The VBAC Link

We're thrilled to welcome back Dr. Hazel Keedle from Sydney, Australia! Dr. Keedle is a researcher, midwife, Director of Midwifery Academic Programs and Senior Lecturer at Western Sydney University back to discuss her book, A Clinician's Guide to Birth After Cesarean, released in August 2025.In this episode, Hazel shares insight from her years of research into VBAC experiences and clinical care. She talks about birth and the “Olympic coach” analogy, how providers can balance risks between VBAC and repeat cesarean, and the best ways to use research in your decision making.Hazel, Paige, and Lily also unpack the importance of removing terms like trial, fail, and success to better honor every story. Hazel also graciously offers her personal perspective on how clinicians can process difficult outcomes and still show up with compassion, empathy, and belief to help every mother birth the way she desires.The Clinician's Guide to Better Birth After CaesareanBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth The Birth Experience StudyThe VBAC Link Podcast Episode 209 Dr. Keedle's Publication - Debriefing Women's Birth ExperiencesThe Perinatal Experience of Women With a History of Intimate Partner Violence The Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After an induction at 41+3 weeks turned emergency cesarean with her first and a second cesarean at 42 weeks due to failure to progress, Irene had an unmedicated VBA2C with full placenta previa pregnancy that resolved at 30 weeks!Irene started her VBA2C pregnancy journey at a new practice that was not VBAC supportive and told her to schedule a cesarean at her first 8-week appointment. She switched providers at 20 weeks and owes her successful unmedicated VBA2C to the many different people and routines she incorporated into her pregnancy. Irene shares allll of her prep details with us including prayer, meditation, zoning out to Pink Floyd, and how she created a special labor visualization ritual so that when it was time for the real thing, she was excited, ready, and so at peace. She says, “If providers aren't informing you about all the resources out there that you can utilize to prepare for your VBA2C, they're likely not going to be very supportive during your birth.”Keywords: VBAC, placenta previa, birth stories, maternal health, pregnancy, women's empowerment, childbirth education, supportive care, doula, prenatal preparation The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C: The Facts and StatisticsThe VBAC Link Blog: 6 Ways to Physically Prep for VBACThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“You only have to make one good decision at a time.” We are so excited to welcome our very own TVL team member, Ashley Marg, back on the podcast today! Ashley is our Maternal Health & Communication Strategist and you will find her beautifully writing VBAC content on our blog and in your email inboxes. You can find her first three birth stories in depth on Episode 249, but after a short recap, Ashley shares her rollercoaster of a 2VBA2C story. Her fourth birth was an induced 2VBA2C at 40+5 due to a failed biophysical profile and advanced maternal age. Ashley talks about her emotional induction with a Foley, the moment she knew she needed to ask for an epidural, and a surprise ending! More than anything, Ash wants our community to know that you do not have to commit to a date, a plan, or a schedule in birth. You just have to make the next good decision.Ashley also shares how her calm, steady doula changed the entire vibe of her birth. She talks about her path to doula work and how it led to joining The VBAC Link team. We are SO grateful to have Ashley as part of our team and know you will feel the warmth and wisdom that we love so much about her!Episode 249 Ashley's VBA2C + Postdates + Releasing FearsThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We're bringing you a bonus episode this week!!Your new hosts Lily and Paige sit down and turn the tables on each other with a fun game of 20 Questions. They share everything from their personal backgrounds to their favorite things, silly stories, and opening up about what led them to The VBAC Link and doula work.They also talk about their hopes for the future of the podcast and how much they've already loved working together. While change can feel big, they're so grateful for this community and excited for what's ahead. Most of all, Paige and Lily promise to keep showing up with heart and continuing to bring you the best education, support, and encouragement to help you feel empowered on your journey to a beautiful birth experience!And if you have more questions for either Lily or Paige, send us an email at info@thevbaclink.com.Episode 357 Paige's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in South KoreaEpisode 379 Lily Wyn's 66-Hour Redemptive Hospital Water Birth VBACThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We've been keeping this secret for months and are so excited that we get to finally share!!Join us in this tender and bittersweet episode as we honor Meagan for the legacy she has created through her work hosting this podcast. Meagan has changed SO many lives, and our TVL team is so happy she's sticking around to help this movement continue to grow and thrive!And let's give the warmest welcome to our new hosts of The VBAC Link podcast, Paige and Lily!! Tune in to hear more about who they are and how they fell in love with TVL. To our community of women of strength, birth workers, providers, partners, and anyone who finds themselves listening to our podcast, we thank you for being here. As we evolve, The VBAC Link is ALWAYS committed to providing stories, information, and hope to make birth after cesarean the best it can possibly be!Episode 357 Paige's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in South KoreaEpisode 379 Lily Wyn's 66-Hour Redemptive Hospital Water Birth VBACThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

For this last episode of 2025, we wanted to emphasize just how unique all VBAC journeys really are, and Amanda's story does just that! Women of Strength, VBACs are possible in sooo many different scenarios, even the ones that weren't planned or prepped for. Amanda thought she was having a planned C-section, but with a little gentle encouragement from her care team, she ended up with an unplanned, completely intervention-free VBAC. The way Amanda's team communicated with her every step of the way is SO COOL to hear about.Her first birth was a traumatic crash C-section with NICU time and postpartum anxiety/OCD, but her second was healing and empowering. Amanda wants other moms to know that while you don't have to do all the “things” to have a VBAC, prep can make a big difference.We're so grateful to our podcast guests, listeners, and support this year!Andddd…..We are excited to share some BIG news for the podcast in 2026. Stay tuned for next week's HUGE announcement! Any guesses on what it might be??Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This Christmas Eve episode is something a little different and very special! For over 400 episodes, you've heard our founder, Meagan Heaton, encourage, educate, and validate women through all types of birth stories. Now, she's slowing down and speaking that encouragement directly to YOU. This episode is just a warm moment to simply pause, breathe, and feel supported.This episode is for all women, in any season. Whether you are preparing for a VBAC, processing a CBAC, riding that healing birth high or struggling through postpartum, Meagan's words are meant to meet you right where you are. She shares how much she loves this community and how deeply she believes in you. May you feel seen, held, and reminded that you are never alone. We are always cheering for you. The Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Kela is an inspiring mama who joins us today sharing her HBA2C story! All three of Kela's pregnancies were planned home births, yet her first two ended in cesarean after long labors labeled “failure to progress”, concerns of chorio, tachycardia, and fever. Though the odds were stacked against her, Kela never let go of the dreamy home birth she knew in her bones was possible. With the support of an incredibly skilled and VBAC-supportive midwife, Kela achieved an incredible home birth after two cesareans! This birth included over nine hours of pushing, continuity of care, and manual cervical scar tissue work during labor. Meagan and Kela dive into more details about cervical scar tissue, something that definitely isn't talked about very much! Kela says, “I knew deep down I could have the vaginal birth I always desired. And I did. It was the farthest thing from easy, but I couldn't have done it without my incredible midwife who owns In Due Season Birth Center. She specializes in VBACs and she believed in me the whole way.”Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Peace on earth begins with birth.”In this powerful episode, Meagan sits down with Anna Lundqvist, founder of Sacred Birth International. Anna is a seasoned midwife from Sweden whose work has evolved into educating birthing families, doulas, and birth professionals on how to protect birth as a sacred, primal, and physiological event. Drawing from years of attending births around the world, Anna now focuses on teaching how to reclaim the innate design of birth, preserve reverence throughout the process, and support mothers in advocating for their autonomy. Her philosophy is rooted deeply in trauma-informed care and physiological birth wisdom. Meagan and Anna let the conversation flow naturally as they dive into induction, cervical checks, trauma, and the harsh realities many families face within the medical system. Anna offers heartfelt insight on processing fears, discerning intuition from anxiety, and why she often encourages VBAC at home for those who feel aligned with that path. Thank you for joining us today, @sacredbirthinternational for a very special conversation!!Content warning: This episode includes frank discussion of birth after sexual abuse and trauma. Please listen with care.Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Women of Strength, you won't want to miss this one!!In today's episode of The VBAC Link Podcast, we welcome Sarah, a mom of three boys, an active duty Air Force officer (AND a spouse to one as well!) about her incredible VBA2C during an overseas PCS move from South Korea to Florida. Sarah's first birth was a c-section for breech presentation. Her second was a scheduled c-section timed around her husband's deployment. Her third pregnancy brought navigating prenatal care in a foreign country, a huge move with two toddlers in tow, and the stress of finding a completely new birth team. After Sarah's water broke unexpectedly at 37 weeks while visiting family in Kentucky, and with all their belongings either in Arizona or on a boat in the Pacific, she was induced so she could labor while a VBAC-supportive doctor was on call. After 11 hours on Pitocin, she delivered her baby vaginally, finished the move and arrived in Florida when her newborn was just one week old. Sarah & Meagan also share tips about using nitrous oxide in labor and important Tricare resources for military families. Though there were wild twists and turns, Sarah got her especially redemptive moment of being fully present for the moment she introduced her new baby to her other boys. We are so proud of you, Sarah!!Nitrous Oxide ArticleNeeded Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Catie, a pediatric physical therapist from Northern Kentucky, joins Meagan on the podcast today sharing her three birth stories– a vaginal delivery, c-section, and VBAC! Catie struggled with hyperemesis gravidarum (among other complications) during all three pregnancies but wasn't officially given the diagnosis until she was hospitalized with her third. By that time, she had researched hard and was ready to proactively manage it, even though her doctor wasn't up-to-date on all of the ways to do that. Catie shares what she did and how it made a world of difference for that third pregnancy.In regards to her births, Catie talks about her first induced vaginal birth, her long, traumatic second labor that ended in an urgent c-section, a PTSD diagnosis, and her healing VBAC that was medically induced at 37 weeks due to Cholestasis. After her traumatic second birth, Catie really fought for healing. Women of Strength, we cannot stress enough how important this is. Through EMDR, pelvic floor therapy, exercise, and more, Catie gained back the confidence and trust she needed in her body to absolutely rock her VBAC! ICP Care Cholestasis ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: Kick CountsNeeded Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today we're talking with Esther, who shares her eventful six birth journeys and two miscarriages. Esther's stories include four Cesareans, breech twins, placental abruptions, hemorrhage, stillbirth, and two unassisted home births. Her experiences deeply changed her understanding of birth, trauma, and autonomy. Esther faced unexpected involvement from social services and legal pressure around her birthing choices, ultimately leading her to give birth to her sixth baby unassisted and in hiding. She talks about rebuilding trust in her body after trauma, how inflammation and stress played into her pregnancies, and why knowing your rights in birth matters so deeply. Esther was committed to taking care of her own health and the health of her babies by doing whatever it took to birth in the way that felt safest to her. Her stories are honest, brave, and full of determination!**This episode discusses miscarriage, medical trauma, and infant loss. As The VBAC Link Podcast is storytelling by nature, we believe informed decision-making comes from hearing all types of birth after cesarean stories as told by women themselves. We encourage birthing with a supportive, qualified professional, but also recognize that some women give birth without providers for personal or situational reasons. Please take care while listening.**Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to welcome back our favorite registered dietician and bestselling author, Lily Nichols! Lily is here to chat with us about her third book, Real Food for Fertility. She explains how while the title focuses on fertility, this book goes far beyond that, diving into how nutrition supports hormone health and overall well-being at every stage of life.Meagan and Lily talk about nutrition before pregnancy, during pregnancy, and even how diet can sometimes (but not always!) affect a baby's size. Lily also shares her hopes for future research on nutrition recommendations and the important reminder that even small, consistent changes in how we eat can make a meaningful difference. It's truly never too late to start.Is it Too Late to Make Nutrition Changes in Pregnancy?Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffIs it Too Late to Make Nutrition Changes in Pregnancy?Institute for Prenatal Nutrition WebsiteLily's BooksLily's FreebiesLily's InstagramNeeded Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Kari joins us today from Huntsville, Alabama sharing her story of two induced but very different births. Her first was an unplanned Cesarean after a 39-week induction and the second was a medically induced VBAC due to preeclampsia. With her second baby, Kari saw a new provider who was VBAC supportive, hired a doula, and went to a chiropractor. She also found out that she had a velamentous cord insertion and signs of preeclampsia. Although she was planning for a spontaneous, unmedicated labor, Kari was able to have an empowering experience with Pitocin, an epidural, a delivery, magnesium, a 3rd-degree tear, and a blood transfusion, Kari found deep healing and pride in her VBAC experience.She and Meagan talk about blood pressure numbers, preeclampsia, the ARRIVE study, how epidurals can help or hinder progress, and navigating the emotions that come when birth unfolds differently than planned. Kari reminds us that birth can be beautiful and healing no matter what twists and turns come about!The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC With PreeclampsiaACOG Article: Preeclampsia and Blood Pressure During PregnancyNeeded Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I want to be the light I wish I'd had in my darkest moments.” As we close out Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, we are sharing Abbie's two birth stories and honoring the memory of her firstborn, Rowan. Rowan was born prematurely via emergency Cesarean at 29 weeks during the height of COVID and passed several weeks later in the NICU. Abbie shares what it was like to come home from the hospital without a baby, the weight of overwhelming grief, and how self-care has helped her find healing. Her second pregnancy was labeled advanced maternal age and considered high risk. With the support of her care team, Abbie went on to have a healthy and empowering VBAC birth at 41 weeks that was filled with joy and deep healing.Professionally, Abbie is a massage therapist. She shares her tips around things like herbal support, massage therapy, and acupuncture. Abbie wants Women of Strength to know that acknowledging fear doesn't mean we have to act on it. “Be afraid when you're afraid, but do it anyway— whatever it is. Different baby, different birth.” Needed Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to welcome back our friend, Rachel! She shared her first precipitous VBAC story all the way back in Episode 56. This time, she joins us again to talk about her next two VBACs— one of which included an unexpected diagnosis of gastroschisis and the other surprisingly beginning with PROM (premature rupture of membranes).Rachel opens up about navigating gastroschisis and how her care team supported her through it. Though she wasn't sure she'd be able to have another vaginal birth, her provider actually encouraged it as the safest option for baby. Rachel achieved her second VBAC, but had to watch her baby be intubated immediately after birth, hemorrhaged, and was left alone when her husband went to be with their baby. She was thankful for her VBAC, but also deeply traumatized by the scary circumstances. With her fourth, Rachel decided to give birth in the hospital. She experienced PROM for the first time, back labor with an OP baby, and had her first sweet baby girl. From the prep before to the processing after, each of Rachel's births were truly their own story. Women of Strength, you are strong enough to handle whatever birth throws your way, and Rachel is a beautiful example of just that.Gastroschisis ArticleEpisode 56 Rachel's First VBAC StoryNeeded Website: Code VBAC for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today we're revisiting one of our earliest episodes — Episode 13 Kelie's VBA4C in Utah! Our audio quality has come a long way since those early days

About her VBA2C, Chloe says, “I've been dreaming of my VBAC for 8 years. When my HBAC turned into a scheduled CBAC, I wasn't even sure I'd get the option to have a VBA2C. It took a lot of planning & hard work & I knew as a first time labouring mom that it would be a longer labor but I completely underestimated just how long… Dreams came true New Years Eve as fireworks went off & my husband & I welcomed our daughter!”Chloe's first birth was a scheduled Cesarean due to a partial placenta previa. For her second, she was planning an HBAC, but after going overdue with no signs of labor, concerns about her baby's size, and a CPD diagnosis, she had another scheduled Cesarean. For her VBA2C baby, Chloe went all in. She connected with supportive providers, leaned into physical prep, and was so inspired from other women's stories on The VBAC Link Podcast.Chloe labored hard for almost 3 days and was progressing veryyy slowly. Though it wasn't what she thought she'd want at 3 cm, she got an epidural and AROM which ended up being incredibly helpful! Her midwife even said that she pushed as though she had delivered five babies. Take that, CPD!

Women of Strength, we are making waves. We are so excited to be sharing our second Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast today! There are so many beautiful details within Brianna's entire episode that you will not want to miss. In the small town of Crosby, Minnesota with a population of less than 3,000, Brianna was the first MAC under a brand-new policy. About her birth, she says: “While I didn't get my VBAC, I did get a redemptive and healing birth. It just goes to show that acceptance, advocacy, and will power go a long way! I never thought I'd be happy to be writing my testimonial after experiencing all C-section births. My first birth was in August of 2020 where she was breech. It was in the week following her birth that I jumped into all things VBAC. My second birth was complicated by preeclampsia where what was supposed to be my redemptive VBAC turned CBAC when my blood pressure wouldn't cooperate. This birth was traumatic and gave me more grief than my first birth experience. This leads me to my third and final birth story where I changed providers at 20 weeks. I was active and proactive in my own mental and physical health. I ultimately decided that I wanted a Maternal Assisted C-section after seeing Paige's story on The VBAC Link. I thought it would be nearly impossible in small-town Minnesota, but ended up finding my voice and a provider who was extremely supportive. In May 2025, my daughter was born in my hands in the OR. While my grief of not getting a vaginal birth isn't gone, it is much quieter. And despite not getting my VBAC experience, I have found extreme peace and healing in the autonomy and active participation of my maternal assisted cesarean. I encourage all women who are experiencing grief with their birthing experience to get educated, find a supportive provider, keep an open mind, and to not give up.”The VBAC Link Podcast Episode 357 Paige's MACThe VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220 Dr. Natalie ElphinstoneHow to Cope When You Don't Get Your VBACHow to Heal a Bad Birth BookNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Why is it that most avenues of healthcare delay preventative intervention, but when it comes to birth, there is so much more of a fear-based “just in case” mindset? Elisabeth, her doula (and our TVL team member!) Ashley Marg, and Julie Francom talk about how most of the time we can trust the physiological process of birth, yet providers often don't. Elisabeth's first birth was a whirlwind. After pushing at 9.5cm for 4 hours and feeling extremely exhausted with a swollen cervix, she consented to a Cesarean. But in the OR, her fetal ejection reflex kicked in and the doctor realized she was complete— minutes after the spinal block had already been given. She managed one more push, then the numbness took over and contractions stopped. Baby was too high for a vacuum, yet low enough that her doctor needed to push baby back up for the Cesarean. As you can imagine, her recovery was difficult, but her fire to educate herself all about birth was ignited. Elisabeth knew things could be different and fought for a redemptive VBAC! Discussion topics: Post-dates, evidence-based info, fetal ejection reflex, swollen cervix, induction, membrane sweep, artificial rupture of membranes, birth tub, preeclampsia misdiagnosis, spinal block, doulaNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jennifer is a mom to three boys, each born in a different decade. Her first birth started out spontaneously but, after going to the hospital early and experiencing many interventions, ended in an emergency Cesarean under general anesthesia with an inverted T incision.For her second birth, Jennifer was excited to try for a VBAC but learned about her special scar and, trusting her doctor's advice, scheduled a repeat Cesarean.By the time her third baby came along, Jennifer was older, wiser, and ready to fight for the birth she knew was possible. With insulin-controlled gestational diabetes, she went into labor spontaneously and even left one hospital AMA to find the support she needed. Her determination paid off when she went on to have her VBA2C!Jennifer's story is full of faith, courage, and the reminder that instead of being fear-based, our decisions should be ones that bring us the most peace.Discussion Topics: gestational diabetes, VBAC, special scars, inverted T, repeat Cesarean, VBA2C, general anesthesia, spontaneous labor, AMA, changing providers, operative reports, faith affirmations, baby aspirin, fast dilation, fetal scalp electrode, tachycardia, fever, decels, advanced maternal age, pitocin, epiduralNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In today's episode, Julie Francom talks with Diana, who shares her Cesarean and two very different VBAC stories. Diana's journey began with a Cesarean birth including a velamentous cord insertion and a long, difficult recovery complicated by painful breastfeeding abscesses. For her second baby, she planned a home birth VBAC and euphorically welcomed her baby at home—only to need a hospital transfer for repair of a third-degree “starfish” tear. With her third, Diana prepared for another home birth and experienced her dream waterbirth VBAC with no tearing at all.While Diana's third birth was physically healing, she faced unexpected emotional struggles afterward. She opens up about her experience with postpartum anxiety and depression, reminding us that healing is not only physical, but mental and emotional too.This episode brings important awareness to postpartum mental health and the resources available for support. Julie and Diana discuss the importance of community, professional help, and breaking the silence around postpartum mood disorders.If you had an unexpectedly tough recovery after your VBAC, know that you are not alone! Postpartum Support InternationalThe Postpartum Stress CenterPostpartum UniversityNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Did you know that The VBAC Link is made up of a whole team of VBAC doulas? Our Co-founder and Owner, Meagan Heaton, is joined today on the pod by TVL team members Lily (Director of Social Media & Community Engagement) and Paige (Production Admin & Community Liason) chatting all about questions we see from you in our community— topics like induction methods, providers, where to find info, prepping for VBAC, and the “why” behind everything we do!Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today we are revisiting another one of our favorite episodes! Episode 188 featured Lindsay's amazing story of preparation and perseverance through doubt during her COVID VBAC.Lindsay's first birth was a planned home birth which ultimately resulted in a hospital transfer and emergency C-section. She was left feeling unprepared and unheard and committed to fighting for a VBAC next time. Lindsay worked for months preparing for a VBAC both physically and emotionally. Once labor started, she was coping extremely well with her intense contractions. She arrived to the hospital at 10 centimeters, ready to have her baby!Until…her contractions completely stopped. Lindsay shares with us how she overcame ultimate doubt when pushing continued for over FOUR hours! Doubt can creep in at any time on your VBAC journey. Trust yourself and your preparation. Lean into your supportive birth team. We know you can do this!Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In today's episode, Meagan chats with our friend, Hannah, who is a mom to three little ones under the age of 4. Hannah has had two VBACs that were both unique in their own ways. Her first birth was an induction that led to an unplanned Cesarean. She was induced for the convenience of avoiding the upcoming holidays and to prevent her baby from getting too big if she chose to wait for spontaneous labor. While her Cesarean was straightforward and a positive birth, avoiding another tough recovery was the biggest reason why she wanted to have a VBAC.Hannah's second birth included late onset gestational diabetes, PROM (premature rupture of membranes), and a VBAC with a 3rd-degree tear in every direction. With her third birth, she also had late onset gestational diabetes, spontaneous labor, a stall, a scary shoulder dystocia, and a VBAC with a 2nd-degree tear. Hannah says that even with the complications during her VBACs, she would choose those recoveries over her Cesarean recovery every time. We know the choice to VBAC is deeply personal, but an easier recovery is often a huge benefit to having a VBAC! Discussion Topics: shoulder dystocia, 18-month duration, close pregnancy duration, two VBAC stories, labor dystocia, calcium bicarbonate, TUMs, Pitocin, induction, uterine receptors, PROM (premature rupture of membranes), holidays, Cesarean recovery, perineal tears, late onset gestational diabetes, epidural, hospital VBAC, backup doula, unavailable provider, failure to progressNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Our co-founder, Julie Francom, hosts today's episode with Heather from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Heather talks today about her journey with IVF for her first pregnancy and conceiving spontaneously with her second. Heather's first birth involved infertility, ovulation inducers, IUI's (including a chemical pregnancy), solo appointments during COVID, and a C-section due to fetal tachycardia. She conceived naturally with her second, and also talks about the power of a chiropractor and the details of her positive VBAC induction at 39 weeks at only 1cm and 10% effaced due to gestational hypertension. Heather had a Foley bulb, Pitocin, lots of movement, Fentanyl, an epidural, peanut ball, AROM, pushed for a few hours, and met her sweet baby! The Fertility Docs Uncensored PodcastNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to have Deb Flashenberg on the podcast today! She is the founder and director of the Prenatal Yoga Center in NYC. Along with being a prenatal yoga teacher, she is also a doula, Lamaze childbirth educator, Postpartum Corrective Exercise Specialist, Spinning Babies Parent Educator and mother of two. After a tough first birth experience, Deb became incredibly passionate about all things pelvic health. She started her own podcast, Yoga | Birth | Babies, and joins Meagan today to show us the benefits of 360-degree breathing, being comfortable with the uncomfortable, which positions to shoot for in the each stage of labor, and how to find “Goldilocks” within our pelvic floor!Breathe with Deb on YouTubeDeb's WebsiteNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Happy Wednesday, Women of Strength! Today we are joined by our friend, Nichole, from Nevada who shares her SEVEN birth stories. Nichole has had a wild ride when it comes to birth. Every story is so different and so unique. This episode is jam-packed with things like placental abruption, NICU time, preeclampsia, a surprise HBA2C, induced VBA2C, changing providers, and two VBA3C stories. Her last birth, a 2VBA3C, sparks an important conversation about how interventions can sometimes be a necessary part of a successful VBAC. Knowing the general pros and cons of interventions is just the first step. We all then have to apply what we've learned to our specific situations, adapt, and do what feels best to us!Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are bringing back the VBAC dads!! In this rebroadcast, Julie and Meagan interview 5 VBAC dads who share their tips, fears, and highlights of the VBAC journey.Each dad answers these questions:- What do you wish you knew before VBAC and what are you glad you did know?- Did you have any fears for your partner and what helped you overcome them?- Did you have a doula and would you recommend one?- What advice would you give a birth partner preparing for a VBAC?Let's hear it for all of those supportive birth partners out there bringing in the oxytocin boosts and positive affirmations!

After a peaceful, scheduled Cesarean for breech presentation, Erika knew she wanted a VBAC—even before becoming pregnant again. When red flags appeared with her original provider, she switched to a supportive OB who stayed steady even when Erika had doubts. Erika prepared deeply with The VBAC Link Podcast episodes, blogs, pelvic floor PT, chiropractic care, and a skilled doula. Her healing VBAC brought immediate skin-to-skin, a dreamy uninterrupted gold hour, and ultimately helped detect a rare condition of AVM that saved her baby's life. Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffThe Ultimate VBAC Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Felicia grew up with a profound trust in the power of VBAC— her mom was a midwife and had a beautiful home birth after four Cesareans! So when Felicia's first birth ended in a Cesarean, there was no doubt in her mind that she would pursue a VBAC next time. She educated herself, built a strong support system, obsessed over all things VBAC, and went into her second pregnancy with clarity and confidence.But birth doesn't always go according to plan.Felicia shares her journey of planning for a VBAC and ultimately having a second medically necessary Cesarean after laboring hard with grace and power. She reflects on her difficult recovery, navigating grief, reconciling expectations with reality, yet still finding peace, empowerment, and healing in her experience.Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Christy shares her whirlwind VBAC story after two vaginal births and a Cesarean. After testing GBS positive, Christy made the intentional decision to deliver at a hospital she deeply trusted, even though it was 1.5 hours from home. But when labor kicked in fast and hard, she barely made it in time. Her birth progressed so quickly that while she ultimately had the birth she hoped for, she still needed to grieve the slower, more peaceful experience she had envisioned. During her VBAC, Christy thought she wouldn't want to be touched—yet touch grounded her. She expected to find comfort in music and calm mantras—but discovered she was more motivated by direct, no-nonsense encouragement. Her ability to adapt came from deep trust and confidence both in herself and in her carefully chosen team.Christy's story is for anyone who needs a reminder that your birth story, even when unpredictable, can still be just what you need.Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In today's episode, Anne Marie shares her intuitive, unmedicated VBAC journey. From building a trusting relationship with her supportive OBGYN to finding peace with all possible birth outcomes, her story is a powerful reminder of the strength that comes from informed decision-making and listening to our bodies!.Anne Marie takes us through her experience of moving freely during labor, naturally finding positions that worked for her, and ultimately pushing with her knees in—a position her body instinctively chose. She talks about how she worked through fears from her previous birth and how her provider honored her autonomy every step of the way.Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Vanessa was born and raised in Brazil, a country with sky-high cesarean rates. Moving to the US inspired her to pursue her doula career, even before she became pregnant herself. Vanessa's own birth experiences were very different. Her first birth was a Cesarean after a birth center transfer. While it was medically necessary, it was very unexpected and traumatic. After a lot of processing and birth trauma therapy, she was ready to give birth again. Vanessa pursued a home birth for her second birth that was wonderfully straightforward and beautiful, surrounded by the people she loved most!She now lives just outside of Boston with her husband, two daughters and her mother. Her passion is to support other immigrant women in her community navigate the US healthcare system, and to know they have options when it comes to childbirth, especially when it comes to VBAC. Vanessa's WebsiteVanessa's InstagramVanessa's FacebookNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsOnline VBAC Doula TrainingSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so excited to have Nicole Vandermeyen with Subtle Healing Health on the podcast today!Nicole shares how her history of childhood leukemia and awful first pregnancy and birth experience solidified her commitment to holistic health. Through subtle changes in nutrition and influence healing, her overall health improved drastically, and she now helps other women do the same! As a holistic health practitioner and a mother, Nicole specializes in working with clients who are working on building stronger family bonds and emotional resilience. She even shares some specifics techniques you can try that can make a huge difference!Nicole's YouTube ChannelNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so happy to have Julie Sawaya back with us on The VBAC Link Podcast today! Julie is the co-founder of Needed, a mama, and a lifelong nutrition nerd. As the most nutritionally aware of their friends, Julie and her co-founder Ryan were shocked to realize through nutrient testing that they were severely deficient in key nutrients needed for a healthy pregnancy. They dug into the research and realized they were not alone. 97% of women take a prenatal, and yet 95% have nutrient deficiencies. Most prenatal vitamins just weren't cutting it. So Julie and Ryan started Needed to create a new, higher standard for perinatal health. Together they've redesigned the products, education, and experiences women need. From their prenatals to their cognitive support to their collagen protein, our team personally uses and loves Needed products. We love Julie's heart for educating women in an empowering way— exactly what we stand for here at TVL!Needed Research InfoNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Like the literal hurricane she labored through, Nicole's story is one of overcoming life's storms, giving grace, and finding joy. Nicole's first birth was a C-section to best protect her daughter who had a low heart rate due to multiple congenital heart defects. But unfortunately after three precious years, her daughter passed. Nicole worked hard to find healing from so much layered emotional and medical trauma. When she was ready to have another baby, she knew she wanted a VBAC. Nicole researched heavily, formed a trusting partnership with her provider, and was very intentional about every decision along the way.Her second birth experience was a true testament to the powerful lessons birth teaches in all of its intimate ways. Nicole's second sweet daughter made her way into the world via VBAC at 12:21 am just minutes after her first daughter's birthday— a powerful symbol that Nicole knew signified a new day and a beautiful new chapter.Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lauren joins us today from New Jersey sharing her wild ride (literally!) to a VBAC! Lauren's first birth was a spontaneous labor ending in a crash Cesarean under general anesthesia at 39 weeks due to fetal distress. Though she was complete and tried pushing, baby was still high and showing that he needed to be born right away.She prepared diligently for a VBAC by listening to multiple VBAC Link Podcast episodes a day and included her faith every step of the way. Her second birth was a precipitous VBAC at 36 weeks after falling days earlier— ending in an unmedicated VBAC in an ambulance! It was not what she expected, yet everything she wanted. Needed Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

”This VBAC has changed who I am as a woman.” Proactive preparation matters in birth!!While we don't want to obsess about it in an unhealthy way, prep work can make a huge difference in your birth experience. Chelsea is an amazing example of how that prep pays off. After a very long, exhausting 40+hr labor and Cesarean birth, Chelsea knew she needed a different experience the next time around. Chelsea took charge of what she could during her second pregnancy. She did deep internal work, vigorously prepped her mind and body, educated herself, and invested in an empowering birth team. Her intuition led Chelsea to birth at home, and it was a completely different experience from her first in so many powerful ways!Chelsea's Podcast: Growing Up Raising UsNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Andrea joins us in the podcast today from Kansas City! She is a mom of two and a pediatric oncology nurse. Andrea shares how her experience as a nurse impacted both of her very different births. After her traumatic Cesarean, Andrea knew how critically important it would be to find healing inside and out before giving birth again. Andrea sought EMDR therapy from a therapist who specialized in birth trauma. She describes her experience with EMDR, including specifics about the process itself and the exhaustion that came with it. She says that even though healing is HARD work, it made all of the difference during her second birth.Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% OffNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Trish Ware is the Labor Nurse Mama! As a high-risk labor and delivery nurse for 16 years and mom of 7, she has helped deliver thousands of babies and seen it all. Trish founded The Birth Experience to help empower women through birth education. Her true passion lies in teaching families how to make informed choices. You will NOT want to miss this bold episode. Trish and Meagan do not hold back as they share the things they have seen in the birth space, what they wish birthing women/partners knew, and how to avoid common pitfalls to achieve the most empowering birth experience and outcome possible.Labor Nurse Mama WebsiteNeeded Prenatal Vitamins: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are celebrating a HUGE milestone over here: 400 episodes of The VBAC Link Podcast! Beginning as a phonecall in Target from Julie Francom to Meagan Heaton in 2018, The VBAC Link Podcast now has over 1.3 million episode downloads, guests from all over the world, a management and production team, parent and doula education courses, a thriving social media platform, and a legacy of stories from YOU that have allowed VBAC to be accessible more than ever before. Your stories have provided the inspiration and education to show women just how many options there are when giving birth after a Cesarean. Whether it is VBAC, HBAC, CBAC, VBAMC, RCS, MAC, or anything in between, it has been a privilege to connect with you and learn from you. We love you, Women of Strength!Coterie Diapers: Use Code VBAC20 for 20% OffNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katelyn is a mother of three beautiful daughters with three entirely different birth stories. Her first birth was a Cesarean after three forceps attempts, her second was a scheduled repeat Cesarean, and her third was a long, tough labor ending in a successful VBA2C! Katelyn talks about making sacrifices to switch providers, spirituality, prodromal labor, nuchal hands, and how to navigate a home birth transfer to the hospital. Though many parts of her VBA2C didn't go as she planned, Katelyn was able to listen to her intuition, pivot, and make wise decisions to have a beautifully healing experience. The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C Facts and StatisticsUterine Rupture ArticleNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“The wound can become a gift.”After a traumatic and long birth that ended in a C-section, Ramieka did extensive research on providers in the central California area to find the most supportive option, and was willing to travel for that support. She utilized pelvic floor therapy, chiropractic, and a VBAC Link Certified doula to achieve a redemptive, unmedicated VBAC.Julie and Rameika talk about what doulas can contribute to the birth space. When Rameika had a stall in her labor, her doula knew just what to do. After a series of abdominal lifts, it was time to push, and her beautiful baby girl was born. The VBAC Link Blog: Evidence on DoulasTVL Blog: Mental Preparation for VBACTVL Blog: Questions to Ask Your Provider Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Jen Fraboni, PT, DPT, is an internationally-renowned physical therapist who specializes in helping people overcome chronic pain and maximize physical performance. As the founder of the new platform and app, “Jen.Health,” she brings a unique, whole body approach to strength, mobility and pain-free living.  Dr. Jen is the co-host with her husband, who is also a Doctor of Physical Therapy, to a popular podcast called "The Optimal Body Podcast.” They live in Southern California with their two beautiful boys. She shares her own VBAC story with a failure to progress diagnosis with her 7-pound first baby, and an unmedicated VBAC with her 9-pound second baby! Though she had some postpartum complications, Dr. Jen says that her VBAC was absolutely worth it and so empowering. Dr. Jen also teaches us all about the pelvic floor and how pelvic floor PT can help a smoother and more effective pushing phase!Dr. Jen's WebsiteNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Darby Swan is a faith-based birth doula and the owner of Boundless Grace Birth Services in Central Kentucky. With a passion for supporting expectant families, she provides evidence-based information and nurturing care throughout the pregnancy and birth journey. As the host of the podcast "Birth By Design," Darby shares valuable insights and experiences, inspiring parents to embrace their unique birth stories. She is also an author, writing a postpartum book that emphasizes physical recovery from a faith-based perspective. In addition to her work, Darby enjoys homesteading with her husband and raising their two children.In today's episode, Meagan and Darby discuss the lack of birthing support in Kentucky, specifically when it comes to VBAC. They talk about the power of words in the birth space and the impact of saying things like ‘“try”, “failure to progress”, “allow”, and elect”. Words matter!Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

From a very unexpected pregnancy to navigating a challenging first birth experience, Shannon joins us today to share the steps she took to achieve a successful VBAC. Shannon describes pregnancy with Ehlers–Danlos Syndrome and insufficient glandular tissue (IGT). She was able to seek support and get the proper progesterone supplementation with her second pregnancy to help with her breastfeeding goals. Though she hadn't had a prior history of high blood pressure, Shannon was medically induced at 38 weeks for high readings. With the help of her incredible doula and a patient team, Shannon was able to make wise decisions around her induction plan. Her labor was over 48 hours, but she pushed for just 30 minutes! Even with some tearing and postpartum hemorrhaging after birth, Shannon has been thrilled with her VBAC outcome and postpartum recovery this time around.How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Doula DirectorySupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Meagan welcomes Zoei back to share her inspiring VBAC story with twins! Zoei's first birth was a Cesarean followed by a VBAC with a singleton pregnancy. Her first two birth experiences gave her the confidence to advocate for her VBAC with twins. Her four babies were all born within four years. Zoei talks about how she was able to carry her twins longer than most, the added anxieties from more ultrasounds, advocating for a low and slow induction, and what it was like to push in the OR. Meagan and Zoei discuss misconceptions surrounding vaginal twin births, the lack of evidence-based information, and the importance of finding supportive healthcare providers. Episode 205 Zoei's First VBAC Link EpisodeCleveland Clinic Article: Twin PregnancyThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC With TwinsNeeded Website: Code VBAC20 for 20% OffHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are celebrating the week of TWINS by revisiting Jill's beautiful twin VBAC story from 2019. This episode is packed with valuable statistics about VBAC and twin pregnancies. Jill's first birth was a C-section due to failure to progress. Her second was a hospital VBAC at 39+5 over the course of 4 days with a very patient and supportive provider. When she found out she was pregnant with twins, Jill knew she wanted to stay with her same provider. Though she was encouraged to be induced, Jill advocated for spontaneous labor and had a smooth, uncomplicated twin vaginal delivery! The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC With TwinsRisk of Uterine Rupture ArticleCoterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Julie welcomes Sophia from Mexico City, who shares her mental, physical, and spiritual journey towards achieving her VBAC. Sophia discusses the challenges she faced in navigating the healthcare system in Mexico, and what she did to find a truly VBAC-supportive provider. While preparing for her VBAC, Sophia had a hard time finding well-documented VBAC stories from Mexico, so she hopes to inspire other women through her story. Sophia and Julie talk about the role of a mother's intuition in the birth space. Making confident decisions when you feel safe and supported is so powerful!Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Julie Francom here with you today, and I am super excited to talk with our guest today, Sophia. She is from Mexico City, Mexico, and her VBAC story takes place there as well. I absolutely love hearing birth stories from all over the world, so I cannot wait to hear Sophia's story. But before we get started with that, I do have a really short and sweet Review of the Week. This one is from Google. It's a Google review and she says simply, "Great people sharing great information. They make me feel less alone in my journey to a VBAC". I'm so grateful for that review. I think that that is one of the most important reasons why Meagan and I wanted to start The VBAC Link is because our own journeys felt very lonely at times even though we were connected to the birth world and we had a strong birth community, there are certain parts of wanting a vaginal birth after having a C-section that are just very, very lonely. We are grateful for that review. We hope that whoever is listening now also feels a little less alone in this journey because we absolutely love you, and we are so grateful that you are here with us.All right, let's get going. I have Sophia here today. Like I said, Sophia's from Mexico City, Mexico. I'm just going to sit down and be quiet and listen because I have heard lots of really interesting and crazy and cool things about Mexico City, so I'm excited to hear her birth experience there. Sophia is the mother of Luca and Rio. I just said that. I'm just reading her bio right now. She says,  "I'm a Mexican and live in Mexico City." Perfect. She is a passionate advocate for women's rights and strongly believes in the magic that results from women building together, connecting, and supporting each other. Her motherhood journey has been very humbling and healing, and she is obsessed with talking about birth. Me too, girl. I am obsessed with talking about birth as well, so I'm excited to hear your story. I'm just going to go ahead and let you take it away, and we're going to talk.I'm sorry. I said I'm going to let you take it away, but really, I'm going to keep talking for just a second. I loved reading through your story, sharing about your birth team and prodromal labor and the different things that you did to keep labor going and moving along. I am really excited to talk at the end after we hear your story about some different things that you can do to prepare for a VBAC, both mentally, physically and all of the ways. So now for real, I'm going to let you go ahead and share your story with us. Thank you.Sophia: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's truly a dream come true to be here in the podcast. I'm just really honored to tell my story because, when I was starting to prepare for my VBAC, I found it really hard to find well-documented VBAC stories coming from Mexico and in general, from the global South. So I just hope my story helps other women living in similar contexts. So I guess I'll start with the story of my unplanned C-section. So half a year after my husband and I got married, we were ready to have kids. We met on Tinder. We dated for three years, and both of us really had had the opportunity to travel the world and do amazing things. We felt like we had a good pre-kids life, and we were just ready to start a family. I was 34 at the time, and I always wanted to try to get pregnant before I became 35. I got pregnant really fast actually, like the first try. So we were so shocked and excited and surprised. At the time, we were both working remotely in Europe. We were slowly making our way to Australia because my husband is from Australia. This was 2021 and as some of you might remember, Australia was under super restrictive lockdown. No one could come in. No one could get out, so we had not seen his family for three years, and we were just waiting for the ban to lift to be able to go in and spend some time with them. This is an important part of the story because while I was in Europe, especially in Belgium and in Australia, my pregnancy was taken care of by midwives. Especially in Australia, it's really normal that all healthy pregnancies are attended by midwives, and only those special cases or complicated ones are taken by gynecologists. So my pregnancy was a really healthy, enjoyable one. I am one of those women that really loved being pregnant. I was very lucky with both of my pregnancies. But this experience was so influential because in Mexico, although we have this wonderful history with midwives in Spanish called parteras, and that's actually where the use of Rebozo comes from, this practice continues mostly in rural and particularly in indigenous communities. But in the cities, there is a really concerning high rate of unnecessary Cesareans. There's this narrative that C-sections are the easy way out. I would even dare to say, in the 80s, it became sort of a socioeconomic status thing. Women who have access to private healthcare would just opt for a C-section either because their doctor recommended it to do so or because they just thought it was the easy way out. People would say, "Why would you put yourself under unnecessary pain if you can just go get a C-section?" Like it was nothing, right? So actually, most of the women that I know had a C-section, but having the experience with midwives, I decided I really, really wanted to try to have a natural birth. So I started getting informed. I actually work in philanthropy. I work on social justice issues, so I'm very well connected to feminist and women organizations, especially in Mexico City. I remember that there were all of these colleagues working to defend obstetric rights in Mexico City. I knew that they had a really good network of doulas. It was through them that I connected remotely with my doula, Neri Fernandez, who is amazing. We spoke on Zoom, and we clicked right away. She started preparing me for my return to Mexico. The plan was always to come back to Mexico during the third trimester so I could have my baby here. She started preparing me with the reality that it is to have a natural birth in Mexico City. She told me, "Honestly, there are very few truly labor-friendly hospitals and also very few labor-friendly gynecologists. A lot of them are going tell you that of course they're gonna support you in a natural labor, but around week 37 or so, they're gonna suggest going on a C-section by week 39." So, she gave me this list of questions to ask my gynecologist, the one that I had been seeing for the past five years. So she told me, "Once you get back and you go to your appointment, just use these questions for your conversation with him." At the time, I was very naive, so I was like, oh, I'm sure he's going to support me. I'm not worried about that. Anyway, I came back to Mexico, I went to my appointment, and honestly, in the first five minutes, I noticed that he wanted me to have a C-section for no reason. So I was like, oh, my god. Okay. So I told her, "Neri, I really need to contact another service provider." She gave me a list of labor-friendly doctors. And she told me, "There's this doctor whose name is Adriana. She is a gynecologist. But the way that she works is very similar to a midwife, the way that she treats her patients and the way that she respects the woman's body and everything. I think you're really gonna like her, but you should know that she can be a little bit tough. She's a hardcore feminist, and she truly believes in women's capacity to give birth, so she's not going to pamper you." Anyway, I went in. I met her. I loved her right away. She took me, which I was so appreciative, at the time, taking my case because I was already in my third trimester, and things continued to evolve smoothly. I mention this because since I got pregnant really easy, since everything was going smoothly, that's what I thought it was going to be in the case of my birth. I just thought that things were just going to develop like that.Julie: Oh my gosh. Can I just say that I thought the same with my first? I had the easiest pregnancy. I loved being pregnant, just like you, and then all of a sudden, wham-- preeclampsia, induction, C-section, and I was like, what happened? Yeah, anyway, sorry. I just had to add that in.Sophia: I think it happens to a lot of women.Julie: Yes.Sophia: So anyway, week 40 arrived, and there was no sign whatsoever of labor. And one mistake I made is that I told everyone about my due date. I'm an open book. So I told everyone just out of excitement. But then once the due date passed, people started reaching out, like, "Hey, how are you doing? Is baby here yet? Is everything all right?" That really threw me into a bad mental state. I started to get really scared and doubtful. I was just not mentally well at that time. I was just full of fear. I didn't accept it at the time. I was telling everyone that I was fine, but internally, yes, I was in that state. And now also thinking back, I think I prepared myself a lot physically. I have been practicing yoga for 10 years. I was doing a lot of prenatal yoga, etc., but I don't think I prepared myself mentally enough. Anyway, after week 41, Adriana, my doctor said, "I think we have to start discussing the possibility of an induction. Maybe by week 41.3 we can do a very gentle induction unless something else happens." I think two days after we spoke, I lost my mucus plug, so that was exciting, but then nothing was happening. Then we were almost at week 41.5, and she said, "I think at 41.5, I should induce you." But the night before the induction, I woke up in the middle of the night with a very intense feeling. I went into my living room. I sat on my birthing ball, and my water broke like a big gush like the movies. They tell you that's never gonna happen, but that happened to me. Contractions didn't start. But at that time, I didn't realize what this meant. I didn't know that this meant I was actually going to be on a clock after my waters broke. So I was actually very excited. I thought, okay, by tomorrow, I'm going to have my baby. This is amazing. I told my doctor. I told my doula, and they said, "Okay, well, no matter what, just come here to the birthing center."At the time, my doctor had a birth center, and the plan was always to labor there and then go to the hospital when I was closer to giving birth, because I just feel safer that way. And that was the plan with my insurance, etc. So I went the next morning to check me, and I was only at 3 centimeters. So she told me, "I'm going to recommend that you just go back home. Rest. Eat your favorite food. Try not to think about this too much, and when things escalate, just let me know." The problem then is that nothing escalated for a whole day when I went to sleep. And that night, I didn't sleep out of excitement mostly, but I was already feeling some contractions. I mean, I thought they were intense, but little did I know that they were not the most intense part. And then the second night, I also didn't sleep because now I did start getting contractions, a bit stronger ones. So the next morning, I went back into her practice. She checked me, and I was about a 5. And she said, "Things are progressing, but they're progressing quite slowly, so I'm going to give you a tiny dose of Pitocin just to make sure that things keep progressing." I stayed there in the birth center, and I was with my husband, and I was with my doula. And honestly, I remember that day very fondly. My husband and I danced. We used the shower. We used the Rebozo. We just the ball, the peanut ball and everything, but things were not progressing. It was 7:00 PM, and I was only at 7 centimeters, and we were already reaching 40+ hours. And as you know, once your water breaks, I mean, at least in Mexico, they recommend that you have your baby within 48 hours because otherwise you start risking infections. So I told my doctor, "I just want to go to the hospital. I need a change of scenery, and it's just gonna make me feel better." So we went to the hospital. The hospital did have this birth pool. I went into the water and just things stalled. I didn't progress after that. This whole time, they were checking my baby's heart rate, and it started raising a lot, like, scary a lot. It wouldn't regulate. Fear just took over my body, I think. She looked at me and she said, "Sophie, I think I'm going recommend that we go for a C-section." I looked at my doula, and my doula just nodded. I was so tired and so ready to meet my baby that I said, "Okay, yeah, let's go for a C-section." Once I decided that, it was the longest 40 minutes of my life because I thought, "Oh, well, I'm going to get under anesthesia now." But the anesthesiologist took an hour to get there, so I was in a lot of pain. Then we went into the OR, and to be fair, my gynecologist did everything possible to have a gentle Cesarean. We had dim lights. We had my playlist on. The whole focus was on me. Both my doula and my husband were with me. They were holding my hands. But the one thing that makes me sad about that is that I couldn't stay awake. I was so exhausted, so I was just asleep the whole time. I only woke up when I heard my son, Luca, crying. So exactly on week 42, he was born. I just remember someone in the OR yelling, "It's a huge boy." So he weighed 8 pounds, which is not massive, but for Mexican standards, he's really big. And Luca is a Taurus baby. He's determined, he's stubborn, and you cannot pressure him to do anything. He always does everything at his own pace, and this was just the first evidence of that. So anyway, luckily, he was okay. It was a rough recovery because I was just really not prepared for a C-section. It was challenging to get breastfeeding. He had difficulties to latch. It just took me a while to heal what had happened. But the one thing I do remember a lot is that when I was in my room, the doctor and my doula both came in and they said, "Sophie, we just want you to know that you and your baby are amazing. You did everything right. You just had so many things against you. But if you ever want to get pregnant again and go for natural birth, you can do it." That really stayed with me the whole time. So 18 months after Luca was born, my husband and I decided to get pregnant again. Again, we got pregnant the first try. I mention this not to brag about my fertility or anything like that. I know it's a sensitive topic, but for me, it was important because it was the first step to recover my confidence in my body and believe that I could really do this because once I started getting informed about VBAC, I realized that the healing I had to do was more internal. I really had to believe that I could do it. So I decided to stay with the same service providers, with the same doctor and the same doula, because they knew, they really knew my story. Well. And I called my doula, Neri, and I was like, "Hey, Neri, why are you doing this summer? Do you wanna have a baby with me?" And she was like, "Of course." Both my doctor and my doula recommended that I joined maybe like an online community of VBAC women. I had no idea what VBAC was. So then I found The VBAC Link website, the Facebook group. I took the VBAC class for parents. I found it so helpful. And for me, the fact that it was full of hardcore data, it was just so, so important. So in terms of physical prep, I tried to remain active, but I wasn't honestly doing as much yoga as before because I had a toddler. I was working full-time. I was running after my 2-year-old, and I really loved that my doula told me, "Don't get too stressed about working out. Just play with your kid. Play with your kid on the floor. That's going to be enough activity for you." I also really love that this time around, my gynecologist was not even telling me how much I weighed. I really loved that approach. It was just a really, really joyful pregnancy. Again, it was a healthy pregnancy. I did go to the chiropractor this time, which I didn't do last time. I also went to acupuncture sessions, and I did that the last time. I went with the same acupuncturist because I also thought it was good that she knew what happened before. I also took raspberry leaf tea and dates after week 36. So I did all of that physical prep. But what was different this time, I think it was my mental preparation. So as I said, I really, really tried to focus on healing internally, believing in my body, and believing in myself. So with my doula and also using the some of the guiding questions and stuff from the VBAC class, we started mapping out my fears. So she was like, "What are you afraid of?" And I said, "Honestly, I think what I'm most afraid of is that my waters break again before I start labor." So I remember asking in the VBAC Facebook group, "Hey, does anyone know anything about preventing PROM?" Someone suggested taking vitamin C. So I started doing it. And, this time, I felt so much more connected with my body, with my baby, with my intuition. At week 26, my baby was breech. And I remember asking again in the Facebook group, like, "What would you girls do?" And people told me, "You can do Spinning Babies. You still have enough time for baby to get in position, but it's always easier to move a baby when they're still small." So I did Spinning Babies, and my baby turned. So that was amazing. The other thing that is I consider being part of the mental prep is that I was also in a very different space, spiritually speaking. I am honestly not a religious person. I'm not the most spiritual person in the world, but this time I paid attention to a lot of signs. There was this one occasion that I was in my office, we were moving my office, we were moving to another place. And someone hired a shaman. Like a shaman, but it's an indigenous sort of magic priest because we all wanted to do some cleansing, like spiritual cleansing, before moving into the new space. She told me, "I don't do cleansing of pregnant women because it's not good for the baby, but I could give you a blessing". So I was like, "Yeah, of course." So she did this whole ritual. She told me, "You didn't have a natural birth before, did you?" I was like, "No, I had a C-section, but I'm trying for a VBAC." And she said, "I'm really certain that you're going to get it. I'm very sure that that day when you go into labor, your ancestors are going to be with you. I'm certain of it." And she also said, "There's something that characterizes you and has characterized you your whole life, which is having clarity and determination, Sophia, so this is not gonna be the exception." And she gave me this candle, and she told me, "Please, light this up when you go into active labor just to call your ancestors to be there with you." So I was like, "Okay, great." Then also on week 36-37, I had a nesting party. I invited a lot of friends over to help me prepare the house for baby. A friend of mine brought the tarot cards. She told me, "Do you want to pick a card?" And I was like, "Okay yeah, why not?" So I picked a card. That card was the card for strength. It was number eight of the major Arcana that depicts a woman taming a lion through the application of subtle force. That was so symbolic for me because it was strength. The picture really stayed in my head, and I had to think, obviously, about Woman of Strength. So there were all these symbols out there that just really put me in a very different mental state. So anyway, the day I went into labor, it was just one day before my due date. And this time, I didn't tell anyone about my due date. Only my mom and obviously, my husband knew. So one day before the due date, I started getting contractions. I had two weeks of prodromal labor, and I had that before in my first pregnancy, so I knew what it was. I mean, it can be so frustrating because you start getting prodromal labor, but it doesn't escalate, so you get sad. But I knew this time what it was, so I was trying not to pay too much attention to it and just continue with my life. But that day, I started getting real contractions. I knew that what I had to do was to go rest. I did do Miles Circuit. And anyway, I was pretty happy. But then 24 hours after, labor completely stopped. I was so scared of the story repeating itself, so fears started sneaking in. All the doubts. I started thinking, maybe natural labor is just not for me. I was crying. I was sad. I texted my doula and I said, "Neri, I'm just really bummed. I think this is not going to happen. I think I'm going to have a C-section again." She said, "Whoa, wait, I'm going to your house right now." She lives really close to my house. So in 15 minutes, she was here. This was at 8:00 in the morning of the due date, like week 40. And she said, "I think although baby is already engaged," because we knew it was already engaged, "I think it's not in the most optimal position, so I'm just gonna use the Rebozo." And we used the Rebozo. She told my husband and my mom how to use it. That was pretty magical. And then we also did a lot of Spinning Babies exercises. She said, "But aside from this, just try to relax. Everything's going to be okay." That day, I had my 40-week appointment with my doctor. I went and that was a game changer because she checked me, she checked my baby and she said, "Both of you are fine. Everything is okay. Please try to go home and relax. Do anything that makes you get oxytocin." She was like, "Why don't you go and eat or get a bath or eat cake in the bath?" And I was like, "Okay, that's a really specific suggestion, but why not?" So that made me feel much better. And she said, "I do recommend that you call the acupuncturist and tell her what's happening to see if she can give you an extra session." So I called my acupuncturist and she told me, "I'm an hour away from Mexico City because I'm teaching at a university, but I'm on my way there. I'm going to see you because I know you can do this." It was so sweet of her. She drove all the way here, she gave me a session and she told me, "I never do this, but I want to see you again. This was at noon." And she told me, "I want to see you again at night. Come here at 8:00 PM, and I'm going to give you an extra session that is specific to help baby get in a good position and to descend."So I was like, okay. So I went home. I actually came back and went to listen to Meagan's because I remember that she had a story of failure to progress. I listened to that episode. It was so helpful. So then I went back to the acupuncturist at 8:00 PM, and during the session of acupuncture, I felt a super strong contraction. Because what had been happening is that my contractions were intense, but they were really short. They were only 30 seconds. So when I was there, I knew that was a minute or longer. Anyway, after the session, I came back home, and they always recommended to walk after the acupuncture session. I went walking with my husband, and active labor started. It was clear, and it was so intense. It really started every 15 minutes, then every 10 minutes, then 7, then 5. So at 5:00, I texted my doctor and my doula, and they were like, "Okay. This is fantastic. Let's wait until you are 3-1-1." So every three minutes, one minute long for one hour. But I felt like things were going super fast. So I told Neri, my doula, "Can you please come see me?" Because she always told me the timing between contractions and the duration is important, but it's even more important that I see how you're acting. So she came. And in the meantime, my husband was packing the last things to go to the hospital. I also was pretty relaxed in the sense that my mom was taking care of my toddler, so I was really relaxed about that. My husband had become an expert in helping me put pressure in my hips during each contraction. He was packing and helping me, and he was just a rock star. He was offering me water, and he was my biggest cheerleader. Neri arrived, she saw me and she's like, "Okay, it's time to go to the hospital." So I was like, "Okay. So we went into the car." At this time, I was already in a lot of pain. Contractions were so long. They were 1:20, some of them, a minute and a half. It was super intense. I couldn't see anymore. I was just holding to the back seat. I was sitting in the back, just facing the other way. And here is where all the mental preparation really stepped in because I was remembering all of the affirmations that I was listening to. I was remembering all of the stories that I heard. I was also obsessed with watching birth videos. So all of that was going through my head. I love them so much. My dad, who was my favorite person in the world, passed away seven years ago. I could really feel he was there. It was just crazy. So anyway, I was doing all this mental work during each of the contractions while in the car. And this was at midnight, and we were very close to the hospital. The road was blocked, completely blocked by construction. And we were like, "Oh my god." I was in labor land. I was not paying attention to details, but I could hear in the back my husband and my doula getting a bit worried. My doula went out of the car, and I could hear her telling the police guys and the construction workers, "Hey, guys, we have a lady here that's in labor. If you don't let us through, she's going to have her baby here." And it was like, "Wow. Okay." So they opened the road just for us. We went through. We arrived to the hospital. And it's crazy at that time because you only do the few things that you can do in between contractions. I went into the room. This time, it was a different hospital. The room was so lovely. I remember it being a peach color. We had essential oils. We had my playlist. Again, my husband was my biggest cheerleader. Five minutes later, my doctor arrived, which made me feel so much better. And she's like, "I'm going to check you." I was already at an 8. So that was super exciting because it was already past what I had achieved last time, and then my water broke. My doctor said, "Sophie, I need you to look to me in the eyes and listen to me." So I looked at her and she said, "Sophie, this baby has to be born now, so I need you to start pushing." I was still not at 10 centimeters. I think I was 9 or something. But what they didn't tell me at the time is that my water already had meconium, and my baby's heart rate was starting to have some significant declines. But luckily, he was recovering. I was very thankful later on that they didn't tell me all of this because I was just so focused. So anyway, I tried different positions. First, I went and sat down on what we call a Mayan chair. I did all fours. So I think I pushed for an hour or an hour and a half. I just remember it being very magical in the sense just seeing my doctor, my doula, and my husband working together, cheering me, communicating even without words. Everything was just flowing. But still, baby was not being born, and pushing was so much harder than I thought. And also, I guess because I was not at 10 centimeters yet, I was not having the super urge to push, but they were guiding me to do so, and it was really, really great guidance. So finally I went into throne position, which, honestly, was the last position that I thought I was going to give birth in, but it felt all right. I was a second away to give up and to tell them, "You guys, I think I cannot do this." But then I remembered in all of the podcast stories that I listened to that usually when you're at that stage, it is because baby is about to be born. So then my doctor told me, "Sophie, baby is almost here. Do you want to touch their head?" We had decided this time not to know the sex until birth, so I had no idea if he was a boy or girl. I touched the head and that was so, so, so exciting. So I was like, okay. It just gave me another rush of energy. My doula said, "I really think two more pushes, and you're going to meet your baby." So I pushed once. The little head popped out and then it went back in. And then this whole time, they had been telling me to try not to push with my throat, but with my abdomen. But then they said, "This time when you push, push with all of your strength. If you feel like screaming, scream." So I pushed so hard. I screamed. My baby was born at 2:22 AM and baby started crying right away. I started yelling, "I did it. I did it. I can't believe it." And yeah, just for a few seconds, I had no idea if he was a boy or girl because I right away put him in my chest. And then my husband looked and he said, "Oh my god, it's a boy." And yeah, people asked, "So what's his name?" And we said, "His name is Rio." Rio in Spanish means river. And it also stands for the flow of life. I really, really think it really honored the way that he arrived into this world. And honestly, he's a pretty chill and easy going baby. So it was honestly the best day of my life. And later my doula, my doctor and I just, just went through the whole story. And again, we all said, I think my mental and spiritual state of mind was very different. This time was much more positive. I also really felt held by my drive. I had this chat of my all my best friends in this WhatsApp chat, and they were all rooting for me. And also, remember I told you there was this shaman, like this magician priest who told me that I was going to be able to do it? They gave us a candle. My mom lighted the candle when we went to the hospital, and the candle turned off by itself at 2:20 and Rio was born at 2:22. So that was pretty magical as well.Julie: Wow.Sophia: Yeah. And just the last thing I'll say about the story is that also, my gynecologist and my doula were also in a different state of mind. They had had a lot of VBAC experience which was great. And my doula always told me, "It doesn't matter how your baby is born. What matters is the experience, and that you really feel this connection with your baby. But in this case, Adriana told you to push this baby out, and you understood the assignment. You literally delivered your baby, and you had the baby when you were asked to do so, and that in itself is strength." So, yeah, that's my story.Julie: I absolutely love that. Just all of it. What a journey. I'm sorry. I'm trying to figure out where to start. I took some notes as you were talking, and I just think it's so incredible, all of the different things that you did to prepare. I really like what your doula told you during your pregnancy about your personality that you've always had clarity and determination. It was something like that. She said, "Clarity and determination is your personality." I love that because I think sometimes it's easier to advocate and fight and navigate having a VBAC when that clarity and determination is already something that comes naturally to us. It's not something that comes naturally to everybody. It's not good or bad or assigned into a category. It just is. And like me, I'm incredibly stubborn, and I will fight sometimes harder than I should to get the things that I want or desire. And I think that my stubbornness played a huge part in working towards that. Sometimes it's just easier to advocate for yourself when you already have those strong personality traits.Sophia: So yeah, for sure.Julie: But it's okay because you don't have to have those strong personality traits inherently in order to get your VBAC. There are lots of other things that you can do and lots of other things that are on your side as well. I wanted to touch on some of the things that you did to prepare. You took the VBAC class which is amazing. I love our VBAC class. It's really incredible. Lots of good information. I feel like obviously, it's pretty well-rounded and has lots of different characteristics and addresses all of the different learning styles and things like that. Things for the data junkie like me, and things for the people who are more holistic minded, things that are more mentally mental preparation focused, and things like that. You talked about Rebozo, Spinning Babies, and learning how to relax your mind and your body, the positioning of the baby, acupuncture. You hired a very, very good doula and provider who both had lots of VBAC experience. That was also something that was really important to me. I interviewed, I think, like 12 doulas when I was preparing for my first VBAC because I really wanted a doula who had a VBAC herself and supported lots of VBAC families. I don't think it's necessary that to have a doula who has had a VBAC herself in order to have a really solid VBAC doula. I don't think that's necessary, but that's something that was important for me.Sophia: Yeah, for sure. For me, too.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted midwives who had done lots of VBACs, and that was really important to me. Now it's not, like I said, necessary, but it's something that you can put in your toolkit to prepare. So I feel like a lot of times I hear people say something to the effect of, "I tried all the things, and I still didn't get a VBAC or I tried all the things and I didn't get a vaginal birth." And you know what? Some people try all of the things and don't get a delivery method that they want. And some people do literally nothing and have a perfect birth. I want to just tell you that birth is inherently unfair. Sophia: Yeah.Julie: Especially with the way our system is set up to handle pregnant women, and babies, and labor, and all of that stuff. It's inherently unfair. Sometimes you can do everything and have a completely unexpected birth experience, and sometimes you can and do absolutely nothing. My sweet sister-in-law is getting induced tomorrow. She knows absolutely nothing about labor and birth and delivery. She has no desire to know anything. She knows absolutely nothing. She's getting induced tomorrow, and I'm just really trying start hard to stay in my role as supportive sister-in-law when I see some choices that she's making that might influence her birth in a way that she doesn't want, but also, I don't think the outcome really matters to her, to be honest. I just don't think how the baby gets here matters. And that's okay. It is. That is okay. I guess my point of all of this is that you don't have to do all of the things. I feel like some people say, "I feel like I don't want to miss anything." What you need to do is learn about the things that are available to you, and then gravitate towards the ones that resonate well with you. Maybe you don't even care about Spinning Babies or what position your babies in, but you really want to focus on nutrition and getting your mind ready and finding a supportive provider. Cool. Do those things.Sophia: I really tried to enjoy this pregnancy because I only plan to have two kids, so I was like, maybe this is my last pregnancy. I just wanna make sure I enjoy it. I even did a photo shoot with my family and stuff. I just really enjoyed it. I know that for some women, it stresses them to think about all this prep, but for me, this time around, it just made me feel good just being informed and things like that. And honestly, to have a VBAC in a context like Mexico is not a minor achievement. The system is so set-up to just go into C-sections. So yeah, it was just a lot of challenges against me, but I was really lucky that I had really good service providers by my side that were supportive. My doula told me, "When we saw that you had meconium, and we saw that your baby's heart rate was descending, I'm sure any other doctor would have sent you to the OR, but Adriana, your doctor, really believed that you could do it, so that's why she decided to just give you a chance and you did it." That's just really important as well.Julie: Yeah no, I agree. If you want to do all the things, if doing all the things makes you happy and helps you feel prepared, then by all means, do all the things. I don't think you should do nothing. Let me clarify that. I think you should do something, at least one thing. But do the things that really resonate with you. I saw an Instagram post yesterday, I think. I'm trying to find it now. I think it was maybe on the account called Trusting Birth or something like that, but basically it said that there are studies that show-- nope, it is not trusting birth. Dang it. Gosh, dang it. I really want to find it. It was something about how there are studies that show that women when they're pregnant, make smart choices. Okay? They make smart choices. That doesn't mean they go deliver in the hospital and have an epidural. It's not a blanket statement, right? They make smart choices, which means they let their intuition guide them. No, not smart choices. Safe choices. Safe choices. And what is safe depends on the parent and the baby and the pregnancy. When you let women guide their own care and give them options, they make the safe choice. Now, the safe choice is different, like we just said, but the choice that is safest for them at the time. There is a study to back that up. And gosh dang it, I wish that I could find it. I'm literally on my phone right now thinking of all the different accounts it could be. I wonder if I liked it. Dang it. Anyway, if I can find it, I will have Paige, our podcast transcriber, link it in the show notes. I'll send it to her. But anyway, it was really interesting because that's what we've been advocating for all along. Trust in your intuition. Trust your gut. Trust your internal guide. You will make a safe choice. And if that's birthing at home, if it's birthing in the hospital or whatever it guides you to, if it's acupuncture, Spinning Babies, massage, getting a doula, not getting a doula, doing a VBAC class or what VBAC class to do. All of those things are safe choices that you can make for yourself. Now, dang it. I just want to hang out here until I can find it. Sophia: No worries.Can I add one more thing?Julie: Yes, please do while I keep looking.Sophia: Yeah. Talking about the safe choices, I think one of the things that made me feel very safe and allowed me to really focus on the contractions and the pushing is just knowing that my birth team was really on my side, like my doctor, my doula, and my husband. Most women who I know in Mexico have to spend a lot of time advocating for their obstetric rights, so not having to worry about that and just focus on my birth just made me feel really safe and just being able to know that they believed that I could do it.Julie: Awesome. Yes, I agree. I agree. Believing in yourself is a big thing. Granted, sometimes you'll believe in yourself. I think when I say believe in yourself and trust yourself and trust your intuition, it's not trust yourself that you can have a VBAC, although that is very important. That's important. But trust yourself that you will navigate the birth in a way that's safe and healthy for you and your baby, and that might be a repeat C-section. It might be a home birth, an unassisted birth, a hospital birth, but trust yourself that you will be able to guide yourself safely through the birth process whatever that looks like. And guess what? I found the post. I had liked it, and I just had to go into my activity in my Instagram history. It's from an Instagram account called Intentional.Birth. Intentional.Birth. And it says that there's a PhD biologist and doula, Sophie Messager who bridges the scientific and intuitive worlds of birth at the induction equation. So I think maybe that's the induction equation. Oh, I guess I don't know what the induction equation is. Anyway, so the post shows though, it says, "Research shows that women make safe choices. Because of the constant communication between the woman and the baby, women tend to know when something is wrong, and they also tend to know when something is right. Ignoring a woman's instincts is a very stupid thing to do." I like that. Women's instincts tend to know when something is right. I hear that all the time. This is what it sounds like.It sounds like, "Oh, my doctor recommended an anatomy scan at 32 weeks, but I just don't feel like that's necessary." Yeah, it's because you know something's right. Or, "I know measuring for a big baby isn't really evidence-based, but I just think I want to do it." That maybe feels like something is right, the big baby scan or whatever. Or maybe that something's wrong, right? "My doctor brought up inducing at 39 weeks. And normally I would say no, but it just feels like the right thing to do." That is your intuition. Or, "My doctor said maybe we should induce at 39 weeks, but I just don't think that that feels. That doesn't feel right to me." And so you wait. That's your intuition. Like those comments, trust that you know when your baby is safe. You know when something's wrong. You know when something's right even if you can't literally define it. Follow those feelings. They're important, and there is science to back it up.Sophia: That's how I felt when my baby was breech. I had this intuition that I'm going to be able to turn it around and, everything's going to go well, and it did. I love that there's this study backing up the importance of following your intuition.Julie: Yeah. So go check it out. It looks like, it links to the study at Sophie. That's your name? No, you're Sophia.Sophia: People call me Sophie.Julie: So yeah, there we go.Sophia: It's all connected.Julie: Yeah, there we go. It's all connected. Sophie Messager. That's M-E-S-S-A-G-E-R. That is the PhD biologist who is linked with the host. I'm going to follow this lady right now. Transformational Journey Guide for Sacred Shifts. Incredible. All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sophia, for sharing your story with us today. I loved talking with you. It's incredible for everyone birthing in Mexico and Mexico City especially, we know there are a lot of similarities between the United States, but there's also some differences, and different challenges to navigate. So we appreciate hearing your perspective and your experience, and I just really enjoyed having you here with me today.Sophia: Likewise. Thank you so, so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Molly joined us for Episode 84 talking about her unexpected breech Cesarean and first VBAC story. Today, she returns sharing her second VBAC story!Molly shares her powerful journey through loss, IVF, selecting her powerhouse birth team, preparing for different outcomes, post-dates, a multiple-day induction, a beautiful delivery (where her husband caught their sweet baby!), and navigating a placental lobe.Allison, one of our VBAC-certified doulas, joins Meagan as a co-host talking about her work as a virtual doula and the importance of how women are treated during their births. Coterie Diapers - Use code VBAC20 for 20% offHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. I hope you guys are having a fantastic day or evening and are excited for another episode of The VBAC Link. We have our friend, Molly, today, and she is from central Alabama, and then we also have a co-host today. She's one of our doulas. Her name is Allison. Hello, Allison.Allison: Hi, Meagan. Hi, Molly.Molly: Hi.Meagan: I was going to say, and hello, Molly. Molly: Hi.Meagan: Welcome to the show you guys, and thank you for joining us. Allison is actually one of our doulas. I don't know if you've noticed along the way here and there, we have one of our doulas on as a co-host. I think it's so fun to hear an educational topic from them and then, of course, share where they are at because I truly believe hiring a doula is so impactful. In fact, on Molly's form, that is one of the tips that she gave. Right, Molly? You're like, hire a doula.Molly: Yes, absolutely. It made all the difference this birth.Meagan: Yes. Doulas are incredible. So if you can, hire a doula. Before we get into Molly's story, Allison, I wanted to just turn the time over to you really quick and have you share a little bit more of where you are at. So for the listeners, maybe in your area, they can find you.Allison: Absolutely. Well, listeners, you have a treat because I serve everyone all over the world, globally. All of my work is online. My business name is The Cesarean Doula because I actually support women and birthing people emotionally after having emotionally difficult or traumatic Cesarean births. I do all of my work primarily over the Internet over Zoom. My focus is actually not on birth but on postpartum and on recovering from the feelings of grief, sadness, loss, overwhelm, and confusion that we often have after a Cesarean that's undesired or that goes in a difficult direction. I had one of those. That's what brings me to this work.Meagan: Yes. I love that you mentioned that you're like, this is what brings me here. I think in a lot of ways for doulas, that's what brings us to doing this work is our own experience and wanting to set a different pace and make change. So I love what you're doing. We're recording in 2024, everybody, but hopefully now, it's 2025, and you can go to our website because we're hoping to have a different option for searching doulas where you can actually go and search for online only because we do have a big chunk of doulas that do virtual support. So let's hope that that is the thing. If not, email me and say, "Meagan, get on it. Do this, because I want this option." Okay. Well, Ms. Molly, welcome to the show. You guys, Molly is a full-time mama, a part-time vet technician, and a soccer coach. That is a lot of things all at the same time. Yes. My husband is a soccer coach and just that alone is a lot. Like I said, she lives in Alabama with her husband and her two sons, her mom, and lots of dogs, cats and horses. She said that she also has two daughters in heaven. I'm sure you're maybe going to talk about that a little bit today, Molly.Molly: Yes, it is part of our story.Meagan: Yes. Okay. Well, thank you guys again for being here. In just one moment, we're going to dive in. All right, Ms. Molly. I don't know why I keep calling you that Ms. Molly, like you're a teacher.Molly: It's the song. It'll get you.Meagan: It comes together. Yeah, seriously. Okay, thank you so much for being here and yeah, I would love to turn the time over to you to share all of these stories.Molly: Thank you very much. So if you guys, if you listen to The VBAC Link, I was on a couple years ago talking about my first C-section and then the subsequent VBAC with my first daughter. Unfortunately, a couple years after that, my daughter passed away. And shortly after that, the desire to have another baby was laid on our hearts, and so we decided to try that.For various reasons, that meant we had to go through IVF. We were very lucky in that our IVF journey was short. That's a whole other podcast on its own, the IVF process. We ended up with three embryos, and then in December of '23, we did our first transfer. That one unfortunately failed. And so that's my second daughter in heaven. We did another test after that to see why the transfer had failed and determined that we needed another day of shots. Well, I say we-- me. I needed another day of shots to do the transfer. So in March, we did another transfer with the extra day of shots, and that one was successful. I had the teeniest bit of spotting the next day and just woke up knowing I was pregnant. It was pretty magical, actually. The at-home pregnancy test, seven days after that, was positive. Then the blood tests after that were positive. I did have a little bit of spotting after that which was a little scary. I talked to my doctor, and she upped the progesterone in oil shots I was taking. The amount of those seemed to clear out the spotting. And then we went in for our first ultrasound. I was diagnosed with a subchorionic hematoma, I think is what it's called, which is essentially like a bruise between the placenta and the uterine lining. That cleared up on its own. Fortunately, after that, I was a "normal" pregnancy. We weaned off the IVF shots. My last one was actually on Mother's Day which was a magical little sign. And that's when we dove right into labor prep. We did the Spinning Babies and bouncing on the birth ball. I walked every day. We went back through our birth plan. We tried to cover every single contingency from a repeat Cesarean which wasn't the goal, but we wanted to be prepared just in case. We prepared to labor at home as long as humanly possible. We even prepared to have a car baby. We had a bag with a bowl to catch the placenta and towels and puppy pads just in case we labored at home so long that we had a car baby.We hired a doula this time around. We had originally played around with the idea of doing a home birth, but in Alabama for VBACs, midwives still cannot attend VBACs at home in Alabama. We did find a midwife who was willing to do that for us but because of the restrictions, it wasn't covered by insurance, and that priced it out. So the compromise was that we would do a hospital birth, but I could have a doula this time. We interviewed doulas and found one who's actually certified by The VBAC Link. She's taken y'all's class and she was wonderful. Her name is Jolonda, and she was fantastic. And actually, in the end, my husband said, "I'm so glad we had a doula for me." Not necessarily for me, but for him. He needed her more than I did, and that was pretty cool. We also, this time, instead of going with an OB, went with midwives. They were associated with an OB practice, but we went just to the midwives. That was an interesting and much different experience. It was more like a conversation and less like an exam. We go in, and they would take my blood pressure, and then we would just talk. It was wonderful. She went through my birth plan point-by-point, and then signed it and scanned it into my chart. Anything that wasn't possible, she'd say, "Well, we can't do this because of the hospital we were at, but we can do this or we can try and do this and make that work." She was completely accepting of anything that I wanted to do differently. We decided not to do the erythromycin eye ointment. She said, "Yes." She was fine with that. We delayed, I think, the Vitamin K shot then and the delayed cord clamping. She was all 100% supportive of everything that we wanted to do. I did have to see the OB once just so they could sign off on me being a, quote, healthy pregnancy, and that was a quick in and out. There was a doctor visit, and they said, "Okay, we'll see you back in a couple of weeks." I said, "No, I'm going to go back across the street to midwives. I'll see them in a couple weeks." So that was all. My pregnancy really in itself was pretty normal. And then we got closer and closer to my due date. Now, I was due on November 18, and we got closer. I stopped working as a veterinary technician on the end of October right before Halloween. We had our baby shower. We were getting close to all the guess dates. Everybody had guessed when your baby's going to come. I would text them, "Nope, you missed it. It wasn't today." And so we slowly passed all those days, and then we passed my due date. We were doing everything-- the tea and bouncing on the birth ball and the dates and the pineapple, walking, The Miles Circuit, curb-walked. I knew the closer we got to 41 weeks and 42 weeks even, the more that there was going to be pressure for a repeat Cesarean. Now, to my midwife's credit, she never mentioned a repeat Cesarean. That was the very last thing that she ever talked to us about. We had talked about it in our birth plan, of course, but as we passed the due date, she didn't mention that as a course of action. As a joke, we asked our son, "When do you think Mama will have the baby? Now that we're past our due date, when do you think Mom will have the baby?" And he said, "I think she's going to wait until December." I said, "Buddy, please don't put that on me." So we'll let you know how that goes towards the end.Meagan: Yeah, I mean that would be what, two and a half more weeks? Three? Yeah, two and a half more weeks.Molly: Yeah, it was a long time. And I said, "Bud, please don't put that on me. That's a long more time." So then we made it through Thanksgiving. I consented to a cervical check at 39 weeks and there was no action the cervix, but you and I know that that can change in an instant, and it's not an indicator of anything. Meagan: Nope.Molly: At 40 weeks, I consented to another check and to a sweep of the cervical membranes. That made me feel crampy but really didn't do anything. We started talking about induction at that appointment. We talked about starting with the Foley bulb over breaking the waters or maybe Pitocin. We talked about those options and which ones I was most comfortable with. And so then after the 40-week appointment, they sent me in for a biophysical and non-stress test, and we passed those with flying colors. No problem. Baby was fine, I was fine. She just was very, very comfortable. Then at the 41-week appointment, we did another sweep and this time I was dilated to a really tight 1. But again, that didn't really do anything. We made our next appointment for 41 weeks and 3 days. And the ladies in the front office said, "We hope we don't see for that appointment." And I said, "I hope you don't either," but we did see them for that appointment. So at 41 weeks and 3 days, we talked about the induction again. They did another sweep just in the hope that maybe it would start things. It didn't. So we talked about and scheduled the induction. We'd agreed to start with the Foley and see how that went, and then maybe talk about breaking waters and maybe, maybe Pitocin being our last resort. We stopped for dinner. That was Wednesday evening. We stopped for dinner on the way in because I was like, "We're going to have a baby, and I need my strength. I've got to eat before we go in." So we stopped for dinner, and we got checked in. They got me strapped in with a wireless monitor, which was new this time and was so much better than the wired monitor because I could move. It was much better. And this is the start of what we like to jokingly call birthatory, because it's birth purgatory. I was stuck there in the room. I couldn't leave. My husband left just to get us food, but it just felt like we were there forever with nothing to do. And time moved strangely as well. I watched Friends at night to help me sleep, and I watched Parks and Rec during the day to keep me entertained. We did a lot of walking up and down the room as much as we could. And that Wednesday evening was just to start us monitoring. Jolanda came in, and she was in and out and checking with us that night. They also started me on the Group B strep meds. I think I forgot to mention I was positive this pregnancy. I had a weird reaction to whatever med they put me on first, like my scalp was on fire. It was a really bad reaction. Meagan: Interesting. Is that a common reaction?Molly: I believe they said it could happen, but it's not super common. I wish I could remember which medicine it was they gave me. But, I mean, it felt like my scalp was on fire. I was itching. It was horrible. So they gave me some Benadryl which fortunately helped me nap, so I got some rest. But we didn't want to do too much of that, so they switched me to a different medication. And again, I wish I could remember the name of it, but I can't. And that, I did not react to, so we stayed with that one for the rounds of the Group B Strep meds. So that was Wednesday night, and they were really just monitoring me. Thursday morning, the OB and the midwife on call came in to discuss my case. They discussed options. Pitocin. I consented to a check because we were going to start with the Foley, but I was at a 3 already. So that put the Foley out of commission because the Foley will only work up to 3. We talked about Pitocin versus artificial breaking of the membranes. The OB did do a little bit of pressuring, but we were all prepared for it. He said, "Well, at this point, this many post dates, you're probably definitely going to have meconium." And behind his back, my doula, my sweet doula rolled her eyes. It was what I needed, that support in that moment for the doctor to say, "Oh, well, there's definitely meconium." And my doula would be like, "No, there's probably not." So we asked for time to discuss between us and what to do. And Yolanda had these little informational cards with different affirmations. There was affirmation cards, but different, like facts about, induction from-- oh, I'm blanking.I can't remember. But they were little printed out laminated cards with different facts about different types of induction, and they were really helpful.It's Evidence Based Birth. That's what it was. It was all evidence-based and backed up by studies and stuff. So we discussed what we wanted to do, and we agreed to breaking the waters on Thursday morning. So the midwives came in and broke my waters, and there was no meconium. So that doctor can just go sit somewhere else. My waters are broken. I walked up and down the room, but nothing really happened. That night, there were some surges that we did time, but they petered out, and nothing really happened. So we woke up Friday morning, and that was December 1st. I, with despair in my voice, looked over at my husband and I said, "It's December. We've made it to December." I felt like a balloon that was beyond needing to pop and was just discouraged and tired. I was at the end of my rope, really, honestly. They came in, and I agreed to another check. This was the first check that they'd done since they broke my waters. And so if you're keeping count at home, my water's now been broken for about 26 hours. We happen to be watching an episode of Friends where the character, Rachel, is in labor, and she's having trouble dilating as well. And Ross makes a joke about, "I'm dilated 3." Well, they did the cervical check and checked, and I was still dilated 3. And Michael goes, "I'm dilated 3," and everybody laughed. It was a good break in the tension. After that, they left to go discuss my case. Michael went to go get me some hot water so I could make tea. But he came back in and he said, guess who's here and looking at your chart?" And I had no idea. He said, "It's Vicky," who's the midwife who helped deliver my first VBAC baby. She had retired, but come out of retirement and was only working on the weekends in the hospital. And I looked at him. I said, "We're having a baby today." Just something told me that with Ms. Vicky there with us, we were in good hands, and we were going to be okay. So she came in and talked to me about starting Pitocin. She also told me, because at this point, I was worried about a repeat Cesarean. And she told me, she said, "I'm no longer looking at you as a VBAC patient. You've had a successful vaginal birth. I'm treating you just like any other birth now." And it was such a healing statement for me. It wiped the worry about a repeat C-section out of my mind. It was just the perfect thing to say.Meagan: Yes. I don't want to interrupt you too much, but I love that you pointed that out, because most providers, they're actually looking at no matter if you've had a VBAC or not, you're always a VBAC. But what you just said to me really is gonna connect with so many others. It connected with me because we just want to be viewed as someone going in and having a baby. We don't want labels and these things that loom over our head even if we've had a VBAC before or if we haven't had a VBAC before. We just want to be looked at and treated as someone coming in and having a vaginal birth just like anybody else coming in and having a vaginal birth. So I love that you pointed that out, and I'm sure that that really did just connect and feel so good.Molly: It was a huge release of stress knowing that I didn't have to worry about the repeat C-section, the VBAC anymore, and I could just focus on having the baby and what I was doing and just doing what we needed to do that day to have the baby.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: So we did agree to the Pitocin she suggested. And we got very into the details, and we're almost a year out. I should have written them down sooner. I can't remember the numbers we started at, but she wanted to start at a certain amount over a certain time, and I disagreed. I said, "Let's start lower and slower." And she said, "That's fine. I'll do whatever you want to do." So we started really low and really slow, and I was starting to feel some things, but still not very much. It wasn't anything I had to stop to get through. It was really more just like a tightening. Jolanda came to hang out with us, brought us more food and water, and she brought a puzzle to help distract us. We were going crazy being stuck in that room. Vicky came in later that afternoon, and because still no progress was really being made. They didn't check me, but they could just tell from the contractions on the monitor. She talked about wanting to up the Pitocin a little bit faster and more frequently. I told her that I was worried about the difference in the Pitocin contractions versus natural contractions because I had heard and read so much that the Pitocin contractions are much more intense. And she told me that she'd given birth with and without Pitocin, and the only difference for her was that Pitocin births were faster. I agreed for her to bump it up a little bit, a little bit faster, that. After a little bit of time to talk about it, we agreed to do that. They did check me at that point, and I had worked my way up to a 5, and baby had moved from a -1 to, I believe, a +1. We dilated some, and baby had descended a little bit. At that point, the contractions did start to pick up, and I lost interest in the puzzle. We turned a movie on for me to watch. They were a little bit more intense, but still easy, and I could still talk through them and walk through them. Jolanda did an excellent job. She reminded me to go to the bathroom. And so I went to the bathroom, and when I walked out, I felt the baby drop. I don't know any other way to explain it, but I felt her drop in the birth canal. It was like she was sitting high, and then suddenly she dropped. I said that. I said, "Oh, I felt the baby drop." My sweet doula said, "You felt the baby drop?" I couldn't respond to her because then a contraction hit so hard that I could not talk through it. So, at that point, I told them, I said, "Please turn the movie off," because I couldn't handle the sound of movie. My husband turned on music in the background real low of our birth playlist. I needed to get down on all fours, so I got down on my knees, and I was bent over a birth ball swaying back and forth and moving forward and backwards, swaying my hips and vocalizing through them. Keep your mouth loose and low, moaning through them. At some point I didn't need the ball anymore and Jolanda brought in this inflatable thing. It was U-shaped and it was inflatable, but you could be in it and lean over it. And again, I wish I remember the name of it, but it wonderful because you could inflate and then deflate it to move it and get it out of there. But it was just perfectly shaped for me to be able to lean over it and even sit on it if I needed to, but I just was leaning over it. The contractions were getting more difficult, and she reminded me to relax my hands because my hands had gotten really tight. She was reminding me to breathe and relax my hands. She also suggested counter-pressure on my tailbone. I did not want it on my hips, but she tried it on my tailbone, and that felt incredible. Suddenly, the contractions were so much easier to bear, and they just felt more productive. It was fantastic. So she and my husband, Michael, took turns wearing their arms out, pushing my tailbone through the surges. At, that point, then the wireless monitor got weird because it had been on me for so long. The stickers, I guess, had just given out. So a poor nurse was on her knees underneath me holding the monitor on my belly, and there was either Jolanda or Michael behind me pushing on my tailbone through the contractions. And then I started grunting and felt pushy. Juolanda recognized my grunting because we talked about during my consult during my first VBAC. I get grunty when I'm pushing. She recognized the sound and she said, "Are you pushing?" But I didn't want to answer her because I didn't want to stop pushing because it felt so good to push. I hadn't been checked. So I didn't want them to know that I was pushing and check me and tell me that I couldn't push. And also, at this point, I was practically sitting back against the counter-pressure. The surge would hit, and I would sit back into whoever is doing counter-pressure and practically put my full weight back on my tailbone on their hand and the counter-pressure. Then, my knees got tired being on the floor. So I asked to move to the bed and they asked to check me. The midwife, Ms. Vicky, said, "I would love to check you right now." I said, "As long as I can be on my hands and knees, you can check me however you want."So I got up on my hands and knees on the bed, leaned over, and they checked me, and I was good to push. So at that point, we started actively pushing. Not just me pushing because it felt good, but pushing because we knew we were pushing a baby out. And pushing, it felt so good to push. I needed to push. It felt so good. I could feel her moving through the birth canal. I could feel her head coming down, and it was amazing. And just like with my first birth, it's frustrating to feel the baby move and then go back and then move forward and then go back, but you can tell you're making progress. I don't know how long I pushed for because I was way off in who knows where. Nobody else looked at the clock. Michael would have, but he was getting ready to catch. He had prepped to catch this baby. So I pushed her out into her papa's hands. He had prepped. He watched all kinds of videos meant for midwives, and he was so ready. He did such a great job. Baby Nora was there, and she was perfectly healthy. She was 7 pounds and 2 ounces, and 19 inches. For being 41 weeks and 5 days, she was still just perfectly cooked. I passed the placenta at some point after that. We did the golden hour, and we snuggled in. He cut the cord after it stopped pulsing. That was all very much a blur to me, just a golden, snuggly haze of love. So we passed the placenta, and it was declared complete. We looked at it, and we put in our little cooler to take home and freeze to plant her little birth tree. I did tear a little bit, so they stitched me up and we took some pictures. And then Ms. Vicky went home. She'd stayed 45 minutes late for us. She went home at that point, and I started nursing Nora. At that point, however, I was still in pain. So they said, "Would you like something for pain?" I asked for just Tylenol. I didn't want anything heavier than that, but I was still pushing. I was still feeling the urge to push, and it was getting worse. So the nurses applied some pressure to my uterus, external pressure. It hurt so bad I could barely stand it. Michael took the baby at that point, and Jolanda suggested me trying to avoid my bladder, and maybe that would help. But I couldn't. I couldn't get those muscles to work, so they put a catheter in. That didn't really help. The surges were still coming and I couldn't stop pushing. They put more pressure on my uterus, external pressure, and I passed a huge blood clot. It was like a softball-sized blood clot. That felt a little better, but I was still pushing and I could not stop the pushing. So they gave me some stronger pain meds and talked to the OB who was on call and all agreed that I needed to go the OR and see if something had been left. So we agreed to that and went under sedation into the OR, and they removed a golf ball-sized portion of the placenta. Meagan: Whoa.Molly: Yeah. It was confusing because they had declared my placenta complete and after talking about it, and they looked at all the pieces, and it turns out that I had a lobular lobe.Meagan: I was going to say you probably had a lobe.Molly: Yes. And so after I mentioned "Oh well, I had some spotting early in pregnancy," they figured that the spotting had contributed to that, and that's why the placenta looked complete and there was a lobe and the hematomas all contributed to the early bleeding and the lobe in the placenta. I came out of the OR fine. I got two bags of blood but felt fine. When I woke up, I got to hold Nora in the OR. Well, not in the OR, but in the recovery and nurse her again. And everything was really fine after that. Jolanda checked on us a couple of hours after that. She brought us food. We had talked about what I wanted to eat post-birth. I wanted to eat a cheeseburger with bacon from a specific place near the hospital with fries. She brought it all, and we ate it at like 11:00 PM. It was wonderful. And Michael, like I said before, said later that having a doula this time around was 100% worth it mostly for him because she was suggesting things that he wouldn't have known to offer like the counter-pressure and, "Hey, maybe she needs to pee," and things like that. It saved him and helped him know what to do while I was off in labor land. For that, our sweet doula was so worth it. And after that, recovery was great, and we were fine.Meagan: That is awesome. So still had a little bit of a hiccup there in the end, but overall a really great experience.Molly: It was awesome. And I said before, with the birth plan, we tried to plan for all contingencies, but the one thing we did not plan for was three days trying to be induced naturally. Meagan: Yeah.Molly: I mean, they say time isn't linear, and I have never felt that more true than we were stuck in that room for three days. It was very weird just not being able to get out. It's not something I would do again, the induction part, but we made it through thanks to great support from midwives and doula and my wonderful husband. I would do the birth part, and maybe not the hemorrhaging at the end, but the birth part I would do again.Meagan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's just less ideal. I don't know. Did they ever talk to you? Because I know that IVF parents do have a slightly increased chance of hemorrhaging. Did they ever relate it to IVF, or was it mainly just, "Hey, you had a subchorionic hematoma earlier, then you have this lobe." Maybe it was just that they.Molly: The doctors didn't. No, we were very aware that she was an IVF baby, and we had done a lot of research before that IVF babies have a very "sticky" placenta.Meagan: Yeah.Molly: That was one of the factors why we didn't do a home birth was because if the placenta sticks, and then you're at home, it can be a rush to the hospital. But the doctors at the hospital didn't mention the IVF possibility as the reason I hemorrhaged. Maybe it played a part. I don't know. They seemed to put it on the sub-chorionic hematoma. But it could have been both. I don't know.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. All of the little factors could have been. The best thing is that it seemed pretty minor and a quick fix. A quick fix. I just wanted to remind everybody, so I'm pretty sure this is your episode. It's Episode 84. So if you want to go hear the breech Cesarean and the first VBAC, definitely go back and listen to those on Episode 84. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and I'm so glad that it was so great and that your husband got to catch a baby. That's like my favorite, you guys.Just to let you know, that's happening more and more. At least it has been here in Utah as we're attending births. Sometimes, all you've got to do is ask. So if you have a partner who is interested in that, I think asking is not harmful. Just ask. It can seem intimidating, but it's not too bad. It's not too bad. They really help these partners catch these babies. Allison, I would love to have you share your two cents and your educational topic on healing after Cesarean. We're doing these topics instead of reviews sometimes when we have guests. I love what you do because just like Molly and myself, we've been there having an unexpected-- well, maybe with the breech it was kind of planned. I'm trying to remember back in your story.Molly: So with the breech, with the Cesarean, we had planned a C-section, but then he broke my water early, so it was not necessarily an emergency Cesarean, but we had to go in before we were "scheduled" to for the C-section.It was planned, but unexpected at the time. The wrong timing. Yes. Okay. Well, tell us more, Allison.Allison: Yeah, and I want to say thank you so much, Molly, for sharing your story. I actually want to point out a few things that I think are really important here. I work with so many people who have had a birth that feels difficult or traumatic. And oftentimes, there are women who come to me who say, "I don't understand why I feel upset about my birth even though I have this baby who's healthy and alive, if we're lucky enough to have a living baby or a healthy baby or both." And one of the things I talk a lot about is that oftentimes it's not the events themselves in the birth that create a difficult or traumatic birth, but it's how we feel, right? And so, what makes a birth feel good or bad? Like, I listen to you talk about this experience where you had some challenges leading up to it, right? Especially preconception, and then during conception. I felt your joy. I felt your connectedness, and I felt your power throughout your story even as you talked about the really difficult part at the end with the placenta needing to be retrieved. I want to just point out that that's what I heard, and you've got to tell me if this feels right for you, Molly. But what I heard was many moments where you talked about feeling connected. You talked about your sweet doula. You talked about that surprise midwife coming in to support you. You felt connected. You felt seen like that moment where you said, "Oh, well, the monitor wasn't working, but then the nurse got underneath me," so instead of actually you accommodating the hospital's protocol and policy, I love this idea. I'm imagining a nurse laying on her back under you while you're on all fours. You're empowered. That's truly centering you. Right? You're in control in a lot of these moments. You said you wanted the Pitocin lower. The doctor or the midwife honored that. It sounds like you were informed. You used some examples of the cards from Evidence Based Birth, and a lot of the information you engaged with prior to birthing. One of the things I talk about with my clients is maybe you even feel sexy during birth. You didn't mention that at all, but that might have been. There might have been moments, maybe not. Are there any other emotions that come up for you? Did I leave anything out hat you're like, oh, I really felt another positive emotion?Molly: No, you've nailed it 100%. I felt very supported this birth from the midwife listening to me and, like you said, honoring my requests and my husband being there and the doula. I felt very supported. So even the end and the hemorrhaging which should have been scary, I don't look back on as scary. I don't want to repeat it, but I wasn't scared in that moment because I felt taken care of and supported.Meagan: Mhmm. Allison: Right. That is so textbook. I love this story because that's a really, really scary thing. And if you hadn't had that support, that attunement, that communication and that safety, it could have felt different. It could have made your story feel like there was this turning point into a dive. I love that your advice was getting a doula, because in your story, I really feel how your relationship and respect for her are a big component of your support and empowerment. So I just want to end by saying that birth is really about those emotions, not the modality or even the environment where we birth. If we can create those experiences for ourselves as much as possible, we don't always have the ability to do that. Lots of things have to come together, but if we can focus on, how do I make myself feel empowered, connected, sexy, seen, in control, informed during my birth, however I birth, then the likelihood of having a positive outcome emotionally is so much higher. And when we have a better emotional experience, we're more likely to be able to have a supported breastfeeding experience and also go into motherhood feeling centered, feeling capable of taking on this new role or another baby when we already have littles at home. So thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel really touched, and I can imagine that others are too.Molly: Thank you.Meagan: I do love that you pointed that out, Allison. The way we feel during our labor, the way we're treated, the way we're communicated to, it really impacts that next step going into that motherhood era. I think back on your story. I remove your doula from your story, and I remove your supportive provider. That birth very much could have unfolded very differently especially because it was a longer induction. Right? And so when you put that powerhouse team with that true love and support back into the story, it's like, well, I don't understand why it wouldn't unfold that way anyway.But really, if you look back without that, it's questionable sometimes. And so we talk about it, you guys. I think I will probably talk about it until I die. I mean, truly, I will probably not even be in this work when I'm 80 years old, but I will still be educating people on hiring a supportive team and provider because it really does impact. I had an interview the other day with a first-time mom and she was telling me who her provider was, and I very much remember this provider as a resident. And she was fine, but not great, right? She wasn't my favorite. I very much knew, oh, in the future I would not suggest her as a provider. And so as I was talking, and I didn't want to project my opinion on her, and I was talking to her, she said that her and her husband had actually been feeling a lot of pressure and that when she goes into her visit that she normally has a voice, but when she's there, her voice is muted. She feels like she can't say these questions and can't communicate. I think right there is that big red flag that if you cannot communicate with your provider in a prenatal appointment, then that is a big sign that you will not be able to communicate with your provider efficiently during labor, and they're not going to respect you. I love that your midwife came out of retirement and started working on the weekends because she probably loves this so much and that you got her. It worked out so, so well. But guys, again, find a good, supportive provider. If you're feeling like my interview did the other day, don't hesitate. Move, change, find that support because you want to be like Molly where you're in the situation and you feel that love and empowerment. And even though there was something that ,went awry and not according to plan, Molly felt that support. And so like Allison said, that could have been a very traumatic point in your labor where it wasn't ideal. You wouldn't do it again. You wouldn't choose it. You wouldn't suggest it. But even though it happened, and I don't want to downplay it like oh, least everyone's happy and healthy. I don't want to do that. But it happened, and because you had that support, your overall view is different. So great tips, Allison. Beautiful story, Molly. Again, go back and listen to Episode 84 for the rest of her stories. And once again, thank you for being with us.Molly: Thank you so much for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands