of breathing techniques and how they can help during labor  Nicole's favorite part of educating women about alternative childbirth options  PRODUCTS I LOVE: www.MySoulCBD.com Chill caps are my favorite for reducing anxiety!  www.Organifi.com/AngieLee My favorite focus drink, Pure!  RESOURCES: Ina May's Guide to Birth  Ina May's Guide to Breastfeeding     CONNECT WITH NICOLE  Follow Nicole: @womanwwellness  Listen to her podcast, Woman  CONNECT WITH ANGIE Follow me: @angieleeshow  Visit my website: angielee.com  Shop Soul CBD: mysoulcbd.com  SHORT QUOTES Your doula is your labor support, that's going to be your girl who's with you while you're in labor. Your midwife usually doesn't come until you're gonna have a baby. - Nicole    When we leave birth as intended, and as few interventions as possible, that's going to lead to the beautiful natural birth that you want. - Nicole    Being at home, it can be more a flawless journey because you're already in your safest place. - Nicole    We deserve to feel every part of our birth. It's beautiful and might be a little uncomfortable and a little painful for some. But look at all the outcomes that it's actually going to create. - Nicole 

Meet my Doula and Birth Coach, Nicole Lakin-Odusanya! She is incredible at reminding women of their power & helping you tap into your innate feminine wisdom! We get into the nitty gritty of unmedicated vaginal birth, which is something that scares the crap out of me, but I'm so intrigued to learn more! We discuss what it looks like to feel safe in our bodies, feeling empowered during your pregnancy and birthing experience, and some of the benefits of having a water birth.  Nicole articulates what giving birth to her daughter actually felt like, and explains how she rewrote the screaming-crying-tearing narrative that's so often portrayed in media. Plus, she shares her tips for how to get into the right headspace and organically prepare your body for childbirth.  IN THIS EPISODE, WE TALK ABOUT: Techniques to build trust and pain tolerance in your body  Addressing the root of your anxieties and fears around childbirth, and how to create new beliefs  Why the so many doctors are quick to recommend c-sections The reality of medical interventions like Pitocin and anesthesia  Nicole's labor and delivery experience  Why Nicole chose to do a water birth  Shop Soul Chill Caps: mysoulcbd.com  Shop my fav focus drink, PURE: www.organifi.com/angielee     BOOK WE MENTIONED:  Ina May's Guide to Childbirth    CONNECT WITH NICOLE  Follow Nicole: @womanwwellness  CONNECT WITH ME Follow me: @angieleeshow  Visit my website: angielee.com  It's definitely the ultimate surrender to the feminine for us as women. - Nicole I think the number one thing for us to do as women if we're feeling this and we know we want to go more towards the natural way and we know maybe the type of birth we want is shifting the environment that we're around, and what we're listening to. - Nicole  Women aren't getting to experience the full power of who they are 100%. It's the most powerful, empowering feeling ever. It's the highest thing that we can do as women. We're the portal. - Nicole We can shift from pain to intense, and then I think we can shift from intense to uncomfortable. - Nicole I am actually more scared of surgery and doctors, so I think that's also an aspect of why I investigated so much to learn my body and learn my power. - Nicole