Wrestling With God

Welcome friend of the pod, Eli Irvin! Eli and Gabriel have known each other for many years, and when I (Megan) met him at the Wild Goose Festival last year, I knew we were going to be friends! Eli is an Episcopalian and has devoted his life to loving people well, particularly those in the LGBTQ+ community. We talked about the good and bad of the church, what it really means to love people well, and how love and Christianity are meant to be inefficient. This conversation felt like sitting on a front porch with a couple of southern friends and a glass of lemonade (or bourbon ;) ). It was such a breath of fresh air, and I know you're going to love Eli and be thinking about his words for quite a while. Follow Eli on Tiktok and Instagram @irvinwithaneye for theology, Star Trek, and other nerdy fun!

Do you feel like The Church uses language and manipulation tactics to infantilize people? Have you ever met Christians who seemed immature or unsure of themselves? In this episode, Gabriel and Megan talk about the ways they think the Church has kept Christians in a state of perpetual immaturity, the motivations for that manipulation, and how it plays out differently for men and women. They also talk about their own struggles with having to individuate and mature as adults and the discomforts they've experienced as a result. Sources: We both recommend the movie, Turning Red. More scandals with Hillsong.

In this episode, we interviewed trauma expert, Elizabeth Power, founder of the Trauma Informed Academy. Elizabeth talked to us about what trauma is, how we can become more resilient, and how we can learn to heal ourselves. She believes we can look to ancient texts for wisdom about how community can heal us and make us able to cope with trauma, and that community is something we are sorely lacking in our society. Elizabeth is special to both of us and we could have talked to her all day. We think you'll love hearing from her and find her work to be especially needed in our world. You can find Elizabeth's books and learn more about her work at elizabethpower.com

Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about suicide, drug overdose, and mental illness. Please take care while listening, or skip the episode if this content may be troubling for you. We are grateful that mental health is a topic that has entered the realm of public conversation. With the normalization of conversations around how we care for ourselves in that way, we have also become aware of the ways the church has failed people when it comes to treating and even just talking about mental illness, suicide, addiction, eating disorders, etc. We believe the church must do better in this regard in order to make a positive impact in the world and stop the use of shaming tactics that injure people further. Mental health should be treated as health care, and the Church should stop treating it like a theater for spiritual warfare. Topics discussed: drug addiction overdose suicide depression/anxiety eating disorders therapy and medication exorcism faith healing/praying in tongues infertility

We're back! After our break, we spent some time catching up and talking about how important it is to take breaks from the difficult work of Deconstruction. We then discussed the critics of deconstruction, what they are tweeting, and how they have no authority in our lives. We also talked about how we have found peace and contentment that didn't seem possible early in our journeys. We hope this episode is a source of peace for you.

In this episode, Megan poses the question to Gabriel, "why do you choose Christianity?". After leaving his family's faith behind and wrestling with his doubts, Gabriel found a church that provided the perfect space to walk through deconstructing and reconstructing a new faith. He talks about what drew him to the Episcopal church, and what it was like having friends and mentors that provided love and acceptance. They also talk about the difference between unconditional love and unconditional acceptance, the changing demographics of the Church and what that means for the future, and why people are trapped in abusive relationships with god. It's a very open and meaningful conversation and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

What does it mean to say Jesus is king? Does it mean that he rules with strength and the sword? Does our salvation come from the wealthy trappings of kingship and the power of a heavenly empire? Or do we find salvation in the humanity of Christ? In the Christ that sweat and bled and had to feed and clean his mortal body? Is Jesus a warrior god, descending to earth on a white horse with a sword in his hand? Or is he Christ the Human, who collected dirt between his toes and wept salty tears? Is he a strong god, or a spent god?  These are the questions we wrestle with in this episode, in which Gabriel reads a sermon he recently wrote. If sermons aren't generally your thing, don't worry; this is a sermon that invites discussion and a new perspective of Christ, one that brings salvation through his own humanity and relation to us. We are always asking questions about who Christ is, always searching for better visions of god than what we have been given throughout our lives. This sermon asks us to envision salvation in the form of sweat and blood and love rather than strength and empire and fear. God came to earth to be spent, not to establish himself as king. 

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel talk about Deconstruction as a movement and why Millennials are hard-wired for it. They also talk about the ways in which Christians have co-opted the language of deconstruction to sell books and gain followers, and how to spot those tricks without giving them any money or influence. Is Deconstruction a movement? Does it need to have more or less structure? Or are we just projecting newness onto the current church exodus because of visibility due to the internet and social media? We want to hear from you! DM us on Instagram @wrestlingwithgodpod or email us at wrestlingwithgodpod@gmail.com For help finding an affirming church, visit www.gaychurch.org.

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel share their experiences attending the Wild Goose Festival, as well as what it has meant to them in their personal and spiritual lives over the years. Links and References: The video parody about making Christian music was wrongly attributed to Trey Kennedy. It was actually made by John Crist, who I will not link on this platform. I also encourage listeners not to support him by watching his videos as he has been accused by several people of sexual misconduct, for which he has yet to issue a true apology, and instead broke his months-long silence on social media with problematic videos joking about cancel culture. You can read about it here. Nadia Bolz Weber speaks at Rachel Held Evans' funeral. Wild Geese, by Mary Oliver Chasing the Goose, by Susan Rebecca White, The Bitter Southerner

This episode features special guest and friend of the pod, Julie Ellis Washington! Julie is a nurse and a mother of five who lives in South Georgia. In this touching interview, she tells the story of how she and her husband adopted three of their children, what it's like having and advocating for a transgender child in a small southern town, and how that experience started the process of her faith deconstruction. We believe that everyone deserves to be both accepted and celebrated in their church, and it can be heartbreaking to find out your church isn't fully affirming. This was Julie's experience when her son came out as transgender, and she has been wrestling with her faith, knowing that she believes in an all-loving god, but doesn't want to settle for a church experience that doesn't fully embrace her son for all he is. We are so thankful there are people like Julie who choose love every day, and who strive to make their corner of the world a more accepting place. Resources from Julie: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians, by Austin Hartke Unclobber: Rethinking Our Misuse of the Bible on Homosexuality, by Colby Martin Shameless: A Sexual Reformation, by Nadia Bolz-Weber Queerology Podcast, hosted by Matthias Roberts Almost Heretical Podcast, hosted by Nate and Tim

The Church often teaches people to divorce themselves from their physical bodies and focus on their souls. The emphasis on heaven and god and the afterlife often means that followers view their physical bodies and lives on earth as fleeting, temporary, and even a temptation from a focus on the all-important soul. In this episode, Megan and Gabriel discuss the ways that this teaching is harmful, and also talk about their experiences and what they've done to heal themselves and become more embodied people. This episode is very personal, and we hope you enjoy it and find comfort in it; however, please be aware that there is frank talk of eating disorders, disordered eating, and abusive language of sexuality. If any of these topics may be disturbing to you, please take care while listening. Come see us at the Wild Goose Festival! Gabriel and Megan will be attending and facilitating a meeting in the Episcopal tent at the Goose and possibly recording a live episode! We'd love to see you there! Resources from the episode: Megan's favorite nail polish Intuitive Eating book Intuitive Eating podcast

In this first episode of season two of Wrestling with God, Megan and Gabriel catch everyone up on what they have been up to this summer-- including things they have been observing and thinking through like critical race theory, original sin, morals, and lots more! Mentioned in this episode is First Stop Huntsville and @iblamebill. Megan recommends napping, landscaping, and socializing. Gabriel recommends Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer and Rachel Held Evans's new book Wholehearted Faith, which you can preorder here.

What should the role of Christians be in response to the addiction and housing crises currently ravaging our country? In this episode, Gabriel and Megan speak with Kevin Nye, a writer and graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary who works as an advocate for people experiencing homelessness in Los Angeles. As a Christian, Kevin works to bring the Church into a more grace-filled perspective on these issues and teaches online seminars on drug addiction, overdose, and practical solutions including training people to use naloxone to save lives. In this episode, they discuss the need for a more grace-filled approach to drug addiction treatment and homelessness, why current solutions aren't effective, and why Christians should care about these issues.  Kevin can be found on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and you can sign up for his newsletter on his website, kevinmnye.com. He recommends the movie, The Mitchells vs. The Machines on Netflix and is currently reading Praying with our Feet, by Lindsey Krinks. He also talked about the abomination that is Dominion Dating, a new dating app designed exclusively for Evangelicals who believe the only way to take back the country is to fulfill the divine mandate to "be fruitful and multiply", but only if you're a complementarian determined to uphold the Patriarchy. (I wish I were kidding).  Gabriel has been watching the show, Pose, on Netflix.  Megan has been watching Rutherford Falls on Peacock and Home Economics on ABC. She has also joined a group that is forming Unchurch, an online community for those in the deconstruction/reconstruction/progressive Christian space. The group will be launching soon on Discord, so stay posted for updates!  References Our episode with Lindsey Krinks

On this episode, special guest Jim Cornfoot joins Gabriel to tell his story of deconstruction and construction. Jim is a queer Memphian musician, cyclist, and heavy-things connoisseur, and his experiences of trauma both inside and outside of the Church are something many folks can relate to today. Listen to Jim talk about his journey of pain and trauma toward healing and wholeness! In this episode, @jcorn104 recommends What It Is Like to Go to War by Karl Marlantes and the Wild Goose Festival.

In this episode, Gabriel and Megan continue discussing the Prosperity Gospel, specifically about the ways is permeates our culture in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Our belief that health, wealth, and happiness are formulaic and can be achieved by simply making all the right decisions is pervasive in our society. So join us for a discussion on televangelists, faith healers, and Dave Ramsay. Gabriel is reading, Did God Kill Jesus?, by Tony Jones. He also recommends, The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James Cone. Megan is reading, Jesus and John Wayne, by Kristen Kobes Du Mez. References Dave Ramsey's stimulus comments Dave Ramsey's toxic and cult-like workplace Dave Ramsey's Franklin, TN home for sale...for $15.45 million. Benny Hinn Pat Robertson 700 Club Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) Rachel Hollis "Unrelatable" Rant

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel sit down with Nashville activist, street chaplain and author to chat about her new book Praying with Our Feet. In the book, Lindsey recounts stories of her work with folks in Nashville experiencing homelessness, and particularly through her nonprofit Open Table Nashville. You can find Lindsey's book anywhere books are sold, and look for a chance to win a free copy of her book on our Instagram! Lindsey recommends We Do This 'Til We Free Us by Mariame Kaba and Unorthodox. Megan recommends getting outside to enjoy this beautiful spring weather! Gabriel recommends getting your COVID vaccine. You can find information on where and how to get the vaccine with Vaccine Finder. Don't forget to checkout our website!

When we talk about Prosperity Gospel, we usually conjure up images of pastors on TV begging for money for their ministry, or preachers teaching on the virtue of giving with a happy heart as they pass the plate around. While it has negative connotations for many, there are plenty of people who whole-heartedly subscribe to it as a legitimate theology. But what exactly is it? Where did it start? And why is it so reviled and yet so successful in the United States? This episode is an introduction to Prosperity Gospel that will lead us into more conversations in future episodes. Megan gives a deep dive into the movements that led to this theology, as well as the cultural oven that baked all the ingredients into a perfect loaf that the wealthy could hold over hungry heads. In many ways, Prosperity Gospel is just the water we're all swimming in here in the US, but we're endeavoring to see what's in the metaphorical water so we can think critically about what's working and what's not. Some references: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/opinions/outlook/worst-ideas/prosperity-gospel.html https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/topics/p/prosperity-gospel/

It seems the Evangelical church is waking up to the Deconstruction movement and their response has been what it always is: to control the narrative. In this episode, Megan talks about the importance of defining deconstruction and reconstruction, why Christian Apologists are problematic and how to spot them, and how to protect yourself from Christians who want to control deconstruction. The church does not get to define deconstruction, and they certainly don't get to tell us how to go about it. There are no rules to deconstruction that say you must end up a Christian again, and anyone who tells you otherwise has no authority anyway. Let this episode validate your journey and help you spot potential sources of spiritual manipulation and control. Sources mentioned in this episode for deconstructing Christians: Phil Drysdale, podcast (The Phil Drysdale Show), Instagram, Deconstructionist Network, and a treasure trove of resources on his website. Straight White American Jesus, hosted by Bradley Onishi and Daniel Miller. Micah J. Murray, podcast (Existential Happy Hour), Instagram, Twitter. Deconversion Therapy Podcast, hosted by Bonnie and Karen.

Ever wonder why Evangelical Christians seem to be so susceptible to conspiracy theories? So do we. In this episode, Megan and Gabriel discuss why conspiracy theories are so attractive to certain groups and how dangerous they are to the rest of us. Listen to hear their theories on why Evangelicals enjoy being the center of their own conspiracy theory. Also find out why Gabriel was once afraid of cracks in dirt and why Megan wasn't allowed to have a Save The Rainforest poster growing up. For more information on conspiracy theories, check out Abbie Richards and Marc-Andre Argentino on Twitter. Gabriel mentions this song and its lyrics as particularly meaningful. Megan talks about recovering from COVID-19 and getting her cat back from his extended outdoor adventure. You Ain't Gonna Believe This Shit: A New York Times article about the life of Jack Van Impe, End Times preacher and predictor extraordinaire. Is Dave Ramsey running a financial empire or a cult? Also, he decided we all needed these words in the middle of a devastating pandemic. What a guy!

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel chat with guest, Keven Lewis. Megan and Keven met in anthropology and history classes during their undergraduate years at Middle Tennessee State Univeristy and they kept in touch over social media (mostly with Megan admiring his reading lists!). Keven studies religious history and anthropology and is currently working on his Masters thesis, which is an ethnography of a local religious community in Middle Tennessee, in which he focuses on American Evangelicalism through the lens of worship, eschatology, and testimony as important aspects of Evangelical culture. He is also in the process of converting to Judaism, which has given him a rich perspective on Christianity and Jesus, including the problematic ways that Christians misunderstand Judaism, Jesus, and Biblical Law. Megan is reading Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free, by Linda Kay Klein. Gabriel and Keven are both reading Short Stories by Jesus, by Amy-Jill Levine Keven is also reading The Origins of American Religious Nationalism, by Sam Haselby.

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel talk about the role Evangelicalism has played in the current state of affairs of American culture and government. Everything from the riots to systemic racism is discussed and processed. Mentioned in this episode: Richard Rohr, @RichardRohrOFM The Center for Action and Contemplation, @CACRadicalGrace Dr. Miguel De La Torre Megan recommends Embracing Hopelessness by @DrDeLaTorre and Your Honor, the miniseries. Gabriel recommends How to Be an Antiracist and Stamped from the Beginning by @ibramxk and Praying with Our Feet by @lindseykrinks.

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel discuss the far-reaching effects of fundamentalism Christianity on our culture: everything from how a pandemic is handled to capitalism to the prosperity gospel. Mentioned in this episode: Dr. Andy Thompson, @arhthompson Deconversion Therapy Podcast, @The_DeConverted Jimmy Cornfoot, @jcorn104 Megan recommends The Lazy Genius Way by @thelazygenius. Gabriel recommends Jerome Ellis, @ellisjerome, Jerome's episode on This American Life, and The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone. **Gabriel incorrectly identified the podcast show where Jerome Ellis was featured as “This American Experience.”

In this episode, Gabriel talks with his husband Casey about what it's been like navigating the deconstruction process with friends and family. Gabriel and Casey share what they have had to do to maintain healthy relationships with people they love as their changing approaches to God inevitably changed the dynamics of those relationships. Casey talks about some of his own spiritual practices like yoga and tarot and how he reconciled his widening spiritual approach with Christianity. This episode topic was recommended by listener @finally_kristen! Casey recommends You Are Your Own by @iamjamieleefinch. Casey recommends Wild Mercy: Living the Fierce and Tender Wisdom of the Women Mystics by @mirabaistarr. You can learn more about Casey (and Gabriel's!) work on their website.

In this episode, Megan talks with her husband, Jeff about what it has been like to deconstruct faith as a married couple. Jeff talks about his extensive experience with volunteering in church, and how dealing with unemployment made him think differently about prayer. They both discuss what it looks like to respect your partner's journey as they go through the process of deconstruction. We hope you enjoy this special episode of Wrestling With God! Jeff recommends Born A Crime, by Trevor Noah. He is also reading Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy, by Jeff Vandermeer. Megan forgot to mention it because she was talking about Christmas, but she's been reading The Lazy Genius Way, by Kendra Adachi and highly recommends it!

Megan and Gabriel discuss their deconstruction journeys in more detail, the strengths and weaknesses of Christianity, the loneliness of losing your faith, and why finding God is a lifelong process. Gabriel recommends Grace at the Garbage Dump by Jesse Zink (@jazink on Twitter). Megan recommends Parable of the Sower by Octavia E. Butler. For an enlightening conversation on early Christians and Christmas, check out Rob Bell with Alexander Shaia on the Robcast. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram @wrestlingwithgodpod! You can email us at wrestlingwithgodpod@gmail.com. We wish you all a safe and peaceful Thanksgiving.

Megan and Gabriel process their thoughts and feelings after Election Day as we all waited to see who would win the presidency. This episode was recorded at 4:00 Eastern Time on Thursday, 11/5/2020; things will have changed since the recording. 

On this episode, we talk about the two things you're not supposed to talk about- religion and politics!

Megan and Gabriel discuss the beliefs they were taught about the End Times, the rapture, and how the current pandemic has triggered old thoughts. and fears.

In this episode, we talk all things purity culture- its influences on our upbringings and even how it continues to inform us as adults.

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel recount the story of Jacob wrestling with God and, in light of that story, what wrestling means for them in their own individual journeys.

Welcome to wrestling with God! In this first episode, Megan and Gabriel begin their stories and talk about what wrestling with God has looked like for each of them.

A preview of what is to come on Wrestling with God.