Podcasts about vbacs

Abby's two sisters-in-law are expecting babies! In this episode, Abby catches up with Abigail and Addy to chat about all things pregnancy—from early signs to setting limits on personal topics (especially with in-laws). And the sisters have a lively debate about whether it's “cheating” to find out the baby's gender before birth. This episode is sponsored by Wildgrain: Get $30 off your first box plus free croissants in every box when you go to https://Wildgrain.com/unplanned or use promo code UNPLANNED at checkout. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Julie welcomes Sophia from Mexico City, who shares her mental, physical, and spiritual journey towards achieving her VBAC. Sophia discusses the challenges she faced in navigating the healthcare system in Mexico, and what she did to find a truly VBAC-supportive provider. While preparing for her VBAC, Sophia had a hard time finding well-documented VBAC stories from Mexico, so she hopes to inspire other women through her story. Sophia and Julie talk about the role of a mother's intuition in the birth space. Making confident decisions when you feel safe and supported is so powerful!Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Julie Francom here with you today, and I am super excited to talk with our guest today, Sophia. She is from Mexico City, Mexico, and her VBAC story takes place there as well. I absolutely love hearing birth stories from all over the world, so I cannot wait to hear Sophia's story. But before we get started with that, I do have a really short and sweet Review of the Week. This one is from Google. It's a Google review and she says simply, "Great people sharing great information. They make me feel less alone in my journey to a VBAC". I'm so grateful for that review. I think that that is one of the most important reasons why Meagan and I wanted to start The VBAC Link is because our own journeys felt very lonely at times even though we were connected to the birth world and we had a strong birth community, there are certain parts of wanting a vaginal birth after having a C-section that are just very, very lonely. We are grateful for that review. We hope that whoever is listening now also feels a little less alone in this journey because we absolutely love you, and we are so grateful that you are here with us.All right, let's get going. I have Sophia here today. Like I said, Sophia's from Mexico City, Mexico. I'm just going to sit down and be quiet and listen because I have heard lots of really interesting and crazy and cool things about Mexico City, so I'm excited to hear her birth experience there. Sophia is the mother of Luca and Rio. I just said that. I'm just reading her bio right now. She says,  "I'm a Mexican and live in Mexico City." Perfect. She is a passionate advocate for women's rights and strongly believes in the magic that results from women building together, connecting, and supporting each other. Her motherhood journey has been very humbling and healing, and she is obsessed with talking about birth. Me too, girl. I am obsessed with talking about birth as well, so I'm excited to hear your story. I'm just going to go ahead and let you take it away, and we're going to talk.I'm sorry. I said I'm going to let you take it away, but really, I'm going to keep talking for just a second. I loved reading through your story, sharing about your birth team and prodromal labor and the different things that you did to keep labor going and moving along. I am really excited to talk at the end after we hear your story about some different things that you can do to prepare for a VBAC, both mentally, physically and all of the ways. So now for real, I'm going to let you go ahead and share your story with us. Thank you.Sophia: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's truly a dream come true to be here in the podcast. I'm just really honored to tell my story because, when I was starting to prepare for my VBAC, I found it really hard to find well-documented VBAC stories coming from Mexico and in general, from the global South. So I just hope my story helps other women living in similar contexts. So I guess I'll start with the story of my unplanned C-section. So half a year after my husband and I got married, we were ready to have kids. We met on Tinder. We dated for three years, and both of us really had had the opportunity to travel the world and do amazing things. We felt like we had a good pre-kids life, and we were just ready to start a family. I was 34 at the time, and I always wanted to try to get pregnant before I became 35. I got pregnant really fast actually, like the first try. So we were so shocked and excited and surprised. At the time, we were both working remotely in Europe. We were slowly making our way to Australia because my husband is from Australia. This was 2021 and as some of you might remember, Australia was under super restrictive lockdown. No one could come in. No one could get out, so we had not seen his family for three years, and we were just waiting for the ban to lift to be able to go in and spend some time with them. This is an important part of the story because while I was in Europe, especially in Belgium and in Australia, my pregnancy was taken care of by midwives. Especially in Australia, it's really normal that all healthy pregnancies are attended by midwives, and only those special cases or complicated ones are taken by gynecologists. So my pregnancy was a really healthy, enjoyable one. I am one of those women that really loved being pregnant. I was very lucky with both of my pregnancies. But this experience was so influential because in Mexico, although we have this wonderful history with midwives in Spanish called parteras, and that's actually where the use of Rebozo comes from, this practice continues mostly in rural and particularly in indigenous communities. But in the cities, there is a really concerning high rate of unnecessary Cesareans. There's this narrative that C-sections are the easy way out. I would even dare to say, in the 80s, it became sort of a socioeconomic status thing. Women who have access to private healthcare would just opt for a C-section either because their doctor recommended it to do so or because they just thought it was the easy way out. People would say, "Why would you put yourself under unnecessary pain if you can just go get a C-section?" Like it was nothing, right? So actually, most of the women that I know had a C-section, but having the experience with midwives, I decided I really, really wanted to try to have a natural birth. So I started getting informed. I actually work in philanthropy. I work on social justice issues, so I'm very well connected to feminist and women organizations, especially in Mexico City. I remember that there were all of these colleagues working to defend obstetric rights in Mexico City. I knew that they had a really good network of doulas. It was through them that I connected remotely with my doula, Neri Fernandez, who is amazing. We spoke on Zoom, and we clicked right away. She started preparing me for my return to Mexico. The plan was always to come back to Mexico during the third trimester so I could have my baby here. She started preparing me with the reality that it is to have a natural birth in Mexico City. She told me, "Honestly, there are very few truly labor-friendly hospitals and also very few labor-friendly gynecologists. A lot of them are going tell you that of course they're gonna support you in a natural labor, but around week 37 or so, they're gonna suggest going on a C-section by week 39." So, she gave me this list of questions to ask my gynecologist, the one that I had been seeing for the past five years. So she told me, "Once you get back and you go to your appointment, just use these questions for your conversation with him." At the time, I was very naive, so I was like, oh, I'm sure he's going to support me. I'm not worried about that. Anyway, I came back to Mexico, I went to my appointment, and honestly, in the first five minutes, I noticed that he wanted me to have a C-section for no reason. So I was like, oh, my god. Okay. So I told her, "Neri, I really need to contact another service provider." She gave me a list of labor-friendly doctors. And she told me, "There's this doctor whose name is Adriana. She is a gynecologist. But the way that she works is very similar to a midwife, the way that she treats her patients and the way that she respects the woman's body and everything. I think you're really gonna like her, but you should know that she can be a little bit tough. She's a hardcore feminist, and she truly believes in women's capacity to give birth, so she's not going to pamper you." Anyway, I went in. I met her. I loved her right away. She took me, which I was so appreciative, at the time, taking my case because I was already in my third trimester, and things continued to evolve smoothly. I mention this because since I got pregnant really easy, since everything was going smoothly, that's what I thought it was going to be in the case of my birth. I just thought that things were just going to develop like that.Julie: Oh my gosh. Can I just say that I thought the same with my first? I had the easiest pregnancy. I loved being pregnant, just like you, and then all of a sudden, wham-- preeclampsia, induction, C-section, and I was like, what happened? Yeah, anyway, sorry. I just had to add that in.Sophia: I think it happens to a lot of women.Julie: Yes.Sophia: So anyway, week 40 arrived, and there was no sign whatsoever of labor. And one mistake I made is that I told everyone about my due date. I'm an open book. So I told everyone just out of excitement. But then once the due date passed, people started reaching out, like, "Hey, how are you doing? Is baby here yet? Is everything all right?" That really threw me into a bad mental state. I started to get really scared and doubtful. I was just not mentally well at that time. I was just full of fear. I didn't accept it at the time. I was telling everyone that I was fine, but internally, yes, I was in that state. And now also thinking back, I think I prepared myself a lot physically. I have been practicing yoga for 10 years. I was doing a lot of prenatal yoga, etc., but I don't think I prepared myself mentally enough. Anyway, after week 41, Adriana, my doctor said, "I think we have to start discussing the possibility of an induction. Maybe by week 41.3 we can do a very gentle induction unless something else happens." I think two days after we spoke, I lost my mucus plug, so that was exciting, but then nothing was happening. Then we were almost at week 41.5, and she said, "I think at 41.5, I should induce you." But the night before the induction, I woke up in the middle of the night with a very intense feeling. I went into my living room. I sat on my birthing ball, and my water broke like a big gush like the movies. They tell you that's never gonna happen, but that happened to me. Contractions didn't start. But at that time, I didn't realize what this meant. I didn't know that this meant I was actually going to be on a clock after my waters broke. So I was actually very excited. I thought, okay, by tomorrow, I'm going to have my baby. This is amazing. I told my doctor. I told my doula, and they said, "Okay, well, no matter what, just come here to the birthing center."At the time, my doctor had a birth center, and the plan was always to labor there and then go to the hospital when I was closer to giving birth, because I just feel safer that way. And that was the plan with my insurance, etc. So I went the next morning to check me, and I was only at 3 centimeters. So she told me, "I'm going to recommend that you just go back home. Rest. Eat your favorite food. Try not to think about this too much, and when things escalate, just let me know." The problem then is that nothing escalated for a whole day when I went to sleep. And that night, I didn't sleep out of excitement mostly, but I was already feeling some contractions. I mean, I thought they were intense, but little did I know that they were not the most intense part. And then the second night, I also didn't sleep because now I did start getting contractions, a bit stronger ones. So the next morning, I went back into her practice. She checked me, and I was about a 5. And she said, "Things are progressing, but they're progressing quite slowly, so I'm going to give you a tiny dose of Pitocin just to make sure that things keep progressing." I stayed there in the birth center, and I was with my husband, and I was with my doula. And honestly, I remember that day very fondly. My husband and I danced. We used the shower. We used the Rebozo. We just the ball, the peanut ball and everything, but things were not progressing. It was 7:00 PM, and I was only at 7 centimeters, and we were already reaching 40+ hours. And as you know, once your water breaks, I mean, at least in Mexico, they recommend that you have your baby within 48 hours because otherwise you start risking infections. So I told my doctor, "I just want to go to the hospital. I need a change of scenery, and it's just gonna make me feel better." So we went to the hospital. The hospital did have this birth pool. I went into the water and just things stalled. I didn't progress after that. This whole time, they were checking my baby's heart rate, and it started raising a lot, like, scary a lot. It wouldn't regulate. Fear just took over my body, I think. She looked at me and she said, "Sophie, I think I'm going recommend that we go for a C-section." I looked at my doula, and my doula just nodded. I was so tired and so ready to meet my baby that I said, "Okay, yeah, let's go for a C-section." Once I decided that, it was the longest 40 minutes of my life because I thought, "Oh, well, I'm going to get under anesthesia now." But the anesthesiologist took an hour to get there, so I was in a lot of pain. Then we went into the OR, and to be fair, my gynecologist did everything possible to have a gentle Cesarean. We had dim lights. We had my playlist on. The whole focus was on me. Both my doula and my husband were with me. They were holding my hands. But the one thing that makes me sad about that is that I couldn't stay awake. I was so exhausted, so I was just asleep the whole time. I only woke up when I heard my son, Luca, crying. So exactly on week 42, he was born. I just remember someone in the OR yelling, "It's a huge boy." So he weighed 8 pounds, which is not massive, but for Mexican standards, he's really big. And Luca is a Taurus baby. He's determined, he's stubborn, and you cannot pressure him to do anything. He always does everything at his own pace, and this was just the first evidence of that. So anyway, luckily, he was okay. It was a rough recovery because I was just really not prepared for a C-section. It was challenging to get breastfeeding. He had difficulties to latch. It just took me a while to heal what had happened. But the one thing I do remember a lot is that when I was in my room, the doctor and my doula both came in and they said, "Sophie, we just want you to know that you and your baby are amazing. You did everything right. You just had so many things against you. But if you ever want to get pregnant again and go for natural birth, you can do it." That really stayed with me the whole time. So 18 months after Luca was born, my husband and I decided to get pregnant again. Again, we got pregnant the first try. I mention this not to brag about my fertility or anything like that. I know it's a sensitive topic, but for me, it was important because it was the first step to recover my confidence in my body and believe that I could really do this because once I started getting informed about VBAC, I realized that the healing I had to do was more internal. I really had to believe that I could do it. So I decided to stay with the same service providers, with the same doctor and the same doula, because they knew, they really knew my story. Well. And I called my doula, Neri, and I was like, "Hey, Neri, why are you doing this summer? Do you wanna have a baby with me?" And she was like, "Of course." Both my doctor and my doula recommended that I joined maybe like an online community of VBAC women. I had no idea what VBAC was. So then I found The VBAC Link website, the Facebook group. I took the VBAC class for parents. I found it so helpful. And for me, the fact that it was full of hardcore data, it was just so, so important. So in terms of physical prep, I tried to remain active, but I wasn't honestly doing as much yoga as before because I had a toddler. I was working full-time. I was running after my 2-year-old, and I really loved that my doula told me, "Don't get too stressed about working out. Just play with your kid. Play with your kid on the floor. That's going to be enough activity for you." I also really love that this time around, my gynecologist was not even telling me how much I weighed. I really loved that approach. It was just a really, really joyful pregnancy. Again, it was a healthy pregnancy. I did go to the chiropractor this time, which I didn't do last time. I also went to acupuncture sessions, and I did that the last time. I went with the same acupuncturist because I also thought it was good that she knew what happened before. I also took raspberry leaf tea and dates after week 36. So I did all of that physical prep. But what was different this time, I think it was my mental preparation. So as I said, I really, really tried to focus on healing internally, believing in my body, and believing in myself. So with my doula and also using the some of the guiding questions and stuff from the VBAC class, we started mapping out my fears. So she was like, "What are you afraid of?" And I said, "Honestly, I think what I'm most afraid of is that my waters break again before I start labor." So I remember asking in the VBAC Facebook group, "Hey, does anyone know anything about preventing PROM?" Someone suggested taking vitamin C. So I started doing it. And, this time, I felt so much more connected with my body, with my baby, with my intuition. At week 26, my baby was breech. And I remember asking again in the Facebook group, like, "What would you girls do?" And people told me, "You can do Spinning Babies. You still have enough time for baby to get in position, but it's always easier to move a baby when they're still small." So I did Spinning Babies, and my baby turned. So that was amazing. The other thing that is I consider being part of the mental prep is that I was also in a very different space, spiritually speaking. I am honestly not a religious person. I'm not the most spiritual person in the world, but this time I paid attention to a lot of signs. There was this one occasion that I was in my office, we were moving my office, we were moving to another place. And someone hired a shaman. Like a shaman, but it's an indigenous sort of magic priest because we all wanted to do some cleansing, like spiritual cleansing, before moving into the new space. She told me, "I don't do cleansing of pregnant women because it's not good for the baby, but I could give you a blessing". So I was like, "Yeah, of course." So she did this whole ritual. She told me, "You didn't have a natural birth before, did you?" I was like, "No, I had a C-section, but I'm trying for a VBAC." And she said, "I'm really certain that you're going to get it. I'm very sure that that day when you go into labor, your ancestors are going to be with you. I'm certain of it." And she also said, "There's something that characterizes you and has characterized you your whole life, which is having clarity and determination, Sophia, so this is not gonna be the exception." And she gave me this candle, and she told me, "Please, light this up when you go into active labor just to call your ancestors to be there with you." So I was like, "Okay, great." Then also on week 36-37, I had a nesting party. I invited a lot of friends over to help me prepare the house for baby. A friend of mine brought the tarot cards. She told me, "Do you want to pick a card?" And I was like, "Okay yeah, why not?" So I picked a card. That card was the card for strength. It was number eight of the major Arcana that depicts a woman taming a lion through the application of subtle force. That was so symbolic for me because it was strength. The picture really stayed in my head, and I had to think, obviously, about Woman of Strength. So there were all these symbols out there that just really put me in a very different mental state. So anyway, the day I went into labor, it was just one day before my due date. And this time, I didn't tell anyone about my due date. Only my mom and obviously, my husband knew. So one day before the due date, I started getting contractions. I had two weeks of prodromal labor, and I had that before in my first pregnancy, so I knew what it was. I mean, it can be so frustrating because you start getting prodromal labor, but it doesn't escalate, so you get sad. But I knew this time what it was, so I was trying not to pay too much attention to it and just continue with my life. But that day, I started getting real contractions. I knew that what I had to do was to go rest. I did do Miles Circuit. And anyway, I was pretty happy. But then 24 hours after, labor completely stopped. I was so scared of the story repeating itself, so fears started sneaking in. All the doubts. I started thinking, maybe natural labor is just not for me. I was crying. I was sad. I texted my doula and I said, "Neri, I'm just really bummed. I think this is not going to happen. I think I'm going to have a C-section again." She said, "Whoa, wait, I'm going to your house right now." She lives really close to my house. So in 15 minutes, she was here. This was at 8:00 in the morning of the due date, like week 40. And she said, "I think although baby is already engaged," because we knew it was already engaged, "I think it's not in the most optimal position, so I'm just gonna use the Rebozo." And we used the Rebozo. She told my husband and my mom how to use it. That was pretty magical. And then we also did a lot of Spinning Babies exercises. She said, "But aside from this, just try to relax. Everything's going to be okay." That day, I had my 40-week appointment with my doctor. I went and that was a game changer because she checked me, she checked my baby and she said, "Both of you are fine. Everything is okay. Please try to go home and relax. Do anything that makes you get oxytocin." She was like, "Why don't you go and eat or get a bath or eat cake in the bath?" And I was like, "Okay, that's a really specific suggestion, but why not?" So that made me feel much better. And she said, "I do recommend that you call the acupuncturist and tell her what's happening to see if she can give you an extra session." So I called my acupuncturist and she told me, "I'm an hour away from Mexico City because I'm teaching at a university, but I'm on my way there. I'm going to see you because I know you can do this." It was so sweet of her. She drove all the way here, she gave me a session and she told me, "I never do this, but I want to see you again. This was at noon." And she told me, "I want to see you again at night. Come here at 8:00 PM, and I'm going to give you an extra session that is specific to help baby get in a good position and to descend."So I was like, okay. So I went home. I actually came back and went to listen to Meagan's because I remember that she had a story of failure to progress. I listened to that episode. It was so helpful. So then I went back to the acupuncturist at 8:00 PM, and during the session of acupuncture, I felt a super strong contraction. Because what had been happening is that my contractions were intense, but they were really short. They were only 30 seconds. So when I was there, I knew that was a minute or longer. Anyway, after the session, I came back home, and they always recommended to walk after the acupuncture session. I went walking with my husband, and active labor started. It was clear, and it was so intense. It really started every 15 minutes, then every 10 minutes, then 7, then 5. So at 5:00, I texted my doctor and my doula, and they were like, "Okay. This is fantastic. Let's wait until you are 3-1-1." So every three minutes, one minute long for one hour. But I felt like things were going super fast. So I told Neri, my doula, "Can you please come see me?" Because she always told me the timing between contractions and the duration is important, but it's even more important that I see how you're acting. So she came. And in the meantime, my husband was packing the last things to go to the hospital. I also was pretty relaxed in the sense that my mom was taking care of my toddler, so I was really relaxed about that. My husband had become an expert in helping me put pressure in my hips during each contraction. He was packing and helping me, and he was just a rock star. He was offering me water, and he was my biggest cheerleader. Neri arrived, she saw me and she's like, "Okay, it's time to go to the hospital." So I was like, "Okay. So we went into the car." At this time, I was already in a lot of pain. Contractions were so long. They were 1:20, some of them, a minute and a half. It was super intense. I couldn't see anymore. I was just holding to the back seat. I was sitting in the back, just facing the other way. And here is where all the mental preparation really stepped in because I was remembering all of the affirmations that I was listening to. I was remembering all of the stories that I heard. I was also obsessed with watching birth videos. So all of that was going through my head. I love them so much. My dad, who was my favorite person in the world, passed away seven years ago. I could really feel he was there. It was just crazy. So anyway, I was doing all this mental work during each of the contractions while in the car. And this was at midnight, and we were very close to the hospital. The road was blocked, completely blocked by construction. And we were like, "Oh my god." I was in labor land. I was not paying attention to details, but I could hear in the back my husband and my doula getting a bit worried. My doula went out of the car, and I could hear her telling the police guys and the construction workers, "Hey, guys, we have a lady here that's in labor. If you don't let us through, she's going to have her baby here." And it was like, "Wow. Okay." So they opened the road just for us. We went through. We arrived to the hospital. And it's crazy at that time because you only do the few things that you can do in between contractions. I went into the room. This time, it was a different hospital. The room was so lovely. I remember it being a peach color. We had essential oils. We had my playlist. Again, my husband was my biggest cheerleader. Five minutes later, my doctor arrived, which made me feel so much better. And she's like, "I'm going to check you." I was already at an 8. So that was super exciting because it was already past what I had achieved last time, and then my water broke. My doctor said, "Sophie, I need you to look to me in the eyes and listen to me." So I looked at her and she said, "Sophie, this baby has to be born now, so I need you to start pushing." I was still not at 10 centimeters. I think I was 9 or something. But what they didn't tell me at the time is that my water already had meconium, and my baby's heart rate was starting to have some significant declines. But luckily, he was recovering. I was very thankful later on that they didn't tell me all of this because I was just so focused. So anyway, I tried different positions. First, I went and sat down on what we call a Mayan chair. I did all fours. So I think I pushed for an hour or an hour and a half. I just remember it being very magical in the sense just seeing my doctor, my doula, and my husband working together, cheering me, communicating even without words. Everything was just flowing. But still, baby was not being born, and pushing was so much harder than I thought. And also, I guess because I was not at 10 centimeters yet, I was not having the super urge to push, but they were guiding me to do so, and it was really, really great guidance. So finally I went into throne position, which, honestly, was the last position that I thought I was going to give birth in, but it felt all right. I was a second away to give up and to tell them, "You guys, I think I cannot do this." But then I remembered in all of the podcast stories that I listened to that usually when you're at that stage, it is because baby is about to be born. So then my doctor told me, "Sophie, baby is almost here. Do you want to touch their head?" We had decided this time not to know the sex until birth, so I had no idea if he was a boy or girl. I touched the head and that was so, so, so exciting. So I was like, okay. It just gave me another rush of energy. My doula said, "I really think two more pushes, and you're going to meet your baby." So I pushed once. The little head popped out and then it went back in. And then this whole time, they had been telling me to try not to push with my throat, but with my abdomen. But then they said, "This time when you push, push with all of your strength. If you feel like screaming, scream." So I pushed so hard. I screamed. My baby was born at 2:22 AM and baby started crying right away. I started yelling, "I did it. I did it. I can't believe it." And yeah, just for a few seconds, I had no idea if he was a boy or girl because I right away put him in my chest. And then my husband looked and he said, "Oh my god, it's a boy." And yeah, people asked, "So what's his name?" And we said, "His name is Rio." Rio in Spanish means river. And it also stands for the flow of life. I really, really think it really honored the way that he arrived into this world. And honestly, he's a pretty chill and easy going baby. So it was honestly the best day of my life. And later my doula, my doctor and I just, just went through the whole story. And again, we all said, I think my mental and spiritual state of mind was very different. This time was much more positive. I also really felt held by my drive. I had this chat of my all my best friends in this WhatsApp chat, and they were all rooting for me. And also, remember I told you there was this shaman, like this magician priest who told me that I was going to be able to do it? They gave us a candle. My mom lighted the candle when we went to the hospital, and the candle turned off by itself at 2:20 and Rio was born at 2:22. So that was pretty magical as well.Julie: Wow.Sophia: Yeah. And just the last thing I'll say about the story is that also, my gynecologist and my doula were also in a different state of mind. They had had a lot of VBAC experience which was great. And my doula always told me, "It doesn't matter how your baby is born. What matters is the experience, and that you really feel this connection with your baby. But in this case, Adriana told you to push this baby out, and you understood the assignment. You literally delivered your baby, and you had the baby when you were asked to do so, and that in itself is strength." So, yeah, that's my story.Julie: I absolutely love that. Just all of it. What a journey. I'm sorry. I'm trying to figure out where to start. I took some notes as you were talking, and I just think it's so incredible, all of the different things that you did to prepare. I really like what your doula told you during your pregnancy about your personality that you've always had clarity and determination. It was something like that. She said, "Clarity and determination is your personality." I love that because I think sometimes it's easier to advocate and fight and navigate having a VBAC when that clarity and determination is already something that comes naturally to us. It's not something that comes naturally to everybody. It's not good or bad or assigned into a category. It just is. And like me, I'm incredibly stubborn, and I will fight sometimes harder than I should to get the things that I want or desire. And I think that my stubbornness played a huge part in working towards that. Sometimes it's just easier to advocate for yourself when you already have those strong personality traits.Sophia: So yeah, for sure.Julie: But it's okay because you don't have to have those strong personality traits inherently in order to get your VBAC. There are lots of other things that you can do and lots of other things that are on your side as well. I wanted to touch on some of the things that you did to prepare. You took the VBAC class which is amazing. I love our VBAC class. It's really incredible. Lots of good information. I feel like obviously, it's pretty well-rounded and has lots of different characteristics and addresses all of the different learning styles and things like that. Things for the data junkie like me, and things for the people who are more holistic minded, things that are more mentally mental preparation focused, and things like that. You talked about Rebozo, Spinning Babies, and learning how to relax your mind and your body, the positioning of the baby, acupuncture. You hired a very, very good doula and provider who both had lots of VBAC experience. That was also something that was really important to me. I interviewed, I think, like 12 doulas when I was preparing for my first VBAC because I really wanted a doula who had a VBAC herself and supported lots of VBAC families. I don't think it's necessary that to have a doula who has had a VBAC herself in order to have a really solid VBAC doula. I don't think that's necessary, but that's something that was important for me.Sophia: Yeah, for sure. For me, too.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted midwives who had done lots of VBACs, and that was really important to me. Now it's not, like I said, necessary, but it's something that you can put in your toolkit to prepare. So I feel like a lot of times I hear people say something to the effect of, "I tried all the things, and I still didn't get a VBAC or I tried all the things and I didn't get a vaginal birth." And you know what? Some people try all of the things and don't get a delivery method that they want. And some people do literally nothing and have a perfect birth. I want to just tell you that birth is inherently unfair. Sophia: Yeah.Julie: Especially with the way our system is set up to handle pregnant women, and babies, and labor, and all of that stuff. It's inherently unfair. Sometimes you can do everything and have a completely unexpected birth experience, and sometimes you can and do absolutely nothing. My sweet sister-in-law is getting induced tomorrow. She knows absolutely nothing about labor and birth and delivery. She has no desire to know anything. She knows absolutely nothing. She's getting induced tomorrow, and I'm just really trying start hard to stay in my role as supportive sister-in-law when I see some choices that she's making that might influence her birth in a way that she doesn't want, but also, I don't think the outcome really matters to her, to be honest. I just don't think how the baby gets here matters. And that's okay. It is. That is okay. I guess my point of all of this is that you don't have to do all of the things. I feel like some people say, "I feel like I don't want to miss anything." What you need to do is learn about the things that are available to you, and then gravitate towards the ones that resonate well with you. Maybe you don't even care about Spinning Babies or what position your babies in, but you really want to focus on nutrition and getting your mind ready and finding a supportive provider. Cool. Do those things.Sophia: I really tried to enjoy this pregnancy because I only plan to have two kids, so I was like, maybe this is my last pregnancy. I just wanna make sure I enjoy it. I even did a photo shoot with my family and stuff. I just really enjoyed it. I know that for some women, it stresses them to think about all this prep, but for me, this time around, it just made me feel good just being informed and things like that. And honestly, to have a VBAC in a context like Mexico is not a minor achievement. The system is so set-up to just go into C-sections. So yeah, it was just a lot of challenges against me, but I was really lucky that I had really good service providers by my side that were supportive. My doula told me, "When we saw that you had meconium, and we saw that your baby's heart rate was descending, I'm sure any other doctor would have sent you to the OR, but Adriana, your doctor, really believed that you could do it, so that's why she decided to just give you a chance and you did it." That's just really important as well.Julie: Yeah no, I agree. If you want to do all the things, if doing all the things makes you happy and helps you feel prepared, then by all means, do all the things. I don't think you should do nothing. Let me clarify that. I think you should do something, at least one thing. But do the things that really resonate with you. I saw an Instagram post yesterday, I think. I'm trying to find it now. I think it was maybe on the account called Trusting Birth or something like that, but basically it said that there are studies that show-- nope, it is not trusting birth. Dang it. Gosh, dang it. I really want to find it. It was something about how there are studies that show that women when they're pregnant, make smart choices. Okay? They make smart choices. That doesn't mean they go deliver in the hospital and have an epidural. It's not a blanket statement, right? They make smart choices, which means they let their intuition guide them. No, not smart choices. Safe choices. Safe choices. And what is safe depends on the parent and the baby and the pregnancy. When you let women guide their own care and give them options, they make the safe choice. Now, the safe choice is different, like we just said, but the choice that is safest for them at the time. There is a study to back that up. And gosh dang it, I wish that I could find it. I'm literally on my phone right now thinking of all the different accounts it could be. I wonder if I liked it. Dang it. Anyway, if I can find it, I will have Paige, our podcast transcriber, link it in the show notes. I'll send it to her. But anyway, it was really interesting because that's what we've been advocating for all along. Trust in your intuition. Trust your gut. Trust your internal guide. You will make a safe choice. And if that's birthing at home, if it's birthing in the hospital or whatever it guides you to, if it's acupuncture, Spinning Babies, massage, getting a doula, not getting a doula, doing a VBAC class or what VBAC class to do. All of those things are safe choices that you can make for yourself. Now, dang it. I just want to hang out here until I can find it. Sophia: No worries.Can I add one more thing?Julie: Yes, please do while I keep looking.Sophia: Yeah. Talking about the safe choices, I think one of the things that made me feel very safe and allowed me to really focus on the contractions and the pushing is just knowing that my birth team was really on my side, like my doctor, my doula, and my husband. Most women who I know in Mexico have to spend a lot of time advocating for their obstetric rights, so not having to worry about that and just focus on my birth just made me feel really safe and just being able to know that they believed that I could do it.Julie: Awesome. Yes, I agree. I agree. Believing in yourself is a big thing. Granted, sometimes you'll believe in yourself. I think when I say believe in yourself and trust yourself and trust your intuition, it's not trust yourself that you can have a VBAC, although that is very important. That's important. But trust yourself that you will navigate the birth in a way that's safe and healthy for you and your baby, and that might be a repeat C-section. It might be a home birth, an unassisted birth, a hospital birth, but trust yourself that you will be able to guide yourself safely through the birth process whatever that looks like. And guess what? I found the post. I had liked it, and I just had to go into my activity in my Instagram history. It's from an Instagram account called Intentional.Birth. Intentional.Birth. And it says that there's a PhD biologist and doula, Sophie Messager who bridges the scientific and intuitive worlds of birth at the induction equation. So I think maybe that's the induction equation. Oh, I guess I don't know what the induction equation is. Anyway, so the post shows though, it says, "Research shows that women make safe choices. Because of the constant communication between the woman and the baby, women tend to know when something is wrong, and they also tend to know when something is right. Ignoring a woman's instincts is a very stupid thing to do." I like that. Women's instincts tend to know when something is right. I hear that all the time. This is what it sounds like.It sounds like, "Oh, my doctor recommended an anatomy scan at 32 weeks, but I just don't feel like that's necessary." Yeah, it's because you know something's right. Or, "I know measuring for a big baby isn't really evidence-based, but I just think I want to do it." That maybe feels like something is right, the big baby scan or whatever. Or maybe that something's wrong, right? "My doctor brought up inducing at 39 weeks. And normally I would say no, but it just feels like the right thing to do." That is your intuition. Or, "My doctor said maybe we should induce at 39 weeks, but I just don't think that that feels. That doesn't feel right to me." And so you wait. That's your intuition. Like those comments, trust that you know when your baby is safe. You know when something's wrong. You know when something's right even if you can't literally define it. Follow those feelings. They're important, and there is science to back it up.Sophia: That's how I felt when my baby was breech. I had this intuition that I'm going to be able to turn it around and, everything's going to go well, and it did. I love that there's this study backing up the importance of following your intuition.Julie: Yeah. So go check it out. It looks like, it links to the study at Sophie. That's your name? No, you're Sophia.Sophia: People call me Sophie.Julie: So yeah, there we go.Sophia: It's all connected.Julie: Yeah, there we go. It's all connected. Sophie Messager. That's M-E-S-S-A-G-E-R. That is the PhD biologist who is linked with the host. I'm going to follow this lady right now. Transformational Journey Guide for Sacred Shifts. Incredible. All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sophia, for sharing your story with us today. I loved talking with you. It's incredible for everyone birthing in Mexico and Mexico City especially, we know there are a lot of similarities between the United States, but there's also some differences, and different challenges to navigate. So we appreciate hearing your perspective and your experience, and I just really enjoyed having you here with me today.Sophia: Likewise. Thank you so, so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Molly joined us for Episode 84 talking about her unexpected breech Cesarean and first VBAC story. Today, she returns sharing her second VBAC story!Molly shares her powerful journey through loss, IVF, selecting her powerhouse birth team, preparing for different outcomes, post-dates, a multiple-day induction, a beautiful delivery (where her husband caught their sweet baby!), and navigating a placental lobe.Allison, one of our VBAC-certified doulas, joins Meagan as a co-host talking about her work as a virtual doula and the importance of how women are treated during their births. Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. I hope you guys are having a fantastic day or evening and are excited for another episode of The VBAC Link. We have our friend, Molly, today, and she is from central Alabama, and then we also have a co-host today. She's one of our doulas. Her name is Allison. Hello, Allison.Allison: Hi, Meagan. Hi, Molly.Molly: Hi.Meagan: I was going to say, and hello, Molly. Molly: Hi.Meagan: Welcome to the show you guys, and thank you for joining us. Allison is actually one of our doulas. I don't know if you've noticed along the way here and there, we have one of our doulas on as a co-host. I think it's so fun to hear an educational topic from them and then, of course, share where they are at because I truly believe hiring a doula is so impactful. In fact, on Molly's form, that is one of the tips that she gave. Right, Molly? You're like, hire a doula.Molly: Yes, absolutely. It made all the difference this birth.Meagan: Yes. Doulas are incredible. So if you can, hire a doula. Before we get into Molly's story, Allison, I wanted to just turn the time over to you really quick and have you share a little bit more of where you are at. So for the listeners, maybe in your area, they can find you.Allison: Absolutely. Well, listeners, you have a treat because I serve everyone all over the world, globally. All of my work is online. My business name is The Cesarean Doula because I actually support women and birthing people emotionally after having emotionally difficult or traumatic Cesarean births. I do all of my work primarily over the Internet over Zoom. My focus is actually not on birth but on postpartum and on recovering from the feelings of grief, sadness, loss, overwhelm, and confusion that we often have after a Cesarean that's undesired or that goes in a difficult direction. I had one of those. That's what brings me to this work.Meagan: Yes. I love that you mentioned that you're like, this is what brings me here. I think in a lot of ways for doulas, that's what brings us to doing this work is our own experience and wanting to set a different pace and make change. So I love what you're doing. We're recording in 2024, everybody, but hopefully now, it's 2025, and you can go to our website because we're hoping to have a different option for searching doulas where you can actually go and search for online only because we do have a big chunk of doulas that do virtual support. So let's hope that that is the thing. If not, email me and say, "Meagan, get on it. Do this, because I want this option." Okay. Well, Ms. Molly, welcome to the show. You guys, Molly is a full-time mama, a part-time vet technician, and a soccer coach. That is a lot of things all at the same time. Yes. My husband is a soccer coach and just that alone is a lot. Like I said, she lives in Alabama with her husband and her two sons, her mom, and lots of dogs, cats and horses. She said that she also has two daughters in heaven. I'm sure you're maybe going to talk about that a little bit today, Molly.Molly: Yes, it is part of our story.Meagan: Yes. Okay. Well, thank you guys again for being here. In just one moment, we're going to dive in. All right, Ms. Molly. I don't know why I keep calling you that Ms. Molly, like you're a teacher.Molly: It's the song. It'll get you.Meagan: It comes together. Yeah, seriously. Okay, thank you so much for being here and yeah, I would love to turn the time over to you to share all of these stories.Molly: Thank you very much. So if you guys, if you listen to The VBAC Link, I was on a couple years ago talking about my first C-section and then the subsequent VBAC with my first daughter. Unfortunately, a couple years after that, my daughter passed away. And shortly after that, the desire to have another baby was laid on our hearts, and so we decided to try that.For various reasons, that meant we had to go through IVF. We were very lucky in that our IVF journey was short. That's a whole other podcast on its own, the IVF process. We ended up with three embryos, and then in December of '23, we did our first transfer. That one unfortunately failed. And so that's my second daughter in heaven. We did another test after that to see why the transfer had failed and determined that we needed another day of shots. Well, I say we-- me. I needed another day of shots to do the transfer. So in March, we did another transfer with the extra day of shots, and that one was successful. I had the teeniest bit of spotting the next day and just woke up knowing I was pregnant. It was pretty magical, actually. The at-home pregnancy test, seven days after that, was positive. Then the blood tests after that were positive. I did have a little bit of spotting after that which was a little scary. I talked to my doctor, and she upped the progesterone in oil shots I was taking. The amount of those seemed to clear out the spotting. And then we went in for our first ultrasound. I was diagnosed with a subchorionic hematoma, I think is what it's called, which is essentially like a bruise between the placenta and the uterine lining. That cleared up on its own. Fortunately, after that, I was a "normal" pregnancy. We weaned off the IVF shots. My last one was actually on Mother's Day which was a magical little sign. And that's when we dove right into labor prep. We did the Spinning Babies and bouncing on the birth ball. I walked every day. We went back through our birth plan. We tried to cover every single contingency from a repeat Cesarean which wasn't the goal, but we wanted to be prepared just in case. We prepared to labor at home as long as humanly possible. We even prepared to have a car baby. We had a bag with a bowl to catch the placenta and towels and puppy pads just in case we labored at home so long that we had a car baby.We hired a doula this time around. We had originally played around with the idea of doing a home birth, but in Alabama for VBACs, midwives still cannot attend VBACs at home in Alabama. We did find a midwife who was willing to do that for us but because of the restrictions, it wasn't covered by insurance, and that priced it out. So the compromise was that we would do a hospital birth, but I could have a doula this time. We interviewed doulas and found one who's actually certified by The VBAC Link. She's taken y'all's class and she was wonderful. Her name is Jolonda, and she was fantastic. And actually, in the end, my husband said, "I'm so glad we had a doula for me." Not necessarily for me, but for him. He needed her more than I did, and that was pretty cool. We also, this time, instead of going with an OB, went with midwives. They were associated with an OB practice, but we went just to the midwives. That was an interesting and much different experience. It was more like a conversation and less like an exam. We go in, and they would take my blood pressure, and then we would just talk. It was wonderful. She went through my birth plan point-by-point, and then signed it and scanned it into my chart. Anything that wasn't possible, she'd say, "Well, we can't do this because of the hospital we were at, but we can do this or we can try and do this and make that work." She was completely accepting of anything that I wanted to do differently. We decided not to do the erythromycin eye ointment. She said, "Yes." She was fine with that. We delayed, I think, the Vitamin K shot then and the delayed cord clamping. She was all 100% supportive of everything that we wanted to do. I did have to see the OB once just so they could sign off on me being a, quote, healthy pregnancy, and that was a quick in and out. There was a doctor visit, and they said, "Okay, we'll see you back in a couple of weeks." I said, "No, I'm going to go back across the street to midwives. I'll see them in a couple weeks." So that was all. My pregnancy really in itself was pretty normal. And then we got closer and closer to my due date. Now, I was due on November 18, and we got closer. I stopped working as a veterinary technician on the end of October right before Halloween. We had our baby shower. We were getting close to all the guess dates. Everybody had guessed when your baby's going to come. I would text them, "Nope, you missed it. It wasn't today." And so we slowly passed all those days, and then we passed my due date. We were doing everything-- the tea and bouncing on the birth ball and the dates and the pineapple, walking, The Miles Circuit, curb-walked. I knew the closer we got to 41 weeks and 42 weeks even, the more that there was going to be pressure for a repeat Cesarean. Now, to my midwife's credit, she never mentioned a repeat Cesarean. That was the very last thing that she ever talked to us about. We had talked about it in our birth plan, of course, but as we passed the due date, she didn't mention that as a course of action. As a joke, we asked our son, "When do you think Mama will have the baby? Now that we're past our due date, when do you think Mom will have the baby?" And he said, "I think she's going to wait until December." I said, "Buddy, please don't put that on me." So we'll let you know how that goes towards the end.Meagan: Yeah, I mean that would be what, two and a half more weeks? Three? Yeah, two and a half more weeks.Molly: Yeah, it was a long time. And I said, "Bud, please don't put that on me. That's a long more time." So then we made it through Thanksgiving. I consented to a cervical check at 39 weeks and there was no action the cervix, but you and I know that that can change in an instant, and it's not an indicator of anything. Meagan: Nope.Molly: At 40 weeks, I consented to another check and to a sweep of the cervical membranes. That made me feel crampy but really didn't do anything. We started talking about induction at that appointment. We talked about starting with the Foley bulb over breaking the waters or maybe Pitocin. We talked about those options and which ones I was most comfortable with. And so then after the 40-week appointment, they sent me in for a biophysical and non-stress test, and we passed those with flying colors. No problem. Baby was fine, I was fine. She just was very, very comfortable. Then at the 41-week appointment, we did another sweep and this time I was dilated to a really tight 1. But again, that didn't really do anything. We made our next appointment for 41 weeks and 3 days. And the ladies in the front office said, "We hope we don't see for that appointment." And I said, "I hope you don't either," but we did see them for that appointment. So at 41 weeks and 3 days, we talked about the induction again. They did another sweep just in the hope that maybe it would start things. It didn't. So we talked about and scheduled the induction. We'd agreed to start with the Foley and see how that went, and then maybe talk about breaking waters and maybe, maybe Pitocin being our last resort. We stopped for dinner. That was Wednesday evening. We stopped for dinner on the way in because I was like, "We're going to have a baby, and I need my strength. I've got to eat before we go in." So we stopped for dinner, and we got checked in. They got me strapped in with a wireless monitor, which was new this time and was so much better than the wired monitor because I could move. It was much better. And this is the start of what we like to jokingly call birthatory, because it's birth purgatory. I was stuck there in the room. I couldn't leave. My husband left just to get us food, but it just felt like we were there forever with nothing to do. And time moved strangely as well. I watched Friends at night to help me sleep, and I watched Parks and Rec during the day to keep me entertained. We did a lot of walking up and down the room as much as we could. And that Wednesday evening was just to start us monitoring. Jolanda came in, and she was in and out and checking with us that night. They also started me on the Group B strep meds. I think I forgot to mention I was positive this pregnancy. I had a weird reaction to whatever med they put me on first, like my scalp was on fire. It was a really bad reaction. Meagan: Interesting. Is that a common reaction?Molly: I believe they said it could happen, but it's not super common. I wish I could remember which medicine it was they gave me. But, I mean, it felt like my scalp was on fire. I was itching. It was horrible. So they gave me some Benadryl which fortunately helped me nap, so I got some rest. But we didn't want to do too much of that, so they switched me to a different medication. And again, I wish I could remember the name of it, but I can't. And that, I did not react to, so we stayed with that one for the rounds of the Group B Strep meds. So that was Wednesday night, and they were really just monitoring me. Thursday morning, the OB and the midwife on call came in to discuss my case. They discussed options. Pitocin. I consented to a check because we were going to start with the Foley, but I was at a 3 already. So that put the Foley out of commission because the Foley will only work up to 3. We talked about Pitocin versus artificial breaking of the membranes. The OB did do a little bit of pressuring, but we were all prepared for it. He said, "Well, at this point, this many post dates, you're probably definitely going to have meconium." And behind his back, my doula, my sweet doula rolled her eyes. It was what I needed, that support in that moment for the doctor to say, "Oh, well, there's definitely meconium." And my doula would be like, "No, there's probably not." So we asked for time to discuss between us and what to do. And Yolanda had these little informational cards with different affirmations. There was affirmation cards, but different, like facts about, induction from-- oh, I'm blanking.I can't remember. But they were little printed out laminated cards with different facts about different types of induction, and they were really helpful.It's Evidence Based Birth. That's what it was. It was all evidence-based and backed up by studies and stuff. So we discussed what we wanted to do, and we agreed to breaking the waters on Thursday morning. So the midwives came in and broke my waters, and there was no meconium. So that doctor can just go sit somewhere else. My waters are broken. I walked up and down the room, but nothing really happened. That night, there were some surges that we did time, but they petered out, and nothing really happened. So we woke up Friday morning, and that was December 1st. I, with despair in my voice, looked over at my husband and I said, "It's December. We've made it to December." I felt like a balloon that was beyond needing to pop and was just discouraged and tired. I was at the end of my rope, really, honestly. They came in, and I agreed to another check. This was the first check that they'd done since they broke my waters. And so if you're keeping count at home, my water's now been broken for about 26 hours. We happen to be watching an episode of Friends where the character, Rachel, is in labor, and she's having trouble dilating as well. And Ross makes a joke about, "I'm dilated 3." Well, they did the cervical check and checked, and I was still dilated 3. And Michael goes, "I'm dilated 3," and everybody laughed. It was a good break in the tension. After that, they left to go discuss my case. Michael went to go get me some hot water so I could make tea. But he came back in and he said, guess who's here and looking at your chart?" And I had no idea. He said, "It's Vicky," who's the midwife who helped deliver my first VBAC baby. She had retired, but come out of retirement and was only working on the weekends in the hospital. And I looked at him. I said, "We're having a baby today." Just something told me that with Ms. Vicky there with us, we were in good hands, and we were going to be okay. So she came in and talked to me about starting Pitocin. She also told me, because at this point, I was worried about a repeat Cesarean. And she told me, she said, "I'm no longer looking at you as a VBAC patient. You've had a successful vaginal birth. I'm treating you just like any other birth now." And it was such a healing statement for me. It wiped the worry about a repeat C-section out of my mind. It was just the perfect thing to say.Meagan: Yes. I don't want to interrupt you too much, but I love that you pointed that out, because most providers, they're actually looking at no matter if you've had a VBAC or not, you're always a VBAC. But what you just said to me really is gonna connect with so many others. It connected with me because we just want to be viewed as someone going in and having a baby. We don't want labels and these things that loom over our head even if we've had a VBAC before or if we haven't had a VBAC before. We just want to be looked at and treated as someone coming in and having a vaginal birth just like anybody else coming in and having a vaginal birth. So I love that you pointed that out, and I'm sure that that really did just connect and feel so good.Molly: It was a huge release of stress knowing that I didn't have to worry about the repeat C-section, the VBAC anymore, and I could just focus on having the baby and what I was doing and just doing what we needed to do that day to have the baby.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: So we did agree to the Pitocin she suggested. And we got very into the details, and we're almost a year out. I should have written them down sooner. I can't remember the numbers we started at, but she wanted to start at a certain amount over a certain time, and I disagreed. I said, "Let's start lower and slower." And she said, "That's fine. I'll do whatever you want to do." So we started really low and really slow, and I was starting to feel some things, but still not very much. It wasn't anything I had to stop to get through. It was really more just like a tightening. Jolanda came to hang out with us, brought us more food and water, and she brought a puzzle to help distract us. We were going crazy being stuck in that room. Vicky came in later that afternoon, and because still no progress was really being made. They didn't check me, but they could just tell from the contractions on the monitor. She talked about wanting to up the Pitocin a little bit faster and more frequently. I told her that I was worried about the difference in the Pitocin contractions versus natural contractions because I had heard and read so much that the Pitocin contractions are much more intense. And she told me that she'd given birth with and without Pitocin, and the only difference for her was that Pitocin births were faster. I agreed for her to bump it up a little bit, a little bit faster, that. After a little bit of time to talk about it, we agreed to do that. They did check me at that point, and I had worked my way up to a 5, and baby had moved from a -1 to, I believe, a +1. We dilated some, and baby had descended a little bit. At that point, the contractions did start to pick up, and I lost interest in the puzzle. We turned a movie on for me to watch. They were a little bit more intense, but still easy, and I could still talk through them and walk through them. Jolanda did an excellent job. She reminded me to go to the bathroom. And so I went to the bathroom, and when I walked out, I felt the baby drop. I don't know any other way to explain it, but I felt her drop in the birth canal. It was like she was sitting high, and then suddenly she dropped. I said that. I said, "Oh, I felt the baby drop." My sweet doula said, "You felt the baby drop?" I couldn't respond to her because then a contraction hit so hard that I could not talk through it. So, at that point, I told them, I said, "Please turn the movie off," because I couldn't handle the sound of movie. My husband turned on music in the background real low of our birth playlist. I needed to get down on all fours, so I got down on my knees, and I was bent over a birth ball swaying back and forth and moving forward and backwards, swaying my hips and vocalizing through them. Keep your mouth loose and low, moaning through them. At some point I didn't need the ball anymore and Jolanda brought in this inflatable thing. It was U-shaped and it was inflatable, but you could be in it and lean over it. And again, I wish I remember the name of it, but it wonderful because you could inflate and then deflate it to move it and get it out of there. But it was just perfectly shaped for me to be able to lean over it and even sit on it if I needed to, but I just was leaning over it. The contractions were getting more difficult, and she reminded me to relax my hands because my hands had gotten really tight. She was reminding me to breathe and relax my hands. She also suggested counter-pressure on my tailbone. I did not want it on my hips, but she tried it on my tailbone, and that felt incredible. Suddenly, the contractions were so much easier to bear, and they just felt more productive. It was fantastic. So she and my husband, Michael, took turns wearing their arms out, pushing my tailbone through the surges. At, that point, then the wireless monitor got weird because it had been on me for so long. The stickers, I guess, had just given out. So a poor nurse was on her knees underneath me holding the monitor on my belly, and there was either Jolanda or Michael behind me pushing on my tailbone through the contractions. And then I started grunting and felt pushy. Juolanda recognized my grunting because we talked about during my consult during my first VBAC. I get grunty when I'm pushing. She recognized the sound and she said, "Are you pushing?" But I didn't want to answer her because I didn't want to stop pushing because it felt so good to push. I hadn't been checked. So I didn't want them to know that I was pushing and check me and tell me that I couldn't push. And also, at this point, I was practically sitting back against the counter-pressure. The surge would hit, and I would sit back into whoever is doing counter-pressure and practically put my full weight back on my tailbone on their hand and the counter-pressure. Then, my knees got tired being on the floor. So I asked to move to the bed and they asked to check me. The midwife, Ms. Vicky, said, "I would love to check you right now." I said, "As long as I can be on my hands and knees, you can check me however you want."So I got up on my hands and knees on the bed, leaned over, and they checked me, and I was good to push. So at that point, we started actively pushing. Not just me pushing because it felt good, but pushing because we knew we were pushing a baby out. And pushing, it felt so good to push. I needed to push. It felt so good. I could feel her moving through the birth canal. I could feel her head coming down, and it was amazing. And just like with my first birth, it's frustrating to feel the baby move and then go back and then move forward and then go back, but you can tell you're making progress. I don't know how long I pushed for because I was way off in who knows where. Nobody else looked at the clock. Michael would have, but he was getting ready to catch. He had prepped to catch this baby. So I pushed her out into her papa's hands. He had prepped. He watched all kinds of videos meant for midwives, and he was so ready. He did such a great job. Baby Nora was there, and she was perfectly healthy. She was 7 pounds and 2 ounces, and 19 inches. For being 41 weeks and 5 days, she was still just perfectly cooked. I passed the placenta at some point after that. We did the golden hour, and we snuggled in. He cut the cord after it stopped pulsing. That was all very much a blur to me, just a golden, snuggly haze of love. So we passed the placenta, and it was declared complete. We looked at it, and we put in our little cooler to take home and freeze to plant her little birth tree. I did tear a little bit, so they stitched me up and we took some pictures. And then Ms. Vicky went home. She'd stayed 45 minutes late for us. She went home at that point, and I started nursing Nora. At that point, however, I was still in pain. So they said, "Would you like something for pain?" I asked for just Tylenol. I didn't want anything heavier than that, but I was still pushing. I was still feeling the urge to push, and it was getting worse. So the nurses applied some pressure to my uterus, external pressure. It hurt so bad I could barely stand it. Michael took the baby at that point, and Jolanda suggested me trying to avoid my bladder, and maybe that would help. But I couldn't. I couldn't get those muscles to work, so they put a catheter in. That didn't really help. The surges were still coming and I couldn't stop pushing. They put more pressure on my uterus, external pressure, and I passed a huge blood clot. It was like a softball-sized blood clot. That felt a little better, but I was still pushing and I could not stop the pushing. So they gave me some stronger pain meds and talked to the OB who was on call and all agreed that I needed to go the OR and see if something had been left. So we agreed to that and went under sedation into the OR, and they removed a golf ball-sized portion of the placenta. Meagan: Whoa.Molly: Yeah. It was confusing because they had declared my placenta complete and after talking about it, and they looked at all the pieces, and it turns out that I had a lobular lobe.Meagan: I was going to say you probably had a lobe.Molly: Yes. And so after I mentioned "Oh well, I had some spotting early in pregnancy," they figured that the spotting had contributed to that, and that's why the placenta looked complete and there was a lobe and the hematomas all contributed to the early bleeding and the lobe in the placenta. I came out of the OR fine. I got two bags of blood but felt fine. When I woke up, I got to hold Nora in the OR. Well, not in the OR, but in the recovery and nurse her again. And everything was really fine after that. Jolanda checked on us a couple of hours after that. She brought us food. We had talked about what I wanted to eat post-birth. I wanted to eat a cheeseburger with bacon from a specific place near the hospital with fries. She brought it all, and we ate it at like 11:00 PM. It was wonderful. And Michael, like I said before, said later that having a doula this time around was 100% worth it mostly for him because she was suggesting things that he wouldn't have known to offer like the counter-pressure and, "Hey, maybe she needs to pee," and things like that. It saved him and helped him know what to do while I was off in labor land. For that, our sweet doula was so worth it. And after that, recovery was great, and we were fine.Meagan: That is awesome. So still had a little bit of a hiccup there in the end, but overall a really great experience.Molly: It was awesome. And I said before, with the birth plan, we tried to plan for all contingencies, but the one thing we did not plan for was three days trying to be induced naturally. Meagan: Yeah.Molly: I mean, they say time isn't linear, and I have never felt that more true than we were stuck in that room for three days. It was very weird just not being able to get out. It's not something I would do again, the induction part, but we made it through thanks to great support from midwives and doula and my wonderful husband. I would do the birth part, and maybe not the hemorrhaging at the end, but the birth part I would do again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's just less ideal. I don't know. Did they ever talk to you? Because I know that IVF parents do have a slightly increased chance of hemorrhaging. Did they ever relate it to IVF, or was it mainly just, "Hey, you had a subchorionic hematoma earlier, then you have this lobe." Maybe it was just that they.Molly: The doctors didn't. No, we were very aware that she was an IVF baby, and we had done a lot of research before that IVF babies have a very "sticky" placenta.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: That was one of the factors why we didn't do a home birth was because if the placenta sticks, and then you're at home, it can be a rush to the hospital. But the doctors at the hospital didn't mention the IVF possibility as the reason I hemorrhaged. Maybe it played a part. I don't know. They seemed to put it on the sub-chorionic hematoma. But it could have been both. I don't know.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. All of the little factors could have been. The best thing is that it seemed pretty minor and a quick fix. A quick fix. I just wanted to remind everybody, so I'm pretty sure this is your episode. It's Episode 84. So if you want to go hear the breech Cesarean and the first VBAC, definitely go back and listen to those on Episode 84. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and I'm so glad that it was so great and that your husband got to catch a baby. That's like my favorite, you guys.Just to let you know, that's happening more and more. At least it has been here in Utah as we're attending births. Sometimes, all you've got to do is ask. So if you have a partner who is interested in that, I think asking is not harmful. Just ask. It can seem intimidating, but it's not too bad. It's not too bad. They really help these partners catch these babies. Allison, I would love to have you share your two cents and your educational topic on healing after Cesarean. We're doing these topics instead of reviews sometimes when we have guests. I love what you do because just like Molly and myself, we've been there having an unexpected-- well, maybe with the breech it was kind of planned. I'm trying to remember back in your story.Molly: So with the breech, with the Cesarean, we had planned a C-section, but then he broke my water early, so it was not necessarily an emergency Cesarean, but we had to go in before we were "scheduled" to for the C-section.It was planned, but unexpected at the time. The wrong timing. Yes. Okay. Well, tell us more, Allison.Allison: Yeah, and I want to say thank you so much, Molly, for sharing your story. I actually want to point out a few things that I think are really important here. I work with so many people who have had a birth that feels difficult or traumatic. And oftentimes, there are women who come to me who say, "I don't understand why I feel upset about my birth even though I have this baby who's healthy and alive, if we're lucky enough to have a living baby or a healthy baby or both." And one of the things I talk a lot about is that oftentimes it's not the events themselves in the birth that create a difficult or traumatic birth, but it's how we feel, right? And so, what makes a birth feel good or bad? Like, I listen to you talk about this experience where you had some challenges leading up to it, right? Especially preconception, and then during conception. I felt your joy. I felt your connectedness, and I felt your power throughout your story even as you talked about the really difficult part at the end with the placenta needing to be retrieved. I want to just point out that that's what I heard, and you've got to tell me if this feels right for you, Molly. But what I heard was many moments where you talked about feeling connected. You talked about your sweet doula. You talked about that surprise midwife coming in to support you. You felt connected. You felt seen like that moment where you said, "Oh, well, the monitor wasn't working, but then the nurse got underneath me," so instead of actually you accommodating the hospital's protocol and policy, I love this idea. I'm imagining a nurse laying on her back under you while you're on all fours. You're empowered. That's truly centering you. Right? You're in control in a lot of these moments. You said you wanted the Pitocin lower. The doctor or the midwife honored that. It sounds like you were informed. You used some examples of the cards from Evidence Based Birth, and a lot of the information you engaged with prior to birthing. One of the things I talk about with my clients is maybe you even feel sexy during birth. You didn't mention that at all, but that might have been. There might have been moments, maybe not. Are there any other emotions that come up for you? Did I leave anything out hat you're like, oh, I really felt another positive emotion?Molly: No, you've nailed it 100%. I felt very supported this birth from the midwife listening to me and, like you said, honoring my requests and my husband being there and the doula. I felt very supported. So even the end and the hemorrhaging which should have been scary, I don't look back on as scary. I don't want to repeat it, but I wasn't scared in that moment because I felt taken care of and supported.Meagan: Mhmm. Allison: Right. That is so textbook. I love this story because that's a really, really scary thing. And if you hadn't had that support, that attunement, that communication and that safety, it could have felt different. It could have made your story feel like there was this turning point into a dive. I love that your advice was getting a doula, because in your story, I really feel how your relationship and respect for her are a big component of your support and empowerment. So I just want to end by saying that birth is really about those emotions, not the modality or even the environment where we birth. If we can create those experiences for ourselves as much as possible, we don't always have the ability to do that. Lots of things have to come together, but if we can focus on, how do I make myself feel empowered, connected, sexy, seen, in control, informed during my birth, however I birth, then the likelihood of having a positive outcome emotionally is so much higher. And when we have a better emotional experience, we're more likely to be able to have a supported breastfeeding experience and also go into motherhood feeling centered, feeling capable of taking on this new role or another baby when we already have littles at home. So thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel really touched, and I can imagine that others are too.Molly: Thank you.Meagan: I do love that you pointed that out, Allison. The way we feel during our labor, the way we're treated, the way we're communicated to, it really impacts that next step going into that motherhood era. I think back on your story. I remove your doula from your story, and I remove your supportive provider. That birth very much could have unfolded very differently especially because it was a longer induction. Right? And so when you put that powerhouse team with that true love and support back into the story, it's like, well, I don't understand why it wouldn't unfold that way anyway.But really, if you look back without that, it's questionable sometimes. And so we talk about it, you guys. I think I will probably talk about it until I die. I mean, truly, I will probably not even be in this work when I'm 80 years old, but I will still be educating people on hiring a supportive team and provider because it really does impact. I had an interview the other day with a first-time mom and she was telling me who her provider was, and I very much remember this provider as a resident. And she was fine, but not great, right? She wasn't my favorite. I very much knew, oh, in the future I would not suggest her as a provider. And so as I was talking, and I didn't want to project my opinion on her, and I was talking to her, she said that her and her husband had actually been feeling a lot of pressure and that when she goes into her visit that she normally has a voice, but when she's there, her voice is muted. She feels like she can't say these questions and can't communicate. I think right there is that big red flag that if you cannot communicate with your provider in a prenatal appointment, then that is a big sign that you will not be able to communicate with your provider efficiently during labor, and they're not going to respect you. I love that your midwife came out of retirement and started working on the weekends because she probably loves this so much and that you got her. It worked out so, so well. But guys, again, find a good, supportive provider. If you're feeling like my interview did the other day, don't hesitate. Move, change, find that support because you want to be like Molly where you're in the situation and you feel that love and empowerment. And even though there was something that ,went awry and not according to plan, Molly felt that support. And so like Allison said, that could have been a very traumatic point in your labor where it wasn't ideal. You wouldn't do it again. You wouldn't choose it. You wouldn't suggest it. But even though it happened, and I don't want to downplay it like oh, least everyone's happy and healthy. I don't want to do that. But it happened, and because you had that support, your overall view is different. So great tips, Allison. Beautiful story, Molly. Again, go back and listen to Episode 84 for the rest of her stories. And once again, thank you for being with us.Molly: Thank you so much for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this special episode, Kristin, host of Ask the Doulas podcast and founder of Gold Coast Doulas,  gives tips on building your supportive birth team. Krisin and Meagan talk specifics on HOW to switch providers if you're feeling the push to do so.Once we have our dream team, we're good and don't have to do any more work, right? Nope! We keep educating and preparing ourselves. That's the way to truly get the most out of that dream team. Kristin's book ‘Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby' is a one-stop shop where you can get all of the education you need for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. Her advice is so valuable for VBAC moms and birth workers, too!Supported: Your Guide to Birth and BabyAsk the Doulas PodcastNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Hello. We have a special episode for you today. We have my friend, Kristin, who is actually the owner of Ask the Doulas Podcast on with us today. She is going to be talking about establishing our birth team and the importance of it. We're going to talk a little bit more about what to expect when we might not find a provider that's supportive and how to navigate it. She's going to talk more about her book and so many things. You guys, I'm really excited. Kristin is a woman who has always had a passion for supporting other women both personally and professionally. In college, Kristin served on the executive committee of her sorority and organized events on campus related to breast cancer and other women's issues. After the birth of her daughter in 2011, a new passion awoke within her. Kristin began reading and studying birth from all perspectives, philosophies, and medical approaches. She joined organizations like The Healthy Kent Breastfeeding Collation and used her event coordinating skills to build and promote the organization and create community awareness. You guys, she has done so many incredible things. Kristin's research has led her to learn more about doulas, and in 2012, she hired doulas herself for the support of her second birth. The level of compassionate care and comfort that she received from her doulas ignited a spark within her and led her down the path of becoming a doula herself. And man, can I connect to this because this is exactly what happened to me. When you guys have a doula who inspires you and touches you and motivates you the way it sounds like Kristin did and I did, even though my doula wasn't a hired doula, she was just a nurse that was a doula for the time being, it does something to you. She earned the certification and became teaching sacred pregnancy classes in 2013. But as you'll see, Kristin is a firm believer in achieving the highest level of education available when providing a service. Shortly after, she earned the following credentials-- you guys, are you ready for this? She's amazing. Oh my gosh. Certified Sacred Doula in 2014. She is a Certified Elite Labor through ProDoula. She is the Elite Postpartum and Infant Care Doula through ProDoula. She's trained in Spinning Babies, Newborn Specialist, Mother Ship, Certified Health Service Provider, certified in VBAC. She is certified in transformational birth and a birth coach for the Birth Coach Method. She is a certified pregnancy and infant loss advocate and certified gift registry expert through Be Her Village, who we will talk about. We both love them so much.She is also an author of a book which we will be sharing more about. It's called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. So without further ado, we are actually going to be skipping a review today and an educational topic because this is such a great episode to be educated and learn more about what Kristin is offering in her community. Okay, my love. Hello. Kristin: Hello.Meagan: We're officially getting going talking about this amazing topic. Tell me what you think about this. I think sometimes people want to assemble this dream team, but they let finances or even partners or other opinions get in the way.Kristin: Yes. Partner comfort level, especially with VBACs is key, or with clients of mine who want their dream is to have a home birth and their partner isn't supportive, so then they say, "Oh, it'll be with the next baby if everything goes well in the hospital." But then if they're a complication, they might risk out of the option of home. I think as consumers, we don't fully appreciate the ability to choose all of our birth and baby team. We can change providers. I switched providers with my first pregnancy early on because I didn't feel like that particular OB was on board with my plans to have an unmedicated hospital birth. I ended up switching to Certified Nurse Midwives and completely changed practices, completely changed hospitals in fact. It's a lot. Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: But it was worth it. And I had the time where it was easier to switch, but I've had clients switch very late in pregnancy. It was harder to find the right office to accept them, but with VBACs, it is crucial to have not just a VBAC-tolerant provider, but someone who is fully on board with your unique desires because we are all individuals.Meagan: Yes. I love that you said your unique desires. Everybody is different. I think it's really important to tell these providers what your desires are. We have a list of questions that we give people in our course and, of course, on the podcast. You can go down that list and check and be like, "Okay, this provider seems pretty supportive," but you guys have to tailor your questions and your provider. You have to tailor it to what your individual unique circumstances and desires are because everyone's is different. I would love to know. You said, I was realizing that this wasn't the right place. What kind of things were you hearing or being told or feeling when you were realizing that maybe your first provider wasn't going to be as supportive and in line with your unique decisions?Kristin: Just when I was talking about my wishes, I could tell that that particular provider liked structure and patience to get that epidural, and so once I started talking about movement, delivering in different positions and some of the things I had researched-- I hadn't yet taken a childbirth class because it was early in pregnancy, but I had done a fair bit of research before knowing what a doula was. I didn't hire doulas until my second. But I could just tell in that gut feeling which I rely on. Again, we're all unique. And yes, I do research, but I make decisions on am I comfortable spending my entire pregnancy with someone who can tolerate me and will say, "Okay"? But I could tell it didn't light her up. So once I found a practice where my nurse-midwife spent time with me, I had longer appointments, I could ask questions, and she was 100% on board with me, and then I was able to meet the other midwives and the OBs who oversaw them throughout the remainder of my pregnancy. I felt very cared for. And again, we are consumers. Whether your insurance pays for everything or you're paying for part of it, you don't get a do-over of your birth, and so it is so important, especially with that first birth to get the care team that aligns with you. That could be everything from a Webster-certified chiropractor, a physical therapist, a mental health therapist to deal with any anxieties that may come up with having a VBAC and getting a lot of fear-filled advice from friends and family members. I find that again, my clients are all unique individuals, and my students in Becoming a Mother Course, and now the readers in my book, have different goals, so I want them to choose the best plan for them. I love that you have worksheets and templates, but knowing that every situation is different whether it's a home birth, a trial of labor, or a hospital birth, that setting is different and the type of provider whether it's a nurse-midwife or an OB practice, how likely is the OB that is very VBAC-supportive going to be attending your birth? Are there 12 providers or are there only 4? And so there's just so many things to factor in when deciding what is important to you.Meagan: Yeah. That point that you just brought up, are there 12 providers? Are there only 4? Does your provider guarantee that they'll be there? These are things that I think a lot of people may not be aware of that because they found their provider. They're feeling good about their provider. They're jiving. They're having the feels, but then they may not be the ones to be there, so there are 11 other options. It feels overwhelming to be like, "Wait, wait. Do I interview all 11?" Yeah, guys. Yeah. You set up visits. It's okay. Go and see if you can meet with those. Make sure that that full team is aligned. It is a lot. That's a lot to take on, but it's okay to rotate and say, "Hey, I saw Dr. Jack last time. I'd like to see Dr. Joe this time," or whatever it may be. Really, really dive in, find out more about your provider's team if they have a team, and make sure that they align with your unique decisions and desires.Kristin: Absolutely. And that goes for doulas as well.Meagan: Oh, yeah.Kristin: So for VBAC clients, I, over the last couple of years, I do all of the matchmaking, I like to call it, between client and the birth doulas and postpartum doulas on my team, in fact. I like to find out what they're looking for. If they are attempting a VBAC, then many times, they're telling me they want a VBAC-certified doula. I have doulas that have gone through your program and are certified through you and other different VBAC trainings. They're not just wanting VBAC experience like in my early days of having Gold Coast Doulas. Now, they're wanting that certification because they know that information is being updated as things change. And there's more evidence for VBACs. They also want more than just, "Oh, I've attended four VBACs." They want the education behind it. So I think that is crucial. I'm not going to match, unless there's no one else available on my team, a client with someone who is not certified as a VBAC doula.Meagan: Yeah, I do the same thing with my group here where they're like, "This is really important to me. I want this specific type of doula." Some of my doulas have taken The VBAC Link course. And so I'm like, "Yep, this would be who I would suggest." But I also want to point out that even if you assemble your dream team doula, and they've got all the education and information on VBAC, and they're up to date, I want to just point out that it doesn't mean that you shouldn't inform yourself that you shouldn't get the information because sometimes I feel like it's easy to want to just hire your provider or your doula or your person and let them who know VBAC kind of help and guide you. But it is really important. You're doing yourself a disservice if you personally do not learn more about VBAC and your options as well and rely only on your provider or your doula.Kristin: 100%. The doula, I mean, unless you're paying her for it, will not be attending every one of your prenatal visits during pregnancy. The education that you have to make informed questions and decisions surrounding your birth plan or birth preference sheet, so those conversations are critical. The more information you have as a patient, the better. And as we all know, unless you're having a home birth, your visits are short even with a nurse-midwife. And so it's important to have those questions and to have time to really express concerns. Or if you're finding that that practice or that provider is not in line with your plans, then you can look at other options. And the hospital-- are VBACs even allowed at the hospital that you plan to deliver at? Are they going to induce? What are the Cesarean rates? And looking at all of the different options, and if you need to consider NICUs, that's always a factor in hospital selection as well.Meagan: Yeah, I'm going to kind of go back to where we were in the beginning where you realized based after your feelings and other things that this provider was not the right provider for you, you then changed to CNMs and had a much better experience. Can you discuss your process of that change? How did you change? Did you find the CNMs, have them request your information from the OB? Did you do a formal breakup with your OB? What suggestions would you give to someone who is wanting to do that? I know that sometimes, you were talking about it, in the end, it's a little harder to find, so that's why we stress so importantly to find your provider from the beginning. But we know that sometimes things change. So can you kind of talk about that process in then assembling that dream and getting the steps to get to that dream team?Kristin: Yes. So for me, I had asked friends about which providers they had worked with. So the original OB, a friend of mine, it was her doctor, and she had a great experience. I just wasn't feeling it. She had a student. We have teaching hospitals in my area, so there was a student in the room. I wasn't feeling like she was 100% on board. I could tell that she was very medically driven. I wanted essentially a home birth in a hospital. So I talked to more friends and did research online, and a friend of mine had used this particular practice. I ended up going with the midwife that delivered her three children, and it worked out beautifully because it was early in pregnancy. That practice had openings. It took me a while because I was changing hospitals and practices completely. My insurance, luckily, covered all of the options. But that's another thing to look into. Does your insurance cover the hospital where the provider you want to switch to delivers that if it is a hospital birth? Of course, you can VBAC at home in certain states. So just looking at all of the factors that would come into play. So for me, it was dealing with the paperwork of switching out of that practice, getting admitted, and going to that initial get-to-know-you visit with a nurse and doing my labs before I got to meet with the midwife that I had wanted to work with. And so it took a bit. I mean, no one likes to deal with the paperwork and the phone calls it takes, but your health is so important and especially again, for VBACs.Meagan: Yeah. So you essentially did all the paperwork and the transfer yourself.Kristin: Yes.Meagan: Okay.Kristin: I made all the phone calls, dealt with insurance and made sure that the initial visit was paid for along with the nurse visit, and then that insurance was comfortable with me.Meagan: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I did, when I switched, because I switched it 24 weeks, my midwife just faxed a request to my OB office. It took them a while to send it. We had to ask five times which I think probably would have been faster if I, like you, made the phone calls and did all the things, but I was like in this weird, vulnerable spot of like, I don't want to go back there.Kristin: Right. You don't want to deal with it.Meagan: Yeah, I don't want to deal with it.Kristin: Even just talking to the front desk.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. So we waited for it and they eventually got it. But I think that that's important to note. You guys can make the calls too. You can call and say, "Hey, I'd like to request my records to be printed out or to be sent to this place." Kristin: Yes, and that's what I did. Because otherwise it's six weeks oftentimes or you have to keep calling. They get lost. so I just handled it. But it can be challenging. And as doulas and certainly VBAC doulas, we know the providers who would be not only tolerant but supportive of VBAC. So we get those questions frequently from potential clients and clients of, am I at the right place? And of course, we support whoever our clients choose to have care from. But there's also, if asked, I will tell them about the practice and my own experience as a doula or the agency's experience. And again, in those large practices, there might be four who are so VBAC-supportive. They love it, but then there might be some physicians who are not as comfortable. They feel that a surgical birth might be the better route to go, ad so there's that. So what I like to do as a VBAC doula is to have my clients talk to their provider. Again, go over a birth plan or birth preference sheet and have them sign off on it. That way, if they don't attend the birth, then the other physicians know that this was approved. It's not just a birth plan that is thrown out there, but it has been discussed. It doesn't work all the time, but it has been helpful for my clients no matter if they're a VBAC client or this is their first baby, and again, they have certain goals that they want to achieve like potentially avoiding an induction unless medically necessary.Meagan: Oh my gosh. So I'm just going to re-touch on that, you guys, because that was really, really, really good advice and something I've actually never done or even thought about or suggested to my own doula practice clients. Get your birth preference sheet or birth plans everyone calls a difference. I call it a birth preference sheet, which is a list of all your preferences that you desire. Go over that with your provider, and have them physically sign it. Physically sign it and date it showing that your provider went over it. And like she said, every provider may not be willing to do that, but I will say, if a provider is willing to do that, that says something to me.Kristin: It does. Yes.Meagan: Yeah. Super powerful. Oh, my gosh. Okay, nugget. Grab it, put it in your pocket, everybody. Sign your birth preference sheet so you can have it and keep that in your bag, so if you do have that random on-call doctor who may not even know you or not be so supportive, be like, "This has already been discussed. We were aware of this. My doctor has signed off." Also, you could maybe ask if your provider could make a copy of that and put it in your chart.Kristin: Right. Because yes, it's not just the one that they have on file, but it's also for the ones that you have, that copy that you're bringing and showing the nurse so the nurse and everyone is on the same page. Meagan: Love that. Kristin: And again, with teaching hospitals, you might have residents in and out. There can be some difficult conversations with VBAC and residents who have never seen a VBAC. We're not fully trained yet to support VBAC, and so they might be making suggestions while the provider is not in that check-in. So every state, again, every area is different. I just happen to be in an area with multiple teaching hospitals.Meagan: Same here. We have seen it where I think, I don't want to say this badly. The VBAC world is a world that can have a lot of negativities in it, negative things and big words like uterine rupture. We've got residents who may be coming in and may be training under a provider who has seen a uterine rupture or has maybe molded an opinion on VBAC and is projecting their opinion to that student. Whether or not they're consciously doing it or not, they're saying their opinion, and those opinions might morph that resident's opinion into negative for VBAC. You never know. And so they might be doing things or be more hesitant in areas that they don't need to be, but they are.Kristin: Yeah, it's such a good point. And as you mentioned, I mean, we don't know the traumas that our nurses and medical team, even home birth midwives, have experienced, and they carry that with them. And how can they not? Even as doulas, we witness, but we don't have the liability and the medical training to make it, but we are witnesses of trauma and have our own healing to do to be able to better move on and support the next client. So certainly keeping that in mind that they may have seen something that alters the way they practice.Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: It's not just fear of lawsuits.Meagan: It's really not. It's not. There's a provider here in Utah who is literally so scared of vaginal birth herself. She scheduled all of her Cesareans, even the very first one from the get. She never had trial of labor or TOL. She just doesn't. So can you imagine what her Cesarean rate may be? And she kind of reminds me of the provider you're talking about. She really likes it just so controlled. Come in, start Pitocin, and get the epidural. She likes those things, which we know can sometimes lead to those Cesareans. And so really also discussing with your provider, how do you feel about birth? Have you had babies? And then we have another OB who's like, "I work in the hospital, and I love the hospital, and I trust the hospital system, but I actually gave birth at home with all three of my babies," and so really getting to know your provider, I think, is so good. Okay, let's keep going on this topic of assembling your dream team of experts when planning for birth and baby. What other things would you suggest to our Women of Strength?Kristin: Yes. So as we know, birth is as physical as it is mental, and just the opposite, as mental as it is physical. So preparing with a childbirth class, a comprehensive class, even if you took one before, use the lens of your goal of attempting a VBAC, a trial of labor. And so for us, we happen to teach HypnoBirth at Gold Coast Doulas and that mind/body connection that HypnoBirthing or a gentle birth offers where it's more of using the visualization the way an athlete would in preparing for a marathon or a triathlon, you are using things to reduce fear. You're understanding all of your options. It's very partner involved. I think taking a comprehensive childbirth class, whichever meets your individual goals, is great. That childbirth instructor is a great person to add to your birth and baby team. And then moving your body. So taking a fitness class that is appropriate for pregnancy. So prenatal yoga, there are Barre classes for pregnancy. There are prenatal belly dancing classes, whatever it is. Meagan: Aqua aerobics.Kristin: Yeah, water aerobics are amazing. And so thinking about baby's position and helping labor to go on its own or be quicker. There's acupuncture, acupressure, the Webster-certified chiro for positioning or body balancing experts, so many different options. But I am a big fan of educating yourself and preparing because as you mentioned earlier, Meagan, a doula is not your end all, be all. Just because we have the information and the training, we can't think for you. We don't want to think for you. The more informed you are, the more likely you're going to feel like birth didn't happen to you this time around and you were a direct participant, even if you end up having a surgical birth again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. So talking about courses, you guys, we have our VBAC course. This VBAC course goes into VBAC, the stats about VBAC, the history of VBAC, the history of Cesarean, the stats of Cesarean, the questions, finding the provider, a little bit more of the mental prep, and physical prep. But when it comes to a childirth education course like with the course that she has, they're on different levels. I actually suggest them both.Kristin: Yes, me too. Absolutely.Meagan: But it's so important to know the information that is in your course. I know you go even past preparing for birth and then birth and then postpartum. You go into all of it. We're going to talk more about it. But you guys, we as doulas, love getting information and we love sharing information. But like she said, we don't want to be the only one that knows the information in a team. When our clients come in, at least here in my group, when our clients come in and they are fully educated and we're like, yes. And then we can come in with our education and our experience and knowledge, you guys, it is a powerhouse team. It is a powerhouse team. We have clients who, when they take child birth education classes like yours, they are able to advocate more for themselves. They feel stronger to stand up and say, "Hey, thank you so much, but no thanks" or "Maybe later," when our clients who haven't had that childbirth education or just any information other than maybe what we're providing, which is great, but not enough in the full length of pregnancy, it's a little harder. We have to try to encourage those clients a little bit more because it's harder for them because they don't know everything. We're there to help guide them and help advocate for them and educate them, but it is very different.Kristin: It is. It's so different. And I feel like, again, partners, especially male partners, want to fix things. They don't want their love to feel any pain, and so they may have the fear of a VBAC. So taking a VBAC class course, having a VBAC doula, giving information is just as helpful, if not more for the partner and their comfort level and to have them fully get on board because they may be resisting and just going along for the ride, but if you can get them to be an active participant in education, then they're going to be able to help you. And sometimes in labor, we get to a point in transition where we can't fully speak for ourselves. But if our partner understands, is educated and on board, and if there's time to talk through the risks and benefits and alternatives with your doula, then yes. But sometimes decisions have to be made quickly, and so for that partner to be informed and educated is crucial.Meagan: So crucial. It's so powerful. My husband-- he was not so on board. He was like, "Whatever. I don't care. You can go to the courses. You can do these things."Kristin: And that's very typical.Meagan: It's very typical. And I did. I did do those things. When I said, "Hey, I'm going to birth out-of-hospital," and he was like, "No," I was like, "Well, sorry. I've done the education. I know this is really where my heart is pulling." We touched on this in the beginning how partners really can influence decision making. And in no way, shape or form am I trying to say partners are terrible or don't listen to your partner or anything like that. That's not the goal of what we're saying is have an educated partner. Know that you can assemble a birth team, like a provider, a chiropractor, a massage therapist, a doula, a PT, or whatever it may be, but don't forget about your partner. Your partner is a huge part of your team, and if they're not educated and they're not able to help guide you through, or if they're not being supportive, find ways to help them be supportive by taking a course with them and helping them realize, oh, VBAC actually isn't that scary. Oh, that chance isn't really 50+%. Oh, okay. Hospital birth, out-of-hospital birth. Yeah. They're both reasonable, and really understanding that.Kristin: Absolutely. And sometimes I find that my students and clients may have not had success with breastfeeding the first time and potentially didn't take a class. So if their goal is to breastfeed or pump exclusively, then taking a breastfeeding class and having that IBCLC as a resource for their dream team in case it's needed because many times, you have the lactation consultant who's teaching the class, at least in my practice, and then they're also available for say, a home visit or a hospital visit, depending on where the class is taking place. And so I think that that's something. Even if it isn't your first baby and maybe you breastfed for a little bit or had supply issues or challenges after a surgical birth, that it is important to consider any education during pregnancy because it's much harder to get that education after you have your baby.Meagan: It really is. I love that you're touching on that, really getting into all the things and having your partner go with you. I remember I was like, I had a C-section, and I was swollen and tired, and I couldn't move very well. I was sore and all the things that sometimes come with C-sections. I'm trying to nurse, and I'm engorged.  I don't feel my letdown, and I'm just so engorged. I don't know. All I know is I have really big, swollen boobs. It's all I could tell. I couldn't latch. My husband was like, "That's it. We're going to the store. We're getting formula." Formula is fine. Not anything against formula.Kristin: He's trying to fix the problem and make you feel better.Meagan: Yep, yep, yep. Trying to fix that problem. But I was like, "No, I really want to breastfeed." At that point, I wasn't able to communicate. Like, I didn't get the birth I wanted. I already felt like a failure because I was actually told that your body failed. That's what I was told. So I was already dealing with this mindset that I failed. I had a C-section. I didn't want a C-section. And now the only thing I could try to do because I couldn't take that C-section back is breastfeed my baby. I wanted to breastfeed my baby. And again, we didn't take those childbirth education classes. He for sure didn't download any apps. I at least had an app trying to help me at that point, but he didn't understand. He didn't understand.And I'm like, no.I'm crying, and I'm like, "Please, just help me. I don't know what I need to help me." And he's like, "No, we're going to the store. Our baby's mad. You're crying." He was trying to fix that problem. But if we had already done that information education before and found that IBCLC before and him understanding how important that was to me, he could have been like, "I'm going to call her IBCLC. I'll get her over here right away."Kristin: Exactly. The last thing you want to do is go into the hospital to see a lactation consultant there if you can even get in.Meagan: Exactly. Yeah. So it just could have been so much smoother. Sometimes I feel like we were against each other at that point because he didn't have any education. With our first, I really didn't have much education. But with our third, it was like he really didn't have a lot of education. and I was over-the-top educated, so I was saying these things, and he was thinking I was demeaning him or saying he was stupid because it was just this weird thing. So if we can just come together with our partners and get all the education and get it all before really, find out a postpartum plan. Find out a breastfeeding plan. Right? Find out what you want. You guys, it just makes the pregnancy journey and the postpartum journey, so much better. It truly makes you feel like you're on that team because you are.Kristin: Yes. Absolutely. And certainly, I mean, you mentioned apps. Not everyone has the means or even lives in an area where they can take a comprehensive five, six, ten-week childbirth class. There are, obviously, online classes. There are some Zoom virtual ones where students are all over the place. But there are watching birth videos and YouTube and in my book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, we talk about apps, so count the kicks. Especially for VBACs, doing the self-monitoring if there's fear of fetal movement and any sort of distress during the end of the pregnancy, then really understanding your own body and doing monitoring. It's not just when you're in your provider's office being monitored. You can make a difference yourself. So having some different apps and some education on your own, listening to podcasts like yours to get this information and reading books. So there's more than if you can't afford a childbirth class like HypnoBirthing, there are still ways that you can get educated and your partner can get educated. So yeah, take a look at all of your options and your budget.Meagan: Yeah, and we talk about this all the time because I love them, but Be Her Village is a really great resource where you can go fill out a registry and, hopefully, get some help for these things. Childbirth education classes, doulas, IBCLCS. But I want to dive a little bit more into your book, actually, while we're talking about different resources. We talked about the childbirth education, but can we talk about more about Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby and how this came into fruition and what all is included in this amazing book.Kristin: Okay, Meagan. So essentially the book came out of our online course. Becoming a Mother launched in the early pandemic when everything was shut down and our classes all had to go virtual. I was fortunate to be in a state where doulas who were certified were able to work thanks to our governor. So we were working, but there was still a lot of isolation even with our clients' prenatal visits. They wanted a connection, so we launched this course. We had talked about and did three live launches, got VBAC from our students, pulled people in from all the moms' groups before creating the first draft of the course. And then the course just led to the book. So the content in Becoming a Mother is what is in the book in a different format. So in Becoming a Mother, we have expert videos, so VBAC specialists and Webster-certified chiropractors talking about what that is. Pelvic floor physical therapists, car seat safety technicians, cord blood banking donation centers.Meagan: Awesome.Kristin: We have the experts speaking for themselves-- a pediatrician. And so in the book, anything that is medical and out of the scope of a doula, we had expert contributors, so I have a pediatrician friend of mine who contributed a newborn procedure section of the chapter and a prenatal yoga studio instructor, she's also a certified body balancer. She contributed to some of the fitness options in the book, and a mental health therapist who is PMA focused and certified contributed to the mental health chapter. We have an IBCLC that contributed to the feeding chapter, and so a lot of involvement, and then sharing client stories throughout the book and then our own wisdom. We have doula tips and wisdom at the end of every chapter. Meagan: Wow.Kristin: And so as clients were asking me for books over the years, I couldn't find anything that was positive. I felt like there were a lot of, this is your cry-it-out method for sleep because we have a whole chapter on sleep and it's very attachment-focused. It's like, one way for feeding, and we wanted our clients, with their unique choices for themselves, to have a book that supports people who want to plan surgical birth like that OB and that's their comfort level and a book for the same person who wants a home birth. You don't have to buy five different books. It's not always Ina May which is a great book but not for everyone. All of her different-- she's got Spiritual Midwifery and so many different books. It is great for grandparents to read and partners but is targeted to the mother or the mother-to-be and is great in preconception in that early planning. But also, we wanted to make it similar to the course and just as valuable for seasoned bombs as it is for new moms. And again, it's affirming. We tried not to have any fear-filled information in a simple, easy-to-read guide that you can pull out for reference and a lot of different, again, apps and podcasts and books to read and resources and evidence-based information about Black maternal health and where we're at in the country now and how the pandemic impacted birth especially, but also that postpartum time.Meagan: Wow. That book sounds amazing. So amazing. And you guys, you can get it in every form, even Audible. I'm a big listener. I like to listen to books. Kristin and Alyssa actually recorded it. She was telling me they had 10+-hour days recording this this book. You can get it, and we will make sure to have the links for that in the show notes. I found it at goldcoastdoulas.com/supportedyourguidetobirthandbaby.Kristin: It's there. You can find it off that website or it has its own page. It's supportedbook.com. Meagan: Supportedbook.com, okay. We'll make sure that's all in the show notes, so you guys can grab that. Okay, so you know a lot. Obviously, you wrote a whole book and a whole course and all this stuff. Is there anything else that you would like to share in regards to just our final assembling of that powerhouse birth team?Kristin: So don't forget, I know we're talking a lot about pregnancy and birth prep, but don't forget your recovery phase. And you had talked about your own personal struggles with breastfeeding engorgement, recovery after a surgical birth. If you have, well, you do have other children at home with VBACs, and so looking at childcare, postpartum doula support, or what kind of family support you're going to have after, it's more than just meal plans and prepping the nursery. We strongly believe that as part of your dream team, the postnatal team is crucial as well. So whether it's a lactation consultant, a pelvic floor physical therapist, if you want to get back to running marathons again or are leaking. I mean, we can all use pelvic floor physical therapy. It's not just the athletes who they support. Some people, again, with building a home or other life occurrences like a wedding or preparing for college, you look at your budget. You look at your main goals. For a wedding, it might be food. For postpartum, it might be sleep. So hiring a sleep consultant when baby's old enough or an overnight postpartum doula or a newborn care specialist. What are your priorities? And take the budget. What might be paid for by insurance or, a health savings flex spending plan that you need to run down? What might be gifted? Like you mentioned, Be Her Village. There are different ways you can budget. And in the book, we talk about all of that and looking at employer plans, how to navigate that, what questions to ask your HR department about other members, like a chiropractor, could that be covered? A therapist? Oftentimes, we don't know our own benefits and certainly, I don't know my husband's benefits fully, so to be able to investigate that early in pregnancy and figure out what might be fully or partially paid for.Meagan: Wow. That is incredible itself. I feel like that's a whole other conversation of, how to navigate how to do that. So definitely go get the book, you guys, because it sounds like there are just so many things in there that are honestly crucial to know. really, really important things to know. You are incredible. Kristin: So are you.Meagan: I just enjoy chatting with you so much. Anything else? Yeah, anything else you'd like to add?Kristin: And obviously, take taking trainings and courses. If I know you have doulas who listen. It's not just parents.Meagan: Yes.Kristin: As doulas go through The VBAC Link. Get certified as a VBAC doula. Keep up with information that is ever-changing. We all want to be the best doula for each of our clients, but I am a firm believer in continuing our own education and that more and more of our clients are choosing to attempt VBACs, and so the more information you can get as a professional, the better you're able to support. It's just not the number of VBACs you've attended anymore. It's clients wanting that knowledge so you can be busier and also a more effective doula by getting that training and then going through the certification process that you offer.Meagan: Yeah, have a directory actually with birth doulas where people can go and find it because when Julie and I created this company way back in the day, we knew that we were just two people here in Utah. We couldn't change the VBAC world. We could give as much information as we could. We could share the podcast. We could do those types of things. But when it comes to birth workers, we wanted to reach birth workers everywhere. It's so great that we have and we're still having more people come on because they're helping people so much. I mean, we know you have doulas that do it all the time. These doulas do help and there are actual stats on doulas that do it. But I agree. If you're a birth worker, stay up to date. Be in the know. Know what's going on because you will likely need to help guide your client through it. Kristin: Then you can charge more. So take that investment in a training like The VBAC Link, and then you're able to charge more because you're more experienced. You have more certifications. So don't look at like, oh, I don't have any money for continuing education. Look at how that's going to change your career.Meagan: Yeah, and I think sometimes too you can charge a little bit more, take less clients, and be more personal with those clients and dive into it. Especially because we do know that VBAC does take some extra stuff that goes on with VBAC. There's some extra work to be worked through. There are some extra things and so yeah, I love that.Kristin: Well, thank you so much for having me on Meagan, I loved our chat.Meagan: Thank you. You as well. As always, I loved our other chat as well. We have to keep going. I think I'm going to order your book today and get going on that. Even though I'm not a mom preparing, I think this would be such a great book to suggest to all of my clients. So thank you for sharing. Thank you.Kristin: Yeah. My secondary audience is certainly anyone who works with families in the birth and baby space, but it is targeted again, just similar to my podcast. It's like I have the listener of the pregnant individual and family, but also birth workers. The book is similar. Thank you for ordering.I appreciate it. Meagan: Yes. And can you also tell everybody where to find you not just in your book, but Instagram, podcast, and all of the social medias?Kristin: So my podcast is Ask the Doulas. You can find us on all the podcast players and you were a guest recently, so very fun. And certainly, we're at Gold Coast Doulas on everything from Pinterest to YouTube to Facebook to Instagram. I don't have separate social sites for my book because I honestly don't have time for that.Meagan: That's okay. Yeah, it's a package. It comes with everything, so you don't need to have another book page. Well, awesome. Well, thank you again so much.Kristin: Thank you. Have a great day.Meagan: You too.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Liz, a mama of two from Long Island, New York, joins us today sharing her experience with preeclampsia, an unexpected C-section, and her successful VBAC with her second. Liz had a perfect health history and never had any surgeries before her C-section. It was so frustrating to feel so out of control. In between her birth and her second pregnancy, Liz's mom unexpectedly passed away. She shares how she has been processing the intense grief from her mother's passing and from the positive birth experience she wasn't able to have. Liz made lots of changes going into her VBAC birth including diet, switching providers, and choosing to birth at home!Liz's DoulaCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan Hello, everybody. We have our friend, Liz, from New York with us today. She is a mom of two and almost two years old. Right? Your VBAC baby?Liz: Yes.Meagan Almost two years since your VBAC baby.And then an almost six-year-old. And yeah, like I said, she lives in New York, and she's going to be sharing her stories with you guys today. With her first birth, she actually had preeclampsia, so she's gonna talk more about that. And then with her second birth, she didn't have preeclampsia. I think this is an important thing to talk about because we know that having preeclampsia again is a possibility, and it might be slightly increased if you've had it, but it doesn't mean you will. So I'm hoping that we can talk a little bit more if you did do anything to try to avoid it. The second one, we'll talk more about that in a little bit. But knowing that it's still okay. If you have preeclampsia, you can still VBAC. Now, in her second one, she didn't have preeclampsia, but you can still VBAC if you have preeclampsia. So we're going to talk about that a little bit after your first birth too, because I want to know more. All right. We do have a Review of the Week today, and this is by jess2123. It says "Best Podcast for VBAC". It says, "I listened to the podcast after my son's birth. I learned so much that I knew I wanted a VBAC for my second birth. When I became pregnant again, I would listen to this podcast during my walks. Thanks to the wealth of knowledge that I gained, I had my unmedicated VBAC in 2023." Congratulations, Jess, on your VBAC, and thank you so much for your review. I know this year we're tossing it up between reviews and educational pieces, but I just do want to remind you really quickly that if you haven't left us a review yet, we would love it. You can push "pause" right now and listen or leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can go over to Google. Google "The VBAC Link", and leave us a review there. These reviews really do help us and bring us so much joy. So without further ado, I want to turn the time over to you.Liz: Thank you so much. I guess every VBAC story starts with the Cesarean story, or at least there's one in there. My pregnancy journey did start with a Cesarean as far as the first birth. As Meagan mentioned, I am a mom of two. With my first son, I fortunately have been reproductively very healthy and otherwise healthy my entire life. I was able to track everything. I had regular cycles and really no issues there, so I feel really, really blessed in that regard. I was able to get pregnant pretty easily. I believe I got pregnant in about February 2018 for the first time. I found out mid-March after I tested in my bathroom and just ran out with the test to my husband, nothing super special. I think I was just shocked. I remember I had gone to a St. Patrick's Day parade and felt so tired that I said to my friend, "I'm going to go home and nap in between that and another event." They were all like, "Why are you napping?" I was like, "I don't know, I'm just really tired." I took the pregnancy test to rule out pregnancy. It was immediately positive which was amazing. My EDD, my estimated due date, was supposed to be Thanksgiving that year, so it was November 22nd which was Thanksgiving 2018. That just made me laugh because I was like, wow, what a far cry from Thanksgiving Eve spent even a decade previous. But yeah, so my pregnancy started out pretty status quo, I would say. I definitely experienced that nausea. My morning sickness was definitely an all-day thing, so it was a little tough. I think it threw me for a loop because I didn't know what to expect. I had always wanted to eat healthier, especially being pregnant, but it was like my body would not allow me to eat what I wanted or what my brain wanted me to eat. It was a lot of carbs to start out. I know that's pretty common. I remember when I went for my first appointment, I had called an OB's office. I'm trying to think. I think I had gone for one well-woman visit before, but I had two friends, actually three friends who had delivered with this OB and had good experiences, so I figured I would give it a try. The funny thing is, pretty much from the jump, I could tell that we weren't very aligned. I didn't really see eye-to-eye with him, but he had this nurse practitioner who was wonderful, and I feel like she drew people in because she was just very nurturing and calming, and she just had that great energy. I knew, obviously, she wasn't going to be at my birth, but I still stayed there.Meagan Oh yeah. So can we talk about that a little bit? So you had one provider that you're like, "I don't know, our energy doesn't match." And then one that you're like, "Our energy totally matches." But then they wouldn't be birthing with you. So tell me a little bit more of what that provider was that wasn't matching your energy.Liz: Yeah. So I guess because I had always been so healthy, my experiences with medical professionals were very limited. I had just gone to doctors for routine checkups my entire life, and everything was always fine. I think because I wasn't very experienced in the medical world, I almost had this aversion to it. I just was like, they're there if there's an emergency, but it'll be fine. Everything will be fine. I'm trying to do this as naturally as possible. He seemed very old school. I don't know how to describe it, just very set in his ways. I remember, I'll circle back around, but towards the end of the pregnancy when I had finally gotten the gall to tell him that I really wanted to try and do this unmedicated because I was so nervous to say that, he was like, "Well, don't expect this baby to just fall out of you. You're a first-time mom."Meagan Wait, what?Liz: He literally said that to me. And I was like, "Okay, I didn't think that." Meagan: I wasn't saying that. Liz: Yeah, I wasn't saying that I didn't think I wouldn't have to work hard. That's not what I'm saying. So just comments like that. The bedside manner just didn't seem very nurturing. He was very by the book, quick appointments, and asking me his little checklists of items, and that was it, whereas I felt like his nurse practitioner was very warm, had great bedside manner, and really just cared about mothering the mother in that situation. It wasn't just about the baby and how I was going to give birth or how I preferred to give birth. It was the entire experience. I remember at one point, she even said, "Obviously, there is a need for testing certain things and for keeping an eye on everything, but I really just feel like if we left women more alone to go through their pregnancies, they might be better off because we're so hands-on in the United States, and it just causes sometimes more anxiety throughout a time that's supposed to be really beautiful."So she did mention that she reminded me of, I don't know, a woman who crouched down in the field and gave birth to her babies in the woods. That's who she reminded me of. I don't know if that's the truth for her. I never did ask anything about her birthing experiences, but that's who she reminded me of. Just super warm and nurturing. I think also I maybe just aligned more with a female provider. It could have been just that too.Meagan: Yeah, it could have been. But I mean, what you were saying, comments like that, if I'm being super straight, we've interviewed providers on here that have come across really great, and then the more I've interviewed them, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if I like that. I don't know."That can just happen. I think that's where it comes with vetting your provider and going with who makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But at the same time you're in this place where you're like, well, we've got this medical. We'll see how it goes. I've got this to also like, I've got this warm, fuzzy, filling-my-cup over here. So it seems like it's an okay match, right?Liz: Yeah. And I also manipulated it to the point where I would only make appointments when she was available throughout my pregnancy where the office was like, "You have to see the OB. You have to. He is going be the one who's attending your birth." I'm just like, "But I don't want to. I don't want to do that."Meagan: Yeah.Liz: I just stuck with the practice, I think, because I was nervous. I was new to it and like you said, I was getting my warm and fuzzy cup filled by that nurse practitioner's presence. Things progressed. I finally outgrew that morning sickness. By the second trimester, it was week 12 or 13 and it let up, and I was feeling good. I was pretty energetic. I was doing yoga on a somewhat regular basis. Nutritionally, I do want to mention because I think this does play a role in how things may have gone with the preeclampsia. But nutritionally, I was actually coming off of a vegetarian diet. I had been a vegetarian for a few years. I had gotten really deep into yoga in the early 2010s, and I became a vegetarian when I was doing teacher training for that. So I was purely vegetarian for a few years, and then I started integrating poultry back into my diet. I ate very little because my husband also doesn't consume a lot of meat, so we just didn't eat a lot of meat. I feel like I'm already a picky eater even as an adult. I definitely was as a child, but even as an adult, I still have things that I just don't like, so I feel like my diet was pretty limited, and I perhaps was not getting the nutrients that I needed, especially when my body underwent this or got pregnant and was going through this stressful event.Meagan: Yeah. Growing a placenta and a baby. Yeah, it needed its nutrients.Liz: Yeah. So I feel like during my pregnancy, especially once I started to feel good again, I ate whatever I wanted. So that whole like, I'm just going to eat so healthy, I was just like, yeah, no. I'm eating for two. I totally knew that's not what you're supposed to do. Meagan: I did the same thing. Liz: Yeah. I was like, whatever. I'm feeling great. I'm going to eat it. It's there. I'm going to eat it. So I get to my 20-week anatomy scan. I'm not even sure if it was exactly at 20 weeks, and everything goes well. Fortunately, no complications with the baby. Oh, I had also gotten a NIPT to find out the sex of the baby, so I knew I was having a boy. The anatomy scan did validate that. But that week, I don't know if it was right before or right after my anatomy scan, I noticed that I was starting to swell just on my right side of my body. My right foot was swollen. My right ankle leg was a little swollen. I remember reaching out to my social media friends. I just put out a status like, "Hey, pregnant lady here. I don't really know what's going on. Is this normal? Is this something I should bring up to my provider? What do you guys think?" There were plenty of people who were like, "No, it's totally normal to be swollen at that point." I even said, "It's only on one side though. It's weird."Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Liz: So they were like, "Just elevate your feet. See what happens." It would always go down, but it was just odd that I happened to notice just the swelling on one side of the body. So definitely interesting. Yeah. So I keep going. I'm getting bouts of pretty much every pregnancy symptom, but it would always be very short-lived. I definitely had some reflux, short-lived. I got sciatic pain so bad one day that I couldn't get out of the car. I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat and I said to my husband, "I can't walk on my right leg right now because of my sciatic nerve." So I was doing all these exercises to try and get the baby off my nerve and all of that, and everything just waxed and waned. Nothing was long-lived by any means. So I get to 30 weeks. I think it was at my 30-week appointment, and I believe it was the medical assistant who come in and took my blood pressure and wait like they always do. I don't know if it was her or the nurse practitioner who said that I had my first high blood pressure reading. Like, "Oh, it's elevated a little bit." And I was like, "Oh, that's so strange. I've been a 120/80 girl this entire time, and my whole life, I've never had blood pressure issues." And they're like, "Okay, well it's something to keep an eye on. Let's see. We're going to let you lay on your side, and see if we can have it come down. We'll take it at the end of the appointment again." And it did. It would come down, but they definitely were like, "We're going to keep this in our back pocket, and we might have to have additional monitoring if this progresses." I didn't really know what high blood pressure and pregnancy could mean, so of course, I go to Dr. Google like a good pregnant lady does, right?Meagan: Yep. A lot of us, I'm guilty.Liz: Guilty. Yeah. I was like, okay, so it could be hypertension in pregnancy or it could turn into preeclampsia. I was reading all the things, how this could turn and what that all meant. So in the back of my head, I always thought like, okay. I'm aware of what could indicate preeclampsia, but that's not going to be me. I am a healthy person, right? I've always been healthy my entire life. There shouldn't be any issues while I'm pregnant. And that wasn't the case, unfortunately. But I did go in a few more times, and I did get elevated blood pressure readings. So I don't know what week I was, but I know it was the beginning of October. I saw this other nurse practitioner who was not warm and fuzzy. She was new to the practice and she saw me. She took my pressure, and you could see the alarm in her face, but she wasn't saying much. This stuck with me to this day. It's just so crazy. She handed me this paper. The hospital that I was delivering at is a small community hospital, but it's affiliated with this Catholic healthcare system where I live, so they have a few different hospitals that are also within that same system. She just gave me this paper that had a listing of all these numbers for these different departments at these hospitals, and she just said, "You need to call them and make an appointment." And I'm like, "I have literally no idea what this is about." She's like, "Your pressure is high. You need to go make an appointment with them," but that's all she said to me. Meagan: For what? Yeah. Liz: Yeah, what is happening right now? I remember even that day, she asked me about my face. She was just like, "Is your face swollen? Does your face normally look like that?" I was like, "I have a very round face. I have big cheeks. To me, my face doesn't look different." Yeah. So she handed me that paper, told me to call, and like the good patient I am, I was like, "Sure, I'll call." So I called. I found out it was maternal-fetal medicine, which for those of you out there that don't know what that is, that's a high-risk doctor, and I had no idea. So this is my first experience with that. I did call. I made an appointment, and my OB office had me do a 24-hour urine drop or urine drip, however you want to call that. Meagan: Urine catch? Urine catch, probably?Liz: Yeah, so for those of you who don't know what that is, they give you a jug from a lab, and you have to put your urine into that jug for an entire 24 hours. They test it, and they're checking to see if there's any protein that is spilling into your urine because that could indicate decreased kidney function. Meagan: Preeclampsia. Yeah.Liz: Yeah. That is a symptom of preeclampsia. So I did do that. I went and saw MFM, and in the office there, my pressures were labile. They even called them that-- labile. It had elevated a little bit, probably in the 130s over 90s, but then by the end of the appointment, it had come down. My labs for that urine catch did indicate that there was protein present, but it wasn't within a diagnosable threshold. It was below that lab threshold, so I basically wasn't diagnosable. But they were like, "Now we're going to watch you." Most people like to see their babies on ultrasounds. That's an exciting thing. I became so fed-up with having to go in. I was, at that point, a frequent flyer. I was going in weekly earlier than a pregnancy that wasn't having any sort of complications. I was getting not only an ultrasound, but an NST every time I went in, so I'd have to lay there for 45 minutes while they looked at the baby's heart tones and everything. Yeah, at that point, I was just really stressed out because I was like, is that what this is turning into? But I don't have preeclampsia. I think I also saw my OB within that timeframe and he mentioned, "If this progresses, we will be doing a 37-week induction." And I was like okay, so I'm going to keep that in mind. But again, this isn't going to progress to that because I'm healthy and we're going to make it past 37 weeks. I probably wouldn't get the type of delivery that I wanted. And that's probably something I should mention. If I was induced at 37 weeks, I was preparing to have an unmedicated birth, a vaginal birth, and I was even taking a HypnoBirthing class to try and labor as long as I could at home. My whole thing was that I didn't want to go to the hospital until I needed the hospital or until I felt I needed the hospital. So here I am thinking, okay. I want this unmedicated, low-intervention birth, but I'm having all these interventions right now because they need to monitor me. There's some sort of issue that might be brewing. Yeah. I already said I went to MFM and all of that. My symptoms, at that point, were mostly swelling. I was getting very swollen at this point. I had that pitting edema in my legs, so I could press my finger into my leg. Meagan: It stayed. Liz: It stayed, and then my feet were like little loaves of bread. My feet will never forget what they went through. My husband would just massage them every single night, trying to get the fluid to move out of my tissues. It was crazy. I had another experience with a different OB who was not my OB, but I was out at a family event at this restaurant, and this woman approached me, told me she was an OB, and asked me if I was okay because my legs and my feet did not look so great.Meagan: What?Liz: Yeah. I was just standing in the lobby minding my business, and she's like, "Are you okay?" as if I'm not being monitored, but do you think I'm just going through this free and unaware of what's happening? Yeah. So that was interesting. She said that she was an OB. Yeah. So I went for weekly NSTs, the ultrasounds, and everything looked great with the baby. He was never under any sort of distress. No concerns of intrauterine growth restriction, nothing like that, but my pressures just kept being labile. I actually borrowed a blood pressure cuff so I could monitor at home. There were some mornings where I'd lay down on the couch after I woke up, and my blood pressures were reaching into those like 140s over 90, 91 maybe. I just would cry. I was just hysterical. Like, why is this happening? I don't want to go to labor and delivery right now. I don't want to be monitored. I'm already being monitored so much. There were probably some weeks towards the end where it was more than once that I went into my OB's office for monitoring. So fortunately, we made it through that 37-week mark. We made it all the way to, essentially, the end. And we get to Thanksgiving Eve, right? So my due date is the next day. I'm at 39 and 6. This was one of those appointments where they said, "You have to see the OB." I know I just kicked and screamed, not really, but in my head like, "F"ine, I'll see him. So the medical assistant comes in, takes my pressure and my weight, doesn't say anything, and leaves the room. He comes in, takes my pressure in my weight, and he asks me to meet him in his office.Meagan: Really?Liz: Yes. So I get myself dressed out of the gown that they had given me, and I go meet him in this fancy office. And he's like, "Your pressure is very high today, very high. So you're going to be going to labor and delivery straight from here." He's like, "I have a few meetings that I have to attend to here, but I will meet you over there in a few hours." And I was like, obviously, on the verge of tears. I'm just like, "Can I please stop home and get my stuff? Like, I have bags, I have a dog."Meagan: If you can go to your meetings, I can go to my house.Liz: Right. And yeah, my OB's was maybe 12-13 minutes away from my house, and the hospital was about five minutes down the road. So I was just like, "Can I just go home and grab my stuff?" And he's like, "No, no, no. Go straight to the hospital." And he goes, "And you're probably going to have a Cesarean."Meagan: What?Liz: This is after I tell him my natural birth, or my unmedicated, definitely wanting a vaginal birth. I was like, what? Literally, that was when the tears of waterworks really started. I was just like, "there's no shot at me having a vaginal birth?" And he's just like, "Well, I'm going to be putting you on medication to prevent seizures, so you can either labor with that and have it cancel out my induction medication, or you can just be calm and go to a Cesarean." Like, go to the OR, essentially.Meagan: What were your pressures?Liz: 170/110 that day.Meagan: Okay. Okay.Liz: So, high. Meagan: Yeah. But he's like, "You can do this, but it's not going to work, or you could just calm down and do this."Liz: Yeah, yeah. It was like, those aren't options, so that's not really an option. Right? That's what you're telling me. Meagan: Yeah. Liz: Yeah. So I called my mom. I called my husband, frantic. I was just flipping out. I get out of the office, I'm crying in the parking lot telling everybody. They're telling me to go right to the hospital. So, of course, my husband rushes home from work. He was at work. It was a Wednesday, and he got my dog. He had to bring my dog to my mom's, grab our bags to the extent that they were packed, and he met me there. I was crying. I walked myself into the hospital. It was the most surreal thing. I checked myself in knowing that I was going to come out with a human being, which was bizarre. And when I finally got to labor and delivery, my nurse was so sweet, but I was crying so much that she was just like, "Are you going to be okay?" And I was like, "I really want a vaginal delivery." And she's just like, "Honey." She goes, "I understand. I do think he's making the right choice. I do think you're making the right choice," which again, I don't really feel like I had a choice in that.Meagan: Yeah, you're like, "I wasn't really given a choice."Liz: She was also trying to relate. She's like, "I've had three Cesareans. I promise you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay." I was just like, "I've never even had a tooth pulled. I don't know if I could do this."So my husband arrived again. I'm just crying. He's trying to cheer me up, trying to keep our eyes on the prize and the fact that we were going to hopefully have a healthy baby at the end of all this. I want to say between check-in and when my OB arrived and scrubbed himself in, it was probably about three hours. Yeah. And I walked into the OR, another bizarre experience. I just walked in.Meagan: Yeah. Yep.Liz: Okay, so everybody scrubs in. There's a whole host of people in there, including my nurse. I had never had surgery, so they're giving me all the instructions as to how I need to lean forward so that they can put a spinal block, I think, at that point, the anesthesiologist, and it was so bizarre. It felt like the most claustrophobic thing. If any of you have ever had Cesareans, hopefully you can relate to me, but feeling the numbness just go up your legs.Meagan: It is very strange. I walked in for my second one. With my first one I just had an epidural, but the second one I had a spinal.Liz: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, so bizarre. Then, like I had already mentioned I was so swollen, so they had to just take my very swollen-- I felt like a beached whale-- body parts and put them onto this operating table because I couldn't move once. Obviously, the spinal had activated. So that was bizarre. But my husband, I mean, this man is the calmest person and the nicest person I know. Thank God for him and his presence on that day. He kept me nice and calm. Everybody was really, really nice in the OR. The only thing I happened to notice at one point was they had my blood pressure cuff on. That's why I'm here, right? Because my blood pressures are so hig,h and it had slipped down to my wrist, so I had my arms out. I don't think my arms were strapped down. I don't remember that. I had them out, and I look over to the extent that I could to the anesthesiologist, like, "Hey, does somebody want to maybe put this cuff on? Because that's why I'm, here. That's why we're in this position right now." But yeah, my husband and I just chatted and laughed the entire surgery. Everything worked out really well with the spinal. I did not feel any pain. They did talk me through to an extent about what I would feel as far as tugging or pulling or pressure. My son was fortunately born really healthy, screaming, great Apgar score, the whole nine. He came, and oh my god, what a feeling. Obviously, I was so emotional because of how the birth had gone and what had led me there. But becoming a parent and seeing your child for the first time, you can't really describe that. It's amazing. I have really nice photos and video that the nurse took. They brought the baby over to me. They did not do skin-to-skin with me. Again, I had all of these birth plans, preferences, and, none of that came to fruition. None of that pertained to my or situation. I was so, so happy and also so sad. I don't know how to describe it. It was like the happiest and saddest day of my whole life up until that point. So recovery was interesting. I feel like I got maybe 5 hours of sleep in the hospital total. I was on a magnesium drip. People had told me that the side effects could be a little bit gnarly with that, but I fortunately didn't find anything abnormal. I think I had so much adrenaline. But I did try to get my son to latch, and he was having a really hard time latching. They had a lactation consultant from the hospital come in and see me, and I could not get him to latch. I happened to notice that his tongue was really tethered, super tethered. I could see the tie was really far forward, and he couldn't lift his tongue. So I kept telling them, I was like, "He can't lift his tongue up the way that I feel like he needs to." They just kept telling me how to hold my own body to try and breastfeed properly. I'm like, "I don't think that that's the problem though." So that was really challenging. They did want me to stay extra time for some monitoring. So the next day was Thanksgiving. I don't think my OB wanted to be there. It was a holiday, right? He took his sweet time coming in because they wouldn't even let me eat. That was the thing. I was on magnesium. They brought breakfast in at like 7:00, and he strolls in at like 10:30. I just watched my breakfast get cold in the corner. So that was interesting. But yeah, I think at that point, if you had had a Cesarean without complications, they were looking at about a 48-hour stay. But they asked me to stay an additional day because my pressures were still labile. They were still elevated. I did get put on-- I can't remember the name of medication, but it was blood pressure medication. I was taking Motrin for pain management, the hospital-grade Motrin for my Cesarean. I cannot even describe what it was like trying to get up and walk around that first time after surgery. It's insane. That was something I didn't expect. But yeah, I didn't get much sleep. The last day that I was there, my dog had gotten into a place in my mom's house that she couldn't get him. He had gotten into something, and she couldn't reach him, so she was flipping out. She called my husband. She didn't call me and just told him, "Listen, you have to come get the dog. I can't get him." So he did. I told him, "It's fine, it's fine, you can leave." While he was gone, I had friends come and visit me. They were still visitors pre-COVID. The covering physician came in. I had my son on Wednesday. Thursday was Thanksgiving and I saw my OB, and then there were covering physicians for Friday and Saturday. So we're at Friday now, Friday evening. He came in and saw me and he's like, "You know what? I might be able to discharge you tonight." I got so excited because I was like, this is my first experience having a newborn baby. My husband is trying to go deal with my dog. How awesome would it be if we could just go home tonight?So I got super excited. He said this right in front of my friends, too. He comes back in a short while later and was like, "I just looked at your chart. I looked at your pressures." He didn't clear out the room, nothing. And he's like, "You know what? I can't discharge you. Not with pressures like this. I can't do that." And he's like, "And the covering physician tomorrow won't be able to discharge you any sooner than late afternoon, early evening because that is when he will be here." I was like, okay. So here I am in my head thinking I could go home tonight, and now you're telling me I might be able to go home tomorrow afternoon or evening. I'm already very hormonal. I'm very emotional. My husband's not here.My friends wound up leaving, and I just sobbed. I just sobbed in my room like, oh my god. this is a nightmare. Why can't my body get it together? Why can't I just have normal blood pressures again?Meagan: Yeah.Liz: Yeah. We did wind up getting discharged the next day, but I remember that physician just being so the last straw for me in that experience. You didn't have to say anything at all, and then you also set it in front of all of my friends.Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah. So you didn't stay with this provider, did you?Liz: I did not stay with this provider.Meagan: For your VBAC? Okay.Liz: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah. I guess I should probably get into that story, right?Meagan: No, this has been great. This has been great. Yeah. Yeah. So you were done. You went home. You're like, last straw, no more, never again.Liz: Yeah. Yeah. And I did have my. My son assessed by a lactation consultant, and she said that was one of the most severe tongue ties that she had ever seen. She did recommend a release. I was four days postpartum at this point. I wound up supplementing with formula which was something I so didn't want to do, but I was just like, this kid is starving. He can't latch properly. I did. I went and saw a specialist, and I had his tongue and lip ties both revised, and it was severe. That was a severe tongue tie. I know people have mixed feelings about that, but he needed it. Even in my opinion, as a lay person.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Liz: But yeah, pretty much immediately I knew I wanted things to be different the following pregnancy and birth. I think I started thinking about my VBAC probably that day. It was probably the day I gave birth to my son. This cannot be how this goes every time.So it took me a really long time to even want to conceive again. Not only did I have all these complicated feelings about my birth because yes, I did have a healthy baby. Yes, I ultimately weaned off of blood pressure medication and my body came back to however you want to phrase normal, but I had had this experience that I was holding onto a lot of trauma from, and unfortunately, my son was four months old and my mom suddenly passed away. So yeah, it was unexpected. It was sudden. I still to the day am shocked that I didn't lose my milk supply, but I was able to pump in the hospital and get my son milk. That is a crazy, surreal experience losing a parent, but I don't think that there's much more cruel than losing someone that you care about so much. My mom and I were so close in a postpartum period that's already complicated by birth trauma. So now I had this grief for my mom. I had this grief for the birth experience I didn't have. I think that largely contributed to me waiting to conceive again. I also wanted to try and find out as much as I could about what causes preeclampsia. What exactly goes on in the body that would cause that to happen? Funny thing is the verdict is still out there. They're not exactly sure what causes it.Meagan: Yeah. And there are things that we can do to try to help avoid it, but there's nothing specifically that's like if you do this, you for sure won't have it.Liz: Yeah.Meagan: The same thing with gestational diabetes. It's within the placenta, but we don't know. It needs to be further studied.Liz: Yeah. I have heard that it has to do with the father. Have you heard that too?Meagan: I have heard that as well, that there's a connection. Yes.Liz: Yeah. So I wound up, I remember I saw a home birth my wife just for blood work between having my son and conceiving my daughter. She did mention, "Preeclampsia is largely a first-time pregnancy illness. Largely. It doesn't mean you can't have it a second time," but she was the one who mentioned to me you have a higher instance of getting it again if you have the same father for your child. And I'm like, "Well, I'm married."Meagan: Well, I am going to have the same father.Liz: Yeah. So that was always in the back of my head. It's like, okay well, subsequent pregnancy, less of a chance. But same father, more of a chance. So I was just wondering what my odds were. It definitely was there on my mind for a long time. I studied as much as I could about what could cause it. I've read Lily Nichols, Real Food for Pregnancy, cover to cover. Obsessed with her. Obsessed with everything she has to say. There it is right here.Meagan: And right here and right here. Real Food for Gestational Diabetes. Real Food for Pregnancy. Food is powerful, you guys. It's very powerful. But it's changed over the years.Liz: I know. I love how she presents the research because she's the one who really delves into it and presents it in such a digestible way. It was such an easy read. I was like, okay. Okay, here are some things that I can control. Can I control everything? No. But here are the things that I intend to do the next time.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: So my mom passed away in April 2019. It took, again, a few years, but by spring 2022, I was feeling ready. And my husband and I kind of discussed it. It was in little passing. "Hey, should we try and get pregnant again?" And it was one time. It's not lost on me how lucky I am in that sense that it took me one shot to get pregnant.Meagan: Which is awesome. Liz: Yeah. I found out my EDD for that pregnancy was going to be on Christmas Day.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Liz: Yeah. And I just said, "Wow, I can't avoid major winter holidays, apparently, with my pregnancies."Meagan: Yeah. Oh, my gosh.Liz: So we did not find out that we were having a girl, but she did wind up being a girl. Spoiler alert. But, yeah, I was really not feeling well that pregnancy. It was like aversions times 1000. I had this really bizarre one that I had never even heard anybody discussed before, but I had so much extra saliva in my mouth. I'm sorry. That might sound disgusting. It felt like when right before you're going to get sick, how your mouth fills up with saliva but all day.Meagan: Like your saliva glands were just excess all the time, giving you all the spit possible.Liz: Yeah, it was disgusting.Meagan: That is interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that.Liz: Yeah, it was terrible. Fortunately, I was working from home. I was working full-time, but I was at home. I would just walk around with a spit cup. Like, how disgusting. It disgusts me to even talk about it. It's just like, what is happening? I was waiting for those aversions to let up because I couldn't stand the smell of coffee, which, I love coffee. Basically the sight of anything that wasn't pure oxygen was disgusting to me. The sight of opening up my refrigerator was like, ugh. Exactly. The gag reflex. That lasted my second pregnancy until 22 weeks. So it was rough. I joked that I was horizontal for 2022, and that's not even a joke. I really was lying down. I had so much guilt because my son was so energetic at this point. He was nearly four years old, and he had so much energy. He wanted to do things, and I could not muster up the energy most of the time. My husband was the default parent, and I never thought that that would be the case. That was really, really hard. That was probably the hardest part of the pregnancy. But yeah, so I started to really actively plan for that VBAC. I started to see a hospital-based group of midwives. I loved them. I had gone for well-woman visits between as well. But every provider that I saw was just amazing. I didn't have any bad things to say. I knew that I would be with them if I was in the hospital. But deep down in my heart, I really, really wanted to be at home. I had seen so many beautiful home birth videos when I did HypnoBirthing. And I also associated hospitals with sickness. I had been there because I developed preeclampsia.Meagan: Uh-huh.Liz: I had been there when my mom was sick and passing away. It was a sick place. I wanted to be at a place where I felt most safe. For me, that was home. I know people have a lot of feelings and opinions about that all over, but for me, that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to do all of the things to keep myself low-risk and able to birth at home if possible while still making plans for transfer and even surgery if it was needed again. So I wasn't ignorant to the fact that it could turn into that, but I was going to try all of the things.Where I live, there actually aren't a lot of home birth midwives who support HBACs, VBACs at home. But I found one and we clicked immediately. When I spoke to her on the phone, I was like, she is my girl. I need her. I need her energy at my birth. We met in person a few weeks later, and she was so, so gung-ho about it. She had mentioned that her mom actually had an HBAC, and she witnessed her mom having that HBAC. It was just ingrained into her. She really supported me with advice on diet. She helped me with supplementation. I was on a lot of supplements for this pregnancy. I'm not even going to front. I had so many alarms set for all my supplements daily. So yes, I was trying to support myself with diet, of course, but I was trying to also fill in any gaps that might be there with supplementation. I just know my diet's not perfect, and it certainly wasn't when I was feeling terrible.Meagan: Yeah, no one's is. No one's is. That's just the reality of it. We can be eating the best we can, and we still are often falling short. That's why supplements are really great.Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I was seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor the entire time to get myself into the best alignment to have that vaginal birth. The supplementation, I was doing reformer pilates. I had started it the year before, and I did it all the way until the very end of November 2022, so I was staying active. I was really trying. I basically said that I will do almost anything to keep myself at home. That was really my motto. Yeah, I really can't say I was totally worry-free. I was waiting for something to go wrong. I was. I was trying to keep this brave face as like, okay. I can do this. I can birth the way that I want to. I can have this complication-free birth and pregnancy experience. And in the back of my head I'm thinking, when is the next shoe go going to drop?Meagan: I mean, it's what you've experienced in the back story, the last story. And it's hard. Even if we've processed through things, there's still sometimes those little creeping thoughts that come in.Liz: Yeah. That is for sure. My midwife did recommend that I get a third-trimester ultrasound. That was more for her, but it was also for me. She never ever said, "You have to do this." Everything was really a conversation. The appointments, especially with a home birth midwife were an hour long or more sometimes. Just amazing. I loved going to see her. So I did get that third trimester ultrasound. It was more to check to make sure that the placenta wasn't compromised in any way and whether it was in a good position. There was no accreta. That was something that we really wanted to rule out to keep me low-risk and at home. I agreed with that. I am not anti-medicine by any means. I just want to put that out there just because I chose to have a home birth. I do respect medical professionals and their jobs and the need for surgery but I also wanted to keep myself in a place, again, that I felt safe, and that's really what it came down to. So in my head, I had mentally prepared to go to 41 weeks. I think that's where I prepared to go because I had learned that many, many women, especially first-time laboring women, because I did not labor with my son, I neglected to mention that I didn't labor at all. So first-time laboring women will go into labor typically, but somewhere between 40 and 41 weeks. Post-dates is very, very common. So in my head I prepared to go to 41 weeks and we got there. We got to Christmas. We through there. I was like, I'm going to go somewhere before New Year's Eve. No, nothing. So we got to New Year's Eve and here I am in my 41st week, and I'm just trying to keep myself calm. What am I going to do? I cannot go to 42 weeks. I can't do it. Mentally, I can't do it. Physically, I can't do it. I'm going to wind up at the hospital. Of course, all of these negative thoughts are swirling. I went for another adjustment with chiropractor. I went for an acupuncture session. I went for a few of them, but I did induction points with my acupuncturist. I was just trying to do all the things-- curb walking, I did the Miles circuit and all the things to try and help this baby engage. So we get to 41 and 1 for me, which is a Monday, and I was woken up with contractions that felt like period cramps. That's how I would describe them. Around 2:00 AM, I started timing them. They were 12 to 15 minutes apart at that point, but they weren't letting up. They were consistent. I woke up my husband getting all excited like, "Oh my gosh, this might be it. Here we are." And they weren't getting closer, but they weren't easing up. So they just continued like that for the rest of the day. I had gotten up from the couch at one point, and I felt like this small trickle. I went into the bathroom, and it didn't look like anything to me. It didn't look like much. There wasn't a huge gush of fluid, nothing. So I was like, oh, I think it's probably just discharge or maybe part of my mucus plug. I have no idea. I have literally no idea. But I was like, nothing seems off to me, and it wasn't enough fluid to be concerning. I did text my midwife to update her and she mentioned to me, "A lot of women will drop into more active labor when the sun goes down. Things get quiet. It starts to get calmer. I can almost guarantee that we're going to have a baby at some point in the next 24 hours." So I go to bed that night and thinking, I'm going to wake up Tuesday probably either be having a baby or have a baby already. I woke up Tuesday, and I was still pregnant. Here I was.Meagan: You're like, this is not what I was thinking.Liz: I remember I would wake up with a contraction, but again, they were 12 to 15 minutes apart. I would go to sleep between no issues and just wake up, breathe through the contraction, and go back to sleep. And that's how the whole night went. I just couldn't believe I was still pregnant. I really was starting to get a little down on myself. I was like, these aren't coming closer together. They're not intensifying. They're not letting up, but there's nothing really happening at this point. I texted my midwife again that morning, Tuesday morning, and she said she needed to come see me for the 41-week appointment anyway, so she said that she would come by that day. She was going to come to my house. And then we get to the mid-morning. It was probably around 10-10:30 and my contractions stopped, like literally up and left. Like, what is happening right now? I can't. I was in shock, literally in shock. Especially because labor had been going on for over 24 hours. It was absurd to me. But she's like, "Don't worry. I'm going to come see you for your appointment anyway." When she arrived later that day, I did ask her to do a cervical check because at this point I'm like, "Something has had to happen whether the baby moved down into a better station or I'm a little bit more dilated or just more engagement. Whatever it is, I just want to know at this point."Meagan:: Yeah.Liz: So she did. She said, "I'll go in there. I can do a cervical check and if I can get in there, would you like me to do a membrane sweep?" And I was like, "I would love that. Anything to get this going. Let's get the party started." I'm at my house. She does the cervical check. She's like, "I can do a membrane sweep." And as she basically finishes up, I feel this gush of fluid.Meagan:: Your water.Liz: Yeah. She stopped, and I said, "Was that fluid?" She's like, "I'm going to make sure it's amniotic fluid. I have the test strip," and of course, it lit up like a highlighter. She's like, "Yes." She goes, "So guess what? We're going to go after baby today. We're going to get this. We are going to get this party started." I had kept telling her, "I can't go to 42 weeks," and she kept saying, "Let's not go to 42 weeks. You'll be fine. We're going to get it moving." And here we are. She did mention, I was at that point, about 3-4 centimeters dilated, so pretty good. But she was like, "I can offer you, I have a Foley. I can offer you a Foley balloon just to put a little bit more pressure on the cervix and maybe we can get those contractions to start to start up again, and then hopefully come closer together." Yeah. So she did. She put that Foley in and she waited with me at my house, and we just chatted. It came out a short time after. It took very little. I didn't have discomfort with that, thankfully.Meagan: That's, good. I mean, your cervix was starting to come forward. Things were going.Liz: It was going. Yeah, yeah. So again, she stayed with me and once the Foley came out, she just advised me to put on some sort of protective underwear whether it was the adult diapers or a pad because now we knew that my fluid was at least leaking, but it wasn't coming out consistently anymore. I don't think it fully came out. It wasn't a big enough gush for it to be all of the fluid, if that makes sense.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Liz: So she told me to do a few things. She's like, "I'm going to head out. You're going to call me when you need me," which, at that point, I was like, I have no idea what that means, but okay. And she's like, "Here are the things that you can do. Obviously nothing in there anymore, because we know that your amniotic sac is open.Meagan: It's broken. Liz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But she said, "You could do some pumping. You could use some clary sage essential oil." She gave me her TENS machine, and she's like, "You could try the TENS machine." I had never known that you could actually use that not for pain management. I only thought it was for pain management. So I was like, "That's so interesting." So she's like, "Do the pumping. Do that." So I did. I did one session, I think, before I put my son to bed for the last time as an only child. I did. I went and laid down with him and just knew that was probably going to be the last time that he would wake up or the last time he had woken up as an only child. And then I did it one more time, and not only did my contractions come back, I started timing them on the app, and I'm watching them get closer. They're going from 10 minutes to 8 minutes to 7 minutes to 5 minutes. I'm just watching them like, oh, my gosh. So we get to 11-11:30 at night, and it's just me and my husband there, and they are three minutes apart, and they're not easing up, and they are getting intense. So there it was. They came back.Meagan: And labor begins.Liz: Oh, it began. It began. I have so many interesting photos that my doula wound up taking. Thank God for her. Not only for the photos, but for everything that she did during the labor and delivery. It was intense. It gets intense, or in my experience, active labor when you get the breaks between the contractions and you are able to rest. I took every opportunity to rest. My doula was trying to guide me into different positions. She would help by putting a warm compress on my back at times. She would encourage even location changes in my house just to see if I could use the toilet. She told me to get into the shower at one point. I was like, "I'm too claustrophobic in here." I didn't like that, but she was trying to get me to try different things. But it was so intense. The craziest part for me was transition. That was truly an out-of-body experience. Everybody was doing these hands-on manipulations, my husband and my doula. But I could not do anything but just sway. I was standing, swaying back and forth in my living room, arms up. Why were my arms up? I have no idea, but they were up. I was doing that horse lips, breathing. Yep. It was just what my body did intuitively. I just, at that point, wasn't really getting a break. It was just insane. So that was intense. Out-of-body. I cannot replicate that level of pain in my head. There's just no doing that, but I knew that even if I needed to transfer, which I wasn't planning, but even if I needed to do that for pain management, I couldn't sit down in a car. I was at that point, so I thought to myself, the only way to this is through this. Like that is it. You've got to do it. We're just going to do it. So I knew that in my head. At no point did the pain concern me though. I mean, was it so intense and crazy? Yeah, but it was never like, there's something wrong.Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah.Liz: So that was really good. I didn't think anything negative during that time except that I was in an intense amount of pain. But it was like pain with a purpose, if that makes sense.Meagan: Productive.Liz: Yes, yes. In the meantime, my doula had set up a birth pool because I definitely wanted to try to be in the pool when I gave birth, but I wasn't sure how I'd feel about the water since I didn't really like the shower experience. It took a while because the hose kept slipping off of our faucet or whatever, so they had to boil pots of water. I just remember my doula walking back and forth. In the meantime, they did call my midwife. Somebody did, and she showed up with her assistant. So there were like three or four adults trying to hold me in transition or do some sort of physical manipulations and then pour hot water into this birth pool.Meagan: Oh my.Liz: Yeah, it was very interesting. But yeah, my contractions, at that point, were 30 seconds apart and they were lasting a minute and a half. It was intense, yes. But the pool was finally filled at 6:45 in the morning on Wednesday, and the only reason why I know that is because we have pictures of me right before I got into the pool. When I got in, my body just relaxed. I didn't think I was going to be wanting to be in a supine position at all, beyond my bottom at all because I couldn't have even tried to sit on land. But once I got into the pool, everything relaxed and it was like, oh, this is what I needed. This is what I needed. I needed some relief. I also kept telling everybody how tired I was. Anybody who walked past me, I was like, "I'm so tired." They were like, "Yeah, no. We know. We know, but we're going to keep working."Meagan: Yeah.Liz: But yeah, I was in there for a really short time and I had heard of this before, but to actually experience it is next level. I had the fetal ejection reflex.Meagan: Oh yeah.Liz: So I did not even have another cervical check. Nothing. My body just started pushing that baby down and out. I couldn't have stopped it if I wanted to. I was making the most primal sounds. I have video of it, like low guttural sounds. It was probably going on for about 15 minutes. My son walked down, I heard his little pitter-patter of his feet, and he walked down. My stairs go right into my living room where I was. And the whole time the most nerve-wracking part of having a home birth for me was that I knew he was going to be home with us, and there really wasn't an adult aside from my husband and my birth support team who I wanted in my birthing space. So there was no other option of anybody to take care of him besides my husband if it came to that. I think in the back of my head, that was the most anxiety-inducing part of this.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: So down he walks. And of course, he's hiding. He sees these three other adults in our living room. I'm in the tub groaning.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: He's a little nervous. He's a little guy. Fortunately, I think it was either the birth assistant or my doula handed him his little digital camera that I had actually bought as a gift from the baby for him. Yeah. She encouraged him. She's like, "Why don't you take some pictures? Take some pictures of mommy and daddy." The minute that she said that and he started to do that, he calmed down and just wanted to be in it and part of it.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: Yeah. And I told him, "Mommy's making some interesting noises, but I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm okay." And he was just really good about it. I feel like all that anxiety went away, thankfully.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.Liz: Yeah. I noticed my midwife was starting to gather her supplies and in my head, I actually probably said it out loud like, "Wait, we're doing this here?" And she was like, "Yeah." I was like, "I'm having a baby here in this room." She's like, "Yeah." I was like, "I don't need to go to the hospital?" She's like, "No, no, no. You're okay."And, yeah. My body just kept pushing the baby out. And it was an hour, not even an hour. It was less than an hour from when I first got into the pool until my daughter was out. My husband got to reach down and put his hands there. As she came out, he felt her really chubby cheeks. She has big cheeks like me and her ear, and brought her up to my chest. I was just in shock. I couldn't believe that I had done that. But then, of course, I look and I see that she's a girl. I just knew my mom had sent me her. That's how I felt.Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills.Liz: Thank you.Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is so beautiful. I love that your son was able to be involved, and you could feel your mom. Oh huge. Congrats. Liz: Thank you so much.Meagan: Yes. Liz: My mom's name was Faith, and so my daughter's middle name is Faye because everybody who loved my mom called her Faye. She was Aunt Faye to everybody, every cousin. So my daughter's name is Luna Faye. So she is her namesake, and she's amazing. And like you said, I can't believe she's almost two. I can't believe this was almost two years ago.Meagan: Two years ago. I know. We get so many submissions and sometimes we can't get to everybody, but it does take a while sometimes. I'm so glad that you were able to come and still record your beautiful stories and give us so much detail of each one and guidance, and the experience. Yeah. I'm just so happy for you.Thank you so much. I don't think I'll ever come down from that high, that birth high. Like, I think I'll be riding it out for the rest of my life. I'm not sure I'm going to have any more children. I think we're pretty much done, but I would love to give birth like that a thousand more times. It was the redemptive story that I needed. It helped so much with my previous birth trauma, and it made me feel so strong. I have never felt more strong and more powerful than that experience. I don't think I ever will.Meagan: Yeah, well, and there's so much that went into it-- time preparing, research, finding this team, and then even dealing with the prodromal. I mean, that could be defeating within itself. You're so tired, but then you just kept going.Liz: Yeah, I kept doing the things. I mean, that was one thing that my doula and my midwife both commented on. They were like, "You did everything that you could, and you tried to control everything that you can control, and look what happened. That's amazing."Meagan: Yeah. Thank you again so much.Liz: Thank you. I'm so happy to have been able to talk to you and share my story.Meagan: Me too. Do you have any final advice to any of our listeners?Liz: I think my ultimate advice for any birthing person is to find a provider that you align with. I think they can really make or break that experience. No matter where you choose to birth or where you wind up birthing, have that provider that you trust, that you feel like you could have open conversations with. If you say you want a natural birth, they're not going to scoff at that, and somebody who's going to have conversations with you instead of talking at you.Meagan: Yeah, I agree so much. I want to add to just vet them. If they're feeling good at first, okay, stay. And if something's happening, keep going. Keep asking the questions, and if something's not feeling right, don't hesitate to change.Liz: I know. And I not only hesitated, but I knew I had to change with my first provider, and I just didn't. I think at that point, I was so tired.Meagan: Yeah well, it's daunting. It's a daunting thing. I mean, I was there too, so no shame in it. It's just hard when you realize looking back, oh, I could have. I should have done something different. I didn't, but that's okay. We've learned, we've grown, and we've had healing experiences moving forward.Liz: Yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Originally aired in June 2019 as our 73rd episode, we still often think back to this amazing first conversation we had with Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young!Now, almost 6 years later, the information is just as relevant and impactful as it was then. This episode was a Q&A from our Facebook followers and touches on topics like statistics surrounding VBAC, uterine rupture, uterine abnormalities, insurance companies, breech vaginal delivery, high-risk pregnancies, and a powerful analogy about VBACs and weddings!Birthing Instincts PatreonBirthing BlyssNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, guys. This is one of our re-broadcasted episodes. This is an episode that, in my opinion, is a little gem in the podcast world of The VBAC Link. I really have loved this podcast ever since the date we recorded it. I am a huge fan of Dr. Stu Fischbein and Midwife Blyss and have been since the moment I knew that they existed. I absolutely love listening to their podcast and just all of the amazing things that they have and that they offer. So I wanted to rebroadcast this episode because it was quite down there. It was like our 73rd episode or something like that. And yeah, I love it so much. This week is OB week, and so I thought it'd be fun to kick-off the week with one of my favorite OB doctor's, Stuart Fischbein. So, a little recap of what this episode covers. We go over a lot. We asked for our community to ask questions for these guys, and we went through them. We didn't get to everything, so that was a bummer, but we did get to quite a bit. We talked about things like the chances of VBAC. We talked about the chances of uterine rupture and the signs of uterine rupture. We talked about inducing VBAC. We talked about uterine abnormalities, the desire of where you want to birth and figuring that out. And also, Blyss had a really great analogy to talk about what to do and how we're letting the medical world and insurance and things like that really contemplate where we or dictate where we are birthing. I love that analogy. You guys, seriously, so many questions. It's an episode that you'll probably want to put on repeat because it really is so great to listen to them, and they just speak so directly. I can't get enough of it. So I'm really excited for you guys to dive in today on this. However, I wanted to bring to your attention a couple of the new things that they've had since we recorded this way back when. I also wanted to point out that we will have updated notes in the show notes or updated links in the show notes so you can go check, them out. But one of the first things I wanted to mention was their Patreon. They have a Patreon these days, and I think that it just sounds dreamy. I think you should definitely go find in their Patreon their community through their Patreon. You can check it out at patreon.com, birthinginsinctspodcast.com and of course, you can find them on social media. You can find Dr. Stu at Birthing Instincts or his website at birthinginsincts.com. You can find Blyss and that is B-L-Y-S-S if you are looking for her at birthingblyss on Instagram or birthinblyss.com, and then of course, you can email them. They do take emails with questions and sometimes they even talk about it on their podcast. Their podcast is birthinginsinctspodcast.com, and then you can email them at birthinginsinctspodcast@gmail.com, so definitely check them out. Also, Dr. Stu offers some classes and workshops and things like that throughout the years on the topic of breech. You guys, I love them and really can't wait for you to listen to today's episode.Ladies, I cannot tell you how giddy and excited I have been for the last couple weeks since we knew that these guys were going to record with us. But we have some amazing, special guests today. We have Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young, and we want to share a little bit about them before we get into the questions that all of you guys have asked on our social media platforms.Julie: Absolutely. And when Meagan says we're excited, we are really excited.Meagan: My face is hot right now because I'm so excited.Julie: I'm so excited. Meagan was texting me last night at 11:00 in all caps totally fan-girling out over here. So Dr. Stu and midwife Blyss are pretty amazing and we know that you are going to love them just as much as we do. But before we get into it, and like Meagan said, I'm just going to read their bios so you can know just how legit they really are. First, up. Dr. Stuart Fischbein, MD is a fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and how much we love ACOG over here at The VBAC Link He's a published author of the book Fearless Pregnancy: Wisdom and Reassurance from a Doctor, a Midwife, and a Mom. He has peer-reviewed papers Home Birth with an Obstetrician, A Series of 135 Out-of-Hospital Births and Breech Births at Home, Outcomes of 60 Breech and 109 Cephalic Planned Home and Birth Center Births. Dr. Stu is a lecturer and advocate who now works directly with home birthing midwives. His website is www.birthinginsincts.com, and his podcast is Dr. Stu's Podcast. Seriously guys, you need to subscribe.Meagan: Go subscribe right now to their podcast.Yeah. The website for his podcast is drstuspodcast.com. He has an international following. He offers hope for women who cannot find supportive practitioners for VBAC and twin and breech deliveries. Guys, this is the home birth OB. He is located in California. So if you are in California hoping for VBAC, especially if you have any special circumstance like after multiple Cesareans, twins or breech presentation, run to him. Run. Go find him. He will help you. Go to that website. Blyss, Midwife Blyss. We really love them. If you haven't had a chance to hear their podcast guys, really go and give them a listen because this duo is on point. They are on fire, and they talk about all of the real topics in birth. So his partner on the podcast is Blyss Young, and she is an LM and CPM. She has been involved in the natural birth world since the birth of her first son in 1992, first as an advocate, and then as an educator. She is a mother of three children, and all of her pregnancies were supported by midwives, two of which were triumphant, empowering home births. In 2006, Blyss co-founded the Sanctuary Birth and Family Wellness Center. This was the culmination of all of her previous experience as a natural birth advocate, educator and environmentalist. The Sanctuary was the first of its kind, a full-spectrum center where midwives, doctors, and other holistic practitioners collaborated to provide thousands of Los Angeles families care during their prenatal and postpartum periods. Blyss closed the Sanctuary in 2015 to pursue her long-held dream of becoming a midwife and care for her clients in an intimate home birth practice similar to the way she was cared for during her pregnancies. I think that's , why Meagan and I both became doulas. Meagan: That's exactly why I'm a doula. Julie: We needed to provide that care just like we had been cared for. Anyway, going on. Currently, Blyss, AKA Birthing Blyss, supports families on their journey as a birth center educator, placenta encapsulator and a natural birth and family consultant and home birth midwife. She is also co-founder of Just Placentas, a company servicing all of Southern California and placenta encapsulation and other postpartum services. And as ,, she's a co-host on Dr. Stu's Podcast. Meagan: And she has a class. Don't you have a class that you're doing? Don't you have a class? Midwife Blyss: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. She has a class that she's doing. I want to just fly out because I know you're not doing it online and everything. I just want to fly there just to take your class.Midwife Blyss: Yeah, it's coming online.Meagan: It is? Yay! Great. Well, I'll be one of those first registering. Oh, did you put it in there?Julie: No, there's a little bit more.Meagan: Oh, well, I'm just getting ahead.Julie: I just want to read more of Blyss over here because I love this and I think it's so important. At the heart of all Blyss's work is a deep-rooted belief in the brilliant design of our bodies, the symbiotic relationship between baby and mother, the power of the human spirit and the richness that honoring birth as the rite of passage and resurrecting lost traditions can bring to our high-tech, low-touch lives. And isn't that true love? I love that language. It is so beautiful. If I'm not mistaken, Midwife Blyss's website is birthingblyss.com.Is that right? And Blyss is spelled with a Y. So B-L-Y-S-S, birthingblyss.com, and that's where you can find her.Midwife Blyss: Just to make it more complicated, I had to put a Y in there.Julie: Hey. I love it.Meagan: That's okay.Julie: We're in Utah so we have all sorts of weird names over here.Meagan: Yep. I love it. You're unique. Awesome. Well, we will get started.Midwife Blyss: I did read through these questions, and one of the things that I wanted to say that I thought we could let people know is that of course there's a little bit more that we need to take into consideration when we have a uterus that's already had a scar.There's a small percentage of a uterine rupture that we need to be aware of, and we need to know what are the signs and symptoms that we would need to take a different course of action. But besides that, I believe that, and Dr. Stu can speak for himself because we don't always practice together. I believe that we treat VBAC just like any other mom who's laboring. So a lot of these questions could go into a category that you could ask about a woman who is having her first baby. I don't really think that we need to differentiate between those.Meagan: I love it. Midwife Blyss: But I do think that in terms of preparation, there are some special considerations for moms who have had a previous Cesarean, and probably the biggest one that I would point to is the trauma.Julie: Yes.Midwife Blyss: And giving space to and processing the trauma and really helping these moms have a provider that really believes in them, I think is one of the biggest factors to them having success. Meagan: Absolutely. Midwife Blyss: So that's one I wanted to say before you started down the question.Meagan: Absolutely. We have an online class that we provide for VBAC prep, and that's the very first section. It's mentally preparing and physically preparing because there's so much that goes into that. So I love that you started out with that.Julie: Yeah. A lot of these women who come searching for VBAC and realize that there's another way besides a repeat Cesarean are processing a lot of trauma, and a lot of them realized that their Cesarean might have been prevented had they known better, had a different provider, prepared differently, and things like that. Processing that and realizing that is heavy, and it's really important to do before getting into anything else, preparation-wise.Meagan: Yeah.Midwife Blyss: One of the best things I ever had that was a distinction that one of my VBAC moms made for me, and I passed it on as I've cared for other VBAC mom is for her, the justification, or I can't find the right word for it, but she basically said that that statement that we hear so often of, "Yeah, you have trauma from this, or you're not happy about how your birth went, but thank God your baby is healthy." And she said it felt so invalidating for her because, yes, she also was happy, of course, that her baby was safe, but at the same time, she had this experience and this trauma that wasn't being acknowledged, and she felt like it was just really being brushed away.Julie: Ah, yeah.Midwife Blyss: I think really giving women that space to be able to say, "Yes, that's valid. It's valid how you feel." And it is a really important part of the process and having a successful vaginal delivery this go around.Dr. Stu: I tend to be a lightning rod for stories. It's almost like I have my own personal ICAN meeting pretty much almost every day, one-on-one. I get contacted or just today driving. I'm in San Diego today and just driving down here, I talked to two people on the phone, both of whom Blyss really just touched on it is that they both are wanting to have VBACs with their second birth. They were seeing practitioners who are encouraging them to be induced for this reason or that reason. And they both have been told the same thing that Blyss just mentioned that if you end up with a repeat Cesarean, at least you're going to have a healthy baby. Obviously, it's very important. But the thing is, I know it's a cliche, but it's not just about the destination. It's about the journey as well. And one of the things that we're not taught in medical school and residency program is the value of the process. I mean, we're very much mechanical in the OB world, and our job is to get the baby out and head it to the pediatric department, and then we're done with it. If we can get somebody induced early, if we can decide to do a C-section sooner than we should, there's a lot of incentives to do that and to not think about the process and think about the person. There's another cliche which we talk about all the time. Blyss, and I've said it many times. It's that the baby is the candy and the mother's the wrapper. I don't know if you've heard that one, but when the baby comes out, the mother just gets basically tossed aside and her experience is really not important to the medical professionals that are taking care of her in the hospital setting, especially in today's world where you have a shift mentality and a lot of people are being taken care of by people they didn't know.You guys mentioned earlier the importance of feeling safe and feeling secure in whatever setting you're in whether that's at home or in the hospital. Because as Blyss knows, I get off on the mammalian track and you talk about mammals. They just don't labor well when they're anxious.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: When the doctor or the health professional is anxious and they're projecting their anxiety onto the mom and the family, then that stuff is brewing for weeks, if not months and who knows what it's actually doing inside, but it's certainly not going to lead to the likelihood of or it's going to diminish the likelihood of a successful labor.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. We talk about that. We go over that a lot. Like, birth is very instinctual and very primal, and it operates a very fundamental core level. And whenever mom feels threatened or anxious or, or anything like that, it literally can st or stop labor from progressing or even starting.Meagan: Yeah, exactly. When I was trying to VBAC with my first baby, my doctor came in and told my husband to tell me that I needed to wake up and smell the coffee because it wasn't happening for me. And that was the last, the last contraction I remember feeling was right before then and my body just shut off. I just stopped because I just didn't feel safe anymore or protected or supported. Yeah, it's very powerful which is something that we love so much about you guys, because I don't even know you. I've just listened to a million of your podcasts, and I feel so safe with you right now. I'm like, you could fly here right now and deliver my baby because so much about you guys, you provide so much comfort and support already, so I'm sure all of your clients can feel that from you.Julie: Absolutely.Dr. Stu: Yeah. I just would like to say that, know, I mean, the introduction was great. Which one of you is Julie? Which one's Meagan?Julie: I'm Julie.Meagan: And I'm Meagan.Dr. Stu: Okay, great. All right, so Julie was reading the introduction that she was talking about how if you have a breech, you have twins, if you have a VBAC, you have all these other things just come down to Southern California and care of it. But I'm not a cowboy. All right? Even though I do more things than most of my colleagues in the profession do, I also say no to people sometimes. I look at things differently. Just because someone has, say chronic hypertension, why can't they have a home birth? The labor is just the labor. I mean, if her blood pressure gets out of control, yeah, then she has to go to the hospital. But why do you need to be laboring in the hospital or induced early if everything is fine? But this isn't for everybody.We want to make that very clear. You need to find a supportive team or supportive practitioner who's willing to be able to say yes and no and give you it with what we call a true informed consent, so that you have the right to choose which way to go and to do what's reasonable. Our ethical obligation is to give you reasonable choices and then support your informed decision making. And sometimes there are things that aren't reasonable. Like for instance, an example that I use all the time is if a woman has a breech baby, but she has a placenta previa, a vaginal delivery is not an option for you. Now she could say, well, I want one and I'm not going to have a C-section.Julie: And then you have the right to refuse that.Dr. Stu: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, that's never going to happen because we have a good communication with our patients. Our communication is such that we develop a trust over the period of time. Sometimes I don't meet people until I'm actually called to their house by a midwife to come assist with a vacuum or something like that. But even then, the midwives and stuff, because I'm sort of known that people have understanding. And then when I'm sitting there, as long as the baby isn't trouble, I will explain to them, here's what's going to happen. Here's how we're going to do it. Here's what's going on. The baby's head to look like this. It not going be a problem. It'll be better in 12 hours. But I go through all this stuff and I say, I'm going to touch you now. Is that okay? I ask permission, and I do all the things that the midwives have taught me, but I never really learned in residency program. They don't teach this stuff.Julie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we go over a lot to in our classes is finding a provider who has a natural tendency to treat his patients the way that you want to be treated. That way, you'll have a lot better time when you birth because you're not having to ask them to do anything that they're not comfortable with or that they're not prepared for or that they don't know how to do. And so interviewing providers and interview as many as you need to with these women. And find the provider whose natural ways of treating his clients are the ways that you want to be treated.Dr. Stu: And sometimes in a community, there's nobody.Julie: Yeah, yeah, that's true.Meagan: That's what's so hard.Dr. Stu: And if it's important to you, if it's important to you, then you have to drive on. Julie: Or stand up for yourself and fight really hard.Meagan: I have a client from Russia. She's flying here in two weeks. She's coming all the way to Salt Lake City, Utah to have her baby. We had another client from Russia.Julie: You have another Russian client?Meagan: Yeah. Julie: That's awesome. Meagan: So, yeah. It's crazy. Sometimes you have to go far, far distances, and sometimes you've got them right there. You just have to search. You just have to find them.So it's tricky.Midwife Blyss: Maybe your insurance company is not gonna pay for it.Meagan: Did you say my company's not gonna pay for it?Midwife Blyss: And maybe your insurance company.Meagan: Oh, sure. Yeah, exactly.Midwife Blyss: You can't rely on them to be the ones who support some of these decisions that are outside of the standards of care. You might have to really figure out how to get creative around that area.Meagan: Absolutely.Yeah. So in the beginning, Blyss, you talked about noticing the signs, and I know that's one of the questions that we got on our Instagram, I believe. Birthing at home for both of you guys, what signs for a VBAC mom are signs enough where you talk about different care?.Dr. Stu: I didn't really understand that. Say that again what you were saying.Meagan: Yep. Sorry. So one of the questions on our Instagram was what are the signs of uterine rupture when you're at home that you look for and would transfer care or talk about a different plan of action?Dr. Stu: Okay. Quite simply, some uterine ruptures don't have any warning that they're coming.There's nothing you can do about those. But before we get into what you can feel, just let's review the numbers real briefly so that people have a realistic viewpoint. Because I'm sure if a doctor doesn't want to do a VBAC, you'll find a reason not to do a VBAC. You'll use the scar thickness or the pregnancy interval or whatever. They'll use something to try to talk you out of it or your baby's too big or this kind of thing. We can get into that in a little bit. But when there are signs, the most common sign you would feel is that there'd be increasing pain super-cubically that doesn't go away between contractions. It's a different quality of pain or sensation. It's pain. It's really's becoming uncomfortable. You might start to have variables when you didn't have them before. So the baby's heart rate, you might see heart rate decelerations. Rarely, you might find excessive bleeding, but that's usually not a sign of I mean that's a sign of true rupture.Midwife Blyss: Loss of station.Dr. Stu: Those are things you look for, but again, if you're not augmenting someone, if someone doesn't have an epidural where they don't have sensation, if they're not on Pitocin, these things are very unlikely to happen. I was going to get to the numbers. The numbers are such that the quoted risk of uterine rupture, which is again that crappy word. It sounds like a tire blowing out of the freeway. It is about 1 in 200. But only about 5 to 16%. And even one study said 3%. But let's just even take 16% of those ruptures will result in an outcome that the baby is damaged or dead. Okay, that's about 1 in 6. So the actual risk is about 1 in 6 times 1 in 200 or 1 in 1200 up to about 1 in 4000.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: So those are, those are the risks. They're not the 1 in 200 or the 2%. I actually had someone tell some woman that she had a 30% chance of rupture.Julie: We've had somebody say 50%.Meagan: We have?Julie: Yeah. Jess, our 50 copy editor-- her doctor told her that if she tries to VBAC, she has a 50% chance of rupture and she will die. Yeah.Meagan: Wow.Julie: Pretty scary. Dr. Stu: And by the way, a maternal mortality from uterine rupture is extremely rare.Julie: Yeah, we were just talking about that.Dr. Stu: That doctor is wrong on so many accounts. I don't even know where to begin on that.Julie: I know.Dr. Stu: Yeah. See that's the thing where even if someone has a classical Cesarean scar, the risk of rupture isn't 50%.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: So I don't know where they come up with those sorts of numbers.Julie: Yeah, I think it's just their comfort level and what they're familiar with and what they know and what they understand. I think a lot of these doctors, because she had a premature Cesarean, and so that's why he was a little, well, a lot more fear-based. Her Cesarean happened, I think, around 32 weeks. We still know that you can still attempt to VBAC and still have a really good chance of having a successful one. But a lot of these providers just don't do it.Dr. Stu: Yeah. And another problem is you can't really find out what somebody's C-section rate is. I mean, you can find out your hospital C-section rate. They can vary dramatically between different physicians, so you really don't know. You'd like to think that physicians are honest. You'd like to think that they're going to tell you the truth. But if they have a high C-section rate and it's a competitive world, they're not going to. And if you're with them, you don't really have a choice anyway.Julie: So there's not transparency on the physician level.Dr. Stu: So Blyss was talking briefly about the fact that your insurance may not pay for it. Blyss, why don't you elaborate on that because you do that point so well.Midwife Blyss: Are you talking about the wedding?Dr. Stu: I love your analogy. It's a great analogy.Midwife Blyss: I'm so saddened sometimes when people talk to me about that they really want this option and especially VBACs. I just have a very special tender place in my heart for VBAC because I overcame something from my first to second birth that wasn't a Cesarean. But it felt like I had been led to mistrust my body, and then I had a triumphant second delivery. So I really understand how that feels when a woman is able to reclaim her body and have a vaginal delivery. But just in general, in terms of limiting your options based on what your insurance will pay for, we think about the delivery of our baby and or something like a wedding where it's this really special day. I see that women or families will spend thousands and thousands of dollars and put it on a credit card and figure out whatever they need to do to have this beautiful wedding. But somehow when it comes to the birth of their baby, they turn over all their power to this insurance company.And so we used to do this talk at the sanctuary and I used to say, "What if we had wedding insurance and you paid every year into this insurance for your wedding, and then when the wedding came, they selected where you went and you didn't like it and they put you in a dress that made you look terrible and the food was horrible and the music was horrible and they invited all these people you didn't want to be there?"Julie: But it's a network.Midwife Blyss: Would you really let that insurance company, because it was paid for, dictate how your wedding day was? Julie: That's a good analogy.Midwife Blyss: You just let it all go.Meagan: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. And it's so true. It is so true.Julie: And we get that too a lot about hiring a doula. Oh, I can't hire a doula. It's too expensive. We get that a lot because people don't expect to pay out-of-pocket for their births. When you're right, it's just perceived completely differently when it should be one of the biggest days of your life. I had three VBACs at home. My first was a necessary, unnecessary Cesarean.I'm still really uncertain about that, to be honest with you. But you better believe my VBACs at home, we paid out of pocket for a midwife. Our first two times, it was put on a credit card. I had a doula, I had a birth photographer, I had a videographer. My first VBAC, I had two photographers there because it was going to be documented because it was so important to me. And we sold things on eBay. We sold our couches, and I did some babysitting just to bring in the money.Obviously, I hired doulas because it was so important to me to not only have the experience that I wanted and that I deserved, but I wanted it documented and I wanted it to be able to remember it well and look back on it fondly. We see that especially in Utah. I think we have this culture where women just don't-- I feel like it's just a national thing, but I think in Utah, we tend to be on the cheap side just culturally and women don't see the value in that. It's hard because it's hard to shift that mindset to see you are important. You are worth it. What if you could have everything you wanted and what if you knew you could be treated differently? Would you think about how to find the way to make that work financially? And I think if there's just that mindset shift, a lot of people would.Meagan: Oh, I love that.Dr. Stu: If you realize if you have to pay $10,000 out of pocket or $5,000 or whatever to at least have the opportunity, and you always have the hospital as a backup. But 2 or 3 years from now, that $5,000 isn't going to mean anything.Julie: Yeah, nothing.Meagan: But that experience is with you forever.Dr. Stu: So yeah, women may have to remember the names of their children when they're 80 years old, but they'll remember their birth.Julie: Well, with my Cesarean baby, we had some complications and out-of-pocket, I paid almost $10,000 for him and none of my home births, midwives, doula, photography and videography included cost over $7,000.Meagan: My Cesarean births in-hospital were also more expensive than my birth center births.Julie: So should get to questions.Dr. Stu: Let's get to some of the questions because you guys some really good questions.Meagan: Yes.Dr. Stu: Pick one and let's do it.Meagan: So let's do Lauren. She was on Facebook. She was our very first question, and she said that she has some uterine abnormalities like a bicornuate uterus or a separate uterus or all of those. They want to know how that impacts VBAC. She's had two previous Cesareans due to a breech presentation because of her uterine abnormality.Julie: Is that the heart-shaped uterus? Yeah.Dr. Stu: Yeah. You can have a septate uterus. You can have a unicornuate uterus. You can have a double uterus.Julie: Yeah. Two separate uteruses.Dr. Stu: Right. The biggest problem with a person with an abnormal uterine shape or an anomaly is a couple of things. One is malpresentation as this woman experienced because her two babies were breech. And two, is sometimes a retained placenta is more common than women that have a septum, that sort of thing. Also, it can cause preterm labor and growth restriction depending on the type of anomaly of the uterus. Now, say you get to term and your baby is head down, or if it's breech in my vicinity. But if it's head down, then the chance of VBAC for that person is really high. I mean, it might be a slightly greater risk of Cesarean section, but not a statistically significant risk. And then the success rate for home birth VBACs, if you look at the MANA stats or even my own stats which are not enough to make statistical significance in a couple of papers that I put out, but the MANA stats show that it's about a 93% success rate for VBACS in the midwifery model, whereas in the hospital model, it can be as low as 17% up to the 50s or 60%, but it's not very high. And that's partly because of the model by which you're cared for. So the numbers that I'm quoting and the success rates I'm quoting are again, assuming that you have a supportive practitioner in a supportive environment, every VBAC is going to have diminished chance of success in a restrictive or tense environment. But unicornuate uterus or septate uterus is not a contraindication to VBAC, and it's not an indication of breech delivery if somebody knows how to do a breech VBAC too.Julie: Right.Dr. Stu: So Lauren, that would be my answer to to your question is that no, it's not a contraindication and that if you have the right practitioner you can certainly try to labor and your risk of rupture is really not more significant than a woman who has a normal-shaped uterus.Julie: Good answer.Meagan: So I want to spin off that really quick. It's not a question, but I've had a client myself that had two C-sections, and her baby was breech at 37 weeks, and the doctor said he absolutely could not turn the baby externally because her risk of rupture was so increasingly high. So would you agree with that or would you disagree with that?D No, no, no. Even an ACOG statement on external version and breech says that a previous uterine scar is not a contraindication to attempting an external version.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Stu: Now actually, if we obviously had more breech choices, then there'd be no reason to do an external version.The main reason that people try an external version which can sometimes be very uncomfortable, and depending on the woman and her parody and certain other factors, their success rate cannot be very good is the only reason they do it because the alternative is a Cesarean in 95% of locations in the country.Meagan: Okay, well that's good to know.Dr. Stu: But again, one of the things I would tell people to do is when they're hearing something from their position that just sort of rocks the common sense vote and doesn't sort of make sense, look into it. ACOG has a lot. I think you can just go Google some of the ACOG clinical guidelines or practice guidelines or clinical opinions or whatever they call them. You can find and you can read through, and they summarize them at the end on level A, B, and C evidence, level A being great evidence level C being what's called consensus opinion. The problem with consensus, with ACOG's guidelines is that about 2/3 of them are consensus opinion because they don't really have any data on them. When you get bunch of academics together who don't like VBAC or don't like home birth or don't like breech, of course a consensus opinion is going to be, "Well, we're not going to think those are a good idea." But much to their credit lately, they're starting to change their tune. Their most recent VBAC guideline paper said that if your hospital can do labor and delivery, your hospital can do VBAC.Julie: Yes.Dr. Stu: That's huge. There was immediately a whole fiasco that went on. So any hospital that's doing labor and delivery should be able to do a VBAC. When they say they can't or they say our insurance company won't let them, it's just a cowardly excuse because maybe it's true, but they need to fight for your right because most surgical emergencies in labor delivery have nothing to do with a previous uterine scar.Julie: Absolutely.Dr. Stu: They have to do with people distress or placental abruption or cord prolapse. And if they can handle those, they can certainly handle the one in 1200. I mean, say a hospital does 20 VBACs a year or 50 VBACs a year. You'll take them. Do the math. It'll take them 25 years to have a rupture.Meagan: Yeah. It's pretty powerful stuff.Midwife Blyss: I love when he does that.Julie: Me too. I'm a huge statistics junkie and data junkie. I love the numbers.Meagan: Yeah. She loves numbers.Julie: Yep.Meagan: I love that.Julie: Hey, and 50 VBACs a year at 2000, that would be 40 years actually, right?Dr. Stu: Oh, look at what happened. So say that again. What were the numbers you said?Julie: So 1 in 2000 ruptures are catastrophic and they do 50 VBACs a year, wouldn't that be 40 years?Dr. Stu: But I was using the 1200 number.Julie: Oh, right, right, right, right.Dr. Stu: So that would be 24 years.Julie: Yeah. Right. Anyways, me and you should sit down and just talk. One day. I would love to have lunch with you.Dr. Stu: Let's talk astrology and astronomy.Yes.Dr. Stu: Who's next?Midwife Blyss: Can I make a suggestion?There was another woman. Let's see where it is. What's the likelihood that a baby would flip? And is it reasonable to even give it a shot for a VBA2C. How do you guys say that?Meagan: VBAC after two Cesareans.Midwife Blyss: I need to know the lingo. So, I would say it's very unlikely for a baby to flip head down from a breech position in labor. It doesn't mean it's impossible.Dr. Stu: With a uterine septum, it's almost never going to happen. Bless is right on. Even trying an external version on a woman with the uterine septum when the baby's head is up in one horn and the placenta in the other horn and they're in a frank breech position, that's almost futile to do that, especially if a woman is what I call a functional primary, or even a woman who's never labored before.Julie: Right. That's true.Meagan: And then Napoleon said, what did she say? Oh, she was just talking about this. She's planning on a home birth after two Cesareans supported by a midwife and a doula. Research suggests home birth is a reasonable and safe option for low-risk women. And she wants to know in reality, what identifies low risk?Midwife Blyss: Well, I thought her question was hilarious because she says it seems like everybody's high-risk too. Old, overweight.Julie: Yeah, it does. It does, though.Dr. Stu: Well, immediately, when you label someone high-risk, you make them high-risk.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: Because now you've planted seeds of doubt inside their head. So I would say, how do you define high-risk? I mean, is 1 in 1200 high risk?Julie: Nope.Dr. Stu: It doesn't seem high-risk to me. But again, I mean, we do a lot of things in our life that are more dangerous than that and don't consider them high-risk. So I think the term high-risk is handed about way too much.And it's on some false or just some random numbers that they come up with. Blyss has heard this before. I mean, she knows everything I say that comes out of my mouth. The numbers like 24, 35, 42. I mean, 24 hours of ruptured membranes. Where did that come from? Yeah, or some people are saying 18 hours. I mean, there's no science on that. I mean, bacteria don't suddenly look at each other and go, "Hey Ralph, it's time to start multiplying."Julie: Ralph.Meagan: I love it.Julie: I'm gonna name my bacteria Ralph.Meagan: It's true. And I was told after 18 hours, that was my number.Dr. Stu: Yeah, again, so these numbers, there are papers that come out, but they're not repetitive. I mean, any midwife worth her salt has had women with ruptured membranes for sometimes two, three, or four days.Julie: Yep.Midwife Blyss: And as long as you're not sticking your fingers in there, and as long as their GBS might be negative or that's another issue.Meagan: I think that that's another question. That's another question. Yep.Dr. Stu: Yeah, I'll get to that right now. I mean, if some someone has a ruptured membrane with GBS, and they don't go into labor within a certain period of time, it's not unreasonable to give them the pros and cons of antibiotics and then let them make that decision. All right? We don't force people to have antibiotics. We would watch for fetal tachycardia or fever at that point, then you're already behind the eight ball. So ideally, you'd like to see someone go into labor sooner. But again, if they're still leaking, if there are no vaginal exams, the likelihood of them getting group B strep sepsis or something on the baby is still not very high. And the thing about antibiotics that I like to say is that if I was gonna give antibiotics to a woman, I think it's much better to give a woman an antibiotics at home than in the hospital. And the reason being is because at home, the baby's still going to be born into their own environment and mom's and dad's bacteria and the dog's bacteria and the siblings' bacteria where in the hospital, they're going to go to the nursery for observation like they generally do, and they're gonna be exposed to different bacteria unless they do these vaginal seeding, which isn't really catching on universally yet where you take a swab of mom's vaginal bacteria before the C-section.Midwife Blyss: It's called seeding.Dr. Stu: Right. I don't consider ruptured membrane something that again would cause me to immediately say something where you have to change your plan. You individualize your care in the midwifery model.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: You look at every patient. You look at their history. You look at their desires. You look at their backup situation, their transport situation, and that sort of thing. You take it all into account. Now, there are some women in pregnancy who don't want to do a GBS culture.Ignorance is bliss. The other spelling of bliss.Julie: Hi, Blyss.Dr. Stu: But the reason that at least I still encourage people to do it is because for any reason, if that baby gets transferred to the hospital during labor or after and you don't have a GBS culture on the chart, they're going to give antibiotics. They're going to treat it as GBS positive and they're also going to think you're irresponsible.And they're going to have that mentality that of oh, here's another one of those home birth crazy people, blah, blah, blah.Julie: That just happened to me in January. I had a client like that. I mean, anyways, never mind. It's not the time. Midwife Blyss: Can I say something about low-risk?Julie: Yes. Midwife Blyss: I think there are a lot of different factors that go into that question. One being what are the state laws? Because there are things that I would consider low-risk and that I feel very comfortable with, but that are against the law. And I'm not going to go to jail.Meagan: Right. We want you to still be Birthing Bless.Midwife Blyss: As, much as I believe in a woman's right to choose, I have to draw the line at what the law is. And then the second is finding a provider that-- obviously, Dr. Stu feels very comfortable with things that other providers may not necessarily feel comfortable with.Julie: Right.Midwife Blyss: And so I think it's really important, as you said in the beginning of the show, to find a provider who takes the risk that you have and feels like they can walk that path with you and be supportive. I definitely agree with what Dr. Stu was saying about informed consent. I had a client who was GBS positive, declined antibiotics and had a very long rupture. We continued to walk that journey together. I kept giving informed consent and kept giving informed consent. She had such trust and faith that it actually stretched my comfort level. We had to continually talk about where we were in this dance. But to me, that feels like what our job is, is to give them information about the pros and cons and let them decide for themselves.And I think that if you take a statistic, I'm picking an arbitrary number, and there's a 94% chance of success and a 4% chance that something could go really wrong, one family might look at that and say, "Wow, 94%, this is neat. That sounds like a pretty good statistic," and the other person says, "4% makes me really uncomfortable. I need to minimize." I think that's where you have to have the ability, given who you surround yourself with and who your provider is, to be able to say, "This is my choice," and it's being supported. So it is arbitrary in a lot of ways except for when it comes to what the law is.Julie: Yeah, that makes sense.Meagan: I love that. Yeah. Julie: Every state has their own law. Like in the south, it's illegal like in lots of places in the South, I think in Washington too, that midwives can't support home birth if you're VBAC. I mean there are lots of different legislative rules. Why am I saying legislative? Look at me, I'm trying to use fancy words to impress you guys. There are lots of different laws in different states and, and some of them are very evidence-based and some laws are broad and they leave a lot of room for practices, variation and gray areas. Some are so specific that they really limit a woman's option in that state.Dr. Stu: We can have a whole podcast on the legal decision-making process and a woman's right to autonomy of her body and the choices and who gets to decide that would be. Right now, the vaccine issue is a big issue, but also pregnancy and restricting women's choices of these things. If you want to do another one down the road, I would love to talk on that subject with you guys.Julie: Perfect.Meagan: We would love that.Julie: Yeah. I think it's your most recent episode. I mean as of the time of this recording. Mandates Kill Medicine. What is that the name?Dr. Stu: Mandates Destroy Medicine.Julie: Yeah. Mandates Destroy Medicine. Dr. Stu: It's wonderful.Julie: Yeah, I love it. I was just listening to it today again.Dr. Stu: well it does because it makes the physicians agents of the state.Julie: Yeah, it really does.Meagan: Yeah. Well. And if you give us another opportunity to do this with you, heck yeah.Julie: Yeah. You can just be a guest every month.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Stu: So I don't think I would mind that at all, actually.Meagan: We would love it.Julie: Yeah, we would seriously love it. We'll keep in touch.Meagan: So, couple other questions I'm trying to see because we jumped through a few that were the same. I know one asks about an overactive pelvic floor, meaning too strong, not too weak. She's wondering if that is going to affect her chances of having a successful VBAC.Julie: And do you see that a lot with athletes, like people that are overtrained or that maybe are not overtrained, but who train a lot and weightlifters and things like that, where their pelvic floor is too strong? I've heard of that before.Midwife Blyss: Yep, absolutely. there's a chiropractor here in LA, Dr. Elliot Berlin, who also has his own podcast and he talks–Meagan: Isn't Elliott Berlin Heads Up?Dr. Stu: Yeah. He's the producer of Heads Up.Meagan: Yeah, I listened to your guys' special episode on that too. But yeah, he's wonderful.Midwife Blyss: Yeah. So, again, I think this is a question that just has more to do with vaginal delivery than it does necessarily about the fact that they've had a previous Cesarean. So I do believe that the athletic pelvis has really affected women's deliveries. I think that during pregnancy we can work with a pelvic floor specialist who can help us be able to realize where the tension is and how to do some exercises that might help alleviate some of that. We have a specialist here in L.A. I don't know if you guys do there that I would recommend people to. And then also, maybe backing off on some of the athletic activities that that woman is participating in during her pregnancy and doing things more like walking, swimming, yoga, stretching, belly dancing, which was originally designed for women in labor, not to seduce men. So these are all really good things to keep things fluid and soft because you want things to open and release rather than being tense.Meagan: I love that.Dr. Stu: I agree. I think sometimes it leads more to not generally so much of dilation. Again, a friend of mine, David Hayes, he's a home birth guy in South Carolina, doesn't like the idea of using stages of labor. He wants to get rid of that. I think that's an interesting thought. We have a meeting this November in Wisconsin. We're gonna have a bunch of thought-provoking things going on over there.Dr. Stu: Is it all men talking about this? Midwife Blyss: Oh, hell no.Julie: Let's get more women. Dr. Stu: No, no, no, no, no.Being organized By Cynthia Calai. Do you guys know who Cynthia is? She's been a midwife for 50 years. She's in Wisconsin. She's done hundreds of breeches. Anyway, the point being is that I think that I find that a lot of those people end up getting instrumented like vacuums, more commonly. Yeah. So Blyss is right. I mean, if there are people who are very, very tight down there. The leviators and the muscles inside are very tight which is great for life and sex and all that other stuff, but yeah, you need to learn how to be able to relax them too.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: So I know we're running short on time, but this question that came through today, I loved it. It said, "Could you guys both replicate your model of care nationwide somehow?" She said, "How do I advocate effectively for home birth access and VBAC access in a state that actively prosecutes home birth and has restrictions on midwifery practice?" She specifically said she's in Nebraska, but we hear this all over the place. VBAC is not allowed. You cannot birth at home, and people are having unassisted births.Julie: Because they can't find the support.Meagan: They can't find the support and they are too scared to go to the hospital or birth centers. And so, yeah, the question is--Julie: What can women do in their local communities to advocate for positive change and more options in birth where they are more restricted?Dr. Stu: Blyss. Midwife Blyss: I wish I had a really great answer for this. I think that the biggest thing is to continue to talk out loud. And I'm really proud of you ladies for creating this podcast and doing the work that you do. Julie: Thanks.Midwife Blyss: I always believed when we had the Sanctuary that it really is about the woman advocating for herself. And the more that hospitals and doctors are being pushed by women to say, "We need this as an option because we're not getting the work," I think is really important. I support free birth, and I think that most of the women and men who decide to do that are very well educated.Julie: Yeah, for sure.Midwife Blyss: It is actually really very surprising for midwives to see that sometimes they even have better statistics than we do. But it saddens me that there's no choice. And, a woman who doesn't totally feel comfortable with doing that is feeling forced into that decision. So I think as women, we need to support each other, encourage each other, continue to talk out loud about what it is that we want and need and make this be a very important decision that a woman makes, and it's a way of reclaiming the power. I'm not highly political. I try and stay out of those arenas. And really, one of my favorite quotes from a reverend that I have been around said, "Be for something and against nothing." I really believe that the more. Julie: I like that.Midwife Blyss: Yeah, the more that we speak positively and talk about positive change and empowering ourselves and each other, it may come slowly, but that change will continue to come.Julie: Yeah, yeah.Dr. Stu: I would only add to that that I think unfortunately, in any country, whether it's a socialist country or a capitalist country, it's economics that drives everything. If you look at countries like England or the Netherlands, you find that they have, a really integrated system with midwives and doctors collaborating, and the low-risk patients are taken care of by the midwives, and then they consult with doctors and midwives can transfer from home to hospital and continue their care in that system, the national health system. I'm not saying that's the greatest system for somebody who's growing old and has arthritis or need spinal surgery or something like that, but for obstetrics, that sort of system where you've taken out liability and you've taken out economic incentive. All right, so how do you do that in our system? It's not very easy to do because everything is economically driven. One of the things that I've always advocated for is if you want to lower the C-section rate, increase the VBAC rate. It would be really simple for insurance companies, until we have Bernie Sanders with universal health care. But while we have insurance companies, if they would just pay twice as much for a vaginal birth and half as much for a Cesarean birth, then finally, VBACS and breech deliveries would be something. Oh, maybe we should start. We should be more supportive of those things because it's all about the money. But as long as the hospital gets paid more, doctors don't really get paid more. It's expediency for the doctor. He gets it done and goes home. But the hospital, they get paid a lot more, almost twice as much for a C-section than you do for vaginal birth. What's the incentive for the chief financial officer of any hospital to say to the OB department, "We need to lower our C-section rate?" One of the things that's happening are programs that insurance, and I forgot what it's called, but where they're trying, in California, they're trying to lower the primary C-section rate. There's a term for it where it's an acronym with four initials. Blyss, do you know what I'm talking about?Midwife Blyss: No. Dr. Stu: It's an acronym about a first-time mom. We're trying to avoid those C-sections.Julie: Yeah, the primary Cesarean.Dr. Stu: It's an acronym anyway, nonetheless. So they're in the right direction. Most hospitals are in the 30% range. They'd like to lower to 27%. That's a start.One of the ways to really do that is to support VBAC, and treat VBAC as Blyss said at the very beginning of the podcast is that a VBAC is just a normal labor. When people lump VBAC in with breech in twins, it's like, why are you doing that? Breech in twins requires special skill. VBAC requires a special skill also, which is a skill of doing nothing.Julie: Yeah, it's hard.Dr. Stu: It's hard for obstetricians and labor and delivery nurses and stuff like that to do nothing. But ultimately, VBAC is just a vaginal birth and doesn't require any special skill. When a doctor says, "We don't do VBAC, what he's basically saying, or she, is that I don't do vaginal deliveries," which is stupid because VBAC is just a vaginal delivery.Julie: Yeah, that's true.Meagan: Such a powerful point right there.Julie: Guys. We loved chatting with you so much. We wish we could talk with you all day long.Meagan: I would. All day long. I just want to be a fly on your walls if I could.Julie: If you're ever in Salt Lake City again--Meagan: He just was. Did you know about this?Julie: Say hi to Adrienne, but also connect with us because we would love to meet you. All right, well guys, everyone, all of our listeners, Women of Strength, we are going to drop all the information that you need to find Midwife Blyss and Dr. Stu-- their website, their podcast, and all of that in our show notes. So yeah, now you can find our podcast. You can even listen to our podcast on our website at thevbaclink.com/podcast. You can play episodes right from there. So if you don't know-- well, if you're listening to this podcast, then you probably have a podcast player already. But you know what? My mom still doesn't know what a podcast is, so I'm just gonna have to start sending her links right to our page.Meagan: Yep, just listen to us wherever and leave us a review and head over to Dr. Stu's Podcast and leave them a review.Julie: Subscribe because you're gonna love him, but don't stop listening to him us because you love us too. Remember that.Dr. Stu: I want to thank everybody who wrote in, and I'm sorry we didn't get to answer every question. We tend to blabber on a little bit asking these important questions, and hopefully you guys will have us back on again.Meagan: We would love to have you.Julie: Absolutely.Meagan: Yep, we will.Julie: Absolutely.Meagan: YeahClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of The VBAC Link Podcast, join Julie as she sits down with Ambrosia to discuss her journey from a teen pregnancy to achieving a VBAC after two C-sections. Ambrosia shares her unique experiences, the challenges she faced, and the importance of advocating for herself in the medical system. Julie and Ambrosia give insights into the myth of a small pelvis and preeclampsia. How is a small pelvis really diagnosed? Does preeclampsia always mean a medically necessary C-section? Listen to find out!The VBAC Link Blog: Overuse of the CPD DiagnosisCoterie Diapers - Use Code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right, Good morning, good morning, good morning. It is Julie here today with The VBAC Link Podcast, and I'm really excited about our story today. I have with me Ambrosia. Is Ambrosia how you say it?Ambrosia: Yes.Julie: Okay, good. I didn't want to go the whole episode without saying your name wrong. Okay, we have it. Ambrosia. I'm really excited because today we have a VBAC after two C-section story. I love especially these stories. Her first pregnancy was a teen pregnancy, and I am really interested in hearing her experience about that because I know that it's a very unique circumstance and a very different journey as a teenager, and there are unique challenges associated with that. So I'm excited to hear more about that and about all of her journey through all of her births. But before I do that, I'm going to share a Review of the Week. This one is a throwback to 2020. I was looking through our spreadsheet and saw that we haven't done that one yet, so I'm going to throw all the way back almost four years ago. This review was on Apple Podcasts, and it says "Meagan and Julie and the women sharing their birth stories are amazing. They share real life stories of all kinds of births and helpful, useful, practical information that has really helped me feel prepared for my VBAC which I hope will happen very soon. I highly recommend listening to this podcast to be informed and encouraged. I also highly recommend their online VBAC course. It's self-paced and offers so much valuable information and good resources. It has really helped me feel ready and empowered to birth my baby. Thank you for all you awesome ladies do for women and the birth world."I will say thank you so much for sharing a review. If you haven't already, take some time, pause the podcast right now. Go ahead and leave us review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and we might just be reading your review on the podcast one day.All right, let's get back to it. I'm really excited to meet Ambrosia today and hear her stories. Ambrosia is a 27-year-old mother of three boys. Boy Mom, that's super exciting. They are ages 11, 5, and 1 month. I'm really excited to hear, especially, about a fresh VBAC after two C-section story. She is from El Paso, Texas, and she is very excited to share her story with us today. So, Ambrosia, why don't you go ahead and share your journey to a VBAC after two C sections with us?Ambrosia: Cool. I'll start off with my first pregnancy. I got pregnant at about 16. And with that, I just wanted to mention that I wasn't really raised by my mom. I had my grandma in my life most of my life since I was two. So with her, I had a lot of freedom with her, in a sense. I did fall pregnant very, very young. But she did support me in so many ways. She helped me out through all of my pregnancy, but it was more providing shelter and food and stuff like that. When it came down to me knowing what to do, that wasn't really a thing. I found myself watching YouTube a lot and getting my information from the Internet, but still, I was just completely naive to what birth was and all of that. I just went straight off of what my doctor would tell me.Once I did find out that I was pregnant, I chose a doctor and didn't really do any research with that. I just chose a female because that's who I was more comfortable with. But little did I know, the doctor that I did choose, she was, from what I've heard around El Paso from other women and their experiences and doctors too, they were like, "Oh, she's really good at C-sections. She's one of the top ladies that you would want to have to do your C-section because she's really good at it." That was later on that I figured that out. But at the time I was just like, however my baby comes out is how it comes out, but I did want to have like a vaginal birth. I didn't want to do no surgeries or nothing because I've never even broke a bone in my body, so just the thought of surgery kind of scared me. My first visit with her was good, but she automatically told me, "Your pelvis is too narrow. You won't be able to push your baby out. There's a chance that he could get stuck," and this and that. I had my grandma with me, so we just gave each other that look of like, "Oh well, whatever is best." I ended up having a C-section with him, and she schedules the C-section. Then on that day that I got it, after everything was done, she mentioned to me, "You want more kids, right?" I told her, "Of course." She told me, "Well, if you wait a couple years, at least one to two or two-and-a-half years, then you could have a vaginal birth if you would still want that."Julie: That is so funny. Hold on. Can I interrupt for a second?Ambrosia: Yeah, of course.Julie: I'm so sorry. I think it's so funny that she told you that after she told you your pelvis was too small.Ambrosia: Exactly.Julie: Isn't that silly? Anyway, we're gonna talk more about that at the end of the episode, but I just had to call attention to that. Anyway. Sorry. Keep going. Thank you. Ambrosia: You're okay. Yeah. I thought that was weird, too, because knowing what I know now, I know that a lot of doctors get more money, in a sense, out of the C-sections rather than a vaginal birth. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably why. And not necessarily that, but it's more convenient for them. They don't have to really wait around and whatnot. And then with my second pregnancy, my son was already about 5-6 years old. And so I was like, well, of course I can. I was pretty excited. I did want to push for vaginal birth, but I did end up going back to her for that pregnancy. I should have known better. But honestly, I didn't know really how to advocate for myself still because I was 21. I feel like I just wasn't adamant enough. I didn't have that confidence yet be like, no, this is what I want. I don't want another C-section. This is what I want. I would mention it to her that at almost every appointment. With the first initial appointment, I told her, "I do want to try for a VBAC." And she's like, "Well, yeah. We can talk about that in your next appointments." As I kept going back for my appointments, she was just kind of like, "It's just an in-and-out type of thing and transactional experiences trying to see if you're healthy and whatnot." I started noticing at around 20 weeks pregnant that my hands would feel pretty weird. They would feel kind of stiff and a little swollen. I started getting very, very swollen. I worked full-time. I'm a nail technician, and so I work at a spa full time, or I did at that time too. I thought, maybe it's just stress from work or normal pregnancy symptoms. But I started feeling very noticeably swollen. I would see a lot of flashes and little stars just floating and bad headaches. Toward the end of my pregnancy, I would start feeling indigestion depending on what I ate. I thought it just wasn't sitting right in my stomach, and sometimes I would end up vomiting. But at the time I just thought, oh, this is just normal pregnancy symptoms or whatever. But knowing what I know now, I'm like, no, that was definitely signs of preeclampsia. But the thing is at every doctor's appointment that I would go in for, my blood pressure was always normal. So it was pretty weird that I had that. I would tell my doctor, I'd be like, "Hey, girl." I'm pretty swollen, and I don't really feel like myself." Obviously you're not gonna feel like yourself with pregnancy, but I felt not what I felt with my first pregnancy. It didn't feel good at all. So she looks at me, and she goes, "Oh, no. I mean, you're swollen, but you're also very slim," because I am very skinny naturally. But she's like, "Maybe your family isn't used to seeing you pregnant, you know?" So I was like, "I don't think that's what it is, but okay." Again, me being not very adamant about sticking up for myself in a sense like, no, I don't think this is. So I just told her. I was like, "Okay, we'll keep seeing." I kept going for my appointments and at 38 weeks, I had one of my appointments, and then I was feeling super bad. That's when I was just like, "No, I really don't feel good. I'm very swollen." She told me during that appointment, "Yeah, I mean, you look a little more swollen than usual. I'll have you go across to the hospital to get some bloodwork done." So I was like, "Okay." So I went. I remember telling my grandma at the time, "She wants me to go do some blood work." She just gave me that looks like, "I don't know," like she knew something. I was blindsided too. So I was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna go get this bloodwork done real quick." I took my son with me, and then she ended up having to come pick him up again because I had to be admitted. They wanted to monitor me. She came and picked up my son, and then I went and got the bloodwork done. They took a urine sample, and then a couple of hours later, they're like, "Oh, yeah, you have preeclampsia." I was like, "Oh, no." I kind of knew it was that because I did a little bit of research, but at the same time, I didn't want to self-diagnose myself either. I was like, I don't want to say this is what it is when it really isn't, but I did a little bit of research and every symptom was matching up to that. So when they told me that, I was like, hey, I knew it in a sense, but I didn't really advocate for myself. I was just like, no, maybe it's normal. They did find protein in the urine too. So with that, since she found out, she was like, "Oh, no, we have to do the C-section tonight. There's no way." It was around 4:00 or 5:00 when I went in, and then that around 11:00 or 12:00 at night. That's when they started the C-section. But I was like, "Oh my god." When they did the ultrasound, my baby's head was down, so I was like, "Oh, I wanted to go through with a vaginal," and I was already a centimeter dilated too. I should mention that. I did want to do a vaginal, but she just kept saying, "No, since you have preeclampsia, there's no way we can do a natural delivery. You can start having seizures and your body's already under stress. We just need to get your baby out now." So I was like, "Okay." I ended up having to do another repeat C-section, but I felt like she just put the blame on the preeclampsia for the C-section, and then she has the audacity to say, "Oh it's a good thing I caught this right away. It's a good thing I caught this," and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, yes."Julie: You were trying to tell her almost the whole pregnancy, "I don't feel good. This is not really normal." Ambrosia: And then right when I finally told her again, that's when she was like, "Oh, I'm so glad I caught this." I was like, "Girl, no. If I wouldn't have told you, who knows how the rest of the pregnancy would have gone?" But it was wild to me. That really struck me right there. So I was just like, if I ever got pregnant again, I would not go back to her. Thankfully, my son was good. He was born and healthy. He did have to do a little NICU stay for a while just because he was under stress. And once he was born, like they said, he was grunting a little and having trouble breathing. He did go into the NICU for a little bit, like four or five days. But that whole experience was hard. It was really hard to go through with the NICU stay having a C-section, and then walking back and forth to the NICU. It was also my first time breastfeeding because when I was 16, I didn't have any guidance really. My grandma never breastfed. My great-grandma had never breastfed. My mom didn't breastfeed. I was just new to the whole experience. I didn't have a lot of people to help me out with that. My mother-in-law did breastfeed. She tried to help me, but it was new for me, so I was like, I don't even know. I was still shy in a sense. I was like, oh, people seeing every aspect of me was just weird. But I ended up breastfeeding my second for up to three years. That was the one thing that I took from all of that. It was a super nice bonding experience. But at the time, learning how to do it under the stress from having the C-section and all of that was just so much, but I stuck through that. I was really proud of myself at that time because I had really no guidance or anything with my first. I mean, I did want to breastfeed, but I just didn't know. I thought they were born, and they already knew how to latch and all that.Julie: I know. Sometimes it's hard work, for sure.Ambrosia: Yeah. I didn't know it was a learning experience for the baby and mom to breastfeed and stuff. So that, I missed out with on my first and a lot of other things. So it was nice. But that's what happened with my second. From that point on, I was like, no. If I get pregnant again, I'm going to have a vaginal birth. There's no way that my pelvis is too small. I already knew in the back of my mind that all that was just noise to me. It wasn't anything. I already knew that VBACs were possible just because my mom ended up having a C-section with my brother, and then with me and my sister, she had us vaginally. So I knew it was possible and that people can do it, but it's just finding the right provider that actually wants to take that on and support you through every step of the way. It was another thing, especially from where I am from here in El Paso, because most of the hospitals, will push and push. So this time around, when I did get pregnant, I was like, okay. We're not doing that again. I'm not going back to her. I did all my research and even spoke to some of my clients because 2024 was a really weird year where it seemed like everyone was pregnant in a sense. I was like, oh my god. A lot of my friends were pregnant. My clients and celebrities that I would even see, I'm like, okay, yeah. Everyone is pregnant around here. I would even ask some of my clients who their doctor was and what they were doing in a sense as far as birth with a natural birth or a C-section.One of them just like, "Oh, I had all of my babies as C-sections, and that's what I'm gonna keep doing." I guess it was more convenient for her. So I was like, "Oh yeah, that's that's good for you, but that's not what I want." Another one was telling me that she also wanted a VBAC too because she had a C-section with her first, and then for her second, she was going to Texas Tech University. I guess it's a hospital where they also have the students there, too. Texas Tech. So she said she was going there and that they had OB/GYN and midwives there, too. She was like, "One of the midwives who I'm seeing is totally on board with me having a VBAC." And she was like, "You should go to her." I was like, "Okay," but I don't know what happened with the scheduling. I didn't get her midwife. I ended up getting scheduled with OB/GYN. When I went to that first appointment, she did an exam and everything, and she was like, "Oh, no. Your pelvis is too narrow." I was like, oh my god. I wasn't going to find anybody who was VBAC-supportive.Again, I felt a little bit more comfortable just with a female, so I was limiting my search in a sense. I was just looking for female doctors or midwives who would do VBAC. And then I searched around birth centers, but the idea of that did freak me out because I was looking at one of them. They don't necessarily let you get an epidural. It's totally natural. I was like, I don't know if I could do all that. It just kind of freaked me out. So I was like, I don't know if I can do that. What if I'm in so much pain? That was not an option for me at the time. I ended up just Googling "VBAC", and then a doctor in my area did pop up. When I clicked on the website, it was blasted all over his site, like, "VBAC. Vaginal birth after Cesarean is possible." It was just really positive.Yeah. He had a really good success rate of VBACs and even VBACs after two C-sections because after two C-sections, doctors are a little bit more timid, in a sense, if they want to take that on or not. So I found him, but I was also like, oh, but it's a guy. I don't know how this is going to work or anything.But me just being so adamant in wanting the vaginal birth, because I knew in my heart, I can do this. I'm not too narrow or small. I'm a petite woman, but I'm not tiny. I knew I could do it. I ended up just trying him out. I went to my first appointment with him, and then everything was pretty good. He wasn't invasive either. He just looked at me. He was like, "What are you wanting for this birth?" And I told him a VBAC. And he was like, "Okay. And you've had two previous C-sections?" I was like, "Yep, two C-sections." And then he was like, "And the reason for the C-sections?" I was like, "The first one, basically no reason at all. It was just because the doctor thought my pelvis is too narrow. He chuckled. He was like, "Oh, okay. And the second one?" I was like, "She blamed it on preeclampsia, in a sense," which I feel like she really did. But who knows? I mean, maybe. I know it has its risks and all that doing a vaginal with preeclampsia, but she just wasn't willing to take those in a sense. So I told him, and he was like, "Okay." And then he just was like, "Yeah." He measured my stomach and all that. He didn't do those the pap smears or anything. He wasn't invasive. He's like, "There's no need for me to check and see and all that." That's what the doctor over there at Texas Tech did. Right away, she stuck her fingers in me and she's like, "Oh, no. You're too narrow." I'm like, oh my god. He didn't do none of that. He just looked at me. He's like, "Yeah, you're good. I mean, you're not tiny. I think it's possible." He gave me a lot of reassurance in a sense. I just kept going back and back, and every visit was really fast and simple. He didn't really didn't say much. My pregnancy was pretty healthy. No preeclampsia this time which was really good because I was scared that would happen again and that would be another cause for concern and then end in a C-section or something. There were a couple of little scares. Once I saw my baby here, I was like, no, it was literally just a bunch of scares for no reason, but they have to monitor stuff. But one of them was with the ultrasound, they found an EIF in his heart. I didn't know what the heck that was, so that scared me. But his heartbeat was real strong, so they were like, No, that's nothing to be concerned about or anything. Once he's here the pediatricians will check him out and everything, but it's nothing to be concerned about." So that they found that. And then in another ultrasound, they were telling me that the lower extremities weren't matching up with the upper extremities. So that scared the poop out of me. I was like, oh my god. My baby has these two things. So I was real scared that he was going to have something wrong with him. He told me, and I would ask a lot of questions. I'd be like, "Whoa, what are these things that you found? And what could that mean?" He's like, "Honestly, it's really nothing to worry about. We're just going to keep monitoring you." He had sent me to a specialist, so I would go get my ultrasounds with them. And then also they were like, "You're really small. There's not a lot of room in there for him," because they were seeing that his foot was really squished. They were afraid that he was going to be born with a club foot or something. It was just a bunch of little scares where I was like, oh my god. This is crazy. They always reassured me, "Don't worry if anything comes out," not wrong, but if he does come out with that, it could be corrected and always reassuring me as well. So those were just the only little scares that we really had. But overall, my pregnancy was pretty healthy. No high blood pressure, nothing. None of that. And then when it came closer to my due date, which was September 28th, he was asking me again, "Okay, so you still want to go through with the VBAC?" I was like, "Of course I do."And then he's like, "Do you want to wait for your body to kind of go into labor on its own, or do you want me to induce you?" I just wanted to go through all that naturally and let my body do its thing because I know my body can do it. But my son was just comfortable in there, in a sense. I don't know. I know a lot of women go to labor a little bit early, around 38 weeks. So at 38 weeks, I was just like, okay, you can come out now. I was getting really uncomfortable. Everything was aching. So I was just like, I really don't want to be induced though, because I also knew from my research, because I did a lot of research. I listened to this podcast, too, so much. At the time, I felt like if I can go into labor naturally, I'll have better success with having my VBAC. I know I could do it. The induction part scared me because I was like, I don't want anything to counteract with each other, like the Pitocin and then the epidural and all that. I was being not negative in a sense, but weighing the risks out in my own head. I was kind of overthinking it, too, in a sense. But when that time came, he was like, "All right." Toward the end, he would do cervical exams to see if I was dilated or not. At 38 weeks, I was a centimeter dilated. I stayed like that until 39 weeks. I think maybe even at 37 weeks, I was already a centimeter. I was hoping I could dilate even more and by the time my due date comes, which was the 28th of September, maybe I'll be ready to go. But no, like I said, he was just really comfortable in there. So by the 27th, I was the 27th of September. I had my last doctor's appointment, and he was like, "All right, if you want me to induce you, I can induce you." But I forgot what he said. He was like, "If you want to wait for your body to go into labor naturally, I'm going to be out of town." I was so disappointed. Like, what do you mean you're going to be out of town? That type of thing. He was like, "If you do wait for your body to go into labor naturally, then there's a chance. You'll have the doctor here at one of the local hospitals. It's Del Sol. You'll have one of those doctors, but your chances of having a C-section, like go up higher because it's not me." He stated again, "I have a 95% rate of VBAC success." So I was thinking and thinking, but he told me, "Go ahead and think it over. Talk with your family about it and just let me know what you want to do. Give us a call, but I do want you to go and be monitored." He didn't really mention why for me to go to the hospital to be monitored. He wanted me to get a sonogram and then I forgot what else it was, but he wanted me to go into the hospital to get monitored. I was like, "Okay." I think it was for the next day. So I think it was actually the 26th that my appointment was. And then on the 27th, I had to go to the hospital to be monitored either way. They made it a point to me. They were like, "You need to go to the hospital for that sonogram or whatever." And I was like, okay. I thought it was kind of weird, but I was nervous, too. I was like, okay, whatever. I'm going to go. I end up going. I got myself admitted and everything. They hooked me up to the machines. They checked me with a cervical exam. I was still at a centimeter. The baby's heartbeat was doing good. They came in and did the ultrasound, and then they were like, "Oh, you're having contractions. You don't feel them?" I was like, "No, not really." I really didn't feel them because I guess I had been feeling them for weeks on end. My stomach would tighten. Again, I didn't know what they felt like really just because with my past, I had C-sections, so I was like, no, this is all new to me. I don't even know what contractions even feel like. I just thought the tightening of the stomach-- obviously I knew it was something, but I thought it was like, oh, those are Braxton Hicks contractions. They're fine. They're fine. I guess they were coming on pretty strong, but they were just like that for a long time. They didn't hurt or anything. My stomach was super tight. So, with every contraction, they'd be like, "Oh, you didn't feel that? You didn't feel that? Okay." Well, they ended up telling me, "We are going to keep you overnight just because you are contracting a lot. The doctor sent you in because he wanted us to check your amniotic fluid." He didn't have a lot of amniotic fluid in there, so that's why they wanted me to go in. I ended up staying the night. And then the next day, that's when they were like, "Okay, so do you want us to induce you?" Actually, I think it was on the 27th. I did go in because I ended up staying the night. And then the next day, that's when they were asking me. And I mean, I was just like, "Okay." I guess, honestly, a lot of factors played into that. My mom was coming in from out of town, from California over here, my mom and my sister, and I wanted them to be here. If I would have waited, my thing was if I wait to go into labor naturally and my mom and sister come down and nothing happens, they have to go back, and they would miss a whole birth and everything, and they wouldn't be able to see my son. So I was weighing out all the options, and I ended up agreeing to be induced. Around 11:00 on the 28th, that's when they started Pitocin. And then another thing that I thought was he didn't really mention this to me, or I probably should have asked, too, that when he was doing the induction, it's one of his policies that he has that he would prefer to just have the epidural put. Because I had it in my mind that I want to try it without the epidural, but I wanted it to be there too. Like, if I do end up giving in and being like, oh well, this is a little bit too much pain for my comfort, I have that option if I wanted to get it or not. But my doctor had mentioned before, "You can have the epidural put in, but none of the medicine." I was like, okay. So when the time came, they were like, "Oh well, we can't start the Pitocin without the epidural placed in first." I guess it was for that reason just because if anything were to go wrong or anything and I would need an emergency C-section, that was already placed so they wouldn't have to put me out completely, and I would miss the whole birth." So I was like, "Okay, all right, you guys can place it." Once they did, they're like, "No, we're going to have to run at least just a little bit of the epidural." And I was like, "What the heck? I thought no medicine had to go through or anything." And they're like, "Well yeah, we kind of do. Just because if we don't, there's a chance for it to be a clot, and then we would have to place it all over again." And they were like, "I don't necessarily think that's exactly what you want." I'm like, "Honestly, no, but okay." It was just a little shock to me. I was like, oh, okay. That's not what I wanted. I wanted to be able to get up and walk around to push through the labor in that sense and the contractions because I feel like they would have been more tolerable if I was able to move around. But once the Pitocin started kicking in and the contractions came on, at first they were okay. I was laughing with my mom and my sister because they did come in. They had just gotten there. We were just talking, and my husband was there too. We were all just laughing. It was a nice little beginning to the labor and filled with a lot of laughs. But once I wasn't able to laugh through nothing, I just wanted to focus and for everyone to not even talk. I was like, oh, this is intense. I would have preferred to be up and moving around and stuff, but that was not the case, which I kind of expected before I had went in. You can't really plan for things to go your way because there's always going to be something that ends up not going your way. So I was just going with the flow type of thing. Whatever happens, happens. It's for a reason. So the Pitocin was definitely kicking in, and I was contracting, and then I wasn't really dilating, fast. They didn't really want to do cervical checks a lot because of bacteria. My water wasn't broken yet, so I think I was at a 1 still. They checked and they were like, "Oh, you're at 2." And then., "Oh, you're at 2 still." The doctor ended up coming in himself, and then he ended up breaking my water. He didn't really necessarily, ask or anything. It was just the type of, "Okay, I'm gonna check you," and then, "Okay, we're gonna break the water." I was like, "Oh my god. What the heck do you mean? Like, break my water right here, right now?" It was kind of shocking, too, but I was just kind of like, okay, if this is what's needed to progress the labor, then I'll just go with it, in a sense. Nobody even asked me. That was rude and not really, but I was just like, that's so weird that he came in and just broke my water. And then after that, honestly, things started getting more intense. The contractions were very intense, and I wasn't able to get up or anything. I could feel them because I didn't want them to pump any more than three-- I don't know if it's milliliters or whatever of the epidural. I wasn't pressing that button or anything. I just wanted to do it without it as much as possible, but I could really feel everything. So once the water was broke, I was just like, okay, this is really it. There was a peanut ball there. So I was like, "Get the peanut ball. Let's try to put it in between my legs, and let's see if it does anything." We did that, and it really, really made things worse for me just because it was not comfortable at all. The pain was bad, but it ended up dilating me more and pretty fast too. But it was very, very uncomfortable. I would have to switch positions and just kind of lay on one side and then lay on my other side. I felt all the contraction pain just in my back towards my butt, in a sense. It just felt intense. I'm just grateful I was even able to experience that just because I didn't feel anything with my other ones. You feel just cold in comparison to the C-section and tugging and pulling. It was a weird experience with them. They weren't really traumatic or anything for me, thank God, but it just wasn't what I wanted. So to even be feeling all of the labor pains and all that, I was just grateful to even be there and experiencing that as a woman. It was pretty exciting for me. But like I said, things didn't really necessarily play out the way I was envisioning or how I wanted it to a T, but I was able to experience all of the other things. And then they would do cervical exams. Once I was at an 8 or whatever, that's when I was like, okay, I'm getting closer because I was afraid that I wasn't even going to dilate and I would just have to end up getting a C-section. But I was dilating. And then once he came in, because I guess the nurses were like, "No, yeah, baby's talking to me. He's letting us know that he's moving down and he's gonna come out." One of the nurses was like, "He's going be out by the end of my shift. Watch, guys." We were just looking at her like, "Okay, if you say that, let's see." Eventually, I want to say it was around 5:00 or 5:30, that's when I finally reached 10 centimeters. That's when the doctors came in. They started getting everything ready. And then I was like, oh, my god, I think it's time to push. My body felt like I needed to go to the restroom and I needed to poop. So I was like, oh, my god. I feel like that. They told me before, "If you feel like you need to poop, then you need to push. Let us know." And then I was like, "Yeah, I do." My husband calls them and he's like, "Yeah, she said she feels like she needs to poop". And then they're like, "Okay, yeah." That's when he came in and all the nurses too. They started getting everything ready. I want to say I started pushing and he told me he's like, "It's literally going to feel like you have to use the restroom, so don't hold back or anything. Just push." So I was like, okay. I think after four or five times of pushing my son, I could feel him come out. The head first came out and then finally, the rest of the body. I had that huge relief of like, oh my god. I cannot even believe that I just did that. I did it. Even though all these doctors would tell me like, "No, you're too small. There's no way," I actually did it. I didn't even have any lacerations, no nothing. I didn't tear or anything. It was just unbelievable because I had the biggest fear too, that I was going to tear into two holes. There was no way I was going to not tear at all. But I didn't end up tearing or anything which was good because I know that's an additional recovery in a sense. But after a couple of pushes, he was out. I was just so happy. I was crying. My mom was crying because she was in the room with me, and my sister was in the room with me holding one leg. My husband was holding the other one, and there was just tears. Tears everywhere. It was really, really nice to actually experience that for this birth. I feel like a lot of women, too, can relate. Once you finally do that after people saying, "No, you can't," or not even giving you a chance to try, it was very, very rewarding and a completely different experience to a C-section. I'm just very grateful that I found this doctor and that he actually took me on and was like, "Oh yeah, you'll be fine. We'll do this. You can do this." It was really nice. So my son was born. He was only 6 pounds, 8 ounces. And so he wasn't a really big baby either. But still, I was a petite woman myself, so I thought it was gonna be challenging, but it was good. I didn't have any problems. No, nothing. He was born very, very healthy. Even all the nurses, too were really excited. They're like, "Oh my god, she's a VBAC. She actually did it." I kept hearing that over the course of my stay. They were just like, "You did a VBAC. That's so amazing. Congratulations." It was just so nice to hear. And the recovery, oh my god, was so much better than a C-section, just 100 times better because I was able to get up after the epidural had worn off. I was able to get up because after those contractions started getting really intense, I was pressing that button. I was like, you know what? I need more of the epidural. There's no way. Those Pitocin contractions were just more intense than natural contractions and they really were. So I did only bump up myself from three milliliters to six, I think. I didn't really feel so much pain, but I could still feel things. After the epidural wore off, I was able to get up and walk, and it was nice. It was really nice to get up and do things and not have to have that pain of a C-section and leave the hospital after just a day, the very next day. We were able to leave by like 5-6:00. I was able to go home and was just enjoying my baby. That was pretty much it. But I was very grateful for the experience.Julie: I love that story. That's such an incredible and inspiring story. There are so many things that I could talk about, but we're running a little short on time, so I want to talk about two things. The myth of the small pelvis and preeclampsia. First, I know that preeclampsia is really tricky because the induction is necessary. Preeclampsia is one of the things where you need to get the baby out sooner rather than later. It's a medically indicated thing. If you have a doctor telling you that, you don't have to question it or worry about it because it's really important to get that baby here quickly. However, there are instances where an induction may be appropriate compared to just going straight to a C-section. And again, provider preference is going to play a huge deal into that. But also, as long as your blood pressure is holding steady through an induction and you're progressing well and mom and baby are doing fine, then an induction can be a safe option as well for preeclampsia. So the biggest thing they're just going to make sure is the stress of the induction is not too much on your body because sometimes your blood pressure will go up just naturally with labor because it's a lot of work. But as long as you keep an eye on that, I know that it's a reasonable option at times. So don't think that having preeclampsia just means you automatically have to go to a C-section. But again, talk about your options with your provider. If your provider is not telling you something that you feel comfortable with, question it. Seek out another opinion. But definitely trust your intuition and lean into that. I think that if you've been around with us for long enough, you will know how we feel about the idea of somebody's pelvis being too small. Now, I think it's really sad. I think maybe sad's not the right word, but I feel like with teenage pregnancies, these teenagers who arguably need more help than most because teenage pregnancies are oftentimes unplanned and unexpected. They are in a very vulnerable situation. They need more help and more guidance. But I feel like oftentimes a system will take advantage of that vulnerability, maybe probably even unknowingly. But I feel like it's very easy for teenagers in a hospital system to get railroaded more because they haven't gone through a lot of the experiences that we do later on in life and learn how to navigate through trickier situations and stand up for ourselves and advocate. It's harder and more challenging. And so I'm really sorry that happened to and your provider used her vaginal exam to determine your pelvis is too small. Now let me tell you, there's only one way to determine an actual pelvis size and that's with a pelvic telemetry scan. It's kind of like an X-ray. Vaginal exams are not evidence based. And not only that, we know there's so much more that goes into a pelvis being too small because pelvises move and flex as the baby's being born. Our baby's head squeezes and molds in order to fit through the pelvis, so even a pelvis that might be "too small" before pregnancy can change and shift and expand and grow through the pregnancy, but especially as labor happens. So it's very, very rare for a pelvis to be actually too small or deformed, and usually that happens when mother grows up either incredibly malnourished and their bones are not able to grow properly or through a traumatic injury to the pelvic area. Those are usually the biggest or the most likely times where you'll see a pelvis that is truly too small. A lot of times, it's failure to wait. Maybe the body is just not ready for maybe a too-early induction and things like that. So I would encourage you to ask questions, ask questions, and trust your intuition. We do have a blog al' about CPD which is cephalopelvic disproportion that we're going to link into the show notes. And that just basically means it's fancy words saying your pelvis is too small or maybe your baby's too big to fit through the size of your pelvis as it is. But I'm so glad that Ambrosia was able to stand up for herself and find a provider who would support her in getting a VBAC after two C-sections. So I'm very proud of you and thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.Ambrosia: Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

While we can't control many parts of birth, there is so much we CAN do to quite literally change the trajectory of our birth outcome. First: Feel safe with where and with whom you will give birth.Second (but just as important!): Prepare yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. During her first VBAC attempt, Maria hired a midwife. Her second birth had so much more advocacy, progress, and positivity, but there were still missing pieces, new traumas to process, and things she wished had gone differently.You will NOT WANT TO MISS hearing all of the things that changed for Maria from her first two births to her third. The proactive work, the passion, the prep, the healing, the research, the manifesting, the surrendering, the trust, and to top it all off, the beautiful, unmedicated VBA2C outcome. Just like Maria, our greatest hope is for all of you to unlock this birthing power that is already within you, no matter the birth outcome. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello, you guys. It seems like a common theme lately. A lot of people are wanting to submit their VBA2C stories, and I love it. I love it absolutely so much. We know so many of, these listeners in our community are wanting to know, is it possible? Can we VBAC after two Cesareans? I'm sure you've been noticing the theme in January and February, and now here in March, we have another VBAC after two Cesarean stories coming to you today from our friend Maria. Hello, Maria.Maria: Hi.Meagan: Thank you so much for being here and sharing your stories. We were just chatting a little bit before we got started about kind of where her birth took place, and she'll tell you more. But the VBAC was in Texas, right?Maria: It was. Yes, it was in Texas.Meagan: It was in Texas. So Texans. Texans? I don't know. we have Floridians, Utahns. Is it Texans?Maria: Texans. Yeah. Yep. And you know, Texas is a huge state, so this is central Texas in the Austin area. Yeah, because it's such a big state. It is.Meagan: It is very huge. We know people have to sometimes drive really far away to find support. And when it comes to VBAC after multiple Cesareans, we know sometimes that can be really challenging. And when I say sometimes, it's often. It is often challenging to find that support. So I really like to show everybody where you are in a way because we want people who are in Texas or who can get to Texas or who find it manageable, that they know that there is a supportive provider there. We'll learn more about that. But also, just a reminder, guys, if you're looking for a supportive provider, we have a supportive provider list. How many times can I say "supportive provider" in three seconds? A lot, apparently. Go to Instagram and hopefully at this point we'll have it on our website, so check our website too, but we will have that list.If you want to submit your provider, please let us know. Okay. We have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that. This is by Whitney Goats, and the review title is "Amazing" on Apple Podcasts. It says, "I've been wanting to write a review for a while, but wasn't sure what I could say that would explain how much The VBAC Link meant to me. I had an unplanned Cesarean with my first and for the longest time, I felt broken and defeated. When I heard Julie and Meagan share their VBAC stories on the podcast, I cried. It was the first time that I felt understood and like I was not alone. Listening to their podcast has lifted my spirits, healed my emotional scars from the previous birth, and given me the confidence in myself and my body again. "I am now 28 weeks pregnant and preparing for my VBAC. Instead of being scared for this upcoming birth, I feel excited sometimes. I never thought it would happen. Thank you, Julie and Meagan, for the work that you have done connecting and educating all these amazing moms, and thank you for reminding me that I am a Woman of Strength even when I doubted it myself." Oh, that gave me chills. That gave me chills reading that. Oh my gosh. We love your reviews. That is amazing. And girl, Whitney Goats, I hope that you had the most amazing birth ever, and thank you for being here. Just like Maria and all the storytellers that have become before her, you guys, they're amazing and so are you. These storytellers are here to do that- uplift you, motivate you, educate you, and find the healing within yourself because it can happen, right Maria?Maria: Absolutely. 100%.Meagan: It absolutely can happen. Okay, you guys, as always, if you do not mind and if you are enjoying the podcast, will you leave us a review? You can go to Apple Podcasts. You can go to Google even and leave us a review there. You can go on Spotify or really wherever you listen to your podcasts, leave us a review. If you feel extra special and the platform that you're listening on can leave a comment, leave us a comment. You never know, it may be read on the next podcast. Okay, Maria, I want to turn the time over to you to share these stories.Maria: Thank you so much, Meagan, and I just want to say again how excited I am to be here. I agree 100% with that reviewer. This podcast was so impactful for me, and I hope that it can continue to be that for other women. I was also so excited that you're getting so many VBAC after two stories because I hope that that will continue to normalize that instead of it being this crazy thing that we're doing. Meagan: Yes.Maria: That's so exciting that it's becoming more common.Meagan: I know. It's actually making me smile so big because in the beginning, back in 2018, we had to search, and I mean search. We had to go on forums and type in "VBA2C" and really look for stories and almost had to seek them out. We had to go and ask, "Hey, would you be willing to share your story on the podcast?" And now we're just getting a flood of submissions which is so awesome. I love seeing it, and I would love to hear even more VBAC after three or four or five Cesareans because it is possible. It's not as easy to navigate through, but it is possible. And yes, there are risks. There are risks with anything that we do including a repeat Cesarean, but I want to help normalize this because, I mean, there are so many women just like Maria and myself who have gone on, done the work, got the education, and been able to have a vaginal birth. So. All right, well, we know with every VBAC or VBAC after two Cesareans, there's at least one Cesarean involved, so let's start with that story.Maria: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So when I got pregnant with my first baby, this was in 2018, it didn't take me very long to find my way to the natural birth world. I watched The Business of Being Born like a lot of women, and I was fully convinced that I wanted to birth vaginally and naturally if possible. So, when my husband and I decided to move to Costa Rica halfway through my pregnancy, the very first thing I did was research the C-section rate versus natural birth rates in the country. I was pretty disappointed, although I wasn't surprised, to find that the rates there are pretty high. I mean, they're about the same as the US but a bit higher in the private hospital setting which is where I was going to give birth.I didn't want to let that deter me, and I was determined to build my team. From when I was still here in the States, I started researching the best OBs and doctors in the area and hospitals. I found two in the city of San Jose which is where we were living, the two most quote unquote natural OBs.Another interesting thing I found out was that midwives are actually not legally permitted to work in Costa Rica independently.Meagan: Really?Maria: Yeah, at least back in 2018. I don't know if things have changed since then, but they are not allowed to work independently. They are allowed to work alongside an OB. So I was like, okay. I went with one of these OBs, and there was one midwife who practiced in the city of San Jose, and they worked together as a team. And so I was like, okay, all right, well, I guess this is it. I have my team, and I thought I was done. I don't think that I fully understood the intensity of birth or the mental and physical stamina that would be required of me because it was my first baby.Meagan: You don't know what you don't know.Maria: You don't know. Exactly. I took a Bradley birth course with my husband, and I just assumed that everything would be fine as long as I had a good team, and I'd be able to escape the dreaded cascade of interventions that I'd heard so much about. I wasn't informed, but I don't know. I was very intellectually informed, but I didn't really know how intense labor is. So intellectually, I knew what I had to do. But anyway, we were living abroad. I went into labor naturally at 40 weeks, and I had a very long labor which began in the middle of the night which was a common theme in all my birth. They always started in the middle of the night which I think is pretty common. And because it was my first baby and I was so excited, I was unable to really stay calm and rest.I got very ramped up way too soon.I burned through a lot of my energy in the first 24 hours of what I now know was very early labor. So by the time it was actually more intense and I made it to the hospital, I was exhausted because I slept so little. We get to the hospital and my labor slowed down, which again, I know is not uncommon, but I think I was also just not feeling very relaxed. I started actually feeling uncomfortable with this midwife /doula as she told me she was. She said, "I'm a midwife/doula." I later learned that is not a thing. It's like, either you're one or the other. I just didn't feel like she was really supporting me as I expected she would. It seemed to me like she wasn't really a doula. I started realizing, okay, this is not what I was expecting. She was more of a quasi-nurse, really, for the OB and just assisting him. She was like his private nurse, basically. She was sitting there in the room either watching me. She'd come in and give me a position, but then just sit back and she was on her phone. At least that's how I was perceiving it. I just started kind of not feeling very safe with her, and I just shut her out. In hindsight, I think I should have asked her to leave. But at the time, I didn't really know that I could do that, and that I could really advocate for myself in that way, so I just kind of shut her out. She probably felt that it just wasn't a good click. So then I began to feel pressure by the team because I'd been there for probably, what is it, maybe 8 hours or so? They started pressuring me to get things going. And so the OB approached me about using what they call natural oxytocin which is what they call Pitocin.Meagan: Pitocin, yeah.Maria: Yeah. But they're like, "No, no, it's natural oxytocin." And I was like, "Okay, I know what that is." I could already see that I was being slowly kind of backed into this corner. I refused it several times, but I finally agreed to it. Of course, my contractions became excruciating, but I just was just determined to not have the epidural so that I could walk, even though I was already plugged into the IV and really not walking as free as I wanted. Eventually, one of the nurses, after a while, came in and she asked me when the last time I peed was. I couldn't remember. That's when I was like, "Oh yeah, it's been a long time." Nobody reminded me. I just didn't think about it. I had been drinking water, so they had me try, and I just couldn't pee. It's like my body just kind of shut down. So they decided to try and insert a catheter to see if it would empty my bladder and help baby descend. So I was laying on the bed. I had five people around me trying to place this catheter in me. I was on Pitocin, so I was having these intense contractions, and they weren't able to insert it. They said it was because of the way my body was. I guess my urethra was towards the back or something, and they just weren't able to do it. That was really disappointing because I was really hoping that that would be the magic thing that would help baby descend. Finally, the OB came in and was like, "Listen, if you want to avoid a C-section, you should just do an epidural so that your body can relax, and maybe that could help us place up the catheter and then, baby will descend." I was like, "Okay, all right. Let's do it." They did it. It felt amazing for a couple of minutes, and then immediately, my baby's heart rate dropped. The OB basically just called in an emergency, and I was whisked off to the operating room for an emergency C-section. I was traumatized because I legitimately thought I was dying. I thought it was a true emergency. I was like, oh my gosh. I can't believe it. I'm gonna die. Of course, I've learned since then that a baby's heart dropping after an epidural is pretty common.Meagan: Pretty common, yeah.Maria: And that it wasn't really a true emergency that merited a C-section right then and there. That's been a really hard thing to process.Meagan: And frustrating, too, because he was like, "If you want to avoid a Cesarean, this is what you have to do," and then you did that, and then it immediately went that way.Maria: Yeah. I honestly thought he was. I think he was probably just prepping me in advance to just have the epidural so we could just go there.Meagan: Yeah, that's hard.Maria: Yeah. After baby was born, the hospital policy required me to go into the post-op room for 30 minutes to recover, and I would then be rejoined with my baby.Meagan: Oh, so your baby wasn't allowed to be with you?Maria: No. Meagan: What?Maria: Yeah. So my first 30 minutes as a mom, I was separated from my baby. He was with my husband. I was taken to this room where I was recovering alongside other people that I didn't know who were also recovering from other types of surgeries.Meagan: Whoa.Maria: Yeah, so I was like on this bed paralyzed still because of the epidural and shivering. It was a really surreal moment because I felt like, oh my gosh. I just had a baby. Wait, why am I here? What is happening? It was really, really traumatizing, and that was just their policy at that hospital. So it was really traumatizing for me. I was eventually joined back with my husband and baby, but needless to say, it really affected me.I did struggle with postpartum depression and anxiety for a long time. I had a very hard time bonding with my baby for that first year. I felt really robbed of that dream birth I had envisioned, and I felt robbed about the golden hour right after when you get to enjoy your baby and celebrate the fact you just had a baby. I felt like I never got that.Meagan: That would be very difficult. There are a lot of people who get their babies taken away, and it is so frustrating. I just wanted to give a little reminder that if you don't have your baby and you want your baby, it's okay to demand your baby and find someone who will do anything in their power to get that baby back to you.Maria: Yeah, so that was my first birth. So the second birth took place about two years later, and we were back in the US due to the pandemic. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, I was actually in Costa Rica when I found out I was pregnant, and then we moved back to the US halfway through my pregnancy. I just knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was going to try for VBAC. I was extremely confident that I could do it because I felt that if I found a truly supportive provider, there just was no reason why it wouldn't go smoothly. I had a lot of unprocessed anger and trauma that I hadn't fully worked through. I was still very angry at my OB, at the midwife, at the hospital, even though I did do therapy actually in Costa Rica, but I don't think I fully worked through this part. Even though none of it was truly 100% their fault, I still felt really let down, and of course, I felt anger at myself even for my perceived failure of my body to birth my baby. My way, at the time, of avoiding a repeat of this was to just completely avoid the hospital setting and go the complete opposite direction. So I opted for full midwifery care and home birth. I just didn't want anything to do with the hospital. It was traumatic. I was like, no hospital. At the time, we were living at my parents' home in their hometown. I basically hired the only midwife that I knew in town. I didn't really interview anyone else. I just went with her. I think in my mind at the time, as long as you were a midwife, she would be 100% better than an OB. Again, I was very angry at OB at the time. But also, I did meet the midwifery team and they seemed experienced and I liked them, so I felt really confident that everything would work out like it was going to work out. There was no plan B. Meagan: Yeah. Maria: In terms of preparing for my birth, I didn't really do much outside of remaining active. I did prenatal workouts. I walked. I was healthy. I thought that was pretty much what you had to do. I just thought again that not being in a hospital would solve all my problems, and that was the only ingredient I was missing for my dream birth, which, of course, I later learned was just part of the equation.So this time, my labor started actually pretty slowly. I had a premature rupture of membranes. It was a very slow trickle. It took over 24 hours of that for my labor to actually start. That was even after some homeopathic pellets. I don't really know what it was, but my midwife gave it to me and some castor oil that I took. I'm a pretty anxious person, so I was getting very anxious about my labor not starting because I had it in my head that I couldn't go too long without my water breaking. In my mind, I was on this timeline. I don't do well under pressure, so right off the bat, I was already in my head about it.Meagan: Yeah.Maria: I was so antsy to get labor going that I just wouldn't let myself rest. I actually went walking in the middle of the night with my husband instead of trying to rest. I was like, I will get this labor to start. I was just not really saving my energy. I was getting revved up again too soon. So again, once labor got going, I was exhausted.This time, I'd opted to give birth at my parents' home which in hindsight was probably not the best idea because I felt their presence in the home. I'd sense their worry and their concern over me, at least in my head. I was mostly in their bedroom, so I started getting claustrophobic in there. I felt like a caged lion at one point. I was like, ah. Now nobody was actually pressuring me, but I felt it. I just felt like my whole family knew I was in labor. Everyone was waiting for me. Again, hindsight is 20-20, right? I was like, man, I could have asked them to just leave for a while, but I just didn't feel like I could.Meagan: Yeah, it's their house. It's their house. It's their space. Yeah, it's weird. But I will just point out that who you have in your space and where you labor can impact your labor for sure because you're in your head.Maria: Yes, 100%. It took me two labors to learn that. Especially if you're a sensitive person and feel energy and if you're anxious, you have to be really aware of is somebody helping you or not? And if they are re not, then you can say you can ask them to leave. I just didn't know that I could do that.Anyway, I powered through it. Even despite that, I think labor was better in my home than it was at the hospital. I definitely felt more comfortable. I was more free. I was trying all these different positions and shower, bathtub, you know, everything. I felt really powerful. It was really positive at first. It was, despite the fact that I was really tired too. But it was a very long labor. Once again, my body shut down and I could not pee even though everybody was trying to remind me to go. I was trying to go, and there just came a point when my body just stopped wanting to go. We got to that point where they were like, "Okay, well let's try and place a catheter." They were not able to do it. I guess I have a very small urethra or something. Something happens in my body during labor. It's hard to get to it. This was a home birth, so they had their equipment on hand. They didn't have all the options that maybe they would have in a hospital of different sizes or something, so they just weren't able to place it. It was very, very disappointing. They also felt that I was getting weak, and I didn't want to eat anymore. They hooked me up to an IV. They gave me oxygen. This started triggering this fear in me that this was heading in a direction that I didn't like. It wasn't feeling like the peaceful home birth I had envisioned. I eventually got to 10 centimeters, and they said I could start pushing even though I didn't really feel much of an urge to push but I was like, okay, I'm 10 centimeters. I guess I'll try pushing. I started pushing for multiple hours, but the baby just wasn't descending. And at one point, the midwife could see the baby's head higher up, and she actually attempted to pull the baby out with her hands.Meagan: Kind of went in like a soft forceps.Maria: Yeah, exactly. It was very painful. Super traumatic. I was like, oh, my gosh. This is not what I envisioned. But she wasn't able to do it. He was just too high up. After that, I just remember seeing her throw up her hands and with her body just kind of say, I give up. There was nothing more that she could do for me. At that moment, with a surprising amount of clarity and conviction, I decided to call it and request to be transferred to the only hospital in my town that accepted VBAC, any other hospital would have had me go straight for a C-section. So this was my last chance because I wasn't done trying to VBAC. I was like, okay, home birth isn't gonna happen, but maybe VBAC will at a hospital. And so, we got to the hospital. When I got to triage, they checked me, and they actually said I was nowhere near complete and that I was 8 centimeters dilated, and that I was very swollen.Meagan: That's what I was gonna just ask. I'm wondering if you got swollen.Maria: I was definitely very swollen, but they also said I wasn't 10 centimeters. I was like, "What? What do you mean?" Because in my mind, I was like, I'm almost there. I'm 10 centimeters. Maybe all I need is an epidural maybe. Maybe I just need that final little push. At that point, I was okay with drugs. I was like, "Give me whatever." I'm so close, right?Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Maria: But no, they were like, "No, you're 8 centimeters." And also, my contractions had really spaced out, so they gave me an epidural. They gave me Pitocin, and they let me rest.Meagan: Did they give you a catheter and empty your bladder?Maria: Yes, they gave me a catheter to empty my bladder, but baby was just not coming down. And also, the epidural did not sit well with my baby again. They didn't whisk me away to a C-section this time, but they were starting to bring up, "Okay, it's been a long time." They also were pretty concerned that my water had broken two days before, and that was a big red flag for them. They started mentioning C-section as the safest route for me. After, I don't know, probably 8 hours there, I just kind of said, "Okay, let's just do a C-section, and we just went with it." This time was less traumatic because it wasn't an emergency. I chose it. I was also never separated from my baby, and that was very huge.Meagan: Yes.Maria: That was huge. Yeah, 100%. Like, I got to carry him immediately after birth. I was able to breastfeed him. I was like, nobody is separating me from this baby right now, and they didn't. So that was very healing, and I was very grateful for that. That was that birth. After the birth, the midwives did come to see me at my house, and when I asked them what happened, they weren't really able to give me an answer. The final consensus was that my hips were likely too narrow. At the time, this diagnosis actually gave me comfort because at that point--Meagan: It validated you.Maria: Yeah, it validated me. I felt like, okay, I tried everything. It felt like an answer. It was a neat and clean end to this journey. There was a lot of mourning still. It was a heavy weight on me, this disappointment of a failed VBAC and something that I would need to process for a long time because I felt really cheated. I really felt like I'd run an entire marathon, and that I could see the finish line only to find myself pulled back to the starting line again and have to run another marathon.I felt like I had gone through two whole births, the super intense home birth and then C-section. So I felt like, oh my gosh. I was wiped out. So, yeah. Those are my two C-sections.Meagan: Yeah. I mean, lots of really forward-moving progress with the second for sure and still work to be done. But also, you had some validation for you at the time. It felt better. Overall, it went better.Maria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely was better. It was better, but it was, in a way, almost more frustrating though because I got so close. I was like, I'm so close and yet I was pulled back to the exact opposite birth.Meagan: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about swelling because swelling can happen. You can be 10 centimeters. Swelling can happen. It causes puffiness and causes our cervix to swell which then presents as not 10 centimeters. There are a lot of different factors like a baby that is maybe not putting equal pressure on the cervix during pushing or pushing before our body is really ready for us or going in there and doing that, I call it, soft forceps. This is just me making this up, but my fingers are a lot softer than forceps. So her doing some soft forceps was in effort to help baby come down and move but could have disturbed the cervix a little bit and then sitting in on the way. So I just wanted to point out that is it possible that you could have been 10 centimeters? Yes. Is it possible that swelling could have caused the regression? Yes, there are some hem-- oh my gosh. How do you say it? Hemopathic. Is that how you say it? Hemopathic. They're little tablets.Maria: Homeopathic.Meagan: Homeopathic. Why do I say hemeo all the time? Homeopathics. Just like they had given you those little tablets that can actually help with swelling of the cervix. So if you have a midwife or you want to look into that and have that in your bag at the hospital, if that happens, you might want to check that out. While you're telling your third story, I will see if I can find the exact name because I cannot place it in my mind right now, but I've seen midwives use it, so that's another thing. And then sometimes Benadryl. A lot of the time, I'll see moms be given Benadryl for swelling.Maria: Yeah, I don't think they gave me any of that. I think at the hospital they were just kind of like, "Oh, 48 hours. Okay, let's--".Meagan: Yeah, the typical.Maria: And yeah. I think they knew from the beginning probably that I'd end up in a C-section. I don't know.Meagan: Might have. Yeah. So baby one, baby two. How did things change with baby number three?Maria: Everything changed. So when I found out I was pregnant for the third time, I, was very surprised and excited. But as soon as I actually thought about the birth you, I felt dread. I knew I was out of options mostly because my fate had been sort of sealed with this diagnosis of narrow hips. I was pretty much certain that my only choice was a third C-section. That really filled me with dread because I had a really rough recovery with my second C-section. I was really unhappy with my scar. I just felt really not looking forward to a third C-section. So I was like, okay. It felt very scary. I decided to approach my husband about trying for a VBAC again. I was sort of certain he would be nervous about supporting me about that. I felt like it was gonna be like, "Maria, you've tried twice. Let's just accept it. Let's move on." But surprisingly, he was actually supportive and he told me to just start with doing some research about VBACs after two and to get some opinions. So I did. The first thing I actually did though was I looked into gentle C-sections because I was like, "Okay, I'm going to get my kind of worst-case scenarios out of the way just in case. If I'm going to have a C-section, I want it on my terms." I looked up the best gentle C-section OB in the area. I was like, "Okay, I've got something there." Then I reached out to my midwife for my second birth and asked for her opinion about going for a VBAC again. I reached out to a few birth centers in the area, and my midwife pretty much told me that she did not think I was a good candidate for VBAC again and that I would end up likely in a C-section. Again, because she was like, "You did everything you could. It just didn't work. I just don't think you're a good candidate." And then most of the birth centers in the area declined me because they only did the VBACs after one.Meagan: After one. Yeah.Maria: Only two birth centers in the area accepted VBAC after two. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go see one of them and just get a second midwife opinion."Meagan: Yeah.Maria: When I got there, this place inspired a lot of peace and comfort. It was this really cozy little space. It was a little cottage near hospital. The midwife I met with, her name is Galyn. Can we give you the name?Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.Maria: Yeah. So this is called The Family Birth Center. It's just amazing and Galyn is amazing. So she just was very confident. I told her my entire birth story. I was sure to add every single complication and also tell her what my previous midwife had said. I honestly painted a really dire picture for her. I was like, "I have really long labors. I can't pee." You know, blah, blah, blah. I was prepared for her to tell me that I was not a big candidate. Honestly, I almost wanted her to say that so that I could just close that chapter and go get my scheduled gentle C-section and move on because that felt easier and safer. Yet her response was not a no. It was actually a non-hesitant, "Absolutely, you can do this." I was shocked. I mean, she obviously asked for my op-reports and everything, but she said that she didn't see why I wouldn't be able to. She had a ton of experience with VBAC after multiple C-sections. She even said that she had a very special place in her heart for these mamas because, as she called us warrior mamas, who really, really wanted it. She did not believe that I was too narrow because that's actually quite rare. She thought it was likely that the baby was simply badly positioned. So right off the bat, she was like, "Okay, I would start you on some Vitamin C to strengthen your bag," which I didn't even know a thing. She was like, "Pelvic floor therapy right off the bat, and you need a proper doula." I was like, "Yes, yes, yes." I'll do all those things because I realized I had not really had a proper doula in my previous birth. And honestly, every concern or worry that I brought up, she was able to talk through it with me, provide a solution or just remind me that no birth is the same. She couldn't really control or predict the outcome of the birth but there were lots of things that we did have control over.One of the things that I was really worried about was my inability to pee during labor. She was like, "Okay well, we'll place a catheter." I was like, "Yeah, but they tried both times and it didn't happen." And she was like, "Well, I'll get you a really tiny one." I was like, "Okay." So she didn't seem worried about that. I just went with it and went with her confidence. I think I decided then and there that I wanted her because I just felt really heard and I don't know. She provided lots of practical and realistic solutions that we could control. Anyway, this time around, I hired a doula. Shout out to Jenna, my doula. Also an amazing, amazing woman. I went to pelvic floor therapy. I also did therapy again to process my past births. I worked really, really hard on radically accepting whatever this birth came to be. So unlike my first two births where I had a really rigid idea of what it would be, this time I worked really hard to just sort of surrender to whatever it ended up being. I also read several books, including how to Heal From a Bad Birth.Meagan: Yes.Maria: A really good book, and Birthing From Within which I also loved. It was a really impactful book, actually. I started doing some art therapy just to process some of my feelings and just about this pregnancy and birth. I listened to every single episode you guys had on VBAC after two. I took The VBAC Link course. Honestly, I hardly worked out mostly because I had two little boys under four, and I just did not have it in me. But I was still very active with just normal life and taking care of two little kids. I did walk a bunch and did some gentle, prenatal yoga. I also did some exercises recommended by my doula from Spinning Babies. The other thing which was different was that I was really mindful of my body positioning throughout my pregnancy. I was always trying to listen to my body and be mindful of my alignment. When I was watching TV or sitting at my desk, I'd sit on a ball. I'd sit on the floor. I love to go on my hands and knees. That felt really good on my back. So just kind of listening to what my body was asking me to do and just being more aware of my body. My whole motto was, throughout the whole time was, "Get out of my head into my body." Preparation felt really different for me this time. I felt like I was preparing my body from the inside out physically speaking. Like I said, I was going to pelvic floor therapy. I was also making room in my uterus for my baby with these exercises to be in the best position possible but I was also really focused on my mind, my spirit, processing all my fears, my traumas. It felt just so much more holistic. I did HypnoBirthing with an app. I wrote down my own prayer affirmations which actually became a really central anchor during my labor. I felt just really ready this time in a new way. And not just because of my dream team but because I was really just ready to surrender to whatever was to come. And also, what was driving me was this new goal which was this idea of just giving my body a chance to labor was the best thing both for me and my baby regardless of the outcome of the birth. Even if it ended up in a C-section, I was still doing what was best for my body and my baby. That's what I kept repeating to myself. It just gave me a lot of peace because the success of this birth was not tied to what kind of birth it was. You know what I mean?Meagan: Yes, yes.Maria: It removed a lot of that pressure, a lot of that fear, and that was just such a game changer for me. Yeah, that was the preparation. A few weeks before the birth, I'd been starting to get more intense Braxton Hicks, but nothing really consistent. I was really just trying to practice the art of basically ignoring them because my goal for my early labor was to just pretend like they weren't happening. I didn't want to get too excited too fast. I wanted to ignore them for as long as possible especially if they started in the middle of the night which is kind of a theme for me. It ended up being really great practice to do that because on Labor Day, of course, I started getting my first contraction at 2:00AM and I just denied it. I was like, nope, they're Braxton Hicks. I just wasn't allowing myself to get riled up. I managed miraculously to doze off for 20 minutes at a time until they started coming on stronger. Once I realized that this was early labor, I had decided before that I wanted to labor alone for a while. This was actually something that I'd been wanting to do just to have this early early labor be a sacred moment for me and my baby. I wanted to be able to pray, to talk to my baby and to prepare together for the work which we would be doing together, both of us. I went into the living room. I let my husband sleep a bit longer, and it was a really special time for me. I'm so happy that I did that.Meagan: Yeah, I was just going to say that is a very powerful moment. Our babies are so connected and if you can have any time, even if it's just like 20 minutes. "Hey, I'm going to the bathroom." Take 20 minutes in the bathroom and connect with your baby. I just think it's so powerful.Maria: Yeah. Yes. It was amazing because I did feel connected the whole labor in a way that I did not in my previous ones where I was very disconnected to what was happening in my body. I was in my head a lot. So at about 6:00am, my contractions were getting stronger and I was like, okay, it's a reasonable time. I'm going to go ahead and wake my husband up. I also knew that my boys would be waking up soon, so I wanted my husband to focus on them and get them breakfast. And then I explained to my boys that baby was coming soon, that they were going to go stay with their cousins for a night or two. I knew that I wasn't going to be able to fully relax if they were still in the house. It felt really important for me to say goodbye and to make sure that they were going to be happy and in a safe place. As soon as my brother-in-law picked them up, I just really felt my body, okay, let go and things just started picking up. I took a shower. I had breakfast. I knew it would probably be a very long labor, so I wanted to eat. I called my doula. She came over and her presence was just such a game changer because she was just this calm, comforting presence. Not to say my husband was not, but she's just more-- this is her job. She's more objective. She was able to suggest different positions. She knew when to let me be. She pushed me when I had to be pushed and let me be when I had to be left alone. But the best thing she did was she did not let me head to the birth center too soon. I wanted to go and she'd be like, "Okay, let's just wait for 30 more minutes. Can you do 30 more minutes? Yeah, let's try this position. Let's walk a little bit. Let's do this and that." That was so important because I would have gotten there way too soon. She and my husband were in touch with Galyn, the midwife. Everyone was just super chill and relaxed. Everyone ate lunch. I don't think I did, but everyone else did. It was just a nice day. It was a cool rainy day. And then at about 2:00 PM my contractions were about 2-3 minutes apart. They were lasting about a minute, and they were getting intense. I was like, "Okay, I need to go." They were like, "Okay, yeah, let's go." We got to the birth center. I was just wrapped in this fluffy blanket. I just picked it up like I was in this daze. I was listening to my HypnoBirthing app. And Galyn, she was so relaxed about everything. Everyone was just very relaxed. It was during the daytime. She'd come in. She'd leave. I got in the bathtub at point. At one point, she checked my dilation and asked me if I wanted to know. And I said, "Nope, I don't want to know because I don't want to get in my head." She was like, "Even if you're 9 centimeters?" And I was like, "No." Okay. That was so amazing. That was such a push of encouragement. And so that was very helpful. Once again, I ran into the issue of being unable to pee. Of course, not surprisingly. So Galyn asked me want if I wanted a catheter. I said, "Okay, let's try it," but I was super nervous about it.Meagan: Yeah.Maria: But this time it was super easy. It was amazing. It went in right away. She had the right size. I don't know what it was, but--Meagan: Right size, pelvic PT.Maria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was easy. I had a ton of pee. After that I was like, oh, my gosh. I surpassed these two huge obstacles of being really well-dilated and also, an empty bladder. Like, I got this. It's amazing. I felt this new surge of energy. After that, I just focused on one contraction at a time. Each one lasted four breaths for me. Each breath coincided with a short prayer that I would say to myself. The hardest breaths were always breath two and three because it was the peak of the contraction. But I knew the pattern in it, and so I knew what to expect. I just remember opening my hands every time and surrendering and just trying to just relax my body and just accept it, and let it wash over me. I was doing a lot of visualization of my body, my pelvis opening, my baby coming down. I was so connected to my body and my baby. I just remember communicating with her and visualizing her coming closer to me. And this, like I said, was something so new for me, this connection. After about two hours of labor, there I was fully dilated. They had me do some focused pushing. Unfortunately, I never really felt that overwhelming urge to push that I'd read so much about and that I had wanted to feel. My pushing was more directed, but it felt a lot less forced than with my second birth. I decided to push on the bed on my hands and knees. My husband and doula were each holding a hand. Galyn was encouraging me. Every time I pushed and she would feel the baby come down, she'd let me know. That was really encouraging to know that it was productive pushing. I was just so focused. After about 40 minutes of pushing, she told me, "Okay, the next push, you're going to feel a burn." Before I knew it, it was the ring of fire I'd heard so much about. Although it was painful, I was just in awe that I was feeling it. I was like, oh my gosh, this means something. I'm so close. It was surreal. I was experiencing it in this weird, out-of-body way. And then the next push, baby was born. I was just in shock. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't fully believe that I did it. They passed her to me immediately. I was still on my hands and knees. I will just never, ever forget the feel of her body and her skin when I held her for the first time. It was the birth of my dreams. I think one of the other things I just loved was just that time afterwards that I never got to experience and that moment of coziness where we were just laying in this queen bed, my husband and I and my baby, and just eating together, holding her immediately, breastfeeding her like it was just a dream. I got to take a bath with some healing herbs. It was amazing. And then, after several hours, we just drove home with our baby.Meagan: Just amazing. That is what birth is about right there. All of those feelings, all of those smells and experiences and bonding moments. I am so happy for you. Let's just say you debunked the myth. Your pelvis was great. Your pelvis and your hips were just fine. It really just took someone educated to know that your baby was in a poor position and that okay, instead of doing this size catheter, let's do a smaller catheter. It's just these little things that made such a big difference. I think it's really important to vet our providers when we are interviewing them. I love that you were like, I gave her all the bad. Like, all of it. I just laid it on her. I wanted her to know everything that I was being told or that was said or that had been done. And then for her to be like, "Okay yeah, I hear those. I see these op-reports, but still don't believe there's anything that makes you not be able to," is just so powerful. So those are the types of providers, and if there really, really, really is a medical reason, they can back it up. "Okay, let's consider something." But I do love that you just came in with all of it, just all of it, and expecting her to be like, "No." And then when she said yes, you're like, "Wait, what?"Maria: What?Meagan: "Wait, what? Can you repeat that?" We really are getting more of that flack and doubt, so it's so great to hear that there's such a supportive provider out there in your area because every area needs it. I would love to see more support coming in because the fact of the matter is, it can happen. It can happen. It is possible, and really, the risk is relatively low, right? It's low, and it's something. And then we do know that to some people, it's not acceptable, and that's okay. But know that the risk is relatively low and that the world paints it to be so much bigger than it is.Maria: Right. Well and also, nobody talks about the risks of repeat sections. Right? Nobody mentions it. I'm like, why is this not being even mentioned at all?Meagan: We talk about it here because it isn't talked about. We have providers say, "Oh, uterine rupture, uterine rupture this and that," but they're not like, "Hey, dense adhesions connecting to your bladder for life, scar tissue gaining for life, back pain that you may discover in your 50s that is related to your Cesarean adhesions and pain." And then, not to mention there are a lot of things like hysterectomy, increased blood loss. You guys, there are things to talk about and complications that can come forth in the future pregnancies as well. We don't talk about those to scare you. We don't talk about uterine rupture here to scare you. We don't talk about uterine rupture or share uterine rupture stories to scare you. We are here to educate you. We want you to know there are pros and cons on both sides. If you find a provider who is all about sharing the risk about VBAC instead of repeat Cesarean, you might not want to be with that provider because there are risks for both sides so if you're getting a one-sided risk, there are some concerns there.Maria: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.Meagan: Well, thank you again so much for sharing your stories. Congratulations. I'm so happy that you found the right provider. You found the dream team. Everyone was on your side and supporting you along the way.Maria: Thank you, Meagan. Again, I think that's only one part of the equation. We as the moms have that other responsibility of really healing ourselves and our past traumas and doing more than just, I guess, working out. A lot of people don't think about the inner work that we have to make for our pelvic floor and even the uterus with making space for your baby in there for optimal positioning. I never heard of these things before you. All of that knowledge was very helpful.Meagan: Yeah, there's a lot of work. Before we started recording you were like, "With my second birth, I just hired a midwife and put it in her hands and was like, hey, I did the work. I hired a midwife," but there's so much more than that. And yeah, finding a supportive provider, getting the education, but there's so much work. We talk about this in our VBAC course-- mental and physical prep. We talk about it early on in the book because it is such a big part of how things can go and if we don't do those things, it can impact us. That doesn't mean you can't get through it and have a VBAC. I don't want to say if you don't go to therapy, you won't get a VBAC or if you don't do these things, but these things will impact you in a positive way more than a negative. I also want to talk about trauma and birth and going through and working through it from the inside out. It's not even birth. It's life. It's affecting us for life. We hold trauma in our body. We hold emotions. We pent them up and yeah, it's just you. We gotta work through them. We can't just shove them in and be like, "Well, that was that. I'll let it go," because it's not going to be let go. It's inside of us.Maria: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. It'll show up. It will show up. It might be years. It might be months, you never know, but it's important to work through it. Okay, well I will not take any more of your time because I know you've already been with me for a bit, and I just wanna thank you again.Maria: Thank you so much, Meagan. It's been such an honor.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today, we're diving into the topic of VBACs—Vaginal Birth After Cesareans. We'll explore the most common reasons for cesarean births, as well as the risks and benefits of choosing a VBAC. Additionally, we'll discuss factors that might make someone risk out of a VBAC, and compare those risks to those of a repeat cesarean. To have this conversation today on Yoga|Birth|Babies I have Meagan Heaton. Meagan co-founded the VBAC Link in 2018. Although she always felt called to the baby world, she really found her love for birth in 2014 after her second C-Section. Through these two birth experiences, her love and passion grew around VBAC. She wanted to help people feel supported and loved. She had two C-sections and then went on to have a VBA2C, and has now supported over 350 families through their birthing journeys as a birth doula. In addition to sharing her personal VBAC experiences, Meagan and I discuss key questions to ask a care provider to determine if they are truly VBAC-supportive. This is such an important topic, and I can't wait for you to tune in. Get the most out of each episode by checking out the show notes with links, resources and other related podcasts at: prenatalyogacenter.com Don't forget to grab your FREE guide, 5 Simple Solutions to the Most Common Pregnancy Pains HERE  If you love what you've been listening to, please leave a rating and review! Yoga| Birth|Babies (Apple) or on Spotify! To connect with Deb and the PYC Community:  Instagram & Facebook: @prenatalyogacenter Youtube: Prenatal Yoga Center Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes.”In this episode, we chat about premature rupture of membranes (PROM) with Noel, a stay-at-home mom from Texas, as she shares her personal experiences and successful VBAC story. We dive deep into the importance of finding a supportive provider and the realities of induction. Noel was never able to fully dilate during her first birth. She and Meagan talk about the impact of meaningful milestones (like reaching 10 centimeters!) during a VBAC labor. Also, it's never too early to hire your doula!Premature Rupture of MembranesPreterm and Term Prelabor Rupture of MembranesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is March which means it is my second C-section baby's birth month. I love March so much because it's also when the sun starts feeling a little bit warmer, and you start hearing some birds chirp. We're kind of getting to that spring season, depending on where you are. Let's be honest, I'm in Utah, so it's still probably snowing every day in March. But I love March so much. And we're kicking it off with a really great episode. We have our friend, Noel. Hello, Noel.Noel: Hi.Meagan: I am so excited for her to be on today. She is actually in Texas, and tell us where again in Texas.Noel: The Woodlands, Texas. It's right near Houston.Meagan: Okay, perfect. And this is where you had your baby?Noel: No, so I actually had my baby in Dallas. That's where we were living at the time.Meagan: You were in Dallas. It says it right here on your little form. Okay, so she was in Dallas, you guys. So Dallas peeps or really just Texas peeps or really anybody. We know people travel for support and things like that. This is definitely a story to listen to. And then we are going to be talking a little bit about PROM. If you haven't ever heard about PROM, PROM is P-R-O-M and that means premature rupture of membranes, which means your water breaks, but labor doesn't really start, so it breaks prematurely to labor beginning.There's also PPROM, premature rupture of membranes, which means your baby is preterm. So we're going to dive into that in just a minute. But I wanted to tell you a little bit more about Noel. She is a stay-at-home mom with two boys. One is 3.5 and one is 5, so it's been a little bit since she had her baby. She actually submitted a while ago. We found this and I was like, I really want to talk about this because one, we talk about PROM, two, we talk about finding a supportive provider, and three, we talk about induction. I think it's important to note that if VBAC is more ideal without induction stereotypically, but it is still very, very possible with induction. I think there are so many people who are told that it's not possible out there or don't think it's possible or think that the risk is just astronomically increased when it comes to induction, and that's not true. So Noel has been doing lots of great things. In fact, she just told me a fun thing. She just started a company. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Noel: Yeah. So we just started a travel agency. It's called Noel Mason Travel, and I'm specializing in Disney. I love Disney, Disney cruises, Universal, all-inclusives, and then eventually just catch-all travel.So yeah. I'm excited. Meagan: Love it. Fun fact about me that you might not know, and it's even more about my husband, we're a big Disney family. In fact, we just went to Disney World for the second time this year. We just got back literally two days ago.Noel: Oh my gosh. We're about to go.Meagan: We love Disney World so much. And my husband is a die-hard Disney fan.Noel: It's so fun.Meagan: It's exciting.I was just told recently by a friend that we definitely need to try a cruise, so maybe we need to connect. But yes, if you guys are looking to take your family to Disney World, definitely reach out to Noel. Of course, you can ask VBAC questions. Noel: Yeah.Meagan: Okay, so I'm going to go back. In addition to starting a travel agency, she loves cooking and is very passionate about pregnancy. She actually started an Instagram documenting her VBAC journey. In addition to fun and travel, I wanted to see if you could tell us more about your Instagram page where people can go and follow that page from when you were doing that.Noel: Yeah, so it's called Docnoelmason. I'm obviously not a doctor, it was just kind of a joke. But I created that Instagram at a time when I was grieving my first birth. After therapy, I realized how important it was for me to just talk. It didn't matter if anyone was listening. I just wanted to talk and educate. I created this Instagram basically just to educate my friends, none of them who were pregnant yet, on how to avoid a C-section, C-section recovery, if you have one. It was just a video diary. There's so much content of me just sitting on the couch to my camera, ugly views, just talking about what was currently going on.Meagan: I love that. I think that's going to be something that people will connect with because that's where we're all at. We just want to sit there and hear where someone else who's going through the exact same thing is. I just feel like we connect so much and that's why I love our community on Facebook, and I love this podcast, and of course, we love our Instagram pages and things and hearing everybody connect. We've been told that people have made actual friendships through this community. It's so awesome. So thank you for sharing that. We will have all of the links for the Instagram page and her new travel agency in the show notes if you are interested in checking that out. We do have a topic of the week instead of a review of the week. If you're just joining us, we have, for so many years, done a review every single week where people comment and leave reviews, and we share them. We're still loving those, and we're still sharing those. So if you haven't yet, leave us a review on the podcast. It really does help us so much in so many ways and truly helps other Women of Strength just like you find the podcast. You can check that out at Google. You can Google "The VBAC Link" or on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to your podcast, leave a review. It'd be greatly appreciated. But today, we do have a topic of PROM. So like I mentioned, Noelle had PROM. I had PROM. She's gonna tell you more about her story of PROM. And I've shared my story a million times about PROM, but they say 10% of pregnancies will have PROM, premature rupture of membranes. I was 3 for 3. It just happened for me. That can be sometimes hard because water breaks, and what do we do? I mean, Noel, what were you told to do if your water broke? Did anyone say anything?Noel: With the first pregnancy, I was told to go straight to the hospital. Don't delay. Get there immediately. With the second pregnancy and a better team, I was told, "Just keep doing what you're supposed to do." Walk if you want to, but just act like nothing's happened.Meagan: Go carry on with normal life.Noel: Carry on. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. That is definitely something that we would suggest. Now, there are certain things that we want to watch out for. If our water breaks and it's green, nasty, meconium-stained, it might be a reason to go in to your provider or call your provider and have a discussion with them. There's prolapsed cord. That can happen, and that is a very serious situation where we need to get on our head and get our butt in the air and get to the hospital. If there is a cord coming out after your water breaks, it is an emergency situation and is not something to just hang out and carry on with normal life. But when water breaks, what I was instructed to do with my third pregnancy, also like you with a better team, a more educated self and I had doulas and midwives and everybody. It was your water breaks, you do a little check-in. What does the color look like? Okay, is it clear? How are you feeling? Do you feel like you have a fever? Do you feel flu-like symptoms? Maybe take your actual temperature and see if you have a temperature. Okay. We don't have a temperature. We're not contracting. All is well. Put a pad on. It's probably going to keep coming. Just to let you know, you will keep leaking and then keep going. Keep going. Now, it is important to know that it can take hours. I'm serious. Hours and hours for labor to start. And Noel's going to share her story in a second. But for me, it really took 18 hours until I was really going with my second. And then with my first, I actually started contracting soon-ish. So it might not be technically PROM, but I started cramping and contracting, but it really took until 12 hours for me to even be 3 centimeters dilated which was very normal as a first-time mom. Know that if your water breaks, it is not like, run to the hospital. We're having a baby right this second. You're gonna have a baby in the car. It's not always like that when your water breaks and contractions aren't starting. So just to let you know, about 95% of all births will occur within 28 hours of PROM when it happens at term at 37 weeks. Now, PPROM is, like I said, preterm premature rupture of membranes. That is something that you will probably want to go in for if your baby is preterm. That happens at about 3% of pregnancies. I just think it's important to note that it happens. Noel and I are proof of that. If it happens, it doesn't mean run. You don't have to run to the hospital. You don't have to think you're having a baby right this moment, but it's something I suggest checking in with your provider about beforehand saying, "If my water breaks, what would you suggest?" They might suggest go straight to the hospital. We know it's not necessarily what you need to do, but at least you know your provider's suggestions. Okay. All right, we are going to take a quick break for the intro, and then we're going to get into Noel's story. All right, Ms. Noel. I have taken so much of your time already, so thank you so much for talking PROM with me. Yeah, let's turn the time over to you.Noel: Okay. So with my first birth, I was the first of my friends to get pregnant and I just had this very fairytale view of pregnancy and birth. I really just knew what happened in movies. So like you said, the water breaks, it's water everywhere, and you run to the hospital. I just had no idea what to expect. I had listened to some birth stories enough to know that getting a doula would be important, but at the time, I thought that is way too expensive and something that I, in my first pregnancy, don't need which is so silly looking back now, especially with my C-section bill being what it was "too expensive". It would have saved me a lot of money. But yeah, I did no techniques like Spinning Babies, no chiro, no PT. I just felt very unprepared. And looking back now, I think my doctor really preferred it that way. I think she didn't ever push me in that direction. I also had SPD and it basically felt like a knife was jamming up anytime I would walk. And again, my doctor never pushed me in any direction. She just said, "Rest when you can." That was awful. I was also told I had an anterior placenta which is a weird thing to remember, but I remember being a little bit scared by that. I guess that's why I logged it. They told me there was no risk to having one. It didn't really matter. But now looking it up, of course I know that can really affect the position of your baby. So flash forward to my growth scan. No surprise, I was told that he was sunny-side up. Of course, I asked, "Is there anything I need to do? Does that matter?" And the doctor said, "No, totally fine. Doesn't matter." You'll have a healthy Baby. So I said, "Okay." They found my fluid was low on that scan as well. Of course, I didn't ask what the level was. I just said, "Okay." They said, "We want to induce you in the next few days." So again, I was so excited to have this baby out. With my first one, I was like, let's get it on the books.Meagan: That's very common.Noel: Yeah. Yeah. So many of my friends I see doing the same thing. Again, you just don't know any better. You're ready to not be pregnant. We scheduled it for July 3rd, which again, I think was a huge mistake a day before a holiday. But again, I wasn't really thinking. I was put on Pitocin. I was already a little bit dilated, put on Pitocin and I was dilating about a centimeter every hour. Pretty uneventful. I would have to move positions. The baby's heart was acting up a little bit, but nothing really to worry about. I got to 9 centimeters. They brought out the table, all the fun vacuum forceps, and I was ready to go. That was probably 4:00. Well, every hour they kept coming in and checking me, and I was still a 9. So a couple hours into that, my doctor came in and said, "We're going to have an emergency C-section." That was that. No questions, just this is what's happening.Meagan: Can I ask why they called an emergency? Was baby struggling or did they just use the emergency to justify as being a Cesarean?Noel: Yeah, I think at the time of day, "Let's get this baby out of you before it's midnight. We want to go home." But no, aby was fine. Like I said, the heart was acting up a little bit, but no one was concerned. She just said, "This is too long to be dilated like this and not have any movement." Again, a first-time mom, I was just like, okay. I remember crying. My mom's crying. I'm crying. We're both just a little nervous about what's about to happen. The doctor came in and sees us crying and goes, "Don't worry, I'm going to have you back in that bikini by the end of summer." It still just has stuck with me what a routine moment this was for her and not a big deal to her. She just thought I would be worried about my body. It was just so ridiculous. The birth was fine. You know, we talked about the Bachelorette. It just was not what I thought would happen as they were operating.Meagan: During your birth?Noel: During my surgery, both the JOBs are talking about the Bachelorette, and I'm chiming in, and I'm just thinking, this is not what I had planned. This is not the moment I envisioned. It was really weird. So that next morning I'm recovering and my mom comes in and is like, "Hey, I don't know if you know, but one of my friends had a VBAC after her C-section with her second baby. She had a VBAC." And I asked her what a VBAC was and we talked about it. Right then I decided, this is what I'm going to do. I'm not doing this again. I am not doing this again. I'm going to have a VBAC. Flash forward about a year, I decided we would get pregnant again or would start trying, and we got pregnant right away. Thank God. In this time, I happened to find this article on Google listing hospitals to avoid for C-sections in the United States. Yep. You know, the article. Mine was number eight. Number eight. I could only laugh at that point, like, okay, all right. This time I'm going to be doing my research.Meagan: Yeah.Noel: So when it came to choosing my provider, I really felt like that was the biggest thing that could set me up for success. I knew I wanted to have the baby in a hospital again. I wasn't sure if it was going to be with a midwife or OB. I joined a Facebook page. It wasn't ICAN, and it was a group our of Dallas. It was a C-section Awareness Group, the Dallas page. There was a supportive OB who was mentioned there.  I had an appointment with him and he was fine. Nothing to write home about. This was also during COVID, so all of those rules were in place and work mattered. I also started searching for a doula at 8 weeks because I just figured, if I'm going to have one, let's have one. I'm going to have them the whole time. One of those doulas suggested moving practices to a group called Dallas Midwife Associates, and now they're Midwife and Co. They are known for supporting VBACs, and the hospital that they deliver in Baylor is also known for just being a very VBAC-supportive hospital. So I switched to that group, and the coolest thing about them is you see a different midwife every appointment you go to. They just cycle you. So by the time you're ready to have your baby, you know everyone on the team. They all know you. You're not worried about your provider being on vacation. There's no pressure for induction or anything. They were so amazing and awesome cheerleaders. The OB who they are in practice with who would do a C-section if I needed one or became high-risk and had to go see him, he was also supportive. So that was awesome. I could not recommend them highly enough. But yeah, just preparing this time, I think, being so clear with myself about why I wanted this VBAC. For me, it was the biggest thing at the time was the recovery. My kids were going to be 21 months apart, and I did not see how I was going to be able to have a baby and another baby if I can't lift up the first one. He was still in a crib. I didn't see how that was going to work. And so the recovery was super important to me. The experience was important to me. I wanted to do everything in my power this time to know that if I had a C-section, it was a true emergency, and that I could look back on that birth and say, "Well, this is what was supposed to happen. This is why C-sections exist," and not, "Oh, gosh, I could have done XYZ differently this time." I also had the SPD again and was not about to let that fly. With a toddler, you're constantly moving, so I couldn't be in pain all the time. I went to go see a chiropractor. I went to physical therapy. They both recommended Spinning Babies as well as my doula. So I did Spinning Babies. I was kind of crazy about it. The whole don't recline more than 90 degrees, the flashlight trick thing, that was everything to me. So 30 weeks on, you would not catch me reclining. I sat with the best posture or just laid flat on the couch because I was not about to have a sunny-side-up baby.Meagan: I can totally relate to that. I didn't sit on a couch. I didn't even sit on a couch because I was like, I'll sink too much and it will turn my pelvis in. I remember driving all back up and pelvis tucked forward.Noel: On the tip of your chair.Meagan: On the tip of my chair not wanting to have a posterior baby at, all. And then I got one.Noel: It just shows you-- yeah, exactly. You're not really in control of it. I asked about my placenta this time. Again, that's nothing you can prevent, but I knew I had lower chances if it wasn't anterior. That was good for me to know that if it was, I would need to work even harder. I don't know how I could sit up any straighter, but do my best. And then I also had what's called an overactive uterus. I guess I just had constant Braxton Hicks. Google would tell you to go into the hospital, you are in labor. So many Braxton Hicks. My belly was just constantly hard. So because of that, I didn't do any of the tea. That would make it worse. Anytime I tried, I would have more Braxton Hicks.Meagan: Because it's a uterine toner. So that's what it is. It is made to help a uterus that is contracting be more efficient. If your uterus is hyperactive already contracting, it's going to try and make it contract.Noel: Yeah, it would go nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I did do the dates. I'm a big believer in the dates. Plus they taste awesome. So there was really no harm in that. Okay, so flash forward. It's 38 weeks. I was off and on higher blood pressure. But on that day, I had a reading of 137/95. They began to get a little worried and just said, "Okay, you should monitor this at, home that whole week, and then at 39 weeks, we can figure out if this is still a problem." They did mention an induction if the blood pressure continued to rise or stay the same. I came in at 39 weeks. I was planning on not getting my membranes swept. I wasn't into the risk of that, but with the induction looming, I guess I should say. They did test my blood pressure that day, and it was 137/100. The protein in the urine was negative, but they were still a little worried because it wasn't really going down. I went out to the parking lot. I called my doula, and we decided that I would get swept at that point. The induction was just going to be a few days away, so we figured the risk was probably worth it at that point and went ahead to get checked for how dilated I was. I really wanted to start with the Foley bulb instead of Pitocin if it was possible, but they ended up finding I was 4 centimeters dilated and 70% effaced. Meagan: Okay, that's great.Noel: It looked like I was ready to go. I got swept that same day. Again, I said this was COVID, and the shots had been out for like a month. I found a place for my husband to go get a COVID vaccine because I was crazy pregnant, hormonal, and I kept hearing all these horrible stories about husbands not being able to be in the birth because of them having COVID or something. He's a Baylor sports fan, and Baylor been awful for forever but happened to make it to the national championship that day and that night. He was like, "I don't want to feel sick for this game. I'm not going to get it." Of course, me being almost 40 weeks pregnant could have cared less how he felt and if he was going to feel sick, so the poor guy gets his shot. I'm having contractions at that point, thinking that it worked. So I'm walking around the living room like we're about to have this baby, and he starts shaking and drops his water. Glass shatters all over the ground. He came down with a 104 fever in the middle of this game he has been waiting for his whole entire life. I'm contracting. It was so stressful. So I called my neighbor and was like, "Hey, I think I'm having this baby tonight. I might need you to drive me to the hospital. I don't know if Luke's going to be able to be there." I mean, he was in bed, not okay. Awful, huh? It was so awful. I was just praying, "Lord, I know I've been asking for this baby to come, but please, please, please, can you stop all of this?" I woke up, and completely, everything had stopped. So thankfully, his fever went away throughout that next day. My doula recommended I go to get acupuncture. I thought acupuncture was the same thing as acupressure. I was expecting to go in for a massage.Meagan: Yeah, very different. Very different.Noel: Very different. Very different. I was a little freaked out by all the needles. The next morning I woke up and thought, "Oh, crap, that didn't work. What was the point?" That morning was the 8th. I had an appointment later that day to talk about the induction. I dropped off my son at school. I always heard on this podcast, labor will start when you put your kid to bed or they go to school. I always thought that was so funny. I didn't think it would be me. I dropped off my son at school. I go to my chiropractor's office, and I text my doula and I'm like, "I think my thighs are wet. I feel like maybe my water broke." But, you know, there's so much nasty stuff going on down there at the end of pregnancy. I kind of talked myself out of it. I went to the bathroom and was like, no, I'm just not in control my bladder anymore. I don't know what's going on. On the whole drive home, I just felt more and more liquid. And then getting out of my car, my neighbor and I were getting out at the same time, and I start walking and could just feel more and more wetness. I just stopped and waited for him to go inside. And finally it hit me like, okay, this is my water. Yeah. So I called my midwives and my doula and everyone said, "Just continue doing what you're doing. Everything looked normal. The liquid was clear. I really did not want to be induced. They knew that. My doula knew that." So that whole day, I did everything I could. I did curb-walking. My doula gave me a circuit to work on. I did the Spinning Babies, and nothing happened. My blood pressure was still high, so they wanted to see me that afternoon to do a stress test to make sure the baby was okay and check on blood pressure again. So I went in, did the stress test, baby was fine. But they said, "We'd like you to go to the hospital tonight around 9:00 if nothing has started." Nothing started, so I was upset. But again, I trusted my team and that was the difference here. They were still great with me having a VBAC with Pitocin. There was never a moment where they considered not letting that happen. So I got to the hospital, asked if I could labor until 3:00 AM and just see if it started. Didn't start. They got me on that Pitocin. And at this point, I was still hoping to do things as natural as I could while being in the hospital. I was really hoping to avoid an epidural. I again was not happy about the risks of an epidural, but those Pitocin contractions really were coming on strong. I remember going and trying to labor on the toilet and sitting on the toilet and feeling and hearing what felt like a bowling ball, like a dunk, and I think it was probably the baby settling into a better position. At the time, I hated it. I hated that feeling. I literally looked around and was like, "Did you guys hear that?" It felt internally so loud. At that moment, the contractions started coming on even stronger than before. At this point, it had been 24 hours without sleep. I was not taking the contractions well. I said, "Let's do a check. If I am an 8 or higher, I'm having this baby with that epidural. If not, we'll see what happens." I was still a 4. And so again, I don't think I would recommend it if you would like to go without an epidural. Don't get checked. Just don't get checked. I knew that. I knew that, but it was a different moment when I was actually in labor. So the upside is I was finally able to rest whenever I got that epidural. A couple hours later, I was a full 10 and ready to go. They had me labor down for a little bit, but I will never forget that moment as a VBAC mom when they told me I was out a 10 having never gotten to the 10. Oh, I get chills just thinking about it. It was so special. I labored down for an hour. They turned down the epidural. I could not feel my legs. And so again, Baylor is a teaching hospital. So I had a nurse in training, I guess I had my midwife and then they had a midwife in training at the time, and then husband and my doula all in my room just surrounded. My husband hates it when I say this, but it was the feminine energy. It was just so amazing. Everyone was so hyped and excited for me. I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes. I felt like I was in a throw up. I had this ugly rag on me, but I could have cared less. I was just so excited to get to push. The baby came out with my first. My first baby was 7 pounds-12 ounces, 21 inches long, a normal-sized baby. This baby came out and was 10-pounds, 4-ounces, and 24 inches long. I grew a mega-baby compared to this first one. It was just so great. I didn't do the growth scan with this baby because I was so afraid that if they told me that the baby was big that I might be tempted to get a C-section or scared out of having a VBAC. I knew our bodies were made to do this. No matter how big this baby is, my body can do it. So yeah, that was that.Meagan: Oh my gosh, that is amazing. I am so grateful that you had that team and that energy because that energy is so important, and I do believe that it helps us VBAC moms, and really any mom get through that end stretch that sometimes can be intimidating or it can be longer, and then I love hearing that you got to not only have your VBAC, but then it was like, "Not only did I VBAC, I VBAC'd with a baby that was almost three pounds heavier, bigger than my other baby." So many Women of Strength listen to this podcast. I'm sure you've seen it in your forums. People don't believe that they can do it because our providers and our system tell us we can't because we go through these growth ultrasounds and they create some fear. I love that. I love it so stinking much. That's so amazing. Congratulations.Noel: Thank you. Thank you. It was amazing.Meagan: Are there any other tips that you would suggest in you finding a provider or dealing with PROM and not getting frustrated? I think it said one of the best tips that you would give to someone was making sure your provider and the providers they work with are not just VBAC-friendly, but they're really supportive. Do you have any tips to that?Noel: Yeah. That is, again, what I always tell my friends because if your team doesn't trust that you can do this, that's going to really set you up for failure. I just know so many people who are like, "Oh yeah, I asked my doctor if I could have a VBAC after my C-section and they said, "Sure, we'll just see how this will go, and my heart drops." I'm like, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Actually, that's a red flag.Noel: It's a huge red flag. It's a huge red flag. Yeah. I know me who can be a warrior. It was really important to me that everyone who would be around me was supportive because if I had one person come in there and try to poke my bubble, it could start getting in my head and that I don't need that. So, yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Not even just your providers, but your team and your atmosphere around you. I mean, sometimes in that end of pregnancy when we're being told, "Oh, you why haven't had a baby yet?" or "Your baby's gonna get too big," especially if they were ever given a diagnosis of CPD where their pelvis is too small or anything like that, the things that people say can really get into our mind, so we have to protect that bubble and not let anyone try and poke it and pop it because you deserve to feel safe, love, supported, heard in that bubble.Noel: I think listening to the podcast. I listened to this podcast every single day while I would walk with my firstborn. That helped give me the security. I knew, okay, this other mom had this story that's similar to mine. I can do this. If she could do this, I could do this. So it didn't matter whenever I had people come in who had no idea what a VBAC was try to talk me out of it. You have no idea what you're talking about. I have equipped myself with so many other women's stories. Meagan: You're like, "I actually do."Noel: Yeah, right. I'm Dr. Noel Mason. I know it.Meagan: So yeah, I love that. I am Doc Noel. Another thing that I pulled out from your story was you reaching 10 centimeters and having that feeling and not even maybe realizing how badly you needed to get to that point or hear those words. They're just milestone markers. I was in that too. I needed to get past 3 centimeters because I was told that my body couldn't. Once I was past 3 centimeters, it was like, okay. Okay. Even though I knew in my mind I could dilate past three centimeters, I knew I could. There was still this weird hang up, so once I heard that number past 3 centimeters, I can't explain to you this utter relief and aha moment of like, okay. It gave me this surge of power and strength to hear these words. I think it's really important while we're preparing for our VBAC to process our past births and realize what might be triggering and what might be milestone markers that help encourage you and communicate that with your team. Let them know, "You guys, I have never made it past 9 centimeters. I hung out there forever. I was told I needed an emergency C-section. The number 10 is going to be a big deal for me. I need you guys to help me with that," or whatever it may be. Or, "I really don't want this to happen. Can you help me avoid this?" I think communicating with our team comes with preparing for a VBAC, but also processing things mentally and understanding those big moments that you need is okay to be like, "Yeah. That actually was a big deal for me. This is a big deal for me." My water breaking was a trigger for me. But then to hear that my body could get past 3 centimeters on its own was a huge deal. So I just love that you were like, "I felt that," because I could just really remember back when I felt that moment, of like, yes, yes, I can.Noel: I can do this.Meagan: I can do this. And Women of Strength, as you're listening, I want you to know you can do this. Noel and I are two of thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds on this podcast who have come before you who have done it. It is possible, but you do have to set yourself up in all the right ways. We know even then, sometimes you can do everything right and still not have the outcome that you want, but our goal here at The VBAC Link is to help you have a better experience. So getting that information, building your team, finding that supportive provider, all of that, and then also knowing your options if a Cesarean is needed, I just think it's so important to know that you deserve it. You can do it. You are worth it. You are worth it. And like Noel mentioned in the beginning, I didn't hire a doula because of costs. I just thought it could be by myself, and then she had this massive Cesarean bill. Sometimes these doulas or education courses or whatever, going to PTs and chiropractors may seem like it's too much financially or you can't do it, but in the end, it really pays off. I'll tell you, there's not a single day in my life that I look back and be like, I can't believe that I went to this two chiropractors and paid this much for that, paid for my doulas, paid for an out-of-hospital birth. I never even questioned that. That money was well spent. Even if I didn't have a VBAC and had to transfer and have a Cesarean, it still would have been well spent because I had a better experience. I felt empowered. I'm also going to plug Be Her Village. I'm sure you guys have heard me talking about it before. I love that company. If you are in that situation where you don't feel like you can financially do it, go register for Be Her Village. You guys, it's a registry for doulas and postpartum and PT and chiropractor and all these things. It's a place where you can go because I'm sure Noel will say it's worth it.Noel: Definitely. Yes, definitely.Meagan: Yeah. And hire a doula early on. I think having a doula early on in your pregnancy who can literally walk through this journey with you is so powerful. It might not be something where you talk to her every day. It might not be like that, but having that person in your corner, I love that you were able to go outside and call and be like, "This is a situation. Let's walk through it," and have that sounding ear and extra opinion and in the end supporting you in whatever you decided, and you decided together that you wanted to do that.I think it's so, so powerful. So as a reminder also, we have a whole registry of VBAC doulas. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula. They are literally trained in VBAC and know the options and want to help you navigate that. Any other tips that you have?Noel: No, but thinking of the doula thing, again, at eight weeks, that is so important. I know a lot of people are like, "I don't even know if this baby is viable yet." I don't even think I had had my first--Meagan: Ultrasound?Noel: Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. But if it weren't for interviewing those doulas, I probably would have stuck with that original provider that I had in mind and gone the whole pregnancy with them. Because if they would have told me to switch at 20-something weeks and my provider was fine and supportive, there would have been no reason to switch. I'm so glad I talked to them when I did.Meagan: Yes. Oh, that is such a powerful thing to remind people of because doulas know the area. Doulas work with these providers all the time. It's outside of our scope to be like, "This provider is garbage. Don't go," or tell you what to do exactly. But at the same time, and maybe it's not really outside of our scope to say that. Maybe it's not really. It's maybe just not appropriate to be like, "This is garbage." But at the same time, we can be like, "Hey, this is what I've seen. I would encourage you to check these people out also. Hey, here are some questions to ask for your provider."Noel: Yes.Meagan: I love that. The doulas know the providers in the area, and they can help guide you through what really is that supportive provider.Noel: Yeah. And supportive hospital or birth center, whatever. They know. They've been there. They have been to more than we have. Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. There is a hospital here in Utah that anytime someone wants to VBAC, at first, for a long time, I was like, "Okay, you know, just do whatever feels best," until I saw too much and now I was like, "Listen, I'm gonna be straight with you, and you don't even have to hire me if you don't like my honesty. But if you want a VBAC, you're going to the wrong place."Noel: That's powerful.Meagan: I have said that. You're going to the wrong place. Trust these people. They know. They've seen it. They're there. They're really there.Noel: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. Okay, well thank you so much again for your time today and your stories and congratulations on your cute, chunky baby.Noel: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aly, host of the podcast Peaceful Homebirth, shares with us her birth stories and how she went from having a cesarean in the hospital to VBACs at home.Aly's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peacefulhomebirth/Birth Mindset Mentorship: https://birthsathome.com/products/birth-mindset-mentorshipMy offerings & links: https://msha.ke/birthsathomePodcast Love Donation: https://birthsathome.com/products/podcast-donation

“I am not a TOLAC patient. I am a VBAC!”Julie sits down with Colleen, a mother from Long Island, New York, who shares her journey towards achieving a successful VBAC despite facing challenges such as gestational diabetes. Colleen recounts her traumatic first birth experience and the uphill battle she faced with her second pregnancy. She was bombarded with messages that her baby would suffer permanent nerve damage from shoulder dystocia, but her intuition told her otherwise. Though her baby's weight was predicted to be off the charts, Colleen's daughter was born weighing just 7 pounds, 15 ounces. This episode emphasizes the importance of understanding your options, having a supportive team, and trusting your instincts during birth. The VBAC Link Blog: The Facts About Shoulder DystociaEvidence Based Birth® - The Evidence on Big BabiesEvidence Based Birth® - The Evidence on Induction for Big BabiesCoterie Diaper ProductsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details ​​Julie: All right. Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Julie Francom here with you today. I am super excited that we have with us Colleen here today. Colleen is going to share her story about her VBAC with gestational diabetes and the struggle that she had working towards her VBAC. Now I am really excited to introduce Colleen to you. She is from Long Island, New York. I do not have a Review of the Week. I forgot to pull that up, so we are going to just do a little fun fact about birth preparation instead of a review because I forgot to look at the review. So sorry, Meagan. I think probably the best thing that you can do to prepare for any type of birth is to find out what all of your options are. I feel like that's like such a good tip for first-time moms or going in for a VBAC or even if you want to schedule a repeat C-section or even an initial C-section. I think that one of the biggest disservices we can do to ourselves is not knowing the options that are available to us and not standing up and speaking up for ourselves when the things that we want are not what is done, normally or typically in whatever setting we're choosing to birth at. I love the phrase "if you don't know your options, you don't have any". I think that that is true. And I think that there's never a circumstance where we can be too prepared going into any type of birth experience. So if you're listening, I know that you're already on top of that because you want to get educated and inspired about either VBAC or what your options are for birthing after a C-section. So stick in there. We have a VBAC prep course for parents and for doulas to learn more about VBAC as well. You can find that on our website, thevbaclink.com.All right, let's go ahead and get into it. I would love to introduce you to Colleen. She is a mom of two. She's a teacher living in Long Island, New York. Her first birth and postpartum experiences were incredibly traumatic. She says, "The moment that they wheeled me to the OR for my C-section, I knew I wanted a VBAC. After being diagnosed with gestational diabetes in my second trimester, I faced an uphill battle to achieving my VBAC." And finally, after delivering her daughter, it was the most healing experience she could have ever imagined. We're going to talk a little bit more about those struggles and gestational diabetes and maybe a bait-and-switch, it sounds like, from her new provider at the end of the episode. So hang in there. I'm excited to hear from Colleen. Colleen, are you there?Colleen: Hi.Julie: Hi. All right, you go ahead and get started, and I am super excited to hear your story.Colleen: All right. I guess I'll start with my C-section because that's, I guess, where every VBAC starts. So my pregnancy with my son was textbook perfect. Everything that you want to go right did go right, so I naively expected my birth to follow that same pattern. Hindsight is 20/20. I know I shouldn't have, especially since I've been listening to different birth podcasts for a while, and I know that's really not how it goes, but I guess as a first-time mom, I didn't think about that stuff. So when I went into labor with him, I think I was 38 weeks and 5 days, just shy of 39 weeks. It was an incredibly long labor. I was in labor with him for 40 hours. We stayed home that first day, and then when things started to progress the next day, we headed to the hospital. When I got there, they checked me and did all of the administrative type of things, and I was already 4 centimeters dilated, so they kept me. The first thing that they asked was about an epidural. I knew that I had wanted one, but I didn't know when in my labor I had wanted one. I just heard from a bunch of different people that sometimes anesthesia can take a very long time to get there. So I requested it immediately, not anticipating them to show up five minutes later. I think my husband walked out of the room to fill out another piece of paperwork when he came back there. The whole anesthesia team was in there. I got it at about 4 centimeters dilated, and then just expected for things to go as birth is "supposed" to go. I ended up dilating very, very quickly. Within 10 minutes, I was 8 centimeters dilated. But with that, because it was such a rapid jump, my son's heart rate wasn't able to keep up with it. So there were a ton of people in the room in a matter of seconds. They ended up giving me shots in my thighs to slow my labor. I'm not sure what the medication was. They just did it, and then that was that. And then I stayed in the bed for about 10 hours. I'd asked my nurse to come in and help me move a little bit, and she told me no. She told me because I had an epidural, I could not move. But things were taking a very long time. So at one point, she came in. She's like, "I'll just give you a peanut ball." But at that point, I was still on my back. They had me laboring on my back. She told me to just shift my legs over, and she draped them over the peanut ball, and then left again. And then later on, I started feeling pressure. They came in and they were like, "Okay, yeah, we can do some practice pushes," or, no, let me backtrack. I'm sorry. It took a while, so they ended up pushing Pitocin before I started feeling the pressure, and then a little bit after that, that's when that happened. So they came in and they were like, "Okay, we can do some practice pushes." And I think they let me do two. During those pushes, my son's heart rate dropped dramatically. At that point, it was me, my husband, the hospital OB, not even my OB, just the staff one, and a nurse in the room. But when his heart rate dropped, I think there were 30 people in the room. So at that point, they flipped me over on all fours and just ran out of the room with me. They didn't tell me what was going on. They didn't tell my husband what was going on, so he was in the corner panicking. They were really shoving him back into the corner. I remember being so, so terrified of what was going on just because I didn't know what was happening. All I knew was they were rushing me to the OR. This was 2022. So it was the end of COVID. I remember crying so hard that my mask was just absolutely disgusting. When I got into the OR, there was still no information on what was happening, and they just pushed the full dose of the epidural or spinal, whatever it was, for the C-section. My OB was in the OR at that point. So the practice I was with was so large that even though I had met with a different OB every single appointment, I'd never met this one. She ended up being absolutely phenomenal, but it was very intimidating not meeting the person who was delivering my baby ahead of time. So they have me in the OR, and she says, "Okay, if you are okay with it, we can try to deliver him vaginally with a vacuum." I agreed to that because the last thing I wanted was a C-section. The idea of major surgeries really freaks me out. I definitely didn't want that if I could avoid it. With the vacuum, they let me push three times to try to get him out. Obviously, that did not work. So I ended up having a C-section. The first thing that my OB had said to me after I delivered was that I was a perfect candidate for a VBAC. She said the incision was low. Everything went beautifully. She told me that the C-section was not my fault, which I didn't realize how supportive that was in the moment because I was already beating myself up from it. So then we move into recovery and the mother/baby unit, and everything seemed to be going okay. And then the day that I was supposed to be discharged, I started having, like, I wouldn't even call it a headache because I get migraines so a headache to me is different than to other people, I guess. But I couldn't move. I couldn't walk. When I would stand up, I felt like I was going to fall over. So they added a couple of extra days to my stay, and I ended up having a spinal fluid leak, but the anesthesia team didn't want to say it was that. They were saying it was everything other than that. They said I pulled a muscle when I was pushing. You name it, and they said it was that. It was everything other than a spinal fluid leak. I ended up having some-- I don't even know what kind of procedure it was. It was like a COVID test on steroids. They put long swabs up my nose and essentially numbed my sinus cavity and sent me home because it helped a little bit. And then five days postpartum, I had to go back to my OB because my liver numbers were elevated. She took one look at me and she said, "You have a spinal fluid leak, and you need to go back for a blood patch." Five days postpartum, I was away from my son for literally the entire day. The hospital did not offer me a pump or anything like that. It was just very scary and traumatic, and it set the tone for my whole postpartum experience. Looking back on it now, I describe it as like being in a black hole in comparison to where I am now. So after that whole experience, my husband and I knew that we wanted more kids, but we also knew we needed to change some things because I didn't want to end up with another C-section, and he was very on board with whatever my birth wishes were because he wanted me to have a very different experience than I did the first time around. So then when I was pregnant with my daughter, at the beginning, they were fine, but also the pregnancy was very, very different. While my son was textbook perfect, this one felt like what could go wrong was going wrong.  I know there could have been worse things, but in the moment, it felt very big. I ended up having a subchorionic hematoma. The early bleeding was very, very scary, and my OB still wouldn't see me even though I'd been bleeding for a while. Everything ended up being fine with that. I stayed with the same practice at that point. I was going through everything. Later on in my pregnancy, I obviously did the glucose test and ended up with gestational diabetes. That was in the back of my mind. But then as I was going forward with it, there was very little support or information about gestational diabetes. I got a phone call on a Friday that said, "You have this, and here's a number for you to call, and good luck". The first meeting I had with a diabetes educator, I was under the assumption would be a one-on-one meeting. I didn't realize until 10 minutes before the meeting that it was a group meeting. In bold, capitalized, underlined lettering, it said, "You cannot talk about anything personal because of HIPAA." I had so many questions that I knew were specific to me, and I couldn't ask them. We were sitting in this meeting, and the educator is just going through a PowerPoint of doom and gloom situations of what could happen if gestational diabetes isn't controlled. Then she emailed us all a PDF with like a specific carb goal for the day or whatever it was, and then gave us all prescriptions for the glucose monitors and all of that stuff, but no direction or anything, and was kind of just like, "Okay, well let's make a follow-up appointment for individuals with you guys." And then that was that. I still had no idea what was going on. I picked up the prescription and was just like panicked the whole time. I didn't know what I could eat, what was safe and what wasn't. And then on top of all of that, I felt like I did something wrong and there was just a lot of guilt and heavy feelings surrounding it. When I started to try to research things for gestational diabetes, there was very, very little that I could find. It just felt almost like gestational diabetes wasn't something that we can talk about. It's just something that happens and you've got to deal with it. So eventually I figured out what worked for me and I realized that it was very, very different from that blanket carb gold sheet that they had given us. Their goals were like 60 grams of carbs or something like that for certain meals, and my body just couldn't handle that. My goal was to try to avoid medication if I could because I knew that could impact my chances of having a VBAC because of different providers' thoughts about it. So after I got diagnosed with gestational diabetes and started navigating all of that, I was still talking with my provider about a VBAC and how that was the goal, that was the plan, and I didn't want anything else. I started finding that some OBs okay with it while others weren't. They wouldn't say that they weren't okay with it. I would go back and look over my notes, and there would be a line that said we talked about a C-section. I'm like, no, we didn't. What are you saying? A C-section never came up. I don't know what you're saying. I got a call out of nowhere one day to schedule a C-section. I'm like, "I have no idea what's going on here, and that's not what I want. That's not what I want to do, so I'm not doing it." At my next appointment, the doctor I had met with was saying like, "Oh, since you had a C-section before, we just schedule one just in case. It's what we do with all previous C-section patients." So at that point, I was like, okay, whatever, I'll schedule it with them, but I'm also going to start the process of switching because I wasn't liking how it was very inconsistent.I thought I wanted a smaller practice. I ended up switching to one that my sister-in-law used. At first, everything was fine. I met with two of the three doctors who could potentially be delivering my baby. One of them was very supportive right off the bat. "Yeah, I'm looking at all of your notes, you seem like a great candidate as long as gestational diabetes stays under control, then there's no problem. You can have a VBAC." And then the other provider had a completely different view on it. My first appointment with her, when we were going through everything, she was kind of just like, "Well, you have gestational diabetes, so you should really think about how important a VBAC is for you, and you might need to switch practices." That really caught me off guard. I had never left an OB appointment feeling that upset. I remember crying in my car for a half an hour before I could even pull out of the parking lot because I was just so overwhelmed and upset and had just so many different feelings that I couldn't put my finger on. At this point, I had hired a doula. I was talking to her before I left, and she was really helpful in calming me down. As my pregnancy went on, that was really the role that she ended up playing before I gave birth was really just keeping me and reminding me what I wanted because as things went on, there were the growth scans and all of the other good things that they do during pregnancy. The first growth skin I had, she was measuring big. And they're like, "Oh, she's in the 80th percentile. As long as she stays here, it's fine, but if she gets to be any part of her gets to be over 90%, then you have to have a C-section. You will have to deliver at 39 weeks and there is no shot of anything else."Julie: Oh my gosh, that's overwhelming.Colleen: Yeah, it was a lot thrown at me and this is where the uphill battle started because every scan that they did after that, she was measuring big. Toward the end, she was over the 90th percentile. And in the last month of my pregnancy, I had the weekly non-stress tests and scans, measuring my fluid and all of that stuff. But every single week was a conversation about the risks of a VBAC. They really, really, really were pushing a C-section, but they didn't talk about any risks of a repeat C-section which I find interesting now. But something else that I thought was unkind was the way that they were explaining their risks of a VBAC. They really were focusing on shoulder dystocia. So when my mom had me, I was a very big baby and I actually did have shoulder dystocia. I am physically handicapped from it. So them hammering on the risks of shoulder dystocia as if I didn't know and I was unaware of what could happen was really offensive. One of the providers actually at one point had said that my birth injury wasn't that bad. I was so caught off guard by that comment that I didn't even know what to say.Julie: Wow. Can I ask what it is? Do you mind sharing? You don't have to share.Colleen: No, that's fine. I have left herbs palsy. So it's like a nerve damage essentially. The way that they had to get me out of my mom without using forceps or anything like that, they just put too much pressure on one side and ruined the way that the nerve endings are connected. Julie: Oh.Colleen: Yeah. So when I was born, the doctor told my mom I wouldn't have any use of my left arm. My mom had me in physical therapy from the time I was 6 weeks old until I was 12 years old. Because of that extensive physical therapy, I do have a really decent range of motion in my left arm. It's one of those things where I think about it and I'm like, if I had lost the use of it at some point, I think I'd be more upset. It's annoying, but it's my normal. It's my everyday, and it really doesn't impact my everyday lifestyle, I guess.  I'm able to take care of my baby. One of the comments that the provider made was actually along the lines of like, "Oh, well, yours is fine. You can actually do things. But what if your baby has shoulder dystocia and your baby can't use their arm at all?" They kept bringing up the risks of stillbirth with it, and it was just very scary. Especially because I personally know what can happen with shoulder dystocia. I guess going through it, I had like this deep, deep sense that that was not something that I was going to experience. I don't know what that feeling was, but I knew in my bones that it wasn't happening. But every week, they were talking about the risk of shoulder dystocia and really expanding on how serious it could be. And my last appointment before I gave birth-- so that appointment was on a Wednesday and I had my daughter on Friday. So that Wednesday appointment, my doctor is going through everything again with the risks of shoulder dystocia. They had made me schedule a just-in-case C-section for the day after my due date. They were really trying to get me to switch it to some time in 39 weeks. Every week they were like, "Oh, just give us a call if you change your mind." I was not changing my mind at any point. So the last appointment, right before I was going to leave the room, my doctor was like, "What was your last growth scan?" And then he looked it up, he's like, "Oh, it's been a month. Let's have another growth scan today."Julie: Oh no. Colleen: Two days before I gave birth.And think you back. I'm like, who does that? There's no room for anything in there so obviously, the baby's gonna look huge. I go in. They do the scan. My fluids are fine. But her belly was what was constantly measuring huge which is why they were so insistent that she was going to have shoulder dystocia. The way that this practice is run, they do the scans after you meet with the doctor. Typically, you don't even talk about the scan until the following week which I found very strange. They did this scan. I was like, "I'm not even going to talk about it with my doctor, so whatever, you do what you want." But he had forgotten to write me a doctor's note, and when I asked about it at the front, they had to call him forward. It was at the same time that the ultrasound tech was logging all of the measurements, so he was asking her about it. They ended up having me go back into the office. And in that moment, I knew it was not going to be a good meeting at all. They're going over it, and the ultrasound tech is talking about the way that the measurements work. They do the diameter of the belly and it'll spit out whatever week gestation that matches. She was essentially like, "This baby's belly is off the charts. I can't even get a gestational week because it's so big." Yeah. So I'm standing there like, this is not going to go how I want it to. So my doctor pulls me into a different exam room, and we're talking about what the ultrasound tech had said. And again, shoulder dystocia. Before that appointment, I had gone in and I was like, "I don't even know if I want a cervical check. I know that they really mean very, very little." So before I had the cervical check, I asked, "If I'm dilated at all, instead of jumping right to the C-section that we have scheduled, can I come in that day and can we try for a Foley induction?" And he was like, "Yeah, I'm okay with that." So then he sees the results of the growth scan and backtracked and was like, "No, I'm not comfortable with that. If you walk in in active labor on your due date, we are going to send you right to the OR." It was very devastating. I'd already talked with him about my previous birth and how I was very scared of another C-section. I was scared of an epidural. My plan was to do an unmedicated VBAC because I didn't want to even risk another spinal fluid leak. He brushed all of that off and was like, "Oh, well, it's a planned C-section, so it's going to be very different. The needle they use for a spinal is so much smaller than an epidural, so the risks of that are so much lower." He was not acknowledging anything that I was saying. He was just still pushing, "You need a C-section. You need a C-section. You need a C-section." A week or so before that, he had even told me if I had wanted to go to 41 weeks, that he was going to give me my files and tell me to find another provider because he did not want to be a part of malpractice. At that point, I think I was just so thrown off and confused by everything that I didn't see it as big of a red flag as it actually was. But also when he told me it was too late to switch, no other provider would have taken me at like 37-38 weeks, especially with the gestational diabetes. I went home after that appointment feeling absolutely devastated. It was the pattern of the last month, just completely devastated talking to my doula about it and her reinstalling that confidence in me. That night, I went to sleep and was starting to be like, "All right, I guess I have to start really thinking about, what if this is another C-section?" The following morning I woke up and I guess because the last thing that I had talked about regarding my birth was with my doula and her telling me, "You can do this. I've never seen somebody as confident. You can do this. Your body grew this baby. Your body can birth this baby. You can do this." I had that in my mind when I woke up. And I was, I guess, a little bit extreme in my thinking because I called a midwife group and was going to switch at over 39 weeks pregnant. I'm like, I'm gonna make this work. Some way or another, I'm doing it. I planned on not showing up for the C-section that I had scheduled the following week because when I woke up, I was just like, they cannot cut me open if I don't consent to it. If I walk in in labor, legally, they cannot deny me care. I'm having this baby the way that I want to, and everyone else can just get on board or they can get out. That was Thursday morning, and I had taken off of work for Thursday-Friday because I just couldn't do it. I couldn't teach and give my students the all that they deserved. I was coming home so exhausted. I took that Thursday as my last hurrah with my son. We ended up walking around. I took them to a local farm, and we had a really good day together. The whole day I was like, I'm walking all day, so maybe I'll go into labor. It did not happen. So then the next day, same kind of thing. I had originally intended to go out with my son, but I woke up and I had this overwhelming feeling of, I just can't leave today. I need to stay near my house. I had listened to an episode of The VBAC Link, and I think the woman whose podcast episode it was, it said that either her midwife or her doula told her to go for a two-hour walk. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna go for a very long walk. They can't hurt anything.I ended up walking for an hour. While I was walking, I started having some contractions, but they weren't consistent. I really wasn't convinced it was anything because I'd been having such intense Braxton Hicks contractions for a month or so that it was just like, this can't be it. So we got home, and I was just going about the day with my son. Nothing was going on. I decided to pump a couple times, so I did that, and by the time his bedtime rolled around, I was having fairly consistent contractions, but I still was not convinced. I was like, this is prodromal labor. There's no way this is actual labor. I'm just gonna have to be mad about this for another day. I even texted my doula, "If this isn't actually it, I'm going to go build a hut somewhere and hide there until I give birth," because I was so tired of talking to my doctors and seeing them and being upset by everything they were saying. So the night's going on, and my contractions are picking up and getting closer together. I still was not convinced that I was in labor. I got to the point where I was like, "All right, well, if this is actually it, I should rest." So I tried to lay down, but I had one contraction, and I could not stay on my back for it. I had to get up and move. I decided to get in the shower, and I didn't think anything of it, but after I had a contraction or two in there, I asked my husband to just keep an eye on how far apart they were. At that point, I wasn't paying attention to the clock at all. I was in there, and my husband opened the bathroom door, and he's like, "Colleen, your contractions are three minutes apart." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Maybe we should call the doula." So we did that, and I'm still laboring. I listened to podcasts where women talk about being in labor land, and I didn't understand what that was until looking back on my birth experience because after I told my husband to call my doula, I have very little recollection of interacting with him or talking to her on the phone or anything because the contractions were just so intense. I got to my bedroom and was leaning over the side of my dresser. I didn't move for I don't even know how long it was, but I was there. I couldn't move. I was drinking a little bit of water, and then all of a sudden my water broke. I guess at that point, that's when I was like, oh, okay, I guess I am in labor, and this is happening. So my husband was on the phone with his brother asking him, "Hey, potentially, you might need to come over and watch our son." And while he's on the phone, my water broke. So he's like, "No, you need to come now." In that time, he had his brother on one phone, my doula on the other, and he's trying to corral me to the car, but I was paralyzed and could not move. I was there until all of a sudden I had this mental break almost where I was like, "I need to move right now. If I don't move, I'm having this baby in my bedroom. and that is not the plan." So I waddled myself to the car, and it was hands down the most dangerous car ride of my life. I didn't buckle my seatbelt. I was backward on the seat just trying to like get through everything. My doula had given me a comb, so I was squeezing that during every contraction. I lost my mom when I was pregnant, so I had a very deep connection with her at that point and was talking to my mom, like, "Don't let me give birth in the car, Mom. Do not let me do that." So we eventually get to the hospital, and I had no recollection of this car ride. I remember being at the last major intersection before the turn for the hospital, but other than that, no idea that we were even in the car really. We get to the hospital, and things were picking up so quickly that my husband didn't even find a parking lot. He just pulled into the drop-off area and stopped the car, turned it off, and we made our way into the hospital. My doula met us there, and we had an off-duty nurse end up bringing us a wheelchair, and one of the security guards at the front ended up literally running us back into labor and delivery. That was around 11:00.When I got into the delivery room, it was three or four people, but it felt like a lot of people were there, and they were all trying to get my information and all the forms that I would have filled out beforehand. So at one point, somebody had mentioned a C-section. I remember saying, "I'm not having a C-section." The OB who was on call had said something about me being a TOLAC patient. I yelled at her, "I am not a TOLAC patient. I am a VBAC."They got me onto the bed finally, and they're trying to get the monitors on me. When they finally did, the way that I was kneeling on the bed, the baby's heart rate wasn't liking it. Again, the OB was like, "Okay, maybe we need to think about a C-section." When she said that, I said, "I'm not consenting to a C-section if I'm not guaranteed skin-to-skin afterward." The nurses were kind of a little nervous with the way that I was responding there. My doula was like, "Okay, before we jump to that, let's turn her over and see if things change." So after that contraction, they moved me, and the baby's heart rate was fine. In that moment for me, I didn't really recognize what was happening. But afterward, my husband said that he was very nervous, and he was just yelling for the doula to help in that situation because he didn't know what to do. At that point, when they finally got me situated, I was ready to go at 10 centimeters, fully effaced. Baby was at a zero station, ready to go. And somebody was like, "Oh, do you want an epidural?" And me, my husband, and my doula were all like, "No, there's no epidural happening." So, they got me situated, and I think I pushed maybe five times before the baby was born.Julie: Wow.Colleen: Yeah, I came in hot.Julie: Yeah, you did.Colleen: I pushed. I felt the ring of fire. And the most incredible feeling was after that, feeling her body turn as it came out. It was the ring of fire, and then she flew out after that. There was absolutely no shoulder dystocia there. She was born at 11:38. We parked the car at 11, and she was born at 11:38. At my last scan, they were saying she was going to measure over 9.5 pounds. She was born, and she was 7 pounds, 15 ounces. My doula looked at me and she's like, "If you had had a C-section for a baby that wasn't even 8 pounds, I would have been so mad for you." I got my golden hour. I got skin-to-skin for that entire time. They did all of the baby's testing on me, and they were so respectful of that mother/baby bonding time that I really lost out on with my son. I didn't realize how much it impacted me until after I had my daughter, and I got what I had my heart set on. It was the most healing thing. I didn't realize I had things that needed to be healed in ways that they were. I felt so incredibly powerful, especially after everything was said and done. The nurse who stayed with us and then ended up bringing us to the mother/baby unit, I had asked her, "How often do you see unmedicated VBACs?" And she was like, "It's very, very rare because the providers are nervous about it. They want to have the epidural in place as a just-in-case." But I knew, for me, the fear of a repeat spinal fluid leak was bigger than the fear of any of the pain that would have happened. I know from listening to The VBAC Link that if it were a real emergency, having an epidural ahead of time wouldn't have done anything because it takes a while for the epidural to kick in. Even if I had gotten an epidural when I got to the hospital, it would not have helped me in any way. But she was completely healthy. There were no issues. She passed all of her blood sugar testing which I was really worried about. And then, my blood sugar was fine afterward also. Even still, it's very confusing trying to navigate this super strict diet that I had for so much of my pregnancy to now just being like, "All right, you're fine. It didn't even exist. Go back to eating however you wanted." I don't know. It's very, very confusing. Out of all of the things from my pregnancy, having no support from my providers on the VBAC side of things, and then having no guidance, I should say, with gestational diabetes, those were hands-down the most difficult things. But I did it and I'm still feeling very powerful for that.Julie: Yes, I love that. How old is your baby now?Colleen: She's four weeks.Julie: Oh, my gosh. You are fresh off your VBAC, girl. Colleen: Yeah.Julie: Ride that high as long as you can, man. I still feel really awesome. My first VBAC baby is 9.5 now. 9.5 years old. Okay, so this might sound really weird, but I wish that it wasn't something that we had to feel so victorious about. Does that make sense? I wish it was just way more common and just a normal thing, but it's not. Lots of people have to overcome lots of challenges in order to get the birth experience that they want, and that is sad. As empowering and incredible as it is when it happens, it's also kind of sad that, you know what? I don't know. Does that make sense? Colleen: It makes complete sense. I was going back and trying to research things on VBAC statistics and this, that, and the next thing and listening to other podcasts.Julie: You have to work so hard. It's sad that we have to work so hard.Colleen: A lot of it came down to providers being scared of the consequences that they would face if anything went wrong. I'm like, well, that's not fair because you're not even giving somebody a chance. Everything that I read was if the quote-unquote problem is on the baby's end, then mom has no reason to think that she can't have a VBAC, but so many providers don't see it the same way.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I have 500 things that I want to talk about right now. First of all, I feel like this is the gospel according to Julie. This is not, I don't think, anything that I could find any evidence for or not. But I think sometimes when we, we as in the medical system. We have a parent who has gestational diabetes and change their diet drastically and so completely and eliminate carbs and sugars and all of these things. I feel like when that happens more often, I see babies with significantly smaller birth weights than if we were to make more subtle adjustments to their diets.Colleen: Yeah. I had a couple of gestational diabetes groups on Facebook. So many of the women who would post, after their baby was born, they had either very small babies because they changed their diet so drastically, or their babies were larger because of the insulin, so I agree with the gospel according to Julie.Julie: Yeah, thank you. So that's two of us. I'm pretty sure Meagan would agree as well. So three out of however many. Okay. Let's just leave that right there, first of all.Second of all, just saying that ultrasound measurements are grossly inaccurate. It's not uncommon for them to be. My sister-in-law, right now, is going to get induced on Monday as a first-time mom, completely ignorant to a lot of the birth process and everything and doesn't have a desire to-- she's completely the opposite of me. They're inducing her at 38 weeks because she has gestational diabetes, and they expect her baby's going to be big, and they don't want shoulder dystocia, etc. etc. etc. We know the whole thing, right? I was looking up evidence on shoulder dystocia, and it's really interesting because there are some studies that say first of all, Evidence Based Birth has a really great article on the evidence for induction for C-section or big baby. That will be linked in the show notes. Now it's really interesting because I was looking up rates for shoulder dystocia for big babies versus regular-sized babies. There are some studies that show that smaller babies have up to a 2% chance for shoulder dystocia, and larger babies have anywhere from a 7 to 15% chance of having difficulties with birthing their shoulders. There are other studies that show half of shoulder dystopias occur in babies that are smaller than 8 pounds, and 13 ounces. I feel like there's a little bit of disconnect out there in the research. However, like Colleen, permanent nerve damage occurs with shoulder dystocia in 1 out of every 555 babies, Permanent nerve damage will occur due to stuck shoulders in 1 out of every 555 babies who weigh between 8 pounds, 13 ounces, and 9 pounds, 15 ounces. I'm curious, Colleen, how big were you? Do you know what your birth weight was?Colleen: Yeah, I was 9 pounds 2 ounces.Julie: Okay, so you were barely a big baby.Colleen: Yeah, I was born three weeks early.Julie: Oh my goodness, girl. Yes. Okay, so yes, that was definitely large for gestational age too. But that's okay. Honestly, that means 1 out of every 555 babies will have permanent nerve damage from shoulder dystocia. When we get babies that are 10 pounds or bigger, it's actually 1 out of every 175 babies. I don't want to discount when that happens, but I mean, 554 out of 555 babies don't have that permanent nerve injury, too. I think it's really important that when we look at risks, that we have a really accurate representation of what those risks are in order to make an informed decision. So just like with uterine rupture, we don't want to discount when it happens because it does happen, and it's something that we need to look at. But what are the benefits compared to the risks? Why? What are the benefits of induction compared to the benefits of potentially avoiding a shoulder dystocia? The Evidence Based Birth article is really amazing. I don't want to go on and on for hours about this, although I definitely could, but most of the time, when shoulder dystocias happen, they're resolved without incident. I mean, it can be kind of hard and kind of frustrating and difficult to get the baby out and maybe a little traumatic, but yeah, most of the time everything works out well. Colleen, I'm glad that your birth injury is--I mean, I just feel so proud of your mom for putting into therapy and stuff like that earlier on because it could have had the potential to be a lot worse if she didn't do that. So kudos to your mom. I'm super excited for you. When you were talking-- not excited for you. That is the wrong word to say. I'm grateful that you had access to that care to help you. When you were telling me about your injury, it reminds me of my oldest who has cerebral palsy. It's really, really mild. Most people don't know. He has decreased motor function in his right arm and his right foot. He walks on his toe. He can't really use his right hand too well and his ambidexterity is a little awkward for him. But you said something that really stuck with me. That's just your normal. That's just what you know. I feel like that with my son too. While his disability is limiting in certain ways, he's also found lots of very healthy ways to adapt and manage and live a very full and happy life despite it. I might be putting words in your mouth, but it kind of sounded like you had said similar to that.Colleen: Oh, absolutely. It's just what I know. I don't know anything different.Julie: It's just let you know and yes. It's really fun. It's really not fun. Oh my gosh. Words are hard today. Please edit me out of all of these words. Gosh, my goodness. So not to discount any of that because it does happen, but we also want to make sure that we have accurate representation of the risks. Also, I want to touch on Colleen leaning into your intuition and following that and letting that guide you because I think that's really important as well. Sometimes our intuition is telling us things that don't make sense, and sometimes it's telling us things that makes absolute perfect sense and align right with our goals and our vision. I encourage everyone to lean into that intuition no matter what it's telling you because those mama instincts are real. They are very real. I feel like they deserve more credit than sometimes we give them. So, yeah. I don't know. Colleen, tell me. I know that you had a really awesome doula helping you. Besides hiring a doula and doing your best to find the best support team and advocating for yourself, what other advice would you give people who are preparing for a VBAC?Colleen: I think, like you said at the beginning of the podcast, looking at your options. I didn't know what my options were with my son, and then this time around, I had a better idea of what the options were. And then listening to positive VBAC stories. So, like, I remember maybe six weeks before I had my daughter, just trying to find anything. I searched VBAC on Apple podcasts, and this was the first thing that came up. I listened to two episodes a day until I ended up giving birth.Having all of that positive information was really helpful, and then having my husband so be on board with everything and my doula really talking me off those ledges of absolute devastation after my appointments to the next morning having that confidence again. So those are the things. Julie: I love that too. Yeah.Believe in yourself. Not everyone that tries to VBAC is going to have a VBAC. That's just the unfortunate reality of what it's like. But I think believing in yourself to not only have your best birth experience and having that belief in order to have a VBAC, but also having belief that if your birth doesn't end up in a VBAC that you can navigate those circumstances in order to still have a powerful and satisfying birth experience. Trust yourself. I think that's really, really important.Coleen: Yeah, I agree with that.Julie: Cool. All right, Colleen. Well, thank you so much for spending time here with me today. I loved hearing your stories. I love hearing the little baby noises in the background. Those always make my heart happy. And yeah, we will catch you on the flip side.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lily's VBAC birth story episode is finally here!!! You know and love her just like we do. She not only manages the social media content here at The VBAC Link but also spends so much time connecting with you personally. She has the biggest heart for VBAC and champions all types of empowered birth.Lily walks us through her experiences with ectopic pregnancy, loss, her traumatic Cesarean, and how she persisted through a 66-hour long labor without an epidural to achieve her hospital water birth VBAC.If you followed her pregnancy journey, you saw that Lily was incredibly proactive during her pregnancy. She built the strongest team of birth and body workers. She was specific in her desires, yet remained open-minded. This served her so well in labor and made all the difference during her birth!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. You guys, today is a very exciting day. We have recently had two of our VBAC Link team members have their babies. Paige was one with the first Maternal Assisted Cesarean in Korea, and today is the second with Lily. Oh my gosh. If you guys have been on our social media, you have seen our cute Lily. She is just so amazing. She's so fun. She's in the DMs on Instagram literally every day chatting with you. I just absolutely adore her. She's so incredible. Lily is a born and raised Colorado-- I don't even know how to actually say this. Lily is a born and raised Coloradoan.I think that is how you say it.She's from Colorado, living in northern Colorado with her husband, son, and daughter. She is a kinesiologist who works in community health and a dual-certified fitness instructor passionate about movement and wellness. After an unexpected Cesarean two and a half years ago, Lily found The VBAC Link and began planning her VBAC and is excited to share her story today. I cannot wait for you to hear it. This was actually the first time that I got to hear it in its entirety. It's just amazing, and I'm excited for you to hear it. Like I mentioned, Lily is also our social media assistant at The VBAC Link and is truly honored to empower and hold space for all the Women of Strength in our community. You guys, she is absolutely amazing. We love her so, so, so, so much. We do have a review that we're going to share, and then we are going to turn the time over to our sweet Lily to share her stories. This review is by Savannah, and it says, "Started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast around 16 weeks pregnant and continued throughout my pregnancy. It was so good and encouraging for me as a mama who was preparing for a VBAC. It helped me gain confidence, and helped me know what to look for and watch out for in my providers. Hearing other stories was so encouraging and helped me gain so much knowledge. I had my hospital VBAC unmedicated with an 8-pound, 15-ounce baby and I know the knowledge I gained from this podcast played a huge role in being able to advocate for myself and get a better birth outcome." Congratulations, Savannah. We're going to talk a little bit about this today as well with Lily on the podcast how sometimes the thought of going to the hospital is scary because of stories you've heard or things you've heard. But VBAC can happen in the hospital, and it can be beautiful, and it is beautiful. I think it always dials back to me to finding the best provider for you, finding the best location that feels right for you, building your team, and doing what is best for you in the end. So I really am so excited one minute after the intro to turn the time over to Lily. Okay, Ms. Lily, I really am so excited because I was even texting you the day you were in labor. I don't really know all the details, but I've seen your incredible pictures. Oh my goodness, your pictures are so incredible, and I've heard a little bit from you so I really can't wait. So let's talk. Let's talk about these births.Lily: Okay. Yeah. So every Cesarean story is what starts us off, so I will go with that. But I'm going to try to be fast because I feel like my birth was really long. I have a lot more to say about my VBAC, but I always try to really honor our story in that before we had our beautiful, amazing rainbow baby boy, we also experienced a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy prior to having our son. I lost my right fallopian tube. I always like to be the encourager that you can get pregnant naturally with one fallopian tube. It turns out fallopian tubes are not fixed body parts, so when we got pregnant with our son, I ovulated from the side I didn't have a fallopian tube on, and my other tube was able to come over and grab the egg and sense the ovulation which feels so miraculous.Meagan: So incredible, so incredible. I love that message that you're dropping for our community because I think if someone was in that situation as you know, it could feel very defeating and uncertain.Lily: Yeah, it feels really scary. I remember thinking, "I'm at less than 50% fertility if I've lost one tube," but that's not true. Statistically, it's really pretty equal to people with both fallopian tubes, which is kind of neat.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: After that, I started acupuncture. My sweet friend, Montana, we had been friends for years and she's always been like, "You should come see me." She specializes in women's health and fertility and loss and all the things. I started acupuncture then, and I say that now cause it has continued. I always say I'll never not be a patient of hers ever again because she's the best. I started to do that, and then we got pregnant. we found out we were pregnant on the last day of week of prayer at our church, which was really incredible and just felt like such a tangible miracle. We chose to go with a birth center for our care. We did that because I had a lot of hospital trauma. I just didn't think that a hospital was a safe place for me to have my baby. I'm a big believer that we should birth wherever feels the safest. We went for birth center care and had a great experience at our birth center.We loved our midwives and were really excited for birth. I think I hear so many times as women tell their VBAC stories that often we feel underprepared going into our first birth, and it leads to a cascade. I think I was the birthiest nerd of all. I felt like I was really prepared going into birth. I was excited for it. I had a lot of birth education. I had been a birth podcast listener forever and ever. I just felt really empowered in birth and all the things I was doing, chiropractic care and acupuncture and all the stuff. We did get to 41 weeks, and at my 41-week appointment, my midwives gave me a 3-page-long induction protocol because in our state, we have to transfer at 42 weeks. So it was their, "This is the last-ditch effort when you are 41--", and I can't remember how many days, "we want you to do this big thing." It was a daily schedule. "You're going to wake up and you're going to go for a drive on a bumpy road, and you're going to eat this, and you're going to do this." It was really overwhelming. Meagan: Yeah.Lily: Well, the night before we were supposed to do that protocol, the doula who was on-call at the center was texting me and was like, "Hey, how are you feeling?" I was like, "I don't know. I feel really nervous to do this big long thing." She suggested that I journal out all of my fears about birth and see if that did anything. I journaled all my fears, and I burned it in our kitchen sink. As I walked up the stairs, I had my first contraction. I'm also a huge believer that our emotions play such a huge role in our labors. So I was really stoked that my labor started and all the things. That's the same doula that we had for our next birth too, which is really cool. So yeah, I labored all of that night. It was Friday that I went into labor, that evening. Saturday, I labored. My midwives came and checked in eventually. My doula did come over, did some stuff with me, hung out and helped me labor, did some homeopathy, some emotional release work, and all the good stuff. But my labor was really, really long.So by Sunday, my midwives were like, "Hey, you are super exhausted. We want you to take a Benadryl and try to take a nap." I am a girly who does not take a lot of medicine. So this Benadryl knocked me on my booty. I had six really awful contractions trying to take a nap. After I got back up from the nap, I got back on the toilet which is where I was loving to labor. I stood up because I was like, "Okay, I think maybe things are starting. I'm finally getting a pattern. Maybe I can finally go to the birth center." I stood up, and I checked the pad I was wearing. There was a copious amount of meconium. Not water, but meconium which is scary, you know? I knew right then that I was going to have to transferred. It was thick. It was poop.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Lily: There was no water stained. It was just meconium. And so I called my midwife, and in her sweet midwife voice, I said, "Do I have to transfer?" And she goes, "It's definitely a conversation we have to have." I was like, "Okay. So, yes." She explained that because of the way the meconium came out, she now thought my son was breech because his butt was right up against my cervix, and it just came right out. Soo she came over. Actually, she wasn't even on call. She happened to live in our neighborhood. She came over and checked me and all the things, and she's like, "Yep, this feels really different than a few hours ago. He's definitely breech. We do have to transfer." And so as we're transferring, in my mind, I know that we're probably going to have a Cesarean. My midwives were really great in that they called ahead and they were like, "Hey, we called ahead. No one's willing to do a vaginal breech delivery, or at least they're not trained in it." But my midwives were also really encouraging that, "If this is something you want to do, you have a right to deny a surgery. You have that right. We will be here in support of that." They don't have hospital privileges. They were out-of-hospital midwives, so they had to transfer me. They could go with me and essentially be that emotional support, but we were still kind of in COVID times, so I had to also choose who I wanted to be in there with me. It was 2022. I just felt so defeated. I was so mad that I wasn't going to get the birth that I wanted. I started screaming through contractions. I can confirm that does make it worse. I was just pissed. And so I opted for a Cesarean. It was really tough. I remember as we were leaving my house, asking my midwives, "I can have a VBAC at the birth center, right? Like, you can do VBACs?" They were like, "Yep, but let's get this baby out first." So I transferred. I had my Cesarean. I think it went as smoothly as it could go. I remember there was this a sweet tech who-- I was just in a lot of pain, and she gave me the biggest hug as they put my spinal in and was stroking my back saying, "This is the last one. This is the last one. You can do this." And it was like, "Okay." There was some tenderness there. But post that was a lot of grief, and I think we've all experienced that and a lot of hard. I never saw the surgeon who did my surgery ever again. None of my follow-ups were with her. It was just some random OB. I was so thankful that I had been at the birth center because I got all of their postpartum care, so I had a couple of home visits and a lot of really tender care from my midwives, which was exactly what I needed. And then I found The VBAC Link. I remember finding it on a walk because I had listened to birth podcasts for years, like I said, and suddenly it was grievous to listen to this thing that I loved hurt my feelings to listen to. It was like, "Oh gosh, I don't want to listen to the first-time mom who had an amazing waterbirth, and it was pain-free." It just was grief. Meagan: Right.Lily: So when I found The VBAC Link, I was like, "This is exactly what I needed. This is stories of women that give me hope and not just that trigger jealousy," which I think is a very real and valid emotion.Meagan: Very, very real. Very real and valid.Lily: It's okay to feel that way, but I remember going for all of my postpartum walks and listening to The VBAC Link and crying through every episode and all of the things. And then, just in that postpartum time, I got back into fitness. I have a background in kinesiology and teach a lot of fitness classes. So I got back to the community and finding that, and then I also got to work here which is so fun a year ago in November which is so cool. I think it's really a cute thing that my year anniversary was in November, and that's when I had her, so how cool that I spent a year empowering other women and also getting to plan my own which was really fun. So if you've ever DM'd us on Instagram, you're probably talking to me.Meagan: Yep, yep. She's in there every day a lot of the day because we get a lot of messages. We really do.Lily: And we want to answer all of them. I want you to feel seen and known and all the things. So if you're getting an answer, you're not getting a robot.Meagan: Yeah, you're absolutely not.Lily: You're getting me or Meagan or Olga or Ashley. You're getting one of us which is really neat.Meagan: Yep. Yeah.Lily: Okay. So then we got pregnant again, eventually. So we had planned to start trying when our son was two. We got pregnant a couple months before his second birthday. And again, it was such a redemptive moment of going from having a really hard trying to conceive to me, a girly with one fallopian tube getting pregnant on accident. Are you kidding me? It's crazy. But it was so great. It was really scary at first. We did have some early pregnancy bleeding. We thought we were having another miscarriage. And at the same time, my dad had his appendix rupture, so he was in the hospital septic while I'm early pregnant bleeding. It was just a hellstorm at first and felt really scary. But I knew that I was going for my VBAC, and that was really grounding. I won't share a ton of this journey. My midwife, Paige, and I were on the podcast earlier in 2024, so if you want to listen to that podcast about finding care, but I'll just quickly cover essentially the birth center that I was supposed to be at that I always dreamed would be my redemptive birth again was the same midwives. Oh, Matilda is grabbing my ears.Meagan: Also, the episode is 342 if you want to go back and listen.Lily: Yes. For midwife stuff.Meagan: Yes.Lily: So essentially, my midwives were amazing and I love them, but the birth center just wasn't in our financial capability. They don't take insurance. This time around, it was just not something that we were able to do. I started my care at the birth center and was really grateful to be there because they really knew my story, so they held me through the worry about miscarriage. And then we ended up having to navigate transferring care, so I interviewed another birth center that was in-network with our insurance that was about an hour away. I interviewed my midwife, Paige, and her practice partner, Jess. I told my husband when we went in to interview them, I was so terrified to like these hospital midwives and that I would have a hospital birth. And I did. I fell in love with them. I think that's so important. One thing I get really frustrated with, I think, especially in the more crunchy birth community is that we are often told that hospital birth can't be beautiful and that you can't have a physiological birth in a hospital.Meagan: Yep.Lily: I'm here to tell you that that's wrong. We have to stop telling women that the place that they feel safest is less than in any way. If a hospital is where you end up, then that is incredible and amazing and that's where you should birth if that's what feels right for you and your baby.Meagan: Yeah. It's the same thing with like epidural versus non-epidural. It doesn't matter. You're not any less powerful or strong or amazing if you birth without an epidural versus an epidural or out of the hospital versus the hospital or a planned Cesarean versus not going for a VBAC or if it goes to a Cesarean.We have to start having more love for one another in our community. Even though it might be something really great for one person, and they believe that, and that's okay that they believe that, that doesn't mean it's right for that next person.Meagan: Totally, totally.Lily: Yeah. So we navigated what hospital care was going to look like. At the time, our hospital was under construction, so they were "letting"-- I put that in quotes-- letting you labor in the tub, but you couldn't deliver in the tub at the time. The tubs were home birth tubs that they were blowing up in the rooms and all these things. But by the end of my pregnancy, the low-intervention rooms were open, and they were supporting waterbirths which I think is so neat to see from a hospital. So yeah, we were really excited. This time, I did more acupuncture. I continued to see my amazing acupuncturist. She's amazing. Montana Glenn if you ever need her in northern Colorado. I did switch chiropractors. Last time, I went to just the chiropractor that I'd always gone to. She wasn't Webster-certified. This time, I did go see a Webster-certified chiropractor. Laura is amazing. That really changed a lot of my pelvic pain and things like that.I was way more active in this pregnancy. With my son, I was working at a Barre studio, and the fitness studio closed about halfway through my pregnancy. I kind of just petered off the train of staying active. But with my daughter, we were able to, I say we because she was there. I worked out until the day before I was in labor. I teach spin, strength, and yoga. It's a combo. It's called Spenga. I was there all the time. I did stop on the spin bike at 34 weeks pregnant because I learned that that's not great for baby positioning, and it can shorten some of those ligaments. I stopped doing the spin bike at that point to be really cautious of position. Speaking of that, I had a standard kind of pregnancy. I would talk with my midwife forever and ever. I came in with questions about my birth probably on day one. She was like, "Girl, you're 16 weeks pregnant. Chill, no." But I had questions, and I would come in every time. I did feel like a first-time mom in that sense because the last time, I had a lot of expectations of I knew what the birth center was going to look like, and I had no idea what a hospital labor was going to look like. How many nurses are going to be in my room? Who's going to be up in my space? What does this look like? How do I do intermittent monitoring and all the things? Paige was great about, my midwife, saying, "Hey, this is what the hospital protocol is. Hospital protocol is not a law. You get to do what you want to do, and we support you in that." She was awesome. At 32 weeks, though, Matilda was breech which was really scary as a mama who had a surprise breech baby. I did all the things. If you want to know all of those things, we have an Instagram Live that is saved on our page of literally the kibosh of things that I did for flipping her. We did flip her. I also saw a bodyworker in town and a doula who's amazing. Her name is Heather Stanley, and she's the breech lady here in northern Colorado. I did some bodywork and stuff with her and worked through emotional stuff and birth stuff. It was, I think, really what I needed. Heather said that in our session, and I kind of rolled my eyes. She's like, "I think sometimes babies go breech because we've got some stuff to process." And I think that I did. I thought I processed. I went to therapy after my Cesarean. I did all the things, but I still had some stuff. I think she was teaching me, like, "Hey, let's work through this now."Meagan: Yeah, I mean, I had the same thing with Webster. He kept flipping breech. I had never had a breech baby before, but I was like, "If I have to have a C-section because you're breech, I've done all the things." I was really frustrated. We'd get him to flip, and then he'd go back. My midwife was like, "We need to stop." And I believe that it was the same thing. I needed to work through some things. He needed to be in those positions during that time for whatever reason. We had to gain more trust in our bodies and our abilities and processing. Right?Lily: Yeah, totally. So yeah, so then she flipped, and it was great. And then I just felt so seen by Paige in all of it, because she knew like, "Hey, when you get to the hospital, we'll check with an ultrasound and double-check that she's still head down because I know that's anxiety-inducing for you." I just felt so empowered with all of our decision-making. It felt like a big partnership. One thing that I struggled with with my son was I was at home laboring for 44 hours. I never got to go to the birth center. What I loved is this time, it was my call when I got to go to the hospital. It was my decision, all of it. Paige was so great about saying, "Hey, this is your labor, and we're here to make this happen." I just think she's such a unique human. I don't think care always looks like this in a hospital for sure, but it can. What if we advocated for what we deserve, you know?Meagan: Just talking to her, I love her. I love her so much, and I one day hope to meet her in person.Lily: She's the greatest human being. I tell her all the time, I'm like, "You're changing the world, and so many women need you." Actually, their practice was at one point so full of VBAC patients that they've had to unfortunately turn a couple of people away because their practice is getting full which is really amazing, though.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: And we need that.Meagan: It's a good thing. Yeah.Lily: Yeah. So super cool. All right, I think we've got labor coming. Here we go. I never felt pressure of when am I going to go into labor or any of that. Paige was super great about, like, "Hey, if you're dilated before labor, that's great. If not, whatever. Most people dilate while they're in labor," and it was just super helpful. I knew that there was no worry about when I would go into labor. There was no worry about just any of that stuff. So it was really nice to just be at peace. That's one of the reasons that I actually loved having a hospital provider because I had a lot of anxiety about transferring from a birth center again. Actually, as I tell my story, I think I would have been a transfer again. I remember them saying that in my initial consult appointment. Jess, who practices with Paige, said, "You know, what's beautiful about hospital care is that we can induce you if you need to be induced, and we have the hospital privileges, and you can have the interventions if you need them." And I did. Spoiler alert, and it was great. I got to 40 and 1. I started contractions around 11:00 PM on Tuesday night. I was already felt like it was such a blessing because I finally had contractions that were normal. I didn't have contractions like that with my son. They started out fast and furious and they were seven minutes apart or less my whole 44 hours. With this, I felt the wave of a contraction for the first time. And I remember texting my doula like, "This is already so redemptive just that I can like breathe through a contraction. This is nuts. This is so cool." There were a couple that I had to get on all fours in my bed and sway back and forth and eventually, my husband like leaned over and he was like, "You need to go to sleep. What are you doing?" I was like, "I'm having contractions." And he's like, "Oh." So it was fun. I texted my doula and just said, "Hey, I think I'm in labor," which was weird for me to say. And again, what's so great is Jessie, my doula, had been with us in our first birth and she's also a VBAC mom. It was just like God had His hands on exactly what we needed and the people that we needed even from our first birth to carry into our second. So on Wednesday, Jesse also lives in our neighborhood now, so that's fun. She came over, and we went for a walk. We did some homeopathy, and she gave me a great foot massage, and then she said, "Okay, hey. Let's try to pick things up a little bit. I want you to take a nap with your knees open." She's like, "We don't have a peanut ball," so I grabbed the triangle pillow from my kid's nugget couch. It works really well by the way. I napped with that between my legs and was able to get things to pick up a little bit. My contractions did get pretty intense, but they were still spread out. She went home for a little bit, and then I took a nap and labored. I went downstairs. We live multi-generationally, so my parents live in our basement in a basement apartment. My niece also lives with us. They have custody of her. My parents have a way cooler shower than I do because they got to customize their basement. I went down and took a shower in their shower which has three shower heads and all the stuff. I was like, "This is like a being at a birth center." So I hung out in their shower. I took a two-hour shower. My mom's like, "Our water bill is going to be insane."Meagan: How did you have hot water long enough?Lily: We have that-- I don't know what it's called.Meagan: Reverse osmosis thing?Lily: I don't know.Meagan: I don't even know. That's not the water heater. Lily: I don't know what we have. I don't know what it's called. Anyway, we did have hot water. Meagan: That's amazing, though. Lily: I was just in there chilling and music on and lights off. When I could get into the mental space of labor, my contractions would come way closer together, and things would intensify. But if I did the advice of living life, it was like they just stayed really far apart. So I was like, "I know that some of this is prodromal labor a little bit because I'm not getting into consistency unless I'm forcing myself to be there."So amongst all of this, my husband is not feeling well. I'm looking at him like, "You seem sick." My husband never gets sick. And he's like, "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." And I was like, "No, I think that you should go get tested for something." Something in my gut was like, "You need to go in." So he went and got swabbed for the flu and all the things, and he had strep. And so I was like, "See? Good thing that we got you tested." So he started antibiotics right away. And then that night, my sweet doula came and spent the night because Jared was just not up for being a labor support and yay for having a doula because I needed someone to be there physically with me, and I needed that support, but he couldn't be there in that moment.Meagan: Wow, what an incredible doula. I love hearing that. Yeah.Lily: So she came and spent the night, and we did some like side-lying releases, which from my first labor, I knew I was going to hate it. It's just the position that, to me, is just the absolute worst when I'm in labor. It's awful. My doula was like, "Hey, so we should do some of that." And I was like, "No, we're not. I don't want to." She was like, "I think we should then."So we did some of that, and then eventually, she drifted off to sleep. My contractions again, were still staying spread out. They would get close together and then they'd fizzle. But they were intense, and that's what's hard is you think prodromal labor, and at least in my brain, it's like, "Oh, contractions are mild and really far apart," but that's just not how they were for me. They were really intense. Meagan: They can be. Eventually, I went upstairs and took a bath because I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to force them to shut down then." I need some rest. So I went and took a bath upstairs, and got them to slow down enough that I could sleep for the rest of the night.Meagan: Good.Lily: That was Wednesday, and like I said, my labor was long. On Thursday, we woke up. My doula was here with me. We made breakfast, and she forced me to eat protein. Yay, doulas. I had already a scheduled appointment that day for my 41-week or whatever it was. 40 weeks, I guess. We went into the clinic and my contractions were, I mean, maybe 30 minutes apart at this point. I remember we drove all the way. My clinic is 20 minutes for my house. We drove all the way there, and I didn't have a contraction in the car. I was like, "Okay." So we went. I was 4 centimeters dilated and 90% effaced. I did ask for the membrane sweep, but I asked for the cervical check. Not one time ever did I get a check that was like, "Hey, we should check you now." It was like, "Hey, I want to be checked now."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: It was so empowering. So 4 centimeters. She was like, "You know what? You're doing it. Yes, prodromal labor, sure, but also, your body's making progress. You're doing something."Meagan: But also not prodromal. It was a prodromal pattern and acting that way, but progressing. So, it was on the cusp.Lily: Yeah. It was weird but encouraging to hear that, okay. I've done a day and a half work. Yeah. But at this point, I'm like, ticking in my brain, like, "Okay, how long has this been?" Because my first labor was 44 hours, and I was 10 centimeters when we transferred to the hospital. I had told myself my whole pregnancy, "I can do anything as long as it's less than 44 hours." It was not. It was not. Spoiler alert. So we went home, and then my sweet chiropractor actually lives in our neighborhood. I texted her and was like, "Hey, I don't know if this is a positional thing. She feels really low and engaged, but can you come adjust me?" So she came and brought her table to my house and adjusted me. She did this thing called adductor stripping.Meagan: Oh.Lily: And so I had done an actual membrane sweep with my midwife, and then my chiropractor took her knuckles and went on my inner thighs and pushed all down. It hurt so bad.Meagan: I'm doing it to myself barely, and I'm like, oh.Lily: It was awful. But she was like, "This is the big hip-opener thing." So we did that. She even taught my doula how to do it. I looked at my doula and I said, "You're not doing that to me. So glad you learned you can do it to another client, not me." My doula went home again. I got back in the shower and was moving around. And at 4:00, I decided like, "Okay, I'm exhausted. I am ready for a change." I am the type of person who likes to go somewhere and do something. It's part of why I didn't ever feel like a home birth was the right option for me because I know that I get stuck in a space. I like the idea of going somewhere to have my baby. It felt like a good change. So I was ready, but I wasn't having contractions that were there. And I was like, "I also don't want to go to the hospital and be stuck there for a million years." So I decided to go upstairs and put myself into labor. I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing this." I turned off all the lights, and started to labor, and my mom came up and gave me a back massage. It was also cool to see her shift because in my first labor, she was super anxious. And then in this labor, she was really trusting of my process and was more just like, "Hey, what do you need?" So she gave me a really big back massage, and I listened to music, and I finally got my contractions to six minutes apart. I texted my midwife and I said, "If these stay this way for an hour, I want to come because I am exhausted. I'm ready for a change. I need this." And she's like, "Great, awesome. Let me know. Keep me posted." So I did have some bloody show, and I thought maybe my water broke. It had been an hour, and I was like, "Hey, we're going." My mom had just made dinner, so I'm scarfing meatloaf on my way out the door. Great last meal.Meagan: I love it.Lily: And then we head to the hospital. I got to the hospital, and I was 4.5, maybe a 5. So again, earlier that day, I had been a 4. So I had made a little bit of progress, but not a ton. But Paige was great. She's like, "Great, you're here." What I love about their practice is their direct admittance, so you don't have to go through triage and have some sort of evaluation to decide if you're supposed to be there or not. She was the one who made that call, and we made it in partnership with each other. I was like, "I feel like I need to be here." She's like, "Great, you're here."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: And so I chose no IV and to do intermittent monitoring which will come up in my story in a little bit, but that's kind of where I was. We started to fill up the tub, and I was laboring in the tub, and then I started to get nauseous and throwing up and all the things. In my head, I'm like, "I'm in transition. This is very transitiony." I'm watching as the baby nurse comes into my room and starts to set up the bassinet. I'm starting in my head to tell myself, "I'm so close. I'm in transition. This is happening." And as I talked to my doula afterward, she was like, "Yeah, we all thought you were in transition, too, dude. You were in it." I started to get frustrated and say, "I want to push." Not that I felt pushy, but I was just like, "I want, again, a change. I want to have a baby." And so I asked for another check, and I was 6.5 centimeters. I cursed so much, and I was like, "I just want to have my effing baby." I screamed that so loud. My poor, sweet doula and midwife. They dealt with my sass, and it's like my body knew, "Okay, we're defeated now." Everything shut down. My contractions spread apart to 20 minutes apart again. They had been 5 minutes. My mental space was not ready, and my body was like, "Okay, we're going to rest." Meagan: Yeah. Lily: And so I get out of the tub and dry off, and we decide that I'll do a little bit of pumping. My midwife put some clary sage all over my belly, and she does try. I asked to rupture my membranes because we thought maybe they had not ruptured when I thought they did. She was like, "They're definitely intact." She goes, "Nice protein intake girly because these are hard, and I can't rupture them." She's like, "You have a really strong bag of water." And I said, "Thanks, Needed, for all of the amazing collagen that I took."Meagan: I was going to say, collagen protein right there.Lily: I'm terrible at protein intake, so really the collagen from Needed was one of the strongest ways I got protein in during my pregnancy. So pat on my back for my protein intake and things to need.Meagan: Very, very good job. Very impressive. Well, because really, a strong bag of water, it is hard to get that protein and that good calcium in. It really is. To the point where she can't even break it, that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Good job. Lily: Yeah. So then at this point, it's later in the evening, like 9:00 or 10:00. And so I started to just be exhausted. I started falling asleep between contractions. My doula is like, "We're going to wind down. Let's turn the music just to instrumental. I'm going to go take a nap." Our birth photographer is napping on the floor. Paige goes and takes a nap, and they tell my husband to curl up next to me.That was such a sweet moment of disc connection that I needed of, "This is my person and we're here. We're doing this together." We snuggled up on the bed and got through contractions together all night long. I did at one point ask to try the nitrous oxide because, in my head, that was the only pain relief that I could think of that was available to me in this low intervention room because the way that the hospital works is if you're not going to have a waterbirth, if you decide to get an epidural, they will transfer you out of this room because there are two of them, and at that point, you can't use the tub. So I was like, "Okay, I think nitrous might be my only option." So I tried that. It sucked.Meagan: You didn't like it.Lily: She was like, "You know, it's really not helpful for people that are coping with contractions well." And she said the same thing when I started asking about an epidural later on. She was like, "You're coping well, and you're relaxing." These types of things can be really helpful for people that are in the fetal position in between their contractions, but you're not, so it's probably not actually going to help because you're already relaxed. All it did was make me feel a little dizzy,  and then I was like, "Well, this is silly." I got in the shower again there. It was not as good as my parents' shower, so I did get right out of the shower. It was very cold. And so the next morning, now it's Friday. So reminder, labor started on Tuesday. Meagan: Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Now we're here. Lily: Thursday morning. And so Paige comes in, and we had a really long talk about options. At this point, I am mad, and I'm just feeling like I can't do it. I keep having contractions and saying, "I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore." In my head, I'm like, "Well, at least I'm going to get a VBAC. Hopefully, I can get an epidural," and then rest and those stories. I'm trying to be really open-handed because I think that's what you have to be in birth is really surrender to the process. Paige comes up with this idea to do some therapeutic rest to which I had never heard of before. I think I was texting you during this and I was like, "What is that?" She's like, "We can give you some morphine. You can either stay here at the hospital or you can go home, and hopefully, you'll nap for 4 or 5 hours. Typically, people wake up in active labor." I was like, "Sweet, sounds awesome. Give me that nap." My doula was like, "Why don't we go for a walk, first? Let's remind ourselves that it's daytime. Let's go on a walk. We'll talk about it together, and then we can come up and do our next steps." So we went out for a walk in the parking lot of the hospital. It was cold, and I threw up a couple of times. Yay. I was like, "I think I really need this. I can't continue to do this without any progress." She's like, "Great, I'm excited for you." So we went up, and they put an IV in cause I didn't have an IV. What was great was that the hospital staff was so accommodating. I was really nervous about nurses being like, "Hey, we don't like this," or whatever. Paige was also great about choosing my nurses to be the ones that are going to be more supportive. But they put an IV in. They gave me the morphine, and then they took it out. I didn't just then have an IV.We did that, and then we decided we would break my water and try to get things progressing. She did end up being able to break my water because I could sit still. I was way more relaxed with the morphine. It was supposed to be a 4-hour nap. I woke up 20 minutes later. We had sent my doula off to go run errands thinking that we had hours. I wake up 20 minutes later with really intense contractions that are peeking through the morphine, and they're super close together. I was like, "Well, crap. Let me call my doula back and get her to come back." And so that really picked things up again. It was kind of discouraging because I was expecting to get to rest, and then to have intense contractions again was like, "Oh gosh, okay. Here we go." But we did it. We labored the whole day doing that, but my contractions would never get closer than 5 minutes apart. They would stall out at that space. At 2:30ish, I asked about morphine again because I was like, "Can we do that again? If that was an option, can we try that again?" The nurses were like, "Hey, we actually think maybe you should just do some IV Fentanyl." My older brother is an addict, so I am someone who was super cautious. I had actually said it when I got there that my preference is no opioids. But this felt like, "Okay, maybe it's an option." When Paige came in and we talked a little bit, she was like, "Why don't we do that? And would you be open to doing a low dose of Pitocin?" And I was like, "Absolutely not," because in my brain, Pitocin means epidural. Pitocin is scary and hard. My contractions are already intense. I can't imagine Pitocin. Like, absolutely not. And so Paige said, "Hey, what's cool is you're already in active labor, so Pitocin is not likely going to make your contractions more intense. It will likely bring them closer together.Meagan: It's what you might need.Lily: "You might be able to wait it out, or this might be an option. Let's do the pain medicine so that you feel mentally like you can handle it." I was like, "Okay." So they placed another IV because I didn't have one in, and they gave me Pit. We started at 2 at 3:30, and then we upped it to a 4 at 4:00.Something that I will mention while I have the IV thought in my brain is I had said I was doing intermittent monitoring, and I ended up hating that. I was just irritated by people coming into my space. It felt like it interrupted my labor pattern. They had to reach down into the water if I was in the tub. I was moving, and I felt like I couldn't move or they wouldn't get it. They were just in my space a lot more. So when we started the Pitocin, the hospital policy was continuous monitoring, but they have the wireless monitors that are waterproof. They were like, "Do you feel okay with that?" I said, "Yeah, I think so, actually. I think I'm ready for people to stop touching me," because at one point, I looked at a nurse and I was like, "I understand why this is important and why you're here to check on my baby. Please go away." I hated it, but I also felt like I wanted some sort of monitoring.Meagan: I can see that though.Lily: Yeah, it was just disruptive. It's funny because in my brain, I thought that the continuous monitoring would feel disruptive, but it was great because they just put these two little dots on me. I had a belly band that went over. They were wireless. I could still move all around. It was great. Meagan: That's nice.Lily: Yeah. So at this point, I'm hooked up to Pit on the little IV pole, but I can still go wherever I want. I decided to go labor in the bathroom. This is the part of my labor that gets a little fuzzy. I was really thankful to have had a conversation with my acupuncturist prior to labor because she had a great labor experience, but she was actually a home birth hospital transfer too. She had talked about how I had said, "I don't want to do medication because I want to be really present. There's so much of my son's birth that I don't remember because of the medication." She had told me, "Hey, there is a place sometimes in labor land that your body just naturally goes fuzzy, so don't be taken aback if that's your experience." That was really helpful to know that in this transition time, things feel a little fuzzy, but I'm at peace with that versus my son's birth where it felt invasive to not have those memories.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: So we were laboring in the bathroom, and then I remember at one point yelling for Paige because my doula is in there with me. I was like, "I'm feeling pushy and ring of fiery." She's like, "Okay." We came out of the bathroom. They unhooked me from the Pitocin. They did keep the hep lock in. And again, they were really respectful and asked like, "Hey, since we've already been doing Pit, we've already put two in. Do you mind if we keep the hemlock? And we'll wrap you up. You can do whatever you want." And I was like, "That's fine. It's already there. Let's not bruise up my arm anymore." We came out, and I was laboring on all fours. I had gotten sick of the tub, and I had actually said, "I don't want to be in the tub anymore," at some point during the day, because this thing that was so great, and it is helpful, but every time I get in, I get discouraged because my contractions pick up. But then, it seems like I have to get out. My doula is looking at me, and she's like, "Hey, are you sure you don't want to get in the tub?" This was your goal. This was your goal. Are you sure?" I'm laboring on all fours, and I'm feeling pushy, and she's like, "We can fill up the tub so fast. Do you want us to just fill it up? This was your goal. Are you sure?" I was like, "Okay, yeah. Fill up the tub." The one other thing that I think was funny is that I was wearing a really ugly bra because I had had two black bras that I really wanted to wear, and they had gotten wet over two days of being at the hospital. I looked at her, and I was like, "I'm wearing my ugly bra." She was like, "Change." So my birth photographer ran over and grabbed my black bra that I wanted to have on, and I changed really fast which was really funny, and then hopped in the tub and started to just labor there. My doula and midwife coached me to wait for the fetal ejection reflex. So they were like, "If you can just breathe through these contractions, let's wait and see if your body just starts to push." I was like, "Okay, I guess we'll be here." I was in this really deep, low squat. I have 20 years of dance in my history. I teach Barre. I'm on one tippy toe. Paige told me after, "I have never almost broken a mirror trying to get so low to see what was going on because you were in such a low squat." I did deliver my daughter on my tippy toes. It was like, if I put my heel down, it hurt more. I don't know why, but my tippy toes felt great. Meagan: Interesting. Like pointe in ballet?Lily: Standing on my tippy toes.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goshLily: Yeah. I was in a lunge with one leg up on a tippy toe.Meagan: With bent toes, yep.Lily: I was laboring there, and these contractions felt different, which again, is so cool to have gotten to experience. At this point, Fentanyl wears off after 30 minutes, and so I really feel like it was perfect because I got it for the hard Pitocin part, which actually wasn't bad at all, by the way. It was exactly what Paige said. It just got them closer together. They didn't hurt anymore.Meagan: Increase, yeah.Lily: Yeah, it was awesome. So I highly recommend if you need it at the end to know that it probably won't increase intensity. It just can help. I was fully unmedicated at this point. I would feel the beginning of my contraction. I could breathe through. And then when that fetal ejection reflex hits, man, it is crazy. I had heard someone describe it as the feeling of when you have to throw up and you just can't stop. That is exactly what it feels like. Now I'm pushing.My body just did it by itself, and I didn't have to worry about, "Okay, how do I breathe? How do I do?" There was no counting. I pushed for 52 minutes on my tippy toes. It was so cool. My husband really wanted to catch her, and so he was right there. He'll joke forever that I bruised his hand in labor because I was death-gripping it.I remember feeling the ring of fire and all of the things. And then she just came out and her whole body came out with her head, and it just felt like the biggest relief in the world of, whoo. And then I grabbed her. So Jared's like, "You kind of stole my thunder." I was just so excited, so both of us had our hands on her and got to bring her up to my chest. What we realized is I had a really short chord. The theory is that so much of my labor was probably held back because she didn't have a lot of bungee room to descend. It kind of explained a couple of things. Yeah. She was on my chest in the tub and hanging out. And then we got off and got to the bed, and she was hanging out on my chest. And then as the cord stopped pulsing, she forgot to breathe.Meagan: Oh.Lily: And so they had to cut the cord really quickly, take her off my chest, and take her over to the warmer, and she was fine. They called in the neonatalist and all of the things, and she did eventually just come back to me after I had delivered the placenta, but that was the only scary moment. The theory is that she was still relying on the cord, and then it stopped pulsing, and she was like, "Oh shoot, I need to breathe now. Got it. Okay."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: It was great. I got to see my placenta, and I did have a marginal cord which we knew, which is when your cord is kind of off to the side of your placenta. Again, we knew that my whole pregnancy, and it was never like, "This is going to prevent you from having a VBAC" conversation. But yeah, we got to do the thing and catch a baby, and it was just the coolest thing ever. I can look back and say gosh, yeah. I probably would've been a transfer because of how long my labor was. I'm so thankful that I took the interventions when I needed them and that I had a provider who I trusted was in my corner. Never once did I think, "Oh, she's recommending this so that it goes faster," or "Ohh, she's" bothered or anything. And Paige actually had specialed me in that she wasn't on call that night, but she came in for me which was really special. I don't know. I never expected that I would have a hospital birth. I never expected that I would have Pitocin or pain medication or any of the things and yet feel so at peace with how it played out. It was absolutely beautiful and absolutely physiological in all of the ways that it needed to be.So that was her birth.Oh my goodness. I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy. I can just close my eyes, and I can see your picture. So many feels and such a long journey. Such a long journey for you to keep shifting gears. But going back into your team and all the relationships that you established working up to these days and this moment, you had all of those people come into your labor too, at some point whether it was mentally thinking about something that they had said or they physically came down the street and we're able to serve you and touch you and adjust you and work with you that way. There were so many things along the way that it's like, wow. You should be so proud of yourself for building that team, for getting the education, for having this big different experience, and for trusting your instincts. I do think in the VBAC world, in all birth world, but for the VBAC world, we do sometimes get into this, "Oh, Pitocin can be bad. Epidurals can be bad. Hospitals can be bad. This can be bad," You know, all of these things, and a lot of the times it's based on negative experiences that one has had.Lily: Or stories that you hear.Meagan: Or stories that we hear, yes. Because, I mean, how many stories have we heard about the cascade? Lily: Absolutely.Meagan: We've heard so many. But like you said, these things needed to come into your labor at the points that they did, and they served you well. When you said that you didn't expect to have these experiences, and then find them healing and positive, but I truly believe when we are making the decisions in our birth experience, when we have our birth team that we trust and know are there for us, for us, and in our corner, like Paige is and was, it's very different.Lily: It makes a world of difference.Meagan: It's very different. I mean, I have had clients where I've had providers actually say with their words, "I like to manage my labors. I like to manage my labors." So if we hear that, and then we hear the experience, you guys don't do those things because they led down a negative path. But those are so different, and so we need to remind ourselves as we're listening to stories about Pitocin and epidurals or hospitals, have a soft part in your heart for them because you never know. They may be something that you need or want in your labor. Lily: Totally.Meagan: And if we can have the education about those things and then make the choice that feels right for us in our labor, I mean, here you are saying these things. You're saying these words. "I had these experiences. I experienced Pitocin. I experienced Fentanyl that I didn't know I wanted. I had all these things, and it was great."Lily: It was beautiful. Yeah. And Paige was like, "I've never seen someone dilate to a seven with such an irregular contraction pattern."Meagan: Yes. Yeah.Lily: What I love is that a couple of days before I went into labor, someone had posted this quote. We posted it just recently to our page, but it was from the Matrescense podcast. And it says, "For every birth video that you watch where a woman calmly breathes her baby into the world, make sure you watch one where she begs, pleads for, swears, doubts, and works incredibly hard to meet her baby." I know I cried.Meagan: That just gave me the chills.Lily: "So that if that is your experience, you are not caught off guard by the intensity of birth." I had seen that before I went into labor. Someone posted it in The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. And that is exactly my experience. I screamed and I begged and I roared. Oh my god. There was no quiet breathing during my pushing. My throat was sore the next day so much so that I had them swab me for strep because my husband had strep and I was like, "Did I get strep?" But my throat was just raw from screaming. Not screaming. I would call it roaring because I wasn't high-pitched screaming. It was just the natural, primal thing.Meagan: Guttural roar.Lily: It doesn't make it less than. It was pretty dang cool. So, yeah, so that was all the things. And then in this postpartum experience, it's been so great. Paige is awesome. We've been chatting over the phone, and we had a two-week postpartum visit. I just have the best community. I feel a deep sense of gratitude for the community that I have this time compared to my first and sweet friends who literally right before I came on were like, "Hey, update. How are you? What's going on? How's Tilly? What do you need?" That community has made a huge difference, too. And also, I feel like I could run a marathon because I didn't have a C-section, you know? Holy cow.Meagan: Yeah, your recovery is feeling a lot better. Lily: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I was super active prior to having her, so I think that helps too, you know?Meagan: Yeah.Lily: Just feeling that strength is there and resilient. So, yeah.Meagan: Oh, my gosh. I love you. I'm so happy for you. Seriously, I can't wait to even go back and re-listen to this once it airs. You're just incredible. You're such a ray of sunshine. And truly, it is an honor to have you here on our VBAC Link team and then to be part of this story. You had said before that you haven't really even shared it in this entirety, and so I feel tickled that I get to be one of the first to hear it in its entirety.Lily: Well, thank you, friend. It's an honor to be on the team to get to hold space for everyone else's stories, and I have a squeaky baby, but it is just a joy and a dream to get to be here. So thanks for holding space for all of us who have needed it for years. We love you.Meagan: Oh, I love you back, and thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We have two beautiful CBAC stories for you on the podcast this week! Today's episode is with our friend, Melanie. Her first unexpected Cesarean was in April 2020 at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. It was a very lonely and traumatic experience. Melanie found healing through a birth trauma therapist who helped her process her story and prepare for her second birth with a strong mindset. She took charge of what she could while making peace with what she couldn't control. Unfortunately, many things out of her control did happen, and Melanie faced another Cesarean. All of the healing work paid off though, as Melanie was not traumatized but empowered instead. “Birth stays with you forever. It's not something you ‘move on from'. My first birth was 5 years ago and still barrels me over from time to time. Likewise, the pride I feel in how I advocated for myself during my second birth continually gives me strength.”IMG_6660 (1) - Melanie Doyle.jpgCBAC Support - The VBAC Link CommunityBirth Story MedicineNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: This is actually the week that we are kicking off CBAC week. This week you'll hear two CBAC stories. If you haven't caught on yet, every month we have one week with a couple episodes that is a more specialized episode. So if you're looking for CBAC stories, this is your week, and we have our friend, Melanie, with us today.Hello everybody, it's Meagan. I have my friend, Melanie, with us today. Melanie is a 31-year-old mama of two who had two C-sections. While she struggles with birth trauma from her second birth, an emergency C section, it was still quite healing, she said. I love that you're talking about that. You still struggled with this, but it can still be healing. That was how I was. I wanted a VBAC with my second birth. I really, really, really wanted a VBAC, but it didn't happen. It didn't go as planned, and I had a CBAC. I walked down to that or and I had that second C-section, and it was not what I wanted. There was still trauma involved and lots of feelings, but it was still one of the most healing experiences for me. Weirdly enough, I think it's what he needed. I needed that to help me heal from birth one and birth two.So let's talk a little bit about CBAC, and how it can be as a mom who is wanting a VBAC and it doesn't go as planned. Do you have anything to say on that?Melanie: Sure. Thanks, Meagan. Yeah, I have a lot of things to say on that. Honestly, like you, I wanted the VBAC. I did all of the things to try to get that VBAC. I did the yoga and the teas and the stretching and the chiropractor, and the acupuncture. I did it all, and it didn't happen. It wasn't meant to be.I guess I'll get more into that when I dive into my story. But the CBAC was healing because even though I didn't get the outcome I wanted, I was much more empowered throughout the whole process than I was in that first birth. Through a lot of healing and therapy, I realized that it was that empowerment piece that caused a lot of the trauma from my first birth. It wasn't the C-section itself. That wasn't what instigated all of those feelings and all that hurt, but the way I was made to feel, the way I was treated the doubts and insecurities that were planted in me from that experience that took away my power. Even though I did not get that outcome in my CBAC, it undid a lot of that in a way. I was able to of regain some strength and some autonomy. That's lasted a lot longer. I think in this kind of healing journey, it's still hard sometimes. I still feel like I'm just barreled over by the grief that's wrapped up in both of those births. Even though I have two wonderful, beautiful, healthy children, it doesn't all disappear, but it did help me regain a lot of confidence in my ability to advocate for myself and know what I'm capable of.Meagan: Yeah, I love that you pointed out that, that it was a more empowering experience, and you felt more empowered. I really think that along these journeys, if we can be educated and feel empowered, even if it doesn't go the exact way we want it, and that doesn't even just mean Cesarean and VBAC. I didn't want an epidural, and I got an epidural. I didn't want Pitocin. I got Pitocin.Melanie: Right.Meagan: There are all these different things that can happen that we didn't want. But if we can feel empowered and involved and educated and like we are making the decisions too, and sometimes we can't make them. Sometimes our babies make the decisions, and that's frustrating. That's hard. It's like, well, what could I have done? And we go down these real big spiraled, spaces. But if we can really feel empowered along the way, even though we still might not agree with wanting, the outcome of what we wanted, we can feel empowered and have more healing to come.I wanted to talk more about that too, because we see this happen in the VBAC group where it's like, "Hey guys, thank you so much for being with me along this journey. This group has been amazing. However, I feel like I just have to leave now. I can't be here. I don't feel welcome here because I ended in a Cesarean." One, Women of Strength, I want you to know you are always welcome. You are always welcome. And you are incredible. You do. You were not less than anybody else just because you've had a Cesarean. And two, we actually have a CBAC group. I wanted to point that out to any mamas who have maybe gone for the VBAC route or even decided not to VBAC and wanted to have a Cesarean to go into that CBAC group. It is so, so special. It is led and run mainly by the very own Paige on our VBAC team, who is incredible. I just love that group so much. It creates this just abundant amount of love and support that I think everyone deserves. I don't want you to feel alone because I know. I was one of them. When I had my CBAC I was like, I can't keep seeing these people have these VBACs. I wanted a VBAC. I didn't get a VBAC. There were so many feelings, and I didn't feel welcome there. It wasn't even because they didn't make me feel welcome. I just didn't categorize myself as qualified to be in that group. Yeah, so check out The CBAC Link Community on our Facebook and know that Women of Strength, you are incredible. Whether you have a vaginal birth or not, you are incredible. Melanie: Okay, you guys, we're gonna dive into Melanie's stories, I should say. There are two. There are two stories. So, yeah, let's start with birth number one.Melanie: Goodness. So my first birth, my daughter, who is about 4.5 now, was born in April 2020. So it was right at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic lockdown which really set the scene in the most terrible of ways, as many of listeners probably remember, especially for anyone who had a baby during that period. I mean, it was so challenging those final weeks of my pregnancy. Every doctor's appointment I would go to alone. There was just new bad news being delivered to me about the restrictions that were being put in place. And I was very depressed. It was a heartbreaking time. Those final weeks of my pregnancy, I imagined nesting and being cozy with my husband before we had our first baby, and it was just all kind of ripped away like so much was during that period of time. I became really disassociated from my pregnancy and the joy that was meant to be coming. If someone had approached me on the street and said, "We can get that baby out now," I probably would have said, "Sure." I was really in a place of not caring, I guess, about what happened. I was just so desperate for this baby to be born before the restrictions got worse and before my husband wouldn't be allowed to be at the birth. So I was disassociated, I think, is the only way I can describe it. And then, of course, I went overdue because my kids don't come on time. This will be a recurring thing.Meagan: And with your first baby, that is also very common. Just saying. A lot of people carry over that 40-week mark, right?Meagan: Yeah. They don't tell you that when you get the handbook at the beginning of the pregnancy. I was overdue and was desperate to be induced. I went into this prior to the pandemic and everything, being pretty knowledgeable. I had attended a birth before. I had seen things go wrong and had originally had ideas about what I wanted my birth to be like. But at that point, I really was just desperate. The induction started really well. They placed Cervadil, and it kickstarted things like rapid-fire. It worked super well for me and I thought, "Okay, this might still be okay despite the induction. Despite all this, this might still go fine." Given the COVID-19 restrictions at the time, my husband wasn't allowed in with me until I progressed to a certain degree in my labor.Meagan: Wait, what? Melanie: Yeah. Meagan: Not at all until you progress to a certain point?Melanie: So around 7 centimeters, they were going to give him a call.Meagan: What was the difference of you being there at one point over the other?Melanie: Oh, it was tragic. So he waited in the car in the parking lot.Meagan: Oh, poor thing. Poor you. Melanie: So I was alone. And it was terrible. My contractions just came on so super fast because of the Cervadil. I started dilating really quickly and I thought, "Okay, they're going to get him in here. It's going to be okay." It Wasn't. I started to panic. I had not wanted an epidural, but I was obviously experiencing a lot of pain. They got the Cervadil out because of how I was reacting to it. The nurse asked if I wanted an epidural, and I said, "No, I'm okay for now. I'm coping." I waited a while longer, and I was still alone. They still hadn't called my husband, and I just couldn't do it alone anymore. The nurse talked me into the epidural, and I didn't want it, but I felt a little pressured. Yeah, pressured. That's the word. And again, in looking back on that, I recognize that a lot of the birthing people on the floor at that time were also alone. The nurses did what they could in those situations. But, yeah. I still hold a little bit of resentment, I guess, for those moments where I was my most vulnerable and by myself.Meagan: Yeah, understandably. That makes sense.Melanie: Yeah. So I got the epidural. My husband was allowed in shortly after, and things were still okay. I was still progressing fine. Then labor just stalled, which is the start of many stories. So we waited through the night. At some point, they started Pitocin. I was moving in all these ways. I should say that my doctor is a saint among humans. She's incredible. She was on with me all night. She did everything she could. She wasn't on when I first got admitted, but she came on later in the night, and she was phenomenal. She did everything she could to get things going again. And then her shift ended the next day, and somebody else came in. By that time, I had that pesky little cervical lip. My baby's head was OT. She couldn't make that last. I was 9 centimeters, but she couldn't get that last turn because of the tilt. I was swelling. There was meconium. Her heart rate was doing some wonky things, and off to the OR we went. I was okay with it initially.It felt like, "Okay, this is what happens." It was fine, really. I had a pleasant Cesarean experience. I wasn't nauseous. My husband was able to be there with me for the birth, and I had a lovely surgeon, so it was okay. I felt okay for the most part afterward.But again, because of the COVID-19 restrictions, my husband was only permitted to stay two hours after the birth. She was asked to leave and not allowed back until we were released. It was just me and my beautiful baby girl who was 8lbs, 9oz alone for 2.5 days after I was just recovering from major surgery.Meagan: Wow.Melanie: Those first few days were challenging. Breastfeeding was a disaster. A had terrible edema from all the fluids during the C-section. I was huge trying to breastfeed. I was just so puffed up. Everything was impossible. And again, because all the birthing people on the floor were without their partners, the nurses were run ragged. It was very difficult to receive care, to put it politely. I think honestly, a lot of the trauma that I have from that time came from my hospital stay afterward and how I was treated or how I felt kind of neglected and was again alone, in some of the most formative times of my motherhood experience. Meagan: Yeah. Melanie: So that was that really. That was my first birth. As the days progressed, and I got home and I just felt so defeated by and let down by how I was treated and not even how I was treated by people but by the situation. I mean, a lot of it was beyond anyone's control.Meagan: Yeah, that time, I have a lot of feelings. I was not a, mom birthing, but I was a doula supporting couples and saw a lot of really stupid stuff to say that didn't make sense at all. But everyone was so restricted and rules were changing literally by the day and even by the hour. Right?Melanie: Yeah.The hospital I gave birth that has since it kind of acknowledged that they took it a little too far. Laboring people shouldn't be alone. Who would have thought?Meagan: Women in labor should not feel deserted. Yeah.Meagan: So some of that was nice to hear but it was just a little too late for my own benefit. The more that all settled with me, and when we had our first baby, we didn't know down the road if we wanted more kids. I'm an only child. I love being an only child. So I thought, maybe a family of three is fine. But I remember sitting with my doctor at one of our follow-up appointments, and I just broke down by the whole experience and I was like, "I can't do that again. Regardless if I want to. I just can't." She was crushed by that. She just couldn't let me Live with that feeling. "If you don't want more kids, great. You don't. You do you. But that, that can't be how we leave you." So she recommended a therapist to me who has become one of the most dearest people in my life. She's also a doula. And all of her therapy practice focuses on birth trauma, infertility, infant loss, and things of that nature. She was a godsend once we decided that we were ready to have a second baby. I don't think I could have done any of the rest without her. So then moving on to my second birth, it took a while to come around to being ready for that. After that first experience, there was a lot of therapy and a lot of trying to recognize that what I went through wasn't my own fault.Meagan: Yes.Melanie: There was nothing. The choices I made and giving in to the epidural, that wasn't a moral failing on my part. Being alone wasn't that I was not deserving of care, it was just the situation of the time. So a lot of that took some time to reckon with. And then as I began, I knew right away that I was going to try for the VBAC.My doctor was, "Yeah, of course. If you want to 100%." She felt because I did labor so well once we finally got things going, she was pretty confident that things might go okay for me the second time. So she was a great support. But once I started looking into a lot of the VBAC literature in the VBAC world, there were so many pockets of it that I really struggled with. Some of the language around how we can prepare was really off-putting to me. It felt like if you know enough and if you do enough, you'll be okay. It just felt really focused on blaming people for whatever went wrong the first time, if you had known more, if you had advocated for yourself more, if you had breathed more or meditated more, things would have gone better. So I really tried to avoid some of that in preparing for my second birth. I was really focused on the things I could control. My doula/therapist/friend really helped me with a lot of that. A lot of what we focused on and preparing for that second baby was focusing on things that would be true regardless of how that birth happened.  I became really into this series of affirmations. That is not my thing. I'm not into that normally, but they became very treasured to me and still kind of are. I really prioritized creating ones for myself that would be true regardless of what happened. It wasn't about birthing my baby vaginally because that might not happen. I knew that going in. It was more about acknowledging that my body is strong and capable. That's true regardless of what happens. So those sort of sentiments really echoed through my whole pregnancy and leading up to the birth. For the most part, I had a pretty uneventful pregnancy except for the fact that in my 20-week anatomy scan ultrasound, they discovered that my placenta was low. It was partially covering my cervix. My doctor was great. She was like, "Yeah, don't worry about it. It'll move. We're not going to worry about that until we have to. That often happens. We're not going to let that slow us down right now".So that was fine. And then later in my third trimester, I was measuring gigantic. I'm a very small person. I'm barely 5 feet. I'm petite, and I grow big babies. I was measuring quite large. We re-screened for gestational diabetes. I had a weird borderline response. I was doing these funny diet things and trying to get that under control, but I was still measuring pretty large. But again, my doctor wasn't really discouraging about that. "I know people have big babies. The bony pelvis, it moves, don't worry about it." So I still felt pretty good, and I kind of loved the idea of tiny little me having this huge baby. it seemed like I'd be pretty proud of it. But I had to have a follow-up ultrasound to check on the placement of my placenta to see if it had moved enough. And it did. Fortunately, it seemed like it was in the clear. My doctor, who was lovely, indicated that this was not a growth scan. We were just checking the placenta. But of course, the maternal-fetal unit loved to check the size of that baby. So of course, he was huge. They were trying to really say, "Are you sure you still want to do this? Because he's going to be quite a large boy and all that." I mostly tuned that out. I was like, "Yeah, I know. No big deal. I know I can't do anything about that. That's not within my control at this point. I'm 32 weeks pregnant." We carried on as normal. At this point, I was going crazy. I was walking so much. I was seeing the chiropractor. I was doing prenatal yoga. I was curb-stepping everywhere. I lost my mind a little bit in terms of all the preparation I was trying to do trying to get everything right. I became super obsessed with the baby's positioning just knowing positioning had factored into my first birth. I don't think I lied on my right side for months. Basically, I was just really focused on trying to keep things where they should be. Get that baby low and in the right angle. It became a bit of an obsession, but also the thing I'd look back on in a really positive way. I got really good at feeling where he was trying to pick out a spine and what way he was facing. And in retrospect, it made me feel a lot closer to him than I had with my daughter in some ways when I was pregnant. I became very in tune to his movements.Meagan: Yeah.Melanie: So I look back on that and I'm thankful. But yeah. So things were fine. I was growing a big baby, but all seemed well. I felt like I had a great team who supported me and were progressing the way we wanted to. We kind of expected this baby would also be "late" just given my first was. So we kind of prepared for that. We talked about the ways we could induce if needed or how long I wanted to wait until an induction.At the hospital near me, it is standard of practice to be automatically booked for an induction one week past your due date. You get that letter in the mail regardless of whether you want it or not. So as my due date approached, I got that letter. I called my doctor. She canceled that. That was not our plan. We were going to wait and see. So she was great in terms of letting me make the call, I'll say. But at a week past, or I guess just a little over, I did have to have a biophysical. That was the condition which for me turning down the induction was to have the biophysical. And again, my doctor was great. She gave me the heads up that like, "It's pretty easy to fail these and you're 41+ weeks over too." So she was advocating for me that we were not going to jump the gun here. But it was the requirement of their unit to have that. So I went in for my biophysical at 41 and change. I can't remember the exact day. And lo and behold, we failed. I think we had a 6 out of 10. His heart rate didn't do the right things in the right order or whatever the scoring is. I can't recall. And he also didn't score for the seeing the breathing movements. I knew just from my own reading that a score of 6 was a gray area. I wasn't too worried about it. But the staff in the maternal field was like "Oh, well, you're having this baby today." I was like, "Well, no, I'm not. This is not my plan." I know they see the worst cases. That is their space, but I already had the conversation with my doctor so I felt pretty well-informed. I knew that I was not ready yet. I also knew that my doctor was on call that day.So I did go up to labor and delivery which is what they had recommended. She did another biophysical up there and then did a third non-stress test. I also failed the second biophysical but the non-stress test turned out okay. We needed some time, a bit of a walk, some water, and things seemed okay. So I went home and waited for another couple of days. At this point we were, we were really cooking. We were looking at 42 weeks. I did agree to have the induction on a Thursday. I was disappointed that we were going to have to have the induction. I forgot to mention this. I wasn't followed by an obstetrician during my pregnancy. I was with a family practice group. We don't have midwives in the area where I live, but we do have a family practice group who have delivery privileges but they can't perform Cesareans, obviously. So I was followed by this lovely GP who would have delivered had my babies been born vaginally. Because I had to transfer temporarily to the obstetrics unit for the induction, I knew I was going to  encounter some more pushback than I had faced to date with my current doctor because she was so lovely and supportive. I went in and prepared for that. And the OB on that day of my induction was quite-- I don't know how to put it politely. He was very blunt. I don't think he thought I was an overly smart person to be looking at 42 weeks still insisting on trying to have this very large baby vaginally. But to his credit, he respected my autonomy and was like, "Yeah, sure, we'll give it a shot. I think it's the wrong call, but it's your call to make." So I have a love/hate relationship with him to some extent. So they did another non-stress test and things looked okay. And then I think he left and a resident came in to start the induction. I was a little dilated, so they were going to try the Foley, which they had initially some trouble getting in. It was the worst pain I've ever been in that didn't compare it all to labor on my first. But that Foley was like, whew. As soon as the resident got it in, all hell broke loose. My husband was by my shoulder and just turned white as a ghost. The resident looks up and she's like, "I think that's a little more blood than we would expect." Meanwhile, I can just see it pouring onto her shoes. I'm just hemorrhaging. Meagan: Whoa. Melanie: I'm hemorrhaging. So she runs out. There's a nurse there trying to mop things up and I'm still holding whatever sort of contraption they used to hold the Foley in. The OB comes in with an ultrasound machine. They're, of course, fearing my placenta is beginning to rupture or whatever. So he's checking the ultrasound. The heart rate monitors plummet. The baby's heart rate drops into the 60s. The room fills with people and I'm petrified. I'm just shocked. The OB's trying to move me and trying to get the Foley out. It felt like an hour. I'm sure it was only a minute that the heart rate recovered, but the decision is made like, "We're going to the OR." They didn't know what the source of the bleeding was. I was still hemorrhaging. I asked the OB like, "Can I just talk to my husband for a minute?" And he said "No, we don't have time. We're going."So we go to the OR and it was really quick. It was so much faster than my first birth. I don't even think the terror really caught on to me until later when they finally gave me the baby and the OB ensured me, "Oh yeah, no. He wasn't without oxygen for any extent. He checked out okay. He's fine." And I'm not sure it hit me that that was ever in doubt that it could have gone a way that he wouldn't have been fine. So it was a lot. It was a lot. To say it wasn't what we were expected would be an understatement. To say I didn't get my VBAC was an understatement because it just became a conversation of so many greater things. Fortunately, my doctor happened to be in the hospital, and she took care of us. We only stayed there for a day. Fortunately, that was the main thing on my birth plan that regardless of what happened, to get me out of the hospital as quickly as possible. So we were released the next day. The baby was fine, and I was fine. We were all healthy. There was no great source of the bleeding outside of that they suspected that my placenta was still a little too low compared to how it showed on the scans from in my third trimester. So when they inserted the Foley, things shifted enough that it tore a teensy bit or something, and hence the blood, but not enough to cause damage to me or my son. But that, the proximity of my placenta to my cervix wasn't quite clear on that ultrasound in my third trimester. So, yeah, that's my birth story.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. You know, birth sometimes can unfold in those really wonky, unexpected ways. And like, I have questions too. Like, could they have torn your cervix from placing the Foley? Could the Foley have nicked your placenta if it was too low inside? Right? There are all of these questions, and we tend to go that way, wanting to know the answers, but sometimes we just don't know the answer. We've talked about this a long time ago in our radical acceptance. Julie and I did a radical acceptance episode, which if you haven't checked that episode our, I really highly suggest listeners check it out because sometimes there is not an answer. The answer is unknown and it will remain unknown. Sometimes not knowing the answer can consume us, and it can leave the trauma, the doubt, the fear, and all the feelings that come with. Sometimes that means we have to let it go. We're not getting the answer. We just not getting the answer. Letting it go helps us grow, helps us heal, helps us move on to that next stage.And when I say move on, I don't mean just ignore it, wipe it out, or it never happened. It's accepting that it happened. Accept that where we were then is where we were. We made the decisions we made with the information that we were given, and now we're moving on. You did the best thing you could do for your baby by saying, like, "Okay, yeah." And like you said, it didn't even happen or occur to you until later that, "Wait, my baby couldn't have been okay?" I'm sure that sat really heavily.Melanie: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, hugely. Right? It was. It all happened so quickly. There was so much blood. Again, you're on your back. You can't really see well, but when you see it just as when the resident leaves the room, and t's on her shoes. I'm not okay. There's a problem there right now, right? Yeah. And, you know, my son was big. He was 9 pounds, 15 ounces. I don't think his size had anything to do with this part of the conversation, but in my mind, I think I've somehow accepted that I think he was going to be born via Cesarean regardless of what happened in my first birth. My placenta was low right from the start. That was a known thing that I was going to deal with, C-section or not. I know there's obviously some evidence to show that the way placenta can attach can be influenced by previous C-section scars, of course. But, I think that's how I've been able to make peace with a lot of that. It was just always going to be this way for him. I don't know. Because I was empowered through some of the decisions I made, and because I felt genuinely supported by the people around me, except for maybe that kind of cranky OB besides him, it's much easier to come to terms with what happened. And in a lot of ways, even though, my second birth is the much scarier of the two situations, I don't have nearly as much trauma associated with it. It was a crappy birth. I'll be frank about it. But it is what it is. It was scary, but it's not what keeps me up at night sometimes still, like that first birth where I felt disempowered and disenfranchised and ignored and neglected. That is the lasting problem. While I've done a lot to overcome that, I think it just goes to show how we treat people in these moments can really have a lasting impact. It's not just about the physical pain, the physical trauma, and the health emergencies that cause trauma. It can be a lot of the emotional harm as well.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out and you mentioned this along the way with some of your prep you're like, "I am not the affirmation type. It's not my thing. I don't connect to it." But you did. I think affirmations are so powerful whether or not you are an affirmation person or not. I really think having those on your side can be impactful. Like you said, you're like, "I still kind of like, hold on to them and cherish them today."Melanie: I really do. I have a list of them on my notes app on my phone. They're the same ones. They were the ones I wrote when I was pregnant with my second baby. Sometimes when I'm having a bit of a bad day or when you see another one of those photos, like the people you referenced earlier who don't associate with the VBAC groups anymore, they don't see themselves every now and then, when a photo of a super strong, awesome person with their fist up in the air celebrating their VBAC. Some of those will just hit me the wrong way one day. I'll go back to those affirmations and remind myself that my body is strong and accomplished and whatever I need to hear that day. They do have a long-lasting impact. Another one that got me through a lot was, "I'm strong enough to face what comes." Whatever that is.Meagan: Strong enough to face what comes. I love that. Yeah.Melanie: Yeah, it's been a bit of a journey. My kids are 4 and 2 now. We're not sure if we're done.Meagan: Yeah.Melanie: But despite all of these experiences, I would still 100% go for another VBAC.Meagan: Yeah.So I was going to ask you that too. Do you feel at this point that you would rather just do Cesareans? Would you have said, "Looking back, I just wish I would have scheduled it at 40 weeks, or are you feeling pretty content and empowered with the choices that you made?"Melanie: That's a great question. I think about it a lot. I'm fairly positive I wouldn't have just scheduled the C-section. And partially because despite being alone for part of my labor with my first birth, I kind of loved labor. Before I got the epidural, I have never felt so strong and so awesome in my whole entire life. I was like, "I am woman. Hear me roar." Maybe that is just in retrospect, but I also have a couple of selfies from those few hours. I'm enjoying a lot of it. So when I was preparing for my second birth even knowing that maybe this will end up in a C-section, I kept thinking, "Oh, well, at least I'll get to labor again. I'll have that. That would be great." And I didn't. I didn't get any of that. I'm not turned away from that. I'd be very much open to trying again. I think if we were to have another, I would not do all the things I became so obsessed with making sure I was getting 12,000 steps or whatever it was, and the curb-walking and the squats. I did so many squats, and I ate so many dates. I would just let go of a lot of that because I think a lot of that was the pressure of, "You need to do everything you can to get this right." And I don't have that pressure on me anymore. Maybe because I'm older than I was then, or because I was maybe foolish. I think I know a little more, but I think I would just. Let's just try. Let's see what happens.Melanie: Yeah.Meagan: You know, I want to talk a little bit about that. You talked about how you did things that you could control, but then you also focused on how you went down that path of-- I call it obsession. The path of obsession.Melanie: It was.Meagan: I was once on the path of obsession as well with my second, my second that I wanted to VBAC that went Cesarean. I ate the dates. I drank the tea. I did all the things too, and then it didn't unfold exactly how I wanted it. I don't think the things that I did or the things that I didn't do, as far as the prep goes, really impacted as much as I didn't choose the right provider. But with my second, I let go of some of the things, but then hyper-obsessed with some of the other things. I didn't sit on a couch for nine months. I sat in a car really, really straight up paying attention to my sway back and my pelvis.But I did the things that I could control that felt right for me. I went to a chiropractor. That made me feel better. I was like, "All I can do is go and hope for the best. Right?" I drank my tea. I let go of the dates. I couldn't eat another date for a very long time. I do now. I actually add them to oatmeal and things, but I couldn't even stomach a date. There were things that I did and I didn't do. So try not to go down the path of obsession because I think sometimes it takes away from our pregnancy. Do all the things that you can do within your control that feel right. So eat well. Hydrate well. Get a good prenatal. Process your birth. Process your past birth. Know what you want. Hire a doula if you want to doula. Find your right supportive provider. But also, if it's too much and you need to be like, "You know what? I'm going to do what I can over here, and I'm just going to let it unfold over here," I don't think there's any shame in that. I don't think anyone should be like, "Well, but you're not doing x, y, z." Yeah, I'm not because right now it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. Melanie: That's exactly right. I think I was just so afraid if my birth didn't go well, if I would think that, "Oh, there's something else I could have tried." That was, I think, my mindset in preparing for that second birth. But I'm glad you mentioned the feeling right because I did actually give up the acupuncture at 40 weeks because I hated it. I hated going. I didn't like the way it made me feel. It made me groggy. I felt like I was sleepwalking.Meagan: Not right.Melanie: Not right, but yes, letting that go. But again,  initially, I felt guilty for it. Almost like I'm not doing everything I could. But sometimes we need to let that go if it doesn't feel right for us.Meagan: Yeah, I agree.So really quickly, to wrap this up, we asked for a secret lesson, and then we asked for your tips. I wanted to read what you wrote. When I said, "What is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish that you would have known ahead of time when preparing for birth?" Your answer was, "Birth stays with you forever. It's not something you just move on from." Like we were just saying, it isn't. It's not just something that you move on from and you forget about it. It's just gone. It's not. It really does stick with you, and it can impact future births. So know that that's a thing, and you need to work through that if you have trauma. She says, "My first birth was nearly five years ago, and the trauma still barrels over her." Likewise, the pride that you feel and how you advocated for yourself during your second birth continuously gives you strength. So I love that secret lesson. I think it's very empowering.And then when I asked, "What is your best tip for someone preparing for VBAC?" There's a lot here, and I'm just going to read exactly what you wrote because so it's all so good. And you also kind of talked about it within your story, but I just wanted to write what you wrote. It says, "Preparing for a baby and birth is a mental, emotional and cognitive journey, not just physical. I did so much work with the support of a wonderful doctor, doula, therapist and partner that all helped me cope with this birth. I did chiropractic care, pelvic floor PT, acupuncture, yoga, massage, but it was the mental work and preparation that I did that really made the difference." And then you said, "If someone is into affirmations, find or create some that will be true regardless of whatever happens." Again, pointing out what you said earlier. I think it's important to note. Women of Strength, you can prep. You could do everything, and sometimes when I think we do everything and then they don't unfold exactly how we think, "We did everything. And it sucked. It failed me." It's not true. You did everything that felt right for you, and you have to embrace that and congratulate yourself for that and say, "I did what I could." But I love that you talked about the affirmations that can stay true. I love that so much. Your body is strong. No matter how you birth your baby, your body is strong. So, there's something that you did through therapy and healing that I would love to talk on before we go. Is there any way you could dive into that a little bit?Melanie: Yeah, sure. So it's a practice called birth story medicine. I'm not an expert in it by any means, but it is the train of schooling that my therapist, who's also a doula, specializes in with birthing people who have birth trauma. It's really a part of a birth story. Listening. So having someone reciprocate in the dialogue of your birth story, really similar to what goes on in this podcast in a lot of ways, where you are being heard when you tell your birth story. But through that process, over months and months of the telling and retelling of my birth story, particularly that first birth, my therapist was able to really help me get to a place of re-seeing it. That's when I began to re-see my role in that. It really centers around this idea that through discussion and through sharing, that can be the medicine we need to heal emotionally. So it's again, not always about those physical scars we're left with, but emotionally what we carry and giving value to those, having those be heard in a space where they're not often heard. When we go into a hospital or a birth center, we don't always create space or are not always given the space to have those feelings and that trauma heard. That birth story medicine approach really helped me re-see my experience for my first birth.I love that you talk about this. We actually have something similar in our VBAC course when it comes to mental and physical prep because I think that's honestly where our course starts as mental and physical prep. I truly believe that's where this journey starts. But I talk about the senses. So when we are processing our birth or going through this birth medicine journey, I suggest doing things where you write your birth story. Physically write it. Read it, so you're seeing it. So you're physically doing the action. Now you're seeing it and you're reading it. Okay? Read it out loud to someone so you're hearing it being said and someone else is hearing it. Receive validation. Okay?Really walk through those five senses because I truly believe that it helps you heal. But hearing it, seeing it, writing it, being validated. I guess it's not even the five senses. We can't smell our birth, but we talk about that like taking yourself back, putting yourself in that feeling, hearing those sounds, smelling the smells and processing those is so empowering. It's a little different, but kind of similar. I love it. I love that so much. Is it birth medicine? Is that what you're calling it?Melanie: Birth story medicine. I can't remember the woman who wrote the book quite literally, but I recommend everyone check it out.Meagan: We're going to find it, and put it in the show notes. Birth story medicine. Here we go.Okay, really quickly before we go, will you give us two or three affirmations that really stuck with you if you have them? If not, no worries.Melanie: Oh, sure. I still do. So one that I don't hold on to as much now, but it was really important to me leading up to that second birth, especially given my first was, "I am not responsible for starting labor when it starts." I tried, but I had to remind myself, "I am not responsible for starting labor." Another one was, "My baby will be born. I will birth my baby."Meagan: Yes.Melanie: However that happens, I will birth my baby. The final one may be that again, I think because of the trauma I had from my first birth during the pandemic was, "I am not alone. My baby is with me."Meagan: Love those so much.Melanie: Oh no, I'm very emotional.Meagan: I'm sorry. I did not mean to make you emotional, but I really thank you so much for all of those and for your words. I am so happy that you were able to come through on the other side of this experience with the mindset that you have. I know it's not easy. I know it hasn't been easy. The journey is really a journey and like you said, it sticks with you forever. I will never forget all three of my births.As of the day of this very recording, my daughter turned 13 yesterday. My first C-section was 13 years ago yesterday. Let me tell you, I reflected deeply. I had a lot of emotions. I cried. I smiled. I had so many feelings that it, literally makes me emotional thinking about it right now. But you guys, I was amazing back then. I didn't fail. I didn't fail. I think that's just so important that we know that no matter how our baby is born, we are going to be with our baby. Our babies will be with us, and we didn't fail. We did the best we could, and you were incredible.Melanie: Thanks, Meagan. You too. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Brielle Brasil is a mama's coach, breathwork facilitator, and somatic trauma resolution therapist. She shares her two birth stories as a foreigner living in the Dominican Republic. Brielle's first birth was an unexpected, traumatic C-section. After putting in the work to heal, Brielle felt ready to explore birth options that she thought were unattainable. She was creative and intuitive throughout the entire process.Julie and Brielle also dive deeper into how trauma is stored in the body, how somatic trauma resolution can help, and why it's important not to try to heal trauma on your own.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right, Women of Strength. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is Julie and I am here with a very special guest today, Brielle. I am really excited to hear her stories. She gave birth in the Dominican Republic twice, both her C-section and her VBAC. We were just talking about that because my previous guest who I just recorded with in episode 370 also lived in the Dominican Republic. She had her babies back in the States. She flew back to the States. It was just such a coincidence. I am mind-blown. What are the chances?Brielle: So wild. Julie: I know. Brielle had both of her babies there. I'm so excited to hear about her stories and her experience, but before we do that, I am going to read a Review of the Week that Meagan texted me this morning if I can find it in all of our text messages. Okay, here it is. This review is on Apple Podcasts from janaerachelle. She says, “I am so happy I found this incredible podcast. After having two prior C-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another C-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered, educated, and hopeful I can do this. Thank you for all of the true facts in a safe space where we can all talk about our birth trauma in a space where we don't sound ‘crazy' for doing something that God created our bodies to do.” I love that so much. I think that the birth world is so interesting in lots of different ways and lots of different things. It can be incredibly wild to desire something that can be considered outside of the box. I'm glad that VBAC is becoming more and more common and that we are talking about it more. Sometimes, when I'm so deep in this VBAC world, it can be easy to forget that some people think it is the wildest thing ever. Brielle: Yeah. Absolutely. People in the Dominican Republic for sure fall into that box of, “What? You can actually have a baby vaginally after having a C-section?” People didn't know that was an option.Julie: Yeah. People just don't know. All right, let's get to it. I am so excited to hear your stories. I am really on the edge of my seat right now. Before I have you get into those, I'm just going to introduce you a little bit. This is Brielle. She is a Mama's Coach, breathwork facilitator, and somatic trauma resolution therapist. She helps postpartum and pregnant women heal from their previous birth trauma, forgive themslves, their bodies, their babies, and their previous team so they can go into their next birth confident, free, and in tune with their motherly intuition fully trusting themselves, their bodies, their babies, and birth.I have lots to say about this, but I'm going to wait until the end because I don't want to start going off on too many tangents too soon. But I'm excited. I want to hear more. We will definitely talk about that after the birth stories, and I'm super excited. She lives in Virginia, and we are both commiserating about how things are shifting to the chilly side of the weather today, but I am going to sit here cozy in my blanket while I am listening to Brielle's stories giving birth in the Dominican Republic. Go ahead, Brielle. Take it away, and I am excited to hear. Brielle: Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on here. It's such an honor, and it feels really surreal because I listened to this podcast a ton during my second pregnancy. Yes. I am not Dominican. I am American, and I was a foreigner having both of my babies in a foreign country. As you mentioned about the woman you recorded with earlier, most foreigners who are in the Dominican Republic don't have their babies in the Dominican Republic. I was part of an international community, and my husband was an international teacher. It was just assumed that if you are not Dominican, you are going to go back to wherever your home country was to give birth. Right after that, the fact that I was deciding both pregnancies to give birth there because the most important person for me to have at my birth was my husband and the only way to have him at my birth, because it wasn't a summer baby and he was a teacher. It was an April baby, and then a May baby the next time. The only way to have him there was to have our babies i the Dominican Republic. I'll just start off with the first birth. I went into it very fearful having a baby abroad where the language spoken is not my first language. Spanish is not my first language. It was fearful solely for the fact that I was doing it in a foreign country not even really realizing the fears that I had around birth itself until later. I found a doula, and I really liked her. I didn't know much about the OB/GYNs there. She had recommended a couple of them to me and the one that she had used for her births which were all Cesareans, but she said he was a great doctor and he spoke English fluently. I went to him. I stuck with him. Right away, I didn't feel anything initially wrong. He was very knowledgeable. He was up to date on what seemed like a lot of research. But then as things would progress, he would start to question me asking questions to him which was odd, but at the same time, I was like, “Well, he's fluent in English. I feel comfortable in that regard. My doula recommended him.” It was my first time doing this, I was just going to stick with him. Then at about 37-38 weeks pregnant, I started to get the real red flags. Red flags as in him starting to talk about induction already and I'm only 37-38 weeks pregnant. At that point, I just felt like, “Well, okay.” It was clear to me that these were red flags, but I also felt like I didn't have another option. I felt like at that point I was too far along. It was too late in the game. I had seen him my whole pregnancy. I just needed to stay with him. I had prodromal labor for about a week. During that week, this was weeks 39-40. During that week, I went into that office every other day. It was a lot. We were just a little bit obsessive over the time and the clock and everything. I went in several times. I got three membrane sweeps which were all pretty painful. We were trying to “get things to start naturally” and as natural as possible. I know membrane sweeps aren't really, but we were trying to help things along because I was having that prodromal labor. I would have contractions for hours, and they would stop for hours. Also, my husband and I were trying to have things happen naturally as well, so we were having a lot of sex that last week around the clock. Somewhere, I think, from probably the amount of sex we were having and making sure to go to the bathroom right after, I ended up getting a UTI. I think it was the day before my due date when I started to get sick. I started to get a fever. I started to get a high fever. My husband was like, “We need to go into the doctor.” I didn't want to because I was fearful of knowing what he was going to say. At that point, I didn't feel like I trusted him because of the red flags that were coming up. I begged my husband, “Let's not go. Let's see if it goes away.” We waited 24 hours, and it didn't. He was like, “I don't feel comfortable.” I was like, “I get it. Okay, we'll go.” We went in. Of course, they checked the baby's heart rate which was a little bit high. I just felt pretty much like shit. The fever kept coming and going. Because I had the contractions going on and off, he was like, “We need to get labor underway.” They didn't know yet it was a UTI. They were like, “We need to test and see why you're sick and run labs.” He was like, “I recommend that you go to the hospital and get induced. We will run all of the tests.”He was afraid I had COVID actually, but it wasn't that. He was like, “We just need to run the tests, get you induced, and get this thing going on because that shouldn't be happening.” I didn't know anything about prodromal labor or any of that. I was scared. I was in a foreign country. I just wanted my baby to be healthy. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Let's go.” We all went. I got induced that morning. Looking back on it and having done the healing work I did, I can see that I just wasn't ready. My body wasn't fully ready yet. My baby wasn't ready yet. It was just a rushed timing scenario because I got induced that morning. They did the test. They found that I had a UTI, so they were treating me with antibiotics while pumping me with Pitocin. On and off all day long, my fever would go away, then it would come back, then it would go away, and then it would come back. I would pick up contractions and be in labor. That was hard to deal with when I was sick. I felt zero energy hardly at that point being sick. That was at 9:00 in the morning. I got induced. It went on and off all day. The contractions were doing the same thing all day. They would pick up for a few hours, then they would stop for a long while. What was interesting, I noticed, is that every time my doctor would come into the room to check me, my contractions would completely stop around him. Looking back, I can tell I didn't feel safe with him. I just had past trauma with males. I shouldn't have ever had a male provider personally. I could tell those things in hindsight, but it was just all happening. By the end of the day in the evening, he was like, “You haven't made any progression dilation-wise. The baby's heart rate's really high, so I suggest we go into a C-section.” My husband and I were just like, “Yeah.” Like I said, we wanted our baby to be healthy. We were fearful. We went into C-section, and we had him. I was just numb through the whole experience because I had really desired everything of my first birth to be natural. I actually wanted a home birth my first go around, but I thought it was illegal in the DR because I didn't know there were any midwives. There were no birthing centers in the DR. Nobody I had ever talked to had ever had a home birth in the DR, and I was actually told, and my doula actually thought home birth was illegal because it was so, so, so, so rare in the DR. I was just under the impression that it was illegal, so I didn't plan a home birth. But I tried to plan a hospital birth that would hopefully be as natural as possible. Instead, I got the opposite. I had a lot of the cascade of interventions that I didn't want to have at all. I wanted things to happen spontaneously and to have minimal time in the hospital. I wanted that skin-to-skin right after, and my baby was taken away from me right after he was born which was very traumatic. I had to work really hard to heal all of that. But nonetheless, he was born. He had pooped himself inside of my womb, so there was meconium there. They told me that his cord was wrapped in a way that he couldn't progress, and that's why I wasn't dilating and he wasn't descending. It's like they tried to give me some reasons why that was the right way. It's not that I don't believe that, but in hindsight and after a lot of the healing work I did, I can see why everything went down the path it did because I felt rushed at the end of the day. I felt like that word “induction” was being thrown around so much and I didn't want that. I had to take matters into my own hands and try to do all of the “natural” inductions. Also, at the end of the day, my son was born the week before Semana Fante in the Dominican Republic which is Holy Week which is a huge, huge holiday week, so I did also find out that some of the members of the birth team had plans for Easter week and travel plans, so I knew that there was a bit of a rush from that end which made me feel rushed and just made the whole process one that I needed to heal from in big, big ways. So after I had my son, postpartum was really, really hard. Breastfeeding was hard. Everything was hard. I realize everything was so hard not only because I was a new mom and didn't have the support I needed, but because my birth was incredibly traumatic– and I didn't think of it that way at first because I was like, “My son is born. He is healthy.” But then 6 months after I had my son, I was still having physical pain at my scar site. I got it checked out. Nothing medically or physically was wrong with it, but what I know being in the line of trauma work that I do is that our body holds trauma, and everything is connected physically and emotionally within our bodies and within ourselves. About 6 months after I had him, I was still having that pain. I decided to work on my birth trauma. I worked on it from all different levels. I worked on it from the physical level. I started seeing an osteopath who I worked with for the next several months. Within a matter of weeks, a lot of the pain was gone. I also started working on it with a traumatic somatic trauma coach who is also a birth attendant. I found her because she was in the same trauma certification group that I went through. I worked with her for 6 months to heal everything from that birth and all of the trauma that it caused to forgive myself, to forgive my baby, to forgive my team, to feel safe again in my body, to feel at peace, to feel at home in my body, to connect back to my body, to connect to my baby, and just a number of things that we did together somatically and through breathwork to really peel back all of the layers of my birth, and not just my birth, but all of the births that came before me in my lineage to heal and heal deeply. It was a big, big work that we did together. It was not a small undertaking, but I will say that I feel. I feel that the work that I did to heal my first birth spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically was the best catalyst I could have had on my side for my next pregnancy and my next birth. So I got pregnant in August of 2022, or sorry, 2023. It's interesting because I had thought about home birth the first time, and because of the timing, we were again going to have our baby in the DR. Is home birth a thing there? Sure enough, you put it out in the universe, and I started to meet people who were having home birth, mostly foreigners who were having home births in the DR. I think three, which was huge because before, I had not even heard of it. I was like, “​​Wow, okay. This is happening here. This is allowed here. This is legal here. What are you guys doing? What are you guys going through?” I started getting the right contacts of the right people and found out that there is a midwife in Fountaindomingo, one. I met with her. I was so excited because I was like, “​​This is great. She gets to be my midwife.” Then she told me that her dad was sick at the time, and she was going to be helping him. She told me, “I'm not going to be working during the time of your due date.” I was like, “​​Okay, so we just need to look at other options.” Right off the bat, everything I did for my second pregnancy was a 360 from my first one. With my first one, I was like, “Okay, it's this one guy. It has to be.” I was very narrow because I was scared.With the second one, I was like, “​​Okay, it's not her. I'm going to keep my options open. I'm going to keep my mind open. We'll find someone.” My husband just did a Google search of traveling midwives in the US. We had a call with my midwife, Brittany, who is from Texas. Right after the Zoom call, I looked at my husband. I was crying because I felt such a connection with her. I was like, “​​She's it. She's the person who has to be at my birth. I feel so safe with her. I feel so seen and supported. She's everything I would look for in someone to deliver my baby. She's both nurturing and has a calming presence, but she's also direct and not going to sugarcoat things. I need a beautiful blend of both.” I was really excited. We ended up signing a contract with her, and in the meantime, I got my prenatal care from an OB/GYN office throughout my pregnancy, and of course, to have a backup option in place. I switched OB/GYNs three times this pregnancy, and the last time I switched, I think, was as late as 32 weeks pregnant. I had been with the second gal. The first two OB/GYNs I was with– they were all women– were from recommendations from the midwife who wouldn't be working during my birth. She had recommended the first two. The first one, I loved, but she wasn't fluent in English, so neither one of us felt comfortable in terms of communication and being able to fully communicate when it comes to birth. I was bummed, but that one didn't work out. I went to the second one she recommended. This one was a lot more fluent in English. I could communicate with her fine, and she was direct, but her bedside manner was so direct that she didn't have that calming and nurturing confidence. She was confident, but she didn't have the calming, nurturing side that I also wanted. She said a couple of things that didn't vibe very well with me. It was so direct that it was hurtful. At 32 weeks, I was like, “​​You know what, babe? I love my first choice for my team, but if something happens, I don't love my second choice.” I was determined. I just kept looking, and through one of the girls who had a home birth, she had heard of the woman that I went to as my third option. She had recommended, “If you decide to have it in the hospital, here are a couple of people I have heard good things about through friends.” I went to this woman, Lini Capalon, from 32 weeks. I didn't tell her I was planning a home birth. I decided not to tell her. I told the second lady. She had gotten a little iffy about it because it's not illegal there, but again, it's so uncommon there that it's hard for them to wrap their head around it basically. I'll put it that way.With the third woman, I didn't tell her, but she knew I wanted to have a VBAC. She had done a number of VBACs herself, and she had told me before I even started talking to her, she was like, “​​Look. We want this birth to be as natural as possible for your highest chance at VBAC.” She was like, “​​You need to go into labor spontaneously. We don't want to interfere at all. I don't want to interfere with you. I don't want to give any interventions.” She was like, “​​You can go until you're 42 weeks and 3 days before we'll then talk about induction.”I was floored because I didn't think this existed in an OB/GYN in the DR. First of all, that they're doing VBAC, and secondly, that they're for it. We were talking about this, Julie, a little bit before we hopped on that the C-section rate in the Dominican Republic is 90%. 9-0 in private hospitals, and public hospitals are really, really not great. If you have the choice, you wouldn't want to birth in a public hospital. You are already going into a private hospital with a 90% chance of a C-section.Julie: That is so wild. It is so wild. Brielle: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I learned that through the midwife who was in Santo Domingo. Julie: Well, and I almost wonder if the 10% who are not Cesareans are the ones who go so fast or are on accident. Do you know what I mean? Brielle: Yeah. Yeah. Or just everything progresses, I don't want to say normally, but quickly.Julie: Quickly, yeah.Brielle: Quickly. You're not “late” at all. I did have a friend who actually had a vaginal birth in the DR about a month after me. That was very hard for me as well and very triggering because she also had the same doctor as me the first go-around.Julie: Oh no. That's hard.Brielle: That was a big part of my healing journey too. But yeah, her water broke. She went into labor. She progressed quickly and had the baby. There was not anything out of the “norm”. Anyway, that's how it needs to happen if you're going to have a chance. The fact that I had found her, then she was pro-VBAC and had VBAC experience was really rare because I was also saying that VBACs are unheard of in the DR. After I had my second baby, people were like, “​​What? You had your baby vaginally? Didn't you have a C-section before?” They didn't know that was possible.I went with her for my backup option. Then, here we go. I was 38 weeks and 5 days pregnant. My midwife is scheduled to come. She has her flight booked for the day before my due date. I'm still 10 days out before she's supposed to come. I lose my mucus plug, and I have my bloody show. Of course, I message her. She's like, “​​Well, here's the thing. You could go into labor anytime now. It could be tomorrow, and it could be 2 weeks from now. We just don't have any way to predict that.” I was like, “Okay, cool. Great.” But another thing that I had worked largely on this pregnancy and a big reason why I kept changing OB/GYNs and a big reason why I said no to a lot of things during my pregnancy and started speaking my voice is because I found my intuition or re-found it, and really listened to it every step of the way. Any time anything felt the slightest bit off, I was like, “​​Nope. We're not doing that.” It took an incredible amount of tuning everything out, tuning out all of the noise and opinions and everything that's out there and really just listening within. After that happened, I lost my mucus plug. She wasn't supposed to come for 10 days. She tells me, “It could be tomorrow. It could be 2 weeks.” I slept on it, and then the next day, I was like, “​​Brittany, I think you need to get here sooner. When's the soonest you can come?” This was Friday. She was like, “I can come this Sunday in two days.” I was like, “​​Great. Can you change your flight?” She was like, “​​Yeah. Can you pay the difference?” I'm like, “​​Yeah, that's fine.” She changes her flight to Sunday. Her Airbnb was on the street that I live on. She gets to her AirBnB at 3:00 PM on Sunday. That night, I had about three or four days of prodromal labor before that. That night, at 7-8:00 PM is when I finally started having regular contractions, and my water broke that night at about 11:00 PM the day that she got there. Julie: Your baby was waiting. They just knew. Brielle: They knew. I knew. I was like, “​​You've got to get here sooner.” Baby Alana was waiting. Everything was happening in perfect timing. I told her that my water broke. She came over. Labor started. My contractions were regular. I let my husband sleep because I also didn't know how long it was going to be because I had prodromal with this one too. I had it for a week before. I'm like, “​​I don't really know for sure if it's the real thing. I'm going to let him sleep for now. He supposedly has to work tomorrow, but we'll see.” Things were regular, active, and intense all night long. He ended up waking up at 4:00 AM and coming up and setting up the birthing tub at that point. I didn't know if I wanted a water birth or not, but I knew I wanted to have it as a comfort option and I wanted the option should I want to birth in there when the time came. So he set up the tub, and my doula came over. I had pretty intense contractions until Monday morning. Our nanny came over because my son, my 2.5-year-old was just 2 at the time, he woke up and he had school. She was getting him ready for school. He woke up, and even though the nanny was with him, that slowed my contractions down a little bit because it's hard when your son's not there to be in mom mode somewhat. Things slowed down a little bit while he was getting ready for school. He went to school. I was feeling a little frustrated because things had slowed down. My husband was like, “​​Let's go outside. Let's go for a walk.” We left the apartment. We went for a walk. My husband had me doing squats which I wish in hindsight I had reserved that energy. I didn't know how long labor would go on. I was hunched over. Cars were stopping, “Are you okay?” as we were walking down the street and people were on their way to work because things were picking up again.I'm like, “​​Okay, I think we need to get back to the apartment.” He helped me. We get back to the apartment. We get back inside. Things got really intense again. It was Monday morning. I'm in and out of the birthtub. I'm on the birth ball listening to HypnoBirthing tracks using my breath. I'm a breathwork facilitator, so it wasn't hard for me to tune into different breath patterns that were feeling good and supporting the intensity of everything. Monday afternoon came. My son got off to school. He came home. The same thing happened. They slowed down a bit while he got lunch and got ready for his nap. He went for his nap, then things really picked up. My midwife knew I didn't want to be checked because of the whole thing before of, “You're 1 centimeter,” and a week later, “You're 1.5 centimeters. You're not progressing,” type thing. I knew I didn't want to be checked, but I think she could tell by the intensity and by the look in my eyes that I must be close to needing to push.She said, “I know you don't want to be checked, but do you mind if I check you and not tell you the number just to see where things are at?” This was Monday afternoon. I'm like, “​​Sure, that's fine.” She checked me. I was like, “​​You can tell my husband where I'm at, and he can decide if I should know.She checked me, and then a bunch more of my water gushes out, and then she blurts out, “You're fully dilated. You're ready to push.” I was like, “​​Really? That's awesome. Great. Sounds great to me.” It had been a little over 12 hours at this point. I was like, “​​Okay.” But I also told her, “Really? I don't feel the urge to push. I don't feel like I need to push.” She explained to me that VBAC patients sometimes don't feel that urge. That's possible that you might not feel the urge. I was like, “​​Okay.” I leaned on her a little bit more for what positions to try and stuff like that and the actual mode of how to push because again, it wasn't coming naturally. It wasn't coming instinctively because I didn't feel that urge. For the next, I think, 4 or 5 hours, I pushed at home. I pushed in the tub. I pushed out of the tub. I pushed on my bed. I pushed on the floor. I pushed in kneeling, hands and knees. You name the position. I feel like I probably tried it. I was absolutely exhausted because, of course, I didn't sleep the night before. Eating was hard. I wasn't getting what I needed nutritionally to keep up energetically with how long the labor was getting and how long the pushing was getting, but I also didn't want to eat. I felt like I couldn't get hydrated. I was exhausted. There were a number of times I looked at my husband, and I looked at my doula, “I can't do this anymore.” They were encouraging me, “Yes, you can.” I got on my hands and knees and prayed. I was listening to my tracks. I had my crystals that I work with, and I'm just talking to my spirit guides and all of this stuff. After 4 or 5 hours, I was beat. I was so defeated. I was beat. My midwife was like, “​​Why don't we give it a rest for a little bit?” She was intermittently checking our baby's heart rate and checking me. All of that was fine. The baby was fine. I was fine the whole time, so she kept saying, “Both of you are fine. You can stay here longer. There is no rush because both of you are fine. There is no need to go to the hospital if you don't want to. If you want to, that's an option, and it's fine.” I was like, “​​No. I'm just going to take a break from pushing, and try to rest.” Of course, I'm in active labor, so trying to rest is hard, but I just stopped with trying to push for a couple of hours, then it was getting into Monday night. My son had gone to bed for the night. It had been a few hours of this “resting”, but really intense contractions, and she asked me, “Do you want me to check you again? Do you not? Just to see what's going on. I don't know what's happened.” She checked me.She said, “I have bad news.” I was like, “​​Okay, give it to me, I guess.” She explained to me that there are two layers of the cervix, the outer and the inner. When she had checked me before I pushed for that 4 or 5 hours, she realized she could only feel one layer. The layer that she felt was fully dilated, but then when she was checking me this time Monday night, she was feeling the other layer, and it wasn't fully dilated. It was around a 7. She said that was why our baby– she had been sitting so low for this whole time. She was there, but couldn't get around that other layer which is why the pushing wasn't really doing anything to get her out. I was like, “​​Okay.” It was hard to hear, but also kind of relieving to hear in a way because I was like, “​​Well, I just did all of that work for nothing? What?” That's what it felt like, but then it also felt like, “Okay, well, at least there is a reason why I was pushing, and it wasn't happening. It just wasn't.” I trusted the timing. I was so trusting in this birth. I was so trusting of the timing. I was so trusting of my baby. I was so trusting of my body and myself. I had done so much work around that to trust myself. I was like, “​​Okay.” I rested some more. Everything was fine. I continued to labor at home until about midnight. I was in the birthing tub, and at about midnight, I started to feel absolutely terrible, just incredibly weak. I had now been up for over two days and had two nights with no sleep. The four days before that was bad sleep because it was prodromal labor. My body was really exhausted. I was emotionally exhausted and mentally exhausted in every way.It was midnight. I was going through the second night now. I was just like, “​​Guys, I don't feel well. I feel really bad.” She checked my vitals. Everything was fine. I was like, “​​I feel like my blood pressure was really low. I felt like I was going to pass out.” She was like, “​​Have you eaten any protein today?” I had eaten a lot of carbs and was staying hydrated. I was like, “​​No, I guess not.” She was like, “​​Let's try some protein.” I absolutely didn't want that, but my husband was force-feeding me a ton of chicken. My husband does acupuncture as a side thing. I was like, “​​Can you give me acupuncture to progress things or help with this terrible feeling I have to give me some energy?” He did acupuncture on me. He was force-feeding me chicken. Right after that, I got back in the birthing tub. I projectile vomited everywhere. After I threw up, I was like, “​​Oh, I feel better now.” It was so bizarre. I was going through a whirlwind at this point. I was like, “​​I feel better. I feel like I can continue now.” This was midnight now. My midwife said, “Okay, you can continue.” I continued the next four hours in and out of the tub, on the birthing ball. My husband was asleep at this point. My doula had to leave because her daughter was sick. I'm dozing off in the tub between every contraction which was only every 15 seconds because I was so tired, then the contractions would come. They'd be level 100, insane intensity. They'd be a minute and a half, then I'd get to fall asleep for 15 seconds then wake back up and do it again, and do it again on repeat for 4 or 5 hours. Then it's 4:30 AM. I know it's getting close to rush hour. There's a lot of traffic during rush hour in Santo Domingo. If we tried to go to the hospital during rush hour, it probably would have taken us 2, maybe 3 hours to get there. I told my midwife at 4:30 AM, “Can you check me?” She checked me, and that same layer was still at a 7. It was maybe a 7.5. I told her, “I'm ready to throw in the towel.” What I meant by that was, “I'm ready to surrender to this process,” which means I'm not going to do it here at home anymore. Intuitively, that felt very right to me to go. It was time to try something different. I had been home for 35 hours at labor. We had worked with everything that was there. I had all of my tools that I had, and I felt like something needed to change.Julie: You were so tired. You worked so hard for so long. An exhausted body is just exhausted and not effective at laboring.Brielle: No, not at all.My midwife and my husband packed up my bag. My midwife ended up having to stay at our house because my son was sleeping. Our nanny couldn't get there until 6:00 or 7:00 AM. My doula, her kid was sick, and she had to go home. My husband and I had to go to the hospital. The next two hours were insane. Once I decided I was going to the hospital, I basically had no breaks in my contractions. The time that they were packing my bags, and then we were going down to the car and driving to the hospital which was quick because there was no traffic at 5:00 AM. Those 15 minutes, we thought we were going to have the baby in the car. At this point, I was having zero breaks. The intensity was through the roof. We walk into the hospital. My husband has to do paperwork, so I'm all by myself. I'm just roaring like a lion at this point. I'm barreled over. This is so intense. I don't have my tub or my ball or anything at this point. I didn't have any pain relief medically, but I didn't even have the things I had at home to help me. I'm just barreled over and roaring and screaming and super primal. My doctor finally showed up. He finishes the paperwork. That whole thing was probably 2 hours of me not having any type of relief, really, just to get to the hospital. That was the toughest part, I think.Then my OB/GYN, Leni, comes in. She checks me, and she's like, “​​You're fully dilated. You're ready to push.” She didn't know I had been at home. She didn't know everything that was going on and that I was planning a home birth. I said, “I am not pushing this baby out right now.” I said, “I pushed at home for 5 hours. I've been in labor for 35 hours. I haven't slept in 3 days. I projectile vomited everything.” I'm not saying this. I was huffing and puffing through this, but I looked at her, and I'm just like, “​​Give me an epidural now. I'm not doing this anymore.” She was like, “​​Technically, we're not supposed to. You're fully dilated.” She was like, “​​Okay, all right. We'll get you the epidural.” They wheeled me up. They gave me the epidural. My husband didn't go into the room with me. I thought I was just getting the epidural in this room, but it was the birthing room. I didn't know because I hadn't done the full tour of things beforehand. I mean, I did a little bit, but I didn't put it together at the time where I was getting the epidural. I thought I was going to have a break to take a nap. I was going to get the epidural, then I was going to take a nap, then I was going to push the baby out. That's not how it went. They were like, “​​All right, whenever you feel the next contraction.” I'm like, “No, I can't. Where's my husband? My husband's not here.” They were like, “​​It's hospital policy. Nobody can be in here with you.” I was like, “​​What?”Julie: No.Brielle: Yeah. I lost my shit. I lost my shit. I am like, “​​Absolutely not. Get him in here now! I'm not doing this without him. He's been here every minute beside me for the last 35 hours, but also for the last 7 years of my life. I'm not doing this without him.” They were all looking at each other, like, “​​Look, when it gets close and when he is crowning, we will bring him in.” I was like, “​​Okay,” so I pushed when the contractions came. I was surprised I could still feel the contraction, but after the epidural, thank God. It was what my body needed at that point. I was like, “​​Thank you for modern medicine. There is a reason it exists.” But after 30 minutes of pushing, they just randomly asked me, “Do you have a doula?” I didn't say anything about my actual doula, but I said, “My husband is my doula. Get him in here.” They were like, “​​Okay, okay. We're going to bring him in now.” They brought him in. He started coaching me like a drill sergeant or a CrossFit coach or something, but he was like, “Just do it!” He knew me so well, and he knew in that moment that I wanted a VBAC so badly, and he also knew everything I had been through that previous 35 hours. He knew we needed to do this. He knew we needed to get on with it. He was coaching me and basically screaming at me. It was exactly what I needed in that moment. After he came in, 30 minutes later, I pushed her out. She was born. They brought her to my chest. Everything my OB/GYN told me, she stuck by her word. She was like, “​​You will have skin-to-skin. You will have that hour.” They asked me, “Can we take her to do x, y, and z?” I was like, “​​No, not yet. Don't take her yet.” They did the things they needed to while she was on top of me. Everything they had promised, they fulfilled. That, I feel like, was why I just felt intuitively really good about both options, my first option and my backup option. I went with that, and it was exactly the way it was supposed to be. Julie: Yeah, I love that. I think being able to trust is such an important thing in the birth space, being able to trust yourself, your care team, your partner, all of your different options, your birth location, and all of that is just so connected to how our bodies can work and trust that process, and yeah. That was great. So good. Brielle: Yeah, that was a huge part of my experience. It was learning to trust myself, the timing, my baby, and my body fully. Healing my experience and just following my intuition completely.Julie: Yeah, I love that so much. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what you did to prepare with the breathwork and the somatic trauma work? I mean, did you get into that before or after? I'm assuming before because your baby is pretty young. How old is your baby now?Brielle: My baby was 5 months the other day. In between pregnancies, and I was not pregnant. I was 6 months postpartum from the first one that I started doing it personally for myself. Do you mean as a practitioner when I got into the work? Julie: Mhmm. Brielle: As a practitioner, I got into this work 5-6 years ago. I was already facilitating breathwork and coaching people for trauma, but not birth trauma. I had gotten my trauma resolution coaching certification and my trauma-informed breathwork certification before I ever had kids. I was really excited to get to use my breathwork and all of my tools and everything for my first birth, but that ended up going a completely different way. I did still use it, but it looked a lot different than I thought it would. I got into this work. I was coaching people on their trauma through a somatic way. Basically, trauma lives in the cells of our body, and it stays in the cells of our body unless we somatically move it through our physiology. There are two major ways we can do that. One is through a type of somatic coaching that I do, and the other is through breathwork. They are both somatic practices, but one is using the breath in a very intentional and activating way to help move that trauma through our cells and out. The other one is using a very hands-on– they are both body-based, but one is more of a visualization. I take you through an experience where you are feeling where things are living in your body. Basically, you are attuning to where there are certain activations in your body as I take you through a lived, traumatic experience. We are finding where that trauma lives in your body with a somatic coaching so I'm able to use a lot of tools to help you visualize it and then move that out.Then with breathwork, it's similar, but we are using the breath. The breath is automatically going to the spaces energetically where the trauma is living to help move it out.Julie: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. It reminds me. I've done a lot of therapy work. My therapist would ask. I've done lots of group therapy, individual sessions, and all of the things. One of my therapists who would lead our group sessions would say, “What do you feel and where are you feeling it?” We would take turns identifying what in their body needs to be addressed. You've got to describe it. What does it feel like? Does it have a sensation or a taste or a smell? Is it heavy or is it light? Does it have a color? Where in the body is it?I hated it, to be honest. It was the worst thing ever. Brielle: It's really deep.Julie: It's crunchy. Yeah. It's deep, and you have to be comfortable getting uncomfortable, and reaching and stopping and being in tune with your body. I hated it so bad for a very long time, but even now, I don't do those group sessions or anything or anymore. Every once in a while, I'll scan my body. “Okay, what do I feel and where am I doing it?” I try to get my kids to do it, and they're like, “I don't know what the freak you mean, Mom.” They're still young, but I know what you are talking about with that work. What is it? Moving it out, how to release it. That's so important. Brielle: It's so great. It transcends as I work with a client. They feel it. They see it in a certain way. It has textures, colors, and shapes, and we stay with it. We don't stay with it beyond the point that they feel they can stay with it. If that's super uncomfortable for them, we go back to our resource which I do at the beginning of the session.I'm not taking them through an experience in a way that is beyond their capacity to move through it. The body won't ever take them through something that they don't feel ready to handle. I think that's really important to specify because if you're just talking about this work and you have never heard of it, that can sound really scary.It is deep work, but at the same time, because of my trainings and with breathwork as well being trauma-informed, I never take a client to a place that their body is not actually physiologically ready to go into. Julie: Yeah, that's really important. It's such an intuitive thing. You talked a lot about intuition too. One thing I wanted to say before we close out the episode is that you mentioned earlier in the episode about learning to forgive yourself. That was something I don't think we talk about a lot or think about a lot, but it's something that I had to go through as well after my C-section. My thing was forgiving myself for not knowing what I didn't know going into my birthIt can sound kind of silly. What do I need to forgive myself for? But sometimes, we focus a lot on forgiving others in the situation and our team or our partner or whatever, but we don't often direct that inward. I think that's such an important part to give yourself grace and mercy and love and forgiveness and go through and not judge yourself too harshly or hold yourself to an unrealistic standard especially when you didn't have the information then that you have now.So I think that's an important part of the process as well.Brielle: That's a big amount of the work I do with my clients as well is that self-forgiveness piece and really forgiving their bodies because a lot of them feel like, “My body failed me or my body is broken.” That was a lot of work I had to do myself personally after my first birth to realize, “No, my body didn't fail me. My body's not broken. Nothing was wrong with me.” But if we don't do that forgiveness work for your body to yourself, that trauma is still going to be living in ourselves and still expecting. I'm not going to say it's going to give you a repeat experience, but we're still having that physiological presence where like attracts like. That's still in there. That's still the drawing factor of something that your body is expecting. It's still holding that past experience.Julie: Right. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. I encourage everybody to do the work, but also, I think's important to mention this a little bit is to find somebody trusted that you can do it with. It's important to not dig too deeply into past traumas or things like that unless you have a solid support around you like a therapist, any mental health professional, an energy worker or people like that to help guide you through it so you don't get too deep into things that you are not prepared to handle or heal.Brielle: Absolutely. That's what I do as well through the lens of breathwork and somatic coaching. Julie: So where can people find you?Brielle: Yeah, it's definitely not something I recommend doing on your own. Have somebody to hold that space for you who knows what they're doing. People can find me on Instagram. It's just my name at Brielle Brasil. Brasil is with an S. You can reach out through there, and that's where I'll be.Julie: Perfect. We'll link that information in the show notes for anybody who wants to go give her a follow as well.All right, well thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.Brielle: Thank you so much. Julie: It's so cool to hear your story and your journey and your process. Thanks for being here. Brielle: Awesome. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. It was an honor.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to be joined today by our friend, Ali Levine. You will instantly feel her bright energy as she shares her awesome VBAC story with us.A celebrity stylist and TV personality, Ali is no stranger to being in the limelight. With her first pregnancy, she had glamorous photoshoots, went to flashy events, and made a dreamy birth plan. When the natural water birth of her dreams quickly turned into a traumatic and invasive C-section, Ali was left confused, disappointed, and depressed. Ali drastically changed her approach to birth with her second pregnancy. Once she began researching VBAC, Ali was determined, intentional, and never looked back.Ali's VBAC journey is one of a life-changing, spiritual awakening that we absolutely love and know you will love too. You can also listen to Ali's HBAC story on Episode 264!Additional linksAli's Podcast: Everything with Ali Levine How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and we are so excited. We have been chitchatting with Ali today and she has a really amazing birth story to tell. We cannot wait for you to hear it. I am sitting here in my dentist's parking lot. I literally just got done getting a filling. I had to rush out so that I could be on the call to listen to Ali's story today. And so before we do that, Meagan is going to go ahead and give us a Review of the Week.Meagan: Yes, I am. Oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat. Ali is so fun. We have just been talking to her for like, five minutes and I am just already giddy to hear her story. She has got such a fun, live personality to her. It's going to be awesome. This review is from jovannaf1 and in parentheses, it says “Germany.” So, I am wondering if she is either in Germany or her name is German.Julie: Ooh, that would be fun.Meagan: I know, right? Her title is “Love it.” This is from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Thank you so much for spreading such an important message, ladies. I am currently pregnant with my third child and your podcast has given me so much help and resources to know that VBA2C is possible. I find women's stories so inspiring. Thank you.”And we want to thank you for leaving that awesome review and thank all of you who are listening and support us along this journey. This podcast has been absolutely so much fun. We are so excited to be able to continue offering all of the stories and continue to get submissions. We get submissions all the time and it is always just so awesome to read them even if they are not all shared. We read every single one. They are all incredible. So, thank you, thank you, thank you and if you haven't already, please drop us a review. It means the world to us and we will read it on a podcast one day.Julie: Do you know what is so funny? My mom, I don't even think she knows what a podcast is still. It is so funny because sometimes when we are chatting, I will say, “You know, Mom? Look. Look at these reviews. See? I am actually helping people with what I do. I am really making a difference.” She looks at me and she smiles and she is like, “I know you are.” I am like, “No but really, Mom. Look at all my reviews!”It's just so fun. We really do love them and thank you guys for helping my mom know that I am actually helping people.Meagan: Okay, so we are going to jump into this episode because like I said, you guys are in for a treat. You're going to notice right off the bat, Ali is just such a fun person to listen to. She has had a VBAC and we just need to give her a little introduction if you would not mind, Ali. First of all, can I just tell you? Maybe you've heard this before. This is not VBAC-related. This is in regards to your Instagram page. I don't know why. So, it is Ali Levine and I always read it like “Avril Lavigne” every single time. When you started to contact us, I was like, “Avril Lavigne is contacting us?!”Julie: “He was a skater boy. She said, ‘See you later boy.'”Meagan: I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, it is not Avril Lavigne. It is Ali Levine and, is it LaVINE or LaVEEN?Ali: No, it's LaVEEN. It is so funny because I have had this said to me several times. People will be like, “So, do you know her?” I am like, “I think she is a distant cousin.” Same with Adam. You know what I mean? It's so funny. I have actually styled Adam back in the day when I was styling different celebrities. It is just so funny when people say that to me because I crack up. So, yes, no. I am not Avril Lavigne, but I bring the same kind of flavor, I think, as she does.Meagan: You are so awesome. Yeah, it is just so funny. It is just how it reads. It just automatically goes to Avril Lavigne in my mind, but you are so awesome. We think you are awesome. And, yeah. As you were saying, you are a celebrity stylist, which, how cool is that? Motherhood, fashion, lifestyle expert, and TV personality. I mean, you are going to hear it coming out right here. You are going to see it on her Instagram page. If you haven't, go right now. It is @alilevinedesign. So, it is @alilevinedesign. Go check her out. It is super fun. I think you actually have a couple, like Everything with Ali Levine, right? Like, you have a couple of pages.Ali: Yes, that's my podcast.Meagan: That's your podcast.Ali: Everything with Ali Levine is my podcast, yes.Meagan: Yes. Ali Levine. So, go listen to her. It is just so fun. So, okay. I am just going to read your bio. Is that okay?Ali: Whatever you want.Meagan: Whatever I want, all right. So it says, “Ali Levine believes that no matter where you roam, from the laundry room to the red carpet, authenticity is your superpower and confidence is your best accessory.”I love that. The week your podcast goes on, we need to make a little word blurb and put that and put your name in that. It's amazing.Julie: I can make a shirt. I want to make a shirt.Meagan: Do it. Let's do it. “The New York-hotshot-turned-Hollywood style maven delivers a real, raw look at her own motherhood journey amid the treasures she's uncovered in the universal search for authenticity, spiritual wholeness, and happiness.”Seriously, so excited to have you. I know that you have two beautiful daughters. We are excited to hear about both of their births. So, before I take up all the time ranting and raving about how awesome you are, let's let everyone hear about how awesome you are from you and your awesome story.Ali: Aw. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we started recording-- truly, I am so honored to be here tonight. I listen to you guys literally every day still, now. I was listening my entire pregnancy. My doula, Stacey, has given your podcast to so many different clients when she is like, “Hey, this client is struggling. What should I have them listen to?” And I am like, “Have them listen to The VBAC Link.” You guys have been such a godsend, truly. Especially during the pandemic, and everything that was going on with my birth, and plans changing every day, the only solid piece I had was with you guys. I literally had you in my ear as much as humanly possible to keep putting the intention that I was going to get my VBAC and I did with my second daughter. It was so freaking magical and healing. It makes me cry still.Meagan: Well, I love it because one of the things that I feel sometimes weird about even though it's my own podcast is, I still go back and listen to all the stories. I am not having babies anymore. I am not preparing for a VBAC, but all of these stories are just so inspiring. And honestly, they help me because I can send these to my clients. So many of these are powerful and educational for my own clients, so I am excited to hear that both you and your doula are still with us. You're still hanging out with us even though you rocked your VBAC and, yeah. We are just so excited that you are with us.Ali: Well, thank you. I agree with you completely and if there is anything I have learned from my social media and my own podcast, it is that beautiful authenticity, that sharing of that real and rawness, and being able to be vulnerable and share all of that. Not only is it so healing and beautiful for the individual, but it is so empowering for the other women listening and for the moms that are going through it. It is like, we are all there for each other and in that sense, we are all really going for our VBAC and when you get to hear these other stories-- like, during my pregnancy, I remember finding you guys randomly when I was searching for VBAC support and I was listening. I just started falling in love with the stories and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I could picture myself in that position. Oh my gosh.” And to feel like I could do it, it was such an empowering feeling. So, kudos to you guys, truly, for this show.Meagan: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It has been so rewarding. It truly has.Ali: That's amazing.Julie: Yeah, thank you. It is fun to come full circle, where we have people who were listening to the podcast and are on the podcast. I just feel like it is really cool when you were listening to the stories, and you were getting inspired by the stories, and then you get to share your story now and inspire other people. Then, we have this domino effect where people are listening to the podcast, and then sharing their stories, and then others are listening to their stories and then sharing their stories. It is just this really cool community and platform that we have built. It just makes me really happy.Ali: No, I love it. And you can hear that with you guys. Like, truly. Every time you listen, you hear that happiness and how much you guys celebrate everyone who is on and their stories and it is like-- something that I have learned with my second daughter is, birth is truly beautiful. It is something that I honestly with my first, especially after having quite a traumatic C-section, I really was in a fear-based place. I am so grateful that I switched from that fear to that love, and that transformation, and all that because it really is. As intense as it can be, the more you can be intentional, the more you can empower yourself, no matter what the circumstance, it is transformational and it is life-changing and so many ways. Not just in, of course, the fact that you give birth, but in my opinion, you are reborn. There is a spiritual awakening, at least for myself. It has just been so magical for me to get to really, really dive into it. And so, I am excited to share it with you guys.Meagan: Well, we are excited to hear it.Ali: All right, so going back to Amelia. When I got pregnant-- we talked about the fact that I am a celebrity stylist and I do a lot with television and Hollywood and all of that. And so, when I got pregnant, I had just come off of being on a show on Bravo, so people nationally knew my pregnancy. A lot more eyeballs were watching my pregnancy than I expected them to be and watching my journey, which was really amazing and cool, but also a lot of pressure at the same time.I really didn't realize how much it played into my actual pregnancy and birth. When I was in the midst of thinking about what I wanted to have for a birth plan, I was of course very much in the mindset of like, “I really want to have a natural birth, and I want to have a tub birth, and I want it to be beautiful, and I want flowers, and I want this, and I want that.” I am a more natural person in general in how I like to do things. I like to seek out natural options before I go to something else. And so for me, it felt like it really aligned and it was what I wanted to do.I honestly didn't really do my research or homework into what that looked like. I got a midwife. I got a doula, but I didn't do research beyond that. I didn't really look into what it potentially could be. It was more just like I made sure I had my team and I made sure I had a backup doctor with that team in case things didn't go that way just to make sure I was safe, and that was it. I didn't really do much research I guess I would say.And so, once it came time for me when I went into labor-- First off, I will share that I was getting really fed up with everybody asking me when I was going to pop when I was going to have the baby. My parents were sitting and looking at me like this balloon that was going to pop and I am like, “Oh my gosh. It is okay. I am fine. They checked. The baby is fine. I am fine.” But every two seconds it was like, “Why haven't you gone into labor? How come she hasn't come yet?” I was like, “I don't know.” It was a lot of pressure, honestly. I got so fed up at around-- I think it was at 40 weeks and I said to my husband, “I can't deal anymore. If one more person asks me, I am going to lose it.” So, I took castor oil, which I don't advise.Meagan: I did that with my first birth too.Ali: Did you? Okay.Meagan: Yes, and everyone was asking me the same questions. I had one coworker who was like, “Do I need to get you a wheelbarrow to wheel you around the office?” I am like, “Shut up.”Ali: Right. Nobody wants to hear that. It is funny for a minute and then you are like, “Please, just let me be because clearly, I am uncomfortable, and I am trying to be at peace with this, and I am trying to allow my baby to come when they are supposed to come,” which, you know. It is easier said than done. And then you're sitting there and they are like, “Well, you haven't popped yet.” My mom was like, “Well, I had you and they had to induce me. Well, what if that is what you need? What is going on?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh. Let's just leave all of the pressures off of me please and let my body do its thing.” I couldn't deal.So, I took castor oil. It did definitely jumpstart something because all of a sudden, five hours later, my water broke and I was going into labor. But I went into pre-labor and pre-contractions because of the castor oil. And so, we think that now, obviously in hindsight, that it probably pushed her too fast and she wasn't ready. Because first off, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I went into my birth center to my midwife and I wasn't really dilated past even a 3, and so she sent me home and was like, “You know, go home and go to sleep. Try to do this and try to do that.” Of course, I couldn't do any of those things. I was losing it at home trying to stay calm and wait for her to come. We went back to my birth center and then I was finally progressing a little bit more. I still wasn't active, but she took me because I think she felt bad that I was struggling.And so, we go to my midwife's birth center and we are there. Hours of really hardcore, manual, full-blown natural labor, really doing the work. Squatting, on the toilet, on the ball, in the shower, in the bed, on all fours, just constant, constant, and it was a good day of full-blown movement trying to get my body to do what I needed to do, and progress, and make things happen.I finally started getting too active and she was like, “All right. Let's transition you to the tub so that we can get you ready and get you comfortable if that's where you want to be. I got in the tub and I immediately felt super sick, and super overwhelmed, and dehydrated, and also nauseous. I threw up. She was like, “All right. Let's get you out.” So, I got back on the ball. I got back on the toilet and I felt awful.So then, they lowered the water in the tub and everything. My doula was putting a washcloth on me, and essential oils, and trying to calm me. I could feel that I just felt off. We went back into the tub because I told her that I really wanted to give birth there and so she was like, “All right. Let's breathe, and take our time, and see where we are.” At that point, I was in the tub and I was almost at 30 hours of being in labor. She was like, “You know, you are only at the beginning of active labor. I think I was technically at 6-6.5, something like that. I wasn't fully progressing. She was getting concerned that things weren't really fully progressing and I was really losing my stamina and my strength because I had been pushing and moving for so long.She was like, “Let's talk about interventions.” Of course, being someone who did want natural and had a “birth plan” and all that, I wanted nothing to do with that. I was like, “No, no, no. I want to just stay here. Let me just progress. Leave it alone.” She stepped out of the room, my midwife, and made a phone call to the backup doctor at the hospital to let him know what she was thinking. I guess, of course, they advised each other that I should go in. And so, they got me out of the tub. That was a whole scene in itself. That could have been on a freaking reality show. It was like, getting me out, my parents are in the waiting room. We asked them not to be there, and they're pacing, and they're flipping, and everything is a mess. Everyone is flipping out. “Am I okay? What is happening?” It was just so much pressure.I get into my husband's truck. I am fine. I am in active labor, but I am totally fine. Baby is safe and I am fine. We drive over to the hospital. I get there and they check me in and I get to my room. They checked me and they were like, “All right. You progressed a little bit more, but she is stuck in the birth canal at this point. So we are going to give you some Pitocin to ramp things up and try to move her.” They put me on-- I think it was 15, I think, is the highest you can be? I didn't go from a small amount. It was like literally, they cranked me up and I went from full-blown natural-- it was awful. I went from full-blown natural at the birth center in the dark with my music, with my oils, all of that to bright lights, fluorescent, hospital, screaming, panic, everybody in your shit if you will. It was just crazy and then it was like oh, and then this Pitocin that was cranked to no end. I couldn't handle it. I immediately was like, “Oh my gosh. I can't breathe. I feel uncomfortable.” I'm like, crying. I was really struggling. So then they were like, “All right. Well, let's give her an epidural.” They cranked that all the way up. I went from feeling like I couldn't handle it to I couldn't feel anything and then I felt super sick.I threw up again. I just felt awful. I just remember in that moment feeling so down and feeling like I failed at what I was trying to do. I remember even now, that heavy moment of, “What just happened? Why am I here? What is all of this? This is nothing of what I wanted. I was so overwhelmed.” And so fast forward, I got to 40 hours. We spent 10 more hours at the hospital. We got to 40 hours. My doctor came in and was like, “All right. Well, at least you have progressed now to basically complete. We are going to give this a go and have you really push and make this happen.” I am like, “Okay.” And so I am pushing, but I really couldn't feel it to be honest. The epidural, they said, was supposed to wear off, but it was like I really could not-- I just could not feel it.They were like, “Push. Push. Push.” I am pushing. I am pushing. They are like, “Push harder.” I am pushing as much as I could. She comes down. I obviously, really couldn't see her, but everybody else could and they were like, “But then she shot back up in the back birth canal,” which I obviously didn't even know was a thing. And so, she shot down, and then she shot back up. Then they were like, “All right. We are going to go again.” She shot down again. He went to grab her and she shot back up. I just remember my doctor looking at me and being like, “Okay. We are going to take a break and then I will be back.”He went and actually said to me, “I am going to go get dinner and then come back.” At first, I was like, “Oh, that is so rude,” but my doula and midwife advised me because they were still there with me. They advised me that the reason he did that was to buy me more time because if he wasn't present technically there shouldn't have had me had a baby without him unless it was an emergency.So they were like, “He is buying you time.” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn't realize at that time that there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made. What are we going to do? What are we going to keep trying? Are we going to do something else? C-section hadn't even been in my mind because I hadn't even been talked to about a C-section, prepped around a C-section, like nothing. So I was not thinking that at all. I was just thinking, “We are just going to wait longer. I am going to rest and we are going to go again.” Everybody leaves the room. My husband sits with me and he turns to me. We were at almost 42 hours at this point. He looks at me and he goes, “Don't you want to meet her now?” I started bawling. I am like, “Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Of course, I want to meet her now, but I have done so much work. I want things to go the way I want them to go. They weren't already going the way I wanted them to go when we were at the birth center.”He's like, “I know, but you are so tired. You have been such a warrior. Don't you just want to meet her and let yourself rest? We will have her.” Of course, I burst into tears and I was just like, “Fine, I guess.” I just let go. I remember being so upset and feeling so defeated in that moment because I got to those 42 hours and I had gotten to basically complete. So much had played out and I was convinced that “Okay. At least I was going to have her vaginally in a hospital.” And then it was just like, “Nope.” I get rolled Into the OR and have my C-section. Thank God, it was so fast. It was probably not even 10 minutes. They were really, really quick and she was right there. I have to say that they did an amazing job and I was so grateful. But it was just so not obviously what I envisioned or imagined. I just remember after getting back in the room and the initial shock and then putting me with her and everything, I just remember feeling like, “Oh my god, I am so happy to have her in my arms,” but I just felt like I had failed and my body had failed.It was such a debilitating feeling. I felt so numb in me, even though I was so blissfully happy about her. It was like a wild rollercoaster of emotions, you know? Because I was so happy to have her and so excited to finally hold my baby, but at the same time, I was almost dead inside. Like, what happened? Why did things play out like that? What is that? Do you know?For those that have followed my story, you know shortly after having my first daughter, I had pretty heavy postpartum depression. I do believe a lot of my birth played into that. When I got pregnant again with Arley, I really made the intention of, “I really don't want to go through that again if I don't have to. I really want to be smart about doing my research this time around my birth. What can I do to prepare my body? How can I be more intentional internally and not externally?” Because I felt like with Amelia-- again, I was a new mom. I had no idea what I was getting into, so to me, it was like, “Oh, you just give birth. No big deal. Everybody does it.” I didn't prep my body. I didn't do anything. The only thing I did was take maternity photoshoots that were glamorous. I just did all of the checkboxes of the things in the external world and all the glam. With Arley, I was like, “No.” I am going to be so intentional about what I am going to do, what I need to do, and do my research and talk to my birth communities around me now that I know them from sharing my experience and everything with Amelia.Luckily, I had so many incredible people around me who advised me to get a chiropractor right when I got pregnant to get my body aligned. So I found a chiropractor who specialized in VBACs and aligned with her right at three weeks when I was pregnant. I stayed with her my entire pregnancy. I found people who could do labor stimulation massage for later in the game and a doula that had also been a part of VBACs. Just all of these different entities that I didn't realize were so important. And then most importantly, when I got pregnant with Arley, I went to my regular prenatal doctor, and the first thing she says to me after “Congratulations” is, “Okay, now let's schedule your C-section.” I looked at her and I said, “Whoa. First off, I am just swallowing the fact that I am pregnant again. Secondly, I don't want to do a C-section.” She was like, “Well since you already had one, I am advising you to have one.”I was like, “Well, with all due respect, I know that I can have a VBAC.” She was like, “Well, I really don't advise it. I really think you should have a C-section.”Julie: Wow.Ali: Isn't that wild? That was my reaction. Julie: Like, right off the bat, even. Not even discussing anything.Ali: Nope. No discussion. It was like, “I know better. Here is this information.” Gave me a folder, the whole nine yards of my risks, the whole thing, the whole fear-mongering. Thank God I had so many people around me in the birth community from Amelia that they had all told me that just wasn't true and that the success rate was way higher than people realize and discuss. It was funny because I actually learned about VBACs when I was on Berlin's podcast. I'm spacing on his name. Dr. Berlin.Meagan: Elliot? Elliot Berlin?Ali: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so, I was on his podcast and he wanted to share my birth story with Amelia. After I was on it, he turned to me and he goes, “You know, you could still have another baby vaginally.” I was like, “No, I can't.” He was like, “Yeah, you can.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “It's called a VBAC. They happen all the time.” He was like, “It has nothing to do with the way--” and this and that. It was like this reality of what had been told to me and preached to me all of a sudden just burst in front of me. It was like, “Wait. Unlearn everything you were just told and pay attention. Zoom in to what you're being told now and learn.” And so, I did. Once I got pregnant with Arley, I knew I wanted to at least attempt a VBAC and get myself aligned body-wise, intentionally, mind-wise, soul, everything to do that. Once that doctor said that to me, I was like, “Well, I am sorry but I am not going to stay with you because you are not for me if you are not going to at least try to let me have a VBAC.” And so, I parted ways with her. I was so grateful she showed me her true colors right from the beginning because I know some doctors can bait and switch from what I have heard. She let me know right from the beginning and so then I started reaching out to different doulas and people to give me references. I landed on Dr. Brock who is in Los Angeles who is literally known as “The VBAC King”. You guys will appreciate that.That's literally what people call him. “The VBAC King”.Julie: I want to know more about The VBAC King, but it's okay.Ali: Totally fine. It's all good. So actually, it is funny that you guys bring up Elliot because Elliot and he have actually worked together in several births. Because a lot of people in LA go to him, if a baby is breech, they go to Dr. Brock because he is the only doctor known in Los Angeles to turn a breech baby. He is amazing. And so, I went to him. I asked for a referral to go see him because he is really hard to get into. I sit with him and I am twiddling my thumbs when he comes in. I am pregnant and he is like, “What is going on with you? Why are you so nervous?” I remember looking at him and I said quietly to him, “I want to discuss a VBAC.” He is like, “What?” “I want to discuss having a VBAC.” And he is like, “What is there to discuss?” He was like, “I did three this morning. What is the problem?”Meagan: Oh my gosh! Yeah.Julie: Best feeling ever.Ali: It was the best feeling ever. I looked at him and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that's it?” Because I felt so shamed and wronged with that other doctor. And so, when he was so open to me and he was just like, “Yeah.” The nurse was so funny that was in there. She was taking my stats and she was like, “He does them literally every day and sometimes three times. It is not a big deal.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.”He was like, “Yeah. We will just monitor you. We are going to check your scar and make sure everything is together. As long as everything looks good, we will plan to do it, and if things down the road change, we will have a conversation.” He was like, “But I don't see why not. You look like a great VBAC candidate.” He was all for it day one. I was so grateful that he was so supportive and his team and everything. And so fast forward, he checked my scars several times and everything looked good, thank God. Baby was growing great and everything was happening. We get to when the pandemic hits. The world changes. I went from, “Okay, you can't have your doula” to “Now, you can't have your husband at the hospital.” It was becoming really intense for me because here I am, I really want to go for my VBAC and I want to have my support system, and now I'm not going to even have anybody. How is this going to work? Am I going to be able to have my VBAC? I am not going to lie, I was in a lot of fight-or-flight mode. I started researching home birth and HBACs at home. I started really doing research and talking to midwives and other people who were home doctors in case my husband couldn't be with me. Because to me, it was one thing not to have Stacey, my doula, but it was another not to have my husband. I just felt like he had been through so much with me through Amelia that I couldn't imagine not having him with Arley. Thank God, I think Arley knew. She held on because she literally came right at 42 weeks and they had just opened the hospitals back up a week before. And so, my husband was allowed to come and be with me. I really felt like she held out for him. But it was funny the week before, actually a week and a half probably before, Dr. Brock, as great as he was, he is still a doctor. Near the end, especially with the pandemic and everything, he was just like, “Well, you know, you're getting close and you still haven't gone into labor. Maybe we should just induce.”I was like, “No. I don't want to. I really want to give my body a shot.” He kept pushing me. He was like, “Well, let's do a sweep. Let's do this. Let's do that.” I finally got a sweep a week before. Nothing happened. It was just painful for me. He was like, “All right.” We did another sweep a few days later and nothing was happening. He was like, “Let me just induce you. Let me just--” and I was like, “Dr. Brock. With all due respect, you have been so supportive of me through this whole experience. Please, just let me get to the final mark, and if things don't happen then, then fine. We will do it.” I think it was maybe four or five days before and he kind of, not went back on his word, but I think he had moments because all of this was going on with the pandemic. He was just like, “Look.” He was like, “I am going to schedule the induction. It is going to be tomorrow,” and this and that. I remember leaving there and I felt really powerless. I was really upset and I came home. It was my eight-year anniversary with my husband. I turned to him and I was like, “I don't want to do it. I don't want to go in tomorrow.” He was like, “All right. Let's talk through it.”He is very logical and he was like, “Let's talk through it. What's going on? Why don't you want to?” I just told him, I was like, “It just doesn't feel right. I have worked so hard to be so intentional around this birth from my chiropractor to finding a supportive doctor, to the right doula, to even different workouts, meditation, The VBAC Link podcast, just all kinds of things that I really surrounded myself with material-wise and tool-wise.” So I was like, “It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't align.”He was like, “All right. Well, if you feel that way, then don't go.” I called my doula and she was like, “Look. At the end of the day, you would be your own advocate. Everything is good with you and the baby. They run tests. Everything is cool. So at this point, it is really just a waiting game. So if you really don't want to, then you voice that. You call and you cancel and you cancel the induction.” I remember calling Cedars-Sinai and canceling. I called and they were like, “Oh, we don't even have your name on the list.” I was like, “Oh.” They were like, “But we will let Dr. Brock know.” It was funny because it was such a build-up to call. I felt like I was being a bad kid in school. So I was so nervous to call and cancel. I was dancing in my room for hours to call. I finally called and they were like, “Oh, you're not even on the schedule.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Well, just let them know I am not coming.”The next day, I got a call from my doctor and Dr. Brock is like, “Come in. I want to do a nonstress test on you.” So I go in, everything is cool. He was like, “All right, so you pushed against me.” He was like, “Message received. You're not doing it.” I am like, “No. I am not.” And he is like, “All right.” He is like, “It is fine.” He is like, “Everything is good. Tests are good. I just thought you'd want to have her birthday. Don't you want to have her already?” I am like, “I do want her here, but I want her here on her terms. If there is anything I learned from my first birth, it's not about me. I don't want to do it on my terms.” He was like, “Okay, fine. It is fair.” So then he was like, “If you don't go--” because now, I was at the end of 41 weeks and 8 days or whatever. You know, when you get close to 42. He was like, “This weekend if you don't go, on Monday, we are going to schedule the induction.” I was like, “Fine. That is fair.”So that weekend came and it was Friday. I wasn't getting any kinds of signs of going into labor. I was getting a lot of that prodromal labor that you guys always talk about which is the start-and-go, and you actually contract, and you think you're in labor, but then it stalls out. That was happening for weeks to me. I was like, “What is this?” It kept happening and happening. That happened again on Friday and it just like-- nothing. My doula sent me to get acupuncture. I did that to stimulate things. That actually, I think, really helped. I did that Friday and I did that on Saturday. I went back-to-back and it really stimulated things and moved things around, I think, from what I could feel. My husband was also doing acupressure with my points at home that she had shown me.At this point, my doula had said to me, “Okay. In my opinion, I feel like there is something more to this than your body.” It reminded me of one episode, well, many episodes I listened to with you guys, but there was one specifically where you guys really hone in on fear releasing. She was like, “I really feel like there's something going on with you and we need to work through it.” So we did a recording of my birth story of Amelia‘s birth with her, just her and I recording everything, getting it out. She was like, “Okay. Now it is out. Let's process it. Let's release it. Wrap it up in a pretty bow and that's it. We are going to move past it.” I was like, “Okay.” We did that on Friday. And then, we did some more rebozo and this and that. We met up outside at a park and everything and talked things through. Saturday came and she was like, “All right. I know you are getting close and you are getting concerned.” She was like, “What else can we do to help you release this?” I was like, “I don't know. I am just so afraid of a C-section. I am so afraid of this. I am so afraid of that.” She was like, “All right.” She goes, “When you get home, you are going to write down--” And I remember learning this from you guys. She said, “You are going to write down what you told me you listened to on The VBAC Link, which was to write down your fears and release them.” She was like, “I want you to do that because I feel like there is more to this.” And so, I went back and listened to a bunch of your guys' episodes and I wrote down on pieces of paper all of the different things I was afraid of. Getting an induction, stalling out, getting a C-section, getting stuck in the birth canal, all of the things. Being on Pitocin, getting an epidural, all of the things I was truly afraid of and I burned each and every one of them. There was such a relief when I burned them. I felt it in my energy and in my body. I started crying. I just felt so good.So then, my husband and I took a walk with our toddler, Amelia. We went around the block and we were just talking and he started talking me through stuff. He was like, “What do you think it is?” I was like, “I don't know. I think I'm just afraid to wind up in another crazy, traumatic birth.” He was like, “Okay. And if God forbid, that happened, what is the worst thing? We come home. You heal. We have our second daughter. It is the four of us as a family. The overall things are fine and we have our girl.” This and that, you know, putting things into perspective for me. I was like, “Yeah, no. You are right.” He is a golfer, a really good golfer. And so, he was walking me through all the strategies for a big tournament and comparing it to getting ready for a birth of the mentality and this and that, but actually, it was really helpful for me. So we come home and we have dinner and he was like, “Let's hang out, and just stay up late, and have a good time.” So we have a little dance party with Amelia. We are playing music videos and just having a good time, dancing and laughing. And then, I go to lay down in bed. I turned on my essential oils and I do a little more acupressure. I say a little prayer. I got in bed and I put meditation in my ears and get the room really dark. I am meditating. I am like, “I am going to go into labor. Things are going to happen. Things are going to happen.” I wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night, nothing is happening. I am getting a little crushed. But I am like, “No. I am going to let it go. Let it go.”I started getting hungry and I was like, “I'm going to go downstairs for a snack.” It was probably around 1:30, maybe 2:00. I start walking down my stairs and I feel this cramp and I am like, “Ooh,” and then I feel it again. I am like, “Ooh.” I get down and I am like, “Ooh, ooh, ooh,” and I can't. I get down on my knees and I can't get up.Julie: I love that.Ali: I am like, “Oh, maybe I'm not going to have a snack.” And so, I crawled up my stairs and I'm like, “Oh, okay. Could this be?” I honestly didn't believe it because I had had so much prodromal labor. I had had so much start-and-go that it was like, “Oh, here we go again.” So I am just like, “Okay. I am just going to go lay back down.” I am crawling, but as I am crawling, it is getting more and more intense. More tightening and I am barely able to crawl. And so, I get up my stairs. I get in my room. My husband is sleeping and snoring. I am like, “Okay. I'm not going to wake him because I have told him so many times that this could be it and nothing is happening.” So I am like, “I am just going to chill.”So I call my doula. I could barely get the words out because I am in quite a bit of squeezing pain, feeling the surges, and she was like, “All right. Do me a favor. Draw your bathtub. Get in the tub. Put in a little bit of your oils and call me back. Let me just hear your breathing.” So I turned the tub on and I had this overwhelming feeling while I was sitting there in my room, just talking to myself of going into Amelia‘s room. I didn't know why. So I crawled into her room and I opened the door and crawl in. She is asleep. I crawl into her chair. I'm sitting there and I start bursting into tears. I am hysterical out of nowhere and I just start babbling and I am like, “I love you. I hope I can be a good mom when I am a mom of two. I have made such an amazing relationship between the two of us so far. I don't want to fail you.” I am just pouring my heart out. She is passed out. I am just crying and crying, just sharing my heart with her and my fear of being a mom of two. I don't want to let her down.And then I remember I said to her, “Okay. I think your baby sister is coming. So the next time I see you, she is going to be here.” I was hysterical. Then I crawl back out, crawled into my tub. I think this was maybe 2:30 or 3:00 at this point. I get in my tub and I call my doula. I start breathing and she was like, “All right. Let's do some meditation.” I had also done some HypnoBirthing between learning for Amelia's birth and then for Arley's birth. So I am doing HypnoBirthing in the tub. She is guiding me. My contractions were 11 minutes apart, so they weren't that close. So she was like, “Okay. We are just going to let you stay in the tub. Meditate. Stay in your zone. Let's see what happens.”Shortly after, not even an hour, she was like, “Okay. You are eight minutes. You're seven. Oh, okay.” She was like, “Okay, Ali. You need to wake Justin up. You are getting to be close to six minutes apart. You have got to get ready to go.” I was like, “Wait, what?” You know, because I was so in the zone at that point. I wasn't even listening to her count. I was so in my zone in the tub, in the darkness, meditating, really bringing the affirmations of having my VBAC and talking to Arley. I was just so in it, more so than I think I even realized I was. And so she was like, “You need to get out. You need to get up. You need to get to the hospital.” Justin, of course, doesn't know. My husband doesn't hear me. He is sleeping and snoring. I am screaming from the bathtub and he doesn't hear me. I'm like, “Babe. Babe! I am in labor. We have to go to the hospital.” He doesn't hear me, so my doula calls him and wakes him up. He is like, “What is going on?” She is like, “Ali is in labor. You have got to get ready to go.” He goes into the bathroom and of course, he is making fun of me as he usually does and his sarcasm. He is like, “Oh, I hear a ghost or something.” I am like, “Oh my god.” He literally is like, “Oooh. Ooooh. What is that noise? Ooooh.” I am like, “Ha, ha. That is so you.” I am like, “Come over here and squeeze my hands. I am losing my shit.” That is his personality, by the way. He gets me out. We are getting everything ready to go and getting everything in the truck to leave. My doula ended up coming down to make sure I was okay, but also because my friend was supposed to be here for Amelia had I gone into labor in the middle of the night, but wasn't picking up her phone because they probably just thought, “Oh, I am going to hear my phone go off.” And so, my doula came rushing out so that we could leave so that somebody could watch her since we couldn't bring her, especially with COVID and everything.She comes and she sees me off. I get in the truck and I am in full-blown active labor. I am transitioning. I am shaking. I'm convulsing. I am screaming. I'm trying to stay zen. I am screaming while I am meditating. This whole thing in his truck. We arrive there. I am screaming when we get out of his truck. They pull up. They bring the wheelchair. I won't forget. They put me in a wheelchair and they were shoving this mask in my face. I am screaming through the mask. I am trying to rip the mask off because I'm screaming. It was a whole thing.I get into the room. They get me in and my doula was immediately on my FaceTime. Stacey was like, “Okay.” Thank God for her. She was like, “Turn the lights down. Let's get it to be zen for her again. Get her out of the bright lights. Let's calm things down. Justin put out her crystals. Let's get her intention cards up. Get the little lights up.” Stacey is orchestrating everything from FaceTime. Justin is getting everything together and I am sitting there and breathing through. I am still natural at this point. I am just breathing through my contractions as much as I can and screaming at all of that. They checked me and I am 6.5. They're like, “All right. Well, you're definitely active and ready to go. You are progressing, so we are going to let you progress.” I think I got to almost a 7, or out of 7, and I really was having a hard time. I was really having a hard time breathing. It was getting really intense. Stacey was like, “Look. If you want to get an epidural, just get the epidural.”But, I had so much fear around getting an epidural because of Amelia‘s birth. I was like, “I don't want to. I am too afraid. I don't want to get stuck. Let me just keep going.” But I wasn't fully progressing because I was struggling. I was like, “Okay. I'm going to get an epidural.” Luckily at Cedars-- I know some hospitals don't have this, but Cedars does. I had been advised by a couple of other doulas to get a walking epidural if I could, even though I wouldn't be walking anywhere, obviously, because of the world, but I could walk in my room. And so, I got a walking epidural and for me, that was just enough to take the edge off, but not enough to numb where I could walk around and I could be on the ball. I could do hip exercises on the side of the bed. I could get on all fours. I could keep switching positions. Even when I was in the bed, I had a peanut ball being switched between my legs. I was moving constantly. I was never still. I think that was a really big game changer and helpful for me when it came to progressing because shortly after, I was at complete.We arrived at the hospital around 6:00 a.m. and by noon, I was complete. It was pretty fast for me compared to Amelia. It was like, “Oh, wow. This is happening. I have got to complete.” The doctor comes in. Dr. Brock is like, “All right. You are complete, but you are not--” I forget the stations when you are at the last station, but you're not fully there where the baby can come out. What is that called?Julie: Yeah, like +2 or +3 station.Meagan: Yeah, or even +4.Ali: Yes. Yeah, whatever it was, like the lowest one. I was almost there, but I wasn't there yet. He had said that. I was like, “Oh, okay.” He was like, “But don't worry. We are going to figure out getting her down. Let's get you to move more. Let's do some more pushing. Let's do this.” You know, I didn't realize that because of Amelia‘s birth, even though the labor was so intense with her, my body remembered that, which is wild. The muscle memory of that.I hadn't really fully pushed with Amelia, so it was pushing like a new mom, which I didn't expect to go through. I pushed for 2.5 hours after we had been told I was ready to go and was complete. I was really working, working. I had the squat bar. I was pushing. I was on the ground. I was on all fours. I was doing everything possible to move her, and keep going, and move her down and everything.She was just right there, but just wasn't happening and then I spiked a fever. Dr. Brock came in and he was like, “Okay. I was all for everything you were doing, but now you spiked a fever. I am concerned for you and the baby. I am sure everything is fine, but I don't want to take any chances, so these are the last pushes and then we are going to have to figure something out because I am not going to let you go longer because of the fever.” Of course, they had given me medication at this point to bring the fever down.And so, he had turned to me and he was like, “All right. We are going to do a vacuum to try and help you get her out. Once I get the vacuum, you are going to have to push with all your might. It is just going to be to assist and then you're going to have to push her out.” He was like, “When I tell you to push, I mean you'd better push with every single thing in you and push until you can't breathe.” I was like “Oh, okay.” I remember being in the bed, and looking at Justin, and even reflecting on it myself, and being like, “Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I got this far and here we are again. I am freaking going to have a C-section.” I was really starting to go into fight-or-flight. I was getting really, really upset. My doula was trying to calm me over FaceTime. She was like, “It's okay. We are still in control. It's okay. Breathe. Just allow things to play,” and I am in total panic at this point. I looked at Justin and I said, “Can I have my earbuds please?” I put them in my ear. I turned on one of my fear-releasing meditations. I shut my eyes. I remember praying really, really hard and just being really intentional. Like, “I can make this happen. This is going to happen. I can do this. Come on, Ali. You can do this.”Before I knew it, it was like, “Push.” I pushed so hard and the next thing I knew, there she was on my chest, screaming. I was hysterically crying. I couldn't even believe that she was there. I honestly didn't even feel her fully come out because everything was happening. It was so wild. I remember them putting her on my chest and I was bawling because I was like, “Oh my god, I did it. Oh my god. Oh my god. She's here. Oh my god.” It was the most surreal experience and so healing in that moment for me of just being like, “Holy crap. I did it. My body did it.” Even now, I get choked up because I still can't believe it happened.Meagan: I'm sure in that whole moment there was just such that rush.Julie: Yeah, wild.Meagan: Yeah, okay. I have to do this right now. And then, boom. You did it.Julie: Yeah. It sounds like she came so fast when it was time.Ali: Yeah, well once he put the vacuum on and was like, “Okay, push.” He gave me that bar--Meagan: The assistance, yes.Ali: Yeah, the assistance and gave me that bar and was like, “Push down.” I just remember I pushed with everything in me. I pushed and holy crap. She was here. She was 9 pounds, 3 ounces, by the way.Meagan: Yeah, girl!Ali: Amelia was 8 pounds, 7 ounces and I thought that was big. Arley was 23.5 inches long so it was like, oh my gosh. I couldn't believe that I got her out. It was truly amazing to me. It was so empowering. It was like, “Holy crap. My body did it.” It was so amazing. After having her on my chest and holding her, I was just bawling. I just couldn't even believe it happened.Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was just such an amazing moment. It sounds like she just needed to come into that pubic bone and then she was there. Oh, well congratulations.Ali: Thank you.Meagan: So awesome.Ali: It was so magical. It really was. I just felt so much support around me through my whole pregnancy. It's funny you say the pubic bone too because my chiropractor-- she kept adjusting me. Even the day before I went into labor, she adjusted me. She kept adjusting me and adjusting my hips and doing this, and my sciatica and everything to make sure I was as aligned as possible. But I think in a way it was kind of like me being tested, like how bad do you want this thing? Because when you guys were saying “the rush”, I felt like I could have either gone into fight-or-flight and I could have been like, “Oh my gosh,” in panic and allowed myself to not have that release that you guys talk about all the time, but I think because I did release, and I did allow her to come, and I got really intentional and listened to the fear releasing in my ears, I think it was all divine. And there she was.Julie: Yeah. It's incredible what can happen when you have that release of emotions. Fear in the birth space is real and it can really hold you up if you let it.Ali: Mhmm, yeah. You're right.Meagan: So awesome. Now, she is just crawling around and being such a big girl.Julie: Oh, such a fun age.Ali: It is wild how fast. I feel like I just had her and I am like, “Oh my gosh, she is already crawling everywhere.” I literally turn around and she is down the hallway and I am like, “Oh, hey girlfriend.” It is crazy.Julie: Wow.Ali: You know, but in a wild way, this whole thing with the pandemic and 2020, for me, is such a blessing because it has been such a healing time for me between my VBAC, and having the family time, and having my husband home to be there with me with my girls, and truly not experience postpartum depression. I am just so grateful for it.Julie: That's awesome. That is really cool. We are living in a really crazy world right now and whenever we hear incredible birth stories coming out of this pandemic, it warms my heart. I don't know. I could go off on five or six different tangents right now, but Meagan, what should we talk about? What should we talk about for an educational piece?Meagan: Well, I love that she talked about fear releasing and self-advocacy. One of the things that I love that your doula did-- so birth workers, listen up if you are listening. They sat and they recorded. I love that she was like, “We are going to wrap it up, and seal it with a bow, and send it off.” That is so cool. It is such a powerful way, just talking about it, and getting it out there, and hearing yourself say it, and then maybe even watching it, and then saying, “Okay. That is how I felt and this is how I feel. This is why I am moving on from this fear because of this.” And then of course moving on and doing the other activities. It is so powerful.I know I probably have talked about this until I'm blue in the face, but it really came down for me-- like, I had worked through so much and there was still stuff that I found in the very moment of labor that I didn't realize that I had worked through. It's just so, I don't know. It is just so crazy how you think you have worked through it, and then it comes up, and you are like, “Oh, wait. That didn't come up during my pregnancy,” and you have to work through it again. But if you have practiced and worked really, really hard processing during your pregnancy, then it won't be so foreign. That's the word that is coming to my mind and maybe that's the wrong word.Julie: Unfamiliar, maybe?Meagan: Yeah. It just won't be so unfamiliar and foreign in the moment to process. I know it would make processing during that time easier.Julie: Yeah. I agree, 100%. Gosh, I mean, Meagan and I have both seen the same thing with our individual doula clients and working with parents through our VBAC preparation course. I actually just had a one-on-one consult with somebody preparing for VBAC a couple of weeks ago. Most of the time when we get hung up, and when there are things holding us back, and we feel like something's not quite right, it is stemming from fear. When you can take out that fear, and write it out, and tear it up, and break it apart, and figure out where it is coming from, that is when you can really move past it in order to create a really, really clear birth space that is conducive to a nice, peaceful birth that is just happy and that you can look back on with really fond memories.Ali: Yeah. I love that. I think it is so well beautifully said and so true. You know, it is so crazy because again, when we were talking at the beginning of this podcast, with Amelia, it was obviously a normal world. I was at events and doing all of this glamorous stuff. I was doing maternity photoshoots and all of these things. And you know, fast forward to Arley and it was like, stuck at home and especially in California, very much locked down. You know, everything. It was so wild how different in that sense the world was, but yet, even in such a chaotic world, it really was such a peaceful birth. And then in such a normal world, Amelia was such a chaotic birth. So I just find that, like you were just saying, so telling when it comes to that fear and that processing of all of that and the actual intention around it. It really does, in my opinion, make such a difference. I have seen it in my own birth.Julie: Yeah. It absolutely does. Well, Ali, not Avril. It was so great to talk to you. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and chat about everything for hours. I feel like we are friends. I just love at the end of the episode, all these podcast episodes that we do where sometimes, it's really hard to say goodbye. It's like, “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.”Meagan: I know. It is so true. So true. We are like, “Wait. Can we hang out, like, tomorrow?”Ali: Right?Julie: Let's go to lunch. Where do you live again?Meagan: California.Ali: Yes, please. When we are open and normal, please do. I mean, I am so honored to be here. I truly love everything you guys are doing with your show and everything at The VBAC Link. I truly, like I said, still listen. I tell everyone to listen. I just think it is such an amazing space for women who need that kind of support. Especially women who really do want to have a VBAC and don't have those kinds of resources. I think that too many times we are told so much in birth, but especially with VBAC, “No,” and they put the fear around it from the beginning.I was so grateful that when that woman tried to really instill the fear in me that I knew better and that I was able to work past it because I feel for so many who just don't have that. That's why I was so grateful when I landed on The VBAC Link podcast because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Look at all of these amazing stories. I could be one of them too.” And like, holy crap. Here I am.Meagan: You are one of them.Julie: Full circle. I love it.Ali: Yes. Yes.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aisha's episode is full of wisdom and inspiration! With her first two births, Aisha worked so hard to deliver vaginally, but ultimately had two undesired Cesareans. She was told in the operating room that she had uterine dehiscence, was given a special scar, and should never try to deliver vaginally. But her intuition was telling her a different story. She dove into research. She found a community and listened to podcasts like The VBAC Link. She knew a VBA2C was possible, and she knew she had to try. Aisha's VBA2C journey involved interacting with supportive and very unsupportive providers, hiring a fantastic doula, being proactive with labor comfort measures, planning for the unexpected, staying firm in her desires, asynclitic positioning, and pushing her baby boy out in just 45 minutes with a nuchal hand!Aisha's WebsiteThe VBAC Link Blog: VBA2CNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It's The VBAC Link, and we have a VBA2C story coming your way. Have you ever wondered what VBA2C means? If you haven't noticed, in the VBAC world, there are a lot of acronyms. VBA2C is one of them. That means vaginal birth after two Cesareans, meaning that you have had two Cesareans and want to go for a vaginal birth. Big question, what are the chances of having a vaginal birth after two Cesareans? Is it possible? The answer is simply, yes. It is totally possible. Myself and Aisha are living proof today that it is possible. In fact, your chances of a successful VBA2C are similar to those of just a VBAC with one Cesarean. ACOG recommends that VBA2C is a safe option, so today, I want to quickly go over a little bit more instead of a review about some education on vaginal birth after two Cesareans and share a little bit more of our blog. Like I said, ACOG recommends that vaginal birth after two Cesareans is actually a safe option. They say, “It is reasonable to consider women with two previous low transverse Cesarean deliveries to be candidates for TOLAC.” Now, again, there's another one of those acronyms. TOLAC- trial of labor after a Cesarean. I know that is triggering for some. It is pretty much just the medical term of saying that you are having a trial of labor after a Cesarean, so try not to let it impact you too much. But, “for TOLAC and to counsel them based off of the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving a VBAC.” There are lots of things that people might go look through to see if you are eligible for a VBAC after two Cesareans. Now, I'm sure you have probably heard this before, but proven pelvis. If you haven't had a proven pelvis, meaning that your baby has come out vaginally before you've had a vaginal birth or a Cesarean– now when I say this, sometimes we have a vaginal birth, then we will have two Cesareans, and someone wants to go for a VBAC again, so they would be considered a proven pelvis or cervix to a medical staff. But if you haven't had a “proven pelvis”, I hope you guys can imagine my air quotes right now, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be considered as someone who should have a VBAC. It says in our blog, “More important to note, there is no mention of a requirement to have had that previous vaginal delivery.” I wanted to point out that it really is not a necessary thing. I hadn't had a vaginal birth before. My cervix also hadn't made it to 10 centimeters before, so just know that it is still possible. Quickly, there are things that you can do to reduce uterine rupture, and there are also things you can do to increase your chances of VBAC. Again, it's going to be in our blog. I'm going to send you over there after the episode so you can go and read more about it, but some of the things that you can do to minimize the risk of uterine rupture is staying away from induction. Now, can VBAC be induced? Yes, they can. Yes, yes, yes, yes, you can, so I don't want you to totally freak out right now. But, staying away from induction for VBAC is better than going to get induced. It does increase our chance of uterine rupture, and it does increase our chances of other things like interventions that are unnecessary. Unless it's absolutely necessary or totally desired, try to stay away from induction. Avoid augmentation of labor so things like Pitocin and other drugs to cause the uterus to contract more than it naturally would. Okay, let's see. Avoid providers who aggressively intervene or want to manage your labor or come at you with fearmongering tactics. You guys are going to hear some of that here, and honestly, I think it's a common thing with these stories. We are getting a lot of fearmongering here. Providers, if you are listening, knock it off. Goodness gracious, we do not need to add fear to something that has been looming over us because VBAC has such a bad rap in the world, and it's so scary. Again, air quotes, guys. Just stop with the fearmongering. Avoid providers who are going to build you up with things– I should say tear you down, but fill you up with things like, “Your baby is looking too big. I don't know. We should probably induce. I don't know if your baby is going to be able to come out because you are really small, and that baby is looking really big. Oh my gosh, you have to have an epidural. Oh my gosh, you have to have your baby by 39 weeks.” There are so many things. It's annoying. Okay, going back to avoiding rupture. Avoid or delay things like getting an epidural until at least the end if possible because we do know that sometimes when we get an epidural early in labor, it can bring things like interventions, and we are getting Pitocin that is too high and other things like that. There are so many other things here, you guys. I'm going to make sure that the link is in the show notes. I don't want to take too much of our time, so we can make sure that Aisha can share her beautiful VBAC after two Cesarean stories and all that she had done to lead up to this experience. You guys, it's a good one. Something that is very different about this episode is that she actually had a dehiscence with her second which in a lot of the studies and literature for rupture, a dehiscence is often confused or combined with uterine rupture.I really love that this is a different type of story here, so gear up and enjoy. All right, Aisha. Thank you again so much for being here. As we were talking about earlier, VBAC after two Cesareans is so highly requested in our community. So without further ado, I want to turn the time over to you. Aisha: Thank you so much for having me. This is surreal. I feel like this pushed me in some ways. It was a goal of mine. I'm like, “If I make it and do my VBAC after two Cesareans, I'm going to send my story to The VBAC Link.” Yeah. I've listened to you guys. It's been literally almost four years listening to you guys all of the time trying to visualize my birth after hearing other people's stories. It's such a blessing, and I'm honored to be here to be honest. Meagan: Well, thank you so much. Aisha: Of course. Yeah. I mean, if we start from the beginning with my whole birthing journey, I got pregnant in 2018. I really wanted to try out the whole natural route, so I went with a midwife here in Canada. It's covered by the government so whether you go to a midwife or OB/GYN, it's honestly the same thing. It depends on what type of care you want to have. I chose to go with the midwife, and I chose to give birth at a birthing center for my firstborn. Labor started. I never ended up giving birth naturally obviously. I ended up having a 60-hour labor. Yeah. After 60 hours, they declared me failure to progress, and I think my cervix was a bit swollen at that point. The baby had made the meconium in my tummy. Meagan: Oh, yeah. Stressing out is common. Babies poop sometimes, and it doesn't always mean an emergency or anything like that, but when it's happening and other things are happening–Aisha: Exactly. I think I started having a fever and other things like that. At that point, they came to see me. They were like, “Before things turn into an emergency, let's go and have a simple C-section.” I felt very defeated. I worked very hard for a natural birth. I did 40 of those 60 hours all-natural, but after seeing I wasn't progressing– when I was with my midwife, I was 2 centimeters after 40 hours, and at that point, I requested to be transferred to the hospital to get an epidural. When I got the epidural, it worked a little bit on half of my body, but I was having back labor. My baby was posterior, so it did not do much for those pains there. I can say in the moment, I was quite relieved to have the C-section, so everything could be over, but I know afterward, I know womanhood is not defined by how you birth your baby, but I think at that point because that's what I envisioned, I never envisioned a C-section ever in my life, and it affected me. It affected my self-esteem a little bit. Right after that, me being me, I'm such a planner and such a researcher. I researched to see if it's possible to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, and I discovered the whole VBAC world. I signed up in all of the Facebook groups that I could find about VBACs all around the world. I was reading stories. I discovered The VBAC Link at that point. I started listening to the podcast. I also requested, through my midwife, my notes to see what happened. Meagan: Your op reports. Yes. Aisha: I'm like, “Okay. I need to know why I had a Cesarean, why a Cesarean was made, etc.” I checked. I sat down with my midwife at six weeks postpartum. Honestly, it wasn't anything really. They just said it was failure to progress. I had dilated to a 7, and that was that. She was like, “Okay. You can come back when you get pregnant again. You need to wait 2 years or 18 months before you get pregnant again.” Meagan: Mhmm. That's very common.Aisha: That's what I did. I got pregnant when my firstborn, I think, was 15 months. I gave birth exactly two years later almost to the dot. That labor started. Everything was going great. I remember for that pregnancy, I tried to always sit leaning forward, doing all of those exercises because my baby was posterior. I wanted a good posture. I did all of the things. It was in winter here, and in winter, Canada is not the best. I wasn't walking as much and it was COVID too. It was the COVID lockdown. With my first, I was going to the mall a lot, but during the lockdown in 2021, all of the malls were closed. I wasn't going outside much, but I was doing rounds in my house going up and down the stairs and stuff like that. When labor started, I really tried to focus. I think I was doula-ing myself. I never got a doula, but I was doula-ing with all of my research what I knew to do. At some point, I felt like it was time to go to the midwife. I was going there. They checked me. I was at 2 centimeters again. After laboring for 15 hours, then I was a bit defeated. I was like, “No, the same story is going to happen twice.” I continued laboring there. At some point, the contractions were back-to-back with no breaks. At that point, I was like, “Let me be a smart girl and get the epidural again.” She checked me. I was at 3 centimeters. I wasn't progressing fast enough for me. I think I was just in too much pain. I wasn't getting any breaks.I went to the hospital. I think the car ride there did something because it was a 20-minute car ride from the birthing center to the hospital. I was 7 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa. You went from a 3 to a 7 in 20 minutes? Aisha: In 20 minutes. Then I was like, “Okay, it's happening.” I got there. My midwife had already called the hospital and sent my papers. The anesthesiologist was waiting for me. I got the epidural within 5 minutes. They checked me. I was at a 9. Yeah, it went really fast. I was like, “I'm getting this VBAC.” Everybody was excited. I was giggling and laughing. My midwife came in. We were waiting for the last little bit. They checked me. I was 9.5, but baby was stationed pretty high. They were like, “Okay, let's try to bring baby down.” They made me change positions, but as they were doing that, the baby's heart rate dropped. It wasn't picking back up. At that point, it turned into an emergency C-section. The doctor looked at me. She was like, “Your baby is in distress. We don't know why. Nothing is going on. Nothing is changing. We are bringing you to the OR and get baby out. We don't have a choice.” I was so sad. I was at 9.5. I was almost there, but it did not happen. When I was in the operating room, the doctor screamed to me, “Aisha, never do this again.” I'm like, “Why?” She never gave me any more explanation, so me being me, when I was done giving birth, I requested the notes again.Meagan: Hey, listen. This is what I would suggest for anybody and everybody who has had a C-section. Go get your notes. Go get your notes. Aisha: They give so much insight because nobody knows unless this is the only thing that remains with you. You don't have the people to talk to. I saw the notes. I saw that my C-section scar had started to open. I think they called it a dehiscence. Meagan: Dehiscence? It was past a window. It wasn't just stretched. It actually had dehissed. Aisha: Yes. My midwife was like, “Probably that's the reason why she told you to never do this again and not to go for a VBAC again because the uterus had started to open.” Because it had started to open, when she cut me up, it gave me a J-scar so my scar–Meagan: You have a special scar too. Aisha: I have a special scar too. At that point, I'm like, “Okay.” My midwife told me, “If you have a third baby, unfortunately here, we can only follow a VBAC after one Cesarean. We cannot follow a VBAC after two C-sections so you will have to go the OB/GYN route.” Then I got scared because I'm like, “My God, I'm going to have to go to the medical professionals. They're going to turn me down,” and stuff like that. Me being me, I contacted my own personal OB/GYN. I went to see her. I wasn't pregnant or nothing. I wasn't planned on being pregnant anytime soon, but I knew I wanted a third child. I went to him. I was like, “Listen. This is my story. This is my situation. I really want to try for a vaginal birth. I know it can happen.” I went on the Facebook groups again. I registered in all of the VBAC after multiple Cesareans. I went and checked VBAC special scars. I went into all of those groups. I saw it was possible. Women were doing it all over the world. I was like, “Why not me? My body is also capable. Plus, I got to 9.5. That means my body is working. I just had unfortunate circumstances.” That's what I thought. My doctor was like, “You know what? Get pregnant. Come back, and we'll talk about it.” She wasn't closed off to the idea. Fast forward, I got pregnant earlier in 2023. I lost that baby due to miscarriage. I got pregnant again in September. That was a surprise pregnancy. I wasn't really planning for it. When I got pregnant, I was like, “Okay, this is it. This is it. We're going to try to do everything we can to make it happen.” I know for the first 20 weeks, I also tried to relax and release. I felt like my body held so much tension, and I feel like that can hold up to birth. I was trying to go and deal with all of those traumas and things like that that I hadn't dealt with in my previous births. Meagan: Traumas, triggers, past experiences, the tension that is being harbored in our body. It's weird to think that, but really, we can harbor tension whether we relate to it as trauma or not, and it can really impact us. Aisha: It can really impact us. After my second birth, I had gone to pelvic floor therapy. I had been to that for a couple of months, then stopped 6 months prior to getting pregnant officially with my last baby. When I got pregnant, I went back to see my pelvic floor therapist. I'm like, “Listen. I'm pregnant. This is what we are planning. Right now, I just want to make sure that my muscles down there are okay. I want to do the exercises. I don't want to do too much, but just prep my body slowly and surely.” We did exercises. That was the first 20 weeks. The second 20 weeks, I'm like, “Okay. Now is the time to ask the questions.” I would see her every 6 weeks, and within those 6 weeks, every question that would come in my head, I would write in down in my notes and go and ask her the questions so she could answer. I asked her to review my op reports so I could have another opinion. I was asking her a lot of questions about VBAC after two Cesareans. I got that my doctor wasn't VBAC-friendly, but I think she's pro-women's choice. She goes with what you want, and she supports you wholeheartedly in your decisions. I remember asking her questions about VBACs after two C-sections. She kept telling me, “Aisha, I think you need to realize that new studies have shown that there is not much risk after one or two Cesareans. It's almost the same. The percentage doesn't go up. There's not much difference. If you've had a C-section, you have the same chances as if you've had a second C-section. That's what the studies are showing.”I asked her about my dehiscence, and she's like, “A lot of women who didn't have a C-section can have a dehiscence, but with some women, we don't see it because they're not getting opened up.” She's like, “It happens more than you think. It doesn't mean that it's because of your scar that you had the dehiscence. It could have been that's just how your body reacted.” After all of those affirmations, that reassured me a little bit. I was not risking my baby. At the same time, you read stories, and you just don't want to make foolish decisions even though in your heart, you know what you want. When you listen to the outside world, it can influence a little bit of how you are thinking, and you are trying to make a wise decision. That was me in that second part of my pregnancy. However, the one thing she told me was, “The one thing that can make or break your VBAC, though, is getting a doula.” Every time she would see me, she was like, “Did you get your doula? Did you get your doula? Did you get your doula?” So I went. I got a doula who also had a VBAC. It was very important to have someone who had the experience of having a VBAC. I feel like when your team knows how badly you want it and what it means to you, I feel like it changes a lot for your game. I remember having my little prebirth classes with her, and she kept telling me, “You need to build a team who believes in your goal more than you believe in your goal because at some point during the birth, you're going to doubt yourself, and you need people who are going to reinforce you with confidence and positivity.” Meagan: Positivity, yes. Aisha: Yes, and that you can do it and that your body was meant for this. Of course, within that too, we also prepped for the occasion of a possible C-section, how to have a gentle C-section, and things I wanted to have. For me, it was very important for me to see my baby's being born. That's something I never experienced with both of my daughters. I heard them cry, but it was this wall in front of me. I never saw them come out of me. We also prepped for that, but yeah. We did a lot of prepping. She suggested that I go see an osteopath. With my second daughter, and my first VBAC, I had seen a chiropractor, but she told me that an osteopath might help loosen up some muscles. I went to see that person. It felt good, then I did acupuncture at the same time which I think was maybe just to release and relax and let go. I think there were a lot of little things that I did in order to just not hold on to all of the stress– writing letters and closing up chapters. I feel like it allowed me to just let go of the traumas that I had. Fast forward to my due date for my second baby. I lose a good part of my mucus plug. I sent it to my doula. She was like, “Okay, I think your body is starting to work.” Now, I can say I was starting to have contractions, but my way that I think I handled this birth was denial. The whole time that I was having those contractions, I kept saying, “They are painful Braxton Hicks. They are painful Braxton Hicks, and that's what we are going to do.” I kept walking a lot and every day, I was taking an hour walk. During those hour walks, that's when I was listening to the podcast and listening to stories and literally looking for VBAC after two Cesarean stories and hearing what women went through and their tips and tricks. That happened at my 40-week due date. Then the contractions kept going. During the daytime, they would spread out a little bit. At night time, they would be every 10-15 minutes. They would wake me up from sleeping, so I knew deep down that something was going on, but I was not trying to put my heart into it. I'm like, “They are just Braxton Hicks.” That kept on going for two days. At 40 weeks and 3 days, I had my doctor's appointment. I remember waking up that morning and being like, “Oh, those Braxton Hicks are really pushing.” I remember my husband was like, “Do you think we should go and drop of the girls at their godmother's?” I'm like, “You know what? No. I don't think this is it.”I had my appointment that afternoon. I have a friend of mine who lives next to my doctor's office. She had a 6-month-old baby at that time. I'm like, “Let's drop the girls off at my friend's, then afterward, I can snuggle up the baby because I heard oxytocin might help everything get going.” I went to see my doctor. My doctor asked if I wanted to get checked. That's one thing too, I went through the whole pregnancy not wanting to get checked. I knew that dilation means nothing. Meagan: Yes. Aisha: There is also how effaced you are and the baby's station. Those are also other things that you must know. You can be at a 10 and be stationed at a -2. It doesn't mean your baby is still coming. There are a lot of little details that I discovered. Meagan: We don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. We focus so highly on that big 10 number when there is so much more. It's funny because with my clients, they'll be like, “Oh, I got checked, and I was only this centimeter.” I'm like, “I don't even care about the centimeter. What were you effaced?” They're like, “I don't know. They didn't say anything.” Next time you get checked, ask because that number is a cooler number. Let's get effaced. Let's do that. Even then, we know that can change. We can go from thick, hard, and posterior to completely open and thin. It all varies, and it varies quickly, but there are so many other things to focus on than just that big 10 number. Aisha: Exactly. That's why I never asked to get checked the whole time. I'm like, “I'm going to go like that without checking. That will be bad.” When I got there, my doctor knew. She was like, “You're not getting checked, right?” At every appointment, she would ask, and I'm like, “No, I'm not getting checked today.” She asked, “Are you having contractions?” I'm like, “I lost my mucus plug last night. I'm having painful Braxton Hicks.” She's like, “How painful?” I'm like, “Well, people contract and call it Braxton Hicks.” She's like, “Keep doing what you're doing, however, when you go to the hospital if ever you don't give birth by 41 weeks, we have to send you to do a non-stress test to the baby, and the hospital will read your report, and they're going to force you to have a C-section. Be ready.” She was prepping me. She was like, “I'm going to write in your file that it's VBAC after two Cesareans. We've talked about it. You're going to do a trial of labor. I'm letting it go.” She was okay with letting me to go at least 41+5 and 42 weeks. Meagan: Or what evidence shows, okay. Aisha: She wasn't giving me any stress. She told me that the one thing that was giving me confidence was the fact that my body went into labor twice, and my body knows what to do. I left that appointment. I went to my friend's house. I snuggled up with the baby. Every time I would take the baby, my contractions, the painful Braxton Hicks, would be every 5 minutes. They would come more often than not. The moment we left her house, I'm like, “Okay, I don't have the baby no more, but the painful Braxton Hicks keep going.” In the car ride, it was a 20-minute car ride to my house. I got to my house. I didn't say nothing to my husband. I took my daughters. I went to give them a bath. I was showering with them actually. It was a shower. I was showering with them. I was on my knees, and at some point, I had to stop and be like, “Okay. Those Braxton Hicks are quite painful.” I gave the girls a shower. I dressed them up. They went to bed. I came downstairs to my husband and was like, “You know what? Yeah. The Braxton Hicks are becoming more and more painful.” He was like, “Okay. Do you want me to pack up the car?” I'm like, “No, they are still Braxton Hicks. We are not there yet.” Then what really made me believe that I was in labor was whenever I am in labor are my bowel movements. I think my body releases and cleans out.Meagan: Common. That's very common. Aisha: I went to the bathroom twice in the span of 30 minutes. I looked at him, and I was like, “I think we're in labor.” That's the moment I used contractions for the first time. The contractions were there. I just went to the bathroom twice. Okay. Eat and drink because those are two things I never did with my previous labors. One thing my doula told me during the prep was, “You need to hydrate your body because the muscle that is dehydrated is a muscle that is going to contract even more. Maybe that's why you were contracting and your contractions with your second labor were back to back with no breaks.” I'm like, “Yeah, I wasn't drinking water. I was so dehydrated. My lips were all cracked. I was not drinking an ounce of water.” When my husband heard, “Okay, labor is starting,” we started drinking. I ate dinner. It was around 9:00 PM. We bought those maple waters because we heard maple water is filled with electrolytes. I started drinking that. Then we went upstairs. I'm like, “I'm going to get some rest and try to sleep a little bit since it's nighttime.” I went to bed. It wasn't comfortable. I stayed for 15 minutes, then I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to go in the shower.” My husband ran a shower. It wasn't helping. We ran a bath. I went in the bath. I stayed there for maybe 30 minutes. It was not comfortable, then I got up. I went to pee, and then I had my bloody show. Everything was out. I sent a photo to my midwife and my doula. She was like, “Okay. Get ready. I think your body is really doing a lot right now.” In my head, I'm like, “Since my body is doing its work right now, let me help it. I'm going to sit on the toilet.” I heard it's a dilation station, so I'm like, “I'm going to sit there, then hopefully, if I'm in pain, let me make it effective.” I go. I sit there. Believe me or not, that was the best position for me. Meagan: I loved it too. I loved it too. Aisha: I loved it. I was at peace. I had the light turned off, the rain sound going, and I was literally sleeping. When I say sleeping, I was snoring. I was waking up slightly just for contractions, then I was going back to bed. I never timed any of my contractions. We were not going to focus on timing. We were going to go with how we feel, and the sounds and stuff like that. Yeah. I stayed there, I think, for 2.5 hours or 3 hours on the toilet. Meagan: Wow.Aisha: It felt so good. I had a pillow. I slept there. At some point, you can hear in my sound that it was a bit more there. My doula was hearing me. She told my husband, “You know what? I think this is time. You guys need to pack up the kids and go to the hospital.” We are about 35-40 minutes away from the hospital, so we had quite a drive. My husband packed up the car, and around 2:00 AM, we left to the hospital. I remember prior to labor, I told myself, “I'm going to give myself a coping mechanism. As long as I'm home, I'm just going to do nothing and try to take it in.” Once I'm in the car, I bought those combs. I was going to have the combs in my hand for the car ride, then once contractions are really unbearable, I'm going to grab the second comb. In the car ride, I had that one comb. I took it.  We went to the hospital, but the contractions were so great. I had time to do curbside walking around the hospital when we got there. My girls' godmother came and met us at the hospital so we could transfer the girls. While they were doing that transfer, I was doing curbside walking. I was taking photos. I was like, “I need to take photos of my girls.” I was in such a happy mood. The contractions were spread out which was a first for me because with all of my other labors, the moment I got to the hospital, it was an emergency and I could not control myself. We got there. We got to the hospital. I was able to give them my name and fill out my papers. I was really clear-minded. I went into triage and I was a bit scared because with my other labors, when I got checked, I was at 1 centimeter or 2 centimeters. I was going to see what I am, but you know what? We can handle it because the contractions were still spread apart. If I was a 2, I would still be good. I lay down. I got checked, and they told me I was at 5 centimeters. I thought, “Oh my god.” I asked, “What is the station and how effaced am I?” Then they were like, “You are 80% effaced, and you're at the station -2.” I'm like, “Okay. This is it. We're doing it.” They were like, “We are admitting you. You're not going to go home.” I was so excited. However, that's when the battle started. They took my file and came back. Meagan: Darn it. Aisha: They said, “We see you had two Cesareans already. Usually, you need to have a C-section after two C-sections.” I'm like, “I discussed with my doctor, and she was okay with me doing a trial of labor. They were like, “Well, no. This is not usually how things go. We usually don't do that. There's a lot of risk for your baby.” I'm like, “Yeah. I know the risk and I'm okay with it. It's something my doctor and I discussed. We are very at peace with it.” Then they sent me the doctor on call. The doctor came, and she was like, “I need to explain to you the dangers of what you are about to do. Your baby might die when you have a second C-section.” Then they brought up the dehiscence. “After a trial of labor, you had a dehiscence. This is not good for your body to have a dehiscence. You are more prone to uterine rupture.” All of those notes were observed by my doctor, and she was completely fine with it. Literally, the doctor looked at me, and she was like, “I can see nothing I'm going to say will change your mind. You're quite informed.” I'm like, “Yeah.” She was like, “I'm going to have you sign these release papers so you can release the hospital of anything.” At that moment, you feel like you're doing something not great because you're like, “They're making me sign this paper.”Meagan: Yeah, you feel like you're pushing against everyone in the professional world who have done multiple years of school and what they are suggesting. It feels off. Aisha: It feels off, but you what? That's why I was talking about releasing and really listening to me. That made me feel so much more at peace because I'm like, “I have to listen to that voice inside. Aisha, you can do this. You have prepped for this literally for four years in the making since your first C-section. You're educated. You know the risks. This paper is not going to make the risks change. You were okay with it before they presented that paper to you. You can still be okay with it after.”They gave me the paper. I signed everything, and then they asked me, “Well, we need to keep you monitored, however. We need to keep you monitored, and we need to have the easy access port installed in case.”Meagan: The hep lock, mhmm.Aisha: I told them that I didn't want it because it wasn't in my birth plan. I was like, “I don't want that.” I also had a super cute pink, floral hospital gown. I was like, “I'm going to wear that. I don't want to wear their hospital gown.” I think it was just mentally to feel like you are the birther, and you are the principal actor in the event. I didn't want to feel like a patient.They came. They were like, “You need to change.” I'm like, “I don't want to change. I want to keep my gown.” I had to sign a release paper that it was okay if they cut off my gown. I said, “Listen, the gown is made for that. There are buttons all around the back, but if you have to cut it off, cut it off, but I'm keeping this on.” At the end, I felt like I had to be somewhat political a little bit and give them a little so they could stop bugging me because they were breaking my bubble with the constant questions and the constant arguing.Within all of that, I was still having contractions. I'm like, “You know what? I'm going to let them monitor the baby, and I'm going to let them do the easy port so they can stop casting their opinions on my VBAC.” I know my doula was a bit scared especially for the monitoring because they were like, “The second the heart rate drops, they're going to use it as a way to send you to the operating room.” I know the second they put the monitor on, the baby's heart rate went down during the contractions, and it went right back up after. One of the nurses was like, “See? Your baby's heart rate is already going down. This is why we need to keep it.” I had the doula on the other line. She was coming to the hospital. I asked, “The baby's heart is going down.” She was like, “Aisha, it's normal that your baby's heart rate is going down during a contraction. He's literally getting squeezed. It's just normal practice. If it comes back up, it's completely fine.” Every time, they would pass those comments. The baby's heart rate dropped a couple of times, probably 7-8 times over the whole labor process, but every time, they would make a comment, “Oh, see? It dropped again. Oh, see? It dropped again.” But it kept picking back up the whole time.Anyway, I got admitted to my room. They tried to do the easy access port. I have small veins, so it literally took the anesthesiologist to do it. The whole nursing team failed to do it. I kept telling them to do it in one spot that people usually have better luck. They did it everywhere else, and in the end, it was that part that functioned.By the time they did the easy port access, it was around 7:00 AM. I got to the hospital around 4:00. It was around 7:00 AM. I asked to be checked again because, at that point, I was doing dances. The contractions were so intense, I was not happy. I was not laughing no more. I was still having breaks between them, but it was really taking everything out of me. At that point, the whole time before that, I was really enjoying the contractions. They were coming. I was like, “Oh, this is nice. I'm getting to meet my baby.” I loved the feeling to be honest. People find me weird when I say that I love contractions, but at that point, it was not fun anymore. I was going against the wall and doing those squat dances and moving my body left to right. I requested doing a check. They checked me. They were like, “Oh, you're at 9.5 and 100%.” However, baby was still stationed at -2. I'm like, “Oh no, baby is pretty high up.” My doula and I started to do some positions to get baby down. We did those for 30 minutes, but like I said, the contractions were really, really, really pushing it. I requested to get checked again. I know my doula was like, “Nothing probably happened.” She was right. Nothing happened. It was still the same, 9.5 and effaced at 100%, and still stationed to -2. At that point, I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to request the epidural.” I was seeing stars. Every time I would go through a contraction, I would see stars. At that point, I was literally, I think, mentally checked out. I was fighting against the contractions because every time a contraction would start, I would tell myself, “Okay, now you need to survive this next one.” It was no longer about enjoying it. Meagan: Surviving it, yeah. Aisha: It wasn't, “You know what, Aisha? It's four breaths. Take four deep breaths and it's done.” It was more of a survival mindset. I was like, “I'm going to take the epidural and be calm and be good.” They came. They gave it to me. They gave me a very tidbit because I was still walking. I could still feel. Yeah. I was still walking with the epidural. I could still feel everything. It just took off the edge. I think the contractions and the pain was in the front of my belly, and the back pain was gone, but I could still feel the pressure. While the anesthesiologist was giving me the epidural, my body was starting to push. I would have that feeling and everything. I think he gave me a tiny bit. Anyway, the second epidural was done, it was already shift change, so the night nurses were gone. The new nurses were in, and I think when I say the team makes a difference, they were angels sent. They were so kind. My doula went to see who was the doctor on call for the daytime, and she came to see me. She was like, “If you didn't have your own personal OB/GYN, this is the one who you would have wanted to have. This one here, that doctor here.” Then she came. She was super happy.She was like, “Okay, I see you're trying for a VBAC. The whole floor, when I heard about your case, they were saying that you had a uterine rupture. I'm like, ‘That's not right. Her doctor wouldn't have let her do a trial of labor after a rupture.' I went through your file, and I saw that you only had a dehiscence. It's very common.” She literally repeated the same thing that my doctor said. She was like, “A lot of women who didn't even have a C-section end up having a lot of dehiscence. It's just that we never know because they are never opened for a C-section to mark it down.” She was like, “It's completely common. We're going to do this.” She was like, “You've been at 9.5 for 2-3 hours, and your baby's station hasn't descended. Let's see what's going on.” She brought an ultrasound machine, and she performed the ultrasound on me. She literally saw that it was the baby's head's position. His head was slightly crooked to the left. Meagan: Asynclitic, mhmm. Aisha: Exactly. That's when I'm telling you that I love these people. I'm still having butterflies thinking about them. They came with the Miles Circuit. They came with the sheet with the images, and they're like, “We're going to do those.” I'm like, “The Miles Circuit!” They're like, “Yes.” I'm like, “Oh my god. You guys are my people.” We started doing the Miles Circuit. I did every movement for 30 minutes. I held it for 30 minutes. I did the cowgirl, I think they call it. Meagan: The flying cowgirl. Aisha: Exactly. Then after that, they came back. My doctor thought the baby's position had changed, but my water hadn't broken yet. She was like, “I'm going to break your water. The worst case scenario is that your baby's heart doesn't handle it, but I think that's going to make us go to the next level.” She broke my water. Literally, within the time she broke it and went to check, I was ready to go. That was literally all it took. She was like, “Okay, we're going to start pushing.” I know in my birth plan, I said that I was not going to push on my back lying down. I went on my four knees. I went first in my knees. I was holding onto the bed, and I was pushing that way. But I was so tired. I hadn't eaten in a while. I was still drinking, so drinking was good, but I hadn't eaten. My doula gave me candy. That helped me, but I remember in that exact moment, in my thoughts, “Aisha, your baby did it. This is your time now to help your baby. This is it. You've waited four years for this moment. This is it. This is all you've wanted. You need to find strength somewhere and make it happen.” I looked at them. I'm like, “I'm going to lie down.” I laid down, and my doula gave me this blanket. They attached this. Meagan: Mhmm, some tug-of-war. You did some tug-of-war, mhmm. Aisha: I was pulling on it when I was pushing, and my mom and a nurse were pushing my legs up. Yeah, then I pushed. I pushed. I pushed, and at some point, my body was pushing automatically whenever the contraction would come. It would literally do that. I would bear down by myself. I know the doctor kept looking at me. She was like, “Wow. This is awesome.” Yeah. I think I pushed for 45 minutes, and then he was born. My husband is actually the one who caught the baby. Meagan: Oh, yay. Aisha: That's what we wanted. We caught him. We did not know the gender, so it was really fun to see that it was a boy after two daughters. Once he was born, they put him on my chest. Everybody was crying. I know the nurses were crying. The doctor was crying. I've never had a hug from a doctor, and she literally came to my bedside and hugged me. She was like, “This is the moment. We don't see this often, so thank you for letting us experience this.”I know for a lot of the nurses, it was almost the shift change. It was almost 3:00 PM when he was born. One of the nurses looked at me. She was like, “My shift is ending in about 30 minutes. I need to see this. I need to witness this happening.” Then, yeah. He was born, and I think I had a first-degree tear, but it was on the outer labia. It was because when he was born–Meagan: Superficial. Aisha: Yeah, he had his hand on his face like a Superman. Meagan: Oh my goodness, so you had a nuchal hand, too? Oh my gosh.Aisha: Yeah, in the photos of it, it's so precious. My doula took photos, and you can literally see his hand coming out. Yeah. It was great because that evening, that night, the doctor came back on her shift. She heard that I gave birth. She came to apologize, literally. She was like, “I heard that you gave birth vaginally. Congratulations. I'm so sorry for not supporting you in that sense. There is a risk, and not every woman ends up having great stories like yours.”Meagan: Oh gosh. Aisha: “But we are happy for you.” I was just happy that I proved them wrong and that I made history in that hospital having a VBAC after two Cesareans. It happens. It's possible. I'm just happy that I listened to that voice inside, and that all of the noise around me did not affect my initial desires. Meagan: Yeah, and overall, your final decision, right? We've talked about this. I call it static. There's a lot of static that, I feel like, looms over VBAC moms. At least it did for me, and I do see it sometimes with my clients. It's their friends, their family, their providers, or whoever it may be, they are looming with this unnecessary static. Aisha: Yes. Meagan: A lot of it is, “Well, there's risk and what if's.” Oh, you name it. So many of these things, and really, I took a whole bunch of notes of little nuggets of your story. I can relate in a lot of ways with your story. It's similar to mine with how things unfolded. From the very beginning, you started off right. You started off right. You found the provider. You found the team. You got the support. You got the education. You dove in, and like you said, this was four years in the making. It took you four years to learn and grow and have this experience that you wanted. Sometimes, it takes one time to try. I say “try” with quotes, but to go and have a trial of labor, and it maybe not work out like mine and your situation. And then, okay, we learned from those two situations. Now how can we learn and grow from those situations and change and develop this next situation? It's so weird. My mind right now is really heavy on my daughter's reflections. They do reflections at school. It's a big art thing. Her topic is overcoming imperfections. Sometimes, in the birth world and especially as women, as you were saying earlier in your story, we have this thing that if we don't do it this way or if it doesn't happen this way, maybe our motherhood is stripped away, or we failed, or our baby failed. We can go as far as our baby failed us or whatever it may be. Overall, no situation is perfect. There are just always imperfections, and what do we do with the situation to grow and transform?I mean, really. I went over some of it, and then just learning more about hydration and how important food is and fueling our bodies. Aisha: Yes, yes. It's a marathon. You cannot run a marathon without an ounce of water or without food. You see it when you see people doing half marathons. There are people on the sidelines giving them water. Meagan: They're fueling. Aisha: Right. They're fueling. It is important and necessary. Knowing that the providers, as much as yes, we do have faith in them, they are there to help us, and they are there. I don't want to say this in a bad way, but they are working with us and for us. Do you know what I mean? They don't have the final say. We have the final say. That doctor who was there, when I told you about the dream team, she never ever does hospital rounds. She usually just does prenatals. Even the nurses said, “We usually see her once or twice a year. She never comes.” That ended up being the one time a year that she came. She looked at me and said that she is a pro-choice woman. She was like, “When a woman makes a choice, even if they fail, she will be happier, and she will be able to cope with the results way better than if someone strips her of that choice and obliges her to do something she did not consent to do. The outcome of that will be way harder to overcome than if she is the one who made the decision regardless of the result. That is way better.” Meagan: It's so true. Aisha: I wholeheartedly believe that. I know I had to really see in myself if that doesn't work. I know sometimes, we go into labor very naively. I feel like every first-time mom and even second-time sometimes, that can happen especially if let's say you were going for a vaginal birth, then you have a C-section, then you're trying for another vaginal birth, it's still in some sense the first time that you are going to experience this sort of experience. You're still going into it naively and blindly. Like I said, I never knew a C-section could be an option. The second time, I'm like, “It cannot happen to me twice.” After it happened to me twice, I planned for it. I planned in the circumstance that there would be a C-section, what do I want to happen? I knew I had my guidelines, and at least it wouldn't be a shocker and a hard pill to swallow. I would have been okay because I had my trial of labor.At the end of the day, your baby does decide how they want to be born. I feel like one thing I would advise all mamas and even fathers or partners, we need to include them to that. I feel like talking to your baby makes a whole lot of a difference. I got that advice from my osteopath where he told me a story about his wife about to be wheeled into a C-section. He came. He spoke to their daughter who was in the womb. He was like, “This is your moment. You decide. If you want to go to a C-section, do it. If not, this is the moment to change things.” His wife ended up having a vaginal birth right at the moment that they were going to. I pulled my husband up at some point I remember when I was starting to push. He came and saw the baby, then he was like, “This is your moment. You decide how you want to be born. You choose, and your mama is going to help you do this.” I feel like having that communication, our babies sense everything, so being connected to that too is so important. It's so important. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Circling back really quickly, if we do all of the things, if we take the VBAC education course, listen to the stories, learn more, read more, learn the stats, hire the team, and all of the things, we do our fear clearing processing about past experiences and all of that, and then we go in and be fearmongered like they were trying with you, and fearmongering by definition is that “it causes fear by exaggerated rumors of impending dangers”. There were big things that were said, but if you hadn't done the research and the education, you easily may have been fearmongered. Sometimes, it's even easy to be fearmongered even with the education. I will say that straight up. When you are being told that your baby could die, that word is very, very triggering. But you were able to have the education and be like, “No. I understand what you are saying. I respect what you are saying. I am going to continue moving forward this way.” But if we would be fearmongered and not have the education and then later learn the education, overall, our experience and view and our feelings postpartum would be a little bit rougher because we are learning these things that we could have learned before. That's why education is one of the biggest tips that we can give because you need to be educated along the way because it is easy for someone to come in. Look at you, Aisha, “No, no, no, no.” How many times did you have to say, “I understand, but no, no, no, no.” It sucks that that's the reality, and trust me, it ticks me off so much. Aisha: It is. Meagan: I wish it would change, but if we aren't educated and armed with that team, with that power, with our experience, then we are more likely going to fold in those situations. Aisha: It is completely true. At some point, even one of the nurses told me when they were trying to do the easy port that I needed to stop moving because this was going to end up with a C-section, and they really need to do the easy port. I had to tell her to never repeat the word “C-section” in front of my face. It sucks that for women or people experiencing multiple Cesareans or even one Cesarean when they are trying to do a vaginal birth that they need to constantly fight for it. Meagan: Yes.Aisha: But you do need to stand your ground and really focus on what you want. The fears will come, but that's a moment where you need to rely on the education that you have and all of the process. You spent 9 months preparing yourself, and all of those months must count for something. You're not going to be that one person. That's what I was telling myself. In the case that yes, the unfortunate happens, I was at the best place at the best time, and I had the best team. That was my thing. I trusted in my team that everything would be fine. But no, definitely. Yeah. You need to believe in yourself and in your project. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, this episode is just jampacked with all of the nuggets of information, guidance, suggestions, and empowering feelings. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for being here with us today and sharing with us your beautiful story.Aisha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. It's a dream. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Well, congratulations again.Aisha: Thank you so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Sheryl's first baby was five days late. Her second baby was five days early. From the first contraction to a surprise car birth, Sheryl's third baby was under an hour! Not only were the methods of delivery very different with each baby, but Sheryl's life circumstances were too.Julie and Sheryl chat about preparing yourself not only for the long, marathon labors, but also for the possibility of the fast and furious ones! How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right. Good morning, Women of Strength. This is Julie Francom, and I am so excited to be here with you today to share with you a very exciting story. One of my favorite types of birth stories, people might think I'm crazy, but– oh, do you know what? I'm not going to tell you what the story is, but if you have been listening for a minute, you might know when I say what my favorite type of story is, but I'm going to leave it to be a surprise. We are going to go ahead and read a Review of the Week really quickly, then I'll introduce my guest of the day. Okay, let's see. This review is from Apple Podcasts. It's from ccm57, and she says, “I am so thankful I came across this podcast and know it was an invaluable tool when educating myself regarding VBACs and the birthing process in general. My first son was born via Cesarean due to his stubbornness and refusing to turn from his breech presentation. Leading up to his C-section, I was devastated that I wouldn't be able to experience the natural birthing process I had always wanted. “I am in the medical world. I knew about VBACs, and it was never even a thought I wouldn't try for one in my next pregnancy. I found The VBAC Link halfway through my second pregnancy, and it was so addicting. I listened to every episode, sometimes multiple times a day, until my delivery. Every woman's story was amazing and truly helpful to me personally. “Thank you, Meagan, for being as passionate about VBACs and educating women all over the world. I can excitedly say that God was so gracious, and I had my beautiful VBAC this past August. Thank you to every woman who have shared your story on the podcast and for all of the women who are listening and expecting a sweet baby, I am cheering you on.” I am so excited to hear stories and reviews like that. It's really incredible what can happen when you get a group of women together to share stories and to help uplift and inspire each other. I'm grateful to this reviewer today and to all of you listening, to everyone who has shared their story on the podcast, and to everybody who helps spread the word about VBAC and helps increase access to people all over the world, really. All right. Well, guess what? It is very cold today. It's been a very nice 70s and 80 degrees here in Utah for the last little while, but it is now mid-October at the time that we are recording this, and it is raining and freezing. There is supposed to be snow dumping up in the mountains today, and I am just wrapped up tight in my big, poofy blanket and very, very excited to talk to our guest today. Her name is Sheryl, and she is going to share her Cesarean and VBAC stories with us. I am really excited. I am really excited for this story, you guys. I'm not going to tell you what we are going to talk about at the end because I don't want to ruin the surprise. It's going to be a great episode, and I am just going to go ahead and give it over to Sheryl and let her pick it up. Oh, first, hold on. Let me read her bio. I am still getting into the swing of things. Sheryl: Sure. Julie: I need to remember that. Let's see.Oh, yes. Sheryl is a mom of three. She has been married for 10 years to her husband. They live in Sugar Creek, Ohio. I love the Midwest except in the winter. It's getting ready to be not so fun out there. It's beautiful in the spring and summertime. Anyway, okay. She recently returned from living in the Dominican Republic for the last two and a half years which is really cool. I feel like everybody needs to have an experience living abroad. Sheryl: For sure. Julie: You just learn so much when you are in a foreign country experiencing different things. I feel like it's very valuable. Anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent. But now, for real, we are going to give it over to Sheryl. Go ahead, Sheryl. Sheryl: Okay, well thanks so much for having me on. This is super fun.Julie: Of course. Sheryl: Yeah, I'm not sure where you want me to start, but I have had two VBACs and very different experiences with both. My first was a C-section. I'll start with his story a little bit. He's 6-years-old, so six years ago, I knew I wanted to have a natural birth. I took a natural childbirth class. I felt like I had prepared, but I don't think I had mentally prepared for birth very well. I think if I could do it again, I would definitely have hired a doula just to help with the mental aspect. I was five days late. I told my husband, “I'm not going to work tomorrow.” It was Sunday night. I was like, “There is no way I'm going to work tomorrow. I will go into labor tonight because I can't go to work tomorrow pregnant.” He was like, “Okay.” We went on a truck drive on a bumpy road. We played mini-golf. We were like, “Okay.” We started watching a movie. I was like, “I think I'm cramping a little bit. Okay, this is great.” We finally went to bed, and yep. Sure enough, a few hours later, I woke up with contractions, and I was so excited. I was very taken back by how painful they were. Now, looking back, it was like, okay. Those contractions weren't even that bad. It was going to get so much worse. I was progressing great. I think I went to the hospital when they were 3.5-4 minutes apart. I think I got there. I think I was dilated to a 4 or 5, so they were like, “Yeah, you're progressing really well. This is great.” I figured it was 7:00 in the morning. We would have a baby by noon. At 11:00, I said that I wanted to get in the birth tub or just labor, but I wanted to get out to have the baby. I was in the tub. Now, looking back, I think I was in transition. I ended up vomiting a little bit and just being so nauseous and in so much pain. The water did help, then they came and checked me and were like, “You are an 8.” They were like, “You should get out if you don't want to have your baby in the water.” I was so excited. They came and got things ready, then I really got fearful at that point. I was just very scared about what was going to happen and all of the things. They came and checked me, and they were like, “Oh, no. You're not dilated that much. You're maybe a 7.” I just tried to keep laboring on. We ended up doing some different pain management. I was just not progressing anymore. At this point, I think it was 14-15 hours, so I was just exhausted. I was very thankful. One of the midwives at the practice that I was at was off that day. She had actually been on vacation. They let her know, “Hey, just so you know, Sheryl is at the hospital. She is having a really hard time. We can't figure out why she's not progressing further.” She was like, “I'm going in.” She came in. She was so kind, and she worked for hours trying different positions and everything possible. Finally, she was like, “Okay.” I think it was 8:00 at night. She said, “You are exhausted. Let's do an epidural,” which I didn't want because I was like, “I don't want needles. I hate needles.” I got an epidural. I got a little bit of a nap. It worked for about an hour, then it stopped working. The pain came back, but then obviously, there's nothing you can do except lay there. I was at a 9, and it wouldn't go any further. She kept trying different things even with the epidural. Finally, she was like, “Okay, he's actually gone back up. He was down, and now he's back up.” She said she was going to go talk to the doctor and see what he thinks we should do. They came back. It was 10:30 at night. They were like, “I think it's time for a C-section. We don't know why he's going back up, but typically, it's a sign that things are not going well, so we're going to do a C-section.” At that point, you're just so tired that you're like, “Okay, yeah. Whatever we have to do to get him out.” They ended up doing a C-section. I was so tired that I was falling asleep while they were doing the spinal tap. I was just exhausted. The C-section went very well. My postpartum was hard. I think just as a first-time mom with a C-section and all of those, and then feeling like a failure. That was a really challenging time, but right away, the doctor told me that they were one in the area that was known for VBACs. They had successful VBACs. He told me and my husband right away, “You will be able to have a VBAC. There is no doubt in my mind that you will be able to have a VBAC for your next.” Julie: Oh, I love that. I love that they said that to you right from the get-go.Sheryl: Yeah. It was so great, so it was like, “Okay. We know that the next one will be a VBAC.” We actually had a miscarriage between baby number one and baby number two. That was really challenging. It was a surprise. At that point, we had committed to move to Haiti. We weren't planning on getting pregnant, but we got pregnant, then 10 weeks later, we miscarried. Julie: Wow. Sheryl: It was definitely a difficult time, and it was the year 2020. I don't think I need to say anymore than that. It was February 2020 when I miscarried. Julie: Oh, Sheryl. COVID ruined everything. It really did. Sheryl: It was definitely a challenging year. We were ready to go on a mission. That got delayed until we ended up moving to Haiti in March 2021. We were there for almost 6 months, and then their president was assassinated, so the country became really turmoiled and it was becoming unsafe for Americans to be living there. Our mission board thought it would be best to pull us home. At that time, we had planned, okay. We moved in March. If we start trying for baby number two in June, we would have been in Haiti for a year. We'll start trying. We had kind of started trying, then we got pulled out in July, so it was like, man. Do we keep trying? Do we not? We were like, like, “You know what? We'll keep trying. We'll see what happens.” Yep, sure enough, in August, we got pregnant again with our second baby, our little girl named Felicity. Right away, I had that confidence that, “Okay. I'm going to have a VBAC.” I did a really good job, I felt, of preparing mentally. I read so many books, so many podcasts. I decided right away, “Okay. I'm going to have a doula.” I was just really prepared. But during this time, we were planning on going back to Haiti. It's so many details, but long story short, we weren't able to go back to Haiti because it ended up getting worse, not better. So our mission board was like, “Hey, let's find someplace else for you to serve in the meantime before you have your baby back in Ohio.” We connected with a mission in the Dominican Republic and ended up going to the DR. That was a great experience, but also, I waited to come back from the DR until I was 35 weeks pregnant. It was crazy to be in another country and know that you're going back. I definitely did not want to have a baby in the Dominican Republic. If listeners are familiar with the DR, they have the highest C-section rate. I looked at the number really quick. I was actually surprised it wasn't higher, but 58% of births are C-sections. Almost all of their natural births, they do episiotomies. That's just what they do.Julie: What?Sheryl: Yeah, it's nuts. So it's like, there's no way I'm going to have a baby in the Dominican Republic. Thank the Lord, I didn't have a baby int he Dominican Republic. I was very ready to do this. I had affirmations. I had prayers written out. I hired a doula and all of the things. I spent a lot of things praying for very specific things asking the Lord, “Okay, I don't want to go late. I don't want to have a long labor, and I want this certain midwife.” Her name was Leanne. I wanted her to deliver me. She's delivered two of my sisters' children, so she was a family friend. She's known us for 20 years. Those were my prayers that I kept praying. I asked family and friends to pray.I went in at 39 weeks. She was like, “Hey, you're dilated to a 3. You're 50% effaced. Do you want to do a membrane sweep?” I was like, “Yes, let's do it.” We did that. I went home. I felt fine. We did some food prep. I finally got my husband to pack his hospital bag that next day, then I guess I went to the doctor when I was 39 weeks and 1 day, but the next day, my husband was supposed to be working 2 hours from where we lived. He was like, “Should I go?” I was like, “Well, I think so. I don't think I'll feel anything tonight. Let's plan on going. I'll wake up when you wake up and make sure I'm not having any contractions.” He woke up at 5:00. I was like, “Yeah, I'll get up.” I went to the bathroom. “No, I'm fine. No contractions. Go on to work. You'll be just fine.” 6:30 rolls around. Whoa, that's a contraction. “Okay, I'm going to go back to sleep.” At 7:30, a contraction woke me up, and my little boy at the time would have been 3, almost 4. He woke up ready to have breakfst, and I was like, “Oh, that's a contraction.” I tracked my husband, and he wasn't even to the job site yet. I'm like, “Oh no.” Julie: Oh my gosh. Sheryl: Oh no. I made breakfast. I got in the shower. I was like, “Surely, they'll slow down.” At this point, they were 4-5 minutes apart. I was like, “They aren't slowing down. Okay.” My sister texted me. She was like, “Hey, how are you feeling this morning?” I was like, “I think I'm going into labor.” She FaceTimed me. I'm braiding my hair and trying to get ready. She's watching me, and she was like, “Have you let Javen know yet?” I was like, “No. I was trying to let him get some work done.” She was like, “Sheryl, are you timing them?” I was like, “Yeah.” She was like, “That's every 3.5-4 minutes apart. You should probably call him.” I was like, “Okay, yeah, you're right.” I called him, and he immediately knew. He was like, “Ah, she's in labor.” He hopped in the work truck and headed toward me, but there was no way that I could sit here and wait. We had three people lined up to take Riley for us. Unfortunately, those two people both did not pick up their phones, and one was sick. I called number three, and she was like, “Hey, I will come and get you and take you to the midwife office.” They were going to check me there before I went to the hospital just to make sure I was progressing. She had three kids in the car. She added one more of mine in. It was an interesting 30-minute drive trying to labor while there were kids in the car and a lot happening. I got to my midwife practice, and she was like, “Okay, yep. You're dilated to a 5. You need to get to the hospital.”Thankfully, my husband met us there. We headed to the hospital. We got to the hospital. I was a 6. My doula got there at 12:00, and things were just progressing really nicely. At 1:00, I think it was 1:00, my doula was like, “Hey, why don't you go to the bathroom to see if you need to pee or anything?” I did, an at that moment, my water broke. They checked me. They were like, “You're a 9. You're almost there. Two more contractions. Okay, you're ready to push.” So I pushed for an hour, and she was born at 2:15. It was really an amazing birth. It was everything I had prayed for. It was less than 12 hours which I had specifically prayed, “Please, Lord, no more than 12 hours.” It was told, “Oh, you'll probably push for 2 hours,” and I pushed for an hour. It just felt like God was very faithful, and He answered my prayers. The one thing I didn't pray about, and this time I did, was for no tearing. I did tear pretty bad, so that made postpartum pretty rough. After Felicity, we returned to the Dominican Republic and were there for 2.5 years. We'll fast forward to last year, and were like, “Okay, maybe it's time for us to head back to Ohio.” We really loved it in the DR. We had a great community and great friendships. The ministry we were serving with was wonderful, but we felt like, “Okay, this is what we are supposed to do.”We came home for Christmas. We hadn't been home for over a year, so it was really exciting to come back to Ohio and see family. While we were here, I just was like, “Man, I'm one day late,” and I'm never one day late. I had said, “Okay, I'd better get that taste just in case.” I took it, and sure enough, we are expecting another baby. It was very surprising, but also, it was just like, “Okay, we were planning on coming home, so now we are definitely coming home.” We moved back to Ohio in June, and we were due the end of August, August 27th. I think I should have mentioned that with Felicity, our second baby, I was 5 days early. I was 5 days late with the first one, and 5 days early with the second. I think just with this pregnancy, it was so different because we were just in a different phase of life. I didn't prepare as well. I felt like in the last few weeks, I was scrambling mentally. I was feeling anxious and not prepared. I actually listened to The VBAC Link one day. I was really struggling. I was like, “I need to hear some positive stories.”I was driving to the airport to do an airport run, so I just kept listening to episodes, and it was like, “Okay. Other people have done this. I can do this to,” so that was super helpful. I would say that overall, the practice was really great. It was one midwife and one OB/GYN, but I did not love this time around. They were not as supportive as I felt. They were like, “Hey, we are not going to let you go past 40 weeks no matter what. That's our policy. You can't go past 40 weeks.” I was just like, “Aw, well, I don't want to be induced. I don't want Pitocin. I don't want to be induced.” They just kept pressing that, especially the doctor. I just didn't feel super supported. We decided not to do a doula this time. The last few weeks were kind of rough. I didn't feel great. It was the summer. We transitioned. We had two kids. Our second one, Felicity, is two, so it's a lot different being pregnant with a 2-year-old and an almost 4-year-old. Yeah. I kept going to the doctor. At 38 weeks, they checked me. They were like, “Yeah, you're not dilated at all.” At 39 weeks, they checked me, and they were like, “Yeah, there's no way we could do a membrane sweep. You're not dilated at all.” So at my 39-week appointment, they were like, “Yeah, we think it's time to schedule that induction.” They did an ultrasound at 38 weeks, and they were like, “Yeah, you look perfect. Baby is healthy. Not too big.” All of those things. It was frustrating to me because I was like, “If everything is fine, why do I need to be induced?” We were contemplating fighting it, but then me and my husband were like, “Hey, is the stress of fighting the practice worth over going into an induction with a positive attitude?” We decided, “Hey, we're going to schedule the induction. We're going to do our best to do everything we can in the next week to make it happen on our own.” Lots of walking. We tried everything. My induction was scheduled for Thursday, the 30th, I believe, or the 29th. The 29th. I went in on Monday and had an appointment. I was like, “Hey, I just want to get checked one more time. Can I do a membrane sweep? That worked well last time.” I think my appointment was at 2:30 in the afternoon on Monday. They tried, and she was like, “Nope. You're not even dilated more than a 2, and he's way far up. Yeah. You're just going to have to be induced on Thursday.” I was just so devastated. I left so sad, and I was just like, “Okay. We're going to do this. I need to just be positive.” But then that night after we had the kids in bed, I had a little bit of a breakdown. I told my husband, “I'm just so sad. I really thought I could do this. My body is failing me.” You know, all of those things. He was like, “Hey, let's just pray about it.” That night, we specifically prayed that I wouldn't tear, Leanna would get to deliver, and that it would go really quickly. That was at 10:30 at night. We quickly did a lap around outside, just trying to calm me dow and then hopefully a walk would start something. Finally, we went to bed at 11:30. As I was climbing into bed, I felt a contraction. I was like, “Oh wow. That's been the most painful one I've ever had. Okay, I'm going to go to bed.” I had another one about 8 minutes later, but didn't think anything of it. I finally fell asleep, and I kept feeling them, but I was still sleeping. I didn't really worry about it. Again, in my mind, I have to be induced on Thursday. There's no way I'm going into labor. I woke up at 1:30 to an extremely painful contraction. All of a sudden, I felt a pop. I feel like I heard it too, but I felt a pop, and I was like, “That's my water.” I woke Javen up. I'm like, “Javen, my water just broke, and the contractions are very painful.” He quickly called his mom to come over and watch the kids. He called the doctor's office to let them know. I was yelling, “Hey, tell them that Leanne's supposed to deliver.” I got in the shower. I tried to start getting cleaned up, and I'm realizing that the contractions are every 3-3.5 minutes. But in my mind, my water just broke. I'm sure I had plenty of time. I was only dilated to a 2 yesterday. My mother-in-law got there. I got out of the shower and got dressed. Neither me or my husband were in a hurry, but I walked from the bathroom to the kitchen table. Contraction to the kitchen. I couldn't walk more than a few steps without having a contraction. I looked at my mother-in-law and I was like, “Man, I've never had my water break this early. These contractions hurt really badly.” She shook her head and was like, “Uh-huh. Yeah.” She looks at Javen, and she was like, “You need to get her to the hospital.” She's trying to get us to the car. I'm in so much pain. She was like, “You've got to get to the hospital.” The hospital is a 40-minute drive. We left for the hospital at 2:00. I actually rode on a birthing ball in the back of the car which now, I'm like, “Yeah, that probably didn't help slow the progress down,” but that was the only thing that was comfortable. I had my worship playlist going. I was in a lot of pain. I had a few friends who I had told, “Hey, I'm going to text you when I go into labor so you can be praying.” I texted a couple friends. I texted a sibling, “Just so you know, I'm going to the hospital. My water broke.” My one sister does some night work. She was actually still awake, so she started tracking me on my phone. We got halfway to the hospital, and I told Javen, “Javen, we're not going to make it. I need you to pull over. He's coming.” He was like, “No, just wait 20 minutes. You can wait 20 minutes.” I was like, “Nope. There's no way. You need to get the car pulled over right now. He's coming out.”I quickly got off the ball, and within 2 minutes of getting the car pulled over, Javen moving the driver's seat forward, and opening up the door, and calling 9-1-1, we had our baby boy. It was the most crazy experience. I say he came out in three pushes, but really, I didn't push at all. To experience my body just taking over is just an insane feeling. Julie: Oh my gosh. Yep. Sheryl: Yeah. The ambulance was headed our way but they were pretty far away because we were in the middle of nowhere. We were actually pulled over into an Amish farm. We live in the heart of Amish country in the middle of Ohio. I'm praying, “Please don't come outside and watch me give birth.” Luckily, no. We found out who the owner was and through back and forth, they were like, “No, we didn't wake up. We didn't hear anything.” So praise the Lord for that.I actually delivered my placenta before the ambulance got there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Sheryl: Baby Casey was healthy and just immediately had a head full of hair. He was the most beautiful baby boy. I held him on my chest. Javen caught him and handed him to me. Just to hold him, it was such a whirlwind. It was crazy. I got into the ambulance and realized that yes, not only does he have a head full of hair, but he has a head full of red hair. He has very, very red hair. He was just a surprise from every point. We got to the hospital. The midwife came to check on me. She was like, “How did this happen? I just saw you not even 12 hours ago, and you were not ready to have a baby.” Every prayer I prayed was answered again. Now I know, and I'll tell listeners, if you're going to pray, you need to be specific. Be specific when you say, “Get me to the hospital and not in the car.” I learned that. Julie: That is so funny.Sheryl: I did not tear, and that was something I had prayed for which was really cool because my midwife is older, so I think this was baby number 1900 for her or in the 1900s. She had always told me, “Hey, when you go to push, don't push the head out. Just breathe it out. Don't push and you won't tear.” As he was coming out, that's all I could hear in the back of my head was Leanne saying those things. It worked. That was really special. She was really, really proud of me for remembering that. Julie: I love that so much. Okay, you guys know I love a good car birth story. It's my favorite. It would be my dream birth. People might think I'm crazy, but man, I just dream one day of following somebody as they rush to the hospital in labor and then pull over to the side of the road, and I get to document a car birth. Anyway, probably not what you would use to describe it, but what happened when you got to the hospital? I'm assuming you got into the ambulance and drove over. They checked you out. You didn't tear and everything. Did you go home or did you stay in the hospital? Sheryl: We stayed in the hospital because they were like, “It's not necessarily you, but the baby. We have to monitor the baby for 24 hours.” My husband and I looked at each other. We were like, “We have to be here for 24 hours? We should have just gone back home and had somebody check on us there.” But yeah, it was great. I got in the ambulance. My husband had my phone. I looked down, and like I said, my sister was tracking me. I had a text message that said, “Did you just give birth on the side of the road?” I responded, “Yes, I did.” She said that as soon as she saw the car stop moving, she kept refreshing and the car did not move. She just knew. That was fun. I started nursing. I'm laying there in the ambulance, and I'm like, “Well, hand him to me. I want to see if he's going to nurse.” He latched immediately. They were surprised. Also, two of our EMTs were Amish guys, so that's fun. To live in Amish country, you do have Amish EMTs then, so that was fun. Julie: Yeah. Wow. That is so crazy. I think that is just such a way to highlight how every birth is different. We talk about how every person is different. Every pregnancy and birth is so different and unique in and of itself. You had three very different birth experiences. I love that. I was trying to do the math in my head about how long this was from when you woke up at 1:30. What time was baby born?Sheryl: 2:20. Julie: Oh my goodness. Girl. Sheryl: Yes, so less than an hour. I never would have thought. We did joke a couple times, “Hey, if you want your VBAC, just have it in the car, and you for sure will get it exactly how you want it if you don't want Pitocin and all of that.” We joke about that, but now we know that you probably shouldn't joke about that. It might happen. But honestly, I never thought. I'm a little bit crunchy, but not super. I didn't want a home birth or a free birth, but now, I get it. It was super empowering. I had so much adrenaline and just to be like, wow. My body did what it was supposed to do. I can trust it. It knew when to go into labor. Obviously, it doesn't always go that way, but this time it did. It knew what it was supposed to do.Somebody told me that their doctor said, “I never trust third babies.” Julie: I always say that too. Sheryl: Yep. It's definitely true. Julie: I always say that I don't trust babies. I especially don't trust third babies. It's just so unpredictable especially when you let babies do their thing. There are times when interventions are needed. There are times when Cesareans are lifesaving. There are times when induction is necessary, but I feel like the biggest majority of the time, if we just let the body do what it knows how to do, things will happen just beautifully and perfectly. Like I said, there is nuance there. It's important to acknowledge that, but a lot of amazing things happen when we just trust and create space for the body and the baby to do their beautiful labor dance and let things happen as designed. I think it's really neat. I think it's all neat. I'm a birth nerd. I think birth is neat. Birth is cool, and I think there are lots of really cool things to say about all of your stories. I do think it's really important that with VBAC especially, you can have a VBAC in lots of ways. You can have it in the hospital, a planned induction, a planned epidural, planned unmedicated, in-hospital, out-of-hospital, or however you want. A free birth, unassisted or whatever. You can do it all of the different ways, but I think it's really important. We talk a lot about, especially with VBAC, laboring like a first-time mom and being prepared for the long haul. Plan for a 20-hour labor or longer.But I feel like maybe it's a disservice to not talk about the other side when things can pick up and start really fast and go really fast because I feel like the perfect length of labor is a nice 8 hours. 8 hours is a good amount of time where it doesn't railroad you. You don't have to catch up and process. You don't feel defeated because it's taking so long. 8 hours is a really great length. I think it's a disservice to talk about that would happen if there is not time to get to the hospital or if there's not time to get an epidural. Sometimes parents rely so much on not getting a medicated birth that they don't think about what would happen if there is not time for that, then being railroaded by a fast labor and not being prepared for the intensities that come with that can cause birth trauma in and of itself even though the body is doing its thing and we trust the body. It can cause trauma by having something that you didn't prepare for or expect of plan for. I would encourage everybody that if you are planning a home birth, if you are planning a long labor, cool. That's great. It's great to be prepared for things. I always say to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, but sometimes, it's good to prepare for the other things too. Prepare for the things that are opposite of what you want or what you are hoping for or what you are preparing for because at least if you acknowledge them and make a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C, then you will be less likely to be unprepared or caught off guard or have the opportunity for trauma to be introduced to your story. I think it's really fun to explore all of these different things and hear all of the different stories and how different everybody truly is. I love that. What would you say? Sheryl: As far as that, a lot of people were like, “Oh man, my husband could never do that.” One, so many instincts just kick in. So many people said, “How did you know what to do?” One, I've had a baby before. Two, my body knew what to do. I just listened to the cues. Okay, what should I do? What feels comfortable? But then again, my husband was amazing. No fear. He caught the baby. He drove to the hospital with bloody hands, but he is a hunter and a farmer, so he's like, “Yeah, no big deal.” He's known as a cool, calm, collected guy, and he even is when he is delivering his own baby in the back of a car. The other funny thing was that since we had just moved back, we had bought a new vehicle. I had dreamed of being a minivan mom almost my whole life. I had always wanted to be a mom. Finally, my husband got me my first minivan. Baby number three on the way, we finally get a minivan. Luckily, it came with really good mats in it that had a wide lip around the edge. Everybody was like, “What a mess that must be.” Lucky for us, everything stayed right there. The next morning, Javen went and got me breakfast. On his way to get me breakfast, he stopped by the car wash and dumped it out, rinsed it off, and we were good to go. Julie: Perfect. Sheryl: The doctor at our practice was like, “You really should write that company and do a review for them.” Julie: That is amazing. Sheryl: If you are thinking of having kids, you should put that in. Julie: Maybe you'll get a free car. Did you hear the story about a guy who had a Stanley-insulated tumbler in his car, and his car caught on fire? After, he was going back through the wreckage. The car was literally on fire. He has a video of this car. He's looking through it. It's charred and burnt, then he opens up his Stanley cup and there's still ice in it. Then Stanley the company gifted him a new car. Sheryl: Oh, wow. Oh man. Julie: The natural advertisement for that. Can you believe it? Sheryl: Maybe I need to reach out. Julie: Do it. Sheryl: As we were sitting there in the hospital, we can't sleep after that. It takes hours for you to calm down after that much adrenaline. Life for the last four years, really, has been crazy. I think we've lived in six or seven different houses. We have been back and forth to three different countries basically. That part of our story is coming to a close. It was like, yep. Okay. This is a really great way to end this chapter of our life with a carbirth. Our life will continue to be interesting and crazy in other ways. Julie: That is amazing. It sounds like you have quite an adventurous life for sure, and what a story. What a story to tell. Thank you so much. Oh wait. Before we wrap it up, I want you to tell us your best VBAC advice. What is one thing you would tell anybody preparing for a VBAC? What should they do? Sheryl: Yeah, great question. I would say to prepare like it's a marathon mentally. Really think about what you want. What to you is a part of birth? If you follow the Lord, ask Him those things because He does want to answer our requests. He does delight in giving us what we want. Sometimes, He doesn't always answer that, but in my experience, when I've asked in this specific area, He has given me what I wanted. Really pray about it. I know that with every birth, I have gone and gotten a massage. For that hour, I have focused on, “Okay. What is an important part of birth to me?” That would be my advice. Really focus mentally on feeling strong and capable. Julie: I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Sheryl. It's been such a joy to listen to your stories. Yeah, so fun.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What are the typical differences between hospital OB care and home birth midwifery care? Throughout her VBAC prep, Gesa was able to directly compare the two side by side. She was planning a home birth with a midwife but continued to see her OB at the hospital for the insurance benefits. Some differences she noted: Her OB used ultrasound to determine baby's position. Her midwife palpated her belly.Her midwife ran a blood test to check iron levels, and then suggested an iron supplement. Her OB did not track iron.OB visits were typically a few minutes long. Visits with her midwife were an hour or longer in her home. The hospital required cervical checks, laboring in a mask, continuous monitoring, and only allowed one support person. The way Gesa navigated her care is so inspiring. Her midwife was hands-on during pregnancy in all of the best ways and just as hands-off during birth to let the physiological process take over. Gesa's story is exactly why we love HBAC so much!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie:  Good morning, Women of Strength. I am really excited to be back here with you. This is Julie, and it is my first official episode back doing regular episodes. Just like we talked about a couple of weeks ago, I'm going to be doing– or was it last week? I can't remember what week it is. But we are going to be doing every other episode alternating between me and Meagan for the most part. I'm really excited to be back here. We have a really special guest with us today. But before we get into that, I want to say that I just got back from South Korea two weeks ago. No, two days ago. If you haven't listened to Paige's episode for her maternal assisted C-section, go listen to the episode that launched on December 2nd. I do believe it was maybe episode 357. Me and Paige are talking and sharing her story. I am literally so jet-lagged right now. It is going to be a morning for me for sure. If I'm a little clunkier than usual or my brain doesn't work just right, just be a little patient with me, please, because the jet lag is absolutely real. Before we do get started though and introduce our guest, I want to read a review. Meagan sent me a review this morning, and I think it's really interesting because she sent me this review this morning. It's a 1-star review, and you might be curious as to why I'm choosing to read a 1-star review, but I'll tell you a little bit more afterward why I picked that. This one is on Apple Podcasts. This person said, “Listened to 10 episodes, and found that the stories they choose to share are usually always the same with a twist. Didn't find any episodes that said ‘A C-section saved me and my baby's life' so lots of bias and fear-mongering from people who are selling female empowerment. Maybe I'm missing the episode where the hosts say that sometimes it's okay to have a C-section. With all of these birth stories, you would think I could relate with one, but I find that the anecdotes shared in this podcast are a really easy way to avoid talking about women who are actually statistical outliers.” I think that episode is really interesting. First of all, I appreciate everybody's views and perspectives. But also, I think that review is a little bit interesting because she said she has listened to 10 episodes. I'm just assuming it's a she. Maybe that's not the right way to do that. She said she has only listened to 10 episodes. It's interesting because I wonder what 10 she picked. I feel like, isn't it maybe a sign that all of the stories are similar because our healthcare system needs a lot of work? Clearly, if so many women are having trauma and unnecessary C-sections, isn't that a sign that something needs to change? I know that a lot of us have struggled with unnecessary C-sections and really traumatic treatment in the hospital systems, so I don't know. I wanted to bring that up because first of all, we do have many, many episodes where C-sections were necessary. We've talked a lot about that how C-sections are lifesaving procedures when they are necessary. I feel like we do a pretty good job leaving space for all of the stories, but let me know what you think. Go to the Instagram post today about this episode, and let me know. What do you think? Do you think we do a pretty good job? Do you think we need to have a little bit more talking about C-sections that are actually necessary and lifesaving? Do you think it's unequally represented? Let me know. I want to start a discussion about this. Go ahead and leave a comment. Let's talk about it. But I do know that me and Meagan have been very intentional with sharing a wide variety of stories and outcomes and necessary and unnecessary C-sections. Hopefully, you feel well represented no matter what side of the view you are on. Anyway, we are going to go ahead and get started now. Today, I have a really awesome guest. Her name is Gesa, and she lives in Charleston, South Carolina. She is a mom of two boys. She had a C-section with her first baby. The C-section was because of a breech presentation after she tried everything to turn him. Knowing that she absolutely did not want to have a C-section for her second baby, she navigated the difficult search for a truly supportive provider and ended up having a successful HBAC, or home birth after Cesarean, after having some challenges to get labor started. We are super excited to hear her story. We are going to talk more at the end about how to find the right provider for your birth and your birth after a Cesarean after she goes ahead and shares her story with us. All right, Gesa. Are you there?Gesa: I'm here. Julie:  Yay. I'm so excited to have you with me today. Thank you so much for joining me, and again, for being patient with all of my technical issues this morning. Gesa: Of course. Julie:  But I will go ahead and would like to turn it over to you. You can share your story with us, and yeah. I'm excited to hear it. Gesa: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and share my story. Okay, let's start with my first birth which was my C-section. Everything was going well at the beginning of the pregnancy. I was feeling a little bit nauseous, but overall, feeling well. Then at the anatomy scan, I found out that my baby was breech. I was like, “Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean for birth? What's going on with that?” We had so much time left. The provider was not worried at all. It was around 20 weeks so we thought we had plenty of time at that point. Babies are little. They flip-flop around. I was not concerned at all. As time progressed, he continued to stay breech, so he did not flip on his own. During one of my OB appointments, I was basically told, “Well, if your baby does not turn head down, we're just going to have to have a C-section.” There were really no other options given. At that point, I was actually planning a natural birth at a hospital, so that was not really what I had in mind. We had also taken a Hypnobirthing class which was awesome. We learned so much about birth and pregnancy that I had no idea about. Hearing that I was going to need a C-section if he wasn't going to turn head down was really not what I wanted. I started looking into things I could do to help him turn. I started doing Spinning Babies exercises. I started seeing a chiropractor. I did acupuncture. I even did moxibustion at some point which is really fun. It was a Chinese herb that you burn by your toe, and that's supposed to create fetal movement and help the baby flip which unfortunately did not help. I was out in the pool doing handstands and backflips about every day. I was lying on my ironing board at some point with a bag of frozen peas on my belly. I really tried everything possible to get this baby to flip. Nothing worked. I ended up trying to have the ECV at about 37 weeks. That's the version where they try to manually flip the baby from the outside. She gave it a good try to attempt, and he would not move. It was that his head felt stuck under my ribs. It was very uncomfortable. He was very comfortable where he was at. They had me schedule the C-section which I was really unhappy about, but at that point, I didn't really see any other option. It was about my 37-38 week appointment, and the OB wanted to talk a little bit more about the details of the C-section which made me really emotional because that was not what I wanted. I started crying during the appointment, then the nurse comes in and says, “Hey, we actually forgot to check your blood pressure. Let's do that really quick.” I was like, “I'm sure that's going to be great now that I'm all emotional and crying here.” Of course, the blood pressure was higher than it was supposed to be. The OB started joking, “Oh, maybe we'll have a baby today. Maybe we're just going to do an emergency C-section,” which was not what I wanted to hear at all. It made me even more emotional. I remember sitting in the office crying. Now, I had this high blood pressure. My husband handed me this magazine of puppies or kittens. He said, “Sit here. Chill out and just relax. Look at the kittens. They'll retake your blood pressure, and I'm sure it's going to be fine.” I was like, “Oh my god. Nothing is fine right now.” It ended up coming down a little bit. They still sent me to the hospital for some additional monitoring. It was all good, and we ended up being sent home. But I just felt so unsupported and so unheard in that moment. When I was thinking about the C-section, I was even considering at some point what happens if I just don't show up for my C-section appointment and just waited to see if I'd go into labor? But then I thought, “Maybe an emergency C-section would not be any better than a planned.” I had a friend who had an emergency C-section, and she said that the recovery was really difficult so that's also not really what I wanted. I went ahead and showed up to the hospital for my scheduled C-section at 39 weeks and 1 day. But I was so emotional. I was crying on the way to the hospital. I was crying at the hospital. Everybody was really nice at the hospital, but it was just not what I wanted. The idea of them cutting my body open and removing the baby was just so far away from what I had envisioned. The C-section went well. I really did not have any major issues. But recovery was pretty rough. He was pretty big. He was 9.5 pounds and 21 inches long. Recovery was a little rough. He had also a really difficult time with breastfeeding. He had a really weak suck. I just kept thinking, “What if he was not done cooking? What if they got him too early? He wasn't ready to be born yet.” We found out later that he had a tongue and a lip tie that the hospital failed to diagnose which just made things even more difficult. I, overall, hated my stay at the hospital. I felt like I was not getting any rest at all the whole time I was there. My son didn't like sleeping in the bassinet because why would he? I felt like there were people coming in all of the time and interrupting the little bit of rest that I was trying to get. They were checking on me, checking on the baby, taking temperatures, the photographer, the cleaning people. It was just like people were coming and going. The only person who did not show up who I hoped would show up was the lactation consultant. She did not show up for almost two days which was really, really disappointing. The first few months were pretty hard. I would say they were pretty rough emotionally and physically. When people ask me about my birth, a lot of times, I got comments like, “Well, at least he's healthy” or “Oh, your baby's really big, so it was probably good that you had that C-section.” That really upset me because I understand that it's important for my baby to be healthy. Yes, that is the most important thing. But at the same time, my feelings are valid about it, and my emotions. I felt really robbed of that experience to birth my own child. The fact that I had never felt even a single contraction really was upsetting to me. I felt that my body had really failed me. Yeah. I knew that if I ever were to get pregnant again, I would not want to have another C-section. So let's fast forward to my second pregnancy.I got pregnant again when my son was a little over a year and a half. Like I said, I knew exactly what I didn't want, and that was to have another C-section. When I found out I was pregnant, I pretty much immediately jumped on Facebook group and mom groups trying to do my research and find a truly supportive provider. I did call a birth center here in Charleston, and they told me right away, “We don't do VBACs. Sorry. You can't come here,” which was pretty upsetting because they basically see a VBAC or having had a C-section before is a high-risk pregnancy for your next which really does not make a lot of sense because every pregnancy is different. Just because you had a C-section, there can be so many different reasons. You should not be considered high-risk for your next pregnancy. I found a provider who I thought was VBAC-supportive. It seemed like that was my only option, so I started seeing her. As I was seeing my OB further into my pregnancy, I started asking some questions about birth. I really didn't like some of the answers she had for me. I asked about intermittent monitoring. She said, “No, we can't do that. Hospital policy is that you have to have continuous monitoring.” I didn't love the idea of being strapped to the bed. I wanted to move around freely. That was not going to be an option. I asked about eating. I got the answer, “No, we don't really allow eating while you are in labor. You can have clear fluids.” I was just thinking, “I don't want to eat ice chips while I'm in labor. If I'm hungry, I want to be able to eat.” I asked if I could labor in the bathtub because they did have tubs at the hospital. She said, “No, because of the continuous monitoring, you're not going to be able to get in the tub.” Hearing all of that made me really uncomfortable. Whenever I did ask questions, it almost felt like she didn't really want to talk about it. She didn't really want to talk about my birth plan which was really important to me. Now, at the same time, it was also COVID. I got pregnant with my second literally the week before people started quarantining for COVID. On top of all of these things that I didn't like about the hospital, there were also the COVID restrictions. I had to show up to my appointments in a mask which was totally fine, but the idea of having to labor in a mask made me a little uncomfortable. I was thinking about hiring a doula, and because they were only allowing one support person at the time, that was also not going to be an option. I knew my son wasn't going to be able to see me at the hospital which was something I was really looking forward to. I kept thinking, “Maybe there has to be another option. This can't be my only option here.” I started looking at places farther away. I was like, “Maybe I can travel to another place further away.” I was looking into birth centers around the area and all over South Carolina, really. At some point, I did come across a website that said they were offering VBAC support. I didn't really know what that meant, but I filled out a form. I said, “Hey, I need some help with a provider. I'm seeing an OB, but I'm not feeling super comfortable.” I submitted that form. I want to say that maybe a couple of days or a couple of weeks later, a midwife called me. She was like, “Hey, I'm not in your area, but I actually know a lot of people all over the state. Let me send an email to my network, and we'll see if we can find somebody who can help you.” One day, I got a call from a home birth midwife here in Charleston. She was like, “Hey, I got your message. Tell me how I can help you.” We talked a little bit about home birth. At that point, I was like, “Do I really want a home birth?” It was not something I had really considered.” During that HypnoBirthing class when I was pregnant with my first son, we watched a lot of videos of water births and home births. I always thought it was really cool, and I would love to have that experience, but at that moment, when she asked me, “Hey, would you consider a home birth?” I was like, “I need to think about that for a second.” I talked about it with my husband. I did a lot of research on home birth. I ended up sending her all of my medical records from my first pregnancy. We continued talking and checking. I continued to see my OB, and that was really for a variety of reasons. First of all, I had really good health insurance. All of my visits were covered, so all of the DNA tests, and things like the anatomy scan were covered by my health insurance, and it was just easy to coordinate those things with my OB. I also wanted to continue my care just in case there was something that would pop up that would prevent me from having a home birth and those plans would fall through. I'm a big planner, so I like having not just the plan, but also a plan B and a plan C. Yeah. I also like that established relationship just in case I needed a home birth transfer to the hospital. I've heard stories where moms were treated very differently when they arrived at a hospital with a home birth transfer, and in the case that I would have needed that, I could have just shown up to the hospital and said, “Hey, I'm a patient. I'm here. I'm in labor,” without them knowing that it was really a home birth transfer. I did not tell my OB that I was actually planning a home birth. I think she would have been pretty upset. Maybe she would have fired me. I don't know. But the difference in care that I received from the OB and from the midwife was really, really interesting. It seemed like at my OB appointments, there was a lot of focus on different tests and procedures like my weight. Further down, they wanted to do lots of cervical checks which I all declined. At the same time, when I talked to my midwife, the focus was a lot more on nutrition and on exercise. She was asking, “What do you do to prepare for your VBAC?” Lots of education on birth. There were lots of books that she suggested for me to read. I also started seeing a chiropractor pretty early in the pregnancy. I was doing my homework. I was doing my Spinning Babies exercises. I was so focused on doing everything I could to have the birth that I had envisioned. At some point, my midwife had me do some extra blood draws. She wanted to make sure that my iron levels were okay for the home birth, and they were actually slightly lower than they were supposed to be, so she put me on an iron supplement for a couple of weeks. That was an example of something that the OB never asked about or really cared about. At some point, I was a little bit nervous about the position of my baby. It almost felt like he was lying sideways, and I couldn't really tell. I brought it up to the OB. She was like, “Yeah. Let's get in the ultrasound machine. Let's take a look.” She was trying to feel, but she couldn't really tell. Everything was good. He was head down. Well, I didn't know he was a he because we did not find out the gender. Baby was head down. Everything was okay. I brought up the same thing to the midwife, and it was so funny because she did not need an ultrasound. She just felt. She felt really good. She was like, “Yeah. I know. I feel all of the different body parts. You're head down. You're good.” Of course, she was right. It was just so interesting to see how different things were approached by the two providers. I also hired a doula, and I made sure she was VBAC Link certified. It was really exciting. She was familiar with the podcast that I was, of course, listening to at the time to prepare for my VBAC. At some point, I had a situation with my OB that made me pretty uncomfortable. It was time for the GBS testing, and I had done my research. I made an informed decision. I let her know that I was declining the test. She was not happy to hear it. She kept saying, “Well, if your baby dies–”, and she kept saying that multiple times. It was like, “If your baby dies–”, and I was like, “This is so unprofessional to say it like that.” I totally understand that they need to–Julie:  Oh my gosh. I can't even believe that. Gesa: Yeah. Isn't that horrible?Julie:  That's horrible. Gesa: I understand she needs to educate me on the risks that come with declining certain tests, but that was just not a proper way to communicate that. Julie:  Yeah. Find another way. Find another way. Gesa: Yeah. Right. That situation really confirmed for me home birth was the way to go. I did not want anything to do with this hospital or this OB anymore at that point. I was fully committed to the home birth. I was planning on it. I continued my OB visits more just to check a box. At 37 weeks, my midwife brought over the birthing pool and some supplies. I gathered everything that I needed. She had sent me a list of all of the different supplies that we needed to buy and gather, so I started getting all of that. I created a beautiful birthing space for myself in our bedroom. I had my affirmations up. They were taped to my mirror in the bathroom as daily reminders. I had them hung up in the bedroom with some twinkle lights. I had the picture of the opening flower, and everything was ready. I had my Spotify playlist ready, and I was so excited for baby to come here. Then, at 39 weeks and 1 day, it was early in the morning, like maybe at 6:30 AM. I was lying in bed, and our toddler had climbed into bed with me. I felt a little pop, and I was like, “Hmm, that was weird,” but I didn't really think much of it because pregnancy is weird, and our bodies do all kinds of weird things that we can't explain when we are pregnant. I didn't think much of it. I went back to sleep. An hour later, I got up to go to the bathroom. I sit down on the toilet, and water is gushing out. I was like, “Shoot. What is going on? I'm not peeing. What's happening?” I just realized, “No, my water broke.” I wasn't expecting it at that point because you hear about a lot of women going into 40-41 weeks, 42 weeks, especially with their first pregnancy that they are going into natural labor, so I was so surprised that it happened at 39 weeks and a day. I was feeling a tiny bit of cramping, but definitely did not have any contractions. I texted my husband, “Oh my gosh. My water broke.” He was out for a workout, so he rushed home. I also texted my doula and my midwife just to let them know what was going on, but then the whole day was really uneventful. I was ready and waiting for labor to start. It just didn't. I went on a lot of walks. I tried some curb walking. I bounced on the yoga ball. I ended up getting a last-minute appointment with my chiropractor for a quick adjustment. I really spent all day just trying to get labor started. I took some naps. I also tried using the breast pump for some stimulation to get things going. I got some tiny little contractions. At that time, I thought they were contractions, but now that I know what contractions actually feel like, I realize that was not actually the case. I got some tiny contractions going, but then they fizzled out again. My midwife stopped by a few times to check on me and baby. She had me take my temperature every 4 hours and text it to her just to make sure I wasn't running a fever. Baby was moving normally. She wasn't overly concerned. She assured me that my body was probably just waiting until nighttime when my toddler was in bed and I was relaxed for things to start then. It was weird because I was leaking amniotic fluid all day, so I tried to stay super hydrated and replenish all of that water I was losing. I went to bed and thought, “Okay. This is it. We're going to have a baby maybe early in the morning. Labor is going to start.” Nothing happened. I woke up really early and really disappointed that nothing had happened. My midwife had sent me some information on PROM, so premature rupture of membranes, just to make sure I was making an informed decision. She always gave me the option to go to the hospital. She said that I could go in the evening of when my water broke. She said I could wait until the next day and do whatever I felt comfortable with, but she wanted me to be aware of the dangers with having a long time of broken waters. She also had sent me a recipe to the midwives' brew. That was something we talked about to get labor started. She said, “Something to consider for the next day if you don't have your baby overnight.” My husband went out. He bought the ingredients just in case. It was castor oil, almond butter, apricot nectar, and champagne. It was absolutely disgusting. It actually ruined almond butter for me for at least 2-3 years. I could not have it anymore. It was so gross. Julie:  Oh my gosh. That is so funny. That is funny. Gesa: I took it around 10:00 AM in the morning. At that point, my water had been broken for over 24 hours. I layed down for a nap, and maybe 2 hours later, I started feeling some contractions. They were coming in. I was just laying in bed breathing through them and listening to my HypnoBirthing affirmations and some relaxing music. My husband was actually taking a nap at that time with our son. At some point, things were getting pretty intense. I texted my doula and my midwife. I was trying to time contractions but it was also difficult. They both came over around 2:00 PM and realized pretty quickly that labor was going. They needed to fill that pool because that actually takes a while which was not something I was even thinking about.They quickly got the birthing pool filled. Once I got in the water, it was such a difference. At that point, I had some really, really heavy contractions and I think I got in there around 3:00 PM. It was such a night and day difference. My doula was awesome. She was rubbing my back. She was giving me cold washcloths on my neck. Yeah. She was super helpful. I was laboring in the tub. At some point, I needed to get out to go to the bathroom. As soon as I got out, I instantly regretted that decision because it was so horrible and the contractions were feelings so much stronger when I was not in the water. My husband was still sleeping at that point. I was like, “Okay, is somebody going to wake him up before baby comes?” But I also lost track of time of how long I even was in the pool. They did wake him up at some point. It was really funny because when he lay down for a nap, it was just me laboring in bed by myself. They woke up from the nap, and I was in full, active labor in the birthing pool with the doula and the midwife there, full action going on. He was just like, “Whoa, what's happening?” Yeah. He jumped right into action and helping me out and massaging and all of that good stuff. It was really sweet because my son kept bringing toys. He was a little over 2. He was 2 years and 3 months at that point. He kept bringing over toys. He was playing right next to the pool. He was checking on me. It was just really sweet and really special to have him there. Our dog was also walking around the pool and was really interesting in what was going on. I really lost track of time and of how long I really was in the pool. At some point, I felt some really, really intense pressure. It was almost like my body was pushing on its own without me really actively doing anything. I had heard of the fetal ejection reflex, but I didn't realize that that was what was going on. I didn't realize that baby was already coming. My midwife just looked at me. She was like, “Feeling a little pushy, huh?” I was like, “Yeah, I guess that's what's going on.” It all happened really quickly. My husband got our son situated downstairs because we wanted him to be there, but we didn't want him to be there right as baby was born. We thought that may have been a little bit too much for him, so we got him situated downstairs. Yeah, things happened really quickly. All of a sudden, his head was out. It was really fun because we got to feel his hair, and I did not have another contraction for a minute which was weird because his head was out. It was underwater, and it felt like a really, really long time between contractions. But then he was out with the next one, and my midwife caught him. He came right to my chest. My husband got to announce that he was a boy which I knew all along. We didn't find out his gender, but I just knew he was going to be a boy. My pregnancy was just so similar that I was like, “There's no way he's not a boy.” But yeah. He was born a little after 4:00 PM, so really just 6 hours from when I had the midwives' brew, so that really worked for me. Of course, I cried tears of joy. The amount of emotions I was feeling was just absolutely incredible. The rush of endorphins, I felt so empowered and so strong in that moment, like literally the strongest person in the world. It was awesome. We brought my son up and he got to meet his baby brother within minutes of his birth which was so special and such an amazing experience. Once we got settled a bit, I got to take a shower. I got to eat pasta in my bed, and then also safely cosleep with my baby in my own bed and in my own home which was just the complete opposite of that hospital C-section experience. Yeah, the home birth experience was really healing for me in a way. It gave me closure from my C-section experience. I think because I had the C-section, I just knew what I absolutely did not want, and I think that really helped me fight and prepare for my home birth experience. I still had to call my OB and cancel my 40-week appointment which was probably one of the weirdest phone calls I've ever had to made because I was like, “Yeah, I need to cancel my appointment because my baby is actually here.” They were like, “Wait, where was your baby born? We have no records of this.” I was like, “Yeah, he was born at home.” They were like, “You need to get him checked out immediately.”Julie:  You're like, “Yeah, accident.” Gesa: I was like, “No, we had a professional there. It's all good. Don't worry about it. Let's not talk about it anymore.”Julie:  I love that so much. Okay, I want to talk about a couple of things or maybe just comment. When you were talking about your C-section and how you felt guilty about how maybe he was having trouble nursing or whatever and you were feeling guilty that maybe he had been taken too early or he wasn't ready to be born yet and stuff, I felt that so hard with my C-section baby. I just wanted to validate that because I feel like that is not an uncommon thing. I feel like a lot of us have that concern when we have either a scheduled C-section or an induction that results in a C-section or maybe even an induction that results in a vaginal birth. You can look back at it and feel like, “Oh, maybe I made the wrong choice,” or “Maybe he was taken too early,” or things like that. I just wanted to validate that. Know that I see you, and I hear you, and I feel you. And everybody, not just you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself. I'm not speaking just to you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself because you were making the best decisions that you could with the information that you had available to you at the time. So give yourself some grace. Give yourself some love. I think that's really important is that we navigate our pregnancies and birth after having an unwanted C-section or an unwanted birth experience. Giving ourselves that grace is a really, really important part of it. I did want to talk about the difference in care. You highlighted a few things in your episode about the difference in care between a hospital OB and having a midwife or especially a home birth midwife. In the hospital, you're still going to see a little bit of similarities between midwifery and OBs, although midwifery care in a hospital is a lot more hands-on and a lot more personal and a lot more trusting, generally speaking, of the birth process. I just was thinking this morning about a post. There was a post in not even a VBAC group. It was just a local mom's group in my community. This woman was talking about how it was her first baby. She hasn't had an ultrasound or seen the baby since 10 weeks. She had a 10-week scan, and she hadn't seen the baby since then. She wasn't 20 weeks pregnant yet, but she was almost. She was just like, “I'm just wondering if this is normal. Every time I have an appointment with my OB, I only see him for 2 minutes. I don't feel like this is normal. I have some concerns, but I'm not being able to ask questions,” and things like that. It made me sad. It made me sad for this parent not being cared for in the way that she needs to be. It also made me sad because her experience is not that uncommon. I wanted to say that unfortunately, this is normal. You're not going to usually see your OB for more than a couple of minutes per visit. You're not going to have time to ask a lot of questions and get a lot of answers because hospitals are busy and OBs are busy. Most of them don't have the time or intentionally make the time to give you that kind of attention. It's just how it is. Now, I say most of the time because there are some OBs. I saw briefly an OB for my third pregnancy, and I love her. She was always 45 minutes late. Our appointments were always 45 minutes late. My appointment would be at 1:45, and I wouldn't get in there until 2:00 because she was giving everybody the attention that they needed. A lot of people get frustrated because she was an hour late for the visits, but I wasn't frustrated because I knew that she was giving other people the same attention that she gave to me. That is so, so rare in a hospital setting. I love that you highlighted that. I love that you talked about how your midwife took time to address your concerns, how she monitored your iron levels and gave your iron supplements and your OB didn't. It wasn't even on his or her radar. I don't know if your OB was a boy or girl. I can't remember. Their radar, right? And how your OB needed an ultrasound to confirm baby's position, but your midwife just palpated your belly because midwives are more hands-on. They are more intimately connected to the female body, to the baby, and to the physiologic birth process. Gesa: Yeah. She was more hands-on during the pregnancy, but then during the actual birth, she was very hands-off. She let me do my own thing. Julie:  Yeah! Yeah. Gesa: She wasn't constantly in my space and interrupting my labor. Julie:  Right. Gesa: She would come in very quietly and very softly. She would check on the baby and check on me, and if everything was good, she was back out the door. She let me labor in my own space and at my own pace which was awesome. Julie:  Right. I was going to talk about that next actually. I've been keeping notes while you have been talking because during your labor, you said you felt that fetal ejection reflex, and your midwife was like, “Oh, feeling pushy are we?” I know exactly what that looks like. I'm not a midwife, but I'm a doula. I've been a doula and a birth photographer, and I know what it looks like when a woman's body is progressing. But in a hospital setting, what do we do? We connect you to monitors. We put an IV in you. We sit at a nurse's station and watch the monitor. That's how we know how you are doing. We use ultrasounds to determine baby's position. We use data and numbers. We look at data to decide how the parent and the baby are doing. But in midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwifery care, you use a completely set of tools. We use observation. We are watching. We are listening. We are seeing. We are noticing the movements that are shifting and the sounds as they evolve and change. We are seeing the belly moved. We are seeing all of the different things, and it's a completely different approach. I know exactly what an unmedicated parent looks like as they are getting close to transition. I know the noises that change, what sounds are made, what different subtleties there are. You just learn these things when you actually just watch a laboring person, and notice what is happening. But they don't do that in a hospital. An OB and nurses– probably nurses because they are in the room a little bit more, but your OB won't show up until you start pushing. They don't know what the signs are. All they have is the data on the machine to see if you are doing. I know what approach I approve. Let's just say that. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of home births, especially for VBAC, when the parent feels comfortable there. I just really loved that. My appointments when I had my three VBACs at home, every time I saw my midwife, we would chat for an hour. She did talk about nutrition. I had preeclampsia for my first. My blood pressure was high. I was like, “I don't want high blood pressure,” so she gave me all of these nutritional things to do to help take care of my heart and help make sure that my blood pressure wasn't high. But then what would happen in the hospital? They wait until your blood pressure is high, then they treat it. They don't work on preventing it or making you healthier or things like that. I just feel like there is such a big difference in care. It's not for everybody. That's not where everybody feels safe, but I wanted people to know that home-birth midwives are very skilled. They are very hands-on throughout the pregnancy and oftentimes hands-off during the delivery because we trust these bodies to do what they need to do. Sometimes they do need help, but also observing and watching can help us know when a little bit of extra help is needed. It's such a fun little dance that can be done throughout pregnancy and labor. It's kind of like an art form as much as it is a medical side of things. Midwives are not chicken-dancing hippies that run around your room with incense and pray for a safe delivery. They are skilled medical professionals that have high levels of training and care and can practice in very similar ways that you see in a hospital setting just without all of the extra crap and interventions that are there. Obviously, they can't do surgery, and depending on your state and where you live, there are different restrictions about what out-of-hospital midwives can and cannot do. But a lot of people are surprised to find out how much training and knowledge and skills and procedures that out-of-hospital midwives have access to, so I wanted to talk about that. Yeah. Anyway, Gesa, do you want to give one piece of advice to anybody preparing for a VBAC right now? What would you tell anybody?Gesa: I think a lot of people, when they go to the doctor, they see their OB and they heavily rely on what they are telling them. They almost glorify the OB's advice in a way. We have got to remember that these doctors work for us. We don't work for them, so if we don't feel comfortable with what they are saying, we have the option to go somewhere else, and to take our business somewhere else. The doctors work for us. We don't work for them. It is never too late to switch your provider. I was going back and forth whenever I was pregnant with my first, and I was very late into my pregnancy. I kept thinking, “What if I just find a provider who does breech births?” In a way, I wish I had, but then you never know what actually would have happened, so it's hard to say how that would have changed my experience. I could have still ended up with a C-section, but I could have. I could have changed my provider at 38 weeks if I had contacted somebody, but I was just so overwhelmed by the whole situation that I didn't. But I was so glad that when I wasn't feeling comfortable with my OB during my second pregnancy and with what she was saying, that I took the step to find somebody who was truly supportive and who was able to help me with the birth that I had envisioned. Julie:  Yes. I absolutely love that. I think that's great advice. You make a very good point. It's never too late to switch providers. I think that the single most important thing that you can do to affect your birth outcome is to choose a provider who operates in the way that you want to birth just naturally. It's just what they do anyway. I feel like if you do that, then that's half the battle. Gesa: Yeah. 100%. I know some people feel very comfortable at the hospital, and a lot of people are not good candidates for a home birth. Julie:  Yeah, and that's where they should be. Gesa: When I told people that I was planning a home birth, I got a lot of people saying, “Are you sure? That's so scary.” If that's scary to you, then you shouldn't do it. If you feel safer in a hospital, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. Go to the hospital. Have your baby there if that's where you feel comfortable. For me, just the thought of having to fight for certain things while I'm in labor and very vulnerable wasn't something I wanted to do. I wanted to focus on laboring and birthing and just having that experience. I did not want to get into fights with OBs and nurses over whatever I could or could not do while at the hospital. That just did not sound like a good idea to me. Julie:  Yep. Absolutely. I agree, 100%. All right, well thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for sharing your story with us. I'm super proud of you. You said that after your baby was born, you felt like the strongest woman ever. I agree. You are the strongest woman ever along with all of the women listening right now. We are truly Women of Strength, and no matter how your birth outcome ends, you are strong. You are powerful. I'm very grateful to each of you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Happy New Year, Women of Strength! Meagan and Julie share an exciting announcement about the podcast that you don't want to miss. While they chat about topics to look forward to this year, they also jump right in and share stats about cervical checks and duration between pregnancies. We can't wait to help you prepare for your VBAC this year!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Ready? Meagan: Happy New– Julie: Oh, are we supposed to say it together? Oh, sorry. Okay, I'm ready. Let's go again. Meagan: No, you were just saying okay, but let's do it together. Okay, ready? Remember I did this last time? Julie: Okay, 1, 2, 3– Meagan and Julie: Happy New Year!Julie: No, it was not right. Meagan: Well, we're going to leave it. You guys, we've been trying to say Happy New Year at the same time. There is a delay, I'm sure, on both sides, but Happy New Year, you guys. Welcome to The VBAC Link. It is 2025, and we are excited for this year. Oh my goodness. Obviously, you have probably caught on that there is another voice with me today. Julie: Hello. Meagan: I have Julie. You guys, I brought Julie on today because we have a special announcement. I didn't let her get away for too long. I didn't want her to go. I couldn't. If you haven't noticed, I've been bringing her on. I'm like, “Can you do this episode with me? Do you want to do this episode with me? Do you want to do this episode with me?”And now, at least for the next little bit, she's going to be doing her own episodes. She is helping me out. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: We have been doing two episodes a week for almost a year now, and it's a lot. It's a lot. Julie: You have been such a champ. Meagan: Oh my goodness. So that's what we've been up to. I decided that Julie needed to help me. She was so gracious to say, “Yeah, I'll do it.” Get this, you guys. She was nervous the first time. Julie: I was like, “I don't know what I'm doing.”Meagan: But she totally does know what she's doing. But yeah, so you will be hearing every so often Julie's voice solo. She is going to be hosting the show solo, so you will be hearing a little bit of a new intro with her and I where we are both talking so you don't get confused, but I don't think it is very confusing. Julie has been with us since the very beginning because her and I created the company. It's been so fun to have her here, so thank you, Julie, for helping me out. Julie: You are always welcome. It's always a pleasure. Meagan: I'm trying to think. I want to talk about 2025 and some things that we have coming up as far as stories go. As a reminder, if you have not subscribed to the show, please do so. As you subscribe, it will send you the episodes weekly. Right now, like I said, we are doing two a week, so soak it all up. We have so many great stories. We have stories from OB/GYNs. They are doing Q&As. We have polyhydramnios. Julie: Polyhydramnios. Meagan: Yes. I always want to say dramnios. We are going to be talking about that because we have a lot of people who have been asking about more unique things. Poly is not necessarily unique, but it's not talked about, so we are going to talk about the high fluid, low fluid, unsupportive providers, and if you have been with us for a while, the biggest thing that we talk about is supportive providers. Julie: Mhmm.Meagan: Maybe it's not the biggest, but it's one of the biggest. We talk about finding a supportive provider all of the time. It is so important. Then we've got vaginal birth after multiple Cesarean, twin births, gestational diabetes, PROM– if you're new to that one, that is premature rupture of membranes meaning that the waters break, but labor doesn't quite kick in. Whave else do we have? We actually are going to do some re-airing. We are going to rebroadcast some of our older episodes that we just think are gems and wonderful or have connections with people like Ali Levine. She came back on recently and we want to bring back her episode. Dr. Stu– just some really great episodes from the past and thinking about how long ago that was, Julie– Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: As I've been going through these podcasts, holy cow. Some of these are in our 70's or there was actually one that was out 17th episode or something like that. Julie: We need to re-air the dad's episode. Do you remember that one time when we had all of those dads on? Meagan: Yes. Julie: That was so good. Meagan: That was so good. It was a lot of fun. Julie: You need to put that in a spot. It was so good. I remember, I can just be taken back to us in the studio recording and calling each of these dads. It was so cool. Meagan: It was. It was really fun to hear their take on it and their opinion of doulas, their opinion of VBAC, their opinion of birth and how they were feeling going into birth, and how they felt when their wives were like, “Hey, I want to do this.” Yeah. Do you know what? That's for sure. We will make sure that is re-aired as well because I do know that we get people saying, “Are there any episodes that can help my partner or my husband?” because they want to really learn how to get the support for them or help them understand why. Or Lynn. Guys, there are so many of these past episodes that we will be bringing back. Julie: Lynn's episode was so great. Meagan: That was so great. We're going to be having home births. Forceps– VBAC after forceps or failure to progress or failure to descend or big baby. We've got so many great things coming this year, so I'm really, really excited. I also wanted to share more about what we've going on the blog. We have had weekly blogs, so if you haven't already subscribed to our email list, go over to thevbaclink.com and subscribe. We send out weekly emails filled with tips or recent episodes. We have a lot of questions in The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. We see some repetitive questions in there, so we respond to those via email. Those are really good. We've got cervical checks. When is it good to do a cervical check? When is it not good? Julie: Umm, never? Meagan: When is it not good to do a cervical check? When are they really necessary? What do they tell us? We're going to be diving into that. We have a blog about that. Do you want to talk about that for a second, Julie? Let's talk about that. Julie: Okay. I understand that there is nuance. That's the thing about birth. There is nuance with everything. There is context with everything. It just reminds me of the recent election and things like that while we are recording. There are all of these one-liners are being thrown around on both sides. One sentence can be taken out of context in big ways when you don't have the context surrounding the sentence. For both sides, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I'm sorry if that's triggering for anybody. I know there are a lot of people upset right now. But the same thing with cervical checks. Isn't that true with all of life? All of life, all of birth, and all of VBAC, there is nuance and context that's important. I would say that most of the time, most of the time, cervical checks are not necessary. They only tell us where you've been. They don't tell us where you're going. They are not a predictor of anything. I've had clients get to 8 centimeters and not have a baby for 14 hours. No kidding. I've had clients push for 10 hours. I've had people hang out at 5 centimeters for weeks, then go into labor and have the baby super fast and also super slow. It doesn't tell us anything. However, there are times when it might be helpful. I use that really, really carefully because it can only give us so much information. I feel like sometimes the cervix can swell if you've been in labor for a really long time, or if the baby is in a bad position, so if labor has slowed or hasn't been progressing as much as expected– and I use that term very loosely as well. There might be a suspicion for cervical swelling. Having a cervical check can confirm that, and having a swollen cervix will change the direction of your care. I would say that maybe an important question to ask– and this is a good question for any part of your care– is, “How will this procedure, exam, intervention, etc. influence my care moving forward?” Because if it's not going to influence your care moving forward at all, then is it necessary? Meagan: Why do it?Julie: Right? So, a swollen cervix, maybe checking baby's position. You can tell if baby's low enough. You can see if their head is coming asynclitic or with a different type of presentation. Again, with a suspicion that it might be affecting labor's progress.Meagan: You can check if they are asynclitic. Julie: But, how would your care change if you find out that baby is asynclitic? What would you do if that is the result of the cervical check? If the answer is nothing, then I don't know. But also knowing that baby's position or knowing that you have a swollen cervix, there are things that you can do to help labor progress in the case of a malpositioned baby or for a swollen cervix. First of all, back off on Pitocin or take some Benadryl or things like that that can help with those things. But honestly, I think most of the time, cervical checks are another way for the system to chart and keep records, that they are doing their job, that things are happening normally (in air quotes, “normally”) so they can have their backs covered. It's really funny. There are other ways to tell baby's position. There are other ways to notice. Midwives, especially out-of-hospital midwives know all of these things. They can gather all of this data without cervical checks, without continous monitoring, and all of that stuff. But in the hospital setting, they can literally sit at a desk and watch you on the strip. That's the only way they know how to get information. They don't know how to palpate the belly. They aren't as familar with– I mean, probably nurses more so than OBs. Meagan: Patterns. Julie: Right? Labor patterns, the sounds, how mom is moving her body and things like that. Those are all things that you can use to tell where a laboring person is at in their labor without having to do cervical checks. But anyway, that was a long little tangent. Meagan: No, that's good. I love that you are pointing that out. Is it going to change your care? If you are being induced, a lot of times, they are going to want to do a cervical exam. You may want a cervical exam as well so you can determine what induction method is going to best fit your induction. Julie: Yeah, that's true. Meagan: Like starting that, but even before labor, I want to point out that when it comes to cervical exams, I see it time and time again within the community, within Instagram, within Utah here– we have birth forums here in Utah– I see it all of the time. “I am 38 weeks. I got checked to day. I am not dilated. It's not going to happen. My provider is telling me that my body probably doesn't know how to go into labor and that I should be induced or that my chances of going into labor by 40 weeks (that's a whole other conversation) is low because I'm not dilated yet at 38 weeks,” or they are the opposite and they are like, “I feel like I can't do anything because I'm walking around at 6 centimeters.”Then they don't go into labor. Julie: Baby will come right away as soon as labor starts. Meagan: Yeah, or the person who has been walking around at 38 weeks, 39 weeks, 40 weeks, 40.5 weeks at 0 centimeters has their baby before the person who has been walking around at 6 centimeters. It really doesn't tell you a whole lot other than where you are in that very minute and second that you are checked. Now, if it is something that is going to impact your care, that is something to consider. Also, if it's something that's going to impact your mental health, usually it's going to be negatively. Sometimes, it's positive, but I feel like we get these numbers in our head, and then we get them checked and– Julie: You get stuck on it, yeah. Meagan: You get stuck on it which is normal because of the way that we have been taught out in the birth world. Think about it also mentally. Is a cervical exam in this very moment to tell you where you are right now worth messing up your mental space? Maybe. Maybe not. That's a very personal opinion. But really, it's so important to know that cervical exams really just tell you where you are right now. Not where you're going to be, not where you're going to get– Julie: And not how fast you're going to get there either. I do not trust babies. I always say that. I do not trust babies. Meagan: You don't trust babies? Julie: They have a mind of their own. They are so unpredictable. Yeah, I don't trust them. I'll trust them after they are born, for sure. But before, no way dude. They trick me all of the time. I really appreciate how you brought up the induction thing because I feel like a cervical check at the beginning of an induction and after a certain amount of time that the induction is started is helpful information because it tells you where you started from. It tells you if the induction methods that they are using are working. I feel like that's helpful to know because you don't want to sit there with an induction method forever if it's not working. I feel like also, why the induction is being recommended is important too. If baby needs to come out fast because something is seriously wrong, then more frequent cervical checks or a more aggressive induction may be needed. But if it's something that you can wait a few days for, then is the induction really necessary. But that's really the context there too. Context and nuance, man. Meagan: Yep. I also think really quickly before we get off of cervical exams that if you are being induced, a cervical exam to assess if you are even in a good spot to induce, assuming that it is not an emergent situation where we have to have this baby out right now. You are like, “I want to get induced,” then you are maybe half a centimeter. Julie: The BISHOP score, yeah. You are low and closed and hard. Meagan: You're maybe 40% effaced. You're really posterior. You guys, that might be a really good indicator that it's not time to have a baby.Julie: Right. Meagan: There we go. Okay, so other things on the blog– preparing for your VBAC. We talk about that a lot. We also talk about that in our course, on the podcast, in the community, on Instagram, and on Facebook. That's a daily chat. We have blogs on that. Our favorite prenatal– you guys have heard us talk about Needed now for over a year. We love them. We truly, truly believe in their product, so we do have blogs on prenatal nutrition and prenatal care. What food, what drinks, and what prenatal you should take. Then recovering from a C-section– I think a lot of people don't realize that our community also has a whole C-section umbrella where we understand that there are a lot of different scenarios. Some may not choose a VBAC which is also a blog on how to choose between a VBAC and a Cesarean. They might not choose a VBAC or they might go for a VBAC and it ends in a repeat Cesarean, or they opt for an elective Cesarean. These are situations that lead to recovering from a Cesarean. We have blogs and a section in our course, and then we even have a VBAC– not a VBAC. Oh my gosh. I can't get Facebook and VBAC together. We have a CBAC Facebook group as well called The CBAC Link Community, so if you are somebody who is not sure or you maybe had a Cesarean or you are opting for a Cesarean, that might be a really great community for you. I believe that it's an incredible community. Let's see, the length between pregnancies is one. Do you want to talk about that?Julie: Oh my gosh. I see this so much. Meagan: Daily. Julie: People are asking, “How long should I wait? I want to have the best chances of a VBAC. How long should I wait before getting pregnant?” Or, “My doctor said I have to have 18 months between births and I will only be 17 months between births so it excludes me from VBAC.” Meagan: Well, and it gets confusing. Julie: Yes. It does get confusing. Meagan: Because is it between or is it conception? What is it? Julie: Right. Is it between births? Is it between conception? Is it from birth to conception? Birth to birth? Conception to conception? I don't think it's conception to conception, but thing is that everybody will have their thing. I hear it really commonly 18 months birth to birth. I hear 2 months birth to birth quite a bit. Meagan: 2 months? Julie: Sorry, 12 months. Meagan: I was like 2? I've never heard that one. Julie: 12 months birth to birth. Oh man. Meagan: 24 months. Julie: I need some caffeine. 2 years, not 2 months. 2 years between births. Meagan: 24 months. Julie: There are a whole bunch of recommendations. Here are the facts about it. The jury is still out about what is the most optimal time. There is one study. There are three credible studies that we link in our blog. There are three credible studies. One says that after 6 months, there's no increased risk of uterine rupture. So 6 months between– I'm sorry. 6 months from birth to conception. Meagan: Birth to conception. Julie: So that would be 15 months from birth to birth. There's another study that says 18 months from birth to birth, and there's another study that says 2 years from birth to birth. These are all credible studies. So, who knows? Somewhere between 15 months to 2 years. I know that the general recommendation for pregnancies just for your body– this is not talking about uterine rupture– to return to its– I wouldn't say pre-pregnancy state because you just don't really get back there, but for your body to be fully healed from pregnancy is a year after birth. From a year from birth to conception is the general recommendation. But we know that there is such a wide variety of stories. There is a lot of context involved. There are providers who are going to support you no matter your length. This is circling back to provider choice and why it's so important. If one provider says, “No,” and they want 2 years from birth to birth, then bye Felicia. Go find another provider because there is someone who is going to support you. There is someone who is going to do it rather than be like, “Oh, well, we will just let you try.” They are going to support you and be like, “Yeah. Here are the risks. Here is what I'm willing to do, and let's go for it.” I think that's really important as well. Meagan: Yeah, this is probably one of the most common questions. Sorry, guys. I was muted and chatting. It's one of the most common questions, and like she said, there are multiple studies out there. It's kind of a complicated answer because it could vary. Overall, the general studies out there are anywhere between 18 to 24 months. 24 months being what they are showing is probably the most ideal between birth to birth. A lot of people out there still think that it's birth to conception, so they have to wait 2 years before even trying to get pregnant. Then I mean, I got a message the other day from someone. They were like, “Hey, our hospital policy,” which I thought was interesting– not that she was saying this, but that it was a policy. “Our hospital policy is that if I conceive sooner than 9 months after a Cesarean, they will not accept me.” Julie: Boom. Go find another hospital. Meagan: I was like, okay. That's weird. Julie: I know. Meagan: And that's 9 months, so that would be 18 months from birth to birth. Julie: Right. Meagan: Then you can go to another provider, and they're different. This is my biggest takeaway with this. Look at the studies. We have them in our blog. They're there. Look at them. Tune into your intuition. What do you need for your family? What do you want for your family? What feels right for you? Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I mean, we have many people who have had VBACs before the 18th-month mark. Aren't you 15 months? Julie: No, mine was 23 months birth to birth. Meagan: Oh, birth to birth. Okay. I thought you were a little sooner. Julie: I conceived, what was that? Meagan: Mine was 22 and 23. I was a 22 and then my other one was 23, I think. It was something like that. It was right around 2 years. Tune into what it is. Yes, we say this, and someone has said, “Well, yeah. People have done it, but that's not what's recommended.” Okay, that's true. Julie: Yeah, recommended by who? Recommended by who? Because like I said, three different studies have three different recommendations. What does ACOG say? I don't think ACOG even has an official recommendation do they? Meagan: My mind says 24 months. Julie: I think they say something like a pregnancy window doesn't automatically exclude somebody from having a VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. You guys, we have that. We also have stories coming up with shorter durations. We have epidural blogs, and how to choose if you want an epidural or not, and then what happens when an epidural comes into play. Maybe I need caffeine too. I can't even speak. But when they come into play, and so many facts, stats, and stories on the blog and on the podcast. You guys, it's going to be a great year. It's 2025. I'm excited. I'm excited to have you on, Julie. It's going to be so great. I'm excited to bring some of our really old, dusty episodes back to life. Julie: Polish them up. Meagan: Yeah. I'm really excited about that. And then some of the weeks, we've been doing this since October, I think, we've got some specialty weeks where it's VBAC after multiple Cesarean week, and you'll have two back to back. We might have some weeks like that in there that have similar stories so you can binge a couple in a row that are something you are specifically looking for. Okay, as a reminder, we are always looking for a review. Before I let you go, you can go to Google at “The VBAC Link”. You can go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I don't know about Google Play. I actually don't know that because I don't have it. Julie: I don't think Google Play has podcasts anymore. But also, you can't rate it on Spotify. Meagan: You can rate it, but you can't review it. Julie: Oh, yeah. You can rate it, so you can give it 5 stars. That's right. Meagan: If you guys wouldn't mind, give us a review. If you can do a written review, that's great. Honestly, you can do stars then go somewhere else and do a written review. We love your reviews. They truly help. I know I've said this time and time again, but they help other Women of Strength find this podcast, find these inspiring stories, and find the faith and the empowerment and the education that they need and deserve. Thank you guys for sticking with us. Happy New Year again, and we will see you soon. Julie: Bye!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We can't believe we have arrived at the last episode of 2024! This year has brought so many incredible and empowering births. We loved hearing how each of you fought for your birth goals, magnified your voices, and showed your strength. In today's episode, Meagan sums up The VBAC Link's 2024 achievements and shares some of the exciting things she has in store for 2025. The VBAC Link Supportive Provider ListThe VBAC Link Doula DirectoryHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey guys, it's Meagan. Guess what? Today is our last 2024 episode. I cannot believe it is the end of the year. I absolutely cannot believe it. It feels like just yesterday that we started doing two episodes a week, and here we are 11 months later. We started in February. You guys, it has been such a great year. We have had so many incredible episodes from placental abruption, faith over fear, breech VBACs, post-dates, what hospital policies mean,and National Midwifery Week. One of my favorites, well actually, two of my favorites because he came on twice, was Dr. Fox. We had Dr. Fox a couple of times. We've had doula tips from VBAC episodes. We've had some fun episodes where we've had some VBAC Link-certified doulas as cohosts. Oh my gosh, so many great things. I don't know if you noticed, but in October, we started doing a themed week. Every two episodes in one month was a theme. For October, we had midwifery. It was National Midwifery Week so we talked about midwives and the stats about midwives. We had CNM Paige come on with our very own Lily who talked more about midwifery care, what does it look like, how to choose, can a midwife support VBAC, and all of that fun, fun stuff. And then in November, it was Veteran's Day so we had some military mamas on there and more about how to navigate that. We talked a little bit about Tricare and tips about navigating birth as a servicemember or as a significant other. That was really, really fun.This month, we touched on uterine abnormalities. We had Flannery talking about her bicornuate uterus and more about specific types of uteruses and what that means. It's so weird to think, but there are different types of uteruses, you guys. That doesn't mean that if you have a different type of uterus that you can't VBAC. It may mean that you may be faced with some challenges like a breech baby or something like that, but we wanted to share more about that because that's not talked about. But it's not going to stop. We have got that coming all year. 2025 is going to have a lot of really fun, specific episodes. The reason why I did this is because I wanted to have a whole week in two episodes where people could come and just binge two specific episodes that they may be looking for. We have a lot of people writing in saying, “Hey, I'm looking for VBAC after multiple Cesareans. Hey, I'm looking for breech stories. Hey, I would like to hear more healing CBAC stories or planned Cesarean stories.” We wanted to have it so they could just do two episodes back to back.Then of course, there are episodes throughout the whole podcast that we have that you can go back and find, but this way, you can find it in one week, two episodes back to back. We've got things like CBAC coming, VBAC after multiple Cesareans. We've got breech. We've got OB week. That's going to be fun. Oh man, I'm trying to think. So many other things. Special scars. We have a special scars month. We are just going to have months where it's typically going to be that second week where it will be a specific theme and topic. Don't forget to check that out coming up in 2025. Like I said, we started that up in October. Okay, so some other really fun and exciting things coming up, I do have a surprise for you, but unfortunately, you're going to have to wait until 2025. I'm really excited for this series. Yeah. It's going to be so good. Make sure to come back next week in 2025 to learn more about a surprise that I have coming your way. Then, in addition to that surprise and our themed weeks, I'm actually going to be rebroadcasting some of our old episodes. As you know, we are getting up there. We are at 365 episodes today which is so dang exciting. I cannot thank you guys enough for continuing to support this podcast, for coming back, listening, downloading these episodes, and just being here with us. We see you in our community on Facebook. We see you on Instagram. We see you downloading and listening. We are getting messages in regards to these stories and how much they are connecting with people.You guys, these stories are incredible. Just a reminder also, we are always accepting submissions. Now, we can't get to every submission because we do get a lot of submissions which is so fun to go through. We share them on our social media if we can't sometimes share them on the podcast, but please, if you have a story that you would like to submit and share them with other Women of Strength who are coming after you and are wanting to hear these empowering messages, go to thevbaclink.com/share, I believe, and submit your podcast story. Okay, going back. We are rebroadcasting episodes. I have gone back and listened to probably 10 or 12 episodes. Some of our really, really amazing episodes, and I've found some nuggets after re-listening that I'm pulling through and giving tips. We're going to have extra tips, extra links, and also if there have been updated things or updated studies from 2018 that have now been updated, we want to make sure that we freshen up these episodes and bring them back to more recent episodes. If you have a favorite episode that you would like to hear rebroadcasted or one that you listen to on repeat, will you let us know? Email us at info@thevbaclink.com and let us know what your favorite episode is and why, or if you are looking for some more information or want us to elaborate more on a topic that maybe we have discussed but didn't go too far into detail that I can maybe go into deeper detail about. Okay, I'm trying to think, you guys. We've had so many amazing things this year. Blogs– we have been pumping out blogs like crazy. There are so many things from preparing for your VBAC, 5 things to do before you get pregnant, recovering from a Cesarean birth. You guys, if you've been with us for a while, you know we absolutely love and adore Needed. We wholeheartedly love and trust everything they produce. We love them. They have really been so gracious to offer us a wonderful 20% off discount code, so don't forget that. That is still valid. You can go to thisisneeded.com and type in VBAC20 and get 20% off your order. We talk more about why prenatal nutrition matters. We talk about creating your ideal hospital environment. We talk about C-section scar massage and why it's important. That is a big one that isn't talked about enough. We talk about hiring doulas, things to put on your registry, more about red raspberry leaf tea. We talk about heartburn, Tums, and also what else Tums can do to help us in our VBAC. So many things. We talk about positions and using the ball. Oh my gosh, just so many incredible things. We've got so many blogs coming at thevbaclink.com/blogs so make sure to check out the blog and learn more about these topics. Membrane sweeps, VBAC after multiple Cesareans, uterine rupture, if you're looking for that VBAC provider, definitely check out that blog about how to find out if you need to switch your provider. Then of course, we have our VBAC course. You guys, I love our course so much. Another big reason why we are going to be re-airing our episodes is so that we can keep updating our course. Birth in general is updating all of the time. This course– Julie and I created it a long time ago, and it is my baby. I am so excited for this course because I have seen so many people get the information that they need, feel more empowered and equipped to have a VBAC, then we actually have a birth worker course. The birth worker course is to certify VBAC doulas, our birth workers, and it is accredited. It is 8 ICEA credits, so if you have a doula that hasn't been in our course yet,  maybe suggest that to them or if you are a birth worker listening, I highly suggest it. We have a VBAC Link Doula directory, so if you are looking for a doula or, like I said, you are a birth worker and you want to be found, we want to help you be found. You can find a doula at thevbaclink.com/findadoula, and if you are a birth worker, you can check out your area. California, I know needs more doulas. Texas, there are a lot of states that need more doulas. We would love to add you to your family.Okay, you guys. I'm trying to think what else. Oh my gosh. I could not leave without saying this. This year, we updated our provider list. It is on Instagram. You can go the The VBAC Link at Instagram. Click on our linktree in our bio, and it is the top one to find a supportive provider in your area. Now, if you have a provider that should be on this list or if you are a provider and wantt o be on this list, please email us at info@thevbaclink.com or you can email us on Instagram so we can get your provider listed. We really need providers who accept VBAC after multiple Cesareans, breech VBAC, and who are just VBAC supportive in general. You guys, it is so stinking silly and stupid how hard it is to sometimes find a provider. Please check out that form. If your provider is supportive, please, please, please let us know so we can get them listed. Okay, you guys, I think that is about everything. It has been such a great 2024. I am so grateful again for you guys. I hope you will continue to join us for 2025 because we do have more incredible episodes coming your way from a lot of VBA2Cs. We have polyhydramnios (high fluid). We have HBACs. We have CBACs. We're going to have a couple of OBs actually and special scars. So many great things. We will catch you in 2025. I hope you guys have a fantastic new year. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Women of Strength! We have another beautiful VBAC birth story for you today from our friend, Georyana. Georyana shares how she went from having an unplanned Cesarean with her first birth to a planned HBAC but unexpected breech delivery!During her first postpartum period, Georyana experienced postpartum preeclampsia, depression, and anxiety. She and Meagan dive into coping tools and resources available for anyone else going through the same.While prepping for her VBAC, Georyana also talks about the power she felt while listening to other stories on The VBAC Link Podcast. She knew she had to give her body the chance to show what it was capable of. “If it could happen for her, it could happen for me. Why disqualify myself? Why disqualify my body?”Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. Merry Christmas to you. It's so fun to be recording today. It's actually not even October. It's September when we are recording, but it's so fun to think how close we are to Christmas. I hope you guys are having an amazing day, and if you are listening the day after Christmas, I hope you had an amazing Christmas. We have our friend, Georyana, with us today, and she is from Florida. Hello, love. How are you? Georyana: I'm doing well. How are you? Meagan: I am so, so great. I was going to say that as you may hear, she's got her little one on board, so we may hear all of the little baby coos and noises. What is your baby's name? Georyana: Her name is Sophia Victoria. Meagan: Sophia Victoria. I love it. I'm so happy she's here. I actually love when we have babies because I don't really hear those noises anymore. I hear them as a doula for a minute, but I miss those little coos. It's so fun. Okay, like I was saying, she is from Florida. She's a stay-at-home mom of two beautiful babies, a three-year-old and this one-month-old that she's got with us. She works part-time remotely and is a Christian and serves as a worship leader for the youth group worship team. Is that correct?Georyana: Yes. Meagan: Awesome. I love that. She says that she's officially started homeschooling her toddler this year which is super exciting. That is exciting. We've had so many moms on the podcast lately who are like, “I've quit my job. I'm homeschooling,” or “My full-time job is homeschooling.” That's amazing. Georyana: Yeah. Yeah. It really is just to be able to soak in all of these moments with your kids. Time flies so fast. You just want to treasure everything. Meagan: It's so true. It really does. I have a 7th grader which is crazy, so yeah. Super crazy. Remind me, you used Needed's iron?Georyana: Yes. I've actually used it for postpartum.Meagan: Yes. I wanted to talk about that because we talk about their prenatals and all of the other things to do during pregnancy. We haven't really talked about the iron, so can we talk a little bit about why you're taking iron and how it's been?Georyana: Yeah, so after this pregnancy funny enough which is something I'll tell during my story, but I passed out after I gave birth. I believe it was due to a lot of blood loss and low hemoglobin, so after I gave birth, I kept taking my prenatals, but my prenatals only had 15 milligrams of iron in them. That's when I decided to go for Needed. I had heard of a lot of amazing reviews. I had heard about it too on The VBAC Link. I'm only taking one additional per day, so I'm taking around 30 milligrams of iron. Meagan: Have you noticed a difference?Georyana: Tremendously. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely less fatigue, more energy. I was getting dizzy a lot during the early days of postpartum and breastfeeding, so that helped a lot too. Meagan: That's what I was going to say. It's probably helping you breastfeed as well. Georyana: Yeah. It's definitely an amazing supplement. Meagan: That's so awesome to hear. I believe in Needed's products wholeheartedly, so it's so fun to see that other people are loving it too. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that really quickly, then we are going to turn the time over to you to share these stories. This is from nnoah and it says, “Generational trauma”. It says, “This podcast and the Facebook group have been a godsend to me. After my 56-hour failed induction and emergency C-section due to very low heart decelerations with my daughter, I told my husband I would be happily scheduling my C-sections from now on. My sister-in-law told me I could VBAC, but I had no hope that my body could birth after such a drawn-out process that ended in ‘failure'. My mom had three C-sections herself with the first being highly traumatic, and I never realized how much her birth experience has influenced my own physiological state as I approached labor and delivery. I researched everything with my first from breastfeeding to infant development and sleep, but I did not read a single book or take a single class on birth. Now, I realize it was because of how much fear and trauma I was carrying around with me from my mother's experiences. I walked into birth ready to fail because I didn't think I could do it. I wasn't tough enough.”She says, “After listening to this podcast, it has me believing in my body and preparing my mind even more before we try to conceive our next baby. I have begun working through my birth with How to Heal a Bad Birth,” which we absolutely love if you want a good book on how to heal a bad birth. That is one of our favorites. It says, “I've already interviewed a VBAC-Link certified doula to assist me in my next birth when we conceive. The resources, podcast, and recommendations here have had me anticipating my next birth with excitement rather than dread. I couldn't be more grateful for this resource. Thank you.” Wow. So many things within that review. I one, am so thankful for that amazing review, and I want you to know that we are here for you and this community and these stories are here to help empower you even further going into your next birth. I love that she said that she had a doula before she was even conceived. She's found the doula she's going to hire, and as soon as she conceives, she can hire that doula. As a reminder, just like she said, we have a VBAC directory with VBAC-certified doulas. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula and look for a doula in your area.Okay, mama. Oh, look at this cute little baby with a full head of hair. Georyana: Yeah, she had a lot of hair. That's how she was born, with a lot of hair. Meagan: Her hair was probably born first. It's so long, oh my gosh. Oh, I'd love to turn the time over to you to share these stories of yours. Georyana: Okay. Well, just like every VBAC, it starts with a C-section. Mine was in 2021 with my first son. It was an overall healthy pregnancy quote-on-quote. Every prenatal visit was normal for the most part. There was nothing out of whack. I do want to be transparent and say that I did not eat healthy or exercise knowing that I was supposed to. I remember working at this part-time job, and literally after I was done clocking out, I would go straight for the Chick-fil-A. It was Chick-fil-A every day. I ended up gaining around 87 pounds during my pregnancy. Meagan: Wow, okay. Georyana: I was 215 when I delivered. At around 39 weeks with my OB/GYN, she was like, “I want to schedule a C-section because your baby's measuring really big.” We did the whole– I forget the word– where they actually check the baby's weight. Meagan: Oh, like a growth measurement in an ultrasound. Georyana: Yeah, she was like, “This baby is already a 10-pounder.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I was freaking out because I really wanted to give birth naturally. That was something I had told her about, but she was like, “No, let's schedule a C-section.” We were going back and forth, and she was like, “Okay, well at least we are going to get an induction date.” She set up an induction date for March 15th. It was a Monday. I started going into labor. I started going into labor on Friday spontaneously. I went into spontaneous labor. I didn't really know that much about laboring at home and all of the things like right now that I know you're supposed to do. Yeah. I had labored at home for an hour or two until contractions started getting intense. I went to the hospital which was an hour away. I checked in. They checked me. I was 2 centimeters dilated, and they took my blood pressure. They were like, “You have high blood pressure.” They didn't give me a reading or anything, but they were like, “We're going to make you stay. We're going to have you stay. We're not going to send you home.” I was like, “Okay. You guys know what you're doing.” I started laboring for an hour or two, and then a nurse came in and I had explained, “I really want to try and go for a natural birth.” She was like, “Okay. I'm going to give you an hour. I'm going to give you an hour.” Meagan: What?Georyana: “I'm going to give you an hour and see where you are as far as dilation and as far as progressing.” I was like, “Okay.” An hour went by. Mind you, I was strapped to the chair because there's something that you're never really taught, to move around while you are laboring. At the one-hour mark, she comes in. She checks me, and I've gone nowhere. She goes, “I'm going to put you on Pitocin.” Things started getting really crazy at that point because it was my first time feeling contractions, and those contractions were horrible. They are so intense, and now having had experienced these natural contractions from my VBAC, you can automatically tell the difference. She puts me on Pitocin. I labor and I had my husband with me. It was back-to-back contractions to the point where I could barely breathe. I had taken one birth class, but it was the standard information. They never really teach you how to breathe or the importance of getting your mind right, and the importance of your mind and how it plays such a huge role in birth.I just kept laboring. I kept literally squeezing my husband's hand. I couldn't allow him to go anywhere. It was horrible. As the hours passed, things started getting worse and worse. They ended up breaking my water. Then it was more Pitocin. It was already Saturday the next day. I hadn't drank anything. I hadn't eaten anything. There was no ice. There was nothing. Yeah. It just felt horrible. I just stayed. At one point, I couldn't handle the pain anymore so I asked for an epidural. Crazy enough, when the anesthesiologist came, he was with a student. He had asked the student to put the epidural inside of me. They had me sign a consent form. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is this?” I had heard about the epidural and that it was supposed to numb you, but I never expected to get to that point.I got the epidural, then I just started feeling numb. It numbed me completely down. The day went by. It was Saturday, then I eventually reached a 10. It was 10 PM on that Saturday. I was like, “Okay, well I want to try and push.” I tried to push for an hour or two, and basically, that went nowhere because they had me pushing on my back. They were trying to tell me, “Just try and push as if you are trying to go to the bathroom and poop.” It was just so frustrating because I was trying, and nothing was working. Eventually, they were like, “Your son's heart rate is dropping. We just have to do a C-section.” When she told me that, I felt like my world came crashing down because I didn't want it at all. But in that moment, as a mom, you are so vulnerable. You are going through so many emotions mentally, emotionally, physically, and so many things that it's just so hard to make a decision. Obviously, you want what's best for your baby. I was like, “Okay. Let's just do a C-section.” They didn't put me to sleep entirely. It was just my legs, but I just remembered that when they did that, I lost it. I had a very severe panic attack. I was like, “I can't feel my legs. I can't feel my legs.” There were all of these nurses around trying to calm me down. Eventually, we went to the C-section room. My husband was with me, and they did the procedure. My son was born thankfully. They made sure he was okay. They put him near my chest for a minute. They cut the cord and all of the things. But I didn't know what to expect. I thought that was what I was supposed to expect, to have him for a minute and to have him take him away. I didn't have anything else. So nothing, I stayed at the hospital for an entire week because my blood pressure rose drastically. Meagan: Did you have postpartum preeclampsia?Georyana: Yeah, technically. Without the seizures, thank God, but the blood pressure was crazy high. There was a nurse coming in every 2-3 hours to check my blood pressure. I got medication. Yeah. It was just a horrible moment because right there, you just gave birth to this human being while your body is out of whack going through all of these things, and you just feel like you failed. You feel like you failed, and you just did a horrible job. But you know, I just kept in-hospital, and one week later, I was released. The C-section recovery was horrible. It was very, very painful. I couldn't even walk or anything. Taking care of the baby was just really hard for me. Yeah. Eventually, my blood pressure got back to normal, and everything was well. I suffered from postpartum depression and severe anxiety to the point where my husband would go to work, and I would stay alone in the house. I would think that I was going to die of a heart attack. Meagan: Oh, yeah.Georyana: Yeah. My mental health was bizarre. I constantly felt like I was dying. I remember one night, I woke up in sweats. I just felt like I couldn't breathe. We had called the emergency 9-1-1. I literally felt like I was dying of a heart attack. They checked me and were like, “No, you're fine. It's just an anxiety attack.” Postpartum was definitely not the greatest experience for me for the first. Meagan: I am so sorry to hear that happened. Georyana: Yeah, but other than that, I'm so grateful to God that my son is healthy. He's currently 3 years old, and he is just a joy to be around. Meagan: Yeah. Do you have any resources or suggestions for someone who may have experienced that before or just in general for someone listening in case they have any symptoms or anything like that that you want to share?Georyana: For what specifically?Meagan: For postpartum anxiety and panic attacks and stuff to maybe help recognize what it could be or resources that helped you. Georyana: Yeah, definitely my biggest resource was God, the church, and prayer. I think that helped me a lot and just having a community of people who you can count on whether that's a friend or your mom where you can say, “Hey, mom. I'm going through this. Hey friend, I'm going through this. Pray for me. Come over. Please help me. Please help me do some chores,” or anything like that. The weight is a lot. Once you've given birth, you're thinking about a million things– the baby, the diapers, yourself, the kitchen is a mess, and you definitely need to have the support group to lean on. But as far as anxiety, learn where your mind is going. Be able to detect those thoughts that creep in and that tell you, “Hey, you're not doing a good job. You're going to die. This is going to happen.” Learn to stop those thoughts or reframe. Reframe your mind. We have so much power in our minds. Meagan: Yep.Georyana: If we only knew where it could take us. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. Our minds are so powerful, and there is something about that community that can really, really help. There are even more resources like deeper resources. There is postpartum support, Baby Your Baby, and so many things. We talk about this in our course, and I won't go through all of them, but I think it's so important to do a self-care checklist after. Think about, “Have I eaten enough? Have I slept enough?” You want at least 5 hours of sleep. Most of us with newborns can say no to that automatically, so maybe doing something like hiring a postpartum doula, having our mother-in-law come, having our community come in to help and hold baby so we can get really good and effective sleep. Have a bath or a shower. Just getting ready for the day is weird but can help us mentally. It can help us get out of that mental funk. Exercise– now, we can't really do that in the beginning. But have I exercised is another question. Have I allowed myself to laugh today? Have I allowed myself to smile today? These are things. There are many more. Like I said, we talk about those in our VBAC course because it is so important. It's not talked about enough, so I'm so glad that you were able to take this space to feel vulnerable enough to talk about this experience. Georyana: Definitely. I agree. Right now, for this postpartum, I have my mom. She lives 30 minutes away. She comes twice a week and helps me cook meals. Meagan: So good. Georyana: Yeah. They are delicious. You just have to be willing to take the help. There is definitely help. Yeah. It's important that we don't feel alone. Meagan: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Sorry, we can go on to this next birth story. Georyana: This next birth story– my husband and I knew that we wanted another baby, but we just didn't know when would be the right time. 2.5 years passed. We got pregnant. It was a surprise. It was a surprise and a blessing. All I knew inside of me was that I wanted a VBAC. I wanted a VBAC. I was like, “You know what? I'm going to try for it again.” I was obviously open to the fact that it could end in a C-section. I didn't have a closed mind in that sense. I ended up searching for supportive providers. After finding one, I found an OB/GYN. The first thing that I had asked was, “Do you support VBACs?” They were like,”Yeah, we do. We do.” They had five doctors on board, so basically, every prenatal visit had a different doctor so that eventually when I would go into labor, one of them was going to be assisting my birth. To each one, I would always ask the same thing, “Hey, I would like to do this. Do you support it?” They were like, “Yeah, we do that.” My blood pressure was great at every prenatal visit. There were no concerns. I did change a lot of what I had previously done in my previous pregnancy which is that I started exercising. I started walking 30 minutes 3 or 4 times a week. I started eating healthier because I think that's one of the things that most people don't talk about too is the importance of nutrition. It is important in pregnancy. You're always told that you have another human being and you have to eat for two. You're like, “Yeah, let's eat for two,” and you gain 10, 20, 30 pounds. I tried to be mindful of what I was eating. Long story short, everything was going great. At my 32-week appointment, I met with a provider. I meet with one of the doctors on the team, and my same question pops up. She's like, “Oh, you can't really go past 40 weeks here. You can't.” I'm like, “Why? I'm perfectly healthy. My blood pressure is fine. Why can't I go a day past 40 weeks?” She was like, “No, you can't. You actually have to schedule your C-section date right now. You have to sign a consent form. You have to put your due date as your C-section date.”My due date was August 1st. I was like, “Well, I don't understand.” I was just feeling led on because, during the prenatal appointments, there were subtle signs, but I guess I didn't really want to pay attention to them because I was like, “Oh my gosh. I can't imagine switching providers.” I was 7 months pregnant. I was like, “Okay, thank you. I'm just going to call back and schedule that C-section.” I remember going home and being like, “Wow. This really just happened.” I remember that I started praying. I told God. I expressed how I felt. I was just very overwhelmed and, “Is this really the path that you have for me?” I felt that he just told me, “Do a home birth.” I was like, “What? A home birth? That is not–” Meagan: That's not what I've been looking at at all. Georyana: That is insane. Funny enough, I started researching, is that truly an option for me? After researching, I found a midwife. She is actually Chrisitan, a pastor, a worship leader, and a midwife. Meagan: Wow. She wears a lot of hats. Georyana: She wears a lot of hats. I don't know how she does it, but I expressed to her, “Am I able to do a home birth if I had high blood pressure during my previous pregnancy?” She was like, “Yeah. We will monitor you. We will make sure you are taking care of yourself.” She did tell me, “During labor, if your blood pressure skyrockets, we'll have a plan in place and we will go to the hospital.” We had plan A and plan B. I spent the last 2 months with her. She would come to my house, and check my blood pressure. She had me drinking lots and lots of water which is another thing that we underestimate or is not often talked about. Meagan: We do. We really don't. We usually drink water, but we're not getting enough of the hydration.Georyana: 100%. She was like, “You need to be drinking at least half of your weight in water.” All I remember was that every day, I was chugging water. She actually advised me to take Calm as a magnesium supplement. Meagan: MagCalm? Georyana: Yeah, MagCalm. That helped tremendously. That helped tremendously. Everything was safe and sound. I was doing all of the things at 37 weeks– the Miles Circuit, the red raspberry leaf tea. I was eating the dates and all of the things that they tell you to VBAC. I was listening to a lot of birth stories, especially on The VBAC Link which just helped me tremendously because I was able to get in a right mindset. The birth stories edified my faith to a whole other level. I just remember every day doing dishes and I was plugging in a story. Every story was different, and I was like, “Wow. If it could happen for her, it could happen for me. Why disqualify myself? Why disqualify my body?” That's another thing that we do a lot. We often hear, “Oh no, your body wasn't meant to do it” or “Your body can't do it”.Meagan: Yep, yeah. We hear those things, and then we believe them. Georyana: Yeah, that's the sad part. I think I was 39 weeks and 3 days. I go into labor. My water broke at 3:00 in the morning, but I need to backtrack that. At 38 weeks, my midwife checked me. I had asked her to check me. She checked me, and I was 3 centimeters dilated. The baby was head down. The baby was head down. Everything was normal and everything was looking good. She came back at 39 weeks, and I was like, “Can you check me again to see if I've progressed?” Even though that doesn't really mean anything, I was just so excited. She checks me, and she's like, “I don't know what I'm feeling, but I'm not feeling the head anymore.” Meagan: Oh, okay. Georyana: Yeah. I'm like, “What do you mean you're not feeling the head?” She checks, and she's like, “I don't know if that is her hand or her knees or something like that, but it's definitely not the head.” She tells me, “I think I'm going to have to send you to get an ultrasound to see the positioning of the baby.” We spend a couple of minutes just trying to sink that in. She was like, “But you know what? Let me check again. Maybe I was wrong.” She checked again, and she is still feeling the same things, but then she was like, “Is that your coccyx (the tailbone)?” I thought it was. I genuinely thought it was. I tell her, “Yeah. I think that's it.” We were like, “Okay, I think we should be fine.” We were going a little loopy. I don't know. Fast forward to when my water breaks at 3:00 in the morning, I started feeling contractions, but nothing consistent, so during the day, I just remembered that I texted her. She was like, “What other symptoms do you have?” I had my bloody show. My mucus plug fell out. The contractions were different from the Braxton Hicks that I had been facing all of these weeks. I was like, “Yeah, there's definitely some type of shift here because I feel like they are stronger. They are lasting longer.” Fast forward to Saturday, I ended up walking with my husband. His family was in town, and that also helped pick up the contractions. At around 6:00 PM, I gave her a contraction timer app on my phone so she could see. By the way, I had a doula, so she had the app as well. She was an hour away, and she was like, “Please text me so I can come out on time.” At around 7:00 PM, they both arrived to my home. Contractions were 6 or 7 minutes apart. She had me actually do nipple stimulation with my husband. They went out of the room. We did nipple stimulation, and that just skyrocketed everything because I had all of the oxytocin flowing. Meagan: I was going to say that's natural oxytocin flow right there.Georyana: I had natural oxytocin. I was like, “Whoa. Now I'm in a whole other dimension.” Contractions were 3 minutes apart. I just remember breathing. I had worship music playing in the background. The lighting was dim. It was so different from the hospital. It was so intimate. It was something unforgettable what I experienced on that day and when I compare it to my hospital birth, I had so much tension. All the bright lights, it was so different. She set up the birth pool. I went in, and I sat down. She was like, “Okay. I think it's time to push. You're at a 10.” She had checked me. I was trying to push, but I didn't really get it. I was trying to feel my intuition because they always tell you, “Your body knows when it's going to push.” She had me stand up, and she coached me. She said, “Try standing up and seeing if you have the urge to push.” When I stood up, I got that urge. A contraction came. I did a push, and nothing happened. Then another contraction came, and I did. I just remember breathing in, and I just let it out. She sees knees. Meagan: What? Knees? Georyana: Knees. She sees the baby's knees come out. She screamed. Meagan: What?!Georyana: She was like, “Oh yeah. She's breech. She's breech. She's coming out breech.” Meagan: Oh my goodness. Georyana: I just remember I was moaning during that period. I was just like, “Ooh.” I didn't look at anyone, but my husband tells me that at this moment, I just looked at the doula and she had her jaw on the floor. She was like, “Okay, well, you have to breathe in, and push in during the next contraction.” I remember that during the next contraction, I just let out the biggest roar. It was a roar. She came out entirely. My husband caught her. I just fell. I just fell, and yeah, she was breech. She came out knees first, then her legs, then her whole head just popped out. Meagan: I am dying right now. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. Once her knees came out, her whole body slipped out? Georyana: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Definitely. It was such a moment of shock. Meagan: Yeah, I bet for everybody. Georyana: Yeah, for everyone because we thought she was head down. I kept telling her, “You were right. You were right. What you were feeling was the knees.” She was like, “Thank God I didn't send you to do the ultrasound because you would have gotten a C-section automatically at the hospital. That would have been an automatic C-section.” Meagan: Yeah. They wouldn't have entertained that at all. Georyana: Yeah. He put her on my chest. It was so surreal. I was like, “Wow. My body did this. God really did this to me.” We went on over to the bed. They weighed her. She was 6 pounds and 3 ounces. Meagan: Aw, your tiny little thing. Georyana: Yeah, she was tiny which also helped me. Yeah. Shortly after, I started breastfeeding. With my first, with my son, that was something I really wanted to do, but he never really quite latched so I just pumped for 2 years. For this one, I didn't really expect to breastfeed, I was like, “If it happens, good. If it doesn't, then whatever.” But when she started breastfeeding, I was just like, “Wow, my body is doing this too.” The connection that I just feel with her that I have is just out of this world. That was my experience. Meagan: Wow. Had your midwife done breech before? Georyana: She says that obviously when she was in training with other midwives before she went solo, she had experienced breech births, but this was her first time solo and alone. Technically, she's not allowed to deliver breech babies under law. If she knows, she needs to automatically send me to the hospital. Meagan: But if the baby's knees are coming out, and baby comes out like that, what are you going to do?Georyana: Yeah, exactly. You don't really have any other option than to just deliver the baby.Meagan: Oh my goodness. Wow. That's an amazing story. This is so awesome. Oh my gosh. This postpartum has been much better?Georyana: Yeah, it has. During the first one, like I said, I suffered from anxiety and panic attacks. I didn't really get that this time around. What I got this time around was anger. Meagan: Hmm, okay. So some postpartum rage? Georyana: Yeah, it was rage, and I guess just handling two kids and the transition from one to two hit me hard. I didn't really know how to understand that. But the same thing around, just being able to give myself grace, I had a postpartum session with my midwife and my doula being able to let them know how I felt was very good. It was very helpful. Speaking with my pastor and just letting them know my feelings and how I felt really helped me. It really helped me. I'm doing so much better now. This postpartum has been amazing. A lot of breastfeeding, a lot of cuddles and snuggles. Seeing my son play with his sister was something I always dreamed of, being able to have two kids. Meagan: Oh, what a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing. Huge congrats. This little ball right here is just stunning. Her head, oh my gosh– her head of hair is just insane. She has so much hair. That is just so much fun, and I'm so happy for you.Georyana: Thank you so much, and thank you for having me. Meagan: Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aubrey shares her three birth stories that tell of resilience, healing, trust, and miracles. She has had a vaginal birth, a crash Cesarean, and a VBAC– all of which presented cholestasis. Aubrey's first birth was a long but routine induction. Her second birth was a traumatic whirlwind including a complete placental abruption, general anesthesia, and her baby miraculously surviving 15 minutes without oxygen. Though her third pregnancy had many complications, the open and honest relationship Aubrey had with her provider is what ultimately led to her TOLAC and successful VBAC at 37 weeks and 6 days after another medically necessary induction. Aubrey is proof that no two births are the same, and miracles happen even when circumstances threaten to say otherwise. **Aubrey also wanted to mention that after her VBAC, she was readmitted to the hospital for postpartum preeclampsia. She had a headache every day, decided to eventually buy a blood pressure machine, and it was through the roof. She took herself to L&D, and they put her on magnesium. Aubrey had no idea it was even possible to get it postpartum and wanted to share!Managing Cholestasis SymptomsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. It is almost Christmas, and I am so excited to bring another story your way. This is a VBAC story from a mama who is from Louisiana. She had quite a few roadblocks within her pregnancies that could have easily stopped her from having a VBAC, but she really established a good relationship with her provider even though her provider wasn't actually as gung-ho or excited about the VBAC specifically because she was nervous, together they communicated their feelings and understood where each other were, and came up with a plan to ultimately have a VBAC.I just respect that so much. It's important to know. We talk about providers all of the time. Providers are so important, and they make such a big impact on our outcome, but this provider, even though she wasn't really comfortable with VBAC, she truly believed in our guest, Aubrey, today. You'll have to hear it from her own words. It's awesome to hear how everything unfolded. We also have a topic today that maybe isn't shared a ton. It's called ICP or cholestasis that we are talking about. It is a liver condition that can occur during pregnancy and cause a range of symptoms. A lot of the times, it is baby being born that is the thing to end cholestasis. We are going to talk a little bit more about that, but I wanted to go over some of the symptoms. We've got dark urine, pale or light gray stools, and she'll talk about this. That is definitely something that is not normal in pregnancy, so if you are seeing that, that is a reason to contact your provider. Nausea, she described some other symptoms there. Decreased appetite, pain in the abdomen, or jaundice. These are some things to look out for. Now, there is a website called icpcare.org. We're going to make sure to attach that in the show notes, so if you have had cholestasis before or you want to learn more about cholestasis and how to manage the symptoms, and what types of things like healthy diet, they have so many amazing resources on their website. They even have recipes and different types of healthy fats and grains and legumes and things that we can focus on. We know that all of the time in pregnancy, really what we are putting into our body is so important. Definitely check out icpcare.org if you want to learn more about ICP and managing symptoms and resources and community support and all of the above. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that, and then turn the time over to Aubrey. This reviewer is reneekc89. The review title is, “A Turning Point”. It says, “When I was pregnant with my first, I was one of those ‘whatever happens is fine' moms about birth. Then I had an unplanned Cesarean after a stalled induction. It wasn't until I saw family members and friends so easily have vaginal births that I knew I had to try something different the second time around. I found this podcast through a local mom's group and immediately binged every episode. I continue to listen every week even after my successful VBAC in October 2020.”It says, “Listening to what seemed like every possible outcome helped me release my fear that I might have had. I felt emotionally prepared for anything that might have come my way. I switched hospitals and advocated through my entire 25-hour labor in the hospital, and felt like every decision was a conversation between two adults rather than demands.” Oh, what a powerful thing right there, you guys. She says, “I advocated throughout my entire 25-hour labor in the hospital and felt like every decision was a conversation between two adults rather than demands.” That is how it should be. It says, “I have to thank this podcast for helping me gain that kind of confidence. Thank you also to the Facebook Community for always answering my questions.” Oh my gosh. Thank you, reneekc89, for that review. Just a reminder, you guys, if you have not found us on Facebook yet, check us out. You can find us at The VBAC Link Community. You have to answer a few questions to get in, and then you'll get into this amazing community. We have the community on Instagram, and Facebook, and in this Facebook group. I believe so much that this Facebook community will empower you along the way. Like she said, you can ask questions, share pictures, and share concerns, and share triumphs and feel that love and support along the journey. I also wanted to throw out that we have a CBAC group, so if you are going for a TOLAC and it does end in a Cesarean, or you choose a Cesarean birth after a Cesarean, this group is here for you as well. You can find that at The CBAC Link Community on Facebook. Meagan: All right, Ms. Aubrey. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I know you've probably been waiting. I feel like there are so many times when people are really excited to record their story, then I'm like, “Hey, you're going to be aired this much further out.” You have two months to wait. You're recording now, and then in two months, you'll be airing on, but I'm so glad you are here to share your three stories. You had a C-section, then two VBACs, right? Aubrey: I had a vaginal birth, then a C-section, and then a vaginal birth. Meagan: That's why I'm thinking two vaginal births. So vaginal birth, then Cesarean, then vaginal birth. You've got all sorts of different things added to your story. Aubrey: So many. Meagan: Cholestasis is one of them, right?Aubrey: Yes. Meagan: Okay. I'm excited to talk about that, because I think a lot of people think with cholestasis, there's only one answer. We're going to be talking about that, but I'm going to turn the time over to you.Aubrey: Okay. I guess we'll start with my first birth. Heads up if I cry at all during it because I just do that sometimes. Meagan: That is okay. That is okay. Aubrey: My first pregnancy was totally normal. I had no complications. I was big and miserable, but that was about it. I did have SPD, so my pelvis hurt really bad. I didn't know enough about it to go to a chiropractor to fix it. That was really my only thing until right at 38 weeks, it was that night at about 11:00 at night. I started itching on my feet. I couldn't scratch the itch. I got my husband's socks, and I put gel ice packs inside of them and wore them. That helped, then the itching started in my hands. This had been going on for about 2 hours, so I got in a really cold bathtub. The itching had started to spread more. It wasn't just my hands and my feet. It wasn't a normal itch. It was coming from underneath my skin. It was like my blood was itching. Meagan: People have described it to me as an unreachable itch.Aubrey: It is. It's the most miserable. Meagan: You touch the spot, but you can't get to it.Aubrey: Yeah. It's like when the inside of your ear itches. You're like, ugh. It's like that but all over. Nothing helps. I called the after-hours line at probably 4:00 in the morning. The doctor on call was like, “Pregnancy can be itchy. Take some Benadryl.” I was like, “I've already taken Benadryl. It's not helping.” She was telling me to take some creams, and I knew something else was wrong. I spent the rest of the morning researching. I came to the conclusion that I was 99% sure that I had something called cholestasis, and that I was going to have to be induced.One thing that solidified that was that there were other symptoms that I didn't know about. My stool was white. It was really weird. It just was white-colored. I had this really violent episode of vomiting beyond anything I had ever experienced in my life. That's one of the things. It's this uncontrollable exorcist-style vomiting. Meagan: I actually did not know that. Aubrey: Yeah. It was unnatural. I remember thinking, “That was so weird,” but it was a couple of days before that, and then the next day or so was when I had the weird white-colored stool, but again, I had never been pregnant, so I was like, “I guess this is just pregnancy,” then the itching. That's when I put it all together, and I was like, “Well, I've got cholestasis.” My husband was working that weekend, so I got my best friend to bring me to the hospital. When we got there, I was scratching all over. I was saying, “I'm pretty sure I've got cholestasis.” They clearly didn't believe me. They weren't being ugly. They were like, “All right. Let's see what's really going on here.” They put me in triage, and the on-call doctor came in. She is a lovely person. I don't mean anything bad, but she walked in. She said, “Okay, here's why you don't have cholestasis.” She starts listing off all of these reasons. One of them was that I wasn't jaundiced. Later on, in my research, there's only 30% of women who have elevated bilirubin levels when you have cholestasis. I wouldn't have been jaundiced because my bilirubin wasn't elevated. I said, “Okay. I understand all of that, but can you please just run the labs?” She was like, “Okay, if you want me to run them.” She brought the lady in there. They did the labs, and about 30 minutes later, she came back in, and she was like, “Okay. You were right, and I was wrong. You have cholestasis, and we are going to induce you right now.” I was like, “Okay.”Meagan: Oh my gosh.Aubrey: I called my husband and told him he needed to leave work. At about 5:00, I think– I guess it was about 5:00. They put misoprostol. Meagan: Mhmm, misoprostol, yeah. Cytotec. Aubrey: Yeah, they inserted that. After the first dose, they determined that my cervix was not tolerating it well. They decided to not continue it. They went straight to Pitocin. I didn't know then that what they were doing was really, really fast, but they were upping it every 15 minutes 2 milliunits. Meagan: 15? Wow. That is really fast. Aubrey: It is. Now that I know. At the time, I was like, “Okay.” During my birth, I prepped. I read books, and I went to classes, and I did the Bradley method, and all of the things, but I didn't prepare for induction because I had no idea that I would ever need that, so I knew a lot about birth, but I did not know anything about induction. I was like, “Okay, if you say we're going to do that, we'll do it.” I think I felt my first contraction. It wasn't that long after the Pitocin, but it wasn't that strong. I had contractions off and on for several hours, and the nurses would come in and say, “Oh, are you okay? That was a really strong one.” They didn't feel that bad to me, so I was like, “Oh, I can do this.” That went on for a while, and I guess once I got going more, It just felt like I was always contracting. I didn't know any different, again. I didn't know any different. I just thought this was what it was. Sometimes, it would be more intense, but there was always a contraction. Even on the monitor, you could see that it never dipped down. She asked if she could break my water at 7:00 that morning. It was my doctor. I don't know if she came to check on me or if she happened to be on rounds. She asked to break my waters. I told her I didn't want her to right now. She came back later, and I was okay with her breaking it, so the floodgates opened. I had so much fluid. We did not realize how much fluid I had. That was that morning or maybe the mid-morning. That evening, I hadn't slept in two days at that point because of the itching the night before, and then the contractions. I asked the nurse, “If I get an epidural, will I sleep?” She was like, “Probably so,” then I was like, “Then give it to me. I am so tired.” I did. I slept like a baby. The nurse, I wish I knew her name, but she was so sweet. She came in the night. She put a peanut ball in between my legs. I was only 4-5 centimeters at that point. She put a peanut ball in, and she would come in every 30 minutes. She would flip me from one side to another while I was sleeping. I woke up the next morning at 6:00 in the morning. I had been in labor at that point for 39 hours. I got the epidural at 30 hours. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah. She came in the next morning, and the doctor was like, “Okay. You're ready to push.” I was like, “I am?” The epidural was so strong. I couldn't wiggle my toes. I had no idea. She came in, and set everything up. I pushed her out in 15 minutes. Meagan: Whoa. That's awesome. Aubrey: 14 minutes actually. My doctor was like, “That's the best I've ever seen a new mom push.” I was like, “Wow, yeah. Okay.” Meagan: Go me!Aubrey: Yeah. I didn't have any reference. For me, I was like, “This is taking so long, but apparently it was very quick.” Now I know it was pretty quick. Afterwards, my uterus would not contract back. My placenta wouldn't come off. Now I know it's because afterwards, she told me that my contractions never stopped. There was never a break between contractions, so my uterus was just completely exhausted. Meagan: Uterine atrophy, yeah. Aubrey: Yeah, so she had to manually go in there inside of me and start my uterus to contract again which was not pleasant, but she just basically had to shock it. Meagan: Stimulate it, yeah.Aubrey: Yeah. Eventually, it did, and my placenta just fell out. That was that. When they broke my water, I forgot to say, they did find meconium which is common in cholestasis. It was very light, and she wasn't worried about it. It wasn't an automatic C-section because of the meconium. It was really light. She did have to be suctioned, but other than that, she was perfectly fine. We didn't know any of the genders for any of my babies, so it was fun to find out that she was a girl. That was birth number one, and that was in 2018.A year and a half or whatever it was, I got pregnant right before COVID became a big thing. I was pregnant all through the COVID scare. I was due in September, at the end of September. Again, it was non-complicated. I forgot about this. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage around 16 weeks which I didn't know about. I didn't have any bleeding or anything. They just found it on the ultrasound, and then by the next time I went, it was resolved. I was considered high-risk though the whole time because of the cholestasis, so I had frequent scans all the time. That was really the only thing that was weird. We had tested for cholestasis. There were a couple times because anyone who has had cholestasis knows that anytime you itch, you're like, “It's back.” There were several times I had her test me, and there were no elevated levels. Right before 39 weeks, I told her about some intense itching on my foot. I told her that this time was it. It was the itch. She was like, “Okay, well because of COVID, and we're not sure what the hospital bed situation is going to be like, we're going to go ahead and test your blood and find out if it's present, but in the meantime, let's go ahead and schedule your induction to make sure you have a place if we do have to induce, then you're already there.” She wanted me to induce that day. I couldn't because my husband was gone for the Army. I said, “I just need a few days for him to get back in town.” That was on a Thursday or Friday, and I was induced either Monday or Tuesday. It was on September 1, 2020. I went in for my induction. This time, I had not prepared at all. I was like, “Oh, it's like riding a bike. I've done it once. I can do it again.” I want to say upfront that anything they did during the induction, I was totally a party to it. I agreed. I never said no. I never asked questions. I was uninformed or unprepared or whatever, but I never spoke up, so I don't blame them for anything that happened because I could have spoken up, but I didn't. They always asked me. They never told me, “This is what we're doing.” They asked me my permission for everything. We got there. They did not do Cytotec because it hadn't worked before. They went straight to Pitocin. Again, the same 2 milliunits every 15 minutes. Meagan: Is this just their way?Aubrey: I think it was. I don't think it is anymore, because it was different when I went for my VBAC, but yeah. Meagan: Well, I wonder if that's because you were a VBAC though. Aubrey: No, because one of the conversations I had with one of the nurses, I asked her if we could start slow. She was like, “Well, our policy is to go 2 milliunits every 30 minutes.” I was like, “I'd like to go slower than that.” I think they must have changed their policy. I don't know. That's what my hospital records say is that they were doing 2 milliunits every 15 minutes. I got those thanks to y'all. I was like, “Let me go see what that says.” Meagan: It's nice to see what it says, yeah. Aubrey: Yeah, it is because in my situation especially with what happened to my son, it was so amazing to read what really happened and to know my son is where he is. I'll get to that. Anyway, so she came in around 7:00 in the morning. My doctor was on shift. She asked if she could break my waters. I was like, “Sure, go ahead.” She broke my water. So far, it had been a pretty uneventful induction, nothing to write home about. I didn't have an epidural. I didn't feel like I needed one. I was going to try to do it without one if I could, but that might have been at 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning. I don't know. It was in the morning. Around lunchtime, they started saying that the baby was wiggly and that they couldn't really get a reading of his heart. He had been wiggly before, and so they were like, “Is it okay if we insert an IUPC?” I had that with my daughter. It doesn't harm the baby. It didn't hurt me. I didn't mind them putting it in, which is for those of y'all who don't know, it is a–Meagan: Intrauterine pressure catheter. You've got it. Aubrey: It measures the contractions from the inside so you can see how effective they are and all that. I was like, “Fine, yeah.” My nurse, whose name is Becca, she's lovely, inserted the catheter into my uterus, and the tube that comes out is clear, and it filled with dark red blood. I knew something was wrong. I said, “That shouldn't be red like that.” She said, “It's okay. Sometimes we have a little bleeding.” I said, “Not like that. That's red.” She was trying to calm me down. Meagan: Yeah, and sometimes they can knick the cervix and it can cause bleeding, but you were like, “No. Something's not right.” Aubrey: Yeah. I just knew something was wrong, but before that, I had no symptoms. I had no clue that anything was wrong. I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel any pain. Nothing. I was like, “You need to take it out. Please take it out. Please take it out.” She called my doctor who was in her clinic down the hospital, and she said, “It's okay to take it out if she's not comfortable with it.” When she took it out, blood just came shooting out of me. It was gushing. Meagan: Really?Aubrey: I know it was blood mixed with fluid, so that's why it was so much, but it looked like it was pure blood. It was so dark. I mean, I was like, “Okay, I need the doctor.” Becca was so sweet. She said, “Okay, just give me one minute. I'm going to go outside and get the doctor.” She was so calm. I was freaking out. She went out there. My doctor was in my hospital room within a couple of minutes. I think she was across the hospital in her office. She was there within a couple of minutes. She had an ultrasound machine. There wasn't a lot of time for talking about what was going on. She just got the ultrasound machine, looked for a second, pushed it up against the wall, and my doctor has the most wonderful bedside manner with the way she talks even when she is stressed out. She said, “Okay, Aubrey, we're going to have to go back to surgery now. Brandon, I need you to tell your wife goodbye.” As she's telling him that, they're pulling my jewelry off. The other nurse handed me a consent form for a C-section. They were prepping me as we were talking. Then they ran me down the hall. It felt like Grey's Anatomy. They pushed this poor woman up against the wall. I remember her head hitting the wall. It was that fast. We were running down the hall. We got into the OR, and I just remember them prepping my body and prepping the room. They were getting the instruments lined up. There was no time for anything. I didn't have an epidural, so they didn't have time to call an anesthesiologist to my knowledge. They started putting the lidocaine where my incision was or was going to be. I started hyperventilating. The nurses threw a bedsheet over my head. They popped up under there with me. They were like, “I'm so sorry, but this is the best we can do. We don't have time to put a sheet up. We're going to have to stay under here. We'll stay here with you.”Meagan: Oh my lanta. Aubrey: Yeah, it was really scary. I remember right before they threw the sheet, I could still see the door swinging. That's how fast everything happened. They eventually, she was like, “You have to calm your breaths down because the baby needs the oxygen.” Little did I know that it really didn't matter how much breath I took. He wasn't getting anything. Eventually, they put me out with gas. Meagan: Did they put you under general?Aubrey: I had to be gassed out. I was hyperventilating. They were like, “We need you to be still.” At the time, they were literally about to cut me before they threw the sheet over. I remember the very last thing that my doctor said to her nurse was, “There's no fetal heartbeat. There are no fetal tones.” I knew at that point that he was dead. Meagan: That's the last thing you heard. Aubrey: Yeah. I woke up. I don't know how much longer it was. It was pretty quickly after surgery because I don't think they anticipated me waking up so early. I was in a hallway. I wasn't in a recovery room. Because I wasn't out all the way, I don't know, but I woke up, and two of the nurses, because there were like 18 people in the room with me when everything happened. The nurses' backs were to me. I said, “Is my baby alive?” One of them said, “Oh, she's awake.” They turned around. One of them said, “They're doing everything they can.” I passed back out. Then I woke back up in the recovery room. My doctor was waiting for me. It was COVID, so my husband wasn't anywhere near any of this. Meagan: Yeah, I was wondering. You said his name was Brandon, right? They were like, “Bye, Brandon. We have to take her.”Aubrey: Then he was just left alone in the labor and delivery room freaking out. Meagan: No one talked to him?Aubrey: He told me later that my doctor had come in after the surgery to tell him everything that happened. Immediately afterward, she came in there to tell him. She is the best doctor in the whole world. Meagan: But he had to wait. Aubrey: Yeah, he had to wait. There wasn't any time for anybody to tell him anything. Meagan: How scary for him. Aubrey: Because come to find out, my placenta had spontaneously 100% completely detached from my body in a matter of a couple of hours. If anybody has ever had a placental abruption, it starts slow. It comes off a little bit at a time. Mine came off in a couple of hours. It was completely detached. We didn't know why at the time. It was very unexpected. She was there. I woke up, and I said, “Is my baby alive?” She said, “Do you want to know what you had?” I said, “Is the baby alive?” She said, “He's alive, and he's a boy.” Then she told me what happened. He was dead when he was born. He was dead for 15 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah, 15 minutes. He had no blood flow or oxygen flow to his brain. A lot of his blood had been drained out of him because my placenta had pulled it out of him because it was detached so quickly I guess. He was not completely exsanguinated, but he lost a lot of blood and he had no heartbeat. According to my hospital records, they tried compressions. They tried the electrode things. They tried an epinephrine shot, and they tried an epinephrine drip, and nothing started his heart, and then after 15 minutes, his heart just spontaneously started by itself. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah. That's why it was so cool reading back my hospital records to see. My doctor and everyone involved was like, “We can't believe this. I cannot believe he is alive. I cannot believe you are alive,” but reading it and seeing how amazing it really was was really cool. She told me that the surgery had happened in just a few minutes, and that because of how quickly she had to perform that surgery, that my recovery was going to be really intense, and that most people who have a C-section would not be in as much pain as I'm going to be in because they literally had to rip my body open to get him out, but she said, “Your incision is fine.” Luckily, she's a really skilled surgeon. She did all of that perfectly. She said, “I don't expect any trouble with you healing or anything with your scar.” He was put on a cooling blanket and intubated and given maybe six blood transfusions. If anybody from the hospital is listening, I'm sorry if I get the numbers wrong. But it was a lot. There were six little stickers missing from his transfusion bracelet. He couldn't eat. We couldn't pick him up. We couldn't touch him. I couldn't see him for the first 24 hours because I couldn't move, so the nurses had taken pictures of him and brought them to me so I could see what he looked like. They didn't show me the really scary ones until later because there were some at the very beginning that were very scary-looking. My doctor came in the next day to check on me. It was her day off. She just came in to check in on me to tell me how grateful she was that I was there. I know it traumatized her too because she said she had never opened up someone and seen their placenta floating inside of their body. My nurse, Becca, came to see me. She was also pretty traumatized. But anyway, it was a lot. Once he was in the hospital, they put him on the cooling blanket and all that. He had to be on the cooling blanket for 72 hours, and then they were going to be able to test him to see how significant the brain damage was because we knew that he would have some. I mean, after 5 minutes, you start to have brain damage, and then we knew having been out for 15 minutes that we were looking at something pretty significant based on science. That was the thing that I think was different about me then than now. My background was in physiological psychology. That's what I studied in grad school. My immediate thought was, “I know what science says. I know the probability is of my baby,” and that's what I was looking at. What do we need to do to take care of this baby with significant brain damage?We waited, and on the second day, the day before I was released from the hospital, I had a really cool encounter that was just the way that God changed everything for me which came into my VBAC later because of the faith that it gave me, but I had dragged myself to the shower that morning. It was so painful. My husband was still asleep on the couch. I got in the shower, and the water was cold. That made it even worse pain because it was cold. I was in the shower, but I couldn't get up because I was frozen in pain. I was like, “Why is this water in the hospital cold? It shouldn't be cold.” I sat in there for about 15 minutes. The water stayed cold, and it never warmed up. Finally, I said, “God? If you can't save my baby, can I at least have some hot water?” The water turned hot. I just started laughing and crying at the same time. I just knew that my baby was okay. I don't know how I knew. I just knew that even if he wasn't going to be perfect, whatever was wrong with him was okay. It helped me to get through the next few days because it was hard to see him just laying there. Finally, when they were able to do his tests after 72 hours, we had to go to a different hospital. He had to go in a little ambulance and go over there. We had one of the best pediatric neurologists in the area, Dr. Holman. She's not known for her bedside manner, but she's an incredible, incredible doctor. I say that in a way that she's very to the point. She doesn't sugarcoat anything. My sister, who is a nurse, warned me, “I'm just telling you that she's the best of the best, but she's not–” Meagan: She's blunt. Aubrey: She'll give it to you straight. That's what we were expecting. They did his little scans, and when she came back she said, “I don't have a medical explanation, but your baby is perfect. There's not a single spot on his brain. The cooling blanket does incredible things, but I should see something, and I don't see anything.” Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: She said, “Your baby's going to be perfectly fine.” She told us that he's probably going to have some issues from being in the NICU and being still. He would have to have physical therapy to help his muscles and all of that, but as far as his functioning as a human being, he was perfectly fine, and nothing was wrong with him. Meagan: Yay. What a miracle. Aubrey: Yeah. That's what she said. She said, “Your baby is a miracle, and I don't get to say that with what I do very much.” Meagan: That's awesome. Aubrey: Yeah. So that was his birth, and after that, that day, my husband left and went back to the Army. I recovered from that. I recovered from that pretty much alone which was almost as traumatic as what happened in the hospital because I was in so much pain, and I had a 1.5-year-old and a new baby who screamed all the time which was one of the things they warned me about after the NICU. They said, “He's going to cry a lot. We don't know why, but coolant babies just scream a lot.” He did. For hours and hours and hours, he would scream. It felt like torture in a way because it was like I couldn't do anything. He would scream and scream and scream. My friend, Ashley, and my sister were the only way I made it through that. I would call my sister, Kelly, and be like, “I need to come over,” at 3:00 in the morning. She was like, “Come on.” She would hold him while he screamed so I could go in the back and sleep because I was so sleep-deprived and in so much pain. Then my friend, Ashley, would come over and help me clean. She helped me with my daughter. They helped me through that part. My husband was gone for the first 6 months of Amos' life. About 2 years later, I got pregnant again. I was really scared of having to have another C-section. I was on a pregnancy app, and I asked, “Has anyone ever had a vaginal birth after they've had a Cesarean?” Somebody on there was like, “Oh, you should try this thing called a VBAC. There is a place called The VBAC Link.” I was like, “Okay.” I had no idea. I had never heard of The VBAC Link or the term “VBAC”. I found The VBAC Link, and like everybody else, I became obsessed. I listened to every episode, read every article, and every post. By the time it came time for my first appointment with my doctor, I knew that I was going to at least give it my best try. When I told my husband that I wanted to have a VBAC, he was not okay with that. He was really freaked out because, I mean, everybody involved was traumatized. He was. The nurses, the doctors, everybody. He was just like, “Are you sure that's safe?” I was like, “Yes, actually. I am sure that's what is safest.” I got on The VBAC Link, and I was like, “How do I make my husband understand?” They were like, “Enroll in the course and show him the course.” Meagan: Yes. Take the course with him. Aubrey: We did. By the end of it, he was like, “Okay. If that's what you want to do, we will do it.” That's what we planned for. I was really hoping that I didn't get cholestasis for the third time. There's not really anything you can do to prevent it, but I was just really hoping that somehow it wouldn't show up. About, I guess, 20 weeks, I was told that I had complete placenta previa, so that was super fun. My maternal-fetal medicine doctor explained it, and this is for everybody who gets diagnosed with that. It made my brain so much more calm. He told me that your uterus is a muscle. It's juicy, and it has all of these blood vessels. Your cervix is a connective tissue. It doesn't have all of that. Naturally, your placenta is going to gravitate toward where it can get the most nutrients. It almost always resolves itself because it's not going to get what it needs off of your connective tissue. I just banked on what he said, and by 28 weeks, it had gone so far up that it wasn't a concern at all. Around 24 weeks, I started seeing a chiropractor for severe SPD. My pelvis was on fire. It was grinding, and all of the things. It was worse than with my daughter. I didn't have it at all with my first son, but man, it was back with a vengeance with my third pregnancy. The chiropractic care helped so much. If anybody is in the Natchez, Mississippi area, my chiropractor moved to Natchez, Mississippi after she helped me. But anyway, that's where she is if you're near there and you need a good Webster-certified chiropractor, she's amazing. Her name is Dr. Ashley Edwards. She helped me. Then she helped me with positioning and stuff. She's really good. That was 24 weeks. I started that. Early on in pregnancy, I had been coming from one doctor to the other in the same building, and I was really huffing it. My blood pressure was high. They let me sit for a minute and retest it, and it was fine. I didn't think anything of it until later on in pregnancy when that happened again. My maternal-fetal medicine doctor freaked out. He was like, “You've had two high blood pressure readings. We need to test you for preeclampsia.” That was in my third trimester at some point. I'm probably skipping around. He kept pinching me to see, and asking me if the swelling was normal. I kept telling him, “That's just my ankles. I just have big calves and ankles.” Every time, he would be like, “Is this swelling always like this?” I'm like, “That's not swelling. It's just what my ankles look like, but thank you.”Meagan: Oh my goodness. Aubrey: That was fun. I had to carry around my urine for 24 hours to the urine test. He said that I did have protein in my urine, but it didn't meet the threshold of preeclampsia, so I was not preeclamptic, but they were going to watch me for it. Toward the end, I did get, “Your baby's really big,” not from my OB, but from my maternal-fetal medicine. My OB– I guess I should rewind. I didn't even talk about how we had that conversation. My OB from the very start was so amazing. When I first came in, she was like, “I'm so excited for you.” She was like, “Is it okay if I tell Becca (my nurse from before)?” I said, “Yeah, you can tell her.” She texted Becca and told her. Becca and I stayed in touch through everything. She texted me, and she was excited for me. But I told my doctor that I wanted to try for a VBAC, and she said, “I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't see an issue.” She was like, “The only thing that could possibly present an issue is if your cholestasis comes back, and it's early on. But for now, let's plan for a vaginal birth, and that's the goal. If something changes, then we'll talk about it when it changes.”She's a very great doctor because you can talk to her, and you can be open with her and be honest and never feel like she's judging you for telling her how you feel. I can't tell you how many times I cried just with her telling me all kinds of different things. She just listens and never judges. We went through most of the pregnancy with that as the goal until at the end, around 32 weeks, my itching came back. They tested me, and I had elevated bile acids, so I was considered to have cholestasis. They put me on ursodiol. I only itched for a few hours, but I knew what the itching was. It's so different. I knew what it was. I never itched again the whole pregnancy. Even before I got on the medicine, before I had even picked up the prescription, the itching had stopped. I still took it. At that point, they were like, “Okay. We can't let you go into labor naturally. We're going to have to induce,” because that is an automatic induction. Then the whole thing with the preeclampsia came around a little bit after that, so my maternal-fetal medicine doctor was talking about, “We might need to do this at 35 or 36 weeks.” I was like, “I don't think I'm comfortable with that.” My doctor was like, “We'll see, but if you have preeclampsia, that changes everything.” My doctor, my OB doctor– I was talking to her about everything, and she was like, “The reality is that what you have could potentially be dangerous for baby. So every week from about 35 weeks on, we're just going to have to determine if baby is safer in or if baby is safer out, then at that point, we can determine how we are going to deliver the baby because we don't know what your body is going to be doing. We just have to see.” She said, “I'm not telling you that you can't have a VBAC. I'm just telling you that we need to be open to the possibility that it could turn into a C-section if this doesn't go the way we want.” She said, “I feel like as your doctor, I wouldn't be doing you any service if I didn't at least have this conversation with you because if it came to the point that we had to have a C-section, and we had never talked about it, then you would be like, where did this come from? I don't want you to feel blindsighted.” I appreciated it. I did leave really discouraged from that conversation. I cried because I thought that secretly she was trying to bait and switch me. But I should know that my doctor really is great. Anyway, so we went through the next couple of weeks where she would tell me, “Baby is safer in, so baby gets to stay in.” I had scheduled a lunch with Becca. I had asked her if she would be at my new baby's birth. She said she would be my labor and delivery nurse. We'd get to try it again. She was like, “I'm going to help you have a VBAC. You can totally do this.” We had lunch. I told her about the conversation that I had with my doctor. I said, “I just want the opportunity to try. If I get to try and something happens and it doesn't work out, then I'll be okay with that. I just want to try because I know my body can birth a baby.” I said, “I don't have to have the epidural, but if that's what makes her comfortable, I'm okay with that because I've had the epidural before. It's not like I'm anti-epidural. I'll have it if that makes her more comfortable.” I've realized that she is a person with trauma, and I knew that what I was asking her to do was scary for her because of what happened and because probably most people don't know, but cholestasis comes with the risk of placental abruption. It does something to the vascular structure, so it's not that it causes it, but it makes you more susceptible to placental abruption. I knew that she was worried about that. I knew that everything else that had popped up and popped up and popped up, she probably was like, “I don't think I want to do this anymore.” I told Becca all that, and she said, “Have you ever told your doctor that?” I said, “No,” because she knows her. She works with her. She said, “I think if you have that conversation with her, and you tell her just like you told me that she would feel a lot differently about it.” The next appointment was the appointment where we were going to do my first cervical check. We needed to know what my body was doing, so if I had to induce, they knew. Meagan: Where you were at. Aubrey: Yeah. It was one that I wanted and that I needed, I think, in that situation. Before she checked me, I knew that this time if she checked me and it wasn't doing anything that she was probably going to be leaning more toward C-section because I was going to have to be delivering within that week or a few days after based on everything that was going on. When I got in there, I said, “Before you check me, I want to tell you something.” I said, “I just want to tell you this so you don't think that my response to whatever happens in the check is me begging or anything like that. I just want you to know that this is how I feel.” I told her everything I told Becca. I told her that I wanted to meet her halfway and do whatever made her comfortable as long as I got to try. She said, “Okay. Let's just check you and see what's going on.” She checked me, and she said, “You're soft. You're 1 centimeter dilated, and we can have a VBAC.” She said– hold on. Let me get myself together. She said, “I'm uncomfortable with this, but the reason that I'm okay with this is because I trust you. I trust you enough to know that when you tell me your body can do this, I believe you. I know that you trust me enough to know that if I tell you it's time to call it, then you'll believe me and we'll call it.” She said, “The reason that we're doing this is because we have a mutual trust and understanding. We can be honest with each other.”I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I mean, I was just so excited. On the way home, I got into a wreck. I totaled my car. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Aubrey: Yeah. It wasn't as bad because it was totaled because my airbag came out, but it was in very slow bumper-to-bumper traffic. I had to go back to the hospital. She was on-call, and she was like, “Why are you here?” I had to be monitored for that, but everything was okay. Saturday at midnight was my induction. I came in, and they started my IV. It took them a while because I have really weird veins and they are hard to stick. Eventually, they called in an anesthesiologist to use his machine to find my veins. If anybody has hard-to-stick veins, you can use an anesthesiologist, and it works like a charm. He got my vein, and we started fluids. About 30 minutes later, it was probably at 2:30 or so whenever the Pitocin was in. I had my first baby contraction. Rebecca– a different Rebecca, but her name was Rebecca– said, “Okay, here's the schedule we're going to go on.” I forgot to mention this too, but right before my induction, my husband surprised me with his VBAC certification doula course. He had gone through the doula course. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Aubrey: He went through The VBAC Link doula course. He was like, “Surprise! I can be your doula.” Meagan: That is amazing. Aubrey: It was cute. My husband, when she starts telling me the schedule of how we were going to do everything, was like, “Excuse me, I think we need to not be going every 30 minutes. We need to be going every 45 to an hour.” He was so well-educated about the whole thing. She did. She did it slow at first, then we did that through the night. I don't remember if I slept or not, but Becca came on her shift at 7:00. She was like, “Okay. You're doing good, but here's the reasons why I think that we need to increase the interval. We were having contractions, but we need to get a pattern going.” She told me why. I agreed with her that I was okay with it as long as it didn't go faster than 30 minutes. We did that, and that started to actually get a pattern which was really nice. She is a brilliant nurse, and she knows what she's doing. She was like, “We're going to get you moving. Come on. Get up. We're getting out of bed.” She had me walking down the hall, and with the peanut ball, and sitting on the ball. My doctor came in around 9:00. She told me that she thought we needed to break my water. I was really nervous about that because in my research of what happened to my placenta, I had found that it was likely that I had a placental abruption due to the rapid decompression of my uterus. My doctor agreed that that's probably what happened, but when they broke my water, because my vessels were already weak, the pressure suctioned it off. I was really worried about breaking my water. She was like– I've never seen her be so stern with me before because she's always so calm and nice. She said, “Aubrey, I'm very uncomfortable right now. I do not want to see you have a rupture. I do not want to see your placenta detach. We need to be real about this.” She said, “You have a lot of fluid. If we do not let some of that fluid out, your baby is not going to drop. You have a lot of fluid.” I did. I guess I forgot to mention that. I wasn't quite poly, but I was pretty close to having poly.Meagan: Borderline. Aubrey: Yeah. I told her that I was scared. She said, “You cannot make decisions based off of fear. You have to make decisions based off of what is happening and what is fact. The facts are that your baby is high. Your body is contracting. You have a pattern, but your baby is not dropping. There is a reason, and it's likely because of the fluid level.” So, she said, “I can break your water in a way that is not aggressive. I will just cut a tiny little slit and let it come out on its own, then it will come out.” I agreed. I mean, when I step back and look at it, I was like, “She's right. Scientifically, the baby is buoyant and is just floating there.” Come to find out, I definitely had poly. I had so much fluid. When it finally came out, Becca was like, “I don't think I've ever seen that much fluid come out of somebody.” It was the exact thing that the baby needed. He came down, and immediately, I went from 4 centimeters to 6 in an hour. I could feel my body doing very differently. It was changing differently than it had before. I started to get nauseous and shaky. I knew that I was probably getting closer to go-time. I told Becca, “You might want to get the guy to come give the epidural now. I promised her I would get the epidural, and if we're going to get it, we're probably going to need to get it now.” She was like, “Yep. Let's go ahead and get it put in.” She had him put it in really light though so I could still move my legs and wiggle my toes. I could even put pressure on my legs which was nice. That was maybe at 2:00 in the afternoon or 3:00. Oh no. I got the epidural at almost 5:00. I was way off on the time. It was almost at 5:00 that I got my epidural. I had been between a 6 and a 7 and about 70% effaced. After the epidural, they had to go to an emergency, her and my doctor. They came back afterward, and me and my husband were playing Scrabble. I started throwing up. I had the bag, and I was like, “I need to throw up.” Becca came in and she was like, “You're throwing up? This is the best!” She was like, “It's time. It's time.” I was like, “How do you know?” She was like, “I'm telling you. I'm telling you.” She checked me, and then Dr. Barrios came in, and she was like, “Okay, Aubrey. We're going to have this baby.” My husband caught the moment. He has a picture of me the second that she told me I was going to have my VBAC. It was just the least flattering picture I could possibly have, but it's so cool because it's a live picture, and I could see the wave of emotion washing over me. I could feel pretty much everything. I mean, I'm sure if I had no epidural whatsoever, and I think Becca said she turned it down, but I'm sure it was way more intense if I was doing it without completely. I could feel everything. I could feel the ring of fire. I could feel opening up. To me, it didn't feel like I had to poop. It felt like I had a bowling ball just sitting there. They were still setting up while I was trying to push. They were like, “Wait. Let somebody get there, so we can catch it.” Right as they were finished setting up and getting dressed and everything, I was like, “Okay, we're pushing now.” I pushed. I don't remember how many times I pushed, but I felt the head come out. I said, “Is that what the head feels like?” She was like, “Yep. That was the head. We just need one more push and we can get the body.” I pushed. He was out in 4 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yep. It was crazy. I had to go back and make sure I was not crazy. I looked at the timestamps of the pictures because I was like, “There was no way that it was that fast. It felt like an eternity.” It was 4 minutes. Everybody cried. My husband got a picture of the first time they put him on my chest. As soon as I pushed him out, it was like all of the trauma and everything from before just washed off of me. It was so amazing. Meagan: I bet it was so healing for you to see that you could have a different experience. Aubrey: It was. Meagan: Even though you had a different experience with your first, after having that experience the second time, I'm sure that weighed over you for sure.Aubrey: Yeah. I love the fact that both my doctor and my nurse from the time before were there and we all got to do it again. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that. I bet this was really healing for your provider and your nurse, and not even just healing for your provider, but something that stepped up her experience to see that birth could go a different way after a very traumatic experience. Aubrey: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I hope that. I would say she's not, “Woo, I love VBACs.” She was not anti-VBAC at all, but I would like to think that it helped her see VBACs in a more positive and more probable light. Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. I think you probably did a lot for her that she may not have even known that you did. Aubrey: She did a lot for me. She's the best. The sad thing is that I have different insurance now so if I got pregnant again, I can't have her. But she's incredible. She really is. My baby– we didn't have a name picked out. One of the other nurses, Jordan, who helped me deliver my baby was like, “I know you don't have a name picked out. You don't have to use this if you don't want to, but I was just thinking that y'all wanted a cute, short name that started with A, and Becca's last name is Anders, and it would just be really cute.” So we named our son Anders.Meagan: Cute. Oh my gosh. That's adorable. I bet Becca is so happy. Aubrey: Yeah. When she left the hospital that night, because she charted forever and she left at 11:00 that night, we still hadn't picked out a name. Jordan came in after she had left. She suggested it, and we were like, “That's it. That's his name.” I sent her a picture of the announcement with his name on it. She said, “I had to pull my car over on the road. Don't do that to me while I'm driving.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is so cool and so special.Aubrey: Yeah. There were so many times on The VBAC Link where I see people who are like, “I don't know if I should do it. I'm scared.” Just do it. Just try. If you succeed, it changes you. It's so, so powerful. Meagan: It really is. It's hard to explain. It's so hard to explain that feeling that you get after having a VBAC. It's unreal. It really is unreal. We just had a client the other day who had to be induced due to some pretty severe preeclampsia, and she was a VBAC. The second she found out that she had preeclampsia and needed to be induced, I think a lot of her faith slipped and her belief that it was going to happen slipped. We too have a very raw, beautiful, live photo of the second she saw her baby and her hands reaching down to grab the baby. It tells the whole story within that and that one image tells her whole story. It's incredible. It's incredible. Aubrey: The picture that I submitted to y'all is a picture of right when they put him on my chest, and I mean, it was so surreal. Another thing that I think I didn't really mention is that there was a point when– because I had so much going on. I had all of these different complications and week to week. We don't know if you're going to have a baby this week. It was so stressful. Eventually, I just had to say, “Okay, God. You healed my baby. You started his heart. You healed his brain. You can make my body do what it's supposed to do. I can only do so much. I can eat the dates. I can drink the tea, but after a certain point, there's nothing else I can do other than just walk it out and just trust that God's going to walk me through that.” I had to keep reminding myself of that with every single step because it got really hard. There's a community called “Labor Nurse Mama”, and I was a member of that community too. There's a doula on there. Her name is Lamay Graham. I think she's in Milwaukee. I'm going to tell you where she is, but she's a doula, and she's incredible. We would have these live chats and Zoom calls. They would talk to you.She would help remind me, “You can only do so much, Aubrey. You're doing everything that you can. Stop putting it on you because your body is going to do what it's going to do, and you're not going to change that the more you stress yourself out. You have to just trust God.” She is one of the reasons I kept being able to come back to reality. It was because she would remind me, “You have to just remember. Stop trying to do it all yourself.” Meagan: Yeah. We have to trust, have faith, and do everything we can within our own power, but then understand that there are going to be other things, and you have to have faith in those things. The more educated we are and prepared we are, we can navigate through those things. Well, I am just so stinking happy for you. I can see the emotion. I can hear the emotion. I saw the pictures. If you guys are listening right now, go over to our Instagram or Facebook page, and check out this beautiful image of her just holding your baby. You've got Jordan in the background, your nurse Jordan. I mean, really, it's so beautiful and I'm so happy for you. Congrats. Aubrey: Thanks. I'm sorry I was kind of all over the place. Meagan: No. Listen, that's okay. That is totally okay. I'm just so happy you are here to share your stories. Aubrey: Thanks. I appreciate you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Meagan and Julie tackle hot topics like the VBAC calculator, epidurals, and uterine rupture. What does the evidence actually say? And why do providers give such drastically different statistics from one practice to the next? When you know the facts, you are equipped to take charge of your VBAC journey!VBAC CalculatorACOG: Deciding Between a VBAC and a Repeat CesareanVBAC Calculator Online LibraryEpidural Side EffectsVBA2C PubMed ArticleEvidence Based BirthⓇ: The Evidence on VBACUterine RuptureHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast, and guess what? We have a special guest for you today, and that is me. It's Julie Francom. I am here today with Meagan, and I am joining her for a really cool information-packed episode debunking some common misunderstandings about VBAC and showing you what the evidence is and where you can find more evidence-based information about VBAC. Without further ado, your host, Meagan. How was that?Meagan: Oh my gosh. Thanks Julie for the amazing welcome. Oh, so fun. It's so fun. Yes. I am so excited for this episode because it's one of the last episodes with you and I. No, it's not one of the last episodes. It is the last episode of you and I of the year which is so crazy. It is so crazy. Julie: This year has flown. Time is wild. Time is wild. Meagan: It's so strange to me, but that's okay. We will welcome in 2025, and we will say goodbye to 2024. We want to say goodbye to it with, like she said just a really great evidence-based packed episode for you guys.I feel like all year we have gotten messages like, “I had a C-section. I'm being told I can't ever have a vaginal birth. Is this true? Is VBAC safe or possible?”We've had, “I've had one and two C-sections. I've had three C-sections. Is VBAC possible? My provider gave me a 20% chance to VBAC. Is that true? Can I VBAC? Do I really have that low of a chance?”How about this one? This one was more recent that I've heard from our last recording. “You have a 60% chance of uterine rupture if you choose to VBAC.” Ugh. Seriously, so many things that we have heard along the way where it's just–Julie: Lies, lies, lies, lies. It's lies. Let's just call it what it is. Meagan: Aggravating. Julie: For the most part, I do not think providers mean to spread lies or misinformation. I do think that there is a lot of information related to birth in general, but especially VBAC about how this is the way we've always done it. They are just regurgitating information that they have heard from some unreliable source somewhere and aren't really taking the time to keep up with the actual facts about VBAC, about birth, and about anything in general. Also, our system is not set up for continuing educating all of the providers in all of the things. Our hospital providers, I feel like in some capacity we have to give them some grace because they are incredibly overworked. They work crazy hours. They see lots of things and deal with a lot. The medical system is that way. But I also feel like who's responsibility is it to make sure that you are providing the best care? But how can you when the system is working against not only the parents but also the providers and the nurses and everybody. It's really hard because it puts the responsibility on you, the parent, in order to really dig and discover what your options are so that you can make the right choices that benefit you because the system is not set up to support you in any other way besides their hospital policies and following their rules, etc. So, yeah. I don't want this to turn into a provider-bashing episode. I don't think it will either. Sometimes, I think with me talking especially with me being more salty now, it can come across that we are anti-provider or whatever which we are not, but the system is just really frustrating. It takes everybody's efforts to try and change it, everybody's efforts. Not one part of the system can be passive if we want to change it and we want to influence it for better.Meagan: I agree so much. Like you said, we don't want to ever shame the hospital system or providers, but a lot of times, the things we are saying definitely does happen. But it's because there is a lot of fault. There is a lot of fault in these areas. Like you were saying, a lot of these things are lies. The biggest and hardest thing that I found when I was going through my VBAC journey. Julie, I wanted to speak for you and probably say that is the same for you, and that's why we created The VBAC Link: How to Prep VBAC Course is because we didn't know what was right and what wasn't. We just didn't know, and there were so many avenues on Google that you could go down, and you could actually find truth on both sides sometimes even. Julie: And trying to figure out which is true and credible and which is not sometimes is really tricky.Meagan: It's really, really tricky. We want to talk more about that today. We recently talked about hospital policies and what that means and how to go about those, but along with hospital policies come a lot of other things that providers do or suggest or say, so we've got this random policy that was created over here, then we've got all of these random things that are being said over here. We want to know our options. We know hospital policies are what they are. If you haven't listened to the episode, go listen. It's back in November, last month. Go look for it. But today, we are going to be talking about what is the evidence. What are the facts?Let's talk about the VBAC calculator. Let's just start right there because this is where a lot of providers actually begin to determine someone's ability or qualifications if they can VBAC. They'll pull out this list, this calculator, that is online. You can actually get it online. If you want to play around with it, I'll try and make sure to put the link in our show notes because I actually find it very interesting to play around with. We used to do that when we would do in-person courses. We would have everyone pull out their phones, type in the calculator, and type in different scenarios. It was pretty mind-blowing to see how much it could change based off of the answer that you give this computer. You want a VBAC. You have determined that a VBAC is something you want to explore. You want to learn what you can do to have a VBAC. You go to your provider and you go, “Hey, I've had a C-section. I don't want that experience this time. I want a different experience. I would like to have a VBAC,” or what they would call a TOLAC, a trial of labor after a Cesarean. And they're like, “Great. That's wonderful.” Then they're like, “Let's talk about it.” They pull up their calculator and they ask you questions like what, Julie?Julie: They ask you questions like, hold on. I was just digging into the history of the VBAC calculator a little bit more because I was curious about it. They ask you what was the reason for your previous Cesarean? How much do you weigh? It used to ask what your ethnicity was then they docked you if you were black or Hispanic. It also asks, let's see. Meagan: It asks if there was an arrest of descent. Arrest of descent is if you needed a Cesarean because your baby didn't come down. It asks about your history as in have you had a vaginal birth before? Have you had a VBAC? What was the reason for your previous Cesarean? It even asks if you've been treated for hypertension. Interesting. Julie: Interesting. Meagan: Yeah. So height, weight–Julie: Oh, because the chronic hypertension requiring treatment is what replaced the race. When they replaced the race question with do you have chronic hypertension requiring treatment? It may serve as an obvious proxy for race and appears to function similarly in the revised calculator in terms of statistical performance. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Yeah, it says that right on the website. “The information on this website describes the outcome of vaginal birth after Cesarean in term pregnancy for population individuals who receive care at hospitals within (blah, blah, blah) network.” It says, “The information on this website is not intended to be the only basis for making care decisions for individuals nor is it intended to be definitive,” meaning it's not going to be yes, you have to have this or this is the exact chance of you having a VBAC, but yet we have so many providers who go off of this as in point-blank fact.Julie: Like it's the law and like it's a crystal ball. Meagan: Really though. It's so frustrating. Sorry, what were you going to say before?Julie: I just sent you this link from what I was digging into. It's so interesting about the VBAC calculator. It's interesting because first of all, a couple things. The likelihood of the VBAC calculator being accurate for you, the higher percentage of having a successful VBAC, the more likely it's going to be. It's more accurate when the predicted success rates are above 60%. The lower success rate, the more likelihood it is to be inaccurate. Do you know what that tells me? That tells me that most people who attempt a VBAC are going to be successful. That's what that tells me. It's just so stupid because I mean, the development of the calculator was in the early 2000s. From the outside, it actually looks like a good sample size. There were 11,856 people with one prior Cesarean between 1999 and 2002. It was analyzed whether they had a successful VBAC or an unplanned repeat Cesarean. It was analyzed retrospectively. Retrospectively means they looked back on births. It doesn't mean that they did the study when people were pregnant. They looked at it after it had already been done. I like retrospective studies because there's a lot. It really removes the chance for bias related to the study. The interesting thing is that the risk factors that they chose were related to BMI, if you're overweight, age, history of prior vaginal deliveries– so did you have a prior vaginal birth or not– if the prior Cesarean was because of labor dystocia, so that's stalled labor, or your race– black or Hispanic ethnicity. They used these criteria to determine whether or not you were going to be successful in having a VBAC. Here's the stupid thing about this. What it doesn't take into account is the bias in our system against people of color and against people who are overweight. It does not take into account the bias and the different ways people who are overweight and people who are not white are treated in the system. I mean, there are just so many flaws against it as well, but also, I don't know. It says here– sorry. Before I get to my also. It says here– first of all, there are only 19 academic hospitals that were included, so I feel like the sample size of 19 academic hospitals, so university hospitals, and it's between 1999 and 2002. Also, there was a lot of backlash from all of the controversies surrounding uterine rupture in the mid-1990s from that carrying over into that as well. If you didn't know this, they started inducing VBACs with Cytotec in the mid-1990s. It increased the risk of uterine rupture like crazy. I'm not going to do a history lesson right now, but this was only 4 years after all of that. There was probably still a lot of fear and everything related to uterine rupture and everything during all of the time that they were collecting this data. Sorry, I'm probably really nerding out right now. But the thing is that when the predicted success rate was over 60%, it tended to be more inaccurate when it was less than 60%. Accuracy of lower estimates was mixed but generally decreased as predicted success rates declined. I said this before and I'll say it again. My first client ever as a doula had a predicted success rate of 4%, like the number 1-2-3-4. You count to 4. That was her predicted success rate, and she pushed her baby out in 20 minutes. So, I think the VBAC calculator is garbage.  Also, ACOG says in their most recent guideline, actually for the most couple VBAC bulletins that they have put out, is that a low chance of success is not a good reason to exclude somebody from attempting to have a VBAC. But yet, there are so many providers who will not take you if your predicted chance of success is less than 60%. But what did we just say? We just said that if your predicted success rate is less than 60%, it's less likely to be accurate. Isn't that stupid?Meagan: Yes. The other thing I have noticed from providers who do the VBAC calculator is that not only if they say your chances are lower, if they are doing it and it is lower than 50-60%, they automatically go in their mind and they're like, “Oh, she has a lower chance.” They may start being tolerant, but I think it's something to watch out for. If your provider is pulling out this calculator and putting too much weight on the calculator, it might be something to watch out for and understand that there may be a bait and switch coming up or that provider may not end up feeling comfortable with you being able to VBAC or TOLAC. We've talked about this with other providers where they say they are uncomfortable. That is a really good time to say, “You are not comfortable with this. I am comfortable with this. We are not a good match.” Julie: Yes. Don't let your provider dictate how your birth goes. I love that you brought that up, Meagan, because I'm in a member of a Facebook group for labor and delivery nurses. There are 12,000 labor and delivery nurses in there. I'm mostly quiet. I mostly watch because I like to see the climate of the profession and the attitudes around VBAC, birth photography, doulas, etc. There was a post actually this morning in there. The nurse asked, “What is your hospital's protocol around vaginal breech deliveries?” I was like, “Oh, this is going to be good.” I went through the comments, and I was stalking the comments because I know that having a vaginal breech delivery in a hospital is a freaking unicorn. It's a unicorn. You don't usually see it. It was interesting to see the labor and delivery nurses' comments. One of them stuck out to me. I almost commented back, but I pulled myself back. I was like, “This is for labor and delivery nurses. I don't want to stir the pot. I'll stir this pot in other places, but I don't want to stir the pot in this community most of the time.” One of the nurses said that vaginal breech delivery carries risks, and it is up to the provider and patient to decide what risks are safest and what risks to assume. I rolled my eyes at that because it should be like that. It should be the provider AND the patient together to decide the risk, but how often is it the provider only who decides the risks that these patients are going to take on? No. It's not the patient and the provider. It's the provider deciding. It's the provider deciding. Nowhere in the normal, typical, standard conversation does it include providers and patients making decisions. Not real ones. Not when they disagree. Not when they want a little flexibility or not when they want to go against hospital policy, right? Meagan: Yeah. Julie: I mean, there are sometimes, but it's really rare. Meagan: This comment reminds me of the many scenarios that I see or hear within my own clients here in Utah of, “Hi, I really want a VBAC. I met with my provider, and they said they would let me do.” It reminds me of the “let me”. This provider looked at me, read my history, and said that this is what I can and cannot do. This is what they let me do. Julie: Or they led me to the calculator.Meagan: Yeah. We're losing that conversation. Women of Strength, I encourage you to go forward and have conversation with your providers, especially if you are getting this kickback and especially if you are not being told the risks for both VBAC and repeat Cesarean, and you're just being told, “Oh, you have a 46% chance of VBAC based off of this calculator, so I'll let you try, but don't count on it.” Seriously? If I hear anymore providers, ugh. It's so frustrating.Julie: They're doing you a favor. “We'll let you try. Okay, you can try.” Or they say, “But you have to go into labor by 40 weeks or we'll schedule a C-section, but we won't induce you.” Come on. Come on. They're trying to be this savior. We'll let you try, but…Meagan: Don't stand for that unless that's what you're okay with. I can't tell you, “No. You can't see anybody like that.” That's not my place, but I will say that if you're having a provider in the very beginning pull out this calculator telling you that they'll let you try, but the chances are low, your pelvis hasn't done it before, don't know if it will do it again, your cervix didn't dilated to 10, these are problems. These are red flags.  Okay, so the VBAC calculator, we talked about it. We talked about the stats. We talked about our rant. Now, let's talk about uterine rupture. This is a big one that I feel like hovers. It's that dark cloud. Julie: The elephant in the room. Meagan: Yeah. It hovers over people and their fear. I see it daily within our community. “I really want a VBAC. A different experience is so important to me, but in the end, I'm so scared. I'm so scared of uterine rupture.” Valid. I just want to validate your fears right now. It's okay that you feel scared. It's valid that you feel nervous about it. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: It's also understandable that you may feel extra nervous about it because the outside world talks so poorly about it. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: They make it sound scary. It is scary. Julie: It can be, yeah, when it happens. It is. Meagan: When it happens, it can be, but the chances are actually quite low, you guys. We want to talk a little bit about it. I know we've talked about it in the past, but I feel like you can't talk about uterine rupture enough. Julie: Yeah, it keeps coming up, so we'll keep talking about it. Meagan: It keeps coming up. It keeps coming up.Okay, so let's talk about one C-section. You've had one C-section. Your baby didn't come down. You pushed for 2 hours. You had a C-section. You dilated to a 5. You didn't progress. They did all of the interventions. You had a C-section. You got an epidural. Your blood pressure dropped. Your baby didn't do very well. Decelerations. You had a C-section. There are lots of scenarios of why we have C-sections. One C-section– Julie, let's talk about the evidence of uterine rupture after one C-section.Julie: So here's the thing. There are multiple studies out examining uterine rupture and things like that. It's interesting because I feel like it does vary. There are some studies with very small sample studies that have 0% uterine ruptures in their studies, and there are some studies that show higher rates. Now, what I have found as I have been digging is that the studies that are the most credible and most reliable will usually have a rate of rupture between 0.2%-0.9%. I feel like if you have anybody telling you that your chance of rupture is half of 1% or you have a 1% chance of rupture or that the chance of uterine rupture is less than 1% or 1 in 200 or 1 in 100, all of those, I feel like, are pretty accurate representations of what the actual risk of rupture is. Now, there are lots of things that contribute to that of course, but I feel like if you ever have a provider tell you, “Oh, it's about 1%”, that's pretty cool. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty reliable to know that they are within–Julie: Within range.Meagan: They are looking at some study that is within accurate range. Julie: Or I think 0.4%. One of the bigger studies that we cite in our course is 0.4% or 1 in 250. Those are all that for me, personally, I would feel that yeah, you are presenting the data pretty accurately. Yeah. I feel like you're trying to lead this a certain direction.Meagan: No, I'm not. That's exactly something I wanted to talk about is how it can range. You may see something that's 0.2% and you may see something that's 0.47, and you may see something that's 0.7, so I love that you pointed that out. Julie: Yeah. I think that's why the more I go on, I used to say 0.4% or half of a percent whenever somebody would ask me, “What's the rate of uterine rupture?” Those are the numbers I would go to, but now, I feel like it's a little more fluid, and I feel like there's more nuance to that. Meagan: Yeah. I usually say around 1%. What about people who are wanting to VBAC after two C-sections? Because this is another big ask, then it gets even stickier.Julie: So sticky. Meagan: And when we talk about 3+. The evidence after two C-sections– again, everyone has different reasons, but I was told slightly over 1%. Julie: Right.Meagan: 0.7% to 1.1-1.4%. Julie: Well, here's the thing, too. There are not a lot of studies about VBAC after two Cesareans. There's just not, but there are two large studies in the ACOG VBAC bulletin that ACOG cites, and it actually says that– I'm actually going to quote the guideline right now. It says, “Women who have had two previous low transverse Cesarean deliveries should be considered for a trial of labor after Cesarean (TOLAC). However, other factors should also be considered to determine the likelihood of successful VBAC.”Now, here's the thing. It cites two studies in their bulletin as far as risk of uterine rupture. One study that they cite shows that there is not increased chance of uterine rupture from one to two Cesareans. There is one that shows no statistical differences. Now, the other study that they reference shows double the risk of rupture. So, what? 0.5% to 1%? I think it was 1.2% is what the ACOG bulletin says. I'm not sure. I don't have the actual bulletin pulled up right here in front of my face except for that. Meagan: This is another thing where it depends on what you're reading. Some of them are 0.1-1.5% or 1-1.5% and that's even on the higher end of the chances. Julie: Right. The interesting is that ACOG even says that, yet people are going to go say double and triple, or whatever. They're going to make up all of these crazy statistics. Now, gosh dangit. I literally had that guideline. Do you have it open?Meagan: No. The ACOG? No. I don't.Julie: I'm going to find it exactly because we've been called out for this. We literally quoted the exact phrase from ACOG and got thrown under the bus for spewing misinformation when it was literally a quote from ACOG, but whatever. Meagan: While you are finding that, there is an article showing vaginal birth after two Cesareans There was a systemic review and a meta analysis of the rate of adverse outcomes in a VBAC after two. It talks about how the VBAC after two success rate was around 71.1% and the uterine rupture rate was 1.63%, so that is within this. We will have all of these here. If we are quoting something, we're going to make sure that we have it here in the show notes. Please, please, please make sure to go down and check it out. You're going to want more information. We don't have all the time to go over all of these, but I think these are such great reads.  Sorry, have you already found it?Julie: Yep. Meagan: Okay, go ahead. Julie: Excuse me while I clear my throat and crack my knuckles. I'm ready. Let's go. Oh, do you know what? This is actually a pdf from an actual publication, so it's not going to be the exact page that I said. There is a whole section called, “More than one previous Cesarean delivery”. Now, what it says about the studies, I'm going to quote it exactly. “Two large studies with sufficient size to control for confounding variables reported on the risks for women with two previous Cesarean deliveries undergoing TOLAC. One study found no increased risk of rupture, 0.9% versus 0.7% in women with one versus multiple prior Cesarean deliveries whereas the other noted a risk of uterine rupture that increased from 0.9% to 1.8% in women with one versus two prior Cesarean deliveries. “Both studies reported some increased risk in morbidity in women with more than one prior Cesarean delivery, although the absolute magnitude of the difference in those risks was small.”Meagan: Mmm, send me the link so I can put the exact link in the show notes so everybody can go read more.Julie: Yeah. Yep. It also says, “The likelihood additionally retrospective–”. Remember, retrospective is looking back on data that already exists. “Retrospective cohort data has suggested that the likelihood of achieving VBAC appears to be similar for women with one previous Cesarean delivery and women with more than one previous Cesarean delivery. Given the overall data, it is reasonable to consider women with two previous low transverse Cesarean delivers to be candidates for TOLAC, and to counsel them based on the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving successful VBAC.” Meagan: Hey, see? They're even saying that it's reasonable. Here we are. It's reasonable. But then, there are so many people who are like, “Nope. Out of the question. It is not acceptable. We will not support VBAC after two C-sections.” Julie: Actually, I don't think you are supposed to publish this. You might not be able to distribute it. Meagan: Oh. Julie: Because you just do a search on the dark web for ACOG VBAC bulletin 205 pdf and it will pull up. I promise. Meagan: Okay. There you go, everybody.Julie: I just don't want you to do anything illegal. Meagan: Yeah. Get on a search. Get on a search. I do want to talk when it comes to three. When it comes to three, the hardest part for me with three C-sections being shut down is that the evidence is still not there. The concrete evidence is not being studied that much. Julie: Mhmm. Even the studies that do exist, they don't have super large sample sizes. They are very old. They are 20+ years old, so that's the best data that we have to use. Sometimes those studies are just automatically disqualified because of their age, their smaller sample sizes, and things like that so it's hard to make any definitive statements about its safety or risks. Meagan: Yeah. Then there is evidence with induction. Increasing around 1.1% if you use Pitocin. A lot of people say, “We can't use Pitocin. It increases it astronomically.” I mean, to some, 1.1% and having that be their rupture rate, that may make sense, but for a lot of people, 1.1% is still quite low. I did just want to throw it out there that the risk of uterine rupture is not dismissed because you schedule a C-section. It's not. Julie: That's true. In fact, you are more likely to undergo a uterine rupture during the Cesarean than you are by attempting a VBAC. Meagan: You are? I thought it was 0.06. Julie: No, it's in our course. I have the charts from the National Institute of Health. Because of the pressure during the surgical procedure, your uterus is more likely to rupture. Now, granted, it's probably “safer” to have a uterine rupture on the operating room table because baby is already coming out, but there is data that shows it. I'm pretty sure there are graphs and charts in there from the National Institute of Health. Meagan: Yeah. I'm going to go find it. I was reading about it. It was 0.02%. It's just really important to know that it's not just eliminated. Your risk is not just eliminated. Okay, let's talk about– and anything else you want to talk about with that?Julie: Mm-mmm. Meagan: Let's talk about epidurals and the risk that we have with that. Julie: Not ugh about epidurals. That sound was not about epidurals in general. It's about how I know where you're going with this. Sorry. Meagan: No, it's okay. I just want to talk about the risk with epidurals because a lot of people don't know that some of the things that happen after epidurals can be placed or things to do before if you're planning to get an epidural like hydrating and making sure that we're good there. I want to talk a little bit about epidurals. Epidurals can do a few things. They can lower our blood pressure. That's one of the most common that I have seen right out of the gate. But it's given, and the blood pressure drops. Mom's blood pressure drops. Baby's heart stops responding. Julie: Baby's heart rate drops a little bit too.Meagan: Yeah. In fact 13 out of 100 women have epidurals cause low blood pressure. Epidurals can also increase infections. Now, yes. Infections are in our back and stuff, but I'm actually talking about vaginally because I feel like the vagina is an open door. Once an epidural is placed–Julie: Then you have the catheter too. That will give UTIs. Meagan: Yep. Yes. We've got a catheter, then it's like, “Oh, I can check you. You can't feel that.” We keep introducing bacteria. Julie: More cervical checks. Meagan: Yes. Julie: Increased infection.Meagan: Yes. It also can cause problems urinating because we've got this catheter. It can sometimes be placed for hours and hours.Julie: Yeah. 24 hours sometimes depending on how long you're in labor.Meagan: Yes. Approximately 18 out of 100 women will have urinary issues because of cather and things like that. It's kind of interesting. Epidurals can also cause itching. Is there morphine in epidural? I think that's why.Julie: Fentanyl.Meagan: Okay. It wears off, and it can cause itching. It can cause you to go so numb that you're unable to move and groove. Julie: These are small risks. They are small risks. It's okay to have an epidural. Don't be scared out of having one if that's what you want. You can still have a VBAC with an epidural.Meagan: I want to talk about that. I'm still going over these risks. Going into what you were saying, there's an article that I'm reading right now. It says that 75 out of 100 women who had an epidural and they were very satisfied with the pain relief that they received. 75 out of 100 is really great. That's really great. It says, “50 out of 100 women who were very satisfied with the pain relief.”Of opioids, sorry. It says, “Compared to 50 out of 100 women who were very satisfied with pain from opioids.” There are risks to epidurals, but there's also a lot of great things that come with epidurals because we can be more present and have less trauma. It comes to a point sometimes where labor– we talk about pain versus suffering, and if you're suffering, that's not usually going to lead to a positive experience.But, let's talk about the just-in-case epidurals. We have talked about this before. Julie: That's what my sound was for.Meagan: I had a feeling. The just-in-case epidurals are frustrating. We've talked about them before. It just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense. One of these days, I would like someone to sit down and try to make this make sense. It doesn't make sense to me. Is there anything else you would want to share?Julie: Just-in-case epidurals. I just want to do the math on it though. Just-in-case epidurals don't make sense. It's not logical. The idea is that a lot of hospitals will have a requirement that you have to have an epidural placed but not turned on. If you don't want to have it turned on, you don't have to have it turned on, but you have to have it placed just in case of a uterine rupture so they can give you an epidural quickly and go get the baby out without having to put you under general anesthesia because general anesthesia is riskier. That is true. The problem with that is that in order for an epidural to be dosed to surgical strength, it takes 15-20 minutes to be dosed to surgical strength even if it is turned on already. If you have a catastrophic uterine rupture where baby needs to be out in minutes, 15-20 minutes is not going to do it. You're going to be put under general anesthesia anyways. Even if you have an epidural, and baby needs to be out in seconds or minutes, then you will be put under general anesthesia. If there is time to wait, there is time to do a spinal block in the OR. It takes effect in 5 minutes, and boom. You don't have to be put under general anesthesia. So the math isn't mathing there whenever they do that.I've had clients ask when they say, “Hey, just-in-case epidural,” and my clients will be like, “Even if I have the epidural turned on and need the baby out immediately, how much time would it take to get to surgical strength or would I have to be put under general anesthesia anyways?” They'd be like, “Well, we'd probably have to put you under general anesthesia if it's a true emergency.” Every time you ask somebody, the math doesn't math. You can't explain it. Anyways, that is my two cents about that. I think that is the most nonsense VBAC policy ever because you can't make it make sense. It is not even make it make sense. You have people say that about everything nowadays. Make it make sense, but this one literally doesn't make sense.Meagan: Yeah. It's a tricky one. It's a really tricky one. There are risks to getting an epidural, but don't be scared of getting an epidural. It's still okay. It's still okay. Just know, if you are getting an epidural, do things like hydrate. Wait as long as you can. Make sure you go to the bathroom. Eat before. Get your blood sugar up. I'm trying to think of all of the other things. Don't think that just because you get an epidural, you have to get cervical exams anytime they want. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It's okay to turn your epidural down if you decide it's too heavy. Julie: There are also some providers who will tell you that you can't have an epidural with a VBAC because then how will they know if you have a uterine rupture? Anyway, the hospital policies that we see are just so different. They change and they are so drastically different even from one hospital to the next in the same area. Anyways. Meagan: Okay. Anything else that you want to cover or think that we should cover? Julie: No. Is there anything else pressing? I feel like we intended to cover more things, but we just keep chatting about it, but that's okay because there are some good stuff in this episode. Meagan: No, I think it's great. So if you guys have any questions or if you have any studies that you have found that contradict anything that we are saying, share it. Julie: Yeah. Send it over. Meagan: I would always love to read it. There are times where we miss updates studies or there are studies that we haven't seen, so please, if you have a study that either contradicts or goes along or says something slightly different, share it with us. You can email us at info@thevbaclink.com.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What do you do when your water breaks and FOUR days later, there's little sign of labor? For Sivan Dirks this meant almost drinking a castor oil smoothie! Instead, she leaned into the holistic and intuitive tools she'd gathered over her previous -and varied!- birth experiences, to have her most connected and physiologic birth yet. She shares with Adriana her three experiences which include a belly-birth breech preemie and two fast VBACs. They also talk about the importance of being intentional in your birth preparation to strike a balance between informed choices and a heart-centered approach.Sponsor offers - TIME SENSITIVE! NEEDED - Get 20% off at ThisIsNeeded.com with code BIRTHFULOAK ESSENTIALS - Get 15% off at OakEssentials.com with code BIRTHFUL15 AQUATRU - Get 20% off at AquaTru.com with code BIRTHFULGet the most out of this episode by checking out the resources, transcript, and links on its show notes page.  If you liked this episode, listen to our interview on The Purpose of Childbirth Pain and our episode on The Baby's Birth Experience.You can connect with Sivan on Instagram @rosecitybabypdx. You can connect with Birthful @BirthfulPodcast on Instagram or email us at podcast@Birthful.com. If you enjoy what you hear, download Birthful's Postpartum Plan FREE when you sign up for our weekly newsletter! You can also sign up for Adriana's Own Your Birth online BIRTH preparation classes and her Thrive with Your Newborn online POSTPARTUM preparation course at BirthfulCourses.com.Follow us on Goodpods, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, and anywhere you listen to podcasts.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/birthful/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Listen to today's episode to hear Meagan talk all about bicornuate, unicornuate, arcuate, and septate uteruses, uterine didelphys, and more.Though there can be complications, research is limited, and vaginal birth is often possible. Chat with your provider about your birthing desires, and don't be afraid to get multiple opinions!A Case of Vaginal Birth after Cesarean Delivery in a Patient with Uterine DidelphysUterine DifferencesSuccessful Vaginal Delivery after External Cephalic Version in a Woman with a Large Partial Uterine SeptumNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, and I am solo today. We will not be sharing a VBAC or CBAC story, but we're going to focus on our topic of the week. That is uterine abnormalities. So if you haven't listened to Flannery's episode last week, or I should say earlier this week, go check it out. Flannery has a bicornuate uterus, and we talked a little bit about the different types of uteruses, and her journey, and what happened or what was most common with her bicornuate uterus. But today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the different types of uteruses. It's kind of weird to think about, but we do. We have multiple shapes of our uteruses. I don't think it's really talked about a lot, so I thought it would be cool to jump on today and talk a little bit more about the uteruses. But, we do have a Review of the Week, so I wanted to jump on and share this review. It says, “I now recommend this podcast to every mom who will listen, even first-time moms. I tell them this is the podcast I wish I would have listened to before our first traumatic birth. It helped me process, learn, and heal so much after my son's birth. Two years later, pouring into numerous books, online courses, and more, we are preparing for our October VBAC. Their podcast has by far been the most favorite resource hands down. Thanks, Julie and Meagan, so much for what you do.”Thank you guys for your review. That review was left on Google, so if you wouldn't mind, press pause in just one moment, and go leave us a review. Your reviews help other Women of Strength come and find this podcast, find the blogs, find the course, find the doulas. You guys, I love this community so stinking much and believe that every mom, just like the reviewer said, and even first-time moms should be listening to this podcast. These stories that you guys share are absolutely incredible. The information that we share is invaluable. If you can, go to Google. Type in, “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review, or leave us a review wherever you are listening to your podcasts. Okay, everybody. Like I said, we are going to be diving into uterine abnormalities. We talked a little bit about Flannery. She had a bicornuate uterus. What is a bicornuate uterus? A bicornuate uterus is a heart-shaped uterus meaning the uterus has two horns making it look like the shape of a heart. With bicornuate uteruses, there are some things to know. There can be a higher chance of a breech baby. I'm going to share my source here with you. It's pregnancybirthbaby.org. We're going to have this in the show notes. I think that it is just so great. It's such a great visual and understanding on the different types. So yeah. They've got two horns. It doesn't reduce your chances of having a baby or getting pregnant. It can increase things like early miscarriage or an early preterm baby, or like I said, it can impact the position of the baby. But it's possible. VBAC is possible with that. The hardest thing about uterine abnormalities is there is not a ton of evidence or deep studies to dive into how it's impacting people who want to go on and have a vaginal birth or go for a, in the medical world, TOLAC or trial of labor after a Cesarean. If you have a uterine abnormality, it's something to discuss with your provider. Know you don't have to go with that first answer. You can get multiple opinions. Okay, another uterine abnormality or shape is– oh my gosh, you guys. Don't quote me on this. I will butcher how to say these. I will try my best. It's a didelphys uterus. It means that your uterus is split in two, and each side of your uterus has its own area. it also can increase your chance of having a premature birth, so if that is something that you have, I think that's something you want to discuss with your provider knowing that you could have a premature birth. We also know people who have premature VBACs all the time, but it's something to discuss. There's acruate, and that is a uterus that actually looks really similar to a normal-sized uterus but has a deeper dip in the top of the uterus in the womb. It doesn't affect your fertility. It can increase just a little bit of a later miscarriage. That is something to discuss, although sometimes providers will want to induce if everything is looking well at an earlier gestational age. Also, this one can impact the position of your baby, so being aware of that. Then there's septate. Again, I don't know. Sorry for butchering this, you guys. If you're a medical professional, sorry. It says, “A septate womb has the wall of a muscle that comes down the center of the uterus, and then it splits into those two areas and is divided by a membrane or a tight band of tissue.” It reminds me of a rubber band. It splits it down. It can also impact fertility and, again, increase the possible risk of miscarriage in the early stages or cause a premature baby. Once again, discuss with your provider if you have this what that means and what that means for VBAC birth in general. Then, let's see. There's also retroverted. That's a uterus that tips further back instead of that forward stage. Again, there are so many different types and shapes of uteruses. Sometimes we don't know what we have until we have a baby who is born. Sometimes it's once we have a Cesarean where they are like, “Oh, hey. You have this type of shaped uterus.” If you really feel like you need to know or you are having issues or anything like that, dive in with your provider and see if they can tell you what shape of uterus you have.Like I said, little is known about the outcome of VBAC with uterine abnormalities, but there is an article and it was back in 2019. It's called “A Case of Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Patient Who Has a Uterine Didelphys”. I want to talk a little bit more about that. As a reminder, that is the one that is split in two. If I recall, I think they even have their own cervixes. That can be interesting. But this is going to be a little bit more on this. They talk about it. There are only a few studies. The studies are low, like 165 women in the one study. It shows that those women with abnormalities found were statistically less likely to have VBAC. Again, we know that a lot of the time, these people have babies who are in less ideal positions or they are going into early preterm labor. There are things to be said about that. But the other small study is literally teeny tiny. It had 25 women with uterine abnormalities reported, and a VBAC rate was similar to women with a “normal” uterus. There are things to say there.Now, the other study showed that they were less likely to experience uterine rupture than women with normal uteruses, but then this one said that the uterine rupture rate was higher. So such little information. I mean, really, it's little information that I have been able to find so far. I'm going to dive in deeper and update you, but yeah. It says, “The actual rates in VBAC and uterine rupture in women with uterine abnormalities are more likely to be similar or less favorable than those women with normal uteruses.” So, keep that in mind. It goes on and says, “Some authors hypothesized that uterine abnormalities, especially unicornuate uteruses, are associated with decreased uterine muscle mass. So when we have decreased uterine muscle mass, that means it may not contract as effectively or strongly as it needs to, so that can lead to other things like arrest of descent or we were not getting into that active phase of labor, needing things like Pitocin and things to augment labor or they may have a harder time pushing out the baby because the uterus isn't helping as well. So we may have a higher chance of an assisted delivery like a vacuum or forceps. With all of this said, you guys, I want to leave it here with you to encourage you to speak with your provider, and get multiple opinions. If you have been told that you can't VBAC because of a certain situation, dive a little deeper with questions with your provider because again, the hardcore evidence is not really there. It's just low. I mean, it's there, but it's low. There's another article that says that uterine abnormalities are common in the general population with an estimated range of 1-15 per 1000% women. We know that there are people out there who have uterine abnormalities. I don't feel like it's talked about a ton, and that's why I wanted to come on today and talk a little about the different types, and of course, share with Flannery's episode with a bicornuate uterus showing that she still did go on to have a VBAC and it is possible. So if you have a uterine abnormality, please know that it doesn't mean you're just completely off the table. It still can be an option. Discuss it with your provider. Check out the links. I will include them in the show notes today more on those uterine abnormalities, and what it means, and what these studies are showing. There was another one that said that a septate uterus is clinically significant because it has been shown to be associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes including, like I said, that preterm labor and malpresentation. So it's a thing that can cause malpresentation and can cause preterm labor, and even miscarriage. But does that mean that you can't have a vaginal birth? Another thing to ask your providers if you have any of these things are, “Okay, if my baby is in a less than ideal position, say, breech or transverse, does my uterine abnormality or my specific case rule me out of having something like an ECV?” Varying rates of ECV success have been reported, and we're also not doing them enough. We are not seeing them being done enough, even though they have a lot of success. But the question is if you have a uterus that is a little different, do you qualify? Ask the questions. Be informed, and if you have any questions, let us know.And hey, if you have a uterine abnormality and you are listening, and you had a VBAC, I would love to hear from you because we have people who are searching for stories with uterine abnormalities. I know that our community would love to hear your story. You can message us at info@thevbaclink.com or if you are a provider who maybe knows a lot more and specializes a lot in uterine abnormalities, I would love to chat with you and discuss a podcast episode in the future. Thank you guys!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Alma's first birth was an emergency Cesarean after an induction at 40 weeks due to gestational diabetes. Due to COVID-19 policies, Alma's husband was not allowed into the OR. She did not expect the induction process to end the way that it did, and felt robbed of the positive birth experience she hoped to have. Alma made sure to educate herself on all of her options for her second birth. She was very proactive about her health and did not have gestational diabetes the second time. She went into labor earlier than she expected at 38 weeks. She woke up in the middle of the night to her water breaking, and intense contractions began. Within minutes, Alma knew she had to go to the hospital immediately. Alma felt pushy as they made the 45-minute drive. She was admitted to a room, and her beautiful baby was born just two pushes later!Evidence Based BirthⓇ: Induction for Gestational DiabetesThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC with Gestational DiabetesBirth Ball Amazon LinkNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello. It is almost the end of November. It is crazy to think that the year is coming to an end. But guess what, you guys? We still have so many amazing stories coming your way. Today's story is from our friend, Alma. I'm already messing it up. It looks like Alma, but you say it. Tell me how to say it correctly.Alma: Alma, but any way you say it is fine. Meagan: Perfect. I want to say it correctly though. She is sharing her stories today. Now, you are in New Jersey now, but you weren't in New Jersey when you had your VBAC. Is that correct? Alma: When I had the C-section, I was in New Jersey, so we just zigzagged a little bit. Meagan: So she's in New Jersey, but the VBAC wasn't in New Jersey. I know a lot of people when they are listening are like, “Where was this VBAC?” We will talk a little bit more about that when we get into the story, but let's give them a little teaser of what your episode is going to be. Your first C-section, I feel like was the steps. It was the steps or the cascade, and then a little bit of what you went through. Tell us a little bit of a teaser before we get into the episode. Alma: I had a lot of interventions in my first pregnancy and did end in an emergency C-section, then for my son, my second pregnancy, it was exactly the opposite. There wasn't time for any intervention. He just flew out. My whole labor was 2 hours from the first contraction to when he was born. I almost delivered in the car. He was too fast, but it was exactly the experience that I wanted to have. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh, so a precipitous labor after a lot of interventions, an induction, and all of these things. I'm so excited to get to this episode today, but we do have a Review of the Week. As usual, if you haven't done so yet, please leave us a review. We absolutely love them. Okay, this episode reviewer is Desiree Jacobsen. She actually just left this review this year in August of 2024. It says, “Thank you”. It says, “This podcast and parent's course is amazing. I'm not a VBAC mom, but I have been listening since 2020. I binge-listen toward the end of pregnancy to remember everything I need to remember in the birth process through my previous births. This time around, I felt more prepared than ever before having plans in place just in case. We were able to have a quick birth for my fifth baby. I love the education, passion, love, and support this podcast gives. I recommend it to everyone I know, and I have learned so much from it. I am so grateful for this podcast. Thank you”. Oh, I love that. I love that, love that, love that. That was actually sent to us via email. If you didn't know, you can email your reviews at info@thevbaclink.com. Your reviews on the podcast and on Google are what truly help other Women of Strength find this platform and find the courage and the information that they need to choose the birth that they desire. Okay, girl. Let's get into this story. So first birth, lots of interventions. Let's talk about it. One, what types of interventions, and two, why? What led up to needing those interventions or I don't know if it's “needing” or really medically needed? Tell us more. Alma: Well, my first pregnancy was very normal and healthy up until I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. That's where things started to change a little bit. I just failed the test by just a point, so my blood sugar was elevated, but it wasn't as bad as it could be. I wasn't even on insulin. I was just on diet control. Everything was going fine so I thought, but I would say a week before my due date, I was told that I needed to be induced because of the gestational diabetes. That was the first red flag of things going out of my control because I didn't expect to be induced. Although I had gestational diabetes for a while already, I wasn't told that this would probably be the case that I would be induced. I agreed to the induction of course. I understand why it's done, so I went along with it. I think my daughter just did not want to be born. On that day at least, we went in on my 40th week, and I was on Pitocin for hours, and it did nothing. I tried some exercises. I tried a bunch of things. Nothing worked.Eventually, the doctor suggested to manually break my water. That's where I wish I had asked to do other things first. I wish I had rejected that choice, but I went along with it. From that point, the labor went from 0 to 1000. I was in so much pain in a matter of minutes. Everything happened so fast, and I wasn't ready for that. I asked for an epidural really fast. I got the epidural, and that's also when things got worse because my blood pressure started to decrease. I didn't know that could happen actually. Later on, I scoured through every detail of what happened, and I tried to figure out exactly what went wrong. I realized that could happen with an epidural. When your blood pressure is affected, of course, the baby's blood pressure is affected so my daughter started to have some fetal decelerations. It was very concerning. They put me on my back to deliver to push her out. I wasn't even 10 centimeters yet. They were going to stretch me, but her blood pressure just declined in a way that was really concerning. I was rushed to the OR and the C-section was done. Everything happened so fast. I hesitate in using the word traumatic just because in the end, everybody was fine. I was fine. My daughter was fine. She was healthy, but it was very traumatic because nothing was in my control in that moment. I felt almost robbed of the experience that I expected to have. That was my first birth. Meagan: Well, and when things are rushed like that and you are left in a sense of– you said panic, but in a sense of urgent need to save something or save someone, it does. It sets all of your alarms off. Alma: That's exactly what happened. Meagan: Everyone has trauma differently. They view trauma differently. Someone may see one things as traumatic, and someone would be like, “How is that traumatic?” It's okay, I think, that you're using that word because that is how you are perceiving this. Your feelings and your alarms that were going off in your body as everything was being rushed and all of these things left that traumatic feeling. Alma: Yeah, definitely. In that moment, I felt like I couldn't breathe. At this time too, there were a lot of COVID restrictions, so my husband wasn't let into the OR. It was like, “What happpened to her?” He was more concerned than me probably. He thought both of us were going to die, my daughter and myself. It all just happened so quickly. Thankfully, we were okay in the end, but I had no idea I would be coming back with a C-section scar. That requires more recovery. As a new parent, we were already new to everything. It was a lot to deal with, I think. Meagan: Yeah, what you were saying, I'm sure your husband had a lot of trauma through that experience too. We know that COVID especially– I mean, birth in general comes with a lot of things especially the unexpected, but when you through COVID in with that, it's a lot of ick. It's a lot of icky feelings. It's a lot of ick. Alma: Yes. Meagan: So everything was good. Baby was good. You were good. Overall, it was a less-ideal situation, but where did that leave you after you had the baby and you were starting to recover? Where was your mind? Alma: I think I had to process a lot of what happened. I think I went into the first pregnancy very naive. It's important to be educated, and I really appreciate this podcast for that reason to encourage us to be educated. It's not that we are doctors. At least, many of us are not medical professionals, but we need to be aware of our bodies and just what the process looks like, and even some terminology. I was totally clueless on everything. I think that what I tried to do in between both pregnancies was just learn. What's going on in my body? What can I say no to in terms of interventions?You don't have to agree to everything. I never want to argue with a doctor of course, but if I really feel like that's not the best choice, I can always ask for another choice. I can consider other options. Meagan: Yes. Alma: I just didn't know I could do that the first time. I definitely tried to educate myself as much as possible, and I think that contributed a lot to how the second delivery went. Meagan: Yeah. I just wanted to thank you so much for pointing that out and seeing that because if I were to guess, we all didn't know that. We may have heard that you can always say no, but I don't if we realized how much we really could say no to or ask for another opinion. Maybe we knew it, but didn't really feel like we could. It can be hard. It can be hard to say no, but I love that you are like, “I want a different option. I'm going to say no to this right now. Give me another option.” It's always okay. Alma: Definitely, definitely. Wanting to wait if the time allows, “Can we try this later?” There's a conversation that needs to happen. It doesn't have to be one thing that is suggested. Meagan: This way or no. Alma: For sure. Meagan: Where did your education start stemming from? Where did you start when you were like, “Okay, I want to do something different next time”? Alma: The podcast. The VBAC Link. I listened to a bunch of podcasts. There is All Things Pregnancy with Dr. Nicole Renkins, and of course, The VBAC Link Podcast. Meagan: We've had her. We love her. Alma: That's just what I did all the time before I went to bed. I'd listen to an episode driving. I'd listen to an episode. It was very helpful. I felt like I could digest information better that way as opposed to reading, so that was a very helpful tool. I also tried to find professionals around me who could speak to my specific situations. I had a doula, and of course, I had my providers as well. They were all so helpful with helping me navigate some of the things that might have gone wrong the first time, and how I could prevent them going forward. Meagan: When they talked about some of the things that maybe went wrong the first time– I don't want to say wrong. They went south. Alma: Yes. Meagan: I don't know why people say that. I love south. I love the south. What were the kinds of things that stood out to them?Alma: Well, I think the first thing was the induction in the first place. I completely understand the risk with gestational diabetes, but I think there could have been more conversations with that in my specific case. Seeing as I did not have diabetes that was really out of control, it was very well controlled with my diet, and there could have been room to say, “Maybe we can go a couple days past my due date.” I wouldn't recommend that for everyone. I think it depends on your case, but I could have tried to have that dialogue, and maybe we didn't need to have an induction. I also could have considered different methods of induction, and I think that was the first thing because I felt like that was the first domino piece. If I didn't have the induction, it might not have led to a C-section in the first place. Another point was also the breaking of the water. Those things, I could have just said, “Let's wait.” I was already there for the induction, so I could have just asked for a little more time. But the big point for me too was the epidural. That was, I think, the immediate reason for the fetal distress. Meagan: The response. Alma: The response, yeah. Understanding how I could avoid that. I was told that now with the second epidural, I may not have the same reactions because I've had it before. Also, if you get flushed with some IV fluids– Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say if you hydrate and not even just intravenously, but literally drinking water before. If you know that you're going to want to get an epidural, or it's heading that direction, start hydrating. The more you can hydrate, the better. Alma: So I learned those things, then also, I tried to prepare myself for not even having an epidural, although that wasn't my goal, because I experienced the pains before. Even though I had the C-section, I went through some labor pains. I was accepting the fact that I might just need the epidural, but I considered that as well. How can I overcome this pain without any kind of medication? Those were things I was trying to consider about how we could do it differently so it doesn't result in the same thing. Meagan: Okay, I love those tips. So now, you're pregnant, and we have baby number two. Tell us this journey. Alma: Yes. I guess from the time of conception, it was about 18 months apart from the C-section. My pregnancy went perfectly fine. There were no issues. The difference being I had a toddler, so I was more active, of course. I was on my feet. I took at least 10,000 steps a day. I didn't sit much just because of my daughter. I think that definitely helped in preparing my body. I was really focused on how I can work on my pelvic floor and was just preparing for what it would take to push a baby out. I also did a lot of exercises that I found online. I never did a class or anything, but these were just Instagram videos where you could see the top three videos for strengthening your pelvic floor and things like that that were just free and available. I had an exercise ball that was a lifesaver. I highly recommend that exercise ball for anybody who is pregnant, especially in the third trimester. You can sit on it. You can lean on it. You can squeeze it between your knees. All of those things provide relief, but they also strengthen your muscles down there. I did the Miles Circuit. All of those things were super helpful, and I did it daily to prepare my body. I guess going into the actual labor, I'll start by saying that first of all, I didn't have very supportive providers. I learned from this podcast that that's very important. I do 100% agree that it's half the battle if you have someone who is on your side and wants to help you make intelligent decisions. I would say my providers were not completely unsupportive, but there were a lot of policies from the hospital side that I think restricted them from encouraging a VBAC. There were a lot of if's, and's, and but's. There were so many stipulations for when or if I could have a VBAC. Meagan: Can I ask which ones stood out where you were like, “These for sure are alarms”?Alma: The biggest one was that I would have to deliver before 40 weeks. I felt statistically that doesn't happen. People usually birth after their due dates, so I felt like I was already set up for, this is not going to happen probably. I felt really discouraged by that. Also, I guess the due date was a big thing, but also if I were to have gestational diabetes again, then the whole conversation on the doctor's side was just completely mute. I would just need to go for the induction if I had gestational diabetes. Statistically, you do have it with each subsequent pregnancy according to what I have known. I was also expecting, okay. I'm most likely going to have gestational diabetes. I'm most likely not going to give birth before 40 weeks. It seemed like I was most likely going to have to agree to a C-section. Those things were not encouraging, but I did feel like the doctors were trying to help me find some safe loopholes. One of them being that they had to– I don't know if this is law, but they had to schedule me for the C-section even though I didn't want one. But they explained to me that I could go in and say to them that I didn't want a C-section. I could ask for more time. I could ask to be induced, and hopefully, the induction wouldn't lead to a C-section although it could. I guess they were trying to explain to me that there are some routes you could take, but given the fact that you had a previous C-section, we do have to just assume that you're going to have another one. I felt really alone on that journey of trying to do something that I felt like I could do, especially given that the reason for the first C-section was an emergency. I was dilated. It wasn't a failure to progress. I felt like my body was perfectly primed to do it, but because of time, we had to go for the C-section. I also had to have some conversations with myself accepting that if I do need to have another C-section, it's not the end of the world. I guess what frustrated me about the first time was that I felt like I didn't need to have it. C-sections save lives. They're great tools when they're needed, but I felt like I didn't. Aside from the distress and all of that, I felt like I didn't need it, so I wanted to really try for this vaginal birth. I was just in between trying to accept what might happen, but still trying to hold on to what I believed I could do. So, I guess fast forward to my 37th week, I had an appointment and I had to sign off that I would come in for a C-section, but my plan was to go in that day. This was on the 39th week. I would have the C-section. I could go in and say that I didn't want to have it. On the night of my 38th week, my husband just finished putting together the crib, and it was midnight. He put together the crib. We went to sleep, and at around 2:45, I wake up because I thought I peed on myself. Now, I think I realize that it was my water leaking. I got up, and at that point, I had maybe cramping, but it wasn't really painful. To make a long story short, 10 minutes later, I was having full-on contractions. They were super painful. I got out my phone to time it, and within two taps, the app was telling me to go to the hospital now. It was two taps. Everything was happening so fast. Meagan: They were coming so close. Alma: Yes. They were so close. I don't remember how to count them. All I did was tap, and it was telling me to go. This was at 38 weeks, so I honestly didn't have anything ready. I didn't have my bags ready or nothing. Within a matter of minutes, I was just on the floor trying to remember the HypnoBirthing and everything, but it was all slipping because it happened so fast.We get in the car, and I'm still in a whole lot of pain. At a certain point though, I got a grip. I was doing this Christian HypnoBirthing which really helped me. I finally grasped myself and was able to calm down, but the pain accelerated very, very fast. At a certain point, though, I started to feel a lot of pressure. I was still driving, by the way. We had about a 45-minute journey to the hospital. I started to feel a pressure to push. I just couldn't resist it, so I pushed. I hammered down really hard. It sounded like a fire hydrant was cracked open. My water busted open in the car. I'm sitting behind the driver's seat on my knees, and my water just gushed open. At that point, I really felt like he was coming out. I couldn't hold back the desire to push because it also relieved the pain a little bit. It was more like a pressure as opposed to a pain. I just gave into that feeling, but I did feel like he was between my knees and was about to come out. My husband made a few wrong turns, but eventually, we got to the hospital. I couldn't even sit, actually. They put me in a wheelchair to go to the place where you would give birth. I couldn't sit down. He was just about to come out, and when I got there, I was already beyond 10 centimeters at that point. Later, the doctor told me when she came down to see me that she could already see the hair of my son's head. He was already so close. Remember, the talk about the epidural? I wanted the epidural. I was asking the security guard, the person at the front desk– everybody I saw, I was asking for the epidural. I noticed that they didn't respond to me on that. I overheard them telling my husband that it was way too late for the epidural. My son was already halfway out, and they couldn't give me the epidural. Once the doctor came, she told me to give a good push. I pushed one time. His head came out. The second time I pushed, he flew out. I had five nurses dive in to grab him. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Alma: He was born, and that was the whole thing. It was super duper fast, unmedicated, and yeah. The most touching part to me was that he came out, and they put him on my chest. That was all I wanted. When my daughter was born in the C-section, I had to beg them to let me see her. I didn't see her until minutes later. I didn't hold her until the next day, but this time, they put her right on my chest, and it was just so redemptive. It was everything that I really wanted to experience. Meagan: Absolutely. It was probably a lot all at the same time, very shocking, but then to have that baby be placed on your chest, oh, what an amazing moment for you. Alma: Yes, yes. It was. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Super fast. I was just going to say that was super fast. Alma: It was. It was so fast. I think this is a thing with my kids. For my daughter, too, when they broke my water, everything went very fast. I don't know. They are just really urgent, but my son was definitely in a rush. He came very, very fast. Meagan: Did your doula even make it?Alma: No, she didn't. She did not. She couldn't. It just happened too fast. She didn't make it on time, but she was happy to hear everything went fine. Meagan: Yes, of course. Of course. Oh my goodness. So after you had the baby, and you had him on your chest and everything, did all of the rest of everything go okay and smoothly?Alma: Yeah. I was bleeding a lot, and that was a concern, but I thankfully recovered fine from that. I had a second-degree tear which I hear is not terrible for the first time doing that. So yeah. I recovered pretty quickly afterward. In my experience, it really didn't compare at all to the C-section recovery. I was in a lot of pain after my C-section, but this time, it was just maybe a week or two of taking some pain medication for the stitches and stuff, but overall, I was fine. Yeah. I was able to go home the next day actually, so that was also very good. Meagan: The next day? That is awesome. Alma: Yeah. Meagan: How did your medical team feel about it? Did they say anything? Did they have any worries?Alma: Everyone was just so shocked at how quickly everything took place. I think that was the main theme was just the speed, and also how determined my son was. With just two pushes, he just came out really fast. The concern of obviously dropping him because they all dove in to get him. I think that was the talk. This happened in the morning, so the whole rest of the day, they were just chatting about how quickly everything happened. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I bet. I think sometimes those births are kind of a lot for medical staff where you come in and your baby is crowning, but I feel like those births are the type that they really do talk about for a really long time, and they were like, “Look at this.” A lot of the times, here in Utah, anyway, they call them stop and drops where you show up at 10 centimeters. You just stopped in and dropped your baby. I feel like in a lot of ways, it shows people that labor can happen at home, and then you come and it can so beautifully happen without getting an IV, getting a heart trace, setting up fluids, doing this, having a cervical exam. There is just so much that doesn't need to happen, and I love when medical staff can see that birth can just happen like that. It really, really can if we just leave it be. Alma: Yeah. That's exactly another point of how I felt before because I had gestational diabetes, and because I had a previous C-section, they did make it sound like I needed to be hooked up to every machine, and I could never give birth at home. I just felt almost like a robot connected to everything. That's how it had to be, but yeah. This time, I wasn't even in a hospital gown. It was just so organic how it happened. That was exactly what I wanted to experience, but I think it was a good experience for the nurses as well to see that it was okay. I was fine without the IV and the other stuff. Meagan: Yeah, I love that. You had listed some tips. One of them was doing pelvic floor exercises on the ball which we kind of talked about. I love the ball so much. If you guys are interested in a ball, I'm going to link a ball in the show notes because they are actually really inexpensive and can do a lot of really good things. What other tips do you have for someone preparing for a VBAC?Alma: The number one tip which I've heard constantly here is about being educated and understanding what your options are. Unfortunately, I think that most providers are not going to make it easy to have a VBAC just because of the risks that are associated with it. Of course, they may have your well-being in mind, but there are also a lot of hospital policies and protocols that they need to follow. They may not make it easy, but if you understand what your options are and what the research says, it opens the door for dialogue. When you open that conversation, I think you will find that doctors will probably give you more options than what they may have initially suggested. I always spent time talking with the doctors about, “So what if this happens? How about this? How about that?” I feel like that did wiggle in some room for me to not do things just following the protocol. Meagan: Yeah. Alma: That's really important. Meagan: It's so interesting how if you show up showing that you're educated, there's this different sense of– I don't want to say respect, but I do want to say respect because I feel like these providers are like, “Oh. They get it. They understand. I can't just say whatever. This needs to be an educated discussion.” It should always be like that, but I also think a lot of the times, providers don't have time to really sit down and talk about the evidence, or their evidence is flawed because of personal experience. When you come in and you're like, “Hey, what about this?” and they're like, “Oh, she knows stuff,” it just really gives you some wiggle room. It gives the providers respect just a little bit more because they realize how important this is that we are educating ourselves. We are learning. We know the options, and we're not just going to be like, “Okay, cool.” I love that tip. That, and finding the supportive provider. In the beginning, you had said that the hospital policies may have trumped these providers' stance. I think not only just finding your supportive provider, but really understanding the hospital policy. You can call, and you can talk to the head nurse. You can talk to the board and the directors of the hospital. You can say, “Hey, I need to know the hospital policies surrounding VBAC.” Alma: Yeah. You know, I believe it was on this podcast where someone mentioned that the best way to know how a provider feels about a VBAC is just to ask them very straight, “What do you think about VBACs?” Their expression will say it all. You don't have to have a preamble about it. Just ask directly, and I think that helps. I definitely did that. It wasn't favorable in my case, but I definitely think looking into the hospital C-section rates is really important too. How often do they have C-sections? How often do they have VBACs? If they have that information available, that's also really helpful. In my case, I found out too late that it wasn't the highest, but it was pretty high. Also, from this podcast, I learned that it's never too late to switch providers if you want to. I didn't take that route. I stuck with who I was with, but I guess I was just trying to be adamant with what I wanted to do as much as possible. Meagan: Absolutely. Do you have any tips on how to possibly find the hospital's Cesarean rate? It used to be out there on cesareanrates.org. It used to be out there, and you could look up your hospital. You could look up your state. You could look up your provider, even. That's gone down a little bit and changed a little bit, but do you have any advice if someone is wanting to know their hospital's Cesarean rate? Alma: In my case, I just searched the hospital name and the Cesarean rate. This was a pretty big hospital. This was in Florida. It was a hospital with a very big network, so that information was readily available on their website. You do need to dig around, but it was on their website. If you are dealing with a big hospital with many departments and so on, they may have that information on their website easily with a Google search. You could also talk to people who work at the hospital as well. If it's not online, I think that information is quantified normally. They might not quantify how many VBACs they have, but definitely the C-section rate is information that they are following and tracking. Meagan: Yeah. I feel like it's always fair to ask your provider, “What's your Cesarean rate?” A lot of the time, they will say, “I don't know.” They know. They know. That's something that they need to be able to give you. It's okay to ask that. “What percentage of your deliveries end in a Cesarean?” Alma: Yeah. Being direct is really the easiest way to know clearly where they stand. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to really quickly talk just slightly about gestational diabetes. There's a lot when it comes to gestational diabetes. We know, just like you had experienced, that most providers suggest an induction. They just do. According to the American Pregnancy Association, gestational diabetes occurs in 2-5% of pregnancies which is decent. For those who are at a higher risk in their pregnancy, it may be even higher up to 9%, but a lot of them are controlled like yours were through diet or even through insulin and things like exercise. A lot of people are controlling them. Evidence Based BirthⓇ, which I want to make sure that this is linked in our show notes and our blog so if you want to go read more about gestational diabetes or you had gestational diabetes with your last pregnancy and you may have it again, definitely go check it out. They talked about how there is actually very little data in how often people are actually induced because of the diagnosis of gestational diabetes. But in one of the retrospective studies, they found that out of 330,000 births from 2001-2007, they saw– okay, let's see. It says, “The people in the study came from six health insurance plans, many different hospitals and regions, and represented a large and diverse population. Health insurance plans datas were linked to birth certificate data in order to improve accuracy compared to using birth certificates alone.” Going down a little bit further, they said, “Overall, 30% of labors were induced. When they looked at the reasons for induction, 59% of labors were induced for an accepted medical reason and 41% were considered to be elective.” Those are pretty big numbers to me. Alma: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, those are big. Meagan: Yeah, those are really big numbers. It goes on. It talks about, does gestational diabetes always mean induction? What's the evidence for randomized controlled trials? They go way into it because Rebecca Dekker is amazing, and their team is incredible. We will also have our blog linked because I believe this is a really important topic to know more about especially if you've had it so you can make the right decision. And how you said, you were like, “I was in a controlled state. Everything was controlled through my diet, and I could have likely gone further,” but you didn't. You weren't really encouraged to go further. It was like, “Let's induce.” Alma: Yeah, it literally was just like that. There was no conversation about it. Meagan: Yeah. No conversation about it. I think that's where we're going wrong a lot in the medical system. A lot of the time, there is no conversation. Even though we have the power to start that conversation, sometimes it's really difficult when we're being told, “Your provider thinks this. Your baby is in danger. You're in danger if you don't do these things.” It's like, “Okay. Okay. I'll do those things,” but we need to have those conversations. I think that again, having the education and knowing the evidence behind it, and the risks and the benefits and all of those things, it will help you have that conversation if and when the time is needed. So, thank you so much for chatting with us today and sharing your stories and giving us advice, and leaning into more conversations for gestational diabetes. I think it's something that is happening. A lot of people are getting it. There are things we can do even before pregnancy like really increasing our protein and things. But sometimes, it just happens. It just happens. Alma: I will say just to be clear, the second pregnancy, I did not have gestational diabetes. Meagan: Okay. Alma: That was also something. That was my biggest concern. The two points I mentioned were that the conditions were that I couldn't have gestational diabetes, and I needed to deliver before 40 weeks. But this goes along with education. I did my best to improve my diet even pre-pregnancy to avoid that diagnosis. It was actually a miracle that my blood test came back really well. I almost thought this was the wrong test because it wasn't elevated at all. I was really, really thankful that through some dietary changes and lifestyle changes, I didn't have gestational diabetes at all. Then the second point about giving birth before 40 weeks, it was a spontaneous labor at 38 weeks which also was so supernatural. I really thank God. Everything happened really perfectly. Yeah. That was really a blessing.Meagan: Yes. Oh, thank you so much for everything. You are amazing.Alma: Oh, thank you. Meagan: We just love you.Alma: Thank you so much. I had a great time sharing the story, and I hope it encourages other women as well. Meagan: It will, for sure. Alma: Great. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Send me a love note here to let me know what you thought about your most recently listened-to episode!In this empowering episode of The Labor Room, I sit down with Dr. Naomi Whittaker, an OBGYN and mom of five (soon to be six), to discuss her inspiring journey of reclaiming her birth experiences after a traumatic first delivery. Dr. Whittaker shares how her first birth, a primary cesarean due to a misdiagnosis of Cephalopelvic Disproportion (CPD), shaped her determination to achieve four successful VBACs.We dive into her transformative birth stories, exploring the emotional and physical aspects of healing from trauma and navigating VBACs. Dr. Whittaker also opens up about how her personal experiences influenced her decision to become an OBGYN and how she's now making a difference for moms navigating their own pregnancy journeys.In this episode, you'll hear:Dr. Whittaker's traumatic first birth story and what she learned from her misdiagnosis of CPD.How she successfully achieved four VBACs, even after a challenging start.The connection between her personal birth experiences and her professional career as an OBGYN.Practical, actionable advice for moms on advocating for themselves and their ideal birth experience.Whether you're preparing for a VBAC, healing from a past birth trauma, or just looking for inspiration to feel empowered as a birthing mom, this episode is packed with heartfelt insights and expert advice.Resources Mentioned:The Birth Plan Accelerator CourseThe FREE BIrth Plan BlueprintThe Reel that connected Heather & Naomi The Reel Heather mentioned about a resident who pushed her over the edgeThe Reel Naomi mentioned about C-Section preferences The Reel Naomi mentioned about sewing up a chicken breastConnect with Heather:Visit my website: https://alifeinlabor.comFollow me on Instagram: @alifeinlaborConnect With Naomi: IG: @napro_fertility_surgeonDr. Naomi Whittaker's Website The Birth Plan Accelerator is your ultimate step-by-step guide to creating a birth plan that works for you. This course empowers you to confidently communicate your preferences, navigate unexpected situations, and ensure your birth experience feels supported and informed. Whether you're planning a hospital delivery, home birth, or anything in between, you'll gain the tools to make your voice heard, reduce fear, and feel prepared for the birth you've envisioned. Take charge of your birth journey with clarity and confidence—because every mom deserves to feel in control on the big day.Subscribe and leave a review to let us know how this episode inspired or helped you! Together, we're elevating births and empowering moms every step of the way.Support the show

“Hospital Policy means the principles, rules, and guidelines adopted by the Hospital, which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.”Julie and Meagan break down hospital policies today, especially common ones you'll hear when it comes to VBAC. They chat all about VBAC agreement forms and policies surrounding continuous fetal monitoring, induction, and epidurals. Women of Strength, hospital policies are not law. They vary drastically from hospital to hospital. Some are evidence-based. Some are convenience-based. Do your research now to make sure you are not surprised by policies you are not comfortable with during labor!Defining Hospital PolicyBirth Rights ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, everybody. We are going to be talking about policies today. What do they mean? Why are they created? And when do we have the right to say no or do we have the right to say no?And I have Julie discussing this with me today. Hey. Julie: You know I'm a policy fighter. Meagan: Yes, we do. We do. The longer I have gone– in the beginning, I was not a policy fighter. I really wasn't. I was a go-with-the-flow, sure, okay, let's do it, you know best. That's really how I was. Julie: A lot of people are. Meagan: That's true. I think a lot of the time, it's because we don't know what our options are. We just don't know, so I'm really excited to get into this with you today. I always love it because we kind of get into this spicy mood sometimes when we have topics like this that we are very passionate about. We are going to be talking about policies today. I do have a Review of the Week, and this is actually a very recent review which is so fun. We just posted on our social media for Google reviews. We were specifically looking for Google reviews and podcast reviews. These are so, so important for us but also for other people to find this platform. We want people to hear these stories. We want people to feel inspired and get educated and know their rights. Your reviews truly do matter, so if you have not yet, please, please, please do so. You can leave a review on your podcast platform, or you can go over to Google and just type in “The VBAC Link”, and then you can type in a review there. This reviewer is by Savannah, and she says, “I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast around 16 weeks pregnant and continued throughout y pregnancy. It was so good and encouraging for me as a mama who was preparing for my VBAC. It helped me gain confidence, helped me know what to look for, and what to watch out for in my providers. Hearing others' stories was so encouraging and helped me gain so much knowledge. I had my hospital VBAC unmedicated with my 8-pound, 15-ounce baby.” You guys, 8-pound, 15-ounce baby is a perfect-sized baby let me just say. “And I know that the knowledge I gained from this podcast played a huge role in being able to advocate for myself to get my birth outcome.” Huge congrats, Savannah, on your beautiful VBAC for your perfect-sized baby. I say that because you guys, let's get rid of the “big baby” term. Let's just title these babies as perfect-sized because an 8-pound, 15-ounce baby for some providers may be categorized as larger or maybe even macrosomic. it's really important to know that your baby is the perfect size and your pelvis is amazing. You can do it just like our reviewer, Savannah. Julie: Your pelvis is amazing. Meagan: Seriously. All right, you cutie. Look at you. Did you just get a haircut, by the way?Julie: I did, yesterday. It's a little short. We did some color. It's a little smidgey shorter, but then I think I wanted it to still go in a low ponytail for births. That was my goal. Meagan: I'm totally digging it. Julie: Thank you.Meagan: I should be having fresh hair, but my cute hair lady bailed on me the morning of my hair appointment. Julie: Oh no! Meagan: Sometimes we have matching nails, but we would have had matching nails. We don't have them today. You guys, we just miss each other. I miss you. Julie: Yeah. We need to go to lunch again. Meagan: We do. Yes. We love shopping, you guys. Let's talk about hospital policies. Julie: Let's do it. Meagan: We know that so many people go into– not even just birth, but really a lot of things in the medical world. They just go to a doctor's office visit or go to a small procedure, or whatever it may be, and these places have policies. I want to talk about what it means. What does a hospital policy mean? What is the definition? The definition, according to lawinsider.com, says, “Hospital policy means the principals, rules, and guidelines adopted by a hospital which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.” Julie: Oh, I love that addition. Amended, changed, or superseded. Meagan: Yep. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. It can. Julie: And it does. Meagan: And it does. It does. Julie: It does. Meagan: You guys, let's just start off right now with the fact of a hospital policy– or a policy, okay? A policy in general is not law. It is not law. If you decide to decline a hospital policy– Julie: It is well within your rights. Meagan: Well within your rights. You could get some kickback. You could probably expect it. Julie: You probably will. Meagan: But, that's okay. That's okay. My biggest advice is if you are receiving or being told that this is a hospital policy, and you disagree with the policy, or maybe you agree with the policy for someone else, but for you, it's not working, and you say no, and they say, “Well, –”Julie: “It's hospital policy.” Meagan: “This policy is policy, and if you choose to break it, then you can sign an AMA.” Julie: You are so funny. “This policy is policy.” It's like that though. Meagan: That's literally what they say. Julie: They say, “It's hospital policy.” And you say, “Well, I don't agree with that policy.” “Well, it's hospital policy.”Meagan: “Well, it's policy.” Okay. Well, I'm telling you I don't like your stupid policy. Julie: I don't like your stupid policy. We are spicy, huh? Meagan: I mean it, though. I think I maybe shared this a little bit, but I had a client who had a home birth planned. She decided to go to the hospital because she had preeclampsia, and this nurse was not giving her her baby. She kept saying, “It's policy. It's policy. It's policy.” I was like, “This mom's word trumps your policy.” As a doula, I was getting into some rocky, choppy waters I was feeling. I could just feel the tension building. It did not feel comfortable at all. I looked at my client. Julie: You're just like, “Give her her doggone baby.” Meagan: They could kick me out. They could. I need you to know that they really could kick me out. She was like, “That's okay. I want my baby.” So I pushed. I pushed. I pushed and I pushed. We did get her her baby, but we had to fight. We really, really, really had to fight, and it sucks. It really, really sucks. So there is a website called pregnancyjusticeus.org. We're going to have this. I have not actually gone through all of it. It is– how many pages is this, Julie? It is a lot of pages. It is 65 pages, you guys. It's 65 pages of birthright information, going through a lot. Julie: It will be linked in the show notes. Meagan: Yes, it sure will. If you want to go through this, I highly encourage it. It is from Birth Rights and Birth Rights Bar Association, the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. Like I said, it's 65 pages, but what they said in here I just think is so powerful. It says, “There is no point in pregnancy in which people lose their civil and human rights, and yet all over the world, people often experience mistreatment and violations of their rights during pregnancy and birth and postpartum.” We see these things. Julie: You need to make that a social media post. People need to know this. Meagan: Yes. Down here even further, it says, “We also know that doulas and other people providing support to pregnant and birthing people often bear witness to rights violation of clients of loved ones. In a recent survey, 65% of doulas and nurses indicated that they had witnessed providers occasionally or “often” engage in procedures explicitly against their patients' wishes.” This is a serious issue. Julie: It is a serious issue. I feel like it's really frustrating, especially as a birth photographer where my lines as a doula are very separate, but I always doula a little bit at every birth I go to. It's not hands-on stuff always, but it's hard when you see people getting taken advantage of and they don't know they are being taken advantage of and they don't know that they have options or choices and they don't know that they can decline or request changes, and that's probably the hardest part is that people just don't know. I have a little tangent, but I'm in this Facebook support group for this medication that I'm on. It really amazes me continuously about how little people know about a medication that they are taking, a pretty serious medication that they are taking, and how little their doctors inform them of what the medication is and what some of the side effects and issues are, and what they can reasonably expect from it because some people have completely unreasonable expectations because they haven't dug into it at all. The other day, somebody said something like, “I've been really, really tired and fatigued since I started this medication, but I called my doctor and she said that fatigue is not a common side effect with this medication,” and I'm like, “What?” It's literally listed on the manufacturer's website that it's a side effect. It's listed on the insert for the medication. It's talked about all the time in this Facebook group, and it can be caused by a number of things that this medication affects. The fact that either her doctor didn't know or just told her– anyway, it leads me. I promise there's a point to this. It leads me to the fact that your doctor does not know everything about everything, especially a family doctor. This medication is prescribed by family doctors sometimes and endocrinologists. It is impossible for them to know everything about everything. Something like obstetrics and gynecology is more specialized so it is more focused. It is a more centralized area of study, but still, your doctor doesn't know everything about everything. It is not uncommon for them to not keep up in advancements in medications and technology and practices as they evolve. It's very, very common for the medical community to be 10-15 years behind the current research and evidence. It just is. Doctors and nurses and all of these things who have to have to have a certain number of contact numbers per year to keep up with training and education, but it is impossible for them to keep up with everything. It is okay for you to have different opinions than your provider. It's okay for you to want different things than is hospital policy, and it is perfectly reasonable for you to make those requests and for those requests to be honored. It is also okay for you to know more about a particular thing than your provider might. Meagan: Yep. Julie: Period, exclamation point, shazam. Meagan: Well, we've talked about this with other providers. We've heard other stories where people come in. They have stats that their providers haven't even seen. They just get stuck in their own way and their policies, and there are other things going on outside, so they just point-blank say, “No, this is how it is,” and you might have more information. That doesn't mean you are more educated or qualified or whatever to be a doctor. Julie: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: It doesn't mean, “Oh, I might as well be a doctor because I know this information and you don't,” but it means that you may have found information that your provider is not aware of. It is okay for you to bring that to their attention. In fact, do it. Congratulations for them to find out the information that they might not have known yet, so they can do better for the next patient. Julie: I want to say that there is an attitude with some medical care providers of, “Don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree.” Meagan: Yes. Julie: Come on. I really have a big problem when people get like that because first of all, and I've said this before, and I will continue to say it again, we have at our fingertips access to the largest amount of information ever available in humankind ever at our desktops. We can sit down, and you can go and find information and studies related to anything ever. Yes, don't go looking at Joe Blow down the street's opinion about childbirth or whatever. Yes, that might be a credible source. It might not be, but you can literally find these same studies, the same research, and the same information that these providers have access to in their path to their medical degree. Is it extensive? No. Are you going to have the hands-on experience that they have doing these procedures and C-sections and things like that? No, you're not, but you still have access to the same information that they have access to. I have a big problem when providers have this arrogant attitude that they know more. Yes, they do know more generally. They might not know more when it comes down to specific things that have been updated since they have gotten out of school. Meagan: Yeah. I feel like in a lot of ways, we hear these policies and these things come up, and you're like, “But where?” Then they can't show you the policy or stat. Julie: Yeah, then they'll be like, “You're 20x more likely to rupture.” You're like, “Can you send me the research?” They're like, “It's the way we've always done it.” Meagan: I did a one-on-one consult, and a provider told someone that they had this astronomical amount of percentage of rupturing, and I was like, “Wait, what?” Julie: Seriously. Meagan: I was like, “Please challenge your provider and ask them for that.” She did, and they were unable to give her that. We can just hear things, and if we just take them, it can be scary, and it can impact decisions when maybe that's not true. I also want to talk about policy for providers. Their policy should be that everyone should have informed consent. They have policies, too, that not only you have to follow or that they have to follow. It's a whole thing. There are many policies. Your provider really has to explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives for any medical procedure, intervention, or anything coming your way, but we see it not happening most of the time. We just see people doing stuff because it's within their normal routine but it's breaking policy which is so frustrating to me. So you can break policy? I want intermittent monitoring. I don't want consistent monitoring. I'm breaking a policy? Julie: So what?Meagan: So what? Julie: So what? Sorry. Meagan: Let's talk a little bit more about VBAC and policies surrounding VBAC. We know that policies are just there. They've been created. During COVID, holy Hannah. We saw these policies change weekly, you guys. Julie: Daily. Meagan: Yeah, seriously. They went in and they were like, “This is our new policy. This is our new policy. This is our new policy,” and I was like, “What?” Julie: It was freaking whiplash.Meagan: Yes, it was horrible. It was horrible. But they can change a policy just like that. You can say no to a policy just like that. So, okay. Sorry. I digress. Let's go back. Let's talk about what policies often surround VBAC. I know a lot of the time, in hospitals all over, it's a policy that midwives cannot treat VBAC. Or you can't be induced because it's a policy. You can't induce VBAC. We talked about this before we started recording, and I said it just now. It has to be consistent monitoring. Julie: Yeah. Well, can I just do a little bit of a timeout and a rewind for half a second? Hospitals are businesses, okay? I just want to explain this to everybody. Hospitals are businesses. I think we know that. You don't have to have that explained. Businesses, in order for them to run efficiently and smoothly, need to have policies, guidelines, best practices, standards of care, procedures, and things like that. It is a business. It is okay for them to set parameters for which they want their providers and nurses and everybody who is at the hospital to operate under, right? It's okay for them to have those things. It's okay for them to set those because if you didn't have those, the business would fall apart. Everybody would be doing whatever the heck they want. There would be a lot of disorder, right? Meagan: Yes. Julie: So policies and procedures and these best practices and things like that are created in order to keep things aligned and have a nice model of care so that they can be more cost-efficient so that the patients know what to expect so that the providers have a routine and things like that. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: There are reasons for these things. However, when we like to push back, when we are bothered, and the thing that really is frustrating about these policies is when they are put in place so rigidly that there's no flexibility and that it takes away a patient's autonomy, and that it removes individualized care from the birth experience. So this is why we want to talk about this. This is why we don't think all policies are dumb. No, we don't. We see the reason. We understand why they are in place. However, we want you to know that it is well within your rights as a human to decline and request changes for these policies, and to desire something different, and to have that desire respected. It's hard when some providers and nurses get so stuck in the fact that, “This is policy,” that they take away your autonomy and your right to choose. That's what we're pushing back against, and that's what we want you to know. These policies are not law. You have the right to want something different and to request something different, and to have that right respected. Okay.Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I do think it can be really hard because they have these things to keep order and to keep things tidy.Julie: And with the intention to keep you safe. Meagan: Yes.Julie: But sometimes intentions don't always translate well. But anyway. Meagan: Yeah. But really quickly before we get into what policies surrounding VBAC are, when we start questioning policy, there are things that can come into play where there are threats, there is coercion, there is gaslighting that starts happening because they are really panicked that you are questioning their policy. They feel very uncertain that you are questioning that. Julie: They may even feel unsafe, or they might never have had the policy challenged before so they don't know what to do about it. Right?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Just know that if people are coming at you with, “Well, if you don't do this, then this,” or whatever it may be, then it can get intense, but you can still say no. You can also ask for a copy of that policy. Again, even though that policy isn't law, you can still ask for it. Julie: Ideally, you can do this before labor begins because it's really hard to fight and bump up against these policies during labor. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: It's going to be a lot harder. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's go in. I talked a little bit about fetal monitoring. Julie: Induction. Meagan: Not being seen by certain people. No induction. Or the opposite. Julie: You have to be induced. Meagan: You have to be induced. Julie: By such and such a date. Meagan: Yes. It's just so funny because it varies all over. Julie: It does vary all over. Meagan: Let's talk about it. Okay, so fetal monitoring. Julie: Don't forget epidural placement too. Meagan: Yes. Epidurals. Julie: We can talk about that. That's my favorite one to argue against. Anyways. Okay.Meagan: There are so many. Okay, let's talk about fetal monitoring. What is the policy typically behind continuous fetal monitoring?Julie: Yeah, so most hospitals– in fact, I've never met a hospital where this hasn't been the hospital policy– is that continuous fetal monitoring is required for everybody, but especially for VBAC. They double down for VBAC because one of the first signs of uterine rupture, especially for someone who has an epidural, is irregular fetal heart tones. That can be one of the first signs of uterine rupture. Most hospitals are very, very adamant about having continuous fetal monitoring, especially for people who are undergoing a TOLAC which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. It's not a bad word. It's just how it's defined in the medical community before you have your VBAC.The reason they do that, like I just said— but honestly, if you don't have an epidural and if you aren't under any type of pain medication, the first sign of uterine rupture for you is going to be really intense pain. That's going to be your first sign. Especially if you are going unmedicated, I think it's perfectly reasonable to request intermittent monitoring. Do you want me to go into why they introduced fetal monitoring in the first place?Okay, in the early 1970s, we saw lots of rapid advancements in the medical field and technology related to the medical field. Things like continuous fetal monitoring got introduced. Antibiotics became more readily accessible. The procedures themselves, especially the C-section procedure, became perfected and easier to do with fewer complications and fever rates of infections. All sorts of things started happening at a really rapid pace in the early 1970s. One of the things that got introduced was continuous fetal monitoring. The intention behind the continuous fetal monitoring when it got introduced was to decrease the rates of cerebral palsy in infants. Cerebral palsy usually happens when during either pregnancy or labor, oxygen is deprived to the brain of the baby. It can cause a stroke and damage part of the white matter in the brain. The idea behind it was if you could catch the reduced flow of oxygen to the baby by monitoring its heart rate, you could intervene and do a C-section in time to get the baby out before cerebral palsy happens, essentially. The interesting thing about that is that after continuous fetal monitoring was introduced, there was no change in the rate of cerebral palsy. It stayed the same. It still is very similar. But what it did do is that it was one component that increased the rates of C-sections and other interventions. They are more likely to take a baby out due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones, and we've seen no improvement in maternal mortality and morbidity rates and infant mortality rates either with the introduction of all of these interventions. Meagan: Yeah. One of the reasons why they say that it's mandatory for VBACs specifically is because fetal heart tones decelerating is one of the signs, one of many, that a uterine rupture may be taking place. Julie: Right, right. I said that. Meagan: Oh, you did. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I was reading the link. I missed that. Julie: No, no. You're fine. Say it again. It's okay.Meagan: No, you're fine. Okay. So with uterine rupture, fetal heart decels are not always a symptom of uterine rupture. What do you feel like it means? I feel like so many people feel more comfortable having their baby on the monitor so they can hear them. Julie: Oh, they do. You know what? The staff is more likely to do that too. This is really sad, but we have a labor and delivery culture that is very, very comfortable sitting at a desk down a hall watching a monitor to see how a patient is doing rather than remaining in the room and watching them. They rely more on what is going on on the contraction monitor and the heart rate monitor than they do the visible signs of the patient. It's how they've been trained. It's how they monitor dozens of people at once in a labor and delivery unit, and I feel like continuous fetal monitoring and the contraction monitor are other ways that de-individualizes care. I don't know if that's a word. It takes out the individuality. It takes out the rights to the human and it takes out really watching the person, and relies too much on the data. Data is good. I love data. Don't get me wrong. I am a data junkie 110%, but data can only take you so far. I feel like that's why people freak out about the continuous fetal monitor thing. “How are we supposed to know if you're doing okay at the desk because we can't see the chart on the screen if we're not monitoring you continuously?” It puts more work on them, which is okay. I can't imagine being a labor and delivery nurse because sometimes you have more than one patient that you're monitoring and watching, and you've got lots of other things to do including charting and all of this stuff. Meagan: Yeah, this is one of those things that was created that even though the evidence didn't prove that the reason why it was created worked out, it stayed because it brought ease to monitoring labor, and monitoring it not in the same room, and being able to have five other patients while seeing a chart. Okay, so fetal monitoring is one. Let's talk about the induction or the non-induction that we've seen policies on both ways which also is so weird to me. I know it's hospital to hospital, but why aren't we going off of evidence?Julie: Dude, dude. Do you know what is so funny to me? I will also cry this out from the rooftops until I die, but if you really want to understand what maternal healthcare is like in the United States, you've got to talk to a doula or a birth photographer because we see not only hospital births and home births and birth center births, but we see all of the different hospitals and how they vary in hospital policy. It is so funny to me sometimes the conversations that I hear or have with labor and delivery nurses who insist one thing, then the next labor and delivery nurse in the next hospital insists on something completely different. “Oh, it's not safe to go past 20 for Pitocin on VBAC,” then the next hospital will be like, “Yeah, it's perfectly safe as long as you are monitored and the OB signs off on it.” It's so up, down, and sideways based on whatever this specific hospital policy is. It's not their fault which is why sometimes I like travel nurses in labor and delivery units because they go all around the country and have vastly different experiences with all the different hospitals. It's fun to see the culture shift that can come in when that happens. Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so in some hospitals, it is policy that you have to go into labor spontaneously. Julie: Yeah. They will not induce for VBAC. Oh, but if you haven't had your baby by 40 weeks, it's hospital policy to do a C-section. Meagan: Yeah, they will not induce you, but then if you don't go into labor by 40 weeks, they have to schedule a C-section. What's the evidence there, and why is that even being a policy?A lot of providers after 40 weeks fear or they say that VBAC uterine rupture chances skyrocket after 40 weeks because, “Oh, that baby is getting bigger. They're stretching that uterus out,” but that's really not necessarily the case. We're seeing it happen more and more and more where people are then doubting their body's ability to give birth or go into labor. They are so scared that their baby's going to get so big that they're going to cause uterine rupture if they go past 40 weeks. I mean, really. You guys, the amount of things that we see coming in The VBAC Link's DM's– I love that you guys write us. Please keep writing us, but it's frustrating, not that you're writing us, but that these providers are telling people these things. Then we have the opposite that we have to induce by 40 weeks. Julie: Can I read you this thing? There's a post in The VBAC Link Community today. It was a VBAC agreement form. If you're birthing at a hospital, you're more than likely going to have to sign a piece of paper showing all of the risks of VBAC, but they don't ever make you do that for a C-section. This hospital VBAC policy, hold on. I was reading it this morning. Listen to this. This is word for word from this VBAC agreement form from a hospital. “I am aware that the best chance for a successful VBAC is to go into spontaneous labor, and that the risk of Cesarean section is increased past my due date. In an effort to afford me the best chance of achieving VBAC, I agree to be induced the 39th week of pregnancy or sooner if medical issues are present if I am still pregnant.”In that same paragraph, they say that the best chance of a successful VBAC is going into spontaneous labor, but if you don't go into labor by 39 weeks, we're going to induce you. Meagan: It also says that after 40 weeks, Cesarean chances increase so we have to induce a whole week before. Julie: Yeah. Right? Meagan: I'm sorry. Julie: This is real life. How is this even a thing? Blah, blah, blah. That's what I say. Screw your policy. How can you contradict yourself like that? It says, “The risk of a Cesarean section is increased past my due date, but it's also increased if you induce me, so either way I have increased risk.” This is literally what they are telling you in this form that they make you sign. Meagan: You know, those forms are so important to pay attention to, you guys. As you are getting these forms, the VBAC consent forms, or VBAC agreement forms or whatever. They title them all differently. Julie: I'm just reading this hospital policy more. Sorry. “I am aware of the hospital policy requiring two IV access sites.” Meagan: Okay. Today, which you guys, was last– I'm trying to think. It was a month ago. Okay, a month ago– I recorded the episode today, but a month ago, when this is coming out. Go listen to Paige's midwifery episode. She just was talking about that. That is a policy within the hospital that she helps people at. They have two hep locks. This was news to me as of today, and now you are seeing this in this policy. Why? Why? What is the evidence behind that? Why?Julie: This VBAC agreement form is every single thing that we are talking about. “I agree to have continuous fetal monitoring. I am aware of this policy by this obstetric group–.” I won't say it because maybe we shouldn't call them out. Maybe we should. “--to require epidural placement by the time of active labor. I am aware of the implication that certain complications of labor can be life-threatening to myself and my baby. These can only be addressed promptly at the hospital. To lessen the risk of delay during a complication, I agree (in bold)--”Meagan: Yes. All of the agrees are in bold.Julie: “--to come to the hospital immediately if I am in labor or if my water breaks.”Meagan: Ugh. Julie: “I have been adequately about the risks, benefits, and alternatives of VBAC, and have the opportunity to ask questions. I am aware that no one is able to guarantee a successful VBAC and that repeat C-section may be indicated if my baby is breech, I do not adequately dilate, I am able to push my baby out, my baby does not tolerate labor, there is a concern for uterine rupture, or if any unforeseen medical issue arises during my pregnancy which makes labor unsafe–” according to who?Anyways, “certain methods of induction of labor are not permitted to be used in patients with prior Cesarean sections. I understand that if I am induced, the only safe options include medical dilation with a balloon, Pitocin, and breaking my water.” That, I feel like, is accurate. Meagan: That is valid. That is valid. Okay.Julie: That's the only one. Cool. Meagan: Cool. Out of ten. Julie: Are you reading this right now? Do you have it up?Meagan: Yes. I pulled it up. Let's talk about epidural. You guys, this has 86 comments already. One of the commenters said, “You absolutely do not need to get an epidural, have continuous monitoring, or go into the hospital when labor begins. These are often things to avoid when trying for a VBAC.” Julie: Yes. Yes. Meagan: You absolutely can have these things. “You can have these things, but having an epidural before 6 centimeters can put you at a higher risk of Cesarean including continuous monitoring. Your rights override policies.” This is what she said. She said, “Are you in the States? Did you sign this?” Julie: But I love what Flor Cruz with Badass Mother Birth said. “This is atrocious. Run. I would rather give birth in the woods by myself than to agree with this monstrosity.” Meagan: Really, though. We have so many things coming at us. We're so vulnerable when we are pregnant, and we want a VBAC so badly. We have forms like this being given, or we have policies being thrown at us, and we say, “Just say no,” but when you're in that moment, it's really difficult. I think something that I want to say is, as you are learning these policies, as you're learning more, figure out if you are someone who can stand up to these policies and say no, or figure out if there's someone on your team who you need to have be there to help you find the strength to say no. Also, make sure that your family knows and your team knows what's important to you when it comes to these policies. What triggers you? It is very difficult to say no or, “I am not going to do that,” or to not even say a word because they just strap the monitors on you, or call anesthesia because they just did a cervical exam, and the nurse logged that you're 6 centimeters, so anesthesia is just coming down, but you might be doing really well and not want an epidural. Okay, I want to talk about epidurals. Julie: Let's talk about epidurals. Jinx. Let's do it. This is my favorite policy to tear apart and rip apart. Here's the thing. The reason why they tell you they want an epidural placed, but you don't have to have it turned on, just to have it placed just in case, is if a uterine rupture happens, you can dose up the epidural and go back to surgery, and they don't have to put you under anesthesia. It sounds great, right? Cool, yeah. Let's do that. That sounds great. I don't want to go under general anesthesia if I have to have a C-section. Here's the problem with that. First of all, going under general anesthesia does carry more risks than having surgery with a spinal or an epidural. It does. That's just common knowledge. Nobody is going to argue that here. We get that. The problem is that in a true emergency, we're talking about seconds matter. Minutes matter. If you have a catastrophic uterine rupture and baby has to be out now, baby has to be out in minutes or less. They are going to do a splash and dash. They are going to throw the antiseptic, the orange stuff– Meagan: Iodine? Julie: Iodine. They're going to throw iodine on your belly, and they're going to slice you open. Sorry, that was a very not-sensitive way to say that. They're going to take the baby out as fast as possible once you're in the OR. They have to knock you out under general anesthesia. There is not enough time to dose an epidural, especially if it's not ever turned on. But even if it is turned on, it takes 20 minutes or more to get an epidural dose to surgical strength to where you will not feel the incision and the surgery that comes with a C-section. 15-20 minutes at minimum in order to get you dosed to surgical strength. If you have an epidural, and it is urgent where minutes matter, you will have to go under general anesthesia no matter what, period. If a C-section is needed, there is time to give you a spinal which takes effect in just a few minutes, 3-4 minutes. It takes some time to get the anesthesiologist in and the OR prepped and things like that, but usually and realistically, if it's something that's urgent but not emergent, you can get a baby out in 10-15 minutes without already having an epidural placed. Here's the thing. Placing an epidural is preparing you for surgery, period. If there's an emergency, you will have to be put under general anesthesia, period. If a C-section is needed, and minutes don't matter, but we need to get this baby out soon, you can get a spinal, period. So, screw that epidural hospital policy. It's literally for convenience so you already have an epidural placed so that they can take you back to do a C-section. Meagan: Yeah. But again, the epidural just doesn't get in fast enough even if it's placed or not. Julie: Exactly. Meagan: Ugh, I hate it. I hate when it's like, “I don't want an epidural, but I'm getting it just in case.” Okay, then going back to this policy that she was just reading, “will not labor at home. If my water breaks, I have to come right in.” You guys, if you want to labor at home, do your research. I understand. Always, always– I don't even care if you are a VBAC or you're planning an induction or what. Always learn the signs of uterine rupture, always. It's so important to know. Even though it happens very little, it happens, and we need to know the signs. But, it's okay to labor at home. Talk to your provider about that. If they are like, “The second you have a contraction, you have to come in,” that is a red flag. You guys, they also start monitoring and pushing induction even though your labor has been going. They induce your labor more. They get it going further. What if you're having prodromal labor, and it's just going, and then it stops for 5 hours? There are so many things. I'm no provider. I can't say, “You must labor at home,” or “You should really labor at home,” but really look at these things and understand what could happen if you choose to go in the second your water breaks. Let me tell you what happened to me. My water broke. I went straight in. Within an hour, I hadn't progressed too much, so they started Pitocin. They immediately started Pitocin. They kept cranking it up. My body was struggling. I was struggling. My baby had a couple of decels. They called it. It's just really, really frustrating. I mean, you guys. We have so many comments in this here that I could just read all of them because they say a lot. They say a lot. This is fear-based care. I'm sorry that you're having to go through this.” “This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard,” someone said. Julie: Seriously. Meagan: When it comes to hospital policy, it's not a law. It's really not a law. Stand up for yourself. Understand the policies surrounding VBAC. When you are looking for a provider, we cannot stress this enough. Ask them about their policies. If their policy is that you must get that just-in-case epidural, you have to have that baby by 40 weeks or we induce or we schedule a Cesarean, you have to come in the second a contraction starts, if your water breaks, you must come in. You have to come in. They're making people sign these policies like they are the law. Julie: Yeah, like it's a legal document like you can't change your mind. That's what it does. It makes people think they have to agree to things. “I signed the document, so here I go.” Meagan: Here I am. I have a written agreement, but they can change. What did it say? What did the very first definition say? It says, “It can be amended, changed, or superseded.” Supersede. Julie: Superseded. Yes. But here's the thing, too. I'm kind of glad when hospitals do this because it shows you all of the red flags. It lines out the red flags, no questions, black and white, red flags laid out for you. Then you know either how to address them before labor, or how to hightail it out of there and find another practice because nothing is worse than getting blindsided during labor by a policy that you don't agree with and having to advocate to change that during labor.I would encourage you if your provider doesn't make you sign a wonky form, then before you even start care with them, find out what their hospital policies are about VBAC. Find out so that you can address them ahead of time. Have your provider sign off on changes to policy that you want, and put it in your medical records so that if you get a different provider on the day that you go into labor, that provider can access your records and see that it has been signed off, or approved, or whatever your changes are that they are going to make to the policy for you and your specific needs. It is okay to ask for that. It is okay to fight for that. It is necessary to fight for that sometimes. Obviously, it would be ideal for you to find a birth location whose policies align with the things that you want. Sometimes, somebody might want continuous fetal monitoring. Maybe it makes them feel better mentally. Maybe that's just their preference, and that's okay. It's okay to want that, but it's not okay to let a system dictate how you want to birth when you want something different. Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. It's also not okay for you to feel cornered or like you're bad, coerced, or you're a bad mom because you're making a decision that goes against a policy. I don't like that. I do not like that. It's not okay. I highly suggest going and checking out the show notes and reading more about your birth rights, what they mean, and all of it. In part of that little birth rights document pdf, the 65-page document, it talks about down in the first 4 or 5 pages– let's see. It says, “I have the right to–”, and then it has a whole bunch of things. It says, “To say no and be heard. To have my basic needs be met. To labor in the way that works for me. To birth vaginally. To know all of my options. To change midwives, doctors, and nurses. To not be touched. To ask people to leave. To feed my baby human milk. To leave the hospital or the birth center.” You guys, you have rights. You have rights. You are amazing. Use your rights if you are in a corner that feels like they are being taken away or they're gaslighting you, or coercing you, or whatever it may be. You have rights. Check this document out. I highly suggest it. Talk to your providers. Check out their policies. Dissect the policies. Dissect them. Really break it down. What does that mean? Why is this being put on as a policy?In one policy that Julie just read, it said that they will not induce, and that VBAC is not applicable to being induced with certain things other than x, y, and z. Okay, if you do the research and you learn about that, that is pretty dang valid. That is understandable. That policy has been put in place for your safety. Okay? But there are others that I would say no to. They may be thinking that it's for your safety, but there is no evidence behind them. Dissect them. Learn them. Learn how to advocate for yourself. Get your team ready. Know it's not a law, and love yourself because you deserve more. Okay. Anything else you'd like to add, Julie?Julie: No. I love that. Love yourself. Take ownership. Take ownership of your own birth experience. Don't give it to somebody else. Stand up for yourself. Take ownership. I love what you just said. Love yourself. You deserve to have choices in how you are treated during your birth experience. Meagan: Yes, absolutely. Okay, thanks, everybody. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Anni is a mom of two young girls living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. A big challenge for military parents is creating care plans for older children during birth. They often live far away from family or have recently moved and don't have a village yet. Anni's care plan was shaken up as her induction kept getting pushed back and conflicted with her family's travels.Though her plans changed, Anni was able to go into spontaneous labor and avoid the induction she didn't really want! Her VBAC was powerful and all went smoothly. She was amazed at the difference in her recovery. Another fun part of Anni's episode– she connected and met up with two other VBAC mamas living in Okinawa through our VBAC Link Facebook Community! We love hearing how TVL has helped you build virtual and in-person villages. Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum CoalitionHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link, and I am with my friend, Anni, today sharing her stories. Anni is one of our military mamas. This is the final episode of the week of military episodes. So even though it is a little bit after Veteran's Day, that's okay. We are celebrating our military mamas today. Welcome to the show, Anni. Anni: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here this week. Meagan: Me too. I also can't believe that you are here right now. We were just chatting before the podcast about time. You guys, it is 4:50 AM where she is at. I just can't even believe it. You're in Japan. Anni: Yeah. We live in Okinawa, so I've got to do stuff at weird times if I want to stay in touch with anybody in the States. It's the military thing. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Yes. She is in Japan. She is a mom of two young girls and like she said, she is living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. Her personal values are community, joy, purpose, and creativity which all drive how she spends her time. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she also volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. So mamas, if you are a military mom, and I'm sure a lot of people are flocking to these episodes this week, go listen to Military Birth Talk. Can you tell us a little bit more about Military Birth Talk? Anni: Yeah. So as you said, it's a part of the non-profit Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition, so MBRNPC for short. That's an organization that provides resources for military families who are in the perinatal stage of life, so if you've just moved to a new duty station and you're like, “Oh, I need a doula who's covered by Tricare,” you can go to their website and reach out to one of their chapter leaders. They provide that kind of resource. Also, there is sort of an advocacy wing of the organization that works on policy changes impacting military families. This is our podcast, Military Birth Talk. Right now, we're featuring mostly just military birth stories, but we're in our third season and this season, we're going to be adding some additional episodes like policy conversations, interviews with experts, and that kind of thing. So, as you said, if you're a military-affiliated person listening and you want to hear some firsthand accounts of what it's like to give birth within the military healthcare system, we'd love for you to tune in. Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for doing that and explaining more. Anni: Yeah. Meagan: I just can't wait for you to share your stories. I do have a Review of the Week, and then we'll jump right in. Today's review is by RiverW88. It says, “Gives me hope.” It says, “As a mama who had an unnecessary Cesarean and a poorly planned VBAC attempt that failed and resulted in a Cesarean, listening to these stories and information gives me hope for the future. Not only do I hope to have a third baby and a successful VBAC, but as a doula and an experienced birth photographer, I cannot wait to support other women through their VBAC journeys. I look forward to sending my clients to your website and podcast, and not too far in the future, take your VBAC doula course for myself. I love the way you present facts and inform while giving mamas a platform to share positive stories about a topic that is so scary for so many people thanks to the lack of education out there.” Oh my goodness, that is so true. There is such a lack of education out there and that is why we created the VBAC course that we did and the VBAC doula certification course. So, if you are a parent looking to up your game for VBAC, or if you are looking as a doula to learn more about supporting clients who are wanting a VBAC, definitely check us out at thevbaclink.com.Okay, Anni. Let's jump in. Anni: All right. So I am excited to share two birth stories. I'll focus mostly on my VBAC since that's why we are all here, but I'll give a little bit of context about my first birth. It was pretty routine honestly. I had a breech baby, and there were no breech vaginal birth providers in my area at the time, so that's the spark notes version. But to give a little bit more context, at the time, we were stationed in North Carolina in Newburn, North Carolina. There are a few providers out there, but not a ton. It's sort of remote-ish, but because my husband is in the Marine Corps, we were a little bit limited. I actually was on Tricare Select at the time, so for those of you listening out there who aren't familiar with military healthcare, as a spouse, you can be on Tricare Select which is where you get to choose your own provider. You don't have to be seen by the military healthcare system. You pay a little bit extra. Or, you can be on Tricare Prime which is completely free, but you have to be seen within the military network. I was on Select at the time, so I was paying a little bit extra to choose my own provider which is kind of funny because there was really only one provider in that town anyway. This is one of the reasons why flash forward to a few years later, I wanted to be a part of the Military Birth Talk podcast because we often as military families get a lot of advice that doesn't really fit our life. One of those pieces of advice is to pick your own provider. Do whatever you can to pick your own provider. Sometimes, that's just not possible. That's just not true for military families, right? It can be true for a number of reasons, but it's very true for military families, so choosing my own provider was not really that possible given where we were located. That didn't really come into play until the end when I found out that our baby was breech. Generally, the pregnancy was great. It was a really empowering, positive experience for me. I loved learning about birth. I really hadn't been involved at all in the “birth world” until I became pregnant, then I totally immersed myself. I was super excited to give birth. I was super excited for all of the little quirky things like going into labor and my water breaking, seeing my mucus plug come out, and all of the birth nerd things that I had heard people talk about on all of the podcasts like this one that I had been listening to throughout my pregnancy. It was a pretty routine, positive pregnancy. About halfway through, we found out that we would be moving to Kansas at about 6 weeks postpartum. This is another one of those military things that people would say, “Oh, enjoy nesting and have a really quiet, peaceful postpartum.” I was like, “Okay, that goes out the window. Our house will be packed up by the time the baby is born,” because with the military, you have to send stuff super early. There was no nesting, no quiet postpartum period. There was a cross-country drive at 6 weeks postpartum. That was my first wake-up call around how birthing within the military community can be unique. Up until then, because I was on Tricare Select, I was like, “Oh, I'm not really a part of this military thing when it comes to my healthcare.” That started to shift around then. Then around 36 weeks, we got a scan and found out that the baby was breech. I was so upset. I had just spent the whole pregnancy looking forward to this experience that I now wasn't going to have. It felt like I had been studying for a test or preparing for a final exam that now I wasn't going to get to take. That's obviously not true at all, but emotionally, that's how it had felt. I had gotten so excited about the possibility of seeing what my body could do. It almost felt like I had a sports car and now I was going to be forced to drive it in automatic or something. It just felt like I wasn't getting a chance to experience this thing that I had gotten so excited about. We were really upset, and my husband was too because he had gotten really excited about being able to support me in labor and all of those things. We decided not to do an ECV. I'm sure your listeners all know what that is. Partially, it was because I wasn't a great candidate for it. My placenta was anterior, so that increased the possibility of an emergency outcome. I had a high volume of amniotic fluid, so that also decreases the chances of success, and the position that the baby was in, she was completely breech. She wasn't transverse. She was totally in the wrong position. We were like, “I think we're not great candidates. Let's not do it.” We just booked the C-section. The C-section was fine. It wasn't traumatic, but especially now having had my VBAC and being able to compare the two, it wasn't a great day. I had surgery, anesthesia, and felt nauseous all day, I couldn't really hold the baby until 9:00 that night. The silver lining of that, I would say, is that my husband got to spend the whole day holding the baby because I didn't really feel well. I think that was really special for him after having 9 months of this abstract idea of a baby, and now he got to spend that day with her. I look back fondly on that aspect of it, but otherwise, it was surgery. The recovery was fine. I thought it was, at that point, again, now having had the VBAC and knowing the difference, not really that bad. It was a week and a few days of significant pain, and then after that, it was not too terrible. But again, just not the birth experience that I had hoped for. Then after that, I was not one of those people who was immediately gung-ho about having a VBAC. I think I was a little– I felt so disappointed that I didn't really want to go there in my mind. I was like, “You know, it might just be easier to schedule another Cesarean and not worry about the emotional disappointment.” I didn't want to do that either, so I just didn't really want to think about birth at all for a while. Meagan: That's a valid feeling and very normal. Anni: Yeah, so I took a big break mentally from birthy stuff. We did have a pregnancy in between our two daughters' births that actually ended at around 19 weeks due to Trisomy 18 which is a genetic chromosomal abnormality that is incompatible with life, so that is its own whole story. I don't like skipping over it because we appreciate his life, and it's a part of our story. We love our baby boy that we didn't get to spend enough time with. After that, I got pregnant again when we moved to Okinawa. When my first daughter was about a year old or a little bit less, we found out that we would be moving overseas to Okinawa, Japan. We arrived. We had the 19-week loss, and then a few months later, I got pregnant again with our second daughter who is now almost 9 months old. The pregnancy was so awesome for the most part. I had a little bit of anxiety around having just had the loss and feeling a little bit guarded. I would say it took a little bit of time to actually really be able to believe that she would be born. I think for a long time, I just didn't expect it to work. I think that was compounded by my Cesarean experience. I had this feeling of, maybe my body just doesn't work or something. That took a little while to get over, but for the most part, the pregnancy was great. Because we live overseas, we are not required to be seen on base, but the off-base options are very limited here, especially in Okinawa. The specific, weird thing about the community here is that because Okinawa is such a small island which many people don't know that it is a small island. It's not even off the coast of Japan. It's floating in the middle of the ocean. Meagan: Really? I did not know that. Anni: Yes. If you look it up on the map, you'd see that it's just a dot on the ocean. Because it's so remote, the local vibe here is basically that if the American military is going to have so much presence on this tiny island, they should be caring for their own people which is reasonable. So getting seen out in town is not as easy as it is back in the States because the options are just very limited. The other thing is that really, the only other option that Americans have out here as far as being seen “out in town” which just means off base, is a birth clinic and they don't accept VBAC patients there. Really, my only option, if I wanted to do the VBAC, was to be seen at the military hospital. So, my care there, I was being seen through Family Medicine. You can either be seen by OB or Family Med. I chose Family Med because I wanted to just continue to be seen by my regular PCM. I thought that that continuity of care was nice. Everything went really smoothly. I was sort of on the fence about the VBAC. I knew I wanted it, but again, I was emotionally guarded. Once we got into the second trimester and I started thinking more about birth, I started doing a little bit more digging thing, reading The VBAC Link Community posts a little bit more carefully. Actually, funny story, I posted something in that group. I can't even remember what the question was. Oh, it was about induction actually because it looked likely that we would want to schedule an induction so that we could plan to have family fly out to be with us. They had to buy plane tickets and stuff. Even though that was not at all what I wanted to do from a VBAC perspective, it felt like what we would need to do as far as getting care for our toddler. I posted in that group to try to see if people wouldn't mind sharing their positive VBAC induction stories. Two of the people who responded saw my picture and they were like, “That's in Okinawa. We're here too,” so we met up for coffee and I'm good friends with them now. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Anni: Yeah, so shoutout to Sarah and Tatiana if you're listening. That was really nice to feel like I had a little bit of community here in that way around this very specific topic. I started really committing to the idea of a VBAC. I also, when I say committing, my goal was that I really wanted to have a joyful birth, I didn't want to suffer. I wanted it to be joyful. I wanted to feel present like I didn't have the last time. My thinking about it was basically that those were my priorities. If it ends up being that having another Cesarean is what would get me those things, I would rather have that than lose the joy and the feeling of being present. I'm not willing to suffer just to get this outcome. That was my list in my head. I got a wonderful doula named Bridget who was totally on board with my priorities. She and I really aligned around our level of risk tolerance around VBAC because the hospital here on Okinawa, the Naval hospital, had a couple of specific things that they wanted for VBAC. They wanted me to come in right away as soon as I felt any contractions or if my water broke. They wanted me to come in right away, whereas my preference initially was to have labored at home. So that was one example of one of the things Bridget and I talked about around, okay. What's our preference around how we handle this? Do we want to say, “No thanks. We're going to labor at home for as long as we can”, or do we both feel more comfortable just getting to the space where you're going to deliver and knowing that you'll be there and they'll be watching to make sure that everything's fine? Where I shook out on that was that I'd actually rather just go to the hospital sooner. That was actually fine with me. It was really nice to have somebody to talk through that with. It was nice that we felt aligned in that way. She is really used to working with military families. She is a military spouse herself with two young boys, so that was really a really supportive relationship. My husband felt that way with her as well, and she is still a good friend. That was a really important part, I think, of my preparing for the VBAC. The hospital providers were super supportive which I was very surprised about. I didn't receive any pushback. Anybody who I saw during the course of my pregnancy was totally in support. In fact, I had a TOLAC counseling which they require so they can tell you all of the risks and benefits and whatever. The provider who gave me the TOLAC counseling, I think assumed that I would be coming in blind, so she did her whole spiel. At the end, she was like, “What do you think? What do you think you might decide?” I was like, “Yeah, no. I'm definitely going for the VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, great. I think that's a good choice.” I was surprised by that. I think people, myself included, expected military hospitals to be very antiquated or by the book or very risk averse, which they are, but in this case, it was really nice to see that they had caught on to the fact that in many cases, a VBAC is not actually more risky. Meagan: Risky. Anni: Yeah, exactly. That was really nice to feel like I wasn't going to need to be going in with any kind of armor on. So fast forward to the birth, as I had mentioned, I had “wanted” to schedule an induction for logistical reasons. The way that the hospital here works because they are chronically understaffed as many military hospitals are, if you're having an elective induction, so if it's not medically necessary, they give you a date, then you call the morning of that date and they tell you what time to come in based on the staffing ratios. Our family who we had called to come for the birth that we had scheduled this whole thing around, arrived, and the next morning, we called as it was our scheduled induction day. I will say that the only family who could come was my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, so my husband's sister and her husband. She's a surgeon back in New York, so she only had a 6-day period that they could come. That was part of the reason why we wanted to schedule an induction. They got here. The next morning, we called the hospital, and they said, “Oh, we're too busy right now. We can't safely bring you in, so call back at 4:00.” We called back at 4:00, and they were like, “We're still too busy. We're sorry, but you have to call back tomorrow morning.” My doula had warned me that this was very common. She was like, “Expect maybe 12-24 hours,” but I was just in this manifesting headspace that everything was going to go great, so I was super disappointed. We went to sleep. We were like, “Oh, we were supposed to be at the hospital tonight.” We woke up in the morning, called the hospital, and again, they said, “We are still too busy. For the third time, we can't safely bring you in, so you have to call back at 4:00.” I took a long walk by the ocean. We got lunch. We just killed time. I took my toddler to the playground. I'm like, “Okay, this is it.” We called back at 4:00 PM that day and they were like, “I'm so sorry. We're still too busy.” This was the fourth time. By this time, there was actually a day between when our family arrived and when we started calling. By this time, there was no way they were still going to be here if we had to go for the induction, have what was inevitably going to be a long induction because I never labored with my first, spend the 24-48 hours at the hospital, and then come back, there was no way our family was still going to be here.I was so stressed. They were like, “We know we've pushed you now four times. Why don't you call back tonight at 8:00 or something? We think we're going to get a discharge between now and then. We'll see if you can come in at 10:00, and we'll see if we can start the induction.” I was like, “You know what? Our schedule is already messed up at this point. It sounds like it's already a crazy situation over there at the hospital. I don't really want to go into that mess, and I don't really want to start an induction at 10:00 at night.” I was like, “Can we just come in tomorrow first thing, at 5:00 in the morning?” By this point, it was going to be a Saturday. We were supposed to go in on a Thursday. It got pushed all day Thursday and all day Friday. I said, “Can we push it to the first thing on Saturday morning?” The charge nurse who I talked to said, “Yes, that's fine.” We go to bed. We wake up in the morning, so happy that finally, today was the day. We say goodbye to our toddler. We get to the hospital at 5:30. It's super quiet. Nobody was there. We bring the bags up. We unpack. I had affirmations that I had printed out, Christmas lights, music, essential oils, and all of those things. We start unloading the bag. The nurse comes in and gets me hooked up to monitors to do a non-stress test. We do that. I'm sitting there on the monitors for a half hour. Then she comes in and she says, “The NST looks good.” She starts getting an IV ready because one of their protocols is that they want VBAC patients to have two IVs actually. Meagan: Okay, what is the deal with the two IV thing? I've been hearing this. I apparently need to dig really far into it. Why two IVs? Anni: They said that one was for hydration. Meagan: Okay. Hydration, like for ORs?Anni: Yeah, and the other is for medication, so if they need to hang a quick bag of something like Pitocin– I don't even know. It's so silly because I didn't have anything. When I eventually did get the IVs, I didn't have anything in either one. The second one was really hard to get in. They spent an hour and a half trying to get it in. I didn't even have anything in the first one. I was like, “Nothing is in the first one. If you need to give me meds–” Whatever. Meagan: Stop the hydration and put the meds in, or maybe they need that extra port that they can put in. That's interesting. Anni: Yeah, so she goes to put the IV in. A nurse comes in and goes, “Wait, don't put that IV in.” I'm like, “Why?” They were like, “We don't know. The provider wants to talk to you.” The provider comes back in and she was like, “I'm so sorry, but we didn't realize that you were a VBAC. We weren't tracking that. You got pushed, and we won't induce you on a weekend because we only have one OB and we want to have two,” so we had to go home. They were like, “You have to go home, and you can't come back until Monday.” I burst into tears. This poor OB was like, “You can totally yell at me.” I'm like, whatever. It was so ridiculous. We go home. We were like, “All right. Now, we don't know what we will do for childcare.” Thank goodness, my sister lives in San Francisco. Her husband had a work trip that week that got canceled, so she was like, “I can actually just fly out and be there for you.” She has two kids, so that's why she wasn't going to come before, but now her husband was going to be home. She hopped on a plane right when that happened. We go home, and we were like, “Okay. We will be coming in on Monday.” We go to bed that night on Saturday, and I woke up at 2:00 AM with contractions in labor. Meagan: Oh yay! Anni: I could cry now thinking about it. It was the beginning of a day that was the culmination of everything I had wanted from a birth experience for the last 3.5 years. I had been having a little bit of prodromal labor that week, but it would be one contraction at 2:00 AM and then nothing else. I woke up at 2:00 AM. My husband was sleeping on the couch by this point in pregnancy because I had one of those massive pillows, and he was like, “I can't. I don't fit.” Meagan: I can't compete with the pillow. Anni: Exactly. I was like, “I'm sorry, but I choose the pillow.” He was on the couch. I woke up at 2:00, and I was like, okay. I'm having a contraction. 15 minutes later, I had another one. I was like, “Okay, I had two, but 15 minutes apart is a long time.” But then, 15 minutes later on the dot, I had another one. Then it was every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours from 2:00-4:00 AM. My dogs were there. I was just really enjoying it, honestly. I was feeling emotional. Nothing was super uncomfortable yet, so it was just period cramps and that kind of a feeling. But I was like, “Okay.” We were supposed to take our in-laws to the airport that day because that was the day that they were leaving. I'm like, “Okay. I know how this works. I've heard a bajillion birth stories. I'll wake up at 6:00. The house will get busy. The contractions will peter out. I'll have the whole day to do whatever, then they'll probably pick up tomorrow night after I put my toddler to bed.” So in my head, I'm like, that's the day. That's what's going to happen. The plan was that I was going to drive my in-laws to the airport that morning because my husband was going to pick my sister up late Sunday night. That way, we could split the trips. I didn't want to do the late-night run. 6:00 in the morning rolls around. I wake up my husband and I'm like, “Hey, I've been having contractions for 2 hours, but no big deal. I'll take Megan and Paul to the airport,” which is an hour away. “I'll be back later.” He was like, “What are you talking about? You're not going to take them. Nobody's going to the airport an hour away if you're having contractions. They can take a taxi. They'll be fine.” I'm like, “No. They're definitely going to stop when everybody gets up. That's always what happens. He's like, “No. I don't care if nothing happens today. You're not driving to the airport if you're having contractions.” I was like, “Fine. That's silly, but whatever.” Everyone wakes up. I'm still having contractions, but they were very short. They were 30 seconds long and very tolerable. There were a couple that I was like, “Okay, I want to get on hands and knees and hang out on my yoga ball.” But for the most part, they were super easy. 8:00 rolls around. We called a taxi for my in-laws and we actually had a babysitter lined up for that day anyway. I can't remember why, but we decided just to keep her basically and have an easier day. The babysitter arrived at 8:30 and my husband went out. Right as she arrived, my husband went with my toddler to go do something quickly, so I was alone with Brittany, our nanny. I had this one contraction and I was like, “I don't want to talk to her.” We had just met her at that point. She was new to us, so I was like, “Small talk feels really hard right now. I can't make small talk.” I was like, “Hmm. That's kind of interesting.”Meagan: That's a sign. Anni: But in my head, it wasn't. It was going to be a 48-hour experience. That was just in my head. Again, I didn't labor at all with my first, so in my head, this was a first time birth. My body has not done this before. Once our toddler was with the babysitter, I went upstairs and I got back in bed with my dogs. I was just having contractions. I was snuggling with my dogs just trying to stay present. My husband came in and hung out with me for a little while. He said, “You know, if you're still feeling good, I'm just going to run over to the commissary (the grocery store on base) and grab some essentials because we didn't think we'd be here this weekend, and now we're out of milk and eggs and whatever, so I'll go grab some things, and I'll be back in an hour.” I was like, “Great, no problem.” He left around 9:00. At 9:45, I was like, “I can't do this alone anymore.” I feel crazy saying that because it was way too fast to be saying that, but I texted him saying, “I think I need you to come back.” He came back. He brought me some fruit salad because I hadn't eaten anything yet that morning which I could barely get down. I was in labor for sure, but in my head, I still was like, “This is going to be such a long experience. Nothing is progressing yet.”I got in the shower. That spaced things out for maybe one long gap between contractions, and then right after that, they started increasing. They were getting closer together, and they were more like 7 minutes apart, then 6 minutes apart. I was having to moan through them a little bit. We called Bridget, our doula, to be like, “Hey, what should we do?” I was able to talk to her with no problem in between contractions. I was fully present and lucid, so I was like, “Okay, this means I'm not in active labor because I'm totally present. I can have a conversation,” but then during the contractions, I would really need to put the phone down and moan. Meagan: Okay, I was going to say, but that was in between contractions. Anni: But in my head, again, I was so emotionally guarded around, “I don't want to expect that this is going to happen. I want to expect the worst.” She was like, “Okay, yeah. They are 6 minutes apart. I would really recommend that you wait until it's been at least 1 or 2 hours when the contractions have been that close together before you consider going in, but if you want to call the hospital and ask them what their preference is, you can do that.” I was just starting to feel really anxious about laboring in the car. I also just had this feeling that I just wanted to be there. I just wanted to be where we were going to be and feel settled, which surprised me. I thought I would want to stay at home for a long time, but it was the feeling when you have an afternoon flight. You don't want to hang out at home before your flight. You just want to get to the airport. That was how I felt. I was surprised by that feeling. We called the hospital. We told them what was happenind, and they actually did say, “Yeah, why don't you just come on in?” We told Bridget. I was a little nervous. I was like, “Ooh, I bet she's going to think that this is a misstep. We are going in so early.” But I just was like, “That's what I want to do.” We got in the car. We went over to the hospital and got checked in triage. I was a 1. I had never had a cervical check before ever because my last baby was breech and in this pregnancy, I hadn't been checked yet. I was super, super tense, and the provider, the nurse, was like, “I can't really get up there. Your cervix is really high and hard. I can't really get a good feel, but you're definitely a 1 or a 2.” So I was like, “Okay, not great.” She left and was gone for a while, I guess, to talk to the provider, and then when she came back in, my water broke, and there was meconium in the water. So I was like, “Okay. All of these things are not great. I'm at a 1. I'm a VBAC. My water is broken, and there is meconium. All of these things are going to make the providers feel urgency around getting this thing going.”But I was like, “Ugh. I definitely don't want to get an epidural if I'm only at a 1 because that's a terrible idea, but I also really don't want to get Pitocin if I don't have an epidural.” I was really hoping that I could have a natural birth without any medication, but I also again, going back to my list of priorities, I was like, “I want the joy. I want to be present. I don't want to suffer. If I can check all of those boxes and also experience an unmedicated birth, then that would be amazing, but I'm not willing to sacrifice any of those things.” So after my water broke, they brought me into the delivery room. I just started laboring. They came in maybe a half hour later and said, “We probably want to start some Pitocin.” I was like, “Let me wait on that. Just give me a minute to think about things,” which we can always do. Ask for more time if nothing is an emergency. Thank goodness I did that because in the half hour, I was thinking about it– not thank goodness that there was an emergency, but there was an emergency, and the only OB who was there that day got called away to do emergency surgery, so he became unavailable for the next several. The Pitocin was off the table for the time being, and so I just got to labor on my own. Bridget arrived, and she had me get into a whole bunch of funky positions. The baby was posterior which I knew because I was feeling this all in my back, and so she was having me get into all of these really uncomfortable, asynchronous positions with my legs in all kinds of weird places. It was super uncomfortable, but I knew that it was effective. I kept laboring. As I said, they had trouble getting the second IV in. That took a really long time even though there was nothing in the first one they had put in. I guess I also had two monitors on me. They were Bluetooth monitors, so one for me and one for the baby. I don't remember that at all, but my doula said that they were messing with them the whole time because they kept moving. I don't remember that. I think I was just more in labor land than I realized. But I had the two monitors. They finally got that second IV in. The anesthesiologist came to do it, and after he did the IV, he gave me the whole epidural spiel which they have to do for legal reasons which I wasn't paying any attention to because I was just moaning and groaning and ignoring him. So he left. I kept laboring, and then around– we got to triage at noon and we got checked into our room around 1:00. Around 3:30, they came back in and asked about the Pitocin. I was like, “I need to get more information about this because I need to figure out what I'm going to do for pain management if we're doing Pitocin.” Bridget was like, “Why don't you just get checked again and see where you are?” I was a 7. So either I made a ton of progress in that 2 hours, or I wasn't really a 1 when I got there, and my body was stressed and it clamped up, or the provider couldn't get a good read. Whatever it was, in my head, I went from a 1 to a 7. Meagan: Massive change. Anni: Yes. I think I giggled. I was just so happy. So they were like, “Okay, well we don't need to do any augmentation. You're progressing just fine.” I was like, “Okay. We're doing this. We're just going to keep going.” Bridget recommended that I go to the bathroom because I hadn't peed in a while. I went over to the toilet, emptied my bladder, then had a huge contraction and felt super like I needed to get off the toilet immediately. I hopped off and went back to the bed. A little bit of time passed, and then I started feeling like I had to throw up, but it wasn't a nausea throw-up. It was like my abdomen was heaving kind of thing. I was like, “Am I pushing right now?” It was this involuntary feeling. I knew about the fetal ejection reflex, but in my head, I thought that was more of a sustained bearing down feeling and this was a more grunty thing. Everybody heard what I was doing, and the nurse who was phenomenal, her name is Cassie. She was such a godsend. She checked and she was like, “Yep, you have no cervix left. You're good to go.” This was at 5:00. Meagan: 2 hours later. Anni: Yeah. I just couldn't believe it. I still thought it was going to be hours and hours and hours because I was so guarded, but it wasn't. There were about 15 minutes between when she checked me and when I really started pushing. I labored down a little bit. The providers lost the baby's heartbeat at one point which is super common when they're in the birth canal, but because this provider knew I was a VBAC, and he had experienced some things before and was very risk-averse, he wanted to do an internal fetal monitor. I was like, “You know what? Not ideal. I don't love it, but that's fine.” I wanted to maintain that calm environment in the room. I didn't want people to start freaking out. I was like, “That's fine. Do what you need to do.” They did the internal fetal monitor. I rolled over to my hip. I wasn't having those grunting urges anymore, but I could feel the baby moving down on her own. I felt her head start to stretch me, then she sucked back in. It started to feel scary like, okay. There's no way out at this point. I'm the only one who can do this. I'm going to feel all of this.I gave a couple of really strong pushes. Up until then, I had been breathing and pushing because that's what my pelvic floor therapist and I had talked about, and I had really practiced that. But the provider again, had nervousness about the heartbeat. The internal monitor wasn't picking up what they wanted it to, so the nurse was like, “Okay. Let's give this one really good push.” I gave one really good push. I felt her head come out, then shortly thereafter, her body. My husband said, “Oh my gosh, she's here. You did it!” They put her right up on my chest, and it was just incredible. Looking back, now I say it was incredible. In the moment, I think I was completely shocked because it was so fast. I had a ton of adrenaline. I had the labor shakes, so my chin was chattering. My husband moved the baby down a little bit because he was like, “You're going to knock her in the head.” It was just amazing. I felt so empowered. It took me a few hours to come down from feeling shocked, but 3 hours later, we were in our room with the baby, and I had showered already at that point, walked myself to the maternity room where we would spend the next day, and it was just so beautiful. I look back on that day all the time in my head. I relive that day all the time in my head. I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was so incredible, and it was an experience that I will draw strength from for the rest of my life. It was just amazing, yeah. Meagan: Oh my goodness. And being pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and having a plan, and then it changing, and having a plan, and it changing, I mean, it was meant to work out this way. Anni: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: I'm sure you can feel that now. Oh, it is just amazing. It just goes to show that sometimes first-time vaginal births don't take 40 hours. They can go quickly if your cervix is ready and your body is ready and your baby is ready. I love that your doula was like, “All right, let's get in these positions.” You talked about going from a 1 to a 7. You may very well could have been a 1, but positional changes and getting better application with the baby's head to the cervix can make a big difference. Anni: Yeah. I will say I think one of the things that also made a huge difference was that I mentioned I had seen a pelvic floor physical therapist. I had started seeing her around 20 weeks because I thought I had appeased knees at one point. I was like, “I want to nip that in the bud right away.” I went to go see her, and we really worked a lot on relaxing my pelvic floor and how I would need to do that during labor. I thought I was one of those people who was like, “I'm relaxed. I can relax my pelvic floor. That just means not clenching,” but it's so much more intentional than that. Meagan: It is. Anni: Practicing actually really relaxing my pelvic floor through pregnancy was so helpful because I knew what I needed to do during a contraction to not tense up at all. I think that really helped things progress. Even with a posterior baby, usually that can take a really long time, but it was a really fast labor. I give my pelvic floor therapist at Sprout Physical Therapy if anybody is looking, she was wonderful. Meagan: I love that so much. I love that you pointed out that you did it before pregnancy. A lot of people, me included– I didn't think of pelvic floor therapy before I had my baby. Why would I have pelvic floor therapy before I even had a vaginal birth? That's just where my mind was, but it's just so, so good. Now, I personally have seen a pelvic floor therapist, and I understand the value and the impact that they can make so much more. Like you said, they teach you how to connect and truly release and relax because we might think we are, but we are not. They can help avoid things like really severe tearing and that as well. Anni: I had no tearing. I had a first-degree tear. It was easy peasy. Yeah. Meagan: Yes, yes. I have heard that a lot of people who do pelvic floor therapy can reduce their chances of tearing based on what they know and how they connect to the pelvic floor. Anni: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just super grateful and so grateful for resources like this. I think storytelling is such a powerful tool and listening to all kinds of VBAC stories was really helpful, even the ones that didn't go as planned because that's always a possibility. I really wanted to be mentally strong against that. I didn't want to be crushed and feel like I lost my hopes and dreams. I wanted to come out on the other side of what happened with some sense of acceptance, so hearing all of the stories was so helpful, and having the community here and having my VBAC friends here in Oki was amazing. Meagan: I absolutely adore The VBAC Link Community, and I love hearing that, not only did I meet people who were my friends online, but we connected in our own community because there are Women of Strength all over. You never know, if you reach out there, you will probably have someone down the street. There are thousands and thousands of people in there, so I highly suggest to go to The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. Answer the questions and dive in because there are also stories being shared there daily. Anni: Yeah. I felt so reassured. I think I got 40 responses when I asked for positive VBAC induction stories. There were so many responses, so I was like, “Okay. I can totally do this.” It made the pregnancy easier. Regardless of what the outcome was going to be, it alleviated the anxiety that I had about the induction. So even though it didn't end up going that way, it definitely made a positive impact on my pregnancy. Meagan: Absolutely, and I know that VBAC groups can make a negative impact as well like it did for me. I was in the wrong VBAC supportive group that I thought was supportive and it just wasn't. That is why we created this one. There are other amazing ones as well, but that's why we created this one because we do not handle the B. S. We just do not tolerate it. It is a loving community and only a loving community. That is what it's for. Anni: Yeah. I was also in the chat feature. There was a chat group for people who were giving birth in the same month. I was in the January group. That was an amazing group of people too. I got so familiar with those names and those stories. People were so supportive of every outcome. There were people there who got their VBACs. There were people who ended in unplanned Cesareans. There were people who at the last minute, decided that they wanted a Cesarean, and everybody was loving and supportive. It was just an awesome vibe. Meagan: It really is. Oh, that makes me so happy because these are exactly the goals that we had when we created these groups. Oh my goodness. Anni, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Congratulations on your VBAC, and I am so, so happy for you. Anni: Thank you so much, Meagan. It was so awesome to be here. I love this podcast. Thank you for everything that you do, and thank you so much for having me on here today. Oh, do you know what? I had one more thing I wanted to share with Tricare, everybody. I'm a Tricare doula. I work with Tricare here in doula. Definitely talk to your Tricare rep if you're out there listening to see because some of them do offer coverage for doulas. Anni: Yes. Meagan: I just wanted to let you know. Anni: Yes. They just announced a new set of regulations around that. Literally, new laws just came out around that so there are new details around that, but if you are on Tricare Select, you have the option to have your doula be covered by Tricare. Just a quick advocacy plug here, if you're being seen at a military hospital, you cannot access that benefit which is a huge problem because Servicemembers have to give birth at military hospitals, so Servicemembers themselves cannot access this benefit which is a huge problem. That's one of the things MBRNPC is trying to advocate to change coming up. So if you are listening out there and you have any access to any kind of advocacy channels, please get the word out that we need to fix that. Meagan: Yes. It does need to be fixed. Talking about hiring the doulas because it's Select and you go outside, we do have to have referrals from that provider. We have to actually have a referral from that provider for the doula before we can start, and we cannot start before 20 weeks so just to let you know. Even though a lot of people hire doulas early on, Tricare does not allow us to be seen until that 20-week mark. So gear up, plan, know that at 20 weeks, you can start seeing a doula and learn more about it. Oh my gosh. Thank you again so dang much. Anni: Thanks, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Text Hannah!Are you considering an unmedicated VBAC but feeling unsure about how to prepare or if it's even possible? In this episode I dive into the misconceptions around unmedicated VBACs and I discuss essential preparation strategies (both physical and mental) that can help you approach your VBAC with confidence.Tune in for action steps to help you prepare for your low-intervention unmedicated VBAC! First 3 Steps to VBAC Guide: https://www.thehannahgill.com/firststeps Quiz - Is Your Provider VBAC Supportive?: https://thehannahgill.com/quiz Doula VBAC and Repeat Cesarean Guide: https://www.thehannahgill.com/newdoulatips

Colleen's first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage at 6 weeks. At 12 weeks along with her second pregnancy, Colleen and her husband found out that their daughter would be born with a genetic condition called Trisomy 18. Colleen shares her experiences with Trisomy 18 and how she found the right support to help her navigate through it all. Due to IUGR and other medical concerns, Colleen had her daughter via Cesarean with an 85-day NICU stay afterward. To her surprise, Colleen had a third pregnancy just 6 months after her daughter's delivery which ended in a heartbreaking second-trimester miscarriage. After discussing her pregnancy and birth histories at an appointment, Colleen's doctor referred her to be screened for a MTHFR gene mutation for which she came back positive. MTHFR (methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase) is a gene that impacts your ability to process and absorb folate. It can be responsible for complications during pregnancy and is detected through a simple blood test. Colleen and Meagan talk more about what MTHFR means, and what Colleen was able to do to have a fourth uncomplicated pregnancy and a beautiful, smooth VBAC delivery! Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome to the show, everybody. We have our friend, Colleen, on with us today sharing her stories and navigating through this amazing journey that we call birth. Birth is such a journey, wouldn't you agree, Colleen?Colleen: Absolutely. Meagan: One of the most unique things about it is obviously through the stories we all hear. They are all unique and individual to us and even one birth that you've given doesn't mean the next birth is the same. So we're going to be talking today about navigating through birth and we know that a lot of the times through these journeys whether it be because of a Cesarean or because of how we were treated or because of how our body responded or whatever it may be, sometimes and a lot of the times, we experience trauma. Trauma is viewed differently from everybody and processed differently. We are going to be talking about navigating through trauma. Then Colleen is actually going to share some of her fertility journey as well. I think that's also a really important thing because we have so many mamas out there– we know. We know. We see it. They have to navigate through fertility challenges. We're going to be talking about that along with a VBAC. Let's get into that here in just a minute. We do have a Review of the Week then like I said, I'm going to introduce Colleen and turn the show over to her so she can share her beautiful stories. This review is from lexieemmarie. It says, “So thankful. I just wanted to say thank you for creating this podcast. I had my baby girl via emergency Cesarean at 30 weeks due to several medical complications with my baby. We spent 95 days in the NICU and while in there waiting for my sweet girl to grow, I started to research VBACs to see if it was right for me. Once I found this podcast, it sealed the deal. I absolutely can't wait to VBAC with my next pregnancy. You all are incredible to listen to because you provide the wealth of knowledge and positivity but are also fun and entertaining to listen to. Amazing job, ladies.” Aww, that just made my heart so happy. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much, Lexi, for your review. As always, we love these reviews. They make our hearts and our minds so happy. You guys, this is what we want. We want you to have that wealth of knowledge. We want to have you feel inspired and guided and uplifted and educated along the way through all of these stories. As usual, leave a review if you haven't yet. We would be so grateful. Meagan: Okay. We have Ms. Colleen. She lived in Michigan. Did you have your VBAC baby in Michigan? Colleen: I did, yes. Meagan: You did. Colleen: My husband and I live in a suburb of Detroit in Gross Point so that's where I gave birth in August of 2024. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Wait, 2024? Just right now?Colleen: Yeah, I'm 2 weeks postpartum. Meagan: Yes, I love it! So really, really fresh. Colleen: Fresh. Meagan: I love sharing stories that are so fresh like that. It is right there in your brain. Colleen: Exactly. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. She has two beautiful children now and one two-week-old baby. Your two-year-old daughter is Gianna? Colleen: Gianna, yes. Meagan: She was born via Cesarean due to chromosomal abnormality. Do you want to share what that means?Colleen: Yeah, I would love to. Gianna has a chromosomal condition called Trisomy 18 that we did find out about through the genetic screening early on in pregnancy that she was considered high risk for coming down with Trisomy 18. As the pregnancy progressed, it became pretty evident that it would be the reality. For those of you who don't know, Trisomy 18 on its surface means that the baby will have an extra 18th chromosome in some or all of their cells. How that manifests itself is through some pretty serious medical complexities that require quite a bit of care. I will get into that a little bit more with my story but that is the quick version of Trisomy 18. She is also now 2 years old and a bubby, sometimes sassy, little girl. Meagan: Is there another name for it with an E?Colleen: Edwards Syndrome, yes.Meagan: I have another friend who has that and I seriously adore him. He is thriving and doing amazing in life. Colleen: Yes. She is a warrior. She is so strong. She is so beautiful and has brought nothing but love and joy to everyone who knows her or who don't know her. There are so many people from near and far who love her. It's great. Meagan: Yes. Awesome and then we've got Sonny who was born via VBAC just two weeks ago you guys. She says, “As a mama of a medically complex child, she is passionate about awareness and education for those within her daughter's condition. She also enjoys running, reading, cooking, and volunteering.” Colleen: Yes, that's a little bit about me. Meagan: I love it. Welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here with us. I would love to turn the time over to you to start sharing Gianna's story. Colleen: Amazing. Thank you so much for having me on. The VBAC Link was a staple on so many of my walks when I was getting ready to give birth. I just found it to be so uplifting and empowering and I'm so glad that I found you as a resource. A little bit of background before getting to my VBAC– it really does begin in about 2022. It starts out with some of those fertility issues that you had mentioned at the start of the podcast. My husband and I decided to start trying after about two years of marriage and we got pregnant pretty quickly. That ended early in a miscarriage at about 6 weeks. But we said, “Okay, let's try again.” We had processed and accepted that miscarriages do happen so we quickly said, “Let's give it another go.” But we had those reservations and that in the back of our mind of moving forward cautiously. We did get pregnant quickly again. Throughout the first trimester, we just kept it tight-lipped. We just told immediate family and then decided we wanted to do the genetic testing of course to find out the gender. We didn't really give too much thought to what else you learn from that bloodwork. As my pregnancy progressed throughout the first trimester, I was feeling confident then at about 12 weeks, we received a call from my midwife. She told us that it was a girl and that she came back high-risk with Trisomy 18. We weren't expecting that. It was scary and a shock and the more we learned and the more we read in those early days was devastating to us. We were just coming off the heels of a miscarriage so then to have this thrown at us was just a real curveball. In order to move forward and navigate that, my husband and I were always planning on keeping the pregnancy so it just meant, what does that mean going forward? After talking with more specialists and maternal-fetal medicine at the health system that I was at at the time, it became very apparent that they weren't really willing to help. We needed to find another health system. We are so fortunate because we were living out of state for quite some time then moved home before we started to try. We were living in Chicago and then moved back to Michigan. University of Michigan, so CS Mott Children's Hospital is for sure the best in the state and one of the best in the country for caring for kids with my daughter's condition. We switched all of my prenatal care there and they provided us with hope and were willing to monitor me and have a very wonderful NICU. They were willing to provide interventions and things after she was born. But as it related to my pregnancy, it completely deterred any sort of plans and any sort of “normalcy” that one might have. It was shrouded in sadness and anxiety and fear and unknown. Each ultrasound and each week was closer and closer to meeting her but also closer and closer to what does this mean for her? What does this mean for our family? I completely abandoned any apps or what size fruit she was going to be at a certain week because she had intrauterine growth restriction. That rulebook and those guidelines went out the window. I was really afraid to connect with her when I was pregnant. A lot of the time I would say, “Okay, be in tune with her. Read to her and rock her and listen to music with her,” and I would just end up in the nursery that we decorated in tears because I just had so much fear and sadness around what was to come. With that being said, because my plans had been derailed, I really threw myself into learning about her condition and learning about what would come afterward. That gave me hope as a very Type A person. I needed to be doing something to prepare and connected with other families from around the country to give me and my husband hope and learn about what life with children with Trisomy 18 looks like and what they are capable of really was our main driver throughout pregnancy. With that said, I did not prepare for birth at all. I didn't learn about how it could possibly go. I really just, like I said, focused on what care for her would look like. Just as a very small example of what that even looked like was when I came to write my birth plan, I probably wrote a couple of things like, “Oh, open to epidural. Do you have a birthing ball?” I honestly had a line in there that said, “If she is born not breathing, resuscitate her.” That is where my head was throughout pregnancy and it just came to however she was going to arrive, that was second to her being here and us starting to care for her. Meagan: Yeah. Colleen: That said, my care team, obviously I was being seen by the MFM department at CS Mott. They were very supportive. I never felt like they weren't looking out for both me and her. I think they wanted me to deliver vaginally and with the understanding that if it came to a Cesarean that would be what it was. My husband and I made it very clear that we wanted to be treated however they would handle a typical pregnancy. Meagan: Anybody else, yeah. Colleen: Yes. Yes. If it meant a C-section, that's what it was going to be kind of thing. She was showing that she wasn't tolerating labor. We got to the end of pregnancy and we were discussing what birth would look like. We all agreed that an induction at 37 weeks was going to be the plan for a couple of different reasons. From our perspective, we wanted to just start caring for her knowing that she was going to have complexities. We were in the best place possible to start that process. There is some research that would show that the longer that babies with Trisomy 18 are in utero, you could run into a stillbirth situation. Now again, it's a little bit more on the anecdotal side because many, many kids with Trisomy 18 are born vaginally at 40-41 weeks and it's how you want to play it. Meagan: You have to weigh it out for what's best for everybody. Was IUGR becoming a problem at all or was she still small but staying within her own growth chart?Colleen: Toward the end there, we were seeing some stagnated growth so yeah, they were very much of the mindset, “Let's just get here here,” kind of thing. She was born at 3 pounds, 12 ounces. She was just a peanut. Meagan: Little tiny, yeah. Colleen: I was induced at 37 weeks without having much knowledge of what the induction process was going to look like for me and I went in at a centimeter. They started with a cervix softener so that they could then insert the Foley balloon. I was in bed a lot. I utilized the tank of nitrous oxide. I labored that way for a while just to mitigate that pain. I was walking around a little bit but honestly, the Foley balloon for me in the whole induction process was probably the worst part. I was in quite a bit of pain after that. Meagan: Were you dilated at all before when they tried to insert that or was it a closed, posterior cervix? I'm assuming at 37 weeks, it's not doing much. Colleen: I was a centimeter when I came in and I was maybe a 2 when they inserted it I believe. Yeah. It was very apparent that my body was probably not ready for that process. Meagan: Yeah. Colleen: Yeah. That also became apparent once the Foley balloon came out but then pretty much I got to 5 centimeters and just parked it there for quite a bit. The pain was pretty intense so I received an epidural after laboring I would say probably 14-16 hours or something like that. The attending OB wanted to take additional steps by breaking my water and my husband and I were talking. We said, “If they break my water and then I don't progress, then what situation are we in?” We also knew beforehand that my daughter did have a confirmed heart defect. We wanted a more gentle approach to induction especially when it came to Pitocin. We really wanted to take it slow and monitor her to make sure she was tolerating it and things like that. We opted for Pitocin before breaking my water and took it slow. I would say probably another 6-8 hours went by. We were taking it very slow. I wasn't progressing and then we started to see some sporadic, not super consistent but enough to keep make us aware of her, decels that she was having. Again, the attending OB really wanted to continue on. She wanted to break my water. She wanted to optimize my chances for a vaginal birth, but again, I think my husband and I were so zeroed in on having her here safely that even the attending OB after observing some of the decels into the night was like, “Okay, I think–”Meagan: That was enough. Colleen: Exactly. She arrived via C-section on October 28, 2022 at 3:18 in the morning which we find incredibly special because 318 is a universal number around Trisomy 18. We just feel that she was meant to be here just as she is. That was enough for us to say, “Okay. We did what we think we needed to do to get her here safely.”Meagan: And happy birthday to her today. She will be 3?Colleen: She's actually turning 2. She's turning 2. Yep, yes. So that was my obviously first birth experience and it was– I can't even say different than what I expected because again, I really went into that not having much of a reference or much preparation at all. I say, “Okay. That was my experience. It was a C-section.” We weren't thinking at the time. We always knew we wanted future children but with the timeline, we had an 85-day NICU stay with her. There were other things that we were focusing on. Meagan: You and the reviewer. You NICU mamas are amazing. Colleen: Perfect review for today. After 85 days, we came home in January of 2023. We were getting settled into home life and then fast forward to about 6 months postpartum. We had just been home for a couple of months and much to my husband and I's surprise, we were pregnant again. From the first miscarriage to my daughter, we had that hope and that mentality of, “We have no reason to think that anything is going to go wrong so let's just operate from the stance that everything is going to be okay.” We took a similar approach this time around. We said, “Okay. We're going to roll with the punches. Gianna's going to get a sibling a little bit sooner than we initially had thought. Let's just play it like everything is going to be okay.” We had met with a geneticist and knew our risk for having another child with Trisomy 18. We were just slightly above the general population when it comes to the statistics there. We weren't super concerned. It was a very, very low risk. We decided to do the genetic testing anyway. I didn't consider myself to be high risk so I moved my care to a little bit closer to home. The University of Michigan is a little over an hour for us. I had a great experience but wanted to move just a little bit closer to home to a practice that is very utilized on this side of town by many women. I did the genetic testing and everything was good. We were having a boy and then the very next day, I woke up to a very large gush of blood. I went to the emergency room. This was on a Saturday. They did an ultrasound and said, “Baby is looking good.” I was again, about 12 weeks at this point. They said, “Sometimes just bleeding in the first trimester happens.” I took that at face value. I came home Now mind you, with my daughter's condition, she has a lot of medical equipment and lower muscle tone so it's a lot of carrying her around and at that point, she was still pretty small but again, I'm pregnant and I'm hauling her medical equipment plus her some days. I'm a stay-at-home mom so I'm trying to navigate all of that. I'm going about my daily life not really thinking much of it just saying, “Okay, that's what it is. The first trimester bleeding.” I went back to the OB that week and they also confirmed, “Oh yeah, it could just be bleeding.” I said, “Okay.” Then about 2 weeks later I'd say, again on a Saturday, it happened again. The bleeding had tapered off then it happened again. I went back to the emergency room to make sure everything was okay and it was a different emergency department. The nurse practitioner came back in after the ultrasound and said, “You have a really large subchorionic hematoma.”Meagan: I was going to ask if that's what it was. Colleen: Yes. We had done research obviously between the two ultrasounds and people said, “If you do, it likely will heal on its own.” Meagan: It takes time, but if you do activity and things like that. Colleen: Yes. I would say probably about 2.5-3 weeks went by with me not knowing I had it. I hemorrhaged again. This time, I really tried taking it easy leveraging my husband, my mom, and my mother-in-law to really help care for my daughter so I would be able to rest and recover. When I had gone to the OB that Monday just because I had been in the emergency room over the weekend, they painted it like there was not much you can do. If you can take it easy, great. If not, I actually went in that Monday and I had brought up the subchorionic hematoma and the provider that I met with said, “Oh, yeah. You have it but actually, I want to talk to you about something else.” It was a potential marginal cord insertion or a velamentous cord. Meagan: Okay. Colleen: She said, “I actually want you to be more aware of this than the subchorionic hematoma.” Again, it was pushed to the side. At that point, in partnership with some other pretty inappropriate and I would say frankly bad bedside manner from the practice, I was looking to move again. They were very insensitive around my daughter's condition. They made me to be othered because of her. I just didn't appreciate that. I was like, “This is a different birth.” I didn't appreciate that treatment. They asked very inappropriate questions about her and her life expectancy and things that were very triggering for a) someone who was fresh out of birth and a very traumatic pregnancy. I just felt that was very inappropriate to ask those things especially when we are also not talking about my daughter. We are talking about this pregnancy at hand that was having some issues. I was looking to switching providers. I have my best friend in the area. I loved her. She was pregnant at the time as well. She loved her OB so I was looking to switch. I couldn't get in for a couple of weeks so I just said, “Okay.” At the next month's appointment, I would switch practices away from where I currently was. In the meantime, I would say about a week and a half later, I was bleeding again. It was on a Monday so I got in that day and I personally had a little bit of peace around it because I just said, “Okay, this has happened before. Baby has always been okay, but let's get in.” So I got in that Monday and I was given an ultrasound and the ultrasound tech put the wand over my belly and then very quickly went out of the room. My heart sank. I just knew what that meant. She came back and I asked, “Was there a heartbeat?” She just shook her head no. I was by myself because my husband was home with my daughter and it was just completely unexpected and devastating. It crushed us because we again had just come off of something so difficult and had so much hope and for that to be the result was quite crushing. I had reached out to the OB that I had planned to switch to and I just explained the situation. She said, “I'd like to still see you.” I went in about 2 weeks after my miscarriage and just laid everything out for her. She shook her head after me telling her about my first miscarriage and then my daughter and this most recent miscarriage. She took it all in and she goes, “I think there is something going on. I don't think these are just flukes so I want to run some tests.”She ordered some pretty extensive bloodwork mostly in the autoimmune space but she also ran for MTHFR. After many vials of blood and a few weeks of waiting, I came back negative for anything autoimmune but I did in fact come back for MTHFR and she is a provider who believes that it does make a difference. She said at the time that she provided us with this glimmer of hope. She said, “If I know that a patient has that, I start them ideally on a pretty ‘easier' regiment or something to get them started to see if that makes any difference in their pregnancies. If not, we can build with Lovenox injections and things like that.” Basically she said, “I want you on additional folic acid.” I took methylfolate and a baby aspirin. But she posed it to my husband and I. “Do you just want to go the Lovenox route? Once you go on Lovenox, I won't be able to walk you back on additional pregnancies. If you have a successful pregnancy–”. Again, knowing this wasn't going to be the answer and that we could potentially have another loss or more issues with pregnancies but we wanted to start on that first step before jumping forward.She said, “Pick up those supplements when you feel like you are ready.” We needed time. We needed months of healing and of focusing on my daughter's care to just really level-set for our family. But in December of last year, we felt strongly that we wanted Gianna to have a sibling so we decided to try again. I got pregnant and began those supplements. From that perspective, my pregnancy was very difficult. Now, it also gave me that time both prior to getting pregnant and then throughout my pregnancy to really– I really wanted to level-set my approach and my outlook on pregnancy. I had felt like I had been always in this cycle of seeking out information or researching based on issues and I think my and as well as my husband, the trauma aspect always played into it of, okay. Here's a symptom. It could be something very normal or it could be these very unique, rare things that we got used to feeling comfortable in that space. Meagan: Yeah. Colleen: I sort of recognized that as something that I needed to work through. I needed to work through some things that were either emotions I pushed aside. I pushed aside the thoughts and feelings around especially that second miscarriage because I said, “Okay, I have a daughter with medical complexities.” I needed to jump back in and I think that distraction helped me push those thoughts away but then I will say they came back. They reared their head and I said, “Okay. It's time for me to deal with them.” So going back to talk therapy has been really helpful for me for working through some of those emotions as well as unprocessed things with my daughter's pregnancy and birth and care and things like that, the realities around her life and how it's impacted myself, my family, and things like that. I went back to talk therapy and then also got pregnant. I thought that was the perfect time to really sort of level-set my outlook on pregnancy. We forewent the genetic testing around. We just said, “What will be will be.” For now, the fourth time, we are choosing to believe that all will be well. We will have these feelings. My first trimester almost felt like the closer I got to the end of my first trimester, the more anxiety I had because I had that second-trimester miscarriage that I just had the opinion that it could happen at any time and why wouldn't it just happen to me again?There were some friends who didn't know that I was pregnant until my anatomy scan just because I felt like I needed to hold it close to my chest. Meagan: Just keeping your space safe. Colleen: Exactly. Exactly. And protecting my own emotions. So the first trimester for my son did have some of those thoughts and feelings. The OB who I had switched my care to was very accommodating. She had a little portable ultrasound machine in her office if I felt like I needed that reassurance that she would provide the ultrasound for me. She asked me how often I wanted to come see her. She was just very understanding and accommodating based on my previous circumstances. It also allowed me the space, especially as I moved through pregnancy, to really think about birth and think about how that process could be healing as well. In my second trimester, I remember going on a walk because I needed to clear my head and just feeling so overwhelmed by not knowing where to start and then I was being hard on myself because I was like, I should have done this with my daughter. I should know these things already. This is my second birth. I was being very self-critical as if I didn't have other things to focus on with her. That's when I came across The VBAC Link. I actually came across it because my husband and I had taken some on-demand birthing classes through Mommy Labor Nurse and we very much so said that we needed a refresher and probably to take some more diligent notes this time around. It was a resource that she has promoted so I checked it out and I just immediately felt like it was going to be so helpful as it was throughout pregnancy just listening to the podcast episodes, referencing the blog, getting your emails, and just really feeling like I had a resource that was going to support me. I can't express how grateful I am for that because– and I'm about to get emotional– of how along pregnancy and that journey has felt. I've constantly felt like I've been up against walls that it's been exhausting to have to overcome and to break down. Meagan: Yeah. It's a terrible feeling to feel so alone in this really big moment in your life and not feel like you know the direction all the time and then also making decisions and then having the world pretty much question why you are making that decision. It's so heavy and that's why I love this community so much because they make you feel connected to people that are not even within reach. They are hundreds and thousands of miles away. Colleen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to have that support because it very quickly became my goal to VBAC because I flipped the script after finding The VBAC Link. I said, “There is nothing pointing to my body not being able to do this. I'm going to go for it.” I'm a competitive person and sometimes I'm competitive with myself and I said, “This is going to be a competition and I'm going to do this.” I will say getting into the true VBAC part of it, my OB was very supportive. She said, “I think you are the perfect candidate to VBAC.” She did want to see what my body did closer to which made me a little bit nervous. She was like, “I'm not for induction but I would do augmentation.” I was like, “Okay. Let's see.” Again, it was a motivator to me to do all of the things that I could do to edge myself along kind of thing. The biggest thing I leveraged was walking. I walked a ton and I just found a routine in the business of life that worked for me that I could rely on each and every day and say, “Okay, these are the three things that I'm going to do throughout the rest of pregnancy to a) give myself peace mentally and physically, but also just to say life is busy, but this is what I'm going to do to move myself forward.” It was a lot of walking. It was a prenatal that I just really adored and I just committed to a pretty nutritious diet to make sure that I was nourishing my body in all the ways that I could. Around 36 weeks, I received a cervical check and was starting to dilate and efface. I was about 2 centimeters. Meagan: Wow. Colleen: Yes, with about 70% effacement at that time. My OB said, “Things are looking good. You are on the right track here.” I just kept doing what I was doing. I did opt for a membrane sweep at 38 weeks and I will say having never labored before, between that 36 and 38-week mark, I was having a ton of prodromal labor which was very frustrating because I never knew what was real. We went to labor and delivery once. I got turned away and sent home. I thought it was the real deal. Yes. Prodromal labor is a tease. But after the membrane sweep, it became very apparent that I was actually in labor. That afternoon, my husband and I and my daughter lay on the couch. I was having closer and stronger contractions and we joke that it was absolutely the real deal because all the times leading up with prodromal labor, everything was squared away. My meals were prepped. Everything was squared away with my daughter. My in-laws and my parents were ready to go and jump in. The day that I started to be in labor, our basement flooded with our sewage backed up. Meagan: Oh no. Colleen: I'm actively in labor and my husband comes up and says, “This is absolutely the real deal because this wouldn't have happened if you weren't.” I'm in labor and my father-in-law are bleaching the floor and scrubbing. It was a whole thing and I was like, This isn't funny right now but it will be funny one day. And it's funny. I was able to labor at home for a few hours. I got to the hospital. I had the membrane sweep at noon that day. I got to the hospital around 9:30 PM and was at a 5. I was feeling pretty good about that. I was feeling those contractions of needing to pause. I wasn't really able to talk through but still at that point now knowing what later labor felt like that it was just the beginning of things. I had a wonderful labor and delivery nurse who was super supportive. I never felt being there like I had to convince anybody. They knew that my plan was a VBAC. The attending OB was cool with it. My OB lived just a few minutes away from the hospital and said that she would be there within a moment's notice when I did deliver so I would have her for the moment of. I got to a 5. They did put me on the monitors and had me hooked up so my movement was pretty limited which kind of limited what I was able to do. I wanted to walk a little bit more. I was only able to sit on the birthing ball in a certain area of the room. That was a little bit tricky. The shower was really nice and I did appreciate laboring in the shower but it was the attending OB who had checked me when I first got there and determined I was a 5. A few hours later, the labor and delivery nurse checked me and said, “Oh, I think you are a 7.” My goal was to get to active labor before I decided if I wanted an epidural but ideally, I wanted to go unmedicated. So when they said I was a 7, I was like, “Oh, okay. All right. That's the motivation I needed to keep pushing on. I can do this.” My contractions were becoming more frequent but they weren't getting stronger. It almost felt like at a moment's notice when they had to put the IV in or if the pain was too intense that I would start to space out again which I found to be interesting. But when a few hours went by, the pain was intensifying. They wanted to check me again and it was the OB this time who had checked me earlier and she said, “Oh, you're a 6.” My husband and I said, “Well, they said I was a 7 when they checked me last time.” She said, “Yeah, but I've got the frame of reference and you're more of a 6.” That messed with my head. Meagan: I'm sure. Colleen: My breathing was no longer effective. The pain was getting to me. The next step they wanted to take was breaking my water. I just didn't feel like I was in the headspace to continue on without the epidural. Meagan: You were mentally derailed. That can happen. Colleen: Yeah. When it came to my birth plan this time around, I was a little bit more descriptive because I had done more research. I wanted to go the unmedicated route if I absolutely could. If not, at least active labor. I really didn't want any augmentations or interventions when it came to breaking my water or Pitocin. I really wanted to be able to do it on my own but I will say and I think this is one of my bigger takeaways from this birth is that even when things don't go according to plan, you really have to trust your gut. I will say in those moments, my gut was telling me I think what needed to happen to service the overall goal which was my VBAC. I said, “Okay. I think in order for my body to relax, I want the epidural.” I get the epidural. My body did just that. I was able to relax. My contractions were getting closer together again. They did break my water and now we were into the morning hours here. I get a call from my OB and she said, “Hey, I'm aware of your situation. I see that your contractions are getting closer together but they are still not at that strength that we are really wanting to see.” She said that, “If you are okay with it, they want to start me on very low doses of Pitocin.” She said, “I think you will need a whiff of it in order to get to where you need to be.” My husband and I looked at each other and I think because of our experience with Pitocin previously and not wanting to stall out or anything go wrong, we really struggled with that piece but I think ultimately, we said, “Okay, we're already here. If this is what my OB thinks this is what I need–” and again, I personally felt okay with moving forward in those directions, “then, let's give it a try.” She was absolutely right. They started at a 1 and bumped it up 45 minutes later. I was feeling some pressure and I wanted to switch positions. I had the nurse come in to help me. She lifted up the blanket to move me and she said, “Oh, his head is right here.” He had been crowing for we don't know how long.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Colleen: My husband looks down and he goes, “Yeah, his head is poking up.” My OB gets there. It was super relaxed. She just walked in. She had her sunglasses on. She was just like, “Okay, let's do this.” She was getting set up. He had a bunch of dark hair and she was giving him a faux-hawk while she waits for things to get set up. For the moments that led up to that with anxiety around the interventions, the moment of his birth was very relaxed, very calm– Meagan: Lighthearted. Colleen: It had this great energy around it. I pushed for about 15 minutes and he was born. Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is amazing. What a way to end such a lead-up to get to this moment in your life. Colleen: Yes. His birth, the moment of his birth and the half-hour leading up was so joyous and healing like I had always hoped it would be and exactly what I think my heart needed. Just not necessarily VBAC-related, but I think I also struggled with all of the needs of my daughter and having now split time, I think going from one to two for some mamas can conjure up those feelings and that guilt around what your firstborn is not getting especially with all of her extra needs and things. I was really feeling that guilt. Now he's here and he is exactly what my family needed. He is just this puzzle piece that was missing. We didn't know it. We didn't know it until he was here and now we feel that way on so many levels. Meagan: Isn't that crazy sometimes? This is one of the coolest things I think about being a doula is that we see these couples and they think that their life is so amazing and it is. Don't get me wrong. It is amazing. They think that they love each other more than they ever could love each other. I can see the love in their eyes. I can see the support as the labor goes and then this human being enters their family and like you said, it's just this puzzle piece that fit that you didn't know you were missing. It's this extra joy and this deeper love that they didn't even know existed and it's one of the coolest things to see families transform. Yeah. It's absolutely amazing. Even from no kids to one kid and from one kid to four kids, it doesn't matter. Like you said, it's the puzzle piece that they didn't know they were missing. Colleen: Absolutely. I just can't wait to watch my daughter learn from him and him learn from her. That relationship– I even had the thought where I was like, “I'm the most important thing to my daughter,” then I'm like, “Okay, but she's going to have a sibling and that is such a gift in and of itself that I just am happy to be able to provide that,” but to your point, it is. It's a love unlike any other love. You will always obviously hold your partnership with your partner. It's so important and so instrumental to providing that love for your children as well but that love that you get from birthing a child is unparalleled. Meagan: Oh my gosh. It's so amazing. It is so amazing. I feel so grateful as a doula and as someone who is done having kids– my youngest is 8 years old now but I get to keep living through all of these couples. It's just so amazing. Oh, well congratulations. Colleen: Yes. It's so beautiful. Again, it didn't go on the micro-level according to plan, but on the macro-level and in my big-picture goal of having a VBAC, it was all I could ask for. Rolling with the punches and I will say again, going back to the beginning of the podcast and sharing that I'm a very Type A person, I think had my past not happened, any of these little interventions that were needed throughout this birth could have also derailed me or discouraged me and I just think all of these experiences I had up until this point taught me that rolling with the punches and just understanding that things might not always go according to plan but healthy me, healthy baby– Meagan: And a good experience. Colleen: Exactly. Meagan: Rolling with the punches while trusting your intuition because some of those punches might look like punches but it's actually what you need. Colleen: 100%. Trusting your gut, advocating for yourself, also important to keep in mind. Meagan: Super important. Well, before we go, I wanted to quickly give some more depth into some of the things that you had brought up along the way. We talked about your daughter's condition and then there was something that you said that is a really big tip that I give to my clients when it comes to breaking the waters versus starting Pitocin. It's okay if you don't agree with me, everybody out there. A lot of people would rather break water over starting Pitocin because it's the “more natural way to get things going”. But I'm such a person of, let's try a whiff of Pitocin that we can turn off, but if we are artificially meaning we are breaking the bag of waters by ourselves against mother nature's choice, we can't patch that back up and we don't know what's going on so we don't know if baby's in a weird position. We don't know if baby is too high. We don't know what's going on so sometimes I think just starting that 1-4 mL drip of Pit and then you can always turn it off and it's gone. I was going to say that's weirdly one of my suggestions that over all of my years of doing this, I would weirdly suggest that sometimes over breaking your water. That really depends on where we are at too. If we are 9 centimeters and baby is +2 station, we're really engaged, I dont know. It might change. But if we are at the point where you were at, I actually would suggest that. I wanted to really quickly talk about VCI and marginal. So velamentous cord insertion. You mentioned that the OB was like, “Yes, subchorionic and we're here but then we've also got this.” With VCI, that is where the cord is inserted abnormally into the placenta. It can cause things like IUGR which we talked about earlier so intrauterine growth restriction. I don't know if they gave you any stats on this but it's a 1% chance of that happening with a singleton baby, a 6% chance with twins and then if they do share the same placenta, it can go up. I want to say it's upward of 15%, so much higher. But a lot of the time, even VCI babies carry to term and everything is okay. I do want to throw it out there that a lot of providers do suggest a Cesarean with VCI. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. People can have vaginal births but a lot of providers will suggest Cesareans. If you have VCI or are being told that you have VCI, just know that might be a conversation and you want to discuss that with your provider earlier on. She also mentioned a marginal cord insertion which is where that attaches to the side I believe so also an abnormal insertion. I don't know. Did your provider tell you anything about that? Colleen: Not the statistics around it but they also said that I was 6 months postpartum, post-C-section when I did get pregnant again so their recommendation I think regardless was going to be a repeat C-section. Meagan: Yeah, so it can happen. Then last but not least, I just want to throw out anything that you have about MTHFR to the listeners who may have gone or are going through experiences like you. MTHFR really depends on a provider. Some people still roll their eyes at it but it's definitely a thing. Do you have any suggestions toward anybody who may have it or maybe finding out that process?Colleen: Yeah. Meagan: Or going through the process?Colleen: For sure. Just through my own research, again, my OB was like, “Just additional folic acid.” Meagan: I love that you mentioned that by the way. Colleen: So I obviously am no expert or dietician or nutritionist but when you do have MTHFR, you can either have homozygous or heterozygous mutations. There are also two different variations. There's the A variant and the C variant. I think there is research around the severity or the impact of each of the variants on fertility and things like that but sort of the biggest takeaway when it comes to MTHFR is that it can make you more prone to clotting issues as well as malabsorption or the inability to use folic acid effectively. That is why a lot of research will indicate that you should be on the purest form of folate which is methylfolate because it's so easy for your body to absorb when you do have the MTHFR mutation and then when it comes to having additional methylfolate, essentially I found a prenatal that had methylfolate and was just chock-full of a bunch of good stuff. I was also taking additional micrograms of methyl folate on the side just as a pure supplement. Personally, I found that to be helpful and again, that is something that I baked into that consistent routine of mine making sure I was on a really optimal prenatal as well as taking the methylfolate every day. In addition to the baby aspirin, that was to mitigate some clotting issues. The other thing I will plug is a resource and a follow on Instagram if you don't already follow is Lily Nichols. Meagan: Yes. We love her. She has been on the podcast. We have her books. Colleen: Yes, exactly. In addition to when you know you have MTHFR, just really ensuring that you are getting proper nutrition and that is top of the line in pregnancy when you are trying every day of your life basically. I definitely broke and cheated with my little guilty pleasures here and there of course. But I really largely throughout pregnancy tried to stick to a really vitamin and nutrient-dense diet. Meagan: Yes. I don't know what prenatal you took and I don't judge you for any other prenatal of course. We love Needed but you said the optimal amount. That's what we are finding. So many of these prenatals don't have the optimal amount and they don't have the purest forms. We love Needed and truly 100% suggest it. But yeah, exactly what you said. It's so important. It's so important.Colleen: Exactly. That would be my advice to anyone who wonders. I would also advocate and press to be tested if you are having issues. I just think it would be so beneficial just to have that piece of information in your toolbox so that if you do want to ask either on your own or you do want to press your provider to take it seriously, then I would definitely recommend just saying, “Hey, can I get the bloodwork to find out?” Then you can go from there. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Bloodwork. You can start there and know. Colleen: Exactly. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for this amazing information along the way, your beautiful stories, and thank you for taking the time to share with us. Colleen: Thank you so, so much for having me. It was such a pleasure. Meagan: Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Inhale peace, exhale tension.”Did you know that the cascade of interventions can not only contribute to a Cesarean but may cause one? Melanie believes that was the case with her first birth. Her difficult recovery included going to EMDR therapy to help with her PTSD. Her OB/GYN did mention that she would be a great VBAC candidate. Not knowing VBAC was a thing, Melanie's research began. Cue The VBAC Link!Melanie vigorously dove into VBAC prep before she was pregnant again. Her journey is one that shows just how powerful intuition and manifestation can be. Melanie went from having PROM with her first to arriving at the birth center at 7 centimeters and even being able to reach down to feel her bulging bag of waters as her baby began to emerge en caul!Other talking points in this episode include:Achieving a VBAC without a doulaHusband support Birth affirmationsRecommended podcasts and booksSpecific ways to avoid PROMHypnobirthing by Siobhan MillerThe VBAC Link Blog: 9 VBAC Books We RecommendThe Birth HourDown to BirthNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Happy VBAC Link Podcast day, whatever day it is that you are listening. We are so happy that you are here. We have our friend, Melanie, from Texas. Texas, is that where you are? That's where my mind is thinking. Melanie: Yep. Yep. Wiley, Texas just outside Dallas. Meagan: Perfect and did you have your VBAC in Texas?Melanie: Yes. In Dallas. Meagan: In Dallas, okay. We have her sharing her stories with us today you guys. At the end, we're going to be talking about PROM. Right before we got recording, I was talking about how important I think talking about PROM is which if you haven't heard lately what PROM means, there are all of these acronyms all over the place when it comes to VBAC birth, but it's premature rupture of membranes. We are both PROM moms here and so we are very passionate about the topic. If you have had your water break before labor really started and got going in the past, definitely hang on in the end because we are going to be talking more about that and maybe some ways that could or maybe not, we are hoping these are the ways that helped us avoid premature rupture of membranes. We are going to be talking about that and of course, her beautiful VBAC story. I do have a Review of the Week and this is by milka. It says, “VBAC Podcast Review.” It says, “Hi. I love listening to your podcast. I had an unplanned C-section with my first birth and am preparing for my second birth now. I didn't know what to do to make sure I didn't end up with the same situation. Hearing so many women's stories and experiences validated mine but most importantly, I learned so many tips and ideas to help my VBAC. I had a successful VBAC and now recommend this podcast to all expecting moms. Just such a great no-pressure and enjoyable way to learn.” I love that she talked about no pressure because that is what this podcast is about. This is a place where people share their stories, where they share information both on VBAC and CBAC, and all topics when it comes to birth. We want you to just be here, be in this space, and have it connect with you how it connects with you and take these women's stories and these providers who are coming on and the information given and apply it however, it looks for your journey. Melanie and I were just talking a little bit before the episode about how it just feels so full circle. So many of these Women of Strength who have come on before Melanie here and have shared their experiences and people listening, it really is so impactful. Right, Melanie? You were saying that I was in your ear. We were in your ear and these people's stories were in your ear doing what? Empowering you. Melanie: Mhmm. Oh yeah, it's incredible. It feels very full circle to be here. Meagan: Yes. We are very excited that you are and you guys, we are going to jump right into her story in just a second. Okay. The table is yours. Melanie: Okay, so happy to be here. Meagan, like you said, you guys have been in my ear for over a year so it just feels incredible to be here. As I was listening to these stories, I was always hoping to find that birth story that was like mine just to find out what went wrong with mine and also on the flip side, what did people do? What were people seeing in things that went right and how they were able to get a successful VBAC? I was very motivated and inspired by the podcast. I listened to every episode so hopefully, my two stories out there can hit home with anyone. But yeah. I'll start with, of course, the C-section just briefly. I got pregnant in March 2021 so everybody remembers it was COVID times still. Meagan: Wild times. Melanie: Wild times. Actually, at the beginning of my pregnancy, my husband wasn't able to come to the appointments. But thankfully, it being 2021, by halfway he was able to come. That pregnancy, I was really healthy. I ran. I'm a big runner so I ran every day. I had no morning sickness. I was very active. I never even until the very end– I ran the day my water broke and I never had that feeling like I didn't want to be pregnant.Not the case the second time as we'll hear, but the first time—Meagan: And you do that competitively, right? Did you compete during pregnancy at all? Melanie: I've ran my whole life so I ran cross country and track division one in college. Now, I do more marathons. Yeah. I ran both pregnancies. Not anything too crazy. During the second pregnancy, I did run a half marathon. I was 16 weeks but then it went downhill after that. But yeah. I run pretty competitively. I take it really seriously and it's a passion of mine. Yeah, the only thing I got the first time and the second, but I did. I've heard it before on the podcast is SPD, symphysis pubic dysfunction. The first pregnancy, so the one I'm talking about, a prenatal chiropractor literally cured it. I had to go back a couple of times because it would get out of alignment again, but for anyone who is suffering from SPD like I was both times, it's amazing. I would just call them witches because they would literally cure it and it would get me back to running. It was amazing. So my birth education the first time around, I thought I was educated like so many women here. I read the typical What to Expect When You're Expecting. I did a podcast but it was more so of what size is your baby? What's going on in utero? I didn't listen to many birth stories and I became so obsessed with that the second time. And truly, I feel like you get the best birth education through birth stories because you just get the whole shebang. We did take a hospital birth class and now I know that a hospital birth class is really just the hospital policies. I remember there was a section that they had mentioned very quickly in passing, “If you're going to have a C-section, you should take this class. Okay, the next thing.” I thought like so many women, That's not going to be me. I'm not going to have a C-section. I'm healthy. I feel great. Most C-sections are not planned so I feel like it really did a disservice to not even mention anything about a C-section in that class, but anyway, I just assumed that you have a baby in the hospital. You get an epidural. You take a nap and then you wake up and you push out a baby. I was not against hospitals or anything. I was not against the epidural or anything like that. I mentioned that I ran the day my water broke. This was past 40 weeks. 40 weeks came and went. A couple of cervical checks I got I was not dilated at all. They had scheduled a 41-week induction date. When I was checking out at the front desk at the time, I just remember it feeling really, really wrong scheduling that date. Meagan: Your intuition was speaking right there. Melanie: 100%, yeah. Of course, I didn't realize it at the time. It was my first baby and everything but when I look back, that just felt so wrong. 41 weeks came and I was supposed to go in at 9:00 PM that night but the interesting thing is that my water broke actually 4 hours before I was supposed to go in. It was 5:00 PM and I was supposed to go in at 9:00. Like you mentioned Meagan, it was PROM so it was a trickle. I was like, Wait. Am I peeing? What is happening here? No contractions at all. And with the little education I did, I knew that just because your water breaks, it doesn't mean that you have to go in and you should labor at home as long as possible. However, because I was set to go in and I guess because I was 41 weeks, I called them and I just remember they were like, “No. You're in labor. Come in.”I was like, “Okay.” Meagan: This is labor? Melanie: Yeah, I was like, “Oh, okay.” So I got to the hospital literally not dilated at all. I was maybe half a centimeter and they inserted the Cervadil at 9:00 PM which hurt really bad because it turns out if you are not dilated, it really hurts to get Cervadil inserted. Meagan: And if your cervix is posterior, it's hard for them to get it into your cervix so that can also cause a lot of discomfort. Melanie: That's exactly what it was too because I think they had a hard time. I didn't even think about that. It was probably posterior. Man. Yeah, see? My body just wasn't ready for that. But contractions did come eventually. I don't know if Cervadil can cause it or if it was just time. I was going into labor but that was around 1:00 AM. The contractions started to get uncomfortable. I had not practiced coping with contractions at all because I was planning to get an epidural. I never had any inkling of going unmedicated or anything so this is where I think everything went south.This is where I just think it was the cascade of interventions. First I had fentanyl which I don't know why because I think I was trying to delay the epidural for whatever reason. I don't know why. I had fentanyl first. It was awful. It felt like I was so drunk. The room spun and it was terrible. Then an epidural, which has fentanyl in the epidural. That was fine. After the epidural, of course, you feel amazing, but you are stuck on your back forever. I just think this cascade of interventions, being stuck on my back, not moving, I never ever take medicine as it is. I think my body and my baby just hated all of this. So then eventually, terbutaline was given around 6:00 AM. Meagan: To stop the contractions. Melanie: Yep. I think that's when some decels started happening then they did pull the Cervadil to stop the contractions. There were some decels then yeah, eventually it's all a little bit fuzzy but at 6:45 AM the decision was made for a C-section. At 8:01, he was born. They called it an emergency C-section and now I look back and I'm like, yes. I do believe that it was needed. However, I'll never really know but I really think it was caused and also, if it's an emergency, I understand that they don't wait hours like they did for me and they usually put you under. I think it was more unplanned and I look back and I really think it was caused. Meagan: That is the hard thing to know. A lot of these Cesareans, I would agree with you that they are caused by the cascade of interventions and things like that and then a lot of providers will say “emergent” so there are emergent Cesareans where we need to get this baby out quick and then there is a crash where they do put people under with crash Cesareans. But if they are waiting for hours, it's almost like they gave the emergency title to make themselves feel better or make it look valid to justify that Cesarean. Melanie: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That experience was really awful for me. I think for some women, I think it's awful for a lot of women and then I think for some, it's not that awful. For me, no skin-to-skin. I know that's not very common at all. It felt like it was forever for them to bring him to me. No one was talking to you in this moment and I just don't think these doctors realize in the moment that you're being robbed of something that you envisioned and a really important experience. It just felt like forever for them to give him to me. It was 30 minutes or so. He was fine. He came out completely fine with great APGARS. I was fine. It just ended up in the way I didn't want it to. I did have PTSD from that experience because I was having a lot of flashbacks to it. I went through some EMDR therapy. I had a great therapist and of course, I talked to her about it. She was there for my VBAC as well. But yes. That postpartum was just– the healing sucked. I just felt really awful and I think mentally, it took a really big toll on me. Breastfeeding was really hard. A lot of that I attributed to my C-section. It was not desired. It was just not great. So that was the first birth. I never knew VBAC was a thing or a big deal at all. I don't even think I knew the term VBAC. I went to the 6-week post-doctor's visit and I remember she was like, “Yeah, you'd be a great candidate for a VBAC. However, you have to go into spontaneous labor by 39 weeks.” I'm sitting here like, okay. He was just a 41-week baby. My mom has a history of going late. I don't think that's very likely that I'll go into spontaneous labor by 39 weeks so I already made up my mind that I wasn't going to go with her. I learned later that that is a very common thing that hospitals and OB/GYNs will say to you. Yeah, that was the first one. So then cue The VBAC Link. I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast before I was pregnant. Maybe my son was a year old and I binged every episode. You and Julie were in my ear a ton. The thing that I heard from The VBAC Link was that the likelihood of a successful VBAC for many of these women did happen out of the hospital and like you yourself, Meagan. That's not to say that of course, you can be in the hospital. You can have an epidural and get induced and have a successful VBAC, but when I just heard the overwhelming thing was how much of a better chance you have. I should also mention that my husband works in medicine too. He's a physician assistant. I will talk about that. He had a little bit of a hard time just with the safety aspect of it. But once I let my mind go toward the possibility of an out-of-hospital birth– because I wanted a VBAC so badly. I was so motivated. Then I realized that it was something that I actually really desired, a physiologic birth and unmedicated. When I look back, I think that's why I had such a hard time mentally with my first birth because I think I didn't know that I cared how my babies come into the world and I wanted to experience that. I don't know and in some weird way too, it felt like doing an unmedicated out-of-hospital birth made me almost feel connected to my ancestors. It seems really weird, but I was like, this is what they did. I just think it's something really cool that our bodies do. I wanted to experience that. But I do. I recognize that it was a trauma response for me for sure to become obsessed with research. I binged all of the episodes. I would look for anything related to VBAC. I read so many books and I actually toured. I had a neighbor and a friend who was pregnant at the time and she was going with the birth center that I ended up going with. We would go on walks and she would talk about her experience and how amazing and wonderful it was. I was just like, man. I want that, especially knowing that we were planning to most likely have just one more child. I hated to have that thinking of, this is my last chance, but I did. Meagan: I understand that so much because my husband told me that too and I was like, “I really want this VBAC. I really want this VBAC.” Melanie: Yeah and that's okay. We're okay. It's okay if we have these desires and these wishes. You only get one life. It's okay to want what we want. I'll never forget. I toured the same birth center that my friend was at and again, I was not pregnant yet. It was an education class. I was like, let me just see what these midwives are all about and what birth centers are like. It just immediately– again, it's that intuition. It immediately felt so right. I remember I walked in and just before even finishing the class, before we even really heard them out, I just knew that this was where I wanted to give birth in my next pregnancy. It felt so right. And also, I'll never forget. I had asked questions about VBAC because unfortunately, not all birth centers support VBACs which I don't understand, but I had asked a lot of my questions related to VBACs and I remember the midwife saying, “Well, unfortunately and fortunately, we do a lot of VBACs.” I'm thinking, why would I not want to be with a provider who does the most VBACs? Hospitals don't do a lot of VBACs comparatively. A lot of people are like me. They go to a birth center because they really want a VBAC. That just was really calming to me. I felt like I was with experienced hands. I was safe and there also was not really anything different about a VBAC. I'm with people who understand and trust birth. I brought this up to my husband and I mentioned that he had his reservations because he's a physician assistant and he works in orthopedic trauma but he was in PA school, he had to do OB/GYN rotations. He unfortunately saw some bad birth outcomes so to him, the hospital was a safety net but I was so, so grateful that he was supportive of my desire to go out-of-hospital even though it seemed kind of crazy to him. He came to– we had one meeting with the midwife so he could ask questions and everything. She was so great and answered all of his questions and I actually was unknowingly pregnant at the time. I didn't know it.Meagan: No way. Melanie: It's really weird. I toured the birth center first by myself and it's almost like my body needed that to be like, boom. You found the place where you are going to give birth and then I got pregnant. It was really weird. We were trying but also, it takes my body after coming off birth control some time so it still was a shock. I was like, oh wow. So anyway, the second pregnancy was much harder as I mentioned. I was not able to be nearly as active. I ran that half marathon like I mentioned and then– it was the Dallas half– then my body just went downhill. It was much, much harder. My sleep was horrible. I have an Aura ring and it tracks your sleep and everything then at the end of the year, it will give you a summary of every month's sleep. I will never forget because I got pregnant in September and it's like, January, February, March, April everything is fine and you look at the bar graph time series and it plummets in September. It stayed that way. It was my deep sleep. My deep sleep really, really decreased a ton. Maybe that's normal and I just didn't know that the first time, but I did not tell many people I was going with a birth center. I lied about my due date which I learned from this podcast which is very smart to do. I highly recommend it just because I didn't want to let in any of that negative energy or anything. The couple people I did tell, I did get a couple of people who would be like, “Oh, they're going to let you do that,” like the “let you” language. Meagan: We both did the same thing at the same time with the air quotes. The “let you”. Melanie: Yeah, exactly. I don't blame them. I just think that a lot of people don't have that birth education. And in hospitals, it's very normal to do a repeat C-section even though we all know it's not evidence-based. So very briefly, I want to talk about the prep that I did in this pregnancy that made such a huge difference for me. Number one, all of the podcasts like I mentioned. This one, of course. The VBAC Link, I binged it. I found the Down to Birth podcast at the end and that's a really, really good one. I know everybody does The Birth Hour as well which is good but that one has everything. I loved the more VBAC-specific ones. Then also, they haven't produced any episodes in a while but the Home Birth After Cesarean Podcast was really good too because they were all unmedicated. I was hoping to do that and they were all VBACs. Then books– I read a lot but these were my favorites. Of course, Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. Emily Oscar's Expecting Better is really good. Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way is a little outdated but that one I really loved. It really taught me what productive contractions looked like because I didn't really experience labor the first time. I never made it past a 3 the first time. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't have coping mechanisms. They really focused on breathing. The best book I read and I hadn't heard this one on it. Maybe you know of it but I had never heard about it but it was Hypnobirthing by Siobhan Miller. There are a lot of books on Hypnobirthing but Hypnobirthing by Siobhan Miller. I was just thinking of Hypnobirthing as a possible way to cope. That book was the best book because I really like the science, the physiology, and what is actually happening in your body when you're getting contractions and how do you work with your body. It just had such a great way of explaining all of that.That was the last book I found. I was 3 weeks away from my guess date. That one was great. She also creates the Freya app if you've heard of that. The Freya app times contractions and it helps you with breathing. They give you a lot of mantras. Yeah. That book was amazing. I did get the Freya app too. I did not know I was going to rely on it so much in labor. Also, in that book, it was really big on affirmation cards. I would make affirmation cards then I would read them in the bath and sometimes practice my breathing through the app. I did some pelvic PT and then, of course, the prenatal chiropractor like I mentioned, I continued to do that. Like I mentioned, the care with the midwives was great. Very positive language. I noticed what was really important to me was not, “I hope I can do this,” because of course, I hope that. But my midwives were amazing because every time, they would just speak it. They would say, “You are going to have a beautiful, redemptive VBAC.” They would just say that. Of course, I know I am 50% of the birth story. The baby is the other 50%. Of course, I know that but it was so important for me to have that positive language. I really worked on my mindset this time around. I only followed accounts that served me. I unfollowed news accounts. I had to be very careful about what I watched and things like that. I don't think women realize how important our mental state is. I get very sensitive. Meagan: Yes. So talking about that, protecting your space, our bubble, or whatever it may be. Protecting our space is so important because mentally, like you were saying, I don't know if people really understand how precious our mental space is but mentally, if we are thrown off, it is sometimes really difficult to get back onto that rail. I had a situation on Facebook in a VBAC-supportive group. I've talked about it in the past. I was so excited to announce that I was going to birth outside of the hospital. I also wasn't telling people that I was birthing out of the hospital. I didn't really tell people my plan I thought I could in that group and I wasn't supported. I had to leave that. Sometimes it means leaving groups. Sometimes it means staying off social media. Sometimes it means muting people who may be sharing their opinions or telling people flat-out, “I appreciate you so much but unfortunately, I can't have you in my space,” because mentally, they are not serving you well. Melanie: 100%, yeah. I hate that that happened to you and I know that happens to so many women. It's just so unfortunate and I hate that there is such a stigma with VBAC because if you do the research which people who have really “easy” births don't have a reason to really do the research but if you are like us where we are all very motivated to have a VBAC because we already have this stigma going against us, it's all unwarranted. It's not evidence-based to not be supportive of a VBAC and if you really research and do the stats, you realize that it's not a big deal. The craziest thing that I heard on the Down to Birth Podcast was, “You have a chance of uterine rupture even as a first-time mom.” Meagan: Yes, you do. Melanie: It's not that much higher as a VBAC and first-time moms go their entire pregnancy never once hearing about uterine rupture but yet if you are a VBAC mom, that's all you hear about. So it's so crazy to me. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. So mentally, you were unfollowing. You protected your space there. Is there anything else that you would give tip-wise to protect your mental space?Melanie: I think just believing in your body and believing that we are made to give birth. I think that's a really big one. Of course, like you said, unfollowing and maybe not talking about it with people, unfollowing accounts that do not serve you. I think the most important thing, I know we've heard it a million times on this podcast, but where you give birth and who you give birth with is the single most important thing because you want to be with a provider who believes that you can do it, whoever that is. Yeah, believing in yourself. I think that's going to look different for everybody of what they need. For me, I am a data person so I needed the stats. I needed to read the books and also listen to lots of women who have done it before me. Meagan: Mhmm, love that. Melanie: So okay, here we are. I was 40+5 so again, not 39 weeks with spontaneous labor but 40+5. I woke up at 5:00 AM to what I thought was contractions. I had some Braxton Hicks at the very end which I never experienced before. I didn't know if maybe it was prodromal labor but it didn't feel like Braxton Hicks because it was waking me up. I just tried to move through them a little bit. They were coming very, very sporadically. I would get a short contraction one time an hour and this went on for most of the day and they were not long at all, like 30 seconds. In my mind, I'm thinking, I'm a hopeful first-time vaginal birther. So I'm like, okay. This could be 24 hours. It could be 48 hours. Who knows? But I did not want to waste any energy timing the contractions so I was just guessing the whole day. It was a Sunday. I stayed home with my toddler. Yeah, I should mention that he is 2.5 so I waited about 2.5 years between the two births. So yeah. I just labored at home with my toddler and my husband. We are big track fans so it worked out perfectly. There was a Diamond League track meet on so I did the Miles Circuit while I was watching that. I texted my midwives and kept everybody updated but I think again, we all thought I still had a ton of time. Then I would say around 4:00 PM that day, I started to notice them a little bit more. They were still pretty inconsistent. I would say maybe 8-10 minutes apart and still only 30-45 seconds long. That was something I learned from again, that Bradley Method book I read is that productive contractions for most women– I will say not for me. We will get into that. But for most women, they are a minute plus. Those are the most productive contractions. I texted my midwife then that I felt like it would likely be that night. I felt pretty confident that they were coming but I was like, it could be the middle of the night. It could be tomorrow morning. Who knows. She texted back and she advised that I take some magnesium, take an Epsom salt bath and then go to bed and try to reserve my energy for when they are 4-1-1. We had a birth photographer this time so I texted the birth photographer. I texted our friends who I'm so grateful for. We had a neighbor and a friend who was going to come to our house and be with my toddler. So, so sweet. Yeah. I took the magnesium and then my husband, Brandon, drew me a bath and then disappeared with our toddler. I sat in the bath and I was reading my affirmation cards. This makes me so emotional but I discovered that my husband had snuck in his own affirmation cards into my pile and that's when I found them. Oh, it was so sweet. Meagan: That's adorable. Melanie: I know. It still makes me cry when I think about it because it just meant so much. It makes me so emotional. It was super sweet and one of the best things he's ever done for me. I found those and was reading through them in the bath and just trying to relax and really work with the contractions. I know from my research that you need to relax. To get them to be productive contractions, you have to relax. You have to get your body out of the way and it will go faster that way. They really started to ramp up when my husband was putting our toddler to bed around 7:30. I got in the bed and I put the pregnancy pillow in between my legs. I lay there and was trying to establish a pattern. Yeah. I know manifestation sounds pretty woo-woo but I want to say and this is where I'll start sprinkling these in because there were 10 things that I had manifested or really, really prayed would happen and I was very intentional that I really, really hoped that this happened. This was the first one. I don't know why I had envisioned laboring with my dog. You have a dog. You understand. My dog is my firstborn. She is my baby. I love her. You know, birth is so primal so I was just like, She's going to know. She's going to know when I'm in labor and she's going to know what to do. She did. She followed me. I didn't even realize it at the time. She followed me in my bed and I took a picture with her at 8:19. She was lying next to me on the bed as I was going through these contractions and it's a very, very special memory for me. I was already starting to get the labor shakes at this point. It's 7:30 and laying down in bed did really help to establish more of a pattern but they still were not a minute long. They were 40-50 seconds long. Then I moved to the toilet as many women do at this point, backward on the toilet. I lost more of my mucus plug because I had lost it sometime earlier in the day then at some point, I looked down and realized that I was having my bloody show. Again, none of this I had ever experienced before with my first. My husband was an absolute rockstar in this moment. He was so cute. He was running back and forth between the toilet and then packing up the car because I think he realized it was starting to get pretty serious. He brought me water and he put on the back of the toilet, cleaned it, gummy worms and things. That was not what I wanted at that moment but it was super cute. Oh, and I should mention that I did not have a doula so he was kind of like my doula. I was trying to prepare him as best as I could beforehand but he didn't need it. He did really well. I know the hip squeezes are great and I learned that from this show of course. As they were coming, I would scream at him, “Hip squeezes! Hip squeezes!” He would come over and do it and he did awesome. He was saying that I left my body in this moment and I was possessed because when I was having a contraction, again, I was trying to do the deep moans and really trying to relax but it's just funny. He was telling me about it after and he was like, “Yeah, it was like if you were looking at it from the outside, it's like you were possessed then you would scream at me and just moan.”Then by 9:24, they were coming. I mentioned they were not a minute long, but they were coming on top of each other. So every 2.5-3.5 minutes apart, but still not quite a minute long so my husband was calling the midwives and she still was like, “Well, they're not quite a minute. Just have her keep laboring at home until they are a minute.” Eventually, he called her back and I think he put it on speaker so she could hear me and that's what did it. Meagan: Uh-huh. She's like, “Load her up.” Melanie: Yes. Because we live outside of Dallas. The birth center was in downtown Dallas so it's pretty far. It's usually a 45-minute drive for us so I think my husband was just like, “I don't want to have a car baby.” Meagan: Sure. Melanie: Yeah. It was ramping up. So yeah. She called back. I mentioned the Freya app. I really relied heavily on the Freya app because when you are timing the contractions, it helps you with the breathing, in for 4, out for 8, and then one of the mantras I learned from that Hypnobirthing book that I did not know I was going to rely on so much– and I think you never really know when you're going into it and when you're in labor. You never know what's going to stick. My mantra that I must have repeated to myself 500 times was, Inhale peace, exhale tension. Every single contraction, I just repeated that over and over and over. I was trying to make it until 10:30 PM when we called them again, but that's when we got in the car and started heading there. He made it to the birth center in 33 minutes. The car ride was not fun like many women talk about. I think I hardly opened my eyes and I was just timing them, repeating my mantra, Inhale peace, exhale tension. I arrived at the birth center at 11:00 PM. I had a contraction on the step right there as I was trying to get out of the car and trying to make it. I eventually made it inside and I had my first cervical check of the whole pregnancy. I again, something I had manifested was that my two favorite midwives would be there and they were. One of them, she wasn't even on call but she came anyway. So many sweet things happened. I got on my back. She asked if she could check me and I was like, “Yes. I really want to know.” One thing again, I manifested that I really wanted to be at least a 6 when I showed up. The first thing she said was, “You are much farther along than you ever were with Rhett.” You are a 7 and you are very stretchy. I can feel your bulgy back of waters and the baby's head is right behind it. That's the other thing. We mentioned PROM. Here I am and my water still had not burst and it was amazing. Being on my back felt awful by the way. That's why I just don't understand. Being unmedicated in a hospital must be so, so hard because I know a lot of the times they want you to be on your back and I just can't imagine because that was the worst position ever. She started filling up the tub right away. Like many women, I was like, “I have to poop.” I get on the toilet and I was like, “I swear I do.” But no, I don't. Nothing was happening but it feels like I do. I got in the tub right away. I did a couple of contractions. They were still coming on top of each other. I was sitting down and eventually, I moved to hands and knees. Very shortly after, that was very fast. That was only about 5 minutes after getting checked. Very shortly after, my body was starting to push and I was like, “This can't.” I mentioned something. I don't really remember this but I mentioned something to my midwife about how it seemed to soon to push. I was like, “You just checked me and I was a 7-8. Why is my body pushing right now?” I was really wary of a cervical lip or a swollen lip which I learned from this podcast. I can't remember exactly but she said something to the nature of, “If your body is ready to push, let it push. This is your body getting ready to birth your baby,” which is again, something else I had really, really envisioned. I would have loved my body to do the pushing and it did which was amazing. My water had not broken still at this point and the really cool moment was that the baby was en caul for a while. I remember her saying something on the phone about baby being en caul. I was birthing the sac before I birthed the baby. It felt like a water balloon. She kept telling me, “Feel down. Feel the sac.” It felt like a water balloon coming out of you. It was so weird. Yeah, my midwife stayed behind me so quietly the whole time. I never knew she was there. My husband set up my birth playlist and music and he just was such a rockstar in this moment. He was getting a cold rag and putting it over my shoulders which felt amazing, getting water and electrolytes and continuing to help me with that. Yeah. My body pushed for about 30 minutes and I don't want to scare anybody, but truly, that was the worst part. I remember– I guess maybe it's the ring of fire, but I just remember feeling like my body was ripping in half. But then it goes away. Meagan: Yeah. It's intense. It's intense. Melanie: It's so intense. I don't think anything can really prepare you for that. I follow that account, Pain-Free Birth. I don't understand and I would watch videos of women who were smiling and they look great. I'm like, oh my gosh. That part was so, so painful. Handling and dealing with the contractions is one thing and I felt like I was really strong. I felt like I did a good job with that, but that pushing part is something else. His head was out. It was a boy. His head was out for a little while but nobody panicked and my husband was ready to catch him. His hand was right there. At some point, I remember my midwife was like, because again, my body was doing all of the pushing. I didn't do any of it. I guess after the head was out of a little bit, she was like, “You can try to push.” My husband told me because his hand was right there that my pushes were nothing. They were baby, tiny little pushes compared to the ones my body was doing. Then at some point, my midwife asked if she could help or something and I was like, “Yes, please.” I don't know what she did. My baby was kind of big which I'll say in a second, but I think maybe his shoulder was stuck or something. She did something that was pretty painful but then within a second–Meagan: A sweep. Melanie: Yeah, like a maneuver because I definitely felt more stretching then a second later, he shot out. He did have the cord wrapped around his neck one time but nobody freaked out and they just literally took it off then he pinked up right away, cried, and he ended up being 9 pounds, 5 ounces. My first was 6 pounds and 14 ounces. I'm like, “No wonder running felt awful. He was pretty big.” I look back and I just feel very proud. I was never once scared for myself. I never once thought about uterine rupture and I never was scared for my baby. I do have some memories of– they did the intermittent checking and I have this memory of the decels. That is why I ended up having the C-section so I was always very curious to see how he was doing during the check. He was always fine and I was never scared. Yeah. We got out of the tub quickly. They waited for me to deliver the placenta on the bed. It was about 30 minutes and yeah. My baby latched right away which was such a relief because I mentioned we had some struggles the first time. The crazy thing was– we sat there. We ate. We chatted for a little bit then once they did all of the newborn tests right there, we were home by 3:45 AM. My toddler went to bed as an only child and then he woke up to a little brother. And that's his story. The postpartum has been so different and it's been so much better. I can't help but think that a lot of that is because of such a smoother birth and the recovery has been so much better than a C-section. Different, but still so much better. Meagan: Yeah. Melanie: Yeah. I just thank this community so much. I also was on the Facebook page and I just got so much strength from all of the women before me. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. Such an incredible story. I love– okay, a couple of things. One, we talk about it on the podcast. I love when people go and look for providers before they are pregnant. I absolutely love it. I think it's very powerful. But two, you were actually pregnant and you didn't know it. Melanie: I know. Meagan: That's so cool that you were doing that and it felt so right and not only was your intuition before pregnancy kicking in but you were actually pregnant and it felt right. You were like, this is the place. This is the place. Then you showed. You went past that 39-week date. You never had gone past 3 centimeters before. So much strength and power happened through all of this and then you pushed out a 9-pound baby. All of these things that a lot of the world doubts. Did you look at your op report? Melanie: I did and everything was normal. Then the main thing was the decels and that's why they said was the reason. Meagan: Decels. I just wondered if they said anything like CPD or failure to progress. Melanie: Yeah, no they didn't. I was looking for that specifically. I just barely made it. I was 2-3 centimeters before the decels started happening and then they called it. Meagan: Yeah. A lot of the time we are told and the world doubts us in so many ways so if you told a lot of people who are uneducated about VBAC the things that happened with the first and then the stats of your second, I bet people are like, “You did that?” But you guys, this is normal. This is beautiful. This is what you deserve. You deserve these experiences and these joyous moments. I'm just so proud of you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your husband. He sounds absolutely adorable. Shoutout to him. Melanie: He's so sweet. Meagan: Your midwives and everybody. You did it. Melanie: Aw, thank you. Meagan: I'm so happy for you. Melanie: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm glad I didn't know how big he was before but also with my midwives, there was no pressure at all to even see how big he was. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Melanie: The second baby, I always say that he healed me because he really did. My first birth was really traumatic for me but then my friends all laugh because they say, “You're the only person who would say a 9-pound baby would heal you.”Meagan: Seriously, though. But how amazing. It's so amazing. Our bodies are incredible. Okay, we talked about PROM. This time, total opposite. Encaul for a little bit. I did some things. You did some things. Let's talk about if you've had PROM, premature rupture of membranes, there are things you could do to try to encourage no PROM next time. I am PROM, PROM, then with my third, I was contracting. My water did break way earlier than pushing but it still waited a little longer. I still feel like my efforts in a lot of ways helped. So anyway, tell us what you did. Melanie: Yes. So mainly two things. Again, being with providers who are more holistic, they are more likely to mention nutrition. We talked about nutrition a ton during the whole pregnancy. I think two main things. The first thing was collagen. They got me on collagen from the get-go. I know research shows that upping your collagen helps a strong sac. Then the second thing was Vitamin C. I didn't take any Vitamin C supplements or anything, but again, your body is amazing. I was craving oranges in my pregnancy so I think that's part of it. My body was craving oranges. I ate a lot of oranges so I think the combination of collagen and oranges really made my sac strong. And it was. It literally did not break until he came out. It was so different. Meagan: So incredible. I would echo that. Vitamin C and you can supplement with Vitamin C 100mg a day starting anywhere between 18-20 weeks. Some providers even say to do it from the very beginning as the placenta is forming and things like that. Collagen absolutely and protein. Protein and collagen. I know you guys have heard about Needed but I absolutely love their protein collagen. As pregnant women, we don't get enough collagen and we don't get enough protein in our daily eating habits so supplementing with that and getting more collagen really, really can create a healthier, thicker sac. Something that was interesting that I found out after my second– so back story. I had kidney stones. I don't know if you had any infections or anything like that with your first that made you be on antibiotics but antibiotics is what an OB told me can also weaken membrane sacs. I got UTIs and kidney stones and was put on antibiotics. The OB described to me that my OB was fighting in other areas so the nutrients that my body was getting was going to fighting and healing versus creating a stronger sac which is interesting. I've never seen any research about it but he was pretty adamant about avoiding antibiotics during pregnancy with my next one and I did. I didn't have what I had before. Melanie: That's interesting. I never heard that. Meagan: I know. I know. This is a doctor who doesn't even practice anymore. This was years ago but I was like, it kind of makes sense. It kind of makes sense. I haven't researched it. Melanie: Yeah. I can see that. Meagan: Antibiotics wipe our gut flora and things like that anyway so I can understand that but protein, collagen, Vitamin C, and possibly avoiding antibiotics. Nutrition is so huge with our bag of water. Then big babies. You guys, big babies come out of vaginas. I just have to say that. It happens. 9 pounds is a healthy, beautiful baby. Melanie: Yeah. When he came out, everybody was very shocked even before weighing him. He's thinned out now but he was swollen. Everybody was taking bets on how big he actually was. Meagan: I love it. I love it. I've seen so many babies when they come out and their cheeks are so squishy and you're like, that's a big baby. You can tell just by their face. Melanie: Yes. That's exactly it. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you again so much for completing the circle, for helping other Women of Strength out there. I too believe that women listen to these podcasts and they want to find stories that are similar with theirs in so many ways. You didn't dilate past 3. An induction that didn't turn out to be a vaginal birth so an “unsuccessful” induction that turned VBAC. A lot of people, I think, do doubt their body in that way. They are like, “Well, I was induced. Not even medicine could get me there,” but there is a lot that goes into that. Sometimes our body is just not ready or our babies aren't ready or something is going on. It doesn't mean that's your fate for all future births. Melanie: 100%. Yeah. So well said. Meagan: Awesome. Well, thank you again so much and huge congrats. Melanie: Thank you so much, Meagan, and thank you to everybody. Everybody who has told their story, the community, and everything was so helpful for me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It's not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It's this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention.”Paige Boran is a certified nurse-midwife from Fort Collins, Colorado. She and her colleague, Jess, practice independently at A Woman's Place. They have rights to deliver babies at the hospital but are not employed through the hospital system so they are not subject to physician oversight. Their patients benefit from a low-intervention environment within a hospital setting but without the restriction of hospital policies.Lily Wyn, our Content Creator and Social Media Admin, joins us today as well! Lily shares why she chose Paige to support her through her current VBAC pregnancy. Lily is a beautiful example of how to diligently interview providers, keep an open mind, process past fears with the provider you choose, and what developing a relationship looks like to create an empowering birthing experience. Paige shows us just how valuable midwifery care can be, especially when going for a VBAC. If you're looking for a truly VBAC-supportive provider, this is a great episode on how to do it! The VBAC Link's VBAC Supportive Provider ListA Woman's PlaceHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Paige: Yeah, so I'm a certified nurse-midwife. I work in northern Colorado in Fort Collins at A Woman's Place. We're a small midwifery-owned practice. Right now, there are just two CNMs. That's the whole practice. It's just me and my colleague, Jess, who owns it which is really cool because we get to push the boundaries because we are not really locked into the hospital system. We are able to catch babies there but we are not actually employed through the bigger hospital systems which is nice because we don't have that physician oversight and stuff like that. I think we are able to do a lot more and honor that midwifery care model which is really cool. Sometimes people feel locked into policies and their overseeing physician and things like that but when it's just two midwives, we get to do what we want and what feels best for the patient. I really like that. That was a big thing when I first got into the certified nurse midwifery world. I was like, where do I want to work? I had offers from bigger hospital systems and it just didn't feel like the right fit so working at a small, privately-owned practice felt like the right answer for me so I was able to practice in a way I felt was right for people. I didn't want to be locked in by a policy and overseeing physicians. I just wanted to grow with other midwives. Meagan: Yes. I love that so much. I don't know. Maybe I should say I know it feels to me– I don't know it as an actual fact, but that feels like a unique situation and a unique setup to me. We don't really have that that I know of here in Utah. We either have out-of-hospital CPMs or we have in-hospital CNMs who are just hospital. I know that one hospital system is trying to do the attached birth center, but it is still very different. They are still the hospital umbrella midwives I guess I could say. So is that unique or is that just something that feels like it?Paige: I think it's unique because where I came from in Florida, if you were a CNM, you 100% practiced in the hospital which we do but it was that you were owned by a larger group of physicians essentially. Florida was working towards independent practice when I was there. Colorado is an independent-practiced state for nurse practitioners which is really cool because we don't have to have that oversight. I don't know if Florida ever got there but I know it varies state to state on if you have to be overseen by a physician or not. Honestly, that's why a lot of people when they are ready to become a midwife, if they don't have independent practice rights as a CNM even if they are a nurse, they will go for a CPM which is a certified professional midwife because they actually have more autonomy to do what they want outside of the hospital because they are not bound by all of the laws and stipulations which is interesting. Meagan: Exactly. I think that's a big thing– the CPM/CNM thing when people are looking for midwives. Do you have any suggestions about CPM versus CNM? If a VBAC mom is looking at a CPM, is that a safe and reasonable option?Paige: Absolutely. Yes. I think CPMs and CNMs are both reasonable, safe options. They both have training in that. They both can honor your holistic journey. I would say the biggest thing is who you feel most connected to because I think trusting your team, you will have people who have the worst birthing outcome and horrible stories but they are like, “I look back and I feel so good about it because I trusted my team.” I think that is what's important. If a CPM seems like your person and that's who you are going to trust, then that's who you should go for whereas a CNM, if that seems like that's your person and who you trust, I think that would be a good route too. I think a lot of people think, “Oh, they do home births. They must catch babies in a barn and there is no regulation. Even sometimes when I say, “midwife,” people are like, “What? Do you dress like a nun and catch babies in a barn?”Meagan: Yes, this is real though. These are real thoughts. If you are listening, and not to make fun of you if you think this, this is a real thing. This is a myth surrounding midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwives where a lot of people think a lot of different things. Paige: Absolutely. Meagan: I think I had a chicken chaser or something where a dad was like, “Do you chase chickens?” I was like, “What?” He said, “Well, that's what the midwives do so that's what the doulas do.” I'm like, “What? No, we don't chase chickens.” Paige: That is such old-school thinking but realistically, midwives started in the home and that was their history. It's cool that they've been able to step into the hospital and bring some of that back into the hospital because I think that is needed. Meagan: It is needed, yeah. Paige: We are starting to see that physicians are starting to be a little bit more holistic and see things in the whole picture, but I'm glad that the midwives did step into the hospital because I think that needed to be there but I'm so glad that people are still doing it at home because I think that is such a good option for people. Meagan: Yeah, so talking abou the midwives in the hospital, a lot of people are talking about how they are overseen by OBs. Is this common? Does this happen where you are at? You kind of said you are separated but do the hospital midwives in your area or in most areas, are they always overseen by OBs? Paige: Not necessarily. It would vary state to state and hospital to hospital. We actually just got privileges and admitting privileges a couple of years ago. Actually, my boss, Jess, who owns the practice where I work, had worked in Denver where they were allowed to admit their patients and everything. They didn't have to have any physician oversight but when she was there, she had to have physician oversight. She was like, “It's an hour drive north, why would that make a difference?” It was the same hospital system so she fought when she bought the practice and the physician who owned it prior left, she was alone and she had to have that physician oversight so she fought for independent practice privileges and she got it. Some of the midwives at first weren't so happy about it because they had liked being overseen by the doctor and someone signing off on all of their things. Some of the midwives were like, “Finally. We should be able to practice independently.” It's going to vary at each place. But I think that's a good thing to ask, “If something is going wrong, will a physician just come unannounced into my room in the hospital?” That's not the case with ours. We have to invite them in and if we are inviting them in, we've probably had a conversation multiple times with the patient where it's like, we need to have this. Meagan: Yeah. For the patients who do have the oversight of the OBs, do you have any suggestions? I feel like sometimes, at least here in Utah with my own doula clients when we have that situation, it can get a little confusing and hard when we've got an OB over here saying one thing but then we've got a midwife saying another. For instance with a VBAC candidate, “Oh, you really have a lower chance of having a VBAC. I'll support it. I'll sign off, but you have a really low chance,” but then the midwife is like, “Don't worry about that. You actually have a great chance. It is totally possible.” It gets confusing. Paige: Yeah, and it's like, who do you trust in that scenario? I think that's where evidence comes in because I think midwives and physicians both practice evidence-based but some people may have newer evidence than others. I've worked with OBs who probably roll over in their grave when I say certain things because it wasn't the old way but it is the new way. If somebody can come in with their own evidence and they're like, “I've looked into this and I think I'm a good candidate for x, y, and z,” I think physicians respond well to that because they are like, “Okay, they've done their research. Maybe I need to do some research.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: When they have that thought, they know that this is an educated person and I can't just say whatever I want and they're going to take my word as the Holy Bible. Meagan: Yeah. No, really. Exactly. It always comes down to education and the more information we can have in our toolbelt or in our toolbox or whatever it may be, it's powerful so I love that you point that out. I think it's also important to note that if you do have two providers saying different things, that it's okay to ask for that evidence. “Hey, you had mentioned this. Can you tell me where you got that from or why you are saying that?” Then you can discuss that with your other provider. Paige: Yeah, and following intuition too. I think you can have all of the evidence in the world. What is your gut telling you too? Who do you trust more and what feels right in your body in the moment? I think we are all experts of our own bodies and there's a lot that goes into a VBAC and stuff like that. It's more than just the evidence. People have to feel mentally and physically ready for it too. I wish more people focused sometimes on the mental and spiritual aspect of it because I think a lot of people get ready physically but maybe mentally they weren't prepared for the emotional switch there. Meagan: Totally. Thinking about that, Paige, I mean Lily, tell us a little bit about why you went the midwifery route. I know you really wanted to find the right provider. Lily: Yeah. So I think for me, I have always been drawn to midwifery care. I was a little bit of a birth nerd prior to even working for The VBAC Link or even having my own kiddos. Prior to my son, we had a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy so I experienced OB care with my ectopic. I was bounced around a lot in a practice and had OBs who were great and equally some OBs where it was such a rushed visit that I had an OB miss an infection in my incisions because my pain was dismissed and just some really tough stuff. When it came to getting our rainbow rainbow baby, I was like, I really don't want to be in a hospital at all. I want midwives. That's the route that we went. The very brief story of my son is that he flipped breech 44 hours into labor and that's when we legally had to transfer to the hospital and I had my Cesarean. So in planning my VBAC, I planned to go back to the birth center and was a little devastated when it was out of our financial means this time. I was so panicked. I remember texting you, Meagan, and being like, “What do I do? I can't be at the birth center anymore and I don't want to be in a hospital.” We interviewed another birth center that's about an hour away that is in network with our insurance and talk about trusting your gut, it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel warm and fuzzy. Those are the feelings I got with our first birth center. I loved them so much and I still do. Then I met with Paige and her practice partner, Jess, and I came in loaded to the teeth. I was prepared to fight with someone because that's what I had in my brain and that's what I expected. I sat down with them. They met me after hours after clinic. I sat down with my three pages of questions and by the way, if you are listening and you have questions, we have a great blog on it and some social media posts of the questions that I specifically used. We talked for over an hour and every question I asked, they just had the ultimate answer to. I felt so at peace after talking with both of them and I remember telling my husband going into it, “I'm really worried that I'm going to like these people because I don't want to deliver at a hospital and then I'm going to have to choose a far away birth center that is out-of-hospital or providers that I like but it's a hospital.” It just feels like everything has been serendipitous for us. Our hospital opened a low-intervention portion of their birth floor so I'll still get to have the birth tub and all of the things, but truly have just been blow away by Paige and have just buddied up. She's dealt with all of my anxiety in pregnancy and VBAC and all of my questions. It just feels like such holistic care compared to my experience with OBs in the past. Meagan: That is so amazing and I was actually going to ask how has your care been during this pregnancy? It sounds like it's just been absolutely incredible and exactly what you needed. I remember you texting me and feeling that, oh crap. I don't know what to do. What do I do? You know? I just think it's so great that you have found Paige. Did you say that Jess is your partner? Paige: Yes. Meagan: Jess, yeah. I'm so glad that you found them because it really does sound like you are exactly where you need to be. Lily: Yeah. It made a huge difference for me and I just tell Paige all the time I truly didn't know that care in a hospital setting could look the way that it does. I feel like I'm getting– I experienced birth center care. I had an out-of-hospital experience until we transferred and I can say with confidence that my care has been the same if not better with Paige and just having the conversations and the good stuff and feeling really safe and confident. One thing that they pointed out that I thought was great when I went in and asked all of my questions is that Jess looked at me and she was like, “Okay, it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety around hospital transfer.” And I did. With my son, that was my worst fear and it came true. I had a lot of anxious, what if I have to transfer? She was like, “The thing is there is no transferring. We can induce you if you need to be induced and we can come with you into the OR with your Cesarean if that ever happened to be another thing.” For me, that brought a lot of peace to know that no matter what, the provider that I know and feel comfortable with is going to be with me. I again, didn't expect to feel that way, but it's been a really great reassurance for me personally. Meagan: Yeah. It's the same with a doula. Knowing that there's someone in your corner that you know who you've established care with who can follow you to your birth with you in your journey is just so comforting. So Paige, I wanted to talk about midwifery care and also just lowering the chance of Cesarean. Sometimes people do choose midwifery care specifically because they are like, “I think I have a lower chance of a Cesarean if I go the midwifery route.” Can we talk to that a little bit?Paige: Yes, that's true. A lot of people know that there are benefits to midwives but I think when people think of midwives, it's just like, “Oh, it's just a better experience. I trust my team more.” That's definitely there. There have been studies and people felt more at peace and empowered through their birthing journeys with midwives than they did with OBs. It's been studied but there is also a decrease in C-section risk. Your C-section risk drops 30-40% when you have a midwife which I think is a pretty significant drop. Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Yeah, especially when we look at the United States at our birthing outcomes and birthing mortality and C-section rates, it is way too high for as developed of a country as we are. I think that's really where midwifery care is stepping in and starting to help lower those rates to get it down to where it should be. The World Health Organization has been nominating and promoting midwifery care because it really is the answer to how we get these C-section rates lowered and these bad outcomes lowered. Midwives also have lower chance of an operative vaginal birth. That would be with forceps or a vacuum or an episiotomy so lower chances of those things as well. Lower chance of preterm birth which is interesting and probably because one, we do take lower-risk people. I think that's true but also because we are looking at it holistically. We are looking at everything. We are not just looking at you as a sick person. A lot of people look at pregnancy as an illness and pregnancy is not an illness. It's just a natural part of life and we've got to look at the whole picture of life if we're just going to look at the one thing too. I think that helps to reduce preterm birth risk. We also have lower interventions just overall. We're more in tune with people's bodies and we want to honor what their bodies are meant to do. Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It's not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It's this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention. The midwifery model is so important. I think when you go to the traditional medical model, you look at the present illness so they see pregnancy as an illness. What can go wrong? Don't get me wrong. There are a sleu of things that can go wrong in pregnancy and you do have to watch for them. But I think with midwifery care, you know when to use your hands but you also know when to sit on them. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I feel like we need– we used to get quotes from our podcast episodes and turn them into t-shirts and I feel like that is a t-shirt podcast quote-worthy. Oh my gosh. It's a worthy quote. That is amazing and it's so true though. Paige: It is. Meagan: It's not to rag on OBs. You guys, OBs are amazing. They are wonderful. They do an amazing job. We love the. But there is something different with midwifery care. You mentioned preterm birth. I remember when I was going through my interview process to have my VBAC after two C-section baby and I finally established care mid-pregnancy because I switched. That was one of the things in the very beginning that my midwife was like, “Let's talk about things. Let's talk about nutrition. Let's talk about supplements. Let's talk about where you are at.” It was just honing in on that which I was surprised by because I figured she'd be like, “Let's talk about your history. Let's talk about this,” but it was like, “No. Let's talk about what we can do to make sure you have the healthiest pregnancy,” but also started commentingo n mental stuff. It helped me get healthy in my mind. I just would never have had that experience with OB where they wanted to learn what I was scared about and what I was feeling and all of those things. Not only was I learning how to nourish myself physically, but mentally and it was just a really big deal. I do feel like it played a big impact in my labor. Paige: Yeah. A lot of people discredit how much nutrition and debunking fears and stuff like that can go because I think a lot of that– I mean, we look at nutrition-wise and we could avoid almost all of preeclampsia with nutrition alone which is incredible. I'm like, “I really think you should read Real Food for Pregnancy and people are like, “Oh, but it's such a big book,” and I'm like, “But it's so important to know this information about what we should be putting in our bodies.” 100 grams of protein– you've already got it. Meagan: I want to see how many pages for it. It's got, okay. We've got 300 pages but it has recipes and all of these amazing things in the end so it's not even a full book. Paige: Yes. People are like, “Oh man, I don't know if I want to read the whole thing,” but I'm like, “It's so important.” I think when people do read it, they come back and are like, “Did you know that I could decrease my risk of this if I ate more Vitamin A?” I'm like, “Yes. That's why I wanted you to read this book.” It is a wealth of information and I have such healthier pregnancy outcomes when people follow that high protein diet and looking at micronutrients with their Vitamin A, their choline, and all sorts of things. Meagan: Yeah. All of the things that we talk about a lot here on the podcast because we are partnered with Needed and we love them so much because we talk about the choline and the Vitamin A and the Vitamin B's and the Vitamin D's. Lily Nichols, not this Lily on the podcast today, she also wrote Real Food for Gestational Diabetes and that's another really powerful book as well. But yeah. It's just hard because OBs don't tend to have the time. I think some OBs would actually love the time to sit down and dig deep into this but they don't have the time either. I do think that's a big difference between OBs and midwives. What does your standard prenatal look like? When a mom comes in, a patient comes in, what do you guys do through a visit? Paige: Yeah. We follow the standard what everywhere in America does like once a month roughly in the first trimester and second trimester then when you hit 28 weeks, every 2 weeks, and then when you hit 36 weeks, every week. If you go to 41, we'll see you twice in that week. We follow those stipulations but our appointments are a little bit longer. When you are in a big practice, a lot of time it's driven by RVU use so the more patients somebody can see, the more they are going to get paid and the bigger their bonus is at the end of year. A lot of people feel like they are running through the cattle herd and they've been in and out in 15 minutes if that. At my practice, it's a little bit different because we are not RVU based. We're not getting any bonus. We're not trying to see as many patients as we can. Will we ever be the richest at what we do? No, but that's okay with me and Jess. We are small on purpose and we love to take the time. At Lily's appointments, we always book her for at least 30 minutes because we know that me and her like to talk. We've done an hour for some people because we know there is always going to be that long conversation. Don't get me wrong though, that fourth mom whose had three vaginal births and going for her fourth, she may be like, “Paige, there's really nothing to talk about today and that's okay.” Sometimes they are 15 minutes. Sometimes they are 30. Sometimes they are an hour. Our first appointment is always an hour because there is just so much to dive into with how we can be preparing ourselves, what does your history look like especially if they are brand new to our practice and we've never met them before, starting to build that relationship early on. It just depends on how far along they are, who the person is, and those things. But I do like that I can spend as much time as I need. Sometimes I tell my people, “Bring a book because I tend to get behind because I tend to talk to people longer than I book for,” but that's okay. We know that we can do that because we are a smaller practice. I think when people are thinking about what kind of care they want, they should probably consider how are these people paid? Is it by how many they can see in a day? Because you're probably going to get a different level of care than a practice that isn't drive by those RVUs. Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like my shortest visit with my midwife was 20 minutes. Paige: Yeah. Lily: Yeah. Meagan: Which to me is pretty dang long because when I was going with my other two daughters, I think it was probably 6-7 minutes if that with my provider. I mean, it was get in. My nurse would check my fundal height and all of that and then oh, the doctor will be in here. Then came in, quick out. Yeah. It is really, really different. Lily: I know for me too, I love that we don't just talk about nutrition and things like that but even in my last appointment, I was talking with Paige about the things that can be triggering coming back into labor and going back into a hospital so my ectopic pregnancy was at the hospital that I'll be delivering at and I had to go into the emergency room and the way that you go to labor and delivery after hours is through the ER so Paige and I were talking. She was like, “I can just meet you outside. We will badge you in and we will avoid the emergency room if that feels triggering.” It's just those things that you don't get with an OB necessarily to talk through tiny little triggers. They are probably generally less accommodating to those little things of, “Well that's just the standard. You're going to have to get over that and just go through the ED and come on up.” I think that's been huge. I also have a dear friend who is going to school to be an OB. I told Paige at my last appointment that she may possibly be at my birth. She's my crunchy friend so she'll be a great OB but I have such a desire to be like, “Come see a VBAC. Come see it so that you have it in your brain and you know that they can be safe and look at what can be done,” so I think that is so huge too as we continue to train and uplift our next generation of providers. What does that look like to show them? I think her internship or something is going to be a midwife and OB partnership practice which is really cool but I'm like, “Yes. Come. Come to my birth. Please. I want you to see all the things.” That's really cool too and that Paige is open to, “My friend might be there.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Bring whoever. Meagan: I love that. I love that you were pointing out too this next generation of providers. Let's see that birth and VBAC is actually very normal and very possible because there's a lot of people who have maybe seen trauma or an unfortunate situation which could have happened because we blasted them with interventions or could have happened out of a fluke thing. You don't know all of the time. But I do think if we can keep trying to get these providers, these new provider to see a different light, we will also see that Cesarean rate drop a little bit. We really, I always tell people that we have a problem. They're like, “It's really not that big of a deal.” I'm like, “No, it's a very big deal. It's a very, very big deal. We have a problem in this medical world.” I do believe that it needs to change and midwifery care is definitely going to impact that. I hope that what you were saying in the beginning how policies don't trump a lot of the midwives. I wanted to ask you. This isn't something we talked about, but is it possible to ask your midwife, “Hey, what policies do you lie under?” Is that appropriate? Paige: Yes. Actually, that was one of my favorite things when Lily came in to meet and greet us. She came and she was like, “What are the policies for a VBAC?” We dove into that. We've been diving into that and what are we going to be okay with and what are we not going to be okay with? That's the beauty is that I'm not employed by the larger hospital system that I work under so I feel like a policy is not a law. I feel like there is informed consent and I think informed consent is so important but at the same time, there is informed declination and you should be able to decline anything. That's true. We can never force anybody into surgery. We can never force anybody into anything. I think a lot of people aren't having those conversations where it's actually informed so then people are like, “Oh, they are just refusing everything.” I hate the word refuse because no, they are not refusing it. They are declining it because they are informed. They know the risk. They have all the information at their fingertips and they know that this is the best decision for them and their baby and we have to honor that. That's why I'm really glad that I'm able to practice in that way, but I do know I've met and I've worked with people who feel like they are boxed in and have to follow those policies. We've started to talk about what our policies are with TOLACs and VBACs and things like that. One of them is that they are supposed to have two IVs. I've already gone against that before and I've had a beautiful, unmedicated VBAC. She walked in. I said, “We've talked about it. She was also laboring outside when we talked about it. It's not an issue when you come in. You know what? When we get up there, I'm just going to tell them that you know why they recommend two IVs and you are declining.” She walks in and she's clearly going to have this baby within the hour. I told the nurse, “We're not doing the IVs. We've talked about it. We're going to decline them.” That was the end of the discussion. We didn't have to talk about it again which was nice. She shouldn't have had to advocate in that moment for herself. We've already had those conversations. Meagan: Yes. Paige: Another one is continuous monitoring and the whole idea is if you start to rupture, that's how we are going to catch it. The baby is going to tank and that's how we are going to save the baby's life. Don't get me wrong. I think continuous monitoring can be really valuable for a lot of things but it's actually not evidence-based. We have not improved neonatal outcomes with continuous fetal monitoring. We've talked about that with Lily and she's going to opt for intermittent oscillation and I think that's very appropriate because she plans to go unmedicated. Let's be honest, if you are unmedicated and your uterus starts to rupture, moms will tell me that something is not right. This is beyond labor. Her saying that and being aware of that, we would notice it a lot sooner than we would the baby tanking kind of thing. Meagan: Yeah. I do know that with uterine rupture, we can have decelerations but like you were saying, there's usually so many other signs before baby is actually even struggling and I know a couple of uterine rupture stories where providers didn't believe the mom that something was going on because that one thing wasn't happening. The baby wasn't struggling. Paige: Yes. Meagan: It's like, you guys! When it comes to continuous fetal monitoring in the hospital, people have to fight to have that intermittent. It's yeah. Anyway. These policies are not law. I love that you said that too. There's another t-shirt quote. Paige: I think people should start asking if they are planning a VBAC, start asking what is the policy and start thinking, is that what they want? I do have some moms who are like, “No, I want the two IVs because it's hard for me to get a stick,” and they need that backup in case. That makes them feel more at peace but other people are like, “It makes me feel like a patient. I don't like it.” People don't like needles and that's okay. They have that right to say no. I tell people that in a true emergency, we will get an IV in you if something really, really bad were to be happening. That's part of training if somebody walks in off the street. We're not going to be like, “Oh, when was the last time you ate? Sorry, you can't have the surgery.” We know something bad is happening right now. We will get the IVs. We will do all of the things. Getting the IVs really won't save as much time as people think it will. Meagan: Yeah, and there are other things. Say we are having our baby and we are having higher blood loss than we would like or we have some concern of some hemorrhaging, there are other things that we can do. We can put Pitocin in a leg. We can do Cytotec rectally. There are things that we can do. We can get that baby to our breast and start stimulating and try to help that way. There are things that we can do while we are waiting for an IV, right? Paige: Yes. I tell people that all the time. Most of the postpartum hemorrhage meds that we use can be given without an IV. There is only one that truly has to be given through an IV and that's TXA but the rest can all be given other routes. A lot of times, those work better than IV Pitocin. Sometimes the ion Pitocin works better. Sometimes the ion Methergine works better. It's not this, oh we have to have a little just in case kind of thing because if there was a just in case moment, yes. We can be working on the IV and doing other things. I have to be kind of secretive about it. I have tinctures and stuff with shepherd's purse and yarrow. Those things actually have great evidence. They are really helpful for postpartum blood loss. I have a lot of moms who are more interested in doing something more holistic and natural before they try medication. Cypress essential oil, you can rub that in. I'll have doulas use my cypress roller and give them a massage while I'm trying to manage the hemorrhage and that cypress oil can help a lot too. Sometimes going back to our instinctual, old medicine that we have been using well before medicine was used for birth. Meagan: Yeah. This is a random question for both of you. Lil, I really wonder if you have seen it or heard about this too because you are so heavily in our DMs. This is going to be weird. People are going to be like, what? But I did this. We did this because we weren't sure. We cut the umbilical cord and put it in our mouth. It's really weird. Paige is like, what? You put it down in the gum area like in between your teeth and your cheek. It sits there. Okay, you guys. I've seen it just a couple of times, myself included. Yes, I put my umbilical cord in my mouth. Yes, it's weird. Paige: That's okay. Meagan: It felt like a little gummy. It was fine. I wasn't chewing on it. It was just sitting there. But anyway, it's weird but with my other client too we did it and all of her hemorrhaging symptoms just went away. Paige: That's cool. Meagan: I know this is really random but we just cut a little piece of our umbilical cord and put it in their mouth. Paige: That's so interesting. So a piece of the umbilical cord or the entire thing once it's clamped and cut and still attached? Meagan: They clamped and cut it, cut a piece, and put it in my mouth. Paige: I would be so willing to try that. I mean, what is there in that nun? Meagan: I don't know. I don't know, but it did diminish the hemorrhaging symptoms. Paige: Cool. Meagan: So very interesting, right? Okay, so are midwives restricted when it comes to VBAC on what they can accept? Lily, you are a VBAC. I was a VBAC after two C-sections. You can obviously take Lily. Could you accept me?Paige: Yes. Luckily in midwifery care, at least in Colorado, there is a lot of gray for certified nurse midwives. It's not always black and white. VBACs are okay but there is no direct, “Oh, if you have this many C-sections, we can't do it.” I think that's because ACOG also strangely doesn't have an opinion on that. They actually agree. There is limited evidence beyond one C-section. My practice has done several VBACs after two Cesareans. I don't think we've ever done one for a third or greater than two probably because I think those people a lot of times don't even consider VBAC and they just already have been seeing their doctor for their repeat C-section with each pregnancy. But I'd love to see more people going for a VBAC after multiple Cesareans because I think VBACs after two Cesareans have a whole different level of feeling empowered after that. I thin that's really cool and even special scars and stuff, there is really limited evidence on all of these things and I'd like to see more people pushing the limits a little bit. Especially since I am in a hospital, I do have an OB hospitalist on call 24/7 at the disposal of my fingertips if I need them. We are close to an OR so I think if for somebody the fear is there and they are like, “I just don't know if it's more risky because of this,” I think it's worth it to try because the more people who go for it and are successful, the better evidence we're going to get from it. Meagan: Yeah. That is exactly what I am thinking. There's not a lot of evidence after two Cesareans because it's just not happening. It hasn't really been studied and a lot of that is because people aren't even given the option. Paige: Yeah. I'll have people where it is their third or fourth C-section and they were never even given that option. They were told, “Oh, I was told I have CPD.” I'm like, “The chances of you actually having CPD are low.” Then you look at their records and it was fetal distress or something like that. Yeah. CPD is so rare. I've heard it so many times. “Baby is never going to come out of that pelvis ever.” That breaks my heart every time I hear it because there are times when I'm like, I don't know and then an 8-pound baby comes out. We can't go off of those things because the body does what it's supposed to in those moments. Don't get me wrong. Things do go wrong and C-sections do happen sometimes but yeah. To hear everybody has CPD just because they've had three C-sections, I'm like, I don't know. That would be quite a few people. Way more than we know are true. Meagan: Yeah. We're all walking around with tiny pelvises. That's just what everyone thinks anyway.Lily, being in our DMs, hearing the podcast, understanding and seeing so many of these people and what they say, do you have any advice for them when they are looking for their provider or just any advice in general? Do you have any advice from a VBAC-prepping mom? Lily: Yeah, I think for me, it is to go into it open-handed. I think we hear so many horror stories about providers often and I think that's why I went into looking for a provider with both fists up ready to fight and what has surprised me the most is just I think I said earlier that I didn't know hospital care could look like this. I remember we even posted something and I had posted on The VBAC Link that a hospital birth can be equally as beautiful as an out-of-hospital birth and there were people arguing and people saying, “No, absolutely that's not possible. That's not a thing.” Gosh, how discouraging if we go into things thinking that we can't have beautiful outcomes in different settings. Certainly, there are areas around our country that need improvement. There's not a low-intervention floor at every hospital and there are not midwives who are doing what Paige is doing everywhere but I think the more that we seek out that care and look for that care and advocate for that care, the more we will see it. As much as it sucks that we have to be our advocates, it's also a really cool opportunity that we pave the way for VBAC moms and the moms who have never had a C-section that we are paving the way for care that doesn't end up in a Cesarean. I would just say to be open-handed and yes. You can be prepared to fight and you can be prepared with your statistics. Be prepared to ask the why behind questions, but ultimately, I think that care can be so much more than we expected if we go into it thinking, Gosh, well what can I get out of this and how can I make these things happen? Like Paige said, we've had lots of conversations around, Well, this is the policy, but the policy is not the law. I'm here to support you in that. At our last appointment, she was like, “Hey, make sure you bring your doula to your appointment where we are going to talk about your birth plan because I want to make sure that she is there, that we all hear each other, that we are on the same page.” I think that's helpful too. And then having a doula. My doula was my doula with my C-section. She was with us. She was whoever was on call at the birth center actually and again, I think it was so serendipitous because she is a VBAC mom. I think I needed her then and I'm so stoked to have her now that she is just a really special human who I know is also always in my corner and constantly texting her like, “Oh my gosh, look at the new birth rooms. Oh my gosh, I had this great conversation. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.” I think having your doula there to be your partner in advocacy is really helpful too. Meagan: Yes. Okay, that's a good question too when it comes to doulas and midwives. Sometimes I think people think that if I'm hiring a midwife, I don't need a doula and then we of course know that a lot of people just mistake doulas and midwives together. But Paige, how do you feel about doula care and working with doula care? Is it necessary? How do you work together as doula and midwife?Paige: Yes. I love doulas. I wish everybody had access to a doula truly because doulas, just like midwives, have been studied and they have better birth outcomes, more empowered births, and all of the things. Doulas are so important and doulas and midwives work really closely. I think a doula is there with that constant presence, that constant helping with anything and a really good advocate which I think is important especially if you don't have a good relationship with your provider maybe or you don't know who you're going to get. Maybe you see 7 different providers and you get who you're going to get when you're in labor. So to have that doula there to constantly be advocating for you is such an important piece. Yeah, I really wish everybody could have access to a doula because it just makes a world of difference. I can't think of any bad outcomes I've ever had when a doula was present. It's just a different level of care. Usually, people who have sought out a doula have also taken the time to seek out and do all of the things that are going to make a healthier pregnancy and a better birthing outcome. It's why I think everybody deserves doula care. It's because it does lead to better outcomes. Midwives are always known to work closely with doulas and really support them. It's a team effort. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. We love our relationships with our midwives here. It's really great to just know how we work and know how we need to support the client and it is sometimes hard when we go to a hospital and we don't know who we are getting. And sometimes that OB or that midwife we have worked with before and sometimes it's a whole new face so it does bring us comfort to know that the client and the family know us and we know them and we can all work together. I love that. Okay, do either of you guys have anything else that you would like to say to our beautiful VBAC community before we go? Paige: I don't think so. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful and I just hope that everybody who is thinking about a VBAC really does their research and looks for the best provider and really finds that perfect fit because there are so many good providers out there– OBs, midwives, professional midwives, all the things. Meagan: I agree. It's okay to interview multiple people. It's also okay that if mid-pregnancy, the end of pregnancy, during, and even in labor that if something is not feeling right, you can request a different provider. You can go out and start interviewing again and find that provider that is right for you. Paige: Yes. Meagan: Well, thank you Paige and Lily for joining us today, and thank you so much for doing so much in your community. I really love your setup and hope that we can see that type of setup happening in the US because it just feels perfect in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yes. I'm loving it. Okay, ladies. Well, thank you so much. Paige: Thank you. Lily: Yeah, thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Bye. Lily: Bye!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Denise DeRosa is a Pediatric Physical Therapist from New York City. She had two Cesareans and was confident that those would be her only birth stories. But when she unexpectedly became pregnant with her third, Denise started looking into her options. She researched VBAC, found The VBAC Link, and felt that she could have a VBA2C. Having worked in the hospital where she planned to give birth, Denise knew she would face pushback. She knew they were skeptical and she knew they would try to meddle. She worked hard with her doula to get her mind solid, her body strong, and to prepare for any situation or anything that would be thrown at her. Ultimately, she believed in herself. So with an unsupportive provider in an unsupportive hospital with an apprehensive family, Denise's preparation paid off! She labored hard, advocated for herself, and vaginally birthed a 9-pound, 5-ounce baby. Gina, one of our VBAC-certified doulas from California, co-hosts today's episode and shares information about how C-sections affect an infant's gut microbiome. She also mentions things we can do to help mimic the benefits of birthing vaginally if a Cesarean is necessary. Dr. Denise DeRosa's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. We have our friend, Denise, from New York City with us today. Hello, Denise. Denise: Hi. Meagan: I'm so excited for you to be sharing your stories. You are a VBA2C mama just like myself. Denise: Yes, I am. That's right. Meagan: Yes and when we were talking about the C-section aspect of things, it reminded me a little bit of myself. Didn't dilate, baby didn't come down. What do we know? We know that this is a very common, common thing. In addition to Denise, we have a very special co-host today and her name is Gina Benson. Hello, Gina. Gina: Hi. Meagan: She is one of our VBAC doulas. Tell us where you're at, Gina. Gina: I am in the Sacramento area of California based in Roseville. Meagan: Okay, all right. Then we‘re going to make sure that she has her website and everything so if you guys are in her area looking for a doula, go check her out for sure. She is going to do a Review of the Week for us today. So I'll turn the time over to you. Gina: All right. “I've waited and prayed about this moment to be able to write the words, ‘I got my VBAC' feels surreal. Two years ago, I gave birth to my daughter via Cesarean and since the OR, I've been dreaming of a VBAC. It felt like a primal right I was robbed of. Yesterday, I gave birth at home with gestational diabetes to a 9-pound, 2-ounce baby. I pushed him out of my vagina, pulled him out of the water, and sobbed in joy relishing in my redemption and power. This would not have been possible without The VBAC Link. I listened every day postpartum, sobbed and cheered with the Women of Strength. I cannot recommend this podcast enough to all expectant parents. Thank you, thank you, thank you.” Oh my gosh, do you guys have the chills? Because I literally have the chills. You know how when as a woman you shave your legs and you're like, Oh, I just felt my leg hairs grow? Yep, that just happened. Oh my gosh, thank you for such an amazing review and huge congratulations. I'm so glad that you've been able to walk the walk with us here at The VBAC Link. This is why we're here. We want to inspire, encourage, empower, and help you know for yourself what is best for you. We don't judge here at The VBAC Link, but we really, really do love your reviews. So thank you so much. Okay, so that review also talked a little bit about a big baby. Denise also had a larger baby with her VBA2C baby. I feel like there are so many things that are going to come together within this review and within everything. So, Denise, I want to turn the time over to you to share your C-sections to start and then your VBAC. Denise: Perfect, thank you. Hi everybody. I'm Dr. Denise DeRosa. I'm a pediatric physical therapist. I feel like I have to lead with that because who I am is what I do. That with motherhood is all merged together and really helped me in my journey for a successful VBAC. We'll start at the beginning with my first baby. I was pregnant. Everything was going great. Everything was wonderful. I was still working. I had an uncomplicated pregnancy. The only thing that was a little off was that the baby was measuring big. I was like, okay. Whatever. It should be fine. Those machines are way off anyway. I go to 40 weeks, 40 and 1, 40 and 2, 40 and 3. I'm 40 and 5 days and my doctor is like, “All right. I want to induce you tomorrow.” I'm like, “Okay, sounds good.” I didn't know anything. I worked at the hospital as well so I'm just trusting that we've got this and we were good. I loved my doctor. Everything was going great. That night before I went in to get induced, I actually did start feeling something. I was like, What is that? It feels like cramps or something. I don't know. At 3:00 AM, I think I'm in labor. “Hon, get up. We've got to get to the hospital. Let's go. Let's go.” We get to the hospital. It's 3:00 AM and I'm 3 centimeters dilated. I'm like, “Oh, okay. I guess that's good. I don't know.” We get all the things– the epidural, the Pitocin, and I pretty much just lay in the bed, sleep, do a puzzle game on my iPad, and relax because that's what they tell me to do. It is very easy for me to relax now. It gets to be 11:00 AM the next day. I'm like, “I feel a little bit different. Can I be checked?” I get checked. 10 centimeters, wonderful, beautiful. They turn off everything. You know when they turn off that epidural, it's like, bam. This is intense. Meagan: Especially when you were not feeling anything before. Denise: Exactly. Meagan: It can definitely pick up and be a little bit more than maybe you were expecting. Denise: Yes. I am in a Semi-Fowler position which is the one where you're essentially leaned back but not all the way back. You're inclined at a 45-degree angle. My hips and knees were at 90/90. It was essentially like I was sitting on the toilet but I was leaning back. I'm sure everybody knows the position that I'm talking about. That's the position to push. My husband is holding one leg. The nurse is holding the other leg. My doctor is telling me to push. It's just a disaster. I have to be honest with you. It was crazy because I didn't know how to push so he was telling me to push like I'm pooping and I'm pushing like I'm holding it in. Everything was spasming and everything was just a disaster. I remember saying, “Let me get up. Let me move my body. I'm a physical therapist. Let me move my body. I just need to move around a little bit and I'll be good. Just let me get up.” “No, you can't get up. You have the catheter in.”Meagan: Intuition. Your intuition was kicking in to move. Denise: Yeah, exactly. My pelvis was stuck in the position. I was just lying there. The only thing they did was flex my knees up and down. I think I got the peanut ball at one point but it's not like it was side-lying. There was no internal/external rotation. It was just one plain movement. Anyway, I pushed for 2 hours and nothing happened. My doctor was like, “All right. Why don't we give you a break? We'll turn on the meds. Relax for an hour and then I'll come back and we'll push again for an hour.” I'm like, “Okay, sounds good. I need a break. Wonderful.” A rest. He's like, “But you know, if nothing happens, we're going to have to get the C-section.” I'm like, “Okay, well let me try again.” No food. No water. Only Jello and ice chips. I hadn't eaten since the day before. I was just so out of it between the drugs and the not eating. I did sleep a little bit when I was relaxing there but I was shot. My doctor came back after an hour and he goes, “Denise, I just went across the hall and the girl across the hall, I turned off her meds and she pushed 3 times and the baby came out.” I was like– let's just say my hand went up in the air with one specific finger up. I essentially flipped off my– it wasn't even the doctor. It was just the situation. I was like, “Forget this. This is ridiculous.” Okay? Now that's the kind of relationship my doctor and I have that we can joke around and all of that stuff and after, I apologized. He was like, “Don't worry. I deliver people in handcuffs. That was not the worst thing.” Meagan: What? Denise: Yeah, you know if you are stationed at the hospital, you deliver everybody. You know?Meagan: Yeah. Denise: What do you think happened? I stayed in the bed. I pushed. Inefficient pushing. Baby never dropped. I was dilated to 10 centimeters but nothing happened. Okay, by the end of it, I was like, “Please give me a C-section. This is the worst day of my life.” She came out. They lifted her up and everybody in there was like, “Oh my god. Look at this big baby.” I was like, “What is she, 100 pounds?” I was so delirious. You know, at that point you are so delirious. Anyway, it was a girl. She was 9 pounds, 10 ounces. It was a big baby. She never dropped down. I didn't move my body and had a healthy baby, a healthy mom. Everybody was happy and I was just like, oh gosh. This is the best and the worst day of my life. When you become a mom, it's just the best but maybe not the best experience. Meagan: Yeah. Denise: That was my first birth. At the time, I was like, okay. It is what it is. I'll try harder for the second one. Now that I know what my body does, I'll VBAC. My doc was like, “That's fine. You can VBAC for the second, no problem.” Okay, great. In between my first and my second, I actually was pregnant and I was 8 weeks. I went to the doctor. I had a heartbeat but my doctor was like, “Come back in 2 weeks. Something is not right on here.” I'm like, “Okay.” I was going down the shore, the Jersey shore with my family. All 20 or us, a big Greek family vacation and I remember I was there and my doctor was like, “Okay, I want you to come back after that because the baby is measuring a little small.” I'm like, “Okay, no problem.” I'm down there and of course, that baby didn't make it. I wound up miscarrying while I was on vacation with my family. I called my doctor and he was there for me. He would call me every day and be checking in, “How are you doing?” I thought that was something doctors don't really do. He's a special guy. I could really tell. I felt like he really cared about me and cared for what was happening. In between my first and second, that happened and then I wound up getting pregnant with my second and I was like, oh I'm going to VBAC. Everything's going to be good. I took a labor and delivery course. I read my whole textbooks because sometimes physical therapists will be part of labor. So I'm like, I'm going to read up on this a little bit more. I take the course. Fast forward to 40 weeks and I started. I woke up in the morning. It was 6:00 in the morning and I was like, Oh, I feel something. This is great but let me not call my doctor right now. Let me stay home. Let me do the movements. I'm bouncing on the physioball. Of course, I have one of those. I'm walking around, doing the stairs, doing lunges, doing different positions. I'm like, “Let me just see where this goes,” and waiting as long as I can. I'm in touch with my doctor the whole day. 7:00 comes around. My husband comes home from work. I call my doctor. He's like, “Okay, well why don't you just come to the hospital and I'll check you? You've been in labor the whole day.” I'm like, “Okay, that sounds good.” I go to the hospital. He checks me. I'm 0 centimeters dilated. Zero. I'm like, “Come on.” He says to me, “Well, you've tried. You did.” He's like, “But what do you want to do? You want to keep contracting on an old uterus scar and something bad happens?” Meagan: Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Denise: I was like, “No, I don't want to do that.” At the time, I didn't educate myself enough on risks. I just thought it was me. I was like, I'm a physical therapist. I've got this. I exercise every day. I'm good. I'm going to do it. When he said that to me, I was like, “No, I don't want something bad to happen.”Essentially, I had a repeat C-section because I wasn't really in labor is what I tell people. Yeah, that was my second and he was fine. This baby was 9 pounds, 4 ounces. Meagan: Staying in the 9's. Denise: Another large baby. Yeah, it was fine. I felt like at the time, I was like, I did everything I could. Obviously, now I know I could have done more but at the time, I was like, I did my best. This is just my story and I'm fine with it. It is what it is. I have been growing my business for a few years at that point. My pediatric physical therapist business here on Statton Island and I felt like that was my third baby. You know, when you are a businesswoman, your business is like your child. Meagan: Yeah. Uh-huh. 100%. This business is one of my children. Yes. Denise: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I have my boy and my girl. I have three bedrooms in the house. I have a healthy boy and a girl. That's another thing too. As a physical therapist, I see a lot of different things and all babies are miracles. That's how I feel. All babies are amazing and I'm like, You know what? I'm good. I'm going to work on the business. I'm going to go back to work. We have healthy babies. We're good. You know that expression? You make plans and God laughs. Right? You know? I was like, you know what? I wound up getting pregnant when I wasn't trying to get pregnant. I had been trying for the other two and I was nursing and that's the other thing. You can't get pregnant, right?Meagan: A lot of people think. Denise: But you know, it's funny. I got pregnant the month after my ya-ya passed away. Ya-ya is Greek for grandma. I was like, You know, this biotch just had to reincarnate herself and she hit me. I'm like, Why couldn't she get my cousins? They don't have any kids. They could have kids. I'm like, Ah man. She reincarnated herself. She cursed me. I don't think babies are a curse. It's just at the time that I was feeling all the feels. Meagan: You weren't in that space. Denise: I was like, you know? I was done having kids. I was like, oh my god. I can't get pregnant. I'll have another major abdominal surgery. Here we go. Also, Meagan, I know you know. No one wants to watch more than one kid so it was– I was shocked. Yeah. I was shocked. Denise: I was like, you know what? I did have two miscarriages. One before my first and one between the first and second. Let's just see what happens. I'm not going to tell anybody. Let's just see where it goes. I'm not going to decide what to do now. I'll just wait a little while and see what happens. You know, when you have two kids and you're pregnant with a third, that pregnancy flies. Meagan: So fast. Denise: Very fast. I was like, oh my gosh. I'm almost in the third trimester. What am I going to do? At every appointment, my doc's like, “Denise, when are we going to schedule your section?” I don't like to pick baby's birthdays. For me, I would rather they come when the baby is ready and I wanted to go into labor at least and then get the C-section. Then I was like, I got to this point where I was like, I have to make a decision here. What am I doing? Am I going to just schedule a Cesarean or am I going to actually try to do this? So I'm like, let me look things up. I found you guys. I found out that women actually have vaginal birth after two Cesareans. This does happen. I'm thinking with my own individualized plan here, I had no complications with either one. I didn't have high blood pressure. I didn't have anything go badly so I really felt like I was a great candidate. Then there's there my doctor who was like, “No, you're not a good candidate. Your baby never dropped. Your babies were big and you didn't dilate on your own.” I'm like, “I know, but I just feel like I can do it.” So this is something that I tell my patients all the time that you need to listen to your mom intuition. There's nothing that can steer you wrong. If you feel like something's wrong with your baby or yourself, you need to get it checked out. It's probably nothing and everything is going to be fine, but at the same time, the way that mom feels directly impacts baby and I just felt like, you know what? I feel like I can do this. I feel drawn to this and I'm going to go for it. Then the things that really drove me over the edge was that my cousin had a successful VBAC at the beginning of my third trimester so I was like, oh. If she can do it, I can do it. Then I also got in touch with a doula who I had been talking with professionally and we met. She said something to me that I will never forget which is, “I have total and complete trust in your body's ability to birth.” I'm like, “No one has ever said that to me. I've only been told I don't dilate and my pelvis is too small and I grow too-big babies,” not “You grow really healthy babies, really chunky ones with lots of rolls and that's the best.” I was never told that. I'm like, you know what? If anyone can do this, it's me. I trust in myself. I've got to go for it. This is my last chance because if I got another section, then it would be my tubes tied and that would be the end of the road. That would be fine with me too because I don't really want more than three abdominal surgeries anyway. I made that decision to go forth with trying to achieve my VBAC. I have to tell you, I left all my cards on the table. There was no stone left unturned. I went in. I stopped working in September and I used all of October to prepare myself mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually because I would be reading even on The VBAC Link, the Facebook group all of the things people did. I didn't do everything. Listen, you only have so much time in the day when you have two kids already. But at least I was doing things that felt right for me and my body. Meagan: I love that you pointed that out because there are so many things, right? We even suggest it here at The VBAC Link. We're like, here's a whole list of things you can do to improve. Gina, I'm sure as a doula you have things that you suggest to your VBAC clients and I know I do too but it one, can get a little overwhelming honestly and two, like you said, time is a thing but three, here's a list. Pick what is appropriate for you. If every single one of those things is achievable, great. If not, pick some. Go with it. Right?Denise: Yeah. There are a thousand, bajillion things you can do. Meagan: There really are. Denise: Like I said, I picked what was right for me. I met with my doula. We did a pre-labor class specific for my body and how I would plan to move my body based on my anatomy. I know I'm a little asymmetrical from holding baby on one hip. I'm like, oh I've got to get that checked out. I prepared a lot and it was actually fun now that I'm looking back. I listened to you guys. I listened to other podcasts. I listened. I watched documentaries. I read books. I tried to do what felt right for me and then also educating myself on papers and even looking at my own research about different things that they tell you to watch out for when you're trying to achieve something that I achieved. Meagan: Out of the list– sorry to interrupt you– what were maybe your top three things that you were like, these were the best things? Obviously, you hired a doula and you got some education. What are, in addition to those, the top three things you did that really, really impacted the situation?Denise: The top three things were that I got my mind solid. I literally was like, Denise, you can do this. There was no– I had an intention. I think I listened to that– Henci Goer. Meagan: Henci Goer? Uh-huh, so good. Denise: I listened to that podcast maybe the week before and she said something like, “Have an intention, but not a goal because when you don't get it and it's a goal, then you feel all the feels. You feel like you failed.” I had an intention but I also had a feeling of, I'm going to do this. I'm not going to try. I'm just going to do. I'm an athlete as well so if you're an athlete or you're someone who pushes yourself physically, you can labor naturally like I did. I'm telling you, you can. You know like when you're on the treadmill and you're running and you just keep going and going? It's the same thing in labor. If you mentally train yourself with the physical, you're going to be successful. My top three tips would be get your mind solid and really find your why. Why do I want this VBAC? How is it going to feel? What is it going to be like? Imagine it. Then two, get your body right and then three, prepare for any situation that they're going to throw at you because they are going to throw things at you to make you sway the other way. They're going to tell you that you can't do it. They're going to tell you, as I get into my story, when you get to the hospital, they're going to throw things at you. I'm not even mad at the doctors in the hospital and the nurses because honestly, I really feel like doctors are really great people. They're not bad people at all. They are good people and the nurses are part of birth. This is the most sacred part of healthcare in my head– also palliative care and hospice care is important too but birth is really so important. Unfortunately though, there are policies in place and there are rules and regulations. I think everybody is just doing their best with that but my top tips would be mind solid, body solid, and prepare for anything they are going to say and throw at you because it's going to come. Meagan: Yeah, it's probably going to come. I love that. In our VBAC course, we focus so much on the mental prep too. I think a lot of times, we are more focused on that physical prep and what we can do with our body, but I think the mental part connects so deeply to the physical part that we cannot skip it. Denise: No, you cannot. Meagan: I skipped it with my second and look at what happened, I had a repeat section. Denise: So yeah, that's that. I guess I'll get into my third birth now yeah? Meagan: Yeah. Denise: Okay. Another healthy pregnancy, uncomplicated, everything was fine. I get to my third trimester and that's when I decided to go for the VBAC. I'm doing all the things like I said and I get to 40 weeks. I get to 40+1, 40+2. I go to the doctor and I'm like, “I'm not going to get checked today. I'm just going to talk to him.” He comes in the room, arms folded, you know? He's like, “What's going on? You don't want to schedule?” I'm like, “Doc, I want you to know that I have so much respect for what you do.” I essentially did a fear release which you talk about in the course as well. It's so important and holding things back and preventing it from labor. I essentially did a fear release with my doctor where I told him that I loved him and I respected him and I didn't think I know more than him because I definitely don't. I don't know how to cut through and do all of the surgeries and everything. I'm a conservative health profession, okay? We don't do any surgeries. No blood, no thanks. I just said that to him. “I don't think I know more than you. I just feel like I can't schedule it and I feel like there are things that I can do.” We talked about successful VBACs after two Cesareans at the hospital and it was essentially, “You have to get there when you're pretty much ready to push. They're going to try and give you a section and they're going to try and give the epidural and they're going to try and do the things and they're going to try and meddle. You come to the hospital in pain, you're going to get pain medicine because it's part of hospital regulations and all of that stuff.” I was like, “Okay.” He gave me my answer. It was too late to switch at that point. I thought about switching to a midwife and having my baby at home, but that was just something I really knew my husband would never go for. He was already scared that something bad was going to happen to me and the baby because that's what he was told at the appointments.We did essentially fear release on the 7th and on the 8th of November, I woke up with the same cramping I had with my second. I was like, oh, this is something. I think the fear release must have worked. Awesome. All right. Let's just see how this goes today because I have to keep my mind right. I have to go about my day. That's what everybody in every single VBAC Link story said they did. I walked my daughter to school. I take my son for a walk around the block. I did the curb walking. I did the Miles Circuit. I ate my dates and my tea. It was a normal day. I just ignored it and the contractions would get closer together and they would get farther apart and then change in intensity so I thought this was prodromal labor. I think I said that right. Meagan: Prodromal. Denise: Prodromal. Okay, sorry. I'm like, okay. This is what this is. I'm just going to rest and that evening, I put the kids to sleep and I was like, let me try to rest because I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring if I'm going to be fine or if I'm actually going to do this. So I go to sleep. I wake up 2 hours later at 12:00 and between 12:00 and 4:00 AM, I was laboring by myself. I didn't want to wake up my husband because I didn't want to go to the hospital too soon. I didn't want to wake up my kids obviously because no one wants to be around them when you're in labor, right? Or maybe you do. I don't know.I went in the bath. I'm trying to manage my contractions. I'm in the shower for an hour. I'm in the bath for an hour. I'm trying to sit. I'm trying to stand. Everything was worse sitting. 4:00 AM comes and I'm like, I think these are getting closer together. I download the contraction timer on my phone. I'm like, let me actually time these. They were 5 minutes apart. I'm like, okay. Let me text my doula. I text her but you know when you are past 40 weeks and everybody is texting you, “How are you doing? Did you go into labor yet?” All of the questions. I turned my phone on the Do Not Disturb thing a day before because I couldn't take anymore of these questions. I already had my own anxiety and stress about this. I turned my phone on Do Not Disturb. I called and texted her and then she texted and called me back and I wasn't getting any messages because I turned my phone on Do Not Disturb. I was like, oh goodness. 6:00 AM rolls around. I finally get in touch with her. I text my mom, “Can you please come here?” My doula gets there and at this point, I'm trying to just focus on my breath like we've practiced.I'm like, okay. Breathe in. Breathe out. I was trying to do whatever I can to manage this pain. I didn't want to go to the hospital at all at that point but I didn't want to go too early. When my doula got there, it was a complete 180. Oh my gosh. She came. She did the pain pressure points. She massaged. She got the essential oils. She did the rebozo think. I put on my Folklore and Evermore soundtracks for my Swifties in here and I was just jamming. It was like I was on the treadmill running like I used to do back when I was young and had better knees. It was great. I could have stayed there forever. I probably did it for an hour because I remember I listened to both albums and I was just fine. I was kneeling on the physio ball and everythings was good. I thought, man. I should have tried for a home birth. Oh well. I'm not going for a fourth so no home birth for me. My doula was like, “All right, Denise. Do you want to try to bring baby down and try some different positions?” I'm like, “Yes, let's do it,” because I knew that would be one of the things. I go to my stairs with one leg up and one leg down. I go to down on the floor into a half-kneeling position and I'm like, “Okay, let's do this contraction. Breathe in. The contraction comes.” My water breaks. I'm  like, “Oh my gosh.” Water is just dripping down my leg. That never happened before. My water just broke. Wow, this is amazing. I'm like, “Okay, let's go get changed.” My doula was like, “Okay, this is time to go to the hospital.” I'm like, “Oh my god. This is great. I'm getting on way.” I go upstairs and change. She's like, “Okay, we've got to move,” and my mom is like, “Come on, Denise. We've got to go to the hospital now. Come on!”My mom was very anxious and I said to her, “Mom, I know it's your birthday and I'm trying to be nice to you but please don't push me. If I'm not ready to go to the hospital, I'm not going to go.” I love my mom. She's my best friend and she really just cares for me.Meagan: Yeah, and a lot of the time, they're like, if you're in this much labor, you go to the hospital. That's how they were raised too. Denise: Right, exactly and that's fine. It's just that I knew I didn't want to go and also, I think the day before I listened to your podcast with Julie about going to the hospital and how everything shifts from when you're at home and you're so calm, cool, and collected and everything is good but when you get to the hospital, it's like, bam. Interventions, stress, people talking at you. Meagan: Touching, talking, questions, lights, new voices, new space, new smells. You have to re-acclimate. Denise: Meddling. Right. That was fresh in my brain too. I'm like, “I'm going to go when I'm ready.” Anyway, we're ready. We're ready to go. Let's go. I get in my husband's car. My mom is in the back seat. My doula drove herself because she was going to leave from the hospital when it was done. I live in New York City. There's traffic everywhere. It's Thursday at 10:00 AM and there really shouldn't be traffic then but of course, there was. I couldn't sit, right, because everything was getting worse. I'm leaning on my husband's truck with my arms in the middle and my butt at the window. God help whoever was next to us in the car like, “What is happening over there?” Meanwhile, my mom is in the backseat crying in between. I lost control of my breath so I was literally screaming during contractions. It was like I was at a concert except it wasn't fun. I said to my mom while she's in the back, “Mom, I'm okay. The baby is getting ready to come out. It's going to be fine. I'm going to be fine. The baby's fine. I'm fine. See? I can talk in between contractions just when it comes, it's very strong.” She was like, “I know. It's okay. It's all right.” My poor mom on her birthday. She thought I was going to have the baby in the car. That's what she thought. Meagan: I'm sure she did. Denise: Yeah, she was like, “Oh my god. There's a police cop over there. Flag him down. Flag him down.” She opened the window but then we already passed. It was quite a scene actually now that I think about it. Anyway, we get to the hospital and of course, there's construction at the hospital so it takes me 10 minutes to walk up to L&D.” Now this is the hospital that I used to work at so I'm like, oh god. Please don't let anybody see me like this, not my old co-workers or my boss. Please let me get to L&D. Please, please. All right, I make it up. It took me 10 minutes but I make it up. It was 10:45 AM. I get there and the nurse was like, “Come on, hon. Let's get in the room.” I have a contraction, I'm like, “Please wait.” She's pushing me, “Come on, come on.” I'm like, “Please don't push me. I'm in the active stages of labor.” Who do I think I am? I think I know stuff. Meagan: You do know stuff. You do know stuff. Denise: Thank you. I get into the room and girls, I'm not joking. There are 12-15 people in that room with me. They're all talking at me, talking at me, “Do you want the epidural? Do you want the C-section? We need to give you an IV. We need your insurance card.” Where am I going? You're going to get my insurance card. Relax everybody. Chill. Because you can't get a bracelet on me? Everybody knows who I am. The doctor has probably been talking about me for days. It's fine. You're going to get the insurance card. Meanwhile, I'm in such late stages of labor at that point. I'm contracting every 30-45-1 minute. I forget. I was like, “Please. I prepared for this.” I knew they were going to come at me like this. Not me, specifically. It's not a personal thing. It's just what I was. Meagan: It's just what they do. It's just what they do. You're a label. Denise: And I'm not offended. I didn't take it personally. I was ready though. I knew they were going to come at me and I had a plan which was, don't say no and don't shut down. I also heard along my journey, “Don't say no. Don't have negative energy.” You're not able to control other people's feelings, but you are able to control yourself. When they came at me like that, I was like, “Please just give me a second. Can you wait a minute? Please let me get through this contraction. I just want a second. Not right now.” I had all of the things listed of what I was going to say when they came at me. Came is a bad word. When they said things, I just knew how they were going to say things. Meagan: When they were approaching you, you knew your response wasn't going to be no. It's, “I prefer. Not right now. In just one moment,” and stuff like that versus, “No, no. Get away.” Denise: Right, exactly. Exactly. I could have been like that but I wanted to bring my baby into the world in the most positive way that I could and that's just how I approached it. I'm like, “Just check me. Just check me before you do all of these interventions.” They checked me and I was 9 centimeters. I'm like, “What's that? I dilated by myself.” My doula was like, “That's amazing.” My OB was like, “Yeah, but the baby is really high.” I didn't even hear him say that. She told me he said that after. I think I was blocking out a lot of negative things on purpose. That was one of the things I prepared for. He's like, “Oh, but the baby is really high.” I'm like, “Okay, just give me a second.” The anesthesiologist was like, “Let's give you the epidural just for insurance.” I'm like, “Not right now, just give me a second.” They're like, “The baby's heart rate is dropping.” I knew they were going to say that too. I said, “Okay, well what's it dropping to and what's it coming back to?” When they said it something that was essentially normal, I said, “It's a 9-pound baby in there. Of course its heart rate is dropping. It's being contracted by a strong uterus to get it out. Give it second.” I don't remember saying this but my doula said that I said this which is, “I'm okay. My baby is okay. I know no one in this room thinks that I can do it, but I can. Okay?” I was like, “That's what I verbalized.” I don't really remember saying that but I was outside of my body I guess. She was like, “I got the chills when you said that because everybody was so anxious in that room and only you held it together.” I was like, “Well, yeah. I knew what was going to happen.” I worked in the hospital for 7 years. I get it. There is litigation. There are policies in place and people are scared for their jobs. I get it. It's fine. So anyway, that went on for about a half hour and then the nurse who pushed me in the hallway that I wasn't so nice to was like, “All right, Denise. Can we try a position?” I was like, “Yes, please. Let's do it. Let's try to switch positions please.” She gets the peanut ball and I got onto my side into internal rotation where you put your knees together and you have your feet on the physio ball. That opens the outlet of the pelvis to get the baby to drop down. I already know all of these things but no one had offered it and I wasn't thinking straight to even bring it up. I flipped into the position and the anesthesiologist was like, “Can I give you the epidural while you are on your side?”I'm like, “No.” Meagan: Oh my gosh, he's still pushing this epidural. Get out of my room, sir or ma'am. Denise: I know. I didn't push anybody out because I didn't have time for that. I was focused on what I had to focus on and what I came here to do. So I go on my side. One contraction and I'm like, “Um, I think I have to poop.” I was saying it but I had that feeling that baby dropped but I really thought that it was number two. They flipped me on my back and they were like, “All right, hold your knees up to your chest.” I'm like, “I don't like this position.” Remember, this is the position that they put me in with my first to push baby and it didn't work? I had PTSD from it. I was like, “I don't like this position.” They were like, “Just try it. Just try it.” I hear my doula say to me, “Denise, J breathe.” I'm like, “Oh my god. That's the cue. That's the cue that I need to push. The breath that I need to push this baby out. That's the cue we talked about. Oh my god. It's almost over. It's almost here.” Then I hear the whole room shift and my OB says, “All right, well if she wants to have a vaginal birth, let's do it.”I hear my husband say– my husband was very nervous about this whole situation and he wasn't really talking. He was there but he wasn't really saying anything. I hear him say– everyone was saying, “Push, push.” But I hear him specifically say, “Push, push. Breathe in. Breathe out. Push the right way.” This 9-pound, 5-ounce baby shot right out of me. The doctors didnt even catch him. He landed on the table. I didn't know that but I heard that later. That was it. I said, “Baby, baby.” They let me hold my baby right away. We did skin-to-skin. My husband got to cut the cord. I got to call out the gender and you feel the room anxiety shift. The anesthesiologist leaves of course. Meagan: He's done. Denise: The whole energy of the room just shifts into, “Oh, okay. She did it. All right.” Meagan: It's actually possible. Maybe we shouldn't doubt her. Denise: Yeah. I don't mean that in a negative way, but there is so much anxiety and nervousness about birth whether if you don't educate yourself enough like I did or didn't do with my second and even in the L&D, room, things can go wrong. He could have gotten stuck. I don't know. So many things could have happened. When the air in the room changed, everything was great. Everybody laughed. The doc stitched me up. I got to nurse the baby right away and the nurse said something to me. She was like, “Wow. You are such a strong woman.” I was like, “Oh yeah, I'm a Woman of Strength now. I can say that.” She was like, “Wow, you are a really strong woman. I'm surprised the doctor let you have a TOLAC.” I said, “Oh, no honey. This was not his choice. This was my choice.” My choice was not the same choice I recommend for everybody. I put in a lot of work for this obviously as I've said and it's not really for everybody and that's okay. It's okay to have the birth that you feel the safest and the most comfortable with because this is your start into motherhood. But if anyone feels inspired today, I'm glad that I was able to help with that. Obviously, I joke around and my OB, I still love him. He came into my room the next day and said, “Ah, here's the champion.” Yeah. You know and he said, “Listen, you were the right person to do it. You put in the work and you knew what to do.” Yeah. Meagan: You put in the work and knew what to do. Denise: Yeah, so that's my story. It's a doozy. Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love it. Gina: It's perfect. Meagan: Yeah, right? I mean, Gina, tell me about your area. Do you have a lot of unsupportive hospitals and providers in this way where they come in and you would expect a scenario like Denise's? Gina: Probably not quite. They actually have gotten a lot better. Meagan: That's good. Gina: They are pretty supportive even after two C-sections. We do have supportive providers for that and hospitals for that. It's not unheard of. It's not like, oh. You can't do this. Meagan: Right. Right. Gina: Yeah. Meagan: That is the case in so many places. Gina: Yes. Meagan: Like in Denise's situation. Denise: Yes, New York City and New Jersey as well. In New Jersey, if you have two Cesareans, you cannot be with a midwife. It's not allowed. Meagan: Yeah. Even here in Utah, which is a supportive VBA2C state, but some of those hospitals also do that. They are like, “Oh no, if you're a VBAC in general, you can't be with a midwife.” It's a little frustrating. We have a lot of work to do but Denise, I bet you probably didn't change your provider's perspective completely on VBAC. I bet the next VBAC after two Cesarean mama that came in, he likely may have said, “No. Not going to happen.” But you never know. He might have been like, “Okay. We can try it.” It takes us to show the world that it's possible, that it can be safe, that it's reasonable, our bodies are amazing, and so many of the things you could have had with the heart rate or the baby wasn't coming down or a bigger baby or whatever. All of these things could have stalled you up and you were like, “No. I can do this.” You put the power in your pocket and took the lead. Denise: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also read this along the way too. I had three births. My doctor has been to 20,000 births. Does he remember my birth? Probably because it was so dramatic. Meagan: Monumental for him, yeah. Denise: I'm his special patient as he calls me. But it's not the top of his list. He's on to the next thing and that's okay. This is his job. This is what he does. Like I said, he's not a bad person. He just wants to control the situation so he can make it the most safe in his opinion. But for me, I felt like by the end of it, my grandmother didn't curse me. She blessed me with an opportunity. My son is of course named after her and a lot of other amazing people like my dad and I just feel like you have to make your own story your own and you have to be comfortable with what you feel comfortable doing. I was more comfortable staying with a provider and a hospital I knew wasn't going to be like, “Oh yeah, Denise, you can do it,” but I knew in myself that if I believed in myself and I did the work and put in the work, I could do it. And it worked out for me. I wish I had that for three births but at least I had it for one and I get to come on here and share it with everybody that they can have the same experience I did. Meagan: That's really how I feel. Yeah, I didn't have the experience that I wanted for birth number one and birth number two but it brought me here today and that's okay. That's okay. So you have said that you have even more detail of your story on your website. Can you tell everybody, and we'll have it in the show notes, but can you tell everybody if they want to read more details on your story where they can find that?Denise: Absolutely. My business is milestonesinmotionptw.com and on there I have blogs about lots of different things but I decided to write my birth story which took me the entire fourth trimester because I had three kids by then. I wasn't sleeping. You know all the things. But yeah, it's a completely unedited version with a few more details. If anyone ever wants to reach out to me, I do have resources and I'm working on some virtual stuff with the business so if you have any issues post-birth with the baby with tummy time and crawling and stuff, I have some resources up there for you guys if anyone wants to check it out. And just reading the story– reading and listening to stories like on this podcast really made the difference for me too so thank you for doing it. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Thank you and like I said before, we'll have her link in the show notes so you can go and check it out. I love that you were pointing out tummy time and all of those things that you can help with. Then cute Gina actually is going to be talking about the gut biome and the effects of it and what birth can do and all of these things. Gina, I'd love to turn the time over to you to add this extra topic. Gina: Thank you. One of the reasons that we want to try to avoid unnecessary Cesarean births is because of the type of impact that that type of delivery can have on a newborn's long-term health. Some of the outcomes that we know can be associated with C-section births are increased risk of diabetes, obesity, and asthma. There is some research that indicates that those increased risks are because of the way the newborn's gut microbiome develops after a C-section versus after a vaginal birth. The microbiome is basically an ecosystem of bacteria and there are microorganisms that live in a digestive tract. For a C-section birth where the amniotic sac hasn't even been broken before you get to surgery, the baby basically has no exposure to any of the flora that are in the vagina which they would get in contact with if they were coming through the vaginal canal. That's part of what helps to populate that healthy gut biome. It gets the healthy gut bacteria in there for the newborn. The other part we know that helps build that healthy biome is actually the contact the newborn has with the perineum. If you think about where the perineum is in relation to your anus which is the exit of your digestive tract, that's where those bacteria are going to be. The baby also gets that exposure so it's a combination of all of it. In a C-section birth, sometimes they get none of it or only part of it. That's what seems to be a trigger for some of those outcomes that we see long-term for people if they have had a C-section birth. With all that said, is there anything we can do about it? Actually, yes. There is. There are a few things. One of the things that I do with my doula clients is I discuss the choices that they have for their birth and we use that to draft birth plans. I make sure we cover options for spontaneous vaginal births as well as induction and also C-sections because reality is that some babies are going to be born via C-section and I don't want anybody unprepared for it or not knowing what their options are to make it a better birth experience than just a sterile, surgical procedure. We have documented preferences for each of those outcomes. There are a few things that I make sure we include in a family-centered C-section birth plan that help support that healthy newborn microbiome. I learned about that somewhat from The VBAC Link doula training and I also attended a conference earlier this year called Micro Birth that was basically two days worth of people talking about newborn microbiome and how breastfeeding helps with it and everything. It was fascinating. The first option that I make sure we include in the C-section birth plan is to delay the use of the prophylactic antibiotics. That's what they give you ahead of time to try and prevent an infection from coming on during surgery. That's not a bad idea, but when we do it right away before the baby is born and before the cord has been cut, they can also get some of those antibiotics and that will interfere with their ability to build that bacteria in their gut. One of the ways that we can easily manage that is just delay it. Make sure they don't give us antibiotics until after the baby is out and cord has been clamped so we know that they have gotten all of their blood and they aren't getting anything else from the surgery or anything else from the IV. In most non-emergency C-sections, that should be an absolutely reasonable request because there's just a matter of timing. You're not trying to tell them, “Don't give it to me,” it's just a matter of when and all they do is just push it through your IV. It's also possible for some emergency ones depending on how much time they have. That's one of the really important ones that helps all of the other suggestions. Meagan: Fascinating. Gina: Yeah, the other one that we include in the birth plan is vaginal seeding. I know that's part of the VBAC Link course. Vaginal seeding is using gauze or a swab in the vagina to collect the fluids that are there prior to surgery and then you use that and you wipe it on the newborn's face. You make sure you get it in around their mouth and nose the same way they would be exposed to it if they came through the vagina during birth. That helps to transfer that to the baby. You can also make it even more effective if you make sure you include the perineum so maybe after you do the vagina one, make sure you include the perineum swab as well so you get all of it at one time and transfer it to the baby. There are a couple of times where some things that you don't want to use this for if the birthing parents has Group B strep or genital herpes, especially if they have an active outbreak, some of those conditions we know pose a risk to newborns and this wouldn't be a good idea. You don't want to try to introduce that just to get the flora there. It can be difficult to get the hospital to participate in this directly. I believe that ACOG has said it's still under research so unless you are being supervised, you shouldn't be doing this, but if you include it in your birth plan and you actually want to do it yourself, you can get the gauze. You can get the swabs. You can do it and either you or your partner can do it for the newborn. They can't stop you from doing it yourself but they may not want to particpate. Meagan: Yeah, they usually don't. We have clients who have ordered the gauze and everything online and then in Denise's situation where she was like, “I want to labor at home as long as possible,” and all of this stuff, they did it right before. They washed hands really, really well, got gloves even and did it, put it in a bag, and put it in their hospital bag because in case it does go a Cesarean route or whatever, they had it and then they don't even have to deal with the staff. Gina: Exactly. There are always those types of things where you can take it upon yourself and do it yourself. Yeah. Like you mentioned, doing it at home would be a great idea because you want to make sure that you've done it and the swab and everything is out before they start prepping you for surgery because they will use the sterile cleansing options and that will destroy some of it. Always make sure you do it beforehand if you can. Then the last thing that I talk about which isn't necessarily part of the birth plan, but it's a really effective way to help restore and build the healthy microbiome for the baby is probiotics. You can start them yourself prenatally and have a prenatal probiotic that you take. You can continue using it while you are lactating because it will transfer to the baby as well. There is one I know Needed offers.Meagan: There's a pre and probiotic. I really love it. I take it myself. Gina: Yeah. That one's on my list of options that I give to people. I have a few different ones I've looked into that have the right mix of bacteria that they're looking for so that's a great one to use. The other one is that you can actually have probiotics for a newborn. That's proven to be pretty effective if you have a C-section baby. That's one of the most well-researched ways of helping rebuild that microbiome for them especially if you are using it in combination with breastfeeding because human milk has the perfect sugars to feed those bacteria that we are looking for so it's a really great combination. There are a lot of different infant probiotic options out there and not all of them have the right mix of bacteria or the right type of bacteria that we know research shows comes through a vaginal birth and is also associated with good long-term health outcomes. There's one that they have studied the most to be effective. It's in Australia and it's called Imploran. You can buy it online and I'll provide the links as well but I also have a couple of others that have similar makeups that you can use. That's what I have to say about that but it's a very fascinating topic. I love to see even some of the negative outcomes with C-sections be improved by things we have learned along the way. Meagan: I love that. Thank you so, so, so much for sharing that with us. Denise, thank you for sharing your stories and your VBAC and your journey and all of your tips are so incredible. I'm so grateful for you. Denise: Thank you. Thanks for having us. Gina: Yes, thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Joining us from Texas today is Caitlin and it is her birthday!Caitlin's first baby was born at 34 weeks via an emergency C-section due to elevated blood pressure and fetal distress. Though she was scared, it was not a traumatic experience and her recovery went well. She just knew that moving forward for future births, she wanted to experience labor and she wanted something different. Caitlin talks about the importance of knowing not just your provider's general stance on VBAC, but their specific policies surrounding it. At 39 weeks, she went to the hospital with preeclamptic symptoms. Still counting on her provider to support her VBAC, Caitlin started to face things she wasn't comfortable with. Her symptoms were under control, but she could tell that her baby wasn't yet ready to come. She knew she needed to sign an AMA and go home. When the time came, Caitlin was able to advocate for the birth she wanted, declined the interventions she knew she didn't truly need, and leaned on those who felt safe in her space. “Having the VBAC made me so proud and confident in myself and any future births that I'm blessed with.” Happy Birthday, Caitlin!!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. You guys, I am so excited for today's episode. We have our friend, Caitlin, from– are you from Texas? Where are you from?Caitlin: I'm from Texas, yes. Meagan: Texas. Yes. I wanted to say that then I started questioning myself. She is from Texas and we just went over a quick rough draft of all the things that happened in her birth and there are so many points I feel like to her birth. One, she's a VBAC. She had preeclampsia with her first and her second. This is her second baby during her VBAC and with her first, she signed an AMA so we are going to talk about that and what that looks like. We're going to talk more about preeclampsia. We're going to talk about switching providers. One, switching providers but two, maybe trying to set ourselves up to not have to switch in the future and setting up ourselves to have a supportive provider from the beginning because she definitely had that and so much more. I'm really, really excited to get into the story. I do have a Review of the Week. This review is– I don't actually know how to say the name. Sidsie, maybe? It says, “Such an amazing resource for VBAC-hopeful mamas and others preparing for birth who haven't had a previous Cesarean. Their podcast has amazing birth stories and their blog has amazing articles. They have a ton of resources to find doulas and providers and are excited and happy to help support VBAC mamas. I recommend their podcast to my doula clients and I listen to each episode as it comes out. Definitely check it out.” I love that. This is a birth worker. Birth workers, we love you and we love your reviews. As you know, we do have a doula directory so if you are looking for a doula, these doulas are absolutely incredible. Go to thevbaclink.com and click on “Find a Doula”, search your area, and find out which doulas are close to you. Also, if you haven't had a chance, I'm requesting a specific place for reviews today. If you would not mind, head over to Google at “The VBAC Link” and click on it then leave a review. I would absolutely love it. Meagan: Okay, Caitlin. I'm already so excited that I just am going to turn the time over to you but before I do, I have to say one thing. Caitlin: I'm excited too. Do it. Meagan: Happy birthday. Caitlin: Thank you. Meagan: It's not your birthday the day you are recording, but we have determined it will be the day your episode comes out which we didn't do on purpose. Happy birthday. Caitlin: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Meagan: You're welcome. You are welcome. All right. Well go ahead and share your stories. Caitlin: Okay, well I guess we should start with my first birth which was August 18, 2021. I was 34 weeks pregnant. I had lingering high blood pressure for about a week and it was elevating over time. My doctor was like, “Let's look at the baby.” With that check, baby was showing signs of distress and it was pretty immediate and quick. We went in for an emergency C-section. In the moment, I was so scared. It was my first child. I know what that meant. I didn't really care what that meant for my future births. I didn't really think of what that might mean for my future birthing experience. My main concern was that my current baby isn't doing well and let's do what we need to do to keep him and myself safe. That's how that went. I do want to say that my C-section was not traumatic. I didn't have a terrible recovery. It really was all good. I just knew that moving forward for future births that I wanted to experience labor. I had never experienced labor. I wanted to have more children than just two so I knew moving forward from that the risks that come with it. That's how my first kiddo was born. It was an emergency C-section. He was healthy. He was in the NICU for a little bit but that's just because he was so little at 34 weeks. Meagan: You actually had a preterm. That was another thing I forgot I wrote down. You had a preterm Cesarean. Caitlin: I did. Yes. It was very quick. We were at my doctor's appointment at 10:00 and got to the hospital and baby was born within an hour or two. It was a quick turnaround. It was a very high stress situation but it all worked out okay. Now my 3-year-old is wonderful. I'm grateful for how that all worked out and I'm glad that he was safe and that I was safe.That was my first birth. For my second, I knew that I wanted to try for a VBAC. I did extensive research and when I say extensive research, I mean I went crazy a little bit. No. there's never too much research. I did obtain all of the information I could find. I was listening to podcasts 24/7. I looked at studies and articles and the actual science behind it all. I just dove headfirst into it and I knew that this was what I wanted to try for. I wasn't scared of a repeat Cesarean. Again, I wasn't like, I can't do that again. I just knew this was the route I wanted to try to take. My due date for my second was August 19, 2023, so literally 2 years and a day after my first was born. I told my doctor at every single appointment even as early as it gets at the appointment where you hear the heartbeat and the appointment before they could even find the heartbeat, I was like, “I want a VBAC. I want a VBAC. I want a VBAC.” He was extremely receptive. He said, “You're a perfect candidate.” He was super receptive so I felt really good about it. I was thinking about this last night with my husband as I was running through all of the little details and I think my provider being so on board made me feel like I didn't need to do the little additional prodding questions to make sure that it was going to work out. It just seemed like every time I brought it up that it was a no-brainer. It was going to be VBAC fine. That's kind of your caveat for later but I felt like it was all going to be great. My provider was on board and that's the number-one checklist. But the thing I didn't do was ask him specifics. I didn't ask if I needed an induction, what does that look like? I didn't ask him, how many successful VBACs have you done? What is your approach if x, y, and z happens? I didn't get details because it just seemed so positive the whole time. Meagan: And that's the hard thing. It can be so easy to be like, “Hey, I want a VBAC. Do you support that?” “Yeah. Cool, no problem. Yep. Of course, we do. No worries.” Or like you said where he was like, “Yes, I know you want a VBAC. Let's move on,” instead of talking about that VBAC. I feel like that was maybe a little bit of a flag in ways. Caitlin: Yes. I should have picked up on it because it got to the point where I would walk into an appointment and the first words were, “I know you want a VBAC. We've got that.” I'm like, “Okay, great. We've got it.” I think I was a little naive that that was him checking that off the appointment list maybe and being like, I don't actually need to give this girl a VBAC when push comes to shove. Meagan: Or tell her anything, yeah. I really encourage people to ask open-ended questions like you said like, “How many VBACs do you support? How do you feel about VBAC and what does it look like? For some reason if I have to be induced, do you induce them and what does it look like then?” and all of those types of things. Caitlin: Definitely. Definitely. I started to feel all of this pressure because toward the end, we didn't really talk about a plan. Then the language changed to, “We can't really make a plan because we just have to wait and see if you're going to go into labor.” So then I was like, “Oh dang, then I really need to go into labor.” Then we got to 36-37 weeks and I'm getting more and more in my head, “What if I don't go into labor? What happens next? We still don't have a plan.” We started to do membrane sweeps. I got three membrane sweeps and I did them on the time period– I don't remember what it was. I think if you do two within 48 hours or something like that, people say– I don't know who people are. I was just a maniac with my research and they were like, “Maybe that will increase your chances of your body going into labor on its own.” I did three membrane sweeps trying to get the ball rolling. I stayed at 1 the whole time. No changes. I was doing all of the things at home up to week 39. I was eating dates, curb walking, drinking raspberry leaf tea, bouncing on the ball. I was pumping colostrum. My baby is 9 months old and I still have colostrum in her freezer. Meagan: Holy cow, girl. Caitlin: I was doing everything begging my body to please do this for me. Please. There were no changes. Meagan: It wasn't listening. It wasn't ready. Caitlin: It wasn't. I was also forgetting to consider the fact that my body with my first did not go into labor. This was my first real experience with childbirth and labor. Do you know what I mean? My C-section grew and changed me in so many ways and like I said, I don't regret that at all, but in my head I kind of counted that like, my body should be going into labor, when in reality, my body wasn't going to go into labor. At least not as early as I was trying to make it. So moving on from that, I did all of the things. I kept doing the things. I felt frustrated doing the things because the things weren't thinging and I couldn't but I tried and all I kept doing was being positive. My blood pressure was fine my entire pregnancy so we got past that 34-week mark which with my first, my high blood pressure started at week 33 and we got past that point. I felt really good about it. There were no high readings then on August 4th, I was 38 weeks. It was a Friday. I had felt kind of off during the day but I was also like, I'm 38 weeks pregnant. I'm probably going to feel off for the next however many weeks I'm pregnant. Then later that night, I noticed major swelling in my hands and my feet. I was like, this is something I am familiar with. I am not familiar with other things that are coming, but this is something that I am. We didn't have a blood pressure cuff so husband had me go to a CVS or Walgreens or something like that and take it in one of those machines and it was extremely high. I was apprehensive. I was like, I don't want to rush right in. I called my on-call person and obviously their response was to go to the hospital. They can't guide you through anything when it comes to high blood pressure over the phone. I go to the hospital. I was planning on going there for my VBAC even though I'm 39 weeks now and still at a 1 but I'm like, It's going to be fine. My doctor's on board. The bummer with that was that it was a Friday night and it was probably closer to the middle of the night and early Saturday morning. The nurse who had us at intake was actually– we recognized her and couldn't figure it out then she was like, When did you have your last baby? It was the same nurse who helped us prep for the emergency delivery of my first son. She was super sweet and super comforting. It was nice to have somebody who had seen what we went through previously. My blood pressure was still high at the hospital. They started some IV fluids and I was just resting. They checked on baby and he looked great. No issues with him which from my prior experience, that's what changed everything for me was that he was fine. So I kept asking throughout our time sitting and watching our blood pressure, I was like, “Baby is fine?” They were like, “He's doing great.” That was super, super– and that was completely different from my first time around. Then finally, the doctor came in who was working for that night and the first words out of her mouth were, “We'll do a C-section first thing in the morning. We'll get you on the calendar.” I was like, “Oh, well my plans were to try for a VBAC,” and that was basically met with an eye roll. She was like, “You can talk to the doctor who is in for your doctor this weekend because he's not the doctor over the weekend. You can talk to her and see what she thinks.” I was like, “No, yeah. I'll be happy to talk to her. Do you want me to call her right now? Because I'm not going to stay here. Don't put me on the schedule for tomorrow morning.” She actually did. She called the doctor who was in for the weekend from my doctor's practice and I mean, basically what I kept getting was, “Protocol is when you have high blood pressure this late in pregnancy, we just do a C-section.” Then every time I asked, “Why?” I was like, “If my baby is fine, why do we do a C-section? If my baby is doing okay,” and my blood pressure at that point was getting lower. We were managing it. I think the fluids helped, elevating my legs, resting, and all of those things. My blood pressure was lowering and my baby was fine. I was like, “Why?” They didn't really have an answer every time I asked that. I got on the phone with the doctor who was in for my doctor over the weekend and the one who would be doing the C-section the following morning. I'm telling you. We were on the phone for– I had her on speakerphone so my husband could hear what she was saying and what I was saying. My husband knew I did all of this research but as I was debating with this doctor, I could see on his face that he was learning things. He was like, “Oh, that's a good point. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. You're not that crazy, Caitlin. I see it. You know?” So I could see him learning through what I was saying to her about my why and why I wanted to do it this way. She was basically saying, “I can have a baby in your arms by lunch tomorrow. You could be walking around.” I was like, “That's really not my goal. That's not what I'm trying to do.” Finally, I was like, “Hey, look. Based on what I have found, I know that a good induction method would be a balloon Foley. Can you come do that? I'm not going to say yes to a C-section tomorrow with my baby doing fine and my blood pressure dropping. It's getting better.” She was like, “Okay.” She was like, “I can do it.” I was like, “Have you done it before?” She was like, “Yes I have. I will come in and do one tonight. We can see how you progress overnight and so on and so forth.” They put us in our room and my blood pressure was looking good. They take monitors off of me. They don't need to be watching baby anymore. All is good. We're sitting in the room. We are waiting for the doctor to come to start the balloon. Finally, I asked the nurse. I'm like, “Hey, is the doctor coming? She said she wanted to give me time to progress overnight so we could see how we were doing in the morning.” I'm aware of the fact that this could take a long time. I told the doctor that. I said, “I'm very patient. I'm not trying to rush this.” She's like, “I'll go check on the doctor and see where she's at.” She comes back in the room and said the doctor was asleep at home. The doctor said she was going to come do the balloon Foley first thing in the morning. I was like, “That's not what we talked about on the phone. The doctor told me she was going to come do it tonight so we could progress overnight and all that stuff.”Me and my husband are sitting in this room. Our kid is at home, our other child and they are not even checking me anymore. They're not monitoring anything. My blood pressure is good. The baby is healthy. I'm like, “Why is there no urgency?” If this was something that needed to be done, why are we not doing anything? I guess that was my concern. As I'm verbally processing this with my husband, the nurse was extremely professional but I felt a vibe. I asked my husband, “Did you feel the same thing when she was affirming what we were discussing verbally?” Just between him and I but I felt like she was like, “Yes. You're not wrong.” The second I said to my husband, “I think we should leave. I feel like this isn't right,” the nurse was like, “I can get you those papers whenever you want them.”She went and I was like, “I think I want them. I don't know. I'm a rule follower. I don't want to risk anything.” My husband was like, “Caitlin, I don't know. I don't know if this is safe,” but I just felt like if there was no urgency to get things moving now, then what's the urgency in waiting until Monday when I could talk to my provider who had encouraged me and said that the VBAC was possible the whole time? So we left against medical advice. It was very intimidating for somebody who was a rule follower. We felt like we were going to be dogs with our tails tucked between our legs walking out of the hospital with our bags on our shoulders. I was like, “Oh my gosh, those nurses are going to watch us and think we are causing harm to our baby.” But as we were walking out, it was the coolest thing ever. All of the nurses, I think they could tell that I was a little bit insecure about my decision or just not sure, but they were giving me thumbs-ups and silent, “You've got this” clapping. I was like, Oh my gosh, okay. This wasn't a dumb call. One nurse stood up and said to me as we were about to leave the door, “Thank you so much for advocating for your own health and standing firm in the decisions that you want to make for your birth.” It was so affirming for me. Meagan: I seriously have chills and goosebumps right now just hearing you say that and her saying that to you and you being able to leave feeling that especially when you felt like it was right, but then the way the world makes us feel about going against medical advice, you had that, Oh, I don't know if I should be doing this feeling as you were walking out. To have that advocacy as you were walking out I'm sure put so much power in your pocket. Caitlin: Totally. Totally, totally. That nurse was life-changing for me and I just felt okay going into the next day waiting to see my doctor whom I thought was going to be on my team with all of this stuff that I had been sticking up for. I get to my doctor on Monday. I rested for the weekend. There was nothing crazy. We just relaxed. I got a blood pressure cuff to monitor. It wasn't good. It was elevated but it never got to that zone where it was on Friday night when I went in. I went to my doctor on Monday. My blood pressure was elevated but not very high. He said, “Let's have you just lay low. Let's check you again on Thursday morning.” I went in Thursday morning and it had gotten higher again. He was like, “I'm not comfortable playing this game with your past and how your baby was the first time around.” He was like, “Let's not do that. Let's not push it to that point again and see.” I agreed with him in that. I was like, “Yeah, no. We're now playing Russian Roulette of it's high. It's not as high. It's high. It's not as high.” I was like, “Okay, great. What are we going to do to get the VBAC going? How do you usually approach this?” He completely froze. He was like, “Wait, no. I think we're going to do a C-section.” I was like, “What?” I was shocked and so confused and still only at 1 centimeter. I was like, “What are we talking about here? This is not what I said to you at every appointment.” My husband knew. He saw it all over my face. I was like, “Where is this coming from?” My doctor said, “I'll let you guys talk about it.” He left the room for a minute. When he left, my husband was like, “Caitlin, we have to trust our doctor.” I was like, “I do trust the doctor, but I trust what I know more,” then he was like, “You're not a doctor.” I was like, “No, I know but I've heard enough where these stories come into play.” All of the stories that I heard of people who had been successful with this, that's where it all comes into play and that's why I'm so passionate about sharing this because that's what made me be like, No. I know it can work and I've heard of it working. I went on. I think my doctor came in and he thought that he was going to come into a room and us be like, “Okay, yeah. We have to do what we have to do,” and no. Instead, I was like, “I would like to give myself all chances for a vaginal birth.” Now again, I said this before. “I am not scared of a C-section. I had a great experience. I recovered really well but I want to give myself a shot at this.” A question I should have asked way previously was about the balloon Foley thing but here I am, he was still positive the whole time that I just assumed that surely, if push came to shove, we would know what we were going to do. He told me that he had ever only done one and he doesn't really know or feel comfortable doing another. He said that I might not be dilated to get one in. Meagan: Okay. Caitlin: I was like, “Okay. Well, typically that's how you approach inducing a VBAC.” Meagan: Yeah. Caitlin: I was like, “Okay.” I told my husband, “I don't know what either of you want me to say. I would like to do a balloon Foley.” My doctor was like, “I don't feel comfortable.” Meagan: Did he say why? What about it didn't make him feel comfortable? Caitlin: He said he had only ever really done one. Meagan: That's why. Caitlin: I was like, “I'll be your second.” Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin: Then it was more so the approach of, “I don't think one would fit.” That might be true. I don't really even know. I was at a 1 so I don't know but– Meagan: Usually if you're at a 1, and even people without an open cervix like even at half a centimeter, they can get it in. It's usually a little less pleasant, but typically a Foley will go in. Sometimes the cervix is still posterior which is also a sign that our baby is not ready to come, but if so, it can go out and around. One in his whole career? He's only placed one? That seems kind of crazy to me. Caitlin: That's what he told me. That's what he told me. I'm like, “Okay. Here's what I need you to do. Phone a friend or I will.” The power of Google, I started to Google local doctors in the area who were VBAC-friendly who were at the same hospital I had already been registered at and all of those things. He looked at me like I was absolutely insane. My husband did a little bit too, but I was like, “No. Find somebody then. If you won't do it, find somebody who will.” It was very awkward because when he did find a doctor who would do it for me, that was great. I was in the room or whatever and they were– he wasn't at the hospital when I got the balloon Foley, but the doctor who would, before I left my actual doctor's office, all of those nurses were very not on board with the call that I was making so that's an awkward feeling to be like, Okay. Everybody in this room thinks that I'm doing something wrong. It felt really good to leave. It felt good to go get to the hospital with a new set of nurses and a different doctor doing it. All went well. She placed it just fine. I'm so grateful that she was willing to just pop in for a patient that wasn't even her own. We got to the hospital around 12:15 and I had a male nurse. He was awesome. I was at a 1.5 when I got there so more than a 1. The doctor who did the Foley for me was great. When she got it in, she said she might have broken my water. She wasn't sure. She couldn't tell. It was pretty tight. It wasn't comfortable but I wouldn't describe it as painful. They started low-dose Pitocin and we hung out basically. I waited on that Foley to do its job and yeah. From noon until 6:00 PM, I was dilating. Things were happening and I think I got the epidural and it fell out right about the same time. I got the epidural right before it fell out. My contractions were picking up and coming really fast which was interesting because I just didn't expect it to happen that quickly. Everybody told me, the doctor on the phone, everybody told me, “It's going to take forever. Forever. You're not going to dilate. It's going to take forever.” It really wasn't taking forever because I had been there from noon to 6:00 and things were happening. The nurse I had was wonderful, wonderful. He was super helpful. He was super team VBAC. You've got this. When it came time for my shift change, I was so bummed. He was like, “I'll get a good one for you. I'll get a good one for you.” When the nurse came into the room, she was so excited it was me. It was the nurse who stood up and told me, “Thank you for advocating for yourself and how you want to bring your baby into the world.” She was just amazing and she was so excited it was me. I was so excited it was her and that was just a huge full-circle moment. She was like, “You're doing it. You've got it.” I was like, “Girl, you have no idea.” Once the balloon fell out, we spent the night repositioning just to keep things moving along. At midnight, the doctor came in to check and see, “Okay, did your water break when I put the balloon in or did it not?” It turned out that my water was already broken, but she also said there was pooling of a lot of blood. I was losing a lot of blood. She was very confused by that. She did a rushed ultrasound in fear of placental abruption and she did prepare us that if that was the case, I would be going back for an immediate C-section. My husband thinks it's funny. He made a joke, “Well that would have made all of this worth the time.” I was like, “It's not time for that but whatever.” That would have been a bummer if that was the case but there was a lot of bleeding so I knew that if it was placental abruption that we would go back for a C-section and all would be fine. That's the biggest thing that I want to say is that it would have been okay. It wouldn't have been earth-shattering to me. But the placenta looked good. I was like, “Praise be. Let's keep trucking along.” She was going to monitor the bleeding. She wasn't sure where it was coming from. We'll just wait on my body to do its thing. I'm just so grateful that this random doctor, I'd never met her. I never had met this woman but she made me feel that I was the one making the decisions about my body and my baby because that isn't how I had felt by the other three doctors who I had talked to in the process of this up to that point. Meagan: Yeah, which is sad. Three out of four providers made you feel like that versus uplifting, being part of your birth, making choices for yourself and your baby. Caitlin: Totally. Totally. I felt like maybe everybody who was looking at me thought I was maybe a pushover or just didn't know what I was talking about so when I pushed back on things, people backed off and were like, “Oh gosh, we don't want to deal with that girl.” Nobody wants to be that girl but everything continued to go great. We did lots of new positions and dilating was happening fairly quickly. I got to 9. In the morning, that same male nurse requested me again. I loved that. My nurses changed my life. They were amazing and the nurses were my cheer squad. They were amazing. They made me feel like things were going great. Meagan: They were doulas. They were acting as doulas in here. They were requesting you which is awesome and very rare. That's very rare. Caitlin: Yes. They were phenomenal and every time one of the familiar ones came in, I was like, “We're good. I'm good. I trust you with my life.” They were amazing. That was encouraging for me because having a doula wasn't really in our budget unfortunately, but I did need somebody else because my husband is very like, “Yeah, Cait. Whatever you feel passionate about you needing to do,” and he was totally on board, but it was nice to have somebody with a medical background saying, “No, you are doing the right things. Here's how we can progress you forward. Here's what we should do next.” I had never had a vaginal birth. He came back. He requested me. He was my nurse again. Then at 10:00 AM, my contractions became so intense and so on top of each other. I think it was worse that this happened after. I wish I had either never gotten the epidural and built up to that. The taste of having the pain relief and then it going away was not fun at all. It would have been better to just never have had the pain relief at that point. I was at 9 and they called the anesthesiologist. They did a flush of medication to offer some relief. That didn't change anything. So 2 hours later, they came back and he checked. He was like, “Oh, your epidural became dislodged.” I wasn't getting any of the medication that I was getting previously. So unfortunately, at 9 centimeters, you're in full-blown labor labor and they didn't realize for 2 hours what the problem was. Finally, it took my husband saying to somebody, “I don't think she is just feeling intense feelings. I think she is feeling the actual contraction,” which also was discouraging for me because that 2-hour span of no changes was the longest span I had gone with no progression in the entire experience. I was getting nervous about that. I was like, Not only am I in immense, excruciating pain, but why am I not dilating to a 10? Why am I not a 10? What's going on here? The anesthesiologist said to me, “Hey, you're at a 9. You can wait it out and when it's time to push, just push. You don't need the epidural to be working.” I was like, “I could do that, but I also got an epidural for the pain relief.” I was like, “No. I want the relief and I also want to be able to relax and see if that gets me to a 10.” They did place a second epidural. It helped. It took a while. It was basically the whole process restarting. My doctor told me, “Hey, since you were just up for 2 hours with contractions on top of each other, how about you try to rest? I'll check on how you guys are doing in a little bit.” He popped in a few minutes later and asked to check me. I was like, “Yes.” He lifted up the covers and my baby's hair was there in 30 minutes. Meagan: What? You were crowning? Caitlin: Yes!Meagan: Oh my gosh. Caitlin: I went from 2 hours at a 9. They gave me the second epidural and then within 30 minutes, they went to check and they didn't have to check anything because the baby was there. It's funny because we had just reset the room to be dark, comfortable, rest, and it was like, “Nope. Open the blinds. Get ready to go.” It was a crazy turnaround. My husband and I didn't believe it when he said it. We were like, “Hair? Already? We just sat here for 2 hours at a 9.” I never even got measured. Do they measure at a 10?Meagan: I mean, they can go in and be like, “You're complete.” Yeah. Caitlin: Right. Right. It went very fast. I was shocked by that. I pushed for 15 minutes and baby was born. It was smooth sailing from then on out. It was 24 hours total. Everybody's biggest threat to me was, “It's going to take forever. You're going to be there forever. You're going to be doing this forever.” It was 24 hours from start to finish. Baby being born. Baby being healthy. Me getting the VBAC. Me getting the golden hour because with my first, he was straight to the NICU. I didn't get to hold him or anything and I really wanted that. It was super redemptive for me and just super special that my husband and I were in the same room after the baby was born because he went to the NICU with our first. Having the VBAC made me so proud and confident in myself and any future births that I'm blessed with. Now I know. I'm an advocate and other moms can put their foot down for themselves. You have control of what happens to you as you bring a baby into this world. I don't think I knew that before being in the thick of it that I actually did get to make the calls. Meagan: Yes. Caitlin: Yeah. All of these medical things that came up like the high blood pressure and how easy I could have been like, “Okay yeah, whatever you say,” but just because of things that come up in pregnancy, it doesn't mean that you need to get straight to a surgery room. Meagan: I mean look at that. Your blood pressure did go back up to that high range and you didn't just go in and have a C-section. You had a slowly induced VBAC. Did your original male provider ever come back to the scene? Did that provider catch baby? Caitlin: He is the one who when I was stuck at the 9, he was in at that time. Meagan: Okay. Caitlin: He was there from being at 9 centimeters and he is the one who delivered my son. The other doctor came in to check on us after which was super sweet. She was incredible. But yes, he did come back for all of that. There was a sense of me being like, “Huh. This all worked out.” Meagan: Look at that. Caitlin: It all worked out. Would you look at that? It was interesting because he was very much like, “I knew you were determined.” I was like, “Okay, yeah. I was but you were trying to make me not be.” Meagan: Yeah. Caitlin: I don't know. I do believe that he did incredible with my first birth and especially with a first-time mom with that scary of a situation happening. I just think that sometimes it's what's more comfortable. It makes me sad because if that was my first baby, I literally would have not ended up in the situation I was in. I just wonder how many moms get put in these positions and then have to make– don't get to make the call because they don't know they can make the call. They don't know they are the ones who get to make the choice. Meagan: Yeah, exactly. It goes back to the review where it says that this podcast is for people who have had a previous Cesarean but also for people who haven't had a previous Cesarean and who haven't had these experiences and who may not have that full education yet. Caitlin: Right. Meagan: I think this podcast is so great for people who want to learn what happens out there and what could happen and what your options are and how people advocate for themselves. I'm so grateful for the nursing staff. Caitlin: Oh my gosh. They were so amazing. When we got moved to the other room after the baby was born, the nurse who was there when I signed my AMAs and stuff, the one who did all that with us, she came into the room and was clapping. She was like, “You did it!” Everybody was so on our team which was truly incredible. That meant everything for us. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, go ahead. Caitlin: Another thing just for new moms too who haven't gone through it, the recovery is different. C-section moms are absolute heroes. They are tough as nails but also, the doctors were telling me, “You're so young and you'll bounce back so fast from a second section. It's not that bad. You healed great the first time.” That's all true. But the recovery was different because I didn't have a major abdominal surgery. Meagan: Yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories. Thank you for advocating for yourself and being an example to others on how to advocate for themselves. We know with preeclampsia that it really can be an overnight serious thing but it doesn't always mean that you have to just go and have a C-section. There are so many times where I see births where we have preeclampsia with really high blood pressures and proteins and all of the things. We go in for an induction and then it's managed. The blood pressure is managed throughout the entire rest of the pregnancy so I don't know. There's that. I just want to say there is that. Caitlin: There is. Meagan: A lot of times, providers say, “Oh, your blood pressure is so high. Labor would be far too stressful,” but there are so many ways to help manage the blood pressure. We do know that sometimes there are medically emergent reasons to go in and have a C-section but it doesn't always mean you have to. We have a preeclampsia blog. We are going to drop it in the show notes so if you want to learn more about preeclampsia and the risk factors and how to prevent it because there are ways that we can try to prevent them– getting our omega 3's, calcium, choline, getting a good salt intake, getting really, really great rich foods, proteins, fruits, vegetables. The Brewer's Diet is another amazing thing to check out. They have a whole preeclampsia section. Definitely check these things out. If you also have had preeclampsia before like Caitlin, the risks of having it again are slightly higher just because we've had it and things like that so if you've had it before, definitely check this out even before getting pregnant. I think there is a lot of preparing to do before we get pregnant. Sometimes it happens no matter what efforts you've had. Maybe you've done all of the things. Sometimes it just happens and it's out of our control. Like Caitlin was just talking to me about this before, she doesn't struggle with high blood pressure. It just comes during pregnancy. Caitlin: Mhmm. Yeah. My hope is that in future pregnancies that I wouldn't have high blood pressure again, but if I do, I just feel more equipped and more confident in how I want to manage that. Meagan: Exactly. Caitlin: Yeah. It's hard because when you are being told things by medical providers who do know what they are saying in regard to some extent and you want to continue to be like, “I'm going to do what's safest throughout my baby,” but my favorite question throughout my whole experience was, “If my baby is okay, if my blood pressure is lowering, then why are we making the decisions that we are making?” That's the pillar that my husband and I lived on in those disagreement conversations. Meagan: I wanted to point out before we go just piggybacking off of that that it is okay to ask questions. You can say, “Okay, but why?” or “What is the evidence on that?” or “What are the medical reasons you are suggesting for this or that?” You can ask questions, Women of Strength. That is advocating for yourself. Ask the questions so that you can make the final decision. Caitlin: If they don't have an answer, it's probably because there isn't an answer. Meagan: Right? And/or if there is some gaslighting happening, that probably means there is also not an answer but they are trying to create an answer and make you feel scared or like you would be stupid to make that choice.Caitlin: Mhmm. Mhmm. I really wish all nurses were like the ones we had. We had awesome nurses. Meagan: They sound incredible, absolutely incredible. Caitlin: They were. Meagan: Shoutout to them. Happy birthday again. Congratulations. Caitlin: Thank you so much. Thank you. Meagan: We will talk to you later. Caitlin: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Join us on this episode of the Birth Journeys as Brenda shares how birth choosing to be induced for her second birth possibly led to an emergency cesarean. She went on to have two VBACs, including one at home then another emergency cesarean. For her 6th baby, she chose a planned cesarean even though it went against everything she knew and trusted about birth.  This episode covers hospital birth, Epidural birth, emergency cesarean, VBAC, Homebirth after cesarean, planned cesarean, gentle cesarean, and postpartum depression.  Resources:  The VBAC Link: https://www.thevbaclink.com The Birth Hour: https://open.spotify.com/show/3I301uCFd2MABesqWKJMG7?si=hD_nWaJFQ8qtcHLiCQvbFg   Ina Mays Guide to Childbirth: https://a.co/d/81kf37c The Business Of Being Born  International Cesareans Awareness Network: https://www.ican-online.org Follow Brenda here: https://www.instagram.com/brendaaamour?igsh=MTY4cWZuZzJseHNrcQ==

Sabina is one of our VBAC-certified doulas from Canada and is sharing her peaceful FBA2C today. While free birth comes with its own risks and benefits, we know that many women feel drawn to this option when they have no support or do not feel safe birthing any other way as Sabina did. We want to share all types of births after Cesarean and honor all stories! The way Sabina trusted in her body and in the physiological birth process after a traumatic experience with HELLP syndrome is truly inspiring. Among the many important messages from this episode, Meagan says: “If you are a provider listening and you perform C-sections, please, please hear what we are saying today. What you say to us while we are on the table in the most vulnerable position… impacts us. Every word that comes out of your mouth, please think about it. Please think about it because it impacts us…I'm getting emotional because I remember my provider talking crap like that and saying things like that. It impacts us longer than you will ever, ever know and it will impact us for every future birth. Please, providers. Please, please, please from the bottom of my heart, I beg of you. Watch what you say to people.” The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC with PreeclampsiaNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Meagan and I'm so excited to be recording wtih you today. You've probably been listening all summer but I've actually not been in the recording studio all summer. I record up until May until my kids get out of school then I take June and July off so I can be with my kids and save you guys from the screaming and the dog barking and all of that in the background. It's August and we are back in the studio and we have our friend, Sabina. Hello. Sabina: Hello. Meagan: I'm so excited to have her on today. You guys, she is one of our VBAC-certified doulas which is so exciting. She is also a mama of three. She is a FBA2C. Okay, you guys. F is a new one. We haven't been sharing a lot of F. We've had H and V and breech B so what does F stand for?Sabina: F stands for free birth which means I did not have any kind of provider with me during my pregnancy or during my birth. I just did it all by myself. Meagan: Yep, you did. Sometimes I feel like it's a mother-led pregnancy. Sabina: Yes. Yes. Meagan: This is something. We've talked about this a little bit before we got recording. The world, when we look at free birth, frowns deeply upon it. It's not for everyone. Sabina: No. Meagan: That's why a good majority doesn't. However, I think it's important to share these free birth stories. They are still beautiful stories and it doesn't mean because you didn't have a provider that your story doesn't deserve to be heard, right?Sabina: Right. Meagan: I think that it's also important to talk a little bit about the fact that so many people are not getting the support. You're going to tell us a little bit more about why you chose free birth, but the world as we know it is not VBAC-supportive in many ways, in most ways. Sabina: Still. Meagan: Yeah, as we know. You are in Canada, right?Sabina: Yep. Meagan: We know that there are some hurdles there too. Even here in Utah, over the last 10 years of me being a doula and having babies of my own, I've watched the VBAC support wane and actually wane in the less-ideal way which is really unfortunate. We have a lot of people who try. They try and find the support. They try and get what they deserve. You deserve support. Women of Strength, no matter who you are or where you are, you deserve support. Most people who choose to free birth ran out of those options and decide that they are still going to do what's best for them. That is what Sabina did and I'm excited for her to share her stories. In addition to free birth, we have some other little things in there. HELLP syndrome, if you've ever heard of HELLP syndrome you guys, or if you haven't ever heard of HELLP syndrome, we're going to talk more about that and what that looks like, the symptoms and things like that, and what it could mean. Then larger babies and then yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about VBAC doulas too because we love our VBAC doulas. I don't know. Are you serving right now? Sabina: I am, yeah. Meagan: You have a new babe, but you are. Okay, if you are in Canada– and where are you again?Sabina: I'm in Ottawa. Meagan: Ottawa. Okay, you guys, give her a call. You can find her on our website at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Sabina: I don't have a website but my Instagram is @letsdoulathisvbac. Meagan: Let's doula this. We will make sure to tag her so just go to today's Instagram or Facebook and find her. We do have a Review of the Week so we will jump into that and then get into your beautiful stories. This review is by mitaya. I don't know. I think it's probably an abbreviation. I don't know. Maybe it's a name but it says, “I vote this place on over the speaker in every OB/GYN office.” I love that. It says, “I cannot even begin to describe what an encouragement these podcasts have been for me. I have completely binged on these in the past few weeks and they have grown my confidence for my up and coming baby. I cannot stop sharing everything I am learning and even helping to encourage first-time moms on how to educate themselves to avoid a Cesarean in the first place.” Ding, ding, ding. We're actually going to have an episode about that, y'all. So if you're ready to share an episode with a first-time mom, it's coming up. “Thank you so much for this no-B.S., truth-declaring, and empowering platform that I know has encouraged so many more than just myself. Keep being amazing. I can't wait to share our story in just a few short months. All of my love.”Thank you so much for your review and I hope that you had your VBAC and had a beautiful birth. If you are still listening with us, let us know. Give us a shoutout on my email or on Facebook or Instagram. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Sabina. Are you ready to dive in to these beautiful stories? Sabina: I am. Meagan: Let's do it. Sabina: This is surreal because I've been picturing this whole pregnancy how I would talk about things if I was on the podcast. Every time I had a symptom, I thought about how I would say it on a podcast so it's very cool to actually get to do it. Meagan: Tell us all of the things. Here you are. Sabina: Okay. I'll start with my first birth. I was pregnant in 2019 and I had one appointment with an OB then realized it wasn't for me. I switched to midwives and had a perfectly uncomplicated pregnancy. I'm very athletic so I was in shape working out the whole time. No symptoms of anything other than heartburn and some rib pain. We had midwives who were great and then around 41 weeks, actually on 41 weeks to the day, we had our ultrasound just to make sure everything was going well. When we got there, I started getting a lot of pain in my right side. Again, I had rib pain so I just brushed it off. It's nothing. I had seen my midwives the day before and everything looked good. Blood pressure was fine. We were sitting in the waiting room and it just kept getting more and more uncomfortable. I started sweating and I asked my husband if we could just step outside for a bit then I remembered one of my friends saying that when she was in labor, she would put her arms around her husband and just dangle to open everything. I tried that hoping it would relieve some pressure and I just started panicking. My husband who was very naive at the time was like, “Oh, this is it. You're in labor.” I was like, “No. This is not right. It's not going away.” Meagan: Something's off. Sabina: Something's off. We went back in and I asked the receptionist if I could just go lie down. They brought me into a room and at this point, I couldn't sit still. We called my midwife and she asked if I was prone to panic attacks and I said, “No, I've never had one.” They checked the baby and he was totally fine. But my midwife was like, “Okay, I'll meet you at the hospital.” We called the ambulance and this is where it starts to get fuzzy. I was in shock. I couldn't remember everything but we took an ambulance and the only reason we took an ambulance was because I thought they would help but they didn't do anything. They just waited and took me to the hospital. I spent the ride on my hands and knees and when we got to the hospital, my blood pressure was 275/174. Again, we had just checked it the day before and it was totally normal, 121/80. My midwife was there and they asked if they could check my cervix just to see if it was a bizarre labor and I was barely a centimeter. I was still very posterior so nothing was really happening. I do remember my mom quickly poking her head in. My husband must have called her but then they were like, “Okay, let's do a C-section.” I don't remember a lot. I remember as soon as they gave me the epidural, I could relax. Everything just went away. I briefly remember seeing my husband and being like, “Oh my god. We're going to have a baby.”I remember hearing him cry. They showed him to me the first time. I also had a cyst on one of my ovaries so they showed me that. It was kind of cool. Then in the recovery room, I very briefly remember trying to feed my son and then I told them that my vision was jumping around and I couldn't focus so they handed him over to my husband and then I don't remember anything else. Basically, they never treated my blood pressure. They just–Meagan: Wait, they didn't do anything? They were just like, “We've got to get the baby out” type thing then they ignored the astronomically high blood pressure?Sabina: Yes. Meagan: Okay. Sabina: Even though the baby was fine because we had just had the ultrasound and checked everything, they completely neglected the blood pressure. Obviously, it dropped when I got the epidural because it gets rid of the pain so it goes down a bit. Later, I found out that they had the medication ready, they just never gave it to me. So as soon as the epidural wore off, my blood pressure shot right back up and I ended up having a seizure. My husband, I mean I don't remember any of it, but my husband was kicked out into the hall shirtless holding our newborn not knowing what was going on. My parents were down the hall and heard the code blue and just knew it was for me. Then I was just talking to my mom about it yesterday. She said that they were at the nurse's station demanding to know what was going on. They were telling her to calm down and they just sent them to see my husband. He was in a dark room by himself with a newborn who was crying because he probably wanted to eat or whatever. He just looked like he was a ghost. He didn't know what was going on. It was horrible. Even to this day, it hurts knowing that that was his entrance into parenthood. Meagan: And both of your experiences too. His entrance and both of your experiences. It didn't start off very positively. Sabina: No. Definitely not. I remember seeing my dad briefly and then I don't remember anything until the next day. I woke up and my dad was there and I just said, “What happened?” He told me I had a seizure and then the first couple days, I don't remember much. My son was in the NICU just because I couldn't take care of him and they would bring him to me once in a while so I could feed him. My mom said she noticed that every time he was with me, my blood pressure would drop obviously. It makes sense. She advocated for him to get to stay with me. I started breastfeeding even though I was honestly half-dead. They told my family the day it happened that the next 24 hours would determine which direction I went so it was pretty scary. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sabina: Yeah. Pretty scary. We ended up getting a private room in the ICU and my son was allowed to stay with me as long as somebody else was there. My mom and husband just kept switching off. The nurses were phenomenal. Every nurse we had was great. They brought us a full cart of baby supplies because we had nothing. We didn't even have a hospital bag but I saw every other person in the hospital. It was incredibly frustrating. We saw residents. We saw random specialists who had nothing to do with me. We saw interns. I never saw the same doctor twice and I was there for a week.Meagan: Whoa. Sabina: Yeah. We kept being told by one doctor that, “Okay, if your blood pressure stays below this level for the next 24 hours, you get to go home.” Then the next day, a doctor would come on and I'd say, “Okay, it stayed below. Can we go home?” They were like, “Oh no, no, no. You're probably here for the next several days.” It was back and forth like that and it was incredibly frustrating. Eventually, I left against medical advice because I knew I couldn't heal in the hospital. I knew I needed to go home. We went home with two blood pressure medications and by day two, I had to stop taking them because my blood pressure was so low. Meagan: Whoa. Sabina: Obviously, I made the right choice. It got to the point where I could hardly get out of bed and I was so lethargic because of the blood pressure being so low. Meagan: Your body truly was responding. It was in that flight/fight mode where you're probably so tense the whole time you were there. Your body was not able to even try to recover. Sabina: Yeah. I mean, that was our first week as parents. It was in the hospital. Eventually, we got moved to the labor and delivery ward but still, we were not home. We weren't comfortable. We were bored because we were just there and then we're seeing everybody and their uncle at the hospital coming in because I was a unique case. It was super frustrating. I do want to mention with the HELLP syndrome that my kidneys were failing. I had swelling in my brain. I had to get one MRI or two CTs or the other way around. I only remember one of them. Meagan: Your liver obviously. Sabina: Yes, yeah. My liver was definitely not ideal. Meagan: That was the start of the pain. Sabina: Yeah, again, I thought that was the rib pain. Meagan: Kind of up there. Sabina: I was perfectly healthy. Yeah. I was perfectly healthy. I had worked out that morning. Meagan: Wow. Sabina: I felt totally fine. It was very sudden. Meagan: Did you have any other symptoms like headache, blurred vision, swelling, nausea? Sabina: Not until after that pain. After the C-section, my vision was jumping. Meagan: Yeah, you said. Sabina: Yeah. I couldn't focus and then the next two days, right here on my head on the right side had severe pain. Nothing would help. They were giving me pain meds and stuff and nothing was helping so eventually, I just stopped taking them. But beforehand, there was absolutely nothing. They didn't test my blood or urine because it wasn't routine to check it at that time and they had no reason to check it but it was very, very sudden and very severe. Because they didn't deal with the blood pressure, I still wonder to this day if they had dealt with it or tried. Meagan: Given you magnesium or something. Sabina: If it wouldn't have been as severe of a reaction or a problem. Meagan: Yeah. Sabina: It's very frustrating to look back. Of course, after that I had PTSD but I didn't know that I had PTSD and the support wasn't really there. My midwife was like, “Well, of course, you're going to have some hard times,” but that was kind of it. That was the only support I got. My sister actually was pregnant at the same time and was due a month later. She got induced because she just went past her due date and I was so upset when she was in labor because I was so jealous. It's a horrible feeling because you're happy for them but I was just so jealous. My midwife came over that day. Again, there wasn't really much support surrounding that. It was just like, “Yeah, that's normal. Move on.” My sister ended up getting a C-section just because she got the cascade of interventions. It was a typical story. For the next year, it was extremely difficult mentally. Any time I tried to talk to somebody about it, it was always like, “Well, you have a healthy baby,” so trying to justify that everything was worth it because the baby is healthy. Again, I didn't tell my family how much I was struggling but anytime like for example, I would talk to my mom about it and be like, “I missed all of those moments with him like the first night. I wasn't with him at all.” She would always say something like, “Well, he was taken care of,” because she was there. I'm super grateful that they were there, but it would crush me inside because–Meagan: But not by me. Sabina: It should have been me. All of those moments should have been me. Then toward my son's first birthday, we were talking about his birthday party and again, my sister did not mean anything by this because she just didn't know what I was going through but she was like, “Well, you didn't really give birth so we'll call it his removal day.” I just played it off like it was fine, but my insides just crumbled. Meagan: That would impact me. That just made me have a little bit of an ick. I'm sure she didn't mean any harm by that, right? But that just gave me the ick. Sabina: Yeah, she didn't mean harm at all. So I just would play these things off and smile and nod sort of thing, but inside it just crushed me. Meagan: I'm sorry. Sabina: I never thought that I would have a C-section. You just don't think that's going to happen to you. His first birthday was really hard and then after that, I just started looking forward to the next one which was good but also not good because I didn't really do any healing or recovering. I just was like, “Okay, it's done. Let's move on.” So my second birth was in 2021 and it was more of a classic unsupportive provider scenario. I went with the same midwife because she was amazing during our first birth and I had a lot of trust with her. She was amazing but she told me I needed to see high-risk as well. I went to see the high-risk doctor and he did not want to see me. He just was l​​ike, “You are a pretty low high-risk because it happened so late in your pregnancy. Take baby aspirin. Get some extra ultrasounds. We don't need to see you.” I said, “Great. That's perfect. I don't care.” But my midwife was like, “Nope. You need to see him every month if you want to continue with us.” Meagan: Was that the protocol of their staff or was that just her opinion giving her comfort of you seeing an OB?Sabina: Yep. I think it was her comfort because she said that then if something did happen, we had him on hand sort of thing. Meagan: Okay. Sabina: I still wanted a home birth. I wanted a home birth with my first. Obviously, it didn't happen so I still was totally comfortable. I knew it wasn't going to happen again. We were going to take every precaution but my midwife was like, “Nope. It's too risky because you are a VBAC and you've had that happen, we can't support you in a home birth.” Again, I didn't know all of the red flags at this time and I just trusted her too much to think otherwise. I pretty much left every midwife appointment crying because any time I had tried to be positive and be like, “Okay, well if I can't deliver at home, I'll deliver at the hospital,” they'd be like, “No. You can't deliver at this hospital. You have to go to a higher-level hospital.” Those were the ones where I stayed in the ICU for a week so I didn't want to go there. Meagan: Triggering. Sabina: Yeah, and that's where I had to go for the high-risk too. I was going there once a month and then 2-3 times a month toward the end of this hospital where we had been through all of this trauma. Eventually, I asked if I could do the appointments over the phone because you'd get the ultrasound then you'd have to wait 2-3 hours to see the doctor because they were always so behind. I checked my blood pressure. I was just like, “Can you just call me?” That was fine so it made it that much easier. Yeah. Eventually, my midwife said that if everything was fine by a certain point, she would talk to the OB at the hospital that I wanted to deliver at and see what they thought. Ultimately, they said I had to transfer to OB care if I wanted to deliver there. It was stupid. Again, another red flag. I had to be induced and yada, yada, yada. There were all of these stipulations and everything needed to be what they needed. We saw the OB once and I did not– we were in and out in 5 minutes. I did not like it. She could not have cared less about me. It was very obvious. My midwife said that starting at 38 weeks, we should try and do stretch and sweeps every few days to get things going before my due date. Meagan: She really wanted you to have a baby before that 41-week mark. Sabina: Yes, exactly. She was more scared than we were. Even my husband wasn't as scared and he is a very anxious person. Yeah. We started doing the stretch and sweeps and again, I should have refused but you don't know what you don't know at that point. I found The VBAC Link when I was 37 weeks so I wish I had found it earlier so that I could have done the course and saw all of these red flags and had taken things into my own hands. Eventually, we kept going in to get induced but we got sent home because there were no beds. Again, I was like, “Why are we doing this then? I'm obviously not high on their priority list.” Eventually, we went in. They broke my water. We waited to see if anything would happen and nothing did. They started Pitocin. For the first 6 hours on Pitocin, I was able to handle it but my husband and I were so uncomfortable in the hospital room mentally, physically, and emotionally. We didn't want to be there. We were never in the room alone so we couldn't be ourselves because there were strangers there. I eventually asked for the epidural. I told my midwife that if I asked for the epidural, try everything else first, then do the epidural. As soon as I asked for the epidural, she was just like, “Okay, let's do it.” No pushback, so that was super frustrating as well. We got the epidural then 2 hours later, a different OB came in, checked me, and was like, “No. You are not dilating. It's not working. You need a C-section.” Again, I didn't know this at the time, but she said there was no progress but I had dilated a centimeter. I had fully effaced and– yes, fully. Not just a little bit. Fully effaced. Meagan: If everybody could see my face right now, I'm like, what? That's not change or progress?Sabina: Then my cervix had come forward too. Meagan: Big changes all around. Sabina: Big changes. Big changes, just not fast enough for this doctor. I knew it wasn't necessary. I waited for my midwife to come in and fight for me and she just went along with it. I was like, “What? No.” I didn't know I had the right to just say, “No, I'm not doing that.” Neither did my husband. Meagan: Even though you had the right, it's still very hard. Sabina: It's very hard. Meagan: It's a very difficult thing to be like, “Actually, no. I've got two medical professionals here telling me what I should do but I think no and how do I say that?” Sabina: Yeah, and you're already in such a vulnerable state then there is all that negative energy too which really affects me. I'm a highly sensitive person so energies really affect me. Meagan: You were proof in your first birth too. As soon as that doctor walked in, I could feel that negative energy. I knew she didn't care about me. She wasn't in this job for the right reasons. I bawled and my husband tried to comfort me. He was like, “It's going to be different. We're going to remember everything. We know what's happening this time.” I just kept saying, “Yeah, but we don't need it. The baby is fine. I'm fine. It's just not necessary.”Anyway, eventually, we had the C-section and I just laid there on the table sobbing. I did obviously remember everything but I was just miserable. I was pumped full of every drug so I was exhausted. I think it really affected the bonding experience between me and my baby. That first night with my son, I wanted him constantly. I wanted him on me. I didn't want anyone to take him with her. I wanted her to sleep separately so I could sleep which is very unlike me. I really think all of the Pitocin and everything blocked my natural hormone releases. While I was lying on the table, my husband and the baby got taken away to the recovery room and I was just trying to rest. The OB was like, “So do you want more kids?” I was like, “Yeah.” She was like, “Well, they'll all have to be C-sections,” while I was laying on the table after sobbing that whole time. It was just horrible. Meagan: I don't want to interrupt you but I do because I want to point out to everyone that especially if you are a provider listening and you perform C-sections, please, please hear what we are saying today. What you say to us while we are on the table in the most vulnerable position– some of us are strapped down to a table– what you say to us impacts us. Every word that comes out of your mouth, please think about it. Please think about it because it impacts us and it impacts us longer– I'm getting emotional because I remember my provider talking crap like that and saying things like that. It impacts us longer than you will ever, ever know and it will impact us for every future birth. Please, providers. Please, please, please from the bottom of my heart, I beg of you. Watch what you say to people. Okay, sorry. Keep going. Sabina: That's okay. I totally agree with you. The lack of bedside manner, especially for VBACs because when you've gone through a C-section, even if it was planned or whatever, it still can be traumatic and they just don't get it. She even told me, “I had 3 C-sections. Once your baby is out, you won't care how it happened.” It's like, good for you but not everybody is the same as you. Maybe you don't care about birth experiences but lots of women do. It was super frustrating. We stayed one night in the hospital and then left. Of course, the PTSD came back. The midwives all tried to tell me that the C-section was necessary because her hands were up over her face so she wouldn't have come out anyway but their stories weren't the same so I realized that they were lying and were just trying to justify that it was necessary. Meagan: Yeah. That's unfortunate.Sabina: Yeah. The PTSD came back and I it got to a point– I can't remember how many months my daughter was but I was visiting with a neighbor and I was talking about my experiences and I was like, “Next time, I'm going to have a VBAC. I'm going to do whatever it takes to have a VBAC.” She was like, “Why would you even try that?” I was like, “What do you mean?” She was like, “Well, there's the risk of rupture so why would you even do that when you could just have a C-section?” It broke me. I came home. I bawled to my husband and a few days later, I was still really upset about it. He didn't know how to help which is fair and he was just like, “Maybe you need to see a therapist.” I'm sure there are some out there, but I couldn't find any that fit here and therapy is not something that I thought would help me. I know it helps lots of people so I started looking up my symptoms and things. I found out that it was PTSD. It got to a point where I was like, okay. I need to fix this for myself. I took The VBAC Link Course which already was super helpful just because I felt empowered going forward. I knew that my potentially both C-sections weren't necessary but definitely the second one. I knew the risks and benefits of having a vaginal birth after two C-sections. I had all of the proof in front of me. Then it also pushed me to become a doula. I've always wanted to be in the birth world. I became a nurse to work in obstetrics but then left nursing after 4 years because it just wasn't for me. I was like, “This is what I'm meant to do.”I wish I had known about doulas for my other two births. I took a doula course and then I took The VBAC Link Doula Course and within a month of starting my doula page, I already had a VBAC client who reached out which was super exciting. She got in with the midwives that I had, with the particular midwife that I had. I was like, “Okay. Maybe this is a good thing. Maybe I can teach her about VBACs.” The first appointment, she was great apparently then after that, it was constantly, “Well, you have this so maybe we should do a hospital birth or you have this.” Every time she saw them, they were trying to push her to a hospital birth. She ended up having a free birth with me which was really cool. Meagan: She did? Really? Sabina: I told her from the get-go, “If that's something you want, I'm here for you. I'm totally comfortable with that.” Her original plan was just to maybe not call the midwives unless she felt something was wrong but then after some of those appointments, she was like, “No. They're not coming. We're not calling them. If we need help, we'll just go to the hospital.” Yeah. She had a free birth and it was awesome. It was great to be there. I was 14 weeks pregnant at the time so it was great for me. I actually met my doula a year before we even tried to conceive because I wanted to be prepared. She wasn't a VBAC doula, but she was newer and very open to the idea of having a home birth after C-sections. We became friends to the point where I actually attended her birth 3 months before she attended mine. Meagan: Oh my gosh, so cool. Sabina: Yeah, when I got pregnant with this one, I pretty much knew right away that I wasn't going to have a provider. It wasn't for me. I did apply to the midwife groups but every one of them either refused or said I was on the waitlist but I wasn't. As soon as they saw I wanted a home birth after two C-sections, that was thrown out. I mentioned it to my husband once and then the second time I mentioned it, he was fully on board which was mentioned. Meagan: Really? Because you said he was anxious about things yeah. Sabina: Anxious, yeah. But I had been educating him along the way too with everything that I learned. Any time I told him stories of other women who had difficult births or my client who was having these horrible appointments, he would get angry too so yeah. He really had become pretty educated on the topic which was amazing. He was very comfortable with our doula as well. He was like, “She's really knowledgeable.” We had a plan in place for if there was an actual emergency and if I wanted to transfer for whatever other reason. We had it set up and most other things I felt like I could handle myself unless it was one of the few very serious emergencies. My mindset going into this birth was amazing. I read daily affirmations to myself before bed and then I would listen to her heartbeat. I could hear it with a stethoscope around 15 weeks so every night I would listen to her heartbeat and I just felt so connected and so in tune with my body and my intuition which was something that kept getting shut down with my other births I found. It was the most stress-free pregnancy. We didn't do any tests. We got a couple of ultrasounds just because I like seeing the baby and I'm a very visual person but that was it. Both me and my husband were like, “This is amazing. We're just living our lives normally and not these stipulations and all of these worries being pushed on us.” I was checking my blood pressure but I just eventually was like, I don't really feel like I need to do this. It was very low. It was 90/50 for most of the pregnancy so I was like, I'm fine. I was still taking the aspirin just as a precaution but that was it. I wasn't in a rush. I wasn't like, baby has to be out at a certain time. I was just like, let's let things happen because we didn't get that opportunity with the last two. I had my mucus plug start to come out around 39 weeks and 4 or 5 days which was very exciting but I told my husband that it doesn't really mean much. Things are happening as they should. A couple of days later, the bloody show came out as well. Again, I was like, “We are fine. This could be going on for weeks. Whatever.”Then that night, so it was actually the morning of my due date, I had prodromal labor. I started feeling contractions and of course, I got excited but it started I think at 4:00 in the morning. I just sat there and breathed through them. They weren't intense. They were very easy to get through then me and my husband got everything ready when he got up then it stopped. I was like, “Okay, whatever. My body is just practicing.” For the next week or so, the mucus plug kept coming out throughout the week just in little bits. I didn't have any other contractions until– I have it written down here– the night of July 3rd into the morning of July 4th so probably 10 hours. I had prodromal labor overnight then it stopped as soon as I got up in the morning. I tried doing the Miles Circuit and both times it stopped the contractions so I was like, okay. Whatever. At least I know how to stop them. Meagan: Sometimes Miles Circuit does stop them because a lot of the times prodromal is a positional thing. Baby is trying to figure it out so the Miles Circuit helps with position and if it moves baby, it can stop them. Sabina: Yep. I was a little bit frustrated that day because I was like, I'm losing sleep now. I don't know if I should rest during the day because I still could be weeks away from giving birth. I was like, “We need to stay busy. We need to have plans for every day just so I don't feel like I'm rushing.”Meagan: Take your mind off of it. Sabina: Yeah. We kept busy that day then we were sitting after dinner. Around 8:00 PM I started feeling them again and I was like, “Great. Another night of no sleep. Okay, whatever.” The second night I had them, they were stronger than that first time but I could still breathe through them and stay lying down. That night they were even stronger which is odd because usually prodromal labor is the same. Meagan: It's monotone, yeah. Sabina: But these ones, I couldn't lay down which was really frustrating because I was so tired. I had to keep getting up. I tried doing the Miles Circuit and it didn't help so I was like, “Okay, I guess I'm going to stay awake all night.” In the morning, I got up and I was waiting for them to stop. I tried to have a hot shower and they were still going. It was 10:00 in the morning at this point and the other ones had always stopped at 8:00. I was like, “Okay. Maybe this is something.” My husband was like, “Get Jess here.” I was like, “Well, I'm fine though. I don't need the help.” But I texted her to let her know what was going on and then for my husband's sake, told her to come because I knew he needed that comfort. We called her and we called our friend who was going to come watch the kids. For the whole day, I was contracting and dealing with it beautifully. I was breathing through it no problem. I was excited every time I got a contraction. I wasn't timing them because I felt like that was stressing me out. I felt like they needed to be a certain length and a certain time apart. I stopped timing them and it was just really nice. Our friend was taking the kids swimming. Me and my doula were mulling around the house and she would play with the kids too. It was like we were all just hanging out. It was so peaceful. Then around 4:00, she does reflexology, my doula, so she got me to lay down and did some acupressure stuff on my feet. While she was doing that, I had a really big contraction and after that they pretty much stayed. I think that was the shift into active labor. My husband made everybody dinner which was nice and I was just in the kitchen picking up the food while going through contractions. Eventually, the kids went to bed and our friend left. At this point, it was 8:00 at night. I had the TENS machine on. I had been going back and forth from the toilet because the toilet is the dilaton station. Any time I had to go to the bathroom, I would stay there for 4-5 contractions. Again, I was still fully in control and mentally fully aware. I was happy in between contractions so around 9:30, I decided to get in the tub because they were still increasing. My husband and doula were both there. My husband and I really got to connect during this labor and he was so present. I had asked him after my previous births if he was proud of me. He was like, “I don't know if I would say proud.” He didn't mean it negatively, but it just hurt that he wasn't. So throughout this labor, anytime I looked at him, he'd tell me how proud he was of what I was doing or he would tell me how amazing I was and it was just so nice. He could hold me and we could just be ourselves without feeling the pressure of people watching. So then around 10:30, transition hit. I struggled. I was so mentally tired because I hadn't slept in three nights of no sleep and my mental strength had been what was keeping me going the rest of the time. I was struggling. It lasted 3.5 hours so it was a long transition. Of course, I had the moments of “I can't do this. I'm not strong enough” or whatever and my doula just went, “Okay, if that's how you feel then we need to talk about the alternative.” I was like, “No.” I shut it down. I can do this. We're not going anywhere so that was great. All she needed to say was that one thing. I felt my water break at 12:30 which was amazing because I'd never felt that before and it gave me that push then a couple of contractions later, my body started pushing on its own which again, was amazing. It was very intense and I just couldn't stop it. Every time I got a contraction, I couldn't stop myself from pushing so I just went with it. I could feel her. I reached up inside me and I could feel her head around 1:40ish which was so incredible. How cool is that? So a couple of contractions later, I could feel her crowning, and my husband– I sat up and my husband was like, “Oh my god. I can see the hair.” He was so excited. It was adorable. It took me another 20 minutes to get her head out. I had a lot of pressure in my back and on my right side so I was like, “Maybe she's posterior,” but I didn't know. Once her head came out, she wasn't posterior. Meagan: Was she looking sideways a little?Sabina: I think she was asynclitic because all the pain was on the right and I ended up tearing only on the right side so I'm pretty sure she was crooked. Her head wasn't really coned either so that's what I'm assuming. That's my guess anyway. Meagan: Yep. Coming down a little wonky. Sabina: Her head was out. I got to feel her. We didn't know the gender of this one either which was very exciting. We were 99% sure it was a boy so I kept referring to her as “it”. “Oh, I can feel its ear. It's turning.” I felt her turn too which was cool. My doula took videos. In the video, right before she came out, I said, “She's all gooey,” which is crazy to me because I thought it was a boy but in the moment I said “she”. It was very cool. I'm pretty sure that was all intuition. Meagan: That is crazy. Sabina: I had a 3.5-minute break between when her head came out and the next contraction then on the next contraction, I pushed 3 or 4 times. I felt her come out. I sat back and got to pull her up to my chest. I just looked at my husband and I was like, “We did it. We did it. She's here.” His reaction was everything. I don't think he realized she was out because I had been moving around so when I sat back I think he thought I was just readjusting then all of a sudden, I pull her out. He had a huge smile on his face. He put his hands on his face because he couldn't believe it. He started bawling and it was just, oh my god, incredible. She cried. The second I took her out of the water, she squawked and was moving around and everything. It was the best moment of my life. It was everything and even though it felt like a dream because I was so tired and of course, you're in shock that this actually happened, but it was incredible. She was totally healthy. I got to feel her cord pulsing. I didn't even get to see the placentas with the other two even though I wanted to so then we just stayed in the tub for a bit. I was extremely sore. Once that initial high wore off, I was like, “Holy crap. My crotch.” Meagan: I just had a baby. Sabina: I was like, “My crotch hurts.” My husband ran the other tub for us and we got to see the gender too which was super fun and a big shock to both of us. I got up to switch over to our shower tub and I was like, “Oh, there's a little bit of pressure.” I grunted and the placenta came out which was very cool because I didn't get to experience that the other two times. We went to the other tub and I got to do the placenta tour by myself. I got to let her latch by herself. I love those videos of babies finding the nipple themselves so I let her do that. She was coated thickly in vernix. For a 41-week baby, it was super thick. I think it was intentional for me because I always wanted that gooey baby and she was extremely gooey. I have photos of it all over my face, all over my nose. It was just everywhere. Yeah. Then we transferred to the bed. We got to cut the cord. I made a little cord tie because I hate those plastic chip clip things. I made her a cord tie and I got to put that on. When the kids woke up in the morning, they just got to come in the bedroom and she was there so it was the best. My doula was great. She did counterpressure and she helped my husband any time he was having moments of panic. At one point, I said, “What's taking so long? Is she stuck?” That's his trigger. For some reason, he's terrified of the babies getting stuck. You can see in the video that he looks over to my doula all panicked. I didn't know because she just calmed him down without me knowing which was great. Sabina: I did tear. When I was in the tub, I looked down and I saw something floating. I was like, oh is it gunk? But it was a piece of my inner labia that had ripped off. Meagan: So what did you do about that? Did you let it heal naturally? Did you do the super glue thing?Sabina: I've never heard of the super glue thing but I wouldn't have tried that. Meagan: Yes, super glue. There are some midwives here in Utah, birth center and home birth midwives who when there's a little bit more tear that would maybe make them say, “We need to do some stitches but not too bad,” they would superglue it. It's pretty minor, but they would superglue it. They just say that it causes more trauma to put a needle in, a needle in, a needle in, yeah. Sabina: I originally told myself that if I tore, I would just let it heal, but I couldn't actually figure out where it attached to. We even got a mirror and we were trying to figure out where it had actually ripped off of so I was like, “You know what? We're going to have to go in.” There's a really small hospital about 20 minutes from us. We went to the emergency room and told them, “I just gave birth. I don't have midwives. I need to be stitched up.” They sent us to the OB unit. The doctor really took his time and he stitched up every little tear that he saw which I didn't really want but I didn't know any different. At one point, I asked, “How many stitches are you putting in?” He was like, “You've kind of got a zig-zag tear up.” That was part of it and then beside my urethra. “I'm trying to fix it but I'm also trying to make it look aesthetically pleasing.” I was like, “Okay, I appreciate that. I want it to look decent afterward.” We did have some issues with her. They wouldn't leave her alone even though we didn't want her looked at. There was one doctor in particular who just really caused a lot of problems and threatened to call child services and stupid stuff like that. In hindsight, I would have just let them call child services because she was perfectly healthy and they would have come here. They did end up coming here even after we did what they wanted and she was like, “Why am I here? This is so unnecessary and such a waste of my time.” In hindsight, that's what we would have done. Anyway, the stitching was fine then we came home. I healed. The stitches were the most uncomfortable and sore part. With everything else, I healed relatively quickly. I was back to working out just after two weeks which I know is very quick. Meagan: Whoa, that's really quick. Sabina: That's just me. I did that with my C-sections too. Meagan: You felt really good. Sabina: After the C-sections too, I was back after two weeks with light stuff. I worked my way up. I didn't just go back to the intense stuff. My husband even said that it was the best experience of his life and he would gladly do that again over what we had been through. It was amazing. It was amazing. Meagan: I'm so happy for you. I can see the joy. I can see this cute little one right here. Oh my goodness. I am so happy for you. Sabina: Thank you. Meagan: I'm happy you had that support. You had that team. You even had support for your kids. You had everything planned out and I'm so, so, so happy for you. Sabina: Thank you. I should point out too that she was our biggest baby. Meagan: Was she?Sabina: Our other two were 6 pounds, 14 ounces and she was 8 pounds, 5 ounces. Of course. Meagan: Okay, that's definitely a lot bigger of a baby. I wanted to talk about that too. It's actually going to be in another episode where we are talking about big babies. Did people ever comment on your pregnancy like, “Oh,” and did that ever impact you like, “Oh my gosh, maybe I'd have too big of a baby?” Sabina: I honestly instinctively knew it was going to be our biggest baby because I knew that I was going to deliver vaginally. With the other two, their heads were in the 5th percentile and they would have slipped out. I knew it was going to be challenging and I knew that I was meant to have the biggest challenge that I could basically. She was very fluid-filled so she lost over a pound after birth. She dropped down to the low 7s so I don't know if the vernix had anything to do with that, but I looked the exact same as the other two pregnancies, maybe even smaller. It just looked like I had a soccer ball stuffed up my shirt. I was not big at all. Meagan: Okay, okay. That's good. Sabina: Yeah, we never really got comments about a big baby or anything. 8,5 is big but not crazy big. Meagan: It's not but it's bigger than 6 pounds. So many people are being told, “Oh my gosh. You're so big.” All of these things. Don't let people get to you, Women of Strength. Believe and understand that your body is going to make the right-sized baby.Sabina: Yep, exactly. Just because you're big doesn't mean your baby is big. You could have lots of fluid. It could be how you're carrying. It's all so silly. The ultrasounds are silly. Meagan: Torsos. Sabina: Yeah, exactly. If you have a shorter torso, you're going to stick out further which makes sense. I weighed myself before and after birth just out of curiosity. I had gained 18 pounds during pregnancy and I lost 16 of it with her coming out. So 16 pounds of baby, fluid, and placenta is a lot. Meagan: That is a lot and that's amazing. People have a hard time bouncing back like that. You just bounced back right after the baby was born. I also wanted to talk about HELLP syndrome a little bit because there are people who worry about it happening with future pregnancies. You had mentioned that your provider was like, “Well, you are a low risk because it happened so late in pregnancy.” According to the Preeclampsia Foundation, HELLP syndrome, there are two L's in this and is it hemolysis?Sabina: Hemolysis? Meagan: I'm like, I never know how to say that. Elevated liver enzyme levels so that pain that she was describing in the beginning was her liver. It was her liver. Anyway, we've got symptoms of blurry vision, pain or sharpness in that upper-right middle part of the belly, headache– and she mentioned it was on her right side but these are things that are common with preeclampsia. A headache, blurry vision, overall not feeling well, fatigue, sweats– I only had one client who had HELLP but she had night sweats. She would wake up and was just Iike, “I just was so wet then I would feel yucky.” Sabina: I had a lot of that in the recovery of HELLP syndrome. I was very sweaty at night. Meagan: Very, very sweaty at night, yeah. Super nauseated that continues to get worse. Nose bleeds are kind of a weird thing but that can be a symptom and they can have a hard time stopping. You keep getting nosebleeds. And seizures. They are the last and most serious and weight gain and swelling. Sabina: Yeah, the major one. Meagan: But according to the Preeclampsia Foundation, women who have had HELLP syndrome in previous pregnancies have a 2-19% chance of getting it again. 2-19% is pretty low.Sabina: That's the range. Meagan: Women who experience HELLP before 29 weeks of gestation in their first pregnancy may have an even higher risk though. So where your provider was like, “It was 41 weeks,” you had a lot of a lower risk. Just know if you have had HELLP syndrome, could you get it again? Yes. Will you get it again? Maybe, but your chances are lower than if you got it earlier on. Sabina: Yeah, and there are a lot of precautionary things you can do to prevent it. Meagan: That's what I was just going to say so we can talk about that. If you've had HELLP syndrome, and even just preeclampsia, what are some things? You mentioned aspirin. What are some other things you did to try and avoid it in future pregnancies?Sabina: As I mentioned, I'm a very active person so obviously a healthy lifestyle in general is going to help but then we did a lot of extra urinary tests and blood work. Even if you have no symptoms, it can still show up in those tests so maybe if we had done blood work for me or a urine sample, we would have known ahead of time. Those are really the only ones I did to help prevent it. Then I checked my blood pressure twice a day at home which was excessive but with all of the pressure from my providers, I just felt like I should. Meagan: I think it's warranted for sure. Sabina: Yeah. It was a good way to monitor. Sometimes it would go up slightly so you'd be cautious and then if it went back down, you're like, okay it's fine. It was just a one-off thing. Like I said, with this pregnancy too, I did all of those things other than the tests. I took the aspirin. I stayed healthy. I made sure I was well-hydrated the whole pregnancy. Meagan: Yes. I was going to say hydration. Sabina: Yes, that's a hard one. It's something I struggle with on a daily basis. Meagan: I know. I struggle and I'm not even pregnant. That's why I love our Needed hydration packets from our Needed partner and it helps me because hydration is so hard. Sabina: It is. Meagan: Hydrate. Make sure you are watching out for those symptoms. If you've had it, don't hesitate to call your provider or take charge of your care. Thank you so much again for sharing your beautiful stories. I really appreciate you so much. I'm trying to think if we've had a free birth, an intentional free birth. Sabina: You've had one and I've listened to it. Meagan: Have we had one?Sabina: You've had one and it was Ashley Winning. Meagan: Oh, duh. Of course. Yes. Sabina: She was the first one who I had ever had of a free birth then I found Free Birth Society after that so she started me down this path. Meagan: Yes. Oh, she's so great and she's in Australia. Definitely someone to listen to for sure. Okay. Well thank you so much and congrats and we'll talk to you later. Sabina: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was a dream come true in so many ways. Meagan: Oh, it makes me so happy that you're here. And remember if you're looking for a doula, go find her. Her link will be on today's episode. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In today's episode, Meg from Nebraska shares her Cesarean and VBAC story. Meg's first birth was an unexpected Cesarean after an almost 40-hour induced labor at 41 weeks and 3 days due to failure to descend. Her pain was not managed well during her surgery and her experience was much more difficult than expected. Meg surprisingly found out she was pregnant just 9 months after her Cesarean. Though she was anxious, Meg decided to go for a VBAC. She found The VBAC Link, prepared her body and mind more than before, found a supportive provider, and hired a doula. At 41+3, Meg went in for a gentle induction. She trusted the outcome would be different and it was. With the help of her doula, Meg was able to move much more, and with the encouragement of her midwife, pushing was a much more successful experience this time around. Meg says that bringing her 9-pound, 14-ounce baby up to her chest was the sweetest and best moment. Asynclitic BabiesHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. Today we are going to be sharing our friend, Meg's, story. She is a stay-at-home mom in Omaha, Nebraska and she has a two-year-old daughter who was born after a post-date induction and almost 40-hour labor that ended in a Cesarean. Just 9 months later, she was blindsided by a positive pregnancy test and spent the duration of her pregnancy preparing mentally, spiritually, and physically for the birth of her son. She had a VBAC and she is here today to share her story with you. Some of the things along the way through her story that I thought stood out were one, post-dates. Obviously, this is something that we– if you have been here at The VBAC Link, you'll know that we talk about this. Post-dates– we have seen such a shift over the last few years, well really since the ARRIVE trials in dates and we really see that now the 39-week mark is more true to a 40-week mark. The 40-week mark is more treated like a 41-week mark and it's really starting to become rare to even have people go to that 41-week mark and especially past it. She's going to be sharing her story with you today actually with both births that went past 41 weeks. They were actually both induced so we have an induction that turned Cesarean and an induction that ended in a VBAC. She also has that close duration– that 9 months later, 17 months apart. So if you are listening and you are one of those mamas who may have been pregnant by surprise or chosen to get pregnant sooner than the 24-month mark or even 18-month mark that many providers suggest, definitely listen up for this episode. She also has a larger baby. Her VBAC baby was larger than her Cesarean baby. She also has a failed epidural. There was something that she said in her story that I wanted to point out. That is after many, many, many attempts that were not going well with this epidural, she asked for the highest anesthesiologist there. That is something that you can do right from the get-go. If you are wanting an epidural, you can say, “Hey, I want to make sure I have the top anesthesiologist,” because sometimes it is harder for people to place an epidural or if after one attempt it's not going really, really well, you can just say, “Okay. Stop. I want the head anesthesiologist.” Another thing that we are going to talk about in there is the question. She mentioned The VBAC Link blog that talks about the questions for your provider. If you have not checked this out yet and you are still looking for a provider, I highly suggest checking it out. We will make sure that the link is in the show notes so that you can see more about who you are looking for when it comes to support versus lack of support because if we have not learned anything over all of the years of supporting VBAC clients, our own VBAC journeys, and listening to story after story, that is that support is huge so make sure you find the best supportive provider that you can. Something I wanted to add to this is if you have a female provider, you may want to ask them about their births if they have kids. We have seen here in Utah that there are some providers who will just schedule a C-section. They won't even go into labor and for some reason in my head, that feels like a red flag if a provider doesn't even believe in birth and their own ability to birth. I don't know that they are going to believe in other people's ability to birth so that might be something to consider. Last of all, I want to talk about asynclitic. We have seen many asynclitic births over the year and a lot of the time, once a baby is recognized to be asynclitic, they are pretty low and it can be a little bit harder to get a baby rotated and into a more ideal position for a vaginal birth. I wanted to share some tips that are right here actually on Spinning Babies. Check out spinningbabies.com. You know we love them and we will have a link here in the show notes as well. Do pelvic floor releases and the side-lying releases. Something that is really, really cool about this story is she had her pelvic floor specialist who was also becoming a doula but she had her with her which is so cool. If you are seeing a pelvic floor specialist, I highly suggest asking them if they would be able to visit you during your labor or come and do an exam or treatment during your labor. Just like chiropractic care is a really, really great one to do during labor, so are pelvic floor releases. You want to follow that with the lunge. The lunge will help you work better with the pelvic floor and help that side-lying release become better engage. Doing the dangle should follow the pelvic floor release and the lunge. Again, Spinning Babies is phenomenal and they have all of these like the dangle, what that is, and the lunge and all of these things they have in the link. Make sure you check out this link. Sometimes resting and not pushing is going to really, really help because if we have an asynclitic baby and we are pushing and pushing and pushing, that can get the baby further down and more stuck in the asynclitic position. Something that I have seen work with my own clients is an abdominal lift. We will do an abdominal lift into that side-lying release. You reach your hand underneath your belly and you slowly reach. You pull up and in and it can help pull baby up and in. Vertical positions such as standing, slightly bending your knees during a surge and also that abdominal lift is more ideal during a contraction. Standing with one foot on a stool, we know that asymmetrical movements are really, really great. Even if you can't stand, say you are in a bed or something like that, you can try on your hands and knees or even trying to lay down and try to make your hips asymmetrical that way. Sitting on a toilet with one foot on the stool and the other foot on the floor, pulling on a towel or a rebozo during a pushing contraction, shaking the apples, and keep moving. You're going to notice in this story that is what they did. They just kept on moving. If you have had an asynclitic baby before or you are in labor and you find that your baby is asynclitic, jot these notes down. These are wonderful tips on how to get that baby out of that asynclitic position. All right, right before we jump into this story, I do have a Review of the Week. This one is from srmnewyork and it says, “Thank you, VBAC Link.” It says, “My first birth in 2018 was a traumatic home birth turned emergency C-section. I had done everything I was supposed to to avoid interventions and a C-section but ended up with all of it anyway. The whole experience was crushing and it took years to recover from. Listening to The VBAC Link was a huge part of my emotional processing. Hearing other women's stories helped me feel less alone and gave me the courage to try again. When I became pregnant in 2022, I knew I had to do things differently. I took all of the advice I had gotten from The VBAC Link and put it all into action. I got a doula. I found a VBAC-supportive provider. I took the VBAC online course and was emotionally prepared and surrendered to the birth process. Well, just 12 days ago, I had my VBAC. It was amazing and left me euphoric for days. So much of my success I owe to this podcast. Thank you for helping me experience my dream birth. I am forever grateful.”That was left just about a year about a year ago so srmnewyork, if you are still with us, I just wanted to give you a huge virtual hug and huge congratulations. Thank you so much for sharing that amazing review. As always, if you have a moment, please press pause right now and leave us a review. We love them and love sharing them on the podcast. Meagan: Well, welcome, Meg, to the show. Thank you for being here with us. Meg: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to talk about your story. I feel like two key things about your story are things that we see honestly on a daily basis in our inbox. That is, “I'm 40 weeks and my provider is telling me that I have to have a baby today,” so the post-date thing. Can we go over post-date? And then honestly, the stress surrounding the close duration of babies is insane for moms out there because these providers are just putting so much stress on these moms saying they can't VBAC with a close duration and we know that studies vary, but I am excited to talk about your stories because you have a 17-month gap, right? Meg: Yes. Pretty tight, yep. Meagan: Okay, so we've got the post-date and 17-month gap. All right, let's talk about baby number one. Meg: Absolutely, yeah. So with my daughter, we found out that we were pregnant just a couple of months after I had a miscarriage actually. So going into that pregnancy, I was already feeling just tender and raw and didn't really know what to expect with how well the pregnancy would go. I did as much as I could to prepare. I took a birth class that a friend had recommended with a doula here in town and really just sailed through that pregnancy. Everything was healthy and good. There was never any real concern from my providers but there was always in the back of my mind, What could go wrong here? Yeah, I was just anxious going into that whole labor. Meagan: Do you think it was from your previous loss? I know it's very common after a loss where you do have that feeling of, I just want this baby so badly so I don't want anything to go wrong.Meg: Yes, absolutely. At every appointment, I was holding my breath waiting to hear the heartbeat, and every time it happened, it got me through to the next appointment. I had actually with that previous pregnancy seen a practice of OBs and then shifted my care to the midwife practice at the medical center here in Omaha. For me, that shift helped reset a little bit for these different stories. With the midwives at the med center, you see a rotating group so you never know who is going to end up being at the birth. They want you to see all of the midwives for your prenatal care. There were definitely some who I connected with more than others. I was definitely hoping and praying that I would get the one who I bonded with the most and also was hoping and praying that labor would happen naturally. Unfortunately, I ended up at post-dates with my daughter. I was 41 weeks and 1 day when the midwives wanted to go ahead and induce me. I went in for that induction and it's kind of funny because I think I expected that induction to go a lot more smoothly than it ended up going. I had heard of one of my husband's coworkers who had been induced at the same hospital a few weeks before and her induction went just right as rain. She had her baby within 6 hours. Meagan: Oh wow. Meg: Was she a first-time mom? Meg: Yeah, she was a first-time mom so I was like, I can do a 6-hour induction. That sounds great. It did not go that way. We went in for my induction at 7:00 in the morning. They started me on Pitocin pretty much right away. They basically said that my cervix was ready enough that they didn't need to do any cervical ripening or anything like that. I was like, Okay, here we go. Pitocin– I know you're not really supposed to go on Pitocin, but I'm here for this induction so I have to do what they tell me to do. It was just me and my husband so we just went with the flow and we just hung out. We watched TV while we waited for the Pitocin to kick in and they came and did their checks every once in a while. I felt like I was in a good headspace at the beginning and was ready for whatever to happen. When they came in and did the first cervical check, I think it was maybe 6 or 8 hours in. I had made little to no progress so I was pretty discouraged by that but I was like, Okay. We'll just keep rolling with the Pitocin. They had to amp up the Pitocin almost as high as it would go and things gradually started to pick up but I think at one point, they took me off of the Pitocin and did a little Pit break or reset my body. I think that did help. When I went back on the Pitocin, it definitely ramped up my contractions more. About 15 hours into all of this, they did another cervical check. I was like, Surely I'm going to be 8 centimeters. I'll be into transition soon. I was still 4 centimeters. I was extremely discouraged at that point and I was exhausted. I hadn't had any pain management up until that point. I was like, Okay, I think I'm ready for the epidural. I don't think I can do 15 more hours of this. If I'm only at 4 centimeters, I'm not even halfway there. Who knows how long the rest of this labor is going to go? I ended up getting an epidural. They let me take a bath before my epidural which I was really grateful for because that's what I originally wanted my pain management to be was hydrotherapy and at the time, I couldn't be on Pitocin and be in the tub. That was the last little shred of comfort that I got before being grounded to the hospital bed. I was able to get some rest then with my epidural and just laid there in my bed. One of the nurses came and she tried to do all of these rotating moves to help things along and I was just exhausted. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. They tried the peanut ball. They tried rotating me and all of this. My daughter was handling the labor really well. I was just so burned out after so many hours of everything. At one point though, they decided, “All right. We're going to go ahead and break your water and see if that gets things moving.” They did that and then they placed a fetal monitor in her scalp which just didn't go super well. I think the midwife tried– I don't know. She tried for a while and my husband was really upset with how long it was taking and how much pain that I was in. Meagan: Oh yeah. Meg: The nurse at one point was like, “Should we call OB and see if they can help you out with this?” The midwife was stubborn and she didn't really want any help with that. She did finally get it in and things moved along great but I was definitely put off by that lack of humility for lack of a better word. I just wanted to have the best care that I could. Yeah. Basically from there, my daughter was doing well again, but toward the end of everything, I finally hit 10 centimeters. I was ready to push. I was so excited. They took a picture. They were like, “All right. This is going to be your last picture as a family of two.” I look like a beached whale in the picture. It's the most horrific picture I've ever seen. Meagan: Aww, I bet you don't. Meg: But we were excited. We were like, All right. The time has finally come. At this point, I think I had been laboring for 25 hours so I was ready to push. With the epidural, for some reason, I just didn't have a ton of mobility. Obviously, with some epidurals, you have mobility and some you don't. With this one, my legs were dead weight so pushing was extremely challenging. Yeah. I pushed for a while. I felt like I wasn't getting any feedback from my midwife or the nurse. My sweet husband was just like, “You're doing great. You're pushing so well.” My provider– I felt like I was staring into a blank face. Nobody is making any sort of encouragement and for me, that was just like, I don't know how I'm doing with pushing. They say everything is fine but I'm not getting a lot of encouragement or feedback. At one point, they brought the mirror because I thought, Maybe that will give me some good feedback. I hated the mirror. Meagan: You did? Meg: For some reason, I was thinking, Oh, if they're bringing the mirror out, you must be able to see the head. That's why they would bring the mirror out. No. You could not see the head. You could not see anything so I was just like, What am I just staring at? I don't want to look at this. Meagan: Maybe they did it a little prematurely because a lot of the time they bring it out and it can help you. They say it can lower pushing time because you are seeing it and there's that connection. Meg: Sure. Meagan: I could see how that would just be frustrating. Meg: Oh man. It was terrible. Meagan: You're like, What am I looking at? Why am I just looking at myself but nothing is happening down there? Meg: Yep. Not great. I had them take that away and continued pushing. I think I ended up pushing for almost 3 hours and at that point, my husband and I were like, “What do we do next? This is clearly not working.” My midwife was like, “Well, let's call in OB for a vacuum delivery consult.” We're like, “Oh, great. That's not a C-section. This will be great.” We waited probably for an hour. They told me not to push while we waited for the OB and she was attending to some other matter in the hospital. We just kept asking, “When are they coming? When are they coming?” They sent I think a resident to come and check things out. By this point, I had so many hands up my vagina. I was like, “If she's going to check, if this resident is going to check my cervix and then the doctor has to check the cervix, can we just skip one of them and just have the OB check so I don't have to have that many hands?” Thankfully, they respected that and we were able to wait for the OB. Finally, they came in and we're thinking, Okay, great. She's going to do this consult and we'll get the vacuum going. She came in and was basically like, “It's not possible for us to do a vacuum delivery at this point.” My baby wasn't low enough for that to even be feasible. So then she was like, “Let's check for forceps delivery.” That wasn't going to be feasible either. She basically said they wouldn't be able to fit the forceps around her head the way that it was. Meagan: She was too high. Meg: She was too high and I think she was also asynclitic so she just wasn't going to come down. After hemming and ha-ing, she was like, “You could push for another hour and then we could attempt a vacuum but we might still end up needing to do a C-section.” We were like, “I don't really want to keep pushing for an hour if a vacuum is a maybe and probably not.” At that point, we basically decided, “Okay, we've been laboring for so long. It doesn't seem like these are going to be feasible solutions,” so we just decided to go back in and have the C-section. I just remember that being a whirlwind process of them getting me ready and I was in so much pain from having pushed for so long that I was just shaking. My shoulder blade just had raging pain while we headed back to the operating room. I just remember feeling everything. I know they had me on an epidural. They had me on pain meds but I felt like I could feel the tugging and the pulling. I was apparently very verbal during the process asking for more pain meds. My husband actually works at the hospital so he knew the anesthesiologist. He is a critical care pharmacist so he is very familiar with medications. He was advocating for my pain meds at that point. Things just didn't go well during that whole process. They did finally pull my daughter out and they held her up to the clear plastic. I just remember she grabbed my little finger through the plastic. Meagan: She did?Meg: Yeah, it was so sweet. They pressed her up and I just stuck my hand up. She grabbed my little finger and after all the trauma from the whole day, that was definitely the bright spot in getting to meet her. Yeah. It was kind of crazy. Then afterward, they rolled us into recovery and I ended up being in the hospital for 3 or 4 more days just from recovering. We had nurses and doctors all say, “You can attempt a VBAC. You should try a VBAC with your next baby.” I was like, “Hold on. What's a VBAC? I just had a C-section. Why are we talking about my next baby?” Yeah. I didn't really know what I wanted at that point. Meagan: Yeah. Meg: Yeah. I was just trying to wrap my head around the disappointment of everything going wrong and just feeling overwhelmed with feeling like all of the things that I had hoped and planned for the birth didn't go as I had hoped. Yeah. So yeah. Meagan: So eventually you did decide, Okay, baby number two. Did you decide? Meg: We didn't. Meagan: That's a legit question actually, right? Meg: My next pregnancy was definitely a surprise. I had spent a lot of time trying to actively work through my recovery with my C-section. I had seen a core and pelvic floor therapist. She and I actually became really close. She worked with me for months. I mean, probably really from my birth until my next birth she worked with me. I felt like I was just starting to recover and I remember the day that I found out I was pregnant. My friend and I had gone shopping all day. I was just exhausted coming home from this shopping trip. I was like, I feel like I'm next level exhausted. Maybe I'm pregnant. I took a pregnancy test just on a whim. My daughter was napping. My husband was on the couch. I was like, This is probably going to be negative. I'm just tired from walking around all day. It was positive and I was shocked. I called my husband into the bathroom and I was like, “I'm pregnant.” He was definitely shocked too. I think I was more devastated because I was like, I'm just recovering from this C-section. Meagan: 9 months out, yeah. Meg: Yeah. My immediate response was just fear and anxiety about giving birth again. I wasn't sure if I wanted to attempt a VBAC because I wasn't sure if I wanted to go through another 36-hour labor to just end up in a C-section again. For me, preparing throughout that pregnancy was critical just preparing emotionally, physically, and mentally. The doula who had taught the birth class for my daughter, I ended up hiring her right away. I was like, “Are you available? I know I need a doula.” I started listening to The VBAC Link. She recommended your podcast and your website so I knew that I wanted to have a doula in the picture. I had pastors and family and friends praying for us for this decision about whether or not I should attempt a VBAC and I also just spent a lot of time. I felt like for me, I really needed to wrestle through some of the spiritual aspects of what I had gone through during my daughter's birth. I found a couple of books that were a really huge encouragement to me as a person of faith just thinking about the concept of birth through scripture. One of the books was called Holy Labor by Aubrey G. Smith. She walks through doing some spiritual exercises to prepare your heart and mind for the process of birth. I think that was just something that I hadn't really done with my daughter so I wanted to spend some time really preparing for this birth and making sure that I was seeking the Lord's guidance and submitting to what I felt like He was asking me to walk through with this birth as it wasn't something that was in my plan to have this birth so close together. For me, that definitely helped prepare my heart and my mind. I also spent some time with guidance from The VBAC Link. I looked through the questions that you guys have for asking a provider about if they are truly a VBAC supporter or not and with it being a team of midwives, with it being a research hospital and a teaching hospital, they are definitely very pro-VBAC. Several of them had VBACs themselves so I definitely felt like I had a great team of midwives who were going to be advocating for me through my labor and delivery. I found out partway through my labor that my pelvic floor therapist was also training to be a doula so I invited her to the birth as well. We had quite the posse with my doula, my pelvic floor therapist, and then this team of midwives. I think in the process too, I'm not sure who recommends it. I'm sure I heard this on your podcast as well. I started doing all of the Spinning Babies exercises pretty early on. I was trying to eat better and walk more and just be healthier in every aspect of that pregnancy. Something that happened during my labor at the med center was that they approved water birth at the hospital and then also included VBAC moms in that so I was super excited to try a water birth. I had wanted to use hydrotherapy with my daughter so getting the opportunity to do that for my next birth, I was really excited about. Throughout the process too, my midwives were very supportive about waiting as long as I could to start labor. I really wanted to labor naturally. I did not want to go through another induction but as we were getting past 40 weeks, I think I went in for at least two membrane strippings before 41 weeks. I think at basically 40 weeks and then midway through the week, I went through and did another one of those. I definitely started to have more contractions after those, but nothing that was picking up and getting ready for actual labor. They basically started encouraging me, “Let's go ahead and schedule your induction.” I remember just being so upset about that and also really not wanting to have the midwife who I had previously. For me, I felt like I needed to have a clean slate going into this to try and attempt a VBAC. Two of the more senior midwives, I ended up meeting with them. I had my regular prenatal appointment and then the one came in and joined us. They basically helped me talk through my fears around induction and my previous experience. They really listened to what had happened and they really wanted to make sure that I had the support I needed going in to attempting this VBAC.Basically, we plotted out, “Okay. We are going to do the induction on this day.” It ended up being 41 weeks and 3 days. The midwife who was going to be on duty throughout that weekend, it was a Saturday. She was going to be there Saturday and Sunday. I would have her basically regardless of how long my labor took. She was going to be there. To me, that was a huge encouragement. She was actually the midwife who I hoped to get with my daughter. I felt really good about scheduling that induction even though I really didn't want to. Yeah. I basically just tried to do everything I could before that. In that week, I was walking curbs. I was doing my Spinning Babies. I went and I talked to my doula. I was like, “Is there anything else you recommend to try to get this labor going?” I had been drinking my raspberry leaf tea. I had been eating my dates. I had been doing all of the things and she recommended acupuncture. Meagan: I was going to say acupuncture maybe? Meg: I went and I tried it, yes. I saw the chiropractor throughout. I had basically been doing all of the things you guys recommend and my doula had recommended throughout my whole pregnancy. The acupuncture was not helpful. It felt like torture for me. I was just sitting there. I think it did start some contractions because that night I felt a lot more contractions but then they waned off, unfortunately. Yeah, so then Saturday morning, the day of my induction, I was finally mentally prepared for, Okay. I'm going to go in and do this induction. I have my doula. I have my pelvic floor therapist. My husband is going to be there. I know the midwife. I like her. I knew that I was going to have this great team there for me. I'm in the tub just getting ready psyching myself up and I get a call from the hospital. They basically were like, “We're going to need to push your induction.” I was so mad. I'm finally ready for this induction. Please don't push this induction. We waited. They were like, “You're on the top of our list to call in. You're 41 weeks plus 3 days. We definitely want to make sure that you get induced today. Call back if you don't hear from us.” I think we did. I think we called back two or three times like, “Hey, are you ready for us yet?” They were like, “We'll call you. Please just wait.” We finally did. I think we went for a walk that morning. We spent some time with my daughter and my mom who was there to stay with my daughter. We enjoyed the morning and we finally sat down to lunch I think and we got the call that they were ready for us and they asked, “How soon can you get here?” We made our way. We put my daughter down for a nap. For me, that was a really sweet moment. I didn't know if I would be coming home from a vaginal birth or a C-section so I wanted to pick her up and put her in her crib one last time, then leaving her knowing that she was asleep and going to be fine during my labor. Yeah. We went for the induction. I think when we got there, they did their initial checks and all of that and started with a membrane sweep. At that point, I was 4 centimeters, 50% effaced. Meagan: Oh, that's good. Meg: Yeah, I was pumped that I was starting from 4 centimeters. I was like, Okay. I'm not going to labor for 15 hours and still be at 4 centimeters probably. Yeah. We all started in really high spirits. They started Pitocin. This time, they had it where I could walk around with it which was really nice. My doula had me walking the halls. We were squatting. We were leaning over the bed. We were sitting on the ball. We were doing everything. She was like, “I'm going to work you to get this baby going.” We did that for a couple of hours. I basically didn't want to get checked for as long as possible. We labored as much as we could. I think we started that at 2:30 in the afternoon. At about 6:30, I started needing a little bit more help from everybody with counterpressure and all of that, then I was requesting a cervical check. I started to feel like something was going on. My midwife came in and did the cervical check. She told my doula because I was like, “I don't want to know if it's bad news.” My doula was like, “Do you want me to tell you?” I was like, “I suppose.” I was still at 4 centimeters but I was 90% effaced. Meagan: Huge progress. Meg: Yeah. For some reason though, I was so stuck on the fact that I was only at 4 centimeters that I was like, “90% is nothing.” Meagan: Oh my goodness. From 50 to 90, that is huge progress. Meg: Yes, so I was like, “Okay. We'll just keep going how we're going.” She was like, “Do you want to try the tub?” I was like, “Oh yeah.” For some reason, I was thinking I was going to love the tub because I was thinking I could just lay in the tub and relax. My doula was like, “No. You need to be squatting in this tub.” I just could not get into a position in the tub that I was enjoying. We got out of the tub and just labored on the toilet. That, I think, is where I spent most of the time actually. Meagan: Dilation station. Meg: Yeah, there you go. My husband and I would just sit in there in the bathroom and just talk and giggle. He really kept me in high spirits throughout the whole labor. I was definitely getting to a point though. I think it was a couple of hours after that first check and I started asking for the epidural. My doula was like, “I think we should wait. You're doing really well.” I'm like, “I'm not doing well.” My husband, the pharmacists that he is, was like, “What else can we try? Can we try some nitrous?” I was like, “I don't think I'm going to like nitrous. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that.” We were mulling over that. They did a second check at 10:00 PM and I was finally 5 centimeters. I was like, “Okay. We've bumped up the centimeters.” I was 100% effaced so I was like, “Okay, things are moving. I don't want to do an epidural yet.” So we started on nitrous. I labored on nitrous for a couple of hours. That was going well at first. I was in bed because I was just so exhausted at this point. I remember on the nitrous, I could definitely feel pain but I did not care. Meagan: Yeah, it takes the edge off. Meg: Yes, yeah. It was kind of wild. I would have these thoughts while I was on the nitrous like, Oh, this is horrible and everything is going to be terrible, but then the contraction would pass and I would be like, Oh, everything is fine. It was such a wild experience. At that point, they were setting up the table for baby so I was thinking, Okay, they're setting up the table. I must be really close if they are setting up the table for this baby. I was in so much pain and I was like, Surely I am 9 centimeters and we are getting this room ready for this baby. I think toward the end of that couple hours, it was almost 1:00 AM, I was definitely starting to not cope as well. Even with the nitrous, I was screaming and rigid and couldn't handle it. My midwife mentioned pain management. She was like, “I think we should do a cervical check and maybe it's time to think about an epidural.” I was like, “Finally. I've been asking for this for hours,” even though I didn't want to do it in the first place. Oh, I forgot to mention in all of this, my birth plan was to have this water birth. While I was on nitrous, they roll in this birth tub which is one of those soft-sided which I think was a home birth tub. They started filling it with this tiny hose. It was going to take hours for this thing to fill to the point in which it was going to be therapeutic. So I basically took one look at that tub and was like, “Yeah, that's not going to happen.” It was kind of disappointing. I had really wanted to try a water birth. I thought that was going to be so sweet. This is going to be my story. VBAC, first water birth VBAC at the med center since water births were approved. I just let that dream die a little bit. I'm like, If we just have a VBAC, I'll be fine. Yeah. They placed the epidural. They checked me. I was 8 centimeters finally. I was like, Okay. This is moving more quickly. They placed the epidural so I could get some rest and it worked for a little while then it did not work. So they came. Anesthesiology came and tried to problem solve. They were moving me all around trying to get me in a good position to see if that was the problem. My doula was just horrified during this whole situation. She was like, “This should not be happening.” I think they ended up calling in basically the head anesthesiologist finally who was like, “Do you want me to place it again?” I was like, “Yeah, why haven't we done that yet?” So then they placed it again and then it was the perfect epidural. It made the pain manageable but then I could still move around. I got a nap at that point and then we did another check after I took a nap so this was at 4:30 in the morning. They came in and did the check. I was at 9 centimeters so I felt really good about that. I think they put me on Benadryl at that point because there was some swelling from when I was on nitrous. I think I was subconsciously pushing while I was on the nitrous so they were like, “I think we're just going to try to calm this down a little bit.” At that point, my midwife mentioned that if I didn't make progress in 6 hours, we might need to discuss a C-section. I was just devastated. I'm like, “No.” As soon as my midwife left the room, I talked to my doula and I was like, “Okay, what do we need to do to prevent the C-section because I absolutely don't want to do that again?” For the next 2 hours, my doula, our nurse, my pelvic floor therapist, and my husband every 30 minutes were rotating me into a different position. I was on the squat bar. I was over the top of the bed. I was side to side with the peanut ball. I mean, seriously, we did not stop moving basically that entire time. We set the goal of 2 hours to have another check. I think during that time, I had my arms over the back of the bed. I looked down at my belly and was like, “All right little boy, let's do this. I want to meet you today and I don't want to have a C-section.” I was kind of whispering to him. My doula was like, “You're going to meet him today. It's going to be okay.” Yeah. Finally, it hit 6:30. The midwife came back in and I was basically there. I was a 9 or a 10 with an anterior lip. It went away with contractions so she was like, “I think let's wait to push and let your uterus do a little bit more work.” We set the goal to start pushing at 7:30. In that hour, I was psyching myself up to push because, with my daughter, I had obviously pushed for 3 hours and still ended up in a C-section. I was excited to push with him but I was also like, This isn't over yet. We might still have a C-section here.” It hit 7:30 and I think I started crying. My doula was like, “This is a different birth. This is going to go differently than it did with your daughter.” I think I had my husband come over and pray with me. We started pushing. My midwife did not leave my side from that moment on. My team during that whole time was my husband on one side and then my doula and pelvic floor therapist trading off on the other side. My midwife was doing some internal counterpressure to help me feel where I needed to push which after my last pushing experience where I had zero feedback, her telling me exactly where to push every time was such a huge encouragement to know, Okay, I have this purpose and this goal. Meagan: Direction. Meg: Direction, yeah. I know exactly what I should be doing. She gave me encouragement after every time like, “Oh, that's the push.” My doula and everybody was cheering me on. I think I was in such a better headspace during that whole pushing experience. We tried a bunch of different positions but I think I ended up mostly pushing from my back. About an hour in, they started to see his head during the contractions. I think I started crying again. I was like, “I'm going to have this baby from my vagina.” I think that's when it finally hit me, “This is the VBAC. I'm going to have this VBAC.” I think they did bring in the mirror one more time and again, for me, it was nice to see his head this time because I could see his head but it was just too distracting. I couldn't push effectively and look at myself in the mirror. I had them take that away again but they had me feel his head and that to me was really sweet being able to feel his hairy little head. That was the first thing my midwife said was, “Man, this kid's got a head of hair.”Yeah. I just kept pushing. It was kind of funny because again, they were getting the room ready and I'm thinking, All right, this baby is going to come out at any minute. We've been pushing for a while now. He was really stubborn and he would crown a little bit then he would get sucked back in. I think my midwife was getting frustrated at one point looking at some of the video. She basically stuck her hand in there on his head like, “You're going to come out.” Yeah. Finally again, 3 hours later– I started pushing at 7:30 and at 10:21, he was finally born. He came out and everyone in the room, everyone– nurses, doula, everyone– “Whoa.” There was this audible, “Whoa.” We had done a prediction of his weight earlier in the day. My daughter was 7 pounds, 14 ounces and I didn't gain as much weight with this pregnancy so I was like, “I think he's probably smaller. I bet he's only maybe 7 pounds, 7 ounces.” Everybody had their predictions. I pull him out to my chest. I don't care how big he is at this point. I'm just like, “He came out. He's so sweet.” I'm crying. My husband is crying. We did it. We're having our moment. Well then, they get him all cleaned off. They get him weighed and the nurse who weighs him gets the attention of everybody in the room like, “All right, any last guess of how much he weighs?” 9 pounds, 14 ounces so a full 2 pounds heavier than my daughter and I was shocked. I'm sure that's why it took him so long to come out. I'm like, This boy was a big boy in there. Yeah. It was just wild getting to meet him. Yeah. It was really sweet because once they got him back on my chest, I looked up at my husband and I said, “You have a son.” It was such a different experience than my C-section baby. Being able to have this baby and bring him right to my chest was just so sweet. Meagan: Absolutely. There is something about that. It sounds like your husband and everybody was so invested in this birth. Meg: Yes, yep. Definitely. Meagan: I'm sure the room, the positivity in the room and the emotions were high. Meg: Yep. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: I'm curious. Did you ever get your op reports with your first baby? Meg: Yes, I did. Meagan: Did they give any reasons why you had it? Obviously, you said asynclitic so positioning, but I'm wondering if they ever said anything else in your op reports. Meg: From what I could tell, and the OB who I had at the time said, “This is not because of your lack of ability to push. You have very effective pushes.” I think in the op report, they said it was that her head was tilted and asynclitic and that she was failure to descend basically. I think she was only ever at– I never remember– at one above zero. She wasn't going to come out that way. Meagan: -1 station. We know with asynclitic it can be harder. There are positions and things like that which could help but often are not offered or even known about. Meg: Yeah. Yep. I did look at my chart after listening to your podcast because I was like, I want to know what they said about me in these notes. I definitely scoured those notes and after hearing some horror stories on the podcast, I felt like the care that I had was very respectful and I had a lot of support from everyone at the hospital. Meagan: Yeah. Support is so important. Meg: Yeah. Meagan: So important. Meg: Yeah. Meagan: I'm so glad that you got your powerhouse team and you had this induction that you weren't really wanting but it ended up really great. Meg: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Meagan: Well are there any tips you would give to moms who are listening and going in for an elective induction or medically necessary induction? Any tips for them? Meg: Mhmm, yeah. I definitely think a doula is key, especially after that 2 hours where it was like, “Hey, you might need to have a C-section,” then my doula and my team worked me like a rotisserie chicken to get that baby in a good position. I do think that part of– who knows with my C-section what could have gone differently but I think if I had a doula there to support me, things would have gone so much differently. I think for inductions in particular, you're going to be there for a while probably so having somebody there who can make that time productive is definitely a game changer. Meagan: Absolutely because if you didn't have someone there, you might have just been hanging out, chilling, and not doing too much. In that 6 hours, maybe something would have happened and maybe not. Meg: Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Meagan: Well congrats again and thank you so much for sharing your story. Meg: Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“My birth stories are my testimony…I have never trusted God more with any situation in my entire life other than with the lives of my children and bringing them into this world.”Shelby's story is one of faith, trust, and surrendering. Shelby joins us today from Indiana sharing her wildly traumatic Cesarean story due to a placental abruption and her peaceful, healing home birth. Shelby was on vacation at a cabin in New York at 34 weeks when she woke up to regular contractions and heavy bleeding. She rushed to the nearest hospital, was put under general anesthesia for her Cesarean, was transferred via a separate ambulance from her baby to a hospital 3 hours away, and had a 23-day NICU stay in the height of COVID 800 miles away from her family and community.She and her husband were certain they would not have any more children. But as they fought for healing through faith-based counseling, their hearts yearned for another baby and a chance at a healing birth experience. She completely surrendered, found holistic prenatal care, and created a birth space for herself where she knew she felt safe. She was brave and vulnerable, and her second birth was everything she hoped it would be. As Meagan says at the end of this episode, “Get educated. Love yourself. Have faith in you and your body and your baby. You are amazing. You are a true Woman of Strength.”How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength, we have our friend, Shelby, here with us today sharing her HBAC story. In addition to her HBAC story, she's got some other unique things that I think are going to be important for us to talk about today. One is placental abruption. That is something that is definitely a reason for a Cesarean and one of those absolute needed reasons for a Cesarean. We are going to talk a little bit more about that and then we are going to talk about faith and how faith in whatever faith looks like to you, it's so important to cling onto that. Shelby has some messages about that. Then we really want to talk about physiological birth. We hear it. We see it online. I mean, if you go on Instagram and you go into the birth world, you're going to see it almost 100% guaranteed but what does that really mean? We're going to be diving in with that today. Shelby, you are in– where did it say, Indiana? Shelby: Indiana, yeah. Meagan: I have to look at my notes. Indianapolis, Indiana. She's in Indiana so Women of Strength, if you are coming from her area, definitely listen up as well. Okay, so we have a Review of the week and this is by birthing confident. It says, “Invaluable information. I love this podcast. As a mom planning a VBAC and a VBAC-trained birth doula, the information shared on this podcast is invaluable. I have become so passionate about helping all women know their birth options and avoid unnecessary C-sections. I think this podcast is great for all expectant mothers” and I 100% agree with that. This podcast is for anyone and everyone because like she said we are wanting to help people avoid unnecessary and/or undesired Cesareans. We have a ridiculous Cesarean rate. It is through the roof. I would love to see it start dropping and I don't know if this podcast truly is going to impact the Cesarean rate the way I would love it to, but I do believe that it's a starting point. It's a starting place for you guys to learn your options for birth after Cesarean and to learn how to have a better Cesarean experience if you have one because that's also a really important factor that I think a lot of people forget about. Not only do we share just VBAC stories, but we do share healing, beautiful CBAC stories and repeat Cesareans. Thank you so much, birthingconfident, for your review. As always, please if you haven't yet, leave us a review. You can do so on Apple Podcasts. You can message us. You can rate us on Spotify and all of the places that you listen to your podcast. Meagan: Okay, cute Shelby. Welcome to the show. Shelby: Thank you. I'm so excited. Meagan: I am so excited. So let's dive in. I am actually really excited to talk a little bit more about placental abruption as well and hear about your experience. Shelby: Yeah. I don't think I even knew it was a thing honestly before it happened to me. I think it's something that people don't really talk about and it's probably a good thing because it's really scary but also, it would have been good to maybe know what was going on. I know it wouldn't have changed the outcome, but yeah. I just had no idea that was even something that could happen. With my first pregnancy, it was very run-of-the-mill. Everything was good and I was planning on birthing at a birthing center in Indianapolis so I was still going for that natural, unmedicated birth. I didn't really know anything that went into that as you do with your first and I feel like you do the typical making the baby registry and doing all of these things that don't really actually help you with your birth. Not that I would have gotten the chance to even try anyway. I feel like I just definitely didn't really have much knowledge and I think the problem is that you don't know what you don't know which is why I literally recommend this podcast to all of my friends who are even pregnant with their first baby because I'm like, “Just learn the things. Learn all of the things.” We took a very basic birthing course through the birthing center and it was just virtual, like four sessions and it was not super helpful honestly but we also didn't get to implement it. The pregnancy itself was just very normal. I mean, I have pretty much all of the symptoms which is the worst like really horrible rib pain and nausea and heartburn and all of the things. What was crazy though, this was in 2021 and I actually got COVID while I was pregnant also. Everyone I've talked to thinks that's probably why I had a placental abruption.Meagan: That's interesting to know. Shelby: Yeah. I had it in about my 5th month of pregnancy in September and I was due in January. It was horrible for a week but then I recovered and I was back to working out. I was totally fine. I didn't have any blood pressure issues after that. Everything reallly seemed okay. We decided at 33 weeks that we were going to go to New York which is really far away from Indiana on vacation for Thanksgiving to gather with all of my husband's family. My midwives cleared it. Like I said, I was working out. I was healthy. I was fine. The trip was going super well. I was working out while we were there. I was doing barre obviously so I was doing safe things. Fitness is a really big part of my life but also, it's not something I added in during pregnancy. It was just normal for me. Meagan: I used to take barre too. I took barre and was teaching barre with my second TOLAC. It's a very low impact but very, very good for strength and cardio. Shelby: Yeah, and my husband and my father-in-law were doing them with me so we have some really awesome videos of me at 34 weeks pregnant working out with my husband and my father-in-law doing barre. But yeah. Everything was going well and anything that was slightly risky which really even wasn't, I wasn't doing. They did this office chair floor hockey where they were pushing each other around in office chairs and playing hockey in a building and I didn't do it. I sat on the sidelines and observed. I was being really what I feel like was cautious. Meagan: Responsible. Shelby: Right, yeah. We even took family pictures on Saturday and everything, I have pictures of us smiling and laughing and then literally the next day we had a baby which was crazy. I start having Braxton Hicks contractions at 20 weeks. For both of my pregnancies, I just feel like I start having them really early so they are not shocking for me. But that Saturday, I remember several times looking at my husband and being like, “These feel a little stronger than I remember them being,” but with your first, you don't know anything. I kept mentioning that to him but they weren't super regular and there were no other signs of anything, just Braxton Hicks contractions. Then that night when we went to bed, I couldn't really sleep. I was laying there by myself the only one awake. We were all staying in this big cabin together which was great. My husband and I were in our room. At 4:00 AM– this is so funny to me now that I know what labor is actually like. At 4:00 AM, I started timing contractions and they were less than 5 minutes apart when I started timing them. I'm like, What was wrong with me?So after an hour of them being like that, I woke my husband up and I was like, “I think you should go get your mom,” because she is actually a midwife which was good. Meagan: Oh, convenient. Shelby: She was in the room next to us. Yeah. I was like, “I think you should go get your mom because this is not right.” They were not just less than 5 minutes apart. They were pretty uncomfortable. She came over and checked things out. I know now that she definitely knew that something was going on but she was really good at keeping her cool. She was like, “Why don't you go shower and try to relax?” When I went to go to the bathroom and shower, I started bleeding. Like I said, I knew nothing about labor, so I was like, “Oh, well maybe I am in labor” which was really scary because I was only 34 weeks but it was a lot of bleeding. I was like, “Well, I don't know what's normal,” but I know that obviously, my mother-in-law knew what was going on. She was like, “It's okay. We'll have Chad (my father-in-law) just go start the car and we'll go in and get everything checked out.” So we were in the middle of the Adirondacks which is literally nowhere. We had a 25-minute drive to the nearest hospital and this hospital, I mean we were probably the only people there. It was 5:30 in the morning maybe. They didn't have an OB there. They didn't have a surgical team there. They were all at home so we come in and the front desk lady is like, “What's your occupation?” She's typing like a sloth. I was like, “Girlfriend, I am bleeding and I am in full-on labor. Can we just go inside?” So that was crazy. She's asking me to sign stuff and I'm telling my husband, “You have to sign.” At this point, contractions were pretty back-to-back and they were super strong. I could tell I was bleeding with every one. I could feel it. They got me back into the ER and the poor nurse. I know that this was probably so scary for her, especially with an OB not even there but she was asking me, “Have you felt her move recently? I can't find a heartbeat.” I was like, “I don't know. I'm in labor. I don't know if she's moving or not.” Every time I'd have a contraction, she'd just be like, “Oh wow, that's a lot of blood.” I'm like, “Thank you. I know.” Meagan: You're like, “I can feel it.” Shelby: Yeah, it was wild. By the time the OB got there, she checked. She said I was fully dilated and effaced. Meagan: Holy cow. Shelby: This was maybe 2 hours. It was not long. Now that I've been through a full labor, I'm like, that is crazy. My body had to have just been in panic mode like, We have to get this baby out right now.She checked and something that was kind of cool was I knew that my baby was head down. She had been from 20 weeks. She was perfectly always in the same spot because I could always feel her kicks really high and one of the times the OB checked, she goes, “Oh, and she's breech so we're just going to have to go.” I was like, “She's not breech. Check again. She's not breech.” She checked again and she was like, “Oh, you're right.” I was like, “Yeah.” So the nurse brings in all of the scrubs and stuff for my husband to put on and as he's getting dressed and everything, he's fully ready to go. He's all excited because he wasn't really super scared. Meagan: He didn't understand what was going on. Shelby: Yeah, but also, he's like, “I'm going to meet my baby today. This is so cool.” And the literal most gut-wrenching thing of my life was when the OB was like, “No, we don't have time. It's going to be under general. You can't come.” She wheeled me out of the room and I looked back and saw him standing there fully dressed just like yeah. It was awful. In that moment, I wasn't even worried about myself and I wasn't worried about the baby. I was just like, He's going to be traumatized from this. This is horrible. They took me back there and I'm in labor holding onto the top of the bed. I was only in there probably for a minute, but it is scary. The whole room is white and there is somebody over here counting instruments. They stick a mask on your face and you can barely breathe and then the next thing you know you wake up in recovery. I woke up as the only person in this room. There were maybe two guys sitting at the desk but that was it. Nobody else was there. They didn't say anything to me. Nobody told me if she was okay. I knew nothing. Yeah. I was just laying here. Eventually, my husband came in and he showed me pictures of her. He was like, “She's okay. She's on oxygen but she's doing all right.” But yeah. It was totally crazy. Then they moved me to– I don't even know. It probably wasn't actually a postpartum room. I don't even know if they have those at this hospital. I feel like they probably try to send everybody everywhere else. Then basically, they told me, “Hey, you have 10 minutes if you want to go see her and try to hold her before the ambulances get here to transfer you guys,” because there wasn't a NICU there and they probably weren't even– they couldn't have cared for her. I think as soon as we got there, they must have called Albany Medical Center because it's 3 hours away. She was born at 7:30 in the morning. I started timing contractions at 4:00 AM. We didn't leave until after 5:00. The whole thing was so fast. I'm getting ready to get out of bed and get in a wheelchair to go see her and they didn't warn me how much pain I would be in and they didn't really help me get out of bed either. As I went to stand up, I leaned back a little and after you've had a C-section, I almost passed out. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Shelby: Yeah, so I get in this wheelchair and I get in the room where she is. She's got the oxygen mask on and she's got all of these tubes and all of the things and you could tell in the pictures I was barely with it. What I remember bothering me the most is I had obviously been intubated so I felt like there was stuff in my throat because it was so swollen. My mouth was all dry and I got to hold her for a couple of minutes but it didn't even feel real. Then the NICU team got there. She was on one ambulance and I was on a different one and my husband was in a car so we were all separated for 3 hours to Albany. Halfway there, my ambulance– so hers left first, and halfway there, we passed hers pulled over on the side of the road. I started panicking. There was no communication between the two ambulances. Meagan: Oh my heavens. I'm dying right now. Shelby: Yeah. The EMT, bless her heart, was amazing. She was like, “It could be anything. It could be one of the monitors isn't hooked up right and they're just stopping to do that or they need to change out an oxygen tank and they can't do that while driving.” She helped me calm down a little bit. She probably shouldn't have said this, but we got closer to Albany and she said, “We don't need to panic.” I don't remember if she actually said this but she said, “Unless they pass us again going fast.” I kid you not but we were 5 minutes out from the hospital and her ambulance went by us with lights and sirens on. I had maybe seen her for 10 minutes before this and she couldn't contact the other ambulance. So just traumatizing, all of it. Thankfully, when we pulled into the hospital, the first thing that the guy on the baby's ambulance did was come over and say, “Everything is okay.” It was just something. They had a lead or something come off so they needed to stop and take care of it so it wasn't a big deal but it made it feel like a big deal. We are in New York still for all of this. We get in there and I have to get settled in the postpartum section and she has to get settled in the NICU and then finally, hours later, I was still bleeding a lot so they were trying to take care of that. They were doing the fundal rubs and I remember texting my mom and I was like, “If they do it again, I'm going to punch someone in the face,” because it was so awful. They were saying, “It's because the EMT didn't do them on the ride over that you are bleeding so much,” so they kept coming over and doing them. It was so awful. So then we had a 23-day NICU stay in New York, just my husband and I because no one else could even visit us because it was 2021 in New York which was pretty bad for COVID. Once I was discharged after 4 days, technically, the only visitors allowed were my husband and I with our NICU bracelets to see her. Even if they had someone come, they couldn't even come into the hospital. We didn't really want to leave the hospital because we wanted to be there with her. We were Ubering to Target. We didn't have a car because we flew there. We are Ubering to Target and thank goodness they had a Ronald McDonald house there so we were staying there and they supplied a lot of dinners and housing which was the biggest blessing in the world. I literally don't know what we would have done otherwise. Getting discharged without your baby is super horrible and she was only 4 pounds, 10 ounces so she was really little and nursing just never took off for us. I didn't get to try for a while even because she was being tube-fed and she could barely stay awake because she was so tiny. Every nurse that you'd have would tell you their tips and tricks which is great but not helpful when every 3 hours you are being told something different. We tried so hard and eventually got to the point where it was like, “Let's just get home. We are 800 miles from home and if it takes a bottle, that's fine. We just need to get home.” Yeah. After 23 days, my amazing mom drove to New York because we didn't even have a car seat. It was all at home. She picked us up and drove us back home. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Shelby: Yeah, so then you are coming home with this little 5-pound baby and you are like, “How are we even allowed to do this? She doesn't even barely fit in the car seat.” It was so crazy. After that, we were really unsure if we'd have more kids. Especially right after, we were like, “I don't know if we can do that again.” My husband and I always wanted lots of kids and a big family. That has always been something that we wanted so after that first experience– and you do a quick Google search of placental abruption and they say, “Once you've had one, it's 15% more likely that you'll have another one.”You're like, I can't go through that again. That was horrible. I knew that if we got pregnant again, I was like, I'm going to feel like a ticking time bomb. All of these also quick Google searches tell you that it can happen as early as 20 weeks. Thank goodness we made it to 34 but I'm like, If that happens at 20, baby is probably not going to make it. Meagan: That's a scary thought. That's a really scary thought. They really have advanced the medical world so much to a point where even when babies are born really, really preemie, there are higher chances than there used to be, but the thought of that in general is just too much to think about. Shelby: Oh yeah, and my mom who drove to New York to get us– which is probably part of the reason they discharged us. She's a NICU nurse so she actually knew how to feed this litle 5-pound baby who was still causing us feeding issues and all of the things, but I've obviously heard from her too the stories of the really early babies. I mean, even 29 weeks and I was like, It's just too much. But we also knew that we couldn't stay in that place because we both were not in a good place with it. My husband was obviously so traumatized for different reasons and I was too. It was just a lot. We started seeking out some faith-based counseling basically like spiritual reconciliationing kind of to work through it all because I knew even if we weren't going to have more kids, I could not just live with that raw the way it was. Meagan: Both of you needed to process that. Shelby: Yeah. We were just praying for the release of that and we even prayed over our poor baby because I was like, She's probably holding trauma from that too. The losses that I was experiencing were also losses for her. She missed out on the golden hour and a peaceful entry into this world. It would drive me crazy thinking that her first moments in this world were with people she didn't know and it was bright in the room and being hooked up to machines. I was like, That was probably so scary for her too. We could tell for a long time, probably her first 7 months that she was so sensory. I mean, just screamed and hated the car seat, hated transitions, hated bedtime. I mean, it was basically non-stop screaming for 7 months. I was like, You were supposed to be in the womb for 6 more weeks and instead, you were in the NICU with lights and sounds and all of the things. We just started praying really hard over all of it and speaking to some really trusted friends who worked through trauma with people. I started listening to The VBAC Link. This is probably when it started obsessively. I was doing Amazon deliveries just for fun on the side. I could take the baby with me so I'd put her in her car seat. This was eventually when she stopped screaming in the car seat so it took a while. I would put my AirPods in and while I did all of these deliveries, I would just listen to back to back to back episodes forever and for months. I think honestly that was probably what started getting me thinking even about more kids. I started learning about VBACs and how really the odds of having a VBAC are not that horrible and that it's really not any riskier than a second C-section and I was like, I really don't want another C-section because that was– I mean, I couldn't even roll over in bed by myself. My husband told me, “You don't usually need me, but that was the one time you actually needed me.” He was like, “Honestly, that was really hard to see you in that much pain and struggling that much.” I was like, “Yeah. I couldn't even pee by myself.” Meagan: Oh, I remember my husband literally helping with my second. He had to hold me up in the shower. I was like, “I just can't stand the whole time in the shower. Can you just hold me up and shower me?” I remember feeling so vulnerable and I was frustrated because I'm like, This isn't my personality. I'm very independent. Why is this happening? Yes. Shelby: Independent and strong. Yes. But also in my fashion, I was walking to the NICU by myself very slowly by day two. I'm like, What was wrong with me? But also, we didn't have a choice. I was about to be discharged. We had to figure something out. Thankfully, I didn't need to stay for 4 days, but because I had nowhere else to go, they were like, “You can stay all 4 days if you want.” I was like, “Okay, great.” But yeah, so I just started learning everything and consuming as much information as I could about physiological birth and about VBACs and there really isn't a ton of information about placental abruption. There are risk factors which I had none other than COVID which no one talks about yet because it had just started, but I didn't have high blood pressure. I obviously didn't do drugs. Meagan: You didn't have multiples. It was a singleton. Yeah. Shelby: It never happened before. My placenta was in a good location. Meagan: Your membranes hadn't ruptured. Shelby: Yeah, my water never ruptured with her so it was crazy. But around when she was probably 9 or 10 months, I couldn't even believe it, but I told my husband, “I'm not totally opposed to having another baby.”He was like, “For real?” We talked about it and we prayed about it a lot and I told God over and over again, “If I get pregnant again, this is going to be the biggest test of my trust in You ever because I know that if I try to worry about it, I'm going to go crazy. If I try to control the outcome which I can't, I'm going to go crazy.” So it basically was like, “If it happens, I'm just going to have to trust you with it fully. No holding back.” Actually, before we were even pregnant, started shopping around for providers. Meagan: That is key. That is so important. Shelby: Yeah. We do have one hospital locally that has midwives and birthing pools. I was like, “Okay, that sounds like a pretty good option for a VBAC.” We went to talk to them– well, I went by myself. I had my list of questions ready. I walked in ready to not take any crap because I also knew a lot about what they were probably going to say and they said, “Yeah.” First of all, they wouldn't call it a VBAC of course because nobody wants to do that. Meagan: TOLAC.Shelby: That was the first thing. I was like, “No. I'm going to do this.” Yeah, so they were like, “We'll allow you to try.” I was like, “Okay.” They were boasting about their VBAC rates and it was 60%. It was not very high and I was like, “Umm, okay. That's not that awesome, but all right.” They started listing off the things you have to do because I had all of these questions ready because I knew. So you have to have an IV hooked up. I was like, That's annoying. I was like, “Can you at least have the hep lock?” They said, “Yeah, that would be fine.” Then they said, “But you have to have continuous monitoring.” I was like, “Okay. I really, really don't want continuous monitoring,” and they try to make it sound better like, “Well, it's waterproof and it's mobile so you can still move around with it,” but I also knew about the statistics of continuous monitoring and how a lot of times they indicate things that aren't actually an issue and then especially if you are a VBAC patient, they're like, “Well, time for another C-section because baby's heart rate is dropping.” Baby's heart rate is supposed to fluctuate as they are descending. Meagan: Just like ours. Shelby: There was that and then they also said, “You can labor in the water, but VBACs aren't allowed to push in the water.” I was like, “Doesn't that defeat the purpose?” Especially if it's a VBAC patient, we should be doing everything we can to ease the labor. Why would you make them get out right when they are feeling like they need to push? They were like, “Oh, well it makes the OBs uncomfortable.” I was like, “Well, the OBs aren't delivering this baby so I don't really care what makes the OBs uncomfortable.”So they made me schedule out all of my prenatal appointments and I went to one of them but I told my husband, “I just don't want to have to fight for it. I know I can. I know that I can go in there and say ‘No thank you' and be confident in myself, but I don't really want to.” So I had never ever even considered a home birth. I don't even remember how, but we somehow heard about the only home birth midwife in our area and I scheduled an appointment with her. I didn't even get established with her until I was 19 weeks. I pushed out the OB care for a really long time when we found out we were pregnant because I knew we didn't really love them. So I just didn't go for a long time. I felt like everything was good. I felt like I was pretty in tune with everything. But yeah, I skipped a little bit but when we got pregnant with our second, it was a lot more immediate where I started praying about it all like, Okay God. This is for You because You are the only one who knows how long this baby is going to gestate and you're the only One who knows if it's going to end how we hope it does. I started praying. This is something. I started praying really specific prayers. I believe that God cares even about the little things which really aren't little things in this, but I prayed that my placenta would be in a good spot and I prayed that my placenta would be strong and that it would make it all the way to term and I prayed that this baby would make it all the way to term. Literally every little concern I had, I pretty much sat in the shower every day and just spoke it aloud. I was like, God, I know that You are a God of healing and restoration and I know that You can do that for me. I believed that through this birth, He was going to heal the trauma from our first because I was like, that feels like this is how it has to go at this point. We went and we met this midwife. She didn't doubt for a second. She didn't say anything that was like, “I'll let you try.” She was like, “You sound like a perfect candidate for a VBAC.” I told her that I had COVID and she was like, “Well, that's probably why your placenta ruptured.” She told me that the placentas she had seen throughout COVID and recently, she was like, “They are not healthy and they are not sustaining a lot of them until the end of pregnancy or if they are, they don't look good by the time they get there.” She wasn't surprised. But yeah, she said, “You sound like a perfect candidate. I think you can do this.” At every appointment with her, we'd sit there for an hour and we'd talk and she totally respected all of my wishes. She'd ask me if I wanted to do something. I'd ask her for information and then she'd let me decide either way which was cool too. With our second pregnancy, we didn't use a Doppler until I was in labor. I could feel her moving first of all so I knew that she was well but we actually started using a fetoscope which was really cool. You can't start using it until after 20 weeks so we had to wait for a really long time to hear her heartbeat but our toddler would watch us do it too. It was really cute because she would walk around with this fetoscope around her neck and she would go put it on daddy's belly and say, “I'm listening to Daddy's baby,” or she'd put it on her belly and it was really sweet. Yeah, we took a full 180 with this pregnancy. I had learned so much at this point that I was so confident in my body and in my instincts and all of it. We didn't find out the gender which with our first one, we found out at 8 weeks with the blood test. We didn't find out gender. I didn't do much prenatal care. We didn't do genetic screening anyway with the first one either because that didn't really matter to us. But yeah, I didn't even do an ultrasound until we were 32 weeks or something. We waited a long time because I had learned a lot about ultrasounds and how we actually don't know as much about them as we might think we know. Meagan: Might think we know. Yeah. Shelby: I read about how sometimes the techs are like, “Oh, they're moving away from it,” because they can feel it and I'm like, “We're not going to do that.” We waited and just had the technician who worked in our midwife's office which was perfect because we could tell her we wanted a very minimal one just to check basically the heart and vital organs and the brain to make sure everything was okay. She would pause the screen and take the measurement she needed and take the Doppler off and everything so it was very minimal. I was like, “I don't really care if they have 10 fingers and toes. We'll figure that out later. Just check the important stuff. Don't tell us the gender.” We did that and she basically was like, “Everything from as far as I can tell looks good.” That was pretty much all we did. My lifestyle was still very active and I was eating as best as I could. I didn't really feel like I had anything that was anything of concern which was perfect. I remember at my 30-week appointment, my midwife looked at me. We hadn't really talked about specific expectations I think for the birth because I didn't really know what I needed or what I wanted but she looked at me at my 30-week appointment without prompting and said, “I think what you really need from me in this birth is for me to just be there and for you to just do your thing.”Meagan: I love that. Shelby: I was like, “That's actually perfect. That's exactly what I want,” because at that point, I had listened to hundreds of birth stories and watched hundreds of birth videos and shown them all to my husband. Everything I was learning, obviously I was soaking it in but if there was anything I felt was pertinent to me, I was showing to him too. He really benefited from that because we went into birth also with him not being afraid. He would watch birth videos with me and he'd be like, “Wow, that's amazing.” That's one of my things. Knowledge is power and educate your husbands too or whoever is going to be with you at your birth. Physiological birth especially, they should be comfortable with it. They should know what it looks like and how it progresses and how to best support you in that. That was huge for us. I made him watch a lot of birth videos and he wasn't even weirded with it by the time it came around. But yeah. She said that and I was like, “Yeah, you know, that sounds great.” We made it all the way to 40 weeks and I just felt completely at peace the whole time. I wasn't worried and I was like, “She's going to come when she's going to come.” Another thing they had told me at the hospital was, “We only let VBACs go to 41 weeks and once you go past 41 weeks, you have to have a C-section.” I was like, “I'm not going to do that. I don't even know what my typical gestation is because I haven't made it term.”Meagan: I was going to say, you didn't even make it to 40 weeks. Shelby: Yeah, so my midwife was like, “Well, if you get to 42 weeks, we'll do an ultrasound and make sure everything is okay,” but she wasn't putting a timeline on it which was so great. I did a lot of courses. I stay at home with my daughters so I just listened to a lot of courses. I did the Christian HypnoBirthing one, our midwives did a course. It was really cool. They got us all together at one of their houses and went through a course with us and our spouses with all the moms who were about to have babies. I also did the Free Birth Society course which I was kind of so/so on but I was like, “If I want to know how to home birth, I just want to know about everything. I want to know about the complications that could happen and what you should do in those situations,” so even though I wasn't planning to free birth, I still wanted to learn all of the things. That was one of the things that I did and I was just listening to constant everything. When we made it to– I guess it was two days before my due date, so July 29, I was having fairly consistent contractions in the evening and so we were all excited. We're timing them and we were texting our moms but then they stopped the next morning which was a Sunday before church so we were getting ready to go to church but then I lost my mucus plug in the shower. I was like, “Okay, just in case something is going to happen, we should probably watch online.” We stayed home, watched online, and nothing was happening all day. We knew that we shouldn't get our hopes up but also you make it that far and you're like, “I'm just ready.” Our church had a picnic that night at a local water park so I was like, “Well, nothing has happened all day. We might as well go because we didn't go to church.” We went to this picnic and we were doing the mini playground with our 1-year-old at the time who is water crazy. I think I jumped to get into one of the tubes and felt something kind of funny then around 8:30 PM, I had a really strong contraction. I was like, “Okay. That was unusual.” I went to the bathroom and had bloody show so I went back out and got my husband. I was like, “We've got to go home.” On the drive home, contractions were 8-10 minutes apart. I showered and we called the midwife and our photographer and my mom and grandma who were coming to get my daughter and the dogs because we didn't know how it would go so we didn't want anybody else there who needed care obviously. Meagan: Well and your last labor was actually pretty dang fast. Shelby: Right, yeah so I was like, “I don't know how this is going to go.” My mom came and helped us clean up the kitchen which is where we were going to put the pool and everything. The midwife and her student arrived at around 10:30 PM. At this point, I was between the coffee table and the couch on my knees holding a comb and my husband was pushing on my back. I labored just in that one position for a long time and that felt as okay as it can feel. Then at around midnight, the midwife heard one of my contractions and was like, “That one sounded a little different. Let's get in the pool.” So I got into the pool and that was instant relief. I was able to sit between contractions and try to relax then after a little while, I was too afraid to feel. We did zero cervical checks. I didn't want to know. I was like, I just want to go. After a while, it was so cool how in tune she was with it all. She goes, “Why don't you see if you can feel your baby's head?” I was like, “Are you serious?” So I reached up and I could feel her head. I was like, “Okay. That gave me a little bit of encouragement to keep going.” I would say probably about an hour after I got into the water, my body started pushing. I didn't push voluntarily once. It was wild. I felt something at one point. We were about to change positions again. I had been in the tub for a little while and they were getting the bedroom ready. I was like, “Hold on, something just happened.” I reached down and a big hand-sized bulge of my amniotic sac was sticking out still full of fluid.Meagan: Yeah, I've seen that. It's so cool. Shelby: I told my husband, “Do you want to feel it?” Meagan: It's like a water balloon sticking out of your vagina. Shelby: Yeah, then the midwife was like, “Okay, we're not going to move. We're going to stay here. Obviously this position is good.” I held a comb in my hand the whole time and I had my husband push on my back because with both labors, I have had total back labor. I don't know why. I just have. I mean, she said I pushed for less than 40 minutes which was crazy. I felt her head come out but we didn't know it was a girl yet so that was fun and then I tried to slow down because I knew that sometimes you need a push or a contraction between and you don't want to get pushed too hard and tear but I couldn't. My body literally just pushed her all the way out in one push. That fetal ejection reflex is definitely a thing. So at 2:14 AM was when she was born and my first contraction was at 8:30 PM. I caught her by myself in the water and pulled her up. She had her cord on like a backpack. It was around both arms and her neck so I had her head out of the water but I could barely get her up. The midwife came over and untangled her and I mean, my husband and I just sat there for probably over 5 minutes before we even checked what the gender was because we were just in awe. We didn't even care. We were like, “Whatever. It's fine either way.” So when we finally looked, we saw it was our girl and we already had a name picked out, Elowen Ruth so we got to hold her for a long time but obviously, my midwife could tell that I was bleeding a lot so she had me get out and I had planned not obviously to do Pitocin unless I really needed it especially before baby was born but it was a lot of bleeding. I tried one of our tinctures first and it didn't really slow it down. So we did some Pitocin. She just did it. I didn't even notice. I was sitting there holding my baby and I was like, “You can't make this moment not perfect.” So we did some Pitocin and delivered the placenta. Then we went out and just sat on the couch and my husband made a snack plate and we all– the photographer and the midwife and her student and my husband and I just sat there talking about the birth and eating snacks.Then after a while, my husband got to hold her while I got cleaned up. I did end up having a lot of bleeding.Meagan: I was just going to ask if the bleeding resolved or did it continue?Shelby: I mean, it stopped pretty well. I didn't end up having to go get checked, but about a week later, my mom and when I took the baby into her first appointment at our nurse practitioner, I wasn't even there for me and she was like, “We are running iron labs on you because you look super pale.” I was really anemic and we didn't know so I think that probably was something. Now I know for the future, if I have a lot of bleeding again, I need to get it checked out really fast because I think it really slowed down my healing. Other than the initial pain of a C-section, my vaginal birth recovery was much more difficult. I could barely walk or stand for 4 weeks. I could not believe it. I remember going to my appointment and I was like, “Is this normal?” The birth went so well. I know it was fast but I think it was because my iron was so low. My body just couldn't heal. I did end up having a little bit of tearing but we didn't stitch it or anything. It healed pretty well on its own. It was super painful when I would have to pee and all of the things but eventually, it healed up on its own. But yeah. I mean, we got to sleep in our own bed. Well, I mean, the husband and the baby got to sleep. I could not. That high we were on, my midwife told me, she was like, “Okay. She's probably going to sleep for the next 5 or 6 hours and you should try to also.” I laid there and I was like, “There is no sleeping. There is none.” After that, she's like, “It's time to nurse 24/7.” Meagan: Of course. Shelby: She's 9 months today and we are still breastfeeding which is huge because with my first, I exclusively pumped for 8.5 months and that was so hard. I was so determined. I also took breastfeeding courses leading up to this baby because I was like, “We are going to make this work because I do not want to pump again.” I love nursing. I have to leave for an Army training here in a couple of weeks and I'm planning to take her with me and still nurse her at night time. I'm like, “We're going to make this go as long as we can.” Yeah, I mean, it was wild but so good. Meagan: Wild but amazing. Shelby: Yeah. Meagan: Did you find it healing? Because sometimes I feel like when you have a harder postpartum where you're like, “I'm not walking as well and I'm feeling gross with the iron,” that can be defeating and frustrating. But did you find that healing or were you like, “I would still take this over the other?” Shelby: Oh absolutely. I mean, I definitely had times where I would just break down not only because of the hormones but everything else. With my husband, I'd be like, “I did it. Why is this so hard?” I had prepared for postpartum. I made sure we had help lined up for our daughter and for meals and for everything so I was really able to take the time I needed. I think if I hadn't done that, I don't know what would have happened honestly because I needed it. I couldn't even sit on the couch. I had to be laying down in the bed or I was in pain. Meagan: Dang. Shelby: I think preparing for it definitely helped and the birth itself made it all worth it. Now, I'm like, Yeah, that was really hard for a couple of weeks but that experience made up for it for sure. Meagan: Worth it. Shelby: Overall, with the recovery, I'm like, Man, that was really hard with the C-section. it was two really hard days with the C-section but everyday is a little better. With my vaginal birth, I was like, Man, everyday is gettig worse. It's hurting more. But it was still really good. Meagan: What was it that was in pain? Was it your pelvic floor? Was it your abdomen? Shelby: It was probably my pelvic floor honestly and also because I think I had torn and she came so fast and there was no slow stretching, I mean– Meagan: Fetal ejection. Shelby: From the first one, it was crazy. I think it really was pelvic floor. I remember one of my friends describing it as she just felt heavy. I was like, “Yes. That is what it is.” It just felt heavy and it ached. Yeah. That was hard. I mean, even being in the shower didn't fix it and that was how my husband and I had planned to bond postpartum was showers together and stuff and I would be in there and I'm like, “I cannot stand up. I have to go back to bed.” Meagan: Too much pressure. Shelby: Yeah, for sure. Meagan: That makes sense. Okay, so let's talk about faith and getting yourself through a really, really rough first birth and you finding that faith. Do you have any advice for the listeners to gain faith in their ability?Shelby: Yeah. I mean, for me it was just knowing that God created my body to do this. No matter what had already happened, my body knew how to birth. I think what helped was I was like, Okay, it's already gotten fully dilated and effaced in my first labor. Maybe not gradually or the way it should have, but I was like, I've kind of already done it. I didn't get to the pushing but just knowing that I was designed to do it and through a lot of prayer and speaking and speaking, “God, you created me to do this. You gave me this baby to grow and to birth,” and just the knowledge is the same thing. Learning about how your body was made to do this is just huge and like I said, just praying those specific prayers for me was so important and proclaiming the promises that God has that He is a healer and a redeemer and He cares about our birth stories. He totally does. That was part of His plan from the beginning. I think for me personally, my birth stories are my testimony. I feel like until these two babies, I really was like, Oh, I grew up in the church and I don't really have a cool story which is fine but also with these babies, I'm like, I have never trusted God more with any situation in my entire life other than with the life of my children and bringing them into this world. For me, that was something I didn't really realize until recently too. That same friend was like, “I think this is your testimony.” I was like, “You're so right.” Meagan: That's cool. Shelby: It totally brought beauty from the whole experience. From the first one, you are like, Why in the world did this happen to me? What good could possibly come of this? We're traumatized. My baby is having sensory overload and I'm not at home. It was all of these things and then realizing that I shared about my story and I was able to connect with so many other moms who were like, “I had an emergency C-section” or “I had a really scary birth story” and now when I hear that a mom had a baby, my first thought is, How did her birth go and how is she doing? Did it go the way she planned and is she hurting? Those are my first thoughts instead of, Oh, is the baby okay? Okay, the baby is okay. It's made me really passionate about postpartum moms and at some point, I'd love to do something with that not while I have a 9-month-old and a 2-year-old but just knowing that there can be beauty that comes out of every story because in the moment, it totally did not feel like it with our first baby. Meagan: Right, yeah. That is the case a lot of the time. It feels like there is no beauty at all anywhere in that story and then you go and you listen to these stories and there is beauty in every single story and growth in every single story. There is learning. I think there is just so much to take from these stories. Then I wanted to go over physiological birth. There's a women and infant's blog or website and it says, “A normal physiological birth and birth are defined globally by midwife organizations as a birth that is powered by the innate human capacity of the birthing person and fetus.” The innate human capacity. “This means that there are no interventions performed that disrupt the normal physiological process in the absence of complications that warrant interventions supporting the physiological process of labor and birth has the potential to enhance birth outcomes and experiences.”I do believe so wholeheartedly that there are sometimes here. You had a real thing happening, a real medical–Shelby: Right. Thank goodness for the medical system in that situation, you know?Meagan: Yes. Thank goodness for intervention in that situation but that doesn't mean that we always have to just get all handsy with birth. It does show the benefits of supporting and fostering physiological birth of individuals include reduced Cesareans, increased breastfeeding success, improved birth experience, and reduced cost of care. Now, this world is very cost-minded especially with insurance and all of those things, but in the end, if you look at the reduced amount of money that we are spending when we are not paying for all of the interventions that happen during birth– and they don't always happen. We know that this is not a blank statement where it's like, “Every birth ends this way,” but usually when there's one, there are more. That adds up. Right? In the end, it's like, is that experience worth another experience? Even if you're in the hospital, you do not– you can totally have a physiological birth in a hospital. I love that so much. Some people don't feel safe out of the hospital. Shelby: Right. That's physiological birth. The key is being where you are safe because your body cannot progress as it needs to if it doesn't feel safe. I majored in animal science and I think about how animals won't have their babies if they don't feel safe. I think that we are mammals and our bodies are the same way. If you feel safest at home, awesome. If you feel safest in the hospital where you know you can get care right away, awesome. Yeah. You definitely just have to make that decision for yourself. Meagan: Yeah. I had a client who really wanted a home birth really, really badly. She decided not to, but decided to labor at home as long as possible and she was laboring and she was laboring and she was laboring and I was like, This labor. Something is off. Something is off. It was going but it wasn't really going and through chatting with her and doing a fear-clearing and fear-release to see if we could get over to that next stage, she never said, “I want to go to the hospital.” She didn't say those words but everything else that she was saying to me, that's what I heard. I said, “Why don't we go to the hospital? If we end up coming back home, that's okay but let's go and let's just see how things are going.” She was like, “I don't know,” because she was steering off of her plan in her mind of laboring at home. I said, “Okay, cool. It's going to be your decision.” About 25 minutes later, she was like, “Yeah, let's do it.” I'm not kidding you. The second she got into that car, it was a game changer. Shelby: Oh my gosh. Meagan: Because her mind was like, I'm going. She immediately felt better and safe. She didn't realize that's where she felt safer. We went. We had a total physiological birth. In fact, we didn't know if we were going to make it. She had the baby on the bed and the doctor was not there. Shelby: There's so much mental work that goes into it and everything. For me, knowing that I was going to my house. I hate packing and knowing I didn't have to leave and go somewhere, that was how I felt safe but I know a lot of people who are like, “No, I want to be in the hospital.” I'm like, “Great. Do it. Just make sure you are informed.” Meagan: Make sure you are informed. That is the ending tidbit here to this story. Be informed. Take a VBAC class. We have our VBAC class online. If you have any questions online, you can always email us on Instagram or in our email at info@thevbaclink.com. Hire a doula if you can. Hire a provider that you really, really trust to support you. Find that birthing location. Get the information. Learn what is important to you because what's important to you is going to stand out that day that you are in labor. Get educated. Love yourself. Have faith in you and your body and your baby. You are amazing. You are a true Woman of Strength. Shelby: Yes. So good. Thank you so much. Meagan: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today's episode is the final episode of this season, thank you so much to all my listeners and guests! The podcast will be taking a short break but will be back in October 2024. Today's guest is VBAC Educator, Ashley Winning. We chatted about VBACs and HBACs and how they are a really great, safe option for many women wanting to give birth vaginally after having a caesarean. Follow Ashley here https://www.instagram.com/ashleylwinning/  To learn more about my doula packages visit https://www.thenurturenest.co.uk/doula-services To purchase one of my courses, please visit https://www.thenurturenest.co.uk/courses If you have benefitted from this podcast and would like to say thanks, you can now buy me a coffee! https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thenurturenest View my birthy book recommendations here https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/influencer-e2ad919d  Follow me on Instagram here https://www.instagram.com/the_nurture_nest/ Follow me on Facebook here https://www.facebook.com/thenurturenesthypno Get 10% off your birth pool here https://go.referralcandy.com/share/JKHGBJ3 Get 10% off a BabyCare TENS Machine. USE CODE 10NURTURENEST http://babycaretens.com?afmc=46

Women of Strength, we have a truly inspiring story for you today! Ashley joins us from the Liverpool/Sydney area in Australia and shares her VBAC with an inverted T special scar and extension story. During her first Cesarean, Ashley's OB mentioned that she had only performed that kind of incision one other time in her entire career and that Ashley would never have a vaginal birth.Ashley did not find out the actual circumstances around her first Cesarean until she requested her operative notes during her second pregnancy. In spite of what she was told, her heart longed for a VBAC. She committed to doing all she could to try and find a VBAC-supportive provider as long as it was medically safe to do so. Ashley went into spontaneous labor and utilized the tools available to help her baby rotate from a posterior position. She and her provider both stayed patient, trusted the process, and after pushing for 20 minutes, her baby girl was earthside!Special Scars, Special Hope Facebook GroupThe VBAC Link Blog: Special Scars, Special HopeHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. How are you today? I hope you are doing amazing. We have our friend, Ashley, with us today and you guys, she is from Australia. It has been so crazy. I don't know why I cannot understand time. We were talking about how we literally had to Google, “What time will it be in Australia if it's this time in Utah?” It was such a challenge to get this scheduled but I'm so grateful for Ashley for taking the time out of her Monday morning recording with us today so welcome, Ashley. Thank you for being here. Ashley: Thank you so much for having me on. Like I was saying to you before, The VBAC Link was so invaluable to me with all of the research and the statistics and just trying to hear other people's stories to help me change my mindset to get through it so I'm really excited to add to that with my story as well. Meagan: Me too. Your story has a little extra tidbit to it. Something that we know happens because we've got lots of stories on them as well. We actually haven't had one for a few minutes and yours is a special scar. You had an inverted T with an extension. Do you want to share with our listeners exactly what that means? We've had some J scars. There are all different special scars. An extension we know goes past the initial cut or incision. But tell us about the T. Ashley: Yeah, so I actually only found out after the surgery that it was an inverted T but I didn't know what that entailed so I had to do a bit of my own research especially when I fell pregnant the second time to know what was involved with that. Yeah, it was really scary just to see that I had a vertical cut in the middle. Obviously, you've got your normal horizontal cut–Meagan: Low transverse, yep. Ashley: Yeah, that's right and then through the center going vertically I had a 3-centimeter cut which was obviously riskier. A lot of providers said no to me when I started to look into it when I was pregnant the second time and started to have a look to get somebody to take me on. Even the public hospital that I had originally gone to with my son actually said, “No, you will have to have a Cesarean if you come through us.” In Australia, they can't really say no to you in a public hospital if that's what your wishes are, but I wanted somebody who was going to be supportive of me and the whole journey. So yeah. That's where I come to going private instead and having an obstetrician this time which I know is quite rare with VBACs. You find a lot of people who won't take you on. I had a really amazing experience if anyone is listening from Sydney. I'm in Liverpool and my provider was Brian Hollis and he's extremely VBAC friendly. He was amazing. He had actually somebody with an inverted T before. Meagan: Really? Okay, so he had also seen one. Definitely there are so many providers out there who do support VBAC and then they have a special scar patient come in and they are like, “I really like VBAC but I don't know. I've never seen this before.” But we know it exists so I can't wait for you to share more in your story and about him maybe because we know it's so hard. It's so hard to find these providers. It's hard enough to just find a VBAC-supportive provider in general and then that's something unique that Australia does that at least here in Utah we don't do with the private and public. We just have this hospital and then we have the birth centers and then we have the home births. There is not the dramatic difference in the hospital system like in your case. Okay. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to dive it. I do have a Review of the Week. I'm so excited that I'm talking so fast. I do have a Review of the Week and then we'll get into those stories. Like you said, you didn't find out until after. That's is the case so many times. They don't even say during. We'll go into this as well if they went into why but sometimes there's not even a clear answer to, Okay, I now have this different, unique scar but why? We're going to get into that. We have this review from xxooxx and it says, “Informative, supportive, and empowering.” It says, “After having a C-section that I certainly did not want and that I did not know was not necessary, I knew nothing about VBACs. I had dove head-first into this podcast and on top of learning so much, I became informed and empowered to get my VBAC which I got. Thank you, Julie and Meagan, for loving your listeners and pouring your knowledge and support into us. What you do matters and I will always recommend The VBAC Link.”Well, thank you, xxooxx, for that amazing review. Congratulations on your VBAC and I couldn't agree more. This podcast really is so empowering and so informative like you were even just saying. I think a lot of this comes from the storytellers and the moms and the Women of Strength. This is just so amazing. I definitely suggest sharing this podcast to anybody. If they're not a VBAC mom, if they're a first-time mom or a second-time mom, I definitely suggest that because I truly believe that the stories on this podcast will help people avoid a Cesarean in general. Meagan: Okay, cute Ashley. You found out after so how did this first birth lead up to this inverted T with an extension? Ashley: Yeah, so I guess my story starts in 2020. I had a low-risk pregnancy and other than being sick the whole time but giving birth in March 2021 with my son and it was super traumatic. It took a long time to heal physically and mentally from it but my waters broke on their own two days before my due date. I had gone into the public hospital I was booked in for. I had seen the same midwife the whole pregnancy which was really fantastic. Midwives are amazing and just empowering telling a first-time mom, “You can do this.” I had no signs that anything would be wrong. So as usual, I went back home and then the contractions started that night. They started to really ramp up and become heavier so that night at about midnight or so, I tried to get some sleep. I wanted to stay home as long as possible. At 3:30 AM, I had to go to the hospital. I was just beyond. The pain in my back was just– yeah. I didn't know if this was normal but in the end, when I got to the hospital, I was only 3 centimeters dilated. I had used the gas and the TENS to get through the contractions but he was posterior which I was nervous about. I didn't know as many things as I knew in the second pregnancy in terms of Spinning Babies and trying to get into good positioning. With my son, I don't know how it happened but he was posterior and the pain was just unbearable. Meagan: And it happens. We learn through pelvic dynamic courses and things that sometimes really truly, babies have to enter in a posterior position before they get into an anterior position and sometimes that means back labor. It is very, very intense. It really is intense. Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, it was. At this point, it went on for a few hours and I just actually couldn't deal with it anymore so I had the epidural which turned out to be quite a good thing for me. It was relieving of some of that back pain but I still had felt a lot of it through it so it's almost like it didn't seem to work as much as I thought it would at that point. The contractions through my back were still there. We tried to do some things before I had the epidural to get into a better position, but it wasn't working for me. Every contraction, my son's heart rate would drop and the midwife was really good in just letting me keep going. “Let's see. Let's see.” But as soon as the doctor on call knew that it had been quite a few hours came into check me, “You've got meconium in your waters. You have to have a Cesarean.” I was just devastated because I had really thought that this was just going to be a great, empowering birth. I was so excited to give birth and to hear that it wasn't going to go the way that I had intended, I was devastated and crying. But yeah, he was in a compound position as well so he did have his hand up past his head. There were a few things going against me in that time. But despite all of this, they gave me a little bit more time to keep going and I did get to 9 centimeters. I was in a position where they thought, “Okay.” My midwife was pushing, “Let's try. Let's try and see if she can continue and maybe we can try some repositioning to get him out,” but the doctor was, “No. Cesarean. There is meconium in the waters. Let's get him out.” I was so exhausted. It had been 34 hours from the time my waters broke and I just gave in. When I was in that vulnerable position of just so much pain and didn't know any better, I just said, “Okay, I'll give in and I'll have the Cesarean.” During the Cesarean preparing, I heard the surgeon say to her assistant, “She's 9 centimeters,” and explaining it and the assistant said, “Should we just see? The head is almost there.” There was a little bit of whispering and then it all just stopped. I was just laying there terrified like, What's going on? They're talking about how far I've progressed and that they were concerned about me having a Cesarean.Meagan: Your baby was so low. Ashley: Yes. I found out later that he was so low that they had to push him back up during the Cesarean. Meagan: Did they push him back up vaginally? Ashley: Yes. Yeah. Meagan: They do that sometimes where they go in vaginally where one doctor is pulling from the other end and one doctor is pushing from the other end vaginally Ashley: Yes. Obviously the recovery is like you gave birth, isn't it? Meagan: Yeah. Ashley: Yeah. The doctor panicked and I was in such a blur that my husband and I actually debriefed afterward and he said, “I've never been so terrified.” A team of doctors just flew in. She was making calls. Obviously, when she started to begin the Cesarean, she saw that she couldn't grab him. He was too low and that's why they had to cut vertically but nothing was explained to us. We were just lying there terrified. The tarp was up. Meagan: They were doing their thing. Ashley: Yeah. And with our first child, we didn't know what to expect anyway but my husband just said there were all of these people who just flew in and there were all of these conversations and whispers. Not long later, he emerged. The tarp wasn't lowered and he wasn't breathing. He started breathing once they transferred him to resus, but that time was the longest time. Meagan: Absolutely. It feels like 5 hours. Ashley: Absolutely, yeah. I don't even know how long it was but it felt like forever. By the time that they placed him on me for the standard amount of time I suppose, I was in just a shock that the spinal block had made me have the shakes. It was just not what I was hoping for. Meagan: Anticipated, yeah. Ashley: Yeah. They wheeled him away with my husband. They went and then I was to go separately into recovery. Before I did that, the doctor then lowered the tarp and said to me, “You will never have a vaginal birth. I've only had to do what I just did twice in my career.” Meagan: Oh wow. Ashley: Yeah, and just so brutal. Just the shock of that was like, I didn't want this either. It was just really hard to hear because I just had this baby not how I had anticipated and to hear that for the future was a big shock to me. Going into recovery and then later on that initial bond with my son, I was just in so much pain that it was hard to hold him. It really took a long time to recover from it. The next day, she did come and talk to me. She said that she had to cut an extension and cut an inverted T incision of 3 centimeters to get him out. She said, “Yeah. I'm so lucky it wasn't worse.” Meagan: Wow. Ashley: Yeah, then she left and I just had to go home and start my new life as a mum with just this recovery. I could hardly walk. As a Cesarean, it's already painful, but I had all of this pain and it left me with an awful feeling mentally as well. I just obviously adored my son. I was so happy to be a mum but that lead-up and then just bang. That's how you're giving birth, it was just a shock. Yeah, so that's what happened. The details of it I found out with the second pregnancy. I didn't know afterward that was our only conversation we had. I didn't get any discharge notes with that information. It wasn't until I was pregnant the second time that I requested my hospital notes. Meagan: So important. So important to do. I really encourage anybody whether you were at one, two, different hospitals and all of the things, request your records because you really do learn a lot about what really transpired that day in your op-reports. Ashley: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I guess that brings me to now with pregnancy. A lot better, a lot happier result but I fell pregnant in May 2023. Both my pregnancies were normal, and low-risk. I was a little sick and I actually got quite dizzy and things like that but nothing that was going to impact me from giving the VBAC a try. Like I mentioned, I had gone to a few different providers and when I had my pelvic floor checks and things after my first son, I spoke to the doctors there and said, “Would it be possible to have a VBAC here?” They said no. That was something that was a big shock to me. I didn't expect that I would have to look for somebody. Yeah. That was a big shock. I found out through some of my friends about this OB who was quite VBAC-supportive and I knew I wanted to give it a try and ultimately, if I did have to have the Cesarean, I would be okay with it but I just wanted to try. I heard about this OB and had an appointment with him. My husband and I after the initial appointment were instantly comfortable with him. He was so supportive. He said to me, “Ashley, is this what you want to do?” I said, “Yeah. I really would like to try.” He goes, “Well, that's what we're going to do.”Meagan: I love that.Ashley: Yeah. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. He's so honest about this is how it's going to be.” “If you want to give it a go, these would be my conditions,” which were to have monitoring which I was fine with. I still was a little bit nervous. I know that some people would rather have no monitoring and just let your body tell you, but with the special scar, I thought if there are any signs of rupture, I really want to know.Meagan: That's actually a very common request from a provider in a VBAC situation. They usually want continuous monitoring. You can fight not to have continuous monitoring, but that's a very normal request. On top of VBAC, having a special scar, it's even more of a normal request for a provider to say, “Yeah, let's totally do this. I just want to monitor things,” because we do know that one of the signs of uterine rupture is fetal distress. Ashley: Yeah, that's right. He was just really supportive about, “Let's put a birth plan together and see what you want to do and I'll see what is the best thing to do.”During the pregnancy, I tried to do as much listening to podcasts. That's how I came across your page and Instagram just constantly looking for information. It's actually a beautiful Facebook group called, Special Scars, Special Hope. Being in Australia, I was just like, this is global. There were so many amazing women on there offering support and advice. There was even information on there– statistics. Yeah. I did a little bit of research but I didn't want to overwhelm myself. I just wanted to have a really strong mindset. There were times of doubt and, Maybe I'll just book the Cesarean, but then I thought, No, this is what I want. Let's give it a try. My OB was really supportive from the beginning about, Let's just see how we go. He retrieved my notes and he found out that all of those details where they had to push him back up vaginally and they had to do this extension cut and all those kind of things. It was good that he was prepared. He knew and I just tried to stay as active as I could through the pregnancy. I did the dates at the end. I did the raspberry leaf tea and the vitamins. I just was always on the ball. I tried to do as much as I could to prepare myself physically, but yeah.The conditions with my OB were that we said I would be giving birth at the public hospital that is next to the private. It was a different one to before because of any emergencies and that kind of thing. He would have to do some examinations every hour or so which I was also fine about. Obviously, I couldn't use water. That was one thing I really wanted. I wanted to be able to get into the tub. Meagan: Birth in the water. Ashley: Yeah, or even just use it for pain management. He said, “No, because of the monitoring,” so that was one thing I was ugh about. I thought, When I do go into labor and it starts, I will try and use water at home before I get to the hospital. My husband was so supportive of me and said, “I will help you. Let's do this. If you want to use the water–” he was a little bit nervous about, “When they start to ramp up, we really need to leave” because the hospital was about 30 minutes away. We just wanted to be at a point that no later than 5 minutes or so apart and they wanted me in. Meagan: Well, and you had already made it to 9 centimeters before so even though you'd be a first-time mom pushing baby out vaginally, your cervix is not as much like a first-time mom. Ashley: Exactly right. That was something that got me through the whole labor. I just kept saying to myself, My body knows how to do this. I've gotten here before. I know what to do. That was just something in times of doubt, I would just keep saying. But yes, my OB said at any point that he was concerned, we'd have the discussion and if anything was to go wrong, we'd be calling a C-section straightaway. I was fine about that. I came in at 39 weeks. Sorry, I booked at 39 weeks for a stretch and sweep but I got COVID. Meagan: Oh no. Ashley: My whole family all got COVID and I was just like, “No.” I couldn't hardly breathe. I was congested and everything. I'm not going into labor like this. I've done that much preparation. So I just tried to rest and get better. It was put out until 40 weeks. I had until 41 weeks then he said we would be having a discussion about a Cesarean. He didn't want me to go too long with the scar. So 40 weeks, my due date. I came in for a stretch and sweep. I came home to relax after, nothing. Nothing at all happened. No pain, nothing. Two days later, I started to have some mild period pains. I carried on the day with my son. I just kept going but I had been attending acupuncture weekly from 36 weeks. I had another session at 6:30 that night and by 9:30, the pain really started to ramp up. I decided to try and sleep but by the time I had a shower, laid down in bed, and at 10:00, they were coming faster, stronger, and I just knew I wanted to stay home as long as possible. I got into the shower then I did some type of positioning that I could get comfortable with the TENS machine on but I knew the pain of the back and I just knew that this baby had to be posterior again because the feeling was just like I had experienced it yesterday. Meagan: Deja vu. Ashley: Yeah. I just said to my husband, “She's posterior. I just know it.” We left for the hospital at 1:30 in the morning. We got there and I had to walk a really long distance from the car to the birthing unit. It was just so odd. There was no one there, no wheelchairs for me, just no one. Meagan: Huh. Ashley: Yeah, I was so shocked. I was like, What's going on? I just said, “This is going to help me progress.” Any little obstacle that would come up, I just said, “I'm going to be able to do this.” Helping I think in the end actually helped my labor progress.Meagan: I was thinking that. This is actually probably really good. That's a lot of movement for the pelvis and good for the baby to rotate. Ashley: I was having these contractions that I had to get on the floor to breathe them out and rock through them. It took us a long time to get from the car to the birthing unit because I had to keep stopping but when I did get there, they were like, “Wow. You are almost 5 centimeters. You have progressed really quickly.” Meagan: Just like you wanted. Ashley: Yeah. The contractions then were so weird. It was like I had to push but it was too early to push. She was posterior. It was confirmed so that pressure was just such an odd labor. I didn't have that at all even though I was posterior with my son too. This one was like an intense pushing feeling that I couldn't control. Then yeah. Once I had discovered that she was posterior too, I just tried to get into some good positioning. I had done a lot of research about posterior because I was terrified of it happening again. I got on the ball trying to rock back and forth and my husband was such a great support because we had done a little bit of information reading about this pressure point on the lower back. Meagan: The sacrum?Ashley: Yes, that's it so anytime I had these contractions, he would just push on there and I swear by that. I have to say more than the TENS machine, more than anything, that got me through that labor. But yeah. At one stage, I sat on the toilet to try and help with the pressure of this pushing and my waters broke. Yeah. That really ramped up from there. I was 6 centimeters at that point and it was unbearable. I couldn't take it anymore. I asked for the epidural and the midwife was like, “Are you sure you want to do that? You said you didn't want to.” I just knew that I had to do it. I couldn't take it any longer. I was at that point where I was asking, “Just wheel me in. I'll just have the Cesarean.” I didn't want that. I wanted to keep trying so I had the epidural and I fell asleep. It was just like my body needed that. Meagan: Yeah. Rest and relaxation can really be the best tool in labor. Even in early labor, we are so excited and want to keep going but rest and relaxation. Ashley: I was so tired, yeah. I just relaxed. My body completely relaxed and I fell asleep for about an hour. At that point, my OB came in to see me and measured me and discovered that baby had turned while I was sleeping and I was 10 centimeters. In that hour, I had progressed that quickly. He looked at me and said, “Ashley, you're having your VBAC.” He said, “You're going to push this baby out. Within a half hour or so, this baby will be here.” I just was in pure– I've got the feeling all over again. I just was so in a pure disbelief. I was just so happy and I just said to my husband, “We've done it. This is it. This is the moment that I really wanted.” Yeah. It's making me emotional all over again. I pushed for about 20 minutes under his guidance. I still had feeling and control in my legs because I didn't have the epidural at full dose so that really helped and within 20 minutes, my baby girl was born.And just that feeling of pure joy and pure connection, that bond was just immediate. Pride, shock. Meagan: It was just all of it. Ashley: When they laid her on my chest, I will never forget my husband– the pride he had in me. Yeah, it was just beautiful and it was truly empowering. It was a beautiful moment. It's just something you never forget. She's 12 weeks now and I just relive that moment over and over. But yeah, it was my healing birth. Yeah, it was beautiful. It was everything that I had hoped for. Just shock, really because it was such a different experience to the emergency that I had with my son. I had that golden hour. She wasn't taken away from me like my son was. They gave me that time with her and it was just pure disbelief in a beautiful way. Yeah, so that's it. I recovered so much quicker and I think for me, that chapter of my life closed. It was just a beautiful way to really celebrate what birthing should be like and how I should feel afterward. You know, that bond that you should have. Yeah. That's me. Meagan: I felt all of the emotions as you were sharing it and I know that I get an extra advantage because I can see your face and I can see you get teary. Oh, just to see it in your face. That moment is amazing when you realize you've done it and it is so overwhelming in all of the ways but holy cow, I am so happy for you. I am so glad that you were able to find the support because it's just so hard. It's so hard and you were even told– you hadn't even met your baby yet really and were told, “Just to let you know, you will never have a baby vaginally.” To even be told that in that space, that in itself is so overwhelming and being told, “No. No one here is going to support you. No one.” When you are proof along with so many other Women of Strength who have had special scars and gone on to have a vaginal birth that it is possible and you do not have to but when you're in that vulnerable state, I can just picture my own C-sections in an OR with the drape up and the bright lights and the beepings and if I were told that I would never have a baby vaginally again, I would already be in that emotional intimate space and vulnerable where I could have and many people could be like, Okay and then just never look past it and that was it. I'll never deliver vaginally. But that's where I think this podcast just is so important for people to listen and hear these stories that you may be told something and that may be true. That really may be the best choice in the future, right? It may be medically best or emotionally best but it doesn't mean it is always what your fate has to be for the rest of your life when having a baby. Ashley: Yeah, and when I was told that and then I fell pregnant, I thought to myself, Okay, if that is what is medically necessary, I will do that. I just want my baby here naturally and safely. If it isn't the way that I had hoped then that's okay. At one point, I even looked at the maternal-assisted Cesarean and I had that discussion with my OB. He said, “Yep Ashley, if you decide you're going to have the Cesarean elective, I'll do that for you.” He's like, “I will make it beautiful for you. I can play music you like. I'll do whatever you like. It will be different from the first.” I said to myself, Okay. That is an option if I just feel that. Meagan: That's a good plan B. Ashley: Yeah, that's right. Exactly. He said if we call it early enough and there are no signs of rupturing, “I can still do that for you.” I still felt really comfortable going in that no matter what, this would hopefully be a better experience than what I had. But yeah, you're right. There's almost this stigma that C-sections, especially with special scars, that your body failed. I wanted to break the mold on that that bodies aren't broken. I almost left my first baby coming home with him and I just looked at him and loved him and adored him but I also felt to myself, That's not how I wanted to bond with you by laying here and I can't move. I felt like my body was broken or it had let me down and this time around, I just believed in myself. I believed in my body and I said to myself, “Your mindset is everything. Going in, this mindset is how I'm going to birth this baby and get through it.” Birthing is incredible and I feel like we should feel incredible afterward. Meagan: Absolutely. Birth is incredible and it really is incredible no matter what, but the experience really does matter. We hear the whole “safe mom, safe baby” but of course, duh. That experience really, really counts and it sticks with us really for the rest of our lives. I mean, my oldest is going to be 13 in just a few months and I still remember her birth. My other is 10 and I remember her birth and of course, my VBAC baby I remember his birth and those are sticking with me. They are sticking with me and it's just I love that your provider was like, “Listen. I'm going to support here and if it goes here, I'm still going to support you and no matter what, we are going to make this a better experience for you.” I love that your provider saw the better experience as an important part. Ashley: Yeah. I'm paying for him and his expertise. But I almost felt like he just wanted me to be happy. For him, it was like, “I can see your pain. I want you to be happy this time around.” We felt that from the initial appointment. It was more than just, “I'm paying for you. You have to do this.” It was like, “Help me get a better experience for you. What do you want? What can I do?” That was so important to me so it was wonderful. It was really important to me to acknowledge him as well because he was such an amazing support. Meagan: Yes. I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy for you. I do just want to mention that group again, you guys. Special Scars, Special Hope on Facebook. What kinds of things did you see in your experience in that group?Ashley: It's just hearing other people's stories because I would see VBAC stories and I was like, Yes, 100%. I need to do this and I need to do that. It's got that little bit of a fear factor with it because it is a special scar and not that many people attempt it. So to have a group of women globally who do attempt it and just empower each other like, “Hey, I had an amazing experience. This is what I did,” that was just invaluable to me taking on all of this advice. Quite a lot of these women are in the U.S. and they do talk about how providers can either be for you or against you and just write you off completely. It is similar here too. There were quite a few who said, “No way.” They don't want that liability so yeah, it was just really great to have that group with such amazing, brave women who are going out there and sharing their story on there because it helps people like me who are like, Look, it can happen. It's rare, but it's not impossible. That group is amazing. I encourage anybody who has had all of these different types of scars on there, not just inverted T. There are people who have had inverted J's and extensions. So anything a little bit special. Meagan: Yes. I was going to go over the C-section incision types. We've got the low transverse which is considered the safest way to VBAC having a low, boring, low transverse. But then we have a low vertical which means they cut lower in the abdominal segment and it's vertical up and down. Then we have classical which is higher and sometimes we have classical scars when maybe a baby is very preterm, very small and the baby can come out that way, multiples, or maybe if a baby is transverse but it's earlier on or something like that, they may have to go higher. Then there is inverted T and like I said, inverted J's and then we have extensions on all of these. There have even been low transverse with an extension where it can go further or that's where it goes into that J. Yeah, there are just so many different types and honestly, the statistics are not that powerful out there. There are not a ton and I don't know. I would say there's not a ton of really solid concrete. There are some but they are smaller. Ashley: Yeah, really hard. I didn't want to overwhelm myself with statistics and things. A lot of people in that group share the rupture risks and the statistics and what they throw at you, these OBs are, “You've got a 20% risk of rupturing,” that would turn anybody away. I just knew from women in this group that I had just glanced over seeing that it's not that high. Don't let anyone tell you it's that high. Obviously, there are situations when you need to have the Cesarean because it is unsafe, but in my case, I knew that it wasn't a 20% rupture risk. I knew that there was definitely less and mine was 3 centimeters. It can be bigger than that obviously, but when I had spoken to my OB, he said, “It is 3 centimeters but in the span of your whole labor progressing, 3 centimeters is not a big deal.”Meagan: That's pretty small. Ashley: Yeah, it's pretty small so even just hearing that, it was like, “Wow, you are telling me something different than all of these other people.” It's good to back yourself up a little bit in your conversations and have just that little bit of research behind you. Meagan: Yes. We are also going to have a bunch of links in the show notes so if you guys want to go check that out, I highly suggest it. Go check out the show notes. We're also going to have the link to that group because anytime anybody has a special scar, I'm like, This is the group. It's so empowering over there. It's so informative. There are not many groups like that. Specialscars.org as well. Ashley: But even most of the people who have had a rupture as well, that group is just a safe space to talk about how you are feeling and there's a lot of women on there who have become friends really just in sharing their experience. So yeah, it's a really informative, great group. Meagan: Yep. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for taking the time out and figuring out the time changes and being here with us just 12 weeks after your VBAC. Ashley: Thank you and thank you for everything you do to help empower women. Obviously, it's reaching globally and it's just so informative and supportive. Yeah, it's amazing so thank you for everything you do. Meagan: Absolutely.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Grace found The VBAC Link Podcast while still in the hospital after her first unexpected C-section. Her recovery was brutal and she knew she never wanted to experience that again. Grace is a labor and delivery nurse located on the Wisconsin/Illinois border. She shares what it was like preparing for her VBAC while working at a hospital that didn't support VBAC. Though she found a supportive practice, Grace faced unexpected pressure for interventions at the end of her pregnancy. Ultimately, she advocated her VBAC wishes and they continued to support her.When she contracted a fever and her baby had prolonged heart decels at 10 centimeters, Grace was prepped and wheeled to the OR. She mentally surrendered to the idea of another C-section. But when baby's heart recovered, she was encouraged to keep pushing! Her baby boy came out in just four pushes and Grace was able to achieve the VBAC she so deeply desired. The VBAC Link Blog: Finding a VBAC-supportive ProviderThe VBAC Link Blog: 10 Signs to Switch Your ProviderThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC vs Repeat C-sectionHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength, we've got a VBAC story coming your way today. We've got our friend, Grace. Where are you? Illinois? Grace: Yep. I'm right in between Milwaukee and Chicago right on the Wisconsin/Illinois border. Meagan: Okay, awesome. Well welcome to the show and she does have a little babe right now with her. How old is your baby?Grace: He just turned a month old yesterday. Meagan: A month old and this is your VBAC baby. Grace: Yep. There he is. The man himself. Meagan: This is so fresh. Oh my gosh. I love when we get fresh stories. I feel like you're probably still even processing as you tell your story. Grace: Yep. I am. I practiced a couple times to make sure I didn't leave out important details. Meagan: Well, we are so excited to have you on the show. We do have a Review of the Week and then we're going to get into your stories and then we're going to talk a little bit about when the odds are stacked against you at the end and then spoiler alert, Grace is a labor and delivery nurse so I'm going to ask her some questions about how it is to be a labor and delivery nurse and supporting VBAC in her community. Okay, so we have this review. Its title is, “Tears plus stories plus hope plus joy equals education.” It says, “I discovered these ladies when I was 9 months postpartum from a very traumatic section and was eagerly beginning to research how to heal and build a new birth team for when my second baby came along. Now just a few months later, I've listened to almost all of the episodes and I hear the joy and the redemption these mamas have when they are in control of their births. It spurs me on towards my goal of one day having a successful VBAC. I cry when they cry. I feel joy when they feel joy. I feel sadness when they feel sadness and encouragement and elation when they succeed. It's been quite the therapeutic discovery and I'm so glad Julie and Meagan created this resource. Each time Meagan or Julie directly addresses the audience as Women of Strength, I get goosebumps and I know in my heart I AM and WILL BE that woman of strength. I hope to one day share my version of success within this community.” That just gave me the chills so I'm just going to add tears plus stories plus hope plus joy plus chills equals education to that one. Thank you so much for your review. If you have not done so, as always, we would love them and you never know, you may just be read on the next podcast. Meagan: Okay, cute Grace. Grace: Hello. Meagan: Welcome, welcome. Let's get going into your stories. Grace: Okay, so first of all, thank you for having me. This is amazing. I'm glad I had a VBAC but it's even cooler that I get to be on the podcast. For my first pregnancy, I had just missed my first period so I took the test and was positive. I called my doctor and scheduled an appointment. I was about 6 weeks. At this appointment,  my doctor started calculating my due date with his little due date calculator and said, “Okay, it's about May 26th. I'm going to induce you May 24th,” right off the bat. He decided we were going to be an induction. He said, “Since you are a first-time mom, it will reduce your risk of having to have a C-section if we schedule an induction.” I later found out he was actually just going to be out of town on Memorial Day weekend so he was pre-planning that for himself. But I didn't know any better. I was like, “Okay, cool. I'll know when I'm having the baby. I won't have to worry about going into labor or anything.” Pregnancy went by with no complications. It was nice and smooth. At 39 weeks, he addressed again that we would be going in for an induction but he would just do the Cervadil. I went in that morning and they placed the Cervadil and told me, “Don't move. Lay as flat as you can. You can only get up to go to the bathroom,” which is not true.Meagan: Hashtag false. Grace: I lay there all day. They take the Cervadil out and it didn't do much for me. I wasn't favorable in the first place. I was closed, thick, high, and then he checked me after the Cervadil and said the same thing. Actually, he told me that he's never done this before but he's just going to discharge me. He didn't want to start anything else or doing anything. I appreciate him not just pushing Pitocin when he didn't think it was going to be a good idea. We left feeling super discouraged because we told everyone we were going to have a baby and then we were going home. He said, “Come in a week later if I don't go into labor naturally. Just come in and we'll try again.” So I didn't. We went in the following week. They put in the Cervadil again. They actually did two rounds of it this time and this time we didn't tell anybody we were going to the hospital. We just didn't want the, “Is the baby here yet?” and all of those questions adding to the anxiety of being in labor. So they took the second round of Cervadil out and still didn't really have any change. I wasn't contracting or cramping or anything but they just let me stay there. I ended up going into labor naturally which I don't have the statistic verified but he told me that only 20% of people will go into labor with Cervadil alone. Most people need Pitocin or something else and some other intervention to actually cause labor. But my labor started. Again, he didn't give me Pitocin which again, I'm grateful for. I was contracting all day. I have a pretty low pain tolerance so I had requested something for pain. They gave me an IV pain medication that I didn't really like. It worked for a little bit but also made me feel a little strange.The nurses were like, “Okay, instead of getting more of the pain medicine, we recommend that you get the epidural.” This was about 12 hours after the contractions started.” I did get the epidural. I was still only a 1 at this point. They checked me after the epidural and he broke my water without really telling me that that's what was happening. It just kind of happened. He broke my water and then I pretty much immediately went to 5 centimeters after he did that within the hour. I was like, “Okay, cool. It's finally happening. I'm at 5 centimeters. I don't feel any pain from the contractions. I have this epidural that's working maybe even too good,” because I couldn't even wiggle my toes but baby's heart rate started dropping. This was a back and forth, “Are we going to have a C-section? No. Just kidding. You're fine. You can push later on. You'll dilate about a centimeter an hour,” is what they told me. But then they also had me come in and sign a consent form for a C-section. They put oxygen on me and repositioned me a little bit then they just called the C-section. We went to the OR that I had not even toured during our hospital tour because I was like, “I don't need to see that. I won't need a C-section so I don't need to see what the OR looks like,” but then I ended up in there. My husband was in the hallway waiting to come in and the anesthesiologist was super supportive. She could tell I was losing it. They brought him in and the procedure itself went fine. There were no complications. Baby came out healthy. She had a cord wrapped around her foot twice which the doctor said he thinks maybe was why she didn't come down, but I'm not sure. They took her over to the warmer and did all of her checks and everything. It felt like she was over there forever. Then they brought her swaddled over to me. We did the little cheek-to-cheek skin-to-skin. We got our classic C-section family photo on the OR table with our scrub hats on and then my husband and daughter left the room and they finished putting me back together. Then they took me to recovery which I was in there by myself. I had really bad shakes from the hormones or epidural. I'm not sure but I was shaking like crazy. That felt like I was in there forever by myself and then they finally brought her to me. She latched right away so at least I got to breastfeed her but we completely missed our golden hour. Meagan: Yeah, and you were let alone. Grace: Yeah, I was alone. Meagan: In a very scary time. Grace: Yes. The nurse wasn't really talking to me. She was charting and stuff which I get that you've got to chart but I felt very alone in this recovery room. All that being said, everything did go okay. It still did not feel great that I had to have a C-section instead of my planned birth. I had my birth plan and everything. The next morning, the doctor did come in and he told me that for my next baby, I would have to have a C-section. He was like, “You can do all of the research that you want and the statistics are small, but I still would not let you have a trial of labor. You would be an automatic C-section.” Meagan: Did he actually say, “The statistics say this but for you, no.” Grace: No, it wasn't just me. That's how he practiced. Meagan: He just doesn't support VBAC. Grace: Yes and he told me that a friend's wife tried to VBAC and had some kind of complications. I don't know how it ended so it also sounded like it was a personal thing. He didn't do them for personal beliefs. Meagan: Yes. Grace: He left the room and that's when I found your page. I started searching VBACs and how I could have one. I was so discouraged not being able to deliver vaginally. I was like, I've got to at least inform myself and see if I can find a way to do it and how to go about it. Knowledge is power so I wanted to know as much as I could going into it. I had my daughter. You're busy with a baby so I didn't do too much research in between. I just saw that it is ideal to wait 9 months before you get pregnant. I did find out I was pregnant at about 13 months postpartum and this was actually two days after I got offered a job as a labor and delivery nurse so I had a little bit of excitement all at once. 13 months postpartum, and the whole time my husband after he saw my recovery was like, “Okay. I will do whatever I can to help you have a VBAC,” because he knew it was very hard on me. I found a doctor. I just was like, I'll just see doctors and feel them out. My first doctor I saw was super VBAC-supportive. He said that they do them all the time. I'm a great candidate so I was like, Okay. I'll stick with these guys.My husband did a bunch of research too. He was looking up why people get induced and why you may or may not want to get induced to avoid a C-section and all of these things. He was my biggest cheerleader and came to appointments with me and was making sure our provider was as supportive as we needed him to be to try and make this happen. I also became obsessive. I was listening to the podcast all of the time on my way to work. If work was slow, I'd throw in an AirPod and do laps around the unit to be moving and hear the podcast. I was listening to it in the shower all the time and I found it really helpful just hearing other women's stories. This pregnancy went by pretty complication-free. I did have some bleeding in the beginning which was just a subchorionic hematoma and they weren't concerned about it. I actually didn't tell people at work that I was going to VBAC because our hospital doesn't allow for VBACs because we don't have in-house anesthesia or OBs. I didn't tell them and I didn't want them to know I was trying. They would even ask me, “Oh, are you scheduling your C-section?” I'm just like, “Oh, I haven't scheduled it yet.” I just kept working. At 37 weeks, I started anything I read online that could make labor happen. I was doing it. I was having the raspberry leaf tea, pineapples, the dates, walking, evening primrose oil. I was doing everything you could do to get my cervix ready to have a baby. At 39 weeks, we went to an appointment. I did start losing my mucus plug which made me very excited that something was happening on its own. At this appointment, I had a different provider. This practice had multiple doctors that could potentially be on when you deliver so you are supposed to see them all. I saw a different provider this time. He checked me. I was just a fingertip. They were going to maybe do a membrane sweep at this appointment, but he was unable to and then he mentioned, “Okay, if you get to 41 weeks, we'll talk about scheduling your induction.” I was like, “Whoa. I thought we weren't doing all that.” They seemed VBAC-supportive during the whole pregnancy and at the end flipped the switch and I felt like I was like, Oh no, I'm stuck. I've been seeing them the whole time. Now he's going to try and push an induction on me. I left that appointment feeling worried. After that, my husband was like, “You should just chill out. Stop obsessing over all the things.” I had a checklist that said, “Eat your dates. Eat your pineapple. Go for a walk.” It was all of the things and it was causing me more stress than actually letting my body do anything on its own. I stopped. I even stopped listening to the podcast. I was just like, Okay. Whatever happens happens. I went on maternity leave too so that no one on work would ask me. I just took my leave early. Then on my due date, I went in. I was dilated to a 1 which was incredible news for me and 50% effaced. I was like, Wow. After all that Cervadil, nothing happened and this time, something is actually happening. He was able to do a sweep at this appointment. We did an NST too. He just said, “It's protocol. Once you hit your due date, they do NSTs.” I felt great. I contracted and cramped all night. I was like, Maybe it's happening, but this was just the start of some prodromal labor that went on and off for a while. I went into an appointment on Monday after that Friday and he said, As long as I agree to just keep coming in for NSTs, he said that he would let me go as long as I need to. They weren't worried about induction. It was a healthy pregnancy. They weren't worried about his size or anything like that. He did another sweep that Monday. That also caused me to cramp and contract. I was hand expressing as well to try and get my milk supply to come in. I was regularly contracting. I shouldn't say regularly but it was happening and so I thought that at my next appointment, I'm going to be really dilated because this is all happening. Everything is really happening now. I went into my next appointment. This was a different provider again, a woman. She checked me and I was a 2 which was exciting as well. She said that she wasn't able to do a sweep because the other doctor already did it and her fingers weren't long enough so it wouldn't be effective. Meagan: What? Grace: I was like, “Okay, whatever you say.” Then she sat down and asked, “If you do have to have a C-section, what is your mental state going to be because it is a possibility?” I knew it was but at this point in my pregnancy, I just didn't want to hear the words “C-section”. I told her I would probably be okay. My eyes are wide open. I know it's a possibility but I would feel pretty discouraged that I wasn't able to have a VBAC. She told me if I did have a VBAC, I wouldn't be able to pick up my daughter for at least two weeks so that really also freaked me out. Meagan: If you did have a VBAC? Grace: Oh no, I'm sorry. If I had the C-section, I would have to wait at least two weeks to pick her up. Meagan: Okay. Like a weight restriction. Grace: I'm sorry, yeah. She was like, “You don't want to pop your incision,” which makes sense but I'm like, “I'm already bringing a new brother into her life and now I'm not going to pick her up.” That really scared me so I wanted to have my VBAC. So after this appointment, I was 41 weeks when I went to this appointment. That night, I had been contracting starting around 8:00 PM pretty regularly but they were spaced apart 5-7 minutes and then around midnight, the contractions became 3-4 minutes apart. They told me I could go to the hospital when they were 5, but I was worried that it would slow down my labor so I waited a little bit longer. I went in and out of the shower. I took a moment to hold my daughter and lay with her for a little bit thinking, Okay, we're going to bring a baby home soon. It's happening.We called my in-laws around 4:00 in the morning to come over because they were regularly 3-4 minutes apart for quite a few hours. They came over at 5:00. We got to the hospital at about 6:00 and it did happen. My labor slowed down. The contractions went to 6 minutes apart. When I got there, I was only 2 centimeters which I was in the office in the morning so I was like, How is this possible? I just contracted for all these hours and nothing happened? I did efface a little bit more. I was 70%. They said, “We're just going to watch you for a little bit. We're not going to send you home.” Of course, it started snowing when it had been 70 degrees all week. That's the midwest. They said, “We'll just wait. We'll watch you. Hang out here. It's snowing. We'll see what happens.” I was just sitting on the yoga ball already pretty exhausted because I had been up all night. Then at 9:00 AM, the doctor came in and she was like, “Okay, I'm going to break your water.” The nurse was like, “Hold on, we don't have an IV. We were just watching her. Let's get some other things in place before you break the water.” Before she did break the water, I was very hesitant about them doing that because I wanted it to happen naturally. I didn't want them to force anything and then be put on a timer because at our hospital, if your water is broken for x amount of hours, then it becomes, “Okay, we've got to get this baby out.” I didn't want that. She said, “No.” They wouldn't be worried. They might start worrying if I developed symptoms of infection but that still wouldn't necessarily mean I would have to have a C-section. They would just treat the infection. I did let her break the water and they checked me six hours later. Again, I didn't make any change but the contractions had been more intense for me so I ended up getting the epidural about a half hour after that at 3:30. Once I got the epidural, I was feeling good. They told me they wanted to start Pitocin. I was hesitant about that as well because it does increase your risk of uterine rupture not that the percent is that high, but I wanted to avoid it if I could but they told me I would be on a different protocol because I'm a TOLAC patient so they would go low and slow. They would start at a 1 and keep it slow. Anytime they did go over 2 though, baby didn't like it. His heart rate would drop a little bit so they did end up turning it on and off all day but the contractions still stayed pretty spaced apart. Around 10:00, they did check me and I was a 4. His head was low. I was having some bloody show. They shut off the Pitocin because the contractions were every minute apart. Meagan: Oh, that's a little close. Grace: Yeah. I don't know. I couldn't tell because I had an epidural but they also placed the IUPC and they did an amnioinfusion which we don't really do much at our hospital so I was pretty unfamiliar with it and she explained that they wanted to just replace my fluid because I had been ruptured for a while and baby needs some fluid to come down and help me dilate so they did that. I feel like I had all of these wires going everywhere. After a little bit, I did end up getting a fever. They gave me some IV antibiotics so with all of these things happening at my hospital, I would have been a C-section for sure. I could tell they were very VBAC-supportive. They came in and repositioned me so frequently because his heart rate would drop. The nurse was in there all night. I was like, This poor nurse is in here every 5 minutes repositioning me or doing something for me. Around 1:00 in the morning, I felt such intense pressure. My epidural had worked really well, but I was feel all that pressure of his head. She didn't want to check me because she said, “We don't want to be in there too much because,” Meagan: You already had a fever, yeah. Grace: They waited, but this pain and pressure was pretty intense for me. I was crying through the contractions. It felt like my body was pushing for me. I was like, “Can you please check me? I know that you don't want to but I'm feeling like something is happening.” I ended up throwing up which could also be baby is getting ready to come out. They did check me at 6:00 in the morning. I was 10 centimeters. She called the doctor to let her know and said– this was also the doctor who I had my last appointment with who didn't sound super on board with me having a VBAC. Meagan: The short-finger one? Grace: Yeah, little fingers. Meagan: Little fingers. Grace: I was like, I really hope she's not on. They were like, “She's on for 24 hours.” I was like, “Okay.” She was the one. She was like, “Let her do a practice push then I'll be in there soon.At this point, I had been in so much pain from the pressure all night that I was like, “I don't even think I can push him out.” I'm a first-time mom basically because it's my first vaginal birth and I could be pushing for 2-3 hours. I was like, “I don't know if I have it in me.” I said that to my husband. I was like, “I don't know if I can push.” He was like, “Don't be discouraged. If you have to have a C-section, you have to have a C-section.” That lit a fire in me. I was like, “No. I did not just go through 31 hours of labor to call it quits. I'm going to at least try to push and see what happens.” I do one practice push and the little guy's heart rate drops and doesn't recover for 6 minutes. Everyone is rushing in– the doctor, the hospitalist doctor, all of the nurses. They were like, “Don't be discouraged. You did everything you could but we're probably going to have to have a C-section.” The doctor goes, “I think your uterus is rupturing.” I'm like, “Okay, that's scary. Don't tell me that.” I'm like, “What is even making you think that?” She's making a little note in the computer. They are putting in all the orders for me to go into the OR. She said, “But if baby's heart rate recovers in the OR, we'll let you push in the OR but we want everyone around to make sure if we do need to have a C-section, we have the whole staff ready to go.” They wheeled me in, were giving me meds in the hallway while I'm on the way in there. The nurses were super comforting though. One of the nurses told me that she tried to TOLAC with her second and ended up having a C-section and that it's nothing to be ashamed of which it's not. I just really wanted to do it. I felt like up until that point, I did everything I could. They wheeled me into the OR and the anesthesiologist said he partially blocked me. He gave me ⅓ of the dose that they would give for a C-section but I felt very numb. I could not feel the contractions. I couldn't feel my legs, nothing. They hooked me up to the monitor and his heart rate recovered miraculously. He was in the 150's. They said they wanted me to push. I also had already thrown in the white flag mentally and said, “I don't know if I can push. I'm scared now.” I froze up. I was like, “I don't want to have a C-section. I don't want to push. I'm just in this limbo right now of I don't know how we're going to get this baby out.” They told me that they wanted to use a vacuum. Initially, I was like, “I don't really want you to use a vacuum,” but the hospitalist said that it would  help us get baby out faster when I'm pushing. I did finally consent to them using the vacuum. So we're in there. They nurses had to tell me when I was contracting because I couldn't tell. They had this audio of my monitor on but they couldn't see the strip for some reason so they were just palpating my belly to tell when I was contracting. They would say, “Okay, push now.” With four contractions and the help of the vacuum, I did push and got baby out successfully. Meagan: Just four? Grace: Just four. I know I kind of cheated with the vacuum. Meagan: That's pretty dang fast though. Grace: 10 minutes of pushing and he came out with copious amounts of the fluid that they had replaced. I had said I wanted him to be skin-to-skin if I could. He came out good so they put him on my chest. They actually let me reach down and feel his head while I was pushing and that really motivated me to get him out. The nurses were so helpful and so was the doctor. I don't think I could have pushed him out as good as I did if they weren't literally rallying around me like, “You've got this. You're doing great pushes. He's almost there.” I got him out and I got to hold him then they said, “Let's just take him to the warmer for a little bit. He swallowed some fluid.” They were reassuring me the whole time then they ended up letting him come back to me. I got to wheel back to the room with him with me which was so exciting for me. I got to breastfeed right away and we went to our postpartum room as a family. I just remember that it was such an emotional rollercoaster at the end. I prepped so much for a VBAC. Okay, just accept the fact that you're having a C-section. Just kidding, you're getting your VBAC. I felt like there were so many junctions where it could have been like, “Okay, we're just giving you a C-section.” We ended up getting lucky and having the baby. I feel like I could not have done it without the nurses and the doctor and all of the information I learned from this podcast so seriously, thank you guys so much for what you do because you make such a big difference in people's lives. That night, I got to pick up my daughter and lift her up and show her her new brother in the hospital. I was so happy. A month out, I'm able to move. I don't feel like myself again, but closer than I did when I had my C-section. This all went so great and I'm so glad I got to do it. Meagan: I am so glad too. I am so grateful to you for being here and sharing your story with us. It's always fun to hear that we were in people's ears along the way. Man, it's what we were talking about in the beginning with the odds stacked against you with this happening and it could also go to this or the baby's heart rate drops and then they do this and then this happens. There are all of the things that could go wrong, but a lot of the way, it seemed like you were making the choices that felt best for you even when it might have been, “Hey, we're going to come break your water,” and it might not have been exactly what you want but you ultimately felt good about it. So let's talk about that. When someone comes in or if VBAC isn't supported in this hospital and maybe that's your only hospital, that's a really hard one. In your hospital you work in now, you said, “If that were my hospital, I would have gone in for a C-section and they don't support it,” so what do people do in your area when your hospital doesn't support it?Grace: They definitely don't support it. They would just automatically schedule you for a repeat Cesarean and if we did get a patient in who was in labor, we would probably transfer them or we would have to make sure that the OB who was on is close enough to get there. In my short amount of time that I've been there so far, I did see one VBAC. They made an exception for her. The OB stayed overnight. Meagan: Wow. Grace: So did the anesthesiologist. She ended up VBACing and having a big baby and everything. I feel like the odds were kind of stacked against her too but other than that, they don't try to do it and since they don't do it, because we don't have the resources, a lot of the staff there just doesn't believe in VBACs and they have a lot of– like I said, I didn't tell anybody I was VBACing but I would hear them talk about VBACs and I'm like, I can't tell you guys that I'm doing this until I succeed at it then I can be like it is possible. Meagan: What did they say?Grace: They were really glad that I got it how I wanted it. They did know that it was a rough recovery for me and I told them the C-section was really hard on me and our family so they were like, “I'm glad you got to do what you wanted.” Meagan: Yeah. Well, when the odds are stacked against you, and the odds are looking different for everybody. Sometimes it's advanced maternal age, big baby measuring, over our due date, special scar, VBAC after multiple Cesareans– I mean, there are all of the things that can be stacked against us, but when you are in an area that isn't supportive, that's good to know that they would even transfer them and be like, “Actually, we're going to transfer you to this hospital.” You can transfer hospitals. Of course, you can decide to explore home birth. You can try to find a different provider within that hospital because if that hospital is supportive but that provider isn't supportive, there are things you can do. I'm going to have a link for a whole bunch of different blogs on ways to find supportive providers, what to do, and also how to decide if a VBAC or a C-section is right for you because I think that can be hard when you find a location that is not supportive. It sometimes is easier to just make the other decision and go along with it. Okay, so labor and delivery nurse. You are relatively new. Grace: Yes. Meagan: But how has it been? How do you feel like birth is in your location?Grace: I feel like it's good. They do a lot of inductions there. A lot of the patients, they'll say, “Let's induce you around 39 weeks.” Initially, my first over a month of orientation, I didn't see a vaginal birth. I only saw C-sections. It was very common. I don't know if I was unlucky. I don't know. Maybe it was the shift I worked because I worked 3:00 in the morning to 3:00 PM. I'm not sure. I was like, “I'd really like to see a vaginal birth because I–”Meagan: Am hoping for one. Grace: Exactly. I was pregnant then and I didn't tell anybody but it was nice working while I was pregnant and being able to actually learn a lot more while I'm working about labor. I could watch my contraction strip and know what it means. It helped me have more knowledge going into my own situation and then I felt like I was pregnant forever so at the end of my pregnancy, I'm like, They were due after me and they had their baby. Everyone was over there having their babies and I was still pregnant. I was like, I'm just going to grow him as long as I can and when he's ready, he will come out. Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that you've been able to learn. I think that's one of my favorite things too just being a doula. Obviously, I'm not there actually charting those strips or anything like that but it's been really fun to learn that strip better because we can tell baby's position sometimes based on those charts. We've got coupling contractions sometimes and we know that baby is in a wonky position. Huge congrats to you. Grace: Thank you. Meagan: If you decide to go back to the labor and delivery route, I wish you all of the luck and I'm sure that you'll be cheering people on and supporting and helping them along the way. Grace: Yes and now I can help them better because I went through a C-section and a vaginal and now I can kind of relate to all of the patients in what they might need. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

With her first birth, Amy hired a doula and planned to birth at a birth center. During labor, her baby kept having late heart decels which led to transferring to the hospital. At the hospital, Amy stalled at 9.5 centimeters. Baby was having a hard time descending and continued having decels. Amy chose to have a Cesarean and while she was at peace with the experience, she knew she wanted another chance at a vaginal birth. Amy proactively prepared for her VBAC by educating herself and working with her provider to find common ground. Her labor progressed well, Amy coped beautifully, and was able to push out her 10-pound baby! Amy talks about how recovering from birth can be difficult no matter what type of birth you have. Our VBAC Link Doula, Desiree, joins as Meagan's co-host and touches on the importance of breathwork. As a licensed therapist, Amy also talks about how she uses breathwork with her own clients. “Practice it before you are in labor because then it's easier to do while you're in labor.”Desiree's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Women of Strength. It is an amazing day to listen to another VBAC story. We have our friend, Amy, from Massachusetts coming your way sharing her VBAC story with you. Then we have one of our VBAC Link doulas, Desiree, with us as well. Welcome, ladies. Desiree: Hi.Amy: Thank you. Meagan: Hello. Thank you so much for being with me today. We do have that Review of the Week so I'm going to actually turn the time over to Desiree and read that. Desiree: Yeah, so the Review of the Week this week is provided by Ashley on the VBAC Doula course which I am very familiar with. I am so excited to read this one. Ashley says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them. Your course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC. I cannot praise you two enough for the fear-release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” Meagan: Oh, that's amazing. That just gave me the chills. I love that. Fear release is so important. Women of Strength, if you are listening, we have that in our course because we truly believe in it. I think fear release in anything in life. We could just be scared to go in and take a test and fear release of that. But when it comes to birth specifically, I don't know if both of you would agree, but we've got to do some fear releases and let go and also process the past, right? Desiree: Absolutely. Yes. I would say it's good for everybody going into birth, but definitely, if you're a VBAC or going for a TOLAC because you take your previous birth experiences into the room with you and if you haven't done the work, then you are just setting yourself up for roadblocks. Meagan: It's so true. I will admit that I did fear releases and I did lots of processing and I still had little bits of bouts of roadblocks in my VBA2C birth. That was really hard, but I was so grateful for the knowledge of how to do that fear release and work through it in those moments in my labor and because I had already done so much beforehand, the little roadblocks that were there even though they were roadblocks, I was able to get through them so much faster and more efficiently. Okay, Ms. Amy. Thank you so much for joining us. Amy: Sure. Meagan: Yes. We would love to turn the time over to you. Amy: Okay. So I actually gave birth to my two kids and then I gave birth in two different states. My C-section story was from when I lived in Massachusetts then I moved back to Minnesota and had my son which was my VBAC and now we are back in Massachusetts. Yeah, so with my daughter, I hired a doula. I gave birth and wanted to give birth at a birthing center that was outside of the hospital but it was connected to the hospital system but it was run by midwives and more holistic, more of what I was aiming for. Just like with your first births, you have all of the plans and I think partly that is some anxiety mitigation of if I feel like I have a plan then maybe I know what to expect. I worked with a really amazing doula. We didn't take a birthing class through the hospital. She did that education and I was feeling relatively prepared as much as you can with a first birth. I had a week's worth of prodromal labor. I always am very cautious. I always call it prodromal labor because I feel like the term false labor is so demoralizing when you're in it like this isn't real labor and I'm like, No, it is. It just isn't progressing the way I want it to. Meagan: Well, but it's still your body working. I think that's what a lot of the time we forget. It's not progressing the way we want but our body is still very much working and making progress behind the scenes whether or not a number of centimeters or a number of effacement is reflecting. We are still doing work and making progress. Amy: Yes, exactly. But my prodromal labor liked to happen only at night so I was going off of probably three or four nights of really not sleeping through the night. Again, as a first-time mom, I didn't really know. I was up with adrenaline because I didn't really know 100% what I was experiencing. I did stop going to work. I was going to work up until labor and then I just stopped going to work the last couple of days because I was like, I'm not sleeping. I'm stressed and tired.I went into labor the night before my daughter's due date and felt the contractions getting a little bit stronger around 10:30. I went to bed. I woke up around 12:30 and told my husband, “Okay, I think this is really actually happening now.” We labored through the night. At 4:00 AM, I called my doula. We met up at the birth center. I was already 6 centimeters. I was obviously so thrilled about that. I was like, “We're going to have this baby by mid-morning. It's going to be great.” Then they started checking her heartbeat. From the beginning, she was having a lot of decels and they kept monitoring it, monitoring it, and monitoring it for 20 minutes which again, wasn't really the plan that I was going to be sitting in bed monitoring her heart rate the whole time. I wanted to be up and moving around but they just couldn't get her heart rate to stabilize at that point so they moved me over to the hospital then. It's a birth center but they are across the street from the hospital so they literally put me into a wheelchair and rolled me across the road. That's when all of the interventions started. From there, I progressed I think to about 8 centimeters but she was having those decels off and on the whole time. Then I think we ended up getting an epidural. I wasn't planning to but I got an epidural about that time. I don't know what time of day this was, maybe noon just because it had been a while now. I was tired and they were like, “Maybe if you rest a little bit, we can get her into a better position or something.” Really, what ended up happening was because of her decels, they wanted me to be on continuous monitoring which made it so I couldn't move around as much because the nurse didn't know how to apply the wireless ones. That happened so it was just one thing after another and my doula was great. She was really supportive. We did try a few different positions, but it was like every time I got in a position that felt good, they were like, “Oh no, we lost her heartbeat. We have to have you move again.” I think the process was frustrating. I did get the epidural. I got all the way to 9.5 centimeters dilated and then we just sort of stalled. And then of course probably around 5:00, this had been close to 20 hours of labor and they were like, “Yeah, I don't know. We could try a few more positions but I think this is just going to keep happening and now we are worried that she's going to get distressed.” So it wasn't really an emergency C-section at all. They were like, “Here's what we think. We'll give you a few minutes to talk about it with your husband and doula and see what you guys think.” It was definitely hard. I was discouraged and frustrated by that but at that point, I just wanted her out. Now that I've read, and when I was listening to The VBAC Link and listening to so many other stories where we probably could have given it more time and all of these other things, they did a C-section and they actually found that her umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck twice. She never really descended into the birth canal fully. She never really engaged in my pelvis. Part of me wonders if it was partly that where she had that umbilical cord and that was going to be tough for her through the birth canal. I don't really know. But she was healthy and everything was good. I honestly didn't feel super traumatized by that experience but obviously I wish it had gone a different way. That was my first birth and then about two years later, well, my daughter was 2.5 when I got pregnant with my son. I was the middle of the pandemic. It was 2020. Is that when I got pregnant? Yeah. It was the fall of 2020. I definitely started looking into VBAC and found your podcast and was like, I would like to really try for a vaginal birth this time around. I think what was challenging about that and as you are talking about going in with fear is that I felt like even though it was my second baby, I felt like I was going through the process like a first birth because I never pushed. I never got to that point with my daughter so I felt like I had that anxiety almost like I was going into my first birth again. That was hard for me, I think, mentally. But we had moved to Minnesota at that point so unfortunately, I didn't get to use the same doula that I had before. I found another doula and I think she had a lot of knowledge and I think she did a good job but I think overall, we just didn't connect as well emotionally. Honestly, I realized that was almost more important to me. Obviously, knowledgeable and certified is good but not feeling like we were always connected, I struggled with that at times. Meagan: Sorry, not to interrupt you but I was just going to say that can impact the way you are feeling and walking into any experience so that connection is really, really key. Amy: Yes. Yeah. I'm a therapist. That's my job and so obviously, I say that to my clients all the time about therapy too. I never got to the point where I was like, Oh, maybe I should look for somebody else, but I think looking back, sometimes I wish I had. But during the labor and stuff, I think she was great. Yeah. It was different than my first time. So yeah, I did a lot of research about Spinning Babies. My doula helped me with some of those exercises. It was stuff I was aware of before, but I didn't look into it as much. Then one of the things I was curious around because when I had my C-section, my OB was like, “Oh, well you have a flat pelvis so it is going to be hard for you to ever have a baby vaginally” is what she said to me. My doula was like, “Well, you know. Around pelvis shapes and stuff like that, that's a very gray area. Generally speaking, we don't subscribe to that because your pelvis is moving and it isn't a shape.” But I was curious about that so I looked into that through Spinning Babies and some of those other resources and about how babies engage in your pelvis and how does baby engage to progress labor.Meagan: Yeah, different stages. The baby can be in sometimes different– I mean, we all have different shapes of pelvises so the baby has to come in different positions and sometimes that even means posterior so sometimes we do all the things to avoid posterior babies, and then our babies still go in posterior but that's actually because of the way our pelvis is shaped or the way it was that day that our babies needed to get into the pelvis in that position. Sometimes they can kind of hang up until we find those positions that can help them navigate down. Amy: Yes. I mentioned that to my doula and we both did some research on it because I think that was part of the issue with my daughter. There wasn't a consistent engagement. Even though my labor progressed for the most part, I was sort of wondering about that. I also was– I can't remember when this exactly happened but I think around 32 weeks, I started measuring big. Of course, my OB who I would say was VBAC tolerant. I wouldn't say she was VBAC-supportive. I did like her quite a bit but she was like, “Okay, your baby is measuring big and because of your history–” she goes through the whole, “here's your percentage of having a successful VBAC.” I'm 5'9”. I'm larger. I'm not a petite person so even if I had been, I don't subscribe to that because of listening to VBAC podcasts and stuff, your body can birth a large baby, but also, I wasn't as worried about it because I know that sometimes those projections are completely off and so it was part of that process of learning to respectfully disagree with a medical professional who I did have respect for and did feel like they had some expertise but to say that we don't have to agree on everything for me to work with you. That was a huge turning point for me just in my life in general working with medical professionals of, I don't have to completely throw everything you say out the window but I also don't have to agree with everything that you say and we can respectfully disagree on that issue. So I was like, “Respectfully, I'm not going to schedule a C-section at that point.” She didn't pressure me at all. She was like, “I understand. Let's move forward with the plan.” That's what we did. I think that was empowering. As we moved closer to my due date, he was big. I was not sure at the time, but I was like, I'm going to go into labor early. That was a mental block for me. Then as it gets closer and closer and closer to my due date, I'm going out of my mind just losing patience. I'm not a good, patient-waiting person as it is so I'm having prodromal labor for the whole week before my due date and at that point, I actually did schedule a C-section for the following week because I needed mentally an out-date. That was what it was in my mind of, Okay. If this goes on for another week, I have an out, even though that's not what I wanted. I think honestly mentally, it took a weight off my shoulders which is counterintuitive to what you would think when everything in me was working toward this VBAC then I was like, No. A couple of days before he was born, I needed that second date in my mind somewhere. Meagan: Well– oh, sorry. Go ahead, Desiree. Desiree: I was going to say I think it actually makes a lot of sense. You say it's counterintuitive, but you're right. We spend so much time and energy thinking about achieving our VBACs and having our babies. Sometimes having– well, even if I don't do all the things, I can still have my baby and then relaxation happens. That's when we see labor starting to take off for a lot of people. Amy: Yep. Yeah, I definitely think that was a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, and I think it was helpful.So yeah, I'm trying to think of how this went. Yeah, so we were doing some Spinning Babies things. We did some side-lying releases all throughout the pregnancy and then on June 4th which was actually my son's due date, having prodromal labor all week and then I felt like there was a little bit more intensity in the contractions I was having that morning so I sent my daughter off to her grandparents' and was like, Okay. I'm just going to focus today. I'm going to focus on getting my body in gear. It wasn't that I was in this mindset of, I'm going to make myself go into labor today, it was just this intuition around I needed to be able to focus on what was going on. We had that plan that my daughter would go stay with her grandparents while I go into labor and I thought that maybe she was just going to go earlier than I thought she would because I wasn't in any kind of active labor. Then I had my doula come over at 10:00 AM and we did more different exercises. I can't remember all of the ones we did because what would happen was that I would have contractions 15 minutes apart, 15 minutes apart and then they would just stop and that would be the end of it and then the next day, the same thing. Or they would be 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 20 minutes– nothing consistent so what we found was if I laid on my left side in the flying cowgirl position, then my contractions were more intense and more consistent. It was again this think of, in my mind I was like, While I'm in active labor, I'm going to be walking around and trying all of these different positions and all of this different stuff, and what I ended up doing is honestly just laying in bed and watching TV in that position almost all day. So again, it was this thing of that's not what I've heard is helpful or whatever but I just think that was where he needed to be to engage in my pelvis at that stage. Then every hour or so I'd get up. I'd do curb walking. I would just get out, walk around, and be active but it was way more laying down than I ever planned to do. You hear that's not how you get your body engaged in labor, but that was what worked for me so that was an interesting, Release what you think is going to work for you and do what your body is telling you is working for you. But it was actually kind of nice. It was relaxing. My daughter wasn't there. It was the summer. We had the air conditioning on in that room. My husband brings me a bubble tea or whatever and I was like, This is actually not so bad. This is okay. Contractions were probably 15, 10 minutes apart that whole day then in the evening is when it ramped up. I turned toward active labor and we called my doula again at 8:00 PM and the contractions were very intense. I was leaning on an exercise ball. My husband was trying to do some counterpressure to get me through it and then she did– and again, this is something where my doula and I were not always on the same page, but I was explaining to her my contractions. “They are about a minute and half long. They were maybe 7-8 minutes apart,” and the first thing she said was, “Oh, well that contraction isn't long enough to progress you at all,” or something like that. She said something about my labor process and it was so discouraging because I felt like I had taken so long to get to that point that when she said that, I was like, Oh, so all of this was for nothing. I know that's not what she meant but I remember just feeling very discouraged by that comment. So that was tough. Then she did the abdominal lift and tuck. I do feel like that helped get my son into my pelvis and more engaged in my pelvis because from that point, contractions were two minutes apart. They were very intense. I ended up signaling. I was like, “I'm ready to go to the hospital.” We agreed to labor at home as long as possible, but I was like, “I think this is the time.” Again, my doula was like, “I think we should wait longer.” My contractions were two minutes apart at that point and I was like, “I don't think we should. I want to go.” I'm glad we did actually because that ended up being the right time. But I remember rolling into the hospital at 12:01 AM and I remember my husband saying, “Well, I guess we're not going to be having the baby on his due date,” because my daughter was born on her due date. I was in active labor on my son's due date and then we just missed it. I remember being like, “That's true. We're not going to make it but that's okay.” So yeah, we walk into the hospital and go through triage. My water breaks while we are in triage and of course, they bring out their little testing stick and they're like, “We're going to make sure this is actually your water breaking.” I was like, “Okay, but I've never wet myself during a pregnancy. This is what it is.” Then we go back in the labor and delivery room and the doctor who is on call is not my doctor. I find out later that this is the most anxious, not-nice-to-work-with OB in that practice. So that was tough. I could tell from the beginning she was just very brusk. She didn't have a great bedside manner at all. She was like, “I see that he's measuring big so we're going to make sure that–” she was really worried about shoulder dystocia. I was very glad again that I had read up on that and that I was not concerned about that. So she was like– they had big birthing tubs there but they don't let you birth in them. They just let you labor in them. I was in there and feeling like I wanted to push for a while and I remember I went to the bathroom and she comes in the room and she's like, “Well, let's get you on the table.” I'm like, “I'm just going to the bathroom.” I don't know if she thought that I was going to try to have the baby without her or something, I don't know. Her whole vibe was very anxious. That was hard. That was definitely discouraging. I think at that point, I actually had asked for an epidural. Both times, I asked for an epidural at transition and then once I'm through transition, I'm fine. They didn't come in time and they checked me and I was already at 10 centimeters so they were like, “Okay, it's time to push. We don't have time for the epidural.” I'm like, “Okay, this is what it is.” That was okay and then I pushed for about an hour on my back which was again, not my choice but the OB was like, “No, I need to be able to see what's going on. I don't want you in any other position,” because again, she was so worried about shoulder dystocia and him being big. Halfway through pushing, she was like, “Okay, you can try on all fours.” But at that point, I was so exhausted that I couldn't even imagine myself getting on all fours. I was like, “That ship has sailed.” That was tough because I had planned the whole time to try to push at least for a little while on all fours because again, knowing about big babies and how that can be a really good position for that, but I just didn't feel like I could advocate for myself. I don't know. In both of my births, when I get in labor, I go very inward. I think having a doula was great, but both times I don't think my doula was super outwardly advocating. But again, maybe they were looking for a signal from me and I was just in my own world. It was okay though. I pushed for an hour. He came out just fine. It was that euphoric moment of, Oh my gosh. That just happened. That was crazy. Having only pushed for an hour felt great with my first vaginal birth. They took him out and they weighed him and he was 10 pounds, 4 ounces. Meagan: Yeah!Amy: Yes. It was so funny because the nurses were trying to guess. They were like, “9 pounds. He's big.” Yes. I felt great and actually, it was funny. The next morning, my OB came in. She was on then. She comes in and she goes, “Well, he was big.” I was like, “And I did get him out, so we were both right.” We were able to laugh about that. Meagan: I love that you said that. Like, “Hey, I was right too.” Amy: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and I felt like it was a good ending. I felt like she was like, “Yep, you're right. You did.” I did tear. I had two second-degree tears which again was maybe not as bad as I expected with a baby that size, but it was no fun. I think that's the other thing that I talk about often is either way, with a C-section or with that kind of a birth, I felt like it took me about two weeks to be able to feel like I could even walk normally. I think the difference with the vaginal birth is that I do feel like I made improvements every day where I gradually got better whereas with the C-section, it was really hard for two full weeks and then it was like then I felt better. It was a different recovery but I would say– and I think other people have talked about this here before but either way, it can be a tough recovery. Meagan: For sure. For sure. Amy: It's hard because my sister had two vaginal births and her second one, she was up and walking. We walked a mile when she was two weeks postpartum and I'm like, gosh. I couldn't even walk down the block at two weeks postpartum after my son. I think obviously not to compare yourself one or the other but I had a big baby and there was some trauma down there and that takes time as well. But it was a great feeling and I think that obviously, it ended up really good. Yeah. That's my story. Meagan: I love it. Thank you for sharing it and congratulations. I think that it's so hard to sometimes have providers who will meet you in the middle. It sounds like you both met in the middle along the way and I think in a perfect world, I just wish that this would happen where providers would meet us a little bit more but there are so many providers who won't even come in. We talk about it all the time with finding the right provider and if the provider is not right for you and if they are not willing to budge at all and meet you in the middle or be a part of the conversations where you were saying things and she was like, “You know what? Okay. Okay. Let's go back to the original plan then.” She said her piece. She said her suggestions. You were like, “No. I don't feel comfortable with this. This is not what I want,” and she was willing to be like, “Okay. Okay. All right. Let's go back to that original plan.” Look what would have happened if you weren't able to advocate and stand up for yourself and be like, “Actually–”, it could have been a very different outcome. Amy: Yes. Yes. For sure. Meagan: Desiree, do you have anything to share on that just as a birth worker or anything to share as far as tips go when we've got situations like that where maybe it seems like it could get really combative but it doesn't have to be? Desiree: Yeah. I mean, I just want to commend you, Amy, for being able to voice your opinion in that way because I think that's really hard for a lot of us to stand up in spaces with doctors who we think are in a position of authority. Yes, they have experience, but no one lives in your body. No one has the lived experience of your body except you. That makes you an equal expert in what's happening. I think it's great that providers bring advice and recommendations and they have a plan for what they want to see, but I think a truly great provider does meet you at least halfway. Ideally, you're right Meagan, they're coming a little bit more than halfway, but I mean, it's nice to hear that your provider was willing to listen to you and follow your plan and probably have hers in her back pocket as the fallback. But that's just great that you were able to advocate for yourself in that way. It doesn't always have to be combative, right? It can be as simple as, “Thank you for your advice. I appreciate your expertise. This is what I'd like to try and if it doesn't work, then we can try something else.” Amy: Yeah. I think that I was feeling anxious about that too and this big realization of, I do. I like her. I trust her as a doctor. I feel like we're on the same page, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything she says and it also doesn't mean I have to fire her and find a new provider. Again, there is a happy medium there. You're right. I was taught that doctors have this authority. They know. They go to years of schooling. Of course, they do. But also keeping in mind that their worldview and perspective might be very different and the lens that they are looking at this through is very different than mine and how do I keep this in mind that they have this medical perspective of what they've seen. They've seen the worst of the worst medical scenarios but also to keep in mind that there's this whole other worldview around that so that ws helpful for me. Meagan: Yeah. That was definitely something that stood out to me with your form. It was, “Disagreeing with a provider doesn't mean that you can't work with them.” You said it in your story too. That is so, so true. It doesn't mean we can't work with them and if it gets to a point where it's like, “Okay, there is no working with this,” and it is actually not working, then we can make a different choice. We can change things up, find a different provider, look at our VBAC Link provider list, and see if there is someone else. But if you can work with it and everything is feeling good and there are a couple of things but we are working together, that is so great. That is so great. Amy: Yeah. Meagan: Awesome. Well, I just wanted to let Desiree share a couple of tips. I love when we have our VBAC Link doulas come on because it's so fun to get different tips and different perspectives from other doulas around the world. Desiree is in California with Be_Earth_Mama. Is that right? Desiree: Yeah. My husband gives me a hard time about this all the time because I guess nobody gets it but it's Birth Mama. Meagan: Oh, I thought it was Be Earth Mama. Desiree: That's what he says. Meagan: That makes so much sense, so much sense. She is in California. Remind us exactly where in California because California is ginormous. Desiree: California is ginormous. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area so Northern California. Meagan: And you do birth and education. Desiree: I do birth and education primarily. Meagan: You do webinars and all the things, right? Desiree: I do webinars. I do online classes. I teach in-person classes. I'm getting ready to start a prenatal belly dance class that I think is going to be in-person for now but might go to virtual if there is an interest so all things birth preparation essentially. That's my niche. Meagan: Really, really cool. Awesome. I know there were a couple different topics that you were talking about and I was like, ooh. Breathing and active relaxing. Tell us all the things. Desiree: Yeah, it's one of my favorite topics and I feel like it's one that is on the list but it's low on the list because you think about breathing. Why do you need to practice breathing? You just naturally do it but if you've been in labor, you know that when that intensity starts to pick up, breathing is the first thing that goes out the window so having a strong breathing practice is the first step to staying really calm and grounded in labor. But even beyond that, I think having a practice is about the process and I think especially for me in my VBAC journey, it sounds like Amy was sort of like this where contractions start and they stop and they start and you are in this waiting game. Is your body going to do the thing or is it not going to do the thing? What's wrong? I feel like having the practice to fall back on gives you a way to stay grounded and centered in your body as you are waiting for labor. So it's two-fold. Keeping your body nice and relaxed while you're actually working through labor but giving yourself the time to be nourishing yourself in those last precious days and weeks leading up to labor I think is almost more important. Something that I work with all of my clients on is having an established breathing practice. It's not about the breathing technique because there are so many different ones out there. There is the up breathing. Up breathing is my favorite, breathe in for 4, exhale for 8. There is box breathing where you breathe in for 4, hold for 4, exhale for 4, and hold that for 4 counts. And for some people, it's just simply breathing as slow and controlled as possible. I think it's about finding something that feels natural and intuitive to you that you can lean into but it's about finding time and practicing really dropping into your body and dropping out of everything that's going on around you and playing into your senses with that. That's something I like to talk about to my clients is hacking your body. Building muscle memory because it's so hard to relax and stay calm when you're going through surges, the contractions are really building, and telling you to stay relaxed is not really going to work. Nobody wants to hear that. But if you have this practice and if you've built in sensory cues– I like recommending people to pick a birth scent either an essential oil or a candle or a lotion, picking a song or a sound, it could be even a meditation track and setting aside just 2-3 minutes every day to run through whatever your breathing technique is with your scent or your sound, maybe you have something to hold onto and practice just actively relaxing every single part of your body through the process of breathing when you get into labor, your body is going to remember that once you launch into this breathing routine and you put on your birth scent and you have your sound or your meditation track playing, your body is naturally going to relax because you've told it that that's what this time is for. I think it's a really special thing that we can do for ourselves to give ourselves this time and this practice where we are just nourishing the deepest parts of us. It's of course helpful for labor, but I think it's also a helpful practice to take into postpartum and into parenthood. I can say I've been doing this for 5 years. My oldest daughter is 5 years old and I still do it every day. I have to run through my breathing practices. Yeah. I think it's especially important for VBAC mamas to have this type of self-care routine. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. Like you said, it just becomes intuitive if we can practice this so much and instill this into our lives, it just becomes intuitive in that labor journey. There are going to be times where we were talking about roadblocks and stuff earlier, but those might come in and breathing in itself is something that can get us through those things. When you talked about the box breathing, I've done that before and I have this weird thing when I do box breathing. My body moves and I'm creating a square. Desiree: I do too. We don't have our cameras up, but I have to do the square. Meagan: Same. I do a square. I literally draw a square with my whole body and my torso and everything looks like a tree swaying in the wind and I can just feel it. I literally, the relaxation from head to toe just comes in. Like she said, there's not any specific way. You don't have to choose one way. You can use them all. You can use anything, just really, really, really having active relaxation practices before you go into labor is so good. And I think it can help along the way. Even when we have a provider who comes at us with, “Hey, we're going to meet you in the middle,” it still can be in our head. We can be like, Okay, she said this. I said this. This is what we're going to do. You've just got that whole conversation and it's just that you're breathing through that and you're processing that and you're going to apply it later on in labor. I don't know. I just love breathing so much. Desiree: I do too. I think it's the most important tool that we have that everybody has. It's the most powerful tool that's available to us. Meagan: We have to do it to live. Desiree: Mhmm. Meagan: We just have to. It's intuitive. We have to do it and we talk about intuition here and tuning into our intuition. If we are really, really tuning into our intuition, that breathing is part of that. Then our minds and our bodies can respond. Amy, did you ever do any breathing or anything like that? Have you ever heard about any of the things we are talking about? Amy: Yeah, yeah definitely. It's something I use in my therapy practice a lot. Meagan: I was wondering if you did. Amy: I work with college students primarily so this is a lot of time for some of them that they are facing some of this but I love what you were saying Desiree about practicing ahead of time because that's what I'll say. They'll be like, “Oh my gosh. I had a panic attack. I practiced your breathing and it didn't work.” I was like, “Did you practice that ahead of time?” When you're in crisis, it's hard to do it then. But if you've practiced it before and cued your body to that place, that's where it is so useful. Ironically, it was something that I didn't use a ton during my labor process as far as intentional breathing practices. I think I wish I had because I think that would have been useful, but my doula would coach me about some forms of taking deep breaths and sort of how you are breathing through some of the surges and stuff. But yeah, I love that. I love the practice it before you are in labor because then it's easier to do while you're in labor. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Such a powerful message. Okay, one more time, Desiree, tell everyone where they can find you. Desiree: Yeah. I'm on Instagram. You can find me at b_earth_mama pronounced “birth mama”. You can find me on my website which is www.b-earth-mama.com and that's primarily where I'm at. Meagan: Awesome. Well, go give her a follow everybody especially if you are in California and looking for a doula. And Amy, thank you from the bottom of my heart for joining us today and sharing your amazing stories. Amy: Awesome, thanks for having me. It was great. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Adriana is a scientist and professor at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces, New Mexico. During her first pregnancy, Adriana was faced with the possibility of her baby having a severe genetic disease. She became so involved in researching the details of it that she didn't consider the need to research her birthing options as intensely. However, after a long and difficult induction process which ultimately ended in a Cesarean, Adriana was left feeling like she failed as a scientist. She was determined to take charge of her next birth and apply her years of research skills to learning everything about VBAC.Adriana went on to have a peaceful home birth surrounded by a big support system and empowered by her research. She also gives listeners tips on how to interpret published articles on VBAC and explains terms like abstracts, confidence levels, and p-values. “I just found the data is so strong in showing that VBAC is super safe for non-high-risk individuals. Again, having a previous Cesarean does not automatically make you high risk…I had three high-risk factors if you will and still, with those factors counted in, I knew that VBAC was really safe for me just based on the data that I found.”Dr. Adriana L. Romero-Olivares' WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength, we have another amazing VBAC story for you today. This VBAC story follows a C-section that was unplanned which let's be honest, most of ours are, and it had a lot of interventions. We have our friend– oh my gosh. I can't speak today. Adriana, hello. Adriana: Hi. I'm so excited to be here. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for you to be here. Tell me. Okay, so you're currently in Mexico. Where were you when you had your VBAC? Adriana: I'm in New Mexico, so the U.S. Meagan: Oh, you're in New Mexico. Adriana: Yes, exactly. In New Mexico in the U.S. and I had both my unplanned Cesarean and VBAC here in New Mexico. Meagan: Oh, you did? Very good to know. You guys, she is a scientist and a professor. She spent many years researching microbes which is really cool. Do you say fungi? Is that how you say it? Adriana: You can say it fungi, fungi, fungi. People say it in different ways and they are all correct. Meagan: It's like fungus, right? And bacteria? Adriana: Yes. Meagan: I have so much interest in that weirdly enough because it is in our gut. I have a really weird interest in gut health right now. Anyway, and how they are impacting the global climate. Something that's kind of cool about her science journey is it really seems like it was spun after VBAC, right? Adriana: Yeah. I mean, I've had an interest in sciences forever, but I guess I had no idea how much science was behind VBAC and getting into this VBAC project that I had for a while, I feel like it really ended up helping me to grow as a scientist which was really cool. Meagan: So cool. We're going to maybe talk a little bit more about the science of VBAC here in the end so make sure to stick with us. I do have a Review of the Week before she starts sharing her story. This is from eoliver14 and it says, “Love this podcast.” It says, “I'm not one to usually listen to podcasts but ever since I came across this one, I haven't been able to stop listening. I'm preparing for my VBA2C” so VBAC after two Cesareans “and these stories have been so amazing and helpful.”eoliver14, I hope all went well if you have had a baby since then or if you're still preparing, I hope that this podcast is still inspiring you. And if just like eoliver14 this podcast is inspiring you and helping you and building you up, please leave us a review. We love them so much and I really truly, truly, truly believe that so do honestly all of the listeners. I think a lot of listeners love these reviews. It's so fun. You can leave that at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or really wherever you listen to your podcasts. Even if you Google “The VBAC Link”, you can review us there. Meagan: Let's get going into this story. So unplanned C-section. Adriana: Yes. I want to give a very brief background of my life just to get into the mindset that I was when I had the unplanned Cesarean. My husband and I have been together for a really long time. We are going to celebrate our 20th anniversary this year. We met our first year of college and then we've been together ever since but we only had our first child in 2021. That is because we prioritized our careers for a really long time. We are both scientists. We are both professors so we did our Bachelor's together then we did our Master's and then we did our PhD's together. Then we did long distance for a while because we were doing post-doctoral research which is a thing. Then in 2020, we both landed a job in New Mexico State University where we are right now so in August of 2020, we moved across the country from New Hampshire and from New York City to New Mexico. We sort of started our new life in a new city during the pandemic with a new and very demanding job. In April of 2021, which was just a few months after we moved to– we live in Las Cruces, New Mexico. When we moved here, the biggest surprise of our life happened which was that I was pregnant. It was a surprise pregnancy. The pregnancy was just overall uneventful in the sense that I just didn't have any sort of discomfort or anything. I was just tired and that's pretty much it but then when I was around 16 weeks pregnant, I got a phone call out of nowhere. I got the news and this is the way that it was told to me. They were like, “You have a 50% chance of your child having a fragile X chromosome which is a genetic disease.” I was like, “What? What is it? What's that?” I had never heard about it and I was like, “50% chances? That's pretty high.” I remember I was in my office and Jovani, my husband, was there when we got that phone call. We were just very confused then when we started to look into it, it's actually a pretty terrible genetic disease to have so all of a sudden, our whole life shifted. We were very concerned. Since the very beginning of my first pregnancy, there were a lot of interventions just because I was of advanced maternal age. I was 36 at the time and after 35 you are of advanced maternal age. It doesn't matter if everything looks good but if you are older than 35, that's it. They were like, “Oh, we recommend this testing and this other testing and this other one” and so on. One of those testings was genetic testing which I think we wanted to do either way just to be prepared in case of anything. So then we started to look into, “What is this genetic disease?” Once again, it was pretty bad. So then yeah, it was 50% chances. That's pretty terrible. That's where I brought in my scientist skills. I was like, “Wait a minute.” So then I got in touch with a genetic counselor. I don't think this is just the way it is for everyone, but the particular genetic counselor that I spoke with wasn't really helpful even though I told them, “I'm a scientist and I have a pretty strong molecular biology background. I understand DNA and genes very well.” I was looking for very specific information and they were just not really helpful. So then both Jovani and I spent so much time digging into the scientific literature and trying to find information about this disease. That's how we came about some newer testing that really looks deep into the DNA sequence that they find in your baby and then they're able to tell very precisely what your chances are of your child having this disease or not based on the genetic sequence. Then we just spent a lot of time looking into that, finding that information, then advocating for my baby to get this genetic testing done because it was not something that my insurance wanted to cover. Long story short, after a few couple months looking into that and making calls and so on, we found a way for that testing to be done. Then when we got the results back, 50% chances were wrong. The information I got was wrong. Meagan: That's some pretty wrong information to get. Adriana: Yes. It got me thinking how many people are probably given this information with the statistics totally wrong? So then the 50% chances when I looked into it went down to 5% chances and then when we did the additional testing, it went down to 0.1% chances. Essentially, null almost. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Adriana: Yes. Yeah. You know, even though we were very grateful for that, it sort of set this tone in my pregnancy where I was so stressed the whole time. I just didn't put any time in researching how I have to prepare to give birth. I was just in survival mode if that makes any sense just grateful that I didn't have to worry about the genetic disease. I think at around week 35, they were like, “Because of advanced maternal age, we recommend an induction at week 39.” I was like, “Okay. They're recommending this. Let's just go ahead and do this.” I'm a very tall person and Jovani is tall as well so we make big babies kind of. I knew the date of conception of my baby and I knew that based on that date of conception, I was going to be 40 weeks on December 31st. Then somewhere around 30 weeks, they were like, “No. Because of what your baby is measuring, your due date is actually December 22nd so then that means we–” Meagan: 10 days earlier. Adriana: Exactly. They were like, “That means we would like to induce you on December 15th.” Once again, I was like, “Fine. Yeah, sure.” So then on December 15th, we went into an induction. It is a very long story, but long story short, the induction lasted three days and nothing happened. I was given Cervadil and Cytotec and nothing happened. I didn't dilate. Nothing. Meagan: Your body was really not ready. Adriana: It was really not ready. I was really desperate. I was like, “What's going on? Why are things not happening?” No one was giving me any information even though I was asking, “What's going on?” They were like, “Just relax.” I ended up asking a nurse because the doctor came in and was like, “Well, we tried Cytotec and Cervadil and it's not working so the next thing to do is Pitocin.” He was like, “Is that what you want?” I was like, “I don't know. Let me think about it.” I asked a nurse, “What do you think about me getting Pitocin?” The nurse was like, “No. No. They are setting you up for failure. You haven't dilated at all. No. Just say no.” So then I just was desperate for any advice. I ended up saying no and I was discharged. They were like, “We're going to discharge you but you have to come back.” It was a Saturday when I was discharged and they were like, “You have to come back on Tuesday for a second induction. But a lot of times after a failed induction, people go home and they come back in labor a few days later.” I wasn't. On Tuesday, I went back. This was December 21st I think or something. So I went back for a second induction and then when I went in, I was already soft on my cervix. I felt things were advancing really well and I was excited. Then it was almost a three-day induction once again. So they started giving me the same thing. They gave me Cytotec first and they waited for a few hours then I had the Foley bulb inserted. It's like a blur because there were just so many interventions. People were coming in and out of the room the whole time. I was still sort of having a hangover of the last induction because for three days I was so tired. I was so hurt. They couldn't find my vein so then I had multiple bruises in my arm. It was just so many things. I felt kind of a hangover if that makes any sense. Meagan: Yeah. Adriana: I started dilating with the Foley bulb. It came out so at the beginning, things seemed to be going well. Meagan: Better. Adriana: Yeah, better. I was like, “Okay.” I think when I– I don't even know how much I dilated, but at some point, the OB/GYN came in and she was like, “You know, I recommend to you that we rupture your waters just so that things start going.” I was like, “Yeah, sure. Things seem to be going well so let's do it.” They ruptured the waters and then that was pretty much it. I don't feel like things started happening or anything. I was getting cervical checks very, very, very often. I think that sort of messed up my head to some level. They hurt me. They are not the most comfortable things to go through. Meagan: Especially early on in labor.Adriana: Exactly. Meagan: Right when your Foley just came out, you probably had a posterior cervix, pretty closed still. Adriana: Exactly, yeah. There was some bleeding going on. It was really terrible. So then a few hours after my membranes were ruptured, I think maybe the doctor could see that I was not relaxed for obvious reasons and she suggested getting an epidural. She was like, “Oh, I suggest you get an epidural because I think that would help you relax. That can speed up things.” I was like, “Okay.” So then I ended up getting an epidural and then I got one and it only worked on half of my body so then I had to get another one later on. After many, many, many hours, things were not happening. I did end up getting contractions after the Pitocin and the contractions, I could feel on half of my body and then eventually, I just couldn't feel them. I could just feel the pressure. That went on for hours. I mean, I think I got the Pitocin. It started at 8:00 PM maybe or 5:00 PM and then they were increasing the dosage and then around 6:00 AM I think they had gotten to the highest dose that you can get and I was not. They checked me and I was at 5.5 or 6. Then the doctor was like, “Okay, we're going to stop the Pitocin and let your body do things.” My body didn't do anything. The contractions completely stopped once the Pitocin was removed and we waited for an hour or two and this time, my waters had been ruptured for over 24 hours so she was like, “You know, there's nothing else we can do. We've tried everything. Nothing is happening. I recommend having a C-section.” I mean, I think when I really felt I had no other option, I was like, This is what needs to happen and what I have to do, so sure. Let's go ahead and do it. Fortunately, it wasn't an emergency C-section or anything. We still waited for 4 or 5 hours just sitting there waiting for I guess the team to get their act together. They took me to the OR and my baby was born around noon. Everything went fine. I had no complications. My baby had no complications so it was pretty nice but the recovery was so tough. It was just that something inside me didn't feel right. I was like, “What just happened? What just happened? Why did I end up having a C-section?” I would just think about it over and over and over at night when I was nursing and when I was alone with my thoughts and so on. I was like, “What happened?” Those sorts of things and why when I asked questions why no one answered the questions. They were just treating me as if I was an uneducated person. They just didn't want to engage and I think that's wrong in general to everyone just the way that you are dismissed when you ask questions is pretty terrible. They are on a schedule and they have no time or interest in my opinion or in engaging. Then I started to think about it a little bit more and then in my mind, I was like, Well, I guess if I have another child, I can always do things differently. That was the mindset I was in for a few months. Then when I went to my 6-month follow-up appointment to check me and make sure everything was okay. I asked the doctor, “So, if I have another child, I would like to have this child vaginally so I would want to know why did I end up having a C-section? What happened? I know it was failure to progress according to your notes but what does that mean?” She looked at my chart for 10 seconds and she told me, “You cannot deliver vaginally because your pelvis is too small.” I was like, “What?” I was like, “No. No. That cannot be.” I know that your body doesn't. You can have your pelvis one way and it doesn't really mean anything based on your body but I have a pear-shaped body so I was like, “I don't think my pelvis is too small.” So then I asked her, “How do you know that my pelvis is really small?” She was like, “Because you failed to progress.” She did not want to engage. She did not want to. I just left that room and I was livid. I was so angry that she did not want to engage. She did not want to have a conversation. I didn't even know if I was going to have another child at that point but I was like, If I ever get pregnant again, I'm just not going to come here. I just kept thinking about it over and over and over. I was like, I just need to reach out to someone who can help me understand this a little bit better. I reached out to a local doula and asked for information about VBAC in general. I didn't know it was called VBAC at the time. I was like, This happened to me. If this were to happen to me again, can I deliver vaginally? She invited me to a VBAC course and the course was super awesome. They shared a ton of statistics on inductions and VBACs and so on. She also suggested doing a birth story processing which was pretty awesome too. So then 18 months later, I got pregnant with my second child and I knew exactly what I wanted which was not what I had before. I knew that I wanted a VBAC ideally and that I wanted as few interventions as possible. I wanted a provider who would engage with me and I wanted a provider who would follow evidence-based facts and of course, a provider who was VBAC-supportive. I looked for all of those things around my town. We have two hospitals. It's not a huge city and I asked around. Basically, the information that I got was that they were VBAC tolerant but because I was of advanced maternal age, probably none of them would be comfortable having me as a patient. So then I ended up finding a midwife practice and that was what I ended up choosing because they were all that I wanted. They were amazing and I did end up having the most wonderful experience throughout my pregnancy with them. Throughout my pregnancy, I did a lot of research on my options. I educated myself on physiological birth and I also took classes on a home birth. I did a bunch of other things. I did a fear-release hypnosis. I did the birth story processing which was I think one of the most helpful things that I could do throughout my pregnancy. I didn't really think that I had trauma related to my past pregnancy or fear of any sort, but then through the birth story processing, I ended up finding out that I did have some birth trauma and I had a lot of fear for this new pregnancy associated to my experience with my last pregnancy. Then I did the Daily Essentials of Spinning Babies every day. I didn't skip any day just in case position was an issue last time. I ended up getting my documents from my last pregnancy like my records–Meagan: Your op reports. Adriana: Yeah. I ended up getting them actually one week before my VBAC. It was always something that I knew I needed to go get this done but then I kept forgetting. Then before my VBAC, I was like, I need to get this report and I need to read it so I can get some closure. I ended up finding out some really interesting things. This is a parenthesis. They said that my uterus was boggy when they were doing the C-section and they said that they had to take out the uterus and massage it because it was boggy. I was like, What is that? I looked into that a little bit more and I ended up finding out that my uterus was so tired from the Pitocin and the contractions that it was not working. That gave me some closure if that makes sense. I was like, It's not because my body wasn't working. It was just overtired. I had listened to the VBAC Link podcasts every day also. I did daily walks and you were my companion throughout those walks and just listening to all of the different stories gave me an idea that birth can go in many different directions and it helped me understand that you really have very little control over your birth experience. You can prepare all you want but then at some point, you have to let go because you can't really control the situation. As a scientist, that is very frustrating because we are always in control of our experiments. But in a way, we can never control the outcome of the experiment so in a way, I was like, Okay, this is one more experiment. Yes. I did have spotting on week 18 of my pregnancy and I was diagnosed with marginal placenta previa and possible accreta so for a few weeks I was like, Well, maybe this is just not meant to be and that is okay. But then it ended up resolving by week 28 so I was cleared for VBAC. Throughout the pregnancy, I kept my plans secret from almost everyone including my parents and my in-laws. I told Jovani, “You are forbidden to talk about this with anyone.” As you start getting closer to your due date, people start asking questions which to me is like, why do they want to know such specific information like where are you giving birth? I never ask that but some people really want to get all the details. I just told him, “Just lie and tell them that it's going to be at a hospital. Just say whatever you want. I don't care. I just don't want people asking questions and just getting reactions over my birthing plans and decisions.” Exactly. I don't want to give explanations to anyone. I don't have the energy to educate anyone at the moment. I know that I am making the right decision for me and that's pretty much it. So that was really difficult keeping that information from some friends but as my due date got closer of course, we shared the information with my parents and just our families in general and our in-laws. I did share my plans with a few very, very close friends of mine. Most of them were supportive. Some of them– I guess I had to deal with some anxiety on their side. My doula helped me a lot with that because I was getting almost angry that they were anxious. My doula was like, “You have to remember that they love you and they love your baby. They are scared for you and your baby so try to understand them.” It gave me that perspective like, yeah. If I didn't know, if I wasn't educated enough on facts, I would probably be anxious too. Especially around week 35, their anxiety passed on to me and I started to have a lot of doubts about my decision. I was like, Is this the right decision? Is this really what I want? By then, I was so soaked on data and stats because I just put so much time into researching all of that, that it was how I calmed myself down. It was like, You know the data. You know the stats. You know the chances of things going wrong. Of course, there are chances of things going wrong, but the chances are so low that it's almost impossible for this to happen. If something were to happen, okay. You were one of those improbable chances, but it was a chance that I was willing to take based on the statistics. Once again, that really helped me deal with the anxiety and if I would have had energy at the time, I would have been more than happy to share all the data and stats with friends and family. This is also how my husband ended up being convinced that I wanted a VBAC and that I wanted a home birth as well. I remember this one day, I think there was some sort of miscommunication between him and I at the beginning. At first, he wasn't super happy that I was going with a midwifery practice but then I was like, “They are trained professionals. It's not like Call the Midwife where she shows up with a tissue.” I was like, “No. These people come with equipment. That's how it is.” So that calmed him down but I think he thought I was going to give birth at the hospital so then one day I was watching, I don't know if you hear of this terrible thing that could happen with an uncertified midwife where the baby was footling breech and it was a really terrible story. I was watching something on YouTube and it came up and Jovani was like, “I don't understand these crazy people who want to give birth at home.” I was like, “Hello, I'm planning to give birth at home.” He was like, “What?” So I told him, “Yes, Jovani. I am planning to give birth at home. This has been the plan the whole time.” He was like, “No, I thought it was going to be at the hospital.” I was like, “No. It's going to be at home.” He was really, really, really nervous for a while so once again, I shared statistics and data with him. The midwives also were like, “Bring him in. Have him bring all the questions that he wants and we will answer them. We are here to help.” All of a sudden after a couple weeks after having that conversation, I shared a lot of resources with him. I told him, “Do you want to come with me to the midwife's appointment so you can ask any questions you want?” He was like, “No, it's okay.” I was like, “Oh, so you're cool with me having a home birth?” He was like, “Yeah, if that's what you want. I respect that. I respect your choices. I trust you as an individual and the choices that you make so that's totally fine.” Giving him resources so that he could see the data I feel like really, really helped him. Then with some of my family members like my brother, for example, he was like, “Why do you want to do this? Why don't you just, why? Why do you want to do this that isn't the norm?” I explained to him my rationale and he was like, “Okay.” I had some other conversations. I have a family member and she is a physician and she was also like, “Why would you want to do this? Cesareans are so easy especially if they are scheduled. You just go in. You don't suffer and then you just come out with a baby.” I was like, “Have you had a Cesarean?” Of course, she hasn't. I was like, “It's not really that easy. The recovery is really, really, really tough and there can be some very serious complications. If it's needed then that's wonderful,” but I know that I did not need one for my first pregnancy and I know that I did not need one right now. So then at 39 weeks, I started to feel very anxious because nothing was happening and I was very worried that I was not going to go into labor on my own because I never went into labor last time even though I know I was early. But I was still worried that, What if I never go into labor on my own? I'm going to start getting very nervous if I go past 40 weeks. Then at 39+5, I had prodromal labor at night so I felt excited to experience real contractions I guess for the first time. I was also very worried that I was not going to be able to go unmedicated because the prodromal labor was quite intense and I got thinking about all of these people who have shared their stories that they had prodromal labor for weeks. I was like, Oh my gosh. That's horrible. I reached out to my doula and I was like, “Okay, I had prodromal labor last night. I'm very worried about not being able to handle the unmedicated birth that I want to do.” She suggested we do a welcome baby hypnosis session and to focus on relaxation so I guess once again, as a scientist, I never thought that I would be into hypnosis. It just ended up being this wonderful resource that helped me a lot during my pregnancy and during labor. On my due date exactly, so I woke up and noticed that I had lost what looked like pieces of my mucus plug and then within a few hours, I started having some mild contractions around 1:00 PM and then the contractions continued to get more intense throughout the afternoon and the evening. At midnight, my contractions were super intense but they were not consistent. I couldn't get any sleep because of the intensity of the contractions but I did try to rest as much as possible. Around 4:00 PM, my doula checked in and she was like, “What's going on?” I was like, “I've been having these contractions on and off.” I felt the contractions where you feel period cramps and they were more in my abdomen. They were so intense in that area but just according to what people said, they were like, “We could feel them in my whole belly.” I was like, “These are just weird. I don't know. Are they real contractions or not?” Just because they were not consistent, I would get them every 3 minutes, every 5 minutes, every 7 minutes. Sometimes they would last a minute but sometimes less and sometimes more so I was just super, super, super confused and my doula told me, “You're probably having prodromal labor again.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. No. This cannot be. It cannot be because I'm not going to be able to withstand this for much longer.” It had been 15 hours or so at that point. So I was tired and I hadn't slept at all. This was around 4:00 AM so then my doula once again suggested I reach out to the midwives and ask them if I could have a cervical check. She was like, “That's going to give you an idea of if this is actual labor or if this is prodromal labor. I was like, “Okay.” So then I texted my midwife. I didn't want to call them because I didn't want to bother them at 4:00 AM so I texted them and I was like, “Can I go to your office?” even though I don't know why I suggested that because it would have been horrible to get in my car and drive to their office. I was like, “Can I go to your office in the morning so that I can get a cervical check?” They replied and they were like, “Yeah, sure. You can come to our office. We will see you there at 8:00 AM.” At this point, it was 4:30 AM and I think it was at 7:00. I was like, “I just don't think I can do this for one more hour.” I texted them again and I was like, “Can I go to your office now? The pain is pretty intense. Can I go now?” Then one of them replied and she was like, “Actually, we can go to your house. We can go to your home and we can check you there. Are you okay with that?” I was like, “Yes, yes.” They ended up coming at 8:00 AM and they checked me. She was like, “You're 6 centimeters dilated.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. Thank you.” I was so excited. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Yes. I knew this could not be prodromal labor for so long.” She was like, “You're 6 centimeters dilated.” I was also leaking some amniotic fluid so she was like, “Things are about to get more intense now.” She offered some pain medication. I don't remember what it was but she was like, “This is the pain medication that I can give you. Yes. It's going to reduce the pain but it's also probably going to slow down things. Are you okay with that?” I was like, “No. Don't give me anything. I just want to get this over with.” I knew understanding– I feel like the first part of labor was very confusing. I was like, “Are these contractions? Are these not? Am I dilating? Am I not?” But understanding physiological birth, I knew very well that after 6 centimeters, things are about to get really intense but they are also going to be faster ideally. I guess I sort of trusted that. I was like, “Things are about to get more intense. I know that for sure and ideally, they're going to get faster so I think I can keep doing this for a few more hours so no pain medication, thank you.”She was like, “Okay. I'm going to check in again with you at 11:00 AM.” It was 8:00 AM at this point. She was like, “If anything happens, just let me know.” She left and I think as soon as she left, things got really intense. I lost my mucus plug and then I had bloody show and I continued to labor peacefully at home. I was just in my room quietly. My mom and my dad were here because they live out of town and I asked them to please come to support me and to help with my son, my toddler. They were here but they were in the living room so it was only Jovani and I in the room. I sort of continued to ride the wave. That was my main coping mechanism. I was like, “Okay. A contraction is about to happen and then I would just count and Jovani helped me with back pressure.” Sort of the next few hours are a blur again. I think I was just so focused on coping with the pain, I was just counting over and over and over. I used a comb for a little bit but just was counting and riding the wave is what helped me the most. At some point, my doula and her student showed up. I think Jovani texted them. I don't know. Meagan: 4-1-1, come!Adriana: Yes. They came in and they helped me. They did some massage and helped with back pressure as well. That made a huge difference. I got into the shower at some point. Huge relief to get some hot water on my belly. That really helped. Also, at some point, I had two midwives and one student midwife. At some point, they showed up as well. They started setting up the birth pool and then at some point, I noticed my contractions were not as back-to-back as they were a few minutes before. Once again, understanding physiological birth, I was like, “I'm getting close. I know my contractions are not back to back anymore so I know I'm getting close to being done.” My midwife– I had asked some questions to her before and I was like, “How do you know? I don't want constant cervical checks so how do I know that I'm about to be done?” I remember she told me, “We know. We are trained to listen to the birthing person and we can tell when they are getting close.” So I guess they could tell and around that time, she was like, “Okay, I think it's time for you to jump into the pool.” I think this was around 11:30 or something. I was on my knees and my arms were on my bed. That was the position that I felt most comfortable laboring in so when I stood up, I felt something coming out. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Something is coming out.” I went into the pool and within a few minutes, I started to feel very strong contractions in my whole abdomen finally. Up to this point, the contractions were only on my lower belly. My body started to push and after two pushes, the head of my baby came out and on the third push, all of him came out. I don't know how long that took. It short of felt like forever to me but they told me it was pretty quick so I don't know, maybe 15 minutes. I have no idea. It's really funny how you lose sense of time. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Adriana: During that time. There were so many people in the room at that point. It was the two midwives, the student midwife, the doula, the student doula, my mom, and Jovani but it was pretty interesting because the ambiance was so quiet. Everyone was really quiet the whole time. It was really, really peaceful and then when baby came out, everybody was clapping and so on. My dad was outside the room and he was like, “It was so quiet. I was getting worried then all of a sudden, I could hear excitement and clapping.” I was able to catch him and we did immediate skin-to-skin. I couldn't believe it. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I couldn't believe it. I got a shot of Pitocin and then birthed the placenta within a few minutes. My midwives tucked me into my bed. My baby was still attached to the placenta. My doula brought me a donut. Jovani got me coffee. My mom brought me a sandwich. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. Adriana: Yes. It was one of the best meals I've had in my life. I was so happy and so excited. I had a very small tear so I didn't need any stitches or anything and the recovery was so easy. It was nothing compared to recovering from a Cesarean in my experience after a long induction. Then it was really nice too because in the next days and weeks, my midwives visited me in my home. The checkups and everything were at home so that was pretty wonderful. I guess throughout this whole process once again, understanding, it was really interesting to me how– I don't want to call it a project but I guess it was a project and like an experiment, like the things we do in the lab. You look for background information. You prepare everything. You inform yourself with data and what other people have found. You look at statistics so it was really interesting to me how this VBAC journey helped me grow as a scientist. That was one of the nice outcomes. Something I forgot to say is that after my Cesarean and when I did the birth story processing– because you give a bunch of information to the person who is doing the processing for you and one of the things that I couldn't point out was why I was so bothered with the experience. If everything had gone well, what was it that was bothering me? She was the one who brought it up because one of the things I kept bringing up was, “I do research for a living. This is what I do. This is what I do every day. I research. I look at data. I look at stats. I read the literature. This is what I do. Why didn't I do any research for my first pregnancy? Why didn't I prepare myself? Why didn't I second-guess what the medical doctors were suggesting me to do? If I'm always second-guessing what everyone says, especially in science, you are always like, where is the evidence? Can I see the data? Why didn't I do that?”It was really interesting that she brought this up. She was like, “It seems like you feel like you failed as a scientist with your first birth experience. It seems like you feel like you failed as a scientist.” I was like, “Yes. That is exactly how I feel. Yeah. I feel like I failed as a scientist. Why didn't I put any work in researching one of the most important events of my life? Why didn't I do that?” I think a way to cope with that in my second pregnancy was doing the opposite and really doing all of the research, looking at all of the data and all of the stats. At some point, I was like, I've done all of the work so whatever the outcome is, it's not on me.Meagan: It's out of your hands. It's out of your hands. Adriana: Exactly. It's out of my hands. So that was something that really helped me throughout my pregnancy and throughout labor. I'm happy that I had the outcome I wanted but I think at some point, especially in the last weeks of pregnancy, I was like, Whatever the outcome is, I've made peace with it because I've done all I can to prepare and that's it.Meagan: Yeah, that's such a great message to share because in the end, just like you said, I actually love how you said it. I prepare. I gather. I do the experiment and not that birth is an experiment, but in the science lab, and then the outcome is really unknown. Adriana: Yeah. Meagan: It's really unknown. Sometimes you can control it by adding whatever into it and sometimes you can't. It's like labor. Sometimes we go to the hospital and we can control it with Pitocin or an epidural or whatever and sometimes we still have these outcomes. Such a great message. Just in the end, it's so hard for the not-average scientist, the average person, not the scientist, to really decode all of the literature out there. Do you have any tips for the listeners on how they can go about taking the preparation like what you did? Obviously, we have blogs and our VBAC course and all of the things to try and help break these things down into English because sometimes they are very hard to understand. Adriana: Don't get me started. Meagan: Yeah, but what suggestions would you give to any of the listeners? Adriana: Yeah, I have a few. The scientific literature– I feel so annoyed having to write the findings of my experiments in that type of language, but I guess that is sort of how things are done. One of the things that I recommend people doing is not one that a lot of people think of, but you can reach out to the authors of the papers. I get so excited when someone reaches out to me and they are like, “I saw this paper. Can you explain to me what it means?” Most scientists are just going to be so excited to have people reach out to them and tell them, “Can you help me understand this?” Most of them are going to be so excited about that. That's one thing you can do if you feel like reaching out to someone.Maybe sometimes they are not going to reply, but I would say most scientists–Meagan: Worth a shot. Adriana: Exactly. It's definitely worth a shot and most scientists are going to be so excited that you are reaching out to them. The other thing is that most papers come with a short summary at the beginning. It's usually called “summary” or “abstract” and in that summary, they summarize the findings in a way that is way easier to understand than if you look at the results in the discussion because sometimes also the plots are impossible to understand, the statistics are very difficult to understand if you are not trained in statistics, so reading the abstract and the summary, especially toward the end, there is usually one to three sentences with the main outcome of the experiment. They are not going to give you statistics or anything, but they are going to tell you what they have found. You will see that most scientists are really conservative on what they conclude from their study. Even if their data and stats are really strong, they are usually very conservative on the way that they conclude and then sometimes that conclusion gets lost somewhere when the information is given to you by your OB/GYN for example so I would really encourage folks to look at those last few sentences to really understand, Okay. My OB/GYN brought up this scientific article. Let me go and see what is actually written there and what they are actually saying. By reading those one to three sentences, you're going to get a better understanding of what the scientist actually found. Meagan: Overall, with VBAC, what was the overall finding? Obviously, I kind of know a lot of the overall findings, but what was the overall finding that you found in your own research when it comes to VBAC and the safety of it? Adriana: Yeah. I just found the data is so strong in showing that VBAC is super safe for non-high-risk individuals. Again, having a previous Cesarean does not automatically make you high-risk and I guess if you think about it, I was “high-risk” because I had a previous Cesarean. I am of advanced maternal age and I also have a higher than average BMI so I had three high-risk factors if you will and still, with those factors counted in, I knew that VBAC was really safe for me just based on the data that I found. Then if you add in too the reduction of interventions, that makes the chances of VBAC really high. Meagan: VBAC high, rupture risk is lower. Adriana: Exactly. If you keep adding things, I found especially when researching for home birth, the data is really messy out there. It's not desegregated and by this, I mean that when they show you the statistics for home birth, they show you the statistics of everything together like people who had unplanned home births for example. The outcomes of those can be very different than that of a planned home birth and they also add people who end up having spontaneous abortions at home and that's included as a home birth. That is ridiculous so we really need desegregated data so sometimes when you go into the scientific literature, you can get the desegregated data in the scientific paper. Once again, I know that is not in an available format for people who don't have the training but again, you can reach out to the authors of the paper and to the scientists for them to explain to you what is the actual finding or read the abstract so that you can see. Most of those papers are like, “We need more research on planned home births.” Meagan: Right. Oh, such great information. I know we have so little time but I have one more random question because in a lot of these articles, they say, “Confidence level blah-blah-blah.” Can you describe what that means as someone who is reading that? What does that mean when an author says that?Adriana: When an author says that, they are taking percentages as their confidence level. When they say 95% confidence, it's that they mean that out of say 100 individuals, the chances of this occurring is less than 5% when there is a 95% confidence interval. Once again, it could mean depending on the type of data that out of 100 people, 95 people we know for sure backed up by statistics that 95% out of 100 individuals are going to have this outcome. That's basically it. They are just giving you a percentage so that it is a little bit easier to understand and we also use this same thing with P-values. P-values are something that you see all the time in scientific literature. It is the exact same thing. We consider P-values smaller than 0.05 as significant so essentially, this means that there is a less than 5% chance that whatever you are studying is happening out of chance. Essentially, it's telling you there are 95% chances that what you are seeing is actually happening and it's not something that is happening out of chance if that makes sense. Meagan: That totally makes sense. Adriana: Yeah. Meagan: Oh my gosh. We could probably talk about this for a long time, but I will not keep you any longer. I appreciate you so much. Congratulations on your birth. Thank you so much for sharing with us and have a wonderful day. Adriana: Thank you for inviting me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I leaned back in the tub and I think what I said was just, ‘I've never held one of my babies after they were born before.'It was interesting how there was an element that was sort of mundane about it but I liked that. It was just the normalcy of it all that shocked me if that makes sense.” Since her only experiences with her previous births were in a sterile, surgical, hospital environment, the simplicity and freedom of a home birth felt shockingly normal in all the best ways!Jolie shares her first C-section, her planned home birth turned CBAC, followed by a 15-hour home birth at 43 weeks to an almost 11-pound baby with her third. She gives invaluable advice on how to REALLY know if you have the right provider for you and how it may not always be the VBAC-supportive provider everyone recommends. Jolie's Photography and Coaching Contact InfoTransforming BirthNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It's Meagan here. We have another VBAC story for you today and we have our friend, Jolie. Hello, Jolie. Jolie: Hey, Meagan. Meagan: How are you today? Jolie: I'm good. How are you? Meagan: I am so great. I am so excited to record your story. There were a whole bunch of little snippets through your story that I'm like, Oh, I want to talk about that. But I wanted to tell everybody that I've been starting to do this. I don't know if you've been noticing but we get a lot of emails of, Hey, where was this person located? What state was that? I'm curious if it was my state so I can try to find that provider. We are going to have her providers and stuff tagged in today's post but you say you are in North Georgia, correct? Jolie: Yes. Meagan: Is that just where your VBAC was or is that where you are residing now? Jolie: Nope, this is where my VBAC was, in North Georgia. Meagan: Okay, so North Georgia people, listen up. This is going to be a great story. I'll tell you guys a little bit more. Okay, so you're a birth worker and a photographer. Are you a doula? Jolie: Yes. Yep. I was trained as a doula in 2020 but I'm exploring different ways to support people in the birth community because, with three young children, I'm just trying to navigate the on-call life and doing things. But yes, I do have experience being a doula. Meagan: Awesome. So cool. Like she said, she has three kiddos. She is a Christian wife to a Biblical counselor. That's awesome. I love how you guys said that you have a vision of a multi-generational team on a mission to God's kingdom. I just love that so much. I am so excited to record your story here in just a few seconds. I do of course have a Review of the Week as always. We always have reviews and just a reminder, if you haven't left a review yet, we would love them. They really do help the show. They help other Women of Strength find these amazing stories and honestly, they just put a ginormous smile on my face. This review says, “Love these ladies and this podcast.” It says, “I love listening to your podcast. I listen almost every day in the car. So often that my oldest son knows you both by name. The stories shared here have inspired me so much. I wish I had all of this information with my first baby. I have had two C-sections. I'm not pregnant at the moment and still have to get my husband on board for a third, but I am so excited to start planning for a VBAC after two C-sections when the time comes. Thank you, Julie and Megan, for creating this amazing VBAC community. I'm so thankful for the education and support.” Okay, seriously, I love that. We keep hearing this. I love that other kids know who we are because they are just so used to listening to the podcast because this is what I love even more than just they know who they are. They are learning. These kids are sponges. We know that. They are always taking stuff in that we are saying and if they're listening to these stories, they are learning. So hopefully if your kiddos are learning and listening, they are going to have a different outcome in their future for their future births if they so choose to because they're going to know, right? They're going to know all of these stories. Anyway, that makes my heart smile. Jolie: That's awesome. Meagan: All right, girl. Are you ready? Let's do this. Jolie: All right. Meagan: All right. Let's turn the time over. Jolie: Okay, so yes. I had a home birth in November, November 5th. That was a home birth after two Cesareans so an HBA2C. I'll just do a small synopsis of the first two births because I feel like that always helps preface the background of where I'm coming from. I think everybody's journey to their VBAC is totally different. Meagan: Yeah, totally different and at the same time, there are so many listening who are like, Oh my gosh, this is just like me. I think sometimes we hold on to those past experiences even if we've processed them. We know that was our past so sometimes we even doubt ourselves because of that so hearing someone's story who is pretty similar to yours and then hearing them go on to have a VBAC is pretty impactful. Jolie: Yeah, absolutely. I can relate to that as well with listening to podcasts and finding those stories of women's journeys to their VBACs. I definitely clung onto the ones I related to. With my first baby, our daughter, she was born in 2019 and I mean, that was like so many, a typical cascade of interventions situation where I was aware of home birth and natural childbirth. I knew that I wanted that, but I also was just young and didn't know and wasn't aware of the resources I had. It's pretty much what I chaulked that up to. I just was getting into birth and eyes wide open and reading what I could but I didn't really know obviously what the future was going to hold for me. I didn't know all what was available to me either. I was seeing a traditional OB group and was planning a hospital birth but wanted just a natural childbirth with no interventions at all. I just wanted in in the hospital. I ended up getting fear-mongered to just put it simply out there. Fearmongered into an induction at 41 weeks and yeah. Quite frankly, it just didn't work. My body was not ready. I was not open at all and I was so determined. I stayed in that hospital working with an induction for a whole week before I had my C-section. I was trying to go slow and steady and I was going a little stir crazy there at the end of that week. I obviously was confused and just downcast and so just sad about what was happening. I was shocked that I was there in that situation. I remember reading Ina May's book and skipping the C-section chapter because I was like, That's not going to be me. Why do I need to read this? Meagan: That's really normal. Even here with the CBAC stories, I think it's really common to be like, I don't want to listen to that CBAC story because that's not going to be me. But at the same time, I think it's good too. Jolie: Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a balance to that. I found myself at the end of that week pushing 42 and was kind of again just had fear within me and had fear coming from my providers of, “You've been at this for a week. You're not in labor. Your options are to leave or have a C-section.” I was just like, “Leave? I've been here for a week. I'm not going to leave here without a baby.” We opted for the C-section and she was fine. We handled that whole week together perfectly fine. There were no emergencies or hiccups in the road. It was just like, “All right. This is just what we do next,” kind of at this point. She was born at 32 to the day via Cesarean and yeah. That was that. I definitely processed the birth very traumatically because any trauma is how you process what's going on. I know there are births out there that could look like that and people handle it differently. So anyway, for me, I processed it with a sense of trauma. I spent that next year just working through that sorrow and trauma. I started seeing a Biblical counselor which is why I included in my little bio that my husband is one because I saw one and the change that he saw in me is what spurred him on and encouraged him to become one. That was a really cool moment in our family where I was going to this wonderful woman for help and just handling my birth. Anyway, that was really helpful for me in growing and changing the way I was looking at my birth. I was very determined to have a VBAC. My husband I have always said that we want however many children the Lord would give us. I assumed that wouldn't be just one. I wanted another one so I was very determined for a VBAC for my second pregnancy. We conceived my second when my daughter turned one. It was a year later and I was just– the way this pregnancy and birth happened which was a repeat Cesarean, I just put my blinders on and put my head down and was like, I just need to hire a home birth midwife and she's going to give me my VBAC. That was my attitude. Surely if I plan a home birth, I'm not leaving my house. There's no way it will end in a C-section. I was very– I don't know if stubborn was the right word, but there was a sense that I was covering up all that I went through with this first birth to just have the VBAC, have the VBAC. It was almost like that was going to fix the first one. That was how I felt. In hindsight, I see that now. In the moment, I probably did not recognize that that was how I was operating. I hired a home birth midwife who came recommended to me. I knew friends who used her. So then here we are towards the end approaching 41 weeks like the last time and my water broke on 41 weeks. It was the first sign of labor and I had no signs of labor with my first child so that was so exciting. I was kind of scared too. I was surprised. My water broke at 41 and I was talking to my midwife and whatnot. I had some little pitter-patter contractions that night and then nothing the next day. That was on a Sunday. My son ended up being born that Thursday via Cesarean. What happened within that week or a little less than a week was not the funnest of times. I pretty much realized there at the very end when I was needing– you're here at the end and you're like, What's going to happen next? I realized, I hired the wrong midwife, but what do I do now? Meagan: No way. Jolie: Yeah. Like I said, I'm not going to speak ill, but I believe that every care provider is not the right fit for everyone. So just because I heard wonderful reviews, that's not negating the fact that she was wonderful for some people, but looking back, this is pairing it where my head was down and my blinders were on. Now I can see in hindsight the red flags that were coming up. I was like, Oh, she's just tired. Maybe she just got back from a birth and that's why she seems grumpy. She's been doing this for a long time. I was just giving reasons to why she was the way she was. It was nothing more than that we just didn't click well. After my water broke, she took on this fearful attitude. She was very concerned and just didn't know what to do. She really fed into fears that I had and new ones in my head. I was just like, This is not helping. What's going on? All that to say, I think she wanted me to have a biophysical profile done since my water had broken and I was 41 and labor hadn't begun. Obviously, the profile came back that there was low fluid which I knew because my water had broken but there was nothing else concerning with my son. But because of that report, she transferred me to the hospital. She transferred care and she called my husband after the report came back to her and said, “Y'all need to go to the hospital. I'm not going to be able to support you. Just go.” That moment from the report to the hospital was scary for me but on the way there, I had this peace come over me because I was going back to the hospital that my daughter was born at and before this birth, I was very much even just seeing the hospital– I would just not look at it by the side of the road. I had all of this emotion attached to this place. I knew a few people who worked there in the labor and delivery ward. I had their numbers so I messaged them. I was like, “Is there any chance y'all are here?” Long story short, I'm coming. I don't want to be here, but I'm coming. They were. I had a friend come and she prayed with me and I had seen another nurse there who was there when I had my daughter and she remembered me. It was just this very healing moment in the sense of I was respected. People totally were not judging me for coming in as a home birth transfer. I was worried about that that I would get a side-eye or judgment because I was a home birth mom. I was actually going to the hospital and I didn't have a provider there. But no, they were all so very much like, “We are so sorry that you are here because we know that you don't want to be here but we are taking care of you. We understand that this is hard for you to process everything that's going on right now.” That was healing in itself. That healed my emotional attachments to the hospital that were negative. He was fine. They monitored him for a few minutes when we got there. He was fine, but they also– I did tell my husband when we were on the way, “I just know that it's going to be another C-section because I don't even have a doctor here. My water's broken. I'm already a VBAC.” I kind of had accepted that outcome before even getting there and decided to opt for it again. The doctor there was also very respectful with all of that just like the nurses were. He was born at 41 and 5. He was fine even though the water had been broken for some time. So that was that. In processing that birth, it was a little bit different than my first. I definitely felt like I was at a fork in the road though because here I am. I've just had two. I was technically a home birth transfer. I was determined to get this VBAC. What in the world happened that time? I just realized that I had taken any sort of trust and responsibility in the medical community or within myself and just put it in the hands of this midwife and put her up on this pedestal of, You're going to give me the birth that I want. I misplaced that into the whole home birth community. I was like, I can't do that again. But then that is some deep internal work then. If I am realizing that I am making all of these other people responsible for my birth and my outcome and it's not working out great, I need to figure out what the root of this is and really work on it. That began the year journey of just doing some more internal work and more counseling and therapy and stuff like that. I remember it might have been this podcast episode that I listened to or it could have been another birth podcast. It was honestly a lightbulb going off. I didn't realize I could do this. I can't remember. I think it was your podcast but one of y'all said, “I interviewed seven providers before I became pregnant again to pick one out.” Meagan: Yeah. I actually interviewed 12. Jolie: Yes, okay. I wrote that down. I heard that and I was like, Wait a minute. How am I going to do that if I'm pregnant and scrambling to find the perfect provider? I heard you say that and it was almost like, Whoa. I didn't realize I could interview people when I'm not pregnant, but why couldn't I? So that helped me. Meagan: It sounds weird. Why would you go talk to a doctor if you're not pregnant? Jolie: Yeah, but that gave me so much peace and confidence. It was a clear path of, Oh. I'm not pregnant. I've got time. I started. I didn't want to figure this all out until my son turned 1 so I was just like, You need to take a breath. Everybody talks about your next baby right after you had one and I'm always like, Can you just slow down? I just had a baby and I'm going to enjoy this time. So I waited a year not to get pregnant the third time but a year to go after my provider, find my plan, and really do the deep work again. So I did. I started interviewing all of these people. I found my midwife a little over a year before I conceived my third baby. I found her early when I wasn't pregnant. It was just such a God-ordained, perfect experience where my husband and I went and had a conversation with her. She just aligned with us on a biological level, on a spiritual level. That was something I didn't realize how important it was going to be to me to find a fellow Christian who really walked out their life with the Lord and she did. I developed a close friendship with her actually even before I was pregnant. Being in the birth world, I would work with her. I had attended some births with her before I became pregnant so I really just saw her live it out and I knew she was amazing. What's so funny, just the way the mind and body and spirit are connected was when I first met her and did the interview with my husband, I hadn't started my cycle back. I was telling her, “I'm just looking. I need a VBAC. I want a VBAC. I'm not pregnant yet, but I haven't started my cycle either so I have no idea when.” The very next day, I got my period. For me, I felt like it was my body coming into alignment with the fact that I just found somebody who was going to be amazing for my birth. Meagan: You're ready. Jolie: I emailed her, “This is so weird but I literally just started my cycle.” Anyway, that was just a really cool moment for me to recognize that connection.That was when I found my midwife and that was such a key part to my VBAC. Then it was about a year later when I got pregnant with my third. I hired her and we were just so excited. Okay, so one of my big things with interviewing people for my third was, “Okay, I have had two pregnancies and two Cesareans. Historically, I have gone postdates with both of them. I need to know what your deal is with due dates and the whole ‘let me' language and all of that.” I was trying to figure out what I aligned with in that regard and what they would support me with. So here I am approaching 42 weeks. She was very much like, “Whatever. We'll check on you more when you're past your due date if you want and we'll obviously take care of you but I have no cutoff or whatever.” Yeah. So I was 42 weeks and I started losing a little bit of my mucus plug. That was exciting but then another pretty much week went by and here I am a couple days before 43 and I have two nights of prodromal labor where the contractions would wake me up in the night but then I'd go back to sleep. That was the first night on a Thursday night I would have those contractions. Friday rolls around. I am so pregnant and so tired. It was definitely emotionally very challenging that last month. But Friday night comes around. They pick up again and that night, I really couldn't sleep so I would be on the birth ball. I would get in the bathtub and yeah. I knew I was going to need some support on Saturday because of my other children so it did fizzle out Saturday morning, but I had a friend come and play with my kids. We just all hung out together on Saturday. I did have some contractions that were strong every 30 minutes to an hour during the day on Saturday. I was pretty much– that Saturday I was 43 weeks I think. Either Saturday or Friday I was 43 weeks. That evening it started picking up a little bit more and my birth team, so my midwife and her assistant who was going to come to the birth and my husband. They came over around 10:30 Saturday morning and then 30 minutes later– so they got to my house at 10:30-11:00 PM. My kids were asleep so that was fine. I wasn't really sure if I was going to have them around or not. I was going to play it by ear because I wasn't sure what kind of support I'd need from my husband and how they were going to handle it. Through the night they slept which was great and I was laboring that Saturday night. My water broke at 11:00 PM Saturday night 30 minutes after my birth team got there and that was something that I was having to really work with in my mind because of the second birth having my water break as the first sign of labor and then not have the baby for several days. I was really wanting to not have my water break early. Meagan: Yeah. Jolie: But my water breaking actually when it broke at 11:00, I was in labor before then. That was a different situation and I just had this wave of peace come over me again because I knew I was finally in labor and my birth team was going to stay. It wasn't going to be, “Oh, nevermind. We're going to go home now.” They were here and the water was clear. I had no worries. I was actually really excited after my water broke because I thought I wasn't going to be because of my second birth but I was so thankful. Pretty much from there on, it started picking up pretty intensely. The nighttime was a blur. I just did squats and walked around and swayed and just clung to door frames I feel like. I was just sort of, yeah. I definitely struggled with holding tension in my body in the contractions. I did labor pretty much all night on Saturday and then later in the night maybe around 4:00 or 5:00 AM, I finally found a great place to relax and just a position. It was actually just laying in the bed reclined is what did it for me. I was able to melt into the contractions and I could tell that I was opening and progressing. I just slept around 4:00 or 5:00 until 7:00 AM so early into Sunday morning now. I was definitely still laboring intensely but I was sleeping. To somebody on the outside, you would just think, Oh, she's just taking a nap. I was in transition actually. I did not think I would want a cervical exam because of my previous two births– never dilating, all of that. I had to move past that whole belief that my body was not going to open and things like that so I wasn't sure how I was going to do with exams and stuff. But at that time, being a doula and hearing so many birth stories, I was already pregnant for so long, I was just like, I need to know if I have a whole other day of this. I don't want to hear a number but I want her to check me and at least tell me if my energy needs to be hunkered down, conserved, you're not that far, or is it okay, let's pick it up. You're almost there? I did want her to check me but I didn't want to hear a number. I just wanted her to give me a general frame of, “Here's where you need to be in your headspace with this information I've just received.” It was 7:00 AM maybe. She checked me. She was like, “Are you sure you don't want to hear a number?” I could just tell the way she asked that question. I was like, Okay, she knows I'm going to like the number I'm going to hear. I was like, “Okay, go ahead and tell me.” She was like, “You're an 8 and I can stretch you completely open very easily.” I was like, “What? Oh wow, this is amazing. Okay.” She was like, “I think all it's going to take is some different positions. We're going to do a circuit to get the baby's head lined up just a little bit more straight and that will open you up all the way if we just move the baby just a little bit.” I was like, “Okay, let's do it.” I did two circuits of excruciating positions. Side-lying was not the most fun thing I've ever done but I was very much just like, “Tell me what to do and I'll do it.” We did side-lying, knees to chest, and dip the hip where I was standing and I would swap and turn. I don't know how to explain the sensation, but it was probably just the baby moving through my pelvis. It was pretty intense. I did two circuits of that and I was just like, “I need to feel some comfort again and not do this circuit again.” So I was like, “I think I want to get in the birth pool.” I had the birth pool set up. I had tried to get in earlier in labor but got right back out. It was just not for me. I was like, “Maybe I'll try the birth pool.” I stepped in and was like, “Nope. I don't want to do that.” The second time now, this was around 11:30 AM. I was like, “I think I want to get in the pool.” I got in and I was like, “I'm not 100% sure but I kind of think I feel pushy.” It was just one of those things that in a lot of ways I felt like a first-time mom having this labor where I never had a pushing phase with the others. I was just sort of doubting myself a little bit, but the assistant was like, “Well, we can't tell you if you feel pushy.” I was like, “Okay. I know. I know.” Meagan: We can't tell you. Jolie: Yeah. Meagan: That's hilarious. Jolie: I was like, “Okay. Well, I'll just be in this for a few more contractions and see if whatever sensation I'm feeling stays or gets stronger. I think I'll be confident when I am ready to push or if it changes and whatever.” I just was trying to figure out again where I needed to be. So I did feel that pushing sensation and started to in the water. That was definitely such a switch in the way I was experiencing the sensations of labor because the contractions were painful to me, but when I started pushing, it was like relief and very relieving. I felt like, Oh, I'm doing something. This is different. I'm not just getting through this. I'm moving through it in a way where I have this sort of control over it. I really enjoyed pushing and I was in the tub and again, reclining on my back. I never thought I would be in this position for birth because it's usually the hospital stereotype of on your back on the bed but that's where I felt relief and got through transition on my bed so in the birth pool, that's actually how I pushed was kind of reclined back. I was just able to do it better that way. I had 5 minutes between each contraction so that was really nice because I ended up pushing for about 2 hours. That's kind of a long time. I think from start to finish my labor was 15 hours so it was those last 2. I never felt exhausted as in, I can't do this, but I do remember I wasn't really aware of the time. I knew it was Sunday afternoon. I got in the pool at 11:30 and my son was born at 2:05. I was pushing but I had those 5 minutes of breaks so I was able to doze off and float in the water. I genuinely enjoyed those 2 hours. It was just peaceful but I felt myself getting sort of impatient because I didn't know what time it was, but I was just like, Okay. The water is kind of cool. I know I've been in here for a while so I don't know. I really wish this was over now. So finally, there was a candid moment where I saw my midwife getting baby stuff together and I was just like, “Oh, what are you doing?” She was like, “You're pushing. I'm getting the baby stuff out. You're doing this. It's actually happening.” I was just like, “Oh wow. Okay. I guess so.” It was so funny. I don't know. I think there is just this part of where I was just so zoned into what I was doing and what I was feeling that I wasn't really processing it, Oh, this is happening. This is happening. As she told me, I could feel my baby's head and that was mind-blowing. Once I could reach out and feel his head, which we didn't know at the time it was a boy. We were waiting to find out. That definitely brought me into a sense of reality when I could feel the baby's head. It was just like, Whoa, okay. This is happening. There was a slight burn when his head crowned, but there was so much adrenaline when his body was coming out that I don't even really recall that being painful just kind of a burning sensation. His head crowned. I changed positions after his head was born. I was still in the water, but I sort of think I was on my back. I moved up a little bit onto my hands and knees and stayed in the water. My midwife ended up guiding his head and shoulders down and then his body came out. She handed him to me and I just remember knowing it was a boy even though I hadn't seen yet. I leaned back in the tub and I think what I said was just, “I've never held one of my babies after they were born before.” That feeling of an immediate, My baby came out and they are in my arms. That was just so surreal but at the same time it was almost so seamless and intuitive that I was just like, Okay. I just gave birth and it's just a normal day. Everybody around me– I think I had thought built it up in my mind to be this incredible experience which it was. I don't want to say, It wasn't all that, but in a way, birth is so natural and normal that after it happened, it was just like, I'm in my bed and the birds are chirping outside and the day is going on, where before I was in the hospital and it felt like this whole different world. It was interesting how there was an element that was sort of mundane about it but I like that. I don't know. It was just the normalcy of it all that shocked me if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. No, I really actually can totally relate. I remember after I had my VBAC after two C-section baby, I was at a birth center. I was in the bathroom on the floor when I gave birth and they were like, “All right, let's get you up and move you to the room.” I was like, “Okay.” I just remember going in there and laying down and starting to feed my baby and just looking around almost like, Did that really just happen? But at the same time, it was like, Yeah, it just happened and now I'm just feeding my baby. Jolie: Yeah, that was it. Meagan: It was so weird. It was so weird. There was a slight disconnect in my brain that what had just transpired transpired. Jolie: Yes. Meagan: So yeah. I really can relate to that so much. Then about how you were saying, “I was pushing for a really long time and I just looked over and realized my midwife was putting the baby stuff together and getting stuff ready,” and you were like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah.” I had that moment too where I was just laboring on the toilet and then all of a sudden, my midwife was just coming in here guiding me to the stool and I was like, Wait, what? She was like, “Let's come have a baby.” I'm like, “What, really?” I couldn't believe that what was happening was happening but I was so zoned into doing this birth, having this VBAC, and then all of a sudden, I realized I was doing that. I was actually doing that. Jolie: Yeah. I think when you have C-sections and when you have any sort of difficulties in your births, your mind clings onto those phrases that people say like, “Oh, your baby is too big. You're not going to open.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Jolie: It makes you feel like this miraculous thing must happen for me to give birth because it didn't work the other times so how in the world? Trumpets need to be blaring and some crazy thing has to happen for this to work but it doesn't and it was just like, Oh. That was it. Meagan: This is normal. Jolie: Yeah, the thing that didn't feel normal was actually the surgical births but the thing that felt normal was the VBAC so it was very interesting but after he came out, they were like, “That's a big baby.” He pooped twice before we got out of the tub like pretty big poops so then by the time my midwife weighed him, she knew that he had already pooped, but I think he weighed 10, 14 so she was like, “He totally was 11 pounds coming out. If I weighed him before he took those ginormous poops.” That was shocking and not expected at all. Meagan: Yeah girl! Jolie: That was really cool that it was not even a part of it because I didn't get any late-term ultrasounds. Looking back, people definitely kept asking me if I was having twins. They were like, “Wow. You look really big.” I just was like, “Ha, ha. I get it. I'm pregnant.” You know the things people say. I'm like, Maybe I actually did look larger than normal because this child could pass for two babies as twins. Yeah. He was almost 11 pounds. I did have one tear that I chose for her to not suture, but that was it. That was the birth. Meagan: Wow, and a surprise big baby. Think about how there are a lot of times in the provider's world of the hospital where they see someone who is a larger baby and they are wanting to do those third-trimester ultrasounds and growth scans and they are like, “What?” When really you didn't need any of those things, you just needed time. And a 43-week baby. I had one of my beginning doula clients and she was 43 weeks and 1 day as well. I mean, it was a 10-pound baby as well. It was 10,12 I think. That girl just powerhoused that baby out but she was getting pressure to get induced at 39 weeks. She was feeling all of that pressure. “Oh, your baby is looking big. You look so big. You are small. I don't know if this is going to be possible.” Then she switched at I think 41 weeks then she went to 43 and 1 and just had a beautiful, vaginal birth. I love that. Okay, so there are so many things. Something that I caught in your story was with your second midwife or with your second provider with your second baby. Everyone said, “This midwife, this midwife,” so you went with this midwife then you realized it wasn't the midwife for me. I think that is something that is important to note especially when we have our supportive provider list, right? We have this list and we're providing these names where people will rant and rave for days and days and days about some of these providers so you're like, Yeah, great. The whole community is going to this provider or whatever. Then you're in that situation and you just take that word for it, but then you get into that situation of birthing and you're realizing, Oh crap. This isn't right. There were red flags and I didn't recognize them because I was just going off of what everybody else said. I just think it's important to note that even though everybody or people might say this provider is the only provider or the best provider that it doesn't mean they are the best provider for you. It really comes back down to what that provider is looking like for you in your mind. Close your eyes. Envision your birth. Think about what they are saying, what they are doing, how they are caring for you. Think about the questions you want to ask them and go and really ask these people these questions that are really something for you. I love that you talked about that with your third midwife how you were like, “These are the qualities I was looking for.” It took you a while to find it but you found it. I love also that you pointed that out. Really you guys, I can't say it enough. Finding a provider when you are not pregnant is night and day from finding a provider when you are. Jolie: Yeah. There was no pressure. I felt like I could be so much more confident in saying no because I didn't feel like I had to say yes. Meagan: Yeah and honestly, our minds are in a different space. Even Dr. Fox a few episodes back talked about that how that is a really great thing to do because we are emotional. We feel pressure. There's time. Our baby is growing and each week matters to find that provider. It's a very different thing. It's a very different thing. Okay and then in your form, we talked about this a little bit before but you talked about radical responsibility and the word radical just stands out to me now because of our radical acceptance episodes that Julie and I have done. We've done two of them so if you guys haven't listened to those, go back and listen. There is a part one and a part two. How would you describe radical responsibility or finding radical responsibility to our audience? Jolie: Yeah. I think that it comes with a lot of coming face-to-face with some core beliefs because for me, when I was realizing was that we all day, “You are the one that cares the most about your baby and your body.” Okay. I think most people can agree that's true. But then how do you actually walk that out when you are pregnant? Because what can happen is you can be subconsciously deciding that this person over here is going to make sure I'm safe, is going to make sure my baby is safe, and is going to do all of these things for me when in reality, I believe that nobody outside of you can guarantee that safety. As a Christian, I believe that I don't even hold the keys to life and death. If that's what we're going to talk about, at the core of all of this stuff, people when they are pregnant, you want your baby after you are born and that's a thing. So that's kind of your basic line. I had to come to grips with even just the reality at its deepest core of, Okay. So if I'm pregnant and I have this baby growing inside of me and I want to birth this way for these reasons, I need to own this. If my midwife recommends I eat this way or do it. She's not going to come over and feed me. She's not going to text me everyday and ask if I took my supplements or went on a walk.That's goes into something else I'd like to mention if we have time of just handling all the things in birth. But with the responsibility aspect, it's hard to pin down but I think that it just boils down to realizing where you have control and where you don't have control and are you giving any control to someone else or are they just there to support you? There was an element where I was at where I wasn't wanting to do a free birth. I know there are very strong opinions for that or with unassisted– different terms and all of these things– but I did glean a lot from books I was reading about unassisted birth because I wanted to feel like I could make decisions with my midwife's support and not the other way around. It wasn't her making the decision and making sure I was on board with it. It was more like, This is what I want to do and I'm going to work with you because I did hire you and I actually hired you more for the essence of womanly support. Midwife means “with women” so I wanted this relationship. The relationship I cultivated with midwife was more of a sisterhood/friendship where I was like, “I need you in my birth. I hired you because I know you have incredible skills and I know that you can use these skills if something arises where I need to do something different in my birth, but more than that, I know that you know that you're not responsible for certain things and I'm not responsible for certain things but we are working together and you are there for me on an emotional level.” That was more important to me. Meagan: I love that. Jolie: Not everybody is going to be there for our births but I think if you're listening and that resonates with you like, I've taken some power and put it in other people or I'm holding my provider responsible for x, y, z at the end of the day, I would just work through that and base those thoughts and beliefs and see if you think there needs to be a change in your perception on responsibility and what we control or don't control. We have to surrender which is incredibly difficult. Meagan: Yes. It is but I love that you are talking about that. We have to walk in. We have to own it but we also have to work together. I like that you said, “I don't want her to have to convince me of this. I want to know what I'm talking about and work with her with this situation.” A lot of the time we have to do that with providers where we need to come in and work together and not be patient versus provider. It just needs to be a collaboration but at the same time, we have to take ownership into everything that we can. Okay, so we were talking about this and you mentioned that you wanted to talk about all the things. We talked about getting enough food, making sure we get the right supplements which we know here at The VBAC Link, I'm very passionate about getting the right supplements and then finding the right provider and figuring out what to do with the kids. There are so many things. Jolie: There are so many things. Yeah, I can talk about that for a minute because I think there are so many things that you can obsess over or shut down over. So one of the things that this goes into my tips of if you are going for a VBAC, here are some tips. A holistic approach– when I say holistic, I mean body, mind, and spirit. There are a lot of things we can do for our bodies when we are pregnant– the nutrition, the walks, the exercises, the Spinning Babies gymnastics. There are all of these body-focused things but you also need to be working on your mind and how you are doing in your mind which was huge for me. I found a birth course and worked with this incredible group of people. They are called Mind Change, but her birth course I think I sent you is called Transforming Birth. It's all about subconscious stuff and rewiring your brain to have different pathways for your birth. Anyway, that's my plug for that. But going into it, prepare your mind for birth. Actually think about what you do want and not what you don't want. Think about what you don't want. Have a plan. You need to have a plan for your provider. Of course, that's responsible. But put that away and spend the real-time immersing yourself in what you want it to look like. And then just your spirit. You could make a whole list of all the things you need to do, but the key is in how you approach it because I remember in one of my previous births, one of them that was a C-section, somebody had said one time– it might have just been on social media, “Oh, I went to the chiropractor every week for my birth and I got this wonderful, fast labor and I know it is because of the chiropractor.” I thought to myself, I went to the chiropractor every week. Why didn't I have a vaginal birth? It's not in the things. That's my main point which is so simple. You might hear that and be like, Duh. But it's in how you approach them. Going to the chiropractor regularly is great for your health but if you are doing it from a place of stress and control like, If I miss an appointment or if I don't hit 3 miles today, then actually, that's not helping you anymore and you should probably not do that and not go on that walk if you are feeling stressed out about having to go on the walk. Don't do it. Approach it from a place of peace and joy and acceptance going back to your radial acceptance. All of the things that can help you in your pregnancy are wonderful, but take them one at a time and make sure that when you're going on your walk, when you have your supplements, you're taking them from a place of peace and acceptance and then it can be helpful for you. One of the– I'll just share one small example of how I did this with my third pregnancy that I didn't really have this frame of mind with my previous two. There was a certain supplement. I can't remember what it was called. It was a combination of herbs that helped ripen your cervix. A lot of people recommend it for VBACs at the end. Meagan: Like Birth Prep? Jolie: It wasn't Birth Prep. It was 5 weeks or something. It had something to do with 5 or 7. There was a number in it and it's like a holistic supplement that has supportive herbs in it for ripening your cervix so I remember coming across this information while I was pregnant and just thinking, Okay. I looked it up. It was all sold out on line and I was like, I feel like in my mind I'm thinking I have to do this to get the VBAC. This is going to help me. If I don't get it, then what's going to happen?  I ended up talking to my midwife about it and she actually had some. She was like, “Oh yeah, I do love this supplement. I have some and they are all sold out right now.” I was like, “I'll take it. I'm going to let you know if I'm going to start taking it. Please ask me if I'm taking it out of a stressful, controlling way or if I'm taking it from a place of peace because depending on the way I answer, I need accountability to not actually do it,” because I wanted to be able to receive it in a way of support in general. That's what she told me. “It's not going to hurt you. They are wonderful herbs that will just strengthen and tone your uterus so you can take it,” but I knew I needed to be in a frame of mind where it wasn't like, this is going to be the thing. This is just a small example of how I embodied that reality of if this is going to stress me out, even if it's a good thing, I'm not going to do it. Meagan: Yeah, okay. I love that so much within our own community and other communities where it's like, You guys, I have 5 days to get this baby out or they're going to make me have a C-section, so then we have this stressful overreaction to do anything we can to get that baby out and actually what it's doing is creating more stress in our body which is not going to help our cervix. I love that message. I do not know what you're talking about exactly like what they used. Herbs are great, but I love that. Do things with intent and purpose. Don't do things out of fear or out of worry or out of pressure. Do things because you think they are right and because you think this is what you need to be doing, not because you're stressed about something. I'm just going to leave that right there because I love that message so much. Thank you so much again for sharing your stories and congrats on your HBAC after two C-sections. Jolie: Thank you, yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lauren has had three very different births. She had a peaceful C-section due to breech presentation with a difficult recovery, a wild, unmedicated VBAC, and a calm, medicated 2VBAC. Due to her baby's large size, she had to have an extra incision made during her Cesarean leaving her with a special J scar. Though her provider was hesitant to support a TOLAC with a special scar, Lauren advocated for herself by creating a special relationship with her OB and they were able to move forward together to help Lauren achieve both of her VBACs. Lauren talks about the importance of having an open mind toward interventions as she was firmly against many of the things that ended up making her second VBAC the most redemptive and healing experience of all. How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have our friend Lauren and her 11-day-old baby. Is that right? Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: 11 days old. You guys, I actually didn't even know that this baby existed until we popped up on the Zoom and she was holding this precious little newborn. She was like, “Surprise! I had another VBAC.” So we will be sharing, well she will be sharing her two VBACs so 2VBAC and something kind of unique about Lauren is that she has a special scar, a special J scar, correct? Lauren: Yep. Meagan: Yeah, so that happened in her first C-section. If you are listening and you have a special scar or have been told that you have a special scar, this is definitely an episode that you are going to want to put on repeat and save because I know that there are so many people out there who are told that they have a special scar and that they should never or can never VBAC again. I know we're not even getting into the story quite yet, Lauren, but did you have any flack with that? Did anyone talk about your special scar at all? Lauren: Yes. Advocating for the VBAC is probably the overarching theme of my VBAC because I really had to go to bat for myself for that without switching providers. Meagan: Yeah. We know that's so common. We see it a lot in our community just in general trying to get a VBAC let alone a VBAC with a special scar. We are going to get into her story but I have a review and I didn't even know that this was a review. It was left in a Baby Bump Canada group on Reddit actually so that was kind of fun to find. It's really nice. It says, “Seriously, I'm addicted. I find them so healing. I had an unplanned and very much unwanted C-section and I have been unknowingly carrying around all of these emotions and trauma about it since. I thought I was empowered going into my first birth, but I wasn't strong enough to stop the medical staff with all of their interventions. Don't get me wrong, I believe interventions are necessary in some instances. But looking back now, I realize those interventions were put in place to make things easier involved in delivering my baby. Anyway, I won't get into all of that here, maybe in a separate post. The point of my post is checking out The VBAC Link podcast. I listen to them all day now while caring for my babe. They also have a course you can take focusing on preparing for VBACs. Even if you just like birth stories, they have CBAC stories I believe as well. On the podcast, a guest also pointed out that what do you want for a VBAC birth– peace, redemption, etc.? She talked about how you can still feel those things if you need a Cesarean.” I love that point of view right there that you can still have peace and redemption even if you have a scheduled C-section or if your VBAC ends in a Cesarean. It says, “Another mom pointed out when she was feeling hesitant about saying okay to a C-section, her midwife said, ‘You have permission to get a C-section,' not in a way that a midwife was giving her permission, but telling this mom, ‘C-section is okay and you shouldn't feel like having one is wrong.' My baby is 8.5 months and we aren't going to try for a baby until they're about 18-24 months mostly to increase my chances of VBAC, but I really love these podcasts.” Then she says, “Okay, I'll stop raving now.” I love that. Her title is, “If you're considering a VBAC, I highly recommend The VBAC Link.” Thank you so much to– I don't actually know what your name is. Catasuperawesome on this Baby Bump Canada group. Just thank you so much for your review. As always, these reviews brighten our day here at The VBAC Link but most importantly, they help other Women of Strength find these stories like what we are going to be sharing today with Lauren's story. They help people feel empowered and educated and motivated and even first-time moms. They are really truly helping people learn how to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. Meagan: Okay, Lauren. As you are rocking your sweet, precious babe, I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories. Lauren: Awesome, thank you. It's so nice to be here finally. I'm so excited because this podcast truly is the reason why I had my VBAC. I am kind of weirdly unique in that I didn't really feel like I had any mothering instincts. My husband and I had been married for 6.5 years before we decided to get pregnant because I always swore off children. I said, “It's not for me. I'm never going to have children. I want to travel and I want to do all of these things and children are for other people. I can't imagine myself as a mom.” My husband said, “Well, let's wait until we are 30,” because we got married really young. He was like, “Let's just wait until we are 30 and we will revisit the discussion.” I always find it kind of nice when I hear stories of women who feel similarly to the way I did because it's so relatable and I feel like we are very few and far between. That's another reason I wanted to share my story because I know there are other women out there like me. So anyway, it just so happened that at this time, my sister was pregnant. My brother was pregnant. My husband's brother was pregnant. We were like, “You know, we're almost 30. We've waited a long time. If we're going to have kids, we might as well have a kid when he or she is going to have all of these cousins.” My husband was like, “Let's start trying.” I'm like, “Great. I'm going to give it two months and if we don't get pregnant, we're not going forward with this. I'm going to say I tried and I can tell everyone I tried and that it didn't work.” Well, God has a sense of humor because two weeks later, I had a positive pregnancy test. Meagan: Two weeks later? Lauren: Yes. Meagan: So you were already pregnant when you had this conversation. Lauren: I was already taking birth control. I was multiple days into the pack. I just threw it in the trash and was like, “Let's just see what happens.” I guess when you do that, you can get pregnant. I don't know. I didn't really have a cycle. I got pregnant. I was so naive about how it all worked. I'm like, “Okay. The test is positive. I'm pregnant. It is what it is. I'm very much pregnant.” I had not doubt. I had no worry about miscarriage, nothing because I had a positive pregnancy test. That's sort of how I went through my pregnancy, kind of disconnected, very naive, and a little bit in denial that I was actually pregnant all the way up until the end. I read one book and it was called The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy and it's this really sarcastic, funny book. She's very flippant about pregnancy and very straightforward with my sense of humor. I liked it because I felt the same way. I wasn't mushy or emotional. I had no connection to the pregnancy. I am pregnant. That's a fact. Anyway, at 26 weeks, my doctor was like, “You know, I think he's breech.” I was like, “Okay.” I knew what breech was, but I'm like, “Okay, what does that mean?” She was like, “Well, I would start doing some Spinning Babies exercises. Let's just keep an eye on it. I was going to a chiropractor this whole time. This is important for people to know. I was going to a chiropractor before I even got pregnant regularly. This chiropractor was seeing me. I told her that the baby was breech. “Can you help me flip him? Can we do some bodywork?” I continued to see her. I don't know if it was once or twice a week but it was often. 36 weeks rolls around and I see the midwife in the practice. She is not finding the heartbeat where it should be. She finds it up higher and she goes, “Lauren, I think your baby is still breech.” I thought there was no way. I had been seeing a chiropractor. I had been doing body work and stuff. She was like, “Well, why don't you go see the chiropractor that our practice recommends?” I'm like, “Okay.” I call this chiropractor on the phone. I leave her a message and I'm like, “I've been seeing another chiropractor, but my baby is breech.” She immediately called me right back and she was like, “What has the chiropractor been doing?” I'm like, “It feels like a normal adjustment like nothing different from before I was pregnant.” She was like, “So you've been on your side and she's been twisting your back and your pelvis away from each other?” You know how they do those kinds of adjustments? I said, “Yes.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” She's like, “How soon can you come see me?” I started seeing her. My OB actually also recommended moxibustion. She got me set up with an acupuncturist in the area which I thought was really cool that she was like, “Some people say they swear by this. You need to do more Spinning Babies. I want you to go to acupuncture.” I saw this chiropractor and she was like, “What that chiropractor is doing to you is not pregnancy-safe. She's not Webster-certified and you needed to be seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor.” That's one of my regrets because I feel like had I known, obviously, I can't say I blame her 100%. I was also working out a ton because I'm like, “I don't want this pregnancy to change my body. I'm going to be skinny.” That's all I cared about so I'm sure I was holding my abdominal muscles way too tight too. I'm sure I contributed to it as well, but just knowing that probably was a major contributor to what ended up happening to this day irritates me. But anyway, he never flipped. He was solidly in my ribcage. He never moved. I would push on his head and he would not even budge an inch. My doctor was like, “You know, I would normally recommend an ECV, but he seems very wedged in your rib cage. He's stargazing,” which means his head is tilted up. His chin is pointed up. She said, “You are on the low end of normal for amniotic fluid.” She was like, “You have these three strikes against you basically. We can try it if you want to try it, but I'm going to say it's probably not going to work.” I had to wrestle with that. I ended up calling my husband's aunt who is a labor and delivery nurse for 30 years. I asked her for her opinion. I'm like, “Have you ever been in on an ECV? Tell me about it.” Naively, I went with her advice. She said, “If your doctor is not confident, then that means it's not going to work.” She's like, “I've seen so many births and I believe that every baby should be delivered via C-section because birth is dangerous and it's scary.” I'm like, “Okay, okay. I'm just going to move forward with the C-section. I'm so glad I talked to you.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: We scheduled the C-section and you know what? It really wasn't that big of a deal. My friend's husband was actually my anesthesiologist. My doctor was there. It was very happy. It was very pleasant. I had gone out to dinner with my friends the night before. If you could plan the perfect C-section, it was the perfect C-section. I just talked to my friend's husband the whole time. Again, not connected to this pregnancy at all. It was very much like, “Okay, a baby is going to come out. What is this going to be like?” I remember the doctor held him up over the curtain. I made eye contact with him and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm a mom.” The nurse was like, “Do you want to do skin-to-skin?” I was like, “What's that? Sure.” “Do you want to breastfeed?” “I think so. Sure.” Very naive. What ended up happening was that the recovery was just really tough. The surgery was great, but I did not expect the recovery to be so tough. I feel like the way people speak of C-sections is so casual. “Oh, just have a C-section. I had C-sections for all my babies. It's no big deal. It's a cakewalk.” That's the mindset I went into it with. Same with my husband because I reassured him, “It's no big deal. We're just going with the flow.” No. It's awful. It's major surgery. I'm allergic to– I think a lot of people are– the duramorph that they put in the spinal so I had the most severe, horrible itching for 24 hours to the point that they basically overdosed me on Benadryl because I could not cope and my vitals were crashing. I was barely having any respiration. They had to shake me awake and put cold washcloths on my head. They were like, “Hello,” because I was having such a hard time with the itching. Not only that, but the pain. It's painful. In my surgery, backing up a little bit, the doctor said, “Wow. He's really wedged in there and he's a lot bigger than I expected. I thought he was going to be maybe 7.5-7.25 pounds.” She goes, “He tore your incision coming out because he was so big.” She was like, “You have a J incision now so your incision goes horizontal and then vertically up.” She said, “Unfortunately, that means you'll never be able to have a VBAC. You're just going to be a C-section mama.” I was just lying there like, “Whatever. You're asking me what skin-to-skin is and breastfeeding and no vaginal births.” It was just a lot of information to process and take in and make decisions about. He ended up being 9 pounds. He was a good-sized baby. Anyway, that was my c-section experience. I know I'm probably one of the lucky few who could say that their C-section was so peaceful, really no trauma from it. I just thought, “I'm fine with that.” I watched my sister have a failed TOLAC and it looked kind of traumatizing and she was still traumatized from it just a couple months before my C-section so I'm like, “It's fine. I'll just be a C-section mom, but that recovery was terrible so I'll have one more baby and that's it.” I'm not going to have any more kids. I don't want to experience that again. That was May 2019. Fast forward to COVID times. We were thinking about getting pregnant before my son turned one but COVID hit so we were like, “Let's just give it a couple of months and see what shakes up with this pandemic.” The world stopped. I'm in real estate so for a while, we weren't allowed to show any property or do anything so I just was sitting at home doing nothing. I remember one night, I was just sitting there doing a puzzle bored as heck and I'm like, “I'm going to go listen to a podcast while I do this.” My phone suggested The Birth Hour. I hope I'm allowed to say that. Meagan: I love The Birth Hour, yes. Lauren: I was scrolling through the episodes and there was one on VBAC. I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to listen to this.” The interviewee mentioned The VBAC Link so I was like, Okay, I should check that podcast out. I was like, Why am I even listening to this? This is so not my wheelhouse, childbirth. I still didn't care about it, but listening to these podcasts opened up a whole new world for me. I'm so glad I found it all before I got pregnant. I started listening to all of those podcasts then I think I found through your podcast. I don't think it was The Birth Hour. Someone mentioned Dr. Stu so I started listening to his podcast and man, that guy set fire. He had so much great information. I listened to every podcast pretty much that he had done, especially the ones on VBAC because he talks about VBAC a lot and just how it really shouldn't be a big deal or shouldn't make you high risk and all of that. At the time, he was still graciously reviewing people's op-reports for them and now he doesn't do that. I think you have to pay for it, but I emailed him. I reached out to him and I emailed him my op report and I just said, “If you could look at this, my provider told me I wasn't a VBAC candidate but I want your opinion.” He got right back to me and he was like, “There's no reason you can't have a VBAC. This scar is really not that big of a deal. Yes, it's a special scar, but it shouldn't take away from your opportunity to TOLAC.” I ended up getting pregnant in the fall of 2020 and I went to my first appointment and my OB was like, “What do you want to do for your birth this time?” I'm like, “Did she forget what she told me? She must have forgotten.” I was like, “I want a VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, I'll give you my VBAC consent form and we can talk about it as your pregnancy progresses.” I'm like, “Okay, cool.” I saw her again at 12 weeks and she was like, “I'm having some hesitations because you had such a big baby and your scar is not normal. I think we need to talk about this a little bit more but let's not worry abou tit now. We can put it off and worry about it later.” I was like, “Okay.” I was so bummed because I love my OB. Funny story, I met my OB when I was worked for a home design company called Pottery Barn and I met her one day just helping her buy pillows. I'm like, “What do you do for work?” She was like, “I'm an OB.” I'm like, “Cool. I need an OB.” I had just moved to the area so I just started seeing her. I think I was one of her first patients so she knew me. It wasn't like she was a friend and a provider I only saw once a year, but we always picked up where we left off. We had a good relationship. I really did not want to change providers. I don't want this to sound like I was being manipulative, but I was like, I'm just going to really lean into this good relationship we have and just try to win her over. As the pregnancy progressed, at the next appointment I think I saw a midwife. I talked to the midwife about the VBAC and my OB's opinion and she was like, “I've seen a lot of women VBAC with a J scar at my old practice. I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll talk to the doctor for you and hopefully, we can figure this out.” I was like, “Okay.” Then I want to say I went to my 20-week appointment and they told me, “Okay, your baby is gigantic.” They said, “He is going to be between 9 and 10 pounds,” because he was measuring two weeks ahead. They said, “But the other concern we have is that you have marginal cord insertion and that could make for a small baby.” I'm like, “Okay, so is he big, or is he small?” Clearly that marginal cord insertion is helping him not being 12 pounds? What are you trying to tell me? They're like, “Either way, we suggest that you come back at 32 weeks. We have concerns about his size. He might be a tiny peanut. He might be enormous.” I'm like, “I think I'm good. Thanks, but no thanks.” Thanks to you guys, you push advocation so much that I'm like, “This doesn't add up. You can't tell me that he's too big and too small. I'm just going to go with fundal height and palpation if my doctor has a concern, we'll come back.” I never scheduled that growth scan. I was very protective of this pregnancy. I didn't want any outside opinions. I was so afraid that if I went and had this growth scan, I would be pushed to do a C-section. I wanted an unmedicated birth. I was terrified of the hospital. I was listening to so many podcasts all day every day. It was like an obsession so then I told Meagan before we were recording is that I felt like I was almost idolizing the VBAC. It was all I could think about. It was all I could talk about and it became this unhealthy obsession. Right around 25-26 weeks, I decided to hire a doula and move forward with the VBAC. It didn't matter to me what the doctor said. Right around that time, I was having some hesitations. Just getting that pushback from my doctor and knowing he was big, I started to let the fear creep in. I told my husband, “You know what? Maybe we should just do a C-section. I think I'm overanalyzing this so much. I'm just going to push aside this research I have done because clearly I'm obsessed and it's consuming me.” Meagan: Yeah, which is easy to do. Just to let you know, it really is easy to let it consume you. Lauren: It totally is. I think that we have to take a step back sometimes, come back to reality, and if you let the information override your instincts which I think is really easy to do, I think you can get too wound up or too set on something that might not be meant for you. Speaking of instincts, that night, I still remember. I had told my husband, “I'm just going to have a C-section.” I went to bed and I had a dream. I was in the hospital in the dream and I was holding my baby and my dad walked in. I have a really great relationship with my parents but especially my dad. I love my dad. He comes in the room and he's like, “How did it go?” He was meeting the baby for the first time and I burst into tears in the dream. I said, “Dad, I didn't even give myself the opportunity to VBAC. I just went in for a C-section. I just have so much regret about it and what could have happened if I had tried to have a VBAC.” Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Lauren: Yes. It was so weird. I have never really had a dream like that before. I woke up and I was like, “There's my answer. I have to move forward with this.” Having that dream gave me this peace that there is the instinct I need to follow. Yes, I have all of this information that is consuming me, but it was like, Keep going. I hired a doula which I found through The VBAC Link Facebook page. I put it out there, “Does anyone know a doula in my area?” Julie commented and it happened to be her really good friend who had just moved back to my area. I called her and it turned out that we had mutual friends. We connected really fast. I think, like I said, it was about 26 weeks. I go to my OB again and we had more of a pow-wow like a back-and-forth on the VBAC option. She was like, “I'm just worried about it. A C-section is not that big of a deal. We could just tie your tubes and then you won't have pelvic floor issues.” False. I said, “I got a second opinion from another doctor.” I didn't say it was Dr. Stu. I didn't say it was some guy with a podcast in LA. I said, “I got a second opinion and I feel like I just want the opportunity.” We didn't really land on anything solid, but she got up to leave the room and she got to the door and she turns around. She came back over to me and she gave me this big hug. She said, “I don't want to disappoint you. I want you to be happy, but let's keep talking about this.” I was like, “Okay.” That gave me a little bit of reassurance that I was leaning into that relationship I had built with her over the years because it had been 6 or 7 years of seeing her. I would also bring her flowers. I would always try to talk to her about her life and making a social connection with someone. If you let your doctor intimidate you just from the standpoint of being a stranger, I feel like that can really change the course of your care. But if you try to get to know people, and that's not necessarily a manipulative thing, but I think it's important. It should be important in your relationship with your doctor. If you don't feel like you can connect with them, there is issue number one, but I really felt like I could connect with her. I leaned into that. I have a cookie business on the side. She loved my cookies. We just had some other things to talk about other than my healthcare and I feel like it set this foundation of mutual respect. What doctor comes over, gives you a hug, and tells you, “I want you to love your birth”? So fast forward again, I see her again the next time and she said, “Look. I brought your case to my team and because we support moms who have had two C-sections, we felt like your risk is similar to theirs and that it shouldn't risk you out of a TOLAC so I'm going to support you if this is what you want.” I had given her this analogy that I think was Julie's analogy. She said, “If you needed heart surgery and you were told that you had a 98% chance of success–” because I think my risk of rupture was 2% or maybe a little bit lower, maybe 1.5. I told her this. I'm like, “If you told me I needed heart surgery and I had a 98 or 99% chance of success, we would do it. There would be no question. I have this 1% risk of rupture. I'm coming to the hospital. What gives? I should at least be able to try.” The problem is, I'm sure some people are like, “Why didn't you just switch providers?” We have three hospitals in my area. One is 20 minutes from me and two are one hour away. One of them which is an hour away is the only place where I can VBAC and there isn't a VBAC ban. There is maybe a handful of providers who deliver there. I knew my provider was VBAC-supportive sort of. She had the most experience of a lot of the providers around me so that's why I didn't switch. I had very minimal options for care. I couldn't go to LA or I couldn't go somewhere further away. It would be a four-hour drive either way. We are in an isolated area. I felt like that was a huge win. We are set to go. I remember I told Katrina. Katrina was so happy for me, my doula. I just soldiered on. I started taking Dr. Christopher's Birth Prep at 36 weeks. I was doing my dates and I was really busy in real estate. That's part of my story. I was so busy working super hard and I was getting to the end of my pregnancy. At 38 weeks, I went in and I had clients lined up showings coming up. I was like, “I can't have a baby anytime soon.” I was talking to my provider about it. “Maybe at 40 weeks, we can talk about a membrane sweep or something. I have so much on my plate. I can't have a baby this week.” My husband is a firefighter and his shift that he was going to be taking off was starting maybe the following week. I'm like, “He's not even going to be home. He's going to be gone most of this week. This is a horrible week to have a baby.” I let her check my cervix because I'm like, “I want to see if my birth prep or my dates are doing anything.” At the same time, I still had this fear of, What if I do all of this work and I don't even dilate? That was kind of what happened with my sister so I had that fear in the back of my mind. She checks me and she was like, “You are 2 centimeters dilated, 50% effaced. You're going to make it to your due date no problem. We're not even going to talk about an induction until 41 weeks.” She was like, “I'm just not worried about it. He doesn't feel that big to me. He doesn't feel small. He doesn't feel too big. He feels like a great size.” I said, “I know. I feel really confident that he's going to be 8 pounds, 2 ounces.” I spoke that out. I said, “That's my gut feeling. I just have so much confidence and peace about this birth. I just know it's going to work out.” I go on my merry little way from that appointment. I'm walking around. We had gone down to the beach. We were walking around and I'm like, “Man, I'm so crampy. For some reason, that check made me so, so crampy.” This was 38 weeks exactly. We go back home and I have prodromal labor that night. I'm telling Katrina about it. She goes, “You know, I bet the check irritated your uterus.” The next day, I start having some bloody discharge. I'm like, “What is this? What does this mean?” I told Katrina and she said, “It could mean nothing. It could mean labor is coming soon. We'll just have to see.” I hadn't slept the whole night before. She was like, “You need to get a good night's sleep.” I had to show property all day. I met these clients for the first time. I showed four or five houses to them and meanwhile, I'm like, “Gosh, I'm so sore and tired and crampy.” I told them, “I'm very obviously pregnant, but my due date is not until the end of the month.” This was June 10th and my due date was June 23rd. I said, “We have time. If you need to see houses, it shouldn't be a big deal. I don't want my pregnancy to scare you away.”That night, I get home and I'm like, “I'm going to bed. It's 8:00. I'm going to bed. I'm going to take Benadryl and I'm going to get the best night's sleep.” They call me at 9:00 PM and they're like, “Lauren, we saw this house online. It's brand new on the market. We have to see it.” They lived a couple of hours away so I'm like, “I'll go and I'll Facetime you from the house. I'll go tomorrow.” Tomorrow being June 11th. I'm like, “We'll make it happen. I promise I will get you a showing on this house.”I texted Katrina and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. I feel so crampy and so sore. Something might be going on, but I have to work tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.” I wake up the next morning. It's now June 11th and I lose my mucus plug immediately first thing. There was some blood. It was basically bloody show. I told Katrina and she's like, “Okay, just keep me posted. I have a feeling he's going to come this weekend. It was a Friday. I'm like, “Well, he can't because my husband works Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I don't have time to have a baby.” We go to the showing. I'm finally alone without my toddler and my husband. I'm in the car and I'm like, “Man, my lower back hurts. It's just coming and going but nothing to write home about, just a little bit of cramping.” Of course, I never went into labor with my first so I did not know what to expect. I get to the showing and this house had a really steep staircase. I'm Facetiming my clients and I'm going up the stairs. It was probably at noon and I'm thinking to myself, Man, it's really hard to go up these stairs. Why do I feel so funny? I finish up the showing and they're like, “We want the house. This is the house for us.” I get back in the car. I'm getting all of their information. I'm talking to the other agent. I start the offer and I'm like, “I'm just going to drive home and get in my bed because I don't feel good. I'm just going to write this offer from my bed and everything will be fine.” I get home and I tell my husband at 2:30, “I'm just going to sit in our bed and get this offer sent off.” Mind you, I had a work event, a big awards event that night for my whole office and we were going to have to leave at 4:00 PM. My in-laws were going to come get my son and take him to sleep over. It's 2:30. I'm writing this offer and I'm like, “I don't feel good.” My partner calls me. I tell her, “Listen, I don't know if I'm in labor, but I don't feel well. Maybe I have a stomach bug. I'm going to write this offer. I'm going to give you my clients' information and I want you to take over for me a little bit. They know I'm really pregnant, but this could just be a sickness but either way if something happens, I want them to have the best care and be taken care of if we are going to send this offer off.” I send the offer off. It's 3:30 at this point. I close my computer and I'm waiting for them to DocuSign. I text my husband, “There's no way I'm going tonight. I don't feel well. Something is up. I'm not sure what.” He didn't see my text for a little while. He comes in the room at 4:00 and he starts to talk to me. I literally fall to the ground with my first contraction. I'm in active labor.I don't know it yet, but I'm in active labor. I'm just like, “It feels like there's a wave crashing in my body.” That was the best way I could describe it. I'm like, “I feel this building. It's an ebb and flow,” but it reminded me of playing in the waves as a kid because I grew up in Orange County at the beach and just that feeling of the waves hitting you when you are playing in the surf. I'm like, “This is really intense. What is going on?” I'm like, “I'm certain it's a stomach bug.” I told him, “I have gas or something.” I was just like, “I'm going to give myself an enema and this will all go away.” I did that and sitting down on the toilet, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” It made everything so much more intense. I texted Katrina, “Something is going on. I'm not really sure it is.” She's like, “Well, why don't you try timing some contractions for me and let me know?” I crawl into my closet. I can hear my son and my husband getting ready. My son was 2 so of course, 2-year-olds are not always behaving. I can hear them interacting. I crawl into my closet and I'm lying on the floor in the dark. The contractions are 3.5-4 minutes apart lasting a minute. I was like, “I'm still pretty sure this is a stomach thing that is happening every 3-4 minutes.” I call Katrina and I'm like, “I don't know. I think I'm in labor. This is the length of my contractions. It's probably just prodromal.” I had so much prodromal.She was like, “Um, it doesn't really sound like prodromal labor, but I'll let you just figure it out. You let me know when you are ready for support. Make sure you are eating anything. Have you eaten anything today?” “No.” “Have you had any water?” “Not really.” “Okay. Please eat something. Please drink some water and keep me posted.” She goes, “Can you talk through the contractions?” I said, “I can cry.” She's like, “Okay. I'm ready to go as soon as you tell me.” Then the next thing I know, literally, this is probably an hour later so at 4:00 I had my first contraction. Now it's 5:00 and I'm like, “The contractions are 3 minutes apart and lasting a minute.” I said, “Maybe you should come over. I think Sean (my husband) is getting a little nervous.” We were still so naive. We didn't know what labor looked like and what was going on. We were like, “If we're not going to the event, why don't we just keep August (my son) at home? I'll just make him dinner and I'm going to make you dinner.” He starts prepping dinner and I'm like, “I don't think either of us really know what's going on.” Of course, Katrina knew what was going on and probably thought I was a crazy person but I was very much in denial. We texted her to come over and she gets there. I'm lying in my bed and she's like, “Okay, yeah. They're coming 2.5-3 minutes apart. If you're ready to go to the hospital, I'm ready to go with you.” I'm mooing through these contractions, vocalizing everything. I'm like, “It just feels good to vocalize and I just really keep having to use the bathroom. It's probably just my stomach.” She's like, “No.” I can hear her outside my bathroom telling my husband, “I think we should go. She's really vocalizing a lot and that usually means it's pretty substantial, active labor.” Meanwhile, all I can think about is, “I've got to get this offer in for my clients.” I'm waiting on DocuSign, checking my email. Finally, it comes through. This is 6:00, maybe 6:30. I see it come in. I send it off and I'm standing at my kitchen counter with my computer on, mooing, doing this freaking offer. I go to cross my legs as I'm leaning over and I'm like, “I can't cross my legs, Katrina. I feel like my bones are separating.” She's like, “Yeah, baby is probably descending into your pelvis. I think we should get going if you're okay with going.” We have a 45 to an hour drive depending on traffic and the time of day. It's a Friday night so basically where I live, there's not a ton of traffic but we get in the car. She's following us and we get to the hospital. It's probably 7:15-7:30 or something like that. I'm telling my husband as I'm mooing through these contractions, “This really isn't that bad. If this is labor, it's intense and it feels like there's an earthquake in my body, but I would not tell you that I'm in any pain right now.” He's like, “Okay, whatever you say lady.” We ended up having to walk across the whole hospital parking lot to the ER because the regular hospital entrance was closed. As soon as we walked in the hospital, the hormones changed. The adrenaline kicks in. I start feeling pain. I start feeling a little bit panicky and it starts getting harder to cope through these contractions. I'm on the floor of the triage room crying into a trash can and everyone is staring at me. Katrina's like, “They need to stop staring!” She was trying to defend me while my husband is answering all of their dumb questions like, “What's your favorite color? What city is your mom born in?” They're like, “Let's just put you in a wheelchair and get you up there.” I'm like, “I can't sit.” Anytime I tried to sit, the contractions were a minute apart and they were so intense. I get there and I was so protective of this birth and outside interventions, I just was like, “Everything is evil. Cervical checks are evil. The epidural is evil. Everything is going to make me have a C-section.” I was like, “I don't want to know how dilated I am. I don't want anyone in this room to know except the nurse. That's who is allowed to know how dilated I am.” She checks me and the doctor comes in. It was the hospitalist and of all the providers in my area, it was miraculous that I got this hospitalist because he has so much experience. He is so calm, so kind, so supportive. He just said, “Hi, Lauren. I'm Dr. so-and-so and you're in labor. Happy laboring.” No concerns about my TOLAC, nothing. He didn't even bring it up. He didn't ask to check, nothing. Just, “Happy laboring,” and he left the room. I'm like, “Okay. Clearly I'm in active labor.” So then they were getting the tub ready because my room had a tub and as we were waiting for it to warm up, I'm sitting on the ball. I'm having all this bloody show. The nurse asked to check me again before I get in the tub. Unknowingly, I had been 5 centimeters when we arrived. I was 7 now when we got in the tub an hour later. I get in the tub and I wouldn't say it provided me any relief. Honestly, I was so in my head and not necessarily in pain, just so mentally unaware of everything going on, in labor land, but also very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. I told Katrina, “George Washington could have been sitting in the corner watching me labor. I would not have known.” I barely opened my eyes. I had a nurse who was there sitting with us because I had to have a one-on-one nurse for being high-risk and I had to have continuous fetal monitoring. Because I was in the water, she needed to sit there and make sure the monitors didn't move. I couldn't have told you what she looked like, nothing. I didn't speak to her. I was in another world. I think I maybe was in the tub for 30 minutes to an hour. It's probably 9:00 or 10:00. I can't even remember the timeline of it but it wasn't that long of a labor. My water breaks and I start grunting. They're like, “Let's get you out of the tub. Let's get you out of the tub.” I think I was 9 centimeters at this point. We arrived at 7:30. This is probably 10:00 PM or something like that. I'm like, “Okay. I'm just going to lean over the back of this bed and just moo and make noises.” Me being who I am and not super emotional, I'm making jokes about how I sound. I'm like, “You guys, I sound like Dory in Finding Nemo. I'm so embarrassed. Please don't look at my butthole.” I was naked. I'm making all these jokes and coping, I would say pretty well in terms of pain but just very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. They come in and check me and they're like, “Okay, you're complete.” This is at 11:00 PM maybe or 10:30, something like that. But she was like, “You have a little bit of a cervical lip.” It was a provider I hadn't met before at my OB's office but they were like, “We will just let you do your thing. You sound pushy but please don't push because you have a lip. Let's just let him descend.” I could feel his head inside of myself. I could feel his head coming down. I was like, “I want it to be over. I want it to be over.” I'm still in denial of this whole thing this entire time. Are we sure it's not poop? I know there's a baby coming out. Once my water broke, I'm like, “Okay, I guess I'm having a baby.” That was really, truly the first time that I was like, “Okay, this is really happening.”Maybe 30 minutes later, the hospitalist peeks his head in the room and he's like, “Lauren, why don't you try laying on your side?” I tried and it was too painful. I flip over on my back and three pushes later, he comes flopping out. I screamed him out and it was super painful. I was so overwhelmed by how painful it was. I just screamed like a crazy, wild woman. He's on my chest and he's screaming and I'm in all this pain and then she's like, “I've got to give you lidocaine. You tore a little bit. I'm going to stitch you up.” It was just all this pain happening at once, but I was like, “I got my VBAC. That's all that matters. No one touched me and I got my VBAC. I don't care about anything else.” Anyway, it was great. I would not change it for the world because I never had a ton of pain. I never really thought I needed an epidural, but it was a little bit mentally overwhelming. Meagan: Mhmm, sure. Lauren: Anyway, that was my first VBAC. The doctor said, “You pushed so primally. That was the most amazing thing I've ever seen.” The hospitalist was like, “That was incredible to watch. You are a badass.” I was like, “That was such a compliment because I didn't know what I was doing and you're this doctor with all the experience.” Anyway, fast forward to my third pregnancy. This is now the summer of 2023. We decide we're going to have one more baby. I of course had no issues with the VBAC this time because I had a successful TOLAC with my second. I made it to 20 weeks. I had COVID, RSV, and the flu all right around then so they were telling me, “Your baby is measuring totally normal.” I'm like, “Yeah, because I've been sick as a dog for 6 weeks.” I'm like, “Maybe I'm going to get this newborn who is a normal size,” because my son was born at 38 and 2, the second one, and he was 8 pounds, 3 ounces. I had told my doctor 8 pounds, 2 ounces. I was one ounce off. I was like, “Maybe I'll get this little peanut baby and it's going to be so great. I'll finally have a newborn who fits in a diaper for more than two days.” Then I hit 33 weeks and I got huge. I just exploded inside. I go to my OB and I'm like, “I don't feel good. I'm too big. This baby is too big. Something is wrong.” She's like, “No, Lauren. I really just think you make big babies and he just went through a growth spurt. Let's not worry. I'm not going to have you do an ultrasound or anything like that. If he continues to measure 2-3 weeks ahead,” because I was measuring 36 weeks at 33 weeks, “then we can talk about it, but I don't want to worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” I was having all of this round ligament pain more than I had with my others and prodromal labor was so painful. I remember telling Katrina who I hired again, “I feel like something is wrong with my muscles. I just am so uncomfortable. But I don't want to make any rash decisions based on it. I might get an epidural if this keeps up because this doesn't feel normal. “She was like, “Okay, whatever works.” So I get to my 38-week appointment and I'm thinking, I'm going to have this baby at 38 weeks just like I had my second baby. I had everything ready. Everything was good to go at my house and then day by day, it ticks on. Baby is not coming. Baby is not coming. I was due April 6th. This was just this year, 2024. I get to 38 weeks. I tell my doctor, “Just strip my membranes. I don't even care.” She was like, “Okay, I guess if that's what you want.” She did. Nothing happened. 39 weeks rolls around. She strips my membranes again. Nothing really happens and then the night of Easter, I had this strange experience where I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this contraction that wouldn't end. I couldn't feel the baby move and it freaked me out. I did everything I could to get him to move. I was in the shower. I was eating. I was drinking and doing all of these things. Finally, I called Katrina at 2:00 in the morning. I'm like, “My baby's dead. I'm 100% sure he's gone. What do I do?” She's like, “Lauren, just relax. Lie on your side and drink something sweet.” We were ready to go to the hospital. I remember we had a stethoscope. I got the stethoscope and I put it right where I knew his heartbeat was and I heard a heartbeat. I burst into tears. It was the first time I've ever cried with any of my babies even being put on my chest. I just felt this relief because I had so much anxiety about him with my size being so big and the pain I was having. I was like, “I just want this baby out.” I never really felt that way, but it was this desperate anxiety. A couple of days passed and I'm now in week 39. I'm like, “My uterus is silent like a little church mouse. She's not doing a thing. She's not cramping. She's not contracting. No discharge, nothing.” I'm like, “This baby is never going to come.” I tell my doctor at my 39-week appointment, “If this baby hasn't come by Friday, I'm back here and I want another membrane sweep.” I felt kind of crazy because I'm like, “This is technically an induction, like a natural and I'm intervening.” Me who never wanted anyone to touch me and now I'm like, “Please touch me and pull this baby out of my body.” She goes to check me and she's like, “Lauren, I think he's coming tonight. Your body contracted around my hand when I tried to sweep you. I just wouldn't be surprised. Don't worry.” I'm like, “Okay, well you're breaking my water on Monday.” I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and I'm like, “We're waiting until Monday but I want you to break my water because I'm over it.” She's like, “That's a good idea. Let's threaten this baby and he'll come right out.” This was early in the morning on Friday, the 5th. Anyway, I had all of this anxiety and I just felt like he needed to come out. I couldn't get any peace until I knew he was alive and happy and healthy and on my chest. Friday afternoon, I felt crampy just a little bit the whole day and then at 4:30 PM, I feel this gush and I'm like, “Okay. Is that my water or is it my pee?” because his head felt like it was on my bladder. I didn't say anything to anyone. Then 6:00 rolls around. I text Katrina. I'm like, “Listen, I felt a little gush and I keep feeling it. I put a pad on and it doesn't seem to be urine. I'm not really sure what's happening. I'm just going to do some Miles Circuit and I'll update you.”At 7:30, I'm cleaning my kitchen and all of a sudden, I'm hit with an active labor contraction. I'm like, “Not again. I want labor to start normally so I know what's happening.” No. Baby's like, “I'm ready.” At 7:30, I tell her, “Okay, I'm feeling contractions. I'm getting in the shower to see if it will stop. It might be prodromal. Let's give it an hour. I'm going to text you, but they are 2.5 minutes apart.” She's like, “I'm at dinner. I'm getting boxes. Just let me know.” I was like, “Okay. It might stop though so I wouldn't worry about it.” No, it did not stop. She gets to my house at 9:00 and my car is already running. I'm like, “We're going.” I am mooing through these contractions. I'm going to pop this baby out right now. I had thankfully put some chux pads in the back of my car. I'm on all fours in the back of my car. Mind you, we have to drive an hour to the hospital. I peed all over the chux pad. I just was like, “He's on my bladder. He's on my bladder.” It was so painful and I couldn't control anything. I'm like, “Is this water? Is this pee? I don't even know what's happening.” We get to the hospital. He did not come in the car, thank God, but we did have to go to the ER again and the ER was taking forever. It took a half hour to get me up to labor and delivery as I'm actively mooing in front of the hospital. I was like, “I'm not going in,” because there was a little girl sitting in the waiting room and some convict sitting with a police officer. I'm like, “I'm not having my labor in front of these people!” Even the police officer came out and he was like, “I don't understand what is taking so long. You are clearly about to have this baby. I will bust open these doors for you and walk you up to L&D myself if that's what it takes.” Finally, they got me up there. I arrived. I told Katrina and my husband, “You guys, I'm getting an epidural.” I said, “I have had so much anxiety and so much pain. This does not feel like my previous labor. This feels like I'm suffering.” I said, “I just want to smile. I just want to smile. I want to smile this baby out.” We get up there. I'm 8 centimters dilated. This was the part of the story that I feel like it comes back to advocating for myself. I go in there and I'm like, “I don't care what you need from me. I just need the epidural and stat.” The nurses are scrambling and this doctor walks in. I am on all fours on the bed just staring at the ground, actively transitioning. I see this doctor walk in. I see his feet and he had his shoelaces untied. Immediately, I'm just like, “No. It's a no.” I don't know why. I just was like, “Your shoes are dirty and they are untied. You seem like a hot mess. I'm already a hot mess. I want someone to come in and just be like clean-cut and normal.” He starts asking me all these questions. He's asking me my whole health history, everything about my grandparents, my parents, all of this stuff. I'm in transition then he goes, “You're aware of the risk of TOLAC, right?” I said, “Yes.” He goes, “That your uterus could burst wide open?” I literally saw red. I'm in a contraction and I just screamed like a wild lady. I was like, “Get out.” I wanted to add on some expletives and tell him to get out of the room. I just said, “Get food.” He was like, “I'm  just saying.” He ended up leaving and my nurse peeks her head under. I look over and I see this nurse peeking her head right into my face and it's the same nurse who was there with my first VBAC. She goes, “You don't have to accept care from him.” She goes, “Your doctor is actually the backup on-call doctor tonight.” She goes, “If you refuse care, we can call her and she can come in.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a miracle.” We get the epidural. I'm like, “We've got to slow this thing down. I don't want to have this baby and have this crazy man who I cannot stand anywhere near my body parts, anywhere in this room.” We get the epidural and everything slowed down. I labored down. My doctor ended up coming in and she checked me. She was like, “Your bag is bulging. It feels like rubber. It's so thick.” She was like, “I think that's why he's not coming out.” We got to the hospital at 9:30-9:45. By the time we got in the room, 11:00 by the time I got the epidural, and the anesthesiologist was like, “You're going to have this baby in 30 minutes. I'm certain of it.” To slow it down, I'm closing my legs and doing all of these things to slow it down.My doctor comes in. She breaks my water and fluid goes everywhere. It floods the floor. She goes, “I don't remember any time I've ever seen this much water come out of someone without polyhydramnios. Maybe you had it. I don't know but this is an insane amount of water.” She breaks my water and then my epidural was a pretty low dose because he thought I was having the baby in 30 minutes. It's now 2:30 in the morning and I haven't had the baby yet. I'm getting up on my knees. I'm leaning over the back of the bed and I feel him descending. Then my doctor comes in an hour later and she's like, “Let's get this baby out.” It was 3:30 in the morning and she's like, “Let's go.” She feels me. She's like, “You're complete. I feel his head right here. You just need to push and you can't feel that his head is right here.” So I just get on my back, in lithotomy with the freaking stirrups like I said I would never do with the epidural I said I would never get and I pushed him out in three pushes. He was 9 pounds, 7 ounces. I am so glad I got that epidural. No regrets there because that's a really freaking huge baby. His head was in the 100th percentile or something like gigantic. I tore a little bit again, but I feel like the tradeoff was this peaceful, happy birth. I was making jokes. I had this nurse that I loved and knew. I had my doctor I loved and knew. I had Katrina and I had my husband who were the only people in the room and we laughed our way into this birth. I laughed my baby out basically. I was making jokes the whole time and I just had this peaceful experience. I told my husband, “I know I railed on the epidural my whole pregnancy and I said I would never get it,” but it's a tool ultimately. It's a tool. If you use it wisely, I was very far along. I said, “I don't think it's going to stop my labor.” I felt really confident in my decision. I didn't feel like anything was pushed on me. I made the decision. I'm happy I did it that way. Would I do it again that way? I don't know. I think with every birth, you should be open-minded to the possibilities and your needs. I hear so many stories where women are like, “And then I got the epidural. I had to.” I'm like, “It's okay. Own that decision. You're no worse off for getting it and it doesn't make you any less of a mom or any less of a good person for getting it. It's okay to not feel every single pain of labor if it's overclouding your ability to be in the moment.” Meagan: Yeah.Lauren: So anyway, that was my second VBAC story. Honestly, it was so redemptive because there was no trauma from the pain of having this wild, chaotic, primal birth. It was just peaceful and happy with all of the people. If I could have dreamt up a list of people who could have been with me, that's who it would have been. Meagan: Good. Oh, I love that you pointed that out. Well, I am so happy for you. Congrats again, 11 days ago and right now I want to thank you again so much for sharing your story. Lauren: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

During her first labor, Emily experienced a hyperactive uterus where she had constant squeezing with no breaks and minimal dilation. She was at a birth center but after exhausting all coping options decided to transfer to the hospital. After receiving an epidural and Pitocin, then detecting meconium, Emily was ready to consent to a Cesarean. Emily's second birth was a planned Cesarean, then her third and fourth births were both VBACs. Emily describes how even though her provider was the same for both vaginal deliveries, her experiences were so different. With her third, Emily had a beautiful pushing stage and easy recovery. However, pushing with her fourth felt rushed and she experienced a fourth-degree tear. Meagan and Emily share the importance of making your preferences known in every aspect of labor and delivery so your support team can speak up when you are not able to. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a 2VBA2C story for you today. We were just talking about it before we started recording all of the acronyms. I was like, “Oh, you're a VBAC after two C-sections story.” And your baby is 8– wait, did I see that right? 8 months? Emily: He's 9 months now. Meagan: 9 months. Emily: He's almost a year. 8 months, 9 months, 10 months, somewhere around there. Meagan: Still very little, still very fresh so I'm excited for you to share his story and your other babies' stories. We have Emily by the way. This is Emily. Hello, Emily. Emily: Hi. Meagan: Remind me. Where are you located? Emily: I'm in Texas. Meagan: Okay, you're in Texas. Awesome. Okay you guys, we're going to share her stories. We do have a Review of the Week so I want to hurry and get into that and then we'll jump into Emily's stories. This Review is from Rachel and it says, “Thanks for giving me the confidence to have a VBAC. I am glad I found this amazing podcast when I was newly pregnant with baby number two. After a long, traumatic experience that ended in a C-section, I was cautiously hopeful that I would have a VBAC. Using information that I learned from hearing other people's stories on The VBAC Link, I felt confident and prepared for the birth of my son. On October 9, 2020” so that was four years ago, “I had a beautifully redemptive VBAC and welcomed our boy into the world. Thank you so much for helping me achieve my dream.” Women of Strength, that review is for you. You and your stories and your participation in the community and on Instagram and all the places is seriously what builds this community up and helps these other Women of Strength find the courage just like she said and find the education.I'm so excited for you, Rachel. Congrats and as always, if you have time to leave a review, please do so. It helps other Women of Strength find stories. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Emily. Let's get into this. So you have four babies now. Emily: Yes. My oldest is about to be 7 and my youngest is 8 months or so. Meagan: Okay, so you were having your first C-section as I was pregnant with my VBA2C baby. Emily: Yeah, it was 2017. Meagan: When you had him? Emily: When I had her. I had three girls and then my youngest is a boy. Meagan: Yes. My VBA2C was in 2016 so just right before, yeah. Awesome. Okay, well I'm going to turn the time over to you. Emily: Sure. So my first pregnancy, I actually found out I was pregnant on my honeymoon when we were in Mexico. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Emily: Yeah. I was stressed out and working out a bunch and all of this planning the wedding. I expected my period to come while we were there so I'm like, “Oh, it's going to be the worst. I have all of these white clothes and I'm going to be on the beach and I'm going to have my period.” It just didn't come so it was right at the start of our honeymoon. I was like, “Let's take a test. I don't want to be drinking margaritas for the rest of the week,” then of course, I was. We came back from the honeymoon with another big announcement. I feel like a lot of people's stories is that you didn't know any better and you just showed up at the hospital and you did what the doctor said. I was the exact opposite at that point. I was reading all of the things. I read the Ina May book. I had a midwife at a birth center and I was going to the chiropractor constantly. I was doing all of the things to be ready to give birth at the birth center without medication and all of that. That's just not how it ended up. I think I was around 36 weeks and she was breech. I was going to the chiropractor all of the time trying to get her to turn. I was doing Spinning Babies. I was doing acupuncture. I was going upside down all of the time. I was finding swimming pools to do handstands and all of the things. I did moxibustion where you smoke–Meagan: Uh-huh, on your Bladder 6. Emily: She was still breech so my midwife set me up with the breech guy. People come to him from all over to do breech vaginal deliveries so I started seeing him. This was when we were living in Houston so I started seeing him and we did all of the things to try and get her to turn and ended up having a version. I went in. I had an epidural. They manually turned her and then afterward, they were monitoring me in the room and the nurses were like, “Okay, well do you want to be induced now?” I was like, “Nope. I've got a plan. I'm going home.” So I left the hospital after that. She stayed head down and then I went to 42 weeks and at about 42 weeks, I went into labor but my labor was weird. I was getting contractions but there was no break between them. It was just constant, squeezing pressure. I was texting my midwife asking, “I don't know what to do. I can't time them. There is no in-between.” It was mostly my back and after, I think it was 3 hours and I was like, “I can't do this. This is too weird.” I didn't have any guidance for what to do if you're not able to– they weren't broken up at all. Meagan: Were you dehydrated at all? Emily: No, I don't think so. I'm not sure. We finally went into the birthing center and it stayed that way for a really long time. We were there throughout the night. I was on a birthing ball and my husband was just elbow into my back for hours. I couldn't sleep because it was just constant pain. I tried the Rebozo scarf. We did all kinds of things while I was there. I will say though, I should have had a doula because my midwife kind of just left the room and was gone. She was somewhere in the center probably sleeping. I don't know. She would come in every once in a while and we were really just left to our own devices in there. We had done I think it was a six-week class. We went in every week trying to prepare. Yeah, we were just in this room together in the middle of the night really tired and in a lot of pain not knowing what to do to get this going. At one point, I was on an IV. She had given me all of the pain stuff that they can give you. At one point, she was like, “I've done all of my–” I wish I could remember. Meagan: I've exhausted all my tools type thing. Emily: Yeah, I've given you as many doses as I can in a time period. We did the catheter. That came out at some point. I think it was Monday when I went in there and then Wednesday when I ended up leaving there. At one point, she was checking to see. She was looking at my cervix and my water broke. There was a bunch of meconium and it was green crazy. She just looked at me and was like, “I think it's probably time for you to go.” I got back in the car in rush-hour traffic in Houston and headed to the hospital. There was a nurse in the back seat with me holding my IV bag. My husband drove us there. She had called the doctor who did my version so I had already met him and known him and known that he was pretty progressive as well doing breech vaginal deliveries and I know he did breech twin deliveries. He was a very cool guy so I felt good about that. We went. He was like, “All right. Let's do an epidural. You can sleep. You can relax and all these things.” That's what we did. I think I had the epidural for 8 hours and I was at 6 centimeters. They were like, “Okay, what about Pitocin?” I feel like they did give me a lot of time and I hate the saying “give me” but they gave me a lot of time and by the end of it, I was exhausted. I was done and ready to get her out. I only made it to 6 centimeters after all of that. It was 3 days of labor. By that time, just get her out of there. She was almost 10 pounds. She was big. Yeah. The C-section, that all went fine. I found recovery to be especially hard. My body was already so tired. Meagan: Exhausted. Emily: Exhausted. I wasn't prepared for it. I didn't expect it to be as painful as it was, but yeah. I know some people kind of just pop right up after and are moving around. That was not my experience. That was my first. I feel like I had 10 experiences in one. I did the midwife birth center thing. They tried to get my labor going with an epidural. I had already been there for an epidural once so by the time I was getting the second one, it was whatever, and then the C-section also all in that one pregnancy. Yeah. I feel like it was three births in one.But yeah, then we got pregnant with my second. I talked to my midwife again. She was like, “I don't do VBACs,” so the first person I called was the guy who did my C-section and my version. I said, “I want to do a VBAC.” He was like, “All right.” He was very cool about it and awesome. It was another really easy pregnancy. I got to the end. I was 41 weeks. Meagan: So you carry longer. Emily: Yes. I was 41 weeks with her and I went in for an appointment and they did a sonogram and I was like, “Please can you check my cervix? I just have to know where I'm at.” Yeah, I hadn't dilated at all and he was like, “Well, your sonogram's estimating that she's going to be 10 pounds also.” My mom had been in town at that point. They were trying to be there for the birth and helping me with my toddler and she had to leave the next day because my sister was being induced in Dallas. She had been staying with me for that whole last two weeks and it was like a now or never she's going to be gone. I'm already 41 weeks. I was also teaching and so every day, I was walking into work so pregnant. 1000 comments like, “You're still here? You're still pregnant?” It just felt like I was sick of it. Then hearing the 10 pounds, I was like, “All right. Let's just have a C-section I guess.” He left that up to me. I feel like he would have if I said. He wasn't even doing cervical checks at that point. It was me who asked for it. He left it up to me and he agreed when I said, “Okay. I guess we'll just do a C-section.” That one was different because it was scheduled. We went in the next morning. It was easy, breezy, and a little bit better of a recovery since I wasn't already so exhausted at that point. But yeah. I had a newborn and a toddler and a C-section again. It was rough. It kept opening because I was picking up my toddler. I went back to work I think when my second was six weeks old. Yeah. It was a lot. Those were my first two C-sections. Very different experiences for both of them with the same doctor. Then COVID happened and I finished the school year teaching online when COVID happened and my husband was working in oil and gas. We decided we were going to move to my parents' ranch. I finished the school year online from there and he was working with my dad. My dad does custom home building so that was something he wanted to get into. It was kind of the perfect segue out of there. Meagan: Mhmm. So where were your first two babies born? Emily: Houston. Meagan: In Houston. For people who are interested in breech, are you willing to share that provider's name? Emily: Yes. His name is Dr. Alfredo Gei. Meagan: Okay. Emily: Yeah. I mean, he was great. I don't know if he's still working or not down there, but he was awesome. He was a very, very cool guy. He was very calm, very respectful, friendly, and all of the things. Meagan: Yeah. Yes, good. Emily: Yeah. We moved up to my parents' ranch in Glen Rose, Texas. I finished the school year online. I decided I would stay home with my two kids. I think by the end of that summer, we were ready to have our third. It was perfect timing. I was staying home. We had my parents there. My husband had an easier work obligation working with my dad and all of that so I got pregnant with my third. That pregnancy was wild. We had a lot going on. I guess it was my first experience having a pregnancy that didn't go super smoothly and whatever test and all of the normal things you do like blood testing if you choose to do that. Everything came back weird so I'd have to go in and retest. I think at one point in the beginning, they thought she might have Down Syndrome so it was like, “Well, you can do the amnio to find out or you can wait until that anatomy scan.” I spent that time just waiting until 20 weeks to find out if she had Down Syndrome or not. I tried to do the gender test, one of those home ones. My first two were a surprise and with her, I just wanted to know. I needed something. I wanted to know what was going on in there. We did one of those gender tests and it came back inconclusive. Whatever could go wrong was going wrong with the pregnancy. I had found an OB/GYN who was VBAC-friendly who worked with a group of midwives so it was him and a bunch of midwives. I started seeing him and them because I thought– oh, I didn't even mention. When I had my second baby, they predicted her to be 10 pounds. She was 7 pounds. It made me so mad. It made me so mad. Meagan: Okay, so now I have a question for you because we talk about third-trimester ultrasounds. At 41 weeks, that is normal because they do non-stress tests and all of those things. Would you have chosen a different situation or would the scenario be the same because of your mom and convenience and all of that? Emily: That's a good question. I would like to say that I would have at least given myself a couple more days at that point, just a couple more days to see maybe. I always think, What if I had gone into labor in that next couple of days instead of the C-section? Would she have come out easier being 7 pounds and not 10 pounds? Of course, I thought, Maybe it's my pelvis. Big baby, small pelvis, and all of these things. I don't know. It's hard to say. I was really ready to have her. Meagan: Absolutely and you were given an opportunity. That goes to speak where you are in your pregnancy. That's a vulnerable state. That's a very vulnerable state. But you had her and it was an okay C-section and your mom was there and all sorts of things. Emily: Yeah. She came out and then they brought me back to the room and my mom was there. She got to meet the baby then drove all the way back up to Dallas and my sister had hers. They are a day apart. Meagan: Aww, that is so fun. Emily: Anyway, with my third, I was seeing him and I had some weird blood testing results and weird stuff happening at the beginning. It was the end of COVID sort of so COVID started around spring break. I got pregnant around that summer and by the next spring, it had been quite a while but hospitals and stuff still had all of those weird rules in place about people being in the room and all of the things. It was the tail end of that. My husband got to come in for the anatomy scan. He was there with me in the room when she did all of the scanning and everything and then he had to leave when the doctor came in. He went and waited outside in the car and the doctor came in and my first question obviously was, “Did you see any Down Syndrome markers?” They said, “No.” They didn't see that, but her head circumference and her cerebellum were measuring in the first percentile. The normal range is 1-100 and she was right there on the cusp of being abnormally small. He dropped that bomb on me while I was in there by myself. He waited until my husband had left. He told me that I was going to need to go and see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist and then I could come back after that. I left that appointment just in shambles not knowing what was going on or what to expect or what that meant and then I had to wait for an appointment to see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist. At that point, I just threw the whole VBAC idea out the window. It was all about what was going on with the baby and keeping the baby healthy and all of those things. My mom is a NICU nurse so I was like, “Well, I'm going to give birth at the hospital that she works with because if my baby goes into the NICU, I want her to be there, and all of these women that I had known her working with for 30 years.” I went to see a maternal-fetal medicine specialist. I switched providers and hospitals and I went to where my mom was working. I went in and they measured her cerebellum for the rest of my pregnancy. It was every other week or so I would go in and they measured. She stayed on that very tail end the entire time. I want to say that she might have reached the 6th percentile by the end in growth so it was still pretty precarious not really knowing what the deal was there. But by all accounts, she was healthy. They weren't giving me any kind of diagnosis or suspicions about anything. She kept falling in the normal range which meant they weren't going to do any further testing. They could have done an MRI or something on my stomach at one point but they didn't do any of that. I think around 34 weeks, I had an appointment and I was just like, “You know, if we're good to have a VBAC, I still want to do that.” I just looked at my provider and was like, “This was my plan. I don't see why it still can't be my plan. I've got two toddlers at home. I really can't have another surgery. I don't want to do that.” She was like, “Okay. Awesome.” I was expecting a fight. Meagan: You're like, you do. You really, really do. You expect this, “No” or “But, well–”. Those are the things that you automatically assume so when you have a provider who's like, “Okay, cool,” you're like, wait what? It throws you off. Emily: Yeah. I left there with a skip in my step. Meagan: I bet you did. Emily: Right after that, I contacted a friend of mine who is a doula and I started working with her. She shared your podcast with me so I was listening, listening, listening to as many episodes as I could in those couple of weeks and it was very helpful. I'm not a confrontational person or even a person who previously was good at advocating so I was mostly listening. I already knew what the hospital situation looked like. I already knew what a C-section looked like so I was really listening for how do these conversations happen with doctors and what does that look like when you're advocating for yourself? What are the words that I need to use? I listened for a lot of those kinds of examples of this is what I can say if she says this. This is what I can come back with or suggest if this happens. So that was very helpful for me to just go in and can we do a Foley? Can we do a Cook's? Meagan: To feel prepared to have that conversation. Emily: Yeah. I know at one point, they wanted to schedule an induction and I said, “Well, what if I just don't come?” She was like, “Well, we can't drive to your house and bring you,” kind of response. “What if I don't want to do Pitocin and all of this? Can you do a Foley or a Cook's?” I really came into those appointments with more of a two-sided conversation and not just “We're going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this.” I remember I got there at my 36-week appointment and my nurse was like, “Okay, go get undressed.” I didn't get undressed. I just sat there with all my clothes. She came back in and I was like, “I don't want that. I don't want my cervix checked.” Meagan: Good job. Emily: Yeah, she didn't know what to do with that. She was like, “I think she's going to want to look.” I was like, “Well, why?” Meagan: I don't want it. Emily: “I don't want to know. It's going to get me in my head. What's going to change if I'm 36 weeks?” Obviously, that was the norm there to start doing that at that point. What happens if I'm 1 centimeter? What happens if I'm 3? I'm still going to go home. I remember that was the first time I did something out of the norm there. I didn't even say the whole doula thing since it was the end of COVID. They were still working out who was allowed in so I asked for a doula and they didn't know if they could even have them so we were asking the hospital for hospital policies and calling up there asking all kinds of questions. By the time we did show up, everybody there was like, “She's here. She's here.” My mom worked there too so it felt a little bit like maybe everyone else was walking on eggshells with me because– Meagan: Because of your mom too. Emily: Well, my mom too. She was working that day so I probably couldn't have had her if she had come in as an extra person with us, but she was working and so she just showed up in our room in her scrubs and everything. I went into labor. Meagan: What gestation on this one?Emily: I was 37 weeks. Meagan: Whoa! So way earlier. Emily: Yes, way earlier. It was Easter. I started having contractions during the whole Easter thing. I'm hiding eggs struggling around the yard and I went to bed that night thinking, This feels like it's it. They were not painful but they were stronger than the regular Braxton Hicks so I went to bed and I think at 3:00 or so in the morning, they started waking me up. I tried to keep sleeping until 6:00 in the morning. I woke my husband up and was like, “You've got to figure out getting the kids to school and stuff. We're going to be going into the hospital.” It was about an hour drive. So I got in the bath. My doula told me to get in the bath and she gave me some different positions and stuff to do so I did all of that and that sped things along a whole lot. I did some curb walking and then yeah, I showed up at the hospital ready to have her and I want to say I was in labor there for three or four hours. I asked to speak to the– is it the anesthesiologist who does the epidurals and stuff? Meagan: Yep. Emily: I told her that I wanted a walking epidural. A lot of people don't know that there is a range. You can have it on full blast or you can have just a little bit. She gave me a very light epidural. I was able to still move in the bed and get in different positions. They had the bar over the bed at one point. They wanted to do an internal monitor at some point because my heartbeat and the baby's heartbeat, they could not figure out where to put the strap. I declined that. The nurse really just had to stay in there with it pressed to my stomach for hours. Yeah, that's what we did. I moved around. There was a peanut ball at some point and then yeah. They checked my cervix and my water broke. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but I then had another water break at a cervical check and things went pretty quickly after that. I think I pushed through three contractions. Right before I started pushing, my OB came in and said she was leaving and that another doctor would be coming in. I was like, “Does he know? Is he cool?” I was so confused. But yeah, he came in and he was great. He asked if I wanted a mirror. I know that he was using oil and he had a hot compress and whatever. Meagan: That's awesome. Emily: He let me pull her out so I reached down and I grabbed her. It was all very cool. We were blasting Enya's Sail Away. It was a whole vibe. Meagan: I love that. Oh my gosh, I can just picture it all. Emily: It was very easy. Hardest pregnancy, easiest labor and birth. Yeah, she came out. I would say she slid out, but pushing wasn't hard. I could see what was happening. I don't know. I felt very comfortable. Meagan: Good. Emily: I felt ready. Meagan: Good. At the end, was anything going on with her? Emily: Yes. That's another whole long story. She didn't pass her newborn hearing screening so when they do the hearing test, it's a couple of days after you have the baby. She didn't pass and they thought, Oh, she might have fluid in her ears and this and that. You'll have to go back and do it again in a week or so. We went back and did it again and she didn't pass again. We had to go to the Children's Hospital and they did another type of hearing test and we found out that she was deaf. Yeah, we went down the whole hearing aid route and that. Healthwise besides her hearing, she was having a really hard time holding her head up. I think we started having a PT come when she was 4 weeks because her head was just flopping all over. I guess she was diagnosed with a gross motor delay and so we did PT until she started walking at 2.5. We had the option of doing genetic testing and all of that to find out the reason for the hearing loss and we just kind of thought, What's it going to change? She's still not going to be hearing after all of these tests so whatever. We will just deal with what we've got going on right now. She got hearing aids at 4 months. We were going in and they would do all kinds of tests and stuff. She still wasn't responding to any sound so they wanted to do cochlear implants and in order to do that, you have to have an MRI. They look at everything structurally to make sure you are a good candidate for cochlear implants. They look at the nerve and the ear canal and all of those things. They came back and they said, “She can get them. She's a good candidate for that, but here's what we saw with her brain on the MRI.” She had white matter abnormalities which are just when they go in and they look, if you have all of these white spots, they indicate inactivity so she had a bunch of that that they couldn't explain and she had a cyst somewhere in there on some groove. I have forgotten all of the lingo at this point. They wanted to find out what the cause of all of those things were. They also didn't want to give her cochlear implants if they thought that these areas were going to grow so then we started doing all of the genetic and DNA testing. They wanted us to wait a year to do her next MRI and the cochlear implants to make sure in that year time period they didn't grow at all. We were just like, “We can't do that. One, we can't wait a year to find out if our child has this thing that's taking over her brain and two, it's a critical time for learning language and speech and all of those things.” We settled with 6 months so we waited another 6 months. We did another MRI. They checked. Nothing grew. She was still making growths and learned to crawl and all of those things. She just did everything about a year behind. Yeah, we did cochlear implants and we all learned sign language and that's how we communicate. Yeah, it's been 3 years now. She just started the deaf preschool last week. Meagan: Awesome. Emily: And now bringing it home with baby number four. Meagan: Baby number four who is 9 months old? Emily: Yes. He was a surprise. We had a lot going on with my third daughter. I've got Eloise who is 7, Violet who is 5, and Matilda who just turned 3. We thought, Maybe we'll have another. Let's see what's going on with her. Let's get her into kindergarten. Let's get her speaking and signing and all of these things. Then we had surprise baby number four. He ended up being a boy so that was fun. He was born in July of last year. Meagan: Okay. Emily: During all of that, our insurance had changed so I couldn't go back to the same OB/GYN and I went to another one at that same hospital. After I had my third, my hormones were just so wild and crazy and I had a lot of anxiety and obviously stress from all that was going on with her. I went in and I was like, “I just want to figure out what's going on with my hormones.” I remember the doctor asked me about my previous pregnancies and births and stuff. I told her, “I actually had a VBAC with Dr. So and so at this hospital.” She said, “Oh, if you want to do that again, you've got to go somewhere else because we don't do that here.” Meagan: But you're like, “But I did do it here.” Emily: I was like, “Don't worry about it because I don't want to have another one.” Of course, a few months after that, I ended up getting pregnant again so our insurance had changed yet again. If you have a baby who has special needs, you've got to get the insurance thing figured out all the time. We changed again. I was able to go back to the same doctor so when I was pregnant with him, I saw her and she was like, “I'm guessing you're going to want another VBAC.” I said, “You're right.” Same thing. I didn't let them check my cervix. I didn't have a late-term sonogram. I went into labor with him. I got induced. That's right. I got induced with him. Yeah, yeah. I was 41 weeks again. Meagan: Okay. Emily: I was so expecting another early one and then I got to 41 weeks and we started talking about inductions and stuff. I said, “If I come in and do this, I'm going to want to do Foley or something again.” So that's what we did. That put me into labor right away. I think I was 1 centimeter so they were able to put that in and it just went from there. I will say this about the fourth with the same provider. I specifically in my birth plan said, “No students.” I feel like I had already done all of that. I had already allowed all of them. I had paid my dues to society by letting them in. I had a student who did my epidural with my second. I was done. I was done with that. I didn't want a bunch of people in the room. When it was time to put in the Foley, she wasn't available so they were like, “Do you mind if a resident does it?” I'm like, “That's fine.” The question was raised about breaking my water. I think I was over 6 centimeters at that point when they were asking about breaking my water and I was like, “Eh.” I talked to my doula. She was there again. I talked to my doula about it and we decided that was okay to get things moving along. They said, “Oh, well she's not available still. Can a resident come in and do that?” I was like, “Okay.” Then it was time to push and deliver and a whole team of people came in. I was in the thick of it. I had another really low-dose epidural so I was still feeling a lot. I also thing one thing about the low-dose epidural managing pain and staying on top of pain is a real thing and you can reach a certain point where there's not much you can do about it where you are too far. That's where I got with that. Even though I had the epidural, I was too far along at that point for it to do much. I was like, “Turn it up. Turn it up.” It wasn't making any difference so just know that's something that does happen. When it was time to push, my doctor on her wheelie stool just scooted out of the way and someone else showed up. Meagan: What? Again? Emily: From the background and it was like, “Push, push, push!” The vibes were very different. I'm not sure why that happened because as far as I'm concerned, nothing was happening with me medically and nothing was happening with him medically to necessitate me to push vigorously. I had not been pushing for hours. I got him out in under 30 minutes. It felt like there was this need for me to get him out of there and get him out quickly. I'm not sure why that happened. So I guess it was a resident who was down there. There was no oil this time. There was no hot compress this time. There was more pulling during the pushing part and I ended up tearing fourth degree all the way. It was awful. Same provider, different experience. She's retired now. I wouldn't go as far to say that I'd recommend her to other people having a VBAC. I think she was more– what's the word? Not VBAC-friendly. Meagan: Tolerant. Emily: Tolerant. I think she didn't think I was going to get there so she said yes thinking that's not how it was going to go and we'd never get to that point where I was in labor there ready to push. That's what happened both times so it was thrust upon her also. She's not a bad doctor or anything. That's my one takeaway from that one. You're pushing and there's a lot of people in the room and there's a lot going on and you're very much focused. I wish that I or someone else in the room had said, “Oh wait, what's happening down there? Why is this person coming in? Why are we doing this so quickly? What's this need to rush?” Yeah. That's my takeaway from that one. At the end of the day, I had an easy pregnancy and an easy delivery. I did have another vaginal, but it also came with some bad as well. It was a bad recovery for me for sure. Meagan: You know, I think that's something to note. Like you said, you got your vaginal birth and everything, but not every vaginal birth always ends with an easy recovery or an easy experience or even a positive experience so it does help to have that support team but here you go. Still even then at the last second, you got switched out on like you did last time too. That's weird. I'm like, was she not confident in delivering babies or what? That's interesting. Emily: I don't know. I'm not sure. Of course, afterward, I'm like, If she had stayed sitting there, would I have torn as much? Meagan: Exactly, yeah. Emily: If I was pressured to go so quickly, would I have torn as much? I left that one feeling, What just happened? I talked to my doula afterward about it and she was like, “You know, I wish I had said something,” but unless we had talked about it before, for her to stop a doctor in the middle of what they are doing without me having already told her, “Hey, I don't want this,” it's weird. Meagan: It's a really tricky situation. As a doula, I will say it's very tricky when you're like, I don't like what I'm seeing, but she's not saying anything and didn't say anything to me before this. I would assume she doesn't like this, but at the same time, yeah. Like you said, it's tricky. You don't want to step on people's toes. You don't want to change the atmosphere. It doesn't sound like the atmosphere was exactly peaceful either, but yeah. Gosh. That's hard. Emily: Yeah. It was another unexpected thing. I hadn't prepared for that scenario. I had it in my birth plan that I didn't want students, but then I had said yes to them for these things, so I can see how we got there, but yeah. For those wondering, I pushed him out to Shania Twain's Man I Feel Like a Woman. There were some good vibes in there. Meagan: I'm loving all of your music choices. That is amazing. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm sorry that it was that type of an ending. I am happy for you that you were able to have both of your vaginal births. But it's such a good takeaway and a great note. Women of Strength, think about those things too even with pushing, what you are wanting. Talk about this to your team. “If nothing's wrong, if nothing is emergent, I need it to be this way,” because that is for sure tricky. I wanted to talk about way into the first birth. I wanted to give a couple of suggestions for people who are having a hyperactive uterus where the uterus is just too active. It's not releasing. Sometimes that can be a baby's position working through and trying to get into the right position and the uterus is trying to help but a lot of the time it can be due to things like dehydration or I know that sometimes if there's a UTI or an infection or something like that, that can cause a hyperactive uterus. Sometimes people just have hyperactive uteruses but with a uterus that is just not letting go like yours, something that a midwife a long time ago within my doula career suggested to a client of mine was called cramp bark. Cramp bark, yeah. It's a tincture and you can take it. It can try to help relax the uterus so if you are having really long prodromal labor or like Emily where her uterus just wouldn't give up and it was just constant– and you said it was in your back. Emily: I had that wrap-around experience. It was like, I'm in a whole lot of pain but it's right here in my back. It never eased up. No, and then I wasn't dilating at the same time after all of this time of being like that. I think it was definitely her positioning. She was sunny-side up by the time the C-section did happen. Meagan: That's what I was thinking. Were you dehydrated or was it a positional thing? A positional factor can do that. Sometimes the uterus needs to relax so we can work with position. I know you were working with position but your uterus wasn't giving up. Sometimes you can increase your hydration, but cramp bark and always, always, always ask your provider about it, but it was actually something that a midwife and I think Julie took it with one of her babies with her prodromal labor too and it helped her as well. I just wanted to bring back that note of if you're having that hyperactive uterus, there could be a few things like hydration, position, maybe it's an infection that is undetected or maybe you've just got a great uterus that likes to keep squeezing. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful stories. I'm so happy for you and congratulations. Emily: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Caylee joins us from Canada sharing her experience with two VBACs after a twin Cesarean birth. She also shares what it was like having cholestasis in all three pregnancies. Cholestasis is a liver condition that slows or stalls the flow of bile. Meagan and Caylee discuss in greater detail what cholestasis means during pregnancy, what symptoms can look like, and how it is diagnosed. One of Caylee's most intense symptoms was incessant itching. She talks about how it affected her not only physically but mentally as well. While all three of her pregnancies were preterm births and her two VBACs were medically necessary inductions, Caylee advocated throughout her entire labors and was able to stay the course to achieve the vaginal births she knew she was capable of. Cleveland Clinic Article: Cholestasis of PregnancyAmerican Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology Article: Risk of Stillbirth in U.S. Patients with CholestasisHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. We have our friend, Caylee, with us and her little wee, tiny little newborn. Caylee: Hi everyone. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Welcome to the show. How old is your baby? Caylee: He just turned 3 months. He was born a month early though. Meagan: Okay, 3 months and a month early. We are going to talk about why he was born a month early. You guys, today we are going to be sharing some stores and talking a little bit about cholestasis. This is something that we actually don't have a lot about on the show. When you were listening, Caylee, did you? Caylee: I don't think I've heard a single episode, yeah. Meagan: Did you hear about it in general on other platforms? Was it talked about?Caylee: Not really, no. I found it online on Facebook. I'm in the ICP Care Facebook group and that's super helpful. They are amazing in there and super knowledgeable, but yeah. It's not very common. It's quite rare. I think it's 1 in 1000 women who end up getting it. Meagan: Yeah. Caylee: So yeah. It's not very well known about and even with providers, providers don't know about it very well either. Meagan: Yeah. I think that can be part of the problem, right? Because we've got providers who don't know a lot about it and then it can cause a little bit of a panic and then a lot of the times, it can cause Cesareans or lead, I should say, to Cesarean. We're going to be talking about that today and sharing her stories. Review of the WeekMeagan: But I do have a Review of the Week so I'm going to get into that and then turn the time over to cute Caylee. This is from Cori and it doesn't say where it's from. Somewhere in the universe, it is from. It says, “The VBAC Link is gold.” It says, “Of all of the things I did to prepare in pursuing for a VBAC after two C-sections, I think is one of the most important is that I was listening to this podcast. Hearing these stories and information from Meagan and Julie made the dive into learning about VBAC and birth in general so much easier. I was blessed with my VBA2C” so VBAC after two C-sections “with my sweet Brynne Lynn and I sincerely believe I wouldn't have gotten to that point without this resource and the community. Thank you guys for all that you do.” Oh, that just makes me smile so much because this community– oh my gosh. I mean, Caylee and I were kind of just talking about this. Yes, Julie and I are here, but there is this community, this absolutely incredible community and all of the people coming forth to share their stories. And Caylee, you just said it yourself when you were like,  it's like all of these people who came and shared these stories impacted you. Caylee: Yeah, totally. Meagan: Yeah, they are the reason. You are the reason right here. Caylee, you are the reason why what Cori said in this review is possible by sharing your stories, by coming in the community on Facebook and on Instagram and having these conversations and learning and also being vulnerable. There are so many times where I see posts where it's the most vulnerable, genuine post and I can't explain to you the outpouring of love that I see come in for this person from this community. The VBAC Link Community, just the VBAC community in general, oh my gosh. You are all amazing. Thank you so much and yes, if you want to join that community, check us out on Facebook at The VBAC Link Community. It is a private group. You do have to answer the questions to get in so just keep that in mind. If you are not answering questions, you might not be allowed in. And on Instagram, and of course, if you want to have a review that I could share for the Review of the Week, please do so. We would love that.  Symptoms of Cholestasis Meagan: Okay, Caylee. Are you ready? I'm so ready. Caylee: I am ready, yes. Meagan: Awesome, I would love to turn over the time. Caylee: I don't know where to start. Should we start by talking a little bit about cholestasis so that they understand the risks? Meagan: Yeah, I think that– well yeah, the risks, the symptoms, and then also how it can be missed and then how it can sometimes– well it kind of goes with the risk, but there are other things that can come in I should say from cholestasis and I actually even had a client myself, a VBAC client after two C-sections. She had cholestasis, preeclampsia, VBAC after two Cesareans, and was induced. Caylee: Wow, good for her. Meagan: Yeah, but preeclampsia, right? Okay, let's talk about the things. So what are the symptoms that you one, may be experiencing, and two, that there may be that someone might not experience? Caylee: Yeah, so for me, it was intense itching mainly on the bottom of my feet and on the palm of my hands but I had it everywhere. I have scars on my ankles, up my arms, on my belly just from scratching. Meagan: From scratching? Caylee: Yes, incessantly. It's an itch that you can't really scratch. It's in your blood that is making you so itchy so you can scratch all you want and it's temporary relief but as soon as you stop, it's like, oh. I broke down in tears so many times and had ice packs on my feet and on my hands while I was trying to sleep. Another symptom is darker urine output and some upper right quadrant pain. Meagan: Yes. Yeah. Caylee: Those are very common and some people also experience jaundice. Meagan: I was going to say yellowing, jaundice. Decreased appetite. Caylee: Yeah. You're more likely to get preeclampsia and gestational diabetes. Yeah. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. So nausea, feeling unwell, dark urine, lack of urine output which a lot of the time, dark urine is the beginning of that. Your kidneys are warning you and then you stop. Yeah. I had a client, not the one I was telling you about, but another client. She said that her bowels like her poop smelled really weird, like abnormal. Caylee: Yeah, I've heard that before too. Meagan: Yeah. That's the first time when she was like– that was actually one of her first symptoms that she noticed. Thinking back, she was like, “Yeah, I guess I was kind of itchy, but I wasn't itchy-itchy until later.” But that was one of the things where she was like, “I just thought I ate something weird.” Caylee: Yeah. Meagan: A decreased appetite. Pain in your belly and your quadrants, jaundice, and of course, itching. Those are the main signs. Caylee: Itching. And the severity of the itching can vary greatly between cases so the first time, it was quite mild and then it progressively got worse throughout my pregnancies. That's different for everyone who experiences that so if you have any itching, you should ask for LST's and bile acid tests from your provider. Itching can also precede the bile acids rising and the elevated bile acids is what's dangerous for the baby. It increases the risks in the baby where they might pass meconium before birth and also stillbirth risk goes up a lot if the bile acids are above 40. Meagan: Too high, yeah. So when you are pregnant, if you are having symptoms, definitely go in and get checked like she said. Get these tests. Then if you have cholestasis, if you test positive and things are looking like you have it, it is something that may increase extra testing and extra visits because you do want to keep a close eye on this. Again, like she said in the beginning, it's really rare. Even right here, it shows on this link that I'm going to put in the show notes, it's from the Cleveland Clinic, but it shows 1-2 in 1000 people during pregnancy will experience this. It's pretty low, but it can be a serious thing. Also, I was going to ask you because I know my clients have in the past. They've been given some things to try and control, to minimize, to control, to lower things to try and continue pregnancy to a good, safe term stage. Were you given anything like that? Caylee: Yeah. I was put on a medication called Ursodiol. It helps lower bile acids to make it a little bit safer for the baby so you can continue. With my last pregnancy, they were very severe levels. They were over 100 so it was kind of touch and go there whether we could get him to 36 weeks or not. They were talking about inducing me at 34 weeks. We ended up opting for non-stress tests and biophysical profile ultrasounds just to keep an eye on him. Meagan: And he did well? Caylee: He was doing well. He had already passed meconium sometime before I was induced though at 36 weeks. It was time for him to come out. He was already in distress so it was good that we did end up taking him out at 36 weeks, but he did great. Really great. Meagan: Good. Good. That's another thing I would like to drop in and note that if you do have cholestasis, it may be something that brings you to something like an induction that is earlier than expected. Obviously here, we're going to share this story in just a second about VBAC and induction. It's possible and totally doable, but that is a thing. Cause of CholestasisMeagan: She's mentioning bile. It is in the liver, right? Am I correct? It's in the liver. Caylee: Yeah. Meagan: We don't really know why. I don't know why. Do we know exactly why it happens?Caylee: They don't. They think it's something to do with pregnancy hormones and the placenta, but they don't know for sure. It's some sort of genetic factor as well, but no woman in my family who I know has had it. So I think it's just something that can happen sometimes. Meagan: Yeah. I have heard the hormones like estrogen and progesterone can be too much in the body. So just to circle back around again, if you have had any of these symptoms or if you are having any of these symptoms, it's okay. Don't hesitate and go in and get checked out. Caylee: And if you go in and get a negative result and still have symptoms, ask your provider to keep testing you. Meagan: Yes. Go back and check again. Okay, so baby number one? First pregnancy: TwinsCaylee: Twins. Meagan: Twins! Caylee: Baby one and two, my first pregnancy. Meagan: So twins. You had symptoms? Caylee: I did, yes. I got it pretty early on and they tested me and it was negative. They just put me on Ursodiol before anything came back positive. They didn't do anymore testing or anything. I didn't have any itching. The medication must have made it go away somewhat. Yeah. I was only 21 when I was pregnant with the twins so I was pretty young. I didn't know much of anything. I knew I wanted a vaginal birth. I had actually switched providers in my third trimester to somebody who was comfortable with vaginal birth with twins and they ended up being breech when they decided they needed to take them out. Preterm Cesarean at 36 weeks due to breech presentation and IUGRIt wasn't due to cholestasis, but I did have them at 36 weeks because one of the twins had stopped growing so they took them out. Meagan: IUGR? Caylee: Yeah. Yeah. He was quite significantly smaller than his brother. Meagan: Okay. That can happen with twins too, I know. Caylee: Yeah, totally. Yeah. My twin A was 6 pounds, 7 ounces, and twin B was 4 pounds, 4 so it was quite a big difference. Meagan: Mhmm. Caylee: Yeah, so it was a C-section with them. We were in the NICU for two weeks. Second pregnancyCaylee: I ended up getting pregnant again when the twins were 16 or 17 months old. I knew I did not want to do that again, having a C-section so I found supportive midwives and got on with them. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's in Canada, but they don't allow home birth for your first VBAC for some reason. Maybe it was just those midwives, I don't know, but I really wanted a home birth and they were like, “No, let's do hospital. It's safer.” I was like, “Okay, as long as I can still have my VBAC. I'll just do that.” The pregnancy went well. I thought I wasn't going to get it again. No itching, then I hit 34 weeks and the dreaded itching started again. I kind of had a feeling that I had it during my first pregnancy too from my own research. I had mentioned it to my midwives beforehand so we were looking for it seeing if it would happen. They sent me for testing right away at 34 weeks. It came back negative so they ended up testing me again weekly and then at 36 weeks, they tested me and my liver function tests were very high. My liver was basically failing and they didn't even wait for the bile acids to come back. They just brought me in for an induction. Meagan: What week again? Caylee: I was 36 weeks and 2 days when they started my induction.Meagan: Okay, so technically preterm. Caylee: Yes, yes. InductionCaylee: When I went in, they started with a Foley balloon to help dilate my cervix and that was awful. It's like a torture device, I swear. But it was effective I guess. It dilated me and then it fell out and I don't know if they didn't have a nurse for me or something, but I was waiting 8 hours for them to continue my induction. The OB came in and he wanted to break my water. I said, “No. Let's start low Pitocin.” He was like, “Well, it's not really going to do anything if you're not going to break your water too.” I said, “Okay, let's see how it goes.” Meagan: Yes. Caylee: We did that. Labor was going smoothly. I loved being in the shower. It was amazing. Then they made me get out because his heart rate was dipping really high so they wanted to get me out and be able to monitor him a little bit better. That's when things got really intense and I felt like I wasn't able to cope as well after I got out of the shower. I think in the back of my mind, I was still pretty young with him too for my first VBAC. I was only 24 and I know that uterine rupture risk is very low, but for some reason, I just couldn't get that out of my mind and every contraction I'd have, I'd just feel like I was being ripped open and was so scared that I was having a uterine rupture. I ended up– it was 32 hours into my induction and I still was at 4 centimeters just because I wasn't letting my body relax and do the work. I was tensing and fighting every contractions because I was terrified. I ended up getting an epidural at 1:00 AM and 5 hours later, I woke up and was fully dilated and pushed for 15 minutes and he came out. Meagan: 15?! 1-5? Caylee: Yeah, 1-5. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Caylee: As he was coming out, I pulled him up to my chest and it was just this amazing feeling like, Oh my god, I did it. The high that comes with that is unbelievable. Meagan: Yeah. Caylee: I just kept looking at everyone saying, “I did it. I did it.” Meagan: Absolutely. Caylee: It's an amazing feeling. Meagan: It really is. Caylee: I fought with the OB who was on call a little bit, the one who wanted to break my water. He kept saying, “Does she want to do this? Let's just go for a C-section.” I'm like, “Yeah, I can do this all night long and he can stay out of my room until I'm pushing. My midwives have got this, thanks.”Unfortunately, because I had to be induced, I had to be overseen by an OB so my midwife ran the show and was able to be with me and do everything, but he had to be there in case anything went wrong I guess. Meagan: That's kind of normal. A lot of the times, when there is a hospital midwife, there are OBs who oversee them. Caylee: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was my first VBAC, first induced VBAC. Second Induced VBACCaylee: I just recently had another induced VBAC. With this one, my levels went up high. I think it was 28 weeks that I tested positive so it was sooner. Meagan: Significantly sooner. Caylee: Yeah. They went from 0 to 100 within a matter of days. They put me on Ursodiol immediately as soon as it came back positive. I was being monitored weekly with NSTs, non-stress tests, and they were sending me for biophysical profiles as well weekly which is an ultrasound to check on the baby's well-being. He was doing well so they just were keeping going with that and unfortunately, the Ursodiol did not help my itching this time around. It was so severe. I was in tears pretty much daily from the severity of the itching. Yeah. It was really bad this time. The mental health aspect of having that incessant itching I don't think is talked about a lot either. It really gets to you. It's depressing. Meagan: Oh, I would not do well with that. I would find myself getting very anxious probably and out of control. Caylee: Even now, if I get an itch, I get PTSD. It's like, Oh my god. It's not going to stop. I freak myself out and work myself up. I remember that after my second pregnancy as well. It was like I'd get a bug bite and I'd just have to itch and itch and itch until it was bleeding. Oh, it was just bad. I don't know how to leave itching alone now. His levels were very severe, or my levels I guess. My liver function tests were some of the worst that my OB had ever seen. Meagan: Interesting. Caylee: So yeah, it was just really bad. Caylee: I had actually applied for midwives. We had just moved from Alberta for BC pretty much as soon as we found out we were pregnant with Henley here. I applied pretty much as soon as I found out I was pregnant for the midwives here. I ended up hearing back from the midwives in Edmonton which is an hour and a half away that they could see me up there but once I got the itching and cholestasis, I was like, “Just transfer me to an OB where I live. It's just easier for me then all of my appointments will be out here and I don't have to drive 1.5-2 hours to appointments in the middle of winter.” Yeah, so they scheduled my induction for exactly 36 weeks because of the high levels. They didn't want me going past that because with levels over 100 bile acids, the stillbirth risk goes up very high after 37 weeks. Meagan: Did they give you a percentage or anything like that? Caylee: Yeah, I think it's upwards of 15% with very severe levels. Meagan: Oh wow. Caylee: If levels stay under 40, your risk of stillbirth is around the same as anyone else's. They go up 3% over 40 and over 100, it's even more. So it was a bit touch and go there. They were talking about inducing at 34 weeks and we were able to get to 36. Still preterm, but a higher likelihood that he wouldn't need additional support. InductionCaylee: I was induced at exactly 36 weeks. I actually had influenza B when I had to be induced. Meagan: That's miserable. Caylee: As if labor isn't hard enough alone, I had to have influenza B. It was great. Meagan: Miserable. Yes. Caylee: Yeah, one perk though was that we got a private room right away. I didn't have to labor in triage until I was far enough along to get my delivery room or whatever. They put me right in there. I was able to get set up and feel like it was my space and get more comfortable. So yeah, they started with the Foley balloon again to open the cervix. They can't do Cervadil or a few of the other cervical ripening– Meagan: Cytotec. Caylee: Yeah, because it really does increase the risk of uterine rupture with induction, but the Foley balloon is a safer option and it works. Within an hour and a half this time, my cervix was 4 centimeters. Meagan: Wow. Caylee: From barely a 1. It was kind of funny. I was standing there talking to my husband and I took a step toward the bathroom and it just flopped out and there was this line of blood up and down the floor. It was like a total bloody show. Meagan: Mucus. Caylee: In a perfect line. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Caylee: Because they attach the tube to your leg. They tape it to your leg so when it falls out, it makes a long, smooth line. My husband pulled the nurse call button and she's laughing. She ended up cleaning me up. Things picked up pretty quickly from there this time. I felt it was much more manageable though. I don't know if the nurses were nicer this time and they were doing the Pitocin a bit slower because I remember with my first VBAC, the contractions just felt back to back like I wasn't getting a break at all and it was really mentally wearing me out after 32 hours. I hadn't slept. I ended up getting the epidural but this time, it felt like more of a natural progression. I don't know. I've never had natural labor, but for me, I was able to handle it a lot better. Maybe that's because I knew what to expect this time so it wasn't as scary. Meagan: It could be. Caylee: Yeah, I don't know. Or I've heard too that with cholestasis that the bile acids or something make Pitocin more effective so maybe I didn't need as much of it this time because my levels were higher. I don't know but it was much more peaceful this time and I knew what to expect even though I was sick. I labored in the shower for a little bit with the mobile monitor because with inductions, they want to be able to monitor the baby constantly which I know is talked about a lot on here as something that is not ideal. Meagan: Yeah. Even if no induction with VBAC, it's really, really common if not 100% that your hospital is going to want that monitoring. Caylee: Yeah. And having that mobile monitor though is so helpful if your hospital has one of those. Definitely ask because oh my gosh, it's so nice to be able to get up and walk around and move and shower. Unfortunately, because of the flu, we were battling a fever. I had a fever so as soon as my Tylenol would wear off, my fever would spike and then his heart rate would go up. I had an anterior placenta so it was kind of in the way of the monitoring and it was hard to get him constantly so they ended up wanting to do the electrode. Meagan: The IUPC and the FSC? Caylee: Yeah, I think so. It's the one that they put on the scalp. Meagan: Okay, that's an FSC, fetal scalp electrode. Caylee: Yeah, that unfortunately didn't work very well. I was bed-bound but I was so sick that I didn't even really care. I was just switching sides laboring through, using the gas. I loved the gas this time.Yeah. I ended up getting to an 8, 8 centimeters and the OB unfortunately was not the OB who I had through my pregnancy. She had gone on vacation for my induction, unfortunately. I was really sad about that, but the OB on call came in and he was like, “You know, this is taking pretty long. I think it's time that we start thinking about a C-section. I'm getting worried about your scar.” I'm like, “I've done this before and it took longer last time. I am not having a C-section.” Meagan: Good for you. Caylee: I don't think he really liked that though because he was like, “Well, then you're getting an epidural because at least if you have the epidural and something happens, we can rush you in and open you up faster,” and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, “It has to be at least 24 hours and it's only been maybe 12 hours of hard, active labor here. My C-section scar is strong. It's been over 7 years since my first C-section. We are both doing well. Yes, I'm sick. Yes, his heart rate keeps going up when we have a fever but when the Tylenol kicks in, his heart is going back down and his tracing is normal. Why would I have a C-section?” Meagan: The fact that you're having a fever is more likely to the fact that you are sick versus that you have an infection.Caylee: Yeah, exactly. They tested me when I got there and they knew that I had influenza B and I tested for Group B strep so I was just having to fight with another OB again which is really frustrating, but yeah. He ended up leaving the room and my doula and my nurse were both like, “Wow, you're amazing. I'm actually so impressed with you saying no to him.” I guess a lot of people just go with what the doctor says. Meagan: Well, I guess. Caylee: That is why there are so many unneeded C-sections. Meagan: Well, we've talked about it on the show where it's like, I didn't go to years and years of medical school, so okay, I guess. Same thing with me, I was like, Okay, and went down and had a C-section when I completely did not need a C-section. Caylee: You hope that doctors are saying that when it is actually medically necessary and not when it's convenient for them. I think he was getting like, It's been 24 hours. I'm almost off-shift. I don't know, but I was not having it. It was actually funny. When he texted me, he was like, Oh, you're 8 centimeters, but he's -2 position and not coming down. He was like, It's probably time to do a C-section. I was like, “No, it's not actually.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. He really wanted to do a C-section. Caylee: Yeah, so I was like, “No, I'm not having a C-section.” He ended up leaving the room and pretty much immediately, I had a super strong contraction. I jumped off the bed trying to get away from it because apparently, that can help. I kind of grabbed my nurse's shoulders, the poor thing. She is this tiny, little 20-something nurse. I grabbed her shoulders and my body was pushing. I was farting and things were moving down there. Meagan: I bet that baby was coming down quickly too. Caylee: Yeah, that quick movement. Popping up just brought him down and she was like, “Are you pushing?” My doula was like, “Well, that's a good sign.” I was like, “I don't think so.” But my body was just doing it and then I barely made it back on the bed before his head was out. Meagan: Oh my gosh. So was the provider even in there? Caylee: No. Nope, he was just leaving the room telling me that I needed a C-section because I wasn't progressing. Meagan: I know that he had left but I didn't know if she was beeping him back in like, “Come back in!”Caylee: I guess he was down the hallway at that point and his head was out. I made it back onto the bed thankfully. My nurse was down there taking the fetal electrode out of his scalp panicking a little bit being a nurse. She was like, “You need to keep pushing.” I'm like thinking in my mind, No, I need to rest for a second. His head's out. He's fine. I knew in my soul that he was okay. I took half of a second to rest and then my body was pushing again and he was out. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Caylee: He had the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and his armpit. I thought that maybe was why he wasn't coming down. Meagan: It could be. Caylee: Maybe he was tangled up in there a little bit and couldn't come down fully but maybe that quick movement that I did to pop out of bed was just enough to let him come down. It was so quick. I was looking around. My doula ended up riding out into the hallway to call my OB back and my nurse was frantic. She was like, “This was my first baby I caught!”Meagan: Aw, and it was a VBAC. Caylee: Yeah, yeah. I'm looking around the room like, “Whoa. What just happened?” I went from 5 minutes ago being told it was time for a C-section to my baby on my chest. Meagan: Yes. Oh, that is amazing. You know, maybe that person needed to leave to also relieve some stress so baby could come down. That's another thought I had. Caylee: Yeah, I think that was it and maybe my baby was like, Yeah, we're not going for surgery, mom. Let's show this OB what's up. Meagan: Yeah, seriously. It reminds me– is it the tiger or the lion? I can't remember the thing, but when you are being chased or when you are in a hostile environment, you either tense up or you run or whatever. We've got all of these senses and you could have been like, Nope. I am not having this baby with you in this room. I've had enough of your C-section talk. So cool. So after, with all of the babies, but especially with this one because your levels were so bad, were there any complications? Caylee: I guess I did touch on this a little bit before. I forgot though during my birth story there, when they broke my water, because I did allow it earlier this time because I felt with my first VBAC that that actually helped speed things up a little bit. I did allow them to break my water and start Pitocin at the same time this time. When they broke my water, it was full of meconium. They weren't too worried about it. Thankfully, that OB seemed pretty C-section happy and he was still like, “Oh, no big deal. We'll just monitor him. It's okay. There is a risk there for aspiration, but it's not a total risk that that will happen.” So they were just monitoring that. When he came out, he was fine for being 36 weeks. He was breathing good. They wiped his face because there was the meconium on his face, but no. He was great. It was more me that I was worried. I was like, “Is he okay?” They were like, “He's fine.” Meagan: Good. That's so good to know. I was just curious because he was early, high levels, induction, fevers, all the things so that's so good to hear that he was really great. Caylee: Mhmm, yeah. Even my twins were 36 weeks, 2 days when I had my C-section. They were in the NICU for 2 weeks and that was just for feeding and growing. They didn't know how to suck and then with my now 5-year-old, he was totally healthy when he came out too. He was 36+4 at the time he was born because my induction took so long with him, but yeah. He was healthy. He did have jaundice quite badly though so he needed the bilirubin lights and then with my baby now, he also had jaundice but he was able to stay off of the lights. He was just under that level for needing phototherapy. That's pretty common with early babies anyway. I don't know if that had anything to do with cholestasis in general or if that was just them being early that it was more likely to happen.Meagan: Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing your story and talking more about cholestasis with us. Like you said, there is not a lot out there. It is not very common so it makes sense that it is not talked about that often. However, uterine rupture isn't very common but it is talked about all the time. Caylee: Yeah. Meagan: So you know, but it's good. It's good to be aware. It's good to understand the symptoms and what's going on and why so I'm so grateful that you shared your stories. I'm so grateful that everyone is healthy and happy and wonderful and you are smiling and have some good birth experiences and maybe some healing birth experiences. Caylee: Yeah, totally. Meagan: You showed yourself that you could stand up to pressuring doctors. Caylee: Yes. I honestly thank my doula for being there for my last birth because I don't know if I would have had the confidence to be that firm with such a pushy, “this is what's going to happen” doctor. We had talked about it previously that she can't say anything for me but that she will be there to support and give me the power to advocate for myself. I totally felt that power from her. She was amazing. I'd like to shout her out to Little Loves Doula in Red Deer. She was amazing. Stephanie, she's great. If anyone is in Red Deer, Alberta, definitely contact Stephanie from Little Loves. Meagan: Well, you know that we love doulas here and always encourage checking out a doula. We do have VBAC Link-certified doulas. She's got her doula. Yeah. Caylee: I think she was also VBAC Link certified. Meagan: Was she or is she? Caylee: Yeah. Meagan: That's so awesome. You can check out The VBAC Link doulas at vbaclink.com/findadoula. Let me tell you, it's so fun to see all of the doulas in all of the different states. We are growing within the States. And if you have a doula in mind who is not on the VBAC list, send them the link. We would love to have them and have them support our VBAC clients and our VBAC community. Thank you so much again. Caylee: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Let's change the narrative.” From how to be an active participate in your care to how to help get your partner on board with your birth goals, Flor Cruz and Meagan talk about it all. Flor Cruz is the founder of BadassMotherBirther and a long-time friend of The VBAC Link. A two-time VBAC mom herself, Flor is passionate about equipping all moms with the education they need to feel empowered in their birth space. Meagan and Flor share the importance of paying attention to red flags and how to recognize them even within your body. They talk about how feeling safe in your birth environment and being able to acclimate can literally change your birth outcome. These two ladies have been where you are. They know how overwhelming it can be trying to prepare for an empowering and healing birth after tough ones. But Women of Strength, you are not alone. Together, we truly can make birth after Cesarean better. Flor's WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. Today's episode is with one of my absolute favorite people. Even though I actually haven't met her personally, I've been following her forever and we've been doing things and connecting back and forth for years. I am just so stinking excited to have the one and only Flor Cruz from BadassMotherBirther on the show today. We're going to get into the nitty gritty and really talk about some feelings so be prepared for that. If you don't know who Flor Cruz is yet, I highly suggest checking out BadassMotherBirther. She is the creator of BadassMotherBirther. She is a doula, a birth and human rights advocate, a childbirth educator, and also a mom of 5 and two-time VBACer. You guys, I'm so stinking excited to have her on the show. We do have a Review of the Week and then we are going to jump right into our episode. Today's review is by mamaofboys0326. It says, “The Best Podcast About Birth and VBACs”. It says, “I had my first baby after a very unexpected C-section. I had done everything right to try and have a natural birth and things did not go as planned. When I got pregnant again only 6 months after him, I knew I wanted a VBAC but didn't know where to go for information and support. This podcast was exactly what I needed. The birth stories and education, information, and inspiration that is provided is amazing. It helped me know the facts about VBAC and be inspired to be a Woman of Strength. I am here to say I just had a successful VBAC and I am so thankful for the inspiration that this podcast has provided for me through the whole journey.”Oh my goodness. Mamaofboys0326, thank you so much for your review and congratulations on your VBAC. We love you. All right, let's get into today's show.Meagan: Okay, so we're just going to dive right in because the conversation we were having before we started pressing record was exactly what I feel like I want to talk about today and everybody, right before we were pushing record, we are going to talk about doulas. We are birth workers. We are VBAC moms. We see a lot of stuff and we've also been through a lot of stuff so we understand you. We get you. We hear you. We see you. We see it every day in all of the VBAC communities even not in the VBAC communities. I'm seeing so much of the same questions and comments and things. I just wanted to talk a lot about some of those things. One of them was a doula and how we can't expect them to save us as VBAC birthers, right? I was telling her about a situation with a client who unfortunately came with a lot of question and doubt in what she was being told, but then in the end, the decision that was made which is not my decision to make or judge or anything, but it was a decision that was made that unfortunately turned into the cascade that a lot of us see. The hardest part is that person was pretty upset with us. That was hard. That was hard for me so what she posted a post. I think it was actually this month maybe. I think it was this month and she just said, “The birth plan will not save you. The doula will not save you,” because we hear a lot of people say, “I hired the doula. I did the birth plan. I did this. I did that and it still didn't work out in the way.” I love what you were just saying about insurance. Can you tell them about that? Flor: Yeah, so I think when a lot of people hire doulas and they take the classes and they do the things and the birth plan, a lot of those things you have to utilize them well. Okay? We are tools. Doulas themselves are interventions. We are interventions for the system. We are an intervention for you, right? Interventions can also create good outcomes. You can get insurance for your vehicle, but if you are not following the rules of the road and you are not utilizing your car the way you are supposed to, then the insurance is going to be garbage. It's really not going to mean anything. This is the part that people need to realize when they are hiring outside people to come in and help them. There is a certain layer of work that you need to be doing that your doulas cannot do for you. I can't make you not be scared. I can't make you participate in your care. I can't make you make informed decisions. I can't make you have conversations with your provider and ask them to do their due diligence with you. We can't force those things. We can suggest things and we can give you information, but at the end of the day, those decisions are your own and when you make those decisions, they come with benefits and risks. The doulas don't have the magic wand to fix those consequences of certain decisions. We just don't. I think people have that expectation that the doula is going to come in with this cape and everything is going to be good no matter what decisions are made. That's just not how it goes. Then there are people who really do the work. They release the fears. They see the chiropractor. They hire the best provider that they can. They are doing all of the things. They are participating in their care. They are asking the questions. They are doing all of those things. They are staying home as long as they can and then sometimes they still have a C-section. Right? Meagan: Mhmm. It's frustrating. Flor: It's frustrating but it's also a reality of birth that some people just do need C-sections. Sometimes you just don't know why. You don't know why. Sometimes we walk away going, “Fuck. I don't know what the hell happened.” Everything was aligned so great, but we still had a C-section and sometimes it's just a matter of the mammal of their home. I know that is a really hard pill to swallow for a lot of people, but we need to understand that mammals are not inherently built to leave their homes in the middle of labor to go give birth somewhere else in a building with strangers and lights and sounds. Sometimes no matter what you have done, the mammal will not give birth in that environment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flor: It's not going to give birth within the standard practice that are within those systems. They want to see the baby out within a certain timeframe. There is a lot that is happening. Meagan: Yeah, a lot. We've talked about this on the podcast before. When we choose to birth in the hospital which is fine, there is this sense of acclimation that has to happen and sometimes, we don't acclimate properly. It's so weird that sometimes I think about the situation too like when I remodeled my house and my wood flooring had to acclimate well and there was a certain part, there was an actual box. For some reason, it was something weird and it didn't acclimate and it rejected the space. It didn't lay correctly. It didn't work. Sometimes our bodies go in and we don't know why. Sometimes we are tense or whatever and we don't acclimate well or we finally start to acclimate but all of these interventions start to come in and these other people so then our body freaks out again and then it's just a mess. It's just a mess. We can do our best as doulas or birth workers to encourage and motivate, but we really cannot be the deciding factor of you getting induced or not induced or you doing an IUPC or not doing that IUPC. We can't be that deciding factor so if you're listening and you haven't hired a doula or you have a doula, just know that we absolutely want to be there and we love you and we want to help you have a better outcome. We really, really do, wholeheartedly. There have been births where I have walked away bawling actually because I was like, What the hell happened? Then I start questioning what I have done or what I could have done better. That's so hard and that's a whole other conversation for birth workers processing that. In the end, we have to make sure as VBAC parents that we really are willing to put all the work in and accept what's going on and take charge of what's going on. Flor: Mhmm, mhmm. Yeah and also VBAC parents are probably more showing up with the extra layer of fear. We're showing up with so much fear and different layers than someone who hasn't gone through something that was potentially traumatic or a past experience to that degree so there is more, right? This isn't to shit on hospital births. It's not about that because I've also seen plenty of home births go way south. It's not about that. It's about so many things that are not being unraveled. Too many people are showing up to the spaces that don't know what they are doing that are not practicing evidence-based care that are not upholding autonomy, that are not being compassionate, that are not being vulnerable with someone, that are not staying in the moment with the birth, that are doing everything in a medically defensive manner. Everything is judged by risk and that's how we are going to move forward. We see midwives do that all of the time. It's not just the hospitals, right? It's not always just leaving your home. Someone coming into your home with all of their fucking medical equipment and assistance and charts and cell phones and iPads. That's all disturbing too. It's not just the hospitals. There's so much shit that needs to be unraveled here but at the end of it, one person, your doula, cannot save you from all of that. They cannot. They can make some outcomes better. Yes, the research shows us that.But if you think we are going to show up and 100% save you from so many things, that's just not the reality. It's not. Meagan: Yeah, like you said earlier, it can be a hard pill to swallow. Even as a VBAC mom myself, I put a lot of faith and I put my doulas and my midwife on this totem pole over here that was like, “I've got this because they've got me.” That wasn't necessarily the right attitude. It wasn't the right way to enter my birth space. I think I had to process that for a really long time in my 42-hour-long labor and accept that and realize, this is me. This is me. We have to take charge of our birth. But what I think as a doula, one of my biggest messages is that we want to see change. We want to see change in this birth world. There are a lot of things to unravel and change and just fix in this birth world but we are not seeing them happen. So why are we not seeing them happen? Because we are not making the change. That sounds like a lot of pressure on us as birthers, but it is. It is up to us to make the change and until we get out of the status quo and the normal path of what the system wants no matter home birth or not, we're not going to see change. We have to educate ourselves. Flor: Yes. This isn't a thing to shame parents to tell them they are not doing enough or they are not making good decisions. Nobody should ever have to step into figuring out how they are going to birth their baby with having to figure out who is the best provider. You should be able to show up anywhere and be able to have 100% support. Already, that's the problem. We're showing up to these spaces and not getting what we need. Also, what people need to realize is that the things we have now in the birth space like pushing in the positions that you want, talking about physiological birth, and skin-to-skin contact. Those are the things that were stripped from us through the industrialized medical system and we as the people fought for those things back. Meagan: And still have to. Flor: And still have to. Those are not things that, Oh, it's great. They're coming along and giving us all of these things. Everything we have now, you guys, we had to fight back for. It's going to be the same concepts when you are looking to have a VBAC. It's going to be the same concept. You have to participate in your care and I get it. Culture grooms us to just listen to our doctors. That's where the seed is in our foundation. You just listen to the doctor. You are not smarter than them. You don't have a degree. They are the professional and if you don't listen, you don't love your baby enough. Meagan: Yeah, exactly. You don't love your baby enough or you are putting yourself and your baby at risk by making these choices when intuitively, for years, we were birthing off of intuition. We were truly, I believe, birthing from our intuition many, many, many, years ago and we have lost it. It's like someone has stripped our ability to tune into that intuition because like she said, we are so groomed to trust this other area. We lose our intuition but it's so much there. You have it. You have it in your heart and your soul. Your intuition exists. You just have to listen. Sometimes that means going into a quiet place and tuning into what your heart is saying versus what the outside world is saying and burdening in fear. I think that is the biggest part in trying to figure out intuition is, Is this fear or is this my heart saying this? What is right? A lot of people will steer away from home birth when their heart is like, This is where I need to be. My heart is in my home. But for some reason, someone said something so their fear creeps in and now they confuse that with their intuition. Flor: Absolutely. What's the easiest way to get someone to comply? To tell them that they are endangering their baby. That is the quickest and easiest way to get anybody to comply is to give them the threat of their baby dying. Meagan: That's what my second provider told my husband. My second provider used my husband. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy. It was a really super dumb thing that he did but he was really smart. He used my husband against me because that's all I had was my husband with my second, my VBAC attempt, my TOLAC or my CBAC. Yeah. He used him against me. He was like, “Listen. Your wife is not being smart right now. This is not okay. Your baby is at risk.” So what did my husband do? Freak the hell out. “We need to go down and do a C-section. We need to.”But then I didn't have anybody with me. I had everyone against me because that fear, that one comment of, “This isn't good for your baby,” that was it. That was it. That was all that needed to be said. Flor: That's generally all it really takes. But I think if we get to that point with our providers, then the next step needs to be one, stay calm. You need to stay calm. You need to not make that fear a reality in your brain. Your provider has the responsibility to show you the burden of proof. Meagan: That's a powerful message right there. Flor: That's your provider's responsibility right there. They are not supposed to be talking to you without giving you actual, real numbers. By the way, that's what you need to be asking providers when they're saying some shit that is real left field is, “Can you show me the burden of proof? Can you show me the real numbers and evidence to this? That's what I'm looking for.”When we walk into these spaces and we want to say, “I trust my providers,” I think that that's great that you trust your provider, but that doesn't mean that you fail to participate in your care, that you fail to ask the questions, that you fail to make informed decisions, that you fail to say, “Let me see the numbers on that. You're telling me that my rupture rate is 15%. Can you please show me that on paper? And can you please show me out of that 15% rate of rupture how much of that is actually catastrophic which means that me or my baby will die from that?” They will not be able to produce any of those papers because it's not real. It's not real. I always tell people this. Put the same energy into finding out who your partner's exes are. You're figuring out their Facebook. You're looking at their pictures. You found their cousins. You found all this information about your partner's exes. Put that same energy into your providers. Put that same energy into their care. Right? Meagan: You deserve it. Flor: You deserve it. You deserve to have someone on your team who is knowledgeable, isn't going to lie to you, and is continuing to learn and do the research because that is also another big fault of providers is they are not keeping up with the research. They are still doing the same shit they were doing 20 years ago. Meagan: You know, I even think that sometimes when providers see research, it's there. They are given it. It's like, “Well, that's not how it really is,” because that's not how they are practicing. So it's not like, “Wow, I need to make some adjustments in my care.” They just keep going so that's why we have this crazy lack of change. That's why some countries are 10 years ahead of us because we for some reason aren't willing to make change when the facts are provided. Flor: Right. I think especially in the United States, we really glorify licenses and degrees. We glorify people who have this sense of authority over us. It makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside, but why is that? Why is it that we don't feel smart enough to be the head of our own care? Why? Meagan: Why do you think? Flor: It shouldn't be that way. Meagan: No. No. It shouldn't, but it is so easily that way. We just don't. We just don't. Flor: We just don't and I know sometimes it's a cultural difference. Both of my parents are immigrants from Nicaragua so for them to come to the United States and have access to healthcare and have access to get seen by a doctor and to get antibiotics and get help and get x-rays, that's amazing to people who come from a country where they don't have access to stuff like that. I was raised with, “This is amazing. We have doctors here. You should just do what they are telling you because we are just so grateful to have access to this care,” that we are just blindly following what they are saying. I'm the first person in the family to question, “Well, what if this person is wrong?” Meagan: You're the first person in your family? Flor: What if this person is wrong? I'm the first person to really fully participate in my healthcare. That is not in the norm in my family because of the culture that we are immigrants so there is also that layer of where our family's are from and is this new to us? Is having access to healthcare new to your generation in your family? Because that's a whole other layer that you've got to uncover now too. Meagan: Yeah, I actually didn't even think of that. Flor: Yes. Absolutely. Meagan: Wow, yeah. Flor: We're getting ready to have these babies so it's like, you're going to have this brand new little human that you are now going to have to advocate for. Getting on that wheel of participating and advocating prenatally during your pregnancy, your labor, your postpartum, that's all gearing up for you to get ready to advocate for a new human for the rest of your life. If you think you're not going to end up in an ER at some point in time with that child and you're going to have to advocate, you are dead-ass wrong. At some point, you will end up in the ER and have to really ask the questions and not just hand your child over and just do whatever you want type situation. We have to realize that starts now. Meagan: With us being able to advocate and take charge of our own care. You know, I know. I definitely have had the personality in the past and it's still in me. It's still very much in me where I'm like, oh I'm a people pleaser. I'm like, “Sure. Okay fine. It's probably not that big of a deal. Obviously you seem very passionate about that so we will just go along with that.” We're going to say breaking water for instance. A provider comes in and says they want to break your water and you're like, “I didn't want that. I know I didn't want that. That was something I knew I didn't want. It's on my birth plan. I didn't want to break my water, but this provider is saying it. They seem really passionate about it, so I guess I will just back down on that and let it go even though I'm really passionate about it. Sure, go ahead. Break my water.” Flor: Yes. Meagan: Right? But why? Why are we allowing that if it's something that we really, really, really, really don't want, why do we just back down so easily? Flor: There are a few things that are going on here and I think for women in particular, we are raised to people please. We are raised to take care of everybody's needs around us but women in general to people please. Women are raised to not ruffle anybody's feathers, not make anybody upset, give people what they want, and that's our only job so when someone comes into the room and says they need you to x, y, and z, our brains are calculating that as there is a need that has to be fulfilled and I have to fulfill that. But the other thing that is happening here too is that we do have mammalian mechanisms in place to protect us and to help us survive within the wild. So if we have someone coming in who is looking like they are this sense of authority who could potentially feel like a source of threat like a predator to us, the mammal will give in to the predator's demands to avoid further harm. There are layers of mammal instinct that are happening here as well. It's happening on a subconscious level. So this is where a doula will help. The doula is the person who is outside of that who can step in to say, “Hey, I understand that this wasn't part of your plan. Is there any medical reason why this should be happening? Just to speed up the labor isn't a medical reason so I just want to remind you that your birth plan is pretty ironclad so if this is not something that you want to do, I fully support you doing that.” Right? Then we give the benefits, the risks, the information, and then let the parent decide what they want to do. But ultimately, this is a lot of the time what ends up happening. The parent does what the provider says. Meagan: Yeah.Flor: The doula is not going to save you from that. Meagan: No. Flor: We can't. Meagan: It's hard, you guys. Women of Strength, we want to protect you. We want to help you get your birth plan and have that amazing experience that you do deserve and that you have worked hard for, but like she said, we can give you everything as doulas, but then it really is up to you or us as parents to make that ultimate decision and if we do that and just back down because we want to meet that person's need, we then have to deal with what happens after that. We have to accept that. I don't like the work deal. We are going to accept that because that was the choice we made. Flor: Yes. It's the choice that we are doing. Meagan: If we are going to go into a store and steal something, we have to understand that there are repercussions from stealing that item. Whether or not you get caught and you are just feeling guilt or whatever, there are going to be feelings so if we do something just because someone wants us to, then we sit down and we're like, Oh crap. Or if it goes awry, then there's no one else to blame and that's the hardest part as a VBAC parent and a VBAC doula from those two standpoints. It's a hard thing. Flor: It's a really hard thing. As much as we're asking our providers to give us that information and to give us the burden of proof and ask them, “Why are you suggesting this intervention?” It's also important that you have that conversation with yourself. Why am I not choosing to do this or to do this? You also need to ask yourself that because if you are saying yes or no to something, are we saying yes or no out of fear? The thing I see a lot of the time too is that people are completely fucking exhausted. The system has completely dragged them through hell and back just to get to that moment and people are fucking tired. Meagan: Yes. All people, but especially with VBAC. There is this extra layer of pressure to have our baby by certain dates and you have to be a certain centimeter or they won't induce. Or guess what? If you do hit this date, I won't even induce you. You have to have a C-section so we have all of this extra pressure and stress and angst. We're going out and we're trying to self-induce and we're trying to do all of these things. We are so stressed that we are not even able to get our head into a space of relaxing, calm, and willing to hear what our true intuition says because we are so wound up. Flor: We see it all the time in these VBAC groups. I stay in those VBAC groups heavily because I'll tell you what, providers act so fucking wild when nobody's around. When they think nobody's around to watch them, the shit that they say and do, they act so differently then these people come to these Facebook groups and tell us how their prenatal visit went and I'm fucking blown away by the things that they are saying and the things that they are doing and the things that are happening. And also really sad that people don't have the courage to stand up to their providers and to ask the questions and participate in their care. It's really sad to see that this is the place that we are at. I'm always, always seeing, “I have to be in labor by 39 weeks” or “I have to have an induction or I have to have a C-section”. That's the thing I see all the time. All the time. Meagan: You don't have to do anything. Or I see the “Let me”. “They will let me. They will let me.” Women of Strength, if you are this person and you're like, Oh crap. Yep. That's me. That's me saying that. Yep. My provider said they would let me, let's make a change. Let's make a change together. We have to do this as a community together and we deserve it as individuals to take better charge of our care and of our outcomes. Flor: Yeah, this is what this conversation is about. It's about trying to get to a place where we are more participating in our care and getting that better type of care and just asking the simple questions. And even asking for space. If you are just feeling really overwhelmed in the moment and you are feeling like you are about to comply simply out of fear or being stressed, that is the perfect time to say, “I need time to think about this.” Meagan: Yep and your doula can be there for you. If you have a doula, they can be there for you to help hold that space and talk about those things and navigate through what is really being felt and thought in your head. Right? Flor: Absolutely. Meagan: There are so many times and I never want to shame providers or shame anyone. That's not my goal ever in life. I don't like to shame, but at the same time, it drives me nuts when I see a provider come in and they say– it's like they are placing these seeds and then they are watering it with MiracleGro so it grows really thick and hard and then they are coming back in and they are dousing it with MiracleGro again. They come in and say weird things about breaking your water or whatever. You're like, “Maybe. I'll think about it.” You're like, “Yeah. I said no. I pushed it off and put it aside. We're not going to do it right now.” But then they come back in an hour later and are like, “Well, we really want to break your water.” Or now it's the nurse, “Well, the doctor really wants to come in and break your water.” Here's that second pour of MiracleGro so it's growing thicker and harder to resist that root and that seed so you're like, “Oh, no. I still think I want to wait. I really still think I want to wait.” But then the third time they come in and they are like, “Okay, we really think it's best to break your water. You're still hanging out around 6 centimeters. It's probably going to help speed up your labor and get this baby out. You don't want to do this forever. You're going to tire out your uterus.” Then they douse it again and you're like, “Fine. Sounds good.” We can't say no three times, but you can. You can. If that still doesn't feel right that third time, you can still say no. So I think here we are talking about all of the situations but how do we find that confidence? How do you think that we find this confidence to hold our rod and push through and not let it crack? Flor: Mhmm. For once, that starts prenatally. You cannot figure out who the fuck your provider is on the day you give birth. Meagan: You really can't. Flor: You need to participate prenatally. Even just any single little prenatal test. “Can you explain to me why you are suggesting this? What are the benefits? What are the risks? Can you show me the evidence on this?” Any little thing. I don't care if it is a urine exam. Your provider needs to see you participating all the way through and through so they know what to expect from you and what type of client you are actually going to be. That also gives you a good sense of, is this person willing for me to participate? Meagan: Yeah. Flor: Because you're either going to get a provider who goes, “I love that you're asking all of these questions and you're participating in your care and you're gaining knowledge. I love this.” A good provider will understand that that limits their liability if you are knowledgeable. The provider who does not like you asking questions is already a red flag. Meagan: Huge red flag. Flor: Huge. There are lots of times where you will find out who someone is very early on if you start participating there. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Flor: Then once we move to the actual labor, there is a decreased chance of you getting someone who you don't want at your birth. Now, if it keeps getting pressed of this issue of we need to intervene. We need to intervene. We need to intervene and at some point if you've had enough, you say, “Hey, can you put it in my medical chart that I have at multiple occasions made the decision to refuse this intervention and you are continuing to come in here and coerce me? Can you please write that on my medical chart?” Meagan: Yeah, what do you think they're going to do? Flor: They're not going to want to. As much as they use that medical chart for their own liability and their own benefit, you also need to be using that as your own tool. Meagan: Yeah. Flor: Hey, I don't want to discuss this again. Can you please write it in my chart that I'm not willing to discuss this any further? If you have anybody on your team who is just not listening, get rid of them. Why are we so scared to tell someone, “Hey, can you bring me another nurse who is on the staff please?” Meagan: Yeah. We are so vulnerable when we are in labor that we can't seem to find this space of advocating for ourselves to that extent of, Okay, every time this nurse comes in, my blood pressure goes through the roof. I'm clearly feeling a fight-or-flight experience. This is not going to help me or my labor or my baby and definitely not going to help me leave this experience feeling joyful or will cherish for the rest of my life. So if that person is in your space making you feel those things and your body is responding that way– because let me tell you. Our body is a huge factor in what happens and it's a response. We need to listen to it. Flor: It's so smart. Meagan: It is so smart. Flor: So smart. Meagan: If you get the chills every time someone comes in or you can feel your heart race every time someone comes in, that is a flag that someone shouldn't be in your space. That is okay. It is okay. We talked about this with Dr. Fox too with providers. No provider wants to be in a battle either. So if they are not going to be in that space of support and willingness to meet you and let you be a real– and “let” like not fight you against being an advocate for your own birth and being a participant in your own experience, that's not the right provider. And guess what? They probably don't want you as a patient either. And that's okay to say, “You know what? Thank you so much for all you have done and where you have brought me today. I'm going to discontinue care.” Or you can just leave and transfer your records. You do not have to stay or you can say to that nurse or to another nurse or whatever, “I would like to request a new person.” Flor: Yeah. Meagan: Please do not return to my room. We had this a long time ago. I think it was even before COVID, probably in 2018. We had a preeclamptic mom who was already really struggling with blood pressure. She was on magnesium. She felt like garbage. It was her fourth or fifth baby. I can't remember. It was a very stressful time. She was being induced and that was not what she wanted. She did have this nurse who came in. I'll tell you, she made my skin crawl. Everything, just the way she walked in. She didn't have to say a word and you could just feel that negative energy from her body. When she would speak to her and when she was touching her and maneuvering, it was just very aggressive and it was just ick. A lot of ick. I watched her blood pressure. I physically watched her blood pressure because she had to be on blood pressure the whole time. They were taking it every 15 minutes and I watched her vitals go up and then they would still go down and be high but they were clearly down. I started noticing that and I talked to her husband and I said, “Have you noticed this?” He's like, “Yeah.” I've noticed everything about her. She gets anxious. I was like, “Yeah.” We went over and we talked to her and she was like, “I hate her.” She's like, “I do not want her.” I said, “Then let's get rid of her. That's okay.” She said, “Wait, wait, wait. We can do that?” I said, “Yeah.” I went out to the desk and I just said, “Hey, is there any way we can get another nurse to come in here and chat?” She was like, “Yeah,” so she sent another nurse in and the patient was like, “I would really like to request a different nurse. I'm feeling really anxious when this nurse is in here. This is not what I'm needing. This is not the experience I want.” And they were like, “No problem.” We never saw her again, never. I didn't even see her out in the hall. Never. Her birth experience dramatically changed in a positive way in a really crappy situation that she didn't want, but it was a dramatic change and she was so happy. So happy. Flor: Yes. The environment and the vibes in there have to be immaculate. I think that's a part that people don't understand is if you're also having to fight through and through and through throughout the whole labor, I wouldn't expect a baby to want to be born into that environment. You cannot keep thinking of your body as this robot and as this mechanical thing. It is connected to your brain, to your emotion, to the environment, to your partner, the support system, and everything that is happening within the room. Our bodies are not going to release these tiny, little, precious, vulnerable mammals into the wild when the body feels that there are too many predators around and the environment is not safe. I see what happens here sometimes is that someone is fighting a lot throughout the whole labor and then they end up in a C-section and they go, “I just should have had the C-section to begin with because clearly my body doesn't work.” It's like, well no. You weren't even given a fair shot at having a VBAC would be having support through and through. That would be a fair shot, but when you are having someone who is putting you in fight or flight, adrenaline overload, cortisol overload, your pelvic floor is going to tighten up. It is going to go woooop. Meagan: Hold that baby in. Flor: The baby is not going to have the room to navigate, to rotate, to descend. Your body is so smart. I don't think people realize that your body is so smart and intelligent and works so well that it will hold your baby in when your body feels it is not a safe environment to be born. It's not a failure. It's a testament to how well your body actually works. Right? Meagan: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and the medical system really treats us in a way that we failed. Our body failed. Whatever. That's just not the case. It's not the case. It's that our body was brilliant and was responding to a really not awesome experience. Flor: Absolutely. Meagan: It is up to us to continue to advocate so keep doing that, Women of Strength. Advocate for yourself. Push through. Listen. Read the room too. Read your body. If you are feeling anxious, make change. That is where it is up to us to– I hate the word, but at the same time, we can't fail ourselves by not doing anything. If we do nothing, we are failing ourselves. We do not get the education. If we do not put forth the work and the effort, we're not giving ourselves an opportunity. Flor: You're not going to be able to change the outcome that the system is already curating for you. There is already this curation that is happening throughout this whole thing and is expected to end a certain way and you have to be the person that disrupts that curation and to build it to go a whole different direction. It shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be our responsibility. We shouldn't have to go in there and advocate so fucking much. It shouldn't be that way but it's clear right now in 2024 that the system is not doing anything to improve these outcomes. None at all. Zero. So by default, it lands in the parents' lap. By default. Meagan: We're already doing so much so I know that you might even be overwhelmed listening to this episode and be like, Oh my gosh. Now I have to do this too? But you deserve it. Yes. Right now, it's unfortunate that we have to go in and we have to take charge of our own care but we can do it. You can do it. Even if you're a people pleaser, you can do it. You really, really can. Flor: You guys, always remember that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Meagan: I love that. Flor: The squeaky wheel gets the grease so be as loud as you need to. Advocate as much as you need to. Participate as much as you need to because that's the person who's going to get the grease, not the person who is sitting in compliance. Meagan: Yeah. Yep. Women of Strength, thank you for listening with us today. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation. We are very passionate. If you cannot tell, we are very passionate. We want things to be better for you. We want to see change. We as doulas want to advocate for that. We want to help you. We really, really want to help you, but in the end, it's in our laps. We have to push up. We have to keep going. I do think that it's going to take time. Unfortunately, it's probably going to take longer than we want it to, but if we keep advocating for this change and if we keep pushing forward and taking care of ourselves and our babies and all of this, we will slowly see change. We'll see it. It will come. Flor: Yes. You're not just advocating for yourself. You're advocating for all of the people behind you as well. If you're looking at it in the bigger picture as, “Okay, when I'm speaking up for myself, I'm speaking up for thousands of other families,” if you look at it like that, you will have the courage to speak up. Meagan: Yes. There is a listener, she was a VBAC after multiple Cesareans, more than three and everyone was shooting her down. No, no, no, no, no, no. She was like, “Nope. I'm going to do this.” She found the research and decided to go for it and did. She had a beautiful birth and a beautiful experience. Something I told her was, “You just changed that provider's world. You just changed anyone coming in in the future with VBAC after multiple Cesareans because that provider said, ‘You're not going to do this. It's not going to happen. Sure, I'm going to let you try, but it's just not going to happen. It's not possible,'” and then she showed her it was. Providers do hold onto experiences. They do. Sometimes they have to see enough experiences to change their mindest but if we keep pushing forward and showing that this is really okay– just with breech birth. Good golly. Let's get some more breech birth. Let's show these providers that breech is just a variation of normal. We just have to keep going. We have to keep going and it does. It's just bull crap that it's in our laps and we have to do it but we do. Flor: Yeah, it's all of us working together collectively quite honestly. It's all of us together doing our part even if it just feels so minute and so little to you. If every single one of us just did a tiny little spec of work, it's a huge fucking mountain that we are moving together. Meagan: I was just going to say think about how many people are in our communities alone let alone all of the people in the world. It's powerful so believe in yourself. Believe in yourself. You deserve it. You are strong. You are completely capable. Do the work. Do the work. That is something that we do have to do. Do the work. Let's see, what else? What other final message? Flor: Always ask for the burden of proof. Meagan: Yes. Always ask. Flor: I say it all the time, burden of proof. Show me the burden of proof. I want it on paper so I can make an informed decision. Always know that you legally have the right to make those decisions no matter what even if you are saying no to an intervention that could put you or your baby at risk. You still have the choice to say no even when real risk is at the front of your face. Risk is always subjective. That changes from person to person. You have the right to be treated like an actual human and not just a vessel. You matter too. Meagan: Yes. Ask questions. It's okay. It's okay to ask questions. You're not a problem for asking questions just to let you know. It's not a problem if you ask questions. That is something that in my opinion shows strength. If we are willing to ask a question, and it's okay to doubt too. It's okay to doubt. It's okay to be like, “I don't know if I believe that,” and then ask that question or “I've never heard of that. Can you show me the proof or can you show me what the outcomes are for this result?” Ask the questions. Flor: Not just tell me, show me. Meagan: Show me. Flor: I think another leg that people aren't paying attention to is when an intervention is being suggested, really pay attention to if your provider is telling you the benefits and risks of the other side. Meagan: And the alternatives. Flor: Because if they are just telling you one side of the coin, well that's coercive care. That's coercive information. They should be telling you the benefits and risks to each side and the alternatives and then letting you choose. That is competent care. Meagan: Yeah. If they're coming in and they are just telling you the risk of VBAC, we've talked about this. If they're just telling you all the risks about VBAC and they're not even talking about Cesarean, that is a problem right there. We talked about this. It starts prenatally, but I really– if you are not pregnant yet, I encourage you and you're like, Okay, I really want a VBAC, I encourage you to start right now. Flor: 100%Meagan: Find a provider right now. Start getting the education right now. You are in a whole different mind frame than you are going to be when you are pregnant. It's okay if you are starting when you are pregnant. Don't ever not start. But if you are not pregnant right now and it's like, Oh, I'm going to listen. I'm going to get these notes and I'll start when I'm pregnant because I'm not ready yet, I actually think it is a great time to start now. Get the VBAC education. Find the provider. Understand what you are wanting. Understand your rights because it really is a different ball game. Flor: It's a whole different ball game. When you have the luxury of time, take it. Do it because I feel like a lot of people go to get educated right at the end in the last trimester and I want you guys to know something. Your brain functionality starts to decrease at the end of pregnancy. Meagan: You're overwhelmed. Flor: You're not supposed to be using a lot of brain function at the end of pregnancy because your primal birth brain is trying to take over. You trying to learn at a time where your brain function is decreased is not optimal. It is not. You need to get educated absolutely now even if you're like, I'm just not sure if I want to have another baby, get educated. What is the risk to you getting educated? Meagan: Well, and honestly, it's just going to help the next person even if you don't have that baby and your best friend gets pregnant, you're going to help them and you're going to guide them in the right direction to help them get educated. You're going to help change. It's those minute changes that we are doing in life that are going to make a huge impact. Flor: Huge impact. Absolutely. Make sure that your partners are showing up with you because it is not going to be doable if your partner is showing up just to sit in the corner and be fearful and not understand things, not be educated, not know how to advocate, not know what questions to ask, they will not be of any help to you. You need someone who is going to show up in that same brain capacity and be able to hand it over to them essentially because you shouldn't be doing any type of fucking thinking during the labor. Meagan: Right? I mean, look at what happened to me. It went straight on to my husband and he was like, “I don't know,” and it was just like, “No, we've got to go. We've got to go.” It was awful. It was awful. It was really, really hard and it was something that I made sure was not going to happen again. We are not going to do that again. We are going to make sure that you are okay with this and that you understand so when someone just comes in and says this one little fear tactic, you don't just crumble to the floor. Flor: Absolutely. Absolutely. These partners have got to start showing up in a different way. They just cannot leave all of these childbearing things up to the person who is pregnant. One, it's not fair. Two, it's not adequate enough. Meagan: We can't. Flor: It's not adequate enough. I can't tell you how many times people are like, “I ended up in a C-section and I feel like it wsa all my partner's fault. They pushed me to do it. They didn't help me at all. They didn't advocate. They didn't even show up to the classes and I just feel like it's all their fault or they wanted me to hurry up and get it over with.” Meagan: I mean, I love my husband to absolute pieces. I told this story before how when I told him I wanted a VBAC after two C-sections, he was like, “What? What? No. Let's just go unzip you.” He said that word, you guys. He said that word. He said, “Let's just go unzip ya.” That is not okay. He was so far away from understanding and I had to really reel him in. We get it. These partners are also scared. They are scared. They don't know. They are vulnerable too. It's not just you. It's also their baby that they care about. They hear the negative things out there in the world and they see the word “uterine rupture” and they're like, “Oh my gosh, no. I can't.” Or they're like, “We're out here. We're providing. We can't do that childbirth education. We can't do those VBAC courses,” but really, it's so important because they have to be there with you. They are your rock too. They are your rock. You have to have them. I'm going to tell you. In labor, you can't always be 100% in your mind. Flor: You shouldn't be either. Meagan: Yeah, well because we are laboring. We need to focus on getting a baby here and we can't be thinking about all of the things that we need to be asking the next time the provider comes in. That is where a doula can help and can help encourage your partner. “Hey, these are some things to ask next time,” and help but it helps even more if they have done the work and they are with you. They are with you in this journey. Flor: Yes, they have to be with you and understanding that you and the baby are a diad. You are one. You are not separate from each other. When you do well, the baby does well. When you don't do well, the baby doesn't do well. It's one person. You are one unit. They are not separate from each other. Partners really need to understand that and also really think about what type of energy you are putting into these statistics and the numbers because if a provider is telling you, “You have a 0.7% chance of rupturing,” okay. So there's a 99% chance I'm not going to. How different does that sound? Meagan: Let's flip that. We talk about that on the podcast too. Let's flip it. Let's start focusing on those little tiny numbers on the chance that you do, it's important to know that, but let's flip it and look at it like, “Okay, so I have a 98-99% chance of not rupturing.” Flor: Right. Meagan: Okay. Okay. That feels good. I think that's a good risk right there. I'll take that. Flor: Exactly. Exactly. Obviously, it's not up to us to be in charge of pulling our partners out of that fear. That shouldn't be our responsibility, but it's okay to look your partner in the face and say, “This is what I'm needing from you. This is what I'm wanting and these are the reasons why and I'm the person who has to give birth to this baby and I'm the person who has to recover for the rest of my life with how this birth turns out. Me.”Right? When I showed up for my VBAC, I went in thinking my husband was going to fight me on it so I showed up like, “Listen. We're going to have a fucking VBAC. I don't give a shit what you're going to say.” I showed up ready to fight. Meagan: We actually did get in a fight at a restaurant because I was like, “This is what's going to happen. We're going to have this many people and by the way, I'm actually not going to birth in the hospital either.” He was like, “What the hell?” I was like, “It's going to happen.” I was like, “You're going to have to meet me right up here. I'm not coming down here. You're going to have to meet me up here.” And I'm so grateful that he did. I really am so grateful and honestly, it changed him. It changed his perspective. It changed his narrative of birth. He was like, “Oh wait, yeah no. We would never do it any other way. That was amazing.” Flor: Right? Luckily for me, my husband didn't fight me. I went in guns blazing thinking he was going to but he was like, “Look. You're the one who's pregnant. You're the one who has to give birth. Whatever you choose, I'm on board. I will support you and I trust whatever decision you make. I can't tell you what to do,” so then I felt like a jerk after. Meagan: My husband was too. He did put his two cents in of, “Oh, so you're just going to choose the most expensive option?” That was what he said in the end, but in the end he was like, “Okay, cool. We're going.” We know. We know. We see it. I've done so many consultations with people where they are like, “My husband is just not on board and I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do.” I think one of the very first things that I suggest is to educate them because they are usually making those quick no's and they're very against it because they are just uneducated and they are scared. Flor: Yeah. That's generally where it's coming from is a lack of education and following that thread of fear. Those shouldn't be the places where someone is making that decision. Someone should get educated and then we'll discuss what you think and what your opinion is. Know that it's just that. It's an opinion and it's not going to be the detour of what I'm going to do with my birth. It just shouldn't be that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Flor: We already live in such a patriarchal system as it is. I've seen lots of partners saying no to doulas being on board. Meagan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Flor: Why? Meagan: My husband was one of those. My husband was one of those. He was so anti-doula and his reason was, “Well, I don't want to be replaced.” I was like, “It's not like that,” with my second. It is not like that at all. It just was so hard and we didn't have a doula and we ended up in a repeat Cesarean. I'm not saying I ended up in a repeat Cesearean because I didn't have a doula but I definitely wish I had some of that extra support when things were turned on me and someone to help him understand too but there are so many other things with that birth. I was with the wrong provider. That's what it was. I just didn't make the full change for myself. Flor: The thing with that too is that a lot of men do not show up for women fully 100% because there's really not a lot of opportunities where they do show up to be 100% there for their partners. Birth is one of those spaces where they need to do that and they're not used to that. They're not used to showing up to that capacity of really not centering themselves. Meagan: Yep. Flor: What is this doula going to take away from me? What is being at home going to take away from me? What is this going to require? That is someone centering themselves instead of looking at the situation and saying, “What is it that you need from me? How can I help you? How can I help you be most comfortable? I want you to be as happy as possible in this situation.” That's the type of energy that we need people to show up to the birth for. Stop centering yourself. It's not about you. When it's your turn to give birth, then we will do whatever you want to do, but until that time comes, it's about me. Meagan: You've got to come up here. Yeah. Flor: It's about me. Meagan: It is about you, Women of Strength. We love you. We love you. Like I said in the beginning, we see you. We hear you. We feel you. Literally, from one VBAC mom, two VBAC moms to another, we understand. We are with you in this journey. We are cheering you on. This message today is to hopefully motivate you, educate you, plant a seed or whatever you want to take it as, give you the motivation or the oomph to do what's best for you truly. Truly do what's best for you and let's change the narrative. Flor: Yep. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands