The Current Podcast

With websites covering topics like entertainment (ScreenRant), gaming (Polygon) and automotive (CarBuzz), Valnet caters to users across a wide array of interests.But according to Ji Heon Kim, Valnet's head of monetization, Valnet realized it could create more value for its users by encouraging them to subscribe or authenticate themselves.Maybe a “mass scale” of users wouldn't sign up for their websites, but perhaps 10% would. And, as Kim puts it, that “10% would still be valuable, and we can do a lot with that 10%.”“We created more value to [those] users, more exclusive content and high-quality content,” Kim says. “All of that became an initiative on the content side for us to deliver a premium model and give users an incentive to sign up.”Kim further talked with The Current Podcast about balancing advertiser value, user experience and performance, which he says are “always affecting each other.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler, and welcome to The Current Podcast. Today we're talking to one of the biggest digital publishers. You might not know by name, but you've definitely read their stuff. I'm talking about Net. The company behind Screen Rant, the Gamer, Kaleida make use of, and a bunch of other sites that rack up hundreds of millions of sessions every month. Joining me today is Ji Kim Valnet's, head of monetization. Ji'S been leading the charge on everything from supply path optimization to first party data to figuring out how to drive real revenue without compromising the reader experience. We'll get into some of the big shifts they've made in their tech stack and how they're bringing newly acquired brands like Polygon into their ecosystem and what other publishers can learn from their approach.Ji Kim (00:52):At Valnet, I'd like to think of us as a publishing powerhouse. We started very small. Our motto is humble and hungry. We like to remind ourselves that it's always good to keep a humble mindset. I've been at NET for 10 years and we've grown tremendously. We've went through a lot ups and downs, but even as we grow, we like to think that we're small and agile and the publications we range from automotive, gaming, technology, entertainment, but entertainment has always been our flagship, but we've been kind of branching outside of that and trying to expand more and more. And then we have some lifestyle brands as well as sports.Damian Fowler (01:35):Let's talk about a moment that changed the game for Net. Can you walk us through your, I guess we're going to talk about supply path optimization at first anyway, which is a hot topic around these parts and what work you did around supply path optimization, like cutting resellers and boosting direct inventory. Could you talk us through that a little?Ji Kim (01:57):It's an ongoing process. It's certainly, I think most people agree that SPO is not an easy thing to achieve. You can commit to it one shot, but that's much harder to do considering that there will be a revenue impact. So for us, we tried both ways. We took a few sites and we took the direct approach and we saw a pretty decent stability, and then some other sites did not, and then we have to kind of revert back to it. SPO, it was always a topic that was talked about but not well enforced. And tradedesk took a big initiative to push publishers towards it. And then we started working closely with Jounce Media as well, with Chris Kane started kind of talking through some of the ideas, how should we go about it? How do we retain the value and still achieve removing the resale alliance and keep our inventory as clean as possible?(02:51):But initially our outlook of SPO was about making our inventory as clean and transparent as possible. Net considers ourselves as a premium publisher and we want to make sure that the advertisers see that as well. So we were heading in that direction. But ultimately, I think the biggest challenge with SPO was it's impossible to do an AB test because you have one A TXT file and you can't test one setup with the resell alliance, one setup without. So that's been pretty challenging to understand where's the value going, where is it coming from? And even with the Resell Alliance, when you talk to the SSPs with Resell Alliance, they'll go, oh, these are PP deals. These are not just rebroadcasting and all this stuff. So trying to understand the granularity and all that details of what each resale align means was very difficult. But ultimately we know we have to go in that direction, but we know it's not going to happen overnight, so we're kind of just taking a step at a time.Damian Fowler (03:51):That's great. What would you say was the kind of catalyst or moment that sparked that shift?Ji Kim (03:57):We always talked about advertiser value. It is important to yield as much value as possible and get the performance that we need. We always think that advertiser value is important, and when we think about that, it's like you go through stages. You go, okay, viewability needs to be important. Let's get viewability up to above standard, above average, make sure our CTR is good, but it's high quality clicks. It's not just users just clicking on stuff. Then you go through the lines and eventually you get to SPOs. Make sure that advertisers know what inventory they're getting access to, what they're buying, and make sure that they're getting insights. The transparency is there. Then we've increased the value of our inventory.Damian Fowler (04:46):Yeah, I mean that's the key, right, obviously. And speaking of that, having made these changes, are you in a position to be able to see the kind of impact that they've had from a revenueJi Kim (04:58):Perspective? Honestly, I don't think I can everything, especially with these kinds of stuff, what I've learned is it doesn't change overnight. Let's say we remove all the reseller lines yesterday. Today, likely the performance is going to drop initially and maybe things recover over time, but there's so many moving parts that it's hard to associate the value towards SPO, and that's a lot of things that we do in this industry. But I think that's when we like to look at it as, you know what? Ultimately we are improving the quality of our inventory, so we will get rewarded at some point. And that's how you move forward. But with SPO, I think the other side is that it's not just about removing reseller lines. You also have to market yourself and tell the advertisers that, Hey, we have gone in this direction. We have removed the reseller lines. All of our inventory is direct. It's clean. And that part is also hard to do. We haven't spent a lot of time or resources into marketing ourselves, and that's why we talked about, people may not know net, but they know our brands. It's the same thing. It's like we are now making a big push to let people know who Val net is, and that's going to go in hand in hand with this stuff.Damian Fowler (06:21):In terms of that messaging around the surgery as it were you're doing on the supply path, does that land well with advertisers?Ji Kim (06:32):I think it's always positively looked at when you tell them, it's like everybody, it is never negative, but I don't know if actually if it's meaningful for them because at scale, they're buying at scale. So yeah, we're a big publisher, but they're also buying at multiple publishers. Maybe only small portion of their budgets come to us. So it's positive, but I don't know if it's all that meaningful to them. At least that's what I've felt.Damian Fowler (07:04):So in addition to the SPO, what other tweaks or changes are you as head of monetization looking at to basically bring in those ad dollars and keep readers satisfied, I suppose?Ji Kim (07:17):Yeah, so there's three things. So we looked at the advertiser value, but then there's the user experience and then the performance side. So always those three things, there's constantly affecting each other. Ad density is probably one of the biggest part of advertiser value and performance and user experience. So we are constantly trying to reduce our density, and we look at this metric impressions per session and request per session. So we look at that and injections our injections based on content length, a paragraph breaks and all that stuff. So we'll try to work with the content team to create optimal breaks. I'll have a little sit down session with the content team. The leads say, okay, this is how the admin injection works, and how you break out your content really does impact, because we won't break a paragraph in half to inject an ad. So there needs to be natural breaks for the ads to inject. So if you have massive paragraphs, we're going to have less ad injections, which is fine if the content works like that, but they also need to think about how all this stuff works.Damian Fowler (08:26):That's really interesting. I mean, I think that sweet spot between not being the Vegas strip, but also ads have to populate at the right time to have value.Ji Kim (08:35):For net, we've focused mostly on open market programmatic spend. We have a small direct initiative. This is something that we've been trying to grow, but when you don't have huge direct sales initiative and direct spend coming in, you kind of need the density because the CPMs that you get from open market is much lower. So we want to try to move away from that as much as possible. I don't think found that will ever be a publisher where we drive like 50% of the revenue from direct sales, but we want to grow it to maybe 15, 20%. And once we do that, we can yield higher CPMs, which allows us to reduce the density, which would be better for advertiser value, better for user experience, and we'll still get the performance that we need to kind of go forward.Damian Fowler (09:24):So it's a balance.Ji Kim (09:25):Yeah. Yeah. I think if we can drive higher CPMs, we would love to reduce density, but it's always the constant battle between the two of, okay, well we reduced density. Oh, we went too far. Okay, we got to bring it back a little bit.Damian Fowler (09:38):How difficult is it to kind of innovate in ad tech? This is a broader question, I guess given how fast things are changing, especially on the programmatic front,Ji Kim (09:47):It's been very, very difficult. Rapidly changing environment is definitely one of them, and you have to adapt quickly. For example, the video definition of having instream outstream, and then now there's a third definition of accompanying that stuff. When it happened, the enforcement happened quickly, so we had to adapt quickly, and that's difficult. But innovating is, I think, much more difficult than just adapting to the new policies and new rules. So many different ways to innovate pre, for example, you have the open source code, you build that, but there's so many customizations that you can do and even a single customization, you interpret how you should approach that topic and how you should build your tech. So you kind of have to talk to your developers and walk through. And our biggest challenge I would say was bridging the gap between developers and ad ops. I was like, because I am an ad ops guy, I understand programmatic landscape very well, but our developers do not. And I'm not a developer, I'm not a technical guy. Obviously through 10 years I've learned a lot of stuff, but still, if I needed to build something, I'm not going to be able to tell them exactly how to build it. So you need somebody in the middle that understands both sides,(11:03):And that was the most difficult part. And eventually we did find resources that they were able to bridge that gap and were able to build stuff. But ultimately, there's just so many different ways to build your product and you want to make sure that product that you build or tech stack that you build is going to keep that balance that you need between the user experience, the performance, and the density, everything that pertains to page speed as well. If you build it to be too slow, everything gets affected as well, and that's harder to tell. So yeah.Damian Fowler (11:37):So how have some of these technical changes influenced your broad and monetization philosophy?Ji Kim (11:43):Yeah, so I guess one of the things, if we talk about authentication, we talk about cookie deprecation and why authentication became so important to majority of the publishers. And I remember our thought process around authentication was pretty pessimistic, I would say. But eventually we said know what? We can create content or value for the users that's going to want them to sign up and want them to get authenticated. And we said we got to start somewhere. Ultimately, maybe we've become a little bit more realistic about what critical mass of a value would be if we're at, if we're expecting 50% of users will log in, that's not going to happen, but 10% is still very meaningful. So it was about our philosophy was changing, about our expectations changing and still understanding that 10% could be very valuable and we can do a lot with that 10%. So we created more value to the users are more exclusive content, high quality content, high quality videos. All of that stuff became an initiative on the content side for us to deliver the premium model and to give users the incentive to authenticate a sign up on.Damian Fowler (13:03):That's really interesting. I think one of the things that also I'm hearing is that you kind of have different audiences, but you're getting to understand your audiences. I mean, this strategy gives you more insight into who's coming.Ji Kim (13:15):Yeah. We also created what we call threads. They can talk about the article, talk about topics that we're discussing, and that really improved our engagement.Damian Fowler (13:30):As you look to the future, how do you think about, as it were, locking in some of these changes and this value that you see from this audience?Ji Kim (13:40):So I want to go back a little bit about innovating and how difficult it is. So I went through the stages of, okay, what am I focusing on to optimize to yield more value? And initially it was demand. Okay, we want to work with as many high quality as P as possible, but then you do work with all of them. There are going to be going to be one or two that come here and there, but generally speaking, they're not going to create incremental value. They'll just take a piece of pie that was taken by somebody else, not meaningful value. Then you work on ad tech innovation, all that stuff, and that we'll continuously work on that, but that also has lots of limitations, and you eventually reach a plateau point of say, you're not going to find a lot low hanging fruits. So now we come to premium inventory, which we need to learn our users, we need to learn who they are so we can offer these users to our advertisers to grow our PMP programmatic direct, as well as your conventional IO based direct deals that's going to yield as higher CPMs.Damian Fowler (14:53):Yeah, I mean, talk of premium inventories is characteristic of the moment we are in when it comes to programmatic sales for publishers.Ji Kim (15:02):Yeah.Damian Fowler (15:04):Let's draw back and look at the big picture and some of the kind of industry context. I guess think I'm correct in saying Valnet reach has more than 400 million sessions a month across its network. That's correct. And how do you think about that, that kind of scale when every property has its own audience profile and publishing rhythm?Ji Kim (15:30):Yeah, it's sometimes a bit overwhelming how much reach our sites have, but I always try to look at it as our advantage, and this is the opportunity that hasn't been tapped into, is that okay, we're 95% of our inventory is sold in the open market, and we have so much data that we could collect and leverage in order to drive higher value. And it's just looking at it, it's overwhelming, but you start to see the real value that hasn't been tapped into, and that's exciting, but it's also very, very difficult to manage all that information, manage that data, and use it properly. So yeah, I mean it excites me, but also I know how challenging it can be to create value through that. So we're taking one step at a time, even first party data collection. I wouldn't say we're crazy sophisticated, but we're keeping it a level that we know how to manage and understanding it well first and then starting to kind of grow a step-by-step.Damian Fowler (16:45):Yeah, I mean, I suppose the whole back and forth about third party cookies may have provided a spark. I know it lit a fire under the industry. Speaking of first party data, so that is a focus for you?Ji Kim (16:56):Yes, yes. But I believe when it was really a huge focus for the industry was when Google had first announced that they're going to deprecate third party cookies, and we had the initial moment of, oh, you know what? We also need to look into this, but we didn't want to panic. Our outlook was, I'm sure everybody went through the initial panic. We did too, but we didn't want to stay in that moment. And we said, okay, what's realistically going to happen for publishers like us? How much first party data can we collect and really sell because we don't have a huge direct sales initiative? And at that point we had none. And you can't grow direct sales overnight. It's a highly competitive environment, and you're entering that new market. You have to build relationships, you have to have crazy amount of salespeople that are constantly going out there representing balance inventory.(17:55):And we weren't set up for that, and we weren't willing to just fully invest everything into growing that at the time. So we said, well, maybe first party data isn't as important. Collecting first part data isn't as important as just understanding how to go about direct sales. So that's what we worked on. We've hired salespeople, we enter that space. I was very naive about how direct sales worked, and now we have a better understanding. We have good salespeople that understand our values as well. We don't want to just go out and sell anything and everything. We want to understand the creative types that we're also selling isn't going to impact user experience horribly and negatively. The high impact guys, the site scans when they're done, right, it's great user experience, but it could also go the other way. So we wanted to build a baseline first, and that's what we did the last few years. And now we can go after the first party data in a more sustainable way for us.Damian Fowler (18:56):Let's talk about your acquisition of Polygon from Vox Media. Speaking of inventory that expands the real estate, how does that property fit into what you're doing?Ji Kim (19:07):So Polygon, obviously, we go through a lot of due diligences. We look at different opportunities, and Polygon was an easy one to go through because we knew Polygon has great content, it has a great foundation of creating high quality content. But the difference was that Fox has a lot of direct sales. I can't remember the exact number, but it could have been 75%, 80% of their revenue was generated, direct sold inventory, and then 20% was open market. And for us, it would've been the other way around, flipped around even less. Maybe 95% open market, 5% directive. Initially when we acquired it would've been a hundred percent open market, but that's also why it excite us because it's a premium inventory that doesn't get seen in the open market. Open market buyers don't see the bid requests coming from that website as much. So we're super happy, but we knew this was a high quality inventory, high quality website, and we knew that there was a very small chance that it was going to go poorly.Damian Fowler (20:20):Interesting. When you buy a property like that, you're actually buying an audience to a certain extent.Ji Kim (20:25):Yeah, absolutely.Damian Fowler (20:27):Do you think about audiences as discreet to the publications or do you see crossover?Ji Kim (20:34):Crossover? Yeah, lots of crossover.Damian Fowler (20:37):Yeah. Alright. So I guess the big question here is for other publishers looking to upgrade this strategy that we're talking about, especially in this very complex environment, which is something you clearly understand very deeply, what's one piece of advice that you might offer?Ji Kim (20:54):I think you have to think about realistically what you should go after, what opportunities you should go after. So many things that come up right now, I think the big thing is curated media. And on our end, a lot of the SSPs and DSPs are doing the work for us. They going out and curating our inventory for us, and that's fine. But if you were to go after that and trying to grow it, but you don't really have the resources, it's easy to just kind of see everybody, what everyone else is doing, like, oh, I want a piece of that too, but it's not going to yield the value. Same value if you don't have the right resources in place if you're not focused on that opportunity. So my advice would be to understand which opportunities realistically are you able to get and have the right resources who are going to be passionate about that. Take accountability. That's huge, the accountability part. And that's not something you can just kind of force people. You have to believe that this person that's taking on this project can be really passionate and sink their teeth into it. If you got that, then go after those things. But it's too hard to go after every single opportunity there is. Even if seemingly it seems like a low hanging fruit. Nothing is really that simple in this industry.Damian Fowler (22:15):That's for sure. So finally, we're going to wrap this up with some what we call hot seat questions. So what's one thing you're obsessed with figuring out right now?Ji Kim (22:27):How to yield more value? No, no, no. I'll give a better answer than that right now. For me, it's how to grow direct sales sustainably and scale it in a way that we don't get too bloated. Because through acquisitions, one of the most valuable things that I get is insight. I get to see under the hood of a lot of publishers, small to medium to large, how they operate, what is their strategy and direct sales. I've learned some of the big publishers do it extremely well. It's a well-oiled machine, it's not bloated. They generate a ton of revenue, but some have a huge cost, and that's what we were afraid of. And right now it's very hard to do. So you need the right sales team, you need the right operational guys, you need account representation, you need reporting guide and all this stuff. And right now I am trying to find a way to scale it, but without having massive costs, just kind of take over and then expect this to yield value in the next year or two. I want that line to kind of grow together. And that's not an easy thing to do, obviously. And I'm looking for the right resources. I'm looking to build relationships with agencies with limited guys, just hustle through it and offer them our inventory, charm them, whatever it may take. But yeah, that's what I'm currently obsessed.Damian Fowler (24:01):Okay. What's still missing in the ad tech stack that you wish someone would build?Ji Kim (24:07):I don't know if this would fall under their ad tech stack, but I think we could really benefit from a bit more standardization around, it could be reporting and creatives. Maybe I'm speaking out of line because I'm on the inventory side, so I don't know everything that goes on the buy side and the creative side. But what I see is that there's so many different creatives that just either break the page, the creative's broken, it's too heavy, it slows down the page, and it's hard to target those and remove those. It can come through so many different channels. So if there is a bit more standardization around what kind of creatives are acceptable, I'm sure there is some or a standard already, but it needs to be honed in a bit more maybe.Damian Fowler (25:00):What's one thing advertisers misunderstand about monetizing Publish it inventory today?Ji Kim (25:08):So I thought about this and something that it's more of my frustration around advertisers perspective. I understand it, but a bit more frustration because it's hard to create context around it, which is brand safety. I understand the brand side. I advertise side on why they wouldn't want to associate their brand with certain content, but brand safety is police by keyword list and it's very restrictive. And some of the,Damian Fowler (25:37):It's one toolJi Kim (25:38):And it's like, okay, and we have gaming sites that will, a lot of gaming, natural will talk about shooting, but some of the game developers won't want to associate with those articles. And it's like, hang on, hang on. Now you bet you guys also have games that are first person shooter or whatnot. You don't want to associate with those type of articles. There's a bit of a mismatch, and I think it's just hard to manage that. So they go with a broader approach and I get it, but I think it's just there needs to be more about understanding the context of certain articles. And it's like the word shooting can be anything, everything. Right?Damian Fowler (26:22):Yeah, I like that. I've been hearing more about a shift from brand safety to brand suitability, which brings in the concept of context. What's something unexpected you've learned from reader data or behavior recently?Ji Kim (26:39):So I wouldn't say it's recent, but it's something that's surprises me how the smallest change that I, from my perspective is like, is that really going to do anything? But at our scale, the numbers changed so drastically. Recently we were playing around with the video size because our outstream unit will float once the user are scrolling and the size of that unit. Obviously we want to give advertiser value, so we want to make it as big as possible. But then user experience wise, it could be very bothersome because as they're trying to read, there's a video playing. So we want to keep mindful of that. And we're constantly testing the size of that unit and we decreased by 10% and 10%. While it's significant, if you look at the actual size of the unit to the naked eye, you really wouldn't be able to tell what the difference is. But the CTR of that video unit changed drastically. It was cut in half, actually. And that's the thing is like, okay, users are really sensitive to these things. And to me it's not, maybe I'm looking at it too often, but that's always, that boggles my mind and it always catches me by surprise when I see the numbers is like, wow, I did not expect that. I did not expect users to behave this way.Damian Fowler (28:00):That's amazing. The details really matter.Ji Kim (28:02):Yeah, Big time. Damian Fowler (28:03):And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week. The Current Podcast is produced by Molten Hart. A theme is by Love and Caliber, and our associate producer is Sydney Cairns. And remember,Ji Kim (28:21):I like to think of us as a publishing powerhouse. We started very small. Our motto is humble and hungry. We like to remind ourselves that it's always good to keep a humble mindset.Damian Fowler (28:34):I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

In this episode of The Current Podcast, hosts Damian Fowler and Ilyse Liffreing sit down with Amy Lund, VP of integrated marketing and corporate communications at E. & J. Gallo Winery, to talk about Barefoot's bold move to become the official wine sponsor of the NFL.

In this episode of The Current Podcast, we're joined by Rob Bradley, SVP of digital revenue, strategy and operations at CNN International Commercial. He shares how CNN has evolved far beyond its broadcast roots — and how it's now helping brands tell more impactful stories across everything from connected TV (CTV) and free ad-supported television (FAST) channels to TikTok and LinkedIn. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're thrilled to be joined by Rob Bradley, the senior vice rresident of Digital Revenue Strategy and Operations at CNN International Commercial.Damian Fowler (00:18):Now, Rob has played a key role in CNN's evolution over the last 10 years from a broadcast powerhouse into a cutting edge digital platformIlyse Liffreing (00:26):That includes launchpad, CNN's AI powered advertising tool that's been driving smarter, more targeted campaigns for nearly a decadeDamian Fowler (00:35):From global banks to tech giants like Samsung and even government launchpad has helped brands show up on CNN's platform in ways that are both innovative and effective.Ilyse Liffreing (00:45):So in this episode we'll explore that journey, how launchpad got its start, what it's become today, and how CNN is helping advertisers navigate a complex digital world using deep audience insights and data at scale.Damian Fowler (01:00):So let's get into it. So Rob, let's start by talking about Launchpad. Not everyone's familiar with it, but it's been designed to help brands market themselves to CNN's audience. So I know it's eight years old. Can you talk about the tool and how it's evolved to this point?Rob Bradley (01:19):Yeah, I mean, to take a step, media companies and news brands today need to be so much more than just a platform where someone can serve a traditional ad to reach an audience. Of course we do that and embrace that, but our audience exists in a multitude of different environments. Now, of course, o and O, which can be TV to digital assets, websites, but of course Fast and CTV now. And of course they're all across social, which means that when we're working with brands today, we need to have tools that enable us to reach audiences in all of those environments. Essentially our clients expect that from us. So we have to innovate to be in those places. And also of course, by utilizing areas our audiences exist in today such as social, it means we get a broader reach. So we try and of course a lot of brands are nervous about social, and of course we do compete somewhat, but I like to flip it on its head and think about how can we use audiences on off platform environments to our advantage?(02:16):So launchpad essentially is a good example of that. It's an in-house social media agency, essentially utilizes latest talent. I would say. I think people do come first that really understand the latest technology to help us understand our audiences both on and off platform. That did launch really just reaching audiences in places like Facebook, but now it's across all the meta platforms, YouTube, LinkedIn, TikTok, and more. And over the years that team, through utilizing technology, have automated processes. We understand sentiment of what people are consuming, how they feel against our content that we distribute both on and off platform. And then we use those insights to indeed empower the next piece of creative, let's say. And it feeds into our brand studio, which is called CNN Create, which actually touches about 70% of our campaigns now. So it's all about the way we go to market is really about selling stories and content and then utilizing the impressions and volume of scale we have around that in a smart way.Ilyse Liffreing (03:15):And today, CNN Parent Company, Warner Brothers Discovery has only massively grown since the launch of launchpad and has so many touchpoint and audience insights. You have the entirety of the Harry Potter world and DC comments to seen in news. How do you make sense then of all that data and how does it come together to benefit a launchpad campaign?Rob Bradley (03:41):So first of all, I'd say there's still a job to do and an opportunity of gathering all that together because there's so many touch points that both can power the marketing of movies that say as well as the targeting of campaigns. And those targeting of campaigns can of course be owned and operated environment. So again, we can push audience insights into social platforms to target through tools like launchpad, but ultimately by understanding who our audiences are means that we can do three things. We launched a product called WBD AIM basically, which was actually born out of CNN, used to be CNN aim, and it stands for Audience Insight Measurement. And really it means that of course we talk about targeting quite a lot, that's where the rubber meets the road. But really as a severe successful media company today, you need to go to market with insight led sales.(04:29):So use that data to inform sales to the clients, proving upfront why you've got the right audience and why they should trust you. And then of course there's the targeting the audience piece, and then there's the measurement of proving what you have done has worked. And so that aim piece all comes together as one kind of data play. And where we have had success of bringing that together so far internationally is CNN Eurosport D plus in the UK and TNT Sport in the UK now exists in one platform. And also of course that's really good for programmatic as well. We can push those audience insights, put them into the marketplace and enable brands to buy programmatically against that. So very much in the programmatic space, we're aiming at the more premium PG programmatic direct marketplace.Damian Fowler (05:16):Can I just ask you off the back of that, do you see news as part of that whole package or it's not a sort of siloed separate piece of what you are offering?Rob Bradley (05:27):Yeah, that's a really good question. I think if you are a brand that wants an engaged audience and you want to be part of a conversation that's happening today or drive a conversation, news obviously makes sense. But of course I wonder if this is where you're going. News environments are challenged at the moment in some respect. There is a prevalence of I think, unfair news avoidance in the industry, particularly with very blunt keyword block lists that are being used, which is pretty well covered in the press and that is a major challenge. However, sports has a similar issue, right? Because words like shoot and shot and attack are used all the time just as though are news. So actually sometimes if people think of news straightaway, but there's a broader issue with that. And the reason why I mention that because actually news and sports is both live, it's what's happening today, it's audiences certainly where we sell it can be sports enthusiasts across both platforms at the broader end, it can be business decision makers, it can be C-suites, it can be high net worths bringing those audiences and ultimately linking it to what WBD has an abundance of is very premium, very trusted, very brand suitable environments you could say.(06:39):And that marketplace of WBD and WBD Connect is the programmatic marketplace will keep growing.Ilyse Liffreing (06:47):Now you talked about how your bridging basically social to programmatic. Have you seen one success in that so far and interest from the brands you've been working with?Rob Bradley (07:00):I think it's basically it was quite an early adopter of programmatic in the belief that it enables the human led work media owners to grow. And that has been proven in embrace technology to do what it does well, highly scaled targeted impressions that started on the website that say ever increasing on CTV and FAST for us, joining all that together, putting our own data into those environments, trying to work at the premium end of it so that we get the yield up and really embracing the technology to do that married with what only we can do best, which is linking directly with a brand, understanding a brand on their agency. In many markets we go brand direct though really understanding what their challenges are and what stories they've got to tell. And then coming up with this multi-platform strategy that can include programmatic maybe at the mid funnel or the performance end, but also linking it to a full multi-platform strategy, which may include CTV, fast Web and tv. And actually 80% of our direct campaigns include all of those platforms and include that social piece. And I think the reason why I've sort of spoken about social in is I think people often wonder about how we can utilize it to make money, but actually it's a really important part of our business where we're kind of using the best of what programmatic can offer, the best of what social can offer and then the best of storytelling.Ilyse Liffreing (08:27):Yeah, perhaps I would love to hear about a brand that perhaps you guys have been working with and how you are really measuring that success. I'm curious if any platform or audience perhaps outperformed your expectations.Rob Bradley (08:43):Sure. Well, I spoke about linking CNN storytelling that could have social impact in some way or drive conversations or change opinions. And that is when we have a really strong partnership with the brand, that's what we do for them. Really it's about how can we change perhaps a view or input a view into someone's mind that they may not have had about a brand based on facts or something that brand is really genuinely doing to try and make the world a better place beyond just perhaps selling a product. So CNN Embarks on a really bold program with Samsung recently, it was exactly a campaign that I said truly multi-platform include tv, digital, social, so use launchpad for off platform distribution and it really highlighted how Samsung technologies are being used to make the world a better place. Everything from the way they t trawl the ocean to dig up fishing nets and some of those fishing net parts are used in their mobile phones to a great story around how their TVs add access for the heart of hearing where we had a gentleman that was on stage with Beyonce who was doing sign language while she was performing, who went viral because he's an incredible character that really can literally make you hear the song using his hands.(09:54):It's amazing with hisIlyse Liffreing (09:55):MovementsRob Bradley (09:55):And he uses a Samsung TV at home, he feels it gives him what he needs considering that his hard of hearing challenges. So all those stories, it does involve a product, but really it's about a person, a human led story. We know that human led stories cut through a cluttered internet more particularly if they have some sort of emotional response that they offer, I can make you sad, happy, and ultimately the goal was to shift opinions about that brand. So looking at the data that we have, but 81% agreed that seeing the branded content that Samsung made made them think they were a more socially responsible company. 86% agreed that the branded content salt told them something about Samsung they didn't know before. And 84% agreed that branded content showed the value of Samsung as being more attention grabbing. So there's those hearts and minds movements that these campaigns at the brand's level kind of goals that they have. And that's really what we did with this campaign.Damian Fowler (10:53):That was great. Yeah, that's an interesting convergence of values and emotion and storytelling, but if we could sort of maybe look at some of the takeaways from the Launch Bank campaign and then get bigger from there. How did you measure success? I know you just mentioned some metrics right there for Samsung specifically, but did any platform or audience outperform your expectations?Rob Bradley (11:19):Yeah, I think we try to be platform agnostic somewhat when it comes to what the campaign goals are. So take within social, if the campaign of course is reaching consumers, we're more likely to use meta talk environments, YouTube, however of course if the campaign is more skew towards as a business audience, LinkedIn is more increasingly used. So it's not necessarily that one platform surprises because we'd set up the campaign at the start to meet those specific goals of that campaign. And within Samsung of course this was a consumer campaign, so those consumer platforms to reach and actually for that, TikTok did provide, and I think it was one of the first times that they'd ever worked with TikTok with a media owner and they trusted us because of the relationship that we have to deliver that campaign on TikTok. So that did have for one of the first times we've used it, a really important play within our overall multi-platform strategy.Damian Fowler (12:15):You mentioned insight-led sales, that means you have a good view of audience segments. Could you talk a little bit more about that and how you think about audience and how you break it down? And then the second part of that I guess is was there any unexpected reaction or behavior response from campaigns from these different areas of viewership?Rob Bradley (12:39):Yeah, I think we've had to get really sophisticated with understanding audiences and I'm linking who our audiences with our content. It touches on something I was talking about previously when it comes to the changes around news and news avoidance and brand safety and brand suitability. But that doesn't mean that all politics content should be blocked, for example. So I suppose there's the traditional side that we have of understanding our audiences of, okay, this is someone that's interested in reading a lot of business articles around finance. And then we can layer in personal identifying data where we have it and define and target that audience. But now we also add a layer in, we built a tool called sam, which is a sentiment analysis moderator, which also now kicks out a positive and negative sentiment score on our articles. So we know that if an article is about a scientific breakthrough, for example, that's a cure for a disease that may have innovation, technology may be very positive, but actually the word disease might have been blocked if you're using a more blunt keyword list. So with our clients, they trust us to use SAM to use more positive and negative targets. So we layer the kind of contextual element as well as the data element, and that runs on pretty much every single one of our direct campaigns.Ilyse Liffreing (13:56):Very cool. It sounds like a use of AI right there, if I'm not mistaken.Rob Bradley (14:00):It's an interesting one because we've had it for about five years and it is AI is machine learning and the reason we built it is because it ultimately unlocks more impressions than perhaps some of the off the shelf tools do.Ilyse Liffreing (14:11):Very true. Because also you're not just selling content to, you're selling a sustainable digital business. Would you say is your North Star when balancing that audience trust with monetization being CNN is such as a storied publication and company with multiple digital touch points?Rob Bradley (14:38):Yeah, good question. I mean, first of all, CNN's a global brand that's built on trust. We have some of the world's greatest journalists here and in a world that's growing in myth and disinformation is vital for society that they can rely on a trusted voice and reputable news organizations like CN. So I suppose our North Star is to of course lead with that trust but then make sure that we're essential for customers every day. So there's this sort of trust, but then there's also a premium environment and experience and that kind of goes hand in hand with advertisers going back to that storytelling piece or even putting an ad in an environment that has news. Brands want to be in a trusted place, so we really need to make sure that we're premium and that we're trusted first and foremost. But then also we need to embrace new ways of driving revenue.(15:29):We can't just rely on advertising, which is why we're embracing this direct-to-consumer business model to succeed over long-term. Linear in TV is still really, really important as of course is web, but exploring new digital monetization models that complement all those revenue streams are really important. So look fast is one of them, and CTV audio is one of them. We have CNN underscored in the us, which is kind of product recommendations and review sites, so e-commerce and of course as mentioned, the subs business, this direct to consumer business we're building. So we have to kind disrupt ourselves and embrace that to build a sustainable future.Damian Fowler (16:10):Rob, your role is you work for CNN International. So you look at the big picture obviously, and this is about a big picture question here, it's global, but it's also personal. So how do you think about that interaction, building digital products and content that both may be relevant at scale but also have to have local impact?Rob Bradley (16:31):I'll give you a kind of recent example. We announced plans to launch some CNM weather as our first standalone digital lifestyle product very recently, the upfront over in the us. So it is about expanding our content beyond news. As I mentioned, we already have travel, business style and tech and all of these different areas, but essentially builds on what we're good at, which is best in class live coverage of what's happening. Immense resources dedicated on the ground locally in this instance can of course be weather reporting and visual storytelling around weather. It's a way for CNN to bring these major weather events. So it may happen locally, so relevant information locally, but also huge interest globally. Think about the LA fires as a mass audience around the world, but also allows just simultaneously up to date weather forecast to help consumers get up to speed of what's going on there each day. And that's just a good example of something we've launched recently that has that both local, national and global relevance.Damian Fowler (17:29):I think it's always been a staple of good local news. Talking about right here in the US right now, there's some challenges to public broadcasting and one of the things that they have are these local stations that inform people about local weather events and that's crucial, especially in the tornado belt for instance. So I think weather obviously is key. And it's interesting to hear you say that obviously this is a fast moving space, the digital commercial space. As you look ahead, what are the biggest opportunities you see for CNN to lead here in this space? I guess AI is one of those things, immersive content. What else are you thinking about?Rob Bradley (18:10):Well, the CNN synonymous with video led journalism. Ultimately we're a video company that started on cable and is now in all these platforms that are ever expanding. But really we obviously want to continue and focus on that legacy if you like. So expanding our current subscription offering in the fall, as you guys say over there, autumn, as we say across the pond in the uk, essentially the launch of a new streaming product that's due ultimately in the US then but will soon be rolled out internationally as well. Providing a individual one stop place where audiences can access our journalism, our original programming, they can choose from live channels, catch up on features, a video on demand, and it'll be on all platforms from mobile apps, CTV and the.com websites. And it's going to be part of a new subscription, which is called CNN's All Access subscription.(19:01):So an example of embracing streaming video led alongside the other channels. And of course embracing the fact that our audience exists on mobile vertical video has been a huge investment for us. It's what consumers want, we understand their behavioral patterns. So we've basically grown our vertical video capabilities across our platforms and will be a key pillar as we continue. I also think it's about fostering direct relationships with audience, which is something that social does really well. Actually. We've already established some of these areas. Take Anderson Cooper's All there is podcast, which is fantastic, it's around grief, but literally has led to thousands of voice notes and interactions. Ranson himself so much that he built. And we built an online grief community, which essentially is where you can hear voices and other stories of people respond to comments and stories of their own grief and there's a really engaged community around that. And then of course podcasts and audio exists in audio, but more and more they're being recorded. And actually if you look at all areas podcast as well as the assignment of Cornish and Chasing Life of Doug, Sanjay Gupta, they're all video now as well and available there. So I think you're going to see news brands like seeing and leaning into this kind of personality led kind of opportunities as well.Ilyse Liffreing (20:18):Yeah, that's really exciting. The streaming space has exploded, obviously. And I'm curious how CNN All Access is going to differentiate itself enough or stand on its own in order to get those subscribers.Rob Bradley (20:38):Yeah, it's not necessarily a part I manage directly to be honest, to be honest with you, but I say CNN, it goes into another something we spoke about previously, which is around the history of the brand, the legacy of the brand, the power of a brand, right? No one can deny that CNN is a brand that doesn't touch all corners of the world and it's still highly, highly relevant. And it's funny, when you look at sometimes when you use the word a legacy brand or traditional media, it's almost used in some sort of negative connotation. Stay with me. You asked me a question, I'm going in a different direction. But sometimes it's used in this kind of negative connotation. But if you look at other areas like Luxury UMES or Rolex Legacy has a value. Auto Rolls Royce technology, I would say even like IBM or Apple, even their legacy is important because that brand stands for something as it does for CNN.(21:42):So those brands also innovate and make sure they're relevant for today. And I'd say streaming is just an example as well as podcasts as well as what we're doing. Launching the weather app is an example of CNN disrupting itself, making sure it's relevant today, but as well, not giving up on that legacy of who we are because that brand stands for something. So how are we going to stand out is having some of the best journalists in the world having one of the biggest brands in the world and making sure that what we do is authentic, fact-driven and trust base.Damian Fowler (22:15):That's great. So we've got a few quick questions here to hit you with to close this out. So alright. First off, what brand or publisher is doing something unexpected that you admire?Rob Bradley (22:30):Arnold Schwarzenegger's Pump Club. What love that You should have seen my comms team face when I said I was going to say that he's a yes. Firstly, I know this is an audio recording or a video recording, I'm not, if you can see me, I'm not someone that is a bodybuilder, but I do really, oh, I dunno. I do really like Arnold Sch and actually his pump club. I use it for the emailers, but there is a podcast as well. He is got an emailer, he's utilizing an ever-growing medium, let's say, from sending out email news. He uses his personal brand to form a relationship with an audience, his heritage in fitness, the rise of emails, as I said. And he shares really valuable information to a defined audience. It's really fact driven, it's really science driven today, which proves we do read it. He was reading, basically sharing a study on potassium and the benefits of increasing your potassium intake and how it can have on the heart. So he's got lots of links to real studies. The commercial model does mean he's trying to sell you a few things along the way as well. But I find it interesting and I think it's a great use of someone using all these tools that are available today to connect with an audience.Ilyse Liffreing (23:52):Yeah, that's a fun one. I like that.Rob Bradley (23:54):I love that there's oneDamian Fowler (23:54):Guy who knows how to connect to an audience. It's Arnie.Rob Bradley (23:57):Yeah. And do you know what? I saw him in New York last time I was there and he was sitting two meters away from me for at least two hours. And I didn't have the guts to say hello, but I was happy just being in Arnie's presence.Ilyse Liffreing (24:10):Yeah, amazing. If you could fast forward five years, what would you want CNN's digital presence to feel like to a 25-year-old?Rob Bradley (24:23):I mean, look super relevant, both from a personal point of view to also giving that individual information they need to know or should know about what's happening in the world. I think you don't want it too personal so that people are in their record chambers that say it should be video led. And of course it should be accessible on the platforms that that person wants. It should be ubiquitous, but it also should be predominantly on owned and operated platforms. It's important that we continue to invest in the core. And I know we spoke about social work, important to invest in the course, it should be owned and operated platforms that CNN has predominantly.Damian Fowler (24:59):And finally, late night breaking news alerts or morning deep dive newsletters. What's your personal preference or should we say news ritual?Rob Bradley (25:10):It sounds like a question as a news kind of person I should think about all the time, but I've realized, I go so deep in the mornings. I'm like within 15 minutes I've checked obviously CNN, but I've probably checked BBC, the Guardian New York Times. I check Fox News to see how they're approaching a story and then I'll go into podcasts on the way to work and then I'll probably check things like The Economist and things like that to go deeper as I've got more time. So I kind of utilize everything and I go pretty deep, but it probably tails off towards the end of the day. I think I've had enough by the evening, and that's more when I want to chill out of a glass of wine and watch a movie. I have some nice food.Damian Fowler (25:52):So, what was your what take, what was your big impression from that conversation with Rob?Ilyse Liffreing (25:59):Yeah, my big impression was really how, and this isn't surprising from CNN, but how they lead with storytelling when it comes to their managed brand campaigns. I love the example that he gave was Samsung who found when they managed their campaign across multiple digital touchpoints, they found that the audience 86% agreed that branded content told them something new about Samsung that they didn't know before. And that's really powerful when you're a brand like Samsung.Damian Fowler (26:34):Yeah, I thought that was very telling and I think even more the idea that CNN is really looking at and audience reaction, not just in terms of its own content, but in terms of the branded content. I thought that was also very interesting when we asked him about campaigns that have kind of caught them by surprise. And that idea that CNN International had launched a campaign that was targeted specifically a young affluent demographic in the city of London. But actually when they looked at the backend and looked at the measurement, it was hitting beyond London, outside of London to empty nesters whose kids had already left home, which was a surprising insight, but also allowed him to pivot the campaign to target that group. So I think the idea of audience strategy, being nimble with audience strategy and the fact that the digital frame allows a brand like CN International to be much more nimble right now. I guess that's an interesting takeaway for me.Ilyse Liffreing (27:39):Also, it helps that you have the breadth of data that a company like Warner Brothers Discovery does have across its multiple properties.Damian Fowler (27:51):And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (27:54):This series is produced by Molten Hart. The Current Podcast theme is by Love and caliber. The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Damian Fowler (28:03):And remember,Rob Bradley (28:03):If you look at other areas like Luxury UMES or Rolex Legacy has a value Auto Rolls-Royce technology. I would say even like IBM or Apple, even their legacy is important because that brand stands for something as it does for CNN.Damian Fowler (28:21):I'm DamianIlyse Liffreing (28:21):And I'm Ilyse, and we'll see you next time.

Chuck E. Cheese's Melissa McLeanas joins hosts Damian Fowler and Ilyse Liffreing on The Current Podcast to discuss how Chuck E. Cheese is leveraging its iconic IP for the streaming era, what advertisers are excited about and more. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian FowlerIlyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing,Damian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're thrilled to be joined by Melissa McLeanas, Vice President of Global Media Licensing and Entertainment at Chuck E. Cheese.Damian Fowler (00:18):For people who grew up in the us, Chuck E. Cheese means childhood birthday parties. It's long been a go-to destination for pizza games and the giant mouse that knows every kid's name.Ilyse Liffreing (00:29):In short, it's a pop culture icon with over 500 worldwide venues. But under Melissa's leadership, the brand is leveling up by launching the CEC Media Network in partnership with programmatic platform future. Today,Damian Fowler (00:42):It's a big move that signals a shift from just a physical play space to a full on entertainment platform, think digital storytelling in store screens, branded content and advertising that actually fits into the family experience.Ilyse Liffreing (00:57):We're going to jump in and talk about why in venue media might just be the next big driver of customer loyalty and growth.Damian Fowler (01:07):Chuck E. Cheese is such a nostalgic brand, especially in the United States, but here you are launching a full media network, which is a kind of big new chapter for you. Can you walk us through the vision and the strategy behind the CEC Media network and what is bringing it to life?Melissa McLeanas (01:26):Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me. It is an incredibly exciting time at CEC Entertainment. Then Chuck Cheese, I would say it's a bold new chapter for the company and the Media network is really just a piece of that. The brand has been going through an incredible transformation over the last few years, and really at the heart of that is the vision to establish this brand as a global leader in entertainment. Now, I say that, but it's really reestablished the brand in entertainment. Chuck E. Cheese was born in entertainment. I don't know if you know, but the E in Chuck E. Cheese stands for entertainment. And really when you think back to where we started, we were a leader and really established the category of EAT entertainment. And as that space has evolved and family entertainment centers have really taken that center stage, we've continued to be a leader and an innovator in that space.(02:14):But a few years ago, I would say we probably hit a wall and it was a little bit tired. The bones were good as they would say, but it was really time for a reset and bringing a new leadership team to the forefront with a new background and experience in entertainment. We established several different strategic objectives, one of them being the division that I lead, and that's media licensing and entertainment. So really very simply put, the mission is to really drive incremental value and revenue for the company in a new way. So all US locations, we've invested over 350 million back into the business, a capital investment, and I'm happy to say that right now at this point we've completed the US all US locations, so just under 500, no small feat, and we're about to finish our own Canada locations as well. And what this looks like is cosmetically update to the interior and the exterior, a revamp of menu, all new games, and that entertainment package now features a large video wall. And then of course our character program.Damian Fowler (03:16):That's a lot right there. It's almost like you've had a complete perception shift in terms of what you're doing. It sounds like you are a channel in and of your own right and media channel. You mentioned out of home, but there's also CTV on all those points. This is a kind of multistream content strategy. And could you just talk a little bit more about how that will ultimately reach all of these consumers and how it'll deepen engagement, I guess, for families who go to all these different venues in the US and around the world?Melissa McLeanas (03:50):So yeah, that's a great point. So I guess let me step back and actually talk about what that content looks like. Within our fund centers, we have entertainment programming, let's call it a 90 minute loop, and it consists primarily of entertainment, content, family friendly entertainment content. Of all these initiatives, obviously the first and foremost most important thing for us is to make sure that we're delivering an amazing experience for our guests. And so that content must do that. It has to be relevant for our families, it has to be engaging, and it really has to convey everything that our brand stands for. So that's a mix of our own original content. So I talked about that, the library. And so we continue to create new content and then we pull from our library of content. So we really look for things that are a little young, but it has to be appealing to an older guest.(04:37):At the same time, there can be aspirational content, so maybe some of our 10 year olds and 12 year olds are there with younger siblings, and then you got your parents. So there's a lot of opportunity there. The other thing that digital screens in this update to programming does is it allows us to do regular seasonal updates. And I think that's also really important, especially as we're growing programs like our membership program, our past program, we've got some repeat visitation, we're consistently updating and keeping that fresh throughout the year. Now as part of that, there's a lot of partner opportunities. And so for our entertainment partners, like I said, you can get the latest clips from your newest release for some of the newer content creators. We've got an active captive audience sitting right there paying attention to those screens, and we've created an environment where they're tuning into those screens. And so bringing our characters, since we do all of that content ourselves and working with other content creators to create some co-branded content, there's a lot of different ways for partners to really be a part of that entertainment experience.Ilyse Liffreing (05:38):Now I know it's early days too, but perhaps you can talk about some of those partnerships that you have going on with needy buyers and national advertisers and then how important the media network is to Chuck E. Cheese's broader business evolution.Melissa McLeanas (05:54):Absolutely. I'll actually take that moment to do a quick and talk more specifically on the advertising opportunity. I think a lot of what we're doing with the content and the characters is incredibly exciting, but it's also a really exciting time in the digital out of home and out of home space. So if you look at other venue operators and retailers, they're debuting these owned media networks. And so we've really took a page out of their book and we said, Hey, we've got this updated experience, we have this traffic. How do we really bring this to partners in a big way? And so on the, I would say the tech solutions side, we've had some really strong relationships with Panasonic so that we've got media players in advertising solutions that are going to support the various types of advertisers locally, regionally, nationally. And then we most recently have a relationship with Vista Media, so we were able to integrate their supply side platform directly into that CMS.(06:44):So that gives us access to a wide array of advertisers, and they're coming straight through programmatic, so turnkey solution for those who are buying programmatic space. So we're seeing a lot of advertisers come through there. And then we've got some more strategic relationships in the entertainment space. Kids BOP is one of those. They've been a partner for many, many years. And in addition to some of the entertainment content, they've really leveraged these screens to advertise tours to localize and talk specifically to upcoming tours at a specific venue ahead of that. We've worked with the Harlem Globetrotters to do the same, and then we have a various CPG toy, again, family appropriate, parent appropriate that are really taking advantage of those screens. And then of course we're talking out of home, but I don't want to forget too that we also announced a partnership with Future Today.(07:33):And so in addition to having this opportunity around content in our venues, we also have this content online. So we've had a lot of this on YouTube and YouTube kids. We actually started putting our content there in 2012 and have been doing so in a more meaningful way in the past few years. And with this new relationship with Future Today, a leader in the CTV space, not only are we getting content on their Happy Kids channel and their network alongside the co melons and the Paw trolls, but in the future we're working towards launching our own streaming network. So Chuck E. Cheese branded Fast Channel, so ad supported, but again, leaning into the content and the IP and engaging those guests and those fans and then offering that opportunity to brand safe and family friendly advertisers.Ilyse Liffreing (08:17):I know Chuck E. Cheese has traditionally been mostly about the physical experience before all of this. I remember going there as a kid, my dad brought us there all the time growing up, and obviously that part of the business is not dying down at all. I'm curious how many screens you have at each of the 500 plus venues that will be part of this network.Melissa McLeanas (08:41):So every location has a video wall, and that's going to be the focal point of when you walk into Chuck E. Cheese and it's incredibly important. You really can see that almost anywhere in most locations. Every one of our locations is unique, they're like children. They vary in size and layout, but really that video wall is huge. And then screens and the number of screens is going to depend on that layout and how big the location is. So it can be anywhere from six to 15 to 18 in some of our larger locations. So it's done strategically to make sure that there's visibility no matter where you are. And then audio isn't tied to those screens, so audio is just piped uniformly throughout the entire locations.Ilyse Liffreing (09:21):Besides those giant screens, are there any other ways you guys are blending that physical presence within the new digital touchpoints that you're bringing?Melissa McLeanas (09:30):So like I said, the character program is, I mean the epitome of the live physical experience. And so we really try to find a balance between how we take the digital parts of our brand and our entertainment and balance that with the interactive and the physical. So when the character, when Chucky comes out, whether it be for a birthday or for a dance, there's also supporting content on the screen that really help families follow along, be able to follow and interact with their parents and their friends and all of that. So we want to make sure it's on an interactive dance floor. So there's a lot of different ways to bring that to life. We also just recently launched a STEAM program, and so that is rooted in the media that you see on those screens, but then as part of that curriculum, those kids go off into the game rooms and they're playing with the games and they're doing all the different tasks that they've learned.(10:21):We did that in partnership with stem.org and then just digitally throughout the locations, our menu boards are all digital now. We've done some tremendous and deep upgrades in terms of innovation and technology, so no more tickets, which some people get sad about because that visual of having that bucket of tickets feels so iconic. But etickets are far more efficient for families that are trying to get through the price counter and out the door. So we've got Etic, we've got Play Pass, no more tokens, the menu boards, the games. We're really leaning into digital. It makes us more efficient when we need to make changes. We think about testing menu items in certain local and regional rollouts that's all supported digitally. It's far easier to make those updates on the backside than it is to roll out new point of sale and printed materials. And so we're looking for those digital opportunities throughoutIlyse Liffreing (11:11):Life. Things are certainly changing.Damian Fowler (11:12):They really are. Let's talk a little bit about some of the takeaways from all of these innovations. Now, let's say you're a family, you've been exposed to the video wall and the games room and you go home. How is this exposure being measured across the network, if you like?Melissa McLeanas (11:28):Yes, feedback is everything. We actually have a really active fan base and we do have guests who are reaching out to give us feedback. We have an in-house insights team and we have regular surveys, and then they're asking questions across every element of Chuck E. Cheese because we want to make sure that we're understanding as we update and introduce new exactly what's working, what's not and what can be better and happy to, the screens in the entertainment continues to have a really positive score. A very high guest are seeing it, they're tuning in and they love the entertainment. And so we'll continue to watch that. And when it comes to the advertising campaigns, from a measurement perspective, we're working with companies like Place their AI and an IMP purview to measure the impressions through our door as well as impressions against our screens, both being well-recognized auditors, if you will, in that space.(12:20):We don't sell tickets, so that's important to make sure that when we do these campaigns we can accurately say this is how many folks we're actually exposed to those screens. And then as we continue to work with our partners, and then I think this is something you'll see, especially in the digital out of home space, it's constantly evolving. And so for us it's really important to work with partners on their campaigns and understand those KPIs because we are a unique platform and the guests are engaging with these screens maybe differently than they might and screens out in a different venue. And so we want to make sure that the content that we're delivering, one, again, great guest experience and it's appropriate for our families, but two, it's achieving what our partners are looking to do with these campaigns.Ilyse Liffreing (13:04):So you've spoken about how Chuck E. Cheese as a brand spans generations. How do you ensure that the content and messaging then stay relevant to today's kids while still honoring the brand's legacy from the past?Melissa McLeanas (13:18):It's an amazing gift to have a brand and a character that has touched almost five decades, and that comes with great responsibility first and foremost, at the heart of what we are still, where a kid can be a kid. So as we continue to innovate and evolve for these families, we never lose sight of that. We are a kid first space. So while our content could be developed with co-viewing in mind and there's some Easter eggs that maybe parents will understand, but it's just fun silly songs for kids, we want to make sure that kids still own their space. Chuck E. Cheese is a place for kids. Our parents obviously need to enjoy their space too. And so in addition to how that content comes to life within our fund centers, we take a lot of opportunity to find extensions outside our four walls that pay homage to the rich legacy that this brand has.(14:11):So licensing is an important part of the strategic objective of growing this brand and increasing its value and entertainment. And so we've really grown our license program over the past five years. We've got just over 35 licensees and we've been able to really segment our brand across these decades and offer a classic Chuckie for those who know the OG seventies, eighties, Chuckie with the bowler hat. And we've got our retro Chuckie who's skater and he's the nineties, two thousands, and we offer that up to teen and young adult audiences in various spaces that make sense. We've done a few other things like we've saved our animatronics and in a few different locations, we started that in Northridge, California, wildly successful, lots of feedback there. And so we were able to extend that to four additional stores. And so those animatronics are going to live in those locations.(15:02):They're still fully remodeled, they're still on the media network, they still have all the new, but for fans that want to pilgrimage to see the original band in that format, those are available and we continue to look for opportunities like that. We've announced Chuck Arcade, it's an arcade space that's really geared towards Martine and adult, and there's some really fun touch points. Again, paying ho much to the legacy. And so we want to make sure that, again, our brand is a brand and we're going to take care of those kids and those families, but there's a lot of opportunity to really extend that and talk to the other generations of fans.Ilyse Liffreing (15:36):I certainly appreciate that. I remember Skater, Chuckie, myself, ninetiesMelissa McLeanas (15:41):Chucky, everybody has their Chuckie.Ilyse Liffreing (15:42):Oh yeah. I know it's early days still, but how has the feedback been so far from the brands that you guys are starting to approach about the network? Is there excitement, interest?Melissa McLeanas (15:56):I think a takeaway that is for brands and partners and even a lot of our guests is because just as you said, everyone has their Chuck E. Cheese and this is a brand that has such incredible awareness and strong attachment to a very specific memory and time of when you had your Chuck E. Cheese experience. As we're going through this remodel and introducing the median network, it's a bit of a surprise when they actually go in and they're like, oh my goodness, this is not the Chuck E. Cheese that I used to know. And we hear it from guests and it's why we really lean into reopening events when we remodel a location and then really make a splash in the local community. And I'm hearing that a lot from partners. It's incredibly positive once they see how their brand is coming to life on these screens and we're hosting lunch and learns with agencies, you have to see it to get it because that memory is so strong in so many people and we're doing things so differently. And so it's been really positive and it's been exciting, but it definitely is. It's a space where you've really got to lean in and say, oh, wait a second. You're right. This is incredible.Damian Fowler (17:06):We seem to be in a sort of almost, you mentioned the ip, but we seem to be in a bit of a golden age as it were, of brand storytelling and more and more brands leaning into sort of that owned media channel to tell their stories. How do you see this whole media network fitting into that general trendMelissa McLeanas (17:23):From a brand storytelling perspective? It's funny. We always make this differentiation. Our characters are part of our experience. We never look at them to tell the experience. And so as we debut all of these new channels for our content and open up to a larger audience, we have the opportunity to really dive into these characters, their personalities and invest in telling their story and in a deeper way. And so we've got so much content, but there's so many new formats that we are excited about long form formats, animation, publishing, and so much of that can be supported and come to life on these channels. But when we think about a storytelling opportunity from a character perspective, there's a great path forward to really get these beloved characters out there and to continue to build their world, their ecosystem, and not just in content. How do we take them outside the four walls? How do we create more experiences? We've taken the band out on tour, how do we do that in a bigger way? And I think these channels and this content is the beginning of a much bigger journey for the characters.Damian Fowler (18:31):Yeah, I imagine. Is there a movie in the works?Melissa McLeanas (18:36):No comment. No. In all serious, that's where we're going. That's where we're thinking for these characters. And so while nothing has been announced, I think we've been fairly vocal in the fact that that is what we would like to do and how we are making decisions on content and bringing on partners.Ilyse Liffreing (18:55):It's amazing. Looking even further ahead, if the movie doesn't happen, if the movie does happenMelissa McLeanas (19:03):When the movie happens,Ilyse Liffreing (19:03):When it happens,Melissa McLeanas (19:04):Exactly when the movieIlyse Liffreing (19:06):Happens, I like it. It happens. What else do you see in terms of innovation, whether it's maybe gamified content, augmented reality, personalized experiences, is there anything else that you guys are hoping in the near future to evolve the Chuck E T's experience?Melissa McLeanas (19:26):Gaming is in our DNA. And so I mean we are the largest arcade operator in the world. We buy thousands and thousands of games. We've got 2 billion game plays a year. And so we're always looking and talking to different companies about how we can continue to innovate in that space. And so that's always on our radar. You've seen a change in even some of the games that have come through our doors, things like ar, you need to make sure that it's safe for our young kids, but we're always having those conversations and now that we've got more media driven experiences, there is opportunity to take that to the screens. And with the dance floor personalization, if you think about birthday and how important that is to our brand, personalization is something that we're always looking to do in a bigger way. So from tiering and offering different options to our parents who are booking parties, to giving something personal just to remind or say happy birthday to the kids and how we can do that with our characters and at scale is something that is starting to get more exciting as this technology evolves.Ilyse Liffreing (20:34):Amazing. Let's go into some of rapid fire questions now, some quick fun ones for you. So the first one here is actually about your background. You've held roles across licensing, entertainment and media. What would be one lesson from building these brand partnerships that served you especially well?Melissa McLeanas (20:55):Partnerships can be incredibly powerful and they can serve so many purposes. And I think right now in the industry, you're hearing the word collaboration a lot. And it's refreshing because I also think that if you look back a few decades, it was very rigid of this is the partnership, I need X, you get X, this is how we do it or we don't do it. And I think the openness and the receptiveness across all industries, entertainment, licensing, media of building something that is going to benefit both parties in a bigger way has really changed how a lot of these partnerships have come to life. And for us, and in this journey that we've been in, they've really been a huge benefit to us. And one telling our story, aligning with some of these best in class entertainment brands and putting Chuck E. Cheese in a conversation that frankly people weren't expecting. And as you said, I have been very fortunate to have worked with some amazing partners across my career and bring some of these different programs to life and building them around Chuck E. Cheese has been really fun.Damian Fowler (22:02):What other family or entertainment brand is doing something truly innovative in the media space that inspires you?Melissa McLeanas (22:10):So I'm a theme park nerd, admittedly because of my background, and this almost feels like a cop out, but it has been really exciting to watch Universal grow as a behemoth in this space and even their marketing and from a grassroots perspective of how they've been able to engage their fan base. It's just fun and it's exciting to watch someone in that space grow as they have. But all that said, what I think is even cooler in location-based entertainment is these snackable moments that are kind of emerging outside of these giant theme parks. I think in the beginning it was always like that can only happen if you're paying a high ticket price to go to a Universal or Disney. And now so many of the IP holders and the brands are bringing these really cool experiences to life outside of that, whether it be a mobile tour or a retail experience or maze that's themed for the season. And I think that's really elevating the space and it's giving a lot of us opportunity to activate in these ways that doesn't require a giant theme park build around it. And so I think that the location based entertainment and experiential space in general has been growing and being more creative over the past few years.Ilyse Liffreing (23:22):Do you have a favorite moment from launching the CEC Media network?Melissa McLeanas (23:27):I think something that I could really call out is the feedback from our operators. So when you work for a company that is really the life force is your field and your cast members and your operators on the ground. We've got some cast members and some managers that have been with us for over 30 years and they know this brand and they've been delivering this amazing experience and change is hard. So when this started testing in markets and we got not only good feedback, but outwardly positive feedback and managers were approaching me like, you know what you could do? I'm like, this is fantastic because not only are we updating the entertainment experience, we're delivering on all these new objectives, but we're bringing value to the team that's operating and they see this great opportunity to talk to their guests and to be more efficient. And so that was very satisfying and it made it all the better because they really are the ones that are doing the work on the ground and making sure that this brand is coming to the life in the best of ways.Damian Fowler (24:27):On that point, was there a personal moment that stands out that you've witnessed where the brand genuinely sort of moved you or surprised you in how it was being received?Melissa McLeanas (24:38):So yes, I mentioned this summer concert series, and I'll give you a little bit of context. So during the pandemic, we had to close a lot of locations and as we started to open them, we made the decision to keep Chucky outside the fun centers to our families. That message was that he was recording an album and we didn't realize that he was going to have to record a box set in the end, but when we did get to a place where we were getting comfortable to bring him back to our guests and it wasn't everywhere, we were trying to think of how best to do that. And again, this is still early for me and in my role at Chuck E. Cheese. And so we decided to, for the first time ever, create a fully choreographed scripted show, 30 minute show with our characters, took 'em out on the road, all free concerts, open air outside public parks so all guests could attend no matter where we were in the world in terms of what those restrictions looked like.(25:33):And it was just an amazing team building event. So it's all new music, upbeat, fun, I still have it on my playlist, but we have our birthday song as part of this concert and we do it under the guise of Does anyone have a birthday this year? Which is of course everyone. And if you're familiar with the Chuck E. Cheese birthday song, it's not just Happy Birthday, it's very specific to Chuck E. Cheese. And as it started, every single guest was up and singing along to the lyrics and dancing the food truck vendors, the parents, everybody knew this song. And from a moment that was needed, it was incredible. But from a brand perspective, that's really powerful and that's really something special. And so that really stood out in my mind of like, wow, this is something, we really got something. So that would definitely be it. And if you don't know the birthday song,Ilyse Liffreing (26:25):I do know we can practice it after do birthday song.Damian Fowler (26:28):We should play this podcast out with a birthday song soon.Ilyse Liffreing (26:30):Yes, we should.Damian Fowler (26:32):Well, first off, Melissa was so enthusiastic about this new brand, this new entertainment network that the company's launching. I almost couldn't keep up with the amount of innovation the brand is putting out.Ilyse Liffreing (26:45):So much, so much has happen isDamian Fowler (26:45):Incredible. But I feel like there were a couple of bits there where she almost gave us some news. She talked about Chuck E. Cheese streaming platform potentially on the horizon, and then we sort of joked about this, but Chuck E. Cheese movie. But in an era where IP is everything and we're thinking of Barbie, why not?Ilyse Liffreing (27:05):Yeah, no, there's so much value in it for other advertisers too, when they're building this media network across their 500 plus venues in the US and internationally, that's a lot of screens and advertisers want to be with kids and with their parents especially.Damian Fowler (27:24):Another thought that was interesting to me was the way she talked with the way Melissa talked about the digital out of home and Chuckie, she's venues being almost an extension of that channel that is on the up and up really, and especially when it comes to programmatic media. So that was also something that I found intriguing.Ilyse Liffreing (27:44):It's also nice to know that they're doing a good job of blending their physical footprint with the digital and keeping everything we like about Chuck E. Cheese still alive in some way. Even those who remember the brand from the seventies, eighties, nineties, check that mouse is still there.Damian Fowler (28:05):Yeah, well, I can't say I grew up with it, but I know you did. So it's reassuring that that nostalgia is still alive.Ilyse Liffreing (28:11):And maybe for my birthday next year, are you going to invite me? Yes, Damian, you're invited. Thanks. And that'sDamian Fowler (28:18):It for this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (28:21):This series is produced by Molton Hart. The current podcasts theme is by Love and caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Damian Fowler (28:29):And remember,Melissa McLeanas (28:30):Our characters are part of our experience. We never look at them to tell the experience. I'm Damian and I'm my, we'llIlyse Liffreing (28:38):See you.

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Firestone Walker Brewing Company's CMO says connected TV has made it easier to reach its sports-loving customers. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian (00:03):This week we're really excited to talk with Dustin Hinz, the Chief marketing officer of Firestone Walker Brewing the craft brewery based in California.Ilyse (00:12):Dustin has been the chief marketer at Firestone for almost six years. He's an award-winning marketer who knows how to build a culturally relevant brand.Damian (00:21):Also, he's a musician and he helped build Guitar Center into that powerhouse brand It is today. He worked there for 17 years and you can ask any guitarist about Guitar Center and its Importance. And then he was an Ernie Ball music man, which is famous for its guitar strings, which I love. I'm curious though, Ilyse, do you play the guitar?Ilyse (00:40):I wish, but Okay. Damian, we're here to talk beer and how to market it in a crowded marketplace. So let's begin. So Dustin, can you tell us a little bit about Firestone and the brand 805? It seems it really has a West Coast vibe just like me. I'm from the West coast so I can see that. I feel it.Dustin (01:04):Firestone Walker is the culmination of David Walker and Adam Firestone's love for beer. And they met back in the nineties when David fell in love with Adam's sister and there's great stories about that. And then they found they had this mutual love for beer and the central coast of California. David being an expat in British and Adam being a Californian, they founded this amazing brewery on the central coast and really focused on just a few craft beers. DBA was their first beer and then Union Jack and there was a lot of craft was sort of an early movement. And then back in 2012 they stumbled upon this idea of 8 0 5 and 8 0 5 is the area code for the big swath of the Central coast, a big piece of California all the way down to Ventura County where actually I grew up. We like to say that the goal of 8 0 5 is to be the most globally recognized, regionally available beer in the world.Ilyse (02:03):Very cool. But there are a lot of beers out there, even craft beers. What would you say is the point of differentiation? Is it the taste? Is it the West coast vibes? What would you say?Dustin (02:15):I think the biggest point of differentiation in beer is the brand position. Obviously great brand position and great marketing is not going to solve a lousy product, so you got to have amazing product and we're trying to focus on being odds of the evens and really investing in our own legend and trying to stand for something and be the alternative choice. And thankfully beer is so big and there's so much opportunity that you can carve out a pretty nice size of the pie for yourself if you want to focus on being the alternative premium choice.Damian (02:43):One of things that you just said about the importance of marketing and how marketing can drive the business seems key to this. Is there anything that you could point us to that you'd say, this was the moment where I created brand awareness above and beyond or something like that?Dustin (03:05):The first one with the traditional 8 0 5, the black can I was very lucky to inherit five and a half years ago a slogan called Properly Chill and Properly Chill sort of was the slogan for this idea that life on the central coast was a little different, right? And what we did last year and then going into this year, and I believe that this is going to come out right around this new campaign is going to drop, is this idea telling the story of our brand through the lens of our customer. We have this amazing roster of ambassadors, we call them Authentico and eight oh five Authentico and Professional surfers, motocross Riders, boxers, MMA, fighters, artists, tattoo artists, you name it, it spans the spectrum. There's over 50 of them and they kind of cover every single different customer group that we believe the brand represents and we tell the story of that brand through those consumers or through those athletes.(04:06):And then a couple other examples were what we did was Summer of Cervesa when we launched the extension of 8 0 5, the first extension after 10 years, which was a Mexican lagger themed version of 8 0 5 with a little bit of lime in it. And the idea at the time was when you were looking at the marketplace, Mexican laggers were really on the rise. Corona obviously as an incredible background. Modelo has now at this point become the number one brand in the US surpassing Bud Light and Consumers were definitely reaching for this idea of sort of an escapism beer. So when we launched the campaign with summer survey, so we realized that we had to do something to stand out and create some differentiation between 8 0 5 blonde and 8 0 5. And so the 8 0 5 cervesa campaign was the first time we ever showed the product in color. 8 0 5 has been black and white since its inception in 2012. And with 8 0 5 Cervesa was the first time we ever put the product in color in the advertising. And it was a game changer. I mean, we sales went from moderately successful to up 20% pretty consistently because we were able to create that differentiation in the idea that Cervesa was a light and refreshing product.Damian (05:24):Wow, I love that just by adding color. But it is interesting that you started out in black and white as a kind of campaign. Why black and white?Dustin (05:32):I think they realized they needed to do something different to stand out back then. And trust me, it is a conversation pretty regularly when we're working on new ideas of, there is a lot of consternation around the idea of how do we maintain the brand identity and not stray from it because we want to be timeless, not timely. So we're very, very focused on, hey, every decision we make is going to have an impact a decade from now, two decades from now. Because the greatest brands in beer are multi-generational.Ilyse (06:02):Totally. And I know we talked about this earlier because it can be really difficult to market alcohol products, especially on platforms like social media where there are age roadblocks. What are the channels that you decided to lean into for these campaigns and are there any that you're experimenting with now?Dustin (06:24):I'd say at-home is a good third of our total media investment and then a big shift to TV about two years ago. And with connected TV platforms continuing to become more robust, it's made it a hell of a lot easier for us to get more geo-targeted because I think that spray and prey doesn't work when you're a regional brand and you want to get really focused on zip codes and you want to try to drive measurement. And so connected TV has been huge for us and whether that's through our partnerships with the World Surf League or we're just doing a sports our brand, what we know though is that from all of our consumer data is that a huge percentage of our customers are sports fans. They watch a lot of football, they watch a lot of baseball. So what we do is we take our brand to those channels and through partnerships like ESPN, we've been able to really connect with consumers and drive some really nice measurable lift for the brand. You're watching a sports game and you're going to see beer brand X or insurance brand X with an athlete for that sport. And then you see our spot, which might have a bull rider in it or a surfer or a motocross rider, and it just stands outIlyse (07:33):With your brands embrace of sports and kind of that measurement piece of CTV, you must love that more live sports are coming into the connected TV space.Dustin (07:47):I think the beneficiaries of this sort of democratization of content and it's making things more competitive. So as you see the Disney Network, Hulu, ESPN, or you go to YouTube TV and some of the other platforms that are continuing to open up, it makes it really easy to be competitive in the space or to at least have a voice. I think our team's been really good at identifying those opportunities, proving the efficacy of those investments so that we can continue to do them.Damian (08:15):You hinted at something about the seasonality of marketing and I'm kind of interested in that as a marketer of beer and I guess in lots of ways, as you said, you're kind of marketing lifestyle, you have associations with surfers and athletes and the summer. I'm curious how often you think about the need to refresh campaigns and how do you keep them relevant to the culture cultural moment?Dustin (08:42):Yeah, great question. You definitely have to, in beer, especially with the retail partners, you need to be seasonal. I spent the first 20 years of my career on the music side as a retailer, so I know what retailers want. They're going to want, Hey, it's Memorial Day, I'm going to have a display in my store for a week and a half, two weeks. It better fit the theme of Memorial Day. Now how you do that, you can do that without just stars and stripes. There's other ways to do that, but the I idea of escapism and patriotism to a degree, but when you look at the retail calendar, there are a myriad, there's like 16 major temples that you have to win. So our team is definitely working to make sure that we're taking the overall thematic of our brand and pulling that down into those temples.(09:33):And that fits the larger brand story because obviously you don't want to have 16 different TV spots throughout the year. So we'll have several different campaigns throughout the year, but then those drop down into Cinco de Mayo or Day of the Dead or 4th of July. So you have to, depending on the channel that we're in, yeah, some stuff has to be far more granular to make sure that it's serving the need of that retailer or the desire of that retailer, and as well as making sure that we're still maintaining the brand identity that we want to have. While everybody else does Super Bowl and does football, we're doing the World Surf League pipeline, which is the Super Bowl of surf, so is the official beer of the WSL when everyone's doing Super Bowl, we're doing surfing.Damian (10:10):Now, Dustin listeners can't see this, but I know behind you you've got some fantastic vintage guitars there, which I wanted. I know that you are a musician and before you worked at 8 0 5, you worked as a marketer in the music industry, including for Ernie Ball, music Man and Guitar Center. And I'm kind of interested in the kind of synergies that you might have found there between marketing to musicians and the kind of now the position you're in now marketing beer.Dustin (10:42):It's really sort of a story of serendipity. I got my first guitar when I was 14 years old and it sort of changed my life. Music just bordered became this obsession and it's what I wanted to do, started a band and typical story, didn't go to college, was like college, I'm going to be in a band, mom, what are you talking about? So I begged her at the time she was working, she was the executive assistant to the CEO O of Guitar Center back in the nineties when they were still a small company. And I said, Hey, just give me a job in the mail room or something, and so just give me the summer. Let me prove to you that my band can be in great before I have to go to college. And so she got me a job in the mail room and said, three months, that's it. And three months turned into 18 years.(11:35):I worked my way up to vice president and that typical age old story. But what I found really early on when I got there was, and I remember there was a moment, I was there a couple of months working in the mail room, excited in the mail room is right next to the marketing department and there was a great VP of marketing. It was Mike. I still talk to him to this day, 20 something years later. He always says, his joke is, you're the best hire I ever made. But I remember looking at the marketing materials and saying to the guys like, Hey, we're not marketing to, I'm the customer. Why don't you talk to me? We should change the way that we talk to the customers because this doesn't make sense. I'm the customer, I don't want to read this. So I pitched him some ideas and he's like, yeah, that's a great idea. You want a job in marketing?(12:18):And I went from $4 and 50 cents an hour to $9 an hour. I thought it was rich. I'm 18 years old. And I started that journey. And I think what I realized really early on, and what was great about Guitar Center was that our mission was to mint new customers. We realized early on through a great visionary, CEO, we had Marty Albertson was that we had to make sure that we were creating musicians. There wasn't a lot of 'em. When you think about the population of the world, it think it's like 2% our musicians. So if you want to continue to sell guitars and you want to continue to sell instruments, you've got to inspire people to want to play music. So our mission became taking this great feeling and propelling that and perpetuating it to get more people excited about it. And we became a platform for artists and creating, over the course of my 20 years, I got to create TV shows and write documentaries and make slashes documentary.(13:09):I got to things that you would only dream of when you were a kid to make art with other artists that inspired the world. And I think the common thread through all of that was that great marketing, great brands stand for something clear and enduring. I'm very, very lucky that as a songwriter and a musician early on, that I found this extension of that creative process to sort of keep me inspired. I mean marketing in a lot of ways, your writers, your songwriters, your creatives, and you get to do that while also tackling, for me at least the necessary evil of lift analysis, analytics andDamian (13:46):Some of those things that come with the business. Our musicians have to be marketers these days anyway. Right.Ilyse (13:50):That's very true. And that 2%, we at least have two in our miss because Damian's a musician as well. But yeah, it's so interesting that you talk about that area of the population and in some ways it's almost harder to reach those very niche communities.Dustin (14:09):Yeah, there's that great quote. I don't know if it came from Nike, it was probably Nike, but what's that speak to the core loud enough that everyone else can hear? I mean, I think that's been a mission of music. I mean, remember the indie movement or the punk movement, it was like everybody didn't want to be mainstream, and it was just like, do this thing, own your audience. And then what happens is the cool thing, everybody wants to sit at the cool table. Everybody wants to be a part of the movement, but you can't market to the people that want to be in the movement. You have to market to the people who have started the movement, and then what happens is then you can maintain some credibility.Damian (14:40):I'm just curious to get your high level perspective on what do you think needs to change in the ad marketplace today, which as we all know, is very much digital programmatic.Dustin (14:52):I think product placement right now, especially on podcasts, is just incredibly oversaturated. And I understand that when you've got a major budget and you're moving money around and you're trying to do everything you can to drive eyeballs, but I have this conversation all the time with the agency. I'm not interested in the most amount of eyeballs. I want the right ones. And when I look at a podcast and I just see energy drinks on tables and then right behind it, I see a Starbucks cup and the cans aren't open, I just think there's too much of that going on. To me, there's not real connections. So I think one of the things for me that's just unfortunate is because of the amount of money and the amount of ad money that's available and it's all moving from different platforms, is that sort of approach has created, I think a really high level of high bar for entry into some of these categories.(15:40):The expectations of money that are tied to some of these opportunities are so overblown. So I think that to me, that's always been something that I've always struggled with that I always hope is going to work itself out and well. I think that you go through ebbs and flows, especially when times get tough, people will cut back on their marketing, they cut back on sponsorships, and that's when opportunities open up. And if you're smart and you manage your money effectively and you have dollars, when other brands are carving back, that's when you can start to find really interesting opportunities. But for me, yeah, influencer marketing, product seating, I've never been excited about it. One of the things that we say all the time at Firestone Walker is keep the main thing, the main thing. And by doing that, we put on ourselves from chasing too many squirrels in the backyard.Ilyse (16:30):I love that.Dustin (16:31):Yeah.Ilyse (16:32):Is there anything you are obsessed with figuring out right now?Dustin (16:35):I mean, we sell millions of cases of beer and our first party data. We've done an amazing job of our first party data, emails building customer attention, but there is this weird thing with social, and I'm just obsessed with trying to figure out what it is. And our agency's got great relationships with meta and these platforms, and nobody, one can seem to give me the answer of what is happening on the backend within the algorithms that is preventing some of the biggest brands in the world with tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of consumers. This ability to create real audiences on these platforms, because we live in a world now where all content is consumed through just a few channels. When you think about YouTube, whatever happens with TikTok, Instagram Meta, et cetera, there's a only handful of channels where a majority of all of the content consumption is taking place.(17:31):And if every single one of those has a toll booth between you and your customer, but then there's also a filter that is preventing you from really building your audience. I'm obsessed with trying to figure that out. If we do believe in this idea of the zeitgeist and that culture matters and that brands stand for something clear and enduring, the world is going to continue and down this digital path. And sure, point of sale and billboards and TV advertising are great ways to tell people about your brand, but it is the way to get your arms around them. It's going to be on these platforms and the ones that are coming. And I think that's what the industry as a whole is always the industry as a whole struggles with this. And I think it can be dangerous in the sense that you over obsess it and then you put too much money into like, well, I got to grow followers, or I got to grow my audience. Versus like, well, I just got to drive, drive affinity in purchase intent. And so that's, I think the balance of how do we focus on stuffing the funnel, creating a tremendous amount of energy for our brands. The right partnerships is omnipresent in the right cultural segments that we want to be in, but at the same time try to figure out how we can expand our tent and get more people into it.Damian (18:46):Wow. Ali, I love that conversation with Dustin. I mean, it's not every day you get to talk to somebody who's a musician and a marketer and who's able to tie both of those things together so well as he did. But what was the standout thing to you that he said?Ilyse (19:02):I think what really stuck out was kind of playing how Firestone and Dustin kind of play that fine line of keeping consistent, but also not being too rigid and trying new things with customers. I know with 9,000 plus breweries, it's kind of crazy that there's so much competition to stick out and beer brands have to stick out. But what he said was really interesting about staying consistent with an agency and measurement and really trying to find, making sure that what you're making art essentially actually makes sense.Damian (19:45):Yeah, I agree with you and I feel like one of the most powerful things he said to me was when he was at Guitar Center, when he was there for 17 years, his vision was to mint new musicians and identifying that only 2% of the world population, 2%, I think he said musicians. So you have to inspire more people to want to create music. And taking that sort of core philosophy and applying it to his current role at 8 0 5 seems to be something that's driving him as a mission driven marketer. I think as he said, great brands have to stand for something enduring. So in that regard, I think he's really smart, and to do this at this cultural moment where there's so much fragmentation, that is one way to help him clear through all the clutter and stay focused.Ilyse (20:30):Yeah, I think one of my favorite quotes too was like keep the main thing, the main thing, and that keeps us basically from chasing those squirrels.Damian (20:44):That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. I'm Ilyse, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

Dow Jones CMO Sherry Weiss reveals the marketing strategy behind growing subscription businesses for publications like The Wall Street Journal.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse LiffreingDamian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're delighted to talk with Sherry Weiss, the CMO of Dow Jones.Damian Fowler (00:14):And Sherry's responsible for growing Dow Jones' subscription business across the publisher's. Numerous business titles, which include the Wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, and Investors Business Daily,Ilyse Liffreing (00:26):But that's not all. Sherry also heads up the brand and enterprise go-to-market strategy for Dow Jones Research and Newswire services like TibaDamian Fowler (00:35):In an era where publishers are facing many challenges to their business models. From the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai, Sherry gets into how the publishers answering back by building a subscription strategy.Ilyse Liffreing (00:48):We start off by talking about the Wall Street Journal's latest campaign.Sherry Weiss (00:56):So it's your business. It's not only our new campaign, but our new brand platform, which we launched in June of last year. A little bit about the history of how we got into this new platform. So our previous platform was Trust Your Decisions and I joined the organization about two and a half years ago. One of the first things that the team and I did at that point in time is really dive deeply into understanding our current and then our future growth audience needs. And when we were going through that research, one of the things that came out was the idea around trust and how that's table stakes(01:33):And what our audience are saying that's a given and kind of don't tell us to trust you, we will determine that. And so we realized that there was this need to speak a little bit differently to our future audiences and also to crack the code on what Wall Street Journal is. So Wall Street Journal is a storied brand, it's well known, but oftentimes we were seeing with our growth audiences that people did not think the journal applied to them. And in all of our customer research, what we were beginning to piece together is the folks that read the journal and folks that we believe are our editorial content applies to. They have a lot of similarities underlying them. They're all ambitious, they want to be knowledgeable, they're quite intellectual, but they may be in different stages of their career. And so part of what we needed to do with this brand platform was help bridge the gap is to explain to our future audiences why the journalist for them.(02:31):And the other thing that's interesting about this campaign is that it's the first time in quite some time that we truly leaned into the journalism, our actual core product. And in that campaign we brought out specific articles into the actual campaign and balance those articles between things that you would expect the journal to write about and things that you would not expect us to write about. And a really good example is that we had an article around folks that were becoming lifelong renters and those were decisions that they were making. And so one of our headlines leaned into that. Another one was around make hotdog economics your business when you talk about food and inflation. And that was showing up in a hot dog truck. And the great thing there is it killed two burns with one stone because we were able to go loud with an awareness campaign, but it also enabled us a way to drive back to sampling. And in all of our campaigns we had QR codes, it actually drove back to the original article and that was quite successful.Damian Fowler (03:38):That's really fascinating. One of the things before we get into what you learned from this campaign, how did you identify where those potentially net new audiences readers were coming from? You say you have this core group of people who are interested in business, but then you have people who are kind of adjacent to it but also interested in business. I'm just curious, how did you think about that and how did you sort of build that into your strategy?Sherry Weiss (04:06):Sure. So everything we do is data-based and customer reader first. So as part of this re-looking at our platform, we did a deep audience study and within that audience study we went out obviously across the market around news readers who are willing to pay and really started having deep conversations, both qualitative as well as quantitative research into what people are looking for and also finding common threads around attitudes and life point of views. And what we found was we have a really core group of readers tried and true folks that you would expect over index more into investing and working on Wall Street and more of your traditional business folks, but business expands so much more than that. And what we were finding is that there were a deep growth area where there are people who are outside of what we would say are our traditional professions, marketing, consulting, government actually that have, they are interested in the type of content that we write, they just may not be aware that we're writing it. And again, as I mentioned, we're also looking at our audiences that it's not so much around your profession or where you live, but the attitudes in which you hold in common, right? So your desire to be well-informed, your ambition to get ahead in whatever way you want to get ahead, they all have that in common. And so that's really how we started crafting the growth audiences. And then obviously within that with the research we gleaned a lot of information on where they're engaging and that's where we would go out to find in marketing. Interesting.Ilyse Liffreing (05:51):Now you said the first phase of the campaign started in June and I remember going to the Wall Street Journal house in Canon, seeing that all over the place there, what other areas did the campaign come to life in that aspect besides maybe the articles?Sherry Weiss (06:09):Sure. It's interesting because again, all of everything really in the campaign, everything that we put forth had an article that was underlying it. But the cool thing about it is that you could do what you would call traditional marketing. So display on social out of home, we did a Penn Station takeover, but you could also, we were able to leverage this campaign to make it more experiential as well. So as you mentioned, we had the Wall Street Journal, cafe A can. If anybody listening was in there, you probably saw there were things like our salt and pepper shakers and on there had QR codes that had, I can't remember the article that we raised there, but it drove back to an article that had something to do with salt and pepper on the menu. Everything had a article that was associated to it. And so there was an article that we were featuring Make Sleep, divorce Your Business, and we were able to put that above a space that was a mattress store, make EV economics your business, and we would take out space in charging stations so you could take the content that we write about, which is so embedded in every day, build it into the context in which a potential reader is engaging and that actually cracks the code, right?(07:24):It's your business. It's so much more than stock trading or what's happening in banking these days.Ilyse Liffreing (07:31):Yeah, it's everywhere.Sherry Weiss (07:32):Yeah, exactly.Damian Fowler (07:33):And you're sort of changing perceptionSherry Weiss (07:35):OfDamian Fowler (07:35):The paper.Sherry Weiss (07:36):Yes, definitely.Damian Fowler (07:37):And now obviously the Wall Street Journal is one of several publications that you manage. I guess it's maybe the vanguard of the Dow Jones Business publications, but you have many other prestige publications like Barron's Investors Business Daily, which is probably more niche for people actually on the front lines of business. When you think about the whole portfolio, are there crossover audiences or are they distinct audiences?Sherry Weiss (08:04):I mean, the short answer is yes and yes. So the nice thing is, as you had mentioned, we have a four premier consumer publications, wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, IBD, all of them in one way, shape or form is journalism with a business lens. But each one provides a different take on an issue or a topic and serves a different purpose. And you mentioned IBD, right? IBD is really focused on helping people make decisions on trading in growth stocks. And it's not just about information but tools that investors can use. And so we believe that there are, again, taking an audience first approach, there are audiences that fit squarely into each one of those publications but may not overlap. But we also believe that there are audiences that would find value across all of our publications. And interestingly enough, we had done some testing into this over the last two years, really more so from a marketing offer.(09:10):What happens if you bring somebody on with an introductory subscription offer to a variety of our publications? And we found that number one, people were opting into it at really high take rates. We also found that once they were on this proposition, people were reading actively across our publications were very engaged and increased engagement over standalone and retain better. And so we've now made this into a true proposition WSJ Plus, and this is just the beginning, but basically we target very specific audiences who are investors who are hungry for knowledge from all different angles, and WSJ Plus is a platform that enables them to do that.Damian Fowler (09:56):What was the kind of goal there? In a way,Sherry Weiss (09:58):The main goal is to provide additional value and deep in relationships with our subscribers and frankly our future subscribers. But we know across our ecosystem that we have news and information. And then if you think about Dow Jones overall and news data information and analysis to help people, whether it be you as a person outside the office or in a professional capacity to make decisions. And so the idea around the plus offering is how do you open that up so that your readers are able to find additional ways to find value with youIlyse Liffreing (10:36):When you have so many publications and you are trying to grow a business, that first party data that you get from subscribers is very important. How is the Wall Street Journal and other publications under Dell Jones, how are you guys using that first party data to perhaps reach new subscribers and then I guess carry on that same messaging across publications?Sherry Weiss (11:08):Sure. Prior to joining Dow Jones about two and a half years ago, I come out of consumer financial services most of my time in the credit card industry. And for anybody who has worked in credit cards or financial services knows that everything that you do, all of your strategies are seeped in deep, deep data payment companies know a lot about you. And so one of the first things that I did when I came in was really to take a look at how we can start supercharging our strategy to not make it a holistic strategy actually or a monolithic strategy, but really start building out personalized ways of engaging with our prospects and our readers. First from a segment perspective, but eventually we want to get to a way of engaging via a of one what worked in media a few years ago is not going to be the secret sauce that drives growth for the future. And so leaning into unlocking our data and analytics is important. Over the last two years, we've built out an internal analytics team really focused on building out predictive models to help drive our strategies forward. And that obviously is all built off of our first party data. A really interesting one that is in beta right now when you talk about this is more around engaging and retaining our customer base is being able to predict customer behavior based on market fluctuations(12:34):And really being able to take not only our first party data but indices and market research sets and pull together into models to say, okay, what flags are there four weeks out from a market shift that could help us determine whether or not we need to think about our retention offers more aggressively or whether we should be leaning into paid media a little bit more to start acquiring customers on certain products that perhaps are more sensitive to market shifts.Ilyse Liffreing (13:06):That's so fascinating. So basically if the market is down, say like today if the market is down, you can predict that you'll have more readers that day.Sherry Weiss (13:20):Well, it could be one of a few things, right? In some respects, and it's interesting because how you apply that model across each one of our products, and as I mentioned it's not just publications but there's tools as well. How you tweak that model to help you make decisions is going to be different based on how someone uses each one of your products. So in some cases, if you have a product that's more geared towards trading and you're seeing swings, let's say the market is swinging upwards, you really want to lean in during that period of time to start acquiring customers because there's an uptick in interest. Or to your point, if you are seeing volatility in the market and they're coming to the journal or they're coming to market watch to understand that that also is a time to really start thinking about is your engagement strategy different? Are you willing to shift again from an acquisition perspective, pull forward media that you would've been spending later in the year? Things like that secret.Ilyse Liffreing (14:16):How are you guys able to predict that though four weeks in Advance?Sherry Weiss (14:19):That secret secret? That's the secret sauce. Okay. Secret sauce, that's the secret sauce you don't have to tell us,Damian Fowler (14:25):But it's fair to say that the marketing campaigns are much faster now and more(14:30):Iterative based on current eventsSherry Weiss (14:33):Very much. And I think that is the other area that we've focused on When I first came in, if you are in marketing in a news organization and you cannot respond at the speed of news, then you are not appropriately supporting your newsrooms. And when we first came in, we did an end-to-end assessment of how quickly we would be able to get creative into market based on breaking news. And it was days and we're now at a place where it's hours and in some case less than an hour. So being able to react that quickly, and it's not just about creative development, but making sure you have your audience targeting in place, you're able to turn things on. It obviously was a mix of people, process and tooling. So yes, we are able to react very quickly.Damian Fowler (15:20):That brings us to a question we might call a bigger picture question, but so in terms of the marketing channels that enable you to react to these conditions, where do you see value? Where do you look?Sherry Weiss (15:34):Well, let's put it this way. We're looking daily and constantly evaluating where we're putting investment in and where we're showing up. And it's also very product specific. So there's certain products that are quite niche that you're leaning into, really niche influencer strategy for instance. And then there's other that you want to go broad. So obviously traditional channels, paid search, paid social, that all still is very important for us. Organic traffic is still a quite substantial part of our conversion strategy. And so how you show up organically in the ecosystem, if you think about on social media and other outlets, really important. The brand campaign is actually quite important because what we're really trying to do is the referral ecosystem evolves and it perhaps is, well, it's not perhaps is being disrupted. What makes somebody wake up in the morning and want to type in Wall Street journal.com for instance. That's where the brand campaign is really important and why we're leaning into brand marketing more so than we ever have before.Ilyse Liffreing (16:39):Now at the same time, publishers are facing multiple challenges to their business models, what's new there, but the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai. What has been the most helpful way to stay true to the business during this time of constant change?Sherry Weiss (16:57):What just popped into my mind is the quote, my dad always to this day always says, but always told us when we were kids. And it's this idea around adversity breeds opportunity. And so you can think about adversity or changing landscape or changing business models and you can be fearful about it and you can try to push back or you can lean into it. And I think what we're doing is we're leaning into it. The journal as a business has historically leaned into it. So interesting fact. We were the first ones to put up a paywall many moons ago and that was a time of disruption and we're going into a time of disruption now. The first thing is while you're thinking through, alright, what new channels do we want to go into? What brings people to us directly? How do we start building relationships with people in new and different ways?(17:51):You also have to lean into and feel really clear about, but who are you and not change that? And so the focus on, we have a storied history about delivering quality journalism through the lens of business that is what we're leaning into. And then trying to find our growth audiences where they are is where we need to crack the code. And what worked before is not going to work in the future. So test and learn is huge. And I know that sounds like a buzzword, but as I mentioned, we, it's not only about predictive analytics that we've introduced, but being okay with rapid testing and figuring out what's working and what's not and then switching quickly to either scale what's working or to stop what's not and everything needs to be measured.Ilyse Liffreing (18:39):We've noted and written about recently how certain social media channels have been inconsistent with promoting news, changing their own strategy with that. Is this something that you have to constantly think about and stay ahead of?Sherry Weiss (18:57):We can't sit back and rely on refers that traditionally sent traffic our ways. It's not just social media. A lot of places that were traditional referrals channels are really, their business models are looking to keep people on platform and social media. It will continue and continues to play a really important role both not only from a paid perspective but from a organic and amplification perspective. That's where our current and future audiences are engaging. And I think what we need to think about is cracking the code in two ways from an owned and operated perspective. How do we get people to come to us directly, but then also in these off platform channels, how do we show up differently? We've also made a lot of inroads into organic content on TikTok and I think the next place that we have to think about is we're engaging with our future audiences in those areas. How do we then think about new and different monetization models in order to capitalize on that?Ilyse Liffreing (20:01):What are you obsessed with figuring out right now?Sherry Weiss (20:06):The one thing, and it's going to sound cliche but it is on everybody's mind, is how to start capitalizing on the advent of gen ai. And AI has been around for a long time. We are using a machine learning at Dow Jones most. I talked about predictive modeling earlier, but really the next step on this is how do we start applying generative ai? And when I talk about obsessed with trying to crack the code, it's twofold. How do we leverage this technology to build more value added consumer facing propositions, but also how do we leverage it internally? How do we leverage to start helping us drive our marketing at scale? For instance, how do we leverage it to really start enhancing our predictive models? And so it's something top of mind, it's something that I'm actively learning about. It's something I want my team to really deeply engage in and it's here to stay. So cracking the code on that is important.Damian Fowler (21:10):Is marketing a science or an art?Sherry Weiss (21:13):Both marketing is both an art and a science. And if you miss each side of it, you miss the secret sauce of it. You can lean too far in each direction. Obviously I would say that I'm more of a science first marketer. That's where I lean first. But if you miss the human element, you can go way far into data and you miss the human element, the way you connect with people, your marketing is not going to resonate, it's not going to land. And it's interesting because I'm not going to be able to state the exact fact, but there was something that I saw at a speaking event the other day where it was saying, when you think about your testing agenda, you can actually make more progress in your creative testing than in your pricing. And that was an interesting thing because that says something about the art of marketing. How do you connect with your audience? And so to that point, although I just said that I tend to be more of a science marketer, most of my decisions are how I figure out how to engage with audiences is everything is based on what the customer is saying first. It's an outside in versus what we are assuming we should be saying to our end users.Damian Fowler (22:27):What would you do if you had an unlimited marketing budget?Sherry Weiss (22:32):Oh my goodness. All right, let me get the list out. It's like Santa came a hundred, a hundred cafes(22:39):A hundred. Well, no, interestingly enough, I guess that's where I'm going to lean into if I had an unlimited marketing budget. When you're trying to determine where to place your next dollar and you're talking about the mix of art and science, for better or for worse, you lean towards the science. And so your next dollar is always going to be you have to make the trade off of, am I going to place my next dollar in something that I know will return? Why? Or am I going to place my next dollar into something that's really unique, different, may not be measurable, but is breakthrough? And if I had an unlimited marketing budget, there would be Wall Street Journal cafes all over the place. Really being able to lean into really interesting different types of experiential events at scale could be really fun.Ilyse Liffreing (23:30):That was a great conversation with Sherry. Damien, what were some of your takeaways?Damian Fowler (23:34):Yeah, I love hearing from people who are marketing publications probably because I come from a background of journalism and it's always fascinating to hear, talk about how to build and find new readers, which is basically the big question for publications everywhere. When you've got a brand like the Wall Street Journal though, which is really a premium newspaper, probably the Vanguard newspaper in the United States along with the New York Times. It's interesting to hear Sherry talk about how she's trying to find those readers that might not be obvious beyond the business community and how she's using marketing to broaden that reach along with the tagline, which is it's your business. Business is everybody's business. And I think we increasingly realize that and it's smart of her to build a marketing campaign around that concept.Ilyse Liffreing (24:24):No, I know what you mean Damien. And what really interested me too is, and I wish she would've revealed her secret sauce here, but it's fascinating how they're able to predict their audience four weeks ahead of time and to be so on the cutting edge with news. And as she spoke about they had to reinvent the wheel a little bit and how they can cover certain news events with their team, being able to predict those insights of how their audience is going to react so quickly ahead of time is so powerful.Damian Fowler (25:01):I think that was really a great point. And the fact that marketing moves so much faster now based on what's happening. And especially for a publication like The Journal, which is built around market fluctuations and obviously has a huge political and business readership. So it's really important for them to be able to react to what's happening. And that was a big takeaway for me, talking about the speed at which now marketing moves, which is not built on six month or annual campaigns, but much more rapidly iterating as it were, which is that word we all use in the marketplace.Ilyse Liffreing (25:38):No, that's very true and that's what I'm going to think about the next time I go to Wall Street Journal Cafe as well.Damian Fowler (25:47):That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

Stellantis' CMO Raj Register talks about building consistent storytelling across channels, what she's learning from AI and why she's obsessed with connecting marketing action to tangible business outcomes. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're delighted to talk with Raj Register, the Senior Vice President and CMO for North America at Stellantis, one of the biggest names in the global auto industry.Damian Fowler (00:19):That's right. Stellantis is the powerhouse behind iconic brands like Jeep, Dodge, Ram, Chrysler, and so many more.Ilyse Liffreing (00:26):And as our North American fans may be well aware, stellantis just ran off one but two high profile spots at the Super Bowl in February, both featuring major celebs,Damian Fowler (00:37):Glenn Powell as Goldlock in the Ram Super Bowl commercial, and Harrison Ford who rarely appears in ads starring in the Jeep commercial.Ilyse Liffreing (00:45):Let's get started.Damian Fowler (00:51):The first thing I want to ask you, Raj, is how did it all come together?Raj Register (00:55):Yeah, that's a great question and not the most straightforward way that many would think. So at Stellantis we have something called a jump ball. And Jump ball basically means that we curate several agencies and we allow them to pitch and based on the pitch how we brief them and whoever comes up with the best idea pretty much wins the business. So for this past Super Bowl, we spoke to around 35 plus agencies and we were able to round them out to the best two, one for Ram, one for Jeep. So we go through several rounds of creative, we determine what's the best story, how does it really relate to our business? And from my perspective it was what's the best creative outside of that? Then what's the best thing that will help give us more runway past the Super Bowl? So outside of the creative is the business aspect and how are we going to perform and make sure that it delivers upon all of our goals.Damian Fowler (01:56):Now everyone knows, I guess at this point that the Super Bowl ad spot is one of the most coveted in the world and one of the most pricey I suppose. But wanted to ask you why was it important for Stellantis? I mean, you're the only order maker as I understand it, to have a spot during the game this year. Why was it important for you?Raj Register (02:14):There's a lot of dialogue around why were we the only one. I saw it as an incredible opportunity for us to be auto exclusive. When do you get to do that? During Super Bowl? It was really important for us to show up, not only to show that we're here, not only are we American born and we are proud of our brands, but when we think of everything we have to offer to our consumers, we wanted to leverage this as an opportunity to tell that story and give them an indication of who we are. And it was almost like a reintroduction back to America as well as supporting our UAW workers, supporting our dealers, supporting our employees. So I think it was a rally cry for us to just let everyone know that we're here and we're here to stay.Ilyse Liffreing (02:58):That's awesome. And such terrific actors in both of the commercials, Glenn Powell and Harrison Ford, and I feel like they speak to definitely different generations obviously of fans and types of moviegoers potentially. What were the main challenges of securing the talents?Raj Register (03:16):Gosh, so Glenn Powell, so we already have an established relationship with him for Ram. He did a really nice job with us for our integration that we had with Twisters. And so for him it was more of a natural fit. He has this serious nature, but he's also very funny. And so when we came up with the idea of Cody Lakson the Three Bears and using that old American fairytale to help bring to life something really cool and unique glim, I mean it was like a no-brainer, like let's extend this relationship because he's easy to work with, but then also he brings a lot to the table to help us with bringing things to life. So he was very involved with making sure that our script and how things showed up were authentic to him. But then also because he knows us as a brand, he knew certain things to lean into.(04:03):So he was a really good partner in that way. Harrison Ford was a lot more difficult for us to secure. So quite frankly, and if you've looked at any of the behind the scenes that were done, Harrison talked about his first answer was No, Olivier and a group of us went back and he started with a different script, one that paid homage to Harrison Ford, but then also related to us as a brand and the freedom of America. And so once we were able to align on the idea and have a script that Harrison actually reacted to in a positive way, he actually reviewed it with his wife and she said, now that's good. Then it was a matter of, okay, well who's the director who could work with him and make sure that this comes to life in the way that he's proud of as well as us? We tap James Mango and that was incredible. So they already have a really good relationship. Mango did four versus Ferrari, so he has this really extensive background in movies, but for commercials, this was, I believe it was his first one. And so just balancing the star power of Harrison, Mangold and Olivier, it was like the trifecta of greatness I would say. But it took a while for us to get to where we needed to be. We shot our Super Bowl at three weeks before,Ilyse Liffreing (05:24):Which that is a tight turnaround.Raj Register (05:27):It's a lot of pressure, but being on set and getting everything together, Harrison was amazing, but that one was definitely a day by day, how are we going to get this done? And just making sure that he felt comfortable with the commercial and it came out better than I could have expected. But that one definitely was a challenge, but in a good way.Damian Fowler (05:48):And it's interesting to note that Harrison rarely does commercials, so it was an amazing coup for you to getIlyse Liffreing (05:53):Him. Totally. And yeah, it's great that it came, but it's also a great example of the brand campaign overall because it's the power of choice and why was this the right message for the moment?Raj Register (06:08):Yeah, so just to clarify, so power of choice was our Ram ad and freedom of choice was our G ad. And so the reason why we chose those bookends of power and freedom one is it's the breadth and the quilt of America being able to make a choice and be happy and stand up for whatever it is that you want or whatever you believe in. The other part was is as we think about the way the automotive business is changing, there's a lot of energy around what type of vehicle should you choose? And our stance at Stellantis is, one, we want you to love our brands and our vehicles first, and then you make a choice as far as what platform or what energy you want. In both commercials we were able to highlight our ice vehicles, which is our gas hybrid and all electric.(07:04):With that being said, it's hey, making a choice should be fun. There's a lot of negative feedback around Bev versus not, or should you have a gas vehicle versus not. And for us it's you have the freedom or power to choose the vehicle that's best for you, and we want to make sure that you make a choice with us and giving customers the education of we are a company for a person like you and we just want you to choose with us. And so that was the premise of it and we were able to do it on one end very humorously. And the other was more around the freedom and pride of being American and being able to make a decision for yourself.Damian Fowler (07:43):Now, one of the most interesting things about the Super Bowl this year was that it was also streamed on Tubi, which is Fox's fast channel. And I wanted to get into this in terms of the campaign. How did you think about and come up with a digital strategy around that that goes beyond the second quarter ad?Raj Register (08:03):Yeah, so I'll just say even for the day of, it was interesting because being at Super Bowl, I got a chance to see what was happening on the two B app and really being able to just see the integration and being able to not only see our ad live, but also our halftime show. So that was incredible to see live TV while you're on the spot because it's a different experience. What consumers see at home is not the same as what you see in the stadium. The important thing for us was leveraging all opportunities from TV to streaming to social, to tell a complete story. And we want it to be just, okay, here's the TV spot and move on. How can we leverage other avenues to make sure that our story is getting out there and then continuing the story with our consumers or those that are interested in learning more. Yeah, there's a group that are watching on TV or in a environment where they're in a sports bar or something like that, but you also have these other group of customers that are watching on their phones. And so that's why it was important for us to leverage all avenues and all media channels to make sure that our collective 360 story was getting out there.Ilyse Liffreing (09:11):Totally. Did you know that it was going to be streamed on Tubi when you first made the buy?Raj Register (09:17):No, we didn't. And so I learned when I was in the suite with Fox Sports, and so they came and said, Raj, you can see everything live and here's how everything works. And so I had everything set up and it was really nice to see. So I was trying to balance be here in the moment, but then I was enthralled by Tubi and so throughout breaks and things like that, I was very much so engaged. So it was a surprise and delight for me and something that I'll definitely continue to leverage as we look at our media buying practices in the future.Ilyse Liffreing (09:49):Totally makes sense. Curious about how those overall numbers added to the results of the Super Bowl spots. And on that note, let's get into those results with the overall takeaway. First off, what was the reaction to the campaign overall?Raj Register (10:04):That one, we did something a little bit different than we typically do. So what we have normally done is Super Bowl is the coveted day. We don't do teasers as a company. Everyone sees it at the same time and it's under lock and key. And we tried something a bit different this year. So for Ram, we created some teasers and so we went live with our teasers a week before Super Bowl, and then on the Wednesday before we had an opportunity with the Today Show to show the entire commercial and really start some of the excitement and engagement before Super Bowl. From a press standpoint, the world knew or people knew that we would have a Jeep spot and we kept up with our previous practice of everything's under embargo, so no one knew that one, we had Harrison Ford or we had a two minute spot.(10:56):And so it was a complete really surprise to most people. And so to have that go live during the Super Bowl itself, I mean that just took off from a social sentiment standpoint. Me being a former Ford employee, I got so many text messages because the last line where Harrison talks about loving his Jeep even though his name is Ford, that was quite the zinger. And so everything that we've seen so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Positive sentiment for Jeep was 99%, and for Ram it was 98%. From a global PR standpoint, over 10 billion for ram, we had over 200 million views for Jeep, over 106 million views on social channels. So many recognition and rewards. Ad blitz was one where we were number one spot for Jeep, and so they just keep coming in. And so those are the things that you know, did the right thing.Ilyse Liffreing (11:52):Yeah, those are fantastic numbers.Damian Fowler (11:54):Amazing. I guess it's fair to say you hit your metrics for successRaj Register (11:58):For game day and right after. So another thing that we did differently this time is that we have usage rights for 90 days after Super Bowl, so it wasn't just a day of and done. We're leveraging the content for some localized messaging. We leveraged our websites CRM and really doing a complete 360 after the fact. So we'll have a postmortem after the 90 days of our campaign, which is something very different for us. And having cut downs and really being able to support more product and storytelling key, why buy messaging? And it's something that I think will be pivotal for us as a company and really set the stage for how we do things in the future.Damian Fowler (12:42):I'd love to zoom out a little bit. You have many iconic brands on your watch, not just Jeep and Ram, Dodge Chrysler and also European brands too. I wanted to ask you though, how do you balance your marketing across so many different brand identities while also sort of keeping in-house that cohesive idea of strategy for the whole company?Raj Register (13:05):At a company Stellantis where you have essentially a house of brands, you have the very all American Chrysler, Dodge, Ram G brands, and then Alpha Mayo and Fiat, each brand has its own DNA. And that's how I see it is the DNA is what sets the stage for the fabric of how that vehicle or how that brand should show up. And we need to be tried and true to that. Many times we get ideas and an agency may pitch us and it might be a great idea and say for example, they pitch us for Chrysler and it comes across as Dodge. I say that's a great idea, but it's very dodge, it's very brotherhood, badass speed power for Chrysler, more of the family with Pacifica and capability and off-road with Jeep and Ram also having capability. It's the only brand that has, and basically in the world that only does pickup trucks.(14:03):And so when you think of all those things, each brand has its own identity, and so you don't have to mix and match things. As individuals, we have our own personalities and as families, we have our own DNA. That's how I see the brands. And so that part to me is fairly easy to really just understand and make sure that there's clear lines of delineation. When I think of marketing though, there's best practices and there's things as a company that we know to be true. When we think about, for me, I have things that are considered either above the line or below and just really understanding what investment, what media channels, what optimization, what tactics are necessary for us to be successful with a particular nameplate or launch. And ensuring that I have a complete cohesive plan and really establishing what are my KPIs and goals and things that I need to make sure that I'm accomplishing.(14:58):If there's something that needs to be communicated and it falls below the line where we have maybe digital only or we're doing only experiential, really understanding what are my priorities, what am I trying to deliver upon? And then holding true to that. So as a company, having marketing rigor and expertise around what it is that we really need to establish as far as a North star. And then also working with our brand heads on does this meet the brand? DNA does it meet our customer goals? Does it meet our key why buys? And then you move forward. And so a lot of things we do are collaboratively. So it's not the marketing team on our own just driving things and bringing things out the door. It's how are we establishing what's necessary for us to be successful? And at the end of the day, it is about sales and share and making sure that we have a positive sentiment in the market and people are shopping us.Ilyse Liffreing (15:54):Speaking about shopping and digital, today's consumers are really omnichannel in their approach to shopping. How has that shift really impacted marketing in the auto sector? Is AI and automation having an impact on that approach?Raj Register (16:12):So I would say I don't know if AI necessarily has an impact as a compliment. And so what AI does, and when you think of omnichannel, it allows us to do things faster, more agile, more targeted, more regional focused. And so when I think of how customers consume things many times it takes them seeing something in many different places and how are we collectively telling a story and really understanding what part of the funnel are we leveraging, what channel for and ensuring that we're doing it in the most authentic way that is not overbearing to someone that's receiving it. But to me I see it as how are we taking them down the funnel? So if on TV I'm leveraging a brand campaign for excitement and engagement, but then when a customer sees a similar ad or a version of it at the digital level where they're now as a call to action where we're saying, Hey, learn more, there's a call to action for either building price or learning more about our features and options.(17:17):And then when you get to the deal level, allowing them to be the closer of the play. And so all of these things should be, as I said, in compliment with one another. Whenever we create something, we leverage AI to help us with not only creating faster content in a way that gives us that agility, but then we also use it for our data and our forecasting for our modeling and how are we leveraging our media channels, and then also how are things performing and then helping set the stage for, well, you did this component very well, how do you go deeper in a particular audience or market to help establish what success really looks like? And so I think AI is very complimentary in a positive way to really help establish not only from a content perspective, but when you think about performance, it definitely helps guide it from a forecast standpoint what we should expect or how we should leverage certain investments.Ilyse Liffreing (18:18):Certainly, and it's hard enough obviously to differentiate the brands from each other and keep true to their own brand guidelines, but as a marketer, you have to also differentiate your brands from competitors like GM and Ford and Tesla. What shapes basically your approach to that,Raj Register (18:43):The brand, DNA, when you have that and it's rooted in everything you do, we don't have to worry about looking or sounding like someone else because we know who we are. And that when you have that as your true north is very easy to really understand who you are and where you show up. Now when I think of brand health and brand sentiment and things that we need to listen to customers on, so for example, if we have feedback that's saying our brand is beloved, but customers don't understand our features and technology or they don't understand capability or they don't understand certain components, we use that as data to help us with our storytelling, especially at the tier two and retail level, to really start leaning into things that maybe we're missing the boat on, especially if it's something that we believe is a key factor as to a why buy. But when I think of a Tesla or a Ford or a gm, they have their own brand identities as well. And so trying to chase or be them is not the answer. Many of our brands have been in place for decades. I mean, Chrysler will be coming up on its hundredth anniversary at this point. We know who we are. And holding true to that I think is the most important thing you can ever do as a brand and as a marketer.Damian Fowler (20:07):I love that answer. When you know who you are, that's what you lean on. And I think that goes for individuals too in lots of ways. Not to get too psychological about this, but it is a true, it's true. Yeah, it's true. I know that there's a question here about, and maybe that's the answer to this next question, but when things are changing, big picture, macro conditions, global economy, which has a big impact on the auto industry, how do you as a marketer stay focused?Raj Register (20:35):Yeah, and that's an interesting question because when you think of macroeconomic factors, it can be competitive actions. It could be things like tariffs. There's all these things that you need to take into consideration. And the things that we can control, the controllables, I always make sure I understand what those things are. The things that I can't control are the things that I consider noise, meaning there's disruption and people don't like Stellantis because of X, Y, and Z, or this decision was made, we had a lot of leadership change over, we can't digest all of that. And so what I try to do is make sure that whatever plan is done soundly, it's inclusive of any key stakeholders that are necessary to help us make whatever decision it is that we're going to market with. And then also having consistency. And so yes, there's external things that we need to have into consideration, but if we run our business and change day by day, fly by fly, we'll be a weather report. We won't be able to really hold true. So for me, having consistency and sticking to a plan, now you need to have some agility in there to account for things that are more major. But when I think of major versus minor, I try to keep the minors at bay plan for the majors as much as I can, but then hold true. The more you're consistent and the more you have a plan that you stick to, the better success you have.Ilyse Liffreing (22:08):So it said marketing is a balance between art and science. Do you agree?Raj Register (22:14):A thousand percent. A thousand percent. So when I think of art and science one, that's my background. So I have an engineering background, very much science. And then when you have the marketing piece, there is science there, but there's a lot of art. And when you bridge the two together and you know how to yin and yang the two, it works. While I love data, I love to make sure that things are technically sound. I also recognize that there's art in here that you can never discount. And so I think it's an important balance to respect both parts of it. And when you're able to marry the two together, that's where I think the magic happens.Damian Fowler (22:54):What are you obsessed with figuring out right now?Raj Register (22:57):I'm obsessed with figuring out modernization of marketing. And when I say that it's what are the disruptive things that are not necessarily on the map? So we have a voiceover talent that we use for G, and this is a recognizable voice, and we've used this same individual for over a decade. He got into a car accident and his vocal cords were damaged, we had a decision to make. It's going to be a different voice that we maybe don't want to necessarily use. This wasn't the decision, or could we leverage technology using AI to recreate his voice, get him into an agreement, still going to compensate and all of those things. But how do we continue with ensuring that there's a human part of this? We use the technology, but we were able to still move ourselves forward. And so that's an example for me of I'm obsessed with how do you create opportunities? And again, it goes to the art and science to create things that may be a challenge that you can fix quickly, or are there things that I'm not thinking about that are very different and disruptive that I can start grounding myself on today because it's going to be even more relevant in five years.Ilyse Liffreing (24:20):What if you had an unlimited budget? What would be your marketing dream? What would you doRaj Register (24:27):If I had an unlimited budget? Really being able to establish a true footprint that gave true indication of what things are necessary for all consumers, whether they're African-American, Hispanic women, millennials, whoever it is, being able to create very bespoke one-to-one communications for them at the stage and at the channel that they need to make a decision. I think being able to create something like that and really understanding what's necessary, what drives someone, and then being able to truly correlate a marketing action with a true business sale impact, whatever the call to action is, I think it would be huge. Right now, we guess we say, okay, there's all these things. They clicked on an ad, they did X, Y, and Z, but we don't always know, especially for a big purchase for online things, that's easier to track. But when I think of true decision making, what are the things that really triggers individuals to make a choice and be able to correlate it to business results, I think is something that I've not yet seen done. And if I were to be able to crack that code, I'd be winning. So I think that's limitless.Damian Fowler (25:50):So Eli, what were your kind of thoughts off the back of it?Ilyse Liffreing (25:54):Yeah, I really liked how she talked about consistency, especially being a brand that is so prevalent in today's culture. She said, the more you're consistent, the better for customers because customers can see if you're not. Basically, she said, if we change every day, we're just going to be like a weather reports.Damian Fowler (26:15):That was very grounding. And I think when you talk about omnichannel campaigns and you think about the consistency of the brand across all of those channels, that's got to be a huge factor. The thing that resonates with me about that too is the fact that she talked about the DNA of each brand in her portfolio, whether it be Ram or Jeep, and just knowing that that was kind of a revelation to me. You can lean back on that idea. And I thought that kind of idea of when you know who you are, things are easy at is easier. So that was something that really stuck with me. And then there was one other thing she said that clarity of thought when she said it's what now, so what? Now what? And I just thought that was a really nice way of structuring the way a marketing campaign might be planned and then how it might roll out.Ilyse Liffreing (27:03):I also liked how she talked about the balance between art and science, whether data only tells us so much, but you got to lean into things with your heart as well.Damian Fowler (27:10):Hearts and minds, right? That's the old adage.Ilyse Liffreing (27:13):That is. That's it for this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler (27:19):This series is produced by Molten Hart. The Current Podcast theme is by loving caliber, and The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Raj Register (27:26):And remember the brand DNA. When you have that and it's rooted in everything you do, we don't have to worry about looking or sounding like someone else because we know who we are.Damian Fowler (27:39):I'm Ilyse, I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

At SXSW, The Current Podcast partnered with The Female Quotient to spotlight trailblazing women in media and marketing to mark International Women's Day and Women's History Month.In this episode, we sit down with Andrea Gilman, chief marketing officer at Early Warning, owner of digital payments services Paze and Zelle, to discuss how she's driving innovation in digital payments. 

At SXSW, The Current Podcast partnered with The Female Quotient to spotlight trailblazing women in media and marketing to mark International Women's Day and Women's History Month.In this episode, we sit down with Melissa Giordano, chief client officer at CMI Media Group, to discuss how AI, data, and personalized messaging are reshaping healthcare marketing.

Rebecca Dye Yonushonis, CMO of New Belgium Brewing, discusses the brand's bold strategy to connect with Gen Z consumers through its new launch, Lightstrike.

Genentech VP, CMO Erica Taylor joins The Current Podcast to share her unique journey from immunology to biotech marketing, and the evolving role of biotech brands in mainstream media.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Kat Vesce (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce. And I'm Ilyse Liffreing and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're spotlighting trailblazing women in marketing at this year's South by Southwest.Ilyse Liffreing (00:16):For this episode, we're excited to be joined by Erica Taylor, vice president and chief marketing Officer at Genentech, a company at the forefront of biotech innovation for over 40 years.Kat Vesce (00:28):Erica has a unique background transitioning from a PhD in immunology and a product development into the world of marketing, bringing a scientific perspective to how Genentech connects with global healthcare providers and patients.Ilyse Liffreing (00:41):We'll dive into how that background informs her approach to marketing, the game changing campaign she's led, and how the biotech industry is evolving to embrace more creative, emotionally driven storytelling.Kat Vesce (00:54):Plus Erica will share her perspective on how women in STEM can break barriers and what the future of healthcare marketing holds. Let's get started.Ilyse Liffreing (01:01):So Erica, thanks for being here at South by Southwest. Thanks for having me. Of course. So you have a unique background for a CMO growing part of your career on the product development side of biotech. After earning your PhD from Stanford Medical School, what drew you to the marketing side of biotech and why don't we see more medical students transition into heading up marketing departments?Erica Taylor (01:25):Yeah, I sometimes think that I have the habit of just showing up in places I'm not supposed to be, and so I certainly didn't go into my studies in immunology with the idea that I was going to end up in marketing. I would've never have thought that that would be the case. It really sort of became apparent to me that I was very much interested in the intersection of business and science when I was nearing the end of my graduate program, but I wasn't really sure how to do that or how to get there. So I explored a lot and I often share when I do development conversations with folks in the industry that I've probably not gotten more jobs than I've gotten in my life trying to figure out how to be in these other spaces. But for me, the journey really started in consulting.(02:07):I was in management consulting for biotech and pharma industry, and that is what led me to Genentech. And at my career there I have had roles in analytics and in sales, and it was probably my time in sales that really got me interested in marketing. And so I was able to sort of land a role in marketing and to do so at a company that innovates on science. I think they were able to sort of see, okay, she maybe doesn't have a background in marketing, but she understands the science, she understands how to communicate it and what actually moves markets when you're in the sales field.Ilyse Liffreing (02:38):How has that background informed your approach as a CMO? Why is that scientific medical knowledge and maybe even sales knowledge so valuable?Erica Taylor (02:48):Yeah, I think one of the things that was a bit of an aha for me in my sales role was I'll say one of the most professionally transformative experiences I had, which is code for saying it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And you learn a lot about what actually motivates people in the decisions that they make. And marketing is really focused on influencing a decision that people make and you realize even though I have a background in science and people very much need to understand why they're making the decision they're making. If you're a provider making a prescribing decision or a patient choosing between options for medicines available to you, you need to understand the why of that. But really there has to be some kind of emotional pull there. And I was really fascinated with that because I sort of come from a very cerebral training of like, well, we've got this data and here are the patients for which benefit the most, and so therefore this is the natural conclusion of the decision you would make. In fact, it's far more complex than that and it's that complexity of human behavior that I got really interested in as I grew in the marketing organization. So I try to bring both the left and right brain such as it were to that thinking.Kat Vesce (03:53):As the best marketers do. We ask everyone this question, I want to go a little bit deeper. Is there a specific moment that changed the game for you as a marketer? Tell us your most defining career moment or pivot to date and what the obstacles were there.Erica Taylor (04:10):Yeah, I could probably name a few. I get the most depth in moments and insights when I actually get to interact with patients and with providers and sort of understand deeply their experiences. And one of the ahas that I got actually both in my sales and then later in my marketing role is that yes, Genentech, you guys have been trailblazing and biotech and you have been innovating, but the data is so complex even though I'm trained in this field with the patient loads that I see every day, I don't have time and you guys don't make it simple for us. And so the aha there is like, okay, then marketing campaigns have to really focus on taking very complex science, which I feel fortunate to understand, but boil it down to something that's very simple, that's very memorable. And the same for patients. Very often when I'm in conversations with providers, I have the patient in mind when I'm thinking about how I would want this medicine explained to me, and that is how I explain it to the provider thinking maybe if a couple of my phrasing or words sort of land, well then that's what gets repeated to the patient so that they understand the choices that they have before them.Kat Vesce (05:17):I love that. And as a biotech company now over 40 years old, how would you say your approach to campaign strategy differs from typical healthcare campaigns?Erica Taylor (05:25):Yeah, well for one,Kat Vesce (05:26):A little bit of that patient in mind.Erica Taylor (05:28):Yeah, the patient for sure in mind. And one of the things that I'm very happy to spearhead as the chief marketing officer is really thinking about how do we make that more and more personal? It's not the patient, it is the patient that may be a single parent that lives 45 minutes from their local healthcare system. How do I speak to that patient just as much as I speak to the patient that has a high powered career and really doesn't have the time to focus on themselves and needs something to be quick and convenient? And so really the opportunity before us is to figure out how to become more nuanced, relevant and personalized when we tell the stories of our medicines. What I love about Genentech and our ability to do that is we've always been focused on two things, patience and science. And as long as we keep those two centered in everything that we do, I think we're able to kind of meet that mark.(06:14):Maybe the other thing I'll add, because the idea of speaking in personalized ways is not new. It's not rocket science, it's not even the more complex things that we do, but the technology and the capabilities that exist maybe outside of healthcare are now being applied in our space. And so very excited about what things like generative AI can do for us and really being able to personalize our stories around our medicines and our development. But at scale, we market over 40 medicines, and so it's great to do this in one or two places, but imagine doing that across the full breadth of our portfolio.Kat Vesce (06:47):And I imagine that 40 medications or medicines times however many profiles fit the many faces of patients.Erica Taylor (06:57):Exactly.Kat Vesce (06:58):Yeah, you really need some automation there.Erica Taylor (07:00):Absolutely. The scale of the problem is impossible, and unless I'm getting sort of a complete blank check to build all the resources that I need, we've got to find ways to be more efficient with that.Ilyse Liffreing (07:09):So that has really got me thinking because as much as the customer is number one and everything, but you also have to speak to the provider and they're the ones who are going to be really selling your medicine to the patient themselves. How do you solve, I guess, for your need to resonate with both the customer provider and then who would you consider highest priority in those campaigns?Erica Taylor (07:34):No, it's a really, really great question. One of the things that I love about the healthcare space is that your decision maker and your end user are almost never the same person. And that's not totally unique. It's uncommon. But you could imagine parents buying baby formula are also decision makers, but generally not. And users, unless you were like me and got desperate and ran out of half and half and put baby formula in, coffee works great. Extra nutrients. Exactly. Yeah, life hack. So it's not totally unique, but you have to kind of speak to two audiences. So because of the breadth of our portfolio, we really do think about this disease state by disease state. So there are some disease states where really the provider is the driving decision maker. Examples of this can be if you're having a stroke and you're in the hospital, you're probably not deciding between which medications are right for now, you're really driven by the provider's decision maker.(08:31):You can think about that in some of our later line cancer portfolios. When you're in your past, your first two lines of treatment, you're really going to be relying on your provider to understand what are the next, so in those cases, we tend to focus more on the provider and the prescribing decision maker. There are other parts of our portfolio where it's really very much patient driven. We have a medicine that treats food allergy, and that really then tends to involve in some cases, adolescents, their parents. And so we really need to elevate their voices when we're thinking about how we make sure they have the right information. So it really can span the gamut, and it's about taking a specific view of that particular disease state and how decision-making is made.Ilyse Liffreing (09:09):That's amazing. Now the biotech category is not known for being exactly sexy when it comes to creative marketing. It's bogged down with side effects and similar storylines usually. How are you guys moving the needle in terms of creating those powerful maybe storytelling campaigns?Erica Taylor (09:30):Yeah, I mean, we are a regulated industry and I'll state first. It's actually really important that we give that information. Any medicine that anyone is going to take, you have to weigh the benefits and the risks, and it is on us to communicate that fairly. And so I very much stand behind that. As a scientist, we really have to do that, but that can also make it really hard to know what's what we're trying to do this. So for me, I always try to root in the emotion and what I tell my teams all the time at the end of everything we do is someone who is sick and scared and how do we really tap into that? What do they need in that moment of diagnosis? What do they need in that moment when they're a week out from treatment and they're not really sure if what they're experiencing is normal?(10:14):Really kind of capturing those moments along the patient's journey. And similarly for the provider's journey, if I were to be oversimplified providers saying 15, 20 patients a day, how do we find ways to make their challenging lives as easy as possible, as simple as possible? And so we kind of think of that almost in two tracks. Some of the best creative that I see really speaks to that emotion. We did a campaign in our ophthalmology franchise last year called A Beautiful Site, which really chronicles a parent watching their child go through the education and then that parent one day becoming a patient. And it's really a motive. We actually don't talk a ton about the medicine itself, but more the experience of what it's like when you're struggling with your eyesight and it's gotten a lot of traction just by speaking to that lived experience.Kat Vesce (11:03):We're going to shift the conversation and zoom out a little bit.Erica Taylor (11:05):Okay.Kat Vesce (11:05):Though biotech is not new by any means, the category was catapulted into the spotlight in mainstream media during the height of COVID-19 something very intimately a thing or two. Yes. Yeah. Gilead at the time, you saw this firsthand with your previous role. And tell us a little bit about that experience. What do you think has changed for the industry as a whole since then?Erica Taylor (11:27):Oh wow. So many things. I had so many reactions kind of experiencing as we all did. The sort of the Covid Ovid 19 crisis, the first among them is that science really became front and center. And as a scientist, I get excited, finally, we're getting the credit we deserve, but so much about it was what I understand is science. Science is slow and painstaking. It's a step forward, it's a step to the right, it's a step back. It's two steps forward. That is how science happens. The lay public for the most part just sees it at the end. And so you get to tell this story, but that's not actually how it went down. Think about your vaccines for things like polio. We weren't following the day to day of that. We just had it. And we go, great. That's wonderful science. So when looking through the vaccine development for Covid, we're kind of watching day by day, is it six feet?(12:17):What kind of mask? How do I do this? And so we got, I think people lost trust in science and that really was heartbreaking because that's actually how it is. And for me it's the resilience of the people that continue to pursue when you get up and the thing you thought was going to work didn't work today, and you get up tomorrow and go do it. And we were able to break through in that way. That's the one thing on the science side, on the marketing side, we now know names of biotech companies. No one generally does know that I get true. My branded medication, I get this branded, that branded medication. Now the names of the companies that produced the vaccines, you would go in and say, I want the Moderna one or the Pfizer one. That has never really happened before in our industry.(13:03):And we've had to go from being a sort of what I'll call a house of brands, the branded medication, to really thinking about, well, what is the worth in branding the house, the Genentechs of the world? We're actively thinking about how we do that, especially as we come to our 50th anniversary as a company next year. So I know there's a lot of activity and thinking, how do we strategically do this that is authentic to who we are as an organization and elevates all of the work that we do, all of the scientists that pursue day in and day out, all of the patients that we've been able to help improve the lives of.Kat Vesce (13:39):So in a world that we've been talking about has changed so much since Covid. Absolutely. People also expect more from companies than ever before. How do you align your corporate positioning with Genentech, with your creative output?Erica Taylor (13:51):Yeah. I think to me this is about relevance and authenticity. I think there's so much content in your life in and out of healthcare to consume, and I think people are far more discerning of what feels authentic to them, what feels true, what feels pandered to right today is International Women's Day. There's lots of celebrations around Women's Day. Not everyone has been consistent about really centering women and thinking about what are the things that women could benefit from and could use, I think, and the women walking around here today, they know the difference. And so I think for us, the onus is being true to who we are, being authentic, really, and as relevant as we can. And I think about that just sort of from the broader Genentech, but also how do we think about this product by product? What is the authentic experiences and where do we show up really matters? One of the things that I tell my teams all the time, I'm like, we'd say the word patient. They are people, which sounds obvious, but you can easily lose sight of the fact that the fact that someone is a patient is probably in the bottom five of the top 100 things they like about their life. So you want to be there when needed and the hell out of their lives when not. Right. And so how do we thread that line appropriately,Ilyse Liffreing (15:13):Right? Yeah,Erica Taylor (15:14):It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.Ilyse Liffreing (15:16):You could argue it's harder than your average CPG brandErica Taylor (15:19):ForIlyse Liffreing (15:19):Instance.Erica Taylor (15:20):Absolutely.Ilyse Liffreing (15:21):Absolutely.Erica Taylor (15:22):So it keeps it interesting for sureIlyse Liffreing (15:23):Yeah. Now, I know we kind of talked about this a little bit, but I wanted to zoom out here a little bit because of this trend, it seems like it's a trend anyway, and I'm curious what you think, but during the Super Bowl, there were stronger examples of creative lead pharma and biotech ads competing against the typical ads you would see during the Super Bowl usually. What do you think about this? Is that where we're moving as an industry?Erica Taylor (15:51):I think it's interesting. I feel like I'm a student of commercials. I actually personally love football, so I consume every second of the Super Bowl bowls for the game and then the ads that show. I think it's interesting and I think it's a space worth exploring as an industry. And I think we've seen, there's a Pfizer ad that was released this year. I think they did one last year as well. I think we're still trying to figure out how to land the mark. And Super Bowl is an interesting venue to do that. Most people don't want to see a drug commercial. They're eating nachos, they're watching a game, they're maybe cheering on a team, they're waiting for the halftime show, whatever. But how do you land in a space that is supposed to be celebratory in light with something that's relevant and important? I think it's worth exploring personally. I'm sort of like, let's see where there might be a relevant kind of meeting of the moment. And it might be specific to just that year, right? Or just this particular thing that we have in our portfolio that's innovative that we want to make sure people know about.(16:54):I don't know that I'd paint a brush and do it everywhere for all things personally, a hundredKat Vesce (16:58):Percent. ButErica Taylor (16:59):I'm sure there's probably other marketers on this listening here that'll say, no, you should be pushing. And I'm curious, sort of very curious about where this could go and interested to see,Ilyse Liffreing (17:10):Since we're at South by Southwest and this is International Women's Day, I'd love to get your take on some of these female focused questions. Sure. So first of all, what inspired you to pursue a career in marketing and how has your journey been as a woman in the industry? I know with your strong STEM background especially, do you feel like there's still a much needed boost in how women pursue stem?Erica Taylor (17:34):Well, I am particularly passionate about STEM fields and as a self-proclaimed and bonafide nerd, I think the more in which ways in which we can celebrate that the better. I think it is interesting. We've seen increasing percentages of women pursuing STEM careers, which I applaud. It's not even the painted, I think more in medicine and healthcare related fields, I think there's still more gains to be had in fields like engineering and computer science. And one of the things that are very critical if we want to truly unlock things like artificial intelligence, I think there's more to do there. But I feel very much the, I feel like I'm coming behind women that have gone before and have really blazed trails, and I feel the same responsibility to make sure that whatever trail someone believes I've blazed or not is easier for whoever comes behind me. And I feel a deep obligation that I spend a good amount of my time mentoring and developing everyone, not just women, but folks that are interested in, as I call it, being in places you're not supposed to be. I think it just makes for a an interesting career path and journey. And I don't know what I'll do in the future. I still dunno what I want to do when I grow up. I'm having a great time now. And so I look to mentors that help see, oh, okay, that's how you did that.Kat Vesce (18:59):Can we better support women in leadership roles? You mentioned mentorship. What are some other ways you're leaning into that?Erica Taylor (19:06):Yeah, I think it can come up in both direct ways, like mentorship. I think those programs benefit everyone. And both I learned from them and I learn a lot about some of the challenges that people face in their careers now. I think there's subtle ways. One of, I think the most powerful things that we can do is as leaders show up honestly and authentically and not be afraid of showing moments of vulnerability. And I think it humanizes you. I had an experience last year where my husband got very, very ill and I needed to have a pretty major surgery. He's doing great now. But sort of living through that and thinking about how do I do the job? I've asked, I've been asked to do, but show up authentically with my team and let them know, Hey, I've got kind of a lot going on at home right now and I don't even know that I navigated that line well. But more recently actually got up on stage in front of my full organization and kind of shared the story. And I did it in the context of marketing and what it meant to have healthcare providers sort give me exactly what I need in the moment to help support him through this.Kat Vesce (20:22):What a full circle moment.Erica Taylor (20:24):It was somewhat of a spontaneous decision, but I think as certainly women leaders as leaders, your podcasters don't know this, but I'm a woman of color, so a lot of things that are not typical about where I show up in spaces. And the more that I can make it that I'm still human, I'm still me, and I go through life the same way you do, you never know what people are walking around with kind of position. I think that helps invite others to say, okay, maybe I didn't get a PhD. Maybe I don't have these things, but I am as human as she is and maybe I can make it there too. I think there's value in that, even though I was literally shaking in my boots to tell that story to one stage, that's a hard thing to do. And fighting to keep my composure and be as authentic as I could. Well,Kat Vesce (21:13):That's the most humanErica Taylor (21:14):Response ever. Yeah.Kat Vesce (21:15):So inspiring. What advice would you give to the next generation of marketing leaders, including we talked about not just young women, but everyone looking to grow into that leadership role?Erica Taylor (21:29):Yeah, I usually give, and there's a couple schools of thought on this, so this is sort of Erica's school of thought on this, right? I think that you have to strike this balance between having depth of knowledge but getting breadth of experience. And it's a really hard one to thread, especially if you're doing something you love. You just want to do more and more and more and more. And there may be great growth paths to be had in that. But a lot of the advice that I give to folks, it's like every time you think about pursuing another role, I am going to apply for this role. It's a promotion, it's a lateral, it think two moves ahead. Does it unlock more options for you? And be very aware, my more senior leaders, I'm like, you have to understand you're at a point in your seniority where making lateral moves gets harder.(22:12):And so you want to make them in your earlier points in your career when you can. Because one, there's just more of those roles. I'm a vice president, there's not a lot of us at Genentech. And so if I want to move laterally, I have fewer options. I have to be that much more thoughtful about it. But I feel like I come at this with the space of a more breadth of experience, but you still got to know the job. So you kind of have to navigate this sort of, as I call it, the difference between scuba and snorkel. If you can scuba dive and go deep, understand that that has ramifications for your career development. If you only snorkel, also ramifications for your career development. And then the other piece of advice I give folks is try not to plan more than a couple of years ahead because 10 years from now, you're going to do a job that doesn't exist today.(22:59):So I'm first CMO, so I couldn't have won this job. It didn't exist until three years ago, right? Plan for a couple of years at a time. And if you're weighing a couple of options that are otherwise equal to you go with the team you'd rather have more fun with, go with the team. You want to come hang out in Austin, Texas with, right? And you're never going to go wrong. Working on teams that you enjoy with each other. We have a really great and strong culture at Genentech, and I'm always like, if you see a leader you want to go work with, find a way to get on that person's team. So those are usually the kinds of advice I give to everyone. And then maybe the other, and this is more, I'm of a certain age wouldn'tKat Vesce (23:41):Know it. PodcastersErica Taylor (23:43):Of a certain age worry a lot less, and someone gave me this advice, what am I going to do? How am I going to get that job? Blah, blah, blah. You've got to work a long time. Most if you're lucky, and many people do, and so worry a lot less about what's going to happen in a decade, worry a lot less about that person that's your peer that just got that promotion and they're going to go farther than you. Career path is their own and everything happens kind of exactly as it should. And so I try really hard to, especially for folks that I get the sort of fresh from business school and they're like, I've got to be CEO in five years. And I'm like, I don't dunno. Let's worry a little less about the timing and worry much more about the kinds of experiences you get to have along the way, what you get to learn and who you get to meet.Kat Vesce (24:37):Well,Erica Taylor (24:37):Erica, thank youKat Vesce (24:38):So much and thanks for your vulnerability and sharing those tidbits and stories. I so appreciate this time. I know we're both leaving really inspired soErica Taylor (24:46):Much. Thank you. I'm so happy to do this. I appreciate the invite. I hope it's helpful for your listeners. Yeah, no, it great. I'm sure it will be. Thank you so much. Thanks.Kat Vesce (24:55):Wow. I am blown away. I am walking away from that conversation with Erica Taylor. So inspired. I don't know about you.Ilyse Liffreing (25:02):Oh my gosh, yes. I love how vulnerable she was about talking about her husband, and not only to, I mean us, but to her whole company. And it takes a very brave and smart woman to be able to be open like that.Kat Vesce (25:17):And also what a full circle moment. I mean to be the CMO of a company that is marketing, I think she said 40 different medications, and then to be on the receiving end of that and navigating as your own family is going through the fear and intensity of recovering from an ailment.Ilyse Liffreing (25:40):As she said, everybody has their own stuff they're going through.Kat Vesce (25:43):Yeah. Yeah. That was really inspiring. I also just loved how she went into the tension that she faces as a marketer, which I can't think of any other category that has this same predicament of wanting to stay relevant and be top of mind for the inpatient or the provider, but also not wanting to be there all the time, and to be able to dip in and out when needed. Because ultimately her end goal she was saying was to keep people healthy. And so I think that's a really refreshing take, especially hearing it from a biotech company like Genentech, that you could hear horror stories about companies being incentivized to keep people sick. And I just loved that as a marketer. She's thinking through it from a place of just being authentic to getting people healthyIlyse Liffreing (26:35):Completely. And she also mentioned in a world like Post Covid, everybody now has their eyes on those companies, which is huge because pre covid, nobody knew what shots you were getting from whom. And now it's like, what shot did you get? The Pfizer or the Moderna.Kat Vesce (26:55):Yeah. And there was even some kind of ranking around them at one point. Yeah, totally. So yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting how biotech and pharma are now getting into the brand marketing side of the house. And I liked her answer that she's trepidatious about how and when to deploy that. So overall, just super inspiring conversation. I'm walking away just beaming talking to all these amazing women. That's wonderful. And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

PNC Bank Chief Marketing Officer Jenn Garbach joins The Current Podcast at SXSW as part of International Women's Day and Women's History Month. Garbach shares insights on the success of the bank's Brilliantly Boring campaign and reflects on her journey in marketing, tackling imposter syndrome, and balancing career growth with family life. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Kat Vesce (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce.Ilyse Liffreing (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're highlighting powerhouse women in marketing who are making an impact in theirKat Vesce (00:17):Industries. For this episode, we're thrilled to be joined by Jenn Garbach, chief marketing officer at PNC Bank, where she's redefining how 160 year old financial institution connects with modern consumers.Ilyse Liffreing (00:28):Jenn and her team launched brilliantly Boring, a campaign that leans into humor, trust, and authenticity.Kat Vesce (00:34):We'll dive into the strategy behind the campaign, the results that made it a game changer, and how PNC is balancing modernization with legacy in an industry built on tradition.Ilyse Liffreing (00:44):Plus, we'll discuss Jenn's insights on leadership and empowering women in the industry. Let's get started. So Jenn, it's wonderful for you to join us today at our studio at the Female Quotient Lounge during South by Southwest.Jenn Garbach (01:00):Thank you so much for having me. Yay.Ilyse Liffreing (01:02):So last July, PNC Bank came up with the campaign brilliantly boring. It's the first work with your new agency of record, Arnold Worldwide. Why is this campaign a game changer for the 160 year old brand?Jenn Garbach (01:15):Well, nothing infuses life and vigor into a brand like putting the word boring into it, but this has been a really fun opportunity for us to help match the growth trajectory of the business by rethinking the way we're telling the story about PNC in the marketplace. And so brilliantly boring has really been about taking that step forward, defining our brand in a way that brings distinction resonance in a very, very crowded and commoditized financial services market and is really authentic to who we are as an organization at PNC. Amazing.Ilyse Liffreing (01:48):And why lean into the word boring by any chance? The term is not, I guess, usually one you would associate with a creative campaign.Jenn Garbach (01:55):It isn't, but it works so well for us. And I think the single biggest thing is boring is very authentic to who PNC is. And give me a moment. Because what we're really proud of is redefining what boring means. Boring doesn't mean old stuck in our ways. What we're redefining boring as is steady, reliable, and trustworthy. And why that's really important to us is that we know financial services has seen as an industry has seen its ups and downs, not just recently, but frankly over time. And so the ability to signal to our customers that we are a bank that is 160 years old and that we have been steady and reliable along the way is really important. And how are you guys telling a story across Lakewood channels? We're across all mass channels right now, so you'll see us on tv, online, video, social media, and then pulling increasingly through our lower funnel and direct marketing. So that's been another fun part of bringing brilliantly boring to life in all aspects of PNCs marketing.Kat Vesce (02:53):I love that reframe too. And reclaiming the word boring to make it something more meaningful and more related to steadiness ofJenn Garbach (03:00):I think that's right. And what we hear in the marketplace too is while there's a lot of pressure to keep up in the marketplace, and we are certainly innovating and bringing new products, new technology to market, when you do the consumer research, you do not hear people saying, you know what I want from my bank? A really flashy forward bank that is doing all of these technological things. People want their money to be there when they need it. They're looking for a steady, reliable partner. And frankly, they're not thinking about financial services all the time, but when they need their money, they want to know it's there and they have access to it. And that's at the nexus of redefining brilliantly boring is we'll do all the boring stuff behind the scenes so that you can live the brilliant life that you want. You can be the brilliant business owner and run your business the way that you want.Kat Vesce (03:46):I love that. Less risks, less flash, more reliability.Jenn Garbach (03:49):That's right.Kat Vesce (03:50):So it seems like PNC Bank has not only undertaken a rehaul in terms of messaging, but a technical one as well. How has your previous experience as the head of global marketing, planning, operations and transformation at PayPal helped steer your strategy in reaching today's consumers for PNC Bank?Jenn Garbach (04:06):I'm going to lean into the campaign for a second and bear with me on this one. Part of the content extension of Brilliantly Boring is our boring before brilliance content series. And so we work with sports athletes like Scott Dixon, who's an indie car racer, or Steve Stricker who's a PGA golfer, and tell the story about all the boring, repetitive, seemingly mundane aspects of their training routines that show up in these moments of brilliance, whether it's on the racetrack, on the course. And that really sits behind when I think about not only my experience, but what we are doing at PNC, which is operational excellence is the foundation of what leads to brilliance of how we go to market and how we're able to connect and resonate with customers. So I think a bunch of that experience before leading through many different forms of transformation is making sure that we don't ignore the boring basics, those steady, reliable aspects of making sure we have process technology capabilities that we're training the team and helping set them up to take advantage of all of those new capabilities. And then how that shows up is us really resonating in a different way through campaigns like brilliantly boring, but also in our one-to-one marketing, our personalization efforts and really bringing value and resonance to the customers that we're working with.Kat Vesce (05:26):And let's shift into the results of this campaign. How is brilliantly boring performing? Is it reaching the right audience? Are you hitting everything that you set out to do with it? Any surprising results?Jenn Garbach (05:37):Yeah, we are really, really excited. So, so far we are firing in all dimensions right now by the numbers. Our return on ad spend is up 12% compared to prior campaigns. Our brand lift is up with statistically significant increase, which as we are on a growth trajectory as bank, moving from this super regional tier and competing increasingly with the big national banks signaling that we are a big national bank, someone that consumers can trust, seeing lift in all of those metrics is really important and something that we were looking for. And I think the one that's really fun and gives us some real time feedback is we have the highest positive social sentiment that we have ever had in our history of recording that. And that's really showing the engagement and the fun and the humor shining through with this campaign and how, I mean, you guys know, social is a channel that is very easy for folks to come in with negative thoughts or complaints. And so the idea that we're able to create really positive engagement is a nice feedback loop and response for us right now.Ilyse Liffreing (06:42):And now I understand that the campaign not only moved the needle in terms of reaching customers, but also internally kind of working as a way to center your corporate PNC around guideposts. Can you explain why?Jenn Garbach (06:58):I think having a campaign like this has done a bunch of really great things for us. It's been a culture carrier and in some ways defining our brand in this way is giving folks a way to see themselves and the work that they do. You don't have to be in marketing to be a part of brilliantly boring. You can be a credit underwriter, you can be in operations, you can be in the frontline working in the care center in a branch and really live and embody that spirit of brilliantly boring. It's also just help us give a story internally. So there's this mirror image of what we're trying to do with new breakthrough storytelling externally, but that same thing applies internally. One of the things I love most is hearing folks play back, Hey, for the first time I'm watching our new TV ads and it feels like we're putting PNC on stage with those other big banks that I'm used to seeing other banks, other companies show up like this. And it's a source of pride for folks to be able to see themselves. So really, really pleased that it is carrying that torch for us internally. And then it helps us connect further with the brand is not just the campaign. The brand is the culmination of all of our product services and experiences. And so having folks feel that connected is really impactful.Ilyse Liffreing (08:11):Now I want to take a moment and kind of see the big picture here because you mentioned before that we're living in a time of high distrust of banks. Now how does this campaign and then perhaps any future ones you're working on, what does it do to calm those consumers fears in this area? Where is this fear coming from originally? I guess really? Where does the responsibility of the marketer come in here?Jenn Garbach (08:40):I think it's being honest and really assessing the marketplace landscape that we're operating in today. Right. And while I may not be proud of it, it's fairly evident to be able to say that financial services has not exactly been a beloved industry to folks over the past 20 years. And again, you can look at bank failures at the beginning of last year, you can look back to 2008, there's this repeated history. But if you go back even further, kind of citing that 160 year history, there was a time when banking was a mainstay of the community, right? Truly like a pillar on every main street in the community as that steady, reliable place. And so this is both coming from consumer feedback saying we are looking for that steady, reliable partner, and also we're looking for an empathetic partner. And that is a place that in our history at PNC, we have always shined through as a partner that builds relationships with our customers and with our clients. And so I think brilliantly boring is a way for us to really help acknowledge some of that mistrust in the industry and signal that we have been steady and reliable this whole time. And that's in fact a differentiator in a time where things can be very flashy fast, it's a lot changing in the financial environment overall, and it's actually a differentiator for usKat Vesce (10:04):Creating that bit of fomo too. I bet. For people who may be left and want to come back.Jenn Garbach (10:08):That's right.Kat Vesce (10:10):With such a legacy brand like PNC Bank, how do you balance what to carry into the future and what to refresh?Jenn Garbach (10:16):It's a great question. I think about in any time of transition, and I'll define us in transition as just in growth mode, really being thoughtful about what you keep and what you leave behind. And I mentioned earlier that notion of we have always been a relationship based organization that is something that is so near and dear to our hearts culturally and is a huge part of our success recipe. So we are going to keep and hold that precious and showcase that frankly as part of the brand, what we're going to leave behind and be willing to move on from is growing from a bank that used to be a regional based in Pittsburgh and now operating at national scale. We've got to be ready to leave behind some of the processes, some of the things that we operated that way because it served us back in the day and now we need to try new things. That includes being open to a bold new brand platform, like brilliantly boring. So I think it's a nice signal of the willingness to embrace some new things that we never would've seen on our horizon in the past, but also keep true to the foundational parts of our culture, the ways of working that are really core to our success.Kat Vesce (11:22):We're going to pivot into some rapid fire q and a and celebration of International Women's Day and Women's Month. So focusing on you as a female marketing leader, what has been your biggest challenge?Jenn Garbach (11:37):I was thinking about this question and I think one, as a marketing leader, I think my biggest challenge has been being able to balance the art and science of marketing. And as a woman leader, it's been the ability to constantly my personal and my professional expectations. And those end up bleeding together in these different intersections. And sometimes it ends up in the form of being one of few women at the table. But I do feel very lucky that I have worked for organizations that have really strong advocacy and where I do have other women at the table. But I would say balancing that element of the function that it can sometimes be written off as just creative and there's lots of science and data behind how we go to market. And then also the tension of I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a friend, I have all these other dimensions and constantly recalibrating those expectations and how those play in with my aspirations and my leadership growth journey.Kat Vesce (12:37):Have you cracked the code because as also a mom and a marketer and trying to balance career growth and that trajectory as well as wanting to be there for your kids and wanting to be a good spouse and wanting to be a great friend? I feel the same things you're talking about. Wondering if you have any adviceJenn Garbach (12:58):On that. I don't know that I can claim to have cracked the code, but the thing that has helped me is probably twofold. It's one thinking about you have these different pillars of my life and I named some of them. It's my family, it's my career, it's my friends, it's my health. And it is seldom that all of those pillars are perfectly in place at any given time. And the second part is realizing that it is, I use that phrase recalibration intentionally. It's I need to recalibrate my own expectations of I can't give a hundred percent energy to all of those aspects at all times. And so being really honest with myself of I'm in a surge mode career, which might mean I'm pulling back on family and sometimes that's hard to acknowledge, but having that conversation with my family and rebalancing is really important. So that I think it's keeping at forefront and realizing it's not actually a point of arrival. It's a constant process.Ilyse Liffreing (13:56):Now, a common qualm of women I guess is that they experience imposter syndrome being in any, this is across multiple industries, of course, but in marketing, I feel like it's true. Have you experienced imposter syndrome in your career? And if so, I guess how did you push past it?Jenn Garbach (14:15):Absolutely. That feeling of being called into the principal's office when you get an email or a phone call from a senior leader or that feeling of, oh my gosh, this is the time they're going to figure out, I have no idea what I'm doing. I do think I have made significant growth personally in helping to manage that. And one of the things that's been really helpful is I've worked with a number of different coaches and this idea of what is the talk track that's in my head versus what is the reality of the feedback signals around me? And I actually had a leader that I worked with previously who played this back really directly to me when I was sharing very openly about some of that challenge of feeling like I was underperforming. And he looked at me and said, Jenn, is that story in your head? What feedback are you actually getting? Who has told you that besides yourself? And so that's something, again, try to keep in the forefront of my mind of is that a narrative I'm building for myself and does that match the feedback that I'm getting around me? And if it's disconnected, that might be a signal of it's just up in my head when all the other kind of signals are coming back being like, no,(15:26):You're right in there. Keep Going.Ilyse Liffreing (15:28):And do you think women in marketing face different expectations or leadership challenges than their male counterparts? Kind of a tricky one. How do you navigate those?Jenn Garbach (15:38):Yeah. One of the dynamics that I'm always cognizant of is probably more related to, again, marketing as a function. And I think because marketing is not always well understood broadly at an organization and can get reduced to the idea of it's producing creative, it can play into stereotypes about women and women workers. And so I think it's about, for me at least, it's been about building my leadership brand as a transformational leader and then grounding that in a broad general management skillset and really taking a data-driven approach to marketing to help combat that. There are lots of fun, creative parts of my job, but there's also a science and a math behind it and creating that accountability for myself and how I interact with my business partners to show outcomes. So that is something that I definitely think exists broadly. And I have tried to just balance for myself by thinking about what is that leadership brand for myself and what is my leadership philosophy in terms of leading a marketing organizationKat Vesce (16:39):As more women take on executive roles, what shifts do you hope to see in the way marketing organizations are structured and led?Jenn Garbach (16:47):I don't know if I have a great answer to how I want to see them structured and led. I think I just want to see more women in the leadership roles in the seats. I think I don't want to be reductive to how women lead. I think it's just the idea of the more different brains we have at the table, the broader our thinking, the better our collaboration. And so I think it's about getting more folks into the seats and finding out what that actually looks like.Kat Vesce (17:16):And not even gender. No, but not even gender specific. That could mean anyone. I think just diversity of thought is so important. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Well, Jenn, thank you so much for the time. Thank you so much. We really enjoyed this.Jenn Garbach (17:26):Thank you for having me. This has been fun.Kat Vesce (17:27):Second, great. Wow. Another stellar conversation today. I'm just walking away so inspired. I really loved how PNC Bank and Jenn Garba have reclaimed the word boring, obviously. It's a main point of, it's so fun. It's so fun and a great way to reframe it into meaning something that is steady, something that is reliable. Taking that tradition of what PNC bank stands for and meeting the needs of what their customers told them they're looking for in a modern bank is just so cool. And really what a way to transition the brand.Ilyse Liffreing (18:11):And for 160 year old legacy brand, that's hard to do. It's really balancing what they want to carry into the future and what they want to refresh. And I feel like Jenn was really good at describing exactly thatKat Vesce (18:26):And giving their internal employees like a battle cry or something to you really rally behind, which is so important. Especially as she mentioned, their services are going to, on the national scale, it feels like a campaign that can really service anyone in the country at any age who really, you don't want the flash and pizazz.(18:47):You want to be able to live that way maybe with your finances being in order, but you kind of need the steadiness of that.Ilyse Liffreing (18:54):It should be boring. It really should be boring, be easy and boring. I also liked how she dug into imposter syndrome because I feel like that's very prevalent as women in marketing. And it was very fascinating how she had a boss who was like, I think that's just a story playing out in your head. Nobody's telling you this. It'sKat Vesce (19:14):A good reminder to make sure that you're leveraging true feedback that's coming in and not creating your own story or perception. I think as women, we, and in general, marketers really strive to elevate the bar in everything they do, and I think it's important for everyone to remindIlyse Liffreing (19:38):Themselves, especially when you're battlingKat Vesce (19:41):Perception versus realityIlyse Liffreing (19:43):Handling everything like motherhood on top of,Kat Vesce (19:45):Oh, that was another favorite moment for me, I think. I was like, give me all the tips. Have you cracked the code? Does anyone crack the code?(19:56):Because I mean, whether you're, Nope, truth is nope. But I loved how she said you can't be a hundred percent in any one pillar. And beyond just being a mom, she talked about health, being a good friend, surging in your career, and managing when and how those surges come to fair.(20:13):Just really gave me a lot to think about. I need to do some adjustments in my own life to make sure I'm not trying to do adjustments.Ilyse Liffreing (20:21):Yeah, that's what biggest takeaway. We all need to do adjustments.Kat Vesce (20:25):Yeah. Yep. And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

Beyond Yoga Chief Marketing Officer Katie Babineau joins The Current Podcast on the ground at SXSW in honor of International Women's Day and Women's History Month.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Ilyse Liffreing (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce. And I'm Ilyse Liffreing and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're highlighting exceptional women of advertising at this year's South by Southwest.Kat Vesce (00:18):For this episode, we're thrilled to be joined by Katie Bau, the chief marketing Officer of Beyond Yoga, a brand that's redefining activewear with inclusivity, comfort, and community at its core.Ilyse Liffreing (00:28):That's right, Beyond yoga has been making waves in the industry, not just as a female founded brand, but as one that's rapidly expanding with a devoted customer base and a strong sense of purpose.Kat Vesce (00:39):Katie is approaching her one year anniversary as CMO and she's already led some game changing campaigns like Club Beyond a Full Funnel experiential activation in New York City that brought the brand to life in a whole new way.Ilyse Liffreing (00:51):We'll dive into that campaign and what's next for Beyond Yoga, including its approach to retail, men's expansion and content strategy, as well as Katie's journey as a woman in marketing.Kat Vesce (01:03):Katie, great to have you here. Thanks for joining us.Katie Babineau (01:06):Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here in Austin and great day to be here with you.Kat Vesce (01:12):Yeah. So I know we're approaching your one year anniversary as a CMO. Coming from a background largely in consumer tech, what drew you to this opportunity at Beyond Yoga?Katie Babineau (01:22):Well, I would say first and foremost, I was already a Beyond Yoga fan and customer and just fan of the brand. So when I had an opportunity to sit down with Nancy Green, our CEO I was very eager to learn more and I had come from a background in consumer tech, so I was very open at the time to making a pivot in my career and learning and growing about a new industry and apparel active wear to me was very interesting. I grew up as an athlete. Movement is so important to me as an individual and just love working in, I love the thought of working in an industry where I could pair both my professional and personal passion. And so Nancy and I met about a year ago. We hit it off, we talked a little bit about our philosophies and brand building where the business was going and it was just such a fit and so was really happy to move very quickly to make it happen.Kat Vesce (02:20):I love it. And tell me a bit about that philosophy. What's at the core of your marketing strategy for Beyond Yoga?Katie Babineau (02:27):Well, I've been there for about a year, so we've been building very, very quickly. But I will say that what I inherited is a very strong foundation. So part of the excitement in coming to this brand was looking at it through the lens of upholding the great legacy of a female founded brand that's still female led today. And knowing the fandom that the company and the brand has when I started and just scaling that we've got opportunity to broaden our reach and our audience. We hadn't really done the brand marketing that's needed to crack that right open. And so I was very excited to come in to learn a little bit more about the customer, a little bit more about our brand and our product. And so our opportunity is just to scale that love and that fandom. And so we're doing that now. We spent last year really redefining our brand position and strategy and just cracking that right open this year. As we look ahead,Ilyse Liffreing (03:30):I know you guys are a great example of why we're here and doing these podcast episodes to begin with International Women's Day and Women's Month on that strategy, are there any campaigns or moments that really changed the game for you as a marketer to this point in your first 11 months on the job?Katie Babineau (03:48):My upbringing as a marketer, I would say I've never considered myself a traditional marketer because I came up early in my career really as social was developing. And so I started my career in PR and really fell in love with social because of the way that the landscape was changing. And so my background in social pr, editorial and community building really has allowed me to think about the marketing mix a lot differently. And of course beyond what we need is more of a full funnel approach. So what we have done to build that foundation is think about how we bring community through the funnel, how we work with the community to totally shift our content strategy in paid advertising, how we think about community events as new customer acquisition tools. And so the campaign that comes to mind for us really is the New York City experience that we created last year, last October.(04:47):And the goal really was to show up in our number one market with a really delightful experience where people could take a step back from the chaos of the holidays, quickly approaching and really focus on mindfulness, on movement. We brought in some of the best wellness influencers and creators and instructors in the world and programmed for a week long in this incredible space around Union Square. And what we found was because we were able to think about engaging with community a bit differently through different types of content models and activations that really were rooted in value for the customer, we saw about a 50% new customer acquisition percentage. We sold product, so we generated revenue there. We don't have a brick and mortar store in New York, but it's our largest e-comm market. And so we were able to really drive lower funnel performance, but in a way that was deeply emotive and really connecting with our customers in new and different ways. So that comes to mind for me. Obviously we've got a lot planned this year as we key up to big important brand moments for us, so very excited to do more,Kat Vesce (06:03):But what a strong start out of the gate. I mean that was what, six months in on the jump pulled that off.Katie Babineau (06:07):We moved fast. I like to move fast, I think former athlete and me, I love a good pace. And coming from tech, I really loved tech because of the fast innovation and getting to connect with customers in new and different ways. And so I think coming in, I was so excited about the potential of the brand that we really just got to work. So it was fun.Ilyse Liffreing (06:29):And it seems like you hit your KPIs there, at least it generated a lot of interest in the brand and everything. Would you do it again? Are there any other key learnings from the experience?Katie Babineau (06:40):Absolutely. So the Collabion franchise had existed before I even got to the brand. It was a matter of pouring rocket fuel on it and pointing it in the right direction. So we host about one club beyond event every month. We're now doing one high impact a quarter. So we've got this emphasis on always on community building. We're getting a little bit tighter and more strategic in where we show up and which markets where we have retail locations, where we've got really incredible wholesale partnerships, studios that we're working with. So that's the focus now and today it's about continuing that hyperlocal love that we have and being able to show up in Austin in a really authentic way or Chicago where we are in a really authentic way. We're an LA built brand, but we're growing and scalingKat Vesce (07:37):Any surprising results from the large Union Square activation you want to talk about?Katie Babineau (07:43):The biggest surprise to me, I am all about managing expectations, especially as a new CMO within a brand who hadn't done a ton of brand marketing historically. So coming into this event, I was very clear on, hey, this is top of funnel. We are trying to drive brand lift and conversation and built some brand heat in a market that's really important for us. So here are the KPIs. We're going to look at conversation lift, we're going to look at our engagement percentages, we're going to look at virality of content, and those are the key performance indicators that we really should be focused on here for our investment. And knowing in the back of my mind that I've seen these sort of activations work full funnel in the past, like, okay, well, so secondary we're going to sell products so we'll generate revenue and secondary we will track new customers into the brand. So we will watch that. And I think I was just blown away by the such high percentage of new customer acquisition. It's like that's incredible as a secondary, but being able to level set expectations because big on for a campaign, what is the clear role that we're trying to achieve?Kat Vesce (08:56):So with all of this increase in customer acquisition on this campaign, how are you converting them into that lifelong fan or loyalty?Katie Babineau (09:06):Well, it's really interesting right now we've got such fandom among our loyal customer base. We know that if you know us, you really love us. There's deep love for the brand through high product quality. And our customers love the touch the feel of the product. So once you experience that, we see such high repeat purchase behavior. And so we believe we've got to focus on that new customer acquisition because once we get 'em into the door, it's a great place to be and they don't want to leave. So we're excited to continue to focus on lighting that up and bringing more people into the fold because we know we're going to deliver such a strong product experience, which really that's the retention piece. And so being able to continue to activate them is super important. As we look ahead,Ilyse Liffreing (10:01):What advice would you give to other marketers looking to build this within their brand ethos? The idea of community mindset and purpose that are all powerful drivers of brand retention and loyalty?Katie Babineau (10:15):I think the number one mistake that marketers can make right now is the misconception that brand and growth are separate. They have to work together and they can work together. And I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we believe that these are separate levers, right? So the reason why this campaign was so powerful was because we were able to leverage this full funnel and for our performance needs as well. We used a lot of the content in our lower funnel paid ads from, and we're actually seeing that our creator content is driving a much more efficient cost of acquisition. And so I think we can look at the way that we build the infrastructure a little bit differently and think about brand and growth really coming together to drive high impact.Ilyse Liffreing (11:10):The brand has been around for about 20 years now, which is amazing. It's your first store opened in 2022. How does the brand think about retail moving forward?Katie Babineau (11:21):Retail's a big opportunity for us. Our brand 20 years strong. We started really as a wholesale business, and so we built really strong partnerships across over 1200 different partners. You see us in Nordstrom, you see us in Equinox and studios across the country. And during the pandemic, obviously our.com business really thrived and continues to thrive today. As we look to the future, we believe retail is incredible opportunity for us to connect with customers deeply bring those insights back into our business. And so we are going to be opening many more stores. We are signed and announced on a Greenwich Village store opening early this summer. And then we will also open another store in Marin County this year as well. And so we will expand to nine stores this year for sure. We've definitely got more coming and so it's a really exciting time for us.Kat Vesce (12:22):What do you see as the biggest driver for beyond Yoga's next phase of growth?Katie Babineau (12:27):Product expansion is super exciting for us. So we historically have offered an incredible product in our space dive franchise, which is, and people usually buy it in a set of a legging and a crop tank. And we've been really sort of active wear based, but we've got so much opportunity in product expansion, lifestyle categories. Over the past year we've entered into new product categories like dresses that are fast growing for us, like these trouser pants that are incredible, that are fast growing for us. You look at fleece during the holidays, something we didn't have before, hugely a growth opportunity for us. So as we expand the product lineup, now we're bringing more people into the mix with more full funnel marketing and hopefully creating a bigger, better flywheel.Kat Vesce (13:21):And with that expansion, I know you speak to a lot of different generations, a lot of different types of audiences. How do you cater to that wide range of audiences both in marketing and in product?Katie Babineau (13:34):Yeah, it's really interesting and I love that we've got a multi-gender audience and even we see fast growing men's category for us too. So I think at the core, what we deliver is a really positive outlook on this active wear space. We really focus on bringing a little more levity and fun into the space, which can be a very serious space focused on performance and perfection. And we just want to offer an experience and a product that makes you feel really good and comfortable and really just focus on progress over perfection is sort of what we're all about. And we love that that brings in a diversity of customer base.Ilyse Liffreing (14:12):Amazing. So now let's get into our little rapid fire Q and A we have for you. Great. And these are all female focused questions because of International Women's Day. Tell us what inspired you to pursue a career in marketing and how has your journey been as a woman in this industry?Katie Babineau (14:30):People. I love the interaction with people that you get in marketing. I would also say just the diversity of what you do in marketing. It's so right brain, left brain that I really feel like it gives you an equal balance of creativity and science, which I love.Ilyse Liffreing (14:50):So Katie, how has your journey been as a woman in this industry so far?Katie Babineau (14:53):As a female in our industry, there is more pressure in some industries than others. I'll say my journey, especially coming up in tech and my experience had been being one of the only females in the room. And so I always felt an immense pressure even when I was young in my career, to develop my point of view and perspective and be able to speak up in the room in a way that would cut through. And I think being brought up in tech really trained me to do that in a way that was effective because you got to work so hard to cut through as a female if you're one of the only in the room. And so I felt a great duty to make sure that we were thinking about the female perspective. We were honoring at the time 50% of our customer base and even probably more than that for some of the companies that I was at.(15:50):And I took that on pretty early as something that was really important to me. Now, part of the reason I made this pivot into apparel and active wear was a false thought that I would be moving into an industry that was more female forward. I'm so happy that beyond Yoga's female founded, female led and really a majority of our business is female run, but our industry is still run by men, which I was so surprised to learn. And so I think every industry probably deals with it. And so being able to develop your perspective in the room is very important and being able to find the right partners, advocates and allies to help you build and develop that voice. I have a lot of incredible female and male mentors who have supported me along the way and you have to build your community because there's power in numbers and making sure that you've got the right people in your corner.Ilyse Liffreing (16:49):Amazing. And what would you say are those leadership qualities that really help you strive in the industry as a woman?Katie Babineau (16:58):I'm extremely collaborative and empathetic in my approach. And I think being especially early in my career, getting to bring people into a room and problem solve together and help people see each other's perspective is a bit of a superpower that I've had to develop as a female and early in my career, just finding value in being the connector, the strategic connector in the room I think has been very, very helpful. And sort of a secret weapon, if you will.Kat Vesce (17:31):Similar around that vein, what advice would you give to young women aspiring to make it to the next level in their career, to leadership roles? Ultimately within marketing?Katie Babineau (17:41):Two things I would say don't be afraid to take the risk and build your community because this was a big pivot in my career. For me, it was a big jump from tech industry to three new industries, which apparel, retail, e-commerce. And for me, I was very excited about the opportunity to learn. I think for some that might scary, intimidating, sometimes you really need to take a leap to understand either way, great, that was a great learning and I'm thriving, or that was a great learning and I don't love it and I need to go back. But don't be afraid to take risks. Careers are long hopefully and you can pivot and bob and weave and that's a beautiful thing. And the second is just building your community of people, of hype people, supporters that really can help you in tough times and high five you when things are going well because hopefully it is a long career and you've got some starts and pauses and in between and it makes it more fun to have people in your corner.Kat Vesce (18:49):A former leader of ours used to call that your personal board of directors, soKatie Babineau (18:52):I love that. Yeah, that's great.Kat Vesce (18:53):Do you think marketing today is authentically representing and empowering women?Katie Babineau (18:58):I've seen a lot of progressive change in our industry. I think just and genuine excitement to represent more diverse voices. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I don't think marketing is the problem, I'll just say that, but I do. Just being deeply involved in this community, all of the marketing leaders that I know want to do the right thing, most of them want to do the right thing. And so I think we've got incredible people who are creative leaders who want to think and care really deeply about making sure that in the position that we're in and the storytelling that we get to do every day, that we really represent that the customer well. And so I look at a couple of brands who I love who are really progressive, creative and effective driving business results and people are always going to want to hear about the results.(19:50):I think you look at Elf Cosmetics, they're very progressive, they're brand forward and they've had, I forget how many consecutive quarters, maybe 20 of consecutive revenue growth. They're really changing the game with a heartbeat and they're driving the business incredible. You look at some of the work that NFL is doing, I think they're trying to reach new audiences in a way and knowing they have the deep duty of changing the model in a very old school industry. And so I love that people in our industry are taking risks and especially now this is a risk. So I think we need to continue to take risks and drive change.Kat Vesce (20:35):I love that. Nice to pay it forward. So Katie, this has been so great. Thank you so much for coming and for having time with us. We really appreciate it.Katie Babineau (20:42):Of course. Thank you.Kat Vesce (20:44):A great south by.Katie Babineau (20:45):Yeah.Kat Vesce (20:47):What a powerhouse Ilyse. That was so much fun. Oh my gosh. I know. I love it. She's great. What are some takeaways for you?Ilyse Liffreing (20:53):So I really liked how Club Beyond the full funnel experiential activation in New York City is bringing the brand to life in its own unique way. I think that's a really a great approach for a retail brand that's hoping to grow their footprint.Kat Vesce (21:10):And the notion of once you bring a customer in, they're a fan for life. And that is a huge customer acquisition driver. You don't always think about that in big branding moments. And so I thought that was such a cool story to hear from her. I also just loved Beyond Yoga is 20 years old, it was acquired by Levi's, it's now a Levi's company. They're really focused on that purpose-driven community culture and pushing now into more men's wear. I really just got the sense that they're a brand we're going to see for another 20 years, and I loved hearing her insights around how she's anchoring that in the community that they're building and that they have.Ilyse Liffreing (21:52):Yeah, and it was really interesting to hear her career trajectory and just noticing how she's really relied on people to help her through each stage of her career was fascinating and good to know that there's women out there that are willing to help other women.Kat Vesce (22:11):Yeah, always good. The power of network and then also the fact that you don't have to be in such a linear path in your career. Anyway, all in all, so inspiring. I'm so glad we got the time with Katie. And what a great start to South by Southwest. And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

JPMorgan Chase's David Pinto-Carpenter shares how the banking giant is adapting to changing consumer expectations for financial services, what he thinks is holding back more investment in CTV and why he's comfortable not being a first mover. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian (00:03):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse (00:10):This week we're delighted to talk with David Pinto-Carpenter, the managing director of Media Strategy and Insights at JPMorgan Chase.Damian (00:19):Now over 225 years old and is situated across 100 global markets. JPMorgan Chase is one of the world's most respected financial institutions, and for the second consecutive year, fortune ranked JPMorgan Chase, the fifth most admired company in the world.Ilyse (00:35):After 10 years of agency life, David moved over to JPMC where he's focused on how the company invests in its digital marketing strategy to stay current with the fast moving media environment.Damian (00:48):We start by asking David about how his agency life informed his thinking at JPMorgan ChaseIlyse (00:55):After having spent nearly 10 years on the agency side of media. What inspired you to move over to the brand side and how has that experience kind of shaped your approach at JPMorgan Chase?David (01:10):Right, so well, that really ages me, so appreciate that. But I think I've always been interested in two sides of media. One is how media can influence consumer behavior and also how media can move business. And I think it's a bit hard to get a real accurate answer of how media moves business when you don't see the other side of the business. So agencies are, there's always typically a gap between clients and agency in terms of information sharing, what can be passed back and forth. So I was fortunate enough to, as my last agency assignment work on the Truth Initiative, which is a(01:48):Youth pro non-smoking nonprofit, and they were very open with their information. Essentially we're all working on a common cause. The cause is maybe the only thing in marketing where you actually save lives and therefore our information is your information, whatever can make us better, we'll do it. My clients gave us access to their web analytic platform. We had a full understanding of their tagging infrastructure and which actions were scored higher and lower and where we were trying to drive people and how people were traversing across the funnel as well as their data management platform. How do we create audiences? How do we collect data on an ad impression? How do we ultimately transform that into groups that we can use to target better? And for Truth, they're trying to reach 13 to 24 year olds with the message they don't want to hear. The hardest thing to get in action, and their action is to sign people up for advocacy.(02:40):I was able to see front and back everything that's happening and be able to use that to build tools and capabilities that allow us to model forward outcomes. We're basically able to say, okay, now we can not only project how much the outcome will cost, but also we can anticipate how people will respond to the ads as we put them out into market, and that included creative, that included everything else. We were able to reduce the amount of working media they needed to achieve their goal by 20%. We just said, take that back. You don't need it. You're a nonprofit, you don't need to spend it anymore. That was my last gig. And then at the time, my current manager, Tracy- Ann Lim, chief media officer at JPMC started to contact me asking if I was interested in coming to JPMC. So first questions I asked were, what kind of systems do you have?(03:24):What kind of access to information will I have? And then what is the objective? What does a team look like? So the team was very nascent, but the technology and the systems were very similar to truth, actually. It was a no-brainer getting access to or having the potential to access some portion of JPMC data to make marketing more effective and see how it works. And then a nonprofit, let's say JPMC's, I dunno, a hundred times the size of the nonprofit, maybe that's some job security it'll take me, took one year to make something happen on the nonprofit. Maybe we'll take a hundred on JPMC, but it's a fun thing to do. I'm very grateful for that experience. I worked across a lot of different categories, a lot of different businesses, but I don't think we would've been as successful at moving things as fast as JPMC if Tracy and I didn't come from an agency background. There's nothing that can really prepare you for working at JPMC.Damian (04:18):One question I have about that. When you worked on the Truth Initiative project, it sounds like you would have a very clear mission statement. How do you think about that mission statement in your current context, in your current role?David (04:33):So we have, depending on how you count them, between 30 and 40 business units across JPMC globally, and all of them have some desire or ambition to market something out into the world. So I think we treat it as a series of levels. We have corporate level marketing and that's, you know, what does JPMC stand for? What is it doing in the communities? What information do we need to get out? So people do any number of things, either decide to open a banking relationship with us, decide to trust us with their investments or even come to work for our company. We compete on a lot of different fronts. So that's the top. And then from there, we cascade down to business groups, business units. But I think our purpose as recently defined by Carla is to make dreams happen for everyone everywhere, every day. And I think that's the culture that we try to carry through in the marketing decisions that we make. Yes, of course we want to open more accounts, but also we want to do right by our customers and make people understand that not only is this a great place to work, it's a great place to bank, but there's a lot of good that's happening from business that originates from JPMorgan Chase.Ilyse (05:42):It can be a tricky sector to markets because it's so heavily regulated - finance that is. I'm curious what your media strategy looks like. What kind of customer insights can you rely on to inform your overall media plan?David (05:59):Yeah, so we do a lot of design target work. We do a lot of segmentation, but I think specific to media, we treat our media strategy a lot more like financial planning and analysis in that we are – it's a couple things: One, if we don't make more than we spend, we're a bank, we're probably not going to get that money again. So we treat an initial investment as very sacrosanct. We need to be very disciplined in the way that we spend it and use the best information we have to make sure it'll be a success. And then we try to get better over time. So we work with our finance partners in every business to understand what are the financials of each product, how are they changing, what do we know about the interaction effect of the channels that we market and the other channels that we use for marketing?(06:44):And how do we triangulate and forecast forward what we think that benefit will be and then prove that out over time through testing. In that respect, the notion of a campaign is important in the sense that it's an organizing construct to get work done and there's a message that runs and we create a message and it runs in the advertising space, and we're trying to get better at quantifying that impact. What does good creative look like and what does bad creative look like and what does that do for the business? But for us, we buy, for lack of a better word, blank space for another message to be put in. And so we've built a lot of muscle memory over time on what works in one business, how do we adapt it to another? Our business is similarly situated so that we can believe that this will be a predictable outcome for the foreseeable future. How long do we think this outcome will last? And then the proof is in, do we hit our numbers at the end of the year?Damian (07:33):You've touched on this a little bit Ilyse, but it's a sector, the finance sector is a conquesting sector in some ways, and on the face of it, there may seem to be little differentiation between one big bank and another. But I'm curious from your point of view in terms of branding, how do you think about JPMC setting itself apart? What are its differentiating points and how does that manifest itself in how you think about your work?David (07:58):Right. Yeah. So it's very important for me to keep one foot out of JPMC and not think like a marketer but think like a human being. And in that respect, if you open a checking account, you open a savings account, generally speaking, those are going to be pretty similar products from bank to bank. But I think where the real race is right now in financial services is experiences. So how do we deliver value to you by being an account holder of one of our products? And how is that different from the way that you are treated or the way that you might feel or the things that you can experience or unlock through other products? We have a pretty robust travel platform and dining platform. We invest heavily in bonus accelerators for travel and dining and other spaces. And we're starting to open progressively larger lounge business in addition to our branches. So we treat all of those as places where we can make an impression on people to give them an experience that is, for lack of a better word, white glove.David (09:00):That they couldn't get anywhere else and trying to make the differentiation on those experiences. And I think that's where the biggest battleground is.Damian (09:07):It's so interesting to me to hear you talk like that and how a company like JPMorgan Chase is actually thinking about lifestyle and experiences and in lots of ways you are marketing a membership or a membership of a kind of elite club, if you like. Is that fair?David (09:24):I think for some of our products, we compete in affluent and there's a lot of benefits that we give to affluent account holders that are meant to give unforgettable experiences, experiences they can't get anywhere else. But I think even our core experience in branches, we want that to be a differentiating factor too. So we invest totally separate from marketing, but we invest a lot in making sure that our bankers have the right information about the customers that they're serving at their fingertips so that when someone comes in and has a question that they know the entire history of that person's relationship. And then in call centers as well, investing a lot in applied AI and ML to do the same thing. So if you call, we want to understand exactly who you are and help get you the help that you need as quickly as possible. We treat all of our products across the spectrum as trying to be differentiated in that way.Damian (10:14):So maybe it's a better way to talk about it as you think about the different customer experiences at different levels.David (10:19):Right, yes.Ilyse (10:21):Yeah, I would say that's definitely like a audience first approach to marketing. What about when it comes to buying ad space and media space?David (10:31):Yea, so without going into too much detail about the secret sauce, I'll say that we obviously have relationships with a quarter of the United States in terms of our customers and our households that bank with us and millions of small businesses as well. There's a lot of information that's proprietary to us that we are able to leverage and we take the protection of that data very seriously. There's a lot that we can't use and we can't access and we have to secure approval to get it. But I think generally speaking, our products are aligned to a series of firm-wide strategic segments, and we track growth against those segments. That's at the highest level and as you go progressively lower the matrix of the audiences that we might use or the audience we might prioritize becomes more matrixed and complex. But we have an audience centric approach to targeting. We are getting better in our capabilities to orchestrate journeys. So I think our ambition or our desire is to be as close to one and personal as we can be given the restrictions that we have in data access.Ilyse (11:36):So your digital marketing strategy definitely signals a future that is focused on measurable outcomes. I'm curious about how you're using channels like CTV and digital out of home to connect that brand awareness with that performance level.David (11:54):Sure. So I would say our strategy has been focused on measurable outcomes since day one. As I mentioned, we wouldn't get money if we weren't able to prove that it was working. But we also think about media in a full funnel context. So awareness drives consideration, drives acquisition, and they're all tied to a person and that person is interacting with multiple messages every day. So I think in the past, and what we're trying to progress away from is the campaign specific mindset. Every product works in a silo, they're all targeting a general audience. And once a product launches on awareness channels, we're no longer on awareness channels. So we've spent a lot of time proving that interaction effect between awareness and consideration acquisition so that we can say what's happening up here is benefiting up here, but we also know the unique benefit of what's happening at the top.(12:44):But I think the two biggest things holding CTV back at the moment for us, I can't speak for the rest of the advertising industry, and it seems like they're spending a lot, is price and brand safety. So on the price front on average CTV ads among publishers, I will not name are two to three times higher than broad reach cable or some mix that's more efficient in nature. Brand safety is another in that you can buy an unlimited amount of CTV that's running in a lot of different fragmented places who you choose to buy it direct. You can choose to buy it through a hardware provider or you can choose to buy it in some app aggregator and all of those will air to some household in some content somewhere. And you know what the household is. So where we've been pushing a lot on brand safety is can we get, it doesn't have to be similar to TV per se, but we definitely need to know what programming we're running against.(13:38):Especially if we're talking about long tail connected TV programming. Most of it's not brand safe, but there's a lot of connected TV content that's tied to children's programming. And if it's going to a household and we can't exactly confirm where that ad brand, who knows, we're running against 12 year olds this entire time. So we're pushing for more information back through brand safety vendors and publishers to validate exactly where that's running in the same context or in a similar context to TV logs. I think once that happens, we invest in the same way that we would anywhere else.Ilyse (14:16):Do you think it'll get there sooner rather than later? David (14:19):Or is the data incoming?David (14:22):I think so. Brand safety technology really just as a matter of getting the information from the hardware or the app provider itself.Damian (14:32):As we look back 2024, we wrote a lot about how the upfronts were changing and there's been a lot of press about upfronts changing. What's your perspective on the upfronts? You talked a little bit about the differences between linear and CTV. Has that impacted the way you think about your products across linear and streaming? How has the upfronts changed things, speeded things up, slowed things down.David (14:55):So the upfronts are always, I don't know if I'm, was it masochist or sadist, but the upfronts are usually my favorite part of the year because you can get a lot of decisions done at the same time and you can look much longer term than sometimes even my agency days clients or in our cases the business are thinking themselves. So it forces a lot of conversations on what is the outlook of the business, what is the outlook of the products you're prioritizing? And then on the other side, how have macro changes impacted what we think will work and at what price? So I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the last four years more has changed in consumption patterns than the previous 10 before that. I think it has had a pretty massive impact on the marketplace in that anyone who's watched cable TV recently will watch endless reruns on cable tv. And so it's really just a matter of capturing passive intent. There's not all that much original content that is being developed specifically for TV anymore.(15:59):So it's a bit more like, I don't know, run of network or video advertising 10 years ago. So we have to take those two things and counterbalance if we know that the bulk of live TV is happening with hyper consumers who are watching it a lot and have a different footprint than those who are watching streaming. But we also know that streaming, ad supported streaming is a very small portion of the total streaming universe. How do we munge those two things together to find the right opportunity? And how do we validate that change is ultimately resulting in a response among the people that are most likely to respond for a particular product or service advertising. This year we undertook a big evaluation. Essentially it felt like the inflection point to say, we can't really just go to market in the same way that we always have in the upfront because there's not as much inventory as we want to buy in the upfront, but it's a good opportunity for us to think about what is a holistic video investment long-term and do we make drastic changes this year or do we make drastic next year?(16:58):So we essentially undertook a process where we built versions of that strategic segmentation that I mentioned where all of our products are aligned against, and then flip that same segmentation around to understand how networks and digital video packages and connected TV packages all reach these different segments. And some of that's a slew of tools, not any one tool has that whole picture. So we use different platforms for different parts of the picture and then started to reorient the entire investment around how do we best reach the people that are most relevant to this product in a way that sort of normalizes the whole investment for the firm.Ilyse (17:43):So this was the first year that you actually looked at all the puzzle pieces, I guess, and put those together. Was there something that inspired that in the market specifically or just the ongoing change throughout the past couple of years?David (18:00):Yeah, I think that what really prompted that change was the options that we have to procure media in different ways. And so now we have different options to say, what is the best method of buying? Is this something that we need to buy as a commodity at the best price? Is this something that we need to buy that's highly targeted to a household, but we need to control the programming? Is this something that we within a reasonable bounds know what the content categories are and we think that there's opportunity in the response of people watching in these content categories in connected tv, or is there on the opposite side a commodity for video where we say if everything's going to run in this standard topic allow list and we're trying to get tonnage but control for the way an ad is served. And that flexibility didn't exist to the extent that it exists now, I think our flexibility to choose those different routes is also relatively recent development through our in housing efforts. And also we have great very flexible agency partnerships to say, we're going to look at this together. We'll figure out the best combination of entities or methods or pipelines to get access to the inventory that we want at the right price. And sometimes that is a collaboration and sometimes it's something we do ourselves. So that flexibility gave us a lot more options to think critically about where and how we secure video upfront inventory.Ilyse (19:27):Traditionally, banks are perceived as brick and mortar establishments, but these days they're all online and digital. How does that change the way you go to market?David (19:39):Right. So each business has some blend of digital and branch originated business. So we think about business bank. If you're a small business owner, you're more likely than not going to go into a branch to make sure you know who the person is that's handling your money for your business. Whereas credit cards are much more digital first. So that blend of who opens, which accounts, where is usually a pretty good predictor of what channels will work well to solicit a response. We have a very big app and website. We're also one of the most conservative cybersecurity companies on earth. So there's a lot of capabilities that marketers like that we will never have or capabilities that we have to work a lot harder to evaluate whether or not it's worth it for us. We treat that as a good challenge.(20:35):If you can't explain exactly where information is going and why it's being used, you probably shouldn't use it in the first place. I don't think that's unique to finance. So we are able use that to our advantage too. So if we're not a first mover and everyone is working out the kinks on our behalf and then we say, okay, we're comfortable with this because we're seeing how the landscape is utilizing this new tool or this new technology or some other part of the technology ecosystem makes it so that we don't have to use it in the way that it is built to be used, but we can customize it and this company will work with us. That helps us to be effective when we need to be effective. And we also don't need to be a first mover because a very small change in improvement for us might be the revenue of an entire company in another place.(21:25):So it's worth it to be methodical and very focused on getting it right, getting things secure, using our digital capabilities in a responsible way. But then I think that the most important thing for us is that our branches, we view our branches as a superpower. It's a place where the vast majority of our customers form an opinion of us. If you go into a branch and don't have a good experience, then you also won't have a good opinion of us. And the marketing effectiveness is partially on what ads you put into market. It's partially based on the impression people have of you, and it's partially based on the opinion that people state of you based on their experience. And so we are always looking for ways to learn from what is working in the branches to improve our marketing capabilities. So I don't think that there's necessarily a trade off. It's trying to find the way that they both benefit each other and then what mix of channels ultimately encourages the type of interest that will grow the business in the unique way the business is configured.Damian (22:23):Great. Thank you so much for these really thoughtful insights.Ilyse (22:26):Yes, thank you so much.Damian (22:33):And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse (22:38):The Current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.David (22:44):And remember, we treat our media strategy a lot more like financial planning and analysis. We need to be very disciplined in the way that we spend it and use the best information we have to make sure it'll be a success. Damian (22:54):I'm Damian. Ilyse (22:55):And I'm Ilyse.Damian (22:56):And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, The Current Report.

Family-owned grocery chain Meijer is using its Midwest roots to stand out in the retail media crowd, according to Derek Steele, the company's VP for marketing. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing,Damian (00:03):And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse (00:10):This week we're delighted to talk with Derek Steele, group VP for marketing and customer strategy for Meijer.Damian (00:17):Meijer is a supermarket chain that's just celebrated its 90th birthday. Founded in 1934 in Michigan. It started life as a grocery store.Ilyse (00:26):It's still a family owned business, but now has grown to 500 locations across six states and employs more than 70,000 people.Damian (00:35):Now, Derek has been with Meijer for more than 16 years. He spearheaded the company's shift into e-commerce, his customer loyalty program, and more recently the launch of its retail media network. So that's where we'll start. Dar, you've been with Meijer for 16 years and so it's fair to say you've sort of grown up with the company. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey?Derek (00:58):Yeah, absolutely. So I've grown my entire retail career within the company, really the first and only retailer I've worked for. Started off in the merchandising side of the organization. My first real job was a buyer in our consumables area, so really learned the nitty gritty of how do you manage vendor relationships, how do you understand the customer, the trends and the products that they're interested, and then how do you craft a category strategy around that? I've had a chance to work in a variety of different areas within our fresh produce, fresh foods business, understanding the supply chain, and it's just fascinating to understand where that product comes from. And then prior to getting over to the marketing side, I let our dairy and frozen department, which my kids still think is the best job I ever had, got eat a tremendous amount of ice cream, frozen pizza and still recovering from some of the effects of thatIlyse (01:42):Man. Sounds good.Derek (01:43):Oh god.Damian (01:44):More recently you have been looking at customer loyalty programs and obviously e-commerce is a huge growth category right now. Can you talk about that shift and how you spearheaded the move for the supermarket chain into that category?Derek (02:00):Yeah, absolutely. At Meijer, we'd been focused on e-commerce and looking at it for quite some time and really the impetus for change with us, a lot of consolidation happening within some of the third party marketplace business. We had some partnerships in that space and really decided that given where the customer was going, it was going to be important for us to really own that relationship with the customer. That's extremely important to us. And so while there's great partners that we continue to partner with through our meyer.com and our Meijer app business, we really wanted to manage that relationship one-on-one with the customer. So we started that effort in 2019. We launched our e-commerce platform in the fall of 2019 with the plans to really steady and slow growth. And then of course March, 2020 hits and it was really all about, Hey, how do we scale? It went from this interesting business idea to absolutely critical in the lives of our customers in the Midwest.Ilyse (02:53):Yeah, that was good timing forDerek (02:55):Them. Yeah, good timing. There's probably three or four months that I could choose to forget, but really fascinating to see how the entire organization rallied around that and the speed which we were able to develop that business and grow that business for our customers.Damian (03:08):And then of course, you had all this incredible customer data at your fingertips. At what point was it inevitable that you launched a retail media network?Derek (03:17):Yeah, I mean you talked about it, right? We started in loyalty, moved into e-commerce, right? And I think these three things together along with retail media, all three are foundational from a retail business standpoint. I think really it started with an impetus from our suppliers, the brands that we work with saying, Hey, as we're doing marketing programs with you in that more traditional shopper marketing way, we want to understand more. We understand who the customer is, who the audience is, how that's performing. And so as you start to ask those questions, it really naturally leads you into that space of retail media. And so really our decision to enter it was, Hey, we need to be right for our brand partners and we need to be right for our customers. And really felt like those things were coming together and the opportunity to launch a retail media network was there.Ilyse (04:02):Now there's multiple ways brands can work with retail media networks. Can you give us some examples of how your clients are leveraging data on sites and offsite?Derek (04:13):Yeah, absolutely. So at Meijer, we really believe in the relationships that we form with our CPG partners. I think if you were to ask within the industry meier's ability to work and tailor those programs, it's really the key on what we're built with. And so as we launched a retail media network, that's really how we think about, it's really an extension of that relationship with the brands. So we partner closely with our merchants to understand what is key, what are the categories, what are the trends that are happening and driving. And then we really work alongside with the marketing sides of those organizations, with the brands, with the agencies to craft, okay, how do we come to market and how do we specifically drive that strategy in Meijer with our Midwestern customer and our audience? So really focused on that relationship building that kind of one-on-one, and the ability to be nimble and responsive to the community as they have opportunities that they want to tackle at Meijer.Ilyse (05:03):Yeah. How does that really fill that regional need, as you say?Derek (05:07):Yeah, certainly as the retail media space has become filled with a number of retailers, and so we get this question all the time, clearly there are players out there where if you're looking for size and reach, there are bigger players in the market, but when we look at our territory within the six states we compete, we really dominate within those areas. We understand that customer. I think our data would show that over 50% of the households within our trade area are shopping at a me store. And so we would argue that you really can't reach that audience, that unique audience that we have if you're not engaging with me. And so we feel like we play a very important role within those states and those territories that we serve.Damian (05:47):One of the things that's very interesting about the space is the talking points around what is retail data and what is retail media. Could you unpack that a little bit, that distinction for us a little bit? How do you think about those two things?Derek (06:02):And we might use slightly different language than you do Damien, but I think the world of marketing and retail has been a part of our strategy For a while, we would call it shopper marketing. So the activations that we're doing in our stores, the opportunity to provide some branding in some of those locations, we would call that shopper marketing. It's really top of the funnel impression based, but still at that point of purchase. But just by its very nature, we've not always had the ability to target and measure that, so we would distinct that as shopper marketing. When we think about retail media, we really think about the ability to define an audience, target content to that audience, and then measure the performance all the way through the point of sale, whether they're reacting on our website through our mobile app or if they're completing that transaction in the store, that measurability that ability to get to closed loop reporting. That's what we would define as retail media at Meier.Damian (06:51):In terms of the different channels off site that you use, where does it show up?Derek (06:56):So today we have the ability to do display ad. We do closed loop tv. We're working through YouTube, a number of channels along with the different social media channels, meta, Pinterest, and a handful of others that we're working on lighting up as we speak.Damian (07:11):So it's like a very omnichannel experience.Derek (07:14):Yeah, we understand we need to be where the customer and the audience is at, and so as that continues to evolve and change, we know we're going to need to continue to evolve and change along with that.Damian (07:23):Now, you recently announced a new closed loop measurement capability. Could you talk a little bit about this? What capability does that bring and how does that help drive better outcomesDerek (07:32):For your partners? Yeah, absolutely. As we partner with brands, one of the things we heard front and center as we began this project was that measurement is absolutely key. And I think there's a number of retail media brands that have started just from an impression basis and an audience basis and then bring the closed loop along. After that, we really focused on at launch, we wanted to have that capability, and so our focus from a technology standpoint is however that customer and audience chooses to complete that transaction. We want to be able to measure that. That's not easy. We've gone through some of the challenges and growing pains along with that, but at Meier, regardless of what channel that customer chooses to complete that transaction, and frankly many of our customers complete that transaction across multiple channels, we want to be able to measure that. And so that's what we've built out from a closed loop reporting standpoint. So when you put that message in front of an audience at Meier, whether it's online or in store, no matter how they choose to transact, we're going to be able to measure that and provide that reporting and insights back to our brand partners.Ilyse (08:30):What would you describe as some of the challenges there that you brought up?Derek (08:35):From a technology standpoint? At any retailer, when you look at all the different channels, a customer can complete a transaction. Historically, those have been very different streams of data. Aligning those streams of data along with all the customer information that we have to really measure that end to end a lot of different parts of the organization, a lot of different pieces of technology to bring together along with a number of partners in the industry who help us make that all work. So that's probably been the biggest challenge is coordinating all the different technology pieces to make that happen.Ilyse (09:03):Yeah, I think the industry overall, the retail media industry and retail media networks are all coming together to try to figure that out.Damian (09:13):I wanted to ask one more question here just in terms of the opportunity of the retail media network. Has it allowed you to expand as it were, brand partnerships?Derek (09:22):Yeah, I think it's allowed us to enter different conversations with brands than we've been able to enter before. And so there's messages, there's channels, there's tactics, there's places in the customer journey before they make a purchase that with a traditional shopper marketing funnel, we shouldn't have a good way to enter and be part of that conversation. And now whether it's on our own channels, within our app, on our website, or using our audience information to reach those customers wherever they're at, we're able to have a richer conversation about a more full funnel approach to how we can bring those brands to market at Meier.Ilyse (09:53):And one thing we talk a lot about is how that has increasingly become omnichannel and an omnichannel environment where all these customers are spending their time. Can you talk a little bit about that and what channels you're excited about?Derek (10:08):Yeah, it's interesting. When we look back at our data around our customers, more than 50% of them and an increasing percentage of them, regardless of where they complete their transaction, are coming to us to search for a product within seven days of making that purchase. And so we're seeing that behavior and it's no longer this distinction to the customer between, am I having a digital interaction with Meyer or am I having an in-store interaction? From a customer behavior standpoint, those two things are blending together. And so it's no longer is this an e-commerce transaction or is this a in-store customer? It's a Meier customer, and so we need to meet that customer wherever they're choosing to gather their information and then make that purchase.Damian (10:50):Do you see the same customer shop online and then come into the store? Are you able to kind of measure that and observe that?Derek (10:58):Yeah, we see that We have our digital loyalists who they've made that transition fully, and so that's part of their life now, that's how they interact with us. But I would say most of our customers we're seeing engage with us in a digital and in a physical store. I'll take my own family, for example. We are heavy digital shoppers at me, but there are those instances in those times where it's either more convenient or I want that exploration, I don't know what I want, and I'll leverage the store in that regard. And so week to week, day to day, based on the what's going on in the kids' activities and the family life, we'll see that switch. And I think that's true for our customers as well.Ilyse (11:31):Are you doing anything to personalize that experience and bridge the gap between that digital experience and in-store experience?Derek (11:38):Yeah, I mean, personalization has been really a part of how we've thought of going to market even before we started media. We think about personalization in every one of our retail channels, whether it's organic search, whether it's the mailers we're sending into your home and offers, whether it's servicing promotional content. We have thousands of promotions that are running every week, but what's the most important thing for our customer, that individual customer? That's part of what we're doing. We're looking at how do we allow brands to interact in some of those personalized experiences, both through audience targeting, but also then in that moment where I'm serving up promotional content or items that you've purchased before. Well, how do I let a brand influence where in that experience, that item may show up, never inserting an item that a customer hasn't purchased because we want to honor that personalization for our customer. But if there are stories or items or times where it's more important to a brand to get that purchase, we're trying to find ways to enable them to be able to do that.Ilyse (12:34):Very interesting. Is there an example that you can share?Derek (12:37):Yeah, so I mean one of our most used features by our customers is our buy again, right? I mean, it's a very quick way to make a cart. And when we're building carts in the grocery e-commerce world, there's a lot of items to get in there. Historically, we've used sort of a frequency recency model for what shows up in that, and we're starting to allow sponsored products within that. So allow brands to invest to kind of boost up where in that carousel, their product may show up.Ilyse (13:01):Very cool. Well, I would love to dig into your background a little bit because it's fascinating. So you were a flight controls engineer for the space shuttle program, and obviously now you're in marketing. Could you talk about that transition and then I guess how that background has really helped you in your marketing career?Derek (13:22):Yeah, absolutely. It's a question I get all the time in getting tired of the conversation about retail media not being rocket science, because obviously it takes one, but no, I mean, first five years of my career, that's what I did. So I had the opportunity to work on the space shuttle program, absolutely a dream come true. In fact, in fourth grade for Halloween, I dressed up like an aerospace engineerIlyse (13:44):AndDerek (13:44):No one knew what I was, right? I was in tears. It was actually the last time I ever dressed up for Halloween. But really enjoyed the technology side of that, enjoyed the adventure and the intrigue of it, but also found I had a passion for leading and a passion for working in a competitive industry. There was only one space shuttle, so there's no other one to compete with. So made a career change. 16 years ago, retail wasn't on my radar screen. I continue to run into people that have stories like mine where I never thought I would get into retail, but what attracted to me about it was just the pace of change and innovation that happens in this industry, probably one of the most dynamic industries that there is out there. And the opportunity to lead at a pretty large level relatively early on in your career.(14:27):So made the transition over 16 years ago, grew up through the merchandising and buying side of the organization, and then really found a home within the marketing organization. Again, I talked about I'm still a nerd at heart, and so I love the combination of the customer insight, the technology, the brand and their interest. And so being able to sit in this unique space of understanding and being able to grasp that technology piece, being trained from a merchandising standpoint on how to understand customer need, I found a nice niche in here. And I like to say at the end of the day, engineering is just structured problem solving. You break down a problem into its components, you solve the components, you solve the problem. And turns out that's applicable in a lot of different places.Ilyse (15:08):Those seem to be quite a few engineers turn marketers. And that does seem like to be the thorough line there as well. Engineers are moreDerek (15:15):Creative people than they give us credit for.Damian (15:18):Yeah, absolutely. And so the sort of through line is data here then that helps shape strategy, of course, increasingly so in the world that we're in now.Derek (15:27):Yeah, I think being able to pull insights out of information, that's what I always preach my team, is that the best data set doesn't always win the best insight or the best story that you can tell from that data wins. And so I think marketing is a great place where you get to combine those two things. And at the end of the day, that's what we're doing. We're telling stories that are based on facts that are compelling to our customers.Damian (15:48):Just to go back to the space shuttle program, what was the toughest challenge you faced when you had thatDerek (15:52):Job? So I joined the space shuttle program right after the Columbia accident, so if you remember that.Ilyse (15:58):Yeah.Derek (15:59):So our first year and a half was all about recertification, getting ready to fly again. And I dunno if I've ever put this story on tape before, but the first flight after Columbia, I worked in the room above the mission control center and we were the ones watching all the data and see what would happened. And the first flight afterwards, they saw something float away from the space shuttle. And so they said to everyone, they said, Hey, go scrub all your systems, see if we can figure out what that was. Did something break? Is this what's going on? So it's a mad scramble to go through the data, and I found seven little pieces of data that I could not explain everything else. I could explain these seven pieces of data. I could not explainIlyse (16:34):Aliens.Derek (16:34):And so I sent this back to the mission control center, young engineer, proud, maybe I just saved the astronauts, and I received an email back, congratulations. You identified the seven times they flushed the toilet over the last two days. We got this one covered.Ilyse (16:47):That's hilarious.Derek (16:48):That's good. I likeDamian (16:49):That. Oh my god. Wow.Ilyse (16:52):That's so wonderful.Damian (16:53):One question we like to ask is are there any sort of innovations in the ad tech space that are kind of on your radar, can still use an aeronautical metro on myDerek (17:02):Radar?Damian (17:03):Yeah.Derek (17:03):I mean, are there innovations? Absolutely. I mean, I think there's a tremendous amount of innovation. I think what we're focused on right now is what are our customers, and by that I mean the brands and agencies that we're working with, what are they looking for? And we're really focused on how do we take the friction out of that opportunity, that experience of working with Meyer. And so a lot of focus on the different self-serve platforms that are out there. How do we engage with that to drive a richer, more friction-free experience for our customers?Damian (17:31):I like my shopping to be friction free.Derek (17:34):Absolutely.Damian (17:35):Yeah. Well, Derek, thanks so much for joining us on the current podcast. Absolutely. Thank you. And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse (17:52):The current podcast theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Derek (17:58):And remember, the best data set doesn't always win the best insight or the best story that you can tell from that data wins. And so I think marketing is a great place where you get to combine those two things. And at the end of the day, that's what we're doing. We're telling stories that are based on facts that are compelling to our customers. I'mDamian (18:15):Damian, and I'm Ilyse. And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report.

The food-delivery company's VP of brand discusses the business' 20-year history and how it stays front of mind for consumers.Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: I'm Damian FowlerIlyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Marnie Kain, the VP of Brand and Creative at Grubhub.Damian: Grubhub recently celebrated its 20th anniversary. It was founded in Chicago in 2004, and it was the pioneer food delivery service. A forerunner to the booming e commerce delivery sector.Ilyse: Two decades on, the business has scaled. It now has a 375, 000 restaurant partners in over 4, 000 U.S. cities.Damian: Marnie joined the company in September 2023, just as it was planning its big birthday celebrations.Ilyse: So Marnie, can you tell us about the challenge of marketing this brand, having joined just Grubhub in 2023?Marnie: Well it was a very easy decision to make to go to Grubhub. I had spent a number of decades on the [00:01:00] agency side, working with clients across many different categories. And one thing I learned is that it's really fun to work in a category that you enjoy. And who doesn't love food and the delight and joy of delivery that it brings?So I was able to really unmask my experience across many sectors like CPG, mass retail, QSR, casual dining, health and wellness. travel and so on and really bring that expertise and experience to the table to solve some really interesting challenges in a very crowded landscape.Ilyse: Now, it is interesting with your background because, like you said, you've been across agencies for a long time. What would you say is the differentiating factor being brand side now?Marnie: Well, being brand side you definitely have greater visibility to the complexities of the business. I think you [00:02:00] believe you understand that when you're on the agency side, but what you have visibility to is far less than what really goes on. And it is challenging to sell things in across the organization because there are many stakeholders, cross functional decision making and priorities that aren't necessarily brand marketing.Ilyse: Now let's talk about Grubhub's marketing strategy a little. So the delivery service sector has become quite competitive as you know. As all consumers know, we have lots of choices. How do you think about differentiating Grubhub in this space and maintaining that market shareMarnie: We really look at it from a consumer standpoint and what's meaningful and relevant to our customers. What conveniences do they need? What are their pain points? What categories do they need delivery from? So we're [00:03:00] expanding even beyond restaurants into categories like grocery, convenience, and others that will soon come. So it's really about being in service of the customer and their needs.As far as what is differentiating about us, it's really about tapping into and building upon what they see as valuable. So one of the biggest ways that we're offering value, outside of just everyday value that are always available on the app, are through partnerships like the one we have with Amazon.Ilyse: Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the partnership. Andhow Grubhub really works with brands and what platforms it chooses when it comes to those types of partnerships.Marnie: Well, Amazon is a great example of really understanding what's important to consumers. Obviously, Amazon delivers pretty much everything, but what they [00:04:00] don't deliver is food from restaurants. And so the synergy between the two delivery giants is quite clear. The opportunity was to really bring added value to Amazon Prime customers, and that is what we've done. So our Amazon partnership initially launched before my time in 22 and, what you would get as an Amazon Prime member is the ability to get one year of Grubhub Plus for free, which is our membership service that essentially provides $0 delivery fees which is our premier benefit, additionally $5 cash back on pickup orders, priority delivery and other exclusive offers.This past May, we built on the initial success and really deepened that partnership to bring added value to consumers and greater sales for our restaurant partners by making the benefits ongoing to [00:05:00] Amazon subscribers. So Prime members get - as long as they're a Prime member - $0 delivery on Grubhub. Additionally, what's really unique, is that you can shop on Amazon for Grubhub. There's actually a tile on the grocery tab that you can go through and actually link your Grubhub account, get your $0 delivery benefit and start shopping, straight within the Amazon app.Ilyse: I really didn't know that.Damian: That must really help you, in terms of partnerships like that must be a big help in terms of scaling.Marnie: It really is. We started, as early days for Grubhub, we were really looking to help restaurants scale. 20 years ago, restaurants delivered their menus by putting them in mailboxes in the neighborhood and also keeping them available outside of their restaurants. And that was their scale. Now they have access to so many consumers [00:06:00] through Grubhub which originally was a tech powered menu aggregator and ultimately a tech powered order system for restaurants.Today, it's really a three-sided business model where we service restaurants and continue to help them scale, but we also support a very large driver community that makes a living working for Grubhub as well as bringing new conveniences every day to consumers.Damian: Let's talk about that a little bit. You mentioned that how it started and you joined the company just as Grubhub was probably thinking about its 20th birthday in 2024. what was the sort of nature of the thinking around how it was going to mark this important anniversary?Marnie: I think the important thing when you consider that it was our 20th anniversary, is that, it's really all about what we can do for our customers. They are perhaps [00:07:00] interested in the fact that we've been around for a long time - we're the O. G in the category and that means we stand by our product and our reliable brand - but mostly they just want what they want, when they want it. They want value. They want to know that we have the restaurants that they're interested in. So the first thing we did was offer literally 20,000 offers to our customers, free items that they could get from restaurants like McDonald's, Popeye's, Pizza Hut, Wendy's, Panera, Taco Bell. We also offered 20 percent off several other restaurants and convenience stores, and we celebrated this under the banner of 20 years of deals because that's really what Matters to consumers and the value is something that we continue to pursue through partnerships like Amazon, where they're saving over three hundred dollars annually on [00:08:00] not paying for delivery for delivery fees on Grubhub.So when I think back to 2004, it's hard to believe some of the other things going on at that time. MySpace was the most popular social media. That's crazy. Mark Zuckerberg had just launched the Facebook at Harvard. Google was beta testing Gmail. Shake Shack opened its first and best, if you ask me, location in New York City and OutKast had the number one song, which was Hey, yeah, if that matters.Damian: I remember that.Marnie: It really is amazing how much changes in 20 years and even as a third-party delivery industry, that industry has changed so much from aggregating menus, and actually the delivery part of the business didn't even start until [00:09:00] 10 years into those 20 years.Damian: Wow. And he also started in Chicago as a local concern. And obviously you've built up a national presence since then. Can you talk a little bit about that?Marnie: Yeah, Grubhub did launch in Chicago in 2004, and it was the brainchild of the two founders and was about aggregating menus and fully in service of restaurants.it's beginnings are even technically before that because, the brand acquired the Seamless brand which started in 1999. But that acquisition happened in 2013. Each part of our evolution, we've [00:10:00] constantly been looking for new ways to bring value, to bring selection, to bring better service and speed to our customers.Ilyse: And now, what innovations do you see Grubhub making even in the near term to stay on top of like emerging trends and industry changes? Obviously, A. I. Is everywhere and I know that's one thing apps like Grubhub are looking into and experimenting with, but maybe even across creative. So I'm curious about that.Marnie: Yeah, I think that one area of excitement for us and great innovation is our campus business. So what many people don't know is that Grubhub's campus business started about six years ago with the acquisition of an Israeli based tech company called Topenia. And, today we work with more than 360 universities and, nearly 5 million students.And what's really interesting about this [00:11:00] partnership is that it's not superficial. It's not just: download the app and you be like a regular customer on our app. They actually, depending on the university, have their dining dollars go directly through Grubhub. So when you arrive at school, one of the first things you have happen at orientation is you are told to sign up for Grubhub and link your dining dollars.And One of the schools where my daughter actually goes is our flagship school, Ohio State University, and that is probably the most robust version of our campus partnership where we actually have the food from the campus restaurants and dining facilities delivered by robots, and I will tell you that it's pretty cool. The robots are available at a number of colleges and as we think about the future of the category, I think it's scratching the surface on what might be readily available as ways that we can you know [00:12:00] sort of buck the speed of, how we currently deliver in urban areas by bicycle and motorbike and, you know, in the suburbs by car.So I think, drone delivery or robot delivery could be on the horizon. I also think, creatively thinking about our different categories of delivery, we have an opportunity to create more curated and exclusive experiences. There are a lot of competitors that deliver from a lot of the categories that we deliver in, but it's really about how we combine our categories and verticals of delivery to create unique experiences that you can't find anywhere else.Damian: How important is what's going on in culture to the way you position yourself in market?Marnie: I think that culture is really driving everything and we do a tremendous amount of paid and organic social where we aim to capitalize on cultural moments. So, you know, as we see people talking about either the brand, or about [00:13:00] food, or about Charlie XCX, or whatever it is, that we can tap into and follow a meme, or join in the conversation.It's really important to be agile and to be able to get out there fast and just have a voice. It doesn't mean we necessarily have to create an entire campaign that taps into that cultural moment. But what we've learned is, it's really important to be in the conversation in order to drive relevance.It is a very crowded marketplace and there are many people spending a lot of money, many competitors, but we find that influencers are really helping us, to really speak to our customers in a moment when they're, craving food, wanting to order food and we've seen terrific engagement from the programs that we're doing as well as increased brand perceptions.And that's the other thing about partnerships, whether it be with Amazon or influencers [00:14:00] across the gamut, we really look to partner with others that help improve our brand perception and lift all boats.Damian: As you look ahead to later this year and beyond, what are the priorities for you as a brand? Is it a question of scaling, building more couriers, building more restaurants, building more consumers? What's the kind of game plan if it could look big picture?Marnie: Big picture, there's so much opportunity in this category to continue to grow, to delight consumers, and also to meet their needs.So, creating more intuitive and using AI elements of the app is really important. We have a ton of data about our consumers because they're in our ecosystem, but really leveraging that data using AI and creating more intuitive experience and more seamless experience in the app is definitely a priority.Also, as I [00:15:00] mentioned, more curated and exclusive experiences. How can we capitalize on this very unique mix of retailers essentially available on our app to create experiences that you can't find anywhere else? Partnerships is definitely a priority. How can we continue to leverage that and sort of aggregate value for customers.And finally, speed is really important and even distance of delivery because people are looking for the restaurants they love, they're looking to get them, when they want them. Ilyse: that note, with all those preferences and consumer habits that obviously leads to a lot of data that you have within the app, and you briefly mentioned, using AI to make that consumer experience a little easier on the end consumer.Can you talk about how that works with AI a little bit and perhaps maybe do you on the creative end tap that [00:16:00] data for future campaigns?Marnie: Really, we are exploring and experimenting with A. I. And we don't have the answer or the end of that story to share yet, but we all experience it on a daily basis being online and everybody's using chat GPT to write their speeches or whatever but in the case of food delivery, it really will allow us to become more intuitive, and that's really the key because people are looking for shortcuts. They're looking for brands that get them and know them and that understand their pain points and their inflection points.The other thing that we're doing, and this isn't necessarily using our own data, is finding opportunities for moments or milestones where we really can make a difference in people's lives. One example of this that you may have seen is we had launched in August of 2024, a special delivery campaign, which was targeted [00:17:00] at expectant moms, and we provided them based on their engagement and signing up their first meal after giving birth.And that was really based on the insight that as you're expecting, there's a lot of things you can't eat and you crave these things, whether they're sushi or believe it or not, deli meat,  and a lot of things that could, could cause a bacteria or, an infection for the baby. So at the point where the baby is born, the first thought is, what am I going to eat?And we were able to meet that need with a special delivery from Grubhub. So it's really about using data to get into what's important to consumers as opposed to just for data's sake.Marnie: We have a ton of data about what consumers order and actually, every December, we produce some stats about where the trends are going and even some personal stats as a [00:18:00] Grubhub Plus member that you might receive about your own ordering habits. which can be very interesting because many of our employees find out that their kids are doing most of their ordering and they get surprised quite a bit. But one of the things that really surprises me is that the most ordered convenience store drink is not Diet Coke, which a lot of people guess. Not Celsius, which a lot of people guess. Interestingly, I know, it's Dr. Pepper.Marnie: Another one I'm always am surprised by is the fastest growing pizza topping.Ilyse: Pineapple? Marnie: Bingo. Yes, pineapple is the fastest growing pizza Ilyse: Not in New York. Marnie: Those are my two favorites.Damian: I like that, yeah. You should have a Grubhub quiz. Marnie: We'll get one to you. Ilyse: Is it like a Spotify [00:19:00] wrapped kind of thing?Marnie: It's exactly like a Spotify wrapped where you can learn about what you order. and then also what America's ordering. So it, it serves as a way to tap into the cultural zeitgeist.Ilyse: Very funDamian: Alright, perfect. Thank you so much. Marnie: Thank you again for having me. Marnie: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Damian:  And remember, Marnie: There lot of competitors that deliver from a lot of the categories that we deliver in, but it's really about how we combine our categories and verticals of delivery to create unique experiences that you can't find anywhere else.Damian: I'm Damian.Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Amex's Jessica Ling sits down with The Current Podcast to discuss the biggest differences between marketing to business and to consumers, and how the brand considers the effectiveness and efficiency of marketing investments. She also touches on how Amex is reaching Gen Z by tapping into their passions and fandoms, such as a partnership with Olivia Rodrigo. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:04] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Jess Ling, Executive Vice President of Global Brand Advertising at American Express. [00:00:12] Damian: Now, American Express, as everyone knows, is one of the world's most recognized brands. Thanks especially to its striking visual identity on its cards, which features the company logo of a centurion, which evokes trust and security. Now, Amex is a company that can chart its cultural presence through its legacy of brand campaigns, all the way to date with its powerful backing campaign. [00:00:35] Ilyse: Jess has been at Amex for the past five years. As part of her role, she oversees Amex's in house creative agency. During her time, she's helped grow the brand's offerings into experiences and benefits for its many members. [00:00:48] Damian: Now, Jess built her career at Amex first as a B2B marketer, but now she's a consumer facing brand marketer. We started by asking her about this transition. [00:00:57] Damian: Jess, thank you for being here. [00:00:59] Jess: Thank you [00:01:00] for having me. [00:01:00] Damian: I know that you've spent six years at Verizon doing B2B marketing and your first four years at Amex were also B2B, but you've shifted now into a different department. [00:01:10] What's that change like and what are the differences when it comes to marketing to businesses versus marketing to consumers?  [00:01:18] Jess: Yeah, but it's a great question. I actually spent, I would say, probably the first 17 years of my career. In B to B and in revenue marketing. And even when I came to American Express, it was B to B marketing. But it was also performance marketing. So very, very heavy on the acquisition side. [00:01:35] What I would say is, more actually unites them than separates them, right? When you think about B2B versus B2C, it is really fundamentally about knowing your audience. It's about understanding segmentation. It's about being very anchored in insights, understanding what motivates and what challenges your consumer, whether that is a small business, corporate prospect or a consumer. It's a little bit different in terms of the way we bring our brand to life, right? When you think about, more business focused channels versus consumer channels, but I would say at its core, the discipline is the same. And in fact, the rigor that you bring from B to B into B to C enables you to be a bit more focused on what are the financial and revenue implications of the work that we're doing. [00:02:27] Damian: We're hearing that a lot more now about the CFO and the CMO being much closer together. Is that a factor for you as a marketer? [00:02:33] Jess: you as a marketer? Financial outcomes are very important to us as a brand. It's really important. We are a performance driven culture. Much of our marketing is performance driven. I would say even on the brand side of the house, We are incredibly rigorous, and so we think a lot about not just the efficacy of our investments, but the efficiency of them. [00:02:55] And so while I am thinking about, metrics that are a little bit, higher [00:03:00] in the funnel, so I think about consideration, I think about awareness, it's not consideration and awareness at any cost or by any means, right? So I still very deeply think, about the return on investment from a brand standpoint. [00:03:15] Damian: Just off the back of that, how connected are the pieces of this for you? You obviously focus on global brand strategy, but you're also very much focused on, the data side of it. how important is bringing those two things together?  [00:03:37] Jess: It's very very important and we think about it as much as a closed loop as possible. What insights go into the strategy? How do we leverage those insights throughout the customer journey? [00:03:42] And then how do we use data that we gain along the way to optimize, right? And so one of the things that I think can be a little bit dangerous as a one way street of insights into strategy, into plan, Without that back loop of optimization, were the insights that we used actually [00:04:00] accurate? How do we think about, improving not just the creative output or the media plan, but the foundation of data and insights that underscore it?  [00:04:09] Ilyse: Now, American Express as a brand has gone well beyond just being a charge card or financial product, you have now positioned yourself as a brand that offers, its members like experiences and benefits. How do you think about evolving the brand while continuing to protect its legacy? [00:04:29] Jess: Yes, that's a question we think about every day. What I would say is that we don't think of ourselves as a credit card company, right? Or we're in the financial services category, but we're very much in the business of membership. And so when someone is thinking about our brand, We need to transcend the category of, that financial transaction or that payment moment. [00:04:52] And so our movement into experiences and lifestyle benefits is very much because we [00:05:00] believe that when you are an Amex card member, You are indeed a member, and that membership enables you access not just to seamless payment moments, but also to travel, to dining, to entertainment, and those are very sustainable categories for us.  [00:05:18] Ilyse: Now Amex historically has been associated with wealth and status. You have the Amex gold card or the platinum card, for instance. And yet you've recently made moves to attract Gen Zers who perhaps, aren't your traditional customer. They're, they are getting older and getting more money themselves, for sure, but there's still some younger ones in that generation. [00:05:41] Ilyse: And you've done partnerships with Olivia Rodrigo. Can you talk about these campaigns and why it's important to really connect with the younger generation? [00:05:52] Jess: Well, first of all, Gen Z and Millennial customers are the future of our customer base. So it's very, important for us to [00:06:00] be building momentum with them. [00:06:01] We have a very deliberate strategy. If you think about our newest card members, 60 percent of our new consumer accounts are Gen Z and Millennial. And that's not by accident, right? We have been evolving. Our product propositions to be very dynamic and responsive. And so when you think about, the question of how do you protect the brand while evolving it? [00:06:21] What I would say is the brand is built on 174 years of trust, security and safety. And so when you think about consistency over time, what you give yourself permission to do as a brand is then evolve on that consistency, right? So in order to be innovative you have to start from a really strong foundation Where we found that innovation is very much speaking to younger audiences. [00:06:43] And so you mentioned the Olivia Rodrigo Partnership that's an example of something that's very important to us because As an Amex card member, you're unable to get closer to the things that you love, right? And so we really try to tap into passion and fandom. [00:07:00] And Olivia is an incredible ambassador for Gen Z. [00:07:03] And we're really excited about our ability to, whether it's pre sale, whether it's merchandise, get our card members closer to the music and the artists they love.  [00:07:15] Damian: going back to your point about reading the tea leaves, reading the data. do you see when it comes to Gen Z consumers? And I know that's not a monolithic blog, but do they interact with the brand? in a different ways to say, more established customers. [00:07:31] Jess: established customers? Here's what I would say about Gen Z that we, we find really interesting as a brand. They care deeply about, supporting brands that share their values, right? And for us, it's, We are a values led brand, and we are not reactive necessarily to, the thing in front of us, right? We have been, as an example, in the business of supporting small businesses for a very long time. And what we find is that Gen Z consumers care deeply about community. They care deeply about small [00:08:00] business. And it's a very natural intersection with where American Express has always been. [00:08:04] And so You know, I think the trick is we're not creating a platform to respond to what Gen Z is interested in. We happen to already be there from a value standpoint, and we find that our consumers, especially the younger ones, it really resonates with them. And [00:08:20] Damian: and speaking of reaching, those audiences, are there any particular nuances to the way you go about doing that? in the current environment, we're talking about the rise of CTV and all of these different opportunities. [00:08:32] Jess: Yeah, there are a couple. I will. I'll speak to one example. We're really excited and proud of. We have had a partnership with the bear, which is a show on FX, for two seasons now. And one of the reasons we're so excited about it is because it's a new show. The conversation about the show is bigger than the show, right? [00:08:48] Just like as a brand, the conversation around Amex is bigger than the card. And so we really look for adjacencies that help us tap into the cultural zeitgeist, right? And when you think [00:09:00] about an opportunity like The Bear, it's the perfect platform for Amex. It's about a small business owner, it's about dining, there's incredible social dialogue about it. [00:09:09] And so that's one example of how we go outside of traditional advertising to build that connection and relevance. [00:09:15] Damian: On that point, I guess, the idea that it's a customer centric brand, could you say a little bit more about how you center and focus on the customer? [00:09:23] Ilyse: Yes, [00:09:24] Jess: absolutely. So we have a global brand platform. [00:09:27] It's called powerful backing, and it really is rooted in that 174 years of trust, security and service. And at the core are our customers, right? And so when we think about whether it's an ad campaign, whether it's a product, whatever it is, how does it manifest that brand promise of powerful backing? And one of the questions that we think about a lot is consistency through the line, right? [00:09:50] So. Whether you see us on social media, whether you see us in TV, whether you see us, in a more sort of direct response, type piece of communication, we still want to make sure that you're [00:10:00] feeling the brand come through, and that when you are a customer, every transaction, every interaction you have, you should feel backed, by the membership. [00:10:08] I want to [00:10:09] Ilyse: to talk a little bit about live sports because American Express has such a big presence at a ton of major live sports events. I believe like 47 venues and teams all together, which is just a huge number. and that includes like NBA and US Open, Wimbledon and more. why do these events hold so much power for Amex? [00:10:32] Jess: They hold power because passion around sports and live sports is an enduring passion, right? [00:10:38] It is. I think we just celebrated our 31st year of partnership with the U. S. T. A. And the U. S. Open. We have a very longstanding partnership with the N. B. A. We have a partnership with F one in the Americas that were very excited about. And it's because the conversation and the passion around sports is deeply meaningful [00:11:00] to our customers and our ability to get them benefits and access that are so connected to what they love. Is very important for us and is an enduring platform. What does it [00:11:11] Ilyse: it mean for a legacy brand like Amex that, dates back to 1847? I believe 1850, I was close. 1850, to stay relevant in today's world. and how do you, I guess, maintain that consistency as, a luxury product, but also integrated into, everyday life? Yeah, [00:11:33] Jess: I think it is about, very closely watching the balance between staying consistent as a brand so that our customers and our prospects. [00:11:42] know deeply what we stand for, and what experience they'll have once they become a card member and leveraging that consistency to be very dynamic and innovative on the product front. And I think that's how we balance it, right? When you think about the American express brand over time, it should still evoke [00:12:00] the same emotion, right? [00:12:01] Powerful backing, access to the things that you're passionate about. But when you think about how our products have evolved over time, If I point out just the recent gold card, right, we just refreshed American Express gold and it's full of incredibly relevant dining benefits, right? There's a Dunkin benefit. [00:12:19] There's a partnership with Rezzy and benefits there, which are very, very, they're very anchored towards speaking to the audience and what they're looking for today. So we really think about that complement between stable brand, consistent brand and dynamic products. [00:12:35] Damian: As you're in charge of the brand story, if you like, do you look back at the legacy of amazing campaigns that American Express has had in the, throughout the, last 50 years have a and build on that?  [00:12:48] Jess: Yes, in fact, question a very, very rich history. And what I would say that I'm so proud of is that the history of our brand is often told through the advertising. Right? And so when you look back in time at [00:13:00] 174 years of a brand, and we do have this history, we look at it, my teams are trained in it. What you see is every Big moment in the company's history is paired with what was the advertising of the brand at that time. [00:13:14] And so for us, our history and our heritage, we live that every day. And when we think about how to bring that forward, it is with all of the equity of the advertising that came before us. [00:13:26] Damian: is question off that. Is era of fragmentation?  [00:13:35] Jess: it's not because we have a global brand platform, right? So no matter where you are in the world You should feel the brand come to life in a way that brings powerful backing to the front. what we've made major progress on is making sure that as a consumer, when you take your American Express card with you around the globe, that you're confident in, the acceptance around, the world in terms of, being able to buy with confidence at merchants that [00:14:00] you want to support. And so we've made, huge strides there, but we continue to be a globally consistent brand. One thing I wanted [00:14:07] Damian: I wanted to ask you about, obviously American Express by definition is a U. S. brand. And I've noticed sometimes it's less used, perhaps in Europe. I'm wondering if you see areas of opportunity to build out the brand, build that growth story in other markets. [00:14:22] Jess: other markets? [00:14:23] Yeah, and I think, look, there are markets that very important to us. There are growing markets that we are, a little bit newer as a brand, in terms of our penetration there. but what I would say is when you think about, a market like the UK, you'll see us, you can, you'll see us come to life in powerful ways from a brand standpoint. You'll see us at Wimbledon. you'll see us in music festivals. And when you're out there using your card in everyday ways, it'll be a seamless experience for you. [00:14:51] Damian: Yeah, I do see that at Wimbledon and, and around those major music festivals. Yeah. [00:14:57] Ilyse: as a, charge card financial [00:15:00] product, American Express has a lot of consumer data at its fingertips. How does that data help you in any way with the creative process? When it comes to branding and campaigns, do you consider it whether it's like business outcomes or in the KPIs that you said? [00:15:19] Jess: mean, what I would say is, at its core, my job is to tell great stories, that are grounded in insights that, of course, are backed by data. what I would say is, when we think about our creative strategy and we look at data and insight, It's two things need to be true. They need to be true in culture and they need to be true for American Express. [00:15:39] If they're only true for one half of that equation, it doesn't resonate. And so I'll give you a quick example. we have a ton of data and in one of our recent travel studies, we found that I think it was over 75 percent of millennials want to take a solo trip this year. So it's certainly true for American Express, but you can't go on Tik and not see amazing [00:16:00] travel adventures of millennial and Gen Z people taking vacations alone, right? So again, it's an example of something that we're seeing our customers do and something that is true and identifiable in culture. And so that becomes a creative territory for us, right? How do we then create stories based on that insight? [00:16:17] And we launched a piece of creative. It's called all by myself, and it's about a woman traveling on her own to Greece, and she collects friends and experiences along the way. And of course. and it's leveraging the benefits of American Express. And so it's only through that combination that we really get the most out of the data and insights. [00:16:35] Ilyse: All right, so Jess, tell me, what does it mean for a legacy brand like Amex to stay relevant? [00:16:42] You obviously have been around since 1850, which is a long time. And how do you then maintain that consistency as a luxury product, but also integrate into everyday life? [00:16:55] Jess: great question. Um, and we think that all of the time. And [00:17:00] it really is, that balance between a very consistent, stable and disciplined brand, which over time you mentioned since 18 50 we have stayed true to the values of trust, security and service, right? [00:17:13] And so when you build on that foundation, you're then able to create a very dynamic product set that is responsive to the needs of today's consumers. And so one example that I will give because you asked about everyday value, Is that we recently refreshed the MX gold product, and it is very much built for purpose for today's customer, right? [00:17:35] And so when you think about the benefits on that card, it's very dining forward because we know that our customers, especially Gen Z and millennial customers are obsessed with great dining. They're obsessed with food and experiences, and so it's one way in which we keep true to the brand while also continuing to innovate and elevate through our products. [00:17:57] Damian: So Jess, you oversee Amex's in house creative [00:18:00] agency. What does it mean to have the agency in house? How does that give you flexibility and agility, which is one of the key buzzwords [00:18:07] Jess: buzzwords, right? It is, it's an incredible privilege to lead our in house creative agency. It's called On Brand. it's full of incredibly talented, creative folks, but also project managers and account managers and strategists. and we really leverage On Brand to create, excellent creative quality. On Brand. [00:18:27] Throughout the enterprise. And so, when I think about our brand, you think about The sort of big advertising channels that we do, and we have agencies of record who help us with that on Brent also contributes to that. But we do still have a roster of really, really close agency partners. But when you think about the internal agency, think about all of the advertising and communication that go out from the business units. [00:18:50] That talk to our colleagues that talk to prospective colleagues. and all of that, having that in house really led by brand stewards. These people work at the brand. They live and [00:19:00] breathe the MX brand. it pays dividends in terms of the quality of the work, our ability to partner across American Express. [00:19:08] and of course, to deliver more efficiency.  [00:20:18] Damian: Okay, yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for your time and insight. [00:20:23] Jess: It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me. [00:20:26] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:20:28] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:20:31] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:37] Damian: And remember,  [00:20:39] Jess: When you look back in time at 174 years of a brand, What you see is every Big moment in the company's history is paired with what was the advertising of the brand at that time. [00:20:51] And so for us, our history and our heritage, we live that every day. And when we think about how to bring that forward, it is [00:21:00] with all of the equity of the advertising that came before us.  [00:21:03] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:21:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:21:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Goalhanger's Tony Pastor explores building the U.K.'s leading independent podcast production company which includes shows like The Rest is History, The Rest is Politics and The Rest is Football. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we sit down with Tony Pastor, the co-founder of Goalhanger, the UK's leading independent podcast production company. After a career as a TV producer, first at the BBC and then at ITV in the sports department, Tony teamed up with Gary Lineker, the former international football star turned broadcaster, to create the company. It launched its podcast hub in 2019. In just a few years, Goal Hanger has gone from strength to strength with hit podcast shows like The Rest is Football and The Rest is History, which apparently clock up 42 million downloads a month and counting. We'll get into the creative process in a minute about what makes these shows so successful. But first, I wanted to ask Tony about how Goalhanger was created.  Tony: I set up Goal Hanger with my co host Gary Lineker, who in the UK is a well known media figure and former [00:01:00] footballer back in 2014. I'd been, a producer at ITV, a big TV company in the UK, and then left to set up my own production company. We concentrated largely on making sports documentaries, and then slowly the business changed, and, by 2019, we were launching our own podcasts, and in the last couple of years, it's become the main part of our business.  Damian: You know, the podcast hub was launched, I know more recently than the actual whole production company and it's now like hosting some of the UK's most popular podcasts. I know that the company's just reported record audience figures for the May, July period this 2024. Big hit shows like the rest is football, which is co hosted by Gary Lineker. And the rest is politics and several others, you know, I'm kind of curious to how you achieved this in a world with, let's say, tens of thousands of podcasts.  Tony: Well, it's a good question. [00:02:00] And the big challenge in the world of podcasting is discoverability. It's not easy for audiences, listeners to find new content. There's an awful lot of really good podcasts out there, but unfortunately they're not easy to find. We have had a bit of luck on that front because once you build a successful podcast, you can then tell people about anything new that you do. And there's no doubt that the number one way you can make sure that people know about a new podcast is if they're already listening to a podcast because they're on the right platform there, then they're enjoying the right form of medium. Once we had the rest is history at a super successful level, it made the launch of political shows and our entertainment shows and our sports shows that bit easier . Damian: So the rest is history was the kind of vehicle was the kind of prototype as it were. Is that fair?  Tony: Well, actually we launched a podcast, that was a real niche podcast, in 2019. It's called we have ways of making you talk and [00:03:00] it's all about the history of the second world war and I did it really almost as a hobby. It was great fun. I launched it with a great historian called James Holland and a comedian called Al Murray, both of whom are real aficionados of the period. It quite quickly became a bit of a cult. No doubt lockdown during the COVID period helped in a way because it meant people were stuck at home seeking content. Podcasts are, producible remotely, we were able to really up the amount of content we produced. Suddenly it went from being very niche to some, to having quite a significant audience. And then the next iteration really was to say, we've got a successful podcaster that is, doing north of a million downloads a month, it's making some money and what would happen if we, did a podcast about more than just six years of history? In fact, let's do the whole of history. And that's how the rest is history was born and it broke out, became a super success and it really showed us that the format of intelligent people talking in an entertaining way about something they know a great deal about [00:04:00] really could work.  Damian: That's pretty ambitious. I've got to say, the idea of doing the whole of history. And I've got to say, I am an avid listener to the rest is history. Absolutely fantastic show with the two co-hosts, Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland, who've got this got this brilliant rapport. Between them, I'm wondering if you could sort of like for people who haven't heard it  just give a kind of distillation of the kind of tone and style of that podcast.  Tony: Sure, it's a history podcast. It tells narrative stories, fabulous stories from history. Be that the story of Napoleon or the French revolution or the sinking of the Titanic, the rise of the Nazis. These are all subjects that have been covered extensively in the last 12 months, for example. But what it really does is it's two, people who know an awful lot about the subject, who research it really, really well, but then have a fantastic conversation. Fairly light conversation in a very entertaining, witty, well informed way. The best way I can [00:05:00] describe the tone of voice of The Rest is History is if you could imagine being sat in a bar or a cafe and hearing two people who know each other really well and are good mates chatting about something they're fascinated by in a very entertaining way. That's The Rest is History.  Damian: And that formula also kind of carries over into the other podcasts, like for instance, the rest is football similarly, it's like, three guys having a kind of elevated, smart, funny conversation about what's just happened in the week, the week in, whether it be the Premier League or international football or what have you, is that fair?  Tony: Yes, I think that is fair. I mean, we don't, create relationships on air with our podcasters. We basically, listen in on relationships that already exist. So Gary Lineker, Micah Richards and Alan Shearer, all great soccer players in their own right. But more important than that, their mates, and you get a real strong sense of that when you listen to them talking, they love their football, they watch it endlessly, they [00:06:00] have a WhatsApp group that frankly you could publish and probably get 100,000 subscribers to, it's so entertaining, it's all about what's going on in football constantly, and they basically bring that conversational style, that very matey friendly, but intelligent and analytical style to their conversations three times a week on a Monday, they look back over the weekend's action on a Wednesday. They try and answer as many of the audience's questions as they can. And on Friday they review the midweek and look forward to the weekend. So it's an ongoing conversation, between three guys who frankly. If we weren't recording it, would be having the same conversations anyway. Damian: I love that, insight. Damian: So I want to shift a little bit to ask you about the, business perspective. And what need, as it were, did you tap in the UK market? Which, obviously has a wide variety and diversity of broadcast options because the BBC is there. So, how did you get that market?  Tony: Well, I think first of all, I would say that the BBC does a brilliant, brilliant [00:07:00] job. It's a wonderful broadcast that makes an incredible amount of diverse content, but it has to, it has to serve an awful lot of people so it can, find itself spread a little thin. One of the great attributes of podcasting as we discovered with our second world war history pod is that you can super serve a group of people who want something very specific. So the second world war pod is listened to by about 80 to 100,000 people. But it's listened to by them religiously twice a week and that means we get 1. 2 million downloads a month. That audience is not being served anywhere else. So that was our first insight. We then looked at kind of the broader history offering in traditional radio and it was all slightly stale. It had been the same for a long time when we wanted to have a slightly fresher, newer, more entertainment focused approach and, I'd like to tell you it was super planned, but in fact, it was about getting too [00:08:00] great talent to have good conversations. And, we spent nothing on marketing the entire growth of that podcast. The question I get asked most, which is really insightful in many ways, I think was it, why wasn't history taught like this at school? If it had been taught like this at school, I would never have dropped it as a subject. I've always loved history, but it was always done in such a dry way. Why couldn't it have been taught in this entertaining fashion at school? And I hope that's what we're actually providing for those for all those millions of people who love their history. We're giving them a new access point to it. Damian: Yeah, absolutely. I just listened to the five part series on Martin Luther and I remember going back to my history A level where I had, you know, hopefully she's not listening, but a pretty dull history teacher, but I learned everything about Martin Luther now, all these years later from that podcast. Absolutely brilliant with all its references.  Tony: Absolutely, so there's one other thing I'm going to say to you which is, I think the commissioning model is slightly broken. I think the traditional model whereby somebody in their [00:09:00] broadcast ivory tower decides whether or not a pitch, a content pitch, will be the right thing for their audience. I think it just doesn't work anymore. There's, it's too, we've got to a point now where commissioners are trying to satisfy too many things at once. Whereas we can just say, this is what we want to do. We don't need a commissioner. We don't need, the finances of a traditional broadcaster. We'll self fund this. We believe in it. We can experiment. We can try stuff and it's been liberating for us creatively because we can, we can decide we want to do a podcast on Martin Luther which frankly nobody would ever commission and we can do it. And lo and behold it found a terrific audience,  likewise we did, you know we did four parts on the falklands war. We did an extended season on custer. We did a long series on the nazis now the nazis will always get covered  in traditional media. But,  we were able to do, for example, this year, we took the guys to Sarajevo to talk about the start [00:10:00] of the first world war and the first shot that was fired, the assassination of our shoot, Franz ferdinand, you know, that's the kind of thing I just don't think traditional broadcasters are going to commission, but we're able to do it and find an audience with it. Damian: Yeah, I want to ask you a little bit about the revenue model from a business perspective. you know, um, a little bit, we, we keep hearing in the U S about the ad opportunity, especially in podcasts. I'm curious from your perspective, what's that opportunity like in the UK?  Tony: Well, the ad part of it is challenging. The UK is not a very big market. It is nothing like the US market. For example, the advertising slash sponsorship market in the US around podcasting is something like $4 billion a year. In the UK it's more like a hundred million. Dollars a year. It's a pretty small pizza in terms of, that needs slicing up between, all the commercial players in the UK and frankly, if the BBC enter into this market as they're [00:11:00] threatening to do, it will be even more challenging for us. We've had to be pretty creative around the commercial side of it. So yes, we're absolutely fishing in the advertising and sponsorship pond, but we're also looking at subscription models. In fact, we've got six very successful subscription clubs for our podcasts. This is where audiences, super fans who really love the pod can get access early, can get it ad free, can get bonus content, can get live show tickets early, et cetera. And that's proved very successful. We also do live shows and the live shows, do very well. You know, the rest is history last night we did it live in Cambridge, in the university center, Cambridge in front of more than a thousand people. The rest is politics is going on a nationwide tour. We're doing seven cities. We've sold 30, 000 tickets across that tour. So yes, we've had to be quite. Smart, frankly, and see disparate potential,  financial models for our podcasts so that they can really function.  Damian: Yeah, it makes [00:12:00] sense. I know,  people talk a lot about the kind of, the special relationship that, Podcast hosts have with their audience and sort of ipso facto that kind of translates a little bit into advertising and how advertising works, whether it be host read or ~whether it comes in, Tony: programmaticly Damian: programmatically. yeah. that's the word. I'm kind of curious to hear what response you've had from advertisers, in terms of what's your pitch to them?  Tony: Yeah. I mean, our pitch to them is really relatively straightforward unlike nearly all other forms of media currently we're growing, the traditional TV and radio commercial radio models are shrinking. They're struggling. It's not easy for them. The streamers, Netflix and Apple And all the usual customers are now. Causing traditional TV to have to be very inventive and work with smaller budgets. We're the opposite. We know the, the podcast market is growing. every year. Our audience is very [00:13:00] young, so we skew much younger than all of the other mediums. So, 48 percent of our listeners are under 34. So half of our audience is effectively in their teens, twenties and early thirties, which is,  attractive to commercial partners. And, we have very, very long listen times. People are fine, find the content compelling and engaging. So,  the rest of history's average listen time is 41 minutes. Now,  this is great news. I'm always very reassured by this because people have told me for a long time that young audiences want only bite sized content that they can swipe through and everything has to be a minute or less. What we might call the tick tock generation. Well, we're discovering that's not true  People in their twenties and thirties want long form, intelligent, entertaining conversations. They want, they want to hear content that entertains them, that informs them, that educates them. I'm starting to sound positively BBC wreathian, but you know, they basically They basically do want [00:14:00] long form. People are commuting, they're exercising, they're walking dogs, they're cooking. They want to have something that entertains them, that, that informs them and a lot of people we know listen to our podcasts while they're doing something else. So I think the sell to commercial partners really is that, our listeners are super engaged. They're young, they're highly educated and by and large,  we've done surveys, by the way, large scale surveys of over 20, 000 of our listeners, they earn really good salaries. They usually are executive and managerial levels in their businesses. These are the movers and shakers, the people who inform the way that,  that our nations are moving. So there are really, really interesting and valuable audience.  Damian: Yeah, it's, such a cliche now to say that young people have no attention. Clearly that's, that's not the case.  Tony: It's, it's, it's absolute nonsense. It's not true.  Damian: Yeah, it really is. And It's reassuring to hear that too. You know, in terms of the,  you mentioned it's growing. How far can it grow? What's the sort of [00:15:00] scale you can, when you think about I think the statistic I read was that 20 percent of UK listeners listen to a podcast every week. That's a lot of headroom, right? You've got left.  Tony: Oh, it's super exciting on that score. We are definitely nowhere near peak podcasting. I can tell you why, because nobody over about 55 is listening to podcasts because they, they never did. They didn't do growing up with it. The older generations, the people who are perhaps retired and who would enjoy our podcast most are just not listening. , They're perhaps didn't grow up with the technology. They're not quite as comfortable, opening an app and downloading audio content. I think that as people age with that native ability to use the technology and enjoy the content, there's a whole generation of people we will add between say 55 and 80, whatever, who will suddenly become listeners. There's probably 30 percent upside just when we start being listened to and enjoyed by an older generation, which is not happening at the moment. Damian: [00:16:00] That's a great point. Yeah, I think as people, get used to the tech, that's it. And then I don't, who knows what's coming up. You also have talked about, pushing podcasts into video as well.  And I are talking right now on zoom, but people listening are just listening to this, with their air pods or what have you, what's the benefit in a way of, pushing podcasts, onto video, is it to see those hosts sparring with each other, people are curious. Tony: This is the area that intrigues us most about what we do. The advent of video really came from the US. We started to hear Prominent podcasters talk about watching podcasts rather than listening to podcasts. And we started to ask ourselves, why are they doing that? What is the gain? Surely it's not just for the programmatic ads on YouTube or Facebook. We were determined to trial it and see what the benefits were by practice, by actually trying it out.  And what we discovered was, This was [00:17:00] an entirely different audience. So for example, during the euros, as I mentioned, 9. 7 million audio downloads and 10 million video downloads. They're not the same people with that. This was entirely additional audience. The other thing about it is, but there's a couple of things. One is that it helps with cross promotion. We can cut this content up, put a push it out on social, on Insta and Tik TOK and Twitter, et cetera. But also when it comes to having partnerships, you know, with some of the bigger brands, there's that, that hundred million dollar UK podcast market is suddenly much greater. If you're talking to brands about partnerships that include video and social, there's a whole extra set of people you're in conversation with. And so you can effectively turn a podcast back into a show, a 360 show, which. Frankly, we don't mind where people encounter. We don't mind whether you watch, you listen, you see the clips on your social media feeds. As long as you're encountering our [00:18:00] content, we're happy. And that's really why we've pushed so heavily into video. So we take the opposite position of the walled garden. We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be? Damian: Yeah, love that. Love that thought. Is podcast growth dependent to a certain extent on those different platforms and platform growth? You know, if people listen through Spotify or Apple, what have you?  Tony: Well, I don't know whether it's dependent on that growth. It's an interesting question. What I can say is that we're agnostic. We don't mind where you are. We have a really good relationship with Spotify who are our, ad and sponsorship sales partner. But similarly, you know, we have a great relationship with Apple too, who handle a lot of our subscription clubs. And frankly, as I say, you know if you're there on YouTube or if you're there on Apple or Spotify, that's all fine. Yes, it does require people to be digitally native and comfortable with the digital platforms, but increasingly, as I say, apart from [00:19:00] perhaps my father's generation, who I still have to download podcasts for, you know apart from his generation,  I think most people now are pretty comfortable with the media.  Damian: So one of the great advantages of podcast production is that you, have a very close relationship with your audience. Could you give me some insight into how that breaks down in terms of subscribers and people who listen for free? What are you seeing? Tony: Sure. What we're seeing is that unlike the traditional, media relationship whereby a production company like us, we're Goalhanger. We would go in to see the commissioner at the BBC or channel four or ITV or NBC and we pitched them our idea and they would either say yes or no, usually no. But if they did commission it, we'd make it for them. We'd hopefully keep doing it. 10 percent production fee, they would then put it out. They would sell the ad slots to,  commercial partners and ultimately the relationship between the production company and the final audience is really remote. So ours is [00:20:00] really close. When we put our pods out free to air,  the audience listens to them. They contact us. We incorporate their questions. We have a very good relationship, very close relationship, but not nearly as close as we do with our subscribers. We've got about 90, 000 subscribers across our various podcasts. And what they get is a direct personal relationship with us. There's no, advertising. There's no sponsorship.  They don't have to wait for a podcast. So for example,  we'll, do a, six part series on the sinking of the Titanic. You can listen to that content spread out over three weeks for free with ads, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, or if you're a subscriber on that first Monday, you can have all six episodes immediately as a box set. That kind of a relationship is, I think, unique to podcasting where you love the content. You decide that for the Cost of an oat milk latte. You can basically get all six episodes immediately. And many of our listeners now are just saying, you know what? I want my content clean. I'd like to just come to you direct. I'll have it [00:21:00] immediately. By the way, I'd love to get prioritized for the live tickets for the show in New York. I'd like to get them ahead of the rest of the public. And so you develop this fantastic relationship with your listeners and your fans.  Damian: There seems to be a kind of recognition that staying authentic, is the way to scale. I was just, I was reading some comments by, Netflix boss Ted Sarandos at the RTS conference, Royal Television Society conference, who was saying, one of the big hits this year for them was Baby Reindeer, which is a very UK, British sensibility, but yet it's done really well. They didn't pander to a global audience. They kept it authentic. It seems like that is the same formula that's having success for you.  Tony: Well, it's really interesting this, isn't it? Because,  I've got three, I've got three, sons, two teenagers and a 20 year old, and they're watching tons of content on Netflix and, uh, and the variety of the streamers, and they're very happy watching, for example, Korean TV with subtitles. They'll watch dramas from Scandinavia with subtitles. They're very comfortable. [00:22:00] Watching authentic drama and cultural content from other nations. I don't know whether the kind of globalization of content has finally happened, the days when, if it didn't, when, if a movie didn't have a, an American star, it could never be watched around the world. I think it's gone. I think people are much more comfortable enjoying content from a variety of nations. Damian: Well, Tony, thank you so much for these insights. Great talking with you.  Tony: An absolute pleasure. Thanks very much for having me on. Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. The current podcast theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Kearns. And remember, Tony: We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be. Damian: I'm Damian and we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, The Current Report.

The U.S. CMO of the luxury car company discusses how integrating Jaguar Land Rover's brand alongside popular shows like Succession and The Gentlemen has helped deliver its message of quiet luxury. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Ilyse: [00:00:00] I'm Ilyse Liffreing Damian: And I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast. Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Charlotte Blank, U.S. Chief Marketing Officer of Jaguar Land Rover North America. Ilyse: Charlotte is responsible for JLR's House of brands, which includes the Land Rover Defender and Discovery, the Range Rover, as well as the new line of all electric Jaguar cars. Damian: Before she joined JLI, before she joined JLR, Charlotte gave a TED Talk in 2019 called Lead Like a Scientist, where she examined the psychology of motivation and what it means to lead. Ilyse: Charlotte says she's obsessed with testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. So that's where we started.  Damian: So hi, Charlotte. Thank you for joining us. Charlotte: Thank you for having me. Damian: In 2019, you did a TED talk called lead like a scientist in which, you talked about the importance of testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. Now, is that something you put into practice in your current role as CMO at JLR Charlotte: I would like to think so and I think there's room to do even more. I describe myself as a marketer by way of psychology. I did that TED Talk in a previous role as Chief Behavioral Officer of an incentive and motivation company where I really got to be at the forefront of research in behavioral economics and studying what we know about human behavior and social science and how that plays into understanding and motivating people to take action, which essentially is at the core of marketing. So we have so much of an opportunity to act and lead like scientists when we wear our hat as a marketing leader.  Damian: And what can other marketers do to sort of take some of those lessons that you were expressing in that talk? You know, and how can they integrate that into their daily work? Charlotte: I think to lead like a scientist, first and foremost, means to test things, to run experiments, and by that I mean true randomized controlled experiments, hold out test controls with properly randomized groups. And really from an applied standpoint, I think [00:02:00] marketers have been leading the way here. I mean, A B tests are standard practice. We see them as common practice in digital advertising and website optimization - really, it's kind of part of the daily work of being an excellent digital marketer in particular is to constantly be A B testing. But I think where there's more of an interesting opportunity to grow is more hypothesis driven testing. So not just the: “Will I see more clicks if I move this important box from the bottom of the page to the top?” But more: “I have this insight about something that really differentiates the consumers I'm trying to reach and how can I craft my messaging to get at that core psychological insight and testing those?” That I think is sort of the next step and where we can really make a difference. Damian: Could you give us an example of how you, you're putting that into practice at JLR? Charlotte: Absolutely. So we are on an exciting journey at JLR as part of our modern luxury transformation. We're really elevating the brands and taking everything up market and really responding to the rise in [00:03:00] wealth and the consumers that we reach from a modern luxury perspective. And part of the strategy to bring that to life is ‘House of Brands'. So JLR really no longer goes to market with the Land Rover brand as the front facing brand, but it fades back to allow Range Rover Defender and Discovery each to thrive in their own right. So this is an exciting opportunity for marketers to really tease apart the difference, for example, between a Range Rover customer and a Defender client. And that's really where the psychological insights come into play. So we've been doing some really interesting research that finds these ‘core differentiating nuggets', we call them. Just off the top of my head, some interesting insights were: Range Rover Sport target is extremely psychologically rich. They thrive in busyness and sort of the chaos of daily life that many of us know. Some of us love, some of us don't love. The Range Rover sport person loves to be very busy and to have their hands in lots of different things and they're rather impulsive. They lack the ability to delay gratification, and they don't [00:04:00] like to be overly structured or routine.So they like to just kind of go for it and go for their dreams and not really overthink things because they can handle doing multiple things at once. So I think you'll see, for example, in the new Range Rover Sport Creative as part of our new Velocity Blue campaign starring Theo James. He kind of exhibits that in the commercial.You see him sort of exploring the property, racing the car around the grounds, and going for an action to what turns out to be simply playing fetch with his dog. But it's this kind of heroic, fast paced scene that really brings to life that sort of busyness and a bit of impulsivity.Ilyse: bit of impulse. Now, as far as that campaign and then like future campaigns, you've talked a lot about the importance of media mix modeling. I'm curious why this is important  and would you say it's easier now to lead like a scientist in a marketing world that is more data driven? Charlotte: We're very excited to kick off our MMM (Media Mix Modelling) project. I think two weeks from today we're starting our [00:05:00] really what we're calling our marketing mix project because I think this is finally our chance to put all of the pieces really together in a rigorous scientific data driven way so that we can get a little more sophisticated about understanding and right sizing the expectations for what advertising investment can do in the short term when it comes to sales and that I'm kind of recognizing that in the automotive industry and probably in most others that it's not only about the advertising, but it's about the media strategy being carefully executed in concert with getting all the other pieces, right. Is the pricing right? Are the incentives right? What are the competitors doing? How old is the product? There are all of these factors that come into play, and we can put them all into the model to help us make better decisions about where to place a dollar at any given time for any particular model, and it may or may not be in more media. It might be for new creative, or it might be on adjusting the price. It might differ depending on the product, so I think that's going to make us, as a collective [00:06:00] enterprise, a lot more intelligent and data driven. Ilyse: intelligent. On that note, are there different markets for different vehicles across JLR brands? Damian: the Charlotte: Of course. I mean, that's really part of the fun of differentiating the four brands is they really are different core audiences. And again, this comes back for me to psychology, that when we look at the surface level at the demographics and we simply ask questions like: How old are these people? Are they married? What is their average household income? They look relatively similar to each other and to competitive brands, but we take another level down, we start peeling the onion and we look at: Well, how do they spend their time? And then we look even deeper: But what really drives them? What motivates them? What stage of life are they in psychologically? That's where they start to feel really different.So that can come to life in the ‘where' and ‘how' we approach our media buys and the partnerships we explore. But it also, again, you know, creative is king. It comes into the messaging and how we craft a story that resonates with people. Damian: I just gotta say on that [00:07:00] note, I did love the Theo James spot. The Range Rover spot because it was filmed at Harewood House, which is very close to where I grew up in Yorkshire. So I think I'm in the market for one of those and the same color, too. Charlotte: I was thrilled to hear that when you share that with me in your beautiful English accent, because it is, it's a really special location that was carefully chosen, partly to bring about that English heritage, you know, that's something that is such a special gift and a unique, ~um,~ distinctive asset for the Range Rover brand is ~that~ that English heritage going back to the queen and the royal family. And I think we've ~kind of~ gone through phases about how much in the degree that we play that up. But the time feels right culturally to really ~kind of ~celebrate that and bring forth a bit of cheeky modern Britishness. to the Range Rover sport brand and truly there's no better character for that than Theo James. You know what he brought to life in the Gentleman hit series on Netflix. ~Um,~ Range Rover was heavily integrated in that show. So we already benefited from the show's popularity and Theo's popularity and have a bit of [00:08:00] equity built with him. So I think it's just perfect that we got him to sort of star in the campaign Ilyse: to sort of star in the character. Not to Charlotte: quite handsome. That's true. Ilyse: And it is all about like marketing a lifestyle just as much as a vehicle. Charlotte: 100%. That's, that couldn't be more true, especially for a luxury brand. Ilyse: brand. And we Damian: we hear a lot, ~um,~ now of the importance of marketing being relevant to culture and that's a very good example of how you're tying in. You know relevance to cultural moments, ~you know,~ especially premium content like you mentioned white lotus the gentleman. ~It's ~It's sort of all aligned in lots of Charlotte: I am a huge fan of branded entertainment. Where people spend their leisure time, where their captive audience in front of a big screen in the comfort of their own home, and where they binge watch their favorite shows, Netflix, HBO. We've seen some incredible return on investment when we integrate our vehicles and our brand experience in a highly curated way, against some of these popular shows. Succession comes to mind. ~You know,~ Succession really brought in [00:09:00] this. notion of quiet wealth and like the uber luxury in a way that's a little bit more understated and reductive. The clothing they wear with the million dollar sweaters that just look really simple. There's something about ~that~ that really resonates with the Range Rover brand and the design aesthetic that's not overtly flashy or gaudy, ~um,~ but is a little more reductive and minimalist in design and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to life. Damian: and minimalist in design, and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to me. What insights have you got there around marketing to that group, that younger demographic, ~uh,~ especially given the fact that you're ~kind of ~leading with data? Charlotte: I think it's really important. ~I mean,~ we have to remind ourselves as as much as we do pay attention to performance marketing, and we've built a world class sophisticated martech stack and a [00:10:00] really strong team of digital marketers who are highly attuned to those kind of purchase intense signals and closing demand, ~you know,~ focusing on that lower part of the funnel. But at the end of the day, especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really build that love in people's hearts. And it, for many people starts early. I mean, some of the most interesting research I've seen, it's as if people are lying on a psychiatrist's couch, going back to their literal childhood memories: What does Range Rover mean to me in my heart? They're thinking about,~ you know,~ their father driving one, or the royal family, some early memories they had of it, or a show that they've seen, ~you know,~ brand and entertainment really comes to mind.~ Um,~ Defenders, ~um, ~sort of rocketing onto the scene in the recent James Bond movie with this really spectacular car chase is an example that, you know, is meant to appeal not only to people who are in market now or can afford one now, but potentially to, to the younger generations who might, ~you~ You know, put the theoretical poster up on the wall and dream of it in the future. So I think that's really important for us marketers. Ilyse: And that really,  ties into like. [00:11:00] Personalized journeys, especially if they look back at how they even came across the brand to begin with. When it comes to that as well, which channels are you testing as you like focus on like scale?  Charlotte: We're always testing new channels for scale. You know, a lot of our focus around building the upper funnel and growing our brands tremendously. Defender. We doubled sales in the U. S. last year. From, around 15, 000 a year to over 30 and did that very quickly with just a really concerted focus on building awareness, breaking through with really effective creative that drove breakthrough recall and brought a lot of new audiences, into awareness of the brand.And I think, the way to do that is to get some of the brilliant basics right. Which means really good, creative, really strong media plans that index heavily on scale-based channels like CTV. We did a lot of TV, we've been in podcasting, audio. When we [00:12:00] think of the 'see, think, do' framework, really focusing on the ‘see' to build new audiences and build that upper funnel. Damian: That's an incredible statistic you just shared about doubling sales last year of Defender, and that's through brand, sort of brand building. Charlotte: Indeed, as well as physical experiential activations, as well is a big part of our marketing mix. We host every year the Destination Defender Festival, which grows each year. We have an incredible cause marketing platform for Defender called the Defender Service Awards, which gives us a platform to showcase the capability and off road and durability of the car in context of these really emotional lifestyle stories. So we invite very local grassroots charities who need a vehicle that can take them to difficult places. We invite them to submit video applications for a chance to win a Defender, and then we invite consumers to vote. Last year we had over half a million votes in a very grassroots approach, and this year we're looking [00:13:00] already to surpass that. And that just gives us a wealth of content and opportunity to make a difference, and to really establish a platform that's authentic and organic for the brand. So I think those sort of higher touch, authentic, steps are important as a foundation, but then also just to really blast out building awareness through big traditional media has helped as well. Damian: That seems like that, that's sped up, maybe, is it? All of you got sped up.  Charlotte:  I mean, we truly last year we called it the year of ~Defender, Defender,~ Defender. No joke. It was ~kind~ of all systems go on defender. We were, it was really motivating and really exciting because we had such a clear vision of what we needed to do to differentiate and really break defender onto the scene. So it was just a galvanizing kind of experience to just go all in on this one brand. This year we've got to be able to, walk and chew gum at the same time. We're back to focusing on multiples. Ilyse: at those like cultural and like sporting events and having a big presence at some of those. How much is that really part of your strategy and which, I guess, which cultural events have you really found yourself being? Charlotte: Yeah. That's a very topical question for us. Experiential marketing, I think, gives us a way to really bring the brand to life in a way that transcends the product and makes people feel like they're part of a community. So a great example is Range Rover house, ~um,~ for Range Rover, that's now a global lifestyle platform. We now do Range Rover houses everywhere from. Damian: started Ilyse: But Charlotte: to Dubai, Cormier, you name it, but it started here in the U. S. in Monterey around, ~um,~ Damian: around Monterey. Charlotte: Pebble Beach around Monterey car week.  and we do it every year in that location at that event, as well as,  Salt Lake City at, Park City, and a few other locations. And basically, the idea is that we'll take over a private residence or building that [00:15:00] matches the design aesthetic of Range Rover and curate these exquisite, really luxury crafted experiences for our clients and prospects and partners. And we do that in partnership with other luxury brands to offer. For example, ~uh,~ rare spirit tastings, or a luxury facial, ~um,~ early access to a new fashion launch. ~Um,~ so we'll curate something different each time to keep it fresh. But the idea, it's been fun for the team to use as almost~ a,~ a filter or a thought exercise of, if Range Rover the brand were a house, What would it smell like? What would the furniture look like? What would you eat there? Who would be there? you can kind of stretch your imagination to bring the brand to life in a way that, transcends the product. And we'll have a special product edition each time. That's also a part of the strategy where we'll release a limited count of a special Range Rover. That's only 17 of them are made. And it Retails for 350, 000 and only those [00:16:00] who are in person have a chance to, have the first look. So that gives it sort of a press hook, ~um,~ and an extra kind of commercial reason to attend. But really the experience we hear more and more from our clients is that I feel like I'm part of a club, an exclusive society. ~You know,~ I'm a Range Rover person and that means that I get to do this and I get to meet and mingle with other life's leaders. We call them in the Range Rover community.  Damian: not every automaker can claim that they're able to kind of, like, create a club of like minded members. I know many would probably think that they can, but there's something special about JLR in that way. And I know we touched on this already, but one of those factors, I guess, that plays into the branding and the association is the British connection. You mentioned the ad, but could you say a little bit more about that and how that is Something that you use or not use, especially in the U. S. market, which is what you're in charge. Charlotte: [00:17:00] Yeah, such an interesting question for the U. S. market. ~Um,~ We have a couple of very current examples, I think, to this effect. One is that we have the blessing of having access to this curated collection of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, her cars, basically the classic Land Rover product that she either drove or was escorted in, throughout her regime. And we have a beautiful collection of 10 of those vehicles that have been painted. painstakingly perfectly restored, and we debuted them globally at Pebble Beach this year. So it was the very first time that an SUV was displayed on the Pebble Beach Concourse, which I was surprised by. That was a really unique moment. That was a really special thing. So we got a lot of press and breakthrough for that moment. And a lot of just fan activity. There are a lot of classic Land Rover Range Rover fans. So now we're taking those vehicles on tour and we'll have them at Rockefeller center with a very British themed experience. It's all about the Royal family. So we'll have sort [00:18:00] of a tour. British, ~you know,~ other partners there and sort of a British feel. ~Um,~ but when you see the cars, ~you know,~ there's even these little touches like a special spot for the corgis to sit or the special hook for the Queen's handbag. ~Um,~ so that is a moment that's really making us stop and appreciate the British heritage and celebrate that in a more public way than we had recently. but a funny story we were just catching up about earlier when I spoke about the Theo James commercial. It's called Velocity Blue is the campaign. We made some edits for a U. S. version of the TV spot, which will start airing  that essentially streamlined the story to be a little bit more simple, with a little more car shot, a little more action, which kind of captures a lot of, like, the U. S. feedback. When we have our creative debates and discussions internally, most of the creative origination happens at the global headquarters in the U. K., It rolls out to the major markets. We give our feedback. There's a process that's probably very similar at other global companies, and the script tends to go something like the English version is a bit [00:19:00] more abstract, has a little more storytelling, has a lot going on, and the U. S. wants to see Simple. Hit me with the logo. More car shots. Get to it. People are busy. There's a lot to break through and there's always  a cheeky debate about that. But, this time, they actually created a slightly different version for the U. S. Same spot, really, but with a key difference that, that simplified it and removed a scene in the middle that had, you know, an equestrian riding across the property you described. And we just got the test results back and they were fascinating to see. We worked with Kantar to do sort of the initial assessment of how both the UK and the US audiences resonate with each of these two options. And we found that indeed we were correct about the US that the simplified spot without the equestrian, outperforms the original version for U.S. audiences, but fascinatingly, in the U. K., the reverse is true. So that gave us such an interesting, and frankly, a positive outcome that was, gets us [00:20:00] away from any kind of creative disagreements and is much more about honoring these market specific differences. And just isn't that interesting, that people have different expectations of advertising or different understanding of, the content of this particular spot. So it's just an important reminder to global brands to keep the core insight true, but to make those tweaks to really optimize for each market. Damian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. I mean, keep the horse. I say keep the horse. Ilyse: I mean, I'm an American, right? And I think it's, I think the UK version is better, Charlotte:  Ifyou know just keep it simple. Yeah, but it's so interesting, those insights like that fascinating.  Charlotte: live for them. I mean, I think that's what marketing is all about is the consumer insight. Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. Damian: And remember,  Charlotte: especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really ~ build that love in people's [00:21:00] hearts. And it, for many people starts early. Damian: I'm Damian. Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Gopuff's Daniel Folkman joins The Current Podcast to explore the company's philosophy, what differentiates Gopuff's retail media network and how the platform's unique proposition could help it capture incremental retail media dollars.

The beverage brand's former CMO, which holds drinks like Aperol, breaks down why events like Coachella, the US Open and Cannes Film Festival are so important to its marketing strategy. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Julka Villa, the former Global CMO of Campari Group. [00:00:11] Damian: Founded in 1860, Campari is a household name in the global spirits industry with a portfolio of over 50 brands across world markets. [00:00:20] We're talking familiar names like Aperol, Sky Vodka, Wild Turkey Bourbon, and Courvoisier. [00:00:27] Ilyse: Julka is a marketing veteran with over 25 years of experience in the alcoholic beverage and beauty industries. A specialist in consumer focused brands. [00:00:37] Damian: Julka is responsible for the marketing vision, strategy, and execution of the Campari Group's brands. [00:00:44] At the same time, she has a bird's eye view of the company's worldwide presence, coordinating teams based in Milan, Paris, and New York. [00:00:52] Ilyse: We started by asking her about how she balances the Campari legacy with keeping its brands relevant for today's [00:01:00] consumers. [00:01:02] Damian: So Campari has a rich heritage. The company is now 164 years old. How do you go about balancing its legacy, the preservation of its legacy while keeping the brand modern and relevant for today's consumers? [00:01:18] Julka: I think that, if we go back to the roots of the Campari brand, about being [00:01:23] bold, about being visionary about investing in arts, think about Europe, Italy in the second half of the 19th century. There were so, few brands really investing Campari was one of the first really interacting with artists [00:01:42] and designers and giving them the freedom to, the brand in the way they saw it. if you look at how we started, you how we moved forward along our, our history. You can see that, the [00:02:00] twenties and thirties of last we start cooperating with cinema, really asking the people, working in the industries and producing the movies, postcards, producing, you know, designs and drawings for us. [00:02:16] You can see that, fast forward, to the eighties. We start cooperating with one of the greatest filmmakers. In the world, Federico Fellini, that was a big fan of the Campari brand. He was drinking Campari and he decided to cooperate with us to produce an advertising for the brand. And Fellini was the first filmmaker we cooperated with. But then, we kept this partnership, for instance, with Paolo Sorrentino 2017. And I was personally You know, working with him, it was a fantastic experience to see an artist really bringing to life, the brand, [00:03:00] respecting the legacy, but at the same time, renovating, since you're asking me how a brand modern still loyal to its root, it was amazing to see how we could kept the daring, attitude of the brand alive. According to his own style.  [00:03:20] Ilyse: Wow,that is super cool. so is pop culture still as important to the brand even today?  [00:03:27] Julka: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, and this is so important for the Campari brand, but for many other brands part of our portfolio, just for you to know, we have more than 50 brands. in our portfolio, and if you'd like we can talk about some of them, but when it, comes to Campari, think about the fact that our partnership with arts, have been, more recently renovated in our, cooperation with the major film festivals, in the world. We, are [00:04:00] partners of the Cannes Film the Locarno, in Berlinale. weclosed the first, year of partnership with the Toronto Film that's definitely a modern way to the brand, extremely aspirational, but still to get in touch with so many consumers and possible advocates of the brand. One of the things we really care about is not just to communicate our brands, but to assure our consumer to consume our brands throughout the signature cocktails in the best way possible and definitely feel festival for us are a huge opportunity to provide liquid tulips, as we say, to our consumers current and future.  [00:04:47] Damian: What's interesting is with these different brands, you're sort of talking about how they're valued differently in different markets. that's very interesting to me. How do you know and prioritize [00:05:00] which brands work best in which countries?  [00:05:04] Julka: We have, well identified, what we call the global brands. The brands that should be built everywhere in the world. Of course step by step and respecting the life stages, the brand is in a specific geography. And definitely the one I mentioned so far, are global brands. And so also global priorities, for the company. And then, depending on the area of the world, the characteristics of the market and the consumers, each individual, operating company, can, compose, portfolio, to have the best performance on the market. But definitely there are priorities everybody to focus  [00:05:51] Damian: if you think about the United States, is there a sort of priority? [00:05:55] Julka: Yeah,  [00:05:56] Damian: Leading brand here. [00:05:58] Julka: definitely, [00:06:00] uh, the priority for the United our giant aperitif brands, such as Campari Aperol, Grand Manier, Wild Turkey, Espolon, and of course, the local team is really excited to rebuild the Courvoisier brand. always acquisition we have just finalized. [00:06:21] Damian: Yeah, each of those brands has its own kind of, whole kind of narrative around them, I imagine. But I wanted to ask you actually a little bit about, The current moment that we're in, which we're seeing a kind of a lot of debate around alcohol versus no alcohol consumption, particularly when it comes to like Gen Z demographics. I mean, how do you think about and navigate these perception shifts?  [00:06:47] Julka: That's a very that's a very interesting question. And of course, as you can imagine, we have been spending a lot of time and resources really to dig deep into these shift and [00:07:00] transformation in a way of our consumer ships. One thing that is not that evident to, to everybody is that differently from the past, there is a sort of coexistence of, people drinking alcoholic products and non alcoholic products, depending on the moment they are in, the people they are with, what they have to do the day after. [00:07:23] And this kind of consciousness and, control on what to choose is even stronger in younger consumers as you were mentioned so they are more conscious they don't they are not you know afraid to make a choice that could be out of  [00:07:43] their are pool of friends. Everybody's drinking something alcoholic There's no problem at all for one of them to say “Look tomorrow I have to wake up very early I have a very important day I prefer to, to opt for a choice, a non alcoholic choice.” So more than a counter position [00:08:00] today, we see the coexistence, of these kind of choices, which is quite interesting, honestly, also because it gives us the opportunity to be more, mindful and, intentional in developing also the part of our portfolio, which is non alcoholic. For instance, we have a product which is an extremely strong product in Italy and definitely in a phase of conquering of continental Europe is, the name of the product is Crodino and is definitely our non alcoholic, kind of spritz. is a product that was invented and launched in the market, in 1965. [00:08:39] So this is a little bit a testament, to the personality of the company, wanting really to push boundaries. And actually we are preparing the launch of these fantastic product also in the U S, that we plan for next year.  [00:08:54] Ilyse: So it sounds like Campari really anticipated this trend of non alcoholic [00:09:00] beverages in a sense.  [00:09:02] Julka: Yeah, that's, that's correct. That's correct.  [00:09:05] Damian: I'm just curious on that point, you know, as a marketer, you must get lots of data back in terms of like, who's drinking what, maybe by generation, maybe by geography even. I'm interested to know, do you kind of look at that in terms of strategizing and find the discrete markets?  [00:09:24] Julka: even if, with the passing of the years, what we, really is of people. So demographics are not, gender or age brackets are not the main elements we look for because what really counts. Today is the mindset and the attitude of people, for instance, if I think about a product like Aperol with these with its signature cocktail, Aperol can see across generations drinking this product and across age brackets is the mindset. [00:09:57] And you would be amazed how people approaching Aperol [00:10:00] Spritz, enjoying Aperol Spritz, they really have in common, the way they appreciate life and what they are looking for in that specific moment. Either they are, 25 or 60. So there are also, a number of cross generational, alcoholic beverage experiences, and so the way we look at data is really about the motivation and the attitude of people when they are about to make a choice.  [00:10:27] Ilyse: Yeah, that kind of, shift towards mindset over demographics probably helps a lot when it comes to just I guess prioritizing channels for the brand and where to reach those audiences because I know in a lot of the times like Millennials and Gen Zers are in like social media and usually that's not an option when it comes to alcohol brands, is, so is the brand finding other channels to be just as effective, in reaching that kind of mindset that it's [00:11:00] after. [00:11:00] Julka: when, I think a strong, distinctive characteristic Of our marketing and activation strategies, really investing very seriously in, in events, because definitely there's a lot of will among consumers of all ages, really to leave, events, in person really experience, on their, skin, much more than in the past. [00:11:24] and then we amplify, if you want, through social media, those events. But, a big part of our investment. is really, put on organizing, these kind of events. When we, when it comes to the U. S., think about Coachella, which is, more than a music festival, is a lifestyle festival, as we all know. [00:11:43] Think about the U. S. Open. uh, but also if we go on the other side of the world, in the APAC region, think about, The Australian Open, which is for us a, opportunity to reach so many consumers. about [00:12:00] hundreds of thousands live offering our best signature cocktail in our, fantastic lounger and then we can definitely amplify this content on a number of social media where. alcoholic beverage can, have a direct relationship, with their consumers. So for us, it's always a mix. we really believe that we have winning products, very straightforward drinking strategy, and that's why we care so these to life in real life for we don't see this business as happening just, just virtually. Definitely.  [00:12:42] How do you kind of maintain and sort of keep tabs, as it were, on people who are loyal to the brands that you market? [00:12:52] definitely over the yearsWe invested and we improved, our, CRM, capacity, so [00:13:00] throughout, social media and massively through events, we gather as much as possible information about our consumers so that, we can definitely keep them, up to date. On our, yearly, program, but also we can establish a more direct dialogue. [00:13:18] Sometimes we consult them, a part of them for new projects. we listen to them, ask them questions about, trends, want to know more and I think that, especially when it comes to a lab important. [00:13:39] Feel part of a feel, really listen to is something as important as enjoying your favorite, brand and your [00:13:50] Damian: And what's interesting to me is I was thinking about this because about, maybe 12 years ago, I have a friend from Venice who lives in New York and we went to a [00:14:00] restaurant and she ordered an Aperol and at that, point it wasn't very, nobody really knew much about it here. [00:14:06] And since then, of course, it's huge. It's like a probably one of the most popular, cocktails around. I was just at the U. S. Open in the summer and I could see, your your [00:14:16] plaza there with Aperol everywhere. I guess it was, there's a sponsor, a partnership  [00:14:20] Julka: Mm hmm.  [00:14:21] Damian: But my question is, how did you could you walk us through how you, built that awareness from, that moment, however many years ago when it wasn't such a big, obviously big in Venice, she said it was the Venetian drink. [00:14:34] So I was like, Oh, that's interesting. [00:14:39] Julka: yes, I am. 10, 12 years ago, not only in the U. S., but in many other places outside Europe, definitely it was not established. you know, staple it is to die. and at the very beginning, we really faced, some very basic, difficulties. I have to say, it was not easy, to start [00:15:00] talking about, a signature cocktail that, needed, a bottle of Prosecco to be open, to be prepared because. [00:15:07] You know, if you are familiar with sparkly wines, the problem with it is that if you open it and you use just a little part and then you keep the bottle for a couple of days, the carbonation will just, yes, go away. So it was really. a very precise, consistent, and stubborn work of education. [00:15:28] There's just one certainty about education, which is that, you know, when you started that you will never know when you will finish. And actually it's a never ending story in a way. So we, in the past we put, and we keep putting a lot of, effort and an investment in educating the trade the bartenders bar owners But also the final consumers because at the end if the final consumer knows [00:15:52] the best way to prepare an upper spritz They will be your advocate and it happened to me so many times in the past [00:16:00] when I was receiving at the table in upper spritz that was not preparing the way It should have been, I was going back to the bar and I was saying there's something wrong with my cocktail. [00:16:13] it's a double, a double direction  [00:16:16] Julka: Yeah,  [00:16:18] efforts. And, Also, a very important part is, what we call, the oil spill approach. What does it mean? We start with the city, a major city, we start with the specific neighbors. and key on trade outlets in this neighbor. [00:16:39] We build a relationship of partnership. We invest on these venues and we create the phenomenon of the cocktail and then we expand. So distribution and presence comes just [00:16:52] after having started trend with a very high level, of the serve in a smaller [00:17:00] number of venues. [00:17:01] This, has been the approach in the U. S. and in every other part of the world. You mentioned Venice, which is the place where the brand really, started being known and appreciated and, recognized as, the champion of aperitif. But the phenomenon of Aperol Spritz started in Venice, expanded to the Veneto region, which is the region of Venice, and then expanded Milan and from Milan to the rest of Italy. [00:17:28] So the oil spill approach, as we call it, has always been, front and center of the strategy, of, And it's building.  [00:17:38] Ilyse: So interesting. when you think of Campari brands, it also sorts of implies Like a level of sophistication. in a sense, are marketing just drinks or is it something more, I don't know, like lifestyle?  [00:17:53] Julka: definitely. I think that,our brands are starting from, The most important ones really [00:18:00] stand for a certain lifestyle. you think about campari, it really represents the Milan. And, the lifestyle of the city. If you, think about aperol, you're talking about a more democratic sort of brand, really more casual. welcome. and, So they, [00:18:21] reflect a way of living and today even more important. If you think about the trend of escapism, traveling without traveling. I need a break. I need a moment for myself of real enjoyment with my friends. [00:18:36] brands like this, and they are signature cocktail, let's say Aperol Spritz for Aperol, Negroni, for instance, for Campari makes you really full for half hour, one hour you're spending with your friends in another place. So they really stand for a way of living for a place and for a moment in life where you really, recharge your batteries and, [00:19:00] you dedicate really a true moment to yourself.  [00:19:03] Julka: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:19:05] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:19:08] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:19:15] Damian: Cairns. And remember,  [00:19:16] Julka: we really believe that we have winning products, and that's why we care so these to life we don't see this business as happening just virtually.  [00:19:29] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:19:30] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:19:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Samsung's Olga Suvorova sat down with The Current Podcast to discuss engaging with Gen Z audiences, balancing omnichannel strategies and tapping into cultural trends. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:12] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Olga Suvarova, the VP of Mobile Experience Marketing at Samsung. [00:00:18] Olga has recently overseen the launch of new Galaxy foldable phones and family of new wearables powered by Galaxy AI, a watch, buds, and a new smart Galaxy Ring.  [00:00:35] On a recent LinkedIn post, Olga wrote, “We are reimagining how we create, interact, work out, communicate, stay healthy, multitask, travel, capture ordinary and extraordinary with Galaxy AI.” [00:00:47] That, sort of, almost sums up the human experience. [00:00:51] Ilyse: So much of phone tech is tied up with culture, and that's where we start. [00:00:55] Damian: So Olga, we know culture plays a large role in smartphone sales. Do you think this is even more true today?  [00:01:04] Absolutely. Phones, smartphones, wearables, tablets are such an important part of people's lives. More so than it has ever been. So we're thinking about not just driving sales and connecting to culture, but understanding what are the cultural spaces, what are the nuggets of interest that are resonating with our consumers and how can we build experiences specifically for that? [00:01:33] Whether it's the new ways to create things thanks to Galaxy Eye, whether it's the new ways to track your health and sleep and overall wellness, or a completely reimagined experience of productivity and work. [00:01:50] Damian: And as you said in that LinkedIn post, the phone is connected to all these different aspects of our lives. That's kind of mind blowing when you think about it. [00:01:58] So, you know, you, talk about [00:02:00] culture and it's very interesting to me that culture and pop culture in particular is so connected to the idea of smartphone sales. [00:02:09] I mean, it's a fashion item as much as a, you know, a utility item. How do you tap into sort of current trends and fashions? And how do you tie that to marketing the phones and the wearables, indeed?  [00:02:24] Absolutely, and because smartphones are at the center of what we do every single day, whether it's more of a utility or truly fun and delightful experiences, we have always been big on driving partnerships and collaboration with like minded change makers and incredible players within different cultural spaces. [00:02:46] And fashion is one of the greatest examples because when we think about technology and fashion. At the core of both is this relentless drive of inspiration and creativity and [00:03:00] self expression. So just recently, we've built an entire partnership around New York Fashion Week, partnering with an incredible designer, LeQuan Smith, and working with him to put the smartphone and the smart ring, so foldable phone, fold six, and the galaxy ring at the core of his creative experiences. [00:03:25] And redesigning and reimagining what it could be and launching an entire new collection that we called Lucid Dreams by LeQuan Smith. But what was very exciting about it is not only finding a way to build something incredible together, like this new collection, but also watching and getting inspired by LeQuan using  our incredible Samsung Galaxy technology, including Galaxy I throughout the process. So for example, Live Translate and Kohl's being automatically translated in over 15 languages [00:04:00] that he used to drive a lot of conversations with partners and vendors around the world. [00:04:06] Ilyse: Now I want to get into how you think about your audiences. As you said, everybody uses a smartphone these days. Obviously there's a lot of focus on reaching Gen Z audiences who are, to put it, lightly less than brand loyal sometimes. How do you appeal to these potential customers through your exploration of culture? [00:04:27] Olga: It's definitely not a one size fits all approach. And the ways they behave and where they spend their time could be different than other audiences. And we think about all those elements as we design different experiences. [00:04:51] We're not just trying to target them with the same ads, no matter how amazing they are, as we would do with like the other [00:05:00] demographics. and that's why, when it comes to Gen Z and engaging them, deploying other strategies comes into play. for example, We've built an entire ecosystem of team Galaxy creators that are fantastic at building relationships versus trying to transact with that audience, and they are the champions of our brand, but they also the incredible connector to what those audiences care about and help us build that meaningful conversation with them. [00:05:30] Ilyse: What about outside of, say, social media? Because we're really living in like an omnichannel world now. How do you layer in different channels when it comes to your strategy, and how do you balance brand awareness and then performance?  [00:05:45] Olga: I know there is a lot being talked about brand awareness versus performance, but I really like to think about it as not one versus the other. Brand drive performance. And it's about building that puzzle [00:06:00] together and finding how different pieces come into play. And for us, it's really building this omni channel approach, and it's not just the social media. [00:06:09] It's building that reach ecosystem off experiential activations, partnerships, tapping into influencers, thinking about how can we create media worthy moments. So for example, Team Galaxy Creator Collective is one of the ways we drive that relationship and engagement. Building a lot of conversation and community engagement in our social channels plays a huge role. [00:06:35] Experiential and partner activations, whether it's New York Fashion Week or our partnership with Red Bull, and reimagining how we show up at incredible first female competitions like Magnitude or a cliff diving or something else incredible. [00:06:52] Damian: mean, one of the challenges of your job is to stay on top of the fast moving, nature of culture. You have to be responsive. And I [00:07:00] think one of the most brilliant illustrations of that was earlier this year when, there was a certain ad that was that rolled out called, crushed where creative tools were being smashed into a tablet. [00:07:10] And Samsung had a quick responds with an ad called Uncrushed. Could you talk a little bit about that, that moment and what happened there and how you responded and generally about how you need to be sort of quick on your feet when it comes to being a marketer [00:07:25] Olga: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it comes down to a combination of being very clear about what you stand for as a brand and what your reason for being is, and being quick and nimble and constantly evolving to be at the center of that conversation. [00:07:43] And for us, when that, um, competitive ad came out, that was pretty much against everything we stand for. Which is open innovation and forcing and fueling the creativity and self expression on people's terms. And that's why for us it [00:08:00] wasn't just a rebuttal, but it was a very thoughtful It was a very, very quick response to, even though very, very quick articulation and expression of what we hold near and dear to our heart and championing that incredible community of creative people, and that's why we call that response and crash. [00:08:15] It wasn't a campaign plan for months. it was a very quick response. it went on social because it was so true and authentic and because it was executed in a very quick manner, we were able to garner. A lot of response and a lot of coverage without actually spending any money on it. [00:08:34] Damian: That's amazing. Do you think sometimes those quick response, campaigns, if you like, or ads, in some ways, are kind of more unexpected ads, are more, what's the word? effective in some ways than ones that may have taken a long time to plan. [00:08:48] Olga: It's probably a combination of both because I don't want to say don't plan, go with the flow and try to do everything within 48 hours. I wouldn't recommend that. But as you said, [00:09:00] The brand's ability to stay current and to stay top of mind for consumers is being constantly in tune with what consumers are doing and what they care about and what's happening in the competitive environments and what is top of mind for people. [00:09:17] So it's probably a combination of both and that what defines the brands that are able to champion what they stand for in a way that never loses authenticity and relevance. [00:09:28] Ilyse: Originally I saw a lot of backlash when it first out. Did you look at that backlash at all? Or was it something that you weren't even paying attention to and you just wanted to jump on it regardless? [00:09:40] Olga: wanted to be very much focused not only on what we're against, but what we're for. And that's what drove that response. We are about creativity, we are about open innovation, we are about celebrating the expression, and we're about pushing boundaries [00:10:00] rather than crushing everything underneath that. So that was probably as important, if not more important than trying to think what people are pulling apart around that original ad. [00:10:11] Ilyse: in a world where there's two operating systems, okay, you have iOS and Android. How do you view the competition in the space? Is it one system versus another? Or is it all about the product? [00:10:25] Olga: Well, at the core of the Samsung mobile brand has been this idea and ethos of openness and open innovation and collaboration and building the products and experiences and the ecosystem of products that pushes away the boundaries that might be forced on those products and ultimately deliver subpar experience. [00:10:47] So for us, it's relentless focus on delivering that. Open innovation, and that comes through how we build products, how we design those experiences, how we partner with like minded change makers in the [00:11:00] industry to really reimagine what those experiences are. Products could be whether it's partnering with Google to build circle to search, incredible functionality or Qualcomm or Microsoft for us. [00:11:12] The fewer barriers there are in the world, the further we can all go. The more we can drive towards that truly accessible, equitable, representative world and human innovation. So I would say I like to think about it not as a competition per se, but, What is our enemy? And oftentimes the enemy is the barriers and complacency and the inertia that exists within the industry or within the consumer behavior. [00:11:43] And how do we build not only the product experiences, but also incredible marketing messages and campaigns to really shake that up and drive towards progress. [00:11:56] Ilyse: Now when you're marketing, and especially when it comes to like [00:12:00] new products and new pieces of technology, what would you say is a sell for a new piece of tech? So is it the technology itself or is it looking at the tech and how it can enhance creativity for that user? [00:12:14] Olga: One hundred percent the latter one. It's all about it's never about technology and the conversation. We started with is smartphones and tablets and the mobile experiences being at the core of what we do every single day. So our focus, even with the latest launch earlier this year of Galaxy AI, has been how do we showcase what it could do for people, whether it's sketching AI photo editing, whether it's communicating across boundaries, because you have this wonderful life translated. [00:12:48] you know, reimagining your capability or reimagining how your earbuds connect to your phone and your tablet in a very, very seamless way. So it's all about what you can [00:13:00] do with it, whether it is something to help you save time or it's truly for fun. [00:13:05] Damian: fun. Now that brings us to the question of A. I. And the integration of A. I. Into new phones. And that for sure is a hot topic right now. And it's not just phones, of course. Could we talk a little bit about, you know, your thoughts on A. [00:13:19] I. On and the marketing of the products that you there on your watch? A. [00:13:26] Olga: and Galaxy Eye that we introduced in January and since then rolled out across the portfolio of our mobile products is not just a fancy and flashy new feature. It's truly at the core of where technology is going and how we can make it more accessible. More exciting, more delightful, more useful to our consumers. [00:13:48] And we see that in how they have been using that technology. Right now there are over a hundred million devices. All around the world that have been using [00:14:00] Galaxy AI. We know that just in the US alone, within a week, there are [00:14:05] Damian: are 78 [00:14:06] Olga: 78 million of instances when people are using those Galaxy AI features. And that's an incredible consumer response that tells us we're in the right track and we're building something that people love, that people find value in, and that helps us get more ideas for how we can innovate further. [00:14:24] Ilyse: You know, on that note, you are a big proponent of brand love and, and really diving into what I guess makes consumers keep coming back to a brand. Why would you say it's important to generate that kind of buzz around a brand? [00:14:45] Olga: It's really important to keep being relevance and being meaningful to consumers. It's important for people to feel something about your brand and in order to build and nurture that brand [00:15:00] love. We need to be very, very clear about what is that reason for being? What do we want to be remembered for, known for? [00:15:09] How do we want to make people feel? And on the other hand, continue to constantly evolve based on what people are telling us. Being open to it, having the desire, having the drive to really, keep reinventing ourselves without ever losing that core and that ethos of our brand. And for us, it's always been that idea of openness and open innovation and relentless pursuit of breaking barriers and pushing boundaries.  [00:15:40] Ilyse: So, Olga, how do you layer in different channels when it comes to your overall strategy? [00:15:46] Olga: It's a combination of different channels that help us in a very personalized way reach Diverse communities and audiences from the demographic from the psychographic perspective, so we think about our [00:16:00] universe, including online video advertising, because that creates the opportunity to be extremely targeted and very measurable. [00:16:10] We also deploy, um, a lot of our advertising through programmatic ads by similarity. It allows a lot of precision and a lot of scale, but we also layer in different approaches to social media platforms. So, for example, how we build for platforms with matter is different for, uh, What we do with snap and spotify and twitch, which again allows us to show up in a consistent way, but in a more relevant and tailored approach, obviously, that all is connected to the work that we do through our partnerships, through our influencer work and a lot of our experiential and out of home media.  [00:16:51] Damian: I have to ask you though we mentioned at the top the Galaxy AI ring, you're wearing it. Can you tell us a little about it?  [00:16:59] Olga: a [00:17:00] huge fan. I can't get enough of it. It's an incredible piece of technology. Again, it's powered by Galaxy AI, and it's an incredible device that allows you to track your sleep patterns, your health, your energy score. [00:17:16] So it tells you basically how you are doing, what you could be doing differently to feel better, gives you What we call wellness tips, and it's perfectly connected to your other devices, whether it's watch or the Samsung Galaxy phone, so you can actually get obsessed about those metrics. I have to say, I haven't been the healthiest person, according to this ring, but I have tons of wellness tips to get me to a better place. [00:17:40] Damian: That's great to hear. Well, thank you so much for speaking with us.   [00:17:46] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:17:48] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:17:51] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. And remember,  [00:17:59] Olga: We are [00:18:00] about creativity, we are about open innovation, we are about celebrating the expression, and we're about pushing boundaries rather than crushing everything underneath that. [00:18:11] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:18:12] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:18:13] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report. 

The founder and CEO of The Trade Desk, Jeff Green, talks about the evolution of the premium internet, his obsession with the ad tech supply chain and why the connected TV (CTV) ecosystem is ready for an upgrade.Green explains why The Trade Desk is launching Ventura, a streaming TV operating system, named after the California beach town, to improve the CTV ecosystem for publishers, advertisers and consumers.__________The Current is owned and operated by The Trade Desk Inc.

Toby Espinosa, the VP of DoorDash ads, reflects on the tremendous growth of the delivery platform, saying the key to this is local businesses. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian: [00:00:00] I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse LiffreingDamian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Toby Espinoza, the VP of DoorDash Ads.Damian: And Toby is responsible for connecting brands, local and national, to the more than 37 million customers who place orders on DoorDash marketplaces each month.Ilyse: At this point, DoorDash is a household name, no pun intended. It has more than 7 million couriers delivering orders for DoorDash from around 550, 000 merchants.Damian: Hard to believe that the company was founded just over 10 years ago in 2013. And Toby joined the company in 2015. So he's seen DoorDash go from strength to strength.Naturally, we start by asking him about how the company has changed over the last decade.Ilyse: So Toby, DoorDash celebrated its 10th anniversary last year. And I, I remember when you guys launched, I would just say, because I was like a hungry college student at the time.And it was like, perfect timing to get [00:01:00] anything delivered to my dormToby: And where were you?Ilyse: In San Francisco.Toby: Francisco? No way. Oh, awesome.Ilyse: was like, yeah, it was like I was in the right place at the right time for sure. Yes. And, so how would you say has the company evolved from a food delivery platform to the platform it is today?Toby: When I joined the company, we were in 4, 5 metros.And we were completely focused on one product in four or five markets. And back in 2015 when I joined the food delivery market, as you remember, seamless reigned supreme in New York. Grubhub was in Chicago and everywhere else food delivery was pizza: Domino's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut. And a few local restaurants that were able to afford having couriers. The market, everybody thought, was saturated. We entered, the company had a thesis that the market itself, given the advent of mobile technology, we believed that [00:03:00] if you took this device, this mobile device, where now a dasher had a mobile phone, a consumer had a mobile phone, and actually restaurants had access to this mobile superhighway, that if we connected all of them, there would be a larger opportunity for growth.Growth being the key word there, because as much as DoorDash has changed over the last 10 years, we have gone from a one product, one market business to a multiple product, multiple geography business, with 37 million monthly active users, over 15 million monthly active subscribers to our platform.If you go back to our founding story, Tony, Stanley and Andy, when they started DoorDash, walked down University Avenue in Palo Alto and they went from store to store asking every local business, how can I help you grow? That was the founding question. It wasn't can I build a logistics network, it wasn't, can I build an ad business? It was, “Hey, how can I help you grow?” And the opportunity they found was let's do a restaurant oriented delivery network for everybody across suburban markets. And that's what took off.Ilyse: How would you say that growth has like translated on the ads marketplace side of things? Toby: Yeah.The hard part about building something at the scale that DoorDash [00:05:00] operates is the consumer side. Building a consumer promise and then making that promise better and better and better every day, getting faster and cheaper, that is actually the harder part to find.Product market fit from a consumer perspective. Once we have that, and once we have that, we want to continue to compound that over and over and over againAbout four, four years ago, five years ago, our merchants and so stores within our ecosystem raised their hand and started to ask us, “Hey, do you have any tools to help me grow even faster?” That's how the ad business started. It was a it's very fundamental. It's a core to who we are. It's a growth business. We have customers who want to grow [00:06:00] faster. And what we then tried to figure out was how can we help serve this promise for these customers while also helping our marketplace continue to grow?So the best way to do that is to align incentives, uh, show us the incentive, and we'll show you the outcome that we're driving towards.Our AD team is incentivized both by driving incremental return from a spend perspective for advertisers, as well as driving incremental volume for our consumer marketplace, which is very different than most advertising platforms. Most advertising houses, you have product and tech on one side driving growth, and you have ads trying to monetize it on the other side. We wanted to bring those together to make sure we were able to continue to grow on both sides and serve our customers best. Damian: And cut to date to this rise of, spectacular rise of retail media, which of course is one of the hottest topics right now in our space. DoorDash of course has built its own retail media network in recent years. Could you talk a little bit about how you took some of those concepts you just talked about and built the network?Toby: Yeah, absolutely. So we, again we wanted to be completely aligned with the customer. So the first customer that we started to think about was the SMB owner operator restaurant that we all know, that's in our town.In San Francisco, it's Suvla. In New York, it's Electric Burrito. These places that, these brands [00:08:00] that we are absolutely in love with. What we quickly realize is that person, that customer, there's two fundamental things that are very difficult.The first is that they have to be an expert at 15 different things So, if we own a local restaurant, a local retailer, We have to be great at real estate. We have to be great at marketing. We have to be great at financials. We have to be great at accounting. We have to be great at customer service. We have to be great at creating a great product, which is food, right?And so when we look at this core customer, they're supposed to be an expert at 15 different things Our job is to go after one of those. And make sure that they don't have to think about that growth as [00:09:00] much as they used to by putting a little bit of the burden of that growth on our shoulders. What that means in practice when we launched the business for for SMB customers, we focused on building an economic model that worked for them. Last week, in San Francisco, I went and picked up a salad. at, at one of my favorite, favorite places. And there was a restaurant right next door that had just opened a month in. A month in, and nobody in his restaurant.Completely empty. Maybe three or four people in a, in, that could otherwise have a capacity of 50. And I went online and I looked. He was running advertising across a bunch of different channels that we all know. Snap, Google, Meta, etc.This person was in the red month day one of the month.It's one of the hardest things in this country. These small businesses that start [00:10:00] negative every single month. And on top of that, they also had to layer in more spend on Google and meta to try to get out of that hole.We took the premise of we want to be your growth assistant and we took the premise of it's really, really hard. for you to basically grow your business without having to also add more money into this negative cash cycle.And we said, let's build a product where you do not have to pay us unless you get an order.So unless we send you money, you do not have to pay us. And those two things together have helped us build one of the fastest growing retail media networks, particularly focused on a customer that was completely underserved. Damian: Could you talk about, a little bit more about how you [00:11:00] kind of expanded those relationships with both the national brands, tying that into the local, the business works at a local level fundamentally.Toby: So in the restaurant space. The vast, vast majority of restaurants on Main Street are local. Even if you are a McDonald's franchisee, so you have one of the largest brands, you're a, you're a small business owner.Really, the, the Starbucks, the Chipotles of the world that are corporately owned restaurants at scale are actually the smallest. They're the 10%, not the 90 percent in the U. S. And so our ad product designed on a CPA based level where we can be the growth assistant for all these owner operators is really for the 90.It's built for the majority. Um, that being said, we also just launched, uh, last week the our new product, which is our ad manager and our [00:12:00] ad manager for the enterprise restaurant segment is designed actually to help both the C. M. O. Of McDonald's and the owner operator franchisee within the system. And the way that we've done that is we've actually built the first of its kind way of buying or thinking about purchasing acrossA national media buyer, an agency at the national level, a district media buyer, most of these franchisees actually also have districts, or DMAs, where they have their own pools of funds that can be allocated for growth, and then also at the local level. Incremental to that, not only is if you're a franchisee and you own a couple McDonald's and a couple, uh, you know, a couple Subways and a couple other brands. Now you can also manage your business across brands. It's really the first of a kind product in its space, designed entirely to kind of work between local and national brand.We also, of course, support local. started to invest in larger CPGs. And there, you know, we really look at some of the other large retail media networks in the [00:13:00] space. You know, today I was reading the the amazing work that you all did with a woman who leads Kroger's retail media business and built it from scratch.We find a lot of inspiration from those folks learning, understanding how we can add an incremental service to folks that are already spending a lot of money at other retail media networks. And, um, and I think we found Uh, some very cool opportunities for us there, Ilyse: Very cool. You were saying how it's about 90 percent SMBs and 10 percent um, big business. Um, how does that play out within the DoorDash platform?Toby: yeah.yeah. So so it's really and when I meant that it's kind of think about where the dollars are coming from. So You might think of DoorDash Volume as large businesses. You know, a lot of people are ordering McDonald's. But the reality is the, the spender, the buyer of media could be a local franchisee.So the brand is national, but the spend is still local. That's kind of what I was saying there. On [00:14:00] the, as you know, also on the CPG side, uh, large brands like Pepsi and Coca Cola and P& G, those are large, national, entrenched franchises. Brands. Those are timeless, timeless brands that have been around for a very long time.And so the question there is, how do we build products that are timely to help the timeless? And that's been a very interesting journey for us over the last two and a half years. It's a, it's a new space for us again, as I said. Um, but it's going swimmingly well. And, and today we have the opportunity to sit on stage with, with Pernod Ricard, which is, of course, one of the storied alcohol manufacturers.Ilyse: Um, can you talk a little bit about the Partnerships and how you actually go about working with like those brands and retailers that are using your platform so much Toby: We, like I said, were founded as a growth helper. So built in our DNA is working with others to help them grow.We obviously have a [00:15:00] very large consumer marketplace that is that has helped those businesses grow. And so some of us think of in the same You know, uh, letters of other large consumer marketplaces like an Amazon, uh, like a Walmart e com.But we are fundamentally built in our DNA a partner oriented culture. What that means is first we get to partner with great local brands, mid market brands, national brands, add in the manufacturers, but that also means we get to do fun things like Add in Max, or add in Chase, or add in other folks where there are a lot of people, if given the opportunity, want to help local businesses grow.Our job is to help figure out a way to make that happen. Ilyse: would you say that is captured users I guess and they'reToby: It's a, no, it's a great question. The underlying thing is, how do we do it in a way that continues to compound our consumer promise, which is faster, better, cheaper. And, and, you know, we'll be the first to say there are some partnerships [00:16:00] where it doesn't necessarily help that much.And then there's other partnerships where it has been critical. Think about our Chase partnership and, and the depth in which we've built that partnership over time, where everybody that has a, you know, a Chase credit card has the opportunity to participate in one of the largest subscription, local subscription programs, uh, in the world.And so, some work quite well, others are challenging, and we're a first principled company that, that tries to get better every single day.Damian: Just to on that point are you very strategic about looking for new partnerships you know, that's an interesting one chase and of course there are many others but how do you think about it and go about building those different partnerships.Toby: Yeah it's a collaboration Internally within DoorDash, we have, uh, general managers that run different business units, just as myself. We have functional leaders like our incredible, uh, CMO Kofi, who has built one of the world's largest brands in a span of years, not decades, which is incredibly, incredibly amazing, and he is a celebrity. If you ever want to feel like a [00:17:00] celebrity, just walk with Kofi in Cannes for about 15 to 20 minutes and it'll be the coolest thing you'll ever experience.Um, next year, exactly, exactly. Um, but It's a collaboration across different functions, and then it's a collaboration with a partner. You know, one of the most interesting partnerships that we've launched in the last two years, from my vantage point, is we are a close partner with Amazon in Canada. Now, a lot of folks, when you think of DoorDash and Amazon would say, competitors, that, that doesn't work.Right. But we work really, really hard to try to figure out anywhere, if possible, with the largest businesses and brands that we look up to, is there a place that we can collaborate and again, help local businesses grow. That's the fundamental premise behind the whole thing Ilyse: very cool now what about when it comes to like an ad perspective. How are you working with these brands and partnering with them?Toby: Yeah, we are, I think in the ad ecosystem, you know, it's, it's, it's, there's a simple recipe that we're trying to follow. One is access. So can I [00:18:00] provide access for people to purchase? We, very early on, our first investment was in a self serve ad manager, so that local businesses could purchase our products, both promotions and our ad products, live themselves, without needing to talk to somebody.So that was first. So one is access. That's the news also from last week, where now we provide access to the largest restaurant brands, DMAs, and franchisees across the country. first of a kind product. Again, I know I keep saying that, but I'm very, very proud of it because not many people, not many technologists build for franchisees in this country.And they are one of the largest, um, one of the largest, most hardworking groups of individuals that that again, we look up to. Um, so one is access Two is providing the tools to get the best return possible. So that is, can I do better targeting? Can I? Are there new access points that I can, that I can get to?Along those lines, we've invested a lot in in better targeting again for those enterprise restaurants. [00:19:00] So today you can target new users, you can target lapsed users, you can do that if you're a brand, a small brand like a single owner operator, you can do it if you're a national restaurant, and you can also do it if you're one of the largest brands in the country.So one is better targeting tools and incrementality. And then the final is, is impressions. So, You know, DoorDash, again, we are humbly one of the favorite and largest marketplaces in the country. But we very well know there are other people that are hungry on a daily basis who are not eyes on DoorDash.And so, can we provide the ability for people, uh, for brands to reach those people using our data? And that was one of the announcements we made last week was as well.Ilyse: so one of the things I feel like DoorDash is almost known for in the advertising marketing space is it aligns itself to big occasions throughout the year.Ilyse: I know we saw [00:20:00] DoorDash for the Super Bowl, Mother's Day. Can you talk about how you plan for such occasions? And maybe what's your favorite one to work at on and be like presentToby: maybe what's Yeah We have learned over time that these occasions. Because we learned from our core customers, both the consumer and merchants that these occasions are important to them.So if you think of, if you think of Super Bowl, imagine you are a local owner operator of a wing restaurant in Tulsa. Super Bowl is your Super Bowl, right? It is the biggest day of the year where you sell out your entire inventory at the staff up, you have to build for it. We wanted to follow our customers into that moment.Mother's Day, huge moment.Both for folks where it's a special day to remember somebody or for folks that are trying to be a mother for the first time, right? So you have this both, both signs, [00:21:00] an incredible opportunity to reach consumersfrom an advertising perspective. Again, going back to partnerships, they're tricky.You have an advertiser who's excited to also follow you into that occasion. And what we try to do with these three way partnerships, we've done them with Wendy's, we've done them with Roku, we've done them with many others, trying to find three way alignment of incentives to, to again, drive local growth for our customers.Damian: I think one of the best gifts I ever got, was when my son was born somebody bought us a DoorDash gift card which was so helpful to have food delivered you know when you're at home with this tiny little baby.Ilyse: Showing up at those occasions, but also, you know, just ongoing brand campaigns. How does that proximity, why is it important for brand building? How does this, like, enable you to extend into new categories?Toby: Yeah, have you? Um, Our Super Bowl commercial is a great example of this. This past year, uh, the words were a door to more DoorDash went from again being a single vertical single product company to a multi vertical multi product company in a very, very, very fast time frame. Now, consumers are incredible.They learn very quickly. Habits are harder to change and harder to adapt and move over [00:23:00] time. And so we are in the earliest innings of our consumers really understanding that now you could actually get a pair of sneakers delivered to you on DoorDash when you need a new pair, like I did this weekend in order to go for a run.And in that moment, being able to kind of jump on these large consumer moments help from our vantage point.Our 37 million monthly active users start to understand that really DoorDash is here as an assistant in your life across all of these categories and verticals whenever you need us. We aren't just Thai food, now we're also the ability to get something, uh, to get something when you're feeling sick.And, um, and we're very, very proud to do that and very humbled to do that for our customers. Damian: Yeah. that's uh, expanding the whole concept of, of of DoorDash. Um, speaking of expanding the concept, you know, you've also cultivated good partnerships with streaming partners, and you [00:24:00] mentioned Max a little bit earlier. Why is it that streaming and delivery seem to kind of work in synchrony? Toby: it's again, I think it goes back to the moment. There's a very happy moment in my household when we finish work. And we have some, we get a little, a door, a little ring on our door, and there's a package outside, and it's filled with two burritos. And we get to turn on Max and watch industry. There's a sliver of moment in time where we're just feeling absolute happiness and joy.Now, that is a moment that a lot of consumers around the country and around the world feel. We're trying to give everybody a little bit of time back. Again, this concept of putting the weight of other things on our shoulders as a company to help people, to help local economies grow, to help [00:25:00] save consumers time, to help Dashers make a little bit of extra money.That is what we are trying to do at Dash. And so, aligning ourselves in this moment of peace. This moment of just absolute happiness with a streaming service, which all of us experience,is a very nice moment to be right next to, uh, to be right next to these brands from a consumer perspective. And so they've been, they've been very, they've been great partnerships so far.We're very excited, uh, about, about thinking about finding more of those opportunities as time goes Damian: about door dashes as a way to get time back, you know, but of course it does doesIlyse: There's too many things to worry about outside of that. Damian: we're going to ask the inevitable question about AI and how, you know, obviously door dash must be integrated with AI technology. But how do you think about it as we look ahead?Toby: We, as a company were very [00:26:00] data driven company. We have been from our founding. Again, we are riding on the backs of one of the largest technological revolutions of our time, the Internet and then the Internet plus mobile. And so to say that we want to be and continue to be students about how this next revolution will change, both from.from our merchants, consumers and dashers lives. We are in the very earliest innings and we're trying to learn as fast as possible. Um, I think what's very exciting if you kind of take a step back and you again put on the mindset of the shoes of we are trying to be an assistant for all of our customers across a bunch of different ways.Dasher Make, uh, from a financial services perspective, helping them make more money, helping them find more opportunities to make money, consumers saving time, and merchants making more. If you kind of put yourselves in all those shoes, and we're trying to be an assistant, AI as a technology will only help accelerate our mission of doing that and then unlocking growth for local.I think we're going to [00:27:00] see one of the largest increases in, in growth that we desperately, desperately need for those. Places that are our favorite coffee shop, Thai food place, uh, and, and, um, you know, and place to go pick up your, your, your meds when you're a little sick. And so it's, it's a pretty cool future.We're very excited for it.Damian: in his 50 seatToby: I, we are absolutely, we, to be, to be clear, we DoorDash. He's now using our ad product. So if we can send them any incremental customers, it'll help them. It'll help them grow his business. Damian: There's one more question, I guess. And it's a sort of like a forward looking question. And it's are there any innovations that you're thinking about into 2025 that can help with this growth mindset that you've been talking about? Toby: we, We've done an okay job. We've done a great job of the access point, which is opening up an ad manager, [00:28:00] opening up a self serve sponsored listing, allowing CPG brands to access our consumers. We've done it. We've done a great job at that. We've done an okay job at the second two, which is.once you open up a lot of this inventory and help find ways to grow, it gets complex.I think we've added incremental complexity so far to our customers' lives for most of our customers, our advertisers, and so our team is extremely excited, looking forward to continue to take more of the complexity out of our customer's lives as we layer in more complexity. On the product and engineering platform that we've built internally, and that is a very hard problem to solve, but I have one of the best teams to help us go solve that, and we're very excited to take it on.

SiriusXM Media's Lizzie Collins joins The Current Podcast to discuss artificial intelligence, omnichannel campaigns and how influencers should utilize podcasts. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Lizzie Collins, the SVP of Ad Innovation and B2B Marketing at SiriusXM Media, the advertising arm of SiriusXM, which includes Pandora, the SiriusXM streaming network, as well as the podcast network. [00:00:21] Damian: There are likely very few people who know more about audio ad innovation than Lizzie, who was actually the very first salesperson at Pandora back in 2006.  [00:00:31] Ilyse: As a leader at SiriusXM Media, her focus is growing the largest digital audio ecosystem in North America. [00:00:39] Damian: So without further ado, we'll start by asking Lizzie about what advertisers need to know about the audio ad opportunity in 2024.   [00:00:47] Ilyse: So Lizzie, tell us, what is it that advertisers need to know about the opportunity to reach people on audio channels? [00:00:55] Lizzie: Yea, and thanks for having me. I love what you said about, I know everything about audio, but it's been quite a ride from 2006 until now. And I'd say that in this current moment in time, audio has such an important place in the consumer's life. 31, 32, whichever number you want to get hooked to percent of time spent with media is the audio format, and yet marketers are only allocating somewhere between 8, 9 under 10 percent of their media investment to this format. [00:01:21] So first and foremost, I want advertisers to know just the power of audio. It is an opportunity to reach customers in places where you can't reach them via display or video. It has the power to turn on their brain in a unique way because you have the theater of the mind that has to like fill in the pictures and the faces. [00:01:38] And so cognitively, it's just such a powerful way to message. And so when you match the power of the format with, Oh my gosh, there's all this incremental time that I'm not messaging to them. We just think there's a real opportunity in audio in general. [00:01:54] Ilyse: So looking at podcasting at least, podcasting isone of the fastest [00:02:00] growing digital channels. How have you been able to grow programmatic at Sirius XM and Pandora? [00:02:49] Lizzie: Well podcasting, I think we all love. We're here on a podcast. So this is very meta talking about podcasting on a podcast. I love that. I want to point that out for the listeners. podcasting is not [00:03:00] necessarily new, but the ability for advertisers to buy it at scale with maybe an audience based buying strategy with all of the tracking and targeting that they're used to in digital is what we've really foundationally been putting in place for the last two years. [00:03:13] So what many don't know is that SiriusXM Media, Pandora, SoundCloud, and all of our other partnerships operate on the AdsWiz platform. And we are an audio first technology company. We built all of our own audio, ad delivery, ad serving, tracking, and whatnot. The opportunity to modernize the podcast space is what's really been the key factor for us to drive revenue in that space. [00:03:35] And then specific to programmatic without those pipes, right? Without that ability to do dynamic ad insertion, to target audiences, to onboard data, and then digitally deliver those ads, you were going to have buyers doing what they were doing historically one show at a time. I can't tell you the stories, the horror stories of going into the clients and saying, here's our spreadsheet where we're tracking the [00:04:00] podcasts we think we should be buying based on Joe podcast guy in the corner who just happens to know the most about podcasts. [00:04:06] So It's, the first step was putting that foundational ad tech in place. And the second step has been taking all of what advertisers appreciate in terms of programmatic transaction and bringing it to podcasting. And that's where IAB and others are referencing this significant growth because it's this bringing the best of two worlds together into this medium. [00:04:26] Ilyse: What would you say are the advantages to programmatic ad buying on audio networks? How is it audience first? Well, [00:04:34] Lizzie: Well, I think overall you're seeing a big trend in advertisers. Brands, even within the client agencies, publishers wanting to reduce friction on the buy side and the transaction as a whole. So programmatic obviously has been that promise for, gosh, over a decade now, right? To Create just an effortless buying transaction. [00:04:57] And so when we think [00:05:00] about audio more specifically and audience based buying, like we have to be able to connect all of those pipes and be able to not be this hard to buy. Product. And so we've, you know, I spoke to that in my last example. that's been so much of the work we've done the last two years. [00:05:16] And then because of all of that, we're a little different than some other audio partners were open ecosystem. So we will work with any third party measurement vendor, transaction partners like the trade desk, um, targeting partners like Comscore and advertisers obviously have their own data and their own ways in which they want to measure. [00:05:34] And so that's also been, a huge breakthrough for us. For us in terms of allowing you said audience based buying. I mean, just allowing our clients to address their customers in this format in the most effortless way  [00:05:46] Damian: One of the things that's interesting about audio is how it's different from, TV, which has traditionally been a big brand building medium. Of course, that's changing too because of CTV, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how Pandora thinks about [00:06:00] his ad offerings in terms of the balance between big brand campaigns and performance.  [00:06:06] Lizzie: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think what's hidden in this question is creative in general and trying to help brands understand the power of what audio creative can do. It can create. effortlessly travel cross device, right? It can reach customers where they're not seeing a video ad or they're not seeing a display ad. [00:06:27] It can get right literally into their ears. And I talked about, the power of that. And so we, I would say, do talk to our customers about different products, drive different results. Of course, you might want mass reach and super efficient for, some effort. That you're trying to push maybe top of funnel or you need something super geo targeted You want to move specific product off a store shelf? [00:06:50] Yeah, that can impact targeting and that can impact some of what we sell you based on price But we spend a lot more time through our in house agency studio resonate [00:07:00] Helping to educate our customers on the right way to bring the video message into the audio format. If they're a video first creative agency, and that starts with an audio brief, you'd be surprised how many agencies do a creative brief and it doesn't include audio as a way to interpret the brand or determine the call to action. [00:07:20] And so once we get going in that direction, then we can take all aspects of their KP eyes and build custom creative to meet the needs of whatever they're trying to get the consumer to do. I love [00:07:30] Damian: I love that, can I ask a follow up question about that? What would you say are some of the salient points about building a good audio brief? Well, [00:07:47] Lizzie: is the largest podcast network for women in the United States. We beat everyone else. And it's that type of insight and then the creators that are within our podcast network to say, look, [00:07:58] Lizzie: Ashley Flowers is here. [00:07:59] She's a [00:08:00] massive star in the podcast world. She really has a tempo to her shows. It's true crime. These listeners are so leaned in that you don't need a music bed. You don't need a scream at the listener in that example, which might be more of a sort of traditional upbeat 15 second audio spot that might live in a music station. [00:08:19] And so a lot of it is trying to understand the customer. Then. What is the, context in which we're targeting? And then of course we have a million best practices about, testing creative. And we use a lot of third parties to come in and actually pre test creative. of course we have all of our own technology, which I mentioned. [00:08:34] So we'll AB test creative. and again, what I love about audio is that it's pretty effortless to build an audio ad. you can go from brief to a spec spot, 30 minutes. Or less if we're talking about a I produced creative, which we can talk about, too. And so to be able to have all that optionality for an agency to play with actually helps inform a lot of landing the brief. [00:08:58] And then, of course, we have something to [00:09:00] live with throughout a campaign to reach back to [00:09:02] Damian: So it's getting a lot more nuanced now that you mentioned creativity, and that's very interesting. [00:09:07] Lizzie: It's getting more nuanced because, look, you said I was the first salesperson at Pandora and I was, and we were only ever inserting a 15 or a 30 second spot in between your favorite song. Now we're talking about spoken word content, podcast, it could be sports, it could be country music, you're talking about, and then in car. [00:09:26] at home mobile. So the good news is all of that signal capture we do on our end that we can understand where ultimately this ads running and then that informs how many creative options you need. But it's not like video where that would take months to do, right? This is copy to add is quick. [00:09:54] Ilyse: When it comes to being more nuanced, looking at podcasts for instance, there's so many different types op podcasts like true crime you brought up. I like those ones as well. Like crime junkie, [00:10:00] for instance. What kind of audiences are they attracting? And what does that mean for advertisers? [00:10:06] Lizzie: So the Sirius XM podcast network is over 2500 shows. So you're talking about we're have the most shows in the top 50, but we also have great shows, middle and long tail. And so, it's as diverse as everybody's tastes. I mean, everything from vibe check, which is three African American gay, really outspoken guys that do the latest on news interpreted from their eyes and their ears all the way into crime junkie all the way into sports. [00:10:34] we have shows about car racing, right? So it's That's what's so special about podcasting. But what's unique about Sirius XM and our specific network is that you don't have to come in and buy one show at a time. You can come in and say, I want women over index and true crime. So that's going to be a nice part of your buy. [00:10:53] and that's something unique , to what we offer.  [00:11:00] Ilyse: It's surprising to me, women and true crime for some reason.  [00:11:01] Lizzie: I know. You know what? I think it's because so many women want to escape. They're day for a moment, all of our beloved housewives at home, like commuting kids around. And it's very cerebral. what's really cool about true crime that I don't think a lot of people understand if you don't listen, is it's problem solving. [00:11:21] It's like really detailed, trying to get to the bottom of what happened with the story. And I think it turns the brain on in a way that is invigorating.  [00:11:29] Ilyse: Yeah, on that note, is True Crime like one of the most popular or what are some of those popular genres [00:11:36] Lizzie: there's so many. Comedy is very popular. Team Coco with Conan O'Brien is within our network. Smartless is a really popular TV show. Sort of mixed in with almost pop culture and comedy. sports is growing fast and specifically, women's sports, which is great. And what, I think is fun about that is there's so much story to tell behind the scenes in sports. [00:11:58] And I think podcasts can do that in a [00:12:00] way that linear TV can't, news, true crime like we mentioned. And yeah, those would be like my tops. [00:12:07] Ilyse: Very cool. Why do you think women's sports is growing [00:12:09] Lizzie: I just think there's so much of a story to tell about a lot of the women athletes and it's all over the news, right? What's happening in women's basketball, women's soccer is now a professional sport where you can make a career at it. I think there's just so much growth in terms of audiences leaning in and there's a bunch of commercial opportunity there. [00:12:29] And so, women want to tell, women want to tell their story. And you can do that in podcasting in a way you cannot do in other media types. That's why we're here! [00:12:38] Damian: exactly. Yeah. Now, according to your research with Edison, 66 percent of Gen Z podcast listeners say they listen to or watch podcasts to stay up to date with the latest topics. But only 17 percent say they trust the info they read on social media, our podcast hosts, the new, more trusted social media influences. [00:12:58] Lizzie: I mean, yes, [00:13:00] short answer is yes, but I don't think it's just podcast. I think any influencer out there that is very invested in their craft and their trade and having a commercial opportunity and being an influencer understands the power of how podcasting and audio more specifically helps them reach their audience. [00:13:16] So Ashley flowers is a great example. She's on social all the time, whether she's talking about fashion or her famous lip color or what shows are coming up next, different cases that she's, researching. [00:13:28] And so you'll often see her listeners kind of go back and forth on social and that ultimately informs her show. And so this, ecosystem connection is what these influencers are after. And I think the power of the podcast format is they can just tell deeper stories and therefore tell deeper, you know, why to buys for the products that are integrated. [00:13:49] So some are probably more comfortable than others, but the audio influencer, and the other thing to add is just like they're connected to their audience in a way off social media and into the [00:14:00] podcast where they can just use more words. They can just describe something beyond the snippet based format that is social for all of us.. [00:14:12] Damian: And why is that effective for advertisers? Why is that helpful? [00:14:14] Lizzie: I just think they can riff. It's just it's out again outside of the 15 or 30 second window. They can riff about why they like the product. They can go deeper into the benefits of it or what is cool about it to them. so personal endorsement. I mean, that's what they're able to do in that space. [00:14:29] And it's a super powerful way for advertisers to drive, their KPIs.  [00:14:34] Damian: So, when it comes to that omni channel experience, podcasts are, and you mentioned that you're part of this open network. It's good for advertisers to be able to reach their audience on the podcast, but beyond that, it can obviously, drive an omni channel campaign. [00:14:51] Lizzie: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up. We were so curious about what is the true income mentality of a podcast listener. And [00:15:00] so for the last year, we've been analyzing campaigns. We actually analyzed over 2000 campaigns to determine when we add podcasting to a streaming plan, how much more incremental reach. [00:15:11] And it depends on the campaign. But the mean was 32%. Incremental audience was captured in the podcasting line, essentially being added to the order. And so without that, those customers would have never been messaged. And I think that's just a really good example of the power of what Sirius XM media brings to bear. [00:15:29] Even in the audio space, we have such a multi channel opportunity for our marketers. [00:15:34] Ilyse: So, I saw an interview with you last year talking about how advertisers can use AI to save costs. And that's seems like a very common refrain in the industry right now because things have moved very fast on the front. How are you thinking about a I in 2024 this year? Yeah, you [00:15:54] Lizzie: you know, there's a lot. [00:15:56] Lizzie: around AI, a lot of buzz and how does it ultimately [00:16:00] land for each of us to make our lives easier or to augment what we're already doing. And one of the things that we see with smaller brands and smaller buys is that sometimes they feel like there's a barrier of entry if they don't have audio creative. [00:16:17] And so we've done a lot of testing to leverage AI to be able to like. self service, the creative process. And so, that's where we're leveraging AI, which is just to take a company that, might be in media agency. That's of one person, right? That kind of like kitchen counter, digital marketer that might have a couple clients. [00:16:35] Maybe they have a couple car dealers or maybe they have a couple of doctor's offices. And so we have a really great product that they can use in our audio go, which is our self serve buying tool to just come in and quickly make an audio ad. and they're off to the races. And so that's where we've tried to bring it forth is just where can we make someone that might be stuck because they don't have the resources, how can we help them scale? [00:16:58] And so AI [00:17:00] helps us do that. I think there's also a future of where we'll see AI show up and how we're just crunching numbers for our clients and how we're processing data. It's just about speed and scale. It's not going to replace our creators. We're, there's no AI Conan coming anytime soon. [00:17:16] Ilyse: a particular sector of brand that have been, more friendly towards audio ads or have approached audio? More enthusiastically than others? Mm [00:17:29] Lizzie: years into this selling audio business. And I would say years ago, yes, it would be, entertainment really understood the power of it. And maybe someone like CPG was like, ah, if I don't show the girl shampooing her hair, how's anyone going to understand how this product works? [00:17:44] But we're so past that. There's no one vertical. I think just the one. Overwhelmingly, it's just an underspent problem and that audio and the consumer behavior and audio is outpaced the marketer's investment. So that's just most of what we spend time helping them to [00:18:00] understand. [00:18:02] Damian: Do you still think, given the big opportunity that audio represents, there's a lot more education to be done for marketers? And what does that look like? Yeah. [00:18:28] Lizzie: is last click attribution. Not to say that everyone's doing that now. [00:18:31] Many of our customers are going to more of a mixed media model. And so it's just helping them to figure out where do you put audio in your measurement plan? How do we work together to make sure you're understanding where you're delivering impressions against what customers and how ultimately that's driving your KPIs. [00:18:48] But it requires a conversation and education because they're not inherently, if they're not buying it, they don't know how to measure it and they could be undervaluing it or giving value to a different partner because they weren't capturing the right [00:19:00] data signal. [00:19:01] Ilyse: How do you guys measure it? [00:19:03] Lizzie: So it depends on what they're looking for. Of course, there's many amazing third parties out there that were integrated with to measure everything from store traffic to attitudinal intent. but again, back to the fact that we own all of our own ad tech, we sit on The right data in a very privacy safe place to be able to work with clean rooms or work with advertisers directly or partners to share impression level data or whatever is the right signal in order for them to recognize if that customer converted so it's not rocket science. [00:19:32] All of us that are in this space understand how it works, but because we sit on all of our own ad tech and we're open to working with anyone, we personalize it for whatever the customer wants.    [00:19:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:19:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:19:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:19:55] I'm Damian. [00:19:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:19:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report. 

The reservation platform Resy centers itself around the communal experience that comes from dining, affirming and building connection between restaurants and diners, according to CMO Hannah Kelly. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Hannah Kelly, the CMO of Resy. [00:00:09] Damian: Want to make a restaurant reservation? American Express owned Resy is there for you. With over 40 million global users, the app has driven over 600 million reservations. Now that's a lot of fine dining, I imagine. [00:00:23] Ilyse: With almost 14 years of working at American Express under her belt, Hannah leads marketing efforts to connect restaurants and tastemakers. [00:00:31] Damian: We start off by talking about the value of customer data and how insights inform Resy's marketing strategy.  [00:00:38] Damian: We work in an industry where, data is capital. You know, how does Resy rely on the customer data, especially from its parent company, American Express? [00:00:47] Hannah: Sure. So thank you so much for having me. And you could argue that the premise of the Resyacquisition was based on American Express's deep use of data. So when we look at spend at American Express, dining one [00:01:00] of our highest spend categories. We reached 100 billion in spend for the full year in 2023 for the first time ever. [00:01:06] So for us, being an American Express and in the business of membership, we are constantly looking for ways to engage and attract card members and deepen our relationships with merchants. Resy naturally presented that opportunity as a way for us to own an asset, own a brand, and build a community of being able to connect the world's best restaurants to the world's best diners on a proprietary basis. [00:01:28] Damian: That makes a lot of sense. I, as an Amex owner, do spend a lot in restaurants. I wonder if you have any interesting stories around turning those insights into action. [00:01:38] Hannah: Sure. So, We know that millennials and Gen Z's are worried about making the perfect reservation. In fact, we commissioned our own research and we found that 50 percent of the millennial and Gen Z population are worried about making the perfect reservation. [00:01:52] And so with that, that drove three sort of primary objectives and campaigns for us. So first is our brand platform. we launched a brand platform in [00:02:00] 2023 called Reservationships, which is really meant to highlight how that Resy is more than reservations, really being that trusted partner in crime when you don't know where to go. [00:02:09] You want to have that fine dining moment with your potential in laws to be with a new date. How can we really own the fact that Resy has served as that sort of curator, and role. I think the second piece has been, this past year we introduced our Resy shareable hit list. so what that function allows you to do in the iOS app is anyone can go in and create a list based on any title that you want. [00:02:31] Go to date nights. Kid friendly places. You name it. We have some very creative takes in there. and you can share them out with friends. So again, it's really meant to give users the confidence that they are selecting and making the best reservation possible for them. [00:02:48] Hannah: And we've extended that and really leaned into that a bit more with our third deliverable this year, which has been around the launch of our discover tab. [00:02:54] So now when you go into the Resy app, you not just only see a list of restaurants based [00:03:00] on your location or cities. We've always had collections, but now our discover tab actually brings in all of our editorial content into the app. And just for reference in Q one of 2024, we highlighted over 000 plus restaurants in all of our editorial across 300 stories. [00:03:17] So now all of that content is there in formats that can helpfully guide users on how they can connect with restaurants that they should love if they don't know them already and ones that they want to continue to celebrate their love for and be a patron of. [00:03:28] Ilyse: You know, retail data continues to have a moment among marketers. In your experience, how much do these insights influence your strategy? And what do you think is the future of this type of data? [00:03:42] Hannah: So I think for us, guest research is the number one place that we constantly look to. And for us, a lot of that is where are people notifying, where are people searching, where are people dining. And at American Express, we're able to see where our card members are spending. And with Resy, we're able to see where they're searching. [00:03:57] And we use that to inform our research. Anything from [00:04:00] the restaurants that we go after on our platform. So being really thoughtful around what are the types of cuisines that might be missing? What are the types of underrepresented cuisines or restaurants that we need to bring onto our platform? So what's not being searched for? [00:04:11] and then obviously our product offering. So as mentioned, really trying to tap into ways that we can not only help diners based on research that we've collected, but also By introducing the discover tab by introducing things like shareable hit list. Those give us new avenues to really discover. What are the trends and what are the capabilities and offerings that Resy can provide? [00:04:31] And even more importantly, what can we pass to our restaurants that they could learn about guests that they might not be able to get on their own? So we think about it not only as What type of research can we use to improve the experience around discoverability and in restaurant dining, but also think about how we can use that a differentiator for our partners and for our restaurants on our platform as well. [00:04:51] Ilyse: That's, that's made me curious. What is the, most popular cuisine that Resy users are, [00:05:00] are making reservations for? [00:05:01] Hannah: I don't know the exact cuisine type, but I can tell you we typically look at the types of cities that we see a lot of dining demand around, and we use that to really guide where we have a lot of our restaurant partners. We also really care about shining a light on underrepresented food types as well. [00:05:16] So, We did a ton of work during, COVID 19 around highlighting the importance of Chinatown and the love stories of Chinatown, knowing that there is xenophobia happening as a result of the pandemic. also in the spring of 2020, when we think back to the wake of George Floyd, looking at how we can really highlight black owners and operators and chefs in our community. [00:05:35] And that's something that we had always done. So, we again look at what's been searched, what hasn't been searched and really how we want to perpetuate the diversity, and future of the industry in the best way possible. [00:05:47] Damian: You mentioned the site is more than a reservations app, and you're basically building kind of editorial and curated content. that's fascinating. could you say a little bit more about that and how you target taste makers and [00:06:00] people in the know and those underrepresented kind of food types that you mentioned? [00:06:04] Hannah: So believe it or not, we get asked all the time if restaurants have to apply to be on Resy and what the selection process is. There is no selection process. Any restaurant can pay to be on Resy. But I think the reason why we get that is because of how we are able to surface and highlight the restaurants on our platform in a way that goes beyond just the menu and when their hours of operation are. [00:06:27] So for us, that's really thinking about the editorial stories, as mentioned, where we have, A whole entire editorial team that's dedicated to coming up with ongoing franchises, like the one who keeps the books, which is our most popular, where we see, our guests going in and figuring out of the top restaurants from the actual owners and operators, when they release inventory, how they release inventory, and how best to get seated, also longer form content as well. [00:06:52] Beyond our edit. We're really an experiential brand as well. We'll do around 200 events by the end of [00:07:00] 2024 with restaurant partners. Why? Because we know that our guests want to be able to experience restaurants and get that behind the scenes, behind the curtain look and feel. And our restaurant partners view us as a co conspirator and collaborator. [00:07:13] We meet with our top restaurant partners. Frequently and instead of saying, Hey, how is your performance with Rosie? How are you enjoying? We talk about what are your 5 10 year growth plans? What are you thinking about in the immediate future that's keeping you up? What story do you want to be able to tell? [00:07:27] What opening do you have? What new product? What front of house team member do you want to celebrate and really use that to help guide and inspire how we create a lot of our content, not just for edit, but in real life experiences. Yes. [00:07:48] Damian: I suppose that feeds into that in many ways. But, how do you strike a balance between telling those stories and your own story? It's [00:07:57] Hannah: not about us. people care about Resy because of the [00:08:00] restaurants on our platform. And I think Resy, when it was founded in 2014, really came out with a differentiated view, which is we want to be for restaurants by people from the restaurant community. And it's not about the dollar that Resy wants to spend. [00:08:13] It's to take or make from the restaurant partners. So we've really maintained that not only in our business offering but in our brand story. And when I look at the reservations platform that we developed last year, it's not about Resy and about how great Resy is. It's about the relationships. that we broker, broker between restaurants and the broader industry and the community. [00:08:33] So all of the B to B and industry support that we do, on the guest side, obviously building relationships and starting new ones between guests and hopefully restaurants that they want to become a regular with and between our diners as well, celebrating why people love going out. And when we look at our editorial, we're trying to curate around insights. [00:08:52] [00:09:00] Um, it's really about creating a platform and owning the fact that we are a network and that our restaurants are greater than us. And in doing that and having the right level of gravitas towards our partners. In turn, I think that's what has allowed Resy y to become a little bit more of a darling than maybe some of our competitors. [00:09:20] Damian: So interesting. And in terms of, like, the results that you're seeing from this kind of, integration of these different stories and balancing between restaurants and guests, are there any new innovations that you're looking at this year to kind of keep that in motion? Yeah, [00:09:35] Hannah: I think this year. So the discover tab and our shareable lists were really big launches for us this year. So it's really starting to think about what that ecosystem looks like and owning that as a platform for our guests in our restaurants to tell their story. [00:09:51] I think also leaning into our relationships with our partners. So this summer, what's really exciting in a prime example of this is the [00:10:00] Unapologetic experience that we push live with our partners at Unapologetic Foods. So, for context, Unapologetic Foods is a hospitality group, Indian hospitality group, based in New York. [00:10:11] Very, very highly sought after restaurants, such as SEMA. and in fact, the New York Times did an entire story on how you could get into SEMA. Um, it Yeah, [00:10:21] Ilyse: jealous of them all. [00:10:23] Hannah: Which, by the way, the Resy Notify does work for SEMA. I can't tell you how many friends have texted me to say, I got off the list at SEMA, the feature works. [00:10:31] I'm like, thank you so much for validating. Also, going early works as well, which you'll find in the one who keeps the books. But, a prime example of this year and how we've really kind of put all these insights to practice has been when we met with Ronnie, the owner of Unapologetic Foods. I think it's really important to note that, when I was in the United States last year, he had really expressed a deep desire to try and get the word out and spread the word and love of Indian food outside of the major cities in the United States. [00:10:58] so basically trying [00:11:00] to make Indian food as mainstream as American or as Italian and how it's pretty underrepresented. He was a crazy thought, but I just wanted to share that with you. That's what I'm really thinking about. He said, Absolutely not crazy. Let's actually sit and think about how we could create a tour, what that experience would look like, really taking a nod and inspiration from him. [00:11:20] His dream was to go on tour. We pulled on that thread, and this past summer we have gone live in three different cities, L. A., Chicago, and D. C., at different Southeastern Asian cuisine. [00:11:31] Ilyse: glad to [00:11:31] Hannah: Those chefs collaborated with Ronnie and his team on a custom menu. There's content around it. And again, our job there is greater than Resy. [00:11:39] It's greater than a reservation. It's really about. So we're here at the Anna Jack Thai restaurant, unlocking something that was important to our partners. We had an hour long wait at the Anna Jack Thai experience the first night, even some influencers who were not asked to go standing in line for over an hour, which, again, is a testament to, I think, tapping into a real trend, but that really coming from an authentic place [00:12:00] from the restaurants on our platform and treating them as collaborators. [00:12:03] Damian: I just want to say I'm glad to hear that about Indian food because, you know, I'm originally from Britain and, Indian food is our number one cuisine. So it was always amazing to me that it was never that big in the U. S. I certainly, I think maybe New York it has been because there's a special area to the city, but in general, it's good to hear [00:12:19] Hannah: It's not the same as Britain. it's really not. And I think with Ronnie, his staff and the front of house team, they take the time to really educate you. So if you go to SEMA, They'll give you the menu, they'll assess, what you're there for, why, but they have no problem demystifying and taking the lead on walking you through why each dish is special, why their biryani has a very special rice, which is different because of the region of India that the chef is from versus what you might see somewhere else and calling attention to things that diners might not pick up on other than like, Oh, I know I need to go here because it's a hot reservation. [00:12:54] They really take the time to use that as an opportunity to tell a bigger story and hopefully make a bigger impact. [00:13:00] Now you've spent [00:13:02] Ilyse: years working at American Express. That's like a tenure that's almost unheard of in today's working landscape, let alone marketing. And you've worn many hats at American Express. So we're going to talk a little bit about your experience along the way. How has this experience shaped your philosophy now as CMO? [00:13:17] Hannah: already shaped your philosophy now. At American Express, I had come from fashion PR, which was very much here's this asset. Here's this piece. Go pitch it, send out a sample, get it back, and it felt very transactional. I started on the open brand strategy team, which was our small business branded American Express at the time, and the number one thing the team was focused on was this new report that had come out around what is on the mind of a small business owner, and the number one [00:14:00] insight was help me get more customers. [00:14:02] And in that moment, I remember sitting in this conference room thinking, Oh, God, how is American Express going to tackle this? What do we do? And really, it was diving in and understanding they just need a day. They need a moment that's going to get people to go out and shop. So with the partnership of many agencies and teams internally, we came up the most simple idea possible, which was small business Saturday. [00:14:25] And here we are entering its 15th year. It launched with a Facebook page and really just anything possible to help get more business to small businesses was the premise. Since that time on, and now almost 14 years later, I've always tried to think about what is that deeper, higher order insight that we have the opportunity to serve and have translated that through all the many years and months of experience in American Express and now Resy and Resy, we acquired and closed Resy in July of 2019. [00:14:56] We're in the process of integrating the companies, making [00:15:00] sure that we're keeping Resy and figuring out how we bring the best to bear of American Express. And then a pandemic happens, which brought our industry to its knees. So again, pulling on that same tool, what's the number one thing we needed to do? [00:15:11] How do we keep our restaurants afloat? So at the other end of this pandemic, there are restaurants that we can serve on our platform. And with that, We met the chief medical officer of American Express, figured out that we have a chief medical officer in American Express, and looked at ways that we could create COVID safe dining behaviors. [00:15:28] And that led to sponsorship of outdoor experiences across 45 restaurants within the state. So again, just, I think, really listening and being obsessed with the customer. It has paid dividends. And [00:15:45] Damian: up, that's a tremendous legacy. 15 years of small business Saturday, yes, must be satisfying. And then as you think about Resy now and building out that future, do you have, um, do you have Goals that you want to achieve this year five years down the line [00:16:00] And maybe I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. [00:16:03] I'm sure you do [00:16:03] Hannah: Yeah. So this year is actually our 10 year anniversary at Resy. and it's amazing to see you to the point of all the growth that you cited at the beginning of the taping. Like what? What we've had in that short period of time, and I think for us, it's really been because we've been that co conspirator and partner to the industry. [00:16:22] So for us, The next sort of chapter of Resy is really going to be harnessing that even more, which is when you are a restaurant and you're trying to think of how you can grow your business, how you're trying to get your story out there. Who are you turning to? I want you to be thinking about Resy. [00:16:37] And I don't want you to be thinking about Resy just from the sake of a table management platform or a demand network. I want you to be thinking about us as a critical partner in helping you scale, grow your demand, tell that story of a cuisine type, build an experience that only we could be able to partner with. [00:16:55] And then from a guest side, when you have a dining occasion, I want [00:17:00] you to come to Resy, yes, of course, to think about that. But. But I also want to be the destination to help curate and really be the trendsetter that anytime you're trying to figure out what is happening in my city, a city that I'm traveling to in the broader food industry at large, what does that mean? [00:17:16] And I think a great example of how that is sort of coming to life now is, as part of American Express's relationship with Disney, they actually approached us to think about how we could do a deeper integration for the season three premiere of the bear. Why the bear? All about food. You have people at home now saying corner when they're cooking in their kitchen, and I didn't know what that meant prior to watching that show. [00:17:40] They came to American Express because of our ownership of Resy and what we mean to that industry. So we actually hosted a private screening for American Express card members for the first, and we're also doing episodes one and two of season three at Kusama, one of our L. A restaurants. and that's really because these brands are [00:18:00] looking to figure out how do we authentically play in food and they're thinking Resy. [00:18:03] So how do we continue to evolve on that? What does that mean? How are we meeting our customers? The industry where it needs to be and really being seen as that sort of foothold. Wow. [00:18:15] Damian: that's amazing. That's the bear the hulu connection. That's fantastic [00:18:20] Ilyse:  [00:18:20] Damian: I read Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential many years ago, but it seems like, people's interest in food and cuisine is hotter than ever. If I may say, what's your take on  [00:18:33] Hannah: Couldn't agree more. and I think that if anything positive coming out of COVID 19 was that it taught us all and showed us all the importance of restaurants and what they mean to us. [00:18:43] So I think coming out of COVID, the number one thing that we heard and we've seen, and even as, as personally, I felt is, Wanting to go out and congregate and to be with people that I love friends, coworkers, family and restaurants are the gathering place for that. [00:19:00] And when that was taken away, I think that was really indicative of what this culture is missing and the role that restaurants can play in that. [00:19:07] And what you've seen is, I think, a genuine interest from the average consumer or diner who is just wanting to understand, What the importance of those restaurants are is like how they operate how we can keep them in business Get that peek behind the curtain. You're seeing shows like the bear emerge and  [00:19:27] I think, really indicates that reservations are a form of cultural currency, which is something that we talk about, inside Terezi. So our job is to really harness that, that sort of cultural zeitgeist moment and really use that as a way to help prop up more restaurants, keep them in business, and drive more demand. [00:19:45] Hannah: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:19:47] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:19:50] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:19:56] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:19:58] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:19:59] Damian: [00:20:00] And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Colgate-Palmolive's Brigitte King breaks down steering a global giant through digital transformation. She explores the value of connected TV and its data-driven addressability, why she thinks the marketing funnel looks more like a seesaw and how she's thinking about riding the retail media wave. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:01] And I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:06] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we're delighted to talk with Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer at Colgate [00:00:11] Ilyse: Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer of Colgate. [00:00:22] Damian: Of course, these days Colgate Palmolive is a thriving global company with an extensive portfolio of products and billions of customers worldwide. We [00:00:30] Ilyse: of customers worldwide. [00:00:33] Brigitte: global remit in a world awash with data. So Brigitte, [00:00:36] Damian: So Brigitte, let's start. Um, what are the main challenges and opportunities for CPG brands, right now in a world where the shelf is digital and it's extremely competitive? [00:00:46] Brigitte: first, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And I did love that, 1800s, date you threw in there. [00:00:52] Um, just for context, you know, we are, a company with a lot of legacy brands and a lot of longevity, and that's actually something great for [00:01:00] the company. but we've got dynamic change ahead of us. And what's fantastic is the company recognizes that. So they've embarked on a digital transformation, a data and analytics transformation, the kinds of things that we need to do to really modernize our brands in a digital first world. [00:01:17] So we do have challenges, like you said. I think that CPG brands have been, somewhat late to the party in terms of really, Getting to the digital and data transformations that we need to do. But by no means are they shy about it. I think everybody has embarked on that change management journey. And the great thing about Colgate is we started it, you know, many years ago and certainly with a lot of speed the last four years. [00:01:42] And the challenges are around modernizing how we reach consumers. the challenges are around making sure we care about the digital shelf as much as the physical shelf. And we sell toothpaste in cartons and tubes and it's on the shelf. But it's been pretty incredible, certainly post, the pandemic, [00:02:00] how quickly we had to master selling online. [00:02:03] And it is a very different skill. It's a very different capability. It requires content. It requires, mastery of the algorithm. It requires working with your retailers in many new and different ways. But I'm really proud to say that, with 15 percent econ penetration of our total sales, we're getting the job done. [00:02:20] Damian: So could you say a little bit more about the opportunity of digital transformation? What does it mean? [00:02:25] Brigitte: Sure. For us, what it means is, is strategically making sure that we can start outperforming in digital commerce. And that means whether it's last mile delivery, or whether it's with our e retailers, or whether it's with our D to C businesses, which we have skin care brands and our skin health division, PCA Skin, L to MD, Philorga, those are all online direct to consumer businesses. [00:02:51] So digital commerce runs the gamut, is my point. And strategically, it means we want to learn to do better. And I'll perform category and [00:03:00] market growth in that arena. The second big pillar of digital transformation is really making a step change in the way we plan, deploy, and use our digital media. So we are a business, as you said, grounded in many years of legacy, that has often been TV first and TV heavy, and that's no longer the case. [00:03:21] Colgate Palmolive globally is weighted over 65 percent in digital media at this point in time. So we have had to do a lot to upskill. Our teams and really make sure that our digital media is working every single dollar as best as we can. I'm very proud for the teams on the ground to say that the R. Y. S. [00:03:41] Have been very positive. And so that means we're really mastering how we do business in digital today. We want [00:03:46] Damian: We want to ask you a little bit about that upskilling later on in the podcast. But I wanted to have a quick question, you know, I'm talking about legacy brands. And I know that, just for instance, one of the toothpaste brands, Colgate's toothpaste [00:03:58] Brigitte: Yes. [00:03:59] Damian: it's about the most [00:04:00] famous toothpaste brand. [00:04:02] You get, how does better marketing or digital marketing even drive brand loyalty for say, those toothpaste customers? Aren't they already loyal? [00:04:11] Brigitte: Not all of them, right? So we have, of course, loyal Colgate users. We also have people who switch. and we have people to grow your brand that have to actually come in to the brand and to the category. [00:04:22] So if you think about, let's get pragmatic. You think about One of the, um, what we call need states of toothpaste is what do a lot of people want? Whiter teeth, right? So, they're looking for whitening products, whiter toothpaste that whiten. And what you see in search terms, is a lot around where the discovery journey begins. [00:04:43] And so you also can understand how they're searching. Well then, the job of a marketer today is not to only understand those trends and those keywords, but to develop the content. that is relevant to those search, behaviors that are going on. And then guess what? You have to then deploy the content [00:05:00] on all the right channels and in the right touch points to be present when the consumer is searching for information and researching about whitening, but then more importantly, how do you get into their consideration set, right? [00:05:12] Into the mental availability of, I'm interested, oh Colgate has something, let me go a little deeper here. And then the moment of truth online, right? Which is the moment of conversion. And I don't mind if they convert, and none of us do, right? On a physical shelf or a digital shelf. The point is to get their attention and to get into the consideration set. [00:05:33] to prove that you have great ratings and reviews, great product benefits that they're seeing on the PDP product detail pages, and you will move them to the point of conversion, be it physical or virtual. [00:05:44] Damian: I like that. [00:05:46] Brigitte: Yeah. Now, as [00:05:47] Ilyse: know, retail media is absolutely exploding and along with that retail data. How is retail data and the opportunity of RMNs helping you with more precise targeting of potential customers? So this [00:05:59] Brigitte: [00:06:00] So this is, you know, the, what I call the topic du jour, right? Retail media, networks and what's happening with the explosion of retail media. I'm very, pleased to say we're actually ahead of this curve. we are investing in retail media. [00:06:11] We are experimenting, with retail partners and it's an incredibly dynamic area. But you know, what's fascinating about it is it gives you closed loops. Sales, right? You can really go from attention to consideration to discovery, and you can basically close the loop and see, did what you do actually impact the bottom line or that final moment of truth? [00:06:34] So that's exciting. But I do want to say that even with the explosion of retail media, we are brand building for the long term, which means we have to think about how retail media works and plays in the larger holistic media planning process. So you really need to think about how you're growing your brand long term and not just on one person's retail media network. [00:06:56] Damian: That's interesting. [00:06:57] Ilyse: To what extent would you say it's like a [00:07:00] game changer for CPTs? I think it [00:07:02] Brigitte: I think it is. I think that it's got all this buzz for a reason, right? And I think it's because we can start to see closed loop sales attribution in ways that are much more difficult to track elsewhere. and you can really partner with retailers who are getting more and more sophisticated about their data sets and how they partner with brands and manufacturers to build businesses. [00:07:25] So in many ways, it can absolutely be a win win situation. but you also have to think about your brand long term and make sure you're not only looking to invest in one place or with one retailer. So we're learning a lot. We've got great partnerships with our retailers. They're leaning in. We're leaning in. [00:07:42] So it's an exciting time. [00:07:44] Ilyse: Is it helping to drive more, say, direct to consumer campaigns? And does Colgate Palmolive have any of those coming up or any successful ones under their belts as it is? [00:07:56] Brigitte: I think we've definitely, we're still in that experimenting stage. We're definitely [00:08:00] learning. but yeah, we have a strategic eye towards how we're going to do this and how we're going to make sure that we get to really drive traffic to our brands. and make sure that also our data gets smarter and more enriched as we go. [00:08:12] The whole point is to basically. Do for the consumer, meet their needs and meet them where they are and do what they need. And as you partner with your retailers, if you're both with that mindset, you generally make smarter decisions with your data. You mentioned, [00:08:25] Damian: you mentioned, you know, meeting the consumer where they are and also about the different nuances of brand building across all the different touch points.  [00:08:34] I know that e commerce is growing. There's a lot of talk about the importance of, commerce advertising, e commerce strategy, and how that engages the consumer. But that also impacts how creative rolls out in the end stage. is that something that's part of your consideration under your remit as a, as somebody who's transforming digital marketing for Colgate. [00:09:14] Brigitte: And the most fascinating thing about content today is it's truly being what I call atomized. You just need more of it faster all the time. You need to create it with velocity. and I always talk about the three V's volume, velocity and variety of content. You need that. So our team equally is trying to make sure we have the technology underpinnings and the infrastructure, to get content deployed at scale. [00:09:39] So that means using dams, digital asset management systems really well across our global organization. And that means, 200 countries and territories. It's no small project. And then really working on making sure it's content that is good. So first it's having it and deploying it correctly. [00:09:59] Then it's [00:10:00] making sure it's good content and good creative. So partners of ours that are really helping us score creative with AI and ML. So we really do know that it's tagged correctly, but that it's actually scored to win, and it's AB tested. [00:10:14] So all of those things are creating a sophistication now in our creative and content wheelhouse that allow us to get where we want to go. What you said, which sounds so easy. Content in the right place at the right time. Yeah, [00:10:25] Damian: how are you adapting your approaches across all these channels that you're talking about across, including the physical store? [00:10:33] Brigitte: So I think it's less about adapting. I think what we're doing is we're retrenching. We are making sure that we understand what is driving these categories. for consumers to begin with. So that means really good consumer decision journeys, studying those, making sure we have a very thorough grasp of the insights and the people centricity around those insights about why people are coming in, why people [00:11:00] are leaving, what they're looking for when they're there. [00:11:02] So if you think about it, you're retrenching into what I call good old fashioned consumer insights. And you're, but you're doing it in a new, way. You're doing quant data, qual data, you're doing digital data, you're doing social sentiment, you're getting an understanding of what's really happening. [00:11:17] And then you're looking to understand what your brand objectives are, or you're responsible for basically strategizing around those to meet the needs of the business. And then you plan your multi touchpoint channel strategy. So there's a lot of work. Diagnostic work that goes on before you ever get into which channel do you want to be on? [00:11:39] what are you trying to get done? it has to be thoughtful because as you know, there's never enough money to go around. and we need to make sure that every dollar we spend to build our brands now to meet both short term goals and long term goals is put in the right place with thoroughness and analytical skills and capabilities and insights. [00:12:00] Ilyse: Now, of ecommerce and retail data, we hear a lot of talk about the collapse of the marketing funnel, that merging, you know, of brand awareness and performance. [00:12:13] Do you have any good metaphors or perhaps models for the way marketing works or should work today? What was the good one that we've heard before, Damian? [00:12:23] Damian: infinity [00:12:24] Brigitte: Yes, the loop. I was going to talk about the loop and not the [00:12:28] Damian: Oh, I don't want to, you know, pre think. You say what comes to mind, what works for [00:12:33] Ilyse: I mean, we've heard, yeah, infinity loop or like black hole even. [00:12:39] Brigitte: So look, I, was trained as a classic brand marketer, and I've worked on digital, for most of the second half of my career, shall I say? So I'm very conscious of, there is a lot to say about the funnel and that it is true, right? The funnel exists for a reason. and it was. [00:12:57] Classified that way because [00:13:00] you have to start from a place of awareness to get to consideration of your brand, to get to purchase, and then to ideally get to loyalty, right? We call that ACPL at Colgate. But I think what's really unique now is you can't just care about awareness. You have to care about getting attention. [00:13:16] And you can't just care about being considered. You have to be in the consideration set. with a lot of different things that affect it now than before. Before it was manufacture a message out. Now, people are reading ratings and reviews. So, as I said earlier on whitening, if they don't read positive ratings and reviews on whitening, I'm going to fall out of the consideration set. [00:13:39] And purchase, used to be fundamentally, the zero moment of truth was at the physical shelf in the store. That's no longer just the case. So the moment of truth can happen anywhere, and on any platform. And, right, it's not just e comm. It's also checking out on, TikTok, and being able to [00:14:00] purchase on social channels. [00:14:02] And that has also changed the mix because a brand now has to exponentially be better and present in all of those places.  [00:14:09] but you raised a really good question around how do you think about brand and performance. And I think that they're very different and we, I've seen a lot of studies and I've read a lot about People talking about let's go back to just the basics of brand marketing. [00:14:24] and then there's a lot of people who are just diehards on performance marketing is where it's at, right? It's data driven, it's got KPIs, you can see things working in real time. I think you need a blend of both. I think that what you really have to be doing today, whether you're driving a digital transformation, marketing or a business transformation in general, you need to be balancing all the time. [00:14:46] And for me, it is striking the balance, I think about a seesaw. Really between brand on one side, performance, brand marketing on one side, performance marketing on the other, and instead of one tipping too far, [00:15:00] balancing the two. I think that's how you get to both short and long term brand building. [00:15:04] Damian: perfect. I love that. That's a new one. [00:15:06] Ilyse: Yeah, that's a good one. That's [00:15:06] Brigitte: right, it's not a loop, it's a seesaw. [00:15:10] Ilyse: now, speaking of like the marketing mix, to what extent are digital channels like connected TV and, of course, ad tiers on streaming platforms important to that marketing mix? I know even with like retail now and retail media, it's, as far as, identity and everything, retail and CTV are kind of merging together as well. [00:15:36] as channels that are almost uniquely suited for each other, in a sense, but curious what you have to say about that. Look, [00:15:44] Brigitte: I think media has changed so much and everyone is trying to keep up and make sure that we understand what I call where the eyeballs are going. And I think that CTV specifically is, as you know, um, Growing exponentially. A lot of investment going in that [00:16:00] area. And we are as well experimenting there, and we have a lot of brands who have invested in connected TV because it's more data driven. [00:16:09] It's addressable, it's targeted, and we can see how it performs. And generally, again, we measure our ROIs against all of our touch points and we have found it is very performant. So we will continue to invest there. It's bringing new people into our brands, Hills specifically, pet food for Colgate. We do a lot of CTV and it's, performing really well for them. [00:16:33] So we're really learning how to do what I would call data driven decision making, data driven targeting. and get the measurement that proves that cycles really working for us, and it's been terrific. I mean, Colgate as one of the classic CPGs. That's hundreds of years old. actually recently posted, 9. [00:16:52] 8 percent organic sales growth. So we really are driving the base business with a lot of these new strategies. [00:16:58] Damian: And from your point of view, [00:17:00] I'm assuming that measurement portion is better. Is just the accuracy of the measurement is getting better. The data signals are getting better. Yes, absolutely. But it's also giving [00:17:11] Brigitte: everyone a whole lot more data to have to handle, hygienate, stitch together and master. And that's the complexity in a lot of this as well. And these transformations always have what I call a lot of data exhaust, a lot of data spinoff, and you have to be equipped in your organization to start mastering and managing that kind of data. [00:17:33] Ilyse: What kind of data? Like, where does it go? it sounds like trash you just like have to take out.  [00:17:42] Brigitte: So, we are, definitely looking to make sure that we put our data in a data cloud. we are looking at consumer data platforms, CDPs, because we do understand that's a place where we can stitch data together to give us a better view of the consumer. [00:17:56] We're strategizing around, unknown and [00:18:00] known data sets. first party, second party, third party data. So all of those things are coming together, strategically for us to be able to drive data driven marketing. [00:18:14] Damian: upskilling your employees. And this comes at a time when there's a ton of emphasis on AI, you know, as a friend or a foe. So, why is that important to you to place that emphasis on the people who work, in the company? Why is digital upskilling such an important, job, I guess, for you? [00:18:33] Brigitte: So it's the beginning of the whole conversation. there is a need to make sure that all of our employees around the world have access to continuous improvement and upskilling and learning. And so as we drove a digital transformation, we needed to bring everybody along with the journey. But nobody can come along if they don't understand some of the basics and the principles, not just the why of what we're doing, but the what it means. [00:18:58] So Colgate Palmolive [00:19:00] invested a lot of time and money into upscaling its own employees. And then we did, fun stuff. We badged people who took X amount of courses. we allowed them to post that on LinkedIn, because they should be proud of upscaling themselves. And it's really good for their careers and their own self development. [00:19:17] But it's also a dynamic for creating change, right? Because as you learn more, you can actually make different decisions Transcribed Act differently. Ask the right questions. Push your teams to make sure we are competing and marketing in a digital age effectively for our brands. So upskilling was everything for us. [00:19:35] and it's really also about Colgate's belief that we should invest back in our employees. this is about raising all boats. So as I also drove a digital transformation, I recruited a lot of talent into Colgate Palmolive, but equally important to all of us was upskilling the teams that we had. [00:19:52] It's reassuring to hear at a time [00:19:54] Damian: a time when, you know, there's all this chat about AI, but it's nice to hear. [00:19:57] Damian: And [00:20:00] that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:20:04] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:11] Damian:  And remember, I'm Damian. [00:20:13] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:20:14] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Josef Najm, director of programmatic and partnerships at Thomson Reuters, and Mibbie Plouvier, head of global programmatic strategy at SAS, join The Current Podcast to describe how their partnership has evolved and how trust plays an important part in that evolution.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing, and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week, we're excited to be joined by two guests. Joseph Najim, Director of Programmatic and Partnerships at Reuters, And Mivi Plouvier, Head of Programmatic at software company SAS. [00:00:17] Ilyse: Together we'll explore the publisher and advertiser dynamic at a time when some advertisers remain cautious about appearing alongside certain types of news. The business model for news is under pressure and publishers are looking for better ways to monetize their journalism with effective ads. We'll dive into why things may be changing for the better. [00:00:36] Recent research indicates that it's safer for brands to advertise next to quality journalism, regardless of the news topic. Reuters, in 1851 and owned by Thomson Reuters, is one of the world's largest publishers, with journalists in over 200 locations writing in 16 different languages. SAS sits at the intersection of data [00:01:00] and AI. [00:01:01] Delivering analytical insights to brands. We kick off things with Joseph and Miby describing how they first met and how their partnership has evolved since then. [00:01:11] Ilyse: It's so great to have you here today. First off, how did you first meet and how would you describe how your partnership has evolved?  [00:01:20] Joseph: Great. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. maybe and I met about five years ago when I joined Reuters coming from the buy side, I was just leaving a stint at Diageo and, coming in as the programmatic sales specialist at the time, maybe was working in Paris and she was, I believe, the global programmatic lead and everyone was just like, “Hey, programmatic guy, this is a programmatic person.” [00:01:41] I think you should connect with them. And at the time, we were doing some business with SAS, or maybe a little bit. And hearing that she was from Paris. and also knowing that I had worked at L'Oreal. I wanted to connect with her from like a French connection perspective and also knowing that she was American. [00:01:55] So I shot her an email reaching out and asking her some questions like how things were going.  [00:02:00] Mibbie: It was a fun connection. because I was new to Paris. And Joseph reached out and was telling me all these fun, French antidotes of how Parisians and French people are more like coconuts, and Americans are more like peaches. And it was a great analogy to start the intro, but we've had a great relationship [00:02:17] Joseph has been resilient and calling on our business and the more in trust we built up, the greater the partnership has become and we've been able to do some really great things together.  [00:02:27] Ilyse: guess it is like a pretty small world programmatic,  [00:02:33] Ilyse: so it's no secret that the publishing industry is under quite a lot of pressure along with the eventual death of cookies. One issue publishers continue to come across are brands avoiding advertising on news for concerns around brand safety. [00:02:49] Now, these concerns have been challenged as of a May study from Stagwell that found that even ads next to hot button topics performed as effectively as those appearing next to [00:03:00] news, like sports and entertainment. Can you give us some context around what you're seeing on this topic?  [00:03:07] Joseph: Yes, this is a very important topic, and being at Reuters now for five years, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of different brand briefs and questions that come in around [00:03:17] how can we partner together? And in 2020, this kind of all came to a head when COVID and the pandemic took place. So what we found was, a lot of advertisers turn to the solutions that they have around. Advertising, ad tech platform, blocking tools like keyword lists, pre bid filters, monitoring tags, blocking tags, blocking words like COVID, China, Wuhan. [00:03:38] And then it just precipitated after that. and almost The spiral effect because the news cycle and [00:03:42] the realities of that was happening continued. So, just in the year of 2020, so much happened. whether it was George Floyd's murder, the beginning of the Black Lives Matter. movement. the, the election, as well. A lot of people forget the election took place there, too. And now, four years later, history is continuing in this really [00:04:00] real time. Just to kind of put it into a global perspective, two thirds of the world's democratic populations are going to the polls. this year, not just the U S and a lot of people just think it's the U S, but really important countries like Taiwan, for example. and we're covering that. and we're also covering two global world conflicts. Israel and Gaza, as well as Russia and Ukraine. [00:04:18] when we're doing all this, it costs a lot of money and it's important to find brand partners that are willing, to support trusted journalism and at the same time understand that when they're partnering with news publishers, that audience that they're reaching is a really important audience, It's an attentive audience, an audience that's willing to engage. [00:04:37] I always like to think back, like, when the pandemic happened, where did we all turn? We turned to the news. And I'm really appreciative of a lot of these studies that are coming out with Stagwell, for example, but even going back to 2020, released this Trust HALO report, 84 percent of consumers had a positive or neutral impact when they saw an ad adjacent to a trusted source. And I fast forward to now and folks are talking about Gen z audience and trying to reach [00:05:00] that audience. Gen Z cares about the facts. They care about trust. So, finding partnership with SAS and being able to present this audience and showing that you can have ad adjacency next to the hard news and reach that audience has been leading to successful business outcomes for both of us. [00:05:14] And It's really been great partnering with Mibbie on those activations. [00:05:18] Mibbie: and then from our perspective, I'd say I think it's easy to find comfort in blocking certain words. but. What we like to do is partner with trusted news sources and award winning news sources because we know that no matter what news they're reporting upon, our brand is going to be safe around it. And we know that we're [00:05:35] going to be okay, no matter what the news is. And I think with the current news cycle and how constant it is, you could almost just go down a rabbit hole of blocking everything. So from our perspective, it was let's partner with key publishers, that we can trust and then we don't have to worry as much about trying to continue to block things or worry about. Being somewhere we don't want to be.  [00:05:55] Ilyse: and on that point though, even like the bad news, [00:05:59] I don't think it, [00:06:00] it doesn't hurt your brand as research has shown. and brands are still very fearful about that. Was that your original, like, hesitancy in advertising or? It Okay.  [00:06:12] Mibbie: it's, we take the security and knowing how, brands how we're going to be around the right kind of content and Reuters reports on the news in a very fair way. So for us, even if it's bad news, we're okay with being there. [00:06:26] it took a while to get there internally, but that was several years ago and I think it was around COVID when everybody was a little fearful of the news, but we're very confident with the partners we have. and for us, it was also how can we make these things happen programmatically. Because [00:06:43] we can buy things a lot easier. and more smoothly if it's through our platforms. So that was, Reuters was very good about helping us out in that sense too. Yeah,  [00:06:51] Joseph: I think, it goes back to the consultative approach. [00:06:53] when I first presented to SAS and to maybe, in team. It was always with the thinking of, okay, [00:07:00] culture. Just like Reuters. We have a history. They have a history of innovation too. And at the end of the day, as maybe said, the fairness of how we go to report that unbiased nature, it really creates, and fosters an environment for  [00:07:12] Trust with the audience, trust with the content. So when they have a trusted message, that they're really trying to deliver to that audience. we just knew that it was going to be a perfect synergy between the two. so I really never had. concerns, but I will say, and this is the importance of kind of stepping in and having that partnership with that publisher partner, that news publisher partner. [00:07:30] If the situation gets a little bit out of control, from a hard news perspective, it's important for the news publisher to step in and say, hey, maybe we don't run this campaign right now, but we will come back and we'll make sure that the creative message is appropriate to what's taking place, but also at the same time, hey, we're going to, we're going to protect your brand. [00:07:47] And I think in some cases, we're you know, it happened, for example, with Applebee's, running against the CNN, ad when, I think it was Russia and ukraine, combat was starting to happen. [00:07:57] And, what came from it was some rhetoric [00:08:00] around, you know, we don't want to be around that content. and why, could that have been shut off? And I don't know the full schema behind it, but I really do think it wasn't the intention for CNN to run an Applebee's ads there. [00:08:11] But that ad and went to supporting journalism and supporting that, that moment in time that if people a lot of people were looking at,  [00:08:16] And my hope is, like, a brand like Apple Lee's, we'll find a way to come back to running on news again and not say, Hey, we're gonna shut it down and continue not running there.  [00:08:25] Ilyse: saying, hey, we're to shut it down and continue. Yeah, I do think  [00:08:47] Joseph: Yeah, so I do think there's a little bit of foundation of a fear strategy here, and I think that strategy unfortunately comes from, the fear of the screenshot, [00:08:57] for example, and what that might lead to. [00:09:00] and, when it comes to exclusion lists, I think one of the funniest things I recently heard was a certain agency had an exclusion list Or their exclusion list, which kind of speaks to a problem in itself, where if you're applying words like people's beliefs, religions, communities, whole countries, et cetera, you really run into a situation where Is that appropriate? [00:09:21] For your media campaigns, and your paid campaigns? to me, understanding that brand, and like doing my research when I go to pitch, it's recognizing what is in your keywords doesn't really reflect what your brand is trying to promote from a communication style as well. but I think maybe he has some specifics if you want to share from your side. [00:09:38] we've been chatting about this a little bit, but they're pretty good. They're relevant to the French culture as well. [00:09:43] Mibbie: well. Yeah, I think it's, lose a lot of context when you block keywords. And at some point, when Notre Dame. you know, was on fire and burning. A lot of people were blocking Paris. [00:09:54] They were blocking fire. and now if you don't go back and revisit those lists and you continue to just have. [00:09:59] these long [00:10:00] lists of blocks, you're missing out on Olympics coverage. With the Olympic torch, with the flame, with even the Paris coverage. So there's a lot that if it's not completely maintained, I think it's a hard kind of road to continue to go down because you, there's a never ending way to go if you keep blocking and blocking. [00:10:17] So I think that's where you should go more, the curvation route. And that's the route we've gone is to. Curate our sites, curate who we're working with, and so then it's not as fearful, and you don't get that email to your CEO, which had happened, and it comes down to you, if you're at the screenshot, and then you have to say, that's a good point. [00:10:33] Why are we here? Why are we running there? [00:10:34] so it, sometimes it says hard lessons that make you rethink how you're blocking things. and the approach you're going to have [00:10:41] Joseph: want to bring up AI here because, in a sense, I feel like potentially it could help eventually with, something like keywords. Maybe with marketers, maybe it's a chance to like, actually use it to run through keywords really fast and see if it's, actually gonna [00:11:00] actually with terms that aren't like several years outdated or something like that. [00:11:05] Ilyse: what do you think?  [00:11:07] Mibbie: I think it's only going to help our business and help speed the process to your point of going through those massive lists and staying active with what's constantly changing like the news. So I only think it's going to benefit us, but I think AI in general across the programmatic landscape is going to be a benefit instead of more of a hindrance that some people might think it might be. [00:11:29] Joseph: Yeah, a AI is unique because there's generative AI and then there's AI. And I think in the programmatic space, we've been playing with AI a lot. like Machine learning, algorithms, the ability to, target the person, right place, right time, right message, [00:11:41] that's all AI. And I think the tools that publishers are now getting, that maybe they weren't always accustomed to having, or the ease of being able to, check things, or recategorize things or work with their product leads to say, Hey, what is happening here in the bid stream? That's going to come out more to make a cleaner path, [00:12:00] and make sure that the buy side is really saying, Okay, let's triage it, maybe. [00:12:03] Let's say, okay, if this is Reuters, and a trusted brand, and good to go. But okay, next word that pops up, Okay, maybe it's related to this, but because Reuters, still okay. I don't think those solutions exist. [00:12:14] They're A little bit more potential blankets, but with AI you have to understand the risks too. And I think in a gen AI world, working at a news publisher, it's also really important to understand like I sit on the commercial side. [00:12:25] So my uses of AI and generative AI are going to, be different than the editorial team. [00:12:30] And it's important to make sure this is anyone that's on the new side like what is your AI and gen AI policies because you don't want there to be conflict with your editorial team and commercial team. But you do want to promote. innovation at the same time.  [00:12:43] Ilyse: now I want to talk a little bit about the campaign that you actually ran, and that you pushed through all that hesitancy for, and then maybe if you could share some of the results you saw from that.  [00:12:56] Mibbie: so we've been doing a lot of great testing with Reuters, [00:13:00] so the baseball campaign was a great example because we owned all their coverage of the World Series, which was great for us as a brand to know that. We're there all the way through the end, and it was a good series. But then we've also been doing some testing with Reuters with linked in. So they've been contextually making videos for us around a I specifically in our ads are surrounding that, and we've seen, massive increase in our click through rate, exceeding benchmarks, great view through completion. So it's partnering, in very smart ways And being able to test together that I think we've seen. a lot of great success. and we're also running on their YouTube. channel. So another great way to keep our ads in a brand safe environment on Reuters YouTube instead of all over the place how YouTube can be. So that was a new strategy that we tested together as well. [00:13:45] And we also had audio with Alexa and Google Home. So, when you ask Google Home what the news is for the day. our ad would run before that. And that was a great, Great way of just getting our brand out there and getting some more awareness of who we are. And The great point of that too is [00:14:00] we were able to buy that programmatically. So a lot of these things that necessarily some publishers wouldn't let us buy programmatically. we were able to run with Reuters programmatically, so that made things a lot more smoother. [00:14:10] Joseph: Because of Miby's ad tech stack, we have the ability to front the costs via the impression delivery and the cost per day for an activation. And then, as a publisher, behind The scenes, you just have to work. through your finance team to how you're going to fund those projects and support the teams. But The LinkedIn Wire program. It's a really great success story of how you can combine really great content from a news publisher, and this is all editorial content. So nothing was created bespoke It was just around the same coverage that our editorial teams would be doing for AI. The message that maybe was trying to deliver and SAS team was trying to deliver plus the LinkedIn data that was tied to it as well And All of those things, and I think this also comes into Challenging your partner is It came to a pretty high CPM and costs, but It's the old adage, of kind of, what you get what you pay for And I think the return and what they [00:15:00] saw in the engagement And how it compared was really great. And What I also like about being at a publisher for five years but also having this ad tech background is the way I approach a partner like sass is, hey, we're omni channel. Like you think omni channel and, infinite places, but you could work with one partner in an omni channel approach, and this is very much that and some. So, it's been really great partnering with Vivian sass to really test these different things and be innovative. It's fun.  [00:15:24] Ilyse: finally, to both of you, are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund, oh, Are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund journalism at this moment? [00:15:42] Joseph: There's a lot That's being done in the right way in the smart way. But it's also [00:15:47] important to, take stock of all the different revenue streams. So, subscriptions is very big. Diversification for news publishers. is very big gamification, right? All these different platforms. whether it be integrating [00:16:00] new, Sports solutions. or Content that's, again, related to lifestyle. But not every news publisher is built And runs their business in the same way. So it's important to recognize even the local hub news publisher who's covering the beat of something that's taking place. They're at risk to their risk of funding. And there's like this slippery slope where when it hits them, those impacts might not be felt when I'm living in New York City or in [00:16:26] other places. But those local communities, So, I think the onus is on this industry of how we can get back out there. And There are definitely ad tech companies are trying to do that and funnel those dollars there. And You see even the promotion of like new technologies with that. Trade Desk and Adfuntus Media, which hopefully will drive those revenues to those smaller news publishers. [00:16:48] But, you know, at the same time, we're challenged. Whether it's ads, coming from brands, but then even certain algorithm changes that are impacting business lines that had seven figure revenue streams. You're seeing it across [00:17:00] the board. So, I think the stress is real. I think The stress is real for a lot of people. But it's important that, you know, we keep innovating and finding brand partners like SAS to come to the table to speak about how we can is good and you can find opportunity in hitting that audience and driving ROI and driving performance. [00:17:17] That will only help. and hopefully it trickles down to the small guys too.  [00:17:23] Ilyse: Joseph, what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand issue? what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand safety issue, but more that their audience just isn't there? [00:17:40] That's a lot of, young readers, Gen Z ears are finding their news on TikTok and only TikTok. what would you say to them? I know it like can lion, for instance, a few months ago, McDonald's CMO. for instance, said that,  [00:17:56] get our audience there and we'll bring [00:18:00] back the money. We'll put the money there.  [00:18:03] Joseph: No, it's a great question, and I don't think they're wrong. I do think, however, the communication is not there, and, the insight that the Gen Z audience, whether it be Gen Z adults or younger Gen Z, are getting their information. from TikTok is very accurate. we've done that same report, at the Reuters Institute, which partners with Oxford, released that same study last year, and the new results are going to come out soon, to see how those channels are resonating with younger audiences. [00:18:27] But, I asked a simple question, right? Like when the pandemic happened, where did people go? They went to news sites. They went to understand and get facts and information to inform the decisions that they were making, whether it be a mom who's worried about her children and going to school or the professional and the markets and how it's being affected. [00:18:45] Now, Gen Z, just because they go to TikTok first doesn't mean they stop there. I'm sure they have their trusted sources. And I think the challenge is Hey, brands. [00:18:53] You're only giving me 20 minutes to pitch, and it's very transactional right now when it comes to display ads [00:19:00] and video ads, audio ads, whatever it might be. Where's the opportunity to be consultative? Give us that platform. Let us have that. discourse. because Right now, the discourse that comes up is, we're just like, a no news. I don't think that's the case. If you ask any brand like, no, we support news. So how do we get them from saying, yes, we support news, but to, yes, we support news [00:19:19] and the end is that should be filled in by us. How are we going to do something that's a little bit more innovative more creative to get them back into supporting that platform, But we all have the data to show those audiences are there, do we have the platform, however, to share that insight with them? That's something that needs to be rebuilt a little bit. And I think it's coming. there, though. And I think the events that happened in Cannes and the different studies that came out and rolled out are only going to help. And I really do appreciate that, that feedback. But, sitting as a challenger in that room, it's important to challenge. [00:19:51] Joseph: It's very easy to say no, someone, no to someone who's like a friend. And getting that kind of feedback and going back and forth, that's good. That's where the discourse started. [00:19:59] Ilyse: [00:20:00] Now, when it comes to advertising on news, what is the approach when it comes to a B2B company like SAS versus B2C or even D2C? How is it different?  [00:20:12] Mibbie: I think we just have to look at what we're trying to advertise and get our, awareness out there about, and we're selling a very high end software and for us, that relationship of. premiumness with publishers. and having that there. We're not chasing cheap clicks because we have a very long sales cycle. So when it comes to B2C, that somebody's going to see those shoes and go buy them, it's very different than making a long term decision to purchase the software. [00:20:38] So for us, we want to have that consistency with the brands and longevity more so than being kind of all over the place searching those cheap clicks or cheap impressions. [00:20:47] so We pay a little more just to to get that consistency, consistency to get that frequency, but also, we have to think about sales cycles. And So ours is very long, nine months to a year. So long enough to have a baby. so we really have to have that consistency [00:21:00] right of being in the same place and having that consistent message. [00:21:04] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:21:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:21:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:21:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:21:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:21:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

United recently launched Kinective Media, the airline industry's first media network. Its first-party data could change the future of people's travel experiences.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the current podcast this week we're delighted to talk with Mike Petrella, the managing director of partnerships at United airlines. In June, the airline launched a new initiative named connective media, which is the airline industry's first media network. [00:00:17] The network will use data from its customer profiles to create a personalized and immersive travel journey. This launch comes at a time when retail media networks have become one of the hottest topics in ad tech, allowing brand marketers to target consumers using retailers first party data. [00:00:35] We start by asking Mike about why United wanted to move in this direction.  [00:00:40] Damian: United's the first travel focused company to develop its own media network called Connective Media by United Airlines, and how is this a boon for the company and its flyers? [00:00:50] Mike: of course, so we consider ourselves a commerce media network, and we distinguish ourselves as a commerce media network. Given retail media, networks are typically point of [00:01:00] purchase, transaction based. The Commerce Media Network embraces the emotion, the journey, the feelings of all parts of the funnel. [00:01:08] So when you think about our users at time of planning, time of travel, [00:01:13] Damian: and signals [00:01:14] Mike: time of destination, even when they're not thinking about travel, we have 108 million profiles. And the beauty of our data is it's incredibly accurate. You have to be Damien to get on a plane. Your name has to be what it is, your address has to be correct, your phone number, and all the other information. [00:01:33] So the breadth of that information, coupled with the accuracy of it, gives us insights and signals that allow us to create these robust profiles of the user. And it's the user at all points. And the commerce nature of this isn't just a point of sale. We are not microtransactions on a consistent, on a constant basis. [00:01:54] Rather, we think about The interaction of the user at the time of [00:02:00] planning, top funnel. At the time of trip, or even time of purchase in an ancillary mindset. Purchase path typically generates a significant amount of revenue. Be it airline tickets, upgrades, any purchase path. [00:02:11] Regardless of whether it is airline ticket or if you're purchasing a ticket to an event, parking, whatever the case is. So for us, it's the ability to take that journey. To be able to identify when the right time to send the right message to the right user is. And that message could be an advertisement, it could be content, it could be nothing because it's not the right time. [00:02:35] But in each of these cases, you can make a use case for any and every brand based on the scale and depth of our data. [00:02:42] Damian: of our data. Fascinating. And you mentioned that long purchase journey, which is, sometimes it can be a long purchase journey, right? For air travel, or it could be short, but you do have a lot of scope within that context. [00:02:54] Mike: It is. I mean, very few people spontaneously book tickets to destinations, right? [00:02:59] And when [00:03:00] you're in that mindset, you're in a planning mindset, not only of the journey, but think about the insights and intelligence we can extract from the signals we receive to say, Well, this person happens to frequent a specific hotel chain, a car rental chain, a ride share company, when they land, they frequent a food delivery service. [00:03:21] Endemic, but then you think the non endemic piece. And this is the beauty of what we do. The lines of endemic and non endemic are completely blurred. To me at least. Because I think about, when you get on a plane, you may be traveling home to return to normality. Which takes you to food shopping, which takes you to the pharmacy, which takes you to the laundromat. [00:03:39] But my point is, I think the idea of always coupling a travel endemic brand or journey with the traveler is only a piece of it. be it on the road or at home. [00:03:50] I may go see a music event. I may go purchase music. I might play music. I may eat pizza. I will eat pizza just to be clear. But my point is, my behaviors [00:04:00] There are some that are going to be unique based on my journey, and others that are going to overlap with when I'm traveling for leisure, when I'm home. [00:04:08] And so, I love the fact that just, we can essentially meet the interests of the customer, which is the centric piece of this, and provide value to our partners as well. [00:04:21] Damian: It's a very clear example of how non endemic works in a retail media network, I think, because, you know, when you think about other retail media networks, often think about the retailer and what it sells, but, you know, with United, it's a different story. [00:04:34] Mike: Yeah, it's the breath of commerce, and that's what I enjoyed. That was like when I came here, it was eye opening. I had an idea, right? But just to see what we can do and really the validation of just how strong our data is and how valuable it is from a customer standpoint. When I say valuable to the customer, it is to spoon feed customers based on their interests. [00:04:57] Cafeteria style doesn't work. There are too many choices. [00:05:00] So if you're in a planning phase and we can bring about certain things that are of, normality to you, booking a restaurant, booking a golf reservation, simply as getting my ride share, it makes the journey easier. It makes it feel like it's Damien Fowler's journey, not just a customer who purchased a seat in one of our planes. [00:05:20] Damian: Yeah, I love that. And I just want to take that point a little bit further. Can you give some more examples of how, you work with brands, whether endemic or, when I say endemic, that would be travel related, right? Or not. and where that media might appear. [00:05:34] Mike: Sure. So today we are, our media network extends from our dot com, our in app, we have digital signage within the airports, be it in our clubs and lounges, gate information displays, on our planes we have in flight entertainment, or we call IFE, or personal device entertainment on your phone, and so as part of United Next, we made an investment to purchase north of [00:06:00] 800 planes. [00:06:01] And within each of those planes, they will be outfitted with the new IFE system. It's meant to be more of an OTT experience versus the current experience, which quite frankly is, it's legacy, it's the 1950s. It's a small screen with limited choices and it's not what we're used to. we envision this opportunity to have a very personalized experience in which you will have your interests displayed on that screen and every person's screen will be different. [00:06:28] Based on that individual. And so, for us, we will be retrofitting our current fleet, with the exception of a couple planes that will be retired over time. And so, over time, we will have screens in all planes on a, personalized basis. And so, for us too, it's, you extend past that, you have email and such. [00:06:47] It's a true omni channel offering, but most importantly, it's the engagement. We have an average of three and a half hour flight time. And so, when you're at home You can get up, use the restroom, go to the kitchen, whatever, if [00:07:00] a commercial comes on. You cannot do the same in a plane. At the same frequency. I mean, yes, you can get up, but the idea of having the ability to engage in an intimate and targeted manner with our users and to be able to show them things of their interest is huge. [00:07:16] Right? And then you think more, in lounges and clubs, It's not going to be personalized. If Damien walks in, if you walk into the club, you don't want to see. Hello, Damon. How are you? Do you need a new green shirt? That's creepy, right? Yes. So again, there's you can think about. the business traveler travels from Monday at 5 a. [00:07:35] m. to 11 a. m. and Thursdays from 4 to 7. So perhaps we put advertisers endemic to that audience. Families travel on weekends and these are generalities. But through research and through signals, we can begin to capture that. And again, the right message at the right time. [00:07:50] Damian: What customer insights will help connect brands with United Flyers? [00:07:54] Mike: So we capture over 120 targetable segments, or signals, I should say. And that [00:08:00] is, a mix of attitudinal, behavioral, lifestyle, and transactional. And today, our audience indexed to the highly affluent individual. Married, college educated, homeowner, household income of 250, 000 plus. And so you'll see in some of our launch partners, Bottega Veneta, which is a luxury brand, McAllen's, a higher end Scotch. [00:08:21] Very good for that audience, but at the same time, we are very diverse in terms of who is on our plane. We, our launch partner was Televisa Univision. 25 percent of the Chicago population is Hispanic. Is it 63 million, Spanish speaking, Americans in the U. S., right? So the idea of just focusing on one demographic doesn't do anyone justice. [00:08:45] very much. Right? Again, speaks to that scale of data. And so, we, there's a use case for every single brand, every single opportunity. We [00:08:56] Damian: that nuance that you can bring to it, to [00:09:00] advertising, is obviously key to this. what strategies is Connective employ to personalize ads and offer that to these different segments? [00:09:08] We are a very privacy centric, privacy [00:09:10] Mike: privacy safe, conservative approach to what we're doing. We sit atop GAM. we work with, a number of clean rooms. any and everything we do is meant to uphold the integrity of that customer's data. we will never sell the data as a stand alone. It'll always be wrapped with media on a managed basis. [00:09:31] And I say that because the sale of data opens up opportunity for bad actors. Then there are bad actors out there. So when it comes down to it You know, we want to ensure that we are keeping our customers, information, and privacy at the forefront. And then, any and everything we do is in a compliant way. [00:09:51] Data collaborations through clean rooms, proper encryption at all specific times, proper measurement and verification. it's a textbook [00:10:00] approach, knowing full well that,  [00:10:04] Mike: party data is currency, you have to protect it, and you have to use it in the right manner. [00:10:09] Damian: And it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. [00:10:20] Mike: It's been overwhelming, honestly. I used to work, I helped startup advertising. com a long time ago, and all its brand names up through Yahoo. And I was always the one vying for a brand's business. To work on a brand site now has been an eye opening experience because you have the problem of choice. And the reception to what we've been doing has been incredibly positive. [00:10:44] and it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. The work that we did is interesting. but we have to be smart in terms of who we work with. I would say the outreach from partners, we always want to maintain a very premium nature for any owned [00:11:00] and operated supply. I think it's important. [00:11:02] Again, the brand integrity for United is paramount. but at the same time, as I said earlier, there's a use case for all brands. And we're always open to exploration and conversations. And then making the right choice based on United brand, based on the value for our customers and for the overall business. [00:11:21] Damian: Now travel has skyrocketed since pandemic times, and that's been well reported. Can you describe the change United has seen more generally in people coming back to the skies? [00:11:32] Mike: the largest airline in the U. S. right now. and it's, it's a great position to be in because people fly United for the experience. [00:11:39] We do not compete with low cost carriers. That's not our model. People fly for the convenience, for the experience, for the opportunity to increase their loyalty status, for the journey in itself. Our app is the number one rated app in the, in, of all airlines, and if you, you know, I'm not sure if you're a flyer or not, Thank you. [00:11:58] If you are [00:12:00] so you see that app is very intuitive in terms of my baggage goes here. My gate is here. And so against personalization, right? It may not be specific. Damien. This is your journey. Rather, you are flying at this airport. Here is where your luggage is. Here's where your gate is. And it's just it's taking those steps to just again lessen the hassle of travel. [00:12:19] And then, as you get on the plane, our flight attendants, our ground crew, our pilots are just top caliber. it's the friendliness that you see. again, the experience extends beyond [00:12:29] Damian: a traveler's standpoint. [00:12:30] Mike: Connected media provides an opportunity for us to gather what we have from our three core pillars. Travel, loyalty, and media. [00:12:39] And it's that flywheel. we are able to ingest signals based on the profiles that we have. And in doing so, you begin to see the traveler profile as it begins to matriculate to an actual loyalty partner. [00:12:52] 39 million mileage plus loyalty partners. We have a co brand card through Chase. Right. We have our mileage plus [00:13:00] partnerships team, and we think about that from the Avis's, the Marriott's, from a travel endemic standpoint, non endemic, even like the away, I guess away luggage is not therabody, things to that effect. [00:13:10] And so, the ability to accrue and redeem miles as transaction. And then, with the credit card, the ability to redeem miles, or accrue miles, I should say, through transactions. As you go through the flywheel, you come to the media piece, which is the connective tissue. To understanding the middle and lower funnel of that transaction, purchase point, brand affinity, options for our users. [00:13:33] And then back to the first part, the emotion, and the journey, and the actual travel. And as we do this flywheel, we have more travelers, which means more signals, which means more opportunities for media, which means more, and it's a self fulfilling flywheel that essentially, again, with the customer in the middle, or the customer is the focus, it's Creates that opportunity to your point of why people are flying more with United.[00:14:00]  [00:14:00] Damian: What kind of feedback have you had from those customers? what are people's experience, what are people experiencing and how are they setting that back to you? [00:14:08] Mike: think the best part is, they've come up and said I'm so excited you're doing this. Never would have thought of this. like you, you're hearing it from the horse's mouth, right? So there's, in an unbiased manner, what I'm most proud of is the fact that we've come out with a legitimate business with a very, very focused North Star, that is focused solely around the customer. [00:14:31] that's unique. And to bring it to market at the speed that we did. With the help that we had from partners and the support that we've had from the industry has been just, has been amazing. Now the [00:14:43] Damian: the idea now seems like a very good one. And you're describing, you're telling me, Mike, how quickly you brought it to market. What, in under a year, really? I mean, it's a good idea. Do you expect that other airlines are going to want to emulate, what you've done here with your media network? [00:14:59] Mike: is [00:15:00] a very savvy airline. They're a great airline. they're doing certain things [00:15:07] with the connect, that we're connecting. streaming from a device to their, seatback screens. They've done partnerships with Walmart Plus and such. Whether they come out with a full scale media network, I'm not sure. but, United and Delta are the top two airlines in the U. S. [00:15:22] And they are a very savvy brand. So, if they come out, I would not be, surprised. I don't know about the others. You know, for me, it's not one's better than the other. It's just where I see the next. In [00:15:35] Damian: In general, while we're on the topic of predictions, when you look ahead to the rest of this year and to next, as you build this offering out, what are the kind of trends you're looking for in terms of that merging of travel and media that you just talked about? The year into next, what trends are you all looking for? [00:16:09] Mike: It's really, when you and I grew up, you had to pay for HBO, you had to pay for ESPN. it's a similar model, and you're seeing consolidation and M& A start in that sector. There's too many choices for consumers. Today, there's 273 retail media networks. That is not scalable, right? Marketers and agencies already have too many choices to make. [00:16:30] and at the same time, the uniqueness of that data, depending on the sectors. It may not be all that unique. I do think there's going to be consolidation. There has to be. And for me, I would expect that. I think we're in a very good position just given the unique position that we're in. And quite frankly, like the three pillars, right? [00:16:53] Scale, accuracy, and omni channel. And we can say we have that with confidence. I would say like, [00:17:00] to your point of expectations, there has to be consolidation. I think the introduction of AI, it wouldn't be a podcast without saying AI. I've already said flywheel, if there's another one I need to say. [00:17:11] But I do think, the introduction of AI into not only the purchase path, but more importantly, the analytics. Right? Humans know which questions to ask. AI will figure out what other questions to ask. And as we constantly feed these models, you're going to have, just from an analytics standpoint, the ability to extract new data, new intelligence, new insights, and we want to be on the forefront there to ensure that, we modernize our offering at a pace that is quicker, than what the industry is seeing. [00:17:44] Damian: Do you anticipate that your media network and what you're offering might have some kind of partnerships with some of those streaming platforms? I'm just thinking. Yeah, it's my job. So, [00:17:54] Mike: So, like, I do. I think there's opportunity for partnership. Yeah. it's the many versus the [00:18:00] power of one. [00:18:00] Damian: Yeah.  [00:18:01] Mike: You have to be selective, right? If you partner with everyone, you partner with no one. So, I think there's opportunities in the travel space. I do think there's opportunities in the non endemic space, too. We're at really early stages, so Honestly, platform side, I'm not used to this much attention. [00:18:21] and I love it. And we brought friends in to build this business. I'm working with my friends. I absolutely love it. And so together we're kind of sitting down and putting our heads together and say, okay, like we got to the starting line. We bust out our asses for nine months and we got to the starting line. How do we run this race and always be the leader? Because there's going to be people coming up after us. And that challenge with one another is great because we're pushing one another to be better. And it's not intense in the sense that like, any conversations with emotion are meant for constructive and collaboration. [00:18:57] And I think we're all being better because we're constantly pushing [00:19:00] one another. But more importantly, we're supporting one another. [00:19:02] Damian: Yeah. you do see some relationships with broadcasters, with in flight entertainment, but I imagine this is going to go. To a different level. [00:19:11] Mike: this is the early stage of the business. This is the exciting part. we're the bright, shiny object right now, and I think it's good to revel in that just to pat yourself on the back and say, Hey, we did it. [00:19:22] But realistically, like complacency doesn't get you anywhere, right? So everyone else has got has gotten to the starting line. There's been 273 other companies that got to the starting line, and some are running the race faster than others, and some are not even on the same course anymore. so for us, I think it's about heads down, and just constantly push. [00:19:42] And to be the best, [00:19:49] Damian: is highly competitive. Do you feel the pressure? [00:19:53] Mike: I don't feel the pressure from the industry. I feel the pressure to deliver. Like, me personally, I hold the bar very [00:20:00] high for myself, and I'm my worst critic. I know what it's like to be successful. I helped launch advertising. com and I can tell you those first five years were by far like the highlight of my life from a professional standpoint. [00:20:11] these last nine months are on par with that. And if I can make the next four years and three months the same or better, I'm going to do everything I can to do it. And if there's 23 years, 18 more years to follow that, great. I hope to retire at some point in my life. But, um, I'm just excited because. [00:20:30] This is real. And it's good. And, will be responsible for our success. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it.  [00:20:37] Damian: thank you so much for these insights. It's been great. [00:20:40] Mike: to speak with you, Damian. Thank you.  [00:20:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:20:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:20:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:53] Damian: . And remember, I'm Damian. [00:20:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:20:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please [00:21:00] subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Wayfair Head of Brand Marketing Kara O'Brien joins The Current Podcast to discuss blending the in-store and digital shopping experience. Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Ilyse: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kara O'Brien, Head of Brand Marketing and Analytics at Wayfair. [00:00:11] Ilyse: For years, Wayfair has been an online one stop shop for people looking for everything from beds to couches to kitchen appliances. In fact, for those browsing home goods, the choices often seem endless. [00:00:23] Damian: I know, because I've spent many long hours looking for the perfect bathroom cabinet to fit into my tiny New York apartment. But seriously though, one of the big draws for Wayfair has always been its reasonable prices for its products. [00:00:35] Ilyse: Wayfair is famous as an e commerce platform, but now that's changing. In May, the company opened its first brick and mortar store. start by asking Kara about why the company made this move. [00:00:47] Ilyse: First, I believe congratulations are in order because Wayfair opened its first brick and mortar store back in May. [00:00:54] So, why don't you walk us through the decision to make the leap into a physical storefront?[00:01:00]  [00:01:00] Kara: Absolutely We are so excited about this milestone. It's something that's been a long time coming. I personally have been at Wayfair for 10 years, and it has been one of the peak moments of my time there to see our brand come to life physically. so why now? I mean, our ethos has always been to deliver the best possible experience for our customer, and now we want to really be able to do it however they shop and however they choose to shop. [00:01:24] And so to be able to bring the It's a product to the customer. Let them see it in person, help guide them through the purchasing process. It's it makes a ton of sense. And, consumer demand has shifted so much during and since the pandemic, there was, pretty strong move to buying these more considered purchases online when people had no option to go in store. [00:01:46] But, now we're seeing the pendulum swing back and the consumer preference is to have a mix, to have a balance, to be able to see things in person, but have the convenience of being able to shop and research from home.  [00:01:57] Ilyse: Yes, now I know I'm, I have an apartment in New York and i've spent too many hours on Wayfair, probably. [00:02:03] Kara: - love to hear that. [00:02:04] Ilyse: but why did you land on Wilmette, Illinois for this touch point? And how are you bringing the brand to life in store? [00:02:12] Kara: Yeah, to start with Wilmette, I think there's two big considerations that ended up there. one is convenience. And so we really want to make shopping for your home as easy as possible. It's a process. It's something that's so important to so many people. [00:02:25] And so we don't want the process itself to feel onerous. And so for us, we had found this wonderful space. It's in a revitalized shopping center. It's surrounded by suburbs with lots of young families who are really kind of our core customer. And then the access to the broader Chicagoland, uh, area was fantastic. [00:02:45] So that's always been a strong market for us. But more on the business side, it's, It's very well positioned within our logistics network, and to kind of come back to that idea of convenience, we can ship products to, directly to customers home instead of trying to fit something [00:03:00] large and bulky in the back of your trunk. [00:03:02] And so we're able to do that fast, free, easy, when they've seen something in store or if they've explored beyond. [00:03:10] Ilyse: mortars follow or? [00:03:12] Kara: I think that's the idea eventually, but I think one thing we're really trying to do is learn at being an e commerce company. First, there's so much one way conversation that you have with the customer through your marketing, through your site. This is an opportunity to have that two way conversation. [00:03:28] And, we recognize we're new to the space. We're going to learn a ton and hopefully be able to apply that [00:03:34] Ilyse: what  [00:03:34] Damian: to what extent does the physical store help build the brand perception? And I know you sort of touched on that, but what I'm interested in is, it's known as an e commerce platform, and here you are now building out a physical store. [00:03:46] So What does that do? How does that help? [00:03:49] Kara: Yeah, well, I think it's rooted in who we were as an e commerce company, right? We have so many different types of products. We have, tens of millions of products on site. [00:04:00] And so the challenge at hand was really how do you take that vast selection and put it into a box, right? You can only put a finite number of products in. [00:04:08] And so for us, what we were really trying to solve for is how do you at Google Demonstrate that breadth, but still assist people through that purchasing process so that they can find that thing they were looking for, even if they didn't even know they wanted it. And so a lot of our philosophy was we want to be able to give you departments that are specific to a space, but we also wanted to have a through line that We're specific to your style. [00:04:34] So the way you can shop the store, it's not, living room over here, bedroom over here, completely cordoned off. It's more of a choose your own adventure. So if I have multiple projects and I have a modern aesthetic with a little bit of a rustic twist. We have pathways to carry you through. [00:04:49] If you are mission driven and just need a new set of pots and pans, we can get you there quickly too. and so then the other thing that's a component to that, given how much we have, is the [00:05:00] support needed along the way. And so we have our associates trained to help you find the things you want, if you want a different color, we can show you that through our e commerce platform, but then you know that the size is perfect because you saw it in the store. [00:05:12] Damian: So you're connecting the in store experience to the digital experience. [00:05:16] Kara: closely. The technology enablement was so important to us. We wanted to make sure people could understand again that endless aisle, but make it a very shoppable experience in store. we also are going to be launching new services like design services to help customers complete that project with confidence. [00:05:31] and so very much want it to be an interplay. Now, [00:05:40] Ilyse: back in March, which included a full omni channel activation featuring celebrity spokespeople and an updated logo. What were the most successful lovers within this campaign, and are there any surprising insights so far? Yeah, well, we [00:05:54] Kara: Yeah, we were really excited to bring this to market. along with this campaign, we have a revised tagline [00:06:00] of every style, every home. And I think the whole goal in the campaign was to be able to show that, not just say that. And so by bringing in different personalities, some recognizable, some just relatable, we felt like we could showcase that breadth, but in ways that, a consumer looks at the ad, the campaign and says, Oh, I see myself in that. [00:06:17] I know that I can get what I'm looking for. as it comes to the winds, it's still early days, just launching in March. Not a ton of time. But we're seeing really positive response to the casting to the breadth of personalities were showing. It's quite memorable as a result. So we're seeing good spikes in attention metrics. [00:06:35] We know it's resonant, and we know that people are associating it with wayfair. So for us, that own ability was a really important goal in the campaign. [00:06:43] Ilyse: TV spots during the Oscars. Yes. What was the impact of those pretty high profile ads? [00:06:49] Kara: Oh, I think it was really nice as we went on this more of an evolution than a revolution of the brand. It was really nice to be able to showcase that in a big splashy way and have as many people [00:07:00] see it as possible. And then as you've seen and will continue to see over the course of the year, we're really building on that. [00:07:06] So we have a few different spots. They all exist in this world of the waverhood and, that sort of, The sort of universal experiences that people have in their communities are the things we're trying to show in all different ways. Now beyond those [00:07:19] Damian: Now beyond those big TV spots, are there other sort of digital channels that you're exploring? [00:07:24] Kara: lot of this campaign was not just about the what, but the where. And so we've definitely taken an expanded lens to how we show up for our customers, and really trying to make sure we understand where they're spending time. We show up there and then as a result are additive to their experience, too And you know some of the newer spaces were in definitely moving more into streaming video Moving more into audio which we hadn't done before home tends to be quite a visual category So that's been a really exciting experiment for us and then working with all sorts of creators I think that's an emerging area [00:08:00] for us but really important for thinking about home and showcasing style and self expression [00:08:06] Damian: a sort of Specific demographic. You mentioned young homeowners. That's interesting. And that perhaps predetermines which channels you might like to engage people in. [00:08:16] Kara: Absolutely. [00:08:17] we are a mass brand. We do have something for everyone. But at the same time, when you think about who's spending disproportionately on their home, who has more needs, it's definitely the folks who are going through these meaningful life events where their notion of home is changing. And so really the sort of bullseye of that are young families. [00:08:36] you're getting married, you're moving in together, you're trying to merge styles maybe successfully, maybe less successfully, you have parents who are now thinking about safety and designing a nursery all the way through durability as the kids get older. And then, moving on up through to empty nesters. [00:08:53] There's a very different set of needs. So we really want to start with that sort of nucleus of a starter family, a young family, [00:09:00] and grow the relationship from [00:09:01] Damian: That absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:11] Ilyse: an e commerce company? That's [00:09:13] Kara: that's a fantastic question. for us, we're longtime digital marketers. Digital is a very direct path to our site. And so a lot of the challenges when you're, telling a story and you're trying to guide towards that less direct path to get to site, how do you do so? And, help the customer understand what they should expect when they show up. [00:09:31] And so for me, the things that I'm thinking about all the time are storytelling. Really trying to make sure that we are contextually relevant wherever we're showing up, again, something that we're tackling with the new distribution channels. and then really making sure that a company that has been so digitally minded is making that connection. [00:09:50] And so, now under my purview is our on site team. Marketing team and thinking about when you see us in a TV ad, and then you show up on our home page. How do we make that feel like a [00:10:00] continuous journey? so it's definitely been a journey. I think it's an exciting one. Again, as somebody who's been with this brand for a long time, it's really exciting to see us lean more into that storytelling. [00:10:09] Ilyse: So you've been with Wayfair now for over 10 years. In that time frame, How would you categorize and characterize the changes in the media landscape? [00:10:20] Kara: I really think how the consumer expects to discover content has changed dramatically. Where they go, Who they go to, how they think about sharing. It's just, it's changing so rapidly and continues to do so. So for us, as we think about a category that is quite emotive, quite personal. Quite unique to an individual. [00:10:43] We want to make sure that we can show up in a way that helps somebody discover what they're looking for or discover that perfect piece. And so, you know, insofar as the media landscape, it's not just turning to a single celebrity or a single friend. You actually have access to so much. And so, we want to be a [00:11:00] breakthrough voice. [00:11:00] We want to help people parse through that and find that perfect thing, which ends up being then this ultimate combination of content and commerce.  [00:11:09] Ilyse: How does Wayfair go about measuring the impact of the users on its sites?  [00:11:16] Kara: yeah. So I mean, picking up on that thread of bridging the offline and the online, I think what's been, you know, a challenge faced by many brands is that you have to think about that total ecosystem that a customer is interacting with and how you can understand how they're moving through it, what they're seeing, what they're reacting to. [00:11:34] And so for us, we've been on a little bit of a journey to expand how we think about measurement. we've Certainly done a lot of investment in multi touch attribution, especially being more digitally native. we're expanding to think about running different kinds of experiments, understanding, lift on brand metrics over the short term and over the long term. [00:11:54] and then adding to our based model arsenal. what's great about being e commerce [00:12:00] first, though, is we do get a lot of first party data on our customers. We can see how they move around our site. We know where they've come from, largely, and we can start to stitch that story together so that we can serve them better through personalized mediums as well as an aggregate understand, where they're gravitating towards. [00:12:17] Ilyse: What are some of the major KPIs that you try to hit or some of those analytics that you really strive for? [00:12:25] Kara: Yeah, for us, we always just want to build a notion of impact. And I think what's been growing us as marketers is that's not a singular definition. And so it depends on the campaign. It depends on the goal of the test. when we're thinking about offline marketing or brand marketing, we're looking for immediate recall. [00:12:44] We're looking for a lift in certain impression metrics. or, perception metrics, rather, depending on what we're trying to convey through the campaign, all the way through to more of the mid funnel and consideration, where are we driving visits? What share of those are from new customers versus prior customers?[00:13:00]  [00:13:00] And then how are those customers engaging on site? Are they purchasing right away? Did they come in because they saw a specific category or style? All the way through to how many visits does it take before you're comfortable making a large purchase? and so we follow them, you can call it a funnel, though it tends to not be quite so linear as a funnel. [00:13:18] Um, yeah. [00:13:19] Ilyse: in some cases, the funnel has kind of died with like e commerce. Yeah, [00:13:23] Kara: it's much more of, I said the word before, an ecosystem, right? Like things are moving together non linearly and it's about telling that story, that narrative internally and then playing it back to the customer to give them what they're looking for.  [00:13:37] Damian: as we, you know, look to 2025, what are the things that are sort of exciting you in terms of innovation when it comes to marketing? [00:13:44] Yeah, [00:13:48] Kara: and back again, I think we really want to create a total experience for customers, and that'll be through storytelling. That'll be through working with different types of [00:14:00] partners, really thinking about how consumers want to do discovery, and, that's going to be a big focus for us. [00:14:06] I think like many brands, we are exploring the right use cases for AI to power a lot of what we do. There's everything from the, the stuff behind the walls of how do you get more efficient in your processes all the way through, expanding the number of creatives you're able to put out in a given test. [00:14:24] so that's very much an area of investment and innovation for us. and then, you know, as we continue to learn through the store, going back to where we started and understanding how we can just make customers lives easier, you think about expanding that to the entire delivery experience, any type of follow on customer service that's needed. [00:14:44] There's a lot of places where we think we're quite differentiated and we always want to take a technology first approach to it. [00:14:51] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:14:53] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:14:56] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current [00:15:00] team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. And remember,  [00:15:03] I'm Damian. [00:15:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:15:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Parbinder Dhariwal, VP and GM of CVS Media Exchange, discusses CVS's self-service advertising offering and the future of DEI initiatives in retail media. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:01] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:02] Ilyse: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:04] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Parbinder Dhariwal, or Parbs as he's known by friends and colleagues. He's the Vice President and General Manager at CVS Media Exchange. [00:00:14] Ilyse: Launched in 2020, the CVS Media Exchange, or CMX, helps brands and partners reach CVS Pharmacy customers and members of its Extra Care Loyalty Program through a variety of digital platforms, including social channels, programmatic display, and on cvs.com. [00:00:32] Damian: There's been a ton of advertiser interest in the retail media space. In fact, it's become one of the fastest growing digital media channels. [00:00:39] Ilyse: According to Group M, retail media networks are expected to grow revenues by 8. 3 percent in 2024. We start off by asking Parbs about this revolution. [00:00:50] Damian: So, Parbs, we keep reading about the retail media revolution from retail media networks exploding to self service and data portability. What do you think the next phase of this [00:01:00] revolution is? Well, the [00:01:01] Parbs: the retail media revolution is in full swing, isn't it? it's rockin and rollin right now. and, doesn't seem to be slowing down and letting up. [00:01:08] I think the, Group M stat and growth that they're forecasting for this year is an interesting one. we also know that it's gonna be the fastest growing channel, right the way through 2027. If you look at the market to stats, we're gonna outpace linear TV in the next couple of years. [00:01:23] So there is tremendous amount of growth. I think as we think about that revolution as we think about the way in which we operate as an organizer, as as an industry as a whole. measurement, transparency and clear campaign attribution are going to continue to be the driving force of the way in which we think about our business. [00:01:42] this has got to be central for brands. We have an opportunity as an industry to really change the game there and we're very much leaving in. the other piece is, is around how do we continue to advance in technology, how do we continue to advance in, using AI, [00:02:00] machine learning, a lot of the analytics tools that are going to be available to us and build our capabilities so we can really start to compete with some of those larger platforms, within the industry. [00:02:11] And then also, let's always not forget, retail media is nothing without the core brands that we are retail media networks, and a part of. So, in this instance, we're very much a retail media network. CMX is the retail media network for CVS, pharmacy. we operate under that guise, And what is most important to us within that capacity is for us to really understand and meet the needs of the consumer. [00:02:36] If we don't understand the consumer, we can't meet their needs. If we can't service the consumer and help understand, whether they're in a store environment and how could we create a level of discoverability in the in store environment? Or how do we create that discoverability in digital environments? [00:02:53] That's when we start to lose our gravitas. So thinking about the consumer first and then how do we add [00:03:00] to their experience as they're shopping through our stores, both, as I said, from a physical as well as digital and looking at it through the omni channel lens. [00:03:09] Damian: and just off the back of that, you do have tremendous scale. What kind of customer reach are you looking at? [00:03:15] Parbs: Yeah, it's a, great question. And you got to remember CVS, pharmacy is a national brand in the United States. And I'll give you some, this probably the moment for me to, throw a few stats at you, right? Like, let's do this. so first and foremost, CVS stores, there's 9, 000 locations in the U S. [00:03:32] we are, part of CVS health, which is, The largest health and wellness, business in the U. S.  [00:03:39] Parbs: As you think about our stores in particular, we have close to 5 million interactions with our stores every single day from consumers. So, vast amount of traffic that comes through our stores and for various need states as well. [00:03:52] from a digital perspective, we have almost 140 million, Users who are coming to the CVS. com site and again interacting with us [00:04:00] with various different need states. but shopping is a core component of that. And then the most important stats certainly from a CMX standpoint is we are predicated and built upon our loyalty program. [00:04:11] And it kind of differentiates us a little bit from other retail media networks. Our loyalty program is 74 million extra care consumers. substantial. at scale, but also gives us that really strong purview of that omnichannel experience. So hopefully that sort of just helps you give an understanding of the scale that we operate within. [00:04:33] Really? [00:04:33] Damian: yeah, I mean, it's massive and we want to talk a little bit more about the Extra Care Loyalty Program. [00:04:38] Parbs: Program. If there's anybody out [00:04:39] Damian: further on. but you know, I'm not sure if this question if there's anybody out there right now who doesn't actually, subscribe to retail media. the power of retail media. But what would you say to such a person, an advertiser who believes retail media doesn't fit into their media investment? [00:04:55] Parbs: Yeah, I say that to them that, you know, retail data, [00:05:00] the way in which we see the transactions within our stores, that level of wealth of proprietary data is an understanding of. Of behaviors and the way in which consumers are shopping between digital, physical environments when they're coming into store, the frequency by which they're purchasing product. [00:05:17] That is a highly effective tool. And as a brand, if you're not leveraging that, you're missing out on an enormous channel. This is the reason why. Brands are leaning in heavily. They're becoming much more sophisticated in how they use retail media. I think they're also really pushing retail media as well to become more sophisticated in the offerings, more sophisticated in the way that we measure more sophisticated in the way in which we provide that level of transparency across our businesses. [00:05:46] Closing the loop and building that attribution model is also really, really important. That sets us apart from any other platform. like that. There are some of the larger platforms that have continually [00:06:00] struggled to provide that level of closed loop attribution as I think about I saw an ad or I've engaged with an ad. [00:06:08] And what has that driven me to do? And what is the outcomes as a result of that? That again is something that retail media is very much in an exclusive camp. And we've got to make sure that brands truly understand how to use them. [00:06:21] Damian: that [00:06:22] Parbs: And the other thing that we should, make sure that we, that we understand is that there's retail media networks that have enormous amount of first party data. [00:06:33] And as a result of that first party data, [00:06:35] Damian: not [00:06:36] Parbs: it gives us the ability to leverage that consumer across the omni channel. But not just on our own owned and operated properties, but how do you leverage that data or that asset across the open web. Right when you're trading with, through be it through DSP environments or otherwise. [00:06:53] How do you leverage that CVS data, the extra care loyalty program to continually [00:07:00] enrich your programs, your marketing efforts to drive more performance to drive more product to drive more engagement with the consumer. So we're sitting on a we're sitting on a massive opportunity. And it's in our hands, right? [00:07:14] It's in our hands as the retailers to, To step up. It's in our hands to make sure that we continue to provide all of the things that brands are looking for and provide that level of transparency on how we're measuring our performance and more importantly, bringing brands in the industry along on this. [00:08:38] We're, it's got to be additive to their journey, not disruptive. we want to, we don't want to put things in the way of the consumer getting to the products that they need. But we, what we do is we want to enable a level of discoverability through the retail media networks that gives them access to products that they didn't realize that they could buy at CVS. [00:08:55] They didn't realize that they were, in the beauty counter. I think it's, I think those are really [00:09:00] important. [00:09:00] Ilyse: really important. Yeah. On that note, last year, CVS is extra care. It was named one of Newsweek's best loyalty programs. How has CVS cultivated such a strong relationship with its customers? [00:09:12] Parbs: Yeah, and look, extra care has been around for over two decades. The longitudinal latitudinal nature of the program gives us a really strong insight into the way that the consumers have been having and purchasing products with us. again, I'm sounding like a little bit of a broken record here. [00:09:30] It's not my intention, but the consumer is at the center of everything that we do. Understanding the way that the consumer purchases, it enables us to deliver message, personalized message to those consumers in the environments within which they operate. We can understand certain need states and how that consumer is wanting to go, and work with us in the, in our environment. [00:09:50] we will continue to build, that loyalty program for, with extra care. It's the foundation of CMX, we've talked about it at the top of this podcast. There's [00:10:00] 74 million of those consumers, they're swiping at really high levels. they're engaging with our, with our program as well. [00:10:06] And, yeah. that's where the opportunity comes on. I was providing a level of service back to them with the ads business as well. [00:10:12] Damian: self service. The [00:10:13] Ilyse: On that note, no, separate notes. but along the line of service, CVS Media Exchange introduced the self service option for advertisers that was announced this past CanLion. why is launching a self service important for increased transparency? I know that's a popular buzzword around, the industry, but it's also extremely important. [00:10:36] Yeah, [00:10:37] Damian: transparency [00:10:38] Parbs: Transparency is, it is a buzzword, but it's a it's an old. It's also an incredibly important foundational pillar for us as a business. and the way in which we operate. So I think that's the, I would say that. the, related to the self serve announcement, that we announced at CAN, it's actually more about, whilst the transparency is there, it's also about accessibility.[00:11:00]  [00:11:00] How do we provide a level of accessibility to our inventory, in, ways in which they can access that inventory through a DSP platform through a particular seat. So sell serve opens up how brands want to work with retail media. And we've only really been in market as a retail media network since 2020. [00:11:21] We're developing this business. We're bringing it to market. I think we're doing it at speed. I think we're doing it very thoughtfully on The partners that we work with, in this instance, we're working with a trade desk on this self service program. trade desk shared our values. [00:11:35] They share the way in which we want to innovate. They share the way in which we are looking at the consumer and driving that technology in order to continue to develop solutions for our advertisers. What I don't want us to forget is You know, as we think about that accessibility, as we think about transparency, how do we continue to iterate from here? [00:11:57] How do we continue to develop innovation with [00:12:00] other tech partners, with the trade desk to, to further enhance how we're, bringing new solutions to our advertisers? [00:12:07] Ilyse: Can you actually explain it a little bit more? Where, in using your self serve option, where can advertisers expect their ads to appear, or how are they accessing your data to, to drive [00:12:23] Parbs: Yep. So we're going into a closed beta, with the trade desk. That will allow a certain number of select advertisers to come and work with us and develop programs, within our closed self serve beta environment. we're building audiences within those environments. The way in which it will operate is that the brand will use their Trade Desk C in order to activate campaigns through the Trade Desk DSP into the open web. [00:12:52] So they have the ability to buy OpenWeb or CTV and all of the different products that are available through the Trade Desk [00:13:00] but accessibility to 74 million extra care consumers. It's the first time that we've made that available in a self serve capacity, with the Trade Desk. Now. , that's not always how brands wanna operate. [00:13:11] Some brands want to go into the self-serve world and others want to just cont continue down the managed service route. So we will continue to offer managed serve as an option. so that product will remain and we have a strong team to support that. But we also want to create, again, accessibility options for the way in which brands wanna engage with us. Very interesting. [00:13:34] Damian: Now, you wrote an op ed for The Current, this year, and in that op ed you said something, if I may quote you, creating a tailored customer experience across channels and pulling together data from various touchpoints, that being website visits, mobile apps, in store interactions, loyalty programs, and more. [00:13:53] It can be a challenge, and I know we often like to talk about, opportunities and hand in hand with challenges. I wonder if you [00:14:00] could talk a little bit about the challenge you're referencing there. [00:14:04] Parbs: Yeah, the challenge stems from, again, retail media is predicated on really closing the loop, so how do we attribute an action, right the way through to purchase. And if you think about, hyper personalization, for the consumer, to drive more engagement. That consumer is, it's, they're difficult to reach, but they're more importantly, they're difficult to make sure that we continually serve the right level of message to them in the right environments. Previously, retailers have struggled with, bringing that, the assets, the data components, and then how do you target personalized message to them within the channels that we want to talk to them as well. That's where, our first party data and the use of our first party data and as we're building our audiences really actually comes [00:14:59] Ilyse: [00:15:00] the [00:15:00] Parbs: its own. [00:15:01] That challenge of, Understanding the consumer and how you can actually leverage that consumer in different channels That's really the driver to building a performance business for our brands [00:15:15] Damian: a lot [00:15:16] Parbs: We're seeing a lot of work around, whether it's through customer data platforms or other technology, to bring our consumers to life. [00:15:23] We use data clean rooms to make sure that, we always drive the security of our, uh, consumer, that we're not passing any data, any information through to, consumers. [00:15:33] Ilyse: tech [00:15:34] Damian: to maintain [00:15:35] Parbs: or through to any other platforms. We're maintaining that level of privacy. These are all obviously challenges. but it's important to mention that, as we think about propriety data, we think about precision targeting, we think about that real time optimization and that also the attribution [00:15:51] Damian: attribution of [00:15:52] Parbs: of an end to end reporting. [00:15:54] That's where brands are really embracing retail media networks. That's where we've got to lean in as an [00:16:00] industry, and we've got to get better, we've got to get more transparent about how we're providing those solutions. because that, again, will grow the industry. And, look, we've seen the IAB come to the market with some clear guidelines on how we should be measuring, and what are the standardization of metrics. [00:16:17] There's got to be more of that. Then there's got to be more of that lean in from retail media networks, because we've all got to move together to build a better industry, to build a better way in which brands can use our platforms, and give them options in the way in which they're talking to consumers. [00:16:33] And, that's the exciting piece. It's phenomenal for retail media, right? Like It's a real moment. [00:16:39] Damian: Yeah, you're writing them on the front lines of it. one aspect of retail data is that, advertisers can connect their digital environment with the physical shopping environment. And as you mentioned, CVS Pharmacy has all of these environments, physical environments across the United States. [00:16:59] Why does it [00:17:00] matter that you connect those up? [00:17:01] Parbs: connect those up? because the connection of the digital and physical environments, it's crucial because consumer shops, How they want to shop, depending on that current need stay or this particular situation that they're in at any given time, right? [00:17:17] there's, if we think about that level of integration of data around online and offline buying behaviours, like advertisers are consistently trying to understand, first of all, how do you create a seamless experience between those two environments? But then more importantly how do you influence the consumer through that journey? [00:17:37] Like we, we talk, for a number of years within this industry we've talked about our traditional funnel approach and there's no funnel anymore. retail media has actually condensed the funnel and you're, Point of delivery of message to through to point of purchase has shortened so much. [00:17:55] it's it's almost an in. It's there's no awareness. There's no consider. It's just go [00:18:00] straight down to the bottom of the funnel and purchase from the moment that you see an ad. And so we've got to think about, how do we continue to add value in that process right the way through the digital and physical, experiences. [00:18:14] There are some challenges there as well, right? Like it's, when we think about showing a, an ad to a consumer in a digital environment and then whether they purchase that product in digital or they, It's, buy online, pick up in store and send it to a store or they, go into a store and purchase, we see 52 percent of our, web and app users who start their journey in the digital capacity and then finish it in a physical capacity as well within 48 hours, right? [00:18:43] Like that's the kind of thing. Yeah, and we've got to make sure that again, like working with the brands to to really surface those kind of insights so they can then be along that journey with that consumer as well through the experience. [00:19:00] Some of the in store activations when we got around about, we've got screens within our in store environments, at the pharmacy counter, we have digital audio, we have out shelf promotions and so on. [00:19:11] Some of those are a little bit more difficult to measure. I think one of the challenges that we will face as an industry is how do we bring a level of measurability to those components and, I, there's a lot of, different outfits that are driving that. but with that, I think personalization needs to be consistent. [00:19:27] Showing the value of connectivity between the digital and physical environments being with that consumer across that entire journey and every single touch point will also set you apart from the rest of the industry. ongoing. this is an evolution, right? As, as we continue to [00:19:44] Ilyse:  [00:19:44] Damian: That's [00:19:49] Ilyse: that in the retail media space as it stands today? And how do you think it can evolve since it's so new? [00:19:58] Parbs: Yeah, I am passionate [00:20:00] about it, and I'm passionate about it because I've been in this industry for 25 years, and I have I think we can do better, as it relates to D and I, and As we give opportunity across all different layers of an organization, these are really important for the growth of our industry. [00:20:26] And I'm not just talking about retail, I'm talking about the advertising industry, for us to build opportunity for more diverse voices within our business, for different ways of thinking, for the way in which we want to be change agents within the whole industry. And We've got to continue to do better. [00:20:48] Where retail media comes into play is that as we build this industry from the bottom up, it gives us an opportunity to think about D& I a little bit differently. we're building teams that are new teams. we might [00:21:00] already have a blueprint from different organizations that we work with on what's worked or what's not worked. [00:21:06] And as we've looked at CMX, we've built purposefully A level of diversity into our organization that gives us an understanding of not just the way in which we want to think as an organization, but it also gives us a relationship with how our consumers are. we have consumers shopping us from across the United States. [00:21:28] They're consumers from various walks of life. And if we understand the consumer and we can share it. an understanding of who they are and live in their shoes because we have, then that gives us an ability to think a little differently about our businesses. And then how does that relate to retail media? [00:21:47] I think we can do better. I would like us to do better. I do challenge the industry around there. but overall, I think, retail media can really pave the way for how we think about D and I initiatives and bringing more [00:22:00] diverse voices Into our industry, and we're definitely doing that in CMX. [00:22:03] We can stand behind that. [00:22:04] Parbs: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:22:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:22:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:22:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:22:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:22:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Mark Penn, the chairman and CEO of Stagwell Inc., reflects on his extraordinary career, driven by his passion for politics and marketing, and offers insights on why this is a good year for marketers.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Penn, the Chairman and CEO of Stagwell. [00:00:10] Damian: Well, first, as a political pollster, who's advised names like Bill and Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair. [00:00:20] Later, he became Chief Strategist for Microsoft, before founding Stagwell, a digital first marketing and communications group. [00:00:28] Ilyse: Mark's political background no doubt brings a much needed perspective to marketing. He argues that in today's real time, data driven world, brands must have a constant finger on the pulse of the American consumer. [00:00:42] Damian: We start by asking him how these two worlds, politics and marketing, have always been bound together [00:00:48] mark, it's no secret that you've covered the waterfront from being a political strategist to a poster to businessman and author. You know, can you walk us through a little bit about how you went from polling to politics to media? [00:01:00] That's a big question, right? [00:01:01] Yes, I'm still trying to answer that question  [00:01:03] Mark: myself. How did I get here? Uh, you know, I kind of re strategize myself like every decade or so. And I said, well, okay, what is it that I really want to do? And, and so I, I kind of started actually out as I was going to be a lawyer. Uh, and then I detoured from law, law to polling. [00:01:22] And then I was going to be a pollster working for the president. And I got to do that. So then I kind of detoured from there. And then at a certain point, and I love technology. So I was then kind of went to Microsoft and became chief strategy officer. And then I, I had this idea to say, why can't I take all my experiences in polling and campaigns and running bursts in Marsteller. [00:01:45] And I ran Microsoft's advertising too. And I said, you know what? I could form a better holding company because it could be more digital first. It could be more freed from the legacy assets. It could be more innovative. And so I did exactly that. [00:02:00]  [00:02:00] Damian: Yeah, doing a little research on your background, it seems like your curiosity seems to have served you very well throughout life. [00:02:06] Is that part of the DNA of, of what drives you or what, what keeps, what motivates you to keep going?  [00:02:12] Mark: Well, you have to do what you're interested in. You know, I always think, it's so funny. You know, my partner and I were going to be corporate lawyers. And, and then we decided, you know what? We like this polling thing. [00:02:22] We have impact on campaigns and society. And we thought, oh, we're giving up this cushy life as corporate lawyers. And we, we did a lot better doing polling than we ever would have done as corporate lawyers. So, what I always tell people is, follow your passion. Don't worry so much. If you do something, do it. [00:02:38] Really interesting. Really? Well, you'll, you'll figure out how to, you know, how to manage the, the reward side of things, and that's much better than doing something you don't really like that you somehow think is going to be rewarding.  [00:02:51] Damian: Now, Stagwell, as you mentioned, offices, big marketing network, let's tech driven, you know, as a leader in digital, you know, uh, how have you seen the [00:03:00] two areas move together, you know, the idea of digital marketing performance and creative, how do those two things. [00:03:07] Mark: Well, I think they have to work together. I think that to the extent that you're creating a digital experience, that is a creative activity. That, that everyone remember, those of us who were not born digital, think of how we create a TV spot first. Those who were born digital don't think in that way. They think in how they're going to create a digital experience first. [00:03:35] Right? And, and that takes the same kind of creativity, if not more so. Right? Because TV spots eventually had like a, they had like a, they had rules. Right? And they had a boundary and they were 30 seconds. And, you know, and you can be like, it's actually more of an interesting open canvas when it comes to digital creation. [00:03:54] Ilyse: What would you say is one thing every brand or media buyer should be [00:04:00] thinking about today?  [00:04:01] Mark: Uh, every media buyer, I think, today is just thinking about how they get the, Find the right place for their brand. [00:04:10] I mean, I, I think, I think it's, it's kind of the basic of who's your real target audience and, and how, how are you going to find that audience? And I think they just have to be open minded that it's, that there are so many new ways to reach an audience that they have to spread their wings a little bit. [00:04:28] Right. I mean, I think we went from, it was just TV. to it was just TV and Google and Facebook. So now it's Google Tiktok and retail marketing and so many other things. And I think they just have to be open to experimenting to find where their target audience really is.  [00:04:43] Ilyse: Now it's no secret that the publishing industry is under a lot of pressure today. [00:04:48] And Stagwell recently published a study called the news advertising study with the Findings that showcase that it's safe for brands to advertise next to news, regardless [00:05:00] of the topic, and that adds next to those even like controversial topics performed just as effectively as those within more like positive news environments, maybe like sports or entertainment. [00:05:12] Now in your op ed for the current, you wrote that brands think there is less downside in those positive environments, but the opposite is true too. There is less upside. Can you tell us what you mean and why should advertisers care about these findings?  [00:05:27] Mark: Well, I think that I discovered, and I discovered this when I did the budgeting at Microsoft. [00:05:32] A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. Uh, that they will be advertising in sports and they will be advertising in entertainment. And they will be blocking out news, or they will be subscribing to a service that in effect blocks them out. And what maybe started out as some good idea, you know, that your, the ad for your, for Boeing shouldn't appear next to a plane crash, really [00:06:00] somehow devolved into something affecting 25 percent of news articles. [00:06:04] Seriously demonetizing journalism. And it's having unintended consequences far beyond that. And brand safety? Seriously? I mean, I've yet to see some brand lying in the curb because their advertisement appeared in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. It's a ludicrous notion to be blacking out legitimate journalistic publications for, quote, brand safety. [00:06:30] Damian: In general, the business model for news journalism is sort of evolving and changing. You know, what else is new? What do you think can advertisers and publishers do to work together to make sure that journalism is thriving even as newsrooms shutter?  [00:06:42] Mark: Well, I think that there has to be a little bit of re education here with the CMOs and the media buyers. [00:06:50] I think they're afraid that somehow they're going to trigger some backlash against their company. Yeah, certain, certain things have [00:07:00] triggered a backlash. But to go back to, I've never known that backlash to come from advertising in one of the major publications. And, and so consequently, I think that they can reduce some of their fear levels. [00:07:12] And then also they have to understand that news consumers, right, in about 25 percent of the country, maybe 23 percent of the country, are what I classify as news junkies, right, who, who go in and, and, And kind of get updated on the news five times a day. That is a great engaged audience. They read stuff. [00:07:32] Okay. That means they're more likely actually to kind of absorb your advertisement than someone who doesn't read stuff. Uh, and, and so I think they really have to rethink how some of their media planning and the audiences they're targeting and, and get out there and experiment with news. Cause I, again, I, I think, I think for the social problem here is that it's demonetizing news and putting journalists out, out of work. [00:07:57] But just be greedy. Just, just go, you know, just [00:08:00] think about your brand. I think it will benefit.  [00:08:02] Damian: They shouldn't be on the back foot so much. Speaking of news, of course, this year is a presidential election year in the U. S. and elections all around the world. Um, what do you think are the top channels in today's media landscape for this year's U. [00:08:13] S. presidential election?  [00:08:15] Mark: Well, I, I, I think that's, that's kind of interesting. Look, most campaigns spend most money on TV, right? So, but as I tell commercial advertisers, you know, if you have your customers in Ohio, well, Ohio is a less of a swing state than it was, but let's say Arizona or Nevada, Virginia. [00:08:34] Good luck. Good luck buying media, you know, in the last few months here, because it is going to be jammed because there's more money than ever in politics, right? And so then, then politics is, is, is then going to go over to, to social media. Right? And I think spend a lot of money on on social media, uh, all being right. [00:08:55] And you know, and you're going to find just from an age cohort, you're going to find people on X or [00:09:00] older and people on Tiktok or younger. And kind of, you have to kind of understand your audience and the medium. So it's interesting. You know, I came from a lot of old school TV advertising. Uh, I've yet to see how people as effectively drive a message. [00:09:16] Right on social media. I think they've got to do more work. As I always say, the best digital ads in either politics or commercial have yet to be invented,  [00:09:27] Ilyse: you know, to that. effort, um, especially when connecting with, like, Gen Zers, do you think technology will play more of a role? Is that, do we see candidates still, um, sticking true to, like, social media or are there other channels you think they're playing even more in this year? [00:09:44] Well, it's [00:09:44] Mark: interesting that, you know, what does Trump really do? Trump does events, so his event strategy is then geared to create content that then gets distributed primarily through social media, right? And, and so it's [00:10:00] very interesting because, because it's almost, you know, we look here, you know, I'm, we're, well, we're, we're at something called Sport Beach, and so, so events are back. [00:10:09] And events aren't a substitute for the media. They are, they generate the content that you really need. That's because people, people want content that's fresh, right? And they want to feel that they're in the moment. They don't want something that's old and that's canned. Uh, and so I think that's, that's really, really important. [00:10:28] But we are seeing, look, we know that about 70 percent of budgets now have really gone online. And that is, that is, you know, back, when I was at Microsoft a decade ago, it was probably 2%. So that has gone beyond anybody's expectations. Of course, that was one of the reasons that I founded Stagwell because we saw that and we wanted to be ahead of that curve. [00:10:51] And of course, that's one of the things that we, you know, work together closely with the trade desk on.  [00:10:56] Ilyse: Totally. Um, now personal politics aside, [00:11:00] what advice would you share with Biden's team and Trump's team? Where's the gap in each of their campaigns as, as it stands?  [00:11:07] Mark: Well, but I would really tell both of them the same thing. [00:11:10] Uh, you know, I try to explain to people the math of swing voting, that if an election is 5 5 and it switches, one person switches, it becomes 6 4. Now, it takes two people in turnout to equal one person who switches. So, getting switchers is really the most powerful thing in politics. And getting switchers means appealing to people who don't agree with you, right? [00:11:36] And so what I would say is get out of the politics of the base. Get into the politics of switchers. Reach out to the people who don't agree with you. Try to find compromises, uh, in policy that brings them in. And whoever does that most successfully will not only win, but we'll win in a landslide. And if alternatively they appeal only to their base, they may win. [00:11:57] They may lose, but they will not have changed the 50, [00:12:00] 50 nature of the, of the country.  [00:12:04] Damian: Now, You know, you're known as a sage advisor. What's the best advice you've ever received? Yeah,  [00:12:11] Mark: well the best advice I ever received was at an elevator In which in which In which a guy told me he was a he was he was a stock analyst And he said, buy Amazon. [00:12:33] He said, sell every other stock you have and buy Amazon because they will be the future of retailing. And this was like when Amazon was a peanut, I of course thought the guy was a nutcase. [00:12:48] And so I did not follow that advice. Uh, I would say that, that though, seriously, the, um, You know, I've worked for a lot of incredible people and, and, and [00:13:00] I always try to pick up kind of, kind of what they do best, right. And, and, you know, I worked with president Clinton and president Clinton was just amazing at, at synthesis. [00:13:10] You would, you would throw incredibly complex things at, at him and he would fit them all into, into pieces or, you know, or I worked, you know, with Steve Ballmer, who's a core investor. And I just thought he was like, I didn't understand how he had 110, 000 people and went home. Uh, and how his time management was so radically different than, than mine. [00:13:31] So I always try to pick up things from whomever, whomever I worked with. Uh, and to see like, what's the special thing, some of the special things that, that really work well. Fascinating. Now Stagwell is no stranger to growth or acquisitions. And  [00:13:47] Damian: what does the future hold for Stagwell?  [00:13:50] Mark: Well, you know, I always explain, we started Stagwell eight years ago, you know, at zero. [00:13:55] We're about two and a half billion in revenue now. We [00:14:00] continue to expand out, you know, globally and also globally. You know, building a series of tech, uh, of tech products. Uh, I feel that we're a teenager now, you know, we were a baby two or three years ago and, and, and we've got, we're, we're really now coming on as a challenger network, uh, and we're going to continue to challenge, but we think we have a lot of growth, a lot of growth ahead of us. [00:14:23] Ilyse: Now there's a lot of things affecting the industry. A lot of major topics that are being discussed nonstop. What is your prediction for the end of 2020? 2024 and into 2025.  [00:14:36] Mark: Look, I think this is going to be a good year for marketing. It's going to be 12 billion spent on politics. So that's always helpful, uh, to, to, you know, and, uh, and, you know, I think we have a, we have a good, you know, uh, We have several companies that are in the political space. [00:14:52] Uh, I think that, that advertising is growing, uh, generally. I think 20, I think tech companies [00:15:00] have a lot of work to do in terms of the competition now that's, uh, that's occurring on who's going to really dominate in AI, if anybody, or how are people going to have different flavors of AI. So I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going on. [00:15:14] I think 23 was a year I couldn't wait for it to finish. You know, it was not the year that we were hoping for. But 24, you know, sitting here in mid year, it's looking good. [00:15:23] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:15:26] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:15:29] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:15:35] Damian: Cairns. And remember,  [00:15:36] Mark: A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. [00:15:43] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:15:43] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:15:44] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

Polaris' Chief Customer Growth Officer talks with The Current Podcast about how many of the company's customers are multicultural and have preferred style over performance. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:59] Damian: I'm [00:01:00] Damian ​Fowler.[00:01:05] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And[00:01:07] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:01:09] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Pam Kermisch, the Chief Customer Growth Officer at Polaris. [00:01:15] Damian: Polaris was founded 70 years ago with the invention of the early snowmobile in 1954. Polaris takes its name after the North Star, and it's meant to reflect the location of the company's first headquarters in northern Minnesota. [00:01:34] Ilyse: These days, Polaris is the global industry leader in power sports. Offering everything from Indian motorcycles to its off road racers. And all the accessories that go with them.[00:01:44] Damian: During the pandemic, the brands saw a surge of interest in its vehicles as people embraced outdoor activity. Although it started out as a specialized brand, it continues to build on its popularity through its marketing campaign. Think outside. [00:02:03] Pam: Back in 1954, two brothers and a best friend decided they way, faster to get to their location. And they literally strapped a motor to the back of a sled and created the first snowmobile. It was ingenuity at its best. [00:02:20] And when I think about Polaris today, We have recreational vehicles. We have motorcycles. We have off road vehicles. We have boats. We also have utility vehicles that help people do work smarter. And at the end of the day, it's really about getting people outside and helping to have a better way to do things, whether it's working smarter or on the recreational side, having the most epic experiences with your friends and family.[00:02:47] Ilyse: Very nice. Now in 2019, the brand actually underwent a new rebranding with a new Think Outside campaign. [00:02:56] Ilyse: I read that there is a goal to basically grow the base [00:03:00] by 50 percent by tapping into your existing base and finding new customers as well. What was your strategy around that and how has it played out to this point?[00:03:11] Pam: Yes. So in 2019, We really took a look at talking to our existing customers, talking to potential intenders of our brands and talking to people we thought might be interested in what we offer. And we did some great consumer research. And what we learned is at the heart of it, we tapped into what they really care about.[00:03:35] And what we found is what our current existing owners care about. More people could care about. We just had to find the right people. We had to reach out to them. We had to show them how this could fit into their lives and introduce them to our brand. And it's really been a  huge effort the past few years. To find the right people and show them how this could fit in with what they  already do and make it better. And on top of bringing in more new customers, it's also bringing in new people that look a little different than our core customers.[00:04:11] Damian: Very interesting, because when you think what sell in a way, kind of very specialized, I don't know whether I'd it niche. [00:04:22] Pam: you know, I think when you look at household penetration off road vehicles, for example, household - So you're right. It's not something where it's 70, 80, 90 percent of the market has one of these. But what I will say is if you think about some of the audiences. We do attract people love outdoor recreation. love being outside. They love adventure. They might do camping, they might do hiking, they might do fishing. We also think about the people who do property maintenance They're farmers, they're ranchers, They're hunters. So, when you think about those populations, they are much more likely to buy our products. But if you look at the penetration even within those, We don't have 80 90 percent of hunters, so there's still so much penetration opportunity within people who do the activities where it seems like they would really benefit from something that we could offer them. [00:05:26] Damian: Was there a moment when you realized there was the potential to expand the audience? That's so interesting to me and I wonder how you found that opportunity.[00:05:40] Pam:  So I'm kind of a nerd, self admittedly kind of a nerd. And I really think that CRM and data and analytics played a huge role in this journey because prior to [00:06:00] having that type of capability, we actually didn't know how many customers we had. We had customers for decades, but we actually didn't know how many customers. We knew how many units we had sold, but units does not equal customers because you have people who have owned more than one over time. So going back a handful of years, we were able to Get CRM, take our data in, cleanse the data, de dupe our, people and, understand how many customers we had and set some goals and start measuring how many new customers came in each year.[00:06:35] And when I say new customers, some were brand new to the category. Some had owned competitive vehicles before, but never bought from Polaris.[00:06:45] Pam: some may have owned a used Polaris vehicle, but had never bought new from us. So It's not a flash in the pan sort of thing. This is a strategy that we really need to go after. And so it became very intentional to, of course, as the global leader, it's in our best interest to get existing customers and come back to buy again because we have the largest number of existing customers. But we also need to focus on bringing in new people and we've proven we can do it. So let's do it. [00:07:17] Ilyse: And that first party data is huge to any brand. How is Polaris is actually getting your first-party data from customers? Can you explain that shopper journey a little bit? And may how that journey may be different from a traditional auto dealer.[00:07:31] Pam: And Absolutely. So if you buy a car. It has to be warranty registered. So that manufacturer will know that you bought a car from them. So if anything should go wrong with warranty, that they are able to contact you. Very similar, when someone buys one of our vehicles and it gets warranty registered, we receive the customer information.[00:07:54] And we certainly can use third party data to append that, but we know who owns that vehicle. [00:08:00] We also do have people who visit our website. In our dealerships, the majority of them, we call them multi line dealerships. So, they do sell Polaris, but they also may sell Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Can Am. And so, you think of it very to being grocery store being in a cereal aisle, where you have all the competitors right there in the same you may think you're going to the cereal aisle to buy Frosted Flakes and Flip and buy multigrain cheerios. [00:08:32] Pam: A customer can come to our dealership thinking they're going to buy a Polaris Ranger and that salesperson can flip to a Can Am Defender. And so when you think about it, it is in our best interest with marketing to try to get that customer as committed to which brand and which product they want as early in the journey as possible to make sure that they can't get flipped at the last minute at the dealership. [00:08:59] Ilyse: You know, when it comes to digital marketing, because it's such a niche product, are there specific digital channels you've found to have more potential to reach the type of consumers you're trying to reach? [00:09:20] Pam: You know, I would say it's less about it being one particular channel because at the end of the day, our, our customers are, they're all over the place [00:09:31] in terms of their habits, their consumption habits, and whatnot. They're [00:09:34] regular people. But what's more important to us is understanding the people who buy our products. So we do have our owners. We know who our owners are. [00:09:44] And we can do third party data appending, we can do look alike modeling to understand. We can't afford to go after maybe everyone who loves the outdoors. That wouldn't make financial sense. We may not be able to afford to go after everyone who owns one or two or [00:10:00] five acres of property or more around the country or the world. But what we can do is do look alike modeling and use that data with our media partners to try to get more narrowed in on: Who are the right hunters that we should be going after? Who are the right type of landowners? And part of it is not only being able to find the right people but understanding which populations which segments came to our ones ended up buying, and using that info to continually optimize. But also, lot of really, smart things these days where using our current inventory and using that our media to be able to reach out to the right show them this sportsman that you looked at recently is available right now at this dealer down the block and trying to [00:11:00] drive urgency there or using other types of data that we might have.[00:11:04] whether they think they're shopping or not at that moment in time. [00:11:08] Damian: I wonder how you're connecting this because adventure tourism is a big deal right. And that's a growig market. Is that something you're growing into? [00:11:18] Pam: I, I Yes. So, several years ago we started something called Polaris Adventures. So certainly places rented off road vehicles in the past, but oftentimes they were the old ones kind of broken down and it was really important to us from a brand perspective. We're talking about if you're gonna do something from a brand perspective, build your brand. We wanted to make sure people were in the current vehicles, the most modern ones and the ones that we knew were going to give them the best experience. So we created something called Polaris Adventures. And you can go online and you can find Polaris Adventures and you can go to one of 270 locations. [00:12:00] 268 of them are in the United States.[00:12:01] One is in Mexico. One's in New Zealand. And you can rent a Polaris Side by Side Razor. You can rent a Polaris Slingshot, which is a three wheel roadster. Think of a Batmobile. It looks like a Batmobile. it rides on road. You can rent an Indian motorcycle if you ride motorcycles. And so you can do that in all of these different markets. And I'll tell you, even though I work at the company, I have used Polaris Adventures. I've ridden in the dunes in Oregon. I've ridden in the desert in Arizona and Mexico. I've ridden in the mud trails of West Virginia, and all, all kinds of other markets. In each one of those is a different experience because the terrain is very different. [00:12:42] Rock crawling in is completely different being in the and is completely different than being different than dunes in a [00:12:59] Pam: It's an [00:13:00] amazing way to people experience it. And you know what? Not all go buy one some will never buy one. Some may buy maybe at a time in life when it fits them better. And others may just put it in their Instagram feed. And guess what? I promise this. If you were to do this activity and you were to put it, in your Instagram feed, it is the best FOMO ever. All of your friends are, you know, texting. Where are you? What are you doing? and they want a piece of that. So I think it's highly relevant in today's world. And I think we're just playing a part of this growing travel market. [00:13:36] Ilyse: So, much fun. have fOMO right now. just even talking about and you know, it's [00:13:48] Ilyse: You described your family not as the stereotypical sports kind of family, and I would imagine there's a bunch of Polaris customers that wouldn't qualify as the stereotypical power sports types of people. Are there any types of segments that you wouldn't expect that are interested in power sports vehicles?[00:14:00][00:14:08] Pam: So it's interesting if you think about maybe what you would expect to think about from traditional power sports customers. You know, you might think older white male and historically, maybe that's how the category had been, particularly with ATVs and whatnot. Like I said, half of our customers now are younger women multicultural. So let's blow that up right now. But what I will say is going back a number of years ago, We created a product called the slingshot Polaris slingshot.[00:14:40] And like I said, it's a three wheeled vehicle. It rides on road. it's 5. 5 inches from the ground, open air cockpit. and it's very auto like, right? So now you can actually, get one that is automatic or manual. And, When we started with this vehicle, we assumed it was gonna be about performance because that's what a lot of power sports customers like.[00:14:59] [00:15:00] And if you look at it, it kind of looks aggressive, so it looks like it's gonna go super fast. We marketed it. We even did demos on racetracks because it was all about performance. And it was doing okay, not phenomenal. And we actually looked at the data, and the data showed we had a much higher percentage of multicultural customers who own this vehicle, and that was really not typical of the industry.[00:15:25] So we did consumer insights research to understand what brought them to Slingshot, why did they love it, and what we found was they weren't coming in because of performance. It was the style that really appealed to them and they loved that when they drove around in this slingshot heads turned.[00:15:42] And when we said there's something to this, let's start marketing that way. First of all, I think the brand is 40 plus percent multicultural customers today. But on top of that, the white customers that are buying this love style, [00:16:00] The personalization. They love the same what's interesting is when you go slingshot meetups, a lot local groups, clubs that have organized and they all get together. [00:16:10] When you at [00:16:13] Damian: has [00:16:14] Pam: diverse group of people you've ever seen. You multicultural, old, young, it might not be a group of people you ever would have imagined congregating, but they are loving each other and checking out each other's slingshots and talking about getting together and how much they love it.[00:16:32] And it's this common community that has brought these people together. And so I think we've learned some great lessons about. Sometimes you think you know, and one of the number one rules of marketing is, you know, you don't know, don't make assumptions. You need to actually listen to customers, learn from them and be willing to adapt. And that's been an awesome learning and really opened our eyes to opportunity within power sports. [00:16:57] Ilyse: that's a [00:16:57] good [00:16:58] Pam: the [00:17:00] things and to these there's of that look [00:17:11] Damian: vehicles. And then that goes out on social [00:17:13] Pam: is [00:17:13] Damian: that a whole [00:17:16] Pam: know, white Absolutely. You know what? You know what? Here's what I will tell you. Going back, I joined Polaris in 2015 and we had done some research on the Indian motorcycle brand and the path to purchase and[00:17:32] back then, the number one way that people came in on the brand was word of mouth. And that's been probably for centuries and for decades, it's word of mouth. [00:17:43] Pam: And in motorcycles, it might been, know, yes, your friends and family, but go to a truck stop and someone else there and you're checking out their bike you're asking they ask you how you like it. The beautiful thing today that definitely still happens a lot. But with digital[00:18:00][00:18:00] Ilyse: kind [00:18:00] Pam: learn from and share with. People they don't even know. And so you see people when they're shopping for a vehicle, they will ask, how do you like yours? What do you like? What don't you like? And it's authentic word of mouth. And so from a brand perspective, if you create something wonderful and people love it and you make them feel valued and appreciated as customers, then hopefully they're the ones out there selling for you. [00:18:28] Ilyse: You know, you mentioned social media, and typically, at least, the younger generation are on social media. Is it more difficult to inspire those younger generations. They're known for being tied to their technology, I know the pandemic at least many people looked to go outside more. Now that it's more safe, is it harder to inspire those generations to think outside?[00:19:03] Pam: I don't think so. what I will say is getting outside with friends and family and sharing experiences. is something people, especially our younger people love to do. I think a lot of our younger customers will tell you that if they're new to the workforce or if they're in school, you know, they feel handcuffed to their responsibilities. [00:19:26] Sometimes when you get outside, you put the phone in the glove box and you go out for a ride and you just you turn the tunes on. You have a great time. You'll get back to the phone later. No question. And you're going to stop and capture a lot of content and share with your friends on on Snapchat and whatnot.[00:19:42] But it is 100 percent about sharing experiences, and they love that. But I will tell you, going back in time, Innovation has always fueled our category. That's just the new news. People always want the newest, latest thing. And for a long time, it was power, horsepower. Is it more [00:20:00] CCs? Is it, you know, bigger, better, stronger, faster? I will tell you, technology is playing a very large role now in what people are choosing to shop for. [00:20:10] So, a couple proof are, we have something called Ride Command. So, I want you to think about it. If you were off roading or going on a snowmobile ride, you're not on roads. And a lot of times you lose cell service out there. One of the biggest fears people have is getting lost. You're out there in the middle of the woods and you get lost. You're out there in the middle of the desert dunes, you get lost. We have ride command technology that the maps will work even when your cell phone service doesn't work. And that's super helpful. It also has a, capability ride. So say I out with different,[00:20:46] Ilyse: probably [00:20:48] Pam: we want to ride together, but I don't want to ride so close that I'm inhaling your dust or your exhaust. So we out, but you might come to a fork in the road and take a left and I go to the right. Now we lose each other. [00:21:00] That's not fun either. The ride command has a group ride function where I can see all the other razors in my group. So we can ride together. I'm doing air quotes, but we can separate. And then I still know where everyone is. So technology, it's not technology for technology's sake. It's actually making the ride experience better. And I think that is extremely relevant to our younger customers.[00:21:29] called group go five [00:21:32] Ilyse: sales climb. as, as more [00:21:43] Pam: want to spread for sure. You know, well, at my house, you know, at least in the beginning, I was Clorox wiping the groceries. So I think we all kind of have vague memories of those days and. Life wasn't very fun because you were trapped inside unless you could go outside on a walk or do something. And we saw our [00:22:00] business really sore because on one hand, from a recreational standpoint, it was something that you could do safely outside and actually think about off road riding. You could be riding with a bunch of friends and you could each be in your own vehicle. So you were safe. You're wearing a helmet. I spent that first summer of 2020. A lot of weekends out on our boat and out there, the world felt normal. So for sure we saw sales surge. [00:22:27] And we were concerned, though, thinking, Okay, this is great. But when people have other options to spend their money on, are they gonna just trade in all these vehicles and flood the market? And suddenly we're not gonna have a sustainable, you know, healthy business that we've been having. It's not the case.[00:22:47] We actually look very much at our repurchase rates, and we look at short term one year. We look at three year. We look at five year. We look at 10 year. When you look at the one and three year repurchase rates, they are [00:23:00] very healthy and the five year repurchase rate is very, very strong, which tells you that the customers we brought in in 2020, 2021, they aren't just abandoning.[00:23:12] They actually have found something that really works for them and they're continuing to come back and buy again. [00:23:18] And by the way, they're going to tell their friends and family. So we believe that, It's a, good example of I always say never waste a crisis. pandemic was tough for a lot of reasons, but it certainly gave our business a boost and brought in a lot of new customers. And it seems like it's a very healthy population we in.[00:24:36] Damian: That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:24:42] Ilyse: The current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.[00:24:48] Damian: And remember,[00:24:49] Pam: find the right show them how this could fit in with what they already do and make it better.[00:24:56] Damian: I'm Damian. And[00:24:57] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse. And[00:24:58] Damian: we'll see you next time. And [00:25:00] if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report. 

Foxtel Media CEO Mark Frain dishes on how the customer and advertising experience are shifting amid the proliferation of streaming. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damien Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to speak with Mark Fra, the CEO of Foxtail Media.[00:00:10] Damian: Foxtel Media is the advertising arm of the Foxtel Group, one of Australia's leading media companies, with more than 4. 7 million subscribers.[00:00:19] Ilyse: Like many legacy broadcasters, over the last decade, Foxtel has reinvented itself for the Netflix era, building on its pay TV subscription model by adding in streaming platforms such as Binge and Kayo. It supports streaming services.[00:00:35] Damian: And last year, Foxtel introduced an ad tier on the service, following in the footsteps of Netflix and Disney We started by asking Mark about the state of the television advertising model in Australia this year.[00:00:46] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think like the rest of the world, the TV market here in Australia is, going through significant change with the growth of, all of the streaming platforms with many of the, add tiers and add capabilities starting [00:01:00] to, launch in the Australian marketplace. Probably what is pretty unique, in terms of the Australian marketplace is that there's currently three major freeware broadcasters that all have their own, digital, platforms as well.[00:01:14] so they're managing transition from linear to digital themselves, but at the same time you've just got this enormous groundswell of video inventory coming from the streaming player. So we're, certainly getting towards a tipping point in the trends in the Australian TV marketplace at the moment.[00:01:31] Damian: Mark, could you just, put into perspective the growth of streaming that you've seen at Foxtel?[00:01:41] Mark: Foxtel has been on an enormous transformation for last four or five years. And if I look, probably four or five years ago, just under 10 percent of our subscribers were streaming customers. And if I look at where we are today, that number is just under [00:02:00] 70%. So a quantum growth in the type of customer we've got.[00:02:04] And critically, what that has also meant is that in the last four or five years, the Foxtel customer base Has grown pretty much close to 100 percent from where it was previously, and that's all been down to, the growth of streaming. And secondly, if I look at it from a Foxtel Media, advertising perspective.[00:02:27] And probably only three years ago that seven or eight percent of our advertising revenue came from digital. As we go into the next financial year, that number will be just under 60%. So we're the beneficiary of that change in customer base from Foxtel, from traditional broadcast TV business to one now that is, is leading and driving streaming the Australian marketplace.[00:02:51] Damian: Yeah, in terms of Foxtel, could you talk us through your relationship between, your existing linear model and [00:03:00] your launching of an ad tier on Binge?[00:03:03] Mark: Yeah. So traditionally, Foxtel has been the, major pay TV provider. In the Australian marketplace, with numerous, linear channels from sport, entertainment, news, all the typical, pay TV channels you would have, coupled with, two digital platforms, Foxtel Now, that have really been the IP services of Foxtel.[00:03:26] And then over the last four to five years, the Foxtel Group. Has launched heavily into streaming. Firstly, it launched KO, a dedicated sports streaming platform with over 40 premium sports, including both the major codes locally in Australia and a lot of the global content like Formula One, as an example.[00:03:50] About 18 months, two years after launch of KO, we then launched Binge. which is K. O. 's sister if you like, entertainment [00:04:00] platform backed by a lot of HBO, NBCU, content. So, made a significant jump, into streaming in the last three to four years. And that has allowed the Foxtel group to pretty much double its subscriber count, from being a traditional pay TV company to now one that plays heavily in streaming.[00:04:19] Damian: You know, in the streaming ecosystem, which we all know is highly competitive, right now, everyone's looking for subscribers and numbers, what's the competitive advantage that Binge brings to the table?[00:04:32] Mark: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, number one, it's enormously competitive. I think table stakes now are a premium level of content. unfortunately from the global content producers that we work with, coupled with our local content, I think we've got a significant library of content that has debt. I think if you, scratch the surface on some of the content offerings, you don't get the depth of premium content.[00:04:59] On [00:05:00] Binge, we've been very strict on running Four to five minutes of ads an hour on very tight on frequency capping just to make sure that, we give those customers that are buying into the value equation of subscription and advertising a very good customer experience, which includes both the content they're watching and also the advertising experience.[00:05:22] Ilyse: would you say Binge competes with other streamers when it comes to like content acquisition, production, and then maybe like ad experience?[00:05:33] Mark: Yeah. I think we're fortunate enough, that the way that almost the origins of the Foxtel pay TV business has given us relationships and longstanding content relationships with the likes of NBCU, Warner Brothers, Discovery, the BBC group, et cetera. So many of the big globally renowned, media businesses.[00:05:59] [00:06:00] So that has allowed us to transition a lot of that content from the traditional pay TV channels. onto an on demand platform like Binge, and then we've been a significant investor in local content. So we've been able to both produce a number of Binge originals but at the same time leverage the existing local content we've already produced across the Foxtel group. Almost, I mean, we often describe it internally as one kitchen with many restaurants. and by that, I mean by the many different points of distribution, whether that be a linear paid TV channel, or whether that be a binge, on demand platform.[00:06:45] so we talk a lot about, watchability as a term in our business and making sure that every platform that we represent, that the ad experience stacks up to be the most watchable experience for customers.[00:06:59] Ilyse: And does the [00:07:00] content you have speak to specific audiences? Or are you finding that your audience is really across the board?[00:07:11] Mark: There's no question. I think that's the beauty of the streaming platforms that various elements of kind of content bringing a very different audience. And we're in the streamer landscape, you're we're in this very much pause play mentality from a customer perspective. So if that content is so appealing for customers, they may come in.[00:07:35] And binge on that content for X amount of weeks or months and then dip back out.[00:07:40] Particularly with the under younger end of the market that come in and out and then maybe into another streaming platform where they've cited another bit of world kind of renowned content that's got heaps of social buzz with it.[00:07:52] Ilyse: Mm hmm. Yeah, right? That's what I was gonna say.[00:07:56] Damian: I think. Not to malign as a Gen X er. As [00:08:00] a millennial, I'm not[00:08:03] Ilyse: anything. Um, and so, that's interesting when you talk about, content in that way. and that has a lot to do with, viewer retention, as you mentioned. Is there anything else that, Foxtail is envisioning or, strategizing? to really hold onto those viewers or attract new ones.[00:08:25] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I think from our perspective, we've gotta, we've gotta continue to evolve, the customer and product experience. There is, there's not a moment to stand still in this streaming environment. whether that be improving the. The viewer quality from HD to 4K to 8K. I think customer expectations are so high.[00:08:50] And whatever we do, in terms of the content experience and the ad experience, we just got to make sure that total value equation, stacks up.[00:09:00] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, in the U. S. at least, bundling is very popular. especially if you're a major network like Disney that's bundling like three different of its like streaming services. What about when it comes to like partnerships with you guys? Are you looking into any of those types of offerings when it comes to like bundling?[00:09:22] Mark: Or, or are you looking to like partner with any network or streamer? , is kind of partnership is embedded in our model. whether that be, as I mentioned before, that the content partners, the Warner Brothers, the NBC use, of this world. So we've had a long standing relationships and partners with them moving forward and going back to the earlier points upon the value equation.[00:09:49] even in the core, Foxtel set top box business over time, we've continued to add, all of the streaming platforms to that service, whether it be Netflix, whether it be [00:10:00] Amazon, whether it be Paramount. So, customers have felt they were getting more of their content choices, more of their streaming platforms in, in one place.[00:10:10] So there's been a level of partnership with the streamers right from the outset even, with the core set, top box business, and we've carried that on, to where we are. today, in the last, few weeks we launched, Hubble, which is our, new streaming ion business. and within that, platform we've got a stack and save, opportunity for customers where.[00:10:33] to your point on bundling, the more subscriptions they have they get a bottom line discount and I think there's so many customers out there I put myself in that bracket that you sign up to numerous streaming services and half the time You don't know exactly how many you've got and how much you're paying for.[00:10:50] Um, so we've actually centralized that into One platform, one invoice, with a stack and save, kind of discount position for customers that have multiple [00:11:00] streaming options. So partnership is embedded in our model, no question.[00:11:03] Damian: Yeah, that's[00:11:04] Ilyse: easy. I wish we had that here, honestly. Because there's not one, really.[00:11:08] Damian: Yeah, right.[00:11:09] Ilyse: Kind of have to look back on everything you're charging, and that's, your card, and that's, that's[00:11:16] Mark: it doesn't take long for months to pass and realize you're still paying for Yeah,[00:11:24] Mark: In terms of like your kind of customer research or, your audience first approach, what are you hearing from your customers vis a vis, ads, the ad, not the ad experience per se, but whether, ads are a game changer for them, you know, in this era of kind of subscription fatigue and all of that.[00:11:43] Damian:  Are customers receptive to that ad load you're talking about and is that basically a selling point for Binge and your streaming channels when it comes to advertisers and attracting advertisers to those platforms?[00:11:57] Mark: in everything we do from a, [00:12:00] an advertising perspective to, respect our customers. We've got a very, customer first mentality within the Foxtel group. It's one of our, it's one of our values. And to your point, we test, the various levels. As I mentioned earlier, engagement and attention to our customers.[00:12:17] in terms of their level of response to the content and the advertising. And we kind of, we've seen their perceptions of, the binge brand hold really strong as we've added advertising to that platform. And you've got to look at the economic backdrop here. disposable incomes are under significant kind of, pressure, the hike in interest rates globally over the last.[00:12:43] 12 to 18 months have put enormous pressure on household spending. So I think the introduction of the ad tiers, not just the binge, but for a lot of the global players has been a, another, kickstart to, subscriber [00:13:00] growth levels, across the industry. And it just gives customers optionality.[00:13:06] and probably what was interesting When we added advertising to the binge platform, clearly we've done some modeling on what might be the churn levels of customer out of that tier and what might be the spin up into the next tier without advertising. And in both kind of cases, number one, the actual churn level in terms of those customers pulling out the platform was well under expectations.[00:13:39] in the zero point something kind of percent and a handful of more customers of spun up. So net, we were left with a scalable audience, even probably bigger than we actually modeled for our advertisers. So it was a really good story. So I think the research got us in the right place in terms of the ad experience we put forward.[00:14:00] Ilyse: I know we've written quite a bit about how, like, streaming is democratizing, sports in a way for, maybe perhaps, smaller brands to get in on sports, versus in a linear environment where it's, More expensive, usually. is that what you're experiencing? Is there a difference in brands wanting to advertise on linear versus streaming? Or, and how is that like playing out?[00:14:25] Mark: it's a good question. A lot of our, premium brands have transitioned into streaming at the same time to ensure they've got. Yeah. Brand presence and share a voice across both live linear and into streaming, but you're right that there's no doubt it's given opportunities for smaller brands to get on board and be involved in live sport, which historically may have been, cost prohibitive.[00:14:52] and what I would say in almost summary of that trend, we've, on our, major [00:15:00] sporting, properties here in Australia, whether that be the cricket, whether that be the AFL or the NRL, which I've already mentioned, in the last couple of years, we've had a record number of advertising partners on all of those kind of codes.[00:15:12] And that's been the blend of those big premium advertisers that have always been involved in sport, that have had the financial bandwidth to do so. Plus, A multitude of new brands that have come on, streaming. So we've got more, if you like major sports partners than you've ever had before.[00:15:30] Ilyse: I feel like it's also pretty interesting because when it comes to live sports streaming kind of offers an environment where, I don't know you can watch them at any point. For one thing, and then two, we've, at least we've written about how some more like niche sports are appearing in streaming environments, versus linear, and I'm curious what you think about that. Pickleball.[00:16:01] Mark: Great example. very timely, actually. last night I was, fortunate enough to be out with, wheelchair rugby Australia. and as an example, we brought, their content onto the KO platform, probably four years ago now. And what that has done to that code in particular, it's allowed them to grow exponentially in the number of teams that now play wheelchair rugby in the Australian marketplace, the number of participants they've got.[00:16:36] the number of females that are now playing it, and across those three or four years, the quality of that team has meant that they've been able to, they've won the World Cup, they've won the World Championships, and they're off to, the Olympics, later this year.[00:16:53] So, outside of the big ticket, sports, It's also great to show the impact you could [00:17:00] have on other sports that wouldn't be kind of, that aren't out there of competing for sports rights. It's a very different model about how you support them and their corporate growth moving forward.[00:17:12] Ilyse: know, it, it seems, even in Australia, it's a very fragmented media ecosystem. How are you thinking about measuring audiences, especially now with the rise of, alternative currencies? what's, the Aussie gold standard,[00:17:31] Mark: it's a fascinating question and I, myself and my team spend a lot of time, observing, reading, going to the U. S., the U. K. and observing the trends. And over the last probably three to four years, I mean, there has been a An explosion of alternate currencies in the U. S. when you look at the likes of, video amp and others taking the challenge to Nielsen, we observed that.[00:17:56] And whilst I don't think we're going to get to the [00:18:00] same level of different currencies in the Australian marketplace, I think you will see, publishers Probably grab the accountability of measurement themselves. moving forward. in this market, we've got, post town, which is a kind of, Nielsen supported, service and from a Fox sale perspective, we're part of that.[00:18:24] Industry standard, but we also recognize that we've got, set up box data with IP return path. We've got multiple streaming platforms. So a there's a role for us to make sure We leverage, that data probably more than we ever have. and that's not just to use it, internally in terms of retention and everything else you use your own data for.[00:18:52] But how do we actually use that for not just targeted advertising? How do we use it as a currency [00:19:00] moving forward? Because the depth of that data is so strong.[00:19:05] Now, While you were stating some of the various partnerships that you do have. And I'm just curious because it sounds like so many. how do you possibly manage all the partnerships? Especially with Foxtail's, yearly roadmap. I[00:19:24] it's a great question. I think, fortunately, a lot of, the content deals that the Foxtel business has is, Number one, they're multi year agreements, and therefore, the actual, the start and renegotiation dates, a lot of, a lot of those content deals are spread out across multiple years, so that gives us an opportunity to probably manage the heavy lifting part of those deals, which is often the renegotiation, and the work to move forward to continue a deal.[00:19:58] [00:20:00] But I think, this is not just, on the content side, this is certainly on the advertising side. One piece of feedback that we continually we get and probably more so than ever right now is the importance of senior relationships in the industry. Never have we seen probably an influx of such scale in terms of global streaming competitors coming to the market, particularly on The advertising and add to your side.[00:20:35] And one thing that I think we can, that can continue to stand the same good state is the senior level of relationships that we hold in the industry. And that's not, that's not exclusive to Australia. I think that's in any market. and that's one part that. We take very seriously in terms of how we manage, our partnerships, whether they be content or advertiser [00:21:00] related.[00:21:00] Damian: I guess we'd like to get a perspective of your, year in view. what's exciting you about the next six months?[00:21:09] Mark: I think going back to the point of kind of competition, we'll have, Amazon Prime will launch, its, advertising service, from a streaming video perspective later this year. Um, Paramount Plus have just announced the launch of their, ad tier. So there's enormous activity and interest in the category.[00:21:29] So our focus is number one, to be part of that growth curve in streaming video, if not leading in many, many areas, and probably one of the areas that I'm being truly honest, I wouldn't have forecast that it. Thank you. our involvement as a business, whether that be Foxtel Media or me personally, in audiences and in measurement, I've never been as personally involved, in that area.[00:21:59] And [00:22:00] I think there's a, there's an opportunity to get that right. and most importantly, getting that stands us in great stead for future growth. So seeing an explosion in both currencies and measurement, attention, engagement, and new metrics. So that feels like the new battleground for us moving forward and one that from a Foxtel perspective, we want to make sure that we lead.[00:22:27] Mark: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:22:33] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:22:39] Damian: And remember I'm Damian.[00:22:41] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.[00:22:42] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:22:47] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Chief Marketing Officer Kory Marchisotto joins The Current Podcast to discuss why the makeup brand e.l.f. Beauty decided to air a Super Bowl ad, and why other female-driven brands are missing out. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kory Marchisotto, the Chief Marketing Officer at e.l.f. Beauty.[00:00:11] Damian: Now maybe I'm the only one here, but I didn't realize that the word elf stands for eyes, lips and face. The brand was launched in 2004 and it filled a gap in the marketplace for inexpensive, high quality cosmetics. [00:00:26] Ilyse: Twenty years later, and e.l.f. has become a powerhouse brand. It went public in 2016, and since then has seen spectacular growth. Its sales soared last year, driven by retail channels and some seriously buzzy marketing.[00:00:42] Damian: We started by asking Kory, what gives the e.l.f. brand the edge in this very competitive marketplace?[00:00:50] Damian: So Kory, how do you think of the e.l.f. brand in this very competitive field? And what's your competitive advantage as it were?[00:00:58] Kory: I like to think about [00:01:00] e.l.f. as a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, created with the people. And for that to be true, we need to be totally in tune and have our finger on the pulse of what the people want, what they like, what are their unique needs, wants, and desires. So we really think about ourselves as stewards of our community's vision of e.l.f.[00:01:22] And that's a very unique place to be standing. How much value and emphasis we put on that community. They're, citizens of the brand. They have a vote, they have a seat at every table, and that is by definition, a very unique competitive advantage.,[00:01:41] Damian: speaking of competitive advantage, you've had tremendous, stupendous growth over the last five years. And I'm just curious to hear from you, what is supercharging this?[00:01:51] Kory: Over the last five years, we've grown our stock price. 1, 567 percent to be exact, [00:02:00] making us the number one performing stock on the New York Stock Exchange out of 1, 600. and 15 companies. So I think that definitely deserves your tremendous stupendous.[00:02:11] Damian: Okay, that's good. That's good. And what do you think, if you had to put your finger on two or three factors, what is it that is driving this upward, curve, as it were?[00:02:24] Kory: There's quite a few things and in the essence of time, I'll distill it to the three I think are most important. But for your audience, I think it's really important to go back to the beginning to understand the ethos of the brand, because it's the ethos that powers the purpose that powers the people, That power the performance.[00:02:42] So if you go back to the origins of elf in 2004, let's remember at this time Facebook hadn't launched yet. iPhones don't exist. Imagine this. Can you wrap your heads around that?[00:02:56] And So so we're back in the dark ages folks [00:03:00] and our founders dreamt up the impossible and made it happen. So they had this crazy idea that they could create premium quality cosmetics And sell it for one dollar over the internet.[00:03:13] So everybody told them, first and foremost, you cannot create premium quality cosmetics and sell it for a dollar. That's impossible. Second, you certainly can't sell color cosmetics over the internet. And third, even if you figure it out how to do number one and number two, you'll never make this a profitable business.[00:03:30] And aren't we glad that our founders disrupted from day one. So they have this renegade spirit, this bias for action, this quest to do the impossible.[00:03:42] One is our core value proposition, our very unique ability to deliver premium quality cosmetics at a jaw dropping value. The second is our powerhouse innovation,[00:03:55] And then the third is our disruptive marketing engine.[00:03:58] So our core value, [00:04:00] proposition, our powerhouse innovation and our disruptive marketing engine are definitely the drivers of our last 20 consecutive quarters of growth.[00:04:08][00:04:09] Ilyse: I'm curious about your out of box marketing because you guys are known for that. You really are. how did you cultivate this approach when you came on board as cMO?[00:04:20] Kory: at that time, there were some major shifts happening in the company.[00:04:25] So, Every company goes through various stages of growth, especially in a 20 year history. And the stage that I had walked into was a transformation from investing in retail. into marketing. marketing and digital, so when I started the company in at the onset of 2019, we were investing 7%. Of net sales into marketing and digital. Fast forward. We are now up to 24%. So you can see that there's a big investment in the power of the brand and building brand equity and building Brand [00:05:00] evangelism and all the things that we've been able to do over time.[00:05:02] So we see that as an enormous responsibility to make their time worthwhile.[00:05:08] It's interesting you call yourself an entertainment company. Or you see yourself as an entertainment company. And I would assume like The new digital channels that you play in have really helped you become such a company in this day and age, especially if you're selling something to consumers online, in stores, etc. To extent would you say digital channels have really opened up these possibilities to you? And I guess, channels do you like playing in the best?[00:05:45] We love all our channels equally, right? It's like our children. We love all our products. We love all our channels. I see all of our channels as learning opportunities. And the most important thing to remember is that they're all there to teach you [00:06:00] something different. And even if it's the same person who's coming to see you on Instagram and TikTok, they're actually on each platform for a different reason. So it's critical that we understand what is unique about the platform itself and what is unique about the reason that the person is coming to the platform. And that gives us a unique set of experiences and learnings.[00:06:26] So I think you see the pattern here that every time. We enter into a new platform. We go in with a beginner's mindset. We ask ourselves, how do we create something that is going to add a tremendous amount of value to the people that are here on the platform at the intersection of what it is that we do great. So it's really always this trifecta of beauty, culture, and entertainment. And we're bringing the best of all three to the communities on each platform.[00:06:56] Obviously you're known for your social media strategy, like [00:07:00] with this partnership with Liquid Death, but this year you also ran a national Super Bowl ad for the first time, which is always exciting for the first time for a brand. this one featured Judge Judy and cast members from Suits. So a little nostalgic on one hand. Can you talk about the strategy here? You obviously went into the humor category. What was the thinking behind this Super Bowl ad?[00:07:27] So there's this big conversation in the beauty space about dupes and your audience can't see me, but I'm making quotes because that has really ignited this entire conversation about people talking to each other about judging for all sorts of things in, the beauty space. So we started to see this conversation really take off, especially around price and people judging each other for, paying for overpriced makeup. So then we looked at what was happening in culture and [00:08:00] entertainment, and there was courtroom drama taking off everywhere.[00:08:03] Suits had its best year of viewership. Judge Judy was the number one program on Amazon Freeview. You had all things happening with Ronald from jury duty. so it was just this incredible cultural moment of all this courtroom drama coming together. And we said, well, that's pretty outstanding.[00:08:23] There's a lot of drama about judging and makeup injustice happening in the beauty world, and there's this incredible moment of courtroom drama happening over here. So once we tuned into both of those things, then we said, Okay, now let's put our head in the[00:08:38] stars and dream what could be possible. And only e.l.f. could dream big enough to say, what if we actually got the cast of suits? What if we actually went and got them? Judge Judy, what if we actually went and got Ronald and put him in our jury box? And these are really big lofty dreams, and that's how we love to operate at e.l.f.[00:08:59] [00:09:00] So that was our first national spot, which we decided to do after we tested the year prior with a regional spot. And when we had done the regional spot the year prior, it had broken every record we could have ever imagined, which was the signal that we needed to tell us to lean in even harder.[00:09:23] Ilyse: And if I'm not mistaken, that one also had some star power in it with Jennifer Coolidge. One of my favorite actresses[00:09:31] Kory: major stars of that campaign, Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer.[00:09:36] Ilyse: Yeah. What did you guys learn from the regional ad, specifically, if there are any lessons?[00:09:41] Kory: So we had never done a TV spot before at that time. So to your earlier point, we grew up in digital or a digital native brand. When we started to invest larger dollars into marketing and digital, we expanded all of our digital platforms. [00:10:00] First, we learned all about creating short form, medium form and even longer form entertainment content. So we had been building that muscle over time, and we also saw that our awareness numbers were rising and we wanted to fuel the awareness and open the aperture to more audiences and expose more people to the magic of Elf. we decided to take Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer to the biggest stage that there is, which is the big game. And our hypothesis was on that particular stage, women were being underserved. you have at that time 115 million people viewing the big game, of which 75 percent said the number one thing that they like about Super Bowl Sunday is The commercials. So you have a highly engaged audience and 50% of that audience is women.[00:10:58] So by every metric, it [00:11:00] was massively successful.[00:11:02] Ilyse: That is very interesting. Especially because this year, women's sports, women's live sports, are definitely, on the upswing. And there's, it seems to be, like, more brands want to partake, more, networks want to show women's sports, more streaming, platforms want to show women's live sports.[00:11:24] curious. If you intend to partake in any like women's specific sports in the future and how might that impact the e. l. f. brand?[00:11:37] Kory: We're very excited about women in sports, and we've been in the arena for quite some time, and we believe very strongly in supporting This initiative and empowering young women to not only engage in sports, but also stay in sports. I don't remember the exact stat off the top of my head, but there is a large amount [00:12:00] of young girls who drop out of sports at a very young age, and we really want to work together with powerful.[00:12:07] Women in sports to change that. So we've actually been working together with Billie Jean King, who is an extraordinary legend not only in tennis, but in multiple sports as well as in women's equality at large and Working together with her has been incredible. We're supporting her women's National Hockey League And when you start to get around all of these young women and watch their, watch them unleash their incredible talents and support them along their journey, it's real fuel to want to go further and deeper.[00:12:45] We're also, we also worked last year with Catherine Legg, who's a female driver at the Indy 500. So there's a lot of bold. Disruptors like a Billie Jean King, like a Katherine Legg, that [00:13:00] we will continue to work with to empower women in sports.[00:13:05] Damian: One thing you said earlier that was really interesting to me is that you really listen in to your community. And, when you launch initiatives like this, is this, do you see this as part of a sort of feedback loop that you tap into? And I'd just be curious to hear more about that audience first approach and that whole concept of listening.[00:13:24] Because I haven't heard that from every marketer.[00:13:27] Kory: I think it's fundamental and it's a service approach. And as I said earlier, when you're a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, you have to create with the people. This is their brand, not mine. I'm here to steward it for them. I'm here to shape it with them. So the only way I can do that is by listening very intently.[00:13:47] And a lot of people in my position rely on reports. I've seen reports. I don't want to have a relationship with reports. I want to have a relationship with people. So as the CMO of the [00:14:00] company, I'm probably more connected to our audience than anybody in our company. And the reason I do that is to make sure that they're with me in every room I go into, whether it's the boardroom, or the C suite, or every meeting, I am there as a representative of them.[00:14:17] And again, I take this back to, they're citizens and I'm their representative. And I'm here to legislate on their behalf.[00:14:26] Another thing that I do is I go on TikTok lives And have direct conversations with them, especially if something surfaces. So for example, it was surfaced to us that our community was very unhappy that we had taken one of our limited edition collections off the market. And that was called Jelly Pop.[00:14:45] It was a watermelon infused. And I was really curious about that because we had replaced it with Power Grip Primer and the reason we did that is very similar formula. The reason we did that is because we heard a lot of people say that they [00:15:00] didn't want to have fragrance in it. So we're like, okay, well, why don't we make it unscented? They love the sticky texture. We'll create this thing called Power Grip Primer and, it was wildly successful. But we still had this undercurrent. No matter what post we did, people were like, bring back Jelly Peps. Primer and I'm like, I need to understand more about this. So I went on a TikTok live to understand what is it that you don't have that you want and We really got under the hood to understand that it was an obsession with the texture, the format, and the scent.[00:15:32] They wanted it pink and they wanted it watermelon. So, so once I found that out, I said, I, really appreciate you. Thank you for. Sharing your vote with me on what it is that you want next. Well, now you're going to need to come on a journey with me because it takes a lot to move a product through an organization.[00:15:50] So I took our head of innovation and he was the next tech talk live, then our head of operations, our CFO. And then if they were convincing enough, which they were, they finally [00:16:00] got to the CEO. So our CEO came on tech talk live for our community to convince him to bring back jelly pop primer. And he folded in like 60 seconds. he saw the exclamation points, the capital letters, the, the nonstop thread, there was like 5, 000 people and they were all like, bring back jelly beans. It's okay. I'll bring it back over into 60 seconds. Done. So I think you get, I tell you that story because I think it gives you a unique flavor of how committed our organization is to the people we serve.[00:16:31] Our CFO and our CEO are bringing our community to those Conversations because they're directly involved with them and they have their own stories to tell about the magic of that community.[00:16:42] So, they're basically recognizing that they are a citizen of our brand.[00:16:49] Damian: I love the, the way you talk about citizens of, the brand. it's a really interesting way of looking at the fan base, the customer base, or however you [00:17:00] would, [00:17:00] describe it[00:17:00] Kory: Yeah, I don't love the word customer or consumer, because it signifies that you're only here to buy from us versus being a part of the thing that we're doing. And what I love about Citizen Is it showcases that you have a vote, that you have a vested interest and a deciding power in the thing that we're actually doing.[00:17:23] And I don't find any other word that captures that in the same way. So they are citizens of e.l.f. and they do have a voice and they do contribute to everything that we do. [00:17:38] Ilyse: about that citizen journey, there is quite a relationship between e commerce and in store experiences for you guys. How do. you leverage? your online audiences and then follow those citizens from app to store.[00:17:56] Kory: What's really important for us is to recognize that it all [00:18:00] needs to be fluid. So if you think about all of the possible touch points, some people are on 100 touch points, some people are on 10, some people are on 1. The important part is for them, it's all one world. They're seamlessly going from Our Roblox game to the floor of Target to our app to our website.[00:18:25] So what we need to do is make sure that we have an organization that [00:18:29] reflects that level of fluidity and that we don't have any friction points between those zones. So everything that we do has to be fluidly integrated across every touch point. So if we think about corpse paint, for example, we light up everything 360.[00:18:47] It's going to go. Live on our website live on our app. We're going to make sure that there are, uh, you know, social across all of our social channels. We're going to light up our live stream and we had rooms [00:19:00] in Roblox. So we basically see this as every time we turn on an activation, we turn on every switch across our entire ecosystem so that wherever you're interacting with our brand, you're finding a consistent thread throughout.[00:19:18] what are your priorities for 2024? What would you say is your guiding principle?[00:19:24] We go where our community takes us. And if I just take you on a quick journey of that, we didn't end up on TikTok in 2019 by accident. There was a hashtag of cosmetics that we didn't create that we had nothing to do with that three and a half million people were showing up to every day, which was basically them calling for us to be there.[00:19:46] We're hearing a lot that they want more from us in that regard. We actually did a pep talk series where it was all about these mini confidence boosts that we could bring to women. So [00:20:00] what's most important for me is not me making a decision or our teams making a decision about where we should go next, but rather going where our community guides us.[00:20:11] So you're going to continue to see us. On that path?[00:20:15] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:20:20] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:26] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.[00:20:28] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.[00:20:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:35] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

ADT's EVP and CMO DeLu Jackson joins The Current Podcast to discuss how the company's partnership with Major League Baseball's Miami Marlins reinforces the impact of live sports. Jackson also touches on why the marketing funnel isn't so much a funnel anymore as it is an “infinity loop.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:02] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. And[00:00:03] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:06] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with DeLu Jackson, EVP and CMO of ADT. [00:00:12] Damian: The home security's brand synonymous with its blue octagon logo, seen on front lawns and in windows across the United States, is turning 150 years old this August.[00:00:28] In all those years, ADT has seen its customers needs fluctuate, technology has given more power to individuals, and the inconsistent housing market is turning out more renters than owners.[00:00:40] Damian: Delu starts out by telling us what messaging the brand is leaning into as it reaches a new milestone [00:00:49] Ilyse: DeLu, ADT is celebrating its 150th birthday in August. That little blue hexagon basically has been known for a long time and signs in front of front [00:01:00] yards and windows across America.[00:01:02] How has the brand continued to evolve and how is the brand leaning into new messaging?[00:01:15] DeLu: you know, monumental 150th birthday. And for us, that's a really great testament as much to all the things we've accomplished in that 150 years. But more importantly, what it means for the next 150 years, because all of that's been driven by a consistent commitment to innovation, insecurity, safety and now even smart home.[00:01:38] So it's been the evolution of the definition of what it means to be safe, protected and connected. and for all of our history, we've been focused on making sure that we're the leader and providing that to our, customers. [00:01:54] Ilyse: and I understand there's even like a new campaign coming out soon? [00:01:57] DeLu: Oh, yeah. So part of this [00:02:00] innovation and this even history of it is recognizing that from our consumers always that, every second counts, right? That when we think about what we're doing, there's this tension between, living your life to the fullest[00:02:14] and having the opportunity to travel and do amazing things because the things that you care about are protected.[00:02:21] And so this idea that when every second counts, you can count on ADT and really always have is really exciting for us,[00:02:29] internally And externally. [00:02:31] It's such a Great manifestation of what we've always been and what we aspire to provide, going forward. [00:02:40] Ilyse: On that note, I remember even like five years ago I wrote a piece for Ad Age about how the brand underwent a marketing transformation to drive the message home that ADT is much more than a home security provider. With your smart home integration and your mobile security options for small and large businesses.[00:03:00][00:03:00] How has that, moved the needle forward. [00:03:02] What would you say is the perception of the brand today? [00:03:05] DeLu: say the perceptions continue to evolve and I'd say that the one great thing is that the foundational relevance of safety and security are still  super high for so many consumers. It's what they need. And as the space has evolved to  be more smart home and connected devices and, video and cameras, we've continued to provide that and customers are programming and our messaging have continued to reinforce that. with partnerships and with our continued platform innovation to provide those capabilities. So it's been a big part of our continued innovation and commitment to innovation for safety and security. [00:03:46] Damian: One of the things that's really interesting to me is your approach to ads in the campaigns that you launch. and I know that in 2023 switched from sort of more fearful or scary approach to a humorous [00:04:00] one. And I'm just wondering, you mentioned that tension between living your life to the fullest and also looking after things that matter.[00:04:06] Could you talk a little bit about that tension and how it informs [00:04:10] your[00:04:10] campaigns. [00:04:11] DeLu: I think it's really a really important one that we called the FUD or fear, uncertainty and doubt. And the YOLO, you only live once, and that's always been the tension that we see that the things that we protect customers from versus the things we protect them for. And we saw the insight that, That people really, lean into and get emotional about the things we protect them for.[00:04:40] And it really shows the value we create [00:04:42] when we demonstrate that, and we don't have to scare people to do that. We just need to demonstrate that we are really [00:04:49] there to take care of those things. And if we're there and in place taking care of those[00:04:53] things, then you can do some amazing things and live your life to the fullest.[00:04:57] And that's really, what our customers,[00:05:00] celebrate. And that's really [00:05:01] neat for us to know that we play a critical role[00:05:04] Damian: That's, that's fascinating. And do you have any sort of specific examples of how, customers have shared those things that ADT has afforded them, insight into their best lives [00:05:17] as it were.[00:05:18] DeLu: Oh, really fascinating is, [00:05:21] one of our big partners, looked on, just did web search and we looked at all of these great images of what people were doing with our signs in the background. So celebrating birthdays, celebrating my, first new business as an [00:05:36] entrepreneur, Celebrating graduations.[00:05:40] we had a video of a customer putting an alligator in a trash can in his front yard.[00:05:45] And that sign is there. [00:05:47] Sometimes it's in the background, sometimes it's in the forefront. But it's, been a part of all these big moments. and that's really interesting because it's just there and alive, out in the world every[00:06:00][00:06:00] Damian: Yeah. It's amazing. The power of that logo, actually, it's not something As prominent as, say, the Golden Arches. and at the same time, when you. think about it, it is ubiquitous. you see it everywhere, once you start [00:06:11] noticing it. [00:06:13] DeLu: like you said, if you go through neighborhoods and you start to really pay attention to it, you see how many places it's there, on a window, in a yard, on a business. [00:06:23] it is so iconic, and so [00:06:26] ever present.[00:06:27] Damian: Eilidh just mentioned that five years ago she was writing about ADT. And one thing that just occurred to me when she said that is in the last five years we've seen tech, undergo especially ad tech, undergo a kind of boom. And I'm interested to know how that has influenced the way you[00:06:44] approach your marketing,[00:06:47] DeLu: it really speaks to the omni channel nature of marketing. It's not one or the other, where our sales motion historically had been,[00:06:57] very much in the home,[00:06:59] [00:07:00] physical interactions and interactions with customers. The digital capabilities in terms of information presentation, information gathering, research, And even purchasing online and being able to buy online and even install it yourself.[00:07:15] All of that has transformed,[00:07:18] consumers engage with us even purchase. So we're present in all those channels now and make sure that we provide the right information based on the context of those channels. So it's been exciting, in terms of the different ways to reach consumers and connect with, their, evolving needs for safety[00:07:41] Ilyse: Speaking about your marketing, ADT has shifted from having an in house agency to now going back to an external partner. What basically inspired that shift back? [00:07:54] DeLu: Yeah, I'd say it's an evolution, right? So a few years ago had an opportunity to [00:08:00] hire a lot of great talent and bring them in house.[00:08:03] of build internal capabilities time we're really, leading capabilities as that continued to involve and partners start to bring new ideas. We started to add them to the roster[00:08:14] and for initiatives and projects. And as we move forward, they start to [00:08:18] bring bigger ideas and just through evolution and growth, our teams have added more of those back to our roster and expanded the team size. So now when you look up. it's more of an evolution than a revolution. We look up and we have a great internal team that drives certain capabilities. And then we've supplemented that With some leading partners just so that we can continue to innovate and deliver, on our customer expectations. [00:08:43] Ilyse: That is interesting. are there any specific channels that you perhaps are just increasing spend and time and effort on?[00:08:54] DeLu: Yeah, probably the one that's growing most is connected TV and streaming, you know, as more people go there, [00:09:00] but social is increasing as people consume more information YouTube, right? Those are continuing to grow because when we think about some people, when they purchase these types of solutions, they need more information.[00:09:12] And sometimes advertising creates interest, but we have to go other places to find, to make the purchase decision or find all the collective information. So I would say is as much, [00:09:22] communicating effectively as it is advertising and marketing. It's really the expansion of communicating effectively across all of those channels. I think that's a really[00:09:31] important distinction for us because we think about it as part of our communication strategy or go to market strategy, not simply what we would call marketing. It's more comprehensive. [00:09:42] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that is your go to market strategy, though, tied to, in some ways, the health of the housing market, because presumably, you're looking to reach people who are buying homes, setting up homes. absolutely. people move, relocate or, [00:10:00] remodel homes, the[00:10:02] self improvement craze, all of those things, those are, moments that are identified where people make the decision to upgrade a system, add a system, upgrade a system, or reactivate a system. So we definitely, are very present in those activities, online and in physical, channels.[00:10:18] we've also seen things like, the growth in renters. So we have a, DIY or ADT self set up product. We also work in the multifamily space, where, more users, or builders and, property [00:10:31] managers can support the, units and the, renters in those units. Again, Different needs, different need states, and leading brands like ADT are providing more options for consumers to protect[00:10:45] Damian: That's interesting what you said about renters and the Renters leaning into using the self setup. you say a little bit more about that? What's the potential for that market right now? [00:11:00][00:11:06] DeLu: DIY solutions gives people the opportunity to, you Create more affordable solutions as well as they're portable, right? We can take them with me. and so, it's just part of the evolution of the nature of security, how technology has changed it and made it more accessible and more available to more people.[00:11:26] So it's not just when you're in a home you own, it's in, The home that's yours, or what you call home, and that expanded portfolio has allowed us to provide protection to more families, small businesses, and again, more people.[00:11:43] Ilyse: Now, when it comes to generational differences between homeowners and renters, how do you look at those different subsets of consumers and target to them effectively across channels? [00:11:58] DeLu: Interesting, because we look at the need state [00:12:00] and the use cases. We call them demand spaces. And really, it's sort of life stage and there's some key things, right?[00:12:07] How often do I relocate? Younger audiences tend to move more, right? Some even current[00:12:12] generations just move more in general than historically. Then you have more stable where people buy a place and they stay in a place a long time. They have slightly different characteristics. But interesting thing When you're in the business for 150 years, we've been through so many generations [00:12:28] of families who have started with us, grown up with us, grown old with us and pass it on to the [00:12:34] next generation. So that's again, really interesting dynamic that we've seen over all those [00:12:40] decades of presence, that those, those behaviors are really about life stage, affordability, and then. Portability and mobility, relative to those, generations. And so we look at all of those signals to provide solutions that work for consumers across those need states. [00:12:59] Damian: it's very interesting [00:13:00] that there's a sort of generational handing down of the brand. And I hadn't even considered that in, the context of security. [00:13:08] DeLu: We have so many people who would tell us that I grew up with it. was always there. And it was that, thing that I needed when I needed something, I knew to push the button, or I knew to call, or I knew how to set it, and I remember some of my first memories of setting it, when I'm home, or I'm watching a little brother or a cousin, and so it's a really fascinating, role it's played in so many lives for so and there's just many of those, insights [00:13:37] Ilyse: Now, how do you go about measuring the impacts of the campaign investments that you are making? [00:13:44] DeLu: Yeah, we use a number of but I think what's really interesting for our team is because we're a direct seller, we have the ability to measure, our investments right down to not just the sale, but to the installation.[00:13:57] we can look in time at all of our investments in [00:14:00] our media mix and understand when we invest, have something in or out, or we change campaign or content, What's the impact through the entire funnel?[00:14:09] And I'm fortunate to have a great team from advanced analytics to performance measurement that works together every day with our teams to literally measure that and look at the things that are happening and changing by the day over time. So we have a really interesting, rich body of insight to help us understand, the impact of every investment. [00:14:30] Ilyse: one thing with omni channel environments is that a lot of marketers are saying, basically, that with, like, CTV and, commerce, almost like the funnel is collapsing in a sense. what would you say to that? [00:14:44] DeLu: I would say it's less of a funnel than a little bit of an infinity loop, right? People are gathering information.[00:14:52] Pre, during, post, even after they purchase, they continue to gather information, reaffirm, and right, [00:15:00] optimize their choices. So I think it's really, it's not a funnel that kind of goes to the bottom and people stop.[00:15:07] I think people just continue to, consume information and insights. so I think we kind of have to be always on and again, omnipresent to meet those[00:15:18] Damian: And speaking of omnipresent and this is a bit of a pivot, but I know you partnered last year with, Miami Marlins in a multi year deal. I'm curious to hear from you, On why sports sponsorships are part of your strategy. [00:15:32] DeLu: Yeah, this was a really exciting one for us. And part of it was, beyond just sports sponsorships. This was the first time that they were doing, branded, advertising on major league baseball uniforms. What we liked about it was the context. And if you go to the stadium, you'll see when you're around third base, it says, Safe at Home.[00:15:52] And when they score a run, it lights up and it says safe at home brought so really neat, right? Some people were thinking it was [00:16:00] really about impressions, right? How much visibility will the, brand visible? That's a really important one. But what we saw was this great context, safe at home.[00:16:10] It's also a great family venue. It's great for employees. It's great for, And by the way, they play 81 games at home and 81 games on the road. So the brand travels. and then lastly, I would say really cool with the partnership, beyond the community work we do and the development of, of our philanthropy and, giving kids safe places and safe spaces to, grow up and learn sports and develop.[00:16:36] we also, have the patches on both arms. So when you look at visibility, it's visible for most of the game, because if you're, a right handed batter, it's on the left sleeve. And if it's on the left hand, it's on the right sleeve. Same with the pictures so that the brand is ever present. And finally, I'd say what I loved about it is, as in the stands or on the road talk about it, they [00:17:00] knew the context.[00:17:01] They said, well, they must need extra protection. And it's like, they understand context in which we operate. And I really love that is that it wasn't just a brand that was there. It was a brand that made sense being there.[00:17:17] what was really great about that. I love building on that is that when we think about media and the concept of media, this was a big part of it. we use comparisons to what are the number of impressions, media impressions and back to context, contextual delivery of our messaging with these partnerships and each of them gave us the opportunity to get, a large amounts of media and visibility for the brand in a very specific context that reinforces the things that we want to home or safety [00:18:00] help communities stay safe and these are So when you look at that from a pure media perspective, live sports. And sports in general have, broad reach audiences. they have sequentially different audiences based on events and locations. And so give us a lot of great reach, uh, and in some cases great frequency, as I described with, baseball and, on the road.[00:18:25] We also look at the media markets. Where do they play? You know, so really interesting when you think about it in the context of media versus just, as an event, impressions. worked environments. of [00:19:00] Sure. it really is the evolution you described I caught the tail of the digital revolution, if you will, in marketing. Where as technology started to transform the way we go to market, thought about consumers, thought about the paces which we operate. and the convergence of technology and what we call traditional marketing, right?[00:19:31] Digital used to be a unique thing that's set between IT and marketing. And then, as you said, they continue to converge in terms of the way consumers engage with those spaces. So then the teams started to come together. And I've been fortunate to have opportunities to work across those different disciplines And bring those things together for organizations who were going through those transformations and help individuals of all help teams of all and help organizations evolve to [00:20:00] bring those things together.[00:20:01] So my career has been one of sort of the brands you mentioned. amazing organization transformations around the world and really been, an exciting time to be part of marketing. [00:20:13] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay[00:20:18] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:25] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.[00:20:27] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.[00:20:28] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:32] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Crunch Fitness' CMO, Chad Waetzig joins The Current Podcast to explore how Crunch is developing their on-demand workout streaming app, how they're leaning into performance marketing versus brand-building and why digital media is the best way to reach its gymgoers. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. [00:00:03] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the current [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Chad Waitzig, the CMO of Crunch Fitness, who leads the brand's marketing and communication efforts for its gym locations all over the world.[00:00:17] Damian: Headquartered in New York City, Crunch serves 2. 5 million members with over 460 gyms worldwide and continues to expand in the U. S. and around the globe.[00:00:28] While Crunch has built a community of fitness enthusiasts at its physical locations, it has also been on a mission of expanding its reach on digital.[00:00:37] We start by asking Chad about how he'd characterize the gym's marketing goals.[00:00:43] Ilyse: so Chad, how would you characterize the marketing mission for Crunch?[00:00:48] Chad: It's really important for us, to both build comprehension around what the crunch brand experience is.[00:01:05] And we think we've got a pretty unique offering in the high value, low price space and in fitness, but it's also to drive leads and it's to fill that, consumer funnel, with folks who are interested in exploring a fitness workout, And building that lead base so that our franchisees, our partners in our marketing journey, can invite them into the gym, give them a free trial, and encourage them to join and continue their fitness journey with us.[00:01:32] so as we think about what we do day in and day out, I'd say that, 80 percent of what we do is focused on how can we introduce the brand to more people and drive leads into the system.[00:01:41] Damian: Now, can you talk about your latest campaign and how that works? I know you're talking about, a kind of big campaign, but you're also then trying to target local gyms and gym spaces and demographics. Can you talk about how that relationship works?[00:01:54] what about the new campaign? Feel good, not bad? [00:01:57] Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So we're, really excited about feel good. [00:02:00] Not bad. we launched the campaign on December the 26th, which is, basically the start of our year, immediately after Christmas. and the, conceit or the gestalt of the campaign is to. recognize that as a country, we've gone through a lot of bad stuff, and, there's a lot of bad in the world, and we don't want to focus on the bad in the world, but we know that it's out there and  how do we, recognize that a way to combat that is to feel good, and to feel good.[00:02:31] You can do that through working out. So the whole campaign is focused on this idea of telling a story about the bad things that happen through silly, humorous, metaphors, banging your head on a drawer, getting stuck in a revolving door, waking up in the desert on a camping trip with a snake.[00:02:52] Attached to your face, really absurd, silly things as a metaphor for the bad in the world, and that through working out and through [00:03:00] working out at crunch, you can get those endorphin rushes. you can escape from the world. You can forget all the bad that's out there and really focus on yourself.[00:03:07] You can really lose yourself at crunch. so that's, the gestalt behind the campaign or the, idea behind the campaign. Now, the way we execute that campaign, and we do it in partnership with our franchisees, is through a mix of brand marketing, performance marketing, and retail marketing. And so we've designed, creative assets that kind of take you through that entire journey, whether it's television, radio, direct mail, or digital marketing assets, that really tell that story in a layered way as a consumer moves through the journey.[00:03:41] Damian: Yeah, that's interesting. now you mentioned the campaign, the Feel Good, Not Bad campaign is one that really dives into humor to convey how fitness can be fun. We recently had on this podcast, the CEO of BBDO, Andrew Robertson, who talked about the importance of funny ads and why they're so important.[00:03:59] [00:04:00] To building a brand's identity. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. and why is Funny the right fit for you?[00:04:07] Chad: Yeah, first of all, I would agree with his assessment. And, at our heart, we're storytellers, right? All marketers are storytellers, and we're telling the story of our brand and our business. And humor, leveraging humor, is one way to tell that story in a way that we think breaks through the clutter.[00:04:26] We're a gym for goodness sakes, right? We're a place where people come to, to get better. whether that's more, more flexible, whether that's to build endurance, whether that's to lose weight, whether that's to gain strength and muscle, but we also don't take ourselves too seriously. And so we think that, our no judgments philosophy, the way we approach our members and the way we approach our experience, it really lends itself well to humor.[00:04:50] But the other thing to keep in mind too, is that. Humor can work in almost any business. think about insurance. 20 years ago, if you had said, we're going to use humor to tell [00:05:00] the insurance story, people would have thought you were crazy. Maybe it's more than 20 years now, but, Geico really broke through the clutter and now look at everybody in that category, right?[00:05:08] They all leverage humor for something that is not a very funny product. our product isn't funny, but our product and our experience is fun. And we think humor helps us tell that story. [00:05:19] Ilyse: Now here we talk a lot about digital channels, obviously, programmatic, CTV, and, there's a Common philosophy or really it's just a fact at this point that, that's a good way to reach like younger consumers. is that what you are finding? Are you trying to reach millennials and Gen Zers specifically?[00:05:44] ​Or are you looking at whole cohorts of people? Consumers, what is your approach?[00:05:50] Chad: our core consumer is somebody that we call young strong on social, they are our north star. They're the group that we [00:06:00] focus on, for crunch, about a quarter of our member base is made up of. Of people 18 to 24, about a third of our member base are members 25 to 34, so the majority of our members are in that 18 to 34 age range, and that's our young, strong and social group.[00:06:16] Now, we run, we have, campaigns available for our network, to target seniors, active seniors. boomers, Gen, Gen Xers like me, but really our focus is on the 18 to 34 and we do find that digital media channels, are really the best way to reach that audience, right? They, by and large, they're not cable TV subscribers.[00:06:39] they watch a lot of YouTube. They're on social media. and we find that, one of the best ways for us to build awareness is either through CTV, or through YouTube. Uh, and those are the two channels where we are dominant.[00:06:52] Ilyse: And I know you've also spoken about, TV itself too, a little bit. How has like this omni [00:07:00] channel like approach really benefited your brand?[00:07:04] Chad: Yeah, for us, it's been a journey. today we've got 460 gyms and about 2. 7 million members, and we're celebrating our 35th anniversary, but, we're still a small business. when I joined Crunch seven years ago, we had about 125 locations and, obviously we were significantly smaller.[00:07:21] So our dollars, We had to make a strategic choice back then, and our strategic choice was to invest in performance marketing almost exclusively at the expense of brand marketing. Now that we've grown, and now that we're bigger, and we have the, The resources available to us the critical mass. We have found that the omni channel approach for us has paid off in spades.[00:07:46] Our brand awareness has tripled in the last three years, whether that's aided or unaided. And we find that then drives. more consumers to consider us. Our consideration is higher, which then [00:08:00] leads to greater lead production, and greater sales. And, the brand doesn't do it alone.[00:08:05] Our franchisees play a big role in that, but if we had not made that strategic shift to really focus on the Omni channel, I don't think our results would be as strong as they are today.[00:08:17] Ilyse: And today, are you mostly now looking at consumer retention or learning new members to join? It does seem, we talk a lot about streaming wars, but it does seem like there's quite a lot of gym wars out there now.[00:08:31] Chad: Yeah, you know, the fitness industry is, really an interesting one. It is competitive. so today about one in five Americans belongs to a gym, a health club, the Y, or a boutique studio. Now, that number 10, 15 years ago was probably closer to 15%, 14%. The category itself is growing.[00:08:51] So when, crunch wins, the whole category wins when our competitors, when the category wins, cause we are growing the category, but we do compete [00:09:00] for a lot of the same folks, people do switch gyms, they break up with their old gym, they, join a new gym. and so it is a mix for us on the acquisition side.[00:09:09] To both bring new people into the category that maybe are just considering a gym for the very first time, but we're also trying to steal members from other clubs that without a doubt, and our competition would probably say the same. So in answer to your bigger question, how do we think about it is about retention is about acquisition.[00:09:27] It really is both. [00:09:29] Damian: It's interesting. you know, we did use the analogy of streaming, but there's a lot of churn in streaming. you turn off your subscription for one and then you turn it on for another. We just had some data recently that said, I think 30 percent of people who cancel return within a few months to the channel.[00:09:43] So, it's an interesting game, I guess. Yeah,[00:09:49] Chad: of our biggest sources of leads. we very much, look at our former members as potential future members, and they do come back.[00:09:57] Ilyse: Very interesting. Yeah. And, speaking of [00:10:00] streaming, Crunch has its Crunch Plus platform and I know this was a big kind of trend overall, no matter what category you're in, during COVID and everything was to go digital, make sure your product is available where the people were, which is their living rooms at home.[00:10:18] and now it's a little more than a year old. and it obviously it built on what you had before, which is crunch live. Can you tell us how this has been performing and how you would describe the divide between people going in person to the gym and potentially those working out at home now?[00:10:38] Chad: Yeah, really great question. So you're right. We launched, crunch plus about a year ago, and we retired an old platform that we had that was called crunch live crunch live we were the first big box gym to have our own streaming workout product it launched way back in 2013, and it was browser based [00:11:00] only.[00:11:00] Ilyse: Way pre COVID before it was cool.[00:11:03] Chad: it was cool. Before it was cool. And during COVID, we saw our daily usage. Increased tenfold, with a fairly limited library of workouts. And so we clearly realized that we needed to reintroduce our streaming products and that's how we got to crunch plus. So now crunch plus is available on, just about every streaming device.[00:11:23] And, we couldn't be more pleased with where we are today. versus our launch. and just this year alone versus where we finished, in December of last year, our user base on the platform is up 47%.[00:11:39] we have over 600, Workouts available and we're adding the goal is to add one workout a day Either through live streaming or through pre recorded content to the library And we see crunch plus as really both a member benefit. So if you are a crunch member, You get access to crunch plus and basically a [00:12:00] 70 discount off the retail price.[00:12:02] it's incredibly Affordable. It's 1. 99 a month. and so for our members, it's a way to take that brand experience outside the four walls of the gym, whether they're wanting to work out at home, or maybe they travel a lot and they want to take it on the road, but they can also take it right back into the gym.[00:12:19] And so we've got workouts that, are on a treadmill or on a spin bike, or require the use of dumbbells and other equipment that you may not have at home, We've got in the crunch gym. And so we've really created this hybrid workout environment between in person in the gym and virtual on crunch plus, and now for our retail subscribers, those that are not crunch members. they pay 6. 99 a month. ​Again, it's, an incredible value relative to other products in the marketplace, and we think it's a great way to extend the brand and reach into markets where crunch doesn't exist yet. you can get crunch plus anywhere in the world. we've got 460 locations and [00:13:00] 360 of them are in the United States.[00:13:01] So we have lots of growth ahead of us in terms of our physical footprint, but we love where our digital footprint has taken us.[00:13:10] Damian: Yeah, that's a great move. I see people in the gym with, their smartphones looking at workouts and things. It makes sense for you to have that workout associated with, crunch, or the gym in question.[00:13:21] Chad: that's exactly right. and we really have only started to scratch the surface of where we can take this. I mean, one of the biggest challenges for new people who have never worked out in a gym before is the intimidation that they feel when they come to the gym. And, Most people think about the intimidation as being the, I've got to lose weight before I join the gym mentality, right? the body image concerns. But think about this. If you've never been to a gym before and you walk in the door, you are seeing all kinds of foreign alien equipment with pulleys and weights and pins and benches that articulate in different directions.[00:13:58] Where do I even [00:14:00] start? And what we think CrunchPlus is going to be great for is to give people who are completely new to the gym experience that introduction of how do I get started? What is the best workout for me? How does this piece of equipment actually work? If I'm concerned about how I might be perceived by others, let me watch this video and see how to set this up correctly.[00:14:21] so we're real excited about where we're going to continue to take this platform as it continues to grow and mature.[00:14:26] Damian: Yeah, that's a great point.[00:14:27] Ilyse: could have used that for sure. Yeah, you[00:14:29] Damian: and you see some of these, dudes in there, they're massive and they're making it look like, child's play. I'm like, what? This,[00:14:36] Chad: Right,[00:14:37] Damian: this is scary. Yeah. [00:14:41] Chad: The great thing about those guys, though, is if you ask them for help, they're going to jump right in and help you. they're very proud to share. Here's, how you do this.[00:14:48] Damian: Mm. It's a community, right? a fitness community.[00:14:52] Chad: absolutely. Absolutely. It's the community. In fact, we just did a recent member survey, new member survey, [00:15:00] and we found that 46 percent of our new members, have actually made new friends or founded a community at crunch just by joining and getting to the gym.[00:15:10] So we do think crunch is a great place to build community and our members that it's one of the reasons why they join. [00:15:17] Damian: And speaking of community, you have recently teamed up with Amazon One. Can you talk about how that partnership improves the membership experience for your customers?[00:15:28] Chad: we love our partnership with Amazon. it has gone really well. And they've been, as you can imagine, they're one of the largest companies in the world. They are very sophisticated in what they do. And, they've been a great partner to work with, for those, listeners that aren't familiar with the Amazon one product, it is a biometric device reads basically the palm of your hand.[00:15:49] It is a touchless device. You basically hover your palm over their reader and it identifies you uniquely. So apparently the palm of your hand is as unique as your fingerprint [00:16:00] or your retina and, Amazon has piloted this in, I believe it's being rolled out in Whole Foods.[00:16:07] I believe they have a partnership with Panera. And then they were piloting it in their own C Store concept for a while. We got together with Amazon to really be the first to bring it to the fitness environment. And the initial application or use case is to validate a member's entry into the gym. And What we found is I think a couple of things.[00:16:32] there's a back office business case which reduces fraud for us. So we don't have members sharing their key tag with their barcode with friends, right? Because now I only can get in with my palm. So that reduces, that concern. But from the perspective of our members, it shows that we're progressive.[00:16:57] We're forward thinking. we've got the latest [00:17:00] technology and we're bringing that into the environment. and we've seen adoption close to 80 percent in the locations where we've rolled it out. There are some folks that are still concerned about having their biometric data. read by Amazon, and we respect that and we'll still have the old way of scanning barcodes at the front desk, but for the vast majority of our members, it allows them to get into the gym quickly and get right to their workout.[00:17:24] Damian: Mm. That is fascinating. I actually didn't know about Amazon One, [00:17:27] Chad: Yeah, if you have a Whole Foods near you, next time you go to a Whole Foods, see if they've got it. it's how I use, it's how I check out at Whole Foods. it is faster than even, Apple Pay and Google Pay, I[00:17:39] Damian: Wow. Mm.[00:17:41] Chad: I think it's a pretty great service.[00:17:42] Damian: in general, when it comes to partnerships, how important are those kind of brand partnerships for Crunch?[00:17:49] Chad: they're really important and, you can think about partnerships for us, at least. We think about it in a couple of different levels. One is this kind of, Big strategic capability [00:18:00] enhancing partnership, which we have with Amazon, and we've got obviously have partnerships with some of the best, equipment manufacturers in the fitness space, right? Whether that's through life fitness or, TRX or the other, brands of the space, and we look at that as a way to enhance our member experience. We've got a really talented member experience team headed up by our chief experience officer, Molly long and, Molly and her team are thinking about ways that they can bring these kinds of big brand partnerships that are enablers.[00:18:34] To bear on the member experience. But on the marketing side, we also look at brand partnerships as a way to enhance your existing membership. So we do partnerships where we provide our members access to crunch only discounts. So we have one right now with Crocs where members can get a discount on Crocs shoes that's proving to be very popular.[00:18:58] ​And one of the ways in [00:19:00] which we talk about our membership, pricing with our members. and so one of the things that we like to say to prospective members is that if you take advantage of all the discounts that you can get through your crunch membership, all the retail discounts with our brand partners, your membership practically pays for itself.[00:19:14] And so we like to think that because it is a membership, you are part of a community, you are part of a gym, you are part of a club. If we can give value back to that member, it only makes that membership more valuable to them. So for us, those brand partnerships are super important.[00:19:30] Damian: we want to talk about first party data, of course, and we want to talk about that and how that informs some of your campaigns. And we assume, given that you have this great membership, global membership, it's not necessarily an issue for Crunch.[00:19:43] But how do you go about, leveraging that first party data to inform your marketing efforts? [00:19:49] Chad: so obviously our first party data even more so today than in years past is important to us and being able to leverage that data is [00:20:00] an important part of what we do both on the brand marketing side, but also are we work with our franchise partners for them to execute on their local marketing side.[00:20:08] Our media agency of record is USIM, and through USIM, we have an identity resolution initiative with TransUnion, where we enrich our first party data anonymously, with the TransUnion data, and we use that for audience building, lookalike audience building, Former member, audience building, et cetera, et cetera.[00:20:29] And a lot of that is used, through programmatic. it, it informs, what we do, in terms of, our targeting. the way in which we've structured our media approach, brand marketing happens through the Crunch marketing team. We also pick up search, on behalf of our network, just given the complexities of search and the ever changing, approach to paid search.[00:20:54] we. We feel like we're in a better position to manage that on behalf of our franchisees than asking our franchisees [00:21:00] to do that. Really everything in between is through our franchise partners and we have four brand approved agencies that they can choose to work with And we work with them To make sure that they have access to first party data so that they can also enrich that data and do first party, audience building, et cetera.[00:21:20] So for us, it's a critical component of what we do. And again, of, what we spend, I would say that, from. CTV all the way down through search, probably 90 percent of our spend across the network is digital.[00:21:36] Ilyse: Very awesome. I actually have a question about first party data. Are you able to glean more, say from Crunch Plus? Because people are tuning in and you're able to see, what kind of workouts they're choosing, what kind of, when, they are actually working out.[00:21:55] It must be very revealing, even more so than your regular, gym [00:22:00] customers that come in.[00:22:02] Chad: it's actually, that's actually a great question and it is true because obviously we control and manage the crunch plus platform of the 600 plus videos or workouts that we have. We can see what the viewership is. We can, we understand the view through rate on each of those. We know what each subscriber is watching and what kind of workouts they're doing and the frequency with which they're doing that.[00:22:26] and that's rich data that. We don't necessarily have easily accessed on the gym membership side. so from that standpoint, in terms of building out new workouts, as an example, we found that the 20 minute workout videos were the most popular in the group. And yet when we launched, we were launching with 30, 45 minute workout videos.[00:22:51] We pivoted very quickly to doing more over 20 minute workouts. And what we found is. The 20 minutes were actually too long based on view through [00:23:00] rates. So we launched a number of what we call quickies, right? They're five minute workouts and the viewership on those has skyrocketed. that's where we've leveraged that first party data to learn on the gym side, it's a little bit more challenging, but we're actually building out more of a, first party data set around.[00:23:16] utilization of the gym. We know when they check into the gym. If they book and take a group fitness class, we know that they're doing that because that's an online reservation system. we know when they buy a personal training package and when they take personal training sessions. And so the next level for us as an organization is to better activate that first party data so that we can do a better job on member retention.[00:23:40] upselling into higher tier memberships, and cross selling into other parts of our business.[00:23:45] Ilyse: And based off of that, and knowing that you guys are located in 41 states,[00:23:51] Chad: Yes.[00:23:52] Ilyse: you can probably tell me which states are the fittest in the U. S. in terms of attendance. I mean, I'm just [00:24:00] curious.[00:24:00] Damian: just[00:24:01] Chad: so that's a really good question.[00:24:04] Ilyse: New York, I know.[00:24:05] Chad: I, I can, I can say I can say that,[00:24:09] Ilyse: work out a lot here.[00:24:10] Chad: there are certain markets. the southeast is one of them where the number of visits per member is higher than the average. Obviously, we have an average, per month in the southeast. Really strong gym attendance.[00:24:26] I'm not going to say whether or not they're more fit than[00:24:29] Damian: Yeah, you can't know that.[00:24:31] Chad: but utilization does vary based on, based on market. I don't know how much of that is driven by weather, or how much that's driven by lifestyle. [00:24:39] Ilyse: who's the laziest[00:24:40] Chad: in New York City, New York City, we have really strong, really strong utilization of the gyms, best ever, better than pre pandemic.[00:24:48] Ilyse: Oh well.[00:24:49] Chad: but we've seen that across the board that the utilization of our gyms post pandemic has been at a higher level everywhere than versus than pre pandemic.[00:24:59] Ilyse: People [00:25:00] want to get out there again.[00:25:01] Chad: I think people want to get out there. Yep. I think they recognize that the role of fitness in, in relieving stress and anxiety is important.[00:25:08] Ilyse: How do you then tailor your messaging? Based off of location, especially if you're, talking to the fittest people in the U S versus the laziest,[00:25:18] Damian: people in[00:25:20] Chad: we wouldn't say that we're all about no judgments,[00:25:22] Damian: no, of course.[00:25:23] Chad: there, there is no one type, there is no one reason, there is no one way, for us at Crunch. but we do build out marketing assets that allow our franchisees, who are the closest To the member than we are here in the puzzle palace here in New York City, right in the ivory tower.[00:25:42] and we make sure that we provide assets that, if your club is really strong in group fitness classes, that we've got the assets for you there. If your gym is really big into strength training, which is virtually all gyms. Now we've got lots of strength training assets, or if you're into hit workouts, or if you're into [00:26:00] Kids Crunch babysitting is important because you've got a lot of younger families and they need to have child care when they come to the gym and work out and we allow our franchisees then to use those assets to tailor their marketing communications based on their local needs.[00:26:16] Damian: It's interesting. Now, you mentioned, maybe people in warmer climates and warmer states going to the gym maybe than others, but I don't know whether that holds true, but what I wanted to ask you about is what does the marketing calendar look like for a gym like Crunch? especially around key moments, we're here, A good third of the way into the year, but January's obviously got to be a big moment for gyms because everyone has that resolution to get fit again, New Year's resolutions, and then there's the summer, approaching, people think about, oh, I've got to be back on the beach, what should we do?[00:26:50] How do you strategize around those moments?[00:26:55] Chad: Yeah, there is certainly a seasonality to, to both visitation and [00:27:00] membership joins new members joining the gym. the first quarter of the year is the. The most important quarter of the year for us. it is our Black Friday and Cyber Monday and holiday season. and we do structure our spending accordingly, right?[00:27:14] So we'll heavy up in Q1, in the months later in the year when gym memberships aren't as, The demand isn't as high. We will adjust spending accordingly. So we do balance that out throughout the year. So we do marry up spend with demand. Within any given month, we will run a series of national promotions that our franchisees can opt into.[00:27:39] And they tend to be priced Price driven, because that's the category we're in, but we provide the support to the franchise network around the if they opt into that promotion to try to convert prospects in the system to becoming members. We do look at certain, events. So certainly we look at. New Year's resolutions, New [00:28:00] Year to you.[00:28:01] We look at spring break. We look at the beginning of the summer. We look at back to school. and then we look at the, to school is the last big hit when you begin to hit November and December, most consumers are really focused on holiday shopping, holiday parties, family get togethers, travel, Wrapping up their year end of their job if they're on a calendar or fiscal year, And then we start right over again on december 26th, and that's when people are like, okay, let's get back to the gym so we do take all of that into consideration but every month has a cycle and every quarter has a cycle and then obviously there's a cycle to the year[00:28:41] Ilyse: so there's obviously one of the biggest categories on social media is fitness. I would say there's so many fitness influencers out there these days.[00:28:52] To what extent do you share a kind of like common goal to get people to the gym? Do you then access and use [00:29:00] these social media personalities?[00:29:02] Chad: Yep. yeah, really good question. influencers in the fitness space are very important and we have worked with influencers. off and on over the past several years, we work with them today. And what we have found them to be most effective for us is around awareness building, introducing crunch to their audience.[00:29:26] we have tried to activate, and I'm using air quotes for those, listening, obviously, we've tried to activate those influencers to try to sell gym memberships. And we've not succeeded in that. I think their audiences see through that.[00:29:40] Ilyse: Hmm. Interesting.[00:29:42] Chad: And so for us, it's more about the authenticity of we want to invite the influencers into our gym.[00:29:47] We want them to get in a great workout. We want them to tell their story on that does more value for us. than them trying to sell a membership to their audience. And so we certainly work and we pay influencers [00:30:00] for some of that awareness building. But we also Work really hard to make sure that our member experience is an excellent experience for all of our members because we have influencers in our gym all the time that we may not even be aware that they're there and we want them.[00:30:18] We wanted to organically. Work its way through social media, and we've actually had some great success with that. And so the success comes from our fantastic operators on running a great gym on the influencers who are already members are just telling the crunch story for us. They're evangelists on. You really can't put a price on that.[00:30:41][00:30:41] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:30:46] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber.[00:30:49] The current team includes cat fussy and Sydney Cairns. [00:30:53] Damian: remember I'm[00:30:55] Ilyse: and I'm[00:30:56] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe [00:31:00] and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Intuit's Dave Raggio shares why SMB MediaLabs doesn't own inventory, how it prioritizes privacy for its customers, and the reason consumer and CPG brands are turning to Intuit's data.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: and I'm Ilyse Liffreing[00:00:02] Damian: and welcome to this edition of the current podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to bring Dave Raggio to the podcast. Dave is the vice president of S& B Media Labs, a B2B media network owned by Intuit, which is of course known for business products like TurboTax, QuickBooks, Credit Karma, and MailChimp.[00:00:22] Damian: Now Dave developed the idea of SMB Media Lab, which leans on the first party data from the millions of people who use QuickBooks, and it provides small businesses with the intelligence they need to reach their customers across channels like audio and CTV.[00:00:38] Ilyse: We start out by asking Dave about the origins of S& D Media Labs.[00:00:42] : It really came from honestly my personal frustration, in trying to reach SMBs for my, what I'm calling my day job. So, I was hired four years ago, at Intuit to lead QuickBooks acquisition marketing. And I actually still hold that position today. Um, my entire career has [00:01:00] been consumer brand. So I was with North Face before this.[00:01:02] Um, spent a lot of time agency side, working on a variety of clients across CPG and e comm retail. And when I got to, into it, um, I tried to essentially apply the same data sources and tactics that worked very well for me in the, in the consumer world. And it was met very quickly with the reality that SMB data is very hard to find, and when you do find it, the accuracy is just not great.[00:01:28] So, you know, I have a friend, um, that works in the agency that me that at the top you have enterprise level data, which is pretty high quality at the bottom. You have your consumer data, which is abundant and high quality, but between there's a big void and that's pretty much where all S and B data lives.[00:01:49] Um, so it started off. Kind of, it's just a joke internally that I really wish there was a company like QuickBooks that I could partner with and [00:02:00] buy media through that would allow me to find not only the scale of audiences that Intuit has, but also the depth of knowledge about how those, how those businesses are operated and run.[00:02:10] And then that joke kind of became a realization that it is a need for other advertisers that Intuit could very much fill and very uniquely fill as well. Just considering kind of. The breadth and depth of information that we have, um, on, on our small business owners. Um, so that was the start of it. Um, but of course, you know, we wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that was beneficial to our customers, um, and done in a privacy safe way.[00:02:38] So that was kind of the start of the journey was just the realization that we had something that advertisers would be interested in, but we also wanted to make sure that it was something that benefited our customers as well.[00:02:47] Damian: That void that you talk about in the middle between enterprise level data and consumer data is quite surprising, isn't it? That there wasn't anything there for those small businesses. I know that 99 percent of all businesses are [00:03:00] SMBs. So that's a huge, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a huge amount of, uh, data that's not being used.[00:03:09] So was it a surprising moment when, when, when you go, when you saw that and you thought, Oh, this is an opportunity.[00:03:15] Dave: Yeah, I, you know, there are small pockets of data where you can get very narrow in, it's just not scalable. So that was the sort of challenge. So you can go to a lot of individual professional sites. But the reality is the world of media is not built around the business that you run, it's built around you as a person.[00:03:31] So stitching those two parameters together, because, you know, as QuickBooks growth, We're looking for specific types of business problems. And, you know, a lot of these small business owners are not active on professional networks. Um, if they have profiles there, they're not looking at them on a regular basis or updating them.[00:03:51] Um, so they, they kind of become. In the shadows, like the S and B part of the data and the targeting capabilities and the need state from the business that they [00:04:00] run sits behind their sort of consumer profiles. So I think it was a surprise when I first joined, but. Logically, after a little while, I was like, okay, that makes sense of why we're not able to find the business traits and qualities that we are able to.[00:04:18] Damian: Yeah, that makes sense. The[00:04:20] Ilyse: Now, how would you go about like describing the value of these small businesses and the data that their advertisers are trying to use to reach this audience?[00:04:31] Dave: Yeah, um, so great question. And there's, there's a couple of different layers of sort of knowledge that we have on our, on our customer base, and we're not unlocking all of those just yet. So we want to, again, going back to the want to do what's right by our customers, we want to make sure that. All the information that we're collecting is something that they would expect us to collect, that they have full control over their ability to participate in this, and that we're only partnering with advertisers that, um, you know, have the best [00:05:00] intent for, for our customers.[00:05:02] With that, uh, we are layering on top of ad buys, data that seems to already exist in the market, but is much more accurate. So that was one of the sort of uphill battles that we've had in the early stages of this. So things like industry, age, revenue, employee count, these are things that on the surface appear to exist in other third party data sources, but You know, again, being on the other side of the buying of this one, I see how wildly off some of those data sources can be and the assumptions that they have about a small business.[00:05:34] So what we're adding on to that is just a very, very, um, deterministic one to one knowledge and accuracy that didn't exist. So we eliminate a lot of waste that comes with using some of the other data providers or even just kind of doing broad market advertising. So that's kind of the main value prop.[00:05:54] That said, we are working with our legal and privacy team. And our [00:06:00] executive sponsor is actually the head of privacy. So that should tell everyone a little bit about how serious we're taking this. But we're also thinking about with our customers, what value can we add to them if we continue to go into what we're calling transactional type data, if we're able to go the next step deeper.[00:06:16] And the reason for that is every business. on the surface may look the same in an industry size employee count, but how they run their business could be very different. So if you're a construction company, that's in the same region as another construction company, roughly same revenue, roughly same employee count doesn't mean that you invest completely different in marketing.[00:06:37] And you may be, Think about your supply chain very differently. What that allows us to do is actually find need states for our customers and be able to pair them with the advertisers that might be able to serve, um, solutions for them in those needs states. And so that's kind of the next wave that we're working on.[00:06:52] It's something that we haven't done yet, but we're hoping to unlock for our advertisers.[00:06:57] Ilyse: Yeah, that's definitely a good example. [00:07:00] Um, I feel like, In a, such a new kind of company like this, and I know you refer to you guys as like a retail media network, although you're not exactly a retail media, um, so it's, it's, it's definitely hard to kind of describe, I would assume, to other B2B businesses exactly what to do and how your like first party data And you essentially use QuickBooks, um, primarily, right?[00:07:27] Um, how they can use that data to their advantage. Is there, like, another example that you can give how, um, advertiser would use your, your media network in order to, like, reach their audience? Heh[00:07:43] Dave: you mentioned that, that, you know, we've, we've been using the term retail media network, but we're, we're very much not a retail media network. So we do not have owned and operated inventory and that's by design. Um, you don't start a business because you're passionate about bookkeeping in most cases.[00:07:55] Um, so we're leaning into as a company, AI and, and, [00:08:00] um, automation to make sure that we're trying to reduce the amount of time that That a customer has to spend in our platforms in order to, um, to get their work done. So throwing ads in there will slow that down. It's not something that, you know, someone that's already paying for subscription would, would want to have that said, there are potentially ways that we've been looking at that. Provide additional value to that. That said by not having owned and operated, I think that we accidentally fell into what I'm calling kind of the next wave of retail media network. So we are more of an audience network that can be layered on to any part of your ad buy that's programmatic. So we have partnerships with the trade desk, with physio, with DV360, with meta, and we We are agnostic to inventory source.[00:08:44] We just allow the advertiser, whatever their KPIs are across the board to just get more efficient and more focused on just the right people. And that's been, um, again, slightly different than what most retail media networks are going, but attending a bunch of [00:09:00] conferences, that seems to be really the hot topic of your own and operated inventory is great.[00:09:04] It is the last. bottom, bottom, bottom of the funnel that you're able to, um, that you're able to really leverage. We are able to address full funnel campaigns with that audience targeting.[00:09:18] Damian: That's very interesting. What kind of advertisers in this space are keen to take advantage of this opportunity to reach these millions of small businesses?[00:09:29] Dave: Yeah, it's so that's been one of the larger surprising things when we started this up. So we built this assuming insurance, banking, credit cards, those would be the The sort of the very close in some of the software SAS providers. Um, that has been very true for us that that's where we're seeing a lot of interest, but we've had a lot of consumer brands coming to us.[00:09:48] There seems to be a wave of interest in small business as a segment for a lot of advertisers. So we've had one of the largest CPG brands approach us. I worked at Method for [00:10:00] a while, so I know firsthand that shipping a bottle of hand soap is very expensive, and it's only a 3 bottle of hand soap, but it's mostly water and fragile, so you're upside down in your e comm costs.[00:10:12] So the area where e comm works really well for CPG brands is concentrates in large formats, and the normal consumer do not want that. It is very profitable to go that direction. Um, so they reached out to us, same thing with one of the largest beverage companies reached out to us cause they want to be in more restaurants, more independent restaurants than the chain restaurants.[00:10:30] So it's been a little surprising across the board of, you know, who's really approached us. Um, and, and some of these non traditional sort of B2B, as you would think about it are really the ones that have a ton of interest.[00:10:42] Ilyse: yeah I must say. It seems like B2B is on like some kind of upward trending line right now. Um, we are seeing like a, an increase across like all channels, I feel like, maybe. Like, um, maybe that's due to like, I don't know, the rise of like [00:11:00] LinkedIn or like, um, just more businesses coming forward. And being created in general, maybe the pandemic even, I don't know, it's, it's curious because I do feel like even like channels like CTV, for instance, there's a lot more like B2B kind of marketing happening.[00:11:16] Is[00:11:16] Dave: Yeah. We're seeing the same thing and we're excited that we're kind of showing up at the right time for that. You know, I think our hypothesis on that is, um, very much correct. There was a small business boom during the pandemic, but a lot of advertisers I think have, have started to kind of run out of scale and saturation that they can have amongst the sort of consumer.[00:11:36] And this is an entirely new audience with tremendous spending power that you can talk about different products that you wouldn't want to put, you know, on a Super Bowl spot. You know, the CPG brand is not going to run a large format concentrate ad in the Super Bowl, but there's now a new path and a new audience that is kind of untapped.[00:11:54] And we're also seeing that also in the marketing space. So a lot of the major social networks and ad providers. [00:12:00] Their next target is all the S and B's because they've got so much share of wallet amongst the enterprise level brands that their, their next growth area is going to have to come from the long tail of S and B's.[00:12:10] Um, so we're happy because we truly feel like we are the most accurate and best way to reach those S and B's. Um, so we're, we're hoping that, that, you know, everything kind of comes together.[00:12:20] Damian: Is there a, is there some kind of nuance in terms of the channels that advertisers trying to reach businesses use versus, you know, more traditional, you might say consumer channels? I mean, they're obviously consumers. are also business owners and business owners are consumers. But is there a different sort of way that you're thinking or the advertisers are thinking about leveraging, um, the data that you're providing?[00:12:48] Dave: We've not seen that. So kind of going back to the challenge that brought this whole thing to life is that The the line between them as a small business owner and them is just a person [00:13:00] is almost indistinguishable between the two of those. So The nice thing is because it's programmatic wherever they happen to be We're able to find them and able to serve them relevant advertising at that point I think that Um, it really the, the majority of channel selection will come down to the objective of the campaign.[00:13:22] So we had a major global logistics company that was very focused on brand advertising and we were running them on connected TV with Vizio. We were running them on some digital video formats. We had another SaaS provider that was very focused on cost per leads. And we. Much heavier on the social and programmatic, uh, display side of things.[00:13:41] So it's really more of what's the objective dictates kind of the channel mix itself. But, um, in terms of are there subtle nuances or specific places we go? Not really. We kind of just follow, follow the sort of, um, friends that we're seeing with the, with those small business [00:14:00] owners.[00:14:00] Damian: Totally makes sense.[00:14:01] Ilyse: Now, you've described SMB MediaLabs as the next wave of retail networks, which is very interesting. I like that kind of quote right there. Um, you've also said it's like a more open network than some others. Can you describe why that is?[00:14:20] Dave: Yeah, so I would say we're not the next wave. I think that we are ahead and riding the next wave. So I don't say that we are defining it by any means, but, um, we were open in the fact that we're not relying on our own inventory. So we can go. Pretty much anywhere. Um, and if an advertiser comes to us and they have a specific DSP that they really want to work with, we can onboard those DSPs if they're not already in our network.[00:14:44] So a big part of our, of our product is really making sure that we have the largest breadth of inventory sources and partnerships available, that we can develop campaigns in partnership with the advertiser and the agencies that actually, um, can [00:15:00] span wherever they believe that their customers are, whatever their objectives are.[00:15:03] So that's, that's the open part. Of what we're doing. Um, and because of that also, like there's just easier capabilities for them to, to measure it because they're already using a lot of the DSPs and platforms that they're, they're using for their normal campaign. So we're not any sort of walled garden that has hidden metrics behind the scene, which I know is also, you know, a challenge for a lot of retail media networks as well.[00:15:26] Ilyse: That's awesome. How do you, going about your own advertising for this network, how are you basically scaling it?[00:15:34] Dave: Getting the word out and, uh, getting people to, uh, to, to try it. So we have had, um, I think we're, we're in, in month eight now, and we've had a number of large advertisers come in the data's, the data and the audience targeting is performing extremely well, that is something that, um, was a concern of mine going in that, you know, a, is there enough people that are interested in S and B's and we already [00:16:00] talked about how that, you know, You know, has been something that we've been able to check that box and say, yes, there is a ton of interest from advertisers across the board.[00:16:07] The second one was, have I convinced myself that our audience quality is as good as it is. Um, and the data that's come in as, as shown that it's, it's performing extremely well, both on brand metrics and on cost per action. So, uh, our goal right now is to just have as many conversations and just do as many tests as possible.[00:16:26] And let the advertiser see how well it performs comparatively to other things.[00:16:31] Damian: I guess the next question would be how well does it perform? You know, what kind of data insights are you getting back to provide to advertisers?[00:16:39] Dave: Yeah, so, uh, we are seeing so we've done some disco studies on brand ones, and we're seeing on average 30 to 40 percent increase in brand metrics, which is huge. That was not that's actually outside of what we anticipated and hoped for on that one. And I think probably the big one was when we've run some cost per lead campaigns for SAS [00:17:00] cloud service.[00:17:01] We cut their CPLs by 75%. So just eliminating the inaccuracy and focusing your spin on deterministic direct connections with those advertisers or with those, with those customers as has worked extremely well.[00:17:18] Damian: Yeah, that's a high fidelity audience. I, I, I like that phrase.[00:17:23] Damian: I guess we have to have a question about ai, right? We have to talk about ai.[00:17:44] Um, you know. In April, Intuit introduced an AI assistant to its core product. Products, I should say, um, in TurboTax. It's going to shorten the time to file taxes, credit karma, users [00:18:00] get personalized financial information advice, I should say, and users can generate marketing content in MailChimp. You know, how are you and SMB Media Labs using AI?[00:18:09] Yeah,[00:18:13] Dave: we built, we are a managed service. So we are doing the buys and executing for the time being. That is something that is very difficult to scale because for us it is kind of core to Google. Make sure that the, that the media that we're buying, not only is targeted, but it's performing.[00:18:29] So there's a lot of optimizations that we want to be able to make recommendations on and act on. Uh, it's hard to do that. You know, our goal is to have hundreds of advertisers. You can't optimize hundreds of advertisers. So there are tools that we are bringing on board that actually use AI to understand how the various campaigns are performing, are able to serve up some sort of triggered recommendations based off of that.[00:18:51] Um, and that allows our team to scale and really make sure that everything that we're doing is. hitting the benchmarks and exceeding the benchmarks that we want them to do [00:19:00] across all of our advertisers.[00:22:09] Damian: One question I guess from that is, you know, the actual marketing of the SMB, uh, the actual marketing of SMB MediaLabs, how do you think about that?[00:22:21] Dave: Uh, well, the marketing of SMB Media Labs is a lot of. Conversations like this. Um, so I'm a little bit on a podcast tour. I am, I'm going to be at Cannes. So we do have a space in the media link to a can where we're going to be having a number of meetings, speaking engagements. Um, it's, it is different enough that it does require a little bit of explanation and, you know, in full transparency, there's an added hurdle that as it stands now, we are a managed service.[00:22:45] So, um, it is. It adds complexity to what a traditional we are not doing the model where we just park our data and anyone can go and pull it like through a marketplace. We still have to control. And that's that's because we want to have the highest bar possible for how we [00:23:00] control our data. So it just takes more conversations.[00:23:03] But, uh, You know, we are doing some programmatic media buying and we're doing some digital out of home in the elevators of a lot of the major agencies in New York City. So we're, we're trying to really focus in on, on both the agencies and the advertisers that would be interested in something like this.[00:23:19] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:23:24] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:23:30] Damian: And[00:23:30] remember I'm Damian.[00:23:32] Ilyse: I'm Elise.[00:23:33] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:23:38] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Las Vegas Raiders' SVP of Marketing Kristen Banks joins The Current Podcast to discuss the importance of balancing old and new fan bases alike, and not just in Las Vegas. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:01] Illyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering and [00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current [00:00:04] Illyse: This week, [00:00:05] we're delighted to talk with Kristen Banks, the SVP of Marketing for the Las Vegas Raiders, formerly known as the Oakland Raiders, and for a while the Los Angeles Raiders from 1982 to 94, [00:00:18] Damian: but since 2020, the Raiders have made their home in Las Vegas, and this year the Raiders hosted the Super Bowl at Allegiant Stadium. [00:00:26] That's the first time in NFL history that a Super Bowl was played in the state of Nevada. [00:00:31] Illyse: In fact, the match was the most streamed in history by a record setting audience. [00:00:37] Damian: Now, although the Raiders weren't playing in the match, the event marked a watershed moment for the NFL, for Las Vegas, and the game in general. [00:00:45] We started by asking Kristen what all that attention meant to the Raiders. [00:00:51] Kristen: it's incredible. Uh, you know, coming into working for a brand that's been around 60 years. So the Raiders organization is [00:01:00] been, you know, around since 1960 and they've never hosted a Super Bowl. So for the first time, you know, coming to a new stadium being built in Las Vegas in 2020, not having it open for the first two years that the stadium was in full operations because of the pandemic, And then fast forward to this year hosting the Super Bowl on a wide, really global stage. [00:01:26] was incredible. It was incredible for the brand. It was incredible for the city of Las Vegas. And I think it really represents a new chapter in sport and what's happening in this city. [00:01:40] Illyse: And you know, also thanks to streaming and probably also Taylor Swift a little bit, let's be honest, we're seeing new fans come to the NFL. [00:01:49] Kristen: What I would say is again, drafting back to the pandemic is that there's, you know, there was already a change in consumer behavior and how consumers were [00:02:00] absorbing and watching content. Certainly with the pandemic that increased that aptitude. And so you saw this incredible spike in how people are consuming content, certainly migrating away from being cord cutters or potentially Cord nevers who had a cable package and moving into streaming services. [00:02:20] Certainly you see that even more so with the younger population and Gen Z. It's about simply. Being available to every audience type that's out there, and that could be on their mobile phone, on their tablet, when they're watching the game, still on regular television, but going to social media platforms or YouTube to consume additional content that only enhances the experience. [00:02:46] Damian: That's interesting. One of the things that you said to me, Kristen, was about that streaming and second screen experiences that, in effect, there's a sort of virtual community of fans who are sharing content as the action is happening and unfolding. [00:03:00] How do you think about that and leverage that as a marketer? [00:03:02] Because that seems like a pretty exciting real time opportunity. [00:03:06] Kristen: It's such a unique world, right? Particularly for younger audiences, we'll say, under the age of 25, if they haven't documented it, then it's almost like it didn't happen. So, as a brand and as a marketer, you have to think about when someone's attending a game, when they're watching it at home, how are they engaging with the experience? [00:03:30] And how are you giving them? A opportunity to tell their story and what it means to engage and experience that activity with the brand. [00:03:40] , I'm quite new to the Raiders organization. I joined, um, six months ago, right at the start of the 2023 season. the height of Super Bowl. And so my team is deep in the throes of the strategy and planning of how do we build audiences and how do we ultimately create customer journeys long [00:04:00] term. [00:04:00] When you think about the avidity scale of the very core passionate fan who maybe is a season ticket member, buys merchandise can't get enough of the Raiders podcast that type of fan. is very different than a very casual fan so for a very casual fan, I'm not going to immediately try to sell them on a season ticket member because they're likely not at that stage of ready to make that commitment financially, ready to make that time commitment. [00:04:31] So how do I get them to watch a piece of content? So it's really about building out each person individually and saying, okay, this subset of fans represent this group and follow this typical pathway. [00:04:45] And these types of fans that are much more avid may follow a very different pathway. And this is what this looks like. [00:04:51] Damian: I'm very curious on the, you know, when you mentioned the coach and the teams and all that dynamic that goes on, how much access do you and [00:05:00] your marketing team have to that? How do you, how does that kind of infuse what you have to do on the, on the executive front? [00:05:06] Kristen: From week to week, you know, win or loss, you know, there's this constant narrative that's playing out on a real time stage and on social media and live on broadcast. And so then you have to say, okay, how do we ultimately take that draft quickly? If maybe a player made a stunning catch, or had a, you know, a fumble, or did something on the field that was really extraordinary, how do we then, you know, how do we dovetail off of that? [00:05:39] How do we create content? Taking those things that are really quick hits and ultimately doing a quick turn to be relevant and, you know, in that social media moment of continuing to capture that interest and intent. [00:05:55] Damian: That's really interesting. And the way that advertising now is deployed in a much more agile [00:06:00] way makes that all the more possible, I assume. [00:06:03] Kristen: Right. I would say, there's challenges with that. Yes, for sure. It's. It's easier to do nowadays. I mean, certainly you've got social media, you've got digital content. It's easy to push something out, but you also have the challenge of, as you think about customization and personalization and audience segmentation, what does that look like, right? [00:06:24] Is it five different messages? Is it three different messages? Is it one different message, but a different channel? So, you know, Even still, when you're trying to move as quickly so that you're still relevant, and it's happening, that lightning in that moment, you have to also be able to take a pause, say, what's the strategic approach here, and is this reflective of the right audience, and where do we ultimately push this to make it relevant? [00:06:52] Illyse: I feel like the NFL and sports leagues overall, There's a lot of, like storylines that you can actually, draw from, and, like, [00:07:00] personalities. , everybody has their favorite player their favorite moment in time that that player, really succeeded. [00:07:08] How do you then use these storylines to, like, infuse your marketing content as you think about, keeping things relevant and authentic? [00:07:17] Kristen: My background is sports and entertainment, which has really what I'd like to say is baked in stories and they're happening on a daily basis, right? I think it's why when we then partner with brands or we bring in partnerships and we say, okay, brand X, Y, Z, who maybe doesn't have some of those built in storylines to play from, how do they make what they're doing, you know, speak to the fan base [00:07:43] Illyse: do you think that even work with brands that don't have an obvious affinity with a sports team? Like how do you create then like extensions of the story? [00:07:54] Kristen: I'll pick on maybe a little bit of finance and insurance because maybe they're not as sexy, [00:08:00] but, in naturally partnering with a brand or a sports property helps allow that to happen. And then it creates that opportunity to say, Okay, well, that finance or that insurance brand, you know what, when there's a setback, oh, that may relate to somebody's personal life in how they're investing, right? [00:08:20] And that's easier for brands to attach to versus having to try to create something from scratch. one of the interesting narratives that came out of 2023 season was certainly with our Interim head coach, who's now the head coach, Antonio Pierce. [00:08:44] And he's an incredible figure and certainly quite the motivator and just, gives these incredible speeches and really. Kind of these amazing lines that just play really well into marketing. Um, and it was, okay, how do [00:09:00] we create a whole blackout kind of experience? It was clear they weren't going to be making the playoffs, but how do we still make it impactful to the fans that they want to show up, that they want to watch, so if you take that story of, okay, everybody's going to dress in all black in the way that he does. [00:09:17] Show up and represent, which is usually kind of one of his sayings and to see that come to life, to see many of the fans dressed in all black at the game, to see messages of encouragement posted on social media. And then, which it was incredible to see him walk off the field and have people chanting. [00:09:39] For the coach, that's that's quite unheard of. So that was a really cool. Um, it was a really cool moment to see and witness and from a marketing side, help create that, [00:09:52] Damian: yeah, so the executive side of the Las Vegas Raiders, you've got a very powerful story there too. And I know that it's a team [00:10:00] of firsts with the first female black president of an NFL team and more. [00:10:05] I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, you know, that side of the story. [00:10:09] Kristen: I think, you know, the Raiders has a really an illustrious history. , you have, you know, the first black head coach. You had the very first female president in the NFL. They all came from the Raiders. Now you have the very first female black, uh, president of the Raiders. And so, you know, it's an organization that's been in firsts. [00:10:33] Over the past 60 years, and so it's incredible to say that, you know, whether it was, , Mark Davis, our owner of the Raiders, or his father, Al Davis, they constantly said it was really always about just finding the right person for the role and really just that. And not, and diversity and inclusion becomes just part of that because you want to make sure that you're representing [00:11:00] the audience in the right way.[00:11:02] Kristen: And to be at the forefront of doing that is to make sure that in the back office, and on the field, and in the coaches and staff all reflect that representation as well. And so I think that's just a fabric of the Raiders DNA that's always been present. But To be here now, to be part of the leadership team, to have, a female president who's African American, to be a part of that executive group as myself being a female and being in sports, it's really trailblazing and it's an exciting, uh, time for sure [00:11:37] Illyse: Do you believe that then has an effect on the marketing? I know, there are obviously a ton of female, NFL fans out there and Raiders fans, I'm sure. And, I feel like. Often, though, football is more marketed to men. Do you feel that having more women in those, [00:12:00] power roles really speaks to the women that are fans? [00:12:04] Kristen: Yeah, I think it has to. I think it's a natural influence and that, you know, whether it's women, whether it's other ethnicities, whether it's different backgrounds, different cultures, all of that is really important because if you think about just, right, I'll just take Las Vegas because that's obviously where the Raiders, our home base is now. [00:12:28] We certainly reach a lot of other markets and audiences, but I'll talk about Las Vegas, which is. You know, naturally, just about 50 50 split in between men and women. 28 percent of the audience in Las Vegas is Hispanic. 11 percent is, is Asian Pacific Islander. Las Vegas is called the Ninth Island for a reason, a lot of Hawaiian transplants. [00:12:53] And also 10 percent is African American. So, you look at that really [00:13:00] diverse fabric of people in Las Vegas who could potentially be fans of the Raiders, and who ultimately we want to ingrain so that they feel the Raiders are their hometown team. The employee base should reflect that and I would say for sure, my background, my experience, and even my team around me, should reflect the diversity and diverse opinions of those communities for sure. [00:13:29] Illyse: One of the most interesting facts about the Las Vegas Raiders is that you're a legacy brand, but you're now in a new location how do you ensure that you're engaging those fanbases while reaching new fans? [00:13:45] Kristen: I think it's making sure that nothing that you're doing is going to, Be damaging to the core or feel not authentic. We certainly have still quite a fan base in Los [00:14:00] Angeles and Oakland [00:14:00] but then to say, okay, now we need to bring in. New fans, completely different that are not part of those generations that are introduced to the team because now we're here in Las Vegas that has never had an NFL team before that honestly never had any professional sports team up until the last. Five, 10 years, that would have been completely frowned upon in what was formerly called Sin City. [00:14:28] You never want to upset the core. But you want to make sure that you're doing something that still pushes the envelope a little bit so that you're constantly growing and adapting. [00:14:38] Illyse: And, you know, I'm curious about this too because, you know, we're living in like a digital world now. Anybody can go on and stream like a Raiders game, no matter where they are. With fan bases, especially across cities, across states, does location matter as much these days to be a fan of a particular NFL team? [00:14:59] Kristen: You know, [00:15:00] I think, think it depends. I think it depends on who you ask, and I think it depends on what type of fan and what avidity scale. And the reason I say that is, is I'll say, you know, the Raiders, we are very, proud of the fact that we have a season ticket member. In every state in some 15 countries, um, that are, that grace our stadium. [00:15:23] I mean, that's a little bit of, you know, a little panache to say that, but on top of it, you know, how fans have access, you know. Can look completely different to I mean, certainly your bread and butter are the people coming in the stadium, but the bigger appeal, the bigger growth potential are those fans watching at home. [00:15:44] And what's that experience? And to your point, at least that could be done really anywhere, right? And then to what they have access to. Um, some of that, you know, depends on live broadcast rights and where, games are aired. [00:16:00] But there's also an incredible amount of content, and for anybody under the age of 20, getting them to watch a full game sometimes is a challenge anyway, so they're going on TikTok and watching some highlights. [00:16:12] So, those really casual fans, keeping them engaged, which can be at home, on the go, in a different city, in a different country, is certainly relative and important, too, to the Raiders overall growth. [00:16:28] Damian: So, Kristen, you talked, you mentioned that Vegas is pretty new to sports, but I do know that, you know, your background, which is very interesting. You're a lead marketer for the UFC, which was one of the original sports franchises in Vegas, along with boxing. I wonder about you. [00:16:47] You know, um, learned from that experience and you, you were in, the midst of, this in, as, as the city has kind of evolved into this sports center in a way. It [00:16:56] Kristen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I [00:17:00] moved to Las Vegas back in 2015. was with the UFC for eight years there, formerly worked in entertainment for NBCUniversal in Orlando. so I'll say I've always been, had a background of cast of characters and rich stories to play with. But on that end, you know, when we moved back in 2015, Very different landscape. [00:17:22] One, there was no stadiums. and there certainly was no talk of baseball, basketball, or really any other national sport. and so UFC had planted a flag many years ago as already being a boxing town where you'd have, you know, big events. [00:17:40] But what I will say is, is that is good timing of having that past experience because you're trailblazing. You're saying, okay. How do we set a flag here? How do we do this? How do we make this work? How do we get fans engaged locally? To then parlay that into what I'm [00:18:00] doing now, which is working for the NFL and working for, a team locally that has such an incredible, brand recognition, brand storyline. [00:18:12] And building from that is to say, okay, well, I can take some of what I've learned from UFC trailblaze and say, how do we make that cool and relevant, to new fans here in Las Vegas? [00:18:25] Illyse: Speaking of Vegas how is the Raiders , leaning into sports betting in any way? [00:18:30] Kristen: In Las Vegas, because of naturally the betting and the gambling and maybe it feeling like, Oh, this is, this is too taboo for a sports team to come to Las Vegas. but today, you know, some of our partners are sports betting partners. Um, we have MGM bet, who's a corporate sponsor. We have DraftKings, and there are league partnerships with sports betting partners. [00:18:56] Naturally, I'd say, it's really working with the [00:19:00] teams individually to say, hey, how do we make sure that we make sure that the game stays pure, that it's really just more of a fan focal point, but that those two don't intersect. [00:19:12] Illyse: Yeah, It's definitely interesting. The Raiders are kind of, I would say different from a lot of other NFL teams and I'm curious about what you would say about why that is. For instance, like the nickname, I know Raider Nation is, is really strong and the fans are . Maybe some of the most spirited in, yes, in the league, I would say. What do you think? [00:19:38] Kristen: They really represent and tap into what the Raiders brand is, which is about individuality. [00:19:46] It's about, being yourself authentically. It's about doing it in such a way that's very different, almost cosplay esque. Playing into that it's the team for maybe the [00:20:00] non sports fan, you know, and silver and black, and how cool are those colors that everybody looks good in black. So I think there's, there's just so much fun. [00:20:12] And then I think about, you know, just where the Raiders came from to, you know, our incredible history of Al Davis being the owner, and commitment to excellence, having pride and pride and poise, those things and that and that kind of ethos, plays into everything of what we do, and I think that the fans gravitate to that because it's something they can identify with. [00:20:39] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:20:41] We'll be back next week so stay tuned. [00:20:44] Illyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:51] Damian: And remember [00:20:52] Kristen: You never want to upset the core. But you want to make sure that you're doing something that still pushes the envelope a little bit so [00:21:00] that you're constantly growing and adapting. [00:21:02] Damian: I'm Damien [00:21:03] Illyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:21:04] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report,

NBCUniversal's ad president talks upfronts, strategic audiences, brand storytelling, and the Paris Olympics.Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Eileen Sliffering.[00:00:02] Damian: Welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Allison Levin, who joined NBCUniversal as the President of Advertising and Partnerships earlier this year.[00:00:15] Damian: Allison oversees all ad sales initiatives for NBCUniversal across national and local markets, as well as for the company's Peacock streaming service, which will be the streaming home 000 hours of Olympics coverage for the first time.[00:00:30] Ilyse: It's no doubt going to be a summer of sport for the legacy broadcaster which owns the media rights to the Olympics through 2032 and for the first time the slots on Peacock are open to programmatic buyers.[00:00:44] Damian: that's not all. Just this week, NBCUniversal returned to Radio City Music Hall in New York City for its annual Upfront presentation, celebrating the company's diverse slate of programming. We started by asking Alison about this year's [00:01:00] event.[00:01:00] Alison: Yeah, I mean, it's, this is such a, an incredible busy time of year for all of us. And it really is such a great, like forcing function to take a step back and to have these conversations with clients, both agencies and our brand partners about. What it is that they're excited for the next 12 months.[00:01:17] How do we want to partner together? And what does the future hold, right? there's so many conversations that are in quarter often, but this is the opportunity to really look ahead and talk about the future of our work together. and so I would say from the conversations we've been having, and we've been having, hundreds of conversations across clients and agencies, we're really hearing like.[00:01:36] Two big themes that are coming out. And the first is about strategic audiences. So for those of us that have been in, digital for a long time, this isn't a surprise that, you know, buying off of a more precise audience, like someone who's in market for a car or household income or leveraging. A client's first party data is just a more effective way to place [00:02:00] media than, buying adults 18 to 49.[00:02:03] Like someone had said to me once that adults 18 to 49 is a family reunion. It's not a buying And it's it stuck with me ever, since. And, We are hearing loud and clear from clients that they are really excited to move into more precise audiences, not just in streaming and across digital, but really looking at it on the linear side too, and having one buying tactic across the full portfolio.[00:02:27] And, when you think about Consumers like at the end of the day, we're all consumers. We're all viewers and viewers have a relationship with IP, not delivery mechanism, right? And so as marketers we're hearing from marketers, they want to have that same execution strategy and they really want to find their target audience.[00:02:46] Wherever they may be across a full portfolio in a more precise way. So I would say that's one key theme we're hearing a lot about. and of course that has great implications on programmatic. it has implications on our one [00:03:00] platform, total audience product, Opta, and how we, actually help leverage data to find our audience across our full portfolio. And then. Another really interesting conversation that's been coming up quite a bit. And we just were in a client meeting this morning where this was like front and center, but was how can we partner with our brands to tell stories within our stories? Right? Like, and if you just take a step back, like storytelling is, the fundamental part.[00:03:30] Of our foundation. It's how we have learned as human beings, how we've grown. It's our number one form of entertainment is being entertained by stories. And I include sports in that. Like there is a beginning, middle end of sports. And so as we talk to marketers, they really want to And work together to stand out, to tell stories within our stories.[00:03:50] Like even thinking about Jake from safe farm, that's a story, right? Like these brand, champions are storytellers too. So I'd say the combination of what we're hearing a lot in market is [00:04:00] strategic audiences. So moving to more precise audiences across linear and streaming, and then going deeper and big content moments, whether that be sports or Bravo or big live events, like Thanksgiving day parade and more.[00:04:15] Damian: That was really interesting. So it's actually getting quite granular and clients have to pay attention to what's actually happening in the programming. I'm[00:04:26] Alison: I mean, like that's really how these moments stand out is like taking IP together and helping infuse a brand into the IP.[00:04:36] Damian: going to switch a little bit, but related, but obviously it's going to be a big summer for NBCUniversal with the Paris Olympics, which, you have the media rights to in the US. And I've been hearing that you've been setting up major events like the opening ceremony, with the Paris Olympics.[00:04:51] record revenue. Maybe this is an obvious question, but why is this inventory so enticing for [00:05:00] advertisers?[00:05:01] Alison: Yeah. I'm four months into my time at NBCU and, just the, value and interest in this asset is even Stronger than I imagined truly. And I think, when you think about it, it makes complete sense of why this is so interesting for brands and so exciting for consumers.[00:05:18] But like, I think from a brand perspective, just even thinking about the state of mind that people are in when they're watching this, There, especially right now, in times when people are divided, like opportunities and places and content that bring people together that are really moments of joy and happiness and suspense.[00:05:38] so the mindset that you are reaching people in, in that moment is really just, So valuable from a marketer perspective. and then I'd say the second is just reach, like how much reach the Olympics actually drives the share of attention it drives. So from a marketer perspective, like you find this audience in this really engaged mindset in [00:06:00] moments of happiness and togetherness, we're all rooting for team USA.[00:06:04] And then it also has such incredible reach and share. Of attention during this timeframe, where everyone's talking about it, everyone's watching it. So what an opportunity from a marketer perspective to really break through. and then you add to that, like the consumer experience too. So thinking about Peacock and all we're doing on the Peacock side, on the Olympics that we're going to have thousands of hours of content.[00:06:27] All of the different games, like never before, different consumer experiences as well. And so that, that combination is just so powerful and we'reseeing such excitement from the market to surround the games and be in the games.[00:06:41] Damian: one of the great things about the Olympics is there's so many sports on offering it. people have so many different interests. And so you can go from surfing to track and field to soccer. So it's really an amazing opportunity.[00:06:54] Wanted to just also touch upon Talk about the fact that for the first time you're going [00:07:00] programmatic on your streaming service in terms of selling the inventory around the Olympics. Why is that so significant?[00:07:10] Alison: I mean, from our perspective, we believe deeply in the power of programmatic and strategic audience buying. and for brands programmatic access really democratizes access to these incredible events where Olympics is one of them, like just even taking a step back, our entire live sports inventory from the NFL to big 10 and more now programmatically Transacted and with that, the number of advertisers in 2023 actually grew 87 percent year over year and the sports revenue doubled, right?[00:07:45] So there's just incredible momentum on the number of advertisers that have access to these huge moments. Like they're huge from a reach perspective. They're huge from an attention perspective. And now we're adding Olympics to that. And so when you think about. What is the [00:08:00] television of today? what is the opportunity for today?[00:08:02] It's precise audiences. Bought in real time and measurable and the ability to optimize. Like now you can do that with Olympics and with all of live sports across Peacock, like it is amazing how much this really changed in the last few years. And so we're so excited to truly. Bring this opportunity to advertisers that historically have not been able to participate.[00:08:25] Um,[00:08:26] And we're just so excited to, to see, all the momentum and get some learnings from it as well.[00:08:32] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, we, always write about how, like, CTV, but now especially like live sports is like democratizing TV, as you say, when it comes to live sports and perhaps especially like now Olympics, are you seeing certain advertisers more interested or is interest really like spanning across sectors at this point?[00:08:54] Damian: point?[00:08:55] Alison: across. Sectors because, and I think the Olympics is a really interesting example because the point [00:09:00] that you made before, there's so many different sports to, so you might be really interested in, swimming or as a brand or rock climbing, you can be specialized, but really from a, taking a step back from a sports perspective, like it drives incredible reach.[00:09:17] And fandom, it's one of the greatest stories told, right? And there's such anticipation as you watch it and suspense. And so that's something that all brands of all different categories really have been interested in, and we've seen just an incredible momentum. And then from the consumer side, it's been tremendous, the ratings.[00:09:38] And I think one of the, the thoughts when streaming came out and we started to put live sports on Peacock was that would cannibalize ratings on linear, but we've not seen that come to life. Like in last year's rating on sports, actually on linear grew and streaming grew. So streaming is just bringing in a whole new audience of viewers that we weren't, that we weren't accessing before.[00:09:59] and so [00:10:00] it's such an opportunity from a consumer perspective. We're creating more ways for them to watch in different ways, but it's also creating and opening up a new door to advertisers that maybe have not been able to access the properties before.[00:10:13] Ilyse: It definitely seems like it's just Changing overall, evolving rather, including as what's happening with this week with upfronts. Really programmatic buys can happen at any time now and that's like altering the traditional upfront marketplace in a sense. Are you seeing this, are the upfronts basically shifting to that always on marketplace?[00:10:38] Alison: What we're seeing on our end is that there really is a finite amount of truly premium professionally produced content. and that is across the board in linear, but also in streaming. And so when you pair that with wanting to find strategic, more precise audiences, or you have a big sale coming up [00:11:00] on, weekend and you want to heavy up during that timeframe, like Locking in those audiences and reserving them is still incredibly important.[00:11:08] And so the role of the upfront and the fact that the upfront is a futures market and you lock in the inventory ahead of time is still. very important. And we're continuing to see that this year and for next year's upfront. But I think the ways that you want to place that upfront, the ways that you wantto say, I'm going to spend this amount and I want it for this audience, but what is the actual tool that you might use to run your campaign?[00:11:31] I think has changed. So if you want to run it as a PG deal through a DSP or PMP deal, that's certainly something that's. That brands have been interested in, and there's a lot of benefits to that too. So I think both things are happening where the upfront is still an important process, reserving inventory is still important, but the, underlying, tools you use to place that upfront, I think have been changing.[00:11:55] Ilyse: Now, when you first announced your Olympic programmatic effort [00:12:00] a few months ago, you stated, and I thought this was very interesting, we're taking back ownership of performance. We drive performance just as well, if not better, than your Metas and your Googles. Can you go into how investing with NBCU drives this performance for marketers?[00:12:17] Alison: Yeah, the team probably at NBCU is like, maybe you might be sick of me hearing, getting on my soapbox about this, but I just think the idea that there is, a media. Activation type called performance media drives me a little bit bonkers because it, it leads people to believe that the rest of it doesn't perform.[00:12:34] and someone had told me the other day, and I thought this was so interesting that I want, they, they said, I think that television advertising has a Branding problem, ironically. And I'm like, I actually think it does too. when you take a step back and you think about what drives performance for advertisers, what moves products off the shelf, what gets people into a dealership, what drives people to studios, it's massive [00:13:00] reach getting as many people as possible.[00:13:02] It's finding the right audience, leveraging first party data, connecting to third party data. It's tools that help you optimize to get smarter and smarter as you go. And then it's real time attribution. And when you take a step back, NBCU reaches 90 percent of us households in a given month.[00:13:22] We have massive reach. We deeply know who our consumers are. We have first party data on over 90 million households. We partner with ad tech to help with real time optimization. And we're getting smarter and going deeper on real time attribution. And so I think to me, the real, the real difference here and the one that we're really excited to work through with our clients is getting faster attribution and measurement in their hands so that they can understand performance and don't have to rely on MMM models that can take nine months to a year.[00:13:54] And it's not actually that the performance is any less than these other players. [00:14:00] It's the perception of the research and the attribution studies that they don't have as quickly as possible. Like we were just in this. Client meeting and she was telling us like all of these social platforms are all claiming incrementality on all this and yet They're not even selling as much as in aggregate They're all saying they're getting credit for right like there needs to be a reassessment of what does attribution?[00:14:23] actually mean how do you look at it holistically? And I think there's, leveraging NBCU's portfolio and understanding the power of the platform as quickly as possible is goal number one for us this year.[00:14:36] Now I know you think about the user experience a lot, on Peacock, on really all of your platforms. What about the ad experience?[00:14:48] Damian: TV[00:14:48] Ilyse: to me is, it seems to be just getting more and more personalized. Why do you think this is important to viewers? Peace.[00:14:56] Alison: Yeah, I personalization makes a better, experience for [00:15:00] consumers and it makes a better experience for brands, right? It drives performance for brands. And, I do think this is such an important element. If you think about the calculation of performance and what drives performance for an advertiser, how a consumer sees that ad, what is their mindset at, and what is the experience around seeing that ad is so So critical and I think sometimes underappreciated, for peacock, we take this so seriously.[00:15:27] Our ad load is the lowest, one of the lowest, if not the lowest of all the premium AVADS. When you are a buyer, you own the pod from a category perspective. So if you are a financial service brand, you own that pod and there's no one else that's near you for the minutes before you Between those breaks, like that is so powerful from a brand perspective and it drives results with the consumers they're trying to reach.[00:15:53] our pause ads that we run are beautiful and done creatively and it drives incredible impact for brands [00:16:00] too. And when you add that combination of, innovative ad units, a great consumer experience, we just see time and time again that it drives results. And we hear everyone's, people tell us all the time, like they are users of.[00:16:12] Peacock, but also other streaming channels and they feel the difference like, and if you feel it as a consumer, it also means that when anadvertiser shows up, you are feeling a different way about them and their products in that moment. So we just take that so seriously. And the fact matters, Peacock was built for advertisers first.[00:16:31] We didn't retrofit as in after the fact. And so it really allowed us to be really thoughtful about building both of these at the same exact time versus figuring one out and then trying to get the other one shoved in there after the fact.[00:16:44] Damian: I read that local markets have a really significant influence on audiences and that national brands can connect with audiences more effectively when they speak with a local voice. And I know that your remit is across national and local. as you oversee that, what's your observation, on that [00:17:00] point?[00:17:01] Alison: Yeah. we've been. I'd say it's really been exciting. working across the national and local teams and there's been so much momentum on the local business, around digital and our ad property called spot on. It's our offering that we have. That's basically allows you to find your audience across Peacock and other digital endpoints, in specific geos and DMAs.[00:17:25] and I think a great example of where we're going with this is the launch of spot on auto. So that product in particular actually syncs up with constellation, as a key partner there with tier three auto and let's see tier three auto in a seamless way, activate across our peacock inventory. And as you know, like there's.[00:17:46] Tremendous opportunity in that category, tremendous, growth from a digital standpoint. And so new tech products and innovations like that to go capture the tier three auto market, but also other local markets [00:18:00] has been really exciting for us. An area of opportunity. And then to your point, when you marry that with what is the, national, business doing right.[00:18:08] So the tier one and what is the impact of running tier one plus tier two auto plus tier three auto on driving people to a dealership. So we're really excited about the early findings we're seeing from spot on auto and a lot more to come there.[00:18:22] Damian: Goes back to driving performance. Thanks.[00:18:24] Alison: Exactly.[00:18:27] Ilyse: now one final question for you. As obviously we're going into this huge summer for NBCU with Olympics programmatic on Peacock. Looking into your crystal ball, what do you imagine for the future ahead of that? How can NBCU even top that?[00:18:43] Damian: didn't[00:18:44] Alison: excited for this summer and I'm so excited for Paris quite personally. Um, but I think one of the things I think that's underappreciated about NBCU, we talked about this a bit at 124, that we've been leading in television [00:19:00] and video innovation. For decades, right? The first NFL game ever aired on NBC was a hundred years ago.[00:19:07] The first viral clip ever on YouTube was SNL. The largest streaming day ever was on Peacock. And, I'm excited for us to take back that narrative a little bit in the market. We've been quietly leading an innovation for decades where you continue to do so. And we do it because brands have always been in our partners.[00:19:27] Number one for us, they're,what we think about when we wake up and we go to bed at night, like making their campaign successful. And we've been innovating to do that. And we are continuing to do that. So I just say like, just thinking about everything we've been doing on Peacock over the last, 12 months.[00:19:45] everything that we were doing on attribution and measurement, all of our work on strategic audiences and Opta, just imagine what we'll do in the next 12 months. Like we're just hitting our stride right now and there's just so much runway ahead for us. And, we've got [00:20:00] great partners that have been here testing and innovating and building alongside of us.[00:20:05] Ilyse:OUTRO[00:20:05] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:20:11] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:17] Damian: And[00:20:17] remember I'm Damian.[00:20:19] Ilyse: I'm Elise.[00:20:20] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:25] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

Hearst Newspaper's Vice President of Programmatic, Mike Irenski, joins The Current Podcast to explore the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00]Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. AndIlyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Michael Eirenski, the Vice President of Programmatic Revenue at Hearst Newspapers.Damian: Now Hearst has a legacy that goes all the way back to 1887 when William Randolph Hearst acquired the San Francisco Daily Examiner and founded the Hearst Corporation.Ilyse: Only 137 years later, the legacy of the brand continues as the publisher of 24 dailies and 52 weeklies, including papers such as the Houston Chronicle and the San Francisco Chronicle.Damian: Hearst Newspapers has a unique insight into journalism in the U. S. at a local and a national level, even as publishers are under pressure to find fresh ways to fund their newsrooms.Ilyse: We talk with Mike about the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it.Mike: Yeah, so Hearst newspapers has grown a lot. it's funny. I, most people don't know this, is actually 137 year old brand. We've been around, during the same amount of time as some of our friends, down the block or a couple but I think what's really differentiated us is, That, over the [00:02:00] years, we have thousands of employees.We have, award winning content. And, really unique our strong local presence. When people think of. being stale, and I think it's a little bit different here at Hearst Newspapers, is that we've always constantly been evolving. And we take pride in our core product. But I think what is particularly unique is that we have been actively engaging in our local communities over the past dozens of years. And, have really listened to our audiences. So some of the things that, come to light for us is that we are continuing to lean into And we've been [00:03:00] recently as of this year, expanding into, puzzles and gaming. We have, a big comics presence and own, several, large IPs, from Popeye to Betty Boop. And we've also been rethinking about the types of, long form content that we So it's been an evolution over time, but I think what we've really just, continued to lean into is, local community aspect. And we've seen the returns as a result.Ilyse: I had no idea that Hearst is in the IP game so much as it is.Mike: Oh my gosh. I, it's very funny when I first started here, the other side of the floor has a Popeye paraphernalia throughout the office. And I just thought people are really into Popeye. I didn't know that it was anything that we, But it is, one of many, which is fascinating. There's a large video game called Cuphead, which has a Netflix show that is actually something that we also own the IP for. So it's fascinating and [00:04:00] a growing part of our business.Ilyse: Ah, so interesting. Now, with so many, local publications, how does that affect Hearst Newspapers, approach to something like audience segmentation?Mike: Oh, my gosh. It's very funny because each market is completely different. Albany readers that relevant, accurate information that is happening, regardless of where they are.But something we like to say internally is, the national stories are conversations that are being had with everyone, but the local stories are conversations with your friends or your neighbor or your family. And as a result, I think that gives us some level of differentiation. I also joke around that we cover high school sports as if it's the NBA [00:05:00] finals.And while we might not say focus on the Royals, this came up recently, where I was curious in our newsrooms, are we talking about the Royals? Are we providing any content? And the newsrooms have been if the local community isn't really asking for it, that it really isn't, we'll cover it, but it's not just something that we lean into.And I think what I'm very proud of is we stay close to the zeitgeist, but we never follow the zeitgeist. We are really leaning into what our local communities want. And with those boots on the ground doing it, we have just amazing, journalists and, video content creators who are talking to the people.comes out in Ilyse: It's very much community first,Reader driven. Which I'm sure helps when it comes to advertising as well.Mike: Not only our readers react to our content, but also how they react to the adjacent advertising associated to it. And, with [00:06:00] that is something that we're constantly up leveling at the national level and talking to the big brands and agencies on, but just seeing that performance at the local level is a microcosm of the things we could do, but it's very inspiring when you're able to drive business to a small entrepreneur or local business.Damian: Mike, I feel really inspired by, local newspapers. I grew up in Britain and I remember getting the Yorkshire Evening Press. It used to be an evening paper and just that's how I got interested in journalism, just looking at all that.People are interested in what's happening, in their backyard.And at the same time, of course, you get the national stories and international stories in there too. As well as the TV listings that I was interested in. Anyway, I digress. But, that value of local journalism has been, of late, it's been under threat. It's been challenged. And local papers, we've, reported on have basically been, closing newsrooms and the like, across the United States and indeed other countries.But, how do you [00:07:00] think about that, in, in a world where people want local journalism, and how advertisers need those local audiences to advertise too? What's the inherent sort of like challenge and how do you think about that?Mike: Yes, I think about it often. I also think about, coming here is, it's very hard. I don't need to talk myself up or what we do here. but it's a very hard conversation that's being had, our industry touched upon it perfectly. There's a lot of threat and what we've, I think one of the things that makes us unique is that we do, across all of our properties and just Hearst brands, we have the reach. The reach play is not the challenge for us, but it's the ongoing, challenge that we have with advertisers who are looking not to run on it's very funny because people see the value of news, but then you'll talk to an advertiser and I've had advertisers say this to my face that, Hey, we don't run a news.I'm [00:08:00] sorry. We would love to run, but we can't. And, something as a case in point is, the recent eclipse, that, passed over the United We saw from our Eclipse content, when you think of the eclipse, the first thing I did was I went to my, local sites to see where, what time does it start here in New York?Where can I be? Where can I watch it? You can't get that everywhere. And those are the experiences that we are constantly trying to bring to advertisers is that there's a perception with news that it is not brand safe, that you do not want the right, alignment with the news.breaking news content. But the large majority of our content is informative to come, spend with us, we're also trying to challenge them [00:09:00] to think a little bit differently.because I think if we can get past that, I think we're actually going to be funding. The open internet, but also, quality journalism the industry will get there.Damian: That's interesting. Do you think that advertisers minds are being changed a little bit, or is it that there are new tools to offer more nuance in terms of what they can advertise against?Mike: addressability for them and their campaigns, but how do we get smarter about our contextual, And I think what [00:10:00] we're trying to do in partnership with our advertisers is show them that, an article about, again, our high school sports team shooting that basket that won the game is very different from, a gun shooting or some type of gun violence.So those are the parts that we're hoping we can get advertisers to lean into and build with us. But until some of the technology is there, it's gonna be really a very manual, open dialogue that we're having with them. But I think it's changing. I think especially with the cookie deprecating, it, this is my personal feeling is that it's gonna really spring back to the content, to the quality, and to the objectiveness of that content, that's gonna bring advertisers back to us.Damian: There's one more question. You mentioned at the top, the importance of content variety, and you mentioned long form. Journalism and that's another form that's been disappearing un unless it's in national magazines, why is that important and why is a variety of [00:11:00] content an important factor for, a newspaper, publisher, when it comes to finding advertisers to embrace that content and be next to it.Mike: Yeah, it's a great question. What we've seen is the long form content, especially as it relates to the weekends, people really are looking to understand what's happening at the local level, but they're looking for just, I think more than just the two or three paragraphs, about, what's happening there.[00:12:00] They're Spectrum of what is happening at home.And I think that's what's really important for us, is to just show, you can cover the breaking news all day, you can maybe get the hits from, search, and maybe everyone's curious about that advertisers might not want to run against, but the majority of what people are coming to read us on is, what happened yesterday and what should I be doing this weekend?And I think those are things that we can answer for them.Damian: Yeah.Ilyse: Totally, and outside of specific content, [00:13:00] There's been, like, a number of major publications, including the New York Times, that have leaned into the subscription model, especially as, they realize, cookies will be going away, we need to make sure our revenue model is still intact, we need people reading the news, should this be free, it's, we are providing a service, there's a whole list of reasons why, a subscription model has been implemented, and part of that is enlarging, also your footprint through podcasts and other apps, but as we've all seen, not everybody has that kind of scale to do that. What role should advertising play then versus that subscription model?Mike: Yes. Great question. I am a proponent of advertising helps fund the open internet. I will always champion that. And I also say that we have a phenomenal, customer engagement and consumer marketing team that is driving [00:14:00] an amazing subscription business. But I, Looking at the evolution of subscriptions, I think, especially in a market, economic market, that there's a lot of choice now, and especially with things like streaming. I think there's a lot more penny pinching, that is happening. In a past life, I've, really analyzed are people willing to have multiple newspaper subscriptions or are they really just leaning into one and Just have that brand loyalty and something that we've been really taking a hard look at is one, who's subscribing to our Publications but where are they and I think something that we've been taking that look at is it in DMA?Is it out of DMA? So we're catering to that subscription audience. But at the same time, we know there are going to be people that aren't going to subscribe. Maybe they don't have the budget to subscribe and we still want to provide them that same level of quality content and news and informative news.So we've [00:15:00] been a little bit different in that we have two types of, publication formats. We have a free model and a paid model are paid is exactly what it sounds like. It has a lot more of that long form, behind a paywall, investigative journalism, some of that content.  but there's a different type of content that we're sharing that is allowing, people to still stay informed and still, Be engaged in their local community.And what we're hoping is that it will have this flywheel effect where when people see the type of content that we're putting out there,  And that's how we've been thinking about it, and we have a lot of investment on our free model.Ilyse: that note, you mentioned this before that you guys have implemented like more games, and you're not the only ones, looking to gain or find more ways to really gain more first party data, especially as like cookies deprecate. Are there any other [00:16:00] strategies that Hearst is using?I guess looking into to create and build that free content model.Mike: We have a robust first party data set. It's very important to us. I just want to plug that everything the extreme, quality of being privacy compliant and really lean in. We take, we really value the first party data that we have. But with that being To your point, we've been really thinking of different types of experiences that we can unlock for our users., as we mentioned, we have a new site called Puzzmo that if anyone ever wants to play Spell Tower, I highly recommend it. It's an extremely fun game. But what's really great about the Puzzmo site is there's an interactive community aspect to it where you can play games. With your friends, you can time yourself.There's a bit more of a [00:17:00] social activation to it. That we've been really having a lot of fun with and we're seeing the returns back on the well.  And we have, other partnerships that are currently in the works as well that are gonna help, bring different forms of content, like that to, better just help people, understand what they're doing with their time, , with probably a little bit of free time that they have. We just want to help them relax a little bit more.Damian: like that, yeah. I know what you mean, though, about still feeling cooped up. Somehow that pandemic mentality didn't fully go away. I don't know. Mike: It's very true. It's very true. And it's, that's been the fun part. really trying to figure out, I, again, I got, I recently got into hiking because of our content. But just knowing that I can find something to do this weekend, and share it with, friends and family. And Google and there's just a choice. We [00:18:00] help narrow it down for you.Damian: Yeah. Speaking of Google, here's a little segue. We've already mentioned cookie deprecation several times in this conversation.I just wanted to zero in on how you think about that identity conundrum that publishers are facing right now. What are the sort of solves for it that you're thinking about?Mike: Yes. So we've been very leaned into, the identity, I'll call it ecosystem and identity resolution. We are. pretty lucky with that first party data that we do have. Being 137 year old brand and loyal readers we've been collecting this for quite some time. I think we've also been ready for the cookie to deprecate for quite some time.It's been a challenge when things keep getting pushed back, but what we'veIlyse: ready. Sorry. Sorry.Mike: but what really leaning into isMaking sure that, we understand how do we still provide [00:19:00] relevant advertising in a cookie less world. And as a result, we've been leaning into the deterministic side of the house.We have, millions of email email addresses and that we, that people have consented to give us. We're being very smart about it. We are creating opportunities. It's very funny. I think back on newsletters when I first got into this industry, and it was just static creatives that you see when you news.And, but we've been really thinking outside the box of how do we, Utilize these premium more. How do we lean into a newsletter strategy that isn't just, Hey, this is what happened, then I would go into, I would share that we're working really hard on the contextual end as well. because you guys are so local, I think you would be a great source to talk about DMAs. Where would you [00:20:00] say is your largest markets and how do you then incentivize readers?Yes I think about DMAs all the time. I will say that we, while we have, we provide that national reach, I would say our largest DMAs are typically Houston San Francisco and and, Albany, New York. Many, I would say all of Connecticut, just the entire state of Connecticut.We, we have a slam dunk in coverage. But I think what's really interesting, I'll use San Francisco Chronicle as a great example of. And I didn't know this until I really started here, which is people who are reading the San Francisco Chronicle, they're obviously reading it in San Francisco, but a lot of people travel to LA or work in Palo Alto or are traveling all throughout California and are actively reading the Chronicle.And then I have a bunch of friends who've told me this, who are Ex San Franciscans who now live in New York, [00:21:00] who are San Francisco Chronicle subscribers. And what we've been really trying to track is understanding people who have brain loyalty, who want to know what's happening in their community but maybe aren't there anymore.So we've market coverage. And in New York but we want to be there letting them know everything that's happening.So it's been a very fun project of mine, [00:22:00] which is just slicing and dicing the different parts of America to see where are our second, third, large, fourth largest DMAs as it relates to our core key markets. And how do we come up with a different strategy? I think going back to even the whole free, paid, what are we doing with cookies?Of it all is we've actively are looking into the DMA aspect as well to see, maybe paying for a subscription for the San Francisco Chronicle is tough when you're in New York and you're living a busy life. In which case, maybe we do something a little bit different for them. Maybe we provide them different incentives to come back to us.So that's been a something I've been working on actively on the back end, which has been a lot of fun.you see a big surge during an election year?Coincidentally this year has been, normally we do, this year's been a little different. I don't know if it's here in America, at least at a national level, People either have, [00:23:00] already. into the back half of the Damian: That makes sense. Given the fact that there wasn't so much hoopla around primary season, there was no real need for a primary this year, right? On either side.Mike: Exactly. It's, and it's very interesting too, because I think it's thrown some of the political agencies and trading desk for a loop a little bit. there are certain people that we can rely on and we actively are talking to, and even they're like, Hey, I got the money, [00:24:00] but We're doing it laterand uh, you when it comes to budgeting, we budgeted that it would be a little bit more of a stronger year, but I, I think we're hoping that over time, people are gonna pick it back up.Ilyse: Yeah not to resort back to the doom and gloom, but, and bring up a certain Company again. But, so Google recently threatened to remove links and pause investments for California publishers in response to the pending California Journalism Preservation Act, also known as CJPA, due to them having to basically pay a fee to link Californians to news articles. Is this concerning to Hearst at having, of course, properties in California, and if so, why?Mike: I'll say local news is always under pressure. Just over, even ongoing State law as it relates to privacy. I think these are just things that are going to [00:25:00] continue to happen and you know we have to remain steadfast in our position of what we do and forming people and communities as business as usual, but it's something that we are very close to and we are continue to work with a lot of our people Largest partners and the walled gardens to ensure that,But it's something that we just, we, again, it's an, it's another day and another challenge. And I firmly believe we're going to get through it.Ilyse: So Mike, how would you say news blockers are basically an impediment to advertisers? Mike: it does. And I would say it's really from these fourth parties. I think it's the way we're getting tagged, even at a keyword level, lot of our advertisers. Are running if they're not running against an allowless block list on the domain level, which we've had to unblock, we've had people spend with us and want to do a buy with us, and then we later find [00:26:00] out that they, we were on a block list for news.But I think the difficult part as it relates to is someone will not want to run against any type of Donald Trump content or Trump. And. That will get tagged as not brand safe as relates to their advertising buy. But in actuality, the content itself is not brand safe. It's just, I think the, like we, if we said, Hey Trump is the new Republican candidate who needs to is for the candidate that.Content is deemed not brand safe and we remove that we don't think advertiser would run on, but the challenge has been how an [00:27:00] article about Trump being the new candidate versus advertisers, both of those are equal, and we just need to figure out a better way to inform them of those types of things. I always, I again, I'll use shot block list, and we will talk about basketball shots and people shooting three pointers to win games.And that content will be tagged unbrand safe when it's probably the most brand safe community based content that you're going to get. So those are the challenges that we're actively engaging with people on. It's just informing them more about the contextual relevancy and [00:28:00] less on individual keywords and isolation.Ilyse: Awesome.Now, outside of your localized newspapers, how does Hearst newspapers overall market yourselves? Is there a national story you're trying to tell?Mike: Yes, there definitely is. so across newspapers I also will plug, I run a team called Hearst Mosaic we and sell across both newspapers and TV. We have about 86 million uniques monthly. We have a really large audience. We can give you national reach, we can give you local reach, but at the end of the day we can give you performance and we have an engaged audience who wants to hear from you.Ilyse: need to. Damian:and that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back [00:01:00] next week, so stay tuned.Ilyse: The current podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.Ilyse: I'm Ilyse,Damian: And we'll see you next time. Please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report, a weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media.

Ford's chief futurist joins The Current Podcast to discuss how preparing for the future is imperative for marketing. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to Season 9 of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: And we're kicking off this new season with Jennifer Brace, Chief Futurist at Ford. [00:00:11] Damian: Now, Jennifer has deep roots at Ford. Not only did her father work for the company, but she started working there 20 years ago, first as an engineer. [00:00:20] Ilyse: Now her days are filled with keeping an eye on all things that could impact Ford's business in the future. Everything from AI to the latest consumer trends. Her team is often keeping track of four different futures at once. [00:00:34] We started by asking Jennifer about her title, Chief Futurist. [00:00:39] Jennifer: I'll be honest with you and tell you that, uh, Apparently my future in skills were not intact when I started working for Ford because I would have never expected to be in such a role. That being said, what I do as the chief futurist is I spend a lot of time paying attention to trends and signals, paying attention to [00:01:00] the categories that we refer to as steep, meaning social, technological, economic, environmental, and political. Um, you'll notice I did not mention automotive. That is also by design. And what I like to think of my job is paying attention to all the things that are happening outside of automotive that might come back and impact our business or the environment that we have to operate within. [00:01:24] So, I actually never say that I predict the future, I say instead I help teams prepare for the future. So, Uh, you know, contrary to the, the title of futurist, um, I can't actually see the future. I wish I could. I was disappointed when I found out like the job did not come with a crystal ball that worked or anything like that. [00:01:43] Ilyse: You say that, that does not include automotive. By design, you say. Why is that? [00:01:50] Jennifer: Well, the truth is there's a ton of experts in the automotive space within this company, and I'm happy to lean on them for their expertise and understanding whether it be, [00:02:00] um, the future of, you know, engine propulsion systems or battery technology and things like that. I let them kind of own that space. [00:02:07] And when I want to know more about it, I can talk to them about what they're seeing and how they, they continue to see it evolve. [00:02:13] So a lot of what I do, I like to say that, um, part of our job is to connect the dots so by connect the dots, I mean, if we're seeing something happening, maybe in, education, if we're seeing something happening in mental health. What my job would be to do in my team is we're going to take some time and we're going to say, okay, if we're seeing this happen over here, can we connect the dots to get it to a point where it might come back and impact our business and come back and impact our products or services, um, the environment that we're operating within. [00:02:42] So a lot of the times we're starting at the very high level. Then we talk about how it could impact the market. And then we get to how it could impact Ford or a specific product, depending on, um, what work we're doing at the time. [00:02:53] Damian: One of the questions just based on what you just said, you know, you're sort of looking at current trends. But then how do you kind of extrapolate [00:03:00] from those current trends? A kind of future scenario. And what's the kind of chronology of that? [00:03:05] I mean, what's the time shift? Are you looking out a year, two years? [00:03:10] Jennifer: So the answer is yes. In terms of timeframes, we do look at an array of timeframes. I would think of the one year timeframe is a much clearer. Then say the five or 10 year time frame. So of course, the farther out you go, the more kind of opportunity that the trend could shift or change. [00:03:28] So when we're looking at trends, often what we're doing is number one, we're we have to take data that we see today. Um, but we'll also we'll go back and we'll try to understand whether the trend has momentum. We'll look for other signals to help us Start to quantify that trend for example, if you're understanding where venture capital dollars are being spent or even how many times a term is brought up in, uh, earnings calls, something like that. [00:03:53] So when we're thinking of trends, we're all, my team, we're always trying to add some of that, um, that data element to make sure that we're [00:04:00] proving to ourselves that we're taking it through some checks and, and gateways to ensure that we do believe it's a trend that has some staying power. [00:04:08] And then the other side of that, when we're thinking about how the future might be different, I think of the trends as the things that we feel confident in. We, things are things that we quote unquote know, or we expect to continue moving forward, but the other half of that are, are the things that we don't know, and that's what we would call uncertainties, um, and those uncertainties. [00:04:28] are duly named because they could go in any direction and we don't pretend to know what direction those might go in. We look at both trends and uncertainties, uh, to consider how different futures might play out. [00:04:42] Damian: That's fascinating. And how, given all those different scenarios, do you determine which of the scenarios are the kind of headline scenarios? I mean, I know that you talk about different futures. Do you winnow it down to a specific number of futures? [00:04:58] Jennifer: Yeah. So usually what [00:05:00] we, the way we tend to do it, if we like doing for future matrix, if you will, if you take two critical uncertainties, uh, typically we would pick dependent on the problem. We will pick whatever uncertainties we feel are the most impactful. [00:05:13] So, with the state of EVs, for example, we might look at the regulatory landscape might be one of those where it could become, you know, more stringent or less for that matter. And then we might take another access something say like, um, maybe social acceptance. Of EVs. How's the public feeling about it? [00:05:33] It's kind of a mix of art and science, if you will. [00:05:35] Damian: Do you find that, um, you're ever surprised by something that's gone away? [00:05:42] Jennifer: Yeah. You know, it is a constant. Kind of moving beast, if you will, in terms of where we see momentum and energy. It's rare, to be honest with you, for us to consider something, a trend, we take it through several gateways. So it's rare that it goes away completely. [00:06:00] If it's something that we've considered a trend. [00:06:03] Um, I'm I'm calling it out that way because the way that my team works, we're very Um, scientific with what we consider to be a trend, something that has gone through a lot of gateways for us to believe that it's got lasting power versus something that would be a signal. Now a signal, we don't know what way it's going to go. We don't know if it's got lasting power yet. So it's the type of thing that we would start tracking because it's a signal and we'd want to be paying attention to it. [00:06:28] But, um, the signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends. [00:06:33] Ilyse: That's really interesting. I mean, especially when the culmination of all those trends become like four different futures, which is a lot, a lot of futures. [00:06:42] Jennifer: It's a lot to think about, isn't [00:06:44] Ilyse: a lot to look at at once. [00:06:45] Jennifer: feedback sometimes from teams that they're like, but can't we just pick one?  [00:06:51] do we have to think about four? [00:06:54] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, and when you say, um, you guys don't predict but you prepare,[00:07:00] can you explain the difference a little bit [00:07:02] Jennifer: So when it comes to predicting, um, that is saying that we can see the future and this is what it looks like. And the truth is nobody, nobody really has that power. [00:07:13] And that's why we say that we help people prepare because the truth is, if you've made a prediction. And you're wrong. And one of these uncertainties comes up and changes the game. You've put all your eggs in one basket and you're in trouble. I like to say that COVID made our job a lot easier and trying to convince people that betting on a single future could be dangerous, so that is when we're asking teams to be prepared for the future by considering more than one. Uh, more than one scenario. [00:07:45] What we're asking you to do is to kind of recognize where your blind spots might be in your current strategy and how you might pivot if you need to. So it can be used in, you know, in product and, um, in different parts of the business and, and of course, um, also in marketing, [00:08:00] uh, a lot of what we're doing when it comes to the marketing side is trying to understand. [00:08:05] sentiment. So where are people? How are they feeling? What are their needs? How are their, um, how are their needs or sentiments shifting? We'll do things like trying to understand how people feel about Technology like AI is a great, um, a great example that, uh, that we've been talking about quite a bit in the last year or so, uh, and how people are feeling about it and, and understanding where people are at and how we might see that evolving helps us. [00:08:34] Within marketing to understand, um, how consumers might be willing to accept a technology, how they expect it to work into their lives or what they expect out of the brands and the companies that are using a technology, how they expect to hear about it, understand its use, all of those things. So it's understanding where. [00:08:50] where consumers are at, and then starting to think about how, how that might look different moving forward, or maybe how different generations are approaching [00:09:00] it. All of that becomes useful information from a, from a marketing side as we're trying to communicate and connect with our consumers, and, and of course, trying to develop new products and services to meet their needs. [00:09:10] Ilyse: Now, you mentioned COVID and the impact that had, um, and who could have predicted that one? I don't know, maybe you guys did, maybe you knew it was coming up [00:09:19] Jennifer: will say there were lots of warnings. World Health Organization, CDC were certainly warning everybody that pandemics were On the way with how connected we were as a society and, and how, um, how we had seen some signals that the truth is that we saw signals before that there was Mark, uh, MERS, there was SARS, Ebola. [00:09:38] Um, so there were some signals, but most, most would agree that we didn't necessarily take them seriously enough to be prepared. COVID jolted us so much because it was this thing that we all, even though we had, I don't know, maybe just my team, but I think a lot of people would have said, oh, right. I remember that. Oh, I remember that there were some other, um, epidemic type things that [00:10:00] were, that were talked about, but it didn't hit me directly. [00:10:02] So I didn't think about it. Um, But if you really go back, the signals, the signals were there, But I'm not making any predictions on what the next big kind of black swan event will be. [00:10:13] Ilyse: Are there any other, would you say, micro or macro perhaps trends that brands should be paying attention to? [00:10:22] Jennifer: There's a lot of things that are happening that, um, that we all need to be paying attention to. AI, we can't, we can't stop talking about it. Right. It's bringing up a lot of questions, I should say, um, in terms of the way that we operate, the way that we work, the way that we interact and engage with our services, our everything that's around us, [00:10:41] um, the other thing that is very highly connected to that would be trust and how are people. building trust? How are they gaining trust? Do they believe the information that they get? Where is the trusted source of information? what we are certainly seeing from a, um, a high level is that people trust [00:11:00] those around them. [00:11:01] You know, they, they build a trusted circle of friends and family. That's the number one. Number one trusted element in their life is their friends and family and, uh, we continue to see, you know, trusted institutions going down. We are seeing some increases in trust in businesses, but even that has some, some ebbs and flows, big business versus small business or tech company versus, um, versus something else. [00:11:24] I think there's a lot, a lot to be said about how people are feeling in general when it comes to mental health and wellness that continues to be a huge, huge topic. And we do see differences in generations. So we see our younger generations being more likely to say that they have mental health as a stressor, they have more anxiety, they feel lonely more often than our older generations. [00:11:47] Um, the other thing I would say, um, talking about our older generations is understanding how, how they're living. Our boomers are in retirement, but are they really retiring? They're staying super active. They are, they are kind of [00:12:00] redefining, um, their, uh, their golden years, if you will. [00:12:03] Damian: That's really interesting. As a Gen Xer, I feel like, you know, I used to be, uh, the youthful generation, but that suddenly caught up with me, which brings me to my point, which is like, The future is now in lots of ways, and what I mean by that is, are there predictions that you have talked about from five years ago that are now being realized, as it were, in real time, so you can say, chalk that one up to success? [00:12:26] Jennifer: Um, I would say a few years ago, we were talking quite a bit about, um, divisiveness growing in our country and how that might, how that might come into play. But lots of different things with respect to technology and how we see the technologies in our lives starting to, to grow in play apart. I smile a little bit when I say that because I feel like a lot of the conversations I'm in this year, people are talking about AI, like it's brand new thing that we've never heard of before. [00:12:55] And we're suddenly inundated with it. Um, but we've been talking about it for a long time [00:13:00] and even back in 2019 when we asked people about AI, like they were reporting that they didn't understand it or that they were afraid of it and what it could be and what it could do. And we expected that it would continue having a large role in people's lives. And we have certainly seen that, um, grow and more recently kind of, rocket and take off, if you will, as generative AI has taken hold. [00:13:26] Ilyse: So yeah, it seems like you guys knew all along. [00:13:29] Damian: Ha ha, yeah. [00:13:31] Jennifer: I would love, I would love to claim that, but, um, but, [00:13:34] Damian: be modest. Don't [00:13:35] Ilyse: Don't be, yeah, don't be [00:13:36] Damian: modest. You know, we talk about AI, but you know, if you had to sort of pick some other hot topics, as it were, that Ford is, not necessarily hot, maybe they're not hot yet, but maybe they will get hot. But if you had to pick some that Ford is looking at when analyzing these possible futures, are there any? [00:13:52] In your, you know, on your dashboard, if I can use an automotive metaphor that, you know, you're, uh, really focused on. [00:13:59] Jennifer: [00:14:00] I would say topics that we continue to explore, right. [00:14:03] When it comes to, uh, several years ago, autonomous driving was, um, was kind of. A big, big topic that we talked about a lot. And we've seen that evolve a bit, right? So where we're focused more on assisted assistance features, um, continuing to, to help make the drive easier for a driver, um, without, necessarily being able to, to do this full autonomous, uh, Future where we're taking them from, you know, the door of their house to the door of their work without them having to lift a finger. [00:14:33] Um, so we're not there yet. Uh, when it comes to technology. So, so the supportive technologies there, we continue to investigate and we continue to look for ways to make it easier for consumers. So, so leaning into that. [00:14:47] Ilyse: Do you feel, though, that technology overall has kind of caught up with the forward thinking nature of your job? [00:14:54] Jennifer: I mean, absolutely. The good and bad, right, is about technology is that it continues to evolve and it feels like [00:15:00] it's moving faster every day, [00:15:02] often what we say is, it's hard to imagine unimaginable tech because in, you know, 10 or 15 years, if we think of technology as being a thousand times. Stronger or better than it is today. The easiest way we would look for signals might be reading scientific papers. It might be looking at patents often at some of those earlier things that sound almost a little bit weird. years ago, talking robot sounded kind of weird and now. We see examples of that [00:15:34] Damian: Yeah. [00:15:35] Jennifer: place right when we think about AI and chatbots and whatnot. [00:15:40] So if I see something that sounds a little bit. [00:15:43] weird, uh, to try to like squash my immediate reaction of, Oh, that's crazy. Oh, that'll never happen. And instead lean into it and try to understand it and say, well, what happened? What would it be like if that became a thing? [00:15:55] Ilyse: Yeah, you spoke to me briefly for your profile, which is on [00:16:00] TheCurrent. com, and you were telling me a little bit about how AI could eventually work its way into the overall, like, car experience, especially for, like, on the consumer side. [00:16:13] Jennifer: Yeah, sure. So, you know, we're not talking about anything specific when it comes to the technology in our cars, but thinking about it in terms of what we see happening outside of the car and and how that might change the experience. I think that really kind of obvious, easy application is with the way that you are interacting with your car with if you're asking it to do something, being able to have a more natural two way conversation and in a lot of ways, anticipate some of the things that you might need. For example, if you are up, uh, going into the office and let's say you're up an hour earlier than usual or something like that. Wouldn't it be great if your car said, Hey, would you like me to order? Uh, you know, the Venti at Starbucks instead of your [00:17:00] usual ground day? [00:17:00] You're up early today. Creating a relationship or in having it feel like it's almost your friend helping you along, understanding what you need and as, as technologies improve, that is the type of thing I would expect to be able to, to have a, a stronger relationship and for the car to be able to understand, um, not only what you're asking of it, but also to even anticipate What your needs might be as it learns your habits and behaviors and, and starts to, to get smarter. [00:17:30] Damian: Something just occurred to me, you know, I know you're focused on on an automotive kind of scenario. [00:17:35] But do you think about digital advertising and where that's going to? Is that something that intersects with what you think? [00:17:42] Jennifer: There's a lot of questions happening with respect to AI. I think digital advertising is a, is a fascinating space. If we think about ways that AI might help content creation easier. [00:17:52] Um, I would also expect that it would make it easier to connect with specific consumers and understanding what they need or what, um, what might [00:18:00] resonate with them. Understanding, you know, kind of where they're at, whether it be kind of physically where they're at, or even like mentally what space they're in, as we get better understanding of that, I would expect that AI should be able to help with that. [00:18:13] Ilyse: Now, you weren't always a futurist, or even a marketer, you actually come from a background of engineering why did you move into the marketing side of things? And how would you say your engineering background has really helped you in your marketing positions at Ford? [00:18:31] Jennifer: I would say. It was not an expected career move. If I'm honest, it was, uh, an opportunity that came up, uh, when I was in engineering, I spent a lot of time working on our in vehicle technology, on our sync systems, and this was at a time when, uh, I joke we used to always carry like Garmin systems like navigation systems in a bag. [00:18:54] We were carrying them into our cars at the time when I started working on putting a touchscreen directly in the [00:19:00] car and having all of those controls kind of in one spot. I ended up working with our marketing team quite a bit to help them with the communications, both to train our dealers and our customers for how to do these things that were all new at the time. So that was kind of when I got my feet wet with, with marketing was more helping them, uh, because I understood the technical side, but as I've, you know, moved into the marketing organization and understood more about the ways, um, that it is utilized and that it comes into the process, it is super helpful to have a background of understanding the engineering side of the work, and I can help to bring that knowledge into the conversation. [00:19:38] Um, sometimes it's just as simple as, Oh, if we're going and talking to the engineers, let's make sure that we've got data to back up all of these things that we're saying, because. You know, the, that will get them bought in to what we're saying. They don't want to hear a pretty story. They want to see the data. [00:19:53] Damian: When I was growing up, I remember I had this book called The Science in Science Fiction and it explained why certain things were possible in science [00:20:00] fiction films. For instance, you can't see lasers in space. Alright, there was a disappointment to me when I read that. [00:20:05] But my question is, um, you know, you look at the science And you also think about the future. So I'm wondering if you read a lot of science fiction, if you kind of those two things kind of work for you. [00:20:17] Jennifer: Yeah, sometimes. [00:20:18] So I do less of the reading. Sometimes I, I will watch it more just because usually, um, honestly, like. TV and media. They do a great job of pushing our thinking. Like Black Mirror, for example, um, Right. That's a great one. It's, it's kind of a, often it's like these cautionary tales, um, but they really do a good, a good job of taking something that we see today and pushing it into the future and enforcing us to think about how that might happen. [00:20:47] Ilyse: Obviously, a new technology is great and can be helpful, but there can also be, like Black Mirror has shown us, um, some very terrible things that can happen because of those, um, such great [00:21:00] technology. Um, as a futurist, my question to you is, what keeps you up at night? [00:21:05] Jennifer: Where do we begin? Right now, I think it, we are on the cusp of, of some very, um, potentially concerning advancements when it comes to, I think generative AI is a particularly scary one right now because of. How good it's getting at, at faking or at looking and sounding exactly like the real thing. [00:21:29] That one is, is particularly concerning. I think that we're going to see a lot of it. It's a political year here in the U S uh, in terms of the election coming up. So I, I will not be surprised if that comes up often. I'm curious to see how that's going to play out. [00:21:43] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:21:45] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:21:48] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:21:54] Damian: Cairns. And remember, [00:21:56] Jennifer: signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends [00:21:58] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:21:59] Ilyse: I'm [00:22:00] Ilyse. [00:22:00] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Major League Soccer's VP of Brand Marketing, Jesse Perl, joins The Current Podcast to discuss how young people are growing more interested in soccer, the league's deal with Apple TV+, and the importance of building local support for MLS teams. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. TTD_S8_E10_MLS//JESSE PERLMANIlyse Liffrieng: (00:01)I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler: (00:02)And I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Lieffring: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler: (00:10)This week we're delighted to speak with Jesse Pearl, the VP of Brand Marketing at Major League Soccer Ilyse Lieffring: (00:16)For Millennials and Gen Zers. It almost feels like the MLS has been around forever, but actually the league wasn't founded until the USA's successful bid to host the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Before then, the US just wasn't a serious contender in the soccer game or football as it's commonly called across the world.Damian Fowler: (00:34)Times have certainly changed, but the league still has to compete with the likes of sports juggernauts like the NFL, which has long reaped higher viewership and fandom in the US. Jesse talks to us about the unique challenges the MLS faces compared to other sports leagues and how he's prepping for the upcoming 2026 FIFA World Cup and how he envisions MLS as a brand.Jesse Perlman: (00:57)I feel really kind of privileged to, you know, be in the role that I am because I think brand really guides how we think about what MLS is and, and what we stand for in the world. And I think there's no real separation, no real daylight between the MLS brand and and MLS. And I think it's really, it's kind of the, the DNA and and the heartbeat of who we are. And I think one of the first things about the MLS brand that's really important is that we are proudly North American. There's a lot of stuff in the world, there's a lot of sports in the world, there's a lot of soccer in the world. And being North American, being kind of uniquely North American, this idea of creating our own North American version of what soccer means is actually really powerful. And I think if, if we look at all these different places across North America, the US and Canada, where MLS is thriving, I think it is about being able to tap into something that really represents, you know, what those cities are.Jesse Perlman: (01:49)There's a kind of an attitude and a spirit of North America that is really kind of transcendent in culture, right? I think North American culture itself is, is an export. And for us it's this idea of being really positive and confident, but in a really sort of positive way. So this kind of infectious positive North American spirit and attitude where we're kind of getting to remix the best of international soccer as well as the best of North American sports traditions and kind of make our own thing out of it. We've got playoffs, right? That's not something that happens in soccer, but I think we just kind of witnessed why it's, why it's great. And all of that sort of creates this idea of, of another part of our brand, which is this idea that, you know, without overstating it, it's a soccer movement here that's happening in, in North America that's kind of sweeping North America. So how we get to all that really is through our supporter groups, our supporter culture, the TFOs, the chance, the Kapos, all the things that they kind of bring to the party is, um, it's really kind of the secret sauce of all of this.Damian Fowler: (02:45)And what's fascinating about this as well is the fast evolution of this. I want to sort of date myself and say I arrived in this country just after college in 1994, and that was when the US last time the US hosted the World Cup and now we we're seeing it's gonna be hosting it again with Canada and Mexico in 2026. So that's basically three decades, you know, and you've seen this tremendous growth of professional soccer. Could you talk a little bit about those bookends and you know, how you've seen the trajectory of the sport, how quickly the sport has grown in those three decades?Jesse Perlman: (03:16)It's pretty staggering, and I think even the biggest optimist, I don't think would've bet that we'd get to where we are as quickly as we did. The 2026 World Cup is such a great kind of marker to, to kind of measure these things because you know, our story, the story of MLS starts with the 1994 World Cup for sure, right? We fulfilled what the hope and the potential, you know, was, you know, we launched in 96, you know, on the heels of the 94 World Cup. And by the way, that's in no way to say that we're declaring victory in its job done for us. I think to be in 29 cities, to have the amount of soccer specific stadiums we have to have the support that we have in these MLS communities that are, you know, settin record attendance to look at media partnerships like Apple that I think are rewriting the scripts in sports media to have the current reigning ballon d'or World Cup champion greatest player of all time messy here in our league, you know, to look at the young up and coming players, homegrown players, stars from, you know, some of the most storied teams in in South America and players that'll also, you know, will sell for record fees that go on to win Champions league games.Jesse Perlman: (04:26)And, and so I think it's really, I think the complete picture of everything that we could have hoped to set out to do. But for sure, you know, the the best is still yet to come.Ilyse Lieffring: (04:35)But you know, North America, particularly the US I would say, aren't known for being big soccer fans. So what would you say are like the challenges and then the opportunities of marketing soccer in this context?Jesse Perlman: (04:49)You know, I do think it's changing when you look at youth, when you look at Gen Z, when you look at six to 14 and 14 to 18, and these critical ages of where fandom is really, you know, set and takes root, soccer's a top sport of interest, that's been the trend and that trend is continuing and it's really favorable for us as a sport. You know, millennials, right? Are, are now parents of young kids and, and we know the influence that parents have on the interest of, of their children. And there are some kind of studies came out, uh, recently naming MLS as a top 10 fastest growing brand along among millennials right there alongside our, our great partner, you know, apple tv. So especially as marketers means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.Jesse Perlman: (05:36)We've got nothing but respect and admiration for the other North American sports leagues, whether that's the NFL or NBA or I think what we've got all is respect and admiration. I think we're also able to kind of look at, you know, some of those traditional North American leagues as traditional. We really feel like we get the permission to to be the enemy of tradition sometimes. And, and, and we love that. So I think kind of being able to stand for the things that differentiate us is ultimately how I think we'll continue to, to win over time.Ilyse Lieffring: (06:03)Are there any numbers you can point to that show the growth of the MLS over these past three decades?Jesse Perlman: (06:09)Big picture. There's, you know, there's probably a few things that are, that do really kind of stand out and I think kind of signal the continued kind of really explosive growth. Um, you know, one of the most important in sports is attendance. And we're continuing to set record attendance year over year. We just had another record year. That's a huge indicator. You know, ultimately there's um, we're in entertainment, right? And we're competing against, you know, sitting at home on your couch and binge watch and Netflix and you know, going to the latest restaurant and whatever else you can do. And I think for people to be motivated to go out there, go to the stadiums in record numbers kind of says it all. And I think in addition to that, we can look at things like valuation of an MLS franchise. You know, I believe LAFC was reported in Forbes as just crossing the, uh, the billion dollar threshold for franchise valuation.Jesse Perlman: (06:56)I could tell you when I joined in 2007, 2008, that was not the value of an MLS franchise. And all those kind of economic indicators I think are, are really healthy. And um, even if it's not necessarily an exact quantified metric, you know, the ability to go out there and, and have a, you know, media partnership like Apple again, right, or Adidas partnership in these best in in category global brands, I think again is another indicator. And I think the last one that's worth mentioning is the brick and mortar kind of growth. Here again, I think when I started we had, you know, a handful of soccer specific stadiums and now virtually all of our teams are, if they're not already playing in a soccer specific stadium, they're in the process of open the doors on one.Damian Fowler: (07:35)One other thing that stands out to me is as to go back to that nineties thing, I remember when I came here, I could, it was hard to actually find, you know, international games on the dial, on cable channels. Obviously in the last few years we've seen this sort of flourishing of the game across many streaming channels. I mean, you can watch the Premier League on Peacock, you can watch Champions League on Paramount Plus and media and the presence of media is such an important driver of fandom. Is that one of the big factors for the MLS?Jesse Perlman: (08:07)No doubt. Similarly, right? Like growing up, you know, in the nineties being a huge soccer fan, right? You had to work so hard to seek it out. I remember running to the Barnes and Nobles to get my monthly magazine of 442 or World Soccer and um, that was how you stayed current. Now there's so much access, right? Ultimately I think that's a good thing for us, more people watching more soccer. I think it just, you know, increases the amount of interest and curiosity and, and conversation. And there's certainly a lot of, you know, competition for eyeballs. And you know, what we're trying to win more than anything is as hearts and minds. And, um, it's great for you to be a fan of other soccer teams and clubs and leagues and we really do embrace that. But if you're here in the US and Canada, you really can't get up close to that, right? And so being a fan of MLS just means something different. That's where we really feel like it's a huge differentiator that access, you know, to kind of be a part of an MLS community.Damian Fowler: (09:00)Can you talk a little bit about the significance of the Apple TV season pass?Jesse Perlman: (09:05)It's a game changer. It really is in so many ways. I mean, I think the first thing for me is as a marketer, as a, as a kind of brand leader, there's probably no brand that's more recognized and admired than Apple on the planet, the ability for us to become an Apple brand, which I think is what's happened, right? It changes the perception, the reach of Apple, the scale, the reach, the deep love and admiration for their brand that people have. All those are really just kind of the starting points. But when you get inside the sort of Apple world and you kind of realize and learn like how many incredible layers there are to their growing and expanding ecosystem of products and services and ways for MLS to show up and, and be a part of that, you know, we just officially wrapped our first season together.Jesse Perlman: (09:50)When we kind of think about all the things we were able to do as co marketers, even year one, it's been a really fantastic starting point and we had some incredible activations around Messi, his game here in New York. We were able to work with our friends and partner with them at New York, Red Bulls and Apple to have this, you know, kind of takeover in Times Square of a live viewin party that sort of traveled around the world. That moment of people gather in Times Square to to watch Messi on a giant Times Square billboard. And I think some of the real sort of inside culture things that we did with Apple Music, you know again, partnering with great club like Nashville had a kit inspired by a Johnny Cash, the Man in black kit working with the Johnny Cash Estate and Apple Music. We all kind of came together working with some incredible music artists and talents to cover Johnny Cash songs. And so these really kind of integrated kind of campaigns that we were able to to do. Um. Damian Fowler: (10:42)I wanted to ask you, uh, Jesse, about the kind of cross-fertilization with international leagues. You know, I'm a big fan of Liverpool, I watch the Premier League every weekend and you know, obviously there's La Liga and then, you know, la bundesliga, all of those things, you know, and football from south of the border. How does that work? How is that an important factor in driving fandom and is it a sort of cross fertilization or is it like a separate kind of group of fans?Jesse Perlman: (11:07)No, I think, I think it's really additive are clubs that are really succeeding and have these, the thriving kind of fan bases that they do. Those fans are also fans of other international soccer teams and, and we love that it's part of the, the thing that we love about soccer as a sport for anybody that truly loves it, it's the kind of international dimension is like what makes it different than other sports, right? For me personally, it's been a lens to kind of learn about the world and learn about other cultures and it really kind of expands people. We're never shying away from that. I think we want everybody who's a fan and has a team in, whether it's in, you know, the Premier League or the Bundesliga or Serie A or anywhere else around the world, or Argentina or Mexico, Liga MX, you know, we want them to know that they're invited to still be loyal fans of, of those teams, whether it's passed down from generation to generation or something they discovered on their own. 'cause all that is complimentary, right? I think, you know, that's part of what being a soccer fan, you know, looks like. So we, we embrace it.Ilyse Lieffring: (12:05)As much as it's a global game. It's very much made up of very localized fans at the same time, how important are local efforts in each city? For instance, building stadiums or the infrastructure, how is that key to driving that local support or community supports?Jesse Perlman: (12:25)Really as important as anything. And I think it's been what's defined this incredible growth period for MLS. We were kind of chatting earlier about like what it means to be North American and the importance of this kind of brick and mortar investment and building these like incredible cathedrals to soccer. And I think not just building stadiums, but building 'em in the right places, right? Building these in the kind of heart of the downtowns. I think it's made all the difference and, and continues to, and it's really timely. I mean, we just had MLS cup in columbus@lower.com field, brand new state-of-the-art best in sports anywhere in the world placed to watch live sports. That stadium was rocking, you know, it was completely electric fan, 28, 30,000 strong in the rain, right? Singing enchanting for 90 minutes and the streets were alive, the city was alive. And you don't have to go back that far to just kind of be reminded of how this franchise went through like one of the most traumatic things you could go through in sports, right?Jesse Perlman: (13:20)There was ownership change, there was concern about what the crew still be around. It's an emphatic like not only are they here, but they just won MLS cup again. On and off the field I think it's so important that it's so local. You know, I think what Columbus represents to crew fans is, you know, is so different than the team that, that came to play them in Columbus. These clubs, they represent really different ideas and communities and, and fan bases, but the common thread is that what they really represent is their cities and, and the idea of their cities in this moment in 2023, I don't think there are brands that better represent Columbus and you know, how it sees itself. I think it being local and localized and really kind of deeply rooted in these, you know, local communities and cultures has been the difference maker.Damian Fowler: (14:07)As I mentioned, I'm a Liverpool fan, and Anfield is, you know, very much a Liverpudlian tradition and they have the traditions there. And at the same time, if you look at the field, it's absolutely international. And so it's that beautiful kind of conjunction of the local and the global. Wanted to ask you about that international presence, you know, the, the MLS of course has been drawing headlines. How do you see the star power playing into your marketing efforts?Jesse Perlman: (14:31)It's another part of what makes sports sports, right? Star players. It's another part of why people tune into sports, why they care about sports and love sports. And you know, certainly people are fans of teams and clubs and, but people also really care about players, right? And some of them will become fans of a team because they're fans of a player. The other thing that's so special about sports, and I think even more so with soccer is who's gonna be the next star? The idea of like the emerging stars, especially we think about these homegrowns the future of the US men's and for the US and Canada national teams. And you know, I think as we look at, you know, Messi, right? We're equally excited about Benjamin Cremaschi learning from a guy like Lionel Messi every day, right? These kind of, you know, future world beaters that are coming through MLS and we're really spending a lot of time and, and energy and focus on how do we continue to hype up all the right players, but especially these, these up and commerce, these emerging stars and really sort of build their brands on and off the field and help more people kind of, you know, fall in love with them because they have incredible stories and we're gonna be hearing about them for years to come.Damian Fowler: (15:35)I heard that the Messi shirt in that iconic pink sold out instantly, impossible to get.Jesse Perlman: (15:41)It is, uh, I can tell you firsthand, I, uh, I failed as an uncle on, uh, on Hanukkah to come up with the goods for my nephews. So it is truly, it is a scarce product.Ilyse Lieffring: (15:51)You know, along with more like just sports documentaries out there on streaming channels, there's also like the rise of live sports at the same time. How would you say the rise in like live sports and streaming contribute to the rise of soccer overall in the us?Jesse Perlman: (16:06)Well, I think it's only increased the amount of soccer that's available for sure. I think we've got more access to more soccer here in the US than just about anywhere in the world. You know, there's probably a lot of people that'd be surprised to learn that, but you know, as a Liverpool fan, I'm sure you'd agree, there's a lot of people in the UK that like, man, that is a pain point in life is just how hard it can be to, to kind of watch the, so you wanna watch and the amount of blackouts and how you kind of just gotta jump through hoops to, uh, be able to watch games sometimes. And so we're spoiled for choice here, and I think streaming has only increased that to me it's an indicator of this is the sport for the future, right? Gen Z and, and younger fans, linear TV is not where they're spending their time, right? They're spending their time on devices and streaming and places like YouTube and, and places like Apple tv. And so I think it's great for us that we're ahead of the curve on that respect as far as kind of live games, and I think we're just so well positioned for that.Ilyse Lieffring: (16:59)The US also gets to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup along, of course with Canada and Mexico. How are you planning to ladder up your marketing to this massive global event,Jesse Perlman: (17:13)I guess can't reveal all the secrets, but No, it's very much in focus for us and to really be thinking multi-year about not just how does the marketing kind of ramp up to the World's Cup, but how does all of our activity as a business really deliberately think about what that's gonna mean for us. I think what's really interesting is during the World's Cup is gonna be the noisiest loudest, most crowded for anybody else marketer. I think everybody's gonna be trying to find a way to talk about the World Cup and soccer, whether, whether they've got the official, you know, FIFA rights to do that or not. And I, and I think all that noise is gonna be, is gonna be good, good, right? I think soccer is just gonna really bleed into the mainstream conversation, uh, in a way that'll kind of eclipse, um, you know, anything before it.Jesse Perlman: (17:59)But I think as, as you know, as marketers here at MLS I, I think the most critical moment for us is actually gonna be what do we do the day the World Cup ends? You know? And I think that's really the incredible opportunity for us to seize because, you know, that kind of World Cup Fever that everybody's gonna catch, the World Cup's gonna be incredible, but it's gonna, it's gonna come and go. There's gonna be a lot of people here that aren't gonna be able to make it to World Cup games that maybe wanted to or maybe wanted to take their kids to it, or it got priced out, or there's only so many seats in so many games. And for MLS to really make sure everybody knows where they can find us, how they can find us, again, I think meet that, meet that moment is, is gonna be, uh, I think it's really gonna be the, the big unlock for us.Damian Fowler: (18:46)And that's it for season eight of the current podcast. Stay tuned for our next season of interviews with the industry's top marketing leaders.Ilyse Lieffring: (18:54)The current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The Trade Desk team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat VesceDamian Fowler: (19:02)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly digest of what's making news across the open internet. And remember,Jesse Perlman: (19:14)Especially as marketers, means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.Damian Fowler: (19:25)I'm Damian,Ilyse Lieffring: (19:26)And I'm Ilyse. Damian Fowler: (19:27)And we'll see you next time.

Now firmly entrenched in Americans' shopping habits, Instacart is eyeing the growing retail media space. Laura Jones, CMO of Instacart, joins The Current Podcast to share the strategy behind the company's tie-ups with Peacock and Roku and how she's reaching shoppers by framing them as the COOs of their households. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing AndDamian: (00:04)Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we're delighted to talk with Laura Jones, the chief marketing Officer of Instacart.Damian: (00:16)Laura has been on a rampage at Instacart since she left Uber and joined the company. In June, 2021, Laura launched the brand's first integrated brand campaign, built an internal creative studio and performance media function, and scaled the marketing department five times to more than 150 people. WhatIlyse: (00:35)Started as a grocery delivery service quickly boomed during the pandemic to the point where Instacart now has over 7 million monthly active orders and works with 1400 retailers growing into areas like retail media, on and off its platform.Laura: (00:55)So Instacart started just over a decade ago and started out as a grocery delivery company. And then when you fast forward to today, the business looks a lot different, the world has changed a lot, there's been a global pandemic and we've come out the other side and Instacart has really evolved over the course of this journey. So we've transformed from being just grocery, just delivery to now a service that has many more retailers on the platform. Of course, uh, most of America's top grocers, but other verticals that we serve like beauty with Sephoras, um, home improvement with Lowe's, as well as of course different modalities. So there's delivery, there's pickup, and we've extended into, uh, B2B offerings as well. So we have a retail enablement platform that our retailers use to power some of their online grocery services and pickups and really continuing to innovate now even getting into in-store.Laura: (01:54)So really thinking about how, you know, in a post pandemic world, customers are really shopping in a more omnichannel way. It's not just delivery, it's not just in-store, it's much more of a hybrid. So we've developed technologies like caper carts or carrot tags, other in-store tools that help bring some of the magic of online shopping into that in-store experience. So you can see that the company has really evolved and as a result, you know, the way that we're thinking about our brand and the future of innovation at the company has to evolve and keep pace as well.Ilyse: (02:30)On that note, from a brand perspective, how have you really worked to evolve the identity of Instacart from that delivery service to a major media platform? NowLaura: (02:40)We really wanted to build across all four sides of the marketplace and make sure that we were building a brand that would mirror the dynamism is of the business. So really wanted to root ourselves in, in our heritage and in our core equity, which of course is the carrot, and really stretch that, um, into a new design system that would enable us to show up and in a really seamless way in all these new different touchpoints that that we have. And so a lot of what my journey has been has been really trying to build out that marketing team across the four sides of the marketplace and build out all the different functions. So of course, continuing to double down on our performance marketing strength, but also building out functions like product marketing, brand marketing, making sure we have great co-marketing teams to partner with both our retailers and our advertisers so that we can go to market in partnership with all of them. And what that enables for us is not just to be a marketing team, but also to help enable other marketing teams. From a co-marketing standpoint, we have, uh, 5,500 brands on our platform from category leaders to emerging brands. And this next chapter of marketing is really about partnering with those brands as well as with our retail partners to make sure that we are going to market using all of our channels together and really helping provide insights to help each of their business grow.Ilyse: (04:12)How do you feel all these additives have really helped differentiate the brand, not only from a consumer standpoint, but perhaps to advertisers asLaura: (04:23)Well? One of the things that this has unlocked for us is the ability to do true full funnel marketing. So instead of just capturing inbound demand through, um, those classical performance channels, we've also been able to really start to generate more demand by going out there and reaching a broader audience and telling a more robust story across channels. So we see that by showing up in both upper and lower funnel and doing so in a coordinated way, we're able to really grow the category and deepen the use cases for existing users as well. So it's been a really critical, uh, business driver that we can go out with a full funnel program. Then from a advertiser standpoint, because of this depth that we have and the level of sophistication that we have when it comes to our own consumer marketing, I think that gives us a, a really thoughtful edge when it comes to thinking about how we're building tools for our advertisers.Laura: (05:23)So of course, I think the reason that most advertisers come to Instacart in the beginning is just because we are so close to the point of purchase, we are quite literally at the point of purchase. So what we find is that our ads on average deliver more than a 15% incremental sales lift and in some cases twice that for our brand partners. So it's a really valuable service to, to our partners, but again, inspired by our own journey, we've thought a lot about creating more spaces in the upper funnel for our advertisers. So of course, sponsored product listings and pricing and promotional discounts are, are wonderful, but once you've tapped out that kind of low hanging fruit from a demand standpoint, you need to generate more demand. What I was talking about, you know, from our own first party experience and the way that we do that is through introducing new formats that help drive more consideration for consumers that might be a bit higher up in that purchase funnel.Laura: (06:19)And so what that looks like for us are shoppable video ads, shoppable display ads in ways to help introduce customers to new categories or products that they might not have been actively considering before that shopping session, but we can actually really make that case to get them focused on it, get their attention, and then help drive that purchase and really be able to measure again, the impact of, of those different formats. The final frontier, which I think will bring the two together and that we've started on this year is that co-marketing I was mentioning. So we can move up the funnel within our own platform, but I think the, the really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on. Um, the co-marketing campaign we did earlier this year with AB InBev, um, in the NFL playoffs, um, making their TV campaign shoppable and integrating it with our CRM system so that we could deliver push notifications timed to hit folks as they're viewing TV ads. And we've done a ton of that over the past year and we're really excited to see the momentum that this program has in addition to our on-platform ads.Damian: (07:37)Could you talk a little bit more about how you use customer data to kind of close that gap between the top and the bottom of the funnel?Laura: (07:46)We take data protection and privacy very seriously. We don't tell consumer data to our retail partners, nor do we share competitive data across retailers or brands. Uh, what we do do is leverage anonymized, aggregated insights. And I think that's especially powerful in this world where our industry is grappling with signal loss and looming third party cookie deprecation. And so that's why this data is really valuable and can be provide a lot of insights to our partners as we think about, you know, how can we more effectively target folks at different stages in the funnel. From our standpoint, we have an incredibly deep understanding of online purchase behavior. Our customers are building large baskets, they're spending a lot of time to engage. They're doing their primary weekly grocery shop on the platform. And so we have a lot of insights about the, the purchase behavior that underlies that.Laura: (08:44)We can also surface insights about complimentary or adjacent purchasing behavior. So for example, if someone's buying peanut butter, it's pretty likely that they might also be buying jelly. And and some of those are obvious, like the ones I just described, but some of them are maybe not as obvious. So cat and dog food customers are more likely to purchase coffee on Instacart than the average Instacart consumer, that that is not as obvious as peanut butter and jelly or customers who buy diapers are more likely to also purchase jerky and trail mix. So if you imagine, you know, being a marketer and having access to this data, it really helps you, number one with the targeting. And number two, just getting those kind of deeper insights that help you have those aha moments that might help you think about your consumer in a whole new way.Ilyse: (09:28)Now in 2022, you introduced display ads onto your platform. How important are these units really to those big CPG companies? And then how do these display units actually help the smaller brands compete with the larger ones?Laura: (09:43)Yeah, so display ads are a great way for brands looking to bring engaging, targeted creative content to consumers. And this really helps with driving brand awareness, new product introductions and inspiration while people are browsing those digital aisles. And so these kinds of top of funnel units, um, can be especially useful I think for emerging brands that might be less familiar to consumers or for new or emerging categories where there might be more education required. And then for larger brands, shoppable display units are a great way to showcase complimentary products across the portfolio and really help with that regimen building. And it does so all within one shoppable ad unit. And of course that's a adjacent to all of the other kinds of ad units that A CPG can purchase, like a sponsored product listing or pricing and promotional discount. So you can really tell a story and then provide incentives for consumers to convert and get that full closed loop measurement all at once.Ilyse: (10:44)This past advertising week, New York Instacart announced it would begin to work with brands to reach customers off platform for brands this can turn their Instacart approach into more of an omni-channel strategy, basically allowing them to reach Instacart's customers across channels like CTV and display. Can you describe the value in this arrangement for advertisers?Laura: (11:08)What we're really trying to do here is provide a way for our CPG advertisers to leverage our data across all their media buys. You know, it really helps us realize this vision of leveraging data to help our partners grow their businesses and doing so in a way that is even more flexible for them. And so they're able to layer their programmatic campaigns with exclusive Instacart data to build category based segments. Like for example, somebody who's bought their category but not their brand, somebody who's bought their brand lapsed brand purchasers or someone who's never purchased with their brand. And this kind of targeting as a marketer is of course so valuable. Um, and we're really excited to have this pilot live and to start looking at how we can continue to lean into this capability and really enable our partners to grow their businesses.Damian: (12:04)Now you recently announced that you'd be bundling, uh, NBCU streaming service peacock for Instacart plus subscribers. You've also partnered with Roku. So I'm wondering if you could talk about the natural synergies between Instacart and streaming platforms like that.Laura: (12:19)The customer we serve, we like to think of as the COO of their household. They're often someone who might be a, a busy parent or a busy individual who's got a lot going on. And oftentimes, you know, there are folks that really do enjoy, um, in that limited spare time they have. They can be streaming their favorite shows and getting their grocery shopping done at once. So it's a real win-win. And and it's also, you know, I think from an advertiser standpoint, exciting because again, with Roku, if you have somebody who's watching an ad and shopping on Instacart, again, you have that ability to really start to close the loop in terms of the incremental impact of those ads as, as evidenced through Instacart purchase data.Damian: (13:01)Could you say a little bit more about how that gap between CTV and shoppable ads is closing? I know we touched on that earlier in the conversation, but how has Instacart as a media platform really enabled this kind of connection?Laura: (13:14)You know, I think brands often struggle with attribution from top of funnel, and this is something of course, you know, even when we're going out with top of funnel, it's hard. It's, it's a harder measurement journey than, you know, click-based ads. Um, and so our closed loop measurement is able to offer that higher confidence in media buys. And so being able to actually measure the impact of off platform ads and see that born out in, in the data from Instacart and showing the incrementality of those ads has been really huge for our advertisers.Damian: (13:53)What would you say will be a good example of how that discovery at the top of a funnel and performance with shoppable ads kind of merged?Laura: (14:00)A great example of that was our partnership with AB InBev this year, um, in the lead up to the Super Bowl. And so we were able to partner with Michelob Ultra and they were the first partner to create an Instacart co-marketing campaign that leveraged this shoppable capability via a QR code. We were able to really support them in this full funnel campaign that was running across linear social C-T-V-O-T-T and making sure that for every time they were out there with a brand message, there was a clear path to conversion for that consumer. What is so exciting about that is that for us, we get to show up with a brand that people absolutely love and really have a, a strong use case for of course, um, beer and, and football as we all know, go very well together. Um, and for them there was the ability to drive consumers to purchase and to really, you know, go from watching an ad to being able to have that product delivered in as fast as 30 minutes.Laura: (15:06)That's actually really game changing and I'm so excited when I think about what we could do with that. And especially when you start to layer in other channels like CRM and social and the ability for that kind of concurrent consumption connected to an entertainment event, I think could be really game changing. And we're seeing this really starting to pay off. So in Q3, our advertising and other revenue was up 19% year over year, and this is really driven by stronger than anticipated advertiser spending. And when we think about next year, we're really excited to continue to show up in these key seasonal moments, whether that's cold and flu, football, spring cleaning, or Mother's Day.Damian: (15:44)That's interesting. Do you have any brand campaigns coming up in 2024 that you are able to talk about?Laura: (15:51)We are currently shooting a really great set of spots against the cold and flu season. Uh, it's funny because it's not the most glamorous time of year, so, you know, when we were initially talking about showing up with a campaign, I was a little bit like, oh, is this really how we wanna show up as a brand? But then when I thought about our value proposition, which is really taking care of that COO of the household, and these people are caregivers and we help them take care of themselves and their families. So we're excited to lean into that moment and hopefully tell some stories that really resonate with consumers and and with our brand partners.Ilyse: (16:30)How do you think about the evolving Instacart brand looking towards the futureLaura: (16:37)From a brand identity standpoint? We've got an amazing foundation to build equity with from a brand storytelling standpoint. We've got an endless trove of stories to tell because every day in the life of a, of a busy household conductor is is full of those moments of trials and tribulations and moments where Instacart can really come in and, and help offer that care for that head of household. So I think that in the year ahead, we've got a great year ahead of us and a ton of momentum from a brand standpoint and only made stronger by the strength of our retailer and CPG brands when we show up together in the market.Damian: (17:19)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse: (17:25)The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Festi.Damian: (17:34)And remember, theLaura: (17:35)Really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on.Damian: (17:50)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm eis and I'm Damien and we'll see you next time.

BBDO created the iconic Snickers “You're Not You When You're Hungry” campaign. The agency's President and CEO, Andrew Robertson, breaks down the power of humor. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian: (00:04)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we sit down with Andrew Robertson, who has been the president and CEO of BBDO Worldwide since 2004.Damian: (00:19)No doubt over his career, he's had a bird's eye view of creative trends in the ad industry. And last year he gave a keynote presentation in the Palai at Cannes Lions and why humor is one of the most effective tools in advertising.Ilyse: (00:32)And yet he pointed out that funny ads have been on the decline for 20 years. He reminded the crowd that having a laugh is also good for business.Damian: (00:42)Since that talk, Cannes Lions has added a humor category to its awards for 2024. Maybe we have Andrew Robertson to thank for that.Ilyse: (00:58)Before we start, we thought it might be a good idea to take a listen to some recent funny ads, starting with this one from T-Mobile starring Bradley Cooper. And of course his momAd: (01:10)Does T-Mobile really have a 5GAd: (01:12)America's largest 5G network. Try it again. OhAd: (01:15)My God, you look like a flamingo inAd: (01:17)This. Okay. The America's largest, largest five network network. How can I help you? Hi, how are you? , can I help you? You'reAd: (01:26)Making me crazy.Damian: (01:27)And here's a bit from Workday's. Big game spot titled Rockstar featuring. You guessed it. Real rock stars like Kiss Front man, Paul Stanley, Joan Jet, Billy Idol, and Ozzy Osborne.Ad: (01:39)Hey, corporate types. Well, you stop calling each other rock stars. You'reAd: (01:42)A rockstar. You are a rockstar.Ad: (01:44)Rock stars, please.Ad: (01:46)You know what it takes to be a rockstar. I've trashed. I rums in 43 countries. I was on the road since I was 16.Ad: (01:53)I've done my share of bad things. Also your share of bad things.Damian: (01:57)And finally, we are big fans of Liquid Death here at the current. Their latest dad takes a bold and unconventional approach to raise awareness about plastic waste on the planet. And it does this while making a smile and cringe all at the same time.Ad: (02:12)Thanks to our proprietary and somewhat pain-free surgical method, a sexier planet begins with a sexier you.Ad: (02:22)Now I'm practically oozing with beauty.Damian: (02:26)Thanks. Liquid death.Ad: (02:28)Now we can use old plastic bottles to enhance anything. And I mean anything.Ilyse: (02:34)Oh my gosh. Ouch. , that's a good one. Well, the good news is there's plenty more funny where that came from, but let's hear from Anju first.Andrew: (02:44)I gotta be honest. When I made the proposal in the presentation that there should be a line for humor, it was really only to get another joke into the presentation. Um, but that was really the only reason I did, did it. However, I'm really thrilled that they have gone ahead and done it. That was a turning point. I think it was a turning point in terms of the work that was getting awarded at Cannes. I think it was a turning point at, in terms of the work that was being entered. Um, and I think my, I think my presentation was just, you know, the right thing at the right time. It was something I wanted to get off my chest. And judging by the response from the audience and the feedback I got subsequently, it was something a lot of people wanted to hear at that moment.Damian: (03:30)Let's go back to your presentation a little bit. I I loved it. You kicked it off with this fantastic story about when you first learned that humor sells. I, I wonder if you wouldn't mind recapping a bit of that story.Andrew: (03:43)When I was, uh, a student, I had a number of kind of part-time gigs. And one of them was selling vax vacuum cleaners door to door. And for those who don't know, it was a very powerful vacuum cleaner developed by a dairy farmer who adapted one of his milking machines. And it was by far the best suction you could get out of a, out of a vacuum cleaner. But they were bright orange and they weighed like 90 pounds and cost 300. It was a difficult thing to sell. It was a difficult thing to carry, frankly, from door to door. But I learned, I learned a couple of things. One was that sometimes, um, when people believe that what they've got is good enough, you have to find a way to dramatize the fact that it isn't. And in the case of the vax vacuum cleaner, the thing that worked, the thing that could convert people was if I could show them that something they thought was really clean was in fact full of dirt and that vaxx could solve that for them.Andrew: (04:38)And by far the most compelling demo of that was to vacuum their bed, their mattress. 'cause everybody likes to think their mattress is really clean, but it, but with a vax vacuum, the mattress, and you just get all sorts of terrible stuff coming out of it. And if I could get to that demo nine times outta 10 people would spend the 300 pounds and, and buy the bright orange machine. So I used to like, I'd ring the doorbell and nine times outta 10, the door would be open by a woman. And I was standing on the doorstep and I would say, my name's Andrew Robertson. I'm presenting the Vxx Vacuum Company. Can we go up to your bedroom? And most of the time they laughed. Most of the time they laughed. And then once they'd laughed, we could then have a conversation where I'd say, well, I really do want to go up to your bedroom because I want to show you just how powerful this vacuum cleaner is. And, and most of the time it worked. But the point I learned was that, um, overcoming resistance to your cell is, is really important. And the best way to do that, the best way to disarm people and to make them like you, is to make them laugh.Damian: (05:45)You had some kantar research that showed a steady decline in the use of humor, not just the last five years, but over the last 20 years. What does the data show about why humor declined? I suppose?Andrew: (05:56)I mean, there could be a load of things. I think one of the, one of the big trends across that period has been the emergence of the importance of purpose, brand purpose. Um, and I think that that along with that has come, um, a belief and I, but it's a belief that I don't share that, uh, if you have a serious purpose, you should find a way of bringing it to life in a serious way. Um, and, and I think that may account for some of it. Uh, there's certainly, if you look at the data drops in the use of humor in advertising according to that Kantar data during the, um, global recession in 2008, 2009, and then again during the pandemic. And I, I think that is a result of people believing, you know, these are difficult times and people are having a really rough and we need to make sure we're not tone deaf and we need to, uh, we shouldn't do anything funny because it's, it's not appropriate. It's a logical thought process. It's just not true. And I think what happens is when you have those step changes like we had in 2008, 2009, the level drops and then it, and then it doesn't come back up again. Those I would say are the two most significant moments.Ilyse: (07:15)But do you see it coming back now?Andrew: (07:17)There's actually some pretty good data about what's happened in the last six months and how many more humorous ads are being tested. I'm hopeful that it can be revived.Ilyse: (07:27)That's great. I mean, I think everybody is down for a laugh these days. Um, but would you say it's also good for business?Andrew: (07:34)90% of people will say that, um, they're more likely to remember an ad that is funny. 80% of people say they're more likely to recommend a brand that is funny. 91% of people say they want brands to be funny. And 72% say they would choose a humorous brand over the competition. And that's all kind of claimed behavior. And it's not surprising if you think about the way we are as human beings, if you make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, that's an experience that're going to remember. And when your brand is next presented to them, that's what they're gonna draw on.Ilyse: (08:12)One of the reasons you say that people have an inhibition around humor is that it's not compatible with purpose-driven messaging. But you found that not to be the case.Andrew: (08:23)It's important for brands to have a meaningful and relevant purpose. The flaw in the logic in my view, is that necessarily that means that when you try to bring that purpose to life or talk about it or dramatize it, uh, you have to do so in a very serious way. You can have a really serious or really important cause or purpose. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it in a way that's going to, people are gonna find amusing. I I showed an example of, of President Obama. He was the president of the United States, pretty big job. Uh, his signature legislative achievement was the Affordable Care Act. And there was a, a website that was built by the government so that people could take advantage of this and it didn't work. And his way of dealing with it was not to do an earn speech about it. His way of dealing with it was to do a funny or die video. That was really, really funny. That's a great way to apologize. It's a great way to say I'm sorry. And when he did that, it was watched by, I think it was 40 or 50 million people. But, but the more important fact is that the number of people who went on the site went up by 40%.Damian: (09:31)I'm wondering, can we make the case that humor builds engagement no matter which channel it's on?Andrew: (09:36)You know, this fundamental point that if you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more. A few years ago I was in LA and I was due to come back to New York and I got a text message from American Airlines. It's one of the best things I've ever seen, which is not a sentence I expected to say about a text message from American Airlines. But the text message said, you may want to pack an umbrella. We're expecting storms tomorrow. Flights will be delayed and some may be canceled. If you can, you should probably travel on another day. And all of the technology and data that's necessary to ensure that that bit of information, very, very relevant information got to me in the palm of my hand at the right time, right message, right time, all of that technology is great. But if it hadn't been written the way it was, instead of smiling and feeling good, I would probably have been angry. 'cause if it, if the same information was, you know, all caps, weather alert, uh, storms expected on East Coast delays, likely my reaction would've been completely different. I would've been angry instead of which I was smiling. I did get delayed. I then got diverted. I was sitting on the runway in, um, Dulles for, for three hours and I didn't get mad.Ilyse: (11:07)There's really an arc to it.Andrew: (11:09)Yeah, I mean, I, I would, I would challenge that assumption. I don't think it matters what medium you are consuming or probably what situation you are in. Maybe with a couple of extreme examples, if you can get somebody to laugh and feel good, they are going to thank you for it. That old expression of laughter being the best medicine there is, is true. That's true. If you can make people laugh, they will feel better and they will thank you for it. By, in our case, buying your brand, how you make people laugh, the topic, the content, the idea that you bring to life that creates this feeling, what you build that around is, has to be handled very sensitively. What I'm arguing is that no matter what state of mind people are in, if you can find a way to make them smile and laugh and feel good, they're gonna thank you for it with their business.Ilyse: (12:06)What would you say is the funniest campaigns that you've worked on?Andrew: (12:10)You are not you and you're hungry for. Snickers is a campaign that's that's rooted in making people laugh. Um, it's, you know, running in 83 countries, it's in its 13th year, it's been outrageously successful for the brand.Damian: (12:24)Is that a negotiation between, you know, you as the creative and, and the the client? Do you talk about the style, the content and whether it should be funny? Does that come up or is that sort of an organic process?Andrew: (12:36)The key to making something funny is you have to under, you have to understand the premise. And there are cases where that humor is generated around premises that people might understand, but just not like the fundamental point of if you can, if you can create a premise that people understand you have the launching pad for something that could be humorous. That's true everywhere. It's an organic process, it's an organic process. And if you have something that makes the client laugh, the client will laugh. Usually the same way as the audience will laugh if something's funny. It's funny. And getting people to recognize the value of it is sometimes a function of getting them to experience it. The bit that gets complicated is when people are arguing about whether something is funny or not, it takes ingenuity and creativity. And sometimes I think the bigger problem is, is not that people don't want to do something that is funny, it's that what they do isn't actually that funny.Damian: (13:41)Do you ever get to a point where , you know, you've got the final asset there and it's like, Hmm, it's just not that funny? Or does, does that ever happen? Or does it get that far?Andrew: (13:49)Yeah, it does. It, it does happen. And when you're testing the work, you're not testing, is it funny or not, you're testing whether the audience is going to engage with it, find it memorable, and it's going to make them feel something that makes them wanna buy your brand. The humor is the means to the end. It's not an end in itself, but yeah, it does, it does happen where somebody's like, ah, it's just not funny. Uh, or it's not funny enough. You know, there are writers' rooms working on, on Seth Meyer's jokes every night. I mean, there's 10 people sitting around a table trying to come up with something funny for him to say, 'cause he's gotta be funny for an hour. And that's a lot of jokes that you need. So it takes a lot of creative minds to come up with them. Fortunately, we don't have to fill an hour usually, but it's still, it's still harder than, it's still harder than anybody imagines. And if you doubt that for a second, just try and write something funny yourself. Just try and write even when you know the format, try and write a Snickers commercial. Try and try and write something funny for Snickers. It's, it's harder than anybody imagines.Ilyse: (14:52)Would you say there are some categories that lend themselves to humor more than others?Andrew: (14:57)I don't want to accept the principle that, that there are any categories in which it couldn't be used. I think companies and individuals may choose not to, but I, but I, I find it hard to believe that it, that it really couldn't be used.Damian: (15:22)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Jesse Poll, the head of brand and marketing for Major League Soccer.Ilyse: (15:29)The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and CatDamian: (15:37)Fessy. And remember,Andrew: (15:39)If you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more.Damian: (15:53)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien andIlyse: (16:05)I'm Elise.Damian: (16:06)And we'll see you next time.

As the presidential race picks up momentum, The Current Podcast explores what a political campaigner and a CPG brand marketer can learn from each other. Kyle Yadon-Smith, (the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee), and Vinny Rinaldi, (the head of media and analytics for The Hershey Company), get candid about marketing politics and chocolate.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler: (00:10)This week we are queuing up a great conversation between two advertisers who may not on first glance seem to have that much in common. We're joined by Vinnie Ranaldi, the head of media and analytics at the Hershey Company, and Kyle Yadon-Smith, the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. That said, we thought it would be fascinating to hear what a big CPG brand like Hershey can learn from a major political advertiser like the NRSC. And since this is an election year, what better time to host this conversation. It's been said that every great political campaign rewrites the rules at the same time, CPG brands can now supercharge campaigns with retail data. With all that in mind, let's get to it. Both of you, of course, are focused on reaching those respective audiences, whether you call 'em consumers or voters. I'd love to hear from both of you, you know, on what you think you may have in common.Kyle Smith: (01:09)I was gonna joke, the uh, the biggest thing is, uh, we're both targeting, so we're women I think is our key marketplace. the cycle . Um, obviously that's not the only, uh, demographic that's gonna be key on the political landscape, but, uh, we're gonna be running ads in October and so we're gonna screw up your Halloween marketing. Thankfully you guys do not have a, uh, Georgia runoff this year, so it should be okay by Christmas. And uh, yeah, I think we're gonna be targeting a lot of the same consumers slash uh, voter demographics. So it's kind of, it's, it's interesting how that kind of plays out. Yeah,Vinny Rinaldi: (01:36)I would agree. I think there's more correlation. I think, you know, we're looking at the same content areas to show up in as a brand to sell chocolate as you guys are, to show up and influence somebody to devote one way or the other in those big environments. You know, a lot of how we look to show up is how do we drive seasonality in local markets at a certain store? So you're right in October, believe me, it's probably hot topic number one of like the lead up to our Super Bowl October 31st. There's a serious presidential election happening a week later. Yeah. So how much will that play a role when we're buying, you know, market-based ads? So it is an area, I wouldn't say of concern, but an area that we're certainly focused on of like how do we make sure we're showing up in the right markets during our most precious time of year, but being cognizant of some of the headwinds we might face based on what's happening in real time.Damian Fowler: (02:28)It's interesting, you know, you're sort of talking in a way about competition between say chocolate and political campaigns, but on the other hand there's a sort,Kyle Smith: (02:35)I think we would lose that one if you had to vote on one or the other. .Damian Fowler: (02:39)I mean, of course there's an alignment too. I mean maybe you guys can, you know, get together and cross-reference here.Vinny Rinaldi: (02:45)I mean, I joke as we look at all of the debates leading up to it and one of our products is popcorn. How do we show up and say, get your popcorn ready for all these new events that are happening. So can you bridge that gap and kind of work together? There's a lot of areas of, ofKyle Smith: (02:58)Interest. Politics is pop culture now, right? Yeah. Like I'll never forget, one of the funniest ads I saw was, I think it was Advil, they bought the promoted tweet on the first day of the debate in 2016 and it said, do you have a headache from this debate, you know, by Advil? And I thought that was kind of a fun way to play into it.Damian Fowler: (03:12)What's interesting to me is, you know, in looking at say any given political campaign, how the importance of being reactive in the moment kind of real time is so crucial, you know, for getting those swing voters out to either vote or just to nudge the needle a little bit. And I'm wondering, you know, if that idea of the sped up data-driven campaign is obviously influencing the way CPG brands like Hershey think about campaigns,Vinny Rinaldi: (03:38)I think we certainly use data-driven tactics in a very similar way. And you think back to the last, I guess it's 16 years since the 2008 election, which is crazy during that election when, when President Obama won, you know, it goes a little unnoticed of how he won the tactics he used, which were way ahead of his time in a lot of this, using the data, focusing on different demographic urban environments, getting those people to the polling centers, like we're trying to do the same thing during, whether it's a big season or to dry everyday occurrences, like how do you find those pockets of incremental opportunities to grow from the beast that's already there is very correlated to from when President Obama did it to President Trump doing it in 2016 and really becoming a more data-driven tactic on how you show up in those moments.Kyle Smith: (04:26)I mean, it's kind of funny, both Obama in 2012 and uh, president Trump in uh, 2016 both had a actually almost similar data strategy. They're both very digital heavy in from a percentage perspective for their time. And then of course nowadays we actually can't use that data on quite a few platforms. So data's extremely important in the political space. Obviously there's, uh, 60% of Americans over the age of 18 are gonna vote this cycle and a lot of those folks are gonna vote for the same party they've always voted for. And identifying people that, you know, swing back and forth is the key to winning, obviously. And that coalition changes every cycle. For us, it's leveraging the data to inform what that audience looks like so that we can make tactical data-driven decisions, even on platforms that don't let us use it directly of which, you know, is the bulk of the ecosystem at this point. It'sVinny Rinaldi: (05:08)An interesting point. Like we as a big massive consumer packaged goods brand that sells chocolate, has no first party data. We have to talk to everybody. Literally 98% of the um, US population eats candy mint or gum. So for us it's like how do you balance, you want scalability no matter what, but what are the right insights and data points that you utilize when you go to activation? Because if you're trying to find one-to-one in any second and or third party data partnerships in some platforms, not all, you're losing the findability due to some of the privacy regulations that are coming up. So if you don't own the data asset itself in a first party ecosystem, it's a lot harder to deliver that experience. And it's also a lot harder to collect first party data when you're a brand that everyone else sells your product. You're just driving demand through advertising and awareness and driving people to the store. But from a D two C perspective where a lot of that collection can happen, it's a little bit more of a challenge on our end to be able to sell chocolate and collect a data 0.0 for those people.Damian Fowler: (06:08)What's interesting to me about this is according to a study by the Trade Desk with Morning Consult during the 2022 midterms, 75% of all Americans surveyed who say they might vote in the midterms, say they know who they're gonna vote for. So I don't know from a political standpoint, do you market to those people or is marketing always at the margins? You know, are you always trying to reach out to that undecided voter? And I wonder if that carries over into CPG thinking as well.Kyle Smith: (06:33)I actually think this may be a space where things are more similar than they are different. You know, if you've bought Hershey Kisses every year for Christmas and you, your family's always done that and you always, you know, put that in the stalking, you're probably gonna continue to do it until something shifts or something changes. There's pretty high retention, right? In terms of Republicans from 2016 are very likely to be Republicans again, 2024. But things do change, you know, the people will always tell you, they say they know who they're gonna vote for today, but then there could be a new story that drops at some point next year that scrambles everything. You know, it changes people's opinions on issues, it changes how people think about things and we have to react very, very quickly to that and make sure that, you know, if the story's good for us, that everyone knows about it or if the story's bad for us, that we have our point of view out there to, to kind of counter what the information is. It's kind of hard to expect who those people are gonna be or what's gonna trigger that. So I think that kind of leads to the importance of talking to everyone and making sure that you kind of have a broad message out there. But we also know our folks that are, you know, Republican donors donate or vote in every single election that are probably on our team. So it's kind of just, uh, doing a little bit of both.Vinny Rinaldi: (07:30)Yeah, you look at Reese's Peanut butter cups, they have a 64% household penetration. I'm not sure there's any single brand out there that comes as close. So if you think about it, you, you're almost everywhere. So you're constantly speaking to everybody and hoping, you know, in those moments you're getting that incremental gain for a new household conversion and or, or repeat purchaser. So you do want to talk to both. You're also looking at probably one of the more impulsive categories in the world. Chocolate is a grab and go. You're at the counters, you're just grabbing, you don't plan it. So you always have to be, broadly speaking, making everyone aware of subtly nudging that reminder message to almost everybody.Damian Fowler: (08:08)Given that then, you know, does that mean a lot of your campaigns tend to be about, you know, just brand awareness kind of up there at the top of the funnel? And then how do you use channels to nudge the consumer? How, how does that work? ,Vinny Rinaldi: (08:22)In very basic theory, yes, we are a very big awareness brand messaging strategy to have fun. You know, we lean heavily on the voice of Will Arnett, which is the voice behind the Reese's commercials. So like, it is that probably where, but then you have, whether it's a limited edition or a seasonal environment or some other area where you wanna be a little bit more focused, where you would lean into some sort of targeting capability, whether it's a retail based target, third party, purchase based target. How do you use all those levers to take some of the spend and be focused while the majority of your base spend is reaching that broad awareness of the entire population?Kyle Smith: (09:00)Yeah, I think that's where, you know, I'm a little bit jealous of Hershey's and you have all this institutional brand ID and I'm, we're jealous of the starting point, especially, you know, I'm working on the, I'm working on senate campaigns this cycle. The NRC, we only have really two incumbents, meaning like people that are already senators running for reelection, again, Ted Cruz and uh, Rick Scott in Florida, they kind of have a really strong starting point they can focus on more, just reminding folks that kinda like you, I feel like you guys do every site or every year we're Hershey's, we're Reese's also. I'm jealous you get will learn that, but we're we're, we're Reese's what we are, et cetera. But then on our side we have a separate project of a lot of new candidates that no one's ever heard of that frankly haven't held elected office. And you have a year and you know, three or four months to make their name Id as close to a hundred percent with the voter base as you can. If uh, Trump were president it was 2020 and everyone kind of knows who these guys are. It is kind of more similar I think to the annual, uh, yeah, candy marketing. But this, this year it's uh, we have to start from scratch. It's like you guys introducing a new brand, I feel like, or a new skew of, uh, of, you know, Hershey's, Reese's, et cetera.Vinny Rinaldi: (10:00)We just launched uh, Reese's Caramel Cups and it is like launching a completely new thing even though it's part of the Reese's family. Yes, you're gonna have those loyalists try your new product, but can you attract new consumers into an already built brand because of a new introduction of caramel into a peanut butter cup? You have to find those new pockets of opportunity to not lose your base or not have them switch completely and keep that cycle growing with new consumers.Damian Fowler: (10:26)One of the things that's happened, uh, in the last couple of years, we talked about, you know, what happened in the last four years is the kind of rise of, there's much more inventory out there for streaming platforms, connected television, and that connecting the dots up with, you know, other channels. I wonder if you could both sort of talk me through a little bit of how that, the maturing as it were of CTV has changed the way you go to market and think about connecting up big awareness plays on CTV to, you know, lower down the funnel to more performance driven tactics.Vinny Rinaldi: (10:56)You know, as I go back to what I said earlier, the proliferation of content everywhere has certainly opened up the purview of how to show up, how to be everywhere. You know, for me, when I think about the connected TV landscape, what I love about it is the ability to buy prime time at any time. When you sit down at eight o'clock or nine o'clock or 12 o'clock or 3:00 PM it doesn't matter. You're accessing whatever content you wanna watch in that moment. So in my opinion, when you buy this way, you've got primetime moments at all times. That person is decided they're gonna sit down, they're gonna, you know, watch whatever it is that they wanna watch at that given moment.Vinny Rinaldi: (11:47)And that's your moment as a brand to show up and that's how we look at it. And then when you take that holistic approach to those primetime moments, how do you then use the controllability of technology to control, reach and frequency? So if I know that I'm talking to this person in 12 different platforms, well I don't want my frequency to be a 40 on one of 'em. I want to control that and keep extending reach. If I get enough reach, my household penetration should go up. If that goes up, my sales are going up, we're winning share, we're reaching more consumers, like that's our end goal. So being in as many homes as possible is actually impossible if you're buying on 40 different IOs or platforms. So then when you think about consolidation and the value of bringing somebody from an awareness building tactic and streaming or on the big screen all the way through a funnel and having that control allows me to unlock more business outcomes than any media measurement can give me.Damian Fowler: (12:42)I'm wondering if what the equivalent of business outcomes are in the political ad marketplace.Kyle Smith: (12:48)Um, well if we win.Damian Fowler: (12:51)I thought you were gonna say that. Kyle Smith: (12:52)Yeah, I, I , I think, uh, I actually think this is where also uh, you know, the candy and CPG world in general is, it's pretty similar to political land is um, our outcomes also a little bit impulsive. I remember standing in line, you know, to vote for the DC City Council with a few of my coworkers before and we were all talking like, who are these people? , you know, it's like we don't know who anyone we're voting for. It's kind of funny. And then you kind of re look at 'em real quick. You remember like stuff you've heard or mailers you've gotten and you make a decision that you have one day to do that or one month to do that. And that's our moment. That's when you get your conversion. That's kind of how I'd compare the two there. I think from a high level perspective, we have the exact same problem in politics, especially with linear, where we have very high frequencies against some audiences sometimes.Kyle Smith: (13:28)And when you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you're, you have less money then to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers. So having an ever-present point of view across not just linear but also digital, I think that's something that our party especially is gonna try to get a lot better at this cycle. It, it's interesting to me that 20 12, 20 16, I think, and Vinny told me if this is wrong, I think the corporate world almost looked at politics and was like, wow, they're doing some really cool stuff. We have to figure out what they're doing. I think that's kind of taken a step back a little bit now that we've gotten into the, you know, we have to target older Americans 'cause older Americans are more likely to vote. And I think now as older Americans, habits have changed quite a bit from 2020 to 2024, it's forced both political parties to kind of adapt a little bit after frankly the corporate world has uh, to what the new landscape looks like.Damian Fowler: (14:11)You know, speaking of different audiences, are there different channels for different audiences? Kyle, when you said, you know, reaching older Americans or all older voters, I'm wondering if that's still like a linear play now or if that's completely, am I just stereotyping a whole demographic?Kyle Smith: (14:26)Yeah, well I watch Wheel of Fortune every other night, so I, I maybe I, maybe I'm breaking the demographic there. . Yeah, I, I think linear is still the utmost effective mass reach, uh, mechanism for folks 55 plus, especially broadcast. It's pretty easy to get over 75% reach across that audience, uh, with a couple of weeks of linear buys. What I will say though is even older users are starting to shift pretty substantially. Especially, you know, in the last couple of years when I used to do my YouTube pitches, I always told, told the story of my father-in-Law who is a huge Elon Musk fan and watches a lot of documentaries about him on YouTube. And I would walk down one day and he's like an hour or two of this documentary that some college kid put together about, about how he's making rockets or whatever. They do a penetration across all the different age groups. And I do think that we're gonna continue to see a shift away, especially from cable time spent on cable and towards the streaming services, whether it's YouTube or or more of the down funnel servicesVinny Rinaldi: (15:15)As I stated earlier. You know, we reach everybody with a mouth. So every demographic needs to play a role in our media, both strategy spend, investment strategy, that's everything. Kyle, you kinda hit the nail on the head. It's what's happening between those environments is what's the shift what we're seeing. And I think the industry's seeing more and more, if you remove live news and sports from linear consumption, you're gonna see a drastic drop off in actual consumption habits. But you know, when you think about the purchase power right now, it shifted a little bit into the millennial group who are the bigger purchases, which is 71 million US people. We talk about Gen Z a lot. It's like, oh, they're the up and comers, they're people we have to talk to, but they're, you know, the people we don't have to spend that much time on, they're 68 million of them. So they're almost equivalent to a millennial generation. So we're gonna just wait for them to become purchasers. And I think that's a miss. So you've gotta show up in the moments or platforms that those consumption habits are happening by demo and then show up authentically to that audience so it's not, forget about one versus the other. It's how do you repeat the holistic picture across every platform and then deliver a communication strategy that resonates with those different audience groups. That's how we're working towards showing up across every platform.Kyle Smith: (16:34)And that's what's, that's so interesting to me. It's like the purchasing power in our world is a little bit different. You know, like in terms of voter people that actually vote, well one kids under the age of 18 cannot vote. So there's zero purchasing power. And I, I know that, I mean at least when I was in marketing school they, they taught us about how kids do have purchasing power, uh, when it comes to telling their parentsVinny Rinaldi: (16:51)They have influencing purchasing powerKyle Smith: (16:54)But in our world, you know, the, if you look at the millennial generation, you have a much higher voting percentage than it was 10 years ago. But it's still not anything close to 55 plus glad that we have the purchasing power in the millennial generation now though.Vinny Rinaldi: (17:06)I think it's that 13 to 18 group that's so key for us. As I said, the influencing power, everything, especially in our category, has become on demand. So I have the ability at 13 to use mom and dad's credit card tied to a DoorDash account and I'm gonna gain for the next five hours and I'm gonna order a bunch of things from seven 11 as we move into the future, five to 10 years from now, most of that generation will become now the voters but they don't wanna leave their house or they don't wanna go outta their way to go do something 'cause everything has come so easy to them by using a phone. How does the voter landscape change from either written ballots or in person to a truly secure ability to vote and get more buy-in into voting for a generation that is very used to just opening something up and hitting a buttonDamian Fowler: (17:59)We're throwing to the future here. Yeah, I mean Kyle, I dunno, what do you think, uh, do you think we're gonna get to that point?Kyle Smith: (18:04)I think Covid kind of changed the voting rules in a lot of states that make it easier to vote. I don't know if we'll ever get to the instant gratification level until, you know, maybe 50, a hundred years from now when we're voting on a blockchain and you get a vote coin and you spend it somewhere or something like that. So the convenience factor matters a lot and then it changes by state and almost by locality, right? If you live in a rural area and it's hard for you to get to the polling place 'cause it's a 10 mile drive versus it being half a mile down the street when you're dropping off your kids to school, that could make a difference as well. So it really just depends.Vinny Rinaldi: (18:35)I think that's really interesting because each state is adopting their own voter rules sounds very similar to each state adopting their own data privacy rules instead of thinking of a national basis and actually simplifying the ease for everyday people to utilize something. It's fascinating that we all continue to live by state, by state governed rules that are drastically different than just a national governing body to allow us to have a centralized ruling system to use, whether it's data privacy or voter rights. It's just, it's funny to watch that correlation between our two worlds.Kyle Smith: (19:09)Even sugar taxes, you know, some of the cities, I don't think it's gone after candy quite yet. True. But the uh, you know the Bloomberg rules around like the taxing soda and stuff and I think Philadelphia did it and then the sales increased outside of the Philadelphia like urban area like substantially for all those stores because you're able to get cheaper stuff. But that's interesting.Damian Fowler: (19:26)Kyle, you mentioned harder to reach audiences and I want to ask both of you, you know about that and how the programmatic marketplace makes it possible to reach those harder to reach audiences. I know at the top we joked about suburban housewives but you know, how granular can you get,Kyle Smith: (19:43)What is it 95% of people watch video whether it's linear or digital. So that does get you to a pretty high threshold the way I approach it. Like we have to deliver messages very quickly, right? So that's why I think you see political really lean into linear a lot 'cause you could get that mass reach in a day if you're buying the football games. Like if you're buying, you know, primetime on across all the all four networks and you have a presence there, you're gonna get to 50% reach pretty quickly. I think the hard part is honestly the other 50% on CTV and making sure that you're distributing that message to the person the one day a week they happen to be watching ad supported Hulu and they're not watching Netflix for example. That's where it gets more difficult. Having the centralized approach, making sure that you're maxing out the non-linear household reach if you're already buying a lot of linear is, is the hardest and most important thing that we have to do. We'll have maybe eight to 10 messages per candidate that we run and we want all eight to 10 of those messages to be seen by as many people as possible and we don't have as much time. I wish I had, you know, one or two month long campaigns that I could run behind these things to get that reach number, the incremental reach as high as we possibly can. But in reality it's, it's seven to 10 days. We just have to maximize thatVinny Rinaldi: (20:46)For Reeces. Again, reach everybody, everybody with a mouth, everybody wants to buy a Reeces, great. But then I go again down the portfolio, you've got variety brands in York peppermint patties, almond Joy, mounds. And so like how do you take those with much less spending power and find those pockets of opportunity? You know, for your, give you an example for York, one of the really cool unlocks we found was the snowbird effect sales actually increased 'cause York leans very heavily 55 plus really 65 plus and you see Northeast sales in the summer skew higher and then southeast sales skew higher in the winter and you're seeing the people as they move the consumer habits follow with them. So how do you heavy up in those markets during the seasons? So when you don't have a large bucket of money to go spend as a brand, you use data and insights in that way to be like really targeted hyper-focused on winning those key occasions for that consumer. Because again, at the end of the day you can only stretch a budget so far if you want to grow a business.Damian Fowler: (21:51)Fascinating that. So just to wrap it up, I guess I wanna ask each of you one question, you know the same question Kyle, what do you wish you could take from CPG land and Vinny, what do you wish you could take from political?Kyle Smith: (22:03)For me it'd be like two things. Like I think the permanence of the institutions. You know, you have the same kind of folks that'll work in marketing, the same agencies that run things for years, if not decades. Sometimes that makes it so that you have a lot of like earned experience and a lot of, you've gone through all this several times, you know what works, what, what doesn't. And I think kind of an informed approach every time politics is, you know, you have to start from the bottom and you build something up and then election day happens and that institution basically doesn't exist anymore and you have to start all over again for the next two years. So that'd be the first thing. And I think with that comes the advantages of being able to have more predictability. We don't have a ton of predictability in politics.Kyle Smith: (22:37)It's tough to know what my budget's gonna be. It's really tough for me to know what the news cycles are gonna look like next year without kind of that knowledge going in without knowing how much money you have, it makes it harder to do long-term planning. That's where I'm a little bit jealous of CPG land kind of wish, you know, knowing what your budget is a year and a half out I think would be awesome in our world if we were able to say that with certainty. But you know, it makes us scrappy and it makes it so that sometimes it's better than you expect and you get to have fun with it and sometimes it's a little bit worse and you just have to be smarter than the other guy.Vinny Rinaldi: (23:02)I would say almost the opposite in a way because I feel the marriage of branding and performance is so important to not separate the two, but to bring them together and the agility that the political landscape moves with is actually a blessing in disguise. Pricing aside the hyper target ability, the ability to show value really quickly is something that we lack because we don't own the end game. So like there, there's a part of that that's like, okay, well if you can be that hyper-focused and get a really quick outcome, how do you build that into a small percentage of your spending in the overall portfolio to be super agile, super hyper targeted, really focused on market analysis and then correlated to sales or in your case outcomes from an election. That to me is super exciting. It's something that we sometimes strive to do. You know, we used to have this motto that we're still trying to build out, but like, act like a CPG, think like a D to C, we don't own the end game, but how do you think really agile but come with the power of being a CPG. So I think what you bring to the table from a political landscape gives us just a little bit there to think about of like being super fast, nimble, and agile in a marketplace that changes so fast.Damian Fowler: (24:17)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce. And remember,Kyle Smith: (24:30)If you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you have less money than to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers.Vinny Rinaldi: (24:37)Act like a CPG, think like a D to C.Damian Fowler: (24:40)And if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damian and we'll see you next time.

Barbara Shipley, senior VP of brand integration at AARP, discusses on The Current Podcast the risk of perpetuating myths associated with older generations.   Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. DAMIAN (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.ILYSE (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.DAMIAN (00:04):And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.ILYSE (00:10):This week we sit down with Barbara Shipley, the senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. TheDAMIAN (00:17):A A RP is the nation's largest non-profit nonpartisan organization, which is in its own words, dedicated to empowering Americans 50 and older to live their best lives. It's taken great pains to assure people that it's not about silver haired grannies and granddadsILYSE (00:33):To be sure it's building on a tremendous legacy that started back in 1958. But as the perception of aging has changed in that time, so has the organization and its messaging. The A A RP is on a mission to debunk the myths about growing old. One of the ways it's doing this is by investing heavily in digital marketing in a world focused on youth. Barbara talks to us about what's unique about the A A RP demographic,BARBARA SHIPLEY (01:04):So we totally understand why people have a focus on Gen Z millennials. Um, let's be honest, there's definitely an obsession with youth, not just in this country, but all around the world. I think what's important for people to remember is not to put generations against each other, but to recognize where the customer base could be and potentially take age out of the equation for just a second, think about what your brand is, what your marketing, what your bottom line is, and then who makes the most sense? And in most cases, your marketing team, your brand team, your strategy team is going to zero in on people, 50 plus, they don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging, is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.ILYSE (02:22):Just how big is that spending power, I guess, of that demographic? And then basically, how should brands think about this audience?BARBARA SHIPLEY (02:30):In the US alone, you've got 110 million people over 50, and the fastest growing audience is people over 85. So that is something to celebrate. Now, in a youth, and you could say youth obsessed, but in a youth focused environment, it's hard to pull people's attention over to the power of the 50 plus audience. But when we talk to brands and marketers in the industry and say, $8.6 trillion, they stop and listen, that's a lot, that contribution that the 50 plus in the US alone makes to the US economy each year.ILYSE (03:15):Now, the A A RP was founded 65 years ago in 1958. How has your organization changed to reflect the values and the needs of the demographic that you now serve?BARBARA SHIPLEY (03:27):The biggest way a A RP has changed is we are still extremely proud and focused of the, on the work that we do to help retired senior citizens, but that is not all we do. So if you think about an organization that is focused primarily on the 50 plus their families and their communities, how many 50-year-old people do you know that are retired right now or even thinking about retirement, they may be planning for it. I have to say I hope they are, because if you're not planning for it by the time you're 50, that's gonna be a challenge. But retirement could be 20 years away. And so A A RP has adapted it's content, it's programs, it's services, it's products, it's community outreach, it's volunteers to really address the way people are aging today, not just the way they aged when their parents or grandparents were going through their lives.DAMIAN (04:26):In addition to changing the programming that you have, um, how has the narrative changed in terms of your marketing, in terms of your campaigns? Now, I know you work with BBDO to create this new narrative. Could you address that a little bit? SoBARBARA SHIPLEY (04:39):This longevity message that I was just talking about is really important and it, and it really became one of the big insights to this new narrative, as you say. So if you could spend or live half your life after 50, you want to make sure that your money, your health, and your happiness live as long as you do. It starts to capture in a really concrete way. Our role, the AARP's role, is as a wise friend and a fierce defender, we are uniquely equipped to help you make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. And the reason why it works so well as a marketing campaign is because of what I call the rug pull at the end, which is in fact, the younger you are, the more you need A A RP. And that has stopping power and gets people's attention because it is not easy to make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. But we are here to help you do that.DAMIAN (05:44):It's interesting here, you talk about this because that line in the sand of retirement, sort of mid sixties, uh, has always been there and as sort of as a sort of psychological threshold. And, and that's clearly changing, you know, not just in the United States, but everywhere around the world. And I know that one of the important focuses for you has been around the importance of work and not just work for people, you know, under 65. It's not about retirement anymore, is it?BARBARA SHIPLEY (06:09):So you're right, it's not about the traditional old book of retirement. So work has become one of the biggest areas for A A RP. And it, it, it's interesting when you see it at first, people can be a little bit surprised. Wait a minute, I thought you were about retirement. And very quickly they get to that moment where of course you're not just going to help me in my retirement years, you are going to help me in my working years as well. And we do have to be honest here, there's a lot of ageism in the workplace. There's age discrimination, which is even a more deeper legal issue. If you're over 50 and you need to work and you're outta work, it's a daunting task just to get an interview. So what we do is work with the environment that you're trying to succeed in, not just help you with your resume, which we do provide you a network, which we do connect you to a job board, which we do. But we are also communicating to the HR industry, hiring managers sectors, the creative industry to push and help people understand the power of the multi-generational workforce. There is so much power in the multi-generational workforce. The work is better, the experience is better, the culture is stronger, the learnings never end and it goes every which way. And that's why I'm so passionate about the multi-generational workforce, specifically in the creative industry and how powerful that can be for business outcomes for your clients and for the culture of your agency.ILYSE (07:50):Yeah, and definitely there is an ageism issue in America and not even to mention the marketing industry. Could you describe some of those like stereotypes and misperceptions that do show up in media and we, we still see,BARBARA SHIPLEY (08:05):On the one hand, if you're thinking about hiring an older person, a little bit different than you just asked, but if you're thinking about hiring an older person, the myth associated with that is they can't use technology. They're slow, they're always gonna call in sick. They're not really looking to work here for a long time. They're just marking time until they retire. False, false, false and false. This is a group of people who largely have accumulated so much experience and so much wisdom that they are going to right the ship when there is some kind of a crisis in the workplace, they are going to be the steady hand. They can be, um, a receptacle for learning, for teaching, for sharing. There are lots of things that people learn how to do. So there are some opportunities for learning, but let's create those opportunities so that we can get the benefits of people in the workplace.BARBARA SHIPLEY (09:05):In marketing. We still see brands, brands are really starting to get it right. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We're gonna take some credit for that, but we won't take all that credit. I think part of it is because a lot of creative directors at your agencies, they're turning 50 and they want to be relevant. They know their life experience and their talent is relevant. And I think that's part of where the new narrative in a lot of these ads is coming from. They're also, I think, looking at the realities of aging. They're looking at the research, the data, and they're seeing that people are developing their own stories, their own timelines. pe half of people in America that are 65 to today are still working. So to tell a story in an ad of people in their sixties with sort of blank stares, fumbling around technology, doddering fools only vulnerable, wearing beige does not tell the story of how people are actually living their lives today.BARBARA SHIPLEY (10:09):Now watch an ad for a restaurant, the older people, I bet you are background, that's not how it actually is, but that's how the ad portrays it because the younger hipper people are in the front, they are your OCPs. So let's get it actually the way it is because the danger of perpetuating these myths is twofold. One, your prime audience that has all the spending power is feeling ignored or insulted by your brand. And two younger people who come in contact with your work fear aging, that's a societal problem. And I would ask you and all of your listeners to answer the question, what's the alternative to aging? Everybody wants to age their way, which is why our mission is to empower people to choose how they live as they age.ILYSE (11:10):Now, are there any specific tools that A A RP turns to, um, to kind of bust some of those myths around those stereotypes?BARBARA SHIPLEY (11:19):So that's a great question because the tools and the concrete, um, opportunities are the best way to educate and change the environment. And I am so proud of the work that we launched about five years ago in a very special partnership with Getty Images. We have introduced a signature collection on Getty images that has grown to tens of thousands of images called Disrupt Aging. And the goal of disrupt aging is to, through imagery tell the more current contemporary real and varied stories associated with how people age. You see multi-generational images, you see images of people at work, you see images of people at play. They are not overly photoshopped, they are not overly beautiful. They are very real and it makes a huge difference. And to me, one of the most exciting things that I didn't even anticipate when we built this is the search techniques that we have introduced.BARBARA SHIPLEY (12:22):Instead of agencies searching for old people on the beach, we now are shifting the, the search, which means the input is changing. And the models are also really shifting how we think about the imagery that captures today's realities of aging. So the Getty images work is pretty radical. And then we also have all of the data from the usage that shows us what people are gravitating to and what they need. So it can be a very responsive tool, but it isn't enough. We need more tools in our industry and I recognize that I grew up in this industry, I grew up in the agency world. I know what it's like. The big problem I have with where our industry is right now is stop making assumptions about me because you know one thing about me, which is my age, nobody wants that. So this is what we need to break ourselves out of and stop putting everything through an age lens, which may it sound funny coming from an organization that is about aging, but it's about the freedom to choose how you live as you age and not be put into a box or a category or segment because of one data point.ILYSE (13:41):Now there's no doubt a lot of brands are getting it wrong still, but are there any brands that are doing it right?BARBARA SHIPLEY (13:48):Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you one example, which is Hyundai. And the story is taking the daughter to college and they're driving. So the Hyundai is the vehicle, and by the end of the ad you realize the daughter is dropping the father off at college, and you just have you, you're seized in this moment. I would say there's another narrative coming out of an interesting brand, which is indeed and uh, you see a story of, you know, the the sort of quintessential man carrying the box with stuff in it, which your mo your brain says to you, he's leaving the job, he's been fired, he's retiring. But what you realize by the end of the ad is he's a new hire and he's in his fifties and people couldn't be happier that he's there and he's happy that he's there and it's the new beginning instead of an ending. And that just captures everything about what this audience is actually going through. They aren't just nice stories, they're realDAMIAN (14:49):Speaking of perception. And I know that you have the A A RP magazine, which I understand is the world's largest circulation magazine, which has more than 47 million readers and across a broad age range, it goes back to that multi-generational approach that you've been talking about. You know, how does the magazine as it were, fit into the whole, you know, tapestry of everything that you're doing in terms of your marketing efforts and the perceptionBARBARA SHIPLEY (15:13):A A RP the magazine is one of the most exciting things we have. It's a lifestyle magazine uniquely focused on interests, needs, topics that the 50 plus, now that's a huge group of people, right? There is almost no such thing as a 50 plus segment. So we have a lot of elasticity in the A A RP magazine, you'll see a lot of health topics, you'll see a lot of sex topics, you'll see a lot of travel topics, friends, um, empty nest. There's so much that we are able to cover, but we do it with a really deaf hand. There's so much soul in the way we cover these topics and the way we do interviews with the a a-listers that really wanna be on the cover of the magazine. Um, over the years, uh, we've had actors, actresses, uh, musicians, uh, Michael J. Fox, lady Gaga, Henry Winkler was on the last issue. People don't throw it away, it's a keeper.DAMIAN (16:16):That is an interesting way of kind of gauging one's own aging in a way, in relation to these pop culture people that you've grown up withBARBARA SHIPLEY (16:25):Because these people are still relevant. That makes me still relevant. That makes you still relevant, not some memory of who we once were. This isn't just a group that likes nostalgia either. This is a group of taste makers. You are probably a taste maker. I'm gonna bet. And so you like new music, you like exploring new artists and a A RP sponsors a lot of music. We do a lot of virtual concerts. We do a lot of in-person concerts. We were a huge part of celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip hop. And I think that's why people recognize what we are bringing to the table. We don't just want to sit around and remember, but it's about where are we goingILYSE (17:06):Now, speaking about being like taste makers, A lot of people might be surprised to hear that you guys are so into social media. So curious about your approach there and and why it's an important platform to be on. Yeah,BARBARA SHIPLEY (17:22):We're very big on Facebook. Facebook is important to us, but so is TikTok. So is Instagram. I don't know anybody that really only lives on one social media platform. They go to different social media platforms for different things. And so we show up differently depending on where their mindset may be, their needs are. Our presence on TikTok is a little bit of an alter ego for a a RP. It's an opportunity for us to bring a, a different part of our personality to bear because that's what the users of TikTok are doing. Same thing with Instagram. We have really dedicated our presence on Instagram to capturing and telling and celebrating the story of Gen X in all its glory. It's all its craziness, all its forgottenness. You know, we used to call this the sandwich generation, right? You used to hear that phrase about people who are caring for aging parents and raising their young children, and they're sort of sandwiched in between.BARBARA SHIPLEY (18:15):We are concert goers and we are restaurant goers and we are travelers and we are caregivers. The average age of a caregiver is not a boomer or a Gen X, it's a millennial. And this is, this is a very big deal that people really need to recognize. And we are doing things that we never thought we would need to know how to do. And in many cases we need help. So there's, that's what I mean when I say that these are soulful stories. There is this isn't one dimensional or two dimensional. It's so multi-dimensional. And if people, marketers would just recognize that this 50 plus audience is basically giving everybody else a roadmap. Because what we are blazing, this is a trail, people will be going down basically if there's one message to leave here in terms of how our creative industry writ large reflects older segments, don't do it because it's charitable. Do it because it's good business. And oh, by the way, it's also a better way to engage with your audience and tell the truth versus be stuck in an old stereotype. This is a bottom line opportunity for agencies, brand managers to recognize who their audience is and engage them with their brand.DAMIAN (19:44):And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned and if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet.ILYSE (19:59):The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.DAMIAN (20:07):And remember,BARBARA SHIPLEY (20:08):They don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.DAMIAN (20:32):I'm Damian.ILYSE (20:32):And I'm Ilyse,DAMIAN (20:33):And we'll see you next time.

Booking.com's Chief Marketing Officer, Arjan Dijk, joins The Current Podcast to  touch on the post-pandemic travel boom and how data supports the company's omnichannel strategy, saying that 30 percent of his marketing team are “hardcore data scientists.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast. My co-host Ilyse Liffreing is away.Damian: (00:10)This week. I sit down with Arian, the senior Vice President and chief marketing officer for booking.com. Since it was founded in 1996 in Amsterdam, booking.com has grown from a small Dutch startup to one of the world's leading digital travel companies. The company's stated mission is to make it easier for everyone to experience the world. Part of Booking Holdings inc. booking.com is a truly global company available in 43 languages. And with more than 28 million accommodations listed, Arian joined the company in 2019 and overseas marketing efforts worldwide. As such, he's responsible for all initiatives across the marketing funnel from brand social performance and innovation. We started by talking about this omnichannel approach.Arjan: (01:03)The role of marketing is to accelerate momentum. Uh, so you have to be very, very, very thoughtful where you invest and when you invest, because if there is no momentum in the market, it doesn't really make sense to really spend a lot of money and and convincing people to, to spend money. We look at more than 200 countries in the, in the world and we're really looking like, okay, what's going on in that country? Are we really sure we should weigh in or not? And especially during the pandemic, you can imagine this was kind of a daily, uh, monitoring, uh, because things moved very rapidly and you had, you had to deal with lockdowns and then suddenly demand would drop, uh, completely. And booking.com with my team, we've been able to manage through that in a very flexible mindset. And I think that flexible mindset is still helping us right now.Arjan: (01:51)'cause we're really looking very carefully like, oh, does this work? Oh, yes, it works. Let's invest a bit more. Invest a bit more. Okay, now it's enough. Now we go into other channels and I talk a lot about the role of different channels. So I personally always hate the difference between brand marketing, performance marketing. Uh, one of the key things when I started at the company almost five years ago is that, is that we would report separately on our performance marketing spend versus brand marketing spend. I'm like, you know what? Let's not do that anymore. Uh, it's the same money it should perform. And clearly when you work in what we call low intent channels, you have different objectives. Yeah. So low intent, our channels like pr, social media, general, TV advertising, all those kind of good things, but they drive awareness and consideration. They don't necessarily drive an immediate booking where we also work in other channels where it's more about immediate booking.Damian: (02:44)It's very interesting to hear you talk about looking at that data from all these different markets you are in. I mean, how do you stay on top of that? It sounds quite strategic and quite data-driven.Arjan: (02:55)We are very data-driven. I do think that anyone in marketing now nowadays needs to be data driven. And you know, you can imagine that I have a, a big marketing team, but I can assure you that probably 30% of them are kind of hardcore data scientists. And these are people who are day in, day out will look at effectiveness of our campaigns and then report back and say, Hey, we expect that actually this to happen. But it didn't. And sometimes results are very intuitive and sometimes results are not very intuitive. And I think being honest about that is very important.Damian: (03:25)In 2023, we had a little bit of a resurgence of optimism in the economy after 2022, and it seems that business travel is back in popularity. The summer of 2023 saw record numbers even from even before the pandemic. I'm wondering from your perspective, how has booking.com experienced this post pandemic travel surge? Is that predicted to continue?Arjan: (03:47)Yeah, so one of the great learnings I think from the pandemic is that people have just this amazing desire to travel. That's exactly what it is about. You know, like each of us, you know, you probably will agree, is that when it's holiday time, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. I'm, I'm going away in a different environment. I'm experiencing different food, different people, uh, different weather, et cetera, et cetera. So the Pandemic was a huge confirmation of travel just being an enormous part of people's life. And of all the things that you experience in your, in your life, supposedly only 12% you actively remember. Uh, so, uh, from everything that you experience in your life. And the reality is that probably those trips you've made, those special trips, that wonderful Weekend to Paris or that amazing time in in Wyoming, those are the things that you remember. And I think travel plays really a, a big role. You could argue that the experiences almost are more valued than material, uh, possessions, uh, because what is better than a, a wonderful experience. So that was a huge confirmation of what we probably intrinsically already knew. But you see that especially after the pandemic, there was a thing, uh, called revenge Travel. You might remember that term. Other people were like, you know what? I don't care. I'm getting out of here.Damian: (05:03)I'm curious to get your perspective on how you're using that data. We've just talked about Antech, you know, to personalize that user experience and, and the way you kind of focus on the different types of travelers within your marketing efforts.Arjan: (05:16)What we try to do is make it easy for people to book, uh, with us, but then also book again. And we have a program called a Genius program that really makes it more interesting also for the more casual traveler to book with us. You know, when you stay with us a little bit more, you go up a level and there are actually three levels that you can, uh, can achieve. And that means you can get a little bit more benefit. I do think that the mindset around business travel has changed significantly after the pandemic. Uh, I look at myself before the pandemic, I would jump in a plane for a meeting of two, three hours. Now Aari will say, can I do this on a Zoom callDamian: (05:49)From the US perspective, I know you're the official partner of the Major League Baseball League here and um, latest campaign features Ken Griffey Jr. And last year the Brand Somewhere, anywhere campaign featured Melissa McCarthy, which debuted during the Super Bowl, which of course is nearly already sold out for 2024. I'm wondering, you know, how does booking.com pair sports lovers with what your overall strategy is? What do you, how do you think about that?Arjan: (06:16)I do think as a brand, it's incredibly important that you're part of the zeitgeist. Uh, and if you look at where people are spending their time and where their passions lie, sports play a huge role. I think the top 10, you know, most viewed television programs will all be sports. That's kind of the reality of today. And so that, that if you want to reach a mass audience that is engaged in an area that is very much in the zeitgeist, you cannot ignore sports anymore. Mass reach has become actually quite, quite difficult. And we really believe by being part of tournaments where people are really passionate about their sports will really show up. Well. The key aim in the US is also that people know us as, uh, a brand that's very good for outbound travel. Yeah. So if you want to travel outside of the us but we also want to really reiterate, hey, we're a brand that's also fantastic for domestic travel, and we have a little tag line is that says where, where there's how I said where, where there's baseball, there's booking has gone.Damian: (07:13)And then I guess, you know, you are align with different sports in different markets. Obviously Europe must be, we have to say the word soccer, but Europe is soccer, right?Arjan: (07:21)Yeah. So, uh, we're proud sponsors and we have been of ufa, which is a big deal, you know, live stops in Europe. Uh, so when, when the major games are on, you know, you can probably, uh, skate on, on, on a highway because you know, there is no traffic. But we also have done ICC crickets, which if you're not into cricket, you're like, what is this? But I can assure you there are more than a billion people passionately care about, uh, a cricket, especially in India, Australia, uh, South Africa, uh, the uk. Uh, so those are markets where cricket is immensely popular. We're also, were proud sponsors of the FIFA Women's World Cup. So I I was very happy with that. 'cause you see also that that sport is really increasing so dramatically and wonderful to be part of that.Damian: (08:06)And you mentioned how sports are being fragmented across streaming platforms. Does that complicate your efforts when it comes to marketing, or do you just have to be more tuned into that omni-channel approach that we were talking about?Arjan: (08:19)We really care also about the kind of communal moments. Yeah. So what are the times that you're sitting with your friends or family and you are watching together? And when you show up in those moments, we think it's really powerful. The strategy of showing up in more individual channels is more kind of a one-on-one approach, uh, where you are on your phone or you're on your computer or you're on your iPad watching something that interests specifically you. But being part of those kind of communal moments, we really care about that.Damian: (08:50)Booking.com is owned by Booking Holdings, which owns a host of other, uh, websites including priceline.com, a goda.com, kayak, cheap Flights, rental Cars, and OpenTable amongst others. I'm wondering, you know, what's the synergy like between the companies when it comes to marketing? Is, is the same data applied across all brands? WeArjan: (09:11)Operate quite independently, and that's on purpose. Uh, I'm a, I'm a strong believer in kind of healthy competition. Uh, so, so really keeping each other honest, being very focused on our very specific segments of the market. And with a goda price line have, we're addressing a more specific price conscious, uh, segment in the market. Booking at com is a little bit more for everyone. Kayak is clearly in a very specific industry. And the same for OpenTable. We meet every month. So I meet with the heads of marketing of, of every brand once a month, and we really talk through our marketing strategies and really, of course, try to learn from each other.Damian: (09:45)Are there any specific challenges or obstacles you, you've encountered when it comes to implementing this omnichannel strategy? What, what are your kind of main challenges?Arjan: (09:55)We have a slightly different model probably than most companies is that, uh, we have very strong relationships with a couple of key ad platforms and we do that direct. Uh, so we don't really have an intermediary, we don't have an agency, so we work directly with Meta, Facebook, Instagram, we work directly with YouTube and, and, and Google. And that approach has, in my perspective, big advantages. It also has clearly disadvantages that you have to staff up and you have to really understand, you know, how things work and you need to be able to manage the technology.Damian: (10:27)Booking.com operates in over 208 countries and you know, you're talking about strategies across all those different languages, cultures, regional preferences, and presumably, you know, economies are different as well in different parts of the world. How do you sort of manage all of that?Arjan: (10:43)The key thing to, to realize is that there's also a lot of commonality. And so, so you shouldn't underestimate that wherever you are in the world. We're kind of all human beings and we kind of all do the same things. And the joke I often make is that if you think of a romantic dinner, so imagine you are in Japan or you are in Columbia or you're in North America, romantic dinner is a romantic dinner. It generally involves two people. It generally involves some nice food and and drinks. And it generally involves a nice table with people seated. Uh, there, it generally doesn't involve loud music, it has kind of soft music. You could argue that of course a romantic dinner in Japan. It's very different to Columbia. But there are also lots of commonalities. And what we are trying to do is really focus on the kind of commonalities that were set up in our campaigns in the right way, from a measurement point of view, from a data point of view, from the way we go to market.Arjan: (11:39)And then suddenly we're, we're actually very effective in tailoring our language, our messages to someone in Japan versus Columbia. But the fundamentals are intrinsically the same. One key thing I really care about is truth telling that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives. And the position we have in people's lives is, you know, what we're the best at just getting it out of the way. Book that kind of great place and 1, 2, 3, you are done. And that's the reason we're also using booking.com booking. Yeah. 'cause yeah, it's that kind of positive feeling of, hey, it's out of the way.Damian: (12:22)I read an interview with CEO Glenn Fogel in the FT actually talking about AI and how the company's preparing for the AI era. And he said something along the lines of AI can take the friction out of holiday planning. I'm wondering if that's a focus for you from the marketing seat that you are in.Arjan: (12:40)Generative AI clearly has many aspects. Uh, so, and Glenn is really talking about the traveler experience, really making sure we take the friction out of everything and that we more or less are able to predict much better what your next step would be based on, you know, on those models. I do think that in marketing specifically, there is probably also a huge productivity opportunity by using generative ai, be it in how we do our performance marketing, but also how we develop, uh, creatives. Uh, we're experimenting with AI generated videos that we're putting out on, on, on YouTube that are very tailored to very specific searches that people are doing on, on YouTube. I really focus with my team also on that kind of productivity side of it. Uh, can we really make, again, every dollar work a little bit harder using smart technology?Damian: (13:32)Are there any other emerging technologies or trends? Uh, I mean, one thought was the focus on sustainability, for instance, that will have an impact on future omnichannel marketing efforts.Arjan: (13:43)The interesting thing is that as any company in the world and especially a company in travel, sustainability is clearly something you have to just obsess about. It's something that is really important and I talk a lot about purpose. Uh, what is the purpose of, of our company? What is the purpose in in our marketing? And I really see sustainability as kind of, kind of foundational you would expect from any reputable company to really care about this and that we each contribute to, uh, helping improve sustainability in, in the world.Damian: (14:19)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Barbara Shipley, senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. A theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Ley and Cat Bessie. And remember,Arjan: (14:37)One key thing I really care about is truth telling at that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives.Damian: (14:54)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien and I'll see you next time.