Podcasts about episcopalian

It's time for another Listener Q&A! In this episode, we answer your wide-ranging questions that include topics like: when to cross yourself during a service, what Episcopal traditions we'd pass down to our theoretical children, our experience with purity culture, and how to ~officially~ become an Episcopalian. We love recording these episodes, so thanks for submitting your nosiest inquiries! Can't get enough of the Average Episcopalian? Visit our webiste: theaverageepiscopalian.com Follow us on Instagram: @average.episcopalian Sign up for our monthly Substack newsletter: averageepiscopalian.substack.com More questions? Send us an email: average.episcopalian@gmail.com

The Nicene Creed is *the* definitive statement of faith for what Christianity is for most Christians, around the world, throughout most of time. Love it or hate it, the Creed binds us together. And since our entire project at And Also With You is reclaiming an ancient Christian faith for modern Christian life, we thought it time to dive deep into this Creed -- to show how this 1700 year old prayer holds up and how we are following it still today. But the fact that we HAVE a creed (other religions don't really do this) and that is came from these series of big ol' committee meetings is actually a really fascinating thing to unpack, for for our first of twelve episodes exploring the Creed, we're delighted to welcome Dr. Hannah Black, Ph.D. to orient us to the Creed as a historical and spiritual document. More about Dr. Hannah Black, Ph.D.: Dr. Hannah Black earned her PhD in Divinity from the University of Cambridge in 2023, with her doctoral dissertation entitled “Gregory of Nyssa's Soteriological Imaginary as a Resource for Nonviolent Soteriology.” Dr. Black's doctoral research will be published as a book in the near future, which will focus on how Gregory of Nyssa's use of biblical imagery can be used to build upon feminist and womanist critiques of violent atonement theology. Dr. Black is also contracted with St. Vladimir's Press to produce a Popular Patristics Series translation of seven short works by Gregory of Nyssa surrounding the theme of the life of virtue.At the University of Cambridge, Dr. Black was the Decani Scholar of Clare College Chapel, where she served as a lay leader in the Church of England. She was also editor of the divinity graduate journal Noesis and founder Women in Divinity. She currently serves on the leadership teams of Theologia and the Feminist Theology Network.Dr. Black has taught at the University of Cambridge, Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, and Yale Divinity School. Her teaching has included the subjects of early Christianity, theology and literature, systematic theology, Greek, and Anglican and Episcopalian history. While at Yale, Dr. Black hosted The Leader's Way podcast for two years, convening conversations about theology, spirituality, and leadership with church leaders and scholars.Beyond teaching and writing, Dr. Black enjoys hiking with her husband Griffin and their dog Nellie and learning new crafts, like knitting. Dr. Hannah Black article for Earth & Altar “Scripture scrapbook”Athanasius' On the Incarnation (Popular Patrictics Series, 44b)https://www.christianbook.com/on-the-incarnation-saint-athanasis/9780881414271/pd/414276?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=academic-0-20%7C414276&p=1179710&utm_source=google&p=1237749&dv=c&cb_src=google&cb_typ=shopping&cb_cmp=21328467087&cb_adg=164336762792&cb_kyw=&utm_medium=shopping&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21328467087&gbraid=0AAAAAD_dTHbGl-v2rkxnnGf4RH6r_V_dy&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnovFBhDnARIsAO4V7mDCyrTi3xWqIAhN5Y8vNVHAvydf9SVCSKz83-WiZNx3zEuQCYWh02MaArrAEALw_wcBBiblical Time Machine episode with Sara Parvis https://www.biblicaltimemachine.com/listen-to-episodes/tnrzrx5darp7hnj-lz388-cw5dc-5zr8e-c98pn-7cd82-3dw4w-pk39b-krhb4-dmpzj-9chdk-ff3f4-rrjnw-wx4zs-2pkb4-6yyxm-saw97-ytnrg-y5w99-brayd-fhhce-f7tc6-7grnw-bmbcl-njl3f-79gbr+++Like what you hear? We are an entirely crowd-sourced, you-funded project. SUPPORT US ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/AndAlsoWithYouPodcastThere's all kinds of perks including un-aired live episodes, Zoom retreats, and mailbag episodes for our Patreons!+++Our Website: https://andalsowithyoupod.comOur Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andalsowithyoupodcast/++++MERCH: https://www.bonfire.com/store/and-also-with-you-the-podcast/++++More about Father Lizzie:BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/762683/god-didnt-make-us-to-hate-us-by-rev-lizzie-mcmanus-dail/RevLizzie.comhttps://www.instagram.com/rev.lizzie/https://www.tiktok.com/@rev.lizzieJubilee Episcopal Church in Austin, TX - JubileeATX.org ++++More about Mother Laura:https://www.instagram.com/laura.peaches/https://www.tiktok.com/@mother_peachesSt. Paul's Episcopal Church in Pittsburgh, PA++++Theme music:"On Our Own Again" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue).New episodes drop Mondays at 7am EST/6am CST! 

The Rev. Robert Fruehwirth preaches on the twentieth Sunday after Pentecost.

The Rev. Sarah Phelps preaches on the nineteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

In episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore Jesus's parable of the wheat and tares (weeds) from Matthew 13. This thought-provoking discussion examines Christ's startling teaching that good and evil will always coexist within the visible church until the end of time. The brothers carefully unpack the theological implications of Jesus's command not to separate wheat from weeds prematurely, challenging our natural tendency to judge others while offering wisdom about God's sovereign plan for final judgment. This episode wrestles with difficult questions about church purity, assurance of salvation, and how believers should approach the reality of false professors within Christ's church—providing biblical guidance for faithfully enduring in a mixed communion. Key Takeaways The Coexistence of True and False Believers: Jesus teaches that the visible church will always contain a mixture of genuine believers and false professors until the final judgment. The Danger of Premature Judgment: Christ explicitly warns against attempting to completely purify the church before the harvest (end of age) because doing so would damage the wheat (true believers). Proper Biblical Interpretation: Unlike some parables, Jesus provides a detailed allegorical explanation of this parable—the sower is Christ, the field is the world, the good seed represents believers, and the weeds are the sons of the evil one. The Challenge of Discernment: One of the most difficult theological pills to swallow is that it's often impossible to perfectly distinguish between true and false believers. Final Judgment as God's Prerogative: The separation of wheat from weeds is reserved for the angels at the end of the age, not for current church leaders or members. The Reality of False Assurance: Some professing Christians may have false assurance of salvation while genuinely believing they are saved. The Importance of Theological Integrity: Public theologians and pastors have a moral responsibility to be transparent about their theological convictions and changes in their beliefs. Deeper Explanations The Difficult Reality of a Mixed Church Jesus's teaching in the parable of the wheat and weeds directly challenges our natural desire for a perfectly pure church. By instructing the servants not to pull up the weeds lest they damage the wheat, Christ is establishing an important ecclesiological principle that will hold true until His return. This means that no matter how rigorously we apply church discipline or how carefully we examine profession of faith, we will never achieve a perfectly pure communion this side of eternity. The visible church—which can be understood as those who profess faith and are baptized—will always include both true and false believers. This reality should cultivate humility in how we approach church membership and discipline. Jesus isn't suggesting that all attempts at church purity are wrong (as other Scripture passages clearly call for church discipline), but rather that perfect purification is impossible and attempts at achieving it will inevitably damage true believers. This teaching directly refutes movements throughout church history (like Donatism) that have sought absolute purity in the visible church. The Problem of Discernment and Assurance One of the most challenging aspects of this parable is Christ's implicit teaching that true and false professors can appear nearly identical, especially in their early development. Like tares growing alongside wheat, false believers can profess orthodox doctrine, participate in church life, and exhibit what appears to be spiritual fruit. This creates profound implications for how we understand assurance of salvation. As Tony notes, while "assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian," there's also the sobering reality of false assurance. Some may sincerely believe they are saved when they are not, raising difficult questions about self-examination and spiritual discernment. This doesn't mean believers should live in perpetual doubt, but rather that we should approach assurance with both confidence in God's promises and healthy self-examination. True assurance must be grounded in the finished work of Christ rather than merely in our experiences or behaviors, while false assurance often lacks this proper foundation. The brothers wisely note that final judgment belongs to God alone, who perfectly knows who belongs to Him. Memorable Quotes "The visible church is set before us as a mixed body. Maybe everybody else's churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion." - Jesse Schwamb "I think that's what I find shocking. It is like a massive statement of reality that is at equal points totally sensible. And other times we would think, 'well, surely not in the church Lord, like of all the places, like aren't we talking about a kind of purity of your people?' ...and what I think he's striking at, which I do find a little bit wild, is that Jesus is essentially saying, at least to my ear, anything we try to do, even the purest preaching of the gospel, is not gonna prevent this in every age of the church." - Jesse Schwamb "I'm affirming that assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Guess what? It looks like you and I are taking another trip back to the farm on this episode. Tony Arsenal: Yes. For a couple episodes. Jesse Schwamb: For a couple episodes. Yeah. [00:01:01] Exploring Jesus' Parables in Matthew 13 Jesse Schwamb: Because what, Jesus will not stop leading us there. We're looking at his teachings, specifically the parables, and we're gonna be looking in Matthew chapter 13, where it seems like, is it possible that Jesus, once again has something very shocking for us to hear? That is for all the ages. 'cause it seems like he might actually be saying, Tony, that good and evil will always be found together in the professing church until the end of the world. Like in other words, that the visible church is set before a mixed body. I mean. Maybe everybody else chose churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion. Could that possibly be what Jesus is saying to us? I don't know what we're gonna find out. Tony Arsenal: We are. We are gonna find out. Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be definitive. And if now that makes sense. If you don't even know why we're looking at Jesus' teachings, you could do us a favor even before you go any further. And that is just head on over in your favor, interwebs browser to or reform brotherhood.com, and you can find out all of the other episodes, all 464 that are living out there. There's all kinds of good stuff, at least we think so, or at least entertaining stuff for you to listen to. And when you're done with all of that in a year or two, then we'll pick it up right back here where we're about to go with some affirmations or some denials. [00:02:39] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: So Tony, before we figure out what Jesus has for us in Matthew 13, in the parable of the weeds, or the tears, or the tears in the weed, what gets all of that? Are you affirming with, are you denying against, Tony Arsenal: I am denying. First of all, I'm denying whatever this thing is that's going on with my throat. Sorry for the rest of the episode, everyone. Um, I'm denying something that I, I think it is. How do I want to phrase this? Um, maybe I'll call it theological integrity, and maybe that's too strong of a word, but maybe not. So the listener who's been with us for a little while will remember that a while back. Um, you know, we've, we've talked about Matthew Barrett and he was a Baptist, uh, who's heavily involved in sort of the theology, proper controversies. He wrote Simply Trinity, which is just a fantastic book. He was a teacher or a professor at Midwestern, um, Baptist Theological Seminary. And he recently, um, uh, converted is not the right word. I hate calling it a conversion when you go from one faithful Bible tradition to another. But he recently, um, changed his perspective and joined the Anglican Church. And at the time I kind of, you know, I kind of talked about it as like, it's a little bit disappointing, like the reasons he cited. [00:03:57] Theological Integrity and Public Disclosure Tony Arsenal: Where I'm bringing this into a matter of sort of theological integrity. And it's not, it's not just Matthew Barrett. Um, there's other elements of things going on that I'll, I'll point to too is it's often the case when someone who is in some form of professional theological work or professional vocational ministry, that as they start to change perspectives, um, there comes to be like an inflection point where they should notify whoever it is that they are accountable to in that job or vocation, uh, uh, and then do the right thing and step down. Right? And so with Matthew Barrett, um. He continued to teach systematic theology at a Baptist Theological Seminary, which has a faith statement which he was obligated to affirm and hold in good faith. He continued to teach there for quite some time, if, you know, when he, when he published the timeline and he's the one that put all the timelines out there. So it's not like people had to go digging for this. Um, he continued to teach under contract and under that, that faith statement, um, for quite some time after his positions changed. I remember in college, um, sim very similar situation, one of my professors, um, and I went to a Baptist college. It was a General Baptist college. Um, one of my professors became Roman Catholic and for quite some time he continued to teach without telling anyone that he had converted to Roman Catholicism. Um. And I think that there's a, there's a, a level of integrity that public theologians need to have. Um, and it, it really makes it difficult when something like this happens to be able to say that this is not a moral failing or some sort of failure. Um, you know, James White has jumped on the bandwagon very quickly to say, of course we told you that this was the way it was gonna lead. That if you affirm the great tradition, you know, he was very quick to say like, this is the road to Rome. And I think in his mind, um, Canterbury is just sort of one, one stop on that trip. Um, it becomes very hard after the fact to not have this color and tarnish all of your work before. 'cause it starts to be questions like, well, when, when did you start to hold these views? Were you writing, were you, were you publicizing Baptist theology when you no longer believed it to be the truth? Were you teaching theology students that this is what the Bible teaches when you no longer thought that to be true? Um. Were you secretly attending Anglican services and even teaching and, and helping deliver the service when you were, you know, still outwardly affirming a Baptist faith statement. And the reason I, I'll point out one other thing, 'cause I don't want this to be entirely about Matthew Barrett, but there's a big, uh, hub glue going on in the PCA right now. Um, a guy named Michael Foster, who some of our audience will probably be familiar with, um, he and I have had our desktops in the past, but I think he and I have come to a little bit of a, of a uneasy truce on certain things. He, uh, went to work compiling a, a list and there's some problems with the data, like it's, it's not clean data, so take it for what it's worth. But he compiled a list of. Every publicly available church website in the PCA. So something like 1800 websites or something like that. Huge numbers. And he went and looked at all of the staff and leadership directories, and he cataloged all the churches that had some sort of office or some sort of position that appeared to have a, a woman leading in a way that the Bible restricts. And that more importantly, and starting to say it this way, but more importantly, that the PCA itself restricts. So we're not talking about him going to random church websites and making assessments of their polity. We're talking about a, a denomination that has stated standards for who can bear office and it's not women. Um. So he compiled this and people in the PCA are coming out of the woodwork to basically defend the practice of having shepherdess and deacons. There was one that he cataloged where, um, the website actually said, uh, that was the pastor's wife and the title was Pastor of Women. Um, and then as soon as it became public that this was the case, they very quickly went in and changed the title to Shepherd of Women or Shepherdess of Women or something like that. So it's, it's really the same phenomena, not commenting, you know, I think we've been clear where we stand on the ordination of female officers and things like that, but not that all that withstanding, um, when you are going to be a part of a body that has a stated perspective on something and then just decide not to follow it, the right thing to do the, the upstanding morally. Uh, in full of integrity move would be to simply go to another denomination where your views align more closely. PCA churches, it's not super easy, but it's not impossible to leave the PCA as an entire congregation and then go somewhere like the EPC, which is the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which still on the spectrum of things is still relatively conservative, but is in general is in favor of, uh, female officers, elders, and diegans. So I, I think, you know, and you see this with podcasters, there was the big, there was a big fu and Les became a Presbyterian, and then when Tanner became a Presbyterian on the pub, I think it is, um, incumbent on people who do any form of public theology and that that would include me and Jesse when our views change. There comes a point where we need to disclose that, be honest about it, um, and not try to pretend that we continue to hold a view that we don't be just because it's convenient or because it might be super inconvenient to make a change. I don't even want to pretend to imagine the pressures, uh, that someone like Matthew Barrett would face. I mean, you're talking about losing your entire livelihood. I, I understand that from an intellectual perspective, how difficult that must be, but in some ways, like that kind of comes with the territory. Same thing with a pastor. You have a Baptist pastor or a Presbyterian pastor. It can go both ways, I think. I'm more familiar with Baptist becoming Presbyterians. I don't, I don't see as many going the other direction. But you have a, a Baptist pastor who comes to pay to Baptist convictions and then continues to minister in their church for, I've, I've seen cases where they continue to minister for years, um, because they don't, they don't have the ability to now just go get a job in a Presbyterian context because there's all sorts of, um, training and certification and ordination process that needs to happen. Um, so they just continue ministering where they are, even though they no longer believe the church's state of, you know, state of faith statement. So that's a lot to say. Like, let your yes be yes and your no be no, and when we really all boil it down. So I think that's enough of that. It, it just sort of got in my craw this week and I couldn't really stop thinking about it. 'cause it's been very frustrating. And now there are stories coming out of. Doctoral students that, um, that Barrett was teaching who have now also become Anglican. Um, so, you know, there starts to be questions of like, was he actively pros? I mean, this is like Jacob Arminius did this stuff and, and like the reform tradition would look down on it, where he was in secret in like sort of small group private settings. He was teaching convictions very different than the uni. I'm talking about Arminius now. Not necessarily Barrett. He was teaching convictions very different than the, the stated theology of the university he taught for, and then in public he was sort of towing the line. You have to ask the question and it is just a question. There's been no confirmation that I'm aware of, but you have to ask the question if that was what was going on with Barrett, was he teaching Baptist theology publicly and then meeting with, with PhD students privately and, and sort of convincing them of Anglican theology. I don't know. I'm not speculating on that, but I think it, the situation definitely right, brings that question to mind. It forces us to ask it. Um, and had he. Been transparent about his theological shifts sooner than that may not be a, a question we have to ask. Um, the situation may not be all that different, but we wouldn't have to ask the question. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, disclosure is important in lots of places in life and we shouldn't think that theological dis disclosure, especially like you're saying among our teachers, among our pastors, it is a critical thing. It's helpful for people to know when perspectives have changed, especially when they're looking to their leaders who are exhibiting trust and care over their discipleship or their education to express that difference. If there's been a mark, change it. It's worth it. Disclose, I'm guessing you don't have to over disclose, but that we're talking about a critical, we're talking about like subversive anglicanism, allegedly. Yeah. Then. It would be more than helpful to know that that is now shaping not just perspective, but of course like major doctrine, major understanding. Yeah. And then of course by necessary conviction and extension, everything that's being promulgated or proclamation in the public sphere from that person is likely now been permeated by that. And we'd expect so. Right. If convictions change, and especially like you're talking about, we're just talking about moving from, especially among like Bible believing traditions, just raise the hand and say loved ones, uh, this is my firm conviction now. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think if someone walks up to you and says, do you think that we should baptize babies? And you're like, yeah, I think so. Then you probably shouldn't be teaching at a Baptist seminary anymore. Like, seems like a reasonable standard. And that seems to be what happened, at least for some period of time. Um, you know, and, and it, that's not to say like, I think, I think there are instances where the church, a given church or um, or a university or seminary or, or whatever the situation might be, can be gracious and recognize like, yeah, people's perspectives change and maybe we can find a way for you to continue to finish out the semester or, you know, we can bridge you for a little while until you can find a new, a new job. Um, you know, we'll, we'll only have you teach certain courses or we'll have a guest lecturer come in when you have to cover this subject that is at variance and like, we'll make sure we're all clear about it, but it doesn't seem like any of that happened. And that's, um, that's no bueno. So anyway, Jesse. What are you affirming and or denying Tonight? [00:13:43] Music Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm just gonna go with something brief. I suppose this is an affirmation of me. I'm saying that like somewhat tongue in cheek, but maybe it's, wait, I'll rephrase. It's because this will be more humble. I'm affirming getting it right, even more than I thought. So I'm just gonna come back to the well and dip it into something that I mentioned on the last episode. So the keen listener, the up-to-date listener might remember. And if you're not up to date, uh, just let this be fresh for you. It'll, and I, it's gonna be correct because now I have posts, you know, I'm on the other side of it. I've clear hindsight. I am affirming with the album Keep It Quiet by Gray Haven, which I affirmed last week, but it came out on the same day that the episode released. And since you and I don't really like record in real time and release it like exactly as it's happening, I only did that with some, a little bit of reservation because I only heard they only released three songs in the album. And I thought I was overwhelmed that they were, they were so good that I was ready to jump in and loved ones. Oh, it, it turns out. I was so correct and it was, it's even better than I thought. So go check it out. It's Grey, GRE, YH, and they are, this is the warning, just because I have to give it out there and then I'll balance it with something else for something for everybody here today. So, gr Haven is music that's post hardcore and metal core. You're getting two cores for the price of one, if that is your jam. It has strong maleic sensibilities. It's very emotional, it's very experimental. But this new album, which is called, um, again, keep It Quiet, is like just a work of arts. It real like the guitar work is intricate haunting, lovely, and it's bold, like very intentional in its structure and very el loose in its construction. It's got hook driven melodies and it's got both heart and soft. It really is truly a work of art. So if you're trying to, to put it in your minds, like what other bands are like this? I would compare them to bands like, every Time I Die, Norma Jean, let Live Hail the Sun. If you just heard those as combinations of words that don't mean anything to you, that's also okay. No worries. But if you're looking for something different, if you're looking for something that's maybe gonna challenge your ear a little bit, but is like orchestral and has all of these metal core post hardcore, melodic, textured movements, there's no wasted notes in this album. It's really tremendous. If that's not your thing. I get, that's not everybody's thing. Here's something else I think would be equally challenging to the ear in a different way. And that is, I'm going back to one other album to balance things out here, and that's an album that was released in 2019 by Mark Barlow, who I think is like just. So underrated. For some reason, like people have slept on Mike Barlow. I have no idea why he put together an album with Isla Vista Worship called Soul Hymns, and it's like a distinct soul and r and b album of praise with like these really lovely like falsetto, harmonies. It's got these minimalistic instrumentation, warm keys, groove oriented percussion, like again, like these false soul driven melodies. It's contemplative. It's got a groove to it. This is also equally a beautiful album for a totally different reason. So I think I've given two very book-ended, very different affirmations, but I think there's something for everybody. So my challenge to your loved ones is you gotta pick one or the other. Actually, you could do both, but either go to Gray Havens, keep it quiet, or go to Mike Bellow's Soul hymns. I do not think you will be disappointed. There's something for everybody on this one. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, it was funny because as you were saying the names of those bands, I literally was thinking like Jesse could be speaking Swahili and I wouldn't know the difference. And then you, you, you know me well, yeah. Uh, I haven't listened to Gray Haven. Uh, I probably will give it a couple minutes 'cause that's how it usually goes with songs that meet that description. Uh, I can always tell that the music that Jesse recommends is good from a technical perspective, but I never really, I never really vibe with it. So that's okay. But I mean, lots of people who listen to our show do so check that out. If, if you ever. Want a good recommendation for music. Jesse is the pers so much so that he can recommend amazing music before it's even available and be a hundred percent correct, apparently. That's right. So Jesse Schwamb: affirm with me everybody, because turns out I was right. Uh, it was easy to be correct when of course I had all of that fair sightedness by being able to listen to those. Yeah, those couple of songs, it, this is a kind of album. Both of these, both of these albums. When I heard them, I reacted audibly out loud. There are parts of both of 'em where I actually said, oh wow. Or yeah, like there's just good stuff in there. And the older you get, if you're a music fan, even if you're not, if you don't listen to a lot of music, you know when that hook gets you. You know when that turn of melody or phrase really like hits you just, right. Everybody has that. Where the beat drops in a way. You're just like, yes, gimme, you make a face like you get into it. I definitely had that experience with both of these albums and because. I've listened to a lot of music because I love listening to music. It's increasingly rare where I get surprised where, you know, like sometimes stuff is just like popular music is popular for a reason and it's good because it's popular and it follows generally some kind of like well established roots. But with these albums, it's always so nice when somebody does something that is totally unexpected. And in these, I heard things that I did not expect at all. And it's so good to be surprised in a way that's like, why have I never heard that before? That is amazing. And both of these bands did it for me, so I know I'm like really hyping them up, but they're worth it. They're, they're totally worth it. Good music is always worth it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I think that is a good recommendation. I will check those out because, you know, you're a good brother. I usually do, and I trust your judgment even though it, you'll like the second one. Yes. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: You'll like the second one. Second one is like, just filled with praise and worship. And like, if, if you're trying to think, like say, here's how I'd couch the proper atmosphere for Mark Barlow's soul hymns you're having, you know, it's, it's a cold and chilly. A tal evening, the wind is blowing outside. You can hear the crisp leaves moving around on the pavement and the sun has gone down. The kids are in bed, the dinner dishes are piled up in the sink. But you think to yourselves, not tonight. I don't think so, and you just want that toneage to put on. You want that music as you dim the lights and you sit there to just hang out with each other and take a breath. You don't just want some kind of nice r and b moving music. You don't want just relaxing vibes. You want worshipful spirit filled vibes that propel your conversation and your intimacy, not just into the marital realm, but into worship and harmony with the triune God. If you're looking for that album, because that situation is before you, then sol hymns is the music you're looking for. Tony Arsenal: See, I'm gonna get the, I'm gonna get the recommendations backwards and I'm gonna sit down with my wife with a nice like evening cup of decaf tea and I'm gonna turn the music on. Yes, it's gonna be like, yes. That was me screaming into the microphone. That was not good for my voice. Well, the good news is it's gonna, it's gonna wake the kids up. That's, I'm gonna sleep on the couch. That's, it's gonna be bad. That's, Jesse Schwamb: honestly, that's also a good evening. It's just a different kind of evening. It's true. So it's just keep it separated again, uh, by way of your denial slash affirmation. Tony disclosure, I'm just giving you proper disclosure. Everybody know your music KYM, so that way when you have the setting that you want, you can match it with the music that you need. So it's true. Speaking of things that are always worth it. [00:21:30] Parable of the Weeds Jesse Schwamb: I think the Bible's gotta be one of those things. Tony Arsenal: It's true. Jesse Schwamb: And this is like the loosest of all segues because it's like the Sunday school segue into any topic that involves the scriptures. We're gonna be in Matthew 13, and how about we do this? So this is one of these parables and in my lovely ESV translation of the scriptures, the, we're just gonna go with the heading, which says the parable of the weeds. You may have something different and I wanna speak to that just briefly, but how do we do this, Tony? I'll hit us up with the parable and then it just so happens that this is one of the parables in the scripture that comes with an interpretation from our savior. It's true. How about you hit us up with the interpretation, which is in the same chapter if you're tracking with us, it's just a couple verses way. Does that sound good? Tony Arsenal: Let's do it. Jesse Schwamb: Okay. Here is the parable of the weeds. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sewed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sewed weeds among the weeds and went away. So when the plants came up and bork rain, then the weeds also appeared, and the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds? He said to them, an enemy has done this. So the servant said to him, then, do you want us to go and gather them? Then he said, no. Lest in gathering the weeds, you root up the wheat along with them, but let them grow together until the harvest and at harvest time, I will tell the reapers, gather the weeds first, and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn. Tony Arsenal: Alright, so then jumping down. To verse 36. We're still in Matthew 13, he says, then he left the crowds and went into the house and his disciples came to him saying, explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field. He answered, the one who sows the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angel. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age, the son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom, all that, all causes of sin in all lawbreakers and throw them into the fiery furnace. It is that in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. He who has ears let him hear. Jesse Schwamb: So let me start with just like a little bit of language here, which I've always loved in this passage because where else in like the contemporary context, do you get the word tear? Yeah. Aside if you're like using a scale, and that's a totally different definition. I like this. I like the word tear. It force, it forces to understand that what's common to our ear, why that's being used, it often is translated weed. Here's just like my, my little like linguistic addition to the front end of our discussion and is the reason I like it is because here does have a specific definition. If like you were to look this up in almost any dictionary, what you're gonna find is it's like a particular type of weed. It's actually like an injurious weed that is indistinguishable in its infant form from the outgrowing of green. So I like that because of course that is exactly why. Then there's all this explanation of why then to not touch anything in the beginning because one, it causes damage to it looks like everybody else. I just thought I'd put that out there as we begin our discussion. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah. You know, I, um, I am a homeowner and I don't own the land that I'm on, but I'm responsible for the land that I'm on. And we have this really gnarly weed problem. There's this, uh, sort of floor growing, uh, carpeting weed called, uh, I think it's called like a carpeting knob, head weed or something like that. Some really descriptive thing. And I went out there the other day and there's really nothing you can do about this other than to rip it up. But I went out there the other day to start to pull some of it up and it totally wrecks the yard. Like it totally pulls up the grass, it destroys the sod. And when you're done, this is why it's kind of nice that I don't have, I'm not responsible for the land as I'm not gonna have to pay to resod the land. But when you're done pulling up this weed, you have to resod the whole place. You have to regrow all the grass because it, first, it takes over for the grass, and then when you rip it up, it rips the roots of the grass up as well. And so this parable, um, on one level is immediately obvious, like what the problem is, right? The situation is such. That the good, uh, the good sower, right? He's a good sower. He knows what he's doing. He understands that simply ripping up the weeds. Even if you could distinguish them right, there's this element that like at an early stage, they would be very difficult, if not impossible to distinguish from, uh, from wheat. Even if you could distinguish them, you still wouldn't be able to pull up the weeds and not do damage to the grain. And so we, we have this sort of like, um, conflict if you wanna follow like literary standards, right? We have this conflict and as we come to sort of the climax of this, of this plot is when all of a sudden we see that, that the problem needs a resolution and there is a resolution, but it's not necessarily what we would think it would be. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's what I find shocking. It is like a massive statement of reality that is that like equal points or equal times totally sensible. And other times we would think, well why surely not in the church Lord, like of all the places, like aren't we talking about a kind of purity of your people, the very people that you're assembling together, the chief of which is Christ and the apostles being the building stones and Christ of course being the cornerstone. And I, I think that's what I find and I wonder the people hearing this, if they thought like, well, surely Lord, that not be the case like you are bringing in and ushering in this new kingdom. Isn't this new kingdom gonna be one of absolute purity? And, and what I think he's striking at, which I do find a little bit wild, is that Jesus essentially saying, at least to my ear, anything we try to do, even like the purest preaching of the gospel, is not gonna prevent this in every age of the church. The same state of the things that's existed in that is in the time of the early fathers. In the first century, and the church as it stands right now in the land and the time of the reformers, and of course with the best ministers at this hour right now and on your next Lord's day, and everyone after that, there is always and ever will be a visible church or a religious assembly in which the members are not all wheat. Yeah. And then I like what you're saying. It's this idea that. There's a great harm that's gonna come about if you try to lift them up because you cannot tell. So, and this is what's hard, I think this does influence like how we interact with people online. Certainly how we interact with people in our own congregations, but we are going to have no clear convicted proofs. We might only have like probable symptoms if we're really trying to judge and weigh out to discern the weeds from the weeds, which at most can only give us some kind of conjectural knowledge of another state. And that is gonna sometimes preemptively judge cause us to judge others in a way that basically there's a warning against here. It, it's, it's not the right time. And ba I think mainly from the outside where I find like this parable coming together, if there's like maybe a weird Venn diagram of the way Christians read this and the way unbelievers hear this, the overlap between them is for me, often this idea of like hypocrisy and you know. When people tell me that the church is full of hypocrites, either like Christian or non-Christian, but typically that's a, a, you know, statement that comes from the non-Christian tongue. When people say that the church is full of hypocrites, I do with a little bit of snark, say it's definitely not full of hypocrites. There are always room for more in the church and, and there's like a distinction of course between the fact that there is hypocrisy in the Christian or whether the Christian is in fact or that person is a hypocrite. So like when I look through the scriptures, we see like Pharaoh confessing, we see Herod practicing, we see Judas preaching Christ Alexander venturing his life for Paul. Yeah, we see David condemning in another, what he himself practiced and like hezeki glorifying and riches Peter. Doing all kinds of peter stuff that he does, and even all the disciples forsaken Christ, an hour of trouble and danger. So all that to say, it goes back to this like lack of clear, convicted proofs that I think Jesus is bringing forward here, but only probable symptoms. And I'm still processing, of course, like the practicality of what you're saying, Tony, that in some ways it seems like abundantly clear and sensible that you should, you're, you're gonna have a problem distinguishing. But our human nature wants to go toward distinguishing and then toward uprooting sometimes. And the warning here is do not uproot at the improper time. And in fact, it's not even yours to uproot because God will send in the laborers to do that at the time of, of harvest. And so there will be weeds found among the wheat. It's just like full stop statement. And at the same time it's warning, do not go after them now. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm sure this, um, I, I'm sure this will spill over into a second conversation, but we, I think we have to talk a little bit about the interpretation here before we, before we even like talk more about the parable itself, because if you're not careful, um, and, and. I need to do a little bit more study on this, but it, it's interesting because Matthew almost seems to want you to sort of blend these parables together a little bit. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Tony Arsenal: Right. These, these, there's three, um, there's three, maybe four if you count the parable of the treasure in the field. But there's three agricultural parables that have to do with sowing seed of one, of, one way or another. And in each one the seed is something different. And I, it almost seems to me. And then on top of that, the parables are like interwoven within each other. So like right smack in the middle of this, we have the parable. Uh, is given. Then the next parable of the mustard seed, which we're gonna talk about in a future episode, is given, and then the explanation of this parable of the tears is given. Um, and so we have to talk a little bit about it and sort of establish what the seed is, because we just spent three weeks talking about the seed in the par of the sower. Um, or the parable of the, of the soils. And in that parable, the seed was the word of God in this parable. And this is where I think sometimes, um, and again, this is like the doctrine of election in parable form, right? Yes. I think sometimes we read this and we, we misstep because the seed is not, uh, is not the word of God in this. The seed is the believers. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Tony Arsenal: Right. So the good seed is sewn into, uh, into the field, which, you know, I think maybe there'll be some, we, we can save this for, for next week. But a little sneak peek is, it's not always clear exactly what the field is. Right. And I think we often, we often talk about the field as though it's the church that doesn't necessarily align a hundred percent with how Christ explains the parable. So we'll have to, we'll have to talk through that a little bit. I affirm that it is the church in, in a, a broad sense. Um, but, but the, the way that Christ explains it slightly different, but the, the seed is sewn into the world. The sons of the kingdom of heaven are sowed into the, into the world. And then the seed of the enemy, the bad seed, is the sons of the devil that's also sewn into the world. And so these two seeds grow up next to each other. If we think about the seed here as though it's the word of God, rather than the, the actual believers and unbelievers that elect in the ate, we're gonna make some missteps on how we understand this because we're not talking about, um, the, the seed being, you know, doctrine being sewn into the world. And some of it grows up good and some of it grows up bad or good doctrine and bad doctrine. We're talking about the believers themselves. Sorry, Jesse is mocking my rapid attempt to mute before I cough, which I, I did. That was pretty good. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that was, that was pretty good. Listen, this is real. Podcasting is how it goes. Yeah, I'm with you. Thank you for pulling out that distinction. 'cause it is critical. We, we have some overlap of course, with Jesus being really ascribed as the farmer, the son of man, right. He's sowing this good seed, but not the word. It's believers or the sons of the kingdom. And it is into his field, which is the world. Part of that world of course, is necessarily the church, right? But while everybody's sleeping, this enemy, the devil, he comes, he sows weeds or unbelievers, the sons of the evil one among this weed, they grow, go up together. And of course, like if I were servants in this household, I'd ask the same thing, which was like, should we get the gloves out? Yeah. Just pull those bad boys out. Like and, and so again, that's why I find it very so somewhat shocking that. It's not just, you could see like Jesus saying something like, don't worry about it now because listen, at the end of all time when the harvest comes, uh, I'm gonna take care of it. Like it's just not worth it to go out now. Right. That's not entirely The reason he gives, the reason is lest they uproot the wheat by mistake. So this is showing that the servants who are coming before Jesus in the parable, in this teaching here to really volitionally and with great fidelity and good obedience to him to want to please him to do his will. He there, he's basically saying, you are not qualified to undertake this kind of horticulture because you're just not either skilled enough or discerning enough to be able to do it right. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um. Maybe just a word of meth methodology too. Um, this parable also flies in the face of all of the, like, parables are not allegories, kind of kind of people. Um, and this is, we talked about this in our introductory episode. You have to take each parable for what it's worth, this parable very much is explained like a traditional allegory, right? Right. [00:35:39] Understanding the Parable's Symbols Tony Arsenal: It's got, it's got several different elements and Christ goes through and the first thing he does is tell you what each element represents, right? The sower is the son of man, the field is the word. The good seed is the sons of the kingdom of the weed. It's like, he's like clicking down all of the symbols and then he explains how all of it works together and like a good, all like a good allegory. Once you understand what each element and each symbol is, the rest of it actually is very self-explanatory, right? When you understand who's what in the parable. The outcome and the sort of the punchline writes itself as it were. And I think this is one of those parables that we would do. [00:36:18] Challenging Our Sensibilities Tony Arsenal: I think we would do well to sort of let marinate a little bit because it does challenge a lot of our sensibilities of what, um, what is real in the world, what is real in terms of our interaction with the world, right? What's real in terms of the role of unbelievers in the life of a Christian, um, whether we can identify who is or isn't an unbeliever. Um, I think we, you know, I, I'm not one of those people that's like, we should assume everyone's a Christian. And I'm certainly not one of those people who's like, we should assume nobody is a Christian. But I think there are a lot of times where we have figures either in public or people in our lives. Like personal acquaintances that have some sort of outward appearance. And, and that's like the key here that that distinction between weeds is a, is not a great translation as you said. Right. Because right. That distinction between wheat and weeds, to go to my analogy, like it's very clear what is grass and what is this like carpeting, knob weed. Like there's no, there's no doubt in my mind, which is the weed and which is the grass. Um, that's not what we're talking about here. And so it does, it does say here, I mean, it implies here that it's not going to be easy to distinguish the difference between exactly. The, a son of the kingdom and a son of the evil one. And I think that's a, that's a. A theological pill that is very difficult to swallow. Yes. [00:37:43] Personal Reflections on Identifying Christians Tony Arsenal: Because a lot of us, um, and this goes back to like what I, what we were saying in the last, the last parable, A lot of us were reared in our Christian faith on sort of this idea that like, you can check your fruit or you can check other people's fruits and you can determine, you can easily identify who's a Christian and who's not. I remember when I was in high school, you know, I got, I was converted when, when I was 15 and, um, I got to high school and it felt very easy to me to be able to identify the people who were play acting Christianity and the people who were real Christians. That felt like the most natural thing in the world to me. Um, it, it's an interesting story, but one of the people that I was absolutely sure was not a Christian. That he was just doing kinda civic Christianity. He was in confirmation 'cause his parents wanted him to. Um, and I had good reason to believe that at the time he was very worldly. He, he, um, did not seem to be serious about his faith at all. There was good reason to make the assessment that I did. And then I ran into him on Facebook like 15 years later and he's a pastor at the Lutheran Church and he's, you know, he loves the Lord Jesus Christ. And he would not explain it as though he had a later conversion story. It's not as though he would say like, well yeah, in high school I pretended to be a Christian. And then, you know, I got through college and uh, I really became like I got converted. He would, would grow this, or he would explain this as slow, steady growth from an immature state that knew the facts of the gospel and in a certain sense trusted that Jesus was his savior and didn't fully understand the ramifications of that. I mean, who did at 15 years old? Mm-hmm. Um. And, and that it was a slow, steady growth to the place that he's in now. [00:39:21] The Difficulty of Distinguishing Believers Tony Arsenal: So I, I think we should take seriously, and maybe this is the takeaway for this week at least, and we can, we can talk about it more, is we should take seriously the fact that the Sons of the Kingdom and the Sons of the evil one in this parable are not only inseparable without doing damage, but in many ways they are not easily distinguishable. Jesse Schwamb: Right. On. Tony Arsenal: Um, and that, that's a baked into the parable. And I think we do spend a fair amount of time and I, I'll. I'll throw myself on on this. You know, this, we, I'm not just saying we, um, we as a genuine statement, like I have participated in this. I'm sure that I still do participate in this sometimes intentionally. Other times, uh, subconsciously we spend a fair amount of time probably in our Christian lives trying to figure out who is a Christian who's not. And it's not as though that is entirely illegitimate, right? The, the, as much as we kind of poke at the, the, um, workers in this who sort of are kind of chumps, right? They're sort of like the idiots in this. They, they don't seem to know how this happened. They propose a course of action that then the master's like, no, no, that's not, that's not gonna work. They can tell the difference, right? They can see that some are weeds and some are are weeds, and they're asking, well, what do we do about it? But at the same time he is saying like, you're not really competent to tell the difference, Jesse Schwamb: right? On Tony Arsenal: a good, uh, a good. Competent farmer could probably go out and take all the weeds out. Just like a really good, I dunno, landscape technician, I'm not sure what you would call it. I'm sure someone could come into my yard and if I paid them enough money they could probably fix this knobby grass, weed, whatever it is. Um, infestation. They could probably fix it without damaging the lawn. Like there are probably people that could do it. I am not that competent person and the workers in this are not that competent person. And I would say by and large in our Christian life, we are not that competent person to be able to identify who is and who isn't, um, a Christian who is or isn't a son of the kingdom versus a son of the devil. Jesse Schwamb: And there's sometimes like we just get history reprised, or it's like, again, the same thing microwaved over and served to you three or four times as leftovers. So it's also gonna remember like any as extension that like any attempt to like purify the church perfectly, and this has happened like donatism in the fourth century I think, or even like now, certain sectarian movements are completely misguided. Yeah. And Jesus already puts that out ahead of us here. It's almost like, do not worry what God is doing because God again is, is doing all the verbs. So here's a question I think we should discuss as we, we move toward like the top of the hour. And I think this is interesting. I don't know if you'll think it's interesting. I, I kind of have an answer, but I, I'll post it here first. [00:42:01] Visible vs. Invisible Church Jesse Schwamb: So the setup like you've just given us is two things. One, we got the visible church, we talk about the visible church. I think a lot across our conversations. Yeah. And we might summarize it, saying it's like the community of all who profess faith, maybe even the community of all who are baptized. Right. Possibly. Yeah. And it's going to include then necessarily as Jesus describes it here, true and false believers. So that's one group. Then we've got this invisible church, which as you said is the elect. Those who are known perfectly to God. So the good seed is those elect true believers. The weeds, then the weeds to me, or the tears, even better, they sound a lot like that. Second and third soils that we talked about previously to some, to some degree. I'm not, I'm not gonna lump them all in because we talked about receiving the word and it taking root, all that stuff, but to some degree, and also probably like a soil one. But here's, here's the way I would define them up and against or in contradistinction to the elector believers. They're the reprobate. They're false professors or they're children of the evil one. Now here's the question, Doni, Alex, I, I think this is very interesting. I'm trying to build this up for like more dramatic effect. 'cause now I'm worried it's not that good. The question is, I'm going to presume that this good seed, the elect, true to believers, the confidence of perseverance of the saints, the justification in sanctification of God's children is in fact though we at some points have our own doubts, it is made fully aware and known to the good seed. That is, we should have, as you and I have talked about before, the confidence that God has in fact saved his elect. So the question that on the other side is for the ta, do the tears always know that they are the tears? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, um, I've said this before and I, I mean it, and I think it takes probably more. More discussion than we have time for tonight. And and that's fine because we can do as many episodes on this as we want to. 'cause this is our show and you can't stop us actually. Jesse Schwamb: Correct. [00:43:56] Assurance of Faith and False Assurance Tony Arsenal: Um, I've said before that assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian. Jesse Schwamb: Amen. Tony Arsenal: Right. So I, I am not one to say that the technical terminology is that assurance is not of the essence of faith. Um, I think we have to be really careful when we say that it's not, but we have to be equally careful when we say that it is. Because if we say that assurance is of the essence of faith, then what that means is someone who doesn't have assurance, doesn't have faith. Um, the reason I say that we can say that is because there's a sense that that's true, right? If you don't believe you're saved, then you don't believe you're saved and you don't trust that you're saved. But that doesn't mean that you always have full awareness of that confidence. And, you know, I think, um, I think. I think you're, you're right that, um, it may not always be, let me put it this way. I, I think that we have to consider the entire life of a Christian when we're, when we're making that analysis. And in a certain sense, like, I'm not even sure we should be making that analysis. That's kind of the point of the, the, um, the parable here, or at least one of the points. But, um, when that analysis is made, we'll, we'll channel a little bit of RC sprawl. It's not as funny when he's actually, uh, gone. I don't really mean channel RC sprawl. We will, uh, speak in the tradition of RC sprawl, um, in the final analysis, whatever that means. Whenever that is. You have to consider the whole life of a Christian, the whole life of a believer. And so there may be times in the life of a believer where they don't possess that full assurance of faith or that that full assurance is weak or that it seems to be absent. But when we look at the entire life of a believer, um, is it a life that overall is marked by a confident trust, that they are in fact children of God? Um, that a confident, uh, a confident embracing of what the spirit testifies to their spirit, to, to borrow language from Romans, I think in, in the life of a true elect Christian, um, that with the perseverance of the saints, uh, with the persistence of the saints and the preservation of the saints, um, I think that yes, those who are finally saved, those who are saved unto salvation, if you wanna phrase it that way. They finish the race, they claim the prize. Um, that assurance will be their possession in their life as a Christian. Jesse Schwamb: Right on. Tony Arsenal: All of that to say, I think there are, are, there's a good case to be made for the fact that there is also people who have false assurance, right? And this is where it takes a lot more, you know, finagling and jockeying and theological explanation of how can we know we have true assurance versus false assurance. You know, it's kinda like that question, like, does an insane person know they're insane? Well, does a false, does someone with false assurance know that their assurance is false? I don't think, I don't think so. Otherwise, it wouldn't be false assurance. Um, if they knew it wasn't real assurance, then they wouldn't have any kind of assurance. So I, I think I agree with you at least where, where I think you're going is that we do have to, we do have to make some judgements. We have to look at our own life, right? Um, there is an element of fruitfulness in this parable, right? We'll talk about that. I, I think we'll get into that next week. But it's not as though this is entirely disconnected from the parable of the soils. Both of them have a very similar kind of. End point. [00:47:20] Final Judgment and Eschatology Tony Arsenal: At the end of all things, at the end of the harvest, when the end of the age comes, and the reapers, the angels are sent, what they're gathering up are fruitful Christians, right in the parable, he sends out the, it's funny be, I love my dispensational brothers and sisters, but in this parable, like the rapture is the rapture of the unbelievers, right? The angels go out and reap the unbelievers first. The, the weeds are bundled up and thrown into the fire, and then the, the fruitful wheat is gathered into the barns. Um, there is this delineation between the fruitless weeds and the fruitful wheat or the, the grain that has borne, you know, borne fruit. That is part of what the, the outward. Elements of this parable are, so we should talk about that more, of what is this trying to get at in terms of not just the difference between weeds and wheat and how that maps up to those who are in Christ versus those who are not in Christ, but also like what is this telling us about the, the end of the age eschatology. All of that's baked in here and we haven't even scratched the surface of that Jesse Schwamb: yet. Yeah, we, we, I, and we just can't, even on this episode, probably, you're right, we're gonna have to go to two so that, I guess it's like a teaser for the next one. I'm told they're with you. It's interesting. I've been thinking about that, that question a lot. And I do like what you're saying. You know, at the end here, it's almost as if Christ is saying at the time of harvest, things become more plain, more evident In the beginning. The chutes are gonna look really, really similar, and you're gonna go in and you're gonna think you're guessing properly or using your best judgment, and you're gonna get it wrong in the end when he sends out those who are harvesting. I liken this passage here in the explanation as you read to us starting in verse 36, how there's this comparison of heat and light. And so there is the heat and light of the fiery furnace into which, as you said, all of those who are the children of the enemy will be gathered up and burned. And then there's that contrast with in verse 43, then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. So there is like a reward that comes from the bearing of the fruit and that made evidence by a different type of heat and light. So I do struggle with this question because. It's easy to answer in some ways if we're defining the weeds in pirate or the tears in pirates as false professors typically. Let's say false professors of a nefarious kind, then it seems pretty plain that somebody, right, that the enemy has implanted certain people to stir up trouble with the intention to stir up trouble that is in fact their jam. Or they know that even if they're putting on heirs, that they're in fact play acting that the hypocrisy is purposeful and that it is part of like the missional efforts that they're doing to disrupt what God is doing in the world. So I might think of somebody like when we go, when we're looking in, um, Exodus, and we find that at least to some degree, all of Pharaoh's magicians can replicate everything that Moses is doing. Moses doing that by the power of God. But the magicians are so good and whatever means they're using, but they know, I presume they know they're not, they're not using Yahweh, they're not drawing their power or their influence from Yahweh. Tony Arsenal: Right? Jesse Schwamb: But it's so convincing to the people that Pharaoh is like, eh. Obviously I've seen that before because we just, we just did that here. Come back with your next trick until God flexes his mighty muscles in a really profound way, which cannot be replicated. And at some point there's a harvest that happens there. There's a separation between the two, those who are truly professing, the power that comes from God, the one true God, and those that are just replicating the cheap copy, the one that's just pure trickery and smoke and mirrors. So. That's an easy category. I'm with you. And I'm not saying that this is an invitation to bring the kind of judgment here that we've just spoken against. I'm not condoning this. What I do find interesting though is if the enemy is crafty, is it possible that they're always going to be forms of terror in the world that do feel that they have very strong conviction and belief about biblical things? Maybe there's, there's strong hobby horses or there are misguided directions here that pull us apart, that become distractions. Or maybe it's just even attitudes, uh, things that can be divisive, disruptive, derogatory that again, pull us away. For making the plain things, the main things and the main things, the plain things, which in some ways draws us back to like the whole purpose of you and I talking every week, which is we wanna get back to what the scripture teaches. We wanna follow the our Lord Jesus Christ very, very closely. I'm gonna clinging to the hymn of his rob as we walk through life so that we do not fall to those kind of false convictions. So I'm not, please hear me, loved ones. I'm not trying to call into question your faith as Tony just said. I am saying that there, this is kind of scary, just like we talked about. There are elements of the parables of the, of the soil that were equally scary. And so it's just in some ways to say, we gotta keep our heads not theological, swivel. We, we gotta be about the Lord's business, and we gotta be about understanding through prayer and study and communion with him, what it is that he wants to teach us in the purest way, knowing that the church itself and the world, of course, is never going to be entirely pure. At the same time, it is our responsibility to, as you already said, test for ourselves to understand what is that true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Because some tears are going to be maybe easy to identify and with without, you know, throwing too much shade or. I was gonna say spilling the TI don't think that works here, but I'm not young anymore, so I'm trying to use or or put on blast. Yeah. I'm looking at you Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Like it's, it's easier there to be like, yeah, right, this is wrong. It is a false profession, but we've just gotta be careful even in our own hobby, horses not deviates into ground. I think that doesn't preclude us from being children of the light and children of the kingdom, but can still be disruptive or uh, you know, just distracting. But either way, yeah. I think what's scary to me about this is exactly what you said, Tony, is, is could it be that there are people that are very sincere about the Christian faith, but are sincerely wrong? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: And what does that mean for God's elected purpose? What does that mean for our understanding of how to interact in our churches in the world? Does that make sense? Tony Arsenal: It does. And I'm not sure whether you were trying to set up the, what might be the first genuine reformed brotherhood cliffhanger, but you did. Because we're on minute 54 of a 60 minute podcast, and, uh, there's no way we're gonna get into that and not go for another 60 minutes. So, Jesse, I, I'm, I'm glad that we are taking our time. Um, I know that sometimes it's easy when you put out a schedule or you put out a sort of projected content calendar to feel like you have to stick to it. But I wanna give these parables, the time they deserve and the effort and the, uh, the, uh, study and the discussion that they deserve. And I think the questions you're posing here at the end of this episode are really, really important. And they are questions that this parable forces us to ask. Right, right. It's not as though we're just using this as a launching pad. Um. If the workers can't tell the difference between the, the seed and the, or the, the weeds and the weeds, it's reasonable to think that the weeds themselves may not be able to tell the difference. Right? The sons of the evil one, um, are probably not in this parable, are probably not the people like in the back, like doing fake devil horns, right? And like, you know, like there's, there's probably more going on that we need to unpack and, and we'll do that next week. Jesse Schwamb: I love it. So we've got some good stuff coming then, because we've gotta, this is like, do you ever remember when you were in, uh, you know, doing your undergraduate postgraduate work, you'd get like a topic or an assignment or a paper and you'd be super stoked about it and you start reaching it, be like, okay, researching it. And you'd be like, all right, I've got some good topics here. And then you get into it, you're like, oh, but I'm gonna have to talk about this. And Oh, like before I could talk, I'm gonna have to explain this. Sometimes when we get into these, as you and I have been talking, that's what it feels li

Father Pete Nunally is the founder of Water and Wilderness Church, a Washington DC-based outdoor church and watershed community. You can read more about the model of Water and Wilderness Church here. Father Pete is a passionate and well-spoken advocate on his social media pages and other forums, as in this interview with Creation Justice Ministries.Many thanks to Father Pete and the lovely group of people who welcomed Ron and me to Fletcher's Cove to worship with them last May. Winter? No problem. They worship outside anyway. Father Pete and some very faithful ducks.TRANSCRIPTPete Nunnally And so this expression and experience of worship begins to expand, and I think people are really looking for that. They want the church to tell them and to show them that God is everywhere, and that particularly in the natural world, the theological thumbprint of God is on all of this, and there's not a distinction or separation, but actually there's a union.Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I'm your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We're exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we're paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship.Today, I'm talking with Father Pete Nunnally, founder of Water and Wilderness Church. Father Pete is an Episcopal priest with a tender heart and a sense of adventure. The Water and Wilderness community meets outdoors for worship in several locations around the Washington DC area, adapting traditional worship forums in ways that enrich our encounter with God by reconnecting us with the rivers and trees and sky around us. Water and Wilderness is also a dispersed community, connecting anyone anywhere through online book studies, in-person retreats, and more. I talked with Father Pete outdoors, of course, at Fletcher's Cove on the Potomac River, just before joining their outdoor worship service. This interview includes a bonus trivia component. For extra points, see if you can identify the birds that join our conversation in the second half of the episode. Let's get to it.Debra Rienstra Father Pete, thanks so much for being with me today.Pete Nunnally I'm so glad to be here.Debra Rienstra It's great to talk to you. So let's start with what Water and Wilderness Church is right now. You're not a traditional congregation with a building. What are you, exactly?Pete Nunnally We are a church. We're an outdoor worshiping community geographically located in DC, but we are also a watershed community of the heart and worked in a lot of churches, and everything that that church did, wherever I was, was really only for the people at that church. But what's different about Water and Wilderness Church is the concept of watershed community. So the local community here in DC is like a wellspring, and out of that flow tributaries that go all over the country, and we create this watershed. And I use that word to mean both the watershed of a new idea or a new understanding of something, but also, like our physical watersheds are so important to us. And so anybody, anywhere—what I often say is Water and Wilderness Church, what we do is for anybody, anywhere, all the time. So if you are in Indiana, Arizona, California, these are states where we have people that are actively engaged in some of our online formation and things like that. That everything we do is for everyone, and most importantly, for the benefit of the earth.Debra Rienstra I wanted to ask about whether watershed was both literal and metaphorical for you, and it definitely is. You've also described Water and Wilderness Church as a threshold space. So what does that mean to you?Pete Nunnally I am influenced by so many of my friends that don't go to church anymore, and so many folks that label themselves spiritual but not religious. They just aren't going to go into a traditional church building. And I want to take what's beautiful and valuable about our Christian tradition, and I'm Episcopalian, so, you know, the Episcopal version of the mainline expression, and translate that and then bring it out to where people are. My sister, during Covid, said they take walks on Sunday morning with her family in different parks. And she said, “I get more out of that than I do going to church. I don't think we're going to go back to church.” And I thought, man, I get that. And when I tell that to priests and other church people, they nod their head and they say, like, yeah. Some of them are like, “I wish I could take a walk on Sunday morning.” Like, well, how can we receive this reality that people are living into, and they really are searching and seeking deep spiritual connection, but they're forced to take an a la carte approach. Like I walk in the woods and I get peace there, or I read a book by Thich Nhat Hanh, and I get a little bit of peace. I do you know, like a little bit of divinity here, a little bit of divinity there. Nothing that grounds all of that together. So to me, to take what's ancient, holy and divine about our Christian tradition and what we understand about God, and then to bring it out of the doors of the church, but with integrity, into the wild places, engraft our worship onto the worship of God that is creation. And I think that's what I mean when I say a threshold space. Like this is the world. This is the human world, this is the natural world. And then we sometimes just hide all of our really juicy, beautiful stuff about the Christian life as we've understood it for 2000 years, and we kind of lock that up into the church. And so we're trying to bring that out of the church and in a way that has integrity, but is in new spaces and lowering barriers for entry for people.Debra Rienstra Yeah, so you're responding to this kind of pervasive alienation between people and the natural world. One of the things I read on your website, and one of the things that you've said frequently, is, “What's good for the earth is good for the soul.” Yeah. Say a little more about how that phrase is meaningful for you.Pete Nunnally I think we forget that we are part of the community of creation. This is a phrase I got from you.Debra Rienstra Well, I got it from Randy Woodley.Pete Nunnally Randy, what a great writer and theologian. And so for a long time, we've forgotten that. Did you know our Christian tradition is an indigenous tradition, really? And we've scrubbed all of that away. You know the concept of Ubuntu, the African concept of “I am because you are,” and I cannot be a person if you're not a person. So like the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you. Like we understand that African sort of understanding that Desmond Tutu and others talk about, but what if we looked at creation the same way? That we can't be fully human unless the wild world that God created is free to be itself also. And we do. We've isolated ourselves from this world, like nobody knows—we're eating foods that are out of season all year round, and kids grow up and they think that the food comes from the grocery store. And yet, part of what draws us out into the world—see, part of why I like worshiping here is there's just people around. And you know, like they wanted to come and just be by the river today.Debra Rienstra Explain where we are today.Pete Nunnally We are at a place called Fletcher's Cove and Boathouse. It is a park along the Potomac River in DC proper. And once you get in, kind of the whole place opens up. There's forest that goes right up into the river. And actually, the Potomac River is tidal in this area, believe it or not, we still have tides all the way up here, and it's a beautiful place. All kinds of people come to the edge of the river to enjoy themselves. It's incredibly diverse: people of different nationalities, and celebrating birthdays and graduations and beautiful days. And I like to worship here because you have the combination of people, but also, it really is forest along the river, and so the trees are down and slowly giving themselves back to the earth, and you're interrupted sometimes by, in our worship, by what's going on in the natural world. And of course, that's not an interruption, it's just what God brings us next. So we have migratory birds and blue herons, and the shad run is just about over, but shad and herring come up the river to spawn, and that brings fishermen out along the river, including myself. And so you get to experience a fuller version of what happens in the world when you're in a wild place, and when you worship in that same space over and over again, you get to know it through the seasons, and it gets to know you. So we become known to the trees and the river when we continue to come back over and over.Debra Rienstra Yeah. So you do outdoor worship, but you have other things going on too. So describe some of the other things that you do.Pete Nunnally Well, we do Zoom book studies. Our very first one was Refugia Faith.Debra Rienstra Oh, I've heard that's good.Pete Nunnally It's really well written, insightful, highly recommend to everyone. And that's exciting, because we have 20 to 30 people from all over the country who join and it really is a community of the heart, like, “Oh, I believe that I see God in nature.” And a lot of these folks come from a Christian background, but their traditional worship, it's not doing it for them anymore. And they want to be validated, because you feel so alone when you're like, “I love Jesus. I grew up with church, but I don't think it's responding to the times that we're in,” and when the world is on fire and our planet needs us so much, so often the church is silent or has trouble finding out what to do. So to me, the natural world is going to show us what to do, and the more we come out here together and graft our worship onto—take the wisdom that we have and add it to the wisdom of nature and the ecology of God, then we're going to know what to do and cultivate a love of something, then you can really do something. So just to add one more thing on top of that, we do in-person retreats. And those are really, really fun. Next week, we're going to the Chincoteague Bay Field Stations, an educational marine lab, and they take us into the field, and they teach us about the marine environment. So we're learning about how barrier islands are formed, or, you know, dropping a net down and bringing up sea urchins and sea sponges. And we really get to experience and see what's underneath the surface of the water. And then we apply that to our spiritual life and see, not only is God amazing and all these things like—there's just the granularity of what God has has brought into this world, but then we can see where our faith can grow and our understanding of God can grow by encountering things we haven't seen before.Debra Rienstra Yeah. So I often ask people about their spark point, so the moment when you began to realize the urgency of the climate crisis. What was that point for you?Pete Nunnally I'm a fisherman, and fishing populations have been going down. I read a really wonderful book called Beautiful Swimmers by Warren Wilson; it won the Pulitzer Prize in the 70s about the Chesapeake Bay and the waterman. Even then he was talking about how the watermen were saying that the bay is sick. And I grew up here in the Delmarva area, seeing the sign “Save the Bay” and things like that, but it wasn't personal to me until I started spending more time there and and you can see like the effects of hardened barriers versus living shorelines at the end of the people's property. And that the fish population is leaving, like they're moving. And some of the charter captains that I know talk about like there are no stripers in the river, in the bay anymore. I mean, there are some, but the water is too warm, so they go north and they don't come back south. And then when I started doing Water and Wilderness Church, that was really an important entry point for me as well.Debra Rienstra How did you get other people involved in water and wilderness church? When was the moment where you said we need to worship outside and I need to gather people? How did that all work?Pete Nunnally Well, it started because we were at the end of Covid. We were kind of inside, kind of not. And I'm an old camp counselor, and I said, “I think...I think we can do this outside. And I'm pretty sure it all used to be outside.” And so many stories of Jesus: he's talking to people at the edge of the Sea of Galilee. He's talking to them, they're hiking up a mountain. Like these are things that we can actually do. And so these are rituals. And we walked and talked during Water and Wilderness Church. And so I just started it and said, “Hey, does anybody want to do this?” And some people came out of necessity, because we didn't really have a lot of church stuff going on.Debra Rienstra Yeah, this is at your parish?Pete Nunnally My church, yeah, St. Mary's in Arlington. And every Sunday we did it. We did twice a month. I thought, this is the Sunday no one's going to come. And people just kept coming. 23 people came in a snowstorm. Well, not a snow storm, but it was snowing. And the weather was bad, and people would bring hot cider. And when the weather was hot, they'd bring cold lemonade. And, you know, kids started bringing their instruments. So then we had this little homegrown, intergenerational band that started leading the music, and all I did was just keep showing up and saying, “I think this is good.” And then, you know, a beaver comes in the middle of our homily one day, and now all the attention is on this beaver that, Ron, is the size of you. It's a humongous beaver, and it slaps his tail like you see in the cartoons. And so this expression and experience of worship begins to expand. And I think people are really looking for that. They want the church to tell them and to show them that God is everywhere, and that particularly in the natural world, the theological thumbprint of God is on all of this. And there's not a distinction or separation, but actually there's a union. I grew up on four acres and a semi rural area right across from the Potomac, further up river. So I grew up playing in the creeks and the rivers, and spent a long time away from that, and during Covid, kind of came back to it. And as a priest, everything looked different after my seminary training. And I'm like, “Wow, this whole thing is magic. This whole thing is a miracle.” I mean, the river, it's the same river, and it's never the same river. We're here, and y'all can see this, but we just had major flooding in DC, and hundreds and hundreds of massive logs have washed up so far up, no one has seen it this far up and it's closed the road down here. And there's this immense redistribution of what used to be. And I think there's a spiritual biomimicry that we're trying to get at when we worship out here as well.Debra RienstraHi, it's me, Debra. If you are enjoying this podcast episode, go ahead and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. If you have a minute, leave a review. Good reviews help more listeners discover this podcast. To keep up with all the Refugia news, I invite you to subscribe to the Refugia newsletter on Substack. This is my fortnightly newsletter for people of faith who care about the climate crisis and want to go deeper. Every two weeks, I feature climate news, deeper dives, refugia sightings and much more. Join our community at refugianewsletter.substack.com. For even more goodies, including transcripts and show notes for this podcast, check out my website at debrarienstra.com. D-E-B-R-A-R-I-E-N-S-T-R-A dot com. Thanks so much for listening. We're glad you're part of this community. And now back to the interview.Debra Rienstra So you served as a rector for a long time, and now you're serving as the wilderness priest. So what has that dialectic been for you between traditional congregational life and what you're doing now? And maybe there's people in your community who are still doing normal church, so to speak, and also part of this. So talk about that dialectic a little bit.Pete Nunnally Yeah, when we began Water and Wilderness Church, I talked a lot about it being a good compliment, and that is—for anybody trying to do something new, it's a great way to position your new idea relative to the traditional authorities. And it is. People that are formed traditionally can see and understand what we're trying to do out here. And people say that they're like, I see the Episcopal, the mainline underpinnings of what's going on. On the other side, for people who are spiritual but not religious—and just so many good reasons to be that—I really want to affirm the journey that the church needs to take in order to repent and to worship God with integrity and consistency. But the deeper roots that we have as an ancient tradition, and as we were saying earlier, as originally, the followers of Jesus were following an indigenous tradition, and the people of Israel as well. But what the experience of worship is, we do Eucharist, but I tell the story of salvation in a way that's, I think, right size for people and personalized for people. The language in our Book of Common Prayer as Episcopalians is exquisite in some places. Also still has some language that can be interpreted as penal substitutionary atonement. And we wonder why people have that view, and it's kind of baked in in some of our stuff. So how can we focus on the story of Jesus to somebody who has never heard of Jesus, that's what I'm thinking. You're a spiritual person, or you love nature, and somebody invites you and says, “Hey, there's this church. I know you've been looking for more community, so you can't be spiritual in isolation. And maybe you could come here. It's kind of a church, but it's more relatable.” But we're not gonna get rid of Jesus. You know? So what does Jesus mean to somebody? Why do we need the Eucharist, for example?Debra Rienstra So talk about ritual, especially because one of the things I've been thinking about is the importance of ritual, and the way that people of faith are stewards of ritual. We have the sacraments, our sort of central rituals, but we also have other rituals, and you're adapting an Episcopalian flavored Eucharist in particular, maybe baptism too. Is it different when you do those outdoors? What do you do that's the same? What do you do that's a little different? How does it feel different when you're doing those rituals outdoors?Pete Nunnally When I was in my liturgy class, our professor—I fought with him a lot. Praying shapes believing was like the thing. And just to talk about the Episcopal thing, this is a mainline, this is for everybody, like the church needs to break down the barriers of denominations and all the rest. So this is really for everybody, but I'm an Episcopal priest. But I think the rituals become alive to me when they're done out here, and they are changed and translated sometimes. So when I tell the story of salvation, like typically we hold the bread and wine up at the end and say, “These are the gifts of God.” And when I started doing it outside, I said, “Well, hell. Like all of this is a gift from God.” And when you're inside, it's still all of this, but it's different when you say, “Look at the river, look at the sky.” This is all—and they say, “look at one another,” like you are all gifts of God. But I never would have come to that point without doing it outside. And then we say, “Take them and remember that Christ died for you and feed on him in your hearts by faith.” And I've never really liked that, because there's this sort of like, “Remember that Christ died, you know, and you should feel a little bit bad about it.” Christ died for you—and I thought, that's not what the Eucharist is really about. The Eucharist is about Christ living for us. And so I said, “Take this and remember that Christ lives for you, that love and justice and mercy and forgiveness, they live for you, with you and in you. And that is what these things are.” That's what we're about.Debra Rienstra So the way I've learned about the Eucharist is it's remembrance, communion, and hope. So it is remembrance of sacrifice, but it's also right now, communion with Christ, communion with each other, and then this kind of eschatological hope. But we do often in various traditions tend to get stuck in the remembrance part, and we miss the communion and the hope part. The hope for the feast to come, right? The heavenly feast to come, the ultimate telos. So even just doing it outdoors triggers that a little bit.Pete Nunnally Yeah, and this river is at least a million years old. And so when you're in an ancient place, in a regenerative place, all these logs are eventually going to become soil somewhere and feed on itself and to sustain the next thing—that's the communion of saints that we are part of. It's not just the people we read about in the Bible. It's us too, no different than the disciples, the women that supported Jesus's ministry.Debra Rienstra Have you ever seen the Cathedral of the Angels in Los Angeles? It has these beautiful murals on both sides of the nave, and it's depictions of famous saints, but then mixed in are regular Angelenos. The artists—just so that sense that we're all a part of this community is amazing.Pete Nunnally One more thing on ritual is that we we've had rituals pop up here—Debra Rienstra —That was my next question!Pete Nunnally —that we do now. Somebody, about a year in, somebody came and said, “Hey, Father Pete, there's always different groups of people here. It's like some come pretty regularly, and we have some new people. And how about every time, every beginning, we introduce ourselves and say one thing we're grateful for.” And I was like, “Lucinda, that's a great idea.”Debra Rienstra So simple.Pete Nunnally It's so simple, but can you imagine going to your priest or pastor at home and being like, “I have an idea for how we should start the service now”? Like, it's impossible to do. But so we do that every single time, and we circle up so the shape of us changes. When we gather, we're individuals, kind of a mob, and then we circle up so you see somebody says at traditional church—which, by the way, I love traditional church. But they say, “I go to church, I sit in a pew and I see the back of people's heads,” but at Water and Wilderness Church, we're circled up. I see your face. But yeah, so that's a tradition or a ritual here of offering ourselves up to God by speaking our name and beginning with gratitude.Debra Rienstra Yeah. Do you see a role for the church in—I don't want to say inventing, because that can make people nervous—but in, let's call it stewarding ritual, not just the sacraments, but other kinds of ritual that people really need in a moment of crisis, maybe rituals of lament, thanksgiving, as you suggest, other sorts of threshold type rituals that we really need as we deal with this moment of crisis?Pete Nunnally Do I see the church being able to do that?Debra Rienstra Yeah. Is what you're doing a kind of experiment in thinking about what what my husband Ron Rienstra would call liturgical shenanigans?Pete Nunnally Yeah, I think so. And I think that—again, like I'm from a highly liturgical tradition. We're just not able to change that much, you know? We'll have a season of creation, which we did last year, my traditional church, you know, I love those resources. They're great, but everything else is exactly the same, and so we save different words. But what I like to think that we're inviting people into is an alternative way of being in the world based on Jesus's radical love. And one way to do that is to do this outside and let our worship be informed by something that's been here a lot longer than we have.Debra Rienstra Yeah, yeah. So I wonder if there's something about these sort of experimental spaces that effectively can jar traditional churches, which I also love, but jar us into being a little more inventive, a little more attentive to the moment, by doing something so different, you know, we can learn from your example in more traditional churches and congregations and say, “You know, it's not so scary to try stuff.” We tried stuff during the pandemic too. And honestly, I really miss being outside and hearing the birds worship with us, essentially. You know, I feel like worship is not complete without birdies! But we, I think churches so often just say, “Well, let's just do things how we always do them,” because it's already hard, but to have experimental spaces like yours, where you're just trying stuff and it's fine and you're actually discovering riches and richness that you wouldn't have discovered otherwise. Okay, but true confession time. What do you miss about traditional worship in a sanctuary, high Episcopal sort of traditional worship, if anything?Pete Nunnally What we're still working on is how to build lament in every time. And I like the confession of sin and the absolution. It's important to me, and it's important for everybody. Again, you know, our spiritual-but-not-religious brothers and sisters, I'm with you. I totally get it. I'm first in line to criticize the church. But if our spirituality is just what feels good to us, then we're never brought into that place of pain, and in reality, the reality of ourselves in our lives, and then the reality of God's forgiveness and sustenance and redemption. And confession is a big piece of that, particularly in the natural world, we have done so much and continue to do things to harm your planet.Debra Rienstra I guess I would not have guessed that your first thing would be confession. But it suggests that there are these theological wisdoms that come from practice and reflection over centuries of the church, and you're in a place now where you're thinking through where our emphasis needs to go, and maybe lean away from, so maybe leaning away from our sort of focus on buildings and programs. And leaning into some of these deeper things. There's certainly advantages to buildings and programs, right? But what sort of theological ideas, or even—I don't know practice is the right word—but what sort of theological ideas or practices do you feel we need to really lean into right now, at this moment?Pete Nunnally Obviously, I think we need to go outside, like do it outside.Debra Rienstra Maybe lean into that kinship with all creation. That's part of the tradition, but...Pete Nunnally We're not on top of it. We're supposed to be within it. And the body of Christ is not just humans, it is the natural world as well. I look out, the river is—we're water people, and I did a river baptism last week.Debra Rienstra Did you?Pete Nunnally Yeah, down in Petersburg, Virginia, and it was amazing—to have everybody on the bank, and we walked out into the river and took this little baby, Rixie, and dunked her in three times. And it's hard not to feel there's the intimacy of God in that moment, because it is a flowing river that's connected then, to the James River, which goes to the bay, which goes to the ocean. There again, with the communion of saints and this interconnectedness, I think we just run away from God in so many different ways. And one way is that we hide away from this natural world.Debra Rienstra Yeah, and people are so hungry for embodiment. So to me, connecting embodied ritual with the world is a deeply incarnational response, right? If we really believe, as you say, that Christ is incarnate, then we can't forget that we are bodies on a planet. So that, to me, is where you know something like a river baptism just—sorry about this, but overflows with the resonance of our embodiment and with incarnational theology. So two final questions: where is Water and Wilderness Church headed? Your goal is not growth. You don't have a building to deal with or programs to continue. So what is the goal for you? Where are you envisioning the future for Water and Wilderness Church?Pete Nunnally I do want to grow, but one of the goals is to show—when I was younger, and people would say like, “Oh, you know, understand your life, and then like, you'll find what you really want to do.” And Buechner talks about your vocation is where the “world's deep hunger and your deep gladness meet.” And it was about a year into doing this before I realized, like, oh, my whole life makes sense. So I grew up outside. Fished a lot. I've loved church. I went to church camp, and was always confused by the gap between this embodied reality of God in community at camp and then we go to church, very sacred space, but very, very different and not as embodied to me, and... what was the question?Debra Rienstra The question is, what do you envision the future of Water and Wilderness Church to be?Pete Nunnally I have always kind of felt like I'm on the outside of things, but that situates me very well to do something like this. And I think the future is that we continue to offer this, and this is a church community, so we're going to build a community of people, and our building will draw, you know, 20 or 30 people here today to worship in this way, and draw people in who've been waiting for something like this. Henry Ford said, if he'd asked people, they would have said they wanted a faster horse. Nobody knew they wanted a car until they got that opportunity to have one. And so that's a little bit of what this: “Hey, you can do it like this,” and it's not just all woo, woo, making up stuff. It's true woo. It's true, but it has these ancient roots. We're not getting rid of the central reason why we're here. We're just opening it up and letting God speak to us through nature. And I see tributaries all over the place. I see this as a movement. So we hopefully will keep a monthly service in Delaware. I want to have a monthly service in Maryland, in DC, obviously, weekly here in Virginia, and so that for people on our border from North Carolina, they're like, “I want to be on a board so that I can help this come to us in North Carolina.” Yeah, it's particularly people with neurodivergent kids. Like worshiping in nature is an incredible way for them to encounter God. It's so hard to sit still and pay attention to a traditional service. So I want to see wherever you go, you know, in six or seven months...wherever you go in the country...Debra Rienstra Hmm, six or seven months, huh?Pete Nunnally No, but eventually that there will be churches like this all over. And there are some. I think what's different about us versus some of the other expressions, is that we are faithful and have integrity to our Christian tradition, but it's really an act of recovery. We're not making anything up. We're just remembering what our spiritual forebears used to know about the wisdom of creation as it relates to God's ecology and our own personal lives. So I want to see churches like this in every state, in different places. We do it in DC, and people are always like, “Oh my gosh, you should do it in this very remote, beautiful place. “And I'll be like, “Well, I'd love to do that...” The highly populated areas, cities like DC and New York and Boston...the need is so great for people to be pulled off of the hamster wheel, because everybody wants to climb a ladder, you're going to realize it's leaning against the wrong wall. You get to the top, and you're like, “This isn't what I wanted.” All that work and effort. So my vision of the future is that there are multiple Water and Wilderness Churches. That's not a new concept. Evangelical churches and multisite churches all over the place, and it wouldn't be like that at all.Debra Rienstra Yeah, you're just prototyping, and people can find an expression.Pete Nunnally Somebody has to show other people that you can do it this way, and you can get it funded and make it self-sustaining. The watershed community is part of how we keep that self-sustaining, because you can encounter and you have touch points with our Zoom book studies, or with the videos that I do, or the blog or other resources. It's this gathering movement, this rising of the tide of spirituality that really is, like it's going to happen, because people—I talk to so many people and they're like, “Yeah, I don't go to church anymore, but I would go to that church.”Debra Rienstra That's something.Pete Nunnally They're like, “I would do that. I can't do this because it reminds me of past harm or hypocrisy or whatever, but I would do something like that.”Debra Rienstra It answers a deep, deep need that people don't always have the words for. But, as you say, when they see the possibility, something in them says, “Yes, that's what I'm looking for.”Pete Nunnally Yeah, Debra, and like me too. I still don't have the right words to express what happens to me when we do this. All I know is that I have to do this, and it's not easy. It'd be a lot easier to take a nice-paying, traditional church job with a staff, and you know, this regular stuff, but it's not what God wants me to do.Debra Rienstra Well, thank you so much for talking to me today. I have one final question: favorite fish, favorite fishing spot?Pete Nunnally My favorite fish would be, I mean, I sure love fishing for catfish, but that's a lot of hanging around. I would say redfish, and I like to fish down in the Northern Neck, which is where the Potomac and the Rappahannock and the York rivers go into the Chesapeake Bay. So the bottom end of those rivers are all salt water and they're just exquisite. So it's just so beautiful. And I love chasing down those redfish. Tastes delicious.Debra Rienstra Well, happy fishing. And thank you again so much for talking to me today.Pete Nunnally Thank you. Thanks, Debra.Debra Rienstra Thanks for joining us for show notes and full transcripts, please visit debrarienstra.com and click on the Refugia Podcast tab. This season of the Refugia Podcast is produced with generous funding from the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. Colin Hoogerwerf is our awesome audio producer. Thanks to Ron Rienstra for content consultation as well as technical and travel support. Till next time, be well. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Guest homilist the Rev. Isaac Villegas, Mennonite minister and author of “Migrant God,” preaches on the eighteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

The Rev. Candy Snively preaches on the seventeenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Well, we cram a whole lotta information into not so much time this epsiode.  This episode takes us to New York City to visit The Basilica of St. Patrick's Old Cathedral and to Boston to visit the Old North Church.  We cover the history of these Crypts, find out when they were built, why they were built and what led to their underground storage spaces for the dearly departed.  We cover their hauntings and appearances in popular culture as well so join us for this special spooky season episode as we dive deep into the spectral shenanigans and living history of both of these beautiful buildings in another spooky season episode of the Family Plot Podcast!!Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/family-plot--4670465/support.

The Rev. Robert Fruehwirth preaches on the sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Guest homilist the Rev. Wesley Spears-Newsome, associate pastor of Greenwood Forest Baptist Church in Cary, preaches on the fifteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Guest:Mark DiGiovanni is founder and president of Marathon Financial Strategies Inc.Website:https://www.marathon-forthelongrun.com/Bio:-Runner since 1969-BS in 1975-Middle school teacher 1976-1980-Married since 1983-MBA in 1987-Passed CPA exam in 1988-Episcopalian since 1989-Father since 1989-Founded Marathon in 1995-Certified Financial Planner (CFP) since 1997-Chartered Financial Consultant (ChFC) since 1997-CFP Ambassador since 2010-Named a Five-Star Wealth Manager by Atlanta magazine last thirteen years (click here for details)-Board member of Episcopal Community Foundation since 2017-Member of AARP's Executive Council since 2018-Wrote seven books in ten years. (See Mark's Books-Free to You page.)

The Rev. Cathy Deats preaches on the fourteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Erica Ridderman, Minister for Children, Youth, and Family Formation, preaches on the thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Group Guide Use this guide to help your group discussion as you meet this week. TranscriptGood morning. My name is Spencer. I am one of the pastors here. So we, as I said last week, we are taking a break. We just finished up First Samuel and we are not going to jump straight into Second Samuel. We're going to do that in the new year. We're going to do a series called re member series called Remember. We'll do that through the fall and then we'll do give series and we'll come back to Second Samuel. We're excited about this series. This is an opportunity for us to revisit and remember what it means to be a member of this church. See how clever we are with titles, you guys. There you go. One clap. It's an opportunity for us to revisit what it means to be a member of this church. So we're going to over the next few months walk through our membership commitments and revisit the things that bind us together as beliefs and practices. And then if you are a member of this church, we'll have the opportunity this fall to actually recommit to membership. We're excited about that and we're going to have more information about that at our upcoming family meeting. So make sure that you are there if you're a committed member of our church, to be at family meeting. But we're thankful that we get to walk through this over the next couple months. These 14 different membership commitments that we have before we jump into those commitments today, I want to look at the why and the what of membership. We need to look at the why and the what of membership before we jump into what we actually commit to as a church. Because some folks will pose the question, why membership in the first place? Why do you have membership? Why belong to a church? Some people ask, is church membership even biblical? Like, where do you get this idea? So we're going to examine that idea while also being clear about what it means to be a member of this church. Like what is our membership commitment all about? And there's some language that we use that is going to sound very familiar, that if you ask what does it mean to be a member of of Mill City Church of Cayce, There's a phrase that will show up as we walk through this today. I know it's going to blow your mind like you've never heard it before. But we are a gospel centered community on mission. It's the language we use over and over again. I'm pretty sure it's on the wall somewhere in the lobby. But there's a reason we are that and there is a Reason why that really defines who we are as a church. And we're going to see that as we walk through why membership, but also what it means to be a member of this church. So I want to pray for us and then we will walk through this together.Heavenly Father, I pray that you might help us have ears to hear this morning. I pray that you might help us see why it is good to belong, why it is good to commit to following you, to delighting in you, to loving one another, to being obedient, to take the gospel to our city. God, I pray you'd help us be present and we'd be not just hearers of the Word, but we would be doers of the Word. As we trust you, we ask this in Jesus name. Amen.All right, so why do we practice church membership? Someone will ask, where in the Bible do you find the command to be a member of a local church? Now, this may come as a shock to some of you, but you're not going to find any one verse in the Bible that commands for you to be a part of a church through church membership. There's no Third Corinthians that shows up and says, and be a member of a local church and submit to the elders of that local church. There's not any one verse that really makes this crystal clear, which is if there was, it might make the conversation about membership a little bit easier over the years as we've had it. But what you will see is as you look through the Scriptures, you'll see that God is doing something in setting up his church. And that's what I want to do. For the first part in answering why membership? I want to do what's I want to do a biblical theology of church membership, which is going from the Old Testament to the New Testament to see how God is developing this people that is going to belong to him, with him at the center to declare His Excellencies to a lost world. So that's what I want to do, starting off in the Old Testament, in the book of Genesis. So God chooses in the Book of Genesis, Abraham that he's going to form a people through. He promises Abraham he's going to have a great nation that's made through him. And in this selection of Abraham, we see that God is going to have a unique, special relationship with him and his people, unlike the rest of humanity. And there's this promise of this great nation, this great people that he's going to bless the nations through. And then when you get to the next Book of The Bible, the second book, the book of Exodus. You see that God takes his descendants, the twelve tribes of Israel who have been slaves in Egypt. He brings them out of Egypt. And when they're wandering in the wilderness in Exodus 19, you see really the formation and the formal covenant relationship that God establishes with his people. And in Exodus 19 he tells his people in verse 5,> Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.These are the words he shall speak to the people of Israel. Then he tells them that you are my treasured possession. And as this is going to play out, he's going to take this people, his treasured possession to the promised land. He's going to set himself up in the center of his people to be a God centered people that are uniquely his, unlike any other aspect of creation, unlike any other people. And that this people is going to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. This people was meant to be separate from the nations that look different, that proclaim the excellencies of God as a light to the surrounding nations. And then this is Exodus 19, right before Moses goes up to Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments. When he gets the Ten Commandments, you see the first four commandments and the Ten Commandments are God centered commandments. This is how to have right relationship with God and worshiping God alone. And then the next six are how to live in good community with one another, how to love one another, how to trust one another, don't lie, don't murder, don't steal. And then the rest of the Old Testament law is really expounding upon those 10 Commandments. It's helping them see in their context, in their time, this is what it means to be a people who has God at the center, who loves one another fiercely in a community that takes care of one another, that looks separate from the nations, that declares how good our God is. And when you read the rest of the Old Testament, you see a people that most of the time falls on their face in trying to live that out, that over and over again. They don't put God at the center, they worship other gods, they don't love each other, they don't serve each other, they take advantage of one another. And instead of looking separate than the nations in order to show how good their God is, they look just like the nations. And that is the reason that they need a Savior and there's this hope from the prophets proclaiming this Savior is going to come. And then Jesus comes.Flip to the New Testament. When Jesus comes, he begins to develop this with new and better language. You see, if you just take the Gospel of Matthew, just start there. When you start reading the Gospel of Matthew, you're going to see what God is doing. In Matthew chapter 4, Jesus begins His ministry by preaching the gospel, proclaiming the gospel of his kingdom that is coming, and declaring the good news. And then he also chooses a people. He chooses the 12 disciples, these disciples whom he's going to build his church through. He begins teaching them. You keep flipping. Go to Matthew chapter five through Matthew chapter seven. You read the Sermon on the Mount. This is a retelling of the law and new and really better language, showing the heart of God all along for his people. What it looks like to put God at the center, what it looks like to take sin seriously, to live in community. We see some of this and more teaching, more of his ministry. When you get to Matthew chapter 11, you see that he commissions out his disciples. He puts them on a mission trip to begin to declare the good news of the Gospel to the people in the surrounding areas. You keep reading the Gospel of Matthew, you see more teaching, you see more of his work and his ministry. And then you get to Matthew chapter 18. And then Jesus begins to use a word to describe what this people is going to be, that he's making this new covenant people, and that is the church. The Greek word for that is ekklesia. It means church or assembly. And it shows up in Matthew 18. And Jesus begins to describe what this church is going to look like. It's going to be a people who take sin seriously, who hold each other accountable, who practice radical forgiveness. That is unlike the rest of the world. Jesus continues to teach. He continues to form his people. He continues to disciple his disciples. And then it is time for him to do the work that no one can do. He does the work of salvation. He takes his perfect record of righteousness with him to the cross. He dies on the cross for our sins because we were unable to to obey the law. He dies on the cross, taking judgment upon himself. He conquers death at the resurrection, removing the power of death over his people. And then he looks at his disciples at the end of Matthew and he tells them,> Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.He tells them, you're going to take everything that you've learned from me over the last three years. This message of the gospel that I came to redeem you and save you. This message of what it looks like to be a people that are committed to having God at the center and loving one another. Well, you're going to take that to the nations where they're going to hear the gospel and believe and you can read Mark and Luke and John and you're going to see this story over and over again. Then you get the book of Acts where Jesus ascends to the right hand of God the Father being king over all creation. And then the Holy Spirit descends upon his people and the church begins in Acts 2. You read that Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit stands up, preaches the first sermon at Pentecost and 3,000 people, people place plus people place their faith in Jesus and are baptized. And then we see some of the very first acts of this church and responding to Christ in faith and baptism. It says in verse 42. We'll have more time to study this exact passage in community group this week. I just want to hit some of the highlights to help us see what God is doing here. In verse 42 he says,> And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.That's the teachings of Christ. They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching. They were a gospel centered people. And it continues into the fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayers. You go to verse 44.> And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.That they were a people that believed the gospel, devoted themselves to that teaching, but they devoted themselves to one another. They fellowshiped together, they broke bread together, they took care of each other's needs. They saw their brothers and sisters in Christ as more important than money and material things. And they're selling their stuff so that they can take care of one another. And then it goes in verse 47 and finishes.> And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.That this message continues to be introduced to people who hear and believe and are brought into the church to continue to be a gospel centered community on mission to take the gospel to the world that desperately needed it. The church in Jerusalem continues to expand as you follow the story. Keep flipping through Acts. All of a sudden God has a plan to see scatter his people and involves the death of one of his servants, Stephen. He ordains the death of Stephen who's proclaiming the Good news of Jesus Christ and he's murdered for it. And in Acts chapter eight, after he's martyred, it says, and Saul approved of his execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. And they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. And now we see that the plan is spreading, that it's not just a church in Jerusalem now, it's in Judea and it's in Samaria. And the church is going global. One of the ways this has been described is that the church globally is the big sea church in creeds. That's called the Catholic Church. It's not referring to the Catholic denomination, but the Catholic meaning universal. That there's this global, universal church bound together by Christ. But it's not just in Jerusalem, it's in Judea, it's in Samaria. It's scattered in communities across the world in local churches. That's usually called the little C church. But there are little C churches who are forming together with Christ at the center, seeking to be what God has called them. Now the church is spreading past Jerusalem. And then that man who was involved in the killing of Stephen Saul in Acts chapter nine is on his way to persecute more Christians. And then Jesus blinds him, converts him. And then we know him mostly as Paul. And then Paul is set apart to take this even further. And he plants churches all over Asia Minor, all over Europe. And the church begins to spread and expand. As you continue to read the Book of Acts, you see the gospel spreading all over that region. But as these churches are getting established and they're seeking to be a gospel centered people that are taking the gospel to the nations as they're seeking to be this, they start to run into problems. They start to run into different things, different sins, different struggles. There's a bunch of people who the thing that the. The central binding idea that holds them together is Christ. But they're very, very different. Different ethnicities, different cultures, different classes. And as you continue to read the rest of the New Testament, you see that God had a plan for this, that he starts to write letters, inspired scripture through servants like Paul to these churches to help them see what it means to be a gospel centered people. How to fight for what is good, how to repent of sin, how to live in community, how to still have some missional hustle to take the gospel to the nations. But when you read the beginnings of these letters, you see very clearly that these are individual churches. I'll run through a Bunch of them. Really quickly. The letter to the Corinthians, in First Corinthians, Chapter one, it says, to the church of God that is in Corinth, that is that church in that city with their unique issues. This is a letter to that church. Not all the churches, though all the churches, will eventually benefit from this, helping us see now it's not just one global church. There's individual churches where these people belong to one another and have their own leaders and their own issues they're facing. It continues to the churches of Galatia, that's a whole region of different churches that Paul planted in his first missionary journey. To the saints who are in Ephesus, that's the book of Ephesians. To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, that's the book of Philippians. To the church of Thessalonians and God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, that's the church in Thessalonica. You start to see that there is one global church made up of individuals, communities of Christians who are seeking to be centered in Christ, loving one another fiercely and taking the Gospel to their friends and their neighbors. And you follow that thread all the way through the letters and you'll get to the end. The Book of Revelation, which we did last year. And as we saw the Book of Revelation, it's not just apocalyptic literature. It's not just proclaiming what's going to happen. It is also a letter written to seven churches. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and as we saw last year, all churches with different problems, with different sins, some needing encouragement, all of them mostly needing a smack across the face from Jesus. But those are all individual churches where those people belong to Christ and. And one another seeking to be obedient in following him and taking the Gospel to those who needed it. So that's Genesis to Revelation. While you're not going to find one specific verse that makes this so clear, what you can see from start to finish is that God had a plan to form a people. And that plan was to be localized in churches where there were people that were so deeply committed to following Christ and having a zeal and a desire to worship and delight in him over all things, to be a people, a community that so deeply loved one another and cared for one another, that looked radically different than the rest of the world. So much so that historians at the time were looking at these Christians and saying there's something different about them. And to be a people who are not so self focused that they were going to use their energy and their effort and their time and their money and their lives lives to proclaim the good news to those who didn't know. That is God's plan for redemption. One global church working through individual local churches all around the world. That is God's plan for the church. So when someone says I don't see membership in the Bible, I just want to say it's, you got to read the whole story. You need to see what God is doing. You need to see God's plan for redemption that is through the local church.I was talking to a pastor a few weeks back and he was telling me a story about a guy who had been coming to their church and he said, did this guy come? And he was kind of coming for weeks and they started to introduce the idea, maybe you should think about committing here. And he said, oh no, I don't believe membership is biblical. He's like, I'm a part of the big C church, we're all a part of the same church, but I'm not going to commit to membership here. And he was kind of taken aback and he engaged with the conversation. He said, okay, take what you're saying, so you're a member of the big sea, the, the big church universal. He said, yeah. He said, okay, well am I like a pastor in this big old church in the world? And he said, yeah. He said okay, so does it make me like your pastor? He said, yeah. He said, alright, let me share with you Hebrews chapter 13. He said,> Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.He said, do you believe that's true? He said, yeah. He said, okay, so if I'm your pastor and you're gonna submit to me, you should go through the membership process at our church. He just laid it out for him and the guy said no and he left and he never came back. And I thought that was quite the clever way to be able to explain and poke holes in the guy's argument. But that passage is incredibly helpful. You read the New Testament letters and you see that God has structured for these local communities that he has pastors, elders that are overseeing the church. So when I look at that passage, obey your leaders and submit to them. It's helpful for me when I'm talking to people about membership. It's like, I belong to this church, I'M one of the pastors of this church. I belong to them, they belong to me. My people aren't down the road. They're the brothers and sisters. They're not across town, they're not across the world. I don't pastor them, I don't oversee their souls. I don't answer for their souls. No, it's this people. And you see that God has a plan and even the oversight of his church. And I think this is important, especially in Southern culture. And here's why. In Southern culture, pretty much still everyone, if you ask them, are you a Christian? They're gonna say, yeah. The overwhelming majority of people in the south are still gonna say, yeah, I'm a Christian. And if you begin to press into that, a lot of times it's, well, I'm Methodist or I'm Presbyterian or Episcopalian, or I'm Baptist or I'm Catholic. And it's like, what does that mean? I was just born Christian, I was born a Methodist. And as you look at the scriptures, you're not born a Christian. And if you continue to press into this, what you also see is there are a lot of people that claim the name of Christ that don't really belong anywhere. They don't commit to any people, don't commit to the Lord locally anywhere. They're just free floating in a way that is so foreign to the scriptures. And then what you'll also see is you'll see people that go, yeah, I mean, I don't really, not really. I don't really, I'm not a member anywhere. I, I like this church for the worship. I like this church for the teaching. I like this church for their Bible studies, like this church for their small groups. I like this church for their outreach. And I kind of just, you know, take everywhere like it's a buffet. And it's like, man, to make the church of Jesus Christ for your own benefit is so foreign to what the scriptures teach about the church that is not the church that Jesus bled and died for. You should be committed to God and his people somewhere. And my hope is that as you look at the grand story, you'll see, yes, you should belong. You should be a member of a church somewhere. Christians are not designed to be outside of the church or just not. And over the next couple months, I hope we continue to see that over and over again as we walk through this.Now that's the why of why we should belong to a church. Now I just want to, as we end look at the what, what does it mean to belong to this church? And it's gonna sound like a broken record, but it's a good one. It's a record we spend every Sunday. It's what Chet Phillips calls the bee's knees of belonging, which I don't know why he calls it that, but it's really important to us. And that is being a gospel centered community on mission. And that's what you're going to see over the next two months. Walking through this, you're going to see 14 different commitments that highlight that. So let's start with that first part. What does it mean to be gospel centered? It means that we are a church that is bound together by. By one shared story. And that story is the message of the gospel. We are bound together by this one shared story in a way that not just defines us at the beginning in belief, but defines us in belief and practice the rest of our lives. If you look at the American story, okay, if you look at the American story at the beginning, you see that it's a group of people that are anti tyranny. Okay? No taxation without representation. No king's going to tell us what to do. You'll see that it's a people that love freedom, freedom of expression, freedom of worship, freedom of speech. Don't step on my freedoms. You'll see that it's a people that have some hustle, some dogged determination to exist. That's how America began. But that's also the story that permeates through its people throughout time, that even today, Americans don't like kings. Don't tell me what I can and cannot do. We like freedom and there's still some dogged determination to exist. That's the American spirit and it still flows through its people. And we as Christians have a much better story. We as Christians have a much better story. That's not just our origin story, but it permeates through us in our lives. It is the story of Jesus Christ. It is the story of a God who looked on humanity, that rejected him, that spit upon his goodwill, that decided that they wanted to worship what they wanted to worship and find what they thought fulfilling and rejected him over and over again. And God and His mercy does not give us judgment. He sends His Son that Christ comes and he dies on the cross for sinners. And he conquers death at the resurrection. And he gives us grace that we don't deserve to be in relationship with Him. And he forms us more into his image through his work, through his will and desire and good pleasure and that story continues to work within his people. It is the story that saves us, but it's the story that sustains us. In the same way that as foreigners come to America and they become American citizens and in a lot of ways embody the American spirit in beautiful ways, they start loving freedom. They start. They have this dogged determination within them. We do not belong to this world as Christians. Scriptures say that we have. Our citizenship is in heaven. From we have with a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, that we are part of the world that is to come. And as citizens of that kingdom here on this earth, as sojourners and strangers and foreigners, that we embody what it means to belong to him more than anything else. So what we'll see over the next coming weeks as we walk through these commitments, we'll see what it means to be a gospel centered people bound together by that story. But we will also see what it means to be a community. What it means to be a gospel centered community. One of the metaphors that we see in the New Testament for the church, for the this community is the body. So Romans 12, we'll talk about one body, many members. So one body, different body parts, different members of the body in a way that each person is doing their gift to be able to serve one another well. And man, when you see that actually in practice, when you experience what it means to belong to the church of Jesus Christ and have different members of the body who, who love and serve you, it is a glorious story. I mean, if you ever see someone who loses their job, which is a massive loss, and they're crushed, and then someone in their group finds out, and all of a sudden their whole group is messaging them saying, hey, we love you, like we're praying for you. You need to know that your identity is not in the work that you do. Your identity is in the God who loves you, who sustains you. God's going to provide for you. He's going to take care of you, we're going to take care of you. But you need to remember the gospel. And then all of a sudden, they're behind the scenes organizing things. By the time he gets home, there's already been a meal delivered and there's meals to be delivered the next few days. All of a sudden someone else in the church hears about this and they put $1,000 in an envelope and drop it on the doorstep. And all of a sudden he's being provided for, his family's being loved. And then more people in the church find out all of A sudden they ask, can we be praying about this? That you would find a new job that ends up in our prayer message that goes out to our members. Now the whole church is praying and then someone else in the church hears about that and says, wait a second, I know what he does for a living. I got a friend who's hiring for that position right now. They reach out and say, hey, hey, can you talk to this, Talk to my friend. He's hiring. And then within a week, he's already got a job lined up. When you see the church respond like that over and over and over and over again, it makes me so thankful for the church of Jesus Christ and how his church responds over and over again. We've seen this over and over again in our church and it's wonderful. And I wish in some ways more of those stories were told. I know why we don't. Because we don't let the left hand know what the right is doing. I get that. But the stories that go viral are the church hurt stories. And yes, those stories exist. They're real stories with real pain. I'm not denying the existence of them. But boy, oh boy, the amount of church help stories where people rally around one another, it's like 100 to 1 to 1 compared to that. The church is a wonderful people to belong to, to see them in action over and over and over again because they're centered in Christ in a way that helps us, by the power of the Holy Spirit, see something beyond our own interest. And when you see it in action, it's beautiful. It's a family. And that's the language of the New Testament. Often when it talks about the church and is family. When you start learning New Testament Greek, one of the first, you start with the vocabulary words that are the most, most used in the New Testament. And one of the first words you learn in Greek is adelphoi, it's the word for brothers and sisters. Because it shows up over and over and over again in the scriptures to talk about God's people, that we are a family, that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Paul, when he's making converts, talks about his converts like spiritual children. That we are a family, that we love one another, that we belong to one another. And when you study the Book of Acts, you see this. The church functions like a family. I was trying to explain this to someone recently. I was trying to explain this concept and I was just saying, listen, I'm close with my earthly family. I'm close with my parents, my brothers, and my sisters, like we are, we're close, but boy, oh boy, there's some eternal depth that I have with brothers and sisters in this church that when crap hits the fan in my life, the first few messages are not to family. And that's not to lower my earthly family. I'm real close with them. It's to elevate what the importance of church family is here. And when it hits the fan, I'm messaging people in this church and I got people in this church who rally around in wonderful ways. To belong to a family that fiercely loves God and one another is beautiful, it's compelling, it's wonderful. It is so good to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. And as you walk through the membership commitment with us over the next couple of months, you're going to see this. You're going to see how we fight for this, how this is so unbelievably important to us. We want to be a gospel centered people. We want to be a community that's like a family, but we also want to take this thing that we hold dear to those who don't believe. We're a gospel centered community on mission. And that's what we're also going to see in our membership commitment. We do not exist to be a holy huddle. We do not exist to be inwardly focused. We exist to take this wonderful news that brought us from death to life, to people, to friends, to neighbors, to co workers so that they might taste and see that the Lord is good and be brought into the family of God. We care deeply about this.Now, one of the downsides to you using the word membership is because sometimes the word membership in our culture has a consumeristic bent. I mean, you could be a member of Costco. It's a pretty low commitment. You pay, what is it, 80 bucks a year? You know, and then you get to go and buy all sorts of bulk goods that certainly will, certainly some of it will spoil in your cabinets because it's just hard to use up all that stuff before it goes bad. Maybe your family's better than ours. We couldn't do it. Or Walmart. Plus, that's not important. There's a consumeristic nature sometimes to the word membership that makes it about self, that makes it about our interest. And I still think the word membership is worth fighting for. I still think it's worth reclaiming from our culture to help us see that it is not about self, that membership is about something bigger than us. It's about a people who leverage their time and their Talents and their energy and their money and their efforts and their lives so that others who do not know Christ, others who are sprinting towards an eternity apart from God under his wrath, who desperately need to know the love of a savior who bled and died for them, that it's worth our energy and our hustle and our grit to take that. To those who don't believe. It's not a country club. It's more like a military outpost. The membership we have here, we don't want to be a country club. Country club is low commitment. You pay your fee, you get to go play golf, get to enjoy the pool, but you don't keep the greens and you don't scrub the pool. We don't want to be that. We want to be more like a military outpost. Our country has military outposts all over the world. And the members of the US Military who are at those outposts, they are there to serve the interest of America. They. They're there to serve the interests of their commander in chief. They are there bound together, laser focused, whether it's promoting the values of America in that area of the world or at times, whether it's fighting a war, but they are laser focused, committed to the mission of America. And we have something so much better than that. We are citizens of a kingdom that is not of this world. And we serve a king who. Who reigns for eternity. And we get to serve him in a land that we do not belong to, that is foreign to us. And we get to serve his interests taking the gospel to people who do not know him, making enemies, friends, making the lost found, making the dead alive in Christ. That's what we want to be. The church is supposed to be. And I'll be honest, we've had folks in the past who came to our church looking for a country club and they just didn't stick. And we're not perfect. We got our flaws. You've been here long enough, you go learn them. But that's not what we want to be. But we've also had folks who've been there and done some of the Southern consumeristic Christianity. And they see the things that we're fighting for and they love it and they jump on and they see I do. I want to be a people that loves one another fiercely, that chases after Jesus together. That is taking the gospel to those who don't believe. I want to be a part of that. And they jump in and we hustle and we fight to be the church of the New Testament and the scriptures that we see that hustled and fought and was missional and had some dog in it. Like we want to be that type of church to missionaries, be everyday missionaries here in this city, in Columbia. So we want to be. And as we walk through the membership commitment over the next few months, this is something that is going to show up. And at times it's hard. I'm not going to lie. At times living out the ideals and the practices and the beliefs of our commitments is difficult. And what's helpful for my soul, maybe it'll be helpful for you, is I like to take the 10,000 year perspective when I think about all this stuff. 10,000 years from now, are you going to regret when you look back at this life not picking up more hobbies, not being the best pickleball player in the world, not using all your money to level up to the next part of society, to the next class, Are you going to regret not fulfilling the American dream and all of its trappings? Or are you going to be so insanely thankful that the work of the Spirit went to work in your heart in a way that helped you leverage your time and your energy and your heart's desire to be a people so deeply centered on the gospel, so deeply, fiercely loving one another and so outwardly focused that you took the gospel to some of your co workers who currently right now are walking as enemies of the cross of Christ because you love them, because you served them, because you stood in the way between them and hell and said Jesus is better than everything else. And they placed their faith in Jesus and they got baptized and they joined a group and they kept fighting to believe all the way to 10,000 years from now. They are standing in the presence of their Savior, worshiping him with you because you gave your life away to something that matters. That is what our commitment is all about. And that's what we're gonna look at the next couple of months. My hope is that for the members of this church, you'd be so deeply excited that you be so thankful for the work of Christ in our lives that we get to do this together. But if you're not new and you're checking us out, I hope you stick around. I hope my yelling didn't run you off. It's just, I'm just excited, you guys.

It's time for Anglican history class-- average version! Today's episode is an overview of some notable figures in Episcopal history that we think you should know. Our eccentric list includes Episcopalians with historical significance, who contributed to our theology, who spoke up for important issues, famous people, and even fictional people! We cover topics like the infamous “three-legged stool”, the role of authority in religion, what historical events motivated the creation of the first BCP, and why we think Gandalf is Episcopalian. Can't get enough of the Average Episcopalian? Visit our webiste: theaverageepiscopalian.com Follow us on Instagram: @average.episcopalian Sign up for our monthly Substack newsletter: averageepiscopalian.substack.com More questions? Send us an email: average.episcopalian@gmail.com

The Rev. Sarah Phelps preaches on the twelfth Sunday after Pentecost.

The Rev. Javier Almendárez-Bautista preaches on the eleventh Sunday after Pentecost, his final service as Senior Associate Rector at St. Paul’s.

Send us a textAccess to mental health care remains out of reach for millions, especially in rural communities. In this episode of Caretalk, John Driscoll speaks with Dr. Tom Milam, Chief Medical Officer of Iris Telehealth, about breaking down barriers through telehealth, tackling stigma, and the promise of technology and AI in expanding timely, compassionate mental health support.

Fr. Scott Wooten grew up firmly Anglican, but attended Catholic school. As he continued toward ordination as an Episcopal priest, he persisted in the belief that the Anglican, Orthodox, and Roman churches were all legitimate branches of the true Catholic Church, so he didn't feel that there was ever any need for him to become a “Roman” Catholic; he considered his form of Anglicanism to be legitimately “Catholic." Eventually moral questions in the Episcopal church forced him to decide whether to stay Episcopalian or join the Anglican Church of North America. Pondering this question about the ultimate character of Christian authority, Fr. Wooten finally felt fully convicted to become Catholic, being received and eventually ordained a Catholic priest through the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

Today we honor the journey of Mary B. Safrit, a writer, podcaster, and content creator, to explore her story of growing up in the Bible Belt, navigating faith, queerness, and deconstruction. Mary B. shares candid reflections on her upbringing, spiritual journey, and the challenges and growth that come with embracing her identity and leaving behind people-pleasing tendencies. Together, MaryB & Leslie discuss the complexities of church culture, relationships, and finding authentic community.Topics of Interest:Childhood memories growing up on a farm and in the SouthNavigating multiple church traditions (Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic school, Southern Baptist)Experiences with evangelicalism, purity culture, and people-pleasingComing out as queer and the impact on faith and relationshipsThe challenges of deconstruction and leaving church communitiesThe importance of authentic friendships and making peace with lossBuilding community, healthy relationships, and embracing personal agencyMary B.'s work as a podcaster and writer, and where to find her onlineCheck out MaryB's podcast, Found Family HERE.Find out more about MaryB on her WEBSITE. Honoring the Journey is hosted, produced and edited by Leslie Nease and the artwork for the show is also created by Leslie Nease.Want to get updates/announcements and a FREE Deconstruction Journaling Prompt PDF? Sign up for Leslie's Monthly Newsletter! You can do that HERE.Pick up Leslie's new book, Honoring the Journey: The Deconstruction of Sister Christian here.Interested in working with Leslie as your Life/Faith Transitions Coach? Check out her website and learn more about what she offers! https://www.leslieneasecoaching.comIf you'd like to be a part of the Honoring the Journey Team as a Patreon Supporter, please check it out at this link!Would you like to leave a voicemail for Leslie? Click here!If you are looking for community as you deconstruct or just a place to go and enjoy the company of people who are seekers, learners and who are looking to connect with the Divine without religious baggage, please join the Private Facebook Community! Leslie is very passionate about connection and community, so if that sounds like you, please come join us!

The Rev. Candy Snively preaches on the tenth Sunday after Pentecost.

Fr. Nigel Mumford is an Episcopalian priest who has seen his fair share of deliverance and miraculous healings. We welcome him to the show to share some of his more profound encounters. Thank you to our sponsorsOllie- The best dog food for your dog. Period. Check out the incredible pet food from Myollie.com/exfiles . Use our promo code EXFILES to get 60% off your welcome kit today.Add Graza Olive Oil to your summertime patio party arsenal. Visit https://graza.co/EXFILES and use promo code EXFILES today for 10% off of the TRIO!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What happens when a Baptist, an Episcopalian, an Eastern Orthodox, a Roman Catholic, and a non-denominational Christian discuss the Eucharist? Brad, Brian, Matt, Jonathan, and Paul arrive at a point of convergence which relies upon a depth of history, very much associated with the Eastern tradition.  (Sign up for the class Human Language, Signs of God: using Anthony Bartlett's two books, Theology Beyond Metaphysics and Signs of Change, as one continuous argument.  The course will run from 2025/9/16 to 2025/11/4. Register here: https://pbi.forgingploughshares.org/) If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider donating to support our work. Become a Patron!

The Rev. Javier Almendárez-Bautista preaches on the ninth Sunday after Pentecost.

Trevor Stuart was born in Florida, but raised in Seattle. He was the son of a tech CFO and an Episcopalian minister - so he learned life at many different angles. He graduated from Boston College, and went into investment banking at Morgan Stanley. Beyond that, he worked at RelateIQ prior to being acquired by Salesforce, which then led him to start his own thing. Outside of tech, he's married and expecting his first child soon. He lives in Sonoma, and loves wine - which type depends on his mood and the time of year.At RelateIQ, Trevor and his team had a core problem - pushing more code, and looking to move faster, but limiting the amount of quality issues. His co-founder built the early workings of a system he had seen at LinkedIn, around gate keeping features. Eventually, post acquisition of this company, they decided to start building this solution on their own... which led them toward their own acquisition.This is the creation story of Split andHarness.SponsorsPaddle.comSema SoftwarePropelAuthPostmanMeilisearchMailtrap.TECH Domains (https://get.tech/codestory)Linkshttps://www.harness.io/https://www.harness.io/blog/split-joins-forces-with-harnesshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/trevorbstuart/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/code-story-insights-from-startup-tech-leaders/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Step into a treasure trove of rare stories, photos, and audio clips as Bill Scherkenbach shares his decades with Dr. Deming. From boardrooms to sleigh rides, discover the moments, minds, and memories that shaped modern quality thinking, told by someone who lived it. A powerful blend of insight, humor, and history you won't want to miss. (You can see the slides from the podcast here.) TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.4 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Scherkenbach, a dedicated protégé of Dr. Deming since 1972. Bill met with Dr. Deming more than a thousand times and later led statistical methods and process improvement at Ford and GM at Deming's recommendation. He authored 'The Deming Route to Quality and Productivity' at Deming's behest and at 79 is still championing his mentor's message. Learn, have fun, and make a difference. Bill, take it away.   0:00:41.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, thank you. Thank you, Andrew. It's an honor to be asked back. Many places don't.   0:00:48.7 Andrew Stotz: I really enjoyed our first discussion, and particularly towards the end of it, it got a little personal and emotional, and I appreciate that you shared your journey. That was amazing.   0:01:00.9 Bill Scherkenbach: Thank you. Thank you. It is personal.   0:01:05.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah.   0:01:05.4 Bill Scherkenbach: But today, along that wavelength, I brought some pictures or photos and letters and audios of my association with Dr. Deming. So, if you might bring them up, we can start the commenting.   0:01:27.9 Andrew Stotz: Wonderful. Well, hopefully you see a screen now up.   0:01:34.8 Bill Scherkenbach: Yes. Yep.   0:01:35.8 Andrew Stotz: Okay. And for the audience, just to let you know, for the listeners, we're going to show these and I'll try to explain a little bit about what we're talking about because you're not going to be able to see the pictures. But the first thing is the title is An Insider's View of Deming. Learn, have fun, make a difference. And we see a great picture on the left-hand side, and then I threw in a picture of a Lincoln Continental, which we're going to talk about later, which is kind of fun. But maybe you can take it from there, Bill.   0:02:07.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. Well, we can talk a little bit later on on that, but this is a picture of me and my wife, Mary Ellen, with Dr. Deming having fun. We were at a restaurant in Northville called Elizabeth's, and it's something that he enjoyed to do just about every evening.   0:02:31.3 Andrew Stotz: Great. Well, what a kickoff. So let's go to the next one. And you guys all look great in that photo.   0:02:38.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. This is a letter that I received from Dr. Deming back in May of '85, auspicious because the letter dated 13 May, that's my birthday. But for those who cannot read it, should I read the letter for you?   0:03:05.2 Andrew Stotz: Either you or I can read it for you. You tell me.   0:03:08.3 Bill Scherkenbach: Okay. Well, yeah. Why don't you read it?   0:03:10.9 Andrew Stotz: Okay. So, the letter is addressed to a particular person. It says, this is written by Dr. Deming, this acknowledges your kind letter of the 29th April. He that depends solely on statistical process control will be out of a job in three years. The record is clear, the record is clean, no exceptions. A whole program of improvement of quality and productivity is necessary, and it requires that top management learn what their job is. No part of the program will by itself suffice. Your letter does not describe your program, hence comment is difficult. I am happy to learn that Bill Scherkenbach will work with you. His achievements are renowned. He is excelled by nobody. I am sure that you will follow his guidance, not only while he is there with you, but from that then on out. I send best wishes and remain yours sincerely, W. Edwards Deming.   0:04:19.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Yes. I did spend a week with this organization, and as Deming said, and in many, many cases, the local management or local part of the organization get very enthusiastic, but the top management did not buy in. And so very little happened there, unfortunately.   0:04:53.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And I missed that the top right-hand corner in handwritten, it says Portland, 20 May 1985. Dear Bill, I neglected to hand this to you in San Francisco, W. E. D.   0:05:08.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. We went to, we. Dr. Deming and I were in San Francisco to meet with Shoichiro Toyoda and his wife. It was a social call. Shoichiro was in town. I don't know where his brother Tatsuro was. Tatsuro headed up NUMI, but Shoichiro was head of it all and was in the US. And wanted to just have a dinner with Dr. Deming. I'm embarrassingly cloudy. We met in a hotel and I can't tell you which one, but it was a nice, relaxing dinner. The English was a bit stilted, but Soichiro wanted to have a dinner with Dr. Deming and to express his appreciation.    0:06:31.3 Andrew Stotz: And he was a titan of industry at the time and in 1985 was really making a beachhead and a real expansion into the US market. Why did he want to meet with Dr. Deming? What was the connection there? Maybe for those that don't know.   0:06:55.2 Bill Scherkenbach: He was in town and Deming was nearby in town and just wanted to express his appreciation. I guess, Tatsuro, his brother wasn't there, and Tatsuro headed up NUMI, the partnership between GM and Toyota. But Shoichiro was there and just wanted to express appreciation.   0:07:35.1 Andrew Stotz: Great. Okay. So shall we continue on?   0:07:40.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. We have a Where is Quality Made? Famous talking from Dr. Deming, and hopefully the audio translates well.   0:07:55.3 Andrew Stotz: Yes, we'll see. Let's go.   0:07:59.5 Speaker 3: Where is quality made, Andrew, in the top management? The quality of the output of a company cannot be better unless quality is directed at the top. The people in the plant and in the service organization can only produce and test the design a product and service prescribed and designed by the management. Job security and job are dependent on management's foresight to design a product and service to entice customers and build a market.   0:08:31.6 Andrew Stotz: So where did that come from? And tell us more about that.   0:08:36.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, I'm not exactly sure which particular seminar or meeting that was, but over the years I have, have, we've made a number of audio recordings and videos of Dr. Deming in his meetings. And so we're looking to get them to the Deming Institute so they can process them and distribute.    0:09:11.8 Andrew Stotz: And why is this so important? He's talking about quality is made at the top where we can see many people think that quality is made by the worker. Do your best. Quality is your responsibility. Tell us more about why you wanted to talk about this.   0:09:32.9 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, it's a common, it's a common, very common mistake. He learned back in 1950, and I think I mentioned it in our first talk, that he gave a number of courses at Stanford during the war and people learned SPC. But when the war was over, over here, because management didn't buy in, nothing really happened. And he learned in his visit in 1950 when he was able, as we said, Mr. Koyanagi was able to get a meeting, a number of seminars done with top management in Japan after the war. And he thought that that, he saw that that actually did make a difference, that management was absolutely key. And in every one of his seminars, he would make, he would make  this point, that quality is made at the top.   0:10:54.0 Andrew Stotz: And what was interesting is that, of course, the Japanese senior management, were very receptive. It's many times the case that Deming may have interacted with some senior management at the top of a company, but they weren't receptive or willing to implement what he's talking about.   0:11:12.6 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. I think I mentioned last time that you need maybe a significant physical or logical or emotional event. And Ford lost a few billion dollars and was then looking, is there a better way? Japan lost a war, and the tradition over there is to perhaps listen to the conqueror. But MacArthur was very astute, my understanding, that you're not going to go in and replace the emperor and really mix the place up from what their culture is, which is very, very, very astute, in my opinion.   0:12:11.4 Andrew Stotz: Okay. So let's continue. And we see a document now up on the screen and a diagram. And maybe you can explain this one.   0:12:24.8 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. This is one of the foils, as he called them, that he wrote on his lantern, which is the overhead projector for all the young people. And making another very, very important point. And that is, he's quoting John Tukey, "the more you know what's wrong with a figure, the more useful it becomes." And he also, at various times, would, would, would talk about George Gallup. And Gallup was his friend. And George Gallup would say that unless you've gone through the slogging of collecting data, you shouldn't be too quickly using data or analyzing data. Because if you go to collect it, you know that some people just aren't there. And this is primarily survey stuff that Gallup was talking about. But Tukey was talking about anything. And Deming, along the way, with his learnings from Shewhart, what I've developed is based on Deming's questions come from theory, created a theory, question, data, action cycle, similar to a PDSA. And so that you need to know what the question was before you can use the data. And Dr. Deming's example was you can't use manganese dioxide for just anything. If it's really, really critical work, then you need to know what's in it that could contaminate it or interact with the other chemicals that you're trying to mix it with. Hugely important in chemistry, hugely important anywhere. And he talked, yes, we do have some audio from Dr. Deming talking about another analogy, on I can't even wash the table unless you tell me what you're going to use it for.   0:15:24.0 Andrew Stotz: I remember watching a video of this with him, with Robert Reich, I think it was, being interviewed. And it was such an impactful thing because I always thought you just tell people what to do and they go do it. And so let's listen to the audio. I'm going to play it now. One second.   0:15:42.6 Speaker 3: I can teach you how to wash a table, teach you how to rub, scrub, use brushes, rags. I'd be pretty good at it. But you know, I could not wash this table suppose you told me my job is to wash this table. I have no idea what you mean. There's no meaning to that. You must tell me what you're going to use the table for. I want to see a flow diagram, work moving. Here I am. My job is to wash this table. I do not understand what you mean. Wash this table. There's no meaning to that. I must know what you're going to use the table for, the next stage. What happened to the table, next stage, in the flow diagram? You want to put books on it? Well, it's clean enough for that now. To wash the table, I just go through it from just here, make a look at it. If I work a little, good enough. If I clean enough to eat off of it, well, it's good enough now. Or use it for an operating table? Oh, totally different now. Totally different. Now I scrub it with scalding water, top, bottom, legs, several times. I scrub the floor underneath for some radius. If I don't know the next stage, I cannot wash the table.   0:17:28.8 Andrew Stotz: Tell us your thoughts on that.   0:17:31.5 Bill Scherkenbach: Yep. Yep. Well, again, my theory, question, data, action cycle, if you're asking a question, you, you, if you can, and there are some confidential considerations, but if you can, you need to tell the people who are trying to answer the question what you're going to do with it. And so if you want the table washed, tell them you're going to just eat off of it or assemble microchips on it. If you, so that's the responsibility of the manager or anyone who is asking the question. So if you want to improve your questions, you got to go back up and think of, well, what's my underlying theory for the question? If this, then that, that prompts a question and the circle continues. And if you, the only reason to collect data is to take action. Both Eastern and Western philosophers absolutely have said that for centuries.   0:18:55.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. What's interesting, I didn't hear him say it in any other cases when he was talking about the next stage. I did hear him say before, like, what's it going to be used for? But you could hear when he's talking about the next stage, it's saying to me, that's saying the responsibility of management is looking at the overall system and communicating that and managing that, not trying to, you know, just give some blind instruction to one group, one team, one person without thinking about how it all interacts.   0:19:29.9 Bill Scherkenbach: Absolutely. Absolutely. But in the local aspect of, well, some question answers are not so local, but it's what the question asker's responsibility to let the people know what they're going to use the data for.   0:19:51.9 Andrew Stotz: Yep. Great lesson. All right. So now I've got a interesting picture up on the screen here. We have Dr. Deming and there's John Turkey, Tukey how do you say his last name?   0:20:05.6 Bill Scherkenbach: John Tukey, T-U-K-E-Y, yep. George Box and Sir David Cox. Anyone in the statistics arena knows them. We also had Stu Hunter and I believe John Hunter was there. They're not in the picture. I took the picture. But we were at Meadowbrook, which is, which is, on the old Dodge estate where Oakland University is near Detroit. And had a, we called the meeting to discuss the importance and the various perspectives of enumerative and analytic. Now, each of these men, Box, Tukey, and Cox, and all of them, all of us in the university, quite honestly, were brought up with enumerative methods. And so your standard distributional stuff and T-tests and whatever. And Deming and Tukey realized the importance of being able to not just take action on the sample, but the cause system, the system that caused the sample, or the process term, in process terms. So yeah, John Tukey was strangely enough, well, not strangely enough, but came up with a graphical method to look at data called the box and whiskers plot, with George Box standing next to him, but it's not that George didn't shave. But Tukey, very, very well known for graphical methods.   0:22:24.2 Bill Scherkenbach: George, well known for experimental methods. One of the Box, Hunter and Hunter book on statistical design of experiments is legendary. And Sir David Cox, logistic regression, which is hugely, strangely, well, not strangely enough, but huge nowadays, very important in AI, in how you would be looking to teach or have your model learn what it is that you would like them to learn to look for. So each of these gentlemen, very, very much a pinnacle of the statistical career. We were very, in a large company like Ford, we were very lucky to be able to make big meetings like this, or meetings with very influential people happen.   0:23:38.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. That's got to be amazing because I think when most of us listen to Dr. Deming and all that, we get a lot of what he says. But I would say that the statistical aspect and his depth of statistical knowledge is what many people, you know, it's hard for many Deming followers to deeply connect with that. And I think even myself, having, you know, read everything, listened to him, learned as much as I can, the best that I probably come up with is the idea that once I started understanding variation, one of the things I started realizing is that it's everywhere and it's in everything. And I didn't understand...   0:24:27.3 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, I still have the cartoon of a popcorn maker that was very surprised when he said, "They all popped at once." And his popcorn stand has blown up. So yeah, variation is everywhere, a lot or a little. And the thing is that you need to be able to take appropriate action. Sometime, I can remember, I can remember Bob Stemple asking me, "What did I think of the Shainin methods, Dorian Shainin, and technical approach?" And I wrote back to him and I said, "It's no better or worse than any of the other methods we don't use here at GM." The point is, all of these methods are better than Bop-A-Mole. And one of the things, well, one of the things that concerns me is that in these tool areas, and Deming's counsel to me long ago was he remembers the fights that the technical people, the statisticians in the quality profession, would have over which one is a tenth of a percent better or more effective doing this and that. And they would publicly argue, and Deming said, "Stop. It confuses management because they don't have a clue and they're staying away from all forms of quality." So, you, and I don't know the solution in this day and age where everyone is connected. But all of these methods have their strengths and weaknesses, but you have to have the savvy to figure out which one to use to help you improve. All of, each of these four were great teachers, and I have a comment from Dr. Deming on that.   0:27:11.7 Andrew Stotz: And just in wrapping this up, it's like, I think one of the things that you realize when you see this one and what you're talking about, what I realize is what a powerhouse Dr. Deming was in the area of statistics. And in some ways, it's kind of like seeing a rock star that you love to listen to and that rock star is great. And then one day on a Sunday, you go to the church and you see he's a reverend and a very solemn man who is a very, very devout devotee of Christianity and something. In some ways, that's the way I feel when I look at this, like, wow, just the roots of the depth of that is so fascinating.   0:28:03.2 Bill Scherkenbach: As you mentioned that, I'm thinking back, we were in Iowa and one of the professors there, and I forget his name, but you're right. Deming was held in awe and he was riding in the backseat. I'm driving and this professor is beside me and Dr. Deming said something and I said, how do you know? And the guy thought the world was going to come to an end that I dared ask the master, how did he know? Well, it, it, it ended up fine.   0:28:52.9 Andrew Stotz: That was the question he was trying to teach you to ask.   0:28:55.3 Bill Scherkenbach: Absolutely. You don't accept it at face value.   0:29:02.2 Andrew Stotz: So we got this other slide now. It says, what do you mean by a good teacher? Maybe you want to set this up and then I'll play the audio.   0:29:10.7 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. This was one of his favorite stories when he studied under Ronald Fisher, who is the big godfather of statistics, well, relatively modern stuff. So, Fisher was there at University College, as Deming will describe, and Deming wanted to know, and this is where a number of you will have recognized, he wanted to know what great minds were thinking about.   0:29:56.7 Andrew Stotz: All right. I'm going to play the clip right now.   0:30:00.2 Speaker 3: What do you mean by a good teacher? I taught with a man, head of a department. The whole 150 students spellbound him, teaching him what is wrong. And they loved it. What do you mean by a good teacher? Holding students spellbound around him. What do you mean teaching them something? I've had a number of great teachers. One was Professor Ronald Picker, University of London, University College I should say, part of the University of London. In London, 1936, no teaching could be worse. A lovable man, if you tried to work with him, could not read his writing, could stand in the way of it, room was dark and cold, he couldn't help the cold, maybe he could have put some light in the room, make mistakes, Professor Paul Ryder in the front row always helped him out. He'd come in with a piece of paper in his hand the ink not yet dry, talk about it. Wonder why the room was full of people from all over the world. I was one of them. Made a long trip, at my own expense, to learn, and we learned. We learned what that great mind was thinking about, what to him were great or important problems today.   0:31:45.9 Speaker 3: And we saw the methods that he used for solutions. We saw what this great mind was thinking about. His influence will be known the world over for a long, long time. He would rated zero by most people that rate teachers. Another teacher that I had was Ernest Crown at Yale, very poor teacher. We'd get together afterwards, some of us, and try to figure out what he was teaching us. He was not even charismatic the way Ronald Fisher was, but we learned. We learned what that great mind was thinking about, what he thought was the problem. We learned about perturbation. His work on lunar theory will be a classic for generations. We learned. Worst teacher there could be, but we learned.   0:32:49.0 Andrew Stotz: Wow. Tell us more about that.   0:32:53.6 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, he also had a similar story because, from great teachers at NYU, and that's where I first met him and learned from him. He was my teacher, but NYU had a, they had nominations for great teachers. And Deming was able to convince, and I forget who was the, Ernest Kurnow was the dean, and he convinced the dean to wait 10 years before you survey any of the students. And the question was, did any teacher you have really make a difference in your life? And he was able to get that done or get that process agreed to, and it was for the better because in, and I don't want to... I mean, every generation has said this new generation is going to hell in a handbasket, I mean, that for forever. That's nothing new. But what's popular, it's great to be entertained, and as he said, teaching what is wrong. And so did someone make a difference in your life? And not surprisingly, Deming was one of the people selected as a great teacher from NYU Graduate Business School.   0:35:15.4 Andrew Stotz: So that's your review after 50 years after the course, huh?   0:35:21.6 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah.   0:35:24.5 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And so the point is that, let's separate popularity from original thinking. And also he highlighted the idea that some teachers may not come across very organized, very polished. They may need assistance to help them clarify what they're trying to get across. But just because they're kind of a mess in that way, doesn't mean they're not thinking very deeply. In fact, it may be a sign that they're thinking very deeply about it.   0:36:01.9 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. Now, again, remember, and I know it's a broad brush, but Deming was eminently logical. Crosby would have loved it. Wine and cheese parties showed Juran more physical. And so I think Deming's preferences there, the key to his statement is teaching what was wrong. Some people get excited in class for a variety of reasons, but the key is what are you teaching? The method depends on the ability of the teacher to connect to the students and actually teach. So it gets you back to physical, logical, and emotional. But for Deming, Fisher struck a chord with him.   0:37:09.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And I think for the listener, the viewer, think about some teacher that really made an impact on you. And it could be that there was a teacher that was able to connect with you emotionally.   0:37:25.2 Bill Scherkenbach: Absolutely.   0:37:26.7 Andrew Stotz: So there's different ways. But I think of Dr. Deming wasn't a teacher of mine in university, but at the age of 24 to learn from him was definitely a teacher that left me with the most to think about. And I would say there was one other teacher, a guy named Greg Florence that was at Long Beach City College who taught me argumentation and debate. And he also really encouraged me to join the debate team, which I really couldn't because I didn't have time because I didn't have money and I had to work. But he really saw something in me, and now I love to teach debate and helping young people construct arguments. And so for all of us, I think this idea of what do you mean by a good teacher is a great discussion. So, love it. Love it. Well, we got another picture now. Speaking of teaching, the City University of New York is in the backdrop. Maybe you can set this one up.   0:38:27.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. This was a one-day, maybe one and a half with some pre-work, but essentially a one-day meeting in New York that was able to gather some of the top educators in the US, the head of the schools in California. There were some folks from Chicago. We had, as I mentioned, Albert Shanker, who was head of the American Federation of Teachers, was sitting right beside me. Other teacher organizations and education organizations. And we got together for a very meaningful thing. We got together to try and determine what is the aim of education in America. And it turned out that everyone was looking for their mic time, and we couldn't even agree on an aim for education in America. And if you can't agree on an aim, your system is everyone doing their best, and it's all, there's not too much progress, except locally or suboptimally.   0:40:02.3 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. That's a good illustration of the concept of best efforts. Dr. Deming often talked about best efforts. And here you're saying, without an aim, everybody's going to just go in their own direction. And it reminds me of a story I tell people in relation to management, which was that I had a really great boss many years ago in the field of finance research in the stock market. He was very brilliant, and he hired really good analysts. I was surrounded by the best. But he never once really brought us together to say, this is our aim. And so what ended up happening was that each person did their best, which was very good as an individual, but as a group, we never were able to really make an impact. And I explain that to my students nowadays, that I believe it's because he didn't set an aim and bring us together for that.   0:41:09.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Now, one of the, I mean, one of the things Deming very predictably talked about, as I recall, is the grades and gold stars, which were part of his forces of destruction. And the education is the way we approach education here was part of that, even before people get to get beat further down by corporate and other organizational stuff. And the grading and gold stars, I don't know how much that was, that criticism was appreciated. But everyone had a chance to talk. And in my opinion, not too many people listened.   0:42:09.3 Andrew Stotz: Now, the next one is titled Mongolian Rat. What the heck, Bill?   0:42:17.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, this is part of teaching what good teaching would be. You've got to listen. It's one of my favorite stories of his.   0:42:30.3 Andrew Stotz: Well, let's roll the tape.   0:42:33.3 Speaker 3: I met a professor in New York. He was a surgeon, professor of surgery. He did gave out some marble, had plenty. One student in the class, he told them describe the surgical procedure on the jaw in which a certain breed of Mongolian wrap was very helpful. The rat, the flesh right down the bone cleaner than a surgeon could do it. Very important wrap. Describe it in details to the listeners and students. On examination, one, the question was to describe the surgical procedure by use of the Mongolian rat. Plenty of students gave him back the same marbles that he doled out. He described it in exactly the same words that he described it. He flunked them all, all the time. One of them said, my dear professor, I have searched the literature. I've inquired around in hospitals and other teachers, I can find no trace of any such procedure. I think that you were loading us. He laughed. He had to take a new examination. He gave them back the same marbles he doled out to them. He wanted to think.   0:43:55.0 Andrew Stotz: Marbles. I haven't heard that expression. Tell us a little bit more about what you want us to take from this.   0:44:02.6 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, I think it's pretty self-explanatory. His comment on education that teachers are handing out marbles and pieces of information, not necessarily knowledge, and the testing, you're expected to give them back what the teacher said instead of how can you process it and put it in the context of other things, as well as, I mean, maybe not in the early grades, but in the later ones, you need to be able to look at various perspectives to see who has this opinion and that opinion. And unfortunately, today, that discourse is nicely shut down.   0:45:07.3 Andrew Stotz: At first, when I heard him saying marbles, I thought he was kind of using marbles as a way of kind of saying pulling their legs, but now I understand that he was trying to say that he's giving something and then the students give it back.   0:45:24.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   0:45:26.0 Andrew Stotz: Okay. Mongolian rats.   0:45:31.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Yep. Yep. So we go from learning to having fun, and here's a picture of our statistical methods office at Ford.   0:45:48.1 Andrew Stotz: And you're sitting in a sleigh? Is that what's happening there?   0:45:50.0 Bill Scherkenbach: We're sitting in a sleigh, yes, at Greenfield Village, which is where the Henry Ford Museum is, and it happened to snow, so we've got the, we've got the horse-drawn sleigh, and I was listening to your first interview of me, and I want to deeply apologize. It's Harry Artinian, and so from the left, you've got Ed Baker and Bill Craft and Pete Jessup, Harry Artinian, Narendra Sheth, Dr. Deming, Debbie Rawlings, Ann Evans, my secretary, uh ooooh, and the gentleman who worked with Jim Bakken, and then me. So, we were working and decided to have a good lunch.   0:46:58.5 Andrew Stotz: And it's a horse-drawn sleigh. And I wasn't sure if you were pulling our leg here because you said, I'm second from the far right. First from the far right, to me, looks like the horse.   0:47:09.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Yes. That's the horse's ass. Yep.   0:47:14.6 Andrew Stotz: That's a big one.   0:47:16.1 Bill Scherkenbach: It is what it is.   0:47:18.7 Andrew Stotz: Yep. Okay. Next one. Who's Sylvester?   0:47:22.3 Bill Scherkenbach: Sylvester is my son's cat. And this is one of the times Dr. Deming was in my home. And he sat down in my office at my home. And Sylvester saw a good lap and he jumped up on it and took it. And as I said, I couldn't tell who was purring louder. They both were content.   0:47:52.7 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. That looks beautiful.   0:47:55.4 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. It was very, very peaceful. Another fun thing, after a long day of work at Ford, we would go to Luigi's restaurant in Dearborn. I think there was a Dearborn Marriott, a big hotel. I don't know if it's there now. But that's Larry Moore, director of quality, next to Dr. Deming and me. I had a mustache back then.   0:48:30.4 Andrew Stotz: Yes. And we all loved soft serve ice cream.   0:48:34.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Soft serve ice cream. Yep.   0:48:38.0 Andrew Stotz: Yep. All right. Star-Spangled Banner.   0:48:40.9 Bill Scherkenbach: Yep. Now we're at one of my earlier houses in Northville. And Dr. Deming had written a new tune for the Star-Spangled Banner because it was an old English drinking song, Anna, the what? The Anacrocronistic Society. And he thought it was just too bawdy. I mean, you're an unsingable, except if you're drinking. So he rewrote the music for the Star-Spangled Banner. I have a copy of it here. But he, my son Matthew, my oldest son Matthew, we had just gotten one of those first Macs from Apple, Macintosh. And it had a very elementary music thing. So he put the notes that Deming had handwritten. And we put it in there and it played the tune. And so Deming was playing on our piano the Star-Spangled Banner.   0:50:04.7 Andrew Stotz: So he had a musical talent.   0:50:10.8 Bill Scherkenbach: Oh, yeah. He was a very serious study of, a student of music. Very much so. He wrote a complete Mass. He was a high church Episcopalian. And he wrote a complete Mass of the Holy Spirit with all parts. So, very much a student of music.   0:50:41.8 Andrew Stotz: And how did his religious beliefs, like Episcopalian, as you mentioned, how did that come across? Was he a person who talked about that? Was he a person that didn't talk about that? Like, how did that come across?   0:50:59.2 Bill Scherkenbach: It was more of a private thing. But then again, on every one of his books, he would begin a chapter with some quotation from different books. And many of them were from the Bible. I can remember one time in London, I'm Catholic, and so we were celebrating the St. Peter and Paul that Sunday. But he was in London and he was at St. Paul's and they weren't giving Peter any traction. But he looked up and he said, yep, you're right. It was both of those saint days.   0:51:58.3 Andrew Stotz: All right. Next one, Drive Out Fear.   0:52:01.8 Bill Scherkenbach: Oh, yeah. This was Professor Arnold. And we were having lunch in the Ford dining room, one of the Ford dining rooms. And Dr. Deming wasn't too happy of what Professor Arnold was talking about. And Professor Arnold didn't look too happy either. So, I framed the picture and put Drive Out Fear underneath it and hung it in my office. And Deming came and looked at it and smiled.   0:52:46.5 Andrew Stotz: And what was the background on Professor Arnold? And in this case, did they have opposing views or was it a particular thing or what was it that was...   0:52:58.4 Bill Scherkenbach: I don't remember the particular conversation, but Professor Arnold was head of the statistics department at Oakland University. And Ford had an agreement with Oakland University that we established a master's degree in statistics, according to Dr. Deming's viewpoint on enumerative and analytic. And no, he was very, very capable gentleman. I mean, one of the things Dr. Deming mentioned to me is if the two of us agreed all the time, one of us is redundant. So there were always discussions. This is just a snapshot in time.   0:53:52.3 Andrew Stotz: I love that quote, that one of us is redundant. That's powerful, powerful.   0:53:59.4 Bill Scherkenbach: Absolutely. Yep. This is another having fun after learning in... There were a number of restaurants we went to. He particularly liked Elizabeth's,   0:54:16.1 Andrew Stotz: And how was their relationship? How did he treat your lovely wife?   0:54:22.5 Bill Scherkenbach: Oh, I mean, very lovingly. I mean, I don't know how to describe it, but one of the family.   0:54:36.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. He seemed from my observation, like a true gentleman.   0:54:42.5 Bill Scherkenbach: Absolutely. Absolutely.   0:54:46.0 Andrew Stotz: Well, here we come to the Lincoln that we started off with. This is a great picture too.   0:54:51.4 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. That's a picture I had. It wasn't a Hasselblad, but it was a two and a quarter frame. And I had black and white film in it, but this is one of a number of pictures I took of him at the Cosmos Club. I think it was a very good picture. And in any event, it was blending learning and having fun.   0:55:19.7 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And the Cosmos Club was near his house?   0:55:22.5 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. Well, it was depending on who drove. I mean, it was just, it was down a few blocks and then a number of blocks on Massachusetts Avenue. I enjoyed the drive from his house because you'd pass the Naval Observatory, which for years was the home of the chief of naval operations here. But a few decades, a few, I don't know how long ago, the vice president pulled rank on him. And so the Naval Observatory, beautiful, beautiful old house. So, the vice president lives there now. And a lot of people think Massachusetts Avenue in that area is Embassy Row. So you're passing a number of embassies on the way. And the Cosmos Club, anyone can look up. I mean, it's by invitation, members only, and Nobel laureates and Pulitzer Prize winners and a very distinguished membership, let's say.   0:56:39.3 Andrew Stotz: Here was another one, Making a Difference with Don Peterson.   0:56:43.0 Bill Scherkenbach: Yep. Yep. We're, we're, this is one of the meetings we had with Don. And it wasn't this meeting, but we were in one of them. Okay. You have it on the right there. That we periodically would have, Dr. Deming and I would have breakfast with Jim Bakken in what was known as the Penthouse at Ford. There are 12 floors, and then there was the 13th and 14th, which were private quarters, essentially. And so we were having breakfast one morning and finishing breakfast, and I'm walking a little bit ahead, and I run ahead and press the elevator button to go down one floor, and the door opens, and there's Henry Ford II in cowboy belt buckle and boots, no hat. He's going to a board meeting, he says, and Jim shied away, said, "Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Ford." He said, "Shut up, Jim, get in here." And so we got in the elevator, and it was the small elevator. And so we're back to back, belly to belly, and Jim introduces Dr. Deming to Mr. Ford, and Ford said, "I've heard of you, Dr. Deming. God, we really need your help." And Deming had the presence of saying, "I heard of you too, Mr. Ford." It was the longest one-floor elevator ride I've ever had in my life.   0:58:49.1 Andrew Stotz: That's fascinating. All right. Next one, talking with workers.   0:58:54.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Yep. Yep. He made it a point. And this is a fine line, because you want to be able to have workers say, how, how, are they able to take pride in their work? And are there any problems and all of that? But you don't want to be in a position of then going to management and telling them because of fear in the organization. So, Dr. Deming was very good at listening and getting people to talk about their jobs and their ability to take joy and, well, pride in their work. So we had many, many meetings, different places. And this next one is with the Ford Batavia plant, I think.   1:00:01.2 Andrew Stotz: Yep.   1:00:02.4 Bill Scherkenbach: Yeah. We're riding on the tractors and having a good time.   1:00:11.3 Andrew Stotz: Who's driving?   1:00:14.2 Bill Scherkenbach: The plant manager, Ron Kaseya, was driving.   1:00:16.9 Andrew Stotz: Okay.   1:00:17.9 Bill Scherkenbach: And so I absolutely do not recall what we were laughing at, but we were having a good time. And the Batavia transaxle plant, a number of people will recognize as where Ford, it really made the point that doing better than spec is really what the job is. And it's a very powerful video that's been out there and people would recognize it as well, because we were producing the exact same transaxle in Mazda. And Mazda was influenced a lot of by Genichi Taguchi and looked to reduce variation around the nominal and not just be happy that we made spec. And John Betty, who was head up of powertrain operations and then went to the Department of Defense as assistant secretary of defense for procurement, I think, because of the quality expertise. Betty is in the front of the video saying he's absolutely convinced that this is a superior way to look at manufacturing, to look at the management of any process. You want to get your customers to brag, not just not complain.   1:02:10.3 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. Courage.   1:02:11.8 Bill Scherkenbach: And all of this takes courage. And especially in his seminars in London say, the Brits had the advantage. You guys can take courage every day. We can't get that in the US anymore. Or it's very rare to be able to buy it here.   1:02:36.3 Andrew Stotz: For the listeners, there's a logo of the John Courage beer, premium beer.   1:02:45.7 Bill Scherkenbach: Yes. Yes. It's an amber pills.   1:02:49.8 Andrew Stotz: Okay.   1:02:52.4 Bill Scherkenbach: And last but not least, well, not last, but we're looking for, and I ran across this quote from Yogi Berra, and it's very applicable right now. And Yogi Berra said, I never said... Well, what did he say?   1:03:19.2 Andrew Stotz: Never said most of the things I said.   1:03:21.4 Bill Scherkenbach: Most of the things I could have said. I never said most of the things I said. Yeah. And every day online, I see people saying Dr. Deming said this, and he said that. And if he did, I've never heard him say it. And not that I've heard him say everything. But if he did say something like, if it's not measurable, you can't manage it. He would have followed it with, that's not right. The unknown and unknowable. And so you've got a lot of people misunderstanding what Dr. Deming said. And you've got to go with, I never said most of the things that I said.   1:04:24.0 Andrew Stotz: Well, that's the great thing about this discussion is that we're getting it from the horse's mouth, someone that was there listening and being a part of it.   1:04:32.1 Bill Scherkenbach: Well, I'm glad you saw the other end of the horse.   1:04:37.5 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. So, I'm going to close out this by just sharing a little personal connection. And that is, I'm showing a picture of me in my 1963 suicide door Lincoln Continental, which I owned for 10 years in beautiful Bangkok, Thailand. And much like being kind of wild taking a ride to the Cosmos Club with Dr. Deming driving his Lincoln Continental, you could imagine how odd it looked seeing this American guy driving this 1963 Lincoln Continental on the streets of Bangkok. But I just thought I would share that just to have some fun. So, yeah.   1:05:14.3 Bill Scherkenbach: That's beautiful. Absolutely. Yeah. I didn't think the streets were that wide.   1:05:22.1 Andrew Stotz: It gets stuck in traffic, that's for sure. But wow, there's so many things that we covered. I mean, I just really, really enjoyed that trip down memory lane. Is there anything you want to share to wrap it up?   1:05:36.1 Bill Scherkenbach: No. As I said, our last conversation, we've just scratched the surface. There's so much, so much more to talk about and preserve, I think.   1:05:48.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed it.   1:05:52.1 Bill Scherkenbach: I have done my best.   1:05:53.6 Andrew Stotz: Yes, you have. You have. I've enjoyed it, and I'm sure the listeners and the viewers will enjoy it too. So, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I just want to thank you for taking the time to pull that together and to walk us through it. And for listeners out there, remember to go to Deming.org to continue your journey. And of course, go to LinkedIn to find Bill and reach out and share your interpretations of what we went through. And maybe you have a story that you'd like to share also. So, this is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'm going to leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. And that is, “people are entitled to joy in work."

The Rev. Sarah Phelps preaches on the eighth Sunday after Pentecost.

John 17:20-23Jesus prayed, “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” Artificial Intelligence is not your friend—it's the Tower of Babel. That was the title of the first article I saw this week while preparing for today. Another headline from a Jewish student paper read: AI: The Modern Tower of Babel. A theme was emerging. Faith publications and organizations are writing incessantly about AI and faith, the church, spirituality, and more. Then Pastor Mark told me to listen to a segment from 1A this week about AI and faith. It was fascinating—and a little frightening.I'll be honest, I thought I had pretty good job security against AI and robots… until I listened to that segment. I learned about Pastors.AI, a chatbot trained for a specific church using sermons and resources from real pastors. Meaning, you could upload all the videos and manuscripts from Pastor Mark's sermons over the past 24 years, and the chatbot would generate answers to questions, write sermons, and craft Bible studies—just like he would! You could have your own Pastor Mark in your pocket.Then there's Gloo—AI evangelism. Gloo claims it helps churches grow by tracking digital interactions, managing prayer requests, responding to texts, and making new connections.Entire denominations are diving into AI. If you're Catholic, you can't use just any faith-based AI, so you turn to Ask Father Justin. Apparently, a problem arose where some people preferred confessing to Father Justin instead of their priest. Imagine that… And it's not just Catholics who do AI.Episcopalians have Cathy—Church Answers That Help You. Right on the Diocese of Lexington's homepage, you can talk with Cathy and learn anything you want from the Episcopalian perspective.But what good is the church or denominations if you can just chat with Jesus yourself, AI Jesus that is? If you try that one let me know. So is AI a threat to the church? Or a tool to help it grow? Is it humans trying to become like God, or is it a resource that makes God more accessible? Is this software a reversal of Genesis 1 where we make God in our image, one chatbot at a time?Is it a new Tower of Babel—our attempt to code our way to God? How might this ancient story help us with such questions? More importantly, what might it tell us about Jesus?The Tower of Babel is mysterious. It's short, raises more questions than it answers, and isn't referenced anywhere else in the Bible. Like the other stories in Genesis 1–11, it's an origin story; one that tries to explain how different nations and languages came to be. Linguists agree though, this is not how languages came about. It much more complicated. As is this story. To read it as only an explanation of languages or cultures misses what all it reveals about God.It's also the origin story of Babylon. Thousands of years ago, Babylon made a major technological advance: the brick. They could take bricks, butter'em with bitumen, stack them on top of each other and build. So the people said, “Let's build a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and make a name for ourselves, or else we'll be scattered across the earth.” That one sentence is full of so much irony. The tower didn't reach heaven. In fact, God had to come down to earth just to see it. And when God finds it, God isn't pleased. Why exactly? We're not told. What we do know is that God confused their language and scattered all the people—the very thing they were trying to avoid.That question—why did God do this?—has led to many interpretations, some with harmful consequences.One interpretation says God scattered the people because mixing cultures, ethnicities, and languages is bad. That view has been used to justify segregation in this country and apartheid in South Africa.But I don't read this story as the scattering being a consequence or punishment. God said twice “to fill the earth and subdue”. Well you can't do that if people are all in one place. So scattering wasn't punishment - it was the plan. As were the different languages and ethnicities. Diversity was God's design from the start.Another view is that God is suspicious of cities. So, urban life must be prideful or ungodly, while small-town life is holier and safer. But that doesn't align with the broader biblical story. God called Jonah to Nineveh, a powerful city, because God cared for its people and animals. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem under his wing. Revelation envisions a new heaven and earth—with a new Jerusalem at its center. God is not suspicious of cities, but is as present there as anywhere else in the world.And perhaps most pertinent today: some believe God scattered humanity because they were too advanced. Such a reading makes folks skeptical of scientific progress and technological advances like, well, Artificial Intelligence. But I don't think God was all that concerned about some bricks stacked a couple hundred feet in the air. Nor is God all that impressed with our towers of today: our advances, systems, or political structures. And I am pretty sure God isn't wringing hands over Artificial Intelligence like everyone else seems to be.What I think God is concerned about is any human attempt to work our way up to God, any effort to work out our own salvation. And we try all the time. We think: “If I just do enough good,” “If I go to church enough,” “If I text with AI Jesus,” or “complete my Bible AI devotional”—then I'll get to God. All our technological advances will undoubtedly do a lot of good. But if we think software can save us, it's no different than thinking a tower can take us to heaven. The tower never reaches. We can't code our way up to God.But the good news of our faith is that we don't have to go up to God because God came down to us in Jesus Christ. And through that person, that real, divine, tangible person, do we and all the world receive the grace and forgiveness we could never create for ourselves, no matter how advanced we get. Through that person, all the scattered people of the world might be one in him. That's what, or really who, holds this community together. We don't all hold the same views, or come from the same backgrounds, or see the world in the same way. Sometimes it probably seems like we aren't even speaking the same language. And yet, it is the grace and forgiveness and mercy of Jesus that binds us together as one.This A.I stuff isn't going away anytime soon. It certainly has it's dangers. At the same time it is a technological tool and the church has always engaged with these tools. When the printing press was invited, the church made tracts and pamphlets. When radio came around, preachers broadcasted their sermons across the airwaves. TVs gave rise to the televangelist. And today nearly everyone watches a service online before they ever step foot through our doors. So it should be no surprise that christians, churches, pastors, denominations, are using A.I. in all sorts of ways. But like any tool, it can be misused and lead to harm, like thinking it can somehow take us up to God, as an ancient tower once tried. Or that it can bring Jesus down to us. Yet it can't do that either, because Jesus came down and is here already. Here at the table where we get our fill of his forgiveness in bread and wine. Here in the waters of baptism where we are washed by his grace. Here in your neighbor, who reflects the very image of God. By his coming down to us, Jesus made his love tangible through these physical signs of his grace that he freely gives to us. And that's something A.I. can never give. Amen.

Erica Ridderman, Minister for Children, Youth, and Family Formation, preaches on the seventh Sunday after Pentecost.

The Rev. Javier Almendárez-Bautista preaches on the fifth Sunday after Pentecost.

The Prayers of the People are a staple in the Episcopalian service, but they're also reminiscent of a “Choose Your Own Adventure” book, with forms and collects abounding. We're here to discuss the many forms that intercessory prayer can take and why it matters to pray in unison for our world and for each other. We break down the structure of the prayers, discuss why we pray for government officials, share our personal favorite prayers, and entertain a riveting sidebar discussion on “intinction”. Please excuse Annie's audio this episode, it was a little wonky for some reason! Follow us on Instagram: @average.episcopalian Sign up for our monthly Substack newsletter! averageepiscopalian.substack.com More questions? Send us an email: average.episcopalian@gmail.com

Deacon Nathaniel Lee H.K. McKinney preaches on the fourth Sunday after Pentecost.

The Rev. Candy Snively preaches on the third Sunday after Pentecost.

I speak with John Magerus about his book "James DeKoven: Biography of a Famous yet Forgotten Man." DeKoven was a 19th century Episcopalian clergyman and educator for whom Racine's DeKoven Center is named.

The Rev. Javier Almendárez-Bautista preaches on the second Sunday after Pentecost.

WILL THE “NO KINGS” MOVEMENT SAVE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY? At GREEP Gathering #227 we mourn the horrific MAGA murders in Minnesota with St. Cloud resident HEDY TRIPP. We look in growing detail at the “Christian Nationalist” movement with radio host LYNNE FEINERMAN, who discusses ANDRA WATKINS & her great work on right-wing cults. From Indivisible we hear MIMI “SPRINGTIME” about her Episcopalian roots & their warped Evangelical off-shoots.   A wonderful award-winning poem from DANIELLA GIUSEPPE underscores the larger female hippocampus which provides more empathy than men can command. From Columbus, Ohio, we hear SANDY BOLZENIUS reporting about the various marches ranging from NO KINGS to Pride to Doo Dah & more.  In Santa Monica, Dr. NANCY NIPARKO reports on functional brain studies showing large hippocampi among taxi drivers, along with other contributions of her great genius Nancy gives us a pretty specific laundry list on the development of the brains in the Republican v. Democratic skulls. There were 8k people at La Palma Park in Anaheim, according to DAVID SONNEBORN, who's pushing SB42 for public financing of California elections. From Oakland we hear from SUZIE GOLDMACHER about 10k marchers there & in other Bay Area cities. We hear in general that QR codes were not distributed at these massive rallies, but that there is a NO KINGS web site people can connect to (https://www.nokings.org/ ).. From STEVE CARUSO we hear of the many hundreds who marched in protest in rural Licking County, Ohio.  From Los Angeles we hear from TERRY GOODMAN-MANPEARL who was shot in the hand by the LAPD while doing jail support in the streets. Renowned activist JAN GOODMAN (Terry's mom) emphasizes the power of organizing at the Pacifica Network as well as in the streets. From Tucson BILL YOHEY reports on some great progressive marching. including more than 2k folks all over this small Arizona desert community. From TATANKA BRICCA we get a heads-up about the ICE Gestapo.   From Austin we hear from PERLY GATES's original song    TV legend DAVID SALTMAN tells us about the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to produce a NO KINGS documentary for the ages.   From southern Ohio VINA COLLEY warns about the horrific Big Bad Bill now looming in the US House.   For more about Pacifica's New Day we hear from MYLA RESON & JAN GOODMAN.   And we prepare to gather again next week for more ELECTION PROTECTION & SOLARTOPIAN POWER.  

The Rev. Sarah Phelps preaches on Trinity Sunday.

In this episode of Crossing Faiths, John Pinna talks with Joseph Yoo, an Episcopalian pastor, about a wide array of topics, beginning with their shared, humorous appreciation for professional wrestling, which serves as a recurring touchstone for discussions on belief, community, and the nature of fandom. Yoo shares his journey from a Methodist upbringing (his father was a preacher) to becoming an Episcopalian priest and his current work planting a new, inclusive church in a former bakery in Texas, emphasizing the importance of belonging before believing. They explore themes of faith deconstruction, the interpretation of scripture (using Jonah as an example), the challenges and nuances of church leadership, and outreach in the modern world, all interwoven with personal anecdotes and lighthearted banter about cultural differences in religious practice and the human need for meaning. Joseph Yoo is the priest of Mosaic Episcopal church in Houston. You can visit https://linktr.ee/JosephYoo to connect with him.

Covered a few bookmarks in X I had saved, including an Episcopalian "priestess" who is confused on the Trinity and transgenderism, then an X account called The Classical Ponderer who ripped into me as a coward and a vulture. Then finished with some thoughts on yesterday's announcement of the cancellation of the G3 Conference in Atlanta and the attendant issues. Don't forget the debate on Thursday, 8pm EDT on the Bible Dinger's channel on YouTube!

The Episcopal Church announces that it is terminating its partnership with the government to resettle refugees after Trump's South African move. Meanwhile, a mother in Deerfield, Illinois has revealed that school officials forced young girls to change into their gym clothes in front of a trans-identified male student.Thank you for supporting our sponsors that make The Dana Show possible…Relief Factorhttps://relieffactor.com OR CALL 1-800-4-RELIEFTurn the clock back on pain with Relief Factor. Get their 3-week Relief Factor Quick Start for only $19.95 today! Goldcohttps://DanaLikesGold.com My personal gold company - get your GoldCo 2025 Gold & Silver Kit. PLUS, you could qualify for up to 10% in BONUS silver.Byrnahttps://byrna.com/danaGet your hands on the new compact Byrna CL. Visit Byrna.com/Dana receive 10% off. Patriot Mobilehttps://patriotmobile.com/DanaDana's personal cell phone provider is Patriot Mobile. Get a FREE MONTH of service code DANA.HumanNhttps://humann.comSupport your metabolism and healthy blood sugar levels with Superberine by HumanN. Find it now at your local Sam's Club next to SuperBeets Heart Chews.  KelTechttps://KelTecWeapons.comSee the third generation of the iconic SUB2000 and the NEW PS57 - Keltec Innovation & Performance at its best.All Family Pharmacyhttps://AllFamilyPharmacy.com/DanaCode Dana10 for 10% off your entire order.PreBornhttps://Preborn.com/DanaWith your help, we can hit the goal of 1,000 ultrasounds this month! Just dial #250 and say “Baby”. Ancient Nutritionhttp://ancientnutrition.com/DanaCollagen and wellness, powered by Ancient Nutrition—get 25% off your first order with promo code DANA.Home Title Lockhttps://hometitlelock.com/danaProtect your home! Get a FREE title history report + 14 days of coverage with code DANA. Check out the Million Dollar TripleLock—terms apply.Ground Newshttps://Groundnews.com/DANAGet 40% off the unlimited access Vantage plan.

What happens when you stand at the crossroads where the sacred meets the secular, where your identity refuses to fit into neat binaries, and where faith seeks understanding in the midst of doubt? In this deeply personal conversation, Episcopal priest and pioneering womanist theologian Kelly Brown Douglas returns to the podcast to explore theology as a lived experience, not abstract speculation. We dive into her powerful concept of "crossroads theology" – that stable, definite space where the blues singer performs both pain and praise, where Black and Episcopalian identity refuse to be bifurcated, and where God meets us in our full complexity. Kelly unpacks how the dangerous narratives of respectability and white supremacy create false binaries that diminish our humanity, and how Jesus's own crossroads moment challenges our comfortable Christianity. From her nightly prayers on her knees to calling the names of deported families, from finding God in resistance movements to wrestling with faith after Trayvon Martin's death, Kelly shows us what it means to do theology from "the complicated and sometimes contradictory spaces of our living." She reminds us that Christianity has a crucifixion at its center – and it's high time we act like it. Plus, we celebrate Kelly's upcoming appearance at Theology Beer Camp 2025, where she'll be bringing this transformative theological vision to 600 nerdy friends ready to do theology while day-drinking in a sanctuary. Trust me, you don't want to miss this conversation about finding resurrection hope in our Gethsemane moments. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube Theology Beer Camp is a unique three-day conference that brings together of theology nerds and craft beer for a blend of intellectual engagement, community building, and fun. This event features a lineup of well-known podcasters, scholars, and theology enthusiasts who come together to "nerd out" on theological topics while enjoying loads of fun activities. Guests this year include John Dominic Crossan, Kelly Brown Douglas, Philip Clayton, Stacey Floyd-Thomas, Jeffery Pugh, Juan Floyd-Thomas, Andy Root, Grace Ji-Sun Kim, Noreen Herzfeld, Reggie Williams, Casper ter Kuile, and more! Get info and tickets here. Rev. Canon Kelly Brown Douglas is the Canon Theologian at the Cathedral. In 2017, she was named Dean of Episcopal Divinity School at Union Theological Seminary in New York City, and in 2019, she was appointed to the Bill and Judith Moyers Chair in Theology at Union. You can listen to her previous visit to the podcast here: Resurrection Hope & A Future Where Black Lives Matter Upcoming Online Class:⁠ Rediscovering the Spirit: Hand-Raisers, Han, & the Holy Ghost⁠ "⁠Rediscovering the Spirit: Hand-Raisers, Han, and the Holy Ghost⁠" is an open-online course exploring the dynamic, often overlooked third person of the Trinity. Based on Grace Ji-Sun Kim's groundbreaking work on the Holy Spirit (pneumatology), this class takes participants on a journey through biblical foundations, historical developments, diverse cultural perspectives, and practical applications of Spirit theology. ⁠As always, this class is donation-based, including 0. To get class info and sign up, head over here. ⁠ _____________________ ⁠⁠⁠Hang with 40+ Scholars & Podcasts and 600 people at Theology Beer Camp 2025 (Oct. 16-18) in St. Paul, MN. ⁠⁠⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠ production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 80,000 other people by joining our⁠⁠⁠ Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 45 classes at ⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠Theology Beer Camp | St. Paul, MN | October 16-18, 2025⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

An Historic Altadena Church, Lost to the Eaton Fire, Begins the Long Journey to Resurrection  The Eaton Fire reached deep into the sanctuaries of Altadena's faith community. It lost over a dozen places of worship: Baptist, Episcopalian, Jewish, Methodist, Muslim, and Evangelical Christian. There's a lot of talk now about how and when people can rebuild their homes in Altadena. But how to rebuild a church, mosque or synagogue?  And how do faith leaders keep their congregations together in the meantime? Reporter Steven Cuevas takes us to one of the largest churches in this community.  On Catalina Island, A Resilient Swimmer Finds Freedom in Open Water Our series on resilience continues with ultra-ironman athlete Suzy Degazon. Watching her compete, it's hard to believe she was once so weak her heart had trouble beating. But Degazon battled an eating disorder for many years. It was so severe, doctors told her family she would likely die from it. But she battled back, and these days, she's a scuba instructor on Catalina Island, a dream job in a dream location. Reporter Lusen Mendel caught up with Degazon as she  took a sunrise swim in the ocean. A Scientist's Fight to Save Catalina Island's Plant Biodiversity Catalina Island is known for its scenic hiking trails, campsites, beaches and for being a popular tourist destination for cruise ships. But it's also known for its biodiversity — the island is home to more than 60 different native plants and animals. As plant manager for the Catalina Island Conservancy, Kevin Alison's job is to care for all the island's plants, though he has an affinity for the rare ones that are battling invasive species. He spends much of his time in a lab deep inside Catalina's interior, where he clones plant tissue and propagates them. Reporter Steven Rascón  spent some time with Allison and followed his quest to save as many native plants as possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's Witness Wednesday! Todd Friel is at Georgia Tech where he talks with students about the fundamental questions of life, ethics, and spirituality. This episode highlights the importance of repentance, faith, and the transformative power of the Christian gospel. Segment 1: • Student attends an Episcopalian church but admits his faith doesn't impact his daily life. • He defends morality without biblical grounding and even jokes about wanting political opponents harmed. • Todd gently exposes student's contradictions, showing that ignoring God's commands doesn't erase guilt — it confirms it. Segment 2: • Student calls himself lukewarm and challenges Christianity's uniqueness among world religions. • Todd responds with the gospel's distinctiveness: only Christianity offers salvation through grace, not works. • Student intellectually engages but admits he's not living like Jesus is central — leaving his soul in dangerous territory. Segment 3: • An unnamed student confesses to lying, lust, and blasphemy, but insists being “better” should be enough. • Todd presses the reality: if God is just, then sin must be punished — and everyone's guilty. • Todd meets another student who agrees with much of the message but still thinks “being mostly good” should qualify him for heaven. Segment 4: • Todd explains the full gospel to the student — Jesus lived perfectly and died sacrificially to save sinners like him. • Student is told to go to God directly: repent, trust Christ alone, and be born again — not through religion, but real faith. • With tears in his eyes, student quietly listens, visibly affected, as Todd pleads with him to respond to the gospel. – Preorder the new book, Lies My Therapist Told Me, by Fortis Institute Fellow Dr. Greg Gifford now! https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/liesmytherapisttoldme – Thanks for listening! Wretched Radio would not be possible without the financial support of our Gospel Partners. If you would like to support Wretched Radio we would be extremely grateful. VISIT https://fortisinstitute.org/donate/ If you are already a Gospel Partner we couldn't be more thankful for you if we tried!

In this episode, Elle Russ chats with Philip Blackledge - he was ordained a priest in the Scottish Episcopal church in 1999. As he was ordained, the heavens opened, there was a mighty thundering and a heavenly voice spoke out of the cloud saying “Bloody hell, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.”  Before ordination he was a classical music singer, appearing on a number of recordings and broadcasts, and is currently the Chair of the Borders Music Festival, which aims to bring music to younger people and celebrate amateur music making. He is the leader of the Melrose Vocal Ensemble, and still appears as soloist when the money is right.  As a priest he broadcasts regularly on BBC Radio 4 and takes part in discussion programes and “thought for the day” on BBC Scotland. He is a board member of the Scottish Advisory Council for Religion and Ethics. He has a wife, a son, and a dog, all of which have more control over his life than he does.   You can stream his sermons live at: https://www.youtube.com/@HolyTrinityMelrose     FREEBIES: Free Thyroid Guide + Video Series: https://www.elleruss.com/thyroid-guide Free Confidence eBook & Workbook: https://www.elleruss.com/7secrets Elle's newsletter: https://www.elleruss.com/newletter

In this episode of The Cordial Catholic, I'm joined by my friend author, podcaster, and former Episcopalian priest Andrew Petiprin to talk unpack one of the biggest misconceptions about the Catholic Church: that Catholicism is simply another Christian denomination. With aplomb, charity, and with Scripture and the history books in hand, Andrew explains exactly what's wrong with thinking of Catholicism as just another denomination, why that matters, and why it's abundantly  clear from history and Scripture that the Catholic Church is unique in a sea of Christian choices.Plus, we unpack the danger of thinking of the Church as an institution, the notion of the "rules" of Catholicism, and so much more. For more from Andrew listen to his complete conversion story way back on Episode 69 of the podcast.You can find Andrew's book, Faith Unboxed at Catholic Answers or any fine bookseller. And make sure to visit the Spe Salvi Institute.Send your feedback to cordialcatholic@gmail.com. Sign up for our newsletter for my reflections on  episodes, behind-the-scenes content, and exclusive contests.To watch this and other episodes please visit (and subscribe to!) our YouTube channel.Please consider financially supporting this show! For more information visit the Patreon page.  All patrons receive access to exclusive content and if you can give $5/mo or more you'll also be entered into monthly draws for fantastic books hand-picked by me.If you'd like to give a one-time donation to The Cordial Catholic, you can visit the PayPal page.Thank you to those already supporting the show!Theme Music: "Splendor (Intro)" by Former Ruins. Learn more at formerruins.com or listen on Spotify, Apple Music,A very special thanks to our Patreon co-producers who make this show possible: Amanda, Elli and Tom, Fr. Larry, Gina, Heather, James, Jorg, Michelle, Noah, Robert, Shelby, Susanne and Victor, and William.Beyond The BeaconJoin Bishop Kevin Sweeney and Communications Director Jai Agnish of the Diocese of...Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifySupport the showFind and follow The Cordial Catholic on social media:Instagram: @cordialcatholicTwitter: @cordialcatholicYouTube: /thecordialcatholicFacebook: The Cordial CatholicTikTok: @cordialcatholic

Will is on his silent retreat, so today we are joined by Eilise Patton and Chester Collins. As if we weren't lucky enough, we are also joined by Billy Langdon and Chris Powers to break down their Coachella experiences. Follow Eilise: https://www.instagram.com/itseilisepatton/ Follow Chester: https://www.instagram.com/chetcollins_/ Follow Billy: https://www.instagram.com/stilllwell/Follow Chris (Empty Netters): https://www.instagram.com/empty.netters/ SUPPORT BLANDINO'S PIZZA: https://fridaybeers.shop/collections/af-pod FOLLOW OUR SOCIALS: https://www.flowcode.com/page/almostfridaypod SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS: DOWNLOAD BETTERHELP AND GET 10% OFF YOUR FIRST MONTH OF ONLINE THERAPY WITH CODE “BEERS” DOWNLOAD THE BETMGM APP AND USE BONUS CODE “AFPOD” AND YOU WILL GET UP TO A $1500 FIRST BET OFFER ON YOUR FIRST WAGER! Visit https://dollarshaveclub.com/almostfriday and use promo code FRIDAY for 20% off $20 or more. NO MORE HANGOVERS! Head to https://trylastcall.com/FRIDAY for 25% off your first Last Call order. (00:03:15) - Instagram Breakdowns (00:06:08) - Episcopalian vs Protestant (00:07:43) - Coachella (00:11:40) - Coachella Outfits (00:15:06) - Billy Talks Chella (00:21:49) - Coachella Arrests (00:22:54) - Criminal on the Loose (00:26:16) - Kind Words About Angus (00:29:26) - Will's Silent Retreat (00:33:04) - Billy's Coachella Abs (00:35:54) - Recognized During Silent Retreat (00:37:36) - Iconic Bug Gift (00:42:13) - Preparing for Will's Return (00:43:45) - Cheating in School (00:50:29) - Babies at Coachella (00:53:02) - Chris Powers Does Not Get Hungover (00:59:18) - How Old Is Too Old For Coachella? (01:04:56) - Characters (01:19:14) - Eilise at Groundlings Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Protestants often point to Matthew 6:7-11 to argue against repeated prayers—so how can Catholics reconcile this with prayers like the Rosary or the Our Father? Jimmy Akin explores this concern along with Catholic teaching on saints, Mary's spiritual motherhood, and mixed-faith marriages. Join The CA Live Club Newsletter: Click Here Questions Covered: 02:18 – How can we reconcile Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for man and the punishment of death for not recognizing the sabbath in the Old Testament? 10:21 – How can I defend the Church that was Instituted by Jesus Christ, especially on the topic of saints and Mary? 13:47 – Is St. Boniface VIII Unam Sanctam Papal bull statement infallible? If not, is there any dispute? 18:05 – How do we know that Mary's motherhood expands to the rest of us in the wake of Mary being given over to John at the foot of the cross? 28:45 – I'm Protestant. How do Catholics reconcile Mt 6:7-11 and the repetitious prayers specifically the Our Father? 35:01 – How do we respond to Orthodox rejection of the Filioque? 39:45 – Would it be scandalous for me to attend the ordination of a married couple as priests in the Episcopalian church? 49:35 – What advice would you offer me as someone who is in a mixed faith marriage?

Segment 1: • Evil on Display: A female Episcopalian bishop with a pro-abortion stance gives a condescending “sermon” at the inauguration. • The Bigger Issue: No executive orders or modern self-focused ideals can fix what's fundamentally broken—this is evil in action. • Satanic Semantics: The rhetoric and tone reveal the spiritual battle beneath the cultural facade. Segment 2: • The Gospel Missed? Todd critiques Joe Rogan's conversation with Wesley Huff, noting a lack of a full gospel presentation. • Second Chance: Wesley Huff presents the gospel beautifully on the Julian Dorey podcast, reaching an unbelieving audience. • Forgiveness Costs: The gospel shows that forgiveness is costly and requires the ultimate sacrifice. Segment 3: • Judicial Truth: At its heart, the gospel is judicial—Jesus paid the penalty for sin. • A Bold Witness: Wesley Huff's message emphasizes the countercultural truth that the first shall be last. • A Listening Audience: Julian Dorey admits he's never heard the gospel before—highlighting the importance of clear evangelism. Segment 4: • Plenary Indulgences Return: The RCC declares 2025 the “Year of Jubilee,” with indulgences offered for the punishment of sin. • Biblical Misuse: Not every verse applies directly to us—be cautious of misinterpretations like this. • Theological Problems: Indulgences undermine the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross. ___ Thanks for listening! Wretched Radio would not be possible without the financial support of our Gospel Partners. If you would like to support Wretched Radio we would be extremely grateful. VISIT https://fortisinstitute.org/donate/ If you are already a Gospel Partner we couldn't be more thankful for you if we tried!