Podcast appearances and mentions of karen marsdale

[00:00:00] Karen Marsdale: I might be a little bit averse to risks, but because I learned so early on by being really naive and thinking that my husband and I could run a business that really needed a lot more cash flow and ready cash that we just didn't have. [00:00:13] Karen Marsdale: But because I failed and from that failure, we created success. And when I say success, we were able to get back on track and work hard and buy a house and send our kids to college. And, that early failure made me feel that if I could do that and come back from it, I'm not really afraid to fail. [00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: This week, we're resuming the conversation we started last week with Karen Marsdale, the co-director of Hannah's Hope in Berks County, Pennsylvania. Hannah's Hope is dedicated to helping women with children who are facing homelessness in Berks County. The primary focus is on women, who despite their current situation, sheltered potential and determination to rebuild their lives. Karen will also explain how she and her co-director have split senior leadership duties to play to their individual strengths. While this sometimes leads to complications, it's working wonderfully at Hannah's Hope. Let's pick up where we left off last week. [00:01:25] Tommy Thomas: Give us a thumbnail sketch of Hannah's Hope and the trust that y'all have there in Berks County. [00:01:31] Karen Marsdale: Okay, so I'm just going to give a little bit of an educational piece here for about two minutes in the world of homelessness. And we see it of course now. It's front and center everywhere we go in terms of, media or, in seeing people on the street. There's a continuum of homelessness. [00:01:51] Karen Marsdale: And we teach people all the time that when you see one homeless person, there are people in the continuum that are chronically homeless. Those might be people who are addicted and they don't want to give up their addiction. They're going to be on the street. They're going to be in tent camps. [00:02:06] Karen Marsdale: They're not going to be moved into the next .They're not somebody who has had one thing happen. And now they have become homeless. Then you have people who are homeless because of an incident or something that's happened in their life and they need a certain amount of care. [00:02:23] Karen Marsdale: What we do at Hannah's is very focused on women with children who are in that place where they have abilities. And we have a very robust application process, three interviews. One of the interviews usually encompasses our trauma therapist, because she's getting from the where is this person in their mental health? [00:02:48] Karen Marsdale: How do we check their mental health? We look at where they've been in terms of, have they ever had a job? So women that come to us and I say this, and it might sound a bit on feeling, but we're looking for women who you would say would be the advanced placement or the A+ women who find themselves in a homeless situation who really have the ability, the grit. [00:03:12] Karen Marsdale: And again, when I say ability, it's not just the want to, but do they have the ability to learn skills that can help them to get a a job or go to classes that they can get training, some sort of basic training so that they can get a living wage job. So our goal is to take women for 12 to 18 months, teach them life skills. [00:03:35] Karen Marsdale: Business skills, all the skills that they need. It can be things like even how to clean, how to cook. Essentially they might not have some of these skills, but they have some of them and they've not learned all of them. But we want to get them to a place ultimately where they can live independently for the rest of their lives with their children without necessarily having a mate. And one of the biggest problems that we see, particularly with women with children, and this is why there's domestic violence and abuse, is the fact that they've never had the background, or they've never had the family environment where they've been loved, nurtured, and cared for. [00:04:24] Karen Marsdale: So they're always looking for love, as the saying goes, in all the wrong places. And it really, in the world of trauma, is called a trauma bond. So when people say, why does she keep going back to a domestic issue? It's because that's a bond she has, and to some degree, a woman feels comfortable there. [00:04:42] Karen Marsdale: And she very well could have seen her mother, her grandmother. It is now generational, probably three generations of homelessness. And when I say homelessness, it's, it could be, I'm living with an aunt. I'm living with somebody who acts as a relative in the Hispanic community, especially which we deal with a great deal of, there's always these extended family people who are not really relatives. [00:05:07] Karen Marsdale: So I'm living on my aunt's couch. I'm living with my cousin. That is homelessness. So they may have been living that way, all their lives with a parent. So we're very selective. If a woman has an addiction issue, we are not a facility to be able to help them with that. [00:05:28] Karen Marsdale: We try to guide them to the right places in our community, but we have a very narrow band of what we're looking for in Hannah's Hope, because we really want you to be a success, and we're looking for those who can be successful. So it's vetting. It's a vetting process. I like to say, and when I talk briefly about this, I'll say, three women in the past 12 months have bought their own homes. [00:05:52] Karen Marsdale: And these are women who would say, I never thought I could even own a car. Or even get a license. Our program is, like I said, it's very robust. They have to be in programming four nights a week, in other words, classes, budgeting, parenting, trauma therapy, Bible study, and spiritual growth. [00:06:16] Karen Marsdale: And then there's always things going on beyond that. They have responsibilities like cooking for the house. So that could be up to 18 to 20 people that they're cooking for a couple times a month. Taking turns, they have to clean, they have to clean the entire home, which is two levels. [00:06:32] Karen Marsdale: It's not easy. And then they have to go to work and then they have to be in class and their children are in classes. We feel that one of the problems in the whole shelter movement that has happened is sometimes it's been more about the women than the children. [00:06:50] Karen Marsdale: So children are just drug along and they're in as much trauma as the parent. So we help the children if they need extra services through school or through some of the resources in the community. We just had a little guy who came in who was nonverbal. He is now getting extra help. [00:07:07] Karen Marsdale: We found out he was actually tongue tied, literally. So he has to have the tongue snipped to be able to really speak. And he's doing fabulously. But I would say in most shelters, he would just be sitting in the room, maybe going to get daycare or whatever, but he wouldn't have a case manager, at his age. [00:07:27] Karen Marsdale: So we try to, because every child that comes to us is always below what they should be in terms of their age range. So they're navigating and learning at a much lower level than they should be. And that's just because they've been homeless and drugged from one couch to another for their lifetime. [00:07:46] Tommy Thomas: In your current work and probably back at the chamber you had some experience in developing the next generation of leaders. Give me, from your perspective, give me some keys to bringing this next generation along. [00:07:59] Karen Marsdale: That's a good question. And, again there's I think I, this was just intuitively who I was. [00:08:08] Karen Marsdale: I want to give opportunity to folks, and particularly in the work I've done, it's been primarily women, although I've had men who've worked under me. I want people to grow and to learn how to lead themselves, meaning I want to give them responsibility, according to what their skills are right now, and give them the opportunity to feel like they can make some of those decisions that they need to make to become a leader that I know they could be. [00:08:45] Karen Marsdale: And if I hired somebody that wasn't up to that kind of skill level, maybe they were great at doing another type of job. And I was always looking for those who probably didn't know within themselves that they had the ability to do much more than they thought they could. [00:09:02] Karen Marsdale: So I'm looking at what I always said. I don't want you to come to me with a problem. I want you to identify a problem and then come to me with a solution. And then you will then exercise on that. And that problem will be solved because you solved it. [00:09:22] Karen Marsdale: And then you could execute according to what you've uncovered and discovered. [00:09:28] Karen Marsdale: Even if somebody fails, a few times of doing this and they come back and say I thought that this was the answer. You say let's go back and relook at what went wrong in the process. And I just, I'm going to have to do this right. [00:09:40] Karen Marsdale: Currently with a situation that I just found out about this morning. And I'm thinking in my mind of how I'm going to go to this individual and say, you jumped the gun on this and this is the outcome. And I had to step in and take care of it. But how could we have, how could you have done it differently next time? [00:09:59] Karen Marsdale: And I always felt, and years later, people will say, to do it. You are such a mentor to me and I take that so that's such a compliment. I take that with a lot of humility because, you have an expectation as a leader from whomever you're reporting to. And so those behind you, you really have an expectation for them and if they don't deliver, it's on you, it's not on them. [00:10:23] Karen Marsdale: But I just think like that, that confidence that they have, that you have their back. You are loyal and especially, they've earned it, so you have to earn it, but it's that loyalty, it's that humility, it's leading from behind, making sure they have the opportunity. I've had women go on to do much more complicated things and in larger companies than I did. [00:10:49] Karen Marsdale: But they said, you were the one that gave me this feeling of confidence that I could do it. [00:10:56] Karen Marsdale: Does that make sense? [00:10:58] Tommy Thomas: It does. And it reminds me of an article I read on team building. And the writer said, identify your evangelist, those people in your obsession who love to work, work for them is not a job, but a source of excitement, reward them, give them a platform. [00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: So you would resonate with that? [00:11:16] Karen Marsdale: Absolutely. And you know what, is a leader born or do you make a leader? And I think it's a bit of both. But someone has to come with an innate desire that work is a passion and they don't watch the clock. And it's not that you ever take advantage of people, but you'll sense them. [00:11:38] Karen Marsdale: You'll sense who they are. You're evangelists. And then you work with them. There's nothing, there's no greater reward or feeling to see those evangelists do really well. [00:11:50] Tommy Thomas: Do you have a favorite interview question or an interview question that's really worked to help you get below the surface? [00:11:59] Karen Marsdale: When I get below the surface, I will ask somebody, why would you want to come to work here? [00:12:04] Karen Marsdale: Is there something about this place? When we get into ministry work, I think it's a little bit different because there is absolutely no denying that people have to come. Because this is a calling. It's not a job, but they also have to have the skills. If you're a case manager, you have to have those skills, but then you come because there's something here. [00:12:31] Karen Marsdale: And I've had people say that there is something here that is different from where I've worked in the secular world and at the chamber. I think, again, because we were so much part of the community and people knew us, saw us. Were involved with us, whether it be my company's involved and I bond and they people I'd love to work at the chamber and I think oftentimes they would think it's just, oh, you could just go to meetings and you meet with people and your network is let me tell you about the work that happens behind the screen. [00:13:03] Karen Marsdale: There again, I would ask somebody, why would you, why do you really want to come here to work. And that answer is very important. Very important. [00:13:14] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to employee turnover for a minute. What have you done over time to reduce or mitigate employee turnover? [00:13:23] Karen Marsdale: I'm going to say, and I feel very how can I say, I didn't have a lot of employee turnover, either at the chamber. [00:13:33] Karen Marsdale: We're now at Hannah's Hope and I've been at Hannah's for about five to six years in this position of first interim director and now co-director. And I think it's because I feel I have a pretty good ability to hire well. And when I've not, when I've had a, okay, we really have to have someone in this position. [00:13:54] Karen Marsdale: I've not found my evangelist. I have not found my A player, but I'm going to hire B. It typically, down the road, it's, we have to have a parting of the ways. And the turnover primarily, I will tell you in the chamber for me was because we were such a unique organization that people got so much exposure in the community, in the business, and even the nonprofit community that when someone came in and they started to develop and people would see who they were and what they were doing, people just picked them off. [00:14:34] Karen Marsdale: And I had more, there were more times that I'd have somebody come into my office, particularly women, close the door and start to cry and say, Karen, I got this great offer from, and I'm like, that is wonderful. That is great. That's what I want for you. Make sure they pay you what you're worth, so that I think and at Hannah's we've had very little turnover. [00:14:54] Karen Marsdale: I've had to say goodbye to one individual, but I gave this person a lot of, I wanted to coach and mentor, and she didn't want that. And we came to a place that just, it wasn't going to work. [00:15:08] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn a lot when we fail. And if that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail? [00:15:16] Karen Marsdale: I think it's ego. I think it's fear. I think it's what will I ever do if I fail? And so that, therefore I think people don't take risks. And I might be a little bit averse to risks, but because I learned so early on by being really naive and thinking that, my husband and I could run a business that really needed a lot more cash flow and ready cash that we just didn't have. [00:15:40] Karen Marsdale: But because I failed and from that failure, we created success. And when I say success, we were able to get back on track and work hard and buy a house and send our kids to college. And, that early failure made me feel that if I could do that and come back from it, I'm not really afraid to fail. [00:16:04] Karen Marsdale: I really have really very little ego. The biggest challenge I will tell you, in my years of both in chamber work a little bit in corporate work, small business. And now in the world that I'm living in at Hannah's is my almost fear of failure. [00:16:23] Karen Marsdale: Because Hannah's Hope, about six and a half, seven years ago was not in a good place financially. We knew what we were doing in terms of what our mission was, but we relied too much and this is so non profit, this can be the case. [00:16:46] Karen Marsdale: Leaning on a few people financially and not worrying or not doing the work that you always have to do, which is knock on a thousand doors and ask a thousand people to help you do this work together, and so we weren't very well known. We didn't have a lot of income coming in on a routine basis, like monthly donors, etc. [00:17:06] Karen Marsdale: And we had to start from scratch with that, and, my name is behind it, and I know a lot of people, so I will not fail. We cannot fail at this. And it's a little bit challenging for me right now. I think I have a little bit of PTSD, and we're doing very well and  we've got great outcomes. [00:17:27] Karen Marsdale: We'd like to have a hundred percent, but we're dealing with people and people in very critical places in life. So you're not going to, not every woman is going to want to stick with this program and become and they want independence, but they don't want to work hard enough for it. [00:17:42] Karen Marsdale: But fear of failure is, I think the thing that has, it has led some people to not have, not do the things that they really, that God has given them the gifts to do. Because they're just too comfortable. [00:18:01] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what would be some of the chapters in your book? [00:18:15] Karen Marsdale: I think the first would be and you've heard this, but it's lonely at the top or how, what does it mean when the buck stops with you? What does that really mean? Do you want that? Or, like a whole chapter on when things happen, it rolls downhill and you're going to have it. [00:18:40] Karen Marsdale: I think another, and I, my mother always said to me, and it's scriptural, like there's nothing new under the sun. So when you look at things, you need to understand that a leader is one who can, how can you find your evangelist? And then how do you know when to get out of the way and let them lead? [00:19:05] Karen Marsdale: I have seen more people because of ego and self importance. So this is really a lesson for a leader and a CEO. How do I make sure that I'm hiring people that could be smarter than me and be secure with that, be secure to hire better people than yourself. So those are a couple chapters that I would have. [00:19:33] Tommy Thomas: You have the current role of current director at Hannah's and I've seen that work before and and I've seen it not work. Sure. How are y'all doing it? [00:19:44] Karen Marsdale: We just incorporated this model as of January. And I will tell you really, again a young woman was, everyone's young to me. [00:19:53] Karen Marsdale: So she's in her forties. She's primed to want, this is a passion of hers. She's got a lot of skills that she probably didn't even realize she had. And so really what I'm doing, Tommy, is we've fallen into this where she works. She works really in the clinical, I might say, like managing the case manager. [00:20:15] Karen Marsdale: And again, we're small. The org chart isn't very deep. So I try to find myself being her mentor. And she'll make a decision or she'll make a suggestion or, and she'll be, and it'll be more in the clinical sort of the mom's suggestion, like how are we managing this individual? [00:20:36] Karen Marsdale: And every day, because we're so deep with these families in every aspect of their lives, that things will come up that we have to discuss and make a decision on but I will let Mary, even if we disagree slightly, I'll let her make that decision. And I'm trying to stay in the world of development, making connections. [00:20:59] Karen Marsdale: Doing what I naturally did at the chamber. I just did all of that, but staying away from her area of having made decisions about them. When I say clinical, that's talking about case management and what the area that is not my wheelhouse. Some of it you become to know, you come to know pieces because it's just logical and intuitive with an application but we work very well together because ultimately, and this is where I think there's a little bit of a difference between, in there's another nonprofit in our area, which is quite large. [00:21:34] Karen Marsdale: And they have co directors, and I actually met with the one gal, the one co director, a couple of months ago, and I was actually on some things that we were, I wanted to get clarity on what they were doing, because they sent a woman to us, and it was not a good ending. And so I said, Peggy, how does it work with you and your co director? [00:21:53] Karen Marsdale: And she said they had an executive director for years, she and this other woman were doing parts of the in parts of the organization, which were very different parts. And she said when the executive director retired, the executive director came and said, I think you two would make great co directors because you work well together. [00:22:12] Karen Marsdale: You both have your own areas of expertise and it's worked well. And the one is most definitely the face of that organization. And that often happens too. And particularly in nonprofit work, and I've said this to our board when they would say your interim now, isn't about time we get a director. [00:22:31] Karen Marsdale: And I said, first of all, we're faith based. I believe that God brings the fruit. God will bring the right person. I may not be able to find them. It's not like that, I'm looking for an accountant and I'm in an accounting firm. When Mary came, it was a, God, this is the next executive director, or the next director, when I really can move into, or, again, I want her to be the director, and I think that, that is what we're doing, we're very open. [00:23:00] Karen Marsdale: Mary, you'll need to take the helm and run this organization. Whether I'm behind you doing some work for you or whether the Lord takes me home or whatever, it's our plan. And this is our succession plan really. [00:23:21] Karen Marsdale: And boy, you know what, it's like when people don't have a succession plan in a business, particularly small to midsize family owned businesses. So that's why I look at the co director and we keep saying we've got to sit down. We're running with scissors. But we've got to sit down and say, okay, this is really my area. [00:23:39] Karen Marsdale: Karen's area. This is Mary's area, but we just intertwined so well. And she really feels and says, because people will come up and say, you're very fortunate to have Karen as your, you know, mentor. And she knows it. And I'm not saying that. Please know I'm not bragging. [00:23:56] Karen Marsdale: So does that make sense to you? It's really a succession plan. But in order to have her seen in the community as my equal, I felt we needed co directorship titles. [00:24:14] Tommy Thomas: It sounds like you got, yeah, your example and your friend's example, you got two of them in the area that seemed to be working. [00:24:21] Tommy Thomas: So that's good news. [00:24:24] Karen Marsdale: Yes, it doesn't always work. And because honestly, and truly, I, very rarely would I ever say that I've seen the only time I've seen businesses where they won't make a decision, particularly in family owned businesses where succession planning, and nobody wants to say, where my husband worked for a company like this, and actually our last governor of the state was, it was his family owned business, they could not make a decision on who would be president so they rotated two brothers and a brother in law. [00:24:54] Karen Marsdale: That was a disaster and of course it would be. And so I would be more leery of that than I am. You know when it's right. But most times it's not up to say that. [00:25:06] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. So you serve obviously at the chamber, you work with boards. You report to a board. Now you serve on several boards. How did your first nonprofit board come to pass?  [00:25:15] Karen Marsdale: The first nonprofit board and because the chamber is nonprofit, I did a stint for about a year and a half as the interim president of the chamber because we had a CEO that left through marriage and a move and nobody was in place when this all happened. So the search committee took about a little over a year to find some of them. [00:25:45] Karen Marsdale: So that was my first board, the chamber board. [00:25:49] Karen Marsdale: It was pretty overwhelming. It was a good board. And the reality was the chamber was very well run. And the role of the board versus the role of the staff was very defined. So there was not an issue there. [00:26:02] Karen Marsdale: So I think I sailed into a place where it was just, I needed to make sure that everything was being kept very much in alignment with what had been done well for so long. And I think it was really the first CEO that I worked for who really made that happen. [00:26:24] Karen Marsdale: And working at the chamber, we also did a lot of work with nonprofits. We partnered on a lot of things with others like universities in the area who do nonprofit courses and our community foundation that does a lot with, how do you create a good board? [00:26:38] Karen Marsdale: How do you manage? What's the role of a board? So I had seen terrible situations. And seeing nonprofits dissolve, that's probably the biggest issue. And especially today because people don't want to volunteer. Going to paid boards is a whole different ball game, but too many nonprofits are not training their board of directors to know this is what you do. And this is what you don't do. And the two should not be confused. With the chamber board, I was a little, I just was always just hyper vigilant when it came to, okay, what needs to be done, get that agenda and all the notes out on time, make sure that everything is everybody's ready to report. [00:27:35] Karen Marsdale: It was a couple million dollars in operating budget and so it was not complicated, but for me, I just stepped into the role. I wasn't mentored into the role. [00:27:51] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, give me, maybe give me some words and phrases that would describe a good board chair. [00:27:57] Karen Marsdale: First of all they know that they are the major advocate for this organization. [00:28:03] Karen Marsdale: They represent the organization to the public. They're also in the role of being a board chair, you want every one of your board members to understand and make sure that they clearly understand. Their position, their role. And this is very hard. [00:28:20] Karen Marsdale: It's volunteers. Don't like to tell other volunteers, when you pay somebody, you can tell them they're not doing a good job and they better do it or else, there's going to be consequences. It's hard for a volunteer to tell another volunteer, but I think they have to have the ability to say, you know what, Joe, you've missed three meetings, do you feel like perhaps you don't have enough time for this board? [00:28:39] Karen Marsdale: Because this is not acceptable. So a good board, a good chairman of the board makes sure that the board is doing what a board does. You don't do the job of the staff. You never call a staff person directly. You talk to the executive director or the director. [00:29:02] Karen Marsdale: And a good board chair person always protects. And this is when things are running well and everybody's really doing their job. You always protect your executive director, president whatever the lead person is in your organization. Now, I will tell you, Tommy, this is where we have not, the thing that we're doing, and again, we're a young organization, Hannah's Hope. [00:29:26] Karen Marsdale: We are constantly looking for, I would say, more qualified people on our board. And I actually act as the board president too, which really is not the best scenario. So I'm always cognizant of making sure that our board, which is only seven people, is very much aware of everything that I'm doing. [00:30:10] Karen Marsdale: I want to make sure that they're aware of everything that we're doing and so that they can feel very comfortable that they don't have to get involved. And it's really, it's an art and a skill to create a really good working board. [00:30:29] Karen Marsdale: And there's a difference between the working board and an advisory board. And some of our folks think they're just advising. And so I've had to very diplomatically say we're going to expect some action on your part when it comes to, say an event or something of that nature, or fundraising, and every board member should be able to make an ask for your organization and not say I don't know anybody. [00:30:58] Tommy Thomas: So let's bring this thing to a close. I got 2, 3, 4, shorter questions. Maybe. What's the best compliment anybody's ever paid you? [00:31:10] Karen Marsdale: I think the compliment I've been paid from an individual was I am just so grateful that you stepped in to Hannah's Hope and turned the ship around. [00:31:29] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? [00:31:34] Karen Marsdale: There was a man who ran a steel company here. They had probably about 5,000 employees. And one time, this is just so simple, but it's so true. And he said, you get in trouble for what you say. Not for what you don't say. And that might just sound very basic. But when you think about people will say things, and if you move that down the path, sometimes it can be very, you don't mean to do it, but you're gossiping, you're throwing someone under the bus. [00:32:09] Karen Marsdale: This man happened to be a believer and he was just so well respected in our community. But he was speaking at the chamber. He said, I learned a long time ago, you get in trouble for what you say and not for what you don't say. [00:32:21] Karen Marsdale: So if you think it's not worth saying, if you think I shouldn't say this, don't say it. And that's easy, it can be a big part of life. [00:32:33] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you say? [00:32:40] Karen Marsdale: I guess I would say have confidence in yourself. [00:32:44] Karen Marsdale: You're going to be something that you never thought you were going to be, or could be. And, so there again, it goes back to the fear of failure. And never giving up. [00:32:58] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.  Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable. Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify 

[00:00:00] Karen Marsdale: I wanted to be a ballet dancer and I was very serious and was in ballet lessons and modern dance lessons almost every day of the week by the time I was in junior high. I went to dance camp in the summer, went to the University of Connecticut for a summer with the Martha Graham School of Dance. And then after my senior year of high school, I spent six years in New York doing a program with the Joffrey School of Ballet. My ultimate dream was to go to Juilliard. I did not make the cut. And I think that should have been a little bit of a signal because it's like dance is professional sports one in, how many million really become the prima ballerina at the New York city ballet. +++++++++++++++ [00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Karen Marsdale, a longtime contributor to the economic vibrancy of Berks County, Pennsylvania. Karen spent almost 27 years in senior leadership roles with the Reading Chamber of Commerce and Industry before joining Hannah's Hope as co-executive director. She took her BA in fashion merchandising and business management from Stevens College and serves on the boards of several nonprofits in and around Berks County. Karen, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:02:16] Karen Marsdale: Thank you, Tommy. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: I'm a huge fan of all that a well-led Chamber of Commerce can do over the years I've observed, what good things happen when the Chamber takes a role in promoting economics and also when they take a role in incorporating the non-profit sector into the life of a community because I think that's important. When I learned of your background, I just jumped at the chance to have somebody who's done that and then migrated over into the role with Hannah's Hope. Again, thank you for joining us. Now before we dig too deep into your multi-pronged career, let's go back towards the beginning. Take me into your childhood and what two or three things do you remember that maybe has contributed to you being the person you are today? [00:03:06] Karen Marsdale: I'm an only child. And so that in the era that I was born and raised, that was a bit unique because big families were more the norm then than they are now. I think one of the things that kind of charted my course was I was always around adults primarily. Now we did live near relatives, so I had cousins and aunts and uncles, you spend most of your time with your family, meaning your parents. And so, I think that being an only child did not only, particularly for my mother, have the, maybe the opportunity, sometimes it didn't feel so opportunistic to have someone who was just looking at you as the in, the child that they're raising and nurturing. [00:03:52] Karen Marsdale: So sometimes I might've felt a little bit overwhelmed, but when you're an only child, I've read books on birth order etc. And one thing that I learned from that was an only child is like a firstborn times three. When you're an only child it is like being a firstborn times three. You tend to be alpha; you tend to be a leader. [00:04:09] Karen Marsdale: So, you tend to be alpha, you tend to be a leader. And I'm not saying these things to say, this is who I am. It's just this is often what happens. My mother was a bit sensitive. And so I was sensitive. I know I got my feelings hurt a lot. And mother was not exactly grin and bear it. It was oh, you poor thing. So, I think, and that was a lot about her background. And it's just so interesting. And now today, especially, my work at hand as you see how much background in childhood impacts the life and the trajectory of an individual. I do remember one time I broke my arm, and my father was rough and tumble and praise many was a welder and, oh, you're fine, you'll be fine. And my mother then took me to the hospital. I got it casted up and I almost waited all day for my father to come home, jump in the driveway and say, see, I told you. It's funny little things that you remember when you're in elementary school. Those are some of the things I remember. [00:05:17] Tommy Thomas: What'd you want to be when you grew up? Karen Marsdale: Oh, my word. This is something that when I tell people, they're like, really, if they've never known this, or we've never talked about it. I became interested in ballet in about fifth grade after about four years of taking classes and not liking them because I really, and this taught me a great lesson, which I'll talk about in a minute. I wanted to be a ballet dancer and I was very serious and was in ballet lessons and modern dance lessons almost every day of the week by the time I was in junior high. [00:05:48] Karen Marsdale: And I went to dance camp in the summer, went to the University of Connecticut for a summer with the Martha Graham School of Dance. And then, after my senior year of high school, I spent six years in New York doing a program with the Joffrey School of Ballet. My ultimate dream was to go to Juilliard. I did not make the cut. And I think that should have been a little bit of a signal because it's like dance is professional sports one in, how many million really become the prima ballerina at the New York city ballet. So, I did go to Stevens College. My first year, I was a dance major. They had a good program, went there and then changed my major, but all through those years of especially junior high into senior high. And then towards senior high, I was teaching some classes at the dance school that I went to, and I had an excellent teacher. Like sports, dance teaches discipline.  You have to show up and work hard. [00:06:42] Karen Marsdale: She was a mentor. And I'll tell you what it taught me was number one, discipline. Because discipline and dance is as much discipline as it is, excuse me, in the sports world. You have to show up and work out. It taught me discipline. On a Saturday morning, if I didn't want to get up and go to a dance class at 8 or 9 o'clock, I still had to go. The other thing it taught me, because through dance, I also did, in our small community, we had community theater. I am totally tone deaf, so I can't sing. I couldn't be in, and when I was in musicals, and I did do some relatively, one in particular, I did a relatively important part in a musical. Community theater taught me stage presence.  I can speak to a thousand people because I am not really speaking to a thousand people, I am looking at and speaking to a particular person on the front row. [00:07:25] Karen Marsdale: So, I had to learn lines. When it came to the, just to the music, I just would lip sync, but it taught me a bit of stage presence that still to this day is very useful because I've often said I can speak to a thousand people and not being really terribly nervous because you learned that you're not really speaking to a thousand people. You're looking at somebody in the front row. And so I can do that. And sometimes I think it's less intimidating for me to speak to that group of an audience when we're doing a what, through the chamber. And we had some events that had over a thousand people, and I could get up and speak. [00:08:09] Karen Marsdale: And it was probably easier than speaking to the board of directors, when I speak about something that was a bit challenging. So that, just folks don't realize the things that kiddos can gain from being in different types of activity. [00:08:27] Tommy Thomas: So, you graduated, you had maybe decided that the dance was not going to be totally your career. What happened then? [00:08:37] Karen Marsdale: You mean after high school? Rather after college, right? Yeah. Okay. So, after college this is really again, something that is, typically someone gets a job looking at their major, etc. But what my husband and I did, and I will tell you, I was married after my junior year of college. My husband had come back from Vietnam. We went back to where I was at Stevens College in Columbia, Missouri. He did a year at the University of Missouri to finish up his degree. And then we took a funny, rather interesting term because we went back to our hometown and maybe this was the best thing or the worst thing we did, but we bought a small business, and it was really in the area of, and again, your understanding, it's back in the seventies, it was a woman's boutique. We sold some small, but we also sold fashion. We saw fashions, we sold gift items, we sold accessories. And my background in fashion merchandising. We decided to do this. My parents wanted us to do it. I think only children who think about this, come back home. Don't go a thousand miles away for work. [00:09:43] Karen Marsdale: So, we were in our own business for about eight years. And my husband also took a sort of a crash course while we were there in our hometown in upholstery. So, he opened up his own business. Here's two 20 some year olds in their own businesses and they're not second-generation family businesses. So, it was a great experience. We were going to New York on buying trips. We were meeting with sales reps. We were hiring people. We only had a staff, mostly part time of about five people. And it was a great experience. I look back now and think, through my life it really made us the people that we are because it did not turn out particularly well. [00:10:27] Karen Marsdale: Maybe we were more naive than we thought. And after about eight years, we had to liquidate the business. We tried selling it. It was not a good time in our community. And so, we weren't able to sell the business.  By this time we had two kids and a house and we had to liquidate everything to pay off our debt, and I'm very open to tell the story. Our first business failed. We had to liquidate everything to pay off our debt.  We walked away with less than a thousand dollars.  We moved to Reading, Pennsylvania and started over. [00:10:47] Karen Marsdale: We had to pay off all our debt. We walked away with under a thousand dollars. We moved to Reading, Pennsylvania, where I had some family and uncle and his family. And my husband had gotten a job prior to before we moved, and we started all over again. And we were still young enough to, it was a blow, and it was emotionally challenging, but we just picked ourselves up and said, you know what we've got is ourselves. And we both have skills that we can hone and give to someone. And one thing that it taught me, and this is why I think my career at the chamber was so rewarding and why I understood to some degree what it takes for a small business owner, because if you've never signed the front of the paycheck and had to make payroll, you don't know what it is. [00:11:42] Karen Marsdale: To really understand what business is all about, even the smallest of businesses. So that was a great life lesson. Amazing. And I just feel that everyone needs to take everything they do as part of a life lesson to move to wherever they go from there. [00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: So how did you get involved with the Chamber of Commerce? [00:12:07] Karen Marsdale: Okay. So that was a little bit down the road. When we first came here, I did a couple of jobs that were, I would say not temporary, but not what I would think would be my career. Again, it's that world of knowing people who know people and networking, which I just can't say enough for knowing people and networking and being a true person that cares about others and networking in that fashion. So, I had a very dear friend. She's still my best friend to this day, 40 years later, she was on the board of the chamber of commerce and a small business owner, had a couple of businesses. She is a very outspoken wonderful individual, with great high moral character. She went to our then CEO and my first CEO of the chamber and said there was an opening. There was not an opening. But she went to him and said, I have a friend and if you hire her, I'm going to guarantee she's going to make you look good. And I had an invitation to speak with the CEO. We had a great conversation, not really an interview. He said, you know what, Karen, I don't have anything right now. [00:13:19] Karen Marsdale: He said, but the next time there's an opening that you seem to be would fit, he said, I'm going to call you. And within, I think three weeks, he called me because the director of marketing gave her notice and was going someplace else. And he called me in, and he said, do you want the job? And I said, absolutely. I didn't even ask what the salary was. We negotiated that after I got the job, it was crazy. But so that was my introduction to the chamber world. [00:13:46] Tommy Thomas: At that time, I guess you had a staff when y'all were in the retail business, but yeah, think back to the first time you really had a group of people reporting to you, what kind of memories do you have of that? [00:14:00] Karen Marsdale: It was challenging because again, we, most of the women that worked for me, and they were women, obviously, it was a woman's boutique, as they would call it back then, were much older, they were my mother's age, some of them might have been a little bit older. But I think what made them respect me as this small business owner was the fact that I respected them and got to know them and cared about them and their families. And we were a team together doing this work. And they chose to be working where they were because they really enjoyed the atmosphere, the customer experience. And, I was a rookie, you're 23 and you're managing people who are 55 years old and you're just, I think one of the keys is you always have to respect those who are working for you while making it clear what the expectations are of the job. Servant leadership doesn't mean you're anybody's lacky.  It means you put that person first and find the greatness in them. [00:15:01] Karen Marsdale: But leading as I call it and, servant leadership, which doesn't mean that you're anybody's lacky, but it means that you put that person first and you find the greatness in them and help them. When that happens, I think I just did it at first, not knowing necessarily what I was doing. I was thrown into that. And my husband is also, he's an extremely intuitive person. He was the partner in the business. So, we did this as a team. And I think that was a good mix that we were both there working with and managing this small staff of people who really wanted us to succeed. It just, it was organic, I think. +++++++++++++++ [00:15:49] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you and a team have ever undertaken and how did it work out? [00:15:57] Karen Marsdale: So, I will tell you, fast forward to the Chamber of Commerce. And one of the things that I loved about the Chamber is very entrepreneurial. Now that does not mean that I didn't have to work really hard. I should say entrepreneurs work. They never don't work. I think that's the thing that I loved about that and small business owners and people who were growing businesses, but I was in a position of leadership.  I had earned it.  I had proven myself, and I had some really great women in leadership in the community. [00:16:26] Karen Marsdale: And we just began to see that our women's programs at the chamber and most chambers will have some kind of women's programs, quote unquote. And they said, we're not really, we're just doing the same old thing and having a luncheon and, then people go away and, oh, that was great, but how does it help me in the workplace? So, we undertook to take, basically, a year to create an organization and this is how it was defined. It was an organization within another organization. And so, we created what we called Women to Women, and that was an organization within the chamber. [00:17:05] Karen Marsdale: We had our own programming, our own model. And it was really to help women in the workplace find their skills. And how could we help them move into leadership roles and again, from my background and from who I am as a person, this was never meant to be. And this is why I think it was so successful and why even men in the community said this is the greatest thing to really have a place where women can feel safe. They can build and develop skills and training because it was never women against men. These were not, we were not looking at men as chauvinists. Men and women can work together so well, and women at the table bring so much to the table. That was the essential foundation of what Women to Women was about. [00:18:01] Karen Marsdale: It was very hard work. I went out and got businesses to underwrite the work of what we were doing. We built our own membership within the membership of the Chamber, and it was a huge success. And I can remember we worked so hard. And that was not only getting the credibility of what we were doing, but pushing the sort of boundaries of we're going to do our own programming aside, along with the chamber that your chambers often do workshops, etc. But we really had some amazing successes. And we get a national speaker woman to come in. In the beginning of the fall of the year to kick off the whole year of training and development. And there were companies that joined the Chamber in order to be part of Women to Women. [00:18:53] Karen Marsdale: And to this day, it is the most successful program in their over 100 years. And it's going strong. And as a matter of fact, I'll just tell you a little aside. Last night, I was at a function, a gala for a nonprofit and sitting with a group of younger women, and the one woman said, I was just at lunch, and I overheard a group of women behind me, and they were talking about Women to Women. And she said, I wanted to lean over and say I know the founder. And again, Tommy, this is a big deal in a small market. So, I'm not talking about a national movement, but I had chambers around the country call and ask, how did you do this? I don't think I could ever get our board to do it. [00:19:36] Karen Marsdale: And I'd say, yeah, you know what? You have to keep working and working. I hate to say it, but it's true. Primarily made up of men. We'll embrace this. And see the value and say, this helps my company because I have women that I want to promote to leadership or their women in leadership. And there's all kinds of things we did mentor programs, lean in circles from Cheryl Sandberg from Facebook, who wrote this whole curriculum on, how do women navigate in the world of business. There were all kinds of things going on. And still are. And I will say one thing that a staff person I'm still in contact with, and she's done amazing things, moved from the chamber to other nonprofit work in development. And she said to me one day, this is really hard. And I said, yeah, Carolyn, this is very hard, but if it was easy, wouldn't everybody be doing it? That's just my mantra. ++++++++++++++++ [00:20:32] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned you had to go out and get your funding and I've noticed on the Hannah's Hope website, y'all have what seems to be a very robust corporate community of sponsors.  What did you learn about fundraising during those early days? Everybody is in sales.  Even if you are the receptionist in the dentist office, you are selling something.  We must develop that mindset. [00:20:47] Karen Marsdale: Okay. The thing is, I'll just say this one thing, everybody is in sales. I don't care what you do. If you're picking up the phone at the dentist's office and you're saying hello and you're selling something.  And so therefore, we all have to have that kind of mindset. I learned very quickly that you're going to get more no's than you are yeses, and you have to believe in what you're doing. So I took that to heart and I really don't give up on things. [00:21:19] Karen Marsdale: So again, if I know that this is good for people, I know this is good for your company to be a part of say Women to Women, or now Hannah's Hope Ministries. If I know, because what we're doing is so important, I want you to be a part of it. And you need to assist us in making an investment in what we're doing. And that's how I always really knew that you have to get as much value as the customer as we're getting, as the product. A good thing to remember is you need to, if you're getting those, you're doing a good job because you're going to get more no's than yeses. [00:22:02] Karen Marsdale: But again, and I, and a dear friend of mine who was a major player in the banking world here, a female, said, it's just a matter of the numbers. If you make this many calls, you're going to get this many no's. And now again, this is not just, this is saying you've got a good product. You understand your product. In sales you will get a lot of nos.  There is an old saying – “is this no for now or no forever”. It's beneficial to the customer. You're going to get no's. And you know the old saying, is it no for now or no forever. And so you hang up the phone and say, okay, that was a no. Let me make three more phone calls and I might get a yes. And I always wanted to end the day saying, gosh, I should have made those three phone calls. [00:22:38] Karen Marsdale: I'm going to make those phone calls before I leave the office. And so even with Hannah's Hope, quite frankly, I don't want to say it's an easy sale, but what it is, it's an investment. And it's funny cause I just sent an email to somebody who people say, you're never going to get him. And he's one of the premier car dealerships in our community. And I sit on a board with him and it's like I'm not going away, John. So the reality is, let's have a conversation because I know you want to invest in people. You have the fortitude to do this and not take it personally when someone says no. [00:23:15] Karen Marsdale: And again, I don't take it personally and I just move on to the next. And then I go back to that person. And yeah, I might not be making sense but again it's how successful people have to do this. It just doesn't come easily. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Next week, we'll continue the conversation with Karen. In that conversation you'll learn about the comprehensive programs at Hannah's Hope that empower women to achieve independent living, Karen's innovative leadership and mentorship strategies, and how Karen and her co-director are making the model of co-director work in an amazing way. I hope you will join us for that conversation. Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com   Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

Changing the face of animal welfare. Karen Marsdale talks to Lindsay and Lauren about the mission of Humane PA and how they are providing education and resources to help break down the reasons most pets are brought to shelter.

Karen Marsdale speaks to Peggy Kershner, Co-Executive Director Berks Connections Pretrial Services. Did you know that there are 10,000 individuals in county or state parole supervision? We help these individuals to have second chances and provide productive opportunities for them to succeed. Re-entry work with an emphasis on workforce development is where a majority of our resources are spent. Life Improvement Business is what we do! (thank you to Eric Savage for the permission to use your tag line!).

"Learning and listening to our customers are the keys to success!" - Sarah Hunter-Lascoskie, Director of Communications and Marketing, GRCA. Karen Marsdale talks to GRCA's Sarah about her journey with GRCA. Sarah talks about how important it is to keep the recipe of communication clean and simple - if you know your audience and listen to your audience - then trust the process!

Ensuring that businesses have all they need to thrive and grow! Karen Marsdale talks to Mark Dolinski about his role in helping GRCA grow your business by growing your talent. It's all about transforming your people to be the best they can be!

Ginelle speaks to Karen Marsdale about the opportunities for employment and second chances that Abraxas Academy provides to people looking for work. Ginelle also talks about the company's culture which is a magnet for talent attraction!

Bringing all of our assets together! One vision and common ground moving forward. Feeling the pride of where we live! These are the topics of conversation that Aaron Gantz discusses with Karen Marsdale - it's all about great opportunities!

Workforce Development and Business English instruction programs are the topics of conversation in today's episode. Ryan Breisch talks to Karen Marsdale about how the Literacy Council of Reading-Berks is keeping up with the changing workforce in order to help people be successful!

Junior League Celebrates the 95th Anniversary! Karen Marsdale, speaks to Alyssa Conahan, Special Events Committee Co-Chair about the Junior League of Reading's 95th anniversary and their continued work around women building better communities!

Listen as Andrea Genduso speaks to Karen Marsdale about her desire to create a unique space where couples can create and express their love for each other in a very unique way. Andrea has carefully renovated and restored the Bern Farm to keep the Quintessential Berks County Heritage. It has been a labor of love!

#ChamberSpotlight feature this week Tom Rhoads. Tom talks to Karen Marsdale staff of the Greater Reading Chamber Alliance, about the importance of people's training and how their passion turns into their careers. #YourVoiceYourStory

Karen Marsdale interviews Jobany Bedoya, Small Business Coordinator for the Greater Reading Chamber Alliance, they discuss the invaluable support that they are providing to the Small Business and Entrepreneurs including the Spanish Community. Watch or Listen to this great interview and learn how you can take advantage of this free support that GRCA is providing.

Santo Marabella talks to Karen Marsdale from the Greater Reading Chamber Alliance about his journey in Berks County and how connecting with the community is always a cycle and how to reinvent yourself to keep it fresh. Marabellas is an excellent instrument to the Arts and Film community in Berks County.

Carlytta Camper owner of Oasis Dog Spa & Shoppe Talks to Karen Marsdale from Greater Reading Chamber Alliance About creating a pampering experience for the other member of your family…the ones with four legs!

Rachael Romig is the new Special Program Coordinator and Advertising for the Greater Reading Chamber Alliance. "The most important thing is to get involved. You have the chance to make a difference, one person at a time." Rachael mention in this interview with Karen Marsdale.

Jeremy Freymoyer, co-founder of Encrypted Escape, talks to Karen Marsdale about the first immersive, themed experience for group activities in West Reading. Karen has some fun with this interview and it's not to be missed!

Karen Marsdale talks to Father and Daughter duo, Dave and Sarah Phillips, of Irish Creek Excavating, Inc., about their history, their journey and their growth! "I like doing a lot of different things and I like diversification!" - Dave Phillips.

Kashif Reyes, owner of the Reading Wizards, speaks with GRCA’s Karen Marsdale about making dreams come true in a basketball town.

Steve Gieringer, executive director of Neighborhood Housing Services of Greater Berks Inc., talks to GRCA’s Karen Marsdale about 40 years of milestones.

Craig’s passion for technology and experience have all combined to help build Laughing Rock Technology to the company it is today. Built on a strong culture of service and commitment to excellence, Laughing Rock provides info technology, telecommunications, web services and managed services. Learn more in this interview with Karen Marsdale, Senior VP of Programs at GRCA.

Dennis is an Investment Adviser Representative for Peak Brokerage Services and has more than 25 years of experience. His passion for strategic investment planning fuels his desire to help his clients lead the life they want to lead. He speaks with Karen Marsdale, Senior VP of Programs at GRCA, about this and more.

Tom founded his company in 1975. Today, they provide a wide range of general contracting and commercial construction services for small, mid-sized, large businesses and institutions in most of Eastern Pennsylvania. Karen Marsdale, Senior VP of Programs at GRCA, sits down with him to learn more.

Mark’s experience spans more than 29 years and includes C-suite positions, as well as owning his own business. The goal of his company, Flywheel Coaching, is to unlock individual and organizational potential by helping business leaders build high performing organizations. Learn more about what he can do for your business from this chat with Karen Marsdale, Senior VP of Programs at Greater Reading Chamber Alliance.

RER Energy is a regional leader in renewable energy, educating their clients on the best ways to save costs and become more efficient and renewable! Tune into the interview with Karen Marsdale, Chamber President and RER President, Jim Kurtz.

Easter Seals of Eastern PA has been helping individuals with disabilities and special needs for over 100 years!! Nancy Knoebel explains their large scope of work in this interview with Karen Marsdale, Chamber President.

Committed to customer service and compassion, Imperial Monuments is a full-service memorial company led by Tracy Christmann and Amy Stadelmeyer. Check the interview out here with Chamber President, Karen Marsdale.

Karen Marsdale sits down with Meggan Kerber and Kirsten Keim-Shendge of Bethany Children’s Home to learn about their work, their events and how inspired they are doing the work that they do!

Wanda Torres of WANT Consulting has a vast background from ISO standards to Six Sigma Tools – hear more about her business in recent interview with Chamber President, Karen Marsdale!

The tables are turned and Dan is interviewed by the CEO of the Greater Reading Chamber of Commerce! They talk all things BIG, BIG Vision that is!

The tables are turned and Dan is interviewed by the CEO of the Greater Reading Chamber of Commerce! They talk all things BIG, BIG Vision that is!

1847 Financial provides its clients with a personalized roadmap to navigate the complexities of investing, all while keeping a focus on community and goodwill! It’s kind of “their thing!” Hear more with Mike Hartman and Karen Marsdale in this week’s Member Spotlight!

SCORE was very excited to speak with Karen Marsdale from the Greater Reading Chamber & Economic Development Corporation. Did you know that SCORE has been a partner of the Greater Reading Chamber & Economic Development Corporation for over 20 years? In this show, Karen shares her support and gratitude for Berks best kept secret in the business community. We hear some great stories from Karen’s personal experience with SCORE along with its volunteers. “Economic vibrancy is the beginning of all things positive in communities” states Karen. She feels the collaboration with SCORE helps the business community become a better place. Tune in to our show “SCORE, The Best Kept Secret” and listen to this great interview with Karen Marsdale.

Discovered in 1871, Crystal Cave has a long-standing history in Berks County. Hear more from Kathryn Campbell in this intriguing interview with Chamber President, Karen Marsdale.

Angie and Chris Farrell have grown Sweet Ride Ice Cream from an ice cream bike, to a mobile ice cream parlor, to recently opening a storefront on Penn Avenue! Hear more in the interview with Karen Marsdale, Chamber CEO/President.

Dan Clouser talks to Karen Marsdale about her decision to not only support but serve on the Board of Big Vision Foundation!

Dan Clouser talks to Karen Marsdale about her decision to not only support but serve on the Board of Big Vision Foundation!