The VBAC Link

Lauren joins us today from New Jersey sharing her wild ride (literally!) to a VBAC! Lauren's first birth was a spontaneous labor ending in a crash Cesarean under general anesthesia at 39 weeks due to fetal distress. Though she was complete and tried pushing, baby was still high and showing that he needed to be born right away.She prepared diligently for a VBAC by listening to multiple VBAC Link Podcast episodes a day and included her faith every step of the way. Her second birth was a precipitous VBAC at 36 weeks after falling days earlier— ending in an unmedicated VBAC in an ambulance! It was not what she expected, yet everything she wanted. Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

”This VBAC has changed who I am as a woman.” Proactive preparation matters in birth!!While we don't want to obsess about it in an unhealthy way, prep work can make a huge difference in your birth experience. Chelsea is an amazing example of how that prep pays off. After a very long, exhausting 40+hr labor and Cesarean birth, Chelsea knew she needed a different experience the next time around. Chelsea took charge of what she could during her second pregnancy. She did deep internal work, vigorously prepped her mind and body, educated herself, and invested in an empowering birth team. Her intuition led Chelsea to birth at home, and it was a completely different experience from her first in so many powerful ways!Chelsea's Podcast: Growing Up Raising UsNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Andrea joins us in the podcast today from Kansas City! She is a mom of two and a pediatric oncology nurse. Andrea shares how her experience as a nurse impacted both of her very different births. After her traumatic Cesarean, Andrea knew how critically important it would be to find healing inside and out before giving birth again. Andrea sought EMDR therapy from a therapist who specialized in birth trauma. She describes her experience with EMDR, including specifics about the process itself and the exhaustion that came with it. She says that even though healing is HARD work, it made all of the difference during her second birth.Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Trish Ware is the Labor Nurse Mama! As a high-risk labor and delivery nurse for 16 years and mom of 7, she has helped deliver thousands of babies and seen it all. Trish founded The Birth Experience to help empower women through birth education. Her true passion lies in teaching families how to make informed choices. You will NOT want to miss this bold episode. Trish and Meagan do not hold back as they share the things they have seen in the birth space, what they wish birthing women/partners knew, and how to avoid common pitfalls to achieve the most empowering birth experience and outcome possible.Labor Nurse Mama WebsiteNeeded Prenatal Vitamins: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are celebrating a HUGE milestone over here: 400 episodes of The VBAC Link Podcast! Beginning as a phonecall in Target from Julie Francom to Meagan Heaton in 2018, The VBAC Link Podcast now has over 1.3 million episode downloads, guests from all over the world, a management and production team, parent and doula education courses, a thriving social media platform, and a legacy of stories from YOU that have allowed VBAC to be accessible more than ever before. Your stories have provided the inspiration and education to show women just how many options there are when giving birth after a Cesarean. Whether it is VBAC, HBAC, CBAC, VBAMC, RCS, MAC, or anything in between, it has been a privilege to connect with you and learn from you. We love you, Women of Strength!Coterie Diapers: Use Code VBAC20 for 20% OffNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katelyn is a mother of three beautiful daughters with three entirely different birth stories. Her first birth was a Cesarean after three forceps attempts, her second was a scheduled repeat Cesarean, and her third was a long, tough labor ending in a successful VBA2C! Katelyn talks about making sacrifices to switch providers, spirituality, prodromal labor, nuchal hands, and how to navigate a home birth transfer to the hospital. Though many parts of her VBA2C didn't go as she planned, Katelyn was able to listen to her intuition, pivot, and make wise decisions to have a beautifully healing experience. The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C Facts and StatisticsUterine Rupture ArticleNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“The wound can become a gift.”After a traumatic and long birth that ended in a C-section, Ramieka did extensive research on providers in the central California area to find the most supportive option, and was willing to travel for that support. She utilized pelvic floor therapy, chiropractic, and a VBAC Link Certified doula to achieve a redemptive, unmedicated VBAC.Julie and Rameika talk about what doulas can contribute to the birth space. When Rameika had a stall in her labor, her doula knew just what to do. After a series of abdominal lifts, it was time to push, and her beautiful baby girl was born. The VBAC Link Blog: Evidence on DoulasTVL Blog: Mental Preparation for VBACTVL Blog: Questions to Ask Your Provider Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Jen Fraboni, PT, DPT, is an internationally-renowned physical therapist who specializes in helping people overcome chronic pain and maximize physical performance. As the founder of the new platform and app, “Jen.Health,” she brings a unique, whole body approach to strength, mobility and pain-free living.  Dr. Jen is the co-host with her husband, who is also a Doctor of Physical Therapy, to a popular podcast called "The Optimal Body Podcast.” They live in Southern California with their two beautiful boys. She shares her own VBAC story with a failure to progress diagnosis with her 7-pound first baby, and an unmedicated VBAC with her 9-pound second baby! Though she had some postpartum complications, Dr. Jen says that her VBAC was absolutely worth it and so empowering. Dr. Jen also teaches us all about the pelvic floor and how pelvic floor PT can help a smoother and more effective pushing phase!Dr. Jen's WebsiteNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Darby Swan is a faith-based birth doula and the owner of Boundless Grace Birth Services in Central Kentucky. With a passion for supporting expectant families, she provides evidence-based information and nurturing care throughout the pregnancy and birth journey. As the host of the podcast "Birth By Design," Darby shares valuable insights and experiences, inspiring parents to embrace their unique birth stories. She is also an author, writing a postpartum book that emphasizes physical recovery from a faith-based perspective. In addition to her work, Darby enjoys homesteading with her husband and raising their two children.In today's episode, Meagan and Darby discuss the lack of birthing support in Kentucky, specifically when it comes to VBAC. They talk about the power of words in the birth space and the impact of saying things like ‘“try”, “failure to progress”, “allow”, and elect”. Words matter!Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

From a very unexpected pregnancy to navigating a challenging first birth experience, Shannon joins us today to share the steps she took to achieve a successful VBAC. Shannon describes pregnancy with Ehlers–Danlos Syndrome and insufficient glandular tissue (IGT). She was able to seek support and get the proper progesterone supplementation with her second pregnancy to help with her breastfeeding goals. Though she hadn't had a prior history of high blood pressure, Shannon was medically induced at 38 weeks for high readings. With the help of her incredible doula and a patient team, Shannon was able to make wise decisions around her induction plan. Her labor was over 48 hours, but she pushed for just 30 minutes! Even with some tearing and postpartum hemorrhaging after birth, Shannon has been thrilled with her VBAC outcome and postpartum recovery this time around.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Doula DirectorySupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Meagan welcomes Zoei back to share her inspiring VBAC story with twins! Zoei's first birth was a Cesarean followed by a VBAC with a singleton pregnancy. Her first two birth experiences gave her the confidence to advocate for her VBAC with twins. Her four babies were all born within four years. Zoei talks about how she was able to carry her twins longer than most, the added anxieties from more ultrasounds, advocating for a low and slow induction, and what it was like to push in the OR. Meagan and Zoei discuss misconceptions surrounding vaginal twin births, the lack of evidence-based information, and the importance of finding supportive healthcare providers. Episode 205 Zoei's First VBAC Link EpisodeCleveland Clinic Article: Twin PregnancyThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC With TwinsNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are celebrating the week of TWINS by revisiting Jill's beautiful twin VBAC story from 2019. This episode is packed with valuable statistics about VBAC and twin pregnancies. Jill's first birth was a C-section due to failure to progress. Her second was a hospital VBAC at 39+5 over the course of 4 days with a very patient and supportive provider. When she found out she was pregnant with twins, Jill knew she wanted to stay with her same provider. Though she was encouraged to be induced, Jill advocated for spontaneous labor and had a smooth, uncomplicated twin vaginal delivery! The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC With TwinsRisk of Uterine Rupture ArticleCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Julie welcomes Sophia from Mexico City, who shares her mental, physical, and spiritual journey towards achieving her VBAC. Sophia discusses the challenges she faced in navigating the healthcare system in Mexico, and what she did to find a truly VBAC-supportive provider. While preparing for her VBAC, Sophia had a hard time finding well-documented VBAC stories from Mexico, so she hopes to inspire other women through her story. Sophia and Julie talk about the role of a mother's intuition in the birth space. Making confident decisions when you feel safe and supported is so powerful!Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Julie Francom here with you today, and I am super excited to talk with our guest today, Sophia. She is from Mexico City, Mexico, and her VBAC story takes place there as well. I absolutely love hearing birth stories from all over the world, so I cannot wait to hear Sophia's story. But before we get started with that, I do have a really short and sweet Review of the Week. This one is from Google. It's a Google review and she says simply, "Great people sharing great information. They make me feel less alone in my journey to a VBAC". I'm so grateful for that review. I think that that is one of the most important reasons why Meagan and I wanted to start The VBAC Link is because our own journeys felt very lonely at times even though we were connected to the birth world and we had a strong birth community, there are certain parts of wanting a vaginal birth after having a C-section that are just very, very lonely. We are grateful for that review. We hope that whoever is listening now also feels a little less alone in this journey because we absolutely love you, and we are so grateful that you are here with us.All right, let's get going. I have Sophia here today. Like I said, Sophia's from Mexico City, Mexico. I'm just going to sit down and be quiet and listen because I have heard lots of really interesting and crazy and cool things about Mexico City, so I'm excited to hear her birth experience there. Sophia is the mother of Luca and Rio. I just said that. I'm just reading her bio right now. She says,  "I'm a Mexican and live in Mexico City." Perfect. She is a passionate advocate for women's rights and strongly believes in the magic that results from women building together, connecting, and supporting each other. Her motherhood journey has been very humbling and healing, and she is obsessed with talking about birth. Me too, girl. I am obsessed with talking about birth as well, so I'm excited to hear your story. I'm just going to go ahead and let you take it away, and we're going to talk.I'm sorry. I said I'm going to let you take it away, but really, I'm going to keep talking for just a second. I loved reading through your story, sharing about your birth team and prodromal labor and the different things that you did to keep labor going and moving along. I am really excited to talk at the end after we hear your story about some different things that you can do to prepare for a VBAC, both mentally, physically and all of the ways. So now for real, I'm going to let you go ahead and share your story with us. Thank you.Sophia: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's truly a dream come true to be here in the podcast. I'm just really honored to tell my story because, when I was starting to prepare for my VBAC, I found it really hard to find well-documented VBAC stories coming from Mexico and in general, from the global South. So I just hope my story helps other women living in similar contexts. So I guess I'll start with the story of my unplanned C-section. So half a year after my husband and I got married, we were ready to have kids. We met on Tinder. We dated for three years, and both of us really had had the opportunity to travel the world and do amazing things. We felt like we had a good pre-kids life, and we were just ready to start a family. I was 34 at the time, and I always wanted to try to get pregnant before I became 35. I got pregnant really fast actually, like the first try. So we were so shocked and excited and surprised. At the time, we were both working remotely in Europe. We were slowly making our way to Australia because my husband is from Australia. This was 2021 and as some of you might remember, Australia was under super restrictive lockdown. No one could come in. No one could get out, so we had not seen his family for three years, and we were just waiting for the ban to lift to be able to go in and spend some time with them. This is an important part of the story because while I was in Europe, especially in Belgium and in Australia, my pregnancy was taken care of by midwives. Especially in Australia, it's really normal that all healthy pregnancies are attended by midwives, and only those special cases or complicated ones are taken by gynecologists. So my pregnancy was a really healthy, enjoyable one. I am one of those women that really loved being pregnant. I was very lucky with both of my pregnancies. But this experience was so influential because in Mexico, although we have this wonderful history with midwives in Spanish called parteras, and that's actually where the use of Rebozo comes from, this practice continues mostly in rural and particularly in indigenous communities. But in the cities, there is a really concerning high rate of unnecessary Cesareans. There's this narrative that C-sections are the easy way out. I would even dare to say, in the 80s, it became sort of a socioeconomic status thing. Women who have access to private healthcare would just opt for a C-section either because their doctor recommended it to do so or because they just thought it was the easy way out. People would say, "Why would you put yourself under unnecessary pain if you can just go get a C-section?" Like it was nothing, right? So actually, most of the women that I know had a C-section, but having the experience with midwives, I decided I really, really wanted to try to have a natural birth. So I started getting informed. I actually work in philanthropy. I work on social justice issues, so I'm very well connected to feminist and women organizations, especially in Mexico City. I remember that there were all of these colleagues working to defend obstetric rights in Mexico City. I knew that they had a really good network of doulas. It was through them that I connected remotely with my doula, Neri Fernandez, who is amazing. We spoke on Zoom, and we clicked right away. She started preparing me for my return to Mexico. The plan was always to come back to Mexico during the third trimester so I could have my baby here. She started preparing me with the reality that it is to have a natural birth in Mexico City. She told me, "Honestly, there are very few truly labor-friendly hospitals and also very few labor-friendly gynecologists. A lot of them are going tell you that of course they're gonna support you in a natural labor, but around week 37 or so, they're gonna suggest going on a C-section by week 39." So, she gave me this list of questions to ask my gynecologist, the one that I had been seeing for the past five years. So she told me, "Once you get back and you go to your appointment, just use these questions for your conversation with him." At the time, I was very naive, so I was like, oh, I'm sure he's going to support me. I'm not worried about that. Anyway, I came back to Mexico, I went to my appointment, and honestly, in the first five minutes, I noticed that he wanted me to have a C-section for no reason. So I was like, oh, my god. Okay. So I told her, "Neri, I really need to contact another service provider." She gave me a list of labor-friendly doctors. And she told me, "There's this doctor whose name is Adriana. She is a gynecologist. But the way that she works is very similar to a midwife, the way that she treats her patients and the way that she respects the woman's body and everything. I think you're really gonna like her, but you should know that she can be a little bit tough. She's a hardcore feminist, and she truly believes in women's capacity to give birth, so she's not going to pamper you." Anyway, I went in. I met her. I loved her right away. She took me, which I was so appreciative, at the time, taking my case because I was already in my third trimester, and things continued to evolve smoothly. I mention this because since I got pregnant really easy, since everything was going smoothly, that's what I thought it was going to be in the case of my birth. I just thought that things were just going to develop like that.Julie: Oh my gosh. Can I just say that I thought the same with my first? I had the easiest pregnancy. I loved being pregnant, just like you, and then all of a sudden, wham-- preeclampsia, induction, C-section, and I was like, what happened? Yeah, anyway, sorry. I just had to add that in.Sophia: I think it happens to a lot of women.Julie: Yes.Sophia: So anyway, week 40 arrived, and there was no sign whatsoever of labor. And one mistake I made is that I told everyone about my due date. I'm an open book. So I told everyone just out of excitement. But then once the due date passed, people started reaching out, like, "Hey, how are you doing? Is baby here yet? Is everything all right?" That really threw me into a bad mental state. I started to get really scared and doubtful. I was just not mentally well at that time. I was just full of fear. I didn't accept it at the time. I was telling everyone that I was fine, but internally, yes, I was in that state. And now also thinking back, I think I prepared myself a lot physically. I have been practicing yoga for 10 years. I was doing a lot of prenatal yoga, etc., but I don't think I prepared myself mentally enough. Anyway, after week 41, Adriana, my doctor said, "I think we have to start discussing the possibility of an induction. Maybe by week 41.3 we can do a very gentle induction unless something else happens." I think two days after we spoke, I lost my mucus plug, so that was exciting, but then nothing was happening. Then we were almost at week 41.5, and she said, "I think at 41.5, I should induce you." But the night before the induction, I woke up in the middle of the night with a very intense feeling. I went into my living room. I sat on my birthing ball, and my water broke like a big gush like the movies. They tell you that's never gonna happen, but that happened to me. Contractions didn't start. But at that time, I didn't realize what this meant. I didn't know that this meant I was actually going to be on a clock after my waters broke. So I was actually very excited. I thought, okay, by tomorrow, I'm going to have my baby. This is amazing. I told my doctor. I told my doula, and they said, "Okay, well, no matter what, just come here to the birthing center."At the time, my doctor had a birth center, and the plan was always to labor there and then go to the hospital when I was closer to giving birth, because I just feel safer that way. And that was the plan with my insurance, etc. So I went the next morning to check me, and I was only at 3 centimeters. So she told me, "I'm going to recommend that you just go back home. Rest. Eat your favorite food. Try not to think about this too much, and when things escalate, just let me know." The problem then is that nothing escalated for a whole day when I went to sleep. And that night, I didn't sleep out of excitement mostly, but I was already feeling some contractions. I mean, I thought they were intense, but little did I know that they were not the most intense part. And then the second night, I also didn't sleep because now I did start getting contractions, a bit stronger ones. So the next morning, I went back into her practice. She checked me, and I was about a 5. And she said, "Things are progressing, but they're progressing quite slowly, so I'm going to give you a tiny dose of Pitocin just to make sure that things keep progressing." I stayed there in the birth center, and I was with my husband, and I was with my doula. And honestly, I remember that day very fondly. My husband and I danced. We used the shower. We used the Rebozo. We just the ball, the peanut ball and everything, but things were not progressing. It was 7:00 PM, and I was only at 7 centimeters, and we were already reaching 40+ hours. And as you know, once your water breaks, I mean, at least in Mexico, they recommend that you have your baby within 48 hours because otherwise you start risking infections. So I told my doctor, "I just want to go to the hospital. I need a change of scenery, and it's just gonna make me feel better." So we went to the hospital. The hospital did have this birth pool. I went into the water and just things stalled. I didn't progress after that. This whole time, they were checking my baby's heart rate, and it started raising a lot, like, scary a lot. It wouldn't regulate. Fear just took over my body, I think. She looked at me and she said, "Sophie, I think I'm going recommend that we go for a C-section." I looked at my doula, and my doula just nodded. I was so tired and so ready to meet my baby that I said, "Okay, yeah, let's go for a C-section." Once I decided that, it was the longest 40 minutes of my life because I thought, "Oh, well, I'm going to get under anesthesia now." But the anesthesiologist took an hour to get there, so I was in a lot of pain. Then we went into the OR, and to be fair, my gynecologist did everything possible to have a gentle Cesarean. We had dim lights. We had my playlist on. The whole focus was on me. Both my doula and my husband were with me. They were holding my hands. But the one thing that makes me sad about that is that I couldn't stay awake. I was so exhausted, so I was just asleep the whole time. I only woke up when I heard my son, Luca, crying. So exactly on week 42, he was born. I just remember someone in the OR yelling, "It's a huge boy." So he weighed 8 pounds, which is not massive, but for Mexican standards, he's really big. And Luca is a Taurus baby. He's determined, he's stubborn, and you cannot pressure him to do anything. He always does everything at his own pace, and this was just the first evidence of that. So anyway, luckily, he was okay. It was a rough recovery because I was just really not prepared for a C-section. It was challenging to get breastfeeding. He had difficulties to latch. It just took me a while to heal what had happened. But the one thing I do remember a lot is that when I was in my room, the doctor and my doula both came in and they said, "Sophie, we just want you to know that you and your baby are amazing. You did everything right. You just had so many things against you. But if you ever want to get pregnant again and go for natural birth, you can do it." That really stayed with me the whole time. So 18 months after Luca was born, my husband and I decided to get pregnant again. Again, we got pregnant the first try. I mention this not to brag about my fertility or anything like that. I know it's a sensitive topic, but for me, it was important because it was the first step to recover my confidence in my body and believe that I could really do this because once I started getting informed about VBAC, I realized that the healing I had to do was more internal. I really had to believe that I could do it. So I decided to stay with the same service providers, with the same doctor and the same doula, because they knew, they really knew my story. Well. And I called my doula, Neri, and I was like, "Hey, Neri, why are you doing this summer? Do you wanna have a baby with me?" And she was like, "Of course." Both my doctor and my doula recommended that I joined maybe like an online community of VBAC women. I had no idea what VBAC was. So then I found The VBAC Link website, the Facebook group. I took the VBAC class for parents. I found it so helpful. And for me, the fact that it was full of hardcore data, it was just so, so important. So in terms of physical prep, I tried to remain active, but I wasn't honestly doing as much yoga as before because I had a toddler. I was working full-time. I was running after my 2-year-old, and I really loved that my doula told me, "Don't get too stressed about working out. Just play with your kid. Play with your kid on the floor. That's going to be enough activity for you." I also really love that this time around, my gynecologist was not even telling me how much I weighed. I really loved that approach. It was just a really, really joyful pregnancy. Again, it was a healthy pregnancy. I did go to the chiropractor this time, which I didn't do last time. I also went to acupuncture sessions, and I did that the last time. I went with the same acupuncturist because I also thought it was good that she knew what happened before. I also took raspberry leaf tea and dates after week 36. So I did all of that physical prep. But what was different this time, I think it was my mental preparation. So as I said, I really, really tried to focus on healing internally, believing in my body, and believing in myself. So with my doula and also using the some of the guiding questions and stuff from the VBAC class, we started mapping out my fears. So she was like, "What are you afraid of?" And I said, "Honestly, I think what I'm most afraid of is that my waters break again before I start labor." So I remember asking in the VBAC Facebook group, "Hey, does anyone know anything about preventing PROM?" Someone suggested taking vitamin C. So I started doing it. And, this time, I felt so much more connected with my body, with my baby, with my intuition. At week 26, my baby was breech. And I remember asking again in the Facebook group, like, "What would you girls do?" And people told me, "You can do Spinning Babies. You still have enough time for baby to get in position, but it's always easier to move a baby when they're still small." So I did Spinning Babies, and my baby turned. So that was amazing. The other thing that is I consider being part of the mental prep is that I was also in a very different space, spiritually speaking. I am honestly not a religious person. I'm not the most spiritual person in the world, but this time I paid attention to a lot of signs. There was this one occasion that I was in my office, we were moving my office, we were moving to another place. And someone hired a shaman. Like a shaman, but it's an indigenous sort of magic priest because we all wanted to do some cleansing, like spiritual cleansing, before moving into the new space. She told me, "I don't do cleansing of pregnant women because it's not good for the baby, but I could give you a blessing". So I was like, "Yeah, of course." So she did this whole ritual. She told me, "You didn't have a natural birth before, did you?" I was like, "No, I had a C-section, but I'm trying for a VBAC." And she said, "I'm really certain that you're going to get it. I'm very sure that that day when you go into labor, your ancestors are going to be with you. I'm certain of it." And she also said, "There's something that characterizes you and has characterized you your whole life, which is having clarity and determination, Sophia, so this is not gonna be the exception." And she gave me this candle, and she told me, "Please, light this up when you go into active labor just to call your ancestors to be there with you." So I was like, "Okay, great." Then also on week 36-37, I had a nesting party. I invited a lot of friends over to help me prepare the house for baby. A friend of mine brought the tarot cards. She told me, "Do you want to pick a card?" And I was like, "Okay yeah, why not?" So I picked a card. That card was the card for strength. It was number eight of the major Arcana that depicts a woman taming a lion through the application of subtle force. That was so symbolic for me because it was strength. The picture really stayed in my head, and I had to think, obviously, about Woman of Strength. So there were all these symbols out there that just really put me in a very different mental state. So anyway, the day I went into labor, it was just one day before my due date. And this time, I didn't tell anyone about my due date. Only my mom and obviously, my husband knew. So one day before the due date, I started getting contractions. I had two weeks of prodromal labor, and I had that before in my first pregnancy, so I knew what it was. I mean, it can be so frustrating because you start getting prodromal labor, but it doesn't escalate, so you get sad. But I knew this time what it was, so I was trying not to pay too much attention to it and just continue with my life. But that day, I started getting real contractions. I knew that what I had to do was to go rest. I did do Miles Circuit. And anyway, I was pretty happy. But then 24 hours after, labor completely stopped. I was so scared of the story repeating itself, so fears started sneaking in. All the doubts. I started thinking, maybe natural labor is just not for me. I was crying. I was sad. I texted my doula and I said, "Neri, I'm just really bummed. I think this is not going to happen. I think I'm going to have a C-section again." She said, "Whoa, wait, I'm going to your house right now." She lives really close to my house. So in 15 minutes, she was here. This was at 8:00 in the morning of the due date, like week 40. And she said, "I think although baby is already engaged," because we knew it was already engaged, "I think it's not in the most optimal position, so I'm just gonna use the Rebozo." And we used the Rebozo. She told my husband and my mom how to use it. That was pretty magical. And then we also did a lot of Spinning Babies exercises. She said, "But aside from this, just try to relax. Everything's going to be okay." That day, I had my 40-week appointment with my doctor. I went and that was a game changer because she checked me, she checked my baby and she said, "Both of you are fine. Everything is okay. Please try to go home and relax. Do anything that makes you get oxytocin." She was like, "Why don't you go and eat or get a bath or eat cake in the bath?" And I was like, "Okay, that's a really specific suggestion, but why not?" So that made me feel much better. And she said, "I do recommend that you call the acupuncturist and tell her what's happening to see if she can give you an extra session." So I called my acupuncturist and she told me, "I'm an hour away from Mexico City because I'm teaching at a university, but I'm on my way there. I'm going to see you because I know you can do this." It was so sweet of her. She drove all the way here, she gave me a session and she told me, "I never do this, but I want to see you again. This was at noon." And she told me, "I want to see you again at night. Come here at 8:00 PM, and I'm going to give you an extra session that is specific to help baby get in a good position and to descend."So I was like, okay. So I went home. I actually came back and went to listen to Meagan's because I remember that she had a story of failure to progress. I listened to that episode. It was so helpful. So then I went back to the acupuncturist at 8:00 PM, and during the session of acupuncture, I felt a super strong contraction. Because what had been happening is that my contractions were intense, but they were really short. They were only 30 seconds. So when I was there, I knew that was a minute or longer. Anyway, after the session, I came back home, and they always recommended to walk after the acupuncture session. I went walking with my husband, and active labor started. It was clear, and it was so intense. It really started every 15 minutes, then every 10 minutes, then 7, then 5. So at 5:00, I texted my doctor and my doula, and they were like, "Okay. This is fantastic. Let's wait until you are 3-1-1." So every three minutes, one minute long for one hour. But I felt like things were going super fast. So I told Neri, my doula, "Can you please come see me?" Because she always told me the timing between contractions and the duration is important, but it's even more important that I see how you're acting. So she came. And in the meantime, my husband was packing the last things to go to the hospital. I also was pretty relaxed in the sense that my mom was taking care of my toddler, so I was really relaxed about that. My husband had become an expert in helping me put pressure in my hips during each contraction. He was packing and helping me, and he was just a rock star. He was offering me water, and he was my biggest cheerleader. Neri arrived, she saw me and she's like, "Okay, it's time to go to the hospital." So I was like, "Okay. So we went into the car." At this time, I was already in a lot of pain. Contractions were so long. They were 1:20, some of them, a minute and a half. It was super intense. I couldn't see anymore. I was just holding to the back seat. I was sitting in the back, just facing the other way. And here is where all the mental preparation really stepped in because I was remembering all of the affirmations that I was listening to. I was remembering all of the stories that I heard. I was also obsessed with watching birth videos. So all of that was going through my head. I love them so much. My dad, who was my favorite person in the world, passed away seven years ago. I could really feel he was there. It was just crazy. So anyway, I was doing all this mental work during each of the contractions while in the car. And this was at midnight, and we were very close to the hospital. The road was blocked, completely blocked by construction. And we were like, "Oh my god." I was in labor land. I was not paying attention to details, but I could hear in the back my husband and my doula getting a bit worried. My doula went out of the car, and I could hear her telling the police guys and the construction workers, "Hey, guys, we have a lady here that's in labor. If you don't let us through, she's going to have her baby here." And it was like, "Wow. Okay." So they opened the road just for us. We went through. We arrived to the hospital. And it's crazy at that time because you only do the few things that you can do in between contractions. I went into the room. This time, it was a different hospital. The room was so lovely. I remember it being a peach color. We had essential oils. We had my playlist. Again, my husband was my biggest cheerleader. Five minutes later, my doctor arrived, which made me feel so much better. And she's like, "I'm going to check you." I was already at an 8. So that was super exciting because it was already past what I had achieved last time, and then my water broke. My doctor said, "Sophie, I need you to look to me in the eyes and listen to me." So I looked at her and she said, "Sophie, this baby has to be born now, so I need you to start pushing." I was still not at 10 centimeters. I think I was 9 or something. But what they didn't tell me at the time is that my water already had meconium, and my baby's heart rate was starting to have some significant declines. But luckily, he was recovering. I was very thankful later on that they didn't tell me all of this because I was just so focused. So anyway, I tried different positions. First, I went and sat down on what we call a Mayan chair. I did all fours. So I think I pushed for an hour or an hour and a half. I just remember it being very magical in the sense just seeing my doctor, my doula, and my husband working together, cheering me, communicating even without words. Everything was just flowing. But still, baby was not being born, and pushing was so much harder than I thought. And also, I guess because I was not at 10 centimeters yet, I was not having the super urge to push, but they were guiding me to do so, and it was really, really great guidance. So finally I went into throne position, which, honestly, was the last position that I thought I was going to give birth in, but it felt all right. I was a second away to give up and to tell them, "You guys, I think I cannot do this." But then I remembered in all of the podcast stories that I listened to that usually when you're at that stage, it is because baby is about to be born. So then my doctor told me, "Sophie, baby is almost here. Do you want to touch their head?" We had decided this time not to know the sex until birth, so I had no idea if he was a boy or girl. I touched the head and that was so, so, so exciting. So I was like, okay. It just gave me another rush of energy. My doula said, "I really think two more pushes, and you're going to meet your baby." So I pushed once. The little head popped out and then it went back in. And then this whole time, they had been telling me to try not to push with my throat, but with my abdomen. But then they said, "This time when you push, push with all of your strength. If you feel like screaming, scream." So I pushed so hard. I screamed. My baby was born at 2:22 AM and baby started crying right away. I started yelling, "I did it. I did it. I can't believe it." And yeah, just for a few seconds, I had no idea if he was a boy or girl because I right away put him in my chest. And then my husband looked and he said, "Oh my god, it's a boy." And yeah, people asked, "So what's his name?" And we said, "His name is Rio." Rio in Spanish means river. And it also stands for the flow of life. I really, really think it really honored the way that he arrived into this world. And honestly, he's a pretty chill and easy going baby. So it was honestly the best day of my life. And later my doula, my doctor and I just, just went through the whole story. And again, we all said, I think my mental and spiritual state of mind was very different. This time was much more positive. I also really felt held by my drive. I had this chat of my all my best friends in this WhatsApp chat, and they were all rooting for me. And also, remember I told you there was this shaman, like this magician priest who told me that I was going to be able to do it? They gave us a candle. My mom lighted the candle when we went to the hospital, and the candle turned off by itself at 2:20 and Rio was born at 2:22. So that was pretty magical as well.Julie: Wow.Sophia: Yeah. And just the last thing I'll say about the story is that also, my gynecologist and my doula were also in a different state of mind. They had had a lot of VBAC experience which was great. And my doula always told me, "It doesn't matter how your baby is born. What matters is the experience, and that you really feel this connection with your baby. But in this case, Adriana told you to push this baby out, and you understood the assignment. You literally delivered your baby, and you had the baby when you were asked to do so, and that in itself is strength." So, yeah, that's my story.Julie: I absolutely love that. Just all of it. What a journey. I'm sorry. I'm trying to figure out where to start. I took some notes as you were talking, and I just think it's so incredible, all of the different things that you did to prepare. I really like what your doula told you during your pregnancy about your personality that you've always had clarity and determination. It was something like that. She said, "Clarity and determination is your personality." I love that because I think sometimes it's easier to advocate and fight and navigate having a VBAC when that clarity and determination is already something that comes naturally to us. It's not something that comes naturally to everybody. It's not good or bad or assigned into a category. It just is. And like me, I'm incredibly stubborn, and I will fight sometimes harder than I should to get the things that I want or desire. And I think that my stubbornness played a huge part in working towards that. Sometimes it's just easier to advocate for yourself when you already have those strong personality traits.Sophia: So yeah, for sure.Julie: But it's okay because you don't have to have those strong personality traits inherently in order to get your VBAC. There are lots of other things that you can do and lots of other things that are on your side as well. I wanted to touch on some of the things that you did to prepare. You took the VBAC class which is amazing. I love our VBAC class. It's really incredible. Lots of good information. I feel like obviously, it's pretty well-rounded and has lots of different characteristics and addresses all of the different learning styles and things like that. Things for the data junkie like me, and things for the people who are more holistic minded, things that are more mentally mental preparation focused, and things like that. You talked about Rebozo, Spinning Babies, and learning how to relax your mind and your body, the positioning of the baby, acupuncture. You hired a very, very good doula and provider who both had lots of VBAC experience. That was also something that was really important to me. I interviewed, I think, like 12 doulas when I was preparing for my first VBAC because I really wanted a doula who had a VBAC herself and supported lots of VBAC families. I don't think it's necessary that to have a doula who has had a VBAC herself in order to have a really solid VBAC doula. I don't think that's necessary, but that's something that was important for me.Sophia: Yeah, for sure. For me, too.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted midwives who had done lots of VBACs, and that was really important to me. Now it's not, like I said, necessary, but it's something that you can put in your toolkit to prepare. So I feel like a lot of times I hear people say something to the effect of, "I tried all the things, and I still didn't get a VBAC or I tried all the things and I didn't get a vaginal birth." And you know what? Some people try all of the things and don't get a delivery method that they want. And some people do literally nothing and have a perfect birth. I want to just tell you that birth is inherently unfair. Sophia: Yeah.Julie: Especially with the way our system is set up to handle pregnant women, and babies, and labor, and all of that stuff. It's inherently unfair. Sometimes you can do everything and have a completely unexpected birth experience, and sometimes you can and do absolutely nothing. My sweet sister-in-law is getting induced tomorrow. She knows absolutely nothing about labor and birth and delivery. She has no desire to know anything. She knows absolutely nothing. She's getting induced tomorrow, and I'm just really trying start hard to stay in my role as supportive sister-in-law when I see some choices that she's making that might influence her birth in a way that she doesn't want, but also, I don't think the outcome really matters to her, to be honest. I just don't think how the baby gets here matters. And that's okay. It is. That is okay. I guess my point of all of this is that you don't have to do all of the things. I feel like some people say, "I feel like I don't want to miss anything." What you need to do is learn about the things that are available to you, and then gravitate towards the ones that resonate well with you. Maybe you don't even care about Spinning Babies or what position your babies in, but you really want to focus on nutrition and getting your mind ready and finding a supportive provider. Cool. Do those things.Sophia: I really tried to enjoy this pregnancy because I only plan to have two kids, so I was like, maybe this is my last pregnancy. I just wanna make sure I enjoy it. I even did a photo shoot with my family and stuff. I just really enjoyed it. I know that for some women, it stresses them to think about all this prep, but for me, this time around, it just made me feel good just being informed and things like that. And honestly, to have a VBAC in a context like Mexico is not a minor achievement. The system is so set-up to just go into C-sections. So yeah, it was just a lot of challenges against me, but I was really lucky that I had really good service providers by my side that were supportive. My doula told me, "When we saw that you had meconium, and we saw that your baby's heart rate was descending, I'm sure any other doctor would have sent you to the OR, but Adriana, your doctor, really believed that you could do it, so that's why she decided to just give you a chance and you did it." That's just really important as well.Julie: Yeah no, I agree. If you want to do all the things, if doing all the things makes you happy and helps you feel prepared, then by all means, do all the things. I don't think you should do nothing. Let me clarify that. I think you should do something, at least one thing. But do the things that really resonate with you. I saw an Instagram post yesterday, I think. I'm trying to find it now. I think it was maybe on the account called Trusting Birth or something like that, but basically it said that there are studies that show-- nope, it is not trusting birth. Dang it. Gosh, dang it. I really want to find it. It was something about how there are studies that show that women when they're pregnant, make smart choices. Okay? They make smart choices. That doesn't mean they go deliver in the hospital and have an epidural. It's not a blanket statement, right? They make smart choices, which means they let their intuition guide them. No, not smart choices. Safe choices. Safe choices. And what is safe depends on the parent and the baby and the pregnancy. When you let women guide their own care and give them options, they make the safe choice. Now, the safe choice is different, like we just said, but the choice that is safest for them at the time. There is a study to back that up. And gosh dang it, I wish that I could find it. I'm literally on my phone right now thinking of all the different accounts it could be. I wonder if I liked it. Dang it. Anyway, if I can find it, I will have Paige, our podcast transcriber, link it in the show notes. I'll send it to her. But anyway, it was really interesting because that's what we've been advocating for all along. Trust in your intuition. Trust your gut. Trust your internal guide. You will make a safe choice. And if that's birthing at home, if it's birthing in the hospital or whatever it guides you to, if it's acupuncture, Spinning Babies, massage, getting a doula, not getting a doula, doing a VBAC class or what VBAC class to do. All of those things are safe choices that you can make for yourself. Now, dang it. I just want to hang out here until I can find it. Sophia: No worries.Can I add one more thing?Julie: Yes, please do while I keep looking.Sophia: Yeah. Talking about the safe choices, I think one of the things that made me feel very safe and allowed me to really focus on the contractions and the pushing is just knowing that my birth team was really on my side, like my doctor, my doula, and my husband. Most women who I know in Mexico have to spend a lot of time advocating for their obstetric rights, so not having to worry about that and just focus on my birth just made me feel really safe and just being able to know that they believed that I could do it.Julie: Awesome. Yes, I agree. I agree. Believing in yourself is a big thing. Granted, sometimes you'll believe in yourself. I think when I say believe in yourself and trust yourself and trust your intuition, it's not trust yourself that you can have a VBAC, although that is very important. That's important. But trust yourself that you will navigate the birth in a way that's safe and healthy for you and your baby, and that might be a repeat C-section. It might be a home birth, an unassisted birth, a hospital birth, but trust yourself that you will be able to guide yourself safely through the birth process whatever that looks like. And guess what? I found the post. I had liked it, and I just had to go into my activity in my Instagram history. It's from an Instagram account called Intentional.Birth. Intentional.Birth. And it says that there's a PhD biologist and doula, Sophie Messager who bridges the scientific and intuitive worlds of birth at the induction equation. So I think maybe that's the induction equation. Oh, I guess I don't know what the induction equation is. Anyway, so the post shows though, it says, "Research shows that women make safe choices. Because of the constant communication between the woman and the baby, women tend to know when something is wrong, and they also tend to know when something is right. Ignoring a woman's instincts is a very stupid thing to do." I like that. Women's instincts tend to know when something is right. I hear that all the time. This is what it sounds like.It sounds like, "Oh, my doctor recommended an anatomy scan at 32 weeks, but I just don't feel like that's necessary." Yeah, it's because you know something's right. Or, "I know measuring for a big baby isn't really evidence-based, but I just think I want to do it." That maybe feels like something is right, the big baby scan or whatever. Or maybe that something's wrong, right? "My doctor brought up inducing at 39 weeks. And normally I would say no, but it just feels like the right thing to do." That is your intuition. Or, "My doctor said maybe we should induce at 39 weeks, but I just don't think that that feels. That doesn't feel right to me." And so you wait. That's your intuition. Like those comments, trust that you know when your baby is safe. You know when something's wrong. You know when something's right even if you can't literally define it. Follow those feelings. They're important, and there is science to back it up.Sophia: That's how I felt when my baby was breech. I had this intuition that I'm going to be able to turn it around and, everything's going to go well, and it did. I love that there's this study backing up the importance of following your intuition.Julie: Yeah. So go check it out. It looks like, it links to the study at Sophie. That's your name? No, you're Sophia.Sophia: People call me Sophie.Julie: So yeah, there we go.Sophia: It's all connected.Julie: Yeah, there we go. It's all connected. Sophie Messager. That's M-E-S-S-A-G-E-R. That is the PhD biologist who is linked with the host. I'm going to follow this lady right now. Transformational Journey Guide for Sacred Shifts. Incredible. All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sophia, for sharing your story with us today. I loved talking with you. It's incredible for everyone birthing in Mexico and Mexico City especially, we know there are a lot of similarities between the United States, but there's also some differences, and different challenges to navigate. So we appreciate hearing your perspective and your experience, and I just really enjoyed having you here with me today.Sophia: Likewise. Thank you so, so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Molly joined us for Episode 84 talking about her unexpected breech Cesarean and first VBAC story. Today, she returns sharing her second VBAC story!Molly shares her powerful journey through loss, IVF, selecting her powerhouse birth team, preparing for different outcomes, post-dates, a multiple-day induction, a beautiful delivery (where her husband caught their sweet baby!), and navigating a placental lobe.Allison, one of our VBAC-certified doulas, joins Meagan as a co-host talking about her work as a virtual doula and the importance of how women are treated during their births. Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. I hope you guys are having a fantastic day or evening and are excited for another episode of The VBAC Link. We have our friend, Molly, today, and she is from central Alabama, and then we also have a co-host today. She's one of our doulas. Her name is Allison. Hello, Allison.Allison: Hi, Meagan. Hi, Molly.Molly: Hi.Meagan: I was going to say, and hello, Molly. Molly: Hi.Meagan: Welcome to the show you guys, and thank you for joining us. Allison is actually one of our doulas. I don't know if you've noticed along the way here and there, we have one of our doulas on as a co-host. I think it's so fun to hear an educational topic from them and then, of course, share where they are at because I truly believe hiring a doula is so impactful. In fact, on Molly's form, that is one of the tips that she gave. Right, Molly? You're like, hire a doula.Molly: Yes, absolutely. It made all the difference this birth.Meagan: Yes. Doulas are incredible. So if you can, hire a doula. Before we get into Molly's story, Allison, I wanted to just turn the time over to you really quick and have you share a little bit more of where you are at. So for the listeners, maybe in your area, they can find you.Allison: Absolutely. Well, listeners, you have a treat because I serve everyone all over the world, globally. All of my work is online. My business name is The Cesarean Doula because I actually support women and birthing people emotionally after having emotionally difficult or traumatic Cesarean births. I do all of my work primarily over the Internet over Zoom. My focus is actually not on birth but on postpartum and on recovering from the feelings of grief, sadness, loss, overwhelm, and confusion that we often have after a Cesarean that's undesired or that goes in a difficult direction. I had one of those. That's what brings me to this work.Meagan: Yes. I love that you mentioned that you're like, this is what brings me here. I think in a lot of ways for doulas, that's what brings us to doing this work is our own experience and wanting to set a different pace and make change. So I love what you're doing. We're recording in 2024, everybody, but hopefully now, it's 2025, and you can go to our website because we're hoping to have a different option for searching doulas where you can actually go and search for online only because we do have a big chunk of doulas that do virtual support. So let's hope that that is the thing. If not, email me and say, "Meagan, get on it. Do this, because I want this option." Okay. Well, Ms. Molly, welcome to the show. You guys, Molly is a full-time mama, a part-time vet technician, and a soccer coach. That is a lot of things all at the same time. Yes. My husband is a soccer coach and just that alone is a lot. Like I said, she lives in Alabama with her husband and her two sons, her mom, and lots of dogs, cats and horses. She said that she also has two daughters in heaven. I'm sure you're maybe going to talk about that a little bit today, Molly.Molly: Yes, it is part of our story.Meagan: Yes. Okay. Well, thank you guys again for being here. In just one moment, we're going to dive in. All right, Ms. Molly. I don't know why I keep calling you that Ms. Molly, like you're a teacher.Molly: It's the song. It'll get you.Meagan: It comes together. Yeah, seriously. Okay, thank you so much for being here and yeah, I would love to turn the time over to you to share all of these stories.Molly: Thank you very much. So if you guys, if you listen to The VBAC Link, I was on a couple years ago talking about my first C-section and then the subsequent VBAC with my first daughter. Unfortunately, a couple years after that, my daughter passed away. And shortly after that, the desire to have another baby was laid on our hearts, and so we decided to try that.For various reasons, that meant we had to go through IVF. We were very lucky in that our IVF journey was short. That's a whole other podcast on its own, the IVF process. We ended up with three embryos, and then in December of '23, we did our first transfer. That one unfortunately failed. And so that's my second daughter in heaven. We did another test after that to see why the transfer had failed and determined that we needed another day of shots. Well, I say we-- me. I needed another day of shots to do the transfer. So in March, we did another transfer with the extra day of shots, and that one was successful. I had the teeniest bit of spotting the next day and just woke up knowing I was pregnant. It was pretty magical, actually. The at-home pregnancy test, seven days after that, was positive. Then the blood tests after that were positive. I did have a little bit of spotting after that which was a little scary. I talked to my doctor, and she upped the progesterone in oil shots I was taking. The amount of those seemed to clear out the spotting. And then we went in for our first ultrasound. I was diagnosed with a subchorionic hematoma, I think is what it's called, which is essentially like a bruise between the placenta and the uterine lining. That cleared up on its own. Fortunately, after that, I was a "normal" pregnancy. We weaned off the IVF shots. My last one was actually on Mother's Day which was a magical little sign. And that's when we dove right into labor prep. We did the Spinning Babies and bouncing on the birth ball. I walked every day. We went back through our birth plan. We tried to cover every single contingency from a repeat Cesarean which wasn't the goal, but we wanted to be prepared just in case. We prepared to labor at home as long as humanly possible. We even prepared to have a car baby. We had a bag with a bowl to catch the placenta and towels and puppy pads just in case we labored at home so long that we had a car baby.We hired a doula this time around. We had originally played around with the idea of doing a home birth, but in Alabama for VBACs, midwives still cannot attend VBACs at home in Alabama. We did find a midwife who was willing to do that for us but because of the restrictions, it wasn't covered by insurance, and that priced it out. So the compromise was that we would do a hospital birth, but I could have a doula this time. We interviewed doulas and found one who's actually certified by The VBAC Link. She's taken y'all's class and she was wonderful. Her name is Jolonda, and she was fantastic. And actually, in the end, my husband said, "I'm so glad we had a doula for me." Not necessarily for me, but for him. He needed her more than I did, and that was pretty cool. We also, this time, instead of going with an OB, went with midwives. They were associated with an OB practice, but we went just to the midwives. That was an interesting and much different experience. It was more like a conversation and less like an exam. We go in, and they would take my blood pressure, and then we would just talk. It was wonderful. She went through my birth plan point-by-point, and then signed it and scanned it into my chart. Anything that wasn't possible, she'd say, "Well, we can't do this because of the hospital we were at, but we can do this or we can try and do this and make that work." She was completely accepting of anything that I wanted to do differently. We decided not to do the erythromycin eye ointment. She said, "Yes." She was fine with that. We delayed, I think, the Vitamin K shot then and the delayed cord clamping. She was all 100% supportive of everything that we wanted to do. I did have to see the OB once just so they could sign off on me being a, quote, healthy pregnancy, and that was a quick in and out. There was a doctor visit, and they said, "Okay, we'll see you back in a couple of weeks." I said, "No, I'm going to go back across the street to midwives. I'll see them in a couple weeks." So that was all. My pregnancy really in itself was pretty normal. And then we got closer and closer to my due date. Now, I was due on November 18, and we got closer. I stopped working as a veterinary technician on the end of October right before Halloween. We had our baby shower. We were getting close to all the guess dates. Everybody had guessed when your baby's going to come. I would text them, "Nope, you missed it. It wasn't today." And so we slowly passed all those days, and then we passed my due date. We were doing everything-- the tea and bouncing on the birth ball and the dates and the pineapple, walking, The Miles Circuit, curb-walked. I knew the closer we got to 41 weeks and 42 weeks even, the more that there was going to be pressure for a repeat Cesarean. Now, to my midwife's credit, she never mentioned a repeat Cesarean. That was the very last thing that she ever talked to us about. We had talked about it in our birth plan, of course, but as we passed the due date, she didn't mention that as a course of action. As a joke, we asked our son, "When do you think Mama will have the baby? Now that we're past our due date, when do you think Mom will have the baby?" And he said, "I think she's going to wait until December." I said, "Buddy, please don't put that on me." So we'll let you know how that goes towards the end.Meagan: Yeah, I mean that would be what, two and a half more weeks? Three? Yeah, two and a half more weeks.Molly: Yeah, it was a long time. And I said, "Bud, please don't put that on me. That's a long more time." So then we made it through Thanksgiving. I consented to a cervical check at 39 weeks and there was no action the cervix, but you and I know that that can change in an instant, and it's not an indicator of anything. Meagan: Nope.Molly: At 40 weeks, I consented to another check and to a sweep of the cervical membranes. That made me feel crampy but really didn't do anything. We started talking about induction at that appointment. We talked about starting with the Foley bulb over breaking the waters or maybe Pitocin. We talked about those options and which ones I was most comfortable with. And so then after the 40-week appointment, they sent me in for a biophysical and non-stress test, and we passed those with flying colors. No problem. Baby was fine, I was fine. She just was very, very comfortable. Then at the 41-week appointment, we did another sweep and this time I was dilated to a really tight 1. But again, that didn't really do anything. We made our next appointment for 41 weeks and 3 days. And the ladies in the front office said, "We hope we don't see for that appointment." And I said, "I hope you don't either," but we did see them for that appointment. So at 41 weeks and 3 days, we talked about the induction again. They did another sweep just in the hope that maybe it would start things. It didn't. So we talked about and scheduled the induction. We'd agreed to start with the Foley and see how that went, and then maybe talk about breaking waters and maybe, maybe Pitocin being our last resort. We stopped for dinner. That was Wednesday evening. We stopped for dinner on the way in because I was like, "We're going to have a baby, and I need my strength. I've got to eat before we go in." So we stopped for dinner, and we got checked in. They got me strapped in with a wireless monitor, which was new this time and was so much better than the wired monitor because I could move. It was much better. And this is the start of what we like to jokingly call birthatory, because it's birth purgatory. I was stuck there in the room. I couldn't leave. My husband left just to get us food, but it just felt like we were there forever with nothing to do. And time moved strangely as well. I watched Friends at night to help me sleep, and I watched Parks and Rec during the day to keep me entertained. We did a lot of walking up and down the room as much as we could. And that Wednesday evening was just to start us monitoring. Jolanda came in, and she was in and out and checking with us that night. They also started me on the Group B strep meds. I think I forgot to mention I was positive this pregnancy. I had a weird reaction to whatever med they put me on first, like my scalp was on fire. It was a really bad reaction. Meagan: Interesting. Is that a common reaction?Molly: I believe they said it could happen, but it's not super common. I wish I could remember which medicine it was they gave me. But, I mean, it felt like my scalp was on fire. I was itching. It was horrible. So they gave me some Benadryl which fortunately helped me nap, so I got some rest. But we didn't want to do too much of that, so they switched me to a different medication. And again, I wish I could remember the name of it, but I can't. And that, I did not react to, so we stayed with that one for the rounds of the Group B Strep meds. So that was Wednesday night, and they were really just monitoring me. Thursday morning, the OB and the midwife on call came in to discuss my case. They discussed options. Pitocin. I consented to a check because we were going to start with the Foley, but I was at a 3 already. So that put the Foley out of commission because the Foley will only work up to 3. We talked about Pitocin versus artificial breaking of the membranes. The OB did do a little bit of pressuring, but we were all prepared for it. He said, "Well, at this point, this many post dates, you're probably definitely going to have meconium." And behind his back, my doula, my sweet doula rolled her eyes. It was what I needed, that support in that moment for the doctor to say, "Oh, well, there's definitely meconium." And my doula would be like, "No, there's probably not." So we asked for time to discuss between us and what to do. And Yolanda had these little informational cards with different affirmations. There was affirmation cards, but different, like facts about, induction from-- oh, I'm blanking.I can't remember. But they were little printed out laminated cards with different facts about different types of induction, and they were really helpful.It's Evidence Based Birth. That's what it was. It was all evidence-based and backed up by studies and stuff. So we discussed what we wanted to do, and we agreed to breaking the waters on Thursday morning. So the midwives came in and broke my waters, and there was no meconium. So that doctor can just go sit somewhere else. My waters are broken. I walked up and down the room, but nothing really happened. That night, there were some surges that we did time, but they petered out, and nothing really happened. So we woke up Friday morning, and that was December 1st. I, with despair in my voice, looked over at my husband and I said, "It's December. We've made it to December." I felt like a balloon that was beyond needing to pop and was just discouraged and tired. I was at the end of my rope, really, honestly. They came in, and I agreed to another check. This was the first check that they'd done since they broke my waters. And so if you're keeping count at home, my water's now been broken for about 26 hours. We happen to be watching an episode of Friends where the character, Rachel, is in labor, and she's having trouble dilating as well. And Ross makes a joke about, "I'm dilated 3." Well, they did the cervical check and checked, and I was still dilated 3. And Michael goes, "I'm dilated 3," and everybody laughed. It was a good break in the tension. After that, they left to go discuss my case. Michael went to go get me some hot water so I could make tea. But he came back in and he said, guess who's here and looking at your chart?" And I had no idea. He said, "It's Vicky," who's the midwife who helped deliver my first VBAC baby. She had retired, but come out of retirement and was only working on the weekends in the hospital. And I looked at him. I said, "We're having a baby today." Just something told me that with Ms. Vicky there with us, we were in good hands, and we were going to be okay. So she came in and talked to me about starting Pitocin. She also told me, because at this point, I was worried about a repeat Cesarean. And she told me, she said, "I'm no longer looking at you as a VBAC patient. You've had a successful vaginal birth. I'm treating you just like any other birth now." And it was such a healing statement for me. It wiped the worry about a repeat C-section out of my mind. It was just the perfect thing to say.Meagan: Yes. I don't want to interrupt you too much, but I love that you pointed that out, because most providers, they're actually looking at no matter if you've had a VBAC or not, you're always a VBAC. But what you just said to me really is gonna connect with so many others. It connected with me because we just want to be viewed as someone going in and having a baby. We don't want labels and these things that loom over our head even if we've had a VBAC before or if we haven't had a VBAC before. We just want to be looked at and treated as someone coming in and having a vaginal birth just like anybody else coming in and having a vaginal birth. So I love that you pointed that out, and I'm sure that that really did just connect and feel so good.Molly: It was a huge release of stress knowing that I didn't have to worry about the repeat C-section, the VBAC anymore, and I could just focus on having the baby and what I was doing and just doing what we needed to do that day to have the baby.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: So we did agree to the Pitocin she suggested. And we got very into the details, and we're almost a year out. I should have written them down sooner. I can't remember the numbers we started at, but she wanted to start at a certain amount over a certain time, and I disagreed. I said, "Let's start lower and slower." And she said, "That's fine. I'll do whatever you want to do." So we started really low and really slow, and I was starting to feel some things, but still not very much. It wasn't anything I had to stop to get through. It was really more just like a tightening. Jolanda came to hang out with us, brought us more food and water, and she brought a puzzle to help distract us. We were going crazy being stuck in that room. Vicky came in later that afternoon, and because still no progress was really being made. They didn't check me, but they could just tell from the contractions on the monitor. She talked about wanting to up the Pitocin a little bit faster and more frequently. I told her that I was worried about the difference in the Pitocin contractions versus natural contractions because I had heard and read so much that the Pitocin contractions are much more intense. And she told me that she'd given birth with and without Pitocin, and the only difference for her was that Pitocin births were faster. I agreed for her to bump it up a little bit, a little bit faster, that. After a little bit of time to talk about it, we agreed to do that. They did check me at that point, and I had worked my way up to a 5, and baby had moved from a -1 to, I believe, a +1. We dilated some, and baby had descended a little bit. At that point, the contractions did start to pick up, and I lost interest in the puzzle. We turned a movie on for me to watch. They were a little bit more intense, but still easy, and I could still talk through them and walk through them. Jolanda did an excellent job. She reminded me to go to the bathroom. And so I went to the bathroom, and when I walked out, I felt the baby drop. I don't know any other way to explain it, but I felt her drop in the birth canal. It was like she was sitting high, and then suddenly she dropped. I said that. I said, "Oh, I felt the baby drop." My sweet doula said, "You felt the baby drop?" I couldn't respond to her because then a contraction hit so hard that I could not talk through it. So, at that point, I told them, I said, "Please turn the movie off," because I couldn't handle the sound of movie. My husband turned on music in the background real low of our birth playlist. I needed to get down on all fours, so I got down on my knees, and I was bent over a birth ball swaying back and forth and moving forward and backwards, swaying my hips and vocalizing through them. Keep your mouth loose and low, moaning through them. At some point I didn't need the ball anymore and Jolanda brought in this inflatable thing. It was U-shaped and it was inflatable, but you could be in it and lean over it. And again, I wish I remember the name of it, but it wonderful because you could inflate and then deflate it to move it and get it out of there. But it was just perfectly shaped for me to be able to lean over it and even sit on it if I needed to, but I just was leaning over it. The contractions were getting more difficult, and she reminded me to relax my hands because my hands had gotten really tight. She was reminding me to breathe and relax my hands. She also suggested counter-pressure on my tailbone. I did not want it on my hips, but she tried it on my tailbone, and that felt incredible. Suddenly, the contractions were so much easier to bear, and they just felt more productive. It was fantastic. So she and my husband, Michael, took turns wearing their arms out, pushing my tailbone through the surges. At, that point, then the wireless monitor got weird because it had been on me for so long. The stickers, I guess, had just given out. So a poor nurse was on her knees underneath me holding the monitor on my belly, and there was either Jolanda or Michael behind me pushing on my tailbone through the contractions. And then I started grunting and felt pushy. Juolanda recognized my grunting because we talked about during my consult during my first VBAC. I get grunty when I'm pushing. She recognized the sound and she said, "Are you pushing?" But I didn't want to answer her because I didn't want to stop pushing because it felt so good to push. I hadn't been checked. So I didn't want them to know that I was pushing and check me and tell me that I couldn't push. And also, at this point, I was practically sitting back against the counter-pressure. The surge would hit, and I would sit back into whoever is doing counter-pressure and practically put my full weight back on my tailbone on their hand and the counter-pressure. Then, my knees got tired being on the floor. So I asked to move to the bed and they asked to check me. The midwife, Ms. Vicky, said, "I would love to check you right now." I said, "As long as I can be on my hands and knees, you can check me however you want."So I got up on my hands and knees on the bed, leaned over, and they checked me, and I was good to push. So at that point, we started actively pushing. Not just me pushing because it felt good, but pushing because we knew we were pushing a baby out. And pushing, it felt so good to push. I needed to push. It felt so good. I could feel her moving through the birth canal. I could feel her head coming down, and it was amazing. And just like with my first birth, it's frustrating to feel the baby move and then go back and then move forward and then go back, but you can tell you're making progress. I don't know how long I pushed for because I was way off in who knows where. Nobody else looked at the clock. Michael would have, but he was getting ready to catch. He had prepped to catch this baby. So I pushed her out into her papa's hands. He had prepped. He watched all kinds of videos meant for midwives, and he was so ready. He did such a great job. Baby Nora was there, and she was perfectly healthy. She was 7 pounds and 2 ounces, and 19 inches. For being 41 weeks and 5 days, she was still just perfectly cooked. I passed the placenta at some point after that. We did the golden hour, and we snuggled in. He cut the cord after it stopped pulsing. That was all very much a blur to me, just a golden, snuggly haze of love. So we passed the placenta, and it was declared complete. We looked at it, and we put in our little cooler to take home and freeze to plant her little birth tree. I did tear a little bit, so they stitched me up and we took some pictures. And then Ms. Vicky went home. She'd stayed 45 minutes late for us. She went home at that point, and I started nursing Nora. At that point, however, I was still in pain. So they said, "Would you like something for pain?" I asked for just Tylenol. I didn't want anything heavier than that, but I was still pushing. I was still feeling the urge to push, and it was getting worse. So the nurses applied some pressure to my uterus, external pressure. It hurt so bad I could barely stand it. Michael took the baby at that point, and Jolanda suggested me trying to avoid my bladder, and maybe that would help. But I couldn't. I couldn't get those muscles to work, so they put a catheter in. That didn't really help. The surges were still coming and I couldn't stop pushing. They put more pressure on my uterus, external pressure, and I passed a huge blood clot. It was like a softball-sized blood clot. That felt a little better, but I was still pushing and I could not stop the pushing. So they gave me some stronger pain meds and talked to the OB who was on call and all agreed that I needed to go the OR and see if something had been left. So we agreed to that and went under sedation into the OR, and they removed a golf ball-sized portion of the placenta. Meagan: Whoa.Molly: Yeah. It was confusing because they had declared my placenta complete and after talking about it, and they looked at all the pieces, and it turns out that I had a lobular lobe.Meagan: I was going to say you probably had a lobe.Molly: Yes. And so after I mentioned "Oh well, I had some spotting early in pregnancy," they figured that the spotting had contributed to that, and that's why the placenta looked complete and there was a lobe and the hematomas all contributed to the early bleeding and the lobe in the placenta. I came out of the OR fine. I got two bags of blood but felt fine. When I woke up, I got to hold Nora in the OR. Well, not in the OR, but in the recovery and nurse her again. And everything was really fine after that. Jolanda checked on us a couple of hours after that. She brought us food. We had talked about what I wanted to eat post-birth. I wanted to eat a cheeseburger with bacon from a specific place near the hospital with fries. She brought it all, and we ate it at like 11:00 PM. It was wonderful. And Michael, like I said before, said later that having a doula this time around was 100% worth it mostly for him because she was suggesting things that he wouldn't have known to offer like the counter-pressure and, "Hey, maybe she needs to pee," and things like that. It saved him and helped him know what to do while I was off in labor land. For that, our sweet doula was so worth it. And after that, recovery was great, and we were fine.Meagan: That is awesome. So still had a little bit of a hiccup there in the end, but overall a really great experience.Molly: It was awesome. And I said before, with the birth plan, we tried to plan for all contingencies, but the one thing we did not plan for was three days trying to be induced naturally. Meagan: Yeah.Molly: I mean, they say time isn't linear, and I have never felt that more true than we were stuck in that room for three days. It was very weird just not being able to get out. It's not something I would do again, the induction part, but we made it through thanks to great support from midwives and doula and my wonderful husband. I would do the birth part, and maybe not the hemorrhaging at the end, but the birth part I would do again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's just less ideal. I don't know. Did they ever talk to you? Because I know that IVF parents do have a slightly increased chance of hemorrhaging. Did they ever relate it to IVF, or was it mainly just, "Hey, you had a subchorionic hematoma earlier, then you have this lobe." Maybe it was just that they.Molly: The doctors didn't. No, we were very aware that she was an IVF baby, and we had done a lot of research before that IVF babies have a very "sticky" placenta.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: That was one of the factors why we didn't do a home birth was because if the placenta sticks, and then you're at home, it can be a rush to the hospital. But the doctors at the hospital didn't mention the IVF possibility as the reason I hemorrhaged. Maybe it played a part. I don't know. They seemed to put it on the sub-chorionic hematoma. But it could have been both. I don't know.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. All of the little factors could have been. The best thing is that it seemed pretty minor and a quick fix. A quick fix. I just wanted to remind everybody, so I'm pretty sure this is your episode. It's Episode 84. So if you want to go hear the breech Cesarean and the first VBAC, definitely go back and listen to those on Episode 84. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and I'm so glad that it was so great and that your husband got to catch a baby. That's like my favorite, you guys.Just to let you know, that's happening more and more. At least it has been here in Utah as we're attending births. Sometimes, all you've got to do is ask. So if you have a partner who is interested in that, I think asking is not harmful. Just ask. It can seem intimidating, but it's not too bad. It's not too bad. They really help these partners catch these babies. Allison, I would love to have you share your two cents and your educational topic on healing after Cesarean. We're doing these topics instead of reviews sometimes when we have guests. I love what you do because just like Molly and myself, we've been there having an unexpected-- well, maybe with the breech it was kind of planned. I'm trying to remember back in your story.Molly: So with the breech, with the Cesarean, we had planned a C-section, but then he broke my water early, so it was not necessarily an emergency Cesarean, but we had to go in before we were "scheduled" to for the C-section.It was planned, but unexpected at the time. The wrong timing. Yes. Okay. Well, tell us more, Allison.Allison: Yeah, and I want to say thank you so much, Molly, for sharing your story. I actually want to point out a few things that I think are really important here. I work with so many people who have had a birth that feels difficult or traumatic. And oftentimes, there are women who come to me who say, "I don't understand why I feel upset about my birth even though I have this baby who's healthy and alive, if we're lucky enough to have a living baby or a healthy baby or both." And one of the things I talk a lot about is that oftentimes it's not the events themselves in the birth that create a difficult or traumatic birth, but it's how we feel, right? And so, what makes a birth feel good or bad? Like, I listen to you talk about this experience where you had some challenges leading up to it, right? Especially preconception, and then during conception. I felt your joy. I felt your connectedness, and I felt your power throughout your story even as you talked about the really difficult part at the end with the placenta needing to be retrieved. I want to just point out that that's what I heard, and you've got to tell me if this feels right for you, Molly. But what I heard was many moments where you talked about feeling connected. You talked about your sweet doula. You talked about that surprise midwife coming in to support you. You felt connected. You felt seen like that moment where you said, "Oh, well, the monitor wasn't working, but then the nurse got underneath me," so instead of actually you accommodating the hospital's protocol and policy, I love this idea. I'm imagining a nurse laying on her back under you while you're on all fours. You're empowered. That's truly centering you. Right? You're in control in a lot of these moments. You said you wanted the Pitocin lower. The doctor or the midwife honored that. It sounds like you were informed. You used some examples of the cards from Evidence Based Birth, and a lot of the information you engaged with prior to birthing. One of the things I talk about with my clients is maybe you even feel sexy during birth. You didn't mention that at all, but that might have been. There might have been moments, maybe not. Are there any other emotions that come up for you? Did I leave anything out hat you're like, oh, I really felt another positive emotion?Molly: No, you've nailed it 100%. I felt very supported this birth from the midwife listening to me and, like you said, honoring my requests and my husband being there and the doula. I felt very supported. So even the end and the hemorrhaging which should have been scary, I don't look back on as scary. I don't want to repeat it, but I wasn't scared in that moment because I felt taken care of and supported.Meagan: Mhmm. Allison: Right. That is so textbook. I love this story because that's a really, really scary thing. And if you hadn't had that support, that attunement, that communication and that safety, it could have felt different. It could have made your story feel like there was this turning point into a dive. I love that your advice was getting a doula, because in your story, I really feel how your relationship and respect for her are a big component of your support and empowerment. So I just want to end by saying that birth is really about those emotions, not the modality or even the environment where we birth. If we can create those experiences for ourselves as much as possible, we don't always have the ability to do that. Lots of things have to come together, but if we can focus on, how do I make myself feel empowered, connected, sexy, seen, in control, informed during my birth, however I birth, then the likelihood of having a positive outcome emotionally is so much higher. And when we have a better emotional experience, we're more likely to be able to have a supported breastfeeding experience and also go into motherhood feeling centered, feeling capable of taking on this new role or another baby when we already have littles at home. So thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel really touched, and I can imagine that others are too.Molly: Thank you.Meagan: I do love that you pointed that out, Allison. The way we feel during our labor, the way we're treated, the way we're communicated to, it really impacts that next step going into that motherhood era. I think back on your story. I remove your doula from your story, and I remove your supportive provider. That birth very much could have unfolded very differently especially because it was a longer induction. Right? And so when you put that powerhouse team with that true love and support back into the story, it's like, well, I don't understand why it wouldn't unfold that way anyway.But really, if you look back without that, it's questionable sometimes. And so we talk about it, you guys. I think I will probably talk about it until I die. I mean, truly, I will probably not even be in this work when I'm 80 years old, but I will still be educating people on hiring a supportive team and provider because it really does impact. I had an interview the other day with a first-time mom and she was telling me who her provider was, and I very much remember this provider as a resident. And she was fine, but not great, right? She wasn't my favorite. I very much knew, oh, in the future I would not suggest her as a provider. And so as I was talking, and I didn't want to project my opinion on her, and I was talking to her, she said that her and her husband had actually been feeling a lot of pressure and that when she goes into her visit that she normally has a voice, but when she's there, her voice is muted. She feels like she can't say these questions and can't communicate. I think right there is that big red flag that if you cannot communicate with your provider in a prenatal appointment, then that is a big sign that you will not be able to communicate with your provider efficiently during labor, and they're not going to respect you. I love that your midwife came out of retirement and started working on the weekends because she probably loves this so much and that you got her. It worked out so, so well. But guys, again, find a good, supportive provider. If you're feeling like my interview did the other day, don't hesitate. Move, change, find that support because you want to be like Molly where you're in the situation and you feel that love and empowerment. And even though there was something that ,went awry and not according to plan, Molly felt that support. And so like Allison said, that could have been a very traumatic point in your labor where it wasn't ideal. You wouldn't do it again. You wouldn't choose it. You wouldn't suggest it. But even though it happened, and I don't want to downplay it like oh, least everyone's happy and healthy. I don't want to do that. But it happened, and because you had that support, your overall view is different. So great tips, Allison. Beautiful story, Molly. Again, go back and listen to Episode 84 for the rest of her stories. And once again, thank you for being with us.Molly: Thank you so much for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Johanna is a girl mama joining us today from Canada. She had an unplanned C-section with her first, an HBAC with her second, and was pregnant with her third at the time of recording! Johanna reflects on her experiences with both supportive and unsupportive care during her pregnancies. Meagan and Johanna dive into your options surrounding PROM,  the significance of intuition in decision-making, the impact of provider choices on birth outcomes, and the nuances of VBAC postpartum recovery.The VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth VBACEverything You Need for Your HBACSupportive Providers10 Signs to Switch Your ProviderWhat to Do When Your Water BreaksLabor GuideCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have our friend Johanna with us from Canada today, and she's going to be sharing her HBAC story. So for those who may be , new to the VBAC world, or just all of the acronyms that the VBAC world has, HBAC is pronounced home birth after Cesarean. So if you are one of those who really wants to look into all of your options for birthing locations, which I encourage everyone to do, definitely listen up here. We're going to be talking about a lot of really great things including picking a provider and PROM knowing that you maybe had a provider that wasn't ideal the first time and more about HBAC. So we are going to be diving into a lot of really, really great, juicy topics. But in place our review today, Johanna and I are actually going to talk a little bit more about picking the right provider. So, Johanna, welcome to the show.Johanna: Thank you.Meagan: I am so excited for you to be with us today and so grateful that you are here to talk about this topic. Because like I was saying before we pressed record, I see daily in our community, every single day, and not even just our community, in other VBAC communities or this is weird, but people's statuses, like my friends and family's statuses on Facebook, where you type like, "Hey, I'm looking for this," or "I'm feeling very frustrated," or "I need prayers." People will seriously say, "I don't know what to do, you guys. Has anybody ever heard of VBAC?" on their own status? But especially in the VBAC groups, I see people and I just want to yell, "Hey, you over there. You're with the wrong provider" or, "Hey, you should move." That's a really hard thing because especially when I type that it can be like, oh my gosh, who is this broad telling me that I'm with the wrong provider and that I chose wrong? I'm not trying to say that. I'm not trying to say you chose wrong. Like, how dare you choose wrong? It's just like, hey, what you're telling us in this community is screaming, you're the wrong provider. So, Johanna, you , mentioned before we press record that you realized after your first birth that you were with the wrong provider. What made you realize that you were with the wrong provider? And were there signs during pregnancy that you recognized and maybe pushed away? Or was it really not something that you recognized until after? Because I know really, it can go both ways.Johanna: Yeah, I think that there were signs during the pregnancy. I mean, one of them, and I just didn't listen to my gut because you don't know what you don't know. I put too much blind faith that it was all gonna work out. But I never felt comfortable with her. I didn't have a good connection with her. I was asking a lot of questions about what I can be doing because my first birth, I really wanted to be a home birth. She basically just didn't give me very much information about what I can be doing. She sent me to your generic birth course through the hospital. Yeah. I didn't really feel like she was really invested in the outcome of my birth. I was just like another one of her patients. So I didn't feel great about that. And then when push came to shove with my birth and things weren't going great, she threw her hands up in the air and just took a step back and didn't really advocate for me or try and help me through things. So I was left with a pretty unpleasant taste in my mouth.Meagan: Yeah, I mean, exactly what you said just a minute ago. You didn't feel that she was invested in the outcome of your birth. And then it proved. It proved to be true when she just threw her arms up. So you had that experience, and you're not alone. There are so many of us out there. Me too, me included and a lot of people on The VBAC Link team included. We have all been in a similar situation where our providers, threw our hands up, weren't invested in our birth and our experience and had to go out there and seek that support that we deserved. So if there's anything we talk about on The VBAC Link, and I'm sure you've heard it, is find the right provider. I mean, seriously, you guys, I say it daily, every single day. If I'm not typing it, if I'm not voice memo-ing it, if I'm not saying it in my mind, it's find the right provider. Johanna, what would you give for tips for our listeners to find that right provider? And how did you find that right provider?Johanna: So I found my midwife that I used for my second birth and I'm actually using again for my third birth because I am 31 weeks pregnant today.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yay.Johanna: I found her actually because when I got pregnant for the second time, the first thing I did was get a doula.Meagan: Uh-huh.Johanna: I asked her for recommendations on a VBAC friendly midwife. She had recommended this midwife. So immediately I was like, yes, I would like to meet her. When I met her, instantly, I felt so much more at ease.So I would say going with your gut. If something doesn't feel right, even if it's the tiniest thing, just look for a new provider. Just find someone where it feels right.Meagan: Yeah. I can relate to that so much because that's how I was feeling. I was searching, I was searching, I was searching. I mean, it was insane. I interviewed a lot of providers, but that's what I was searching for is that immediate like, oh, I'm in the right place. You are my person. And it took me a long time. And that sucks. It sucks that it took so long. I know that in some areas they're really rural and it's almost impossible to find that feeling. But I agree. So just as a reminder for those looking, before we get into the story, I wanted to make sure that you know to ask open-ended questions. Do not say, "Do you support VBAC? Yes or no?" Do not say, "Do you support me to go to 40 weeks? Yes or no?"Let's ask open ended questions. "How do you feel if I approach my due date and I haven't had a baby yet? How do you feel about VBAC? What is your experience with VBAC? How do you support your VBAC clients to make sure patients get the birth that they want? How do you advocate for them?"Asking these big open ended questions and then like Johanna said, diving deep. What is your heart and your gut feeling and saying? If at any point you are questioning, which I think is when people come out on social media, that is when I think they comment and they're writing, "Hey, I'm, feeling defeated. Hey, this is what my provider said." It's because they're doubting. They're questioning. That's their intuition. If that even comes into play at all, it's time to switch. It is time to switch. And first-time parents, if you are out there listening, this applies to you too, right? We have to avoid these unnecessary Cesareans which are happening all over the world. We have to follow our intuition. So that's another thing we talk about until we're blue in the face-- intuition. So follow that intuition. Ask open ended questions. Really dive in deep because your provider really can make an impact.And really, really quickly, we're going to just barely skim the surface on PROM. PROM is premature rupture of membranes. Johanna and I have both experienced it. She's two for two. I'm three for three. Maybe you won't be three for three girl. I don't know. I'm hoping you're not. Johanna: Fingers crossed. Meagan: I'm hoping you won't. But if you are, we know that it's okay. Vaginal birth still happen. But talking about providers, if you have PROM, which means your water breaks before labor begins, and just to let you know, it can take hours, even days for your body to turn over into labor after your water breaks. But if you have PROM and you don't have a supportive provider, that is right there the beginning of a fight. It shouldn't have to be a fight, but that can impact things because they want to get things going. Some providers won't even induce labor or touch you or 12 hours later they're like, "Nope, you haven't had a baby. You have to have a C-section." So yeah. So really quick Johanna, do you have any tips for our listeners who might have had PROM or may have PROM?Johanna: Yeah, it's difficult because especially when I experienced it, I mean, I experienced it for both births and the second time I really felt anxious because I was like, oh no, I'm on a ticking time-clock again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Because that's how you were treated.Johanna: Yes. I was lucky that I have a super supportive provider. And she was like, "Baby's fine, you're fine, everything's fine. We're just going to wait it out."Yeah, I mean crucial to have the right provider that is going to give you that grace and give you that time and that space, but just know the facts. Just arm yourself with information that as long as the fluid is clear, as long as you have no signs of infection-- at least here they make you come in for non-stress tests like every, I don't know if it's 12 hours or 24 hours when your water has broken. As long as everything's looking okay, you can wait, I think, up to 72 hours.Meagan: I've actually even had a client wait five days. Johanna: Holy smokes. Meagan: Five days. Close monitoring you guys, really close monitoring. But it was nothing that said a baby needed to be born. So five days is maybe abnormal. This was a home birth transfer to hospital. Even with five days rupture of membranes, the hospital did not "make" her, as I'm putting quotes up, have a Cesarean or do anything different because she advocated for herself. But it really can. 72 hours. It really can happen. So okay, we are going to stop talking about this, you guys. We're going to have links in the show notes to dive deeper into questions for your provider. What about premature rupture of membranes and things like that. So we're going to have those in the show notes if you want to dive more into that. You can dive in. But we're going to take one quick break for the intro, and then turn the time over to Johanna. Okay girl, thank you so much for chatting with me about that. I really do think it's so important.Johanna: I think knowledge about everything is your best friend when you're planning for any birth, but especially a VBAC.Meagan: Right. I know. It does suck that VBAC has to be so much more intense in our prep and our research and all these things because we're just moms going in to have vaginal births. That's all we are. But, but unfortunately that's not how it's viewed. That's just not how it's viewed in most areas of the world. So yeah, all right. Let's talk about that first birth.Johanna: Okay. So I got pregnant with my first daughter Mila in the summer of 2020. So heavy, COVID times. So that was scary enough. Because of COVID and the shift in culture towards socialization and going into hospitals and stuff like that, me and my husband decided to look into home birth which was not really on my radar before, but the more that I looked into it, I was like, oh, this is super beautiful, and I love the idea of birthing my baby at home in the piece and quiet of our own space.Meagan: Yeah. And a lot safer than a lot of people think.Johanna: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. The more I looked into it, the more I was like, okay. This is a totally viable option for us. I had a pretty uneventful pregnancy. I was very lucky. I had very minimal symptoms. Everything went well. I didn't have anything scary happened during the pregnancy. I will say that I didn't take the best care of myself. I am usually a pretty active person and I totally just didn't do much exercise or working out. I think in the back of my mind, I was scared that something bad was going to happen if I overdid it. It was just a lot of first-time mom anxieties.Meagan: Totally get it.Johanna: Yep. I didn't eat the best. I didn't take the best care of myself. I didn't do a whole lot to prep for the birth other than your typical childbirthing classes, bringing baby home through the hospital, generic courses that I think a lot of first-time moms, that's what they do, right? I read a couple of books. I read the What to Expect books, and I think I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.Meagan: Great book.Johanna: Yep. But I had no idea what to expect. When it came to labor and birth, I really was going in blind. I will say, I just put my faith in that my provider was going to hold my hand through it. That was a mistake. So yeah, I mean, it was a pretty uneventful pregnancy. There wasn't a whole lot to say other than it was COVID and everything was scary and didn't really know what was going on. When I was 41-ish weeks, my water ended up breaking. It was the middle of the night, and I didn't really know what happened. It was just like a little squirt and went back to bed. And in the morning, it was like when you move a position and a little bit comes out and you move a position and a little bit. It was one of those. And then I lost my mucus plug. So I was like, oh, I better call my midwife. So I gave her a call, and she totally brushed me off. She was like, "No, I think it's probably just discharge. I wouldn't worry about it." So that was another red flag was her just totally brushing off my feelings and what I believed was going on. So I hung up the phone and I was like, well, I don't really know what to do now. I'm fairly certain that my water's broken. So I waited a couple of hours, and it continued to trickle out. I eventually called her again and she was like, "Okay, okay, you can come in. You can come in and I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it's just discharge." So I went in and sure enough, she was like, "Oh, your water did break and it's amniotic fluids. Look at that."Meagan: Interesting.Johanna: Yeah, I could have told you that. So I was like, "Well, what do we do now?" And she was like, "Well, we can wait up to 72 hours as long as everything's healthy. That's fine, so we'll keep monitoring things." She sent me home and told me to just relax. She said, "If labor doesn't pick up today, go to bed and in the morning, do a castor oil induction." I did that. When I woke up the next morning and nothing had happened, I did do the castor oil induction. I will say that I will never do that again because it was horrible. Sorry for the TMI, but it just gave me severe diarrhea, and then nothing happened, and I was super uncomfortable. So that wasn't fun. That wasn't fun. That didn't work.I went in for a non-stress test that afternoon. She decided to check me, and I had made zero progress. I was not dilated at all. I had zero effacement or anything like that, so no progress. I felt super discouraged. My water has been broken for however long at this point-- 36 hours, I think, probably. I've made no progress. The castor oil induction and failed. I had barely slept the night before, so I was tired and I was just stressed. I was like, when is this going to happen?Meagan: But at this point you weren't really thriving with contractions. Nothing was too intense to be telling you that there should be progress, right?Johanna: Literally not a single contraction or anything. Nothing was happening.Meagan: True PROM, and so your defeating feeling is super normal because in our minds we were told our water breaks, we should be having a baby. But if we have PROM, don't expect to be dilated. Right?Johanna: Yes.Meagan: I did too. I expected to be way dilated and I wasn't.Johanna: So I felt super defeated. And like I said, I wasn't sleeping. I barely got any sleep the night before because I was just anxious for birth to get going. I ended up crying in her office about how stressed I was to end up in a C-section because my sister had a long, pretty terrible labor that ended in a C-section. It was just not a great experience for her. I don't exactly remember what my midwife said, but I did not feel reassured leaving that appointment. But we did end up deciding that if I didn't go into labor that night, I was going to be induced the next morning because I was just not sleeping well. I was not able to rest and relax because I was just anxious. So I was like, okay. I guess my home birth plan is out the window, but at least there's a plan. I ended up going home. We had dinner, and I started getting contractions just after dinner which was exciting.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: But then they petered off after, like, I don't know, an hour or two. So we went to bed, had the hospital bags packed and everything ready to go for an induction the next morning. Labor started around 2:00 AM. It started on its own around 2:00 AM.Meagan: How many total hours is this until labor comes?Johanna: I think it was about 48 hours after my water broke that I had the rupture of membranes that my labor actually started. I will say, it was pretty intense right off the hob. I hear a lot of women say that their early labor is like, "Oh, I took my other kids for a walk. I baked a cake. I did this. I did that to distract myself." My labors are not like that. My labors are intense right out the gate. I tried to eat something for breakfast. A few hours after that, I woke my husband up. We tried to eat breakfast. I got in the bathtub to try and relieve some of the discomfort. I hung out in there for a while. We had rented a birth tub. My husband got that set up. I called my midwife. She came probably around 11:00 AM, so at that point, I'd probably been laboring for like, I don't know, eight or nine hours. I was not coping well. It was very intense and I was not coping well with the pain. She checked me, and I was a 3. I was like, dang it. In my mind, what I know now is that it's not a linear thing and that it's not going to take another 18 hours to go from a 3 to 9. But in my mind then I was like, oh no, I can't do this for however many more hours because I'm already not coping well and I'm only at a 3. So I told her I was totally deflated and I told her, "I want to go to the hospital and get an epidural." She was like, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, that's fine." So I think between the time that she checked me and I was at a 3 and the time that I got the epidural, it was about two hours. That car ride to the hospital, wow, was not fun. But yes. So, in that two hours that it took between her checking me and me getting the epidural, she checked me again right as soon as it kicked in and I was at a 9.Meagan: Whoa.Johanna: Yeah. Meagan: 0 to 100. Johanna: Yeah, when I say that car ride, it was ripping through me.Meagan: Yeah, you were in transition at that point.Johanna: Yeah. When we were in the hospital waiting for the anesthesiologist to come in and do the epidural, my midwife and husband are joking around trying to make me laugh. I'm like, "This is not where are at right now." I was not having it because, obviously, I was in transition, and it just was not where I was at. So yeah, she was like, "Okay, well you're at a 9 now, that's great. So rest for an hour and then we'll probably be pushing." The epidural was heavy. I felt nothing from my ribs down. So an hour went by and she's like, "Hey, you're complete. Start pushing." I felt nothing. I'm trying to push, and she's telling me that I'm doing a pretty good job considering I have an epidural, but baby was still high. And then all of a sudden, I think I'd pushed a couple of times and all of a sudden, all of these doctors and nurses and bunch of people just start run into the room and they're all speaking French because it's a French speaking hospital.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Johanna: So I have no idea what's going on. Nobody is telling me anything. They're all speaking a different language. And I was just like, "Can somebody please tell me in English what's going on?" They told me that she was having late decal every time that I was pushing.Meagan: Okay.Johanna: So between pushes she was fine, but every time I'd push, her heart rate would go down and then have trouble recovering. At no point did anybody recommend maybe trying a position change or anything like that. Like maybe her cord was being pinched in that position. If only I knew now or knew then what I know now.Meagan: Yeah, like hydration, movement, doing something, pushing in a different position.Johanna: Yeah, yeah no. So like I said, my midwife threw her hands up and stepped back and let the OB take over and didn't say anything to me after that. The OB basically let me push three times and then was like, "Nope, this is going to take too long. We need to have a C-section," and she called a C-section.Meagan: Wow. Do you remember how low your baby's heart rate was getting?Johanna: No, I have no idea.Meagan: Okay, interesting. I mean late deceleration are less ideal, right? We don't want them to happen late. We want that to be the recovery period.But yeah, there could have been some things done.Johanna: Yeah, and looking back, it's frustrating to know that maybe if one little thing had been changed, the outcome could have been totally different.Yeah, but you can't blame yourself for that either. It's hard to look back and be like, the what if's. But yes, you did whatever you did in the moment with the information you were given.Johanna: Exactly. So I went in for the C-section. It went fine. There were no complications, but being strapped down to a table in a really cold room and having the shakes and not feeling that, not being the person to get to hold your baby. I mean, everyone listening to this podcast pretty much knows what thats like and how it was demoralizing and traumatizing for sure. But it went fine. She was born healthy. I didn't have any complications. But yeah, the emotional trauma was real and not just for me, but for my husband too. We got discharged about 24 hours after the C-section and going home and seeing the birth tub still set up in our living room was a very emotional experience. We both ended up breaking down crying.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So I had to do a lot of emotional recovery from that birth as well as physical recovery because the physical recovery from C-section was also extremely rough. I remember every time I would have to get up out of bed, it felt like I was being ripped in half. It's rough, but I knew right from the moment she was born that I would be VBACing my next baby because we had always planned on having a few kids.Meagan: I want to point out to everyone, too, the importance of postpartum support and postpartum help and planning. We never know the outcomes of birth. I didn't know the outcomes. I didn't realize that it was going to take me 15 minutes to walk 10 stairs up to my bedroom. I didn't realize it was going to take me 15 minutes to walk down the stairs. I couldn't be holding anything. I didn't realize how exhausting it was going to be to get out of bed to go to the restroom let alone taking care of a newborn baby and also thriving as an individual. So it's really important to really try not to ignore the postpartum period. I think it's easy to do because we're so focused on the birth. Especially with VBAC, I think we're so hyper, hyper focused on that VBAC, that outcome, and that experience which I do not shame anyone for being. I just want to plug it in. Don't forget about your postpartum because whether it's physical or emotional.You came back to this space of seeing a plan that didn't unfold the way you wanted it to. That can be very emotional, very traumatic even in some ways. So yeah, having some resources for postpartum as well. I just want to plug that in.Johanna: Yeah, that's a really good point. I did no prep for postpartum for my first birth.Meagan: Me either.Johanna: It wasn't even something that like dawned on me to think about. When I was in postpartum, I was like, wow, this is really intense. Like the sleep deprivation, the recovery, the breastfeeding, everything. It;s super intense. So for sure, don't neglect postpartum plans and getting the support that you need.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So anyway, I think from a couple weeks postpartum with Mila, I ended up finding your podcast and absolutely just binging it and trying to intake any knowledge I could get about VBAC natural childbirth-- just anything I could get my hands on, I was consuming because I knew that I was going to VBAC. I knew that I wanted to have a birth that was as intervention-free as possible for my second. So I ended up getting pregnant with my second daughter Bailey in the summer of 2022. The very first thing I did was I hired a doula. I already knew what doula I wanted before we even got pregnant because we had interviewed a few, and the doula that I found was actually a VBAC mom herself. And she just had a beautiful calming energy about her. I was like yep, that's who I want. So with that test, the lines turned pink, and I was already getting her on board. I ended up hiring the midwife that she recommended as well. I was intent on doing everything that I could this second pregnancy to set myself up for a successful VBAC that I could possibly do because I knew that if I did everything that I could possibly do and it still ended up in a C-section, then I don't have to have any lingering questions of well, what if I had done this? So it was like, I was going to do everything I could to set myself up for success. I was super diligent with eating well, exercising, and chiropractic care. I did all of the Spinning Babies' exercises, walking, and yoga. I did a HypnoBirthing course which I really, really liked, and I'm doing again for this pregnancy. I put up my birth affirmations. I did all the things You name it, I did it. My husband was super, super amazing and supportive and he was there with me every step of the way through every appointment and did all the coursework with me and everything like that. I'm very lucky to have a super supportive husband. I had another pretty uneventful easy going pregnancy. Other than a little bit more morning sickness and some SPD, it was pretty easy. I will say there's one thing that they make you do here, and I don't know if you guys have to do it in the US but if you're planning for a VBAC you have to see an OB around 36-37 weeks. Do you guys have to do that as well?Meagan: Yeah, so not if you're out-of-hospital. You don't have to do it. Some midwives still out-of- hospital will be like, "Hey, I want you to consult with a partnering physician," as in, "Hey, this is someone we would transfer to.: I went a consult with them, but with the midwives in hospital they require them to do a VBAC consult, and it's pretty much a visit where the OB is like, "Hey, this is what you're doing. Here is your risk. Do you comply?"Yeah.Johanna: Yes. So I ended up having to do that, and I knew it was going to be a negative experience. I knew it was just going to be fear-mongering and throwing scary statistics out. So I already had my guard up for that. And then it was also at the hospital where I had my C-section, so even just walking into that environment was very triggering.Meagan: Yeah. So I went to that and I was right. She told me, "As soon as you go into labor, you need to go to the hospital and you should have continual monitoring and and epidural just in case," and all of these things where I'm just like, no, that so goes against everything that I believe will lead to like a healthy, happy birth.I definitely didn't tell her about my plans. I actually was hoping this would end up in a home birth. I didn't actually mention this. My plan-- I didn't want to commit to a home birth. I was a little bit anxious because of my first birth ending up transferring to hospital, that I would end up having to do that again and then have that crushing disappointment that it didn't work out again. So my plan with my midwife was that I was going to labor at home as long as possible, and we were going to play it by ear. As long as everything was going well, then I would potentially have her at home. But I just didn't want to have that pressure that I needed to stay home because this was going to be a home birth. Do you know what I mean?Meagan: No, I totally do. I mean, when I was planning my, it wasn't a HBAC, it was a birth center birth. It's like a downplayed HBAC. I mean, I was in a different home. Right. I totally do. I know exactly what you mean.Johanna: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Johanna: So yeah, I definitely did not tell the OB that my plan was to have a home birth because I just did not even did not want to get into that. So I nodded my head and was like, "Yes, sure. Okay, great."Meagan: Yep.Johanna: At one point, also during my midwifery care for the second pregnancy, my midwife was like, "It's standard for you. The hospital wants you to sign a release form with a backup C-section date."Meagan: What?Johanna: And I was just like, "Yeah, I will also not be doing that." And she was like, "That is totally fine. Just sign that you won't do that." Meagan: I do not consent. Yeah, I do not consent in doing this.Johanna: Yeah, yeah. I was like, I don't need that to clock above my head.Meagan: No.Johanna: So again, my due date arrived and passed. I ended up getting a couple membrane sweeps to try and move things along, but they were unsuccessful. And wow, they are very, very painful.Meagan: So can I super quick touch on that?Johanna: Yes.Meagan: Membrane sweeps-- that's a really big question we see as well. And when you talk about them being painful, that's actually a sign that the cervix wasn't ready. Like it wasn't forward. It wasn't open. If a membrane sweep is painful, it's a real big sign-- it's not a guarantee, but it's a real big sign that your cervix isn't ready. So quick rule of thumb, if you are dilated 2+ centimeters, 3 or more is more ideal. Your cervix is really forward, meaning they don't have to reach back and in, and you are effaced at least 75-80%, that's a little bit more ideal and less painful. But if they are going back, a lot of the times is because they have to reach back and in. And so that is, that is that. And then it can cause pain, prodromal labor, things like that and, and frustration because you're wanting it to work and it's not working.Johanna: Yes. So yeah, they didn't work for me, but my midwife did tell me that I was actually 3 centimeters and she could stretch me to 3. Meagan: Great. So you were at least dilated.Johanna: Yes. So despite the fact that it was super painful and didn't work, I was still feeling very encouraged to know that my body was doing something good. Meagan: YesJohanna: Because you'll remember my first birth, I was completely closed and nothing was happening after my water broke. So I was feeling pretty good about that. At about 40 weeks and 4 days, my water broke again before labor started. It was another one of those slow trickles, and it was the middle of the afternoon, so I called my midwife, and she was like, "Okay, come meet me." She asked if the fluid was clear and I said, "Yes." And she said, "Okay, come meet me at the office later, and we'll do the non-stress test and check you out and make sure everything's dandy." So I went and everything was fine. We were just waiting again for labor to start. I felt okay because I had been through this before, and I knew my body would go into labor, but at the back of my mind I was a little bit stressing out because I was like, okay, I'm on a clock again. I went home. Nothing happened. I woke up the next day and tried to get things going with the breast pump. That got contractions going, but they never stuck around. I ended up confiding with my doula about how stressed I was feeling that I was on a clock and feeling like why can't my body just go into labor? She was extremely reassuring. She came over, and we just talked for a bit, and I felt a lot better after that. That was in the evening, the day after my water broke, and I was supposed to go in for a non-stress test. So I went and met my midwife for a non-stress test that night. It was 36-ish hours after my water had broke. Still, everything was looking good. Baby was good. She was happy. I was fine. There was no need to rush into an induction or anything like that. But she could tell I was stressed. My midwife could tell that I was a bit stressed and she was like, "It's fine. We've got lots of time. You don't need distress.: And she's like, "But I can give you these tinctures or whatever if you want to try them." It was like the blue or black. Meagan: Cohosh.Johanna: Cohosh, yes. I was like "Sure, I'll do anything at this point. I'll try anything. I don't care. So they almost look like tiny, tiny little white beads. I don't know if they're always in the same form.Meagan: Yeah, sometimes they're in drops like tincture drops or almost like you said, a pill-like bead type. Johanna: So she was like, "Okay, let's give you one now." She wanted me to take four doses an hour apart.Meagan: Did you put them under your tongue?Johanna: Yeah. So she got me to take one when I arrived for the non-stress test and then when the non-stress test was over, it had been about an hour, so she gave me a second dose, and then she sent me home with two more. So we went home, and then I took one an hour after the previous dose and it was probably 10:30 at night at that point. Contractions started going after I took the third dose and I was like okay, they're probably going to peter out again because that's what they've been doing all day. I'm tired and I want to go to bed and I don't feel like staying up another hour to take the fourth dose. So me and my husband both took a gravel because my midwife told me to take a gravel and go to sleep.Meagan: What's a gravel?Johanna: A gravel is like an anti-nausea medication, but it makes you sleepy.Meagan: I did not know that. I've never heard of that. I don't think I've never heard it.Johanna: Yeah. Interesting.Meagan: Cool. I love learning. A gravel.Johanna: Gravel.Meagan: Yeah. Okay.Johanna: So yeah, she told me to take one and go to sleep because it makes you drowsy. So I think we had fallen asleep for maybe an hour and a half and I was woken up again with very intense contractions. And this time I was like okay, this is it for real. And like I said, with both my labors, contractions were intense straight out of the gate. So I woke my husband up. Taking the gravel was a mistake because we were both super drowsy. I woke him up and I was like, "I think you need to call the doula because this is definitely happening." And so he called her over and I labored in bed. I did my HypnoBirthing tracks. I did a lot of breathing through the contractions and the HypnoBirthing was super, super helpful, I will say that. We hung out for a while and just did that. My husband tried his best to stay awake despite how tired he was. Eventually, I think I waited maybe a bit longer than I probably should have to call my midwife because I was so determined to stay at home as long as possible. I didn't want her to come and be like oh, you're a 3, right?Meagan: See? Your mind. Even in labor we trigger back. We process things as they're happening from how they happened before, and it's really hard to let go. But your mind was doing it too, right? You're like no, I can't do this because I can't be that.Johanna: Yes. So what we waited, I think it was, I don't know. I have no concept of time. But we waited a couple hours or a few hours and my doula was like, "I think we should call the midwife." I was like, "Okay, can you call her?" So we called her and shortly after we called her, I was having contractions so intense that I was having an out-of-body experience. Like very, very intense. I was getting the shakes and hot and cold lashes. In my mind I was like, I'm going through transition. For sure, for sure. I'm going through transition. My midwife was not there yet and she would not arrive for probably like another hour.Meagan: You progress quickly from history.Johanna: Yes. So, by the time she arrived, she ran upstairs to my room. She checked me and she's like, "Okay, you're at an 8, so if you want to do a hospital transfer, if you want to go, we've got to go now." And I was like, "No, that ship has sailed. We're doing this here. As long as Bailey's healthy and I'm healthy, I'd like to stay here." So she was like, "Okay, we're doing this here." And she called over the other midwife because she wasn't actually sure that it was going to be a home birth, so she didn't have the other midwife with her, so she had to call the secondary midwife to show up. It was all very hectic. This time around, I plan on calling them much more ahead of time so that it's not so hectic when they arrived because lights got turned on, equipment was shuffled around and set up and definitely took away from the vibe a little bit. But yeah. So shortly after she arrived, I was complete and I had that very stereotypical moment where you feel like you got a poo.Meagan: And sometimes you just hold back because you're like, oh crap, wait. Do I need go poo first or should I have? Wait, what should I do? I don't know. I want to have the baby, but I don't want to poop.Johanna: Exactly. So I was like, "Oh my gosh, I feel like I have to poo." My midwife's like, "It's okay. This is normal. You're good." She was just encouraging me to just do what I felt like I needed to do. I ended up pushing for probably an hour, give or take, in a sumo squat position with my midwife on one side and my doula on the other side and then my husband would switch out for the midwife supporting me on either side. And yeah, I only had to push for maybe an hour, give or take. Her head got a little bit squeezed at one point when she was coming out, so when she came out, she was in a bit of shock. Because of where I was in my room, and the equipment was on the other side, my midwife had to make the decision to clamp and cut her cord and take her over to their equipment to give her a little bit of help which was very scary. She didn't end up needing oxygen, but they thought that she might. So she ended up being okay, but it was definitely a scary couple of minutes where I didn't know what was going on. But yeah, she ended up being okay. The only thing I was a little bit disappointed in was the second time around, not being the one who gets to be the one to hold my baby and bring her to my chest and missing out on that experience again.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: But obviously I was amazed that I had done it. I had gotten my home birth, I had gotten my VBAC. I was in shock.Meagan: I can so relate. Sometimes you're so focused on pushing that baby coming out, and then it happens and you're like, am I dreaming that this happen? And you're looking around and you're like blinking and you're like, no, I'm awake. I just did this. I just did this. And you're so excited.Johanna: I was still in La La Land because I had labored so hard for eight hours and yeah, you're out of it and just in disbelief.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Johanna: Like, did this really just happen?Meagan: But it did. It just happened.Johanna: Yeah. So that was a really good feeling. Recovery was like night and day. I could immediately just go and have a nice shower and walk back to my bed and crawl into my bed. It was comfortable and I wasn't in pain. I had mobility, and I could lift my baby up. It was a good feeling. Although I will say that without the epidural, the fundal massage was a really unpleasant experience.Meagan: Yes. So for everyone that doesn't maybe know, fundal massage is something that they do after labor and delivery, they essentially put their hand, sometimes fist. Now it's not like they punch you, but think about a fist. Look at the bottom of your fist. They put the bottom of their fist along your uterus, the top of your uterus. They push down and massage. They push down and they massage. And sometimes they do it three or so times. You take a deep breath, they do it. You take a deep breath, they do it. And why they're doing that is because they're checking to one, make sure your uterus is clamping back down to its normal size right after birth and the placenta is out. It starts doing its job and going boop boop, boop, right back down to its normal size. But sometimes it can get a little boggy or bleeding can occur. So yeah, you want to make sure that. Now, really quick tip. If for some reason your uterus is still staying boggy and not clamping down as much, something you can try to do if you are able is urinate. Go to the restroom. That's a really big thing to help the uterus clamp back down. And even if you have an epidural, sometimes you have to get a straight cath. And if you can't go to the bathroom, sometimes you can get a straight cath to release. But yeah, that is not as friendly when you're unmedicated. But take deep breaths. If you can, get that baby on your chest or hold someone's hand-- your doula, your partner, your midwife, anybody's hand and just take really deep breaths and know that it's okay. It's okay. It doesn't last too long. But yeah.Johanna: So going back to our chat about postpartum.Meagan: Yeah.Johanna: So the recovery of vaginal versus C-section night and day for sure. But I will say that my postpartum with Bailey was way harder than with my first. It had nothing to do with the birth. I think she was asynclitic in my uterus. And so when she came out, she had a pretty bad case of torticollis and a tongue tie which made breastfeeding very difficult. I got mastitis twice in the first four weeks, like a really bad case twice in the first four weeks. I ended up with a bad case of food poisoning at three weeks postpartum.Meagan: Oh no.Johanna: And I had some prolapse symptoms as well. I will say that there were a lot of things happening in the first month, month and a half of my postpartum that I didn't expect and were very intense and difficult. I mean, just for breastfeeding, I was in so much pain that there were many times that I wanted to just give up and be like, nope, never mind. Forget this.So having good lactation support was really crucial.Meagan: Oh yes. And get lactation support before you have your baby. It sounds weird. It sounds really strange to connect with someone about breastfeeding before your baby is born. But oh my gosh, you guys, it's so impactful. I mean, we've talked about it before with The Lactation Network and other IBCLC supports. It's so important. I had similar. So my baby was born be a Cesarean. So in a Cesarean, a baby can also develop torticollis too with the way they are and the way they come out. But my baby had torticollis and she had a tongue tie. So very, very difficult. Challenging for sure and frustrating.It can impact things like mastitis and yeah, I love that you pointed that out. My was recovery all around better, but that doesn't mean my experience was all sunshine and butterflies. I really want to just highlight that one more time, you guys. Vaginal birth doesn't mean your postpartum journey is going to be the easiest. Mine wasn't. My VBAC after two Cesarean birth was not the easiest. It just wasn't. So again, get those resources beforehand. Right?Johanna: Yeah. And I will say, I don't know what I would have done if I wasn't with midwifery care and having them on call for the six-week postpartum because I swear, I called them every second day about something that was going on.Meagan: Well, and that's more unique to home birth too because even with the hospital birth midwives, it's not the same. They usually say, "Oh, I'll see you in six weeks," and you can call. You can call any OB or midwife. You can call any provider, but there's a different level of care and follow-up in that postpartum stage and it's very impactful. It's very, very impactful.Johanna: Oh for sure. Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love everything and I love all these tips. There are so many tips and nuggets along the way. Is there anything else that you would like to drop here for the listeners in regards to home birth or preparing or postpartum or any words of encouragement that you may have?Johanna: I mean, I think that, like I mentioned at the start, just arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can is going to be your best bet to get the outcome that you want and just feel empowered throughout your pregnancy and your birth. So just arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can get your hands on and yeah, getting a good provider, trusting yourself, believing in your body, and setting yourself up for postpartum too because that's an important thing when you're so focused on getting your VBAC is letting the postpartum stuff fall to the wayside.Meagan: Yeah.Meagan: Taking care of yourself afterwards too is important.Meagan: Yes. Taking care of yourself. We don't. We don't take care of ourselves enough, you guys. Really pamper yourself. If that means you have your postpartum doula. If that means you hire a house cleaner to come in every other week. If that means you hire or have family come in to help, just whatever. Light house cleaning or holding baby or playing with toddler. Johanna, she's going to have two, you guys. She's almost on her third, and it's another baby girl.Johanna: Oh, yes. Yes. That's three for three.Meagan: So three baby girls. I mean, you've got your hands full in your postpartum experience.Right. So really do it. I don't want to stereotype women, but sometimes we get into this space of,  we can do it and we don't need to spend money on ourselves and things like that, but this stage of life is so important to invest in yourself. Really, truly invest in yourself because you deserve it. And your sleep and your experience and your mental health, it all matters so much. So yes, you might hire a cleaner and you might be spending that money, but guess what? That's okay. Do it. Johanna: And when you're taken care of, then you're a better mom to your kids.Meagan: Yes, yes. My husband always says, "When mom is happy, everyone else is happy." But really, really, you deserve it. Women of Strength, you deserve to be pampered and loved and supported. So Johanna, thank you so much again for such a powerful episode. I'm so grateful for you. And please keep us posted on this baby number three.By the time this episode comes out, you will have had this little baby girl.Johanna: Yes. I'm due January 4th, so I will definitely be sending you a message when she makes her entrance.Meagan: Please do. Please do. Okay well, thank you so much.Johanna: Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this special episode, Kristin, host of Ask the Doulas podcast and founder of Gold Coast Doulas,  gives tips on building your supportive birth team. Krisin and Meagan talk specifics on HOW to switch providers if you're feeling the push to do so.Once we have our dream team, we're good and don't have to do any more work, right? Nope! We keep educating and preparing ourselves. That's the way to truly get the most out of that dream team. Kristin's book ‘Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby' is a one-stop shop where you can get all of the education you need for pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. Her advice is so valuable for VBAC moms and birth workers, too!Supported: Your Guide to Birth and BabyAsk the Doulas PodcastNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Hello. We have a special episode for you today. We have my friend, Kristin, who is actually the owner of Ask the Doulas Podcast on with us today. She is going to be talking about establishing our birth team and the importance of it. We're going to talk a little bit more about what to expect when we might not find a provider that's supportive and how to navigate it. She's going to talk more about her book and so many things. You guys, I'm really excited. Kristin is a woman who has always had a passion for supporting other women both personally and professionally. In college, Kristin served on the executive committee of her sorority and organized events on campus related to breast cancer and other women's issues. After the birth of her daughter in 2011, a new passion awoke within her. Kristin began reading and studying birth from all perspectives, philosophies, and medical approaches. She joined organizations like The Healthy Kent Breastfeeding Collation and used her event coordinating skills to build and promote the organization and create community awareness. You guys, she has done so many incredible things. Kristin's research has led her to learn more about doulas, and in 2012, she hired doulas herself for the support of her second birth. The level of compassionate care and comfort that she received from her doulas ignited a spark within her and led her down the path of becoming a doula herself. And man, can I connect to this because this is exactly what happened to me. When you guys have a doula who inspires you and touches you and motivates you the way it sounds like Kristin did and I did, even though my doula wasn't a hired doula, she was just a nurse that was a doula for the time being, it does something to you. She earned the certification and became teaching sacred pregnancy classes in 2013. But as you'll see, Kristin is a firm believer in achieving the highest level of education available when providing a service. Shortly after, she earned the following credentials-- you guys, are you ready for this? She's amazing. Oh my gosh. Certified Sacred Doula in 2014. She is a Certified Elite Labor through ProDoula. She is the Elite Postpartum and Infant Care Doula through ProDoula. She's trained in Spinning Babies, Newborn Specialist, Mother Ship, Certified Health Service Provider, certified in VBAC. She is certified in transformational birth and a birth coach for the Birth Coach Method. She is a certified pregnancy and infant loss advocate and certified gift registry expert through Be Her Village, who we will talk about. We both love them so much.She is also an author of a book which we will be sharing more about. It's called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. So without further ado, we are actually going to be skipping a review today and an educational topic because this is such a great episode to be educated and learn more about what Kristin is offering in her community. Okay, my love. Hello. Kristin: Hello.Meagan: We're officially getting going talking about this amazing topic. Tell me what you think about this. I think sometimes people want to assemble this dream team, but they let finances or even partners or other opinions get in the way.Kristin: Yes. Partner comfort level, especially with VBACs is key, or with clients of mine who want their dream is to have a home birth and their partner isn't supportive, so then they say, "Oh, it'll be with the next baby if everything goes well in the hospital." But then if they're a complication, they might risk out of the option of home. I think as consumers, we don't fully appreciate the ability to choose all of our birth and baby team. We can change providers. I switched providers with my first pregnancy early on because I didn't feel like that particular OB was on board with my plans to have an unmedicated hospital birth. I ended up switching to Certified Nurse Midwives and completely changed practices, completely changed hospitals in fact. It's a lot. Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: But it was worth it. And I had the time where it was easier to switch, but I've had clients switch very late in pregnancy. It was harder to find the right office to accept them, but with VBACs, it is crucial to have not just a VBAC-tolerant provider, but someone who is fully on board with your unique desires because we are all individuals.Meagan: Yes. I love that you said your unique desires. Everybody is different. I think it's really important to tell these providers what your desires are. We have a list of questions that we give people in our course and, of course, on the podcast. You can go down that list and check and be like, "Okay, this provider seems pretty supportive," but you guys have to tailor your questions and your provider. You have to tailor it to what your individual unique circumstances and desires are because everyone's is different. I would love to know. You said, I was realizing that this wasn't the right place. What kind of things were you hearing or being told or feeling when you were realizing that maybe your first provider wasn't going to be as supportive and in line with your unique decisions?Kristin: Just when I was talking about my wishes, I could tell that that particular provider liked structure and patience to get that epidural, and so once I started talking about movement, delivering in different positions and some of the things I had researched-- I hadn't yet taken a childbirth class because it was early in pregnancy, but I had done a fair bit of research before knowing what a doula was. I didn't hire doulas until my second. But I could just tell in that gut feeling which I rely on. Again, we're all unique. And yes, I do research, but I make decisions on am I comfortable spending my entire pregnancy with someone who can tolerate me and will say, "Okay"? But I could tell it didn't light her up. So once I found a practice where my nurse-midwife spent time with me, I had longer appointments, I could ask questions, and she was 100% on board with me, and then I was able to meet the other midwives and the OBs who oversaw them throughout the remainder of my pregnancy. I felt very cared for. And again, we are consumers. Whether your insurance pays for everything or you're paying for part of it, you don't get a do-over of your birth, and so it is so important, especially with that first birth to get the care team that aligns with you. That could be everything from a Webster-certified chiropractor, a physical therapist, a mental health therapist to deal with any anxieties that may come up with having a VBAC and getting a lot of fear-filled advice from friends and family members. I find that again, my clients are all unique individuals, and my students in Becoming a Mother Course, and now the readers in my book, have different goals, so I want them to choose the best plan for them. I love that you have worksheets and templates, but knowing that every situation is different whether it's a home birth, a trial of labor, or a hospital birth, that setting is different and the type of provider whether it's a nurse-midwife or an OB practice, how likely is the OB that is very VBAC-supportive going to be attending your birth? Are there 12 providers or are there only 4? And so there's just so many things to factor in when deciding what is important to you.Meagan: Yeah. That point that you just brought up, are there 12 providers? Are there only 4? Does your provider guarantee that they'll be there? These are things that I think a lot of people may not be aware of that because they found their provider. They're feeling good about their provider. They're jiving. They're having the feels, but then they may not be the ones to be there, so there are 11 other options. It feels overwhelming to be like, "Wait, wait. Do I interview all 11?" Yeah, guys. Yeah. You set up visits. It's okay. Go and see if you can meet with those. Make sure that that full team is aligned. It is a lot. That's a lot to take on, but it's okay to rotate and say, "Hey, I saw Dr. Jack last time. I'd like to see Dr. Joe this time," or whatever it may be. Really, really dive in, find out more about your provider's team if they have a team, and make sure that they align with your unique decisions and desires.Kristin: Absolutely. And that goes for doulas as well.Meagan: Oh, yeah.Kristin: So for VBAC clients, I, over the last couple of years, I do all of the matchmaking, I like to call it, between client and the birth doulas and postpartum doulas on my team, in fact. I like to find out what they're looking for. If they are attempting a VBAC, then many times, they're telling me they want a VBAC-certified doula. I have doulas that have gone through your program and are certified through you and other different VBAC trainings. They're not just wanting VBAC experience like in my early days of having Gold Coast Doulas. Now, they're wanting that certification because they know that information is being updated as things change. And there's more evidence for VBACs. They also want more than just, "Oh, I've attended four VBACs." They want the education behind it. So I think that is crucial. I'm not going to match, unless there's no one else available on my team, a client with someone who is not certified as a VBAC doula.Meagan: Yeah, I do the same thing with my group here where they're like, "This is really important to me. I want this specific type of doula." Some of my doulas have taken The VBAC Link course. And so I'm like, "Yep, this would be who I would suggest." But I also want to point out that even if you assemble your dream team doula, and they've got all the education and information on VBAC, and they're up to date, I want to just point out that it doesn't mean that you shouldn't inform yourself that you shouldn't get the information because sometimes I feel like it's easy to want to just hire your provider or your doula or your person and let them who know VBAC kind of help and guide you. But it is really important. You're doing yourself a disservice if you personally do not learn more about VBAC and your options as well and rely only on your provider or your doula.Kristin: 100%. The doula, I mean, unless you're paying her for it, will not be attending every one of your prenatal visits during pregnancy. The education that you have to make informed questions and decisions surrounding your birth plan or birth preference sheet, so those conversations are critical. The more information you have as a patient, the better. And as we all know, unless you're having a home birth, your visits are short even with a nurse-midwife. And so it's important to have those questions and to have time to really express concerns. Or if you're finding that that practice or that provider is not in line with your plans, then you can look at other options. And the hospital-- are VBACs even allowed at the hospital that you plan to deliver at? Are they going to induce? What are the Cesarean rates? And looking at all of the different options, and if you need to consider NICUs, that's always a factor in hospital selection as well.Meagan: Yeah, I'm going to kind of go back to where we were in the beginning where you realized based after your feelings and other things that this provider was not the right provider for you, you then changed to CNMs and had a much better experience. Can you discuss your process of that change? How did you change? Did you find the CNMs, have them request your information from the OB? Did you do a formal breakup with your OB? What suggestions would you give to someone who is wanting to do that? I know that sometimes, you were talking about it, in the end, it's a little harder to find, so that's why we stress so importantly to find your provider from the beginning. But we know that sometimes things change. So can you kind of talk about that process in then assembling that dream and getting the steps to get to that dream team?Kristin: Yes. So for me, I had asked friends about which providers they had worked with. So the original OB, a friend of mine, it was her doctor, and she had a great experience. I just wasn't feeling it. She had a student. We have teaching hospitals in my area, so there was a student in the room. I wasn't feeling like she was 100% on board. I could tell that she was very medically driven. I wanted essentially a home birth in a hospital. So I talked to more friends and did research online, and a friend of mine had used this particular practice. I ended up going with the midwife that delivered her three children, and it worked out beautifully because it was early in pregnancy. That practice had openings. It took me a while because I was changing hospitals and practices completely. My insurance, luckily, covered all of the options. But that's another thing to look into. Does your insurance cover the hospital where the provider you want to switch to delivers that if it is a hospital birth? Of course, you can VBAC at home in certain states. So just looking at all of the factors that would come into play. So for me, it was dealing with the paperwork of switching out of that practice, getting admitted, and going to that initial get-to-know-you visit with a nurse and doing my labs before I got to meet with the midwife that I had wanted to work with. And so it took a bit. I mean, no one likes to deal with the paperwork and the phone calls it takes, but your health is so important and especially again, for VBACs.Meagan: Yeah. So you essentially did all the paperwork and the transfer yourself.Kristin: Yes.Meagan: Okay.Kristin: I made all the phone calls, dealt with insurance and made sure that the initial visit was paid for along with the nurse visit, and then that insurance was comfortable with me.Meagan: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I did, when I switched, because I switched it 24 weeks, my midwife just faxed a request to my OB office. It took them a while to send it. We had to ask five times which I think probably would have been faster if I, like you, made the phone calls and did all the things, but I was like in this weird, vulnerable spot of like, I don't want to go back there.Kristin: Right. You don't want to deal with it.Meagan: Yeah, I don't want to deal with it.Kristin: Even just talking to the front desk.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. So we waited for it and they eventually got it. But I think that that's important to note. You guys can make the calls too. You can call and say, "Hey, I'd like to request my records to be printed out or to be sent to this place." Kristin: Yes, and that's what I did. Because otherwise it's six weeks oftentimes or you have to keep calling. They get lost. so I just handled it. But it can be challenging. And as doulas and certainly VBAC doulas, we know the providers who would be not only tolerant but supportive of VBAC. So we get those questions frequently from potential clients and clients of, am I at the right place? And of course, we support whoever our clients choose to have care from. But there's also, if asked, I will tell them about the practice and my own experience as a doula or the agency's experience. And again, in those large practices, there might be four who are so VBAC-supportive. They love it, but then there might be some physicians who are not as comfortable. They feel that a surgical birth might be the better route to go, ad so there's that. So what I like to do as a VBAC doula is to have my clients talk to their provider. Again, go over a birth plan or birth preference sheet and have them sign off on it. That way, if they don't attend the birth, then the other physicians know that this was approved. It's not just a birth plan that is thrown out there, but it has been discussed. It doesn't work all the time, but it has been helpful for my clients no matter if they're a VBAC client or this is their first baby, and again, they have certain goals that they want to achieve like potentially avoiding an induction unless medically necessary.Meagan: Oh my gosh. So I'm just going to re-touch on that, you guys, because that was really, really, really good advice and something I've actually never done or even thought about or suggested to my own doula practice clients. Get your birth preference sheet or birth plans everyone calls a difference. I call it a birth preference sheet, which is a list of all your preferences that you desire. Go over that with your provider, and have them physically sign it. Physically sign it and date it showing that your provider went over it. And like she said, every provider may not be willing to do that, but I will say, if a provider is willing to do that, that says something to me.Kristin: It does. Yes.Meagan: Yeah. Super powerful. Oh, my gosh. Okay, nugget. Grab it, put it in your pocket, everybody. Sign your birth preference sheet so you can have it and keep that in your bag, so if you do have that random on-call doctor who may not even know you or not be so supportive, be like, "This has already been discussed. We were aware of this. My doctor has signed off." Also, you could maybe ask if your provider could make a copy of that and put it in your chart.Kristin: Right. Because yes, it's not just the one that they have on file, but it's also for the ones that you have, that copy that you're bringing and showing the nurse so the nurse and everyone is on the same page. Meagan: Love that. Kristin: And again, with teaching hospitals, you might have residents in and out. There can be some difficult conversations with VBAC and residents who have never seen a VBAC. We're not fully trained yet to support VBAC, and so they might be making suggestions while the provider is not in that check-in. So every state, again, every area is different. I just happen to be in an area with multiple teaching hospitals.Meagan: Same here. We have seen it where I think, I don't want to say this badly. The VBAC world is a world that can have a lot of negativities in it, negative things and big words like uterine rupture. We've got residents who may be coming in and may be training under a provider who has seen a uterine rupture or has maybe molded an opinion on VBAC and is projecting their opinion to that student. Whether or not they're consciously doing it or not, they're saying their opinion, and those opinions might morph that resident's opinion into negative for VBAC. You never know. And so they might be doing things or be more hesitant in areas that they don't need to be, but they are.Kristin: Yeah, it's such a good point. And as you mentioned, I mean, we don't know the traumas that our nurses and medical team, even home birth midwives, have experienced, and they carry that with them. And how can they not? Even as doulas, we witness, but we don't have the liability and the medical training to make it, but we are witnesses of trauma and have our own healing to do to be able to better move on and support the next client. So certainly keeping that in mind that they may have seen something that alters the way they practice.Meagan: Yeah.Kristin: It's not just fear of lawsuits.Meagan: It's really not. It's not. There's a provider here in Utah who is literally so scared of vaginal birth herself. She scheduled all of her Cesareans, even the very first one from the get. She never had trial of labor or TOL. She just doesn't. So can you imagine what her Cesarean rate may be? And she kind of reminds me of the provider you're talking about. She really likes it just so controlled. Come in, start Pitocin, and get the epidural. She likes those things, which we know can sometimes lead to those Cesareans. And so really also discussing with your provider, how do you feel about birth? Have you had babies? And then we have another OB who's like, "I work in the hospital, and I love the hospital, and I trust the hospital system, but I actually gave birth at home with all three of my babies," and so really getting to know your provider, I think, is so good. Okay, let's keep going on this topic of assembling your dream team of experts when planning for birth and baby. What other things would you suggest to our Women of Strength?Kristin: Yes. So as we know, birth is as physical as it is mental, and just the opposite, as mental as it is physical. So preparing with a childbirth class, a comprehensive class, even if you took one before, use the lens of your goal of attempting a VBAC, a trial of labor. And so for us, we happen to teach HypnoBirth at Gold Coast Doulas and that mind/body connection that HypnoBirthing or a gentle birth offers where it's more of using the visualization the way an athlete would in preparing for a marathon or a triathlon, you are using things to reduce fear. You're understanding all of your options. It's very partner involved. I think taking a comprehensive childbirth class, whichever meets your individual goals, is great. That childbirth instructor is a great person to add to your birth and baby team. And then moving your body. So taking a fitness class that is appropriate for pregnancy. So prenatal yoga, there are Barre classes for pregnancy. There are prenatal belly dancing classes, whatever it is. Meagan: Aqua aerobics.Kristin: Yeah, water aerobics are amazing. And so thinking about baby's position and helping labor to go on its own or be quicker. There's acupuncture, acupressure, the Webster-certified chiro for positioning or body balancing experts, so many different options. But I am a big fan of educating yourself and preparing because as you mentioned earlier, Meagan, a doula is not your end all, be all. Just because we have the information and the training, we can't think for you. We don't want to think for you. The more informed you are, the more likely you're going to feel like birth didn't happen to you this time around and you were a direct participant, even if you end up having a surgical birth again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. So talking about courses, you guys, we have our VBAC course. This VBAC course goes into VBAC, the stats about VBAC, the history of VBAC, the history of Cesarean, the stats of Cesarean, the questions, finding the provider, a little bit more of the mental prep, and physical prep. But when it comes to a childirth education course like with the course that she has, they're on different levels. I actually suggest them both.Kristin: Yes, me too. Absolutely.Meagan: But it's so important to know the information that is in your course. I know you go even past preparing for birth and then birth and then postpartum. You go into all of it. We're going to talk more about it. But you guys, we as doulas, love getting information and we love sharing information. But like she said, we don't want to be the only one that knows the information in a team. When our clients come in, at least here in my group, when our clients come in and they are fully educated and we're like, yes. And then we can come in with our education and our experience and knowledge, you guys, it is a powerhouse team. It is a powerhouse team. We have clients who, when they take child birth education classes like yours, they are able to advocate more for themselves. They feel stronger to stand up and say, "Hey, thank you so much, but no thanks" or "Maybe later," when our clients who haven't had that childbirth education or just any information other than maybe what we're providing, which is great, but not enough in the full length of pregnancy, it's a little harder. We have to try to encourage those clients a little bit more because it's harder for them because they don't know everything. We're there to help guide them and help advocate for them and educate them, but it is very different.Kristin: It is. It's so different. And I feel like, again, partners, especially male partners, want to fix things. They don't want their love to feel any pain, and so they may have the fear of a VBAC. So taking a VBAC class course, having a VBAC doula, giving information is just as helpful, if not more for the partner and their comfort level and to have them fully get on board because they may be resisting and just going along for the ride, but if you can get them to be an active participant in education, then they're going to be able to help you. And sometimes in labor, we get to a point in transition where we can't fully speak for ourselves. But if our partner understands, is educated and on board, and if there's time to talk through the risks and benefits and alternatives with your doula, then yes. But sometimes decisions have to be made quickly, and so for that partner to be informed and educated is crucial.Meagan: So crucial. It's so powerful. My husband-- he was not so on board. He was like, "Whatever. I don't care. You can go to the courses. You can do these things."Kristin: And that's very typical.Meagan: It's very typical. And I did. I did do those things. When I said, "Hey, I'm going to birth out-of-hospital," and he was like, "No," I was like, "Well, sorry. I've done the education. I know this is really where my heart is pulling." We touched on this in the beginning how partners really can influence decision making. And in no way, shape or form am I trying to say partners are terrible or don't listen to your partner or anything like that. That's not the goal of what we're saying is have an educated partner. Know that you can assemble a birth team, like a provider, a chiropractor, a massage therapist, a doula, a PT, or whatever it may be, but don't forget about your partner. Your partner is a huge part of your team, and if they're not educated and they're not able to help guide you through, or if they're not being supportive, find ways to help them be supportive by taking a course with them and helping them realize, oh, VBAC actually isn't that scary. Oh, that chance isn't really 50+%. Oh, okay. Hospital birth, out-of-hospital birth. Yeah. They're both reasonable, and really understanding that.Kristin: Absolutely. And sometimes I find that my students and clients may have not had success with breastfeeding the first time and potentially didn't take a class. So if their goal is to breastfeed or pump exclusively, then taking a breastfeeding class and having that IBCLC as a resource for their dream team in case it's needed because many times, you have the lactation consultant who's teaching the class, at least in my practice, and then they're also available for say, a home visit or a hospital visit, depending on where the class is taking place. And so I think that that's something. Even if it isn't your first baby and maybe you breastfed for a little bit or had supply issues or challenges after a surgical birth, that it is important to consider any education during pregnancy because it's much harder to get that education after you have your baby.Meagan: It really is. I love that you're touching on that, really getting into all the things and having your partner go with you. I remember I was like, I had a C-section, and I was swollen and tired, and I couldn't move very well. I was sore and all the things that sometimes come with C-sections. I'm trying to nurse, and I'm engorged.  I don't feel my letdown, and I'm just so engorged. I don't know. All I know is I have really big, swollen boobs. It's all I could tell. I couldn't latch. My husband was like, "That's it. We're going to the store. We're getting formula." Formula is fine. Not anything against formula.Kristin: He's trying to fix the problem and make you feel better.Meagan: Yep, yep, yep. Trying to fix that problem. But I was like, "No, I really want to breastfeed." At that point, I wasn't able to communicate. Like, I didn't get the birth I wanted. I already felt like a failure because I was actually told that your body failed. That's what I was told. So I was already dealing with this mindset that I failed. I had a C-section. I didn't want a C-section. And now the only thing I could try to do because I couldn't take that C-section back is breastfeed my baby. I wanted to breastfeed my baby. And again, we didn't take those childbirth education classes. He for sure didn't download any apps. I at least had an app trying to help me at that point, but he didn't understand. He didn't understand.And I'm like, no.I'm crying, and I'm like, "Please, just help me. I don't know what I need to help me." And he's like, "No, we're going to the store. Our baby's mad. You're crying." He was trying to fix that problem. But if we had already done that information education before and found that IBCLC before and him understanding how important that was to me, he could have been like, "I'm going to call her IBCLC. I'll get her over here right away."Kristin: Exactly. The last thing you want to do is go into the hospital to see a lactation consultant there if you can even get in.Meagan: Exactly. Yeah. So it just could have been so much smoother. Sometimes I feel like we were against each other at that point because he didn't have any education. With our first, I really didn't have much education. But with our third, it was like he really didn't have a lot of education. and I was over-the-top educated, so I was saying these things, and he was thinking I was demeaning him or saying he was stupid because it was just this weird thing. So if we can just come together with our partners and get all the education and get it all before really, find out a postpartum plan. Find out a breastfeeding plan. Right? Find out what you want. You guys, it just makes the pregnancy journey and the postpartum journey, so much better. It truly makes you feel like you're on that team because you are.Kristin: Yes. Absolutely. And certainly, I mean, you mentioned apps. Not everyone has the means or even lives in an area where they can take a comprehensive five, six, ten-week childbirth class. There are, obviously, online classes. There are some Zoom virtual ones where students are all over the place. But there are watching birth videos and YouTube and in my book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, we talk about apps, so count the kicks. Especially for VBACs, doing the self-monitoring if there's fear of fetal movement and any sort of distress during the end of the pregnancy, then really understanding your own body and doing monitoring. It's not just when you're in your provider's office being monitored. You can make a difference yourself. So having some different apps and some education on your own, listening to podcasts like yours to get this information and reading books. So there's more than if you can't afford a childbirth class like HypnoBirthing, there are still ways that you can get educated and your partner can get educated. So yeah, take a look at all of your options and your budget.Meagan: Yeah, and we talk about this all the time because I love them, but Be Her Village is a really great resource where you can go fill out a registry and, hopefully, get some help for these things. Childbirth education classes, doulas, IBCLCS. But I want to dive a little bit more into your book, actually, while we're talking about different resources. We talked about the childbirth education, but can we talk about more about Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby and how this came into fruition and what all is included in this amazing book.Kristin: Okay, Meagan. So essentially the book came out of our online course. Becoming a Mother launched in the early pandemic when everything was shut down and our classes all had to go virtual. I was fortunate to be in a state where doulas who were certified were able to work thanks to our governor. So we were working, but there was still a lot of isolation even with our clients' prenatal visits. They wanted a connection, so we launched this course. We had talked about and did three live launches, got VBAC from our students, pulled people in from all the moms' groups before creating the first draft of the course. And then the course just led to the book. So the content in Becoming a Mother is what is in the book in a different format. So in Becoming a Mother, we have expert videos, so VBAC specialists and Webster-certified chiropractors talking about what that is. Pelvic floor physical therapists, car seat safety technicians, cord blood banking donation centers.Meagan: Awesome.Kristin: We have the experts speaking for themselves-- a pediatrician. And so in the book, anything that is medical and out of the scope of a doula, we had expert contributors, so I have a pediatrician friend of mine who contributed a newborn procedure section of the chapter and a prenatal yoga studio instructor, she's also a certified body balancer. She contributed to some of the fitness options in the book, and a mental health therapist who is PMA focused and certified contributed to the mental health chapter. We have an IBCLC that contributed to the feeding chapter, and so a lot of involvement, and then sharing client stories throughout the book and then our own wisdom. We have doula tips and wisdom at the end of every chapter. Meagan: Wow.Kristin: And so as clients were asking me for books over the years, I couldn't find anything that was positive. I felt like there were a lot of, this is your cry-it-out method for sleep because we have a whole chapter on sleep and it's very attachment-focused. It's like, one way for feeding, and we wanted our clients, with their unique choices for themselves, to have a book that supports people who want to plan surgical birth like that OB and that's their comfort level and a book for the same person who wants a home birth. You don't have to buy five different books. It's not always Ina May which is a great book but not for everyone. All of her different-- she's got Spiritual Midwifery and so many different books. It is great for grandparents to read and partners but is targeted to the mother or the mother-to-be and is great in preconception in that early planning. But also, we wanted to make it similar to the course and just as valuable for seasoned bombs as it is for new moms. And again, it's affirming. We tried not to have any fear-filled information in a simple, easy-to-read guide that you can pull out for reference and a lot of different, again, apps and podcasts and books to read and resources and evidence-based information about Black maternal health and where we're at in the country now and how the pandemic impacted birth especially, but also that postpartum time.Meagan: Wow. That book sounds amazing. So amazing. And you guys, you can get it in every form, even Audible. I'm a big listener. I like to listen to books. Kristin and Alyssa actually recorded it. She was telling me they had 10+-hour days recording this this book. You can get it, and we will make sure to have the links for that in the show notes. I found it at goldcoastdoulas.com/supportedyourguidetobirthandbaby.Kristin: It's there. You can find it off that website or it has its own page. It's supportedbook.com. Meagan: Supportedbook.com, okay. We'll make sure that's all in the show notes, so you guys can grab that. Okay, so you know a lot. Obviously, you wrote a whole book and a whole course and all this stuff. Is there anything else that you would like to share in regards to just our final assembling of that powerhouse birth team?Kristin: So don't forget, I know we're talking a lot about pregnancy and birth prep, but don't forget your recovery phase. And you had talked about your own personal struggles with breastfeeding engorgement, recovery after a surgical birth. If you have, well, you do have other children at home with VBACs, and so looking at childcare, postpartum doula support, or what kind of family support you're going to have after, it's more than just meal plans and prepping the nursery. We strongly believe that as part of your dream team, the postnatal team is crucial as well. So whether it's a lactation consultant, a pelvic floor physical therapist, if you want to get back to running marathons again or are leaking. I mean, we can all use pelvic floor physical therapy. It's not just the athletes who they support. Some people, again, with building a home or other life occurrences like a wedding or preparing for college, you look at your budget. You look at your main goals. For a wedding, it might be food. For postpartum, it might be sleep. So hiring a sleep consultant when baby's old enough or an overnight postpartum doula or a newborn care specialist. What are your priorities? And take the budget. What might be paid for by insurance or, a health savings flex spending plan that you need to run down? What might be gifted? Like you mentioned, Be Her Village. There are different ways you can budget. And in the book, we talk about all of that and looking at employer plans, how to navigate that, what questions to ask your HR department about other members, like a chiropractor, could that be covered? A therapist? Oftentimes, we don't know our own benefits and certainly, I don't know my husband's benefits fully, so to be able to investigate that early in pregnancy and figure out what might be fully or partially paid for.Meagan: Wow. That is incredible itself. I feel like that's a whole other conversation of, how to navigate how to do that. So definitely go get the book, you guys, because it sounds like there are just so many things in there that are honestly crucial to know. really, really important things to know. You are incredible. Kristin: So are you.Meagan: I just enjoy chatting with you so much. Anything else? Yeah, anything else you'd like to add?Kristin: And obviously, take taking trainings and courses. If I know you have doulas who listen. It's not just parents.Meagan: Yes.Kristin: As doulas go through The VBAC Link. Get certified as a VBAC doula. Keep up with information that is ever-changing. We all want to be the best doula for each of our clients, but I am a firm believer in continuing our own education and that more and more of our clients are choosing to attempt VBACs, and so the more information you can get as a professional, the better you're able to support. It's just not the number of VBACs you've attended anymore. It's clients wanting that knowledge so you can be busier and also a more effective doula by getting that training and then going through the certification process that you offer.Meagan: Yeah, have a directory actually with birth doulas where people can go and find it because when Julie and I created this company way back in the day, we knew that we were just two people here in Utah. We couldn't change the VBAC world. We could give as much information as we could. We could share the podcast. We could do those types of things. But when it comes to birth workers, we wanted to reach birth workers everywhere. It's so great that we have and we're still having more people come on because they're helping people so much. I mean, we know you have doulas that do it all the time. These doulas do help and there are actual stats on doulas that do it. But I agree. If you're a birth worker, stay up to date. Be in the know. Know what's going on because you will likely need to help guide your client through it. Kristin: Then you can charge more. So take that investment in a training like The VBAC Link, and then you're able to charge more because you're more experienced. You have more certifications. So don't look at like, oh, I don't have any money for continuing education. Look at how that's going to change your career.Meagan: Yeah, and I think sometimes too you can charge a little bit more, take less clients, and be more personal with those clients and dive into it. Especially because we do know that VBAC does take some extra stuff that goes on with VBAC. There's some extra work to be worked through. There are some extra things and so yeah, I love that.Kristin: Well, thank you so much for having me on Meagan, I loved our chat.Meagan: Thank you. You as well. As always, I loved our other chat as well. We have to keep going. I think I'm going to order your book today and get going on that. Even though I'm not a mom preparing, I think this would be such a great book to suggest to all of my clients. So thank you for sharing. Thank you.Kristin: Yeah. My secondary audience is certainly anyone who works with families in the birth and baby space, but it is targeted again, just similar to my podcast. It's like I have the listener of the pregnant individual and family, but also birth workers. The book is similar. Thank you for ordering.I appreciate it. Meagan: Yes. And can you also tell everybody where to find you not just in your book, but Instagram, podcast, and all of the social medias?Kristin: So my podcast is Ask the Doulas. You can find us on all the podcast players and you were a guest recently, so very fun. And certainly, we're at Gold Coast Doulas on everything from Pinterest to YouTube to Facebook to Instagram. I don't have separate social sites for my book because I honestly don't have time for that.Meagan: That's okay. Yeah, it's a package. It comes with everything, so you don't need to have another book page. Well, awesome. Well, thank you again so much.Kristin: Thank you. Have a great day.Meagan: You too.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Liz, a mama of two from Long Island, New York, joins us today sharing her experience with preeclampsia, an unexpected C-section, and her successful VBAC with her second. Liz had a perfect health history and never had any surgeries before her C-section. It was so frustrating to feel so out of control. In between her birth and her second pregnancy, Liz's mom unexpectedly passed away. She shares how she has been processing the intense grief from her mother's passing and from the positive birth experience she wasn't able to have. Liz made lots of changes going into her VBAC birth including diet, switching providers, and choosing to birth at home!Liz's DoulaCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan Hello, everybody. We have our friend, Liz, from New York with us today. She is a mom of two and almost two years old. Right? Your VBAC baby?Liz: Yes.Meagan Almost two years since your VBAC baby.And then an almost six-year-old. And yeah, like I said, she lives in New York, and she's going to be sharing her stories with you guys today. With her first birth, she actually had preeclampsia, so she's gonna talk more about that. And then with her second birth, she didn't have preeclampsia. I think this is an important thing to talk about because we know that having preeclampsia again is a possibility, and it might be slightly increased if you've had it, but it doesn't mean you will. So I'm hoping that we can talk a little bit more if you did do anything to try to avoid it. The second one, we'll talk more about that in a little bit. But knowing that it's still okay. If you have preeclampsia, you can still VBAC. Now, in her second one, she didn't have preeclampsia, but you can still VBAC if you have preeclampsia. So we're going to talk about that a little bit after your first birth too, because I want to know more. All right. We do have a Review of the Week today, and this is by jess2123. It says "Best Podcast for VBAC". It says, "I listened to the podcast after my son's birth. I learned so much that I knew I wanted a VBAC for my second birth. When I became pregnant again, I would listen to this podcast during my walks. Thanks to the wealth of knowledge that I gained, I had my unmedicated VBAC in 2023." Congratulations, Jess, on your VBAC, and thank you so much for your review. I know this year we're tossing it up between reviews and educational pieces, but I just do want to remind you really quickly that if you haven't left us a review yet, we would love it. You can push "pause" right now and listen or leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can go over to Google. Google "The VBAC Link", and leave us a review there. These reviews really do help us and bring us so much joy. So without further ado, I want to turn the time over to you.Liz: Thank you so much. I guess every VBAC story starts with the Cesarean story, or at least there's one in there. My pregnancy journey did start with a Cesarean as far as the first birth. As Meagan mentioned, I am a mom of two. With my first son, I fortunately have been reproductively very healthy and otherwise healthy my entire life. I was able to track everything. I had regular cycles and really no issues there, so I feel really, really blessed in that regard. I was able to get pregnant pretty easily. I believe I got pregnant in about February 2018 for the first time. I found out mid-March after I tested in my bathroom and just ran out with the test to my husband, nothing super special. I think I was just shocked. I remember I had gone to a St. Patrick's Day parade and felt so tired that I said to my friend, "I'm going to go home and nap in between that and another event." They were all like, "Why are you napping?" I was like, "I don't know, I'm just really tired." I took the pregnancy test to rule out pregnancy. It was immediately positive which was amazing. My EDD, my estimated due date, was supposed to be Thanksgiving that year, so it was November 22nd which was Thanksgiving 2018. That just made me laugh because I was like, wow, what a far cry from Thanksgiving Eve spent even a decade previous. But yeah, so my pregnancy started out pretty status quo, I would say. I definitely experienced that nausea. My morning sickness was definitely an all-day thing, so it was a little tough. I think it threw me for a loop because I didn't know what to expect. I had always wanted to eat healthier, especially being pregnant, but it was like my body would not allow me to eat what I wanted or what my brain wanted me to eat. It was a lot of carbs to start out. I know that's pretty common. I remember when I went for my first appointment, I had called an OB's office. I'm trying to think. I think I had gone for one well-woman visit before, but I had two friends, actually three friends who had delivered with this OB and had good experiences, so I figured I would give it a try. The funny thing is, pretty much from the jump, I could tell that we weren't very aligned. I didn't really see eye-to-eye with him, but he had this nurse practitioner who was wonderful, and I feel like she drew people in because she was just very nurturing and calming, and she just had that great energy. I knew, obviously, she wasn't going to be at my birth, but I still stayed there.Meagan Oh yeah. So can we talk about that a little bit? So you had one provider that you're like, "I don't know, our energy doesn't match." And then one that you're like, "Our energy totally matches." But then they wouldn't be birthing with you. So tell me a little bit more of what that provider was that wasn't matching your energy.Liz: Yeah. So I guess because I had always been so healthy, my experiences with medical professionals were very limited. I had just gone to doctors for routine checkups my entire life, and everything was always fine. I think because I wasn't very experienced in the medical world, I almost had this aversion to it. I just was like, they're there if there's an emergency, but it'll be fine. Everything will be fine. I'm trying to do this as naturally as possible. He seemed very old school. I don't know how to describe it, just very set in his ways. I remember, I'll circle back around, but towards the end of the pregnancy when I had finally gotten the gall to tell him that I really wanted to try and do this unmedicated because I was so nervous to say that, he was like, "Well, don't expect this baby to just fall out of you. You're a first-time mom."Meagan Wait, what?Liz: He literally said that to me. And I was like, "Okay, I didn't think that." Meagan: I wasn't saying that. Liz: Yeah, I wasn't saying that I didn't think I wouldn't have to work hard. That's not what I'm saying. So just comments like that. The bedside manner just didn't seem very nurturing. He was very by the book, quick appointments, and asking me his little checklists of items, and that was it, whereas I felt like his nurse practitioner was very warm, had great bedside manner, and really just cared about mothering the mother in that situation. It wasn't just about the baby and how I was going to give birth or how I preferred to give birth. It was the entire experience. I remember at one point, she even said, "Obviously, there is a need for testing certain things and for keeping an eye on everything, but I really just feel like if we left women more alone to go through their pregnancies, they might be better off because we're so hands-on in the United States, and it just causes sometimes more anxiety throughout a time that's supposed to be really beautiful."So she did mention that she reminded me of, I don't know, a woman who crouched down in the field and gave birth to her babies in the woods. That's who she reminded me of. I don't know if that's the truth for her. I never did ask anything about her birthing experiences, but that's who she reminded me of. Just super warm and nurturing. I think also I maybe just aligned more with a female provider. It could have been just that too.Meagan: Yeah, it could have been. But I mean, what you were saying, comments like that, if I'm being super straight, we've interviewed providers on here that have come across really great, and then the more I've interviewed them, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if I like that. I don't know."That can just happen. I think that's where it comes with vetting your provider and going with who makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But at the same time you're in this place where you're like, well, we've got this medical. We'll see how it goes. I've got this to also like, I've got this warm, fuzzy, filling-my-cup over here. So it seems like it's an okay match, right?Liz: Yeah. And I also manipulated it to the point where I would only make appointments when she was available throughout my pregnancy where the office was like, "You have to see the OB. You have to. He is going be the one who's attending your birth." I'm just like, "But I don't want to. I don't want to do that."Meagan: Yeah.Liz: I just stuck with the practice, I think, because I was nervous. I was new to it and like you said, I was getting my warm and fuzzy cup filled by that nurse practitioner's presence. Things progressed. I finally outgrew that morning sickness. By the second trimester, it was week 12 or 13 and it let up, and I was feeling good. I was pretty energetic. I was doing yoga on a somewhat regular basis. Nutritionally, I do want to mention because I think this does play a role in how things may have gone with the preeclampsia. But nutritionally, I was actually coming off of a vegetarian diet. I had been a vegetarian for a few years. I had gotten really deep into yoga in the early 2010s, and I became a vegetarian when I was doing teacher training for that. So I was purely vegetarian for a few years, and then I started integrating poultry back into my diet. I ate very little because my husband also doesn't consume a lot of meat, so we just didn't eat a lot of meat. I feel like I'm already a picky eater even as an adult. I definitely was as a child, but even as an adult, I still have things that I just don't like, so I feel like my diet was pretty limited, and I perhaps was not getting the nutrients that I needed, especially when my body underwent this or got pregnant and was going through this stressful event.Meagan: Yeah. Growing a placenta and a baby. Yeah, it needed its nutrients.Liz: Yeah. So I feel like during my pregnancy, especially once I started to feel good again, I ate whatever I wanted. So that whole like, I'm just going to eat so healthy, I was just like, yeah, no. I'm eating for two. I totally knew that's not what you're supposed to do. Meagan: I did the same thing. Liz: Yeah. I was like, whatever. I'm feeling great. I'm going to eat it. It's there. I'm going to eat it. So I get to my 20-week anatomy scan. I'm not even sure if it was exactly at 20 weeks, and everything goes well. Fortunately, no complications with the baby. Oh, I had also gotten a NIPT to find out the sex of the baby, so I knew I was having a boy. The anatomy scan did validate that. But that week, I don't know if it was right before or right after my anatomy scan, I noticed that I was starting to swell just on my right side of my body. My right foot was swollen. My right ankle leg was a little swollen. I remember reaching out to my social media friends. I just put out a status like, "Hey, pregnant lady here. I don't really know what's going on. Is this normal? Is this something I should bring up to my provider? What do you guys think?" There were plenty of people who were like, "No, it's totally normal to be swollen at that point." I even said, "It's only on one side though. It's weird."Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Liz: So they were like, "Just elevate your feet. See what happens." It would always go down, but it was just odd that I happened to notice just the swelling on one side of the body. So definitely interesting. Yeah. So I keep going. I'm getting bouts of pretty much every pregnancy symptom, but it would always be very short-lived. I definitely had some reflux, short-lived. I got sciatic pain so bad one day that I couldn't get out of the car. I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat and I said to my husband, "I can't walk on my right leg right now because of my sciatic nerve." So I was doing all these exercises to try and get the baby off my nerve and all of that, and everything just waxed and waned. Nothing was long-lived by any means. So I get to 30 weeks. I think it was at my 30-week appointment, and I believe it was the medical assistant who come in and took my blood pressure and wait like they always do. I don't know if it was her or the nurse practitioner who said that I had my first high blood pressure reading. Like, "Oh, it's elevated a little bit." And I was like, "Oh, that's so strange. I've been a 120/80 girl this entire time, and my whole life, I've never had blood pressure issues." And they're like, "Okay, well it's something to keep an eye on. Let's see. We're going to let you lay on your side, and see if we can have it come down. We'll take it at the end of the appointment again." And it did. It would come down, but they definitely were like, "We're going to keep this in our back pocket, and we might have to have additional monitoring if this progresses." I didn't really know what high blood pressure and pregnancy could mean, so of course, I go to Dr. Google like a good pregnant lady does, right?Meagan: Yep. A lot of us, I'm guilty.Liz: Guilty. Yeah. I was like, okay, so it could be hypertension in pregnancy or it could turn into preeclampsia. I was reading all the things, how this could turn and what that all meant. So in the back of my head, I always thought like, okay. I'm aware of what could indicate preeclampsia, but that's not going to be me. I am a healthy person, right? I've always been healthy my entire life. There shouldn't be any issues while I'm pregnant. And that wasn't the case, unfortunately. But I did go in a few more times, and I did get elevated blood pressure readings. So I don't know what week I was, but I know it was the beginning of October. I saw this other nurse practitioner who was not warm and fuzzy. She was new to the practice and she saw me. She took my pressure, and you could see the alarm in her face, but she wasn't saying much. This stuck with me to this day. It's just so crazy. She handed me this paper. The hospital that I was delivering at is a small community hospital, but it's affiliated with this Catholic healthcare system where I live, so they have a few different hospitals that are also within that same system. She just gave me this paper that had a listing of all these numbers for these different departments at these hospitals, and she just said, "You need to call them and make an appointment." And I'm like, "I have literally no idea what this is about." She's like, "Your pressure is high. You need to go make an appointment with them," but that's all she said to me. Meagan: For what? Yeah. Liz: Yeah, what is happening right now? I remember even that day, she asked me about my face. She was just like, "Is your face swollen? Does your face normally look like that?" I was like, "I have a very round face. I have big cheeks. To me, my face doesn't look different." Yeah. So she handed me that paper, told me to call, and like the good patient I am, I was like, "Sure, I'll call." So I called. I found out it was maternal-fetal medicine, which for those of you out there that don't know what that is, that's a high-risk doctor, and I had no idea. So this is my first experience with that. I did call. I made an appointment, and my OB office had me do a 24-hour urine drop or urine drip, however you want to call that. Meagan: Urine catch? Urine catch, probably?Liz: Yeah, so for those of you who don't know what that is, they give you a jug from a lab, and you have to put your urine into that jug for an entire 24 hours. They test it, and they're checking to see if there's any protein that is spilling into your urine because that could indicate decreased kidney function. Meagan: Preeclampsia. Yeah.Liz: Yeah. That is a symptom of preeclampsia. So I did do that. I went and saw MFM, and in the office there, my pressures were labile. They even called them that-- labile. It had elevated a little bit, probably in the 130s over 90s, but then by the end of the appointment, it had come down. My labs for that urine catch did indicate that there was protein present, but it wasn't within a diagnosable threshold. It was below that lab threshold, so I basically wasn't diagnosable. But they were like, "Now we're going to watch you." Most people like to see their babies on ultrasounds. That's an exciting thing. I became so fed-up with having to go in. I was, at that point, a frequent flyer. I was going in weekly earlier than a pregnancy that wasn't having any sort of complications. I was getting not only an ultrasound, but an NST every time I went in, so I'd have to lay there for 45 minutes while they looked at the baby's heart tones and everything. Yeah, at that point, I was just really stressed out because I was like, is that what this is turning into? But I don't have preeclampsia. I think I also saw my OB within that timeframe and he mentioned, "If this progresses, we will be doing a 37-week induction." And I was like okay, so I'm going to keep that in mind. But again, this isn't going to progress to that because I'm healthy and we're going to make it past 37 weeks. I probably wouldn't get the type of delivery that I wanted. And that's probably something I should mention. If I was induced at 37 weeks, I was preparing to have an unmedicated birth, a vaginal birth, and I was even taking a HypnoBirthing class to try and labor as long as I could at home. My whole thing was that I didn't want to go to the hospital until I needed the hospital or until I felt I needed the hospital. So here I am thinking, okay. I want this unmedicated, low-intervention birth, but I'm having all these interventions right now because they need to monitor me. There's some sort of issue that might be brewing. Yeah. I already said I went to MFM and all of that. My symptoms, at that point, were mostly swelling. I was getting very swollen at this point. I had that pitting edema in my legs, so I could press my finger into my leg. Meagan: It stayed. Liz: It stayed, and then my feet were like little loaves of bread. My feet will never forget what they went through. My husband would just massage them every single night, trying to get the fluid to move out of my tissues. It was crazy. I had another experience with a different OB who was not my OB, but I was out at a family event at this restaurant, and this woman approached me, told me she was an OB, and asked me if I was okay because my legs and my feet did not look so great.Meagan: What?Liz: Yeah. I was just standing in the lobby minding my business, and she's like, "Are you okay?" as if I'm not being monitored, but do you think I'm just going through this free and unaware of what's happening? Yeah. So that was interesting. She said that she was an OB. Yeah. So I went for weekly NSTs, the ultrasounds, and everything looked great with the baby. He was never under any sort of distress. No concerns of intrauterine growth restriction, nothing like that, but my pressures just kept being labile. I actually borrowed a blood pressure cuff so I could monitor at home. There were some mornings where I'd lay down on the couch after I woke up, and my blood pressures were reaching into those like 140s over 90, 91 maybe. I just would cry. I was just hysterical. Like, why is this happening? I don't want to go to labor and delivery right now. I don't want to be monitored. I'm already being monitored so much. There were probably some weeks towards the end where it was more than once that I went into my OB's office for monitoring. So fortunately, we made it through that 37-week mark. We made it all the way to, essentially, the end. And we get to Thanksgiving Eve, right? So my due date is the next day. I'm at 39 and 6. This was one of those appointments where they said, "You have to see the OB." I know I just kicked and screamed, not really, but in my head like, "F"ine, I'll see him. So the medical assistant comes in, takes my pressure and my weight, doesn't say anything, and leaves the room. He comes in, takes my pressure in my weight, and he asks me to meet him in his office.Meagan: Really?Liz: Yes. So I get myself dressed out of the gown that they had given me, and I go meet him in this fancy office. And he's like, "Your pressure is very high today, very high. So you're going to be going to labor and delivery straight from here." He's like, "I have a few meetings that I have to attend to here, but I will meet you over there in a few hours." And I was like, obviously, on the verge of tears. I'm just like, "Can I please stop home and get my stuff? Like, I have bags, I have a dog."Meagan: If you can go to your meetings, I can go to my house.Liz: Right. And yeah, my OB's was maybe 12-13 minutes away from my house, and the hospital was about five minutes down the road. So I was just like, "Can I just go home and grab my stuff?" And he's like, "No, no, no. Go straight to the hospital." And he goes, "And you're probably going to have a Cesarean."Meagan: What?Liz: This is after I tell him my natural birth, or my unmedicated, definitely wanting a vaginal birth. I was like, what? Literally, that was when the tears of waterworks really started. I was just like, "there's no shot at me having a vaginal birth?" And he's just like, "Well, I'm going to be putting you on medication to prevent seizures, so you can either labor with that and have it cancel out my induction medication, or you can just be calm and go to a Cesarean." Like, go to the OR, essentially.Meagan: What were your pressures?Liz: 170/110 that day.Meagan: Okay. Okay.Liz: So, high. Meagan: Yeah. But he's like, "You can do this, but it's not going to work, or you could just calm down and do this."Liz: Yeah, yeah. It was like, those aren't options, so that's not really an option. Right? That's what you're telling me. Meagan: Yeah. Liz: Yeah. So I called my mom. I called my husband, frantic. I was just flipping out. I get out of the office, I'm crying in the parking lot telling everybody. They're telling me to go right to the hospital. So, of course, my husband rushes home from work. He was at work. It was a Wednesday, and he got my dog. He had to bring my dog to my mom's, grab our bags to the extent that they were packed, and he met me there. I was crying. I walked myself into the hospital. It was the most surreal thing. I checked myself in knowing that I was going to come out with a human being, which was bizarre. And when I finally got to labor and delivery, my nurse was so sweet, but I was crying so much that she was just like, "Are you going to be okay?" And I was like, "I really want a vaginal delivery." And she's just like, "Honey." She goes, "I understand. I do think he's making the right choice. I do think you're making the right choice," which again, I don't really feel like I had a choice in that.Meagan: Yeah, you're like, "I wasn't really given a choice."Liz: She was also trying to relate. She's like, "I've had three Cesareans. I promise you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay." I was just like, "I've never even had a tooth pulled. I don't know if I could do this."So my husband arrived again. I'm just crying. He's trying to cheer me up, trying to keep our eyes on the prize and the fact that we were going to hopefully have a healthy baby at the end of all this. I want to say between check-in and when my OB arrived and scrubbed himself in, it was probably about three hours. Yeah. And I walked into the OR, another bizarre experience. I just walked in.Meagan: Yeah. Yep.Liz: Okay, so everybody scrubs in. There's a whole host of people in there, including my nurse. I had never had surgery, so they're giving me all the instructions as to how I need to lean forward so that they can put a spinal block, I think, at that point, the anesthesiologist, and it was so bizarre. It felt like the most claustrophobic thing. If any of you have ever had Cesareans, hopefully you can relate to me, but feeling the numbness just go up your legs.Meagan: It is very strange. I walked in for my second one. With my first one I just had an epidural, but the second one I had a spinal.Liz: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, so bizarre. Then, like I had already mentioned I was so swollen, so they had to just take my very swollen-- I felt like a beached whale-- body parts and put them onto this operating table because I couldn't move once. Obviously, the spinal had activated. So that was bizarre. But my husband, I mean, this man is the calmest person and the nicest person I know. Thank God for him and his presence on that day. He kept me nice and calm. Everybody was really, really nice in the OR. The only thing I happened to notice at one point was they had my blood pressure cuff on. That's why I'm here, right? Because my blood pressures are so hig,h and it had slipped down to my wrist, so I had my arms out. I don't think my arms were strapped down. I don't remember that. I had them out, and I look over to the extent that I could to the anesthesiologist, like, "Hey, does somebody want to maybe put this cuff on? Because that's why I'm, here. That's why we're in this position right now." But yeah, my husband and I just chatted and laughed the entire surgery. Everything worked out really well with the spinal. I did not feel any pain. They did talk me through to an extent about what I would feel as far as tugging or pulling or pressure. My son was fortunately born really healthy, screaming, great Apgar score, the whole nine. He came, and oh my god, what a feeling. Obviously, I was so emotional because of how the birth had gone and what had led me there. But becoming a parent and seeing your child for the first time, you can't really describe that. It's amazing. I have really nice photos and video that the nurse took. They brought the baby over to me. They did not do skin-to-skin with me. Again, I had all of these birth plans, preferences, and, none of that came to fruition. None of that pertained to my or situation. I was so, so happy and also so sad. I don't know how to describe it. It was like the happiest and saddest day of my whole life up until that point. So recovery was interesting. I feel like I got maybe 5 hours of sleep in the hospital total. I was on a magnesium drip. People had told me that the side effects could be a little bit gnarly with that, but I fortunately didn't find anything abnormal. I think I had so much adrenaline. But I did try to get my son to latch, and he was having a really hard time latching. They had a lactation consultant from the hospital come in and see me, and I could not get him to latch. I happened to notice that his tongue was really tethered, super tethered. I could see the tie was really far forward, and he couldn't lift his tongue. So I kept telling them, I was like, "He can't lift his tongue up the way that I feel like he needs to." They just kept telling me how to hold my own body to try and breastfeed properly. I'm like, "I don't think that that's the problem though." So that was really challenging. They did want me to stay extra time for some monitoring. So the next day was Thanksgiving. I don't think my OB wanted to be there. It was a holiday, right? He took his sweet time coming in because they wouldn't even let me eat. That was the thing. I was on magnesium. They brought breakfast in at like 7:00, and he strolls in at like 10:30. I just watched my breakfast get cold in the corner. So that was interesting. But yeah, I think at that point, if you had had a Cesarean without complications, they were looking at about a 48-hour stay. But they asked me to stay an additional day because my pressures were still labile. They were still elevated. I did get put on-- I can't remember the name of medication, but it was blood pressure medication. I was taking Motrin for pain management, the hospital-grade Motrin for my Cesarean. I cannot even describe what it was like trying to get up and walk around that first time after surgery. It's insane. That was something I didn't expect. But yeah, I didn't get much sleep. The last day that I was there, my dog had gotten into a place in my mom's house that she couldn't get him. He had gotten into something, and she couldn't reach him, so she was flipping out. She called my husband. She didn't call me and just told him, "Listen, you have to come get the dog. I can't get him." So he did. I told him, "It's fine, it's fine, you can leave." While he was gone, I had friends come and visit me. They were still visitors pre-COVID. The covering physician came in. I had my son on Wednesday. Thursday was Thanksgiving and I saw my OB, and then there were covering physicians for Friday and Saturday. So we're at Friday now, Friday evening. He came in and saw me and he's like, "You know what? I might be able to discharge you tonight." I got so excited because I was like, this is my first experience having a newborn baby. My husband is trying to go deal with my dog. How awesome would it be if we could just go home tonight?So I got super excited. He said this right in front of my friends, too. He comes back in a short while later and was like, "I just looked at your chart. I looked at your pressures." He didn't clear out the room, nothing. And he's like, "You know what? I can't discharge you. Not with pressures like this. I can't do that." And he's like, "And the covering physician tomorrow won't be able to discharge you any sooner than late afternoon, early evening because that is when he will be here." I was like, okay. So here I am in my head thinking I could go home tonight, and now you're telling me I might be able to go home tomorrow afternoon or evening. I'm already very hormonal. I'm very emotional. My husband's not here.My friends wound up leaving, and I just sobbed. I just sobbed in my room like, oh my god. this is a nightmare. Why can't my body get it together? Why can't I just have normal blood pressures again?Meagan: Yeah.Liz: Yeah. We did wind up getting discharged the next day, but I remember that physician just being so the last straw for me in that experience. You didn't have to say anything at all, and then you also set it in front of all of my friends.Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah. So you didn't stay with this provider, did you?Liz: I did not stay with this provider.Meagan: For your VBAC? Okay.Liz: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah. I guess I should probably get into that story, right?Meagan: No, this has been great. This has been great. Yeah. Yeah. So you were done. You went home. You're like, last straw, no more, never again.Liz: Yeah. Yeah. And I did have my. My son assessed by a lactation consultant, and she said that was one of the most severe tongue ties that she had ever seen. She did recommend a release. I was four days postpartum at this point. I wound up supplementing with formula which was something I so didn't want to do, but I was just like, this kid is starving. He can't latch properly. I did. I went and saw a specialist, and I had his tongue and lip ties both revised, and it was severe. That was a severe tongue tie. I know people have mixed feelings about that, but he needed it. Even in my opinion, as a lay person.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Liz: But yeah, pretty much immediately I knew I wanted things to be different the following pregnancy and birth. I think I started thinking about my VBAC probably that day. It was probably the day I gave birth to my son. This cannot be how this goes every time.So it took me a really long time to even want to conceive again. Not only did I have all these complicated feelings about my birth because yes, I did have a healthy baby. Yes, I ultimately weaned off of blood pressure medication and my body came back to however you want to phrase normal, but I had had this experience that I was holding onto a lot of trauma from, and unfortunately, my son was four months old and my mom suddenly passed away. So yeah, it was unexpected. It was sudden. I still to the day am shocked that I didn't lose my milk supply, but I was able to pump in the hospital and get my son milk. That is a crazy, surreal experience losing a parent, but I don't think that there's much more cruel than losing someone that you care about so much. My mom and I were so close in a postpartum period that's already complicated by birth trauma. So now I had this grief for my mom. I had this grief for the birth experience I didn't have. I think that largely contributed to me waiting to conceive again. I also wanted to try and find out as much as I could about what causes preeclampsia. What exactly goes on in the body that would cause that to happen? Funny thing is the verdict is still out there. They're not exactly sure what causes it.Meagan: Yeah. And there are things that we can do to try to help avoid it, but there's nothing specifically that's like if you do this, you for sure won't have it.Liz: Yeah.Meagan: The same thing with gestational diabetes. It's within the placenta, but we don't know. It needs to be further studied.Liz: Yeah. I have heard that it has to do with the father. Have you heard that too?Meagan: I have heard that as well, that there's a connection. Yes.Liz: Yeah. So I wound up, I remember I saw a home birth my wife just for blood work between having my son and conceiving my daughter. She did mention, "Preeclampsia is largely a first-time pregnancy illness. Largely. It doesn't mean you can't have it a second time," but she was the one who mentioned to me you have a higher instance of getting it again if you have the same father for your child. And I'm like, "Well, I'm married."Meagan: Well, I am going to have the same father.Liz: Yeah. So that was always in the back of my head. It's like, okay well, subsequent pregnancy, less of a chance. But same father, more of a chance. So I was just wondering what my odds were. It definitely was there on my mind for a long time. I studied as much as I could about what could cause it. I've read Lily Nichols, Real Food for Pregnancy, cover to cover. Obsessed with her. Obsessed with everything she has to say. There it is right here.Meagan: And right here and right here. Real Food for Gestational Diabetes. Real Food for Pregnancy. Food is powerful, you guys. It's very powerful. But it's changed over the years.Liz: I know. I love how she presents the research because she's the one who really delves into it and presents it in such a digestible way. It was such an easy read. I was like, okay. Okay, here are some things that I can control. Can I control everything? No. But here are the things that I intend to do the next time.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: So my mom passed away in April 2019. It took, again, a few years, but by spring 2022, I was feeling ready. And my husband and I kind of discussed it. It was in little passing. "Hey, should we try and get pregnant again?" And it was one time. It's not lost on me how lucky I am in that sense that it took me one shot to get pregnant.Meagan: Which is awesome. Liz: Yeah. I found out my EDD for that pregnancy was going to be on Christmas Day.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Liz: Yeah. And I just said, "Wow, I can't avoid major winter holidays, apparently, with my pregnancies."Meagan: Yeah. Oh, my gosh.Liz: So we did not find out that we were having a girl, but she did wind up being a girl. Spoiler alert. But, yeah, I was really not feeling well that pregnancy. It was like aversions times 1000. I had this really bizarre one that I had never even heard anybody discussed before, but I had so much extra saliva in my mouth. I'm sorry. That might sound disgusting. It felt like when right before you're going to get sick, how your mouth fills up with saliva but all day.Meagan: Like your saliva glands were just excess all the time, giving you all the spit possible.Liz: Yeah, it was disgusting.Meagan: That is interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that.Liz: Yeah, it was terrible. Fortunately, I was working from home. I was working full-time, but I was at home. I would just walk around with a spit cup. Like, how disgusting. It disgusts me to even talk about it. It's just like, what is happening? I was waiting for those aversions to let up because I couldn't stand the smell of coffee, which, I love coffee. Basically the sight of anything that wasn't pure oxygen was disgusting to me. The sight of opening up my refrigerator was like, ugh. Exactly. The gag reflex. That lasted my second pregnancy until 22 weeks. So it was rough. I joked that I was horizontal for 2022, and that's not even a joke. I really was lying down. I had so much guilt because my son was so energetic at this point. He was nearly four years old, and he had so much energy. He wanted to do things, and I could not muster up the energy most of the time. My husband was the default parent, and I never thought that that would be the case. That was really, really hard. That was probably the hardest part of the pregnancy. But yeah, so I started to really actively plan for that VBAC. I started to see a hospital-based group of midwives. I loved them. I had gone for well-woman visits between as well. But every provider that I saw was just amazing. I didn't have any bad things to say. I knew that I would be with them if I was in the hospital. But deep down in my heart, I really, really wanted to be at home. I had seen so many beautiful home birth videos when I did HypnoBirthing. And I also associated hospitals with sickness. I had been there because I developed preeclampsia.Meagan: Uh-huh.Liz: I had been there when my mom was sick and passing away. It was a sick place. I wanted to be at a place where I felt most safe. For me, that was home. I know people have a lot of feelings and opinions about that all over, but for me, that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to do all of the things to keep myself low-risk and able to birth at home if possible while still making plans for transfer and even surgery if it was needed again. So I wasn't ignorant to the fact that it could turn into that, but I was going to try all of the things.Where I live, there actually aren't a lot of home birth midwives who support HBACs, VBACs at home. But I found one and we clicked immediately. When I spoke to her on the phone, I was like, she is my girl. I need her. I need her energy at my birth. We met in person a few weeks later, and she was so, so gung-ho about it. She had mentioned that her mom actually had an HBAC, and she witnessed her mom having that HBAC. It was just ingrained into her. She really supported me with advice on diet. She helped me with supplementation. I was on a lot of supplements for this pregnancy. I'm not even going to front. I had so many alarms set for all my supplements daily. So yes, I was trying to support myself with diet, of course, but I was trying to also fill in any gaps that might be there with supplementation. I just know my diet's not perfect, and it certainly wasn't when I was feeling terrible.Meagan: Yeah, no one's is. No one's is. That's just the reality of it. We can be eating the best we can, and we still are often falling short. That's why supplements are really great.Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I was seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor the entire time to get myself into the best alignment to have that vaginal birth. The supplementation, I was doing reformer pilates. I had started it the year before, and I did it all the way until the very end of November 2022, so I was staying active. I was really trying. I basically said that I will do almost anything to keep myself at home. That was really my motto. Yeah, I really can't say I was totally worry-free. I was waiting for something to go wrong. I was. I was trying to keep this brave face as like, okay. I can do this. I can birth the way that I want to. I can have this complication-free birth and pregnancy experience. And in the back of my head I'm thinking, when is the next shoe go going to drop?Meagan: I mean, it's what you've experienced in the back story, the last story. And it's hard. Even if we've processed through things, there's still sometimes those little creeping thoughts that come in.Liz: Yeah. That is for sure. My midwife did recommend that I get a third-trimester ultrasound. That was more for her, but it was also for me. She never ever said, "You have to do this." Everything was really a conversation. The appointments, especially with a home birth midwife were an hour long or more sometimes. Just amazing. I loved going to see her. So I did get that third trimester ultrasound. It was more to check to make sure that the placenta wasn't compromised in any way and whether it was in a good position. There was no accreta. That was something that we really wanted to rule out to keep me low-risk and at home. I agreed with that. I am not anti-medicine by any means. I just want to put that out there just because I chose to have a home birth. I do respect medical professionals and their jobs and the need for surgery but I also wanted to keep myself in a place, again, that I felt safe, and that's really what it came down to. So in my head, I had mentally prepared to go to 41 weeks. I think that's where I prepared to go because I had learned that many, many women, especially first-time laboring women, because I did not labor with my son, I neglected to mention that I didn't labor at all. So first-time laboring women will go into labor typically, but somewhere between 40 and 41 weeks. Post-dates is very, very common. So in my head I prepared to go to 41 weeks and we got there. We got to Christmas. We through there. I was like, I'm going to go somewhere before New Year's Eve. No, nothing. So we got to New Year's Eve and here I am in my 41st week, and I'm just trying to keep myself calm. What am I going to do? I cannot go to 42 weeks. I can't do it. Mentally, I can't do it. Physically, I can't do it. I'm going to wind up at the hospital. Of course, all of these negative thoughts are swirling. I went for another adjustment with chiropractor. I went for an acupuncture session. I went for a few of them, but I did induction points with my acupuncturist. I was just trying to do all the things-- curb walking, I did the Miles circuit and all the things to try and help this baby engage. So we get to 41 and 1 for me, which is a Monday, and I was woken up with contractions that felt like period cramps. That's how I would describe them. Around 2:00 AM, I started timing them. They were 12 to 15 minutes apart at that point, but they weren't letting up. They were consistent. I woke up my husband getting all excited like, "Oh my gosh, this might be it. Here we are." And they weren't getting closer, but they weren't easing up. So they just continued like that for the rest of the day. I had gotten up from the couch at one point, and I felt like this small trickle. I went into the bathroom, and it didn't look like anything to me. It didn't look like much. There wasn't a huge gush of fluid, nothing. So I was like, oh, I think it's probably just discharge or maybe part of my mucus plug. I have no idea. I have literally no idea. But I was like, nothing seems off to me, and it wasn't enough fluid to be concerning. I did text my midwife to update her and she mentioned to me, "A lot of women will drop into more active labor when the sun goes down. Things get quiet. It starts to get calmer. I can almost guarantee that we're going to have a baby at some point in the next 24 hours." So I go to bed that night and thinking, I'm going to wake up Tuesday probably either be having a baby or have a baby already. I woke up Tuesday, and I was still pregnant. Here I was.Meagan: You're like, this is not what I was thinking.Liz: I remember I would wake up with a contraction, but again, they were 12 to 15 minutes apart. I would go to sleep between no issues and just wake up, breathe through the contraction, and go back to sleep. And that's how the whole night went. I just couldn't believe I was still pregnant. I really was starting to get a little down on myself. I was like, these aren't coming closer together. They're not intensifying. They're not letting up, but there's nothing really happening at this point. I texted my midwife again that morning, Tuesday morning, and she said she needed to come see me for the 41-week appointment anyway, so she said that she would come by that day. She was going to come to my house. And then we get to the mid-morning. It was probably around 10-10:30 and my contractions stopped, like literally up and left. Like, what is happening right now? I can't. I was in shock, literally in shock. Especially because labor had been going on for over 24 hours. It was absurd to me. But she's like, "Don't worry. I'm going to come see you for your appointment anyway." When she arrived later that day, I did ask her to do a cervical check because at this point I'm like, "Something has had to happen whether the baby moved down into a better station or I'm a little bit more dilated or just more engagement. Whatever it is, I just want to know at this point."Meagan:: Yeah.Liz: So she did. She said, "I'll go in there. I can do a cervical check and if I can get in there, would you like me to do a membrane sweep?" And I was like, "I would love that. Anything to get this going. Let's get the party started." I'm at my house. She does the cervical check. She's like, "I can do a membrane sweep." And as she basically finishes up, I feel this gush of fluid.Meagan:: Your water.Liz: Yeah. She stopped, and I said, "Was that fluid?" She's like, "I'm going to make sure it's amniotic fluid. I have the test strip," and of course, it lit up like a highlighter. She's like, "Yes." She goes, "So guess what? We're going to go after baby today. We're going to get this. We are going to get this party started." I had kept telling her, "I can't go to 42 weeks," and she kept saying, "Let's not go to 42 weeks. You'll be fine. We're going to get it moving." And here we are. She did mention, I was at that point, about 3-4 centimeters dilated, so pretty good. But she was like, "I can offer you, I have a Foley. I can offer you a Foley balloon just to put a little bit more pressure on the cervix and maybe we can get those contractions to start to start up again, and then hopefully come closer together." Yeah. So she did. She put that Foley in and she waited with me at my house, and we just chatted. It came out a short time after. It took very little. I didn't have discomfort with that, thankfully.Meagan: That's, good. I mean, your cervix was starting to come forward. Things were going.Liz: It was going. Yeah, yeah. So again, she stayed with me and once the Foley came out, she just advised me to put on some sort of protective underwear whether it was the adult diapers or a pad because now we knew that my fluid was at least leaking, but it wasn't coming out consistently anymore. I don't think it fully came out. It wasn't a big enough gush for it to be all of the fluid, if that makes sense.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Liz: So she told me to do a few things. She's like, "I'm going to head out. You're going to call me when you need me," which, at that point, I was like, I have no idea what that means, but okay. And she's like, "Here are the things that you can do. Obviously nothing in there anymore, because we know that your amniotic sac is open.Meagan: It's broken. Liz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But she said, "You could do some pumping. You could use some clary sage essential oil." She gave me her TENS machine, and she's like, "You could try the TENS machine." I had never known that you could actually use that not for pain management. I only thought it was for pain management. So I was like, "That's so interesting." So she's like, "Do the pumping. Do that." So I did. I did one session, I think, before I put my son to bed for the last time as an only child. I did. I went and laid down with him and just knew that was probably going to be the last time that he would wake up or the last time he had woken up as an only child. And then I did it one more time, and not only did my contractions come back, I started timing them on the app, and I'm watching them get closer. They're going from 10 minutes to 8 minutes to 7 minutes to 5 minutes. I'm just watching them like, oh, my gosh. So we get to 11-11:30 at night, and it's just me and my husband there, and they are three minutes apart, and they're not easing up, and they are getting intense. So there it was. They came back.Meagan: And labor begins.Liz: Oh, it began. It began. I have so many interesting photos that my doula wound up taking. Thank God for her. Not only for the photos, but for everything that she did during the labor and delivery. It was intense. It gets intense, or in my experience, active labor when you get the breaks between the contractions and you are able to rest. I took every opportunity to rest. My doula was trying to guide me into different positions. She would help by putting a warm compress on my back at times. She would encourage even location changes in my house just to see if I could use the toilet. She told me to get into the shower at one point. I was like, "I'm too claustrophobic in here." I didn't like that, but she was trying to get me to try different things. But it was so intense. The craziest part for me was transition. That was truly an out-of-body experience. Everybody was doing these hands-on manipulations, my husband and my doula. But I could not do anything but just sway. I was standing, swaying back and forth in my living room, arms up. Why were my arms up? I have no idea, but they were up. I was doing that horse lips, breathing. Yep. It was just what my body did intuitively. I just, at that point, wasn't really getting a break. It was just insane. So that was intense. Out-of-body. I cannot replicate that level of pain in my head. There's just no doing that, but I knew that even if I needed to transfer, which I wasn't planning, but even if I needed to do that for pain management, I couldn't sit down in a car. I was at that point, so I thought to myself, the only way to this is through this. Like that is it. You've got to do it. We're just going to do it. So I knew that in my head. At no point did the pain concern me though. I mean, was it so intense and crazy? Yeah, but it was never like, there's something wrong.Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah.Liz: So that was really good. I didn't think anything negative during that time except that I was in an intense amount of pain. But it was like pain with a purpose, if that makes sense.Meagan: Productive.Liz: Yes, yes. In the meantime, my doula had set up a birth pool because I definitely wanted to try to be in the pool when I gave birth, but I wasn't sure how I'd feel about the water since I didn't really like the shower experience. It took a while because the hose kept slipping off of our faucet or whatever, so they had to boil pots of water. I just remember my doula walking back and forth. In the meantime, they did call my midwife. Somebody did, and she showed up with her assistant. So there were like three or four adults trying to hold me in transition or do some sort of physical manipulations and then pour hot water into this birth pool.Meagan: Oh my.Liz: Yeah, it was very interesting. But yeah, my contractions, at that point, were 30 seconds apart and they were lasting a minute and a half. It was intense, yes. But the pool was finally filled at 6:45 in the morning on Wednesday, and the only reason why I know that is because we have pictures of me right before I got into the pool. When I got in, my body just relaxed. I didn't think I was going to be wanting to be in a supine position at all, beyond my bottom at all because I couldn't have even tried to sit on land. But once I got into the pool, everything relaxed and it was like, oh, this is what I needed. This is what I needed. I needed some relief. I also kept telling everybody how tired I was. Anybody who walked past me, I was like, "I'm so tired." They were like, "Yeah, no. We know. We know, but we're going to keep working."Meagan: Yeah.Liz: But yeah, I was in there for a really short time and I had heard of this before, but to actually experience it is next level. I had the fetal ejection reflex.Meagan: Oh yeah.Liz: So I did not even have another cervical check. Nothing. My body just started pushing that baby down and out. I couldn't have stopped it if I wanted to. I was making the most primal sounds. I have video of it, like low guttural sounds. It was probably going on for about 15 minutes. My son walked down, I heard his little pitter-patter of his feet, and he walked down. My stairs go right into my living room where I was. And the whole time the most nerve-wracking part of having a home birth for me was that I knew he was going to be home with us, and there really wasn't an adult aside from my husband and my birth support team who I wanted in my birthing space. So there was no other option of anybody to take care of him besides my husband if it came to that. I think in the back of my head, that was the most anxiety-inducing part of this.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: So down he walks. And of course, he's hiding. He sees these three other adults in our living room. I'm in the tub groaning.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: He's a little nervous. He's a little guy. Fortunately, I think it was either the birth assistant or my doula handed him his little digital camera that I had actually bought as a gift from the baby for him. Yeah. She encouraged him. She's like, "Why don't you take some pictures? Take some pictures of mommy and daddy." The minute that she said that and he started to do that, he calmed down and just wanted to be in it and part of it.Meagan: Yeah.Liz: Yeah. And I told him, "Mommy's making some interesting noises, but I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm okay." And he was just really good about it. I feel like all that anxiety went away, thankfully.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.Liz: Yeah. I noticed my midwife was starting to gather her supplies and in my head, I actually probably said it out loud like, "Wait, we're doing this here?" And she was like, "Yeah." I was like, "I'm having a baby here in this room." She's like, "Yeah." I was like, "I don't need to go to the hospital?" She's like, "No, no, no. You're okay."And, yeah. My body just kept pushing the baby out. And it was an hour, not even an hour. It was less than an hour from when I first got into the pool until my daughter was out. My husband got to reach down and put his hands there. As she came out, he felt her really chubby cheeks. She has big cheeks like me and her ear, and brought her up to my chest. I was just in shock. I couldn't believe that I had done that. But then, of course, I look and I see that she's a girl. I just knew my mom had sent me her. That's how I felt.Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills.Liz: Thank you.Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is so beautiful. I love that your son was able to be involved, and you could feel your mom. Oh huge. Congrats. Liz: Thank you so much.Meagan: Yes. Liz: My mom's name was Faith, and so my daughter's middle name is Faye because everybody who loved my mom called her Faye. She was Aunt Faye to everybody, every cousin. So my daughter's name is Luna Faye. So she is her namesake, and she's amazing. And like you said, I can't believe she's almost two. I can't believe this was almost two years ago.Meagan: Two years ago. I know. We get so many submissions and sometimes we can't get to everybody, but it does take a while sometimes. I'm so glad that you were able to come and still record your beautiful stories and give us so much detail of each one and guidance, and the experience. Yeah. I'm just so happy for you.Thank you so much. I don't think I'll ever come down from that high, that birth high. Like, I think I'll be riding it out for the rest of my life. I'm not sure I'm going to have any more children. I think we're pretty much done, but I would love to give birth like that a thousand more times. It was the redemptive story that I needed. It helped so much with my previous birth trauma, and it made me feel so strong. I have never felt more strong and more powerful than that experience. I don't think I ever will.Meagan: Yeah, well, and there's so much that went into it-- time preparing, research, finding this team, and then even dealing with the prodromal. I mean, that could be defeating within itself. You're so tired, but then you just kept going.Liz: Yeah, I kept doing the things. I mean, that was one thing that my doula and my midwife both commented on. They were like, "You did everything that you could, and you tried to control everything that you can control, and look what happened. That's amazing."Meagan: Yeah. Thank you again so much.Liz: Thank you. I'm so happy to have been able to talk to you and share my story.Meagan: Me too. Do you have any final advice to any of our listeners?Liz: I think my ultimate advice for any birthing person is to find a provider that you align with. I think they can really make or break that experience. No matter where you choose to birth or where you wind up birthing, have that provider that you trust, that you feel like you could have open conversations with. If you say you want a natural birth, they're not going to scoff at that, and somebody who's going to have conversations with you instead of talking at you.Meagan: Yeah, I agree so much. I want to add to just vet them. If they're feeling good at first, okay, stay. And if something's happening, keep going. Keep asking the questions, and if something's not feeling right, don't hesitate to change.Liz: I know. And I not only hesitated, but I knew I had to change with my first provider, and I just didn't. I think at that point, I was so tired.Meagan: Yeah well, it's daunting. It's a daunting thing. I mean, I was there too, so no shame in it. It's just hard when you realize looking back, oh, I could have. I should have done something different. I didn't, but that's okay. We've learned, we've grown, and we've had healing experiences moving forward.Liz: Yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Meagan welcomes Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins, a board-certified OB/GYN, to discuss everything related to pregnancy, childbirth, and the VBAC experience. With over 23 years of experience and more than 1,000 deliveries, Dr. Rankins shares her insights on common questions and concerns from expectant mothers. From the importance of mindset during labor to understanding the implications of the word “allow” in provider-patient relationships, this episode is packed with valuable information. Don't miss out on Dr. Rankins' tips for a calm and confident birth, and learn how to advocate for yourself in the birthing process!Dr. Nicole Rankins' WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength, It's Meagan, and I am so excited to be joining you today with our friend, Nicole Calloway Rankins. Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins is incredible. We've been following her for a long time and have collaborated with her in the past and are so excited to be having her on the podcast today. Dr. Rankins is a board-certified practicing OB/GYN, wife, mom and podcast host here to help you get calm, confident, and empower you to have a beautiful birth you deserve. She was born into a family of educators, and she felt a pull to medical school the day she looked in the mirror and saw a vision of herself in a white coat. And get this, it all happened while she was studying to be an engineer. She says, "I know that sounds crazy, but that vision has led me to exactly where I am supposed to be today- serving pregnant women." She's delivered more than 1,000 babies and has de-mystified childbirth for thousands more through her 5-star rated All About Pregnancy and Birth Podcast which she's going be talking about a little bit more today. I'm so excited for her. She has over 2 million downloads and her online birth plan and childbirth education classes. You guys, she is really changing so much about the birth world. She's incredible. You're going to hear it today. I love chatting with her. You can find her at drnicolrankins.com and of course, we'll have all of her other podcasts and Instagram and all that in the show notes. So get ready, we're excited. We're going to be talking a little bit more about common questions for an OB/GYN, but then we're also going to be diving into questions from you personally. I reached out on Instagram and said, "Hey, what are your questions for this doctor?" She is so excited to answer them, and she did. We went through every single question that was asked on our Instagram community. I'm so excited. I'm going to get to the intro, and then we are going to start with Dr. Rankins. You guys, Dr. Rankins is back with us today and I'm so excited. Funny enough, I keep saying that you're back, but you've never done the podcast with us.Dr. Nicole Rankins: I don't think so. Yeah, I think we did a class.m: We did a class which was phenomenal and everyone ranted and raved about it. So we're back together ,but we have you for the first time on the podcast. So welcome. Dr. Nicole Rankins: Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here.Meagan: We just adore you and I love getting your opinion on things. I think from doulas, from midwives to OBs, we all have different opinions and experiences, and if there's anyone that has hands-on experience, it is you and a midwife, like someone who is physically handling.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yep. I've done this a couple thousand times. Yes.Meagan: Versus my 300 and something verse.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Don't discount it. That's very excellent.Meagan: It's still super great, but when it comes to thousands and an understanding on an even deeper level, it's just so fun and it's a compliment to the podcast to have your expertise.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I've been at this 23 years, so it's a long time.Meagan: And still going. It's still going.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Still going. Yes.Meagan: And okay, tell me we can edit this if you want, but you have a new podcast coming out. I do know it's not going to be by the time this airs. It's not going to be out just yet. But can you tell us a little bit more about it and where people can find this?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. So it's still going to be in the same feed. So if you subscribe to the old podcast, it's just going to change, keep the same feed, but it's going to have a new name and a bit of a new focus still related to pregnancy and birth, but it's just a bit tighter. I want to say the name so bad, but I'm not going to.Meagan: Okay. Don't let it out. We will find out it is released.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.Meagan: Tell them where to follow right now.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right now? Yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, even though I'm taking a Little break now, you'll get it there. But the podcast is called All About Pregnancy and Birth. Go ahead and subscribe, and you can be the first one to know when the first episodes come out. I just have lots of new ways to present information about pregnancy and birth and frameworks and things. Okay, I'll give a little hint. One of the first things I'm talking about is one thing that's so important to pregnancy and your birth experience is your mindset. So one of the things I created is this MAMA mindset framework. MAMA stands for meditation, affirmations, move your body, attitude of gratitudes. I have practices, exercises, and things we're going to talk about. That's just one little, tiny sliver of the things that I've been working on and writing, so it's just good, great stuff.Meagan: Yay. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. That is even more applied with just birth in general. But VBAC, I feel like mindset attitude, and all these things that you were just saying, is so important because even though we're just moms going and having babies, we have some extra things that some extra barriers that sometimes we have to either break through or we run into.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a calm mind creates a confident birth. So when you have that calm mind, that is the first step to helping you create a confident birth experience. So mindset is really important.Meagan: Yeah, it really is. Well, I'm excited to chat with you today, and I'm excited to listen to that sometime here in the near future and listen to more of what you are bringing to the table. Okay, so one of the questions that I would like to go over is the word "allow".What does the word "allow" mean? How does someone navigate something that maybe doesn't feel right for them? And on both sides-- Dr. Fox and I have talked about how sometimes it's not right for the provider. You're not the right patient for that provider because what you want is not comfortable with the provider and vice versa.But we often hear or actually more see it on The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. There are comments of, "My doctor said they will allow" or "My midwife said they'll allow me to." If so when you are saying that or maybe have you said that, what does that mean?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I don't say that word.Meagan: Okay.Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's a word that should not be in the discussion about birth because allow implies a hierarchal relationship where I get to make the decisions about what does or does not happen in someone's pregnancy, birth, labor, body, and that is not true. You as the person giving birth are the one who ultimately makes the decisions, not your doctor or your midwife. We can't really allow anything. We're not your parents. Do you know what I mean? So "allow" shouldn't be part of the conversation. It's a left overturn from just a general patriarchal foundation of OB/GYN, particularly when men took over into the specialty and banished midwives is how that language came about is that we need to tell folks and we need to control. So it really shouldn't be the case, but it still hangs around. Words matter, and it's important. Even though people don't necessarily mean it with any sort of ill-intent or that they mean that they're trying to control you, and inherently sort of subconsciously implies that. So I strongly dislike the word "allow".Meagan: Yeah, I am with you too. As someone who has had that word happen to me, it made me feel like I had to do something to meet their standard quota to get that allowance.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.Meagan: That just didn't feel great.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: So if someone is saying that, are there any tips of advice that you would give?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, I mean, first off, if you hear it, that's a little notch of a red flag potentially that it's not going to be a shared decision-making process because really, it should be that my role is to give you information and share my expertise with you to help you come up with the best decision for yourself. That looks like various things for different people. Some people want tons of information. They want to think about it and then talk about it. Some people are like, "Just tell me what to do," which if that's what you want me to do, then I can do that too. So if you hear "allowed", then it's concerning that there may not be that shared decision-making. So that's a little bit of a red flag to know.But then to open it up for discussion, it kind of depends on what the situation is. So is it we don't allow you to eat or drink during labor or we don't allow TOLAC? Then the next question is really, why? Especially if it's something that's important for you, why? If you want to use the language back, you can even use it back. "But why is that not allowed? Why is that the case?" And then kind of take the discussion from there.Meagan: Yeah. I think asking the question just in general, "Why?" or "Okay, I hear you. Can you explain to me?"Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.Meagan: It really helps there be a discussion like you were saying. I feel like when it comes to birth, like you're saying, I'm not your parent, but it needs to be collaborative effort here. We're trusting you to help us with this really amazing event in our life, but at the same time, we have to have equal trust from you. It's this collaboration of like, let's talk about what we want this to look like.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Definitely, tust and collaboration are key in order to have a great birth experience. And ideally, you want to try to work on that foundation during your prenatal appointments so that by the time you get to the hospital, you know that you're going to have that relationship actually, regardless of what doctors there or nurses say. You create this environment of trust and collaboration. So when you ask the question why, don't necessarily start off-- and this is part of the psychology of human behavior. You don't necessarily have to start off with, "Well, why?" attitude because advocacy is not about creating conflict or creating chaos. Advocacy is really about creating that collaboration and creating that trust. It's the end result. So start from a place of trying to connect. Ask, learn information, and then kind of go from there.Meagan: Yeah. Love that. Well, thank you. Okay. Fetal monitoring. I know this is actually going to be a question down the line, or maybe it's a little different, but fetal monitoring with VBAC in hospitals is typically required. Can we talk about the evidence on that of why? Why? Again, here's the question, why? Why is that done? Dive in deeper. We talk about that in our course. But I think it's so great to talk directly to an OB/GYN like you to understand your point of view.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. The reason that's the case is that one of the first signs of uterine rupture is going to be a change in the fetal heart rate. So that's why we always want to see the fetal heart rate because it's going to be the first indication that there's potentially an issue. So it's really that simple. It may even be potentially before you start having pain. Some people may or may not have bleeding, but fetal heart rate changes and pain are going to be the things that will clue us in and we don't want to miss that if it happens.Meagan: Yeah, so when a fetal heart changes, we know, through labor-- this is a spin-off of the question. We know babies' heart rates fluctuate up and down. Sometimes they might have a compression in the cord that causes the heart rate to go really down during the uterine contraction and that goes up, but it goes really down. It's like, oh, that's low, and then it goes right back up to its baseline. So what is a concerning fetal trace in this scenario?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right, yeah. So this is the part where I have to say, this is the reason we do four years of OB/GYN residency, why we have to get take fetal heart rate monitoring training every couple of years to stay up on it. This isn't something that can be had in a subtle conversation because it's not just what you see in the moment, it's what you see in the moment. The things we look for in general are a baseline of the heart rate between 110 and 150, 160, roughly. We look for things called accelerations, decelerations, and the variability, which is like the squiggliness of it, that's the big picture. But when we look at it, it's like, okay. We assess it, and then we try to do some things to improve the heart rate. We look at how the heart rate looks over time. Has it gotten worse over time? If we do some things to get it better, then that's considered good. So we can't really say if you see this specific snapshot of a fetal heart rate, then that's going to be the thing that triggers things. It really just depends.Meagan: Makes total sense.Dr. Nicole Rankins: And it can also be contractions because sometimes if you're having too many contractions back to back and there's no time to get a break, so the baby's like, "Can I just have a minute to breathe in between these contractions, please?" So maybe we need to slow down the contractions. So really, it's a lot of things that go into it, and that's where our expertise comes in.Meagan: Yeah, it's a big math equation in a lot of ways when it comes to tracings and things like that. Okay.Dr. Nicole Rankins: I do want to say that a lot of times people think monitoring equals no movement. But more and more, hospitals these days have wireless monitoring so you're able to move. That's definitely a question you want to ask ahead of time if wireless monitoring options are available so that you're able to move around.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Because they've got, at least I don't know if it's what it's called there, but we call it the Monica.It's just that little sandpaper on your belly and that's kind of nice. Sandpaper sounds harsh. It's a light little scrub so it gets the oils off your skin. So that's a really nice thing.Awesome. Okay. And then scar thickness. This is a really big one, and we've talked a little bit about it with Dr. Fox in the past. But scar thickness and double versus single stitch closure is a very, very common question that we are getting wondering about the evidence that shows that someone maybe shouldn't TOLAC or the evidence on thinner scars because it seems like it's becoming a new standard. It's coming in with the VBAC calculator. That is what we're seeing. It's like we're doing the VBAC calculator and we're measuring the scar and those kind of two things are becoming routine. And then of course, once we review OP reports. Double versus single.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. So the double versus single doesn't make a difference. So whether you had a double layer closure or a single layer closure, you're still a candidate for a VBAC. So that one is pretty easy. I don't even look at OP notes for double versus single layer. It really just needs to be a low transverse incision on the low part of the uterus. So that's that. As far as the scar thickness, the rationale behind that is that when the uterus ruptures, it literally just thins out. Thins out and thins out until it ruptures open generally. So when we're measuring this scar thickness, the physiology of it makes sense that if it's really thin and then you start to put the pressure of contractions on it, there may be a higher chance of it rupturing. Now, is there hard data that if it's this amount that is definitely going to rupture or you should or shouldn't TOLAC? Not necessarily. In our area, it's not routinely measured or talked about. It's not anything that we discuss, so it's not a routine part of practice, but that's the thought behind it. And typically it may come up if it's noticed, or if it's very noticeable. If the ultrasound, the maternal fetal medicine specialist or whoever does the ultrasound says, "This uterine scar, where it is, is really, really thin," and then it may come up. But in general, I don't see that come up very often.Meagan: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good to know. Yeah, it just seems. Yeah. Like, oh my goodness. Are you hearing that ding?Dr. Nicole Rankins: No.Meagan: Okay, good. I hope you're not hearing it. On my end, my computer keeps dinging, but it's on mute, so I'm not really sure what's going on. I'm having all the technical issues today.Anyway, that's really, really good to know though, because it is something that so many people are hyper-focusing on. Sometimes I think there are other things to hyper-focus on like our nutrition and finding that supportive provider and getting the education and really understanding the choice that we're making when we VBAC.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, definitely. I'm not focusing on it, so I don't think you should focus on it.Meagan:Yes, yes. But it is. I think it is probably hard for these people when they go to these visits. They're so excited. They want to have a TOLAC or a VBAC, and then they're like, "Oh well, we have to do these things first to see if you qualify."Dr. Nicole Rankins: And scar thickness is just not part of ACOG's recommendation. It's not part of what determines whether or not you can have VBAC.Meagan: I know. It shouldn't be anyway. Yes, yes, yes. But for some reason, we're still seeing it. So I think it's good to know that you guys, if you're having that, maybe just think twice about it.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Or get a second opinion.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say, get a second opinion.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes.Meagan: Okay. So our community asked questions. I went on and said that we were going to have you on. And they were so excited and kind of just asked all of the questions. So one of the questions was, if you don't get an epidural for a VBAC and you need a C-section, will you have to be put fully out, so under general anesthesia?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, no. Not necessarily, and most likely not. Generally, as long as it's not an emergency, there's time to do a spinal. The difference between an epidural and spinal, the epidural is a catheter that stays in place and medicine continually gets fed through the catheter where a spinal is a one-shot dose of medicine that lasts for two to three hours. So as long as there's time and you can sit up for the spinal or they can lay you on your side for the spinal, then they can do the spinal for the C-section, and you don't have to do general. General anesthesia is only reserved for if it's truly an emergency and there's not enough time to do the spinal.Meagan: Right. And for this is another, I'm adding this. But epidural versus spinal longevity of effectiveness meaning like you're numb enough for them to perform the surgery.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. The spinal's going wear off.Meagan: Yeah. Quickly, but it's going to go on quicker. Right or no? Or deeper?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, it's a denser numbing than what you get with an epidural. When you get an epidural before, if you have an epidural and then you go to a C-section, then you just get a bigger dose of medicine that kind of mimics what you get through the spinal. So the thing about the spinal is that it's meant to cover a surgery, so it's going to be a larger dose of medicine, so you're going to be more numb because we don't actually want you to be completely numb during labor. The spinal is really just to make sure you're nice and is numb and don't feel the surgery.Meagan: And how long does it take to kick in to be numb enough? Like 20 minutes? 30?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, yeah. I would say it's actually pretty quickly. So yes, you're right. It can kick in a little bit faster than epidural because it's a lot more medicine. So typically, I would say within 5-10 minutes, you're going to start feeling numbness pretty quickly. But by the time we've laid you down, washed your belly, put in the catheter, done those things, then you're numb.Meagan: Yeah. So in that non-emergency situation, you're going to have plenty of time to be numb and not have to be put under general anesthesia. In an emergent situation, we have minutes. We have minutes to work with. How many minutes if we're having fetal distress? And obviously, it could vary for a lot of patients, I'm sure, but major fetal distress emergent like true emergent under general anesthesia. What are we looking at a timeframe before we get baby out before we're really concerned?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. I mean so if it's true, like an emergency, because a lot of people say they had an emergency C-section. It's actually not emergency. Meagan: Right. Baby was born two hours later. D; Yeah, or even 30 minutes later. So emergency is going to be like we're ripping the cords out of the wall. We're running down the hall to the operating room. When we get in the operating room, the heart rate is still in the 60s. So we want baby out in five minutes.Meagan: Okay.Dr. Nicole Rankins: We want baby out as quickly as possible, and the quickest way to get a baby out is general anesthesia and then go, if you don't already have a spinal.Meagan: Right. Perfect. That's also another common question of like, well, how long do I have if I don't have that? Because that's a big deciding factor for people with not wanting to go unmedicated or wanting to go to medicated but not wanting to be in an emergent situation. Those emergent situations, they happen. We can't sugarcoat it. They happen, but they are more rare. I love that you pointed that out. A lot of people say this was an emergent situation and we hear, well, then they went out and they came back, and 25-30+ minutes later, they had a baby.Dr. Nicole Rankins: That's not an emergency. As a matter of fact, emergency C-sections are fairly rare. Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I've had to run somebody down the hall for a C-section.Meagan: And I call those crash like crash sections. Everybody crashes and goes. Yeah.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Mhmm. Mhmm. Things are moving so quickly.Meagan: Okay. So someone says, do I need an OB for a VBAC? I have lost all trusts in nurses and doctors after being forced into a C-section which breaks my heart that this question is a thing. I see it all the time. People have been "wronged" or bullied, and it shouldn't be that way. Dr. Nicole Rankins: It should not.Meagan: Sometimes it happens for whatever reason. But yeah, like do you have to have an OB? Obviously, we know the answer is no.Dr. Nicole Rankins: No, you can have a midwife. For sure.Meagan: But maybe I want to spin it to more of a positive. If we have an OB, how can we better establish a relationship with them so we're not in a situation in the end feeling pressured or bullied?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. And actually I want you to even back it up even further, and this is for anybody having a baby. What you want, you don't specifically want a midwife. You don't specifically want an OB. What you want is someone who's going to listen to you, respect your wishes and really center you in your birth experience. So yes, midwives are great at that, but sometimes midwives can be tricky too. The way that the reason I said that is because I know people who were like, "I had a midwife and I thought it was going to be great," and it wasn't. And they were hanging too much weight on that midwife hat.Meagan: The midwife word, yeah.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, yes. So you really need to start with is this person listening to me and respecting me? So whether that's midwife or OB, okay?Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Nicole Rankins: So take that away first. And then if you have an OB, again because the midwife is also going to work with an OB, I'm assuming you're doing in the hospital, you want someone who is not just like, "Oh, if you go into labor, you can have a VBAC. I mean, I guess that's okay." Or you want somebody who's really actually supportive of it. I think you've used this language before, not just tolerant of VBAC that they actually you and don't just tolerate the possibility.Meagan: Yeah, I have kind of been thinking about that. Like we as doulas. It's like, oh, I want someone to advocate for me. That big word "advocate", and what does that look like? But in a lot of ways, I think that's what I want a supportive provider to do is advocate for me. Like I understand, validate me. I understand this is what you want, and we're going to do everything we can in our power to do this. If there's something along the way that is saying maybe we shouldn't, I will have that discussion with you. I will not just tell you what you have to do. Dr. Nicole Rankins: Exactly. Meagan: Again, it goes back to that conversation we were having in the beginning of that collaborative relationship. If that is there, I think you set yourself up for better expectations no matter who it is with an OB or a midwife.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.Meagan: Nurses can be tricky. We love our nurses. They're incredible, but sometimes they have opinions, and sometimes they come in and they put it on us.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Here's the thing that people don't realize. You can ask for a new nurse.Meagan: You can.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes you can. You can absolutely. There's always a charge nurse who's in charge of making patient assignments. You can ask to speak to the charge nurse, and you can get a new nurse. Don't feel bad or guilty or like you're hurting anybody's feelings. People will be fine. I promise you. They'll go home, and they'll keep going on about their lives if you ask for a new nurse. So I know it can be challenging, especially sometimes for women to speak up about things, and you're worried about hurting people's feelings and things like that, but you can always ask for a new nurse.Meagan: Absolutely. This is not related to birth, but I signed up with a personal trainer at my gym, and I was assigned to this amazing person, and she was great, but I realized a couple weeks into it that maybe we weren't the best fit for one another. I hesitated for two more weeks to say, "Hey, can I switch?" And now that I've switched, oh my gosh, it's the best decision I made, and I get to see her at the gym all the time. I went up to her and was like, "I love you. Thank you so much. This has been great, but this is what I'm doing." It was a wonderful breakup. You don't even have to break up with someone like that, though. You really don't. It doesn't have to be. I was so nervous, but this is your space. This is your birth. This is your experience. You have to protect it and keep it what you need. If someone's not jiving that or that nurse specifically, you can say, "Hey, thank you so much for your services, but I would like to switch." It's okay.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Definitely, Absolutely.Meagan: And you don't want to go back at the end of the day and be like, oh, I had this nurse, and it was the worst seven hours. That's not positive. We want to look at our birth with a positive view, not a negative view.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. And your nurse is going to be there way more than your doctor. Way more. You definitely want to be in sync with your nurse.Meagan: Yeah. And something else, too. I tell our clients all the time, our doula clients, like, "Hey, upon arrival, if we're not there, say, 'Hey, I would really love a nurse that fits in line with blah, blah, blah.'"Dr. Nicole Rankins: Exactly.Meagan: And a lot of times, they assign it right then, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, you guys are amazing. Thank you."Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, exactly.Meagan: Okay, so next question. What should I consider if my goal would be to have a home birth? So from a hospital OB/GYN, where do you fit in that? What would you suggest? I know a lot of JOBs are like, "Don't go to home."D So yeah, so I personally I would TOLAC at home makes me nervous, but that's because I've seen uterine ruptures before and how quickly things can change. So but however, like in Canada, I think their specialty society guidelines support doing a TOLAC at home after one C-section. So it's not that it's unheard of, but I will say it makes me nervous. Now, if you do want to do it at home, then absolutely have someone who is experienced. This is not the time to have like a brand new midwife. I think you want to have somebody who has some experience in particular with looking for any signs and symptoms of when to go to the hospital. We also need a clear plan for hospital transfer and ideally, that midwife should have a relationship with the hospital so that she feels comfortable going to the hospital in a timely fashion. One of the things that I've seen unfortunately happened during my career with home births that have not turned out optimally is that people are afraid to go to the hospital, so they stay at home too often, and then by the time they get to the hospital it's a train wreck. That's not good for anybody involved. So you want it to be a situation where the midwife feels comfortable going to the hospital in a timely fashion. For example, I work with home birth me bias in my community. I have gone out to the birth centers and things and say, "Hey, if you want to transfer somebody, just let us know. Call."Meagan: I love that you've done that.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah, it's, it's important. So call. Send the records. We have a really smooth process. Nobody bats an eye now when there's a transfer from home birth. Meagan: Oh good.D; So you really want to have those two things in place. A skilled midwife and a good backup plan, preferably with the relationship to the hospital.Meagan: I love that. Such great advice. That's awesome that you're doing that for your community. I just had an interview the other day with a VBAC mom who's toying with the idea, not sure where to go. She asked me and I was like, "Well, you could do dual care. You could establish a relationship with a provider. You can ask your provider out-of-hospital of choice if they do have that relationship," because I do think it is important because sometimes even the midwife is like, "I don't know where to go," so I love that you've done that and gone into the birth centers there. Okay. So we just talked about fetal monitoring, but one of the question was, is intermittent monitoring safe with VBAC just in general?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. It hasn't really been studied very much, and it's not going to be. That's the thing. It's just not something that anybody's going to sign up for and say, "Hey, you get monitoring. You don't get monitoring," and see what happens in assess that situation for VBAC. So I can't answer that question based on data. I will just say that in general, we want to do continuous monitoring.Meagan: Right. That makes sense. Okay, so small lumps under my C-section scar. What could that be? Would/could it impact the outcome of my VBAC?Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's probably scar tissue.Meagan: That's what I thought when I saw that question come in. I think that dials into like going and chatting with someone like askjanette or a pelvic floor PT or someone who can help massage that scar tissue because anytime we have a cut whether it be from a C-section or you fell and scraped your knee and cut your knee open on a rock or a twig, our body will develop scar tissue, and sometimes it clumps. Sometimes it gets that.Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's probably just scar tissue. And no, it should not impact your ability to have a VBAC.Meagan: Have you ever seen this within your TOLAC world, your VBAC world where sometimes we've got thicker scar tissue and sometimes there's separation within the scar tissue internally as babies coming down and making their way through or uterus is contracting? And so sometimes it can be like, oh my gosh, I've got this burning sensation in my scar which we hear, and it's like, that's concerning because we know that sometimes uterine rupture can be that feeling of burning sensation or pain, and usually that pain doesn't go away and just keeps improving. But have you ever seen that with someone and where they're like, "Oh, I've got this burning sensation," and could it be scar tissue stretching maybe?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Definitely, sometimes you have to be careful when you hear people say they're Having pain in their abdomen. Could it be scar tissue stretching? Possibly. That's definitely a possibility.Meagan: It's something that's crossed my mind, over all the years, especially as baby's coming down and putting that extra pressure there.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.Meagan: Okay. So again, yeah, this is something that we asked talked about earlier. So to what extent are decels considered normal in early and late labor? Dr. Nicole Rankins: We don't categorize decels based on the stage of labor necessarily. It's based on how they look, and again, over the course of how the tracing looks. Now sometimes right at the end, we're going to tolerate during pushing some decels, because you're pushing and squeezing, so there's going to be decels. So we may tolerate them more towards the end, but other than that, it really just depends.Meagan: Okay, that makes sense. I feel like sometimes as a doula, we're getting into that transition, almost pushing stage and they come in and they're like, "Hey, so we're wondering if maybe you're ready to push here soon or something's going on based off of some decels." Not that they were concerning, but they're seeing them. But really decels in general, overall, you're going to look at a whole versus one contraction or two contractions.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yep.Meagan: Okay. PROM. So premature rupture of membranes and pre-e with VBAC it says is it still safe? I will answer from my own experience.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, absolutely.Meagan: Yeah, but yeah, time too, with PROM So if we're not having labor begin or we're maybe contracting, like what's handled in that situation, especially knowing that in some hospitals around the world and in the US don't allow Pitocin?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right, yeah.Meagan: Even though that's also not necessarily a contraindication.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Correct. So with PROM, so water breaking before labor starts, it's not as common, but it does happen. You can do expectant management and roughly within 24 hours, most people will start to go into labor on their own. So you can do expectant management, but Pitocin is actually quite safe in those circumstances. The risk of uterine rupture is low. So Pitocin can definitely be used. You just want to use it carefully.Meagan: Yeah. You mentioned that most people within 24 hours will start contracting and having labor, whether it be active at that point or not. But at what point could it be concerning? And maybe if we have GBS or something like that as a factor, would we be like, "Hey, we could keep waiting for the 24-hour mark," and that's not to go in and have a C-section, that's just maybe to augment. When would you encourage augmentation sooner?Dr. Nicole Rankins: So I'm a little bit of an outlier. I just offer the options, and we can talk about that it may take longer if you wait to augment and that's it. It may take longer, and that's it. That can potentially increase the risk of infection. But we don't really do time limits. I don't do 18 hours or 24 hours. I kind of pick. These are moments for us to have discussions about where things are. So definitely usually 6, 12, 18, 24 and just to touch base and see where things are and develop an ongoing plan. Not necessarily have a hard and fast rule that you have to be delivered or by a certain point makes sense.Meagan: And then preeclampsia. So we have seen this quite a bit in our community, on Facebook and on Instagram where they said, "Hey." There was a post just the other day that said, "Hey ladies, I just wanted to thank you so much for being here in this group. You guys have been amazing. Unfortunately, I have to sign off of this group because my provider said I have to have a C-section now because I've developed preeclampsia," so they didn't even offer the option to TOLAC or monitor. And everyone's like, "Wait, what?" This is a thing? So obviously, we know that we can, and everyone's numbers vary. If we've got severe preeclampsia and maybe that's not gonna be best for the stress of mom and baby and everybody, but do you have anything to say on that? I don't really know if I'm asking a question.Dr. Nicole Rankins: But yeah, no. You can definitely try for a TOLAC in the setting of preeclampsia. Now, if even in severe preeclampsia, it just may take longer. But if we're seeing that you're getting sicker and labor isn't progressing or the baby is under distress, then the safer thing may be a C-section. So if you have severe preeclampsia, for example, and it's affecting your liver and your levels of your liver enzymes are going up, up, up, up, up, and we're not close to delivery, then it's going to be safer for your health to expedite birth, and that's going to be a C-section. So it really depends.But the option of completely taking it off the table, that is not standard or that's not evidence-based.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And for HELPP syndrome, where it's gone to that extreme. Now we've got platelet issues and things like that. Can someone with HELPP syndrome TOLAC or is that truly a better option to have a C-section?Dr. Nicole Rankins: I would actually prefer if someone ideally is in labor with HELPP syndrome. Actually, a vaginal birth is going to be safer because when your platelets are low and then we're adding surgery, the risk bleeding goes up.Meagan: That is what is so weird to me. My fifth birth was a HELPP syndrome. She was a VBAC, and they're like, "You have to have a scheduled C-section." But then we did all these transfusions and all these things and in my head, I was like, but isn't platelet meaning we have a higher risk of bleeding? But so yeah, that's another question.Okay, I think there's only one or two maybe. Oh, this is a really great question. Is it safe to TOLAC? So again, listeners, TOLAC, if that's new for you, is a trial of labor after Cesarean. I know I've thrown it out a couple times this podcast. After having a hemorrhage in a C-section. So had a C-section hemorrhaged. Now they're wanting to TOLAC. Is that considered safe?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Sure.Meagan: Okay.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Okay. I want to discourage people from using the word "safe" because I think what you really want to know is what are the risks of something happening again? So yeah, because what do you mean by safe?Meagan: Right.Dr. Nicole Rankins: What you really want to know is what are the risks of this thing happening again? So there are no identified increased risks in having a TOLAC after you had a postpartum hemorrhage during a previous C-section.Meagan: Okay, I love that. So that's good because I mean anytime anyone hemorrhages with birth, I feel like it's a little bit on everyone's radar.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right. Okay, and then I have one more question for you before I let you go, and I don't know if it's Bandl's ring or Bandl's. How do you say that?Meagan: Yeah, Bandl's ring. What is a Bandl's ring for those who it's very new to, and then can you TOLAC or have a VBAC with Bandls ring?Dr. Nicole Rankins: It's a really tight ring of muscle in the uterus where it's just really tight, and it doesn't contract. I can only recall seeing it, like, once in 22 years, so it's not common.Meagan: It's more rare.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, very rare. So it's just really hard to have a vaginal birth if there's a really tight ring of tissue that is preventing the uterus from opening. If the uterus can't open, then the baby can't come out. So that's the issue. It's not like we can release it or clear it up or anything. I don't know why. We don't know why it develops, but it's just, like anything, if it's tightly closed, it's really difficult to open.Meagan: Yeah. Okay. That makes so much sense. And is there a way to find out if we have that beforehand?Dr. Nicole Rankins: Not really.Meagan: Not really. Okay. And the signs of that Bandl's ring is just lack of progression it seems like.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Overall, it seems like lack of progression. And also, the baby usually doesn't come down in the pelvis.Meagan: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That was a one-off random one that crossed my mind. I keep seeing that one too. Anything else that you'd like to touch on? I love all of your points of stop considering the word safe and talk about, what are the risks here? What do we need to know to make the best educated decision? Having a collaborative discussion and relationship with our provider. So many great points along the way. Anything else that you'd like to add or say to the community to someone who really is wanting to know all the information they can to VBAC and are unsure of which way to go?Dr. Nicole Rankins: I think that the best thing is just to really find a supportive provider, doctor, midwife, and do that in the prenatal appointments. Ask those questions early, and don't be afraid to change to someone else if you feel. And sometimes you may not have options, but if you have options, then find someone who is the most appropriate for you because that is going to be the thing that most sets you up for success. Oh, also, get a doula.Meagan: Hey. I love it. I will never not advocate for doula, but really, I mean, I love that you're pointing it out again. Before birth, early on, ask those questions. Always have a conversation with your provider. If something is switching, it's okay to switch. I know it's daunting. It is daunting. It really is. I didn't want to cheat. I felt I was cheating on this doctor. We had this relationship. I don't even know what I thought. I thought I was cheating on him by leaving him. And I didn't leave him, and I didn't find myself having the experience that I wanted or feel like I deserved. And, looking back, I probably should have switched. Well, I didn't. I have learned, but I don't want anyone else to be in that situation of, dang it, I saw all the red flags, and I didn't switch because I felt bad.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to sound flippant, but I can guarantee you. Your doctor, if you leave, they're just gonna keep seeing patients. They're just going to go home and keep living their lives. It's going to be fine.Meagan: I know. I had a friend, and she was like, "Looking back, do you realize how it wouldn't have impacted his life at all?" And I was like, "Yes. But in my mind, I had a deeper connection."Dr. Nicole Rankins: I know. In the moment, you can't because you have that emotional connection, and you care about those things? So that's totally natural.Meagan: Yeah. And in a lot of ways, he was saying, "Yeah, sure. I'll support you." But then in a lot of other ways, he wasn't saying this with his words, but he was saying, "No, that's not my thing."Dr. Nicole Rankins: Right.Meagan: So, yeah, you deserve the best and keep doing your research. Find the provider. Get a doula, hands-down. Just a reminder, everybody, we have VBAC-certified doulas on our website all over the world. And yeah, thank you so much. You're the best. And everyone, go follow her podcast and wait it out for these new updates. Yes.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Yes, these new updates are so exciting. I'm so excited.Meagan: I'm so excited for you. That's so awesome. You are just incredible. We really enjoy you. So, thank you.Dr. Nicole Rankins: Thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Originally aired in June 2019 as our 73rd episode, we still often think back to this amazing first conversation we had with Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young!Now, almost 6 years later, the information is just as relevant and impactful as it was then. This episode was a Q&A from our Facebook followers and touches on topics like statistics surrounding VBAC, uterine rupture, uterine abnormalities, insurance companies, breech vaginal delivery, high-risk pregnancies, and a powerful analogy about VBACs and weddings!Birthing Instincts PatreonBirthing BlyssNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, guys. This is one of our re-broadcasted episodes. This is an episode that, in my opinion, is a little gem in the podcast world of The VBAC Link. I really have loved this podcast ever since the date we recorded it. I am a huge fan of Dr. Stu Fischbein and Midwife Blyss and have been since the moment I knew that they existed. I absolutely love listening to their podcast and just all of the amazing things that they have and that they offer. So I wanted to rebroadcast this episode because it was quite down there. It was like our 73rd episode or something like that. And yeah, I love it so much. This week is OB week, and so I thought it'd be fun to kick-off the week with one of my favorite OB doctor's, Stuart Fischbein. So, a little recap of what this episode covers. We go over a lot. We asked for our community to ask questions for these guys, and we went through them. We didn't get to everything, so that was a bummer, but we did get to quite a bit. We talked about things like the chances of VBAC. We talked about the chances of uterine rupture and the signs of uterine rupture. We talked about inducing VBAC. We talked about uterine abnormalities, the desire of where you want to birth and figuring that out. And also, Blyss had a really great analogy to talk about what to do and how we're letting the medical world and insurance and things like that really contemplate where we or dictate where we are birthing. I love that analogy. You guys, seriously, so many questions. It's an episode that you'll probably want to put on repeat because it really is so great to listen to them, and they just speak so directly. I can't get enough of it. So I'm really excited for you guys to dive in today on this. However, I wanted to bring to your attention a couple of the new things that they've had since we recorded this way back when. I also wanted to point out that we will have updated notes in the show notes or updated links in the show notes so you can go check, them out. But one of the first things I wanted to mention was their Patreon. They have a Patreon these days, and I think that it just sounds dreamy. I think you should definitely go find in their Patreon their community through their Patreon. You can check it out at patreon.com, birthinginsinctspodcast.com and of course, you can find them on social media. You can find Dr. Stu at Birthing Instincts or his website at birthinginsincts.com. You can find Blyss and that is B-L-Y-S-S if you are looking for her at birthingblyss on Instagram or birthinblyss.com, and then of course, you can email them. They do take emails with questions and sometimes they even talk about it on their podcast. Their podcast is birthinginsinctspodcast.com, and then you can email them at birthinginsinctspodcast@gmail.com, so definitely check them out. Also, Dr. Stu offers some classes and workshops and things like that throughout the years on the topic of breech. You guys, I love them and really can't wait for you to listen to today's episode.Ladies, I cannot tell you how giddy and excited I have been for the last couple weeks since we knew that these guys were going to record with us. But we have some amazing, special guests today. We have Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young, and we want to share a little bit about them before we get into the questions that all of you guys have asked on our social media platforms.Julie: Absolutely. And when Meagan says we're excited, we are really excited.Meagan: My face is hot right now because I'm so excited.Julie: I'm so excited. Meagan was texting me last night at 11:00 in all caps totally fan-girling out over here. So Dr. Stu and midwife Blyss are pretty amazing and we know that you are going to love them just as much as we do. But before we get into it, and like Meagan said, I'm just going to read their bios so you can know just how legit they really are. First, up. Dr. Stuart Fischbein, MD is a fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and how much we love ACOG over here at The VBAC Link He's a published author of the book Fearless Pregnancy: Wisdom and Reassurance from a Doctor, a Midwife, and a Mom. He has peer-reviewed papers Home Birth with an Obstetrician, A Series of 135 Out-of-Hospital Births and Breech Births at Home, Outcomes of 60 Breech and 109 Cephalic Planned Home and Birth Center Births. Dr. Stu is a lecturer and advocate who now works directly with home birthing midwives. His website is www.birthinginsincts.com, and his podcast is Dr. Stu's Podcast. Seriously guys, you need to subscribe.Meagan: Go subscribe right now to their podcast.Yeah. The website for his podcast is drstuspodcast.com. He has an international following. He offers hope for women who cannot find supportive practitioners for VBAC and twin and breech deliveries. Guys, this is the home birth OB. He is located in California. So if you are in California hoping for VBAC, especially if you have any special circumstance like after multiple Cesareans, twins or breech presentation, run to him. Run. Go find him. He will help you. Go to that website. Blyss, Midwife Blyss. We really love them. If you haven't had a chance to hear their podcast guys, really go and give them a listen because this duo is on point. They are on fire, and they talk about all of the real topics in birth. So his partner on the podcast is Blyss Young, and she is an LM and CPM. She has been involved in the natural birth world since the birth of her first son in 1992, first as an advocate, and then as an educator. She is a mother of three children, and all of her pregnancies were supported by midwives, two of which were triumphant, empowering home births. In 2006, Blyss co-founded the Sanctuary Birth and Family Wellness Center. This was the culmination of all of her previous experience as a natural birth advocate, educator and environmentalist. The Sanctuary was the first of its kind, a full-spectrum center where midwives, doctors, and other holistic practitioners collaborated to provide thousands of Los Angeles families care during their prenatal and postpartum periods. Blyss closed the Sanctuary in 2015 to pursue her long-held dream of becoming a midwife and care for her clients in an intimate home birth practice similar to the way she was cared for during her pregnancies. I think that's , why Meagan and I both became doulas. Meagan: That's exactly why I'm a doula. Julie: We needed to provide that care just like we had been cared for. Anyway, going on. Currently, Blyss, AKA Birthing Blyss, supports families on their journey as a birth center educator, placenta encapsulator and a natural birth and family consultant and home birth midwife. She is also co-founder of Just Placentas, a company servicing all of Southern California and placenta encapsulation and other postpartum services. And as ,, she's a co-host on Dr. Stu's Podcast. Meagan: And she has a class. Don't you have a class that you're doing? Don't you have a class? Midwife Blyss: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. She has a class that she's doing. I want to just fly out because I know you're not doing it online and everything. I just want to fly there just to take your class.Midwife Blyss: Yeah, it's coming online.Meagan: It is? Yay! Great. Well, I'll be one of those first registering. Oh, did you put it in there?Julie: No, there's a little bit more.Meagan: Oh, well, I'm just getting ahead.Julie: I just want to read more of Blyss over here because I love this and I think it's so important. At the heart of all Blyss's work is a deep-rooted belief in the brilliant design of our bodies, the symbiotic relationship between baby and mother, the power of the human spirit and the richness that honoring birth as the rite of passage and resurrecting lost traditions can bring to our high-tech, low-touch lives. And isn't that true love? I love that language. It is so beautiful. If I'm not mistaken, Midwife Blyss's website is birthingblyss.com.Is that right? And Blyss is spelled with a Y. So B-L-Y-S-S, birthingblyss.com, and that's where you can find her.Midwife Blyss: Just to make it more complicated, I had to put a Y in there.Julie: Hey. I love it.Meagan: That's okay.Julie: We're in Utah so we have all sorts of weird names over here.Meagan: Yep. I love it. You're unique. Awesome. Well, we will get started.Midwife Blyss: I did read through these questions, and one of the things that I wanted to say that I thought we could let people know is that of course there's a little bit more that we need to take into consideration when we have a uterus that's already had a scar.There's a small percentage of a uterine rupture that we need to be aware of, and we need to know what are the signs and symptoms that we would need to take a different course of action. But besides that, I believe that, and Dr. Stu can speak for himself because we don't always practice together. I believe that we treat VBAC just like any other mom who's laboring. So a lot of these questions could go into a category that you could ask about a woman who is having her first baby. I don't really think that we need to differentiate between those.Meagan: I love it. Midwife Blyss: But I do think that in terms of preparation, there are some special considerations for moms who have had a previous Cesarean, and probably the biggest one that I would point to is the trauma.Julie: Yes.Midwife Blyss: And giving space to and processing the trauma and really helping these moms have a provider that really believes in them, I think is one of the biggest factors to them having success. Meagan: Absolutely. Midwife Blyss: So that's one I wanted to say before you started down the question.Meagan: Absolutely. We have an online class that we provide for VBAC prep, and that's the very first section. It's mentally preparing and physically preparing because there's so much that goes into that. So I love that you started out with that.Julie: Yeah. A lot of these women who come searching for VBAC and realize that there's another way besides a repeat Cesarean are processing a lot of trauma, and a lot of them realized that their Cesarean might have been prevented had they known better, had a different provider, prepared differently, and things like that. Processing that and realizing that is heavy, and it's really important to do before getting into anything else, preparation-wise.Meagan: Yeah.Midwife Blyss: One of the best things I ever had that was a distinction that one of my VBAC moms made for me, and I passed it on as I've cared for other VBAC mom is for her, the justification, or I can't find the right word for it, but she basically said that that statement that we hear so often of, "Yeah, you have trauma from this, or you're not happy about how your birth went, but thank God your baby is healthy." And she said it felt so invalidating for her because, yes, she also was happy, of course, that her baby was safe, but at the same time, she had this experience and this trauma that wasn't being acknowledged, and she felt like it was just really being brushed away.Julie: Ah, yeah.Midwife Blyss: I think really giving women that space to be able to say, "Yes, that's valid. It's valid how you feel." And it is a really important part of the process and having a successful vaginal delivery this go around.Dr. Stu: I tend to be a lightning rod for stories. It's almost like I have my own personal ICAN meeting pretty much almost every day, one-on-one. I get contacted or just today driving. I'm in San Diego today and just driving down here, I talked to two people on the phone, both of whom Blyss really just touched on it is that they both are wanting to have VBACs with their second birth. They were seeing practitioners who are encouraging them to be induced for this reason or that reason. And they both have been told the same thing that Blyss just mentioned that if you end up with a repeat Cesarean, at least you're going to have a healthy baby. Obviously, it's very important. But the thing is, I know it's a cliche, but it's not just about the destination. It's about the journey as well. And one of the things that we're not taught in medical school and residency program is the value of the process. I mean, we're very much mechanical in the OB world, and our job is to get the baby out and head it to the pediatric department, and then we're done with it. If we can get somebody induced early, if we can decide to do a C-section sooner than we should, there's a lot of incentives to do that and to not think about the process and think about the person. There's another cliche which we talk about all the time. Blyss, and I've said it many times. It's that the baby is the candy and the mother's the wrapper. I don't know if you've heard that one, but when the baby comes out, the mother just gets basically tossed aside and her experience is really not important to the medical professionals that are taking care of her in the hospital setting, especially in today's world where you have a shift mentality and a lot of people are being taken care of by people they didn't know.You guys mentioned earlier the importance of feeling safe and feeling secure in whatever setting you're in whether that's at home or in the hospital. Because as Blyss knows, I get off on the mammalian track and you talk about mammals. They just don't labor well when they're anxious.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: When the doctor or the health professional is anxious and they're projecting their anxiety onto the mom and the family, then that stuff is brewing for weeks, if not months and who knows what it's actually doing inside, but it's certainly not going to lead to the likelihood of or it's going to diminish the likelihood of a successful labor.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. We talk about that. We go over that a lot. Like, birth is very instinctual and very primal, and it operates a very fundamental core level. And whenever mom feels threatened or anxious or, or anything like that, it literally can st or stop labor from progressing or even starting.Meagan: Yeah, exactly. When I was trying to VBAC with my first baby, my doctor came in and told my husband to tell me that I needed to wake up and smell the coffee because it wasn't happening for me. And that was the last, the last contraction I remember feeling was right before then and my body just shut off. I just stopped because I just didn't feel safe anymore or protected or supported. Yeah, it's very powerful which is something that we love so much about you guys, because I don't even know you. I've just listened to a million of your podcasts, and I feel so safe with you right now. I'm like, you could fly here right now and deliver my baby because so much about you guys, you provide so much comfort and support already, so I'm sure all of your clients can feel that from you.Julie: Absolutely.Dr. Stu: Yeah. I just would like to say that, know, I mean, the introduction was great. Which one of you is Julie? Which one's Meagan?Julie: I'm Julie.Meagan: And I'm Meagan.Dr. Stu: Okay, great. All right, so Julie was reading the introduction that she was talking about how if you have a breech, you have twins, if you have a VBAC, you have all these other things just come down to Southern California and care of it. But I'm not a cowboy. All right? Even though I do more things than most of my colleagues in the profession do, I also say no to people sometimes. I look at things differently. Just because someone has, say chronic hypertension, why can't they have a home birth? The labor is just the labor. I mean, if her blood pressure gets out of control, yeah, then she has to go to the hospital. But why do you need to be laboring in the hospital or induced early if everything is fine? But this isn't for everybody.We want to make that very clear. You need to find a supportive team or supportive practitioner who's willing to be able to say yes and no and give you it with what we call a true informed consent, so that you have the right to choose which way to go and to do what's reasonable. Our ethical obligation is to give you reasonable choices and then support your informed decision making. And sometimes there are things that aren't reasonable. Like for instance, an example that I use all the time is if a woman has a breech baby, but she has a placenta previa, a vaginal delivery is not an option for you. Now she could say, well, I want one and I'm not going to have a C-section.Julie: And then you have the right to refuse that.Dr. Stu: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, that's never going to happen because we have a good communication with our patients. Our communication is such that we develop a trust over the period of time. Sometimes I don't meet people until I'm actually called to their house by a midwife to come assist with a vacuum or something like that. But even then, the midwives and stuff, because I'm sort of known that people have understanding. And then when I'm sitting there, as long as the baby isn't trouble, I will explain to them, here's what's going to happen. Here's how we're going to do it. Here's what's going on. The baby's head to look like this. It not going be a problem. It'll be better in 12 hours. But I go through all this stuff and I say, I'm going to touch you now. Is that okay? I ask permission, and I do all the things that the midwives have taught me, but I never really learned in residency program. They don't teach this stuff.Julie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we go over a lot to in our classes is finding a provider who has a natural tendency to treat his patients the way that you want to be treated. That way, you'll have a lot better time when you birth because you're not having to ask them to do anything that they're not comfortable with or that they're not prepared for or that they don't know how to do. And so interviewing providers and interview as many as you need to with these women. And find the provider whose natural ways of treating his clients are the ways that you want to be treated.Dr. Stu: And sometimes in a community, there's nobody.Julie: Yeah, yeah, that's true.Meagan: That's what's so hard.Dr. Stu: And if it's important to you, if it's important to you, then you have to drive on. Julie: Or stand up for yourself and fight really hard.Meagan: I have a client from Russia. She's flying here in two weeks. She's coming all the way to Salt Lake City, Utah to have her baby. We had another client from Russia.Julie: You have another Russian client?Meagan: Yeah. Julie: That's awesome. Meagan: So, yeah. It's crazy. Sometimes you have to go far, far distances, and sometimes you've got them right there. You just have to search. You just have to find them.So it's tricky.Midwife Blyss: Maybe your insurance company is not gonna pay for it.Meagan: Did you say my company's not gonna pay for it?Midwife Blyss: And maybe your insurance company.Meagan: Oh, sure. Yeah, exactly.Midwife Blyss: You can't rely on them to be the ones who support some of these decisions that are outside of the standards of care. You might have to really figure out how to get creative around that area.Meagan: Absolutely.Yeah. So in the beginning, Blyss, you talked about noticing the signs, and I know that's one of the questions that we got on our Instagram, I believe. Birthing at home for both of you guys, what signs for a VBAC mom are signs enough where you talk about different care?.Dr. Stu: I didn't really understand that. Say that again what you were saying.Meagan: Yep. Sorry. So one of the questions on our Instagram was what are the signs of uterine rupture when you're at home that you look for and would transfer care or talk about a different plan of action?Dr. Stu: Okay. Quite simply, some uterine ruptures don't have any warning that they're coming.There's nothing you can do about those. But before we get into what you can feel, just let's review the numbers real briefly so that people have a realistic viewpoint. Because I'm sure if a doctor doesn't want to do a VBAC, you'll find a reason not to do a VBAC. You'll use the scar thickness or the pregnancy interval or whatever. They'll use something to try to talk you out of it or your baby's too big or this kind of thing. We can get into that in a little bit. But when there are signs, the most common sign you would feel is that there'd be increasing pain super-cubically that doesn't go away between contractions. It's a different quality of pain or sensation. It's pain. It's really's becoming uncomfortable. You might start to have variables when you didn't have them before. So the baby's heart rate, you might see heart rate decelerations. Rarely, you might find excessive bleeding, but that's usually not a sign of I mean that's a sign of true rupture.Midwife Blyss: Loss of station.Dr. Stu: Those are things you look for, but again, if you're not augmenting someone, if someone doesn't have an epidural where they don't have sensation, if they're not on Pitocin, these things are very unlikely to happen. I was going to get to the numbers. The numbers are such that the quoted risk of uterine rupture, which is again that crappy word. It sounds like a tire blowing out of the freeway. It is about 1 in 200. But only about 5 to 16%. And even one study said 3%. But let's just even take 16% of those ruptures will result in an outcome that the baby is damaged or dead. Okay, that's about 1 in 6. So the actual risk is about 1 in 6 times 1 in 200 or 1 in 1200 up to about 1 in 4000.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: So those are, those are the risks. They're not the 1 in 200 or the 2%. I actually had someone tell some woman that she had a 30% chance of rupture.Julie: We've had somebody say 50%.Meagan: We have?Julie: Yeah. Jess, our 50 copy editor-- her doctor told her that if she tries to VBAC, she has a 50% chance of rupture and she will die. Yeah.Meagan: Wow.Julie: Pretty scary. Dr. Stu: And by the way, a maternal mortality from uterine rupture is extremely rare.Julie: Yeah, we were just talking about that.Dr. Stu: That doctor is wrong on so many accounts. I don't even know where to begin on that.Julie: I know.Dr. Stu: Yeah. See that's the thing where even if someone has a classical Cesarean scar, the risk of rupture isn't 50%.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: So I don't know where they come up with those sorts of numbers.Julie: Yeah, I think it's just their comfort level and what they're familiar with and what they know and what they understand. I think a lot of these doctors, because she had a premature Cesarean, and so that's why he was a little, well, a lot more fear-based. Her Cesarean happened, I think, around 32 weeks. We still know that you can still attempt to VBAC and still have a really good chance of having a successful one. But a lot of these providers just don't do it.Dr. Stu: Yeah. And another problem is you can't really find out what somebody's C-section rate is. I mean, you can find out your hospital C-section rate. They can vary dramatically between different physicians, so you really don't know. You'd like to think that physicians are honest. You'd like to think that they're going to tell you the truth. But if they have a high C-section rate and it's a competitive world, they're not going to. And if you're with them, you don't really have a choice anyway.Julie: So there's not transparency on the physician level.Dr. Stu: So Blyss was talking briefly about the fact that your insurance may not pay for it. Blyss, why don't you elaborate on that because you do that point so well.Midwife Blyss: Are you talking about the wedding?Dr. Stu: I love your analogy. It's a great analogy.Midwife Blyss: I'm so saddened sometimes when people talk to me about that they really want this option and especially VBACs. I just have a very special tender place in my heart for VBAC because I overcame something from my first to second birth that wasn't a Cesarean. But it felt like I had been led to mistrust my body, and then I had a triumphant second delivery. So I really understand how that feels when a woman is able to reclaim her body and have a vaginal delivery. But just in general, in terms of limiting your options based on what your insurance will pay for, we think about the delivery of our baby and or something like a wedding where it's this really special day. I see that women or families will spend thousands and thousands of dollars and put it on a credit card and figure out whatever they need to do to have this beautiful wedding. But somehow when it comes to the birth of their baby, they turn over all their power to this insurance company.And so we used to do this talk at the sanctuary and I used to say, "What if we had wedding insurance and you paid every year into this insurance for your wedding, and then when the wedding came, they selected where you went and you didn't like it and they put you in a dress that made you look terrible and the food was horrible and the music was horrible and they invited all these people you didn't want to be there?"Julie: But it's a network.Midwife Blyss: Would you really let that insurance company, because it was paid for, dictate how your wedding day was? Julie: That's a good analogy.Midwife Blyss: You just let it all go.Meagan: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. And it's so true. It is so true.Julie: And we get that too a lot about hiring a doula. Oh, I can't hire a doula. It's too expensive. We get that a lot because people don't expect to pay out-of-pocket for their births. When you're right, it's just perceived completely differently when it should be one of the biggest days of your life. I had three VBACs at home. My first was a necessary, unnecessary Cesarean.I'm still really uncertain about that, to be honest with you. But you better believe my VBACs at home, we paid out of pocket for a midwife. Our first two times, it was put on a credit card. I had a doula, I had a birth photographer, I had a videographer. My first VBAC, I had two photographers there because it was going to be documented because it was so important to me. And we sold things on eBay. We sold our couches, and I did some babysitting just to bring in the money.Obviously, I hired doulas because it was so important to me to not only have the experience that I wanted and that I deserved, but I wanted it documented and I wanted it to be able to remember it well and look back on it fondly. We see that especially in Utah. I think we have this culture where women just don't-- I feel like it's just a national thing, but I think in Utah, we tend to be on the cheap side just culturally and women don't see the value in that. It's hard because it's hard to shift that mindset to see you are important. You are worth it. What if you could have everything you wanted and what if you knew you could be treated differently? Would you think about how to find the way to make that work financially? And I think if there's just that mindset shift, a lot of people would.Meagan: Oh, I love that.Dr. Stu: If you realize if you have to pay $10,000 out of pocket or $5,000 or whatever to at least have the opportunity, and you always have the hospital as a backup. But 2 or 3 years from now, that $5,000 isn't going to mean anything.Julie: Yeah, nothing.Meagan: But that experience is with you forever.Dr. Stu: So yeah, women may have to remember the names of their children when they're 80 years old, but they'll remember their birth.Julie: Well, with my Cesarean baby, we had some complications and out-of-pocket, I paid almost $10,000 for him and none of my home births, midwives, doula, photography and videography included cost over $7,000.Meagan: My Cesarean births in-hospital were also more expensive than my birth center births.Julie: So should get to questions.Dr. Stu: Let's get to some of the questions because you guys some really good questions.Meagan: Yes.Dr. Stu: Pick one and let's do it.Meagan: So let's do Lauren. She was on Facebook. She was our very first question, and she said that she has some uterine abnormalities like a bicornuate uterus or a separate uterus or all of those. They want to know how that impacts VBAC. She's had two previous Cesareans due to a breech presentation because of her uterine abnormality.Julie: Is that the heart-shaped uterus? Yeah.Dr. Stu: Yeah. You can have a septate uterus. You can have a unicornuate uterus. You can have a double uterus.Julie: Yeah. Two separate uteruses.Dr. Stu: Right. The biggest problem with a person with an abnormal uterine shape or an anomaly is a couple of things. One is malpresentation as this woman experienced because her two babies were breech. And two, is sometimes a retained placenta is more common than women that have a septum, that sort of thing. Also, it can cause preterm labor and growth restriction depending on the type of anomaly of the uterus. Now, say you get to term and your baby is head down, or if it's breech in my vicinity. But if it's head down, then the chance of VBAC for that person is really high. I mean, it might be a slightly greater risk of Cesarean section, but not a statistically significant risk. And then the success rate for home birth VBACs, if you look at the MANA stats or even my own stats which are not enough to make statistical significance in a couple of papers that I put out, but the MANA stats show that it's about a 93% success rate for VBACS in the midwifery model, whereas in the hospital model, it can be as low as 17% up to the 50s or 60%, but it's not very high. And that's partly because of the model by which you're cared for. So the numbers that I'm quoting and the success rates I'm quoting are again, assuming that you have a supportive practitioner in a supportive environment, every VBAC is going to have diminished chance of success in a restrictive or tense environment. But unicornuate uterus or septate uterus is not a contraindication to VBAC, and it's not an indication of breech delivery if somebody knows how to do a breech VBAC too.Julie: Right.Dr. Stu: So Lauren, that would be my answer to to your question is that no, it's not a contraindication and that if you have the right practitioner you can certainly try to labor and your risk of rupture is really not more significant than a woman who has a normal-shaped uterus.Julie: Good answer.Meagan: So I want to spin off that really quick. It's not a question, but I've had a client myself that had two C-sections, and her baby was breech at 37 weeks, and the doctor said he absolutely could not turn the baby externally because her risk of rupture was so increasingly high. So would you agree with that or would you disagree with that?D No, no, no. Even an ACOG statement on external version and breech says that a previous uterine scar is not a contraindication to attempting an external version.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Stu: Now actually, if we obviously had more breech choices, then there'd be no reason to do an external version.The main reason that people try an external version which can sometimes be very uncomfortable, and depending on the woman and her parody and certain other factors, their success rate cannot be very good is the only reason they do it because the alternative is a Cesarean in 95% of locations in the country.Meagan: Okay, well that's good to know.Dr. Stu: But again, one of the things I would tell people to do is when they're hearing something from their position that just sort of rocks the common sense vote and doesn't sort of make sense, look into it. ACOG has a lot. I think you can just go Google some of the ACOG clinical guidelines or practice guidelines or clinical opinions or whatever they call them. You can find and you can read through, and they summarize them at the end on level A, B, and C evidence, level A being great evidence level C being what's called consensus opinion. The problem with consensus, with ACOG's guidelines is that about 2/3 of them are consensus opinion because they don't really have any data on them. When you get bunch of academics together who don't like VBAC or don't like home birth or don't like breech, of course a consensus opinion is going to be, "Well, we're not going to think those are a good idea." But much to their credit lately, they're starting to change their tune. Their most recent VBAC guideline paper said that if your hospital can do labor and delivery, your hospital can do VBAC.Julie: Yes.Dr. Stu: That's huge. There was immediately a whole fiasco that went on. So any hospital that's doing labor and delivery should be able to do a VBAC. When they say they can't or they say our insurance company won't let them, it's just a cowardly excuse because maybe it's true, but they need to fight for your right because most surgical emergencies in labor delivery have nothing to do with a previous uterine scar.Julie: Absolutely.Dr. Stu: They have to do with people distress or placental abruption or cord prolapse. And if they can handle those, they can certainly handle the one in 1200. I mean, say a hospital does 20 VBACs a year or 50 VBACs a year. You'll take them. Do the math. It'll take them 25 years to have a rupture.Meagan: Yeah. It's pretty powerful stuff.Midwife Blyss: I love when he does that.Julie: Me too. I'm a huge statistics junkie and data junkie. I love the numbers.Meagan: Yeah. She loves numbers.Julie: Yep.Meagan: I love that.Julie: Hey, and 50 VBACs a year at 2000, that would be 40 years actually, right?Dr. Stu: Oh, look at what happened. So say that again. What were the numbers you said?Julie: So 1 in 2000 ruptures are catastrophic and they do 50 VBACs a year, wouldn't that be 40 years?Dr. Stu: But I was using the 1200 number.Julie: Oh, right, right, right, right.Dr. Stu: So that would be 24 years.Julie: Yeah. Right. Anyways, me and you should sit down and just talk. One day. I would love to have lunch with you.Dr. Stu: Let's talk astrology and astronomy.Yes.Dr. Stu: Who's next?Midwife Blyss: Can I make a suggestion?There was another woman. Let's see where it is. What's the likelihood that a baby would flip? And is it reasonable to even give it a shot for a VBA2C. How do you guys say that?Meagan: VBAC after two Cesareans.Midwife Blyss: I need to know the lingo. So, I would say it's very unlikely for a baby to flip head down from a breech position in labor. It doesn't mean it's impossible.Dr. Stu: With a uterine septum, it's almost never going to happen. Bless is right on. Even trying an external version on a woman with the uterine septum when the baby's head is up in one horn and the placenta in the other horn and they're in a frank breech position, that's almost futile to do that, especially if a woman is what I call a functional primary, or even a woman who's never labored before.Julie: Right. That's true.Meagan: And then Napoleon said, what did she say? Oh, she was just talking about this. She's planning on a home birth after two Cesareans supported by a midwife and a doula. Research suggests home birth is a reasonable and safe option for low-risk women. And she wants to know in reality, what identifies low risk?Midwife Blyss: Well, I thought her question was hilarious because she says it seems like everybody's high-risk too. Old, overweight.Julie: Yeah, it does. It does, though.Dr. Stu: Well, immediately, when you label someone high-risk, you make them high-risk.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: Because now you've planted seeds of doubt inside their head. So I would say, how do you define high-risk? I mean, is 1 in 1200 high risk?Julie: Nope.Dr. Stu: It doesn't seem high-risk to me. But again, I mean, we do a lot of things in our life that are more dangerous than that and don't consider them high-risk. So I think the term high-risk is handed about way too much.And it's on some false or just some random numbers that they come up with. Blyss has heard this before. I mean, she knows everything I say that comes out of my mouth. The numbers like 24, 35, 42. I mean, 24 hours of ruptured membranes. Where did that come from? Yeah, or some people are saying 18 hours. I mean, there's no science on that. I mean, bacteria don't suddenly look at each other and go, "Hey Ralph, it's time to start multiplying."Julie: Ralph.Meagan: I love it.Julie: I'm gonna name my bacteria Ralph.Meagan: It's true. And I was told after 18 hours, that was my number.Dr. Stu: Yeah, again, so these numbers, there are papers that come out, but they're not repetitive. I mean, any midwife worth her salt has had women with ruptured membranes for sometimes two, three, or four days.Julie: Yep.Midwife Blyss: And as long as you're not sticking your fingers in there, and as long as their GBS might be negative or that's another issue.Meagan: I think that that's another question. That's another question. Yep.Dr. Stu: Yeah, I'll get to that right now. I mean, if some someone has a ruptured membrane with GBS, and they don't go into labor within a certain period of time, it's not unreasonable to give them the pros and cons of antibiotics and then let them make that decision. All right? We don't force people to have antibiotics. We would watch for fetal tachycardia or fever at that point, then you're already behind the eight ball. So ideally, you'd like to see someone go into labor sooner. But again, if they're still leaking, if there are no vaginal exams, the likelihood of them getting group B strep sepsis or something on the baby is still not very high. And the thing about antibiotics that I like to say is that if I was gonna give antibiotics to a woman, I think it's much better to give a woman an antibiotics at home than in the hospital. And the reason being is because at home, the baby's still going to be born into their own environment and mom's and dad's bacteria and the dog's bacteria and the siblings' bacteria where in the hospital, they're going to go to the nursery for observation like they generally do, and they're gonna be exposed to different bacteria unless they do these vaginal seeding, which isn't really catching on universally yet where you take a swab of mom's vaginal bacteria before the C-section.Midwife Blyss: It's called seeding.Dr. Stu: Right. I don't consider ruptured membrane something that again would cause me to immediately say something where you have to change your plan. You individualize your care in the midwifery model.Julie: Yep.Dr. Stu: You look at every patient. You look at their history. You look at their desires. You look at their backup situation, their transport situation, and that sort of thing. You take it all into account. Now, there are some women in pregnancy who don't want to do a GBS culture.Ignorance is bliss. The other spelling of bliss.Julie: Hi, Blyss.Dr. Stu: But the reason that at least I still encourage people to do it is because for any reason, if that baby gets transferred to the hospital during labor or after and you don't have a GBS culture on the chart, they're going to give antibiotics. They're going to treat it as GBS positive and they're also going to think you're irresponsible.And they're going to have that mentality that of oh, here's another one of those home birth crazy people, blah, blah, blah.Julie: That just happened to me in January. I had a client like that. I mean, anyways, never mind. It's not the time. Midwife Blyss: Can I say something about low-risk?Julie: Yes. Midwife Blyss: I think there are a lot of different factors that go into that question. One being what are the state laws? Because there are things that I would consider low-risk and that I feel very comfortable with, but that are against the law. And I'm not going to go to jail.Meagan: Right. We want you to still be Birthing Bless.Midwife Blyss: As, much as I believe in a woman's right to choose, I have to draw the line at what the law is. And then the second is finding a provider that-- obviously, Dr. Stu feels very comfortable with things that other providers may not necessarily feel comfortable with.Julie: Right.Midwife Blyss: And so I think it's really important, as you said in the beginning of the show, to find a provider who takes the risk that you have and feels like they can walk that path with you and be supportive. I definitely agree with what Dr. Stu was saying about informed consent. I had a client who was GBS positive, declined antibiotics and had a very long rupture. We continued to walk that journey together. I kept giving informed consent and kept giving informed consent. She had such trust and faith that it actually stretched my comfort level. We had to continually talk about where we were in this dance. But to me, that feels like what our job is, is to give them information about the pros and cons and let them decide for themselves.And I think that if you take a statistic, I'm picking an arbitrary number, and there's a 94% chance of success and a 4% chance that something could go really wrong, one family might look at that and say, "Wow, 94%, this is neat. That sounds like a pretty good statistic," and the other person says, "4% makes me really uncomfortable. I need to minimize." I think that's where you have to have the ability, given who you surround yourself with and who your provider is, to be able to say, "This is my choice," and it's being supported. So it is arbitrary in a lot of ways except for when it comes to what the law is.Julie: Yeah, that makes sense.Meagan: I love that. Yeah. Julie: Every state has their own law. Like in the south, it's illegal like in lots of places in the South, I think in Washington too, that midwives can't support home birth if you're VBAC. I mean there are lots of different legislative rules. Why am I saying legislative? Look at me, I'm trying to use fancy words to impress you guys. There are lots of different laws in different states and, and some of them are very evidence-based and some laws are broad and they leave a lot of room for practices, variation and gray areas. Some are so specific that they really limit a woman's option in that state.Dr. Stu: We can have a whole podcast on the legal decision-making process and a woman's right to autonomy of her body and the choices and who gets to decide that would be. Right now, the vaccine issue is a big issue, but also pregnancy and restricting women's choices of these things. If you want to do another one down the road, I would love to talk on that subject with you guys.Julie: Perfect.Meagan: We would love that.Julie: Yeah. I think it's your most recent episode. I mean as of the time of this recording. Mandates Kill Medicine. What is that the name?Dr. Stu: Mandates Destroy Medicine.Julie: Yeah. Mandates Destroy Medicine. Dr. Stu: It's wonderful.Julie: Yeah, I love it. I was just listening to it today again.Dr. Stu: well it does because it makes the physicians agents of the state.Julie: Yeah, it really does.Meagan: Yeah. Well. And if you give us another opportunity to do this with you, heck yeah.Julie: Yeah. You can just be a guest every month.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Stu: So I don't think I would mind that at all, actually.Meagan: We would love it.Julie: Yeah, we would seriously love it. We'll keep in touch.Meagan: So, couple other questions I'm trying to see because we jumped through a few that were the same. I know one asks about an overactive pelvic floor, meaning too strong, not too weak. She's wondering if that is going to affect her chances of having a successful VBAC.Julie: And do you see that a lot with athletes, like people that are overtrained or that maybe are not overtrained, but who train a lot and weightlifters and things like that, where their pelvic floor is too strong? I've heard of that before.Midwife Blyss: Yep, absolutely. there's a chiropractor here in LA, Dr. Elliot Berlin, who also has his own podcast and he talks–Meagan: Isn't Elliott Berlin Heads Up?Dr. Stu: Yeah. He's the producer of Heads Up.Meagan: Yeah, I listened to your guys' special episode on that too. But yeah, he's wonderful.Midwife Blyss: Yeah. So, again, I think this is a question that just has more to do with vaginal delivery than it does necessarily about the fact that they've had a previous Cesarean. So I do believe that the athletic pelvis has really affected women's deliveries. I think that during pregnancy we can work with a pelvic floor specialist who can help us be able to realize where the tension is and how to do some exercises that might help alleviate some of that. We have a specialist here in L.A. I don't know if you guys do there that I would recommend people to. And then also, maybe backing off on some of the athletic activities that that woman is participating in during her pregnancy and doing things more like walking, swimming, yoga, stretching, belly dancing, which was originally designed for women in labor, not to seduce men. So these are all really good things to keep things fluid and soft because you want things to open and release rather than being tense.Meagan: I love that.Dr. Stu: I agree. I think sometimes it leads more to not generally so much of dilation. Again, a friend of mine, David Hayes, he's a home birth guy in South Carolina, doesn't like the idea of using stages of labor. He wants to get rid of that. I think that's an interesting thought. We have a meeting this November in Wisconsin. We're gonna have a bunch of thought-provoking things going on over there.Dr. Stu: Is it all men talking about this? Midwife Blyss: Oh, hell no.Julie: Let's get more women. Dr. Stu: No, no, no, no, no.Being organized By Cynthia Calai. Do you guys know who Cynthia is? She's been a midwife for 50 years. She's in Wisconsin. She's done hundreds of breeches. Anyway, the point being is that I think that I find that a lot of those people end up getting instrumented like vacuums, more commonly. Yeah. So Blyss is right. I mean, if there are people who are very, very tight down there. The leviators and the muscles inside are very tight which is great for life and sex and all that other stuff, but yeah, you need to learn how to be able to relax them too.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: So I know we're running short on time, but this question that came through today, I loved it. It said, "Could you guys both replicate your model of care nationwide somehow?" She said, "How do I advocate effectively for home birth access and VBAC access in a state that actively prosecutes home birth and has restrictions on midwifery practice?" She specifically said she's in Nebraska, but we hear this all over the place. VBAC is not allowed. You cannot birth at home, and people are having unassisted births.Julie: Because they can't find the support.Meagan: They can't find the support and they are too scared to go to the hospital or birth centers. And so, yeah, the question is--Julie: What can women do in their local communities to advocate for positive change and more options in birth where they are more restricted?Dr. Stu: Blyss. Midwife Blyss: I wish I had a really great answer for this. I think that the biggest thing is to continue to talk out loud. And I'm really proud of you ladies for creating this podcast and doing the work that you do. Julie: Thanks.Midwife Blyss: I always believed when we had the Sanctuary that it really is about the woman advocating for herself. And the more that hospitals and doctors are being pushed by women to say, "We need this as an option because we're not getting the work," I think is really important. I support free birth, and I think that most of the women and men who decide to do that are very well educated.Julie: Yeah, for sure.Midwife Blyss: It is actually really very surprising for midwives to see that sometimes they even have better statistics than we do. But it saddens me that there's no choice. And, a woman who doesn't totally feel comfortable with doing that is feeling forced into that decision. So I think as women, we need to support each other, encourage each other, continue to talk out loud about what it is that we want and need and make this be a very important decision that a woman makes, and it's a way of reclaiming the power. I'm not highly political. I try and stay out of those arenas. And really, one of my favorite quotes from a reverend that I have been around said, "Be for something and against nothing." I really believe that the more. Julie: I like that.Midwife Blyss: Yeah, the more that we speak positively and talk about positive change and empowering ourselves and each other, it may come slowly, but that change will continue to come.Julie: Yeah, yeah.Dr. Stu: I would only add to that that I think unfortunately, in any country, whether it's a socialist country or a capitalist country, it's economics that drives everything. If you look at countries like England or the Netherlands, you find that they have, a really integrated system with midwives and doctors collaborating, and the low-risk patients are taken care of by the midwives, and then they consult with doctors and midwives can transfer from home to hospital and continue their care in that system, the national health system. I'm not saying that's the greatest system for somebody who's growing old and has arthritis or need spinal surgery or something like that, but for obstetrics, that sort of system where you've taken out liability and you've taken out economic incentive. All right, so how do you do that in our system? It's not very easy to do because everything is economically driven. One of the things that I've always advocated for is if you want to lower the C-section rate, increase the VBAC rate. It would be really simple for insurance companies, until we have Bernie Sanders with universal health care. But while we have insurance companies, if they would just pay twice as much for a vaginal birth and half as much for a Cesarean birth, then finally, VBACS and breech deliveries would be something. Oh, maybe we should start. We should be more supportive of those things because it's all about the money. But as long as the hospital gets paid more, doctors don't really get paid more. It's expediency for the doctor. He gets it done and goes home. But the hospital, they get paid a lot more, almost twice as much for a C-section than you do for vaginal birth. What's the incentive for the chief financial officer of any hospital to say to the OB department, "We need to lower our C-section rate?" One of the things that's happening are programs that insurance, and I forgot what it's called, but where they're trying, in California, they're trying to lower the primary C-section rate. There's a term for it where it's an acronym with four initials. Blyss, do you know what I'm talking about?Midwife Blyss: No. Dr. Stu: It's an acronym about a first-time mom. We're trying to avoid those C-sections.Julie: Yeah, the primary Cesarean.Dr. Stu: It's an acronym anyway, nonetheless. So they're in the right direction. Most hospitals are in the 30% range. They'd like to lower to 27%. That's a start.One of the ways to really do that is to support VBAC, and treat VBAC as Blyss said at the very beginning of the podcast is that a VBAC is just a normal labor. When people lump VBAC in with breech in twins, it's like, why are you doing that? Breech in twins requires special skill. VBAC requires a special skill also, which is a skill of doing nothing.Julie: Yeah, it's hard.Dr. Stu: It's hard for obstetricians and labor and delivery nurses and stuff like that to do nothing. But ultimately, VBAC is just a vaginal birth and doesn't require any special skill. When a doctor says, "We don't do VBAC, what he's basically saying, or she, is that I don't do vaginal deliveries," which is stupid because VBAC is just a vaginal delivery.Julie: Yeah, that's true.Meagan: Such a powerful point right there.Julie: Guys. We loved chatting with you so much. We wish we could talk with you all day long.Meagan: I would. All day long. I just want to be a fly on your walls if I could.Julie: If you're ever in Salt Lake City again--Meagan: He just was. Did you know about this?Julie: Say hi to Adrienne, but also connect with us because we would love to meet you. All right, well guys, everyone, all of our listeners, Women of Strength, we are going to drop all the information that you need to find Midwife Blyss and Dr. Stu-- their website, their podcast, and all of that in our show notes. So yeah, now you can find our podcast. You can even listen to our podcast on our website at thevbaclink.com/podcast. You can play episodes right from there. So if you don't know-- well, if you're listening to this podcast, then you probably have a podcast player already. But you know what? My mom still doesn't know what a podcast is, so I'm just gonna have to start sending her links right to our page.Meagan: Yep, just listen to us wherever and leave us a review and head over to Dr. Stu's Podcast and leave them a review.Julie: Subscribe because you're gonna love him, but don't stop listening to him us because you love us too. Remember that.Dr. Stu: I want to thank everybody who wrote in, and I'm sorry we didn't get to answer every question. We tend to blabber on a little bit asking these important questions, and hopefully you guys will have us back on again.Meagan: We would love to have you.Julie: Absolutely.Meagan: Yep, we will.Julie: Absolutely.Meagan: YeahClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of The VBAC Link Podcast, join Julie as she sits down with Ambrosia to discuss her journey from a teen pregnancy to achieving a VBAC after two C-sections. Ambrosia shares her unique experiences, the challenges she faced, and the importance of advocating for herself in the medical system. Julie and Ambrosia give insights into the myth of a small pelvis and preeclampsia. How is a small pelvis really diagnosed? Does preeclampsia always mean a medically necessary C-section? Listen to find out!The VBAC Link Blog: Overuse of the CPD DiagnosisCoterie Diapers - Use Code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right, Good morning, good morning, good morning. It is Julie here today with The VBAC Link Podcast, and I'm really excited about our story today. I have with me Ambrosia. Is Ambrosia how you say it?Ambrosia: Yes.Julie: Okay, good. I didn't want to go the whole episode without saying your name wrong. Okay, we have it. Ambrosia. I'm really excited because today we have a VBAC after two C-section story. I love especially these stories. Her first pregnancy was a teen pregnancy, and I am really interested in hearing her experience about that because I know that it's a very unique circumstance and a very different journey as a teenager, and there are unique challenges associated with that. So I'm excited to hear more about that and about all of her journey through all of her births. But before I do that, I'm going to share a Review of the Week. This one is a throwback to 2020. I was looking through our spreadsheet and saw that we haven't done that one yet, so I'm going to throw all the way back almost four years ago. This review was on Apple Podcasts, and it says "Meagan and Julie and the women sharing their birth stories are amazing. They share real life stories of all kinds of births and helpful, useful, practical information that has really helped me feel prepared for my VBAC which I hope will happen very soon. I highly recommend listening to this podcast to be informed and encouraged. I also highly recommend their online VBAC course. It's self-paced and offers so much valuable information and good resources. It has really helped me feel ready and empowered to birth my baby. Thank you for all you awesome ladies do for women and the birth world."I will say thank you so much for sharing a review. If you haven't already, take some time, pause the podcast right now. Go ahead and leave us review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and we might just be reading your review on the podcast one day.All right, let's get back to it. I'm really excited to meet Ambrosia today and hear her stories. Ambrosia is a 27-year-old mother of three boys. Boy Mom, that's super exciting. They are ages 11, 5, and 1 month. I'm really excited to hear, especially, about a fresh VBAC after two C-section story. She is from El Paso, Texas, and she is very excited to share her story with us today. So, Ambrosia, why don't you go ahead and share your journey to a VBAC after two C sections with us?Ambrosia: Cool. I'll start off with my first pregnancy. I got pregnant at about 16. And with that, I just wanted to mention that I wasn't really raised by my mom. I had my grandma in my life most of my life since I was two. So with her, I had a lot of freedom with her, in a sense. I did fall pregnant very, very young. But she did support me in so many ways. She helped me out through all of my pregnancy, but it was more providing shelter and food and stuff like that. When it came down to me knowing what to do, that wasn't really a thing. I found myself watching YouTube a lot and getting my information from the Internet, but still, I was just completely naive to what birth was and all of that. I just went straight off of what my doctor would tell me.Once I did find out that I was pregnant, I chose a doctor and didn't really do any research with that. I just chose a female because that's who I was more comfortable with. But little did I know, the doctor that I did choose, she was, from what I've heard around El Paso from other women and their experiences and doctors too, they were like, "Oh, she's really good at C-sections. She's one of the top ladies that you would want to have to do your C-section because she's really good at it." That was later on that I figured that out. But at the time I was just like, however my baby comes out is how it comes out, but I did want to have like a vaginal birth. I didn't want to do no surgeries or nothing because I've never even broke a bone in my body, so just the thought of surgery kind of scared me. My first visit with her was good, but she automatically told me, "Your pelvis is too narrow. You won't be able to push your baby out. There's a chance that he could get stuck," and this and that. I had my grandma with me, so we just gave each other that look of like, "Oh well, whatever is best." I ended up having a C-section with him, and she schedules the C-section. Then on that day that I got it, after everything was done, she mentioned to me, "You want more kids, right?" I told her, "Of course." She told me, "Well, if you wait a couple years, at least one to two or two-and-a-half years, then you could have a vaginal birth if you would still want that."Julie: That is so funny. Hold on. Can I interrupt for a second?Ambrosia: Yeah, of course.Julie: I'm so sorry. I think it's so funny that she told you that after she told you your pelvis was too small.Ambrosia: Exactly.Julie: Isn't that silly? Anyway, we're gonna talk more about that at the end of the episode, but I just had to call attention to that. Anyway. Sorry. Keep going. Thank you. Ambrosia: You're okay. Yeah. I thought that was weird, too, because knowing what I know now, I know that a lot of doctors get more money, in a sense, out of the C-sections rather than a vaginal birth. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably why. And not necessarily that, but it's more convenient for them. They don't have to really wait around and whatnot. And then with my second pregnancy, my son was already about 5-6 years old. And so I was like, well, of course I can. I was pretty excited. I did want to push for vaginal birth, but I did end up going back to her for that pregnancy. I should have known better. But honestly, I didn't know really how to advocate for myself still because I was 21. I feel like I just wasn't adamant enough. I didn't have that confidence yet be like, no, this is what I want. I don't want another C-section. This is what I want. I would mention it to her that at almost every appointment. With the first initial appointment, I told her, "I do want to try for a VBAC." And she's like, "Well, yeah. We can talk about that in your next appointments." As I kept going back for my appointments, she was just kind of like, "It's just an in-and-out type of thing and transactional experiences trying to see if you're healthy and whatnot." I started noticing at around 20 weeks pregnant that my hands would feel pretty weird. They would feel kind of stiff and a little swollen. I started getting very, very swollen. I worked full-time. I'm a nail technician, and so I work at a spa full time, or I did at that time too. I thought, maybe it's just stress from work or normal pregnancy symptoms. But I started feeling very noticeably swollen. I would see a lot of flashes and little stars just floating and bad headaches. Toward the end of my pregnancy, I would start feeling indigestion depending on what I ate. I thought it just wasn't sitting right in my stomach, and sometimes I would end up vomiting. But at the time I just thought, oh, this is just normal pregnancy symptoms or whatever. But knowing what I know now, I'm like, no, that was definitely signs of preeclampsia. But the thing is at every doctor's appointment that I would go in for, my blood pressure was always normal. So it was pretty weird that I had that. I would tell my doctor, I'd be like, "Hey, girl." I'm pretty swollen, and I don't really feel like myself." Obviously you're not gonna feel like yourself with pregnancy, but I felt not what I felt with my first pregnancy. It didn't feel good at all. So she looks at me, and she goes, "Oh, no. I mean, you're swollen, but you're also very slim," because I am very skinny naturally. But she's like, "Maybe your family isn't used to seeing you pregnant, you know?" So I was like, "I don't think that's what it is, but okay." Again, me being not very adamant about sticking up for myself in a sense like, no, I don't think this is. So I just told her. I was like, "Okay, we'll keep seeing." I kept going for my appointments and at 38 weeks, I had one of my appointments, and then I was feeling super bad. That's when I was just like, "No, I really don't feel good. I'm very swollen." She told me during that appointment, "Yeah, I mean, you look a little more swollen than usual. I'll have you go across to the hospital to get some bloodwork done." So I was like, "Okay." So I went. I remember telling my grandma at the time, "She wants me to go do some blood work." She just gave me that looks like, "I don't know," like she knew something. I was blindsided too. So I was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna go get this bloodwork done real quick." I took my son with me, and then she ended up having to come pick him up again because I had to be admitted. They wanted to monitor me. She came and picked up my son, and then I went and got the bloodwork done. They took a urine sample, and then a couple of hours later, they're like, "Oh, yeah, you have preeclampsia." I was like, "Oh, no." I kind of knew it was that because I did a little bit of research, but at the same time, I didn't want to self-diagnose myself either. I was like, I don't want to say this is what it is when it really isn't, but I did a little bit of research and every symptom was matching up to that. So when they told me that, I was like, hey, I knew it in a sense, but I didn't really advocate for myself. I was just like, no, maybe it's normal. They did find protein in the urine too. So with that, since she found out, she was like, "Oh, no, we have to do the C-section tonight. There's no way." It was around 4:00 or 5:00 when I went in, and then that around 11:00 or 12:00 at night. That's when they started the C-section. But I was like, "Oh my god." When they did the ultrasound, my baby's head was down, so I was like, "Oh, I wanted to go through with a vaginal," and I was already a centimeter dilated too. I should mention that. I did want to do a vaginal, but she just kept saying, "No, since you have preeclampsia, there's no way we can do a natural delivery. You can start having seizures and your body's already under stress. We just need to get your baby out now." So I was like, "Okay." I ended up having to do another repeat C-section, but I felt like she just put the blame on the preeclampsia for the C-section, and then she has the audacity to say, "Oh it's a good thing I caught this right away. It's a good thing I caught this," and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, yes."Julie: You were trying to tell her almost the whole pregnancy, "I don't feel good. This is not really normal." Ambrosia: And then right when I finally told her again, that's when she was like, "Oh, I'm so glad I caught this." I was like, "Girl, no. If I wouldn't have told you, who knows how the rest of the pregnancy would have gone?" But it was wild to me. That really struck me right there. So I was just like, if I ever got pregnant again, I would not go back to her. Thankfully, my son was good. He was born and healthy. He did have to do a little NICU stay for a while just because he was under stress. And once he was born, like they said, he was grunting a little and having trouble breathing. He did go into the NICU for a little bit, like four or five days. But that whole experience was hard. It was really hard to go through with the NICU stay having a C-section, and then walking back and forth to the NICU. It was also my first time breastfeeding because when I was 16, I didn't have any guidance really. My grandma never breastfed. My great-grandma had never breastfed. My mom didn't breastfeed. I was just new to the whole experience. I didn't have a lot of people to help me out with that. My mother-in-law did breastfeed. She tried to help me, but it was new for me, so I was like, I don't even know. I was still shy in a sense. I was like, oh, people seeing every aspect of me was just weird. But I ended up breastfeeding my second for up to three years. That was the one thing that I took from all of that. It was a super nice bonding experience. But at the time, learning how to do it under the stress from having the C-section and all of that was just so much, but I stuck through that. I was really proud of myself at that time because I had really no guidance or anything with my first. I mean, I did want to breastfeed, but I just didn't know. I thought they were born, and they already knew how to latch and all that.Julie: I know. Sometimes it's hard work, for sure.Ambrosia: Yeah. I didn't know it was a learning experience for the baby and mom to breastfeed and stuff. So that, I missed out with on my first and a lot of other things. So it was nice. But that's what happened with my second. From that point on, I was like, no. If I get pregnant again, I'm going to have a vaginal birth. There's no way that my pelvis is too small. I already knew in the back of my mind that all that was just noise to me. It wasn't anything. I already knew that VBACs were possible just because my mom ended up having a C-section with my brother, and then with me and my sister, she had us vaginally. So I knew it was possible and that people can do it, but it's just finding the right provider that actually wants to take that on and support you through every step of the way. It was another thing, especially from where I am from here in El Paso, because most of the hospitals, will push and push. So this time around, when I did get pregnant, I was like, okay. We're not doing that again. I'm not going back to her. I did all my research and even spoke to some of my clients because 2024 was a really weird year where it seemed like everyone was pregnant in a sense. I was like, oh my god. A lot of my friends were pregnant. My clients and celebrities that I would even see, I'm like, okay, yeah. Everyone is pregnant around here. I would even ask some of my clients who their doctor was and what they were doing in a sense as far as birth with a natural birth or a C-section.One of them just like, "Oh, I had all of my babies as C-sections, and that's what I'm gonna keep doing." I guess it was more convenient for her. So I was like, "Oh yeah, that's that's good for you, but that's not what I want." Another one was telling me that she also wanted a VBAC too because she had a C-section with her first, and then for her second, she was going to Texas Tech University. I guess it's a hospital where they also have the students there, too. Texas Tech. So she said she was going there and that they had OB/GYN and midwives there, too. She was like, "One of the midwives who I'm seeing is totally on board with me having a VBAC." And she was like, "You should go to her." I was like, "Okay," but I don't know what happened with the scheduling. I didn't get her midwife. I ended up getting scheduled with OB/GYN. When I went to that first appointment, she did an exam and everything, and she was like, "Oh, no. Your pelvis is too narrow." I was like, oh my god. I wasn't going to find anybody who was VBAC-supportive.Again, I felt a little bit more comfortable just with a female, so I was limiting my search in a sense. I was just looking for female doctors or midwives who would do VBAC. And then I searched around birth centers, but the idea of that did freak me out because I was looking at one of them. They don't necessarily let you get an epidural. It's totally natural. I was like, I don't know if I could do all that. It just kind of freaked me out. So I was like, I don't know if I can do that. What if I'm in so much pain? That was not an option for me at the time. I ended up just Googling "VBAC", and then a doctor in my area did pop up. When I clicked on the website, it was blasted all over his site, like, "VBAC. Vaginal birth after Cesarean is possible." It was just really positive.Yeah. He had a really good success rate of VBACs and even VBACs after two C-sections because after two C-sections, doctors are a little bit more timid, in a sense, if they want to take that on or not. So I found him, but I was also like, oh, but it's a guy. I don't know how this is going to work or anything.But me just being so adamant in wanting the vaginal birth, because I knew in my heart, I can do this. I'm not too narrow or small. I'm a petite woman, but I'm not tiny. I knew I could do it. I ended up just trying him out. I went to my first appointment with him, and then everything was pretty good. He wasn't invasive either. He just looked at me. He was like, "What are you wanting for this birth?" And I told him a VBAC. And he was like, "Okay. And you've had two previous C-sections?" I was like, "Yep, two C-sections." And then he was like, "And the reason for the C-sections?" I was like, "The first one, basically no reason at all. It was just because the doctor thought my pelvis is too narrow. He chuckled. He was like, "Oh, okay. And the second one?" I was like, "She blamed it on preeclampsia, in a sense," which I feel like she really did. But who knows? I mean, maybe. I know it has its risks and all that doing a vaginal with preeclampsia, but she just wasn't willing to take those in a sense. So I told him, and he was like, "Okay." And then he just was like, "Yeah." He measured my stomach and all that. He didn't do those the pap smears or anything. He wasn't invasive. He's like, "There's no need for me to check and see and all that." That's what the doctor over there at Texas Tech did. Right away, she stuck her fingers in me and she's like, "Oh, no. You're too narrow." I'm like, oh my god. He didn't do none of that. He just looked at me. He's like, "Yeah, you're good. I mean, you're not tiny. I think it's possible." He gave me a lot of reassurance in a sense. I just kept going back and back, and every visit was really fast and simple. He didn't really didn't say much. My pregnancy was pretty healthy. No preeclampsia this time which was really good because I was scared that would happen again and that would be another cause for concern and then end in a C-section or something. There were a couple of little scares. Once I saw my baby here, I was like, no, it was literally just a bunch of scares for no reason, but they have to monitor stuff. But one of them was with the ultrasound, they found an EIF in his heart. I didn't know what the heck that was, so that scared me. But his heartbeat was real strong, so they were like, No, that's nothing to be concerned about or anything. Once he's here the pediatricians will check him out and everything, but it's nothing to be concerned about." So that they found that. And then in another ultrasound, they were telling me that the lower extremities weren't matching up with the upper extremities. So that scared the poop out of me. I was like, oh my god. My baby has these two things. So I was real scared that he was going to have something wrong with him. He told me, and I would ask a lot of questions. I'd be like, "Whoa, what are these things that you found? And what could that mean?" He's like, "Honestly, it's really nothing to worry about. We're just going to keep monitoring you." He had sent me to a specialist, so I would go get my ultrasounds with them. And then also they were like, "You're really small. There's not a lot of room in there for him," because they were seeing that his foot was really squished. They were afraid that he was going to be born with a club foot or something. It was just a bunch of little scares where I was like, oh my god. This is crazy. They always reassured me, "Don't worry if anything comes out," not wrong, but if he does come out with that, it could be corrected and always reassuring me as well. So those were just the only little scares that we really had. But overall, my pregnancy was pretty healthy. No high blood pressure, nothing. None of that. And then when it came closer to my due date, which was September 28th, he was asking me again, "Okay, so you still want to go through with the VBAC?" I was like, "Of course I do."And then he's like, "Do you want to wait for your body to kind of go into labor on its own, or do you want me to induce you?" I just wanted to go through all that naturally and let my body do its thing because I know my body can do it. But my son was just comfortable in there, in a sense. I don't know. I know a lot of women go to labor a little bit early, around 38 weeks. So at 38 weeks, I was just like, okay, you can come out now. I was getting really uncomfortable. Everything was aching. So I was just like, I really don't want to be induced though, because I also knew from my research, because I did a lot of research. I listened to this podcast, too, so much. At the time, I felt like if I can go into labor naturally, I'll have better success with having my VBAC. I know I could do it. The induction part scared me because I was like, I don't want anything to counteract with each other, like the Pitocin and then the epidural and all that. I was being not negative in a sense, but weighing the risks out in my own head. I was kind of overthinking it, too, in a sense. But when that time came, he was like, "All right." Toward the end, he would do cervical exams to see if I was dilated or not. At 38 weeks, I was a centimeter dilated. I stayed like that until 39 weeks. I think maybe even at 37 weeks, I was already a centimeter. I was hoping I could dilate even more and by the time my due date comes, which was the 28th of September, maybe I'll be ready to go. But no, like I said, he was just really comfortable in there. So by the 27th, I was the 27th of September. I had my last doctor's appointment, and he was like, "All right, if you want me to induce you, I can induce you." But I forgot what he said. He was like, "If you want to wait for your body to go into labor naturally, I'm going to be out of town." I was so disappointed. Like, what do you mean you're going to be out of town? That type of thing. He was like, "If you do wait for your body to go into labor naturally, then there's a chance. You'll have the doctor here at one of the local hospitals. It's Del Sol. You'll have one of those doctors, but your chances of having a C-section, like go up higher because it's not me." He stated again, "I have a 95% rate of VBAC success." So I was thinking and thinking, but he told me, "Go ahead and think it over. Talk with your family about it and just let me know what you want to do. Give us a call, but I do want you to go and be monitored." He didn't really mention why for me to go to the hospital to be monitored. He wanted me to get a sonogram and then I forgot what else it was, but he wanted me to go into the hospital to get monitored. I was like, "Okay." I think it was for the next day. So I think it was actually the 26th that my appointment was. And then on the 27th, I had to go to the hospital to be monitored either way. They made it a point to me. They were like, "You need to go to the hospital for that sonogram or whatever." And I was like, okay. I thought it was kind of weird, but I was nervous, too. I was like, okay, whatever. I'm going to go. I end up going. I got myself admitted and everything. They hooked me up to the machines. They checked me with a cervical exam. I was still at a centimeter. The baby's heartbeat was doing good. They came in and did the ultrasound, and then they were like, "Oh, you're having contractions. You don't feel them?" I was like, "No, not really." I really didn't feel them because I guess I had been feeling them for weeks on end. My stomach would tighten. Again, I didn't know what they felt like really just because with my past, I had C-sections, so I was like, no, this is all new to me. I don't even know what contractions even feel like. I just thought the tightening of the stomach-- obviously I knew it was something, but I thought it was like, oh, those are Braxton Hicks contractions. They're fine. They're fine. I guess they were coming on pretty strong, but they were just like that for a long time. They didn't hurt or anything. My stomach was super tight. So, with every contraction, they'd be like, "Oh, you didn't feel that? You didn't feel that? Okay." Well, they ended up telling me, "We are going to keep you overnight just because you are contracting a lot. The doctor sent you in because he wanted us to check your amniotic fluid." He didn't have a lot of amniotic fluid in there, so that's why they wanted me to go in. I ended up staying the night. And then the next day, that's when they were like, "Okay, so do you want us to induce you?" Actually, I think it was on the 27th. I did go in because I ended up staying the night. And then the next day, that's when they were asking me. And I mean, I was just like, "Okay." I guess, honestly, a lot of factors played into that. My mom was coming in from out of town, from California over here, my mom and my sister, and I wanted them to be here. If I would have waited, my thing was if I wait to go into labor naturally and my mom and sister come down and nothing happens, they have to go back, and they would miss a whole birth and everything, and they wouldn't be able to see my son. So I was weighing out all the options, and I ended up agreeing to be induced. Around 11:00 on the 28th, that's when they started Pitocin. And then another thing that I thought was he didn't really mention this to me, or I probably should have asked, too, that when he was doing the induction, it's one of his policies that he has that he would prefer to just have the epidural put. Because I had it in my mind that I want to try it without the epidural, but I wanted it to be there too. Like, if I do end up giving in and being like, oh well, this is a little bit too much pain for my comfort, I have that option if I wanted to get it or not. But my doctor had mentioned before, "You can have the epidural put in, but none of the medicine." I was like, okay. So when the time came, they were like, "Oh well, we can't start the Pitocin without the epidural placed in first." I guess it was for that reason just because if anything were to go wrong or anything and I would need an emergency C-section, that was already placed so they wouldn't have to put me out completely, and I would miss the whole birth." So I was like, "Okay, all right, you guys can place it." Once they did, they're like, "No, we're going to have to run at least just a little bit of the epidural." And I was like, "What the heck? I thought no medicine had to go through or anything." And they're like, "Well yeah, we kind of do. Just because if we don't, there's a chance for it to be a clot, and then we would have to place it all over again." And they were like, "I don't necessarily think that's exactly what you want." I'm like, "Honestly, no, but okay." It was just a little shock to me. I was like, oh, okay. That's not what I wanted. I wanted to be able to get up and walk around to push through the labor in that sense and the contractions because I feel like they would have been more tolerable if I was able to move around. But once the Pitocin started kicking in and the contractions came on, at first they were okay. I was laughing with my mom and my sister because they did come in. They had just gotten there. We were just talking, and my husband was there too. We were all just laughing. It was a nice little beginning to the labor and filled with a lot of laughs. But once I wasn't able to laugh through nothing, I just wanted to focus and for everyone to not even talk. I was like, oh, this is intense. I would have preferred to be up and moving around and stuff, but that was not the case, which I kind of expected before I had went in. You can't really plan for things to go your way because there's always going to be something that ends up not going your way. So I was just going with the flow type of thing. Whatever happens, happens. It's for a reason. So the Pitocin was definitely kicking in, and I was contracting, and then I wasn't really dilating, fast. They didn't really want to do cervical checks a lot because of bacteria. My water wasn't broken yet, so I think I was at a 1 still. They checked and they were like, "Oh, you're at 2." And then., "Oh, you're at 2 still." The doctor ended up coming in himself, and then he ended up breaking my water. He didn't really necessarily, ask or anything. It was just the type of, "Okay, I'm gonna check you," and then, "Okay, we're gonna break the water." I was like, "Oh my god. What the heck do you mean? Like, break my water right here, right now?" It was kind of shocking, too, but I was just kind of like, okay, if this is what's needed to progress the labor, then I'll just go with it, in a sense. Nobody even asked me. That was rude and not really, but I was just like, that's so weird that he came in and just broke my water. And then after that, honestly, things started getting more intense. The contractions were very intense, and I wasn't able to get up or anything. I could feel them because I didn't want them to pump any more than three-- I don't know if it's milliliters or whatever of the epidural. I wasn't pressing that button or anything. I just wanted to do it without it as much as possible, but I could really feel everything. So once the water was broke, I was just like, okay, this is really it. There was a peanut ball there. So I was like, "Get the peanut ball. Let's try to put it in between my legs, and let's see if it does anything." We did that, and it really, really made things worse for me just because it was not comfortable at all. The pain was bad, but it ended up dilating me more and pretty fast too. But it was very, very uncomfortable. I would have to switch positions and just kind of lay on one side and then lay on my other side. I felt all the contraction pain just in my back towards my butt, in a sense. It just felt intense. I'm just grateful I was even able to experience that just because I didn't feel anything with my other ones. You feel just cold in comparison to the C-section and tugging and pulling. It was a weird experience with them. They weren't really traumatic or anything for me, thank God, but it just wasn't what I wanted. So to even be feeling all of the labor pains and all that, I was just grateful to even be there and experiencing that as a woman. It was pretty exciting for me. But like I said, things didn't really necessarily play out the way I was envisioning or how I wanted it to a T, but I was able to experience all of the other things. And then they would do cervical exams. Once I was at an 8 or whatever, that's when I was like, okay, I'm getting closer because I was afraid that I wasn't even going to dilate and I would just have to end up getting a C-section. But I was dilating. And then once he came in, because I guess the nurses were like, "No, yeah, baby's talking to me. He's letting us know that he's moving down and he's gonna come out." One of the nurses was like, "He's going be out by the end of my shift. Watch, guys." We were just looking at her like, "Okay, if you say that, let's see." Eventually, I want to say it was around 5:00 or 5:30, that's when I finally reached 10 centimeters. That's when the doctors came in. They started getting everything ready. And then I was like, oh, my god, I think it's time to push. My body felt like I needed to go to the restroom and I needed to poop. So I was like, oh, my god. I feel like that. They told me before, "If you feel like you need to poop, then you need to push. Let us know." And then I was like, "Yeah, I do." My husband calls them and he's like, "Yeah, she said she feels like she needs to poop". And then they're like, "Okay, yeah." That's when he came in and all the nurses too. They started getting everything ready. I want to say I started pushing and he told me he's like, "It's literally going to feel like you have to use the restroom, so don't hold back or anything. Just push." So I was like, okay. I think after four or five times of pushing my son, I could feel him come out. The head first came out and then finally, the rest of the body. I had that huge relief of like, oh my god. I cannot even believe that I just did that. I did it. Even though all these doctors would tell me like, "No, you're too small. There's no way," I actually did it. I didn't even have any lacerations, no nothing. I didn't tear or anything. It was just unbelievable because I had the biggest fear too, that I was going to tear into two holes. There was no way I was going to not tear at all. But I didn't end up tearing or anything which was good because I know that's an additional recovery in a sense. But after a couple of pushes, he was out. I was just so happy. I was crying. My mom was crying because she was in the room with me, and my sister was in the room with me holding one leg. My husband was holding the other one, and there was just tears. Tears everywhere. It was really, really nice to actually experience that for this birth. I feel like a lot of women, too, can relate. Once you finally do that after people saying, "No, you can't," or not even giving you a chance to try, it was very, very rewarding and a completely different experience to a C-section. I'm just very grateful that I found this doctor and that he actually took me on and was like, "Oh yeah, you'll be fine. We'll do this. You can do this." It was really nice. So my son was born. He was only 6 pounds, 8 ounces. And so he wasn't a really big baby either. But still, I was a petite woman myself, so I thought it was gonna be challenging, but it was good. I didn't have any problems. No, nothing. He was born very, very healthy. Even all the nurses, too were really excited. They're like, "Oh my god, she's a VBAC. She actually did it." I kept hearing that over the course of my stay. They were just like, "You did a VBAC. That's so amazing. Congratulations." It was just so nice to hear. And the recovery, oh my god, was so much better than a C-section, just 100 times better because I was able to get up after the epidural had worn off. I was able to get up because after those contractions started getting really intense, I was pressing that button. I was like, you know what? I need more of the epidural. There's no way. Those Pitocin contractions were just more intense than natural contractions and they really were. So I did only bump up myself from three milliliters to six, I think. I didn't really feel so much pain, but I could still feel things. After the epidural wore off, I was able to get up and walk, and it was nice. It was really nice to get up and do things and not have to have that pain of a C-section and leave the hospital after just a day, the very next day. We were able to leave by like 5-6:00. I was able to go home and was just enjoying my baby. That was pretty much it. But I was very grateful for the experience.Julie: I love that story. That's such an incredible and inspiring story. There are so many things that I could talk about, but we're running a little short on time, so I want to talk about two things. The myth of the small pelvis and preeclampsia. First, I know that preeclampsia is really tricky because the induction is necessary. Preeclampsia is one of the things where you need to get the baby out sooner rather than later. It's a medically indicated thing. If you have a doctor telling you that, you don't have to question it or worry about it because it's really important to get that baby here quickly. However, there are instances where an induction may be appropriate compared to just going straight to a C-section. And again, provider preference is going to play a huge deal into that. But also, as long as your blood pressure is holding steady through an induction and you're progressing well and mom and baby are doing fine, then an induction can be a safe option as well for preeclampsia. So the biggest thing they're just going to make sure is the stress of the induction is not too much on your body because sometimes your blood pressure will go up just naturally with labor because it's a lot of work. But as long as you keep an eye on that, I know that it's a reasonable option at times. So don't think that having preeclampsia just means you automatically have to go to a C-section. But again, talk about your options with your provider. If your provider is not telling you something that you feel comfortable with, question it. Seek out another opinion. But definitely trust your intuition and lean into that. I think that if you've been around with us for long enough, you will know how we feel about the idea of somebody's pelvis being too small. Now, I think it's really sad. I think maybe sad's not the right word, but I feel like with teenage pregnancies, these teenagers who arguably need more help than most because teenage pregnancies are oftentimes unplanned and unexpected. They are in a very vulnerable situation. They need more help and more guidance. But I feel like oftentimes a system will take advantage of that vulnerability, maybe probably even unknowingly. But I feel like it's very easy for teenagers in a hospital system to get railroaded more because they haven't gone through a lot of the experiences that we do later on in life and learn how to navigate through trickier situations and stand up for ourselves and advocate. It's harder and more challenging. And so I'm really sorry that happened to and your provider used her vaginal exam to determine your pelvis is too small. Now let me tell you, there's only one way to determine an actual pelvis size and that's with a pelvic telemetry scan. It's kind of like an X-ray. Vaginal exams are not evidence based. And not only that, we know there's so much more that goes into a pelvis being too small because pelvises move and flex as the baby's being born. Our baby's head squeezes and molds in order to fit through the pelvis, so even a pelvis that might be "too small" before pregnancy can change and shift and expand and grow through the pregnancy, but especially as labor happens. So it's very, very rare for a pelvis to be actually too small or deformed, and usually that happens when mother grows up either incredibly malnourished and their bones are not able to grow properly or through a traumatic injury to the pelvic area. Those are usually the biggest or the most likely times where you'll see a pelvis that is truly too small. A lot of times, it's failure to wait. Maybe the body is just not ready for maybe a too-early induction and things like that. So I would encourage you to ask questions, ask questions, and trust your intuition. We do have a blog al' about CPD which is cephalopelvic disproportion that we're going to link into the show notes. And that just basically means it's fancy words saying your pelvis is too small or maybe your baby's too big to fit through the size of your pelvis as it is. But I'm so glad that Ambrosia was able to stand up for herself and find a provider who would support her in getting a VBAC after two C-sections. So I'm very proud of you and thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.Ambrosia: Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

While we can't control many parts of birth, there is so much we CAN do to quite literally change the trajectory of our birth outcome. First: Feel safe with where and with whom you will give birth.Second (but just as important!): Prepare yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. During her first VBAC attempt, Maria hired a midwife. Her second birth had so much more advocacy, progress, and positivity, but there were still missing pieces, new traumas to process, and things she wished had gone differently.You will NOT WANT TO MISS hearing all of the things that changed for Maria from her first two births to her third. The proactive work, the passion, the prep, the healing, the research, the manifesting, the surrendering, the trust, and to top it all off, the beautiful, unmedicated VBA2C outcome. Just like Maria, our greatest hope is for all of you to unlock this birthing power that is already within you, no matter the birth outcome. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello, you guys. It seems like a common theme lately. A lot of people are wanting to submit their VBA2C stories, and I love it. I love it absolutely so much. We know so many of, these listeners in our community are wanting to know, is it possible? Can we VBAC after two Cesareans? I'm sure you've been noticing the theme in January and February, and now here in March, we have another VBAC after two Cesarean stories coming to you today from our friend Maria. Hello, Maria.Maria: Hi.Meagan: Thank you so much for being here and sharing your stories. We were just chatting a little bit before we got started about kind of where her birth took place, and she'll tell you more. But the VBAC was in Texas, right?Maria: It was. Yes, it was in Texas.Meagan: It was in Texas. So Texans. Texans? I don't know. we have Floridians, Utahns. Is it Texans?Maria: Texans. Yeah. Yep. And you know, Texas is a huge state, so this is central Texas in the Austin area. Yeah, because it's such a big state. It is.Meagan: It is very huge. We know people have to sometimes drive really far away to find support. And when it comes to VBAC after multiple Cesareans, we know sometimes that can be really challenging. And when I say sometimes, it's often. It is often challenging to find that support. So I really like to show everybody where you are in a way because we want people who are in Texas or who can get to Texas or who find it manageable, that they know that there is a supportive provider there. We'll learn more about that. But also, just a reminder, guys, if you're looking for a supportive provider, we have a supportive provider list. How many times can I say "supportive provider" in three seconds? A lot, apparently. Go to Instagram and hopefully at this point we'll have it on our website, so check our website too, but we will have that list.If you want to submit your provider, please let us know. Okay. We have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that. This is by Whitney Goats, and the review title is "Amazing" on Apple Podcasts. It says, "I've been wanting to write a review for a while, but wasn't sure what I could say that would explain how much The VBAC Link meant to me. I had an unplanned Cesarean with my first and for the longest time, I felt broken and defeated. When I heard Julie and Meagan share their VBAC stories on the podcast, I cried. It was the first time that I felt understood and like I was not alone. Listening to their podcast has lifted my spirits, healed my emotional scars from the previous birth, and given me the confidence in myself and my body again. "I am now 28 weeks pregnant and preparing for my VBAC. Instead of being scared for this upcoming birth, I feel excited sometimes. I never thought it would happen. Thank you, Julie and Meagan, for the work that you have done connecting and educating all these amazing moms, and thank you for reminding me that I am a Woman of Strength even when I doubted it myself." Oh, that gave me chills. That gave me chills reading that. Oh my gosh. We love your reviews. That is amazing. And girl, Whitney Goats, I hope that you had the most amazing birth ever, and thank you for being here. Just like Maria and all the storytellers that have become before her, you guys, they're amazing and so are you. These storytellers are here to do that- uplift you, motivate you, educate you, and find the healing within yourself because it can happen, right Maria?Maria: Absolutely. 100%.Meagan: It absolutely can happen. Okay, you guys, as always, if you do not mind and if you are enjoying the podcast, will you leave us a review? You can go to Apple Podcasts. You can go to Google even and leave us a review there. You can go on Spotify or really wherever you listen to your podcasts, leave us a review. If you feel extra special and the platform that you're listening on can leave a comment, leave us a comment. You never know, it may be read on the next podcast. Okay, Maria, I want to turn the time over to you to share these stories.Maria: Thank you so much, Meagan, and I just want to say again how excited I am to be here. I agree 100% with that reviewer. This podcast was so impactful for me, and I hope that it can continue to be that for other women. I was also so excited that you're getting so many VBAC after two stories because I hope that that will continue to normalize that instead of it being this crazy thing that we're doing. Meagan: Yes.Maria: That's so exciting that it's becoming more common.Meagan: I know. It's actually making me smile so big because in the beginning, back in 2018, we had to search, and I mean search. We had to go on forums and type in "VBA2C" and really look for stories and almost had to seek them out. We had to go and ask, "Hey, would you be willing to share your story on the podcast?" And now we're just getting a flood of submissions which is so awesome. I love seeing it, and I would love to hear even more VBAC after three or four or five Cesareans because it is possible. It's not as easy to navigate through, but it is possible. And yes, there are risks. There are risks with anything that we do including a repeat Cesarean, but I want to help normalize this because, I mean, there are so many women just like Maria and myself who have gone on, done the work, got the education, and been able to have a vaginal birth. So. All right, well, we know with every VBAC or VBAC after two Cesareans, there's at least one Cesarean involved, so let's start with that story.Maria: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So when I got pregnant with my first baby, this was in 2018, it didn't take me very long to find my way to the natural birth world. I watched The Business of Being Born like a lot of women, and I was fully convinced that I wanted to birth vaginally and naturally if possible. So, when my husband and I decided to move to Costa Rica halfway through my pregnancy, the very first thing I did was research the C-section rate versus natural birth rates in the country. I was pretty disappointed, although I wasn't surprised, to find that the rates there are pretty high. I mean, they're about the same as the US but a bit higher in the private hospital setting which is where I was going to give birth.I didn't want to let that deter me, and I was determined to build my team. From when I was still here in the States, I started researching the best OBs and doctors in the area and hospitals. I found two in the city of San Jose which is where we were living, the two most quote unquote natural OBs.Another interesting thing I found out was that midwives are actually not legally permitted to work in Costa Rica independently.Meagan: Really?Maria: Yeah, at least back in 2018. I don't know if things have changed since then, but they are not allowed to work independently. They are allowed to work alongside an OB. So I was like, okay. I went with one of these OBs, and there was one midwife who practiced in the city of San Jose, and they worked together as a team. And so I was like, okay, all right, well, I guess this is it. I have my team, and I thought I was done. I don't think that I fully understood the intensity of birth or the mental and physical stamina that would be required of me because it was my first baby.Meagan: You don't know what you don't know.Maria: You don't know. Exactly. I took a Bradley birth course with my husband, and I just assumed that everything would be fine as long as I had a good team, and I'd be able to escape the dreaded cascade of interventions that I'd heard so much about. I wasn't informed, but I don't know. I was very intellectually informed, but I didn't really know how intense labor is. So intellectually, I knew what I had to do. But anyway, we were living abroad. I went into labor naturally at 40 weeks, and I had a very long labor which began in the middle of the night which was a common theme in all my birth. They always started in the middle of the night which I think is pretty common. And because it was my first baby and I was so excited, I was unable to really stay calm and rest.I got very ramped up way too soon.I burned through a lot of my energy in the first 24 hours of what I now know was very early labor. So by the time it was actually more intense and I made it to the hospital, I was exhausted because I slept so little. We get to the hospital and my labor slowed down, which again, I know is not uncommon, but I think I was also just not feeling very relaxed. I started actually feeling uncomfortable with this midwife /doula as she told me she was. She said, "I'm a midwife/doula." I later learned that is not a thing. It's like, either you're one or the other. I just didn't feel like she was really supporting me as I expected she would. It seemed to me like she wasn't really a doula. I started realizing, okay, this is not what I was expecting. She was more of a quasi-nurse, really, for the OB and just assisting him. She was like his private nurse, basically. She was sitting there in the room either watching me. She'd come in and give me a position, but then just sit back and she was on her phone. At least that's how I was perceiving it. I just started kind of not feeling very safe with her, and I just shut her out. In hindsight, I think I should have asked her to leave. But at the time, I didn't really know that I could do that, and that I could really advocate for myself in that way, so I just kind of shut her out. She probably felt that it just wasn't a good click. So then I began to feel pressure by the team because I'd been there for probably, what is it, maybe 8 hours or so? They started pressuring me to get things going. And so the OB approached me about using what they call natural oxytocin which is what they call Pitocin.Meagan: Pitocin, yeah.Maria: Yeah. But they're like, "No, no, it's natural oxytocin." And I was like, "Okay, I know what that is." I could already see that I was being slowly kind of backed into this corner. I refused it several times, but I finally agreed to it. Of course, my contractions became excruciating, but I just was just determined to not have the epidural so that I could walk, even though I was already plugged into the IV and really not walking as free as I wanted. Eventually, one of the nurses, after a while, came in and she asked me when the last time I peed was. I couldn't remember. That's when I was like, "Oh yeah, it's been a long time." Nobody reminded me. I just didn't think about it. I had been drinking water, so they had me try, and I just couldn't pee. It's like my body just kind of shut down. So they decided to try and insert a catheter to see if it would empty my bladder and help baby descend. So I was laying on the bed. I had five people around me trying to place this catheter in me. I was on Pitocin, so I was having these intense contractions, and they weren't able to insert it. They said it was because of the way my body was. I guess my urethra was towards the back or something, and they just weren't able to do it. That was really disappointing because I was really hoping that that would be the magic thing that would help baby descend. Finally, the OB came in and was like, "Listen, if you want to avoid a C-section, you should just do an epidural so that your body can relax, and maybe that could help us place up the catheter and then, baby will descend." I was like, "Okay, all right. Let's do it." They did it. It felt amazing for a couple of minutes, and then immediately, my baby's heart rate dropped. The OB basically just called in an emergency, and I was whisked off to the operating room for an emergency C-section. I was traumatized because I legitimately thought I was dying. I thought it was a true emergency. I was like, oh my gosh. I can't believe it. I'm gonna die. Of course, I've learned since then that a baby's heart dropping after an epidural is pretty common.Meagan: Pretty common, yeah.Maria: And that it wasn't really a true emergency that merited a C-section right then and there. That's been a really hard thing to process.Meagan: And frustrating, too, because he was like, "If you want to avoid a Cesarean, this is what you have to do," and then you did that, and then it immediately went that way.Maria: Yeah. I honestly thought he was. I think he was probably just prepping me in advance to just have the epidural so we could just go there.Meagan: Yeah, that's hard.Maria: Yeah. After baby was born, the hospital policy required me to go into the post-op room for 30 minutes to recover, and I would then be rejoined with my baby.Meagan: Oh, so your baby wasn't allowed to be with you?Maria: No. Meagan: What?Maria: Yeah. So my first 30 minutes as a mom, I was separated from my baby. He was with my husband. I was taken to this room where I was recovering alongside other people that I didn't know who were also recovering from other types of surgeries.Meagan: Whoa.Maria: Yeah, so I was like on this bed paralyzed still because of the epidural and shivering. It was a really surreal moment because I felt like, oh my gosh. I just had a baby. Wait, why am I here? What is happening? It was really, really traumatizing, and that was just their policy at that hospital. So it was really traumatizing for me. I was eventually joined back with my husband and baby, but needless to say, it really affected me.I did struggle with postpartum depression and anxiety for a long time. I had a very hard time bonding with my baby for that first year. I felt really robbed of that dream birth I had envisioned, and I felt robbed about the golden hour right after when you get to enjoy your baby and celebrate the fact you just had a baby. I felt like I never got that.Meagan: That would be very difficult. There are a lot of people who get their babies taken away, and it is so frustrating. I just wanted to give a little reminder that if you don't have your baby and you want your baby, it's okay to demand your baby and find someone who will do anything in their power to get that baby back to you.Maria: Yeah, so that was my first birth. So the second birth took place about two years later, and we were back in the US due to the pandemic. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, I was actually in Costa Rica when I found out I was pregnant, and then we moved back to the US halfway through my pregnancy. I just knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was going to try for VBAC. I was extremely confident that I could do it because I felt that if I found a truly supportive provider, there just was no reason why it wouldn't go smoothly. I had a lot of unprocessed anger and trauma that I hadn't fully worked through. I was still very angry at my OB, at the midwife, at the hospital, even though I did do therapy actually in Costa Rica, but I don't think I fully worked through this part. Even though none of it was truly 100% their fault, I still felt really let down, and of course, I felt anger at myself even for my perceived failure of my body to birth my baby. My way, at the time, of avoiding a repeat of this was to just completely avoid the hospital setting and go the complete opposite direction. So I opted for full midwifery care and home birth. I just didn't want anything to do with the hospital. It was traumatic. I was like, no hospital. At the time, we were living at my parents' home in their hometown. I basically hired the only midwife that I knew in town. I didn't really interview anyone else. I just went with her. I think in my mind at the time, as long as you were a midwife, she would be 100% better than an OB. Again, I was very angry at OB at the time. But also, I did meet the midwifery team and they seemed experienced and I liked them, so I felt really confident that everything would work out like it was going to work out. There was no plan B. Meagan: Yeah. Maria: In terms of preparing for my birth, I didn't really do much outside of remaining active. I did prenatal workouts. I walked. I was healthy. I thought that was pretty much what you had to do. I just thought again that not being in a hospital would solve all my problems, and that was the only ingredient I was missing for my dream birth, which, of course, I later learned was just part of the equation.So this time, my labor started actually pretty slowly. I had a premature rupture of membranes. It was a very slow trickle. It took over 24 hours of that for my labor to actually start. That was even after some homeopathic pellets. I don't really know what it was, but my midwife gave it to me and some castor oil that I took. I'm a pretty anxious person, so I was getting very anxious about my labor not starting because I had it in my head that I couldn't go too long without my water breaking. In my mind, I was on this timeline. I don't do well under pressure, so right off the bat, I was already in my head about it.Meagan: Yeah.Maria: I was so antsy to get labor going that I just wouldn't let myself rest. I actually went walking in the middle of the night with my husband instead of trying to rest. I was like, I will get this labor to start. I was just not really saving my energy. I was getting revved up again too soon. So again, once labor got going, I was exhausted.This time, I'd opted to give birth at my parents' home which in hindsight was probably not the best idea because I felt their presence in the home. I'd sense their worry and their concern over me, at least in my head. I was mostly in their bedroom, so I started getting claustrophobic in there. I felt like a caged lion at one point. I was like, ah. Now nobody was actually pressuring me, but I felt it. I just felt like my whole family knew I was in labor. Everyone was waiting for me. Again, hindsight is 20-20, right? I was like, man, I could have asked them to just leave for a while, but I just didn't feel like I could.Meagan: Yeah, it's their house. It's their house. It's their space. Yeah, it's weird. But I will just point out that who you have in your space and where you labor can impact your labor for sure because you're in your head.Maria: Yes, 100%. It took me two labors to learn that. Especially if you're a sensitive person and feel energy and if you're anxious, you have to be really aware of is somebody helping you or not? And if they are re not, then you can say you can ask them to leave. I just didn't know that I could do that.Anyway, I powered through it. Even despite that, I think labor was better in my home than it was at the hospital. I definitely felt more comfortable. I was more free. I was trying all these different positions and shower, bathtub, you know, everything. I felt really powerful. It was really positive at first. It was, despite the fact that I was really tired too. But it was a very long labor. Once again, my body shut down and I could not pee even though everybody was trying to remind me to go. I was trying to go, and there just came a point when my body just stopped wanting to go. We got to that point where they were like, "Okay, well let's try and place a catheter." They were not able to do it. I guess I have a very small urethra or something. Something happens in my body during labor. It's hard to get to it. This was a home birth, so they had their equipment on hand. They didn't have all the options that maybe they would have in a hospital of different sizes or something, so they just weren't able to place it. It was very, very disappointing. They also felt that I was getting weak, and I didn't want to eat anymore. They hooked me up to an IV. They gave me oxygen. This started triggering this fear in me that this was heading in a direction that I didn't like. It wasn't feeling like the peaceful home birth I had envisioned. I eventually got to 10 centimeters, and they said I could start pushing even though I didn't really feel much of an urge to push but I was like, okay, I'm 10 centimeters. I guess I'll try pushing. I started pushing for multiple hours, but the baby just wasn't descending. And at one point, the midwife could see the baby's head higher up, and she actually attempted to pull the baby out with her hands.Meagan: Kind of went in like a soft forceps.Maria: Yeah, exactly. It was very painful. Super traumatic. I was like, oh, my gosh. This is not what I envisioned. But she wasn't able to do it. He was just too high up. After that, I just remember seeing her throw up her hands and with her body just kind of say, I give up. There was nothing more that she could do for me. At that moment, with a surprising amount of clarity and conviction, I decided to call it and request to be transferred to the only hospital in my town that accepted VBAC, any other hospital would have had me go straight for a C-section. So this was my last chance because I wasn't done trying to VBAC. I was like, okay, home birth isn't gonna happen, but maybe VBAC will at a hospital. And so, we got to the hospital. When I got to triage, they checked me, and they actually said I was nowhere near complete and that I was 8 centimeters dilated, and that I was very swollen.Meagan: That's what I was gonna just ask. I'm wondering if you got swollen.Maria: I was definitely very swollen, but they also said I wasn't 10 centimeters. I was like, "What? What do you mean?" Because in my mind, I was like, I'm almost there. I'm 10 centimeters. Maybe all I need is an epidural maybe. Maybe I just need that final little push. At that point, I was okay with drugs. I was like, "Give me whatever." I'm so close, right?Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Maria: But no, they were like, "No, you're 8 centimeters." And also, my contractions had really spaced out, so they gave me an epidural. They gave me Pitocin, and they let me rest.Meagan: Did they give you a catheter and empty your bladder?Maria: Yes, they gave me a catheter to empty my bladder, but baby was just not coming down. And also, the epidural did not sit well with my baby again. They didn't whisk me away to a C-section this time, but they were starting to bring up, "Okay, it's been a long time." They also were pretty concerned that my water had broken two days before, and that was a big red flag for them. They started mentioning C-section as the safest route for me. After, I don't know, probably 8 hours there, I just kind of said, "Okay, let's just do a C-section, and we just went with it." This time was less traumatic because it wasn't an emergency. I chose it. I was also never separated from my baby, and that was very huge.Meagan: Yes.Maria: That was huge. Yeah, 100%. Like, I got to carry him immediately after birth. I was able to breastfeed him. I was like, nobody is separating me from this baby right now, and they didn't. So that was very healing, and I was very grateful for that. That was that birth. After the birth, the midwives did come to see me at my house, and when I asked them what happened, they weren't really able to give me an answer. The final consensus was that my hips were likely too narrow. At the time, this diagnosis actually gave me comfort because at that point--Meagan: It validated you.Maria: Yeah, it validated me. I felt like, okay, I tried everything. It felt like an answer. It was a neat and clean end to this journey. There was a lot of mourning still. It was a heavy weight on me, this disappointment of a failed VBAC and something that I would need to process for a long time because I felt really cheated. I really felt like I'd run an entire marathon, and that I could see the finish line only to find myself pulled back to the starting line again and have to run another marathon.I felt like I had gone through two whole births, the super intense home birth and then C-section. So I felt like, oh my gosh. I was wiped out. So, yeah. Those are my two C-sections.Meagan: Yeah. I mean, lots of really forward-moving progress with the second for sure and still work to be done. But also, you had some validation for you at the time. It felt better. Overall, it went better.Maria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely was better. It was better, but it was, in a way, almost more frustrating though because I got so close. I was like, I'm so close and yet I was pulled back to the exact opposite birth.Meagan: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about swelling because swelling can happen. You can be 10 centimeters. Swelling can happen. It causes puffiness and causes our cervix to swell which then presents as not 10 centimeters. There are a lot of different factors like a baby that is maybe not putting equal pressure on the cervix during pushing or pushing before our body is really ready for us or going in there and doing that, I call it, soft forceps. This is just me making this up, but my fingers are a lot softer than forceps. So her doing some soft forceps was in effort to help baby come down and move but could have disturbed the cervix a little bit and then sitting in on the way. So I just wanted to point out that is it possible that you could have been 10 centimeters? Yes. Is it possible that swelling could have caused the regression? Yes, there are some hem-- oh my gosh. How do you say it? Hemopathic. Is that how you say it? Hemopathic. They're little tablets.Maria: Homeopathic.Meagan: Homeopathic. Why do I say hemeo all the time? Homeopathics. Just like they had given you those little tablets that can actually help with swelling of the cervix. So if you have a midwife or you want to look into that and have that in your bag at the hospital, if that happens, you might want to check that out. While you're telling your third story, I will see if I can find the exact name because I cannot place it in my mind right now, but I've seen midwives use it, so that's another thing. And then sometimes Benadryl. A lot of the time, I'll see moms be given Benadryl for swelling.Maria: Yeah, I don't think they gave me any of that. I think at the hospital they were just kind of like, "Oh, 48 hours. Okay, let's--".Meagan: Yeah, the typical.Maria: And yeah. I think they knew from the beginning probably that I'd end up in a C-section. I don't know.Meagan: Might have. Yeah. So baby one, baby two. How did things change with baby number three?Maria: Everything changed. So when I found out I was pregnant for the third time, I, was very surprised and excited. But as soon as I actually thought about the birth you, I felt dread. I knew I was out of options mostly because my fate had been sort of sealed with this diagnosis of narrow hips. I was pretty much certain that my only choice was a third C-section. That really filled me with dread because I had a really rough recovery with my second C-section. I was really unhappy with my scar. I just felt really not looking forward to a third C-section. So I was like, okay. It felt very scary. I decided to approach my husband about trying for a VBAC again. I was sort of certain he would be nervous about supporting me about that. I felt like it was gonna be like, "Maria, you've tried twice. Let's just accept it. Let's move on." But surprisingly, he was actually supportive and he told me to just start with doing some research about VBACs after two and to get some opinions. So I did. The first thing I actually did though was I looked into gentle C-sections because I was like, "Okay, I'm going to get my kind of worst-case scenarios out of the way just in case. If I'm going to have a C-section, I want it on my terms." I looked up the best gentle C-section OB in the area. I was like, "Okay, I've got something there." Then I reached out to my midwife for my second birth and asked for her opinion about going for a VBAC again. I reached out to a few birth centers in the area, and my midwife pretty much told me that she did not think I was a good candidate for VBAC again and that I would end up likely in a C-section. Again, because she was like, "You did everything you could. It just didn't work. I just don't think you're a good candidate." And then most of the birth centers in the area declined me because they only did the VBACs after one.Meagan: After one. Yeah.Maria: Only two birth centers in the area accepted VBAC after two. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go see one of them and just get a second midwife opinion."Meagan: Yeah.Maria: When I got there, this place inspired a lot of peace and comfort. It was this really cozy little space. It was a little cottage near hospital. The midwife I met with, her name is Galyn. Can we give you the name?Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.Maria: Yeah. So this is called The Family Birth Center. It's just amazing and Galyn is amazing. So she just was very confident. I told her my entire birth story. I was sure to add every single complication and also tell her what my previous midwife had said. I honestly painted a really dire picture for her. I was like, "I have really long labors. I can't pee." You know, blah, blah, blah. I was prepared for her to tell me that I was not a big candidate. Honestly, I almost wanted her to say that so that I could just close that chapter and go get my scheduled gentle C-section and move on because that felt easier and safer. Yet her response was not a no. It was actually a non-hesitant, "Absolutely, you can do this." I was shocked. I mean, she obviously asked for my op-reports and everything, but she said that she didn't see why I wouldn't be able to. She had a ton of experience with VBAC after multiple C-sections. She even said that she had a very special place in her heart for these mamas because, as she called us warrior mamas, who really, really wanted it. She did not believe that I was too narrow because that's actually quite rare. She thought it was likely that the baby was simply badly positioned. So right off the bat, she was like, "Okay, I would start you on some Vitamin C to strengthen your bag," which I didn't even know a thing. She was like, "Pelvic floor therapy right off the bat, and you need a proper doula." I was like, "Yes, yes, yes." I'll do all those things because I realized I had not really had a proper doula in my previous birth. And honestly, every concern or worry that I brought up, she was able to talk through it with me, provide a solution or just remind me that no birth is the same. She couldn't really control or predict the outcome of the birth but there were lots of things that we did have control over.One of the things that I was really worried about was my inability to pee during labor. She was like, "Okay well, we'll place a catheter." I was like, "Yeah, but they tried both times and it didn't happen." And she was like, "Well, I'll get you a really tiny one." I was like, "Okay." So she didn't seem worried about that. I just went with it and went with her confidence. I think I decided then and there that I wanted her because I just felt really heard and I don't know. She provided lots of practical and realistic solutions that we could control. Anyway, this time around, I hired a doula. Shout out to Jenna, my doula. Also an amazing, amazing woman. I went to pelvic floor therapy. I also did therapy again to process my past births. I worked really, really hard on radically accepting whatever this birth came to be. So unlike my first two births where I had a really rigid idea of what it would be, this time I worked really hard to just sort of surrender to whatever it ended up being. I also read several books, including how to Heal From a Bad Birth.Meagan: Yes.Maria: A really good book, and Birthing From Within which I also loved. It was a really impactful book, actually. I started doing some art therapy just to process some of my feelings and just about this pregnancy and birth. I listened to every single episode you guys had on VBAC after two. I took The VBAC Link course. Honestly, I hardly worked out mostly because I had two little boys under four, and I just did not have it in me. But I was still very active with just normal life and taking care of two little kids. I did walk a bunch and did some gentle, prenatal yoga. I also did some exercises recommended by my doula from Spinning Babies. The other thing which was different was that I was really mindful of my body positioning throughout my pregnancy. I was always trying to listen to my body and be mindful of my alignment. When I was watching TV or sitting at my desk, I'd sit on a ball. I'd sit on the floor. I love to go on my hands and knees. That felt really good on my back. So just kind of listening to what my body was asking me to do and just being more aware of my body. My whole motto was, throughout the whole time was, "Get out of my head into my body." Preparation felt really different for me this time. I felt like I was preparing my body from the inside out physically speaking. Like I said, I was going to pelvic floor therapy. I was also making room in my uterus for my baby with these exercises to be in the best position possible but I was also really focused on my mind, my spirit, processing all my fears, my traumas. It felt just so much more holistic. I did HypnoBirthing with an app. I wrote down my own prayer affirmations which actually became a really central anchor during my labor. I felt just really ready this time in a new way. And not just because of my dream team but because I was really just ready to surrender to whatever was to come. And also, what was driving me was this new goal which was this idea of just giving my body a chance to labor was the best thing both for me and my baby regardless of the outcome of the birth. Even if it ended up in a C-section, I was still doing what was best for my body and my baby. That's what I kept repeating to myself. It just gave me a lot of peace because the success of this birth was not tied to what kind of birth it was. You know what I mean?Meagan: Yes, yes.Maria: It removed a lot of that pressure, a lot of that fear, and that was just such a game changer for me. Yeah, that was the preparation. A few weeks before the birth, I'd been starting to get more intense Braxton Hicks, but nothing really consistent. I was really just trying to practice the art of basically ignoring them because my goal for my early labor was to just pretend like they weren't happening. I didn't want to get too excited too fast. I wanted to ignore them for as long as possible especially if they started in the middle of the night which is kind of a theme for me. It ended up being really great practice to do that because on Labor Day, of course, I started getting my first contraction at 2:00AM and I just denied it. I was like, nope, they're Braxton Hicks. I just wasn't allowing myself to get riled up. I managed miraculously to doze off for 20 minutes at a time until they started coming on stronger. Once I realized that this was early labor, I had decided before that I wanted to labor alone for a while. This was actually something that I'd been wanting to do just to have this early early labor be a sacred moment for me and my baby. I wanted to be able to pray, to talk to my baby and to prepare together for the work which we would be doing together, both of us. I went into the living room. I let my husband sleep a bit longer, and it was a really special time for me. I'm so happy that I did that.Meagan: Yeah, I was just going to say that is a very powerful moment. Our babies are so connected and if you can have any time, even if it's just like 20 minutes. "Hey, I'm going to the bathroom." Take 20 minutes in the bathroom and connect with your baby. I just think it's so powerful.Maria: Yeah. Yes. It was amazing because I did feel connected the whole labor in a way that I did not in my previous ones where I was very disconnected to what was happening in my body. I was in my head a lot. So at about 6:00am, my contractions were getting stronger and I was like, okay, it's a reasonable time. I'm going to go ahead and wake my husband up. I also knew that my boys would be waking up soon, so I wanted my husband to focus on them and get them breakfast. And then I explained to my boys that baby was coming soon, that they were going to go stay with their cousins for a night or two. I knew that I wasn't going to be able to fully relax if they were still in the house. It felt really important for me to say goodbye and to make sure that they were going to be happy and in a safe place. As soon as my brother-in-law picked them up, I just really felt my body, okay, let go and things just started picking up. I took a shower. I had breakfast. I knew it would probably be a very long labor, so I wanted to eat. I called my doula. She came over and her presence was just such a game changer because she was just this calm, comforting presence. Not to say my husband was not, but she's just more-- this is her job. She's more objective. She was able to suggest different positions. She knew when to let me be. She pushed me when I had to be pushed and let me be when I had to be left alone. But the best thing she did was she did not let me head to the birth center too soon. I wanted to go and she'd be like, "Okay, let's just wait for 30 more minutes. Can you do 30 more minutes? Yeah, let's try this position. Let's walk a little bit. Let's do this and that." That was so important because I would have gotten there way too soon. She and my husband were in touch with Galyn, the midwife. Everyone was just super chill and relaxed. Everyone ate lunch. I don't think I did, but everyone else did. It was just a nice day. It was a cool rainy day. And then at about 2:00 PM my contractions were about 2-3 minutes apart. They were lasting about a minute, and they were getting intense. I was like, "Okay, I need to go." They were like, "Okay, yeah, let's go." We got to the birth center. I was just wrapped in this fluffy blanket. I just picked it up like I was in this daze. I was listening to my HypnoBirthing app. And Galyn, she was so relaxed about everything. Everyone was just very relaxed. It was during the daytime. She'd come in. She'd leave. I got in the bathtub at point. At one point, she checked my dilation and asked me if I wanted to know. And I said, "Nope, I don't want to know because I don't want to get in my head." She was like, "Even if you're 9 centimeters?" And I was like, "No." Okay. That was so amazing. That was such a push of encouragement. And so that was very helpful. Once again, I ran into the issue of being unable to pee. Of course, not surprisingly. So Galyn asked me want if I wanted a catheter. I said, "Okay, let's try it," but I was super nervous about it.Meagan: Yeah.Maria: But this time it was super easy. It was amazing. It went in right away. She had the right size. I don't know what it was, but--Meagan: Right size, pelvic PT.Maria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was easy. I had a ton of pee. After that I was like, oh, my gosh. I surpassed these two huge obstacles of being really well-dilated and also, an empty bladder. Like, I got this. It's amazing. I felt this new surge of energy. After that, I just focused on one contraction at a time. Each one lasted four breaths for me. Each breath coincided with a short prayer that I would say to myself. The hardest breaths were always breath two and three because it was the peak of the contraction. But I knew the pattern in it, and so I knew what to expect. I just remember opening my hands every time and surrendering and just trying to just relax my body and just accept it, and let it wash over me. I was doing a lot of visualization of my body, my pelvis opening, my baby coming down. I was so connected to my body and my baby. I just remember communicating with her and visualizing her coming closer to me. And this, like I said, was something so new for me, this connection. After about two hours of labor, there I was fully dilated. They had me do some focused pushing. Unfortunately, I never really felt that overwhelming urge to push that I'd read so much about and that I had wanted to feel. My pushing was more directed, but it felt a lot less forced than with my second birth. I decided to push on the bed on my hands and knees. My husband and doula were each holding a hand. Galyn was encouraging me. Every time I pushed and she would feel the baby come down, she'd let me know. That was really encouraging to know that it was productive pushing. I was just so focused. After about 40 minutes of pushing, she told me, "Okay, the next push, you're going to feel a burn." Before I knew it, it was the ring of fire I'd heard so much about. Although it was painful, I was just in awe that I was feeling it. I was like, oh my gosh, this means something. I'm so close. It was surreal. I was experiencing it in this weird, out-of-body way. And then the next push, baby was born. I was just in shock. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't fully believe that I did it. They passed her to me immediately. I was still on my hands and knees. I will just never, ever forget the feel of her body and her skin when I held her for the first time. It was the birth of my dreams. I think one of the other things I just loved was just that time afterwards that I never got to experience and that moment of coziness where we were just laying in this queen bed, my husband and I and my baby, and just eating together, holding her immediately, breastfeeding her like it was just a dream. I got to take a bath with some healing herbs. It was amazing. And then, after several hours, we just drove home with our baby.Meagan: Just amazing. That is what birth is about right there. All of those feelings, all of those smells and experiences and bonding moments. I am so happy for you. Let's just say you debunked the myth. Your pelvis was great. Your pelvis and your hips were just fine. It really just took someone educated to know that your baby was in a poor position and that okay, instead of doing this size catheter, let's do a smaller catheter. It's just these little things that made such a big difference. I think it's really important to vet our providers when we are interviewing them. I love that you were like, I gave her all the bad. Like, all of it. I just laid it on her. I wanted her to know everything that I was being told or that was said or that had been done. And then for her to be like, "Okay yeah, I hear those. I see these op-reports, but still don't believe there's anything that makes you not be able to," is just so powerful. So those are the types of providers, and if there really, really, really is a medical reason, they can back it up. "Okay, let's consider something." But I do love that you just came in with all of it, just all of it, and expecting her to be like, "No." And then when she said yes, you're like, "Wait, what?"Maria: What?Meagan: "Wait, what? Can you repeat that?" We really are getting more of that flack and doubt, so it's so great to hear that there's such a supportive provider out there in your area because every area needs it. I would love to see more support coming in because the fact of the matter is, it can happen. It can happen. It is possible, and really, the risk is relatively low, right? It's low, and it's something. And then we do know that to some people, it's not acceptable, and that's okay. But know that the risk is relatively low and that the world paints it to be so much bigger than it is.Maria: Right. Well and also, nobody talks about the risks of repeat sections. Right? Nobody mentions it. I'm like, why is this not being even mentioned at all?Meagan: We talk about it here because it isn't talked about. We have providers say, "Oh, uterine rupture, uterine rupture this and that," but they're not like, "Hey, dense adhesions connecting to your bladder for life, scar tissue gaining for life, back pain that you may discover in your 50s that is related to your Cesarean adhesions and pain." And then, not to mention there are a lot of things like hysterectomy, increased blood loss. You guys, there are things to talk about and complications that can come forth in the future pregnancies as well. We don't talk about those to scare you. We don't talk about uterine rupture here to scare you. We don't talk about uterine rupture or share uterine rupture stories to scare you. We are here to educate you. We want you to know there are pros and cons on both sides. If you find a provider who is all about sharing the risk about VBAC instead of repeat Cesarean, you might not want to be with that provider because there are risks for both sides so if you're getting a one-sided risk, there are some concerns there.Maria: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.Meagan: Well, thank you again so much for sharing your stories. Congratulations. I'm so happy that you found the right provider. You found the dream team. Everyone was on your side and supporting you along the way.Maria: Thank you, Meagan. Again, I think that's only one part of the equation. We as the moms have that other responsibility of really healing ourselves and our past traumas and doing more than just, I guess, working out. A lot of people don't think about the inner work that we have to make for our pelvic floor and even the uterus with making space for your baby in there for optimal positioning. I never heard of these things before you. All of that knowledge was very helpful.Meagan: Yeah, there's a lot of work. Before we started recording you were like, "With my second birth, I just hired a midwife and put it in her hands and was like, hey, I did the work. I hired a midwife," but there's so much more than that. And yeah, finding a supportive provider, getting the education, but there's so much work. We talk about this in our VBAC course-- mental and physical prep. We talk about it early on in the book because it is such a big part of how things can go and if we don't do those things, it can impact us. That doesn't mean you can't get through it and have a VBAC. I don't want to say if you don't go to therapy, you won't get a VBAC or if you don't do these things, but these things will impact you in a positive way more than a negative. I also want to talk about trauma and birth and going through and working through it from the inside out. It's not even birth. It's life. It's affecting us for life. We hold trauma in our body. We hold emotions. We pent them up and yeah, it's just you. We gotta work through them. We can't just shove them in and be like, "Well, that was that. I'll let it go," because it's not going to be let go. It's inside of us.Maria: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. It'll show up. It will show up. It might be years. It might be months, you never know, but it's important to work through it. Okay, well I will not take any more of your time because I know you've already been with me for a bit, and I just wanna thank you again.Maria: Thank you so much, Meagan. It's been such an honor.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes.”In this episode, we chat about premature rupture of membranes (PROM) with Noel, a stay-at-home mom from Texas, as she shares her personal experiences and successful VBAC story. We dive deep into the importance of finding a supportive provider and the realities of induction. Noel was never able to fully dilate during her first birth. She and Meagan talk about the impact of meaningful milestones (like reaching 10 centimeters!) during a VBAC labor. Also, it's never too early to hire your doula!Premature Rupture of MembranesPreterm and Term Prelabor Rupture of MembranesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is March which means it is my second C-section baby's birth month. I love March so much because it's also when the sun starts feeling a little bit warmer, and you start hearing some birds chirp. We're kind of getting to that spring season, depending on where you are. Let's be honest, I'm in Utah, so it's still probably snowing every day in March. But I love March so much. And we're kicking it off with a really great episode. We have our friend, Noel. Hello, Noel.Noel: Hi.Meagan: I am so excited for her to be on today. She is actually in Texas, and tell us where again in Texas.Noel: The Woodlands, Texas. It's right near Houston.Meagan: Okay, perfect. And this is where you had your baby?Noel: No, so I actually had my baby in Dallas. That's where we were living at the time.Meagan: You were in Dallas. It says it right here on your little form. Okay, so she was in Dallas, you guys. So Dallas peeps or really just Texas peeps or really anybody. We know people travel for support and things like that. This is definitely a story to listen to. And then we are going to be talking a little bit about PROM. If you haven't ever heard about PROM, PROM is P-R-O-M and that means premature rupture of membranes, which means your water breaks, but labor doesn't really start, so it breaks prematurely to labor beginning.There's also PPROM, premature rupture of membranes, which means your baby is preterm. So we're going to dive into that in just a minute. But I wanted to tell you a little bit more about Noel. She is a stay-at-home mom with two boys. One is 3.5 and one is 5, so it's been a little bit since she had her baby. She actually submitted a while ago. We found this and I was like, I really want to talk about this because one, we talk about PROM, two, we talk about finding a supportive provider, and three, we talk about induction. I think it's important to note that if VBAC is more ideal without induction stereotypically, but it is still very, very possible with induction. I think there are so many people who are told that it's not possible out there or don't think it's possible or think that the risk is just astronomically increased when it comes to induction, and that's not true. So Noel has been doing lots of great things. In fact, she just told me a fun thing. She just started a company. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Noel: Yeah. So we just started a travel agency. It's called Noel Mason Travel, and I'm specializing in Disney. I love Disney, Disney cruises, Universal, all-inclusives, and then eventually just catch-all travel.So yeah. I'm excited. Meagan: Love it. Fun fact about me that you might not know, and it's even more about my husband, we're a big Disney family. In fact, we just went to Disney World for the second time this year. We just got back literally two days ago.Noel: Oh my gosh. We're about to go.Meagan: We love Disney World so much. And my husband is a die-hard Disney fan.Noel: It's so fun.Meagan: It's exciting.I was just told recently by a friend that we definitely need to try a cruise, so maybe we need to connect. But yes, if you guys are looking to take your family to Disney World, definitely reach out to Noel. Of course, you can ask VBAC questions. Noel: Yeah.Meagan: Okay, so I'm going to go back. In addition to starting a travel agency, she loves cooking and is very passionate about pregnancy. She actually started an Instagram documenting her VBAC journey. In addition to fun and travel, I wanted to see if you could tell us more about your Instagram page where people can go and follow that page from when you were doing that.Noel: Yeah, so it's called Docnoelmason. I'm obviously not a doctor, it was just kind of a joke. But I created that Instagram at a time when I was grieving my first birth. After therapy, I realized how important it was for me to just talk. It didn't matter if anyone was listening. I just wanted to talk and educate. I created this Instagram basically just to educate my friends, none of them who were pregnant yet, on how to avoid a C-section, C-section recovery, if you have one. It was just a video diary. There's so much content of me just sitting on the couch to my camera, ugly views, just talking about what was currently going on.Meagan: I love that. I think that's going to be something that people will connect with because that's where we're all at. We just want to sit there and hear where someone else who's going through the exact same thing is. I just feel like we connect so much and that's why I love our community on Facebook, and I love this podcast, and of course, we love our Instagram pages and things and hearing everybody connect. We've been told that people have made actual friendships through this community. It's so awesome. So thank you for sharing that. We will have all of the links for the Instagram page and her new travel agency in the show notes if you are interested in checking that out. We do have a topic of the week instead of a review of the week. If you're just joining us, we have, for so many years, done a review every single week where people comment and leave reviews, and we share them. We're still loving those, and we're still sharing those. So if you haven't yet, leave us a review on the podcast. It really does help us so much in so many ways and truly helps other Women of Strength just like you find the podcast. You can check that out at Google. You can Google "The VBAC Link" or on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to your podcast, leave a review. It'd be greatly appreciated. But today, we do have a topic of PROM. So like I mentioned, Noelle had PROM. I had PROM. She's gonna tell you more about her story of PROM. And I've shared my story a million times about PROM, but they say 10% of pregnancies will have PROM, premature rupture of membranes. I was 3 for 3. It just happened for me. That can be sometimes hard because water breaks, and what do we do? I mean, Noel, what were you told to do if your water broke? Did anyone say anything?Noel: With the first pregnancy, I was told to go straight to the hospital. Don't delay. Get there immediately. With the second pregnancy and a better team, I was told, "Just keep doing what you're supposed to do." Walk if you want to, but just act like nothing's happened.Meagan: Go carry on with normal life.Noel: Carry on. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. That is definitely something that we would suggest. Now, there are certain things that we want to watch out for. If our water breaks and it's green, nasty, meconium-stained, it might be a reason to go in to your provider or call your provider and have a discussion with them. There's prolapsed cord. That can happen, and that is a very serious situation where we need to get on our head and get our butt in the air and get to the hospital. If there is a cord coming out after your water breaks, it is an emergency situation and is not something to just hang out and carry on with normal life. But when water breaks, what I was instructed to do with my third pregnancy, also like you with a better team, a more educated self and I had doulas and midwives and everybody. It was your water breaks, you do a little check-in. What does the color look like? Okay, is it clear? How are you feeling? Do you feel like you have a fever? Do you feel flu-like symptoms? Maybe take your actual temperature and see if you have a temperature. Okay. We don't have a temperature. We're not contracting. All is well. Put a pad on. It's probably going to keep coming. Just to let you know, you will keep leaking and then keep going. Keep going. Now, it is important to know that it can take hours. I'm serious. Hours and hours for labor to start. And Noel's going to share her story in a second. But for me, it really took 18 hours until I was really going with my second. And then with my first, I actually started contracting soon-ish. So it might not be technically PROM, but I started cramping and contracting, but it really took until 12 hours for me to even be 3 centimeters dilated which was very normal as a first-time mom. Know that if your water breaks, it is not like, run to the hospital. We're having a baby right this second. You're gonna have a baby in the car. It's not always like that when your water breaks and contractions aren't starting. So just to let you know, about 95% of all births will occur within 28 hours of PROM when it happens at term at 37 weeks. Now, PPROM is, like I said, preterm premature rupture of membranes. That is something that you will probably want to go in for if your baby is preterm. That happens at about 3% of pregnancies. I just think it's important to note that it happens. Noel and I are proof of that. If it happens, it doesn't mean run. You don't have to run to the hospital. You don't have to think you're having a baby right this moment, but it's something I suggest checking in with your provider about beforehand saying, "If my water breaks, what would you suggest?" They might suggest go straight to the hospital. We know it's not necessarily what you need to do, but at least you know your provider's suggestions. Okay. All right, we are going to take a quick break for the intro, and then we're going to get into Noel's story. All right, Ms. Noel. I have taken so much of your time already, so thank you so much for talking PROM with me. Yeah, let's turn the time over to you.Noel: Okay. So with my first birth, I was the first of my friends to get pregnant and I just had this very fairytale view of pregnancy and birth. I really just knew what happened in movies. So like you said, the water breaks, it's water everywhere, and you run to the hospital. I just had no idea what to expect. I had listened to some birth stories enough to know that getting a doula would be important, but at the time, I thought that is way too expensive and something that I, in my first pregnancy, don't need which is so silly looking back now, especially with my C-section bill being what it was "too expensive". It would have saved me a lot of money. But yeah, I did no techniques like Spinning Babies, no chiro, no PT. I just felt very unprepared. And looking back now, I think my doctor really preferred it that way. I think she didn't ever push me in that direction. I also had SPD and it basically felt like a knife was jamming up anytime I would walk. And again, my doctor never pushed me in any direction. She just said, "Rest when you can." That was awful. I was also told I had an anterior placenta which is a weird thing to remember, but I remember being a little bit scared by that. I guess that's why I logged it. They told me there was no risk to having one. It didn't really matter. But now looking it up, of course I know that can really affect the position of your baby. So flash forward to my growth scan. No surprise, I was told that he was sunny-side up. Of course, I asked, "Is there anything I need to do? Does that matter?" And the doctor said, "No, totally fine. Doesn't matter." You'll have a healthy Baby. So I said, "Okay." They found my fluid was low on that scan as well. Of course, I didn't ask what the level was. I just said, "Okay." They said, "We want to induce you in the next few days." So again, I was so excited to have this baby out. With my first one, I was like, let's get it on the books.Meagan: That's very common.Noel: Yeah. Yeah. So many of my friends I see doing the same thing. Again, you just don't know any better. You're ready to not be pregnant. We scheduled it for July 3rd, which again, I think was a huge mistake a day before a holiday. But again, I wasn't really thinking. I was put on Pitocin. I was already a little bit dilated, put on Pitocin and I was dilating about a centimeter every hour. Pretty uneventful. I would have to move positions. The baby's heart was acting up a little bit, but nothing really to worry about. I got to 9 centimeters. They brought out the table, all the fun vacuum forceps, and I was ready to go. That was probably 4:00. Well, every hour they kept coming in and checking me, and I was still a 9. So a couple hours into that, my doctor came in and said, "We're going to have an emergency C-section." That was that. No questions, just this is what's happening.Meagan: Can I ask why they called an emergency? Was baby struggling or did they just use the emergency to justify as being a Cesarean?Noel: Yeah, I think at the time of day, "Let's get this baby out of you before it's midnight. We want to go home." But no, aby was fine. Like I said, the heart was acting up a little bit, but no one was concerned. She just said, "This is too long to be dilated like this and not have any movement." Again, a first-time mom, I was just like, okay. I remember crying. My mom's crying. I'm crying. We're both just a little nervous about what's about to happen. The doctor came in and sees us crying and goes, "Don't worry, I'm going to have you back in that bikini by the end of summer." It still just has stuck with me what a routine moment this was for her and not a big deal to her. She just thought I would be worried about my body. It was just so ridiculous. The birth was fine. You know, we talked about the Bachelorette. It just was not what I thought would happen as they were operating.Meagan: During your birth?Noel: During my surgery, both the JOBs are talking about the Bachelorette, and I'm chiming in, and I'm just thinking, this is not what I had planned. This is not the moment I envisioned. It was really weird. So that next morning I'm recovering and my mom comes in and is like, "Hey, I don't know if you know, but one of my friends had a VBAC after her C-section with her second baby. She had a VBAC." And I asked her what a VBAC was and we talked about it. Right then I decided, this is what I'm going to do. I'm not doing this again. I am not doing this again. I'm going to have a VBAC. Flash forward about a year, I decided we would get pregnant again or would start trying, and we got pregnant right away. Thank God. In this time, I happened to find this article on Google listing hospitals to avoid for C-sections in the United States. Yep. You know, the article. Mine was number eight. Number eight. I could only laugh at that point, like, okay, all right. This time I'm going to be doing my research.Meagan: Yeah.Noel: So when it came to choosing my provider, I really felt like that was the biggest thing that could set me up for success. I knew I wanted to have the baby in a hospital again. I wasn't sure if it was going to be with a midwife or OB. I joined a Facebook page. It wasn't ICAN, and it was a group our of Dallas. It was a C-section Awareness Group, the Dallas page. There was a supportive OB who was mentioned there.  I had an appointment with him and he was fine. Nothing to write home about. This was also during COVID, so all of those rules were in place and work mattered. I also started searching for a doula at 8 weeks because I just figured, if I'm going to have one, let's have one. I'm going to have them the whole time. One of those doulas suggested moving practices to a group called Dallas Midwife Associates, and now they're Midwife and Co. They are known for supporting VBACs, and the hospital that they deliver in Baylor is also known for just being a very VBAC-supportive hospital. So I switched to that group, and the coolest thing about them is you see a different midwife every appointment you go to. They just cycle you. So by the time you're ready to have your baby, you know everyone on the team. They all know you. You're not worried about your provider being on vacation. There's no pressure for induction or anything. They were so amazing and awesome cheerleaders. The OB who they are in practice with who would do a C-section if I needed one or became high-risk and had to go see him, he was also supportive. So that was awesome. I could not recommend them highly enough. But yeah, just preparing this time, I think, being so clear with myself about why I wanted this VBAC. For me, it was the biggest thing at the time was the recovery. My kids were going to be 21 months apart, and I did not see how I was going to be able to have a baby and another baby if I can't lift up the first one. He was still in a crib. I didn't see how that was going to work. And so the recovery was super important to me. The experience was important to me. I wanted to do everything in my power this time to know that if I had a C-section, it was a true emergency, and that I could look back on that birth and say, "Well, this is what was supposed to happen. This is why C-sections exist," and not, "Oh, gosh, I could have done XYZ differently this time." I also had the SPD again and was not about to let that fly. With a toddler, you're constantly moving, so I couldn't be in pain all the time. I went to go see a chiropractor. I went to physical therapy. They both recommended Spinning Babies as well as my doula. So I did Spinning Babies. I was kind of crazy about it. The whole don't recline more than 90 degrees, the flashlight trick thing, that was everything to me. So 30 weeks on, you would not catch me reclining. I sat with the best posture or just laid flat on the couch because I was not about to have a sunny-side-up baby.Meagan: I can totally relate to that. I didn't sit on a couch. I didn't even sit on a couch because I was like, I'll sink too much and it will turn my pelvis in. I remember driving all back up and pelvis tucked forward.Noel: On the tip of your chair.Meagan: On the tip of my chair not wanting to have a posterior baby at, all. And then I got one.Noel: It just shows you-- yeah, exactly. You're not really in control of it. I asked about my placenta this time. Again, that's nothing you can prevent, but I knew I had lower chances if it wasn't anterior. That was good for me to know that if it was, I would need to work even harder. I don't know how I could sit up any straighter, but do my best. And then I also had what's called an overactive uterus. I guess I just had constant Braxton Hicks. Google would tell you to go into the hospital, you are in labor. So many Braxton Hicks. My belly was just constantly hard. So because of that, I didn't do any of the tea. That would make it worse. Anytime I tried, I would have more Braxton Hicks.Meagan: Because it's a uterine toner. So that's what it is. It is made to help a uterus that is contracting be more efficient. If your uterus is hyperactive already contracting, it's going to try and make it contract.Noel: Yeah, it would go nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I did do the dates. I'm a big believer in the dates. Plus they taste awesome. So there was really no harm in that. Okay, so flash forward. It's 38 weeks. I was off and on higher blood pressure. But on that day, I had a reading of 137/95. They began to get a little worried and just said, "Okay, you should monitor this at, home that whole week, and then at 39 weeks, we can figure out if this is still a problem." They did mention an induction if the blood pressure continued to rise or stay the same. I came in at 39 weeks. I was planning on not getting my membranes swept. I wasn't into the risk of that, but with the induction looming, I guess I should say. They did test my blood pressure that day, and it was 137/100. The protein in the urine was negative, but they were still a little worried because it wasn't really going down. I went out to the parking lot. I called my doula, and we decided that I would get swept at that point. The induction was just going to be a few days away, so we figured the risk was probably worth it at that point and went ahead to get checked for how dilated I was. I really wanted to start with the Foley bulb instead of Pitocin if it was possible, but they ended up finding I was 4 centimeters dilated and 70% effaced. Meagan: Okay, that's great.Noel: It looked like I was ready to go. I got swept that same day. Again, I said this was COVID, and the shots had been out for like a month. I found a place for my husband to go get a COVID vaccine because I was crazy pregnant, hormonal, and I kept hearing all these horrible stories about husbands not being able to be in the birth because of them having COVID or something. He's a Baylor sports fan, and Baylor been awful for forever but happened to make it to the national championship that day and that night. He was like, "I don't want to feel sick for this game. I'm not going to get it." Of course, me being almost 40 weeks pregnant could have cared less how he felt and if he was going to feel sick, so the poor guy gets his shot. I'm having contractions at that point, thinking that it worked. So I'm walking around the living room like we're about to have this baby, and he starts shaking and drops his water. Glass shatters all over the ground. He came down with a 104 fever in the middle of this game he has been waiting for his whole entire life. I'm contracting. It was so stressful. So I called my neighbor and was like, "Hey, I think I'm having this baby tonight. I might need you to drive me to the hospital. I don't know if Luke's going to be able to be there." I mean, he was in bed, not okay. Awful, huh? It was so awful. I was just praying, "Lord, I know I've been asking for this baby to come, but please, please, please, can you stop all of this?" I woke up, and completely, everything had stopped. So thankfully, his fever went away throughout that next day. My doula recommended I go to get acupuncture. I thought acupuncture was the same thing as acupressure. I was expecting to go in for a massage.Meagan: Yeah, very different. Very different.Noel: Very different. Very different. I was a little freaked out by all the needles. The next morning I woke up and thought, "Oh, crap, that didn't work. What was the point?" That morning was the 8th. I had an appointment later that day to talk about the induction. I dropped off my son at school. I always heard on this podcast, labor will start when you put your kid to bed or they go to school. I always thought that was so funny. I didn't think it would be me. I dropped off my son at school. I go to my chiropractor's office, and I text my doula and I'm like, "I think my thighs are wet. I feel like maybe my water broke." But, you know, there's so much nasty stuff going on down there at the end of pregnancy. I kind of talked myself out of it. I went to the bathroom and was like, no, I'm just not in control my bladder anymore. I don't know what's going on. On the whole drive home, I just felt more and more liquid. And then getting out of my car, my neighbor and I were getting out at the same time, and I start walking and could just feel more and more wetness. I just stopped and waited for him to go inside. And finally it hit me like, okay, this is my water. Yeah. So I called my midwives and my doula and everyone said, "Just continue doing what you're doing. Everything looked normal. The liquid was clear. I really did not want to be induced. They knew that. My doula knew that." So that whole day, I did everything I could. I did curb-walking. My doula gave me a circuit to work on. I did the Spinning Babies, and nothing happened. My blood pressure was still high, so they wanted to see me that afternoon to do a stress test to make sure the baby was okay and check on blood pressure again. So I went in, did the stress test, baby was fine. But they said, "We'd like you to go to the hospital tonight around 9:00 if nothing has started." Nothing started, so I was upset. But again, I trusted my team and that was the difference here. They were still great with me having a VBAC with Pitocin. There was never a moment where they considered not letting that happen. So I got to the hospital, asked if I could labor until 3:00 AM and just see if it started. Didn't start. They got me on that Pitocin. And at this point, I was still hoping to do things as natural as I could while being in the hospital. I was really hoping to avoid an epidural. I again was not happy about the risks of an epidural, but those Pitocin contractions really were coming on strong. I remember going and trying to labor on the toilet and sitting on the toilet and feeling and hearing what felt like a bowling ball, like a dunk, and I think it was probably the baby settling into a better position. At the time, I hated it. I hated that feeling. I literally looked around and was like, "Did you guys hear that?" It felt internally so loud. At that moment, the contractions started coming on even stronger than before. At this point, it had been 24 hours without sleep. I was not taking the contractions well. I said, "Let's do a check. If I am an 8 or higher, I'm having this baby with that epidural. If not, we'll see what happens." I was still a 4. And so again, I don't think I would recommend it if you would like to go without an epidural. Don't get checked. Just don't get checked. I knew that. I knew that, but it was a different moment when I was actually in labor. So the upside is I was finally able to rest whenever I got that epidural. A couple hours later, I was a full 10 and ready to go. They had me labor down for a little bit, but I will never forget that moment as a VBAC mom when they told me I was out a 10 having never gotten to the 10. Oh, I get chills just thinking about it. It was so special. I labored down for an hour. They turned down the epidural. I could not feel my legs. And so again, Baylor is a teaching hospital. So I had a nurse in training, I guess I had my midwife and then they had a midwife in training at the time, and then husband and my doula all in my room just surrounded. My husband hates it when I say this, but it was the feminine energy. It was just so amazing. Everyone was so hyped and excited for me. I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes. I felt like I was in a throw up. I had this ugly rag on me, but I could have cared less. I was just so excited to get to push. The baby came out with my first. My first baby was 7 pounds-12 ounces, 21 inches long, a normal-sized baby. This baby came out and was 10-pounds, 4-ounces, and 24 inches long. I grew a mega-baby compared to this first one. It was just so great. I didn't do the growth scan with this baby because I was so afraid that if they told me that the baby was big that I might be tempted to get a C-section or scared out of having a VBAC. I knew our bodies were made to do this. No matter how big this baby is, my body can do it. So yeah, that was that.Meagan: Oh my gosh, that is amazing. I am so grateful that you had that team and that energy because that energy is so important, and I do believe that it helps us VBAC moms, and really any mom get through that end stretch that sometimes can be intimidating or it can be longer, and then I love hearing that you got to not only have your VBAC, but then it was like, "Not only did I VBAC, I VBAC'd with a baby that was almost three pounds heavier, bigger than my other baby." So many Women of Strength listen to this podcast. I'm sure you've seen it in your forums. People don't believe that they can do it because our providers and our system tell us we can't because we go through these growth ultrasounds and they create some fear. I love that. I love it so stinking much. That's so amazing. Congratulations.Noel: Thank you. Thank you. It was amazing.Meagan: Are there any other tips that you would suggest in you finding a provider or dealing with PROM and not getting frustrated? I think it said one of the best tips that you would give to someone was making sure your provider and the providers they work with are not just VBAC-friendly, but they're really supportive. Do you have any tips to that?Noel: Yeah. That is, again, what I always tell my friends because if your team doesn't trust that you can do this, that's going to really set you up for failure. I just know so many people who are like, "Oh yeah, I asked my doctor if I could have a VBAC after my C-section and they said, "Sure, we'll just see how this will go, and my heart drops." I'm like, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Actually, that's a red flag.Noel: It's a huge red flag. It's a huge red flag. Yeah. I know me who can be a warrior. It was really important to me that everyone who would be around me was supportive because if I had one person come in there and try to poke my bubble, it could start getting in my head and that I don't need that. So, yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Not even just your providers, but your team and your atmosphere around you. I mean, sometimes in that end of pregnancy when we're being told, "Oh, you why haven't had a baby yet?" or "Your baby's gonna get too big," especially if they were ever given a diagnosis of CPD where their pelvis is too small or anything like that, the things that people say can really get into our mind, so we have to protect that bubble and not let anyone try and poke it and pop it because you deserve to feel safe, love, supported, heard in that bubble.Noel: I think listening to the podcast. I listened to this podcast every single day while I would walk with my firstborn. That helped give me the security. I knew, okay, this other mom had this story that's similar to mine. I can do this. If she could do this, I could do this. So it didn't matter whenever I had people come in who had no idea what a VBAC was try to talk me out of it. You have no idea what you're talking about. I have equipped myself with so many other women's stories. Meagan: You're like, "I actually do."Noel: Yeah, right. I'm Dr. Noel Mason. I know it.Meagan: So yeah, I love that. I am Doc Noel. Another thing that I pulled out from your story was you reaching 10 centimeters and having that feeling and not even maybe realizing how badly you needed to get to that point or hear those words. They're just milestone markers. I was in that too. I needed to get past 3 centimeters because I was told that my body couldn't. Once I was past 3 centimeters, it was like, okay. Okay. Even though I knew in my mind I could dilate past three centimeters, I knew I could. There was still this weird hang up, so once I heard that number past 3 centimeters, I can't explain to you this utter relief and aha moment of like, okay. It gave me this surge of power and strength to hear these words. I think it's really important while we're preparing for our VBAC to process our past births and realize what might be triggering and what might be milestone markers that help encourage you and communicate that with your team. Let them know, "You guys, I have never made it past 9 centimeters. I hung out there forever. I was told I needed an emergency C-section. The number 10 is going to be a big deal for me. I need you guys to help me with that," or whatever it may be. Or, "I really don't want this to happen. Can you help me avoid this?" I think communicating with our team comes with preparing for a VBAC, but also processing things mentally and understanding those big moments that you need is okay to be like, "Yeah. That actually was a big deal for me. This is a big deal for me." My water breaking was a trigger for me. But then to hear that my body could get past 3 centimeters on its own was a huge deal. So I just love that you were like, "I felt that," because I could just really remember back when I felt that moment, of like, yes, yes, I can.Noel: I can do this.Meagan: I can do this. And Women of Strength, as you're listening, I want you to know you can do this. Noel and I are two of thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds on this podcast who have come before you who have done it. It is possible, but you do have to set yourself up in all the right ways. We know even then, sometimes you can do everything right and still not have the outcome that you want, but our goal here at The VBAC Link is to help you have a better experience. So getting that information, building your team, finding that supportive provider, all of that, and then also knowing your options if a Cesarean is needed, I just think it's so important to know that you deserve it. You can do it. You are worth it. You are worth it. And like Noel mentioned in the beginning, I didn't hire a doula because of costs. I just thought it could be by myself, and then she had this massive Cesarean bill. Sometimes these doulas or education courses or whatever, going to PTs and chiropractors may seem like it's too much financially or you can't do it, but in the end, it really pays off. I'll tell you, there's not a single day in my life that I look back and be like, I can't believe that I went to this two chiropractors and paid this much for that, paid for my doulas, paid for an out-of-hospital birth. I never even questioned that. That money was well spent. Even if I didn't have a VBAC and had to transfer and have a Cesarean, it still would have been well spent because I had a better experience. I felt empowered. I'm also going to plug Be Her Village. I'm sure you guys have heard me talking about it before. I love that company. If you are in that situation where you don't feel like you can financially do it, go register for Be Her Village. You guys, it's a registry for doulas and postpartum and PT and chiropractor and all these things. It's a place where you can go because I'm sure Noel will say it's worth it.Noel: Definitely. Yes, definitely.Meagan: Yeah. And hire a doula early on. I think having a doula early on in your pregnancy who can literally walk through this journey with you is so powerful. It might not be something where you talk to her every day. It might not be like that, but having that person in your corner, I love that you were able to go outside and call and be like, "This is a situation. Let's walk through it," and have that sounding ear and extra opinion and in the end supporting you in whatever you decided, and you decided together that you wanted to do that.I think it's so, so powerful. So as a reminder also, we have a whole registry of VBAC doulas. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula. They are literally trained in VBAC and know the options and want to help you navigate that. Any other tips that you have?Noel: No, but thinking of the doula thing, again, at eight weeks, that is so important. I know a lot of people are like, "I don't even know if this baby is viable yet." I don't even think I had had my first--Meagan: Ultrasound?Noel: Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. But if it weren't for interviewing those doulas, I probably would have stuck with that original provider that I had in mind and gone the whole pregnancy with them. Because if they would have told me to switch at 20-something weeks and my provider was fine and supportive, there would have been no reason to switch. I'm so glad I talked to them when I did.Meagan: Yes. Oh, that is such a powerful thing to remind people of because doulas know the area. Doulas work with these providers all the time. It's outside of our scope to be like, "This provider is garbage. Don't go," or tell you what to do exactly. But at the same time, and maybe it's not really outside of our scope to say that. Maybe it's not really. It's maybe just not appropriate to be like, "This is garbage." But at the same time, we can be like, "Hey, this is what I've seen. I would encourage you to check these people out also. Hey, here are some questions to ask for your provider."Noel: Yes.Meagan: I love that. The doulas know the providers in the area, and they can help guide you through what really is that supportive provider.Noel: Yeah. And supportive hospital or birth center, whatever. They know. They've been there. They have been to more than we have. Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. There is a hospital here in Utah that anytime someone wants to VBAC, at first, for a long time, I was like, "Okay, you know, just do whatever feels best," until I saw too much and now I was like, "Listen, I'm gonna be straight with you, and you don't even have to hire me if you don't like my honesty. But if you want a VBAC, you're going to the wrong place."Noel: That's powerful.Meagan: I have said that. You're going to the wrong place. Trust these people. They know. They've seen it. They're there. They're really there.Noel: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. Okay, well thank you so much again for your time today and your stories and congratulations on your cute, chunky baby.Noel: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this powerful episode, we hear the story of Alice, who shares her brave journey through two contrasting pregnancies and the impact of intimate partner violence on her mental health. Co-host Sarah joins as one of our VBAC Link certified doulas to discuss the importance of mental health awareness, especially during pregnancy and postpartum. This episode dives into the significance of having a strong support system and the need for open conversations about postpartum mood disorders and trauma-informed care. Alice is a beautiful example of resilience, healing, and the strength that women possess.National Domestic Violence HotlineNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength. Hello. How are you doing? I hope you are having an amazing week. We have another story coming your way today, and we actually have a co-host today, my friend Sarah. Hello, Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Meagan: Thank you so much for being here today.Sarah: Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.Meagan: I love having our VBAC Link doulas on the podcast here and there. It's fun to not only share you with the world and let people know who you are and where you are, but really just to hear from you guys and hear your educational pieces and just have you guys in the story and giving your input, and I just love it. So thank you so much for being here.Sarah: Absolutely.Meagan: Guys, today, like I said, we have an HBAC coming your way. But I did want to let you know that today's episode may have mention of partner abuse and suicide. I really, really, really think it is so important to really not mask stories and share the rawness of people's stories because I think the rawness and the real story is what makes us who we are today and really creates the story to be true. I just wanted to give you guys a heads-up. But I'm going to turn the time over to Sarah. She is in replace of our review today doing an educational piece and actually talking about mental health.Sarah: Yeah. Hi. So again, I'm super excited to be here. I'm Sarah Marie Bilder. I'm located in the upstate South Carolina area and I do birth and postpartum doula work. I really just wanted to cover the topic of mental health because in the story that we're gonna hear today, it's pretty relevant and it's one of those things that aren't often talked about. I don't wanna say that that's not talked about because when we say that it kind of, I feel, diminishes the people that are talking about it. It's important to really highlight when we are talking about it. But a lot of the times when we're preparing for pregnancy, we're focused on the physical aspects or maybe mindfulness or something along those lines, but we don't really dig deep into postpartum mood disorders or when there are mood disorders that are still occurring in pregnancy or even that might exist before we're pregnant that will still continue throughout pregnancy. So it's really important to make sure that we're having these conversations and that we're being open and honest with the people around us. Maybe if you aren't in therapy or have somebody sort of set up along those lines, you still have a close friend or a support person that you can be sharing this information with or really opening up about the feelings that you're having because they are very real feelings, and even into postpartum, it goes more than just the baby blues. There are a lot of different things that can be occurring and happening that it's really important to continue to have those support people. So as a doula, this is something that I make sure my clients are aware of and open to, and I try to be as much of a support person as possible, but knowing when professionals need to step in and when situations need to be handled I think is really key. So making sure that you have people to talk to, making sure when you listen to these stories that you are considering different situations and different aspects and that we're talking to our mom friends too. If you're not the one currently going through it, if you're hearing somebody else going through different situations, we're continuing to stay open and stay together and stay supportive.Meagan: Yes, I love that. Thank you so much for that message. I also want to add through to it that after we have our babies, we are given a six-week follow-up. You do not have to wait six weeks to talk to your provider. If you are feeling these feelings, you do not have to wait until then. You one, can get in sooner. But two, there are other resources, and we will make sure to have those resources shared at the end of this episode and in our show notes. So if you or anyone that you know and love are experiencing these things, please know that there is more help. Okay, Alice and Sarah, thank you so much again for being here today. I want to turn the time over to you, Ms. Alice.Alice: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and share my story.Meagan: Me too.Alice: So I have had two pregnancies, two births, and they were both very, very different. My first pregnancy, when I think about when I found out I was pregnant with my first, it was the lowest point of my life. I was nine months into being married to my abuser and had really lost my entire sense of self. I was at this point where I just didn't understand how I had gotten there. I didn't understand how I had married him. I found myself hospitalized from a suicide attempt. I also had no social support. I had no family in the area. I had no job. My husband was an attorney, and I relied on his friends and his family for emotional support. I was hospitalized and felt very lost. About a week into my hospitalization, the staff, who were constantly running tests and blood draws, pulled me out of a group where I was learning how to deeply breathe, and to my shock, told me I was pregnant. I had no idea. It was just a very out-of-body experience being hospitalized for mental illness. Some people can find it really helpful in healing, and it can also be a trauma in itself, and it was that for me. So to be in this setting where I had no freedom, and then these people were telling me what was inside of my body. It was-- I couldn't process it. I was very disconnected to my pregnancy at first. The next five days of being hospitalized, I was presented with a lot of information about pregnancy and intimate partner violence. It's information that I think is really important for providers to know, but it was presented to me as a new pregnant person in an abusive relationship in a way that felt really coercive and fear-mongering. They told me that the leading cause of death in the United States for pregnant women was intimate partner homicide. Meagan: Okay. Alice: Yeah. I remember one provider telling me, "Your options are to terminate the pregnancy or to leave him now. It's our professional opinion that if you stay in this relationship while pregnant, it's very likely that he will kill you before you give birth." Meagan: Gosh. Alice: I remember feeling so shocked and afraid. I knew I wanted to be a mom. I think the decision to continue a pregnancy or not when you're faced with, it's always a difficult decision. It was for me because I was afraid, and I knew I wanted to be a mom. I also knew that I couldn't leave yet. The leaving is really complicated, and it's not a direct line to safety. I remember feeling when they were talking to me about leaving, like, "Well, you could go here or you could call this person," thinking like, don't you think I've already thought of this? Don't you think I've thought of every way to keep myself safe? Now I was pregnant, and I wanted the assumption that I was making decisions that were best for me and my baby. My pregnancy was difficult. I had hyperemesis and I had this pregnancy rash that was really itchy my whole pregnancy. They kept testing my bile levels, and they were all normal and never knew what was going on. I have scars on my body from scratching. I'm pretty sure now that it was just stress and breaking out in hives throughout my pregnancy. I had broken ribs in my third trimester. When I think about that pregnancy, I remember it being a time of suffering and fear. I feel sad for myself when I think of myself during that time experiencing pregnancy like that. At the same time, I had an incredible midwifery team based out of a hospital. I can't say enough about how supportive and trauma-informed they were. They never pressured me to leave. They asked questions like, "What can we do to help? How can we make you safer?" They trusted that I was doing everything I could and that I knew how to keep myself safe and how to keep my baby safe. I was living with my in-laws when I went into labor with my first. I had moved in and out of our home depending on how safe it was. I didn't have anywhere to go other than his parents'. I was living with them and my waters had been leaking for a few days and I knew. I was like, I know I'm not peeing this much all the time. I knew that my waters were leaking, but I didn't want to go to the hospital yet because I hadn't started contracting, and I knew they would induce. I started having contractions at midnight. I went in about 24 hours later. It was really slow. I tried everything I could to get things moving, but it just wouldn't speed up. I ended up being induced. I don't necessarily regret the decision to be induced. It did lead to a C-section, but when I went into the hospital, I didn't know what home I would go to. I wanted to be there. I remember thinking, I want to stay here. If that means I have to get induced, that means I get induced. But I felt much safer being in a hospital at that point. They started the induction process. I had a doula come, and I also had my therapist come. She was with me through my entire labor at the hospital and birth for-- she was there maybe 45 hours. We had made a contract and it's pretty innovative to have my therapist there as a support person at my birth. I think it's an induction story that we all know my body wasn't ready. I was on Pitocin for a very long time. Baby's heart rate started decelerating, not tolerating labor, and made the decision to have a Cesarean. It wasn't the birth that I wanted, but it was the safety that I wanted. I had support there. They made sure to tell me specific things that were in my birth plan that were triggers for me. When I was laid on the table for the C-section, someone got very close to my ear and said, "No one's tying you down. I know your arms are out. It might feel like that, but know you are not restrained." At one point, the anesthesiologist started petting my head because he was sitting by my head. The obstetrician who was just there to do my C-section, wasn't there for very long. She had read my birth plan and said to the male anesthesiologist, "She doesn't like her head to be touched." He stopped. I felt very seen. I did skin-to-skin in the delivery room. My therapist was in the operating room with me. It wasn't a terrible Cesarean experience. So postpartum was pretty hard. When I left the hospital, I was living alone with my baby. My in-laws agreed to encourage my husband to live with them so that we could be safe from him during the postpartum time. But living alone after a C-section with no family or friends and no doula was very, very difficult. My husband had substance-use disorder, and he took my pain medication when I got home. I just remember being in a lot of pain. I also was in this haze of falling in love with my baby. It still shocks me that I did not experience postpartum depression with my first. I was depressed through my pregnancy, and I also think I was in such a survival mode during the first year of my first baby's life that I didn't have any space to process or space to grieve. I was surviving. One year after giving birth to my first, I did file for divorce to get a restraining order and safely flee with my child, but it was a very long, difficult road.Meagan: If you are someone who is experiencing domestic violence during pregnancy, postpartum or just in general, there is help. You can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233.Alice: So that was my first birth experience. Fast forward to four years later, I've memorialized the day that I found out that I was pregnant with my first because it was such the lowest point of my life. I think of it as this time where I was ready for my life to end. I'm gonna cry, but instead my life doubled and it led to this beautiful little human who I get to be a mom to and really changed the trajectory of my entire life, so I call it my life day. Four years later, on my life day, I was in a loving relationship with the most gentle man. I still am in that relationship. I felt like things were a little wonky with my body. I woke up and took a pregnancy test and saw on the exact same day that the hospital told me that I was pregnant, four years later, I had a positive pregnancy test. I was in a home that I owned, a home that was safe and filled with love and a relationship that was safe and loving. It was just so different. I went and I laid in bed with my then 3-year-old and said, "We're gonna be just fine." And I knew that we were going to be. My second pregnancy was also different. It was very healing. I experienced a lot of sadness again because I think I had space to grieve the first time. It also happened because I got pregnant right around the same time. It was like this weird re-do of my first one now with a loving partner and safety and getting to be pregnant. I think about what I wanted for my body and how to stay healthy. I didn't take a single vitamin during my first pregnancy. I was just focused on, how do I stay safe today? I can't even count all the supplements I was on this time. I knew pretty soon that I wanted a home birth. I feel like I was pretty educated on VBAC. I had been listening to The VBAC Link since I was pregnant with my first. I don't know why because I hadn't had a C-section yet, but I had loved the podcast and I knew the rates of repeat Cesareans. I also work in labor and delivery units and I know that they're very risk-averse. I felt like it was the safest option to birth at home. I also felt the weight of how precious it was to have a safe home that I could birth in. It was very meaningful for me to give birth in a space that was mine and was safe. My partner, who knew nothing about home birth, I broached the subject with him early in pregnancy was like, "I want to let you know. I don't know what you think about this, but I want to have a home birth." And he was just like, "Great." I was pretty surprised that he was so on board, but he trusted me, and he trusted me the whole way through. I did not have hyperemesis the second time. I didn't have the rash problem. I didn't have the broken ribs. I did have a lot of pain from pubic symphysis. Yeah, the second half of my pregnancy was like very difficult to even walk. I broke my pelvis in my teenage years and was a little unsure of how that healed. I broke it in two places. I have had this fear of, what if there's a bunch of scar tissue around a bone and baby's head couldn't get through? So I had that fear as well going into my home birth. My midwife was very skilled and very kind. It was a different experience of prenatal care. I also really loved my hospital prenatal care. I think given that I was in a high-risk situation, I loved my hospital prenatal care. It was exactly what I needed. And in my second birth, my home birth midwife was exactly what I needed. In my second birth, I went over my due date by 11 days which was such a mind game. I was so over it. I was just this crazy person who was doing everything that I could to get this baby out of me, but also was like, "No, I wanna be holistic. I don't to be induced. I'm not gonna--," so there were two parts of myself that were battling each other. But I, finally went into labor. My mother was here as well. My family lives far away, but my mother came to support me this time. It was just my mom and my partner and my three-year-old. I labored at home. I had my music. It was just a lovely experience of laboring and of joining in this experience that so many women have had of pain and beauty and endurance and strength. I felt so connected to the world and to women and to my mom. My midwife came. I started laboring at 7:00 PM. At 2:00 PM the next day, my midwife came. I labored in the tub. I had a blow-up birthing pool. I felt like labor was pretty straightforward until the last five hours that I was fully dilated, but he just wasn't descending. The midwife checked me and said that his head was stuck on my pubic bone. He was stuck there for five hours. It was a lot of pushing, but I wasn't really pushing the right way.It felt like contractions that just weren't producing anything. It wasn't opening anything. It wasn't moving him down. It was just nothing. I started to get really discouraged. We joke a lot about how belligerent I was towards the end. Right before I gave birth, I got very bossy and I decided it wasn't go going to happen. Like, "He's not going to descend. I'm over this. Call 911. Tell them to bring drugs. I need them here now." My midwife was like, "That's not how it works." I was like "No, call the police. Tell them to bring narcotics. I need to stop feeling this." I was being ridiculous. My midwife was encouraging me saying, "He is coming down. I know you're not feeling it, but I feel his head and it's right there. I think you're gonna have a car baby if we get in the car. and I don't want that to happen." I'm not a rude person, but I guess in labor, I am. But I stuck my finger in my vagina, and I was like, "Well, I don't feel him." They were loading up to go to the hospital because I was so insistent that this was not happening. I was standing in the living room and I said, "Wait." My partner was like, "She said wait." I could feel him coming down. It was the first time I really felt his head coming through my birth canal. It was such a different feeling. In 30 minutes, I pushed him out standing in our living room. It was just beautiful and lovely, and he was on my chest. My 3-year-old was there. Baby was on my chest. I was lying on my partner's chest. Nothing else mattered in that moment. Yeah. It was a lovely, beautiful, healing experience to come full-circle. I also gave birth on the four-year anniversary of filing for divorce and getting a restraining order from my abuser. It's like all of these things lined up just to give me this healing experience of new life.Meagan: Yeah. Seriously, these milestones that you're able to overcome from the past and replace with joy and beauty and excitement and healing. Oh, I have chills through the whole episode. How about you, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah. There's just so many parts of your story that are so unique and so fitting. There's so much strength in it, and there's so much emotion in listening and feeling all of the things that obviously you were going through. And some were external, but a lot were very internal. Thank you for sharing your story. The ability to be able to share your story takes so much strength in itself. Yeah.Meagan: We could see that and could see it in your eyes. You had my eyes welling up a few times. I was just feeling all the emotion as you were sharing and all the heartache in the beginning that you were sharing. And I loved how you were like, "I was in this. I was going through this really terrible, scary experience," but you were able to stay in this haze of bonding and you two together, you two thriving and surviving in this really unfortunate circumstance, but I am so glad that you were able to have that and grow and then now have this safe, loving home, and two cute babes.Alice: Yeah, they are cute.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And although your story's so unique, it's also in very many of our VBAC stories. We have that traumatic experience and then it leads to that very healing experience. I think it's just one of those things. You had mentioned having that space to process and getting out of that survival mode too. I think that's really amazing to honor that and mention that because sometimes we are just in that survival mode, and we don't allow ourself or we don't have the ability to give ourselves that time to really process what is occurring and what is happening. And a lot of the time we just need to do that, and we need to allow ourselves the time to do some fear-clearing and release a lot of that anxiety and other fears that are happening and going on.Meagan: Also on the end of the story, when you were talking about five hours where baby was just kind of hanging out there and you were stuck there pushing, but not really pushing, but in this weird, funky spot in labor, we have seen this where people are pushing and they're like, "Your baby's not descending." We are actually given a diagnosis of failure to descend as a reason for Cesarean, but then simply standing up and moving-- and I'm sure you were moving and grooving along the way, but it just sometimes is one specific motion. It might have been the quickness of you standing up like, "Okay, I'm going. We're going to do this," that did it. We don't know.I love seeing too that you were saying, "I had a broken pelvis in the past. I don't really know how that healed." In a lot of ways, a lot of providers would be like, "You had a broken pelvis. You don't have a proven pelvis. I don't know. I don't think I'm comfortable with this." But then here you did it, right? But that movement and I don't know, I just feel like there's so much power within our bodies that it's just incredible, and I love seeing that. And then your partner was like, "Wait, hold on. Don't go anywhere. I think we're staying." I love that that is exactly how it unfolded and that your other baby was able to be there with you, and just so many amazing things about your story. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and just being here with us.Alice: Thank you. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I am not a TOLAC patient. I am a VBAC!”Julie sits down with Colleen, a mother from Long Island, New York, who shares her journey towards achieving a successful VBAC despite facing challenges such as gestational diabetes. Colleen recounts her traumatic first birth experience and the uphill battle she faced with her second pregnancy. She was bombarded with messages that her baby would suffer permanent nerve damage from shoulder dystocia, but her intuition told her otherwise. Though her baby's weight was predicted to be off the charts, Colleen's daughter was born weighing just 7 pounds, 15 ounces. This episode emphasizes the importance of understanding your options, having a supportive team, and trusting your instincts during birth. The VBAC Link Blog: The Facts About Shoulder DystociaEvidence Based Birth® - The Evidence on Big BabiesEvidence Based Birth® - The Evidence on Induction for Big BabiesCoterie Diaper ProductsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details ​​Julie: All right. Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Julie Francom here with you today. I am super excited that we have with us Colleen here today. Colleen is going to share her story about her VBAC with gestational diabetes and the struggle that she had working towards her VBAC. Now I am really excited to introduce Colleen to you. She is from Long Island, New York. I do not have a Review of the Week. I forgot to pull that up, so we are going to just do a little fun fact about birth preparation instead of a review because I forgot to look at the review. So sorry, Meagan. I think probably the best thing that you can do to prepare for any type of birth is to find out what all of your options are. I feel like that's like such a good tip for first-time moms or going in for a VBAC or even if you want to schedule a repeat C-section or even an initial C-section. I think that one of the biggest disservices we can do to ourselves is not knowing the options that are available to us and not standing up and speaking up for ourselves when the things that we want are not what is done, normally or typically in whatever setting we're choosing to birth at. I love the phrase "if you don't know your options, you don't have any". I think that that is true. And I think that there's never a circumstance where we can be too prepared going into any type of birth experience. So if you're listening, I know that you're already on top of that because you want to get educated and inspired about either VBAC or what your options are for birthing after a C-section. So stick in there. We have a VBAC prep course for parents and for doulas to learn more about VBAC as well. You can find that on our website, thevbaclink.com.All right, let's go ahead and get into it. I would love to introduce you to Colleen. She is a mom of two. She's a teacher living in Long Island, New York. Her first birth and postpartum experiences were incredibly traumatic. She says, "The moment that they wheeled me to the OR for my C-section, I knew I wanted a VBAC. After being diagnosed with gestational diabetes in my second trimester, I faced an uphill battle to achieving my VBAC." And finally, after delivering her daughter, it was the most healing experience she could have ever imagined. We're going to talk a little bit more about those struggles and gestational diabetes and maybe a bait-and-switch, it sounds like, from her new provider at the end of the episode. So hang in there. I'm excited to hear from Colleen. Colleen, are you there?Colleen: Hi.Julie: Hi. All right, you go ahead and get started, and I am super excited to hear your story.Colleen: All right. I guess I'll start with my C-section because that's, I guess, where every VBAC starts. So my pregnancy with my son was textbook perfect. Everything that you want to go right did go right, so I naively expected my birth to follow that same pattern. Hindsight is 20/20. I know I shouldn't have, especially since I've been listening to different birth podcasts for a while, and I know that's really not how it goes, but I guess as a first-time mom, I didn't think about that stuff. So when I went into labor with him, I think I was 38 weeks and 5 days, just shy of 39 weeks. It was an incredibly long labor. I was in labor with him for 40 hours. We stayed home that first day, and then when things started to progress the next day, we headed to the hospital. When I got there, they checked me and did all of the administrative type of things, and I was already 4 centimeters dilated, so they kept me. The first thing that they asked was about an epidural. I knew that I had wanted one, but I didn't know when in my labor I had wanted one. I just heard from a bunch of different people that sometimes anesthesia can take a very long time to get there. So I requested it immediately, not anticipating them to show up five minutes later. I think my husband walked out of the room to fill out another piece of paperwork when he came back there. The whole anesthesia team was in there. I got it at about 4 centimeters dilated, and then just expected for things to go as birth is "supposed" to go. I ended up dilating very, very quickly. Within 10 minutes, I was 8 centimeters dilated. But with that, because it was such a rapid jump, my son's heart rate wasn't able to keep up with it. So there were a ton of people in the room in a matter of seconds. They ended up giving me shots in my thighs to slow my labor. I'm not sure what the medication was. They just did it, and then that was that. And then I stayed in the bed for about 10 hours. I'd asked my nurse to come in and help me move a little bit, and she told me no. She told me because I had an epidural, I could not move. But things were taking a very long time. So at one point, she came in. She's like, "I'll just give you a peanut ball." But at that point, I was still on my back. They had me laboring on my back. She told me to just shift my legs over, and she draped them over the peanut ball, and then left again. And then later on, I started feeling pressure. They came in and they were like, "Okay, yeah, we can do some practice pushes," or, no, let me backtrack. I'm sorry. It took a while, so they ended up pushing Pitocin before I started feeling the pressure, and then a little bit after that, that's when that happened. So they came in and they were like, "Okay, we can do some practice pushes." And I think they let me do two. During those pushes, my son's heart rate dropped dramatically. At that point, it was me, my husband, the hospital OB, not even my OB, just the staff one, and a nurse in the room. But when his heart rate dropped, I think there were 30 people in the room. So at that point, they flipped me over on all fours and just ran out of the room with me. They didn't tell me what was going on. They didn't tell my husband what was going on, so he was in the corner panicking. They were really shoving him back into the corner. I remember being so, so terrified of what was going on just because I didn't know what was happening. All I knew was they were rushing me to the OR. This was 2022. So it was the end of COVID. I remember crying so hard that my mask was just absolutely disgusting. When I got into the OR, there was still no information on what was happening, and they just pushed the full dose of the epidural or spinal, whatever it was, for the C-section. My OB was in the OR at that point. So the practice I was with was so large that even though I had met with a different OB every single appointment, I'd never met this one. She ended up being absolutely phenomenal, but it was very intimidating not meeting the person who was delivering my baby ahead of time. So they have me in the OR, and she says, "Okay, if you are okay with it, we can try to deliver him vaginally with a vacuum." I agreed to that because the last thing I wanted was a C-section. The idea of major surgeries really freaks me out. I definitely didn't want that if I could avoid it. With the vacuum, they let me push three times to try to get him out. Obviously, that did not work. So I ended up having a C-section. The first thing that my OB had said to me after I delivered was that I was a perfect candidate for a VBAC. She said the incision was low. Everything went beautifully. She told me that the C-section was not my fault, which I didn't realize how supportive that was in the moment because I was already beating myself up from it. So then we move into recovery and the mother/baby unit, and everything seemed to be going okay. And then the day that I was supposed to be discharged, I started having, like, I wouldn't even call it a headache because I get migraines so a headache to me is different than to other people, I guess. But I couldn't move. I couldn't walk. When I would stand up, I felt like I was going to fall over. So they added a couple of extra days to my stay, and I ended up having a spinal fluid leak, but the anesthesia team didn't want to say it was that. They were saying it was everything other than that. They said I pulled a muscle when I was pushing. You name it, and they said it was that. It was everything other than a spinal fluid leak. I ended up having some-- I don't even know what kind of procedure it was. It was like a COVID test on steroids. They put long swabs up my nose and essentially numbed my sinus cavity and sent me home because it helped a little bit. And then five days postpartum, I had to go back to my OB because my liver numbers were elevated. She took one look at me and she said, "You have a spinal fluid leak, and you need to go back for a blood patch." Five days postpartum, I was away from my son for literally the entire day. The hospital did not offer me a pump or anything like that. It was just very scary and traumatic, and it set the tone for my whole postpartum experience. Looking back on it now, I describe it as like being in a black hole in comparison to where I am now. So after that whole experience, my husband and I knew that we wanted more kids, but we also knew we needed to change some things because I didn't want to end up with another C-section, and he was very on board with whatever my birth wishes were because he wanted me to have a very different experience than I did the first time around. So then when I was pregnant with my daughter, at the beginning, they were fine, but also the pregnancy was very, very different. While my son was textbook perfect, this one felt like what could go wrong was going wrong.  I know there could have been worse things, but in the moment, it felt very big. I ended up having a subchorionic hematoma. The early bleeding was very, very scary, and my OB still wouldn't see me even though I'd been bleeding for a while. Everything ended up being fine with that. I stayed with the same practice at that point. I was going through everything. Later on in my pregnancy, I obviously did the glucose test and ended up with gestational diabetes. That was in the back of my mind. But then as I was going forward with it, there was very little support or information about gestational diabetes. I got a phone call on a Friday that said, "You have this, and here's a number for you to call, and good luck". The first meeting I had with a diabetes educator, I was under the assumption would be a one-on-one meeting. I didn't realize until 10 minutes before the meeting that it was a group meeting. In bold, capitalized, underlined lettering, it said, "You cannot talk about anything personal because of HIPAA." I had so many questions that I knew were specific to me, and I couldn't ask them. We were sitting in this meeting, and the educator is just going through a PowerPoint of doom and gloom situations of what could happen if gestational diabetes isn't controlled. Then she emailed us all a PDF with like a specific carb goal for the day or whatever it was, and then gave us all prescriptions for the glucose monitors and all of that stuff, but no direction or anything, and was kind of just like, "Okay, well let's make a follow-up appointment for individuals with you guys." And then that was that. I still had no idea what was going on. I picked up the prescription and was just like panicked the whole time. I didn't know what I could eat, what was safe and what wasn't. And then on top of all of that, I felt like I did something wrong and there was just a lot of guilt and heavy feelings surrounding it. When I started to try to research things for gestational diabetes, there was very, very little that I could find. It just felt almost like gestational diabetes wasn't something that we can talk about. It's just something that happens and you've got to deal with it. So eventually I figured out what worked for me and I realized that it was very, very different from that blanket carb gold sheet that they had given us. Their goals were like 60 grams of carbs or something like that for certain meals, and my body just couldn't handle that. My goal was to try to avoid medication if I could because I knew that could impact my chances of having a VBAC because of different providers' thoughts about it. So after I got diagnosed with gestational diabetes and started navigating all of that, I was still talking with my provider about a VBAC and how that was the goal, that was the plan, and I didn't want anything else. I started finding that some OBs okay with it while others weren't. They wouldn't say that they weren't okay with it. I would go back and look over my notes, and there would be a line that said we talked about a C-section. I'm like, no, we didn't. What are you saying? A C-section never came up. I don't know what you're saying. I got a call out of nowhere one day to schedule a C-section. I'm like, "I have no idea what's going on here, and that's not what I want. That's not what I want to do, so I'm not doing it." At my next appointment, the doctor I had met with was saying like, "Oh, since you had a C-section before, we just schedule one just in case. It's what we do with all previous C-section patients." So at that point, I was like, okay, whatever, I'll schedule it with them, but I'm also going to start the process of switching because I wasn't liking how it was very inconsistent.I thought I wanted a smaller practice. I ended up switching to one that my sister-in-law used. At first, everything was fine. I met with two of the three doctors who could potentially be delivering my baby. One of them was very supportive right off the bat. "Yeah, I'm looking at all of your notes, you seem like a great candidate as long as gestational diabetes stays under control, then there's no problem. You can have a VBAC." And then the other provider had a completely different view on it. My first appointment with her, when we were going through everything, she was kind of just like, "Well, you have gestational diabetes, so you should really think about how important a VBAC is for you, and you might need to switch practices." That really caught me off guard. I had never left an OB appointment feeling that upset. I remember crying in my car for a half an hour before I could even pull out of the parking lot because I was just so overwhelmed and upset and had just so many different feelings that I couldn't put my finger on. At this point, I had hired a doula. I was talking to her before I left, and she was really helpful in calming me down. As my pregnancy went on, that was really the role that she ended up playing before I gave birth was really just keeping me and reminding me what I wanted because as things went on, there were the growth scans and all of the other good things that they do during pregnancy. The first growth skin I had, she was measuring big. And they're like, "Oh, she's in the 80th percentile. As long as she stays here, it's fine, but if she gets to be any part of her gets to be over 90%, then you have to have a C-section. You will have to deliver at 39 weeks and there is no shot of anything else."Julie: Oh my gosh, that's overwhelming.Colleen: Yeah, it was a lot thrown at me and this is where the uphill battle started because every scan that they did after that, she was measuring big. Toward the end, she was over the 90th percentile. And in the last month of my pregnancy, I had the weekly non-stress tests and scans, measuring my fluid and all of that stuff. But every single week was a conversation about the risks of a VBAC. They really, really, really were pushing a C-section, but they didn't talk about any risks of a repeat C-section which I find interesting now. But something else that I thought was unkind was the way that they were explaining their risks of a VBAC. They really were focusing on shoulder dystocia. So when my mom had me, I was a very big baby and I actually did have shoulder dystocia. I am physically handicapped from it. So them hammering on the risks of shoulder dystocia as if I didn't know and I was unaware of what could happen was really offensive. One of the providers actually at one point had said that my birth injury wasn't that bad. I was so caught off guard by that comment that I didn't even know what to say.Julie: Wow. Can I ask what it is? Do you mind sharing? You don't have to share.Colleen: No, that's fine. I have left herbs palsy. So it's like a nerve damage essentially. The way that they had to get me out of my mom without using forceps or anything like that, they just put too much pressure on one side and ruined the way that the nerve endings are connected. Julie: Oh.Colleen: Yeah. So when I was born, the doctor told my mom I wouldn't have any use of my left arm. My mom had me in physical therapy from the time I was 6 weeks old until I was 12 years old. Because of that extensive physical therapy, I do have a really decent range of motion in my left arm. It's one of those things where I think about it and I'm like, if I had lost the use of it at some point, I think I'd be more upset. It's annoying, but it's my normal. It's my everyday, and it really doesn't impact my everyday lifestyle, I guess.  I'm able to take care of my baby. One of the comments that the provider made was actually along the lines of like, "Oh, well, yours is fine. You can actually do things. But what if your baby has shoulder dystocia and your baby can't use their arm at all?" They kept bringing up the risks of stillbirth with it, and it was just very scary. Especially because I personally know what can happen with shoulder dystocia. I guess going through it, I had like this deep, deep sense that that was not something that I was going to experience. I don't know what that feeling was, but I knew in my bones that it wasn't happening. But every week, they were talking about the risk of shoulder dystocia and really expanding on how serious it could be. And my last appointment before I gave birth-- so that appointment was on a Wednesday and I had my daughter on Friday. So that Wednesday appointment, my doctor is going through everything again with the risks of shoulder dystocia. They had made me schedule a just-in-case C-section for the day after my due date. They were really trying to get me to switch it to some time in 39 weeks. Every week they were like, "Oh, just give us a call if you change your mind." I was not changing my mind at any point. So the last appointment, right before I was going to leave the room, my doctor was like, "What was your last growth scan?" And then he looked it up, he's like, "Oh, it's been a month. Let's have another growth scan today."Julie: Oh no. Colleen: Two days before I gave birth.And think you back. I'm like, who does that? There's no room for anything in there so obviously, the baby's gonna look huge. I go in. They do the scan. My fluids are fine. But her belly was what was constantly measuring huge which is why they were so insistent that she was going to have shoulder dystocia. The way that this practice is run, they do the scans after you meet with the doctor. Typically, you don't even talk about the scan until the following week which I found very strange. They did this scan. I was like, "I'm not even going to talk about it with my doctor, so whatever, you do what you want." But he had forgotten to write me a doctor's note, and when I asked about it at the front, they had to call him forward. It was at the same time that the ultrasound tech was logging all of the measurements, so he was asking her about it. They ended up having me go back into the office. And in that moment, I knew it was not going to be a good meeting at all. They're going over it, and the ultrasound tech is talking about the way that the measurements work. They do the diameter of the belly and it'll spit out whatever week gestation that matches. She was essentially like, "This baby's belly is off the charts. I can't even get a gestational week because it's so big." Yeah. So I'm standing there like, this is not going to go how I want it to. So my doctor pulls me into a different exam room, and we're talking about what the ultrasound tech had said. And again, shoulder dystocia. Before that appointment, I had gone in and I was like, "I don't even know if I want a cervical check. I know that they really mean very, very little." So before I had the cervical check, I asked, "If I'm dilated at all, instead of jumping right to the C-section that we have scheduled, can I come in that day and can we try for a Foley induction?" And he was like, "Yeah, I'm okay with that." So then he sees the results of the growth scan and backtracked and was like, "No, I'm not comfortable with that. If you walk in in active labor on your due date, we are going to send you right to the OR." It was very devastating. I'd already talked with him about my previous birth and how I was very scared of another C-section. I was scared of an epidural. My plan was to do an unmedicated VBAC because I didn't want to even risk another spinal fluid leak. He brushed all of that off and was like, "Oh, well, it's a planned C-section, so it's going to be very different. The needle they use for a spinal is so much smaller than an epidural, so the risks of that are so much lower." He was not acknowledging anything that I was saying. He was just still pushing, "You need a C-section. You need a C-section. You need a C-section." A week or so before that, he had even told me if I had wanted to go to 41 weeks, that he was going to give me my files and tell me to find another provider because he did not want to be a part of malpractice. At that point, I think I was just so thrown off and confused by everything that I didn't see it as big of a red flag as it actually was. But also when he told me it was too late to switch, no other provider would have taken me at like 37-38 weeks, especially with the gestational diabetes. I went home after that appointment feeling absolutely devastated. It was the pattern of the last month, just completely devastated talking to my doula about it and her reinstalling that confidence in me. That night, I went to sleep and was starting to be like, "All right, I guess I have to start really thinking about, what if this is another C-section?" The following morning I woke up and I guess because the last thing that I had talked about regarding my birth was with my doula and her telling me, "You can do this. I've never seen somebody as confident. You can do this. Your body grew this baby. Your body can birth this baby. You can do this." I had that in my mind when I woke up. And I was, I guess, a little bit extreme in my thinking because I called a midwife group and was going to switch at over 39 weeks pregnant. I'm like, I'm gonna make this work. Some way or another, I'm doing it. I planned on not showing up for the C-section that I had scheduled the following week because when I woke up, I was just like, they cannot cut me open if I don't consent to it. If I walk in in labor, legally, they cannot deny me care. I'm having this baby the way that I want to, and everyone else can just get on board or they can get out. That was Thursday morning, and I had taken off of work for Thursday-Friday because I just couldn't do it. I couldn't teach and give my students the all that they deserved. I was coming home so exhausted. I took that Thursday as my last hurrah with my son. We ended up walking around. I took them to a local farm, and we had a really good day together. The whole day I was like, I'm walking all day, so maybe I'll go into labor. It did not happen. So then the next day, same kind of thing. I had originally intended to go out with my son, but I woke up and I had this overwhelming feeling of, I just can't leave today. I need to stay near my house. I had listened to an episode of The VBAC Link, and I think the woman whose podcast episode it was, it said that either her midwife or her doula told her to go for a two-hour walk. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna go for a very long walk. They can't hurt anything.I ended up walking for an hour. While I was walking, I started having some contractions, but they weren't consistent. I really wasn't convinced it was anything because I'd been having such intense Braxton Hicks contractions for a month or so that it was just like, this can't be it. So we got home, and I was just going about the day with my son. Nothing was going on. I decided to pump a couple times, so I did that, and by the time his bedtime rolled around, I was having fairly consistent contractions, but I still was not convinced. I was like, this is prodromal labor. There's no way this is actual labor. I'm just gonna have to be mad about this for another day. I even texted my doula, "If this isn't actually it, I'm going to go build a hut somewhere and hide there until I give birth," because I was so tired of talking to my doctors and seeing them and being upset by everything they were saying. So the night's going on, and my contractions are picking up and getting closer together. I still was not convinced that I was in labor. I got to the point where I was like, "All right, well, if this is actually it, I should rest." So I tried to lay down, but I had one contraction, and I could not stay on my back for it. I had to get up and move. I decided to get in the shower, and I didn't think anything of it, but after I had a contraction or two in there, I asked my husband to just keep an eye on how far apart they were. At that point, I wasn't paying attention to the clock at all. I was in there, and my husband opened the bathroom door, and he's like, "Colleen, your contractions are three minutes apart." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Maybe we should call the doula." So we did that, and I'm still laboring. I listened to podcasts where women talk about being in labor land, and I didn't understand what that was until looking back on my birth experience because after I told my husband to call my doula, I have very little recollection of interacting with him or talking to her on the phone or anything because the contractions were just so intense. I got to my bedroom and was leaning over the side of my dresser. I didn't move for I don't even know how long it was, but I was there. I couldn't move. I was drinking a little bit of water, and then all of a sudden my water broke. I guess at that point, that's when I was like, oh, okay, I guess I am in labor, and this is happening. So my husband was on the phone with his brother asking him, "Hey, potentially, you might need to come over and watch our son." And while he's on the phone, my water broke. So he's like, "No, you need to come now." In that time, he had his brother on one phone, my doula on the other, and he's trying to corral me to the car, but I was paralyzed and could not move. I was there until all of a sudden I had this mental break almost where I was like, "I need to move right now. If I don't move, I'm having this baby in my bedroom. and that is not the plan." So I waddled myself to the car, and it was hands down the most dangerous car ride of my life. I didn't buckle my seatbelt. I was backward on the seat just trying to like get through everything. My doula had given me a comb, so I was squeezing that during every contraction. I lost my mom when I was pregnant, so I had a very deep connection with her at that point and was talking to my mom, like, "Don't let me give birth in the car, Mom. Do not let me do that." So we eventually get to the hospital, and I had no recollection of this car ride. I remember being at the last major intersection before the turn for the hospital, but other than that, no idea that we were even in the car really. We get to the hospital, and things were picking up so quickly that my husband didn't even find a parking lot. He just pulled into the drop-off area and stopped the car, turned it off, and we made our way into the hospital. My doula met us there, and we had an off-duty nurse end up bringing us a wheelchair, and one of the security guards at the front ended up literally running us back into labor and delivery. That was around 11:00.When I got into the delivery room, it was three or four people, but it felt like a lot of people were there, and they were all trying to get my information and all the forms that I would have filled out beforehand. So at one point, somebody had mentioned a C-section. I remember saying, "I'm not having a C-section." The OB who was on call had said something about me being a TOLAC patient. I yelled at her, "I am not a TOLAC patient. I am a VBAC."They got me onto the bed finally, and they're trying to get the monitors on me. When they finally did, the way that I was kneeling on the bed, the baby's heart rate wasn't liking it. Again, the OB was like, "Okay, maybe we need to think about a C-section." When she said that, I said, "I'm not consenting to a C-section if I'm not guaranteed skin-to-skin afterward." The nurses were kind of a little nervous with the way that I was responding there. My doula was like, "Okay, before we jump to that, let's turn her over and see if things change." So after that contraction, they moved me, and the baby's heart rate was fine. In that moment for me, I didn't really recognize what was happening. But afterward, my husband said that he was very nervous, and he was just yelling for the doula to help in that situation because he didn't know what to do. At that point, when they finally got me situated, I was ready to go at 10 centimeters, fully effaced. Baby was at a zero station, ready to go. And somebody was like, "Oh, do you want an epidural?" And me, my husband, and my doula were all like, "No, there's no epidural happening." So, they got me situated, and I think I pushed maybe five times before the baby was born.Julie: Wow.Colleen: Yeah, I came in hot.Julie: Yeah, you did.Colleen: I pushed. I felt the ring of fire. And the most incredible feeling was after that, feeling her body turn as it came out. It was the ring of fire, and then she flew out after that. There was absolutely no shoulder dystocia there. She was born at 11:38. We parked the car at 11, and she was born at 11:38. At my last scan, they were saying she was going to measure over 9.5 pounds. She was born, and she was 7 pounds, 15 ounces. My doula looked at me and she's like, "If you had had a C-section for a baby that wasn't even 8 pounds, I would have been so mad for you." I got my golden hour. I got skin-to-skin for that entire time. They did all of the baby's testing on me, and they were so respectful of that mother/baby bonding time that I really lost out on with my son. I didn't realize how much it impacted me until after I had my daughter, and I got what I had my heart set on. It was the most healing thing. I didn't realize I had things that needed to be healed in ways that they were. I felt so incredibly powerful, especially after everything was said and done. The nurse who stayed with us and then ended up bringing us to the mother/baby unit, I had asked her, "How often do you see unmedicated VBACs?" And she was like, "It's very, very rare because the providers are nervous about it. They want to have the epidural in place as a just-in-case." But I knew, for me, the fear of a repeat spinal fluid leak was bigger than the fear of any of the pain that would have happened. I know from listening to The VBAC Link that if it were a real emergency, having an epidural ahead of time wouldn't have done anything because it takes a while for the epidural to kick in. Even if I had gotten an epidural when I got to the hospital, it would not have helped me in any way. But she was completely healthy. There were no issues. She passed all of her blood sugar testing which I was really worried about. And then, my blood sugar was fine afterward also. Even still, it's very confusing trying to navigate this super strict diet that I had for so much of my pregnancy to now just being like, "All right, you're fine. It didn't even exist. Go back to eating however you wanted." I don't know. It's very, very confusing. Out of all of the things from my pregnancy, having no support from my providers on the VBAC side of things, and then having no guidance, I should say, with gestational diabetes, those were hands-down the most difficult things. But I did it and I'm still feeling very powerful for that.Julie: Yes, I love that. How old is your baby now?Colleen: She's four weeks.Julie: Oh, my gosh. You are fresh off your VBAC, girl. Colleen: Yeah.Julie: Ride that high as long as you can, man. I still feel really awesome. My first VBAC baby is 9.5 now. 9.5 years old. Okay, so this might sound really weird, but I wish that it wasn't something that we had to feel so victorious about. Does that make sense? I wish it was just way more common and just a normal thing, but it's not. Lots of people have to overcome lots of challenges in order to get the birth experience that they want, and that is sad. As empowering and incredible as it is when it happens, it's also kind of sad that, you know what? I don't know. Does that make sense? Colleen: It makes complete sense. I was going back and trying to research things on VBAC statistics and this, that, and the next thing and listening to other podcasts.Julie: You have to work so hard. It's sad that we have to work so hard.Colleen: A lot of it came down to providers being scared of the consequences that they would face if anything went wrong. I'm like, well, that's not fair because you're not even giving somebody a chance. Everything that I read was if the quote-unquote problem is on the baby's end, then mom has no reason to think that she can't have a VBAC, but so many providers don't see it the same way.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I have 500 things that I want to talk about right now. First of all, I feel like this is the gospel according to Julie. This is not, I don't think, anything that I could find any evidence for or not. But I think sometimes when we, we as in the medical system. We have a parent who has gestational diabetes and change their diet drastically and so completely and eliminate carbs and sugars and all of these things. I feel like when that happens more often, I see babies with significantly smaller birth weights than if we were to make more subtle adjustments to their diets.Colleen: Yeah. I had a couple of gestational diabetes groups on Facebook. So many of the women who would post, after their baby was born, they had either very small babies because they changed their diet so drastically, or their babies were larger because of the insulin, so I agree with the gospel according to Julie.Julie: Yeah, thank you. So that's two of us. I'm pretty sure Meagan would agree as well. So three out of however many. Okay. Let's just leave that right there, first of all.Second of all, just saying that ultrasound measurements are grossly inaccurate. It's not uncommon for them to be. My sister-in-law, right now, is going to get induced on Monday as a first-time mom, completely ignorant to a lot of the birth process and everything and doesn't have a desire to-- she's completely the opposite of me. They're inducing her at 38 weeks because she has gestational diabetes, and they expect her baby's going to be big, and they don't want shoulder dystocia, etc. etc. etc. We know the whole thing, right? I was looking up evidence on shoulder dystocia, and it's really interesting because there are some studies that say first of all, Evidence Based Birth has a really great article on the evidence for induction for C-section or big baby. That will be linked in the show notes. Now it's really interesting because I was looking up rates for shoulder dystocia for big babies versus regular-sized babies. There are some studies that show that smaller babies have up to a 2% chance for shoulder dystocia, and larger babies have anywhere from a 7 to 15% chance of having difficulties with birthing their shoulders. There are other studies that show half of shoulder dystopias occur in babies that are smaller than 8 pounds, and 13 ounces. I feel like there's a little bit of disconnect out there in the research. However, like Colleen, permanent nerve damage occurs with shoulder dystocia in 1 out of every 555 babies, Permanent nerve damage will occur due to stuck shoulders in 1 out of every 555 babies who weigh between 8 pounds, 13 ounces, and 9 pounds, 15 ounces. I'm curious, Colleen, how big were you? Do you know what your birth weight was?Colleen: Yeah, I was 9 pounds 2 ounces.Julie: Okay, so you were barely a big baby.Colleen: Yeah, I was born three weeks early.Julie: Oh my goodness, girl. Yes. Okay, so yes, that was definitely large for gestational age too. But that's okay. Honestly, that means 1 out of every 555 babies will have permanent nerve damage from shoulder dystocia. When we get babies that are 10 pounds or bigger, it's actually 1 out of every 175 babies. I don't want to discount when that happens, but I mean, 554 out of 555 babies don't have that permanent nerve injury, too. I think it's really important that when we look at risks, that we have a really accurate representation of what those risks are in order to make an informed decision. So just like with uterine rupture, we don't want to discount when it happens because it does happen, and it's something that we need to look at. But what are the benefits compared to the risks? Why? What are the benefits of induction compared to the benefits of potentially avoiding a shoulder dystocia? The Evidence Based Birth article is really amazing. I don't want to go on and on for hours about this, although I definitely could, but most of the time, when shoulder dystocias happen, they're resolved without incident. I mean, it can be kind of hard and kind of frustrating and difficult to get the baby out and maybe a little traumatic, but yeah, most of the time everything works out well. Colleen, I'm glad that your birth injury is--I mean, I just feel so proud of your mom for putting into therapy and stuff like that earlier on because it could have had the potential to be a lot worse if she didn't do that. So kudos to your mom. I'm super excited for you. When you were talking-- not excited for you. That is the wrong word to say. I'm grateful that you had access to that care to help you. When you were telling me about your injury, it reminds me of my oldest who has cerebral palsy. It's really, really mild. Most people don't know. He has decreased motor function in his right arm and his right foot. He walks on his toe. He can't really use his right hand too well and his ambidexterity is a little awkward for him. But you said something that really stuck with me. That's just your normal. That's just what you know. I feel like that with my son too. While his disability is limiting in certain ways, he's also found lots of very healthy ways to adapt and manage and live a very full and happy life despite it. I might be putting words in your mouth, but it kind of sounded like you had said similar to that.Colleen: Oh, absolutely. It's just what I know. I don't know anything different.Julie: It's just let you know and yes. It's really fun. It's really not fun. Oh my gosh. Words are hard today. Please edit me out of all of these words. Gosh, my goodness. So not to discount any of that because it does happen, but we also want to make sure that we have accurate representation of the risks. Also, I want to touch on Colleen leaning into your intuition and following that and letting that guide you because I think that's really important as well. Sometimes our intuition is telling us things that don't make sense, and sometimes it's telling us things that makes absolute perfect sense and align right with our goals and our vision. I encourage everyone to lean into that intuition no matter what it's telling you because those mama instincts are real. They are very real. I feel like they deserve more credit than sometimes we give them. So, yeah. I don't know. Colleen, tell me. I know that you had a really awesome doula helping you. Besides hiring a doula and doing your best to find the best support team and advocating for yourself, what other advice would you give people who are preparing for a VBAC?Colleen: I think, like you said at the beginning of the podcast, looking at your options. I didn't know what my options were with my son, and then this time around, I had a better idea of what the options were. And then listening to positive VBAC stories. So, like, I remember maybe six weeks before I had my daughter, just trying to find anything. I searched VBAC on Apple podcasts, and this was the first thing that came up. I listened to two episodes a day until I ended up giving birth.Having all of that positive information was really helpful, and then having my husband so be on board with everything and my doula really talking me off those ledges of absolute devastation after my appointments to the next morning having that confidence again. So those are the things. Julie: I love that too. Yeah.Believe in yourself. Not everyone that tries to VBAC is going to have a VBAC. That's just the unfortunate reality of what it's like. But I think believing in yourself to not only have your best birth experience and having that belief in order to have a VBAC, but also having belief that if your birth doesn't end up in a VBAC that you can navigate those circumstances in order to still have a powerful and satisfying birth experience. Trust yourself. I think that's really, really important.Coleen: Yeah, I agree with that.Julie: Cool. All right, Colleen. Well, thank you so much for spending time here with me today. I loved hearing your stories. I love hearing the little baby noises in the background. Those always make my heart happy. And yeah, we will catch you on the flip side.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

If you are looking for VBAC inspiration, Kelsey's episode is a MUST-LISTEN.Kelsey is a VBA2C mom and speech-language pathologist living in Erie, Pennsylvania. You will feel literal full-body chills as she tells her birth stories on the podcast today. As a first-time mom, Kelsey chose a Cesarean over physiological birth thinking it was the safer, easier route. But after experiencing the reality of two C-sections, she went from fearing vaginal birth to trusting in the labor process even more than her providers did. With her VBA2C, Kelsey got just about every type of pushback in the books. She was coerced, persuaded, questioned, and fear-mongered by multiple providers. Yet Kelsey was able to ground herself by listening to VBAC stories on The VBAC Link Podcast, seeking refuge in her doula and Webster-certified chiropractor, and connecting with other VBAC moms. Kelsey knew her body could do it. She just wanted a chance. Going up against a hospital practice that was saturated with skepticism, Kelsey's labor was beautifully textbook. Her labor progressed quickly, and her biggest baby yet came out in two pushes– “like butter” as described by her doula!VBAC-Certified Doula, Tara Van Dyke's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have another amazing story for you today. And actually, it's stories. We have a VBA2C mama coming your way. And as you know, this is a hot topic because lots of people want to know if vaginal birth after two Cesareans is possible. So Kelsey will be sharing her stories with us today. But guess what, you guys, I have a co-host today and it's Tara. Hello, Tara Van Dyke.Tara: Hello. Hello.Meagan: She is one of our VBAC link doulas. As you probably heard back in 2024, we are going to randomly be having co-hosts from our VBAC Link doulas. I think it's so awesome to have them on. I love hearing the topics and things that they want to suggest to talk to you guys about because again, just like we talked about years ago, we just in Salt Lake City, Utah, can't share enough. And so we want other doulas from all over the world to share as well. So Tara, tell us more about where you're from and then your topic on partners and being prepared.Tara: Yes. So thank you for having me here with you. This is so fun to hear a story live. I'm a doula working in the Chicagoland suburbs. I've been doing that for 20 years and now moving to more of childbirth education as well as like a lower caseload of doula work partly because I just welcomed my first grandchild this week, so I want to be available in a different way in my life. Meagan: Congrats. Very valid. Tara: So I do a lot of childbirth education. But along the way, what's always been really important to me and I feel really passionate about is the partner connection with the person giving birth and their preparation. The research supports it too, that a prepared partner makes a really big difference in outcomes too. I know we talk a lot about doulas and increasing the positive outcomes of birth, and that's been shown over and over in studies, but the actual dream team is a doula and a prepared partner.Meagan: Yeah. I love that.Kelsey: I tell the dads who come to my classes that the doula is important, but we are replaceable in this situation. The partner is so important because of that connection because they bring the oxytocin. They bring the safety. They have that history with you already. And what even bumps that up to being really helpful in the birth room is their preparation and their understanding of what to expect and being completely on board. So theres lots of ways for partners to get prepared, but they get left out a lot. So I feel really strongly that partners are so much better in the birth room when they're not feeling anxious about what's going on, when they know what to expect and they have a few good tools in their pocket for how to help.Meagan: Oh yes, I could not agree more. I always talk about, I make things up, and I call it the doula sandwich. So it's just what I call it in my practice of my doula work. One bun has all the oxytocin and all the knowledge of who you are, and then the other side is the doula who has the education in birth work and the ideas of how to help navigate through the birth space, but also can then support the partner in doing that and educating the partner. So then, we've got two really great sides and then we sandwich the doula. We have great buns. We have really great buns. And we sandwich that mom together and with love and support and education and oxytocin. Like you said, it really creates that dream team. I love that so much. My husband didn't educate himself. He was just, "Okay fine, if you want a VBAC, go do it. You do the research." I did HypnoBirthing with my cousin who luckily was pregnant around the same time, but we did that together, and he just really didn't know. When I told him, "Hey, I want to VBAC after two caesareans out of the hospital," he was like, "Yo, what?" because he was uneducated. I truly feel that it is so powerful. That's why I encourage partners to take the VBAC course with, the mom or an education course in childbirth. Really understand what the mom is going through, but also know how you can help because I do feel like a lot of those dads kind of get shoved aside. They want to help, but they don't know how to help, and they don't really know what's going on. Is that noise good or is that noise bad?Tara: Yes. Yeah. And they're going through the birth, too. This is the birth of their child. So they can also feel, as far as traumatized, hopefully not trauma, but they can feel a lot more dissatisfied or upset by a birth if they didn't know that what was happening was normal. So it's good for them, too, to learn how to take care of themselves as well as their partner.Meagan: Love it so, so much. Everybody, get your partners educated. It is so, so important. Thank you so much for that tip. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Kelsey, it is your turn, my love.Kelsey: Okay, so as you know, I had a VBAC after two C sections which I didn't even know was a thing. You played such a huge part in giving me education and the motivation to pursue this. My story starts in October 2018. My husband and I found out we were pregnant with our first. It was really special because it was actually our two-year wedding anniversary. It was that morning that we found out and we had a special trip plans to Niagara Falls, just up in Canada. It's a special place for us. It was where he proposed to me. It was just a really special time. It was also kind of crazy because up until that point, up until just prior to that, we had been together eight years, and we didn't think we were interested in having kids. I'm so grateful that our mindset had shifted, but it was just kind of a lot at once. We had agreed that we did want to start a family, but it happened really quickly, and it was just a lot to process. I didn't educate myself at all about birth. My husband and I took a class in the hospital, but it was pretty much just how do you take care of a baby. It wasn't how to bring a baby into the world.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes those can be a little more what to expect after than really what to expect during.Kelsey: Exactly. And, I don't know what it was. I don't know if I just couldn't really picture myself giving birth just because we had just kind of come into this or if I just was not believing in my body, but I just felt the opposite of a lot of people on this podcast. They say, "I never thought I would have a C section. I never expected that for myself." For me, I just went into it thinking I'm intimidated by all of this. A C-section sounds easier and I cringe saying that now. But, I just thought not having to go through labor and not having to push a baby out, I just always had that in my head. That comes into play with how my first ended up. I was told throughout my pregnancy that my baby was big and specifically it was driven home, "The head is big. The shoulders are big." They were telling me about shoulder dystocia, and I didn't know anything. So I'm thinking, oh my gosh, not only am I already intimidated by the idea of birth. I know nothing about birth, but now you're telling me I have this big baby. My OB was really telling me maybe a C-section should be considered. And then she threw it out there. "Well, we could induce 39 weeks and see how things go." And again, I was just trusting her. She had been my gynecologist since I was a teenager. To me, I thought, okay, that makes sense. Baby's big. And again, I hadn't done any research on my own. So we did what I referred to as a half-hearted induction. I feel like it was just done to humor everyone. Like, "Oh, we tried." But I went in the night before at 39 weeks on the dot. Nothing was going on with my cervix. Surprise, surprise at 39 weeks. They did Cervadil and I just lay in the bed. My husband and I watched the fireworks out the window. It was the fourth of July. We were just completely not prepared for anything. Just going along with this and thinking, oh, we'll just have a C-section tomorrow if this doesn't happen. They came in the morning and nothing had happened. So they were like, "Oh, well, we could start Pitocin. We could do this." I just wasn't interested in any of that. I wasn't motivated to have a vaginal birth. I guess that's okay. That's just where my head was at the time. I've accepted that's just where I was at. So we had the C-section. It was a surgery. Just being there and as baby comes out, just hearing everybody in the OR talk about, "Oh, look at her cheeks and look at the hair." It was minutes before I'm ever able to get a quick flash of her around the curtain before they swoop her off. It was just a weird experience, but it was all I knew. I was grateful that it went okay, but it just makes recovery so hard, so painful. When I think back to it, just think about just crying while my husband's trying to do my abdominal binder, not being able to get in and out of bed, struggling to breastfeed, even getting in a position of breastfeed with that searing surgical pain. We struggled, and I ended up exclusively pumping. So it was tough as a first-time mom just dealing with all of that. But again, I didn't know any different. I think that was a blessing that I didn't know what I was potentially missing. For my second birth, we knew he wanted more than one child. You just never know how things are going to happen. We just weren't trying to not get pregnant, and it happened right away. The babies were 16 months apart, so when I showed up to my appointment, my OB, the same one who had said, "You have this big baby, and you should have a C-section or induce at 39 weeks." Oh, the ARRIVE study was hot off the press at that point too. So he was excited to show me the ARRIVE study back.Meagan: Oh, yeah, but you're not even a first-time. I mean, you were a first-time vaginal mom. So the ARRIVE trial, you know. You've been with us. Hashtag eyeball.Tara: Yeah, yeah, it changes. It's changed everything.Meagan: It really has. And I don't know if it really has changed for the better in my opinion.Kelsey: So sorry, that was for my first birth. I forgot to mention.Meagan: Oh, oh, oh, sorry. Yes, that would make sense. Yes.Kelsey: So with the second, it was the same OB, and she's like, "Okay, since your births are so close together, you'll just be a repeat C-section. You can make appointments with me, and I'll do your surgery. Easy peasy." I'm thinking, oh, okay. That makes sense because she's talking about uterine rupture, and they're so close together and I didn't research on my own. Is there another option? How risky really is this compared to a repeat C-section? I just trusted her so much. I had been with her for so long. I figured she must have my best interests at heart.Meagan: Yeah.Kelsey: I didn't even think to myself, my own mother had a VBAC with a 13-month age gap. I was a C-section, and my brother was a VBAC at 13 months 30 years ago. Meagan: Uh-huh.Kelsey: You only know what you know at the time. And so even though I didn't look into it in the ways that I should have, I did know that I wanted the experience to be a little different. So I found out about gentle C-section which I think is a funny term. Meagan: I was happy to see that you could request a clear drape, and you could request not to be tied down to the table. We did implement a few of those things. I had the clear drape. It was nice to see her coming out just for a quick flash before they swooped her away. It was nice not to be completely-- I had one arm free which is funny these things that we consider luxuries when you're having a C-section. So it was a little bit better in that way, but there were things that were also worse. They couldn't get the needle in, and they had a resident doing things. I was having trouble. I was starting to pass out during. They were having to adjust. It was stressful in its own way. I had some things that were a little better. But also, it's just's a C-section. Also, during, my OB made a comment as she has me completely open, all seven layers of me. She said, "Yeah, who was it the did your last C-section?",I told her and she made no comment. I said, "Why are you asking me this as you're inside my uterus?" She said, "There's just more scar tissue than I would have expected." She said, "Hey, you can have another baby if you want, but just wait more time in between. Just not so close together." So that was something that got in my head too. Anyway, we thought there was no way we would ever have a third. It was really hard having two under two recovering from another C-section. It was November 2020, so it was the first COVID winter. It was cold. It was dark. Everything was closed down. Everybody was in masks. It was so depressing. It's like, postpartum isn't hard enough. As if two under two isn't hard enough, then adding COVID.Meagan: Yeah, adding zero support and zero resources. Yeah.Kelsey: Nowhere to get out and do anything. It was a bummer. So anyway, it was a lot, and we thought, no way are we ever going to have three. It was just a hard season. So I donated everything. I put all my carriers and all my stuff out on the porch and said, "Come get it," to the local moms group. I just couldn't see myself having a third. Well, then the years pass, and things get easier. You come into an easier season. All of a sudden, we're not dealing with diapers and bottles. It's like, we could leave the house. Things are opening back up. My husband and I had talked about a third and toyed around with the thought of it, but it's just hard to pull the trigger once you've come into this easy season. The thought of hitting the reset button is intimidating. But all it really took was watching him take down my youngest's crib with her. And it was like, okay, this is something that we want to do. It was a funny conversation that night. I said, "If we were to get pregnant this cycle, we would have a June baby, and that would be really nice." So that's what happened. I was playing it with my third. That's when I realized. I mean, I had thought about it, obviously, but I realized, oh, my gosh, I have to have another C-section, a third C-section. Talk about being years away from it and thinking about how you're all healed. It's been a few years, and to think about them cutting open again and just knowing what that entails, I was just in a whole different headspace. I was thinking, how is there a way that I can avoid this?Before my first appointments, I did a quick Google search, "vaginal birth after two C-sections" just to see if this was something anybody had done or was doing or was even possible. I was so excited to see that people were doing this. It looked like it was actually potentially a good possibility. So I was thinking, I've got to be the right candidate. I didn't even need those first C-sections. I knew this now, reflecting back. Yeah, I had my first screening where they do your intake, and they were asking a bunch of questions. And I had said at the RN, I said, "Would I be able to maybe have a vaginal delivery after two C sections?" And she was like, "Oh, they consider it after one, but once you've had two, you're a C-section for life."Meagan: Oh, jeez.Kelsey: Something about her saying that and the way that she said it, I went from being a little bit curious and oh, this might be good, to no, this is something I'm going to pursue. It just didn't feel right. She didn't know my history. She didn't know why I have my C-sections. So to tell me, "Oh, no. You need to have a third major surgery for sure. No option." Tara: It was this moment when it brings a fight out in you. Like, I am gonna do this now.Kelsey: I'll never forget how I felt at that moment. So I started to have my appointments with the OBs, and I would bring it up. Everything was perfect. It was going really smoothly. So the appointments would be like two minutes, and then at the end they'd say, "Do you have any questions or concerns?" And I'd say, "Yeah, I wanted to see what my options are for delivery." They were like, "Well, we decided as a practice to support VBAC after one C-section, but we actually have a policy against VBAC after two C sections."Meagan: How did I know that was coming? The policy, I swear, every time it's like, "We decided as a practice or as a practice, we--". It's always like, they created this stupid policy that actually is against evidence based care. But okay.Kelsey: I'm thinking to myself, so then what do you do? Anyway, I was just mind blown by that. I went to a couple of more appointments there. You'd go every month and they'd say, "Any questions?" I'd say, "Yes. I'm just really not feeling good about the idea of a third C-section." I said, "The risks of a third Cesarean intimidate me much more than doing a trial of labor." I've never given my body a chance. It's not like I've been through this before and things went wrong. I've never been given a fair chance. They were very nice, but they just look at me and smile and nod and say, "Well, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay," and not even entertain the idea for a second. So I'm thinking to myself, okay. I've gotta figure something out. So at that point, when I had talked to a couple of providers, and they were all very consistent about, "Nope. Nope, not even going to entertain it," I knew something had to change. I'm reaching out. I'm searching in the local moms group about C-sections. Has anybody had a VBAC after two? It was crickets. Nobody was responding. I was looking back years trying to find anybody who had done this, in the area. Wat I was finding is, "No, it's not going to happen in Erie. You need to go to Pittsburgh or try a home birth." And I'm just really not comfortable with the home birth even though I know that's a perfect option for plenty of people.Meagan: It didn't feel right for you.Kelsey: Yeah. It just wasn't what I was feeling like I wanted to do. So I reached out, and I had not known anything about doulas until your podcast. I hardly even knew what they did before listening. I just searched "doulas in Erie." I called the first one I saw. I left a message that was probably pretty unhinged just like, "Help! What do I do? Is this something I can do?" She called back, and it was the first time that I had any validation at all. Up until then, it was just people telling me no, people telling me policies and not safe. It was the first time that I was heard. I was heard. She said, "There's really no reason why you can't have a chance. We'll figure this out." I kept doing my research. I dug really deep, and I found a few people who had referred to providers being supportive. I was reaching out. I was sending people DMs saying, "Hey, sorry to be huge creep, but can you tell me more about your experience?: I found out that at the other practice there were providers who would consider this. So it wasn't looking super promising, but it was better than where I was at. So I kind of took a chance. I switched practices at 28 weeks. Prior to that, I had an amazing appointment at 24 weeks. I had one last appointment at that office with the policy. He was amazing. If you could have just copied and pasted him, he was just like a midwife. I mean, he was very upset about the policy. He said, "How do you even enforce that?" He said, "What are we going to do? What are we going to do, strap you down and take you to the OR?" I wish that he had a podcast episode because he took so much time. He explained to me  the history of C-sections and how, in his words, the pendulum has swung so far from only doing C-sections when they were needed to they're safe now. Let's do them whenever we can. He talked about the whole policy thing and how they met as a group. He said, "Some of these younger JOBs have only been practicing now that C-sections are so common. They haven't seen the success." He said, "You have just as much of a chance of success as a 20-year-old walking off of the elevator because our C-section rate is so high. You have just as much of a chance." He laughed at the fact that macrosomia was in my chart, which I forgot to mention with my first. She was 9 pounds, 1 ounce. She was big.Meagan: Okay. I wanted to ask you though because they had said, "Oh, big baby, 16 months apart." I wanted to ask, but 9 pounds, 1 ounce is actually not macrosomia. It's a bigger baby, but it's not a huge baby.Kelsey: Exactly. It's not 12 pounds, which also, people have done. But anyway, he put so much wind into my sails, and he fully supported me switching. He said, "Honestly, I think this is great. I think this is the best option for you. You need to go for it." He said, "But if you were to stay here, you would face nothing but doubt and bullying and scary." He said, "If you were my wife, I would tell you to switch over to this other practice." So that's what I did. I also forgot to mention in my anatomy scan, the sonographer is going about doing it and she said, "Were your other babies big?" I'm like, no, we're not gonna start this. It was already with the big baby comments. So they had me do a growth scan to switch practices. It was refreshing to be in a place where they entertained the idea. They said that they decided as a practice to follow what ACOG says, but it was also very clear the difference between support versus tolerance. So although I was grateful that they were entertaining the idea, I still had, "Oh, 90th percentile. Oh, you've never labored before. You don't have a proven pelvis."Meagan: Proven pelvis. Tara: Yeah, proven pelvis.Meagan: There's a lot of eye rolls in this.Kelsey: Thank goodness, again, if it weren't for this podcast, all of those little comments would have swayed me. I would have said, "What am I doing? Listen to all these things they're saying. This isn't right for me." Once you know, it's just so hard to listen to the VBAC calculator. "Oh, let's just type your stuff in and see." I think it gave me, like 50% chance. Like, I don't know. So anyway, I'll get back on track. My low point was at 32 weeks. It was with my provider who was convincing me that a C-section or induction was right, and then telling me, "Oh, you'll just be a repeat. We'll schedule it." I was dreading my appointment with her. I knew that I needed to meet with her because she could possibly be the provider who was on call. I wanted to tell her what my plan was, and assess her thoughts. I thought that I was invincible because now I knew all of these things, and I wasn't going to let anybody bring me down. That appointment was pretty terrible. She came in hot. She said, "You're 32 weeks. Baby is 5 pounds, 4 ounces, and he's off the charts." She actually referred to him as massive. She said, "He's massive. He's huge." She said, "Put him in a room with 100 babies, and he is enormous."Meagan: Enormous. Tara: She's comparing him to other babies already. Meagan: And he's not even born. Tara: Can I just add a little tidbit here because there's so much talk in your story about the fear of big babies, and the research has shown that what leads to more problems or interventions in a birth with a big baby is not the actual size of the baby, but the provider's fear of the big baby. They're already getting themselves stirred up, and nothing has even happened. Kelsey: I was really discouraged by that because I had come across those facts too. And looking at the research and looking at what are the real risks of a big baby, that's actually just the providers. Yeah, se was just disgusted with my plan. She said, "Are you sure?" I said, "Yeah." I really stood my ground. I was so proud of how I stuck to my guns. She pulled out all the stops. She just kind of sighed and she said, "Okay." And then she pulled it out of me as I was  trying to justify. I said, "We're not sure how much we want to grow our family." I said, "If I have three C-sections, I'm not going to want a fourth." I said, "I just think it's worth a try." So she took that and she ran with it. She said, "Well, for what it's worth, I would rather do two more planned C-sections. I would do two more planned C-sections on you, and I wouldn't bat an eye. I'd rather do that than have you TOLAC." I thought, oh, my gosh. So again, I stood my ground. She went out. She was visibly upset. I was so proud of myself. But then I spiraled that whole day. It just chipped away at me all day. I came home.  I had been doing nightly walks religiously. That's when I would listen to The VBAC Link. That night, I didn't do my walk. I cried in my bed. I was just so upset. I spent the night then going through the groups I was in for VBAC after multiple Cesareans and The VBAC Link searching "big baby, big head circumference" and screen-shooting all of the success and all of the comments to fuel back my motivation. That was definitely the low point, but I did have some great meetings with providers. I was grateful that where I was living, I was able to find enough support where they would let me go for it. Once I got toward the end, there kept being the comments about "big baby". I had an OB do my final measurement and not tell me what it was. I said, "How is baby measuring? There is a lot of drama about baby being big." She was like, "Well, how big were your other two?" I said, "They were 9,1 and 8,4". My second was almost a full pound smaller. She said, "Oh, if you pushed those out, no problem. You don't have anything to worry about." I said, "That's where the drama was. I didn't push them out. I had C-sections." It was like she saw a ghost. She was like, "Oh, well that is drama." She was just beside herself. I say that story specifically because spoiler alert, she was the one who ended up delivering my baby.Meagan: Oh, really?Kelsey: To give a preface to that. She actually said, "Well, it is what it is." She just was very nervous and very upset. I said, "Have you never seen a VBAC after two C-sections? Have you seen that?" She said, "Well, yeah, but it's usually with people who have birthed vaginally before, and not with a big baby." That's what she said. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Kelsey: I just wanted to talk about that because she was the one who delivered Anyway, time went on. As I got to 39 weeks, I started to stand my ground a little bit more because they wanted to do cervical checks. They'd say, "Okay, undress for the provider." I just was like, "No, thank you. I'm good." I would have been really discouraged if they had come in and checked me. I know that got in my head with previous appointments with things that I didn't think would affect me. At 39 weeks, one of the providers who had been trying to talk about how big my baby was and persuade me to have an induction, she said, "What if we did a growth scan at 40 weeks, and you were measuring 10 pounds. Would that change your mind?" I was like, "No. I'm not doing a growth scan at 40 weeks. I've already done too many scans." So just right up until the end, they were trying to get me. They were talking about the size. Meagan: They were really trying to get you to cave. Kelsey: Yes. So after that appointment, because of my BMI, after 37 weeks and beyond, you have to have an NST and a BPP (biophysical profile) every week. Meagan: After 37 weeks?Kelsey: Starting at 37 weeks, you have to have both of those tests every week. It was just a new thing. I didn't do it with my last. Again, I'm worried about this. I know how the testing goes. Sure enough, I go. This is 39 weeks. I go for the biophysical profile, and they were like, "There is a lot of fluid. You have too much fluid." They were talking about all of the fluid. "Look, here are little flakes." They were talking about the fluid. I thought, I've made it this far. This is something that is going to make it a C-section.Baby wasn't also taking enough practice breaths for her which was frustrating. She even said, "I think he's sleeping, but I want to be on the safe side." I said, "I just had an appointment. She could hardly get his heart rate because he was moving so much." I had driven to Cleveland an hour and a half away the night before to go to a Noah Con concert. I felt him moving the whole time. I was like, "I'm pretty confident that he's okay. I was just checked by my OB five minutes ago." She wanted to send me. I wasn't going to mess around this far on, so I went to triage. They hooked me up to an NST. They wouldn't just let me do it in the office. I'm sitting there. Everything is perfect. The nurse comes in and said, "They're just going to place an IV." I stopped and said, "What did you say?" She said, "They're just going to place an IV." I said, "Why would they place an IV? Everything is looking good. I have grocery pickup in an hour. I'm not trying to be here for long." She said, "Just for access." I said, "No, thank you. Please let me out." That was weird.She said, "Okay. We're just going to watch you a little longer." Then this OB who I'd never seen before who was apparently just newer to the practice comes in. I'm like, "How are things going?" At this point, it had been 45 minutes. I'm trying to get out. He said, "Things are looking really good." I could see his wheels turning. He said, "But, since you are 39 weeks and you've had two C-sections, we can do a C-section for you today." Meagan: Oh my Santa. Tara: Here you go. How did you manage all of this pressure, Kelsey? It's extraordinary. Meagan: It is. Kelsey: I should mention that I had an amazing doula, so after these appointments, I would text her a paragraph. She was constantly lifting me back up. I was going to Webster chiropractic care. The chiropractor I saw, shout out to Tori, she's amazing. She's a doula also. She was pregnant going for her VBAC, so we would have these appointments, and it was a mini VBAC therapy session. We would talk about what we were up against, and just the different providers because she was going to the same practice as me. It was just so nice to have her. I was doing all of the things. The chiropractic care. I was eating the dates and drinking the tea because I wanted to know that if I was doing this, I was going to try everything and then I couldn't look back and say, "What if I would have done chiropractic?" Anyway, I basically tell him, "Get out of my room. I'm going." He just was awful. He did all of the scare tactics and all of the risks but none of the risks of a third C-section of course. Only the risks of the very low uterine rupture that he was hyping up. Anyway, that was bizarre, but again, I stood my ground. I was so proud, but then I got home, and I spiraled. I was packing my hospital bag. I was crying. I said to my husband, "I let them get in my head. I shouldn't even bother packing any of this stuff." I had the little fairy lights and things to labor. I was like, "I shouldn't even bother packing any of this VBAC stuff. They're just going to find some reason to do a C-section. Look at this. This whole time, they wanted to do the C-section." Again, another night of spiraling. As he left, he said, "They're going to want to see you tomorrow and repeat all of this testing." Meagan: For what? If everything was okay, what was the actual medical reason? Kelsey: Exactly. It was just out of spite because I shut him down. They were like, "They're going to want you to come back tomorrow." I'm like, "Okay. If it gets me out of here and gets you out of access to an IV and a C-section, fine." Meagan: Seriously. Kelsey: The next morning, I'm on my way to my appointment. I was on the phone with my mom and I told her, "I'm having these weird feelings I've never felt before. I don't know if maybe they're contractions." It was very strange. It was something I never felt. I never had a contraction and had never gone into labor. So I go to my appointment and passed the BPP with flying colors. I'm like, "Well, what about the fluid?" She's like, "Yeah, there's a lot of it, but it's fine." I got an 8 out of 8 score.  I go for the NST. Well now, baby's moving too much, so his heart rate, they can't keep it on because he's moving, and she kept having to move it. So again, I'm just very frustrated that I'm even there. I'm so close to the end. This is now 39 weeks and 4 days. And so the tech says, "I'm going to bring this to him. He might not like the drop offs, but I'll explain to him that the baby's moving a lot."I said, "Who's he? What OB is this?" She said the OB who was in triage the day before who tried to have me do the C-section and I was just like, "Oh my god. He's going to see my name and have any reason to send me back." Sure enough, he comes sauntering in the room and he says, "We meet again," as if I'm this problem child, as if I wasn't just having all these normal tests. He says, "I can't be confident that these aren't decals. You need to go back to triage." I was just again, so frustrated. It's like just a constant of all of these things coming up and none of it being real. It'd be different if it was like, oh, this was actually a risky thing. But again, I'm so close to the end. I know what I know. I knew that the OB that I had seen the day before in the office, I wanted to talk to her about the fluid because I had searched, and I saw that the polyhydramnios could actually be a thing. If your water breaks, there's the risk of cord prolapse. So I knew that that wasn't something that was completely to be ignored, so I wanted to talk to her more about that. I humored him, and I went in. Well, all the while, I'm feeling these sensations more and more consistently. They get me hooked up, and I explain the situation. I said that I was just here yesterday not really for a reason, but I'm back now also not really for a reason. They hook me up. Of course, everything looks good. But she's like, "Are you feeling these contractions?" I'm like, "Is that what they are?" I was excited. They were just cracking up because she's like, "These are pretty consistent and big contractions." I just couldn't believe it. I was just so excited my body was doing it. I'd only ever, at 39 weeks, been cut off and then never been given a chance. All I needed, I guess, was a few extra days. I'm just so excited that I'm having contractions. The nurses are laughing. "We've never seen somebody so excited to have contractions." Anyway, at that point, my OB comes in, the one who had been trying to get me to be induced. She's plenty nice, but the one who said about if we did a scan of 40 weeks and 10 pounds, would you reconsider? So she said, "Kelsey, do you know what I'm going to say? This is the second day you've been in here in two days." I'm like, "Yeah, but for nothing."Meagan: And because you asked me to come in here.Kelsey: Yeah, trying to humor everyone and see that yep, everything's fine. See? But again, I was having these contractions, and as I was there, picking up. She wanted to check me. I said, "Okay, I'll let you check me," because I'm having contractions I never have before, and I want to see what's going on. I went to the bathroom, and I had bloody show, which again, I had never had. So things are really happening. I come out and I told her, "There's blood and I'm having contractions." She's like, "Yay, let's check you," and I was 1 centimeter. She was one of the OBs who was comfortable with a balloon. So she said, "I'll tell you what. You've got a lot of fluid. Things are happening. Let's work on moving things along."Meagan: So she induced you?Kelsey: She wanted to.Meagan: She wanted to. Okay.Kelsey: So she's like, "Let's get you in. I'll do the balloon. We can get things going because you've got a lot of fluid. It's time, Kelsey." I'm like, "Okay." I said, "Well, I'm gonna go home."Meagan: Good for you, girl.Kelsey: Get my kids off with my mom and get my dog off. She sunk when I said that. I said, "I promise I'll come back. I'm not gonna run it. I'll come back just in a little while. Like, maybe this evening." But she said, "Okay, I'm here till 4:00, and then it's another OB coming on who won't want to do the balloon." So just come in before then. Of course, I wait until exactly 4:00. But as I was home, it just kept picking up, and I started timing. The app is like, "Go to the hospital. Go to the hospital." But I've also know from listening to this podcast that that happens. My husband's freaking out because he would see me stop and pause, and he's like, "Let's go. Let's get out of here." I was grateful that everything maintained through the car ride. I got there, and contractions were still happening. My doula met us there because I hear about people going too early and the contractions stop, and then there are problems there. Yeah, things just kept happening. We got in a room. My doula was amazing. We were just hanging out and just laughing. I couldn't believe just how happy I felt to feel my body doing it after all these years of just, "Your babies are too big, and you can't do this," and then all of this pregnancy saying that. It was just amazing.  I definitely had my guard up. The nurse was talking about the IV and the monitors, and especially with being overweight, I was worried about a wireless monitor. That happens. They can't get a good reading, and then they think baby's heart rate's dropping. I was just so worried about any reason, because I knew that they would. They would take it and run, so I was so grateful that the wireless monitoring worked perfectly. I was on my feet. Things just kept getting more intense, but I'm just laughing and smiling through it all. My doula was amazing. It was just such a great vibe in the room. My nurses were amazing. Every little thing that went right, I just embraced. I was so happy that this was happening. My water broke while I was on a video call with my friend. Again, it just like, "Oh, my gosh, my water broke. That's never happened." There was meconium in the water. So again, I'm like, oh, no. You know, any little thing. I was quickly reassured. It was very light. It wasn't anything to be worried about. I labored and stayed on my feet. My doula was amazing with suggesting things I never would have thought or never would have thought that I would enjoy. I was in the shower at one point on a ball. They had this little wooden thing with a hole in it so that it keeps the ball from slipping out and keeps the drain from plugging. I'm just listening to my guilty pleasure music while my husband's outside the shower eating a Poptart laughing. It was just such a funny thing. I was just so, so excited about it all. Things were really picking up. My water just kept breaking and breaking. I mean, it was true. I had so much fluid. It just was just coming out and coming out. I couldn't believe how much there was. I got into the bed on my side, my doula said, "Try to take a break," and then I felt a water balloon in me. I could feel it burst. Just when I thought surely I was out of fluid, it just gushed out. And then immediately it was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is really intense." I handled that for a while. I was squeezing the comb. I was working through contractions, but I tapped out at about 1:00 AM I'd say. So we got into the hospital around 4:00, and the time just flew. They came to do the epidural, and he put it in. I just kept waiting for relief because I felt like I just didn't have a break. They were kind of on top of each other. It was one of those things that if I knew I was only going to have to do that for a short amount of time, but just not knowing how long, I just felt like I was suffering through them at that point. I wasn't trying to be a hero. I was just trying to avoid what I know sometimes happens and just trying to avoid interventions as much as I could. I kept waiting for this relief because I'm like, "I think I just need to rest. I feel like I'm close." The last I've been checked, I was 5 centimeters, but that was before the water broke and before struggling through contractions for a while. I had no idea how dilated I was. The relief never came. I was hoping to be able to relax and maybe take a nap like sometimes I hear. I could still feel my legs. I could have walked around the room if I wanted. I kept pushing the button. I don't know if it was in the wrong spot or what happened. I don't know if maybe there was something that was working because instead of feeling crushing and just defeated through the contractions, I was feeling like I can survive that. I can get through them. There was just no resting, it was just still having to work through contractions. And then my doula at one point said, "Maybe we should call him in and have him redo it." But then I was in my head, "Well, what if he redoes it, and then I'm too numb and I can't push?" So I just went through it. I'm so glad that I did, because it wasn't long after that that I was checked, and I was 8 centimeters. My  nurse kept checking and there was a lot going on down there and a lot coming out. Eventually she checked me and she said, "Hi. Hi, buddy. I just couldn't believe it." She said, "Do you want to feel him?" I got to reach down and feel his head. It was just also surreal. She had me do a practice push once I was dilated enough, and she's like, "O, oh, okay, okay, okay." She said, "I'm gonna go make a phone call."Tara: Wow, that's impressive.Kelsey: And the OB came in. I forgot to say that when I got to the hospital, the OB who was gonna do the Foley balloon, I totally left this out. She checked me, and I was already 2 centimeters. She said, "Your body is doing it on its own. We're just going to let you go."Tara: That was my question, Kelsey. I was wondering this whole time if they did anything to augment. There was no Pitocin. This was all you? Kelsey: Yes. Yes. I can't believe it.Tara: That's amazing.Kelsey: I got there, and I got the monitor placed. She came in. She checked, and she said, "You're 2 centimeters. We're just going to let you go. We're going to let you do your thing." That was just music to my ears just knowing how things sometimes go. Also, the OB coming on, I had told you, was really nervous about my plan. My husband and I joked that she did something to calm herself down before she walked in because she was just like, "You know what? I'm going to do something crazy. I'm just going to channel my inner midwife and do something crazy and just let you go and leave you alone." My doula is like, "Good. Please let us go." Yeah, I forgot to mention that is not only did I not need the induction, but then I had the OB surrendering and saying, "Go ahead, just let's do it. It's fine." So she literally did not come in. I think was as far away as she could pretending it wasn't happening, I guess. When the nurse called her, she came in and she got her gloves on. I just kept waiting for something to happen still. I'd been so, so scared by providers this whole time. So I'm like, okay. She instructed me on how to push. We did it through one contraction, and his head came out. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is crazy," and then, during the second contraction, I did it again, and the rest of him came out. It was unbelievable. It was five minutes from start to finish. My doula described it like butter. He was 9 pounds, 3 ounces.Meagan: So biggest baby. OkayKelsey: Biggest baby, enormous head. I didn't have any tears. I had what the OB described as grazes, like little spots that were bleeding. She put one or two stitches on the walls from where there were these grazes and I can't even describe it. I was sobbing. I was like, "We did it. We did it." He came right to my chest and to get to see him, it was unbelievable. It all happened so fast. Going from not believing in my body and just going for these C-sections, I'm so glad I didn't know what I was missing because in that moment, I probably could have done this before. Again, I didn't know what I didn't know and who knows would have gone? But it was just unbelievable to be in a normal room to have him come out and just right to me where he belongs and getting to see him with his cord still attached and he's crying. It just was such a beautiful moment and I just couldn't believe that had after all of that, here he was. It was beautiful. They asked about cutting the cord, and we hadn't even discussed that. I was like, "Can I do it? I really want to do it." I wanted all the experiences that I could never have gotten in the OR. I cut his cord. My doula got an awesome picture of that. I was considering having that be my picture for the podcast. It was just unbelievable, and I was just so happy, too, that that OB was the one who was there because seeing how nervous she was, I'm so glad that she got to experience. Look what you almost deterred me from doing just seeing how perfect it was. Now I'm hoping that if somebody comes to her in the future, she'll remember and say, "Hey, we had this baby, and it was just such a great experience." I was just so grateful for every second. I couldn't believe how things ended up.Meagan: I am so happy for you. Like Tara was saying, I'm so impressed. Standing your ground the way that you stood your ground after just constant-- I'm gonna call it nagging. They were just nagging on you and trying so hard to use the power of their knowledge that we know that they hold. We as beings, and it's not even just in the birth world, just as humans, we have this thing where we have providers, and we know that they've gone through extensive amount of schooling and trainings, so it's sometimes easy as you said, you spiraled when you got back to spiral and be like, wow, they're just all pushing this really hard. Maybe I should listen. Tara, have you experienced this within supporting your clients or just your own personal experience?Tara: You mean the pushback from the providers?Meagan: Yeah, the pushback, and then for us, should we doubt our intuition? Should we doubt what we're feeling and go with what they're saying because they know more?Tara: Yeah, I mean, that's the hardest thing, because you hire them. Like you said with your first provider, you trusted her. You'd known her since you were young. You've built this trust. She's gone to school. It's so hard to stand up against that as just a consumer and as a person who cares about the health of your baby and your family. But then the multiple times that you had to stand up for yourself even in small things like not getting the IV, not getting the cervical exam, those are not small things. You were protecting yourself from having more of that pushback. I am amazed. We struggle with that as doulas too, because we're helping advocate for our clients. It sounds like your doula was a rock for you and a place to feel validated and heard. I'm so glad you had her.Kelsey: Me too. I say to my husband, "No offense, you're great, but what would be done without our doula?" I mean, she was unbelievable just bringing the positive energy. My husband and I were so nervous and we were so worked up. We were third-time parents, but it was our first time doing any of this. My husband wouldn't have really known. He's never seen it before. My doula, she's done this so many times. She was right in there with the massaging and the side-lying. She did the, she called it shaking the apples.Tara: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. But Kelsey, it's against all odds. I just think it's amazing because we talk about the power of oxytocin and feeling safe and not having stress hormones going on, and you had all of that. You should be so proud of your body coming in in the nick of time and just proving against all of this. I'm just gonna go ahead and birth this baby, and a bigger baby than your other two which is such a triumphant moment.Meagan: Seriously.Kelsey: His head was 15 inches. That was another thing because they had talked about his head circumference being off the chart. That was another thing I had been searching is people who've had the big head circumference. Those groups, this podcast and just groups and having access to so many stories and people overcoming all of these obstacles because every time I came up against something, I had heard it before. I said, "Oh, this is something that I've heard time and time again with these stories. They make you feel like you're the only one with the big baby and, oh, this is a problem. But it's like, no. They're saying this to so many people. It was just amazing going into this being so informed and motivated and having that confidence that I never would have had. I just so grateful for this podcast and for all the information.Meagan: Well, thank you so much. It's one of the coolest things, I think, not only just the VBAC, but to see where you came from at the beginning of, "We're not having kids. Okay. We're having kids. Okay. This is what I'm thinking. I'm kind of scared of this. Let's do this. Okay. Doctor said this. Let's do this." to this. I mean, you came so talking about the pendulum, right? And what that provider was talking about. You came from one side over here to not even wanting kids or wanting a vaginal birth to swinging so far to the other side and advocating so hard for yourself and standing your ground. When we say that you should be proud, I am shouting it. Be proud of yourself. Girl, you are incredible. You are such a great example. Women of Strength, if you are listening right now, I want you to know that you can be just like Kelsey. You do not have to be bullied. You do not have to be nagged on every single time. Know what's right. Know your gut. Know your heart. Do what you need to do, and you can do it. You can do it. It is hard. I know it's hard. It is not easy, but it is possible. Girl, you're amazing. I thank you so much for sharing your story today and empowering all the Women of Strength who are coming after you and needing the same encouragement that you needed not even years ago. How old was your baby?Kelsey: So he is four months old.Meagan: Four months. Yeah, so a year ago when you were listening. I mean, really, so so amazing. Thank you so much. And Tara, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for being here. I couldn't agree more with your advice. Get your partners educated. Create that true dream team.Kelsey: Thank you.Tara: Congratulations, Kelsey.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lily's VBAC birth story episode is finally here!!! You know and love her just like we do. She not only manages the social media content here at The VBAC Link but also spends so much time connecting with you personally. She has the biggest heart for VBAC and champions all types of empowered birth.Lily walks us through her experiences with ectopic pregnancy, loss, her traumatic Cesarean, and how she persisted through a 66-hour long labor without an epidural to achieve her hospital water birth VBAC.If you followed her pregnancy journey, you saw that Lily was incredibly proactive during her pregnancy. She built the strongest team of birth and body workers. She was specific in her desires, yet remained open-minded. This served her so well in labor and made all the difference during her birth!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. You guys, today is a very exciting day. We have recently had two of our VBAC Link team members have their babies. Paige was one with the first Maternal Assisted Cesarean in Korea, and today is the second with Lily. Oh my gosh. If you guys have been on our social media, you have seen our cute Lily. She is just so amazing. She's so fun. She's in the DMs on Instagram literally every day chatting with you. I just absolutely adore her. She's so incredible. Lily is a born and raised Colorado-- I don't even know how to actually say this. Lily is a born and raised Coloradoan.I think that is how you say it.She's from Colorado, living in northern Colorado with her husband, son, and daughter. She is a kinesiologist who works in community health and a dual-certified fitness instructor passionate about movement and wellness. After an unexpected Cesarean two and a half years ago, Lily found The VBAC Link and began planning her VBAC and is excited to share her story today. I cannot wait for you to hear it. This was actually the first time that I got to hear it in its entirety. It's just amazing, and I'm excited for you to hear it. Like I mentioned, Lily is also our social media assistant at The VBAC Link and is truly honored to empower and hold space for all the Women of Strength in our community. You guys, she is absolutely amazing. We love her so, so, so, so much. We do have a review that we're going to share, and then we are going to turn the time over to our sweet Lily to share her stories. This review is by Savannah, and it says, "Started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast around 16 weeks pregnant and continued throughout my pregnancy. It was so good and encouraging for me as a mama who was preparing for a VBAC. It helped me gain confidence, and helped me know what to look for and watch out for in my providers. Hearing other stories was so encouraging and helped me gain so much knowledge. I had my hospital VBAC unmedicated with an 8-pound, 15-ounce baby and I know the knowledge I gained from this podcast played a huge role in being able to advocate for myself and get a better birth outcome." Congratulations, Savannah. We're going to talk a little bit about this today as well with Lily on the podcast how sometimes the thought of going to the hospital is scary because of stories you've heard or things you've heard. But VBAC can happen in the hospital, and it can be beautiful, and it is beautiful. I think it always dials back to me to finding the best provider for you, finding the best location that feels right for you, building your team, and doing what is best for you in the end. So I really am so excited one minute after the intro to turn the time over to Lily. Okay, Ms. Lily, I really am so excited because I was even texting you the day you were in labor. I don't really know all the details, but I've seen your incredible pictures. Oh my goodness, your pictures are so incredible, and I've heard a little bit from you so I really can't wait. So let's talk. Let's talk about these births.Lily: Okay. Yeah. So every Cesarean story is what starts us off, so I will go with that. But I'm going to try to be fast because I feel like my birth was really long. I have a lot more to say about my VBAC, but I always try to really honor our story in that before we had our beautiful, amazing rainbow baby boy, we also experienced a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy prior to having our son. I lost my right fallopian tube. I always like to be the encourager that you can get pregnant naturally with one fallopian tube. It turns out fallopian tubes are not fixed body parts, so when we got pregnant with our son, I ovulated from the side I didn't have a fallopian tube on, and my other tube was able to come over and grab the egg and sense the ovulation which feels so miraculous.Meagan: So incredible, so incredible. I love that message that you're dropping for our community because I think if someone was in that situation as you know, it could feel very defeating and uncertain.Lily: Yeah, it feels really scary. I remember thinking, "I'm at less than 50% fertility if I've lost one tube," but that's not true. Statistically, it's really pretty equal to people with both fallopian tubes, which is kind of neat.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: After that, I started acupuncture. My sweet friend, Montana, we had been friends for years and she's always been like, "You should come see me." She specializes in women's health and fertility and loss and all the things. I started acupuncture then, and I say that now cause it has continued. I always say I'll never not be a patient of hers ever again because she's the best. I started to do that, and then we got pregnant. we found out we were pregnant on the last day of week of prayer at our church, which was really incredible and just felt like such a tangible miracle. We chose to go with a birth center for our care. We did that because I had a lot of hospital trauma. I just didn't think that a hospital was a safe place for me to have my baby. I'm a big believer that we should birth wherever feels the safest. We went for birth center care and had a great experience at our birth center.We loved our midwives and were really excited for birth. I think I hear so many times as women tell their VBAC stories that often we feel underprepared going into our first birth, and it leads to a cascade. I think I was the birthiest nerd of all. I felt like I was really prepared going into birth. I was excited for it. I had a lot of birth education. I had been a birth podcast listener forever and ever. I just felt really empowered in birth and all the things I was doing, chiropractic care and acupuncture and all the stuff. We did get to 41 weeks, and at my 41-week appointment, my midwives gave me a 3-page-long induction protocol because in our state, we have to transfer at 42 weeks. So it was their, "This is the last-ditch effort when you are 41--", and I can't remember how many days, "we want you to do this big thing." It was a daily schedule. "You're going to wake up and you're going to go for a drive on a bumpy road, and you're going to eat this, and you're going to do this." It was really overwhelming. Meagan: Yeah.Lily: Well, the night before we were supposed to do that protocol, the doula who was on-call at the center was texting me and was like, "Hey, how are you feeling?" I was like, "I don't know. I feel really nervous to do this big long thing." She suggested that I journal out all of my fears about birth and see if that did anything. I journaled all my fears, and I burned it in our kitchen sink. As I walked up the stairs, I had my first contraction. I'm also a huge believer that our emotions play such a huge role in our labors. So I was really stoked that my labor started and all the things. That's the same doula that we had for our next birth too, which is really cool. So yeah, I labored all of that night. It was Friday that I went into labor, that evening. Saturday, I labored. My midwives came and checked in eventually. My doula did come over, did some stuff with me, hung out and helped me labor, did some homeopathy, some emotional release work, and all the good stuff. But my labor was really, really long.So by Sunday, my midwives were like, "Hey, you are super exhausted. We want you to take a Benadryl and try to take a nap." I am a girly who does not take a lot of medicine. So this Benadryl knocked me on my booty. I had six really awful contractions trying to take a nap. After I got back up from the nap, I got back on the toilet which is where I was loving to labor. I stood up because I was like, "Okay, I think maybe things are starting. I'm finally getting a pattern. Maybe I can finally go to the birth center." I stood up, and I checked the pad I was wearing. There was a copious amount of meconium. Not water, but meconium which is scary, you know? I knew right then that I was going to have to transferred. It was thick. It was poop.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Lily: There was no water stained. It was just meconium. And so I called my midwife, and in her sweet midwife voice, I said, "Do I have to transfer?" And she goes, "It's definitely a conversation we have to have." I was like, "Okay. So, yes." She explained that because of the way the meconium came out, she now thought my son was breech because his butt was right up against my cervix, and it just came right out. Soo she came over. Actually, she wasn't even on call. She happened to live in our neighborhood. She came over and checked me and all the things, and she's like, "Yep, this feels really different than a few hours ago. He's definitely breech. We do have to transfer." And so as we're transferring, in my mind, I know that we're probably going to have a Cesarean. My midwives were really great in that they called ahead and they were like, "Hey, we called ahead. No one's willing to do a vaginal breech delivery, or at least they're not trained in it." But my midwives were also really encouraging that, "If this is something you want to do, you have a right to deny a surgery. You have that right. We will be here in support of that." They don't have hospital privileges. They were out-of-hospital midwives, so they had to transfer me. They could go with me and essentially be that emotional support, but we were still kind of in COVID times, so I had to also choose who I wanted to be in there with me. It was 2022. I just felt so defeated. I was so mad that I wasn't going to get the birth that I wanted. I started screaming through contractions. I can confirm that does make it worse. I was just pissed. And so I opted for a Cesarean. It was really tough. I remember as we were leaving my house, asking my midwives, "I can have a VBAC at the birth center, right? Like, you can do VBACs?" They were like, "Yep, but let's get this baby out first." So I transferred. I had my Cesarean. I think it went as smoothly as it could go. I remember there was this a sweet tech who-- I was just in a lot of pain, and she gave me the biggest hug as they put my spinal in and was stroking my back saying, "This is the last one. This is the last one. You can do this." And it was like, "Okay." There was some tenderness there. But post that was a lot of grief, and I think we've all experienced that and a lot of hard. I never saw the surgeon who did my surgery ever again. None of my follow-ups were with her. It was just some random OB. I was so thankful that I had been at the birth center because I got all of their postpartum care, so I had a couple of home visits and a lot of really tender care from my midwives, which was exactly what I needed. And then I found The VBAC Link. I remember finding it on a walk because I had listened to birth podcasts for years, like I said, and suddenly it was grievous to listen to this thing that I loved hurt my feelings to listen to. It was like, "Oh gosh, I don't want to listen to the first-time mom who had an amazing waterbirth, and it was pain-free." It just was grief. Meagan: Right.Lily: So when I found The VBAC Link, I was like, "This is exactly what I needed. This is stories of women that give me hope and not just that trigger jealousy," which I think is a very real and valid emotion.Meagan: Very, very real. Very real and valid.Lily: It's okay to feel that way, but I remember going for all of my postpartum walks and listening to The VBAC Link and crying through every episode and all of the things. And then, just in that postpartum time, I got back into fitness. I have a background in kinesiology and teach a lot of fitness classes. So I got back to the community and finding that, and then I also got to work here which is so fun a year ago in November which is so cool. I think it's really a cute thing that my year anniversary was in November, and that's when I had her, so how cool that I spent a year empowering other women and also getting to plan my own which was really fun. So if you've ever DM'd us on Instagram, you're probably talking to me.Meagan: Yep, yep. She's in there every day a lot of the day because we get a lot of messages. We really do.Lily: And we want to answer all of them. I want you to feel seen and known and all the things. So if you're getting an answer, you're not getting a robot.Meagan: Yeah, you're absolutely not.Lily: You're getting me or Meagan or Olga or Ashley. You're getting one of us which is really neat.Meagan: Yep. Yeah.Lily: Okay. So then we got pregnant again, eventually. So we had planned to start trying when our son was two. We got pregnant a couple months before his second birthday. And again, it was such a redemptive moment of going from having a really hard trying to conceive to me, a girly with one fallopian tube getting pregnant on accident. Are you kidding me? It's crazy. But it was so great. It was really scary at first. We did have some early pregnancy bleeding. We thought we were having another miscarriage. And at the same time, my dad had his appendix rupture, so he was in the hospital septic while I'm early pregnant bleeding. It was just a hellstorm at first and felt really scary. But I knew that I was going for my VBAC, and that was really grounding. I won't share a ton of this journey. My midwife, Paige, and I were on the podcast earlier in 2024, so if you want to listen to that podcast about finding care, but I'll just quickly cover essentially the birth center that I was supposed to be at that I always dreamed would be my redemptive birth again was the same midwives. Oh, Matilda is grabbing my ears.Meagan: Also, the episode is 342 if you want to go back and listen.Lily: Yes. For midwife stuff.Meagan: Yes.Lily: So essentially, my midwives were amazing and I love them, but the birth center just wasn't in our financial capability. They don't take insurance. This time around, it was just not something that we were able to do. I started my care at the birth center and was really grateful to be there because they really knew my story, so they held me through the worry about miscarriage. And then we ended up having to navigate transferring care, so I interviewed another birth center that was in-network with our insurance that was about an hour away. I interviewed my midwife, Paige, and her practice partner, Jess. I told my husband when we went in to interview them, I was so terrified to like these hospital midwives and that I would have a hospital birth. And I did. I fell in love with them. I think that's so important. One thing I get really frustrated with, I think, especially in the more crunchy birth community is that we are often told that hospital birth can't be beautiful and that you can't have a physiological birth in a hospital.Meagan: Yep.Lily: I'm here to tell you that that's wrong. We have to stop telling women that the place that they feel safest is less than in any way. If a hospital is where you end up, then that is incredible and amazing and that's where you should birth if that's what feels right for you and your baby.Meagan: Yeah. It's the same thing with like epidural versus non-epidural. It doesn't matter. You're not any less powerful or strong or amazing if you birth without an epidural versus an epidural or out of the hospital versus the hospital or a planned Cesarean versus not going for a VBAC or if it goes to a Cesarean.We have to start having more love for one another in our community. Even though it might be something really great for one person, and they believe that, and that's okay that they believe that, that doesn't mean it's right for that next person.Meagan: Totally, totally.Lily: Yeah. So we navigated what hospital care was going to look like. At the time, our hospital was under construction, so they were "letting"-- I put that in quotes-- letting you labor in the tub, but you couldn't deliver in the tub at the time. The tubs were home birth tubs that they were blowing up in the rooms and all these things. But by the end of my pregnancy, the low-intervention rooms were open, and they were supporting waterbirths which I think is so neat to see from a hospital. So yeah, we were really excited. This time, I did more acupuncture. I continued to see my amazing acupuncturist. She's amazing. Montana Glenn if you ever need her in northern Colorado. I did switch chiropractors. Last time, I went to just the chiropractor that I'd always gone to. She wasn't Webster-certified. This time, I did go see a Webster-certified chiropractor. Laura is amazing. That really changed a lot of my pelvic pain and things like that.I was way more active in this pregnancy. With my son, I was working at a Barre studio, and the fitness studio closed about halfway through my pregnancy. I kind of just petered off the train of staying active. But with my daughter, we were able to, I say we because she was there. I worked out until the day before I was in labor. I teach spin, strength, and yoga. It's a combo. It's called Spenga. I was there all the time. I did stop on the spin bike at 34 weeks pregnant because I learned that that's not great for baby positioning, and it can shorten some of those ligaments. I stopped doing the spin bike at that point to be really cautious of position. Speaking of that, I had a standard kind of pregnancy. I would talk with my midwife forever and ever. I came in with questions about my birth probably on day one. She was like, "Girl, you're 16 weeks pregnant. Chill, no." But I had questions, and I would come in every time. I did feel like a first-time mom in that sense because the last time, I had a lot of expectations of I knew what the birth center was going to look like, and I had no idea what a hospital labor was going to look like. How many nurses are going to be in my room? Who's going to be up in my space? What does this look like? How do I do intermittent monitoring and all the things? Paige was great about, my midwife, saying, "Hey, this is what the hospital protocol is. Hospital protocol is not a law. You get to do what you want to do, and we support you in that." She was awesome. At 32 weeks, though, Matilda was breech which was really scary as a mama who had a surprise breech baby. I did all the things. If you want to know all of those things, we have an Instagram Live that is saved on our page of literally the kibosh of things that I did for flipping her. We did flip her. I also saw a bodyworker in town and a doula who's amazing. Her name is Heather Stanley, and she's the breech lady here in northern Colorado. I did some bodywork and stuff with her and worked through emotional stuff and birth stuff. It was, I think, really what I needed. Heather said that in our session, and I kind of rolled my eyes. She's like, "I think sometimes babies go breech because we've got some stuff to process." And I think that I did. I thought I processed. I went to therapy after my Cesarean. I did all the things, but I still had some stuff. I think she was teaching me, like, "Hey, let's work through this now."Meagan: Yeah, I mean, I had the same thing with Webster. He kept flipping breech. I had never had a breech baby before, but I was like, "If I have to have a C-section because you're breech, I've done all the things." I was really frustrated. We'd get him to flip, and then he'd go back. My midwife was like, "We need to stop." And I believe that it was the same thing. I needed to work through some things. He needed to be in those positions during that time for whatever reason. We had to gain more trust in our bodies and our abilities and processing. Right?Lily: Yeah, totally. So yeah, so then she flipped, and it was great. And then I just felt so seen by Paige in all of it, because she knew like, "Hey, when you get to the hospital, we'll check with an ultrasound and double-check that she's still head down because I know that's anxiety-inducing for you." I just felt so empowered with all of our decision-making. It felt like a big partnership. One thing that I struggled with with my son was I was at home laboring for 44 hours. I never got to go to the birth center. What I loved is this time, it was my call when I got to go to the hospital. It was my decision, all of it. Paige was so great about saying, "Hey, this is your labor, and we're here to make this happen." I just think she's such a unique human. I don't think care always looks like this in a hospital for sure, but it can. What if we advocated for what we deserve, you know?Meagan: Just talking to her, I love her. I love her so much, and I one day hope to meet her in person.Lily: She's the greatest human being. I tell her all the time, I'm like, "You're changing the world, and so many women need you." Actually, their practice was at one point so full of VBAC patients that they've had to unfortunately turn a couple of people away because their practice is getting full which is really amazing, though.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: And we need that.Meagan: It's a good thing. Yeah.Lily: Yeah. So super cool. All right, I think we've got labor coming. Here we go. I never felt pressure of when am I going to go into labor or any of that. Paige was super great about, like, "Hey, if you're dilated before labor, that's great. If not, whatever. Most people dilate while they're in labor," and it was just super helpful. I knew that there was no worry about when I would go into labor. There was no worry about just any of that stuff. So it was really nice to just be at peace. That's one of the reasons that I actually loved having a hospital provider because I had a lot of anxiety about transferring from a birth center again. Actually, as I tell my story, I think I would have been a transfer again. I remember them saying that in my initial consult appointment. Jess, who practices with Paige, said, "You know, what's beautiful about hospital care is that we can induce you if you need to be induced, and we have the hospital privileges, and you can have the interventions if you need them." And I did. Spoiler alert, and it was great. I got to 40 and 1. I started contractions around 11:00 PM on Tuesday night. I was already felt like it was such a blessing because I finally had contractions that were normal. I didn't have contractions like that with my son. They started out fast and furious and they were seven minutes apart or less my whole 44 hours. With this, I felt the wave of a contraction for the first time. And I remember texting my doula like, "This is already so redemptive just that I can like breathe through a contraction. This is nuts. This is so cool." There were a couple that I had to get on all fours in my bed and sway back and forth and eventually, my husband like leaned over and he was like, "You need to go to sleep. What are you doing?" I was like, "I'm having contractions." And he's like, "Oh." So it was fun. I texted my doula and just said, "Hey, I think I'm in labor," which was weird for me to say. And again, what's so great is Jessie, my doula, had been with us in our first birth and she's also a VBAC mom. It was just like God had His hands on exactly what we needed and the people that we needed even from our first birth to carry into our second. So on Wednesday, Jesse also lives in our neighborhood now, so that's fun. She came over, and we went for a walk. We did some homeopathy, and she gave me a great foot massage, and then she said, "Okay, hey. Let's try to pick things up a little bit. I want you to take a nap with your knees open." She's like, "We don't have a peanut ball," so I grabbed the triangle pillow from my kid's nugget couch. It works really well by the way. I napped with that between my legs and was able to get things to pick up a little bit. My contractions did get pretty intense, but they were still spread out. She went home for a little bit, and then I took a nap and labored. I went downstairs. We live multi-generationally, so my parents live in our basement in a basement apartment. My niece also lives with us. They have custody of her. My parents have a way cooler shower than I do because they got to customize their basement. I went down and took a shower in their shower which has three shower heads and all the stuff. I was like, "This is like a being at a birth center." So I hung out in their shower. I took a two-hour shower. My mom's like, "Our water bill is going to be insane."Meagan: How did you have hot water long enough?Lily: We have that-- I don't know what it's called.Meagan: Reverse osmosis thing?Lily: I don't know.Meagan: I don't even know. That's not the water heater. Lily: I don't know what we have. I don't know what it's called. Anyway, we did have hot water. Meagan: That's amazing, though. Lily: I was just in there chilling and music on and lights off. When I could get into the mental space of labor, my contractions would come way closer together, and things would intensify. But if I did the advice of living life, it was like they just stayed really far apart. So I was like, "I know that some of this is prodromal labor a little bit because I'm not getting into consistency unless I'm forcing myself to be there."So amongst all of this, my husband is not feeling well. I'm looking at him like, "You seem sick." My husband never gets sick. And he's like, "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." And I was like, "No, I think that you should go get tested for something." Something in my gut was like, "You need to go in." So he went and got swabbed for the flu and all the things, and he had strep. And so I was like, "See? Good thing that we got you tested." So he started antibiotics right away. And then that night, my sweet doula came and spent the night because Jared was just not up for being a labor support and yay for having a doula because I needed someone to be there physically with me, and I needed that support, but he couldn't be there in that moment.Meagan: Wow, what an incredible doula. I love hearing that. Yeah.Lily: So she came and spent the night, and we did some like side-lying releases, which from my first labor, I knew I was going to hate it. It's just the position that, to me, is just the absolute worst when I'm in labor. It's awful. My doula was like, "Hey, so we should do some of that." And I was like, "No, we're not. I don't want to." She was like, "I think we should then."So we did some of that, and then eventually, she drifted off to sleep. My contractions again, were still staying spread out. They would get close together and then they'd fizzle. But they were intense, and that's what's hard is you think prodromal labor, and at least in my brain, it's like, "Oh, contractions are mild and really far apart," but that's just not how they were for me. They were really intense. Meagan: They can be. Eventually, I went upstairs and took a bath because I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to force them to shut down then." I need some rest. So I went and took a bath upstairs, and got them to slow down enough that I could sleep for the rest of the night.Meagan: Good.Lily: That was Wednesday, and like I said, my labor was long. On Thursday, we woke up. My doula was here with me. We made breakfast, and she forced me to eat protein. Yay, doulas. I had already a scheduled appointment that day for my 41-week or whatever it was. 40 weeks, I guess. We went into the clinic and my contractions were, I mean, maybe 30 minutes apart at this point. I remember we drove all the way. My clinic is 20 minutes for my house. We drove all the way there, and I didn't have a contraction in the car. I was like, "Okay." So we went. I was 4 centimeters dilated and 90% effaced. I did ask for the membrane sweep, but I asked for the cervical check. Not one time ever did I get a check that was like, "Hey, we should check you now." It was like, "Hey, I want to be checked now."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: It was so empowering. So 4 centimeters. She was like, "You know what? You're doing it. Yes, prodromal labor, sure, but also, your body's making progress. You're doing something."Meagan: But also not prodromal. It was a prodromal pattern and acting that way, but progressing. So, it was on the cusp.Lily: Yeah. It was weird but encouraging to hear that, okay. I've done a day and a half work. Yeah. But at this point, I'm like, ticking in my brain, like, "Okay, how long has this been?" Because my first labor was 44 hours, and I was 10 centimeters when we transferred to the hospital. I had told myself my whole pregnancy, "I can do anything as long as it's less than 44 hours." It was not. It was not. Spoiler alert. So we went home, and then my sweet chiropractor actually lives in our neighborhood. I texted her and was like, "Hey, I don't know if this is a positional thing. She feels really low and engaged, but can you come adjust me?" So she came and brought her table to my house and adjusted me. She did this thing called adductor stripping.Meagan: Oh.Lily: And so I had done an actual membrane sweep with my midwife, and then my chiropractor took her knuckles and went on my inner thighs and pushed all down. It hurt so bad.Meagan: I'm doing it to myself barely, and I'm like, oh.Lily: It was awful. But she was like, "This is the big hip-opener thing." So we did that. She even taught my doula how to do it. I looked at my doula and I said, "You're not doing that to me. So glad you learned you can do it to another client, not me." My doula went home again. I got back in the shower and was moving around. And at 4:00, I decided like, "Okay, I'm exhausted. I am ready for a change." I am the type of person who likes to go somewhere and do something. It's part of why I didn't ever feel like a home birth was the right option for me because I know that I get stuck in a space. I like the idea of going somewhere to have my baby. It felt like a good change. So I was ready, but I wasn't having contractions that were there. And I was like, "I also don't want to go to the hospital and be stuck there for a million years." So I decided to go upstairs and put myself into labor. I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing this." I turned off all the lights, and started to labor, and my mom came up and gave me a back massage. It was also cool to see her shift because in my first labor, she was super anxious. And then in this labor, she was really trusting of my process and was more just like, "Hey, what do you need?" So she gave me a really big back massage, and I listened to music, and I finally got my contractions to six minutes apart. I texted my midwife and I said, "If these stay this way for an hour, I want to come because I am exhausted. I'm ready for a change. I need this." And she's like, "Great, awesome. Let me know. Keep me posted." So I did have some bloody show, and I thought maybe my water broke. It had been an hour, and I was like, "Hey, we're going." My mom had just made dinner, so I'm scarfing meatloaf on my way out the door. Great last meal.Meagan: I love it.Lily: And then we head to the hospital. I got to the hospital, and I was 4.5, maybe a 5. So again, earlier that day, I had been a 4. So I had made a little bit of progress, but not a ton. But Paige was great. She's like, "Great, you're here." What I love about their practice is their direct admittance, so you don't have to go through triage and have some sort of evaluation to decide if you're supposed to be there or not. She was the one who made that call, and we made it in partnership with each other. I was like, "I feel like I need to be here." She's like, "Great, you're here."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: And so I chose no IV and to do intermittent monitoring which will come up in my story in a little bit, but that's kind of where I was. We started to fill up the tub, and I was laboring in the tub, and then I started to get nauseous and throwing up and all the things. In my head, I'm like, "I'm in transition. This is very transitiony." I'm watching as the baby nurse comes into my room and starts to set up the bassinet. I'm starting in my head to tell myself, "I'm so close. I'm in transition. This is happening." And as I talked to my doula afterward, she was like, "Yeah, we all thought you were in transition, too, dude. You were in it." I started to get frustrated and say, "I want to push." Not that I felt pushy, but I was just like, "I want, again, a change. I want to have a baby." And so I asked for another check, and I was 6.5 centimeters. I cursed so much, and I was like, "I just want to have my effing baby." I screamed that so loud. My poor, sweet doula and midwife. They dealt with my sass, and it's like my body knew, "Okay, we're defeated now." Everything shut down. My contractions spread apart to 20 minutes apart again. They had been 5 minutes. My mental space was not ready, and my body was like, "Okay, we're going to rest." Meagan: Yeah. Lily: And so I get out of the tub and dry off, and we decide that I'll do a little bit of pumping. My midwife put some clary sage all over my belly, and she does try. I asked to rupture my membranes because we thought maybe they had not ruptured when I thought they did. She was like, "They're definitely intact." She goes, "Nice protein intake girly because these are hard, and I can't rupture them." She's like, "You have a really strong bag of water." And I said, "Thanks, Needed, for all of the amazing collagen that I took."Meagan: I was going to say, collagen protein right there.Lily: I'm terrible at protein intake, so really the collagen from Needed was one of the strongest ways I got protein in during my pregnancy. So pat on my back for my protein intake and things to need.Meagan: Very, very good job. Very impressive. Well, because really, a strong bag of water, it is hard to get that protein and that good calcium in. It really is. To the point where she can't even break it, that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Good job. Lily: Yeah. So then at this point, it's later in the evening, like 9:00 or 10:00. And so I started to just be exhausted. I started falling asleep between contractions. My doula is like, "We're going to wind down. Let's turn the music just to instrumental. I'm going to go take a nap." Our birth photographer is napping on the floor. Paige goes and takes a nap, and they tell my husband to curl up next to me.That was such a sweet moment of disc connection that I needed of, "This is my person and we're here. We're doing this together." We snuggled up on the bed and got through contractions together all night long. I did at one point ask to try the nitrous oxide because, in my head, that was the only pain relief that I could think of that was available to me in this low intervention room because the way that the hospital works is if you're not going to have a waterbirth, if you decide to get an epidural, they will transfer you out of this room because there are two of them, and at that point, you can't use the tub. So I was like, "Okay, I think nitrous might be my only option." So I tried that. It sucked.Meagan: You didn't like it.Lily: She was like, "You know, it's really not helpful for people that are coping with contractions well." And she said the same thing when I started asking about an epidural later on. She was like, "You're coping well, and you're relaxing." These types of things can be really helpful for people that are in the fetal position in between their contractions, but you're not, so it's probably not actually going to help because you're already relaxed. All it did was make me feel a little dizzy,  and then I was like, "Well, this is silly." I got in the shower again there. It was not as good as my parents' shower, so I did get right out of the shower. It was very cold. And so the next morning, now it's Friday. So reminder, labor started on Tuesday. Meagan: Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Now we're here. Lily: Thursday morning. And so Paige comes in, and we had a really long talk about options. At this point, I am mad, and I'm just feeling like I can't do it. I keep having contractions and saying, "I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore." In my head, I'm like, "Well, at least I'm going to get a VBAC. Hopefully, I can get an epidural," and then rest and those stories. I'm trying to be really open-handed because I think that's what you have to be in birth is really surrender to the process. Paige comes up with this idea to do some therapeutic rest to which I had never heard of before. I think I was texting you during this and I was like, "What is that?" She's like, "We can give you some morphine. You can either stay here at the hospital or you can go home, and hopefully, you'll nap for 4 or 5 hours. Typically, people wake up in active labor." I was like, "Sweet, sounds awesome. Give me that nap." My doula was like, "Why don't we go for a walk, first? Let's remind ourselves that it's daytime. Let's go on a walk. We'll talk about it together, and then we can come up and do our next steps." So we went out for a walk in the parking lot of the hospital. It was cold, and I threw up a couple of times. Yay. I was like, "I think I really need this. I can't continue to do this without any progress." She's like, "Great, I'm excited for you." So we went up, and they put an IV in cause I didn't have an IV. What was great was that the hospital staff was so accommodating. I was really nervous about nurses being like, "Hey, we don't like this," or whatever. Paige was also great about choosing my nurses to be the ones that are going to be more supportive. But they put an IV in. They gave me the morphine, and then they took it out. I didn't just then have an IV.We did that, and then we decided we would break my water and try to get things progressing. She did end up being able to break my water because I could sit still. I was way more relaxed with the morphine. It was supposed to be a 4-hour nap. I woke up 20 minutes later. We had sent my doula off to go run errands thinking that we had hours. I wake up 20 minutes later with really intense contractions that are peeking through the morphine, and they're super close together. I was like, "Well, crap. Let me call my doula back and get her to come back." And so that really picked things up again. It was kind of discouraging because I was expecting to get to rest, and then to have intense contractions again was like, "Oh gosh, okay. Here we go." But we did it. We labored the whole day doing that, but my contractions would never get closer than 5 minutes apart. They would stall out at that space. At 2:30ish, I asked about morphine again because I was like, "Can we do that again? If that was an option, can we try that again?" The nurses were like, "Hey, we actually think maybe you should just do some IV Fentanyl." My older brother is an addict, so I am someone who was super cautious. I had actually said it when I got there that my preference is no opioids. But this felt like, "Okay, maybe it's an option." When Paige came in and we talked a little bit, she was like, "Why don't we do that? And would you be open to doing a low dose of Pitocin?" And I was like, "Absolutely not," because in my brain, Pitocin means epidural. Pitocin is scary and hard. My contractions are already intense. I can't imagine Pitocin. Like, absolutely not. And so Paige said, "Hey, what's cool is you're already in active labor, so Pitocin is not likely going to make your contractions more intense. It will likely bring them closer together.Meagan: It's what you might need.Lily: "You might be able to wait it out, or this might be an option. Let's do the pain medicine so that you feel mentally like you can handle it." I was like, "Okay." So they placed another IV because I didn't have one in, and they gave me Pit. We started at 2 at 3:30, and then we upped it to a 4 at 4:00.Something that I will mention while I have the IV thought in my brain is I had said I was doing intermittent monitoring, and I ended up hating that. I was just irritated by people coming into my space. It felt like it interrupted my labor pattern. They had to reach down into the water if I was in the tub. I was moving, and I felt like I couldn't move or they wouldn't get it. They were just in my space a lot more. So when we started the Pitocin, the hospital policy was continuous monitoring, but they have the wireless monitors that are waterproof. They were like, "Do you feel okay with that?" I said, "Yeah, I think so, actually. I think I'm ready for people to stop touching me," because at one point, I looked at a nurse and I was like, "I understand why this is important and why you're here to check on my baby. Please go away." I hated it, but I also felt like I wanted some sort of monitoring.Meagan: I can see that though.Lily: Yeah, it was just disruptive. It's funny because in my brain, I thought that the continuous monitoring would feel disruptive, but it was great because they just put these two little dots on me. I had a belly band that went over. They were wireless. I could still move all around. It was great. Meagan: That's nice.Lily: Yeah. So at this point, I'm hooked up to Pit on the little IV pole, but I can still go wherever I want. I decided to go labor in the bathroom. This is the part of my labor that gets a little fuzzy. I was really thankful to have had a conversation with my acupuncturist prior to labor because she had a great labor experience, but she was actually a home birth hospital transfer too. She had talked about how I had said, "I don't want to do medication because I want to be really present. There's so much of my son's birth that I don't remember because of the medication." She had told me, "Hey, there is a place sometimes in labor land that your body just naturally goes fuzzy, so don't be taken aback if that's your experience." That was really helpful to know that in this transition time, things feel a little fuzzy, but I'm at peace with that versus my son's birth where it felt invasive to not have those memories.Meagan: Yeah.Lily: So we were laboring in the bathroom, and then I remember at one point yelling for Paige because my doula is in there with me. I was like, "I'm feeling pushy and ring of fiery." She's like, "Okay." We came out of the bathroom. They unhooked me from the Pitocin. They did keep the hep lock in. And again, they were really respectful and asked like, "Hey, since we've already been doing Pit, we've already put two in. Do you mind if we keep the hemlock? And we'll wrap you up. You can do whatever you want." And I was like, "That's fine. It's already there. Let's not bruise up my arm anymore." We came out, and I was laboring on all fours. I had gotten sick of the tub, and I had actually said, "I don't want to be in the tub anymore," at some point during the day, because this thing that was so great, and it is helpful, but every time I get in, I get discouraged because my contractions pick up. But then, it seems like I have to get out. My doula is looking at me, and she's like, "Hey, are you sure you don't want to get in the tub?" This was your goal. This was your goal. Are you sure?" I'm laboring on all fours, and I'm feeling pushy, and she's like, "We can fill up the tub so fast. Do you want us to just fill it up? This was your goal. Are you sure?" I was like, "Okay, yeah. Fill up the tub." The one other thing that I think was funny is that I was wearing a really ugly bra because I had had two black bras that I really wanted to wear, and they had gotten wet over two days of being at the hospital. I looked at her, and I was like, "I'm wearing my ugly bra." She was like, "Change." So my birth photographer ran over and grabbed my black bra that I wanted to have on, and I changed really fast which was really funny, and then hopped in the tub and started to just labor there. My doula and midwife coached me to wait for the fetal ejection reflex. So they were like, "If you can just breathe through these contractions, let's wait and see if your body just starts to push." I was like, "Okay, I guess we'll be here." I was in this really deep, low squat. I have 20 years of dance in my history. I teach Barre. I'm on one tippy toe. Paige told me after, "I have never almost broken a mirror trying to get so low to see what was going on because you were in such a low squat." I did deliver my daughter on my tippy toes. It was like, if I put my heel down, it hurt more. I don't know why, but my tippy toes felt great. Meagan: Interesting. Like pointe in ballet?Lily: Standing on my tippy toes.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goshLily: Yeah. I was in a lunge with one leg up on a tippy toe.Meagan: With bent toes, yep.Lily: I was laboring there, and these contractions felt different, which again, is so cool to have gotten to experience. At this point, Fentanyl wears off after 30 minutes, and so I really feel like it was perfect because I got it for the hard Pitocin part, which actually wasn't bad at all, by the way. It was exactly what Paige said. It just got them closer together. They didn't hurt anymore.Meagan: Increase, yeah.Lily: Yeah, it was awesome. So I highly recommend if you need it at the end to know that it probably won't increase intensity. It just can help. I was fully unmedicated at this point. I would feel the beginning of my contraction. I could breathe through. And then when that fetal ejection reflex hits, man, it is crazy. I had heard someone describe it as the feeling of when you have to throw up and you just can't stop. That is exactly what it feels like. Now I'm pushing.My body just did it by itself, and I didn't have to worry about, "Okay, how do I breathe? How do I do?" There was no counting. I pushed for 52 minutes on my tippy toes. It was so cool. My husband really wanted to catch her, and so he was right there. He'll joke forever that I bruised his hand in labor because I was death-gripping it.I remember feeling the ring of fire and all of the things. And then she just came out and her whole body came out with her head, and it just felt like the biggest relief in the world of, whoo. And then I grabbed her. So Jared's like, "You kind of stole my thunder." I was just so excited, so both of us had our hands on her and got to bring her up to my chest. What we realized is I had a really short chord. The theory is that so much of my labor was probably held back because she didn't have a lot of bungee room to descend. It kind of explained a couple of things. Yeah. She was on my chest in the tub and hanging out. And then we got off and got to the bed, and she was hanging out on my chest. And then as the cord stopped pulsing, she forgot to breathe.Meagan: Oh.Lily: And so they had to cut the cord really quickly, take her off my chest, and take her over to the warmer, and she was fine. They called in the neonatalist and all of the things, and she did eventually just come back to me after I had delivered the placenta, but that was the only scary moment. The theory is that she was still relying on the cord, and then it stopped pulsing, and she was like, "Oh shoot, I need to breathe now. Got it. Okay."Meagan: Yeah.Lily: It was great. I got to see my placenta, and I did have a marginal cord which we knew, which is when your cord is kind of off to the side of your placenta. Again, we knew that my whole pregnancy, and it was never like, "This is going to prevent you from having a VBAC" conversation. But yeah, we got to do the thing and catch a baby, and it was just the coolest thing ever. I can look back and say gosh, yeah. I probably would've been a transfer because of how long my labor was. I'm so thankful that I took the interventions when I needed them and that I had a provider who I trusted was in my corner. Never once did I think, "Oh, she's recommending this so that it goes faster," or "Ohh, she's" bothered or anything. And Paige actually had specialed me in that she wasn't on call that night, but she came in for me which was really special. I don't know. I never expected that I would have a hospital birth. I never expected that I would have Pitocin or pain medication or any of the things and yet feel so at peace with how it played out. It was absolutely beautiful and absolutely physiological in all of the ways that it needed to be.So that was her birth.Oh my goodness. I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy. I can just close my eyes, and I can see your picture. So many feels and such a long journey. Such a long journey for you to keep shifting gears. But going back into your team and all the relationships that you established working up to these days and this moment, you had all of those people come into your labor too, at some point whether it was mentally thinking about something that they had said or they physically came down the street and we're able to serve you and touch you and adjust you and work with you that way. There were so many things along the way that it's like, wow. You should be so proud of yourself for building that team, for getting the education, for having this big different experience, and for trusting your instincts. I do think in the VBAC world, in all birth world, but for the VBAC world, we do sometimes get into this, "Oh, Pitocin can be bad. Epidurals can be bad. Hospitals can be bad. This can be bad," You know, all of these things, and a lot of the times it's based on negative experiences that one has had.Lily: Or stories that you hear.Meagan: Or stories that we hear, yes. Because, I mean, how many stories have we heard about the cascade? Lily: Absolutely.Meagan: We've heard so many. But like you said, these things needed to come into your labor at the points that they did, and they served you well. When you said that you didn't expect to have these experiences, and then find them healing and positive, but I truly believe when we are making the decisions in our birth experience, when we have our birth team that we trust and know are there for us, for us, and in our corner, like Paige is and was, it's very different.Lily: It makes a world of difference.Meagan: It's very different. I mean, I have had clients where I've had providers actually say with their words, "I like to manage my labors. I like to manage my labors." So if we hear that, and then we hear the experience, you guys don't do those things because they led down a negative path. But those are so different, and so we need to remind ourselves as we're listening to stories about Pitocin and epidurals or hospitals, have a soft part in your heart for them because you never know. They may be something that you need or want in your labor. Lily: Totally.Meagan: And if we can have the education about those things and then make the choice that feels right for us in our labor, I mean, here you are saying these things. You're saying these words. "I had these experiences. I experienced Pitocin. I experienced Fentanyl that I didn't know I wanted. I had all these things, and it was great."Lily: It was beautiful. Yeah. And Paige was like, "I've never seen someone dilate to a seven with such an irregular contraction pattern."Meagan: Yes. Yeah.Lily: What I love is that a couple of days before I went into labor, someone had posted this quote. We posted it just recently to our page, but it was from the Matrescense podcast. And it says, "For every birth video that you watch where a woman calmly breathes her baby into the world, make sure you watch one where she begs, pleads for, swears, doubts, and works incredibly hard to meet her baby." I know I cried.Meagan: That just gave me the chills.Lily: "So that if that is your experience, you are not caught off guard by the intensity of birth." I had seen that before I went into labor. Someone posted it in The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. And that is exactly my experience. I screamed and I begged and I roared. Oh my god. There was no quiet breathing during my pushing. My throat was sore the next day so much so that I had them swab me for strep because my husband had strep and I was like, "Did I get strep?" But my throat was just raw from screaming. Not screaming. I would call it roaring because I wasn't high-pitched screaming. It was just the natural, primal thing.Meagan: Guttural roar.Lily: It doesn't make it less than. It was pretty dang cool. So, yeah, so that was all the things. And then in this postpartum experience, it's been so great. Paige is awesome. We've been chatting over the phone, and we had a two-week postpartum visit. I just have the best community. I feel a deep sense of gratitude for the community that I have this time compared to my first and sweet friends who literally right before I came on were like, "Hey, update. How are you? What's going on? How's Tilly? What do you need?" That community has made a huge difference, too. And also, I feel like I could run a marathon because I didn't have a C-section, you know? Holy cow.Meagan: Yeah, your recovery is feeling a lot better. Lily: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I was super active prior to having her, so I think that helps too, you know?Meagan: Yeah.Lily: Just feeling that strength is there and resilient. So, yeah.Meagan: Oh, my gosh. I love you. I'm so happy for you. Seriously, I can't wait to even go back and re-listen to this once it airs. You're just incredible. You're such a ray of sunshine. And truly, it is an honor to have you here on our VBAC Link team and then to be part of this story. You had said before that you haven't really even shared it in this entirety, and so I feel tickled that I get to be one of the first to hear it in its entirety.Lily: Well, thank you, friend. It's an honor to be on the team to get to hold space for everyone else's stories, and I have a squeaky baby, but it is just a joy and a dream to get to be here. So thanks for holding space for all of us who have needed it for years. We love you.Meagan: Oh, I love you back, and thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Join Susan on our podcast today as she shares her journey to a beautifully empowering CBA3C! Susan had three C-sections that didn't have anything to do with her body. They just happened to be circumstantial. All three of her births had been traumatic emotionally and did not go how she wanted at all. As far as making decisions for herself and doing what she really wanted to do, that was not present. But with her fourth baby, Susan had a lot of firsts. It was the first time that she was really able to voice what she wanted. She was able to make decisions out of peace and being educated instead of making decisions out of fear and being told what to do. That was the first truly empowering step in her process.Our mission at The VBAC Link is to make all births after difficult Cesareans better, and Susan's episode shows exactly that. Coterie Diaper Products, Code VBAC20 for 20% Discount How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is Megan, and I am joining you with my friend Susan. Hello, Susan. How are you?Susan: Hi Meagan. I'm doing great. How are you doing?Meagan: I am so great. You are from South Carolina, and at the time we're recording, even though this is now going to be in February, South Carolina has had crazy weather. How has everything been with you guys?Susan: Everything has been great. We're actually extremely blessed with the area that we are in. Initially, I thought it was something to talk about because I had a tree fall in the back of my house, but once I saw everything else going on in the area and just seeing the devastation that people had gone through, we are incredibly blessed with, the minimal damage with it just being a tree.Meagan: And this was Hurricane Helene?Susan: Hurricane Helene. Yeah. So all of our neighbors are pretty rough right now, so keep them in your prayers and help out where you can.Meagan: Seriously? Oh, we will be. We're actually recording right now in October, and today is the day that Florida is scheduled to be hit with another really crazy hurricane. So, yes.Susan: I've been thinking of Florida non-stop too.Meagan: Seriously, if you guys are listening, even though this is in February, oh my goodness, I hope all is well and everybody is okay.We do have our Review of the Week, so I definitely want to get into that before you share your four CBAC stories. We have people question, "Why is it called The VBAC Link, but then you share CBAC stories?" But I think the solid straight answer is because not every birth ends in a vaginal birth, and not everything always goes as planned. And you know what? Also, sometimes VBAC isn't desired, and CBAC is something that we don't want to forget about. In fact, if you didn't know, we have a CBAC Link Community. We have The VBAC Link Community on Facebook, and we also have a CBAC Link Community which is just the most amazing group as well. It's actually run by Paige, our transcriber, who I absolutely adore and just had her fourth Cesarean, which was a Maternal Assisted Cesarean. I still can't even believe all of those things happened. It's so amazing. But you guys, if you are looking for a CBAC support group, go to The CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and we'll make sure you get in. We have a review. It is by Jamie Poor. It says, "The absolute best." Thank you. That is so sweet. It says, "After having a scheduled C-section in 2016 for my son being breech, he flipped between 38 and 39 weeks, so he came as quite as a shock. I knew I wanted to VBAC for my next birth. Fast forward to 2019, my second pregnancy with our daughter, I found your podcast and obsessively listened to every single episode. It motivated me and educated me leading up to my due date. It even made me look forward to my long commutes to work. I hired a doula. I drank red raspberry leaf tea, ate the dates, did the Spinning Babies and really did all the things. And guess what? With the help and the education and advice provided on this podcast, I got my VBAC. I learned how to ask for what I wanted and advocate for myself with my doctor and when my body cooperated and went into labor, I felt prepared. My daughter was born in January 25, 2020, and I have to say her labor, delivery, and birth was the most healing, empowering experience of my life. Thank you, ladies, for providing this podcast for all women preparing for birth." Thank you so much, Jamie Poor, for your review, and congratulations on your amazing, empowering birth experience.Women of Strength, no matter how you birth, we want you to have a better experience. That is our goal here at The VBAC link to make birth after Cesarean better. A lot of first Cesareans are unexpected, undesired, unplanned, and do sometimes bring trauma. That doesn't mean even future Cesareans have to have trauma or be unplanned or be unprepared for. We want to learn all the ways we can make birth after Cesarean better no matter how that ends. Okay Susan, ending that review, we were just talking about no matter how birth ends. When you filled out your form, there was something that you said that things sometimes don't go as planned, but learning how to advocate for yourself and know that every birth is different is going to leave you feeling better. So I'm excited for you to share your four stories with us today, and I am excited to hear how you learned and grew and had better experiences with each one.Susan: Okay, so the first birth, I was 19. I was really young, and I didn't know a whole lot about birthing in general. I just did what I was told. I went to the hospital. I did what the white-coat man told me to do, and I didn't question anything. I was just a good patient all the way around. I had an amazing birth. I walked 8 miles before my induction date because I was a week over just trying to get things going and nothing was going. But you know how they are at the hospital. You know, as soon as you hit that 40-week mark, they want something to happen as soon as possible. So around, 41 weeks, I went "overdue" according to the medical standards. I went into the hospital and was super excited. They started the Pitocin drip, and my baby did not respond to that well at all. I was actually watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and I was laughing so hard while the Pitocin was going that his heart rate actually dropped to zero, his fetal heart rate. I remember all of the nurses came rushing in. They were freaking out, and they were pulling on stuff and readjusting me. It was really scary. They stopped the Pitocin and then they restarted it, and then it happened again. So his fetal heart rate dropped scarily low two times. The doctor came back in and he said, "You have two options. You can probably go home and labor for days and days and days, or don't know how long it's going to be."Meagan: He made it sound hard though.Susan: Yeah. He made that sound not appealing at all. And then he said, "Or we can just go to the back and get a C-section and get this baby out." And I was like, "Let's do the C-section. Let's get him out asap," because I was just scared, and I was young, and I just wanted him to be okay. So we went back for the C-section, and it was a perfect recovery. I didn't really think much of it. I was just glad that I had a healthy baby.The second birth came along, and I was actually in a pretty tough situation at the time. I was faced with a choice of what am I going to do with my pregnancy? A choice that many women face. Whenever you're not in the most ideal spot to have a child at the time, no decision is easy. The decision that I chose for myself at that time was to do an adoption. I chose to go the adoption route. Whenever they had asked me about what I would want to do as far as the birth goes, I was just thinking of the adoptive parents and what would be best for them. It was a completely sacrificial thing that I did. I didn't think about myself at all or what would be best for my body or my health or anything like that. I just wanted to make sure that his adoptive parents would be there. To assure that, I just elected to have a repeat C-section. Fast forward a little bit later. I'm starting to learn a little bit more about natural birth and what that can mean in a woman's body and the benefits of it. I don't know too much, but I went to my provider on my third birth, and I mentioned, I said, "How would you feel about me trying to have a natural birth?" He just looked at me with disgust, and he was like, "Absolutely not. We're not gonna do that." I just really didn't know too much, and I just felt so defeated and like that really was the only option, and I wanted to do the right thing. I really didn't fight for myself. I think I may have mentioned it to one other person just briefly, and then I just dropped it. That was the third C-section. So at this point, I've had three C-sections that really didn't have anything to do with me or my body not progressing or anything like that. It just happened to be circumstantial. It really wasn't empowering. So far,  all three of my births had been traumatic emotionally and did not go how I really wanted at all. I mean, thank God the three babies were healthy, of course, but as far as me making decisions for myself and doing what I really would want to do, that was not present. So, fourth baby. So the fourth baby, I had a lot of firsts. So it was my first baby with the marriage that I'm in now. It was my first girl, and it was the first time that I was really able to think clearly and be able to voice what I wanted and be able to make decisions out of peace and being educated instead of making decisions out of fear and being told what to do. That was the first step that was super empowering in this process.Meagan: Yeah. I think when you start feeling empowered, that's where it begins, the second you start that. Yeah.Susan: Yep. So I went to my first appointment just to have the pregnancy confirmed. They were just pushing. The only thing they were really doing was making sure I got vaccinated. "Oh, your blood pressure's high, so you're probably at risk for preeclampsia." They're already putting me in all of these little boxes on my first visit. They're telling me to take aspirin because I had high blood pressure. I had high blood pressure, a lot of it due to white-coat syndrome just due to the trauma of being in the hospital. I was completely not at peace. I hated being there. I did not want to be at that doctor's office. And so I got in the car and I immediately am talking to my husband. We call his cousin because he comes from a family where it's really common to have home births and to use midwives and to use alternative ways. I was so blocked off that I really just couldn't see, but we started talking to his cousin and she was telling me, "No, this is actually totally possible. I know some midwives who are able to do it." I'm still clenching up with fear, but I want to let it go. I'm on Google and I'm like, "vaginal births after C-sections three times", and your podcast was actually the first one to pop up. I went on there, and I specifically looked up a story that had to do with a woman having a vaginal birth after three C-sections.  I just started to listen and my heart started to open and the fear started to dissipate. I was like, "I can do this. I can at least make a huge attempt to do it." And so I started to call different midwives and see what their availability was like. A good portion of the midwives don't want to work with you if you've had over three C-sections because they're contracted with the hospitals and are contracted with the state in some way to where they can't legally do that. It was really hard because I called around and called around, and either they weren't available or they just couldn't do it. But I finally found a midwife that was willing to work with me. Me and my husband met with her, and we sat down and talked. It was the first time I had ever had a conversation with "providers" where they actually believed in me, and they believed in my body, and they believed in my ability to give birth. It just meant so much to me to be looked at as a human and as a woman that can do this and not just as a patient who you want to push through and make money on and just get the C-section and be done and not have any risk involved. But there is risk involved having a C-section after three C-sections. There's risk doing it any way, and it's just like, what risk do you want to take?Meagan: Yeah. It's interesting, but what you were saying, "I just wanted someone to sit me down and talk to me like I'm human and have this feeling." I mean, I interviewed multiple providers, and it took me a long time to find that, too. That is what breaks my heart about this community. We have to go into these situations where we're searching for support that feels like a diamond in the rough.Susan: Yeah. And I want to just point out that even though this did end a Cesarean, and we all know that. There's no suspense there. There are so many points along the journey where I did have that healing. I did have that empowerment. It doesn't have to lead to a Cesarean in order to have that healing is what I really want my story to say. You can still make decisions and advocate yourself for yourself in a way where it doesn't necessarily have the VBAC.Meagan: Yes, yes, yes.Susan: Because I'm in the Facebook Community, and I see stories of women being so defeated and so sad when it doesn't end in the VBAC. I just want to inspire people that it doesn't have to be that. The empowerment can come in so many different forms. I was just completely elated after I spoke with her, and I just felt like it was meant to be. I loved her. I loved her energy. She had been a midwife for over 26 years. She had over 1100 home births and not a single maternal death.Meagan: Wow.Susan: Yeah. I just felt totally confident in her, so I went ahead and hired her to be my midwife. Just being able to go to her house and have the prenatal visits was so nice. That was another huge thing that was just amazing and not having to go to the hospital and fight every time. We did all of our prenatals there.She didn't beat around the bush. If there is an issue and I needed to address it, I would address it. I had a little bit of issues with my blood pressure, so I tweaked my diet and I was able to monitor that that way. Towards the end of my pregnancy, I had issues with my hemoglobin being low. I tried everything in the book, by the way, and the thing that helped me, just in case anyone's having issues with their hemoglobin, is I actually froze raw beef liver. I froze it, and then we cut it up into little tablets. I took this raw beef liver every morning because it gives you energy. Don't take it at night before you go to bed because you'll have trouble sleeping. But I took it in the morning and my hemoglobin went from like 9 to 11 within a week which was amazing because nothing else was working.Meagan: Yes.Susan: Yeah.Meagan: And I was going to say that frozen wheatgrass shots is another thing that can help with that. Yeah.Susan: Oh, I did not try that. I said I tried everything, but not that. Meagan: Liver and wheatgrass. Make a delicious smoothie.Susan: The things we do to stay healthy. So, yeah, sometimes people will try to make you feel like you're being irresponsible by not doing it the way that they've been programmed to do it. I'm just saying, it was totally responsible. If not, it was even more responsible because she may have picked up on things and was able to give me advice from a nutritional standpoint which is usually always the issue. It's something to do with your nutrition in your diet that someone in the hospital wouldn't tell me because all they wanted to tell me was to take an aspirin. Yeah.I went over. I was 42 weeks and 4 days, I think.Meagan: 42 weeks and 4 days?Susan: Yes.Meagan: Okay.Susan: So another thing I want to tell people, if you're planning on doing a home birth or doing a natural birth, even if you're planning on going to the hospital, I would recommend saying your due date is actually a month after it actually is to people just so you're not hounded at that like 39, 40-week mark because that was really hard mentally. Especially if you're planning to do a natural birth, it can be such a mental battle especially right there at the end and to have to deal with people know, being like, "Is she here yet? Did you have the baby?" It's just another thing to have to deal with. I would recommend saying it's a month after your actual due date. Yeah. I did absolutely everything you can think of to be the perfect student as far as home birth goes. I read every single book I can think of to prepare you for a natural home birth. I went into HypnoBirthing. I practiced the meditations and the exercises. I had the birth ball. I did all the exercises on the birth ball with my pelvis. I took all the right supplements. I did the pre-birth tincture. I was doing it beyond. People would try to talk to me being like, "You could die. You could bleed out," and I would cut them off. "I'm not having fear-based conversations. I'm not entertaining this. Yes, I'm going to do this because I want to do this. I'm not committed to this to the point of death for me and my child. If something goes awry I have no problem going to the hospital but this is what I'm doing. Leave me alone."Meagan: Good for you.Susan: Yeah. Yeah. So I was really proud of myself because they say it's like preparing for a marathon giving birth. So I really prepared. I had my mucus plug come out around maybe 42 weeks exactly. I was like, "oh my goodness, something's happening," because previously, I haven't experienced any signs of labor. I don't know anything. I've never had a contraction before.Meagan: Right.Susan: Even though this is my fourth child, I have no idea what any of this feels like. So I'm really excited. I'm like, "Wow, this is exciting." Actually, my water broke really shortly after that. I was sitting down on the couch, and I just started having gushes of water and gushes of water. I was talking to my midwife the whole time being like, "This is what's happening. There's so much fluid. There's so much." I had never had my water break before, so that was all new. I was scared. I was excited. She just reassured me. She goes, "No, this is just your water breaking." And she had told me that she's going to treat me like a first-time mom because I never have actually had a baby come through my birth canal. So a lot of times you can expect a long, strenuous labor when it's your first.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: So she said, "Your water has broken. That could either mean that it's going to speed things up and the baby will be here soon, or it could mean there's still a long road ahead." My midwife was really good about keeping my expectations very low as far as when the baby would be here.Meagan: Hey, I think there's something to that. We know that labor sometimes can be slower.Susan: She just didn't want me to stress out about it not happening sooner than later. She was just so good, so calm, so peaceful, and confident. I love her. She's the best midwife ever. I recommend her anytime I hear about people in the area wanting to have a home birth.I was starting to have contractions and then it would be like, go, go, go, and then everything would just stop. Because my water had broken, the chance of meconium was there. I had some meconium in my fluid, but it was yellow. It wasn't a high-alert type of meconium. It was just like, "Okay, we kind of need to get things going." So we talked and we decided to drink some castor oil. So I drank a tincture, the Midwives' Brew if you look it up on Google. I did that.Meagan: A lot of midwives will suggest that.Susan: Yes. So I did that, and it did throw me into really intense labor. We just got things going. I had my contraction timer going, and I had my sister and husband here. I really didn't want many people there at all at my birth. It's just such a private and intimate thing. That was just what I felt comfortable with. It would just be that. It would be a series of contraction after contraction, and then things would die down a little bit. I did every type of position you can think of. I went to the bath. I took baths. There was so much stuff I would do. I even found if I put my feet in really hot water, it would help take away from the pain of the contraction because I hate my feet being hot.Meagan: Oh, okay. Yeah.Susan: It would help me think more about my feet being hot. I would just do anything and everything I could to just help the process and help my body relax. As much HypnoBirthing as you do and as much meditation you do, every birth is different. At that point, I was like, "All of that is BS. All of that is crap." Hey, if it works for some people, great. I really tried to do it, but I had a lot of pain happening no matter what meditations or affirmations I was giving myself. I was talking to my midwife about that too. That's another thing I want to point out is that we all might have this vision of this really peaceful birth where the baby just slides out into your hand and you catch it and yay, everything is great.But also, I just want to everyone to give themselves permission to have a chaotic birth. If that's what your body needs to do, if you need to scream, if you need to shout, if you need to look like a hot mess, if your hair needs to be frazzled, let yourself do that. Sometimes just allowing yourself to let go a little bit can really help. I was laboring for three days.Meagan: Oh wow.Susan: I got to 7 centimeters dilated. I was so happy because my cervix was folded under.Meagan: Folded under?Susan: Yeah. So it was like a posterior cervix.Meagan: Oh, it was posterior.Susan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Meagan: Oh yeah. It starts posterior and through the labor process, it comes anterior and aligns well with the birth canal and opens and dilates and all that. Yeah.Susan: Yes. So, by the time I got to 7 centimeters, that had finally come forward.So we checked myself, and I was 7 centimeters. My cervix had come forward, and I was so happy and I cried for joy. I was like, "This is it. I'm at 7 centimeters. It's go time." And typically, that's when they have-- what do you call it when there's that shift?Meagan: Well, active labor. When active labor kicks in, is that what you were thinking?Susan: Well, I had already been in active labor. But the shift when you're at the final stage, almost? Because you know how labor will get to one stage, and your body will adapt to that, and then it'll get to another stage and another stage?Meagan: So from 6 centimeters on is statistically like that active labor stage.Susan: Okay.Meagan: I'm trying to think of what other word you're meaning, but it turns into active. Transition? is that what you're thinking?Susan: Just the most intense part. Yeah. Maybe.Meagan: Yeah, so you transition into that stage. Susan: Yeah. Okay. So, I did not go into that transition. I stayed at 7 centimeters. And even though I was having extremely hard contractions, they were not productive contractions. There was a point where I was on my toilet because that was my most comfortable place to be. I felt the safest on my toilet because I was scared of pooping. That was a fear of mine, and I wanted to be on the toilet just in case.Meagan: Were you having back and butt labor at all?Susan: I was having some back labor. I mean, it was the most pain, and it was such a journey because  you're in so much pain, and you're like, "Wow, this is the worst thing ever. How am I gonna do this?" And then the contraction goes away, and you're like, "Wow, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to be here. I'm so grateful my baby's almost here." And it's just an emotional roller coaster.Meagan: It is. Yeah.Susan: So nothing was really happening as far as the progressing. My midwife comes to me while I'm on the toilet, and she goes, "All right, Ms. Madam. Let's get your pretty dress on, and let's go for a walk." I looked at her like, "Are you crazy?" But I did it. I got my dress on, and I went for a walk through my neighborhood. I walked probably 2 miles, contracting throughout my neighborhood trying to get something going.Meagan: Wow. Susan: Yeah. And then I come back in the house, and there was two midwives there. One of them said, "If I could do my labor over, I probably would have just walked and walked and walked until the baby got there and would have tried my best not to be scared of the pain or let the pain stop me from really pushing into the contraction." So that's what I did. I started walking circles around my house, and I was telling myself, "No pain is too great to bear for my baby to be here." And I was even talking to my baby like, "Let's do this. Let's go to the next phase." I got to a point where I looked at my midwife, and I just said, "I'm exhausted. I have to lay down." I lay down, and I woke up, and my sister was lying with me. I started to just feel shivery, like really shivery. I started to get chills. It was just like I felt like I had nothing left in me. As soon as the shivers and the chills started, I knew I probably had a fever. I was looking at my sister and I just said, "I really don't feel like I can keep doing this." She said, "Well, is there something else on your mind?" I said, "Yeah, I need to go to the hospital." I'm about to start tearing up. The midwife came in and I just told her. I was like, "I need to go to the hospital. I feel like that the next step is that I just need to get in the car, and if on the way there I change my mind and I want to come back home, I'm going to give myself permission to do that."She goes, "Well, let me just check you, and let's see what's going on." It was 12 hours since my last check. It was 12 hours, and I was still at 7 centimeters. I hadn't progressed at all. I immediately just got out of my bed. I put my dress on. I don't think my husband was quite ready to go, but my midwife was, so I just started walking to her car. I'm like, "I'm going to the hospital now." I just had made up my mind, and that's what we were going to do. It was a very peaceful ride to the hospital. I had my little Depends on. She put a little pad under me. I remember asking her, "So has anyone ever peed in your front seat before?" Everything was just starting to get a little haywire. I just couldn't hold it in at all.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Susan: We were just having a fun conversation on the way there. We got to the hospital. Well, the farther we got to the hospital, the more at peace I felt. The thought of going home was terrifying to me. As soon as we got there, I saw the nurses in the ER, and it was like beams of light were beaming through their heads. I knew I was at the right place. I got there, and they were just so sweet and so supportive. I still wanted to entertain the idea of having a vaginal birth if possible. It was just that I had to get an epidural because there was nothing left in me. I had nothing else to give in my body.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: I wanted to entertain that. And they go, "Well, yeah." They were like, "Were you hoping to have a VBAC?" And I go, "Yeah, actually I was hoping to have that," but I wasn't so committed to it to where I wouldn't have had a C-section. I already knew that I'm just going to do what's best for whatever the situation is after they assess me.But they were actually willing to let me have an epidural and have a VBAC. They were like, "Yeah, that's totally fine if that's what you want to do." And I was like, "Really?" And this was a separate group of providers that I had never experienced before. So yeah. It was absolutely amazing being talked to and being actually asked what I wanted to do.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: So they were doing all of my vitals. And as soon as I got to the hospital, that's when everything went berserk. My blood pressure skyrocketed. My heart rate went up. I was preeclamptic, and I was septic from meconium being in my uterus for that long. As soon as she was checking me, my daughter, Carrington, actually had scooted her head up a little bit to kind of show us what was going on, and the meconium was green. So as soon as I saw that there was green meconium, I was like, "Take me back for a C-section right now," because we all know that's infection. They were so relieved when I was totally fine with having a C-section. They gave me the spinal, and I just remember that being like the best feeling ever having no pain after being in such turmoil and in pain for so long.As soon as they pulled her out of me, she took another massive poop. So if I would have waited any longer, she would have been in that as well, and her chances for aspirating on it would have been really, really high. So yeah, that was it.I felt really great about the C-section. It was empowering because even up until that moment, I still was making decisions for myself and making decisions for my daughter. The decision that I made at the end was to save myself and her. To know that I made that decision and wasn't so committed to an outcome that I was able to make the right decision was like, "Wow. Yeah. I did that." Even though this is something that I wanted more than anything, I was able to let that go and save myself and her.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out of like, I had this empowering healing experience because I was really able to make the decisions along the way. You made the decision to get in that car. You made the decision to continue laboring. Then things changed. You made the decision to call it. And I think that is where a lot of the healing and growing comes from, is when we are able to make the decisions. The trauma, the fear, the hurt is when providers are coming at us and telling us what we are doing. "You are going to do this. I will only allow you to do this. You can if..." and then they give their restrictions. I think that you just nailed it on the head. You were able to make your decisions and be in control of your birth. And no, it wasn't the original outcome that you wanted. You wanted that vaginal birth. You were going for that vaginal birth. Things were really looking great, and when they weren't, you changed your mind. I just think, Women of Strength, take this with you today and know that you are in charge of your birth. Yes, babies and births can throw twists and curves and hurdles and all the things along the way, but you are the one who can make the decision for you. You do not have to be told what you do and do not have to do. Now, we also know that there are true emergent situations. There are true, true, true emergent situations where we maybe don't have a lot of time to sit and think and ponder and wonder what we should do and then follow that. It's just we have to say yes or no right then because it's an emergency situation. Susan: And being able to trust yourself that you are going to know if you need to call it and when to call it.Meagan: Yes.Susan: And that your intuition and your ability to just be in tune with your body and your baby is there.Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely.Susan: Yeah. And you'll know.Meagan: You will know. We talk about the intuition all the time. I mean, I don't know. I would say if not every podcast, probably every other or every couple other, we talk about this intuition. It is so real. I mean, Susan had this intuition. She felt it. She really did. Everybody listened to her. It's so important to be heard and to trust that intuition. So I applaud you, Susan. I'm so grateful that you were able to follow your intuition and be heard and call the shots of your own birth because you did deserve it. I am so happy for you. I know everybody else in the world cannot see your sweet baby, but I can and she's beautiful. I'm just so happy for you that you're able to have these experiences, and you have grown through each one.Susan: Mhmm, mhmm. And just the preparation of having a natural birth and what goes into it physically and mentally is worth it in itself to just give it a try if that's what you're wanting to do. And then allowing yourself to go into labor so all of your body's hormones are released in active labor, even if you do end up having a C-section, that's super valuable for your health and your baby's health.Meagan: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you that question. Yes, it ended in a Cesarean, but would you still have gone for the VBAC?Susan: Yes. I wouldn't have traded any of it for anything. I 100% would have done it again even if I knew what the outcome was going to be.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: Yeah.Meagan: Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories today.Susan: Thank you for having me here and thank you for doing this podcast and being in the business of releasing fear among women because it's like a pandemic of the mind almost.Meagan: Seriously though, we are being told that we have to be scared day in and day out. I mean, we hear these stories. I recorded a story earlier today and it was just like constant fearmongering every single time she was there. That stuff gets really tiring and it's hard to stand up to. But again, it comes down to education, learning these stories, learning your options, and then again following that intuition. So yeah, Women of Strength, you are amazing.Susan: Thank you. You're amazing too, Meagan.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We have two beautiful CBAC stories for you on the podcast this week! Today's episode is with our friend, Melanie. Her first unexpected Cesarean was in April 2020 at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. It was a very lonely and traumatic experience. Melanie found healing through a birth trauma therapist who helped her process her story and prepare for her second birth with a strong mindset. She took charge of what she could while making peace with what she couldn't control. Unfortunately, many things out of her control did happen, and Melanie faced another Cesarean. All of the healing work paid off though, as Melanie was not traumatized but empowered instead. “Birth stays with you forever. It's not something you ‘move on from'. My first birth was 5 years ago and still barrels me over from time to time. Likewise, the pride I feel in how I advocated for myself during my second birth continually gives me strength.”IMG_6660 (1) - Melanie Doyle.jpgCBAC Support - The VBAC Link CommunityBirth Story MedicineNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: This is actually the week that we are kicking off CBAC week. This week you'll hear two CBAC stories. If you haven't caught on yet, every month we have one week with a couple episodes that is a more specialized episode. So if you're looking for CBAC stories, this is your week, and we have our friend, Melanie, with us today.Hello everybody, it's Meagan. I have my friend, Melanie, with us today. Melanie is a 31-year-old mama of two who had two C-sections. While she struggles with birth trauma from her second birth, an emergency C section, it was still quite healing, she said. I love that you're talking about that. You still struggled with this, but it can still be healing. That was how I was. I wanted a VBAC with my second birth. I really, really, really wanted a VBAC, but it didn't happen. It didn't go as planned, and I had a CBAC. I walked down to that or and I had that second C-section, and it was not what I wanted. There was still trauma involved and lots of feelings, but it was still one of the most healing experiences for me. Weirdly enough, I think it's what he needed. I needed that to help me heal from birth one and birth two.So let's talk a little bit about CBAC, and how it can be as a mom who is wanting a VBAC and it doesn't go as planned. Do you have anything to say on that?Melanie: Sure. Thanks, Meagan. Yeah, I have a lot of things to say on that. Honestly, like you, I wanted the VBAC. I did all of the things to try to get that VBAC. I did the yoga and the teas and the stretching and the chiropractor, and the acupuncture. I did it all, and it didn't happen. It wasn't meant to be.I guess I'll get more into that when I dive into my story. But the CBAC was healing because even though I didn't get the outcome I wanted, I was much more empowered throughout the whole process than I was in that first birth. Through a lot of healing and therapy, I realized that it was that empowerment piece that caused a lot of the trauma from my first birth. It wasn't the C-section itself. That wasn't what instigated all of those feelings and all that hurt, but the way I was made to feel, the way I was treated the doubts and insecurities that were planted in me from that experience that took away my power. Even though I did not get that outcome in my CBAC, it undid a lot of that in a way. I was able to of regain some strength and some autonomy. That's lasted a lot longer. I think in this kind of healing journey, it's still hard sometimes. I still feel like I'm just barreled over by the grief that's wrapped up in both of those births. Even though I have two wonderful, beautiful, healthy children, it doesn't all disappear, but it did help me regain a lot of confidence in my ability to advocate for myself and know what I'm capable of.Meagan: Yeah, I love that you pointed out that, that it was a more empowering experience, and you felt more empowered. I really think that along these journeys, if we can be educated and feel empowered, even if it doesn't go the exact way we want it, and that doesn't even just mean Cesarean and VBAC. I didn't want an epidural, and I got an epidural. I didn't want Pitocin. I got Pitocin.Melanie: Right.Meagan: There are all these different things that can happen that we didn't want. But if we can feel empowered and involved and educated and like we are making the decisions too, and sometimes we can't make them. Sometimes our babies make the decisions, and that's frustrating. That's hard. It's like, well, what could I have done? And we go down these real big spiraled, spaces. But if we can really feel empowered along the way, even though we still might not agree with wanting, the outcome of what we wanted, we can feel empowered and have more healing to come.I wanted to talk more about that too, because we see this happen in the VBAC group where it's like, "Hey guys, thank you so much for being with me along this journey. This group has been amazing. However, I feel like I just have to leave now. I can't be here. I don't feel welcome here because I ended in a Cesarean." One, Women of Strength, I want you to know you are always welcome. You are always welcome. And you are incredible. You do. You were not less than anybody else just because you've had a Cesarean. And two, we actually have a CBAC group. I wanted to point that out to any mamas who have maybe gone for the VBAC route or even decided not to VBAC and wanted to have a Cesarean to go into that CBAC group. It is so, so special. It is led and run mainly by the very own Paige on our VBAC team, who is incredible. I just love that group so much. It creates this just abundant amount of love and support that I think everyone deserves. I don't want you to feel alone because I know. I was one of them. When I had my CBAC I was like, I can't keep seeing these people have these VBACs. I wanted a VBAC. I didn't get a VBAC. There were so many feelings, and I didn't feel welcome there. It wasn't even because they didn't make me feel welcome. I just didn't categorize myself as qualified to be in that group. Yeah, so check out The CBAC Link Community on our Facebook and know that Women of Strength, you are incredible. Whether you have a vaginal birth or not, you are incredible. Melanie: Okay, you guys, we're gonna dive into Melanie's stories, I should say. There are two. There are two stories. So, yeah, let's start with birth number one.Melanie: Goodness. So my first birth, my daughter, who is about 4.5 now, was born in April 2020. So it was right at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic lockdown which really set the scene in the most terrible of ways, as many of listeners probably remember, especially for anyone who had a baby during that period. I mean, it was so challenging those final weeks of my pregnancy. Every doctor's appointment I would go to alone. There was just new bad news being delivered to me about the restrictions that were being put in place. And I was very depressed. It was a heartbreaking time. Those final weeks of my pregnancy, I imagined nesting and being cozy with my husband before we had our first baby, and it was just all kind of ripped away like so much was during that period of time. I became really disassociated from my pregnancy and the joy that was meant to be coming. If someone had approached me on the street and said, "We can get that baby out now," I probably would have said, "Sure." I was really in a place of not caring, I guess, about what happened. I was just so desperate for this baby to be born before the restrictions got worse and before my husband wouldn't be allowed to be at the birth. So I was disassociated, I think, is the only way I can describe it. And then, of course, I went overdue because my kids don't come on time. This will be a recurring thing.Meagan: And with your first baby, that is also very common. Just saying. A lot of people carry over that 40-week mark, right?Meagan: Yeah. They don't tell you that when you get the handbook at the beginning of the pregnancy. I was overdue and was desperate to be induced. I went into this prior to the pandemic and everything, being pretty knowledgeable. I had attended a birth before. I had seen things go wrong and had originally had ideas about what I wanted my birth to be like. But at that point, I really was just desperate. The induction started really well. They placed Cervadil, and it kickstarted things like rapid-fire. It worked super well for me and I thought, "Okay, this might still be okay despite the induction. Despite all this, this might still go fine." Given the COVID-19 restrictions at the time, my husband wasn't allowed in with me until I progressed to a certain degree in my labor.Meagan: Wait, what? Melanie: Yeah. Meagan: Not at all until you progress to a certain point?Melanie: So around 7 centimeters, they were going to give him a call.Meagan: What was the difference of you being there at one point over the other?Melanie: Oh, it was tragic. So he waited in the car in the parking lot.Meagan: Oh, poor thing. Poor you. Melanie: So I was alone. And it was terrible. My contractions just came on so super fast because of the Cervadil. I started dilating really quickly and I thought, "Okay, they're going to get him in here. It's going to be okay." It Wasn't. I started to panic. I had not wanted an epidural, but I was obviously experiencing a lot of pain. They got the Cervadil out because of how I was reacting to it. The nurse asked if I wanted an epidural, and I said, "No, I'm okay for now. I'm coping." I waited a while longer, and I was still alone. They still hadn't called my husband, and I just couldn't do it alone anymore. The nurse talked me into the epidural, and I didn't want it, but I felt a little pressured. Yeah, pressured. That's the word. And again, in looking back on that, I recognize that a lot of the birthing people on the floor at that time were also alone. The nurses did what they could in those situations. But, yeah. I still hold a little bit of resentment, I guess, for those moments where I was my most vulnerable and by myself.Meagan: Yeah, understandably. That makes sense.Melanie: Yeah. So I got the epidural. My husband was allowed in shortly after, and things were still okay. I was still progressing fine. Then labor just stalled, which is the start of many stories. So we waited through the night. At some point, they started Pitocin. I was moving in all these ways. I should say that my doctor is a saint among humans. She's incredible. She was on with me all night. She did everything she could. She wasn't on when I first got admitted, but she came on later in the night, and she was phenomenal. She did everything she could to get things going again. And then her shift ended the next day, and somebody else came in. By that time, I had that pesky little cervical lip. My baby's head was OT. She couldn't make that last. I was 9 centimeters, but she couldn't get that last turn because of the tilt. I was swelling. There was meconium. Her heart rate was doing some wonky things, and off to the OR we went. I was okay with it initially.It felt like, "Okay, this is what happens." It was fine, really. I had a pleasant Cesarean experience. I wasn't nauseous. My husband was able to be there with me for the birth, and I had a lovely surgeon, so it was okay. I felt okay for the most part afterward.But again, because of the COVID-19 restrictions, my husband was only permitted to stay two hours after the birth. She was asked to leave and not allowed back until we were released. It was just me and my beautiful baby girl who was 8lbs, 9oz alone for 2.5 days after I was just recovering from major surgery.Meagan: Wow.Melanie: Those first few days were challenging. Breastfeeding was a disaster. A had terrible edema from all the fluids during the C-section. I was huge trying to breastfeed. I was just so puffed up. Everything was impossible. And again, because all the birthing people on the floor were without their partners, the nurses were run ragged. It was very difficult to receive care, to put it politely. I think honestly, a lot of the trauma that I have from that time came from my hospital stay afterward and how I was treated or how I felt kind of neglected and was again alone, in some of the most formative times of my motherhood experience. Meagan: Yeah. Melanie: So that was that really. That was my first birth. As the days progressed, and I got home and I just felt so defeated by and let down by how I was treated and not even how I was treated by people but by the situation. I mean, a lot of it was beyond anyone's control.Meagan: Yeah, that time, I have a lot of feelings. I was not a, mom birthing, but I was a doula supporting couples and saw a lot of really stupid stuff to say that didn't make sense at all. But everyone was so restricted and rules were changing literally by the day and even by the hour. Right?Melanie: Yeah.The hospital I gave birth that has since it kind of acknowledged that they took it a little too far. Laboring people shouldn't be alone. Who would have thought?Meagan: Women in labor should not feel deserted. Yeah.Meagan: So some of that was nice to hear but it was just a little too late for my own benefit. The more that all settled with me, and when we had our first baby, we didn't know down the road if we wanted more kids. I'm an only child. I love being an only child. So I thought, maybe a family of three is fine. But I remember sitting with my doctor at one of our follow-up appointments, and I just broke down by the whole experience and I was like, "I can't do that again. Regardless if I want to. I just can't." She was crushed by that. She just couldn't let me Live with that feeling. "If you don't want more kids, great. You don't. You do you. But that, that can't be how we leave you." So she recommended a therapist to me who has become one of the most dearest people in my life. She's also a doula. And all of her therapy practice focuses on birth trauma, infertility, infant loss, and things of that nature. She was a godsend once we decided that we were ready to have a second baby. I don't think I could have done any of the rest without her. So then moving on to my second birth, it took a while to come around to being ready for that. After that first experience, there was a lot of therapy and a lot of trying to recognize that what I went through wasn't my own fault.Meagan: Yes.Melanie: There was nothing. The choices I made and giving in to the epidural, that wasn't a moral failing on my part. Being alone wasn't that I was not deserving of care, it was just the situation of the time. So a lot of that took some time to reckon with. And then as I began, I knew right away that I was going to try for the VBAC.My doctor was, "Yeah, of course. If you want to 100%." She felt because I did labor so well once we finally got things going, she was pretty confident that things might go okay for me the second time. So she was a great support. But once I started looking into a lot of the VBAC literature in the VBAC world, there were so many pockets of it that I really struggled with. Some of the language around how we can prepare was really off-putting to me. It felt like if you know enough and if you do enough, you'll be okay. It just felt really focused on blaming people for whatever went wrong the first time, if you had known more, if you had advocated for yourself more, if you had breathed more or meditated more, things would have gone better. So I really tried to avoid some of that in preparing for my second birth. I was really focused on the things I could control. My doula/therapist/friend really helped me with a lot of that. A lot of what we focused on and preparing for that second baby was focusing on things that would be true regardless of how that birth happened.  I became really into this series of affirmations. That is not my thing. I'm not into that normally, but they became very treasured to me and still kind of are. I really prioritized creating ones for myself that would be true regardless of what happened. It wasn't about birthing my baby vaginally because that might not happen. I knew that going in. It was more about acknowledging that my body is strong and capable. That's true regardless of what happens. So those sort of sentiments really echoed through my whole pregnancy and leading up to the birth. For the most part, I had a pretty uneventful pregnancy except for the fact that in my 20-week anatomy scan ultrasound, they discovered that my placenta was low. It was partially covering my cervix. My doctor was great. She was like, "Yeah, don't worry about it. It'll move. We're not going to worry about that until we have to. That often happens. We're not going to let that slow us down right now".So that was fine. And then later in my third trimester, I was measuring gigantic. I'm a very small person. I'm barely 5 feet. I'm petite, and I grow big babies. I was measuring quite large. We re-screened for gestational diabetes. I had a weird borderline response. I was doing these funny diet things and trying to get that under control, but I was still measuring pretty large. But again, my doctor wasn't really discouraging about that. "I know people have big babies. The bony pelvis, it moves, don't worry about it." So I still felt pretty good, and I kind of loved the idea of tiny little me having this huge baby. it seemed like I'd be pretty proud of it. But I had to have a follow-up ultrasound to check on the placement of my placenta to see if it had moved enough. And it did. Fortunately, it seemed like it was in the clear. My doctor, who was lovely, indicated that this was not a growth scan. We were just checking the placenta. But of course, the maternal-fetal unit loved to check the size of that baby. So of course, he was huge. They were trying to really say, "Are you sure you still want to do this? Because he's going to be quite a large boy and all that." I mostly tuned that out. I was like, "Yeah, I know. No big deal. I know I can't do anything about that. That's not within my control at this point. I'm 32 weeks pregnant." We carried on as normal. At this point, I was going crazy. I was walking so much. I was seeing the chiropractor. I was doing prenatal yoga. I was curb-stepping everywhere. I lost my mind a little bit in terms of all the preparation I was trying to do trying to get everything right. I became super obsessed with the baby's positioning just knowing positioning had factored into my first birth. I don't think I lied on my right side for months. Basically, I was just really focused on trying to keep things where they should be. Get that baby low and in the right angle. It became a bit of an obsession, but also the thing I'd look back on in a really positive way. I got really good at feeling where he was trying to pick out a spine and what way he was facing. And in retrospect, it made me feel a lot closer to him than I had with my daughter in some ways when I was pregnant. I became very in tune to his movements.Meagan: Yeah.Melanie: So I look back on that and I'm thankful. But yeah. So things were fine. I was growing a big baby, but all seemed well. I felt like I had a great team who supported me and were progressing the way we wanted to. We kind of expected this baby would also be "late" just given my first was. So we kind of prepared for that. We talked about the ways we could induce if needed or how long I wanted to wait until an induction.At the hospital near me, it is standard of practice to be automatically booked for an induction one week past your due date. You get that letter in the mail regardless of whether you want it or not. So as my due date approached, I got that letter. I called my doctor. She canceled that. That was not our plan. We were going to wait and see. So she was great in terms of letting me make the call, I'll say. But at a week past, or I guess just a little over, I did have to have a biophysical. That was the condition which for me turning down the induction was to have the biophysical. And again, my doctor was great. She gave me the heads up that like, "It's pretty easy to fail these and you're 41+ weeks over too." So she was advocating for me that we were not going to jump the gun here. But it was the requirement of their unit to have that. So I went in for my biophysical at 41 and change. I can't remember the exact day. And lo and behold, we failed. I think we had a 6 out of 10. His heart rate didn't do the right things in the right order or whatever the scoring is. I can't recall. And he also didn't score for the seeing the breathing movements. I knew just from my own reading that a score of 6 was a gray area. I wasn't too worried about it. But the staff in the maternal field was like "Oh, well, you're having this baby today." I was like, "Well, no, I'm not. This is not my plan." I know they see the worst cases. That is their space, but I already had the conversation with my doctor so I felt pretty well-informed. I knew that I was not ready yet. I also knew that my doctor was on call that day.So I did go up to labor and delivery which is what they had recommended. She did another biophysical up there and then did a third non-stress test. I also failed the second biophysical but the non-stress test turned out okay. We needed some time, a bit of a walk, some water, and things seemed okay. So I went home and waited for another couple of days. At this point we were, we were really cooking. We were looking at 42 weeks. I did agree to have the induction on a Thursday. I was disappointed that we were going to have to have the induction. I forgot to mention this. I wasn't followed by an obstetrician during my pregnancy. I was with a family practice group. We don't have midwives in the area where I live, but we do have a family practice group who have delivery privileges but they can't perform Cesareans, obviously. So I was followed by this lovely GP who would have delivered had my babies been born vaginally. Because I had to transfer temporarily to the obstetrics unit for the induction, I knew I was going to  encounter some more pushback than I had faced to date with my current doctor because she was so lovely and supportive. I went in and prepared for that. And the OB on that day of my induction was quite-- I don't know how to put it politely. He was very blunt. I don't think he thought I was an overly smart person to be looking at 42 weeks still insisting on trying to have this very large baby vaginally. But to his credit, he respected my autonomy and was like, "Yeah, sure, we'll give it a shot. I think it's the wrong call, but it's your call to make." So I have a love/hate relationship with him to some extent. So they did another non-stress test and things looked okay. And then I think he left and a resident came in to start the induction. I was a little dilated, so they were going to try the Foley, which they had initially some trouble getting in. It was the worst pain I've ever been in that didn't compare it all to labor on my first. But that Foley was like, whew. As soon as the resident got it in, all hell broke loose. My husband was by my shoulder and just turned white as a ghost. The resident looks up and she's like, "I think that's a little more blood than we would expect." Meanwhile, I can just see it pouring onto her shoes. I'm just hemorrhaging. Meagan: Whoa. Melanie: I'm hemorrhaging. So she runs out. There's a nurse there trying to mop things up and I'm still holding whatever sort of contraption they used to hold the Foley in. The OB comes in with an ultrasound machine. They're, of course, fearing my placenta is beginning to rupture or whatever. So he's checking the ultrasound. The heart rate monitors plummet. The baby's heart rate drops into the 60s. The room fills with people and I'm petrified. I'm just shocked. The OB's trying to move me and trying to get the Foley out. It felt like an hour. I'm sure it was only a minute that the heart rate recovered, but the decision is made like, "We're going to the OR." They didn't know what the source of the bleeding was. I was still hemorrhaging. I asked the OB like, "Can I just talk to my husband for a minute?" And he said "No, we don't have time. We're going."So we go to the OR and it was really quick. It was so much faster than my first birth. I don't even think the terror really caught on to me until later when they finally gave me the baby and the OB ensured me, "Oh yeah, no. He wasn't without oxygen for any extent. He checked out okay. He's fine." And I'm not sure it hit me that that was ever in doubt that it could have gone a way that he wouldn't have been fine. So it was a lot. It was a lot. To say it wasn't what we were expected would be an understatement. To say I didn't get my VBAC was an understatement because it just became a conversation of so many greater things. Fortunately, my doctor happened to be in the hospital, and she took care of us. We only stayed there for a day. Fortunately, that was the main thing on my birth plan that regardless of what happened, to get me out of the hospital as quickly as possible. So we were released the next day. The baby was fine, and I was fine. We were all healthy. There was no great source of the bleeding outside of that they suspected that my placenta was still a little too low compared to how it showed on the scans from in my third trimester. So when they inserted the Foley, things shifted enough that it tore a teensy bit or something, and hence the blood, but not enough to cause damage to me or my son. But that, the proximity of my placenta to my cervix wasn't quite clear on that ultrasound in my third trimester. So, yeah, that's my birth story.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. You know, birth sometimes can unfold in those really wonky, unexpected ways. And like, I have questions too. Like, could they have torn your cervix from placing the Foley? Could the Foley have nicked your placenta if it was too low inside? Right? There are all of these questions, and we tend to go that way, wanting to know the answers, but sometimes we just don't know the answer. We've talked about this a long time ago in our radical acceptance. Julie and I did a radical acceptance episode, which if you haven't checked that episode our, I really highly suggest listeners check it out because sometimes there is not an answer. The answer is unknown and it will remain unknown. Sometimes not knowing the answer can consume us, and it can leave the trauma, the doubt, the fear, and all the feelings that come with. Sometimes that means we have to let it go. We're not getting the answer. We just not getting the answer. Letting it go helps us grow, helps us heal, helps us move on to that next stage.And when I say move on, I don't mean just ignore it, wipe it out, or it never happened. It's accepting that it happened. Accept that where we were then is where we were. We made the decisions we made with the information that we were given, and now we're moving on. You did the best thing you could do for your baby by saying, like, "Okay, yeah." And like you said, it didn't even happen or occur to you until later that, "Wait, my baby couldn't have been okay?" I'm sure that sat really heavily.Melanie: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, hugely. Right? It was. It all happened so quickly. There was so much blood. Again, you're on your back. You can't really see well, but when you see it just as when the resident leaves the room, and t's on her shoes. I'm not okay. There's a problem there right now, right? Yeah. And, you know, my son was big. He was 9 pounds, 15 ounces. I don't think his size had anything to do with this part of the conversation, but in my mind, I think I've somehow accepted that I think he was going to be born via Cesarean regardless of what happened in my first birth. My placenta was low right from the start. That was a known thing that I was going to deal with, C-section or not. I know there's obviously some evidence to show that the way placenta can attach can be influenced by previous C-section scars, of course. But, I think that's how I've been able to make peace with a lot of that. It was just always going to be this way for him. I don't know. Because I was empowered through some of the decisions I made, and because I felt genuinely supported by the people around me, except for maybe that kind of cranky OB besides him, it's much easier to come to terms with what happened. And in a lot of ways, even though, my second birth is the much scarier of the two situations, I don't have nearly as much trauma associated with it. It was a crappy birth. I'll be frank about it. But it is what it is. It was scary, but it's not what keeps me up at night sometimes still, like that first birth where I felt disempowered and disenfranchised and ignored and neglected. That is the lasting problem. While I've done a lot to overcome that, I think it just goes to show how we treat people in these moments can really have a lasting impact. It's not just about the physical pain, the physical trauma, and the health emergencies that cause trauma. It can be a lot of the emotional harm as well.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out and you mentioned this along the way with some of your prep you're like, "I am not the affirmation type. It's not my thing. I don't connect to it." But you did. I think affirmations are so powerful whether or not you are an affirmation person or not. I really think having those on your side can be impactful. Like you said, you're like, "I still kind of like, hold on to them and cherish them today."Melanie: I really do. I have a list of them on my notes app on my phone. They're the same ones. They were the ones I wrote when I was pregnant with my second baby. Sometimes when I'm having a bit of a bad day or when you see another one of those photos, like the people you referenced earlier who don't associate with the VBAC groups anymore, they don't see themselves every now and then, when a photo of a super strong, awesome person with their fist up in the air celebrating their VBAC. Some of those will just hit me the wrong way one day. I'll go back to those affirmations and remind myself that my body is strong and accomplished and whatever I need to hear that day. They do have a long-lasting impact. Another one that got me through a lot was, "I'm strong enough to face what comes." Whatever that is.Meagan: Strong enough to face what comes. I love that. Yeah.Melanie: Yeah, it's been a bit of a journey. My kids are 4 and 2 now. We're not sure if we're done.Meagan: Yeah.Melanie: But despite all of these experiences, I would still 100% go for another VBAC.Meagan: Yeah.So I was going to ask you that too. Do you feel at this point that you would rather just do Cesareans? Would you have said, "Looking back, I just wish I would have scheduled it at 40 weeks, or are you feeling pretty content and empowered with the choices that you made?"Melanie: That's a great question. I think about it a lot. I'm fairly positive I wouldn't have just scheduled the C-section. And partially because despite being alone for part of my labor with my first birth, I kind of loved labor. Before I got the epidural, I have never felt so strong and so awesome in my whole entire life. I was like, "I am woman. Hear me roar." Maybe that is just in retrospect, but I also have a couple of selfies from those few hours. I'm enjoying a lot of it. So when I was preparing for my second birth even knowing that maybe this will end up in a C-section, I kept thinking, "Oh, well, at least I'll get to labor again. I'll have that. That would be great." And I didn't. I didn't get any of that. I'm not turned away from that. I'd be very much open to trying again. I think if we were to have another, I would not do all the things I became so obsessed with making sure I was getting 12,000 steps or whatever it was, and the curb-walking and the squats. I did so many squats, and I ate so many dates. I would just let go of a lot of that because I think a lot of that was the pressure of, "You need to do everything you can to get this right." And I don't have that pressure on me anymore. Maybe because I'm older than I was then, or because I was maybe foolish. I think I know a little more, but I think I would just. Let's just try. Let's see what happens.Melanie: Yeah.Meagan: You know, I want to talk a little bit about that. You talked about how you did things that you could control, but then you also focused on how you went down that path of-- I call it obsession. The path of obsession.Melanie: It was.Meagan: I was once on the path of obsession as well with my second, my second that I wanted to VBAC that went Cesarean. I ate the dates. I drank the tea. I did all the things too, and then it didn't unfold exactly how I wanted it. I don't think the things that I did or the things that I didn't do, as far as the prep goes, really impacted as much as I didn't choose the right provider. But with my second, I let go of some of the things, but then hyper-obsessed with some of the other things. I didn't sit on a couch for nine months. I sat in a car really, really straight up paying attention to my sway back and my pelvis.But I did the things that I could control that felt right for me. I went to a chiropractor. That made me feel better. I was like, "All I can do is go and hope for the best. Right?" I drank my tea. I let go of the dates. I couldn't eat another date for a very long time. I do now. I actually add them to oatmeal and things, but I couldn't even stomach a date. There were things that I did and I didn't do. So try not to go down the path of obsession because I think sometimes it takes away from our pregnancy. Do all the things that you can do within your control that feel right. So eat well. Hydrate well. Get a good prenatal. Process your birth. Process your past birth. Know what you want. Hire a doula if you want to doula. Find your right supportive provider. But also, if it's too much and you need to be like, "You know what? I'm going to do what I can over here, and I'm just going to let it unfold over here," I don't think there's any shame in that. I don't think anyone should be like, "Well, but you're not doing x, y, z." Yeah, I'm not because right now it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. Melanie: That's exactly right. I think I was just so afraid if my birth didn't go well, if I would think that, "Oh, there's something else I could have tried." That was, I think, my mindset in preparing for that second birth. But I'm glad you mentioned the feeling right because I did actually give up the acupuncture at 40 weeks because I hated it. I hated going. I didn't like the way it made me feel. It made me groggy. I felt like I was sleepwalking.Meagan: Not right.Melanie: Not right, but yes, letting that go. But again,  initially, I felt guilty for it. Almost like I'm not doing everything I could. But sometimes we need to let that go if it doesn't feel right for us.Meagan: Yeah, I agree.So really quickly, to wrap this up, we asked for a secret lesson, and then we asked for your tips. I wanted to read what you wrote. When I said, "What is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish that you would have known ahead of time when preparing for birth?" Your answer was, "Birth stays with you forever. It's not something you just move on from." Like we were just saying, it isn't. It's not just something that you move on from and you forget about it. It's just gone. It's not. It really does stick with you, and it can impact future births. So know that that's a thing, and you need to work through that if you have trauma. She says, "My first birth was nearly five years ago, and the trauma still barrels over her." Likewise, the pride that you feel and how you advocated for yourself during your second birth continuously gives you strength. So I love that secret lesson. I think it's very empowering.And then when I asked, "What is your best tip for someone preparing for VBAC?" There's a lot here, and I'm just going to read exactly what you wrote because so it's all so good. And you also kind of talked about it within your story, but I just wanted to write what you wrote. It says, "Preparing for a baby and birth is a mental, emotional and cognitive journey, not just physical. I did so much work with the support of a wonderful doctor, doula, therapist and partner that all helped me cope with this birth. I did chiropractic care, pelvic floor PT, acupuncture, yoga, massage, but it was the mental work and preparation that I did that really made the difference." And then you said, "If someone is into affirmations, find or create some that will be true regardless of whatever happens." Again, pointing out what you said earlier. I think it's important to note. Women of Strength, you can prep. You could do everything, and sometimes when I think we do everything and then they don't unfold exactly how we think, "We did everything. And it sucked. It failed me." It's not true. You did everything that felt right for you, and you have to embrace that and congratulate yourself for that and say, "I did what I could." But I love that you talked about the affirmations that can stay true. I love that so much. Your body is strong. No matter how you birth your baby, your body is strong. So, there's something that you did through therapy and healing that I would love to talk on before we go. Is there any way you could dive into that a little bit?Melanie: Yeah, sure. So it's a practice called birth story medicine. I'm not an expert in it by any means, but it is the train of schooling that my therapist, who's also a doula, specializes in with birthing people who have birth trauma. It's really a part of a birth story. Listening. So having someone reciprocate in the dialogue of your birth story, really similar to what goes on in this podcast in a lot of ways, where you are being heard when you tell your birth story. But through that process, over months and months of the telling and retelling of my birth story, particularly that first birth, my therapist was able to really help me get to a place of re-seeing it. That's when I began to re-see my role in that. It really centers around this idea that through discussion and through sharing, that can be the medicine we need to heal emotionally. So it's again, not always about those physical scars we're left with, but emotionally what we carry and giving value to those, having those be heard in a space where they're not often heard. When we go into a hospital or a birth center, we don't always create space or are not always given the space to have those feelings and that trauma heard. That birth story medicine approach really helped me re-see my experience for my first birth.I love that you talk about this. We actually have something similar in our VBAC course when it comes to mental and physical prep because I think that's honestly where our course starts as mental and physical prep. I truly believe that's where this journey starts. But I talk about the senses. So when we are processing our birth or going through this birth medicine journey, I suggest doing things where you write your birth story. Physically write it. Read it, so you're seeing it. So you're physically doing the action. Now you're seeing it and you're reading it. Okay? Read it out loud to someone so you're hearing it being said and someone else is hearing it. Receive validation. Okay?Really walk through those five senses because I truly believe that it helps you heal. But hearing it, seeing it, writing it, being validated. I guess it's not even the five senses. We can't smell our birth, but we talk about that like taking yourself back, putting yourself in that feeling, hearing those sounds, smelling the smells and processing those is so empowering. It's a little different, but kind of similar. I love it. I love that so much. Is it birth medicine? Is that what you're calling it?Melanie: Birth story medicine. I can't remember the woman who wrote the book quite literally, but I recommend everyone check it out.Meagan: We're going to find it, and put it in the show notes. Birth story medicine. Here we go.Okay, really quickly before we go, will you give us two or three affirmations that really stuck with you if you have them? If not, no worries.Melanie: Oh, sure. I still do. So one that I don't hold on to as much now, but it was really important to me leading up to that second birth, especially given my first was, "I am not responsible for starting labor when it starts." I tried, but I had to remind myself, "I am not responsible for starting labor." Another one was, "My baby will be born. I will birth my baby."Meagan: Yes.Melanie: However that happens, I will birth my baby. The final one may be that again, I think because of the trauma I had from my first birth during the pandemic was, "I am not alone. My baby is with me."Meagan: Love those so much.Melanie: Oh no, I'm very emotional.Meagan: I'm sorry. I did not mean to make you emotional, but I really thank you so much for all of those and for your words. I am so happy that you were able to come through on the other side of this experience with the mindset that you have. I know it's not easy. I know it hasn't been easy. The journey is really a journey and like you said, it sticks with you forever. I will never forget all three of my births.As of the day of this very recording, my daughter turned 13 yesterday. My first C-section was 13 years ago yesterday. Let me tell you, I reflected deeply. I had a lot of emotions. I cried. I smiled. I had so many feelings that it, literally makes me emotional thinking about it right now. But you guys, I was amazing back then. I didn't fail. I didn't fail. I think that's just so important that we know that no matter how our baby is born, we are going to be with our baby. Our babies will be with us, and we didn't fail. We did the best we could, and you were incredible.Melanie: Thanks, Meagan. You too. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Chrissie always dreamed that the birth of her babies would be the happiest days of her life. But with her first two births, they were among the worst. In today's episode, Chrissie expresses the heartbreak she felt after doing everything to prepare for a VBAC and not get it. Though she wasn't sure how her third birth would go, the healing, research, and advocacy she did made all the difference in her experience. She called the shots, listened to her intuition, and ultimately saved her baby's life by being so in tune with herself and her body. And finally, the birth of her third baby was the most beautiful, joyful, and happiest day. Coterie DiapersUse code VBAC20 at checkout for 20% off your first order of $40 or more.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a CBAC after two Cesareans story coming your way today. This is a story that we felt we should share because it is so important to document our CBAC stories as well. Even though there are a lot of things that are going to unfold within our guest, Chrissie's story, it's so important to see how much she has grown and healed over each experience. Listening to her, a few things came up in my mind as I was listening. It was intuition. We've said it for years, honestly since 2018 when this podcast began. Intuition is so powerful, and sometimes it's hard to turn into and understand what your intuition is or what fear is, but I challenge you right now to start tuning into that. When you're getting the feelings, is it your intuition? Really, really connect with that intuition because it is so powerful. Another thing that I felt was a big takeaway from her story was how much she researched and gained knowledge of her own rights and her own ability to say no or to say, “Not now, not yet. No, thank you.” Women of Strength, I know it's hard, and it's really hard when we're in labor. I know it. But you always have the right to say no. You can always say no. Chrissie really did such a good job at researching and educating herself and arming herself up with the knowledge that she needed to so she could confidently say no when she needed to but also confidently say, “Hey, this is something that needs to change,” and stand up for herself in that time. I do have a Review of the Week, so I want to jump into this, and then turn the time over to Chrissie. Okay, this review is hseller. Hseller, I think is how it is. It says, “Life-changing. I don't even know where to begin. This podcast has honestly been life-changing. I am currently 9 months postpartum after my first Cesarean birth, and I've already binged every episode. I honestly believe The VBAC Link should be a resource for every birthing person, not just VBAC, on how to prevent a Cesarean to begin with. This needs to be part of basic birth education.”Oh, girl. I am with you on this. I am with you on this. It says, “I have shared this podcast and the blog with every friend of mine who is expecting because I wish I would have known about it before my first birth. Listening to the podcast reminds me that I'm not alone in my experiences and that this is possible and to have an amazing, empowering birth is possible. Julie and Meagan deliver facts, stories, and inspiration in such a wonderful way. Hearing their voices when an episode comes on puts me in a happy place. My husband and I have already been talking about baby number two. I can't wait to share my next birth story because with an education and support I now have, I know it will be beautiful and healing regardless of the outcome.”Thank you so much, hseller, for your review. You guys, these reviews really do mean so much. It is now 2025, and we do need updated reviews. You never know. It may be read on the next podcast. We are switching things up this year with educational pieces and topics of reviews and things like that, so you never know. But please, please, please leave us a review. It means the world to us. Meagan: Okay, you guys, I'm seriously so excited. It's always so fun to have multiple people on the show and cohosts, but it's also really fun to have doulas sharing the story or listening to the story with their clients and giving their tidbits. So Chrissie, I'm going to turn the time over to you and then of course, Sarah will be hearing from you, I'm sure along the way as well.Chrissie: All right. Hi, I'm Chrissie. I live in Greenville, South Carolina and I'm going to tell you about my three birth stories. All VBACs and repeat Cesarean stories start with your first C-section. Julian was our first C-section.He was conceived during my husband and I's fourth month of dating. My husband and I both knew marriage and kids were our desire with each other almost instantly, but it was still crazy to think about how fast it happened. Everything was going fine until about 30 weeks when I started to be measuring about a week behind and was scheduled for a growth scan which we couldn't get into until about 32 weeks.During that scan, it was confirmed that Julian was measuring close to the lower 10th percentile and that I, from that point, would be scheduled for regular non-stress tests every week for the rest of the pregnancy. His check at 36 weeks was non-reactive which is not what they like to see. I was sent for a biophysical profile. He was graded so low that I was told to immediately go to labor and delivery and not eat or drink anything, which as a nurse, I know that means they were assuming I may have surgery in the very near future.I was planning to go to work right from my original appointment, so I reported to work, but then went right upstairs and burst into tears of fear. I was given fluid, and he woke up because of the scare. But because of the scare, I was scheduled for an induction at 39 weeks and because I didn't know any better, I was just excited to meet him a week early.On the day of my induction, I showed up bright and early, ready to get things going. I had done no preparation, assuming that my high pain tolerance and grit would serve me well. I wasn't against pain medication, but I was ready to test my limits. Julian passed the non-stress test, so they started Pitocin, and he was doing fine, so they decided to insert a Foley bulb to speed things up.When they inserted it, my water broke, so that kind of put me on the clock. Once I got to about 4 centimeters 12 hours later, I was somehow feeling discouraged and tired and asked for the epidural. My husband said as he was holding my hunched over body that a huge teardrop fell out of my eye as the needle went in and the zing sensation went down my leg.I, was already giving up, but had no idea what I was setting myself up for.Over the next four hours, Julian's heart rate would drop with every contraction while Pitocin was going. They would turn it off, and he would be fine. And then when they restarted it, he would have the non-reassuring heart tones again. I was not explained to why I needed to wear oxygen or keep flipping from side to side or what low heart tones meant. All I know is that at 1:00 AM, they called for a C-section because we were getting close to the 24-hour rupture of membranes.If I had known then what I have learned since then, I would have tried to steer my birth in so many different directions. Unfortunately, birthing people are not given this kind of information upfront, which is. Why I think The VBAC Link is so important for any pregnant person as it could potentially help 1 in 3 women who end up consenting to a C-section to this day. I was devastated. I never thought the dramatic push and bringing baby to my chest at long last was something that wouldn't happen for me, let alone I would mourn missing out on it. I was wheeled into the OR. My arms were strapped down to either side of me. My arms were shaking and pulling uncontrollably to the point that when my Julian was given to me, I was too scared to hold him thinking I would drop him since my arms felt like Jell-O. I've since learned that because my epidural was converted for the C-section that I would feel extremely unpleasant sensations of my innards being pushed and pulled out of my body. All I could think about was my dad saying, "It was the happiest day of my life when you were born," and somehow this was feeling like one of the worst days of my life. I felt a double loss. It took me a long time to get over feeling like a sham for not giving birth the real way, but on the table, they said we gave you a double stitch so you can VBAC the next time. Over the next five and a half years that became an overwhelming objective and purpose in my life. When Julian turned 1, I had my IUD removed. I still had not gotten my period back but was hopeful it would return soon since had started to wean him from breastfeeding. When it did return, it was not normal. I would be spotting for weeks afterward and had a strange dull pain on and off constantly. I was so desperate to get pregnant so that I could get my VBAC thinking that all the horrible feelings I was having would go away. Or so I thought.After what felt like the longest four months ever, I did conceive our daughter, Ellie. It was January 2020. To this day, there are so many songs, books, and kids' shows that I cannot watch because they remind me of the early days of the pandemic. My son and I both got flu A and flu B during the first three months of the year, and it was terrifying to be relieved by a positive flu test.As an ER nurse, I was put on furlough since no one was coming into the ER, and many of us were sent to New York City and hard-hit areas to help where help was needed. I had to tell my manager earlier than I would have liked that I was pregnant and scared to be around some of the symptomatic COVID patients because we did not know what would happen. Sometime in the spring when people couldn't stand quarantine anymore and were going out and socializing again, the patients in the ER spiked, and I went back to work at six months pregnant. Even though it was terrifying, I was glad to be out of the house with somewhere to go and have a purpose.Those winter and spring months were some of the most depressing and hardest to get through in my life up to that point. I spent a lot of the time doing all the things that you can do to achieve a VBAC. I took a mindful birthing course over Zoom because they weren't doing any in-person things at that point.I read several books, did Spinning Babies exercises, hired a doula, etc. The thought of finally getting my VBAC was at times my only motivator to get up and do the things some days, other than the bare minimum to keep my one-year-old and me alive as horrible as that sounds.When I reached 37 weeks, I went into quarantine, and the waiting game began. I walked miles and miles and practiced mindfulness techniques to get through the pain. I was scared that the epidural had led to my son being in distress. So by this point, Ellie had passed all of the extra growth scans. She was head down. Everything looked perfect. By 40 weeks and five days, I became extremely stressed out. I had an induction scheduled for 41 and three days that was making me so nervous. My husband and I attempted to speed things up, breaking my water in the process.As soon as I felt the gush of fluid, I felt my heart sink and was overcome with fear and regret. It was starting just like the first birth I did with the premature rupture of membranes and what I believed would be an inevitable cascade of interventions that would lead to a repeat C-section.The rupture occurred around 3:00 PM, and I decided I should try to rest and wait for things to ramp up. By 10:00 PM, things were regular but not painful. I decided to try and go to sleep, but because of my trauma from the first birth, I wanted to make sure that she wasn't having issues with deceleration. I got my stethoscope out and listened to her heart rate as I had done several times before that point. It sounded normal and I listened to it through a few contractions.Every time, I could hear her heart rate slow very noticeably. I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to go to the hospital because I knew what they would say. I didn't want to tell my husband because I knew he would want me to go to the hospital, but I was genuinely concerned for her. So I let my husband listen, and he started getting dressed immediately to go. I knew it was over.When you arrive at L&D, they ask for a reason for you being there. As a nurse, I knew what I was about to say was going to sound insane, but I said, "I think my baby is having distress. I heard her decelerations on my stethoscope at home."I could see the amusement in the triage nurse's eyes as I said this. But she said, "Okay, let's get you hooked up and see what's going on." Sure enough, she was already having category 2 decelerations, and I was only 1 centimeter dilated. The resident said that my contractions were only about 5 minutes apart, but that because of the decelerations, she would be admitting me right away.She said we could try fluids and some position changes, but it was looking like the C-section was going to be the only safe way to get her out since I was so far from 10 centimeters.Before she left the room, she said, "I know this is going to be very disappointing for you since you wanted to VBAC, but you may have saved your baby's life by coming in when you did. It's amazing that you knew to listen and could interpret what you heard."Long story short, nothing worked, and I was prepped for the C-section. My COVID test was negative, so my husband was going to be allowed to come into the OR. Tears were streaming down my face the whole way. I walked into the OR and sat myself on the table for the epidural. I was still in the clothes I had walked in wearing. That's how fast things were going. The epidural was placed, and they started prepping me after a few minutes. They still had the fetal monitor attached for some reason, and we heard her heart drop into the 70s and not come back up. I could hear the sense of urgency on the other side of the drape. And suddenly, I felt several sharp pricks across my abdomen. I was lying there with so many thoughts running through my head. But thankfully, one of those thoughts was, "I wonder why they just poked me like that. Oh, I guess they're checking to see if I was numb. Wait, I felt that."I yelled, "Wait, I felt that."And they were like, "What? Was it dull or sharp?" I yelled, "It was sharp." They poked me again and again, and I kept saying, "It's sharp." We could all hear her heart rate in the background getting slower and slower, and I yelled, "Just put me out. Just put me out."The pre-oxygenation mask went right onto my face, and the last thing I heard before I went out was, "Someone page the STAB team," which is the group of medical providers they call when they're assuming that a newborn is not going to be doing well. I woke up in a daze when I realized where I was and what had happened. I burst into tears again and asked, "Is she okay?"And she was perfect.They actually said she was screaming before they even pulled her out of me fully. Very strong and healthy baby Ellie. But another day that was supposed to be the happiest day of my life which instead was a day even worse than my first birth. I felt completely defeated, hating myself for all the time, effort, money, worry, hope, and mind space that I had put into something that I still didn't get. A few minutes after I woke up, the surgeon came up to me and said, "Your original scar did not heal right. It was defective, and because of the urgency of the situation, we had to cut through a higher area of your uterus so we wouldn't accidentally cut any arteries because the anatomy was obscured by the first scar. We realized while repairing the uterus that it was in the contractile tissue, and you will never be allowed to VBAC again."I didn't really care because I thought we were done having kids, or so I thought. But it made me feel really bad about myself hearing the words "defective", "obscure anatomy" and "not allowed" hung with me for a long time. I wanted to get out of that hospital as soon as I could. All I could think about was my failure and how all the feelings that were supposed to be fixed by this birth were only made worse at my follow- up appointments. At the 6-week check and the 12-week for IUD insertion, I had to actually be let out the back door both times so that the people in the waiting room wouldn't see me hysterically crying. I honestly didn't even want to go to these follow-up appointments because they just further cemented to me that I had failed. And I'm not someone who can be told that I can't. Even though I was for sure believing we were done having kids, I joined the Special Scars group on Facebook just to see if anyone had had a similar scar as mine.I didn't think we would have more kids, but I still wanted to know if I could. Unfortunately, over the past few years, I've only spoken with one other woman who had a similar scar as mine. The fact that it was so uncommon made me hate it even more because I couldn't find any answers about what it meant for me. I did seek counseling following these events, and eventually, I felt better but I still thought about what happened daily and could not stand to hear anything related to birth.Several months later, I started having pelvic pains. I went to be evaluated for an ovarian cyst, but when they didn't find one, they did see how crazy my first scar had healed. Because of the pain, they had agreed to do an exploratory laparotomy surgery to repair the scar thinking it could be the source of my pain and definitely a reason for the spotting I'd had between cycles. During the surgery, they found a large surgical hernia as well that they had to remove momentum from and recommended surgery to fix it in the future. Whatever the reason for the pain was the scar or the hernia, my pain was gone following the surgery and two weeks later we moved to Greenville, South Carolina. Everything seemed fine.Trying to settle into a new house that needs lots of fixing up with a one and a three-year-old takes time. I knew I didn't have an IUD in at that time, but my period hadn't come back yet since my one-year-old would not take to the weaning and I was still nursing her. I wasn't that worried.In August, my period did come back, and I decided to use ovulation strips to see how long after ovulating I was spotting to see if I could figure out if my cycles were in the normal range again. Strangely, the first strip showed up very dark along with the next several strips I tried and I was like, "Oh great, things are out-of-whack still." But that's when I remembered people sometimes interpreting ovulation strips for pregnancy since LH and HCG are such similar-shaped molecules. I decided to use one of the pregnancy strips that comes with the ovulation pack and sure enough, it was also darkly positive. I was inexplicably excited, and I sheepishly told my husband who was also very excited. We went to our eight-week appointment, and there was nothing on the ultrasound. My HCG was high, but the progesterone was low and they called it a blighted ovum. I eventually did pass whatever was in there. This left my husband and I with a new resolve to a third child and crossed the bridge of a third C-section when we got there. I started listening to The VBAC Link again-- something I had to erase from my memory in the past as it was another reminder of my failure to VBAC and not getting to submit my story of healing and success. There was an episode I got to where I really liked what one of the guests was saying. She was a doula named Sarah, and believe it or not, she was based out of Greenville.I knew that if we conceived again, she would be my doula.A year later, after a chemical pregnancy and a loss at 10 weeks, we conceived our second daughter, Leah. I had established care with the midwifery practice for the first few months until they saw my surgical records and transferred me to the OB practice across the street. Additionally, because I was 37 years old at this point, I was sent to maternal-fetal medicine for my 20-week anatomy scan to double-check that everything was looking normal, which it was.At my first appointment with the OB group, the doctor sat down across from me and said, "Well, your anatomy scan looks great. We will also do a growth scan at 32 weeks and 36 weeks because of your previous history of IUGR."And I said, "Sure, that's fine."He went on to say, "So you understand why the midwives transferred your care to us and that you're not allowed to have a vaginal birth, right?" By this point, I'd done some research on my birth rights, special scars, and hospital regulations, and answered calmly, "Actually, you can't tell me I'm not allowed to let something happen on its own. You're not allowed to force me to have a surgery that I do not consent to."He responded, "Well, I'm not sure anyone in this practice or any practice would be comfortable allowing you to VBAC."And I said, "Well, I'm not comfortable just going straight for a C-section at 36 weeks and not at least seeing how things go." I left the appointment pretty upset and even more determined to decide my own fate. As the appointments went by, each OB would say, "You understand that we would like you to schedule a C-section?"And I said, "Yes, but I'm not ready to make that decision yet. I'm still doing my research. What I have found is that the highest estimated rate of rupture after a classical scar is around 15%, but other studies estimate it to be much lower. Additionally, some studies don't distinguish between true rupture and dehiscence. Furthermore, most ruptures are not catastrophic, meaning loss of life, permanent disability, hysterectomy, and so on. Only about 2% of ruptures end this way, and they're often caught through monitoring or other symptoms before they can progress to anything beyond the risks of a typical C-section." Having done this research on my own, I became more confident in my decision to continue on the path of letting my body decide what it was going to do. Sarah, my doula, gave me more confidence. I had told her everything that had happened in my past and she said I had valid feelings and thoughts, and had made logical decisions based on my research.She sent me along her usual workbooks and resources for creating a birth plan, birthing positions, pain management, Spinning Babies, tea dates, etc. I told her I appreciated it, but I'm not going to do those things. I had done all those things and more and that had ended up being one of the hardest parts of my first repeat C-section having realized it made no difference at all. The last thing I wanted to do was spend time trying to be mindful and stretching instead of being mindful with my kids and family who were already there.This ended up being a decision I was very thankful to have made and Sarah was on board and fully understood my reasoning.Weeks went by. At every appointment, the OB would say, "It looks like you've been counseled on this before, and there's no need to go over everything again. Are you ready to schedule your C-section yet?" And I would say, "No, not yet."Looking back, they really didn't go over anything with me. All they said was because of my special scar and lower segment surgery, I was too high risk and not allowed to VBAC.I had done my own research and there are no actual numbers on a high transverse scar which is just above the lower segment, in the upper segment, or on the lower segment scar resection, which is what they classified my surgery as. I feel it's important to get these numbers as C-section rates continue to rise, more versions of special scars will occur and more people could possibly end up with scar revision surgeries before they're done growing their family.At my 37-week appointment, with some encouragement from Sarah, I finally got an OB who would talk to me about my options. She said, "I know we can't make you have surgery that you don't want. You're right. You're in a gray area. We don't really know the numbers for your kind of situation. I think it's reasonable for you to see what happens. If you show up in labor, we will admit you." And I was overcome with relief. Finally, someone was being honest with me. She knew I had done all my research and was overly informed of my rights. I told her that I just didn't want to be harassed or threatened if I came in because that would discourage me from coming in when I would have liked to which is right when labor started. She said I could come in as soon as I thought anything was going on and I would be treated with respect. Circling back to what I learned about EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, it basically says if a hospital wants to receive reimbursement from Medicare patients, they may not turn away anyone seeking treatment regardless of their citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.If a pregnant person arrives in active labor, they must be treated until the delivery is complete or a qualified medical personnel identifies that she's experiencing false labor.Furthermore, the person in labor can only be transferred if there's a hospital that can offer a higher level of care. The hospital I was going to was equipped to deliver VBAC and had a NICU. So I knew they were equipped to handle uterine ruptures, which they do about once a month, I've learned.I did agree to schedule a repeat C-section at 40 weeks and four days. At 40 weeks and one day, I got anxious and tried a half dose of what's recommended for kickstarting things with castor oil. It definitely kickstarted some things, and within about six hours, I was having contractions every four minutes.About two hours later, I was getting anxious to go to the hospital because they just didn't feel right. I felt them from my belly button down, and they didn't feel the same way. I remembered with the Pitocin, they weren't really crampy. They're more burning and sharp. I suddenly started feeling an urgency to get to the hospital so they could do the C-section. I texted Sarah to say, "We're going, but don't worry about coming just yet." My answer for why I had come to the L&D department was painful contractions. I already couldn't talk through them. I was hooked up to the monitors, and we could see that Leah was already having Cat 2 borderline Cat 3 decelerations.It's determined by how much the heart rate drops as a percentage of the baseline heart rate when not in a contraction. We tried some position changes, but I had already felt at peace with the idea of going back for a C-section, and my intuition told me it was time. I was extremely nervous to be strapped down, shaking uncontrollably, and not being able to enjoy my baby again.To my surprise, the spinal worked amazingly. I was calm, my husband was next to me, and I got to make all the decisions. I didn't feel pulling or pressure or tugging at all. It was the first time that I got to cry tears of joy after seeing my baby for the first time. I was informed that I'd had a small rupture and I had a very thin lower segment-like tissue about halfway up my uterus, which is not normal. I ruptured. It wasn't a big deal. We caught it. I knew something was wrong, and I had made the decisions that healed me, and I got my baby here safely. After my second was born, I remember sadly walking around our neighborhood, lost in the thought that I'd met all the important people in my life already and something was not sitting right with that. Never would I have ever imagined that a third C-section would heal everything.What I want people to take from my story is that you have to accept that you might not get your VBAC and work that into the process of attempting a VBAC. You can't put all your eggs in one basket for working towards that VBAC and ignoring the basket that needs some attention in case it doesn't happen.Making your own decisions and being confident in your reasoning makes all the difference. Yes, I did have a third C-section, but I know there's nothing I could have possibly done any differently that would have changed the outcome. I encourage people to do their own research, not just on rupture rates but on birth rights and patient rights.You cannot let your provider decide for you what they think is best for most patients because you're an individual and sometimes there isn't a perfect box to put you in.Your fate should not be determined by a doctor wanting to check a certain box and use that to make decisions that make themselves feel comfortable.Of course, ideally, you can find a supportive provider, but if you cannot, that does not mean that you can't call all the shots. You may rupture it, but it's not always, in fact, not usually some dramatic event. My most dramatic birth was before my special scar and surgery. So keep an open mind. Use the knowledge that you gained to instill confidence in yourself. Not getting your VBAC as a disappointment, but if you go in with the right mindset, it can be beautiful and meeting my third daughter was finally the happiest day of my life.Meagan: Oh, my goodness. I love hearing that. That whole end, I just closed my eyes and can hear you speak. And I was like, yes, all of these things are so, true. And I love that you point out that yes, you had a third C-section. Was it what you wanted in the beginning? Would you have wanted a vaginal birth? I'm sure you did. But, this is what I felt and you followed your intuition yet again. I feel like, along the story, but all stories of, intuition, intuition, intuition. And then hearing that you can have a healing experience. I think that is so important to point out that it can be healing. It can be absolutely healing. And I love that it was for you. I love that you were able to have your husband there and look back and be like, "No, I'm amazing." And you should be really proud of all the work you did, all the research you did advocating for yourself. It's not very easy to advocate for yourself. And I love the message that you gave to the other Women of Strength. Like, learn and advocate for yourself. Know the patient's rights.Chrissie: Yeah. Sarah: I think that's what was so unique and so awesome about your story, Chrissie, because even from  us starting to work together from the beginning, you just knew what you wanted, and you weren't afraid to say that. And you told me kind of like, "Hey, look, this is fine." Like you said, I gave you my packet and all of my welcome stuff for my normal clients. And you were like, "Look, I've done this before, and I know exactly what I want, and I know how I want to go forward with this birth." You were just so empowered and confident on your own, and I was just so excited to be along with you. And obviously, like, every birth doula wants to be there for the physical birth, but we also have to listen to our clients and respect their choices and decisions. When you were like, "Hey, we're going to the hospital, but don't come yet," it's hard to hear that. I was like, "Okay," but you knew exactly where you stood and what you want it. And, you know, I think that's just really awesome and amazing to have clients like you who are totally aware of, like Meagan was saying, your intuition and how you were feeling. So, you know, I think you have such an empowering story, and our stories can really go a long way, and you're gonna be that voice for people who are feeling so similar.Yeah, absolutely. It's hard to hear sometimes. Cause you're like, "That sounds so amazing. I would want to do that, but it can't." I think that's how a lot of people think. "Oh, that's good. She must have a strong personality." You don't have to have a strong personality to stand up and advocate for yourself in a lot of ways. I think a lot of it stemmed from you being informed along the way. You were informed. You knew your rights, you knew the evidence along things. I mean, here you are talking about them, and that's super important. It comes down with that education, because I do feel like the education is what helps us feel empowered enough to stand up and say what we do and don't want.Chrissie: I really don't have a strong personality at all. I was always very intimidated, trying to pump myself up for the next week of whatever week it was, visiting the OB practice, like, "Oh God, who am I going to see today?" But I just approached it with full knowledge of everything that's out there, as far as I know, because I've been researching it for a long time and just knowing my rights, I guess, I know that they know what they can and can't do to me.You can't force someone to have surgery if they're not ready for it. A C-section is a major surgery so I just knew to stand my ground in a polite and respectful way. Eventually, at the end of the wire, someone stood up for me in the practice, and I was very grateful for her because she gave me the last final push I needed to just wait for things to happen.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you should be so proud of yourself and I'm so happy for you.And how was this postpartum? How's it been?Chrissie: It's been like, nothing.I mean, I have a third newborn, but I don't for some reason with me, subsequent C-sections, the debilitating pain is not there from what I experienced with the first one. I don't know if there are just so many nerve endings that are not there anymore or I don't know why. It's been super busy. So I don't even have time to think about what could have been or any feeling or thoughts. Thoughts about how I wish I could be feeling differently. But, yeah, very busy with the third and just so happy to have her with us today.Well, I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. I'm glad that even though you maybe didn't have Sarah during your birth, you had her along the way because I truly do feel like having that sounding board in that doula and that support along pregnancy can really impact and motivate people to learn how to trust that intuition and learn what they need to do and what's right for them.Chrissie: Yes, and she's actually helped me since birth because I didn't ask her to come during it. She has come and hung out with my kids and me so I could do certain errands or tasks. Our kids are actually obsessed with each other now, so it's kind of nice. Yeah.Sarah: Yeah. We bonded even more postpartum and now our daughters are movie night buddies, and they all like to play together.Meagan: That is so fun. I love hearing that. That is something that I tell my clients when they hire me. I'm like, "Hey, listen, you do not have to be my best friend, but I want you to know that I'm your lifelong friend." I feel like that just right there sums it up. Like, really. No, not everybody's going to be having their kids play together but I love that relationships can form and create in this manner.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Okay, you too. Well, thank you again so much for being with us today.Chrissie: Thanks for picking my story.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Darrell Martin is an OB/GYN with four decades of expertise in women's health and the author of the bestselling memoir “In Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth Rights.” In this episode, Dr. Martin and Meagan walk down memory lane talking about differences in birth from when he started practicing to when he retired. He even testified before Congress to fight for the rights of Certified Nurse Midwives and for patients' freedom to select their healthcare providers! Dr. Martin also touches on the important role of doulas and why midwifery observation is a huge asset during a VBAC.Dr. Martin's TikTokIn Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth RightsDr. Martin's WebsiteCoterie DiapersUse code VBAC20 at checkout for 20% off your first order of $40 or more.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have Dr. Darrell Martin joining us today. Dr. Martin hasn't really been in the OB world as of recently, but has years and years and over 5000 babies of experience. He wrote a book called, “In Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth Rights.” We wanted to have him on and talk just a little bit more about this book and his history. That is exactly what he did. He walked us down memory lane, told us lots of crazy stories, and good stories, and things they did along the way to really advocate for birth rights and midwives in their area. Dr. Darrell Martin is a gynecologist, a dedicated healthcare advocate with four decades of expertise in women's health, and the author of the bestselling memoir, “In Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth Rights.” His dedication to patient care and choice propelled him to testify before Congress, championing the rights of Certified Nurse Midwives (CNMs) and advocating for patients' freedom to select their healthcare providers. A standout moment in his career was his fervent support for nurse-midwifery in Nashville, Tennessee, showcasing his commitment to advancing the profession. Additionally, Dr. Martin takes great pride in having played a pivotal role, in like I said, more than 5,000 births, marking a legacy of life and joy he has helped bring into the world.Our interview was wonderful. We really walked down what he had seen and what he had gone through to testify before Congress. We also talked about being safe with your provider, and the time that he put into his patients. We know that today we don't have the time with our providers and a lot of time with OBs because of hospital time and restricting how many patients they see per day and all of those things. But really, he encourages you to find a provider who you feel safe with and trust. I am excited for you guys to hear today's episode. I would love to hear what your thoughts were, but definitely check out the book, “In Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth Rights.”Meagan: Okay, you guys. I really am so excited to be recording with Dr. Martin today. We actually met a month ago from the time of this recording just to chitchat and get a better feel for one another. I hung up and was like, “Yes. Yes. I am so excited to be talking with Dr. Martin. You guys, he has been through quite the journey which you can learn a lot more about in more depth through his book. We are going to talk right there really quick. Dr. Martin, welcome to the show. Can we dive into your book very first? Dr. Darrell Martin: Surely. Thank you. Meagan: Yeah. I think your book goes with who you are and your history, so we will cover both. Dr. Darrell Martin: Okay, okay. Meagan: Tell us more. Darrell Martin's book is “In Good Hands”. First of all, I have to say that I love the picture. It's baby's little head. It's just so awesome. Okay, we've got “In Good Hands: A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery and Birth Rights.” Just right there, that title is so powerful. I feel like with VBAC specifically, if we are going to dive into VBAC specifically, there are a lot of barriers that need to be broken within the world of birth. We need to keep understanding our birth rights. We also have had many people who have had their rights taken away as midwives. They can't even help someone who wants to VBAC in a lot of areas. A lot of power is in this book. Tell us a little bit more about this book and how it came about. Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, the book came because of patients. As I was heading into my final run prior to retirement, that last 6-8 months, and I use that term, but it shouldn't be patient. It should be client because patient would imply that they have an illness. Occasionally, they do have some problems, but in reality, they are first the client wanting a service. I thought my role as to provide this service and listen to them about what that was and what they wanted to have occur. In response to the question of what was I going to do when I retired, I just almost casually said, “I'm going to write a book.” The book evolved into the story of my life because so much of the patients and clients when they would come to me were sharing their life, and they were sharing what was going on in their life. Amazingly, it was always amazing to me that in 3 or 4 minutes of an initial meeting, they would sometimes open up about their deepest, darkest secrets and it was a safe place for them to share. I always was blown away with that. I respected that. Many times there were friends of my wife who would come in. I would not dare share a single thing notwithstanding the fact that there were HIPAA regulations, but the right thing was they were sharing with me their life. I thought, “I'm going to turn that around as much as I can by sharing my life with them.” It was an homage to that group of individuals so I would like them to see where I was coming from as I was helping them. That was the goal. That was the intent. Secondarily, for my grandchildren and hopefully the great-grandchildren that come whether I'm here or not because including them with that was the history of my entire American heritage and my grandfather coming over or as we would call him Nono, coming over to the United States and to a better place to better a life for his family. Our name was changed from Marta to Martin at Ellis Island. I wanted that story of his sacrifice for his family and subsequently my uncles' sacrifice and my parents' sacrifice for the priority they placed on families. That was for my children as well and grandchildren. There were a lot of old pictures that we had that we pulled out and that didn't occur in the book because there wasn't enough money to produce a lot of those pictures into the book, but they will be there in a separate place for my kids and grandkids. It was a two-fold reason to do the book. It started just as a narrative. I started typing away. The one funny ironic, and I don't know if ironic is the right word, story as I was growing up, is that people as my why I become an OB/GYN. I'm sure this was not the reason, but it's interesting as I reflected that growing up, it was apparently difficult for my mother to have me. I was her only child. She always would say I was spoiled nice, but I was definitely spoiled. When she was mad at me, the one thing she would say, and I didn't understand it until much later when I was actually probably in medical school, was that I was a dry birth and I was breech, and I just ruined her bottom. When she really got aggravated occasionally, she would say those little words to me as I was probably a teenager. Then on reflection, I became an OB/GYN so I really understood what she was saying then. Meagan: It was interesting that you said the words “dry birth” because my mom, when my water broke with my second, she was telling me that I was going to have this dry birth. She was like, “If you don't go in, you're going to have this dry birth.” So many people I have said that to are like, “What? I have never heard of that in my entire life,” and you just said that, so it really was a thing. It really was something that was said. Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes. It was a term back then in the late 40s to late 50s I guess. Meagan: Crazy. So you were inspired. You decided to do the OB route. Tell us a little bit of how that started and then how you changed over the years. Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, when I was in med school, and I went to West Virginia University Medical School, principally, it was fortunate because I would say in retrospect, they were probably lower middle class. I had the opportunity to go to West Virginia. Literally, my tuition per semester was $500. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Dr. Darrell Martin: My parents didn't have to dig into money they didn't have. They never had to borrow any money, so I was fortunate. I did have a scholarship to college. They didn't have to put out the money with the little they had saved. The affordability was there and never an issue. I went to West Virginia, and in my second year, I guess I connected a little bit with some of the docs and some of the chair of the department in West Virginia, Dr. Walter Bonnie, who I didn't realize at the time had left. He was the chairman of Vanderbilt before he was the chairman of West Virginia so now I understand why he was pointing me to either go to Vanderbilt or to Duke. I think I'm fortunate that I went to Vanderbilt. In spite of everything that happened, it was the path I was supposed to take. I did a little rotation as a 2nd-year medical student with some private OBs. I was just amazed. I was enthralled by the intervention of the episiotomies I observed. I said, “Well, you're going to learn how to sew.” What really struck me was that I went into this. I still can picture it. It was a large room where there were probably four or six women laboring. They had almost one of the baby beds. They had the thing where you can pull up the sides so someone couldn't get out of the bed. I couldn't figure out why someone in labor was like this. There was a lady there. I'll never forget. She had been given scopolamine which is the amnesiac which was often used where women sometimes don't even know where they are. They don't even have memory of where they are. She was underneath the bed on all fours barking like a dog. I asked him, “Why are you not going to let her husband in here?” They were saying things they probably shouldn't say under the influence of these crazy drugs. It made me start thinking even from that point on, “Why are they doing this? Why are they zapping them so much in the way of drugs?” Then I didn't see or understand fetal monitoring. We didn't have it at West Virginia. It came in my residency. It had just come in the first year prior to that, and the new maternal-fetal head at Vanderbilt brought in fetal monitoring. He had done some of the original research with Dr. Han at Yale. What I was doing a medical student during my rotations was sitting at the bedside. That's what we as medical students were responsible to do. Sit at the bedside. Palpate the abdomen. Sit with the fetoscope, the little one you stick around your head and put down, and count the heartbeats. We would be there six or eight hours. We were responsible for drawing all of the blood, but more importantly, we were there observing labor. Albeit, they weren't allowed to get up, but it was just the connection and I loved that connection. I loved that sense of connecting with people, and then that evolved into you connecting with them when they come back for their visits. I've had quite a few people who I've seen for 20, 30, 35 years annually. That became a much more than just doing a pelvic exam, blah, blah, blah. It became a connection. It was a communication of, “What's going on in your life? What's happening?” Meagan: A true friendship. Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes. Meagan: It became true friendships with these parents and these mothers. I think that says a lot about you as a provider. Yeah. That makes us feel more connected and safe. Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah. I desperately miss that. I still miss that as a vocation and that connection. I would look forward to it. I would look on the schedule, “Who's coming in?” I could remember things about them that we would deal with for 15 years or more. One client of mine who, we would begin by, “How are you doing?” We would still go back to when her son was at a college in Florida and was on a bicycle and got hit and killed. We were relating and discussing that 15 years later. It was a place where she knew that we would go back to that point and talk a little bit about her feelings and it's much more important to me. If everything's fine doing a breast exam and doing a pelvic exam, listening to the heart and lungs, that's all normal and perfunctory. It's important, but what's really important is that connection. My goal also was, if I could, to leave the person as they went out the door laughing and to try to say something to cheer them up, to be entertaining, not to make light of their situation if obviously they had a bad problem, but still to say as they would leave with a smile on their face or a little laugh, but the funny one, I still remember this. We had instituted all of these forms. It would drive me crazy if I went to the doctor. We had all of these forms with all of these questions. They were repetitive every year. You just couldn't say that it was the same. She came in. She was laughing. She said, “These forms are crazy. It's asking me do I have a gun at home?” I said, thinking about it, in my ignorance, I hadn't reviewed every single question of these 15 pages that they were going to get. I'm sure it was about depression and to pick up on depression if they have a gun at home. She laughed. She said, “The young lady who was asking me the questions said, ‘Do you have a gun at home?' I said, ‘No, I have it right here in my purse. Would you like to see it?'” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Dr. Darrell Martin: So it was just joking about how she really got the person flustered who was asking the question. Sometimes we ask questions in those forms that are a little over the top. Meagan: Yeah. What I'm noticing is that you spent time with your patients not even just to get to know them, but you really wanted to get to know them. You didn't just do the checked boxes and the forms. It was to really get to know them. We talked about finding a good practice last time. What does that look like? What can we do? What are things to do? What is the routine that is normal for every provider's office or is there a normal routine for every provider's office? From someone coming in and wanting an experience like what you provide, how can we look for that? How can we seek that?Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, what you're saying and particularly when it evolves into having a chat, is first trust. you want to trust your provider. If you don't trust, you're anxious. We know that anxiety can produce a lot of issues. I would often tell a client who was already pregnant let's say as opposed to what should be done before they get pregnant. I would say they are getting ready to take a big test, and that test is having a baby. I said, “It's like a pass/fail. You're all going to pass. What do you want to have happen? You need to be comfortable and learn as much as you can and have people alongside you that you trust so that it is a great experience.” The second one, I'm sure you've seen this is that sometimes you just worry that people get so rigid in what they want, and then they feel like a failure if it doesn't happen. We want to avoid that because that can lead to a lot of postpartum depression and things that last. They feel like a failure. That should never happen. That should never happen. They should understand that they have a pathway and a plan. If they trust who's there with them, what ends up happening is okay. It's not that they've been misled which is then where the plan is altered by not a good reason maybe, but it's been altered and it really throws them for a loop. Meagan: Yeah. Dr. Darrell Martin: I think in preparation, first they've got to know what their surroundings are. They start off. Ideally, someone's thinking about getting pregnant before they get pregnant. I've had enough clients who, when we start talking about birth control, and I'll say, “Are you sexually active?” “Yes.” “Are you using anything for birth control?” “No, I don't want to use anything for birth control.” I said, “Do you want to get pregnant?” “No.” I said, “Well, that's not equal. A, you're not having intercourse and B, you're not using anything, so eventually, you're going to get pregnant. You need to start planning for that outcome, but the prep work ahead of time is to know your surrounding. You've got to know what you know and you've got to know what you want. You really should be seeking some advice of close friends who you trust who have been through and experienced it in a positive way. You've got to know what your town where you live is like. Is there one hospital or two hospitals? What are the hospitals like?” Someone told me one time that I should just write a book about what to do before you get pregnant. Meagan: Yeah, well it's a big deal. Before you get pregnant is what really can set us up for the end too because if we don't prep and we're not educating ourselves before, and we don't know what we're getting into, we don't know our options. That can set us up for a less-ideal position. Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah. I think that's where the role of a doula can come into play. I hate to say it this way, but if they're going to go to the provider's office, they're not going to get that kind of exchange in that length of time to really settle in to what it is what that plan is going to be like. To be honest, most of the providers are not going to spend the time to do that. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. The experience that you gave in getting to know people on that level is not as likely these days. OBs are limited to 7-10 minutes per visit?Dr. Darrell Martin: That's on a good day probably. Meagan: See? Yeah. Dr. Darrell Martin: You're being really kind right there. You're being really kind. It's just amazing. Sometimes you're a victim of your own success. If you're spending more time, and you're involved with that, then you've got to make a decision in your practice of how many people you're going to see. If you're seeing a certain amount, then the more you see, what's going to happen to them? You have control of your own situation, but then often you feel the need to have other partners and other associates, and then it gets too business-like. Smaller, to me, is better. The only problem with small with obstetrics is we know that if it's a solo practice, for example, someone will say, “I'm going to this doctor here because I want to see he or she the whole time.” I say, “You've got to think about that. Is that person going to be on-call 365 days a year?” Then what happens later on in the pregnancy when that becomes more of a concern to the client, they'll ask. They'll say, “Well, I'm on-call every Thursday and one weekend out of four.” They freak out. They get really anxious. “What's going to happen? I just know you.” They'll say, “I'm on-call on Thursday. I do inductions on Thursday.” So it leads into that path of wanting that provider. So then to get that provider, they're going to be induced. And we know that that at least doubles the rate of C-sections, at least, depending on how patient or not patient they are.Meagan: I was going to say they've got this little ARRIVE trial saying, "Oh, it doesn't. It lowers it. But what people don't really know is how much time these ARRIVE trial patients were really given. And so when you say that time is what is not given, but it's needed for a vaginal birth a lot of the times with these inductions.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes, yes, if the induction is even indicated to begin with because the quality assurance, a lot of hospitals, you have to justify the induction. But it doesn't really happen that way. I mean, if there's a group of physicians that are all doing the same thing, they're not going to call each other out.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Darrell Martin: It's just going to continue to happen is there're 39 weeks. I love how exactly they know how big the baby's going to be. But even more importantly, how big can this person have? I mean, there are no correlations. There are no real correlations. I can remember before ultrasound, we were taught pelvimetry. the old X-ray and you see what the inner spinous distance is, but you still don't know for sure what size has going to come through there.Meagan: Oh right. Well, and we know that through movement, which what you were seeing in the beginning of your OB days in your schooling, they didn't move. They put them in the bed. They put them in a bed and sat them in the bed. So now we're seeing movement, but there's still a lack of education in position of baby. And so we're getting the CPD diagnosis left and right and being told that we'll never get a baby out of our pelvis or our baby's too large to fit through it, when in a lot of situations it's just movement and changing it up and recognizing a baby in a poor position. An asynclitic baby is not going to have as easy as a time as a baby coming down in an OA, nice, tucked position. Right?Dr. Darrell Martin: Exactly. Exactly. There was the old Friedman Curve and if you went off the Friedman Curve, I was always remarked it's 1.2 centimeters, I think prime at 1.5 per hour. But I can never figure out what 0.2 two was when you do a pelvic exam. What is that really? Is the head applied against the cervix? So it's all relative. It's not that exact. But no, I think that if a person could find a person they trust who knows the environment, I think that's where the value of a really good doula can help because they're emotionally connected to the couple, but they're not as connected as husband and wife are or someone else.Meagan: Or a sister or a friend.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes. And that may be their first shot at that sister of being in a room like that other maybe her own child. It's nice to have someone with a lot more experience that can stand in the gap when they're emotionally distraught, maybe the husband is. He's sweating it out. He's afraid of what he's going to say sometimes. And then she's hurting and she needs that person who can be just subjective to  stand in the gap for her when they're trying to push the buttons in the wrong direction or play on their emotions a little too much.Meagan: Yeah. I love that you pointed that out. We actually talked about that in our course because a lot of people are like, "Oh, no, it's okay. I can just hire my friend or my sister." And although those people are so wonderful, there is something very different about having a doula who is trained and educated and can connect with you, but also disconnect and see other options over here.So we just kind of were going a little bit into induction and things like that. And when we talked a couple weeks ago, we talked about why less is better when it comes to giving medicine or induction to VBAC or not. We talked about it impeding the natural process. Can you elaborate more on that? On both. Why less is more, but then also VBAC and induction. What's ideal for that? What did you use back then?Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, we're going back a long time.Meagan: No, I know, I know.Dr. Darrell Martin: We're going back a long time. See, that would be like what you just did was give me about three questions in one that would be like being on a defensive stand on trial. And then you're trying to figure out where the attorney going, and he sets you up with three questions in one, and then you know you're in trouble when he does that.Meagan: I'm finding that I'm really good at doing that. Asking one question with three questions or five questions?Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes.Meagan: So, okay, let's talk about less is more. Why is less more?Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, first of all, you can observe the natural process of labor. Anytime you intervene with whatever medication-wise or epidural-wise, you're altering the natural course. I mean, that to me it just makes sense. I mean, those things never occurred years ago. So you are intervening in a natural course. And you then have got to factor that in to see how much is that hindering the labor process? Would it have been hindered if you hadn't done that? If you'd allow them to walk, if you allowed them to move? The natural observation of labor makes a lot more sense than the intervention where you've then got to figure out, is the cause of the arrest of labor, so to speak, is it because of the intervention or was it really going to occur?Meagan: Light bulb.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes.Meagan: That's an interesting concept to think about.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah. And you want to be careful because it's another little joke. I say you just don't want to give the client/patient a silver bullet. Often I've had husbands say, "Well, they don't need any medicines." You have to be careful what you're saying because you're not the one in labor. But I wouldn't say that quite to them. But they got the picture really quickly when their wife, their spouse, lashed back out at them.Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Darrell Martin: So you can come over here and sit and see how you like it. I can still remember doing a Lamaze class with Sandy, and we also did Bradley class because I wanted to experience it all. She was the first person to deliver at Vanderbilt without any medication using those techniques. And when we would do that little bit of teaching, I can remember doing that when they would try to show a guy by pinching him for like 30 seconds and increasing the intensities to do their breathing, maybe they should have had something else pinched to make them realize-- Meagan: How intense.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah. How intense it isMeagan: Yeah.Dr. Darrell Martin: We can't totally experience it. So we have to be empathetic and balance that. And that's where, to me, having that other person can be helpful because I'm sure that that person who is the doula would be meeting and with them multiple times in the antepartum course as opposed to they go into labor and if there's a physician delivery, chances are their support person is going to be a nurse they've never met before or maybe multiple ones who come in and out and in and out and in and out, and they're not there like someone else would be. To me that's suboptimal, but that's the way it works. And I observed the first birth. I didn't tell the people at the hospital for my daughter-in-law that I was an obstetrician.Meagan: And yeah you guys, a little backstory. He was a doula at his daughter-in-law's birth.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes. But her first birth did not turn out that well at an unnamed hospital. She didn't want to come to my practice because they weren't married that long and that's getting into their business a little bit. Plus, she lived on the north side of town and I was on the south side. So she chose, a midwifery group, but the midwife was not in there very much. I mean, she was responsible. They were doing probably 15 to 20 births per midwife.Meagan: Wow.Dr. Darrell Martin: They were becoming like a resident, really. They were not doing anything a whole lot differently. And then she had a fourth degree, and she then, in my opinion, got chased out of the hospital the next day and ended up turning around a day later and coming back with preeclampsia. I heard she had some family history of hypertension. I had to be careful because I'm the father-in-law. I'm saying, "Well, maybe you shouldn't go home." And then she ends up going back. And she didn't have HELLP syndrome, but she was pretty sick there for a day or two. That was unfortunate because she went home, and then she had to go right back and there's the baby at home because the baby can't go back into the hospital. And so her second birth, because it was such a traumatic experience with the fourth degree, she elected to use our group and wanted one of my partners to electively section her. She did the trauma of that fourth degree. That was so great. So she did. But obviously, she had a proven pelvis because she had a first vaginal delivery. And then she came to me and she said, "I want to do a VBAC." And so I said, "Oh, that's great." And so one of my partners was there with her, but my son got a little bit antsy and a little bit sick, so he kind of left the room. I was the support person through the delivery. That was my opportunity to be a doula. And of course, she delivered without any medication and without an episiotomy and did fine. Meagan: Awesome.Dr. Darrell Martin: And a bigger baby than the one that was first time.Meagan: Hey, see? That's awesome. I love that.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yes.Meagan: So it happens.So we talked a little bit about midwives, and we talked about right here "A Doctor's Story of Breaking Barriers for Midwifery". Talk to us about breaking barriers for midwifery. And what are your thoughts one on midwives, but two, midwives being restricted to support VBAC?Dr. Darrell Martin: Okay, that's two questions again.Meagan: Yep. Count on me to do that to you.Dr. Darrell Martin: I'll flip to the second one there. I think it's illogical to not allow a midwife to be involved with a VBAC. That makes no sense to me at all because if anybody needs more observation in the birth process, it would potentially or theoretically actually be someone who's had a prior C-section. Right? There's a little bit more risk for a rupture that needs more observation, doesn't need someone in and out, in and out of the room. The physician is going to be required to be in-house or at least when we were doing them, they were required to be in house and there was the ability to do a section pretty quickly. But observation can really mitigate that rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. I've had midwives do breeches with me and I've had them do vaginal twins. If I'm there, they can do it just as well as I can. I'm observing everything that's happening and they should know how to do shoulder dystocia. One thing that you cannot be totally predictive of and doctors don't have to be in the hospital for the most part in hospitals. Hopefully, there probably are some where they're required, but it makes no sense and they're able to do those. So if I'm there observing because the hospital is going to require that, and I think that's not a bad thing. I never would be opposed or would never advocate that I shouldn't be there for a VBAC. But I think to have the support person and that be the midwife is going to continue and do the delivery, I think that's great. There's no logic of what they're going to do unless that doctor is just going to decide that they're going to play a midwife role and that they're going to be there in that room. They're advocating that role to a nurse or multiple nurses who the person doesn't know, never met them before, and so that trust is not there. They're already stressed. The family's stressed. There are probably some in-laws or relatives out there and they say, "Well, you're crazy. Why are you doing this for? Why don't you just have a section?" Everybody has an opinion, right? So there's a lot of family. I would observe that they're sitting out there and we've got into that even back then that's a society that some of them don't want to be there, but they feel obliged to be out there waiting for a birth to occur. Right. When four hours goes by, "Oh, oh, there must be a problem. Why aren't they doing something?" You hear that all the time. I try to say, "Well, first labor can be 16 to 20 hours." "16 to 20 hours?" and then they think, "I'm going to be here for that long."Meagan: Yeah.Dr. Darrell Martin: So there's always that push at times from family about things aren't moving quickly.Meagan: Right.Dr. Darrell Martin: They're moving naturally, but their frame of reference is not appropriate for what's occurring. They don't really understand. And so that's the answer. Yes. I think that it makes no sense that midwives are not involved. That does not make any sense at all.So the first part of the question was what happened with me and midwives?Meagan: Well, breaking barriers for midwifery. There are so many people out there who are still restricted to not be able to support VBAC. I mean, we have hospital midwives here in Utah that can't even support VBAC. The OBs are just completely restricting them. What do you mean when you say breaking barriers for midwifery and birth rights?Dr. Darrell Martin: Okay, what I meant was this is now in late 1970, 79, 80. And I'd observe midwifery care because as residents, we were taking care of individuals at three different hospitals, one of which was Nashville General, which was a hospital where predominantly that was indigent care, women with no insurance. And we had a program there with midwives.Dr. Darrell Martin: And so we were their backup. I was their backup for my senior residency, chief residency, and subsequently, as an attending because I was an attending teaching medical students and residents and really not teaching midwives, just observing them if they needed anything, within the house most of the time, principally for the medical students and the junior residents. But I saw their outcomes, how great they were. I saw the connection that occurred. We didn't have a residency program where you saw the same people every time then. It was just purely a rotation. You would catch people and it just became seeing 50 or 75 people and just try to get them in and out. But then you observe over here and watch what happens with the midwifery group and the lack of intervention and the great outcomes because they had to keep statistics to prove what they were doing. Right? Meagan: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure. Dr. Darrell Martin: They were required to do that, and you would see that the outcomes were so much better. Then it evolved because a lot of those women over the course of the years prior to me being there and has evolved while I was there, I was befriended by one midwife. She was a nurse in labor and delivery who then went on to midwifery school. We became really close friends. Her family and my family became very close. They had people, first of all, physicians' wives who wanted to use them and friends in the neighborhood who wanted to use them, but they had insurance and people that had delivered there who then were able to get a job and had insurance and wanted to use them again, but they couldn't at the indigent hospital. You had to not have insurance. So there was no vehicle for them in Nashville to do birth. We advocated for a new program at Vanderbilt where they could do that and at the same time do something that's finally occurring now and that's how midwives teach medical students and teach residents normal birth because that's the way you develop the connection that moves on into private practice is they see their validity at that level and that becomes a really essentially part of what they want to do when they leave. They don't see them as competition as much. Still, sometimes it's competition. So anyhow, at that point, our third hospital was relatively new. The Baptist private hospital run by the private doctors where the deliveries at that point were the typical ones with amnesiac, no father in the room, an episiotomy, and forceps. So when we tried to do the program, the chairman-- and we subsequently found some of this information out. It wasn't totally aware at the time. They were given a choice by the private hospital. Either you continue to have residents at the private hospital or you have the midwifery private program at Vanderbilt. But you can't have both. If you're going to do that, you can't have residence over here. So they were using the political pressure to stop it from happening. Then I said, they approached myself and the two doctors, partners, I was working with in Hendersonville which is a little suburb north of town. We had just had a new hospital start there and we were the only group so that gave us a lot of liberties. I mean, we started a program for children of birth with birthing rooms, no routine episiotomies, all walking in labor, and all the things you couldn't do downtown. Well, the problem was we wanted midwives in into practice but we didn't have the money to pay them. We were brand new. So we had a discussion and they said, "Well, we want to start our own business." And I said, "Oh." And I kind of joked, I said, "Well that's fine, I can be your employee then." And that was fine for us. I mean, we had no problem being their consultant because someone asked, "Well, how can you let that happen?" I said, "We still have control of the medical issues. We can still have a discussion and they can't run crazy. They're not going to do things that we don't agree with just because they're paying for the receptionists and they're taking ownership of their practice." So they opened their doors on Music Row in Nashville.Meagan: Awesome.Dr. Darrell Martin: But as soon as that started happening and they announced it, at that time, the only insurance carrier for malpractice in the state of Georgia was State Volunteer Mutual which was physician-owned because of the crisis so they couldn't get any insurance the other way a physician couldn't unless it was through the physician-owned carrier. Well, one of the persons who was just appointed to the board was a, well I would call an establishment old-guard, obstetrician/gynecologist from Nashville. And he said in front of multiple people that he was going to set midwifery back 100 years, and he was going to get my malpractice insurance. He was going to take my malpractice insurance away.Meagan: Wow.Dr. Darrell Martin: For practicing with midwife. And that was in the spring of the year. Well, by October of that year, he did take my malpractice insurance. They did.Meagan: Wow. For working with midwives? Dr. Darrell Martin: For risks of undue proportion. Yes. The Congressman for one of the midwives was Al Gore, and in December of that year we had a congressional hearing in D.C. where we testified. The Federal Trade Commission got involved. The Federal Trade Commission had them required the malpractice carrier to open their books for five years. And what that did was it stopped attacks across the United States. There were multiple attacks going on all across the country trying to block midwives from practicing independently or otherwise. And so from 1980-83, when subsequently a litigation was settled, the malpractice carrier, including the physicians who were involved, all admitted guilt before it went to the Supreme Court. I went through a few years there and that's where you see some of those stories where I was blackballed and had to figure out a place where I was going to work. I almost went back to school. This is a little funny story. I was pointed in the direction of Dr. Miller who was the head of Maternal Child Health at Chapel Hill University of North Carolina. I didn't realize that then two months later, he testified before Congress as well because he wanted me to come there. I interviewed and then I would get my PhD and do the studies that would disprove all the routine things that physicians were doing to couples. I would run those studies. It was a safe space. It was a safe place, a beautiful place in Chapel Hill. So he told me, he said, "You need to meet with my manager assistant and she'll talk to you about your stipend, etc." Now I had three children under four years of age.Meagan: Wow, you were busy.Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, the first one was adopted through one of the friends I was in school with, so we had two children seven months apart because Sandy was pregnant and had like four or five miscarriages before.Meagan: Wow.Dr. Darrell Martin: So I had three under four. So she proceeded to say, "Well Dr. Martin, this is great. Here's your stipend and I have some good news for you." I said, "Well, what's that?" He said, "Well, you're going to get qualified for food stamps." That's good news? Okay. So I'm trying to support my three children and my wife. I said, "I can't do that. As much as I would love to go to this safe place," and Chapel Hill would have been a safe place because it would have been an academia, but then I had to find a place to work. So it was just how through my faith, it got to the point where know ending up in Atlanta, I was able to not only do everything I wanted to do, but one of the midwives that I worked with, Vicki Henderson Bursman won the award from the midwifery college. And the year after, I received the Lewis Hellman Award for supporting midwives from ACOG and AC&M. But we prayed. We said, "One day we're going to work together." And this was 1980. In 93, when we settled the lawsuit, we reconnected. I was chairman of a private school, and we hired her husband to come to Atlanta to work at the school. Two weeks, three weeks later, I get a call from the administrator of the hospital in Emory who was running the indigent project at the hospital we were working at teaching residents. They said that they wanted to double the money. Their contract was up and they wanted double what they had been given. So the hospital refused and they asked me to do the program. We didn't have any other place to go. And then what was happening? Well, Rick was coming to Atlanta, but so was Vicki. So Vicki, who I hadn't worked with for 13 years, never was able to work, came and for the next 20 years, worked in Atlanta with me. And we did. She ran basically the women's community care project, and then also worked in the private practice. And then the last person, Susie Soshmore, who was the other midwife, really couldn't leave Nashville. She was much, much more, and rightly so, she was bitter about what happened and never practiced midwifery. Her husband was retiring. She decided since they were going to Florida to Panama City, that she wanted to get back and actually start doing midwifery, but she needed to be re-credentialed. So she came and spent six months with us in Atlanta as we re-credentialed her and she worked with us. So ultimately we all three did get to work together.Meagan: That's awesome. Wow. What a journey. What a journey you have been on.Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah, it was quite a journey.Meagan: Yeah. It's so crazy to me to hear that someone would actively try to make sure that midwifery care wasn't a thing. It's just so crazy to me, and I think it's probably still happening. It's probably still happening here in 2024. I don't know why midwives get such a bad rap, but like you said, you saw with the studies, their outcomes were typically better. Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah.Meagan: Why are we ignoring that?Dr. Darrell Martin: Doctors were pretty cocky back then. They may be more subtle about what they do now because to overtly say they're going to get your malpractice insurance, that's restricted trade.Meagan: Yeah. That's intense.Dr. Darrell Martin: Intense. Well, it's illegal to start with.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right?Dr. Darrell Martin: If you attack the doctor, you get the midwife. They tried to attack the policies and procedures. That was the other thing they were threatening to do was, "Well, if you still come here, we're going to close the birthing room. We're going to require women to stay flat in bed. We require episiotomies. We require preps and enemas." Well, they wouldn't require episiotomies, but certainly preps and enemas and continuous monitoring just to make it uncomfortable and another way to have midwives not want to work there.Meagan:  Yes. I just want to Do a big eye-roll with all of that. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your history and these stories and giving some tips on trusting our providers and hiring a doula. I mean, we love OBs too, but definitely check out midwives and midwives, if you're out there and you're listening and you want to learn how to get involved in your community, get involved with supportive OBs like Dr. Martin and you never know, there could be another change. You could open a whole other practice, but still advocate for yourself.I'm trying to think. Are there any final tips that you have for our listeners for them on their journey to VBAC?Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, pre-pregnancy that next time around, we know very quickly that the weight of the baby is controlled by heredity which you really essentially have no control over that including who your husband is. If he's 6'5", 245, their odds are going to be that the baby might be a little bigger. However, you do have control what your pre-pregnancy weight is, and if you get your BMI into a lower range, we know statistically that the baby's probably going to be a little bit smaller, and that gives you a better shot. You don't have control of when you deliver, but you do have control of your weight gain during the pregnancy and you do have control of what your pre-pregnancy weight, which are also factors in the size of the baby. So control what you can control, and trust the rest that it's going to work out the way it should.Meagan:  Yeah, I think just being healthy, being active, getting educated like you said, pre-pregnancy. It is empowering to be educated and prepared both physically, emotionally, and logistically like where you're going, and who you're seeing. All of that before you become pregnant. It really is such a huge benefit. So thank you again for being here with us today. Can you tell us where we can find your book?Dr. Darrell Martin: Yeah, it's available on Amazon. It's available at Books A Million. It's available at Barnes and Noble. So all three of the major sources.Meagan:  Some of the major sources. Yeah. We'll make sure to link those in the show notes. If you guys want to hear more about Dr. Martin's journey and everything that he's got going on in that book, we will have those links right there so you can click and purchase. Thank you so much for your time today.Dr. Darrell Martin: Thank you. I enjoyed it and it went very quickly. It was enjoyable talking to you.Meagan:  It did, didn't it? Just chatting. It's so fun to hear that history of what birth used to be like, and actually how there are still some similarities even here in 2024. We have a lot to improve on. Dr. Darrell Martin: Absolutely, yes. Meagan:  But it's so good to hear and thank you so much for being there for your clients and your customers and patients, whatever anyone wants to call them, along the way, because it sounds like you were really such a great advocate for them.Dr. Darrell Martin: Well, we tried. We tried. It was important that they received the proper care, and that we served them appropriately, and to then they fulfill whatever dream they had for that birth experience or be something they would really enjoy.Meagan:  Yes. Well, thank you again so much.Dr. Darrell Martin: Okay, thank you. I enjoyed talking to you. Good luck, and have fun.Meagan: Thank you.Dr. Darrell Martin: Bye-bye.Meagan: Thank you. You too. Bye.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Julia knew something was off during her first pregnancy and birth experience. She knew she didn't feel right about consenting to a Cesarean, but it wasn't until she started diving into research that she realized how much her care lacked informed consent. She discovered options that should have been offered to her that never were.Julia's research led her to choosing the midwifery model of care in a home birth setting. She felt in control of her experience and free to birth the way she felt she needed to. Meagan and Julia discuss stats on uterine rupture, stillbirth, continuous fetal monitoring, induction, due dates, and how our birthing culture can highly influence what we think is safe versus what scientific evidence actually tells us. Evidence-Based Birth: The Evidence on Due DatesThe Business of Being BornNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Women of Strength I am so excited for today's guest. Our friend, Julia, is from Texas. She is a wife and a stay-at-home mother living in, it Spring, Texas, Julia?Julia: Spring, Texas.Meagan: Close to Houston, yes, with her two sons. And she has had a Cesarean and then an HBAC. We get a lot of questions in our inbox every day, but a really common question is dates. "Hey, I'm 40 weeks. My doctor is telling me I had to have my baby by tomorrow or even approaching 39 weeks." People are being told they have to have their babies or really bad things will happen. And Julia's story is proof that you don't have to have a baby by 40 weeks or 41 weeks, would you say? Almost 42 weeks is what you were. So we are excited to hear this story. And I know if you are one that goes past your due date and you're getting that pressure, you're definitely gonna wanna listen. Julia: Thank you so much for having me, Meagan, I'm really, really happy to be here.Meagan: I'm so happy that you are here. I would just love to have you share your stories.Julia: Okay, so my firstborn, he came during the height of the COVID pandemic. It was August 2020.I just saw my OB who I had been seeing for regular gynecology visits. And from the very first appointment, it just, I just kind of got an off feeling. She had seen a small subchorionic hematoma on my ultrasound at my very first appointment at eight weeks. And she just told me, "Don't Google this. It's going to scare you." She basically just said, "Just enjoy being pregnant now because when you come back next week, you may not be." So as a first-time mom, it was obviously pretty upsetting and caused a lot of anxiety. When I went back for my next appointment, she just kind of shrugged it off after she saw the ultrasound. She just said, "It cleared up on its own." There really wasn't any explanation of how it resolved.But that being said, that start to my prenatal care kind of set the tone for the rest of that pregnancy and birth. From then on there was just a lot of fear-mongering going on, and a lot of problems were brought up that really never turned out to be an issue. Around 20 weeks at the anatomy scan, they saw that my son was in the bottom 10th percentile.She had said that she classified that as IUGR, intrauterine growth restriction. We had a lot of extra testing done. Everything was normal. I felt confident and very comfortable just waiting it out. And that really wasn't what she wanted.Actually, starting around 35 weeks, she had started talking about delivering early. I was pressured at each appointment by my OB and the nurses to stay that day and deliver solely because of his size, even though everything was looking great on the monitors. Keep in mind, you know, during COVID, I wasn't able to have my husband or anyone with me during these appointments. And so just being asked that question each time I came in as a first-time mom by myself was just really hard and made me second guess a lot of things and second guess my intuition. I had explained that, "I think he's just a small baby. He needs more time to grow."She basically just said at my 38-week appointment if I didn't deliver that day, it would not be her fault if my baby died and that she or the hospital was--Meagan: What?! Julie: Right?Meagan: She said that she or the hospital, if I walk out that day, they're not liable if something happens because I'm going against her recommendations. I was even seeing a high-risk doctor as well at that point. And even he was saying, "Everything's looking fine. There's no problem with waiting if you want to."The reason she wanted to schedule the C-section because he was breech. I knew that I wasn't even going to have the opportunity to go into spontaneous labor. There were really no alternatives presented at the time. I knew nothing about out-of-hospital birth or about midwives. She offered an ECV, but she said she didn't recommend it because of his size.She didn't really explain why. So I just kind of felt backed into a corner. I remember I had left the office that day at 38 weeks and called my husband immediately and explained what she had said. We felt like, "Okay, well, I guess, we obviously don't want our baby to die, so maybe we need to just stay." I remember pushing my gut feeling aside the whole time. As they were prepping me, I just felt, This isn't right." I wanted to give my baby more time to grow and also to flip so that I wouldn't be backed into a C-section. Had I known then what I know now, I definitely would have opted for a home birth with my midwife who's trained in breach delivery.Just at the time with COVID, I didn't have the resources or the information, so we went through with the C-section that ended in a four-day hospital stay. I didn't sleep at all. Meagan, I'm not even kidding you. I did not sleep those four days. The nurses were really concerned about the baby's size, even though he was growing. He was actually back to his birth weight by the time we were discharged.But I'll never forget this one-Meagan: That's quick!Julie: Right? I know. And so there was so much fear-mongering, so much uncertainty by medical staff, despite how great my baby was doing. And I remember this nurse frantically coming into the room just a few hours after my C-section with this Medella hospital-grade pump. She was just like, "You need to start pumping now on top of breastfeeding because your baby's small. He's not going to grow."It just kind of left me feeling like, I feel confident in what I'm doing, but now all these medical professionals are telling me like, I'm in danger, my baby's in danger. It triggered a lot of feelings of postpartum anxiety. I really struggled that first year. And so it wasn't a very good experience.I just felt like my power had been taken away in the birthing process and felt defeated and like I didn't have a say for my first birth.Meagan: Yeah, I was just listening to an episode the other day, not on our podcast, on another podcast about that experience after baby is born and that postpartum within the hospital and how crazy it is that sleep is one of the best things we can get when it comes to energy, milk production, getting our babies fed and helping them grow, and doing all these things. But then we're not allowed that time. And then on top of it, it's all the fear-mongering and the doubt when it's like we should be being built up like, "Oh my gosh, look how good you're doing. Look how good this baby's doing. Look how good you're doing. Let's keep doing this." Instead of making you doubt that what you're doing isn't good enough and not letting you sleep and doing all these things. It's just weird to me. It doesn't make sense.Julia: Right, and as a first-time mom, you're just like, okay, they know what's best, obviously. I'm going to listen to them and what do I know about birth? They're the doctors. But yeah, it was just really eye-opening, and I really knew I wanted a completely different experience the next time around.Meagan: Yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame you for wanting a different experience.Julia: So after I had my C section, pretty soon after that, I started digging and doing a lot of research and realized I felt really cheated by the lack of informed consent. I had mentioned that my doctor just had said, "You need a C-section because he's breech."I had no idea that there were even midwives and out-of-hospital birth options where they delivered breech vaginally and not only that, but were highly trained and qualified to do so. I had no idea that in other parts of the world of similar economic status to the US that they were routinely delivering breech babies vaginally with better outcomes than we have here in the US hospitals. So I really didn't feel like there was informed consent there. Even the fact that she didn't even want to try the ECV was upsetting to me. I just felt like I really wish I would have done more research at the time. But I just put all my energy into this next birth. I knew even before I got pregnant that I wanted a VBAC.Pretty early on in the process of my research, I became really fascinated with physiological birth and I knew that I really wanted to experience that. For someone who may not be familiar with that term, physiological birth is natural unmedicated childbirth with no intervention unless medically necessary. It sees birth as a safe biological function rather than a medical event or something that that's inherently dangerous which is how I felt I was treated my whole first pregnancy and birth. I felt like a walking hazard, to be honest, when in reality I was an extremely healthy 25-year-old, first-time mom with a healthy baby with no issues. So the fact that I was gaslit into thinking there was a lot of danger was sad. So I knew that for my next birth I wanted to do a physiological birth and I knew that it would kind of be a fight to achieve in the hospital. I did a lot of research, I watched The Business of Being Born. I read a lot of natural childbirth books. I also knew that on top of the regular hospital policies, I would have some excess restrictions because of the fact that I was a VBAC.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Julia: I did go back to that same OB at first. I presented my birth plan early on to her and it included things like I didn't want an IV. I wanted freedom to eat or drink. I didn't want any drugs whatsoever for pain relief. I didn't want them pushing an epidural. I would have liked a water birth, but I knew that wouldn't have been possible in the hospital. But I at least would have liked water immersion in labor, minimal cervical checks. I wanted to go into spontaneous labor. I wanted no coached pushing and fully delayed cord clamping.I could tell, right away she was more so just VBAC-tolerant rather than supportive. She really used a lot of fear-mongering. Right away she mentioned the uterine rupture risk. She had said, I think she had said she had just had a mom die from a VBAC not too long ago.Meagan: Goodness. Holy moly.Julia: Without any explanation. Who knows where she was going with that? But she had also said, it may be better to just have a repeat C-section because with the risk of rupture, you may need a hysterectomy after giving birth. She commonly used the word TOLAC which also I didn't really like. I didn't want to feel like I was having to try. I felt like I'm planning a VBAC. I don't need to try for it. It is what it is. I wanted someone to encourage me. She really also highly, highly recommended I got an epidural because she said, "Well, with your increased risk of rupture, if something should happen, then they're just gonna have to knock me out."She also said, "Unmedicated moms tear the worst," which was not at all the case for me. She was saying that because it hurts so bad that you just can't control your pushing. I knew all of this was not true. I was kind of in a funny position because I didn't want to be fighting with her, but I knew the evidence in the back of my mind and all of that scary language. I knew it was not evidence-based. I really wanted someone on my team who was really going to believe in me, who knew the evidence, and who believed in my ability to have a VBAC.  I didn't want to spend all of my energy and labor fighting for this VBAC and for this birth experience that I knew was possible and that I knew that I deserved.My heart really had always deep down been set on a home birth from the very beginning. I loved watching home birth videos and hearing positive home birth stories. I just loved everything about it and also about the midwifery model of care and how much more comprehensive that was. I had heard about a local group of midwives on a Facebook group that I'm in for holistic moms in my area. I found out that this group of midwives offered a HypnoBirthing class. So my husband and I signed up for that. We took the six-week course and we just never looked back after that. We knew that a home birth VBAC would be the way to go. I felt deep in my heart confident about it and that's really what I wanted. I just knew I had found my dream birth team.My midwife was just amazing and I just really couldn't imagine birthing anywhere other than in my own home with her and my husband by my side and someone that didn't look at me differently because of my previous Cesarean.Meagan: Right. And I love that you just pointed that out. Someone who didn't look at me differently because of my previous Cesarean. This is the problem, not the problem. It's one of one of the many problems when it comes to providers looking at VBAC moms. We talk about this in our VBAC course. We should just be someone going in and having a baby, but we are not viewed that way. And it's extremely frustrating because not only do they not view us that way, they make us know and feel that they don't view us that way.Julia: Right, right.Meagan: It's just, it feels crummy.Julia: Absolutely. We knew we were making the right decision. I was really excited about the whole thing. That was another thing that I talked to my OB about. I was like, "I'm excited to be in labor. I want to welcome all these sensations of birth. I know it's going to be hard work, but that experience means something to me and I want that." And she had said, "Well, if you ask other moms who had been through labor, they would say it's painful, it's hard." She was basically saying, I shouldn't want this birth experience. I just didn't want to be fighting that or dealing with someone who had this view on birth that it's just this dangerous medical event. I didn't want to go through feeling defeated like I did last time.Meagan: Absolutely. Good for you for recognizing that and then doing what you needed to do to not have that experience.Julia: Right? Thank you.So I had mentioned that I really wanted to go into spontaneous labor. I didn't want to be induced at all. That's another reason why I'm so thankful that I was with my midwife because I went almost all the way to 43 weeks pregnant. I went into labor at 42 weeks and 5 days in the middle of the night. Had I had been with my OB, I'm positive that I would have had to deliver much earlier and I would have probably been scheduled for a repeat C-section. So I'm just really happy that I was with my midwife and I felt really confident about waiting. I had NSTs and BPPs, non-stress tests and biophysical profiles done daily starting at 42 weeks just to monitor baby's health and to make sure that everything is normal and it was.So we just opted to wait for spontaneous labor. I'm really glad that I did so that I could go through with the home birth.Meagan: Absolutely. What you were saying, yeah, I know I probably would have been scheduled Cesarean and definitely would have been pressured. I mean, even if you would have said no, the pressure would have been thick, especially going over 41 weeks.Julia: Right.Meagan: And then, let alone 42.Julia: Right. Yeah. The pressure was there. Everyone was well intentioned, asking, "Have you had your baby yet?" But I was getting these questions as early as like 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I'm like, "Whoa, I'm not even at my due date yet."Everyone was just excited to meet the baby and had friends asking about that. But my immediate family was so supportive and I'm so, so happy that I had that support because just feeling that from my midwife and from my parents and my husband, knowing that they all really believed in me and we were confident with waiting. As long as everything looked good with baby, that was really what was most important. So I just kind of tuned everything else out and tried to relax as much as possible.We just went out to dinner a few times and cherished these last couple weeks as a family of three. It finally happened in the middle of the night at 42 weeks and 5 days. I remember when the contractions were first starting. I'd had some contractions on and off for the past few weeks, but nothing consistent. So I just kind of thought, okay, well, this is just some Braxton Hicks or something like that.I noticed that around 2:00 AM, they started getting more consistent. I told my husband and they were getting more intense and a little closer together. We called our midwife around 6:00 AM and she was like, "Yeah. Sounds like you're in early labor." I was just so, so happy and grateful to be in labor.Yes, it was hard work, but I can honestly say I really enjoyed the experience. I thought it was extremely empowering. I just remember thanking God through the surges. We called them surges in HypnoBirthing. Just knowing the awesome work that my body was doing from within to give birth to my baby. I really, really enjoyed the freedom of just being able to eat and drink in labor freely wherever I wanted in my home without any restricting policies. I wasn't tethered to any IVs or monitors. I think that's another thing. In the hospital, that would have added anxiety seeing the monitor constantly. We know that continuous fetal monitoring isn't really evidence-based and leads to more C-sections. I knew in the hospital that would have been something that would have been required so I'm really glad that that wasn't the case at home. I just think the freedom and the autonomy is really what helped my labor to progress so smoothly without any complications.There weren't people coming in and out of my room, and I just really enjoyed the whole experience. Listening to birth affirmations helped me. I was swaying through the surges. My husband had helped me put up twinkle fairy lights in our room, and we had some flickering votive candles on my dresser. It just created this really nice ambiance and a calming atmosphere.It just felt so good to know that my husband really, truly believed in my ability to do this. I mean, I really have to give him a shout-out because he was right there with me not only through all of labor, but when I knew that I wanted a VBAC from the very beginning, he was right there with me reading all the natural childbirth books, doing all the research on VBAC with me.He was just really supportive. That's something I would say is very important for a VBAC mom is to have a support person who's not just present, but truly supportive of you and knows what you're going to need and does the work with you ahead of time so that you can just focus on laboring and they can be there to make sure you have water, and you're fed if you're hungry, so I was really blessed to have him and to have his full support.Meagan: Absolutely.My husband told me, he said, "I just don't understand." He just didn't understand. I get that he didn't understand, but I love hearing this where we're learning together. I want to say to couples or to partners, even if you don't understand, understand and trust that it's important to your partner and be there for them because, like you were saying, it can make such a big impact in the way you feel, the way you view your birth, and your overall experience.Julia: Right. No, and that's so true because I feel like, most people's support person is their husband, and a lot of men feel like maybe they can't really help as much or just say, "Well, the doctor knows what to do. I'm just here, like, for emotional support."But it's so much more than that. My husband learned ahead of time how to do counter pressure, and I actually really didn't need it. I think he had done it once, but what really helped me the most was just leaning on him. I did that most of the time. Just leaning into him, and letting him support my weight. He also did a really great job of reminding me to just focus on my breathing techniques and just relaxing between the surges.All of those natural pain relief remedies were really, really helpful. I bought a TENS machine and a heating pad, but I ended up not needing any of those.Meagan: But you at least were prepared with them.Julia: I was. Yeah, I was definitely prepared. We also had hung up all my birth affirmations. We had done a lot of meditation and visualization exercises throughout pregnancy, and so I used some of those as well. He was really great at reminding me just saying, "I love you. You're doing it. You're doing a great job." That was very helpful just feeling him there.Meagan: Yeah, absolutely.So with postpartum, this is also another common question. Is it better postpartum from my Cesarean versus my VBAC? What would you say? And any tips that you have for healing through your VBAC?Julia: Yeah, so my postpartum experience this time around is so much better. It's a night and day difference, not just physically healing like that. My VBAC is nothing compared to the C section. I think a lot of people fail to realize that a C-section is major, major abdominal surgery. Anyone else who had major abdominal surgery would be sent home to be on bed rest for weeks and you have to care for a newborn on top of that. With my C-section, I was a first-time mom. It was so overwhelming. Everything was new to me. I had a lot of pain with breastfeeding at first. I attribute a lot of that to the nurses making me pump. I was never sized for flanges. I just used the ones that came with the Medella and they weren't sized to me.I think that caused a lot of nipple damage. I ended up getting mastitis at two weeks postpartum the first time around and had to go back into the hospital for that and just had so much pain with latching that I ended up exclusively pumping for my son. I'm really proud because I was able to do that for two years, so he had breastmilk for two years.Meagan: That is a commitment.Julia: Yes, it was such a commitment. But I'm really, really happy that I did it and it was worth it to me. I just didn't want that negative experience of the birth and all that damage that happened early on from the pump to affect this because I really knew I wanted to breastfeed, and I was able to do it with exclusive pumping.And then this time around, it was just so much better. Breastfeeding is going great, and I've seen some research on that too. When you have a positive birth experience, that can also affect breastfeeding and even the first latch and everything.Just your emotions surrounding postpartum, when you go through something like that and you feel supported and in charge of your birth, you go into motherhood feeling the same way.Meagan: Yeah.Julia: I can't explain how much better it is this time around. That's why I really encourage all moms to know that you can do your own research and especially VBAC moms, there's so much out there about uterine rupture, and when you look at the relative risk versus the absolute risk, these are the kinds of things that you may not know to do because your doctor is just going to present the statistics one way. But we know that the way that those statistics are presented really greatly impacts what decision you make. And it's important to understand that.And so I would say my biggest tip for VBAC moms is to just really do your own research and find a provider who you feel like in your gut is going to be there for you, and is going to really believe in you. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what I was looking for with my crazy interview process was someone who I didn't just think would be there to be there, but be there to support me and really root for me and really be on my team, not just be there. I just think it makes such a big, big difference. And kind of going away from provider but coming into due dates and waiting longer. When I say longer, past the traditional 39 to 41 weeks. Now you were mentioning, people were even saying at 38 weeks, "Hey, have you had your baby? When are you gonna have your baby?" Oh my gosh. And these people, most of the time, I would say 99% of the time, they really just are excited for you to have your baby. And so if you're listening and maybe you have this situation, do say things like, "Hey, oh my gosh, I'm just so excited for you," not like, "When are you going toa have this baby?" Because it does start taking a toll sometimes on mom's mental health at the end.I wanted to also talk a little bit about due dates because Evidence Based Birth-- Rebecca Dekker, she's incredible. If you guys don't know them yet, go check out Evidence Based Birth. They've got a lot of really great blogs. But there is just a little part of a large blog that I wanted to read about and her little bullet point says, "Is the traditional due date really your due date?" I think this just fits so well here because you were 42 weeks and which day again?Julia: 42 weeks and 5 days.Meagan: 5 days, that's what I was thinking. So 42 weeks and 5 days. So obviously your traditional due date that you were given weeks before wasn't really true. Right? So it says, "Based on the best evidence, there is no such thing as an exact due date, and the estimated due date of 40 weeks is not accurate. Instead, it would be more appropriate to say that there is a normal range of time in which most people give birth. About half of all pregnant people will go into labor on their own by 40 weeks and 5 days for first-time mothers or 40 weeks and 3 days for mothers who have given birth before. The other half will not." Then it says, "Are there some things that can make your pregnancy longer? By far, the most important predictor of a longer pregnancy is family history of long pregnancies, including your own personal history, your mother, your sisters, etc. and the history of the baby's biological father's family history as well." In 2013, there was a large study that was looked at with more than 475,000 Swedish births, most of which were dated with an ultrasound before 20 weeks in that they found that genetics had an increasingly strong influence on your chance of giving birth after 42 weeks. Okay, there's so much more you guys. It talks about if you've had a post-term birth before, you have a 4.4 times more likely chance of having another post-term, if I can read, with the same partner. If you've had post-term birth before, then you switch partners, you have 3.4 times the chance of having another post- term birth with your new partner. And if your sister had a post-term birth, you have a 1.8 times the chance of having a post-term birth. You guys, it goes on and on and on. This is such a great article and eye opening in my opinion. I'm going to attach it in the show notes and it does continue to go on for risk for mothers, risk for infants.What about stillbirth? We know that is a huge topic when it comes to going past your due date just like uterine rupture is a huge topic for VBAC. I feel like when due dates come in, it's stillbirth. And she actually says that. It says up until the 1980s, some research thought that the risk of stillbirth past 41 to 42 weeks was similar to the risk of stillbirth earlier. She's going to go back and talk with how it definitely is a different measurement here, but the stats are there. The evidence is there. But look at you. You went. You trusted your body. You went with your body. You did what you needed to do to take extra precautions and had a beautiful, beautiful experience.Julia: Yeah, I'm really happy that I did trust my intuition and I did the research. All those things that you were talking about like risk of stillbirth and everything that you hear, there's a common thing that goes around social media like, "Oh, nothing good happens past 40 weeks." But that's just not the case.If you look at other countries that are like very similar in economic status to us in the US, due dates are calculated differently everywhere, so who's to say that this mythical 40-week due date is the end all be all? A lot of other countries won't even induce prior to 42 weeks unless there's like an issue. In the US, we see so many people routinely getting induced at 39 weeks, so I just think's it's really a cultural thing, so we we come to believe that it's the safest thing.But when you step back and do your own research, you can get a full picture and you can see, why are we inducing without any, any contraindication? Like why are people being presented Cesarean section as if it's just a minor procedure?I feel like in the Business of Being Born documentary, if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend everybody watching it really, because it shows how C-sections have become so much more popular and the reasons why they think that is and just the flaws in the medical system. It was just really eye opening and really encouraged me on my VBAC journey. It gave me a lot of tips and information and led me to find other resources. VBAC Facts was another really great thing that I referenced a lot. Evidence Based Birth like you had mentioned, and then of course, listening to The VBAC Link Podcast and podcasts of moms who have really positive VBAC stories because you only hear the negative a lot of the time.With birth in general, I feel like, it's just presented as such a scary thing. I really want to encourage women to know that birth is made to be this way. It doesn't have to be some scary out of control thing where you're at the mercy of a doctor or a provider telling you when to push or telling you to do something that you don't feel comfortable doing. When we trust nature and we surrender to the power of labor, it's really sacred. It's beautiful. It's normal, and most of all, it's safe in most cases.We don't have to fight it or medicalize it. And in the words of Ricky Lake, who gave birth in her bathtub in that stellar documentary Business of Being Born, she had said, "Birth is not an illness. It's not something that needed to be numbed. It needed to be experienced." For anyone who's planning or would like to plan an unmedicated birth, you can get a lot of resistance or people who don't understand. But I really encourage you to know that you can do it, that women have been doing it for generations. And just keep those affirmations in your mind and believe in yourself. You have to do that.Meagan: Exactly. I love that you pointed that out. There are so many times that we do treat birth as this medical event, this illness, this problem, and it's just not. It's not. It's not. I don't know what else to say. It is not. And we have to change our view. And just like you were re saying, it's a cultural thing. We have to change or it's just not going to get better. It could get worse. We're seeing the Cesarean rate. We're seeing these things happen. And there's a problem. There's a problem out there. We have to start stepping back and realizing that birth is not that medical event and we can trust this process. And our bodies were meant to do this. And they do it every day. Every day, all over the world. Every single day, a baby is born, probably thousands. I don't even know the exact number. But we can do this. We don't have to, we don't have to treat it like that.Julia: Right. That's what I really liked about the midwifery model of care. It was just so different to my experience with, with my OB. I think a lot of people fail to realize that in most other parts of the world, low-risk women are attended by midwives and the obstetricians are there to take care of the percentage of women who are having issues. With home birth, you can think, oh well, what if something goes wrong and you're not in the hospital setting?But what a lot of people don't realize is that oftentimes these interventions that are routinely done in the hospital that most of the time they don't even ask for permission to do, or they present it in a way that they're helping you actually lead to some of these devastating consequences, like low-risk women going in and then ending up with a C-section for reasons that they often can't even understand.And so that's something that I really feel passionately about is just encouraging women to advocate for yourself and to know ahead of time, what is routine and why are they offering this? Is this for your benefit or for the doctor's benefit? With all these risks of these different things that can happen, like Pitocin, which is commonly used to induce or augment labor, you might not need that. Or did you know that if they started that you can ask for them to shut it off?You should be in charge of your birth. When you're in that setting, it can be intimidating and you might feel like you don't have a voice, especially when you're already in a vulnerable position in labor. So I was really confident with my midwives' ability to look out for anything that may go wrong. But I love her hands-off approach. She didn't intervene. She just stood back and was just there to witness. There was no telling me when to push. I was able to experience the fetal ejection reflex which was really cool. I just felt my body pushing for me and surrendered to that. She was there to make sure that everything was going smoothly. I was the one who picked my baby up out of the water and she just stood back while my husband and my baby and I met each other for the first time. It was just all really special. That's something I want to say. With the risk of uterine rupture that you hear about with VBAC, that wasn't even in my mind. I didn't have someone there constantly telling me, "Oh, well, we're seeing this on the monitor," or scaring me with the very, very slim chance of rupture.Meagan: Exactly. Oh, so many good tips, such a great story. I am just so grateful that you are here today sharing it with us.Julia: I'm really grateful to be here and to share my story with everybody.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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Brielle Brasil is a mama's coach, breathwork facilitator, and somatic trauma resolution therapist. She shares her two birth stories as a foreigner living in the Dominican Republic. Brielle's first birth was an unexpected, traumatic C-section. After putting in the work to heal, Brielle felt ready to explore birth options that she thought were unattainable. She was creative and intuitive throughout the entire process.Julie and Brielle also dive deeper into how trauma is stored in the body, how somatic trauma resolution can help, and why it's important not to try to heal trauma on your own.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right, Women of Strength. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is Julie and I am here with a very special guest today, Brielle. I am really excited to hear her stories. She gave birth in the Dominican Republic twice, both her C-section and her VBAC. We were just talking about that because my previous guest who I just recorded with in episode 370 also lived in the Dominican Republic. She had her babies back in the States. She flew back to the States. It was just such a coincidence. I am mind-blown. What are the chances?Brielle: So wild. Julie: I know. Brielle had both of her babies there. I'm so excited to hear about her stories and her experience, but before we do that, I am going to read a Review of the Week that Meagan texted me this morning if I can find it in all of our text messages. Okay, here it is. This review is on Apple Podcasts from janaerachelle. She says, “I am so happy I found this incredible podcast. After having two prior C-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another C-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered, educated, and hopeful I can do this. Thank you for all of the true facts in a safe space where we can all talk about our birth trauma in a space where we don't sound ‘crazy' for doing something that God created our bodies to do.” I love that so much. I think that the birth world is so interesting in lots of different ways and lots of different things. It can be incredibly wild to desire something that can be considered outside of the box. I'm glad that VBAC is becoming more and more common and that we are talking about it more. Sometimes, when I'm so deep in this VBAC world, it can be easy to forget that some people think it is the wildest thing ever. Brielle: Yeah. Absolutely. People in the Dominican Republic for sure fall into that box of, “What? You can actually have a baby vaginally after having a C-section?” People didn't know that was an option.Julie: Yeah. People just don't know. All right, let's get to it. I am so excited to hear your stories. I am really on the edge of my seat right now. Before I have you get into those, I'm just going to introduce you a little bit. This is Brielle. She is a Mama's Coach, breathwork facilitator, and somatic trauma resolution therapist. She helps postpartum and pregnant women heal from their previous birth trauma, forgive themslves, their bodies, their babies, and their previous team so they can go into their next birth confident, free, and in tune with their motherly intuition fully trusting themselves, their bodies, their babies, and birth.I have lots to say about this, but I'm going to wait until the end because I don't want to start going off on too many tangents too soon. But I'm excited. I want to hear more. We will definitely talk about that after the birth stories, and I'm super excited. She lives in Virginia, and we are both commiserating about how things are shifting to the chilly side of the weather today, but I am going to sit here cozy in my blanket while I am listening to Brielle's stories giving birth in the Dominican Republic. Go ahead, Brielle. Take it away, and I am excited to hear. Brielle: Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on here. It's such an honor, and it feels really surreal because I listened to this podcast a ton during my second pregnancy. Yes. I am not Dominican. I am American, and I was a foreigner having both of my babies in a foreign country. As you mentioned about the woman you recorded with earlier, most foreigners who are in the Dominican Republic don't have their babies in the Dominican Republic. I was part of an international community, and my husband was an international teacher. It was just assumed that if you are not Dominican, you are going to go back to wherever your home country was to give birth. Right after that, the fact that I was deciding both pregnancies to give birth there because the most important person for me to have at my birth was my husband and the only way to have him at my birth, because it wasn't a summer baby and he was a teacher. It was an April baby, and then a May baby the next time. The only way to have him there was to have our babies i the Dominican Republic. I'll just start off with the first birth. I went into it very fearful having a baby abroad where the language spoken is not my first language. Spanish is not my first language. It was fearful solely for the fact that I was doing it in a foreign country not even really realizing the fears that I had around birth itself until later. I found a doula, and I really liked her. I didn't know much about the OB/GYNs there. She had recommended a couple of them to me and the one that she had used for her births which were all Cesareans, but she said he was a great doctor and he spoke English fluently. I went to him. I stuck with him. Right away, I didn't feel anything initially wrong. He was very knowledgeable. He was up to date on what seemed like a lot of research. But then as things would progress, he would start to question me asking questions to him which was odd, but at the same time, I was like, “Well, he's fluent in English. I feel comfortable in that regard. My doula recommended him.” It was my first time doing this, I was just going to stick with him. Then at about 37-38 weeks pregnant, I started to get the real red flags. Red flags as in him starting to talk about induction already and I'm only 37-38 weeks pregnant. At that point, I just felt like, “Well, okay.” It was clear to me that these were red flags, but I also felt like I didn't have another option. I felt like at that point I was too far along. It was too late in the game. I had seen him my whole pregnancy. I just needed to stay with him. I had prodromal labor for about a week. During that week, this was weeks 39-40. During that week, I went into that office every other day. It was a lot. We were just a little bit obsessive over the time and the clock and everything. I went in several times. I got three membrane sweeps which were all pretty painful. We were trying to “get things to start naturally” and as natural as possible. I know membrane sweeps aren't really, but we were trying to help things along because I was having that prodromal labor. I would have contractions for hours, and they would stop for hours. Also, my husband and I were trying to have things happen naturally as well, so we were having a lot of sex that last week around the clock. Somewhere, I think, from probably the amount of sex we were having and making sure to go to the bathroom right after, I ended up getting a UTI. I think it was the day before my due date when I started to get sick. I started to get a fever. I started to get a high fever. My husband was like, “We need to go into the doctor.” I didn't want to because I was fearful of knowing what he was going to say. At that point, I didn't feel like I trusted him because of the red flags that were coming up. I begged my husband, “Let's not go. Let's see if it goes away.” We waited 24 hours, and it didn't. He was like, “I don't feel comfortable.” I was like, “I get it. Okay, we'll go.” We went in. Of course, they checked the baby's heart rate which was a little bit high. I just felt pretty much like shit. The fever kept coming and going. Because I had the contractions going on and off, he was like, “We need to get labor underway.” They didn't know yet it was a UTI. They were like, “We need to test and see why you're sick and run labs.” He was like, “I recommend that you go to the hospital and get induced. We will run all of the tests.”He was afraid I had COVID actually, but it wasn't that. He was like, “We just need to run the tests, get you induced, and get this thing going on because that shouldn't be happening.” I didn't know anything about prodromal labor or any of that. I was scared. I was in a foreign country. I just wanted my baby to be healthy. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Let's go.” We all went. I got induced that morning. Looking back on it and having done the healing work I did, I can see that I just wasn't ready. My body wasn't fully ready yet. My baby wasn't ready yet. It was just a rushed timing scenario because I got induced that morning. They did the test. They found that I had a UTI, so they were treating me with antibiotics while pumping me with Pitocin. On and off all day long, my fever would go away, then it would come back, then it would go away, and then it would come back. I would pick up contractions and be in labor. That was hard to deal with when I was sick. I felt zero energy hardly at that point being sick. That was at 9:00 in the morning. I got induced. It went on and off all day. The contractions were doing the same thing all day. They would pick up for a few hours, then they would stop for a long while. What was interesting, I noticed, is that every time my doctor would come into the room to check me, my contractions would completely stop around him. Looking back, I can tell I didn't feel safe with him. I just had past trauma with males. I shouldn't have ever had a male provider personally. I could tell those things in hindsight, but it was just all happening. By the end of the day in the evening, he was like, “You haven't made any progression dilation-wise. The baby's heart rate's really high, so I suggest we go into a C-section.” My husband and I were just like, “Yeah.” Like I said, we wanted our baby to be healthy. We were fearful. We went into C-section, and we had him. I was just numb through the whole experience because I had really desired everything of my first birth to be natural. I actually wanted a home birth my first go around, but I thought it was illegal in the DR because I didn't know there were any midwives. There were no birthing centers in the DR. Nobody I had ever talked to had ever had a home birth in the DR, and I was actually told, and my doula actually thought home birth was illegal because it was so, so, so, so rare in the DR. I was just under the impression that it was illegal, so I didn't plan a home birth. But I tried to plan a hospital birth that would hopefully be as natural as possible. Instead, I got the opposite. I had a lot of the cascade of interventions that I didn't want to have at all. I wanted things to happen spontaneously and to have minimal time in the hospital. I wanted that skin-to-skin right after, and my baby was taken away from me right after he was born which was very traumatic. I had to work really hard to heal all of that. But nonetheless, he was born. He had pooped himself inside of my womb, so there was meconium there. They told me that his cord was wrapped in a way that he couldn't progress, and that's why I wasn't dilating and he wasn't descending. It's like they tried to give me some reasons why that was the right way. It's not that I don't believe that, but in hindsight and after a lot of the healing work I did, I can see why everything went down the path it did because I felt rushed at the end of the day. I felt like that word “induction” was being thrown around so much and I didn't want that. I had to take matters into my own hands and try to do all of the “natural” inductions. Also, at the end of the day, my son was born the week before Semana Fante in the Dominican Republic which is Holy Week which is a huge, huge holiday week, so I did also find out that some of the members of the birth team had plans for Easter week and travel plans, so I knew that there was a bit of a rush from that end which made me feel rushed and just made the whole process one that I needed to heal from in big, big ways. So after I had my son, postpartum was really, really hard. Breastfeeding was hard. Everything was hard. I realize everything was so hard not only because I was a new mom and didn't have the support I needed, but because my birth was incredibly traumatic– and I didn't think of it that way at first because I was like, “My son is born. He is healthy.” But then 6 months after I had my son, I was still having physical pain at my scar site. I got it checked out. Nothing medically or physically was wrong with it, but what I know being in the line of trauma work that I do is that our body holds trauma, and everything is connected physically and emotionally within our bodies and within ourselves. About 6 months after I had him, I was still having that pain. I decided to work on my birth trauma. I worked on it from all different levels. I worked on it from the physical level. I started seeing an osteopath who I worked with for the next several months. Within a matter of weeks, a lot of the pain was gone. I also started working on it with a traumatic somatic trauma coach who is also a birth attendant. I found her because she was in the same trauma certification group that I went through. I worked with her for 6 months to heal everything from that birth and all of the trauma that it caused to forgive myself, to forgive my baby, to forgive my team, to feel safe again in my body, to feel at peace, to feel at home in my body, to connect back to my body, to connect to my baby, and just a number of things that we did together somatically and through breathwork to really peel back all of the layers of my birth, and not just my birth, but all of the births that came before me in my lineage to heal and heal deeply. It was a big, big work that we did together. It was not a small undertaking, but I will say that I feel. I feel that the work that I did to heal my first birth spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically was the best catalyst I could have had on my side for my next pregnancy and my next birth. So I got pregnant in August of 2022, or sorry, 2023. It's interesting because I had thought about home birth the first time, and because of the timing, we were again going to have our baby in the DR. Is home birth a thing there? Sure enough, you put it out in the universe, and I started to meet people who were having home birth, mostly foreigners who were having home births in the DR. I think three, which was huge because before, I had not even heard of it. I was like, “​​Wow, okay. This is happening here. This is allowed here. This is legal here. What are you guys doing? What are you guys going through?” I started getting the right contacts of the right people and found out that there is a midwife in Fountaindomingo, one. I met with her. I was so excited because I was like, “​​This is great. She gets to be my midwife.” Then she told me that her dad was sick at the time, and she was going to be helping him. She told me, “I'm not going to be working during the time of your due date.” I was like, “​​Okay, so we just need to look at other options.” Right off the bat, everything I did for my second pregnancy was a 360 from my first one. With my first one, I was like, “Okay, it's this one guy. It has to be.” I was very narrow because I was scared.With the second one, I was like, “​​Okay, it's not her. I'm going to keep my options open. I'm going to keep my mind open. We'll find someone.” My husband just did a Google search of traveling midwives in the US. We had a call with my midwife, Brittany, who is from Texas. Right after the Zoom call, I looked at my husband. I was crying because I felt such a connection with her. I was like, “​​She's it. She's the person who has to be at my birth. I feel so safe with her. I feel so seen and supported. She's everything I would look for in someone to deliver my baby. She's both nurturing and has a calming presence, but she's also direct and not going to sugarcoat things. I need a beautiful blend of both.” I was really excited. We ended up signing a contract with her, and in the meantime, I got my prenatal care from an OB/GYN office throughout my pregnancy, and of course, to have a backup option in place. I switched OB/GYNs three times this pregnancy, and the last time I switched, I think, was as late as 32 weeks pregnant. I had been with the second gal. The first two OB/GYNs I was with– they were all women– were from recommendations from the midwife who wouldn't be working during my birth. She had recommended the first two. The first one, I loved, but she wasn't fluent in English, so neither one of us felt comfortable in terms of communication and being able to fully communicate when it comes to birth. I was bummed, but that one didn't work out. I went to the second one she recommended. This one was a lot more fluent in English. I could communicate with her fine, and she was direct, but her bedside manner was so direct that she didn't have that calming and nurturing confidence. She was confident, but she didn't have the calming, nurturing side that I also wanted. She said a couple of things that didn't vibe very well with me. It was so direct that it was hurtful. At 32 weeks, I was like, “​​You know what, babe? I love my first choice for my team, but if something happens, I don't love my second choice.” I was determined. I just kept looking, and through one of the girls who had a home birth, she had heard of the woman that I went to as my third option. She had recommended, “If you decide to have it in the hospital, here are a couple of people I have heard good things about through friends.” I went to this woman, Lini Capalon, from 32 weeks. I didn't tell her I was planning a home birth. I decided not to tell her. I told the second lady. She had gotten a little iffy about it because it's not illegal there, but again, it's so uncommon there that it's hard for them to wrap their head around it basically. I'll put it that way.With the third woman, I didn't tell her, but she knew I wanted to have a VBAC. She had done a number of VBACs herself, and she had told me before I even started talking to her, she was like, “​​Look. We want this birth to be as natural as possible for your highest chance at VBAC.” She was like, “​​You need to go into labor spontaneously. We don't want to interfere at all. I don't want to interfere with you. I don't want to give any interventions.” She was like, “​​You can go until you're 42 weeks and 3 days before we'll then talk about induction.”I was floored because I didn't think this existed in an OB/GYN in the DR. First of all, that they're doing VBAC, and secondly, that they're for it. We were talking about this, Julie, a little bit before we hopped on that the C-section rate in the Dominican Republic is 90%. 9-0 in private hospitals, and public hospitals are really, really not great. If you have the choice, you wouldn't want to birth in a public hospital. You are already going into a private hospital with a 90% chance of a C-section.Julie: That is so wild. It is so wild. Brielle: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I learned that through the midwife who was in Santo Domingo. Julie: Well, and I almost wonder if the 10% who are not Cesareans are the ones who go so fast or are on accident. Do you know what I mean? Brielle: Yeah. Yeah. Or just everything progresses, I don't want to say normally, but quickly.Julie: Quickly, yeah.Brielle: Quickly. You're not “late” at all. I did have a friend who actually had a vaginal birth in the DR about a month after me. That was very hard for me as well and very triggering because she also had the same doctor as me the first go-around.Julie: Oh no. That's hard.Brielle: That was a big part of my healing journey too. But yeah, her water broke. She went into labor. She progressed quickly and had the baby. There was not anything out of the “norm”. Anyway, that's how it needs to happen if you're going to have a chance. The fact that I had found her, then she was pro-VBAC and had VBAC experience was really rare because I was also saying that VBACs are unheard of in the DR. After I had my second baby, people were like, “​​What? You had your baby vaginally? Didn't you have a C-section before?” They didn't know that was possible.I went with her for my backup option. Then, here we go. I was 38 weeks and 5 days pregnant. My midwife is scheduled to come. She has her flight booked for the day before my due date. I'm still 10 days out before she's supposed to come. I lose my mucus plug, and I have my bloody show. Of course, I message her. She's like, “​​Well, here's the thing. You could go into labor anytime now. It could be tomorrow, and it could be 2 weeks from now. We just don't have any way to predict that.” I was like, “Okay, cool. Great.” But another thing that I had worked largely on this pregnancy and a big reason why I kept changing OB/GYNs and a big reason why I said no to a lot of things during my pregnancy and started speaking my voice is because I found my intuition or re-found it, and really listened to it every step of the way. Any time anything felt the slightest bit off, I was like, “​​Nope. We're not doing that.” It took an incredible amount of tuning everything out, tuning out all of the noise and opinions and everything that's out there and really just listening within. After that happened, I lost my mucus plug. She wasn't supposed to come for 10 days. She tells me, “It could be tomorrow. It could be 2 weeks.” I slept on it, and then the next day, I was like, “​​Brittany, I think you need to get here sooner. When's the soonest you can come?” This was Friday. She was like, “I can come this Sunday in two days.” I was like, “​​Great. Can you change your flight?” She was like, “​​Yeah. Can you pay the difference?” I'm like, “​​Yeah, that's fine.” She changes her flight to Sunday. Her Airbnb was on the street that I live on. She gets to her AirBnB at 3:00 PM on Sunday. That night, I had about three or four days of prodromal labor before that. That night, at 7-8:00 PM is when I finally started having regular contractions, and my water broke that night at about 11:00 PM the day that she got there. Julie: Your baby was waiting. They just knew. Brielle: They knew. I knew. I was like, “​​You've got to get here sooner.” Baby Alana was waiting. Everything was happening in perfect timing. I told her that my water broke. She came over. Labor started. My contractions were regular. I let my husband sleep because I also didn't know how long it was going to be because I had prodromal with this one too. I had it for a week before. I'm like, “​​I don't really know for sure if it's the real thing. I'm going to let him sleep for now. He supposedly has to work tomorrow, but we'll see.” Things were regular, active, and intense all night long. He ended up waking up at 4:00 AM and coming up and setting up the birthing tub at that point. I didn't know if I wanted a water birth or not, but I knew I wanted to have it as a comfort option and I wanted the option should I want to birth in there when the time came. So he set up the tub, and my doula came over. I had pretty intense contractions until Monday morning. Our nanny came over because my son, my 2.5-year-old was just 2 at the time, he woke up and he had school. She was getting him ready for school. He woke up, and even though the nanny was with him, that slowed my contractions down a little bit because it's hard when your son's not there to be in mom mode somewhat. Things slowed down a little bit while he was getting ready for school. He went to school. I was feeling a little frustrated because things had slowed down. My husband was like, “​​Let's go outside. Let's go for a walk.” We left the apartment. We went for a walk. My husband had me doing squats which I wish in hindsight I had reserved that energy. I didn't know how long labor would go on. I was hunched over. Cars were stopping, “Are you okay?” as we were walking down the street and people were on their way to work because things were picking up again.I'm like, “​​Okay, I think we need to get back to the apartment.” He helped me. We get back to the apartment. We get back inside. Things got really intense again. It was Monday morning. I'm in and out of the birthtub. I'm on the birth ball listening to HypnoBirthing tracks using my breath. I'm a breathwork facilitator, so it wasn't hard for me to tune into different breath patterns that were feeling good and supporting the intensity of everything. Monday afternoon came. My son got off to school. He came home. The same thing happened. They slowed down a bit while he got lunch and got ready for his nap. He went for his nap, then things really picked up. My midwife knew I didn't want to be checked because of the whole thing before of, “You're 1 centimeter,” and a week later, “You're 1.5 centimeters. You're not progressing,” type thing. I knew I didn't want to be checked, but I think she could tell by the intensity and by the look in my eyes that I must be close to needing to push.She said, “I know you don't want to be checked, but do you mind if I check you and not tell you the number just to see where things are at?” This was Monday afternoon. I'm like, “​​Sure, that's fine.” She checked me. I was like, “​​You can tell my husband where I'm at, and he can decide if I should know.She checked me, and then a bunch more of my water gushes out, and then she blurts out, “You're fully dilated. You're ready to push.” I was like, “​​Really? That's awesome. Great. Sounds great to me.” It had been a little over 12 hours at this point. I was like, “​​Okay.” But I also told her, “Really? I don't feel the urge to push. I don't feel like I need to push.” She explained to me that VBAC patients sometimes don't feel that urge. That's possible that you might not feel the urge. I was like, “​​Okay.” I leaned on her a little bit more for what positions to try and stuff like that and the actual mode of how to push because again, it wasn't coming naturally. It wasn't coming instinctively because I didn't feel that urge. For the next, I think, 4 or 5 hours, I pushed at home. I pushed in the tub. I pushed out of the tub. I pushed on my bed. I pushed on the floor. I pushed in kneeling, hands and knees. You name the position. I feel like I probably tried it. I was absolutely exhausted because, of course, I didn't sleep the night before. Eating was hard. I wasn't getting what I needed nutritionally to keep up energetically with how long the labor was getting and how long the pushing was getting, but I also didn't want to eat. I felt like I couldn't get hydrated. I was exhausted. There were a number of times I looked at my husband, and I looked at my doula, “I can't do this anymore.” They were encouraging me, “Yes, you can.” I got on my hands and knees and prayed. I was listening to my tracks. I had my crystals that I work with, and I'm just talking to my spirit guides and all of this stuff. After 4 or 5 hours, I was beat. I was so defeated. I was beat. My midwife was like, “​​Why don't we give it a rest for a little bit?” She was intermittently checking our baby's heart rate and checking me. All of that was fine. The baby was fine. I was fine the whole time, so she kept saying, “Both of you are fine. You can stay here longer. There is no rush because both of you are fine. There is no need to go to the hospital if you don't want to. If you want to, that's an option, and it's fine.” I was like, “​​No. I'm just going to take a break from pushing, and try to rest.” Of course, I'm in active labor, so trying to rest is hard, but I just stopped with trying to push for a couple of hours, then it was getting into Monday night. My son had gone to bed for the night. It had been a few hours of this “resting”, but really intense contractions, and she asked me, “Do you want me to check you again? Do you not? Just to see what's going on. I don't know what's happened.” She checked me.She said, “I have bad news.” I was like, “​​Okay, give it to me, I guess.” She explained to me that there are two layers of the cervix, the outer and the inner. When she had checked me before I pushed for that 4 or 5 hours, she realized she could only feel one layer. The layer that she felt was fully dilated, but then when she was checking me this time Monday night, she was feeling the other layer, and it wasn't fully dilated. It was around a 7. She said that was why our baby– she had been sitting so low for this whole time. She was there, but couldn't get around that other layer which is why the pushing wasn't really doing anything to get her out. I was like, “​​Okay.” It was hard to hear, but also kind of relieving to hear in a way because I was like, “​​Well, I just did all of that work for nothing? What?” That's what it felt like, but then it also felt like, “Okay, well, at least there is a reason why I was pushing, and it wasn't happening. It just wasn't.” I trusted the timing. I was so trusting in this birth. I was so trusting of the timing. I was so trusting of my baby. I was so trusting of my body and myself. I had done so much work around that to trust myself. I was like, “​​Okay.” I rested some more. Everything was fine. I continued to labor at home until about midnight. I was in the birthing tub, and at about midnight, I started to feel absolutely terrible, just incredibly weak. I had now been up for over two days and had two nights with no sleep. The four days before that was bad sleep because it was prodromal labor. My body was really exhausted. I was emotionally exhausted and mentally exhausted in every way.It was midnight. I was going through the second night now. I was just like, “​​Guys, I don't feel well. I feel really bad.” She checked my vitals. Everything was fine. I was like, “​​I feel like my blood pressure was really low. I felt like I was going to pass out.” She was like, “​​Have you eaten any protein today?” I had eaten a lot of carbs and was staying hydrated. I was like, “​​No, I guess not.” She was like, “​​Let's try some protein.” I absolutely didn't want that, but my husband was force-feeding me a ton of chicken. My husband does acupuncture as a side thing. I was like, “​​Can you give me acupuncture to progress things or help with this terrible feeling I have to give me some energy?” He did acupuncture on me. He was force-feeding me chicken. Right after that, I got back in the birthing tub. I projectile vomited everywhere. After I threw up, I was like, “​​Oh, I feel better now.” It was so bizarre. I was going through a whirlwind at this point. I was like, “​​I feel better. I feel like I can continue now.” This was midnight now. My midwife said, “Okay, you can continue.” I continued the next four hours in and out of the tub, on the birthing ball. My husband was asleep at this point. My doula had to leave because her daughter was sick. I'm dozing off in the tub between every contraction which was only every 15 seconds because I was so tired, then the contractions would come. They'd be level 100, insane intensity. They'd be a minute and a half, then I'd get to fall asleep for 15 seconds then wake back up and do it again, and do it again on repeat for 4 or 5 hours. Then it's 4:30 AM. I know it's getting close to rush hour. There's a lot of traffic during rush hour in Santo Domingo. If we tried to go to the hospital during rush hour, it probably would have taken us 2, maybe 3 hours to get there. I told my midwife at 4:30 AM, “Can you check me?” She checked me, and that same layer was still at a 7. It was maybe a 7.5. I told her, “I'm ready to throw in the towel.” What I meant by that was, “I'm ready to surrender to this process,” which means I'm not going to do it here at home anymore. Intuitively, that felt very right to me to go. It was time to try something different. I had been home for 35 hours at labor. We had worked with everything that was there. I had all of my tools that I had, and I felt like something needed to change.Julie: You were so tired. You worked so hard for so long. An exhausted body is just exhausted and not effective at laboring.Brielle: No, not at all.My midwife and my husband packed up my bag. My midwife ended up having to stay at our house because my son was sleeping. Our nanny couldn't get there until 6:00 or 7:00 AM. My doula, her kid was sick, and she had to go home. My husband and I had to go to the hospital. The next two hours were insane. Once I decided I was going to the hospital, I basically had no breaks in my contractions. The time that they were packing my bags, and then we were going down to the car and driving to the hospital which was quick because there was no traffic at 5:00 AM. Those 15 minutes, we thought we were going to have the baby in the car. At this point, I was having zero breaks. The intensity was through the roof. We walk into the hospital. My husband has to do paperwork, so I'm all by myself. I'm just roaring like a lion at this point. I'm barreled over. This is so intense. I don't have my tub or my ball or anything at this point. I didn't have any pain relief medically, but I didn't even have the things I had at home to help me. I'm just barreled over and roaring and screaming and super primal. My doctor finally showed up. He finishes the paperwork. That whole thing was probably 2 hours of me not having any type of relief, really, just to get to the hospital. That was the toughest part, I think.Then my OB/GYN, Leni, comes in. She checks me, and she's like, “​​You're fully dilated. You're ready to push.” She didn't know I had been at home. She didn't know everything that was going on and that I was planning a home birth. I said, “I am not pushing this baby out right now.” I said, “I pushed at home for 5 hours. I've been in labor for 35 hours. I haven't slept in 3 days. I projectile vomited everything.” I'm not saying this. I was huffing and puffing through this, but I looked at her, and I'm just like, “​​Give me an epidural now. I'm not doing this anymore.” She was like, “​​Technically, we're not supposed to. You're fully dilated.” She was like, “​​Okay, all right. We'll get you the epidural.” They wheeled me up. They gave me the epidural. My husband didn't go into the room with me. I thought I was just getting the epidural in this room, but it was the birthing room. I didn't know because I hadn't done the full tour of things beforehand. I mean, I did a little bit, but I didn't put it together at the time where I was getting the epidural. I thought I was going to have a break to take a nap. I was going to get the epidural, then I was going to take a nap, then I was going to push the baby out. That's not how it went. They were like, “​​All right, whenever you feel the next contraction.” I'm like, “No, I can't. Where's my husband? My husband's not here.” They were like, “​​It's hospital policy. Nobody can be in here with you.” I was like, “​​What?”Julie: No.Brielle: Yeah. I lost my shit. I lost my shit. I am like, “​​Absolutely not. Get him in here now! I'm not doing this without him. He's been here every minute beside me for the last 35 hours, but also for the last 7 years of my life. I'm not doing this without him.” They were all looking at each other, like, “​​Look, when it gets close and when he is crowning, we will bring him in.” I was like, “​​Okay,” so I pushed when the contractions came. I was surprised I could still feel the contraction, but after the epidural, thank God. It was what my body needed at that point. I was like, “​​Thank you for modern medicine. There is a reason it exists.” But after 30 minutes of pushing, they just randomly asked me, “Do you have a doula?” I didn't say anything about my actual doula, but I said, “My husband is my doula. Get him in here.” They were like, “​​Okay, okay. We're going to bring him in now.” They brought him in. He started coaching me like a drill sergeant or a CrossFit coach or something, but he was like, “Just do it!” He knew me so well, and he knew in that moment that I wanted a VBAC so badly, and he also knew everything I had been through that previous 35 hours. He knew we needed to do this. He knew we needed to get on with it. He was coaching me and basically screaming at me. It was exactly what I needed in that moment. After he came in, 30 minutes later, I pushed her out. She was born. They brought her to my chest. Everything my OB/GYN told me, she stuck by her word. She was like, “​​You will have skin-to-skin. You will have that hour.” They asked me, “Can we take her to do x, y, and z?” I was like, “​​No, not yet. Don't take her yet.” They did the things they needed to while she was on top of me. Everything they had promised, they fulfilled. That, I feel like, was why I just felt intuitively really good about both options, my first option and my backup option. I went with that, and it was exactly the way it was supposed to be. Julie: Yeah, I love that. I think being able to trust is such an important thing in the birth space, being able to trust yourself, your care team, your partner, all of your different options, your birth location, and all of that is just so connected to how our bodies can work and trust that process, and yeah. That was great. So good. Brielle: Yeah, that was a huge part of my experience. It was learning to trust myself, the timing, my baby, and my body fully. Healing my experience and just following my intuition completely.Julie: Yeah, I love that so much. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what you did to prepare with the breathwork and the somatic trauma work? I mean, did you get into that before or after? I'm assuming before because your baby is pretty young. How old is your baby now?Brielle: My baby was 5 months the other day. In between pregnancies, and I was not pregnant. I was 6 months postpartum from the first one that I started doing it personally for myself. Do you mean as a practitioner when I got into the work? Julie: Mhmm. Brielle: As a practitioner, I got into this work 5-6 years ago. I was already facilitating breathwork and coaching people for trauma, but not birth trauma. I had gotten my trauma resolution coaching certification and my trauma-informed breathwork certification before I ever had kids. I was really excited to get to use my breathwork and all of my tools and everything for my first birth, but that ended up going a completely different way. I did still use it, but it looked a lot different than I thought it would. I got into this work. I was coaching people on their trauma through a somatic way. Basically, trauma lives in the cells of our body, and it stays in the cells of our body unless we somatically move it through our physiology. There are two major ways we can do that. One is through a type of somatic coaching that I do, and the other is through breathwork. They are both somatic practices, but one is using the breath in a very intentional and activating way to help move that trauma through our cells and out. The other one is using a very hands-on– they are both body-based, but one is more of a visualization. I take you through an experience where you are feeling where things are living in your body. Basically, you are attuning to where there are certain activations in your body as I take you through a lived, traumatic experience. We are finding where that trauma lives in your body with a somatic coaching so I'm able to use a lot of tools to help you visualize it and then move that out.Then with breathwork, it's similar, but we are using the breath. The breath is automatically going to the spaces energetically where the trauma is living to help move it out.Julie: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. It reminds me. I've done a lot of therapy work. My therapist would ask. I've done lots of group therapy, individual sessions, and all of the things. One of my therapists who would lead our group sessions would say, “What do you feel and where are you feeling it?” We would take turns identifying what in their body needs to be addressed. You've got to describe it. What does it feel like? Does it have a sensation or a taste or a smell? Is it heavy or is it light? Does it have a color? Where in the body is it?I hated it, to be honest. It was the worst thing ever. Brielle: It's really deep.Julie: It's crunchy. Yeah. It's deep, and you have to be comfortable getting uncomfortable, and reaching and stopping and being in tune with your body. I hated it so bad for a very long time, but even now, I don't do those group sessions or anything or anymore. Every once in a while, I'll scan my body. “Okay, what do I feel and where am I doing it?” I try to get my kids to do it, and they're like, “I don't know what the freak you mean, Mom.” They're still young, but I know what you are talking about with that work. What is it? Moving it out, how to release it. That's so important. Brielle: It's so great. It transcends as I work with a client. They feel it. They see it in a certain way. It has textures, colors, and shapes, and we stay with it. We don't stay with it beyond the point that they feel they can stay with it. If that's super uncomfortable for them, we go back to our resource which I do at the beginning of the session.I'm not taking them through an experience in a way that is beyond their capacity to move through it. The body won't ever take them through something that they don't feel ready to handle. I think that's really important to specify because if you're just talking about this work and you have never heard of it, that can sound really scary.It is deep work, but at the same time, because of my trainings and with breathwork as well being trauma-informed, I never take a client to a place that their body is not actually physiologically ready to go into. Julie: Yeah, that's really important. It's such an intuitive thing. You talked a lot about intuition too. One thing I wanted to say before we close out the episode is that you mentioned earlier in the episode about learning to forgive yourself. That was something I don't think we talk about a lot or think about a lot, but it's something that I had to go through as well after my C-section. My thing was forgiving myself for not knowing what I didn't know going into my birthIt can sound kind of silly. What do I need to forgive myself for? But sometimes, we focus a lot on forgiving others in the situation and our team or our partner or whatever, but we don't often direct that inward. I think that's such an important part to give yourself grace and mercy and love and forgiveness and go through and not judge yourself too harshly or hold yourself to an unrealistic standard especially when you didn't have the information then that you have now.So I think that's an important part of the process as well.Brielle: That's a big amount of the work I do with my clients as well is that self-forgiveness piece and really forgiving their bodies because a lot of them feel like, “My body failed me or my body is broken.” That was a lot of work I had to do myself personally after my first birth to realize, “No, my body didn't fail me. My body's not broken. Nothing was wrong with me.” But if we don't do that forgiveness work for your body to yourself, that trauma is still going to be living in ourselves and still expecting. I'm not going to say it's going to give you a repeat experience, but we're still having that physiological presence where like attracts like. That's still in there. That's still the drawing factor of something that your body is expecting. It's still holding that past experience.Julie: Right. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. I encourage everybody to do the work, but also, I think's important to mention this a little bit is to find somebody trusted that you can do it with. It's important to not dig too deeply into past traumas or things like that unless you have a solid support around you like a therapist, any mental health professional, an energy worker or people like that to help guide you through it so you don't get too deep into things that you are not prepared to handle or heal.Brielle: Absolutely. That's what I do as well through the lens of breathwork and somatic coaching. Julie: So where can people find you?Brielle: Yeah, it's definitely not something I recommend doing on your own. Have somebody to hold that space for you who knows what they're doing. People can find me on Instagram. It's just my name at Brielle Brasil. Brasil is with an S. You can reach out through there, and that's where I'll be.Julie: Perfect. We'll link that information in the show notes for anybody who wants to go give her a follow as well.All right, well thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.Brielle: Thank you so much. Julie: It's so cool to hear your story and your journey and your process. Thanks for being here. Brielle: Awesome. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. It was an honor.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to be joined today by our friend, Ali Levine. You will instantly feel her bright energy as she shares her awesome VBAC story with us.A celebrity stylist and TV personality, Ali is no stranger to being in the limelight. With her first pregnancy, she had glamorous photoshoots, went to flashy events, and made a dreamy birth plan. When the natural water birth of her dreams quickly turned into a traumatic and invasive C-section, Ali was left confused, disappointed, and depressed. Ali drastically changed her approach to birth with her second pregnancy. Once she began researching VBAC, Ali was determined, intentional, and never looked back.Ali's VBAC journey is one of a life-changing, spiritual awakening that we absolutely love and know you will love too. You can also listen to Ali's HBAC story on Episode 264!Additional linksAli's Podcast: Everything with Ali Levine How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and we are so excited. We have been chitchatting with Ali today and she has a really amazing birth story to tell. We cannot wait for you to hear it. I am sitting here in my dentist's parking lot. I literally just got done getting a filling. I had to rush out so that I could be on the call to listen to Ali's story today. And so before we do that, Meagan is going to go ahead and give us a Review of the Week.Meagan: Yes, I am. Oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat. Ali is so fun. We have just been talking to her for like, five minutes and I am just already giddy to hear her story. She has got such a fun, live personality to her. It's going to be awesome. This review is from jovannaf1 and in parentheses, it says “Germany.” So, I am wondering if she is either in Germany or her name is German.Julie: Ooh, that would be fun.Meagan: I know, right? Her title is “Love it.” This is from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Thank you so much for spreading such an important message, ladies. I am currently pregnant with my third child and your podcast has given me so much help and resources to know that VBA2C is possible. I find women's stories so inspiring. Thank you.”And we want to thank you for leaving that awesome review and thank all of you who are listening and support us along this journey. This podcast has been absolutely so much fun. We are so excited to be able to continue offering all of the stories and continue to get submissions. We get submissions all the time and it is always just so awesome to read them even if they are not all shared. We read every single one. They are all incredible. So, thank you, thank you, thank you and if you haven't already, please drop us a review. It means the world to us and we will read it on a podcast one day.Julie: Do you know what is so funny? My mom, I don't even think she knows what a podcast is still. It is so funny because sometimes when we are chatting, I will say, “You know, Mom? Look. Look at these reviews. See? I am actually helping people with what I do. I am really making a difference.” She looks at me and she smiles and she is like, “I know you are.” I am like, “No but really, Mom. Look at all my reviews!”It's just so fun. We really do love them and thank you guys for helping my mom know that I am actually helping people.Meagan: Okay, so we are going to jump into this episode because like I said, you guys are in for a treat. You're going to notice right off the bat, Ali is just such a fun person to listen to. She has had a VBAC and we just need to give her a little introduction if you would not mind, Ali. First of all, can I just tell you? Maybe you've heard this before. This is not VBAC-related. This is in regards to your Instagram page. I don't know why. So, it is Ali Levine and I always read it like “Avril Lavigne” every single time. When you started to contact us, I was like, “Avril Lavigne is contacting us?!”Julie: “He was a skater boy. She said, ‘See you later boy.'”Meagan: I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, it is not Avril Lavigne. It is Ali Levine and, is it LaVINE or LaVEEN?Ali: No, it's LaVEEN. It is so funny because I have had this said to me several times. People will be like, “So, do you know her?” I am like, “I think she is a distant cousin.” Same with Adam. You know what I mean? It's so funny. I have actually styled Adam back in the day when I was styling different celebrities. It is just so funny when people say that to me because I crack up. So, yes, no. I am not Avril Lavigne, but I bring the same kind of flavor, I think, as she does.Meagan: You are so awesome. Yeah, it is just so funny. It is just how it reads. It just automatically goes to Avril Lavigne in my mind, but you are so awesome. We think you are awesome. And, yeah. As you were saying, you are a celebrity stylist, which, how cool is that? Motherhood, fashion, lifestyle expert, and TV personality. I mean, you are going to hear it coming out right here. You are going to see it on her Instagram page. If you haven't, go right now. It is @alilevinedesign. So, it is @alilevinedesign. Go check her out. It is super fun. I think you actually have a couple, like Everything with Ali Levine, right? Like, you have a couple of pages.Ali: Yes, that's my podcast.Meagan: That's your podcast.Ali: Everything with Ali Levine is my podcast, yes.Meagan: Yes. Ali Levine. So, go listen to her. It is just so fun. So, okay. I am just going to read your bio. Is that okay?Ali: Whatever you want.Meagan: Whatever I want, all right. So it says, “Ali Levine believes that no matter where you roam, from the laundry room to the red carpet, authenticity is your superpower and confidence is your best accessory.”I love that. The week your podcast goes on, we need to make a little word blurb and put that and put your name in that. It's amazing.Julie: I can make a shirt. I want to make a shirt.Meagan: Do it. Let's do it. “The New York-hotshot-turned-Hollywood style maven delivers a real, raw look at her own motherhood journey amid the treasures she's uncovered in the universal search for authenticity, spiritual wholeness, and happiness.”Seriously, so excited to have you. I know that you have two beautiful daughters. We are excited to hear about both of their births. So, before I take up all the time ranting and raving about how awesome you are, let's let everyone hear about how awesome you are from you and your awesome story.Ali: Aw. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we started recording-- truly, I am so honored to be here tonight. I listen to you guys literally every day still, now. I was listening my entire pregnancy. My doula, Stacey, has given your podcast to so many different clients when she is like, “Hey, this client is struggling. What should I have them listen to?” And I am like, “Have them listen to The VBAC Link.” You guys have been such a godsend, truly. Especially during the pandemic, and everything that was going on with my birth, and plans changing every day, the only solid piece I had was with you guys. I literally had you in my ear as much as humanly possible to keep putting the intention that I was going to get my VBAC and I did with my second daughter. It was so freaking magical and healing. It makes me cry still.Meagan: Well, I love it because one of the things that I feel sometimes weird about even though it's my own podcast is, I still go back and listen to all the stories. I am not having babies anymore. I am not preparing for a VBAC, but all of these stories are just so inspiring. And honestly, they help me because I can send these to my clients. So many of these are powerful and educational for my own clients, so I am excited to hear that both you and your doula are still with us. You're still hanging out with us even though you rocked your VBAC and, yeah. We are just so excited that you are with us.Ali: Well, thank you. I agree with you completely and if there is anything I have learned from my social media and my own podcast, it is that beautiful authenticity, that sharing of that real and rawness, and being able to be vulnerable and share all of that. Not only is it so healing and beautiful for the individual, but it is so empowering for the other women listening and for the moms that are going through it. It is like, we are all there for each other and in that sense, we are all really going for our VBAC and when you get to hear these other stories-- like, during my pregnancy, I remember finding you guys randomly when I was searching for VBAC support and I was listening. I just started falling in love with the stories and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I could picture myself in that position. Oh my gosh.” And to feel like I could do it, it was such an empowering feeling. So, kudos to you guys, truly, for this show.Meagan: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It has been so rewarding. It truly has.Ali: That's amazing.Julie: Yeah, thank you. It is fun to come full circle, where we have people who were listening to the podcast and are on the podcast. I just feel like it is really cool when you were listening to the stories, and you were getting inspired by the stories, and then you get to share your story now and inspire other people. Then, we have this domino effect where people are listening to the podcast, and then sharing their stories, and then others are listening to their stories and then sharing their stories. It is just this really cool community and platform that we have built. It just makes me really happy.Ali: No, I love it. And you can hear that with you guys. Like, truly. Every time you listen, you hear that happiness and how much you guys celebrate everyone who is on and their stories and it is like-- something that I have learned with my second daughter is, birth is truly beautiful. It is something that I honestly with my first, especially after having quite a traumatic C-section, I really was in a fear-based place. I am so grateful that I switched from that fear to that love, and that transformation, and all that because it really is. As intense as it can be, the more you can be intentional, the more you can empower yourself, no matter what the circumstance, it is transformational and it is life-changing and so many ways. Not just in, of course, the fact that you give birth, but in my opinion, you are reborn. There is a spiritual awakening, at least for myself. It has just been so magical for me to get to really, really dive into it. And so, I am excited to share it with you guys.Meagan: Well, we are excited to hear it.Ali: All right, so going back to Amelia. When I got pregnant-- we talked about the fact that I am a celebrity stylist and I do a lot with television and Hollywood and all of that. And so, when I got pregnant, I had just come off of being on a show on Bravo, so people nationally knew my pregnancy. A lot more eyeballs were watching my pregnancy than I expected them to be and watching my journey, which was really amazing and cool, but also a lot of pressure at the same time.I really didn't realize how much it played into my actual pregnancy and birth. When I was in the midst of thinking about what I wanted to have for a birth plan, I was of course very much in the mindset of like, “I really want to have a natural birth, and I want to have a tub birth, and I want it to be beautiful, and I want flowers, and I want this, and I want that.” I am a more natural person in general in how I like to do things. I like to seek out natural options before I go to something else. And so for me, it felt like it really aligned and it was what I wanted to do.I honestly didn't really do my research or homework into what that looked like. I got a midwife. I got a doula, but I didn't do research beyond that. I didn't really look into what it potentially could be. It was more just like I made sure I had my team and I made sure I had a backup doctor with that team in case things didn't go that way just to make sure I was safe, and that was it. I didn't really do much research I guess I would say.And so, once it came time for me when I went into labor-- First off, I will share that I was getting really fed up with everybody asking me when I was going to pop when I was going to have the baby. My parents were sitting and looking at me like this balloon that was going to pop and I am like, “Oh my gosh. It is okay. I am fine. They checked. The baby is fine. I am fine.” But every two seconds it was like, “Why haven't you gone into labor? How come she hasn't come yet?” I was like, “I don't know.” It was a lot of pressure, honestly. I got so fed up at around-- I think it was at 40 weeks and I said to my husband, “I can't deal anymore. If one more person asks me, I am going to lose it.” So, I took castor oil, which I don't advise.Meagan: I did that with my first birth too.Ali: Did you? Okay.Meagan: Yes, and everyone was asking me the same questions. I had one coworker who was like, “Do I need to get you a wheelbarrow to wheel you around the office?” I am like, “Shut up.”Ali: Right. Nobody wants to hear that. It is funny for a minute and then you are like, “Please, just let me be because clearly, I am uncomfortable, and I am trying to be at peace with this, and I am trying to allow my baby to come when they are supposed to come,” which, you know. It is easier said than done. And then you're sitting there and they are like, “Well, you haven't popped yet.” My mom was like, “Well, I had you and they had to induce me. Well, what if that is what you need? What is going on?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh. Let's just leave all of the pressures off of me please and let my body do its thing.” I couldn't deal.So, I took castor oil. It did definitely jumpstart something because all of a sudden, five hours later, my water broke and I was going into labor. But I went into pre-labor and pre-contractions because of the castor oil. And so, we think that now, obviously in hindsight, that it probably pushed her too fast and she wasn't ready. Because first off, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I went into my birth center to my midwife and I wasn't really dilated past even a 3, and so she sent me home and was like, “You know, go home and go to sleep. Try to do this and try to do that.” Of course, I couldn't do any of those things. I was losing it at home trying to stay calm and wait for her to come. We went back to my birth center and then I was finally progressing a little bit more. I still wasn't active, but she took me because I think she felt bad that I was struggling.And so, we go to my midwife's birth center and we are there. Hours of really hardcore, manual, full-blown natural labor, really doing the work. Squatting, on the toilet, on the ball, in the shower, in the bed, on all fours, just constant, constant, and it was a good day of full-blown movement trying to get my body to do what I needed to do, and progress, and make things happen.I finally started getting too active and she was like, “All right. Let's transition you to the tub so that we can get you ready and get you comfortable if that's where you want to be. I got in the tub and I immediately felt super sick, and super overwhelmed, and dehydrated, and also nauseous. I threw up. She was like, “All right. Let's get you out.” So, I got back on the ball. I got back on the toilet and I felt awful.So then, they lowered the water in the tub and everything. My doula was putting a washcloth on me, and essential oils, and trying to calm me. I could feel that I just felt off. We went back into the tub because I told her that I really wanted to give birth there and so she was like, “All right. Let's breathe, and take our time, and see where we are.” At that point, I was in the tub and I was almost at 30 hours of being in labor. She was like, “You know, you are only at the beginning of active labor. I think I was technically at 6-6.5, something like that. I wasn't fully progressing. She was getting concerned that things weren't really fully progressing and I was really losing my stamina and my strength because I had been pushing and moving for so long.She was like, “Let's talk about interventions.” Of course, being someone who did want natural and had a “birth plan” and all that, I wanted nothing to do with that. I was like, “No, no, no. I want to just stay here. Let me just progress. Leave it alone.” She stepped out of the room, my midwife, and made a phone call to the backup doctor at the hospital to let him know what she was thinking. I guess, of course, they advised each other that I should go in. And so, they got me out of the tub. That was a whole scene in itself. That could have been on a freaking reality show. It was like, getting me out, my parents are in the waiting room. We asked them not to be there, and they're pacing, and they're flipping, and everything is a mess. Everyone is flipping out. “Am I okay? What is happening?” It was just so much pressure.I get into my husband's truck. I am fine. I am in active labor, but I am totally fine. Baby is safe and I am fine. We drive over to the hospital. I get there and they check me in and I get to my room. They checked me and they were like, “All right. You progressed a little bit more, but she is stuck in the birth canal at this point. So we are going to give you some Pitocin to ramp things up and try to move her.” They put me on-- I think it was 15, I think, is the highest you can be? I didn't go from a small amount. It was like literally, they cranked me up and I went from full-blown natural-- it was awful. I went from full-blown natural at the birth center in the dark with my music, with my oils, all of that to bright lights, fluorescent, hospital, screaming, panic, everybody in your shit if you will. It was just crazy and then it was like oh, and then this Pitocin that was cranked to no end. I couldn't handle it. I immediately was like, “Oh my gosh. I can't breathe. I feel uncomfortable.” I'm like, crying. I was really struggling. So then they were like, “All right. Well, let's give her an epidural.” They cranked that all the way up. I went from feeling like I couldn't handle it to I couldn't feel anything and then I felt super sick.I threw up again. I just felt awful. I just remember in that moment feeling so down and feeling like I failed at what I was trying to do. I remember even now, that heavy moment of, “What just happened? Why am I here? What is all of this? This is nothing of what I wanted. I was so overwhelmed.” And so fast forward, I got to 40 hours. We spent 10 more hours at the hospital. We got to 40 hours. My doctor came in and was like, “All right. Well, at least you have progressed now to basically complete. We are going to give this a go and have you really push and make this happen.” I am like, “Okay.” And so I am pushing, but I really couldn't feel it to be honest. The epidural, they said, was supposed to wear off, but it was like I really could not-- I just could not feel it.They were like, “Push. Push. Push.” I am pushing. I am pushing. They are like, “Push harder.” I am pushing as much as I could. She comes down. I obviously, really couldn't see her, but everybody else could and they were like, “But then she shot back up in the back birth canal,” which I obviously didn't even know was a thing. And so, she shot down, and then she shot back up. Then they were like, “All right. We are going to go again.” She shot down again. He went to grab her and she shot back up. I just remember my doctor looking at me and being like, “Okay. We are going to take a break and then I will be back.”He went and actually said to me, “I am going to go get dinner and then come back.” At first, I was like, “Oh, that is so rude,” but my doula and midwife advised me because they were still there with me. They advised me that the reason he did that was to buy me more time because if he wasn't present technically there shouldn't have had me had a baby without him unless it was an emergency.So they were like, “He is buying you time.” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn't realize at that time that there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made. What are we going to do? What are we going to keep trying? Are we going to do something else? C-section hadn't even been in my mind because I hadn't even been talked to about a C-section, prepped around a C-section, like nothing. So I was not thinking that at all. I was just thinking, “We are just going to wait longer. I am going to rest and we are going to go again.” Everybody leaves the room. My husband sits with me and he turns to me. We were at almost 42 hours at this point. He looks at me and he goes, “Don't you want to meet her now?” I started bawling. I am like, “Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Of course, I want to meet her now, but I have done so much work. I want things to go the way I want them to go. They weren't already going the way I wanted them to go when we were at the birth center.”He's like, “I know, but you are so tired. You have been such a warrior. Don't you just want to meet her and let yourself rest? We will have her.” Of course, I burst into tears and I was just like, “Fine, I guess.” I just let go. I remember being so upset and feeling so defeated in that moment because I got to those 42 hours and I had gotten to basically complete. So much had played out and I was convinced that “Okay. At least I was going to have her vaginally in a hospital.” And then it was just like, “Nope.” I get rolled Into the OR and have my C-section. Thank God, it was so fast. It was probably not even 10 minutes. They were really, really quick and she was right there. I have to say that they did an amazing job and I was so grateful. But it was just so not obviously what I envisioned or imagined. I just remember after getting back in the room and the initial shock and then putting me with her and everything, I just remember feeling like, “Oh my god, I am so happy to have her in my arms,” but I just felt like I had failed and my body had failed.It was such a debilitating feeling. I felt so numb in me, even though I was so blissfully happy about her. It was like a wild rollercoaster of emotions, you know? Because I was so happy to have her and so excited to finally hold my baby, but at the same time, I was almost dead inside. Like, what happened? Why did things play out like that? What is that? Do you know?For those that have followed my story, you know shortly after having my first daughter, I had pretty heavy postpartum depression. I do believe a lot of my birth played into that. When I got pregnant again with Arley, I really made the intention of, “I really don't want to go through that again if I don't have to. I really want to be smart about doing my research this time around my birth. What can I do to prepare my body? How can I be more intentional internally and not externally?” Because I felt like with Amelia-- again, I was a new mom. I had no idea what I was getting into, so to me, it was like, “Oh, you just give birth. No big deal. Everybody does it.” I didn't prep my body. I didn't do anything. The only thing I did was take maternity photoshoots that were glamorous. I just did all of the checkboxes of the things in the external world and all the glam. With Arley, I was like, “No.” I am going to be so intentional about what I am going to do, what I need to do, and do my research and talk to my birth communities around me now that I know them from sharing my experience and everything with Amelia.Luckily, I had so many incredible people around me who advised me to get a chiropractor right when I got pregnant to get my body aligned. So I found a chiropractor who specialized in VBACs and aligned with her right at three weeks when I was pregnant. I stayed with her my entire pregnancy. I found people who could do labor stimulation massage for later in the game and a doula that had also been a part of VBACs. Just all of these different entities that I didn't realize were so important. And then most importantly, when I got pregnant with Arley, I went to my regular prenatal doctor, and the first thing she says to me after “Congratulations” is, “Okay, now let's schedule your C-section.” I looked at her and I said, “Whoa. First off, I am just swallowing the fact that I am pregnant again. Secondly, I don't want to do a C-section.” She was like, “Well since you already had one, I am advising you to have one.”I was like, “Well, with all due respect, I know that I can have a VBAC.” She was like, “Well, I really don't advise it. I really think you should have a C-section.”Julie: Wow.Ali: Isn't that wild? That was my reaction. Julie: Like, right off the bat, even. Not even discussing anything.Ali: Nope. No discussion. It was like, “I know better. Here is this information.” Gave me a folder, the whole nine yards of my risks, the whole thing, the whole fear-mongering. Thank God I had so many people around me in the birth community from Amelia that they had all told me that just wasn't true and that the success rate was way higher than people realize and discuss. It was funny because I actually learned about VBACs when I was on Berlin's podcast. I'm spacing on his name. Dr. Berlin.Meagan: Elliot? Elliot Berlin?Ali: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so, I was on his podcast and he wanted to share my birth story with Amelia. After I was on it, he turned to me and he goes, “You know, you could still have another baby vaginally.” I was like, “No, I can't.” He was like, “Yeah, you can.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “It's called a VBAC. They happen all the time.” He was like, “It has nothing to do with the way--” and this and that. It was like this reality of what had been told to me and preached to me all of a sudden just burst in front of me. It was like, “Wait. Unlearn everything you were just told and pay attention. Zoom in to what you're being told now and learn.” And so, I did. Once I got pregnant with Arley, I knew I wanted to at least attempt a VBAC and get myself aligned body-wise, intentionally, mind-wise, soul, everything to do that. Once that doctor said that to me, I was like, “Well, I am sorry but I am not going to stay with you because you are not for me if you are not going to at least try to let me have a VBAC.” And so, I parted ways with her. I was so grateful she showed me her true colors right from the beginning because I know some doctors can bait and switch from what I have heard. She let me know right from the beginning and so then I started reaching out to different doulas and people to give me references. I landed on Dr. Brock who is in Los Angeles who is literally known as “The VBAC King”. You guys will appreciate that.That's literally what people call him. “The VBAC King”.Julie: I want to know more about The VBAC King, but it's okay.Ali: Totally fine. It's all good. So actually, it is funny that you guys bring up Elliot because Elliot and he have actually worked together in several births. Because a lot of people in LA go to him, if a baby is breech, they go to Dr. Brock because he is the only doctor known in Los Angeles to turn a breech baby. He is amazing. And so, I went to him. I asked for a referral to go see him because he is really hard to get into. I sit with him and I am twiddling my thumbs when he comes in. I am pregnant and he is like, “What is going on with you? Why are you so nervous?” I remember looking at him and I said quietly to him, “I want to discuss a VBAC.” He is like, “What?” “I want to discuss having a VBAC.” And he is like, “What is there to discuss?” He was like, “I did three this morning. What is the problem?”Meagan: Oh my gosh! Yeah.Julie: Best feeling ever.Ali: It was the best feeling ever. I looked at him and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that's it?” Because I felt so shamed and wronged with that other doctor. And so, when he was so open to me and he was just like, “Yeah.” The nurse was so funny that was in there. She was taking my stats and she was like, “He does them literally every day and sometimes three times. It is not a big deal.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.”He was like, “Yeah. We will just monitor you. We are going to check your scar and make sure everything is together. As long as everything looks good, we will plan to do it, and if things down the road change, we will have a conversation.” He was like, “But I don't see why not. You look like a great VBAC candidate.” He was all for it day one. I was so grateful that he was so supportive and his team and everything. And so fast forward, he checked my scars several times and everything looked good, thank God. Baby was growing great and everything was happening. We get to when the pandemic hits. The world changes. I went from, “Okay, you can't have your doula” to “Now, you can't have your husband at the hospital.” It was becoming really intense for me because here I am, I really want to go for my VBAC and I want to have my support system, and now I'm not going to even have anybody. How is this going to work? Am I going to be able to have my VBAC? I am not going to lie, I was in a lot of fight-or-flight mode. I started researching home birth and HBACs at home. I started really doing research and talking to midwives and other people who were home doctors in case my husband couldn't be with me. Because to me, it was one thing not to have Stacey, my doula, but it was another not to have my husband. I just felt like he had been through so much with me through Amelia that I couldn't imagine not having him with Arley. Thank God, I think Arley knew. She held on because she literally came right at 42 weeks and they had just opened the hospitals back up a week before. And so, my husband was allowed to come and be with me. I really felt like she held out for him. But it was funny the week before, actually a week and a half probably before, Dr. Brock, as great as he was, he is still a doctor. Near the end, especially with the pandemic and everything, he was just like, “Well, you know, you're getting close and you still haven't gone into labor. Maybe we should just induce.”I was like, “No. I don't want to. I really want to give my body a shot.” He kept pushing me. He was like, “Well, let's do a sweep. Let's do this. Let's do that.” I finally got a sweep a week before. Nothing happened. It was just painful for me. He was like, “All right.” We did another sweep a few days later and nothing was happening. He was like, “Let me just induce you. Let me just--” and I was like, “Dr. Brock. With all due respect, you have been so supportive of me through this whole experience. Please, just let me get to the final mark, and if things don't happen then, then fine. We will do it.” I think it was maybe four or five days before and he kind of, not went back on his word, but I think he had moments because all of this was going on with the pandemic. He was just like, “Look.” He was like, “I am going to schedule the induction. It is going to be tomorrow,” and this and that. I remember leaving there and I felt really powerless. I was really upset and I came home. It was my eight-year anniversary with my husband. I turned to him and I was like, “I don't want to do it. I don't want to go in tomorrow.” He was like, “All right. Let's talk through it.”He is very logical and he was like, “Let's talk through it. What's going on? Why don't you want to?” I just told him, I was like, “It just doesn't feel right. I have worked so hard to be so intentional around this birth from my chiropractor to finding a supportive doctor, to the right doula, to even different workouts, meditation, The VBAC Link podcast, just all kinds of things that I really surrounded myself with material-wise and tool-wise.” So I was like, “It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't align.”He was like, “All right. Well, if you feel that way, then don't go.” I called my doula and she was like, “Look. At the end of the day, you would be your own advocate. Everything is good with you and the baby. They run tests. Everything is cool. So at this point, it is really just a waiting game. So if you really don't want to, then you voice that. You call and you cancel and you cancel the induction.” I remember calling Cedars-Sinai and canceling. I called and they were like, “Oh, we don't even have your name on the list.” I was like, “Oh.” They were like, “But we will let Dr. Brock know.” It was funny because it was such a build-up to call. I felt like I was being a bad kid in school. So I was so nervous to call and cancel. I was dancing in my room for hours to call. I finally called and they were like, “Oh, you're not even on the schedule.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Well, just let them know I am not coming.”The next day, I got a call from my doctor and Dr. Brock is like, “Come in. I want to do a nonstress test on you.” So I go in, everything is cool. He was like, “All right, so you pushed against me.” He was like, “Message received. You're not doing it.” I am like, “No. I am not.” And he is like, “All right.” He is like, “It is fine.” He is like, “Everything is good. Tests are good. I just thought you'd want to have her birthday. Don't you want to have her already?” I am like, “I do want her here, but I want her here on her terms. If there is anything I learned from my first birth, it's not about me. I don't want to do it on my terms.” He was like, “Okay, fine. It is fair.” So then he was like, “If you don't go--” because now, I was at the end of 41 weeks and 8 days or whatever. You know, when you get close to 42. He was like, “This weekend if you don't go, on Monday, we are going to schedule the induction.” I was like, “Fine. That is fair.”So that weekend came and it was Friday. I wasn't getting any kinds of signs of going into labor. I was getting a lot of that prodromal labor that you guys always talk about which is the start-and-go, and you actually contract, and you think you're in labor, but then it stalls out. That was happening for weeks to me. I was like, “What is this?” It kept happening and happening. That happened again on Friday and it just like-- nothing. My doula sent me to get acupuncture. I did that to stimulate things. That actually, I think, really helped. I did that Friday and I did that on Saturday. I went back-to-back and it really stimulated things and moved things around, I think, from what I could feel. My husband was also doing acupressure with my points at home that she had shown me.At this point, my doula had said to me, “Okay. In my opinion, I feel like there is something more to this than your body.” It reminded me of one episode, well, many episodes I listened to with you guys, but there was one specifically where you guys really hone in on fear releasing. She was like, “I really feel like there's something going on with you and we need to work through it.” So we did a recording of my birth story of Amelia‘s birth with her, just her and I recording everything, getting it out. She was like, “Okay. Now it is out. Let's process it. Let's release it. Wrap it up in a pretty bow and that's it. We are going to move past it.” I was like, “Okay.” We did that on Friday. And then, we did some more rebozo and this and that. We met up outside at a park and everything and talked things through. Saturday came and she was like, “All right. I know you are getting close and you are getting concerned.” She was like, “What else can we do to help you release this?” I was like, “I don't know. I am just so afraid of a C-section. I am so afraid of this. I am so afraid of that.” She was like, “All right.” She goes, “When you get home, you are going to write down--” And I remember learning this from you guys. She said, “You are going to write down what you told me you listened to on The VBAC Link, which was to write down your fears and release them.” She was like, “I want you to do that because I feel like there is more to this.” And so, I went back and listened to a bunch of your guys' episodes and I wrote down on pieces of paper all of the different things I was afraid of. Getting an induction, stalling out, getting a C-section, getting stuck in the birth canal, all of the things. Being on Pitocin, getting an epidural, all of the things I was truly afraid of and I burned each and every one of them. There was such a relief when I burned them. I felt it in my energy and in my body. I started crying. I just felt so good.So then, my husband and I took a walk with our toddler, Amelia. We went around the block and we were just talking and he started talking me through stuff. He was like, “What do you think it is?” I was like, “I don't know. I think I'm just afraid to wind up in another crazy, traumatic birth.” He was like, “Okay. And if God forbid, that happened, what is the worst thing? We come home. You heal. We have our second daughter. It is the four of us as a family. The overall things are fine and we have our girl.” This and that, you know, putting things into perspective for me. I was like, “Yeah, no. You are right.” He is a golfer, a really good golfer. And so, he was walking me through all the strategies for a big tournament and comparing it to getting ready for a birth of the mentality and this and that, but actually, it was really helpful for me. So we come home and we have dinner and he was like, “Let's hang out, and just stay up late, and have a good time.” So we have a little dance party with Amelia. We are playing music videos and just having a good time, dancing and laughing. And then, I go to lay down in bed. I turned on my essential oils and I do a little more acupressure. I say a little prayer. I got in bed and I put meditation in my ears and get the room really dark. I am meditating. I am like, “I am going to go into labor. Things are going to happen. Things are going to happen.” I wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night, nothing is happening. I am getting a little crushed. But I am like, “No. I am going to let it go. Let it go.”I started getting hungry and I was like, “I'm going to go downstairs for a snack.” It was probably around 1:30, maybe 2:00. I start walking down my stairs and I feel this cramp and I am like, “Ooh,” and then I feel it again. I am like, “Ooh.” I get down and I am like, “Ooh, ooh, ooh,” and I can't. I get down on my knees and I can't get up.Julie: I love that.Ali: I am like, “Oh, maybe I'm not going to have a snack.” And so, I crawled up my stairs and I'm like, “Oh, okay. Could this be?” I honestly didn't believe it because I had had so much prodromal labor. I had had so much start-and-go that it was like, “Oh, here we go again.” So I am just like, “Okay. I am just going to go lay back down.” I am crawling, but as I am crawling, it is getting more and more intense. More tightening and I am barely able to crawl. And so, I get up my stairs. I get in my room. My husband is sleeping and snoring. I am like, “Okay. I'm not going to wake him because I have told him so many times that this could be it and nothing is happening.” So I am like, “I am just going to chill.”So I call my doula. I could barely get the words out because I am in quite a bit of squeezing pain, feeling the surges, and she was like, “All right. Do me a favor. Draw your bathtub. Get in the tub. Put in a little bit of your oils and call me back. Let me just hear your breathing.” So I turned the tub on and I had this overwhelming feeling while I was sitting there in my room, just talking to myself of going into Amelia‘s room. I didn't know why. So I crawled into her room and I opened the door and crawl in. She is asleep. I crawl into her chair. I'm sitting there and I start bursting into tears. I am hysterical out of nowhere and I just start babbling and I am like, “I love you. I hope I can be a good mom when I am a mom of two. I have made such an amazing relationship between the two of us so far. I don't want to fail you.” I am just pouring my heart out. She is passed out. I am just crying and crying, just sharing my heart with her and my fear of being a mom of two. I don't want to let her down.And then I remember I said to her, “Okay. I think your baby sister is coming. So the next time I see you, she is going to be here.” I was hysterical. Then I crawl back out, crawled into my tub. I think this was maybe 2:30 or 3:00 at this point. I get in my tub and I call my doula. I start breathing and she was like, “All right. Let's do some meditation.” I had also done some HypnoBirthing between learning for Amelia's birth and then for Arley's birth. So I am doing HypnoBirthing in the tub. She is guiding me. My contractions were 11 minutes apart, so they weren't that close. So she was like, “Okay. We are just going to let you stay in the tub. Meditate. Stay in your zone. Let's see what happens.”Shortly after, not even an hour, she was like, “Okay. You are eight minutes. You're seven. Oh, okay.” She was like, “Okay, Ali. You need to wake Justin up. You are getting to be close to six minutes apart. You have got to get ready to go.” I was like, “Wait, what?” You know, because I was so in the zone at that point. I wasn't even listening to her count. I was so in my zone in the tub, in the darkness, meditating, really bringing the affirmations of having my VBAC and talking to Arley. I was just so in it, more so than I think I even realized I was. And so she was like, “You need to get out. You need to get up. You need to get to the hospital.” Justin, of course, doesn't know. My husband doesn't hear me. He is sleeping and snoring. I am screaming from the bathtub and he doesn't hear me. I'm like, “Babe. Babe! I am in labor. We have to go to the hospital.” He doesn't hear me, so my doula calls him and wakes him up. He is like, “What is going on?” She is like, “Ali is in labor. You have got to get ready to go.” He goes into the bathroom and of course, he is making fun of me as he usually does and his sarcasm. He is like, “Oh, I hear a ghost or something.” I am like, “Oh my god.” He literally is like, “Oooh. Ooooh. What is that noise? Ooooh.” I am like, “Ha, ha. That is so you.” I am like, “Come over here and squeeze my hands. I am losing my shit.” That is his personality, by the way. He gets me out. We are getting everything ready to go and getting everything in the truck to leave. My doula ended up coming down to make sure I was okay, but also because my friend was supposed to be here for Amelia had I gone into labor in the middle of the night, but wasn't picking up her phone because they probably just thought, “Oh, I am going to hear my phone go off.” And so, my doula came rushing out so that we could leave so that somebody could watch her since we couldn't bring her, especially with COVID and everything.She comes and she sees me off. I get in the truck and I am in full-blown active labor. I am transitioning. I am shaking. I'm convulsing. I am screaming. I'm trying to stay zen. I am screaming while I am meditating. This whole thing in his truck. We arrive there. I am screaming when we get out of his truck. They pull up. They bring the wheelchair. I won't forget. They put me in a wheelchair and they were shoving this mask in my face. I am screaming through the mask. I am trying to rip the mask off because I'm screaming. It was a whole thing.I get into the room. They get me in and my doula was immediately on my FaceTime. Stacey was like, “Okay.” Thank God for her. She was like, “Turn the lights down. Let's get it to be zen for her again. Get her out of the bright lights. Let's calm things down. Justin put out her crystals. Let's get her intention cards up. Get the little lights up.” Stacey is orchestrating everything from FaceTime. Justin is getting everything together and I am sitting there and breathing through. I am still natural at this point. I am just breathing through my contractions as much as I can and screaming at all of that. They checked me and I am 6.5. They're like, “All right. Well, you're definitely active and ready to go. You are progressing, so we are going to let you progress.” I think I got to almost a 7, or out of 7, and I really was having a hard time. I was really having a hard time breathing. It was getting really intense. Stacey was like, “Look. If you want to get an epidural, just get the epidural.”But, I had so much fear around getting an epidural because of Amelia‘s birth. I was like, “I don't want to. I am too afraid. I don't want to get stuck. Let me just keep going.” But I wasn't fully progressing because I was struggling. I was like, “Okay. I'm going to get an epidural.” Luckily at Cedars-- I know some hospitals don't have this, but Cedars does. I had been advised by a couple of other doulas to get a walking epidural if I could, even though I wouldn't be walking anywhere, obviously, because of the world, but I could walk in my room. And so, I got a walking epidural and for me, that was just enough to take the edge off, but not enough to numb where I could walk around and I could be on the ball. I could do hip exercises on the side of the bed. I could get on all fours. I could keep switching positions. Even when I was in the bed, I had a peanut ball being switched between my legs. I was moving constantly. I was never still. I think that was a really big game changer and helpful for me when it came to progressing because shortly after, I was at complete.We arrived at the hospital around 6:00 a.m. and by noon, I was complete. It was pretty fast for me compared to Amelia. It was like, “Oh, wow. This is happening. I have got to complete.” The doctor comes in. Dr. Brock is like, “All right. You are complete, but you are not--” I forget the stations when you are at the last station, but you're not fully there where the baby can come out. What is that called?Julie: Yeah, like +2 or +3 station.Meagan: Yeah, or even +4.Ali: Yes. Yeah, whatever it was, like the lowest one. I was almost there, but I wasn't there yet. He had said that. I was like, “Oh, okay.” He was like, “But don't worry. We are going to figure out getting her down. Let's get you to move more. Let's do some more pushing. Let's do this.” You know, I didn't realize that because of Amelia‘s birth, even though the labor was so intense with her, my body remembered that, which is wild. The muscle memory of that.I hadn't really fully pushed with Amelia, so it was pushing like a new mom, which I didn't expect to go through. I pushed for 2.5 hours after we had been told I was ready to go and was complete. I was really working, working. I had the squat bar. I was pushing. I was on the ground. I was on all fours. I was doing everything possible to move her, and keep going, and move her down and everything.She was just right there, but just wasn't happening and then I spiked a fever. Dr. Brock came in and he was like, “Okay. I was all for everything you were doing, but now you spiked a fever. I am concerned for you and the baby. I am sure everything is fine, but I don't want to take any chances, so these are the last pushes and then we are going to have to figure something out because I am not going to let you go longer because of the fever.” Of course, they had given me medication at this point to bring the fever down.And so, he had turned to me and he was like, “All right. We are going to do a vacuum to try and help you get her out. Once I get the vacuum, you are going to have to push with all your might. It is just going to be to assist and then you're going to have to push her out.” He was like, “When I tell you to push, I mean you'd better push with every single thing in you and push until you can't breathe.” I was like “Oh, okay.” I remember being in the bed, and looking at Justin, and even reflecting on it myself, and being like, “Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I got this far and here we are again. I am freaking going to have a C-section.” I was really starting to go into fight-or-flight. I was getting really, really upset. My doula was trying to calm me over FaceTime. She was like, “It's okay. We are still in control. It's okay. Breathe. Just allow things to play,” and I am in total panic at this point. I looked at Justin and I said, “Can I have my earbuds please?” I put them in my ear. I turned on one of my fear-releasing meditations. I shut my eyes. I remember praying really, really hard and just being really intentional. Like, “I can make this happen. This is going to happen. I can do this. Come on, Ali. You can do this.”Before I knew it, it was like, “Push.” I pushed so hard and the next thing I knew, there she was on my chest, screaming. I was hysterically crying. I couldn't even believe that she was there. I honestly didn't even feel her fully come out because everything was happening. It was so wild. I remember them putting her on my chest and I was bawling because I was like, “Oh my god, I did it. Oh my god. Oh my god. She's here. Oh my god.” It was the most surreal experience and so healing in that moment for me of just being like, “Holy crap. I did it. My body did it.” Even now, I get choked up because I still can't believe it happened.Meagan: I'm sure in that whole moment there was just such that rush.Julie: Yeah, wild.Meagan: Yeah, okay. I have to do this right now. And then, boom. You did it.Julie: Yeah. It sounds like she came so fast when it was time.Ali: Yeah, well once he put the vacuum on and was like, “Okay, push.” He gave me that bar--Meagan: The assistance, yes.Ali: Yeah, the assistance and gave me that bar and was like, “Push down.” I just remember I pushed with everything in me. I pushed and holy crap. She was here. She was 9 pounds, 3 ounces, by the way.Meagan: Yeah, girl!Ali: Amelia was 8 pounds, 7 ounces and I thought that was big. Arley was 23.5 inches long so it was like, oh my gosh. I couldn't believe that I got her out. It was truly amazing to me. It was so empowering. It was like, “Holy crap. My body did it.” It was so amazing. After having her on my chest and holding her, I was just bawling. I just couldn't even believe it happened.Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was just such an amazing moment. It sounds like she just needed to come into that pubic bone and then she was there. Oh, well congratulations.Ali: Thank you.Meagan: So awesome.Ali: It was so magical. It really was. I just felt so much support around me through my whole pregnancy. It's funny you say the pubic bone too because my chiropractor-- she kept adjusting me. Even the day before I went into labor, she adjusted me. She kept adjusting me and adjusting my hips and doing this, and my sciatica and everything to make sure I was as aligned as possible. But I think in a way it was kind of like me being tested, like how bad do you want this thing? Because when you guys were saying “the rush”, I felt like I could have either gone into fight-or-flight and I could have been like, “Oh my gosh,” in panic and allowed myself to not have that release that you guys talk about all the time, but I think because I did release, and I did allow her to come, and I got really intentional and listened to the fear releasing in my ears, I think it was all divine. And there she was.Julie: Yeah. It's incredible what can happen when you have that release of emotions. Fear in the birth space is real and it can really hold you up if you let it.Ali: Mhmm, yeah. You're right.Meagan: So awesome. Now, she is just crawling around and being such a big girl.Julie: Oh, such a fun age.Ali: It is wild how fast. I feel like I just had her and I am like, “Oh my gosh, she is already crawling everywhere.” I literally turn around and she is down the hallway and I am like, “Oh, hey girlfriend.” It is crazy.Julie: Wow.Ali: You know, but in a wild way, this whole thing with the pandemic and 2020, for me, is such a blessing because it has been such a healing time for me between my VBAC, and having the family time, and having my husband home to be there with me with my girls, and truly not experience postpartum depression. I am just so grateful for it.Julie: That's awesome. That is really cool. We are living in a really crazy world right now and whenever we hear incredible birth stories coming out of this pandemic, it warms my heart. I don't know. I could go off on five or six different tangents right now, but Meagan, what should we talk about? What should we talk about for an educational piece?Meagan: Well, I love that she talked about fear releasing and self-advocacy. One of the things that I love that your doula did-- so birth workers, listen up if you are listening. They sat and they recorded. I love that she was like, “We are going to wrap it up, and seal it with a bow, and send it off.” That is so cool. It is such a powerful way, just talking about it, and getting it out there, and hearing yourself say it, and then maybe even watching it, and then saying, “Okay. That is how I felt and this is how I feel. This is why I am moving on from this fear because of this.” And then of course moving on and doing the other activities. It is so powerful.I know I probably have talked about this until I'm blue in the face, but it really came down for me-- like, I had worked through so much and there was still stuff that I found in the very moment of labor that I didn't realize that I had worked through. It's just so, I don't know. It is just so crazy how you think you have worked through it, and then it comes up, and you are like, “Oh, wait. That didn't come up during my pregnancy,” and you have to work through it again. But if you have practiced and worked really, really hard processing during your pregnancy, then it won't be so foreign. That's the word that is coming to my mind and maybe that's the wrong word.Julie: Unfamiliar, maybe?Meagan: Yeah. It just won't be so unfamiliar and foreign in the moment to process. I know it would make processing during that time easier.Julie: Yeah. I agree, 100%. Gosh, I mean, Meagan and I have both seen the same thing with our individual doula clients and working with parents through our VBAC preparation course. I actually just had a one-on-one consult with somebody preparing for VBAC a couple of weeks ago. Most of the time when we get hung up, and when there are things holding us back, and we feel like something's not quite right, it is stemming from fear. When you can take out that fear, and write it out, and tear it up, and break it apart, and figure out where it is coming from, that is when you can really move past it in order to create a really, really clear birth space that is conducive to a nice, peaceful birth that is just happy and that you can look back on with really fond memories.Ali: Yeah. I love that. I think it is so well beautifully said and so true. You know, it is so crazy because again, when we were talking at the beginning of this podcast, with Amelia, it was obviously a normal world. I was at events and doing all of this glamorous stuff. I was doing maternity photoshoots and all of these things. And you know, fast forward to Arley and it was like, stuck at home and especially in California, very much locked down. You know, everything. It was so wild how different in that sense the world was, but yet, even in such a chaotic world, it really was such a peaceful birth. And then in such a normal world, Amelia was such a chaotic birth. So I just find that, like you were just saying, so telling when it comes to that fear and that processing of all of that and the actual intention around it. It really does, in my opinion, make such a difference. I have seen it in my own birth.Julie: Yeah. It absolutely does. Well, Ali, not Avril. It was so great to talk to you. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and chat about everything for hours. I feel like we are friends. I just love at the end of the episode, all these podcast episodes that we do where sometimes, it's really hard to say goodbye. It's like, “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.”Meagan: I know. It is so true. So true. We are like, “Wait. Can we hang out, like, tomorrow?”Ali: Right?Julie: Let's go to lunch. Where do you live again?Meagan: California.Ali: Yes, please. When we are open and normal, please do. I mean, I am so honored to be here. I truly love everything you guys are doing with your show and everything at The VBAC Link. I truly, like I said, still listen. I tell everyone to listen. I just think it is such an amazing space for women who need that kind of support. Especially women who really do want to have a VBAC and don't have those kinds of resources. I think that too many times we are told so much in birth, but especially with VBAC, “No,” and they put the fear around it from the beginning.I was so grateful that when that woman tried to really instill the fear in me that I knew better and that I was able to work past it because I feel for so many who just don't have that. That's why I was so grateful when I landed on The VBAC Link podcast because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Look at all of these amazing stories. I could be one of them too.” And like, holy crap. Here I am.Meagan: You are one of them.Julie: Full circle. I love it.Ali: Yes. Yes.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aisha's episode is full of wisdom and inspiration! With her first two births, Aisha worked so hard to deliver vaginally, but ultimately had two undesired Cesareans. She was told in the operating room that she had uterine dehiscence, was given a special scar, and should never try to deliver vaginally. But her intuition was telling her a different story. She dove into research. She found a community and listened to podcasts like The VBAC Link. She knew a VBA2C was possible, and she knew she had to try. Aisha's VBA2C journey involved interacting with supportive and very unsupportive providers, hiring a fantastic doula, being proactive with labor comfort measures, planning for the unexpected, staying firm in her desires, asynclitic positioning, and pushing her baby boy out in just 45 minutes with a nuchal hand!Aisha's WebsiteThe VBAC Link Blog: VBA2CNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It's The VBAC Link, and we have a VBA2C story coming your way. Have you ever wondered what VBA2C means? If you haven't noticed, in the VBAC world, there are a lot of acronyms. VBA2C is one of them. That means vaginal birth after two Cesareans, meaning that you have had two Cesareans and want to go for a vaginal birth. Big question, what are the chances of having a vaginal birth after two Cesareans? Is it possible? The answer is simply, yes. It is totally possible. Myself and Aisha are living proof today that it is possible. In fact, your chances of a successful VBA2C are similar to those of just a VBAC with one Cesarean. ACOG recommends that VBA2C is a safe option, so today, I want to quickly go over a little bit more instead of a review about some education on vaginal birth after two Cesareans and share a little bit more of our blog. Like I said, ACOG recommends that vaginal birth after two Cesareans is actually a safe option. They say, “It is reasonable to consider women with two previous low transverse Cesarean deliveries to be candidates for TOLAC.” Now, again, there's another one of those acronyms. TOLAC- trial of labor after a Cesarean. I know that is triggering for some. It is pretty much just the medical term of saying that you are having a trial of labor after a Cesarean, so try not to let it impact you too much. But, “for TOLAC and to counsel them based off of the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving a VBAC.” There are lots of things that people might go look through to see if you are eligible for a VBAC after two Cesareans. Now, I'm sure you have probably heard this before, but proven pelvis. If you haven't had a proven pelvis, meaning that your baby has come out vaginally before you've had a vaginal birth or a Cesarean– now when I say this, sometimes we have a vaginal birth, then we will have two Cesareans, and someone wants to go for a VBAC again, so they would be considered a proven pelvis or cervix to a medical staff. But if you haven't had a “proven pelvis”, I hope you guys can imagine my air quotes right now, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be considered as someone who should have a VBAC. It says in our blog, “More important to note, there is no mention of a requirement to have had that previous vaginal delivery.” I wanted to point out that it really is not a necessary thing. I hadn't had a vaginal birth before. My cervix also hadn't made it to 10 centimeters before, so just know that it is still possible. Quickly, there are things that you can do to reduce uterine rupture, and there are also things you can do to increase your chances of VBAC. Again, it's going to be in our blog. I'm going to send you over there after the episode so you can go and read more about it, but some of the things that you can do to minimize the risk of uterine rupture is staying away from induction. Now, can VBAC be induced? Yes, they can. Yes, yes, yes, yes, you can, so I don't want you to totally freak out right now. But, staying away from induction for VBAC is better than going to get induced. It does increase our chance of uterine rupture, and it does increase our chances of other things like interventions that are unnecessary. Unless it's absolutely necessary or totally desired, try to stay away from induction. Avoid augmentation of labor so things like Pitocin and other drugs to cause the uterus to contract more than it naturally would. Okay, let's see. Avoid providers who aggressively intervene or want to manage your labor or come at you with fearmongering tactics. You guys are going to hear some of that here, and honestly, I think it's a common thing with these stories. We are getting a lot of fearmongering here. Providers, if you are listening, knock it off. Goodness gracious, we do not need to add fear to something that has been looming over us because VBAC has such a bad rap in the world, and it's so scary. Again, air quotes, guys. Just stop with the fearmongering. Avoid providers who are going to build you up with things– I should say tear you down, but fill you up with things like, “Your baby is looking too big. I don't know. We should probably induce. I don't know if your baby is going to be able to come out because you are really small, and that baby is looking really big. Oh my gosh, you have to have an epidural. Oh my gosh, you have to have your baby by 39 weeks.” There are so many things. It's annoying. Okay, going back to avoiding rupture. Avoid or delay things like getting an epidural until at least the end if possible because we do know that sometimes when we get an epidural early in labor, it can bring things like interventions, and we are getting Pitocin that is too high and other things like that. There are so many other things here, you guys. I'm going to make sure that the link is in the show notes. I don't want to take too much of our time, so we can make sure that Aisha can share her beautiful VBAC after two Cesarean stories and all that she had done to lead up to this experience. You guys, it's a good one. Something that is very different about this episode is that she actually had a dehiscence with her second which in a lot of the studies and literature for rupture, a dehiscence is often confused or combined with uterine rupture.I really love that this is a different type of story here, so gear up and enjoy. All right, Aisha. Thank you again so much for being here. As we were talking about earlier, VBAC after two Cesareans is so highly requested in our community. So without further ado, I want to turn the time over to you. Aisha: Thank you so much for having me. This is surreal. I feel like this pushed me in some ways. It was a goal of mine. I'm like, “If I make it and do my VBAC after two Cesareans, I'm going to send my story to The VBAC Link.” Yeah. I've listened to you guys. It's been literally almost four years listening to you guys all of the time trying to visualize my birth after hearing other people's stories. It's such a blessing, and I'm honored to be here to be honest. Meagan: Well, thank you so much. Aisha: Of course. Yeah. I mean, if we start from the beginning with my whole birthing journey, I got pregnant in 2018. I really wanted to try out the whole natural route, so I went with a midwife here in Canada. It's covered by the government so whether you go to a midwife or OB/GYN, it's honestly the same thing. It depends on what type of care you want to have. I chose to go with the midwife, and I chose to give birth at a birthing center for my firstborn. Labor started. I never ended up giving birth naturally obviously. I ended up having a 60-hour labor. Yeah. After 60 hours, they declared me failure to progress, and I think my cervix was a bit swollen at that point. The baby had made the meconium in my tummy. Meagan: Oh, yeah. Stressing out is common. Babies poop sometimes, and it doesn't always mean an emergency or anything like that, but when it's happening and other things are happening–Aisha: Exactly. I think I started having a fever and other things like that. At that point, they came to see me. They were like, “Before things turn into an emergency, let's go and have a simple C-section.” I felt very defeated. I worked very hard for a natural birth. I did 40 of those 60 hours all-natural, but after seeing I wasn't progressing– when I was with my midwife, I was 2 centimeters after 40 hours, and at that point, I requested to be transferred to the hospital to get an epidural. When I got the epidural, it worked a little bit on half of my body, but I was having back labor. My baby was posterior, so it did not do much for those pains there. I can say in the moment, I was quite relieved to have the C-section, so everything could be over, but I know afterward, I know womanhood is not defined by how you birth your baby, but I think at that point because that's what I envisioned, I never envisioned a C-section ever in my life, and it affected me. It affected my self-esteem a little bit. Right after that, me being me, I'm such a planner and such a researcher. I researched to see if it's possible to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, and I discovered the whole VBAC world. I signed up in all of the Facebook groups that I could find about VBACs all around the world. I was reading stories. I discovered The VBAC Link at that point. I started listening to the podcast. I also requested, through my midwife, my notes to see what happened. Meagan: Your op reports. Yes. Aisha: I'm like, “Okay. I need to know why I had a Cesarean, why a Cesarean was made, etc.” I checked. I sat down with my midwife at six weeks postpartum. Honestly, it wasn't anything really. They just said it was failure to progress. I had dilated to a 7, and that was that. She was like, “Okay. You can come back when you get pregnant again. You need to wait 2 years or 18 months before you get pregnant again.” Meagan: Mhmm. That's very common.Aisha: That's what I did. I got pregnant when my firstborn, I think, was 15 months. I gave birth exactly two years later almost to the dot. That labor started. Everything was going great. I remember for that pregnancy, I tried to always sit leaning forward, doing all of those exercises because my baby was posterior. I wanted a good posture. I did all of the things. It was in winter here, and in winter, Canada is not the best. I wasn't walking as much and it was COVID too. It was the COVID lockdown. With my first, I was going to the mall a lot, but during the lockdown in 2021, all of the malls were closed. I wasn't going outside much, but I was doing rounds in my house going up and down the stairs and stuff like that. When labor started, I really tried to focus. I think I was doula-ing myself. I never got a doula, but I was doula-ing with all of my research what I knew to do. At some point, I felt like it was time to go to the midwife. I was going there. They checked me. I was at 2 centimeters again. After laboring for 15 hours, then I was a bit defeated. I was like, “No, the same story is going to happen twice.” I continued laboring there. At some point, the contractions were back-to-back with no breaks. At that point, I was like, “Let me be a smart girl and get the epidural again.” She checked me. I was at 3 centimeters. I wasn't progressing fast enough for me. I think I was just in too much pain. I wasn't getting any breaks.I went to the hospital. I think the car ride there did something because it was a 20-minute car ride from the birthing center to the hospital. I was 7 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa. You went from a 3 to a 7 in 20 minutes? Aisha: In 20 minutes. Then I was like, “Okay, it's happening.” I got there. My midwife had already called the hospital and sent my papers. The anesthesiologist was waiting for me. I got the epidural within 5 minutes. They checked me. I was at a 9. Yeah, it went really fast. I was like, “I'm getting this VBAC.” Everybody was excited. I was giggling and laughing. My midwife came in. We were waiting for the last little bit. They checked me. I was 9.5, but baby was stationed pretty high. They were like, “Okay, let's try to bring baby down.” They made me change positions, but as they were doing that, the baby's heart rate dropped. It wasn't picking back up. At that point, it turned into an emergency C-section. The doctor looked at me. She was like, “Your baby is in distress. We don't know why. Nothing is going on. Nothing is changing. We are bringing you to the OR and get baby out. We don't have a choice.” I was so sad. I was at 9.5. I was almost there, but it did not happen. When I was in the operating room, the doctor screamed to me, “Aisha, never do this again.” I'm like, “Why?” She never gave me any more explanation, so me being me, when I was done giving birth, I requested the notes again.Meagan: Hey, listen. This is what I would suggest for anybody and everybody who has had a C-section. Go get your notes. Go get your notes. Aisha: They give so much insight because nobody knows unless this is the only thing that remains with you. You don't have the people to talk to. I saw the notes. I saw that my C-section scar had started to open. I think they called it a dehiscence. Meagan: Dehiscence? It was past a window. It wasn't just stretched. It actually had dehissed. Aisha: Yes. My midwife was like, “Probably that's the reason why she told you to never do this again and not to go for a VBAC again because the uterus had started to open.” Because it had started to open, when she cut me up, it gave me a J-scar so my scar–Meagan: You have a special scar too. Aisha: I have a special scar too. At that point, I'm like, “Okay.” My midwife told me, “If you have a third baby, unfortunately here, we can only follow a VBAC after one Cesarean. We cannot follow a VBAC after two C-sections so you will have to go the OB/GYN route.” Then I got scared because I'm like, “My God, I'm going to have to go to the medical professionals. They're going to turn me down,” and stuff like that. Me being me, I contacted my own personal OB/GYN. I went to see her. I wasn't pregnant or nothing. I wasn't planned on being pregnant anytime soon, but I knew I wanted a third child. I went to him. I was like, “Listen. This is my story. This is my situation. I really want to try for a vaginal birth. I know it can happen.” I went on the Facebook groups again. I registered in all of the VBAC after multiple Cesareans. I went and checked VBAC special scars. I went into all of those groups. I saw it was possible. Women were doing it all over the world. I was like, “Why not me? My body is also capable. Plus, I got to 9.5. That means my body is working. I just had unfortunate circumstances.” That's what I thought. My doctor was like, “You know what? Get pregnant. Come back, and we'll talk about it.” She wasn't closed off to the idea. Fast forward, I got pregnant earlier in 2023. I lost that baby due to miscarriage. I got pregnant again in September. That was a surprise pregnancy. I wasn't really planning for it. When I got pregnant, I was like, “Okay, this is it. This is it. We're going to try to do everything we can to make it happen.” I know for the first 20 weeks, I also tried to relax and release. I felt like my body held so much tension, and I feel like that can hold up to birth. I was trying to go and deal with all of those traumas and things like that that I hadn't dealt with in my previous births. Meagan: Traumas, triggers, past experiences, the tension that is being harbored in our body. It's weird to think that, but really, we can harbor tension whether we relate to it as trauma or not, and it can really impact us. Aisha: It can really impact us. After my second birth, I had gone to pelvic floor therapy. I had been to that for a couple of months, then stopped 6 months prior to getting pregnant officially with my last baby. When I got pregnant, I went back to see my pelvic floor therapist. I'm like, “Listen. I'm pregnant. This is what we are planning. Right now, I just want to make sure that my muscles down there are okay. I want to do the exercises. I don't want to do too much, but just prep my body slowly and surely.” We did exercises. That was the first 20 weeks. The second 20 weeks, I'm like, “Okay. Now is the time to ask the questions.” I would see her every 6 weeks, and within those 6 weeks, every question that would come in my head, I would write in down in my notes and go and ask her the questions so she could answer. I asked her to review my op reports so I could have another opinion. I was asking her a lot of questions about VBAC after two Cesareans. I got that my doctor wasn't VBAC-friendly, but I think she's pro-women's choice. She goes with what you want, and she supports you wholeheartedly in your decisions. I remember asking her questions about VBACs after two C-sections. She kept telling me, “Aisha, I think you need to realize that new studies have shown that there is not much risk after one or two Cesareans. It's almost the same. The percentage doesn't go up. There's not much difference. If you've had a C-section, you have the same chances as if you've had a second C-section. That's what the studies are showing.”I asked her about my dehiscence, and she's like, “A lot of women who didn't have a C-section can have a dehiscence, but with some women, we don't see it because they're not getting opened up.” She's like, “It happens more than you think. It doesn't mean that it's because of your scar that you had the dehiscence. It could have been that's just how your body reacted.” After all of those affirmations, that reassured me a little bit. I was not risking my baby. At the same time, you read stories, and you just don't want to make foolish decisions even though in your heart, you know what you want. When you listen to the outside world, it can influence a little bit of how you are thinking, and you are trying to make a wise decision. That was me in that second part of my pregnancy. However, the one thing she told me was, “The one thing that can make or break your VBAC, though, is getting a doula.” Every time she would see me, she was like, “Did you get your doula? Did you get your doula? Did you get your doula?” So I went. I got a doula who also had a VBAC. It was very important to have someone who had the experience of having a VBAC. I feel like when your team knows how badly you want it and what it means to you, I feel like it changes a lot for your game. I remember having my little prebirth classes with her, and she kept telling me, “You need to build a team who believes in your goal more than you believe in your goal because at some point during the birth, you're going to doubt yourself, and you need people who are going to reinforce you with confidence and positivity.” Meagan: Positivity, yes. Aisha: Yes, and that you can do it and that your body was meant for this. Of course, within that too, we also prepped for the occasion of a possible C-section, how to have a gentle C-section, and things I wanted to have. For me, it was very important for me to see my baby's being born. That's something I never experienced with both of my daughters. I heard them cry, but it was this wall in front of me. I never saw them come out of me. We also prepped for that, but yeah. We did a lot of prepping. She suggested that I go see an osteopath. With my second daughter, and my first VBAC, I had seen a chiropractor, but she told me that an osteopath might help loosen up some muscles. I went to see that person. It felt good, then I did acupuncture at the same time which I think was maybe just to release and relax and let go. I think there were a lot of little things that I did in order to just not hold on to all of the stress– writing letters and closing up chapters. I feel like it allowed me to just let go of the traumas that I had. Fast forward to my due date for my second baby. I lose a good part of my mucus plug. I sent it to my doula. She was like, “Okay, I think your body is starting to work.” Now, I can say I was starting to have contractions, but my way that I think I handled this birth was denial. The whole time that I was having those contractions, I kept saying, “They are painful Braxton Hicks. They are painful Braxton Hicks, and that's what we are going to do.” I kept walking a lot and every day, I was taking an hour walk. During those hour walks, that's when I was listening to the podcast and listening to stories and literally looking for VBAC after two Cesarean stories and hearing what women went through and their tips and tricks. That happened at my 40-week due date. Then the contractions kept going. During the daytime, they would spread out a little bit. At night time, they would be every 10-15 minutes. They would wake me up from sleeping, so I knew deep down that something was going on, but I was not trying to put my heart into it. I'm like, “They are just Braxton Hicks.” That kept on going for two days. At 40 weeks and 3 days, I had my doctor's appointment. I remember waking up that morning and being like, “Oh, those Braxton Hicks are really pushing.” I remember my husband was like, “Do you think we should go and drop of the girls at their godmother's?” I'm like, “You know what? No. I don't think this is it.”I had my appointment that afternoon. I have a friend of mine who lives next to my doctor's office. She had a 6-month-old baby at that time. I'm like, “Let's drop the girls off at my friend's, then afterward, I can snuggle up the baby because I heard oxytocin might help everything get going.” I went to see my doctor. My doctor asked if I wanted to get checked. That's one thing too, I went through the whole pregnancy not wanting to get checked. I knew that dilation means nothing. Meagan: Yes. Aisha: There is also how effaced you are and the baby's station. Those are also other things that you must know. You can be at a 10 and be stationed at a -2. It doesn't mean your baby is still coming. There are a lot of little details that I discovered. Meagan: We don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. We focus so highly on that big 10 number when there is so much more. It's funny because with my clients, they'll be like, “Oh, I got checked, and I was only this centimeter.” I'm like, “I don't even care about the centimeter. What were you effaced?” They're like, “I don't know. They didn't say anything.” Next time you get checked, ask because that number is a cooler number. Let's get effaced. Let's do that. Even then, we know that can change. We can go from thick, hard, and posterior to completely open and thin. It all varies, and it varies quickly, but there are so many other things to focus on than just that big 10 number. Aisha: Exactly. That's why I never asked to get checked the whole time. I'm like, “I'm going to go like that without checking. That will be bad.” When I got there, my doctor knew. She was like, “You're not getting checked, right?” At every appointment, she would ask, and I'm like, “No, I'm not getting checked today.” She asked, “Are you having contractions?” I'm like, “I lost my mucus plug last night. I'm having painful Braxton Hicks.” She's like, “How painful?” I'm like, “Well, people contract and call it Braxton Hicks.” She's like, “Keep doing what you're doing, however, when you go to the hospital if ever you don't give birth by 41 weeks, we have to send you to do a non-stress test to the baby, and the hospital will read your report, and they're going to force you to have a C-section. Be ready.” She was prepping me. She was like, “I'm going to write in your file that it's VBAC after two Cesareans. We've talked about it. You're going to do a trial of labor. I'm letting it go.” She was okay with letting me to go at least 41+5 and 42 weeks. Meagan: Or what evidence shows, okay. Aisha: She wasn't giving me any stress. She told me that the one thing that was giving me confidence was the fact that my body went into labor twice, and my body knows what to do. I left that appointment. I went to my friend's house. I snuggled up with the baby. Every time I would take the baby, my contractions, the painful Braxton Hicks, would be every 5 minutes. They would come more often than not. The moment we left her house, I'm like, “Okay, I don't have the baby no more, but the painful Braxton Hicks keep going.” In the car ride, it was a 20-minute car ride to my house. I got to my house. I didn't say nothing to my husband. I took my daughters. I went to give them a bath. I was showering with them actually. It was a shower. I was showering with them. I was on my knees, and at some point, I had to stop and be like, “Okay. Those Braxton Hicks are quite painful.” I gave the girls a shower. I dressed them up. They went to bed. I came downstairs to my husband and was like, “You know what? Yeah. The Braxton Hicks are becoming more and more painful.” He was like, “Okay. Do you want me to pack up the car?” I'm like, “No, they are still Braxton Hicks. We are not there yet.” Then what really made me believe that I was in labor was whenever I am in labor are my bowel movements. I think my body releases and cleans out.Meagan: Common. That's very common. Aisha: I went to the bathroom twice in the span of 30 minutes. I looked at him, and I was like, “I think we're in labor.” That's the moment I used contractions for the first time. The contractions were there. I just went to the bathroom twice. Okay. Eat and drink because those are two things I never did with my previous labors. One thing my doula told me during the prep was, “You need to hydrate your body because the muscle that is dehydrated is a muscle that is going to contract even more. Maybe that's why you were contracting and your contractions with your second labor were back to back with no breaks.” I'm like, “Yeah, I wasn't drinking water. I was so dehydrated. My lips were all cracked. I was not drinking an ounce of water.” When my husband heard, “Okay, labor is starting,” we started drinking. I ate dinner. It was around 9:00 PM. We bought those maple waters because we heard maple water is filled with electrolytes. I started drinking that. Then we went upstairs. I'm like, “I'm going to get some rest and try to sleep a little bit since it's nighttime.” I went to bed. It wasn't comfortable. I stayed for 15 minutes, then I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to go in the shower.” My husband ran a shower. It wasn't helping. We ran a bath. I went in the bath. I stayed there for maybe 30 minutes. It was not comfortable, then I got up. I went to pee, and then I had my bloody show. Everything was out. I sent a photo to my midwife and my doula. She was like, “Okay. Get ready. I think your body is really doing a lot right now.” In my head, I'm like, “Since my body is doing its work right now, let me help it. I'm going to sit on the toilet.” I heard it's a dilation station, so I'm like, “I'm going to sit there, then hopefully, if I'm in pain, let me make it effective.” I go. I sit there. Believe me or not, that was the best position for me. Meagan: I loved it too. I loved it too. Aisha: I loved it. I was at peace. I had the light turned off, the rain sound going, and I was literally sleeping. When I say sleeping, I was snoring. I was waking up slightly just for contractions, then I was going back to bed. I never timed any of my contractions. We were not going to focus on timing. We were going to go with how we feel, and the sounds and stuff like that. Yeah. I stayed there, I think, for 2.5 hours or 3 hours on the toilet. Meagan: Wow.Aisha: It felt so good. I had a pillow. I slept there. At some point, you can hear in my sound that it was a bit more there. My doula was hearing me. She told my husband, “You know what? I think this is time. You guys need to pack up the kids and go to the hospital.” We are about 35-40 minutes away from the hospital, so we had quite a drive. My husband packed up the car, and around 2:00 AM, we left to the hospital. I remember prior to labor, I told myself, “I'm going to give myself a coping mechanism. As long as I'm home, I'm just going to do nothing and try to take it in.” Once I'm in the car, I bought those combs. I was going to have the combs in my hand for the car ride, then once contractions are really unbearable, I'm going to grab the second comb. In the car ride, I had that one comb. I took it.  We went to the hospital, but the contractions were so great. I had time to do curbside walking around the hospital when we got there. My girls' godmother came and met us at the hospital so we could transfer the girls. While they were doing that transfer, I was doing curbside walking. I was taking photos. I was like, “I need to take photos of my girls.” I was in such a happy mood. The contractions were spread out which was a first for me because with all of my other labors, the moment I got to the hospital, it was an emergency and I could not control myself. We got there. We got to the hospital. I was able to give them my name and fill out my papers. I was really clear-minded. I went into triage and I was a bit scared because with my other labors, when I got checked, I was at 1 centimeter or 2 centimeters. I was going to see what I am, but you know what? We can handle it because the contractions were still spread apart. If I was a 2, I would still be good. I lay down. I got checked, and they told me I was at 5 centimeters. I thought, “Oh my god.” I asked, “What is the station and how effaced am I?” Then they were like, “You are 80% effaced, and you're at the station -2.” I'm like, “Okay. This is it. We're doing it.” They were like, “We are admitting you. You're not going to go home.” I was so excited. However, that's when the battle started. They took my file and came back. Meagan: Darn it. Aisha: They said, “We see you had two Cesareans already. Usually, you need to have a C-section after two C-sections.” I'm like, “I discussed with my doctor, and she was okay with me doing a trial of labor. They were like, “Well, no. This is not usually how things go. We usually don't do that. There's a lot of risk for your baby.” I'm like, “Yeah. I know the risk and I'm okay with it. It's something my doctor and I discussed. We are very at peace with it.” Then they sent me the doctor on call. The doctor came, and she was like, “I need to explain to you the dangers of what you are about to do. Your baby might die when you have a second C-section.” Then they brought up the dehiscence. “After a trial of labor, you had a dehiscence. This is not good for your body to have a dehiscence. You are more prone to uterine rupture.” All of those notes were observed by my doctor, and she was completely fine with it. Literally, the doctor looked at me, and she was like, “I can see nothing I'm going to say will change your mind. You're quite informed.” I'm like, “Yeah.” She was like, “I'm going to have you sign these release papers so you can release the hospital of anything.” At that moment, you feel like you're doing something not great because you're like, “They're making me sign this paper.”Meagan: Yeah, you feel like you're pushing against everyone in the professional world who have done multiple years of school and what they are suggesting. It feels off. Aisha: It feels off, but you what? That's why I was talking about releasing and really listening to me. That made me feel so much more at peace because I'm like, “I have to listen to that voice inside. Aisha, you can do this. You have prepped for this literally for four years in the making since your first C-section. You're educated. You know the risks. This paper is not going to make the risks change. You were okay with it before they presented that paper to you. You can still be okay with it after.”They gave me the paper. I signed everything, and then they asked me, “Well, we need to keep you monitored, however. We need to keep you monitored, and we need to have the easy access port installed in case.”Meagan: The hep lock, mhmm.Aisha: I told them that I didn't want it because it wasn't in my birth plan. I was like, “I don't want that.” I also had a super cute pink, floral hospital gown. I was like, “I'm going to wear that. I don't want to wear their hospital gown.” I think it was just mentally to feel like you are the birther, and you are the principal actor in the event. I didn't want to feel like a patient.They came. They were like, “You need to change.” I'm like, “I don't want to change. I want to keep my gown.” I had to sign a release paper that it was okay if they cut off my gown. I said, “Listen, the gown is made for that. There are buttons all around the back, but if you have to cut it off, cut it off, but I'm keeping this on.” At the end, I felt like I had to be somewhat political a little bit and give them a little so they could stop bugging me because they were breaking my bubble with the constant questions and the constant arguing.Within all of that, I was still having contractions. I'm like, “You know what? I'm going to let them monitor the baby, and I'm going to let them do the easy port so they can stop casting their opinions on my VBAC.” I know my doula was a bit scared especially for the monitoring because they were like, “The second the heart rate drops, they're going to use it as a way to send you to the operating room.” I know the second they put the monitor on, the baby's heart rate went down during the contractions, and it went right back up after. One of the nurses was like, “See? Your baby's heart rate is already going down. This is why we need to keep it.” I had the doula on the other line. She was coming to the hospital. I asked, “The baby's heart is going down.” She was like, “Aisha, it's normal that your baby's heart rate is going down during a contraction. He's literally getting squeezed. It's just normal practice. If it comes back up, it's completely fine.” Every time, they would pass those comments. The baby's heart rate dropped a couple of times, probably 7-8 times over the whole labor process, but every time, they would make a comment, “Oh, see? It dropped again. Oh, see? It dropped again.” But it kept picking back up the whole time.Anyway, I got admitted to my room. They tried to do the easy access port. I have small veins, so it literally took the anesthesiologist to do it. The whole nursing team failed to do it. I kept telling them to do it in one spot that people usually have better luck. They did it everywhere else, and in the end, it was that part that functioned.By the time they did the easy port access, it was around 7:00 AM. I got to the hospital around 4:00. It was around 7:00 AM. I asked to be checked again because, at that point, I was doing dances. The contractions were so intense, I was not happy. I was not laughing no more. I was still having breaks between them, but it was really taking everything out of me. At that point, the whole time before that, I was really enjoying the contractions. They were coming. I was like, “Oh, this is nice. I'm getting to meet my baby.” I loved the feeling to be honest. People find me weird when I say that I love contractions, but at that point, it was not fun anymore. I was going against the wall and doing those squat dances and moving my body left to right. I requested doing a check. They checked me. They were like, “Oh, you're at 9.5 and 100%.” However, baby was still stationed at -2. I'm like, “Oh no, baby is pretty high up.” My doula and I started to do some positions to get baby down. We did those for 30 minutes, but like I said, the contractions were really, really, really pushing it. I requested to get checked again. I know my doula was like, “Nothing probably happened.” She was right. Nothing happened. It was still the same, 9.5 and effaced at 100%, and still stationed to -2. At that point, I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to request the epidural.” I was seeing stars. Every time I would go through a contraction, I would see stars. At that point, I was literally, I think, mentally checked out. I was fighting against the contractions because every time a contraction would start, I would tell myself, “Okay, now you need to survive this next one.” It was no longer about enjoying it. Meagan: Surviving it, yeah. Aisha: It wasn't, “You know what, Aisha? It's four breaths. Take four deep breaths and it's done.” It was more of a survival mindset. I was like, “I'm going to take the epidural and be calm and be good.” They came. They gave it to me. They gave me a very tidbit because I was still walking. I could still feel. Yeah. I was still walking with the epidural. I could still feel everything. It just took off the edge. I think the contractions and the pain was in the front of my belly, and the back pain was gone, but I could still feel the pressure. While the anesthesiologist was giving me the epidural, my body was starting to push. I would have that feeling and everything. I think he gave me a tiny bit. Anyway, the second epidural was done, it was already shift change, so the night nurses were gone. The new nurses were in, and I think when I say the team makes a difference, they were angels sent. They were so kind. My doula went to see who was the doctor on call for the daytime, and she came to see me. She was like, “If you didn't have your own personal OB/GYN, this is the one who you would have wanted to have. This one here, that doctor here.” Then she came. She was super happy.She was like, “Okay, I see you're trying for a VBAC. The whole floor, when I heard about your case, they were saying that you had a uterine rupture. I'm like, ‘That's not right. Her doctor wouldn't have let her do a trial of labor after a rupture.' I went through your file, and I saw that you only had a dehiscence. It's very common.” She literally repeated the same thing that my doctor said. She was like, “A lot of women who didn't even have a C-section end up having a lot of dehiscence. It's just that we never know because they are never opened for a C-section to mark it down.” She was like, “It's completely common. We're going to do this.” She was like, “You've been at 9.5 for 2-3 hours, and your baby's station hasn't descended. Let's see what's going on.” She brought an ultrasound machine, and she performed the ultrasound on me. She literally saw that it was the baby's head's position. His head was slightly crooked to the left. Meagan: Asynclitic, mhmm. Aisha: Exactly. That's when I'm telling you that I love these people. I'm still having butterflies thinking about them. They came with the Miles Circuit. They came with the sheet with the images, and they're like, “We're going to do those.” I'm like, “The Miles Circuit!” They're like, “Yes.” I'm like, “Oh my god. You guys are my people.” We started doing the Miles Circuit. I did every movement for 30 minutes. I held it for 30 minutes. I did the cowgirl, I think they call it. Meagan: The flying cowgirl. Aisha: Exactly. Then after that, they came back. My doctor thought the baby's position had changed, but my water hadn't broken yet. She was like, “I'm going to break your water. The worst case scenario is that your baby's heart doesn't handle it, but I think that's going to make us go to the next level.” She broke my water. Literally, within the time she broke it and went to check, I was ready to go. That was literally all it took. She was like, “Okay, we're going to start pushing.” I know in my birth plan, I said that I was not going to push on my back lying down. I went on my four knees. I went first in my knees. I was holding onto the bed, and I was pushing that way. But I was so tired. I hadn't eaten in a while. I was still drinking, so drinking was good, but I hadn't eaten. My doula gave me candy. That helped me, but I remember in that exact moment, in my thoughts, “Aisha, your baby did it. This is your time now to help your baby. This is it. You've waited four years for this moment. This is it. This is all you've wanted. You need to find strength somewhere and make it happen.” I looked at them. I'm like, “I'm going to lie down.” I laid down, and my doula gave me this blanket. They attached this. Meagan: Mhmm, some tug-of-war. You did some tug-of-war, mhmm. Aisha: I was pulling on it when I was pushing, and my mom and a nurse were pushing my legs up. Yeah, then I pushed. I pushed. I pushed, and at some point, my body was pushing automatically whenever the contraction would come. It would literally do that. I would bear down by myself. I know the doctor kept looking at me. She was like, “Wow. This is awesome.” Yeah. I think I pushed for 45 minutes, and then he was born. My husband is actually the one who caught the baby. Meagan: Oh, yay. Aisha: That's what we wanted. We caught him. We did not know the gender, so it was really fun to see that it was a boy after two daughters. Once he was born, they put him on my chest. Everybody was crying. I know the nurses were crying. The doctor was crying. I've never had a hug from a doctor, and she literally came to my bedside and hugged me. She was like, “This is the moment. We don't see this often, so thank you for letting us experience this.”I know for a lot of the nurses, it was almost the shift change. It was almost 3:00 PM when he was born. One of the nurses looked at me. She was like, “My shift is ending in about 30 minutes. I need to see this. I need to witness this happening.” Then, yeah. He was born, and I think I had a first-degree tear, but it was on the outer labia. It was because when he was born–Meagan: Superficial. Aisha: Yeah, he had his hand on his face like a Superman. Meagan: Oh my goodness, so you had a nuchal hand, too? Oh my gosh.Aisha: Yeah, in the photos of it, it's so precious. My doula took photos, and you can literally see his hand coming out. Yeah. It was great because that evening, that night, the doctor came back on her shift. She heard that I gave birth. She came to apologize, literally. She was like, “I heard that you gave birth vaginally. Congratulations. I'm so sorry for not supporting you in that sense. There is a risk, and not every woman ends up having great stories like yours.”Meagan: Oh gosh. Aisha: “But we are happy for you.” I was just happy that I proved them wrong and that I made history in that hospital having a VBAC after two Cesareans. It happens. It's possible. I'm just happy that I listened to that voice inside, and that all of the noise around me did not affect my initial desires. Meagan: Yeah, and overall, your final decision, right? We've talked about this. I call it static. There's a lot of static that, I feel like, looms over VBAC moms. At least it did for me, and I do see it sometimes with my clients. It's their friends, their family, their providers, or whoever it may be, they are looming with this unnecessary static. Aisha: Yes. Meagan: A lot of it is, “Well, there's risk and what if's.” Oh, you name it. So many of these things, and really, I took a whole bunch of notes of little nuggets of your story. I can relate in a lot of ways with your story. It's similar to mine with how things unfolded. From the very beginning, you started off right. You started off right. You found the provider. You found the team. You got the support. You got the education. You dove in, and like you said, this was four years in the making. It took you four years to learn and grow and have this experience that you wanted. Sometimes, it takes one time to try. I say “try” with quotes, but to go and have a trial of labor, and it maybe not work out like mine and your situation. And then, okay, we learned from those two situations. Now how can we learn and grow from those situations and change and develop this next situation? It's so weird. My mind right now is really heavy on my daughter's reflections. They do reflections at school. It's a big art thing. Her topic is overcoming imperfections. Sometimes, in the birth world and especially as women, as you were saying earlier in your story, we have this thing that if we don't do it this way or if it doesn't happen this way, maybe our motherhood is stripped away, or we failed, or our baby failed. We can go as far as our baby failed us or whatever it may be. Overall, no situation is perfect. There are just always imperfections, and what do we do with the situation to grow and transform?I mean, really. I went over some of it, and then just learning more about hydration and how important food is and fueling our bodies. Aisha: Yes, yes. It's a marathon. You cannot run a marathon without an ounce of water or without food. You see it when you see people doing half marathons. There are people on the sidelines giving them water. Meagan: They're fueling. Aisha: Right. They're fueling. It is important and necessary. Knowing that the providers, as much as yes, we do have faith in them, they are there to help us, and they are there. I don't want to say this in a bad way, but they are working with us and for us. Do you know what I mean? They don't have the final say. We have the final say. That doctor who was there, when I told you about the dream team, she never ever does hospital rounds. She usually just does prenatals. Even the nurses said, “We usually see her once or twice a year. She never comes.” That ended up being the one time a year that she came. She looked at me and said that she is a pro-choice woman. She was like, “When a woman makes a choice, even if they fail, she will be happier, and she will be able to cope with the results way better than if someone strips her of that choice and obliges her to do something she did not consent to do. The outcome of that will be way harder to overcome than if she is the one who made the decision regardless of the result. That is way better.” Meagan: It's so true. Aisha: I wholeheartedly believe that. I know I had to really see in myself if that doesn't work. I know sometimes, we go into labor very naively. I feel like every first-time mom and even second-time sometimes, that can happen especially if let's say you were going for a vaginal birth, then you have a C-section, then you're trying for another vaginal birth, it's still in some sense the first time that you are going to experience this sort of experience. You're still going into it naively and blindly. Like I said, I never knew a C-section could be an option. The second time, I'm like, “It cannot happen to me twice.” After it happened to me twice, I planned for it. I planned in the circumstance that there would be a C-section, what do I want to happen? I knew I had my guidelines, and at least it wouldn't be a shocker and a hard pill to swallow. I would have been okay because I had my trial of labor.At the end of the day, your baby does decide how they want to be born. I feel like one thing I would advise all mamas and even fathers or partners, we need to include them to that. I feel like talking to your baby makes a whole lot of a difference. I got that advice from my osteopath where he told me a story about his wife about to be wheeled into a C-section. He came. He spoke to their daughter who was in the womb. He was like, “This is your moment. You decide. If you want to go to a C-section, do it. If not, this is the moment to change things.” His wife ended up having a vaginal birth right at the moment that they were going to. I pulled my husband up at some point I remember when I was starting to push. He came and saw the baby, then he was like, “This is your moment. You decide how you want to be born. You choose, and your mama is going to help you do this.” I feel like having that communication, our babies sense everything, so being connected to that too is so important. It's so important. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Circling back really quickly, if we do all of the things, if we take the VBAC education course, listen to the stories, learn more, read more, learn the stats, hire the team, and all of the things, we do our fear clearing processing about past experiences and all of that, and then we go in and be fearmongered like they were trying with you, and fearmongering by definition is that “it causes fear by exaggerated rumors of impending dangers”. There were big things that were said, but if you hadn't done the research and the education, you easily may have been fearmongered. Sometimes, it's even easy to be fearmongered even with the education. I will say that straight up. When you are being told that your baby could die, that word is very, very triggering. But you were able to have the education and be like, “No. I understand what you are saying. I respect what you are saying. I am going to continue moving forward this way.” But if we would be fearmongered and not have the education and then later learn the education, overall, our experience and view and our feelings postpartum would be a little bit rougher because we are learning these things that we could have learned before. That's why education is one of the biggest tips that we can give because you need to be educated along the way because it is easy for someone to come in. Look at you, Aisha, “No, no, no, no.” How many times did you have to say, “I understand, but no, no, no, no.” It sucks that that's the reality, and trust me, it ticks me off so much. Aisha: It is. Meagan: I wish it would change, but if we aren't educated and armed with that team, with that power, with our experience, then we are more likely going to fold in those situations. Aisha: It is completely true. At some point, even one of the nurses told me when they were trying to do the easy port that I needed to stop moving because this was going to end up with a C-section, and they really need to do the easy port. I had to tell her to never repeat the word “C-section” in front of my face. It sucks that for women or people experiencing multiple Cesareans or even one Cesarean when they are trying to do a vaginal birth that they need to constantly fight for it. Meagan: Yes.Aisha: But you do need to stand your ground and really focus on what you want. The fears will come, but that's a moment where you need to rely on the education that you have and all of the process. You spent 9 months preparing yourself, and all of those months must count for something. You're not going to be that one person. That's what I was telling myself. In the case that yes, the unfortunate happens, I was at the best place at the best time, and I had the best team. That was my thing. I trusted in my team that everything would be fine. But no, definitely. Yeah. You need to believe in yourself and in your project. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, this episode is just jampacked with all of the nuggets of information, guidance, suggestions, and empowering feelings. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for being here with us today and sharing with us your beautiful story.Aisha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. It's a dream. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Well, congratulations again.Aisha: Thank you so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Sheryl's first baby was five days late. Her second baby was five days early. From the first contraction to a surprise car birth, Sheryl's third baby was under an hour! Not only were the methods of delivery very different with each baby, but Sheryl's life circumstances were too.Julie and Sheryl chat about preparing yourself not only for the long, marathon labors, but also for the possibility of the fast and furious ones! How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: All right. Good morning, Women of Strength. This is Julie Francom, and I am so excited to be here with you today to share with you a very exciting story. One of my favorite types of birth stories, people might think I'm crazy, but– oh, do you know what? I'm not going to tell you what the story is, but if you have been listening for a minute, you might know when I say what my favorite type of story is, but I'm going to leave it to be a surprise. We are going to go ahead and read a Review of the Week really quickly, then I'll introduce my guest of the day. Okay, let's see. This review is from Apple Podcasts. It's from ccm57, and she says, “I am so thankful I came across this podcast and know it was an invaluable tool when educating myself regarding VBACs and the birthing process in general. My first son was born via Cesarean due to his stubbornness and refusing to turn from his breech presentation. Leading up to his C-section, I was devastated that I wouldn't be able to experience the natural birthing process I had always wanted. “I am in the medical world. I knew about VBACs, and it was never even a thought I wouldn't try for one in my next pregnancy. I found The VBAC Link halfway through my second pregnancy, and it was so addicting. I listened to every episode, sometimes multiple times a day, until my delivery. Every woman's story was amazing and truly helpful to me personally. “Thank you, Meagan, for being as passionate about VBACs and educating women all over the world. I can excitedly say that God was so gracious, and I had my beautiful VBAC this past August. Thank you to every woman who have shared your story on the podcast and for all of the women who are listening and expecting a sweet baby, I am cheering you on.” I am so excited to hear stories and reviews like that. It's really incredible what can happen when you get a group of women together to share stories and to help uplift and inspire each other. I'm grateful to this reviewer today and to all of you listening, to everyone who has shared their story on the podcast, and to everybody who helps spread the word about VBAC and helps increase access to people all over the world, really. All right. Well, guess what? It is very cold today. It's been a very nice 70s and 80 degrees here in Utah for the last little while, but it is now mid-October at the time that we are recording this, and it is raining and freezing. There is supposed to be snow dumping up in the mountains today, and I am just wrapped up tight in my big, poofy blanket and very, very excited to talk to our guest today. Her name is Sheryl, and she is going to share her Cesarean and VBAC stories with us. I am really excited. I am really excited for this story, you guys. I'm not going to tell you what we are going to talk about at the end because I don't want to ruin the surprise. It's going to be a great episode, and I am just going to go ahead and give it over to Sheryl and let her pick it up. Oh, first, hold on. Let me read her bio. I am still getting into the swing of things. Sheryl: Sure. Julie: I need to remember that. Let's see.Oh, yes. Sheryl is a mom of three. She has been married for 10 years to her husband. They live in Sugar Creek, Ohio. I love the Midwest except in the winter. It's getting ready to be not so fun out there. It's beautiful in the spring and summertime. Anyway, okay. She recently returned from living in the Dominican Republic for the last two and a half years which is really cool. I feel like everybody needs to have an experience living abroad. Sheryl: For sure. Julie: You just learn so much when you are in a foreign country experiencing different things. I feel like it's very valuable. Anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent. But now, for real, we are going to give it over to Sheryl. Go ahead, Sheryl. Sheryl: Okay, well thanks so much for having me on. This is super fun.Julie: Of course. Sheryl: Yeah, I'm not sure where you want me to start, but I have had two VBACs and very different experiences with both. My first was a C-section. I'll start with his story a little bit. He's 6-years-old, so six years ago, I knew I wanted to have a natural birth. I took a natural childbirth class. I felt like I had prepared, but I don't think I had mentally prepared for birth very well. I think if I could do it again, I would definitely have hired a doula just to help with the mental aspect. I was five days late. I told my husband, “I'm not going to work tomorrow.” It was Sunday night. I was like, “There is no way I'm going to work tomorrow. I will go into labor tonight because I can't go to work tomorrow pregnant.” He was like, “Okay.” We went on a truck drive on a bumpy road. We played mini-golf. We were like, “Okay.” We started watching a movie. I was like, “I think I'm cramping a little bit. Okay, this is great.” We finally went to bed, and yep. Sure enough, a few hours later, I woke up with contractions, and I was so excited. I was very taken back by how painful they were. Now, looking back, it was like, okay. Those contractions weren't even that bad. It was going to get so much worse. I was progressing great. I think I went to the hospital when they were 3.5-4 minutes apart. I think I got there. I think I was dilated to a 4 or 5, so they were like, “Yeah, you're progressing really well. This is great.” I figured it was 7:00 in the morning. We would have a baby by noon. At 11:00, I said that I wanted to get in the birth tub or just labor, but I wanted to get out to have the baby. I was in the tub. Now, looking back, I think I was in transition. I ended up vomiting a little bit and just being so nauseous and in so much pain. The water did help, then they came and checked me and were like, “You are an 8.” They were like, “You should get out if you don't want to have your baby in the water.” I was so excited. They came and got things ready, then I really got fearful at that point. I was just very scared about what was going to happen and all of the things. They came and checked me, and they were like, “Oh, no. You're not dilated that much. You're maybe a 7.” I just tried to keep laboring on. We ended up doing some different pain management. I was just not progressing anymore. At this point, I think it was 14-15 hours, so I was just exhausted. I was very thankful. One of the midwives at the practice that I was at was off that day. She had actually been on vacation. They let her know, “Hey, just so you know, Sheryl is at the hospital. She is having a really hard time. We can't figure out why she's not progressing further.” She was like, “I'm going in.” She came in. She was so kind, and she worked for hours trying different positions and everything possible. Finally, she was like, “Okay.” I think it was 8:00 at night. She said, “You are exhausted. Let's do an epidural,” which I didn't want because I was like, “I don't want needles. I hate needles.” I got an epidural. I got a little bit of a nap. It worked for about an hour, then it stopped working. The pain came back, but then obviously, there's nothing you can do except lay there. I was at a 9, and it wouldn't go any further. She kept trying different things even with the epidural. Finally, she was like, “Okay, he's actually gone back up. He was down, and now he's back up.” She said she was going to go talk to the doctor and see what he thinks we should do. They came back. It was 10:30 at night. They were like, “I think it's time for a C-section. We don't know why he's going back up, but typically, it's a sign that things are not going well, so we're going to do a C-section.” At that point, you're just so tired that you're like, “Okay, yeah. Whatever we have to do to get him out.” They ended up doing a C-section. I was so tired that I was falling asleep while they were doing the spinal tap. I was just exhausted. The C-section went very well. My postpartum was hard. I think just as a first-time mom with a C-section and all of those, and then feeling like a failure. That was a really challenging time, but right away, the doctor told me that they were one in the area that was known for VBACs. They had successful VBACs. He told me and my husband right away, “You will be able to have a VBAC. There is no doubt in my mind that you will be able to have a VBAC for your next.” Julie: Oh, I love that. I love that they said that to you right from the get-go.Sheryl: Yeah. It was so great, so it was like, “Okay. We know that the next one will be a VBAC.” We actually had a miscarriage between baby number one and baby number two. That was really challenging. It was a surprise. At that point, we had committed to move to Haiti. We weren't planning on getting pregnant, but we got pregnant, then 10 weeks later, we miscarried. Julie: Wow. Sheryl: It was definitely a difficult time, and it was the year 2020. I don't think I need to say anymore than that. It was February 2020 when I miscarried. Julie: Oh, Sheryl. COVID ruined everything. It really did. Sheryl: It was definitely a challenging year. We were ready to go on a mission. That got delayed until we ended up moving to Haiti in March 2021. We were there for almost 6 months, and then their president was assassinated, so the country became really turmoiled and it was becoming unsafe for Americans to be living there. Our mission board thought it would be best to pull us home. At that time, we had planned, okay. We moved in March. If we start trying for baby number two in June, we would have been in Haiti for a year. We'll start trying. We had kind of started trying, then we got pulled out in July, so it was like, man. Do we keep trying? Do we not? We were like, like, “You know what? We'll keep trying. We'll see what happens.” Yep, sure enough, in August, we got pregnant again with our second baby, our little girl named Felicity. Right away, I had that confidence that, “Okay. I'm going to have a VBAC.” I did a really good job, I felt, of preparing mentally. I read so many books, so many podcasts. I decided right away, “Okay. I'm going to have a doula.” I was just really prepared. But during this time, we were planning on going back to Haiti. It's so many details, but long story short, we weren't able to go back to Haiti because it ended up getting worse, not better. So our mission board was like, “Hey, let's find someplace else for you to serve in the meantime before you have your baby back in Ohio.” We connected with a mission in the Dominican Republic and ended up going to the DR. That was a great experience, but also, I waited to come back from the DR until I was 35 weeks pregnant. It was crazy to be in another country and know that you're going back. I definitely did not want to have a baby in the Dominican Republic. If listeners are familiar with the DR, they have the highest C-section rate. I looked at the number really quick. I was actually surprised it wasn't higher, but 58% of births are C-sections. Almost all of their natural births, they do episiotomies. That's just what they do.Julie: What?Sheryl: Yeah, it's nuts. So it's like, there's no way I'm going to have a baby in the Dominican Republic. Thank the Lord, I didn't have a baby int he Dominican Republic. I was very ready to do this. I had affirmations. I had prayers written out. I hired a doula and all of the things. I spent a lot of things praying for very specific things asking the Lord, “Okay, I don't want to go late. I don't want to have a long labor, and I want this certain midwife.” Her name was Leanne. I wanted her to deliver me. She's delivered two of my sisters' children, so she was a family friend. She's known us for 20 years. Those were my prayers that I kept praying. I asked family and friends to pray.I went in at 39 weeks. She was like, “Hey, you're dilated to a 3. You're 50% effaced. Do you want to do a membrane sweep?” I was like, “Yes, let's do it.” We did that. I went home. I felt fine. We did some food prep. I finally got my husband to pack his hospital bag that next day, then I guess I went to the doctor when I was 39 weeks and 1 day, but the next day, my husband was supposed to be working 2 hours from where we lived. He was like, “Should I go?” I was like, “Well, I think so. I don't think I'll feel anything tonight. Let's plan on going. I'll wake up when you wake up and make sure I'm not having any contractions.” He woke up at 5:00. I was like, “Yeah, I'll get up.” I went to the bathroom. “No, I'm fine. No contractions. Go on to work. You'll be just fine.” 6:30 rolls around. Whoa, that's a contraction. “Okay, I'm going to go back to sleep.” At 7:30, a contraction woke me up, and my little boy at the time would have been 3, almost 4. He woke up ready to have breakfst, and I was like, “Oh, that's a contraction.” I tracked my husband, and he wasn't even to the job site yet. I'm like, “Oh no.” Julie: Oh my gosh. Sheryl: Oh no. I made breakfast. I got in the shower. I was like, “Surely, they'll slow down.” At this point, they were 4-5 minutes apart. I was like, “They aren't slowing down. Okay.” My sister texted me. She was like, “Hey, how are you feeling this morning?” I was like, “I think I'm going into labor.” She FaceTimed me. I'm braiding my hair and trying to get ready. She's watching me, and she was like, “Have you let Javen know yet?” I was like, “No. I was trying to let him get some work done.” She was like, “Sheryl, are you timing them?” I was like, “Yeah.” She was like, “That's every 3.5-4 minutes apart. You should probably call him.” I was like, “Okay, yeah, you're right.” I called him, and he immediately knew. He was like, “Ah, she's in labor.” He hopped in the work truck and headed toward me, but there was no way that I could sit here and wait. We had three people lined up to take Riley for us. Unfortunately, those two people both did not pick up their phones, and one was sick. I called number three, and she was like, “Hey, I will come and get you and take you to the midwife office.” They were going to check me there before I went to the hospital just to make sure I was progressing. She had three kids in the car. She added one more of mine in. It was an interesting 30-minute drive trying to labor while there were kids in the car and a lot happening. I got to my midwife practice, and she was like, “Okay, yep. You're dilated to a 5. You need to get to the hospital.”Thankfully, my husband met us there. We headed to the hospital. We got to the hospital. I was a 6. My doula got there at 12:00, and things were just progressing really nicely. At 1:00, I think it was 1:00, my doula was like, “Hey, why don't you go to the bathroom to see if you need to pee or anything?” I did, an at that moment, my water broke. They checked me. They were like, “You're a 9. You're almost there. Two more contractions. Okay, you're ready to push.” So I pushed for an hour, and she was born at 2:15. It was really an amazing birth. It was everything I had prayed for. It was less than 12 hours which I had specifically prayed, “Please, Lord, no more than 12 hours.” It was told, “Oh, you'll probably push for 2 hours,” and I pushed for an hour. It just felt like God was very faithful, and He answered my prayers. The one thing I didn't pray about, and this time I did, was for no tearing. I did tear pretty bad, so that made postpartum pretty rough. After Felicity, we returned to the Dominican Republic and were there for 2.5 years. We'll fast forward to last year, and were like, “Okay, maybe it's time for us to head back to Ohio.” We really loved it in the DR. We had a great community and great friendships. The ministry we were serving with was wonderful, but we felt like, “Okay, this is what we are supposed to do.”We came home for Christmas. We hadn't been home for over a year, so it was really exciting to come back to Ohio and see family. While we were here, I just was like, “Man, I'm one day late,” and I'm never one day late. I had said, “Okay, I'd better get that taste just in case.” I took it, and sure enough, we are expecting another baby. It was very surprising, but also, it was just like, “Okay, we were planning on coming home, so now we are definitely coming home.” We moved back to Ohio in June, and we were due the end of August, August 27th. I think I should have mentioned that with Felicity, our second baby, I was 5 days early. I was 5 days late with the first one, and 5 days early with the second. I think just with this pregnancy, it was so different because we were just in a different phase of life. I didn't prepare as well. I felt like in the last few weeks, I was scrambling mentally. I was feeling anxious and not prepared. I actually listened to The VBAC Link one day. I was really struggling. I was like, “I need to hear some positive stories.”I was driving to the airport to do an airport run, so I just kept listening to episodes, and it was like, “Okay. Other people have done this. I can do this to,” so that was super helpful. I would say that overall, the practice was really great. It was one midwife and one OB/GYN, but I did not love this time around. They were not as supportive as I felt. They were like, “Hey, we are not going to let you go past 40 weeks no matter what. That's our policy. You can't go past 40 weeks.” I was just like, “Aw, well, I don't want to be induced. I don't want Pitocin. I don't want to be induced.” They just kept pressing that, especially the doctor. I just didn't feel super supported. We decided not to do a doula this time. The last few weeks were kind of rough. I didn't feel great. It was the summer. We transitioned. We had two kids. Our second one, Felicity, is two, so it's a lot different being pregnant with a 2-year-old and an almost 4-year-old. Yeah. I kept going to the doctor. At 38 weeks, they checked me. They were like, “Yeah, you're not dilated at all.” At 39 weeks, they checked me, and they were like, “Yeah, there's no way we could do a membrane sweep. You're not dilated at all.” So at my 39-week appointment, they were like, “Yeah, we think it's time to schedule that induction.” They did an ultrasound at 38 weeks, and they were like, “Yeah, you look perfect. Baby is healthy. Not too big.” All of those things. It was frustrating to me because I was like, “If everything is fine, why do I need to be induced?” We were contemplating fighting it, but then me and my husband were like, “Hey, is the stress of fighting the practice worth over going into an induction with a positive attitude?” We decided, “Hey, we're going to schedule the induction. We're going to do our best to do everything we can in the next week to make it happen on our own.” Lots of walking. We tried everything. My induction was scheduled for Thursday, the 30th, I believe, or the 29th. The 29th. I went in on Monday and had an appointment. I was like, “Hey, I just want to get checked one more time. Can I do a membrane sweep? That worked well last time.” I think my appointment was at 2:30 in the afternoon on Monday. They tried, and she was like, “Nope. You're not even dilated more than a 2, and he's way far up. Yeah. You're just going to have to be induced on Thursday.” I was just so devastated. I left so sad, and I was just like, “Okay. We're going to do this. I need to just be positive.” But then that night after we had the kids in bed, I had a little bit of a breakdown. I told my husband, “I'm just so sad. I really thought I could do this. My body is failing me.” You know, all of those things. He was like, “Hey, let's just pray about it.” That night, we specifically prayed that I wouldn't tear, Leanna would get to deliver, and that it would go really quickly. That was at 10:30 at night. We quickly did a lap around outside, just trying to calm me dow and then hopefully a walk would start something. Finally, we went to bed at 11:30. As I was climbing into bed, I felt a contraction. I was like, “Oh wow. That's been the most painful one I've ever had. Okay, I'm going to go to bed.” I had another one about 8 minutes later, but didn't think anything of it. I finally fell asleep, and I kept feeling them, but I was still sleeping. I didn't really worry about it. Again, in my mind, I have to be induced on Thursday. There's no way I'm going into labor. I woke up at 1:30 to an extremely painful contraction. All of a sudden, I felt a pop. I feel like I heard it too, but I felt a pop, and I was like, “That's my water.” I woke Javen up. I'm like, “Javen, my water just broke, and the contractions are very painful.” He quickly called his mom to come over and watch the kids. He called the doctor's office to let them know. I was yelling, “Hey, tell them that Leanne's supposed to deliver.” I got in the shower. I tried to start getting cleaned up, and I'm realizing that the contractions are every 3-3.5 minutes. But in my mind, my water just broke. I'm sure I had plenty of time. I was only dilated to a 2 yesterday. My mother-in-law got there. I got out of the shower and got dressed. Neither me or my husband were in a hurry, but I walked from the bathroom to the kitchen table. Contraction to the kitchen. I couldn't walk more than a few steps without having a contraction. I looked at my mother-in-law and I was like, “Man, I've never had my water break this early. These contractions hurt really badly.” She shook her head and was like, “Uh-huh. Yeah.” She looks at Javen, and she was like, “You need to get her to the hospital.” She's trying to get us to the car. I'm in so much pain. She was like, “You've got to get to the hospital.” The hospital is a 40-minute drive. We left for the hospital at 2:00. I actually rode on a birthing ball in the back of the car which now, I'm like, “Yeah, that probably didn't help slow the progress down,” but that was the only thing that was comfortable. I had my worship playlist going. I was in a lot of pain. I had a few friends who I had told, “Hey, I'm going to text you when I go into labor so you can be praying.” I texted a couple friends. I texted a sibling, “Just so you know, I'm going to the hospital. My water broke.” My one sister does some night work. She was actually still awake, so she started tracking me on my phone. We got halfway to the hospital, and I told Javen, “Javen, we're not going to make it. I need you to pull over. He's coming.” He was like, “No, just wait 20 minutes. You can wait 20 minutes.” I was like, “Nope. There's no way. You need to get the car pulled over right now. He's coming out.”I quickly got off the ball, and within 2 minutes of getting the car pulled over, Javen moving the driver's seat forward, and opening up the door, and calling 9-1-1, we had our baby boy. It was the most crazy experience. I say he came out in three pushes, but really, I didn't push at all. To experience my body just taking over is just an insane feeling. Julie: Oh my gosh. Yep. Sheryl: Yeah. The ambulance was headed our way but they were pretty far away because we were in the middle of nowhere. We were actually pulled over into an Amish farm. We live in the heart of Amish country in the middle of Ohio. I'm praying, “Please don't come outside and watch me give birth.” Luckily, no. We found out who the owner was and through back and forth, they were like, “No, we didn't wake up. We didn't hear anything.” So praise the Lord for that.I actually delivered my placenta before the ambulance got there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Sheryl: Baby Casey was healthy and just immediately had a head full of hair. He was the most beautiful baby boy. I held him on my chest. Javen caught him and handed him to me. Just to hold him, it was such a whirlwind. It was crazy. I got into the ambulance and realized that yes, not only does he have a head full of hair, but he has a head full of red hair. He has very, very red hair. He was just a surprise from every point. We got to the hospital. The midwife came to check on me. She was like, “How did this happen? I just saw you not even 12 hours ago, and you were not ready to have a baby.” Every prayer I prayed was answered again. Now I know, and I'll tell listeners, if you're going to pray, you need to be specific. Be specific when you say, “Get me to the hospital and not in the car.” I learned that. Julie: That is so funny.Sheryl: I did not tear, and that was something I had prayed for which was really cool because my midwife is older, so I think this was baby number 1900 for her or in the 1900s. She had always told me, “Hey, when you go to push, don't push the head out. Just breathe it out. Don't push and you won't tear.” As he was coming out, that's all I could hear in the back of my head was Leanne saying those things. It worked. That was really special. She was really, really proud of me for remembering that. Julie: I love that so much. Okay, you guys know I love a good car birth story. It's my favorite. It would be my dream birth. People might think I'm crazy, but man, I just dream one day of following somebody as they rush to the hospital in labor and then pull over to the side of the road, and I get to document a car birth. Anyway, probably not what you would use to describe it, but what happened when you got to the hospital? I'm assuming you got into the ambulance and drove over. They checked you out. You didn't tear and everything. Did you go home or did you stay in the hospital? Sheryl: We stayed in the hospital because they were like, “It's not necessarily you, but the baby. We have to monitor the baby for 24 hours.” My husband and I looked at each other. We were like, “We have to be here for 24 hours? We should have just gone back home and had somebody check on us there.” But yeah, it was great. I got in the ambulance. My husband had my phone. I looked down, and like I said, my sister was tracking me. I had a text message that said, “Did you just give birth on the side of the road?” I responded, “Yes, I did.” She said that as soon as she saw the car stop moving, she kept refreshing and the car did not move. She just knew. That was fun. I started nursing. I'm laying there in the ambulance, and I'm like, “Well, hand him to me. I want to see if he's going to nurse.” He latched immediately. They were surprised. Also, two of our EMTs were Amish guys, so that's fun. To live in Amish country, you do have Amish EMTs then, so that was fun. Julie: Yeah. Wow. That is so crazy. I think that is just such a way to highlight how every birth is different. We talk about how every person is different. Every pregnancy and birth is so different and unique in and of itself. You had three very different birth experiences. I love that. I was trying to do the math in my head about how long this was from when you woke up at 1:30. What time was baby born?Sheryl: 2:20. Julie: Oh my goodness. Girl. Sheryl: Yes, so less than an hour. I never would have thought. We did joke a couple times, “Hey, if you want your VBAC, just have it in the car, and you for sure will get it exactly how you want it if you don't want Pitocin and all of that.” We joke about that, but now we know that you probably shouldn't joke about that. It might happen. But honestly, I never thought. I'm a little bit crunchy, but not super. I didn't want a home birth or a free birth, but now, I get it. It was super empowering. I had so much adrenaline and just to be like, wow. My body did what it was supposed to do. I can trust it. It knew when to go into labor. Obviously, it doesn't always go that way, but this time it did. It knew what it was supposed to do.Somebody told me that their doctor said, “I never trust third babies.” Julie: I always say that too. Sheryl: Yep. It's definitely true. Julie: I always say that I don't trust babies. I especially don't trust third babies. It's just so unpredictable especially when you let babies do their thing. There are times when interventions are needed. There are times when Cesareans are lifesaving. There are times when induction is necessary, but I feel like the biggest majority of the time, if we just let the body do what it knows how to do, things will happen just beautifully and perfectly. Like I said, there is nuance there. It's important to acknowledge that, but a lot of amazing things happen when we just trust and create space for the body and the baby to do their beautiful labor dance and let things happen as designed. I think it's really neat. I think it's all neat. I'm a birth nerd. I think birth is neat. Birth is cool, and I think there are lots of really cool things to say about all of your stories. I do think it's really important that with VBAC especially, you can have a VBAC in lots of ways. You can have it in the hospital, a planned induction, a planned epidural, planned unmedicated, in-hospital, out-of-hospital, or however you want. A free birth, unassisted or whatever. You can do it all of the different ways, but I think it's really important. We talk a lot about, especially with VBAC, laboring like a first-time mom and being prepared for the long haul. Plan for a 20-hour labor or longer.But I feel like maybe it's a disservice to not talk about the other side when things can pick up and start really fast and go really fast because I feel like the perfect length of labor is a nice 8 hours. 8 hours is a good amount of time where it doesn't railroad you. You don't have to catch up and process. You don't feel defeated because it's taking so long. 8 hours is a really great length. I think it's a disservice to talk about that would happen if there is not time to get to the hospital or if there's not time to get an epidural. Sometimes parents rely so much on not getting a medicated birth that they don't think about what would happen if there is not time for that, then being railroaded by a fast labor and not being prepared for the intensities that come with that can cause birth trauma in and of itself even though the body is doing its thing and we trust the body. It can cause trauma by having something that you didn't prepare for or expect of plan for. I would encourage everybody that if you are planning a home birth, if you are planning a long labor, cool. That's great. It's great to be prepared for things. I always say to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, but sometimes, it's good to prepare for the other things too. Prepare for the things that are opposite of what you want or what you are hoping for or what you are preparing for because at least if you acknowledge them and make a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C, then you will be less likely to be unprepared or caught off guard or have the opportunity for trauma to be introduced to your story. I think it's really fun to explore all of these different things and hear all of the different stories and how different everybody truly is. I love that. What would you say? Sheryl: As far as that, a lot of people were like, “Oh man, my husband could never do that.” One, so many instincts just kick in. So many people said, “How did you know what to do?” One, I've had a baby before. Two, my body knew what to do. I just listened to the cues. Okay, what should I do? What feels comfortable? But then again, my husband was amazing. No fear. He caught the baby. He drove to the hospital with bloody hands, but he is a hunter and a farmer, so he's like, “Yeah, no big deal.” He's known as a cool, calm, collected guy, and he even is when he is delivering his own baby in the back of a car. The other funny thing was that since we had just moved back, we had bought a new vehicle. I had dreamed of being a minivan mom almost my whole life. I had always wanted to be a mom. Finally, my husband got me my first minivan. Baby number three on the way, we finally get a minivan. Luckily, it came with really good mats in it that had a wide lip around the edge. Everybody was like, “What a mess that must be.” Lucky for us, everything stayed right there. The next morning, Javen went and got me breakfast. On his way to get me breakfast, he stopped by the car wash and dumped it out, rinsed it off, and we were good to go. Julie: Perfect. Sheryl: The doctor at our practice was like, “You really should write that company and do a review for them.” Julie: That is amazing. Sheryl: If you are thinking of having kids, you should put that in. Julie: Maybe you'll get a free car. Did you hear the story about a guy who had a Stanley-insulated tumbler in his car, and his car caught on fire? After, he was going back through the wreckage. The car was literally on fire. He has a video of this car. He's looking through it. It's charred and burnt, then he opens up his Stanley cup and there's still ice in it. Then Stanley the company gifted him a new car. Sheryl: Oh, wow. Oh man. Julie: The natural advertisement for that. Can you believe it? Sheryl: Maybe I need to reach out. Julie: Do it. Sheryl: As we were sitting there in the hospital, we can't sleep after that. It takes hours for you to calm down after that much adrenaline. Life for the last four years, really, has been crazy. I think we've lived in six or seven different houses. We have been back and forth to three different countries basically. That part of our story is coming to a close. It was like, yep. Okay. This is a really great way to end this chapter of our life with a carbirth. Our life will continue to be interesting and crazy in other ways. Julie: That is amazing. It sounds like you have quite an adventurous life for sure, and what a story. What a story to tell. Thank you so much. Oh wait. Before we wrap it up, I want you to tell us your best VBAC advice. What is one thing you would tell anybody preparing for a VBAC? What should they do? Sheryl: Yeah, great question. I would say to prepare like it's a marathon mentally. Really think about what you want. What to you is a part of birth? If you follow the Lord, ask Him those things because He does want to answer our requests. He does delight in giving us what we want. Sometimes, He doesn't always answer that, but in my experience, when I've asked in this specific area, He has given me what I wanted. Really pray about it. I know that with every birth, I have gone and gotten a massage. For that hour, I have focused on, “Okay. What is an important part of birth to me?” That would be my advice. Really focus mentally on feeling strong and capable. Julie: I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Sheryl. It's been such a joy to listen to your stories. Yeah, so fun.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Abigail's first pregnancy turned into a life-threatening birth experience with undetected gestational diabetes and a traumatic ICU stay. On top of that, she unexpectedly had to move homes just two weeks postpartum. Abigail quickly developed intense postpartum depression and struggled to make sense of what happened to her. She was sure she would never have kids again, but after therapy and healing, she and her husband found themselves wanting another baby three years later. Abigail became pregnant right away, and she knew this time would be different. This time, things would be better. From the meticulous monitoring to the candid conversations, Abigail felt heard and supported throughout her entire pregnancy. Her gestational diabetes was detected and very controlled. While a scheduled C-section seemed to be a logical choice, she knew her heart wanted a VBAC. She was able to go into spontaneous labor and pushed her baby girl out in just 13 minutes!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome to the show, everybody. We have our friend, Abigail, from California with us today. She is a 27-year-old stay-at-home mom with a 4-year-old daughter and a 7-month-old son. She experienced a very unfortunate, traumatic experience with her first which really left her not really sure that she wanted any more kids. She's going to dive more into her wild experience, but she had a COVID pregnancy. She had a lot of different stresses through the pregnancy, especially at the beginning– gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, and so many things with her first that really taught her a lot, and had a wild birth experience. Then the second time, she ended up getting gestational diabetes again, but did a lot of different things to improve her outcome like hiring a doula, getting a supportive provider, and all of that. We are going to turn the time over to her in just one moment, but I do want to quickly in place of the review share a couple of tips for gestational diabetes. If you guys have not heard about it so far, check out Real Food for Gestational Diabetes by Lily Nichols. It is absolutely incredible. It is less than 200 pages long. It is a fantastic read and filled with a lot of really great information and studies. She also talks about prenatals, so I wanted to remind everybody that we have a partnership with Needed who we just love and adore. We do have a promo code for 20% off. You can get your 20% off by using code VBAC20. Definitely check that out.Then we are going to be including a lot of things in our blog today like third-trimester ultrasounds, sizes of baby, and gestational diabetes so make sure to dive into the show notes later and check out what we've got. Okay, my darling. I'm so excited for you to share your stories today. I feel like there's part of your story that I want to point out too before you get going, and that is that sometimes you can plan the most ideal birth scenario, and I'm not going to talk about what this scenario is, but a lot of people are like, “Do this. Do this. Do this.” Sometimes you plan it, and then your care falls short or something happens and plans change. If you guys are listening, I just want you to dive in. As you are listening to Abigail share her stories, listen to how sometimes things change and what she did, and then what she did differently to have a different experience. Okay, Abigail. Abigail: Hello. First of all, I just want to say that I'm really happy to be here today. Thank you for having me today. Meagan: Me too. Abigail: Yeah, I guess let's just dive right in. Meagan: Yeah. Abigail: First thing is I am a stay-at-home mom, so my mom is out in the living room with my babies right now, and at this point, my son is 7-months-old, and we are having a really good time over here. I just want to start by saying that. Basically to start with my story, I got pregnant for the first time in January of 2020. Everybody knows what else happened in 2020. I was, I think, about 12 or 13 weeks pregnant when everything completely shifted. Everything started to shut down. There was a chance that I was going to get laid off of work which I did end up getting laid off of work about a week later. It was not a fun time. My husband and I had an apartment. We lived in a place we had just moved to. We had been there for about 3 years. We had a roommate, and everything was totally fine. Everybody worked full-time. I was working out regularly. We had a pretty chill life. Go to the farmer's market on the weekend. I was really excited when I found out I was pregnant. I was like, “Okay, yeah. We are going to bring a baby into this. Let's do it. I love what we're doing.” So again, everything completely shut down and shifted. Our roommate decided he wanted his own space, so he gave us a 30-day notice. We were stuck in a situation where they were raising our rent because our lease was up. We would have had to re-sign. It would have cost us more and everything, so we were looking at having to move because our roommate was moving out. It was all not a very fun time, so we decided to move back to where we were from, rent a room from a family member, and stay with them for the time being. They had a little bit of extra space for us. We thought it would be totally fine and everything. We moved when I was about 20 weeks pregnant. Up until that point, I had regular OB care at a regular office. I had done all of the blood work and everything and the ultrasounds and the anatomy scan and everything up until 20 weeks. When we moved, I decided, “Okay, I think I want to have the baby at home, especially now since the pandemic.” I don't know that I really wanted to go to the hospital, but I wasn't sure that I wanted to do that to begin with. I grew up in a community where home birth was pretty normal. My mom had my younger brother at home. Several of my friends were born at home and their siblings when we were younger. It was a pretty normal thing to me. I reached out to a team of midwives. I talked to them, and got everything set up. I started doing appointments with them. They were coming over to my house fairly frequently. It was pretty nice doing the regular blood pressure checks and the urine samples with the little sticks, and all of that stuff. When it came time for the gestational diabetes testing, I was like, “Okay, is this something I have to do?” I didn't have my insurance set up at that point or anything because we had just moved so we would have to pay out of pocket for it. I would have to go sit in some lab or office some place. Again, during COVID, while I was pregnant, I was like, “I don't know. If I don't have to do it, I don't want to. If I have to, I will. What are we doing here?” They were like, “Well, you're low-risk. These are the risk factors. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. You just have to sign this form.”I was like, “Okay, cool. I'll sign the form. Seems easy enough.” I totally skipped the gestational diabetes testing. That was on me, but it wasn't on me at the same time because I don't feel like I was given proper informed consent. There was a team of three midwives plus a student, so a total of four that I was seeing. One of the midwives ended up getting switched out at about that point, so it ended up being the student, the same original two, and then one newer one. Everybody was really nice. They were coming over and checking on me and doing all of the things that I thought they were supposed to be doing. I was not weighing myself. We did not have a scale. Again, they didn't tell me that it is important to make sure that you're not gaining too much weight at a time or anything like that. What happened was, I started gaining a lot of weight, but I didn't really realize just how much weight I was actually gaining. I was like, “Oh, I'm pregnant.” I quit going to the gym. I can't even hardly do anything. It's hot out. It's summertime. I was pregnant from January to September, so the bigger I got, the hotter it got.I didn't do much, so I was like, “Whatever. I've gained some weight. It's not a big deal.” I was a pretty small person to start with. Just for reference, I'm 4'8”, and I was 95 pounds when I got pregnant initially, so really small. It started becoming concerning because toward the end of my pregnancy, and toward I guess not even the end, the beginning of my third trimester, I started getting really swollen. Like, really swollen. My feet and my legs up to my knees– not just my feet, but my calves and everything were pretty swollen. Toward the end of my pregnancy, I had swelling up to my thighs. I'm being told this is normal. I'm 23. I've never been pregnant before. I don't have any support groups or anything going because it's COVID. Nobody wants to talk to anybody or do anything. It was a little frustrating for me because they were like, “Just put your feet up. Soak your feet.” If I soaked my feet, they got more swollen. I was not taking proper care of myself either. I went from exercising and eating right and doing all of the things that you are supposed to do to sitting at home and eating a lot of fast food and not walking. I was not having a great time mentally either. We were living some place I didn't want to be living. It was all of it. I didn't think too much of it. Again, I'm like, “Well, I'm being told this is normal. I'm gaining some weight. It's fine.” At one point, one of my urine tests that they did came back positive for glucose, and they were like, “Well, what did you eat for breakfast?” When I told them, I was like, “I had some waffles. I had some orange juice,” and whatever else I had, they were like, “Oh, you just had some orange juice before you got here. That's fine.”I was like, “Okay.” They didn't think to check it again. I didn't think to get a second opinion or anything. At one point toward the end of my pregnancy, I had a blood pressure reading that I checked myself at home with the little wrist cuff. That was really elevated. It was the end of the day. I texted the midwife. I was like, “Hey, my blood pressure is really high.” She was like, “What did you do today?” I was like, “I didn't really do much. I ate this for lunch. I had some soda.” She was like, “Okay, well that's probably fine. Just rest and check it again in the morning.” I checked it again in the morning, and it was still relatively normal, so they didn't do anything. One of the midwives came over at one point and dropped off some herbs for me that they wanted me drinking like some tea or something like that because I was getting swollen. I was standing outside talking to her, and she was like, “Oh my god, I can see your feet swelling up while we are standing here. You need to go back inside and put your feet up.” Again, nobody thought anything of it. How four people missed all of this, I don't know. I feel kind of like the student may have been more concerned, but didn't really know how to say anything or anything, just looking back on the facial expressions she would give and things like that. I go into labor right at 40 weeks. I am planning a home birth. Everything is set up for that. I've got the tub at my house. We've done the home birthing class and how to get everything set up. We've done all that. There was no backup plan in place. They did not suggest that I have one. Again, I did not know any better at the time. I was told that if there was some kind of emergency, I would go to this hospital. That was as far as it went. I didn't have a backup bag ready. I didn't have a hospital bag ready. I didn't have anything planned. There was no, “Hey, this is what we watch out for. This is what you might go to the hospital for.”I go into labor at 3:00 AM. Honestly, contractions started, and they were immediately painful. I've never done this before. I'm like, “Okay well, maybe we're just starting out harder than I thought. That's fine. Maybe there's not going to be early labor.” I labored for a couple of hours. I was really uncomfortable, so I called the midwives. They came over. They checked, and they were like, “Okay, you're only at 2 centimeters, and this is seeming like early labor.” I'm like, “This really painful. I'm not having a good time. This does not feel okay at all.” They checked my blood pressure. My blood pressure was through the roof. They waited a little bit, checked it again, and it was even higher the second time. They were like, “Okay well, this is out of our care. You've got to go to the hospital now.” I'm like, “What do you mean I've got to go to the hospital? That's not part of the plan here. We don't even have a plan B or anything.” Through tears and contractions and everything, I was having contractions maybe every 10 minutes or so, 5-10 minutes. Somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly. I got a hospital bag ready. I got some clothes for the baby together. I got my phone charger, my toothbrush and everything, and we headed to the hospital. I sat in triage by myself for 4 hours because they did not have a bed available for me. They would not let my husband into triage with me because it was COVID. The entire time, I was so uncomfortable. They had me immediately start on blood pressure medication to try to get my blood pressure down. They started me on magnesium, and they told me that the magnesium was going to make me feel yucky which is the biggest lie I have ever been told by a nurse. I don't know if she just never had it or what, but I felt like you have the worst flu you've ever had. My whole body hurt. It made everything feel worse. I felt groggy. I felt sick. It was not fun at all. At that point, I think I got to the hospital at 11:00 AM. They didn't get me into a room until 3:00 or 4:00 that night. So at that point, I'd been in labor for 12 hours. I was still hardly dilated. The doctors, initially when I got there, said, “Your notes say you are only 2 centimeters. Why are you here?” I was like, “I don't know. I was told to be here. I was told that my blood pressure is high or whatever. I don't know. I don't want to be here.” They did all of the things. They ran all of the tests. The doctor comes back in and says, “You are severely preeclamptic. Why did you not get here sooner?” Meagan: So why are you here and okay, why weren't you here sooner?Abigail: Yeah. I was like, “I'm so confused. I don't want to be here.” I'm freaking out. I'm stressing hardcore. My blood pressure went down for a little bit, but it stayed really, really, really high. They put me on fluids and everything which of course, did not help with the swelling. They get me into a room and everything. Things are moving along. It's going fine. I was okay for a little bit, then it got to the point where my legs were so swollen that I felt like they were going to pop. My legs felt like balloons that were going to explode. They were trying to put compression boots on me and stuff in the bed. Every time I was having a contraction, I was trying to get up and get moving because it felt better to get up and move. They were taking the boots on and off. It was miserable. After, I think, 28 hours of labor at that point, I was like, “Okay. I would like an epidural, please. I really don't want to have to get out of bed. I can't do this. I want my legs up. I don't want any part of this.” They got me an epidural. I don't know exactly how many centimeters I was at that point, but things had not moved very far in 28 hours. The doctor kept pushing to try to break my water. I kept telling her, “No, thank you. I don't want that. It will break on its own. I would like to take a nap.” I took a nap. My water did break on its own. That was nice. The water was clear. Everything was fine. We are still moving. I have an epidural. It's working great. I'm laying in bed. My blood pressure was still high. The swelling was still bad, but other than that, everything was maintaining. We were fine.I continued laboring for a while. I was getting checked pretty frequently because the doctors were uncomfortable with the situation. Again, looking back, I realize why they would be uncomfortable with the situation. They kept checking me and trying to want to do stuff. I was on Pitocin at that point. They had started it at some point, I think, shortly before I got the epidural. I had been on that for a while. It had been from being okay to all of a sudden, I was not okay. I don't remember exactly what hour that happened. It was somewhere between probably 36-ish. I was dealing with some stressful stuff with some family members. I was not having a good time. My phone kept going off. I was just trying to rest. It was a miserable time. They said that I was getting a fever all of a sudden. They were like, “You're getting a fever. We're going to see what we can do.”  They tried to give me Tylenol to bring it down. They tried putting a cool rag on my face. They were trying to get me to eat ice. At that point, they had completely stopped letting me eat because initially when I got there, they were letting me eat a little bit, but that stopped. They wouldn't let me drink anything, so they were giving me ice chips and stuff. I started getting to the point where I was feeling really sick, like more sick than I already felt. They checked me again, and depending on which doctor did it, I was at a 6 or a 7 still. They finally called it. They were like, “You have an infection. You are not doing okay. This is not okay. You need to have a C-section now.” Crying, I was like, “Okay, fine. That's not what I want, but let's go.” They prepped me for the OR, got everything moving, got me back. By the time I got in there, it had been 38 hours. I had an epidural for about 12 of those hours, I guess. At that point, it wasn't working super well anymore. It was not working well enough that they could do the C-section, so they put in a spinal as well. I had both of those done. To my understanding, they are two different pokes. Again, I didn't want either initially, and I got both. I was not thrilled about that. I'm laying on the operating table. I was so thirsty. They wouldn't give me anything to drink. They kept giving me this moist sponge. They said that I couldn't suck on the sponge. I could moisten my mouth with it. They gave me some stuff to drink that said it was going to make it so I didn't throw up. I wasn't nauseous at all the entire time. I hadn't thrown up at any point at all. I was like, “I don't want this. I don't need it.” The stuff that they gave me tasted awful, and they wouldn't give me anything to rinse it down. My mouth is dry. I'm gagging from how dry my mouth is, and the stuff tastes bad. They have me strapped to the table. My arms are down. I just laid there crying. The C-section went fine. They got my baby out. She was okay. She was 7 pounds, 12 ounces. For somebody who is my size, I was like, “Wow. That's a really big baby.” That was surprising. So they get me sewn up and everything. They let me look at my placenta, and it was four times the size of any placenta I have ever seen. It was like a dinner plate sized, but a couple of inches thick, like really thick. I was like, “Okay well, that's really weird.” They moved me and the baby to recovery. My husband was with me. Everything was okay. Everything calmed down. We were okay now. We've got this. It's fine. Then all of a sudden, the nurse was like, “I don't like your bleeding.” This is the same nurse I had for two or three nights because at that point, I had been in labor for 46 hours. It was 46 hours by the time they took my baby out. I started labor initially on the 28th at 3:00 AM, and my baby was born on the 30th at 1:00 AM, so almost a full two days. She's like, “I don't like your bleeding.” I'm like, “Okay.” I'm really out of it. I'm not really paying attention. I'm trying to nurse my baby. I can hardly move. I'm uncomfortable. Next thing I know, there are more people coming in, more doctors coming in, more nurses coming in. They take the baby from me. They hand the baby to my husband, and they shove them out. I'm just screaming, “Please don't give my baby formula.” I don't know what's going on. I don't know where they're taking her. I was trying to nurse her, and I'm so confused now. Next thing I know, there are 10 people surrounding my bed. It's three doctors and seven nurses. I had one IV in my hand initially, or in my arm or wherever they put it. Next thing I know, I had two more IVs. There was one in my other arm and in my other hand. They put some pills up my backside, and I'm so confused what's going on at this point. I'm still numb from everything from the spinal and the epidural and everything, so I can't feel what's going on. She's pushing on my belly. She's changing the pads under me. Everyone is freaking out.Meagan: Wow. Abigail: I am fading in and out of consciousness. I don't know what's happening. My husband's freaking out. My blood pressure had dropped to 25/15 I think. Meagan: Whoa. Abigail: I was about to die. They finally got me stable. I don't really know what happened exactly. All I know is the next thing I know, I woke up and I was in the ICU. They wouldn't let my husband come see me. They wouldn't let me see my baby. I'm with a bunch of COVID patients and everything. They gave me two or three blood transfusions. They put a balloon in my uterus to apply counterpressure so that it would stop bleeding, and they had a bucket attached to it. I'm watching them just empty buckets of my blood. It was so scary. I'm laying in the ICU by myself, and the balloon in my uterus hurt so bad, like, so bad. I didn't end up moving. I laid there for the rest of that night, the entire next day, the whole next night, then I think they moved me the next day. It was a night and a half plus a whole day that I just laid there by myself. Meagan: Wow. So scary. Abigail: It was so scary. The nurses came in at one point and were trying. I think it was the lactation consultant maybe. They were trying to get me to pump and everything. I think I pumped once or twice, but I was not up for doing anything. If they didn't come in and sit me up, they didn't really do it. I finally get the balloon taken out because that was what I kept begging for. I was like, “Please take this out. It hurts so bad. The pain medications aren't helping.” I didn't want to give the pumped milk to my baby as it is because I was on so many pain medications and so many antibiotics and everything else. I get the balloon out finally, and I think they took it out that night then they moved me the next day. They moved me to high-risk maternity, and they let me take a shower and eat some food and stuff before they brought my baby back from the nursery because she was fine in the nursery. That was nice to be able to take a shower and wash off all of the blood. I was so covered in blood and everything. I looked at my C-section scar and everything for the first time, and I realized I had a reaction to the tape that was on it and stuff too, so my skin all around it was all irritated. All up and down my arms had been profusely poked and prodded because they were checking my blood every four hours because of the infection and stuff. Depending on the lab tech's skill and everything, it was not going well for some of them. They kept having to poke me. The IVs weren't working for them to take blood from or something like that so they just kept having to poke me more. Again, I was having reactions to some of the tape, so my whole arms are just completely raw and everything. I was still very swollen. I was very, very, very swollen still. They had compression socks and stuff on at this point, not boots at least. They finally bring my baby to me, and then we ended up spending three days in high-risk maternity, so total, that was two days in labor, almost two days in the ICU, and three days in the high-risk maternity. Total, I spent seven days in the hospital. I get home, and they had me on blood pressure medication for a few weeks until I think my six-week appointment when I followed up, and then my blood pressure was back to normal, so I was able to quit taking the blood pressure medication and stuff. I dropped 30 pounds instantly because it was all of the swelling that just came off. I had still gained a lot of weight, but it a huge chunk of it was swelling which is so bad. It was finally over. I was settled. I'm in bed with my baby, and then the family member we were living with decided that they didn't want us living there anymore, so at three weeks postpartum, we had to move. I had only been home from the hospital for two weeks at that point. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't want to be around the situation. My husband was dealing with it. I ended up going on a road trip with my grandma to go stay with a different family member out-of-state just to make sure my baby wasn't anywhere near anything that was going on. Three weeks after a C-section and almost dying, I was driving and doing a whole bunch of other stuff– going out, walking around, and trying to put jeans on. I couldn't figure out why my clothes didn't fit. I didn't realize just how big I had gotten. It was not a fun time. It was about five days out of town, then I moved into a different family member's house temporarily where I was completely isolated by the people that I was living with. They did not understand what I was going through. They thought that I was choosing to be difficult intentionally, so that created additional problems. I ended up getting pretty bad postpartum depression which is really not a surprise. I still didn't understand what had happened to me. I still didn't understand why I had almost died. I still didn't understand. I didn't know if I had done something wrong. I didn't know what was going on. I spent a lot of time really upset over the fact that everything went wrong, and I didn't know why. Life was falling apart around me. I was not doing okay. It turned into really bad postpartum depression pretty quickly. My husband and I got our own apartment when my baby was four month's old. I was like, “Okay, things are finally going to get settled. Things are going to be okay now.” It did not settle. My depression got worse, and I didn't even know what to do. I was eating a lot because I was like, “I'm breastfeeding. I need to eat.” I basically just sat at home, didn't do anything but eat and nurse my baby. I was very thankful I was able to successfully breastfeed my baby after everything that happened to me. All of the nurses at the hospital were surprised about that and stuff. Meagan: Yeah, with the amount of blood loss and everything, that's pretty rare. It's pretty rare. Abigail: Yeah. I never ended up giving my baby a bottle or anything because I was so scared that if I tried to give her a bottle or something that it would mess up my breastfeeding, and that was the only thing that had gone right. I was doing okay for a little while, I thought, but it was not okay. I was really not okay. I was very, very sad. I was fully convinced for a period of time that they should have let me die at the hospital. I was fully convinced that the doctor did me a disservice by trying so hard to save me. Meagan: I'm so sorry. Abigail: Yeah. I finally started therapy. I started trying to get up and do more and not eat so much and get moving. I think finally around the time my daughter was a year or a year and a half, I started to feel a little bit better, and things slowly did start to get a little bit better for me, but I was fully convinced that I did not want more kids. I was like, “I am never going through that again. I do not want another C-section. I don't know what happened to me, so obviously, I would have to have another C-section because we don't even know what went wrong.” It took me until my daughter was almost three. She was about to be three when all of a sudden, my mindset shifted, and I was getting mad at myself for feeling like I wanted another baby because I was like, “I don't want another baby. Of course, I don't want another baby. I made that very clear.” We got rid of all of the baby stuff. I told everybody I wasn't having more. What was wrong with me? I was fighting internally with myself because I wanted another baby, but I did not want another baby. It was insane. I kept it all to myself. I didn't say anything. All of a sudden, my husband was like, “I think we should have another baby. I was like, “What are you talking about? You're insane.” He was like, “No, really. I think we should have another baby.” I was like, “You shouldn't have said that because I want another baby.” Meagan: Yeah. I have been actually thinking the same. Yeah. Abigail: Yeah. I was pretty surprised that I got pregnant right away. Literally, within a couple weeks, I was pregnant. It was a good thing and a bad thing because it didn't give me a chance to overthink it, but also, it was like, “Oh no, I haven't even had a chance to think about this. This is definitely what's happening.”I started going to the doctor right at five weeks. They started doing ultrasounds right at five weeks. They were checking me for everything every time, all of the time. I had so much anxiety. I made that very clear to them. I think that's part of the reason that they checked everything all of the time and were trying to be more reassuring. They did ultrasounds at almost every appointment. Most people don't even get an ultrasound until 12 or 20 weeks. Meagan: And then that's the only one. Abigail: I had four of them before I even went for my anatomy scan. They were trying to watch everything and make sure everything was fine too because again, they didn't do my care last time. This OB place did my follow-up care afterward. They saw the aftermath of everything, and they were concerned and stuff. That's what we were dealing with. I was dealing with some nausea, so they gave me some pills for that. Come to find out, one of the side effects of one of the medications they gave me was anxiety. I was fighting a losing battle with myself because I was taking these pills for the nausea. I wasn't eating because I was anxious, and I wasn't eating because I was nauseous, then I was getting more anxious. It was a rough first 20 weeks I would say. Then I did start feeling better, thankfully, so I was able to start eating and stuff again. Once I felt better, I was eating ice cream and all of those things that I wanted and all of that. It was fine. I was doing fine. I was doing all of my appointments and stuff, then it comes up for my gestational diabetes testing. The doctor says, “You need to do this,” and immediately, I was like, “Yes, please. I need to do that because that's one of the things I didn't do last time. I need to do everything to make sure I'm good.” I need to backtrack a minute, I'm so sorry. At my first intake appointment at five weeks when I met with one of the– they're nurses, but it's not the nurse who actually checks you and stuff. They have an office at the OB's office, and they check in, and they ask, “Do you have transportation for your appointments? Do you need help with anything? Do you have access to food? Are you in a safe relationship?” I let them know what had happened previously with me, and she was like, “Oh, well then you might be interested in this. This is something new your insurance covers. You could get a doula if you wanted since it sounds like you wanted to have a more natural experience last time.”Meagan: That's awesome. Abigail: Yeah. Immediately, I was like, “Hell yeah. Let's do that.” I didn't have a doula last time. Again, last time was COVID. I was already trying to pay for the midwives. It wasn't something I thought about one, because I thought I was having a home birth with a couple of midwives. I didn't think I needed a doula. Also, I didn't fully understand what they were and the actual extent of the benefits of them. I was like, “Yeah, totally.” The first thing I did when I got home was call. They were like, “Yeah, we take your insurance. We can get you set up. We're taking new clients. Let's get you in for an appointment.” I started seeing a doula sometime in my first trimester. I don't remember exactly when, but I remember I pulled up the office and I got out. I was like, “This can't be right. This is too nice. There's no way my insurance covers this.” I was shocked at the care I received from my doula service. I'm just going to go ahead and give them a quick shoutout just because they are amazing, but it's Haven for Birth in Sacramento, California, and they do amazing work for a lot of different things. I still attend lactation meetings and stuff with them monthly. Meagan: That's awesome.Abigail: It's such a great team of people. I got the doulas that they set up for me because there are two of them. There's a main one and a backup one. My main doula's name was Heidi, and the backup doula's name was Francine. They were both so sweet and wonderful. Heidi has been doing doula work for a good amount of time. She owns a chiropractic business and Haven. She's the main one, and she's the one who has dealt with higher-risk pregnancies and things like that, so she was my main source of support and throughout everything. I would text her if I needed something. She was so reassuring. She was like, “Yep. You can totally have a VBAC if that's what you want to do.” I was like, “Really? I can do that, okay. I'm going to talk to the OB about it.” The OB was like, “Yeah. It's completely up to you. As long as you are fine and we watch everything, that's fine.” I really did feel like they were supportive. It wasn't like, “Well, if you are okay, then you can.” It was like both of the OBs that I had seen, one of them was a guy and one of them was a girl, and both of them were like, “Yeah, as long as we keep everything in check, you are totally fine. I don't see why you couldn't.”I started to feel a little more confident in that. I had a lot of anxiety about it and for a couple of weeks, I did contemplate scheduling a C-section just to ease my own anxieties, but I didn't feel right with that choice. I really didn't. I was like, “I need to try.” It was tough, though, because I was like, “I don't know how I'm going to deal with the feelings of trying and not succeeding,” so that was the struggle of, “Do I want to just have a C-section that way? I get what I want no matter what,” but I didn't feel like I wanted to do that. I worked really, really, really hard to get my VBAC is basically what ended up happening. Back to where I was, I get my gestational diabetes testing done, and the first-hour one comes back really high. I'm like, “Okay, that's concerning.” I texted my doula about it. She was like, “It's okay. You're going to do the three-hour one. You'll probably pass the three-hour one, but even if you don't, it'll be fine.”I failed the three-hour one really bad. My fasting number was fine, but the rest of the numbers were very elevated, not even just a little bit. I was like, “Oh, okay.” This is all starting to make sense. I had a lot of anxiety initially about what I could or couldn't eat because I didn't feel the greatest, and I was letting myself eat what sounded good to make sure that I was eating. It was a rough week initially when I got that, then it took them a minute to get me the referral in for the program, the Sweet Success program where I was actually able to talk to nurses and dieticians there. Once I finally got in with them, I met with them a few times throughout the end of my pregnancy. I did feel very supported by them. They were very nice. The dietician was willing to meet with me one-on-one instead of a group setting because I was having issues with eating and not wanting to eat and feeling very concerned that I was going to hurt myself or hurt the baby.They did a very good job making sure that I was cared for. We completely changed up my diet. I started walking after every meal. I started checking my blood sugar four times a day, so first thing in the morning, then after breakfast, after lunch, and after dinner. I basically, immediately after eating, would get up and do the dishes or clean up the food I had made or pick up the house or start some laundry or something so that I was getting up and moving. Only a couple of times, there was only once or twice where my blood sugar numbers were higher than they really wanted by more than a point or two. I did a really good job keeping those in check with what I was doing and watching what I was eating very closely and monitoring my portion sizes and realizing what I could and couldn't eat. Once I got to the point of 36 or 37 weeks or whatever where they were like, “Okay, this is the plateau. It's not going to get worse than this,” and I realized I was able to keep it under control and things like that, I would let myself have a couple of bites of a cookie here and there. It wouldn't spike my blood sugar or anything because I was doing everything I needed and that made me feel really nice because I was able to eat the stuff I really liked as long as that was within reason.We met with the doula multiple times. She came over and did a home visit at 37 weeks. I had been having Braxton Hicks contractions from the time I was 19 weeks because we got COVID. We got RSV, and we got a cold. We got a cold. We got COVID, and we got RSV. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Abigail: Yeah. That was the whole first half of my pregnancy along with dealing with nausea and everything else. I found out I was pregnant the beginning of September. We got a cold in October. I got COVID in November, then in December, we got RSV, and my daughter who was three at that point spent five days in the hospital, so I spent five days in the hospital right next to her dealing with RSV while I was pregnant. I feel like the coughing kickstarted Braxton Hicks contractions almost because at that point, I started having them pretty regularly. From 19 weeks on, I had tightenings all the time. Some days, they would be worse than others, but because I was so active, it definitely– I never got diagnosed with irritable uterus or anything, but I think that's what it was because it would get really irritable when I would do pretty much anything, and I was doing things all of the time. At 35 weeks, my contractions started getting fairly intense-ish. They weren't painful at all, but it was every 3-5 minutes, I was contracting. I drove myself to the hospital. I was like, “I'm fine. I'm not concerned.” I didn't bother my husband or my doula or anything. I let her know I was going, but I was like, “Don't worry about it.” They hooked me up. They checked me and everything. they were like, “You're hydrated. We don't need to give you fluids or anything.” They were like, “How are you feeling? You've got to tell us if they hurt or not because we can see them on the monitor, but you've got to tell us how you're feeling.” I was like, “I just feel annoyed. They tighten up, and it's uncomfortable when they do, but nothing hurts. I'm annoyed.” They were like, “Okay, let's check you.” I was still completely closed with no baby coming down. So they gave me a single pill to stop them and sent me home. It worked. It slowed them down for the rest of the night, then they kicked back up to their normal here and there the next day. But for the next couple of weeks, I kept it fairly easy. If I noticed I started I was having more of them, I would try to go lay down. I was able to have my baby shower at 36 weeks which was wonderful because I had not had a baby shower for my first baby because of COVID. I feel like 36 weeks was almost pushing it because my family had asked if we wanted to have it later to have somebody else be able to join us and I was like, “No, no. Please don't push it later. I don't trust that.” It was like I knew that he was going to come just a little early, but I was doing all of the things and still having the regular Braxton Hicks contractions and everything. They were doing multiple growth scans on my baby because he started measuring small at 28 weeks, I think. At his 28-week scan, they noted that his kidneys were slightly enlarged, so they wanted to follow up on that. They followed up on that at 28 weeks. His kidneys were completely fine. We never had another incident with that, but they noticed he was measuring a little smaller so they started doing regular checks. By the end of my pregnancy, I was having a growth scan every week, so they went from, “Let's check you in six weeks. Let's check you in four weeks. Let's check you every two weeks. Let's check you in a week.” They noticed he was measuring small, and he continued measuring small. Meagan: They were regressing, or he was staying on his own growth pattern but small?Abigail: He was growing but not a lot. Meagan: Okay, yeah. He was staying on his own pattern. Abigail: They didn't want him to drop below the 10th percentile, and if they did, they were going to be concerned. He did get right to the 9th or 10th percentile, so they did start to get concerned. They labeled him IUGR. They were doing non-stress tests on me twice a week. Basically, by the end of my pregnancy, I was seeing the OB, the place for the non-stress tests, the gestational diabetes program, the place for the ultrasounds and growth scans, a therapist, a hematologist because I ended up having to have iron infusions and B12 injections, and the doula's office, so seven places. Almost all of them wanted to see me every week. Meagan: Whoa. Abigail: I was running around, super active towards the end of my pregnancy. I was still taking my daughter out and doing all of the things with her as well. I noticed after my baby shower at 36 weeks that my feet were just a little puffy, and I was like, “Huh. That's funny.” It hit me all of a sudden. I was like, “My toes are kind of pudgy.” I'm 36, almost 37 weeks pregnant, and this is the most swollen I have gotten. It was not up my legs. It was not even in my whole feet. It was my toes and the top of my feet, not even my ankles. They were the tiniest bit puffy. I had this moment of clarity where I was like, “How did nobody notice that something was so wrong with me?” I was shocked because I'm looking at myself and I had gained a total, by the end of my pregnancy with my son, of 25 pounds, and that was it. With my daughter, by the end of it, I had gained 70 pounds. Again, how did nobody notice? I am shook. I thought on that for a long time. I'll come back to that, but I thought on that for so long. I ended up emailing the midwives who had provided me care. I was having a day. I went off on multiple people that day. I was not having it, and I emailed them, and I sent them a four-paragraph email about how they let me down. They should have known better. Somebody should have noticed something was wrong. They should have asked for a second opinion. It was ridiculous. I was shook that they didn't push harder for gestational diabetes testing, and all of the things because clearly at this point, I realized that my blood sugars being in control has made all of the difference. Not knowing, you can't do what you need to do which is why I'm such a big advocate for informed consent and gestational diabetes testing. I know sometimes I see people saying that they want to skip it because they are fine. I had zero of the actual risk factors, and I still had it. I'm just putting that out there. That's my main thing for this. Definitely get checked, and stay active, and watch your blood sugars because it's a really, really serious thing. I literally almost died. Sorry, I keep jumping around. My son was measuring small, so they started doing all of the tests and everything, and they couldn't find anything wrong. They were like, “Your cord dopplers look great. The blood flow looks great. Nothing specifically is measuring small. His head is not measuring smaller than the rest of him.” He was very, very, very low in my pelvis. I was waddling from 32 weeks on. He was low the entire time. I could feel him moving regularly. He was super active. I felt confident in myself. I felt safe. I felt good. they were telling me he was fine. Everything was looking fine. My fluid levels were looking good. My non-stress tests were always good. They make you sit for a minimum of 20 minutes, and if they don't see what they need to see in 20 minutes, then you need to stay longer. I never had to stay longer than 20 minutes. It was always in and out. He was always moving. His heart rate was always good. When they started mentioning induction at 37 weeks, I was like, “I don't want to be induced. I don't. There's really no reason.” They were like, “Well, he's measuring small. Your other baby last time was so much bigger. He is so small. This is such a concern.” I was like, “But I think there was something wrong with me and my baby last time. I don't think she should have been that big for me.” I thought that was the problem. I tried explaining that to them that I think they had it backward. They should have been concerned about how big my last baby was because they didn't check my blood sugar when I was in the hospital or anything. They didn't check it. Everything was fine. I was feeling fine. I was having pretty regular Braxton Hicks still. I was convinced I was going to have him early. I told him that. “I will have him early, and you're not going to have to induce me. I promise you. You're not going to have to induce me.” I told the doula that I promised the doctors and the specialists that I was not going to have to be induced. She was on my side. She was like, “Okay. We can try some midwives' brew if we get to that point. We'll talk about it.” I didn't end up getting to that point, thankfully. I had another scan at 37 weeks and 36 weeks. At 37 weeks, the doctor was like, “Okay, well, I specifically want to see you next week. I want you to come out to my other office next week because I specifically want to see you. I don't want you to see the other doctors. I want to follow up with you.” I was like, “Fine. I'll drive to Rosedale. No problem.” It wasn't farther than the other office I had been going to. I didn't get that far. I went into labor at 37 and 6. It had been a normal day. I had taken my daughter to the jumping place and had gone to the grocery store. I messed up when I went to the grocery store and the jumping place. I parked too far out, and I didn't think it through. I jumped near the jumping door, not the grocery door. Walking in was super close, but then I had to walk all the way back carrying my groceries. The carts didn't go out that far or anything. I'm like, “Oh my gosh. This is so heavy.” I'm still having Braxton Hicks the whole time. I'm feeling fine. I haven't had any kind of mucus plug activity or none of that. There was no swelling in my feet or legs. My blood pressure had been good. I checked it regularly. My blood sugar had been good. I had checked it regularly. I get home, and I'm like, “Man, I'm tired.” I got up, and I kept doing laundry and stuff. My husband gets home from work. He's like, “Hey, do you want to go out to dinner? We can go to the restaurant up the street.” I'm like, “Yeah, it's a beautiful day out. It's the beginning of May. That's a great idea.”It's a 3-minute walk from my house to the restaurant. I'm not kidding. About halfway there, I stopped, and I was like, “Oh. Well, that one was a little more uncomfortable than they have been. Okay. I actually felt that.” It felt like a bad period cramp, but also tightening with the Braxton Hicks at the same time. I was like, “I'm fine.” I kept walking. We get to dinner, and I notice at that point, I'm having mild contractions every 10 minutes. We ate food. I had sushi, and I know that rice spikes my blood sugar, so I try not to eat too much of it, but I was like, “You know what? I feel like I'm going to have them. I just need to make sure that I eat.” I ate my dinner. We walked back home. It was still about every 10-12 minutes that I was having mild contractions. We went about the evening as normal. I put my daughter to bed and stuff. I took a shower. My husband and I were watching some TV. I was bouncing on the ball. I wasn't really telling my husband that I was super uncomfortable at that point yet. It hit all of a sudden. It was 11:00 PM. At this point, it was 6:00 PM when I felt the first slightly uncomfortable contraction. It's now 11:00 PM. I'm like, “Okay. This is actually starting to get a little bit more uncomfortable.” I got up, and I paced around the living room. My husband was like, “Uh-oh. We should probably go to bed.” Yeah, we should probably go to bed. That was a good idea. We went to bed, and I did not sleep. I think I slept for about seven minutes because at that point, it went to seven minutes, not 10 minutes. I started timing them on my phone. I texted my doula. I made sure I had all of my stuff ready just to be safe. I made sure the house was picked up. I tried to sleep. I let the doula what was going on. She was like, “Don't worry about timing them, just get some rest.” I was like, “I'm not trying to time them, but every time I have one, I look up and I see the clock. This is happening.” She was like, “Okay, well I'll start getting up, and I'll be ready to head over if you need me. I want you to take a shower.” It took me a good 45 minutes or a half hour or something like that to actually get from hanging around my house to getting in the shower because I started shaking really bad, and I was starting to have contractions pretty quick together. They started getting closer and closer together. My husband ended up texting her at that point, “Hey, she's int he shower. I think contractions are getting closer together. They are two minutes apart at this point. You should probably head over.” She gets here pretty quickly. My daughter is still asleep. At that point, my doula was like, like, “Yeah, I think you're in active labor. We should think about heading to the hospital.” I'm only 10 minutes from the hospital, but my daughter needed to get picked up. I put my bag in the car. We call family. I get my daughter picked up. She hadn't heard anything. She hadn't noticed I was in labor. I wasn't being necessarily loud, but I wasn't also being super quiet or anything. She gets picked up. She's mad she's awake. It's 2:00 AM. We get ready to go, and by the time we get down the stairs, because I live in an upstairs apartment, so I'd been pacing the whole upstairs in my apartment and everything, I was super afraid my water was going to break in the car so I put on a Depends because I was like, “I'm not going to have to clean that up later because I'm going to be the one cleaning it up later, and I don't want to have to deal with that.” My doula was like, “Chris, get her a bag in case she throws up in the car. Let's go.” She tried checking my blood pressure, but I kept moving and stuff, so we couldn't get an accurate reading which made me that much more anxious. I was so afraid that by the time I got there, everything was going ot go bad. I had convinced myself that it was fine, but there was this nagging voice in my head that was like, “No, no, no, no, no. Everything went wrong last time, so surely, you are going to die this time.” I was like, “Nope. I am fine. Everything has been fine. They are aware. They have blood on deck for me. It's going to be okay. I've got this.” We get to the hospital. It's 3:00 in the morning. It's fairly quiet. We parked in the parking garage which was across the street. We walked through the parking garage. We take the elevator. We take the walk bridge across. We get into the hospital, check in with security and everything. they were like, “Oh, sweetie, do you want a wheelchair?” My doula was like, “No, no, no. She's fine. She will walk.” I'm like, “Yeah, okay Heidi. Walking is a great idea.” I mean, that's what she's there for. It's fine that I kept walking, honestly, because we had to walk from one side of the hospital to the elevator to take the special elevator that goes to the 6th floor. We're about halfway to the elevator, and I'm like, “Oh, I think my water just broke.” My water broke walking into the hospital which was that much more convenient. We get in. We get checked into triage. The nurse is so nice, and she was like, “It's okay if you want to give me a hug,” because they wouldn't let my husband or my doula in at first. I gave the nurse a hug. She was so nice. They were like, “We need a urine sample.”At that point, basically, from the time labor started, I couldn't pee. That was an issue, so they were like, “Don't worry about it. It's fine. Let's get you back on the bed. Let's check on you, and see how you are doing.” They said I was a 4 or a 5 depending on who checked and who assessed.They asked me about pain medication and stuff, and I was like, “I'll get back to you. I'm doing okay.” Contractions are about every 2-3 minutes at this point. My water had broken on the way in. They tried doing one of the swabs to check it was my water and not that you peed, and the nurse was like, “I'm not even going to send this in. It's fine. I know that it's your water.” They got me in pretty quickly. By the time I got into a room, I was like, “I would like some pain medication please.” They were like, “Okay, do you want an epidural? Do you want IV medication?” I remembered when I was in labor with my daughter, the nurse had initially offered me what was called a walking epidural, so I asked because I remembered declining that with my daughter. I was like, “No, no, no. I don't want to do anymore walking. That's the point. I don't want walking. no walking.” This time, I was like, “That actually sounds like I wanted to know more about that.” I asked the nurse more about it. She was like, “It's still an epidural. It's put in your back the same. It's just different medication. It's lower doses or different medication or whatever it is. It's going to provide some pain relief, but you're not going to be numb. You're still going to feel everything.” I was like, “Honestly, that sounds like what I would like. That sounds like it's a really good idea.” I was having a very hard time taking a deep breath. I was having a very hard time relaxing because I was so afraid that something was going to go wrong. At that point, my blood pressure was fantastic. Everything had been normal. No protein in my urine, no swelling, no high blood sugars, nothing. I was like, “Okay, this is going to be fine. I'm going to be fine.” I felt a little weird about asking for pain medication because I was adamant that this time, I was going to do it without it, but they called the anesthesiologist. He comes in, and he says, “Okay, are you sure you want the walking epidural? That's definitely not going to get you were you want to be pain-wise.” I was a little ticked off, but I was like, “Just get me what I asked for, please. If I change my mind, I will tell you.” That's the thing. If you change your mind, all they have to do is switch up your medication. It's not continuous with what I got. It's just a bolus of medication, and the little thing is taped on your back. You're not actually hooked up to medication or anything, but if I wanted to be, all they had to do was hook it up. I was like, “I'm fine. I don't need that. Thanks, dude.” They get me that, and they made me stay in bed for the first hour just to make sure I was okay and my blood pressure was fine and everything. My blood pressure was fine. Everything stayed fine. My blood sugar was a little high at this point. It was two points over the max where they want it to be. My husband ran down to the gift shop and got me some trail mix, cheese, and meat things. I ate that. They checked my blood sugar in a little bit, and it was back to a healthy, happy, normal range, so they weren't concerned. I was like, “I ate rice the night before, guys. That's all it was. You checked my blood sugar in the middle of the night after I had rice. Of course, it's going to be a little high.” At this point, it's 4:00 AMish. I stayed in bed for the first hour. My doula was like, “Okay, let's get you out of bed. Let's get you moving.” I was out of bed almost the whole time. I did spend a little bit more time in bed at one point. I had the initial bolus of medication. That was all I had, so at this point, I can feel the contractions are getting stronger, and I can also feel that the medication is also starting to wear off. It started getting more intense. I was on the toilet for a minute. I was still having the issue where I still could not go pee. My doula kept feeding me water after every contraction, so they were keeping an eye on that. My doula was keeping an eye on that and stuff. It got to where it was 8:00 AM, I think, so at this point, I had been in labor for a total of– from the time contractions actually started being painful at midnight to 8:00 AM– 8 hours. I was on the side of the bed leaned over the bed. They had it at my height. My husband was rubbing my back. The nurses were there taking care of me and making sure I was good. All of a sudden, she's like, “Okay, honey, I think it's time to get you back in the bed.” I was like, “What?” She was like, “We've got to get you back in the bed. With the noises you're making, and squatting down, we've got to get you back in bed.” With every contraction, I was bearing down. Meagan: And they just didn't want you pushing standing up, type of thing? Abigail: I think they wanted to check me and see how I was doing and everything. They had me on continuous monitoring, which initially I didn't really want, but up until that point, I hadn't minded the monitors. It was just at that point because I kept moving, and I was so sweaty. I was so sweaty. My IV kept slipping off. The monitors kept slipping off. My gown was drenched. My hair was drenched. They kept re-taping my IV, and I was like, “Can you please just take the IV out? It's bugging me.” At that point, the IV was somehow more painful than the labor. I was coping with labor, but I kept feeling the IV in my arm because they kept having to poke it and mess with it and stuff because it wasn't staying in. They ended up leaving it in which I was annoyed with, but I was in and out of at that point.They get me back in the bed, and they check me. They're like, “Okay. You're already starting to push. Let's get the doctor in here. Let's do this.”I'm on the bed. I've got the squat bar. I'm up on the bed on the squat bar. I'm kneeling in a lunge position. I've got one knee up and one knee down. Every contraction, they were having me switch my knees which started getting really uncomfortable for me. I felt so heavy, and I was falling asleep in between each contraction it felt like. I wasn't all the way there, but they ended up saying that my son's heart rate was dropping just a little bit, and they were like, “Okay, let's get him out. Let's move this along.” They pulled the squat bar, and they had me on my back. The bed was propped up. I was upright, and they had me holding my own legs. I was having a hard time because I was so sweaty that my hands kept slipping off the back of my thighs. They were like, “Okay, you need to push. Let's push.” I wasn't really listening to them. They were trying to do coached pushing, but if I didn't feel like it, I just wasn't doing what they were telling me. I was more listening to my doula than anything else because I felt like I trusted her and what she was saying more than anything else. I told them, I was like, “I feel like it's pulling up. I feel like it's pulling up.” They were like, “Okay, lower your legs a little bit.” It was really nice that I was able to feel everything. I put my legs down a little bit, and that helped a little bit. I don't know exactly how many pushes it was. I don't know if anybody counted, but it ended up being 13 minutes that I pushed for from the time they got me in the bed and were like, “Okay, you're pushing,” to “Let's get you on your back. Give a couple good pushes.” I think it was two pushes once I was on my back and he was out. Meagan: That's awesome. Abigail: He came right out. I had a small right inner labial tear, no perineal tears, and then I don't think I actually tore up, but I noticed I was sore afterward up toward my urethra, but they ended up only giving me one stitch on my right labia. That was fine. They did numbing shots and everything for that, and I could feel the numbing shots and everything, and I didn't like that. It's uncomfortable, but it was fine. I felt fine. I felt good. They put him right onto my abdomen because his cord was so short that they couldn't put him any further up. I wish they would have waited just a little longer to cut his cord, but they were like, “He's hanging out down here where we need to be,” because his cord was so short, which makes sense that he was head down the entire pregnancy and didn't move. He stayed right there. He flipped and rotated. Meagan: Transverse. Abigail: Sideways. He would put his butt back sometimes and toward the side sometimes, but that's all he would do. His head was in my pelvis the entire time. He comes out. Once they cut his cord, they moved him up to my chest and everything. They got me cleaned up and everything. Everything was fine. I got my golden hour, and he didn't want to nurse right away, but he was fine. They were taking bets like, “Does he look like he's over 6 pounds or what?” He ended up only being 5 pounds, 5 ounces. Meagan: Tiny. Abigail: He was a little, tiny guy. He was barely 18 inches. I had him right at 38 weeks, so he was a little small. He was closer to the size of a 35-week baby. Meagan: Mhmm, and he had IUGR. Abigail: I don't think there was anything wrong with him. I think I'm a very small person, and I think my first baby was too big because when I look at pictures, my daughter's head was coned off to the side, and I know that she did not have room to move around in there. She was stuck where she was stuck. Meagan: That would mean it was asynclitic probably. Her head was coming down wrong. Abigail: Yeah, which is probably why it hurt so bad. I know that now, initially, it started even with early labor. I don't think that even once I had an epidural with her, they were using the peanut ball. They were changing my positions. They were doing all of the things, and she wasn't coming down any further. She wasn't moving, and I wasn't going past a 7. I think that she was too big which I think is from having unchecked gestational diabetes. Even though she was considered an average-sized baby. I'm not an average-sized person. I'm really, really, really small. Me having a 5-pound, 5-ounce baby seems about right.He came out perfectly healthy. There was nothing wrong with him. His blood sugars were good. His blood pressures were good. Everything was great. And now at seven months, he's still slightly on the smaller side, but he went from being in the 2nd or 3rd percentile or whatever he was born into all the way to about the 20th. He's almost caught up. He's healthy. He's chunky. There wasn't actually anything going on with him. I think that says a lot to the fact that I'm just really small and my first baby was the result of an unhealthy pregnancy. I didn't have a postpartum hemorrhage. I didn't need any extra medication. I didn't need Pitocin. I didn't end up getting a full epidural. When they asked me about my experience, I made sure to tell them that the anesthesiologist should choose his words more wisely. It went well. I waited two months afterward to see how I was feeling and everything, and I do not have postpartum depression. Meagan: Good. Abigail: No more anxiety than what I regularly deal with. I have had a great time. Everything is just completely different, and my son is already seven months old, and I am already at a point where I'm like, “I want another baby.” I don't know if I'll actually have another one or not. I mean, there are financial reasons to consider and actually giving birth to another baby and raising another human. It's not just a baby. It's a whole other life. It's a lot, but I have baby fever already. I would absolutely do it again, and I just had him. Meagan: Oh, that makes me so happy. I am so happy that you had such a better experience that was more healing and positive and has left you having a better postpartum for sure. Abigail: It was a completely different experience. I mean, night and day. I'm just trying to make sure that I didn't miss anything. I think the only thing that ended up being different was like I mentioned, I couldn't really go pee. I did end up having to have a catheter at the end of my labo

What are the typical differences between hospital OB care and home birth midwifery care? Throughout her VBAC prep, Gesa was able to directly compare the two side by side. She was planning a home birth with a midwife but continued to see her OB at the hospital for the insurance benefits. Some differences she noted: Her OB used ultrasound to determine baby's position. Her midwife palpated her belly.Her midwife ran a blood test to check iron levels, and then suggested an iron supplement. Her OB did not track iron.OB visits were typically a few minutes long. Visits with her midwife were an hour or longer in her home. The hospital required cervical checks, laboring in a mask, continuous monitoring, and only allowed one support person. The way Gesa navigated her care is so inspiring. Her midwife was hands-on during pregnancy in all of the best ways and just as hands-off during birth to let the physiological process take over. Gesa's story is exactly why we love HBAC so much!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie:  Good morning, Women of Strength. I am really excited to be back here with you. This is Julie, and it is my first official episode back doing regular episodes. Just like we talked about a couple of weeks ago, I'm going to be doing– or was it last week? I can't remember what week it is. But we are going to be doing every other episode alternating between me and Meagan for the most part. I'm really excited to be back here. We have a really special guest with us today. But before we get into that, I want to say that I just got back from South Korea two weeks ago. No, two days ago. If you haven't listened to Paige's episode for her maternal assisted C-section, go listen to the episode that launched on December 2nd. I do believe it was maybe episode 357. Me and Paige are talking and sharing her story. I am literally so jet-lagged right now. It is going to be a morning for me for sure. If I'm a little clunkier than usual or my brain doesn't work just right, just be a little patient with me, please, because the jet lag is absolutely real. Before we do get started though and introduce our guest, I want to read a review. Meagan sent me a review this morning, and I think it's really interesting because she sent me this review this morning. It's a 1-star review, and you might be curious as to why I'm choosing to read a 1-star review, but I'll tell you a little bit more afterward why I picked that. This one is on Apple Podcasts. This person said, “Listened to 10 episodes, and found that the stories they choose to share are usually always the same with a twist. Didn't find any episodes that said ‘A C-section saved me and my baby's life' so lots of bias and fear-mongering from people who are selling female empowerment. Maybe I'm missing the episode where the hosts say that sometimes it's okay to have a C-section. With all of these birth stories, you would think I could relate with one, but I find that the anecdotes shared in this podcast are a really easy way to avoid talking about women who are actually statistical outliers.” I think that episode is really interesting. First of all, I appreciate everybody's views and perspectives. But also, I think that review is a little bit interesting because she said she has listened to 10 episodes. I'm just assuming it's a she. Maybe that's not the right way to do that. She said she has only listened to 10 episodes. It's interesting because I wonder what 10 she picked. I feel like, isn't it maybe a sign that all of the stories are similar because our healthcare system needs a lot of work? Clearly, if so many women are having trauma and unnecessary C-sections, isn't that a sign that something needs to change? I know that a lot of us have struggled with unnecessary C-sections and really traumatic treatment in the hospital systems, so I don't know. I wanted to bring that up because first of all, we do have many, many episodes where C-sections were necessary. We've talked a lot about that how C-sections are lifesaving procedures when they are necessary. I feel like we do a pretty good job leaving space for all of the stories, but let me know what you think. Go to the Instagram post today about this episode, and let me know. What do you think? Do you think we do a pretty good job? Do you think we need to have a little bit more talking about C-sections that are actually necessary and lifesaving? Do you think it's unequally represented? Let me know. I want to start a discussion about this. Go ahead and leave a comment. Let's talk about it. But I do know that me and Meagan have been very intentional with sharing a wide variety of stories and outcomes and necessary and unnecessary C-sections. Hopefully, you feel well represented no matter what side of the view you are on. Anyway, we are going to go ahead and get started now. Today, I have a really awesome guest. Her name is Gesa, and she lives in Charleston, South Carolina. She is a mom of two boys. She had a C-section with her first baby. The C-section was because of a breech presentation after she tried everything to turn him. Knowing that she absolutely did not want to have a C-section for her second baby, she navigated the difficult search for a truly supportive provider and ended up having a successful HBAC, or home birth after Cesarean, after having some challenges to get labor started. We are super excited to hear her story. We are going to talk more at the end about how to find the right provider for your birth and your birth after a Cesarean after she goes ahead and shares her story with us. All right, Gesa. Are you there?Gesa: I'm here. Julie:  Yay. I'm so excited to have you with me today. Thank you so much for joining me, and again, for being patient with all of my technical issues this morning. Gesa: Of course. Julie:  But I will go ahead and would like to turn it over to you. You can share your story with us, and yeah. I'm excited to hear it. Gesa: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and share my story. Okay, let's start with my first birth which was my C-section. Everything was going well at the beginning of the pregnancy. I was feeling a little bit nauseous, but overall, feeling well. Then at the anatomy scan, I found out that my baby was breech. I was like, “Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean for birth? What's going on with that?” We had so much time left. The provider was not worried at all. It was around 20 weeks so we thought we had plenty of time at that point. Babies are little. They flip-flop around. I was not concerned at all. As time progressed, he continued to stay breech, so he did not flip on his own. During one of my OB appointments, I was basically told, “Well, if your baby does not turn head down, we're just going to have to have a C-section.” There were really no other options given. At that point, I was actually planning a natural birth at a hospital, so that was not really what I had in mind. We had also taken a Hypnobirthing class which was awesome. We learned so much about birth and pregnancy that I had no idea about. Hearing that I was going to need a C-section if he wasn't going to turn head down was really not what I wanted. I started looking into things I could do to help him turn. I started doing Spinning Babies exercises. I started seeing a chiropractor. I did acupuncture. I even did moxibustion at some point which is really fun. It was a Chinese herb that you burn by your toe, and that's supposed to create fetal movement and help the baby flip which unfortunately did not help. I was out in the pool doing handstands and backflips about every day. I was lying on my ironing board at some point with a bag of frozen peas on my belly. I really tried everything possible to get this baby to flip. Nothing worked. I ended up trying to have the ECV at about 37 weeks. That's the version where they try to manually flip the baby from the outside. She gave it a good try to attempt, and he would not move. It was that his head felt stuck under my ribs. It was very uncomfortable. He was very comfortable where he was at. They had me schedule the C-section which I was really unhappy about, but at that point, I didn't really see any other option. It was about my 37-38 week appointment, and the OB wanted to talk a little bit more about the details of the C-section which made me really emotional because that was not what I wanted. I started crying during the appointment, then the nurse comes in and says, “Hey, we actually forgot to check your blood pressure. Let's do that really quick.” I was like, “I'm sure that's going to be great now that I'm all emotional and crying here.” Of course, the blood pressure was higher than it was supposed to be. The OB started joking, “Oh, maybe we'll have a baby today. Maybe we're just going to do an emergency C-section,” which was not what I wanted to hear at all. It made me even more emotional. I remember sitting in the office crying. Now, I had this high blood pressure. My husband handed me this magazine of puppies or kittens. He said, “Sit here. Chill out and just relax. Look at the kittens. They'll retake your blood pressure, and I'm sure it's going to be fine.” I was like, “Oh my god. Nothing is fine right now.” It ended up coming down a little bit. They still sent me to the hospital for some additional monitoring. It was all good, and we ended up being sent home. But I just felt so unsupported and so unheard in that moment. When I was thinking about the C-section, I was even considering at some point what happens if I just don't show up for my C-section appointment and just waited to see if I'd go into labor? But then I thought, “Maybe an emergency C-section would not be any better than a planned.” I had a friend who had an emergency C-section, and she said that the recovery was really difficult so that's also not really what I wanted. I went ahead and showed up to the hospital for my scheduled C-section at 39 weeks and 1 day. But I was so emotional. I was crying on the way to the hospital. I was crying at the hospital. Everybody was really nice at the hospital, but it was just not what I wanted. The idea of them cutting my body open and removing the baby was just so far away from what I had envisioned. The C-section went well. I really did not have any major issues. But recovery was pretty rough. He was pretty big. He was 9.5 pounds and 21 inches long. Recovery was a little rough. He had also a really difficult time with breastfeeding. He had a really weak suck. I just kept thinking, “What if he was not done cooking? What if they got him too early? He wasn't ready to be born yet.” We found out later that he had a tongue and a lip tie that the hospital failed to diagnose which just made things even more difficult. I, overall, hated my stay at the hospital. I felt like I was not getting any rest at all the whole time I was there. My son didn't like sleeping in the bassinet because why would he? I felt like there were people coming in all of the time and interrupting the little bit of rest that I was trying to get. They were checking on me, checking on the baby, taking temperatures, the photographer, the cleaning people. It was just like people were coming and going. The only person who did not show up who I hoped would show up was the lactation consultant. She did not show up for almost two days which was really, really disappointing. The first few months were pretty hard. I would say they were pretty rough emotionally and physically. When people ask me about my birth, a lot of times, I got comments like, “Well, at least he's healthy” or “Oh, your baby's really big, so it was probably good that you had that C-section.” That really upset me because I understand that it's important for my baby to be healthy. Yes, that is the most important thing. But at the same time, my feelings are valid about it, and my emotions. I felt really robbed of that experience to birth my own child. The fact that I had never felt even a single contraction really was upsetting to me. I felt that my body had really failed me. Yeah. I knew that if I ever were to get pregnant again, I would not want to have another C-section. So let's fast forward to my second pregnancy.I got pregnant again when my son was a little over a year and a half. Like I said, I knew exactly what I didn't want, and that was to have another C-section. When I found out I was pregnant, I pretty much immediately jumped on Facebook group and mom groups trying to do my research and find a truly supportive provider. I did call a birth center here in Charleston, and they told me right away, “We don't do VBACs. Sorry. You can't come here,” which was pretty upsetting because they basically see a VBAC or having had a C-section before is a high-risk pregnancy for your next which really does not make a lot of sense because every pregnancy is different. Just because you had a C-section, there can be so many different reasons. You should not be considered high-risk for your next pregnancy. I found a provider who I thought was VBAC-supportive. It seemed like that was my only option, so I started seeing her. As I was seeing my OB further into my pregnancy, I started asking some questions about birth. I really didn't like some of the answers she had for me. I asked about intermittent monitoring. She said, “No, we can't do that. Hospital policy is that you have to have continuous monitoring.” I didn't love the idea of being strapped to the bed. I wanted to move around freely. That was not going to be an option. I asked about eating. I got the answer, “No, we don't really allow eating while you are in labor. You can have clear fluids.” I was just thinking, “I don't want to eat ice chips while I'm in labor. If I'm hungry, I want to be able to eat.” I asked if I could labor in the bathtub because they did have tubs at the hospital. She said, “No, because of the continuous monitoring, you're not going to be able to get in the tub.” Hearing all of that made me really uncomfortable. Whenever I did ask questions, it almost felt like she didn't really want to talk about it. She didn't really want to talk about my birth plan which was really important to me. Now, at the same time, it was also COVID. I got pregnant with my second literally the week before people started quarantining for COVID. On top of all of these things that I didn't like about the hospital, there were also the COVID restrictions. I had to show up to my appointments in a mask which was totally fine, but the idea of having to labor in a mask made me a little uncomfortable. I was thinking about hiring a doula, and because they were only allowing one support person at the time, that was also not going to be an option. I knew my son wasn't going to be able to see me at the hospital which was something I was really looking forward to. I kept thinking, “Maybe there has to be another option. This can't be my only option here.” I started looking at places farther away. I was like, “Maybe I can travel to another place further away.” I was looking into birth centers around the area and all over South Carolina, really. At some point, I did come across a website that said they were offering VBAC support. I didn't really know what that meant, but I filled out a form. I said, “Hey, I need some help with a provider. I'm seeing an OB, but I'm not feeling super comfortable.” I submitted that form. I want to say that maybe a couple of days or a couple of weeks later, a midwife called me. She was like, “Hey, I'm not in your area, but I actually know a lot of people all over the state. Let me send an email to my network, and we'll see if we can find somebody who can help you.” One day, I got a call from a home birth midwife here in Charleston. She was like, “Hey, I got your message. Tell me how I can help you.” We talked a little bit about home birth. At that point, I was like, “Do I really want a home birth?” It was not something I had really considered.” During that HypnoBirthing class when I was pregnant with my first son, we watched a lot of videos of water births and home births. I always thought it was really cool, and I would love to have that experience, but at that moment, when she asked me, “Hey, would you consider a home birth?” I was like, “I need to think about that for a second.” I talked about it with my husband. I did a lot of research on home birth. I ended up sending her all of my medical records from my first pregnancy. We continued talking and checking. I continued to see my OB, and that was really for a variety of reasons. First of all, I had really good health insurance. All of my visits were covered, so all of the DNA tests, and things like the anatomy scan were covered by my health insurance, and it was just easy to coordinate those things with my OB. I also wanted to continue my care just in case there was something that would pop up that would prevent me from having a home birth and those plans would fall through. I'm a big planner, so I like having not just the plan, but also a plan B and a plan C. Yeah. I also like that established relationship just in case I needed a home birth transfer to the hospital. I've heard stories where moms were treated very differently when they arrived at a hospital with a home birth transfer, and in the case that I would have needed that, I could have just shown up to the hospital and said, “Hey, I'm a patient. I'm here. I'm in labor,” without them knowing that it was really a home birth transfer. I did not tell my OB that I was actually planning a home birth. I think she would have been pretty upset. Maybe she would have fired me. I don't know. But the difference in care that I received from the OB and from the midwife was really, really interesting. It seemed like at my OB appointments, there was a lot of focus on different tests and procedures like my weight. Further down, they wanted to do lots of cervical checks which I all declined. At the same time, when I talked to my midwife, the focus was a lot more on nutrition and on exercise. She was asking, “What do you do to prepare for your VBAC?” Lots of education on birth. There were lots of books that she suggested for me to read. I also started seeing a chiropractor pretty early in the pregnancy. I was doing my homework. I was doing my Spinning Babies exercises. I was so focused on doing everything I could to have the birth that I had envisioned. At some point, my midwife had me do some extra blood draws. She wanted to make sure that my iron levels were okay for the home birth, and they were actually slightly lower than they were supposed to be, so she put me on an iron supplement for a couple of weeks. That was an example of something that the OB never asked about or really cared about. At some point, I was a little bit nervous about the position of my baby. It almost felt like he was lying sideways, and I couldn't really tell. I brought it up to the OB. She was like, “Yeah. Let's get in the ultrasound machine. Let's take a look.” She was trying to feel, but she couldn't really tell. Everything was good. He was head down. Well, I didn't know he was a he because we did not find out the gender. Baby was head down. Everything was okay. I brought up the same thing to the midwife, and it was so funny because she did not need an ultrasound. She just felt. She felt really good. She was like, “Yeah. I know. I feel all of the different body parts. You're head down. You're good.” Of course, she was right. It was just so interesting to see how different things were approached by the two providers. I also hired a doula, and I made sure she was VBAC Link certified. It was really exciting. She was familiar with the podcast that I was, of course, listening to at the time to prepare for my VBAC. At some point, I had a situation with my OB that made me pretty uncomfortable. It was time for the GBS testing, and I had done my research. I made an informed decision. I let her know that I was declining the test. She was not happy to hear it. She kept saying, “Well, if your baby dies–”, and she kept saying that multiple times. It was like, “If your baby dies–”, and I was like, “This is so unprofessional to say it like that.” I totally understand that they need to–Julie:  Oh my gosh. I can't even believe that. Gesa: Yeah. Isn't that horrible?Julie:  That's horrible. Gesa: I understand she needs to educate me on the risks that come with declining certain tests, but that was just not a proper way to communicate that. Julie:  Yeah. Find another way. Find another way. Gesa: Yeah. Right. That situation really confirmed for me home birth was the way to go. I did not want anything to do with this hospital or this OB anymore at that point. I was fully committed to the home birth. I was planning on it. I continued my OB visits more just to check a box. At 37 weeks, my midwife brought over the birthing pool and some supplies. I gathered everything that I needed. She had sent me a list of all of the different supplies that we needed to buy and gather, so I started getting all of that. I created a beautiful birthing space for myself in our bedroom. I had my affirmations up. They were taped to my mirror in the bathroom as daily reminders. I had them hung up in the bedroom with some twinkle lights. I had the picture of the opening flower, and everything was ready. I had my Spotify playlist ready, and I was so excited for baby to come here. Then, at 39 weeks and 1 day, it was early in the morning, like maybe at 6:30 AM. I was lying in bed, and our toddler had climbed into bed with me. I felt a little pop, and I was like, “Hmm, that was weird,” but I didn't really think much of it because pregnancy is weird, and our bodies do all kinds of weird things that we can't explain when we are pregnant. I didn't think much of it. I went back to sleep. An hour later, I got up to go to the bathroom. I sit down on the toilet, and water is gushing out. I was like, “Shoot. What is going on? I'm not peeing. What's happening?” I just realized, “No, my water broke.” I wasn't expecting it at that point because you hear about a lot of women going into 40-41 weeks, 42 weeks, especially with their first pregnancy that they are going into natural labor, so I was so surprised that it happened at 39 weeks and a day. I was feeling a tiny bit of cramping, but definitely did not have any contractions. I texted my husband, “Oh my gosh. My water broke.” He was out for a workout, so he rushed home. I also texted my doula and my midwife just to let them know what was going on, but then the whole day was really uneventful. I was ready and waiting for labor to start. It just didn't. I went on a lot of walks. I tried some curb walking. I bounced on the yoga ball. I ended up getting a last-minute appointment with my chiropractor for a quick adjustment. I really spent all day just trying to get labor started. I took some naps. I also tried using the breast pump for some stimulation to get things going. I got some tiny little contractions. At that time, I thought they were contractions, but now that I know what contractions actually feel like, I realize that was not actually the case. I got some tiny contractions going, but then they fizzled out again. My midwife stopped by a few times to check on me and baby. She had me take my temperature every 4 hours and text it to her just to make sure I wasn't running a fever. Baby was moving normally. She wasn't overly concerned. She assured me that my body was probably just waiting until nighttime when my toddler was in bed and I was relaxed for things to start then. It was weird because I was leaking amniotic fluid all day, so I tried to stay super hydrated and replenish all of that water I was losing. I went to bed and thought, “Okay. This is it. We're going to have a baby maybe early in the morning. Labor is going to start.” Nothing happened. I woke up really early and really disappointed that nothing had happened. My midwife had sent me some information on PROM, so premature rupture of membranes, just to make sure I was making an informed decision. She always gave me the option to go to the hospital. She said that I could go in the evening of when my water broke. She said I could wait until the next day and do whatever I felt comfortable with, but she wanted me to be aware of the dangers with having a long time of broken waters. She also had sent me a recipe to the midwives' brew. That was something we talked about to get labor started. She said, “Something to consider for the next day if you don't have your baby overnight.” My husband went out. He bought the ingredients just in case. It was castor oil, almond butter, apricot nectar, and champagne. It was absolutely disgusting. It actually ruined almond butter for me for at least 2-3 years. I could not have it anymore. It was so gross. Julie:  Oh my gosh. That is so funny. That is funny. Gesa: I took it around 10:00 AM in the morning. At that point, my water had been broken for over 24 hours. I layed down for a nap, and maybe 2 hours later, I started feeling some contractions. They were coming in. I was just laying in bed breathing through them and listening to my HypnoBirthing affirmations and some relaxing music. My husband was actually taking a nap at that time with our son. At some point, things were getting pretty intense. I texted my doula and my midwife. I was trying to time contractions but it was also difficult. They both came over around 2:00 PM and realized pretty quickly that labor was going. They needed to fill that pool because that actually takes a while which was not something I was even thinking about.They quickly got the birthing pool filled. Once I got in the water, it was such a difference. At that point, I had some really, really heavy contractions and I think I got in there around 3:00 PM. It was such a night and day difference. My doula was awesome. She was rubbing my back. She was giving me cold washcloths on my neck. Yeah. She was super helpful. I was laboring in the tub. At some point, I needed to get out to go to the bathroom. As soon as I got out, I instantly regretted that decision because it was so horrible and the contractions were feelings so much stronger when I was not in the water. My husband was still sleeping at that point. I was like, “Okay, is somebody going to wake him up before baby comes?” But I also lost track of time of how long I even was in the pool. They did wake him up at some point. It was really funny because when he lay down for a nap, it was just me laboring in bed by myself. They woke up from the nap, and I was in full, active labor in the birthing pool with the doula and the midwife there, full action going on. He was just like, “Whoa, what's happening?” Yeah. He jumped right into action and helping me out and massaging and all of that good stuff. It was really sweet because my son kept bringing toys. He was a little over 2. He was 2 years and 3 months at that point. He kept bringing over toys. He was playing right next to the pool. He was checking on me. It was just really sweet and really special to have him there. Our dog was also walking around the pool and was really interesting in what was going on. I really lost track of time and of how long I really was in the pool. At some point, I felt some really, really intense pressure. It was almost like my body was pushing on its own without me really actively doing anything. I had heard of the fetal ejection reflex, but I didn't realize that that was what was going on. I didn't realize that baby was already coming. My midwife just looked at me. She was like, “Feeling a little pushy, huh?” I was like, “Yeah, I guess that's what's going on.” It all happened really quickly. My husband got our son situated downstairs because we wanted him to be there, but we didn't want him to be there right as baby was born. We thought that may have been a little bit too much for him, so we got him situated downstairs. Yeah, things happened really quickly. All of a sudden, his head was out. It was really fun because we got to feel his hair, and I did not have another contraction for a minute which was weird because his head was out. It was underwater, and it felt like a really, really long time between contractions. But then he was out with the next one, and my midwife caught him. He came right to my chest. My husband got to announce that he was a boy which I knew all along. We didn't find out his gender, but I just knew he was going to be a boy. My pregnancy was just so similar that I was like, “There's no way he's not a boy.” But yeah. He was born a little after 4:00 PM, so really just 6 hours from when I had the midwives' brew, so that really worked for me. Of course, I cried tears of joy. The amount of emotions I was feeling was just absolutely incredible. The rush of endorphins, I felt so empowered and so strong in that moment, like literally the strongest person in the world. It was awesome. We brought my son up and he got to meet his baby brother within minutes of his birth which was so special and such an amazing experience. Once we got settled a bit, I got to take a shower. I got to eat pasta in my bed, and then also safely cosleep with my baby in my own bed and in my own home which was just the complete opposite of that hospital C-section experience. Yeah, the home birth experience was really healing for me in a way. It gave me closure from my C-section experience. I think because I had the C-section, I just knew what I absolutely did not want, and I think that really helped me fight and prepare for my home birth experience. I still had to call my OB and cancel my 40-week appointment which was probably one of the weirdest phone calls I've ever had to made because I was like, “Yeah, I need to cancel my appointment because my baby is actually here.” They were like, “Wait, where was your baby born? We have no records of this.” I was like, “Yeah, he was born at home.” They were like, “You need to get him checked out immediately.”Julie:  You're like, “Yeah, accident.” Gesa: I was like, “No, we had a professional there. It's all good. Don't worry about it. Let's not talk about it anymore.”Julie:  I love that so much. Okay, I want to talk about a couple of things or maybe just comment. When you were talking about your C-section and how you felt guilty about how maybe he was having trouble nursing or whatever and you were feeling guilty that maybe he had been taken too early or he wasn't ready to be born yet and stuff, I felt that so hard with my C-section baby. I just wanted to validate that because I feel like that is not an uncommon thing. I feel like a lot of us have that concern when we have either a scheduled C-section or an induction that results in a C-section or maybe even an induction that results in a vaginal birth. You can look back at it and feel like, “Oh, maybe I made the wrong choice,” or “Maybe he was taken too early,” or things like that. I just wanted to validate that. Know that I see you, and I hear you, and I feel you. And everybody, not just you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself. I'm not speaking just to you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself because you were making the best decisions that you could with the information that you had available to you at the time. So give yourself some grace. Give yourself some love. I think that's really important is that we navigate our pregnancies and birth after having an unwanted C-section or an unwanted birth experience. Giving ourselves that grace is a really, really important part of it. I did want to talk about the difference in care. You highlighted a few things in your episode about the difference in care between a hospital OB and having a midwife or especially a home birth midwife. In the hospital, you're still going to see a little bit of similarities between midwifery and OBs, although midwifery care in a hospital is a lot more hands-on and a lot more personal and a lot more trusting, generally speaking, of the birth process. I just was thinking this morning about a post. There was a post in not even a VBAC group. It was just a local mom's group in my community. This woman was talking about how it was her first baby. She hasn't had an ultrasound or seen the baby since 10 weeks. She had a 10-week scan, and she hadn't seen the baby since then. She wasn't 20 weeks pregnant yet, but she was almost. She was just like, “I'm just wondering if this is normal. Every time I have an appointment with my OB, I only see him for 2 minutes. I don't feel like this is normal. I have some concerns, but I'm not being able to ask questions,” and things like that. It made me sad. It made me sad for this parent not being cared for in the way that she needs to be. It also made me sad because her experience is not that uncommon. I wanted to say that unfortunately, this is normal. You're not going to usually see your OB for more than a couple of minutes per visit. You're not going to have time to ask a lot of questions and get a lot of answers because hospitals are busy and OBs are busy. Most of them don't have the time or intentionally make the time to give you that kind of attention. It's just how it is. Now, I say most of the time because there are some OBs. I saw briefly an OB for my third pregnancy, and I love her. She was always 45 minutes late. Our appointments were always 45 minutes late. My appointment would be at 1:45, and I wouldn't get in there until 2:00 because she was giving everybody the attention that they needed. A lot of people get frustrated because she was an hour late for the visits, but I wasn't frustrated because I knew that she was giving other people the same attention that she gave to me. That is so, so rare in a hospital setting. I love that you highlighted that. I love that you talked about how your midwife took time to address your concerns, how she monitored your iron levels and gave your iron supplements and your OB didn't. It wasn't even on his or her radar. I don't know if your OB was a boy or girl. I can't remember. Their radar, right? And how your OB needed an ultrasound to confirm baby's position, but your midwife just palpated your belly because midwives are more hands-on. They are more intimately connected to the female body, to the baby, and to the physiologic birth process. Gesa: Yeah. She was more hands-on during the pregnancy, but then during the actual birth, she was very hands-off. She let me do my own thing. Julie:  Yeah! Yeah. Gesa: She wasn't constantly in my space and interrupting my labor. Julie:  Right. Gesa: She would come in very quietly and very softly. She would check on the baby and check on me, and if everything was good, she was back out the door. She let me labor in my own space and at my own pace which was awesome. Julie:  Right. I was going to talk about that next actually. I've been keeping notes while you have been talking because during your labor, you said you felt that fetal ejection reflex, and your midwife was like, “Oh, feeling pushy are we?” I know exactly what that looks like. I'm not a midwife, but I'm a doula. I've been a doula and a birth photographer, and I know what it looks like when a woman's body is progressing. But in a hospital setting, what do we do? We connect you to monitors. We put an IV in you. We sit at a nurse's station and watch the monitor. That's how we know how you are doing. We use ultrasounds to determine baby's position. We use data and numbers. We look at data to decide how the parent and the baby are doing. But in midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwifery care, you use a completely set of tools. We use observation. We are watching. We are listening. We are seeing. We are noticing the movements that are shifting and the sounds as they evolve and change. We are seeing the belly moved. We are seeing all of the different things, and it's a completely different approach. I know exactly what an unmedicated parent looks like as they are getting close to transition. I know the noises that change, what sounds are made, what different subtleties there are. You just learn these things when you actually just watch a laboring person, and notice what is happening. But they don't do that in a hospital. An OB and nurses– probably nurses because they are in the room a little bit more, but your OB won't show up until you start pushing. They don't know what the signs are. All they have is the data on the machine to see if you are doing. I know what approach I approve. Let's just say that. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of home births, especially for VBAC, when the parent feels comfortable there. I just really loved that. My appointments when I had my three VBACs at home, every time I saw my midwife, we would chat for an hour. She did talk about nutrition. I had preeclampsia for my first. My blood pressure was high. I was like, “I don't want high blood pressure,” so she gave me all of these nutritional things to do to help take care of my heart and help make sure that my blood pressure wasn't high. But then what would happen in the hospital? They wait until your blood pressure is high, then they treat it. They don't work on preventing it or making you healthier or things like that. I just feel like there is such a big difference in care. It's not for everybody. That's not where everybody feels safe, but I wanted people to know that home-birth midwives are very skilled. They are very hands-on throughout the pregnancy and oftentimes hands-off during the delivery because we trust these bodies to do what they need to do. Sometimes they do need help, but also observing and watching can help us know when a little bit of extra help is needed. It's such a fun little dance that can be done throughout pregnancy and labor. It's kind of like an art form as much as it is a medical side of things. Midwives are not chicken-dancing hippies that run around your room with incense and pray for a safe delivery. They are skilled medical professionals that have high levels of training and care and can practice in very similar ways that you see in a hospital setting just without all of the extra crap and interventions that are there. Obviously, they can't do surgery, and depending on your state and where you live, there are different restrictions about what out-of-hospital midwives can and cannot do. But a lot of people are surprised to find out how much training and knowledge and skills and procedures that out-of-hospital midwives have access to, so I wanted to talk about that. Yeah. Anyway, Gesa, do you want to give one piece of advice to anybody preparing for a VBAC right now? What would you tell anybody?Gesa: I think a lot of people, when they go to the doctor, they see their OB and they heavily rely on what they are telling them. They almost glorify the OB's advice in a way. We have got to remember that these doctors work for us. We don't work for them, so if we don't feel comfortable with what they are saying, we have the option to go somewhere else, and to take our business somewhere else. The doctors work for us. We don't work for them. It is never too late to switch your provider. I was going back and forth whenever I was pregnant with my first, and I was very late into my pregnancy. I kept thinking, “What if I just find a provider who does breech births?” In a way, I wish I had, but then you never know what actually would have happened, so it's hard to say how that would have changed my experience. I could have still ended up with a C-section, but I could have. I could have changed my provider at 38 weeks if I had contacted somebody, but I was just so overwhelmed by the whole situation that I didn't. But I was so glad that when I wasn't feeling comfortable with my OB during my second pregnancy and with what she was saying, that I took the step to find somebody who was truly supportive and who was able to help me with the birth that I had envisioned. Julie:  Yes. I absolutely love that. I think that's great advice. You make a very good point. It's never too late to switch providers. I think that the single most important thing that you can do to affect your birth outcome is to choose a provider who operates in the way that you want to birth just naturally. It's just what they do anyway. I feel like if you do that, then that's half the battle. Gesa: Yeah. 100%. I know some people feel very comfortable at the hospital, and a lot of people are not good candidates for a home birth. Julie:  Yeah, and that's where they should be. Gesa: When I told people that I was planning a home birth, I got a lot of people saying, “Are you sure? That's so scary.” If that's scary to you, then you shouldn't do it. If you feel safer in a hospital, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. Go to the hospital. Have your baby there if that's where you feel comfortable. For me, just the thought of having to fight for certain things while I'm in labor and very vulnerable wasn't something I wanted to do. I wanted to focus on laboring and birthing and just having that experience. I did not want to get into fights with OBs and nurses over whatever I could or could not do while at the hospital. That just did not sound like a good idea to me. Julie:  Yep. Absolutely. I agree, 100%. All right, well thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for sharing your story with us. I'm super proud of you. You said that after your baby was born, you felt like the strongest woman ever. I agree. You are the strongest woman ever along with all of the women listening right now. We are truly Women of Strength, and no matter how your birth outcome ends, you are strong. You are powerful. I'm very grateful to each of you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katie has had a Cesarean (failure to progress), a VBAC, and most recently, an unmedicated breech VBAC!She talks about the power of mom and baby working together during labor. She is 4'10” and attributes so much of her first successful VBAC to movement. Katie's most recent baby was frank breech throughout her entire pregnancy. After multiple ECV attempts, she exhausted all options to seek out a vaginal breech provider. She was able to work with providers while still advocating for what felt right to her. Though there were some wild twists and turns, this breech vaginal birth showed Katie, yet again, just what her body is capable of! The VBAC Link Blog: Why Babies Go Breech & 5 Things You Can Do About ItThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV and BreechHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is Julie Francom here with you today. I'm super excited to be sharing some episodes with you guys this year and helping out Meagan a little bit and keeping things rocking and rolling here at The VBAC Link. I am excited to be back, and I am especially excited to be joined by Katie today who has a really, really incredible story about her three births. Her first was a C-section. Her second was a VBAC, and her third was an unmedicated breech VBAC. I absolutely love hearing stories about vaginal breech birth because I feel like it's something that we need to bring back. It's only fair to offer people options when we have a breech baby. I don't think it should just be an automatic C-section. I'm excited to hear her story. I'm excited to hear her journey to find support in that regard. But first, I'm going to read a review. This review is actually from our VBAC Prep course. If you didn't know, we do have a course preparing you all about all of the things you need to know to get ready for birth after Cesarean. You can find that on our website at thevbaclink.com. But this review on the course is from Heather. She says, “This course was so helpful especially with helping to educate my husband on the safety of VBAC as he had previously been nervous about my choice. We watched all of the videos already, but will also be reviewing the workbook again right before birth. I highly recommend.”I absolutely love that review from Heather because I feel like we get a lot of these comments about people and their partners really being on board and invested after taking the VBAC prep course with their partners. This course is chock-full of information about the safety of VBAC, and different types of birth situations. It talks about different interventions and hospital policies that you might encounter. It talks about the history of VBAC. It talks about all of the statistics and information. It talks about mental prep, physical prep, and all of those things. There are videos. There is an over 100-page workbook. There are actual links to sources, PDFs of studies, and everything you can even imagine. It is in this course. I also highly recommend it. Anyway, thank you, Heather, for that review. All right, let's get rocking and rolling. I am so ready to hear all about Katie's birth stories. Katie is right here snuggling her sweet little baby with her. I cannot wait. I hope we get to hear some little sweet baby noises. They are kind of my favorite. But Katie, go ahead and take it away, my friend. Katie: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and hopefully share some things that I would have loved to have shared with me. So let me just start from the beginning with my first baby 5 years ago. I was planning to have a birth. I wasn't quite sure what it would look like, but I thought I wanted unmedicated. It was my first baby, and I wanted to labor spontaneously. The labor was long, so 3+ days of labor. It ended in me getting to 10 centimeters and pushing. However, due to fatigue and the multiple interventions that I had and the cascade of interventions, I believe, resulted in a diagnosis of failure to progress so I had a C-section. It was, I would say, disappointing to me not because of anything except that I would have loved to continue on my path of vaginal delivery. That wasn't in the cards with this one for me. Then with my second 2.5 years later– oh, I should also say that I was at a teaching hospital. There were lots of people. They were very pro-intervention. You name it, I had it across those 3 days. So 2.5 years later when I got pregnant, I thought, “Okay. I know I want to attempt a VBAC.” My husband, my partner, was so on board. He got a shirt that said, “You've got this.” He was wearing it all of the time. We watched a ton of positive VBAC birth stories on YouTube. We listened to podcasts like this one. We followed all of the things on social media and prepared with an amazing doula. I went into spontaneous labor again and this time, I was sure I wanted– actually, I should say I had a membrane sweep, and then I went into spontaneous labor. I was sure I didn't want interventions for this one. My doula was on board. My partner was on board. I labored at home for quite a while. I came into the hospital. It was the same hospital. That doctor was not so supportive of me attempting a VBAC, however, another OB had said that because of our family planning, I said, “I think I want more kids,” another OB told that OB, “Hey, let's make it as safe as possible to do what she wants, so let her give it a try.” My doctor was semi-supportive, but I came in. I was 9 centimeters. It was unmedicated. I was in there for less than 3 hours. I pushed the baby out with a bar. I was squatting. They didn't even know the baby was out. In fact, the baby started crying, and it felt like minutes or hours in my mind, but it was just a couple of pushes. My doula said, “Baby out. Baby out.” Everyone rushed because they were so surprised because normally, I think, folks labor on their backs, and I had requested a bar. That was pretty amazing. It was just me and my son doing the thing. It was incredible. I remember that OB who was skeptical said, “You did it. You've changed my mind.” So that was exciting. 3 years later to now, I became pregnant with my third baby. I went in for my anatomy scan at 20 weeks, and the ultrasound tech said, “Baby is breech. No big deal. Tons of babies are breech.” Because I have some other health complications, I guess they deemed me as high risk. I went to multiple ultrasounds, so that means I get to see my baby once a month which also meant I continued to see that baby was breech each time. Each time, they kept saying, “Oh, don't worry. Plenty of time. Plenty of time to turn.” As we approached my due date, I was like, “I feel his head. I don't think he's going to turn.” So they started to let me know what type of breech he was. My baby was frank breech. There are a few different types of breech positions which I didn't know prior to this baby, but now I'm very well-versed in the different breech positions. Frank breech is basically a pike position. The feet are by the head, and his little rump was just hanging out in my pelvis. I was also hoping to birth at a birthing center with my doulas. This was different than that learning hospital that I shared because I just wanted a different experience where they were less pushy with interventions. I knew that with my last birth that they used the term “something pelvis”, but anyway, I was ready to do something different with less people in the room. However, when they found out that I was breech, I was told what I think is the stock option which was, “Hey, if baby stays breech, but don't worry, there's plenty of time and he'll probably turn, but this is what we'll do. We'll try an ECV, and if that doesn't work, we'll schedule your C-section. We'll give you an epidural, try the ECV one more time, and that way, you can go right into your planned C-section. But don't worry, we have time. The baby is going to turn.” I left and was like, “I don't want that. My baby is healthy. I'm healthy. I am on the fence about this plan.” Now, I'm 36 weeks so at 37 weeks, I go in. We have the ECV. They give me the shot to relax my uterus. The ECV is the external cephalic version where they put their hands and try to rotate the baby. It was unsuccessful. So I said, “Can we try again?” She looked at me like, “What?” She said, “We'll try again with that epidural when you schedule your C-section.” I said, “No, no, no, no, no. Can we try again?” This is where, I think, that advocacy and that information and research are so important. She said, “Sure. We can try it again.” We scheduled another ECV. I went back in, and it was also unsuccessful with her. She could tell at this point, I was grieving what I thought was the end of this journey for me, and also not necessarily on board with the protocol they had put in place. We planned. I said, “Hey, can I try a different provider?” I know that you can do up to four ECVS. I'm not suggesting that people do that. I just wanted to make sure that I did everything possible for me and baby to have a vaginal birth. They seemed pretty gung-ho about not delivering unless baby was head down. She said, “Sure. We can do that.” That was also unsuccessful. At this point, the OB said, and I appreciated this. They said, “I feel really uncomfortable delivering a breech baby. I think you should go to our sister hospital in a city away if you are considering breech because we don't have a NICU here.” That felt reasonable to me because I had said to her previously, “I hear you, and I hear that protocol with what you're suggesting. I also feel really healthy, and I will absolutely change course if me or baby's health is in jeopardy, but unless that is imminent, I consider breech a variation of normal,” so I didn't necessarily think that was the rationale for the C-section knowing what that recovery is like and knowing that I had a 5 and a 3-year-old back at home. Julie: Oh, I love that so much. I love that they gave you options, and they admitted that they weren't comfortable with it. So many times, doctors will be like, “We don't do breech here.” They don't tell you that it's because they haven't been trained or they're not comfortable with it or it's not safe, they just tell you that's not the protocol, and they don't offer you other options. I really love that, and I love the conversation you had where you were like, “I understand the risks, but however, this is how I feel.” I think that's a really healthy way to go about it on both sides. So, cool. Kudos to your provider. Katie: Yeah. Then that doctor suggested this. It was in the underground world. It wasn't like, “Go to the next place.” She also suggested, “Why don't you consult with UCSF?” That's the University of California San Francisco. That's maybe an hour and 20 minutes with traffic, and it can be up to 3 hours, but they do breech birth there. She referred me to have a consultation with UCSF to talk about breech birth which they are very comfortable with. The consultation was great. The people were really helpful. They also had a lot of requirements for me to deliver there. Those requirements were things like an anatomy scan to ensure that the head and rump sizes were comparable for safety of baby. They wanted me to do a pelvic pelvimetry MRI. Julie: Pelvimetry? Katie: Yes. They said, “You have a proven pelvis,” which is the word I couldn't remember earlier, but because I'm very short– I'm 4'10”--, they just wanted that in this case. I said, “Sure. I'll do all of the things if this is the place where I know I can make that birth plan with you and we can do it.” Then they said, “We also give you an epidural. You'll birth in a birthing room, then we'll transfer you to an OR. You'll have an epidural, and that's in case anything goes wrong.” I fully understand the risk and the why behind that, but given with my first baby, one of the interventions was the epidural and I labored on my back, I wasn't quite confident that was the way baby and I were going to do this because what I found in my second birth is me and baby working together and moving together was what, I think, was all of the difference in the world for us to be able to meet each other. That gave me a little bit of pause, but nonetheless, I was like, “Okay. They are being upfront with me about all of the things I need to do.” I had the anatomy scan. Rump to head ratio was 1:1. It looked great. They were scheduling this MRI for me to take. Now, keep in mind, I'm 38 weeks pregnant now. The other things I was concerned about, or more my husband I should say, was that San Francisco, like I said, is about an hour and 20 minutes away from me. With traffic, it can be 3+ hours. Julie: Oof. I've driven in San Francisco during traffic and let me tell you, it is a nightmare. Katie: Yeah. My husband was like, “What if you don't get there in time? How are we going to make this work?” These were all pauses that we had around it. Nonetheless, we were on this track and UCSF was so helpful and wonderful. I'm so grateful for my provider for recommending this consult. Then my doula, as well as other providers, started sharing information with me. I want to say it's an underground network of knowledge where people aren't advocating for vaginal birth on the record because either the hospitals don't want to or don't condone it for whatever reason. I guess you can guess the reasons whether it's money or policy or education and patriarchy, but there is definitely a need. Breech babies are born all of the time. They said, “There are three providers at that sister hospital (that my doctor had initially recommended that was 15 minutes away) who are experienced with breech.” I thought, “Okay. In the event of an emergency and I went into labor, that's where I want to go.” They had a NICU. They had all of the things that made me want to feel more at ease knowing that we were doing something new to me and to keep myself and my baby safe. I still told the UCSF doctors, “Don't worry. I know I'm 38 weeks, but my other babies came at 40 weeks and 1 day, so I've got 2 weeks. He's cooking for 2 more weeks.” Then, at 38 weeks– Julie: Third babies, man. Third babies. Katie: Right? At 38 weeks, 4 days, I wake up. I should say, sorry. The UCSF doctor also said one other thing to me. She said, “Please do one more ECV, and this time, do a spinal.” I was like, “Ugh, this sounds awful.” But I understood the rationale. The safest way to come out was head down. I wanted to compromise and do everything in my power to do that. She said, “Because they hadn't done a spinal previously, there's data that shows it's more successful.” She shared all of that research with me, so I requested that from my local doctor. My doctor was like, “We don't usually do this,” but to their credit said, “We will. We will absolutely do it.” Keep in mind, I went in. I was like, “I know that this baby is loving where they are at. They are not moving, but if I don't try it, I'll never know.” Knowing the risks of ECVs, and knowing all of these things, I did do that because it was a request of the hospital that was going to be potentially the hospital where I give birth, so I wanted to make sure to follow all of the things. I do that. It was also unsuccessful. Then, now fast forward to 38 weeks and 4 days, I wake up and it's been a couple of days since that ECV. The spinal they give you is on your back. I wake up and I have some stomach cramps. I thought, “Man, this is strange, but it's probably from the ECV,” because in the past, it did cause some cramping for me. Because I had the spinal, I wondered if perhaps it just was residual. In my past labors, all of my laboring started with my back. I had a little bit of back aching, but it was again, I chalked it up to the spinal and just recovering from that. I went about my day. It was right before Halloween. I'm telling my partner, “Let's carve pumpkins.” My 5-year-old had a soccer game. I'm trying to get him ready, and I keep getting these cramps. They start to be regular. I thought, “Oh.” I'm 90% sure I'm in labor. This labor just felt different. Maybe it was because it was a breech baby. Maybe it was because it was a third labor, who knows? But nonetheless, it took me a while to get there. Maybe I was thinking it wasn't happening and willing that 40-week mark. Nonetheless, I was laboring. I texted my doula, and I'm timing my contractions. We had agreed that she would come over earlier this time because the baby was breech. All of the doctors said, “Labor at home. Come in during active labor.” We agreed that I would come in earlier than I did last time because of the circumstances. She comes over. She says, “Where I'm laboring, if the contractions are feeling intense, however, I can talk and laugh in between them,” so we agreed that I might be 5 centimeters. I just started to think, “I've got to lie down. I feel super tired. I had this ECV. I want to keep my energy up,” thinking this could be a long labor. Let me eat something. Then she says, “Just go. Sit on the toilet because your body does something different.” I do that. It's 1:00 in the afternoon now, and my water breaks. My husband was packing the bags to get to the hospital thinking, “Where do we go? Do we go to UCSF? Do we go to that sister hospital?” I say, “My water is broken.” I have another contraction. She's watching it. She was like, “We've got to–”, and I started to feel nauseous which are all signs of labor. Julie: Good signs. Katie: Yes, so she was like, “Let's go. Let's go now.” We get in the car. I think this is funny. It's a little on the side, but my husband had set up the car seat right behind me. I'm laboring. I'm definitely contracting and trying to retract my seat. There is this car seat, so I just remember picking it up and tossing it across the side saying, “Why would you set this up here?” He's looking at me, “Oh, you are really in labor. This is clear.” I'm trying to lay down. He has the GPS set. I am in the car. We get going. It's now between 1:00 and 2:00 on a Saturday. There is a ton of traffic and construction. I'm looking at the GPS and I see 25 minutes to the sister hospital, and to San Francisco was 3 hours. We don't have 3 hours. My doula says, “Where are we going?” I say, “That sister hospital. Let's go.” I also happen to know that there are three doctors there through that grapevine and underground network who are experience at delivering breech babies there, so I thought the odds of me having one of them would be beneficial. I would much rather have had conversations with all of them, but I didn't plan to go there thinking I was going to go to UCSF. We get in the car and are driving in this traffic. I'm just looking at the GPS and at the time ticking down. I'm really quiet which was also strange because with my other births, I was super vocal. My husband and I were thinking, “I'm in labor, but maybe I'm just not as far along, even though my water broke.” I've never been quiet. I was dead silent through this whole thing just staring at this GPS. Then all of a sudden, we're going on a bridge called the Causeway and I looked at him, and I said, “I have to push right now.” Julie: No. Katie: He looks at me and says, “No,” which is not very much– he's a very supportive person. What he meant by this was that we didn't come this far to get this far. We're going to get to this hospital. We are driving, and I just remember internally that I was so quiet going inward. I was talking with my baby, talking with myself and saying, “Okay. We've got to get to the hospital. We didn't come this far to get this far. I'm not having a baby breech unassisted delivery.” That was not something that I was comfortable with. We get off the off-ramp, and we're finding the patient drop-off. I'm contracting and I see the sign, and my husband drives right by it. I look at him right after I contract and I say, “You drove right by the patient drop-off. You have to put on hazards. I have to get out now. I have to push.” He's like, “I can't. We're parking.” So he parked the car, and I was like, “What do you want me to do?” He says, “We've got to walk.” Keep in mind, the parking lot where he went is not right next door. It's a block and a half or two blocks away.Julie: No way.Katie: I just was like, “I can't do this. I can't do this.” He says, “Yes, you can. Yes, you can. You have got this.” So I was like, “Okay. I've got this.” I get up, and I walk. When I start contracting, I'm walking down this busy street. I said, “I have to poop.” I had this big contraction, and I think I possibly poop. I'm just looking at these cars thinking, “Why won't somebody stop and help me?” That's when I channeled back to this idea, at the end of the day, It's just you and your baby. You are the team. I contract. We are going. We finally get to the hospital. I have another contraction. I say, “Run in and tell them to help.” He does. I'm holding on to the railing. This lovely woman with her family sees me. She tells her 13-year-old son, “Get her!” I was standing by myself, definitely in labor.” She says, “Get her a wheelchair!” This amazing 13-year-old does just that as my husband runs back. He gets me this wheelchair. I'm sitting in it, but I can't sit down. Again, I think it's because I've had this bowel movement and maybe I'm in transition. I don't know. We get up and pass security, so security is yelling at us. My husband was like, “I've got to go. We've got to go.” We got to L&D and came in. This amazing nurse midwife welcomes us. I don't know if she saw me not sitting down all of the way in my wheelchair or what, but she yells, “Get her a room right now.” She says, “We're going to deliver this baby.” I say, “My baby is breech. Can you help?”She says, “Call this doctor.” My heart is so relieved because this is one of those three experienced doctors who I know is comfortable with breech delivering. He scrubs out of a C-section, I guess. She helps me take off my pants, and then realizes what I thought was poop was really– it's called rumping as a breech instead of crowning. She was like, “Change of plans. Get on all fours.” I just started laboring. The doctor comes in scrubbed out of that C-section. I know that the nurses are saying, “You're doing great. You're going to meet your baby,” and all of the things that are so wonderful. I couldn't speak more highly of the people in that room at that point. My doula joined us because it took her a minute to find us in all of the mayhem. He tells my partner, “Please make sure she goes on her back.” I had this vision of doing breech without borders on your hands and knees, but given that this doctor was very experienced with breech delivery through this underground network of knowledge, I was like, “Okay. We didn't come this far to get this far. I'll do whatever you want. Let's just see this baby.” I turn around after, my husband said, my baby was halfway out. He sees the legs drop which again, in a frank breech position, that happens. You see the rump, and then you see the back and the legs drop. He sees the rest of the body come out as I'm laboring on my back which I didn't do with my first. I wasn't actually, I didn't know if that was something my body was down for. But here I was delivering this breech baby. Of course, I should have known. Women are amazing. We do amazing things, and our bodies are built for this work. I labored, and then I felt him come out completely. I held my breath for a second because what I do know, and excuse me if this statistic isn't 100% accurate, but my understanding is that 1 out of 7 babies born head down might need resuscitation, but 1 out of 3 babies born breech might need resuscitation. So one of the things I was pausing for at this moment was to hear this sweet baby's voice, and so I just start hearing crying immediately. They tell me that his APGAR score was 9/8 which was exactly the same as my first VBAC. Julie: That's great!Katie: Yeah. They were like, “Baby is great. Baby is healthy.” They put him on me. I was trying to feed, but my cord was short, so low and behold, I have a feeling that the reason he was not interested in turning is because my cord was kind of short. He just was sitting fine where he was at with my posterior placenta up high. He and I sat and met each other. We celebrated. The doctor was so funny. He said, “You keep it interesting. You've had every kind of birth you could possibly have.” Julie: You keep it interesting. Katie: Yeah. Every type of birth you could possibly have. The nurses came in after. They said they wanted to come in and watch because they don't see this. They said, “This is amazing. We wanted to respect your privacy.” But they were so supportive of the whole thing. I just felt elated to have the people in the room and around me who believed in me and my baby as much as we believed in us to make it happen. I should say that I came in at 2:10 to this hospital. I delivered at 2:24. When I say it was fast and this was going quickly when all of those things happened, I wouldn't recommend any of those things. However, I think that advocacy and all of those things like knowing all of the data made me feel prepared to do that. That's my breech delivery story. Julie: I absolutely love that. I love that. I was like, “Aw, dang. Too bad she didn't have her baby in the car.” No, I mean that would not have been ideal for you, but it is a dream birth of mine. I mean, I would have loved to have my own baby in the car. It would have been amazing. I love the stories. One day, I dream of documenting a car delivery, but alas, here I am still waiting. But it's fine. Here's the cool thing. I really love how you navigated your birth. You sought out all of your options. You made a choice that you were comfortable with. You heard the risks that the doctors were telling you about. You acknowledged them, but you also stood up for yourself and your plan. I feel like when you can have that mutual respect where you can trust your provider and your provider can trust you, I feel like that's a great place to be. I love how you adapted and changed plans when needed, but you still stood firm for the things that you wanted. It doesn't always work out like that when you have to change plans, but I love that you had the plan and you navigated it with the twists and turns and all of the things that come with the unpredictabilities of birth. I love how you did all of that. I think it's really important and necessary to have strong opinions about how you want to birth. Like I said before, it doesn't always mean that the strong opinions that you have are going to hold true about what you actually end up getting. I think that the value in having those strong opinions about birth is the things that you learn along the way and the things that enable you to navigate through those changes of plans and things like that. I think that's really, really important for us to be able to have and do and be flexible. I do have a few different blog articles on our website related to breech babies. Now, there's one that is just recently published. It was a few months ago. Well, maybe it will almost be a year ago by the time this episode airs. It talks a lot about ECVs, the external cephalic version, in order to try and manually flip a breech baby. It talks about what ACOG recommends and ACOG's stance on it, things you can do, who is right for it, what may exclude you from having an ECV or attempting one and all of those things. It talks about the safety for VBAC and how it's performed, what it feels like, and all of those things. If you ever want to know about ECV, we have a blog for you. It's called ECV and VBAC: What you Need to Know. It goes into all of that stuff. I definitely recommend looking into it because like we said before, you don't really know your options until you have them, and the more information you have in your arsenal, the easier it's going to be for you to navigate those things. Basically, ECVs are pretty safe for most people. They have a success rate of 60% which is a really cool success rate. It's higher than 50%. You're more likely for it to work than not. Sometimes babies are breech for a reason, and they need to stay that way for some reason. There are really only a few things that exclude you which is excessive vaginal bleeding, placenta previa or accreta, if you have really low levels of amniotic fluid, fetal heart rate issues, if your water's already been born, sometimes providers won't do it that way, or if you have twins or multiples, I think that excludes you. It's listed here, and it makes sense. We've got lots of babies tangled up in there. It's absolutely safe for VBAC as well. We also have a couple more blogs about why babies go breech and some things that you can do about it. I'm sure, Katie, you probably tried all of these things, all of the Spinning Babies protocols, all of the forward-leaning inversions and things like that too that can help. There's another article in here about how to turn your breech baby– 8 ways to flip your baby. Like we said, sometimes babies are breech for a reason and they do not want to turn. I'm just really looking forward to the day where breech can be just a variation of normal again. The biggest problem is that our providers are not learning how to deliver breech babies. It does take a different skill in order to do that. You have to be really hands-off. You have to watch for certain things and depending on the type of breech, there are different techniques that you would use. Those techniques are not being taught. Kudos to your original provider who admitted that they were not comfortable or did not have the knowledge to feel comfortable in delivering a breech baby. I'm excited there are organizations called Reteach Breech, Breech Without Borders, and Dr. Stu. If you know Dr. Stu, he is leading a great mission to bring breech back so that women can have options for delivering their breech babies. So what happens if you don't know your baby is breech and your baby is delivered foot first? You can't just stop and go for a C-section right then. It's impossible. So to deliver breech babies safely no matter the circumstances, the knowledge there is important. I'm hoping that one day, that can be an option for anybody if they want that. All right, Katie, I'm so glad that you joined me today. It was so great hearing your story. I love how it all went. I do not pity you having to drive in San Francisco at traffic time. Yeah. I'm glad everything worked out. Katie: We ended up going to this other hospital closer. Julie: Yeah, yeah. But I mean just ever, not even in labor. Just ever. Katie: Yes. Yes. Julie: All right, Katie. Before we sign off, will you tell me, what is your best piece of advice for somebody preparing for a VBAC?Katie: Oh, I think it is so important to do two things. One, educate yourself and surround yourself around folks who are down with that education and believing in you and baby. What I mean by that is knowing what's happening so you can make those important decisions. You understand what consent looks like. You understand those risks. You understand all of the tips and techniques like in this case of breech and turning that baby, and then making sure that you also are advocating and you have people around you who are advocating, but not so stuck on that that you get stuck. You want to do what's best for you and the baby, but as you said, breech is a variation of normal. I think that being around people who are supportive of you, they don't necessarily have to agree with you, but they are working with you, is just so important to empower you because at the end of the day, it's you and baby doing the thing. People who believe in you as much as you believe in yourself and you believe in your baby are so important to get to that finish line in labor. Julie: Yes. I absolutely love that. You have to have people who believe in you and who are on your side and who will support you even if they don't necessarily understand your decisions. They trust you to make those decisions because that is a huge deal. Katie: And give you the information so that if the information you have is not full or complete, you can reevaluate. You don't know what you don't know until you know. I just think that you need to make sure you take it all in if you can unless you don't know your baby is breech and you find out when you are delivering and you make that snap decision, and it'll be great. Julie: Yes. No, I love that. There's something about people bringing you information especially in a respectful way because I feel like in today's world, when people disagree with others, it's very aggressive and condescending and judgmental. I think it's important that we can disagree respectfully but also bring information if you are concerned or if you have another point of view in a respectful way as well. I think it's received a lot better and I think that's where we can really bring that true change and sway people's opinions. It's if we do that in a respectful and understanding way. Yeah, I appreciate that. Good point, Katie. That was awesome. Okay, well thank you so much for sharing your story with me today. I cannot wait for the whole world to hear it. Katie: Thanks so much for allowing me the space to do it. I hope that women are able to explore their options and do what's right for them and their baby and their families. Julie: Yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Happy New Year, Women of Strength! Meagan and Julie share an exciting announcement about the podcast that you don't want to miss. While they chat about topics to look forward to this year, they also jump right in and share stats about cervical checks and duration between pregnancies. We can't wait to help you prepare for your VBAC this year!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Ready? Meagan: Happy New– Julie: Oh, are we supposed to say it together? Oh, sorry. Okay, I'm ready. Let's go again. Meagan: No, you were just saying okay, but let's do it together. Okay, ready? Remember I did this last time? Julie: Okay, 1, 2, 3– Meagan and Julie: Happy New Year!Julie: No, it was not right. Meagan: Well, we're going to leave it. You guys, we've been trying to say Happy New Year at the same time. There is a delay, I'm sure, on both sides, but Happy New Year, you guys. Welcome to The VBAC Link. It is 2025, and we are excited for this year. Oh my goodness. Obviously, you have probably caught on that there is another voice with me today. Julie: Hello. Meagan: I have Julie. You guys, I brought Julie on today because we have a special announcement. I didn't let her get away for too long. I didn't want her to go. I couldn't. If you haven't noticed, I've been bringing her on. I'm like, “Can you do this episode with me? Do you want to do this episode with me? Do you want to do this episode with me?”And now, at least for the next little bit, she's going to be doing her own episodes. She is helping me out. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: We have been doing two episodes a week for almost a year now, and it's a lot. It's a lot. Julie: You have been such a champ. Meagan: Oh my goodness. So that's what we've been up to. I decided that Julie needed to help me. She was so gracious to say, “Yeah, I'll do it.” Get this, you guys. She was nervous the first time. Julie: I was like, “I don't know what I'm doing.”Meagan: But she totally does know what she's doing. But yeah, so you will be hearing every so often Julie's voice solo. She is going to be hosting the show solo, so you will be hearing a little bit of a new intro with her and I where we are both talking so you don't get confused, but I don't think it is very confusing. Julie has been with us since the very beginning because her and I created the company. It's been so fun to have her here, so thank you, Julie, for helping me out. Julie: You are always welcome. It's always a pleasure. Meagan: I'm trying to think. I want to talk about 2025 and some things that we have coming up as far as stories go. As a reminder, if you have not subscribed to the show, please do so. As you subscribe, it will send you the episodes weekly. Right now, like I said, we are doing two a week, so soak it all up. We have so many great stories. We have stories from OB/GYNs. They are doing Q&As. We have polyhydramnios. Julie: Polyhydramnios. Meagan: Yes. I always want to say dramnios. We are going to be talking about that because we have a lot of people who have been asking about more unique things. Poly is not necessarily unique, but it's not talked about, so we are going to talk about the high fluid, low fluid, unsupportive providers, and if you have been with us for a while, the biggest thing that we talk about is supportive providers. Julie: Mhmm.Meagan: Maybe it's not the biggest, but it's one of the biggest. We talk about finding a supportive provider all of the time. It is so important. Then we've got vaginal birth after multiple Cesarean, twin births, gestational diabetes, PROM– if you're new to that one, that is premature rupture of membranes meaning that the waters break, but labor doesn't quite kick in. Whave else do we have? We actually are going to do some re-airing. We are going to rebroadcast some of our older episodes that we just think are gems and wonderful or have connections with people like Ali Levine. She came back on recently and we want to bring back her episode. Dr. Stu– just some really great episodes from the past and thinking about how long ago that was, Julie– Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: As I've been going through these podcasts, holy cow. Some of these are in our 70's or there was actually one that was out 17th episode or something like that. Julie: We need to re-air the dad's episode. Do you remember that one time when we had all of those dads on? Meagan: Yes. Julie: That was so good. Meagan: That was so good. It was a lot of fun. Julie: You need to put that in a spot. It was so good. I remember, I can just be taken back to us in the studio recording and calling each of these dads. It was so cool. Meagan: It was. It was really fun to hear their take on it and their opinion of doulas, their opinion of VBAC, their opinion of birth and how they were feeling going into birth, and how they felt when their wives were like, “Hey, I want to do this.” Yeah. Do you know what? That's for sure. We will make sure that is re-aired as well because I do know that we get people saying, “Are there any episodes that can help my partner or my husband?” because they want to really learn how to get the support for them or help them understand why. Or Lynn. Guys, there are so many of these past episodes that we will be bringing back. Julie: Lynn's episode was so great. Meagan: That was so great. We're going to be having home births. Forceps– VBAC after forceps or failure to progress or failure to descend or big baby. We've got so many great things coming this year, so I'm really, really excited. I also wanted to share more about what we've going on the blog. We have had weekly blogs, so if you haven't already subscribed to our email list, go over to thevbaclink.com and subscribe. We send out weekly emails filled with tips or recent episodes. We have a lot of questions in The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. We see some repetitive questions in there, so we respond to those via email. Those are really good. We've got cervical checks. When is it good to do a cervical check? When is it not good? Julie: Umm, never? Meagan: When is it not good to do a cervical check? When are they really necessary? What do they tell us? We're going to be diving into that. We have a blog about that. Do you want to talk about that for a second, Julie? Let's talk about that. Julie: Okay. I understand that there is nuance. That's the thing about birth. There is nuance with everything. There is context with everything. It just reminds me of the recent election and things like that while we are recording. There are all of these one-liners are being thrown around on both sides. One sentence can be taken out of context in big ways when you don't have the context surrounding the sentence. For both sides, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I'm sorry if that's triggering for anybody. I know there are a lot of people upset right now. But the same thing with cervical checks. Isn't that true with all of life? All of life, all of birth, and all of VBAC, there is nuance and context that's important. I would say that most of the time, most of the time, cervical checks are not necessary. They only tell us where you've been. They don't tell us where you're going. They are not a predictor of anything. I've had clients get to 8 centimeters and not have a baby for 14 hours. No kidding. I've had clients push for 10 hours. I've had people hang out at 5 centimeters for weeks, then go into labor and have the baby super fast and also super slow. It doesn't tell us anything. However, there are times when it might be helpful. I use that really, really carefully because it can only give us so much information. I feel like sometimes the cervix can swell if you've been in labor for a really long time, or if the baby is in a bad position, so if labor has slowed or hasn't been progressing as much as expected– and I use that term very loosely as well. There might be a suspicion for cervical swelling. Having a cervical check can confirm that, and having a swollen cervix will change the direction of your care. I would say that maybe an important question to ask– and this is a good question for any part of your care– is, “How will this procedure, exam, intervention, etc. influence my care moving forward?” Because if it's not going to influence your care moving forward at all, then is it necessary? Meagan: Why do it?Julie: Right? So, a swollen cervix, maybe checking baby's position. You can tell if baby's low enough. You can see if their head is coming asynclitic or with a different type of presentation. Again, with a suspicion that it might be affecting labor's progress.Meagan: You can check if they are asynclitic. Julie: But, how would your care change if you find out that baby is asynclitic? What would you do if that is the result of the cervical check? If the answer is nothing, then I don't know. But also knowing that baby's position or knowing that you have a swollen cervix, there are things that you can do to help labor progress in the case of a malpositioned baby or for a swollen cervix. First of all, back off on Pitocin or take some Benadryl or things like that that can help with those things. But honestly, I think most of the time, cervical checks are another way for the system to chart and keep records, that they are doing their job, that things are happening normally (in air quotes, “normally”) so they can have their backs covered. It's really funny. There are other ways to tell baby's position. There are other ways to notice. Midwives, especially out-of-hospital midwives know all of these things. They can gather all of this data without cervical checks, without continous monitoring, and all of that stuff. But in the hospital setting, they can literally sit at a desk and watch you on the strip. That's the only way they know how to get information. They don't know how to palpate the belly. They aren't as familar with– I mean, probably nurses more so than OBs. Meagan: Patterns. Julie: Right? Labor patterns, the sounds, how mom is moving her body and things like that. Those are all things that you can use to tell where a laboring person is at in their labor without having to do cervical checks. But anyway, that was a long little tangent. Meagan: No, that's good. I love that you are pointing that out. Is it going to change your care? If you are being induced, a lot of times, they are going to want to do a cervical exam. You may want a cervical exam as well so you can determine what induction method is going to best fit your induction. Julie: Yeah, that's true. Meagan: Like starting that, but even before labor, I want to point out that when it comes to cervical exams, I see it time and time again within the community, within Instagram, within Utah here– we have birth forums here in Utah– I see it all of the time. “I am 38 weeks. I got checked to day. I am not dilated. It's not going to happen. My provider is telling me that my body probably doesn't know how to go into labor and that I should be induced or that my chances of going into labor by 40 weeks (that's a whole other conversation) is low because I'm not dilated yet at 38 weeks,” or they are the opposite and they are like, “I feel like I can't do anything because I'm walking around at 6 centimeters.”Then they don't go into labor. Julie: Baby will come right away as soon as labor starts. Meagan: Yeah, or the person who has been walking around at 38 weeks, 39 weeks, 40 weeks, 40.5 weeks at 0 centimeters has their baby before the person who has been walking around at 6 centimeters. It really doesn't tell you a whole lot other than where you are in that very minute and second that you are checked. Now, if it is something that is going to impact your care, that is something to consider. Also, if it's something that's going to impact your mental health, usually it's going to be negatively. Sometimes, it's positive, but I feel like we get these numbers in our head, and then we get them checked and– Julie: You get stuck on it, yeah. Meagan: You get stuck on it which is normal because of the way that we have been taught out in the birth world. Think about it also mentally. Is a cervical exam in this very moment to tell you where you are right now worth messing up your mental space? Maybe. Maybe not. That's a very personal opinion. But really, it's so important to know that cervical exams really just tell you where you are right now. Not where you're going to be, not where you're going to get– Julie: And not how fast you're going to get there either. I do not trust babies. I always say that. I do not trust babies. Meagan: You don't trust babies? Julie: They have a mind of their own. They are so unpredictable. Yeah, I don't trust them. I'll trust them after they are born, for sure. But before, no way dude. They trick me all of the time. I really appreciate how you brought up the induction thing because I feel like a cervical check at the beginning of an induction and after a certain amount of time that the induction is started is helpful information because it tells you where you started from. It tells you if the induction methods that they are using are working. I feel like that's helpful to know because you don't want to sit there with an induction method forever if it's not working. I feel like also, why the induction is being recommended is important too. If baby needs to come out fast because something is seriously wrong, then more frequent cervical checks or a more aggressive induction may be needed. But if it's something that you can wait a few days for, then is the induction really necessary. But that's really the context there too. Context and nuance, man. Meagan: Yep. I also think really quickly before we get off of cervical exams that if you are being induced, a cervical exam to assess if you are even in a good spot to induce, assuming that it is not an emergent situation where we have to have this baby out right now. You are like, “I want to get induced,” then you are maybe half a centimeter. Julie: The BISHOP score, yeah. You are low and closed and hard. Meagan: You're maybe 40% effaced. You're really posterior. You guys, that might be a really good indicator that it's not time to have a baby.Julie: Right. Meagan: There we go. Okay, so other things on the blog– preparing for your VBAC. We talk about that a lot. We also talk about that in our course, on the podcast, in the community, on Instagram, and on Facebook. That's a daily chat. We have blogs on that. Our favorite prenatal– you guys have heard us talk about Needed now for over a year. We love them. We truly, truly believe in their product, so we do have blogs on prenatal nutrition and prenatal care. What food, what drinks, and what prenatal you should take. Then recovering from a C-section– I think a lot of people don't realize that our community also has a whole C-section umbrella where we understand that there are a lot of different scenarios. Some may not choose a VBAC which is also a blog on how to choose between a VBAC and a Cesarean. They might not choose a VBAC or they might go for a VBAC and it ends in a repeat Cesarean, or they opt for an elective Cesarean. These are situations that lead to recovering from a Cesarean. We have blogs and a section in our course, and then we even have a VBAC– not a VBAC. Oh my gosh. I can't get Facebook and VBAC together. We have a CBAC Facebook group as well called The CBAC Link Community, so if you are somebody who is not sure or you maybe had a Cesarean or you are opting for a Cesarean, that might be a really great community for you. I believe that it's an incredible community. Let's see, the length between pregnancies is one. Do you want to talk about that?Julie: Oh my gosh. I see this so much. Meagan: Daily. Julie: People are asking, “How long should I wait? I want to have the best chances of a VBAC. How long should I wait before getting pregnant?” Or, “My doctor said I have to have 18 months between births and I will only be 17 months between births so it excludes me from VBAC.” Meagan: Well, and it gets confusing. Julie: Yes. It does get confusing. Meagan: Because is it between or is it conception? What is it? Julie: Right. Is it between births? Is it between conception? Is it from birth to conception? Birth to birth? Conception to conception? I don't think it's conception to conception, but thing is that everybody will have their thing. I hear it really commonly 18 months birth to birth. I hear 2 months birth to birth quite a bit. Meagan: 2 months? Julie: Sorry, 12 months. Meagan: I was like 2? I've never heard that one. Julie: 12 months birth to birth. Oh man. Meagan: 24 months. Julie: I need some caffeine. 2 years, not 2 months. 2 years between births. Meagan: 24 months. Julie: There are a whole bunch of recommendations. Here are the facts about it. The jury is still out about what is the most optimal time. There is one study. There are three credible studies that we link in our blog. There are three credible studies. One says that after 6 months, there's no increased risk of uterine rupture. So 6 months between– I'm sorry. 6 months from birth to conception. Meagan: Birth to conception. Julie: So that would be 15 months from birth to birth. There's another study that says 18 months from birth to birth, and there's another study that says 2 years from birth to birth. These are all credible studies. So, who knows? Somewhere between 15 months to 2 years. I know that the general recommendation for pregnancies just for your body– this is not talking about uterine rupture– to return to its– I wouldn't say pre-pregnancy state because you just don't really get back there, but for your body to be fully healed from pregnancy is a year after birth. From a year from birth to conception is the general recommendation. But we know that there is such a wide variety of stories. There is a lot of context involved. There are providers who are going to support you no matter your length. This is circling back to provider choice and why it's so important. If one provider says, “No,” and they want 2 years from birth to birth, then bye Felicia. Go find another provider because there is someone who is going to support you. There is someone who is going to do it rather than be like, “Oh, well, we will just let you try.” They are going to support you and be like, “Yeah. Here are the risks. Here is what I'm willing to do, and let's go for it.” I think that's really important as well. Meagan: Yeah, this is probably one of the most common questions. Sorry, guys. I was muted and chatting. It's one of the most common questions, and like she said, there are multiple studies out there. It's kind of a complicated answer because it could vary. Overall, the general studies out there are anywhere between 18 to 24 months. 24 months being what they are showing is probably the most ideal between birth to birth. A lot of people out there still think that it's birth to conception, so they have to wait 2 years before even trying to get pregnant. Then I mean, I got a message the other day from someone. They were like, “Hey, our hospital policy,” which I thought was interesting– not that she was saying this, but that it was a policy. “Our hospital policy is that if I conceive sooner than 9 months after a Cesarean, they will not accept me.” Julie: Boom. Go find another hospital. Meagan: I was like, okay. That's weird. Julie: I know. Meagan: And that's 9 months, so that would be 18 months from birth to birth. Julie: Right. Meagan: Then you can go to another provider, and they're different. This is my biggest takeaway with this. Look at the studies. We have them in our blog. They're there. Look at them. Tune into your intuition. What do you need for your family? What do you want for your family? What feels right for you? Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I mean, we have many people who have had VBACs before the 18th-month mark. Aren't you 15 months? Julie: No, mine was 23 months birth to birth. Meagan: Oh, birth to birth. Okay. I thought you were a little sooner. Julie: I conceived, what was that? Meagan: Mine was 22 and 23. I was a 22 and then my other one was 23, I think. It was something like that. It was right around 2 years. Tune into what it is. Yes, we say this, and someone has said, “Well, yeah. People have done it, but that's not what's recommended.” Okay, that's true. Julie: Yeah, recommended by who? Recommended by who? Because like I said, three different studies have three different recommendations. What does ACOG say? I don't think ACOG even has an official recommendation do they? Meagan: My mind says 24 months. Julie: I think they say something like a pregnancy window doesn't automatically exclude somebody from having a VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. You guys, we have that. We also have stories coming up with shorter durations. We have epidural blogs, and how to choose if you want an epidural or not, and then what happens when an epidural comes into play. Maybe I need caffeine too. I can't even speak. But when they come into play, and so many facts, stats, and stories on the blog and on the podcast. You guys, it's going to be a great year. It's 2025. I'm excited. I'm excited to have you on, Julie. It's going to be so great. I'm excited to bring some of our really old, dusty episodes back to life. Julie: Polish them up. Meagan: Yeah. I'm really excited about that. And then some of the weeks, we've been doing this since October, I think, we've got some specialty weeks where it's VBAC after multiple Cesarean week, and you'll have two back to back. We might have some weeks like that in there that have similar stories so you can binge a couple in a row that are something you are specifically looking for. Okay, as a reminder, we are always looking for a review. Before I let you go, you can go to Google at “The VBAC Link”. You can go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I don't know about Google Play. I actually don't know that because I don't have it. Julie: I don't think Google Play has podcasts anymore. But also, you can't rate it on Spotify. Meagan: You can rate it, but you can't review it. Julie: Oh, yeah. You can rate it, so you can give it 5 stars. That's right. Meagan: If you guys wouldn't mind, give us a review. If you can do a written review, that's great. Honestly, you can do stars then go somewhere else and do a written review. We love your reviews. They truly help. I know I've said this time and time again, but they help other Women of Strength find this podcast, find these inspiring stories, and find the faith and the empowerment and the education that they need and deserve. Thank you guys for sticking with us. Happy New Year again, and we will see you soon. Julie: Bye!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We can't believe we have arrived at the last episode of 2024! This year has brought so many incredible and empowering births. We loved hearing how each of you fought for your birth goals, magnified your voices, and showed your strength. In today's episode, Meagan sums up The VBAC Link's 2024 achievements and shares some of the exciting things she has in store for 2025. The VBAC Link Supportive Provider ListThe VBAC Link Doula DirectoryHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey guys, it's Meagan. Guess what? Today is our last 2024 episode. I cannot believe it is the end of the year. I absolutely cannot believe it. It feels like just yesterday that we started doing two episodes a week, and here we are 11 months later. We started in February. You guys, it has been such a great year. We have had so many incredible episodes from placental abruption, faith over fear, breech VBACs, post-dates, what hospital policies mean,and National Midwifery Week. One of my favorites, well actually, two of my favorites because he came on twice, was Dr. Fox. We had Dr. Fox a couple of times. We've had doula tips from VBAC episodes. We've had some fun episodes where we've had some VBAC Link-certified doulas as cohosts. Oh my gosh, so many great things. I don't know if you noticed, but in October, we started doing a themed week. Every two episodes in one month was a theme. For October, we had midwifery. It was National Midwifery Week so we talked about midwives and the stats about midwives. We had CNM Paige come on with our very own Lily who talked more about midwifery care, what does it look like, how to choose, can a midwife support VBAC, and all of that fun, fun stuff. And then in November, it was Veteran's Day so we had some military mamas on there and more about how to navigate that. We talked a little bit about Tricare and tips about navigating birth as a servicemember or as a significant other. That was really, really fun.This month, we touched on uterine abnormalities. We had Flannery talking about her bicornuate uterus and more about specific types of uteruses and what that means. It's so weird to think, but there are different types of uteruses, you guys. That doesn't mean that if you have a different type of uterus that you can't VBAC. It may mean that you may be faced with some challenges like a breech baby or something like that, but we wanted to share more about that because that's not talked about. But it's not going to stop. We have got that coming all year. 2025 is going to have a lot of really fun, specific episodes. The reason why I did this is because I wanted to have a whole week in two episodes where people could come and just binge two specific episodes that they may be looking for. We have a lot of people writing in saying, “Hey, I'm looking for VBAC after multiple Cesareans. Hey, I'm looking for breech stories. Hey, I would like to hear more healing CBAC stories or planned Cesarean stories.” We wanted to have it so they could just do two episodes back to back.Then of course, there are episodes throughout the whole podcast that we have that you can go back and find, but this way, you can find it in one week, two episodes back to back. We've got things like CBAC coming, VBAC after multiple Cesareans. We've got breech. We've got OB week. That's going to be fun. Oh man, I'm trying to think. So many other things. Special scars. We have a special scars month. We are just going to have months where it's typically going to be that second week where it will be a specific theme and topic. Don't forget to check that out coming up in 2025. Like I said, we started that up in October. Okay, so some other really fun and exciting things coming up, I do have a surprise for you, but unfortunately, you're going to have to wait until 2025. I'm really excited for this series. Yeah. It's going to be so good. Make sure to come back next week in 2025 to learn more about a surprise that I have coming your way. Then, in addition to that surprise and our themed weeks, I'm actually going to be rebroadcasting some of our old episodes. As you know, we are getting up there. We are at 365 episodes today which is so dang exciting. I cannot thank you guys enough for continuing to support this podcast, for coming back, listening, downloading these episodes, and just being here with us. We see you in our community on Facebook. We see you on Instagram. We see you downloading and listening. We are getting messages in regards to these stories and how much they are connecting with people.You guys, these stories are incredible. Just a reminder also, we are always accepting submissions. Now, we can't get to every submission because we do get a lot of submissions which is so fun to go through. We share them on our social media if we can't sometimes share them on the podcast, but please, if you have a story that you would like to submit and share them with other Women of Strength who are coming after you and are wanting to hear these empowering messages, go to thevbaclink.com/share, I believe, and submit your podcast story. Okay, going back. We are rebroadcasting episodes. I have gone back and listened to probably 10 or 12 episodes. Some of our really, really amazing episodes, and I've found some nuggets after re-listening that I'm pulling through and giving tips. We're going to have extra tips, extra links, and also if there have been updated things or updated studies from 2018 that have now been updated, we want to make sure that we freshen up these episodes and bring them back to more recent episodes. If you have a favorite episode that you would like to hear rebroadcasted or one that you listen to on repeat, will you let us know? Email us at info@thevbaclink.com and let us know what your favorite episode is and why, or if you are looking for some more information or want us to elaborate more on a topic that maybe we have discussed but didn't go too far into detail that I can maybe go into deeper detail about. Okay, I'm trying to think, you guys. We've had so many amazing things this year. Blogs– we have been pumping out blogs like crazy. There are so many things from preparing for your VBAC, 5 things to do before you get pregnant, recovering from a Cesarean birth. You guys, if you've been with us for a while, you know we absolutely love and adore Needed. We wholeheartedly love and trust everything they produce. We love them. They have really been so gracious to offer us a wonderful 20% off discount code, so don't forget that. That is still valid. You can go to thisisneeded.com and type in VBAC20 and get 20% off your order. We talk more about why prenatal nutrition matters. We talk about creating your ideal hospital environment. We talk about C-section scar massage and why it's important. That is a big one that isn't talked about enough. We talk about hiring doulas, things to put on your registry, more about red raspberry leaf tea. We talk about heartburn, Tums, and also what else Tums can do to help us in our VBAC. So many things. We talk about positions and using the ball. Oh my gosh, just so many incredible things. We've got so many blogs coming at thevbaclink.com/blogs so make sure to check out the blog and learn more about these topics. Membrane sweeps, VBAC after multiple Cesareans, uterine rupture, if you're looking for that VBAC provider, definitely check out that blog about how to find out if you need to switch your provider. Then of course, we have our VBAC course. You guys, I love our course so much. Another big reason why we are going to be re-airing our episodes is so that we can keep updating our course. Birth in general is updating all of the time. This course– Julie and I created it a long time ago, and it is my baby. I am so excited for this course because I have seen so many people get the information that they need, feel more empowered and equipped to have a VBAC, then we actually have a birth worker course. The birth worker course is to certify VBAC doulas, our birth workers, and it is accredited. It is 8 ICEA credits, so if you have a doula that hasn't been in our course yet,  maybe suggest that to them or if you are a birth worker listening, I highly suggest it. We have a VBAC Link Doula directory, so if you are looking for a doula or, like I said, you are a birth worker and you want to be found, we want to help you be found. You can find a doula at thevbaclink.com/findadoula, and if you are a birth worker, you can check out your area. California, I know needs more doulas. Texas, there are a lot of states that need more doulas. We would love to add you to your family.Okay, you guys. I'm trying to think what else. Oh my gosh. I could not leave without saying this. This year, we updated our provider list. It is on Instagram. You can go the The VBAC Link at Instagram. Click on our linktree in our bio, and it is the top one to find a supportive provider in your area. Now, if you have a provider that should be on this list or if you are a provider and wantt o be on this list, please email us at info@thevbaclink.com or you can email us on Instagram so we can get your provider listed. We really need providers who accept VBAC after multiple Cesareans, breech VBAC, and who are just VBAC supportive in general. You guys, it is so stinking silly and stupid how hard it is to sometimes find a provider. Please check out that form. If your provider is supportive, please, please, please let us know so we can get them listed. Okay, you guys, I think that is about everything. It has been such a great 2024. I am so grateful again for you guys. I hope you will continue to join us for 2025 because we do have more incredible episodes coming your way from a lot of VBA2Cs. We have polyhydramnios (high fluid). We have HBACs. We have CBACs. We're going to have a couple of OBs actually and special scars. So many great things. We will catch you in 2025. I hope you guys have a fantastic new year. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Women of Strength! We have another beautiful VBAC birth story for you today from our friend, Georyana. Georyana shares how she went from having an unplanned Cesarean with her first birth to a planned HBAC but unexpected breech delivery!During her first postpartum period, Georyana experienced postpartum preeclampsia, depression, and anxiety. She and Meagan dive into coping tools and resources available for anyone else going through the same.While prepping for her VBAC, Georyana also talks about the power she felt while listening to other stories on The VBAC Link Podcast. She knew she had to give her body the chance to show what it was capable of. “If it could happen for her, it could happen for me. Why disqualify myself? Why disqualify my body?”Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. Merry Christmas to you. It's so fun to be recording today. It's actually not even October. It's September when we are recording, but it's so fun to think how close we are to Christmas. I hope you guys are having an amazing day, and if you are listening the day after Christmas, I hope you had an amazing Christmas. We have our friend, Georyana, with us today, and she is from Florida. Hello, love. How are you? Georyana: I'm doing well. How are you? Meagan: I am so, so great. I was going to say that as you may hear, she's got her little one on board, so we may hear all of the little baby coos and noises. What is your baby's name? Georyana: Her name is Sophia Victoria. Meagan: Sophia Victoria. I love it. I'm so happy she's here. I actually love when we have babies because I don't really hear those noises anymore. I hear them as a doula for a minute, but I miss those little coos. It's so fun. Okay, like I was saying, she is from Florida. She's a stay-at-home mom of two beautiful babies, a three-year-old and this one-month-old that she's got with us. She works part-time remotely and is a Christian and serves as a worship leader for the youth group worship team. Is that correct?Georyana: Yes. Meagan: Awesome. I love that. She says that she's officially started homeschooling her toddler this year which is super exciting. That is exciting. We've had so many moms on the podcast lately who are like, “I've quit my job. I'm homeschooling,” or “My full-time job is homeschooling.” That's amazing. Georyana: Yeah. Yeah. It really is just to be able to soak in all of these moments with your kids. Time flies so fast. You just want to treasure everything. Meagan: It's so true. It really does. I have a 7th grader which is crazy, so yeah. Super crazy. Remind me, you used Needed's iron?Georyana: Yes. I've actually used it for postpartum.Meagan: Yes. I wanted to talk about that because we talk about their prenatals and all of the other things to do during pregnancy. We haven't really talked about the iron, so can we talk a little bit about why you're taking iron and how it's been?Georyana: Yeah, so after this pregnancy funny enough which is something I'll tell during my story, but I passed out after I gave birth. I believe it was due to a lot of blood loss and low hemoglobin, so after I gave birth, I kept taking my prenatals, but my prenatals only had 15 milligrams of iron in them. That's when I decided to go for Needed. I had heard of a lot of amazing reviews. I had heard about it too on The VBAC Link. I'm only taking one additional per day, so I'm taking around 30 milligrams of iron. Meagan: Have you noticed a difference?Georyana: Tremendously. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely less fatigue, more energy. I was getting dizzy a lot during the early days of postpartum and breastfeeding, so that helped a lot too. Meagan: That's what I was going to say. It's probably helping you breastfeed as well. Georyana: Yeah. It's definitely an amazing supplement. Meagan: That's so awesome to hear. I believe in Needed's products wholeheartedly, so it's so fun to see that other people are loving it too. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that really quickly, then we are going to turn the time over to you to share these stories. This is from nnoah and it says, “Generational trauma”. It says, “This podcast and the Facebook group have been a godsend to me. After my 56-hour failed induction and emergency C-section due to very low heart decelerations with my daughter, I told my husband I would be happily scheduling my C-sections from now on. My sister-in-law told me I could VBAC, but I had no hope that my body could birth after such a drawn-out process that ended in ‘failure'. My mom had three C-sections herself with the first being highly traumatic, and I never realized how much her birth experience has influenced my own physiological state as I approached labor and delivery. I researched everything with my first from breastfeeding to infant development and sleep, but I did not read a single book or take a single class on birth. Now, I realize it was because of how much fear and trauma I was carrying around with me from my mother's experiences. I walked into birth ready to fail because I didn't think I could do it. I wasn't tough enough.”She says, “After listening to this podcast, it has me believing in my body and preparing my mind even more before we try to conceive our next baby. I have begun working through my birth with How to Heal a Bad Birth,” which we absolutely love if you want a good book on how to heal a bad birth. That is one of our favorites. It says, “I've already interviewed a VBAC-Link certified doula to assist me in my next birth when we conceive. The resources, podcast, and recommendations here have had me anticipating my next birth with excitement rather than dread. I couldn't be more grateful for this resource. Thank you.” Wow. So many things within that review. I one, am so thankful for that amazing review, and I want you to know that we are here for you and this community and these stories are here to help empower you even further going into your next birth. I love that she said that she had a doula before she was even conceived. She's found the doula she's going to hire, and as soon as she conceives, she can hire that doula. As a reminder, just like she said, we have a VBAC directory with VBAC-certified doulas. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula and look for a doula in your area.Okay, mama. Oh, look at this cute little baby with a full head of hair. Georyana: Yeah, she had a lot of hair. That's how she was born, with a lot of hair. Meagan: Her hair was probably born first. It's so long, oh my gosh. Oh, I'd love to turn the time over to you to share these stories of yours. Georyana: Okay. Well, just like every VBAC, it starts with a C-section. Mine was in 2021 with my first son. It was an overall healthy pregnancy quote-on-quote. Every prenatal visit was normal for the most part. There was nothing out of whack. I do want to be transparent and say that I did not eat healthy or exercise knowing that I was supposed to. I remember working at this part-time job, and literally after I was done clocking out, I would go straight for the Chick-fil-A. It was Chick-fil-A every day. I ended up gaining around 87 pounds during my pregnancy. Meagan: Wow, okay. Georyana: I was 215 when I delivered. At around 39 weeks with my OB/GYN, she was like, “I want to schedule a C-section because your baby's measuring really big.” We did the whole– I forget the word– where they actually check the baby's weight. Meagan: Oh, like a growth measurement in an ultrasound. Georyana: Yeah, she was like, “This baby is already a 10-pounder.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I was freaking out because I really wanted to give birth naturally. That was something I had told her about, but she was like, “No, let's schedule a C-section.” We were going back and forth, and she was like, “Okay, well at least we are going to get an induction date.” She set up an induction date for March 15th. It was a Monday. I started going into labor. I started going into labor on Friday spontaneously. I went into spontaneous labor. I didn't really know that much about laboring at home and all of the things like right now that I know you're supposed to do. Yeah. I had labored at home for an hour or two until contractions started getting intense. I went to the hospital which was an hour away. I checked in. They checked me. I was 2 centimeters dilated, and they took my blood pressure. They were like, “You have high blood pressure.” They didn't give me a reading or anything, but they were like, “We're going to make you stay. We're going to have you stay. We're not going to send you home.” I was like, “Okay. You guys know what you're doing.” I started laboring for an hour or two, and then a nurse came in and I had explained, “I really want to try and go for a natural birth.” She was like, “Okay. I'm going to give you an hour. I'm going to give you an hour.” Meagan: What?Georyana: “I'm going to give you an hour and see where you are as far as dilation and as far as progressing.” I was like, “Okay.” An hour went by. Mind you, I was strapped to the chair because there's something that you're never really taught, to move around while you are laboring. At the one-hour mark, she comes in. She checks me, and I've gone nowhere. She goes, “I'm going to put you on Pitocin.” Things started getting really crazy at that point because it was my first time feeling contractions, and those contractions were horrible. They are so intense, and now having had experienced these natural contractions from my VBAC, you can automatically tell the difference. She puts me on Pitocin. I labor and I had my husband with me. It was back-to-back contractions to the point where I could barely breathe. I had taken one birth class, but it was the standard information. They never really teach you how to breathe or the importance of getting your mind right, and the importance of your mind and how it plays such a huge role in birth.I just kept laboring. I kept literally squeezing my husband's hand. I couldn't allow him to go anywhere. It was horrible. As the hours passed, things started getting worse and worse. They ended up breaking my water. Then it was more Pitocin. It was already Saturday the next day. I hadn't drank anything. I hadn't eaten anything. There was no ice. There was nothing. Yeah. It just felt horrible. I just stayed. At one point, I couldn't handle the pain anymore so I asked for an epidural. Crazy enough, when the anesthesiologist came, he was with a student. He had asked the student to put the epidural inside of me. They had me sign a consent form. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is this?” I had heard about the epidural and that it was supposed to numb you, but I never expected to get to that point.I got the epidural, then I just started feeling numb. It numbed me completely down. The day went by. It was Saturday, then I eventually reached a 10. It was 10 PM on that Saturday. I was like, “Okay, well I want to try and push.” I tried to push for an hour or two, and basically, that went nowhere because they had me pushing on my back. They were trying to tell me, “Just try and push as if you are trying to go to the bathroom and poop.” It was just so frustrating because I was trying, and nothing was working. Eventually, they were like, “Your son's heart rate is dropping. We just have to do a C-section.” When she told me that, I felt like my world came crashing down because I didn't want it at all. But in that moment, as a mom, you are so vulnerable. You are going through so many emotions mentally, emotionally, physically, and so many things that it's just so hard to make a decision. Obviously, you want what's best for your baby. I was like, “Okay. Let's just do a C-section.” They didn't put me to sleep entirely. It was just my legs, but I just remembered that when they did that, I lost it. I had a very severe panic attack. I was like, “I can't feel my legs. I can't feel my legs.” There were all of these nurses around trying to calm me down. Eventually, we went to the C-section room. My husband was with me, and they did the procedure. My son was born thankfully. They made sure he was okay. They put him near my chest for a minute. They cut the cord and all of the things. But I didn't know what to expect. I thought that was what I was supposed to expect, to have him for a minute and to have him take him away. I didn't have anything else. So nothing, I stayed at the hospital for an entire week because my blood pressure rose drastically. Meagan: Did you have postpartum preeclampsia?Georyana: Yeah, technically. Without the seizures, thank God, but the blood pressure was crazy high. There was a nurse coming in every 2-3 hours to check my blood pressure. I got medication. Yeah. It was just a horrible moment because right there, you just gave birth to this human being while your body is out of whack going through all of these things, and you just feel like you failed. You feel like you failed, and you just did a horrible job. But you know, I just kept in-hospital, and one week later, I was released. The C-section recovery was horrible. It was very, very painful. I couldn't even walk or anything. Taking care of the baby was just really hard for me. Yeah. Eventually, my blood pressure got back to normal, and everything was well. I suffered from postpartum depression and severe anxiety to the point where my husband would go to work, and I would stay alone in the house. I would think that I was going to die of a heart attack. Meagan: Oh, yeah.Georyana: Yeah. My mental health was bizarre. I constantly felt like I was dying. I remember one night, I woke up in sweats. I just felt like I couldn't breathe. We had called the emergency 9-1-1. I literally felt like I was dying of a heart attack. They checked me and were like, “No, you're fine. It's just an anxiety attack.” Postpartum was definitely not the greatest experience for me for the first. Meagan: I am so sorry to hear that happened. Georyana: Yeah, but other than that, I'm so grateful to God that my son is healthy. He's currently 3 years old, and he is just a joy to be around. Meagan: Yeah. Do you have any resources or suggestions for someone who may have experienced that before or just in general for someone listening in case they have any symptoms or anything like that that you want to share?Georyana: For what specifically?Meagan: For postpartum anxiety and panic attacks and stuff to maybe help recognize what it could be or resources that helped you. Georyana: Yeah, definitely my biggest resource was God, the church, and prayer. I think that helped me a lot and just having a community of people who you can count on whether that's a friend or your mom where you can say, “Hey, mom. I'm going through this. Hey friend, I'm going through this. Pray for me. Come over. Please help me. Please help me do some chores,” or anything like that. The weight is a lot. Once you've given birth, you're thinking about a million things– the baby, the diapers, yourself, the kitchen is a mess, and you definitely need to have the support group to lean on. But as far as anxiety, learn where your mind is going. Be able to detect those thoughts that creep in and that tell you, “Hey, you're not doing a good job. You're going to die. This is going to happen.” Learn to stop those thoughts or reframe. Reframe your mind. We have so much power in our minds. Meagan: Yep.Georyana: If we only knew where it could take us. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. Our minds are so powerful, and there is something about that community that can really, really help. There are even more resources like deeper resources. There is postpartum support, Baby Your Baby, and so many things. We talk about this in our course, and I won't go through all of them, but I think it's so important to do a self-care checklist after. Think about, “Have I eaten enough? Have I slept enough?” You want at least 5 hours of sleep. Most of us with newborns can say no to that automatically, so maybe doing something like hiring a postpartum doula, having our mother-in-law come, having our community come in to help and hold baby so we can get really good and effective sleep. Have a bath or a shower. Just getting ready for the day is weird but can help us mentally. It can help us get out of that mental funk. Exercise– now, we can't really do that in the beginning. But have I exercised is another question. Have I allowed myself to laugh today? Have I allowed myself to smile today? These are things. There are many more. Like I said, we talk about those in our VBAC course because it is so important. It's not talked about enough, so I'm so glad that you were able to take this space to feel vulnerable enough to talk about this experience. Georyana: Definitely. I agree. Right now, for this postpartum, I have my mom. She lives 30 minutes away. She comes twice a week and helps me cook meals. Meagan: So good. Georyana: Yeah. They are delicious. You just have to be willing to take the help. There is definitely help. Yeah. It's important that we don't feel alone. Meagan: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Sorry, we can go on to this next birth story. Georyana: This next birth story– my husband and I knew that we wanted another baby, but we just didn't know when would be the right time. 2.5 years passed. We got pregnant. It was a surprise. It was a surprise and a blessing. All I knew inside of me was that I wanted a VBAC. I wanted a VBAC. I was like, “You know what? I'm going to try for it again.” I was obviously open to the fact that it could end in a C-section. I didn't have a closed mind in that sense. I ended up searching for supportive providers. After finding one, I found an OB/GYN. The first thing that I had asked was, “Do you support VBACs?” They were like,”Yeah, we do. We do.” They had five doctors on board, so basically, every prenatal visit had a different doctor so that eventually when I would go into labor, one of them was going to be assisting my birth. To each one, I would always ask the same thing, “Hey, I would like to do this. Do you support it?” They were like, “Yeah, we do that.” My blood pressure was great at every prenatal visit. There were no concerns. I did change a lot of what I had previously done in my previous pregnancy which is that I started exercising. I started walking 30 minutes 3 or 4 times a week. I started eating healthier because I think that's one of the things that most people don't talk about too is the importance of nutrition. It is important in pregnancy. You're always told that you have another human being and you have to eat for two. You're like, “Yeah, let's eat for two,” and you gain 10, 20, 30 pounds. I tried to be mindful of what I was eating. Long story short, everything was going great. At my 32-week appointment, I met with a provider. I meet with one of the doctors on the team, and my same question pops up. She's like, “Oh, you can't really go past 40 weeks here. You can't.” I'm like, “Why? I'm perfectly healthy. My blood pressure is fine. Why can't I go a day past 40 weeks?” She was like, “No, you can't. You actually have to schedule your C-section date right now. You have to sign a consent form. You have to put your due date as your C-section date.”My due date was August 1st. I was like, “Well, I don't understand.” I was just feeling led on because, during the prenatal appointments, there were subtle signs, but I guess I didn't really want to pay attention to them because I was like, “Oh my gosh. I can't imagine switching providers.” I was 7 months pregnant. I was like, “Okay, thank you. I'm just going to call back and schedule that C-section.” I remember going home and being like, “Wow. This really just happened.” I remember that I started praying. I told God. I expressed how I felt. I was just very overwhelmed and, “Is this really the path that you have for me?” I felt that he just told me, “Do a home birth.” I was like, “What? A home birth? That is not–” Meagan: That's not what I've been looking at at all. Georyana: That is insane. Funny enough, I started researching, is that truly an option for me? After researching, I found a midwife. She is actually Chrisitan, a pastor, a worship leader, and a midwife. Meagan: Wow. She wears a lot of hats. Georyana: She wears a lot of hats. I don't know how she does it, but I expressed to her, “Am I able to do a home birth if I had high blood pressure during my previous pregnancy?” She was like, “Yeah. We will monitor you. We will make sure you are taking care of yourself.” She did tell me, “During labor, if your blood pressure skyrockets, we'll have a plan in place and we will go to the hospital.” We had plan A and plan B. I spent the last 2 months with her. She would come to my house, and check my blood pressure. She had me drinking lots and lots of water which is another thing that we underestimate or is not often talked about. Meagan: We do. We really don't. We usually drink water, but we're not getting enough of the hydration.Georyana: 100%. She was like, “You need to be drinking at least half of your weight in water.” All I remember was that every day, I was chugging water. She actually advised me to take Calm as a magnesium supplement. Meagan: MagCalm? Georyana: Yeah, MagCalm. That helped tremendously. That helped tremendously. Everything was safe and sound. I was doing all of the things at 37 weeks– the Miles Circuit, the red raspberry leaf tea. I was eating the dates and all of the things that they tell you to VBAC. I was listening to a lot of birth stories, especially on The VBAC Link which just helped me tremendously because I was able to get in a right mindset. The birth stories edified my faith to a whole other level. I just remember every day doing dishes and I was plugging in a story. Every story was different, and I was like, “Wow. If it could happen for her, it could happen for me. Why disqualify myself? Why disqualify my body?” That's another thing that we do a lot. We often hear, “Oh no, your body wasn't meant to do it” or “Your body can't do it”.Meagan: Yep, yeah. We hear those things, and then we believe them. Georyana: Yeah, that's the sad part. I think I was 39 weeks and 3 days. I go into labor. My water broke at 3:00 in the morning, but I need to backtrack that. At 38 weeks, my midwife checked me. I had asked her to check me. She checked me, and I was 3 centimeters dilated. The baby was head down. The baby was head down. Everything was normal and everything was looking good. She came back at 39 weeks, and I was like, “Can you check me again to see if I've progressed?” Even though that doesn't really mean anything, I was just so excited. She checks me, and she's like, “I don't know what I'm feeling, but I'm not feeling the head anymore.” Meagan: Oh, okay. Georyana: Yeah. I'm like, “What do you mean you're not feeling the head?” She checks, and she's like, “I don't know if that is her hand or her knees or something like that, but it's definitely not the head.” She tells me, “I think I'm going to have to send you to get an ultrasound to see the positioning of the baby.” We spend a couple of minutes just trying to sink that in. She was like, “But you know what? Let me check again. Maybe I was wrong.” She checked again, and she is still feeling the same things, but then she was like, “Is that your coccyx (the tailbone)?” I thought it was. I genuinely thought it was. I tell her, “Yeah. I think that's it.” We were like, “Okay, I think we should be fine.” We were going a little loopy. I don't know. Fast forward to when my water breaks at 3:00 in the morning, I started feeling contractions, but nothing consistent, so during the day, I just remembered that I texted her. She was like, “What other symptoms do you have?” I had my bloody show. My mucus plug fell out. The contractions were different from the Braxton Hicks that I had been facing all of these weeks. I was like, “Yeah, there's definitely some type of shift here because I feel like they are stronger. They are lasting longer.” Fast forward to Saturday, I ended up walking with my husband. His family was in town, and that also helped pick up the contractions. At around 6:00 PM, I gave her a contraction timer app on my phone so she could see. By the way, I had a doula, so she had the app as well. She was an hour away, and she was like, “Please text me so I can come out on time.” At around 7:00 PM, they both arrived to my home. Contractions were 6 or 7 minutes apart. She had me actually do nipple stimulation with my husband. They went out of the room. We did nipple stimulation, and that just skyrocketed everything because I had all of the oxytocin flowing. Meagan: I was going to say that's natural oxytocin flow right there.Georyana: I had natural oxytocin. I was like, “Whoa. Now I'm in a whole other dimension.” Contractions were 3 minutes apart. I just remember breathing. I had worship music playing in the background. The lighting was dim. It was so different from the hospital. It was so intimate. It was something unforgettable what I experienced on that day and when I compare it to my hospital birth, I had so much tension. All the bright lights, it was so different. She set up the birth pool. I went in, and I sat down. She was like, “Okay. I think it's time to push. You're at a 10.” She had checked me. I was trying to push, but I didn't really get it. I was trying to feel my intuition because they always tell you, “Your body knows when it's going to push.” She had me stand up, and she coached me. She said, “Try standing up and seeing if you have the urge to push.” When I stood up, I got that urge. A contraction came. I did a push, and nothing happened. Then another contraction came, and I did. I just remember breathing in, and I just let it out. She sees knees. Meagan: What? Knees? Georyana: Knees. She sees the baby's knees come out. She screamed. Meagan: What?!Georyana: She was like, “Oh yeah. She's breech. She's breech. She's coming out breech.” Meagan: Oh my goodness. Georyana: I just remember I was moaning during that period. I was just like, “Ooh.” I didn't look at anyone, but my husband tells me that at this moment, I just looked at the doula and she had her jaw on the floor. She was like, “Okay, well, you have to breathe in, and push in during the next contraction.” I remember that during the next contraction, I just let out the biggest roar. It was a roar. She came out entirely. My husband caught her. I just fell. I just fell, and yeah, she was breech. She came out knees first, then her legs, then her whole head just popped out. Meagan: I am dying right now. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. Once her knees came out, her whole body slipped out? Georyana: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Definitely. It was such a moment of shock. Meagan: Yeah, I bet for everybody. Georyana: Yeah, for everyone because we thought she was head down. I kept telling her, “You were right. You were right. What you were feeling was the knees.” She was like, “Thank God I didn't send you to do the ultrasound because you would have gotten a C-section automatically at the hospital. That would have been an automatic C-section.” Meagan: Yeah. They wouldn't have entertained that at all. Georyana: Yeah. He put her on my chest. It was so surreal. I was like, “Wow. My body did this. God really did this to me.” We went on over to the bed. They weighed her. She was 6 pounds and 3 ounces. Meagan: Aw, your tiny little thing. Georyana: Yeah, she was tiny which also helped me. Yeah. Shortly after, I started breastfeeding. With my first, with my son, that was something I really wanted to do, but he never really quite latched so I just pumped for 2 years. For this one, I didn't really expect to breastfeed, I was like, “If it happens, good. If it doesn't, then whatever.” But when she started breastfeeding, I was just like, “Wow, my body is doing this too.” The connection that I just feel with her that I have is just out of this world. That was my experience. Meagan: Wow. Had your midwife done breech before? Georyana: She says that obviously when she was in training with other midwives before she went solo, she had experienced breech births, but this was her first time solo and alone. Technically, she's not allowed to deliver breech babies under law. If she knows, she needs to automatically send me to the hospital. Meagan: But if the baby's knees are coming out, and baby comes out like that, what are you going to do?Georyana: Yeah, exactly. You don't really have any other option than to just deliver the baby.Meagan: Oh my goodness. Wow. That's an amazing story. This is so awesome. Oh my gosh. This postpartum has been much better?Georyana: Yeah, it has. During the first one, like I said, I suffered from anxiety and panic attacks. I didn't really get that this time around. What I got this time around was anger. Meagan: Hmm, okay. So some postpartum rage? Georyana: Yeah, it was rage, and I guess just handling two kids and the transition from one to two hit me hard. I didn't really know how to understand that. But the same thing around, just being able to give myself grace, I had a postpartum session with my midwife and my doula being able to let them know how I felt was very good. It was very helpful. Speaking with my pastor and just letting them know my feelings and how I felt really helped me. It really helped me. I'm doing so much better now. This postpartum has been amazing. A lot of breastfeeding, a lot of cuddles and snuggles. Seeing my son play with his sister was something I always dreamed of, being able to have two kids. Meagan: Oh, what a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing. Huge congrats. This little ball right here is just stunning. Her head, oh my gosh– her head of hair is just insane. She has so much hair. That is just so much fun, and I'm so happy for you.Georyana: Thank you so much, and thank you for having me. Meagan: Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aubrey shares her three birth stories that tell of resilience, healing, trust, and miracles. She has had a vaginal birth, a crash Cesarean, and a VBAC– all of which presented cholestasis. Aubrey's first birth was a long but routine induction. Her second birth was a traumatic whirlwind including a complete placental abruption, general anesthesia, and her baby miraculously surviving 15 minutes without oxygen. Though her third pregnancy had many complications, the open and honest relationship Aubrey had with her provider is what ultimately led to her TOLAC and successful VBAC at 37 weeks and 6 days after another medically necessary induction. Aubrey is proof that no two births are the same, and miracles happen even when circumstances threaten to say otherwise. **Aubrey also wanted to mention that after her VBAC, she was readmitted to the hospital for postpartum preeclampsia. She had a headache every day, decided to eventually buy a blood pressure machine, and it was through the roof. She took herself to L&D, and they put her on magnesium. Aubrey had no idea it was even possible to get it postpartum and wanted to share!Managing Cholestasis SymptomsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. It is almost Christmas, and I am so excited to bring another story your way. This is a VBAC story from a mama who is from Louisiana. She had quite a few roadblocks within her pregnancies that could have easily stopped her from having a VBAC, but she really established a good relationship with her provider even though her provider wasn't actually as gung-ho or excited about the VBAC specifically because she was nervous, together they communicated their feelings and understood where each other were, and came up with a plan to ultimately have a VBAC.I just respect that so much. It's important to know. We talk about providers all of the time. Providers are so important, and they make such a big impact on our outcome, but this provider, even though she wasn't really comfortable with VBAC, she truly believed in our guest, Aubrey, today. You'll have to hear it from her own words. It's awesome to hear how everything unfolded. We also have a topic today that maybe isn't shared a ton. It's called ICP or cholestasis that we are talking about. It is a liver condition that can occur during pregnancy and cause a range of symptoms. A lot of the times, it is baby being born that is the thing to end cholestasis. We are going to talk a little bit more about that, but I wanted to go over some of the symptoms. We've got dark urine, pale or light gray stools, and she'll talk about this. That is definitely something that is not normal in pregnancy, so if you are seeing that, that is a reason to contact your provider. Nausea, she described some other symptoms there. Decreased appetite, pain in the abdomen, or jaundice. These are some things to look out for. Now, there is a website called icpcare.org. We're going to make sure to attach that in the show notes, so if you have had cholestasis before or you want to learn more about cholestasis and how to manage the symptoms, and what types of things like healthy diet, they have so many amazing resources on their website. They even have recipes and different types of healthy fats and grains and legumes and things that we can focus on. We know that all of the time in pregnancy, really what we are putting into our body is so important. Definitely check out icpcare.org if you want to learn more about ICP and managing symptoms and resources and community support and all of the above. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that, and then turn the time over to Aubrey. This reviewer is reneekc89. The review title is, “A Turning Point”. It says, “When I was pregnant with my first, I was one of those ‘whatever happens is fine' moms about birth. Then I had an unplanned Cesarean after a stalled induction. It wasn't until I saw family members and friends so easily have vaginal births that I knew I had to try something different the second time around. I found this podcast through a local mom's group and immediately binged every episode. I continue to listen every week even after my successful VBAC in October 2020.”It says, “Listening to what seemed like every possible outcome helped me release my fear that I might have had. I felt emotionally prepared for anything that might have come my way. I switched hospitals and advocated through my entire 25-hour labor in the hospital, and felt like every decision was a conversation between two adults rather than demands.” Oh, what a powerful thing right there, you guys. She says, “I advocated throughout my entire 25-hour labor in the hospital and felt like every decision was a conversation between two adults rather than demands.” That is how it should be. It says, “I have to thank this podcast for helping me gain that kind of confidence. Thank you also to the Facebook Community for always answering my questions.” Oh my gosh. Thank you, reneekc89, for that review. Just a reminder, you guys, if you have not found us on Facebook yet, check us out. You can find us at The VBAC Link Community. You have to answer a few questions to get in, and then you'll get into this amazing community. We have the community on Instagram, and Facebook, and in this Facebook group. I believe so much that this Facebook community will empower you along the way. Like she said, you can ask questions, share pictures, and share concerns, and share triumphs and feel that love and support along the journey. I also wanted to throw out that we have a CBAC group, so if you are going for a TOLAC and it does end in a Cesarean, or you choose a Cesarean birth after a Cesarean, this group is here for you as well. You can find that at The CBAC Link Community on Facebook. Meagan: All right, Ms. Aubrey. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I know you've probably been waiting. I feel like there are so many times when people are really excited to record their story, then I'm like, “Hey, you're going to be aired this much further out.” You have two months to wait. You're recording now, and then in two months, you'll be airing on, but I'm so glad you are here to share your three stories. You had a C-section, then two VBACs, right? Aubrey: I had a vaginal birth, then a C-section, and then a vaginal birth. Meagan: That's why I'm thinking two vaginal births. So vaginal birth, then Cesarean, then vaginal birth. You've got all sorts of different things added to your story. Aubrey: So many. Meagan: Cholestasis is one of them, right?Aubrey: Yes. Meagan: Okay. I'm excited to talk about that, because I think a lot of people think with cholestasis, there's only one answer. We're going to be talking about that, but I'm going to turn the time over to you.Aubrey: Okay. I guess we'll start with my first birth. Heads up if I cry at all during it because I just do that sometimes. Meagan: That is okay. That is okay. Aubrey: My first pregnancy was totally normal. I had no complications. I was big and miserable, but that was about it. I did have SPD, so my pelvis hurt really bad. I didn't know enough about it to go to a chiropractor to fix it. That was really my only thing until right at 38 weeks, it was that night at about 11:00 at night. I started itching on my feet. I couldn't scratch the itch. I got my husband's socks, and I put gel ice packs inside of them and wore them. That helped, then the itching started in my hands. This had been going on for about 2 hours, so I got in a really cold bathtub. The itching had started to spread more. It wasn't just my hands and my feet. It wasn't a normal itch. It was coming from underneath my skin. It was like my blood was itching. Meagan: People have described it to me as an unreachable itch.Aubrey: It is. It's the most miserable. Meagan: You touch the spot, but you can't get to it.Aubrey: Yeah. It's like when the inside of your ear itches. You're like, ugh. It's like that but all over. Nothing helps. I called the after-hours line at probably 4:00 in the morning. The doctor on call was like, “Pregnancy can be itchy. Take some Benadryl.” I was like, “I've already taken Benadryl. It's not helping.” She was telling me to take some creams, and I knew something else was wrong. I spent the rest of the morning researching. I came to the conclusion that I was 99% sure that I had something called cholestasis, and that I was going to have to be induced.One thing that solidified that was that there were other symptoms that I didn't know about. My stool was white. It was really weird. It just was white-colored. I had this really violent episode of vomiting beyond anything I had ever experienced in my life. That's one of the things. It's this uncontrollable exorcist-style vomiting. Meagan: I actually did not know that. Aubrey: Yeah. It was unnatural. I remember thinking, “That was so weird,” but it was a couple of days before that, and then the next day or so was when I had the weird white-colored stool, but again, I had never been pregnant, so I was like, “I guess this is just pregnancy,” then the itching. That's when I put it all together, and I was like, “Well, I've got cholestasis.” My husband was working that weekend, so I got my best friend to bring me to the hospital. When we got there, I was scratching all over. I was saying, “I'm pretty sure I've got cholestasis.” They clearly didn't believe me. They weren't being ugly. They were like, “All right. Let's see what's really going on here.” They put me in triage, and the on-call doctor came in. She is a lovely person. I don't mean anything bad, but she walked in. She said, “Okay, here's why you don't have cholestasis.” She starts listing off all of these reasons. One of them was that I wasn't jaundiced. Later on, in my research, there's only 30% of women who have elevated bilirubin levels when you have cholestasis. I wouldn't have been jaundiced because my bilirubin wasn't elevated. I said, “Okay. I understand all of that, but can you please just run the labs?” She was like, “Okay, if you want me to run them.” She brought the lady in there. They did the labs, and about 30 minutes later, she came back in, and she was like, “Okay. You were right, and I was wrong. You have cholestasis, and we are going to induce you right now.” I was like, “Okay.”Meagan: Oh my gosh.Aubrey: I called my husband and told him he needed to leave work. At about 5:00, I think– I guess it was about 5:00. They put misoprostol. Meagan: Mhmm, misoprostol, yeah. Cytotec. Aubrey: Yeah, they inserted that. After the first dose, they determined that my cervix was not tolerating it well. They decided to not continue it. They went straight to Pitocin. I didn't know then that what they were doing was really, really fast, but they were upping it every 15 minutes 2 milliunits. Meagan: 15? Wow. That is really fast. Aubrey: It is. Now that I know. At the time, I was like, “Okay.” During my birth, I prepped. I read books, and I went to classes, and I did the Bradley method, and all of the things, but I didn't prepare for induction because I had no idea that I would ever need that, so I knew a lot about birth, but I did not know anything about induction. I was like, “Okay, if you say we're going to do that, we'll do it.” I think I felt my first contraction. It wasn't that long after the Pitocin, but it wasn't that strong. I had contractions off and on for several hours, and the nurses would come in and say, “Oh, are you okay? That was a really strong one.” They didn't feel that bad to me, so I was like, “Oh, I can do this.” That went on for a while, and I guess once I got going more, It just felt like I was always contracting. I didn't know any different, again. I didn't know any different. I just thought this was what it was. Sometimes, it would be more intense, but there was always a contraction. Even on the monitor, you could see that it never dipped down. She asked if she could break my water at 7:00 that morning. It was my doctor. I don't know if she came to check on me or if she happened to be on rounds. She asked to break my waters. I told her I didn't want her to right now. She came back later, and I was okay with her breaking it, so the floodgates opened. I had so much fluid. We did not realize how much fluid I had. That was that morning or maybe the mid-morning. That evening, I hadn't slept in two days at that point because of the itching the night before, and then the contractions. I asked the nurse, “If I get an epidural, will I sleep?” She was like, “Probably so,” then I was like, “Then give it to me. I am so tired.” I did. I slept like a baby. The nurse, I wish I knew her name, but she was so sweet. She came in the night. She put a peanut ball in between my legs. I was only 4-5 centimeters at that point. She put a peanut ball in, and she would come in every 30 minutes. She would flip me from one side to another while I was sleeping. I woke up the next morning at 6:00 in the morning. I had been in labor at that point for 39 hours. I got the epidural at 30 hours. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah. She came in the next morning, and the doctor was like, “Okay. You're ready to push.” I was like, “I am?” The epidural was so strong. I couldn't wiggle my toes. I had no idea. She came in, and set everything up. I pushed her out in 15 minutes. Meagan: Whoa. That's awesome. Aubrey: 14 minutes actually. My doctor was like, “That's the best I've ever seen a new mom push.” I was like, “Wow, yeah. Okay.” Meagan: Go me!Aubrey: Yeah. I didn't have any reference. For me, I was like, “This is taking so long, but apparently it was very quick.” Now I know it was pretty quick. Afterwards, my uterus would not contract back. My placenta wouldn't come off. Now I know it's because afterwards, she told me that my contractions never stopped. There was never a break between contractions, so my uterus was just completely exhausted. Meagan: Uterine atrophy, yeah. Aubrey: Yeah, so she had to manually go in there inside of me and start my uterus to contract again which was not pleasant, but she just basically had to shock it. Meagan: Stimulate it, yeah.Aubrey: Yeah. Eventually, it did, and my placenta just fell out. That was that. When they broke my water, I forgot to say, they did find meconium which is common in cholestasis. It was very light, and she wasn't worried about it. It wasn't an automatic C-section because of the meconium. It was really light. She did have to be suctioned, but other than that, she was perfectly fine. We didn't know any of the genders for any of my babies, so it was fun to find out that she was a girl. That was birth number one, and that was in 2018.A year and a half or whatever it was, I got pregnant right before COVID became a big thing. I was pregnant all through the COVID scare. I was due in September, at the end of September. Again, it was non-complicated. I forgot about this. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage around 16 weeks which I didn't know about. I didn't have any bleeding or anything. They just found it on the ultrasound, and then by the next time I went, it was resolved. I was considered high-risk though the whole time because of the cholestasis, so I had frequent scans all the time. That was really the only thing that was weird. We had tested for cholestasis. There were a couple times because anyone who has had cholestasis knows that anytime you itch, you're like, “It's back.” There were several times I had her test me, and there were no elevated levels. Right before 39 weeks, I told her about some intense itching on my foot. I told her that this time was it. It was the itch. She was like, “Okay, well because of COVID, and we're not sure what the hospital bed situation is going to be like, we're going to go ahead and test your blood and find out if it's present, but in the meantime, let's go ahead and schedule your induction to make sure you have a place if we do have to induce, then you're already there.” She wanted me to induce that day. I couldn't because my husband was gone for the Army. I said, “I just need a few days for him to get back in town.” That was on a Thursday or Friday, and I was induced either Monday or Tuesday. It was on September 1, 2020. I went in for my induction. This time, I had not prepared at all. I was like, “Oh, it's like riding a bike. I've done it once. I can do it again.” I want to say upfront that anything they did during the induction, I was totally a party to it. I agreed. I never said no. I never asked questions. I was uninformed or unprepared or whatever, but I never spoke up, so I don't blame them for anything that happened because I could have spoken up, but I didn't. They always asked me. They never told me, “This is what we're doing.” They asked me my permission for everything. We got there. They did not do Cytotec because it hadn't worked before. They went straight to Pitocin. Again, the same 2 milliunits every 15 minutes. Meagan: Is this just their way?Aubrey: I think it was. I don't think it is anymore, because it was different when I went for my VBAC, but yeah. Meagan: Well, I wonder if that's because you were a VBAC though. Aubrey: No, because one of the conversations I had with one of the nurses, I asked her if we could start slow. She was like, “Well, our policy is to go 2 milliunits every 30 minutes.” I was like, “I'd like to go slower than that.” I think they must have changed their policy. I don't know. That's what my hospital records say is that they were doing 2 milliunits every 15 minutes. I got those thanks to y'all. I was like, “Let me go see what that says.” Meagan: It's nice to see what it says, yeah. Aubrey: Yeah, it is because in my situation especially with what happened to my son, it was so amazing to read what really happened and to know my son is where he is. I'll get to that. Anyway, so she came in around 7:00 in the morning. My doctor was on shift. She asked if she could break my waters. I was like, “Sure, go ahead.” She broke my water. So far, it had been a pretty uneventful induction, nothing to write home about. I didn't have an epidural. I didn't feel like I needed one. I was going to try to do it without one if I could, but that might have been at 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning. I don't know. It was in the morning. Around lunchtime, they started saying that the baby was wiggly and that they couldn't really get a reading of his heart. He had been wiggly before, and so they were like, “Is it okay if we insert an IUPC?” I had that with my daughter. It doesn't harm the baby. It didn't hurt me. I didn't mind them putting it in, which is for those of y'all who don't know, it is a–Meagan: Intrauterine pressure catheter. You've got it. Aubrey: It measures the contractions from the inside so you can see how effective they are and all that. I was like, “Fine, yeah.” My nurse, whose name is Becca, she's lovely, inserted the catheter into my uterus, and the tube that comes out is clear, and it filled with dark red blood. I knew something was wrong. I said, “That shouldn't be red like that.” She said, “It's okay. Sometimes we have a little bleeding.” I said, “Not like that. That's red.” She was trying to calm me down. Meagan: Yeah, and sometimes they can knick the cervix and it can cause bleeding, but you were like, “No. Something's not right.” Aubrey: Yeah. I just knew something was wrong, but before that, I had no symptoms. I had no clue that anything was wrong. I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel any pain. Nothing. I was like, “You need to take it out. Please take it out. Please take it out.” She called my doctor who was in her clinic down the hospital, and she said, “It's okay to take it out if she's not comfortable with it.” When she took it out, blood just came shooting out of me. It was gushing. Meagan: Really?Aubrey: I know it was blood mixed with fluid, so that's why it was so much, but it looked like it was pure blood. It was so dark. I mean, I was like, “Okay, I need the doctor.” Becca was so sweet. She said, “Okay, just give me one minute. I'm going to go outside and get the doctor.” She was so calm. I was freaking out. She went out there. My doctor was in my hospital room within a couple of minutes. I think she was across the hospital in her office. She was there within a couple of minutes. She had an ultrasound machine. There wasn't a lot of time for talking about what was going on. She just got the ultrasound machine, looked for a second, pushed it up against the wall, and my doctor has the most wonderful bedside manner with the way she talks even when she is stressed out. She said, “Okay, Aubrey, we're going to have to go back to surgery now. Brandon, I need you to tell your wife goodbye.” As she's telling him that, they're pulling my jewelry off. The other nurse handed me a consent form for a C-section. They were prepping me as we were talking. Then they ran me down the hall. It felt like Grey's Anatomy. They pushed this poor woman up against the wall. I remember her head hitting the wall. It was that fast. We were running down the hall. We got into the OR, and I just remember them prepping my body and prepping the room. They were getting the instruments lined up. There was no time for anything. I didn't have an epidural, so they didn't have time to call an anesthesiologist to my knowledge. They started putting the lidocaine where my incision was or was going to be. I started hyperventilating. The nurses threw a bedsheet over my head. They popped up under there with me. They were like, “I'm so sorry, but this is the best we can do. We don't have time to put a sheet up. We're going to have to stay under here. We'll stay here with you.”Meagan: Oh my lanta. Aubrey: Yeah, it was really scary. I remember right before they threw the sheet, I could still see the door swinging. That's how fast everything happened. They eventually, she was like, “You have to calm your breaths down because the baby needs the oxygen.” Little did I know that it really didn't matter how much breath I took. He wasn't getting anything. Eventually, they put me out with gas. Meagan: Did they put you under general?Aubrey: I had to be gassed out. I was hyperventilating. They were like, “We need you to be still.” At the time, they were literally about to cut me before they threw the sheet over. I remember the very last thing that my doctor said to her nurse was, “There's no fetal heartbeat. There are no fetal tones.” I knew at that point that he was dead. Meagan: That's the last thing you heard. Aubrey: Yeah. I woke up. I don't know how much longer it was. It was pretty quickly after surgery because I don't think they anticipated me waking up so early. I was in a hallway. I wasn't in a recovery room. Because I wasn't out all the way, I don't know, but I woke up, and two of the nurses, because there were like 18 people in the room with me when everything happened. The nurses' backs were to me. I said, “Is my baby alive?” One of them said, “Oh, she's awake.” They turned around. One of them said, “They're doing everything they can.” I passed back out. Then I woke back up in the recovery room. My doctor was waiting for me. It was COVID, so my husband wasn't anywhere near any of this. Meagan: Yeah, I was wondering. You said his name was Brandon, right? They were like, “Bye, Brandon. We have to take her.”Aubrey: Then he was just left alone in the labor and delivery room freaking out. Meagan: No one talked to him?Aubrey: He told me later that my doctor had come in after the surgery to tell him everything that happened. Immediately afterward, she came in there to tell him. She is the best doctor in the whole world. Meagan: But he had to wait. Aubrey: Yeah, he had to wait. There wasn't any time for anybody to tell him anything. Meagan: How scary for him. Aubrey: Because come to find out, my placenta had spontaneously 100% completely detached from my body in a matter of a couple of hours. If anybody has ever had a placental abruption, it starts slow. It comes off a little bit at a time. Mine came off in a couple of hours. It was completely detached. We didn't know why at the time. It was very unexpected. She was there. I woke up, and I said, “Is my baby alive?” She said, “Do you want to know what you had?” I said, “Is the baby alive?” She said, “He's alive, and he's a boy.” Then she told me what happened. He was dead when he was born. He was dead for 15 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah, 15 minutes. He had no blood flow or oxygen flow to his brain. A lot of his blood had been drained out of him because my placenta had pulled it out of him because it was detached so quickly I guess. He was not completely exsanguinated, but he lost a lot of blood and he had no heartbeat. According to my hospital records, they tried compressions. They tried the electrode things. They tried an epinephrine shot, and they tried an epinephrine drip, and nothing started his heart, and then after 15 minutes, his heart just spontaneously started by itself. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yeah. That's why it was so cool reading back my hospital records to see. My doctor and everyone involved was like, “We can't believe this. I cannot believe he is alive. I cannot believe you are alive,” but reading it and seeing how amazing it really was was really cool. She told me that the surgery had happened in just a few minutes, and that because of how quickly she had to perform that surgery, that my recovery was going to be really intense, and that most people who have a C-section would not be in as much pain as I'm going to be in because they literally had to rip my body open to get him out, but she said, “Your incision is fine.” Luckily, she's a really skilled surgeon. She did all of that perfectly. She said, “I don't expect any trouble with you healing or anything with your scar.” He was put on a cooling blanket and intubated and given maybe six blood transfusions. If anybody from the hospital is listening, I'm sorry if I get the numbers wrong. But it was a lot. There were six little stickers missing from his transfusion bracelet. He couldn't eat. We couldn't pick him up. We couldn't touch him. I couldn't see him for the first 24 hours because I couldn't move, so the nurses had taken pictures of him and brought them to me so I could see what he looked like. They didn't show me the really scary ones until later because there were some at the very beginning that were very scary-looking. My doctor came in the next day to check on me. It was her day off. She just came in to check in on me to tell me how grateful she was that I was there. I know it traumatized her too because she said she had never opened up someone and seen their placenta floating inside of their body. My nurse, Becca, came to see me. She was also pretty traumatized. But anyway, it was a lot. Once he was in the hospital, they put him on the cooling blanket and all that. He had to be on the cooling blanket for 72 hours, and then they were going to be able to test him to see how significant the brain damage was because we knew that he would have some. I mean, after 5 minutes, you start to have brain damage, and then we knew having been out for 15 minutes that we were looking at something pretty significant based on science. That was the thing that I think was different about me then than now. My background was in physiological psychology. That's what I studied in grad school. My immediate thought was, “I know what science says. I know the probability is of my baby,” and that's what I was looking at. What do we need to do to take care of this baby with significant brain damage?We waited, and on the second day, the day before I was released from the hospital, I had a really cool encounter that was just the way that God changed everything for me which came into my VBAC later because of the faith that it gave me, but I had dragged myself to the shower that morning. It was so painful. My husband was still asleep on the couch. I got in the shower, and the water was cold. That made it even worse pain because it was cold. I was in the shower, but I couldn't get up because I was frozen in pain. I was like, “Why is this water in the hospital cold? It shouldn't be cold.” I sat in there for about 15 minutes. The water stayed cold, and it never warmed up. Finally, I said, “God? If you can't save my baby, can I at least have some hot water?” The water turned hot. I just started laughing and crying at the same time. I just knew that my baby was okay. I don't know how I knew. I just knew that even if he wasn't going to be perfect, whatever was wrong with him was okay. It helped me to get through the next few days because it was hard to see him just laying there. Finally, when they were able to do his tests after 72 hours, we had to go to a different hospital. He had to go in a little ambulance and go over there. We had one of the best pediatric neurologists in the area, Dr. Holman. She's not known for her bedside manner, but she's an incredible, incredible doctor. I say that in a way that she's very to the point. She doesn't sugarcoat anything. My sister, who is a nurse, warned me, “I'm just telling you that she's the best of the best, but she's not–” Meagan: She's blunt. Aubrey: She'll give it to you straight. That's what we were expecting. They did his little scans, and when she came back she said, “I don't have a medical explanation, but your baby is perfect. There's not a single spot on his brain. The cooling blanket does incredible things, but I should see something, and I don't see anything.” Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: She said, “Your baby's going to be perfectly fine.” She told us that he's probably going to have some issues from being in the NICU and being still. He would have to have physical therapy to help his muscles and all of that, but as far as his functioning as a human being, he was perfectly fine, and nothing was wrong with him. Meagan: Yay. What a miracle. Aubrey: Yeah. That's what she said. She said, “Your baby is a miracle, and I don't get to say that with what I do very much.” Meagan: That's awesome. Aubrey: Yeah. So that was his birth, and after that, that day, my husband left and went back to the Army. I recovered from that. I recovered from that pretty much alone which was almost as traumatic as what happened in the hospital because I was in so much pain, and I had a 1.5-year-old and a new baby who screamed all the time which was one of the things they warned me about after the NICU. They said, “He's going to cry a lot. We don't know why, but coolant babies just scream a lot.” He did. For hours and hours and hours, he would scream. It felt like torture in a way because it was like I couldn't do anything. He would scream and scream and scream. My friend, Ashley, and my sister were the only way I made it through that. I would call my sister, Kelly, and be like, “I need to come over,” at 3:00 in the morning. She was like, “Come on.” She would hold him while he screamed so I could go in the back and sleep because I was so sleep-deprived and in so much pain. Then my friend, Ashley, would come over and help me clean. She helped me with my daughter. They helped me through that part. My husband was gone for the first 6 months of Amos' life. About 2 years later, I got pregnant again. I was really scared of having to have another C-section. I was on a pregnancy app, and I asked, “Has anyone ever had a vaginal birth after they've had a Cesarean?” Somebody on there was like, “Oh, you should try this thing called a VBAC. There is a place called The VBAC Link.” I was like, “Okay.” I had no idea. I had never heard of The VBAC Link or the term “VBAC”. I found The VBAC Link, and like everybody else, I became obsessed. I listened to every episode, read every article, and every post. By the time it came time for my first appointment with my doctor, I knew that I was going to at least give it my best try. When I told my husband that I wanted to have a VBAC, he was not okay with that. He was really freaked out because, I mean, everybody involved was traumatized. He was. The nurses, the doctors, everybody. He was just like, “Are you sure that's safe?” I was like, “Yes, actually. I am sure that's what is safest.” I got on The VBAC Link, and I was like, “How do I make my husband understand?” They were like, “Enroll in the course and show him the course.” Meagan: Yes. Take the course with him. Aubrey: We did. By the end of it, he was like, “Okay. If that's what you want to do, we will do it.” That's what we planned for. I was really hoping that I didn't get cholestasis for the third time. There's not really anything you can do to prevent it, but I was just really hoping that somehow it wouldn't show up. About, I guess, 20 weeks, I was told that I had complete placenta previa, so that was super fun. My maternal-fetal medicine doctor explained it, and this is for everybody who gets diagnosed with that. It made my brain so much more calm. He told me that your uterus is a muscle. It's juicy, and it has all of these blood vessels. Your cervix is a connective tissue. It doesn't have all of that. Naturally, your placenta is going to gravitate toward where it can get the most nutrients. It almost always resolves itself because it's not going to get what it needs off of your connective tissue. I just banked on what he said, and by 28 weeks, it had gone so far up that it wasn't a concern at all. Around 24 weeks, I started seeing a chiropractor for severe SPD. My pelvis was on fire. It was grinding, and all of the things. It was worse than with my daughter. I didn't have it at all with my first son, but man, it was back with a vengeance with my third pregnancy. The chiropractic care helped so much. If anybody is in the Natchez, Mississippi area, my chiropractor moved to Natchez, Mississippi after she helped me. But anyway, that's where she is if you're near there and you need a good Webster-certified chiropractor, she's amazing. Her name is Dr. Ashley Edwards. She helped me. Then she helped me with positioning and stuff. She's really good. That was 24 weeks. I started that. Early on in pregnancy, I had been coming from one doctor to the other in the same building, and I was really huffing it. My blood pressure was high. They let me sit for a minute and retest it, and it was fine. I didn't think anything of it until later on in pregnancy when that happened again. My maternal-fetal medicine doctor freaked out. He was like, “You've had two high blood pressure readings. We need to test you for preeclampsia.” That was in my third trimester at some point. I'm probably skipping around. He kept pinching me to see, and asking me if the swelling was normal. I kept telling him, “That's just my ankles. I just have big calves and ankles.” Every time, he would be like, “Is this swelling always like this?” I'm like, “That's not swelling. It's just what my ankles look like, but thank you.”Meagan: Oh my goodness. Aubrey: That was fun. I had to carry around my urine for 24 hours to the urine test. He said that I did have protein in my urine, but it didn't meet the threshold of preeclampsia, so I was not preeclamptic, but they were going to watch me for it. Toward the end, I did get, “Your baby's really big,” not from my OB, but from my maternal-fetal medicine. My OB– I guess I should rewind. I didn't even talk about how we had that conversation. My OB from the very start was so amazing. When I first came in, she was like, “I'm so excited for you.” She was like, “Is it okay if I tell Becca (my nurse from before)?” I said, “Yeah, you can tell her.” She texted Becca and told her. Becca and I stayed in touch through everything. She texted me, and she was excited for me. But I told my doctor that I wanted to try for a VBAC, and she said, “I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't see an issue.” She was like, “The only thing that could possibly present an issue is if your cholestasis comes back, and it's early on. But for now, let's plan for a vaginal birth, and that's the goal. If something changes, then we'll talk about it when it changes.”She's a very great doctor because you can talk to her, and you can be open with her and be honest and never feel like she's judging you for telling her how you feel. I can't tell you how many times I cried just with her telling me all kinds of different things. She just listens and never judges. We went through most of the pregnancy with that as the goal until at the end, around 32 weeks, my itching came back. They tested me, and I had elevated bile acids, so I was considered to have cholestasis. They put me on ursodiol. I only itched for a few hours, but I knew what the itching was. It's so different. I knew what it was. I never itched again the whole pregnancy. Even before I got on the medicine, before I had even picked up the prescription, the itching had stopped. I still took it. At that point, they were like, “Okay. We can't let you go into labor naturally. We're going to have to induce,” because that is an automatic induction. Then the whole thing with the preeclampsia came around a little bit after that, so my maternal-fetal medicine doctor was talking about, “We might need to do this at 35 or 36 weeks.” I was like, “I don't think I'm comfortable with that.” My doctor was like, “We'll see, but if you have preeclampsia, that changes everything.” My doctor, my OB doctor– I was talking to her about everything, and she was like, “The reality is that what you have could potentially be dangerous for baby. So every week from about 35 weeks on, we're just going to have to determine if baby is safer in or if baby is safer out, then at that point, we can determine how we are going to deliver the baby because we don't know what your body is going to be doing. We just have to see.” She said, “I'm not telling you that you can't have a VBAC. I'm just telling you that we need to be open to the possibility that it could turn into a C-section if this doesn't go the way we want.” She said, “I feel like as your doctor, I wouldn't be doing you any service if I didn't at least have this conversation with you because if it came to the point that we had to have a C-section, and we had never talked about it, then you would be like, where did this come from? I don't want you to feel blindsighted.” I appreciated it. I did leave really discouraged from that conversation. I cried because I thought that secretly she was trying to bait and switch me. But I should know that my doctor really is great. Anyway, so we went through the next couple of weeks where she would tell me, “Baby is safer in, so baby gets to stay in.” I had scheduled a lunch with Becca. I had asked her if she would be at my new baby's birth. She said she would be my labor and delivery nurse. We'd get to try it again. She was like, “I'm going to help you have a VBAC. You can totally do this.” We had lunch. I told her about the conversation that I had with my doctor. I said, “I just want the opportunity to try. If I get to try and something happens and it doesn't work out, then I'll be okay with that. I just want to try because I know my body can birth a baby.” I said, “I don't have to have the epidural, but if that's what makes her comfortable, I'm okay with that because I've had the epidural before. It's not like I'm anti-epidural. I'll have it if that makes her more comfortable.” I've realized that she is a person with trauma, and I knew that what I was asking her to do was scary for her because of what happened and because probably most people don't know, but cholestasis comes with the risk of placental abruption. It does something to the vascular structure, so it's not that it causes it, but it makes you more susceptible to placental abruption. I knew that she was worried about that. I knew that everything else that had popped up and popped up and popped up, she probably was like, “I don't think I want to do this anymore.” I told Becca all that, and she said, “Have you ever told your doctor that?” I said, “No,” because she knows her. She works with her. She said, “I think if you have that conversation with her, and you tell her just like you told me that she would feel a lot differently about it.” The next appointment was the appointment where we were going to do my first cervical check. We needed to know what my body was doing, so if I had to induce, they knew. Meagan: Where you were at. Aubrey: Yeah. It was one that I wanted and that I needed, I think, in that situation. Before she checked me, I knew that this time if she checked me and it wasn't doing anything that she was probably going to be leaning more toward C-section because I was going to have to be delivering within that week or a few days after based on everything that was going on. When I got in there, I said, “Before you check me, I want to tell you something.” I said, “I just want to tell you this so you don't think that my response to whatever happens in the check is me begging or anything like that. I just want you to know that this is how I feel.” I told her everything I told Becca. I told her that I wanted to meet her halfway and do whatever made her comfortable as long as I got to try. She said, “Okay. Let's just check you and see what's going on.” She checked me, and she said, “You're soft. You're 1 centimeter dilated, and we can have a VBAC.” She said– hold on. Let me get myself together. She said, “I'm uncomfortable with this, but the reason that I'm okay with this is because I trust you. I trust you enough to know that when you tell me your body can do this, I believe you. I know that you trust me enough to know that if I tell you it's time to call it, then you'll believe me and we'll call it.” She said, “The reason that we're doing this is because we have a mutual trust and understanding. We can be honest with each other.”I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I mean, I was just so excited. On the way home, I got into a wreck. I totaled my car. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Aubrey: Yeah. It wasn't as bad because it was totaled because my airbag came out, but it was in very slow bumper-to-bumper traffic. I had to go back to the hospital. She was on-call, and she was like, “Why are you here?” I had to be monitored for that, but everything was okay. Saturday at midnight was my induction. I came in, and they started my IV. It took them a while because I have really weird veins and they are hard to stick. Eventually, they called in an anesthesiologist to use his machine to find my veins. If anybody has hard-to-stick veins, you can use an anesthesiologist, and it works like a charm. He got my vein, and we started fluids. About 30 minutes later, it was probably at 2:30 or so whenever the Pitocin was in. I had my first baby contraction. Rebecca– a different Rebecca, but her name was Rebecca– said, “Okay, here's the schedule we're going to go on.” I forgot to mention this too, but right before my induction, my husband surprised me with his VBAC certification doula course. He had gone through the doula course. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Aubrey: He went through The VBAC Link doula course. He was like, “Surprise! I can be your doula.” Meagan: That is amazing. Aubrey: It was cute. My husband, when she starts telling me the schedule of how we were going to do everything, was like, “Excuse me, I think we need to not be going every 30 minutes. We need to be going every 45 to an hour.” He was so well-educated about the whole thing. She did. She did it slow at first, then we did that through the night. I don't remember if I slept or not, but Becca came on her shift at 7:00. She was like, “Okay. You're doing good, but here's the reasons why I think that we need to increase the interval. We were having contractions, but we need to get a pattern going.” She told me why. I agreed with her that I was okay with it as long as it didn't go faster than 30 minutes. We did that, and that started to actually get a pattern which was really nice. She is a brilliant nurse, and she knows what she's doing. She was like, “We're going to get you moving. Come on. Get up. We're getting out of bed.” She had me walking down the hall, and with the peanut ball, and sitting on the ball. My doctor came in around 9:00. She told me that she thought we needed to break my water. I was really nervous about that because in my research of what happened to my placenta, I had found that it was likely that I had a placental abruption due to the rapid decompression of my uterus. My doctor agreed that that's probably what happened, but when they broke my water, because my vessels were already weak, the pressure suctioned it off. I was really worried about breaking my water. She was like– I've never seen her be so stern with me before because she's always so calm and nice. She said, “Aubrey, I'm very uncomfortable right now. I do not want to see you have a rupture. I do not want to see your placenta detach. We need to be real about this.” She said, “You have a lot of fluid. If we do not let some of that fluid out, your baby is not going to drop. You have a lot of fluid.” I did. I guess I forgot to mention that. I wasn't quite poly, but I was pretty close to having poly.Meagan: Borderline. Aubrey: Yeah. I told her that I was scared. She said, “You cannot make decisions based off of fear. You have to make decisions based off of what is happening and what is fact. The facts are that your baby is high. Your body is contracting. You have a pattern, but your baby is not dropping. There is a reason, and it's likely because of the fluid level.” So, she said, “I can break your water in a way that is not aggressive. I will just cut a tiny little slit and let it come out on its own, then it will come out.” I agreed. I mean, when I step back and look at it, I was like, “She's right. Scientifically, the baby is buoyant and is just floating there.” Come to find out, I definitely had poly. I had so much fluid. When it finally came out, Becca was like, “I don't think I've ever seen that much fluid come out of somebody.” It was the exact thing that the baby needed. He came down, and immediately, I went from 4 centimeters to 6 in an hour. I could feel my body doing very differently. It was changing differently than it had before. I started to get nauseous and shaky. I knew that I was probably getting closer to go-time. I told Becca, “You might want to get the guy to come give the epidural now. I promised her I would get the epidural, and if we're going to get it, we're probably going to need to get it now.” She was like, “Yep. Let's go ahead and get it put in.” She had him put it in really light though so I could still move my legs and wiggle my toes. I could even put pressure on my legs which was nice. That was maybe at 2:00 in the afternoon or 3:00. Oh no. I got the epidural at almost 5:00. I was way off on the time. It was almost at 5:00 that I got my epidural. I had been between a 6 and a 7 and about 70% effaced. After the epidural, they had to go to an emergency, her and my doctor. They came back afterward, and me and my husband were playing Scrabble. I started throwing up. I had the bag, and I was like, “I need to throw up.” Becca came in and she was like, “You're throwing up? This is the best!” She was like, “It's time. It's time.” I was like, “How do you know?” She was like, “I'm telling you. I'm telling you.” She checked me, and then Dr. Barrios came in, and she was like, “Okay, Aubrey. We're going to have this baby.” My husband caught the moment. He has a picture of me the second that she told me I was going to have my VBAC. It was just the least flattering picture I could possibly have, but it's so cool because it's a live picture, and I could see the wave of emotion washing over me. I could feel pretty much everything. I mean, I'm sure if I had no epidural whatsoever, and I think Becca said she turned it down, but I'm sure it was way more intense if I was doing it without completely. I could feel everything. I could feel the ring of fire. I could feel opening up. To me, it didn't feel like I had to poop. It felt like I had a bowling ball just sitting there. They were still setting up while I was trying to push. They were like, “Wait. Let somebody get there, so we can catch it.” Right as they were finished setting up and getting dressed and everything, I was like, “Okay, we're pushing now.” I pushed. I don't remember how many times I pushed, but I felt the head come out. I said, “Is that what the head feels like?” She was like, “Yep. That was the head. We just need one more push and we can get the body.” I pushed. He was out in 4 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Aubrey: Yep. It was crazy. I had to go back and make sure I was not crazy. I looked at the timestamps of the pictures because I was like, “There was no way that it was that fast. It felt like an eternity.” It was 4 minutes. Everybody cried. My husband got a picture of the first time they put him on my chest. As soon as I pushed him out, it was like all of the trauma and everything from before just washed off of me. It was so amazing. Meagan: I bet it was so healing for you to see that you could have a different experience. Aubrey: It was. Meagan: Even though you had a different experience with your first, after having that experience the second time, I'm sure that weighed over you for sure.Aubrey: Yeah. I love the fact that both my doctor and my nurse from the time before were there and we all got to do it again. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that. I bet this was really healing for your provider and your nurse, and not even just healing for your provider, but something that stepped up her experience to see that birth could go a different way after a very traumatic experience. Aubrey: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I hope that. I would say she's not, “Woo, I love VBACs.” She was not anti-VBAC at all, but I would like to think that it helped her see VBACs in a more positive and more probable light. Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. I think you probably did a lot for her that she may not have even known that you did. Aubrey: She did a lot for me. She's the best. The sad thing is that I have different insurance now so if I got pregnant again, I can't have her. But she's incredible. She really is. My baby– we didn't have a name picked out. One of the other nurses, Jordan, who helped me deliver my baby was like, “I know you don't have a name picked out. You don't have to use this if you don't want to, but I was just thinking that y'all wanted a cute, short name that started with A, and Becca's last name is Anders, and it would just be really cute.” So we named our son Anders.Meagan: Cute. Oh my gosh. That's adorable. I bet Becca is so happy. Aubrey: Yeah. When she left the hospital that night, because she charted forever and she left at 11:00 that night, we still hadn't picked out a name. Jordan came in after she had left. She suggested it, and we were like, “That's it. That's his name.” I sent her a picture of the announcement with his name on it. She said, “I had to pull my car over on the road. Don't do that to me while I'm driving.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is so cool and so special.Aubrey: Yeah. There were so many times on The VBAC Link where I see people who are like, “I don't know if I should do it. I'm scared.” Just do it. Just try. If you succeed, it changes you. It's so, so powerful. Meagan: It really is. It's hard to explain. It's so hard to explain that feeling that you get after having a VBAC. It's unreal. It really is unreal. We just had a client the other day who had to be induced due to some pretty severe preeclampsia, and she was a VBAC. The second she found out that she had preeclampsia and needed to be induced, I think a lot of her faith slipped and her belief that it was going to happen slipped. We too have a very raw, beautiful, live photo of the second she saw her baby and her hands reaching down to grab the baby. It tells the whole story within that and that one image tells her whole story. It's incredible. It's incredible. Aubrey: The picture that I submitted to y'all is a picture of right when they put him on my chest, and I mean, it was so surreal. Another thing that I think I didn't really mention is that there was a point when– because I had so much going on. I had all of these different complications and week to week. We don't know if you're going to have a baby this week. It was so stressful. Eventually, I just had to say, “Okay, God. You healed my baby. You started his heart. You healed his brain. You can make my body do what it's supposed to do. I can only do so much. I can eat the dates. I can drink the tea, but after a certain point, there's nothing else I can do other than just walk it out and just trust that God's going to walk me through that.” I had to keep reminding myself of that with every single step because it got really hard. There's a community called “Labor Nurse Mama”, and I was a member of that community too. There's a doula on there. Her name is Lamay Graham. I think she's in Milwaukee. I'm going to tell you where she is, but she's a doula, and she's incredible. We would have these live chats and Zoom calls. They would talk to you.She would help remind me, “You can only do so much, Aubrey. You're doing everything that you can. Stop putting it on you because your body is going to do what it's going to do, and you're not going to change that the more you stress yourself out. You have to just trust God.” She is one of the reasons I kept being able to come back to reality. It was because she would remind me, “You have to just remember. Stop trying to do it all yourself.” Meagan: Yeah. We have to trust, have faith, and do everything we can within our own power, but then understand that there are going to be other things, and you have to have faith in those things. The more educated we are and prepared we are, we can navigate through those things. Well, I am just so stinking happy for you. I can see the emotion. I can hear the emotion. I saw the pictures. If you guys are listening right now, go over to our Instagram or Facebook page, and check out this beautiful image of her just holding your baby. You've got Jordan in the background, your nurse Jordan. I mean, really, it's so beautiful and I'm so happy for you. Congrats. Aubrey: Thanks. I'm sorry I was kind of all over the place. Meagan: No. Listen, that's okay. That is totally okay. I'm just so happy you are here to share your stories. Aubrey: Thanks. I appreciate you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Marlene joins us from California sharing her journey to a VBAC after three C-sections. She was a teenager with her first, and her doctor suggested scheduling an elective C-section for convenience. Marlene didn't even know what a C-section was.She became more educated with each birth experience. Still, when it came time to advocate for her physiological VBA3C birth, there were no hospitals, doctors, midwives, or doulas who would support her. Marlene decided to free birth at home with her husband. During labor, she made the call to transfer to the hospital. She arrived at 9.5 centimeters dilated and pushed her healthy baby out in just two pushes. Though she experienced resistance all along the way, Marlene kept fighting for the vaginal birth she knew she could achieve!Marlene's Doula Website: Designed to BirthHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We are a week away from Christmas. I just cannot get over how fast this year has gone and how many incredible stories we have heard. I cannot wait to hear more stories next year. Today's story is a VBA3C story. These are stories that we get requests for daily. On Instagram, we get people writing us saying, “I need more stories of VBAC after multiple Cesareans. Is VBAC after two Cesareans possible?” Yes. The answer is yes. We have Marlene here with us. Hello, Marlene. Marlene: Hello. Meagan: She's going to be sharing her story just showing you how possible birth is. We have a Review of the Week. We're going to get into that, then we are going to turn the time over to Marlene. This review is by Rachel, and it says, “11 out of 10. Would be best friends with these ladies.” I love that. You guys, we feel like we are best friends, too. Even though we haven't met half of you, we just love this community so much. We feel like we are best friends. It says, “Amazingly knowledgeable doulas with a passion for compassion and birth. Funny, kind, smart. Specialized in VBAC. If humans are exiting your body, you want them by your side.” I love that. That is such a fun review. Thank you so much for your review You guys, if you have not yet, please help us kick off the 2025 season with some new reviews. You can go to Google and just type in “The VBAC Link” and you can leave us a review there, or you can leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Meagan: Okay, Marlene. Welcome to the show. Marlene: Thank you. Meagan: I'm so happy that you are here and excited to hear more details about these journeys of yours that led you to the final VBAC after 3 C-section point. Marlene: Yeah. Sorry if I say “like” or “um” so much because I've been on a few podcasts, and it never gets easier. For some reason, I am always so nervous. Meagan: It is hard. This is episode 300 and something, and I still say “like” and “um”. It happens. Listeners, just know it happens. Picture yourself sharing your story and thinking about what you're sharing and who you're sharing it too and what you need to share for them. It just happens. “Um” slips out.Marlene: Okay. So, I'll get started. I really want to tell my VBAC after 3 C-sections, so my fourth story, but I will get into a little bit of my first three because that paints the picture of how I had my VBAC after 3 C-sections. I was 18 when I had my first. My son is now 15. He's going to be 16 in November. Man, time flies. Meagan: Oh my goodness. It really does. Marlene: Yeah. I grew up in the LA area in Norwolk, so the outskirts of LA. I grew up with my grandparents because my parents were drug addicts and in and out of jail. The social workers took us and put us with my grandparents. There were 7 of us. We were fortunate to be together with family and my grandparents. My parents came when I was 16. I'm the youngest of 7. My parents came when I was 16 years old in the middle of my junior year of high school and were like, “We're clean. We want to take you back.” My grandparents were old. They already raised all of their kids, and they raised all of us, so they were like, “Just go.” They were tired. I understood, so I was like, “Okay.” I went with my parents. They moved me about an hour away from all of my friends and all of my family. It was just us. Probably a year later or 6-8 months later, they started doing their stuff again. I got pregnant. I didn't have anybody to ask. I wasn't educated. I didn't know. I was just like, “I'm pregnant. I'm going to go to the free clinic. I'm going to go to the doctor.” Being a sheep, this is what we do. I go to the doctor and the free clinic. My pregnancy was fine. My son was fine. I'm fine. There were no complications. It was a beautiful, good pregnancy, but towards 38 weeks, on my 38-week appointment, my OB/GYN was like, “Aren't you so uncomfortable? Wouldn't you want to have your baby on your due date? Most first-time moms go to 42 weeks.” In my head, I was uncomfortable. I was super swollen, but I didn't have preeclampsia. He didn't even mention preeclampsia or anything, but my ankles and my legs were probably 3-4 times the size of normal. I was very uncomfortable. I had back pains and stuff. He was like, “You want to have your baby on your due date?” I'm like, “Yeah.” He was like, “Okay. Let's schedule you for you C-section on November 12th.”Meagan: Wait!Marlene: I didn't even know what a C-section was, and not even an induction. Now that I think about it, no. It was straight to a C-section and I'm over here like, okay. I didn't even know what a C-section was. I thought this is how the process was. I was just so uneducated. I trusted him. I was like, he was the “expert”. He knows best, so I'm just going to trust him. I showed up at the hospital on the time and date that he said. They prepped me for a C-section.Meagan: Wow. Marlene: Yeah. Now, in hindsight, now that I know, I'm like, that's crazy. I could have probably sued him or something, but anyway. 4.5 years later, I'm 23 years old. I get pregnant again, and I didn't educate myself still. I was young and living the party life. I was not really caring and not educating myself. I did plan this one though. The first one was unplanned. My girl was planned. We planned to have her, but I still didn't educate myself. I just knew I wanted a VBAC because I wanted to experience birth the way women are naturally supposed to. I just went. I went to a different OB/GYN in a different city. I came back to Norwolk because I'm an adult, and I have my own place now. I went to my sister's OB/GYN. She was like, “Oh, he's good.” I'm like, “Okay.” I just go with him. He was fine. I actually got to go into spontaneous labor this time at least at 39 weeks. My water broke, and straight to the hospital I went. Meagan: Yeah. Marlene: I just went straight to the hospital because that's what I was told to do. I got there, and my pregnancy was fine. There were no complications or anything. I got there, and they were like, “Okay. You're not even dilated, but we'll keep you here since your water is broken.” They let me labor. I didn't feel anything. 12 hours passed, and they were like, “Oh, there's a risk of infection. We have to get this baby out. There is failure to progress,” blah, blah, blah, and this stuff. I'm like, okay. I trusted them again, so they gave me another C-section.6 years later, so this is 2019 right before the pandemic, I got pregnant. It was probably actually 2018 because I had my second daughter in August 2019. I got pregnant, and I was like, “This time, I'm a little more educated.” I found the Free Birth Society. I was listening, and decided to do more research. My husband opened my eyes to, “Oh, we shouldn't be vaccinating our kids.” He had been telling me before, but I was like, no. I was so brainwashed. My family is more medical-minded and stuff. Now, I'm the total opposite. My husband opened my eyes to things. I started doing more research. I can't just trust the doctors now and stuff. Now, I'm in Fresno, California when I was pregnant. I searched high and low for a good, VBAC-supportive OB/GYN, and a lot of them told me, “No, we can't do a VBAC after two C-sections.” This one told me that we could do it. She was truly VBAC supportive. I got to decline all of the things. I didn't even do the diabetes test. I didn't really do anything except for a little bit of bloodwork. I declined everything, and she was okay with it. Then she told me, “You don't have to have a C-section. You could try for a VBAC, but I might not be the doctor who is on call. Who's to say that the doctor who is on call is going to be VBAC supportive.” She said, “Just to warn you, you might have to stand your ground, and fight for your VBAC and stuff.” I was like, “Thank you for being straightforward with me.” My water did break. I went into spontaneous labor again. I went to the hospital right after again. I mean, it wasn't as fast this time. I took a shower. I ate dinner, and maybe an hour or two later, I went to the hospital. I didn't get a VBAC-supportive doctor. The whole time after I got there, she was like, “Okay, you can try for a VBAC.” She was telling me all of these things that I can't do. “You haven't done it before. What makes you think you can do it again?” Just all of this stuff.This time, I did feel contractions. I was in labor longer than 12 hours, but after the 12 hours, she started saying, “Oh, infection.” I had to keep fighting them off, the nurses, and the doctors. I was exhausted from labor. I believe I got to 6 centimeters or so. Those contractions were pretty hard. She just was like, “Oh, I'm about to switch shifts. Don't you want me since you've already been working with me? Wouldn't you feel comfortable if I gave you the C-section versus some new person?” They were doing whatever tactics. I was standing my ground, then finally, I threw the towel in because I was having to fight all of the nurses off while I'm laboring naturally. I had monitors, and the IV, and everything else. I was stuck on the bed. They wouldn't even let me move or anything like that. I was just like, “Whatever.” I educated myself a little bit more, but I wasn't fully educated. I didn't know that I was the authority. I thought they still were. I did educate myself a little better, but not as much as I should have. They wheeled me off into another C-section, and then not even a year later, I got pregnant again. It was probably 6 months later. I got pregnant again. It's funny because my two boys were unplanned, and my two girls were planned. I didn't plan to get pregnant with my fourth. When I found out, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic, they had pretty much just announced the pandemic when I found out I was pregnant, so I was bawling when I found out. The future was so uncertain. My husband and I just finally, because my husband wants a big family. He wants 7 or 8 kids, and I'm like, “You're crazy.” I finally got him to say, “Okay, we're done. We don't have to have any more kids,” then I get pregnant again, and everything that was going on with the pandemic, I was bawling. I was like, “I can't believe this, but whatever. I'm pregnant. I don't believe in abortion. I'm just going to suck it up. I'm having a VBAC now,” especially since none of them were medically necessary. They were all unnecessary. I started doing way more research, reading books, reading articles, listening to podcasts, then finally, I did hear about the Free Birth Society before, but I really dug in and listened to every episode. They were the ones who made me want to do it and believe in myself. Finally, I tried to go look for a VBAC doctor though, and I went back to my other one who was truly VBAC supportive, but she was like, “Oh no, VBAC after three C-sections, we can't do this.” I'm like, “Okay, then,” so I went to look for midwives in my area. I interviewed them all, and they were like, “Nope. We would lose our license. Sorry, we can't do it.” I'm like, “Okay, I guess I'm just going to have to have an unassisted birth or a free birth, so I'm going to look for a doula.” I looked for a doula all in my area, and all of them told me, “No, we can't be your doula because it's going to be an unassisted birth.” So I'm like, “Okay, then. I guess I'm going to do it all on my own.” Like I said, I started reading all of the books, doing all of the things. It comes to the day. My due date comes. My water breaks actually on my due date. I'm like, “Okay.” But it was a normal day. I was cooking and stuff. But with my two girls, when my water broke, it was a full gush. This time, it was a little trickle. It might have tore. I knew about it. I was like, “Okay. It might replenish. I'm not going to panic. I'm going to go about my day.” It wouldn't stop trickling, so I had to put a diaper on, a big pad or a diaper, and I just went about my day.I never felt contractions. I went to sleep, then the next day was a normal day. That night, I went to put my kids to bed, and my husband and I laid down. I started to feel these sensations. They were pretty hard. They weren't hard enough that I had to get up and walk around, but they were hard enough to keep me up. They were not consistent, but they were happening all night. I didn't sleep all night because of them. In the morning at 6:00 in the morning, they totally went away. I had another normal day. I went back to sleep, and I got to sleep that night. Then again, I put my kids to bed. Me and my husband laid down. I felt these sensations, and they were a little stronger. The same thing, I dind't even tell my husband. I was just laying next to him. I put in my Christian Hypnobirthing. I tried to listen to it and breathe through them. They weren't consistent, then the sun camp up, and they went away. The same thing happened every night for a week and a half. Meagan: Whoa. You were still having trickling and stuff or no?Marlene: No. I wasn't having trickling. It was just that one day. My water never broke again. I think it really was broken for that week and a half. Meagan: Oh, okay. Marlene: It's playing with me. I was just like, “Man, is this real? Is it not? Is it prodromal labor? What's going on?” I'm like, “What's going on?” Then finally, the day comes, and I had been up all night the previous night, then I had a normal day, then I went to bed, but at 3:00 in the morning this time, I woke up with strong, and they kept getting stronger, faster, and more consistent. I'm like, “Okay.” I couldn't even lay down like the other day. I had to get up. I didn't wake up my husband. I went and took a bath. I was like, “Oh.” I didn't have a pool because I didn't want to make more work for my husband. I was trying to be not selfish. Even though now, I wish I did have a birth pool, I probably wouldn't have gone to the hospital if I did. I went in the bath. It was hard and small, so I'm like, “I can't be in here. I've got to get out.” I went to the living room. I was pacing back and forth. I was on the ball trying to watch TV to get my mind off of things, then at 6:00 in the morning, my husband wakes up. He always wakes up early. He woke up, and he was like, “Are you okay?” I'm like, “Yeah.” I was like, “I think it's the real thing this time though.” He's like, “Okay, well I'm going to go to Home Depot.” I'm like, “No, babe. Don't go. I need you. It's really intense. The baby is going to be coming soon.” He's like, “No, I'm just going to go.” I'm like, “Okay, whatever. Just go.” He goes, and I go to the restroom. I try to check myself because I never educated on myself how to check myself because I wanted to trust my body, and I didn't want any cervical checks, but in the moment, I wanted to see how much longer even though cervical checks don't really tell you how long you have, but in my head, I was like, “I've been going through this for a week and a half. I want to know how dilated I am.” I stuck my fingers up there wrong. I only went up to my first knuckle, but now I know you have to go put your whole hand in there and go way high up there. I only felt no opening, so I'm like, “Oh my goodness. How much longer am I going to have to go through this?” I started getting blood dripping down my leg. Meagan: Bloody show?Marlene: It was drops of blood dripping down my leg. My cervix was opening so it wasn't bleeding a little bit. It wasn't too much. It was just a little bit. I call my husband. I'm like, “Adam, get home.” That's my husband's name. “Take me to the hospital. I need an epidural.” He comes home 20 minutes later, then when he gets here, the first thing out of his mouth, “Are you sure you want to go to the hospital? Because you told me that unless it's an emergency, don't take you to the hospital. You told me this.” I'm like, “Shut up, and take me to the hospital.” I'm all mad at him because he left me, and he was not helping me. We drive to the hospital. It's a 15-minute drive, and I get there. I'm like, “Check me. Check me. I want to know how far along I am.” They check me, and they're like, “You're 9.5 centimeters.” My whole mentality changed, and I'm like, “I should have stayed home. I'm here. I'm not going to take that horrible car ride again. I'm guess we're going to have a baby here.” But when I got there, they were like, “Okay, let's prep you for a C-section,” because this was the hospital that I had established care with my third, so they already knew I had three C-sections. They were like, “Okay, let's prep you for a C-section.” I'm like, “I'm not having a C-section. I'm pretty much pushing this baby out. I'm 9.5 centimeters. I'm there.” They're like, “Okay,” so the  nurse went to get the doctor 10 minutes later. Now, I'm pretty much complete. They didn't check me any other times, but they were like, “Okay.” They just wanted her to tell me that I needed a C-section. I'm like, “Lady. I'm not having a C-section. I'm pretty much pushing this baby out.” She goes to my husband and says, “Your wife needs a C-section or her or your baby could die.” He's like, “Lady, get out of here. We're not going to do a C-section. She's pretty much there.” Then she leaves, and then 10 minutes later, she gets more fierce. “You need a C-section, or you and your baby will die. Do you understand that?” I'm breathing through my contraction, closing my eyes, and ignoring her, then she goes and tells my husband the same thing. He's like, “Lady, don't come back. We're not having a C-section.” So she leaves and doesn't come back. I pushed the baby out in only two pushes. Meagan: Oh my gosh. So was the doctor even with you?Marlene: A different doctor which is the doctor who I had seen for my third, came. Actually, I forgot to mention this earlier. I did establish care with her, but since it was the pandemic, I had only seen her about three times throughout my pregnancy. I wanted to make sure I didn't have placenta previa, the placenta wasn't in the way, everything was fine. I went a couple of times to the doctor. I told her at the last one around 34 weeks or 36 weeks– I can't really remember, but towards the end in the last trimester, she was like, “Okay, let's schedule you for a C-section.” I'm like, “No, I have to talk to my husband and ask him for his schedule.” The whole time, I told her, “Okay, I will have a C-section,” but in my mind, I was planning that I wasn't going to.She was like, “Well, we could schedule it now, then if it doesn't work for your husband, then you can reschedule.” I was like, “No, I'll just not schedule it, and I'll call you once I get his schedule.” She's like, “Okay,” then a week passed, then she calls me, but I didn't answer, and they just left a voicemail, “Hi, we need to schedule your C-section.” I heard nothing from them after that. She never tried to call back. I never tried to call her back until I saw her in the delivery room. That was the lady who delivered my baby.Yeah, when she saw me, and I was pushing, she was like, “Hi, Marlene.” I'm like, “Hello.” She had a look on her face.Meagan: You're like, “Yes, I've been ignoring you” Marlene: Yeah, it was funny. It was amazing. I told them I wanted delayed cord clamping. I didn't want any vaccines. The whole time, she said, “You're bleeding a lot. We need to cut the cord.” I did bleed a lot for their comfort, but I felt fine. It was a lot of blood, but I didn't need a transfusion or anything. I didn't feel dizzy. I felt fine, but in their case, I was hemorrhaging. I knew some women don't bleed a lot. Some women don't bleed at all. Some women do bleed a lot. It's just different for everybody. I told them, “Leave the cord alone. Leave the placenta alone.” I still had to advocate the whole time because they were trying to cut the cord sooner than I wanted. They were trying to put the ointment on the baby's eyes, trying to vaccinate, and then before I left, they told me, “CPS came to visit me because of medical neglect.” I didn't see my OB/GYN too many times throughout my pregnancy. I used the pandemic. I was like, “I have three kids at home. Nobody could watch them. I can't take them to the doctor with me. What do you expect me to do, leave my three young children at home unsupervised? I don't know anybody around here to watch them.” They dropped everything. It was crazy.Meagan: What was that process like with CPS? We hear it happening. What did they do?Marlene: I guess they have somebody in the hospital, like a CPS worker working in the hospital for cases like mine or whatever. Meagan: Interesting. Marlene: She just came in. She was really sweet. She was like, “I have to come and check.” She was like, “Can you tell me why you didn't go to the doctor? You only went three times throughout your whole pregnancy. You didn't make it to every appointment.” I said, “I have three young children at home. Nobody is willing to watch them, and I can't take them to my appointments.” She was like, “Okay,” That was it. She was like, “Okay, case closed. I just needed to do my job and ask you.” Meagan: It was like, “I'm going to take this baby away from you because you didn't go.” This is the hard thing for me. I'm going to get a little salty. Providers need to do better. Hospitals need to do better. If they don't want people having free birth or unassisted birth, stop pushing people to do that. I also don't judge anyone who does a free birth. Everyone has their own thing. We've shared free birth stories on here, but if they're going to give people so much crap and call CPS on them which is completely ridiculous because these people are just trying to do what's best. Stop making people go that route. Providers, if you are listening, please change your ways, and do better because you can't shame someone for going out of the hospital or not having support from a provider if you don't offer the support that they deserve in the first place. We're restricting midwives out-of-hospital. Providers are restricting after two Cesareans, and sometimes even after one. We have to do better in the medical world in order to see change. Then people who decide, “Okay. I'm going to do what I feel is right, and I'm going to free birth or I'm going to go unassisted, or I'm not going to be hounded about everything that I don't want,” right? It's so aggravating to me that people put people through CPS and things like that because they made the best choice for them when they were pushed away. You had three unnecessary Cesareans. You were failed from the beginning, right? In your very, very first birth, a provider set you up for failure that they had no idea maybe what the repercussions would be in the next few years with how much you'd have to go through to find the support and to get the support. It's just frustrating to me. Marlene: Yeah. I totally agree. Honestly, that's what made me, because I'm a doula, become a doula because I want to try as best as I can. I'm just one person and not a very important person in the medical world, but I try to educate my clients on not getting an unnecessary induction or unnecessary C-section. I'm not against them if they are an emergency, but if they are unnecessary, they're handing them out like Oprah. “You get a C-section. You get an induction.” That's how they're handing them out. In my area, that's what I see. And also, because the ladies who want to have a free birth like me, if I would have had a doula to support me, then I would have probably done it at home. I'm that doula who I was looking for. I support free birth. I'll be there if you're free birthing and you can't find any other doula. Meagan: Yeah, and there are a lot of doulas who feel uncomfortable with it, a lot of it because maybe they are uneducated on it, but I do think it's important for people who do decide to free birth just to make sure you are educated. You know what you are doing. You have a backup plan. You have the support. It is good to hear that you and other doulas are able to go and support still. Everybody has to decide what's best for them and what feels best, but support is needed, so I'm glad that you are willing to support your community. Marlene: Yeah. Honestly, I've noticed that the ones who decide to free birth are very prepared and educated even more so than the ones who are doing it in the hospital and stuff because they have to, in my experience at least. Meagan: Yeah. They do. They do have to. I do believe that those people who decide to free birth don't take it nonchalantly. It's a very serious thing that they take. We talked about that in the last episode. It's important to note that. These people are very educated. It's not just, “Oh, I'm going to go have a baby by myself in my closet.” It's not like that. Really, these people are educated. I'm so happy for you that you were able to fight through this, and to grow through each of your pregnancies and your births because you deserve that support. I'm sorry that you had to fight so hard in the pushing stages. Big eye roll. Again, we need to do better. We need to do better. Marlene: I agree. I'm grateful for podcasts like yours and other ones to get the story out there because we do learn as a community through storytelling and stuff. That's actually what helped me a lot.Meagan: Yeah, they do. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your stories today. Marlene: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Meagan and Julie tackle hot topics like the VBAC calculator, epidurals, and uterine rupture. What does the evidence actually say? And why do providers give such drastically different statistics from one practice to the next? When you know the facts, you are equipped to take charge of your VBAC journey!VBAC CalculatorACOG: Deciding Between a VBAC and a Repeat CesareanVBAC Calculator Online LibraryEpidural Side EffectsVBA2C PubMed ArticleEvidence Based BirthⓇ: The Evidence on VBACUterine RuptureHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast, and guess what? We have a special guest for you today, and that is me. It's Julie Francom. I am here today with Meagan, and I am joining her for a really cool information-packed episode debunking some common misunderstandings about VBAC and showing you what the evidence is and where you can find more evidence-based information about VBAC. Without further ado, your host, Meagan. How was that?Meagan: Oh my gosh. Thanks Julie for the amazing welcome. Oh, so fun. It's so fun. Yes. I am so excited for this episode because it's one of the last episodes with you and I. No, it's not one of the last episodes. It is the last episode of you and I of the year which is so crazy. It is so crazy. Julie: This year has flown. Time is wild. Time is wild. Meagan: It's so strange to me, but that's okay. We will welcome in 2025, and we will say goodbye to 2024. We want to say goodbye to it with, like she said just a really great evidence-based packed episode for you guys.I feel like all year we have gotten messages like, “I had a C-section. I'm being told I can't ever have a vaginal birth. Is this true? Is VBAC safe or possible?”We've had, “I've had one and two C-sections. I've had three C-sections. Is VBAC possible? My provider gave me a 20% chance to VBAC. Is that true? Can I VBAC? Do I really have that low of a chance?”How about this one? This one was more recent that I've heard from our last recording. “You have a 60% chance of uterine rupture if you choose to VBAC.” Ugh. Seriously, so many things that we have heard along the way where it's just–Julie: Lies, lies, lies, lies. It's lies. Let's just call it what it is. Meagan: Aggravating. Julie: For the most part, I do not think providers mean to spread lies or misinformation. I do think that there is a lot of information related to birth in general, but especially VBAC about how this is the way we've always done it. They are just regurgitating information that they have heard from some unreliable source somewhere and aren't really taking the time to keep up with the actual facts about VBAC, about birth, and about anything in general. Also, our system is not set up for continuing educating all of the providers in all of the things. Our hospital providers, I feel like in some capacity we have to give them some grace because they are incredibly overworked. They work crazy hours. They see lots of things and deal with a lot. The medical system is that way. But I also feel like who's responsibility is it to make sure that you are providing the best care? But how can you when the system is working against not only the parents but also the providers and the nurses and everybody. It's really hard because it puts the responsibility on you, the parent, in order to really dig and discover what your options are so that you can make the right choices that benefit you because the system is not set up to support you in any other way besides their hospital policies and following their rules, etc. So, yeah. I don't want this to turn into a provider-bashing episode. I don't think it will either. Sometimes, I think with me talking especially with me being more salty now, it can come across that we are anti-provider or whatever which we are not, but the system is just really frustrating. It takes everybody's efforts to try and change it, everybody's efforts. Not one part of the system can be passive if we want to change it and we want to influence it for better.Meagan: I agree so much. Like you said, we don't want to ever shame the hospital system or providers, but a lot of times, the things we are saying definitely does happen. But it's because there is a lot of fault. There is a lot of fault in these areas. Like you were saying, a lot of these things are lies. The biggest and hardest thing that I found when I was going through my VBAC journey. Julie, I wanted to speak for you and probably say that is the same for you, and that's why we created The VBAC Link: How to Prep VBAC Course is because we didn't know what was right and what wasn't. We just didn't know, and there were so many avenues on Google that you could go down, and you could actually find truth on both sides sometimes even. Julie: And trying to figure out which is true and credible and which is not sometimes is really tricky.Meagan: It's really, really tricky. We want to talk more about that today. We recently talked about hospital policies and what that means and how to go about those, but along with hospital policies come a lot of other things that providers do or suggest or say, so we've got this random policy that was created over here, then we've got all of these random things that are being said over here. We want to know our options. We know hospital policies are what they are. If you haven't listened to the episode, go listen. It's back in November, last month. Go look for it. But today, we are going to be talking about what is the evidence. What are the facts?Let's talk about the VBAC calculator. Let's just start right there because this is where a lot of providers actually begin to determine someone's ability or qualifications if they can VBAC. They'll pull out this list, this calculator, that is online. You can actually get it online. If you want to play around with it, I'll try and make sure to put the link in our show notes because I actually find it very interesting to play around with. We used to do that when we would do in-person courses. We would have everyone pull out their phones, type in the calculator, and type in different scenarios. It was pretty mind-blowing to see how much it could change based off of the answer that you give this computer. You want a VBAC. You have determined that a VBAC is something you want to explore. You want to learn what you can do to have a VBAC. You go to your provider and you go, “Hey, I've had a C-section. I don't want that experience this time. I want a different experience. I would like to have a VBAC,” or what they would call a TOLAC, a trial of labor after a Cesarean. And they're like, “Great. That's wonderful.” Then they're like, “Let's talk about it.” They pull up their calculator and they ask you questions like what, Julie?Julie: They ask you questions like, hold on. I was just digging into the history of the VBAC calculator a little bit more because I was curious about it. They ask you what was the reason for your previous Cesarean? How much do you weigh? It used to ask what your ethnicity was then they docked you if you were black or Hispanic. It also asks, let's see. Meagan: It asks if there was an arrest of descent. Arrest of descent is if you needed a Cesarean because your baby didn't come down. It asks about your history as in have you had a vaginal birth before? Have you had a VBAC? What was the reason for your previous Cesarean? It even asks if you've been treated for hypertension. Interesting. Julie: Interesting. Meagan: Yeah. So height, weight–Julie: Oh, because the chronic hypertension requiring treatment is what replaced the race. When they replaced the race question with do you have chronic hypertension requiring treatment? It may serve as an obvious proxy for race and appears to function similarly in the revised calculator in terms of statistical performance. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Yeah, it says that right on the website. “The information on this website describes the outcome of vaginal birth after Cesarean in term pregnancy for population individuals who receive care at hospitals within (blah, blah, blah) network.” It says, “The information on this website is not intended to be the only basis for making care decisions for individuals nor is it intended to be definitive,” meaning it's not going to be yes, you have to have this or this is the exact chance of you having a VBAC, but yet we have so many providers who go off of this as in point-blank fact.Julie: Like it's the law and like it's a crystal ball. Meagan: Really though. It's so frustrating. Sorry, what were you going to say before?Julie: I just sent you this link from what I was digging into. It's so interesting about the VBAC calculator. It's interesting because first of all, a couple things. The likelihood of the VBAC calculator being accurate for you, the higher percentage of having a successful VBAC, the more likely it's going to be. It's more accurate when the predicted success rates are above 60%. The lower success rate, the more likelihood it is to be inaccurate. Do you know what that tells me? That tells me that most people who attempt a VBAC are going to be successful. That's what that tells me. It's just so stupid because I mean, the development of the calculator was in the early 2000s. From the outside, it actually looks like a good sample size. There were 11,856 people with one prior Cesarean between 1999 and 2002. It was analyzed whether they had a successful VBAC or an unplanned repeat Cesarean. It was analyzed retrospectively. Retrospectively means they looked back on births. It doesn't mean that they did the study when people were pregnant. They looked at it after it had already been done. I like retrospective studies because there's a lot. It really removes the chance for bias related to the study. The interesting thing is that the risk factors that they chose were related to BMI, if you're overweight, age, history of prior vaginal deliveries– so did you have a prior vaginal birth or not– if the prior Cesarean was because of labor dystocia, so that's stalled labor, or your race– black or Hispanic ethnicity. They used these criteria to determine whether or not you were going to be successful in having a VBAC. Here's the stupid thing about this. What it doesn't take into account is the bias in our system against people of color and against people who are overweight. It does not take into account the bias and the different ways people who are overweight and people who are not white are treated in the system. I mean, there are just so many flaws against it as well, but also, I don't know. It says here– sorry. Before I get to my also. It says here– first of all, there are only 19 academic hospitals that were included, so I feel like the sample size of 19 academic hospitals, so university hospitals, and it's between 1999 and 2002. Also, there was a lot of backlash from all of the controversies surrounding uterine rupture in the mid-1990s from that carrying over into that as well. If you didn't know this, they started inducing VBACs with Cytotec in the mid-1990s. It increased the risk of uterine rupture like crazy. I'm not going to do a history lesson right now, but this was only 4 years after all of that. There was probably still a lot of fear and everything related to uterine rupture and everything during all of the time that they were collecting this data. Sorry, I'm probably really nerding out right now. But the thing is that when the predicted success rate was over 60%, it tended to be more inaccurate when it was less than 60%. Accuracy of lower estimates was mixed but generally decreased as predicted success rates declined. I said this before and I'll say it again. My first client ever as a doula had a predicted success rate of 4%, like the number 1-2-3-4. You count to 4. That was her predicted success rate, and she pushed her baby out in 20 minutes. So, I think the VBAC calculator is garbage.  Also, ACOG says in their most recent guideline, actually for the most couple VBAC bulletins that they have put out, is that a low chance of success is not a good reason to exclude somebody from attempting to have a VBAC. But yet, there are so many providers who will not take you if your predicted chance of success is less than 60%. But what did we just say? We just said that if your predicted success rate is less than 60%, it's less likely to be accurate. Isn't that stupid?Meagan: Yes. The other thing I have noticed from providers who do the VBAC calculator is that not only if they say your chances are lower, if they are doing it and it is lower than 50-60%, they automatically go in their mind and they're like, “Oh, she has a lower chance.” They may start being tolerant, but I think it's something to watch out for. If your provider is pulling out this calculator and putting too much weight on the calculator, it might be something to watch out for and understand that there may be a bait and switch coming up or that provider may not end up feeling comfortable with you being able to VBAC or TOLAC. We've talked about this with other providers where they say they are uncomfortable. That is a really good time to say, “You are not comfortable with this. I am comfortable with this. We are not a good match.” Julie: Yes. Don't let your provider dictate how your birth goes. I love that you brought that up, Meagan, because I'm in a member of a Facebook group for labor and delivery nurses. There are 12,000 labor and delivery nurses in there. I'm mostly quiet. I mostly watch because I like to see the climate of the profession and the attitudes around VBAC, birth photography, doulas, etc. There was a post actually this morning in there. The nurse asked, “What is your hospital's protocol around vaginal breech deliveries?” I was like, “Oh, this is going to be good.” I went through the comments, and I was stalking the comments because I know that having a vaginal breech delivery in a hospital is a freaking unicorn. It's a unicorn. You don't usually see it. It was interesting to see the labor and delivery nurses' comments. One of them stuck out to me. I almost commented back, but I pulled myself back. I was like, “This is for labor and delivery nurses. I don't want to stir the pot. I'll stir this pot in other places, but I don't want to stir the pot in this community most of the time.” One of the nurses said that vaginal breech delivery carries risks, and it is up to the provider and patient to decide what risks are safest and what risks to assume. I rolled my eyes at that because it should be like that. It should be the provider AND the patient together to decide the risk, but how often is it the provider only who decides the risks that these patients are going to take on? No. It's not the patient and the provider. It's the provider deciding. It's the provider deciding. Nowhere in the normal, typical, standard conversation does it include providers and patients making decisions. Not real ones. Not when they disagree. Not when they want a little flexibility or not when they want to go against hospital policy, right? Meagan: Yeah. Julie: I mean, there are sometimes, but it's really rare. Meagan: This comment reminds me of the many scenarios that I see or hear within my own clients here in Utah of, “Hi, I really want a VBAC. I met with my provider, and they said they would let me do.” It reminds me of the “let me”. This provider looked at me, read my history, and said that this is what I can and cannot do. This is what they let me do. Julie: Or they led me to the calculator.Meagan: Yeah. We're losing that conversation. Women of Strength, I encourage you to go forward and have conversation with your providers, especially if you are getting this kickback and especially if you are not being told the risks for both VBAC and repeat Cesarean, and you're just being told, “Oh, you have a 46% chance of VBAC based off of this calculator, so I'll let you try, but don't count on it.” Seriously? If I hear anymore providers, ugh. It's so frustrating.Julie: They're doing you a favor. “We'll let you try. Okay, you can try.” Or they say, “But you have to go into labor by 40 weeks or we'll schedule a C-section, but we won't induce you.” Come on. Come on. They're trying to be this savior. We'll let you try, but…Meagan: Don't stand for that unless that's what you're okay with. I can't tell you, “No. You can't see anybody like that.” That's not my place, but I will say that if you're having a provider in the very beginning pull out this calculator telling you that they'll let you try, but the chances are low, your pelvis hasn't done it before, don't know if it will do it again, your cervix didn't dilated to 10, these are problems. These are red flags.  Okay, so the VBAC calculator, we talked about it. We talked about the stats. We talked about our rant. Now, let's talk about uterine rupture. This is a big one that I feel like hovers. It's that dark cloud. Julie: The elephant in the room. Meagan: Yeah. It hovers over people and their fear. I see it daily within our community. “I really want a VBAC. A different experience is so important to me, but in the end, I'm so scared. I'm so scared of uterine rupture.” Valid. I just want to validate your fears right now. It's okay that you feel scared. It's valid that you feel nervous about it. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: It's also understandable that you may feel extra nervous about it because the outside world talks so poorly about it. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: They make it sound scary. It is scary. Julie: It can be, yeah, when it happens. It is. Meagan: When it happens, it can be, but the chances are actually quite low, you guys. We want to talk a little bit about it. I know we've talked about it in the past, but I feel like you can't talk about uterine rupture enough. Julie: Yeah, it keeps coming up, so we'll keep talking about it. Meagan: It keeps coming up. It keeps coming up.Okay, so let's talk about one C-section. You've had one C-section. Your baby didn't come down. You pushed for 2 hours. You had a C-section. You dilated to a 5. You didn't progress. They did all of the interventions. You had a C-section. You got an epidural. Your blood pressure dropped. Your baby didn't do very well. Decelerations. You had a C-section. There are lots of scenarios of why we have C-sections. One C-section– Julie, let's talk about the evidence of uterine rupture after one C-section.Julie: So here's the thing. There are multiple studies out examining uterine rupture and things like that. It's interesting because I feel like it does vary. There are some studies with very small sample studies that have 0% uterine ruptures in their studies, and there are some studies that show higher rates. Now, what I have found as I have been digging is that the studies that are the most credible and most reliable will usually have a rate of rupture between 0.2%-0.9%. I feel like if you have anybody telling you that your chance of rupture is half of 1% or you have a 1% chance of rupture or that the chance of uterine rupture is less than 1% or 1 in 200 or 1 in 100, all of those, I feel like, are pretty accurate representations of what the actual risk of rupture is. Now, there are lots of things that contribute to that of course, but I feel like if you ever have a provider tell you, “Oh, it's about 1%”, that's pretty cool. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty reliable to know that they are within–Julie: Within range.Meagan: They are looking at some study that is within accurate range. Julie: Or I think 0.4%. One of the bigger studies that we cite in our course is 0.4% or 1 in 250. Those are all that for me, personally, I would feel that yeah, you are presenting the data pretty accurately. Yeah. I feel like you're trying to lead this a certain direction.Meagan: No, I'm not. That's exactly something I wanted to talk about is how it can range. You may see something that's 0.2% and you may see something that's 0.47, and you may see something that's 0.7, so I love that you pointed that out. Julie: Yeah. I think that's why the more I go on, I used to say 0.4% or half of a percent whenever somebody would ask me, “What's the rate of uterine rupture?” Those are the numbers I would go to, but now, I feel like it's a little more fluid, and I feel like there's more nuance to that. Meagan: Yeah. I usually say around 1%. What about people who are wanting to VBAC after two C-sections? Because this is another big ask, then it gets even stickier.Julie: So sticky. Meagan: And when we talk about 3+. The evidence after two C-sections– again, everyone has different reasons, but I was told slightly over 1%. Julie: Right.Meagan: 0.7% to 1.1-1.4%. Julie: Well, here's the thing, too. There are not a lot of studies about VBAC after two Cesareans. There's just not, but there are two large studies in the ACOG VBAC bulletin that ACOG cites, and it actually says that– I'm actually going to quote the guideline right now. It says, “Women who have had two previous low transverse Cesarean deliveries should be considered for a trial of labor after Cesarean (TOLAC). However, other factors should also be considered to determine the likelihood of successful VBAC.”Now, here's the thing. It cites two studies in their bulletin as far as risk of uterine rupture. One study that they cite shows that there is not increased chance of uterine rupture from one to two Cesareans. There is one that shows no statistical differences. Now, the other study that they reference shows double the risk of rupture. So, what? 0.5% to 1%? I think it was 1.2% is what the ACOG bulletin says. I'm not sure. I don't have the actual bulletin pulled up right here in front of my face except for that. Meagan: This is another thing where it depends on what you're reading. Some of them are 0.1-1.5% or 1-1.5% and that's even on the higher end of the chances. Julie: Right. The interesting is that ACOG even says that, yet people are going to go say double and triple, or whatever. They're going to make up all of these crazy statistics. Now, gosh dangit. I literally had that guideline. Do you have it open?Meagan: No. The ACOG? No. I don't.Julie: I'm going to find it exactly because we've been called out for this. We literally quoted the exact phrase from ACOG and got thrown under the bus for spewing misinformation when it was literally a quote from ACOG, but whatever. Meagan: While you are finding that, there is an article showing vaginal birth after two Cesareans There was a systemic review and a meta analysis of the rate of adverse outcomes in a VBAC after two. It talks about how the VBAC after two success rate was around 71.1% and the uterine rupture rate was 1.63%, so that is within this. We will have all of these here. If we are quoting something, we're going to make sure that we have it here in the show notes. Please, please, please make sure to go down and check it out. You're going to want more information. We don't have all the time to go over all of these, but I think these are such great reads.  Sorry, have you already found it?Julie: Yep. Meagan: Okay, go ahead. Julie: Excuse me while I clear my throat and crack my knuckles. I'm ready. Let's go. Oh, do you know what? This is actually a pdf from an actual publication, so it's not going to be the exact page that I said. There is a whole section called, “More than one previous Cesarean delivery”. Now, what it says about the studies, I'm going to quote it exactly. “Two large studies with sufficient size to control for confounding variables reported on the risks for women with two previous Cesarean deliveries undergoing TOLAC. One study found no increased risk of rupture, 0.9% versus 0.7% in women with one versus multiple prior Cesarean deliveries whereas the other noted a risk of uterine rupture that increased from 0.9% to 1.8% in women with one versus two prior Cesarean deliveries. “Both studies reported some increased risk in morbidity in women with more than one prior Cesarean delivery, although the absolute magnitude of the difference in those risks was small.”Meagan: Mmm, send me the link so I can put the exact link in the show notes so everybody can go read more.Julie: Yeah. Yep. It also says, “The likelihood additionally retrospective–”. Remember, retrospective is looking back on data that already exists. “Retrospective cohort data has suggested that the likelihood of achieving VBAC appears to be similar for women with one previous Cesarean delivery and women with more than one previous Cesarean delivery. Given the overall data, it is reasonable to consider women with two previous low transverse Cesarean delivers to be candidates for TOLAC, and to counsel them based on the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving successful VBAC.” Meagan: Hey, see? They're even saying that it's reasonable. Here we are. It's reasonable. But then, there are so many people who are like, “Nope. Out of the question. It is not acceptable. We will not support VBAC after two C-sections.” Julie: Actually, I don't think you are supposed to publish this. You might not be able to distribute it. Meagan: Oh. Julie: Because you just do a search on the dark web for ACOG VBAC bulletin 205 pdf and it will pull up. I promise. Meagan: Okay. There you go, everybody.Julie: I just don't want you to do anything illegal. Meagan: Yeah. Get on a search. Get on a search. I do want to talk when it comes to three. When it comes to three, the hardest part for me with three C-sections being shut down is that the evidence is still not there. The concrete evidence is not being studied that much. Julie: Mhmm. Even the studies that do exist, they don't have super large sample sizes. They are very old. They are 20+ years old, so that's the best data that we have to use. Sometimes those studies are just automatically disqualified because of their age, their smaller sample sizes, and things like that so it's hard to make any definitive statements about its safety or risks. Meagan: Yeah. Then there is evidence with induction. Increasing around 1.1% if you use Pitocin. A lot of people say, “We can't use Pitocin. It increases it astronomically.” I mean, to some, 1.1% and having that be their rupture rate, that may make sense, but for a lot of people, 1.1% is still quite low. I did just want to throw it out there that the risk of uterine rupture is not dismissed because you schedule a C-section. It's not. Julie: That's true. In fact, you are more likely to undergo a uterine rupture during the Cesarean than you are by attempting a VBAC. Meagan: You are? I thought it was 0.06. Julie: No, it's in our course. I have the charts from the National Institute of Health. Because of the pressure during the surgical procedure, your uterus is more likely to rupture. Now, granted, it's probably “safer” to have a uterine rupture on the operating room table because baby is already coming out, but there is data that shows it. I'm pretty sure there are graphs and charts in there from the National Institute of Health. Meagan: Yeah. I'm going to go find it. I was reading about it. It was 0.02%. It's just really important to know that it's not just eliminated. Your risk is not just eliminated. Okay, let's talk about– and anything else you want to talk about with that?Julie: Mm-mmm. Meagan: Let's talk about epidurals and the risk that we have with that. Julie: Not ugh about epidurals. That sound was not about epidurals in general. It's about how I know where you're going with this. Sorry. Meagan: No, it's okay. I just want to talk about the risk with epidurals because a lot of people don't know that some of the things that happen after epidurals can be placed or things to do before if you're planning to get an epidural like hydrating and making sure that we're good there. I want to talk a little bit about epidurals. Epidurals can do a few things. They can lower our blood pressure. That's one of the most common that I have seen right out of the gate. But it's given, and the blood pressure drops. Mom's blood pressure drops. Baby's heart stops responding. Julie: Baby's heart rate drops a little bit too.Meagan: Yeah. In fact 13 out of 100 women have epidurals cause low blood pressure. Epidurals can also increase infections. Now, yes. Infections are in our back and stuff, but I'm actually talking about vaginally because I feel like the vagina is an open door. Once an epidural is placed–Julie: Then you have the catheter too. That will give UTIs. Meagan: Yep. Yes. We've got a catheter, then it's like, “Oh, I can check you. You can't feel that.” We keep introducing bacteria. Julie: More cervical checks. Meagan: Yes. Julie: Increased infection.Meagan: Yes. It also can cause problems urinating because we've got this catheter. It can sometimes be placed for hours and hours.Julie: Yeah. 24 hours sometimes depending on how long you're in labor.Meagan: Yes. Approximately 18 out of 100 women will have urinary issues because of cather and things like that. It's kind of interesting. Epidurals can also cause itching. Is there morphine in epidural? I think that's why.Julie: Fentanyl.Meagan: Okay. It wears off, and it can cause itching. It can cause you to go so numb that you're unable to move and groove. Julie: These are small risks. They are small risks. It's okay to have an epidural. Don't be scared out of having one if that's what you want. You can still have a VBAC with an epidural.Meagan: I want to talk about that. I'm still going over these risks. Going into what you were saying, there's an article that I'm reading right now. It says that 75 out of 100 women who had an epidural and they were very satisfied with the pain relief that they received. 75 out of 100 is really great. That's really great. It says, “50 out of 100 women who were very satisfied with the pain relief.”Of opioids, sorry. It says, “Compared to 50 out of 100 women who were very satisfied with pain from opioids.” There are risks to epidurals, but there's also a lot of great things that come with epidurals because we can be more present and have less trauma. It comes to a point sometimes where labor– we talk about pain versus suffering, and if you're suffering, that's not usually going to lead to a positive experience.But, let's talk about the just-in-case epidurals. We have talked about this before. Julie: That's what my sound was for.Meagan: I had a feeling. The just-in-case epidurals are frustrating. We've talked about them before. It just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense. One of these days, I would like someone to sit down and try to make this make sense. It doesn't make sense to me. Is there anything else you would want to share?Julie: Just-in-case epidurals. I just want to do the math on it though. Just-in-case epidurals don't make sense. It's not logical. The idea is that a lot of hospitals will have a requirement that you have to have an epidural placed but not turned on. If you don't want to have it turned on, you don't have to have it turned on, but you have to have it placed just in case of a uterine rupture so they can give you an epidural quickly and go get the baby out without having to put you under general anesthesia because general anesthesia is riskier. That is true. The problem with that is that in order for an epidural to be dosed to surgical strength, it takes 15-20 minutes to be dosed to surgical strength even if it is turned on already. If you have a catastrophic uterine rupture where baby needs to be out in minutes, 15-20 minutes is not going to do it. You're going to be put under general anesthesia anyways. Even if you have an epidural, and baby needs to be out in seconds or minutes, then you will be put under general anesthesia. If there is time to wait, there is time to do a spinal block in the OR. It takes effect in 5 minutes, and boom. You don't have to be put under general anesthesia. So the math isn't mathing there whenever they do that.I've had clients ask when they say, “Hey, just-in-case epidural,” and my clients will be like, “Even if I have the epidural turned on and need the baby out immediately, how much time would it take to get to surgical strength or would I have to be put under general anesthesia anyways?” They'd be like, “Well, we'd probably have to put you under general anesthesia if it's a true emergency.” Every time you ask somebody, the math doesn't math. You can't explain it. Anyways, that is my two cents about that. I think that is the most nonsense VBAC policy ever because you can't make it make sense. It is not even make it make sense. You have people say that about everything nowadays. Make it make sense, but this one literally doesn't make sense.Meagan: Yeah. It's a tricky one. It's a really tricky one. There are risks to getting an epidural, but don't be scared of getting an epidural. It's still okay. It's still okay. Just know, if you are getting an epidural, do things like hydrate. Wait as long as you can. Make sure you go to the bathroom. Eat before. Get your blood sugar up. I'm trying to think of all of the other things. Don't think that just because you get an epidural, you have to get cervical exams anytime they want. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It's okay to turn your epidural down if you decide it's too heavy. Julie: There are also some providers who will tell you that you can't have an epidural with a VBAC because then how will they know if you have a uterine rupture? Anyway, the hospital policies that we see are just so different. They change and they are so drastically different even from one hospital to the next in the same area. Anyways. Meagan: Okay. Anything else that you want to cover or think that we should cover? Julie: No. Is there anything else pressing? I feel like we intended to cover more things, but we just keep chatting about it, but that's okay because there are some good stuff in this episode. Meagan: No, I think it's great. So if you guys have any questions or if you have any studies that you have found that contradict anything that we are saying, share it. Julie: Yeah. Send it over. Meagan: I would always love to read it. There are times where we miss updates studies or there are studies that we haven't seen, so please, if you have a study that either contradicts or goes along or says something slightly different, share it with us. You can email us at info@thevbaclink.com.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Listen to today's episode to hear Meagan talk all about bicornuate, unicornuate, arcuate, and septate uteruses, uterine didelphys, and more.Though there can be complications, research is limited, and vaginal birth is often possible. Chat with your provider about your birthing desires, and don't be afraid to get multiple opinions!A Case of Vaginal Birth after Cesarean Delivery in a Patient with Uterine DidelphysUterine DifferencesSuccessful Vaginal Delivery after External Cephalic Version in a Woman with a Large Partial Uterine SeptumNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, and I am solo today. We will not be sharing a VBAC or CBAC story, but we're going to focus on our topic of the week. That is uterine abnormalities. So if you haven't listened to Flannery's episode last week, or I should say earlier this week, go check it out. Flannery has a bicornuate uterus, and we talked a little bit about the different types of uteruses, and her journey, and what happened or what was most common with her bicornuate uterus. But today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the different types of uteruses. It's kind of weird to think about, but we do. We have multiple shapes of our uteruses. I don't think it's really talked about a lot, so I thought it would be cool to jump on today and talk a little bit more about the uteruses. But, we do have a Review of the Week, so I wanted to jump on and share this review. It says, “I now recommend this podcast to every mom who will listen, even first-time moms. I tell them this is the podcast I wish I would have listened to before our first traumatic birth. It helped me process, learn, and heal so much after my son's birth. Two years later, pouring into numerous books, online courses, and more, we are preparing for our October VBAC. Their podcast has by far been the most favorite resource hands down. Thanks, Julie and Meagan, so much for what you do.”Thank you guys for your review. That review was left on Google, so if you wouldn't mind, press pause in just one moment, and go leave us a review. Your reviews help other Women of Strength come and find this podcast, find the blogs, find the course, find the doulas. You guys, I love this community so stinking much and believe that every mom, just like the reviewer said, and even first-time moms should be listening to this podcast. These stories that you guys share are absolutely incredible. The information that we share is invaluable. If you can, go to Google. Type in, “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review, or leave us a review wherever you are listening to your podcasts. Okay, everybody. Like I said, we are going to be diving into uterine abnormalities. We talked a little bit about Flannery. She had a bicornuate uterus. What is a bicornuate uterus? A bicornuate uterus is a heart-shaped uterus meaning the uterus has two horns making it look like the shape of a heart. With bicornuate uteruses, there are some things to know. There can be a higher chance of a breech baby. I'm going to share my source here with you. It's pregnancybirthbaby.org. We're going to have this in the show notes. I think that it is just so great. It's such a great visual and understanding on the different types. So yeah. They've got two horns. It doesn't reduce your chances of having a baby or getting pregnant. It can increase things like early miscarriage or an early preterm baby, or like I said, it can impact the position of the baby. But it's possible. VBAC is possible with that. The hardest thing about uterine abnormalities is there is not a ton of evidence or deep studies to dive into how it's impacting people who want to go on and have a vaginal birth or go for a, in the medical world, TOLAC or trial of labor after a Cesarean. If you have a uterine abnormality, it's something to discuss with your provider. Know you don't have to go with that first answer. You can get multiple opinions. Okay, another uterine abnormality or shape is– oh my gosh, you guys. Don't quote me on this. I will butcher how to say these. I will try my best. It's a didelphys uterus. It means that your uterus is split in two, and each side of your uterus has its own area. it also can increase your chance of having a premature birth, so if that is something that you have, I think that's something you want to discuss with your provider knowing that you could have a premature birth. We also know people who have premature VBACs all the time, but it's something to discuss. There's acruate, and that is a uterus that actually looks really similar to a normal-sized uterus but has a deeper dip in the top of the uterus in the womb. It doesn't affect your fertility. It can increase just a little bit of a later miscarriage. That is something to discuss, although sometimes providers will want to induce if everything is looking well at an earlier gestational age. Also, this one can impact the position of your baby, so being aware of that. Then there's septate. Again, I don't know. Sorry for butchering this, you guys. If you're a medical professional, sorry. It says, “A septate womb has the wall of a muscle that comes down the center of the uterus, and then it splits into those two areas and is divided by a membrane or a tight band of tissue.” It reminds me of a rubber band. It splits it down. It can also impact fertility and, again, increase the possible risk of miscarriage in the early stages or cause a premature baby. Once again, discuss with your provider if you have this what that means and what that means for VBAC birth in general. Then, let's see. There's also retroverted. That's a uterus that tips further back instead of that forward stage. Again, there are so many different types and shapes of uteruses. Sometimes we don't know what we have until we have a baby who is born. Sometimes it's once we have a Cesarean where they are like, “Oh, hey. You have this type of shaped uterus.” If you really feel like you need to know or you are having issues or anything like that, dive in with your provider and see if they can tell you what shape of uterus you have.Like I said, little is known about the outcome of VBAC with uterine abnormalities, but there is an article and it was back in 2019. It's called “A Case of Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Patient Who Has a Uterine Didelphys”. I want to talk a little bit more about that. As a reminder, that is the one that is split in two. If I recall, I think they even have their own cervixes. That can be interesting. But this is going to be a little bit more on this. They talk about it. There are only a few studies. The studies are low, like 165 women in the one study. It shows that those women with abnormalities found were statistically less likely to have VBAC. Again, we know that a lot of the time, these people have babies who are in less ideal positions or they are going into early preterm labor. There are things to be said about that. But the other small study is literally teeny tiny. It had 25 women with uterine abnormalities reported, and a VBAC rate was similar to women with a “normal” uterus. There are things to say there.Now, the other study showed that they were less likely to experience uterine rupture than women with normal uteruses, but then this one said that the uterine rupture rate was higher. So such little information. I mean, really, it's little information that I have been able to find so far. I'm going to dive in deeper and update you, but yeah. It says, “The actual rates in VBAC and uterine rupture in women with uterine abnormalities are more likely to be similar or less favorable than those women with normal uteruses.” So, keep that in mind. It goes on and says, “Some authors hypothesized that uterine abnormalities, especially unicornuate uteruses, are associated with decreased uterine muscle mass. So when we have decreased uterine muscle mass, that means it may not contract as effectively or strongly as it needs to, so that can lead to other things like arrest of descent or we were not getting into that active phase of labor, needing things like Pitocin and things to augment labor or they may have a harder time pushing out the baby because the uterus isn't helping as well. So we may have a higher chance of an assisted delivery like a vacuum or forceps. With all of this said, you guys, I want to leave it here with you to encourage you to speak with your provider, and get multiple opinions. If you have been told that you can't VBAC because of a certain situation, dive a little deeper with questions with your provider because again, the hardcore evidence is not really there. It's just low. I mean, it's there, but it's low. There's another article that says that uterine abnormalities are common in the general population with an estimated range of 1-15 per 1000% women. We know that there are people out there who have uterine abnormalities. I don't feel like it's talked about a ton, and that's why I wanted to come on today and talk a little about the different types, and of course, share with Flannery's episode with a bicornuate uterus showing that she still did go on to have a VBAC and it is possible. So if you have a uterine abnormality, please know that it doesn't mean you're just completely off the table. It still can be an option. Discuss it with your provider. Check out the links. I will include them in the show notes today more on those uterine abnormalities, and what it means, and what these studies are showing. There was another one that said that a septate uterus is clinically significant because it has been shown to be associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes including, like I said, that preterm labor and malpresentation. So it's a thing that can cause malpresentation and can cause preterm labor, and even miscarriage. But does that mean that you can't have a vaginal birth? Another thing to ask your providers if you have any of these things are, “Okay, if my baby is in a less than ideal position, say, breech or transverse, does my uterine abnormality or my specific case rule me out of having something like an ECV?” Varying rates of ECV success have been reported, and we're also not doing them enough. We are not seeing them being done enough, even though they have a lot of success. But the question is if you have a uterus that is a little different, do you qualify? Ask the questions. Be informed, and if you have any questions, let us know.And hey, if you have a uterine abnormality and you are listening, and you had a VBAC, I would love to hear from you because we have people who are searching for stories with uterine abnormalities. I know that our community would love to hear your story. You can message us at info@thevbaclink.com or if you are a provider who maybe knows a lot more and specializes a lot in uterine abnormalities, I would love to chat with you and discuss a podcast episode in the future. Thank you guys!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Flannery joins us today from Connecticut sharing her story of an unexpected C-section at 35 weeks due to oligohydramnios, breech presentation, and concerns with her baby's kidney functions. She was also transferred to an unfamiliar hospital for its surgical capabilities. Though she was terrified, her anesthesiologist was calm and reassuring. The toughest memory of Flannery's birth was not being able to kiss her baby before he was swept away to the NICU. She was determined to do everything in her power not to have that happen again the second time. Knowing she had a bicornuate uterus, she worked hard to keep her baby's head down from the very beginning of her second pregnancy. She switched to a midwife practice, carried her baby past her due date, went into spontaneous labor, and had an intensely beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC!NICU Free ParkingTypes of Uterine ShapesAFI ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have our friend from Connecticut. And you know what? I didn't ask. How do you say your name? Flannery: It's Flannery. Meagan: That's how I was going to say it. Flannery: Yes, good job. Meagan: We have our friend, Flannery, here from Connecticut and she has a bicornuate uterus. This week's focus is on different shaped uteruses or uterine abnormalities as I'm air quoting. We know that people have them. People have different-shaped uteruses. Sometimes that can impact things like breech babies or even a provider's ability to support– I don't want to say ability. It's their willingness to support, especially in VBAC. We're going to be diving into that. She's also a NICU mama so for other NICU mamas, she might have some tips for you along the way. She just told me before this that she was a labor and delivery nurse before she had her first. Flannery: Yep, and then I switched over. Meagan: Now she switched over to postpartum. She knows the field, so we might talk a little bit about labor and delivery nursing and the postpartum world. Flannery: Yeah, definitely. Meagan: Awesome. Okay, well let's get into your stories. Flannery: Okay, thank you. I'm so excited. I would listen to this podcast all the time when I was pregnant. At the end, when they say, “If you'd like to share your VBAC story–” and I would say, “I will be sharing my VBAC stories someday.” Meagan: I love that. “I will be sharing my story”, and here you are sharing with all of the other Women of Strength coming to learn and grow and feel empowered. Flannery: Yeah, I loved it. My first pregnancy was actually an unplanned pregnancy. I had just gotten married. I just started a labor and delivery nurse job. I was noticing that I wasn't feeling great, that I had some bleeding which I thought was my period, so I just was like, “You know what? Let me take a pregnancy test just to reassure myself because there is no way that it will be positive.” It was, and I was so shocked. I remember taking the tests, seeing the two lines, and my heart dropping. I thought to myself, “I am not ready to be a mom. I can't believe that I am having an unplanned pregnancy. This is so crazy.” I was only 25 which I know is not that young, but up here in Connecticut, it's pretty young. Meagan: Is it really? What's the average for first-time moms? Can I ask?Flannery: I'm guessing 30-32. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: None of my friends had babies yet or anything, so I felt very alone and obviously very shocked. Yeah. I had no idea how far along I was. I went to the dating ultrasound with my husband at the hospital where I worked, and they put the wand on my belly. There was a full baby in there. It wasn't a bean. It wasn't a little heartbeat, but it was a baby. They said, “You're 11.5 weeks along.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Really?Flannery: Yeah. I was beyond shocked. Meagan, I had no idea that I was pregnant. I didn't have any symptoms. I was having some bleeding, so I thought that had been my period, but nope. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Was it implantation bleeding? But then that would be too late. Flannery: I don't know. I think maybe just how some people get first-trimester spotting or bleeding after sex or exercise or something. I'm thinking that's what it was. Meagan: Crazy. Flannery: I know. I had skipped the first trimester, and that terrified me because I wasn't on a prenatal. I was having some wine. I was just like, “How could I have missed this? This is embarrassing. I'm a nurse.” Meagan: “I'm a nurse.” Hey, listen. It happens. People talk about it. I'm sure that was such a shock not only to see those two pink lines and that you were not having babies with any of your friends, but then you skipped the whole first trimester. Flannery: Crazy. It was crazy. It took a while to wrap our heads around it. Then during the ultrasound, hearing the ultrasound tech saying, “Have you ever had an ultrasound of your uterus before?” I was like, “No,” not thinking anything of it, just focusing on the baby, and then I got a call from my doctor a few days later, and she was like, “So, it looks like you have a bicornuate uterus. Have you ever heard of that?” I was like, “No. I've never heard of that before.” She said, “Basically, your uterus is shaped like a heart, and it should be shaped like a balloon.” I was like, “Okay. That doesn't sound too bad.” We hung up. I went on Google and Googled “bicornuate uterus”, and let's just say the stuff that comes up is not reassuring at all. It's so scary. It says things like, “Risk of preterm delivery. Risk of stillbirth. Risk of infertility. Risk of malpresentation.” It just went on and on. Postpartum hemorrhage, and all of this stuff, so I really broke down. I remember just crying and crying to my husband, “I've had this crazy birth defect my whole life, and I've never known it.” I didn't know how it was going to impact my birth or anything. That was definitely scary.Meagan: Did they tell you anything about how it could impact your pregnancy or your birth? Flannery: Not really. This was a general GP doctor that I was seeing, so she didn't really go into it with me, but I definitely spoke about it to the midwives that I was seeing once I established care with them. They were just like, “Yeah, it can cause baby to be breech.” That was all they told me about it. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: Yeah. I was doing a lot of research looking for podcasts and everything about bicornuate uterus and all of the things that go along with it, but I couldn't really find much. This was a few years ago, so maybe three or four podcast episodes about bicornuate uterus, breech, and malformation. I think now there are more, but at the time, it was really hard to find information. Meagan: Yeah. I still feel like it's 2024. What year are we in? We are almost in 2025. We are in 2024, and it still is. There is still not a ton. It's not a beefy topic. Flannery: No, it's really not. I think that some people don't know they have it until they get pregnant which was in my case, and they have an ultrasound. It's hard to tell later on in pregnancy if you have it because your baby will stretch out the uterine space, so you can really only tell in the first trimester if you have an ultrasound. Meagan: Interesting. Good to know. Flannery: So my pregnancy progressed pretty normally after that. I was very stressed at this new job in labor and delivery that I was working in. I was seeing really scary births all of the time, traumatic births, and some good ones too, but it put this idea in my head that you cannot plan your birth. Things are so out of your control that there's no reason to have a plan because you're just going to be disappointed anyway. All you can do is go with the flow. That was my attitude at the time. It's definitely changed since then. It was definitely interesting trying to be a first-time mom and also learn how to be a labor and delivery nurse and reconcile the two experiences that I was seeing. Meagan: I bet. Flannery: Yeah. Meagan: I bet that would be really challenging. Flannery: It was. It was interesting. I established care with some midwives who I worked with. They were highly recommended, but I didn't really feel like they were giving me the midwife experience that I had heard so many people rave about. I felt like they really treated me like a coworker instead of a first-time mom when I was going to their appointments. I was fine with their care. I wouldn't say it was the best or the worst by any means. Then I realized around 25-26 weeks, “Gosh. I'm really feeling this rock under my ribs all the time. I think that's the baby's head. I think the baby is breech.” Then at 28 weeks, I had a growth scan because you have to have growth scans if you have a bicornuate uterus, and they were like, “Yeah, sure enough, the baby is breech.” The midwives told me, “Okay, you can do some Spinning Babies and put an ice pack near the baby's head and play music down low,” and all of those crazy things that you hear. I was like, “Yeah, sure. Okay, I'll try it.” I did a few inversions, but they gave me terrible heartburn, so I was not super consistent with that. The baby just wasn't budging week after week. Eventually, it came to about 35 weeks, and I was getting another growth scan. I had just worked a very tiring shift at work. I went to get my ultrasound. I was dozing off as she did it. She stopped the ultrasound, and she said, “I'm going to send you over to your midwife's office. Go over right now.” I walked over, and the midwife was like, “Girl, what's going on?” I was like, “I don't know. I just had this pit in my stomach, but I had no clue what was going on.” She was like, “You have no fluid. Get back to the hospital. You're going in as a patient now, and we're going to try to rehydrate you.” I was like, “What? What is going on? No fluid? What does that mean?” I guess they had found in ultrasound that my baby's left kidney was super dilated, and my fluid was low which is called oligohydramnios. I know you've talked about this on the podcast before, but I think they measure it with an AFI. It's supposed to be over 8. Mine was a 4. Meagan: Really low. Yeah, below 5. But they were just going to rehydrate you. They weren't going to induce you? Flannery: Not yet, no. They wouldn't have induced me anyway because my baby was breech. Meagan: Which is good. They wouldn't. Yeah. Flannery: They were going to try to rehydrate me first and see how that went. It did, and they decided to give me some steroid shots too. My favorite midwife came in, and she said, “We're going to do these steroid shots, and we're going to see if the rehydrating works. I know you've been working hard. Maybe this is just a dehydration situation because you haven't been able to take care of yourself properly.” I was like, “Okay”, then she made a comment about delivery at 37 weeks. I was like, “Oh, this is a delivery-type situation.” It had really not sunk in with me yet that this was that serious. She was like, “Yes. Oligohydramnios can cause stillbirth. It's very serious. Probably what we are looking at is two weeks of monitoring, and then delivery at 37 weeks which will be a C-section unless your baby flips.” I was like, “Oh my god. Okay.” Meagan: Yeah. But with the fluid, did they want to continue giving you fluid? Did they encourage your hydration with electrolytes and everything? Flannery: Yes, they did. I was chugging water like a maniac for a few days and coconut water and all of this stuff and getting IV fluid. It did come back up a little bit to a 6, maybe. Meagan: I was going to say, did it fix it at all?Flannery: I was still getting a bunch of ultrasounds, then it went right back down to a 4. They said, “We're going to have you consult with maternal-fetal medicine at a bigger hospital on March 9th. My baby was due April 11th, but this was a lot earlier than I was expecting anything to happen. We went to this appointment to get this more detailed ultrasound, and the doctor comes in. She seems very nervous. That's not what you want. You don't want a doctor to seem nervous.No. She's like, “It looks like your baby's left kidney is non-functional. It's just a cluster of cysts.” Meagan: Oh no. Flannery: I was like, “Oh my god.” I was so terrified. I just had no clue. This didn't show up on the 20-week ultrasound or anything. She was like, “And your fluid is still super low.” We did an NST. They sent us home, and I was just waiting around at home with my husband for my midwife to call to make a plan. I was like, “Am I going back to work tomorrow? Am I going to be having this baby?” She called me, and she was like, “So, this isn't what I was expecting to tell you today, but I've been consulting with the neonatologist here and some OBs. Since you've already had your steroid shots, we want you to go to the hospital now to have your baby tonight.” She was like, “Don't rush down the highway in the snow. This is an urgent, not an emergent situation. You'll be in good hands.” I was like, “What in the world?” I was so taken aback. I didn't believe it. They were also transferring me to a different hospital from the one that I had worked at and had planned to deliver at. Meagan: Is it because of the NICU situation?Flannery: Because of the NICU, yeah. This bigger hospital had the capability for surgery, and my hospital did not. It was a situation where it was a small hospital and a situation that they weren't really comfortable with. We hopped in the car and drove through this big snowstorm. I was just crying and shaking. We had no idea. We were both terrified. We had no idea what we were about to walk into.When we met our OB, she walked into the room. She just radiated calmness and kindness and peace. She was just an angel. She made us feel so safe. They were monitoring the baby and putting my IV in. I was still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I was having a baby tonight. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: I was wondering, “Is this baby going to be okay? What is going on here?” We walked down the hall to the OR. I kissed my husband goodbye. I remember just thinking, “Okay. Here we go. There's no going back now.” The only way I could stay calm was to surrender any of the control that I thought I had and really just trust in God and trust in the people who were going to do the surgery on me. I lay down on the table and the anesthesiologist was so kind. He was petting my head and talking to me. My husband came in and they were setting up the drapes. My doctor who I had just met leaned her head over and she said, “This is where I had my first daughter.” That just made me feel so happy. Things are going to be normal again. She had a C-section too. It made me feel very safe. Everything went really well during the operation. I remember I could see the reflection of the operation in the lights that they have above you. I bet other moms will know what I am talking about, but they have these big OR lights, and I could kind of see what they were doing which was crazy.Meagan: You can. They're like mirrors. Flannery: I know. They should come up with something better. Meagan: Yes. For those who don't want to watch or see anything, just turn to the side. Flannery: Close your eyes. Meagan: Close your eyes. Turn to the side. Flannery: Yeah. They said, “After a few minutes, okay. Here he comes. Then he's out.” I didn't hear anything. I heard someone say, “Okay. I need to take him.” I could tell that was the neonatalogist saying they needed to work on him a little bit. They took him over to a corner where we couldn't see or hear anything that was going on. We could just hear people talking. Eventually, we heard a little cry. My husband started to cry. I looked at him, and I smiled. I just felt relief that he was alive, but I didn't feel anything. I just felt this nothingness. Meagan: I can so relate to that. Flannery: Yeah. It's so strange. It's just not what you're hoping to feel in this big important moment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flannery: I remember the neonatalogist after a while, he was breathing on his own. He had peed and pooped. They showed us pictures of him. She walked over with him in his arms in this little bundle of blankets. She stood pretty far away, maybe 6 or 10 feet away. She was like, “Okay. You know the plan. We need to check his kidneys in the NICU. What's his name?” I said, “I don't know. I need to see his face.” She flashed the blanket at me and flashed it down so I could see his face. I couldn't see anything. I said, “I don't know. I don't know what his name is,” and she walked out with him. That is just the worst memory from that whole experience. The surgery itself was really good. The care I had was great, but I'll never get that moment back. She could have brought him over to give me a kiss or see his face. It was hours until– Meagan: Touch or kiss his face.Flannery: It was so long until I could see him and meet him in the NICU. I just think about that all of the time. I did get to go meet him after a few hours. He was doing great. I didn't recognize him at first when my husband rolled me over to his isolet in the NICU which was hard, but as soon as I held him, I just had this overwhelming rush of love. It hasn't changed to this day. He's just such a joy.He turned out to be fine. His kidney was normal. It's resolved on its own, and it wasn't a cluster of cysts like they had thought. Meagan: Yay.Flannery: Yeah. He's doing great. He's a very rambunctious, very smart 2.5-year-old now. Meagan: Good. Flannery: Yeah. I'm so grateful that I have him now. I'm so grateful that I accidentally got pregnant with him.Meagan: Yes. He was meant to be, and he was going to make sure that he was.Flannery: He totally was. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: I'm sorry that you had that experience. I want to say it's unique, but it's not. That sucks. Flannery: It's totally not. Meagan: I hope that as people are listening, if they are in the birth world of labor and delivery nurses or OBs or midwives or whatever it may be, please be mindful of mom. Please be mindful of mom. Don't forget that she doesn't feel these things because does. She needs to see her baby. She needs to touch her baby. She needs to kiss her baby. If it is a true emergency, true emergency, understandable. But in a sense of this, it doesn't sound like it was a true emergency.Flannery: It wasn't. It wasn't. Meagan: They went over, and they took a lot of time with your baby, and then came and left. They didn't need to just come and leave. Flannery: Right, right. Especially when baby is breathing on its own and stuff, you can take 10 seconds to let mom give baby a kiss.Meagan: It will impact mom. Flannery: It totally will. Meagan: Here you are 2 years later still feeling mad. You're like, “I still think about that.” I saw it. I saw it in your eyes as you were telling that story. You feel that still. That's there. I hope that people can remember that protocols and what you think needs to happen and all of these things do not trump mom. Flannery: Totally. Totally. Meagan: Right. Yeah. So, having a NICU baby, how long– what was the exact gestation?Flannery: He was 35 and 5. Meagan: Okay, so it was a preterm Cesarean as well. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Did they have to do any special scar or anything like that because it was preterm? Flannery: No, thankfully not, but he was very stuck up in my ribs. He had the cord around his neck, and there was meconium. I know that he needed to come out that way because I don't think he could have flipped if they did an ECV. I don't know if he would have tolerated labor if he was head down even. Meagan: Yeah. That's definitely an early baby, but good that all is well for sure. Flannery: Yeah. He did great. It was a rocky start, but he's doing great now. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any advice for NICU moms listening? Flannery: Yes. There is this foundation that will pay for your parking costs while you're in the NICU. I didn't know about it in time. Parking can get very expensive when you are visiting your baby. If you just Google, “Parking Foundation for NICU parents,” I'm sure it will come up because I can't remember the exact name. Meagan: I'm going to look it up. I'm going to look it up while you start your next story. We'll make sure to have it in the show notes if I can find it. Flannery: Yes. Yes. Meagan: Okay, keep going.Flannery: My next pregnancy, I was determined to do everything right this time. I was like, “You know what? The last pregnancy was so rocky and so unexpected that this time, I'm going to do everything right, and therefore nothing can go wrong.” I think people have that feeling a lot which is so irrational, but we can't help it. I did go back to see my OB who delivered Freddy, my son. I just loved her. I thought she was wonderful. I just wanted to see what her opinion was about why I had those complications in my pregnancy and see what she thought about a VBAC because even though I wasn't sure if I could have a VBAC, I was interested in it. She listed out all of these rules that she had about VBAC, about, “You can't be preterm. You have to go into labor naturally,” and all of the things that you say are red flags on the podcast. Meagan: I'm like, all of the normal things, but they are all red flags. Flannery: Yes. I mean, I loved this doctor, and I think if I was going to have a repeat C-section, I would have gone back to her because she is awesome, but that wasn't the experience that I wanted to have this time. I did a little research, and I found this midwife practice that everyone recommended to me. I decided to go with them instead. This pregnancy was super uneventful. I was very conscious of taking care of myself and taking walks a lot and prenatal yoga and being on top of my vitamins and all of that sort of thing. I was very religious about positioning and Spinning Babies because I was like, “If I can just get my baby head down from the beginning, I think that I can do the VBAC,” because with a bicornuate uterus, you have less time to flip them, so with a normally shaped uterus, baby can flip up until the very last minute if they are breech, but with a bicornuate uterus, first of all, you have more of a chance of baby being breech and less of a chance for them to flip based on the shape of your uterus. There's just not as much room. I was trying to sit on my yoga ball and doing all of these stretches. I was thinking, “Gosh. This is so unrealistic. Who's not going to sit on their couch for 9 months? I have to be sitting on my couch. I can't be walking 3 miles every day,” but then I'd go back and forth in my head like, “Do you want a VBAC or not? You have to be religious about this.” You don't have to do everything I guess is what I'm trying to say. You'll try your best, but you have to do what's right for you, but you can't go to the extremes.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. With my second baby, I was doing the red raspberry leaf. I was doing the dates. I was doing all of the things, and even with my third baby, I was the one who didn't sit on the couch for 9 months. I still had a posterior baby. I will just say that I still had a posterior baby. I had a head-down, but still a posterior baby. Actually, he was still going breech too throughout pregnancy. Yes. He was such a stinker. But, I did do all of those things. I did the dates. I did the tea. I did all of it. For me, With my third, I had to dial back a little bit and say, “Okay. I'm going to do everything I feel is right for this pregnancy.” Dates wasn't one of those. I actually didn't do the dates thing. I know there is some evidence on that, but I just didn't do it. It didn't feel right to me, but I did other things like chiropractic care. I did drink tea. I hired a midwife and decided to go out-of-hospital and hired a birth team. I did birth education. I think the biggest thing is to do all of the things that stick out and call to you. There are so many things. We give so many tips. Some tips might not apply well to you. Walking 3 miles is a lot. Flannery: It is a lot. Meagan: It's a lot, but if you can walk a mile, that's better than not walking any. Flannery: Right. Meagan: Right? So trying to go and find what is sitting right for you in this pregnancy, this baby, and in this birth, and doing those things and then knowing you did all of the things you could that felt right for you. Flannery: Yes. Totally. I totally agree. Meagan: I knew I could do all of these things and baby might still be breech. Baby was breech at my anatomy scan, and then again at 28 weeks at my other growth scan. I remember going into the midwife and just saying, “What can I do?” She was kind of saying, “Nothing will supersede the shep of your uterus. You can do everything. Why don't you just visualize because at least then you will feel like you're doing something?” I was so mad after I left that appointment. I was like, “You can't tell me that I can't do anything to make this baby flip and that it's all down to the shape of my uterus.” I kept trying. I was 28 weeks and I was going to the chiropractor and acupuncture and inversions. This time, I was really good about the inversions even though it gave me heartburn. It worked. The baby did flip. I remember actually listening to a podcast episode from The VBAC Link, and it was about someone who was trying to flip a breech baby. She flipped her breech baby. I was like, “Okay. This gives me so much hope. I can do it.” It paid off because baby did flip. I was so happy. Yeah.At one ultrasound, they did pick up an issue with the kidney. I remember being so upset because it was the same issue that my son had, but very mild. The baby had been breech at that point. I was like, “I'm trying so hard. I'm doing everything right, and it's not working.” History is just repeating itself. That's what it felt like to me, but we ended up finding out that the kidney resolved at the next ultrasound and the baby had flipped. It was like, “Oh, my prayers are being answered.” I couldn't believe it. I was so happy when we got the results from that next ultrasound.We just continued doing the prep. I had planned. I was planning to deliver in the hospital. I had a doula who was amazing. She was just with me every step of the way talking me down when I was anxious and telling me all of the different things I could try and come up with plans for repeat C-section or vaginal birth. I had really wanted to go without the epidural because I didn't mention this, but I had gotten a spinal headache from my spinal last time, and that was just awful. It was almost worse than the C-section pain. Meagan: I've actually heard that because nothing really takes it away full-on. Flannery: Yeah, except lying down. Meagan: Lying down, yeah.Flannery: I was trying to visit my baby in the NICU. I couldn't just be lying in the hospital bed all day. So I was like, if I can avoid an epidural just so that I don't even have the chance of having a spinal headache again, that's what I'm going to do.I was reading Ina May. I was watching all of the YouTube videos and doing everything that I could, but it got to be a lot. It got to be like, oh my gosh, so much work to prep for this birth. The whole time, you don't know if it's a given if you're going ot get that VBAC.Meagan: I know. Flannery: Sometimes, it can feel like, why am I doing this?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. It is hard because we don't know until it's done. Flannery: Exactly. Until it's 100% over. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: Yeah, so you know, 37 weeks came. 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I was feeling overdue basically since 35 weeks. Meagan: I'm sure. I bet you were like, “I don't know how much longer I can go.” Flannery: I mean, I was definitely hoping to make it to term this time and I was so happy that I did. It was a big, big moment when I hit that 37-week mark, but then I just kept going and going and going. I was like, “Am I ever going to go into labor? What am I doing wrong?” I was walking. It was the end of July and it was so hot out. It was hard to get out there and walk. I eventually hit my due date which was July 25th. I got a membrane sweep on that day which was not super fun. It made me lose my mucus plug and have a few cramps, but nothing else. I was very hopeful that it would kickstart labor, but it did not. Eventually, I thought, “I just have to let go. The baby will come. You might have to have an induction, but you just have to relax.” Finally, finally, 5 days after my due date, which I know is not that long, but it felt long. Meagan: It feels long. It feels long when you are almost 6 weeks after you had your first baby.Flannery: Yes, exactly. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this period cramp feeling. I was like, “Oh my god. Is this it? Am I in labor?” I managed to calm down and go back to sleep. I put my hand on my belly and was like, “Am I going to get another cramp?” They came, and they came, and they started coming every 20 minutes. Eventually, I had to wake my husband up because it was pretty painful at that point. Maybe 2-3 hours in, I squeezed his hand. He was still sleeping, and he was like, “What's going on?” I was like, “I think I'm in labor.” He said, “I was having a dream that your water broke.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. You guys were both willing it in.Flannery: Yes, exactly. It was like we were on the same wavelength. The contractions kept coming, but they just felt like mild period cramps. I had a midwife appointment at 8:15. They said to go in to see if I was in early labor. She checked me and said I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and almost completely effaced. She said, “Your cervix feels labory.” I said, “I think that today is the day.” I was convinced it was prodromal labor or going to fizzle out or something. We went all the way back home. My plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and have my doula come over. I said goodbye to my little 2-year-old. My mom was taking him to hang out with her while we were in the hospital, and I remember she had him say to me, “Good luck, and be strong.”The sound of his little voice saying that to me literally just sustained me through the entire labor. It was replaying in my head in the hardest moments. I could just hear him saying that and it meant so much to me. Yeah. We just hung out at home. I was getting pretty irregular timed contractions. I was wondering why they weren't getting closer together because sometime they would be close together. Sometimes they would be spaced apart, but they were definitely getting stronger. I got in the bath or the shower. I was leaning over, and swaying and moaning, doing all of the things that you're supposed to do– the low-toned moaning and the breathing. I eventually had my doula come over after one really bad contraction. I was like, “What's going on? Why isn't it picking up? Why aren't they getting closer together? Should I go to the hospital? What's going on?” I was really afraid of the car ride because it was about 40 minutes in the car. She said, “I think what is happening is that you have this mental block about the car ride,” because this whole time, I was like, “What if I have the baby in the car? What if I have the baby in the car?” I heard a lot of stories about car babies, and I actually recently had a patient who had a car baby at work. She was like, “I think you have this mental block, and once you get to the hospital, your body is going to let you get fully into labor. So I do think you could go.” I was like, “Okay, okay. Let's go.” I called the midwives and let them know we were coming. My favorite, favorite midwife was on, the one I had hoped this whole time was going to deliver my baby.She was only on for a 12-hour shift, and it was already halfway through her shift. I was like, “Oh gosh. I'm glad she's going to be there.” We drove to the hospital. It was this very hot, very bright, and humid day. I was like, “I don't want to be here. I just want to be in a cold, dark room.”I remember as we turned onto the street that the hospital is in and pulled in the driveway, my contractions boom, boom, boom were ramping up. I was like, “Ashley (my doula), you are so right. This is exactly what happened.” I got into triage. I was making a lot of noise. It was very intense at that point. They checked me. I was 4 centimeters and 100% effaced. I wasn't too disappointed that I wasn't further along because I was like, “This feels pretty intense. I think things are really happening.” But they said, “You picked a very popular day to give birth. There are no rooms available on labor and delivery.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: What?Flannery: I was especially nervous because working in the field, I've seen how a busy unit can really affect the care that is given. It shouldn't be that way, but it totally is. Meagan: It's the reality sometimes. Flannery: Yep. My sister-in-law had recently given birth on a very busy day. She had a very difficult birth, and a very not attentive staff, so that was one of the things I was really afraid of is that I was going to give birth on a super busy day, but my care was excellent thankfully. We eventually waited in triage for a room to be ready, and it was a tub room that became available. There was one tub room in labor and delivery. I was so excited to get in that tub. I jumped right in as soon as we got there. Not jumped, waddled right in. It felt so good. The water felt amazing, but I did find it very hard to maneuver and get in the right position to work through a contraction in the tub because it was weirdly shaped. I didn't stay in there super long, but I was very surprised at how intense the contractions were which sounds silly, but they just really took over. I was hoping to use some coping techniques like music or my rebozo. I brought my massage gun. I brought this whole toolkit of stuff, but in the moment, all that was going through my head during a contraction was cursing and, “I need the epidural. I need the epidural.”I was squeezing my husband's hand so hard. My doula had this spiky, silver ball that you could use for counterpressure so I was squeezing that in my hand so hard breathing. I labored on the toilet for bit. I was in the bed. I was moving around. I could not be lying down. They were having to use continuous monitoring which I didn't really mind. The nurse was very good about not being intrusive about that. She would just follow me around with the monitor. The midwife, who I was hoping to have, was just there with me the whole time. She was holding the monitor onto my belly and speaking kind words to me. I remember going through this terrible contraction and looking over at her. She is just sitting serenely in her rocking chair just looking at me. In my head, I was like, “How can you be so calm? Help me. Do something.” Meagan: I can relate. Flannery: Being present. Meagan: Do something. Help me.Flannery: Help me. Help me. Meagan: Sometimes just being present is what you needed. Flannery: It is. It totally was. She was super hands-off, but in the moment, you're like, “Come on. Somebody do something to help me.” Eventually, I was just sitting on the toilet. The midwife had dimmed the lights. My husband was there speaking to me. I had been making these very loud moans through each contraction, and then during one of them, I started grunting, and I knew exactly what that meant. I was pushing involuntarily. I had been hoping to feel the fetal ejection reflex, and I think that's what this was because my body completely took over. There was no way that I could have not pushed during these contractions. The pain of the contraction was so intense, but it would go away when I pushed. Then I would just feel this really uncomfortable pressure, but at least the pain of the contraction was going away. I had been pushing for maybe 5 minutes, and my midwife was all excited. I was like, “Okay. Please, can you check me?” She was like, “No, just go with your intuition. Listen to your body.” I was like, “No. I need you to check me.” I did not want to be pushing on an incomplete cervix. She did, and I was a 9 and 100% effaced. She was like, “Okay, you can definitely push. That cervix is just going to melt away.” Yes. I tried the nitrous while I was pushing, but I really hated how it restricted my breathing. It also made me throw up everywhere. Meagan: Really? Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Interesting. Flannery: Yes. So much puke. It was so embarrassing. It was splashing on everyone's shoes. I was like, “Oh my god. I'm so sorry.” I pushed on the toilet for a little bit, and then I moved over to the bed. I went over to the bed because when I was on the toilet, I felt something coming out between my legs. I reached down, and it was the bubble of amniotic fluid. It hadn't popped yet. Meagan: Your bag of waters, yeah. Flannery: My bag of waters was coming out. I think I said to my husband, “Do you want to touch it?” He was like, “No.” Meagan: It just feels like a water balloon.Flannery: It felt exactly like a water balloon. I went over to the bed. I got on my side, and I was pushing so hard just totally going with my intuition, but it wasn't the type of peaceful breathing that people tell you to do like the J breathing or anything. There was no way I could breathe through these contractions and these pushes. I was totally holding my breath and bearing down, but that's just what was right for me in the moment. They were saying, “Can you feel the baby moving down?” I was like, “No. Not at all.” I think that's because the bag of waters was still intact. I couldn't feel anything except this really uncomfortable pressure. They said, “Put your fingers inside of yourself and see if you can feel a baby's head.” I put my fingers past the bag of waters, and I could feel the baby's head right there. I pushed, and I could feel the baby move down. It was the most incredible, coolest moment of the birth. I loved that. My midwife said, “Okay, baby's definitely feeling the squeeze.” Her heart rate was going down a little bit. She said, “Turn onto your left side, and with this next contraction, let's have the baby.” I pushed as hard as I possibly could, and just felt this release of pressure. I had no idea what was going on, but I had this cold cloth over my face so I couldn't see anybody, but I heard cheering. Then I felt this warm, wet baby come up onto my belly. I was laughing and crying, and everyone was saying, “Yay! You did it!” I was just like, “Oh my god, what happened?” Meagan: Just like that.Flannery: It was surreal. It was incredible. She started crying right away. We didn't know she was a girl. My husband looked down between her legs. We both looked at the same time and said, “It's a girl.” I said, “I knew you were a girl.” She just stayed with me the whole time right onto my chest. It was just the best feeling. I was so, so overjoyed. Meagan: That is so amazing. It's so amazing with VBAC how the whole room sometimes can just erupt with joy and, “You did it!” and screams and joyful laughs. Oh, man. Flannery: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was so, so intense in a way that I hadn't been expecting it to be. It was a calm, beautiful birth, but the intensity of the contractions and the way that my body completely took over, and I was just along for the ride. I was just riding the waves. It was crazy. Meagan: Truly riding that wave. We talk about it in HypnoBirthing and riding the wave, but that wave came over, and like you said, your body was just like, “Okay, I've got this. Let's go.” Here you went, and this baby came out pretty quickly it sounds like.Flannery: Yeah, she was born at 7:23 PM. I had felt my first contraction at 2:00 AM or something. It wasn't the shortest labor, but once I got to the hospital, it was 5 or 6 hours. It was pretty quick in the end there. She came out en caul. Her head did. Meagan: She did?Flannery: As her body came out, it popped, so she was almost en caul I guess which I thought was so cool. Meagan: Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. I love that. I've seen a couple in my doula career, and it is so cool-looking. A lot of people have said, “Oh, vaginal birth can't have encaul babies.” Oh, yes they can. Yes, they can. 100%. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: I love that you had mentioned, “Once I got to the hospital–”. Sometimes I've had this with doula clients where I'm noticing this pattern of inconsistency and a lot of the times, the client is saying things like, “Should I go? Should I go? Is it okay to be here still? How much longer should we stay?” They are saying these questions because inside, there's a lot going on. I had a client where I said, “You know what? I think we should go. I think you are going to feel safer there. It seems like you are going to feel safer there.” The second we got there, things ramped up. Doctor didn't even make it. The baby slipped out on the bed. Seriously, the second she got there, her body released. It was almost like her epidural. Sometimes, with an epidural, we get an epidural and our body is able to relax. If our mind is not confident or comfortable, we can't let our bodies sometimes. So I love that you pointed that out. I wanted to talk a little bit more really quickly on the types of uterine abnormalities or different types of uteruses. As she was saying, you have a bicornuate uterus which means it's a heart-shaped uterus. I'm probably going to butcher these names especially if you are a provider and you are listening. I don't really know how to say these words. There's an arcuate uterus which is similar to a bicornuate uterus, but with less of a dip in the heart shape. It's like an oddly shaped heart. It's asymmetrical in my mind. That's how I envision it. There's an arcuate uterus, which means there's a divide down the two parts of the membrane wall. Then there's a unicornuate uterus, which is when the fallopian tube has an irregular shape to it. Then I always butcher this one. It's didelphys. I don't even know how to say it. Flannery: Sorry. I can't help you on that one. Meagan: I'm going to stop trying. That is when you are born with two uteruses which does happen. One baby can be in one uterus, and we can have another uterus over here. Those are all abnormalities of the uteruses. Of course, we have different shapes, sizes, and all of the things. I wanted to just have a link in the show notes for that as well so you can read more on each of those types of uteruses. Then tell me if this is the right link. I found Jackson's Chance Foundation.Flannery: Yes. That's what it is. Meagan: Why parking matters. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: It looks like this is inspired. It's a foundation inspired by another person's story, another NICU baby's story. It said that–Flannery: Yeah. I believe that Jackson's parents set it up. Meagan: Yeah. Wow. This story is precious and inspiring. Wow. These parents are incredible. Then it does show that you can donate or sponsor a parking pass. They talk about the why and all of that. This is so awesome. I'm going to make sure that we have that in the show notes. If you know a NICU baby, or you know someone who is going to have a NICU baby, don't be like Flannery and find out later. This is how we all learn, and this is how. We find out when it's too late, then we have to go to show on. So, thank you for sharing that tip. I've actually never heard of it, but that's probably because I'm not a NICU mom.Flannery: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it helps someone. Meagan: Yes. Thank you again so much for sharing your story.Flannery: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”Kerri is a labor and delivery nurse born and raised in Kentucky. The only thing on her first birth plan was not to have a C-section, yet it became her reality. We know many of you can relate.She had a medically necessary induction at 36 weeks due to preeclampsia. Kerri describes her experience with getting magnesium, aka a “flu in a bag”, seeing double and going in for a C-section. Her surgery was straightforward, but Kerri felt very out of it and disconnected. Kerri was very intentional about her plans for a VBAC. Her birth team was on board and supported her requests. Throughout her pregnancy, Kerri's greatest desire was to feel present for the moment of birth no matter the outcome. When labor stalled and baby had a hard time engaging, Kerri felt peaceful about requesting a second C-section. With things happening on her terms, Kerri's birth was the peaceful and healing experience she hoped it would be.Evidence Based BirthⓇ - The Evidence on VBACEvidence Based BirthⓇ - COVID ResourcesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a CBAC story coming your way today. If you did not know what CBAC means, that is Cesarean Birth After Cesarean. This is a topic that a lot of people avoid. I don't know, tell me, Kerri, who is sharing her story today. Do you feel like CBAC stories are sometimes avoided when you are preparing for a VBAC?Kerri: I think so. I know I avoided that as I prepared for my own attempted VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. Kerri: Yeah. I think that CBAC is something that we try to avoid because we all hope for that VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. We overlook it and it actually breaks my heart. I encourage everyone to listen, especially if they are wanting to VBAC, every VBAC story, but as well as every CBAC story for a lot of reasons. One, understanding maybe what led to another CBAC and two, the healing and the fact that it can be a peaceful experience. It's not the end. There are so many things to CBAC, I think, that are missed. It's the same thing with uterine rupture stories or things like that. I'm not wanting that, so I don't want to listen to that. Now, I don't want to shame anyone if they skip over a CBAC story, but I really encourage everybody to listen to all of these stories because they are empowering. They are uplifting, and they are going to help you grow in ways that you may not even know. Before we get into cute Kerri's episode, I wanted to share a review. This was actually left a little bit ago too, actually. It was in 2022. No, 2021. It says, “Going for my VBAC after two C-section in 2022”. It says, “Thank you so much for this valuable resource. I have been listening to your podcast since early in my second pregnancy. I found out I was expecting again 9 months after my CBAC, and I was immediately and depressed that I would be going through all of that all over again very soon. I am now 14 weeks, and I'm drawing strength every day from the stories you share. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have hope this time that it will be different.” Now, that's another good note to have. Even if you do have a CBAC, that doesn't mean that's the end. That also may mean you find healing in that, and you want future CBACs, right? You want to schedule that CBAC. I love that note about healing and strength. That's what all of these episodes are doing. Okay, Kerri. I am so happy that you are here. You are in Kentucky.Kerri: Yes. Meagan: Okay, were you in Kentucky for both of your births? Are you from Kentucky?Kerri: I have lived in the same small town my whole life. I live just outside of Lexington. It's a little bit bigger than it used to be, but it's still a small town to me. Meagan: Okay. Kerri: I have lived in Lexington my whole life. I gave birth at the same hospital where I was born. Meagan: Yeah, me too. I would say I'm boring. I'm boring. I haven't been anywhere, but I don't think it's boring, actually. I love Utah. I've been born and raised here. I actually gave birth at the same hospital for my C-sections and with the same provider who gave birth to me. Kerri: Oh, that's so funny. That's wild. Meagan: Kind of crazy, huh. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your beautiful stories. I'd love to turn the time over to you. Kerri: Yeah. I'm so excited to share. I've listened to this podcast quite a bit since my first C-section, so I'm really excited to be on today.Meagan: Well, thank you for being here. Kerri: My first pregnancy was already a surprise pregnancy. Me and my husband had just gotten married, and a month and a half later found out we were pregnant. It was already quite a bit of a surprise being pregnant. You know, pregnancy went well. The first trimester went well. Around 28 weeks, I had gotten COVID. This was November of ‘21. COVID was still fresh. I had gotten COVID, and I made it through that. I thought everything was going well, but from that point on, I just was feeling more and more sick. I had been a nurse for a while, but I was a new nurse to labor and delivery. I was working night shifts, so I just really attributed the way I felt to working nights. I'm just pregnant. I'm working the night shifts. This is probably what's wrong with me. Around 35 weeks, I just started feeling miserable. I had an appointment with a provider who wasn't my provider, but he was a provider I had worked with. At that appointment, my blood pressure was elevated. He said, “Let's just get a preeclampsia panel, and do a 24-hour urine just to be safe and see what's going on.”I did that, and I turned in my 24-hour urine. I went to work that night. That shift was miserable. I don't know how I made it through that shift, but I did. I got off that morning, and the provider called me that morning. He was like, “You have preeclampsia. You cannot work anymore. You're on light duty at home, and you're being induced at 37 weeks.” That was already quite a bit of a shock. I had been around birth just enough as a labor and delivery nurse. I had just already in my head pictured this beautiful birth experience that you see on Instagram, and I'm like, “This is already not happening for me.” He tells me that. I'm home for a few days, and I'm just feeling more miserable as I'm home. After that phone call a few days later, I checked my blood pressure, and it's severe at home. It's over 160/110. Being the nurse I am, they say nurses make the worst patients. I was just like, “I'm going to ignore this for a little bit, and we'll just see if this gets any better.” I check it again later that afternoon, and it's still super high. I called my husband, and we decided to go to the hospital. We get there, and my blood pressure was high, but it was not severe enough to do anything about it. They were like, “Let's just keep you overnight and see what you do.” Over the 24-hour period of being there for observation, my blood pressures just went up and up. I had some more severe, and they were like, “You know, it's time to have a baby.” I was just shy of 36 weeks at this point. They started a magnesium infusion to help with the preeclampsia.Meagan: Blood pressure. Ugh, did it make you feel yucky?Kerri: Oh, yes. Magnesium is awful. I feel for anybody who has to be on that. It was awful. We call it flu in a bag, and it truly is that. Meagan: Flu in a bag. Okay. I've never heard of that, but I can understand that based off of the way I've seen my clients feel. Kerri: Yeah, that's exactly how you feel. Flu in a bag. It just makes you feel yucky. We started that, and we started the induction process. We started with the Foley bulb. We put that in. That was in until the next morning, and it comes out. When it came out, I think I was 3 centimeters, but not very effaced. It was just an artificial 3, a Foley bulb 3. They were like, “You know, your cervix isn't very favorable. Let's do some Cytotec.”We did a few doses of Cytotec. They rechecked me after that. It was still not very favorable. I think this was the evening at that point. They were like, “Let's just take a break, let you have a meal, and we'll try this again.” We do that, and then we start Pitocin. We did that all night. The next morning, my provider checks me. I'm finally a 4. I was ecstatic. I was like, “Oh, I've made some change.” I was really excited. They checked me. I was 4. They break my water, and they're like, “Let's just see what happens.” I had gotten an epidural at that point because I was already pretty miserable from being on magnesium and all of these induction agents. I was like, “I really need some rest.” I was already epiduralized. The nurse who was taking care of me at the time was a really good friend of mine. She was like, “Let's do everything that we can to try to have this baby vaginally.” She did Spinning Babies. We did all of the positions that we could. They checked me again later and I was a 5. I was ecstatic, like, okay. We're doing something there. A few hours later, I'm starting to feel pretty miserable, more miserable than I had felt before. I look over at the computer, and I'm seeing double. I call out to my friend. I'm like, “I don't know if this is normal, but I'm seeing two of everything.” She was like, “No, it's not.” She calls my provider. He said, “Let's draw a magnesium level. Let's see what's going on.” So they did. My magnesium level was high. They decided, “Let's just recheck you. We'll see you if you made change. If not, we'll have to have a section.”They checked me. I was still a 5 at that point. They decided with everything that was going on, it was probably in the best interest of the situation to have a section. I agreed, but I was heartbroken. My whole pregnancy, my only birth plan was don't have a C-section, and at that moment, that was my reality. Everybody who was with me that day, they were my coworkers. They witnessed me have a full-blown panic attack over it, but everybody made it through that with me. They loved on me, then we finally went back to the C-section. I'm pretty out of it from the magnesium at this point and just having labored so long. They started the section. I felt like I could feel more than what I probably should have been able to feel. I let them know, and once they got the baby out, they gave me ketamine just to help with my pain. I was knocked out for 12 hours, so I don't remember my baby's birth at all. Meagan: That's hard. Kerri: Yeah. It was really hard. I feel like the moment I actually realized I had a baby was the next morning. There's a video where I'm like, “Oh my goodness.”Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Were you feeling any better by then?Kerri: I was still under magnesium, but I was feeling better. Meagan: Good. Kerri: The protocol, at least at the hospital that I work at in, is magnesium 24 hours postpartum just to make sure you still don't– Meagan: Yes, that is how it is here too, then they'll recheck things and if blood pressures are still elevated or anything like that, and if levels are elevated, then they'll remain, and if not, then they'll take you off. Kerri: Yeah, we did that for 24 hours. Once that was off, I finally got to go up to the mother/baby unit. I started to feel more normal at that point, but just that whole experience, I felt like I was just not even a part of. I was just there having the baby, but I didn't feel like I was actually there having a baby. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Did that carry onto the postpartum and future as stuff to process for you, or did it feel okay? Kerri: That was very hard for me because I worked with birth every day. I got to see these beautiful moments of people having their baby, and I didn't feel like I had gotten that. I don't remember my baby being born. You know, it's different. I had pictures, but nothing quite as good as remembering that. That was very hard, and it really affected me for a long time. You know, it still does. I would have loved to have been present in that moment. That just wasn't the reality for me. Meagan: Yeah. Have you done things to work through that, or anything to suggest for someone who maybe have experienced that or have been put under anesthesia where they just couldn't remember or be present in their birth?Kerri: For me, my faith is something that is very important to me. Praying and talking with God about it has really been helpful for me. It was still a beautiful moment. I've come to terms with that. Meagan: Good. Good. Okay, so baby number two. Oh, I was going to ask you, with being preterm, did they do a special scar or anything, or were they able to do a regular low transverse?Kerri: Just a regular low transverse incision. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome.Kerri: Yeah. So baby number two, we knew we wanted another one, and honestly, as soon as we were in that hospital room, I remember I told my husband that I never wanted to have a C-section again. When we started thinking about number two, we were going to start working towards having a VBAC. When she was around 20 months, I found out I was pregnant. Prior to the pregnancy, I had done a ton of research on what is the best way to get a VBAC, and what is the best way to prevent preeclampsia which is silly because we know preeclampsia can't necessarily be prevented. Meagan: Yeah, there are things we can do to try to reduce the chances, but there's nothing that we know for sure, concrete that this is what you can do to make sure you don't get it. Kerri: Yeah. My provider did have me start taking low-dose aspirin early on in the pregnancy, and I didn't get it again, but you know, I did all of this research like, what can I do? Looking back now, I think I put too much pressure on myself to try and prevent it. I found out I was pregnant when she was 20 months old, and we were so excited. We were just thrilled. We just couldn't even describe that. I was so excited to start doing what I could in the pregnancy to get my VBAC. That's all I could think about was my VBAC. I remember praying to God. I just prayed that this pregnancy I could have my successful VBAC. Then as the pregnancy got closer to delivery, in my head, I'm like, “I could have another C-section. I need to start thinking about this.” So then I shifted my mindset. I was like, “You know, if I have to have another C-section, it's okay. All we want is a peaceful delivery.” So that's what I kept telling myself every day in my prayers. I was like, “Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”Meagan: Yeah, I bet that was a really big deal for you.Kerri: Yes. I just kept saying that every day. That's what we're going to do. Peaceful delivery. Present delivery. I kept telling my coworkers because they were rooting for me. We were going to make this a better experience. My provider the whole pregnancy was great. She was very VBAC-supportive. I did a lot of research prior to the pregnancy about who I wanted to see, and I worked with these providers. It was a hard choice to make. I work with great providers, but I feel very confident in the provider I picked. She took such great care of me, and I'll forever be grateful for her. Towards the end of the pregnancy, me and her had a chat about what are we going to do to get our best attempt at having a VBAC? I ultimately decided that I wanted to be an induced VBAC. Not necessarily that I wanted to be induced, but I needed the peace of mind. I already had a lot of anxiety just because of the last pregnancy, and I just needed an experience where I could at least expect something. This may not end in a successful VBAC, but I really want to try. We scheduled the induced VBAC, and she was like, “This might not work.” We had a lot of conversations about that. She was like, “Induced VBACs aren't always successful,” which I appreciated her saying as a provider. I was like, “This is what I need just for my peace of mind.” We scheduled an induction. Everything was going great. I went in at night. I had gotten a Foley bulb again. My cervix wasn't favorable necessarily. I was 39 weeks on the dot. Maybe if I would have waited a little longer, I would have been more favorable. At that point, I wasn't the most favorable, but I still wanted to go through with it. I had wrapped my head around that that day was going to be her birthday and we were going to go through with it. We started with the Foley bulb, and it stayed in for what felt like forever. They put it in at midnight. It did not come out until 11:00 AM the next day. I was not expecting that because last time, the Foley bulb did not stay in that long. This time, I had made it to 39 weeks, and I was thinking that my cervix would do more, and it just didn't. My provider came in. She was able to get it out. She broke my water, and I was at a 4 at that point. It was ready to come out, but it didn't on its own. I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting a little bit more. Meagan: That can happen. It can be in for up to 12 hours and not fall out. That can happen, but I'm sure after your previous experience, you're like, “Wait. Why isn't this out yet?” Kerri: Yeah. We did that, and I decided she was going to break my water. Me and her and my nurse who was taking care of me was a really good friend. We were like, “Let's just get an epidural because we know that there is a bit of a higher chance for uterine rupture for being an induced VBAC or TOLAC.” Meagan: Were you feeling contractions at this point?Kerri: I was. I was feeling contractions. That was something, I kept telling my husband, that I was really excited about. With the last experience, I was really out of it having been on magnesium and having gotten an epidural so early. I just didn't even feel like I got to experience labor at all. Like I said, I didn't feel like I was a part of that experience. I was really excited this time to be able to experience contractions. While they were very, very painful, I was very grateful to have that experience. I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl. Meagan: Fentanyl?Kerri: Fentanyl, yeah. We used to do [inaudible], but right now, we have fentanyl. I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl, but I really tried to tough it out because I was like, “I really want this experience.” The whole pregnancy, I had been prepping for how I was going to manage labor while I didn't have an epidural. I had a friend who I worked with. She is also a doula, and she is going to school to be a midwife. She had talked me through a few different things that I could do. I had really prepared, and I was really excited to be able to experience some contractions. Meagan: Yeah. Kerri: But we had decided, “Let's get an epidural just to be safe.” We got an epidural, and everything was smooth sailing. We got the epidural. We started some Pitocin. I had asked for peace of mind for me, an IUPC which is the intrauterine contraction monitor because I wanted to know what my uterus was doing. If I was going to be an induced VBAC and I'm going to have a higher risk of rupture, I wanted to know exactly what my uterus was doing, so I asked for one of those to be put in. They put one in. My contractions were adequate. We were moving along. I'm just ecstatic at this point because I'm like, “I have never had adequate contractions. Last time, I made progress, but nothing like this.” I was very, very excited. Throughout the course of the day, me and my friend who was taking care of me decided that we were going to do every Spinning Babies position that we could do. My epidural was just perfect enough. I was able to help move by myself and do all of these positions that I had planned on doing. It was great. I was so excited. They checked me, and I was a 5. I was excited that I had made it a little bit farther than what I had thought I would because last time, I had stayed at a 5 forever. I was at a 5, and I was expecting to just keep making progress. A few hours later, they checked me again, and I was still a 5. My provider is like, “Your pelvis feels very tight, and your baby's head is not applied at all.” So then, I felt crushed in that moment. I had been planning on having this successful VBAC, and it doesn't feel like it's going to happen. Prior to the induction, I had been living in the Miles Circuit and doing everything I could to get her the best engaged she could be. She wasn't doing it. She said, “We'll give it a few more hours.” Meagan: What were your MVUs at this point? Sorry, I just interrupted you. Kerri: I think they were 200. They were adequate. Meagan: Mhmm, cool. Kerri: My contractions had been adequate for a while, and I wasn't on very much Pit. Meagan: Good. Kerri: I was thinking that things were going great. She was like, “We can keep going if you want. I'm going to stay with you. I'm going to do your delivery regardless of the outcome.” We decided we were going to keep going. A few hours later, I get checked again. I'm still 5. Her head's still not applied. My friend who was taking care of me was about to leave because her shift was over. She was like, “We can call it right now, or we can give it another shot.” She said, “You'll never get this experience again, so if you want to keep going, keep going, but if you don't, it's fine.”Kerri: I decided, “I want to keep trying.” I kept trying. Then a few hours later, I was checked again. I was still a 5. Her head was still not engaged, so we decided that we were going to have another C-section. That was heartbreaking. I remember in the moment feeling a little heartbroken, but also feeling at peace about it all in one. Meagan: Yeah, which is important. Kerri: Yeah. We go back for the section. I was nervous about having another section just because my first one was so traumatizing. I wasn't sure how it was going to go. I was really nervous about anesthesia. Is it going to hurt this time? Am I going to be knocked out because I'm feeling too much? The anesthesiologist who took care of me decided, “Let's just give you a spinal.” My epidural had fallen out actually, so she said, “Let's do a spina. Let's make sure you are the most comfortable you can be.” They did that. They started the section. I couldn't feel anything which I'm already thrilled for. I remember just laying there, and I felt so present during the whole thing. My baby came out, and I remember being a part of that moment. There was a clear drape, so I was able to see what was going on. My provider– I feel like we had developed such a good bond. She did everything to make sure that it was a good experience for me and to make sure I was present. Something that was important to me was that my baby would be with me a little bit longer while I was in the OR. I didn't have my baby with me last time, so I really wanted that. I didn't necessarily do skin-to-skin, but I got to hold her. She got to be with me the whole time, and it was perfect. She got to be with me during recovery. That whole birthing experience was just the most beautiful thing.Meagan: Good. So you have been able to walk away feeling positive about a birth experience. Kerri: Yes. That's not something I thought I would get with a C-section. After my first, I had a lot of postpartum anxiety. I had very negative feelings towards C-sections. I didn't enjoy seeing my scar. To me, that was just a reminder of what my body had done to me. I felt betrayed by my body, and for the longest time, I just was ashamed of the fact that I had a C-section. After that experience with my second, I was very proud that I did have a C-section because reality hit me that this isn't the most ideal way to give birth to a baby, but it happens, and thank God they are available, and I have two beautiful babies because of my C-sections, so I'm very, very thankful for them now. Meagan: Yes, good. Good. Kerri: When my husband and I decide to have another one, I'm like, “This will be great because I think that for me, I'll just have another repeat section, and it will be scheduled. It's going to be great, and I'm excited about it.” But it's just something to be able to look back and be able to think of this as such a positive experience as opposed to my first. I wasn't proud of my birth story at all. It was something I carried with me for a long time, and now, I'm thankful that I can have a different perspective about it. Even about my first, my first birth was beautiful in its own way.Meagan: Yeah. It's hard because you don't want to only think about those births as negative or traumatic. You want to pick out the positivity from it, but sometimes it is hard to see all of that, so it's been so great to hear that you– one, it sounds like with your labor, it really was a lot of your choice along the way. You decided this was something you wanted. Your team went with you and then walked with you along the way. In the end, it was able to be something that was a lot more healing. Even though it was still a Cesarean, it was a healing experience for you. You got to have your baby that whole time, and you got to grow through that experience. Like you said, you may choose to have a third C-section, and that's okay. I think that's one of the things I love about this podcast is that it's not if you choose a C-section, you are shamed. That's just not how it is. Everyone needs to choose what is best for them and their individual circumstances. I love that you've been able to go from the furthest end of the extreme to coming back, and then possibly if you have another baby, it sounds like something that you are already looking forward to having an even different experience. I love that you've been able to have that and you can share these stories and you can hold onto these good feelings because it really is important. Kerri: Yes. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I feel more positive about taking care of women who have C-sections because for the longest time, every time I went into the OR, it brought up feelings from my own first C-section. It was hard to be the best nurse that I could be when I was dealing with my own feelings, so I'm thankful now that I have this perspective of, “This is beautiful in its own way.” Every birth is beautiful. You're bringing your baby into the world. Who cares how it happens? I think we get so wrapped up in God made our bodies to give birth a certain way, and that's just not the reality for some people. I'm thankful we live in a society where C-sections are readily available and we can have them. They can be just as beautiful.Meagan: Yeah. CBACs really can be. My second C-section was very, very healing. I think it was exactly what I needed to have healing from my first birth that I didn't realize I didn't heal from. I was really, really grateful that I had the experience. Again, it wasn't the birth I desired, but it was such a better and healing experience for me. I was really, really grateful for those. Okay, I have two things that I want to talk about. One is preeclampsia. Not even just preeclampsia, but COVID. I was just wondering, as a labor and delivery nurse, have you seen things like preeclampsia or placental issues or anything like that from people who have had COVID during pregnancy? Rebecca Dekker has such an incredible blog, and I'm going to make sure to link it here. I have seen this weird connection with pre-e with a placenta or placental issues that have had COVID. I was just curious if you've seen anything like that. Kerri: You know, I feel like that is something that we've seen more of. I will say I started working as a labor and delivery nurse in 2021, so I can't speak for what nurses saw prior to this, but I do feel like I see a great deal of preeclampsia, especially during that COVID time. Women were having more complications. More women are getting more sick. I don't know if there's a correlation, but I will say that as far as pregnancy goes, it does seem like a lot of pregnancies are becoming more high-risk.Meagan: Because of that? Because of COVID?Kerri: I don't know if it's necessarily COVID or just the way we eat, the way we take care of ourselves, but I feel like during COVID, there were a higher number of combinations whether there's a correlation or not. Meagan: Yeah, that's interesting. I just barely read the most recent update. I need to dive into that more, but I was wondering as a labor and delivery nurse if you had seen that. You mentioned with your first that they had tested you, and your magnesium levels were too high. Are there things that can reduce magnesium levels? Obviously, maybe lowering the magnesium levels that are given, but are there things that can be done in that situation to lower their magnesium levels?Kerri: If your magnesium level is high, we can give you the reversal drug which is calcium gluconate. We can give you that, but we are already inducing, you and it's high, and you're not making very much progress, at that point–Meagan: The provider may not be wanting to do that. Kerri: Yeah, delivery is the best option.Meagan: Yeah, for preeclampsia, which we do know. I was just wondering if there was such a thing that could help. Kerri: Yeah. Ideally, just do what you can to deliver. But you know, that's something that people should talk to their provider about in that moment. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. I agree. Then last but not least, I just wanted to share a little bit more because I think a lot of people do question induction and VBAC. What are the risks? Sometimes, the risks seem astronomical, and sometimes they are not to some people. Everyone takes it differently. I wanted to share some evidence on that. With the risk of induction, it does increase just like you had mentioned. It does increase the risk of uterine rupture when we are induced. It's about a 1.1% if you have Pitocin and about a 2% if you have prostaglandins, and then of course, we know misoprostol. How do you say that?Kerri: Misoprostol, but however you want. Meagan: Yeah. I saw misoprostol, but I've heard people say MYsoprostol. It is about 6%. It definitely increases with certain things that you do. It's about a 1.1%. Uterine rupture in general is just around 1%. It increases it ever so slightly, but it's really important to take the right precautions. A Foley bulb is a fantastic way to start jumpstarting labor, but sometimes it does need to have a little bit of an opening, at least 1 centimeter. Kerri: Where I work, we don't do Cytotec for TOLACs. Meagan: Most people shouldn't.. Kerri: It's a 1 to 1 assignment. Your nurse who is taking care of you wouldn't have another patient. Meagan: Interesting. Kerri: They make sure that all hands are on you and make sure that your uterus is okay. When it came down to me when I was thinking about wanting to TOLAC and hopefully have a VBAC, I looked at the risk. I think it's important. I listened to a podcast. I think it was by Jordan Lee Doulie. She had an OB on her podcast talking about VBAC. He said, “It's important to remember that there is a risk whether you're having a repeat section or you're having a TOLAC.”I really took that to heart. For me, the risk of uterine rupture is small enough that I want to try. I know that I'm going to be in a hospital. I know I'm going to be monitored, and if that's something that's happening, I know I'll be taken care of quickly. I was okay taking the risk. I think that has to be such an individual choice. It does carry risk as well, so that's why I needed to at least give it a shot. I'm somebody that I fully support whoever wants to have a VBAC after two sections, but for me, that's not something I want to do. But as with everything, you have to look at both sides of it and make your decision. Meagan: Yeah. I think that's what we talk about on this podcast. Learn the risks. Learn the facts. Learn what the evidence says, and then follow your heart. What feels right? I appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing your journey. I do love how much you were able to be a part of your birth that second, and then also your postpartum experience is so important. Kerri: Oh yeah. I'm 11 weeks postpartum now, and I just have to say that my mental health this time is so much better, and my recovery post-C-section was so much better. I really have such positive things to say. It was such a good experience. I'm forever grateful for everybody who took care of me. I'm forever grateful for my provider. I just love her dearly and am just so thankful for her. Meagan: Good. I'm so grateful for you. I'm so glad you had that support and that loving team. Thank you again for sharing.Kerri: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

One of our team members, Paige, joins us today to share our first maternal assisted Cesarean story on the podcast! Our favorite Julie joins too sharing her perspective as Paige's birth photographer. Paige tried three times to have the vaginal birth of her dreams. Each time ended in emergency Cesareans due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Each time, she missed the golden hour that she so desperately craved. Each time, she learned more and more about birth.With her fourth baby, she exchanged her VBAC dream for a new one. After hearing about maternal assisted Cesareans, she decided to do all she could to pursue one fully knowing it may not happen. But when it did, it was everything she hoped it would be and more. Paige's Full Birth VideoHoum ClinicDayana Harrison Birth ServicesJulie Francom Birth PhotographyYouTube Video: Maternal Assisted Caesarean Section - The Birth of Betty MaeThe VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220: Dr. Natalie Elphinstone & MACsThe Birth Hour Episode 875: Nicole's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in MichiganBaby Baking & Kid Raising Podcast Episode 6: MACs with Lauren BrentonAustralian Birth Stories Podcast: All Maternal Assisted Cesarean EpisodesYouTube Video: Nottingham University Hospitals Maternity Gentle C-sectionCBAC Support Facebook Community How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Oh my gosh, you guys. Today is a very special day. It's a very, very special day. We have our own team member, Paige. If you guys haven't already seen the video floating around, go to Instagram today and watch what we've got posted. We have Paige, and we have Julie, and they are actually in Korea. Now, Paige lives in Korea. Julie flew to Korea to be the photographer for Paige. I was over here in Utah having FOMO as they were Marco Poloing me when she was in labor. You guys, I am so excited. I can't explain to you the love that I have for Paige. She has been on our team for so many years. I'm getting emotional. I have seen this woman transform into the most amazing, strong individual. She has created something so special for her family, and I think, for Korea. This is our first official Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast. Seriously, my eyes are all watery. I just cannot wait to hear this story. Julie was just saying how she's been dying wanting to call me this week while she has been in Korea, but she didn't want to share her story because it is Paige's story, but I love that I get to have both of them on the show. So hello, you guys. I'm sorry. I just am rambling. Paige: Hi. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. We have Paige. We have Julie. You guys know who they are. Julie, obviously, has been with The VBAC Link for a long time, and so has Paige.Julie: Been with The VBAC Link for a long time? Yeah.Meagan: Yeah, sorry. You created it. Julie: We created it. Meagan: Yeah, sorry. I'm thinking of Paige. Paige has been with The VBAC Link for a long time. If you didn't know, she actually heads the CBAC group, the CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and she transcribes all of these incredible episodes. So thank you, Paige, and welcome everybody.Paige: Thank you. So yeah, I'm just sitting here in my little corner of The VBAC Link team doing my transcribing which I feel like maybe is just a little drop in the birth world bucket until something more happens for me. I've been with The VBAC Link for the last 4 years, and I feel like it's my way of preserving these stories. Spending time with the women on the podcast is such an honor, and it's just one of my favorite things to do. I've learned so much, and truly, we'll get into it, but I wouldn't have had this birth experience in the same way if it were not for The VBAC Link and for being on the team. So truly, thank you to both of you. You've changed my life. All right, what's that?Meagan: I was going to say that you've made our life better. Paige: Aw, thank you.Julie: Yes, absolutely. It is so cool to see this. Me and Paige were just talking last night about this and how it's kind of a full-circle moment. We were going over her other births and how we got here and how she got here. It's just so cool. I am so thrilled about how everything played out. There were so many little miracles. I think miracles is not the right word. There were so many special blessings and things that led her to this point. I cannot wait to hear all of it from her perspective. It's so fun to be here and share on the podcast and really, this story is going to change lives. It's going to change lives. It's going to change birth. It is going to be something that people talk about and use as inspiration and hope as they prepare for their own births, no matter how they birth because there's a lot of advocacy involved. I think that's the biggest thing. There's a lot of advocacy. Paige did a lot of advocating for herself and what she wanted. It doesn't have to be literally the same way that she birthed for anybody to take inspiration from it, so I would just encourage everybody to listen because she is such a good example of fighting for what she wants, and shifting and rolling with the punches. I am just so inspired by Paige. You mentioned it too, Meagan. I am just so inspired by how she has approached all of this. Yeah, there are lots of life lessons. Lots of life lessons in this birth. Meagan: Yes.Julie: Stay tuned, everybody. It's a good one.Meagan: All right, Ms. Paige. We're turning the time over to you. Let's hear it because I cannot wait. Paige: Okay, so I'm going to start with a brief overview of my first three births. I'm a mom to four boys. I never thought that would be my story, with four C-sections. I never thought that would be my story, but it is, and it's beautiful. For my first birth, I got pregnant in September 2015. We were living in Hawaii at the time, but moved to Lawton, Oklahoma. I received prenatal care there at the Army hospital. It was pretty straightforward, just the What to Expect When You're Expecting type prep. They have this program called the New Parent Support Program which is really great for new families.  A nurse comes to your home, educates you, and gives you resources. I did that. That was really nice. I had a friend who was a doula. We took a hospital childbirth class and watched things like The Business of Being Born, but other than that, I was mostly just really afraid of childbirth in general. I was afraid of dying. I just wanted to survive. I didn't really have any specific birth preferences. I have struggled with anxiety and panic attacks throughout my life, so I thought that if I could just survive, that would be a big win. My OB was a family friend, and I felt very safe with him. He had a great bedside manner. I didn't really push any questions. I just trusted him fully and completely. At 34 and 6, I noticed that I started leaking fluids. My New Parent Support Program nurse had advised me that if I had noticed any kind of new discharge or anything like that– colorless, odorless fluid to go and get it checked out immediately. So I did. My husband drove me. I remember I had not eaten lunch, but it was lunchtime. I was like, “Oh, just drop me off. This will be fast, then we will go get lunch.” The midwife there tested the fluids and confirmed it was amniotic fluid. I remember my OB walked in. He said, “You are leaking amniotic fluid. We need to have this baby today. The baby will be fine at 35 weeks, and it's better for the baby to come than for you to stay pregnant basically and risk an infection.” So I was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I trust you.” I got a steroid shot for lung development at 35 weeks. Then they started me on an IV with antibiotics because I didn't have my GBS test back yet. Then he also told me that the Army hospital there did not have a NICU to support a 35-weeker and that I would need to be transferred to the civilian hospital in town. So I would have to be transferred. Since I was already on an IV, they were just going to do it via ambulance. It was my first time ever riding in an ambulance. He also said that he legally wouldn't be able to deliver me, but he would go with me and help me make decisions. That was really nice of him to go, but still just the sheer fact that I was going to be riding in an amublance for the first time, I was going to be having the baby that day, and then I was going to have a completely new doctor, was just sheer overload going into a birth that I was already afraid of. Yeah, it was not the best circumstances for a successful induction. I arrived at the hospital. I met the doctor very briefly. I called my doula friend. She came and helped me. We did what we could, but ultimately, my body was just not showing any signs of being ready. I had no contractions at all. I was completely closed and not even soft. No dilation. My cervix was just not showing any signs of progress. After about 14 hours on Pit, they came in. I remember I had the dull cramping from the Pit, but nothing really intense. I also just remember being so painfully hungry, and they wouldn't let me each. But since I hadn't had lunch, I was just so hungry where you get the body chills and stuff. Anyway, the doctor came in, said he was having decels. He recommended having a C-section because my water had been broken for over 12 hours. I consented. I was so afraid. I remember when they were putting in the spinal, I was just heaving sobs into this poor nurse. You go in and prep. The C-section itself was fine. My arms were strapped down. I didn't feel pain, but I remember it was like an elephant was sitting on my chest. It was like, “Oh, it just feels like somebody's sitting on my chest.” It wasn't horrible, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. But then, he was whisked away to the NICU. I briefly saw him swaddled with a hat on, then he was whisked away. No skin-to-skin for my husband or me, obviously. He was 4 pounds, 14 ounces at birth. They wouldn't let me go see him until I felt ready to go. I was just so swollen from all of the fluids. I was so nauseous anytime I would sit up. I just was not ready in any state to try to go walk or be wheeled to the NICU. Finally, 36 hours after delivery, I was able to meet him. We named him before that over FaceTime, but he was in the NICU for 7 days. I wasn't traumatized because I survived and that was my goal. I met my goal, and I was really proud of myself for facing the fear, but hoped for something different the next time. With the second birth, I got pregnant in July of 2017. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage early on that resolved. We were in Texas at the time. It was Fort Hood back then, but I met with many different OB providers at the Army hospital on base there. I felt okay with it because I had a neighbor who was going for a VBAC after two C-sections. She was really supported, and then she had a successful experience there. Because of my 35-week PPROM, they suggested that I go on the Makena progesterone shots once a week from 16 to 36 weeks. I did that. They worked very, very well. I switched to the midwife track because everything was going fine. The midwives were really great. They were really holistic. They supported inducing a VBAC if needed, but they also supported me going into spontaneous labor past 41 weeks. I made it to 41 and 5. The VBAC Link was not a thing back then yet, so I did not have that resource, but I did read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way. I read The Birth Partner. I kind of started dipping my toes into real birth education. I was learning about the physiological process of birth, learning how to do it without being afraid, and learning to trust my body. It was really empowering. It was the prep that I needed at that time. I didn't know about bodywork. I ended up having prodromal labor for about a week. It was pretty intense, but I didn't know anything about positioning, posterior, or Spinning Babies. I did find that out right at the end as I was going through it, but I didn't do chiro or any of that. I finally went in for an induction at 41+5 in April 2018. I ended up having to go with an OB on call because the midwife didn't feel comfortable with the NSTs that she saw, so she didn't want to take me on. I was like, “Oh, dangit.” The OB who was there was one who I wasn't really super comfortable with. But he was like, “Oh, well I know you really want a VBAC. We'll try to get that for you.” I was like, “Okay.”I got a Foley. I was barely a 1, but they got a Foley in and I progressed very quickly. I got to a 5 within a couple of hours. Things were going really great. They were very normal labor patterns. I felt like I was managing the contractions really well. I did consent to artificial rupture of membranes, then labored a little while longer. I got an epidural at 7 centimeters. I was told, “Oh, we just had a mom who got an epidural. She relaxed, and the baby came right away.” You hear that and you're like, “Oh, I want that. Yes.” So I did that. I got the epidural at about 6:30ish, and then between that half hour, his heart just wasn't doing well. They were flipping me. I got an amnioinfusion. I got a fetal scalp electrode. I got an IUPC, all the things. Then they gave me oxygen. It was probably about 7:00. He had a prolonged decel. I was lying flat and there were people all around me. The nurse was just like, “We need him now. Do you consent to a C-section?” I was like, “Yes.” Then I surrendered and let it go. I was like, “There goes the VBAC. This is just what needs to happen.” He was born at 7:09, and I was born under general anesthesia for that one. His APGARS were 8/9. My husband was left alone during that surgery. We do have pictures of him holding my son and doing skin-to-skin at 7:27, so about 20 minutes after he was born. I woke up and got to hold him at about 8:45, so about an hour and a half after he was born. I remember it was just really hard to talk after being intubated, but they let me breastfeed right away. I was disappointed, but I don't feel like I had a lot of trauma from that just because I was so empowered. I ended up ultimately making it to an 8. It was so fun for me to see what my body could do. I was like, “Oh, this just means that I was meant for a VBAC after two C-sections. That's what it meant.” Right then in the OR, or I guess it was the recovery room. I committed that that was going to be my story. I was like, “Oh yeah. That's just what it's meant to be. That's why it didn't work out.” I was so empowered. Then when I got pregnant for the third time in September 2019, we were in Germany. We had just moved there. I hit the ground running. I hired a doula right away and a backup doula. The prenatal care was at this small, tiny clinic in a town called Parsberg. I chose not to get progesterone shots. I was like, “I was 41+5. I think I'll be okay without them.” Yep, that's when I discovered The VBAC Link and all of the birth podcasts. I just became obsessed listening all the time, taking notes. I did the bodywork. I watched tons of birth videos. I did cranioscral therapy, chiropractic, and Spinning Babies. I took The VBAC Link Parents Course. I read lots of books. I switched my insurance. I took vitamins. I consumed it all, and I loved it. Every time I did something, I felt like my intuition was confirming that I was on the right path. I specifically would manifest, visualize, and pray, and I just was on this high every time. I feel like that's your intuition confirming to you that you're on the right path. If you feel those things, that's a good sign. You do want to follow that. Meagan: 100%. Paige: I did. Then, COVID. It was September 2019 when I got pregnant. Things were fine, fine, fine, and then COVID started happening. In March, I flew home to Denver to stay with my in-laws. We were supposed to move to Colorado in the spring anyway. My husband was not allowed to come with me. There was a travel ban for 90 days. I just did not want to get stuck in that, so I flew out very quickly with my boys– my two boys. I was 27 weeks pregnant and was living in my in-laws basement. That's a whole thing. COVID was a whole thing for everybody. But it was a scary time and stressful. I didn't know if my husband would be able to make it to the birth, but he was granted an exception to policy leave where he was able to come home. He would have to go back. That was the contingency. But I had rebuilt my team. I had found new bodyworkers. I found a new doula and a new backup doula. I found a team of midwives who were really VBA2C supportive. They were saying things like, “When you get your VBAC,” not if. They really supported all the things, so I felt really comfortable with them. I lost my mucus plug and had bloody show on June 8th. I was 40 weeks. That was my due date. My water broke that night at 11:00 PM. I had a small pop, so it was just a litte bit. I was laboring at home. Nothing really was picking up, but on June 9th, at 40+1, I went into the hospital around 3:00 PM. Labor started picking up pretty quickly after that. About an hour and a half later, my waters gushed everywhere which was really thrilling for me to experience the big gush. I was not very far along, though. My progress is just very slow, but they were not rushing me at all. They were like, “We'll stay patient. We will stay very patient. There is no rush. As long as baby is doing well, we'll just let you do your thing.” My doula was there. After my waters broke, my contractions started coupling on top of each other and getting very intense. They were quite long. I started feeling really lightheaded and dizzy. I tried to sit on the toilet and just felt like I was going to pass out. I threw up a few times. I knew it was time to get some pain relief. They offered the walking epidural option which I took at about 8:00 PM. Baby was doing great. I was really worried about getting the epidural again because I felt like that's what had caused the craziness before, but he was doing great. At 2:00 AM, he started not doing great. He wasn't tolerating the contractions well. I was like, “Oh, not again. What?” I was only 4 centimeters. I just knew that we needed to go in again. I didn't know why, but I was so sad. I didn't want another crash, so I did want to prevent another crash. I knew that if it was going to be a heart thing, I didn't want to mess with that. Especially knowing the signs of pain and coupling contractions and things like that, it just seemed like he was telling me that he needed to come. I consented to the OR and to the C-section. I was wheeled to the OR. I remember as I was being wheeled in, I was just thinking, “This is not what I want. This is not what I want. This is not what I want.” I was so sad. He was born about an hour later. I was so drowsy. I was so tired. I was not present at all. I did not feel strong enough to hold him. My husband held him. I briefly brushed his face. He was wearing his little hat and was swaddled, then they took him to the recovery room. The doula was not allowed in the OR. It was actually a miracle she was allowed at all because they had just lifted the doula ban the week before for COVID. I was like, “Okay, the baby will be in there with her.” I'm not sure why they wouldn't let the baby just stay with Sam, but it's okay. I needed his support. I was really happy that he was there. Closure took longer than usual. They said I had pretty thick adhesions, so I was just laying there trying everything to stay awake. I was fighting so hard. I remember reading words on the light and looking at the letters and just going over the letters in my mind and trying to stay awake. I was fighting so hard to stay awake. I finally got to hold him at 4:00 AM in the recovery room. It was still about an hour after he was born. I missed the golden hour again. I was so sad. I was so sad for a third time to miss it. That recovery was really hard. In the hospital, I was so heartbroken. The trauma this time really hit me emotionally and spiritually. It was physically a lot more traumatic on my body for whatever reason. I mean, just the sheer labor was so intense. My incision was black and blue and puffy. I couldn't walk normally and I didn't feel normal for 5 or 6 weeks, but I also feel like it's because I was so sad. I think how sad you are really does affect how you feel physically. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Paige: I do remember specifically too, my first shower there. My husband had to really help me walk over. I was so sticky from all of the sensors and monitors. He was so tenderly trying to help me wash them off. I was just sobbing. I was so sad. I felt so broken and so vulnerable. It was a beautiful time for my husband to be there and carry me because he knew how badly I wanted the VBAC that time and for him to just carry me through that. But going home, I went home to my in-laws' basement. It was dark. I didn't have a support village because it was COVID. COVID moms know what that was like. Anyway, ultimately, I did reach out to Meagan and Julie. That's when the CBAC group was started. I was like, “Is there any way we could start a CBAC support group where CBAC moms can connect?” You guys were so warm and welcoming. Immediately you were like, “Yes! Why hadn't we thought of that?” Julie, you were so gung-ho about that. I was able to connect to other moms through there which was so healing. Anyway, that was the third story. Then the time between three and four was really, really pivotal for me. The healing that I felt I needed before even thinking about trying to get pregnant was where I feel like this all really starts. When you don't get the birth that you hoped for or when you don't get a VBAC, you just feel embarrassed. You feel ashamed. You feel broken. You feel like your intuition doubted you. You feel dumb. I've seen many women comment how family members would be like, “Oh, I knew it wasn't going to happen for you.” It's hard. It's really hard. You feel very, very broken.I knew that I had to show up for myself and still give myself grace. For this birth, it was good for me because I was able to face not failure, but being wrong. I was able to face being wrong and show myself that I could still be there. Anyway, I started physically diving into healing through pelvic PT and doing a lot of scar adhesion work. The dolphin neurostimulation tools if you haven't heard about those are fantastic. I feel like they worked much better for me than scar massage. I wish I had a provider here now who would do it. I think maybe that would have helped this pregnancy and birth, but it helped my recovery so much.I started having really bad panic attacks and postpartum anxiety, so I went to talk therapy. I got on medication. I went to a chiropractor again. The thing that really, really helped my healing was joining a gym and falling in love with exercise again. I got into all of the things, the yoga, running, learning how to lift, and started really pushing my body again and trusting my body again. I didn't expect exercise to heal that relationship with my body, but I feel like it really did. I learned again that I am physically strong which was really, really nice. I started signing up for some races. I ran my first half marathon. I had a lot of emotional releases during yoga. There was one song that came on one time during a yoga practice. It said, “You can't rush your healing. Darkness has its teaching.” I loved that so much. I just started crying. I was just like, “Let it out.”Part of healing is welcoming the grief when it comes, processing it, and taking it a little bit of a time. It's such a process. You get little glimmers of understanding, but as you keep committing yourself to looking for that and looking for the understanding, it does come. I truly believe that. Anyway, life went on. There is a four-year gap in between my third and my fourth which I really needed. We moved to Korea in that time. We moved to Korea last June, and it's just been lovely. We knew that we wanted one more. I knew I was so happy with the prep and how vigorously I did it. I was proud of myself for that and I knew that I wanted to do it the same way.I knew that after everything I learned, even if it was going to be a C-section, I couldn't just show up to the hospital and have them take my baby. I knew too much. I was like, “I know that there are better ways. I know that providers practice differently from place to place. I know it's not all equal. I know every provider does things differently, even with C-sections.” I started watching videos, and I saw that even the way they performed their C-sections was not the same. I wanted to be really actively involved in how they practiced, and how I was going to be a part of it. My goals for this time were not necessarily VBAC or C-section. I never closed the door completely. I was like, “You never know. Maybe VBA3C, maybe that's my story. Who knows?” However, I did find the episode by Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. As I was transcribing that one, my fire for birth that I held felt for VBAC was coming to life again. That intuition was speaking to me, and I had not felt that fire in a long time. That was the first whisperings of, “You should try this. You should go for this.” The goals that I had for this baby were to be very intentional. I wanted the golden hour. I had to have the golden hour. I had to hold my baby first or within an hour. Please, oh my gosh. I carried so much guilt for not having that three times over. I also wanted to be treated like I mattered. I did not want to be part of a rotation. I wanted continuity of care. I did not want to feel like I was just being shuffled through a system. Whether it was a hospital or not, I knew that I wanted to feel special. Lo and behold, did I know how special I would feel at my sweet birth center. Okay, so with the intention thing, just the pieces of this birth story with number four started falling into place so specifically. I can't deny that spirituality was a big part of this because with number three, my prayers had been very, very specific. I knew that God knew what I wanted. I knew it. I knew that because I didn't get it, there was a specific reason why. That's the only thing I could cling to. As things specifically started falling into place, it started to confirm to me that this was my path and these were the reasons why the other things happened the way they did. But anyway, I got pregnant very quickly with this baby. It was the first time that it wasn't a total surprise which was really fun. I had been taking tests since I knew the day that I ovulated, and then I was just taking tests watching, watching, and watching. I was able to see the first faint line which was so fun. I had always wanted that. I had wanted that moment of, “Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant,” where before it was like, “What? I'm not quite ready,” but I was still excited. That was really fun for that. The Korea birth culture here is very intense. The C-section rate is 50-60%. There are constantly stories being shared on these local pregnancy pages of women just having the most traumatic experiences and my heart aches for them. It's very routine for doctors to suggest first-time moms to, “Go have a C-section. Your baby is big,” and not even trying to labor. Most of it is because there is a doctor's strike going on here. There is a limited number of providers. They are stressed. They don't allow husbands typically in the OR, and very routinely, they are under anesthesia. Then after birth, babies are typically taken away to nurseries, and then postpartum recovery is in an open bay type thing. Meagan: Like, combined? Paige: Exactly, yeah. Your C-section stays are typically about 8 days. I wanted to explore options. We have an Army hospital here that is pretty big and does provide labor and delivery services, but they're often maxed out so you're referred off post. I did not feel comfortable going to any of the places that they typically referred to just from stories I had heard. That's all it takes for me now. I just hear one story and I'm like, “Nope, no thank you.” I know my red flags very quickly now. I went to a tour at this birth center called Houm. It's spelled H-O-U-M. At 8 weeks, I went to go tour it. I noticed a lot of green flags, not red ones where I was just like, “Oh, I'm just going to take a note of that.” Some of the green flags from my tour as I walked in were how I felt right when you stepped off the elevator. It's this calm energy. The lighting is so beautiful. It's such a lovely set up right when you walk in. You take off your shoes because you are in Korea. You take off your shoes, then multiple staff members greeted me with a hug. That's when I met Dayana Harrison who I later ended up hiring as my doula, but she also served as my midwife. She is a student midwife working there right now. She took me on the tour. They have queen-sized beds in their labor rooms. The whole floor was dim and so quiet. It did not have a hospital vibe at all, but they do have an OR on site. I was like, “Oh, this is lovely.” They offer epidural. They have huge birthing tubs with the rope attached from the ceiling. They are so beautiful. Yeah, it's in each room. Then the OR on site does not feel like a hospital OR. It's smaller. They keep it warmer. It feels like– I don't know. It just had such a homey feeling. That's the best way I can describe it. Then some of the things I asked about, in their routine gentle Cesareans, moms routinely get skin-to-skin immediately. They have a little cut open in the curtain where baby is slid through right on your chest. They routinely would keep the placenta attached to the baby in the OR which is–Meagan: Almost not heard of. Paige: Since posting that video, I can't believe how many messages of, “How did you do that?” That's revolutionary in itself. That was a huge green flag where I was like, “Oh my gosh, what?” Typically, what is it? Why do they say you can't do that? Is it because the incision is open too long?Meagan: Yeah. They don't even allow delayed cord clamping most of the time. They just milk it because it's a major surgery. The more time the mom is exposed and open, the higher chance they have of things like infection. Once baby is out, they really want to wrap it up and finish it to be complete. Yeah. To actually leave a placenta attached to a baby is unheard of. It really is unheard of in a Cesarean. Paige: Yeah. So that was super awesome. Then they let you keep the baby. He encourages C-sections past 39 weeks. That's not a routine hard and stop final date. He encourages going into labor before saying that it's good for the baby. He encourages breastfeeding in the OR. The head OB, his name is Dr. Chung. He is also an IBCLC which I thought was so awesome. So he supports breastfeeding.Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. The more I learn about this man, the more I love him. Paige: Did you not know that?!Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I want to meet him. Julie: I want to put him in my pocket and take him with me to deliver every birth I ever go to ever. I love him. Paige: I've literally said the exact same thing, Julie. I wish I could just keep him with me forever. That's the thing. Throughout this whole process, I kept taking note of these green flags. I'm thankful for my other experiences because I don't think a lot of people recognize how green these flags really are. I was like, “Okay, the shoe's going to drop. The shoe's going to drop. There's something.” I'll keep going.Meagan: Can I mention too? You had Marco Polo'd me, “I'm on my way,” then you would leave, and you were like, “This is amazing.” You were just like, “This is right,” every single time. The more you went, the more it verified that you were in the right place. Paige: Yep, yeah. You just know. When you know, you know. During that appointment, he came specifically and talked to me three times. Three times. He shook my hand. I'm like, “Are you not busy? What? Three times, you have time to see someone who is just touring?” He only sees 15 patients. He is very VBAMC supportive and experienced with it. He supports vaginal breech birth. They do ECVs on-site. I didn't even bring up VBAC after three. I just mentioned that I had three C-sections, and he said something like, “Oh, do you want a VBAC? Do you want to try again?” I was like, “Oh, I mean, I don't know. I'm thinking about it.” Then, he made me cry. This was at the tour. He made me cry because he said, “I'm a different doctor because I listen to moms. I listen. They tell me how they want to birth. If you want a VBAC after three C-sections, I will support you. You can do it. You choose how you want your birth to go and I will worry about the bad.” He was like, “You don't need to worry.” I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I started crying. I was like, “Okay, I'm going to go now.” I was not composed, and then he hugged me. I was like, “What? Who is this guy?” I didn't just jump over there. I did give the Army hospital a chance. I went to a couple of appointments there, and that was kind of all I needed to know for what I wanted. I'm so thankful they are a resource there. I'm thankful that they are here. But I did ask about their routine Cesarean practices and their VBAC practices. It was important to me to find a doctor who supported VBAC even if that wasn't what I was planning to go for. I still love VBAC so much. I think it's so beautiful and such an important option for women to have. I'm so passionate about it. I always will be. They didn't even humor the idea at all of VBAC after three. They were like, “Oh, no. You're going to have a C-section. Of course.” The idea was laughable. The C-sections only allowed one support person, no breastfeeding in the OR, no photographers. Arms are strapped down. I just was like, “Okay.” I was very gently asking questions, but then was like, “Uh-uh. Red, red, red flags.” My biggest piece of advice, and we say this over and over again, is to find a provider whose natural practices align with the things that you want. Julie: That is it. That is it so much. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt again, but let's put bold, italics, emphasis, and exclamation points on what you just said. Say it again. Say it again for the people in the back. Paige: Find that provider whose routine practices align as closely as possible with what you want. Julie: Preach, girl. Preach, girl. I love it. Paige: Because we're not meant to fight. You do not want your birth experience to be a place of fighting or stress. Julie is learning that I am a people pleaser. I'm not anything special. I did not stand my ground. I'm going to do this. I did not come blazing in. I found a provider who I felt very, very safe with, who I felt safe asking for this from, and he said yes. I knew that because his practices were so close to the MAC, he would be the most receptive. But there's a chance that he wouldn't have been, and he was. That's why ultimately it worked out because he was receptive. I couldn't have forced him to do it, but because he practices closely to it already, it wasn't as much of a push. If I tried to go to that Army hospital and introduce this idea, they'd just shut it down. Meagan: You know, that's what is so heartbreaking to me. Providers all over the world really just shut that down if it doesn't match their normal routine and their everyday thing. It's like, well, hold on. Let's listen. Why are people requesting this? Just like Dr. Natalie, she saw this and was like, “This is something that means something to people. Why don't we change the norm and create something different?” Providers, if you are listening, please try and make change in your area because it matters, and it doesn't have to be exactly how it's been. Paige is living proof of this. It just doesn't have to be that. But we can't make change if no one puts forth the effort or allows it. Paige: Dr. Natalie said that exactly. She said, “Let's make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Paige: She said, “If there's a way to make it better, why not? Why not?”Meagan: Why not? Because like it or not, birth impacts us. It sticks with us. You're now explaining four different stories. It's not something we just forget. We don't just walk away from these experiences. They stay with us. Now, we might process and are able to move forward in a different direction, but it's not like we forget, so why can't we make this change? It actually baffles me. Julie: Well, and the mode of delivery is the same. I really want to emphasize that. She has had four C-sections, and they were all very different. But the only one where she left walking out of it really feeling empowered is the last one where she chose a provider who aligned with what she desired for her birth, she had a say in her care, and she felt loved and supported the whole way. She felt like the staff cared about her needs.But also, time out. She didn't just feel like the staff cared about her needs. They did. They did actually, genuinely care about her needs and her experience. I feel like that's such a big difference. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Sorry, Paige. You can continue. We got on a little soapbox. Paige: You're good.Julie: I feel like we're starting to tell the story before the story is told. Paige: No, it's great. We're getting close. I switched to them officially at 20 weeks. My first appointment was the anatomy scan. That's when I also proposed the idea of the MAC officially. After every ultrasound, he comes in, talks to you, looks at it, then you go into his office area where you just chat and ask any questions. That's just the routine setup of the appointments. I had this video prepared, and I was really nervous. It's scary. It is scary to ask your provider for something new and different. I had this video. It's on YouTube. It's by Olive Juice Photography. Everybody should go look at it. It's the birth of Betty Mae. It's the video that I watched over and over and over again because it's the only video I could find of the process from the beginning to the end including all of the prep and including how it was done. I was like, “I saw this online. I was wondering if you could watch it and tell me what you think.” That's how I presented it. It's a long video. It was like, 5 minutes. He just sat there patiently and watched. Then after, actually one thing he did say was, “I don't like how he's using forceps.” I was like, “Oh, green flag.” Then, he asked, “Is this what you want?” I said, “Yeah. I think it would be really special if it could happen.” Then, he said, “Then, we can do that.” Then, he thanked me for giving him the opportunity to grow and try something different. He said, “Will you email that video to me and any other resources?” I emailed Dr. Natalie, and she sent over a MAC PowerPoint that she had prepared of the procedures because from the episode, she was like, “Anybody interested doing this, reach out to me.” She is true to her word. She will do that. If you are interested and you want to contact her, she is very responsive. She sent me also her MAC hospital policy which I forwarded to him. I have to share what he said. He's so cute. In the email response, he said, “I watched the video you sent again. If necessary, we will contact Dr. Natalie to prepare for your perfect Cesarean delivery. Thank you so much for this great opportunity to serve you. I am excited to help your birth and confident it will be a great opportunity for further growth for us.” I was like, oh my gosh. Meagan: That literally just gave me the chills. Paige: I could not believe it. Dayana, who is also a student midwife there at home, told me that she had been planting seeds for maternal assist for a while. They had just been waiting for a mom to ask for it. That was also the time that I hired Julie. I was like, “Julie, that would be so fun if you could come out.” Then Julie was like, “Okay, let's do it.” Then I'm like, “Okay.” Then it happened, and Julie was just so brave to have the gumption to come out. Fun fact, she was previously stationed out here with the Army. It does seem like it all kind of worked out that Korea wasn't so out of touch for her, maybe. Julie: Yeah, no. It was really cool. You had mentioned it briefly, then I was like, “Oh, I wish I could make that work.” Then, I remember I was in the CBAC group. I was like, “Oh, I'm so excited for you,” or something, then you said something like, “I really wish you could come and document it. We would cover your travel out here and everything.” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, really?” So then I talked to my husband about it. I was going to be gone for a while. He would have to hold down the fort and everything. I talked to him and he was like, “Yeah, I think that would be okay.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, Paige. My husband is fine with it. Let's do this.” I remember the day that you booked my flights and officially signed my contract and locked in and everything, then I told my husband and he was like, “Oh, this is really happening then?” I was like, “Nick, I gave you the change. I gave you the chance to eject. It's too late now.” He's been doing really great. He's a really great dad. The on-call life means he has to just take over the house at random moments. We are set up to where we can do that. It was just really funny. I'm so excited that we could make it work. Paige: This is my public thanks to Nick and all of Julie's children for allowing her to be here because it did require sacrifice on their part, truly. I'm just so thankful. I also found out, Dayana told me that she had been asked to prepare a whole presentation for the staff on MAC which she did. She prepared it for nurses, midwives, and anesthesia walking them through. The fact that she had that connection to Houm and that experience, she served as my doula but so much more. She was so much more as my advocate having that inside access to the staff. We scheduled a surgical rehearsal for 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, this was one of my favorite things. He personally was there to walk me through every step of what it would look like for my security, but I don't feel like I really needed it because I was very, very familiar, but for the comfort of the staff and everybody else too. I got to the appointment. My husband was able to be there with me on that one. The way it's set up– we'll post our video then you can visualize more of what the layout looks like. There's the prep room, then literally 10 steps across is the OR right there. In the prep room, they had a gown ready for me. They had the washing bins ready. So the way that it works, you go in. You put the gown on. You have the IV. They showed me where they would place the IV. Then you scrub up your hands. You wash with the sterile solution, and then they put gloves on top. This was the way that they did it. Then they walked me into the OR. They showed me how I would go sit up on the table, how I would receive my spinal through anesthesia, then they practiced laying me back down. They did everything step by step. It wasn't new to me. I've had C-sections before, so I knew, but it was just so sweet that they were so thorough. They showed me how they would insert the catheter. He showed me exactly how he would lay the drapes over my body. He showed me when the curtain would go up. The way they do it, you're not just watching the whole thing the whole time. You could, I guess, opt for that if you wanted to. You have the drape up, they do the initial incision, get the baby out up to his head, and then they drop the curtain. That's when they pull your arms down. The other thing too, the reason why they do strap your arms down is in case you impulsively reach down and touch your incision and breach the sterile field. That's the reason why arms being strapped down is even a thing. But for MAC, your arms are not strapped down obviously. They have somebody holding their hand on your hands which I don't think I even had. Looking back, I don't remember anybody touching my hands or my arms. But that wasn't an issue. It wasn't something that I impulsively wanted to do, to reach down there. Anyway, then the drape goes down. They guide your hands up and over to put your hands under his armpits. Come up. Bring your baby to your chest. The curtain goes back up during closure, and then they talked about how I'd be transferred back to the recovery room– not the recovery room. No recovery room. You go to the postpartum room immediately. I felt on such a high after that. It was just so beautiful how he did that. At 38 weeks, I had an ultrasound. They do ultrasounds at every appointment. I don't know that there is a perfect practice out there that aligns with absolutely everything you want. But they do routine ultrasounds. I wasn't really concerned about that, but they did flag something called kidney hydronephrosis. It's basically the swelling of the kidney. They had been monitoring that. It had presented late in the third trimester, but it was severe enough that they were starting to get really concerned about it. Basically, it can mean that there is an obstruction, and if it's really severe, it can mean that the baby needs to be evaluated within 48 hours of birth by a pediatric urologist which clearly they don't have on site. It was a whole thing. If it really is severe and there is an obstruction, then they need to do surgery really promptly to prevent kidney damage early on. That was the thing. He did suggest that I could deliver somewhere else, and then the baby would be able to be there and we would be together in the same facility. That's when I felt like the shoe dropped. I was like, “Why would he suggest that? He knows that I would not want to deliver anywhere else. Why would he even bring that up?” I was all a mess. I was alone at that appointment. I felt a little bombarded and ambushed. I was like, “This isn't going to happen. I'm not going to get it.” That night, Dayana called me. I was getting ready to reach out to her, but she called me. She was like, “I just wanted to check in.” I had emailed Dr. Chung a clarification email. I think that's really important too. If something doesn't sit well with you in your appointment, it's okay to follow up in an email just to clarify what happened. Can you lay out these options? Can you lay out what we went through? Can I have a record of the ultrasound and what you saw? Because then you're not just swirling these things in your mind. You're actually looking, then you can do your own research. I dove into research. I dove into studies. I compared the numbers that he gave me versus what I saw, and it all did align. She called me and she was like, “No, don't worry. He is comfortable moving forward. He thought that you would be concerned, so he wanted to present you with more options to deliver somewhere else, but he is very happy to deliver you here still and sticking with our plan. He does want to see you at a follow-up ultrasound at 39 weeks,” which I was comfortable with. I was like, “Sam, you've got to come with me. I can't go alone.” She promised that she would be there. That's another thing. When you have a team that you trust, make sure that you are supported, and it's not just you and your doctor. If there's something that doesn't sit well, it really helps to field it with other people not just in labor, even in your prenatal appointments or anything like that. If you feel like you need some extra support, it does really help to bring some people with you who you trust. So at 39 weeks, we all met as a team and asked lots of questions. We felt comfortable with a care plan moving forward. We ultimately decided that we would move forward with the C-section at 39+5 which would be Monday. I'm trying to think what day that was. Meagan: The 7th. Paige: Monday, the 7th. Meagan: That's what I had in my calendar. Paige: Monday, the 7th was the day. We talked about moving it up. All his colleagues were like, “No, you should deliver this baby now. What are you doing? You're crazy keeping her pregnant.” I was like, “I am comfortable waiting, and I have to wait for Julie, so it can't be until Friday. It can't be until Friday.” She gets in on Thursday. That was Wednesday, at 39 weeks. Thursday was 39 and 1.Julie was on the plane, and then that morning on Thursday, I lost my mucus plug at about 8:00 AM. I was like, “Oh, no.” I wasn't really having contractions or anything, so I was like, “Okay. We'll still make it until Monday. It's fine.” Then, Julie got in at about 7:00 PM. I started having some baby contractions. We were sitting around my kitchen table, and Julie was like, “Are you contracting right now?” I was like, “A little.” She was like, “Go take a bath.” Then, we went to bed. I took a bath, and then I went to bed. I was for sure just contracting. I was like, “But what about these logistics? What is going to happen?” Anyway, my childcare plan was going to be turned upside down and all of the things. I was stressed about the logistics. But then, I was woken up at about 10:00 PM by contractions. They were about 6-7 minutes apart, but they were definitely real. I thought they were prodromal, so I was just waiting for them to just go away. They started getting closer. They were close enough to about 4 minutes and sometimes 3. I was having more bloody show, so I was like, “These are kind of doing something.” The intensity increased. It got to the point where I couldn't lie down. I was on my hands and knees. I was standing up, bracing myself against the wall. I was trying to do different positions. Maybe it was just a positional thing. “Let me try to do flying cowgirl. Let me try to do Walcher's”. I was trying to do different positions to try to stop them. I tried to take a bath at 3:00 AM, and they weren't going away. I was like, “Okay, I can't do this. I can't risk it. We've got to go.” I woke up my husband. I was like, “Today's the day. He's just telling me that it's the day. It's time. I don't know why, but it's Friday. It's supposed to be.” At 4:00 AM, he packed his bags. At 5:00 AM, I felt so bad because Julie had just gotten in from this huge international flight. It was a 12-hour flight plus some because you had a connection. I was like, “Julie, we're going to go,” she was like, “Okay!” She was so excited. “Okay, let's go!”Julie: I wake up to a knock on the door, and they're all dressed and ready to go. I'm like, “Why did she not wake me up sooner? I could have supported you.” Paige: I felt so bad. Julie: Yeah. It was wild. It was so wild. I was ready. It was awesome. Paige: So at 5:00 AM, we left for the birth center. At 6:00 AM, we got there. I messaged my team. Dayana said she was on her way. They led me to my room which is just a beautiful suite. It's right next to the OR. They led me to my room. They said that the anesthesiologist would be ready at about 10:00 AM, so between then, I would be laboring. Dr. Chung came in, and he said, “You need to be prepared for a VBAC to happen. You might have this baby just right here.” It was so funny that he was supportive of that idea even. It was so cute. I labored. It was getting intense, but they weren't super close together. Dayana came. She jumped in, and she immediately just respected the space which was so beautiful. She started doing all of her– she's a Body Ready Method practitioner. She's done some training with Lynn Schulte and the Institute for Birth Healing, so she's very familiar with the specific way to give you comfort measures. She was so great. I felt so safe. We labored, and my husband gave me a beautiful blessing. She said the more beautiful prayer that really invited heaven into the space and made it so spiritual and special. We were playing music, then at 9:00 AM, the head midwife, her name is Joy, came in. She started the IV.Dr. Chung came in and walked me to the prep room. In our rehearsal, I was going to be scrubbing myself, but he just picked up my hands, and he started washing my hands and scrubbing my hands for me. It felt like such a selfless act getting ready to go into this procedure. It felt like he was so respectful, and then I even had a contraction during the washing. He stopped what he was doing and was so respectful of the space. It just felt so Christlike having him wash my hands going into it. Then we walked into the OR, and they got me ready for anesthesia. They put in the spinal, and then they laid me down. They did the pinprick test. They gave me a new gown that was sterile. I'm trying to think of what else. They inserted the catheter. I could kind of feel a little bit with the pinprick test, but the catheter insertion was just pressure, so I felt comfortable moving forward. They got started. We played music. They had ice ready for me on my face because I told them when I get nauseous or anxious, I tend to get a little lightheaded. They had ice ready for me. That was something I had requested, and that was so nice. They started the surgery, and it was very, very intense. I do want to be candid that it was probably my most painful surgery. I had to work through it with labor-coping stuff. I was vocal. I did mention that I was feeling pain. It got pretty intense. I don't know if in Korea in general– I know that they are a little bit more stingy about anesthesia, but it was okay. I don't feel like I was traumatized from that. The baby came out at about 10:24. That's when they say he was born. We were listening to music. I was vocalizing, then Dr. Chung says– what did he say? “Let's meet your baby,” or “Come grab your baby”, or something like that. They lowered the drape, and it was so fast. I bring the baby up onto my chest, and everything just melted away, and this instinctual, primal– all of these emotions I didn't know I had just poured out of me. I lost any sense of composure that I had. I was shrieking. In any other situation, I would have been so mortified, but that moment of not having it three times over, it was this release and this justification or this validation of finally having it. I just got to hold my baby. I was a little nervous about seeing a new baby for the first time without being swaddled and how they would be wet and slippery, and if that would freak me out a little bit, but I wasn't worried about that at all. I was just so happy that I had him and so relieved. During closure, that was also intense too. They put the curtain up. They pulled out the placenta. They put it in a bowl, and then they put it in a bag, and they rest it right there next to you. The cord was so lovely and so beautiful. There is something about a fresh, new cord. It is so awesome to see. I thought it was the coolest. I had my husband. I was squeezing his hand. Honestly, I felt like having my baby in my arms and holding my husband's hand was the best pain relief. In that moment, it was keeping me calm, keeping me steady, and getting me through the closure and the rest of the surgery.Then they transferred me to my postpartum room, and they just let us be there. They didn't push cutting the cord. Dayana gave me a placenta tour. I was like, “When do we cut the cord?” She was like, “Whenever you want.” It ended up being about 2 hours of us just enjoying it and talking about how cool it was. Yeah. She gave us a tour. I was able to wear gloves and touch it and go through it, then Sam was able to cut the cord for the first time which was so awesome. That's the gist of it. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I started crying. I've gotten chills. I have so many emotions for you just watching your video. I've literally watched it 10, maybe 15 times, and I can't wait to see Julie's entire thing that she caught. But I am just so– there are no words. I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you, and I've talked to you about this. I've Marco Polo'd you crying before where I can't explain it. I am so insanely proud of you and happy for you that you got this experience. Thinking about, “I've never seen a gooey baby. I've never had that opportunity. My husband has never been able to cut the cord,” and you were able to have this beautiful experience where you got to have all of those things. It took four babies to get there, but you got there. You got there because you put forth the work. You learned. You grew, and you were determined. I think as listeners, as you're listening, sometimes that's what it takes. It's really diving in, putting forth that effort, and finding what's true for you. I know it's hard, and I know not every provider out there is like Dr. Chung. He is a diamond in the rough from what it sounds like on so many levels. But they do exist. Again, going back to what you were saying, sometimes it just talks about Paige going in and saying, “Try to have an open mind. Look at this video. I would like for you to view this. Just take a look at it,” and left it in his hands. Sometimes, it just takes something so simple. But, oh my gosh. I can't believe it. We were Marco Poloing about episodes, you guys, before she was in labor. We were also Marco Poloing about social media posts. She was like, “I just don't want to say anything until it happens.” I think sometimes even then, I wonder if that's where that ultrasound had come in and maybe there was doubt. I don't know. It seems like maybe that aligns pretty well with the time that we were messaging and that. Maybe we were Marco Poloing or texting. I don't know. It's like, could this happen? Is it really going to happen? You want it to happen so bad, and then to see it unfold and to have it unfold in such raw beauty, oh my goodness. I cannot believe it.So in the OR, they let Julie in there, right?Paige: Oh, yeah. Dr. Chung is a photographer himself. Julie had asked me to ask him if she could move around or if she had to be stationary. He was so open to her walking anywhere and having free range of movement and having multiple sources of video and photo. Julie: Yeah, it was really cool. I want to speak a little bit to that side of things if that's okay for a minute. Being a birth photographer is kind of complicated and sometimes logistically crazy especially as the baby is being born because everybody has a job to do. Not every provider and nurse is supportive– maybe not supportive. Not every provider and nurse is respectful of the fact that I also have a job to do and that these parents are paying me not a small amount of money to come in and do this job. That is very important to them to have this birth documented in a special way.It can be tricky navigating that especially times ten when it comes to being in the operating room. I have about a 50% success rate of getting in the OR back home. Some hospitals are easier than others. It's always an honor and a privilege, I feel, when providers create a way for me to go in the OR because Cesarean birth is just as important, maybe even more important to have documented because it comes as a healing tool and a way to process the birth especially when most Cesareans are not planned. It was really cool to hear ahead of time about how supportive Dr. Chung was and how amazing he was going to be to let this happen. When we were in there, I don't think I've ever moved around an OR as much as I have in that OR. Providers will tell you, “Oh, you're not allowed in because the operating room is so small. Oh, the sterile field, we want to make sure you don't pass out when you're in there.” I think all of these excuses that people give are just regurgitating things. They don't want another person in the OR. It's just kind of dumb because that was the smallest OR that I have ever been in. I still was able to document it beautifully. I respected the sterile field. I wasn't in anybody's way. People were in my way which is fine because they had a way more important job to do to make sure Paige didn't bleed out and that the baby was born and that Paige's needs were met and things like that. I'm okay. I'm used to navigating around people in the space. I'm perfectly comfortable with that. It was so beautiful. I was down at her feet. Paige, I've actually been going through your images and choosing ones to include in your final gallery while you've been talking. I cannot wait to show you this. I have images of Dr. Chung pulling his head out, still images, of the head being born through the incision. It's like crowning shots. It is this beautiful image of this baby's head being born. Obviously, you've seen the one of his head all the way out. I just think it's so beautiful. I consider it such a privilege and such and honor to have as much freedom in that room. I was literally at her feet, Meagan, documenting while he was cutting her open the adhesions and all of those things. There is video. There were images. I have chills right now. And then as baby was born, I was able to move up by her shoulders and document that and her reaching down for baby. I have all of that. I think that is such one more reason why Dr. Chung is amazing. It is such a rare gem, a diamond in the rough, because Paige now has the documentation for this beautiful story, and it's just one more thing where we have work to do. We have lots of work to do, lots of work to do, and lots of advocacy with people asking for this. I just think it's so important and so cool. It's such a rare thing. I don't even think I would have been able to do all of this back in the States. Meagan: No. Julie: I just think it was so cool. I'm determined to get these images to you before I leave so we can look at them together. I cannot wait for you to see them. I can't. I'm just so excited. Paige: Well, it just makes me think of how often you've said, “If you don't know your options, you don't have any.” The purpose behind this, and why I felt I really did want to go for this option, and what was pulling me to it, is because I want to create options for women and to show them what's possible. That's why I wanted Julie to come. I wanted her. I told her specifically, “Document every step of the process so that women have more resources to see the ways we do it.” I didn't do it exactly like the Olive Juice photography video. There are little variances between it, and that's okay. But it was still so beautiful, so wonderful, and then also, I asked her to document the surgery itself because so much of it is going back and trying to process it in your mind while you're going through it. I'm so glad she did. We walked through it last night, just the moment when I was in the most pain. It was actually really wonderful to see what he was doing which I wasn't in the space to see at that time, but to go back and see, “Okay, that makes sense because he was maneuvering so much,” and to connect it. The connection piece was so valuable. For every Cesarean, I'm so passionate now that you need a doula. You need a midwife in there. You need a birth photographer. You need everybody in there. I knew it, but now, I'm so passionate that we need to advocate for ourselves just as much for planned Cesareans. Meagan: Absolutely. I still can't believe it. I'm so happy. I love this story so much. I believe everyone should hear it because like you said, we need to be educated so we can apply what we need. We don't know what we don't know. This is what we've heard for so many years, but we can know. We can know our options, and it does take us doing it most of the time. The medical world out there is trying sometimes. Sometimes, they are not trying as well. But they are trying. They are also capped in a lot of ways with resources and with time. There's just a lot that goes into it. So, dive in, you guys. Learn. Follow what you need. Follow what your heart is saying. If your heart is saying, “I want a different experience, it's okay to push for that different experience.” Paige: Yeah, definitely. I'll attach a lot of the resources that I used to help me in my prep. But I did just want to cap off by saying that I don't feel like I'm anything special. I am not a birth worker. I am not a nurse. I don't have a history of medical stuff. Dr. Chung was so cute. He was joking that I was a surgeon and getting ready to go do the surgery, but I've always been squeamish at blood and things like that. Don't feel like you don't want to go for it because you're afraid that it will be a scary thing. It is such a natural, beautiful thing. It doesn't feel as medical as it might seem. And even if you are scared, I was scared. It's okay to do it scared if you think that it might be something beautiful and if your heart is, like Meagan said, calling you to it. We're just moms, and moms are powerful, and that's enough. Meagan: I love that. Julie: I love that. I think it's really important. Paige, first of all, you are special, and this is why. Not everybo

“In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her.”How do you feel when you meet with your provider? Are you excited for your appointments? How does your body react? Are you tense or calm and relaxed? Jessica's first birth began with an induction that she consented to but didn't really want. Her waters were artificially broken, and her baby just was not in a great position. After over 4 hours of pushing and multiple vacuum attempts, Jessica consented to a Cesarean. Listen to Jessica's VBAC story to find out what she did when she realized at 37 weeks that her provider was NOT actually VBAC-supportive.Sometimes difficult situations actually work out even better than we hoped!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Jessica, to the show. I am so excited that you are here and excited to hear your stories and actually talk a little bit more about what you do. Do you do it for a living, or is this just your passion project or whatever they call it? Is it your side job?Jessica: It's on the side. It's volunteer. My main job is a stay-at-home mom right now. Meagan: Yes. You're homeschooling, right? Jessica: I am. Meagan: Oh my gosh. One of my best friends homeschools. I just praise you guys. Homeschooling is legit. It is very hard. That seems so hard. Jessica: It's definitely a lifestyle. It's different. It's not for everybody, but it's definitely for us. My daughter is only 5 so we are just getting used to it. Meagan: So Kindergarten?Jessica: She just turned 5 a couple of weeks ago, so we are technically doing 4-K right now. We are just getting into it. I'm still wondering every day, “Am I doing everything I should be?” I know as it goes on, I will get more comfortable and confident with it. Meagan: Yes, you will. That's what I've seen with my friend. She was like, “This is what feels right. This is what we are going to do.” It took a little bit of a learning curve, then each kid added in, but she kills it. Yes, you are just a stay-at-home mom, but a full-time teacher. Holy cow. That's amazing. Then yeah, you are doing La Leche League. Jessica: Yes. I have been a leader now for 2.5 years, just over that. I became certified. I think it was on my due date. I was trying to get everything done before my toddler was born. It's been going really great. I really like it. Meagan: Yes. Tell us more about it because when I was– this was in 2014– pregnant with my second daughter. That's when I heard about La Leche League. Tell us more about it and why someone would want to find their local leader, and then what all the benefits are and how to find them. Jessica: Sure. I first heard about La Leche League when my oldest was maybe about 9 months, so right away in my breastfeeding journey, I had no idea about it. I wish I had because it would have been great to have a community of support. I started feeling really passionate about breastfeeding and knew I wanted to help other moms with it because it can feel really isolating, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic. I started researching ways that moms can help other moms with breastfeeding because I had no other background in it. I'm not a nurse. I didn't work in the labor world. I just stumbled upon it, and I lived in Madison at the time. I saw that Madison had a chapter. They weren't doing meetings at the time because everything was virtual. But I just reached out, and I said, “I want to be a leader. Tell me what I need to do.” They emailed me back, and I got in touch with another local leader there who had been there for a while. She was surprised. She was like, “You want to be a leader, but you don't even know what we do. You've never been to a meeting.” I just said, “Yes. That is what I want to do.” It was kind of a long process to become a leader because everything was virtual. They didn't know how to go about that. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: So it took a little bit of a long time to become accredited as a leader. Meagan: Does it now or is it in person? Did it stay virtual? For someone who may want to?Jessica: I think everything is back to in-person. At least where I live now, Madison I know is back to in-person now too. Everything is probably running a little bit more smoothly now in terms of if you are interested in becoming a leader. Basically what leaders do is that we get some training within La Leche League, but we are your cheerleaders. We are here to support you. We are the middle ground between if we need to refer you somewhere for some additional help if it's beyond our scope of practice of basic breastfeeding positioning, latching, or if you have questions of, “My baby is doing this. Is it normal?” That's what we do. We have support groups every month for anybody to really join. Meagan: Awesome. Jessica: It's fun. Meagan: Where can someone find it if they're wanting to learn more? When it comes to breastfeeding, it sounds weird because you don't have your baby yet, so why are we talking about breastfeeding? Why are we thinking about it? But I really believe that connecting before we have our babies with an IBCLC or a La Leche group is so important before you have your baby. If someone is looking, where can they find information or try to search for a chapter in their area? Jessica: You can just look up your state La Leche League. There should be a website that has all of the local chapters. They are all over the world, so you should be able to find somebody near you. Even if there's not one near you, you can contact anybody. Let's say they are 2 hours away. You can still call or text or email. They'll usually, if you want to do something more in person, you can do some type of Zoom meeting. You can definitely find anybody to talk to. You're right. It's really important to get support before you even start breastfeeding if you know that's something you want to do. I always say that breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn't always come naturally. You don't know what to do in the beginning unless you talk to somebody. Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to have the website linked in the show notes too, so if anyone is wanting to go search, definitely go check it out. Okay, now we are going to give a little teaser of what your episode is going to be about today. So, with your C-section, give us a little teaser of what your C-section was for. Jessica: So, my first birth went really smoothly and my pregnancy. I really liked my doctor. I really liked the hospital. It was a group of OBs of all women. I met with each of them. I really liked all of them, to be honest with you. They were all very supportive of whatever you wanted to do.Meagan: Which is awesome. Jessica: Yes, it is. I knew I wanted to have a vaginal birth. That was all I really knew, but I was also really young, I think. I was 23 for most of my pregnancy. I didn't really educate myself beyond my doctor's appointments. I trusted them to pretty much tell me what I needed to know, and that was it. That was my bad. Meagan: Yeah. Hey, listen. That is something I can relate to so much. I was also in my young 20s and just went in. Whatever they said, or whatever my app said, is what happened. I think that's a little tip right there that says, “Let's not do that.” Let's not do that. Then for your VBAC, you had a bait and switch. I'm really excited, when we get to that point, to talk about bait and switch because it is something that happens. It can feel so good and then feel so wrong within minutes. It's really frustrating, but I want to talk more about that in just a minute. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to hurry and read that, then get into Jessica's story. This reviewer is by diabeticmamawarrior. It says, “A podcast to educate the mind, heal the heart, and strengthen the soul.” It says, “Hi. I am writing this podcast from Seattle. We are currently pregnant with my second baby due in March of 2022.” This was a little bit ago. It says, “My first son was born at 28 weeks via classical Cesarean due to severe IUGR.” For anyone who doesn't know IUGR, that is intrauterine growth restriction.“--and after hearing I would never be able to VBAC, I decided to do as much educated research as I could and to find my options was truly needed. I am also a Type 1 Diabetic and have successfully found an amazing midwife who not only feels comfortable and confident assisting in care through my pregnancy with my diabetes, but also with my special scar, and we are aiming for a successful VBAC. I am also receiving concurrent care with an OB/GYN as well to make sure appropriate monitoring of baby looks good throughout pregnancy. Listening to this podcast was one of the first resources I found, and it was a total GAME CHANGER.” It says, “Thank you, beautiful women, who bravely and shamelessly share your stories so that other women can also feel confident in making empowered decisions for their baby and their body. I am soon to join the legacy of women who have fearlessly VBAC'd happy and healthy babies. Much love, Ellen”. Meagan: Wow. What a beautiful review. Jessica: That was powerful. Meagan: Yes. What a beautiful review. That was a couple of years ago, so Ellen, if you are still listening, please reach out to us and let us know how things went. Okay, girl. It is your turn. It is your turn to share, just like what Ellen was saying, your beautiful stories, and empower other Women of Strength all over the world. Jessica: That review just reminded me that a long time ago, I reviewed the podcast, and you read it on one of the episodes. Meagan: Did we?Jessica: We did. I remember thinking, “This is so cool. I wonder if I could be on someday.” I'm sure you hear this all the time, but it's very surreal being here knowing I listened to this podcast to help me heal. I'm just super excited to share my story. Meagan: I am so glad that you are here, and I'm so glad that we were able to read your review. We love reading reviews. It is so fun when we can hear the review, hear the journey, and then now here it is hearing the stories. Jessica: Yes. Meagan: Yes. Okay, well I'd love to turn the time over to you. Jessica: Like I said, I was introducing my story with my first. I just clicked through a birth course breastfeeding course that the hospital provided for me. I clicked through it to get it done and to check it off my list. Meagan: Birth education– yes, I did. Jessica: That's exactly what I did. I'm prepared, whatever. I'm just going to go into this, and everything will happen like it's supposed to. Mentally, everything was going well in my pregnancy. I wasn't super eager to give birth. I wanted to wait to go into labor on my own. I think what started to bother me or what made me a little bit more antsy was when I was 37 weeks. I agreed to have my cervix checked for dilation, and I was 3 centimeters already. I was so excited, and the doctor said, “I don't even think you're going to make it to your due date,” which made me think, “Wow. I'm going to have this baby in the next 2 weeks. I'm not even going to make it to my due date. This is so exciting.” If any of your doctors ever tell you that, don't let it get into your head because that doesn't mean anything if you are dilated. I was 3 centimeters continuously. Meagan: Yeah. You can walk around at 6 centimeters, not even kidding you. My sister-in-law was at 6 centimeters for weeks, and nothing was happening. She was just at 6 centimeters. It can happen when you are just walking around. Try not to let them get into your head, or to get nervous when you're like, “I could have a baby at any second.” It gets in our heads, and then when we don't have a baby, it's infuriating and defeating. Jessica: That is pretty much what happened. When I got to my 39-week appointment, I was still 3 centimeters. I just expressed how I was frustrated. I was tired of being pregnant. My doctor said, “Well, let's set up your induction.” I had never even thought of being induced at that point. It was never mentioned. It never crossed my mind. It sounded so intriguing at that moment to just get this over with. I don't want to be pregnant anymore. My sisters had been induced, and they had a good experience. It will go the same for me. Everything in my head was telling me, “Don't do this. You know you don't want this,” but I did it anyway because I had it in my mind that I should have had my baby already anyway based on what they told me a couple of weeks ago, so it would go so smoothly. She said, “You are a great candidate. You are already 3 centimeters.” We scheduled it. I think it was that Friday I went. It was Monday, on Labor Day, that we had my induction scheduled for. I didn't have a lot of time to even process that. Meagan: Yeah. Did they say how they wanted to do it, or did they just say, “Come in. Have a baby”?Jessica: They briefly told me that they would start with Pitocin and see how my body responded to that. They would probably break my water which is exactly how it happened anyway. Meagan: Yeah.Jessica: Yeah.They started me with Pitocin at 3:00 PM. They kept increasing it, then by 6:00 PM, my body was just not responding to it. I didn't feel anything. The doctor who was on call wasn't my normal doctor, but I saw her a couple of times. I was comfortable with her. She came in and said, “Well, we could break your water. Is that what you want to do?” I said, “Sure. If that's what you think we need to do, let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah, I'm here to have a baby. What's going to get me there?Jessica: Yeah. She was head down, so I thought, “What could go wrong? She's already head down.” I didn't know at the time that just because she was head down doesn't mean she's in a great position. She wasn't. She was– what do they call it?Meagan: Posterior? Jessica: ROT. Meagan: Right occiput transverse. Okay, so looking to the side. Sometimes, when we say transverse, a lot of people think the body is transverse which is a transverse lie, but ROT, LOT, left or right occiput transverse, means the baby's head is looking to the side, and sometimes, that can delay labor or cause irregular patterns because our baby is just not quite rotated around or tucked. They are looking to the side. Jessica: Right. That was pretty much what the obstacle was because when they broke my water, she engaged that way, so her head never was able to turn properly which we didn't know yet. I feel like the doctors could have known that because aren't they supposed to be able to feel and know maybe a little bit of where they are? Meagan: Yeah. So providers can. They can internally, and it depends on how far dilated you are. If you were still 3 centimeters, probably not as well, but at 3 centimeters AROM, where we are artificially breaking it, that's not ideal. Usually, the baby is at a higher station at that point too. I call it opening the floodgates. We get what we get however that baby decides to come down, especially if baby is higher up and not well-applied to the cervix.If baby is looking transverse and hasn't been able to rotate right during labor, then they come down like that, and then we have a further obstacle to navigate because we've got to move baby's head. I will say that sometimes a baby might be looking transverse and mainly through pushing, a provider can sometimes rotate a baby's head internally vaginally, but you have to be fully dilated and things like that. Can they feel through the bag of waters? If they can feel a good head, yes. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can't, but again, there are all of these things that as a doula anyway, I help my clients run through a checklist if they are going to choose to break their water. Sometimes within your situation, I'd be like, “Maybe let's wait.” But their view was, “Let's get labor going. We are starting Pitocin. The body's not responding,” which we know is a number-one sign that the body isn't ready. Sometimes we still can break water with better head application and with the water gone, it can speed labor up. That's where their mind was. Their mind probably wasn't, what position is this baby in? Where is this baby at? What station is this baby at? It's like, let's get this baby's head applied to the cervix. Jessica: Yes. I mean, it did work. As soon as my water broke, I immediately when into active labor. The Pitocin contractions were very awful. I felt them immediately because not only did my body start going into labor, but then the Pitocin also was making it worse. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Jessica: So I begged for an epidural right away even though I knew that's not what I wanted. I didn't do a lot of preparing for labor, but I know I didn't want an epidural right away. I remember the very sweet nurse I had saying, “Do you want me to run the bath for you?” I said, “Are you crazy? That is not what I need right now.” Meagan: She's like, “I'm trying to help you with your birth preferences.” J: I know. She was so nice. I apologized to her after later on when I saw her. That was the head space I was in. I just needed that pain to be gone. They ended up turning the Pitocin off eventually because my body just did what it needed to do on its own. Meagan: Good. Jessica: I didn't get much rest after that. I couldn't really sleep. I was too excited. But it wasn't very long until I was ready to push after that. I think at about 7:00 PM, I got the epidural, and at midnight, I was ready to push. I kept trying and trying. 4.5 hours went by until she was just not coming over. I don't know if it was my pelvic bone or something. That's when we knew she was not going to turn. They suggested that we try the vacuum. I didn't know what that was. That was very traumatic because the lights were bright. Everyone was in there. I remember my doctor saying, “Okay, we have one more attempt with this vacuum, and that's our last attempt.” Of course, it didn't work because in my mind, I knew it was my last chance. It was not going to work, and it didn't. I was really upset after that. I remember crying saying, “I don't want a C-section.” I was really afraid of it. But, that is just what we had to do to get her out at that point after attempting the vacuum. I remember being wheeled down to the OR and just being so tired and not knowing how I was going to take care of a newborn after having surgery and being so tired. I had been up for 24 hours. The C-section went fine. I was out of it though. I was passing out here and there just being so tired. They had to tell me to actually look up. “Your baby's here. Look up.” I remember opening up my eyes going, “What?” I was forgetting what I was doing. Meagan: Out of it. Jessica: Yeah. I was very much out of it. But after that in the hospital, I wasn't too upset about having a C-section. I was just so excited about having my baby. It really didn't hit me until we were on the way home from the hospital. I started crying and was so upset. I felt like my experience was stolen from me because I felt like  I was so mad at my doctor for bringing up an induction at that point knowing if she didn't, I would have never asked for one anyway. I had a lot of regrets about everything. In those couple of weeks after having her, your hormones are very up and down anyway. One moment, I would be fine. One moment, I would be really, really upset crying about it. I wanted to redo her birth so badly that it almost made me want another baby. “If we just have another kid, we can try again,” even though I had this 3-week-old next to me. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: I was not thinking very clearly. Meagan: You were craving a different experience. That's just part of your processing. Jessica: Yes. And looking back, I wonder if I was struggling with some PTSD because I would lie there at night not being able to sleep, and I would suddenly smell when they were cauterizing the wound. I would suddenly smell that again and think I was back in the OR. It wasn't very fun. Meagan: Yeah. It's weird how sometimes the experience can hit you in all different stages and in different ways, but right after, you're like, “No. No, no, no. I need something different. Let's have another baby right now. Let's do this.” So once you did become ready to have another baby, what did that look like? What did that prep look like? Did you switch doctors? You liked your whole practice. How did that look for you?Jessica: Well, we moved. I knew I had to find another doctor. I would have anyway in Madison. I would have gone with a group of midwives that somebody I knew had a good experience with, and after listening to the podcast, I wanted a midwife. But unfortunately, where we moved, we live in Green Bay now. I was so limited on which provider I could go with. In one hospital, one group, that was all I could do locally. I couldn't go with the hospital that everybody was recommending or the midwives that everybody was recommending for a VBAC. Meagan: Why couldn't you go there?Jessica: My insurance was very limited. It still is. We can only go to this one hospital and one facility for doctors. Meagan: Okay, so it was insurance restrictions. Yeah, not necessarily a lack of support in your area. It just was insurance which is another conversation for a later date. Stop restricting everybody. Jessica: I was very surprised because when we were in Madison, I could go wherever I wanted and see whoever I wanted. I ended up just choosing somebody. I liked her. She was initially very supportive of having a VBAC. I had mentioned it in my very first appointment that this was what I want. She said, “Oh, I'm so excited for you. This is going to be great.” I even mentioned that I was still breastfeeding my daughter when I was pregnant. They just seemed very supportive of all things natural and all things birth. Meagan: Everything. Jessica: Yeah. There were no issues whatsoever. I had already hired my doula when I was 6 weeks pregnant. I had already talked to them before I had even saw my doctor. I told them about how I was really limited and this was where I had to go, but I felt very supported knowing I had a doula and knowing I had somebody on my side It didn't really bother me at the time that I just had to pick whatever doctor I could. This was also a practice where the doctor I had wasn't going to be probably who I would give birth with. That also didn't bother me because I thought, “I have a doula. I have support. I know after listening to this podcast what I need to do to defend myself if that time were to come.” Meagan: Advocate for yourself, yeah. You felt more armed. Jessica: I did. I really did. I ended up seeing a chiropractor as well which was very helpful throughout my pregnancy. I loved going to the chiropractor. Not only did it help get her in a good position, but I also just didn't really feel body aches as much as I did, so there were a couple of benefits to going there. I definitely recommend a chiropractor. Meagan: I agree. I didn't go until my VBAC baby. I started going at 18 weeks, and I'm like, “Why didn't I do this with the other babies?” It was just amazing. Jessica: Yeah. It really is. But my doctor's appointments this time were very different. They were very rushed. They felt robotic. “How are you feeling? Great. Let's get the heartbeat. Any questions? No.” I really kept my questions for my doulas anyway because I really trusted them. I don't know. I didn't feel like I had many questions anyway because I knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted to show up to the hospital basically ready to push. One of the red flags, I will say, that looking back now with this provider that I had initially is that she never asked for any type of birth plan. She knew I wanted a VBAC, and I thought it was a good thing that she wasn't really asking details. I felt like, “Oh, she's letting me do my thing.” But looking back, I think it was just because she knew that's not what was going to happen. She knew. Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We've had providers who have told people here in Utah. The client will say, “Hey, I really want to talk about my birth preferences.” The provider will say, “You're really early. We don't need to talk about that right now. We could talk about that later.” Or, “Hey, I was thinking I want to talk about this. Can we talk about that?” “No, not today. It's fine. Whatever you want.” Then it comes, and we'll hear more about your experience. I'm sure it will relate to a lot of people's bait-and-switch stories. Jessica: Yeah. They sound so supportive in the moment, and then it's not looking back. It continued on through my whole pregnancy. Even when I was 35 weeks, she suggested a cervical dilation check. I denied it at that point. I thought it was too early. 35 weeks is very early. Meagan: 35 weeks? Yeah. Jessica: I'm really glad that I stood up for myself and said no, because I was having one of those moments of, do I just do it anyway? I said no, and she was very fine with it. She said, “That's fine. You don't have to if you don't want to. We don't have to.” I also thought that was a good sign. Meagan: You're like, “Yes. If we don't have to, why are we suggesting it in the first place?” But I can also see where you're like, “Well, sweet. She's respecting my wishes. I didn't want to. She's saying, ‘Okay'.” Jessica: Exactly. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it at my next appointment because my curiosity got the best of me. I knew that it wasn't important for me to be dilated, but I was trying to compare it to my last pregnancy. At 37 weeks, I was 3 centimeters with my first. I wonder if I'm going to have a different experience this time. Let's see where we're at. I was at 0. I just thought, “That's totally normal. I have a lot of time left.” Her demeanor changed very much. It was like at my appointments before, she was a different person now. Meagan: Oh. Jessica: She said, “Well, if we're not showing any signs of labor by 40 weeks, we need to schedule your C-section.” Meagan: Oh no. Jessica: She must have noticed I was surprised. I said, “But I don't want a C-section. Did you not remember that I'm going to have a VBAC?” She said, “Well, you don't want to risk your baby's life.” Meagan: Bleh. Barf. No. Jessica: Yes. Yes. I knew that was just a scare tactic. I luckily was not phased by it. I was educated. I mentioned something along the lines of, “Well, wouldn't we try to induce me before we jump ahead to the C-section? There's no medical need.” My pregnancies were so boring. There was nothing that would indicate anything, not even an induction, but I thought, “Why not even just mention that before a C-section?” She said something like, “There are too many risks involved.” That was the end of the conversation on her end. She pretty much wrapped it up and said, “It's pretty slippery out there. Be careful,” and walked out. Yeah. The conversation was over. In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her. I went back to the parking lot. I was crying. I texted my doulas right away what happened. I said, “I need to figure something out very quickly. I'm 37 weeks. I know I can't go back to her. Can you please help me figure something out?” They were so, so extremely helpful with helping me figure out my options. I thought that at this point– in the beginning of my pregnancy, I knew, “I'll just stand up for myself. I know what I want,” but when you are very big and pregnant, and you are very vulnerable, you don't want to do all of that arguing. You just want somebody who is going to support you. I just knew I couldn't go back to her. I didn't have the energy to try to defend myself or advocate for myself. I just needed somebody who was already going to support my decisions. They encouraged me to look a little bit further out of Green Bay which I didn't initially want to do. I wanted the hospital to be close. I had a 2-year-old. I didn't want to be far away from her. But knowing I had limited options, I looked a little bit farther out. I texted them, “Hey, there is this doctor who I can go to in Neenah. It's pretty far. I said her name. I don't know if I'm supposed to say doctors' names. Meagan: You can. Yeah. You can. People will actually love it so they can go find support themselves. Jessica: Yeah. I said, “There is this doctor, Dr. Swift, who is down in Neenah. That's the only one who is really popping up on my insurance who I can go to.” They immediately texted back, “You need to go see her. She's amazing.” My doula had actually had her VBAC with Dr. Swift. They were like, “You need to go see her. This your other option.” Meagan: Oh, Sara Swift is on our list of providers. Jessica: She is. She's amazing. Meagan: She is. Okay, so you're like, “I've got this doctor's name.” Jessica: I called them to make myself an appointment, and I wasn't able to get in until the following Friday. It would have been after I was 38 weeks. I told doula– Meagan: That's when you had your last baby, right?Jessica: No, actually my last baby was at 39 weeks, but I didn't know what was going to happen. I told them, and my doula was actually personal friends with her. She said, “No, that's not going to work. I'm going to text her, and I'm going to get you in sooner.” I think it was a Wednesday at that time. I was able to go see her Friday. Yeah. Meagan: A week earlier than you would have been able to. Jessica: Yeah. I helped me to feel more relieved knowing that if I had gone into labor before that next appointment, I would have known where to go. I would have had a doctor established. I was very, very relieved to see her. It was such a different experience than my other doctors. I had to bring my two-year-old with me, and at that point, she was getting antsy, so Dr. Swift actually sat on the ground with my daughter and was coloring with her while we were talking to keep her busy. I just remember thinking, “There's no other doctor out there who would do this for a very pregnant patient.” It felt very much like a conversation between friends. It didn't feel like a robotic type of conversation I had with my previous doctor. She very much upfront said to me, “Our hospital has VBAC policies. Here they are. You can deny anything you want. They're not going to allow you to eat food, but if you say you want to eat food, you can eat. They're going to want continuous fetal monitoring, but if that's not what you want, tell them what you want.” It felt like she just was supportive of what I wanted to do. She said something along the lines of, “I'm going to trust you and your body to make the decisions that you need to, but also know that if I need to step in, trust that I'm going to do what I need to.” It felt so mutual there. I was so excited to go back and see her every week. I'm actually kind of mad that I waited that long to see her. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm. I'm sure you felt like you were breathing in a whole different way. Jessica: I was. I felt very excited. The drive was longer, but it didn't even matter at that point. I went from a 15-minute drive to 45 and it didn't feel like there was any difference. It was all worth it. Meagan: I agree. It's sometimes daunting with that drive or the time, but you guys, it's so worth it. If you can make it work, make it work. I'm so glad. Okay, yeah. So you found this provider. Everything was feeling good. Jessica: It was feeling great. I actually ended up going past my due date. Meagan: Okay. Jessica: I was feeling a little bit– not defeated– I wanted to make it to my due date because I wanted to make it there with my first. I was excited when I got to my due date, and then I thought, “Okay, when is this actually going to happen? I've got a two-year-old.” My in-laws were coming up to watch her when we were going to the hospital. They live 2.5 hours away. I was starting to worry about, how is this all going to work out? But it really did. I felt my very first contraction two days after my due date. It was a Friday night at 6:30. We were getting my daughter ready for bed, and I felt that first contraction. I knew it was different than Braxton Hicks. I just knew, but I don't even know to say if that's when my labor started because that continued all throughout the weekend every 15 minutes. It was not a fun weekend. I kept thinking things were going to pick up, and then they would die down. Meagan: Prodromal labor maybe. Jessica: Yeah, I think so. At one point, I had my doula come over in the middle of the night. I didn't know when to go to the hospital. I didn't know if it was time or whatever. She came to my house in the middle of the night just to help me with the Miles Circuit and just the different position changes I could do. I believe that was on that Friday night that I started labor. I was also able to get into the chiropractor that weekend. They were closed, but again, my doula was very close friends with the chiropractor and texted, “Hey, Jessica could really use an adjustment. She's not in labor, but it's not progressing. Can you help her?” I went to go see them on Saturday and on Sunday just to get things moving. She was in a really great position. Everybody could feel that she was just in the perfect position. It was just that these contractions could not get closer together no matter what I tried. Something told me, “Hey, you need your water broken for this to progress,” because I couldn't do it anymore mentally or physically. I was exhausted. I didn't want to initially because I knew that's what prevented me from having the birth that I wanted in the first place with my first experience, but something also told me, “Hey, you need to go do this.” My intuition was super strong in those moments where I knew. My intuition was strong enough to switch doctors that late in my pregnancy. There wasn't another option. This time also, my intuition told me, “You have to go in, and they have to break your water.” I knew Dr. Swift would be supportive of that because she was supporting any type of birth plan I really wanted. She told me at any point, I could be induced, but that she wouldn't bring it up again. It was my decision. On Sunday night after we got my daughter to bed, we drove to the hospital. We let them know we were coming. Our doula met us there, and we just told them our plans. Dr. Swift, I remember, said, “Well, if I break your water now, you're so exhausted from the whole weekend. Do you want to try sleeping for a little bit and we will do it in the morning?” I said, “I can't sleep. I'm having these contractions every 15 minutes.” It was really funny. She said, “Well if you want to sleep, I'll give you something to help you sleep.” If anybody has ever met her or knows her, she's got a great personality. It was just funny in that moment. It's what I needed in that moment to have a good laugh. I was like, “Yes. Give me anything I need right now to rest just a little bit before the morning.” In the morning, she came back in around 8:00 or 8:30. I don't remember what time it was. She said, “Yep. Let's do this.” They double-checked me again to make sure she was in a great position. At that point, I was actually 4 centimeters. I forgot to bring that up. Meagan: Yay, okay. Great. Jessica: Yes, so those contractions I was experiencing over the weekend were productive. I felt better about that. I didn't want to break my water with being one of two centimeters. I felt good. Again, my intuition was telling me, “You need to do this.” Yeah. They did, and once again, it immediately put me into active labor. My doula was helping me with counterpressure, then they ended up running a bath for me which was very helpful. I was skeptical. I did not think that was going to work. When they were filling it, I remember thinking, “This is a waste of my time. This is not going to work,” but it was very helpful. At one point in the bath, I just remember feeling, “Okay, now I have to get out and I have to start moving around.” As soon as I got up, I just remember feeling things intensify. I got that feeling in my head like, “I can't do this anymore.” I knew that at that point, it was getting close because of that feeling of, “I can't do this anymore.” Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. Jessica: I had just a moment of weakness and I said, “I want an epidural right now.” Even though I knew in my mind that it was too late, I couldn't help but ask them for that epidural. Thankfully, my doula knew that's not what I wanted, so she helped prolong that process. She said, “Well, why don't we start with a bag of fluids and we'll see how it goes from there? We can ask them, but they might be busy.” That's exactly what I needed. I knew that's not what I wanted. Meagan: She knew that, and she knew how to advocate for you, and she knew you well enough what you needed to prolong it. Jessica: Yes. I'm very thankful for that because she could have said, “All right, let's get it right now.” But she knew and I had made it very clear that was not what I wanted to do. We started with a bag of fluids, and at that point, I could feel my body start to push itself. This was about 3 hours after my water was broken. It was a very quick process from then until that moment. While I was pushing, the anesthesiologist did come in the room. I remember the anesthesiologist did come in the room, and I remember he said something like, “Who's ready for the epidural?” My doctor said, “No, we're having a baby. Get out.” He came in in the middle of me pushing, and I feel like I scared every other mom there with how loud I was, but I couldn't help it. Meagan: Sometimes you just have to roar your baby out. Listen, it's okay.Jessica: I really did. I really did roar her out in 20 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Jessica: After that, I don't remember feeling any other pain. The pressure was gone, and I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh. I did it. She's here, and I get my skin-to-skin with her which I didn't get the first time. I get to have this experience. I can't believe I actually did it. Meagan: And you did. Jessica: I did. Meagan: You did it. Jessica: There is so much more than you just having that VBAC. Throughout the journey, you grew. You grew as an individual. You grew as a mom listening to your intuition. You really, really grew, and then to have that baby again placed on your chest, oh, how amazing and how redemptive. Meagan: It was so redemptive and healing. In that moment, I didn't feel any type of way about my C-section anymore. I wasn't upset about it. I really had a feeling that it happened for a reason because if it didn't, I don't think I would have tried to educate myself about birth. I would have probably done it a second time, an induction, if it went well the first time. I also don't think I would have fought so hard the first time to breastfeed because I felt like I had to make it work. I didn't get the birth I wanted, so I had to make this work at least. I personally think that my C-section happened for a reason the first time. In that moment, I remember feeling a wave of, “I'm not upset anymore. I got this experience.”Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I kind of had that same view to a point. I do feel a little grumpy with how my births went because knowing what I know now, I am realizing that they didn't need to happen that way. I likely never needed a Cesarean ever. I just probably didn't. But, it's the same thing like you. I wouldn't have focused so hard on this. I wouldn't have done this. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be the birth doula that I am today. I would not be the podcaster today. I don't think I would have ever started a podcast on any other topic because I'm so deeply passionate about this topic and birth and helping have better experiences, so I really hold onto those experiences and cherish them. It sounds weird because it wasn't the birth we wanted, but it's what brought us here today. Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I also wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't have my C-section. I don't think I would have been interested in birth. I love it now. I think in the future, I would love to be a doula. I just recently took an exam to become a certified lactation consultant. I haven't gotten my results back yet, but I don't think I would have gone down that path yet either if I wouldn't have had my C-section and fought so hard for breastfeeding to work. I felt like I found my passion within that circumstance that was very unfortunate, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Meagan: But it did, and you've grown from it. We want to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. If this podcast is for VBAC moms, it's just as much for first-time moms in my opinion because we obviously have an issue with the Cesarean rate. We do. It's a serious issue. Jessica: Yeah, it is. Meagan: But with that said, I encourage you if you are listening, and maybe you haven't been able to process your past experience yet, or you are fresh out of it, and it's very thick, and it's very heavy and dark because we know that can sometimes be that way, I hope and I encourage you to keep listening, to keep learning, and to keep growing, because that darkness will become light again. Those feelings– I don't know about go away, but they will lift. I don't know how to explain it. Jessica: You might feel different about it. You might feel different about it than you did originally. Meagan: Your perspective will change. It's going to take time. It's going to take processing. It's going to take healing. It's going to be finding the education, finding the right team, finding the right support system, but it is possible. It is really, really, really possible, and take Jessica and my word right now, because we really have been there. We really understand so many of the feelings. I know that we all process feelings differently, and we're all in different places, especially depending on the types of births that we had. I know that there are way more traumatic experiences that happen out there, but this community is here for you.We love you. We are here to support you. Keep listening to the stories. Find the groups. Find the healing, and know that it is possible to step out of this space and to grow. It's weird to think, but one day, you're going to look back and say, “I might be grateful. I might be grateful that happened.” Yeah. Like I said, I'm not happy. I'm not happy it happened, but I'm going to cherish that. I'm going to try and flip it. I've made it a positive experience that it's brought me to where I am today. It's brought me to be in a place where I can share my story just like Jessica and all of the other Women of Strength before her to help women feel inspired and to avoid those future devastations and unfortunate situations. Jessica: Yeah. Don't let anybody try to tell you not to feel a certain way about it because I've had plenty of people tell me, “But you're healthy. But you have a healthy baby, you can try again next time.” I just said, “You don't understand. You're not in my position. I know there are people who do understand me.” Most of you who are listening will understand that yes, you have a healthy baby and you're fine, but it was still not what you wanted. That experience is so personal. You want what you want. Meagan: You want what you want, and you're not selfish for wanting it. You're really not. I think that's really important because sometimes I think we are made to feel that we are selfish for wanting a different experience especially out there in the world, a lot of people say, “Why would you want that? Why would you risk that? You are selfish. Just be grateful for what you have. Just be grateful that you do have your baby and that you and your baby are okay.” No. No. The answer is no. Last but not least, I really wanted to share a little bit more about the bait and switch and how to recognize that because you guys, it can be hard to recognize. I don't ever believe that these providers are sneakily trying to fool us, but maybe they are. I don't know. I'll tell you, they do. They do fool us. I don't know if that's because our judgment is clouded or what, but I think it's important to feel that inside. What does your heart do when your provider walks in? What do your hands do? Do they clam up? Do they clench? Do they freeze? What does your body do? Are your shoulders rising up? Are they relaxed? Does your face have a smile on it? Really tune into who your provider is making you be. Are they making you a tense ball, or are they making you relaxed and excited?I mean, really Jessica, the way you are talking about Dr. Swift, it sounds like she is amazing. She's like, “Here. Here are the policies. I want you to know these. These are things that you are going to be up against. You might have to fight for intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You might have to fight for this and this, but hey. I'm here. I'm on your side. We have these policies, but I'm here. Use your voice.” That was just so amazing. Jessica: It was amazing. I'm sad that I'm not going to have another child because I don't get to go see her for appointments then. I really wish I would have met her sooner. That's the type of doctor your need is when you actually want to go see them. That's a big difference. You're not thinking ahead of your appointment, “Well, I wonder if there is anybody else.” Meagan: Okay, I love that you said that. Check in with yourself and see if you are excited to see your provider. That's how I was. I would look forward. I would look at the calendar and be like, “Oh my gosh. I get to see my midwife this week. This is so exciting,” because I would remember the way that she made me feel when I would get there. She would embrace me with a hug. “How are you doing, genuinely? How are you doing? How are you feeling?” We would chat, and it was a conversation like you said, like two friends. It really should be that connection. I know sometimes, providers don't have the actual time, but tune into how you are feeling about seeing your provider. Are you dreading it? Are you worried about what you're going to say? Are you worried that you're going to have to be educated and come at them and say, “Well, I don't want this, and I don't want that”? What are they making you feel? If they are making you feel those genuine warm fuzzies, lean into that. Jessica: You have a good doctor then. Meagan: If you are feeling tense and anxious, I don't know. It's never too late to switch. You were switching later on. You had a further drive. There were obstacles that you had to hurdle through, but it is worth it. It is so worth it. We have a provider list, everybody. If you are looking for a provider, go to our Instagram. Look at our bio. Click on it. The very first block is supportive providers. If you have a supportive provider that you want to share, I was literally going to put Dr. Swift on this because of your testimonial of her, but she's already on it. Jessica: She was already on it too when I checked. Meagan: Yeah. If you have a supportive provider and you checked this list and they are not on it, guess what? We have made it so you can add it. Definitely add your provider because Women of Strength all over the world, literally all over the world, are looking for this type of support. Jessica: Absolutely. In case you're wondering if my other doctor ever reached out to me, I never heard a single word from her ever again. I canceled all my remaining appointments. Nobody reached out to say, “Hey, we noticed that you're not coming back. What's going on?” Anything could have been wrong when you're that pregnant and you just disappear. It was upsetting that nobody said, “What's going on, Jessica?” I was ready to let them have it because I was wanting them to reach out to say, “Why are you not coming back?” But they never called ever. Meagan: A lot of us stay because we are so worried about how our provider will feel or we have been with our provider this long. They deserve for me to stay. No. Do what's best for you. I love that you pointed that out so much. I just want to thank you again so much for sharing your journey with us and all of these amazing nuggets. I know that they are going to be loved.Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This just feels amazing to be able to share my story when I've heard so many on here before that were so helpful.Meagan: Yeah, and here you are. I love how full circle this always is, so thank you, again. Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Alma's first birth was an emergency Cesarean after an induction at 40 weeks due to gestational diabetes. Due to COVID-19 policies, Alma's husband was not allowed into the OR. She did not expect the induction process to end the way that it did, and felt robbed of the positive birth experience she hoped to have. Alma made sure to educate herself on all of her options for her second birth. She was very proactive about her health and did not have gestational diabetes the second time. She went into labor earlier than she expected at 38 weeks. She woke up in the middle of the night to her water breaking, and intense contractions began. Within minutes, Alma knew she had to go to the hospital immediately. Alma felt pushy as they made the 45-minute drive. She was admitted to a room, and her beautiful baby was born just two pushes later!Evidence Based BirthⓇ: Induction for Gestational DiabetesThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC with Gestational DiabetesBirth Ball Amazon LinkNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello. It is almost the end of November. It is crazy to think that the year is coming to an end. But guess what, you guys? We still have so many amazing stories coming your way. Today's story is from our friend, Alma. I'm already messing it up. It looks like Alma, but you say it. Tell me how to say it correctly.Alma: Alma, but any way you say it is fine. Meagan: Perfect. I want to say it correctly though. She is sharing her stories today. Now, you are in New Jersey now, but you weren't in New Jersey when you had your VBAC. Is that correct? Alma: When I had the C-section, I was in New Jersey, so we just zigzagged a little bit. Meagan: So she's in New Jersey, but the VBAC wasn't in New Jersey. I know a lot of people when they are listening are like, “Where was this VBAC?” We will talk a little bit more about that when we get into the story, but let's give them a little teaser of what your episode is going to be. Your first C-section, I feel like was the steps. It was the steps or the cascade, and then a little bit of what you went through. Tell us a little bit of a teaser before we get into the episode. Alma: I had a lot of interventions in my first pregnancy and did end in an emergency C-section, then for my son, my second pregnancy, it was exactly the opposite. There wasn't time for any intervention. He just flew out. My whole labor was 2 hours from the first contraction to when he was born. I almost delivered in the car. He was too fast, but it was exactly the experience that I wanted to have. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh, so a precipitous labor after a lot of interventions, an induction, and all of these things. I'm so excited to get to this episode today, but we do have a Review of the Week. As usual, if you haven't done so yet, please leave us a review. We absolutely love them. Okay, this episode reviewer is Desiree Jacobsen. She actually just left this review this year in August of 2024. It says, “Thank you”. It says, “This podcast and parent's course is amazing. I'm not a VBAC mom, but I have been listening since 2020. I binge-listen toward the end of pregnancy to remember everything I need to remember in the birth process through my previous births. This time around, I felt more prepared than ever before having plans in place just in case. We were able to have a quick birth for my fifth baby. I love the education, passion, love, and support this podcast gives. I recommend it to everyone I know, and I have learned so much from it. I am so grateful for this podcast. Thank you”. Oh, I love that. I love that, love that, love that. That was actually sent to us via email. If you didn't know, you can email your reviews at info@thevbaclink.com. Your reviews on the podcast and on Google are what truly help other Women of Strength find this platform and find the courage and the information that they need to choose the birth that they desire. Okay, girl. Let's get into this story. So first birth, lots of interventions. Let's talk about it. One, what types of interventions, and two, why? What led up to needing those interventions or I don't know if it's “needing” or really medically needed? Tell us more. Alma: Well, my first pregnancy was very normal and healthy up until I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. That's where things started to change a little bit. I just failed the test by just a point, so my blood sugar was elevated, but it wasn't as bad as it could be. I wasn't even on insulin. I was just on diet control. Everything was going fine so I thought, but I would say a week before my due date, I was told that I needed to be induced because of the gestational diabetes. That was the first red flag of things going out of my control because I didn't expect to be induced. Although I had gestational diabetes for a while already, I wasn't told that this would probably be the case that I would be induced. I agreed to the induction of course. I understand why it's done, so I went along with it. I think my daughter just did not want to be born. On that day at least, we went in on my 40th week, and I was on Pitocin for hours, and it did nothing. I tried some exercises. I tried a bunch of things. Nothing worked.Eventually, the doctor suggested to manually break my water. That's where I wish I had asked to do other things first. I wish I had rejected that choice, but I went along with it. From that point, the labor went from 0 to 1000. I was in so much pain in a matter of minutes. Everything happened so fast, and I wasn't ready for that. I asked for an epidural really fast. I got the epidural, and that's also when things got worse because my blood pressure started to decrease. I didn't know that could happen actually. Later on, I scoured through every detail of what happened, and I tried to figure out exactly what went wrong. I realized that could happen with an epidural. When your blood pressure is affected, of course, the baby's blood pressure is affected so my daughter started to have some fetal decelerations. It was very concerning. They put me on my back to deliver to push her out. I wasn't even 10 centimeters yet. They were going to stretch me, but her blood pressure just declined in a way that was really concerning. I was rushed to the OR and the C-section was done. Everything happened so fast. I hesitate in using the word traumatic just because in the end, everybody was fine. I was fine. My daughter was fine. She was healthy, but it was very traumatic because nothing was in my control in that moment. I felt almost robbed of the experience that I expected to have. That was my first birth. Meagan: Well, and when things are rushed like that and you are left in a sense of– you said panic, but in a sense of urgent need to save something or save someone, it does. It sets all of your alarms off. Alma: That's exactly what happened. Meagan: Everyone has trauma differently. They view trauma differently. Someone may see one things as traumatic, and someone would be like, “How is that traumatic?” It's okay, I think, that you're using that word because that is how you are perceiving this. Your feelings and your alarms that were going off in your body as everything was being rushed and all of these things left that traumatic feeling. Alma: Yeah, definitely. In that moment, I felt like I couldn't breathe. At this time too, there were a lot of COVID restrictions, so my husband wasn't let into the OR. It was like, “What happpened to her?” He was more concerned than me probably. He thought both of us were going to die, my daughter and myself. It all just happened so quickly. Thankfully, we were okay in the end, but I had no idea I would be coming back with a C-section scar. That requires more recovery. As a new parent, we were already new to everything. It was a lot to deal with, I think. Meagan: Yeah, what you were saying, I'm sure your husband had a lot of trauma through that experience too. We know that COVID especially– I mean, birth in general comes with a lot of things especially the unexpected, but when you through COVID in with that, it's a lot of ick. It's a lot of icky feelings. It's a lot of ick. Alma: Yes. Meagan: So everything was good. Baby was good. You were good. Overall, it was a less-ideal situation, but where did that leave you after you had the baby and you were starting to recover? Where was your mind? Alma: I think I had to process a lot of what happened. I think I went into the first pregnancy very naive. It's important to be educated, and I really appreciate this podcast for that reason to encourage us to be educated. It's not that we are doctors. At least, many of us are not medical professionals, but we need to be aware of our bodies and just what the process looks like, and even some terminology. I was totally clueless on everything. I think that what I tried to do in between both pregnancies was just learn. What's going on in my body? What can I say no to in terms of interventions?You don't have to agree to everything. I never want to argue with a doctor of course, but if I really feel like that's not the best choice, I can always ask for another choice. I can consider other options. Meagan: Yes. Alma: I just didn't know I could do that the first time. I definitely tried to educate myself as much as possible, and I think that contributed a lot to how the second delivery went. Meagan: Yeah. I just wanted to thank you so much for pointing that out and seeing that because if I were to guess, we all didn't know that. We may have heard that you can always say no, but I don't if we realized how much we really could say no to or ask for another opinion. Maybe we knew it, but didn't really feel like we could. It can be hard. It can be hard to say no, but I love that you are like, “I want a different option. I'm going to say no to this right now. Give me another option.” It's always okay. Alma: Definitely, definitely. Wanting to wait if the time allows, “Can we try this later?” There's a conversation that needs to happen. It doesn't have to be one thing that is suggested. Meagan: This way or no. Alma: For sure. Meagan: Where did your education start stemming from? Where did you start when you were like, “Okay, I want to do something different next time”? Alma: The podcast. The VBAC Link. I listened to a bunch of podcasts. There is All Things Pregnancy with Dr. Nicole Renkins, and of course, The VBAC Link Podcast. Meagan: We've had her. We love her. Alma: That's just what I did all the time before I went to bed. I'd listen to an episode driving. I'd listen to an episode. It was very helpful. I felt like I could digest information better that way as opposed to reading, so that was a very helpful tool. I also tried to find professionals around me who could speak to my specific situations. I had a doula, and of course, I had my providers as well. They were all so helpful with helping me navigate some of the things that might have gone wrong the first time, and how I could prevent them going forward. Meagan: When they talked about some of the things that maybe went wrong the first time– I don't want to say wrong. They went south. Alma: Yes. Meagan: I don't know why people say that. I love south. I love the south. What were the kinds of things that stood out to them?Alma: Well, I think the first thing was the induction in the first place. I completely understand the risk with gestational diabetes, but I think there could have been more conversations with that in my specific case. Seeing as I did not have diabetes that was really out of control, it was very well controlled with my diet, and there could have been room to say, “Maybe we can go a couple days past my due date.” I wouldn't recommend that for everyone. I think it depends on your case, but I could have tried to have that dialogue, and maybe we didn't need to have an induction. I also could have considered different methods of induction, and I think that was the first thing because I felt like that was the first domino piece. If I didn't have the induction, it might not have led to a C-section in the first place. Another point was also the breaking of the water. Those things, I could have just said, “Let's wait.” I was already there for the induction, so I could have just asked for a little more time. But the big point for me too was the epidural. That was, I think, the immediate reason for the fetal distress. Meagan: The response. Alma: The response, yeah. Understanding how I could avoid that. I was told that now with the second epidural, I may not have the same reactions because I've had it before. Also, if you get flushed with some IV fluids– Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say if you hydrate and not even just intravenously, but literally drinking water before. If you know that you're going to want to get an epidural, or it's heading that direction, start hydrating. The more you can hydrate, the better. Alma: So I learned those things, then also, I tried to prepare myself for not even having an epidural, although that wasn't my goal, because I experienced the pains before. Even though I had the C-section, I went through some labor pains. I was accepting the fact that I might just need the epidural, but I considered that as well. How can I overcome this pain without any kind of medication? Those were things I was trying to consider about how we could do it differently so it doesn't result in the same thing. Meagan: Okay, I love those tips. So now, you're pregnant, and we have baby number two. Tell us this journey. Alma: Yes. I guess from the time of conception, it was about 18 months apart from the C-section. My pregnancy went perfectly fine. There were no issues. The difference being I had a toddler, so I was more active, of course. I was on my feet. I took at least 10,000 steps a day. I didn't sit much just because of my daughter. I think that definitely helped in preparing my body. I was really focused on how I can work on my pelvic floor and was just preparing for what it would take to push a baby out. I also did a lot of exercises that I found online. I never did a class or anything, but these were just Instagram videos where you could see the top three videos for strengthening your pelvic floor and things like that that were just free and available. I had an exercise ball that was a lifesaver. I highly recommend that exercise ball for anybody who is pregnant, especially in the third trimester. You can sit on it. You can lean on it. You can squeeze it between your knees. All of those things provide relief, but they also strengthen your muscles down there. I did the Miles Circuit. All of those things were super helpful, and I did it daily to prepare my body. I guess going into the actual labor, I'll start by saying that first of all, I didn't have very supportive providers. I learned from this podcast that that's very important. I do 100% agree that it's half the battle if you have someone who is on your side and wants to help you make intelligent decisions. I would say my providers were not completely unsupportive, but there were a lot of policies from the hospital side that I think restricted them from encouraging a VBAC. There were a lot of if's, and's, and but's. There were so many stipulations for when or if I could have a VBAC. Meagan: Can I ask which ones stood out where you were like, “These for sure are alarms”?Alma: The biggest one was that I would have to deliver before 40 weeks. I felt statistically that doesn't happen. People usually birth after their due dates, so I felt like I was already set up for, this is not going to happen probably. I felt really discouraged by that. Also, I guess the due date was a big thing, but also if I were to have gestational diabetes again, then the whole conversation on the doctor's side was just completely mute. I would just need to go for the induction if I had gestational diabetes. Statistically, you do have it with each subsequent pregnancy according to what I have known. I was also expecting, okay. I'm most likely going to have gestational diabetes. I'm most likely not going to give birth before 40 weeks. It seemed like I was most likely going to have to agree to a C-section. Those things were not encouraging, but I did feel like the doctors were trying to help me find some safe loopholes. One of them being that they had to– I don't know if this is law, but they had to schedule me for the C-section even though I didn't want one. But they explained to me that I could go in and say to them that I didn't want a C-section. I could ask for more time. I could ask to be induced, and hopefully, the induction wouldn't lead to a C-section although it could. I guess they were trying to explain to me that there are some routes you could take, but given the fact that you had a previous C-section, we do have to just assume that you're going to have another one. I felt really alone on that journey of trying to do something that I felt like I could do, especially given that the reason for the first C-section was an emergency. I was dilated. It wasn't a failure to progress. I felt like my body was perfectly primed to do it, but because of time, we had to go for the C-section. I also had to have some conversations with myself accepting that if I do need to have another C-section, it's not the end of the world. I guess what frustrated me about the first time was that I felt like I didn't need to have it. C-sections save lives. They're great tools when they're needed, but I felt like I didn't. Aside from the distress and all of that, I felt like I didn't need it, so I wanted to really try for this vaginal birth. I was just in between trying to accept what might happen, but still trying to hold on to what I believed I could do. So, I guess fast forward to my 37th week, I had an appointment and I had to sign off that I would come in for a C-section, but my plan was to go in that day. This was on the 39th week. I would have the C-section. I could go in and say that I didn't want to have it. On the night of my 38th week, my husband just finished putting together the crib, and it was midnight. He put together the crib. We went to sleep, and at around 2:45, I wake up because I thought I peed on myself. Now, I think I realize that it was my water leaking. I got up, and at that point, I had maybe cramping, but it wasn't really painful. To make a long story short, 10 minutes later, I was having full-on contractions. They were super painful. I got out my phone to time it, and within two taps, the app was telling me to go to the hospital now. It was two taps. Everything was happening so fast. Meagan: They were coming so close. Alma: Yes. They were so close. I don't remember how to count them. All I did was tap, and it was telling me to go. This was at 38 weeks, so I honestly didn't have anything ready. I didn't have my bags ready or nothing. Within a matter of minutes, I was just on the floor trying to remember the HypnoBirthing and everything, but it was all slipping because it happened so fast.We get in the car, and I'm still in a whole lot of pain. At a certain point though, I got a grip. I was doing this Christian HypnoBirthing which really helped me. I finally grasped myself and was able to calm down, but the pain accelerated very, very fast. At a certain point, though, I started to feel a lot of pressure. I was still driving, by the way. We had about a 45-minute journey to the hospital. I started to feel a pressure to push. I just couldn't resist it, so I pushed. I hammered down really hard. It sounded like a fire hydrant was cracked open. My water busted open in the car. I'm sitting behind the driver's seat on my knees, and my water just gushed open. At that point, I really felt like he was coming out. I couldn't hold back the desire to push because it also relieved the pain a little bit. It was more like a pressure as opposed to a pain. I just gave into that feeling, but I did feel like he was between my knees and was about to come out. My husband made a few wrong turns, but eventually, we got to the hospital. I couldn't even sit, actually. They put me in a wheelchair to go to the place where you would give birth. I couldn't sit down. He was just about to come out, and when I got there, I was already beyond 10 centimeters at that point. Later, the doctor told me when she came down to see me that she could already see the hair of my son's head. He was already so close. Remember, the talk about the epidural? I wanted the epidural. I was asking the security guard, the person at the front desk– everybody I saw, I was asking for the epidural. I noticed that they didn't respond to me on that. I overheard them telling my husband that it was way too late for the epidural. My son was already halfway out, and they couldn't give me the epidural. Once the doctor came, she told me to give a good push. I pushed one time. His head came out. The second time I pushed, he flew out. I had five nurses dive in to grab him. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Alma: He was born, and that was the whole thing. It was super duper fast, unmedicated, and yeah. The most touching part to me was that he came out, and they put him on my chest. That was all I wanted. When my daughter was born in the C-section, I had to beg them to let me see her. I didn't see her until minutes later. I didn't hold her until the next day, but this time, they put her right on my chest, and it was just so redemptive. It was everything that I really wanted to experience. Meagan: Absolutely. It was probably a lot all at the same time, very shocking, but then to have that baby be placed on your chest, oh, what an amazing moment for you. Alma: Yes, yes. It was. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Super fast. I was just going to say that was super fast. Alma: It was. It was so fast. I think this is a thing with my kids. For my daughter, too, when they broke my water, everything went very fast. I don't know. They are just really urgent, but my son was definitely in a rush. He came very, very fast. Meagan: Did your doula even make it?Alma: No, she didn't. She did not. She couldn't. It just happened too fast. She didn't make it on time, but she was happy to hear everything went fine. Meagan: Yes, of course. Of course. Oh my goodness. So after you had the baby, and you had him on your chest and everything, did all of the rest of everything go okay and smoothly?Alma: Yeah. I was bleeding a lot, and that was a concern, but I thankfully recovered fine from that. I had a second-degree tear which I hear is not terrible for the first time doing that. So yeah. I recovered pretty quickly afterward. In my experience, it really didn't compare at all to the C-section recovery. I was in a lot of pain after my C-section, but this time, it was just maybe a week or two of taking some pain medication for the stitches and stuff, but overall, I was fine. Yeah. I was able to go home the next day actually, so that was also very good. Meagan: The next day? That is awesome. Alma: Yeah. Meagan: How did your medical team feel about it? Did they say anything? Did they have any worries?Alma: Everyone was just so shocked at how quickly everything took place. I think that was the main theme was just the speed, and also how determined my son was. With just two pushes, he just came out really fast. The concern of obviously dropping him because they all dove in to get him. I think that was the talk. This happened in the morning, so the whole rest of the day, they were just chatting about how quickly everything happened. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I bet. I think sometimes those births are kind of a lot for medical staff where you come in and your baby is crowning, but I feel like those births are the type that they really do talk about for a really long time, and they were like, “Look at this.” A lot of the times, here in Utah, anyway, they call them stop and drops where you show up at 10 centimeters. You just stopped in and dropped your baby. I feel like in a lot of ways, it shows people that labor can happen at home, and then you come and it can so beautifully happen without getting an IV, getting a heart trace, setting up fluids, doing this, having a cervical exam. There is just so much that doesn't need to happen, and I love when medical staff can see that birth can just happen like that. It really, really can if we just leave it be. Alma: Yeah. That's exactly another point of how I felt before because I had gestational diabetes, and because I had a previous C-section, they did make it sound like I needed to be hooked up to every machine, and I could never give birth at home. I just felt almost like a robot connected to everything. That's how it had to be, but yeah. This time, I wasn't even in a hospital gown. It was just so organic how it happened. That was exactly what I wanted to experience, but I think it was a good experience for the nurses as well to see that it was okay. I was fine without the IV and the other stuff. Meagan: Yeah, I love that. You had listed some tips. One of them was doing pelvic floor exercises on the ball which we kind of talked about. I love the ball so much. If you guys are interested in a ball, I'm going to link a ball in the show notes because they are actually really inexpensive and can do a lot of really good things. What other tips do you have for someone preparing for a VBAC?Alma: The number one tip which I've heard constantly here is about being educated and understanding what your options are. Unfortunately, I think that most providers are not going to make it easy to have a VBAC just because of the risks that are associated with it. Of course, they may have your well-being in mind, but there are also a lot of hospital policies and protocols that they need to follow. They may not make it easy, but if you understand what your options are and what the research says, it opens the door for dialogue. When you open that conversation, I think you will find that doctors will probably give you more options than what they may have initially suggested. I always spent time talking with the doctors about, “So what if this happens? How about this? How about that?” I feel like that did wiggle in some room for me to not do things just following the protocol. Meagan: Yeah. Alma: That's really important. Meagan: It's so interesting how if you show up showing that you're educated, there's this different sense of– I don't want to say respect, but I do want to say respect because I feel like these providers are like, “Oh. They get it. They understand. I can't just say whatever. This needs to be an educated discussion.” It should always be like that, but I also think a lot of the times, providers don't have time to really sit down and talk about the evidence, or their evidence is flawed because of personal experience. When you come in and you're like, “Hey, what about this?” and they're like, “Oh, she knows stuff,” it just really gives you some wiggle room. It gives the providers respect just a little bit more because they realize how important this is that we are educating ourselves. We are learning. We know the options, and we're not just going to be like, “Okay, cool.” I love that tip. That, and finding the supportive provider. In the beginning, you had said that the hospital policies may have trumped these providers' stance. I think not only just finding your supportive provider, but really understanding the hospital policy. You can call, and you can talk to the head nurse. You can talk to the board and the directors of the hospital. You can say, “Hey, I need to know the hospital policies surrounding VBAC.” Alma: Yeah. You know, I believe it was on this podcast where someone mentioned that the best way to know how a provider feels about a VBAC is just to ask them very straight, “What do you think about VBACs?” Their expression will say it all. You don't have to have a preamble about it. Just ask directly, and I think that helps. I definitely did that. It wasn't favorable in my case, but I definitely think looking into the hospital C-section rates is really important too. How often do they have C-sections? How often do they have VBACs? If they have that information available, that's also really helpful. In my case, I found out too late that it wasn't the highest, but it was pretty high. Also, from this podcast, I learned that it's never too late to switch providers if you want to. I didn't take that route. I stuck with who I was with, but I guess I was just trying to be adamant with what I wanted to do as much as possible. Meagan: Absolutely. Do you have any tips on how to possibly find the hospital's Cesarean rate? It used to be out there on cesareanrates.org. It used to be out there, and you could look up your hospital. You could look up your state. You could look up your provider, even. That's gone down a little bit and changed a little bit, but do you have any advice if someone is wanting to know their hospital's Cesarean rate? Alma: In my case, I just searched the hospital name and the Cesarean rate. This was a pretty big hospital. This was in Florida. It was a hospital with a very big network, so that information was readily available on their website. You do need to dig around, but it was on their website. If you are dealing with a big hospital with many departments and so on, they may have that information on their website easily with a Google search. You could also talk to people who work at the hospital as well. If it's not online, I think that information is quantified normally. They might not quantify how many VBACs they have, but definitely the C-section rate is information that they are following and tracking. Meagan: Yeah. I feel like it's always fair to ask your provider, “What's your Cesarean rate?” A lot of the time, they will say, “I don't know.” They know. They know. That's something that they need to be able to give you. It's okay to ask that. “What percentage of your deliveries end in a Cesarean?” Alma: Yeah. Being direct is really the easiest way to know clearly where they stand. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to really quickly talk just slightly about gestational diabetes. There's a lot when it comes to gestational diabetes. We know, just like you had experienced, that most providers suggest an induction. They just do. According to the American Pregnancy Association, gestational diabetes occurs in 2-5% of pregnancies which is decent. For those who are at a higher risk in their pregnancy, it may be even higher up to 9%, but a lot of them are controlled like yours were through diet or even through insulin and things like exercise. A lot of people are controlling them. Evidence Based BirthⓇ, which I want to make sure that this is linked in our show notes and our blog so if you want to go read more about gestational diabetes or you had gestational diabetes with your last pregnancy and you may have it again, definitely go check it out. They talked about how there is actually very little data in how often people are actually induced because of the diagnosis of gestational diabetes. But in one of the retrospective studies, they found that out of 330,000 births from 2001-2007, they saw– okay, let's see. It says, “The people in the study came from six health insurance plans, many different hospitals and regions, and represented a large and diverse population. Health insurance plans datas were linked to birth certificate data in order to improve accuracy compared to using birth certificates alone.” Going down a little bit further, they said, “Overall, 30% of labors were induced. When they looked at the reasons for induction, 59% of labors were induced for an accepted medical reason and 41% were considered to be elective.” Those are pretty big numbers to me. Alma: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, those are big. Meagan: Yeah, those are really big numbers. It goes on. It talks about, does gestational diabetes always mean induction? What's the evidence for randomized controlled trials? They go way into it because Rebecca Dekker is amazing, and their team is incredible. We will also have our blog linked because I believe this is a really important topic to know more about especially if you've had it so you can make the right decision. And how you said, you were like, “I was in a controlled state. Everything was controlled through my diet, and I could have likely gone further,” but you didn't. You weren't really encouraged to go further. It was like, “Let's induce.” Alma: Yeah, it literally was just like that. There was no conversation about it. Meagan: Yeah. No conversation about it. I think that's where we're going wrong a lot in the medical system. A lot of the time, there is no conversation. Even though we have the power to start that conversation, sometimes it's really difficult when we're being told, “Your provider thinks this. Your baby is in danger. You're in danger if you don't do these things.” It's like, “Okay. Okay. I'll do those things,” but we need to have those conversations. I think that again, having the education and knowing the evidence behind it, and the risks and the benefits and all of those things, it will help you have that conversation if and when the time is needed. So, thank you so much for chatting with us today and sharing your stories and giving us advice, and leaning into more conversations for gestational diabetes. I think it's something that is happening. A lot of people are getting it. There are things we can do even before pregnancy like really increasing our protein and things. But sometimes, it just happens. It just happens. Alma: I will say just to be clear, the second pregnancy, I did not have gestational diabetes. Meagan: Okay. Alma: That was also something. That was my biggest concern. The two points I mentioned were that the conditions were that I couldn't have gestational diabetes, and I needed to deliver before 40 weeks. But this goes along with education. I did my best to improve my diet even pre-pregnancy to avoid that diagnosis. It was actually a miracle that my blood test came back really well. I almost thought this was the wrong test because it wasn't elevated at all. I was really, really thankful that through some dietary changes and lifestyle changes, I didn't have gestational diabetes at all. Then the second point about giving birth before 40 weeks, it was a spontaneous labor at 38 weeks which also was so supernatural. I really thank God. Everything happened really perfectly. Yeah. That was really a blessing.Meagan: Yes. Oh, thank you so much for everything. You are amazing.Alma: Oh, thank you. Meagan: We just love you.Alma: Thank you so much. I had a great time sharing the story, and I hope it encourages other women as well. Meagan: It will, for sure. Alma: Great. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Hospital Policy means the principles, rules, and guidelines adopted by the Hospital, which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.”Julie and Meagan break down hospital policies today, especially common ones you'll hear when it comes to VBAC. They chat all about VBAC agreement forms and policies surrounding continuous fetal monitoring, induction, and epidurals. Women of Strength, hospital policies are not law. They vary drastically from hospital to hospital. Some are evidence-based. Some are convenience-based. Do your research now to make sure you are not surprised by policies you are not comfortable with during labor!Defining Hospital PolicyBirth Rights ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, everybody. We are going to be talking about policies today. What do they mean? Why are they created? And when do we have the right to say no or do we have the right to say no?And I have Julie discussing this with me today. Hey. Julie: You know I'm a policy fighter. Meagan: Yes, we do. We do. The longer I have gone– in the beginning, I was not a policy fighter. I really wasn't. I was a go-with-the-flow, sure, okay, let's do it, you know best. That's really how I was. Julie: A lot of people are. Meagan: That's true. I think a lot of the time, it's because we don't know what our options are. We just don't know, so I'm really excited to get into this with you today. I always love it because we kind of get into this spicy mood sometimes when we have topics like this that we are very passionate about. We are going to be talking about policies today. I do have a Review of the Week, and this is actually a very recent review which is so fun. We just posted on our social media for Google reviews. We were specifically looking for Google reviews and podcast reviews. These are so, so important for us but also for other people to find this platform. We want people to hear these stories. We want people to feel inspired and get educated and know their rights. Your reviews truly do matter, so if you have not yet, please, please, please do so. You can leave a review on your podcast platform, or you can go over to Google and just type in “The VBAC Link”, and then you can type in a review there. This reviewer is by Savannah, and she says, “I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast around 16 weeks pregnant and continued throughout y pregnancy. It was so good and encouraging for me as a mama who was preparing for my VBAC. It helped me gain confidence, helped me know what to look for, and what to watch out for in my providers. Hearing others' stories was so encouraging and helped me gain so much knowledge. I had my hospital VBAC unmedicated with my 8-pound, 15-ounce baby.” You guys, 8-pound, 15-ounce baby is a perfect-sized baby let me just say. “And I know that the knowledge I gained from this podcast played a huge role in being able to advocate for myself to get my birth outcome.” Huge congrats, Savannah, on your beautiful VBAC for your perfect-sized baby. I say that because you guys, let's get rid of the “big baby” term. Let's just title these babies as perfect-sized because an 8-pound, 15-ounce baby for some providers may be categorized as larger or maybe even macrosomic. it's really important to know that your baby is the perfect size and your pelvis is amazing. You can do it just like our reviewer, Savannah. Julie: Your pelvis is amazing. Meagan: Seriously. All right, you cutie. Look at you. Did you just get a haircut, by the way?Julie: I did, yesterday. It's a little short. We did some color. It's a little smidgey shorter, but then I think I wanted it to still go in a low ponytail for births. That was my goal. Meagan: I'm totally digging it. Julie: Thank you.Meagan: I should be having fresh hair, but my cute hair lady bailed on me the morning of my hair appointment. Julie: Oh no! Meagan: Sometimes we have matching nails, but we would have had matching nails. We don't have them today. You guys, we just miss each other. I miss you. Julie: Yeah. We need to go to lunch again. Meagan: We do. Yes. We love shopping, you guys. Let's talk about hospital policies. Julie: Let's do it. Meagan: We know that so many people go into– not even just birth, but really a lot of things in the medical world. They just go to a doctor's office visit or go to a small procedure, or whatever it may be, and these places have policies. I want to talk about what it means. What does a hospital policy mean? What is the definition? The definition, according to lawinsider.com, says, “Hospital policy means the principals, rules, and guidelines adopted by a hospital which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.” Julie: Oh, I love that addition. Amended, changed, or superseded. Meagan: Yep. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. It can. Julie: And it does. Meagan: And it does. It does. Julie: It does. Meagan: You guys, let's just start off right now with the fact of a hospital policy– or a policy, okay? A policy in general is not law. It is not law. If you decide to decline a hospital policy– Julie: It is well within your rights. Meagan: Well within your rights. You could get some kickback. You could probably expect it. Julie: You probably will. Meagan: But, that's okay. That's okay. My biggest advice is if you are receiving or being told that this is a hospital policy, and you disagree with the policy, or maybe you agree with the policy for someone else, but for you, it's not working, and you say no, and they say, “Well, –”Julie: “It's hospital policy.” Meagan: “This policy is policy, and if you choose to break it, then you can sign an AMA.” Julie: You are so funny. “This policy is policy.” It's like that though. Meagan: That's literally what they say. Julie: They say, “It's hospital policy.” And you say, “Well, I don't agree with that policy.” “Well, it's hospital policy.”Meagan: “Well, it's policy.” Okay. Well, I'm telling you I don't like your stupid policy. Julie: I don't like your stupid policy. We are spicy, huh? Meagan: I mean it, though. I think I maybe shared this a little bit, but I had a client who had a home birth planned. She decided to go to the hospital because she had preeclampsia, and this nurse was not giving her her baby. She kept saying, “It's policy. It's policy. It's policy.” I was like, “This mom's word trumps your policy.” As a doula, I was getting into some rocky, choppy waters I was feeling. I could just feel the tension building. It did not feel comfortable at all. I looked at my client. Julie: You're just like, “Give her her doggone baby.” Meagan: They could kick me out. They could. I need you to know that they really could kick me out. She was like, “That's okay. I want my baby.” So I pushed. I pushed. I pushed and I pushed. We did get her her baby, but we had to fight. We really, really, really had to fight, and it sucks. It really, really sucks. So there is a website called pregnancyjusticeus.org. We're going to have this. I have not actually gone through all of it. It is– how many pages is this, Julie? It is a lot of pages. It is 65 pages, you guys. It's 65 pages of birthright information, going through a lot. Julie: It will be linked in the show notes. Meagan: Yes, it sure will. If you want to go through this, I highly encourage it. It is from Birth Rights and Birth Rights Bar Association, the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. Like I said, it's 65 pages, but what they said in here I just think is so powerful. It says, “There is no point in pregnancy in which people lose their civil and human rights, and yet all over the world, people often experience mistreatment and violations of their rights during pregnancy and birth and postpartum.” We see these things. Julie: You need to make that a social media post. People need to know this. Meagan: Yes. Down here even further, it says, “We also know that doulas and other people providing support to pregnant and birthing people often bear witness to rights violation of clients of loved ones. In a recent survey, 65% of doulas and nurses indicated that they had witnessed providers occasionally or “often” engage in procedures explicitly against their patients' wishes.” This is a serious issue. Julie: It is a serious issue. I feel like it's really frustrating, especially as a birth photographer where my lines as a doula are very separate, but I always doula a little bit at every birth I go to. It's not hands-on stuff always, but it's hard when you see people getting taken advantage of and they don't know they are being taken advantage of and they don't know that they have options or choices and they don't know that they can decline or request changes, and that's probably the hardest part is that people just don't know. I have a little tangent, but I'm in this Facebook support group for this medication that I'm on. It really amazes me continuously about how little people know about a medication that they are taking, a pretty serious medication that they are taking, and how little their doctors inform them of what the medication is and what some of the side effects and issues are, and what they can reasonably expect from it because some people have completely unreasonable expectations because they haven't dug into it at all. The other day, somebody said something like, “I've been really, really tired and fatigued since I started this medication, but I called my doctor and she said that fatigue is not a common side effect with this medication,” and I'm like, “What?” It's literally listed on the manufacturer's website that it's a side effect. It's listed on the insert for the medication. It's talked about all the time in this Facebook group, and it can be caused by a number of things that this medication affects. The fact that either her doctor didn't know or just told her– anyway, it leads me. I promise there's a point to this. It leads me to the fact that your doctor does not know everything about everything, especially a family doctor. This medication is prescribed by family doctors sometimes and endocrinologists. It is impossible for them to know everything about everything. Something like obstetrics and gynecology is more specialized so it is more focused. It is a more centralized area of study, but still, your doctor doesn't know everything about everything. It is not uncommon for them to not keep up in advancements in medications and technology and practices as they evolve. It's very, very common for the medical community to be 10-15 years behind the current research and evidence. It just is. Doctors and nurses and all of these things who have to have to have a certain number of contact numbers per year to keep up with training and education, but it is impossible for them to keep up with everything. It is okay for you to have different opinions than your provider. It's okay for you to want different things than is hospital policy, and it is perfectly reasonable for you to make those requests and for those requests to be honored. It is also okay for you to know more about a particular thing than your provider might. Meagan: Yep. Julie: Period, exclamation point, shazam. Meagan: Well, we've talked about this with other providers. We've heard other stories where people come in. They have stats that their providers haven't even seen. They just get stuck in their own way and their policies, and there are other things going on outside, so they just point-blank say, “No, this is how it is,” and you might have more information. That doesn't mean you are more educated or qualified or whatever to be a doctor. Julie: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: It doesn't mean, “Oh, I might as well be a doctor because I know this information and you don't,” but it means that you may have found information that your provider is not aware of. It is okay for you to bring that to their attention. In fact, do it. Congratulations for them to find out the information that they might not have known yet, so they can do better for the next patient. Julie: I want to say that there is an attitude with some medical care providers of, “Don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree.” Meagan: Yes. Julie: Come on. I really have a big problem when people get like that because first of all, and I've said this before, and I will continue to say it again, we have at our fingertips access to the largest amount of information ever available in humankind ever at our desktops. We can sit down, and you can go and find information and studies related to anything ever. Yes, don't go looking at Joe Blow down the street's opinion about childbirth or whatever. Yes, that might be a credible source. It might not be, but you can literally find these same studies, the same research, and the same information that these providers have access to in their path to their medical degree. Is it extensive? No. Are you going to have the hands-on experience that they have doing these procedures and C-sections and things like that? No, you're not, but you still have access to the same information that they have access to. I have a big problem when providers have this arrogant attitude that they know more. Yes, they do know more generally. They might not know more when it comes down to specific things that have been updated since they have gotten out of school. Meagan: Yeah. I feel like in a lot of ways, we hear these policies and these things come up, and you're like, “But where?” Then they can't show you the policy or stat. Julie: Yeah, then they'll be like, “You're 20x more likely to rupture.” You're like, “Can you send me the research?” They're like, “It's the way we've always done it.” Meagan: I did a one-on-one consult, and a provider told someone that they had this astronomical amount of percentage of rupturing, and I was like, “Wait, what?” Julie: Seriously. Meagan: I was like, “Please challenge your provider and ask them for that.” She did, and they were unable to give her that. We can just hear things, and if we just take them, it can be scary, and it can impact decisions when maybe that's not true. I also want to talk about policy for providers. Their policy should be that everyone should have informed consent. They have policies, too, that not only you have to follow or that they have to follow. It's a whole thing. There are many policies. Your provider really has to explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives for any medical procedure, intervention, or anything coming your way, but we see it not happening most of the time. We just see people doing stuff because it's within their normal routine but it's breaking policy which is so frustrating to me. So you can break policy? I want intermittent monitoring. I don't want consistent monitoring. I'm breaking a policy? Julie: So what?Meagan: So what? Julie: So what? Sorry. Meagan: Let's talk a little bit more about VBAC and policies surrounding VBAC. We know that policies are just there. They've been created. During COVID, holy Hannah. We saw these policies change weekly, you guys. Julie: Daily. Meagan: Yeah, seriously. They went in and they were like, “This is our new policy. This is our new policy. This is our new policy,” and I was like, “What?” Julie: It was freaking whiplash.Meagan: Yes, it was horrible. It was horrible. But they can change a policy just like that. You can say no to a policy just like that. So, okay. Sorry. I digress. Let's go back. Let's talk about what policies often surround VBAC. I know a lot of the time, in hospitals all over, it's a policy that midwives cannot treat VBAC. Or you can't be induced because it's a policy. You can't induce VBAC. We talked about this before we started recording, and I said it just now. It has to be consistent monitoring. Julie: Yeah. Well, can I just do a little bit of a timeout and a rewind for half a second? Hospitals are businesses, okay? I just want to explain this to everybody. Hospitals are businesses. I think we know that. You don't have to have that explained. Businesses, in order for them to run efficiently and smoothly, need to have policies, guidelines, best practices, standards of care, procedures, and things like that. It is a business. It is okay for them to set parameters for which they want their providers and nurses and everybody who is at the hospital to operate under, right? It's okay for them to have those things. It's okay for them to set those because if you didn't have those, the business would fall apart. Everybody would be doing whatever the heck they want. There would be a lot of disorder, right? Meagan: Yes. Julie: So policies and procedures and these best practices and things like that are created in order to keep things aligned and have a nice model of care so that they can be more cost-efficient so that the patients know what to expect so that the providers have a routine and things like that. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: There are reasons for these things. However, when we like to push back, when we are bothered, and the thing that really is frustrating about these policies is when they are put in place so rigidly that there's no flexibility and that it takes away a patient's autonomy, and that it removes individualized care from the birth experience. So this is why we want to talk about this. This is why we don't think all policies are dumb. No, we don't. We see the reason. We understand why they are in place. However, we want you to know that it is well within your rights as a human to decline and request changes for these policies, and to desire something different, and to have that desire respected. It's hard when some providers and nurses get so stuck in the fact that, “This is policy,” that they take away your autonomy and your right to choose. That's what we're pushing back against, and that's what we want you to know. These policies are not law. You have the right to want something different and to request something different, and to have that right respected. Okay.Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I do think it can be really hard because they have these things to keep order and to keep things tidy.Julie: And with the intention to keep you safe. Meagan: Yes.Julie: But sometimes intentions don't always translate well. But anyway. Meagan: Yeah. But really quickly before we get into what policies surrounding VBAC are, when we start questioning policy, there are things that can come into play where there are threats, there is coercion, there is gaslighting that starts happening because they are really panicked that you are questioning their policy. They feel very uncertain that you are questioning that. Julie: They may even feel unsafe, or they might never have had the policy challenged before so they don't know what to do about it. Right?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Just know that if people are coming at you with, “Well, if you don't do this, then this,” or whatever it may be, then it can get intense, but you can still say no. You can also ask for a copy of that policy. Again, even though that policy isn't law, you can still ask for it. Julie: Ideally, you can do this before labor begins because it's really hard to fight and bump up against these policies during labor. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: It's going to be a lot harder. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's go in. I talked a little bit about fetal monitoring. Julie: Induction. Meagan: Not being seen by certain people. No induction. Or the opposite. Julie: You have to be induced. Meagan: You have to be induced. Julie: By such and such a date. Meagan: Yes. It's just so funny because it varies all over. Julie: It does vary all over. Meagan: Let's talk about it. Okay, so fetal monitoring. Julie: Don't forget epidural placement too. Meagan: Yes. Epidurals. Julie: We can talk about that. That's my favorite one to argue against. Anyways. Okay.Meagan: There are so many. Okay, let's talk about fetal monitoring. What is the policy typically behind continuous fetal monitoring?Julie: Yeah, so most hospitals– in fact, I've never met a hospital where this hasn't been the hospital policy– is that continuous fetal monitoring is required for everybody, but especially for VBAC. They double down for VBAC because one of the first signs of uterine rupture, especially for someone who has an epidural, is irregular fetal heart tones. That can be one of the first signs of uterine rupture. Most hospitals are very, very adamant about having continuous fetal monitoring, especially for people who are undergoing a TOLAC which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. It's not a bad word. It's just how it's defined in the medical community before you have your VBAC.The reason they do that, like I just said— but honestly, if you don't have an epidural and if you aren't under any type of pain medication, the first sign of uterine rupture for you is going to be really intense pain. That's going to be your first sign. Especially if you are going unmedicated, I think it's perfectly reasonable to request intermittent monitoring. Do you want me to go into why they introduced fetal monitoring in the first place?Okay, in the early 1970s, we saw lots of rapid advancements in the medical field and technology related to the medical field. Things like continuous fetal monitoring got introduced. Antibiotics became more readily accessible. The procedures themselves, especially the C-section procedure, became perfected and easier to do with fewer complications and fever rates of infections. All sorts of things started happening at a really rapid pace in the early 1970s. One of the things that got introduced was continuous fetal monitoring. The intention behind the continuous fetal monitoring when it got introduced was to decrease the rates of cerebral palsy in infants. Cerebral palsy usually happens when during either pregnancy or labor, oxygen is deprived to the brain of the baby. It can cause a stroke and damage part of the white matter in the brain. The idea behind it was if you could catch the reduced flow of oxygen to the baby by monitoring its heart rate, you could intervene and do a C-section in time to get the baby out before cerebral palsy happens, essentially. The interesting thing about that is that after continuous fetal monitoring was introduced, there was no change in the rate of cerebral palsy. It stayed the same. It still is very similar. But what it did do is that it was one component that increased the rates of C-sections and other interventions. They are more likely to take a baby out due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones, and we've seen no improvement in maternal mortality and morbidity rates and infant mortality rates either with the introduction of all of these interventions. Meagan: Yeah. One of the reasons why they say that it's mandatory for VBACs specifically is because fetal heart tones decelerating is one of the signs, one of many, that a uterine rupture may be taking place. Julie: Right, right. I said that. Meagan: Oh, you did. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I was reading the link. I missed that. Julie: No, no. You're fine. Say it again. It's okay.Meagan: No, you're fine. Okay. So with uterine rupture, fetal heart decels are not always a symptom of uterine rupture. What do you feel like it means? I feel like so many people feel more comfortable having their baby on the monitor so they can hear them. Julie: Oh, they do. You know what? The staff is more likely to do that too. This is really sad, but we have a labor and delivery culture that is very, very comfortable sitting at a desk down a hall watching a monitor to see how a patient is doing rather than remaining in the room and watching them. They rely more on what is going on on the contraction monitor and the heart rate monitor than they do the visible signs of the patient. It's how they've been trained. It's how they monitor dozens of people at once in a labor and delivery unit, and I feel like continuous fetal monitoring and the contraction monitor are other ways that de-individualizes care. I don't know if that's a word. It takes out the individuality. It takes out the rights to the human and it takes out really watching the person, and relies too much on the data. Data is good. I love data. Don't get me wrong. I am a data junkie 110%, but data can only take you so far. I feel like that's why people freak out about the continuous fetal monitor thing. “How are we supposed to know if you're doing okay at the desk because we can't see the chart on the screen if we're not monitoring you continuously?” It puts more work on them, which is okay. I can't imagine being a labor and delivery nurse because sometimes you have more than one patient that you're monitoring and watching, and you've got lots of other things to do including charting and all of this stuff. Meagan: Yeah, this is one of those things that was created that even though the evidence didn't prove that the reason why it was created worked out, it stayed because it brought ease to monitoring labor, and monitoring it not in the same room, and being able to have five other patients while seeing a chart. Okay, so fetal monitoring is one. Let's talk about the induction or the non-induction that we've seen policies on both ways which also is so weird to me. I know it's hospital to hospital, but why aren't we going off of evidence?Julie: Dude, dude. Do you know what is so funny to me? I will also cry this out from the rooftops until I die, but if you really want to understand what maternal healthcare is like in the United States, you've got to talk to a doula or a birth photographer because we see not only hospital births and home births and birth center births, but we see all of the different hospitals and how they vary in hospital policy. It is so funny to me sometimes the conversations that I hear or have with labor and delivery nurses who insist one thing, then the next labor and delivery nurse in the next hospital insists on something completely different. “Oh, it's not safe to go past 20 for Pitocin on VBAC,” then the next hospital will be like, “Yeah, it's perfectly safe as long as you are monitored and the OB signs off on it.” It's so up, down, and sideways based on whatever this specific hospital policy is. It's not their fault which is why sometimes I like travel nurses in labor and delivery units because they go all around the country and have vastly different experiences with all the different hospitals. It's fun to see the culture shift that can come in when that happens. Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so in some hospitals, it is policy that you have to go into labor spontaneously. Julie: Yeah. They will not induce for VBAC. Oh, but if you haven't had your baby by 40 weeks, it's hospital policy to do a C-section. Meagan: Yeah, they will not induce you, but then if you don't go into labor by 40 weeks, they have to schedule a C-section. What's the evidence there, and why is that even being a policy?A lot of providers after 40 weeks fear or they say that VBAC uterine rupture chances skyrocket after 40 weeks because, “Oh, that baby is getting bigger. They're stretching that uterus out,” but that's really not necessarily the case. We're seeing it happen more and more and more where people are then doubting their body's ability to give birth or go into labor. They are so scared that their baby's going to get so big that they're going to cause uterine rupture if they go past 40 weeks. I mean, really. You guys, the amount of things that we see coming in The VBAC Link's DM's– I love that you guys write us. Please keep writing us, but it's frustrating, not that you're writing us, but that these providers are telling people these things. Then we have the opposite that we have to induce by 40 weeks. Julie: Can I read you this thing? There's a post in The VBAC Link Community today. It was a VBAC agreement form. If you're birthing at a hospital, you're more than likely going to have to sign a piece of paper showing all of the risks of VBAC, but they don't ever make you do that for a C-section. This hospital VBAC policy, hold on. I was reading it this morning. Listen to this. This is word for word from this VBAC agreement form from a hospital. “I am aware that the best chance for a successful VBAC is to go into spontaneous labor, and that the risk of Cesarean section is increased past my due date. In an effort to afford me the best chance of achieving VBAC, I agree to be induced the 39th week of pregnancy or sooner if medical issues are present if I am still pregnant.”In that same paragraph, they say that the best chance of a successful VBAC is going into spontaneous labor, but if you don't go into labor by 39 weeks, we're going to induce you. Meagan: It also says that after 40 weeks, Cesarean chances increase so we have to induce a whole week before. Julie: Yeah. Right? Meagan: I'm sorry. Julie: This is real life. How is this even a thing? Blah, blah, blah. That's what I say. Screw your policy. How can you contradict yourself like that? It says, “The risk of a Cesarean section is increased past my due date, but it's also increased if you induce me, so either way I have increased risk.” This is literally what they are telling you in this form that they make you sign. Meagan: You know, those forms are so important to pay attention to, you guys. As you are getting these forms, the VBAC consent forms, or VBAC agreement forms or whatever. They title them all differently. Julie: I'm just reading this hospital policy more. Sorry. “I am aware of the hospital policy requiring two IV access sites.” Meagan: Okay. Today, which you guys, was last– I'm trying to think. It was a month ago. Okay, a month ago– I recorded the episode today, but a month ago, when this is coming out. Go listen to Paige's midwifery episode. She just was talking about that. That is a policy within the hospital that she helps people at. They have two hep locks. This was news to me as of today, and now you are seeing this in this policy. Why? Why? What is the evidence behind that? Why?Julie: This VBAC agreement form is every single thing that we are talking about. “I agree to have continuous fetal monitoring. I am aware of this policy by this obstetric group–.” I won't say it because maybe we shouldn't call them out. Maybe we should. “--to require epidural placement by the time of active labor. I am aware of the implication that certain complications of labor can be life-threatening to myself and my baby. These can only be addressed promptly at the hospital. To lessen the risk of delay during a complication, I agree (in bold)--”Meagan: Yes. All of the agrees are in bold.Julie: “--to come to the hospital immediately if I am in labor or if my water breaks.”Meagan: Ugh. Julie: “I have been adequately about the risks, benefits, and alternatives of VBAC, and have the opportunity to ask questions. I am aware that no one is able to guarantee a successful VBAC and that repeat C-section may be indicated if my baby is breech, I do not adequately dilate, I am able to push my baby out, my baby does not tolerate labor, there is a concern for uterine rupture, or if any unforeseen medical issue arises during my pregnancy which makes labor unsafe–” according to who?Anyways, “certain methods of induction of labor are not permitted to be used in patients with prior Cesarean sections. I understand that if I am induced, the only safe options include medical dilation with a balloon, Pitocin, and breaking my water.” That, I feel like, is accurate. Meagan: That is valid. That is valid. Okay.Julie: That's the only one. Cool. Meagan: Cool. Out of ten. Julie: Are you reading this right now? Do you have it up?Meagan: Yes. I pulled it up. Let's talk about epidural. You guys, this has 86 comments already. One of the commenters said, “You absolutely do not need to get an epidural, have continuous monitoring, or go into the hospital when labor begins. These are often things to avoid when trying for a VBAC.” Julie: Yes. Yes. Meagan: You absolutely can have these things. “You can have these things, but having an epidural before 6 centimeters can put you at a higher risk of Cesarean including continuous monitoring. Your rights override policies.” This is what she said. She said, “Are you in the States? Did you sign this?” Julie: But I love what Flor Cruz with Badass Mother Birth said. “This is atrocious. Run. I would rather give birth in the woods by myself than to agree with this monstrosity.” Meagan: Really, though. We have so many things coming at us. We're so vulnerable when we are pregnant, and we want a VBAC so badly. We have forms like this being given, or we have policies being thrown at us, and we say, “Just say no,” but when you're in that moment, it's really difficult. I think something that I want to say is, as you are learning these policies, as you're learning more, figure out if you are someone who can stand up to these policies and say no, or figure out if there's someone on your team who you need to have be there to help you find the strength to say no. Also, make sure that your family knows and your team knows what's important to you when it comes to these policies. What triggers you? It is very difficult to say no or, “I am not going to do that,” or to not even say a word because they just strap the monitors on you, or call anesthesia because they just did a cervical exam, and the nurse logged that you're 6 centimeters, so anesthesia is just coming down, but you might be doing really well and not want an epidural. Okay, I want to talk about epidurals. Julie: Let's talk about epidurals. Jinx. Let's do it. This is my favorite policy to tear apart and rip apart. Here's the thing. The reason why they tell you they want an epidural placed, but you don't have to have it turned on, just to have it placed just in case, is if a uterine rupture happens, you can dose up the epidural and go back to surgery, and they don't have to put you under anesthesia. It sounds great, right? Cool, yeah. Let's do that. That sounds great. I don't want to go under general anesthesia if I have to have a C-section. Here's the problem with that. First of all, going under general anesthesia does carry more risks than having surgery with a spinal or an epidural. It does. That's just common knowledge. Nobody is going to argue that here. We get that. The problem is that in a true emergency, we're talking about seconds matter. Minutes matter. If you have a catastrophic uterine rupture and baby has to be out now, baby has to be out in minutes or less. They are going to do a splash and dash. They are going to throw the antiseptic, the orange stuff– Meagan: Iodine? Julie: Iodine. They're going to throw iodine on your belly, and they're going to slice you open. Sorry, that was a very not-sensitive way to say that. They're going to take the baby out as fast as possible once you're in the OR. They have to knock you out under general anesthesia. There is not enough time to dose an epidural, especially if it's not ever turned on. But even if it is turned on, it takes 20 minutes or more to get an epidural dose to surgical strength to where you will not feel the incision and the surgery that comes with a C-section. 15-20 minutes at minimum in order to get you dosed to surgical strength. If you have an epidural, and it is urgent where minutes matter, you will have to go under general anesthesia no matter what, period. If a C-section is needed, there is time to give you a spinal which takes effect in just a few minutes, 3-4 minutes. It takes some time to get the anesthesiologist in and the OR prepped and things like that, but usually and realistically, if it's something that's urgent but not emergent, you can get a baby out in 10-15 minutes without already having an epidural placed. Here's the thing. Placing an epidural is preparing you for surgery, period. If there's an emergency, you will have to be put under general anesthesia, period. If a C-section is needed, and minutes don't matter, but we need to get this baby out soon, you can get a spinal, period. So, screw that epidural hospital policy. It's literally for convenience so you already have an epidural placed so that they can take you back to do a C-section. Meagan: Yeah. But again, the epidural just doesn't get in fast enough even if it's placed or not. Julie: Exactly. Meagan: Ugh, I hate it. I hate when it's like, “I don't want an epidural, but I'm getting it just in case.” Okay, then going back to this policy that she was just reading, “will not labor at home. If my water breaks, I have to come right in.” You guys, if you want to labor at home, do your research. I understand. Always, always– I don't even care if you are a VBAC or you're planning an induction or what. Always learn the signs of uterine rupture, always. It's so important to know. Even though it happens very little, it happens, and we need to know the signs. But, it's okay to labor at home. Talk to your provider about that. If they are like, “The second you have a contraction, you have to come in,” that is a red flag. You guys, they also start monitoring and pushing induction even though your labor has been going. They induce your labor more. They get it going further. What if you're having prodromal labor, and it's just going, and then it stops for 5 hours? There are so many things. I'm no provider. I can't say, “You must labor at home,” or “You should really labor at home,” but really look at these things and understand what could happen if you choose to go in the second your water breaks. Let me tell you what happened to me. My water broke. I went straight in. Within an hour, I hadn't progressed too much, so they started Pitocin. They immediately started Pitocin. They kept cranking it up. My body was struggling. I was struggling. My baby had a couple of decels. They called it. It's just really, really frustrating. I mean, you guys. We have so many comments in this here that I could just read all of them because they say a lot. They say a lot. This is fear-based care. I'm sorry that you're having to go through this.” “This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard,” someone said. Julie: Seriously. Meagan: When it comes to hospital policy, it's not a law. It's really not a law. Stand up for yourself. Understand the policies surrounding VBAC. When you are looking for a provider, we cannot stress this enough. Ask them about their policies. If their policy is that you must get that just-in-case epidural, you have to have that baby by 40 weeks or we induce or we schedule a Cesarean, you have to come in the second a contraction starts, if your water breaks, you must come in. You have to come in. They're making people sign these policies like they are the law. Julie: Yeah, like it's a legal document like you can't change your mind. That's what it does. It makes people think they have to agree to things. “I signed the document, so here I go.” Meagan: Here I am. I have a written agreement, but they can change. What did it say? What did the very first definition say? It says, “It can be amended, changed, or superseded.” Supersede. Julie: Superseded. Yes. But here's the thing, too. I'm kind of glad when hospitals do this because it shows you all of the red flags. It lines out the red flags, no questions, black and white, red flags laid out for you. Then you know either how to address them before labor, or how to hightail it out of there and find another practice because nothing is worse than getting blindsided during labor by a policy that you don't agree with and having to advocate to change that during labor.I would encourage you if your provider doesn't make you sign a wonky form, then before you even start care with them, find out what their hospital policies are about VBAC. Find out so that you can address them ahead of time. Have your provider sign off on changes to policy that you want, and put it in your medical records so that if you get a different provider on the day that you go into labor, that provider can access your records and see that it has been signed off, or approved, or whatever your changes are that they are going to make to the policy for you and your specific needs. It is okay to ask for that. It is okay to fight for that. It is necessary to fight for that sometimes. Obviously, it would be ideal for you to find a birth location whose policies align with the things that you want. Sometimes, somebody might want continuous fetal monitoring. Maybe it makes them feel better mentally. Maybe that's just their preference, and that's okay. It's okay to want that, but it's not okay to let a system dictate how you want to birth when you want something different. Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. It's also not okay for you to feel cornered or like you're bad, coerced, or you're a bad mom because you're making a decision that goes against a policy. I don't like that. I do not like that. It's not okay. I highly suggest going and checking out the show notes and reading more about your birth rights, what they mean, and all of it. In part of that little birth rights document pdf, the 65-page document, it talks about down in the first 4 or 5 pages– let's see. It says, “I have the right to–”, and then it has a whole bunch of things. It says, “To say no and be heard. To have my basic needs be met. To labor in the way that works for me. To birth vaginally. To know all of my options. To change midwives, doctors, and nurses. To not be touched. To ask people to leave. To feed my baby human milk. To leave the hospital or the birth center.” You guys, you have rights. You have rights. You are amazing. Use your rights if you are in a corner that feels like they are being taken away or they're gaslighting you, or coercing you, or whatever it may be. You have rights. Check this document out. I highly suggest it. Talk to your providers. Check out their policies. Dissect the policies. Dissect them. Really break it down. What does that mean? Why is this being put on as a policy?In one policy that Julie just read, it said that they will not induce, and that VBAC is not applicable to being induced with certain things other than x, y, and z. Okay, if you do the research and you learn about that, that is pretty dang valid. That is understandable. That policy has been put in place for your safety. Okay? But there are others that I would say no to. They may be thinking that it's for your safety, but there is no evidence behind them. Dissect them. Learn them. Learn how to advocate for yourself. Get your team ready. Know it's not a law, and love yourself because you deserve more. Okay. Anything else you'd like to add, Julie?Julie: No. I love that. Love yourself. Take ownership. Take ownership of your own birth experience. Don't give it to somebody else. Stand up for yourself. Take ownership. I love what you just said. Love yourself. You deserve to have choices in how you are treated during your birth experience. Meagan: Yes, absolutely. Okay, thanks, everybody. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands